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Happy Friday: Sell! Sell! Sell!

November 21, 2008

After working out this morning, I noticed one of the gym instructors had an arrangement of chocolates on a small table. I looked more closely and noticed she was selling Xoçai , a chocolate and acai berry nutritional supplement sold through multi-level marketing means. I admired her direct approach at selling her products, even though I’m skeptical of its claims.

As you get ready to attend your weekly team meeting, ask yourself the following question:

What products have you sold or tried to sell this week?

Flipping through the pages of the latest Achieve magazine, I noticed an large percentage of the ads were geared towards helping IBOs sell Amway coreline products to — get this — retail customers.

What type of advice are you receiving from your upline and System? Are they continuing to teach the buy from yourself and teach others to do the same (BFYATODS) model or are they also teaching you how to retail products to outside customers? If not, why do you think that is?

  1. Porkchopjim permalink
    November 21, 2008 8:34 am

    I am surprised about what you say about the latest Achieve – I haven’t seen it yet I guess…because the last one I looked at, the ads were geared almost exclusively towards selling products to Amway’s customers – the IBOs. But seriously, pushing retail sales to non-IBOs should be tremendously good for the company, as their old business model didn’t seem to be getting them any growth.

    Some IBOs will proclaim that there has been a tremendous shift in emphasis towards retail sales. OK. Do those retail sales supplement your ‘300PV’ club self-consumption, or are they a part of them – and what percentage? But – find any Achieve testimonial where ‘building the business’ to the point where you end up on the glossy pages of the magazine stressed ‘retail’ building vs. ‘downline’ building. Residual income doesn’t come from chasing customers around – that’s for chumps. The big dream money comes from getting downline who move products – either out the door or into the garage.

  2. November 21, 2008 9:49 am

    A list of the pages that have ads encouraging retail sales:

    Page 7: “… start selling Ribbon to friends and neighbors!”

    Page 8: “Turn Retail Sales Into XSessive Profits

    Page 10: “Healthy Kids + Happy Moms = Retail Income

    Page 14: “Retailing Pays – Giving 3D Lift To Your Business And Customers

    Page 16: “Make it your business to guide customers to the perfect presents for everyone on their lists…”

    Page 20: “How do I determine if someone is a potential customer?”

  3. November 21, 2008 11:06 am

    Amthrax, you ask a leading question –

    “Are they continuing to teach the buy from yourself and teach others to do the same (BFYATODS) model”

    Your wording assumes that’s they way everyone always operated. Ten years ago at our monthly training sessions there were competitions that gave one entry for every customer receipt. 7 or 8 years ago my LOA spent a small fortune and purchasing the rights and further developing a retail-focussed weightloss program, with fortnightly presentations targeted to customers. Our LOA supplied target statistics for strong qualification at various levels has always included customers. At numerous seminars from numerous speakers including numerous Diamonds and and above I’ve heard them speak about the fact they developed customers and still have customers.

    I’ve mentioned these facts numerous times around the various amway forums, but folk simply keep ignoring these realities. While obviously there’s been a strong networking focus throughout most of Amway, not all groups, not even all the major LOAs, have operated on the simplistic BFYTODS model that you and so many others, with narrow experience, claim (or imply) is universal.

  4. Joecool permalink
    November 21, 2008 11:22 am

    It is quite apparent that many IBOs are still in the mode of “buy from yourself”. My former LOS taught us (can’t remember, bt it was on a tape) to ask the prospect “Do you like selling?” If their answer was no, you say great, this business is for you. If their answer was yes, you say great, this business is for you.

    In our smaller group meetings, our platinum told us not to bother selling because the real money was in sponsoring.

    What’s more, I am currently in discussions with an IBO who told me that if I sign up, his mentors would assure me of making $80,000 in my first year. A future Joecool blog post.

    I know IBOFB lives in Amworld, where IBOs don’t do or say anything against the rules, and they sell 90% of what they buy. Too bad that world is not here in the US where they teach buy from yourself.

  5. Gina permalink
    November 21, 2008 11:48 am

    I think old habits die hard. The breakdown of how when and where the BFYTODS is/was taught/practiced is something that can certainly be analyzed, but I will say on the corps part it is a move in the right direction. It also seems to be a valid effort…meaning the ads are on multiple pages, with varying specifics but the same overall message instead of throwing in one and saying “see…we encourage retail sales.” Whether or not IBO’s will pick up on this is a whole different story. I do notice though that whether some IBO’s know it or not they do practice the BFYTODS model. Only time will tell if this will change.

  6. November 21, 2008 11:58 am

    What Porkchopjim said: dittos

    Retail selling is merely window dressing for the pyramid scheme con job on the only substantial buyers, the only real world customers, the dream inspired dupes buying their 300PV basket load of mostly useless Amway crap as part of their ‘self consumption club’ exactly as PCJ suggests.

    Maybe selling a product every once in a while makes an ‘independent’ feel a great sense of accomplishment, but probably doesn’t come close to offsetting expenditures brought about by the BFYATODS boot camp basic training encouraged by some upline toady. IBOFB, you are full of shit!

  7. Porkchopjim permalink
    November 21, 2008 2:01 pm

    Despite insider’s claims that it doesn’t matter as long as IBOs think they are ‘retail customers’ by stuffing themselves to make PV – where does the majority/preponderance/(some like Amway would say ~94%) of the ‘money’ from the ‘money making opportunity’ come from: outside customers, or internal consumption?

    Does the opportunity rely (or prey) on the newest members for new money, or retail sales?

    I’m please that even in the dark ages when insider was active they had parlor games based around retail sales…but that tidbit of propaganda in no way shows that the focus and purpose of all those meetings and PV goals to prop up the pyramid was to base the business to sales outside of the business owners themselves.

  8. Porkchopjim permalink
    November 21, 2008 2:03 pm

    Alternate title:

    It’s Almost the End of the Month: Have you met your PV Goal? Buy! Buy! Buy!

  9. Joecool permalink
    November 21, 2008 3:16 pm

    And with all of those IBO sales – 95%, where are the rest of the products sold? Most likely to family members of the IBOs who may or may not have wanted the products.

  10. November 21, 2008 6:41 pm

    They end up going to Mom; some hokey carb blocker that she is told will help her take off those last difficult extra 80 lbs. (The same pills that independent labs say you’d have to take two or three bottles at a time to make any significant differences between them and a placebo. Since they are made out of beans, the lab said you’d be ‘farter’ ahead to just eat the beans!)

    They’ve recently debunked gingko and vitamin E and any number of other fakir nutritional supplements that Amway and Herbalife sell as high dollar items, even though the ingredients only cost pennies. The packaging, a plastic bottle cost more than the crap pills inside. Mom will lose weight from not having any money to buy food. LMAO (Of course, Mom didn’t want them, but she was told that her daughter’s Quixtar business would fail if she didn’t buy them.)

    Hahoo News!

  11. mike permalink
    November 22, 2008 3:43 am

    Joe states “My former LOS taught us (can’t remember, bt it was on a tape) to ask the prospect “Do you like selling?” If their answer was no, you say great, this business is for you. If their answer was yes, you say great, this business is for you.”

    I was taught the same line as well, I had a crossline tell me, “Sure one call make money in retail, but the best was to make it was sponsering”

    When Amway can show that more sales are made to customers than “IBO” regardless if they sign up for the “wholesales prices” they are still a “buy from yourself business.”

  12. November 22, 2008 6:44 am


    Did you mean to say, “UNTIL Amway can show…?”

    On another note, it’s not the BFYATOTDTS that is the sole problem, it’s the fact that, as Mike points out, most of what was being taught was to sign people up/register/sponsor/sell them an IBO card (whatever phrasing you want to use) even to those who just wanted to purchase the products.

    This is a problem because the new IBO cannot make enough money, fast enough, when he/she is relying solely on the PV/BV money, rather than the retail mark-up.

    Whatever reason(s) someone wants to have/give for making everyone “wholesale” customers, is theirs. But the bottom line is that it is not an effective way to put dollars in the pockets of brand new IBOs (who register with the intent of making money, not to just get IBO-cost).

    And because of this—non-profitable IBOs from the get-go and being taught to pass up that retail mark up—a whole slew of problems occur—in how the business is presented, in the pricing of products, in the “work habits” an IBO is taught, in the role of the AMOs.

    So while Amway Global is still transforming, what I’ve seen so far, since September 2007 (actually I started to see a month earlier when some organizations were not pleased with the direction the Corp was headed), I am encouraged.

    Do I like to sell? Well, come on, let’s get real: Whether you are selling a tangible product or a concept (buy at a discount) or a business opportunity, it is ALL selling.

    Now that I understand the importance of RETAILING (which there is a distinction between selling and retailing—the price)—short-term and long-term—I’m on board with the direction Amway Global has been headed.

  13. Joecool permalink
    November 24, 2008 10:12 am

    It’s not that people are unwilling to sell, but more likely that they are handicapped by the Amway prices. You can make your case for concentration and whatnot, but the general population looks at the bottom line prices and the size of the box. It’s why Walmart is wildly successful.

  14. November 24, 2008 12:17 pm

    Joecool, I hear what you are saying.

    And from what I’ve seen in the last 14 months, Amway Global is addressing that issue.

    There are products that are cost-competitive with big-box stores, like the home care cleaners as well as the Artistry Essentials MakeUp kit, and the Nutrilite Daily (one-a-day) to mention a few.

    But a few things to consider:

    1) I am not of the opinion that every product AG offers is worth the money, however I also don’t think every product needs to be fit Bridgett’s Test of Value. I think (and I know from experience) that there are enough products that are retailable for someone to be able to retail.

    2) I know that my idea of value does not always match everyone else’s. What I consider not worth the money, and even try to talk a customer out of it and offer them a less-expensive alternative, they *still* want the product that I personally wouldn’t buy for that retail price.

    3) I know you have a love affair with WalMart and Costco, and I just don’t think that the customers of those two fine companies are the same as the customers AG IBOs are to approach.

    I’ve been to both WalMart and Costco, and I am not a fan of either one for a number of reasons. Obviously they have many how ARE fans of them. I’m just not one of those people, and I think IBOs would be smart to not attempt to sell to those individuals, like yourself, who shop there.

    I shop at Whole Foods Market, a successful grocery store chain. Whole Foods is aware that the majority is not going to pay $2.49/lb for apples, or $2.69/dz eggs, or $11.98/lb of cheese.

    They aren’t looking to sell to the majority, and I don’t think Amway Global is either.

    4) You can debate and say the AG *should* adopt the WalMart/Costco model, but that makes as much sense as you trying to convince me to stop pay $12 a pound for cheese and tell me that I should start eating Kraft singles at 1/3 the price. 🙂

    5) I don’t think some IBOs *are* willing to retail right now because they don’t “get it”. Some are still being taught that the only reason to get a customer is to eventually show them the business opportunity.

    Now, I do think it makes sense IF THERE IS INTEREST to, at some point, let someone see the bigger picture, but what I say is, “LET A CUSTOMER BE A CUSTOMER.”

    Until IBOs let customers be customers, and see the value of customers as customers, even if they are customers forever, retailing will be hard for those IBOs. Their motives will be off, and so they will not desire to have customers, nor will they learn how to properly acquire and maintain customers.

  15. Joecool permalink
    November 24, 2008 1:21 pm

    Hey Brdigett,

    FYI, I am not so anti AG that I will say all the stuff is bad. I agree that some of their products are good and some of them are of decent value. However, the vast majority of people, or the general public doesn’t really care, or is ignorant about product concentration and to some degree, product quality. As an example. even if SA8 was great at getting out tough stains and all, it’s irrelevent to me as I don’t have any activities that cause tough stains. The cheaper and giant bucket of kirkland detergent from Costco works ok for me.

    I don’t mind the XS energy drinks. I agree that they taste pretty good but I don’t drink them often enough to want to buy a case at a time.

    But the overall opportunity IMO is not favorable overall amd the AMQOs have made the opprtunityworse by taking advantage of IBOs to sell tools.

  16. November 24, 2008 2:40 pm

    Right. You, Joecool, are not someone who should purchase products, nor promote them or the business opportunity.

    And people who are like you, with the same shopping habits and opinions about products, shouldn’t do any of those three things either.

    We are in agreement 100%.

  17. mike permalink
    November 24, 2008 3:35 pm

    I agree with what Bridgett is saying about a person personal decision of what they wish to spend their money on.

    The example of the $12 cheese, and if said cheese can be bought across the street for $8 dollars, would the seller of the $12 cheese have a more difficult time selling their cheese? yes they would, unless other factors were involved ie, customer service, convience, discounts, etc.

    It seems that the Amway seller, has many hurdles to jump in order to retail their products. And their market is small and or limited, but that depends on the individual IBO and how much effort they can afford.

    It also seems that with the reduction in price of products will cut into the profit return to the IBO, however the expenses (not including any “system” cost) would not decrease, therefore the incentive to become a IBO would decline as well.

    Where Walmart makes their money is that they demand the vendor to reduce their cost, whereas they can sell at a lower cost, so their profit margin is the same.

    If Amway is lowering the wholesale cost, the IBO can make the same amount of profit, even though selling at a lower retail, then that will greatly help the IBO.

    But if the wholesale cost is the same and the retail is lower, they have not done anything helpful.

  18. November 24, 2008 7:21 pm

    What a crock of crap. (Even Amway employees call it crap now.) What a crock; all the self consumption and it is justified by calling those who do it ‘just folks who sign up to get the discount!’ I wonder why they get worried about being core and buying the 100 PV each month then? I have bolts in my neck. My head comes off and goes back on. My gawd,

    Bridgett, the wholesale price ends up being the retail price to the IBO dupe (you).

    Thinking that the even the wholesale price is competitive is to ‘invert reality’ (like David Brear says) and makes anyone doing that math a mental midget getting sent back a couple of grades in school.

    My wife packed all the crap Artistry makeup in a suitcase and gave it all back to her daughter who refused to send it back to Quixtar; said it would hurt her business. My wife thought that the makeup was not only overpriced, but of mediocre quality as well. And XS really is piss. We had cases of it sit around here for so long I eventually sat them out for the garbage man. (Sorry Joecool) To be somewhat fair, I don’t care much for Red Bull either unless it is in a mixed drink.

    Oh, AG stands for Attorney General; the people who should be bringing fraud charges against anyone denying the financial holocaust and misrepresenting the opportunity; a clear case of intent to defraud!

    Editor’s Note: Modified Bridgett’s name. Please don’t post derogatory names.

  19. November 24, 2008 9:37 pm

    Amway Global offers a 180-day 100% money-back guarantee on all their products.

    And they pay the shipping costs to ship it back.

    Whether or not a customer or IBO chooses to take advantage of this six-month guarantee, is up to them.

    If someone chooses not to return the product(s) they they are unhappy with, for whatever reason, even supposed intimitation from an offspring, it’s Amway Global’s fault?


  20. Joecool permalink
    November 25, 2008 11:17 am

    It would appear that unless you are an IBO, not much products are moving outside of the IBO’s self consumption. It reveals that there is not much of a demand for quixtar products except by quixtar IBOs.

    You can make the argument that 3.4% of a billion is 34 million dollars in sales to non IBOs. But how much of these sales are to sympathetic family and friends or those who buy to get an IBO off their backs as opposed to real customers who simply seek teh products?

    I’m sure there are some real customers and some IBOs who actually sell the stuff, but retailing IBOs appear to be the rare exception and not the rule.

    Because the prices are not competitive, many IBOs are handicapped and the result is the buy from yourself model.
    If customers can get products cheaper at Walmart or some other retailer, they will and they do. It’s why quixtar sales to non IBOs are dismal.

  21. November 25, 2008 12:11 pm

    “It reveals that there is not much of a demand for quixtar products except by quixtar IBOs.”


    What it reveals is exactly what we’ve been talking about: IBOs have not, in the past, been encouraged to sell a product at retail price.

    They’ve been encourged to sign everyone up, even those who DO like the products and just want to use them but are not interested in making money.

    Many IBOs, in the past, haven’t even considered retailing, and have only focused on the PV/BV money, and not the retail mark-up money.

    That’s changing…gradually. Old habits die hard. 🙂

  22. Porkchopjim permalink
    November 25, 2008 12:29 pm

    IBOs have not been encouraged to sell retail at all – retail price or otherwise.

    So that leaves IBOs trying to peddle products that previously only had PV/BV interest to people who have no PV/BV interest…and finding that AG appears to be sadly lacking in the ability to offer attractive, competitive products in any variety or volume to sustain a business.

    Which still means – regardless of the window dressing – that AG is not a viable business as presented without a substantial (read primary) amount of self-consumption.

  23. Joecool permalink
    November 25, 2008 1:12 pm

    If not for IBOs who buy their own stuff, quixtar would probably have less than 34 million in sales.

    If customers can buy products cheaper at Walmart (or wherever), they do. Quixtar’s sales confirm this.

  24. November 25, 2008 4:12 pm

    Have you looked at the product offerings lately?

    You’ve said it’s been a while since you looked at any of the Achieves, so you were suprised at the customer-focused/retaling ads.

    Just wondering if you have looked at current products AG has, or is your statement based on info from more than 14 months ago?

  25. November 25, 2008 4:14 pm


    34 million? I have noticed that you tend to make up random numbers.

    I like though that you don’t use a figure ending in a zero or a five.

    34 sounds much more convincing than 30 or 35. 🙂

  26. November 25, 2008 4:15 pm

    This thread is becoming silly.



  27. Joecool permalink
    November 25, 2008 4:29 pm

    Bridgett, I believe that figure was once quoted by your beloved IBOFB. Quixtar = 1 billion in sales. Quixtar IBOs sell 3.4% of good to non IBOs (Quixtar’s numbers)

    3.4% of a billion = 34 million

    IBOFB was bragging that 30-40 million of quixtar sales was to non IBOs. If you consider the number of IBOs in the business and their sales to non IBOs comes out to less than $10 a month.

    Yep, that’s the way to a sustainable long term retail business. But $300 a month from yourself and have sales to non IBO’s of less than $10 a month. Shrewd.

  28. November 25, 2008 4:59 pm


    You said yourself that you were discouraged from retailing, what, a dozen years ago, was it?

    I’m wondering if anyone could possibly entertain the idea that a few things have changed, particularly in the last 15 months, and just wait to what’s going to be happening the 1st of the year, regarding customers and retailing, since your time as an Amway Distributor?

    I’m going to move in to 2009 and beyond. Are you gonna stay in the past????

    Don’t answer. I already know. See ya! 😉

  29. Joecool permalink
    November 25, 2008 5:20 pm

    Bridgett, all due respect. You keep claiming that things have changed. Please tell the audience what has changed in the last ten years?

    I witnessed and confirmed with others that as recently as a year ago, some WWDB groups still did call in and pick up. I later learned that the LOS can manipulate PV if their group is NOT on direct fulfillment.

    Many IBOs were taught to buy from themselves back in my day and it is still happening today.

    “Many a diamond” spoke about how stupid it is not to pay cash for a home. And now we find that two WWDB leaders had their homes foreclosed. They stood on stage and taught personal responsibility but did not pay their mortgages? Sure we don’t know all the circumstances but then again, “many a diamond” said they paid cash for their homes. Do they still have dramnite or winter conference?

    When I was an IBO, the emphasis was on sponsoring and not on selling. What are they teaching now? Based on my blogging experiences, I know that some WWDB groups still emphasize sponsoring and not selling.

    Are the majority of IBOs making a profit? Are some upline leaders still making handsome profut from selling tools?
    Are IBOs sticking with the business and not quitting?
    Are IBOs being straighforward when recruitng prospects or do they stil use deception?

    Are non IBOs called broke? Are people dead or broke by age 65?

    Please Bridgett, tell me what has changed from ten years ago so I can move onto 2009. Please tell the readers here what’s different because it looks like the same old same old to me.

  30. November 25, 2008 5:39 pm

    The Amway Global business is looking not to emphasize one aspect over another–sponsoring over retailing, OR retailing over sponsoring.

