Skip to content

Leaving Team and Orrin Woodward

March 31, 2009

Why would leaders so praised by the Supreme TEAM Leader ever decide to leave the organization? How could you leave Team if this things like were said about you?

Laurie and I had the blessing to spend a couple of days with Mark and Tami Crawford. We are so impressed by their hunger to improve and grow. The Crawford’s have built large communities and have done so with character, integrity, and teamwork. They are both incredible leaders and how they work together creates synergy. Thank you Mark and Tami for your incredible example of Together Everyone Achieves More. This is a couple to watch as the Team moves on to its goal of 1 million leaders!

I received an email the other day from a reader who said that there has been some turmoil lately amongst the leadership of Team. Several high-level pins have purportedly left Team — the aforementioned Mark and Tami Crawford, Randy and Val Haugen, Don Wilson, Chuck Goetschel, and Lance Smith? — to form their own tools business1. If this is true, Orrin needs to reset his goal of a million members from a lower starting point! I have often compared “building the biz” to building sandcastles; after awhile, the surf comes in and reduces your lovely castle to a pile of sand, forcing you to rebuild it once again. This is something to strongly consider if you decide to join an MLM; the reality of “success” — lifetime, will-able, residual income — may not match the rhetoric heard on stage.

Here’s another quote from Woodward about the dynamic duo from Canada:

Today I would like to congratulate Mark and Tami Crawford for reaching the prestigious Black Diamond level in MonaVie. These two are veterans of the MLM industry and have hit all time record highs in income and influence over the last few months. The average Black Diamond income is over 1.5 million per year. The Crawford’s are some of the best teachers on the Team as they share from their years of experience on how to build and nurture growing communities. It has been said that genius is taking the complex and making it simple and based upon that definition, I believe that Mark and Tami are geniuses in the field of network marketing. They have the biggest Canadian organization on the Team in and perhaps the biggest community of any MLM in Canada. The sky is the limit for this couple as their dreams far outweigh their current reality. When your dreams are bigger than your reality, you are in a growth cycle. The Team is excited about reaching 1 million people and the Canadians are committed to play a big part in that million. Maybe the Canadians will reach a million by themselves and propel the Team into multi-millions! The sky is the limit when you have leadership.

Were these lovely quotes about the Crawfords and Haugens a way to keep them in the Team fold? Control and coercion through edification, that’s what I’d call it! Who is the biggest Canadian organization in Team now that the Crawfords have left? I guess their dreams did not involve sticking with Team. Are they still friends with the Woodwards? Would Orrin and Laurie give Mark and Tami the time of day now that the Crawfords are no longer affiliated with Team? Has Woodward mentioned their departures to the rest of the organization or has he swept the defection under the table without mention?

Edifying people to such lofty levels is a double-edged sword. While you may benefit initially by pumping them up as “geniuses” or “best teachers,” you run the risk of getting cut if these very same people let you down by leaving your organization. What has been shown to be an unassailable truth in multi-level marketing organizations — from Amway to Quixtar to MonaVie — is that greed and political squabbling within the Systems will lead to such splintering and defections.

I’ve read enough of Orrin’s blog posts and watched enough of his videos to know that he is a master in the art of hyperbole. If these claims of a mass defection among the Team leadership are true, what does this say about Woodward’s previous comments about the Crawfords? Do they still hold and are valid? Or, rather are they only useful so as long as they serve his interests and the interests of Team?

Update April 1, 2009: Here is a screenshot from the Featured Leaders Archive page on the Team website. Note how those individuals named in this post are no longer listed here. My source pointed out that Claude and Lana Hamilton were staying on with Team; judging from the screenshot, I’d say that verifies the veracity of the claims.


1 My sources tell me that these kingpins are forming their own MonaVie-specific tools business with free downloadable content. Critics like to point out that tools should be either free or very little cost to the distributor, so I don’t know what to make of this. I find it hard to believe that these kingpins, who have profited greatly from tools while in Amway/Quixtar/MonaVie/Team would let those profits just go away voluntarily.

Update April 3, 2009: You can read more about the new Legacy Professional Development Systems set up by the former Team leaders. According to the commenter Clear the air below, half the Blue and Black Diamonds have left Team. The commenter has more details about the split and the new System being set in place.

109 Comments leave one →
  1. Joecool permalink
    March 31, 2009 1:25 pm

    Amthrax, here’s Rocket’s blog on the Crawfords.

  2. March 31, 2009 2:19 pm

    I just left a comment on his blog. I’m quite certain he will continue controlling information and not post it.

    He sure doesn’t like being challenged.

  3. Candace permalink
    March 31, 2009 3:23 pm

    Amthrax, you called it. Excellent post. I love the phrase you’ve coined, and I think that should be Orrin’s new motto: “Control and Coercion Through Edification”. I think that sums up the entire situation very nicely.
    I am going to link back to your post here on Lazy Man’s blog here:

  4. March 31, 2009 3:47 pm

    I’ve seen another link to a (now-disabled) blog saying something similar to what my reader emailed me:

    So, two pieces of evidence pointing to defections from Team. I’d like to see how this is spun on Orrin’s site.

  5. March 31, 2009 4:09 pm

    xbeliever on the QBlog forum made a good observation. The “free” downloadable tools might be a part of a monthly subscription service. Pay, for instance, $50/month to the ex-Team leaders, and you’ll get “free” downloadable MP3s and PDF tools.

  6. March 31, 2009 6:16 pm

    Funny how Orrin says nothing.

    What a pathetic coward.

  7. FreeFromQ* permalink
    March 31, 2009 6:20 pm

    As much as some people want to deify Orrin – this is not surprising at all. Guess now there will be a little more room during altar call at the church of Orrin.

    If folks want to believe the bright-lights, neatly-pressed, all smiles/all loving facades as gospel – go ahead. I got to see my Emeralds & Diamonds when the lights weren’t shining on them. They were anything but the stage alter-egos they wanted us minions to believe they were.

    Tool money can be a cruel mistress….

  8. March 31, 2009 7:35 pm

    I just think it’s pretty hypocritical how Orrin says how he will fight for his beliefs, and they always talk about Braveheart, Rocky, and other against all odds heroes who stood up for what they believed in.

    Yet he’s too much of a chicken shit to stand up for his beliefs in an open and public manner.

    He would never, ever cut it as a real leader.

  9. mike permalink
    April 1, 2009 3:20 am

    Rocket, Let me alter your last sentence.

    “Orrin is real at being a cult leader.”

  10. April 1, 2009 12:39 pm

    I updated the post with a screenshot from the Featured Leaders section on the Team website. No Crawfords, Haugens, Wilsons, or Smiths to be found anywhere. I guess this verifies everything for me. It won’t be long now that the tools recorded by these authors will go away from the website. Discount prices anyone?

  11. Barkin permalink
    April 2, 2009 5:01 am

    Having attened the St.Louis convention a month ago, TEAM lost a lot of members. Chuck Goestchel(sp) was no where to be seem either.


  12. April 2, 2009 9:28 am

    Barkin – Thanks for mentioning Chuck. I had forgotten to add him to the list. Was there any explanation as to why there were so few people at the St. Louis convention? Were the speakers from stage proclaiming that the business has never been better?

  13. Barkin permalink
    April 2, 2009 1:25 pm

    Nothing was said at all about about the lack of people compared to previous conventions. They mostly talked about how the “TEAM” was back and were closer than ever to 1 million.

  14. April 2, 2009 9:13 pm


    Kindly note that Chuck Goetschel was there right along with his whole team signing his new book, “Simon Says” at St Louis.

