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Orrin Woodward Never Wants You To Stop Paying Him

March 11, 2011

Orrin Woodward and members of his Policy Council are having a Men’s Leadership Meeting in Lansing, Michigan this weekend. The following people will be speaking at the event: Orrin Woodward, Chris Brady, Bill Lewis, Wayne MacNamara and Kirk Birtles. One of the topics that caught my eye was a presentation entitled, You Can’t Commoditize Community.1

What’s this speech all about? Is Orrin Woodward going to justify why he charges so much and so frequently for his monthly tools, books and function tickets? Is he going to explain why he keeps going to his distributors to ask/scam them of more and more of their money?

Look, I’m all for someone making a buck in this life, but I don’t think you should continually do it off the backs of the people that support you. And, if do you ask your community to keep giving you money, you had better offer them something in return. People typically join TEAM and MonaVie to make money. What percentage of people are succeeding in that respect, making a net profit at the end of each month? Don’t change the subject by saying, “Well, they are leading better lives now.” That’s deflecting the fact that people are losing money in this venture month after month.

1 I found it funny that a couple of lines below, the web page states “Admission is $10.00 per person.”

83 Comments leave one →
  1. TOD permalink
    March 11, 2011 12:05 pm

    My whole office is going to a Get Motivated seminar in Grand Rapids on April 14th. I know it’s not PC members on team speaking, but we are going to see a few people you may have heard of. Rudy Guiliani, Terry Bradshaw, John Walsh, Dr. Robert Schuller, Colin Powell, Lou Holtz and more. There may be an outside chance that I get something out of it. Anybody want to give me some objections?

  2. TOD permalink
    March 11, 2011 12:15 pm

    By the way, the whole office is going for $10.

  3. March 12, 2011 11:17 am

    If all these functions are so vital and will help you succeed, then by default Orrin should be putting these on for free, so that he makes money when you make money.

    Unless, of course, he’s only making money by you paying to attend his meetings…..

  4. Speak Your Truth permalink
    March 12, 2011 1:22 pm

    I have been to the “Get Motivated” seminar and bought Tamara Lowe’s book Get Motivated, she has an awesome story and you would never guess it when you see the “changed” Tamara. 20 years of motivational expert and says they have produced the “largest business seminars in the world”, can everyone claim this? LOL, Just wondering.
    I haven’t finished the book, because I had to lay down all the “motivational” stuff for awhile to come back to earth but so far what I read it’s good. She talks about the DNA of a uniques motivational matrix, based on 8 year study of 10,000 people. I liked it somewhat but to much similarities and we got to go for $10 through a “work related” offer.
    I will tell you it is the same though as all the rest they have experts there and they “promote” not to the extreme of what the Team does, but I bet Orrin would see her as an “enemy” or “competitor” that would take away from the money funneling into his pocket. Has he ever suggested you went to this Get Motivated Seminar, Lmao!

  5. Rebekah permalink
    March 12, 2011 3:47 pm

    Community might be commoditized, but juice sure can! Woodward knows it’s hard out there to sell $40 juice that’s a cheap commodity now, so he’s doing all he knows how to do: selling more tools! If he’s willing to talk about how his community cannot be commoditized, he needs to be honest with people and mention that their product IS commoditized….and if that’s the case, why does he insist that everyone stay on autoship??? Anyone? This is an easy one….

  6. Speak Your Truth permalink
    March 12, 2011 7:30 pm

    Great question!
    Welcome, hope you find the comments on here informative, and I am sure all can learn from you too.
    “Selling more tools!”~ I think you will find that everyone on here contributed to the “riches” of the “Policy Counsel”, (even some made $ themselves, not in comparison to the amount spent over many years though) but the experience of those on here would be cumulatively; decades!
    Have you been with Team long?

    March 13, 2011 5:32 pm

    Just saw a comment over on woodward’s blog about how great men’s leadership was and how the individual is so fired up to be one of the 36 men woodward is asking for to step up! So is that what it is going to take now? 36 men maybe to hit Black Diamond to put the Team at 1 million people? Ya right. We heard that same B.S. 3 years ago. “Who is going to stand up and take control of your destiny???” More like, “Who is going to line my pockets with more tool money???” Things never change.

  8. March 13, 2011 10:28 pm

    haha, that is great!

    Once a check point racer – What is your story? How long were you with team?

  9. Speak Your Truth permalink
    March 14, 2011 6:40 am

    @Once a checkpoint racer
    BS yep, they have been saying the “million people thing” since at least 2003. And from what we know from commenters on here they went from 20,000 to now around 5,000 attending majors? Such Growth! At this rate they will be 1 million LEAVING the “Team- Life Coaching”, numbers don’t lie. Maybe they want it to sounds better, allot like their bogus “GURU Self-Awarded/Self-Promoted Status”. Only 36, hmm…how many years will this take? They will never make it to a million. Orrin himself knows this, he said one time talking to us ” when I realized I wasn’t going to make it to 1 million ( about Amway, blah, blah, blah “) and what is different now? But never mind me, we will let “time prove them right?”

  10. UnKnown permalink
    March 14, 2011 11:27 am

    Monthly seminar x2 tickets = $60, x12 months = $720 per year
    Weekly opens x2 tickets = $10, x 4 weeks/month = $40, x 12 months = $480 per year
    Major Seminars x2 tickets = $180, x 4 per year = $720 per year
    Men’s leadership = ???
    Women’s leadership = ???
    Special ‘Leadership’ meetings = ???

    JUST on seminars = $2,000 per year/ couple

    X 5000 Couples = $10,000,000 MILLION DOLLARS PER YEAR!!!!! Divided by the small number of couples at Profit Sharing levels.

    This is the real business.

  11. aurora permalink
    March 14, 2011 2:17 pm

    This commenter requested that her comments be removed from this site.

  12. March 14, 2011 2:41 pm

    One of the 36?

    Jeeze! They are starting to sound like Jehovah’s Witnesses!

    What a joke Woodward and Brady are. Anyone stupid enough to buy into their ego trips deserve to go broke.

  13. TOD permalink
    March 14, 2011 3:09 pm

    Let it go. We all did the same type of junk.
    Forgive yourself, forget it and move on.

    I appreciate your comments, but no one deserves to go broke. It sounds stupid, but subtle techniques used by Brady and the other guy are hard to fight off because you are typically brought in by someone that you know and trust. You listen to some CD’s, attend an open, get fired up at a seminar and slowly get hooked. Call me weak minded or whatever, but I am glad to be out and do not wish ill on anyone still in. Just hoping they all wake up and smell the negative cash flow.

    March 14, 2011 3:57 pm

    I was with Team for about 3 years. Worked very close with a current PC member for most of that time since my sponsor quit on me. I was pretty close to the top of that PC members 6th leg and he kind of took me under his wing. Spent a year and a half in quixtar, 9 months waiting to become the “walmart of the internet”, and the rest of my time in MV. How could someone who followed the system, went to everything, and got personally mentored by a PC member not make it???? I will tell you in my entire time in the Biz I only saw 2 people retire. And I think they are back working jobs now. Out of all the people I came across, that was it?? Worked with many professional, intelligent, and highly motivated individuals. It finally hit me that success was pretty much impossible. I remember a men’s leadership I was at right after we joined MV… Orrin gave the same speech about the 36 men who would “stand up and lead”. Those men would all get to own a piece of “Team Island”. What I cannot believe is that the cycle just keeps on going and never ends. Activity on this blog is beginning to explode and I hope it makes a difference to people researching the “opportunity”. For those people wondering if the should get in… Run away! Fast!

  15. Reality Check permalink
    March 14, 2011 4:57 pm

    They are not going to a million, they are going through a million.

  16. March 14, 2011 7:22 pm

    The title of this blog really hit home for me. I remember each monthly seminar I went to, right before the break for supper, leaders would introduce new CDs, Packs, or books, and urge us to buy the latest stuff, “so make sure you get to that tool room and get these cd’s” type thing. You spend $25-$30 per ticket to go there, only to be advertised to buy more CDs! LOL

  17. March 14, 2011 7:24 pm

    Ach, why a flight to another state/province for a DINNER? 😮 I think Skype conferencing calling does a fine enough job for that! LOL

  18. March 14, 2011 7:33 pm

    Come to think of, it, nothing was ever free, except for the prospect’s very first open meeting. But there was absolutely NOTHING ELSE WHATSOEVER that was free, no CDs, no discounts for bulk orders, no sales, nothing reduced, and this is the only company I’ve ever come across that doesn’t cut down on their pricing or doesn’t give discounts on bulk orders or have any sales. I would also include Monavie, but they do give discounts on bulk orders. Even Claude Hamilton, the PC guy that ran our team, told us not to give our prospect tasting parties, because it’s not about the product, it’s about the business opporunity.


    Any reputable business would have some free stuff or sales, and be reasonable, if they want to please the customer!

  19. March 14, 2011 7:38 pm

    Hey, at least the JWs are more generous, they got 144,000 getting lucky instead of a measly 36! 😉

  20. Jeff permalink
    March 15, 2011 6:54 am


    What group were you in under Claude if you don’t mind me asking? I was also part of Claude’s group – under Joce & Cynthia Dionne from Moncton.
    Was it you who was wondering if Alex & Leighann Nickerson were still involved? Because the answer is yes – in fact they are the speakers for the Halifax seminar in April.

  21. March 15, 2011 9:19 am

    Ach, Jeff now I’m EMBARRASSED! LOL! I think Karen something, not sure of her last name. I know my upline’s upline worked with Hamilton directly as well. Karen and James, but I never did bother finding out their last names, to be honest. All I wanted to do is to make some money. I do know that Karen and James did make it to Round Table at one time, then slid back because James had to work, or so my upline told me.

    Yep, that was me about that Alex character, he’s apparently still Ruby last I checked on the MV website, I thought he would be Emerald by now, since it was a full year after I left.

  22. Crystal permalink
    March 15, 2011 7:00 pm

    This is just an opinion. Not based on ‘facts’ but simply an opinion.

    TOTAL TICKETS sold in January 2010 for the ENTIRE US TEAM – all 52 States was 9,000 tickets. And in December 2010 the TOTAL TICKETS sold for the ENTIRE US TEAM – all 52 states was 8,800 tickets. At this rate the Team will be desolved in 44 years.

    I love how CB posts on the Team website today: “The business is exploding! And not a small uptick but huge numbers!!”

    Does anyone still plugged into the meetings notice this? IS this reality or is this guy trying to pump up his readers to counter act the truth??? Thoughts to ponder.

  23. March 15, 2011 9:59 pm

    @Crystal – Where are you getting these numbers from, if it’s only opinion?

  24. March 16, 2011 7:40 am

    Yeah, I was wondering the same thing. It seems like their monthly seminar count would be higher than 8,800. If they are putting 6,000 people in seats at a major (that is another rough estimate from people on this blog), my guess is that they would probably be around 12,000 tickets sold for the monthly seminars. Other people can correct my ‘guesstimate’ if you think I am off, but I believe most people’s teams would double their major ticket count.

  25. March 16, 2011 7:41 am

    Either way, far from a million.

  26. TOD permalink
    March 16, 2011 8:14 am

    I would have to assume the monthly seminar count would be 2x to 2.5x the major ticket count. Don’t forget that a lot of mid-level leaders get stuck with extra tickets at a monthly seminar as well. At least that was my experience.

  27. TOD permalink
    March 16, 2011 8:17 am

    A mere 987,000 people short of a million, but you just wait! The business is imploding, uh… I mean…. exploding. You just wait ‘haters’.

  28. I Quit ( and glad I Did) permalink
    March 16, 2011 8:20 am

    If more people would buy more tools to spread to the masses they’d get there faster for sure! GO TEAM GO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  29. March 16, 2011 8:24 am


  30. Crystal permalink
    March 16, 2011 9:20 am

    When was the major seminar in the fall of 2010? (September or October??) Anyone remember?

  31. March 16, 2011 9:53 am

    @Crystal – You still can go to the TEAM calendar and go back in time to find details on the seminars. I see Leadership conventions the weekends of 9/17-9/19 and 9/24-9/27 in Milwaukee and Saint John respectively. There was also a Men’s Leadership on 10/15 in Mechanicsburg, PA.

  32. Speak Your Truth permalink
    March 16, 2011 10:11 am

    @TOD, I Quit, Will
    You folks are killing me, Lol!!!!

  33. March 16, 2011 10:44 am

    If you read my post On The Way To One Million, you’ll see Orrin was looking for 1000 people to lead 1000 people a year ago. This year, I guess he’s lowered his goal somewhat and is looking for just 36 people.

    Somehow, I get the feeling that he’ll be looking for a million people for a long, long time.

  34. TOD permalink
    March 16, 2011 11:09 am

    I always heard on CD’s that it was easier to give birth, than to raise the dead. Why doesn’t the top guy in Team go find 36 new people himself and help them each get 27,778 people and voila! 1 million people! I will tell you why, because he can’t. No one can. It is not possible, but the very idea that a million people is possible will keep enough people in to keep the PC’s and some of the RT’s paid and their lifestyles in tact.

  35. TOD permalink
    March 16, 2011 11:12 am

    See, you haters are starting to make me doubt a million is possible. Hold on, where is that top 50?

    Must… listen… to …. more….CD’s….

    Must… warn… others… of… negative… blog…

  36. March 16, 2011 11:16 am

    Where is the LIKE button???

  37. I Quit ( and glad I Did) permalink
    March 16, 2011 11:41 am

    you can do it (no you can’t) you can do it (no you can’t) you can do it (no you can’t) you can do it (no you can’t) you can do it (no you can’t)
    Mr. Subliminal strikes again!!

  38. Speak Your Truth permalink
    March 16, 2011 1:17 pm

    Holy Crap I’m glad you peoples are back, Lmao!!!!

  39. TOD permalink
    March 16, 2011 1:31 pm

    See, that is the genius of Brady. The vision that he has laid out for the Team and his ability to use humor also really helps people stick around. It increases the entertainment value and allows the same type of information to be retold just with a different joke each time. And people just keep paying. Pretty Amazing, huh?

  40. TOD permalink
    March 16, 2011 1:34 pm

    Hey Will, I can put you on standing order ‘like’ button and change the color of the text every month. All the serious leaders are on it.

  41. TOD permalink
    March 16, 2011 1:41 pm

    In fact, if you subscribe to my standing order ‘like’ button, I will be having a special BBQ at my spanish mansion on 2 lakes (that I paid cash for). Just bring your own meat, dish to pass, drinks, MV energy drinks, chair, and snacks. I will let you drive/fly here to Ohio and you can have lunch with everyone else on standing order ‘like’ button. If you stay on for 12 straight months, you become a founders standing order ‘like’ button subscriber and you can fetch all my stuff and drive me around… errrrr, I mean host me at the next major. Welcome to leadership Will. By the way, love ya buddy.

  42. March 16, 2011 1:58 pm

    I just thought of something…you know how Woodward and Brady are always talking about retirement and spending time with family and having all this free time? Looks like even those guys are still working their arses off to take our money!

  43. Speak Your Truth permalink
    March 16, 2011 1:59 pm

    Our experience; it was diffi”CULT” and it got real old, and expensive paying for that humor!
    I perfer you to tell it, LOL

  44. Former Gold permalink
    March 16, 2011 5:15 pm

    FYI: TEAM launching new company at July Major….Focusing on community not products, and get this the company will be called “LIFE”…..

  45. March 16, 2011 5:48 pm

    We’re seen rumblings of this in earlier posts and comments. Do you have any more details? Who are the target customers? What’s the product (you have to have a product, after all)?

  46. TOD permalink
    March 16, 2011 5:49 pm

    L eadership
    I ncome
    F orever and

  47. TOD permalink
    March 16, 2011 5:51 pm

    L ies
    I nspiring
    F eeble
    E ndeavors?

  48. TOD permalink
    March 16, 2011 5:51 pm

    Don’t leave me hanging Former Gold, I need more info.

  49. Vogel permalink
    March 16, 2011 6:21 pm

    Oooo ooo…do a haiku tribute to Orrin next. 🙂

  50. Speak Your Truth permalink
    March 16, 2011 6:21 pm

    @Former Gold
    Oh how predictable! Another effort to eliminate the truth when people search out their name. This will be the 3rd name change. Wonder how long they will run and hide from the truth?
    Team of Destiny~Amway
    Team~Quixtar and Monavie
    Now Life
    So predictable!

  51. March 16, 2011 6:22 pm

    The way TEAM operates, the targeted customers would be anyone who we can squeeze a phone number out of. No difference, really, since it’s going to be changed to leadership life stuff, I would imagine it’ll be mainly professional-type people, people who are interested in leadership skills.

    Ya, Former Gold, I would like to know as well. I know this is right up my former upline’s alley, because she’s right into all that leadership training stuff. She joined TEAM almost year before they hooked up with Monavie, if I remember her saying correctly, and she said she was attracted to it because of the leadership training.


    This sucks, Hubby has known her for 20 years, me 10, I am concerned, she’s going to be hurt big time, especially if they don’t drop their male chauvinistic teachings. I don’t know how they feel about black people, though.

  52. Speak Your Truth permalink
    March 16, 2011 6:25 pm


  53. March 16, 2011 6:27 pm

    PS, I don’t mean any disrespect against any visible minority groups, it’s just that I remember reading in Merchants of Deception how one of the leaders in a tools business in Amway displayed such racist and chauvinistic attitudes, but then again, I never knew what Woodward’s opinion was, though.

  54. Speak Your Truth permalink
    March 16, 2011 6:30 pm

    L ~losing

  55. Speak Your Truth permalink
    March 16, 2011 6:36 pm

    Lmao! Seriously, I can’t stop laughing, but the saddest thing is, it is so right on!

  56. March 16, 2011 7:29 pm

    This is hysterical!! SSDD baby.

    AND throwing in the signature Orrin Woodward ‘Love you buddy’…PRICELESS!!

  57. Speak Your Truth permalink
    March 16, 2011 7:30 pm

    No worries,I understood what you were saying.
    They will not prosper believe me, they have broken God’s laws, and damaged too many lives; there is no escaping this! Their schemes will catch them. I think there are other plans and people will find them out!
    All good things (even though it isn’t good) as they say, must come to an end!

  58. March 16, 2011 7:30 pm

    On a serious note….How pathetic it is that you are encouraged by the leaders to essentially ‘buy your friends.’ Does anyone in the business not see this?

    Quick!!!!!!! Spend 150pv and you can qualify to come to my house for a 150pv party where we can share stories about personal growth and struggle. GAG

    I remember when Orrin canceled PV parties and he got up on stage blasting them making fun of people that would talk and share from their hearts at these meetings (which he encouraged). He would say ‘People say they are going Diamond and going to get it done and I was all fired up, then next month they were at the same level they were the month before and I realized they were all LYING!!’ REALLY? That is what you have to say after you financially raped everyone into dropping $500 worth of toilet paper to be your friend for an afternoon. Words cannot begin to described the anger I feel here.

  59. Speak Your Truth permalink
    March 16, 2011 7:46 pm

    The audacity! That is just criminal to me. He must have need to buy something new to show off to those who had to EARN their way to his house. I’ve said this before but who the hell makes you EARN your way to their “friends” house or to spend time with him?
    We would have rather spent it with our family, it was boring and just gave him another higher tone in his EGO. I remember going to his Floridia house and it was sit in a circle to listen to his BS cult leaders do this, get on his boat to show off some more. (I quit listening way before then,) What an EGO maniac! He seriously needs to be humbled in a severe way! Can’t wait for the laws of nature to kick in!

  60. March 16, 2011 7:48 pm

    These guys are never with their families. They do a photo-op with their kids when they go on vacations, however, they have nannies, teachers, sitters, and other friends who watch and raise their kids for them. Pretty sad really.

  61. Speak Your Truth permalink
    March 16, 2011 8:28 pm

    Everyone notices this, people aren’t stupid. People watch recognition and see beyond the hype. We aren’t even in anymore and can tell you it is the same as it has always been. It’s always exploding according to them. Their deceptive, hyped-up garbage hasn’t change an iota. Every person knows you have ups and downs in real buisness, it can’t always be exploding, especially if you take a look at the list of the leaders that left because of their unethical and immoral methods & practices from the Policy Counsel and you are suppose to take their word for anything? It took them years to build for Orrin and his pawns to steal what was left of their teams. This is what they call “Positive” speaking, I call it flat out deception and lies. Alls they have to do is get the “REAL” numbers from the office “SOLD” tickets the way a legitimate business would do and even then this would still not be accurate as butts in seats, it would be more trustworthy than them just spouting their blatant puffed up “it’s exploding”, without the proof. There is a lot of leaders who buy tickets they never sell or give away just to get the recognition to pretend they are growing and those give away tickets, people don’t show up because they never wanted to come in the first place. I wouldn’t even believe them unless I saw the numbers from the printout. If you are an observer you know just by being there how exagerated this can be. There is a whole bunch of people paying for these tickets that were left from leaders that were never on the Team that came from others that built for years, why don’t they share them numbers? Then you would see what is really on the team. If you stop listening to what they say and become an observer you will see through it all!

  62. TOD permalink
    March 16, 2011 10:13 pm

    Quitters’ Haiku:

    You are a winner!
    Now you will not buy the juice
    Never did like you much…

    “I thought I was supposed to make money” Haiku:

    Changing the culture
    Helping folks get rich and free
    Bring back my money

  63. TOD permalink
    March 16, 2011 10:15 pm

    That is the best one yet.

  64. Crystal permalink
    March 17, 2011 10:57 am

    What is really means is:

    L – Living
    I – Intentionally
    F – For
    E – Excellance

  65. I Quit ( and glad I Did) permalink
    March 17, 2011 11:57 am


  66. Speak Your Truth permalink
    March 17, 2011 12:08 pm

    I Quit

  67. March 17, 2011 12:10 pm

    How about Orrin Woodward’s LIFE is a LIE ?

  68. TOD permalink
    March 17, 2011 3:57 pm

    Why don’t they call the new business what it really is…. CASH

  69. switch permalink
    March 17, 2011 4:57 pm

    L- Lying
    I- Into
    F- (I’ll let you fill in the blank here)
    E- Enternity

    *What is “LIFE” without the F?…….LIE!

    Must be proud to be a LIFER!

  70. Dorothy permalink
    March 17, 2011 6:14 pm

    This commenter requested that her comments be removed from this site.

  71. Speak Your Truth permalink
    March 17, 2011 7:49 pm

    Oh Dorothy
    Thx for the histerical laugh!


  72. TOD permalink
    March 18, 2011 5:55 am

    I thinks it’s ironic that standing order leadership is called SOL.

  73. March 18, 2011 10:32 am

    We should start a thread on Orrin-isms

    This line is classic:

    Love you buddy

    Also, who can forget:

    Thanks for all you do

    These little pats on the back, and words of affirmation are a sure way to keep people drooling over Orrin. I admit that these guys are good at getting you to believe that their hearts are sincere and that they truly care for you as a friend.

  74. OWesladouche permalink
    March 19, 2011 12:05 am

    Don’t ya think!? 🙂

  75. Dorothy permalink
    March 18, 2011 11:08 pm

    This commenter requested that her comments be removed from this site.

  76. Speak Your Truth permalink
    March 19, 2011 6:20 am

    LOL, You are right, its the same one!
    I have a question though on the line:
    I gotta go. See ya bud.
    Do they want you repeating that when you are talking to a female, lmao!

  77. CloserThanUThink permalink
    March 19, 2011 1:19 pm

    I hated that script. Always felt like I was deceiving the other person. Oh, wait, that’s the point, isn’t it?!!! So glad not to be associated with TEAM anymore.

  78. Speak Your Truth permalink
    March 19, 2011 4:00 pm

    I love the name, welcome to the unplugged!

  79. CloserThanUThink permalink
    March 19, 2011 5:03 pm

    Speak Your Truth
    Thanks for the warm welcome. I have been following this site (as well as others) for over a year now and finally felt moved to get off the sidelines and contribute. I thought the name was quite fitting – I remember hearing it at the first open that I attended (over 10 years ago now), and it stuck in my head. Little did I know that it was referring to indebtedness and not financial freedom.

  80. Speak Your Truth permalink
    March 19, 2011 7:46 pm

    Hey~Closer what is your story? Got in 10 years ago?

  81. March 19, 2011 8:04 pm

    I remember this script (or similar) especially the 3 C’s and the Robert Kiyosaki lines. It’s in the TEAM textbook. To be honest, it’s unethical. It doesn’t let the other person say no, unless they’re very outspoken and not afraid to tell the caller to back off!

  82. March 19, 2011 8:07 pm

    I’m glad you stepped out of TEAM as well, it must’ve taken a lot of courage to put your foot down and finally say no.

  83. CloserThanUThink permalink
    March 20, 2011 3:37 pm

    Webelieved – Yes, lots of laughs and much healing. It is refreshing to know that you are not alone in seeing this business for what it is. I left after the lawsuit was filed accusing A/Q of being an illegal pyramid. How funny since for years they claimed on stage and from tape/CD that it wasn’t. Their integrity was shot right there for me. I have not had any contact with anyone from TEAM since then, so I always seemed on an island in my belief (with the exception of my supporting wife who held the same belief as I). Your story really moved me, and I pray for your continued healing and strength.

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