Skip to content

Joecool: Show Me The Money

August 11, 2008

Joecool has a post worth reading on his web site today. Titled, Quixtar and Amway – Show Me The Money!, he comments how IBOs frequently talk about the business improving themselves as people or brightening their outlook on life.

I say if the side benefit of being in the business makes you a nicer person, helps you treat your wife better, or whatever, that’s a good thing. Don’t get me wrong. But when you registered to the business opportunity, was that what you signed up for, or did you sign up for residual income, a shortcut to retirement, or to avoid being dead or broke by age 65?

I’ll second Joecool’s comment. Did IBOs sign up for a self-improvement class or get into Amway/Quixtar to make some extra money on the side or to replace an existing income stream?

While an IBO, I used to tell people that I haven’t made much money, but that I’ve learned some useful inter-personal communication skills. Looking back, I said that to convince myself that there was something in the business worth staying in for. I know now that I could have gotten those same important skills doing something else and made a ton more money by focusing on my career.

In fact, knowing what I know now about being a Diamond, I am so glad that I was a quitter and failure in this business! Had I done so, I know exactly what I’d be doing today. I would be in charge of motivating a 300+ person organization each and every day of the week. I would constantly be on the lookout for new IBOs to replace the ones that have quit the business. And finally, I’d be wondering to myself, “Where’s the residual income I was told about? This is a fricking full-time job!?!”

I’m writing in this blog to help those who are struggling with the business yet may still be thinking that success is just around the corner. It might be around the corner, but not through this vehicle. Yes, there are those that have succeeded, but — despite what they may say on stage and on tape — that doesn’t mean the path they took will also lead you to success.

A true indicator of the health of your business is the bottom line. Each month, each year, how much are you making and how much is being expensed in the form of tapes, tools, gas, admission fees, KATE, and web site hosting fees?

Here’s my bottom line for my two and a half years in the business:

1997

  • Income: $88
  • Expenses: $3,776

1998

  • Income: $358
  • Expenses: $6,352

1999

  • Income: $110
  • Expenses: $6,620

Some IBOs can’t even say how much they spent in the last month! If the Amway Motivational Organizations (AMO) wanted to do something useful, they should teach basic accounting to their IBOs. Somehow, I don’t think that is ever going to happen.

To IBOs: What’s your bottom line?

27 Comments leave one →
  1. August 11, 2008 1:55 pm

    While I agree with jc’s basic premise, you said, “I know now that I could have gotten those same important skills doing something else….” but the question is WOULD you gotten those skills doing something else? For most people, the answer is no. However, many do go on and apply the newly learned skills to a different effort.

    Do you think a Diamondship would be nearly as much work, the turnover nearly as high, etc., if there was no tool scam bleeding IBO’s dry?

    What are the sources of your losses?

  2. August 11, 2008 2:03 pm

    1. Heck yes, I would have gotten those skills outside of the business. These are skills people should have, and they are not unique to the business.

    2. Yes, I believe a Diamondship would still require motivation of the downline organization and continual replenishment of the IBO base even if there were no tool scam. It might be not as much work or it might be more work. It will still require a significant amount of work.

    3. Mileage, supplies, travel, meals, utilities, and tools.

  3. August 11, 2008 3:20 pm

    Really, what would have CAUSED you to get these skills outside the business? What would have directed you to do this? The point isn’t whether you COULD have done it outside the business, the question is whether you WOULD have done it. In my opinion, the chances are EXTREMELY low you WOULD have done it, although you COULD have done it.

  4. Joecool permalink
    August 11, 2008 3:33 pm

    Many people learn these skills as they get older and deal with others. Many people already possess these skills without quixtar.

    Conversely, many if not most people earn a lot more money after they get out of quixtar and focus on their jobs.

  5. August 11, 2008 4:13 pm

    Tex – You’ll just have to take me for my word when I say I would have *and* have learned these skills outside of the business.

  6. Joecool permalink
    August 11, 2008 4:15 pm

    Amthrax, one important thing to note also, is the reluctance of IBOs to discuss their businesses in any meaningful way, despite being under the cloak of anonymity.

    Why can’t an IBO just say I made $22.50 last month with 3 frontline and no depth. I just started and it looks like I’m on target to hit the goals my upline and I set.

    Instead, we get strange answers or things like I made $6000 a month and I’ve only been active for 6 weeks.

    It seems that upline teaches this strategy.

  7. August 11, 2008 5:05 pm

    It’s simple. People are ashamed of their lack of success. Instead of admitting this, they lie to themselves with statements like, “I’m just getting started,” “success is just around the corner,” or “I only divulge my income to those with a vested interest in my success.”

    I know this because I did it myself until the veil was lifted from my eyes.

  8. August 11, 2008 6:27 pm

    Amthrax,

    If you’re so sure of yourself, I shouldn’t have to “take your word for it”, you would state the REASON why you would have done it anyway.

    jc,

    What I can’t understand is why someone who isn’t even an IBO will repeat the same things over and over again. At least I’m addressing THE big issue and am an active IBO. Shouldn’t you be doing something on the Honolulu “strip?”

  9. Mike permalink
    August 12, 2008 2:19 am

    Tex states “What I can’t understand is why someone who isn’t even an IBO will repeat the same things over and over again. At least I’m addressing THE big issue and am an active IBO.”

    That is the big difference between Tex and folks like JoeCool,Amthrax and thousands of others, You think the business has value, and without the tools scam..it will be better.

    They got out,not because of the tools, but because the business does not work as presented.

  10. August 12, 2008 5:35 am

    Mike,

    The point is, in their experience, the business was presented WITH the tool scam. They have no idea how the dynamics would change without the tool scam, and refuse to consider this factor. They act like a bunch of Eeyores. I think it isn’t only unnecessary to shut down Amway completely, I doubt it is even possible. The UK regulators gave it a good shot, and Amway is back in operation, how could a few bloggers have this effect? Just because you’re angray about something doesn’t mean you can generate whatever effect you want to occur, in your emotional, whiny outrage. Think a little (IQ) and control your emotions a little (EQ), and I think you will come to a different conclusion regarding what is necessary and possible. It is neither necessary or possible to shut down Amway completely, but it is necessary and possible to shut down the tool scam. Just look at the UK, Russia, India, China, etc., and you will find ALL of these countries are going in this direction.

  11. Joecool permalink
    August 12, 2008 9:48 am

    Tex states “What I can’t understand is why someone who isn’t even an IBO will repeat the same things over and over again.
    ———————————————————-

    The irony of this statement is humorous. Not ot mention Tex’s
    trollish behavior has gotten him banned from multiple sites.

  12. August 12, 2008 10:03 am

    Some months can be better than others. Four figures one month may not be the same the next month. But isn’t that the same for most businesses? You want consistency but some months are tough times, and that’s where the money you made five or six months earlier keeps you afloat, and you ride it out and it picks up again.

    It just happens. You think 11.7 Billion for Exxon is going to be a quarter by quarter deal from this point out? Nah, not forever. It’ll dip somewhere (the faster the better!). Same with construction.

    That’s business.

  13. August 12, 2008 12:11 pm

    dig4truth:

    Have you calculated the number of person hours each month in your organization to generate the income? Is the same amount of working being done each month but with differing income results?

  14. Mike permalink
    August 12, 2008 1:58 pm

    Dig, You are very correct in that a business is not always going to be producing at the same level all the time.

    Currently in my job, we have hit the highest bonus possbile for the 8 time in a row..should I spend what I may get on the 9th..No it would be stupid..

    But that is what is taught to many an IBO, to spend it now, but on the business, aka the tools…attending functions etc..

    For Tex…Let me put it this way..Without the tools the business will not work as presented…If the tools were not used..Amway would be a small company with a 10th of what it is now, and it will shrink to a workable level if the tools are removed.

    Even if the tools are free, it will not matter, are the functions, gonna be free?.regardless, it will cost someone, something.

    So what you will have is maybe a direct here or there, working a small part time business..selling soap.

  15. Joecool permalink
    August 12, 2008 2:24 pm

    Agree with Mike. The business itself, other than the online availability, has not changed significantly. Yes, there are partner store products, but these carry very little PV/BV.

    It is the hype and the hope that is being sold. I read the website called fake it till you make it andthe author was backstage and saw what was going on. When he confronted the diamond, he was told how happy the audience was and that you wouldn’t want to take that away from them (not verbatim).

    Never mind that most of them probably lost money due to the BSM expenditures.

  16. August 12, 2008 2:51 pm

    Mike,

    Q: Did I ever mention getting rid of the tools or free tools?

    A: No.

  17. Mike permalink
    August 13, 2008 2:28 am

    Tex states “Mike,

    Q: Did I ever mention getting rid of the tools or free tools?

    A: No”

    From what you have stated as the reason that many IBO’s fail is because of the cost of the tools. You claim that the tools are of value to those wanting to build the business, and if the cost was less, then the business would work.

    You seem to want to connect the failure of the business to the cost of the tools. When in fact the failure of the business is directly connected to a flawed and/or abused business model.

    The point I am making is that the cost of building an Amway business is very high, and the only way to keep people motivated to continue is to lie to them via tools, and provided faux emotional reinforcment via functions and meetings.

    What is intresting is that you are wanting to use the same tools, that are being sold by those you call LCK’s..It is the message they are selling that is corrupt.

    I also find it fascinating that you are spending so much time debating the tool scam at all.

    Just build your business, and make your money, and damn it…enjoy your life..stop using the LCK as an excuse.

  18. August 13, 2008 5:35 am

    What do you mean by “the failure of the business is directly connected to a flawed and/or abused business model?”

    I agree the cost of building an Amway business is very high, and the major problem is tool prices.

    What lies are on tools? What “faux emotional enforcement” are you talking about? The only factors I see with these issues are related to tool prices. Lower the tool prices and the above issues are greatly reduced or disappear altogether.

    The messages on the tools for the most part are okay, some of the over the top wealth statements are based on the tool scam and easily overcome with proper training. Most of the messages are consistent with the outside book principles.

    The reason I’m debating the tool system is because it’s a scam.

    I could build my business, but it’s not worth the time, effort, and money if the U.S. gets hammered like the UK business did over the past year or so.

  19. Joecool permalink
    August 13, 2008 10:34 am

    Mike good point. Never thought of that angle. tex just using the cost of tools to justify his failure to be able to build the business. Maybe it’s a intellectual issue.

    From the QIAC blog:

    Tex: But at least I’m smarter than a piece of crap

  20. Mike permalink
    August 13, 2008 2:51 pm

    Tex asks “What do you mean by “the failure of the business is directly connected to a flawed and/or abused business model?”

    The Plan, the 6-4-2, the buy from yourself and get others to do the same, being an independent business owner, Blindly following one’s upline..the entire way the Amway business is conducted.

    Tex ask “What lies are on tools? What “faux emotional enforcement” are you talking about?”

    I meant to write “faux emotional reinforcement”. Lies, like one has to go to the meeting, functions, buy tapes in order to be sucessfull. The tear jerking stories, the “if I can do it, you can do it..the “We were not happy till I joined the business” statements…etc..

    Tex states very clearly “I could build my business, but it’s not worth the time, effort, and money..” and that is followed by and “if the US is hammered like the UK..” (I did not want to take the quote out of context).

    So by that comment, you have no business or it is not growing?

  21. Mike permalink
    August 13, 2008 3:06 pm

    Joecool states “Mike good point. Never thought of that angle. tex just using the cost of tools to justify his failure to be able to build the business. Maybe it’s a intellectual issue.”

    From what I can understand from what Tex has stated on numerous blogs. He seems to have gotten involved in Amway, but after losing a lot of money, he belives that the reason for the problem is the “kingpins”.

    And if they can be removed or at least their profit from the tools, then all will be right with the business. He still belives the business can work, and the tools are valid.

    What Amthrax is stated is that the money loss is more than the income, regardless, even if you took the tools cost out of the equation,..one would also have to take the “purpose of those tools as well” which is to keep folks in and buying products.

    Some IBO’s talk of making around 200.00 a month in profit, before tools cost.

    200.00 a month is not bad..but is it worth the time and effort..

    How many folks would gather around, to make 200.00 a month…considering the amount of work..

  22. August 13, 2008 4:38 pm

    Mike,

    The Plan, —- what about the plan?
    the 6-4-2, —- what about the 6-4-2, it’s an ILLUSTRATION
    the buy from yourself and get others to do the same, —- you can also teach the retailing rules
    being an independent business owner, —- you want to be able to do ANYTHING? Name a business where you can.
    Blindly following one’s upline..the entire way the Amway business is conducted. —- would you prefer to follow your downline?
    Lies, like one has to go to the meeting, functions, buy tapes in order to be sucessfull. —- you would prefer sitting on your couch to be successful?The tear jerking stories, the “if I can do it, you can do it..the “We were not happy till I joined the business” statements…etc.. —- you haven’t read many biographies about people that had NOTHING to do with Amway, have you?
    So by that comment, you have no business or it is not growing? —- I have a business, and it’s growing.

  23. Joecool permalink
    August 13, 2008 5:09 pm

    The illustration (in real life) falls apart from the first step. Many IBOs discover that 100 PV costs a lot of money and quit. The ones who remain, mostly end up not being able to sponsor anyone – and quit.

    Tex wrote: I have a business, and it’s growing.

    Joe says: Yeah, it’s growing smaller or it’s growing cobwebs.

  24. Joecool permalink
    August 13, 2008 5:28 pm

    tex, it’s a 2-5 year plan. You’ve been in the bidnez for 15 years never reaching higher than 1000 PV.

    That tells the story right there.

  25. August 13, 2008 5:46 pm

    Tex’s comments are now being moderated. Let’s stay on topic. Thank you.

Trackbacks

  1. Happy Friday: Goal Setting « Amthrax
  2. P/L Statement from Gina « Amthrax

Leave a Reply. Because your thoughtful opinions are valued, you are encouraged to add a comment to this discussion. Don't be offended if your comments are edited for clarity or to keep out questionable matters. Off-topic and inflammatory comments may be deleted. Comments on this website are the sole responsibility of their writers. The accuracy, completeness, veracity, honesty, exactitude, factuality and politeness of comments are not guaranteed.

Fill in your details below or click an icon to log in:

WordPress.com Logo

You are commenting using your WordPress.com account. Log Out / Change )

Twitter picture

You are commenting using your Twitter account. Log Out / Change )

Facebook photo

You are commenting using your Facebook account. Log Out / Change )

Google+ photo

You are commenting using your Google+ account. Log Out / Change )

Connecting to %s

%d bloggers like this: