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Is This Amway?

February 12, 2009

The proper answer to this question is “Yes.”

Not, something like this:

I contract with Amway Global through (Organization/LOA’s name.) Are you familiar with (Organization/LOA’s name?) They usually answer ‘no’ or ‘I don’t think so.’ I follow up with: You’re probably more familiar with our Power Brands Nutrilite & Artistry.

I feel this is very misleading. Dropping the LOS name is a way to deflect the true answer you should be giving to your prospects and customers, that you are a contracted sales representative for Amway Global.

What’s wrong in saying that?

You’re not going through your LOS to get to Amway; you signed a document with Amway Global when you became an IBO. Did you also sign a document with your LOS? Now, it’s been several years since I was an IBO, but I don’t ever recall doing so with INA (my LOS at the time). The BSMAA yes, but that’s something altogether different.

You Amway business is built by selling products, not tools. The System’s purpose is to sell tools and function tickets. “Our” power brands Nutrilite and Artistry does not include WWDB, INA, Yager, Britt, or N21 on its labels.

My point is if you’re content with hiding behind your LOS/LOS/System’s name instead of the Amway name, you’re probably not going to get far in your Amway business. Sooner or later the truth is going to come out, and you’re going to look like an idiot to your customer and prospect, who’s going to feel like s/he’s received the bait and switch.

Joecool has more thoughts on this topic.

IBOFB has thoughts on this topic on The Truth About Amway.

43 Comments leave one →
  1. Joecool permalink
    February 12, 2009 2:48 pm

    This sounds like a thread I posted resently. It’s how IBOs deny quixtar was not Amway. Now they are doing similar because the official name is Amway global.

    Or they deny other claims by saying they are WWDB or BWW or exampls, and they work “closely with Amway”. These claims are deceptive. When you register for the “biz”, you are an Amway IBO or an Amway Global IBO. Your checks come from Amway.

    You are right, deception about this is building your business on a house of cards.

  2. MichMan permalink
    February 12, 2009 8:52 pm

    IBOFB’s response to the Amway question may be a half truth/half lie.

    But it is better than the full lies that have been told for decades.

  3. FreeFromQ* permalink
    February 12, 2009 10:06 pm

    I never understand why IBOs are so ashamed of being an authorized reseller of Amway products.

    I have never heard of a McDonald’s owner being ashamed of selling burgers and fries!!

  4. February 13, 2009 12:11 am

    MichMan…

    Half lies are ,after all, are lies are they not?

  5. February 13, 2009 5:56 am

    Friends,

    I *am* ashamed of being labeled a “sales representative” of Amway, but proud to be an independent contractor.

    I pray that the powers that be at Amway learn about/acknowledge the difference soon, honour it and stop using terms such as “salesforce” in their relationship with us.

  6. MichMan permalink
    February 13, 2009 6:01 am

    quiac, thank you for making my point.

    freefromQ*, can you imagine a new car dealer that does not tell people what kind of cars he sells? No Chevrolet sign on the street? No Ford logo on the business card?

    Also, here are some comments on this topic from another blog:

    ______________________________

    Kinda like saying…

    “I live closely on Earth”

    “The Earth is the planet that is my supplier.”

    ______________________________

  7. MichMan permalink
    February 13, 2009 8:45 am

    I don’t think Amway is going to get rid of the word “salesforce.”

    Guess why?

    You are their SALES PEOPLE!!!

    Their *new* business model is:

    1- Buy from yourself
    2- SELL some to your friends and make a profit (Gee… a PROFIT! What a concept!)
    3- Teach others to do the same

    (The next step is to try and find people who are willing to pay $13 plus shipping for a can of shaving cream)

  8. February 13, 2009 9:03 am

    MichMan said, “… can you imagine a new car dealer that does not tell people what kind of cars he sells? No Chevrolet sign on the street? No Ford logo on the business card?”

