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Orrin on Intelligent Debating

March 15, 2010

This post was originally published on March 15, 2010. It’s still relevant today, so I’m sticking it to the top of this site to spur discussion.

In today’s blog post, Orrin bemoans the lack of intelligent debating on both sides of the spectrum in the documentary, Expelled. The actual film aside, I found this quote by the Supreme TEAM Leader to be worth of my own blog post:

I don’t care which side of the political, religious, economic or other spectrum, the key is that you consider the facts honestly. To reject the facts without hearing them can only be done to your own detriment. As a leader, I actively seek opinions counter to my own, weighing the pros and cons of each thought, making decisions with my eyes wide open to each conflicting opinion.

Question for Orrin: How can you have an honest political discussion when half of your posts on your site are about the United States becoming a Socialist or Fascist country? You’re guilty of the same sin — demonizing of the opposing party — that you claim to be steadfastly against.

While you say you seek opinions counter to your own, you rarely posts such dissenting comments on your leadership blog. Why is that?

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43 Comments leave one →
  1. Joecool permalink
    March 15, 2010 10:57 am

    Do as I say, not as I do.

  2. March 15, 2010 2:13 pm

    What a Goddamn hypocrite.

    There’s been DOZENS o dissenting opinions on his blog that were never published.

    He’s so full of himself it makes me sick.

    Again, I’d like to fight him. He’s such a wuss.

  3. March 15, 2010 2:39 pm

    Even though I strongly disagree with Woodward, I’m not going to go all Tex on him by challenging him to speak to me, comment on my blog, nor call some conference number. Freedom by his own definition allows me to be critical of his opinions and actions, which is enough for me at the moment.

  4. Joecool permalink
    March 15, 2010 5:29 pm

    What’s amazing is how loyal the MV-bots are to this clown. He probably swore that Amway was the greatest thing at one time. Why would they blindly follow him and pay for training in a business he didn’t build?

  5. Burned Out with Mona Vie permalink
    March 16, 2010 12:34 am

    Never ceases to amaze me what levels of hype these folks will go to to sell grossly over priced fruit juice of arguable benefit to the uninformed masses, at least with Amway nobody really argued that the products pretty much worked most of the time thought still pricey. Actually I still use SA8 and LOC myself, I just buy it at the lowest price I can find on e-bay now.

  6. March 17, 2010 11:47 am

    Critics – What would it take for these distributors to stop following TEAM and Woodward? A scandal? A personal realization that it’s not working and MV/TEAM is not the vehicle to help them achieve their goals?

  7. Joecool permalink
    March 17, 2010 12:35 pm

    Amthrax, it is sad, but TEAM is not illegal. It’s just a bad business opportunity with a leader who wants to make his fortune from his downline’s pockets. For whatever reason, they “choose” to be loyal to him despite the lack of success. It’s just like Amway.

  8. March 17, 2010 4:30 pm

    What would it take? Exposure. Real exposure about the success rates of all those winners in TEAM.

    Not that it would ever be available to the public.

  9. Jim Scimpleton permalink
    March 18, 2010 8:37 pm

    I quit MonaVie Team within the last year and what is funny to me is that so called big leaders get up and quit all the time or vanish from stage yet the masses do not question this or wonder where they went. For example, there are a number of Triple 100s within Team over the past few years that have either quit, moved on to other businesses or are still with Team…but they had to go back and get a job again because they were taking a beating in their business. Why else would you leave or go back to work if the money was so good at that level? Guess what? That is because the money isn’t there and their businesses are falling apart with MonaVie and Team. Bad business period. People need to think for themselves for a change and stop drinking the juice! AND I mean that in more ways than one. They would save themselves a crap load of money, stress, time and energy that they can put into something that will actually add value to their families lives (a real business, spending quality time with your family etc. vs. saving up and using their vacation money to go to a major where they will get fired up to spend more money on tools that will continue to sink their ship!!

  10. March 18, 2010 9:14 pm

    Jim: Thank you for your comment. I hope that you will continue to contribute your knowledge, experience and stories in being a part of TEAM and MonaVie on this site. I’ve seen references to Triple 100 or Turbo 25 before; these don’t seem to be MonaVie-specific levels but TEAM-specific levels? Can you elaborate on what qualifications are necessary to achieve Triple 100 or Turbo 25 status?

    Does anyone ask publicly what happened to some of these leaders? Or is this type of honest and open questioning frowned upon?

    Finally, what happened in your mind to make the decision to leave the business and TEAM? Was it a gradual realization or something sudden that switched on?

  11. March 19, 2010 5:43 am

    I have to agree with Jim completely. We left also last year and have never been happier. Much less stress. Also we know our sponsor who is still recognized as a Gold and doing open meeting have 97 people on their leesor leg with one person on autoship with 200 points and no active personals in that leg….which means they aren’t making any money…..but the are still put on stage as leaders…..makes you wonder how many others are not making money. oh i should mention that they have almost 700 people with only 12% on autoship.

    Oh, turbo 25 means you have either 25 tickets on each side of your binary for any given month or Turbo 25 system means you have 25 people on system on each side.

    Just my 2 cents
    Dwayne

  12. March 19, 2010 8:09 am

    How about the higher pin levels that are recognized every week/month on MonaVie’s web site? Do they continue to be recognized even if they fall out of qualification by MonaVie? Or do they disappear from the Rank Advancement and Field Leaders pages? I’m curious to see if those pages are more accurate than what’s displayed on stage.

    Thanks for description of Turbo 25. As a System goal, it ensures a certain amount of financial benefit to the upline leaders. The number of people “plugged in” is the true measuring stick for the health of a System-focused business. Does Turbo 25 also mean that those 25 people on each side are on auto-ship?

  13. Burned Out with Mona Vie permalink
    March 19, 2010 8:15 am

    I was a Bronze and hailed in the elite less than 5% who were practically getting ready to retire, with one guy on auto ship when I climbed out of the train wreck.

  14. March 19, 2010 8:57 am

    From the team I was part of I cannot find a couple of my upline rubys that were qualified last year.

    To be recognized as a Turbo 25 you would have to be on autoship, probably Step 250 (I think that’s what they call it now)

    So out of 647 people, 75 are on autoship….less than 12%….and it is hard to say how many those are actually involved. Also out of that 647 there is only 1 qualified Gold and one Bronze.

    Glad we left when we did.

    Dwayne

  15. Burned Out with Mona Vie permalink
    March 19, 2010 2:46 pm

    Using Mona Vie math that would be 37.5 folks on each leg (wonder what a half a person looks like) still not enough to maintain a “Solid Star 1000” at 10 cases per week on the lesser leg, that would $100 a week ASSUMING they are balanced which is most likely not the case. In other words the Gold is probably not making back the cost of his 1 case auto ship and the Bronze may be making Star 500 income ($50) once every few months.

  16. March 16, 2011 9:33 pm

    People are brainwashed and hooked on the false hope that Orrin is dealing. Already, there have been a HUGE number of leaders leaving Team and still people don’t question why and only view them as negative losers. They will have to experience every ounce of blood being bled out of them before they will wake up and realize that they just got ravaged for years on end.

    Another comment in this post that cracks me up is the fact that Orrin says he seeks advice from others on his decisions. That is a flat out LIE. The guy is a EGO-MANIAC and can’t stand anyone telling him what to do.

  17. TOD permalink
    April 2, 2011 6:07 am

    Jim Scimpleton’s comments sum it up perfectly.

  18. TOD permalink
    April 3, 2011 5:13 am

    Can anyone tell me what the most recent Team book of the month was and the price? Also, can anyone tell me the Team price for the top 5 books? Thanks, I am doing some research.

  19. TOD permalink
    April 3, 2011 5:16 am

    Also, what is the price of CD’s now and how many per week? When I was in, it was Team, PPS, and SOL with an ERM once per month. Do they still have ERM now that Pastor is no longer with them? Also, are local seminars still $25? How often are Men’s leadership and do they really do Team-cast meetings? I was hoping that was just a joke.

  20. Speak Your Truth permalink
    April 3, 2011 11:25 am

    TOD
    I think you could get some pricing from the Team website. I could give you the Top 5 possibly from the back of book. You know the retail prize the one we paid!
    Also the team-cast, is a joke even though that is the real deal to them and they are certainly implimenting it. LOL
    It still makes me laugh!

  21. Speak Your Truth permalink
    April 3, 2011 1:58 pm

    @Dwayne
    Glad you are free and they certainly have “LOWERED THE BAR” on the qualifications for the speakers!

    @Jim
    I have same question as Amthrax.
    What have they told you about those Big Leaders that left?
    Thanks for sharing, glad you are free too!

  22. April 4, 2011 9:13 am

    Hi guys, Just one thought with deference to the Team-cast… I remember that some time ago, an anti-TEAM/MonaVie/Amway kingpin said that it is a scam for TEAM to not use the internet and other recent technologies. Now that We have the guys doing TEAM-Cast, it is said to be a joke. Is it not unfair then to TEAM? At least, I am sure some of you who are not drinking the “Anti-” kool-aid and is trying to highlight the deficiencies of the Systems by the evidence present, will at least GIVE CREDIT TO TEAM WHERE CREDIT IS DUE. I hope that makes sense! Regards, Rykel

  23. April 4, 2011 11:57 am

    Rykel – Dude, TEAM is charging to attend a TEAM Cast in someone’s home. It should be free. Even MonaVie streams its major conferences for free.

  24. aurora permalink
    April 4, 2011 12:58 pm

    Crikey, Rykie;

    Man up, already, and admit amway/quixtar/wwdb/bww/team suck. Charge someone ten bucks to sit in there home and have to pay attention?? Seriously?

    If I’m gonna pay, it had better be entertaining. amway/quixtar/wwdb/bww/team tape-speak blowhards are nothing but windy narcisists.

  25. Speak Your Truth permalink
    April 4, 2011 1:10 pm

    That is exactly what we are doing, GIVING THEM THE CREDIT WHERE THE CREDIT IS DUE! Duh~ read the posts!

  26. TOD permalink
    April 4, 2011 3:02 pm

    No credit, sorry. You cannot charge people $10 to sit in someone’s living room.

    FAIL.

  27. April 4, 2011 6:16 pm

    First off, Rykel, it does not make any sense what you’re saying, and second of all, well, as Amthrax said, that TEAM is charging for the web-casts. Web-casts are fine, I think they’re convenient. But WHY does the charge have to be s much? Can you answer that one? I’ve not heard of any other company that charges for a bloody webcast. In fact, I sat in another mlm company’s webcast a few times. Guess how much I was charged??? $0.00 even. And yes I’m a customer now. I bet if I go back to listen to their webcasts again, they’d still cost me a grand total of $0.00.

  28. April 4, 2011 6:17 pm

    only the brainwashed……………………

  29. Speak Your Truth permalink
    April 4, 2011 6:41 pm

    I can’t believe ole Ryky doesn’t see how much time we’ve invested in giving them the credit for all they have done, geez still unappreciated, nothin makes him happy! LOL

  30. switch permalink
    April 5, 2011 6:20 am

    I’m affraid you’re lost Rykel. It’s quite obvious through your last ditch efforts that you’re sifting through these threads and seeing if you can squeeze a point in. But on the other hand, you haven’t once tried to tackle a problem we’ve seen over and over again while on team. Not just from one person here but from EVERYONE! Ignoring the problems at hand only puts more fuel on the bonfire and is going to raise more questions and speculation for the new people looking at “your biz”.

    Your whole statement and post is another prime example of how teamers manipulate the readers and turn this discussion into a team direction/perspective. It’s not going to work… especially now that you’ve proven to us that jumping from thread to thread is what you’re doing here, hoping for that last second miracle.

    I can’t even imagine charging my neighbor to come sit in my livingroom to listen to some info that just may supposedly make him some “team victory”.

    I’ve read anywhere from spending 10’s of thousands to $160,000 on these team tools all to have a big slap in your face when they change the rules on you. Are you ready for that down the road or have you already witnessed it yourself??? I can tell you one thing, even the new people can admit to the rules CHANGING literally by the week.

    If you can take the blinders off, we’re trying to help you here.

  31. I Quit ( and glad I Did) permalink
    April 5, 2011 7:36 am

    Hey all you big Team Diamonds, heres a point to intelligently debate:
    For years I was always told to “counsel upline”. It is part of the “pattern” right guys? Anyway, to be more specific you are to only counsel with your MOVIN’ON upline. That was the verbage I constantly heard.
    So my question to you Teamers is this, Which of the various diamond types in your upline has changed pin or shall we say “moved on” since the shift from Q to MV?
    How about in the last year?
    According to their own gospel teachings are not none of them “qualified” to counsel anyone?
    Discuss.

  32. Speak Your Truth permalink
    April 5, 2011 11:04 am

    Switch & IQ
    Way to lay it out there but I am sure it way fall on deaf ears, and be completely avoided. Gutless Cowards? Their silence confirms all what we know to be true.
    I have no regrets of speaking out and hope it helps others ‘overcome their fear’ and do the same. It is more freeing than I imagined and by not speaking out and ignoring the truth, just condones what they have done.
    A hero of mine is; Erin Brockovich and here is what is said about her character:
    Erin Brockovich is a true American hero who’s icon status and “stick-to-it-iveness” only fuels her determination to expose injustice and lend her voice to those who do not have one.

    She is a modern-day “David” who loves a good brawl with today’s “Goliaths”.

    She thrives on being the voice for those who don’t know how to yell.

    She is a rebel. She is a fighter. She is a mother. She is a woman. She is you and me.
    Erin hasn’t been resting on her laurels… she continues to fight hard and win big!

    Erin then dominated the world of publishing with her New York Times Business best-seller, “Take It From Me. Life’s A Struggle, But You Can Win”.

    What amazing heroism, to stand for others who can’t stand for themselves!
    I love the movie, she states it was 98% accurate, but the thing I love about her the most is her Courage and Heart!

    Here’s her own words, although there isn’t a movie, I definetly feel my heart speaks the same language as hers.~

    The movie had its positive and its negative effects on my life. I didn’t aspire for this to happen. All I was doing was what was in my heart to do and that was to extend my hand of friendship, understanding and compassion towards another. Had my intentions been anything other than pure, this case, this movie and my life, as it is today would not exist.

    She is Amazing!

  33. April 5, 2011 12:02 pm

    Oh, and Rykel, one more question, I forgot to ask this yesterday, WHO KEEPS THE $10 FEES FROM THOSE WEBCAST MEETINGS????

  34. I Quit ( and glad I Did) permalink
    April 5, 2011 1:09 pm

    Orrin! Chris! George! Tim! Bill! Yo! Where you guys at? I can’t hear you!

  35. I Quit ( and glad I Did) permalink
    April 5, 2011 1:10 pm

    They must be out showin’ the plan. I’m sure we’ll hear from them later. Stay tuned folks.

  36. TOD permalink
    April 5, 2011 2:03 pm

    IQ-
    You know they do not have to show plans anymore. It is a residual, ongoing…blah, blah, blah.

    They do it because they love their teams, they do it because they feel like they are just getting good at it…or… maybe their cupboards are just a little bare after the whole Amway dust up.

  37. TOD permalink
    April 5, 2011 4:36 pm

    Anyone notice that the exact same speakers are featured on the Team website? How long has it been the same people? 1 year? 2 years? How in the world does that NOT raise a red flag for people in Team?

    Also, did anyone else notice that there is a local seminar AND a leadership function this month? Really? Both are necessary? Time to wake up Team-sters.

  38. Speak Your Truth permalink
    April 5, 2011 5:45 pm

    Yes ~Remember when they did this before 2 the seminar & major, then they changed it again. PC must be hurting for cash, team numbers are flying backwards Hmm….

  39. Speak Your Truth permalink
    April 5, 2011 5:46 pm

    It’s Tuesday!

  40. Speak Your Truth permalink
    April 5, 2011 7:40 pm

    Ever notice it is the same 5 diamonds for eons since what 1999 Quixtar/Amway where their teams actually came from. Wonder why they don’t share that hmm…. but I bet they still sell the cd ‘The Freshman Caught Me’ & Baseball Cards & the U.S. Ski Team’ with a new label of course! LOL Do you recall the mention of Amway in that one, didn’t think so, but it is the BEST BUSINESS BAR-NONE 🙂 LOL Well there’s 6 but can’t really call Claude a team diamond, he was never in that line of sponsorship. Another thing is real curious that I know others have mentioned on here is What is their REAL pin levels? You know not ‘just the flash in the pan’ pin but the Truth of what they are qualifing week after week! Do you know if they share that truth?

  41. I Quit ( and glad I Did) permalink
    April 6, 2011 6:12 am

    You will all note that not only have we not heard from the leaders of Team but also Rykel is silent.
    What, no snappy comeback of Teamspeak to rebut another obvious discrepency Rykel?

  42. webelieved permalink
    April 6, 2011 10:04 am

    Wow more money to make for the TEAM PC and company. Charge them double and brainwash them some more, two weekends wasted out of the month………

  43. April 6, 2011 10:23 am

    I wonder if Rykel is a diamond…

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