About
This site presents another point of view on the Amway/MonaVie/TEAM/Orrin Woodward scam or opportunity. It is designed to inform people of what they might expect to see when building an Amway, MonaVie or LIFE business. I want to give prospective and current distributors another perspective on the opportunity. This “other side of the plan,” is designed to help people make an informed decision on whether to join, continue, or leave the business.
I am first and foremost a critic of the following:
- Abusive Amway/MonaVie/LIFE Motivational Organizations (AMO): Many teaching and training organizations use deceptive and cult-like tactics to indoctrinate distributors into making poor decisions which are primarily in the interest of the AMO rather than the distributor’s own Amway/MonaVie business.
- MonaVie: MonaVie is a relative newcomer to the MLM marketplace, but it exhibits the same problems that Amway with regards to unscrupulous training organizations. Additionally, it is arguable that its products are too expensive vis-a-vis their dubious value.
- Alticor Corporation: The parent company to Amway (formerly known as Quixtar in North America), Alticor has tacitly allowed these System abuses to occur over the past several decades. It has turned a blind eye to what was happening because the money kept flowing into its coffers. Accreditation in recent years has promised to curb some of these excesses, but it remains to be seen if the program has been effective.
Lately, I have been focusing my analysis and investigative efforts on TEAM, an MLM teaching and training organization led by Orrin Woodward. Woodward’s MLM roots began Amway, spread to MonaVie, and are now sprouting up in his own homegrown LIFE MLM, which he started in November, 2011.
You can read a little bit about my history in the business in the post, How I Succeeded By Failing.
On this web site, I will share my experiences building the business, what I learned after leaving, and my thoughts on the future of Amway, MonaVie, LIFE and other related MLM businesses.
If you wish to send me an email, you can send your correspondence to:
amthrax (at) ymail (dot) com
I used to be in INA and I wanted to meet with you to tell you my story so that you can share info with other people so that they can avoid what happened to me. Are you open to meeting in San Jose area?
Mike: How about sending me an email to amthrax (at) ymail.com with your story?
Hey man, I like your site. I got into LTD/Amway because my brother got in and went to a conference where he is now full fledged convinced about this thing. I got in thinking that I would genuinely be able to save consumers money by giving them one stop access to cheap products like Eastbays, and half.coms where i already shop and find great deals and recommend them to people. I get in only to find out most partner stores only give a discount to IBOs not customers. Basically I have to ask them to do me the favor of shopping through my site first. That pry will only work with close friends and family. I believe one can make money in this business but only through much retailing is it genuinely creating wealth. LTD is much better than Britt or other orgs it seems but they still fall into the trap of telling you to get your 300 pv if couple 150 pv if single and then go out and network. What’s your take on LTD? They also talk about lifestyle too much for my taste.
And they talk about buying everything from yourself and teaching others to do the same. Problem is most equivalent brands like kellogs cereal which we can buy are more expensive per ounce even with BV kickback. Unless I get into the 18+% range. When I told my brother to only buy what makes sense money wise like SA8 he said nobody saves their way to financial freedom. Oh boy
I don’t know what to do bc though i like some products I don’t want to ask anybody to be in this system if there is nothing more than a sliver of a chance of success.
Jon – If you are happy just buying the products for yourself, then continue to do so. No one is forcing you to build the business.
I know but i’m receiving intense pressure from my brother and upline. I have no problem generally fighting off peer pressure when it comes to drinking and such, but my brother says i need to go to the conference. I have already put in hundreds of dollars to the biz with minimal return. I told him i’ll continue to work it but only on the side (i’m pry going to get out as soon as i get rid of more inventory) he says that’ll all go away by conference.
anyway you know of telling an ambot that they should at least track expenses to see if it’s a good move. told my brother that and he said most businesses don’t turn profits for years so he doesn’t care and if the dream is big enough the numbers don’t matter.
i love my brother and i don’t want him to be incredibly pissed at me but i’m afraid i’ll have to face that alternative. anything i say to caution him is automatically labelled as negative and tearing down his dream.
Tell him that while you support him and want him to do well, that this business is not the right fit for you. There are plenty of other opportunities out there, and that you are interested in pursuing them, but not this one.
Don’t fight back if he insists on arguing with you. Take the high road.
I was part of Brad Duncan clan in the late 1990′s and quit after few years. I Still believe in the principles of the business. I just wish these leaders of the business would too.. hypocrites!
Jon, I’m also currently building a business and loving it, but if you are an IBO but aren’t interested in building a big business right now your brother and your upline should respect that. Putting undue pressure on you, the downline, isn’t helping you. If they’re not helping you, then they aren’t helping themselves. What they’re doing isn’t smart business.
Also, what is this nonsense about inventory? I’ve never had to have an inventory, it’s pretty much all online based now.
Hey Dude!
YOUR blog is ALL Negative. Is there anything good about YOUR site? What on earth did Amway do to YOU? YOU meant to tell me you dont like saving money, making money and helping people. Ok well run back to Mommy and suck YOUR thumb and complain to all YOUR playgroud friends.
If your not buying from your own store, then allow everyone else to make money off you and suck you dry. Idiot
Gracias a Dias que me da mas de lo que meresco.
I Know you know the truth. You might not even publish this but im gald YOU saw it.
STOP KILLING PEOPLES DREAMS BECAUSE YOU DONT HAVE ONE, JUST STOP BEING A CRAB IN BUCKET….
i totally agree wid kimberly.. As for dear Mr. Amthrax…Hello!!! dreamless and aimless as you are…this certainly does nt giv u d right to discourage others. At least get your facts right dude…Amway is the only company going into continuous sustainable profit all over the world inspite of recession. The only advice i hav for you is “Go get a life”. May God bless you and give you some wisdom.
Not everyone will succeed in Amway or MLM. For those that don’t, isn’t it better for them to cut their losses and leave before losing more money? There’s more opportunity out there than just your business; it would behoove those that quit to see what else is out there. Amway and MLM is not the be all to end all.
