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Coal In The Stockings: Is TEAM Moving Backwards?

December 21, 2010

Saw this comment on the JuiceScam web site regarding purported rough spots for TEAM:

Over the past two or three months TEAM distributors have been hitting “rough spots” (as they call them) in the area of cash flow. Distributors that are “high” and “low” on the pyramid are quitting at a rapid pace in this area. The Woodward’s, Brady’s, and the Marks have all left Flint and are now concentrating on screwing gullible poor people in other states showing the rest of TEAM what they are really like and what real TEAM leaders do. Now that they are gone the true view of TEAM cannot be hidden and is starting to show itself. Theie scam is falling apart. I know of at least three TEAM members that have lost their houses and either them or their wife has had to lower themselves and get real jobs to help with their failing “business”. The TEAM office is cutting hours back and laying workers off. Things are getting so bad that the great Orrin Woodward is making a trip up to try and calm everything down with some of his great pep talks and one liner quotes. So, to your point Switch and Mackwiz I would bet that you will not get a TEAM or Mona Vie distributor to say anything on here expect “Are you hiring?”.

With other TEAM members coming out and commenting about their experiences, it begs the question if there is more dissension and “rough spots” within TEAM than Orrin and the Policy Council leaders are letting on. I for one don’t think it’s the case of a few grumpy ex-distributors but a sign that this pyramidal double sandcastle is about to fall. I am curious to know which high pin distributors are leaving the business due to these cash flow difficulties. With the RVL weight loss products coming soon from MonaVie, are distributors going to be encouraged or coerced to buy not only their weekly cases of MonaVie but also a month’s supply of RVL supplements and shakes? Coupled with System expenses, I can see how this can cause additional problems.

The commenter also mentioned that the TEAM office is cutting hours and laying off staff. On this R3Global blog post, there was a comment about the closing of their Irvine office:

Hello Eileen, the Irvine office of R3Global is closing but R3Global is definitely not closing. The R3Global Jacksonville Headquarters and Store will continue to provide great service to MonaVie distributors worldwide!

A sign of the current economy or a sign that something more is up with two of the larger Systems in North America?

As Anna pointed out on her blog, there is life after Amway (and other MLMs like MonaVie), and there are more opportunities out there to earn additional income beyond what your job can provide.

56 Comments leave one →
  1. December 26, 2010 8:11 am

    I think it’s only a matter of time before we see TEAM move on to another product/company.

    The magic purple juice may have run its course already.

  2. December 27, 2010 1:31 pm

    isn’t this all just a normal part of business operations in this ECONOMY?
    why the lynching? there are countless businesses that are doing far worse out there.

  3. switch permalink
    December 28, 2010 11:55 am

    Funny you should know about the companies doing “far worse”.

    People are catching on.

  4. aurora permalink
    January 1, 2011 11:04 am

    This commenter requested that her comments be removed from this site.

  5. Burned Out With MV permalink
    January 7, 2011 4:05 am

    Sounds about right, once an area is tapped out the leaders move on to fresh pastures loaded with new sheep.

  6. Major Dave Stoner permalink
    January 8, 2011 12:51 pm

    I wanna give my former TEAM Results sheep a hats off for going Round Table. I’m pretty sure this has already happened before but you know how they like to rewrite history.

  7. January 8, 2011 6:11 pm

    Major Dave Stoner – Can you elaborate on your last comment?

  8. Major Dave Stoner permalink
    January 13, 2011 3:41 pm

    I had heard from a old TEAM friend that TEAM Results just went Policy Roundtable. I remember that at least 3 years ago in between the Amway MonaVie period. Now to all the NEW sheeple this is a phenomal achievement to their leadership. I think that George Guzzardo has gone Diamond at the same level at least twice. What a GD phony that assclown is. How come these people that I got away from (who are worse off now) keep telling me about this crap? I have told them I could give a rats rearend about TEAM but its like talking to brainwashed cultists. Team is a Cult and is based on lies!!!

  9. January 13, 2011 3:58 pm

    @MDS – Can you clarify for those not familiar with the TEAM structure what it means to go Policy Roundtable? Does that mean you have demonstrated results in Amway/MonaVie like going Diamond? And is TEAM Results the name of a particular sub-group within TEAM?

  10. Major Dave Stoner permalink
    January 14, 2011 6:09 pm

    Team Results is the U.P. and North Central Wisconsin Group led by George Guzzardo and Bob Rasmussen. I never really am quite sure what it means to go Policy Roundtable but I never really cared then or now. Maybe the all knowing Rykel could expalain to you. I thought it was just a motivational set-up to get the downline to perform better. I think it was something to throw at us to get “Fired Up”. By the way I am not even sure if Team Results even has many U.P. or Northern Wisconsin members anymore. PS- Team Results is part of TEAM.

  11. team deception permalink
    March 1, 2011 8:24 am

    “Things are getting so bad that the great Orrin Woodward is making a trip up to try and calm everything down with some of his great pep talks and one liner quotes.”

    According to Orrin Woodwards twitter account he is on his way up to Michigan for a PC meeting. I can assure you that this blog and juicescam will be on his agenda to talk about. He seems like the type of guy that would sit at his desk all day googling his name looking to see what people are saying about how great of a leader he is.