    It’s about having a BALANCED business.

    And all the stuff that you repeat over and over again, most are PARTLY true–you are not recording the FULL picture, joecool.

    More importantly, who ARE the readers here, Joecool? That IS a great question, isn’t it?

    If I hadn’t come here, this thread would’ve ended days ago with a third of the comments.

    I should’ve known better…

  31. November 25, 2008 5:41 pm


    You have way more time on your hands, and way more desire to debate than I do.

    I’m gonna go play CandyLand with my husband and kids now.

    Have a great evening.

  32. November 25, 2008 5:42 pm

    I wonder if all these changes (what changes) include doing anything about the tool scam? Aren’t the same exact group of tool scammers still carrying out their money extracting affairs unhampered?

    Maybe Amway is more concerned about a change in the Regulatory Agencies under the Obama Administration, so they are urging ‘self consumers’ to push a few more carb blockers on grandma? She would be ‘farter’ ahead buying them at GNC.

    Bridgett, the timing of all this “change” is really suspect in my opinion.

    Tex was saying he sold some Amway items. I congratulated him. Thank goodness for the P.T.Barnum effect. I think any thinking person wanting to make a few dollars selling anything at retail would find something to buy at a real wholesale price? How come the Amway wholesale price is higher than comparable brick and mortar items being sold at retail? while I am on the subject, I get tired of hearing the quality difference argument. Some of the crap Amway items I’ve seen are merely par and some out and out suck.

    Oh, did anyone hear about Amway punching a women in the face? Click here.

  33. November 25, 2008 5:47 pm


    I forgot to tell you. Another Blogger picked up on the Amway Cobra Commander idea. Click here.

  34. Joecool permalink
    November 25, 2008 5:57 pm

    “And all the stuff that you repeat over and over again, most are PARTLY true–you are not recording the FULL picture,

    So Bridgett, you claim what I have stated is “partly true” yet you have nothing to refute anything I claimed nor did you mention what has changed in the last ten years. The same abuses that occurred ten years ago are very likely occurring now and by mostly the same leaders.

    The only difference I can clearly see now is that the leaders are not or were not what they stood for on stage. Some have divorced, some have tols major lies (we don’t make profit on tools), we pay our homes in cash. They are not the pillars of responsibility that they portray. This is not to say all of the leaders are this way, but surely enough of them to raise a large controversy.

    You can avoid the issues by disappearing, but I assure you and maing statements and then running away without addressing them does not help your cause.

  35. November 25, 2008 7:23 pm


    What “cause”? I have no cause.

    Being an IBO is ONE of my many roles. I DO exist outside the world of Amway Global.

    Here is a great post by Chuck Lia at Speaking of Amway. I read it today and it is why it’s just STUPID for you and me to talk anymore.

    We have two totally different motives regarding why we discuss the Amway Business online. We go round and round and round. I address the issue of a thread, and then you start bringing up a bunch of other crap, that been addressed before MANY TIMES around blogworld, and then say I’m skirting the issues when in reality IT IS A WASTE OF MY TIME to talk to you.

    I can address every single thing you say, but the question is: WHY?

    Again, who are the readers of this blog?

    Here’s Chuck’s post:

    Now it’s bedtime for my kids.

    I hope you enjoy Chuck’s post.

  36. Porkchopjim permalink
    November 26, 2008 8:13 am

    Just wondering if you have looked at current products AG has, or is your statement based on info from more than 14 months ago?

    Seeing as I picked apart an Achieve from the spring – that’s less than 14 months ago.

    The ‘current’ products AG is selling to IBOs doesn’t look much different than yesterday’s offerings…unless you want to include the famous ‘Perfect Water’ miracles and ‘XS Gold’ which will launch IBOs to levels of business success not seen since ‘XS’ – which, um, created a great way to consume PV but didn’t appear to propel anyone other than to the restroom to get rid of caffeine and excess B vitamins.

    I’ve seen over and over again IBOs come through and say both “it’s not like that for me” and “it’s all different now”, but when pushed – it IS like that for them and it’s not different.

  37. Joecool permalink
    November 26, 2008 10:42 am

    Bridgett says I did not paint the whole picture when I described abusive practices that happened ten years ago and are still occuring today. But she does not want to complete the picture.

    FYI- who visits this blog? Supporters, critics and interested parties which may include prospects.

    So does Bridgett think passing by and saying “you’re wrong you’re wrong you’re wrong” and disappearing makes her case?

    I keep hearing “my group doesn’t do that” or “things are different”. But as PCJ says, then we later find out that your group still does that, and things are not different.

    No, the business has not made substantial changes that helps the IBO, and that’s really the issue isn’t it?

  38. Joecool permalink
    November 26, 2008 11:09 am

    Here’s a Blogpost I wrote in September:

    Monday, September 22, 2008
    Quixtar and Amway – Ten Years Later, What Has Changed?

    I was actually active as an IBO about 11 years ago. One of the things I often hear from clueless supporters of Amway/Quixtar, is that my points about the business are not valid because I was active quite a while ago. But looking closely at the business, what has really changed in the business? And if I may add, one of biggest clueless defenders of the business hasn’t been active since the year 2000 or so.

    Lets see, the business went online since I left. But wait! I did hear and confirm that some WWDB groups were still doing call in and pick up as recently as a year or two ago. Some supporters claimed it was so the group could interact and have personal contact. I also heard that this allows upline to manipulate PV. The readers can decide.

    The IBOs went from Amvox to KATE. KATE is a big moneymaker for some uplines and KATE doesn’t give the IBO PV or BV.

    Uplines still make a significant income from selling business support materials.

    Many IBOs still use trickery to get people to see the plan.

    Very few people have gone diamond. In fact, it appears that most of the new diamonds are coming from countries outside of the US. (Perhaps where the name saturation hasn’t occured)

    Some major groups still teach “buy from yourself”.

    So what has changed in the business? A recent famous quip applies here: “You can put lipstick on a pig, but……….”

  39. Gina permalink
    November 26, 2008 12:00 pm

    I know that my college student cousin and some of her friends were prospected 2 weeks ago and here is the shocker…they were told that the biz is simple all they have to do is buy the products they already purchase at Walmart or Target through their own “store” and teach others to do the same. She had asked me about this so I told her what she could ask her would be sponsor…so she asked about retailing (amongst other things) and she was told that retailing is an option but not where the most success will come from. Could be this IBO is resistant to change, could be they didn’t get the message, could be a lot of things but until the IBO’s are out and about retailing above sponsoring, then nothing has yet changed.

    PS…how to tell when Bridgett is stumped….she says something about spending time with her family and wishes everyone well. Actually many IBO’s do that when they can no longer reasonably debate the facts. Is this a tools teaching? Have they yet to change that message? With all this change going on, how is it IBO’s would still resort to such a useless retort?

    Well, I am going to close up my office now and go spend time with my lovely daughter and spicy Italian husband, so you all have a great Thanksgiving!!!!!

  40. November 26, 2008 1:57 pm

    Bridgett will be more successful playing Candyland with her hubby & kids than she is in Amway.

    Forgive her folks, she doesn’t realize a few things, namely:

    1. Amway has NOT changed. Her saying it has doesn’t make it so.

    2. Nobody uses smiley icons anymore. lol Baffling! lol

    3. Amway prices are NOT competitive.

    4. North America Amway is stagnant.

    5. Nobody gives a rat’s ass about her gorgeous hunk of a hubby or her kids. Just explain what you mean when you give (what passes to her as) an answer.

    So Bridgett what has changed? lol shocking lol.

    Thought so. Nothing. If you want answers to just be accepted, stick to the Amway talk chat rooms.

    I speak of Amway on line because I think it’s detrimental to most if they get involved in this business.

    I still haven’t figured out why you’re trying to discuss it. You think it’s all OK, yet you keep saying you’re leaving to spend time with your family, only to return!

    If you think there’s nothing wrong with Amway, then why do you care what we think?

    If you know you aren’t changing our minds, why do you keep trying?

    This Thanksgiving, I’m thankful that I’m not a confused person.

    Let’s all wish Bridgett the best.

  41. mike permalink
    November 26, 2008 2:51 pm

    The basic issue is this, it either works or it don’t. No matter what Critics or Supporters say.

    It works or it does not.

    If it is working what difference does it make what the critics say, as well as supporters.

    It works or it does not.

    What I can gather about the “debate” is, Critic are stating why Amway does not work, from their experience. The Supporter are not stating how it works, there is talk about planning on doing something, or things are changing, but basically that is all.

    The Supporters as it seems are trying to find ways to make it work. They are still searching..still questioning their involvement.

    Tex, wants to change the tools.
    David, wants to change the internet
    Brigette wants to change the retail image.

    But really do they truly understand the nature of the Amway business, is it really working for them, or are they hoping on something to change in the future..??

  42. mike permalink
    November 26, 2008 2:52 pm


  43. November 27, 2008 1:12 pm

    I don’t know if I want to “change the retail image”.

    I’m not about image. I’m about what works. I believe, after fighting it for a loooong time, that retailing (defined as selling products above IBO cost to non-IBOs)is critical for the success (profitability and sustainability)of one’s Amway Global business.

    I’ve explained why I think this in my November 22nd comment on this thread.

    I cannot control all of what the 3 million IBOs/ABOs do around the world. I can’t even control what the IBOs do in my own organization. I am not here representing the IBOs/ABOs of the world. I am not here representing any LOA nor any Corporation.

    I am here representing me and my Amway Global business, and to express what is working for me. Just like I can’t force my kids to do anything. All I can do is lead by example. And it’s their choice if they’d like to follow suit.

    Do I like to retail? Let’s put it this way, I like the results. And so I focus on the results. Just like I am not one of those people who loooooves to go work out and lift weights. However, I know short-term and long-term it is a good thing and will benefit me.

    It is a massive undertaking that is occuring with Amway Global. The way things have been done for 25 years, particularly when it involves not just employees at a corporation, but hundred of thousands of people intertwinded by the sheer nature of the business model, is not going to be changed overnight.

    We saw what happened in August 2007 when you cut off the head of an organization.

    Being someone who actually has a vested interest in seeing the success of the corporation (unlike you, Rocket, Gina, joecool, QIAC/Bob Hart, porkchopjim, and Amthrax) I appreciate the delicate care with which the corporation is taking in turning their massive ship around.

    Happy Thanksgiving to you as well. I’m about to go whip the potatoes…BTW, I make comments about what I do off the computer just to give a little insight to my “real” world. 😉

  44. Joecool permalink
    November 28, 2008 10:20 am

    I have to disagree. THe LOS’s were leftto their own devices and possibly scammed billions of dollars from millions of IBOs over the years. All the while the corporation profited from the LOS teachings and they were able to claim that they cannot do anything about the things that millions ob IBOs do.

  45. November 28, 2008 4:23 pm

    Here’s a quote from Chuck Lia on The Truth About Amway:

    “Anyone who can’t see the many, many positive things going on in Amway today simply doesn’t want to see them and likely has agenda of their own — an agenda often mean-spirited and not easily impressed by the facts. In my mind, that is unconscionable and displays a real lack of integrity across the board. I do not believe that is true of all critics, but it appears to be true of many of them.”

  46. Joecool permalink
    November 28, 2008 4:39 pm

    It’s interesting when you post that Bridgett, because in my experience in blogging, it seems that much of the name calling such as “broke losers”, “failures”, “quitters” all come from IBOs and are used to label (often) fair criticism of the Amway/Quixtar opportunity. I have also noticed that IBOs who are respectful with critics are often treated with mutual respect.

    Maybe you are unawar of this but your own beloved IBOFB was called a “cyberbully” by Beth Dornan on her Insidee Quixtar blog because of disparaing things he posted about me.

    It cuts both ways.

  47. November 28, 2008 7:17 pm

    For the record, this the the blog post of Beth Dornan that “joecool” is referring to:

    I do not see anyone’s name, including IBOFB, mentioned.

    Amthrax, I suggest you close this thread before I post a link to “the joecool threat story”.

    And for the record, I am married to a man who has over 15 years as an investigative newspaper reporter in the Chicagoland area. He can pretty much find anything out, if he (or his wife) cares enough. The question becomes, can someone push me enough to the point of caring? Hmmm… 😉

  48. November 29, 2008 10:26 am

    I’ll step into moderating comments if the discussion gets really out of control. Everyone who comments here has the responsibility to keep things at a civil level.

  49. mike permalink
    November 29, 2008 4:23 pm

    For Bridgett,

    From Beth Dorman’s post “I was disturbed to read that someone who has been critical of this business has been harassed and disparaging information about him posted by a cyber bully.”

    There is no meantion of any names. Now the only person that would be able to connect names to the above would be Beth Dorman.

    You made the following statement in the comments section.

    “The “cyber bully” brought to light the activities that this “critic” has written about on a not-so-family-friendly website. Some people are focusing on the “deeds” that this “critic” supposedly did/does.”

    Who were you talking about?

    By the way, I whipped the taters at my family Thankgiving dinner..:-)

  50. November 29, 2008 8:43 pm

    One of my “issues” is when someone is quoted out of context. I do notice that “joecool” does that often, and many of the critics seem totally fine with that, without searching out the full context.

    When one pulls a quote out of context, one might as well say that one misquoted the person. It’s also “nitpicking”, kind of like a nagging wife does, rather than getting the BIG PICUTRE of what’s being said.

    So Mike, let’s look at my entire comment I made from which you are pulling a quote.

    It might shed some light on the MAIN POINTS of my comment:

    “A great man in my life told me something he learned in J-school (journalism school): ‘If your mother tells you she loves you, check it out.’

    Perhaps cynical, but food for thought in this day and age of the Internet, where people will write things that they would NEVER say out loud to one person let alone to a group of people.

    The Internet though, unlike the words we speak, is ‘forever’. Able to be read over and over again by an audience that includes the world. A constant reminder of one’s stupidity—I say this to myself, as I think of some of my earlier hot-tempered posts on Inside Quixtar.

    The ‘cyber bully’ brought to light the activities that this ‘critic’ has written about on a not-so-family-friendly website. Some people are focusing on the ‘deeds’ that this ‘critic’ supposedly did/does.

    Those deeds are not the issue.

    The critic himself, has claimed that is he did not do these deeds. He goes on to write (on another blog that a comment on this thread has a link to):

    ‘Writing stories and actually doing something are two different issues.’

    So…does that mean that all the TENS of THOUSANDS of words this critic has written, all those hateful, negative, disparaging words about this Corporation, an LOA, and PEOPLE associated with this business opportunity, are STORIES, products of his imagination?

    The issue is that if this critic believes that writing stuff on the Internet are ‘stories’, then everything he has ever written about his alleged experiences as an IBO is called in to question, isn’t it?

    There is a way of being critical without being ruthless, vengeful, spiteful, and just plain nasty.

    It is disturbing and sad to me to see how this critic toys with IBOs on the Internet. To him and his fellow cronies it is a game, a form of entertainment.

    IBOs are not people. They are just characters in their virtual realities.

    And for some IBOs, these critics are not people. Just characters in *their* virtual realities.

    A sad, empty pitiful imitation world for ALL involved.

    Excuse me while I go hug my kids and tell them how much I love them.


    (Ya see how I ended it with something from the “real” world? I guess I didn’t know I had a pattern even back in January.) 🙂

  51. mike permalink
    November 30, 2008 1:44 am

    Brigette, as far as me quoting out of context, that was not an issue. I was not inferring anything by the quote,nor inplying that there was more said, just that you added to what Beth Dorman stated.

    Beth was somewhat general in her statement, outside of the use of the word “him”, her comment could have been about almost anyone.

    However you used the phrase “The ‘cyber bully’ brought to light the activities that this ‘critic’ has written about on a not-so-family-friendly website. Some people are focusing on the ‘deeds’ that this ‘critic’ supposedly did/does.”

    The context of the quote is referring to what Beth Dorman stated as well as added a more specific action by the “critic” And in the same post you continue to be specific about the said critic

    “The critic himself, has claimed that is he did not do these deeds. He goes on to write (on another blog that a comment on this thread has a link to):

    ‘Writing stories and actually doing something are two different issues.’”

    Although you do not see any names mentioned in Beth Dorman’s blog post, as you stated on this blog.
    “For the record, this the the blog post of Beth Dornan that “joecool” is referring to:
    I do not see anyone’s name, including IBOFB, mentioned.”

    I am asking who you are talking about, in your statement.
    “The ‘cyber bully’ brought to light the activities that this ‘critic’ has written about on a not-so-family-friendly website. Some people are focusing on the ‘deeds’ that this ‘critic’ supposedly did/does.”

    So my question remains, if you claim that there in no mention of the names of “IBOFIGHTBACK” or “anyone” are not mentioned in Beth Dorman’s blog, based on her comment.

    Then in your more specfic comment to Beth’s blog, then who are you talking about?

  52. November 30, 2008 3:56 am

    Beth was actually responding to a post where JoeCool claimed he had been receiving threats. The “bully” was clearly the threat making.

    It was later established (in comments on JoeCools site that JoeCool later deleted) that JoeCool made up the threats.

    So the “bully” never existed, it was JoeCool trying to “strike first” for sympathy when he found out someone knew about his illegal activities and marital infidelity.

    *the truth about amway>

  53. Gina permalink
    November 30, 2008 5:56 pm


    It is easy for any one at the corp to say that there is change going on and that those who do not believe that there is change have their own agenda, but if this “change” isn’t being projected to non-IBO’s then how is it to be perceived? Lets leave out the critics and IBO’s alike for right now…what about the average folk who are neither critic or IBO? There are plenty who have a negative opinion of Amway. Shouldn’t this change be seen by them as well? These are the people IBO’s are recruiting, and should be retailing to so shouldn’t their view of Amway be that there is change and what that change was or is? Or does the corp think that the average person has their own agenda as well???

    And anytime an IBO, any IBO wants to prove that their biz works it would be as simple as presenting a valid P/L. That would most certainly end the tired debate of whether the biz works or not. Even if the IBO is a new IBO, or not working the biz as much as others or whatever excuse can be thought of for why an IBO isn’t walking the beaches yet, is irrelevant. When a business keeps an accurate P/L simple calculations can be made to see the profitability of the business…that’s kinda the point of a P/L. But of course there is ALWAYS an excuse followed by some illogical reasoning as to why commonly discussed information in the business world shouldn’t be shared by an IBO.

  54. December 1, 2008 9:46 am


    If “joecool” stopped lying, and accusing people, aka libeling them, then there would be no need for anyone to correct what he writes on the Internet, yes?

    His lying brings in to question the credibility of any and all his claims regarding the Amway Business and the LOA of which he speaks, Gina.

    And those things I DO care a “rat’s a$$” about.

    When we were in Prague on the “blogging panel” a question was asked as to whether bloggers should be given the same credibility as journalists.

    And my response was, “Just like with a journalist, just because someone is called a journalist doesn’t mean they are credible. Some publications and some journalists clearly do not carry the same credibility as others, because they don’t not follow the same standards of integrity and character.

    And I believe the same is true regarding bloggers and blogs.”

    Are there problems with the Amway Business and with LOAs? Absolutely. Are they being resolved? Yes. As quickly as many of us would like? No. Transformation, not just putting a band-aid on a gushing wound, but true transformation, takes time.

    The point being, as Chuck Lia’s wrote:
    Anyone who can’t see the many, many positive things going on in Amway today simply doesn’t want to see them and likely has agenda of their own — an agenda often mean-spirited and not easily impressed by the facts. In my mind, that is unconscionable and displays a real lack of integrity across the board. I do not believe that is true of all critics, but it appears to be true of many of them.”

  55. December 1, 2008 11:28 am

    Alright… time to close down comments on this thread.

    I unapproved some of the comments since they were moving into the personal attack arena. Everyone has their skeletons in their closet (hey, I have Amway in mine!), but this really isn’t the forum to start attacking each other with them.

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