But dear Amthrax….those who quit should not go out and make a web page like this one. Plus let me tell you those who fail in this are the ones who want easy money for example you yourself, or are outright pessimists like you are. Stop being so negative and telling off other enthusiasts.
Is it negative or the truth? The bottom line fact is that most people who get involved in Amway or other MLM end up with a net loss. Those who attend functions and buy support materials end up with the biggest losses.
Garima – read the rest of my web site and all of the posts before commenting again. You’ll note that I’m critical of unethical systems and the company that (tacitly) condones such behavior. I generally have no problem with Amway’s products, aside from thinking that they are on the expensive side vis-a-vis their quality. I encourage those that are in the business to retail their products in order to make immediate income. There are examples of IBOs who are successul at retailing. The majority of people who don’t succeed, however, are those tied to systems that are draining their bank accounts with the purchase of tools, function tickets and other useless motivational information. Positive is the opposite of negative. You might think I’m being negative, but when you are on my side of the equation, you’ll see that I’m quite positive. IF Amway doesn’t work out for you, there are other opportunities out there. What do you say to those people who fail at Amway? Are they losers? Quitters? Failures? Now, who’s being negative here?
i believe that those who quit are losers big tym. they do not hav enuf understanding of the process and end up criticising. u may not believe me bt will surely believe the global statistics which i will send u soon dear.
Quitting when you are losing money is just a business decision. Who said Amway is the only way to make a buck? I find that odd, especially when most IBO lose money. There are many many more successful people out in the general world than there are in Amway. Think about that for a second when your upline speaks of “association”.
well i guess provin a point to u ppl is like banging my head against the wall……..so pessimistic u ppl are raelly. only wen i go diamond will i get back to u nw i guess
You are welcome to go diamond and let us know how Peter Island is. Merry Christmas!
@Amthrax
I do not understand why you do not have a blog about the pastors who are used to control people in the LOA’s in amway . You seem to only point out the big pins in amway.
Are you not aware that the pastors they use , blur the lines on religion and faith so much that it is responsible for many of the cult like nature of the industry ?
I personal have seen pastors brought into rooms to try and convince IBO’s from quitting the business !!
I have even heard of guys like Paul tsika being used to strong arm downline for the head of the LOA like n wwdb’s case . This guy had the whistle blown on him last year by some of the people leaving wwdb when they found out he had been kicked out of churches and committed adultery , and well as drugged young girls .. I mean it was straight out of a movie .
I personal watched Paul talk about folks who had left wwdb as if they just had no morals now and where not in gods grace !!
@ The Cult – I’ve written about religion and the business before. I hadn’t heard about this Paul fellow until those comments about him came up from several weeks ago.
And we should note that those “pastors” can’t do anything without the diamonds allowing them to speak at the functions.
hey am really very pleased to declare dat i hav recently joined amway and the results are GREAT!!!! Its the most logical thing to do…for sensible ppl all around the world in these times of recession and insecurity…i mean ppl can surely not earn just by starting blogs like this one isn’t it?? But i guess its all a matter of guts and of course sour grapes can grudge as much as they want ..it doesn’t affect my paycheck at all!!!
Geez, Garima;
Get an education, already. It’s almost impossible to read your posts.
Amthrax;
All these pro-ambots sound like they have the equivalent of a 3rd grade education. What’s up with that?
Aurora darling….anybody who uses or does mobile texting/chatting etc will understand what i write….get a life all of us who are part of Amway are well educated, rich and well to do people its only the rest of the world( people like for example) which needs to be educated and enlightened. By the way, may i have the pleasure of knowing YOUR educational qualifications dear???
Well, Hello, Garima;
Might you be a dino kosage minion? You sound like one.
When dino’s minions can’t answer straight – up questions about amway, they resort to demanding our degrees. That’s too funny.
Oooo, you text and stuff. wow. My apologies. A real world changer.
Why would you be so interested in my education?
Again, I’m really not your ‘darling.’
This is fun how dino sends these poor fools out one at a time. Amusing, actually.
You know, Garima, come to think of it, you sound just like Happy Girl. Same poor grammer and degree demanding posts.
And, Garima;
Didn’t you say you wouldn’t be back until you went diamond? Please be a person of your word.
Funny how ambots know everything about our work ethic, and they’ve been in amway a whole 15 minutes.
With regard to the Amway opportunity, specifically INA. Although, I presume the same is true for all systems, the real money does not come from Amway / Alticor / etc. It is the system itself. The meetings and tools produce well over half the income the Diamonds received. And 50% is conservative.
Amthrax-Excellent site! I agree 100% with your above “mission statement!” Your blog is one of the more even handed & level headed critiques of Amway, WWDB, Quixtar, etc. organizations out there…My compliments, good Sir!
Joe Cool & Aurora – I agree with all your posts I’ve read so far, here & elsewhere…Well done!
Kimberly, Garima & All pro-Amway supporters-You say “pessimist”…I say “practical!” (End of story!)
GARIMA:
If you ever come back to this website, PLEASE read:
In regards to your comment:
“i believe that those who quit are losers big tym. they do not hav enuf understanding of the process and end up criticising.”
I’ve been involved in this industry for over 10 years… I’ve reached significant levels… don’t think for one second that people who have quit don’t know EXACTLY how to build, recruit, sell, and influence hundreds of people on Team. Been there -done that.
And then you said, “hey am really very pleased to declare dat i hav recently joined amway and the results are GREAT!!!!”
If you recently joined Amway then your obviously a rookie. Just because you think MLM/Amway or Team is GREAT!!! Doesn’t mean that I didn’t think it was great too, at one time and then woke up.
Don’t paint everyone with the same paint brush. I think your right that some people don’t know how to build this…. but not me. I know how to build it… and built it I did. If you only knew how hard I worked this opportunity – 6-7 nights per week…. thousands of miles driven every week… thousands of dollars of tools purchased for personal use every month… minimum of 6 cases of juice ordered every month… top leadership package … speaking at hotels across the country… etc etc… you have no idea!