  12. team deception permalink
    March 1, 2011 6:57 pm

    Is this a normal pattern for the Kingpins to travel in? They seem like they are hitting the Northern states pretty hard the last several months. Are they rallying the troops or is this standard pep rally practice?

    3-1-11 Bill and Jackie Lewis in Southfield MI
    3-2-11 Claude and lana Hamilton in Ottowa Ontario
    3-12-11 George and Jill Guzzardo in Madison Wisconsin
    3-12-11 Orrin “the mighty” Woodward will be in Lansing MI

  13. team deception permalink
    March 3, 2011 8:58 am

    What type of honest and successful company cannot deliver an income disclosure statement since June 09? Real companies do not get away with that. You know if they were even breaking even they would have that statement out in no time.

  14. Speak Your Truth permalink
    March 3, 2011 10:53 am

    team deception
    NO, this is not a normal pattern, this is their last ditch effort to try and save their sinking ship.
    This was our group, 2nd largest in Orrin’s business “according to him when we were in” and by the looks of it, (and judging by their “panic attack” they are extemely desperate, hence why all the Leaders to “beg and turn their maniputlation & guilt to a white-hot level” to, in someway try and save them.) A couple of the leaders(there is 2 Diamonds in and an Emerald and some rubies, golds, etc. we have over 8000 people in our group, they were successful or so they think by removing us, but I beg to differ.) that they are desperately trying to save, I believe directly because of this site.This is so predictable it is pathetic,they cannot not outsmart us we know them too well, but as I said before;”I believe you cannot steal from people and expect them not to tell the truth and neither can you prosper and they have messed with God’s laws, nothing can save them now.” This “panic attack” is a direct result from what they stole from ALL the people speaking on here and they know in their gut “it is the death of their business, caused by their own destruction.” So, I say let us watch them self-destruct and have all the “panic attacks they deserve to have” and all the Glory goes to God because this I believe is the END for them! That is why we are so grateful to all have this space to share the “TRUTH”, IT IS INTENSLY FREEING!

  15. I Quit ( and glad I did) permalink
    March 3, 2011 3:01 pm

    “Time to circle the wagons boys and girls. The evil internet naysayers are at it again.”
    I can hear it now, “Wait, wait! Wheres everybody going? Wait! Wait! Come back here! I’m your leeeeeadeeeeeeerrrrrrrr!
    HEE HEE, HA HA, HOO HOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  16. Speak Your Truth permalink
    March 3, 2011 4:57 pm

    Thanks comrades!!!!! Seminar? Only if I Quit and will go with us, lmao!

  17. March 3, 2011 5:09 pm

    We need a pamphlet with the main points from this blog written in it so that we can all attend these pep rally’s and hand them out to the new guys getting ready to have the plan shown to them. That way they have some interesting questions that they could be asking their sponsor.

  18. March 3, 2011 9:11 pm

    haha, wouldn’t that be a trip. let me know when you guys want to go for old time sake. we can sport our red ties, bring some xs energy and draw circles at the concession stand counter for all the employees working, because you know how hard up we all get for a new ibo

  19. March 3, 2011 9:12 pm

    One that is embarrassed of their numbers. Monavie must be sinking fast. This is why orrin is starting a new venture with life training and branching out to sell his tools to other mlms. the sad part is that he will be the only one profiting and a handful of his profit sharing pc members. the little guy will not stand a chance at making any money in his business.

  20. Speak Your Truth permalink
    March 3, 2011 9:22 pm

    You’ve done it again,lmao!

  21. Speak Your Truth permalink
    March 3, 2011 9:27 pm

    Hurry, Hurry, plug the holes, there are no life boats, they are sinking!
    This ought to be a joy to watch how they spin this one “unqualified life training”, I would say good luck but they don’t have a chance! Can’t wait for the official name change, lol!

  22. March 3, 2011 9:34 pm

    lol, it is going to be fun to watch it! I agree

    I feel like Steve Buscemi in Armegeddon where he says “We have front row seats to the end of the world!!” That is exactly how I feel here. God is on our side and will not let these sins go unpunished. I pray daily that team and orrin will be exposed for the corrupt practices and unethical business that it is. By God’s divine Grace, justice will be served!!!!

  23. March 3, 2011 9:41 pm

    😉 lol

    looking back I really do have serious regrets on the person that I allowed the business to make me. Things I did and the way they taught me to contact others, ruin relationships, and view people that chose not to do this business. It is a pit in my stomach that lingers to this day. I acted on the emotions of the CDs and it is exactly like you said, when you listen to the top 50 over and over and over you really feel like Superman or superwoman and no one else matters. you love your upline and your leaders and all others are morons.

    That is just wrong to treat people like third class citizens and team is so good at getting you to BUY-IN to that logic. It is truly hard to snap out of that MIND CONTROL. I cannot wait for you to start your mind-control blog. I will be all over it!

  24. Dorothy permalink
    March 4, 2011 5:24 pm

    This commenter requested that her comments be removed from this site.

  25. March 4, 2011 5:39 pm

    Dorothy – You are right. Good thing we are starting to connect on these blogs and hopefully we will have more avenues to help other heal and cope as the mass EXODUS begins. People need alot of love, prayer and support during these times.

  26. outsider permalink
    April 21, 2011 8:33 am

    While I’m not in the mlm world, I have a family member who recently started trying to sell mv, prompting me to read your stories here (and elsewhere). Your comments on the idea of watching this ship sink bring to mind my feelings about witnessing some of this, in general, and I thought I’d share them.

    First of all, let me say, after having read what so many of you have gone thru, I’m with you (and who wouldn’t be?!) – the idea of watching the mv/team ship go down is oddly satisfying, even for an outsider! It really couldn’t happen quick enough, and a big flashy death would be so much more satisfying than a lingering one, too.

    That being said, no matter what happens with mv or team or any of the ‘biz’, I’m getting an increasingly sick feeling lately from witnessing what is going on with the mv selling relatives! I just saw them briefly (hadn’t met with them in person in about a month). I get the distinct feeling that I have a front row seat to a nightmare in the making, and at the moment there doesn’t seem to be anything I can do to stop it. While I care very much for the folks I am talking about, I am not someone that these particular relatives would willingly take advice from. So, at the moment, I feel like I would if I were witnessing a train about to crash or something . . . And my own family members are on that train. Kids are on that train. Heck, their own parents are steering the train!

    I’ve got the nauseating feeling that disaster is brewing and it may be that all I can really do is sit here and wait with one hand on the first aid kit . . . As I am typing this, it’s sounding too dramatic, but I have this BAD feeling that it’s not.

    I wonder what you guys can say about this – I’m sure from your posts that many of you had friends and family that immediately wanted to steer you out of the mess/disaster you were getting into. What have they told you about that now that you are out? When you look back, was there anything they said or did that helped you in the long run? Have any of you been able to talk openly with those who saw the handwriting on the wall? Or is it still too painful to talk about?
    [Oh, man, I seriously don’t want to make any of you feel worse! I’m just grabbing at straws here! Any comments would be appreciated.]

  27. Speak Your Truth permalink
    April 21, 2011 1:05 pm

    Sorry to say there isn’t an easy, quick fix.
    They train and convince (brainwash) you very early on; on every objection imaginable and create the ‘us vs them'(outsiders are trying to steal it from them) that takes a strong hold against any resistance you will ever come against because you believe this is ‘the only’ way you will get that ‘financial freedom-passive-residual’ and your dreams.

    I don’t know of anything you could possibly say that would change for someone who is completely conviced (other than intervention); ‘they’-the Team are the answer to ‘all of their problems.’
    I do know what doesn’t work and that is attacking with the information you know is truth because they will automatically shut you down with the ‘auto-responses.’
    Just read the ‘defenders’ that come on here and other sites they say the say ole crap,(repeating their ‘auto-responses’) even though they don’t prove what they say and never answer the hard questions.

    You could read some books that would shed some light on what you are dealing with:, Steve Hassan goes through in his “Combating Mind Control” book that would help you understand more.
    Also, I cannot find the link on here (under webelieved) that has the link to the free book “Merchants of Deception.” ~(I will try & find this).
    You will get an eye-opener from this book on how the inner workings happen.

    Also: and
    These are other great resources.

    Hope this helps, I believe it will show you how this web of deceit can capture anyone and will educate you with some valuable info.

    You may have to wait it out for them to learn of the lies, deception and ‘going broke’ for themselves to wake up. Everyone is different, we never had anyone try and ‘get us out’ we learned it all on our own~the hard way! I know others have been told by their families that they were in a cult, and it doesn’t phase the them when you are under the ‘undo influence’ because you become immuned to the ‘outside’ ‘negative naysayers who are trying to steal your dream’ or jealous of your success or ‘everyone wants you to get ahead; just not ahead of them’ or they ‘aren’t helping you’ or ‘what are they offering you’ or ‘they don’t have the financial success’ or ‘they have no vested interest in you’ on and on and on, we these brainwashing techniques.

    I don’t believe you can logic anyone out because they are emotionally attatched and dependent!
    I respect you for caring so much about your family.
    I hope this helps and hope you keep us posted.

  28. Speak Your Truth permalink
    April 21, 2011 4:12 pm

    My parents have always been very supportive of us, make my own decisions and have always allowed us to trust our own judgement.
    I have always been very close and have been open with them and they knew that Orrin & Laurie were very good friends of ours or least so we thought, what a lie and they faked it for a very long time.

    When one of my parents met Orrin and said she felt a strong pretense about him. Then when they stole our buisness ‘customers’ and stopped paying us, slander us and tried to assignate our character etc. they were not suprised they knew it was Greed!

    They gave some advice on attorney’s and other things, and recognized the greed and hatefulness of the way they treated us.

    But they also believe that sooner or later, there is price to pay and they will pay it!

    So, the support, understanding and knowing that they care, was the most important thing to help us through the ‘illusion from hell’.

    Orrin and his fall guy destroyed many people in our team, so a lot of them, like most have seen the ‘writting on the wall’ after the fog lifts, now all of them feel healthier and happier and don’t miss a thing.
    They see the corruption for what it is!

    Hope this helps. And don’t worry there isn’t anything to make us feel worse after what we have experienced. It is just the opposite and is extremely freeing to speak out and to know someone like you can see the truth, is my greatest reward~Thanks.

  29. outsider permalink
    April 21, 2011 4:25 pm

    OK – thanks, SYT. That is how it seems to me. It is feeling very bad to not be able to prevent something potentially bad here because there are kids involved, but I have been thinking about this – AFTER reading a lot of your stories! – for a month now and I can’t come up with anything that has a chance of doing any good, while lots of things I’d like to do/say have a chance of making things worse.

    I’m looking forward to comments from more of you who can speak from personal experience on this, but please do note that I’ve read your previous posts re: the cult mentality and where to get more info on that already. (I’m adding this to save folks the trouble of cutting and pasting for me.) It’s great that you guys have all looked into all that and discussed it already. It’s good info to have available here, and I’ll wager more people than you know of come here and make use of it without ever posting back to you about it. I’ll say thanks for all of us. 🙂

    Anybody else recall anything that ultimately helped them in retrospect?

  30. dmricha permalink
    April 21, 2011 11:44 pm

    outsider – It took my husband and I awhile to deprogram ourselves. Mostly because we didn’t want to believe that we were lied to. These people were supposed to care about us. They were supposed to be our friends. When someone that you hold so close to you willfully and continuously deceives you no matter how hard someone pushes facts you won’t be able to see it.

    To be completely honest we still find ourselves falling back onto old habits. A quote or something comes back to mind and I’ll think “oh how true”. That’s they way TEAM works. There is so much good (true) information mixed in that you don’t notice the lies at first.

    But we kept reading business books. Picking up Rich Dad Poor Dad really opened our eyes. We started questioning everything around us. We took our concerns to our uplines and they just shoved more cds at us. We were good TEAMsters so we really did believe that it was just us.

    It wasn’t. The truth was right in front of our faces but still we refused to fully acknowledge what was going on. We wanted to believe that these people cared about us. My husband loves his job and doesn’t intend to retire any time soon but I hated mine and desperately wanted out. We also brought a lot of people in and felt guilty about leaving them behind. There was still that huge nagging doubt. I was (and still am) addicted to business books. I started reading off system books and I had this big epiphany. Everything about MV and TEAM was fake. We had to get out even if it meant leaving our downline behind.

    At the last major we went to (even though it was supposed to be the biggest and the best one yet) fell flat. The TEAM magic wasn’t there. The moment they announced that they changed the recommended reading list so that the order of the books should coincide with the way I thoughts should be progressing we were officially done. No list should decided which way my thoughts progressed and I strongly resented being told what was ok for me to read anyway. If we had the money we would have left right then.

    After that major we had a huge argument with the uplines and left TEAM for good.

    To sum up a really long rant get them to read. Get them to read Rich Dad Poor Dad and Cash Flow Quadrant. Both are on system so they should be reading them anyway. They show that the money isn’t in being apart of someone else’s system. There are so many other ways for them to achieve their dreams.

    My husband and I aren’t rich but we don’t have any debt, I own a work out of my home in my own business, and get to spend all the time I want with my children. I’m also 71/2 months pregnant because I actually get to spend time with my husband. They tell them that TEAM makes their marriages better. They’re business owners. They’ll be better parents. They’ll be closer to God. All of that is false. The reasons for joining TEAM are different for everyone. Find out what theirs is. Try to work at it from that angle. Try to figure out what they want from TEAM and show them other aways to get it.

    Sorry if none of this makes much sense. I’m tired and a bit emotional. Good Luck =)

  31. humiliated permalink
    April 22, 2011 7:40 am

    Outsider, I feel for you. I was never a part of TEAM, only Monavie.

    I remember when I told my mother about Monavie, she said she did some research on it and it was essentially “snake oil”. Now, my mother is a voracious reader and has an educational background in the sciences (I don’t) and there I was trying to convince her that this wasn’t just fruit punch. We didn’t talk about it again as it became a bone of contention between us, but I must say, I never forgot that comment and wondered where she had read it. But, because it was my MOTHER I rebelled in a very mature way and kept on keepin’ on with my false beliefs in Monavie.

    A very good friend who is a bonafide scientist researched the product and the “studies” that had been done and told me essentially what my mom had told me and I believed her, but I was still having a hard time accepting the my friends had lied to me. I talked to a nutritionist and got confirmation that MV was really just over priced juice.

    I then started reading these sites and it took me a while to trust the people that run the sites (Amthrax & Juicescam/Lazyman) but I began to see that I was lied to, but so were the people that lied to me. Once I had established that the product was crap, I then began to dissect the “business” and “company” and that hurt. I had been unknowingly involved in a pyramid scheme/scam & brought friends and family into this as well.

    I am giving you a background and showing you that it was definitely a process…the seed of doubt was planted and I never forgot about it.

    One other thing I should mention is that I am an atheist. At a local level the meetings were not religious based so I wasn’t aware that there was this heavy “Christian” influence that existed. I put Christian in quotes because, while I am an atheist, I wholly embrace spirituality and respect people and their beliefs, just as I expect to be respected for mine, but this wasn’t Christianity, this was GREED dressed up in Christianity. It completely turned me off when I saw the integration of religion and business and that REALLY helped me to walk away.

    I don’t know if any of this helps you but those are the things that opened my eyes. I really hope that your family gets out without too much damage being done.

  32. Speak Your Truth permalink
    April 22, 2011 10:50 am

    Could you share what their new ‘recommended’ book list is you mentioned?

    I too resented the way they wanted to Control every area of your life and especially your thinking. This was the start of the ‘waking up’ for me when I started noticing this and the subtleties weren’t so sublte anymore. This was the beginning of what saved me and I stopped believing anything the PC said. It became obvious they were hiding things and we a bunch of fakes.
    I became very angry at this point but kept it in because I felt exactly like you; How could we leave all those people we brought in, how could I make this ‘wrong’ a ‘right’? I couldn’t figure it out and it was the most excruicating guilt I have ever felt and became ashamed.
    I hated them using us and trapping us and they constantly pounded the ‘you can’t quit, if you brought someone in.’ I couldn’t shake the grip it had on me.

    Orrin was constantly bragging about himself and still does just read what he says about himself on his blog about the new book, he acts like he is giving the credit to Chris, but you don’t have to read far to see who he is really promoting. He constantly tells everyone you should give the credit away but he steals everyone’s idea’s and claims it for himself.
    This is the prime example of my point that opened my eyes.

    It is revolting to me and I really cannot gut his narcississm.
    He would make his point he wanted him to be the only one edified from stage. Every time he spoke to us privately, I recognized the pattern. There was no depth to the relationship and I could predict what he was going to say every time. I began to really see darkness in him and the game he played of how he was the ‘all knowing’, the only one with the answers to all of lifes questions. It was really creepy to spend time with them privately, his arrogance about himself was so obvious to me and I couldn’t figure out why others couldn’t see it, not even my spouse.

    I seriously felt like I was listening to a cult leader talk about himself, it was surreal.

    It became so obvious and I was so discusted I couldn’t even stand to listen to them anymore. All’s I could do was fight the influence they tried to push on us. I lost every ounce of respect for him and Laurie (she agreed with everything he would say) I could see in both of them something had really went wrong. She was not like that in the beginning.

    I know this is what saved me. I no longer believed a word he or Laurie said and my eyes became completely opened to the ‘lie’ that they cared and they just wanted the ‘control’.
    I began to see how he was using us and especially abusing the ‘friendship’ with my spouse. Very slowly it started ‘cracking the rose colored glasses’ for my spouse and ended in a very tragic but blantanly obvious event where it couldn’t be denied to my spouse. This was the end.

    The rest was left for us to pick up the pieces of our lives and try to understand this and make amends to those we felt we had hurt.

    I really wish I understood this all at once but it was a progression of small things that became louder and undeniable over time. I could share a ton of other events that revealed the truth over time and wish I would have journaled all of it.

    I am still left with: How could this happen , when will I completely forgive and how do I use this for the good of all?

  33. Speak Your Truth permalink
    April 22, 2011 12:31 pm

    Webelieved reminded me~we never had a site like Amthrax with big leaders sharing the truth that were in the ‘inner circle.’
    It sure would have made a difference to me.

    It would be very hard for someone on the Team that would read this to deny that we weren’t close to the ‘inner circle;’ they would just know by what we have shared.

    Even though ‘outsiders’ can see clearly and have no doubts that this is a scam.
    The ‘insiders’, expect it and are brainwashed on what to say to the ‘outside’ critics and can easily denounce them.

    They don’t have any objections to stop them from believing those from the ‘inside.’ (they try to by lying about us, but people know).
    If you could recognize when your family has a sliver of doubt, (it is usually kept within and hard to see) but would be the opprotune time to share this site with them.

    The Biggest challenge is to get them to Read this, because they lay the guilt on so thick about reading the ‘negative on the internet.’
    I believe to the point they create a phobia with it.

    ‘The walls have eyes” would be very fitting, they are afraid their ‘upline’ will find them out.

  34. outsider permalink
    April 22, 2011 8:41 pm

    Thanks so much to those of you who took the time to reply, first of all! You all have mentioned quite a few important points that I’d like to reply to (or ask another question about), and I’m going to try to do so. It might take me a while to work my way through your posts bit by bit, so I hope you’ll all bear with me on it. (I’m not going to go in order, either!)

    I’d also like to add to all of you that I really have read a lot of your previous posts here and at js in the last month, and I think I get it: I get it that you were brave to get yourselves out and to tell what you are telling. I appreciate that. I think you are going to inspire people in a way that the con men with microphones never have and never will. (Calling it like I see it – and remember, that’s from someone who saw thru’ the smoke and mirrors from the get-go.)

    OK, so, on to the replying . . .
    humiliated just said, “the seed of doubt was planted and I never forgot about it”

    Thank you for sharing that! That does tell me something. I have been debating to myself if attempting to plant that seed could be worth it or not. If it fails, at least I will know that I tried. I had been wondering if there was really no point. Your experience makes me think it is worth trying; if there’s the tiniest chance, I should probably bide my time and try when the opportunity presents itself. (Whereas if there’s truly ZERO chance then I’d rather not risk alienating them, since that could ultimately make it harder for them.)

    humiliated also said: “this was GREED dressed up in Christianity”

    Yes, I get that. (I must say, that part is rather obvious from the outside.)
    And this could pose big problems in this particular case. These guys are into a pretty fundamentalist Christian culture already. Those types of “motivational techniques” will feel familiar, comfortable and “right” to them (maybe even “blessed”). Of course, I get it – that’s why it’s done that way, I know. They’re going to be vulnerable to all that. And, get this: I recently saw them carrying around R3G paraphernalia. I am understanding that R3G is the psuedo-fundamentalist Christian flimflam flavor in mv land. This sounds like bad news. For any of you who have been there, I’m asking: How bad is it?

    So, that brings me to my next question for any of you. I’ve seen that you’ve got folks posting here (like SYT) from firsthand experience on the character and exploits of the TEAM cons. Anybody here who can do that specifically with regard to the R3G cons?

    Let me say, I do get it that con men are all the same. They con people. I know. But I’m thinking about how my relatives would react. They would read or hear about TEAM and say, ‘Why are you pointing this out? That’s why we’re with R3G and not TEAM.” So if anybody’s got firsthand experience w/mv and with R3G to share, I think it will help more in this case.

    OK, I’ll come back with more for you soon. Thank you, again, for what you’re doing.

  35. outsider permalink
    April 22, 2011 10:54 pm

    SYT said:
    “Webelieved reminded me~we never had a site like Amthrax with big leaders sharing the truth that were in the ‘inner circle.’
    It sure would have made a difference to me.”

    And, of course, that is why you guys rock for doing this! 🙂

    And also:
    “If you could recognize when your family has a sliver of doubt . . .”

    That’s probably good advice. I have to have just the right moment, I think. Because of personalities and family dynamics, I will do better to wait for one of them to bring something up about it, too. (But I think that will be a short wait.) I imagine that there’s more room for doubt for them now, while they are still new to this, as opposed to later when they will have more invested (time, emotion, $) and built up more . . . layers of crap. Do you think that’s so?

    [In a way, I hope I didn’t miss that window of opportunity. I held out because I hoped/expected that they’d come to their senses and we’d all laugh about it. Not looking that funny any more.]

    “So, the support, understanding and knowing that they care, was the most important thing to help us through the ‘illusion from hell’.”

    OK, thanks. That is to be expected, I guess, but it’s good to hear/read.

    “Orrin and his fall guy . . .”

    I’ve been trying to follow the saga as I’ve read, but I lost track: Who was the fall guy? Was it one of the other ones who also went over to mv?

  36. aurora permalink
    April 23, 2011 5:00 am

    This commenter requested that her comments be removed from this site.

  37. April 23, 2011 6:56 am

    Aurora – Great thoughts. Your right, even when I was still in a couple of years ago, there was no “One Place” that you could go and get information like this on the Web! The truth was out there, only it was harder to find and broken up on various websites. I think Amthrax has created a meeting place, and a one stop shop for people to get the real goods on Team/Monavie. Great job everybody!

    Outsider – You represent the very target group that we are trying to reach, I think there are many more people out there that are reading, but not to the stage of posting….yet. I think the advice you have received here is sound. Wait for the right opportunity and plant seeds of doubt. A full on attack will not work…and their “leaders” will have prepared them for that. Just hang back and plant the seeds…they may take time to grow. For me….it wasn’t just “One Thing” that got me to see the light, it was something that progressed to the point that I couldn’t ignore it any further. The further away I got from the “System”… the more I was able to think for myself! Hope this helps.

  38. humiliated permalink
    April 23, 2011 7:49 am

    Outsider, I have been thinking about it and you may want to start with feigning interest in “the juice” by saying that you started to do some research on it, and you found out some interesting, PROVEABLE things. Say that you just did what anyone considering investing in any business would do an researched the products and company. Stay away from discussing the “philosophy” of TEAM and Monavie.

    The Juice Scam site has a lot of very useful, well documented and researched information that you could familiarize yourself with before having the discussion. Let them know that Monavie’s OWN studies show that a daily ‘serving’ contains less anti-oxidants than a normal, store bought apple.

    Then you could talk about the “doctors’ that Monavie has on staff doing the research for them, like the infamous Dr. Schauss. He bought his Phd from an on-line University and his “credentials” are laughable. Check this article out:

    There are now articles on the weight loss product “Reveal” on the Juice Scam site as well as that seems to be the flavor of the day.

    I am just thinking that if your family are really buying into the whole TEAM philosophy, showing them that if TEAM is knowingly buying into a bogus juice company might be a better way to chip away at TEAM’s credibility then to attack TEAM directly.

  39. April 23, 2011 9:28 am

    FYI – Outsider’s family is involved with R3Global, not TEAM. As with many MLM Training Organizations, they are similar, but there are there are some notable differences, chiefly in the more blatant promotion of Christianity and the “relaxed” clothing style of its membership. See more on my R3Global tag page.

  40. Speak Your Truth permalink
    April 23, 2011 10:27 am

    Orrin uses everyone for his ‘fall guys’ to do his dirty work and to speak on things he doesn’t want to be responsible for saying. I know from a very good source that he denied even saying he doesn’t teach ‘passive-residual income’ that is a bold-faced lie, but what’s new.
    So mostly I refer to the Policy Counsel; George Guzzardo, Chris Brady, Tim Marks, Bill Lewis, & Claude Hamilton those are the PC (although he uses everyone, they are just objects to him.)
    He doesn’t want to take responsiblity for what he does & says so he will get someone else to do it~’fall guys.’

    Sorry, can’t help you on the ‘inside’ of R3Global.
    We did go to one of his meetings (he wasn’t there) but they are different in 2 ways:
    They never did the pressure selling on ‘tools’ and stuck to the ‘juice’ and they are straight up front about the ‘Christianity.'(at least at the meeting)

    I will give them that, not that I agree for religion being ‘used’ for ‘business opprotunity/profit.’ I have seen it be ‘used & abused.’
    I respect everyone for what they believe and it is a lie & deceptive to bring people in on ‘profit’ when the real agenda is so they can fool themselves into thinking they are ‘bringing people to Christ/leading people to the truth.’ It is my opinion they have done more harm than good.

    But what little I saw from R3Global they were straight up and at least someone could decide then if it wasn’t for them.
    If I were still ‘blinded’, I would have been embarrassed for them for the amount of ‘tools’ they had at the meeting, only because it was the ‘main thing and pretty much the only thing when you build the Team.’
    I will say that Brig Hart grew-up in the Amway ‘system’ just like Orrin, so knowing what I know, it would all be the same to me.
    It is all about the money…period!

    aurora~So true, glad your here and your humor has helped me immensely! Thanks to you all for the support.

  41. April 23, 2011 11:47 am

    I would say R3Global focuses as much on the tools as TEAM does. They might have fewer tools, but they still hawk them religiously.

  42. Speak Your Truth permalink
    April 23, 2011 5:06 pm

    Amthax~ I am sure you are right, they are all the same.
    They must just approach it differently in their open meetings than the Team, at least the one I attended. There was also some direct very personal ‘cross-lining’ questions asked of us, that I found to be hilarious!
    Since that is a ‘cardnial rule’~apparently some from R3Global, don’t follow. LOL

  43. outsider permalink
    April 23, 2011 6:28 pm

    humiliated –
    I have also been thinking just what you said here: That the critical thing to discuss is probably the product, itself, i.e. the juice. First of all, they want to talk about juice because they still hope I might come around and buy some! Second of all, if the product has nothing to recommend it (not to mention, so much against it!) then there’s no need to even bring up the rest. I mean, if you get it that the product isn’t what you thought it was, then the rest of the stuff about mv as a “business opportunity” and/or R3G as an adjunct to that is all moot. Well, if logic is involved!

    And, yes, I have already read the js site in depth. It was perfect to find that people had already looked up all the excruciating details and it’s all there! That was exactly what I was looking for – the details to back up what was obvious to me, but apparently not obvious to them. (I actually found Amthrax thru’ the js site, and wasn’t really sure which one to start posting questions to.)

  44. outsider permalink
    April 23, 2011 7:27 pm

    dmricha and webelieved –
    Thanks for all your honesty and advice, too.

    Regarding this, which you both mentioned:
    “The reasons for joining TEAM are different for everyone. Find out what theirs is. Try to work at it from that angle. Try to figure out what they want from TEAM and show them other aways to get it.”

    Their initial reasons for involvement here (R3G, tho’) are going to be a combination of hoping to make even more $ and going along with the person who first introduced them to mv, and then to R3G. (And that person is new to mlm’s, himself.) But you are right – there’s a lot more going on.

    I’ve definitely got some thoughts on this, but I bet you guys have more!
    Is this part of it – the part where the ‘biz’ might have somewhat fulfilled something for you, or the other people that you know – something that you guys have found better ways to address now? This seems like it might be one of the hardest parts to face and work on for anyone. ? Maybe you can’t even think of it while you’re still “in”. ? Or did you? It seems like something that people would be better able to reflect on from a bit of a distance!

    dmricha said:
    “We also brought a lot of people in and felt guilty about leaving them behind. ”

    And I see where so many folks have mentioned similar sentiments. It’s stating the obvious, but I gotta throw in here that you certainly did more right by those people by getting yourselves free than you were doing by staying with them, of course!!

  45. outsider permalink
    April 23, 2011 7:43 pm

    One more thing. As I say, I found you guys right away when I was looking for info, so something is working there. 🙂
    Makes me wonder if any of you have already considered posting individual wiki entries for the tools companies. As you know, the entries for MonaVie, Dynamic Essentials, Royal Tongan Limu, and of course, Amway are right out there and were quick to find and confirm. I like the idea especially because, if I understand it correctly, these articles will all wind up crosslinking to each other *thru’ their common lawsuit connections* and the *names* involved in them.

  46. aurora permalink
    April 24, 2011 4:49 am

    This commenter requested that her comments be removed from this site.

  47. Speak Your Truth permalink
    April 24, 2011 9:31 am

    lol aurora, I am with you~I’m very slooowww at the techy stuff!

    outsider~ I just wanted you tell you how impressed I am at your tenacity to help your family. We need a whole world of people like you, who geniunely care about others!

    Happy Easter to you all!

  48. outsider permalink
    April 24, 2011 10:26 am

    Eeks, nothing to be impressed about as I’m all talk/no action thus far! I hope that what you guys have advised will help me to not blow it, and I will come back and let you know what happened at some point. Thanks for your wisdom, all.

  49. humiliated permalink
    April 24, 2011 10:55 am

    Outsider, you don’t know how great it is to hear that we are having some sort of a positive impact with the readers out there! I know it is hard to trust the internet but it is heartwarming to hear that people actually find something in our words that help them to trust us. Thanks for that!

    The wiki idea is fabulous and someone should definitely do that…won’t be me as I barely have the skills to get on this site to post! You should have seen me tried to navigate the JS site…let’s just say there was a lot of swearing involved.

    I am going to suggest one more thing to you. When you talk to your family, have the hard copy of the evidence there, like the studies & the wiki definition of MV. Discuss the juice & what you have learned about the business with them once and then drop it (they likely won’t react well but at least you have gotten into their heads) .

    I have been thinking about your fear of losing your relationship with these family members, but my belief is that they will continue to push this cult on you and your constant refusal to join will send a message to them, which will likely end up isolating them from you in any event. The more entrenched they become the less they associate with “outsiders” even if they are family members like yourself. At least this way you can show them that you respected them enough to look into the product by perhaps saying ” you know, I was really curious about this juice to see if it was something for me and I have looked into it” then you present them with facts . You are simply saying that the evidence shows that the juice is not value for the money, that it does NOT contain 8-12 servings of fruits and vegetables a day, is low in anti-oxidants etc. and you choose to have your nutritional needs met in a more economical (and in your mind you will be thinking…”AND FAR LESS CULTISH ) way. It won’t be an attack on their whole new “lifestyle” and although they may argue with your facts (I doubt it though, it is amazing how little the distributors actually KNOW about the product they are selling) they will now have the information in some level of their consciousness.

    Just thinking out loud and ultimately you know how best to handle it but I would love to hear how it turns out if you ever do have a discussion with them. It is also helpful for us to learn what different tactics work (or don’t) after people have put them into action.

    Your family really is very lucky to have someone who cares as much as you do and one day they will see that!

  50. Speak Your Truth permalink
    April 24, 2011 11:04 am

    outsider~ You are preparing for battle and spending time and effort to figure out your best approach. Then you will take action. That is commendable and more than most would do!

    You have to be prepared; believe me these guys have perfected their deception and ‘stop thinking/mind control techniques’ and their ‘genuine, loving, caring about you’ for DECADES. This is a very refined system of control, they never expected (at least the team) the high level leaders to oppose them with the truth. They weren’t and aren’t prepared for this!

    That is why they call the (us)- critics: ‘HATERS’ now, they never used that descriptive lie before. It is their last resort to try and get others to not believe those that KNOW who they really are and what they have really done!
    Just read the ‘defenders’, I have seen on JS site and here both this is the trend now, which is a guarenteed sign that is coming from the TOP!

    They HAD to find the strongest ‘convincing’ word to use, how else would it work against those that have been on the inside and know the truth?!
    ‘Us vs them’ is the game they play!

  51. switch permalink
    April 25, 2011 12:26 pm

    Here’s an interesting clip coming from the R3G side.

    Right around the 5:00 minute mark, a “judge” decides to take her uplines great advice and tell everyone she’s relying on the fruit punch rather than having surgery because of “feeling better” and no more cancer cells. Did you ever see Brig tell the lady to maybe reconsider the surgery/or think about getting a second opinion???? I didn’t think so.

    …..of course Brig doesn’t give these claims, he just holds the mic up proudly and follows up with comments like, “PRAISE GOD, THAT ALWAYS DOES MY HEART GOOD!” (cha-ching, cha-ching)

  52. switch permalink
    April 25, 2011 12:47 pm

    I guess that leads me to say that I would have to listen to my well trained doctor rather than play the game of russian roulette.

  53. outsider permalink
    May 20, 2011 4:40 pm

    Hi, all,
    I wanted to follow up and let you all know that I took the advice and opinions offered here to heart and tried as gently as possible to present to my newbie mv family members my concerns re: their new venture. It was an awkward and unpleasant conversation, but it ended as well as it could, as they recognized that I have no agenda beyond genuine concern. So, I have “planted the seed” and it now remains to be seen what they will decide to do.

    humiliated had said:
    “I have been thinking about your fear of losing your relationship with these family members, but my belief is that they will continue to push this cult on you and your constant refusal to join will send a message to them, which will likely end up isolating them from you in any event. The more entrenched they become the less they associate with “outsiders” even if they are family members like yourself.”
    And that makes sense. Causing offense was my biggest reason for not speaking up immediately.

    humiliated also said:
    “At least this way you can show them that you respected them enough to look into the product by perhaps saying ” you know, I was really curious about this juice to see if it was something for me and I have looked into it” then you present them with facts .”

    And that actually was about how I brought it up. Incidentally, they appeared the most shocked by the Royal Tongan Limu fiasco (which they’d never heard a peep about), and by the fact that mv can be had so cheaply and easily on ebay (which they had been unequivocally told could not happen! Don’t know why they hadn’t checked that out for themselves. ?).

    Any way, thanks, again. I appreciated the input on how to go about this delicately!

  54. Speak Your Truth permalink
    May 20, 2011 4:52 pm

    Glad it went well for you outsider, continued success.

  55. humiliated permalink
    May 21, 2011 6:57 am

    Outsider, I think that went as well as it could considering the circumstances.

    I am not surprised they didn’t know about Royal Tongan Juice etc. but I think this is by virtue of the fact that they were brought in (most likely) by people that they trusted, so likely wouldn’t even think to question any of it. At least you showed them that there is information out there , should they want to access it. They will get the canned response if they confront their up-line with any of their questions, and your family will probably “buy it” but at least they are asking the questions. And now, we hurry up an wait.

    I am really proud of you for confronting the situation they way that you did and hopefully it will eventually come to the resolution that you hope (well, we ALL) for. Best case scenario is that MonaVie collapses before they lose too much time, too much money and too many relationships.

  56. switch permalink
    May 22, 2011 6:33 am

    NOT SURPRISED AT ALL by them not knowing about Royal Tongan Limu. Goes to show you how well trained they are by telling their followers not to read the “negative” on the web.

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