    Assuming that the Chevrolet was supplied by Notebook Inc., am I supposed to go around saying, “I am a salesman/reseller for Notebook Inc.?” and subsequently to imprint the Notebook Inc. logo on my business cards?

    Of course NOT. Notebook Inc. is the company that supplies my product flow, while the brand is Chevrolet.

    As for Salesforce, guess what – IBOs are NOT AMWAY SALESPEOPLE!!

    We are, at best, “resellers” of Amway-manufactured products, NOT “salesforce” employed by Amway.

  9. Porkchopjim permalink
    February 13, 2009 9:31 am

    Rykel,

    You can pretend all you want, but you are an Amway salesman.

    “Resellers” are salesmen, too.

    You are not ’employed’ – you work on commission.

    It’s a lie when you say “Amway is one of my many suppliers”…because you don’t get a check from ‘many suppliers’ – you get one from one source no matter WHO provided the product: Amway.

    Just like Amthrax’s post says – IBOs just can’t seem to be honest about who they are and what they do. Why is that?

  10. Joecool permalink
    February 13, 2009 9:49 am

    Here’s a really deceptive answer from another website. Check it out:

    Hi there,

    I came across your comments on Network 21. I’ve worked with both Amway and Network 21 for several years, both in Australia and other countries. Most of what I read on your site indicates you truly don’t understand how the Amway opportunity works or how Network 21 works with it.

    Firstly, I’d like to address the issue of the relationship between N21 and Amway and IBOs. For an IBO, both Network 21 and Amway are suppliers. An IBO is neither an employee of Amway or Network 21. The IBOAmway link is obviously stronger than a normal product supplier, it is more like a franchising agreement. Any IBO denying a link with Amway is obviously being dishonest, and in my experience, as stated by your other correspondent, Network 21 does not condone or teach that. We work very closely with Amway.

  11. mike permalink
    February 13, 2009 2:48 pm

    If is walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, and swims like a duck…

    Is it a duck or a indepedent foul?

    The IBO is a commision only salesperson..

    It is their “own” business in the that they can sell when and where they want to (as specified by the contract they signed.

    The product that are sold are approved by Amway, and bought from Amway..and the commission payout is controlled by Amway..

  12. FreeFromQ* permalink
    February 14, 2009 2:20 pm

    The love/hate aspect of “IBOs” towards Amway in general always fascinates me.

    I’ve been doing some seasonal tax work and I spoke to a lady needing assistance with some Schedule C entries just a couple of days ago. When I asked her what she does, she replied “I’m a Avon representative – I sell Avon products!”

    She sure seemed proud of what she did and didn’t try to hide behind acronyms and words gleaned by hours studying a thesaurus.

    It’s called direct selling….

    The company who provides that “IBO” number to you is….you guessed it! Amway!

    The next time someone asks me what make my convertible is, I won’t say I own a Chrysler….
    I guess I should start saying that Chrysler is my “supplier” and I’m a “independent” car owner.

    God forbid if anyone found out I *gasp* DROVE a Chrysler!

  13. MichMan permalink
    February 15, 2009 7:00 am

    Rykel,

    Why not do this. If you sell Chevrolets, be proud of that name and stop trying to run from it.

    For some reason I get prospected by Amway people regularly. I can spot them a mile away.

    I ask them what the do for a living and they look you in the eye with very specific answers.

    But when they bring up their business opportunity they start hemming and hawing, looking all over the place.

    This once smart person suddenly turns into an ignoramous. He can’t even say what he does.

    How hard is it to say
    “I operate a Chevy Dealership/Amway Business”?

  14. Gina permalink
    February 16, 2009 9:28 am

    O please there is nothing independent about being an IBO at all.
    Can an IBO add products manufactured by a different company and distributed by someone other than Amway?
    Can an IBO use Amway’s name on business cards and other standard tools without getting permission first?
    Can IBO’s open a store selling their precious products and clearly stating that they are from Amway without the very same kind of permission?
    Do IBO’s have to(in theory) abide by very detailed rules and code of conduct decided upon by Amway themselves and enforced by Amway?
    If an IBO, without twisting reality, answers yes to any of the above well, then they are salespeople. Its simple really.