    And there were close to 20,000 people in attendance, the best numbers ever since joining MonaVie apparently.

    God Bless, Rykel
    (just back in Singapore)

  15. April 2, 2009 10:36 pm

    Rykel – How come Chuck wasn’t listed as speakers for this event (from the Team calendar pages):

    We are excited to announce in St. Louis, MO you will have the pleasure of hearing:

    Chris & Terri Brady
    George & Jill Guzzardo
    Claude & Lana Hamilton
    Bill & Jackie Lewis
    Tim & Amy Marks
    Orrin & Laurie Woodward

    Guest Speakers:
    Pastor Robert L. Dickie III
    Jeff Graham
    Darren Hardy
    Katy Holt-Larsen
    Dallin Larsen
    Dr. Alex Schauss

    Not listed here are the other people who left Team. Strange that almost all of them were listed as speakers at the previous Leadership convention in October 2008:

    We are excited to announce in Salt Lake City, Utah you will have the pleasure of hearing:

    Chris & Terri Brady
    Mark & Tami Crawford
    Chuck Goetschel
    Randy & Valorie Haugen
    Tim & Amy Marks
    John & Barbara Sims
    Lance & Tracey Smith
    Orrin & Laurie Woodward
    Pastor Robert Dickie
    Dallin Larsen
    Scott Olsen

    Coincidence? I think not. Chuck might have been there in-person, but he certainly wasn’t on the list of guest speakers. Why would that be now?

    Where did you get the 20,000 people in attendance figure? Were you there in-person?

  16. April 2, 2009 11:15 pm

    Hi Amthrax,

    Yes, I was St Louis at that time. My point is, Team had the best attendance ever, apparently. I have no idea what the numbers were prior to St Louis, but 20,000 people sure is an impressive figure, and does not sound like “lack of people compared to previous conventions”, unless past events had like 30,000-100,000 participants. Was there?

    As for Chuck Goetschel, I have said that he was there signing the books and he was there with his Team. And they sure were fired up about Team MonaVie! As for why he did not speak on stage, I do not know man.

    By the way, from your comment, George & Jill Guzzardo, Claude & Lana Hamilton and Bill & Jackie Lewis did not speak at the earlier Salt Lake City event either – but were they not high pin Team Leaders then? They were, but they did not speak. The reasons might be the same. Just bringing some perspective to the table.

    God Bless, Rykel

  17. April 3, 2009 2:41 am

    As one of the “defecting leaders’ of Team, let me clear the air.

    First, we,( Legacy Business Group International ) are grateful to have been part of team.
    They are great leaders and friends.
    We are also thankful to be partners with them long enough to escape from AmQuix.
    We all spent a good portion of our lives defending that company.
    How were we re-paid? A name change back to Amway, a Termination of our friends, and slander online.
    But no sense crying over spilled milk.
    For getting us out, Thank you Orrin, Chris, & all of Team!

    As for why half the black & blue diamond executives left team? it’s very simple… Focus.

    The leaders that left want to focus on building monavie. The one’s that stayed, want to focus on building the “system”, in hopes that it will create system income and build Monavie.
    It’s as simple as that!

    The verdict isn’t out yet, but life is much “simpler” for all of us that left.
    No more suits, ties, and meetings night after night. Tasting party’s, web-casts, and fewer paid events are the way we build.
    Gone are the $100 website registrations, $5 x 12 cd’s a month, and spending thousands of dollars flying around the planet.
    LBGI is looking at a few ( Inexpensive ) Cd’s’, mp3’s, and much of our training free online.

    The Monavie business model is much simpler than that of A/Q. It has effective products, superior management, and a great compensation plan.
    Most of our builders are making 2x – 4x what they were making with A/Q. Many with much smaller groups.
    The lack of income from A/Q made it impossible to sustain any “real” lifestyle without income from the system side. That’s always been Amway’s Achilles heal.
    But that’s not the case with Monavie. You can actually make good money.

    The leaders that left wanted a simple system focused on helping the new people achieve results quickly.
    Keep the cost’s low, and let their new people become profitable fast.
    That Isn’t necessarily the focus of Team.
    Teams “restoration” has taken it back to the same place it was with the flawed business model of A/Q in my opinion.
    $2,000 dollar tool trunks, recognition for the people who sell the most tickets / tools, and a mere mention of the Monavie product forced the organization to split.
    The leaders that left wish Team the best. But unfortunately, many of the team leaders are upset.
    It’s not mentioned publicly, but we are being accused of leaving team so that we won’t have to “do the work”, or could care less about the “Cause”, or, so we can chase tool profits by ourselves.
    That’s simply not true. If that was the case, why are we letting thousands of flip charts, game plans, and tools be downloaded for free? (
    Look at thier “Guiding principals,” they really want to get this right.
    That is why I will follow them.

    They will have an office and expenses, so there will be revenue generated. But the tools and events will be cheep, limited, and focused on helping the new people win

    As for my friends with Team, I wish you the best.


    BTW, there were 9,800 people in St Louis. Some of our team was involved in the total count.

  18. April 3, 2009 9:15 am

    Clear the air. Thank you for your detailed comments.

    Are you on the board of leaders of Legacy? If so, you would know about the transparent and open compensation tool plan (#10 in guiding principles). If not — then with respect — I must take your claims of a cheaper System with a grain of salt. Many an Amway/Quixtar System has come undone due to System excesses. I hope this is not the case, and I hope that you maintain vigilant and hold your leaders accountable should they fail to follow their own guiding principles.

  19. April 3, 2009 10:17 am

    Rykel and Clear the air:

    CTA says 9,800 people were at the St. Louis Open. Rykel states there were close to 20,000 people. Obviously, there’s a big gulf between these two figures!

  20. Joecool permalink
    April 3, 2009 10:31 am

    Why do leaders break away from their upline groups? In my observation, the onyl conclusion I can mae is the tools income. It happened in Amway and it’s probably at the root of TEAM. Why would it be different?

  21. April 3, 2009 12:21 pm

    Joecool – I wrote about this in my latest post on the Cycle of the Sith as it relates to Amway and MonaVie Motivational Organizations:

  22. April 3, 2009 6:09 pm

    Hi CTA, Amthrax & Joecool,

    First of all, it is a refreshing 8.20am here in sunny Singapore. (Have you guys visited my country yet? Please do! I would be most happy to bring you all to all the nice places – maybe we can have a “live chat” on top of the Singapore Flyer while sipping and eating great food all the way! Then blog about it. hehe) 🙂

    I also appreciate CTA for Clearing the air.. it seems like the issue is very simple – a group of leaders would like to do things the Juice way, like how other MonaVie distributros are doing it, hence the (temporary?) diversion. That is all I can read from the lines.

    As for tools, only time will tell if they will be at least 30-50% cheaper than Team tools, sustained over a period of at least 1-2 years.

    As observers know, Team tool prices did go down as promised by Team leaders after Quixtar. If the new “Juice groups” (hehe) do away with CDs of the Week etc., then obviously the cost of becoming a Juice group distributor would seemingly go down vs. Team member.

    Since the Juice groups are small groups, the Tool profits will go DOWN only when you sell tools at a Lower price AND less tools, as there is no economy of scale. In other words, I expect to see Juice group tools selling for a HIGHER price than Team tools. I stand to be corrected, though.

    What about tool profit-sharing? Would it now be all flowing into the pockets of only a very select minority, like it is in Amway and other MonaVie groups?

