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Keeping Score: If You Don’t Listen to Me, Listen to Orrin Woodward [updated]

April 2, 2010

Update 2012-01-05: Orrin Woodward has a new video in which he reiterates the importance of keeping score. Finally, something that the both of us can agree on. With the launch of LIFE and the minimization of MonaVie within TEAM, it’s time to revisit this post written back in April, 2010.

I’ve held this belief that critics and supporters of MLMs are like two sides of the same coin. After reading Lead People & Manage Numbers from Orrin Woodward, I’m convinced of this even more. Orrin explains his philosophy:

I can sum this up by saying Leaders must lead themselves, lead others, and then manage the numbers. After leading yourself, the next best move is to expect others to lead themselves and teach them how to keep score. In order to manage the numbers, you must start tracking the numbers and learning to keep score to identify if you are winning or losing. Some people don’t want to keep score because they feel it would be negative, but nothing is more liberating than knowing the scoreboard so you can start the PDCA – Plan, Do, Check, Adjust process.

Supporters of MLMs will say that their opportunity is the best thing out there and the only way to reach your financial dreams. Saving, clipping coupons and working in a job won’t get you there, but MonaVie, Xango, Amway, Evolv Health, Herbalife, or Xowii will! Critics of MLMs will counter by pointing out the high attrition rates and the low percentages of people who actually make a profit in these ventures. Both groups “want” the common distributor to succeed, but they differ in the actual means to success.

This is why I found it fascinating that Orrin would write a post where he implores people to keep score, which includes tracking such things as:

  • Profit margin
  • New growth
  • Lost customers
  • Profit per employee
  • Profit per employee cost
  • Total revenue
  • Customer complaints

When viewed through the MLM prism, most distributors will not see a very happy picture in front of them. The majority of distributors are not making much profit after taking into account all of the expenses “required” for building their MLM businesses. Things like cookie-cutter web sites, voicemail, books, CDs, hotel reservations, gas, airfare and function tickets all add up to reduce or eliminate any profit.

Keeping score is exactly what critics have been asking of distributors since the day the first anti-MLM web site was set up. Keep track of your expenses, your profits and losses and let the numbers determine your actions. Orrin and other MLM leaders will often use the line, “The definition of being insane is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting something different.” Distributors really should heed this advice when keeping score. If you’re not making any money or showing financial progress, should you continue to do what you’re doing with TEAM and MonaVie?

Now, I’m not talking about personal development here; you can get that for free just by visiting your local library. Want to get association? There are far easier and more affordable ways to get this than by paying $5-10/week or $500 every few months for the privilege of getting pumped up by your TEAM leaders. Don’t think for a second that there aren’t smart, ambitious and wonderful people beyond those in TEAM. I’m talking here about your financial development; after all, that IS why you got into the business in the first place, isn’t it?

Listen to your Supreme TEAM Leader when he tells you to keep score. If it’s 51-0 — and not in your favor — maybe you should consider leaving TEAM and MonaVie. Now, that would be the decision of a leader, not a follower. Orrin won’t be happy, but he — if he listens to his own advice — should be proud of you. Bonus points if you tell that to him in person!

32 Comments leave one →
  1. April 2, 2010 8:47 am


    I hope what you say is how it translates into the Monavie/Amway mind.

    I’m sure you’d see Orrin stickhandle then!

  2. April 2, 2010 6:18 pm

    I found this post on the web where someone decided to quit MonaVie/TEAM because of mounting debt and no results building the business:

  3. April 13, 2010 6:47 pm

    Very interesting post. I think people that criticize MLM have not been taught how to market their business the correct way. Most people end up pushing their business like an obnoxious “pyramid” guy. Learn marketing and you can be successful anywhere!

  4. January 5, 2012 10:12 am

    @XOwii Lauch

    You can learn all the marketing and then be all you can be or the best marketer ever, but if you do that and are participating in a

    system (MLMs) designed to fail 99%+ of it’s participants all your

    marketing is just bull shizzle, isn’t it? Unless of course you

    convert that marketing into, and/or integrate it with “lying, manipulating, being phony and persistent. Isn’t that the key to MLM success?” as it has been accurately pointed out by JoeCool elsewhere.

  5. Vogel permalink
    January 5, 2012 12:54 pm

    Xowii Shill said: “I think people that criticize MLM have not been taught how to market their business the correct way.”

    You think wrong. I criticize MLM because it warrants criticism. No other reason. No amount of MLM reprogramming/motivational garbage could possibly change that. You’d have to use stronger methods to get me to stop being critical; water-boarding perhaps.

    Xowii Shill said: “Most people end up pushing their business like an obnoxious “pyramid” guy. Learn marketing and you can be successful anywhere!”

    That’s because all the leaders of these companies are exactly those kind of people. Look at any distributors meeting and you’ll find nothing but “obnoxious pyramid guys” on stage. MLMs like this have a bad reputation because they’ve earned it. There’s no honest way to sell a significant amount of an overpriced near-useless MLM product. That’s why the sellers so often act like hustlers and second-rate con men. If you are given a sack of dirt to sell for $100, how else are you going to do it other that to lie and behave like a greasy hustler?

    If you learn marketing, there’s no need to jump into the MLM snake hole. Skilled marketers are in demand in the real business world. You’re delusional. Put down the Kool-Aid.

  6. January 5, 2012 1:02 pm

    I wouldn’t spend too much time bothering with the Xowii guy. His original comment was made over a year and a half ago. I bet the guy’s already quit 🙂

    What would be interesting to discuss is what kind of guidance TEAM leaders would provide if a TEAM member were to come up to them and say that they’ve been keeping score and things aren’t working with their business. Would Orrin, Chris, and Tim counsel them to keep “doing what you’re doing,” and everything will work out in the end? Or would they step up and say, “Maybe this business isn’t for you?”

  7. January 5, 2012 1:17 pm

    I’m sure that there would be the perfect CD or upcoming seminar that would get them back on track…….

    These guys talk around themselves so many times that I would be surprised if they actually were consistent with a message other than to keep buying TEAM/LIFE crap.

    My-Lanta! I would encourage all LIFE members to keep score. Honestly and truly.

    January 5, 2012 3:40 pm

    Amthrax, I will tell you what my PC said when I asked him what to do since my business was not growing and I was doing everything they said to do… DO MORE, GET BETTER. Go to more meetings, listen to more cd’s, read more books, associate more with the right people. Basically, keep spending money so he could line his pockets even more.

  9. not signed up yet permalink
    January 5, 2012 4:46 pm

    I was told that TEAM didn’t have “employees” they had “TEAM members” and you weren’t an employee you were and IBO, and didnt have a boss you had a mentor.

    And funny, every time I asked about profit margins on team products, I would not get straight answers.

    Also notice on the list not one word about budgets, cost control, or accounting.

    how do you know what your profits are unless you do those other things?

    Checkpoint, I actually had a team member tell me they are not really selling an opportunity, which is what I was told at the beginning, they are selling information, and that information costs money.

    Okay, fine, but is the information they are selling really worth at least 500 bucks a month? Is there any new information or is it all just the same stuff that is continually re branded?

    Well a know what the answer is.

  10. Brent H permalink
    January 5, 2012 4:53 pm

    @not signed up yet, I love it when you make a comment. You are one of those unique individuals who approached Team like any business owner should. If everyone asked the questions you did, there would be a lot less victims of the industry. Thank you for your comments.

  11. Vogel permalink
    January 5, 2012 5:30 pm

    “Okay, fine, but is the information they are selling really worth at least 500 bucks a month?”

    Ouch! I know of a great place to get business information for 6K a year — it’s called an MBA program.

    Painful to think of all that money and all those opportunities squandered isn’t it?

  12. Finally permalink
    January 5, 2012 7:01 pm

    Great comment Brent, we were always taught that we need to treat the team like a business but the minute you do, and ask business questions you get the run around. They are not legitimate and do not want to be legitimate.

    @webelieved, you are so right about all your comments… has nothing to do with getting better it has everything to do with getting better at getting people on system to keep the cash flowing to the chosen ones…..the PC and their lackeys. We now know Hawkins is on the team welfare program because he testified to the Wisconsin attorney general……….and there are others. From what I understand Guzzardo has been given much and is actually a bigger welfare recipient than Hawkins is.

    I had an interesting conversation today with another former liberator, for those that do not know the liberators are run by Jim and Dolores Martin. This is a prime example of how the Team operates. My new friend is a friend of others I have met from that group, we kinda live near each other. I knew some of the martins story but this person filled in some of the blanks and it goes to our threads on how illegitimate the business is. They informed me that Jim got out of his job after going T100 in 24 months, I think I remember one of their story cd’s the said that. What it didn’t say, according to my new friend is that the reason they went T100 is that a couple on their team went extremely fast to Turbo 50. Ken and Denise Wrobleski. They went pent PP in the first four months in the business and without the help of their up line. Martins got all the recognition and Wrobleski’s did the work. This new friend was p o’d because of all the lies that were told about Ken and Denise after they left the business. They were getting slammed by their up lines, especially Dolores because some of their team left with them. She was telling friends of
    Denise, that were still in the business, what a lack of character Denise had some leader eh?? That coming from a “leader” that had their way to diamond bought for them. Another case of business as usual on the team. This person also said that they and many of their team kept receipts and credit card info from when they all got together and bought Martins way to diamond. They personally spent over 2k on product and I heard the Wrobleski’s went into debt way more than that. I am going to try to get a lunch with them and see if they will talk to me about their story. It is sad and I do not know how a couple can take credit for something they didn’t do……it is pathetic…….They did say one thing, that Jim does work extremely hard and would show the plan anywhere anytime. Can’t take that away from him but how in the world can you take a trip to Hawaii when you didn’t earn and and others went into THOUSANDS of dollars of debt for you??………..They told me of another guy in Marin’s leg that was given the 3rd 50 systems of his triple 50 recognition. Not surprising. I had heard that before, It was Tim Jarvinen. I think he did a cd with Tim Marks. How does he qualify to be on a CD when he is given welfare?? I think I was at the seminar when that couple got recognized for triple 50 and from what a remember the wife was emotional……..make me PUKE………Losers posing as leaders from getting welfare in the form of numbers.

    This is exactly what everyone on here is saying, there is very little recognition that is actually earned on Team. And the ones that did earn it, like John and Melanie Morgan get it stolen from them. Oh when the truth comes out……OH MY……I have met people in all these organizations and the stories are crazy…. most of the people that got hammered did kept all their paperwork…….and proof of what was done, by whom and for how much. Who knows, they may need it one day………

    One more thing. I did attend an open run by the Martins at a golf club. We brought some peeps that new the Hubers story and wanted to see them…….an hour and a half drive to see the worst and most bizarre night owl in team history. This was after team figured out they were clueless on MV and a binary. You are not going to believe this. Huber actual started explaining the binary and how the team leadership got fooled……..Huber then said, and I quote “The Team leaders got fooled with the binary and we have been building a pyramid for the last 6 months” He then started laughing and and repeated again how we were all building a pyramid. He said that they were actually building a spider ball turned sideways and he drew it out on the board. He actually said Orrin, Chris, Myself and the other leaders all got fooled….and then he went on to explain some other crap for an hour and a half…..ARE YOU FLIPPING KIDDING ME????????He said to a room full of people that we all were building a pyramid. Our couple never came back and from what I heard others quit that night as well……….Great leaders!!!!!! Awesome job at mentoring guy’s……huber the financial wizard, parent of the year and master pyramid builder……..How many times has he been edified as a great leader and student…..what a joke. Sorry for the rambling but all this is pertinent to Orrin as a guru for the reasons he has stated many many times. If a leader doesn’t know what his leaders are doing they aren’t much of a leader. Did he know all of this was going on? If he did it reaffirms that he has some serious character issues…..if he didn’t, he sucks as a leader by his definition.


  13. Speak Your Truth permalink
    January 5, 2012 8:32 pm

    OMg…….”an hour and a half drive to see the worst and most bizarre night owl in team history”

    Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahahahahahhah! That has got to be the best ‘night owl’ story I have ever heard! hahahahahahahahahaha!

    Seriously? A triple 100 pyramid schemer along with the guru’s being ‘tricked’ …hahahahahahahahahah OMg that is a knee splapper!!! hahahahahahahhahahahhaha!

    “The Team leaders got fooled with the binary and we have been building a pyramid for the last 6 months” hahahahahahahahahaha

    “He said that they were actually building a spider ball turned sideways and he drew it out on the board. He actually said Orrin, Chris, Myself and the other leaders all got fooled…” Omg hahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahahhahahahhahhahahahahhaha

    Thanks for the laughs Finally that is seriously the BEST!

    Geez why didn’t the guru’s… inform the thousands this one!

  14. billy permalink
    January 5, 2012 8:44 pm

    @Finally – I had a brief discussion about the Hawkins with TEAM/LIFE friends (all of my questions denied – was told to ask Dan about my concerns myself in Ohio). Is there a link somewhere to the attorney general comment above?

    By the way, I signed onto LIFE to watch its evolution. My point volume was high the first month and fell off the second, meaning people quit buying stuff, and only four new couples came on board. We’ll see how things go after the third 30 days. I’m not concerned about LIFE’s P&Ps, either. No need to refer to my activity here.

    I’ll be waiting. Thanks.

  15. Speak Your Truth permalink
    January 5, 2012 8:52 pm


    You kill me…I cannot stop laughing…every time you say ‘welfare’…hahahaha…I cannot stop laughing at your comments!

  16. Speak Your Truth permalink
    January 5, 2012 9:07 pm

    My heart goes out to Ken and Denise the real leaders build it and the proudful and arrogant ones demand the credit! Very sick…no such thing as their bogus ‘performance’ based bs! I do know of another Big leader this happened to also in a very similar fashion…built the teams of many but never got the ‘edification’ only a lot of grief. But you know what I found is that those who truly never wanted the credit are the ones who were the real leaders!!! And are also the one’s who had integrity and left the con’s in the dust! So good for Ken and Denise…I already know they will do something great!

  17. not signed up yet permalink
    January 5, 2012 9:37 pm

    Brent H


    Thats because I have a business. I know how a real business works and I know what I need to do to be profitable.

    I do everything TEAM doesn’t do and I do fine. I am not wealthy but I do all right and I am happy.

    What do I do?

    I trade my time for money at the rate of $60.00 bucks and hour. Yeah it aint cheap, but I am good at what I do and have 25 years experience at it.

    I will tell you what TEAM wont. I try to operate at a 20 to 30% profit level on any project I get.

    I also watch spending stick to a budget and minimize my costs so I can try and make more. I also look at cost effective ways to execute a project for my clients. And I also listen to clients criticism, because my work is criticized every time I make a proposal. Its part of my business.

    I remember listening to the plan and about STP 15 times a month for an hour per plan at no pay. I was told you have to show the plan 15 times a month to get 2-3 people to sign up. No thank you.

    Hmmm I can get 15 hours of consultation work a month at $60.00 an hour and actually make money.

    I dont want to compare apples to oranges but I think my plan is a bit better than TEAMs.

    My BS detector started going off when my business questions were not answered in a straight forward way, or deflected. ‘

    As far as teams “marketing” wow. Get a meeting, and invite the person you are meeting to a meeting. And multiple meetings.

  18. January 5, 2012 9:56 pm

    Funny thing, I watched the video and notice 2 things:

    1. Orrin is a really crappy at reading aloud!

    2. Orrin himself is the Emperor with no clothes on. This website has stripped him of his undies. After giving him and his nerd herd a proverbial wedgie.

    Nice when his own words are effectively used against him. Saves time.

  19. Speak Your Truth permalink
    January 5, 2012 10:01 pm



  20. Finally permalink
    January 6, 2012 4:50 am

    Yes Speak, that was quite the night and funny as well 🙂 I am happy I gave you a good laugh….we all need that.

    Not signed up yet, great post. That is the way to analyze a business.

    The team is about peaking your interest at the plan, confusing you at the Open meeting and locking you emotionally at the seminar……….Repeat with new guy.

  21. I QUIT (and glad I did) permalink
    January 6, 2012 4:56 am

    Not signed up yet- “I have a business. I know how real business works. I do everything Team doesn’t do and I do fine.”
    I have been laughing for ten minutes. Thank you for a nugget of wisdom that will keep me laughing all day!
    I LOVE IT!
    Put that one in your pipe and smoke it Owen!

  22. switch permalink
    January 6, 2012 5:51 am

    August 18, 2011 9:15 am
    I love it…. more comments please! This book isn’t going to publish if there aren’t more posts like the recent ones. Like Tim Tebow said “I appreciate that”. I never thought it would be this much fun reading these posts.

    Coincidence…….? What a shame they have to keep score. It’s too bad they’re getting their ass handed to them. Maybe we have our answer to the anonymous blogger seeing how he loves to quote MWRascal on “saying things best”?

  23. Speak Your Truth permalink
    January 6, 2012 7:11 am


    I am still laughing hahaha. I am sure it wasn’t funny to you or anyone else at the time especially after driving an hour and a half with ‘prospects’ but that is histerical! There was a speaker that I know of that was blowing prospects out with their ‘bizarre’ plan and the leaders would check every week where he was speaking and refused to go or take any prospects…hahahaha! What was Huber thinking, was he trying to blow people out..seriously… or was he on something that he would be telling the audience and the ‘new prospects’, he and the PC were ”fooled” into the Monavie pyramid? Not too bright.. Hahahaha.

    Well, this must have been after the 3 million dollar “loan”..and the infamous ‘bench marking study.’ Does Dallin know that is what the ‘leadership’ was saying about MV, did Orrin have the guts to tell Dallin he was ‘fooled’ by his pyramid scheme?

    Is this on their ‘scoreboard’.. jumping from one “illegal pyramid with hopelessly overpriced products”~ Orrin says about Amway to Monavie being a sideways spider ball pyramid? Hahaha.. Is this why he QUIT on Monavie.. the message from the video…”the scoreboard”.. the “ever growing quitters club of the world”..admitting… “more are quitting than joining them”…”it doesn’t make it right” …”success isn’t the majority”?…

    What a total farce they are. That is right you can’t fool all the people all the time! And the most discusting of all they knew this the whole time and never told everyone (except the privy ones at the open…hahaha) but still promoted it and had people inventory loading…and no doubt going into major debt! Oh how much they (don’t) ‘care’ about others success!


    I wonder if they are keeping score of all those leaders that left because they were found out for their lack of integrity and all the other shenanigans..or are they keeping score of how many lies they have told?

  24. Freedomhaha permalink
    January 7, 2012 1:15 pm

    @Amthax- Teamsters are touting a new “big” award that Orrin won. I am sure you are looking into this, but knowing TEAM the award has another side to it. Keep up the great work! Freedom!

  25. January 7, 2012 2:32 pm

    Go to my original Arthur Carmazzi post; there’s third-party information from me and Vogel that does not cast IAB in a very positive light.

  26. Freedomhaha permalink
    January 7, 2012 4:09 pm

    @Amthrax and @Vogel- Awesome work thanks a lot. Since TEAM is now using this I would love to see a whole post about the IAB award.

  27. John permalink
    January 8, 2012 10:12 am

    Finally, when did you hear Mark Huber give that talk where he admitted he and the Team lief leaders were fooled into the Monavie Pyramid? Was it back a year or so or was it fairly recently? It would be interesting to know if they are now trying to cover their butt because they know the truth is catching up to them. They were promoting Monavie as if it was the greatest opportunity out there but all the while the top leaders knew the truth about it. This goes to show that they are not concerened about character, conviction, integrity,honesty, and doing what is right. No, not at all. How about, “Money”, “Smear your opponents”, “Self-preservation”, “Keep the ship of deception afloat”, and “Protect our fake ‘Guru’s’ at all costs”.

  28. junebug permalink
    January 9, 2012 2:07 pm

    Hi everyone,

    I just had to comment because I had never heard of LIFE/Team until a few days ago when an acquaintance pitched the spiel to my spouse and me. I’m familiar with Amway, so I know how scripted the proposal sounds, but this organization was downright unsettling because of the weird insistence upon Orrin Woodward being some sort of guru (who I had never heard of before), without whose guidance my life would never be complete. When I got home, I tried to do some independent online research, and I was even more creeped out by the lack of actual information about the organization. All I could find were blogs containing replicas of the same fanatical-sounding blurbs I was fed at the initial meeting. I’m sure this isn’t surprising to any of you, but I just wanted to say that I was happy to find this site, as it is literally the only source I could find that seems to have reliable information.

    Needless to say, we turned down the invitation!

  29. January 9, 2012 2:33 pm

    @junebug – good for you! Glad that this site helped you.

  30. webelieved permalink
    January 9, 2012 2:49 pm

    Junebug- I was deeply involved in Team for years and In my opinion their heirarchy operates like a cult. That is why you won’t get straight answers to your questions. I am glad your crap meter is working. Welcome to the site. I would reccomend you read the LIFE PRIMER at the top right. It will help you be informed.

  31. Speak Your Truth permalink
    January 9, 2012 4:23 pm

    Way to go Junebug! Glad you found the site! 🙂

  32. John permalink
    January 9, 2012 6:57 pm

    I listened with a great amount of pain to the video posted here. It is a chore to listen to this rant. Once you get past the poor grammer and propaganda you are left wondering if anyone in his audience has any critical thinking skills. Mr. Leadership Guru can say all of these things on this video but the fact remains that he is a very poor teacher. He teaches that his Life Business is a great opportunity yet the statistics show that the vast majority fail at it. He teaches that his so-called “system” works 100% of the time if you follow it properly. And yet the statistics also show that the vast majority fail in his business in spite of this so called great “System”.

    Why is this?

    1. Is the Guru a poor teacher that simply can’t get his followers to do the simple things that create sucess?
    2. Is the “system” really not as good as the Team leaders claim?
    3. Is the business opportunity over-hyped and in reality a poor business that has very little chance for success?
    4. Is the Guru merely using faulty logic to persuade his gullible and unthinking audience to keep buying the fools dream?

    The answer is yes to all of the above questions.

    Mr. Emperor (who has no clothes) there are many people on this blog who have your number. They see through you completely. Despite how you dress up the Life business with your skewed logic and silly analogies it is still what it is…a business that will leave the vast majority of those who join Team-Life emotionally, financially, and socially in ruins. The landscape of America is already littered with the disasters of those who have been terribly hurt by you and your leaders. Please wake up and dismantle this awful people grinding machine. Is your lavish life-style really worth the devestation you are creating?

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