  15. February 16, 2009 9:54 am

    MichMan:

    Tonight I CAN agree with you! Yes, indeed, IBOs CAN (but not necessarily should) say, “I operate an Amway business.” (NOT “I sell Amway products.”)

    Indeed, on many occasions I have answered, “I am a professional Network Marketer” when asked what I do for a living, and it really depends on whether being direct will trigger negative preconceived ideas in the prospect’s mind.

    Gina:
    Can a McDonald’s Franchisee (MF) add products manufactured by a different company and distributed by someone other than McDonald’s (McD)?
    Can a MF use McD’s name on business cards and other standard tools without getting the franchise first?
    Can MF’s start an ecommerce website selling their precious products and clearly stating that they are from McD without the very same act of getting the franchise first?
    Do MF’s have to(in theory) abide by very detailed rules and code of conduct decided upon by McD HQ themselves and enforced by McD?

    Finally, just because IBOs play within guidelines and rules designed to create a level playing field, that does NOT make them salespeople. Its simple really.

    God Bless,

    Rykel
    http://rykel.blogspot.com

  16. Joecool permalink
    February 17, 2009 9:52 am

    Amway IBOs are not franchisees. Amway is not a franchisor.

    The vast majority of McDonald’s owners make a decent profit. They do so because it is a proven system. When you sign on to obtain a franchise, you are set up to succeed. McDonald’s researches the location and the demographics so your store is successful.

    In Amway, IBOs are so desperate to sign people up, they lie, deceive and sign up anyone who breathes. It is why Amway has such a bad reputation. Comparing McDonald’s to Amway is a poor comparison. Sort of like comparing a skateboard to a nice car.

  17. Gina permalink
    February 17, 2009 10:45 am

    Rykel,
    More grand teachings from your adored system I assume…to answer questions with questions. Everyone knows this is a sophmoric attempt to deflect the topic.
    Here is the fundamental problem with your lack of logic…Amway does not sell franchises. They are not listed nor are they considered by anyone, not even themselves to be a franchisor. There are very strict laws governing franchises and franchisors,one being a law against inter-franchise competition within a set georaphic range, which clearly Amway does not need to worry about because they do not need to abide by such laws as they do not sell franchises. When someone inquires about a franchise they are given a thorough business analisis including a current P/L, B/S, forcast, budget of not only the franchisror but of some of the areas better franchisees. A franchisee has a very clear say in any business practice that the franchisor may want to change or implement. Most importantly, a franchisee does not consider themselves to be an Independant Business Owner as they are not independant Business Owners nor do they go around town looking for others to join up with them saying such. An IBO does not buy the right to the Amway name and business model. An IBO buys a membership that allows them access to purchase and sell products…like salesmen. Amway does not provide free training, seminars, marketing, or necessary business tools.
    This is just to start, but as you can see there are absolutely no simularities between being an Amway IBO or a McDonald’s Franchisee.
    Do all IBO’s twist logic and remove themselves from reality in this way to justify their crap business?

  18. Joecool permalink
    February 17, 2009 3:49 pm

    When I was in WWDB, the upline leaders used to teach that we were “private” franchises.

    I remembered how strange that was because even within WWDB, people ran their businesses very differently.

    I had a crossline friend with a different upline diamond and they way they ran product pick up and some other functions were different. Not to mention, if we were running as franchises, woudn’t the teaching come from Amway and not an LOS?

  19. Gina permalink
    February 19, 2009 9:15 am

    I notice there has been no further information provided on how Amway is like a McDonald’s franchise….hmmmm. Could it be becuase clearly even IBO’s finally can see the truth? Time to start searching for a new justification and poor comparison.

  20. Joecool permalink
    February 19, 2009 9:50 am

    I’ll give you a comparison between IBOs and McDonald’s.

    A McDonald’s employee working 8-10 hours per week at minimum wage cleaning the floors makes more money than an average IBO.

  21. Joecool permalink
    February 19, 2009 10:45 am

    This blogpost inspired by recent comments here:

    http://thefactsabouttheamwayopportunity.blogspot.com/2009/02/amway-global-opportunity-versus-working.html

  22. February 19, 2009 6:24 pm

    Gina,

    Be patient… this week, many IBOs in my country are out of country for a Weekend Leadership Seminar, so you would not hear much from them.

    Do you think IBOs have no business, are sitting in front of the PC reading blog comments all the time and not out showing more Plans? 😉

    Anyway, when I am back, I will take some time to reply, but meanwhile, I thank you for taking the time to analyse how franchisees and IBOs are “zero” similarity.

  23. February 19, 2009 6:31 pm

    joecool,

    While I appreciate your recommendations for IBOs to work for McDonald’s and increase their income, I would like to highlight that there is a fundamentally flawed aspect of your understanding, and I said that with no intention of offending – so don’t take it personally please.

    Basically, the people working for a McDonald’s Franchisee (employees) are NOT the Franchisee.

    Likewise, the people working for IBOs are not IBOs.

    So, the proper corresponding roles should be:

    McDonald’s – Franchisees – Employees – Customers
    Amway Global – IBOs – Employees – Customers

    Thank you for updating your blog, correcting this little factual error and stating so.

  24. Joecool permalink
    February 20, 2009 10:14 am

    Hi Rykel,

    Thanks for visiting my blog. I think you misunderstood my blog post. I am simply pointing out that someone working 5 hours a week at McDonald’s earns more cash than an average IBO.

    Also, I think you have the relationship with Amway global mistaken as well. It should be Amway Global – sales people or Amway Global – Customers who mistake themselves as IBOs.

  25. Porkchopjim permalink
    February 20, 2009 2:55 pm

    Seems to me that IBOs have no business and spend their time sitting in ‘Leadership Seminars.’

    Being a professional student isn’t much of a business.

  26. Gina permalink
    February 20, 2009 6:04 pm

    Rykel,
    If IBO’s have a business to run then how is it they, as you say, aren’t sitting in front of the PC instead of showing plans yet can certainly take the time to sit in weekend long seminars quite often and not to mention the many other weekly meetings they attend? Doesn’t make any sense.
    First, I am not waiting for any other IBO’s to respond. My post was in response to your comparison of Amway IBO’s to McDonald’s franchisees, so why would I be waiting for yet another IBO to respond? Isn’t logical.
    Second, you say in one post there isn’t time but then in the very next post you take the time to question Joecools blog post from another blog pertaining to the issues raised here that you just said you didn’t have time to answer. Doesn’t make sense.

    The issue here is not time, it is very clearly that you, nor any other IBO for that matter, can logically come up with any kind of information/facts that would explain how an Amway IBOship is like a McDonald’s franchisee….because it isn’t. Present just one link where Amway themselves say they are selling franchises, or where Amway/Quixtar/Alticor is listed as a franchisor. Explain where exactly in the very lengthy rules and code of conduct, which many of us have copies of and have read, where it includes the franchise laws that would, by law, need to be included if in fact Amway was selling franchises. Simply really and would not be time consuming at all. But in true deceitful IBO way of life, rather than to admit the error, IBO’s seem to deem it better to answer questions with questions, deflect the topic, attack the messenger, and come up with many excuses as to why they can’t explain themselves further. Must be what they teach in all those “leadership seminars”.

  27. Gina permalink
    February 20, 2009 6:07 pm

    On a side note….my post was made on Tuesday February 17…a whole 4 days (including tuesday itself) before the weekend. How much time is needed exactly for these weekend seminars or to respond to the simple facts that were presented? Yet another detail that makes no sense.

  28. mike permalink
    February 22, 2009 3:29 am

    The problem with many IBO’s is they have accepted the information that is given to them by their upline as fact, because it is in “their best intrest” and that is much easier to accept than to question anything..all in the name of greed.

    Which is what the upline wants..

    For a scam/con/lie to work, there must be those that accept whatever is presented as fact..

    Which goes back to what the system is designed to do..put the person in a postion of not only accepting the lies but to present the lies themselves.

  29. MichMan permalink
    February 23, 2009 7:28 am

    BTW, here are a few regulations that every franchisor must follow to operate in the United States:

    1- All franchisors must provide a Uniform Franchise Offoring Circular (UFOC) to all potential franchisees with a 10 day cooling off period before the franchisee may purchase. (I believe it is now 14 days)

    2- The UFOC must include the name and telephone number of every current franchisee.

    3- The UFOC must include the name and telephone number of every FORMER franchisee.

    4- Neither the UFOC nor the franchise sales person may make ANY earnings claims (no 2-5 year plan for financial freedom)

    5- The UFOC must list all current and former lawsuits of the franchisor and it’s principals.

    Amway and its distributor force could never stand up to this amount of scrutiny.

    Never question your upline. You must honor and respect them. Accept everything they say without thinking. They don’t succeed unless you do. (eyes rolling)

  30. Gina permalink
    February 23, 2009 11:55 am

    Well look at that…yet more solid proof that Amway does not sell franchises.
    Thanks for the info MichMan.
    Still waiting for some response from Rykel about how wrong we are. How long do we think he will need to recover from that seminar????

  31. Joecool permalink
    February 23, 2009 12:38 pm

    I’ll give Rykel one thing. He has been courteous in his blogging.

    But this is one of those issues where there really is no debate. Amway is not a franchisor and Amway IBOs are not franchisees.

    Regardless of what uplines lie about, this is a cut and dry issue. If Amway were in the business of franchising, that would be abundantly clear by now.

  32. Joecool permalink
    February 24, 2009 2:03 pm

    I guess the important thing about this post is why do IBOs feel a need to lie about what they do? Is it because they are ashamed about something or they have something to hide?

    If you own a McDonald’s restaurant, I’m sure you would say I’m a McDonald’s owner if someone asks you. Or would you say you own a fast food conglomerate that competes with Arby’s and Burger King?

  33. Porkchopjim permalink
    February 24, 2009 5:31 pm

    Rykel tends to be scarce when he finds not-so-comfortable answers to his tapespeak challenges. Which is quite often.

    Must be at a ‘leadership seminar.’

  34. MichMan permalink
    February 25, 2009 6:47 am

    The “curiosity approach” give a whole new meaning to the phrase “name dropping.”

    The Amway name is dropped completely from their vocabulary. Even at seminars, it was always referred to as “the company” or “the corporation.”

  35. Gina permalink
    February 25, 2009 9:58 am

    It is lying and IBO’s do it because even they know deep down that something isn’t right. They lie and compare themselves with a McDonalds franchise or lie and not mention the Amway Global name because they need to quiet that inner reason that is trying to be louder than the chants of “freedom” and “flush that stinking job”. Lying to justify a crap opportunity is still lying.

    I am going out on a limb but I am sure we will never here from Rykel about this topic again. There is just no discussion and he knows it. IBO style dictates that an IBO never admit to be wrong either due to lying, misunderstanding, miscommunication or any other way because that would mean that they don’t know everything or that they are in fact outright lying. Which do we guess it is here?

  36. FreeFromQ* permalink
    February 28, 2009 2:20 pm

    Maybe when IBOs start selling Big Macs and Quarter Pounders w/cheese they could legitimately start comparing themselves to McD’s!

    Just imagine – over-inflated IBO prices and burgers that taste like Shaq bars……YUM!

    Since the new “in” thing by Amway apologists is to (weakly) threaten slander/libel for daring to criticize their precious “opportunity” …… maybe those same apologists will want to note false advertising and misrepresentation can get one afoul with the law, too.

  37. March 2, 2009 5:50 am

    Hi all,

    Thanks to Joecool for the compliment… yes, I am thankful for the opportunity to express myself on the internet, and more so for people like him who takes out precious time to offer his point of view and hence engage in a productive conversation.

    I also think the reader of these comments (YOU) are a great student of ideas and I look forward to serving you with more insights and hearing your views too.

    Obviously there are stiff differences between people but that does not mean that we should be mean to those who disagree with us, right?

    I do NOT think that a person is stupid just because they have yet to come to terms with my opinions – who knows, I might be wrong, I can be wrong and I have been wrong before.

    I only ask that you my fair detractor, also have the courage to say the same, although it really does not matter if you would not.

    Unlike what Gina said, I did not run away from this thread, as I went to St Louis, Missouri, USA for a Winter Convention right after Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia.

    I only had 2 days to pack up after touching down in Singapore and I had to spend quality time with family too. I love my family a lot and would not want to miss out on them.

    I travelled more than 26 hours to reach my hotel beside the Arch and since there was no proper internet connection where I was, and the convention activities went back-to-back, obviously I had to wait until a more suitable time to revert to you all. (like now)

    It is 4.30am at LAX airport and although I am very energetic, yet even the strongest of all men requires sleep, so I shall find the next available slot to fill you all in on the details.

    I AM committed to you, whether you believe it or not.

    By the way, just for your information, I have trips planned for Jakarta/Indonesia (March), Guangzhou/China (April), Bangkok/Thailand (May), Kentucky/USA (June), Hong Kong (July) and so on until the end of the year. Yes, ALL the trips are networking, community-building trips.

    I AM taking time out for this blog AND building the business, and Joecool’s appreciation made my day.

    So I pray for your further understanding and accommodation as I write to this blog out of a very busy schedule, and thank you for your patience and understanding.

    Be right back – and see you at the top of Network Marketing! 🙂

    Rykel in Los Angeles Airport

  38. Porkchopjim permalink
    March 2, 2009 6:19 pm

    Rykel,

    Congrats on becoming an international and faithful source of income to your beloved ‘leaders’ who make more money getting you to go to ‘leadership seminars’ than selling Amway products.

    2 days is ‘quality time’ with your family? You catch what you wrote?

    PS – I remember a park next to the arch, no hotel though. Plus, what fleabag joint did your upline stick you in where they don’t have internet?

  39. Gina permalink
    March 4, 2009 2:02 pm

    So let me get this right…you are saying, Rykel, that you STILL don’t have time to address the very valid issues that have arose from your original comments about IBOships being like franchises yet you AGAIN take the time to first write a somewhat lengthy “thank-you” of sorts for JC saying you have been somewhat cordial and explaining why…very humble and modest by the way, they teach you that at all those seminars?
    Then you go on to explain in some detail of your current and future travels.
    Then you have the audacity to say you will pray for our further understanding as to why you are unable to respond? Really??? You don’t think that God may have better things to do than listen to your BS prayer about you needing more time and understanding from us as to why you are unable to respond to the questions raised?
    Lets face reality shall we? You, Rykel are in fact running away from the issues. You think that by coming in here once in a while and posting some babel about why you don’t have the time to post anything valid addressing the points you raised will deflect the issue that you are running away because you are unable to answer the questions I posed. It would seem that you think that no one will notice that you are taking the time, that you say you don’t have, to make these replies about your time while avoiding the issue.
    Just how long are you hoping this will continue until this thread is forgotten and you subsequently, will be off the hook?

    PS-contrary to what you IBO’s are taught at all those seminars, we too are busy people…many of us with families and careers or businesses of our own to run.

  40. monmakr1 permalink
    March 17, 2009 7:50 am

    Definitions of franchise on the Web:

    an authorization to sell a company’s goods or services in a particular place
    grant a franchise to coduct business

    a statutory right or privilege granted to an entity from another source

    Gina, please explain how Amway doesn’t fall into these definitions. Other then most public franchise, (i.e. McDonalds etc.) have controled territories and large fees attached to them.

  41. Gina permalink
    March 18, 2009 10:31 am

    I have pointed them out. There are strict laws governing franchisors and franchisees…none of which are found in the Amway rules. An IBO pays for the right to sell products and recruit others to be IBO’s NOT to do business under the Amway name. This is why all you IBO’s have made company names like “ABC Marketing” or what have you. An IBO can not even put “Amway” on a store front, business card ect without the express written approval from Amway. It is also franchise law that the financial books be presented of the franchisor as well as various franchisees in your area…clearly Amway does not nor do IBO’s do this. There is a registry of franchises…Amway, Alticor, Quixtar, and/or Access Business Group is not found anywhere on that list. Under the franchise laws it would be Amway’s responsibility to train and educate…FOR FREE…IBO’s…they don’t do they, nor do they have to. And to try and negate the very important law controlling franchise territories is to negate the whole Amway is a franchise theory. You can’t try to make the definition work to your advantage but then disregard the laws governing the entities that fall within that definition.
    Paying a fee to sell Amway products is no different than someone who pays a fee to be able to shop at Sam’s Club to subsequently sell those products as well…you wouldn’t consider a membership to Sam’s Club a franchise would you?
    It is a stretch at best, to try and say that Amway is a franchisor. Not even they themselves will make any claim of the sort so why is it IBO’s think that they can? If Amway is so great and the opportunity that is offered is so great then why the need to make it into something that even they themselves don’t claim to be? It’s great right? So why not just call it as it is rather than try to make it sound more legitimate or a like a better opportunity? MLM is in no way considered to be any type of a franchise…its an MLM.

  42. monmakr1 permalink
    March 18, 2009 1:06 pm

    Okay I can see what you are saying, even though I have to agree to disagree with you on most of the things you bring to bear. I must disclose that I am in no way saying I am a franchisee or a franchisor of any company, and I agree with you on the point that Amway is a MLM or Multi Level Marketing System that they created fifty years ago.

    You, kind of combined a whole bunch of items into a basic question, almost like that type of salesperson that throws enough BS against the wall to see what will stick. I will try to break down the items I am going to try to focus on and then leave the rest to either I can agree with the content to what you are saying or it was a fallacy argument and needs not any further explanations.

    The definitions I gave you were the legal definitions of franchise. It is the definition I learn through both undergraduate and graduate studies. Your definition, even I can’t really understand where you find this definition, but I can give you other franchises’ and if you would explain how they fall into your definition of franchise, then I can understand better.

    The biggest that comes to mind is the sport franchises, Start with the best; New York Yankees Franchise, (oops sorry a little bias there) Lakers Franchise, Dodgers Franchise. They for some reason miss the registry you call for.

    The companies that I have either worked in the past or owned, not in any way associated with the Amway company or its products had to pay a franchise tax to the state they where corporate in. Guess what they weren’t Franchises as you defined nor could you buy there way of business to create an independent business of your own. Those LLCs; that where doing business in another state had to pay what those states call a foreign Company franchise fees or tax.

    The argument of the financial books being presented to the franchisor, very rarely done today, but I have to have them ready for the IRS, so by your definition I am a franchisee of Uncle Sam?? :} Today and technology is making that obsolete and, in the past, if the franchisor didn’t make a percentage of the income stream they never required the viewing in contract. So in your argument, The franchisor that didn’t have a right to a portion of the Income flow, and they couldn’t look at the books, this made them not a franchise? Or illegal I don’t understand. On the reverse coin of this, I am a shareholder of a publicly traded company; I purchase XYZ company for a portion of the cash flows, through a preferred share, called dividends, so by your definition I am a franchisor. Cool!!!! Just t define my thinking, they also are regulated by the states, registered and are under stricter rules then a normal bank account.

    Now lets look at the business card thing and the store front. I have a college friend. When he left college he stated a grocery store. We call it Main Street. When I get my yearly Christmas card from him, He usually throws his business card into the mailing. I don’t see Coke, Pepsi, Boars Head, General Mills, and I guess I could go on and on, but a fact is, 1.) he had to pay at first to sell them also, 2.) That makes his business untrustworthy? 3.) He should run right out and get those names put on a business card that states he sells them. I am pretty sure he would be surprise to find out he was a Sam’s Club and wasn’t charging the annual fee to his customer; also, a franchise cause when he incorporated he had franchise taxes to pay. Now after 25 Years, yes I am aging myself, he owns seven locations, all individually incorporated, and all individually paying corporate franchise tax, Does that make him a franchisee, franchisor I am confuse with your definition.

    Training and education for free, In the web pages you would of seen “Educational Resources’”, and tons of literature through out every page of products. So there is an always been an educational development to the system. There many types of educational programs that you could have taken advantage of. Some you pay for some you don’t. I paid for my graduate and undergrad studies that assisted me in the many endeavors I have taken. All companies give some sort of educational development. All you have to do is look and ask. I know from experience that one must find reason for the lack of success other then one self. Education is usually poor planning and the lack of motivation. Good Luck in your future endeavors and much success where ever that road takes you.

  43. Gina permalink
    March 18, 2009 4:37 pm

    First I didn’t define Franchise did I? Defining a term that doesn’t pertain to the company, Amway, does what? You can choose any definition you wish from any source you wish…Amway still doesn’t sell franchises so none of the definitions apply to Amway in any way.
    Second, you can try to twist and convolute the facts any which way you choose…kinda like a sales man throwing a ton of shit at the wall to see what sticks, still doesn’t change the fact that Amway is in no way shape or form a franchisor and it does not sell franchises, no matter how long they have been in business. Just because you have managed to convince yourself that your sad excuse for a business may fall under a definition of franchise doesn’t mean it is a franchise.
    Third, a sports franchise is a different beast altogether…hence the term SPORTS FRANCHISE…
    Fourth, your business card analysis doesn’t make any sense. If you are saying that Amway is selling Franchises and your friends grocery store in your comparison is supposed to be John the IBO then where did the leap from putting Amway on business cards to putting Nutrilite on them? It doesn’t make sense. The issue wasn’t having to pay first, wasn’t whether it made it untrustworthy and a franchises products, in this discussion, is irrelevant. You obviously missed the whole point of the discussion.
    Fifth, you are dead wrong about the financials being presented to a prospected franchisee. They are very much presented. If they weren’t it would be a violation of the law, in many states and no respectable franchisor would want to open that problem…and why would any would be investor not want a prospectus and in turn why would any respectable franchisor not present it…something to hide? That would be downright stupid as was taught in my undergrad studies and is currently being taught in my husbands grad studies…maybe they don’t teach these logical lessons with online, fly by night schools…I can see your problem.
    Sixth…I have run a successful traditional business for years and have never paid a foreign franchise tax. Making a comparison on paying income taxes and presenting a prospectus is absurd…and supposedly you are educated? Also getting paid a dividend from a company that you have invested in through the stock market and comparing that to a franchise is so far off the wall it borders insanity. Where did I define franchise to ever include such an analogy?
    It is simple really…If Amway was a franchisor and sold franchises and IBO’s were franchisees wouldn’t it be as such? It’s not. Amway doesn’t adhere to the franchise laws, no matter how you wish to twist logic, because they do not need to as they are not franchisors. Point out where Amway either considers themselves or is by anyone other than IBO’s, to be a franchisor? You can continue to try and make Amway something its not but it is kind of like trying to squeeze blood from a turnip now isn’t it? No matter how hard you try to confuse the facts an apple is still an apple…Amway is still Amway…not a franchisor.
    Good luck to you…you need as much as you can get.

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