I hope you enjoy your journey, and I wish you all the success!
Mr Unknown, I have joined Amway as i don’t wish to remain “unknown” like you for the rest of my life. I am a scientist so I don’t really have time to waste on these silly blogs. The only reason why I revolt every time somebody posts negative remarks on this blog is that you guys have no right to discourage people with such shallow blogs. “Don’t paint everyone with the same brush” is what I should say to you Sir. First get all your facts right. If you think Amway is a big scam….a scam that has lasted for over 50 years ought to have something in it. My efforts will not waver till you guys just shut this blog of yours.
If you are serious about becoming known….do your research.
Ask for your platnim/successful/promoted upline’s tax statement because you are going into business partnership with them you would clearly look at the financials before you invest your time and hard earned money. You want to see the net income. what is left over after expenses.That would be the part they pay taxes on an is spendable income for others reading that may not get this.
Get the contracts, and take them to your attorney. You wouldn’t go into business with someone without a contract you will take to your attorney right??
Ask to see the tool sales contract too. For money earned from sales tools, cds etc, as you will get that eventually maybe.
Ask what level is the successful person at and how long they have been in the business? Verify.
Ask your accountant if she has prepared tax returns for Amway clients and have they made a profit or loss…?
Get an income disclosure statement on how many people are in your business and how many are at each level and what they make……written on paper by the corporation. also get one for the tool side of the business. how much what levels and how many?
Look at succesful uplines planner/calender and see how many hours they work…. then ask their kids, and their spouse……….decide if it is worth it to you.
Please let me know what you find out, I had hit high level in amway so it would be interesting to hear how they are doing things now. Thanks
Garima;
A scientist, even. When did scientists begin texting with the grammer of a 5th grader? Are you actually working in a prestigious lab? Is this how scientists converse now?
The speakers used to love dropping names from stage, as if that lent credibility to amway. Greg Duncan told us Meg Ryan was in amway. Hmmm…………I looked everywhere. Couldn’t find her. What a loser. What part of C.O.R.E. did she not get?
dino kosage claims M&M is in his downline. amway will never be the same. My guess? You won’t find him at the functions either. Another loser, I suppose.
The more a person has to throw around their own credentials, the less people are impressed. It’s boring.
You sound very much like Happy Girl, the current love of dino’s life.
My ass you are a scientist Garima. Pray tell, what branch of science are you involved in and what level of education have you achieved? A Bachelor of Science in Snake Oilography? You are clearly trying to lie your way into credibility here and it is despicable.
This blog ain’t goin’ nowhere honey,not as long as there are people like you are around, victimizing and conning the unsuspecting public. There may be decent people “accidentally” involved in these MLMs, but you are NOT one of them.
humiliated, that is one of the best comments that I have read. Your right on about this blog.
My dear Aurora
It really pains me how you have lost focus in life. How old are you by the way? If you wish to be treated I have some great psychiatrists in my contacts, here in India. They believe that insane people usually repeat the same whether it makes sense to them or not! I have my sympathies with you. If nothing else at least respect people who are older to you!
Dear Mr. Humiliated
What an appropriate name you have chosen for yourself! i am glad you know who you are!! Please mind your tongue dear because I know how to set people like you right. As for my profile I don’t know if you have the required amount of GK or not, but I am a Microbiologist working with ISRO here in India. Even I know how to abuse but I do not so it is better if you use better words( show me some class dude!!).
Way to go on calling that one out humilated!
Unknown- with your 10 years and my 13, I believe that = 23, pretty sure that would constitue some educated experience at least!
Good luck to you Garima, we hope you succeed! Come back in about 23 years and let us know how you are doing.
Hmmm…derisive MLM troll rears its ugly head. Do you plan to say something relevant someday or are you just here to bitch people out for no apparent reason other than that their comments might cut into your paltry bottom line?
Just because you don’t like what people are saying doesn’t mean that they don’t have the right to say it. Smarten up!
Vogel- Thanks for more laughs, much needed!
Hi, Garima;
Guess you couldn’t wait to go diamond, huh, before you came back here to scold us negative nellies.
Let me see if I understand you. We figured out the fraud called amway so somehow we lost our life’s focus? Actually, no we haven’t. We are all quite focused. I gave up the bs amway dream for a real business plan. It’s worked out beautifully.
My age? Really? O.K., I’ll bite. I’m 52. Been around long enough to start having fun with the silliness of you young’uns.
And this was a good one – insane people keep repeating the same thing so you are going to recommend a psychiatrist? Lucky me.
I’m still waiting for you to answer some of our questions. How do you feel about Brad Duncan commenting on Greg Duncan’s bankruptcies? David Shores home forclosure? Brad Wolgamott’s infidelity? dino kosage leaving wwdb? You know, all these inconsequential little details about the lives of your uplines.
What pin level have you achieved? We were 4000 pv as Double Eagles. That would be defined as going broke at breakneck speed. Do you know the parameters for Double Eagle? Have you been to Movin’ Up Weekend? We have. Big woopie shit.
Can you actually respond to amway questions without mentioning your education/degree status? One has absolutely nothing to do with the other.
I loved her comment ” I know how to set people like you right”.
ROFL! All I can say to that is bring it on beotch! And while your at it, try to find a way to make you sketchy unspecified background in microbiology relevant to our discusion, and then see how quickly you get carved into little pieces. She knows not who she’s messing with.
I’m still trying to find how microbiology relates to this thread; more importantly, why someone who claims to be a microbiologist is actually an Amway clown. Must not have been very successful in microbiology if she gave it all up in lieu of plugging scandalously overpriced laundry detergent and the like. Har Har!
Ha. Garima. Vogel said it before I could, but, if I may BRING IT! I am shaking in my boots waiting for you to “set me right”! What exactly would that involve? Would you bore me into unconsciousness with your incessant, repetitive & nauseating ambot speak? That might hurt actually, I could hit my head on the corner of my desk while I was slipping into unconsciousness, get a big, unattractive bruise…on the other hand, I beg of you, please don’t set me straight!
And, you presumptuous & pompous piece of crap, I am a woman.
I must commend Garima for her brave efforts. Guys what has Amway done to you. I have gone through all the comments and posts and all I can say is that the only reason why all of you failed is your “greed”. This business is not meant for greedy people. The simple plan for MLM business is “slow and steady wins the race”, thats it. End of story.
Dear Vogel and Dearest Aurora
I mentioned my qualifications because some idiot demanded it on this blog.
As for you Aurora your break neck speed was the reason why you broke down so soon. I have been slow but I have sustained my income as well as my growth. Had you been in my LOS, I would have given you better advice. My field of study helps me understand Nutrilite and helps to improve the general health of all people around me. Don’t we all want good health and well being?? At the age of 52, I am sure you understand what good health means. I am doing a noble job so nobody’s silly remarks can possibly stop me!! Try harder guys!!!!!!!!
P.S- All this shit about Brad Duncan commenting on Greg Duncan’s bankruptcies and David Shores home for closure, Brad Wolgamott’s infidelity is no concern of mine they are not in my uplines. Happy???
Garima;
You answered no questions. Care to share your length on time in amway? Your current pin level? # of those sponsored? Their current pin levels? How many Artistry, Nutrilite, and retail clinics have your personally held? Been to Movin’ Up Weekend yet? No?
And what is your age? I see you conventiently left that out after assuming I wasn’t respectful of my elders.
I detect a little negativity toward us. Are you gettin’ hot under the collar? Have we hit a nerve?
All you ambots do on these blogs is define nothing. You answer no real business questions because you can’t. You do not have a real business. You spin and dance all around the hard core crap we endured and WORKED very hard for years to attain, only to find out when we arrived, it was just more of the same.
Have you been instructed to answer no questions or can you just not answer them? All we ever get from the likes of you is we need ‘help.’ That used to be insulting but now it’s just boring.
Are you holding out income tax from all those checks you are getting? Of course, you will want to deduct all those expenses first. Am will convince you that a refund is a good thing. In the real business world, it spells doom.
I’ll spell it out for you: Let’s say you grossed 50,000 in amway as a direct. You have, maybe, $10,000 in expenses. O.K. 50,000 – 10,000 is 40,000.
If you are not in amway and your tax bracket is 30%, 30% of 50,000 = 15,000 in income taxes. You are left with 35,000. Still good.
Now, you have 10,000 in expenses. 50,000 – 10,000 = 40,000. 30% of 40,000 = 12,000 in income taxes. Now before you say, “See? I saved 3,000, consider this: you spent 10,000 and got back 3000. You lost 7,000!!!!! Try to sell that business plan. Those are the numbers you would have to show to a prospective buyer.
This scenerio should be at the forefront of anyone who has a business. It’s about the bottom line no matter how much Tinker Bell fairy dust you try to sprinkle on it.
Dear Amthrax
Thank you so much for your site (and also thanks to my best friend Google to be able to find your site!) to see that my doubts about this whole way of doing business were not imaginary.
At the moment I am listening to the CD’s “Rich Plan Poor Plan” and “Private Franchising in a High Tech, High Touch World” I got last week, at a seminar I was invited to. Right there and then I said that what they are telling seems like a fairy tale, and you know what I do not believe in fairy tales anymore.
So, no chance of getting to become millionaire this way
I rather be poor than be used by others. And even worse the “ignorant” people are dragging friends into this system, because they are blinded by the fiction of this business opportunity, and not the facts (that hardly anyone makes a profit).
So thanks, thanks, thanks again.
You’re welcome. There are other ways to save and make money in this world that don’t require the same degree of time, effort, and money that building a very large MLM business entails. Good luck in finding an opportunity that will help you achieve your goals.
Welcome me,
I am glad you can see through the deception of what this “business opprotunity” is. Please,Feel free to share more, how long have you been in, hopefully not too long and you haven’t lost too much money!
This thread was such fun. We need some more playmates. C’mon, dino, throw some more mud on the wall and let’s see what sticks!
Hi Speak Your Truth,
Thankfully I have not been sucked into this system. I did not sign up, I just attended a seminar. I just emailed the person who invited me that this “opportunity” is not for me, and that I was not interested.
I have had experiences with other “great opportunities” which turn to be just rip offs. And with a blog I also warn people to be careful. What I noticed last week that all these people who offer these “opportunities” to others act the same way to lure innocent, hardworking people in.
They present a nice story, there are no facts, no financial details, nothing at all. For me this is a red flag
There is pressure to act/sign up within a few days. ….. another red flag.
Specific questions were not answered. How much do I have to invest? No answer. What are the costs yearly? No answer
They act if they are your best friend. Well some people are just nice, but combined with the other signals it is a red flag.
They see that you are vulnerable. Probably you have said something about starting your own business, because you cannot find a job, or that is hard to make ends meet. If someone comes with THE solution, just be careful.
Although I did not experience the following at this seminar and with the person who invited me, it can happen that they leave you with the feeling that you made the worst mistake in your life if you do not take the chance.
Hey aurora glad to see you came out to play, LOL!!!
Me
Wow I wish I could say that happened to us, but I have learned somethings about what cult experts say are cult practices that fit with this organization and that is the most vulernable people are those who are going through,or have recently gone through a tragedy like divorce, lost loved one, financial problems, a recent move into a new location etc.! This would be the first and #1, WARNING and if anyone is or has recently experienced these challenges they SHOULD NOT get involved with any “buisness opprotunities” or anything other thing that sounds to good to be true.
I would even say there are some cult-church like people that this warning would apply to also. Take your time and deal with the challenges and get through them first. Another thing is the high-pressure of “get in right now or you will miss out on..” or “don’t believe everything you read on the internet” There isn’t a legitmate business that wouldn’t allow you time to do the research! READ WHAT THE FTC RECOMMENDS FOR THE MLM INDUSTRY AND THEIR LAWS ON WHAT YOU SHOULD DO AND EXPECT TO GET FOR WHAT THEY ARE CLAIMING YOU WILL GET, like $$$ claims etc.!
Hi Speak Your Truth,
I think you nailed the pin on the head with your “cult” comparison. Vulnerable people can easily become victims , because these “cult” people are good in praising you in every possible way. And isn’t nice to belong to a group of people where you are appreciated.
Sadly enough the “followers” (the person who took me to the seminar is really a nice person) are in a way so dangerous, even more than clever sales people, because they themselves believe in the system they try to get you in. I think they cannot change there way of thinking (like Garima) because they are just brainwashed. And if they would have any doubt, they probably ignore it because to admit that they have been trapped, or have enabled other people to get trapped, is probably too much to handle.
I will stick with my life savers “If it sounds to good to be true, it probably is not ” and “fairy tales do not exists”
Me
That is one of my biggest regrets as I started figuring out the real truth and feeling trapped, we had already trapped thousands of people into the same illusional lie. You can’t imagine the excruicating guilt and the worst of all was the regret and pain suffered of leaving our children and families, missing all their Birthday parties,(rescheduling) for a different day because of the Major Leadership Conventions and Seminars, every flipping year for their entire childhoods! I could go on for days on all the family things we missed and rescheduled! My prayer is the Justice will be served quickly and swiftly! Because there are thousands of others who will find out the truth and when they do, it is going to be more destruction in the wake of the “fairy tale land that doesn’t exist”! In the end even those teams we had built and the income we earned was all stolen from us! It truly is criminal to me!
Hi Speak Your Truth,
I am sorry to read that you have lost more than “only” money, it seems that you have , for many years, lost your life and used relations for this “promise” to have a “great life”. What you are telling me is that by entering this “business opportunity” you completely lost control over your own life? What I heard last week at the seminar was just completely the opposite story, that it would enable you to get control over your life!
Maybe you should write you life story in detail, and ask Amthrax to publish it to prevent more victims of this cult system. If people can read how it is going to affect there personal life with family and kids, I hope they think twice before stepping into this system.
Dear Speak;
Every time I read your posts, I realize I could have written them myself. You have described, once again, the ugly reality that is mlm.
You walk away from your families, friends, and anyone/anything that built your life. These people are who anchor you and keep your sane. amway rips you away from them and then demands your loyalty as if they were your new family.
After you have flipped off your family and friends enough times, the amway cult is all you have left. Tragic.
We, too, will never get those years back with our kids. I’m still kicking myself.
The brain-washed ambots can’t stand the fact that we exist and, horror of horrors, we’re getting the word out about their tool business.
Me
There are some reasons I won’t publish my full story and on this forum, I agree telling your story is very healing for both myself and others. I do not feel right now is the time yet. Thanks for your understanding and I hope you come back to share some more.
aurora
Thanks for your very wise words you share here.
I also love your twist of humor you always add too, as you already know that helps in the healing! I really had a hard time laughing for a long time, it was sheer angry at the betrayal and injustices. They really screwed with the wrong loyal people. I do believe and have alot of respect for juicescam site and think he is making a difference, kudos to him for putting himself on the line. But it really is the tool business abuses and the unethical, immoral, and even illegal things that we have experienced with the Team that caused me to ended up on Amthrax’s site to begin with. It was more fitting with our experience. It was the beginning of the end when we left Q/A, into MV, so there isn’t alot of experience persay with my MV in comparison.
I have been trying since I came here to express my heart of gratitude and I believe I have found a way. So, stay tuned. Thx
This may be the wrong place to ask, but I’m not sure where else to go. I am curious about the what people here think of the actual books within Team. The top 50, and even the Top 5. Aside from the actual business itself, what do you feel about the information amongst the books?
(If this was covered somewhere else here, just guide me there. Thanks)
@Mattjer22 and all:
You should post your inquiry in the Ex-TEAM Discussion post.
From reading some of the argumentative posts here, I think it’s a true saying that “a person convinced against his will is of the same opinion still.” Sometimes we have to let people find out the truth for themselves and not argue with them. The arguing got no one anywhere.
Thanks for making this site; I now understand a lot better what’s been happening with my father the past 10+ years. Maybe you could have a page to try to help family members of current members deal? I feel like I haven’t seen my real dad in a decade.
There are a couple of posts on this site that have information about family members trying to get their relatives out. Search for the post on Tyson from the Midwest; lots of good information there.
Editor’s note: removed Tyson’s full name at his request
Cee Ess- Welcome! I understand your saddness but all is not lost. Please read Tyson wants his brother out, and Beleagured Boyfriend in archives. Also throughout this whole site their are reccomendations on helping family members think for themselves again.You also will find great info in the book “Combatting Cult Mind Control” by Steve Hasan and the bite model at http://www.freedomofmind.com
Chances are your dad has no idea about the info on this site or all the leaders that left Orrin and co. I would highly recomend you read up on cults before taking any action, including speaking to him about this. You need to approach it in a certain way as he is under powerful thought reform and doesn’t even know it. Steve hasan talks about Amway Motivational Organizations which is where the Team originated, so it will be very good to understand the heirarchy. In my opinion, after studying cults and talking with exmembers of other groups, I believe Team/LIFE operates in very similar ways as the moonies, scientology etc. and cult books will help.
. Feel free to join the conversation. We would love to hear how this has affected your lives. It would help others who are looking at or doing the “business”.
Many people haven’t heard the truth, as it is portrayed like it is all rosy and good when you are in. In my experience leaders know the ugly side isn’t shown, time missed with family, always working, taking calls, driving, missing birthdays, family vacations, neglecting kids needs, emotionally not available, etc.
These are all my opinions and experience of Team.
Editor’s note: removed Tyson’s full name at his request
Thanks Amthrax and webelieved.
It’s not that I didn’t know he’s been trying to recruit me since day 1; he was incredibly un-subtle about it when he started. He has been becoming more subtle as I’ve refused to engage at all–by which I mean, I won’t even have the conversation anymore; in the beginning, I would respond clearly by saying I wasn’t interested and never would be. I found that this didn’t work and he kept trying.
Somehow, even though it’s only ever been his enthusiastic and certain perspective on things, it’s always seemed cult-like to me so I’ve resisted. What this site helped me see was 1) Just how much of his conversation with me over the past ten yeas (all of it, it seems) is him repeating TEAM/LIFE jargon (I found a very long list somewhere on this site and realized I recognized more than half of the phrases!! Especially the one about how I’ll never succeed at anything, ever, unless I do this thing.) 2) That his focus and the absolutely crazy amounts of money he’s lost are not unusual, and more importantly, his blindness to the implications of spending so much and making none net is symptomatic. It does seem cult-like, as well as addiction-like, to me. I’ll look at the Hassan books, thanks.
I will also look for those other posts.
Can you tell us what it has done to your relationship specifically? I am assuming you are his adult child? I think it would help people see from the outside what it is like when a family member is sucked into this thing…..I was once where your dad is……..
I was so brainwashed I thought I was doing what God wanted, leading people to “truth”.
Now I’ve learned almost all cults imply……. they have the truth.
I couldn’t take advice from anyone not in…..even family who truly loved and cared about my well being. In the Team it is promoted how great it is for the family and I think for the majority of families it is not. My family is SO glad I am out..
Thanks.
The long list of TEAM Speak can be found here: http://amthrax.wordpress.com/2011/03/23/guest-post-l-i-f-e-team-speak-and-their-demands/
webelieved: The effect has really just been steady alienation. I used to trust my father (yes, I’m an adult) implicitly and now I will discuss nothing that actually matters to me with him. I’ve learned the hard way that he’ll try to use anything I say to somehow recruit me. Our conversations are much less frequent than they used to be and they are superficial – although I’m not sure he’s noticed as he just goes on and on about “the business” anyway.
I can’t imagine CeeEss, (well, actually I can because I saw it up close and personal…quite the freak show, let me tell ya.) but everywhere he goes, everyone he meets, nothing compares to this. How sad can it truly be when this $hit is on his mind 24/7?
Plain and simple, my advice to you would be(and I know he’s your dad and it’s not easy) but to pull the plug COMPLETELY but just for awhile with him and see what happens. What would his reaction to that one be?
What a sad deal, (we’re talking two weeks after the launch) his or her own father is trying to suck/scam their own kid into this.
How sick.
I feel bad too CeeEss, but with me the roles were reversed, I was trying to suck my dad in. In hindsight I realize what a fool I must have been for even considering getting family involved now that I know the truth behind the compensation structure. I lost somewhere in the neighborhood of 250K – 300K over a 12-13 yr period, not to mention 4 or 5 cars I wore out and all the time missed with my children. I hope for your dad’s and families sake he doesn’t approach that.
Wow Brent,
For an outsider it is really unbelievable that you had to fall so hard and deep before your eyes were opened. I am so sorry for you and all the others who have been or still are in the same situation.
I am curious when you started to see the truth. Was it a sudden “light bulb” in your mind, or nagging feelings that came to haunt you? Or was everything taken away from you? It must have been so hard to come in terms with the deception after 13 years, and to see world, you saw as the reality and worked so hard for, fall apart.
Switch- You know that just might work…..love is a powerful thing…….
I haven’t figured out the losses financially but personally the losses have been devastating to say the least. I too tried to get my family in and I am sure they thought I was crazy, they saw me killing myself trying to build it.
I am so glad now that they said no! Although at the time they said no, I was upset. Stick to your guns CeeEss.
Me- I think one idoctrination that keeps one trapped is the belief that if you are showing the plan 15 times a month, and it isn’t working it is because THERE IS SOMETHING WRONG WITH YOU. You aren’t a good enough leader, you need to read more, mentor more, etc.
You never realize it could be the overpriced products or the overpriced overhyped tools they are selling. It couldn’t be people realize it is a ruse when they are not brainwashed…… they quit and you have to replace them. over and over.
If you are indoctrinated by cd’s and association, you have no critical thinking left, you blame yourself and keep going.
me,
I was no slouch, I was all in, full on, hard core. Sad thing is I flushed a $100,000 a year job, that had massive benefits, stock options, and a huge opportunity to move into a regional VP position to pursue the dream. I began with Legacy in 1995, I believe one year after Orrin began. Chased the ever elusive freedom in A/Q for 12 years, then spent a brief 18 months with Monavie, and moved into another binary in pre-launch, and took a contract and position with a company (another hybrid binary) to launch in Asia. I had 17 positions in the binary tree, and a 2% override on several countries.
I only had my eyes opened because of a mentor I met during this pre-launch. He was a real leader, a very successful surgeon, who served throughout Asia doing surgeries for children, free of charge. We had combined forces for this pre-launched, and he was using the Networking model to try and help people have a better future. He gave lots of fish, and viewed Networking as a way to teach the people to fish.
After a very successful pre-launch we had enrolled around 3-4,000 people between us in our first 45 days with the company. Then, two years ago this Thanksgiving, we were in the Philippines together, and began wondering why so few people could make money. For the first time in over 15 years in MLM I began to look at the model from the bottom up and tried to figure out ways to get poverty-stricken people into a profitable situation.
When we took our eyes off of our own success, and looked at the model from the new persons perspective, we were totally astounded with the sheer mathematics of MLM compensation plans. The $35 a month these folks were paying to remain active, and on autoship, equated to around 20-25% of their monthly income. It would be an equivalent of an American being on a $1,000 a month autoship requirement.
I felt sick as I realized that the model I had helped introduce to my friends, and family in the Philippines would devastate them financially, and the rest is history. I have since done extensive research and personally analyzed somewhere close to around 100 MLM compensation plans, trying to find those that are viable, and those that are not. The deeper I get, the more ‘dirt’ I find. My goal now is to used my experience and knowledge to educate others. My eyes have been opened, and now I am joining forces with like-minded people to educate the masses.
I’m glad your are here Brent and want to thank you for helping me better understand compensation plans.
Brent, Thank you for sharing your story!! I think it is really interesting that you built in thrid world countries. About a year before I joined team my dad and i took a mission trip to a socialist island nation about seventy miles south of Florida. I would listen to the speakers on stage say that anyone can make it. I would think of my friends that I met down there. I would wonder if the govenment would allow the people of this nation to gain wealth, how would the they accept it. Would they understand the concept of possibily being wealthy. Would they grasp the idea of building a busness. I know and understand that there is quite a different mind set in the Philippines then where I had served. Where I was the govenment had full control over the people. Everything is rationed food, clothing, and sanitary items. They are able to purchase things on the black market but it is very expensive and most don’t have it. So to wrap it up thanks for sharing your story and touching on something that i always wondered if it had been tried.
das,
You are more than welcome. I think that poor compensation plans are indicative of the industry. MLM in its current state is not even a business opportunity, unless of course, you own the company, or have learned to position yourself at the top.
Fix the comp plans, the rest will take care of itself. Team was born because the Amway plan didn’t pay well.
Brent~
Thanks for sharing some of your story, it shows exactly why we are all here on many levels and why people are so convicted to informing people; of the whole truth. People wonder why others get passionate and downright angry at the terror done to millions of people through this so-called path to your financial freedom; all in the name of God and the almighty dollar. But yet it is twisted into some noble cause, under a religious guise, propaganda and is claimed; as a viable ‘business opportunity’ for every single human being on the planet.
It has been my experience, that everything that represents ‘Freedom’ is an oxymoron when involved with building this MLM ‘business opportunity;’ it enslaves people and is a dictatorship, which is completely controlled by the top, right down to the information, you will read and listen to, the clothes you wear, the people you can and cannot talk to, and to how you will feel and act. It is confirmed by reading the P&P’s and is by no means any stretch of the imagination. To call anyone ‘independent’/ own your own business, is a flat out lie. All information and orders come through the heiarchy..top..down. They want all the tax breaks and benefits of a big corporation, but none of the laws or rules to have to follow.
The defenders like to blame, the surviors and outsiders, which it is in your face obvious; for every designed flaw there is. It has been proven over and over again, it is designed for the largest majority, in most cases 99% to fail. And those at the Top know this beyond a shadow of doubt, but yet continue to lie through their teeth that everyone can and will ‘make it’, if they just follow the ‘proven, duplicatable system’, and do what the top does.
From years of experience and clearing of the fog…there is no doubt in my mind it is nothing more than money being stolen from the bottom, by applying some ‘good lies’ and circulating to the Top. It is a disgrace and is damaging to all humanity, including those at the top, they become addicted to the greed. So on goes the battle….
even as far back as the days of zig ziglar, jerry devay? ( will check name ) amway, pyramid,
mlm, etc…. whatever u wanna call it……..
it all should all be legally outlawed, banned forever………….
more later……..
I keep being told by my upline that this isnt a scam. People make money and its guaranteed. My friend has a friend who we have seen speak at our tuesday night meetings that she is a perfect example why LIFE works. Except i saw the downfall. When team launched in 11-1-11 i had 600 pv which is 15% return. December was the same. Then january came. Well our pv was cut in half and it seemed like everybody was off subscription. Thats when i decided to cancel mine. I was behind in my reading and the cds about put me to sleep. Thank goodness im only about 300 into this or i would be mad. Im sure this works somehow. And i dont think that its a scam. But what bothers me is my brother is dropping out of school for this LIFE. He was getting his engineering degree in computers. Now he is going to be pushing a company i feel is unblblical and wrong. I feel it s a get rich scheam and people are being taken advantage of to get orrion and chris rich. You might get rich in the process but really it scars me that people i love are going down with this business and i fear the worst. Honestly i hope it works just so my brother who is 40000 in debt dosnt get screwed. But also i was glad i was smart. Saw the light and got off subscription. Honestly there has to be some way to sue these guys. Get them out of business so they cant screw anymore people over. Once i heard orrion was once apart of amway i knew right away this was just another branch off of it. Where else would he have gotten the idea? POP life. No. He put a spin on amway. And amway dose work it just takes a ton of work. This is the same way. Im just not willing to put in the work and quit my job for it. Ill go to school and work so i can eat.
Stories like that break my heart — about your brother that is; I admire and respect the choice you made to get out before getting in too deep. What a tragic waste for your brother to drop out of school (and go into debt for LIEf). It’s a squandered opportunity and a choice he will no doubt regret someday. I hope you can find a way to change his mind. My friends here can help you. They’ve all been where you and your brother are now.
Thanks for joining the discussion.
[Editor's Note: corrected misspelling.]
You did a great job getting out! However, this is far from a get rich quick scheme. That would imply that you can get rich fast. It is 100% a scam though. Very interesting to see the peoples PV drop like it did. Welcome to the site I hope you can spread the word because your honesty is very much appreciated.
[Editor's Note: corrected misspelling.]
Devin~
What have they told you is “guaranteed?” I am glad you are done and saved yourself tens of thousands. How much did you make? That is some serious attrition rate at lightening speed I might add, the people didn’t even “stick” longer than 90 days?
I hope you can help your brother stay in college, that is so sad, he has no idea the regret that is going to cause him. If you can show him the Lief Policies and Proceedures and Comp Plan Anaylsis on here that is where the “guarantee” comes in; guaranteed losses that is! Also read Hope he takes the P&P seriously; your brother could “lose” his income and whole team if you or any family member have a negative opinion or “embarrass” the team Lief in anyway. Did you know this? They stole our income without any notification or reason along with other big leaders on here.
Do you give the P&P when someone gets started in Team Lief? Do they have 2 seperate applications and “business” you sign people up in, such as an application for Team and an application for Life? Does anyone read the P&P when they get started or have they trained you and others to ‘overlook’ it?
Glad you have seen through the scam and I wish you the best with your brother.
Devin- There is some good advice throughout this blog on how to get someone out of the group. I hope you can help your brother see he is wasting his time. It is a shame he quit college to pursue the LIE of residual, passive income, Orrin has perpetuated on thousands. That is a blatant lie as seen in LIFE’s Policies and Procedures. It is also important to note, Orrin and the PC have stolen leaders “residual” incomes and destroyed their own leaders businesses as well. Who in their right mind would waste their time knowing that?
Check out
http://amthrax.wordpress.com/life-team-primer/
http://amthrax.wordpress.com/2011/04/13/beleaguered-boyfriend-asks-for-help/
http://amthrax.wordpress.com/2011/08/22/tyson-from-the-midwest-wants-his-brother-out-of-orrin-woodwards-life/
I wish you good luck. I hope you stick around and read more about the group you were involved with. Glad to see you are using your critical thinking skills and looking at both sides of the information!
UPDATE SCAMWAY DEAN KOSAGE is a MOST WANTED DEADBEAT DAD for his Child Support Obligations to his 15 year old Child. Want to see evidence about this con-man who has gone missing. Eat your heart out:
https://fortress.wa.gov/dshs/csips/mostwanted/frame.asp?action=build_poster&db=default&yr=0&mo=0&item=21&dt=5/17/2012&bi=4333103
Looks like he can’t even pay 1,100 a month and has gone missing.
This comment is better served to be posted and discussed on my various posts about Dean Kosage.
@Devin February 13, 2012 2:48 pm
I could not help to think your statement reflects cognitive dissonance, a common mlm affliction. I will respond (in caps) for your benefit as well as for those who will come later.
Devin said…
I keep being told by my upline that this isnt a scam.
HE KEEPS TELLING YOU SO BECAUSE IT IS
People make money and its guaranteed.
TRUE FOR THE KINGPIN, HOGWASH FOR TEAMMUNIST PEONS
My friend has a friend who we have seen speak at our tuesday night meetings that she is a perfect example why LIFE works.
WRONG METRIC TO EVAL A BUSINESS, GOOD METRIC IF YOU ARE A CULT FOLLOWER
Except i saw the downfall. When team launched in 11-1-11 i had 600 pv which is 15% return. December was the same. Then january came. Well our pv was cut in half and it seemed like everybody was off subscription.
YOU DON’T OWN ANYTHING WITH MLMs SO YOU CANNOT DO ANYTHING ABOUT IT IF THEY CANCEL SUBSCRIPTIONS (AND THEY SHOULD. WHY SHOULD THEY BE THE ONES TO LOSE MORE THAN 300?)
Thats when i decided to cancel mine. I was behind in my reading and the cds about put me to sleep.
THEN YOU DON’T HAVE A COMPETITIVE AND MARKETABLE PRODUCT DO YOU.
Thank goodness im only about 300 into this or i would be mad.
I AGREE. YOU DON’T LIKE THAT YOU HAVE SPENT/LOST THAT MUCH ALREADY. WHO KEPT YOUR 300? WHO COUNTED IT AS THEIR INCOME? NO NEED TO CRY IF DOWNLINES CANCEL THEIR SUBSCRIPTIONS TO STOP BLEEDING CASH, RIGHT?
Im sure this works somehow.
FOR WHO? THE KINGPIN? YES, THE PEONS BELOW, NO IT DOESN’T, THE NUMBERS DON’T LIE FOR MORE THAN 99%+ ADHERENTS.
And i dont think that its a scam.
YOUR THINKING WILL NOT CHANGE LIFE’S FACTS LIKE GRAVITY NOR THAT MLMs ARE A SCAM
But what bothers me is my brother is dropping out of school for this LIFE.
THE BOTHER IS CONFIRMATION DEEP DOWN INSIDE OF YOU THAT YOU ALREADY KNOW THIS IS A SCAM
He was getting his engineering degree in computers. Now he is going to be pushing a company i feel is unblblical and wrong.
COGNITIVE DISSONANCE AND FURTHER CONFIRMATION YOU ALREADY KNOW IT’S A SCAM
I feel it s a get rich scheam and people are being taken advantage of to get orrion and chris rich.
THAT’S WHAT A SCAM IS
You might get rich in the process …
YES IF YOU ARE ORRIN AND HIS CRONIES
…but really it scars me that people i love are going down with this business and i fear the worst.
SIGNS OF COGNITIVE DISSONANCE
Honestly i hope it works just so my brother who is 40000 in debt dosnt get screwed.
MORE SIGNS OF COGNITIVE DISSONANCE. YOUR HOPE WON’T CHANGE FACTS, THAT IT’S A SCAM. SORRY.
But also i was glad i was smart. Saw the light and got off subscription.
SMART TO BE OUT YES, DUMB IF COULD HAVE STAYED IN? YES? SO IT’S A SCAM & IT DOESN’T WORK AND YOU KNOW THAT, THAT’S WHY YOU LEFT.
Honestly there has to be some way to sue these guys. Get them out of business so they cant screw anymore people over.
WHY SUE’EM IF IT WORKS AND IT’S NOT A SCAM? WHICH IS WHICH BUDDY? AND FOR THE RECORD IT’S NOT A BUSINESS. IT’S A SCAM OR A PRETEND BUSINESS, EITHER IS RIGHT.
Once i heard orrion was once apart of amway i knew right away this was just another branch off of it.
SO YOU DO KNOW THIS IS A SCAM
Where else would he have gotten the idea? POP life. No. He put a spin on amway. And amway dose work it just takes a ton of work.
AGAIN IT WORKS ONLY FOR THE OWNERS AND THE KINGPINS, NOT FOR THE THE PEONS WHO DO THE WORK AND PAY THE FORMER TO DO IT. CAN YOU BELIEVE THAT ARRANGEMENT?
This is the same way.
YOU GOT IT!
Im just not willing to put in the work and quit my job for it.
BECAUSE YOU KNOW IT’S A SCAM YOU ARE OPTING TO MAKE THE RIGHT DECISION FOR YOU
Ill go to school and work so i can eat.
A GOOD MOVE!