    However, CTA, if you would allow me to speak from the bottom of my heart, the Juice groups are going into a deeper abyss than you have ever gone before with Quixtar. *gasp!*

    If Juice is all that the Juice groups are going to “focus” on, rather than the (admittedly) more challenging work of developing leaders, people’s character, forming teams loyal to Team and mentoring/counseling, then they had better pray real hard that MonaVie management stays the same, with the same level of world-class commitment to distributors as they do now, forever. Or at least the next 50 years. 😉

    Otherwise, should MonaVie become another Quixtar – that is, with no regards to distributors (eg. renaming Quixtar to Amway without even informing Quixtar IBOs) – then all your hard-built teams will collapse like rubble to nothingness.

    But I would like to suggest that should the same aforementioned thing happen to Team, the guys would stay LOYAL to Orrin and Chris and Team would just go on to a million people nonetheless.

    If Juice Alone can change the world and stay as the king, then noni, mangosteen and gels etc. would not have become just a fraction of their former glory days today.

    As for acai, the chances of MonaVie going on to $20 billion (thanks to Juice groups) AND staying in business like Amway (thanks to TEAM!) are VERY high.

    Long after all the Juice distributors have gone on to some future weazy juice that is bound to happen, Team will still be with Dallin, rapidly expanding the MonaVie business throughout the world. (Amway and Network21/BWW/InterNET/WWDB, anyone?)

    NOTE: All the Juice distributors might not go elsewhere after all – because MonaVie is a smart company that will launch other Super products that shall keep them in. 😉

    In summary, I am glad that the Juice groups are pursuing what they think is best for them, but at the same time, I wish that the Juice groups would remain committed to Team family reunions and not burn the bridge. There is a Chinese saying, “If we are family, we can all build different businesses, but we must always remember our roots – appreciate it – and not forget the family reunions at Chinese New Year.”

    Somebody else’s experience is the best teacher. Everything rises and falls on Leadership, not juice, not compensation plan.

    As for the numbers (20,000 vs 9,800), my figures might be wrong, but I did a manual headcount of the number of rows x number of seats per row.

    I would like to say at this junction that I have great admiration and respect for all the Team Leaders who are mentioned in this thread, because they all stood up for what they believe in, what they saw as a fatal show of bad management by Quixtar.

  23. Major Dave Stoner permalink
    April 3, 2009 8:56 pm

    I heard that the number in St. Louis was less than 7,000 on Saturday. So much for going to One Million. I was told that there was only a few speakers from TEAM, the rest were scientists and doctors. I have heard a lot of people were disappointed with this Major Leadership. All I can say is good luck to those who stay with TEAM Monavie, you’re gonna need it. When you hear that the Woodward’s, Brady’s, Mark’s and Guzzardo’s flee to South America you will know the Empire has fallen.

  24. April 4, 2009 12:39 am


    chill… assuming that it was “only” 7000 (but St Louis had between 9800 [cta] to 20,000 [rykel]), then 7000 x 2 = 14000 Team.

    14000 x 2 = 28000
    x 2 = 56000
    x 2 = 112000
    x 2 = 224000
    x 2 = 448000
    x 2 = 896000
    x 2 = 1.792 million

    In short, it will take between 7 months to 7 years and Team shall reach A Million.

    p/s. If the Woodwards, the Bradys, the Marks and the Guzzados do FLY (not flee), I pray that they fly to ASIA. At that time, you will know that the Team empire has GROWN. 🙂

    Sorry, just had to get some positive vibes into Team readers today!

    God Bless, Rykel

  25. April 4, 2009 2:16 am


    I wasn’t going to comment until the “flee” word was used.

    Many of the board members have been friends of mine for a long time. So when I explain where their thinking is at, I say it with confidence.

    Randy and the rest have 100+ years of experience in the industry. They built “communities for 20+ years that held together long before Team ever showed up.
    They partnered with Team to escape A/Q, but if you think that Team did all the work building their numbers, you would have a losing argument. the numbers they brought came years before team.

    The flaw in your math above is summed up in one word – – – – – Attrition.
    ( The sand castle example is a little broad, but it makes a point )

    Yes, everyone has attrition.

    But when you go extreme???

    Like charge more than anyone else in Monavie for;

    First Night Packs
    Second Night Packs
    Leadership Packs
    Depth Packs
    Tool Trunks
    Voice Mail
    Top 50 Packs

    Then have more meetings than anyone else—

    Then have everyone fly all over the place—-

    What you have is $8,000, $10,000, $15,000 a year in expenses.

    If you are promoting a “real” opportunity every night, then you just raised the break even mark way above what the average person can ever do.

    How much did it cost to fly to St Louis? How many bottles will you have to move down your lesser leg ( at 10%) to recover those expenses?

    Can you do it in enough time to break even before the Louisville event?
    Will you now spend $100 to $300 dollars to purchase the cd’s you just flew out to St Louis to hear?

    You have to have a system, but you don’t have to break your leaders. There are such a things as a web-casts, conference calls, streaming video, etc, that cost the leaders very little, but will do the same thing.
    Unfortunately, team looks at the leaders as their customers. That’s why there is nothing free or cheap, and why the profit margins make one dizzy. ( remember, they left A/Q because of a 35% Jay Factor )
    When a Cd cost well under a dollar, you can do the math on their margins now.

    Rykel, I wish you the best, but you can be committed without losing a fortune, you can build relationships without charging for it, and if you really want to change the world, take the money you have been blessed with over the years, and spread your “wisdom” for free ( or at least cost ) so you could really get the word out.

    You can make it with team. Just be smart and do the math.
    Only go to the events that make sense. Only buy the tools you like and or that work building your business. Find the ones that move you ( and there are some ) but don’t be a mindless end user buying everything promoted from stage.

    Good luck, I really wish you the best.

  26. April 4, 2009 2:26 am


    My apologies,
    I thought the “flee” word was your reference to those that split from team, but now I see it was a comment from stoner.

    I will keep an eye on “monavie” on the move” for your name moving up the ranks.

    Again, good luck.

  27. April 4, 2009 9:46 am

    I enabled comment threading. Click the reply link next to the comment you wish to reply on. This will make it easier for everyone to follow the conversation.

  28. Joecool permalink
    April 4, 2009 10:46 pm

    I was at Costco today and saw a bottle of “Fruit A Vie”, a juice made from the acai berry. It retails for $16.89.

  29. April 5, 2009 12:07 am

    There’s also a new juice MLM coming out called Avia, starring the magical “you’ve never heard of it before” berry Maqui:

    JC – How large was the bottle of Fruit A Vie?

  30. Joecool permalink
    April 5, 2009 12:25 pm

    Amthrax, Fruit A Vie was the same size bottle as MV at about a third of the price.

  31. Joecool permalink
    April 5, 2009 5:47 pm

  32. April 6, 2009 5:57 pm

    Mystery Man, a.k.a. tex has been banned from the comments. He is not welcome on my site.

  33. Joecool permalink
    April 6, 2009 6:10 pm

    If Sam’s club can sell Fruit A Vie for $16.89, I wonder how much profit MV makes on a single bottle? This is just like Amway and their Nutrilite products. Very overpriced.

    Regarding groups splitting away. It’s all quite clear. It’s tool money. Why would you split from your “awesome upline” and “mentor”? The only logical conclusion I can make is that it is the greed for tool money.

  34. Diana permalink
    April 11, 2009 4:09 pm

    On Orrin’s own blog after STL, he stated that about 10,000 gathered for the major …way down from the close to 25,000 to 30,000 that we had @ major not too long after leaving Amquix /Quixway 🙂
    Not sure what’s happened, but think that the learning curve that Team keeps moving has a lot to do with it.

  35. Candace permalink
    April 14, 2009 8:39 am

    I watched the video of Dallin Larsen’s comments on the link you provided here:

    He never mentions anyone besides Haugens and Crawfords. What happened to the rest of the gang?

    Side note: MonaVie people should know better than to put “Larsen” and “Legacy” in the same sentence, because my brain can’t be the only one that immediately read “Dallin Larceny”.

  36. Candace permalink
    April 14, 2009 9:04 am

    Well, the meetings aren’t free:

    Looks like the small training events will set a couple back $50.00.

  37. IBsaved permalink
    December 18, 2009 8:26 am

    The reason Randy Haugan and others chose to leave Team is, simply, their egos could not handle not being part of the policy council. They thought that they should be allowed in because of past success or net worth instead of current business strength. In Team it’s all about performance. How much fruit IS on your tree, not WAS on your tree? Let’s boil it down to it’s irreducable minimum. If you are a leader, you ought to be in the lead!

  38. Mark permalink
    July 10, 2010 5:30 pm

    I don’t undersand something about it all I am new to Monavie and I wondering about these people that leaving would they not stil be making over a million dollar simply by buying they’re juice every month?? Why would some people stop to give that up? Also I finding hard to believe that cost for tools would be issue if making so much that money

  39. aurora permalink
    January 1, 2011 10:50 am

    This commenter requested that her comments be removed from this site.

  40. Will permalink
    February 24, 2011 5:32 pm

    Anybody no what Chuck Goetschel is up to these days…he left Orrin and Team along time ago, right?

  41. Speak Your Truth permalink
    February 24, 2011 7:49 pm

    I think if you google (Chuck) him you will find his website.
    I believe he know he has another venture going on too.

  42. Bryant permalink
    March 11, 2011 6:47 pm

    Just ran across this… Monavie has the MAqui and the strongest Acai in the workd …which is why the cheap stuff is so cheap…pretty simple..for simple minds….lol

  43. OWesladouche permalink
    March 12, 2011 1:51 am

    Bryant, you are special.

  44. March 30, 2011 7:35 pm


  45. Speak Your Truth permalink
    March 31, 2011 7:37 am

    Idiots? And Your are calling others haters? LOL
    Check out How your guru’s got that title. That is so laughable!
    While your at it, read the other couple thousand comments, you might learn something before you steriotype everyone here as haters.
    Oh and while your reading all the other posts put yourself in others shoes!
    Good luck with your guru’s and their sinking ship!:)

  46. Speak Your Truth permalink
    March 31, 2011 8:05 am

    BTW I forgot to mention, I am Mother Theresa, and Ghandi & St. Francis is my 1st and 2nd cousins. See we built a downline of thousands and thousands of people and those of my friends on Amthrax site and all my downline voted for me and then Wala, I am Mother Theresa, they all believe it and so do I! It is really humbling and cool,because they say all kinds of ‘nice’ things about me, then one of my followers created this website and now the world believes I’m Mother Theresa too! So Zac be careful who you call haters, you might end up looking like a fool if you don’t do your homework. I will be praying for you!

  47. March 31, 2011 8:29 am

    Enough said!!??!! I don’t think that was enough little man. All you did was show your ignorance and gullible tendencies by believing that rubbish. Taking up daddy’s defense are you?

  48. TOD permalink
    March 31, 2011 11:10 am

    #7 leadership guru? According to who? I bet if you poll 1,000 people in your local area,who are not attending a TEAM seminar, that 99% would never have heard of this so called #7 guru. I bet more people would think that you meant to say Senator Hatch from Utah.

    Also, I am not sure what is more annoying, your comments or you typing with caps lock on.

    Lastly, there is one fact that is absolutely irrefutable. More people on TEAM spend more on products and tools than they have coming in.

  49. switch permalink
    March 31, 2011 11:18 am

    ZAC says-

    Fronting a fruit juice with all kinds of false testimonies and illegal claims to pass along some “inspirational” tool scheme behind the scenes is only the beginning ZAC of your leaders’ history.

    You’re group is basing “leadership”, and “making a difference” in people’s lives around a bottle of fruit juice as this “wonder” cure for pretty much every disease possible. You might as well tell them drink 2 ounces in the morning and 2 ounces at night and you’ll have sparks flyin’ out your a$$ by midnight.

    Does this sink in whatsoever ZAC?


    snap out of it ZAC….

  50. Speak Your Truth permalink
    March 31, 2011 12:01 pm


  51. I Quit ( and glad I Did) permalink
    March 31, 2011 1:03 pm

    What if I’m not Catholic? Can I still vote? I vote for me as the Pope!

  52. I Quit (and glad I did) #2 permalink
    April 2, 2011 8:21 am

    Hey, does anyone know what happened to John and Melanie Morgan? What is being said about them? They were huge leaders in the “business”. Just wondering as no one has talked about them on here.

  53. I Quit (and glad I did) #2 permalink
    April 2, 2011 8:27 am

    OOOPS! I hit enter too fast. I was also wondering about Pat and Paula Edwards, The Peters, Larry Kirkley, The Ahnens, and the Semples? If people know what happened to them fill us in on their stories and what the “Leaders” are saying about them. Just wondering because they all were well know and most of them doing well in the “Business”.

  54. ex friend permalink
    April 5, 2011 3:58 pm

    Randy, I really don”t know how you sleep at night. You are the biggest phony in the world. All you do is take other peoples money. And tell them to go after their dream. You don’t even do meetings. I hope you get yours at the end. nothing

  55. Rob Thomas permalink
    April 6, 2011 6:35 am

    Not sure if this is the appropraite spot, but has anyone found anything useful to do with all their old CD’s?? I’m just now getting aroung to cleaning up and hate the thought of throwing it all out. Any suggestions (comical suggestions are welcome, too!)

  56. switch permalink
    April 6, 2011 8:19 am

    If you don’t know what to do with your “tools”, here’s 10 steps to follow….

    1. Gather up all your cds and pop in “LUNG BUSTERS” into a portable cd player outside in the backyard. (don’t worry, you don’t need that old black “generic looking” case it comes in.)

    2. Get yourself a gallon of gasoline out of a nearby shed. (try your neighbor first, he actually got a kick out of it when I did it. AND…., you may score a beer or two off him so that’s a plus.)

    3. Stack them high in a stack in the fire pit but also make sure there’s some space underneath so it has some good air flow.

    4. Get on the horn and start making your phone calls of the lists you made of contacts. (you know damn well you have one laying around somewhere, how many times did you write that list of 100+ people?)

    5. While inside, get yourself a bottle of the “active” and get the shot glasses ready. (make it look like you mean business and you’re a “part of something special”…you know, “jazz” it up a little.)

    6. When your company (or ex-teamers) arrives tell them to go around back where the party is.

    7. Set up a table where they can donate or drop off the “inspirational” tools, and cds. (shit, another FLASHBACK of a Tuesday night open! yuck.)

    8. Gently pour some gasoline on the pile of tools in fire pit.

    9. Strike a match from a distance and throw on pile.

    10. When pile burns down, you can find more kindling on the greeting table.

    …..Lung Busters has never sounded so sweet.

  57. Speak Your Truth permalink
    April 6, 2011 10:27 am

    Up in flames, I love it!
    I like the idea of breaking into tiny pieces with a sledge and making Disco-balls! Or tithe them to the “Cult Experts.” There is a company that I found, have to look it up again but I know they take recycled goods and make them into other things!
    I took a lot to the dump but felt horrible about clogging the earth with that garbage! What a tragic waste in so many ways.
    Too bad they weren’t edible we could feed A lot of homeless or starving children!
    webelieved~the decor, LOL

  58. Speak Your Truth permalink
    April 6, 2011 11:52 am

    I’m pretty sure Larry Kirkley still speaking.
    The Peters were screwed over royaly! I’ve heard all kinds of lies they said about them. Pretty telling on the Edwards, not sure though what happened there if anything. Pretty sure, the Semples figured out the shysters and got sick of the politics. John Morgan left for unethical & immoral reasons, that is pretty telling since everyone knew he was best friends with Orrin & George Guzzardo. Webelieved said he was suppose to of stole his downline into coupon cutting, that is histerical since a lot of those team leaders are still there!

    Just seems all these people were there and disappeared and everyone one tells you a different story. Same with the entire Dickie family. These fraudlent liars tell all kinds of lies about these people, wonder why they do that?

    Oh could it be because of Greed & Fear they will loose the last little remnants who are hanging on by a thread. They think people are stupid and haven’t figured them out! Their lies and cover-ups of All the leaders that left, there is an entire list on here and that doesn’t even include all the turbo 25, 50, and even some 100’s, who left!

  59. Rob Thomas permalink
    April 7, 2011 10:12 am

    That’s a good idea! Neat look.

  60. bogart permalink
    May 3, 2011 3:23 pm

    When you light the fire you could go around saying” this thing is on fire and my business is really exploding.” Which would finally be an honest assumption of our so called business.Up yours OW and TEAM.

  61. Speak Your Truth permalink
    May 3, 2011 3:50 pm

    Thanks bogart & weblieved~I need some humor today! LOL
    It is also like ‘you play with fire you get burnt!’
    I got some 3rd degree scars to prove it, that’s for sure!

  62. August 23, 2011 7:37 am

    Can confirm that Pat & Paula Edwards are still involved with Team, however they are no longer listed on the speaker list on the Team site. FYI….

  63. Speak Your Truth permalink
    August 23, 2011 9:12 am

    Thanks Punisher~ The Edwards has always been the one in questions.

    Amthrax could you remove the Edwards name from the list.

  64. August 23, 2011 9:15 am

    I crossed-out Edwards’ name in the original comment and added a note at the bottom.

  65. January 8, 2012 11:54 am

    In 2000 I became an IBO with Quixtar and was in Mark and Tami Crawford’s True North organization. After about 18 months, I finally came to the realization that the whole thing was a scam to sell the “system”. Anyways over 10 years latter, last night while I was sleeping, I wondered what’s happening with Mark these days. I’ve spent a couple of hours this morning laughing at all the blogs and sites about Mark Crawford. Really entertaining stuff.

  66. August 11, 2012 8:54 pm

    For the record, Larry Kirkley is doing just fine. He usually speaks once a month at a Tuesday meeting in WI (where most of my taproot is based).

    I’d also like to say that I never had anything close to financial success until being introduced to Team just over two years ago. I have learned to not only manage my finances far more responsibly, but I have had success in building my business in addition to that. I also now have a closer relationship with my Creator and Savior – Jesus Christ – than I ever have in the past. I have befriended honest and genuine people, that have encouraged me and helped me and spent time with me, when no one else would. I am having a blast, and loving my life like never before; I am actually living life “more abundantly” (John 10:10). I happen to be in better physical condition than at any other time in my life. My relationship with each member of my family is better than it ever has been (even though they still don’t understand what I am a part of), AND I will soon be beginning a family of my own! I have risen to leadership positions in my church, my current job, and am the leader of my team in a state in which I do not have a support team above me to help me build. So I am THE leader. I will be completely financially free, and job-optional by next summer, and will never have to work a job ever again.
    With all of that being said, neither I nor anyone that I have worked personally with have done anything unethically or out of greed. My personal dream, is simply to be able to spend my time with my future wife and children. I refuse to live a life where my wife and I go in opposite directions to spend the entire day with other people’s spouses, while our kids get raised and indoctrinated by the government, via the public school system. Deuteronomy 6:4-9 lays out the model for the family. It is supposed to be ME who raises my kids, and I intend to do so. There is nothing wrong, immoral, unethical, greedy, or sinful with HAVING wealth; many key characters from the Bible were EXTREMELY wealthy. The difference is made in the USE – or ABUSE – of that wealth. Am I chasing money to get things? NO! I can’t take any of it with me when I die. Would having money enough to pay the bills and be responsible with my finances AND still have time to spend time with my family, be a worthy cause for me to pursue? YES! I can invest in the lives of my children and ensure that they enter the Kingdom of God after their short time on this earth. THAT is the only thing I can take with me. The price for that: working hard, working smart, consistently, over time. I believe the result is worth the investment.
    Everyone in this country is given the freedom to choose what to do with their life, even if they choose the bondage of a job for the rest of their life. But as for me and MY house, we will serve the Lord. And LIFE/TEAM is how it will be done.
    Thank you.


  67. Speak Your Truth permalink
    August 13, 2012 8:53 am


    No doubt you are accomplishing what all do when they immerse their minds in the indoctrination of the ‘system’ and ‘upline’; you have learned the rhetoric very well. You obviously have not read the LIEf P&P’s (the contract for “your” business). I highly recommend it… I am sure you will find that what you ‘believe’ and the reality of that belief would be polar opposite and if you can’t see this than take it to an attorney and ask him what part of LIEf is “your business?”

    Let us know what your idea of “financial success” is.

    You say:” I’d also like to say that I never had anything close to financial success until being introduced to Team just over two years ago.I have learned to not only manage my finances far more responsibly, but I have had success in building my business in addition to that. ”

    Care to share what you are making that has you convinced you are a financial success with LIEf?

    Ephesians 2:8-9

    For by grace are we saved through faith and that not of ourselves, it is the gift of God — not of works, lest any man should boast.

  68. Speak Your Truth permalink
    August 13, 2012 9:25 am

    Based on Epesians 2:8-9 could you explain how you can “ensure” your children enter the Kingdom of God and how that works with Team Lief?

    Here is what you say: “Am I chasing money to get things? NO! I can’t take any of it with me when I die. Would having money enough to pay the bills and be responsible with my finances AND still have time to spend time with my family, be a worthy cause for me to pursue? YES! I can invest in the lives of my children and ensure that they enter the Kingdom of God after their short time on this earth. THAT is the only thing I can take with me. The price for that: working hard, working smart, consistently, over time. I believe the result is worth the investment.”

    Do you have a job that pays you and in return you pay your bills? Are you responsible with that income from your job and apply it to your finances? What have you learned from the Team that you never knew about “financial responsiblity” prior? How much time do you really spend with your family and go to a job and build your business? Why exactly are you building Team LIEf?

    How do you know for sure if you have “befriended honest and geniune people?” Have you read any of this site?

    What has the team done for you that put you in more ” better physical condition than at any other time in my life?”

    How can you not be “chasing money” and then building the business for money?

  69. Mike Collins permalink
    August 13, 2012 4:33 pm

    Dm: I’m glad that Life is going so well for you. If Life is truly doing all that you say it is that’s great. I do have a couple of questions for you though since you quoted a couple of scriptures.
    1. Do you know how your God feels about wealth acquired through the use of deception: Proverbs 10:2 Ill-gotten gains do not profit, but righteousness delivers from death.
    2. Do you know how your God feels about liars? Proverbs 26:28 a lying tongue hates those it hurts, and a flattering mouth works ruin.
    3. Do you know how your God feels about a system of dishonest weights and measures? Proverbs 20:10 Unequal weights and unequal measures are both alike an abomination to the LORD.

    If you take the time to answer these questions you might consider asking Orrin a few yourself. You might ask him about the profit allocation in his comp plan and why so little of it goes to the people at the bottom of the pyramid.

