Skip to content

Orrin Woodward on LIFE

September 19, 2011

Update October 8, 2011: Orrin Woodward talks about the history and genesis of TEAM LIFE here. The comments from 10/8/2011 onward reflect this new post.

For your viewing pleasure, a video of Orrin Woodward talking about LIFE, filmed a few weeks ago:

Some choice quotes from the video:

We’re the new educational system for America… that’s affordable for the masses. (9:25)

Will they offer tapes on how to be a doctor? Lawyer? Engineer?

When we launch this baby, we’re going to go to a million people so quick. (11:55)

At another function Orrin also put a timetable of five years for LIFE to get to a million. Five years does not sound quick to me, so which will it be?

At the 13:30 mark, Orrin gives the kicker (paraphrased):

There’s gonna be people that are making 100 million dollars… that were making 100 million dollars, say, uh, we only made 2 million this year. yeah, cause that stinking life thing! They changed the deal on us! Everybody’s going over there to LIFE. They’re living intentionally for excellence. Well, how are we gonna do it? You know what, they’ll never be able to duplicate us. They’ll never… I’ll tell you why. I’ll tell you why they’ll never do it. Because nobody… all the network… we’re just like so and so or better. Oh yeah, who else has Chris Brady? Oh yeah, you’re just like LIFE, only better? Do you have Tim Marks on your System? Oh no… Do you have George Guzzardo? I don’t think so? Do you have Tim Lewis? Do you have Claude Hamilton? Do they have you?

A recent comment from @dextersbeard posited that the real product wasn’t the tools, it was the leaders:

this post is proof positive of one of the basic flaws of “LIFE” – the products in this MLM are the leaders. Nothing against George, or making a bad financial decision..you take the good with the bad. the business is only as good as the weakest promoted leader. instead of some bad press effecting the local leader- it effects the entire organization and the “products” of the MLM. DO you really want to build a business hoping that a PC member doesnt quit? file Bankruptcy? cheat on their spouse? beat their wife? etc. This is not saying it would happen..the point is the liability is on the guy who hasnt made it yet. what do you do with your finance packs when the leader on the cd put themselves in a financial mess? what do you do with your relationship packs when a leader gets a divorce? you cant switch from promoting system to promoting product…they are the product.

Orrin is banking on the continued edification of leaders like Tim Marks, Chris Brady, Bill Lewis, Dan Hawkins, Claude Hamilton, and George Guzzardo. As I’ve pointed out with Guzzardo’s property foreclosure and Orrin’s anonymous blogging as Qrush is that these leaders don’t necessarily practice what they preach.

Do you want to give money month-in, month-out to people who don’t do themselves what they tell you to do? What else could they be hiding from you?

Finally, the best parts of the video were the reaction shots of the crowd. Who in of the crowd was buying into what Orrin was saying? Who wasn’t? How many of those people will be in the stands 6 months from now. A year from now? 5 years from now?


1 Not much mention of MonaVie in the video? Guess the purple juice concentrate just isn’t that important anymore to TEAM LIFE?

About these ads
93 Comments leave one →
  1. Speak Your Truth permalink
    September 19, 2011 5:51 pm

    Dellusional…but hoping someone… will ‘buy it’, so the money can continue to flow from those unsuspecting souls being brainwashed in the crowd..right into the pockets of Qrush.

    And dextersbeard has it…dead on…they ‘sell’ their fake selves by the extremely fake and continuous edification; to build the blind trust…so the poor blinded souls continue to follow…until…they cannot deny their loses any longer…and eventually figure out (after they are broke)… that the reason they are broke… and the only reason the PC can continue to flaunt their ‘riches’… is simply because those in the audience are now… broke…

    What a vicious cycle of lies and how damaging.. to humanity.

    The ‘New Educational System for America?’….. lol…Sounds to me like a L.Ron Hubbard speach…definitely thoughts of granduer..

    Thank… God!; We are gone!!!!

  2. webelieved permalink
    September 19, 2011 9:49 pm

    THESE PEOPLE ARE NOT QUALIFIED IN ANY WAY TO COUNSEL ANYONE, on any topic! They are not trained proffesionally and they have a double adgenda to make money off of you so their counsel could not always be what is best for you, it will be what is best for them.. It is sad that now anyone can call themselves anything these days. Team is a CULT using thought reform, deception, love bombing and information control to manipulate their followers…….their system of cd’s and seminars brainwashes people. Check out freedomofmind.com
    This is my opinion and lengthy experience with Team and Orrin Woodward and co.

  3. No Team For Me permalink
    September 20, 2011 1:56 am

    Are there some states in which they could get in trouble from practicing without a license regarding the financial and family counseling advice?

  4. Burned Out With MV permalink
    September 20, 2011 4:09 am

    The old saying comes to mind “you get what you pay for”, free financial, legal, family and spiritual advice is worth just that …….. nothing.

    Ooops, my bad they do charge quite a fee for tall his free advice with no acountablility when it does not pan out and flip it where it’s “YOUR FAULT” for being a failure. :-(

  5. Speak Your Truth permalink
    September 20, 2011 7:22 am

    Burned Out~ Great points..LOL

    We all know the ‘true & real’ things in life are free…like; Good quality Time spent with your spouse, children, family, and ‘true friendships’ that are reciprocated, talking a walk in the park, enjoying a good book, gardening, prayer, serving at church or charity, just opening the door for someone, or other kind gestures, truly caring about others.. etc; without EVER expecting anything in return for some hidden agenda..If you give expecting something ‘in return’ then it isn’t… ‘True giving’….The Best things in Life are Free.

    We ALL know they never ‘give’ anything without expecting and it isn’t just something..It is Your entire life’s devotion and finances.. There is No Such Thing as true or Free giving… in their world.

    Something they don’t do when the ‘building the business’ because there is always a double agenda… and anyone who has been around Orrin knows this to be true. He HAS to listen to himself talk, feeding his out of line ego… it is extremely annoying, if you have experienced this…every flippin time you are around him. Their questions are always loaded and their minds are always pre-occupied with the business; no matter what they are doing. I do not recall one time that we just relaxed; without the agenda of the business being talked about or brought up..That is NOT ‘true or real friendships’. The system of cult indoctrination; creates prejudices in so many ways and their expectations or unqualified counseling is.. Not Free.

    I agree with Webelieved… what they ‘call’ friendships & ‘free’ counseling is nothing more than a service; to meet their agenda. That’s some brutal reality they can chew on…

    I found it very telling and yet sad (for the newly blinded) that I did not recognize 1 leader in the crowd in the video. What happened to all the leaders and PP that always sat in the front row? Oh that is right, they all escaped the (lie), Orrin- Team for unethical, immoral, and illegal reasons. Oh Btw…. it is very obvious to me….Orrin is NOT convicted and doesn’t even believe what he is saying, anyone can see (that has seen him speak a million times) that he is NOT ‘in the zone’… the lack of confidence, and body language. It is too funny, in my opinion.. it almost seems he is begging for someone to believe him.

  6. September 20, 2011 8:34 am

    So he starts off by talking about Ray Kroc and Sam Walton, and then compares TEAM people to them. I notice that he uses people scepticism of franchising back in the day to compare the resistance people may get when dealing with TEAM as if this somehow legitimizes TEAM as a business.

    He talks about how a few guys make Leadership and make a lot of money from it but the other people don’t, funny since that’s pretty much what he’s doing.

    This is so stupid. Anything he’s talking about you could know by reading “Grinding It Out” or “Made In America”. It doesn’t make TEAM a good or even viable idea.

    I love his feigned “doing it for the people” thoughts and how he indirectly compares himself to George Washington. This would be the new American Educational system? I guess we can continue enjoying our strong Canadian dollar because the US economy will get worse if this moron is at the helm of the S.S. USA.

    This idiot also makes the inference that if you aren’t on board with this, you just don’t understand it. You know what I don’t understand? Why people continue to listen to this guy. He’s been talking about these big waves for like over a decade now!

    A million people within 5 years indeed.

    Maybe a million people who are horrible at math and with incredibly bad self esteem.

  7. Hershall permalink
    September 20, 2011 10:15 am

    Every word of it is musical to someone who wants something but doesn’t know where to look. But most will leave such a meeting and wonder what it was really about. They feel better about themselves. They feel more positive about the world. They have hope. The person who invited them doesn’t have answers for their questions. They get an audio and a book and a time to get back together. They’re told to come to the next event to learn more. They either have to buy a ticket or qualify for the event through a certain amount of work, result or accumulation of points.
    The burden grows heavier But the music keeps playing. “Maybe just one more month”…
    People are coming. But without the purple juice… well the juice can make music sound better. It’s great for the auditory nerves!

  8. Speak Your Truth permalink
    September 20, 2011 11:25 am

    Hershall~

    You have just described in part the ‘process'; to leave and ‘wonder’ what it was all about and ‘feel’ better about themselves, the world and have hope…..and that is the introduction to the slow but steady process of a false hope, damaging of humanity, and a financial draining scheme…
    also the start of the ‘process’ of… a destructive cult.

  9. Not signed up yet permalink
    September 20, 2011 11:26 am

    The joker once said “if you are good at something, never do it for free”

    I actually like that quote but the only thing TEAM LIFE is good at is deception &manipulation. And you get to pay for the privelege of being manipulated!

    Sounds great to me.

    . As far as failure goes..failure is not a bad thing if you learn from it. Look at Babe Ruth Thomas Edison and Abe Lincoln. All of these men failed and failed multiple time before they hit their objectives.

  10. Lyk permalink
    September 20, 2011 1:50 pm

    This is awesome!! I concur. Lol was when anyone qualified to teach anything? We all have flaws… nuff said!

  11. Speak Your Truth permalink
    September 20, 2011 7:03 pm

    Well, lyk (and we know you are).. you are under the influence of the team, you have bought into their rhetoric of what ‘qualified’ to teach means. In the real world, people don’t look for false teachers. Who do you know from ‘outside’ of the Team that goes to the PC or anyone else for that matter (unless they have a real proffession, then I doubt they would do it for free) to get their ‘qualified teaching’ in all 8 F’s?… Again, along with whatever ‘product they attatch themselves to it is all ‘internal consumption’ including the teaching…lol

    Here is a double message for ya; that you will get from the team ‘teaching':

    “You wouldn’t go to a doctor who dropped out of college..would you?” Answer NO..but yet you would go to anyone and everyone in your upline with or without real certified qualifications; they tell you and everyone else to go to their ‘movin on’ upline who is out there in the trenches..lol…and get your advice/teaching on finances, faith, family, etc..

    I would say with the exception of a few qualified to tell their ‘stories & strategies’ on what they did; you might consider them qualified to ‘teach’ you on how to ‘strategically default’ on a 1.3 million dollar piece of dirt & rocks or/and a few are qualified on how to ‘teach’ you how to go bankrupt. But in the real world…..no one else will be calling them for that advice..

    But according to their own ‘teaching’ (with the doctor example) you best go find yourself a certified and qualified doctor, financial advisor, Pastor, Family Counselor etc…or your ‘movin on’ upline…double message. See how that would confuse…but then to ‘confuse’ IS the intention…its comes natural when the goal is always to serve the agenda.

    Language is a beautiful thing…just read Hershall’s post..very poetic.. I bet he could make Hilter sound like a Saint with just using the English language…good job…Hershall.. you ought to pursue writting. Problem is doesn’t matter how you ‘persuade’.. package it….that doesn’t mean it is the reality…only the gullible and uniformed will fall for it…but again that is the goal.

  12. No Team For Me permalink
    September 20, 2011 7:55 pm

    He has become the new Dexter. Totally self-absorbed. Did he actually just compare himself to George Washington??? And this “Top Ten Guru” Talk… it was his people who did all the voting for a group noone else has heard of.

    And the ones who make the big money (Zig Ziglar, John Maxwell, etc) actually had something of substance in their material besides having 50% of all material promoting the rest of their material.

    And their millions was earned by providing this service to millions of people who spent a few hundred bucks a year vs TEAM/Life who earns it by gauging 10,000 or so people to spend their whole life savings on material that does not help better them in other areas of life because they are so indoctrinated that they are cut off from other areas of life.

  13. webelieved permalink
    September 20, 2011 8:23 pm

    No Team For Me- Great Post and so true! People are dellusional thinking Team is fixing areas in their lives when the are ignoring most areas of their life if they are leaders building it. All the leaders know deep down they are neglecting most areas in their lives, real friends, family, relationships, church, etc if they are going Power Player. When it all comes crashing down, this is devastating to realize.

  14. Not signed up yet permalink
    September 20, 2011 9:00 pm

    Lyk, tru we all all have flaws. The only advice I have heard form TEAM in my area is “stick ina Cd” or “Get to the meeting on Saturday”

    I was told that TEAM had marketing experts that could help me with my business…which I thought was cool, only to find out that that was not true.

    Also it seems that thy still preach the 8 F’s but are distancing themselves form Monavie…so that makes 7 Fs.

  15. webelieved permalink
    September 20, 2011 9:50 pm

    Not signed up Yet- Wow marketing experts? I found once I was away from team all I had learned was to sell and manipulate, talking like a team cd, repeating the same crap. Didn’t learn much about marketing, the real world or how to run a legitimate business….. I learned how to “SELL” and how to manipulate people by reading some books otherwise I learned how to buy more cd’s and books and had my self taken away by their indoctrination.
    A friend took a leadership and business classes at a real college, for a real education that counts for something and couldn’t believe that the information she learned was so much better and much more then she learned from Team, much cheaper too. She felt she had been had. I feel the same way, wish I would’ve spent all that time and money on a REAL EDUCATION!

  16. Dorothy permalink
    September 20, 2011 11:14 pm

    This commenter requested that her comments be removed from this site.

  17. webelieved permalink
    September 21, 2011 4:46 am

    Wanted to note for the new guy, the reason Orrin changed the name to LIFE, is it is hard to find them and their critics in a goole search. He seems to change it a lot. He used to be in Quixtar/Amway then changed the name from TOD, (Team of Destiny)………. to Team, (together everyone acheives more)………. to a Leadership business to……….. Team Monavie,…………. and now to LIFE. or team life/life team (living intentionally for excellence).
    Amazing……… I read cults do the same thing.
    I also read Cult leaders have dellusions of grandeur. Hmm interesting
    ….. New education system of America?……..
    LOL Thanks for the laughs!!!

  18. Speak Your Truth permalink
    September 21, 2011 7:18 am

    “Lets just say hypothetically, “WHAT IF” 2 of the Top 15 Leadership Guru’s (?) get together, combined with 5 or 6 leadership guru’s..Tim Marks is in the middle of writting his first book..that I can’t wait to read ( this automatically makes him a ‘guru’?) “WHAT IF” we created a leadership field..the leadership field is where a few people make a lot of money and everyone else get’s to learn from them..”WHAT IF” we married the best of leadership..instead of a few guys making..there is 1 guy who made a hundred billion and rest made ‘Nothing!’ Instead of 1 guy making a 100 billion..”WHAT IF” we produced a billion ‘new industry’ and we split a billion dollars together while we learn (make the billion $ off of the) leadership..while we win on everything…”WHAT IF” we revolutionize the Networking Industry..with the leadership field,combine those things together, MAKE YOU GUYS MILLIONAIRES..instead of having a few billionaires..”WHAT IF” we all become MILLIONAIRES…Now is anybody in?

    Whooooo!!!

    He described what he has been doing all along where a few made ALL the money and rest made NOTHING.

    There is A LOT of ..WHAT IF’s…..(6 in that short time). What a bunch of hypothetical hype……Nothing has changed…

    Well…’what if’ the atrittion rate (won’t change),.. ‘what if’ nothing will change, it will just be ‘packaged’ to sound different,…’what if’…people find out the truth about them and who they really are….’what if’…people figure out they will still be the only ones making the millions…’what if’….. they get shut down for being an internal consumption illegal pyramid scheme…….’what if’…they get audited and get investigated by the IRS,FTC,AG,FBI….’what if’ people figure out they DON’T OWN their own business….’What IF’ people figure out they will be voted out and will no longer get paid for all the work they did…..’what if’…people find out they are taking their financial advice from people who filed bankruptcy…’what if’…people find out they are greedy and are conning them…’what if’ they find out Orrin is Qrush’……..

    ‘What if’ they read Amthrax site and find the rest of the story! :)

  19. Not signed up yet permalink
    September 21, 2011 10:23 am

    What if TEAM LIFE just gave me simple honest answers to what I want to know?

  20. Brent Hansen permalink
    September 21, 2011 7:11 pm

    Boom Chicka Wow Wow! Coming Soon to Amthrax, a sneak preview of the Life Compensation Plan. For those of you who want to see and learn the rest of the story, stay tuned!

  21. webelieved permalink
    September 21, 2011 7:19 pm

    Brent maybe you could get a copy of the director’s contract. That would be interesting. Or any Team contract for that matter. LOL

  22. webelieved permalink
    September 21, 2011 7:21 pm

    Not signed up- Simple and honest answers don’t belong in the same sentence as Team….. Sorry…

  23. Speak Your Truth permalink
    September 21, 2011 8:45 pm

    LOL….Looking forward to seeing the rest of the story, and so others will be informed so they won’t lose any more money and can run as fast as they can away from the money sucking scam!

  24. finally permalink
    September 22, 2011 4:24 pm

    Dear Brent, a compensation plan, well ain’t that just rich…………Monavie had a compensation plan too, did you ever see that. They also did not publish one for at least a year and half………….a compensation plan means zip zero nada…….it is numbers that if you happen to hit you might get what is on the paper. Let me ask you this, are they gonna stipulate in the comp plan how that if for any reason at all once you might happen to get to level to get a check that the PC can vote you out of profit sharing for any reason at all. Ask one of Tim Marks former RT’s what he did to get voted out of profit sharing. He was in Tim’s will as guardian of Tim’s children if anything happened to him and Amy and wham………….A text telling him he no longer had an income from the team he and his wife built, not Tim, not Orrin, Not Chris……….They took away his living just like that. Orrin and The rest of the PC represent everything they rip on corporate America for………….they stole the guy’s team away from him and gave it to someone that has their head so far up Tim’s backside he would have to open his shirt so they could brush their teeth………….Remember the Q lawsuit how they claimed VICTIM,. HA What a joke……….
    Do us all a favor act as cocky with your up line as you do on hear and ask for his 1099’s on his team income. Remember all the claims they make are illegal in MLM’s . Have them prove what has happened in Team not what they claim will happen in the future.

    This is how bad it is, Orrin ran a promotion for T50’s to come on his boat. They actually had to go Power player………..What a joke, a T50 should be going pp if he slept the whole month………..PP for a trip on the boat are you kidding me……….Orrin said he would never lower the bar in his leaders………..well if you are T50 and cant go pp you are sad………..the team talk mentioned the people that made it. I laughed my butt off. Since I have left I have become friends with team people on all the leaders teams. The stories are amazing and quite sad. There is a supposed T50 that qualified for the boat. I was told he was given one whole pet with 50 tickets in it. I was shown his team and the team he inherited. The guy was on a cd with tim on mentorship. I do not how the guy could call him self a leader and accept charity and then accept a trip on a boat when he did not do the work in the team he was given to get it to 50 tix. Are you kidding me???? We have similar stories in our Team………but this one cracked me up cuz the guy is on a cd acting like he is a leader.
    Leaders don’t take charity they earn their keep. It’s all smoke and mirrors……………..

  25. webelieved permalink
    September 22, 2011 4:51 pm

    Finally- great comments. I have seen exactly the same thing! HA! What clowns they are. Do they really think people are not going to find this out? They are dellusional! Wish I could tell that leader how sorry I am and they are not alone. Do they know about amthrax’s site?.

  26. webelieved permalink
    September 22, 2011 5:01 pm

    They must really be hurting running those kinds of promotions! LOL It is humorous to me, lowered the bar. And secretly getting 50 tickets given to you, wow that is a whole lot of someone elses hard earned work! They discust me! I guess just following his upline fakeness……
    Wasn’t it reported Tim bought a platnumship in Quixtar for diamond ? Wish someone could verify on paper if Tim did this.. Is there a contract on the purchase?
    And Tim shame on you for taking your leaders income! I actually thought you had a little integrity, guess not.
    Leaders gave up their jobs and became dependent on Team for their whole life + fear indoctrination= people who will lie steal and cheat to keep their incomes! So sad!
    All my experience and opinions with Team.

  27. Speak Your Truth permalink
    September 22, 2011 9:26 pm

    Finally~

    You are right when the IDS ‘hours worked’ is ‘gathered’ by asking the question of the MV distributors.. How many hours do you work your business…lol? How many do you think answer that honestly…ha…especially when they know this is data for the IDS that they will be showing to their new prospects….I don’t believe, any of it is accurate.

    I agree with you it means nothing… it is designed to be complex and who do you know that even pays attention to it other than those who use it as a ‘business tool’ to entice others with the income that they flash infront of a the ‘new’ prospect for a few seconds..

    I cannot stop laughing at your last paragraph….how** Desperate** they have become and what lengths (lowing the bar) they will go to pretend…. people earned it and are growing…It seems that is the only thing they can do is go lower the bar and hand out free teams. Then have them speak like they earned it….quite the unspotless character they have.
    Thee…Great Deceivers…is their strong point.

    I too feel for the RT, my heart goes out to them…been there and done that ourselves…

  28. Brent Hansen permalink
    September 22, 2011 9:47 pm

    @finally, are you delusional? What do you mean by this “act as cocky with your upline as you do on here” ???? What the hell are you talking about “ask for his 1099s” from Team income. I AM NOT PART OF TEAM. Have you read any of my posts? I am actually considering writing a critical analysis of the new comp plan.

    Someone throw me a bone here….I am lost as to the lesson @finally is trying to teach me here. @Speak, please translate for me, I understand you much better. Thanks!

  29. Brent Hansen permalink
    September 22, 2011 9:52 pm

    @Speak, l enjoy your comments about the IDS and the comp plan, have you taken the time to read through Michael’s analysis? It is very articulate and accurate. Thought I would post it here for those who haven’t read it.

  30. Speak Your Truth permalink
    September 22, 2011 10:40 pm

    Brent~

    I have read some of Michael’s facebook..from the last link you put up but did not see the analysis you are refering to here, I will check it out though. Thanks.

    There is one thing I would like to ask though, is please give some grace to those on here…I cannot answer for finally comments, but will say this.. all of us have been ‘burnt beyond recognition’… So to speak.. we stick together and have each others backs and I believe you know this but just want you to understand that many of us have our guards up…because we are forced to…due to the constant battles and the damage.

    With all due respect.. I do have to admit you have a strong personality (I won’t use the rhetoric on you..lol) and I wasn’t sure how to take you at first. I wasn’t sure if you were on the Team either, and is why I questioned you at first; because of your connection to the PC.

    I have since see where you are going because I have followed your posts, so if you could be patient and give others some more time. And I have to agree I hope you give it to them…lol
    I have read your’s and Mike’s comments on Juicescam..Lazyman..and am glad you guys are there too.

    I also know that you have provided some very good information and the last thing any of us need.. is to be divided on why we were drawn here in the first place…’a house divided against itself will fall’…I know we all may have slighty different reasons and have all flown off the handle and misunderstood but we are not enemies …well I have, flown off the handle lol….but we will not turn on each other here because of what we have been through… we are all we got. We understand each other because we have walked in each others shoes.

    I think we could agree that there are millions who have been and are being deceived and hurt and I believe we all have compassion for those and want justice or we would have just walked away; for ourselves and those who we know will be burnt and is why to some degree I believe we have all come together. I am not sure where it is all going but I believe it will lead to something good.

    I can honestly say if it wasn’t for this forum.. Amthrax provides (thanks)…I am not sure I would be where I am through this vicious journey of destruction, or as I say survived the ‘illusion from hell’.

    So, I hope you understand where I am coming from and continue to share and give some grace…Thanks a bunch! Don’t forget… We are in this together. :)

  31. webelieved permalink
    September 23, 2011 4:52 am

    Brent- Finally probably didn’t realize you are a critic. Just your last statement without reading your other posts, could be taken as you are a Team supporter. Just sayin…….
    I know you are not. We have all been beat down by the Team machine, and are a bit on the defense. Finally is a good guy, on our side and I am sure when he sees his mistake he will apoligize.
    I cannot wait for your critical analysis of the Team comp plan. I hope it comes soon. I agree with Speak, we are in this together.
    I am suprised a PC would be talking with you knowing you are on this site?
    Isn’t Brent your real name?

  32. Speak Your Truth permalink
    September 23, 2011 9:08 am

    Brent~

    I felt something I wrote read wrong and wanted to clarify this..when I said…”And I have to agree I hope you give it to them”…I was refering to your critical anaylsis of Team comp plan.

    Your strength is obviously in the numbers..and we really appreciate someone who would have the patience and understanding for that. All of our strength here is also in ‘numbers’ only physical group numbers and that is why we will all stick together. There is ‘strength in numbers’ in both ways! One in facts and one in sheer numbers.

    I agree with Webelieved and do find it interesting that the PC would even be talking with you at all…knowing that you are a ‘critical’…. I am sure that is an interesting story and would would hope..sometime..you would share it..lol.. :)

    Finally also brought up a good point and then shared the example of the RT who ‘was voted out of profit-sharing.. in a flash and left to take care of his family.. how?… It is WORSE than Corp. American because you can’t even draw unemployment to stay alive until you can find something…. for their thieving ways….his question is very valid…does it disclose on the comp. plan that they can be ‘voted out’….for ANY reason along with their ‘best pay-plan’ bs?

    I have the same strong sentiments and I am sure it is obvious..about their undisclosed scumy, greedy ways as Finally does…quite frankly it is criminal to me how they stand on a stage and shout to the world they ‘have the best pay-plan in the industry’.. ‘numerous lawyers have given it a thumbs up’.. (implying they are on the up & up..legit and not an illegal pyramid scheme..sure)… but wait…where is their end users…they shout they are out for YOUR future and families best interest..we are going to ‘create millionaires’… implying You will become one.. all you have to do is follow what we did..downright blatant lies…’this is the last thing you will have to get good at’…’put ALL your eggs in the Team (thieving) basket’…. and then top it off with the nice bitter rotten cherry; with the abusing of faith and Christianity… to lure, solitify, and coerce people. And finally the biggets LIE of all; you are going to be financally free and independant with our passive, residual, onging, willable, b-type, business for the rest of your lives…All of it LIES.

    But they never disclose that when you do everything they say and build the numbers, then turn around and steal it…and ‘vote you out’…. the very income you busted your butt, and did do everything they did (except get the back door deals) actually did the work…listening to the bullsh*t.. they indoctrinated with.. Believing it is nothing but the truth..so help us God.
    It is criminal.

    They know if they shouted from stage WE CAN, WE DO, and WE WILL VOTE YOU OUT when we need a pay raise and we want to give someone else your efforts for building your teams… why don’t they disclose this…every single time they talk about their ‘income claims’ and as much as they have touted all the other (lies) rhetoric…And named the leaders they stole from..in their previous illegal ‘pay-plan’ and their ‘new’ contract… ‘voted you out’…they wouldn’t have a single soul left buying their LIES and coercive luring… Hmmm….Don’t you think that is probably the MOST important piece of information that the ‘consumer’ NEEDS and wants to know before they go spend all those years of effort, time, and money to have it stolen?

    No…Not from their ‘perspective’…the more uniformed the better… how could they continue to rake in their ill-gotten gains then…supply their favorites with someone else’s efforts…nor would they be able to control and blind side the people when they decide to strip them of their hard earned income….leaving them with nothing…overnight..to feed their families?

    I bet you can’t tell this is a ‘hot spot’…so needless to say we will rejoice when you can inform everyone…right down to the brand new prospect with your critical anaylsis of their cleverly designed scam.. to keep themselves (the PC) rich off the backs of….insert quaranteed loses here… best ever pyramid scheme…’pay-plan’. We are looking forward to your findings!

  33. humiliated permalink
    September 23, 2011 9:30 am

    Brent, I know that your last comment about the LIFE comp. plan was steeped in sarcasm and I had a giggle about it. Unfortunately, if one wasn’t following your posts or this thread, it may have been confusing as to which side of the fence you are on.

    Just a little misunderstanding folks! I think we can safely say that Brent is definitely NOT a supporter of TEAM or MLM.

    I too am enjoying the contributions that you and Mike are making to this and the Juice Scam site.

    Now back to our regularly scheduled programming people! Group hug!

  34. Brent Hansen permalink
    September 23, 2011 12:22 pm

    Yep, Brent is the real name, I have nothing to hide. We will see how long the flow of information continues. Up until now, certain people think I am recruitable so the flow continues. I am sure my name has been noticed now and I could possibly be cut off from further information, but honestly, I already have what I needed, ironically in pictures from someones residence in Florida.

    In my opinion, nothing reveals a person/organizations motives more clearly than a compensation plan. Once you know mathematics, it reveals character, integrity and motive. All of the other crap is purely peripheral to me because I can base my entire opinion/judgment on the numbers alone. Does that sound reasonable?

    I wasn’t being proud when I wrote before that I could take the same payout amount, and structure and rewrite their comp plan to not only help the little guy, but blow the top end off as well. I have broken down over 100 comp plans in the last 24 months, and once you understand the numbers and math the flaws and purpose becomes very apparent. Trust me, it is possible to make networking a viable model, its just that greed prevents them from doing it right.

  35. Brent Hansen permalink
    September 23, 2011 12:58 pm

    Speak, I totally understand where all of you are coming from. I spent 12 years with my upline/team, and was later screwed out of everything thanks to a “diamond” who decided to raid our team when he left Orrin for another deal. That team had taken us years to build, and dozens of wonderful relationships were destroyed. But now in hindsight, everything that happened was a blessing in disguise. You guys need to move past the emotion and understand that knowing the truth is worth more than any amount of money/compensation you could have ever received from Team. Thankfully, their dishonest business practices have set you all free. Now what will you do with the knowlege you have gained?

    I empathize with you all of you and know exactly how you feel. You see, I wore out the cars chasing the ever elusive “dream”, I have flown around the world, rode in the motorcoaches, sat in the mansions, had the vacations, made the promotions, and mentored with the “best”. I have been fortunate to see behind the scenes, sit behind the stage, and see things as they really are. I know and understand each and every comment, and emotion that each one of you share here. So trust me, I understand. If I may, I will share one piece of knowledge with you that has come to me only at a great price.

    After 16 years and 3 different companies I have discovered one thing, THEY ARE ALL THE SAME! So in other words, the things that Team has done to you, are being done to every unsuspecting person in almost every company. Orrin and company are no exception to the rule, so do not think for a minute that he is different from anywhere/anyone else. As a matter of fact, my good friend called me the other day to tell me his downline had disappeared from a company he was part of . You ask, how could that happen? It is simple, the master distributor needed that part of the team to be somewhere else. THIS CRAP HAPPENS EVERY DAY!

    I have been fortunate to be able to move past the emotion that all of this has invoked, and see things purely from a business/mathematical standpoint. My amigo Michael has discovered a term that describes what happens to people who follow these leaders blindly. I will not reveal it because I believe he may do a piece in the near future on it, and I do not want to steal his thunder. When he first told me about it, I was shocked as I realized that not only myself, but all of you as well have been victims of our own minds. In order to overcome this, I believe you all have to get outside of the “team” box, and come to grips that all of this is what it is. It is not just team, it is the industry.

  36. webelieved permalink
    September 23, 2011 2:38 pm

    Brent- Thanks for your comments. I want to say I agree with all you say, it seems almost all of them are the same. I admit I followed blindly……we were indoctrinated, I believe. Have you read up on cults? T use team uses the same techniques to take away your ability to critically think as all the other major cults. I personally repeat my story in most threads so if someone new comes here they won’t miss the truth about what can happen on Team Lief and they can see the other side of the Team LIFE story. The one their leaders are hiding.
    I am not sure the best way to move forward. I really want all of the truth to come out.
    I feel the mlm industry is corrupt and there are NO protections for the distributors. Only protection for the companies and the big dogs, not the guys who do the work. There are so many lies, deceptions etc and the companies will not police the distributors especially the big dogs because they bring them too much money.
    It is all a big lie!
    The only ones that might be somewhat legitimate sell directly to customers, do not base their model on recruiting,…….Avon, Tastefully Simple, etc. Although there is no territory protections, what do you think about those companies?
    At least they actually sell a product to customers. Unlike what we were taught to do.
    I hope your PC keeps talking, although there are only like what 6? I am sure they are having meeting after meeting about this site. lol :)

  37. finally permalink
    September 23, 2011 4:02 pm

    Sorry Brent, misunderstood that is all. I was combining two post’s that I read. I am sure you know how it is when you have had a long and tiring day and things get a little confusing at times that is all. I apologize for the misunderstanding on my part. I re read the post and it was a brain fart on my part. OOOOOPs

    I appreciate your post, just had you confused with another

  38. outside looking in permalink
    September 24, 2011 7:50 am

    So my question is, is there no hope. Is there anyone working to fix the industry, or should the whole thing just be thrown out? And if the industry has some merit, does change come from within or from an outside source? Everyone wants to point fingers at the problems, but is anyone working towards a solution?

  39. Vogel permalink
    September 24, 2011 11:29 am

    II really don’t think there is any honest hope at all for MLM. It’s a ridiculously outdated system of distribution. Look at the 2 biggest trends in retail in the last decade or so — big box stores (e.g., Wal-Mart) and online mega-sellers (e.g., Amazon). Both of these are the antithesis of the antiquated mom-and-pop face-to-face sales method upon which MLM relies.

    Companies that are genuinely interested in maximizing profits from retail sales would never use the MLM model. Why would they bother divvying up profits with thousands of unnecessary low-level salespeople when they can use a more efficient consolidated model and keep more of the profit (as do retailers like Wal-Mart and Amazon)? Face-to-face sales (e.g. the Avon lady) may have had some value back in the days when people lived scattered about the countryside on farms, and when transportation and communication infrastructure were lacking. But now with efficient nationwide transportation, urban population concentration, and the advent of the internet, the MLM model is at best a quaint anachronism (think Pony Express vs. FedEx).

    To compensate for a lack of distribution efficiency (i.e. the required pay out of all those low-level salespeople), MLMs must grossly overcharge for their products, and that makes it next to impossible to compete in the retail marketplace. The difficulty that MLM distributors face competing in the retail space lends itself well to the support systems that MLMs put in place (tools and training). This is no accident; it’s how MLMs rake in the bucks — the 2 factors go hand in hand. The high cost of the product makes the distributor discount look more attractive, and to get that discount, people have to sign up as distributors; then they are told that if they work the business they can (a) get their product for free and (b) go a step further and get mega-wealthy. But of course, the reality is that the business is not as easy as people are led to believe in the initial sales pitch, so the next step for the new recruit is to sink money into “training” and sales tools (and that’s the true end game of most MLMs). The high cost of the product and the incredible difficulty that one faces in trying to make a profit from the MLM business drives the whole enterprise.

    Flip the scenario and imagine an MLM product that costs only $2. It could be a great product with potentially high demand, capable of competing in the open retail market. But there would be less incentive to sign up as a distributor because the distributor’s discount would not be a sufficient motivator for a $2 product. And if the product were easy to sell, there would be no need for distributors to invest in training and tools, nor would the company need legions of distributors to sell the product.

    So in essence these scams are reverse engineered in the following manner: Let’s start an MLM built around a product that: (1) we will charge a steep price for ($50 or more per month); (2) there will be little retail demand for, and; (3) is extremely difficult-to-sell. Then we can collect (a) distributor signup fees (b) massive price markup from the few people that buy the product, and (c) a primary revenue stream from the sale of distributor support materials and tchotkes.

    The MLM model is not intended primarily as a means of selling retail products to consumers but rather a means of selling a “business opportunity”; therefore, the products are always an afterthought — window dressing and nothing more.

    The propaganda that MLM execs try to sell us on is that MLM is the retail method of the future; this is patently absurd. It’s like saying that the pony express is the delivery system of the future. MLM pitchmen also claim that the model makes sense because it eliminates advertising costs. This too is absurd because (a) MLM doesn’t eliminate advertising costs; the companies still spend a fair amount on advertising but it’s always low grade (and always deceptive) (b) word-of-mouth advertising by MLM distributors is remarkably ineffective. One gets what they pay for in the advertising world. Smart companies buy print ads, TV spots, internet ads, etc. MLMs on the other hand essentially hire incompetent people to do their advertising through ineffective means; which would obviously make no sense if the company’s goal were to maximize sales rather than the influx and retention of distributors. Retail advertising is abundant because it’s effective, but this concept is completely ignored in the fairy tale world of MLM.

    Sorry if this strayed off topic, but it seems like a very worthwhile area for discussion.

  40. outside looking in permalink
    September 24, 2011 1:03 pm

    Thank you Vogel, I appreciate your thoughts. Very well thought out and an interesting perspective. I’ve often wondered about the model itself and it’s place in our current times.

  41. humiliated permalink
    September 24, 2011 1:35 pm

    Vogel, I am so tired of you mincing your words…tell us how you REALLY feel about MLM!! LOL! Awesome analysis. This really is a “reverse business” in so many ways (except for the people at the top, of course). Putting aside the dreadful tactics used to keep people roped in (you are a loser if you quit, you are giving up on your downline, you are letting God down, you will never achieve your dreams) from a purely analytical/business perspective, I don’t see how people would touch this business with a ten foot pole. Hey, maybe I should start selling those for $99 a piece..anyone interested? SYT? Finally? Vogel? Webelieved? Amthrax? Brent? get in on the ground floor? No? Losers.

    What I think needs some “airtime” on TV is a warning ad regarding these companies from the FTC as they appear to be becoming somewhat of an epidemic. I recently posted an ad on the Lazyman site regarding false advertising that they have here in Canada, it is very effective. I just don’t understand why they can’t warn people in a more “global” way. From a financial perspective, I bet we would see a lot less bankruptcies and/or people having to get some sort of financial assistance from the gov’t as result of their MLM losses and this could only help the economy. I guess there would be legal issues but instead of attacking the issues from the inside out by investigating and litigating, it would be far more effective to stop the bleed before it begins, from the outside in.

    Or, better yet, outlaw MLM like they have in Germany. Looks like MonaVIe had to pull out of there as they have deemed it to be an illegal business.

    I know that I am being naive as there are probably lobbyists that would block it or a million other roadblocks, but a girl can dream.

    Holy crap batman, totally off topic Amthrax. Forgive me.

  42. billy permalink
    September 24, 2011 1:37 pm

    @Vogel
    Actually, I work with plenty of clients in my occupation (advertising sales) who wish they could pay for word-of-mouth advertising vs conventional models of advertising. Whether the product is overpriced is irrelevant. If consumers buy, it’s not overpriced. And if the buyer trusts the person “selling” the product and have a want or need for it, they’ll buy.
    I personally have seen more benefits from the TEAM system than the case of juice I bought. Disclaimer: I’m not building the business, but rather purchase the CDs and books for personal reasons. A friend of mine tried recruiting me, but I had no interest at the time.

    Person-to-person sales and recruiting has its place as they’re introducing products to market without major media exposure, which I think is brilliant. My friends who are involved seem to be gaining real business experience. My firm works with clients who have used traditional advertising methods for decades and ther customers seem to expect that model to be used. If these MLM companies used traditional ads or infomercials or something, they probably wouldn’t sell the volume they do.

    For the record, I have friends who work in real estate and insurance sales and they depend on word-of-mouth advertising. They can even recruit a fellow salesman and earn a cut of their commissions. I think we’re going to see more and more MLM-type businesses because it will weed out the ineffective and reward those who perform.

    Also, my sales manager is also subscribing to the TEAM’s system and is working with top sales exects to mimic [customize] it for our company.
    My friend’s business is growing more and more. I don’t think your website is working.

  43. Brent Hansen permalink
    September 24, 2011 1:41 pm

    Vogel, your thought process is very accurate, and wording very eloquent. You just about summed up the entire industry in several paragraphs. The products and distribution are the problem that is evident, and the allocation of profit dollars is what really undermines the credibility of the entire model. Trust me, we could sit down and play with the mathematics of any compensation plan and create a model for the masses. One of the biggest problems though is that corporations love to hide compensation dollars within their comp plan. The promise of a future payout is money in the bank. So although they may claim to allocate 50% of their volume to the field, what is in writing and is actually payed out is two different things. Structure has more to do with profitability for new people than anything else. I have always believed that a plan is only as good as its ability to lead new people into profit.

    This is a whole different topic that perhaps Amthrax would create a new area for us, we could all work together and throw up some comp plan analysis and show them company by company. The mathematics will become very apparent once a person learns the general pattern and process employed by the companies. They are all very similar with varying twists on the plan, and to the average person, those twists don’t mean anything.

  44. outside looking in permalink
    September 24, 2011 2:54 pm

    Mr. Hansen, you indicated that you could “create a model for the masses” which leads me to believe that the industry could be made viable.

  45. Brent Hansen permalink
    September 24, 2011 4:48 pm

    Outside, I believe so, but it would take a total paradigm shift. Because the industry as-is, is not viable. Case in point, do you happen to know the profit margin for Walmart, Coca Cola, or any of the other well known names out there? Why should a MLM operate any differently than any other company? Especially since the supposed compensation dollars are actually “advertising” dollars that they would be paying elsewhere anyway. This would be a great topic for another thread if there is enough interest.

  46. Vogel permalink
    September 24, 2011 10:00 pm

    Billy: “Actually, I work with plenty of clients in my occupation (advertising sales) who wish they could pay for word-of-mouth advertising vs conventional models of advertising.”

    You’re obfuscating there a bit Billy. You can’t really buy word-of-mouth advertising because the moment you try it becomes a paid endorsement; something entirely different. Real word-of-mouth advertising of the kind you’re alluding to occurs when someone refers a friend to a product or service. It’s effective mainly when there is a bond of trust and the referring party has nothing to gain. Interestingly, Monavie (like many MLMs) exploits its distributors to leverage the trust they have built in their personal relationships, quite often with devastating consequences because the trust is squandered on a pitiful ripoff scam-juice MLM. And lest we not forget that Monavie’s particular word-of-mouth campaign is based on illegal medical claims and misleading earnings claims, both of which have generated a backlash of negative word-of-mouth advertising. Cuts both ways right?

    Aside from all that, how high is consumer awareness of Monavie as a result of the word-of mouth method? Compare that with awareness of boutique juice companies like Odwalla or Sambazon, which both use “conventional” retail marketing. Monavie gets slaughtered. Monavie is allegedly a billion dollar company and yet, relatively speaking, very few people even know that the product exists. So how effective a strategy can it be for Monavie to rely on word-of-mouth advertising? So effective that it results in fruit juice that retails for $50 (a non-competitive price) and which most people have never heard of. A single TV commercial or well placed internet or syndicated print media ad could reach as many people as Monavie’s distributor army reaches in a year.

    Clearly, I’m not saying that word-of-mouth recommendations aren’t valuable for sales; it’s just not a reliable a priori marketing strategy; unless of course the goal is to disseminate illegal miracle cure snakeoil claims, as in Monavie’s case. When one uses deceptive and/or illegal marketing as their primary strategy, then conventional advertising isn’t an option. That’s where MLM comes in.

    So Billy, is Monavie’s advertising anything like the kind your clients allegedly wish they could pay for? Illegal,misleading, unreliable, and ineffective?

    Billy: “Whether the product is overpriced is irrelevant. If consumers buy, it’s not overpriced.”

    That’s silly. Value matters and its often quantifiable. Consumers are very much motivated by value and product cost; hence, again, the success of big box stores (e.g., Wal-Mart), online retailers (e.g., Amazon), and discount airline tickets (e.g., Expedia, Kayak) – they all offer significantly lower prices (better value) than most of their competitors. Monavie provides nothing that can be obtained from a retail juice that sells for one-twentieth the price of Monavie. And unlike the examples above, Monavie is not convenient. Putting a bottle of $3 or $4 juice in a shopping cart at the supermarket is convenient. Auto-shipping cases of $50 a bottle grape juice by UPS is, comparatively, idiotic from the retail consumer’s perspective.

    Billy: “My friends who are involved seem to be gaining real business experience.”

    “Seem” being the operative word. They aren’t acquiring any real practical business knowledge that couldn’t basically be gleaned from working at a minimum wage job or skimming through a library copy of an “Idiot’s Guide to Business”. The money that one wastes on the Monavie biz could otherwise be spent on real education, like a B.A. at a decent college. Try putting Monavie sales rep on your resume and see how far that gets you with your next prospective employer.

    Billy: “Also, my sales manager is also subscribing to the TEAM’s system and is working with top sales exects to mimic [customize] it for our company.”

    ROFLMFAO! Good luck with that. Can you tell us the name of the company so that we can make sure to avoid it in the future, or would it be too embarrassing to mention it? So much for word-of-mouth eh? Sometimes it can bit you in the arse.

    Apologies to Amthrax for straying off-topic. Move us to a new thread perhaps?

  47. billy permalink
    September 25, 2011 12:17 am

    You hate the world, Vogel.
    Next topic Amthrax. These are fun reads.

    I did some digging. How about a discussion about the MonaVie business advisory board?
    Or how Asia is kicking butt right now in MonaVie land?
    Or how they look like they’re still in Germany vs erronious statement by site contributor?
    Or how TEAM’s plan for MonaVie is to create income in LIFE and use it to buy juice.
    If I think of others, I’ll chime in.
    Also, I spoke with my friend (TEAM business builder) tonight who said he often sends people to this site in order to prepare for objections. They signed up three people tonight. On to a million?

  48. Vogel permalink
    September 25, 2011 9:11 am

    Billy: “Also, my sales manager is also subscribing to the TEAM’s system and is working with top sales exects to mimic [customize] it for our company.”

    Vogel: “Can you tell us the name of the company so that we can make sure to avoid it in the future, or would it be too embarrassing to mention it?”

    Billy: “You hate the world, Vogel. Next topic.”

    So, in other words, you are too embarrassed to even mention the name of the company. You’re bragging about using TEAMs system but the reality is that it is a stigma.

    Your argument in favor of TEAM has crumbled into dust.

  49. outsider permalink
    September 25, 2011 10:20 am

    Just heard of bit of news that fits in with the topic of advertising . . . (well, almost – it’s re: mv, not Team)

    So, get this. The upline of my mv relatives has been “firing up” the downline recently with alleged promises from mv corporate that great news is coming: Corporate is planning to pay for a mainstream advertising campaign to benefit all its distributors . . . Reportedly, the gen’l feeling among the ranks is excitement, gratitude and even relief . . . !

    Say what?!

    How is it that these distributors conveniently forget that the recruitment scam they fell for (and have been parroting religiously up until 5 minutes ago!) includes the line that – thanks to the brilliance of networking! – no $ need be “wasted” on traditional advertising and all that delicious cash can go straight down the line? . . . sigh . . .

    So, has anyone else heard this rumor being pumped through the mv lines?
    Whether the rumor is true or not, does it say anything about what’s going on in mv?
    [Clearly it says something about what the victims are willing to swallow, I guess.]
    Is this a rumor that goes around from time to time, or is it noteworthy to be hearing this particular bit of doublespeak?

  50. outsider permalink
    September 25, 2011 10:41 am

    P.S.
    Billy said: “You hate the world, Vogel.”

    Have you read any of this site? Vogel makes it beyond clear that he hates lies, scams and the conmen that perpetrate them. I don’t see any comment on the rest of the world. What are you talkin’ about?

  51. outsider permalink
    September 25, 2011 10:52 am

    Oh, really sad thought: If a person’s “world” has collapsed to the point that it revolves around lies, scams and conmen . . . then it appears to him that Vogel hates the world.

    Yeah, I see now. Just took me a minute.

  52. humiliated permalink
    September 25, 2011 12:59 pm

    I apologize, it appears that I may have spoken too hastily. I deduced from this SUmmary of World Wide Sales released through the Fraud Files blog that Germany was no longer involved.

    Summary of Worldwide Sales

    Listed from Largest to Smallest

    52 week avg. Last 4 Week avg. Change

    US $9,759,373 $7,085,100 -27.4%
    JP $1,167,971 $1,495,816 28.1%
    CA $979,415 $944,195 -3.6%
    AU $287,164 $223,989 -22.0%
    SG $223,692 $164,528 -26.4%
    MX $145,551 $125,850 -13.5%
    PL $98,068 $98,310 0.2%
    BR $56,114 $83,680 49.1%
    IL $41,526 $71,165 71.4%
    UK $67,034 $64,812 -3.3%
    FR $20,797 $32,540 56.5%
    NZ $34,118 $19,394 -43.2%
    HK $8,367 $8,367 0.0%

    TOTAL $12,757,845 $10,413,560 -18.4%

    You can get this at http://www.sequenceinc.com/fraudfiles/2010/05/an-anonymous-source-reveals-numbers-for-monavie/

    You can see that Germany is not listed here.

    It simply appears that there is extremely little growth or movement with Germany, particularly when you look at the Monavieonthemove website. The whole thing is just very odd. I can’t even find a way to sign up in Germany (yet I can in most other countries). Can someone who is computer savvy let me know if I am doing something wrong?

    Outsider, the kick ass advertising your friend is referring to is a flyer that they stuck in the USA today. You know, the kind everyone uses at the bottom of their bird or gerbil cage? It also appears that they were giving a free product trial and are alleging that it is the most sought after free trial ever, based on that ad. This is starting to sound eerily like that company that was selling the acai pills.

    I agree that there is a great degree of irony here Outsider.

    Billy, the fact that MonaVie is pushing their product in third world countries (mostly because the market here is tanking), where people barely make enough money to feed their families, is nothing to boast about. Please read what Brent Hansen or Mike Collins have to say about this.

  53. Brent Hansen permalink
    September 25, 2011 5:12 pm

    Never fear Billy, you could probably have great success launching either a juice business or a leadership business in India. India is all the talk now for all of the great international builders of Monavie. Why not? After all only 42% of the people in India make less than $1.25 per day, that still leaves 58% above the global poverty level to which they can market to. And I am sure the average person in India will partner with friends and family, and they will all chip in to get one case of juice and do tasting parties by smelling the product in the bottle. Or they could combine their meager wages and sign up on leadership to learn how to become great leaders in their community, church, and country. Give me a break!

    Lets get real here, international expansion for some of these companies is all about fleecing the country for every damn dollar they can get. Just ask Philip Loh from Malaysia, he saw first hand the devastation caused by mv in Malaysia, Thailand, and Singapore. These greedy bastards will stop at nothing to get a buck in their pockets, and that includes hyping up the impoverished, and taking them to the cleaners. All the while touting how they are bringing opportunity, hope, and freedom to the people of that country.

    Great business model, lets go rip off poor people, take food money from their families, and promise them the moon. All the while not telling them that less than .05% of all distributors can even cover the cost of autoship. Lets wave a picture of a black mercedes in front of their faces and let them kiss our diamond rings. Talk about UGLY AMERICAN, India is about to find out the real meaning.

  54. Vogel permalink
    September 25, 2011 7:04 pm

    They’ll also be encouraged to give up whatever money they spend on antibiotics and malaria meds, but they’ll be told it’s OK because Monavie will make meds unnecessary. And why worry about clean drinking water when they can slake their thirst with stupidly expensive 2-ounce shots of Monavie?

    Seriously though, I agree with you 100%…it’s disgusting.

  55. Speak Your Truth permalink
    September 27, 2011 6:36 am

    It is abundantly clear..just not for some who obviously.. it doesn’t matter how clear it is.. they can’t see past of what they Want to believe. Very interesting read.

    Thank goodness Billy put his ‘disclaimer’ in there otherwise I might have thought he was a ‘paid for’.. advertiser.. or a MV rep. LOL

  56. John permalink
    October 7, 2011 3:00 pm

    That video of Orrinl Woodward makes me puke.

  57. Vogel permalink
    October 7, 2011 11:55 pm

    Truly! But he’s awfully good at drawing circles on a white board isn’t he?

  58. October 8, 2011 3:06 pm

    Am, I didn’t know the best place to put this, and if you want to move it somewhere else, that’s cool. But I’d love to get you guys’ analysis of Orrin’s latest blog about everything that “has happened” to Team. From reading much on here lately, it almost seems some of his blog is aimed at the kind of people that have settled here. (Anyhow, I’m not blog saavy and don’t know how to put his blog in that smaller box for easier reading). Here it is in full:

    [Editor's note: Orrin's original post can be found here on his blog.]

    “Today, I would like to share a little of the TEAM’s history as background for our future in LIFE. The TEAM, a leadership community, formed in early 1999 as a group committed to building teams offline and driving traffic online for volume discounts. At a time when the rest of our partnered company’s North American English speaking businesses was dropping backwards at close to 50%, the TEAM grew from 200 people attending events to over 10,000 in just over five years. How did this happen? Through leadership development, systematic thinking, and plenty of hard work of the TEAM leaders.

    However, all was not well within the business partnership. By 2004, it became clear that the business model was (in my opinion) destined to mediocrity thanks to the higher priced products and low compensation rewards for the effort extended. Even so, being a leader and not a habitual quitter, I joined the distributor board hoping to drive change from within the company through sharing my ideas to improve. With a three year term on the board, I felt confident that this would be accomplished for the benefit of all parties. I believe in win-win and know that when distributors win, the company will win.

    In the fall of 2007, after numerous attempts at change with little to no results, the TEAM associated board leaders felt it fruitless to continue in what they perceived was a broken business model. Sadly, the company had written new rules into their contract that forbid people the right to freely leave the company if not satisfied. In other words, you were free to build a business, but not free to leave it with your personal friends for two years! Regretfully for all parties, the final meeting did not resolve the issues, resulting in multiple legal disputes in an effort to prove their respective positions.

    Even after several years of legal harangues, both sides remained immovable on their principles and positions. The TEAM refusing to believe people could be called business owners without the freedom to choose what company to work with and the company refusing to surrender their contractual concerns even after the TEAM leaders fulfilled their six months of inactivity. With tens of millions of dollars and nearly three years wastefully spent on both sides, ultimately a confidential settlement was reached ending the madness for all involved. The financial pain hurt everyone, but especially the TEAM leaders who had just reached financial independence. Their sacrifice was above and beyond the normal call of duty, with many leaders losing 2/3 of their monthly incomes, some even more. Only people who truly believed in the mission of TEAM would subject themselves to this level of stress and sacrifice.

    In the meantime, after sitting out the required (and disputed) non-compete period, the leaders of TEAM joined MonaVie. Thanks to the encouragement and support of Dallin Larsen, we had found a home to restore our communities. The PC leaders never gave up the dream to build our own business, but were thankful and grateful beyond words for the help and business acumen offered by the 2010 Ernst & Young entrepreneur of the year – Dallin Larsen. The TEAM quickly became one of the top organizations within MonaVie breaking multiple Black Diamonds and above within the first year. I personally reached Presidential Black Diamond and have re-qualified at that level every year since. In fact, today, the TEAM leaders, those who stayed the course, are making more money and reaching more people than at anytime previous time in our decade plus history. Like I have said repeatedly, those who stay will be champions.

    Through brainstorming with Dallin Larsen and Henry Marsh, wanting to find a way to build our destined business and still have a win-win business relationship, LIFE was conceptualized and founded. This allows TEAM to reach its million people while still rewarding MonaVie for their support during the trying times. The 8F’s – Faith, Family, Fitness, Finances, Friends, Freedom, Fun, and Following allow the TEAM community to reach people with truth in the eight areas and provide exclusive world-class MonaVie products when truth is needed in the Fitness category. Like I have said many times: I love win-win.

    The launch of life on November 1st, 2011 is fast approaching. I have no bitterness or resentment towards the people or events in the past. I wish everyone well regardless of whether they stayed with TEAM or not. I don’t claim to understand God’s plans for others’ lives, but I am responsible for my choices and actions before God. I personally am thankful for the invaluable lessons I was taught about missionaries (purpose-driven living) and mercenaries (profit-driven living). I believe that without this insight, the TEAM would not be in a position to reach 1 million people. Following the principles of servant-based leadership, Chris Brady, Tim Marks, and myself (along with many other TEAM leaders) do not regret the tens of millions of dollars personally spent to keep the vision of TEAM alive. Rather, we look at it as an investment in the future that we resolved to build together, dedicating our futures, finances, and sacred honor in order to fulfill the vision.

    To use an analogy, the TEAM has ran a marathon since 2007, toiling in the dark with little to encourage us to finish the race. However, against all odds and expectations, the TEAM leaders continued to place one foot in front of the other. It wasn’t even the dream that kept us going in the darkest of nights as much as the un-communicated belief that this was our destiny. Focusing on that still small voice inside of us, and thanks to God’s grace, we somehow eventually saw light at the end of the long dark tunnel.

    Just as in the modern day Olympics, where marathoners run 25 plus miles outside of the stadium, but finish the last mile within it; the team ran its 25 miles in darkness to reach the stadium. No matter how thankless the first 25 miles were, running without much fan support or any financial reward, we reached the stadium and are beginning the four laps under the big lights and the crowd’s applause.

    The TEAM, in other words, endured its 25 miles of pain for the opportunity to run its four victory laps inside the stadium. For those who suffered the pain over the last several years, I salute you. For those joining LIFE for its four victory laps, I welcome you. All that I humbly ask of the new members is for you to thank the leaders who persistently put one foot in front of the other on the faith in things unseen. For without them, the TEAM would not have reached our date with destiny. LIFE TEAM launches on November 1, 2011, what part did you play in the TEAM’s history? Better yet, what part will you plan in LIFE’s future? Sincerely, Orrin Woodward”

    What say you guys/gals?

    [Editor's note: placed in a blockquote for easier reading.]

  59. October 8, 2011 3:07 pm

    It was posted this morning at 10am on the Team website.

  60. John permalink
    October 8, 2011 3:44 pm

    Mattjer22, what Orrin is so gifted at doing is wrting history in a way that is shamelessly self promoting. I have never heard or read anything from him that in some way he is not telling everyone how great and gifted he is. Recently he is on a kick to present himself as a patient, understanding, and compassionate person, who despite being hurt by former Team leaders, he is forgiving and holding no grudges. His posts on his blogs and fb tell another story. He makes threats, insults, and demeaning comments qutie often. If the wizzard of Oz has been reformed he has a lot of people he needs to call and make things right. Don’t hold your breath on that.

    Regarding this post by OW today. It is full of revisionist history once again. What he leaves out are the many facts and truths that reveal what he really is. What he does not say in this white washed article that makes him sound like a saint is that he broke the law, lost his law suits in arbitration and in a federal court, was fined 25 million dollars, had his side kick Tim Marks get fined for lying and hiding info from the court. And that he was the one who led the charge in the negative blogs to disparage the Amway busilness. He broke the law. He has continually been lying about that. Ow knows the truth. He knows that Monavie is also a broken business and is not any better than Amway. His new venture with Lief is an attempt to fix it. Will it work? I doubt it. But the truth is OW does not know how to tell the truth. He is a politician whose words cannot be trusted.

    O’s comments about the sacrifices and hardships of his Team leaders is disgusting since he is one by his foolish actions and behavior got them sued for starting annonymous blogs to attack Amway. This article is trypical OW baloney and garbage.

  61. Used to be "all-in" permalink
    October 8, 2011 7:32 pm

    The one thing I love about the master manipulator OW is that he is so predictable. His choices of blog posts and and the spin he gives on stage is almost always directly in response to what is bothering him the most at the moment. Amthax and the rest on this blog are clearly causing him a whole lot of concern, necessitating more half-truths or lies to keep people in and keep them from asking critical questions. As an example, one critical question could be: Orrin, you say that many leaders have lost 2/3 of their income due to the lawsuits and changes. Well last time I checked, it’s been almost 4 years since your non-competes with Amway expired. And you yourself wrote extensively about all of your benchmarking studies and how amazing the MV relationship was going to be – peanut butter and chocolate I believe you said. And just look at that IDS! Since Team leaders have been making money in MV and in Team profit sharing for 4 years now, income shouldn’t be a problem if you were being truthful with people. Besides, any court expenses would have been just that…EXPENSES. That has nothing to do with income! Why don’t you read the actual bankruptcy filings for your “big” leaders Hubers, Darkangelos and Cullins? Does the Hubers $600 unpaid credit card bill from Victoria’s Secret having something to do with the lawsuit? Or $1,000 to Dick’s Sporting Goods and $300 to Kohl’s in the case of the Darkangelos? What about the Darkangelos $750k mortage? Or their $250k in credit card debt? What about all of their car leases? How about the Cullin’s getting a $10,000 cash advance with no intent to pay back the loan and Chase suing them for it as the Cullins had the “intention and purposes of deceiving” them? That is solid financial mentorship going on in the Finances “F” for sure. Or is that “F” for failure? Maybe we should be calling them the 8 “Failures”? Orrin, why don’t you show me where in their bankruptcy filings they are paying their major expenses to law firms and courts? Hmmm….actually I can’t find any material expenses anywhere being paid to law firms for these three. Unless maybe it’s expenses incurred trying to defend themselves from the IRS due to 3 years of back taxes in the case of the Hubers?

    One of my favorite lines in his current posts is the following: “I have no bitterness or resentment towards the people or events in the past. I wish everyone well regardless of whether they stayed with TEAM or not. I don’t claim to understand God’s plans for others’ lives…” Unfortunately for him, those who have kept their critical thinking skills can see right through his bluff. This is a classic example of his words not matching his actions.

    If he has no bitterness or resentment towards others who have left, then why does he feel the need to continually cast them as quiters, mercenaries, negative, 95 percent thinkers, not tough enough, etc. etc….basically anything to degrade those who have lost their belief in the Team and its leaders? And if he has the gall to say that “I don’t claim to understand God’s plans for others’ lives” than why would he engage in all these continual attacks? And if this statement was true, than why was I shunned by many in my own team, as were many others on this blog? Isn’t that the result of the culture that OW and the PC have indoctinated into the Team? Orrin has set himself up for god-like edicification and near-worship (just read people’s comments on his public and private blogs) and have set up LIFE (lie-f) in such a way that the 8 F’s are supposedly all encompassing and if you quit now, it’s because you are money hungy and don’t understand the “greater purpose”. But on the other hand, if someone doesn’t join the Team, then most likely they didn’t see the bigger picture and don’t see what the Team is doing “changing lives”, aren’t really a winner, are satisfied with mediocrity, can’t understand cost versus investment, probably are wasting their lives watching TV, care more about their favorite sports team than their own life, aren’t willing to take risks and so on. What gives?

    And did anyone else think it sad that he again felt the need to praise himself by inserting a sentence about how he’s a Presidential Black Diamond and has qualified at that level every year since? Seriously, what bearing on his blog posting did this have on it? He could have taken out the sentence and it would have had the same exact meaning. Once you know the truth, his manipulations and spin become very blatant and obvious.

  62. John permalink
    October 8, 2011 8:27 pm

    Used to Be All In, youi have nailed it. OW is a master of spinning and manipulating. I will take him serioiusly when he starts to make things right with all the people he has hurt over the years. Those who follow him have no idea that they are being misled by a man who has made his mark and his money by selling himself and his dream. One day these people will wake up and discover what we already know.

  63. October 8, 2011 9:27 pm

    Of you guys who have been hurt by Orrin personally, how many people would you guesstimate have also been hurt by him and left? I see posts talking about leaders leaving and taking their whole teams with them, etc… I’m just wondering if there is even a way to know that answer.

  64. das permalink
    October 9, 2011 7:36 am

    John

    You said: “I will take him seriously when he starts to make things right with all the people he has hurt over the years.”

    RIGHT ON! Not just an apology, he needs to make an amends to all of us, which means to mend what he did. Give us back what you took from us Orrin! Oh…that’s right, you CAN”T!

    We all know that isn’t possible and besides he wouldn’t do it. He is driven by money no matter how he spins his web of lies when he states: “I personally am thankful for the invaluable lessons I was taught about missionaries (purpose-driven living) and mercenaries (profit-driven living).”

    SO, did Orrin and the TEAM change? LIEFer’s aren’t required to have a dream about the big houses, a new Mercedes Benz, a new motor coach etc.? Are we to believe that Tim Marks is now a servant leader?

    I’d like to see Orrin’s blog about how the TEAM is not a cult. Now that would be some good reading. LMAO! Not the simple answer either Orrin that “nobody ever does what I say”.

  65. outsider permalink
    October 9, 2011 9:45 am

    Does anyone know why the Woodwards are not listed as Black Diamonds (of any variety) on Monavie’s official list of success stories? Did I miss where they are listed? (And I don’t mean that rhetorically!)

    Don’t potential LIFErs want/need to see where he’s “personally reached Presidential Black Diamond and has re-qualified at that level every year since”?

    ? good grief.

  66. Speak Your Truth permalink
    October 9, 2011 10:30 am

    No surprise..one thing you can be certain of is there is definitely a ‘specific intent of this message’..Quite the chameleon he is.This may work for the stroking of the ego’s of what O thinks is a ‘champion’…quess you have to go bankrupt and broke, and all the other things ‘used to be all in’ mentioned to become a ‘champion’ ..problem for O is none of us give a rats arse what O thinks is a champion or anything else for that matter. He has NO influence in any of our lives and thousands and thousands of others. Does he seriously think anyone believes him when he says he isn’t holding any resentment or grude…lhol Perhaps he should make his actions congurent with his phony words.

    But oh how sweet the sympathy for those who went bankrupt and those who foolishly stayed, who apparently are the only ones who sacrificed BECAUSE they stayed. But hey they proved they could blindly follow no matter what the cost..by their ‘loyalty’ and by doing all those unethical, immoral, and some illegal things he dictated…since everyone of those (mis)leaders thrive on waiting for O to stoke their ego…like little kids waiting for a piece of candy…to sad.. they have all became dependent on his praise to make themselves ‘feel’ better. Most crave his praise…and want to make him proud..very disturbing… das had it right maybe he ought to do a ‘study’ and plagerize the cult experts…as they do with all their ‘leadership’.

    Or Perhaps it could have something to do with Troy’s investigation and O needs to ‘appear’ to Troy as John mentioned as some phony, patient, compassionate.blah be de blah and/or is it used as a little damage control and planting the seeds of explaining away of the ‘history’ and recent post on Amthrax.. about the bankruptcies and Guzzardo deliberate default. Pehaps his ‘leaders’ are feeling a little discouraged because they have been found out and O the great recognizes this and needed to tell them just how marvelous they are for becoming missionaries when they have a buisness that is built on mercenaries…

    C’mon Orrin is this the new twist of indoctrination..is this what you call.. bettering the system…you KNOW that if you repeat something long enough whether truth or lie people will begin to believe it…that is how thought reform works and you are fully aware…that is what you are counting on..isn’t it? Yep.. You wonder why people don’t have an ounce of respect for you. You are a flat out mercenary according to your defintion..or did you decide to not pay yourself anymore? Perhaps you should prove that to all those followers you expect to be in it for the ’cause’. You are really working the ’cause’ , screwing with people’s minds so that others won’t ask or expect to be paid…isn’t that right..blind siding all those who you EXPECT to pay and pay and pay and pay and pay! You want them to ignore the facts and that you just captured them with the Plan to make money and become financial free.. always coming up with those double messages to keep those minds captive..because the TRUTH came out? No one see’s you as some noble missionary (except those you have used mind control on). Do you disclose HOW MUCH you rake in as a ‘missionary’? I recently read where the team raked in 150 MILLION dollars a year..care to verify how much during the ‘history’ and those 25 laps of darkness and what YOU made during that time while others at a minimum made less that 2/3? Didn’t think so.

    Those on here and many thousands of others certaintly aren’t falling for those carefully selected words and smooth explanation of the ‘history’ of the Team..people know you are a fraud and phony. And for those blind followers who will only hang on to your every word it may be effective temporarily and…. they will continue to wait… for a kernal of praise…that you use to manipulate…it is quite amazing how slick you make the ‘lawsuits’ out as if was just a little part of ‘history’. NIce try.

    Interesting he didn’t mention the 4 or 5 years prior when the real history began when he started in Amway and had it named the Team of Destiny. Why would he leave that part of ‘history’ out? Hmm…After all they are the one’s that bash the educational system as the dumbing down of America’s and leaving out the real history. Very telling.

    One last thing..the most monstrosity of all you state;

    “Following the principles of servant-based leadership, Chris Brady, Tim Marks, and myself (along with many other TEAM leaders) do not regret the tens of millions of dollars personally spent to keep the vision of TEAM alive.”

    Why don’t you explain where those ‘tens of millions of dollars’ that have been collected for 12 years really came from..and weren’t you stashing money in those special LLC’s for that specific special occasion that you knew for years you were preparing for? That now somehow become Your heroic ‘story’ and miraculously and abruptly showed up because YOU ‘tried’ for 3 years to ‘change’ things and just couldn’t come to an agreement? Did it just ‘dawn’ on you that the prices were ‘hopeless’ after what more than 12 years?..Did you once share that with all those thousands and thousands you KNEW were paying for those ‘hopeless overpriced products’ involved in an ‘illegal pyramid scheme’ … according to you..draining their bank accounts for a supposed only 3 years? Didn’t you want them to believe they were in the ‘best business bar none’… Yes you did. How much of that ‘hopelessly overpriced products’ did you lose on for only 3 years and stayed in because you aren’t a ‘habitual quitter’ but a ‘leader’..what a joke..you didn’t quit because you need the tool scam for your lifestyle…but you expected everyone else to continue to overspend on those same products for years? As a matter of fact you had a ‘required’ 150pv to even qualify for PP..a forced spending of those ‘hopelessly overpriced products’.
    Oh how much you care.

    Perhaps you would like to tell ALL those losers, quitters, internet flamers, haters, and pieces of crap…Thanks… for allowing you to continue to decieve them all so they would continue to overspend (donate to your ’cause’) and for all their drained 401k’s, drained bank accounts, bankruptcies, divorices, lost friendships, and years of their ‘servant leadership’ and donations, along with all those other leaders who contributed that you cleverly soliciated and those you stole their incomes from.

    Maybe it is just me but it Doesn’t at all sound like it was your own Personal income after all that paid for anything! Why don’t you share the income YOU were PAYING Yourself by your very own created secret formula..

    Why the ‘need’ for the ‘legal fund’ and WHO got that money if YOU used YOUR OWN personal income.. weren’t people ‘donating’ for over a year to..on an automatic…’autoship’ to the legal funds? And those who were only making at a minimum of 2/3 at the time of the lawsuits…now why would that be…you weren’t using the Profit-sharing for YOUR lawsuits were you.. because you stated it was YOUR Presonal income…Did you change the ‘secret formula’ of profit-sharing at anytime to compensate for the funds of those lawsuits? Because something just don’t add up there..knowing what we all know who were in profit-sharing.

    You have a lot more splaining to do O.. to try and convince Anyone you are some noble missionary. You have a whole wake of destruction in the ‘history’ of people that see right through your smooth talkin Bs.

  67. brent hansen permalink
    October 9, 2011 11:56 am

    Scathing Speak, you should be a writer..hahaha…..OUCH! Feel lucky, the scumbags at Legacy implemented not a 150 PV requirement to be a “real” leader, but a 300 PV requirement, and we were stupid enough to promote it…

    So the cost of business was as follows.

    Leadership Subscription $50-$60 a month.
    Book of the Month $15-$20 a month
    Misc. Tools (optional of course) $100-$250 a month
    Business Seminars for 2 plus meals and gas $100-$150 a month
    Weekly Open Meeting for 2 plus gas $150-$200 a month

    300 PV club (for the “real” leaders) $650-$800 a month

    Total cost of Legacy Scam per month: $1065 – $1480 per month

    Plus 3 majors a year with Travel/Hotel/Meals for 2 $4,000-$6000 per year

    Yearly Cost of Habit: $16,780.00 – $23,760.00

    Of course that was for someone who was “all in”

    All of that for a .05% mathematical chance of earning enough to cover your autoship in Monavie, and an even smaller chance of being able to break even in A/Q. Its laughable now how all of us could have been so naive.

    Now you can all join LIFE where there is an actual mathematical ratio of 1 in 21 from the network, yes 1 in 21 can pay for their subscription. And an opportunity to see 97% of all compensation dollars being distributed to a mere 4.25% of the organization.

    Top Heavy? No, not this group, they really have all of your best interests at heart.

  68. Speak Your Truth permalink
    October 9, 2011 1:26 pm

    Ok Brent we need your help here this quote from O on the new LIEf program. Help us out and let us know if you can, if they are THEE lowest cost provider (of the highest quality leadership material in the marketplace, period..we know that is just hype) but is it the ‘lowest cost provider’?…No ifs, ands, or buts, about it?

    Thanks for sharing that! So what you are saying is… for every ONE person who what will break even on just their monthly minimal pkg ($50)… you know the.. ‘minimum’.. those who are not ‘all in’.. just playing..treatin it as a hobby and aren’t ‘serious’ about making money and the other.. 20 you brought in to make $$..have to ( lose) pay and (lose some more) and (lose and lose) etc.. is this correct and does this make their ‘pay plan’.. the BEST PAY PLAN in the industry and what is legacies in comparison?

    Here is Orrin’s quote; (Gotta love the last paragraph :) )

    “Simply stated, LIFE will be the lowest cost provider of the highest quality leadership material in the marketplace, period. No ifs, ands, or buts, about it. New members of LIFE can get started own their own business for under $150 which includes the first leadership materials. Through purchasing as little as $50 per month for personal development, he is fully qualified for bonuses. Instead of the $200, $300, sometimes as high as $600 a month in purchases, we are bringing Network Marketing to the people, at a price that they can afford. On top of this, if a member or even a customer, refers three other people as customers, his personal leadership subscription will be FREE!”

    “After LIFE launches, Network Marketing will be affordable for everyone. Where in the history of networking has a company launched with the proven top quality products, from recognized leaders in the field, all at the lowest price? Has this ever happened before? It will on November 1, 2011.” (seperated for easier reading)

    Oh and btw the ‘leaders’ had all the ‘pin-breakin’ cost of PV…LOL

  69. No Team For Me permalink
    October 9, 2011 2:41 pm

    After reading that latest blog post by Orrin, all I can say is “WOW!” Is he really that delusional? If he even remotely believes that crap, he needs some serious help!!!!

    After spending tens of millions???? Orrin – are you serious!!!!! What abou the tens of millions you raked in an scammed from people who were not in your original downline. A downline which once had 10,000 people attending seminars (according to you). But which now after 4 years has less than that even though you raided the downline of Wilson, Haugen, DiSalvatore, Harteis, Florence, Goetschel, Ledbetter, Libby, Effie Reid, Lance Smith, Mark & Tammy Crawford, and on and on. Take these people out and you I’d be suprised if you have more than 2 or 3,000 of your original downline attending majors.

    In other words, you raked in tens of millions of dollars from the people your raided, of which you did not build their groups – merely convinced them to buy your overpriced tools, then craftely found a way to remove the leaders from your secret pay system, thereby added tens of millions of dollars to YOUR bottom line.

    And that doesn’t count the Grangers, Morgans, and countless others, that you conveniently pushed aside to steel their tool income also.

    And to have the audacity to stand on stage and write on blogs about integrity!!!!! I can’t think of too many scammers who have less integrity. Orrin – I believe you are in a class with Bernie Madoff.

  70. October 9, 2011 5:07 pm

    No Team For Me,

    Nice post! I agree, Orrin is in the same realm as Bernie Madoff and the rest of the shysters out there. Let’s just pray that the Federal Trade Commission catches wind of the harm he is causing and that they investigate and shut his scam down.

    Forbes Magazine has two columnists, Emily Lambert and Klaus Kneale, who laid the ground work on Orrin by showing how he is truly operating a pyramid scheme. It would be great for them to re-visit this story and write a follow up piece!

    We all need to write to Emily here: elambert@forbes.com and encourage her to dive back into this and investigate a little further.

    Here is Emily’s bio/info page on Forbes: http://blogs.forbes.com/emilylambert/

  71. No Team For Me permalink
    October 9, 2011 8:13 pm

    Awesome Will!!!
    We all need to write Emily and update her on how bad Orrin really is. I don’t think she had any idea when the 1st story came out. I think the current truth would make the old story look positive compared to how bad he is now.

  72. brent hansen permalink
    October 9, 2011 9:03 pm

    Speak, lets get down to the bottom line. I will not attempt to discuss whether or not Life will provide the highest quality leadership material, or the best price point. All of that is totally subjective, and I believe that you share the same opinion as I on that matter. I remember how DoubleX was the “best” vitamin, (which I have now found one better for one tenth the price) with no stomachache as well. Monavie was the “best” juice on the market, and I am totally sure that Life will have the “best” leadership materials available. Please allow me to define “best” for you. Best means hyper-inflated and not justifiable, but if we spin it right, we can feel good about it. Enough said?

    Once you accept the fact that product based pyramid schemes are almost all internal consumption models, figuring out the scheme becomes quite easy. What? Internal consumption? That simply cannot be true! According to the DSA (and Dooly) most people join MLM to merely purchase the “best” products at a discount……..B.S.! Like I have said before, I have over 600 distributors in my MV downline as of several months ago, and 1 case of juice per month is being sold. If it is the “best” product, why are 599 people choosing not to purchase it every month. A friend of a friend has over 10,000 in her MV group, and she is down to 150 cases of juice a month. So that indicates that 1.5% of her group is in it for the juice. I would dare say that a lot of those will get off autoship once they figure out how to login and cancel it. Lets face the fact, THOSE INVOLVED ARE INVOLVED BECAUSE THEY WANT TO MAKE MONEY, THEY WANT A BUSINESS, THAT’S WHY THEY JOINED. With that thought in mind, lets base the rest of this post on the reality that most people want to join to own their own business, and turn a profit. OK?

    The Life compensation plan is a stairstep plan with the same design as the A/Q plan. It pays from 5% up to 50% of Business Volume, which is dollar to dollar, and a override bonus similiar to the 4% money in A/Q. There is also talk of cash awards blah blah blah…but for this discussion lets talk about the part of the plan where 99% of the people involved will earn from, which is the stairstep, with 5% at $150 volume, graduated up to 50% at $15,000 volume.

    A new trend in MLMs now is the 3 and its free program. Visalus started it, and now everyone else is jumping on the bandwagon. Think about it, it strengthens their legal foothold by focusing on the “retail” aspect a little bit more than they typically do. Even Monavie is announcing a 3 and its free coming right up. With Visalus it doesn’t matter whether your customers are purchasing retail or wholesale, either way you get and equivalent dollar value of product each month you have customers which are not participating in the compensation plan. In other words, if you have 3 customers at $100 (wholesale or retail), you can get $100 of product a month. Whatever average level those 3 are at you are given 1/3 of that volume. Visalus has done a great job with this, and they must, because the compensation plan from the network is still horrendous. Now, with Life, I was told that the 3 customers must be “retail” purchasers, meaning you must produce enough retail profits to cover you own basic $50 subscription. So, without anything in print, I am merely assuming that if you had 3 “retail” customers paying $70, that would give you $60 profit which is enough for your subscription plus tax and shipping. The three and its free programs are merely a way of trying to legitimize a product based pyramid scheme. It gives them a more legal foothold, just like the member/client volume reporting with A/Q did right? None of us ever cheated on the reporting, and I promise I had 100 pv of customers every month, wink, wink. Now this is all subjective, and the real question is, how many people do you think will stay on a subscription without the “dream” of their own business attached to it? Is the Life product “so good” that everyone will flock to it? Apparently General Motors is enrolling people like crazy on it…hahahaha….maybe Obama is subsidizing the GM executives with the Life training subscriptions. One pyramid supporting another pyramid, how novel. So lets throw all of this subjectivity out the window and take a look at Life for the sheer mathematics. EVERYTHING IN MLM IS SUBJECTIVE EXCEPT THIS PART. YOU CANNOT ARGUE WITH THE MATHEMATICS THAT ARE WRITTEN INTO A COMPENSATION PLAN. THEY ARE WHAT THEY ARE, PERIOD!

    When I analyze a plan, there is one basic formula, that remains constant throughout a plan. You can forget the smoke, the mirrors, the trips, the cars, the blah blah blah, because the foundation sets the entire plan for the entire company. What is this foundational formula? Its simple, when you figure out what it takes for a brand new person to break even each month FROM THE NETWORK MARKETING ASPECT ALONE, this will not only give you a maximum success ratio (barring mitigating factors), it will also give you the formula for compensation dollar allocation. Does this make sense?

    Since Life is a stairstep, that means you need to remain one bracket higher than your teams, otherwise all compensation dollars you would have received on those teams, will be paid out to those below you and you will simply earn on your own volume. So what does it take to break even from the Life network on a residual basis? To break even at the minimum subscription it takes 2 teams with 10 people in each leg on the minimum subscription of $50 a month. That is 21 people including yourself generating $1,050 worth of business for you to keep around $110.00. Now you might say that this is more than $60, which I agree it is, but if you do not reach the $1,000 dollar bracket (20%), you will be in the same bracket as your top partners in each leg, and you will be paid at the same bracket as they are thus resulting in a check to you of $5.00. So the graduated brackets in a stairstep force you to build width, which creates more profitability for the company. So, as I said earlier the basic foundational formula for this plan is a 21 to 1 ratio, meaning out of 21 involved no more than 1 may break even from the compensation plan. This means that a mere 4.75% of all of those involved can ever earn enough from the network to cover the cost of their monthly subscription. If 4.75% is the maximum success ratio, that would indicate that 95.25% of the network can never break even from the network. Trust me, 4.75% is the “maximum” success ratio, usually mitigating factors such as placement, overflow, teamwork etc. etc. can lower the actual ratio quite a bit. As a matter of fact the max ratio in MV is 3.2% but actual ratio with factors is .05%. So when you look at Life and say 4.75%, that is best case scenario.

    The other thing we can learn from this ratio is allocation of compensation dollars. Since only 4.75% will ever make it to the $1000 pv level, which is sharing 20% of the volume, this tells us that the other 95.25% of everyone involved will never share in more than 10% of total volume company wide. This means that 2.68% of all compensation dollars payed out will be shared between the 95.25% of the network, and that 97.32 of available compensation will be shared by a mere 4.75% of the network. THESE FACTORS NEVER CHANGE, NO MATTER WHAT BONUSES ARE ADDED. If you have 10 partners that want to cover their subscription you all must bring in 210 people that cannot cover subscription. If 100 want to pay for their cds, you must bring in 2100 that cannot. If 1,000 people want to earn enough to cover their monthly package, you must all bring in 21,000 who cannot. This is the travesty of MLM. Almost every single company is built on failure rates of 95% plus of its entire distributor force, and Life is no different.

    So Speak, I have said all of this to say this, I can show you a DOZEN companies with a better ratio than 21 to 1, without even researching. Meaning, there is no way that Life can be the “best” compensation plan, or the “cheapest” network in the industry, I am sorry, but I would have to call B.S. on that one. An even sadder fact about this particualr plan is the fact that production costs are much lower than a case of juice, or a box of soap. A CD? You can duplicate these for under 25 cents a copy, thus making a 50% payout on $50 a total and complete joke. The company is making big bucks off of this one, I guarantee it. And after overhead, where is the remainder of the $25 going to? This is going to be great, cannot wait to see how it all unfolds.

  73. October 9, 2011 9:48 pm

    My boy Brent is WICKED SMART!!!

  74. Speak Your Truth permalink
    October 10, 2011 11:00 am

    Will~ LHOL..I have to agree!

    Brent~

    I don’t even know where to begin with all that… It is no wonder people don’t try and figure this crap out!

    This is the bottom line the way I am getting it…those at the TOP still make ALL the profits (what changed?) and it appears in this case if I am reading this right..how ironic that those 95’er’s won’t ever make a profit.

    AND.. how does this provide a viable business again?.. help anyone in this ecconomy..provide an income for them.. and going to ‘change’ the world with their ‘world class’ bs.. for those; that according to them, will never get the kind of lifestyle, financial freedom, ever make more money anywhere else.. passive, residual…blah.blah blah..

    This is worse than having any job on the planet..you become a slave financially to their ideology and to undue influence and mind control and the majority will only continue to lose. I fail to see where the Team has seperated themselves in anyway as they have always claimed they were the best and fastest.. or is much different than MV or Amway based on this.

    Greed, greed, and more greed! It discusts me to the ends of the earth.. that nothing will EVER change for those ‘missionary’… followers..it will be ‘business as usual’ and continue to perpetuate destruction regarless of those thought reformed comments of it ‘changes’ your life for the better…

    You pointed out the self-consumption (FACTS).. autoships and product purchasing for the sake of the majority getting in because they just want to buy those miraculous products at such a ‘great price’…is dead on! Our group is NO different and neither is anyone else’s..it does’t take any thing but ACCURATE data to prove this!

    Those who have convinced themselves of this blantant lie.. have either NEVER built an MLM business …or it is flat out cognitive dissonace and will continue to believe this lie…no more self-deception.

    It is Astounding the denial… that those who want to ‘better’ the ‘industry’..want more transparency and hype to stop….but aren’t willing to face that truth is just mindboggling.

    In the entire history of our business of about a decade and half…I do NOT recall.. NOT ONE… I repeat… NOT ONE… EVER… who got in or stayed in because of any product! They bought it because they were told and believed they would MAKE money by buying it!

    Although, you would have to resort to that sometimes intially..coerce, lie and manipulate those who didn’t ‘see’ the ‘bigger picture.’.

    It would go something close to this: YOU can Get in..and buy your products at (wholesale the prices were NOT wholesale).. so ‘buy from yourself’ and the WORST thing that can happen to you… is you will get 4% kick back on everything you purchase…’JUST HOLD YOUR SPOT!’ …your team will grow because we the ‘leaders’ are ‘committed’ to helping you get that!

    And with the juice…NObody buys the juice just because they WANT TO…it is because they have been coerced and manipulated the same.. with ‘the dream’ of becoming healthy, wealthy and wise… otherwise you can but it at RETAIL which you have already told them how stupid they would be to do that…anyone who has tried selling it just because well…how is that working for ya…it has NOTHING to do with the product…it has EVERYTHING to do with HOW MUCH MONEY you coerced and manipulated them into believing YOU will make! Just drink it..feel it..an share it ( share it meaning ….your remarkable, incredible, unbelievable.. results with others so they too will believe it will cure all their aches and pains). That is the front..

    The INDUSTRY NEEDS TO FACE REALITY and stop the lying to themselves…why do you think they NEED a handling objections CD and have to HYPE every flippin thing they promote and make false and exagerated claims? They know this and go to great lengths to feed people on how to get around it. Denial..Denial..Denial..

    Those who built an MLM (nternal consumption) business’s… cannot deny this FACT.. just look at YOUR OWN group..right there in black and white….who is buying…as Brent pointed out…the company knows this and so does EVERYONE in the industry they just choose to ‘believe’ something different!

  75. Speak Your Truth permalink
    October 10, 2011 11:03 am

    Brent~ Btw thanks a bunch for taking the time to explain this…not sure I get it ALL but definitely know who makes the PROFITS…it isn’t the missionaries..lol

  76. Used to be "all-in" permalink
    October 10, 2011 11:31 am

    Isn’t the fact that the Team promotes that Numbers at Events (“butts in seats”) will drive your System counts & depth, which will in turn drive Volume proof positive that they are an internal consumption machine without a sustainable business model (except for the PC, who rake in the profit sharing)? Meaning that as soon as your numbers drop, your volume will too (and visa-versa). I heard countless times that those who focus on volume CAN’T develop systematic income…but the reason given for other groups’ lack of sustainable success was because they didn’t have the Team’s system, NOT that the products were ridiculously overpriced and impossible to sell at retail for any extended period of time so we needed to do the bait and switch.

  77. brent hansen permalink
    October 10, 2011 11:45 am

    The thing that cracks me up the most about this whole scenario is the fact that after years and years, of experience, benchmarking, systems analysis, and millions of dollars, this is the best they can do? You have to be kidding me! There are a plethora of structures that would bring the new person to residual profit quicker and more efficiently than the one they have written. This goes to prove the point that I made on a post elsewhere here that the compensation plan merely exposes the true intent. Forget the rhetoric, hyperbole, and hype, show me the money!

    This plan falls flat on its face from the standpoint of a new person, but will hastily line the pockets of those at the top. This is the chance to prove they are different, a shining star in the industry, a beacon of truth, a real opportunity for real people, and this plan totally undermines all the years of self promotion. It totally reveals the reality and intent of their purpose. They have made the “clean” break they have always yapped about. Their plan is not controlled by some other CEO or company, it is THEIR PLAN, WRITTEN BY THEM.

    Forget character assasination, anonymous blogging, and all other purported grievances, this plan proves all of that for you. Nothing could show their purpose and intent more than this, I don’t care what anyone says from here on because this plan reveals true character. You cannot hide it now, because this their deal that they have written with their own hands, no scapegoat on this one.

  78. brent hansen permalink
    October 10, 2011 11:48 am

    UTBAI, exactly…..I remember hearing the phrase “just add 2 zeros to your BDS ticket count, and you will know your volume”. And you know what? They were right! Our volume was always within 100 or 200 points of our monthly seminar count, isn’t that amazing!

    That fact in and of itself would prove internal consumption only, would it not?

  79. webelieved permalink
    October 10, 2011 11:49 am

    Used to be all in- They have to bait and switch and use thought reform/information control on people to keep them in! Internal Consumption for sure! Great post!

  80. webelieved permalink
    October 10, 2011 11:56 am

    Brent agreed it would equal volume in product flow you could expect because people will not stay and buy the product once they can see the business doesn’t work and they are being scammed! When they get off system they walk away, always! Because after awhile they can think for themselves. The cd’s brainwash people! The mental abuse is the most damaging in my opinion! If people are not under thought reform, then why don’t they stay when they are not listening to cd’s? And why do top leaders sound like Orrin robots? In my opinion TEAM/LIFE It is a psychology/self help/business cult using destructive thought reform techniques!

  81. webelieved permalink
    October 10, 2011 12:00 pm

    Brent- Great Post, I missed it! This was their chance and once again they proved who they really are, with no scape goats to blame! :)
    Thanks again!

  82. brent hansen permalink
    October 10, 2011 12:01 pm

    There are so many definitions for cult which refer to religion that sometimes the word “cult” seems over the top.

    Here is another definition: ” A cult is a group of people who organize around a strong authority figure–most often that person is attempting to expand their influence for the purposes of money or power.” John Stacey, Rutgers University

  83. webelieved permalink
    October 10, 2011 12:52 pm

    Cult (totalist type): A group or movement exhibiting a great or excessive devotion or dedication to some person, idea, or thing and employing unethically manipulative techniques of persuasion and control (e.g. isolation from former friends and family, debilitation, use of special methods to heighten suggestibility and subservience, powerful group pressures, information management, suspension of individuality or critical judgment, promotion of total dependency on the group and fear of leaving it, etc.), designed to advance the goals of the group’s leaders, to the actual or possible detriment of members, their families, or the community. -International Cultic Studies Association

  84. Speak Your Truth permalink
    October 10, 2011 1:00 pm

    Brent Great final recap @ 11:45! And I believe it is undeniable.

    But I am not sure how many will look for these FACTS first before getting ‘love bombed’ and promised the solutions to all your problems.

    To have this out in front will no doubt help people see it clearly..The numbers..FACTS, simplified.. show why NOT to get involved and will be clear to some but from our experience.. most don’t get involved on logic .. the entire system is designed to wrap you up emotionallly…you pull them away from thinking logically and we know for a fact NO one involved with share this with anyone in or anyone else… the industry has spent decades mastering this..it is all about the ‘dream’ and they prey on those ‘looking’ for those answers they claim to have.

  85. Speak Your Truth permalink
    October 10, 2011 1:03 pm

    It is a part of the solution…thanks. :)

  86. webelieved permalink
    October 10, 2011 1:19 pm

    Brent- Even if the math was good, no one should do an mlm like team/LIFE etc. We ALL know from experience the very nature of the way they work there is NO PROTECTION for the little guy. The companies only protect themselves and the BIG DISTRIBUTORS, PERIOD!
    The big guys can pilfer and steal your business whenever they want, so really no MLM is a viable, stable business. As a distributor you own nothing. There are no territoriy protections for the distributors and mlm really is bullshit designed to make the top rich. Period!
    Unless of course you actually are just directly selling face to face a product to the public, that is cheaper then the store. Then you could protect your contacts from being stolen, lied to, etc. by your upline, downline, crossline, company. ???

  87. brent hansen permalink
    October 10, 2011 2:53 pm

    Webelieved, I am not against Direct Sales, only product based pyramid schemes that are top heavy. There are a small select minority of legitimate models out there, but that is a whole different topic, for an entirely different thread.

  88. das permalink
    October 10, 2011 4:20 pm

    Here is what I found on the site “how cults work”.

    “The Multilevel Marketing Pattern”

    “We’ve all been approached at some time by a friend caught up in the hope of multilevel marketing. The business they are pushing is simple, sell toothpaste or web sites or whatever, and then recruit people under you doing the same, taking a cut from their sales. Soon you will be so rich that you can buy a flashy European car and give stacks of money to Godly causes.”

    “That is the dream. The proof the dream works is embodied in the wealth of the dream’s leaders. Do you see how rich our leaders are? They made all their money by following the dream, proving that you can too. Except, that it’s a lie.”

    “Coming up is the key to the pattern, are you ready? These leaders did not become wealthy by following the dream, instead they became wealthy by building up a group of people who believe passionately in the dream, and then selling dream-promoting wares to this captive audience.”

    “I will say it again, because you need to understand this pattern. They did not become rich by selling toothpaste; they became rich by hyping dream-promoting books, tapes, DVDs, and conferences to their own private market of dream believers.”

    WOW! Does that sound familiar!!

    [Editor's Note: Added blockquote for readability]

  89. webelieved permalink
    October 10, 2011 5:08 pm

    Das- great post! Sounds exactly right on! They didn’t get rich from Amway, or Monavie…. they got rich from selling the dream! LOLOLOLOLOLOL! (well sounds like O got a sweet deal from Dallin so maybe he got rich from MV…but not anyone else! )
    I Love that site! Is it http://www.howcultswork.com?
    I think people are so uninformed about cults they are afraid to even think it is possible that Team is a cult. Team…LIFE…. uses the same deceptive practices in my opinion. When you open your mind and start reading about other cults and their tactics it will hit you like a brick how similar Orrin’s organization is to the Moonies, Scientology and many others……they may use different words or tactics but the game is the same and so are the results. People are used and manipulated for the personal gain and vision of the leaders. Great Post Das!

  90. webelieved permalink
    October 10, 2011 5:12 pm

    Check out WOUNDED BEAR’S post under leaders filing bankruptcy, looks like another leader screwed by Orrin and Company. His MV team was stolen and reregistered under llc’s in another leg! Boy the leaders and Orrin are getting to all time lows!

  91. das permalink
    October 10, 2011 7:21 pm

    That wouldn’t be legal. I am sure Orrin and Chris will make it right…after all they are “Living Intentionally For Excellence”, right? They will label him a quiter, a coward, and a critic. After all he was cross-lining. God forbid…he was talking to one of his friends! Like most cult organizations that is forbidden.

  92. webelieved permalink
    October 10, 2011 8:38 pm

    Das- No doubt just like all cult organizations……never talk to others in crossline organizations, you may find out the truth. LOL!
    I wondered if what they did to wounded bear would be illegal. It is just like Monavie not to respond. This whole thing is set up amazingly like the mafia. They all protect each other, the company probably gave wounded bear’s letter to his upline, instead of doing something about it! It wouldn’t suprise me one bit……. all so discusting!
    They sure are not living for excellence, they can lie to everyone else, but not to God. The ends do not justify the means. These are people’s lives and time they can never get back. This scam/cult affects families in a negative way, kids, parents, grandparents, friends, families. It steals their time, and money, and God give gifts. These people really are dellusional that they can justify to themselves what they have done.
    I read this great book of stories by Steven Covey- Living the Seven Habits, and I will tell you it helped me see, they are not anywhere close to real leaders. Another good one is The Starfish and the Spider. The very nature and structure of their organization will take them down. Someone I know said it best….Orrin does not want leaders, he wants blind followers. When PC got rid of the leaders they had more money to pay the FOLLOWERS! LOL!

  93. Speak Your Truth permalink
    October 11, 2011 7:47 am

    Webelieved and das~

    Couldn’t agree more…the thought reform is outrageous and thee most destructive.. they should be taken out completely for messing with the minds of ten’s of thousands of people. The indoctrination, in my opinion causes the greatest damage of ALL. It takes years sometimes to clear out the fog and destruction this causes mentally, emotionally, and spiritually to people’s minds, heart and souls.

    One of the best stories to date that I have read besides some personal accounts which were just as devastating that I personally have witness… Eric’s story in his Book.. Merchants of Deception describes this destruction with clarity. How horrifing..and the heartless monsters have the audacity to call people quitters, losers, haters, internet flamers etc…just to try and cause more insult to injury…that to me is a brush with evil. They wonder why people aren’t running around telling everyone how great their experiences are and oh how the system changed their lives in such a postive way…people become immuned to their hateful name calling.

    You can count on this… sometime in their lives before they reach their death bed or maybe on their death bed…they will have to snap out of their denial and face the grim and devastating reality of all the lives they have damaged… no more denying and that point.. if they wait that long..too late, no time to make amends…because it WILL come back with more force than they have given it. It is a law…you reap what you sow!

    We have all witnessed this law.. in our own lives,….no one is excempt…a great example is Bernie Madoff….How tragic the ripple effect… but justice WAS served on this earth…and who knows what will happen after his life is over..scary…. now he has earned his way in to in a 9 by 5 cell or whatever the tiny cozy little place he has earned to be in..and he gets to spend the rest of his life… til his last dying breath… with the agonizing truth of his actions…he finally pays the consequences of the luxurious lifestyle he lived on for almost 2 decades? Admittedly, willing, and calulated.. damaged and destroyed people’s livelihoods…scammed billions. Now ask how many millions have been scammed from those who have been and still are on the team…who have no clue..yet..that, that will be their fate.

    Was it worth it for Bernie or anyone else to live… life based on greed…I know not. Orrin and his yes men can say they are missionaries til they are blue in the face..their actions speak louder than their twisted words will ever say.

    How grateful we are for the grace that were pulled us out of the LIE and trap. We were once blind but now…we can see!

Leave a Reply. Because your thoughtful opinions are valued, you are encouraged to add a comment to this discussion. Don't be offended if your comments are edited for clarity or to keep out questionable matters. Off-topic and inflammatory comments may be deleted. Comments on this website are the sole responsibility of their writers. The accuracy, completeness, veracity, honesty, exactitude, factuality and politeness of comments are not guaranteed.

Fill in your details below or click an icon to log in:

WordPress.com Logo

You are commenting using your WordPress.com account. Log Out / Change )

Twitter picture

You are commenting using your Twitter account. Log Out / Change )

Facebook photo

You are commenting using your Facebook account. Log Out / Change )

Google+ photo

You are commenting using your Google+ account. Log Out / Change )

Connecting to %s

%d bloggers like this: