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Tape Recording Income Claims

August 25, 2008

Note-taking by IBOs was a common occurrence at weekly Rhino sessions, monthly Opens, and Major Functions. Many, including myself, furiously wrote down every key point a speaker would say on stage. Other people used tape recorders to capture a Diamond’s Nuts and Bolts presentation or a Diamond couple’s life story. A handful of times during an Open or Function, I heard that the speaker was cutting a new tape that would soon be on Standing Order (SOT). Sure enough, a few months later, the tape would arrive in the mail for IBOs’ listening pleasure:

  • What Do They Know?: Tim and Lisa Leets (U-T053)
  • Dreams in the Attic: Craig Holiday (C-T3124)
  • Quitting Is Not An Option: ??? Alexander (C-T3096)
  • Are You Stepping Up?: Nick Carbonaro (C-T3142)
  • Stretch Your Dream: Clarke Broome (C-T3141)

Note: If you opened the plastic wrapping, you could not return it to your upline Diamond for a refund.

Critics have pointed out that they heard a speaker say from stage some ridiculous lifestyle claim only to be challenged by a supporter to come up with the exact tape, CD or MP3 with that sound bite. Unfortunately, most critics toss out their tools the minute they decide to leave the business. They do this because they are so fed up with their experience that they want nothing from the business to be within their sight. Additionally, critics have little desire to pay even $1 for boatloads of tools that might have cost thousands of dollars new.

Memory can be a tricky thing. There are things that I remember like they were yesterday, and there are events that I can barely recall. With all of the sound editing done today to produce a tape, it’s very likely that the proof no longer exists; it was wiped out with the click of the mouse when producing next month’s SOT. Thus, it would be very interesting to be able to compare the audio from the actual Open with what was eventually recorded onto the SOT.

Second Wind SOT

Second Wind SOT

One of my favorite tapes when I was an IBO was Second Wind (C-T6002) by then-Emerald Jeff Applebaum. Near the end of his Emerald Life story, he described how he paid cash for his red Lexus SC400 (or SC300). Now, a luxury car is still nowhere in the price range of a jet or yacht, but it’s still a significant cash-only purchase! A Lexus SC400 brand-new in 1997 cost over $50,000.

I’m not singling out Applebaum as a bad guy here — he says on the tape that he was sick of driving around in a junky old car and wanted to buy the Lexus as a reward for hitting a new pin level. Personally, I would like to believe that he had the money to pay cash for the car. I am just pointing out that these types of purchasing claims were made at the Emerald level. Imagine what types of claims were (and still are) made at the Diamond and above level!

Between 1997 and 1999, IBOs were taught to say that an average Emerald made $75,000 a year and a Diamond would average $150,000 a year. Assume for a moment that Applebaum was not an average Emerald but an exceptional one making near Diamond income of $150,000. That’s still 1/3 of his annual Amway income for a car! Of course, Applebaum was still working at his engineering job in the San Francisco Bay Area and could easily have been making additional income through tools and speaking appearances — assuming INA Leader Jim Floor so ordained1.

Lexus SC400 (2000 model)

Lexus SC400 (2000 model)

All said, just because I feel Applebaum was able to pay cash for his car does not mean that every Diamond says and does the same. I have no doubt that some critics have heard some pretty ridiculous income claims from System leaders on stage.

People get into the Amway business for many reasons. One reason is money, and a great way to show how much money can be made in the business is to cart out out expensive objects: cars, boats, planes, jewelry and homes. These are tangible things that IBOs can relate to and wish for2.

Critics like to point out when Diamonds fall into foreclosure and lose their dream homes. They do it not because they are vindictive sore losers; they do it because they were hurt by the lies of these Diamonds and don’t want other people to experience the same thing that they went through.

I ask former IBOs and current ones the following questions:

  1. How realistic are the Diamond lifestyles being portrayed on stage?
  2. Time has shown that a number of them are not representative of reality. What happened to them and why?
  3. What else might be exaggerated on stage?
  4. Why do some Diamonds feel the need to embellish their lifestyles to IBOs?

Update August 25, 13:49: Joecool has posted his thoughts on the cash-only claims from Amway leaders.


1 The Christian, ultra right-wing ideologies of INA Leader Jim Floor will be a topic for a future post.

2 Those that aren’t motivated by material things might like to hear the stories of how a Diamond relationship is better than ever or that the couple has time to spend with their family. This post is not directed at those people.

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76 Comments leave one →
  1. August 25, 2008 6:13 am

    Amthrax, as I pointed out in the earlier comment, Duncan has NOT fallen into foreclosure. Larsen has had a letter up for a couple of days from a real estate expert explaining it is a preforeclosure – something clearly stated at the top of the original documents Larsen posted. Why are you still spreading the myth it’s a foreclosure?

    You also say, with a link to my site, “Critics have pointed out that they heard a speaker say from stage some ridiculous lifestyle claim only to be challenged by a supporter to come up with the exact tape, CD or MP3 with that sound bite. “

    This is a completly dishonest misrepresentation of the discussion. Pokerpooner et.al were claiming that Diamonds paying cash for mansions and planes was a normal modus operandi, or at least claimed as much on stage. There was no “exact tape, CD or MP3” required, since from their explanation, this would have existed on MANY, MANY tapes/cds/etc.

    The conversation over on Qblog confirms this, with them saying that Diamonds claim to “always pay cash” for such things.

    I just asked for one example of something which, if what they say is true, there should be literally thousands available.

    Isn’t that a reasonable request?

  2. August 25, 2008 7:56 am

    I only now read your comment about the pre-foreclosure. I have updated the site to only include the link to the Shores foreclosure article on Amquix.

  3. August 25, 2008 7:58 am

    As I mention on my about page, I comment mainly from my personal experience in the business and secondarily from my observations about the business today. After reading the thread on your site, I was compelled to write this article, pointing out one example of an cash-only purchasing claim that I clearly remember listening to.

  4. August 25, 2008 9:22 am

    If you’re trying to point out that sometimes Diamonds and above make claims they buy stuff with cash, well, yes, they do.

    Heck, my upline bought his huge house on the beach with cash. He was however a Crown Ambassador in one country and god knows what else in many other countries.

    Not some exaggerated claim – a reality. But note: not a Diamond, a Crown Ambassador.

    The Emerald example you gave seems to fit the same mold, a perfectly reasonable claim. From what you say he had his engineering income, plus he built an Amway Emeraldship on the side. You say the car cost about $50,000 and that he wanted to buy it as a reward for hitting a new pin level.

    In addition to the normal Emerald income he most likely would have qualified for some type of new Emerald bonus, which are typically at least $20K. In the US at the moment, with the right growth it’s something like $150K over 2 years.

    So him paying cash for a $50,000 car is not something fanciful or an excessive claim. It’s more than possible for a new Emerald who is still working their existing job.

    On my site it was being claimed it was typical for Diamonds (note, Diamonds – not Crown Ambassadors or Triple Diamonds etc) to claim they paid cash for everything, including mansions and jets.

    I find that hard to believe and would like some evidence for it.

  5. Joecool permalink
    August 25, 2008 9:59 am

    I heard it many times in functions. Diamonds, not necessarily
    EDCs and above, teach how they pay for everything in cash, and you can too, if you will just follow the system. They showed charts of how much interest you would pay if you finance and house and how foolish it was to have a mortgage.

    I do not claim that all diamonds or groups teach this, but my LOS was a major one, thus the people who witnessed this teaching was probably in the tens of thousands.

    But I guess to IBOfightback, tens of thousands is insignificant in relation to all IBOs right?

  6. August 25, 2008 10:39 am

    In 2003 there were 830,000 IBOships. A seminar with 10,000 attendees represents maybe 6,000 IBOships (many are couples, plus there’ll be some prospects)

    That’s less than 1% of North American IBOs and less than 1% of 1% of Amway globally.

    Clearly, even “tens of thousands” is an “insignificant” number in relation to all IBOs

    From another perspective, your “major LOS” involves around 58 diamonds and above. On Amway Wiki we have so far identified over 820 diamonds and above for Amway United States and Amway Canada.

    Your “major LOS” represents no more than about 7% of Amway Diamonds and above.

  7. Joecool permalink
    August 25, 2008 11:53 am

    IBOfightback, are you claiming that WWDB holds only one function? Mike Woods, was an EDC and his functions were held in Hawaii for about 12,000 people. I was under the Duncans and our function was at the Rose garden in Portland which held about 25,000, Bill Hawkins had his functions in Minneapolis, Dave Serven had his own functions, and a host of other WWDB diamonds held their own functions.

    You always downplay the problem. For one thing, even if WWDB diamonds were 7% of the “teachers” of this nonsense, you know quite well that WWDB is more than likely not the only groups that teach this.

    WWDB is an offshoot of Britt/Yager, so quite possible 40% or more of IBOs may be subject to these bad business practices but that’s ok because you personally don’t witness it where you live.

  8. August 25, 2008 12:46 pm

    Typical of IBOFB.

    Spin, spin, spin.

    So, Joecool sat in a function where Diamonds, EDCs and other top-guns were present, and these kind of teachings – “houses should always be bought for cash” – are taught.

    So, by IBOFB’s retarded logic, ONLY 12000 IBOs have heard this. And, UNLESS it is on a tape/CD, there is no evidence that this is being taught.

    NEVERMIND – that the TOP leadership of this AQMO is present when this garbage is taught at a Function. Would it be reasonable to conclude that the same thing is taught at other functions too?

    How about the fact that OTHER AQMOs, like BWW and Yager also are guilty of this? I personally, have heard this at many an open, and rally. Even at a few functions that I have been to.

    Another point. IBOFB is trying to desperately SPIN an otherwise unflattering picture.

    ‘PRE’-foreclosure vs. ‘FORECLOSURE’.

    Garbage. The fact that he is in ‘PRE’-foreclosure indicates that he is behind on his payments. Now, whether it will eventually go into ‘foreclosure’, or he will be BAILED out by someone else, is irrelevant.

    Another important point.

    When you teach people that “buying a house with a mortgage is a bad idea, because you pay 3 times the cost of the house in interest” – which by the way, is straight from the Robert-Kiyosaki-MORONIFICATION school-of-thought – how in the hell do you justify an ‘INTEREST-ONLY’ loan which is what Mr.Genius, Greg Duncan seems to have on these properties? Do you know the amount of interest you end up paying on an ‘interest-only’ loan?

  9. joecool permalink
    August 25, 2008 12:48 pm

    BTW, did Bridgett name the “Many” diamonds who claim to rent their homes?

    It’s sort of like how diamonds used to claim nobody made a profit from tools and so and so LOS was “non profit”. Diamonds used to claim they paid for homes and jets in cash but now they say they rent?

    IBOFB, you’re slipping a bit.

  10. August 25, 2008 1:19 pm

    I’ve no idea how many functions WWDB. Unless you went to all the other functions, you don’t know what was said at them either.

    Aside from which, that’s why I provided the Diamond count as well, as another estimate of the size of WWDB compared to Amway North America.

    According to the Yager Diamond checks posted on Amquix, Yager and his downline (of which Puryear isn’t) made up, in the 90s, no more than about 10% of Amway North America (take the checks, Amway revenue, and the Diamond bonus and work it out)

    Very large organisations and large numbers of people, but even together I doubt they make anywhere near 40% of Amway North America.

    Tell me one Diamond that has said they paid cash for a jet, let alone the all-encompassing “Diamonds”.

    There are thousands of Diamonds, as noted somewhere around a thousand have reached that level in the US alone. Your persistent use of language that implies it’s a homogenous group, and that one or two Diamonds saying they do something means it’s applicable to all is simply laughable.

  11. Joecool permalink
    August 25, 2008 1:38 pm

    I distinctly remember being told that all homes and cars were paid for in cash. I am not certain about the jets.

    But I do remember one thing for sure. Our upline platinum said that a certain diamond paid for the jet in cash.

    Regardless, we kow that apparently, even Greg Duncan, a triple diamond did not pay for his homes in cash. There;s no (pre)foreclosure if the house is paid for.

  12. Mike permalink
    August 25, 2008 1:59 pm

    We can chase what diamond said what for a long time.

    Crown Paul Miller stated that he spent, around $80,000 in one day, on a lot beside a house he was building. He did not want anyone building beside him, it was on a golf course, so he also had to buy a membership as well, so he plopped down more cash, etc. He spoke of this as if he was paying this “out of his pocket”.

    Regardless if he paid cash or credit ..who cares..good for him.

    But the discussion is about those crowns, those upper level diamonds. When they claim to be out of debt, to owe no one, and then later it is found out that they are in fact in debt.

    Had the crown, stated that he bought a house, with a large downpayment and will have it paid off in two years..etc..

    And he had to foreclose at least he had been honest. Or that he had to sell them, either way..no big deal

    The point of this issue, is when someone makes a claim about being at a level that can afford them to be debt free, and yet find out they are indebt. There is a problem.

  13. August 25, 2008 2:23 pm

    Mike, I agree and disagree. Outright deceit, like the case of the IBS platinum in the UK whose testimonial on their website said he was making an “executive income”, whereas it was apparently only a few hundred bucks a year – that’s a MAJOR problem. Deceit will nearly always come back to bite you.

    But just because you *can* be debt free doesn’t necessarily mean you *choose* to be. Just like there can be sensible reasons to rent rather than buy, and vice versa, there can be sensible reasons to borrow rather than pay cash.

    Again though, the issue that I raised on my site wasn’t whether some Diamonds exaggerate or even deceive, I’m sure some do. The issue was some critics claiming things as “the norm” for Diamonds when there is no way they can justify such a claim. Further more, the discussion was explicitly NOT about “those crowns, the upper level diamonds”. It was about Diamonds, plain old vanilla Diamonds.

    Again, can anyone name a single Diamond … not EDC, not Crown etc etc… a DIAMOND that claims to have paid cash for a jet?

    Joecool – you say your platinum told you a “certain diamond” paid cash for a jet. Why didn’t you name the diamond?

  14. Joecool permalink
    August 25, 2008 2:34 pm

    My platinum named a diamond who said their jet was paid in cash. I didn’t name the diamond because I cannot remember (for sure), which diamond it was.

    I I do recall, plain old vanilla diamonds giving the speeches about paying cash for everything, and apparently couseling or advising the same downline. Why else would my former sponsor make the statement about not wanting to buy a home until he had enough cash?

  15. August 25, 2008 3:02 pm

    ok, that’s 2 of you, both with WWDB claiming the same thing. On the other hand, another WWDBer has provided me with an MP3 of a WWDB EDC talking about how they rented their house all the way to EDC.

    So I have 2 folk saying one thing, with no evidence to back it up, and another saying another thing, and backing it up.

    Why else would you former sponsor make the statement about not wanting to buy a home until he had enough cash?

    ummm … perhaps because HE didn’t want to go into debt buying a house. Doesn’t mean it’s a common teaching.

    Can anyone even name a diamond who has a personal jet?

  16. Joecool permalink
    August 25, 2008 3:24 pm

    IBOFB, I’m sure I’m not one of a rare breed that heard of the houses paid for in cash. As I said, I could care less if they rented or financed their homes. But look at the motive here.

    The diamonds almost brag how much cash they have. Follwo our system and you can have what we have. Pay for your homes in cash, why pay the bank all that interest?

    They do it to entice people to join the business.

    I don’t know of who currently owns a jet, but as I recall, the Duncans either shared or both owned a jet, Wolgamott, and Puryear. I don’t recall which one said they paid off a jet in cash. As I said, it doesn’t matter if its’ true.

    As for your one MP3, as I recall, Bridgett said she heard “many” diamonds speak about renting. Did she mean the diamonds rented or the downline should rent? As I recall that thread, she nevver mentioned any names of thes diamonds who spoke about renting.

    In my time in WWDB, many diamonds spoke about extravagance, very abundantly. I even remember Bill Hawkins bragging about his several thousand dollar a month fuel bills in the winters
    (He lives or used to line in Minnesota). He spoke about having his heater warm the house to 80 degrees in January (or something like that). Point is he was not concerned about the bill because he was rolling in cash.

    These stories of extravagance were the focus of many meetings. Maybe some teaching changed. Afterall, they taught that NOBODY made money on tools back in my days as well. Apparently much of these teachings remain today.

  17. Joecool permalink
    August 25, 2008 3:55 pm

    ibofightback
    Aug 22nd, 2008 at 10:26 pm
    Pokerpooner, the average income for Founders EDC and above is over a million dollars a year.

    And that’s just from Amway income! I asked before – do you think they hide it under their bed? Or do you think perhaps they invest it and make it *bigger*?

    Even so, let’s just halve it for these guys – $500,000/yr (and that’s also assuming they have no businesses outside the US – many large US leaders have separate platinum, emerald and diamond business abroad as well).

    Are you telling me someone earning half a million bucks a year can’t afford to live in a “mansion” (however that is defined)?? They can’t afford to lease or take fractional ownership or even outright purchase of a jet? here’s a bunch of cessna jets for sale, many you can get for less than $2million. Someone with an income of $500K+ a year could easily get a loan to buy one, if they wanted to.

    =========================================================

    See IBOFB, that’s how you twist the truth. Noboday said diamonds cannot possibly afford homes and jets, but the issue is whether or not they paid them off in cash because that’s what they claimed in functions, in front of tens of thousands of IBOs – who were told they can do the same if they will follow the “proven” system.

  18. Mike permalink
    August 25, 2008 4:54 pm

    I don’t know of any diamond that has bought a jet with cash, but then again, I have not spoken to all diamonds, so there could be?

    IBO states “But just because you *can* be debt free doesn’t necessarily mean you *choose* to be. Just like there can be sensible reasons to rent rather than buy, and vice versa, there can be sensible reasons to borrow rather than pay cash.”

    Just curious what would those sensible reasons be to rent, when one could buy the item….unless one is trying out a product, on a rent to buy option, and then regardless, would they still be in a postion to back out, or wish to not have to commit to a purchase that they would have to get rid of later.

    Regardless, the claims made by Crowns as well as other lower lever diamonds, tend to put “emphasis” on what they can do with the money they have earned. How they like to spend cash on the deal.

  19. August 25, 2008 5:16 pm

    Joecool,
    Shall I, just like I did with pokerpooner talk about one of YOUR upline Diamonds renting?

    That would be Brad Duncan. They rented until EDC.

    By the way, the Portland Rose Garden, set up “end stage” like an FED or Family Reunion would be set up, holds no more than 15,000 people, not 25,000 as you claim.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rose_Garden_(arena)

    You have other errors in your comments, Joecool. I believe the last time I corrected each and every one of your claims was over a two-month period, about a year ago, over at Opportunity Zone, and then you magically disappeared from that site.

    Hmmmm.

    No worries about me repeating such activities. I am way too excited about my life NOW, then talk with someone who chooses to be stuck in 1996.

    G’day!

    🙂

  20. August 25, 2008 6:07 pm

    So far JoeCool has mentioned

    Brad Wolgamott
    Brad & Greg Duncan
    Ron Puryear
    Bill Hawkins

    All in an effort to answer my request regarding a DIAMOND.

    None of these folk are Diamonds. They all have significantly larger businesses than Diamonds, and significantly larger incomes than the $146,000 average Diamond income used to justify the claim that these things can’t be afforded by Diamonds.

    Noboday said diamonds cannot possibly afford homes and jets

    I’ll say it then – there’s no way an average Diamond could afford to pay cash for a jet, not a decent house either.

    Mike – google “rent vs buy”, there’s lots of discussion. NY Times even has a snazzy calculator.

  21. August 25, 2008 6:11 pm

    By the way JC, Rose Garden holds no more than 15,000 when setup “end stage” ala FED.

    Just can’t help yourself can you?

    I on the other hand should help myself and go back to ignoring your BS.

  22. Joecool permalink
    August 25, 2008 6:27 pm

    IBOFB, Wolgamott for example, was a diamond and then turned EDC when I was an IBO. I believe Greg Duncan may have been a new EDC and went double when I was still around the biz. Ron Puryear I believe was a double at the time.

    The Rose garden may hold 15,000, but when the floor is crammed full of seats, I estimated it held about 18,000 or more. The end of the arena wasn’t completely closed up. They had big screen TVs set up so IBOs near the back of the stage could view the speakers.

    Again, you’re swaying the debate. We know that some of these diamonds didn’t buy all their stuff in cash. Did Bridgett name the “many” that she heard of?

    You aren’t from the US or WWDB and you sit here trying to discredit what I saw and heard. Better yet, why don’t you prove these diamonds paid for everything in cash?

    Oh, and one more tidbit for you. When I was an IBO, I also
    witnessed live, when some of these very diamonds said WWDB was exploding, was the BEST LOS and WWDB diamonds made at least 3 ties more than any other LOS. With that kind of leadership, how can you go wrong?

    Unfortunately, I don’t own tapes to any of these functions anymore otherwise I would post the trascript.

  23. Joecool permalink
    August 25, 2008 6:31 pm

    IBOFB, this is what your Rose garden link says:

    The arena has a capacity of 20,630 spectators when configured for basketball.

    So when one end is closed for the stage, those seats are made up by lining up chairs where the basketball court and sidelines would have been, as they do for a concert. Thus the arena had about the capacity of of about 20,000 or so for an event.

    What was your point?

  24. Joecool permalink
    August 25, 2008 6:35 pm

    Sorry Amthrax, one more point. At a major function, WWDB showed a video of mansions, fancy cars, golf clubs, jets. jetskis, cars, designer clothes, jewelry. And the video was set to the song called “I wanna be rich”. I think this is it:

    http://www.onehitwondercentral.com/artistdetail.cfm?id=41

    There was no mention of Amway supplying any of this as a benefit. It was go diamond and come join us.

  25. Mike permalink
    August 25, 2008 7:08 pm

    The rent vs buy choice is a non issue, but thanks for the link, nonetheless.

    However, I don’t recall anyone, diamond or above, mention renting anything, well there was the time a group rented a plane for a weekend, but I don’t have that tape to back that up.

    Again and I think you will agree, that some diamonds and above have over stated their income and have presented the illusion of ownership of some high priced items.

    Did I read that post right, now the discussion has gone to debating the seating capacity of an arena..wow!

  26. August 26, 2008 12:37 am

    Mike,
    The discussion is not about the seating capacity as much as it is joecool saying things that are not accurate.

    First, Woods was not an EDC in 1996 when joecool was in the biz.

    And hasn’t joecool stated that he had to fly to the mainland for major functions? If that is correct, then so did all of Woods’ group. So joecool throws out 12,000 people here and 25,000 people there (as if they are two different groups of people, which they aren’t), and then referencing an arena that can’t even hold 25,000 people, he is exaggerating the numbers—the exact thing that this post is saying that the Diamonds do.

    THAT’S the point of “debating the seating capacity of an arena”.

    The guy was in the business for less than a year,12 freakin’ years ago and clams to know the @#$% he’s talking about?

    That’s the point, Mike.

    But all this is just a waste of time because it’s like trying to teach a mute person to sing!

    And now you have “Amthrax”, another winner without a name, jumping on the bandwagon with his experience from TEN YEARS ago.

    Un-flippin-believable.

    LOL.

    😉

  27. Mike permalink
    August 26, 2008 1:49 am

    Bridgett,

    The topic of the discussion is about diamonds and above making claims about the business and then later it is found that there is a contradiction.

    An example is that it is stated that one of the benefits of building an Amway business, is to become debt free, to be able to not owe anyone, to be able to “retire” from a job and become independent and not only have dreams but to actually afford to acheive them.

    A very strong reason to become involved in this or any business.

    So would you agree that some diamonds and above have over stated their income and have presented the illusion of ownership of some high priced items?

  28. August 26, 2008 6:48 am

    Bridgett,

    Riddle me this.

    Big pins teach this garbage. AND/OR – they are present at the opens/functions where it is taught.

    Is it reasonable, then, to conclude that it is a “system-wide” teaching?

    Secondly, you seem to be missing the point. You state that Brad Duncan ‘rented’ until he hit the EDC pin. That is NOT the point. The point being made in this post is NOT whether Diamonds (or above) ‘rent’, but whether they are hypocrites – i.e. what they TEACH, what they TELL their downline – that becoming a Diamond will provide the kind of income that will enable one to buy a house for cash, AND that houses SHOULD only be bought for cash – which by the way is the most ASININE advice ever, straight from the Robert-MORON-Kiyosaki school-of-thought.

    And can you give us a list of the MANYMANY Diamonds YOU have heard, who TALK about renting”?

    I have NEVER heard that. We have had a bunch of gung-ho IBOs debate on the Quixtar-blog – not a single one of them, as far as I can recall said anything about Diamonds suggesting that renting is better than owning. All we ever heard was that houses should be bought for cash. I have attended quite a few opens/rallies and a few functions. NEVER heard it. Seen Double Diamonds come through. Even spent an ‘EXTENDED’ amount of time with a group last year.

  29. August 26, 2008 6:58 am

    Bridgett – “The guy was in the business for less than a year,12 freakin’ years ago and clams to know the @#$% he’s talking about?

    That’s the point, Mike.

    And now you have “Amthrax”, another winner without a name, jumping on the bandwagon with his experience from TEN YEARS ago.”

    Bridgett,

    Are you suggesting that EVERYTHING has ‘changed’ now? ALL is well in Ama-world?

    My experience suggests otherwise.

    Secondly.

    EVEN IF. EVEN IF, the big-pins are NO LONGER teaching nonsensical stuff like, “Houses should be bought for cash” – doesn’t the fact that they USED TO teach that, make them HYPOCRITES AND LIARS?

  30. August 26, 2008 7:12 am

    Again I ask, why is it that every single time I ask for examples of DIAMONDS making claims that probably couldn’t be matched by a Diamond income, every single time I’m given the names of people that are NOT DIAMOND.

    perceptive – it may make that Diamond a hypocrite, or a liar, or it may just mean they’ve changed their mind since they made the statement.

    It does NOT however automatically make Diamonds, plural, hypocrites.

  31. August 26, 2008 8:22 am

    IBOFB – “perceptive – it may make that Diamond a hypocrite, or a liar, or it may just mean they’ve changed their mind since they made the statement.

    It does NOT however automatically make Diamonds, plural, hypocrites.”

    IBOFB, you must have missed this part of my post – “Big pins teach this garbage. AND/OR – they are present at the opens/functions where it is taught.

    Is it reasonable, then, to conclude that it is a “system-wide” teaching?”

    You just LOVE playing semantics, don’t you. How can you be so dishonest? Since you love to play dumb, let me break it down to you, like I would to a 7-year-old:

    1. IF you teach that “houses should always be bought in cash” – WHILE you are at the SAME TIME, doing the exact OPPOSITE – and then ‘change’ your ‘teaching’ years later, AFTER it has come to light that you were NOT following your own ‘teaching’, it DEFINITELY makes you a hypocrite. And a LIAR. That – is NOT, “changing your mind”, as you so nicely put it. That – is being “caught with your hands in the cookie-jar”.

    NOW. Repeat the above statements after me. Repeat three times. Or until it sinks in.

    2. IRRESPECTIVE of WHO teaches this nonsensical stuff – when you have big pins – Diamond and above – present when this stuff is taught, it is an indication of consent from the top-leaders of the system. It is ALSO an indication that such teachings are WIDESPREAD in the system, and ALL IBOs in that system are exposed to those teachings.

    NOW. Repeat the above statements after me. Repeat three times. Or until it sinks in.

    3. When you have multiple IBOs from DIFFERENT GEOGRAPHICAL regions reporting/saying the EXACT SAME things – the EXACT SAME TEACHINGS – it is an ABSOLUTELY ACCURATE conclusion that the top-leaders of the system endorse and condone this kind of garbage, irrespective of whether a particular Diamond “said” it or not.

    NOW. Repeat the above statements after me. Repeat three times. Or until it sinks in.

  32. August 26, 2008 8:39 am

    Hey Bridgett,

    STILL waiting for an answer.

    Did you miss my question? –

    “And can you give us a list of the “MANY Diamonds YOU have heard, who TALK about renting”?”

  33. August 26, 2008 8:40 am

    So, perceptive, which Diamond was teaching “houses should always be bought in cash” and was later found to be doing the exact opposite?

    Your second point is rubbish. Diamonds saying this stuff does not mean they’re “teaching” it as part of a system endorsed concept – it just means it’s what they think. I have an MP3 of pokerpooner’s own Diamond recommending renting, so I know not to trust him. Speaking of pokerpooner, check out his very first post on QuixtarBlog, then check out later posts, and see who you should be accusing of dishonesty.

    Does WWDB have something like N21 – “never take counsel from stage”?

    You seem to think things are far more formalised and structured than they are. Diamonds give their experience and their opinions, that’s it.

    Still waiting for someone to provide me with evidence that “only pay cash” is a common teaching.

  34. August 26, 2008 8:40 am

    Hey Bridgett,

    STILL waiting for an answer.

    Did you miss my question? –

    “And can you give us a list of the “MANY Diamonds YOU have heard, who TALK about renting”?”

  35. August 26, 2008 9:05 am

    ibofightback – Can you elaborate on your statement:

    Does WWDB have something like N21 – “never take counsel from stage”?

    Is this something N21 leaders say from stage? What would they define as counsel?

  36. August 26, 2008 9:31 am

    Amthrax,

    “counsel” means taking advice and acting on it. In N21 we have a strong rule that you should discuss things with your upline first for another perspective, since what the speaker was suggesting may not be useful or sensible in your particular circumstances – indeed it may even be the wrong thing for you to do. Same of course applies for CDs.

    It’s a general n21 “rule”, but speakers usually mention it before they talk about any specific strategies or actions they’ve been using. Every individual’s circumstances are different and what’s a good idea for one person is not necessarily a good idea for another.

  37. August 26, 2008 9:50 am

    Now that you explained it that way, I do recall INA leaders saying something something similar from stage (not all of the time, mind you).

    To me, that sounds a lot like CYA – Cover Your A$$ — on the part of the INA leaders.

    Leaders can preach what they want from stage to the IBO masses, but they take no responsibility for anything they say. That’s not really teaching is it?

  38. August 26, 2008 10:03 am

    You can try to look for some ulterior motive all you want, it’s still just plain sensible.

  39. Joecool permalink
    August 26, 2008 10:12 am

    To Quote IBOFB. oh good grief, you actually make an argument because I may have over estimated the seating in the Rose Garden by a few thousand? There may very well have been 18,000 people there. The floor area was loaded with seats. But that’s not the point.

    Diamonds taught that houses and other big ticket items are paid in cash. That it was insane to finance these items because you will make the bank rich by paying interest.

    Bridgett still has yet to name the “Many” diamonds that taught renting. Bridgett, put down the Kool aid for a second. When you say I was in the bisiness 12 years ago, at least I was actually at these functions. IBOFB in not in the USA and he has not been active for the last 8 years so by your own reasoning, he doesn’t know jack about Amway either right?

    You and IBOFB want to play tricks with semantics but I know what I heard and I’m certain to some degree that it still exists today. You just choose to downplay it to promote your sham of a business. You know when I was active, these same wonderful leaders were still teaching the mantra that NOBODY made profits from tools.

  40. August 26, 2008 10:37 am

    ibofightback – you’re absolutely right that IBOs shouldn’t be taking what leaders say from stage at face value. IBOs should question practically everything coming out of a Diamond’s mouth.

  41. August 26, 2008 10:54 am

    perspective,

    I have a life offline. It’s my kids’ first day of Kindergarten. Was a fantastic day!

    Am I at your beck and call? Do I exist in order to justify your existence? Um…no.

    It’s kind of incredible the arrogance that is displayed by you, joecool, rocket, pokerpooner…dare I name more?

    These qualities of self-importance…hmmm…can we say, “narcissistic”?

    Wow, wow, and wow again.

    My experience regarding the Amway/Quixtar/Amway Global business is clearly 180-degree different from yours.

    Am I denying your experience? No.

    I do, though, take offense of you, and the rest of your cronies, invalidating my experience.

    Sorry you had a crappy experience. I haven’t.

    And the things that I have not been pleased about, I’ve chosen to work out and get fixed, rather than vent and rant and complain and blame and making sweeping generalizations (all anonymously—THAT is the biggest joke) online.

    Having said that, excuse me while I make some more of those fabulous chocolate croissants for my family (made two each last night of my husband and me). Scrumptious!

    🙂

  42. Joecool permalink
    August 26, 2008 11:02 am

    Frankly, I hadn’t made any comments about your experience Bridgett, until you started questioning what I saw in person.

    IBOFB has taught you well in dodging issues. You going to name some of the “many” diamonds who teach renting? I have never heard of diamonds talking about rent. Hey if you did, that’s cool, but don’t drop in here and deny what I saw and heard.

    Oh and FYI, ibofightback hasn’t been building the business since about 2000, yet you take his experiences as the gospel truth and dismiss others who aren’t active. Did ibofb teach tiy double standards as well?

    If I understood your position – you build the business without tools? I have no issue with you.

    The issue I have are diamonds who deceive people and then bilk them for tools money. I know of IBOs who lost their homes doing whatever it took to get to that next function. Of of your beloved leaders actually stood in front of an audience and told the group that he would have his family skip a meal if it meant he could buy more tapes because the tapes could eventually be the key to solving all their financial diffculties. This is the kind of stuff you beloved leaders taught. Please don’t drop in here and tell me what I heard or didn’t hear or tell me what I saw or didn’t see.

  43. August 26, 2008 11:43 am

    joecool,

    You (and rocket) do not pay attention.

    (or, most likely do NOT want to pay attention)

    I have been online for 14 months,have conversed with you over at Opportunity Zone m for at least three months many times, now have my own blog, and you think I’m building it without “tools”?

    You think I need to rely on IBOFightBack’s experience?

    Um, I do have my own very detailed experience to draw from.

    LOL.

    And people lose their houses because they make poor financial decisions, joecool.

    Being in the movie industry, and seeing many people make tons of money and then make really stupid decisions with it, I can attest that it’s their responsibility for being stupid with their money.

    Not Universal’s, not Paramount’s, not Warner Bros’.

    Not their managers, not their agents, not their lawyers.

    Okay, now I’m really going to go offline. Just had to post about the new XS Gold on my blog, and stupidly checked this thread.

    My fault. I take FULL responsibility for my misuse of my time.

    🙂

  44. August 26, 2008 11:47 am

    Bridgett – Not all critics are invalidating your experience. I have no problem with those IBOs who are building the business using sound practices like retailing.

    Sadly, I do not see this type of teaching being duplicated across other LOS. If my friend was building his Amway Global business by focusing on retailing products and sharing the opportunity with others, I would have little problem. But, it’s evident from talking to him that he’s being taught the same thing I was, buy from yourself and teach others to do the same, buy the tools, get the website, use KATE, go to all the functions, etc.

    This is why I am back in the debate, to help educate people that my experience from 10 years ago is still relevant today.

  45. Joecool permalink
    August 26, 2008 11:54 am

    Actually Bridgett, I was unaware of your business situation because I don’t care. But since you chose to make claims that I believe to be completely false, I am calling your bluff and if looks like you are defenseless.

    Are you ever going to name any of the “many” diamonds who teach renting instead of buying a home or did you lie and make it up?

    Bridgett: And people lose their houses because they make poor financial decisions, joecool.

    Joecool says: Yes, they made bad financial decisions. But who do you think told these nice folks to trust me and I will not lead you astray? That’s right, the same upline leaders.
    I agree that the IBO at some point needed to take responsibility for their homes. But still, you blame the victim while these upline leaders deceive downline, ask for their trust while leading them down to path to ruin.

    And the fact that you and IBOfightback defend this atrocious behavior makes me sick.

  46. August 26, 2008 11:59 am

    Steve/JoeCool,

    “atrocious behavior”

    Are you really ready to go there?

  47. August 26, 2008 12:15 pm

    Everyone – Let’s not go there. Keep the discussion on topic.

  48. August 26, 2008 1:47 pm

    IBOFB,

    Good Lord, man, keeping up with your contradictions is a full-time job!

    On the one hand, you admonish me for thinking that “things are far more formalised and structured than they are.”

    And THEN – you say – “Still waiting for someone to provide me with evidence that “only pay cash” is a common teaching.?”

    I was making the SAME point. There’s a whole “wink-and-a-nod” approach to the ‘teachings’. Say outrageous stuff from stage, but then Cover-Your-Ass with statements like “never take counsel from stage”.

    If something is NOT applicable ‘universally’, why say it from stage?

    And you expect us to provide evidence of this teaching?!?!?!

    TO DATE – until Bridgett made this claim that “MANY” Diamonds have said that they rent their homes, I’d NEVER heard an IBO say such a thing. On the contrary, in last 7 years or so, I’ve repeatedly seen IBOs promulgate this teaching.

    Multiple LOSes, Multiple Locations ACROSS the US, Multiple LOAs.

    And you expect me to believe that my point #2 is rubbish? That Diamonds and other Big Pins being present at an event where these outrageous stuff is taught from stage – and condoning these teachings – is NOT a reflection of ‘system-wide’ teaching?

    PUHHLEEEEEEZZZZEEEE…….

    Absolutely, it IS.

    I HAVE seen the “buy houses for cash” mantra REPEATEDLY. And now you have Greg Duncan not just NOT paying for his houses in Cash, but actually taking out an ‘INTEREST-ONLY’ loan, AND defaulting on his payments!

    That’s NOT Hypocrisy??

    Bridgett,

    Shouldn’t you chill out a bit? 😉 I was just needling you a little. But, the ‘double-posting’ was NOT intentional.

    You seem to have POINTEDLY ignored requests from Joecool and others to list the “MANY” ;-D
    Diamonds you have heard suggest that it is better to rent than to own. Can you give us that list? And I am asking nicely ;-)…

    But I do find it interesting that you accuse people of being ‘arrogant’ and at the same time, you make this statement –

    “And now you have “Amthrax”, another winner without a name, jumping on the bandwagon with his experience from TEN YEARS ago.”

    I would say THAT’s pretty arrogant. You are making the assumption that UNLESS you were in the business currently, you can NOT comment on the business.

    IF – that were the case, businessmen all over the country would NOT be doing “due-diligence” before buying or getting into a business, right?

    Now, going on to your other point – am I ‘invalidating’ your experience? No. You said you’ve heard “MANY” ;-D
    Diamonds suggest that it is better to rent than to own. I would just like you to support your statement, by giving the readers here a list.

    To put it differently, what I am doing is NOT invalidating YOUR experience – just questioning HOW UNIVERSAL it is?

  49. August 26, 2008 1:53 pm

    Also, Bridgett,

    I am curious. What relevance does Joecool’s personal life have to the conduct of the ‘leaders’ of the AmQuix Business?

  50. August 26, 2008 4:14 pm

    I fail to see any “contradiction” in what I said at all. Systems do tend to have some structured teachings, things like CORE, but pretty much anything else is a Diamond talking about their experience and opinions. If a Diamond got up and said “Man, I love boats, ya gotta get yourself a boat” – who in the right mind would write down “Note to self: hate boats, but Diamond said I must buy one”.

    It’s just ridiculous.

    Now, you guys have challenged Bridgett to name some of the “many diamonds” that she claims rents. As far as I’m concerned that’s a fair enough thing for her to answer, since she said it.

    But don’t any of you feel even remotely hypocritical? You (this is a generic you, referring to different folk) refuse to name any of the diamonds that you claim said they paid cash for a jet – heck none of you will even name a Diamond who has a jet! You also refuse to name any of the Diamonds who claim to “teach” to “only pay cash”.

    How about ALL of you put up or shut up?

    As it happens I’ve learned that apparently both WWDBers Dan Yuen and Brad Duncan rented until EDC. I have no proof of the second, but “out of the horses mouth” proof of the first, though I’ve been asked not to post the MP3 as it’s a Kate message and has non-relevant personal info in it.

  51. Joecool permalink
    August 26, 2008 4:18 pm

    Bridgett: Steve/JoeCool,
    “atrocious behavior”
    Are you really ready to go there?

    Joecool says: Go there if you want. I will bring up a few point first. You made the claim that “MANY” diamonds teach renting instead of buying. Did you lie or make it up?

    Secondly, I could be a double axe murderer, whatever, it doesn’t change the FACT that the diamonds we speak of told the audience that they buy homes and other luxuries in cash.

    Third, I believe your website says you are Christian. Let he who is without sin cast the first stone. BTW, you pal IBOFB’s got skeletons in the closet as well as everyone else here.

  52. August 26, 2008 4:20 pm

    JoeCools’s “personal life” has some relevance because it point to his credibility (or lack thereof). He was caught in repeated lies. And note, again, that JoeCool was the one who brought the topic of his personal life into the Amway/Quixtar debate, nobody else.

    Speaking of honesty …. any of you checked out pokerpooner’s first posts on QuixtarBlog and queried *his* honesty yet?

  53. Joecool permalink
    August 26, 2008 4:24 pm

    What about all the Amway related lies you told IBOFB?

    Your contention is laughable.

  54. Mike permalink
    August 26, 2008 4:45 pm

    IBO, just curious,

    I have a question. At one time I guess you had no idea what Amway was about, then long the way, you found out about Amway. What is it about the company that made you want to sign up, what is it that made you say..I wanna do this thing?

    Although this is directed towards IBO, anyone that wishes may answer..uh for yourself..

  55. August 26, 2008 4:47 pm

    And this is why I try to ignore the “critic” blogs. I’ve read some of the stuff JoeCool claims I lied about. Problem is I never said most of the stuff he claims I said, and the other stuff he gives such a twisted interpretation that doesn’t vaguely match what I was saying.

    Later when I say something contradicts his fake stuff or twisted interpretations, he accuses me of being a liar.

    And his buddies like “perceptive” and “pokerpooner” just go along for the ride, not caring whether it’s true or not.

    Anyone checked PokerPooner’s first post yet?

    So I’m back to not participating the conversation on “critics” sites.

    Amthrax, you’ve mostly seemed a reasonable voice, I’ll keep reading your posts, but it’s not worth the effort dealing with these other idiots in the comments. They’ve obviously missed me on QBlog.

  56. August 26, 2008 4:50 pm

    One last post since Mike got in first. Mike – feel free to come and ask me on The Truth About Amway, or even better, Amway Talk

  57. Joecool permalink
    August 26, 2008 4:57 pm

    Mike, it’s well documented, and many others have said the same thing. IBOFB takes things out of context and people have to correct him and tell him they did not say that. He didn’t earn the nickname “spinsider” for nothing.

    When I posted a list of your lies on my blog, you were unable to refute a single one of them because I took your quotes right off your own blog.

    Most of the conflict results from IBOFB trying to twist and spin details after being caught in a lie/falsehood.

    IBOFB: Later when I say something contradicts his fake stuff or twisted interpretations, he accuses me of being a liar.

    Joecool says: Care to give an example? I have tons of stuff on you. Oh like your claim of being a retired EDC for example.

  58. August 26, 2008 5:02 pm

    JoeCool,

    Did you miss my comment about one of YOUR Upline Diamonds renting?

    HERE

    How many exactly would you like? It’s really not about the number of renters, is it joecool?

    You’ve already made it clear by saying:

    “Actually Bridgett, I was unaware of your business situation because I don’t care.”

    that you don’t care about facts. You are just interested in trying to discredit someone who challenges your “amway sucks” mantra.

    No mas from me to you joecool. I feel like I am enabling you.

    Perhaps you can find significance in other arenas than as a quixtar/amway critic. I’m sure God created you for a much higher purpose.

    Enjoy Hawaii. It’s a lovely place, but as I found when I worked on a movie there for ten weeks, a very dark place spiritually.

  59. Joecool permalink
    August 26, 2008 5:10 pm

    Bridgett: JoeCool, Did you miss my comment about one of YOUR Upline Diamonds renting?

    Joecool says: Reading comprehension issues. You said you heard “many a diamond” talk about renting and not buying. When did one become many?

    I will ask again, did you make it up or are you lying? Of course you and IBOFB have a double standard. If I made that same claim, you guys would be demanding proof.

    As I said, I don’t claim that none of the diamonds may talk about rent, but you said “many”. Why can’t you name more than one?

    To a casual observer, what is more believable? That a diamond who in the past lied about tools income would falunt wealth and talk about buying a home in cash, or that they would downplay their wealth and advise people to rent?

    I remember a rather big function called “Dreamnite”, I believe now Winter Conference. Guess what the theme of Dreamnite was about? Yeah, cars, jetskis, mercedes benz, mansions, boats, vacations, designer clothes. Does this theme sound like they would be renting homes to economize? Is thus why they told people to go diamond and join them?

  60. Joecool permalink
    August 26, 2008 5:13 pm

    Bridgett said: that you don’t care about facts. You are just interested in trying to discredit someone who challenges your “amway sucks” mantra.

    Joecool said: No Bridgett, you discredit yourself by making the claim and then refusing to give an answer when called on it.

  61. Joecool permalink
    August 26, 2008 5:21 pm

    IBOfightback said: Anyone checked PokerPooner’s first post yet?

    Joecool said: Double standard again? From the guy whose main defense for lying is that there was a smiley on the post? You’re slipping.

  62. August 26, 2008 5:52 pm

    joecool,

    Now you can’t count. I named one of your upline diamonds’ and pokerpooner’s upline diamond

    (remember, this is how the whole conversation started, with your pal, pokerpooner? That was before he called me “ugly old bitch”)

    http://tinyurl.com/5qwcle

    So you’ve just proven my point:

    You are not interested in facts. You are interested in conflict.

    And I believe I said I was a Christian prayer warrior. I shall add you to my prayer list.

    Blessings.

    For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the cosmic powers over this present darkness, against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly places. (Ephesians 6:12)

    [Amthrax: Edited URL to TinyURL]

  63. Joecool permalink
    August 26, 2008 5:55 pm

    So Bridgett, are you saying that one = many?

  64. August 26, 2008 6:03 pm

    one of your upline diamonds + one of pokerpooner’s upline diamond = one diamond?

    1 + 1 = 1 ?

    Ummm…I can’t do this anymore. I truly am speechless as your inability to comprehend the simplest pieces of information.

    I’m sorry. I must walk away from the computer now. I am truly stunned.

  65. Joecool permalink
    August 26, 2008 6:18 pm

    Ok, so 1+1 = “many”?

  66. Joecool permalink
    August 26, 2008 6:29 pm

    Bridgett, you and IBOfightless are the same.

    You cannot admit you were in error or wrong.

    You said over the years, you heard many a diamond talk about renting instead of buying. I’m not even asking you for a tape or recording, just to name several of the diamonds you claimed to have heard talking about this.

    All you posted was one conversation between two diamonds. One of the diamonds (Rod Hao?) was the renter and Dan Yuen was the landlord apparently. Where’s the many a diamond over the years that you claimed? The reason I ask is because I have never of anyone mentioning a diamond renting. Of course you proved that maybe some do, but still, it is apparently very small minority.

    Yet you continue to post excuse after excuse telling me I cannot comprehend what you are saying?

    What about “many a diamond over the years” do you not understand?

  67. Mike permalink
    August 26, 2008 7:00 pm

    I guess I won’t get an answer for the following.

    “Bridgett,

    The topic of the discussion is about diamonds and above making claims about the business and then later it is found that there is a contradiction.

    An example is that it is stated that one of the benefits of building an Amway business, is to become debt free, to be able to not owe anyone, to be able to “retire” from a job and become independent and not only have dreams but to actually afford to acheive them.

    A very strong reason to become involved in this or any business.

    So would you agree that some diamonds and above have over stated their income and have presented the illusion of ownership of some high priced items?”

  68. Mike permalink
    August 26, 2008 7:04 pm

    IBO responded to the following
    ” IBO, just curious,
    I have a question. At one time I guess you had no idea what Amway was about, then long the way, you found out about Amway. What is it about the company that made you want to sign up, what is it that made you say..I wanna do this thing?”

    His response
    “One last post since Mike got in first. Mike – feel free to come and ask me on The Truth About Amway, or even better, Amway Talk.”

    Thanks for the invite, but I will decline that venue..but the question still stands.

  69. Mike permalink
    August 27, 2008 10:57 am

    Oh come on Joe, gee, Just because someone somewhere told someone that they could make millions selling soap..and showed them cars, trips, houses, boats, spending cash to purchase almost anything they want..because of the business

    So what, if anyone wants to listen to stories and they later find out that there may have been some “streching” of the truth..then so what.

    It is their life and they are adults, no one twisted their arms.. if they want to put more effort in digging into the seating capacity of an arena or concerned with the personal life of someone that was in the business before.

    I would have to say they need to redefine, who they need to focus their attention and questions toward.

  70. Joecool permalink
    August 27, 2008 11:18 am

    The seating capacity is just IBOfightback theatrics. SO if a diamond lied to 15,000 instead of 20,000 IBOs, it’s ok? Or if it’s 15,000, then the percentage of IBOs lied to is smaller in the total amount of IBOs?

    As I said, even though part of the arena was closed for the stage, the court floor area was filled with seats.

    Basically, Bridgett apparently said something untrue and instead of just admitting it, or saying she may have mis-spoke about the “many”, it became diversoon and insults. That is a typical IBOfightback tactic.

  71. Joecool permalink
    August 27, 2008 4:03 pm

    From a former WWDB IBO posting on IBOFB’s site:

    john
    Aug 19th, 2008 at 3:52 pm
    I see that triple diamond Greg Duncan now has 4 properties in preforeclosure. This is not gossip. I am wondering if it is because he can’t afford his payments. Or has he decided he has made bad investments & will just leave the bank holding the bag? Either way, here we go again. Another kingpin having his property foreclosed on and he will be leading the thousands of downline in speeches about financial responsibility, freedom and integrity.

    I remember constantly being taught to pay cash. So what do you think? Can he not afford his mortgage payments (financially free?) or is he just going to let bank bite the bullet for his not so good investment? Anyone else have any thoughts?

  72. Mike permalink
    August 27, 2008 4:17 pm

    That is the issue, it is when someone makes claims about something and then later it is show that those claims are invalid.

  73. Joecool permalink
    August 28, 2008 9:53 am

    The real issue here is whether WWDB diamonds and above made claims about buying homes and big tickets items in cash. They did, and apparently more than just a few. It’s a theme I have seen on various blogs as well. Did I sit on every function as IBOFB argued? No, I did not, but at the same time IBOFB claims his beloved network 21 doesn’t have abuse, yet he doesn’t sit in all the functions either, and cannot refute the possibility that some N21 pins might teach the same garbage.

    About the (pre)foreclosure. Since leader like Mr. Duncan teach integrity and responsibility, even if he had a dispute with the bank, wouldn’t the responsible action be to pay the mortgage and hire an attorney to settle the issue? And that’s if he had a dispute with the bank. It’s also possible that he simply could not afford to make payments. Maybe we’ll find out later, maybe not.

    The issue of seating at the Rose Garden is just theatrics by IBOFB and Bridgett. My upline told me of a function the previous year (Then called FED) that was held at the Seattle Kingdome (now defunct) that had about 50,000 IBOs.

  74. Gina permalink
    September 4, 2008 10:32 am

    How in the world would IBOFB know anything about anything about this? A) he is not in North America and B) is and has been inactive for how many years?

    Looks like that would put IBOFB right there with various critics making what he calls outdated claims. Hmmmmm

  75. Carin Kurung permalink
    September 12, 2008 11:18 am

    Hello,
    I loved being in Amway (INA) It gave me a great education. I learned about Skip Ross and others.We got out after INA crashed! We never made a dime. We did spend our money on the books,tapes, Functions,and meetings.
    What I did learn is…Our leaders got to travel the world…buy whatever they wanted. while their down line (us) were having garage sales to support THEIR dream. So we could afford to go to next function. (with 20 of our down line in our hotel room for the weekend function) We were the ones who were supporting their life style. “The American Dream”……Even after all of this..I still believed I would someday be up on that stage in my beautiful dress. Giving my speech of how My husband and I became “Diamond.”
    Can anyone relate to this?
    The greatest gift I did learn from all of this…Goal setting,positive thinking,positive books,tapes. Whatever you are good at in life apply the good you learned from this business. You have the tools to become your own “Diamond” in your “own” everyday life.
    Our up line Diamond is now in another Net Work Marketing Business. Our Emerald is a Realtor. (great guy)
    Don’t get into Amway thinking you will have the “American dream”..Get into Amway because LOC is Awesome, and so is SA8. I still buy those two products.OH, don’t forget about the glister. (My teeth are still white and clean)Find “Your Dream” and be honest about it. Treat people like you want to be treated. Go for what you are good at. Get your own dream! Be your own “Diamond” in your own everyday life. That’s”SUCCESS!” God Bless,
    Carin
    P.S. I got into Amway at 18…out at

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