    You might ask him about the nature of his relationship with Pastor Dickie and why it ended so abruptly after so many years of his (Dickies’) mentoring.

    You might ask him to show you how many people are actually making a real income in this thing called Life.

    Then ask him if he has seen my Life compensation plan analysis video and if he has, if it’s accurate. (You might want to watch it yourself my brother)

    After you’ve done these things….do what your conscience dictates.

  70. Brent Hansen permalink
    August 13, 2012 9:00 pm

    dm wrote “I will be completely financially free, and job-optional by next summer, and will never have to work a job ever again.”

    Come see us next summer dm, I said the same thing over and over for 12 years. And I built it hard, 6 nights a week, no sleep, no vacation, and drove and flew hundreds of thousands of miles.

    There is a 96% chance you won’t even be able to earn enough to cover your own subscription, hope your feeling lucky.

  71. exambot permalink
    August 13, 2012 9:52 pm

    dm said
    “I refuse to live a life where my wife and I go in opposite directions to spend the entire day with other people’s spouses, while our kids get raised and indoctrinated by the government, via the public school system. ”

    You are soooo stupid. Who do you think will deliver your children and where in? Doctors leave their homes and/or their spouses and their children to go deliver your children if you ever have them. Do not disrespect other people and the whatever paths they have decided to follow in their lives. I hope you learn what you need to before you attempt to have a family. At this level of thinking your kids will be doomed into the same shallow, stupid way of thinking, not needed in this world anymore than there is already. Shallow rivers and shallow minds freeze first no less yours.

    You said “I will be completely financially free, and job-optional by next summer, and will never have to work a job ever again.”
    Obviously you have no respect for the people at your church and your job colleagues because they are in bondage for life. You provide further evidence of your shallow thinking here, you said,

    “Everyone in this country is given the freedom to choose what to do with their life, even if they choose the bondage of a job for the rest of their life.”

    Sprinkling truths on idiocy don’t make the latter any smarter. Have respect for your jaaay ohhh bheee, it certainly has been paying your bills and buys your TEAM materials does it not?

    You said “I can invest in the lives of my children and ensure that they enter the Kingdom of God after their short time on this earth.”

    Excuse me short time on this earth? What the hell are you on man? God I friggin hope smarts get to you before some children do because it just will be a sad day here, in heaven and hell, dude!

    Finally if in your life you used to be at the bottom of the barrel, no, under the barrel anything is better including LIEf or Jim Jones kool-aide. That doesn’t mean it’s the good, but just for you. The rest of us know better.

    P/S If you are such a good christian then obey your god whoever he is, he has installed authority over you and commanded you to obey it. LIEf P&P states you don’t come here and comment annony-mousely.

  72. john permalink
    August 13, 2012 10:14 pm

    The business that you are involved in and are so excited about has already seduced you by a carefully orchestrated web of deception. From the first moment you attended a function or event you were fed a stream of carefully choreographed propaganda to make you think you were in the presence of great leaders. Did you not notice that every speaker is given the assignment to praise and glorify the big leaders? Slowly and persistently you listen to all the false hype, the praise of man,and the promises that this is going to be the best opportunity for you and your future. Woven throughout the presentations you are told about how this organization is changing the country and making an impact on the world. you begin to feel you are a part of something that is bigger than anything you ever were a part of before. The leaders grow in yoiur esteem and you believe that they are the most gifted and amazing people you have ever met. You are bombarded with subtle messages to help you fall for the propaganda that is in every message, every talk, every cd, and in every video that you hear. You go to bed each night with a dream of one day having the success, the money, and the ability to be like the leaders you are blindly following. dm, it is a pity that you feel compelled to defend the people who are using you for their own personal advantage. The people sucking you into this web of deception are trained to answer every objection that some one new might ask. The tragedy is that so many people lack the skills to recognize the propaganda, deception, false analogies, exagerations, and the lies that are told on a regular basis. Many of the people leading this business are so used to the exagerations and misrepresentations that they spin on a daily basis that they are now immune to a true conscience about what they are doing. You, dm, have been douped. You have been deceived. You are caught in a very sinister web of deception. You say you have been befriended by honest and genuine people. Really? How do you know that? There are many who know the same leaders that you are so convinced are “honest and gneuine people” who will tell you from intimate experience that they are not honest or genuine people at all. If you say you are not decieved your belief in your own ability to recognise deception only proves my point that you have been deceived. No one who is deceived ever realizes it until it is too late. The end game for you dm is already decided. The longer it takes you to figure out that you have been misled the more painful it will be when the truth finally breaks through. You will spend years of your life chasing a dream that will always be illusive. What little success you may achieve can disappear in a moment. You will exhaust yourself and spend a fortune chasing a fools dream. What will haunt you the most is that when you do wake up and see the truth you will mourn, not for the money you wasted, but for the years spent on this illusion. You will despise yourself for not listening to those who could have spared you such a terrible end to your team dream. The team leaders of course love you dm. They are making a fortune on people like you. dm, you I truly pity. You are just another gullible victim. The ones I truly fear for are those who know what they are doing, who know the truth, and yet continue their deceptions and lies. Those individuals have no hope. They are jaded and already dead by the love of money. In the little make believe world that these leaders have created for themselves they are rock stars. The day will come when the truth will be known. But for you dm, I congratulate you. You are now a member of a very expensive club. For whatever ever entainment value you get from this group the price you will pay will be bitter. Read Athena Dean’s books Consumed by Sucess and All That Glitters Is Not God. Those books will wake you up to the reality of what people on this site have been saying.

  73. Former Round Table permalink
    August 14, 2012 4:50 am

    John, wow! That is a brilliant description! Thank you!

  74. Mike Collins permalink
    August 14, 2012 5:13 am

    John: ditto to what FRT said! Dude! Have you posted here before? Have I missed your previous posts? Man that’s good stuff. Better listen dm…….

  75. Speak Your Truth permalink
    August 14, 2012 6:57 am


    Amazing and complete.Thanks for sharing!

  76. August 14, 2012 4:59 pm

    Wow! Ok. I have seen the light now. Thanks everyone. I will sell out to all the anonymous people on this site that have never met me. I am going to quit my business and go back to working 12 hours a day, day in and day out, until I die. That is the best option ever offered to me. Boy, am I glad I found this site!

  77. Brent Hansen permalink
    August 14, 2012 5:33 pm

    @dm, I am far from anonymous. If you would like to correspond, or talk on the phone feel free to email me anytime.

  78. john permalink
    August 15, 2012 8:22 am

    From the response you gave those on this blog it is clear that your sarcasm and arrogance tells us that the seduction of your soul has been complete. We know what you are thinking. We were all there once too! We bought in to the same lies, deceptions and disdained any who could not see how wise we were. The difference is that many of us here did not have the benefit of someone who had experienced the true nature of Team and could warn us of the dangers and dark side of this organization. We did not know anyone who actually knew the leaders over a period of time, who saw the little man behind the curtains with a narcissistic mind who was manipulating the people of Oz. So there is not much we can do for you. Brent Hansen has thrown out a challenge to you. A wise man would take it and see what could be learned.

    For your benefit here are some suggestions for you since you threw in religion and faith in your posts. If you want a good life, a life of happiness, a life of purpose try this:

    1. Instead of complaining about going back to a job and having to work 12 hours a day why not thank God you have a job and can work 12 hours a day. Many today can’t find work and would love to be in your shoes. (By the way many of those in Team who quit their job now lost their homes, can’t find a good job like the career they left for the scam they fell for and now are wishing they had not made that mistake.)
    2. Instead of reading all the Team books and listening to all the cd’s and videos read your bible.
    3. Instead of spending all the money on Team system tools, tickets and expenses to get to events give that money to your church.
    4. Instead of praising the leaders you really don’t know go serve your pastor and encourage him.
    5. Instead of giving blind allegiance to your upline why not remember that God is your upline. Follow Him.
    6. Instead of defending your new business and learning how to handle objections to this business why not learn how to defend your faith and defend something worthy of your time and efforts.
    7. Instead of talking about how great this opportunity is with everyone why not spend that time in prayer.
    8. Instead of getting excited about the Team why not get excited about the God.
    9. Instead of hardening your heart against those who have tried to warn you why not do some research to find out if what is being said here is true.
    10. Instead of walking away from this site why not ask yourself “What made me get on here in the first place?”
    11. Instead of contacting people for your business why not contact people for the Lord?
    12. Instead of showing 15 plans a month why not witness tell 15 people about your faith?

    dm, unless you are a Team leader pretending to be a new guy just on here to bash Team opponents maybe your gut instincts are trying to say something to you.

    Finally, dm, ask yourself, “if these anonymous bloggers here are so cowardly and evil as the Team leaders portray them on their blogs why not ask those same top leaders why they ran many anonymous blogs against Amway, hid evidence during the lawsuit they lost, and lied under oath?” The champions of character look pretty hypocritical when scrutinized by the same standards they hold others to. But dm, I know you know it all. These warnings mean little to you now that you found the wizard of Oz who promises you such a great future. Good luck. You will need it.

  79. Brent Hansen permalink
    August 15, 2012 9:16 am

    Amazing advice John, some I should take myself. Thank you!

  80. MustHaveBeenTerribleMother permalink
    August 15, 2012 9:30 am

    @John: wow, excellent, sane responses. Wish I could have you talk to my kid—-he’s only been in LIFE a month and has been told this site is nothing but BS….and told me I, his disabled 62 yr old mother who’s been giving him money and auto: stupid, ignorant, non-visionary, middle-class educated (never mind my grades were good enough for Harvard if I’d had the money)..

    My son sounds liike “dm”….only my son is still in the process of forking out money, not earning a red cent. What “dm” does not realize or refuses to read: some right near the top got totally screwed when, it looks like, they got too successful and too much of the pie or into a tiff, too. That favoritism was shown to extremes while trying to crowd out those that had given years of their lives to so many of Woody’s schemes.

    Hey, has it dawned on anyone yet that this is a La Familia Mafioso type of business set-up by people even earlier than Lucky Luciano? That Woodward is the “don”, the others his henchmen? Problem is, after reading about the travesties of the Peters and Morgans, it doesn’t sound as if he’s a very good “don”.

  81. freedomhaha permalink
    August 15, 2012 9:52 am

    Really impressed by the top level people that post here for freedom. To echo the statements of others I am especially impressed by Johns posts. I have been out of the cult for about a year, but I still need to follow the advice that you gave. It is clear to me that you a strong man of God, and a REAL leader. I know that your posts on here will help countless people. God bless.

  82. Mike Collins permalink
    August 15, 2012 10:57 am

    @ John: isn’t the amount of clarity you experience amazing once the paradigm shift happens? Thanks for your post. Godly wisdom to apply to an un-godly system.

  83. Vogel permalink
    August 15, 2012 7:32 pm

    Wise words John. Thanks.

  84. August 17, 2012 12:49 am

    You know… I find it quite interesting how, based on two simple posts, folks think that they know who I am. Perhaps, they think they know “my type.” In reality, No one here knows anything about my personal life (outside of the tiny bit I have offered), my upbringing, my education, my current vocation, and especially my spiritual life. Anyone can demonize me by lumping me in with the “wizard of oz” as he is referred to. But the fact remains, that no one truly knows who I am. It is going to stay that way. I do not need to justify myself to people who want another person to condemn for their own “bad experience” with network marketing. I have never done anything to anyone on this site, so I see no need to be pounced on by anyone, especially when my posts have been peaceful. I have nothing against anyone here, I am not bitter, and my feelings are not hurt; I am not that sensitive and am not that easily dissuaded either. Besides, 60% of all marriages in the U.S, end in divorce. Should I steer clear of that scam too? Maybe.
    The bottom line is that I am going to do what my Creator put me on this planet to do. I do not have to justify that, or give testimony or defense to people who don’t even know me, and who don’t truly have my or my family’s best interest at heart. I am not saying anything negative towards anyone here. But I have made my decision, and my goals will be achieved regardless of what anyone says to me here. At the end of the day, it is I – and only I – who will stand before GOD to give account for how I have lived MY life. I will not squander MY life. I am going to make a difference in people’s lives.
    Just a side note: I have worked in children’s and youth ministry for over 14 years, am currently a youth minister, and am an author of books on Christian living for youth and young adults. Also, I am NOT published under the initials “dm,” and the choice of ‘anonymity’ IS mine. Personally, I am as much in the cross-hairs of those on this thread as I ever want to be. Some of you are relentless in your criticisms, and I am actually quite impressed (as former captain of debate team in high school). It makes me wonder if the energy put into sites like these might be applicable in accomplishing something great (which I know is not limited to network marketing).
    I am not on here trying to persuade anyone to “my” way of thinking, nor am I here to be persuaded by anyone here. I simply came across this site (ironically by a ‘friend’ trying to get me to quit my business), and I just wanted to see the perspective of the “other side” (since I used to be a debater). But I do hope and pray that those on this thread are doing something good and honorable with their lives, and making a difference for the next generation. THAT is what I am all about. I have found a way to do that, and I hope everyone has found a way also, even though we may disagree on the fundamentals of this industry, or some of those utilizing it.
    Thank you.
    Signing off,

  85. Mike Collins permalink
    August 17, 2012 5:42 am

    dm: Go get ’em tiger. And God give those poor folks in your church (whom your sure to try to get involved in this travesty called Lief) the wisdom to RUN AWAY!

  86. I QUIT (and glad I did) permalink
    August 17, 2012 6:52 am

    DM- Your last post begs the overall question, why even make any comments at all? You’ve given yourself no reason to be here. I think DM is for “disoriented member”.

  87. August 17, 2012 7:37 am

    DM Apology accepted!

    You cut your own throat with a sharp tongue preaching hollow wisdom to people you don’t know either; your own fault and naturally you got pushed back.

    There was no more pleasure in your company @August 11, 2012 8:54 pm than in a wet dog’s. FYI we thrive on healthy debates and are unshy if you disagree respectfully.

  88. glad i got a LIFE. pun intended permalink
    March 2, 2013 10:27 pm

    find a better hobby then trashing networkers. Is it really that fun to cry online about how you were scammed? I spend about 100 bucks a month of stuff. I chose to. i CHOSE, CHOSE CHOSE to. SO did you. And i love the stuff. It makes me so entertained i listen toa 6 dollar cd over and over and over and learn alot. I used to spend 130 bucks on cable. But somehow watching the saparonos and soft core porn is ok at 150 bucks a month. But buying 100 bucks to get a seminar, a book and eight cds a month is robbery!!! and orrin makes money off a product he personally made and distributed!!! this is horrible. It’s like you retarded. Bill gates makes cds right, Nine inch nails makes cds. It cost money to goto a concert right? and books are sold at barnes and noble right. I live in a america. I have a freedom to buy whatever. ANd i don’t buy the cds so i can become rich. i buy them casue i actually like them. Maybe some of you bought them just to make money. and so there fore you had selfish desires and then showed a plan not caring about helping anyone and got alot of no’s and failed and blamed orrin. Awesome awesome. seriously why do you guys care so much. I know you dont want to help us you just want to bitch. Life is hard. Learn from it and grow, dont quit and make a crybaby website. Your what’s wrong with this country. Lazy f**king cry babies. TAKE SOME RESPONSIBILTY FOR THE STUFF YOU DO AND STOP BLAMING EVERYONE ELSE. YOU SUCK AT NETWORKING> YOU COULD GOT BETTER BUT YOU QUIT. THAT THE STORY, YOU SCAMMED YOU SELF YOU BLIND ASSES> YOU INVESTED THOUSANDS AND QUIT BEFORE YOU GOT THE RETURN> LIKW A FAT GUY WHO GAVE UP ON WORKING OUT AFTER SIX WEEKS CASUE HE WASN”T TWENTY POUNDS LIGHTER.

  89. glad i got a LIFE. pun intended permalink
    March 2, 2013 10:34 pm

    oh and BOb dickie left cause orrin fired his son for not doing a good job like rob halstram. And also cause pastor dickie was not humble. Every talk i ever heard dickie give was about how awesome he was. Like how he saved a kid drowning, or how great he made his kid run hills or how he would have started a roit and won against two drunk irish men. plus i feel asleep alot from the long long drawn out story of his awesomeness that never changed in voice inflection. ANd the emeralds that all left were the sit back and manage type. Trust me i had a whole upline of slow moving people who all left. But Mark Manatello stayed hmm but his family members who werent as hardcore left. strange. and by the way CLaude hamilton stuck in cause he is flipping sweet!! i love him

  90. Mike Collins permalink
    March 3, 2013 7:26 am

    LIFE…..”saving America one recruit at a time” personally, I feel so much better knowing that Orrin Woodward is reaching people like this. LIFE is the perfect “business” for them and boy are they perfect for LIFE!

  91. Brent Hansen permalink
    March 3, 2013 10:22 am

    Another literary giant comes on board. After that display, it is no wonder why the Life Policies and Procedures prohibit them from responding to critics.

  92. MemoryLame permalink
    March 3, 2013 1:26 pm

    Glad I got a Life,

    I’m thankful every time a guy/girl like you posts here. You illustrate better than any of us ex-Orrin followers ever could, just how un-Christian and un-relatable people become the more deeply they buy into this system. I sincerely hope that you achieve Policy Council as soon as possible. I believe you could accelerate the rot from within.

  93. MemoryLame permalink
    March 3, 2013 3:21 pm


    Your posts are some of the best I have read for reasoning with any sane person, especially a believer. I wish someone had the guts to ask me or my husband those questions before we became so involved in this. On another post, I mentioned that I read once in a book called The Pursuit of God by A.W. Tozer that for believers our trouble with idolism is often in the “God and…” statements we fall into. When we begin to think we need God AND Team/LIFE or whatever we put in that blank, we are playing a dangerous game.

    DM, you should be ashamed that you would tout your position as a Christian Youth Leader and yet not have the courage to deliberate and answer John’s questions honestly. James warned that not many of us should be called teachers because we would be held to a stricter judgement. You ought to consider this, brother, before you open your mouth in defense of deception.

    These guys are no different than Simon the sorcerer in The Book of Acts, who saw the presence of the Holy Spirit at work in the disciples and saw an opportunity to make money from it. That’s the scenario playing out with this whole “business”. These leaders make their living convincing others that true transformation begins with a system of bought and sold information. That alone should cause an uneasiness in your spirit, but there are all kinds of other evil that result from this false foundation.

    Don’t take any advice from us here, however. No one here is looking for credit or some “edification” or “praise of men” from you. Just read the Bible and only the Bible for a little while and then seek God alone. Repentance of my involvement with this group is one of the best blessings that God ever led me through.

  94. noteam permalink
    March 3, 2013 7:10 pm

    Memory Lane – Excellent post and great analogy regarding Simon the scorerer. That is exactly what Team/Life/Life Training/Orrin Woodward does. They promote false Christianity and prey on Christians. Then drop quotes of scripture into conversation to falsely lead people to believe they are the answer to their problems.

    Yet the whole time, they are ruining marraiges, destroying families, bankrupting families and worse – leading many people astray from Christ. One day they will all have to answer for this corruption of The Word.

  95. March 3, 2013 11:29 pm

    About drive-by “glad i got a LIFE”

    Every time I see an adherent mouth that big it has a hook in it, an MLM charlatan hook. Seems to me this LIFE TRAINING greenhorn ain’t through climbing fool’s hill yet.

  96. Melanie Morgan permalink
    March 5, 2013 2:54 pm

    Is “glad i got a LIFE. pun intended”… the “nice & polite” guys, they speak of? Hate to see what “not-nice & impolite” guy would sat.. haha…. but these “nice & polite” people, continue to drive-by and only comment a couple of times because they are just too “nice & polite”, products of the system that are to nice & polite to stick around and talk to ” liars, quitters, haters, naysayers” etc?.. Or is it they have zero courage (according to the guru’s who are nameless, faceless, cowards) to come back and address the real issues?

    While others might not be as vulgar as Mr. Nice & Polite.., there have been the majority of them have the same tone and attitude, and anyone could read QRUSH to see some anonymous vulgarity…but the tone of “glad i got a LIFE.pun intended” is most certainly common of those “nice & polite” team, lifers who drive by throw their sticks and stone and then run. I guess that principle of you are like the ones you run with; could pertain to all? Principles do apply to everyone.

    And so then the spinsters continue to spin for their agenda and to try and control the outcome of others thoughts, be know- it- all’s, never do anything but good & pure, and will continue to ignore this as if it is not the common attitude of those drive-by’s but one only has to read them… the comments of those “nice & polite” team lifers…who continue to show up and not return.

    If this is any indication of who they are targeting….they ought be careful.


  1. Attitude is an April Fool’s Joke « Amthrax
  2. Orrin Woodward’s Priceless New Book and Tweets « Amthrax
  3. Humor: Orrin Woodward on Randy and Val Haugen « Amthrax
  4. Inspire or Expire? « AMTHRAX
  5. More Ex-TEAM Members Commenting About Their TEAM/Woodward Experiences « AMTHRAX
  6. Coercion Through Edification « AMTHRAX
  7. How To Earn Tool Income and Become a Director on Orrin Woodward’s TEAM « AMTHRAX
  8. That’s How You Bring Together One Million People! « AMTHRAX
  9. You Can’t Go to a Million By Going Backwards – August 2007 to 2011 Meeting Location Analysis « AMTHRAX
  10. Orrin Woodward’s Five Principles for TEAM LIFE « AMTHRAX
  11. Orrin Woodward (circa 2007-2009) versus Orrin Woodward (circa 2011) on TEAM Success « AMTHRAX
  12. How Many TEAM Leaders Set Sail On MonaVie’s Cruise For Gold Promotion? « AMTHRAX

Leave a Reply. Because your thoughtful opinions are valued, you are encouraged to add a comment to this discussion. Don't be offended if your comments are edited for clarity or to keep out questionable matters. Off-topic and inflammatory comments may be deleted. Comments on this website are the sole responsibility of their writers. The accuracy, completeness, veracity, honesty, exactitude, factuality and politeness of comments are not guaranteed.

Fill in your details below or click an icon to log in: Logo

You are commenting using your account. Log Out /  Change )

Google photo

You are commenting using your Google account. Log Out /  Change )

Twitter picture

You are commenting using your Twitter account. Log Out /  Change )

Facebook photo

You are commenting using your Facebook account. Log Out /  Change )

Connecting to %s

%d bloggers like this: