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MLM Punisher on the Cost of Living Intentionally For Excellence

April 28, 2011
Welcome! You’ve probably come to this page because you’re looking for information on L.I.F.E, or Living Intentionally For Excellence. Here’s a quick primer before we get into the meat of this post. For more in-depth facts and questions that you need to know about LIFE, click here.

LIFE is a new multi-level marketing (MLM) business created by TEAM, a training organization for MLM businesses. The TEAM leadership had its beginnings with the granddaddy of MLMs, Amway (called Quixtar in the late 90s and 2000s). They were terminated and expelled from Amway in 2007 and began working with an MLM juice company called MonaVie in 2008.

TEAM is run by Orrin Woodward, a self-proclaimed Top 10 Leadership Guru. He is a very polarizing figure in the MLM world. He has a cadre of critics comprised of former TEAM members (with nearly 1000 comments). Supporters idolize him, with some calling him the Greatest American of this Day, while others see him as a cult leader.

LIFE’s business is to sell tools and materials to better one’s life in the area of 8F’s: Fitness, Finances, Family, Friends, Faith, Freedom, Fun, and Following. It’s highly debatable if the TEAM/LIFE leaders are even qualified to talk about these topics. As with most MLM businesses, the products will be marked up for retail and profit sharing purposes. In simple terms, you sign up one person who signs up another person, who does the same, and you will get a cut of everyone’s volume. The people at the top, namely Orrin Woodward and members of his Policy Council, will invariably remain at the top and make the most money.

In order for you to become the LIFE member that they want you to become, you will need to “invest” in yourself and your business. This is what this post deals with. A longtime former member of TEAM, MLM Punisher was all-in with TEAM’s leadership program. He’ll describe how he ended up spending $500/month on TEAM tools in the hopes of making it and getting rich.

This is precisely what you will be asked to do if you join TEAM with the intention of building a LIFE business. While you may not spend $500/month, you will be spending hundreds of dollars a month. You will find that much of their material is recycled from either (1) previous talks or (2) free materials on the web. My recommendation? Save money and don’t get involved.

The MLM Punisher has a good breakdown on what it costs today to be a member of TEAM and to live intentionally for excellence. Read his post for the full details, but check out how hardcore he was for six years:

“Leadership” Package = $130.95
Two Standing order tickets – $50
DVD of the month – $10
Leadership Book of the Month – $15
All Grace Outreach Pack – $21
Website Per Month – $19.95
Two Cases of Purple Juice – $250 (approx after shipping)
Total – $496.90 (plus tax & shipping)

That’s $500 at least….every month! Plus $180 every fourth month for a Major Leadership! This is not including my gas, food, extra CD’s for handing out to prospects, the weekly $5 fee for open meetings (add another $5 to that if your married), and last but not least…..what is YOUR TIME worth? I could rant on, and on here….but I’ll let the numbers speak for themselves. These numbers are accurate according to the Team website as of April 25th 2011. I would recommend if you know anyone being prospected by Team, and they are not being told the facts…..refer them to this post! The facts are here for all to see…..and it’s not pretty!

TEAM proponents will say that these monthly costs pale in comparison to the monthly expenditures for a traditional business. OK, but how much money are they making each month after expenses? Are the profits — if there are any to begin with — worth the time and effort? At the end of the day, distributors have to answer this question honestly to themselves.

Update May 2, 2011: Anna Banana provides her thoughts on pricing and expenses on her blog Married to an Ambot.

Read more about TEAM, LIFE, and its leaders by following these links:

For those still on the fence about TEAM/LIFE, go read both positive and critical viewpoints on TEAM. Unlike TEAM/LIFE supporters, we want you to see both sides of the story so you can make your own conclusion.

699 Comments leave one →
  1. April 28, 2011 6:20 pm

    Dear MLM Punisher,

    Your expenses calculation is crystal clear, but can you also give an estimate what your average income was each month in the time you were convinced that is was not a scam, and how many hours you had to work for that, including the times you were obliged to go to meetings. The reason I ask is that I think that a lot of people (even in general) do not include the small costs they are making. It is probably from their household money, and I am quite certain they do not keep not track of these expenses, so they do not “miss” it.

    I have an example which I hope you can fill out for the MLM business as well.

    The cleaning or mowing service

    Btw I appreciate these kind of services very much, it is just an example to compare the effort that MLM people have to do to earn the same amount of money each month, if even possible.

    Say, you want to earn a 700 dollars extra each month by offering a cleaning or mowing service, and you want to generate an income for yourself of about 25 dollars an hour, or 25 dollars for mowing one lawn (30 minutes for each lawn, this is not absurd, I have heard that people pay that amount of money). You can work about 10 hours max each week (extra next to your regular job, and family activities). Your cleaning customers want you to come every weeks for two hours, so you need 4 clients, you also need 4 clients for the mowing service (a total of 10 hours for 300 dollars each week).

    This way you can earn about 1300 dollars a month. Probably you will not have a 100% customer occupation rate so average your maximum gross income will be around 1000 dollars (30% less). After deduction of gas expenses, the loan for the grass mower equipment, and taxes (you’ll want to do it the legal way), you’ll still end up with about 700 dollars each month extra.

    What does the MLM business wo(man) has to do to earn this average 700 dollars a month? At least they need to have a gross income of 1300 dollars each month to cover the expenses you mentioned in your article. Is it even possible to make this money in 10 hours? And if it is how many clients do you need to have (read people below you in the pyramid)? And how many people are reaching that level in which time frame (you are only allowed to work 10 hours each week).



  2. April 28, 2011 8:17 pm

    Me – Alright… well let’s start with the fact that the scope of your question is absolutely huge, and would take several blog posts to even begin to break that down for you! What I will do though is attempt to touch on the basic theme of your post.

    In the “mowing or cleaning” business you used in your example, there was a very clear time for money value given by you ($25 – $50 an hour). You see, in the type of business you talk about, it is clear what your time is “worth”. Day one….you can go out, “invest” in your equipment, and go out expecting to make your stated amount per hour. MLM (at least Team) is the complete opposite of this. You are expected to “invest” in “Tools” right out of the gate, with a complete unknown ahead of you! Everybody told me that if I was a good student, and did everything they told me, I would be profitable. So I hit it hard. 10 hours a week? Don’t make me laugh! I was working this thing 6-7 days a week! I would work my job, come home and change, and then hit the road until the wee hours in the morning (depending on where I had to travel to that night). I made next to nothing for probably the first 6 months. Then I started to make some money…enough to cover my expenses? No… not even close. I did however become profitable….in about year four…or as my accountant put it “Hey…you actually made money this year”. Take that as in my first three years…. after expenses I was reporting a loss to the government. Alas…due to many reasons…some mine…others out my control (read my post “It’s not your business”), I was never in the black again. What was I making per hour even at my peek…..I’m sure it would make us both cry if I worked that out on paper! Let’s just leave it at…..I should have started a mowing company instead!

    If you only knew how FEW people ever break even in this “business”, let alone make money….you would run screaming for the door. In regards to your 10 hour a week time restraint question… many people could make $700 a month…after expenses… only 10 hours a week invested? I’m pretty sure most of the posters on this blog would back me in saying NO CHANCE!

  3. TOD permalink
    April 29, 2011 4:59 am

    What is Allgrace Outreach Pack? What happened to the ERM CD and book?

  4. April 29, 2011 5:23 am

    Webelieved – You nailed it! That’s a pretty good list of “small things” that add up to a lot more of your time! It was always promoted from stage that all it took to build was four Tuesdays, and a Saturday a month! Yeah right! If you were doing everything they promoted (which as a good leader… I was), your whole life became Team. 24/7! Really good post Webelieved!

    Tod – The All Grace Outreach Pack is the same thing the ERM series was…. one CD and a Book a month. They’ve just changed the name. I wonder why they did that? I read somewhere on this blog that Pastor Dickie left Team. Maybe they changed the name after he left?

  5. Speak Your Truth permalink
    April 29, 2011 8:08 am

    LOL~ Must be one of the PC-(unqualified non-pastors) giving their ‘sermons’ from the Majors? Could even be the PC- who doesn’t even attend church?!
    Or perhaps it’s Orrin’s New Church/ Pastor? (new breeding ground for prospects). Since he doesn’t have previous Mentor/Pastor, who mysteriously isn’t his Mentor/Pastor/Friend anymore.
    Wonder why that is after years of being his Mentor, Pastor, and Friend? Something seems too familiar! How does he explain this?
    Should be a Huge Clue!
    Would be interesting to see who is giving the ‘message!’
    Another name change? Hmm..I am seeing a pattern!

  6. Speak Your Truth permalink
    April 29, 2011 9:29 am

    Amthrax; MLM~Great Article!
    It is almost nearly impossible, even for the strongest Melancholy to figure out how much ‘time & money’ is spent. It is as you said 24/7 for the ‘real’ leaders without question.

    It is alarming and should be a WAKE up call to anyone who see’s this post in black & white! Who has $500 per month to throw away on just the ‘given’ expenses you have laid out? That won’t even begin to get to the break even point after 4 years? I believe that would be very common and building today even grimmer!(With the Truth on the internet~LOL)

    It takes that long to build momentum and get enough Leaders helping to try and put people in faster than they drop out!

    You pointed out very well, the automatic exspenses, doesn’t even touch the amount you will really spend on X-TRA tools plus your ‘Tool Trunk’ board & easel/projectors etc.. that all real leaders have to buy! ~That’s if they want to be successful & set the example for their team to ‘build’ your business, they will tell you!

    The ‘Time’ spent is the most atrocious and regretful!

    I am lmao at the 10 hours a week! There is NO ONE, NO WAY that would get anywhere with 10 hours a week! You chew that time up in about 3 1/2 days just in Cd~listening and that doesn’t get anyone started!
    At least directly, if you listen to enough though people will just say yes because they are afraid to say NO & just want you; cultish/wierd people to get out of their house! Usually they are just stunned and am not sure what just happened to them-lol!

    As you said, it took you 4 YEARS of non-stop effort to start to break even!
    But ‘pay now play later’….JOKE

    We started in a remote area (no people) and in AMWAY-lol so it took a lot longer with the same effort to get 1 person started! The more you build the more time it consumes! Just the driving time with 1 plan (turned into a group so became the building spot) was 2 hours 1 way so~ 4 hrs per plan of driving!

    Still today, leaders drive that without a thought. Then add in the time, money & effort of an out-of-state group, like we did and I am sure a lot of others!!!

    If you listed out the ‘real time’ spent as webelieved pointed out some of the smaller things that sucked your time, the only choice was to work it 24/7!
    Just in the ‘Thinking & Planning’ was 24/7!

    And the worst of all, that time & money you will never get back with those, over 99% guarunteed to fail, who will never make it~

    And if they decide they want to steal all that time, effort & money from you without even an explanation, only slander & lies, and destruction to your team, after you build it for years; you will be left in a wake of destruction, been lied to and with nothing but regrets for believing they were ‘honest’, Christian-principled people with false hope and lies!

    There is NO security in Team I don’t care what they have told you! No ‘passive residual business’ you will forever be ‘building’ your business because there will always be a large percentage who quit continually!
    You will have to put people in at least double of what is quiting to maintain where ever your break even point, which most will never, ever get there!

    Choose Wisely & THINK! Read all the webites and talk to someone that has the facts!
    Study, ask, and read the income disclosure statement, find someone who has an unbiased opinion with facts about the IDS, products and the real truth~
    Ask yourself the right questions; Do you have at least $500 per month, (it will be a lot more I promise) are you willing to give up years of your time, effort, and money up for nothing only to know you have been warned and never listened~losing all that and more, the precious time away from your family and children? Is it worth it to dis-own and ignore your loved ones and friends because they aren’t ‘in business’ with you? Would you follow people who lie, use deceptive recruiting techniques and mind-control~to take people’s money, time, family and friends? DO YOUR RESEARCH!

  7. Not Signed Up Yet permalink
    May 5, 2011 10:05 am

    I have a business already, (not mvteam or any MLM) When I was showed this the comp plan and Income disclosure statment I didnt get it. I asked where the profits came from…volume. Then they told me the juice was for personal consupmtion and they buy it from each other. What? What is autoship for if you can just buy juice from another distributor? I am more interested in profit and loss statements than incomd disclosures and comp plans. How do make money on an tiem that you buy for persoanl consumption? I dont follow the logic.

  8. Speak Your Truth permalink
    May 5, 2011 10:30 am

    If they are telling you it is for ‘personal consumption’ only, then wouldn’t that be an illegal pyramid scheme~no end users ‘customers?’ You think that is why they spend time in the ‘plan’ trying to convince you it’s not?
    Don’t feel bad we never even looked at nor understood the IDS (seriously embarrassing), they do an unprecedent job of keeping your thoughts & eyes off of that! In my opinion, there is a reason to not understanding that and it is not to help you make an informed decision, I really don’t know if is accurate either.
    But if you go to and, shamefully, that is where I had to learn the facts!
    You are way ahead of the game & keep critically thinking~it will save you!

  9. May 5, 2011 1:42 pm

    Not Signed – They didn’t want you to “get it” ! That’s the point! You see…. the answers that you are looking for are at the “Next Meeting”! And so it begins…..

    I’m glad your critical thinking has kicked in, it will serve you well. As for the “buy from yourself” approach to volume….it’s the only way they are going to generate any volume for their “business”. Have you ever tried to retail a bottle of $45 Jungle Juice??? I have….not good. Keep reading through this blog and learning! It will save you THOUSANDS of dollars!

  10. Speak Your Truth permalink
    May 5, 2011 2:30 pm

    Punisher~I agree the $45 dollars, it’s too bad they don’t sell it in stores, with the other fruit juices, and be competitive? After all Dallin says he doesn’t want it to be the ‘best juice in the world, but the best juice for the world.’ Then why limit it to getting in an MLM where Most People Fail, over 99% and gain a bad rep, to self consume?
    Well..we know the answer to that, don’t we, it’s not about the juice!
    We did try to help (out of guilt) a few people @ first and even by giving it away cases of $$-bottles, NO ONE would even buy it after giving them a free bottle! There was a leader on our team that bought a spot/booth with some other team mates, @ a huge craft-fair, to sell MV, and they gave away over $600 of free samples and offered buy one get one free~ and low & behold, did NOT sell ONE bottle! After I heard that it became a no-brainer! Because all’s anyone knew was what everyone from ‘the top’ was repeating about how ‘miraculous’ it was and worth it’s value.
    It wouldn’t matter what it was; we were done!

  11. the bluesman permalink
    May 5, 2011 2:36 pm

    I remember the all will be revealed at the seminar I was invited to last month. My not quite yet sponsor told me that everyhting I need to know would explaiend at the seminar. Wait a tic…several tuesdays nights and they didnt explain everyhting there? My “sponsors ” has bene in this 3 years and she cannot explain everyhting? Oh yeah, my red flags started popping up every where

  12. May 6, 2011 5:53 am

    bluesman – Yep … your sponsor has obviously listened to a lot of CD’s! They did what they were supposed to do…tell you nothing….and get you to the next meeting! Let the brainwashing begin! Glad to see you saw through the sham! Welcome here by the way!

  13. Jason DuPree permalink
    July 10, 2011 6:09 pm

    Everyone’s looking for something for nothing. The TEAM isn’t for the person who isn’t interested in developing themselves. I’ve been with TEAM for over 5 years now. The first 3 years I belly ached because I wasn’t earning enough. Truth is, it was MY OWN fault because I made the choice to not take in the world class info and apply it. Just because you people don’t have the courage to admit that you don’t have the guts to learn and follow through with something doesn’t make this program a bad thing. If you want to continue giving opinions, they’d have more merit if you chose to get in the ring with people like myself and Orrin Woodward.

  14. July 18, 2011 9:40 am

    Jason – Your comments are laughable. The point of the post was not how to get “something for nothing” it was to show people on a basic level what it will cost them to become involved in the Team “Training System”. Your sad little personal attacks have little to do with anything…. but I see the “System” is working wonders on your people skills! As for getting in the ring with you or Orrin Woodward…. you clearly haven’t read a lot on this blog. A lot of the people on this blog (including myself) were speaking from the Team stage. Several former round table members and triple 100’s, are commenting. I just checked the team website and am puzzled…. I didn’t see your name listed as a speaker for the Team! So until you have reached at least the triple 100 level….if you get into the ring with any of us, you sir will be verbally knocked out! Thanks for coming. BOOM!

  15. Speak Your Truth permalink
    July 18, 2011 12:47 pm

    MLM Punisher~ Kaboom! Yea why aren’t you speaking? Jason is proving who the coward is. 🙂


    Do you just bounce around from thread to thread spreading your lies of ‘people want something for nothing?’ LHOL. Go back under the Hawkins posts where you started those lies, and address it there? Who is the coward? Who doesn’t finish what they started?

    You are repeating your brainwashed statements over an over, just like a good little follower; the system/upline teaches you and others this, you are looking more and more like a brainwashed hypocrite who I doubt is making a dime of profit and not speaking either? Why do suppose Orrin doesn’t come here to address the real issues in a public forum if none of this is true? When did you loose your common sense and critical thinking, at the 3 year mark when you ‘surrended’ it all? I pity you when you wake up.

    It is obvious to all of us, you are afraid of the truth, and just came here to call others names, and continue to lie to yourself why others left. You don’t think when ‘new prospects’ that Matt brings to the site, LOL come here they don’t see what the Team is really like by your’s and others name calling and lying? Not looking to good for you and would say it is defeating your cause, but shows and represents the Team here in their true colors.

    Why haven’t you taken the challenge to find the truth from those who left, Jason?
    It’s obvious to the ‘outside’ real world, where people THINK on their own reasoning, why you haven’t.

    You should learn from those who have ‘been there’. You have no idea how courageous whistle-blowers are, read up on them, there might even be some in the books you are reading, bet you think they are hero’s, especially one’s that affect you and your loved ones personally.

    For example; what if your mom, dad or anyone you care about was being warned not to give away their entire life savings to the Madoff scam or any other scam that was trying to rip them off; would you call those who saved their life savings from being ripped off,cowards? You have a lot to think about Jason hope you haven’t lost your conscience too. You should read the TEAM SPEAK and EX-TEAM posts and check out the ‘loaded lanuage’, do a little studying on that cult jargon and read the recommended books on here.
    Start studying cult leaders and cults, get prepared. 🙂

    You have reached the 2-5 year mark, and not making a profit yet?

    How long do you think it will take you, LHOL.You don’t have a clue who or what you are talking about ,so find another site to spread your negative and name calling, you bring nothing here but your ignorance and example of the TRUE COLORS of the TEAM misleaders that you represent to a tee.

  16. switch permalink
    July 18, 2011 1:04 pm

    Jason says-
    “world class info”?

    …….Since when is lying, “world class info”?

  17. Jason DuPree permalink
    July 20, 2011 3:15 pm

    Anyone with a set of “fingers” can certainly have an opinion. That’s exactly what you’re stating…. opinion. There’s a word called HUMILITY that’s very rarely practiced in this world. The ability for a person to drop their pride and admit they don’t know what they don’t know. It takes courage to do that. Maybe you’ll get some one day. Better yet, why don’t you stop hiding out in a blog site behind a screen and get out of your house and do something?? Everyone likes to whine and do nothing………. the bucks stops with me. Either get in the ring or go through life spewing your factless, worthless, meritless redirect.

  18. Speak Your Truth permalink
    July 20, 2011 4:55 pm

    Jason~Wow- Really? Where is your facts you have stated? Then you think you are schooling people on Humility? Name calling? You have showed an ounce of HUMILITY;Hypocrite. You ought to practice what you preach, you are a perfect fit. Why don’t you go read Samantha’s Post, and drop your pride because you don’t know what you don’t know! You ought to be ashamed of yourself!

  19. Speak Your Truth permalink
    July 20, 2011 4:57 pm


  20. switch permalink
    July 20, 2011 6:41 pm

    Maybe we should try “TRUE or FALSE” with Mr. DuPree?

    It may spell things out for him a little better seeing how he doesn’t understand what facts and opinions are.

    Let me know J, when you’re ready to answer some questions truthfully here.

    Thanks for your time,

  21. Steve permalink
    July 20, 2011 7:05 pm


    You are way out of line here. The posts that you have been reading are not of some disgruntled “I was in for three months, and it didn’t work” IBO’s opinion. These are facts from RT members and other very high level pin IBO’s. These people have seen, been through, and experienced more with Team than you or anyone else has the right to call them “whiners, and do nothings”. Jason we were all like you at one time. We also didn’t believe the naysayers, and the critics because we were indoctrinated into the system just like you are now. I, and others didn’t come to this website to spew “factless, worthless, meritless redirect,” who would believe us if that was our intention? The facts speak for themselves. Please if you don’t believe what is beeing posted here, go ask your RT upline what ever happened to Jeff Granger, Greg Rau, Tom Cullen, Dan Abraham, Mike Foos, Rick Reed, Chris Smith, Randy Haugen, Billy Florence, Mark Crawford, etc. etc. etc. just to name a few of the many who had their teams decimated by the goings on inside Team. The reason they are no longer with Team is becaused they were lied to, mislead, and had their teams taken from them, among many other reasons. We have all heard the worn out phrase “you don’t know what you don’t know”, and in this case it either fits you well, or you just don’t care.

  22. July 20, 2011 9:42 pm

    Jason – I can’t help but relate to where you are right now. It’s an awful feeling isn’t it? You know deep down that something is wrong….but you’ve already given so much of your life! 5 years you said? That’s 5 years….you can never get back. Let alone the countless relationships and dollars you’ve put into this thing. The fact that you’ re on this site, gives me hope that you’ll seek the truth and ask the tough questions. WE ARE NOT YOUR ENEMY! Even if it feels like we are personally attacking you through our “opinions” of the Team. Go back and read my original post, along with my replies. These are not opinions my friend…. they are facts, taken from the Team Website. I along with others on this site, speak from their countless years of experience building the Team “business”. I ran the roads many a night, paid my dues, listened to cd’s until I burned out my vehicle’s cd player! I’ve been where you are now.

    Your right… the buck does stop with you! One of Orrin’s greatest quotes.. ” A man convinced against his will, is of the same opinion still”! I nor anyone else on this site will “convince” you what you are doing is wrong. That’s not what I’m trying to do. I hope and pray that others like yourself, come on here and open their minds….just a crack…. to the possibility that just maybe….there is some merit in what we are saying. Only you can take the next step. Here’s another beauty for you…..”Beware the questions you ask….for they determine the answers”.

    As for doing something with my life. Rest soundly….my life is all I could have hoped for! Awesome career, beautiful family, good friends, and some rather expensive life experience that I can thank the Team for!

    SYT & Switch…thanks for getting my back. Steve….awesome well thought out reply!

  23. I Quit ( and glad I Did) permalink
    July 21, 2011 4:57 am

    I’ve heard Orrin say “What do you want? What does it cost? Pay it!”
    So Jason… Maybe you really want information? The cost here is an hour or two of reading. The question is will you pay it?

  24. Speak Your Truth permalink
    July 21, 2011 6:27 am

    Steve & MLM Punisher~ excellent post. Jason has a choice, he can either accept what is fact or deny it.

    Punisher~ You can’t deny your facts in this post, especially for someone who knows what it takes and is building for 5 years. Jason is having a battle with his conscience as we all did, its part of the ‘waking up’ and that is the decision point. We all experienced this.

    The financial loses are nothing in comparison to the excruiciating pain of knowing you lost all those years with your loved ones,the betrayal of friendships, for an illusion, lie, and some severe corruption. If Jason only knew the agony we and our families have all had to sufffer and face when we realized the truth and had to own the pain and responsibility, of bringing all those people in, the years gone from our faimily and friends that we denied them of our time, is diffi’cult’ to face, but the best choice we ever made was to stand on the truth; when the truth showed up. That takes COURAGE.

    The healing and battle isn’t over we continue to receive the abuse from those we once promoted. Jason and the rest have been conditioned to attact and protect the illusion of wealth and riches. But at some point everyone of us cut our loses and for us asked forgiveness, so I am sure for most on here. Jason and the rest won’t accept that we are as convicted, if not more convicted, in helping others see the truth now as we were convicted/brainwashed in building the business. “To know and not to do, is still not to know.” There is no turning back. 🙂

  25. switch permalink
    July 21, 2011 6:31 am

    Not a problem, Punisher.

    To be quite honest, I really don’t think Jason realizes what ring he’s landed in. Heck, Jason isn’t even ready to answer the questions truthfully and honestly, here.

    5+ years is a very respectable amount of time with the team here, J. Therefore, as the life coach you’re dying to be, you should be able to address every question someone on your team or new prospect should have.

    If you wanna keep playing the “beating around the bush” game with us, by all means, keep doing what you’re doing….you’re doing a fine job at it, which isn’t surprising to me at all.

  26. Steve permalink
    July 21, 2011 9:17 am

    I want to thank you all for allowing the truth to be heard. I guess its a sad indictment when I read Samanthas post, that it didn’t surprise me. Our goal is to educate those out there that have seen Team, involved with Team, or are just kicking the tires (sorry for the Bradyism), with Team, and let them know that Team is not what they portray to be. For all of you who think these people are quitters, whiners, and losers, please ask the appropriate questions to your uplines, and educate yourself on the last four years that the Team has been in business. These last four years would include August 2007, to the present time, and then tell these people who are trying to protect you that this business is for you. Please do you’re due diligence. The few hours it will take you will save you a lifetime of regret.

  27. Interesting Words permalink
    July 22, 2011 2:00 pm

    These questions have been mulling through my mind for the past few months. I am currently building my TEAM business and can see the financial truths in these posts. As a Choleric/Melancholy, I am always in search of the truth. I see consistent truths with the “negative” posts on this blog.

    As someone who wants nothing more than to have true happiness in life and a newbie to this blog, how do I know that these posts are coming from past RT’s and Triple 100’s?

    Name dropping doesn’t do enough for my intuition.

    Thanks for sharing your TRUE experiences.

  28. Speak Your Truth permalink
    July 22, 2011 5:10 pm

    Interesting Words~ I do believe you answered your own question when you said; ” I see consistent truths with the “negative” posts on this blog.”

    Welcome to the site. 🙂

  29. Interesting Words permalink
    July 23, 2011 2:51 pm

    Speak Youth Truth – Fair Point!

    webelieved – I have been in for a little under a year. I thought that Team Approach (sling/squeeze/side action) was a great theory to business building. Until, I got to thinking “why does the “YES” go to the bottom?”. That is when I began to question the direction of the business methods I was using. Why would you not reward the “YES” and drop the “MAYBE” + “NO” below them?

    I am not one to convince anyone to do anything. Convincing creates a win-lose situation. “Sling/Squeeze” is nothing but convincing your “YES” you will help them and then convincing your “MAYBE’s” + “NO’s” to get started with other people already going into their business.

    There is such a focus on system + numbers at seminar’s, I am sure someone would notice. However, now I question “Would they REALLY care?”

    I am hanging on by a thread to a business that I believed in and have put a ton of time/money into …

  30. Speak Your Truth permalink
    July 23, 2011 3:44 pm

    Interesting Words~

    We all know where you are at. It is a very difficult decision when others you have brought in are involved. For us we had to do what we did because we WOULD NOT stand for these cons destroying our team. I promise you this, standing on your integrity will WIN every time no matter what you have to face or have to lose.

    With ALL that aside, it is by NO EXAGERATION, NOR STRETCH OF THE IMAGINATION, some these guys are great deceivers and manipulatiors, and in my opinion evil, simply put they are cons. Orrin; based on what I know is a very sick and twisted individual. There is WAAAY More to the story than even what is on here. We are NOT here to convince you, just warn you and let you decide, because from experience we know it is a LIE. Most of us feel the moral obligation to tell the truth and warn others.

    You obviously, will have to make your own choices, just as everyone will whether they believe those here are speaking the truth or not. These are my opinions based on what we experienced and know and will say it is dangerous for those who blindly follow and believe ANYTHING they say, especially Orrin.

    Good luck, it won’t be easy, but once you know the truth there is no turning back, period.
    It has been an excruciating journey and the financial loses we endured is NOTHING compared to the other damages. We left with a conscience, but not without suffering.

  31. Speak Your Truth permalink
    July 23, 2011 3:56 pm

    One last thing, I honestly wish I could say we were only in a year. Well over a decade, so as I said the loses are immeasuable especially the TIME. 😦

  32. Interesting Words permalink
    July 23, 2011 4:35 pm

    I have read several of the postings on this site the past couple of days.

    What is the deal with the profit sharing + hard earned residual income being taken away after you decide to stop building the business? How is that legal?

    Also, what happened to Pastor Dickie? Did he leave TEAM? His CD is the CD that got me started in the business.

  33. Interesting Words permalink
    July 23, 2011 5:04 pm

    webelieved – that BITE model is an eye-opener

  34. Interesting Words permalink
    July 23, 2011 5:05 pm

    webelieved – that BITE model is real eye-opener

  35. Speak Your Truth permalink
    July 23, 2011 7:31 pm

    Interesting Words~ Pastor Dickie is no longer associated with Orrin, we cannot speak for him, but I think you could either call him or most can figure it out.

    As far as them stealing our profit-sharing and teams, that is the number 1 question always asked. The answer is simple, there is NO ONE POLICING them so Orrin does what he wants and am sure he is crossing his figures at all times, hoping someone doesn’t sue the pants off of him.

    There were contracts we all signed but one major problem, we couldn’t READ or GET A COPY of them nor have we ever. NO ONE that I am aware of knows how the profit-sharing is paid out and Orrin NEVER has been transparent with the formula so everyone in profit-sharing has to TAKE Orrins WORD that they he is HONEST and PAYING them legitimately. Let me ask you what company on the PLANET wouldn’t tell you how you are paid? And worse all of us who were in profit-sharing, just did. BIG MISTAKE.

    Well, I could go off with some choice words for ya but would rather not. I will say this based on our experience we DON”T TRUST THEM AT ALL because they have PROVEN a thousands times they aren’t trustworthy. They are NOT honest, and do NOT have integrity.

    Hope that answers your question. 🙂

    I do feel for you and know exactly where you are at, count your blessings, you are still using your critical thinking. I know this is a shock to read this site, because your brain goes into overdrive on how could they ‘act’ like ‘Christian’s’ and the comments on here reveal differently.
    You are on track when you see the truth in the bite model.

    Magnify the shock factor by a thousands and that was our experience, after a decade and a half believing they were ‘best friends’ and wouldn’t do anything they have done.
    When we could finally see who they really were based on their actions, then you go into shock and it takes a long time to pull out of it depending on how long you were in and how close to the top you got.

  36. Speak Your Truth permalink
    July 23, 2011 7:35 pm

    BTW~ Orrin has blatantly denied he has told people they get a residual income. Go figure.

  37. Patrick Lipzinski permalink
    August 1, 2011 4:35 am

    First of all if you think $500.00 a month is a lot of money I would suggest a different career choice. Secondly if you don’t even have the courage to use your own name on your blog you probably shouldn’t speak on any topic and you’re definitely not qualified to speak on anything about Team. It’s kind of hard to convince a living breathing testament of this system that he’s wrong. Don’t be mad and point fingers because you don’t have as much courage as Orrin and the policy council do in a finger tip. Instead of whining complaining and making excuses on here about how you didn’t have the work ethic to build yourself a business, why don’t you quiet your useless mouth and rest your criticizing fingers and go have some guts and build a business so that your family can live free and not have to worry about the opinions of nameless faceless critics that don’t have anything more significant they could be doing. I hope your children do something more significant than gossip on a blog about something to try to tear it down lol..what a legacy.

  38. August 1, 2011 8:47 am

    Pat, I hope you stay on here for a while and don’t run away like the rest of the cult teambots do. You obviously have not read much of this site. This should be interesting.

  39. August 1, 2011 8:52 am

    All the legacy horse crap that Pat is talking about makes sense now. A quick glimpse into his fb account and you get this:

    “Through any trouble any conflict there will always be those that certain set of people that you can take their word to the bank the type of person like you that no matter the situation I could always count on you sticking by your word, whic…h in my mind has earned you a few more descriptive words of honor to wear upon your heart like medals of war, Integrity, Character, Love, Honor, Humility, Fiercely standing for principles, L.I.F.E. It’s time to provide one for thousands of people because we decided to serve others and forget ourselves into a legacy that lasts into eternity.”

    If this doesn’t sound like a cult I don’t know what does.

  40. August 1, 2011 10:12 am

    $500/month in expenses becomes a problem if there is no money coming into the business as income. If the majority of TEAM members do not make more than they are putting into the business, is that a good or bad business?

  41. Speak Your Truth permalink
    August 1, 2011 10:37 am

    Let me guess you just drank the ‘kool-aid’/ the liquid courage, and decided ‘I’ll show them, I’m going on with my name, if it is your name, lol’ by coming on here and reguritating the same ole bullsh*t rhetoric all those who drink the liquid courage do after they attend, the kool-aid celebration. LHOL Why haven’t you come here to bash before this? Was this your first ‘life celebration, and decided you would pay us a visit because they slammed those telling the truth from stage?’ Got that liquid courage flowing for ya, did they? Are you wondering yet how we know what you just experienced? It is very evident to us when the kool-aid has been served, we drank it for years, because they all crawl out of the woodwork ‘all bad and invincible’, to come tell us ‘we aren’t qualified to speak on anything about Team.”

    What’s it take to fit your ‘qualifications’ there Patrick?’ Let us know what your ‘living, breathing, testament’ is, we can compare. Fits right into the ‘cultish’ rhetoric.

    You haven’t the slighest idea what we do to take care of our families, but this I will assure you, we are now spending real time with our children and we aren’t scamming, lying, cheating, deceiving, or stealing to get it, unlike you and those grand masters you follow.

    Could luck with your children, I wish nothing bad on them and hope you wake up because I already know you aren’t spending quality if any time with them. If we allowed our children to come on here to share what they have experienced your conscience would crush you, that is if you still have one left.

    Come back when the kool-aid wears off, then maybe, read the rest of the site, if you can pull it together and get back to earth, you might learn something from those on here. Don’t worry it wears off in about a week or sooner depends how much rejection you can tollerate.

    I am sure we have all built waaayyyy bigger teams than you have, drove thousands of more miles, spent hundreds of thousands more dollars, spent years around those you worship (idolitry) and have seen the corruption and destruction first hand, then we had it all stolen our teams, & profit-sharing. Hope your fate isn’t the same.

    So, when you can pull your head out of your… or at least come down off the high your on, regain some critical thinking, then maybe you will see that we were once just like you with way more experience and are on here to give you the rest of the story. Take it or leave it, if you are that stubborn to holding on those blinders for dear life, to the false hope, then so be it.

    Move on to your delusional life of ‘significance’, give it all you got, hey buddy you can do it, but don’t come back whinning when you didn’t heed to the truth. Although we are pretty forgiving, when others have been crushed, we don’t tollerate any abuse from the kool-aid gallery. 🙂

  42. switch permalink
    August 1, 2011 10:58 am

    Fresh Meat, Patrick…….Freeeeessshhh, Meat.

  43. Prospect permalink
    August 1, 2011 2:22 pm

    Are you required to get all of those materials from TEAM?

  44. August 1, 2011 2:51 pm

    MonaVie juice you get from the MonaVie corporation.

    Everything else listed in the post is sold by TEAM. Now, if you find that material elsewhere (library, ebay, etc.), you may be accused of not duplicating / following the system.

    You’re not required to buy anything from TEAM. They will say, however, that if you don’t invest in your business, how will you get ahead? This encourages you to think you need to buy their materials in order to succeed in your business or in your life.

  45. Prospect permalink
    August 1, 2011 2:54 pm

    Ok, but in this post it says AT LEAST $500.00. So that wouldn’t be a true statement?

  46. Prospect permalink
    August 1, 2011 2:58 pm

    Also, you state ” They will say, however, that if you don’t invest in your business, how will you get ahead?” That is true in any business, right?

  47. Speak Your Truth permalink
    August 1, 2011 3:03 pm

    Prospect~ They will tell you it is ‘optional’ but then they will tell you so is your ‘SUCCESS.’ And that will be the ‘pressure’ from there on out. In other words it isn’t optional if you want ‘success’ whatever that means, but I will tell you from experience buying ALL their stuff, PLUS, will compound your debt, especially when you realize that not only do 99% lose money, will never make a profit but their is a way bigger problem than financial at stake. If you like those odds and fall for you aren’t going to be in that percentage then you have your answer. I would read this site and Pyramid Scheme Alert, Sequence, Inc. Fraud Blog, Juicescam, Lazyman, and what ever you to research what you are in or will be in. Read the Bite Model/ Steve Hassan.
    Do your research just as anyone starting a business would, also read the FTC guide lines of what they are required by law to offer you as far as documented sources of income etc..

  48. August 1, 2011 3:18 pm

    If you want to be “gung-ho”, “all-in” or a “go-getter” in the eyes of TEAM, you will be paying that much each month. If you want to take it “nice and slow” you can get by for less… but the pressure to buy more will always be there.

    The bottom line is this… if you spend more than you take in, your business is taking a loss. If you spend $500 on TEAM materials and make $100, you are losing money. If you spend $200 a month of TEAM materials and make back $100, you are losing money. If you spend $100 on TEAM materials and make $100 back, you have broken even. If you spend $100 and make $200, you have made $100, but don’t forget to account for the time you spent to make that $100.

  49. August 1, 2011 3:25 pm

    @Prospect – Read MLM Punisher’s original post for a breakdown of what you can give to TEAM. He went all in, which is where my $500/month figure comes from. He did this for six years.

  50. Speak Your Truth permalink
    August 1, 2011 6:55 pm

    I think prospect is playing a little game of twist and turn, and thought he would point out the $500 isn’t a ‘true statement.’ Another one who is ignoring their monthly expenses, especially just coming out of the big pre-launch, must not have time to add up those cost yet!

    We already know it is way more than $500 per month, if you are a hard core leader/builder that is just the basic costs. A 3rd grader running a lemonade stand knows if it costs $5 for the cups and lemonade and they only make, 1.00 your are 4 dollars in the hole and it is a LOSS! LHOL Another going ‘poor’ soul who wants to believe it no matter what the loss.

  51. Patrick Lipzinski permalink
    August 2, 2011 4:05 am

    I apologize for coming after you guys when I read your post. It was wrong of me and I shouldn’t have. And I would like to thank whoever was a part of team before for helping to make it better and easier to win. You can call it a cult or it’s people team bots or whatever but I found myself spiritually through team I got a grip on my financial life on every aspect if my life that needed work they provide those materials and a world class business to apply them too. I’m sorry that you guys didn’t have a great experience with team but they have been a great opportunity and a fantastic education system for me. I guess people really only take from it what they put in I’m not saying I know anything about what you all put in but I appreciate the effort. You guys obviously have a drive and determination to make a mark and I appreciate that, but whether you believe in team or not, I hope you still believe in the cause, to awaken America and restore the principles that this country was founded on, those principles that are so easily forgotten day to day. I’m not going to take anymore time you guys do what you feel is right I just hope you fight another day to restore freedom and free enterprise the way it was supposed to be.

  52. Steve permalink
    August 2, 2011 5:46 am


    It seems odd to me that someone like yourself would show up here on this blog, and comment on what is perseeved by those in Team as “opinions from namless faceless critics”. I too came to this site while in Team, and disagreed with what was being said here. I didn’t comment back then because I felt that if I didn’t take the time to read all of the posts, and learn of their experiences while in Team, I had no right to comment or to voice my opinion. As we all have learned there is a difference between fact, and opinion. When I read posts from people who have been in the inner circle of team, and their experiences, all it takes is for someone like myself who was climbing the ladder to connect the dots. I never made it to PC or RT with Team, but was in profit sharing, and I was witness to the “facts” (not opinions) that are mentioned in earlier posts. Having said all of that I can’t speak for everyone here, but the apologies should go to those you have recruited into Team. I too came to a saving knowledge of Christ with Pastor Dickies teachings, and guidence. All of us at one time or another also “believed in the cause to reawaken America and restore the principles that this country was founded on”. Unfortunatley when Christ is used as a cover for the misdeads by the leaders of Team, integrity issues begin to surface, and are exposed to the point where you start to question what you have gotten yourself into. Please understand I don’t blame Pastor Dickie here, he was duped like I was. Patrick I ask you to look at the big picture. Go back and read what has happened to those who went before you. Those who were making in excess of $10,000.00/month from Team, some of those that worked in the Team Office, and ask yourself this question. These guys were making that kind of money, were retired from their jobs, had information from meetings to only a privileged few, and are no longer with this organization, why would I get into a business with these people? If you truly appreciate what they have gone through as you say, then you must hear their story. Everyone has an opinion, but facts are pesky little things.

  53. August 2, 2011 6:24 am

    Steve, very well said. Thanks.

  54. Patrick Lipzinski permalink
    August 2, 2011 6:38 am

    The bottom line is that the thinking that I have now serves me very well and I know that I can succeed in whatever it is that I’m doing so long as I’m passionate about it. I don’t doubt this business and I don’t doubt the leaders.I know truth when I hear it I don’t need anyone to confirm that to me. I apologize for ever coming here it was never my intention it’s the first time I ever saw it and it’s unfortunately the first thing that pops up when you type living intentionally for excellence into it. And lastly I know that I freely choose to be involved in team and could freely leave it when ever I felt like it it’s not like someone is outside my house with a battle axe telling me I can’t leave team.. but so long as it helps me serve my purpose I will choose to be a part of it. I’m sorry it didn’t affect you all that way but I’m choosing and nothing will stop that. you guys do what you do I know God has a plan for you all just be sure and ask for it 🙂 you all have a blessed life this will be the last you see of me.

  55. switch permalink
    August 2, 2011 6:47 am

    omg………classic, Patrick.

  56. switch permalink
    August 2, 2011 6:55 am

    A classic “stick your nose up in the air” and “god bless” to all at the end.

    And everyone lives happily ever after. It’s as easy as that….right, Patrick?

  57. Steve permalink
    August 2, 2011 7:03 am


    I am sorry to see that half truths, misleading statements, lies, lack of integrity, character issues, change the rules as we go, etc. are ok with you, as long as it serves your purpose. So if I may ask…. What exactly is your purpose?

  58. Speak Your Truth permalink
    August 2, 2011 7:23 am

    You have come back with a humble spirit to appologize and we can appreciate, respect, and accept that. We already know it is really hard to read the truth, and even harder to have lived it.

    We are not looking for pity nor credit for anything. I agree with Steve, you will eventually have to appolgize to those you bring in. Steve has made some very good points and I hope you continue to research the FTC guidlines on how you are required to legally run your business (Opperation Empty Promises),cults, and other websites, do you know the history of the Team? Have you read the lawsuits and did you know Orrin was behind a massive ANONYMOUS smear campaign? So if Orrin is bashing Anyone about being Anonymous which we know he does, then that makes him a Hypocrite. Does he think no one knows what he did?

    You are getting a very restricted view of what the team is because they control the information(cult) and are good at ‘appearing’ like they care, live by Christian Principles and are fighting for ‘free enterprise’. It’s because they don’t allow any negitive truth, which that is where the danger lies, you eventually shut out any of it, even when you know it is truth. Did you ever THINK the reason they are so passionate might be because they make multi-millions of dollars from selling those ideas and their ‘life’ system? Do you THINK if they didn’t or the goverment shut them down would they still spread their agenda for free?

    I do not call it a cult just because, no, it fits it to a tee. I take that very seriously, they are very destructive, as has been all of our experiences. Read the rest of the site and read up on cults and start with Steve Hassan’s simple Bite Model, then read Robert Lifton & Margarette Singers books on thought reform. This is not a joke. Get your info from the correct sources(cult experts).

    Thousands of People’s lives have been damaged from some deliberate, calculated destruction. Just because Orrin and the PC are corrupt, does NOT make all the authors of the books in their system bad, there is no comparison, they exploit that information to fit their agenda and it IS what brings them millions of dollars. They must be telling you more lies about the critics don’t believe in reading, postive attidudes, growing spiritually, they have convinced people that once they leave they are worthless and will never do anything good with their lives. THINK about that, do you really believe they are the only answer to all of LIFE?

    So, it is only because of what the top leaders tell all the people (indoctrinate) including you about those who left, that we are cowards, who are faceless, nameless, critics, who just want to tear people down, who wanted something for nothing, didn’t want to do the work, got fired for stealing, didn’t call them to get it resolved. ALL, every bit of that is a LIE. THINK, if Orrin would admitt the TURTH and TELL everyone what he really did and that what we say on here happened to us and is happening, is the TRUTH, then where would that leave the Orrin? He would have to admitt he is a liar and a fraud, now do you really think that would happen?

    How many people would dump their money into HIS and the PC’s bank accounts, if they admitted to the truth? It is not rocket science why Orrin would continue to LIE and do everything in his power to ‘convince’ you and others of all the things they Lie about us. It IS a NO Brainer.

    How many times this past weekend did they get their (indoctrinating) digs in against the ‘critics’, those he used to call friends that built HIS business? Awareness is the key to seeing the truth. Hope you open your eyes and ears.

  59. Speak Your Truth permalink
    August 2, 2011 7:39 am

    The bottom line really is just as you said, you are Choosing to believe, not based on reality. I doubt you Patrick because you say you KNOW the TRUTH when you hear it, that tells me you are lying to yourself. That is okay, you can choose to learn the hard way we believe in FREE THINKING, you just haven’t figured out yet that it isn’t you thinking on your own, you are letting others THINK for you. Probably because want to believe it so bad.

    I pitty you, you must have fallen for Chris B tweet: :”Great Coaches are necessary to help you THINK through whether you SHOULD THINK what you think you should think.”

    You need a coach to THINK? Read up on those cults, but make sure you are sitting down when you do. 🙂

  60. August 2, 2011 9:45 pm

    Wow….leave this site alone for a few days and this thread explodes again! Amthrax, I’m impressed that this post comes up first apparently, when someone searches “Living Intentionally For Excellence”! LOL. Awesome.

    @ Patrick – I had a hundred of you on my team at one point. “Oh… I don’t care if I make a dime, I just glad I’m learning these truths, and have this great association”. Team makes their money on that backs of this person. Full system…goes to every swinging meeting they can…always orders their product….and never shows “the plan”. I wish I could just go back in time and just shake them! Many of these people were some of the nicest people I had ever met! Wonderful people that could have received the same “Association” by joining a book club, or their local church….whatever! The information can be had FOR FREE! Orrin and Chris have stated many times from stage that they just stole success information from people who have had success in their lives! Go ahead and continue to improve yourself… read, learn, grow….TEAM is NOT the only place to get good information! If you believe this…. we have identified the problem! That is the danger with TEAM, the longer you stick around, the more you believe that these guys are right! Not only that…. they are the ONLY ONES who are right! Stay “plugged into the system” and that’s what they’ll have you believe! Until……you stumble across this site……..and MANY others like it.

  61. Mike permalink
    August 4, 2011 6:11 pm

    Hi, I just want to say thanks to everyone here, I want you to know that because of what I have read here I am going to stay far away from people at work that are currently trying to get me into this scam. You saved 1 here! thanks again 😀

  62. August 4, 2011 7:03 pm

    @Mike – You’re welcome. I’m glad the information on this site helped you!

  63. Steve (Peachy) permalink
    August 4, 2011 7:25 pm


    Thanks for letting us know, and if you have any questions at all please don’t hesitate to ask.

  64. August 4, 2011 8:34 pm

    @ Mike – Your welcome man! Now THAT’S what I call “Making a Difference” in somebody’s life!!! The truth is out there…. for those willing to look for it!

  65. Speak Your Truth permalink
    August 5, 2011 7:05 am


    Thanks for the imput, we appreciate it! 🙂
    Good luck fighting off the vultures, it could be fun!
    Perhaps your company has a ‘no soliciting’ policy.

    Probably won’t have to put up with it long, since they ALL the lifers retire and fire their bosses when they become ‘financially FREE’, but the reality is they may end up begging for over time. LHOL

  66. Ryan Severt permalink
    August 7, 2011 2:23 pm

    Funny how all the critics hide behind fake names in these blogs when the one’s who are the courageous one’s who have the results to back up their posts put their actual names on them. Anyone can hide behind the glass of a computer and spew garbage, and most do. Knock yourself out, the courageous will press on.

  67. August 8, 2011 8:45 am

    @Ryan – Please read this post on Masks and Identities:

  68. Speak Your Truth permalink
    August 8, 2011 10:31 am


    You know what I think is hysterical, is you claim to be courageous with results to back it up, just because you come here with your name. (Fake or Real, who knows). LOL
    Why don’t you tell us what your results are? You appear to be a no name.

    Let me remind you, since you are apparently ignorant to the TRUTH; that Orrin himself has done exactly what you and Orrin (hypocrisy at its finest) bash others of; like that changes the truth of what is told on here, NOT. You’re just too blinded to see it. So, nice try but hey go ahead and pump yourself up with your badge of courage, but you haven’t told us what your results are yet to back it up. Then maybe you could read the list of Leaders on here who left that had big Results, let us know where you fall in comparison. 🙂

    Orrin was the Dictator behind an ANONYMOUS massive blogging smear campaign, and he himself had his own ANONOUMOUS bashing blog. Now what? Why don’t you go on Orrin’s blog, tell him he is a COWARD and a hypocrite, and then ask him PUBLICALY about his ANONYMOUS BLOGGING and see if he will post it for the world to see his answer or if your question will even get posted? LHOL

    There are probably only 3 of your courageous team mates, LOL who have ever come on here with their Names,(fake?) and yet no one even recognized their names, so obviously they don’t have any results either. They might as well picked an anonymous name.
    ALL the rest of your team mates who come here, are Anonymous.

    According to your statement your team mates, including, Orrin are all Cowards, since you are implying you have so many results to back yourself up, maybe you could make a CD and tell Orrin and the rest of the cowards they should use their names. LOL

    So knock yourself out Ryan, let’s us know what your results are when you ask Orrin to tell you the truth about his Anonymous blogging. LHOL

  69. Speak Your Truth permalink
    August 8, 2011 10:59 am

    Mr. courageous, LOL

    Did you read Mike’s post? How is it that someone who has never been on the team can see the truth, and you KNOWING how the cult works and know damn well those on here are telling the truth, but you ignore it? You really ought to read those who come here that haven’t gotten started and those who even are on the team and can see plain as day it is, what it is; a fraudlent scam, that uses people as a ticket number and system count and to inventory load, to line the pockets for the top.

    Let me help, You DON’T want to see it, you are semi-choosing, meaning you don’t even know you are being brainwashed and have fallen for the lie of becoming rich!

  70. switch permalink
    August 8, 2011 12:34 pm

    Severt says-
    “Anyone can hide behind the glass of a computer and spew garbage, and most do. Knock yourself out, the courageous will press on.”

    …..and anyone named “courageous” can stand on stage and tell a lie.

    I’m dying to know your results, mr. severt. We’ve been waiting a long time or is this another one time drive by from a life coach?

    Looking forward to it.

  71. Steve (Peachy) permalink
    August 9, 2011 4:18 am

    Ah Steve is my name, Now what Ryan?

  72. michelle permalink
    August 10, 2011 8:14 am

    i somehow found myself at one of these meetings last night, and i wanted to add my 2 cents that i was very uncomfortable with the fact that the person led me to believe i was being given a job opportunity. i thought it was a little disgusting that after an hour i still had no idea what was going on, and realized it was some kind of pyramid scheme, and left.

  73. August 10, 2011 8:42 am

    @Michelle – Thanks for leaving a comment. Can you explain a little more about how you were lured into last night’s meeting? Did they talk about LIFE, MonaVie or TEAM? Can you estimate how many people were in attendance and how many prospects were there like you?

  74. Speak Your Truth permalink
    August 10, 2011 9:45 am


    Thanks for sharing that. You are onto it.

    Who lures people with a ‘job opprotunity’ and then doesn’t sit down and explain exactly what your ‘job’ duties are, how much your pay will be, how many hours you will be working, etc.? You could let the FTC know of your experience and how you were mis-lead into believing it was a ‘job opprotunity.’

    It is not a job, although if you were to get started you would put way more hours in than a job and you would be (paying) your money would go straight up to the Top for them to continue with their ‘riches’ and lifestyle, they brag about.

    Your chances of ever making a profit would be less than 1%! You would be better off playing the lottery!

    I am so glad to hear you have seen through it before you lost what we have! 🙂

  75. August 10, 2011 10:14 pm

    Michelle – Great work checking out this website. You will find many ex-Team members on this site sharing their stories… and not just people that got “signed up” in Team, but people that used to speak at Team events and represent Team on an international level!

    Amthrax – LOVE the new header on this thread! This is one of the top hit sites on the web for the new “L.I.F.E” concept by Orrin Woodward. I hope people hit this site while investigating this “business” after being approached by someone involved. If we can help just one person like Michelle above…. it makes it all worth it! PLEASE… read deeply into this website…. the testimonials on here could save you THOUSANDS of dollars and years of your life!

  76. August 11, 2011 8:39 am

    @MLMPunisher – I figured I would add a little more to the post, since it’s listed so high in search results. There’s also a poll at the end of the post where I ask readers to see if this post is effective or not. Hopefully people will see for themselves that TEAM/LIFE is not all that it’s cracked up to be.

  77. Speak Your Truth permalink
    August 11, 2011 9:43 am

    Excellent Post, Amthrax; clear and concise!

    Thanks again Punisher for taking the time to lay out what all leaders know is truth and anyone can check these facts, who ever denies this truth is simply that, in DENIAL!

    We all appreciate the support from this site, and by grace, we will be blessed to have helped others!! We have no other hidden agenda or motive and are not getting paid to tell the truth!

    For this site to be top ranked when searching out the Team, should be obvious there has never been this many high level leaders speaking the truth about Orrin the PC and
    li(f)e training system anywhere, and the best part is no one cheated the system of ranking to get it there! Ha!

    It has gotten there naturally and honestly, Amthrax hasn’t told all his team (ha, just kidding) told us to create blogs then everyone link to this blog so it gets more hits to rank it!

    That is what Orrin does with all his blogs and has done since he began blogging, and also tells all the people to go to particular sites to ‘vote’ for him as leadership guru, etc. and his #1 bestselling book, LLR that he can’t even mention without bragging it is #1 it would have NEVER gotten there naturally and honestly, if he hadn’t forced it.

    It was pushed through leaders and tens of thousands of people to buy cases of them and then turned around and sent it down as book of the month through them same tens of thousands of people!

    In my opinion, he cheats, lies, deceives, and creates illusions, and if he was a real professional in any arena, he would be disqualified for cheating his way there!

    It would be like competing in the Olympics or any sports and taking steroids, or cheating on taxes, which we all know is illegal! But because in the MLM industry, they are master illusionist, anything goes, and NO ONE polices them, they do and say anything to trick others in believing in the illusion!

    They never reveal the true data and numbers, will not answer questions, or tell the rest of the story for people to make informed decisions, they only tell you what they want you to believe! Save yourself a lot of heartache, time, and money, read this site before you make a li(f)e decision. Don’t let the illusion of the ‘riches’ and lifestyle’s fool you, look at the facts and then make your decison. 🙂

  78. mgoblue permalink
    August 11, 2011 9:02 pm

    One important piece of info being left out, tax deductions. Every tool, ticket, cd and book not to mention 1094 and or schedule C. Also 500 hundred per month is a koo-koo number, $125 per month is above average.

  79. August 12, 2011 8:13 am

    @mgoblue – Tax deductions only apply to expenses that are incurred during a legitimate attempt to profit! During my time with Team, I saw many people who were not “building” their business writing off events, travel, books, and cd’s! The worst was that they were given this advise by their “Leaders”! This is dangerous and could have serious financial or even legal repercussions should they ever go through an audit! As far as the “Koo-Koo” number goes…. I think the $500 a month is even low for a person who was “All In” like myself! I wasn’t talking about someone who was on basic system…the numbers are right there… read the original post! Do the math…..don’t forget to carry the one….it all adds up. I will agree though…it is Koo-Koo!!!

  80. Speak Your Truth permalink
    August 13, 2011 7:24 am

    Punisher~ Koo-Koo is spending that 500 dollars a month and telling yourself $125 is above average! 🙂 That is Koo-Koo!!!!!

    You nailed it on the taxes~ where did koo-koo go? 🙂

  81. August 13, 2011 1:03 pm

    I’ve read these posts in earnest having stumbled upon Amthrax by a Google miss search. I don’t belong to any MLM organization. A comment:

    Many people write about being ripped off, that they lost $500/month 5 years, something like that. OK, so that’s $30,000. As a downpayment on starting a business, that’s small money. I have friends that have lost $400,000 starting a business and after 3 years failed, total losses were close to $600,000.

    It seems to me, that the masses screaming here are wimps, thinking that every business that starts, TEAM or otherwise is to be a success. Not so. 7 out 10 start-ups fail and great established businesses often cannot ride out a recession.

    $500 a month to risk starting a business that may be one of the 3 out of 10 that make it? Do it ~ run with it. Even if you eventually make a lowly couple a grand a month 3 years from now, seems to me you’d be foolish not to try.

    Just be aware ~ you could fail, and that’s not bad, just pick yourself up and run again.



  82. Speak Your Truth permalink
    August 13, 2011 7:59 pm


    Why don’t you lay out what you get for the ‘above average’ spending of $125 per month, like MLM Punisher did, and then we can compare? Back it up with some FACTS and the data, otherwise, you are just blowing smoke but then that is exactly what the mis-leading team-lifers are best at, smoke & mirrors!

  83. Steve (Peachy) permalink
    August 14, 2011 6:27 am


    You stated the you have never been in an MLM type business, and for that you should be very greatful. Having said that, what’s up with the name calling? While you may not have ever been in an organization like Team, these so called “wimps” were infact involved with Team. These same people you so accuse of being soft were in the upper levels of the Team organization, and witnessed first hand the coruption, lies, misdeeds, stealing of teams, income being taken away, etc. While the cost of Team is being discussed on the recent threads it is sad, but pretty typical of people like yourself who come on here and read the latest post, and then gain an ounce of courage to start calling people names. I know if you did an analysis of how the Team operates, and you can do that here if you go back far enough, and in other threads “More ex-Team members commenting about their Team/Woodward experiences,” you would be able to understand why these people are saying what is being said. These are the facts that the Team dosen’t want you to know about, and hides everything behind the guise of Judeo-Christian values. Please in the future, it would be wise to realize that these folks are here to help those who have been or are currently part of Team, and those who may be interested in Team, to know the facts about this organization.

  84. Lyk permalink
    August 14, 2011 1:49 pm

    Why doesn’t someone put Orrin in jail for all the scamming, if it is in fact a scam? And why are Lawyers agreeing to the new Life business to launch? Do you guys even have the compensation plan for LIFE? just saying

  85. Speak Your Truth permalink
    August 14, 2011 2:36 pm

    David Zki~

    You state you don’t belong to any MLM organization. You supposedly ‘stumbled upon Amtharx’ site and just decided you would state your opinions and on how you feel those on here are

    I have a question or maybe a few for you Mr. Zki. Would You happen to have a ‘partnership’ working on one, or affiliation to anyone on the Team, Orrin Woodward, Tim Marks, Chris Brady, George Guzzarod, Claude Hamilton, Dan Hawkins, Bill Lewis or anyone else affliated with the L.I.F.E. Team training/ education?

    Are you the same David Zki, that is the ‘Managing Editor’ for the Acapella Partnership, LLC; A California Corporation (aka “Academic Radio”) ?

    Just curious, something doesn’t make sense here? People don’t just ‘stumble’ on a website out of millions to ‘stumble upon, and take the time to state what you have; without a motive:

    “that the masses screaming here are wimps, thinking that every business that starts, TEAM or otherwise is to be a success. Not so. 7 out 10 start-ups fail and great established businesses often cannot ride out a recession.”

    I am not going to research whether 7 out of 10 start-ups fail but am sure we could agree their would be different figures on that, depending the source and other factors.

    We are speaking specifically of the Orrin Woodward and the new/ old (Amway, Team of Destiny, Team, Team MV) and now Team L.I.F.E. MLM that you state you aren’t a part of?

    What would be your motive for your opinion, could it be a monetary one?

    Your statistics don’t apply here, the TEAM tells every single person that gets started with them, if they follow their ‘proven system’ and don’t quit, they will make it and NEVER fail. So, if what you say is true, maybe you should share your knowledge with them and inform them it isn’t a good idea for any business to LIE to people.

    We collectively on here have had multiple decades of EXPERIENCE with Orrin Woodward dating back over a decade, and all the others mentioned and the TEAM, built this business, had thousands and thousands of people on our teams, know Orrin personally and you out of no where, have never built an MLM, came here, for what reason?

    We have first hand knowledge and experience of Corruption, theft, lies, deception, and have knowledge of many other unethical, immoral, and illegal activity that these people mentioned have participated in, and also; they have stolen from us and cheated us?

    You wouldn’t happen to have a biased reason you ‘stumbled’ on here would you? We are some ‘whimps’ complaining about some ‘failure.’

    Don’t play us for a fool, and if you are in some way affliated with the team life training or will be and are a part of some ‘educational’ business, thanks for showing up and showing who you are. If you have enough guts to come back and answer questions, remains to be seen.

    We will all know now that whatever you are ‘offering’ in the way of your financial endeavour, we will surely STEER very clear of. Anyone who associates themselves with people we know are liars, thieves and frauds, is exactally who we aren’t and definitely wouldn’t want to spend our hard earned money on or could give a rip what their opinion is.

    So, hope you have enough character, and honesty to ‘stumble’ back on to Amthax’s site to answer questions.

  86. TOD permalink
    August 14, 2011 2:39 pm

    Sorry David, not buying your story for one second. That is a company line if I have ever heard one. You did not happen across this site in some sort of google search error. Save that noise for your downline. Businesses start and they fail, no one is disputing that. But, don’t tell me that going backwards $500 per month in a business that you do not actually own and do not really control is okay. Come on, you’re better than that.

  87. michelle permalink
    August 14, 2011 5:42 pm

    Hi all,
    I was looking at a house that was for rent-to-own that had “some problems” so I brought along my parents who built their house, so I wanted their input. My dad and I walked around the house while my mom walked over to the neighbor’s house because he was standing outside. She thought maybe he could give some insight as to why the house was for sale for such a low price etc.

    While they were talking, she mentioned that I was looking for another job and going back to school. He told her that he had a “unique job opportunity for me as a life coach”. She called me over, and I was kind of skeptical. He led me to believe that it was a small group of people meeting to start a business, and seemed especially interested in the fact that I had a bachelor’s degree and 11 years experience in human services. He couldn’t believe I was 33, and seemed especially excited that I look so young for my age. We exchanged phone numbers and the address of the meeting while talking about it. That was when I was sort of creeped out and walked away.

    I really had no intention of going to the meeting, but I didn’t think it could hurt to find out what was going on, plus my mother pressured me into it. But, I started to have a bad feeling when I saw all of the people walking into the meeting and how different they all were. Everything from some guy that looked like a fall down drunk to a carload of teenagers. I have no idea how many of them were there for the first time like me. I just know that I thought it was odd that people were paying $5 to get into a meeting of people that were supposedly starting a business.

    We all sat down to watch a live webcast, and I only stayed for the first hour or so. I had no idea what was going on, the speaker did mention Mona Vie, LIFE, and TEAM, but not in any meaningful way that led me to know what was going on. It was mostly a bunch of wisecracks about how we’d all like more money in the bank, and how children eat you out of house and home, and building a community.

    The really scary part for me was when I told the recruiter-neighbor guy that I needed to leave (he didn’t tell me how long the meeting would last beforehand) and he followed me to my car. He gave me a book and some CDs and told me to read them. He also wanted to meet with me and pressured me to set up a meeting time 2 days later. I agreed, and fully intended to call the next day to call it off. He was just so persistent that I wanted to get away.

    The next morning, after I read this post and commented here, I texted him this: “Joe, I researched TEAM on the internet and I wanted to let you know that I am not interested in getting involved in a pyramid scheme. I can join a club and be a part of a community for free. Please do not contact me further regarding this matter” He texted me back seconds later saying “Be careful of what information you read. Lets get you correct info”. I texted him back and said “No thank you, I am not interested”. He then called me. I didn’t pick up. I called my mom to bawl her out for getting me involved in this and while we were talking she said “Michelle, a black van is pulling in my driveway….I think it’s that guy!” I got off the phone with her and texted him “Please leave my parents house. I asked you not to contact me again”. I called my mom back and she said he was outside shouting and waving his hands. He also had 3 kids in the car. I saw that he texted me, so I hung up and checked. He asked for the return of his book and CDs. I told him I was not at my parents house at that time. I quickly drove to his house and left it on the doorstep while I called my mom back to find out what was happening. He left 5 minutes after I did and texted me again asking if we could still meet the next day as planned. I told him i had left the book at his house and to stop contacting me.

    It was pretty scary actually. I didn’t understand why he didn’t text me about the return of the book, and showed up at my parents house.

  88. michelle permalink
    August 14, 2011 5:46 pm

    Also, there were roughly 35 people there. a lot of them were cheering and laughing during the webcast. I was wondering if they were paid actors trying to “fire us up”.

  89. Steve (Peachy) permalink
    August 14, 2011 6:11 pm


    First of all I feel sorry for you to have to go through that horrifing experience with Team. Even though the Team will tell you otherwise, you did the right thing by coming to the internet to get your information. All of us here were in Team and are here to help people like yourself to get the facts about Team. If you know of others, or come across those who might have been contacted by Team by all means direct them to this site and others like this for them to get information on Team, that Team doesn’t want you to know.
    Thanks for sharing and we are all glad that you ran away as fast as you could.

  90. August 14, 2011 6:52 pm

    @michelle – thanks for sharing your prospecting story. That guy sure sounded pretty desperate and scary; glad that nothing bad came out of it. The people at the meeting who were cheering and laughing were all TEAM members. They are programmed to edify (more like deify) their leaders, whether they are face-to-face or on a television/computer screen.

  91. Speak Your Truth permalink
    August 14, 2011 6:58 pm

    Lyk~ Do you have the compensation plan for life, you did know there has always been a compensation except it must have been illegal before because they never showed us but go ahead and send it to Amthrax for all of us to see it.

    . Also, give us the names of the attorneys who agree.

    Great question lyk, Why doesn’t someone put ( Enron-Orron) in jail? Here’s a possiblity, no one has investigated him yet and pretty sure if and when the IRS and or the FTC does it won’t be pretty. But hey don’t worry they allow visiters in places like that once in a while. lol 🙂

  92. Speak Your Truth permalink
    August 14, 2011 7:08 pm

    Michelle~ Congradulations for escaping the creep, I hate to say it but I wouldn’t be surprised that there are a lot more who act with such desperation. They always used to say don’t
    ‘chase’ people, but your story is more like stalking!

    I think you ought to tell your story to the FTC and this: “unique job opportunity for me as a life coach”. We are seeing more of this misrepresenting and misleading and when you see this from more than 1 person means someone at the TOP is teaching this. This is a bold-faced lie, it is NOT a job, and should be reported.

    From our experience this is a MLM scam, with some corrupt people who are very cultish. I couldn’t believe the guy had the audacity after how many times you told him NO, he still was relentless. HOW CREEPY and what a fool. You are very wise and thanks for sharing with us. 🙂

  93. not signed up yet permalink
    August 14, 2011 7:42 pm

    On deductions, I was told my my sponsor you could write off everything, but have a real business myself I know that not to be true. You cant write of the open because you aren’t doing any business there, or webcast or the months or even the Majors.

    The posters are right about not sharing information and numbers. I have asked many times a very simple question to my sponsor , the monkey handlers and uplines.

    What is the profit margin on a case of Monavie? Pretty simple and I shoudl get a quick answer. I haven’t yet.

    I was really disappointed at my first open, but then I thought well maybe there is soemthing to this. After three opens and a webcast and a monthly I am really scared of TEAM people.

  94. Speak Your Truth permalink
    August 14, 2011 8:18 pm


    And there are people that have come on here and say no one listens to us or it doesn’t make a difference? I believe they are wrong again. We are making a difference? 🙂

  95. Speak Your Truth permalink
    August 14, 2011 8:25 pm

    not signed up yet~

    Have you gotten a ‘compensation plan’ print out and are you still attending? I don’t blame you for being afraid of the team people, especially after reading Michelle’s stalking story!

  96. Speak Your Truth permalink
    August 14, 2011 8:34 pm

    Michelle~ Would you be so kind to vote in the box that Amthrax has on this thread? Thanks. 🙂

  97. Cali permalink
    August 14, 2011 9:07 pm

    Speak – absolutely. Stumbling onto this blog has done more for me than you’ll ever know. Reading everyone’s stories has been an eye-opening experience. I bet there are many people like me who spent time and money and looked kinda foolish to their family and friends who walked away never knowing the full scale of this total lie, and thought they just didn’t have what it takes, that they weren’t a leader. I never knew until now and it even took a couple weeks for the disbelief to fade away. And really what’s the big deal about being a leader anyway? And is it really only 8 F’s? Why not 8 thousand? Life may be complex but it isn’t really that complicated. I get so sick thinking that there are people who truly believe they must pay out the wahzoo to learn how to have a better life and be a better person. I defended being preyed upon and no one knew how to talk to me because they didn’t know what was really going on either. I wish someone had known the truth and spoke it..

  98. August 14, 2011 9:12 pm

    @Michelle – Wow creepy is right! The sad fact of the matter is that this guy was just following the teachings of this “Business”! He was trying to book his “Follow Through” appointment with in 48 hours. LOL … just like they teach! If that doesn’t work…. let’s just stalk the person in! WOW. This is a great example of why this is not “Your Business”. If stalker dude is on your team…. you can’t control what he does! Your “Business” can be destroyed from the top (see the many posts on this blog), and also from the bottom… aka, stalker dude! As stated before….congrats for getting away without losing any money (if we could have all been this lucky), and spread the word! The truth is on this site…. and it’s FREE!

  99. Speak Your Truth permalink
    August 14, 2011 10:45 pm


    I am so glad you found this site too, and I am sorrier you felt you weren’t a leader, that is a LIE they wanted you to believe, but know that ALL of us were like you in one way or another.

    We did NOT know the whole TRUTH or at least couldn’t prove it (personally speaking from our experience) until the TRUTH smacked us in the face, and it could no longer be DENIED. I thank God everyday, they showed their true and ugly character and how crooked they really are.

    Even though my gut was telling me all along something was progressively going wrong and I was becoming more aware of the discrepancies and the greedy sickness of Orron and the PC, and what they wouldn’t do to protect their MONEY, they kept things hidden like they were hiding the Holy Grail.

    Deception is the ONLY way their business can survive, without it, they wouldn’t have one person in the team. They made things very hard to prove and kept me questioning, watching, observing, and for most in a state of confusion (cult).

    They are MASTER MANIPULATORS, no doubt about it, and they are MASTERS IN DISGUISE with their behavior. They fool most people with their FAKE Christian agenda and their fake- nicey nice, lies, and deception. They still operate exactly like they always have, with the same indoctrinating rhetoric and quotes (cult jargon), still build the same, nothing is different from when they were in AMWAY, but keep lying to the masses that they are different and now have created a “NEW INDUSTRY?” More lies.

    When the truth showed up for us, it was so obvious and very shocking to say the least. When we finally realized during this process, that Orron was behind ALL the corruption, and he and others were destroying people and our teams, IT WAS OVER for us. It was like colliding with evil!

    They WILL be humbled and CAUGHT sooner or later and will not get away with the damages they have forced on tens of thousands of people with their psychological manipulation and coercive persuasion. They are being exposed!

    More and more people are speaking out about their criminal behavior and I will be forever grateful for Amthrax’s site where we have all come together to help others SEE the truth.

    So, thanks for joining in and hope you find this is as healing to you; as a lot of us have. 🙂

  100. michelle permalink
    August 15, 2011 5:41 am

    Others have told me to report it to the better business bureau as well. Who would be the proper authority, and what would I report it as? Fraud?

  101. Speak Your Truth permalink
    August 15, 2011 8:05 am

    Michelle~ You can go to the Federal Trade Commission (FTC)website and get the information to file a complaint, you will get the help you need.

    They also have articles; “The bottom Line’ is one and others about MLM or Network Marketing and Pyramid Schemes, what to look for and oh low and behold they tell you to do your research ONLINE and don’t just stop at the first page when searching to see what others are saying, and what kind of reputation the company has! They also tell you to:

    1.Find — and study — the company’s track record. Look for newspaper or magazine articles about the company. Do an internet search. Look through several pages of search results to get a good idea of the information available about the company.

    Hope tha helps. 🙂

  102. Speak Your Truth permalink
    August 15, 2011 8:08 am


    They are using deceptive recruiting techniques along with, in your case stalking.

  103. August 15, 2011 8:20 am

    On Orrin’s Facebook fan page Lomas Morton left these comments:

    Lomas Morton “Why did Matt Abraham get out of the business? As a lawyer did he see something that concerned him so much that he had to quit? What about Mark Huber and operation “cover up”?”

    Lomas Morton “Your profile picture reminds me of the “Wiggles”. My nephew watches that show all the time and and when they put their hands out like you are its kinda funny. The Wiggles don’t have LIFE though.”


  104. Speak Your Truth permalink
    August 15, 2011 9:31 am

    team deception~ Did Lomas Morton get an answer? LHOL 🙂

  105. August 15, 2011 10:21 am

    It does not appear that he has gotten an answer but the question and comment are still up on his FB page.

  106. August 15, 2011 10:47 am

    @Speak and all – If you would please use Orrin’s name in place of any other names (Orron, Oron, etc.). It will prevent confusion for new and existing readers.

  107. Speak Your Truth permalink
    August 15, 2011 11:07 am

    Amthrax~ Ok, At your request. 😦 I do see your point. 🙂

    Team Deception~ Wonder how long it will take before those questions get wiped off FB, LHOL!!

  108. August 15, 2011 11:50 am

    Speak, there is no way that he is leaving those comments up there by accident. Orrin is an internet hawk. So, it is possible that he is leaving the comments up there as part of a plan to “out” Mark Huber. Orrin doesn’t want to be the bad guy in this situation but if enough negative things are out there Orrin can simply say to Mark, “hey we tried but your bad for business and I am giving your team to someone else”. Just a thought.

  109. Rob Thomas permalink
    August 15, 2011 1:10 pm

    What’s the story with Mark Huber and operation cover up?? Did I miss something??

  110. Speak Your Truth permalink
    August 15, 2011 1:58 pm

    Heres is some GREAT questions for New Prospects to ask their potential ‘sponsor’ when they are being ‘recruited’ for the L.I.F.E. Team Monavie Training; Orrin Woodward; it is only part of the article from the FTC website:

    Asking Questions
    Here are some important questions to ask your sponsor and distributors at different levels of the organization. Their responses can help you detect false claims about the amount of money you may make and whether the business is a pyramid scheme.

    1.What are your annual sales of the product? How much product did you sell to distributors? What percentage of your sales were made to distributors?
    One sign of a pyramid scheme is if distributors sell more product to other distributors than they do to the public.

    2.What were your expenses last year, including money you spent on training and purchasing products? How much money did you make last year — that is, your income and bonuses minus your expenses? How much time did you spend last year on the business? How long have you been in the business? How many people are in your downline?
    It’s important to get a complete picture of how the plan works: not just how much money distributors make, but also how much time and money they spend on the plan, how long it takes to make money and how big a downline is needed to make money.

    3.What percentage of the money you made — income and bonuses minus your expenses — came from recruiting other distributors and selling them inventory or other items to get started?
    Another sign of a pyramid scheme is if the money you make depends more on recruiting — getting new distributors to pay for the right to participate in the plan — than on sales to the public.

    The FTC works for the consumer to prevent fraudulent, deceptive, and unfair business practices in the marketplace and to provide information to help consumers spot, stop, and avoid them. To file a complaint or to get free information on consumer issues, visit or call toll-free, 1-877-FTC-HELP (1-877-382-4357); TTY: 1-866-653-4261. The FTC enters consumer complaints into the Consumer Sentinel Network, a secure online database and investigative tool used by hundreds of civil and criminal law enforcement agencies in the U.S. and abroad.

    October 2009

    RSSRSS – Plain Language GuidanceRSS – Legal ResourcesRSS – BlogRSS – MultimediaRSS – EspanolSHARE OUR RESOURCES. HERE’S HOW.

    You can get the rest of the valuable information here:

  111. Speak Your Truth permalink
    August 15, 2011 2:05 pm

    Team Deception~ I got your point, but interesting he would leave the Matt Abraham question up, I would like to see the answer on that one! 🙂

  112. Speak Your Truth permalink
    August 15, 2011 2:10 pm


    The FTC questions are directly from their website,(I copied & pasted), none of them our my words except the first and last paragraph!

    I think they are catching on, using the language, and their direct questions couldn’t be more exact!!! Makes you wonder if they are reading this site and others? 🙂

  113. MWRascal permalink
    August 16, 2011 12:48 pm

    So for all of you who are complaining. Which book did you get your information from? I hope is a reputable book. Of course there’s a price to get information, isn’t there a price that has to be paid for everything that is worth having? For those of you who went to school, how much did you invest in your 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th…year ? What was the return on that investment in your 1st, 2nd, 3rd, … ? What was the return of investment after you got out ? Let me guess, debt + a job (with a limit on how much $$ you can make). I admire those who set out to accomplish great things, including all of the Team PC members. Excellence takes work, it takes having tough skin, it takes having character, it takes guts to chase your dream…. all the critics, show me your data, show me fruit our tree. Like they say, it takes only a mouth to have an opinion, I guess now it only takes a few minutes in front of the computer. Mediocre results in life do not take any effort, sitting in front of the TV will do. In the past, in order to criticize someone publicly people at least had to stand on a corner, distribute flyers or whatever, it took some work. Now, people with the most mediocre results have the ability to post whatever they want and what’s even worse, people actually believe their posts. Might as well sit around and wait for the next stimulus check, maybe that will convince you that the government will take care of you….

  114. August 16, 2011 1:12 pm

    MWRascal, I am a proud tea bagg’n republican that owns my own business, proudly pays taxes, pays fair wages providing jobs and I am happy with my results. From time to time I forge a few minutes out of my day to come on here to warn other potential prospects that are looking at team life to RUN. Run far far away. That does not mean that my results in life are mediocre. It means that I want to help others to see that they can learn from my mistakes and not waste years of precious time, money and energy chasing a fool’s dream. Team Life simply does not work.

  115. One time Fly that sat at the Team Conference Table permalink
    August 16, 2011 1:28 pm

    MWRascal – I am a self employed business owner, in an industry that allows me to stay at home with my family, and allows me to work from the house on a daily basis. I travel to locations aroiund the country, once again in an insdustry that I enjoy, and no one has to conviince me to do so. I, like Will, pay a fair wage to several employees around the country, within the same industry.

    I also come on here to share my first hand knowledge of the bogus behavior of your menotors.

    Here’s a question for you, and I really want you to answer this for us. Can you build this business to a point that you decide you no longer want to build it any larger, thus allowing you to retire from your regular job AND your MLM job. In other woirds can you get to a point where you can have a business that builds itself and you reap all the profits…(here’s a hint…I know the answer)

  116. Speak Your Truth permalink
    August 16, 2011 1:38 pm


    Complaining are you freaking kidding? Another team lifer in some WICKED DENIAL. Did you read this post and blog? Another lifer who avoids the questions and derails with bullsh*t about college costs and education! Why don’t you read the new post Orrin/QRUSH.

    Nobody is questioning the cost of a REAL education that has been beat to death and we all know there is no comparison, you forgot to mention you get a degree and a career if you never quit, and follow your dream! Just like your hypocrite gods you worship that use their degree’s to promote themselves to make them appear smart and use it for their credibility, you can’t have it both ways!

    You Team lifers are the only ones who come here and try to use that bogus comparison to try and ‘justify’ the cult, education rip-off scam, that uses deceptive and misleading recruiting techniques and flat out lie telling people they have a ‘unique job opportunity’!

    Very typical like we haven’t heard that same BS from every single Team lifer, who makes all their money off of others by selling those “reputable” books.

    Orrin and the PC you worship steals ours and others ‘profit-sharing’ and ‘teams’ that was the fruit on our tree, according to your definition, but Thank God we are no longer a part of the corrupt, illegal, immoral, and unethical shenanigans, that you are promoting.

    You better read the FTC website!

    Where is your fruit and why don’t you come on here with your real name, your team lifers friends call you a Coward, how’s that for some team support little rascal?

  117. Speak Your Truth permalink
    August 16, 2011 3:09 pm


    You ask which book did we get our information from?

    Let me say this once, it is called the BOOK of our EXPERIENCES, you can read about it here for FREE, can’t get any more ‘reputable’ than that! There is nothing that trumps experience!

    You are right about 1 thing there is definitely a PRICE to pay, you are clueless what price our families and children have paid to build the lifestyle of the cons you follow and worship to have it all stolen!

    So get prepared to pay yours!

    You will be the one with your hands out waiting for a stimulus check!

    Don’t believe us? Check for yourself, tell your upline you want to cash in on your passive, residual, ongoing, willable, b-type buisness income that they PROMISE EVERYONE for bringing huge numbers (you probably only have a tiny little mediocre team, if that) but those on here brought thousands upon thousands individually, to the Team and they STOLE that passive, residual, blah, blah LIES from us!

    Let us know what your upline tells you! LHOL

  118. August 16, 2011 3:29 pm

    I’d like to comment on SYT’s post of the FTC questions – they definitely should be addressed, and will protect the consumer, however, from my experience, TEAMers won’t disclose that information to “prevent jealousy” or to “prevent feeling of hopelessness”. I know because in a meeting with my former upline and her upline, I asked about their incomes and that’s what they told me. I was losing hope and really wanted to know if this business was working for them, just to give myself something to hold on to, and I remember feeling so disappointed at their answer.

    Personally, I think if they’re withholding the answers, that means they really aren’t making money at all.

  119. Speak Your Truth permalink
    August 16, 2011 4:54 pm


    I believe you are right. I can’t believe we bought into that garbage and it was always secretive what others made! Part of the ‘secrecy’ was because they obviously new they were a pyramid scheme. Hindsight is always 20/20.

    When we were in and others asked questions about how much we made (when were making money) we would tell them similar things like; ” Would you ask your boss how much he was making? or “If we showed you what we make it might slow you down?” Because we had been told for years (when we weren’t making money) not to tell people by listening how handle those objections.

    The most common one used; “You wouldn’t believe me if I told you!” Anyone who uses that, guaranteed they AREN”T making any money!!! LOL MOST weren’t making any.

    Shameful, yes, I know but everything about the cult/scam is shameful!

    Sometimes we did tell people but more for us we never wanted to look like we were bragging.

    Hope life is treating you well! 🙂

  120. August 16, 2011 8:18 pm

    Hi, SYT, thanks for responding, I am making progress with my debt I’ve incurred with TEAM, and I hope and pray other ex-TEAMers are also making headway and chipping away at their debts’ principles as well. It’s funny, because Woodward and co would have you think that you ***NEED*** TEAM to get you out of debt and have a good family life. Well, I hope Woodward and Brady would read my next statement: I’m on welfare and I’m eating away at my debt’s principle and spending lots of time with my family – my children! Ain’t that great? And I’m doing it without TEAM! No complaints from this chick, Rascal 😉

  121. switch permalink
    August 17, 2011 11:02 am

    Sshhhhhhhh…..I’m in the middle of reading Merchants of Deception written by Eric Scheibeler. Would he be a reputable source? He is of course an ex amway diamond who woke up and came forward, correct?

    Quit being so F’ING rude….dickhead.

  122. One time Fly that sat at the Team Conference Table permalink
    August 17, 2011 11:09 am

    Rascal….I’m still waiting for your answer….

  123. Speak Your Truth permalink
    August 17, 2011 12:53 pm


    That is awesome, funny how you have some money to work with once you quit letting the Greedy thieves siphon it from you! It is amazing how much ‘anyway’ money a person has to get out of debt, once they quit letting the cons steal it! It is also glad to hear you are spending quality time in your priorities!

    Switch & Fly~ LHOL

  124. bill smith permalink
    August 17, 2011 12:54 pm

    Coward, no where on here is your name, theyv’e never erected a statue for a critic…

  125. Speak Your Truth permalink
    August 17, 2011 1:01 pm

    Switch~ This is what Qrush says about Eric, now I don’t remember what group Eric was a part of, I will have to look it up in my book. But this is how Orrin/Qrush would treat someone that he I am sure sucked up to and had put a part of his story in Eric’s book that was added later. He is a User, Manipulator, and Backstabber and is the worst form of…. never mind!!! But how would Eric feel about Qrush’s(orrin) comments and what he is implying here?

    “Eric Schiebler, was never part of WWDB and has no clue or concept of how the WWDB training system is run. How can someone who has never been part of WWDB’s training system comment on the performance and quality of the results? Compare the results of the achievers in WWDB to the results of the critics and you determine who to listen to.”

  126. August 17, 2011 1:56 pm

    @billsmith – If you’re a part of TEAM, you should know that multiple sources say your leader, Orrin Woodward, is the anonymous blogger Qrush from 2004-2006. Orrin was also instrumental in the creation of the various anonymous blogs criticizing Amway/Quixtar back in 2007-2008. What do you say about that?

    Regarding my pseudonym, please read this post.

  127. TOD permalink
    August 17, 2011 4:32 pm

    wait…. ‘bill smith’ said to use your real name? I am going to need to see some ID Mr. “Bill Smith”. TOD are my initials. Tony Ortiz Dominguez. No coward here.

  128. Speak Your Truth permalink
    August 17, 2011 6:51 pm

    Bill Smith~

    I am sorry did you miss something? Orrin himself has been an ANONYMOUS blogger maybe you want to take that cowardly comment up with him, I’m pretty sure there won’t ever be a ‘statue erected’ of him either nor of your team mates because 99% of your team mates come here anonymous, but hey let us know where the statue of YOU is?

    Geez I thought you all were so nice and encouraging to each other to call Orrin and your team mates cowards isn’t very nice.

    You could save the statue quote, that has been around since Amway, oh you did know that is where Orrin’s leaders built his buisness in Amway, then Orrin, PC and a few others lost a 25 million dollar lawsuit, right? Who is your upline Bill, I don’t believe we recoginize your name, what would your rank be?

    No one on here has a problem with being anonymous, that should be obvious, except when you lifers and Orrin bashs anonymous bloggers when he himself did that wouldn’t that make him a hypocrite? Yes, it would.

    I don’t have to repeat what Amthrax said.

  129. MWRascal permalink
    August 18, 2011 7:36 am

    I find it amusing that people spend so much time finding reasons to complain or should I say “excuses” for not performing in anything. So they do the next best thing in their mind… complain to the masses. Congratulations, you are an example of why the world’s economy is in the shape it is.
    While some of you have been “waiting” for my response, those of us in TEAM have been out there making a difference in people’s lives. Perhaps your complaining, negative attitudes and disbelief will convince the single mother who before she joined TEAM was struggling to put food on the table and now is able to stay home a couple of more days a week with her kids. Perhaps your nagging will convince the husband and wife who 6 months ago were considering divorce, and now after using the TEAM system for the last couple of months, have made a decision to restore their marriage. Perhaps you can tell their kids that their parents got ripped off by the system which resulted in keeping their family together. Question is, what difference are you making in other people’s lives? My guess is that you don’t have time as you are too busy complaining and crying through your posts blaming TEAM and everyone else. Here’s a thought, take some responsibility for both your actions and your results. Toughen up cookie!
    Leaders are created in the battlefield of life, not by nagging and crying in the internet. The thing about community is that “it works”, even in this case where a community has decided to follow someone’s opinion, someone who has no credibility, no fruit in the tree, no results to show for, no vehicle to help anyone create an income, and most of all no guts!
    I’ve never been involved with Amway, and quite honestly I don’t have any problems with that company. I am sure that it has its flaws, which company doesn’t?…. But I’ve also heard some people love their products and are excited about that. My response to them is… great, keep going, I encourage them to keep fighting the status quo even if it is with a business that has a bad reputation. Anything is better than nothing!
    Next time you feel like complaining about TEAM, or any other organization for that matter I encourage you to stand in front of a mirror and take a good look at the reason why you don’t have any results to show for —- that’s right “you”.
    Remember, when you join TEAM or any other organization who is doing something to impact the lives of people in this country, everything is optional – including the income. In other words, you can choose to stay broke! Oh wait, no I forgot… the stimulus check is coming, right ? better sit down.

    I’m actually considering on taking all these comments and putting a book together at one point titled “The thinking that sunk America” – So keep it up people, the more “stupid” content I have the better the book will get.


  130. I Quit ( and glad I Did) permalink
    August 18, 2011 8:26 am

    Rascal- And we’re writing a book here entitled “Observations of people who stopped thinking critically, and then started to again.”

  131. Steve (Peachy) permalink
    August 18, 2011 8:36 am


    Please enlighten us with your qualifications for being a L.I.F.E. coach, a financial planner, a marriage counselor, etc. etc. etc. Please tell us how you are making a difference in peoples lives. Is it a good positive win win difference, or is it a win lose difference where the PC makes their money, and 99% of the people involved with Team lose money, and find themselves with not only broken dreams, broken bank accounts, but also broken relationships? Please tell us how much money you have made with this business? How long have you been involved? In other words, give us your facts. Don’t just show up and rip on us without stating your accomplishments or lack of in Team. Please tell us the amount of guts it takes to walk away from a six figure income in Team, because you start to see the lying, cheating, misleading statements, taking of teams, slandering of character because you start to question what is going on to the PC. The problem with you and others like you, is you just assume that these people here have just kicked the tires in Team. If you and others like you would take the time and see that these people on here were in the inner circle of Team, and have first hand experiences with facts to back them up, it might be time for you and those involved with Team to do the standing in front of the mirror. As for the book writing that is a great title, but the reason does not lie with the people here. It is because of greed, manipulation, lies, cheating, slandering, name calling, that is prevelant in the very organization you are so feverishly defending. One more thing, you say “anything is better than nothing,” really, get a grip. I expect better than that out of you.

  132. MWRascal permalink
    August 18, 2011 9:15 am

    I love it…. more comments please! This book isn’t going to publish if there aren’t more posts like the recent ones. Like Tim Tebow said “I appreciate that”. I never thought it would be this much fun reading these posts.

    For those of you who are asking about how big of a team, how much money, etc… well, let’s just say that we are not complaining and this is only the beginning. Now for those of you who were in the inner circle (not sure what inner circle you would qualify for…) but let’s assume that you were in the inner circle of TEAM at one point. Well, remind me to not ever join you in anything you do, as if it doesn’t work out for you, you show your true character through a waste-of-time website….typical of the backwards thinking that’s killing America. Congratulations people, you are about to make history in the future text books as the reason why we lost our freedom. Of course I am going to give credit to the site and to all of you “courageous” people…… it’s looking like this book could be a top seller. 🙂

    By the way, I am in the inner circle of a very large American company and you should all hear all the lies, scams, etc… they are pulling in there and what they tell the employees. You’ll do better off starting a site to address that… I forgot, you probably believe what you’ve heard in the news, that we are just fine and the economy is improving, and that jobs will be coming back to America. Better sit down for that one too.

    I’ll hold from posting any comments for a while, but please, I need more of your “special” comments to have more content for the book.
    Have fun with the posts…..

  133. August 18, 2011 9:31 am

    MWRascal, I love your posts. Please keep them coming. I love a good laugh.

    Orrin has been telling people for decades that Team and its leaders will go down in the history books, blah blah blah, PUKE!

    If love that you think your name and Mr. Woodward’s name will appear next to Thomas Jefferson, FDR, Kennedy, Reagan, Bill Gates or Steve Jobs one day in history books.

    That is AWESOME!! Keep your posts coming handsome!

  134. I Quit ( and glad I Did) permalink
    August 18, 2011 11:07 am

    Rascal, you rascal. You said we’re here on this “waste of time website”. Has anyone noticed that he’s here too?

  135. August 18, 2011 2:49 pm

    @Rascal – Thank you for reminding me why I’ve made the best decision of my life, in leaving Team! You my friend have obviously attended one too many Men’s Leaderships! LOL. Your “Fired Up”! But you know what…..keep doing what your doing…..your right on track….proud of ya! LOL. Your ridiculous rantings about changing people’s lives, saving the world, and making a difference are all things we’ve heard before! Let me guess… you’re also going to a million people as well! Well…. sadly all your ramblings don’t change the little things I like to call “THE FACTS”. You own nothing….this is not your business, it’s Orrin’s! The people your “helping” are being pulled into a financial thrashing machine that took many people on this site years to break free from. These people were not “Thumb suckers”, “Complainers”, or people with “Negative Attitudes”….they were on the front lines. They’ve seen the “Fruit on the tree” and found the fruit to be ROTTEN! You were right about one thing…. Community is key…..and we are starting to build ourselves a pretty good community of people, who think the Team “Fruit Tree” is rotting from the inside out! Sure hope it doesn’t up root and land on you Rascal! LOL! TIMBER!!!!!!!!!

  136. Lyk permalink
    August 18, 2011 9:00 pm

    I am criticizing what I believe to be a bad blog. And, as an American myself, I am free to do so.

  137. switch permalink
    August 19, 2011 6:28 am

    “In other words, you can choose to stay broke!”

    Better sit down,…..I’m not broke. Far from it, actually.

  138. switch permalink
    August 19, 2011 6:41 am

    “Of course there’s a price to get information, isn’t there a price that has to be paid for everything that is worth having?”

    Tell me the price I paid for my family.

  139. switch permalink
    August 19, 2011 6:59 am

    “Mediocre results in life do not take any effort,…”


    ….Trust me, my results in life a far from “mediocre”.

  140. Works Like a Charm permalink
    August 19, 2011 8:35 am

    Editor’s Note: This comment was posted from the same IP address as MWRascal, so take it with a grain of salt.

    I don’t get it…. I just joined TEAM about 8 weeks ago and here’s what I have seen:


    LIFE Book: $23.95
    EBC: $60 (for 4 monhts)
    Monavie Registration: $39
    RVL order: (100 points) $162 with shipping

    I attended a seminar for $30 (it was great)
    I went to Leadership Meteing in Ohio for $250 (Including tickets/hotel/gas)

    So far:

    I feel 100% better with the RVL compare to other things I’ve tried. I lost 15 lbs.
    My first payment arrived 3 weeks after I joined $80
    I now have 10 customers, plus I did some retail sales which created profit of $230
    since I now have 2 teams, this month my payment went up to $140
    we just had 6 more people join this week
    and with the LIFE announcement, I will start getting paid by Team as well.

    So I am confused…everyone here is saying that quitting was the best thing you did. But for what I have seen, I feel better, I love the information, and I am getting paid.

    I am pretty close to breaking even from my initial investment and it’s not even 3 months yet. I can’t think of any other business that I could have purchased or gotten into where I could have gotten these results.

    The people who have joined our team love the information and we are not forcing them to join, we are only sharing the concept. People are looking for a way out, yes it does take some work, but what doesn’t ?

    Everything posted here is the opposite of my experience so far…but what do I know? All I had was a big dream and hunger to work hard.

  141. Speak Your Truth permalink
    August 19, 2011 10:32 am

    Will the LIES, EVER STOP?

  142. Speak Your Truth permalink
    August 19, 2011 10:39 am

    BTW~ LIES DO NOT ‘work like a charm’~ YOU have ZERO credibility here, you might as well go post somewhere else with your lies~ YOU have been found out, Do none of you team li(f)ers learn anything about the truth? Un freaking believable!

    How do you seriously live with yourself? You haven’t a conscience, you are a perfect fit and see you are following and representing your master liar~ Orrin to a tee!

  143. switch permalink
    August 19, 2011 10:59 am

    To answer your question Speak, no….. they won’t.

  144. Speak Your Truth permalink
    August 19, 2011 11:05 am

    I agree, but I can’t believe this! MWlittleliarRascal & “Works like a Charm” maybe is Orrin sure lies like him!

  145. August 19, 2011 11:06 am

    @Works Like a Charm

    From the sound of it you have worked hard losing that 15 pounds. Or is it a therapeutic effect because you have joined. Probably you never have met such nice people? Wake up and read the stories what happened with people who started to have critical questions.

    Also, to make a right comparison with the real business world you should also include your hours you had to put in to obtain this income. In the long run you will see you are better of having a job with a minimum wage income. Till this far it shows it only has cost you money!

    @all the other “MLM nonbelievers” of the magnificent website
    Keep on doing what your doing, and inform the people about this huge scam. I think all the “believers” in the world really start to hate this website, because they will have a hard time getting new people like myself (and therefore dollars) in.

  146. Works Like a Charm permalink
    August 19, 2011 11:16 am

    unless the bank account is lying to me…I still got paid. Should I send you a copy of my statement? Or is your ego too big to accept that maybe there are people being compensated for thier work?

    Shame that you speak of credibility, what’s yours by the way? “Speak Your Truth” – what truth? Just the one that you want to hear?

    Let’s make a deal… you keep the negative posts coming and I’ll let Team and Monavie keep the $$ coming to my account… I can deal with that.

    by the way, thanks for your responses. I got my answer, stick to what I do and stay as far away from negative people.

    I obviously came to the right place for my answer.

  147. Speak Your Truth permalink
    August 19, 2011 11:29 am

    Works As A Charm~

    You didn’t address that you are the same person as MWRASCAL from the same IP address as Amthrax has pointed out. Address that , I owe you NOTHING to prove my crediblity!

  148. switch permalink
    August 19, 2011 11:39 am

    No deal, Spanky.

  149. TOD permalink
    August 19, 2011 11:55 am

    It’s still not your business, it is Qrush’s build and replace business of which you are operating at a negative cash flow and probably will for a long time to come. Or you will become profitable like a lot of us did and have to deal with the fact that hundreds of people on your team lose money every single month.

    BTW, Qrush can change the deal anytime he wants to and it will affect your part of his business whether you like it or not.

  150. Arturo permalink
    August 19, 2011 12:53 pm

    Works like a charm, you are sick! This is not about the money. I could care less how much your check is for. People here are not upset because they did not make money. The people posting here were some of the top money earners in the Team. This is about a scam, dishonesty, and the hypocrisy that these leaders saw once they got very close to Orrin, Chris, and Tim. These so called leaders are professional liars. This is why all of us left. This is why we are trying to warn others so people like you don’t lose your money and years of your life serving these guys only to find out later you were used and discarded once you were of no value to them. I could care less how much money you got paid from these clowns. It proves nothing. It does not prove this so called business works. It is a Ponzi scheme so you can be proud that you took someone else’s money and deposited it in your bank account.

  151. Shannon permalink
    August 20, 2011 6:11 pm

    As soon as you can reveal your name MLM punisher I don’t really think you should be saying anything. It takes a person with courage and character to stand behind what he believes.

  152. das permalink
    August 21, 2011 11:53 am

    I joined TEAM in 2005 because I trusted the person that contacted me and I wanted to help others. That was my main motivator, I wanted to make a difference. I was all in for 3 years, I signed up for everything I could. I listened to more cd’s a day than Jim Martin, lol. I invested a huge amount of my retirement in a “trunk” and contacted everyone I knew. I have been to Tim and Amy’s house and met Orrin and Chris. I gave it my best shot and pretty much gave up after realizing I had been lied to. I asked my upline many questions and in hind sight I see that I was given half truths or flat out lies from the very beginning. Lies about how much money it takes to be successful, lies about team building strategies, lies about Quixtar not being Amway, and the lie about how much money he was making and the checks he flaunted.

    I like what Steve posted on July 20, 2011: “Please if you don’t believe what is beeing posted here, go ask your RT upline what ever happened to Jeff Granger, Greg Rau, Tom Cullen, Dan Abraham, Mike Foos, Rick Reed, Chris Smith, Randy Haugen, Billy Florence, Mark Crawford, etc. etc. etc. just to name a few of the many who had their teams decimated by the goings on inside Team.”

    Where are these leaders today? I have met everyone of the leaders mentioned and respected them until their stories changed to reflect what direction the TEAM was going. Like I said, I listened to a lot of cd’s. I don’t regret that because I learned a lot about leadership and myself from reading books and listening to those cd’s. I do regret the friendships and respect I lost from so many friends because I was part of the lying and deception of the TEAM. It’s all about money and less about making a difference. Sorry Orrin, you aren’t my hero any longer.

  153. guest permalink
    August 21, 2011 2:55 pm

    hahahaha. u people have no clue what you are saying. u assume since it didnt work for u it’s some sort of scheme. but play the flamingo and stick ur head in the sand thats fine but when u pull it up, the industrial age will be gone, information will be in full motion and u will be left behind. people of integrity expect to be believed, and when they aren’t then let time prove them right

  154. August 21, 2011 3:51 pm

    @ Shannon – Whether or not you know my name is not an excuse to ignore the FACTS! You found your way onto this site…I’d encourage you to continue your search for the truth.

    @ Das – Welcome here, and thanks for sharing some of your story. You’ll find that you are in company of many others who have felt the same emotional and financial pain you experienced! Team always taught that “It Takes A Community” to make a difference. Welcome to the community dedicated to getting the truth out there!

    @ Guest – All I can say is….this blog is making an impact! We are getting more and more new commenters all the time! If you are on Team…. and have found this site….keep reading! You’ll be mad at first….and that’s OK! It’s part of the process. Dig deeper, ask questions, reengage your critical thinking! It’s OK to admit to yourself that you feel like something is not quite right! Like the Team teaches… the longest journey starts with one step. You’ve made your first step coming onto this site…..continue the journey…YOUR future may depend on it!

  155. One time Fly that sat at the Team Conference Table permalink
    August 21, 2011 3:53 pm

    Dear guest, I won’t even attempt to address your drive by attempt to paint the folks here as people who actually don’t have long term (see many years) of experience with team.

    However, just wanted to help you look a little less like a fool then next time you try using birds as an analogy when trying to make a point.

    Flamingos – a bird that hangs around marshes muddy bodies of water, many times on one leg.

    Ostrich – that’s the bird you were really trying to think of, it’s the bird that is notorious for sticking it’s head in the sand when confronted with true danger…

    Now here’s a proper use of both as an analgy..

    The Team PC stand around their Fiefdom trying not to step in the crappy mess they are in, one foot in the muck, and one foot attempting to stay clean..sorta like the pink flamingos

    Meanwhile, our friend “guest” when confronted with the brutal facts that his/her “make believe gurus’ are doing everything possible to grab as much money as possible before their entire empire crumbles, does a very good impression of an ostrich with it’s head in the sand.

  156. August 21, 2011 4:06 pm

    @webelieved – Honestly….I feel sorry for a lot of these people. It’s hard to remember sometimes that if this were 4 or 5 years ago….I’d be saying the same things, and defending the Team from the highest mountain top! It’s kinda funny… but it’s like when we were building the Team…. “Always remember the new guy”! A lot of new people are hitting this site right now looking for answers. They might only read a couple of posts….they might read more. We’ll still get the drive by’s ….. but at least they are here! I reminds me of the scene from Dumb and Dumber…. “So your saying…..I’ve still got a chance!”. I hope people continue their search for truth on this site….like I said, it’s not my future that’s hanging in the balance…I’m already OUT!

  157. August 21, 2011 4:36 pm

    @ Webelieved – I’m afraid that’s probably a question for Amthrax! I’m not much better! As for Team leaders on here trying to save their “Business”….how could that be? Shouldn’t they be out there…running the roads….and building numbers? Besides if they spent time on here, that would take away from promoting the newest CD… Like for example…. Team 647 – Head, Heart, Hunger which has been updated (again and again)! 😉

  158. das permalink
    August 21, 2011 5:12 pm

    Thanks for the welcome. The person I spoke of who showed me the plan was on the PC, triple 100 and founders emerald, so you can probably figure out who it was. I am not associated with the team now, I was one of the ones lost in the shuffle in that 6 month period between Quixtar and the purple juice. When I questioned what I was to do, he didn’t have an answer and some how people in my los were ahead of me. It didn’t matter that I was showing the plan at least 15 times a month. Like I said, I did learn some great habits of not watching tv so much but reading instead. I am also glad I don’t have to please another man or men today. I can look in the mirror and I like who I see. Orrin Woodward is not my master and I don’t have to answer to any man, only God. Can the PC members say that? 🙂

    Thanks for the site!

  159. Steve (Peachy) permalink
    August 21, 2011 5:35 pm


    Welcome to the site. As has been mentioned here and in other posts, and threads, all of us feel a responsibility to you, and those out there trying to search for the truth about Team. Its is refreshing when someone like yourself asks questions, and is interested in getting as much information as possible from people who have been huge leaders within Team. It is our goal to educate you to the best of our abilities.

  160. das permalink
    August 21, 2011 5:35 pm

    Oh, and I found this site as I was searching for Orrin and the Team. I do this about every 6 months or so, wondering what could have been I guess. I believe in keeping an open mind. I still read his blogs and give him credit for bieng a great motivator and speaker. I might even join him again if he paid me back all the money I spent……

    nah, I don’t think so, lol. 🙂

  161. Steve (Peachy) permalink
    August 21, 2011 5:38 pm


    I think that Head, Heart, and Hunger cd is now L.I.F.E. 001 lol

  162. Steve (Peachy) permalink
    August 22, 2011 5:47 am


    I got to believe that they are going to rebrand all of their tools, etc. to this new L.I.F.E. business. So all of your current tools which cost thousands of dollars, is now obsolete. I remember going from Team of Destiny to Team, and then to MV. I made the switch from TOD to Team, but when we switched to MV, my senses stopped me. I never got on board with all the extra tool purchases they promoted when we made the switch to MV. I only bought what I thought I needed at that time. Still a huge waste of money. Quick question to everyone out there. I know that I threw out what I thought was every tape, and cd from TOD, Team, Team MV. My question is, do you still find these things in obscure places as you look around the house for other things? I still find this stuff. It seems its like Hotel California, you can check out anytime you like, but you can’t ever leave. Lol

  163. This is a shame! permalink
    August 22, 2011 3:31 pm

    Lol at this article! Any fool can criticize,condemn and complain and most fools do. It this really a site dedicated to doing just that?? And this many people paying attention? Seems like a small part of a much bigger distraction going on in America today, what a shame!

  164. One time Fly that sat at the Team Conference Table permalink
    August 22, 2011 4:24 pm

    @This is a shame. Welcome to the blog that is causing a stir to TEAM. I recommend that you spend some time reading the many posts and follow on comments. I am sure with a little bit of critical thinking you will come to understand what the objective is here.

    Just for a little back ground. The follow on comments on the blog submissions by Amthrax are being submitted by more than a few former Round Table Members of TEAM, and more than a few former Employees at TEAM. All of whom have first hand knowledge of the real story going on behind the scene.

    Please take your time going thru this Blog, you don’t have to read it all tonight. Have fun, let us know what you think.

    Again, welcome.

  165. Speak Your Truth permalink
    August 22, 2011 6:00 pm

    This is a shame~

    What is it that you find so funny about this article? Spending at least $500 per month; month after month, so that 99% can fail by losing money? That;s the SHAME! Is there something funny about those facts or do you have some new updated ones that Amthrax could post?

    Did the team do away with the Power Player Program, The Top 50, Tool Trunks, Majors Leaderships, Mens and Ladies Leadership, First Night Packs, and all the other multiples of Packs, All their branded clothing, their webinars and projectors, that a leader MUST have?When did they stop inventory loading or haven’t they yet? 12 cases for leaders to buy at a thousand dollars a crack (per month)?

    Did the PC QUIT touting and promoting to everyone, that the tools were ‘optional’ but so is YOUR SUCCESS? What would be the point in them buying all that xtra stuff if it is only optional?

    Because if they didn’t( and we know they didn’t) then we know overall that $500 is petty cash to what the REAL leaders will spend on all that I just mentioned. How would we know, We spent hundreds of thousands on that system. That is insulting, not funny.

    I am glad you noticed this has caused a much bigger problem in American, we feel the same way and that is why we are here and is the reason Punisher and Amthrax wrote this article, to show others there is a problem; the liefers don’t disclose this so others can make an informed decison based on the whole truth.

    Because we know the Team isn’t honest enough to tell others UPFRONT what the REAL cost are. Thanks for visiting, and good luck reading the rest of the site. I do hope you can take it more serious, because we are dead serious.

  166. Steve (Peachy) permalink
    August 22, 2011 7:50 pm

    This is a Shame;

    Anybody can criticize, condemn, and complain, and most people do when they have opinions, and don’t have facts to back them up. Did you notice no name calling, ie “fools” to quote you, which people do to try to justify their position. Come back again when you have something worth posting.

  167. August 23, 2011 4:38 am

    I told you guys they just rereleased the “Updated” Head, Heart, Hunger! Isn’t that quote straight off that CD?! LOL.

    @ Fly – That’s the best line ever! “Welcome to the blog that is causing a stir to Team”. Indeed! Come one….come all! The facts are there to see….and straight from the horse’s mouth! (No Orrin… I’m not calling you a horse….settle down).

  168. One time Fly that sat at the Team Conference Table permalink
    August 23, 2011 7:44 am

    @MLM Punisher….very good call on the clarification of your intent….just a warning to all..if any of us ever use a farm animal in an analogy to hammer home a point, it would do us well to make sure we are clear in that we are not calling any of Team Leaders NOR their spouses those farm animals….just sayin…

  169. August 23, 2011 7:55 am

    @webelieved and @mlmpunisher – If you find the original comment that you made, you’ll see a “permalink” link next to your name. Right-click and choose Copy Link Location (or similar sounding word) to copy the link to your clipboard.

    Then, when filling out the comment, paste the link into the Website field. This will make your name clickable and let readers go directly to the desired comment.

  170. This is a shame! permalink
    August 24, 2011 12:04 pm

    The quote was from Ben Franklin, and I respect your opinions. I stumbled across this site and feel that our energy and effort could be used in a better way thats all. I feel so blessed that we have the freedom to speak freely as we do!

  171. One time Fly that sat at the Team Conference Table permalink
    August 24, 2011 12:16 pm

    @This is a shame!, can you explain how you stumbled across this website? For example, I was specifically searching using the terms Orrin Woodward, Monavie, Team and scam several months ago when I found this site. What or how did you find this blog?

    I again, recommend that you take some time to read the many postings and then you are free to form your own opinion.

  172. Speak Your Truth permalink
    August 24, 2011 1:01 pm

    This is a shame~

    Unless, I missed some where else you posted, your 1st and 2nd post have a totally different message and tone all together.

    I do agree partially, with being blessed with the freedom to speak freely. We don’t have 100% freedom to speak freely ( due to the lack of using our real names or the risk of a lawsuit) because of Orrin’s track record of suing ‘critics.

    In other words it really isn’t complete freedom of speech, in my opinion.. I too am curious how you stumbled across this site.

  173. Ryan permalink
    August 27, 2011 10:05 am

    It amazes me how so many people are are willing to criticize others openly on the internet where their names and faces are nowhere to be seen and yet when they’re on the spot with their name and face in the open are to scared to say anything because they don’t want to face the consequences. It is openly stated that if you follow the PROVEN TEAM system that you WILL NOT fail. So all of those who quit and complain to others that it does not work, they personally DID NOT DO the work for it. You face the consequences for YOUR actions. I am PROUDLY a member of TEAM and always will be. I know first hand that it works, but only when YOU do the work for YOUR success. IT WILL NOT BE HANDED TO YOU. So if you get in expecting to get rich and have success with little to no effort then do not get in. Your success relies soley on YOUR actions.

    Ryan Pflederer

  174. August 27, 2011 1:29 pm

    @Ryan – Good luck to you. Check back with us when you’re a Round Table member and privy to some of the behind-the-scenes action in TEAM.

  175. switch permalink
    August 27, 2011 7:47 pm

    Pflederer says-
    “It is openly stated that if you follow the PROVEN TEAM system that you WILL NOT fail.”

    what a f’ing lie……. you’re talking about your old, washed up system, jacka$$. How in the world can you even give credit to your new L.I.F.E. system if it hasn’t even officially launched yet? Did I miss something or am I hearing the same ol’ deception here?

    Pflederer, another walking LIEfer.

  176. August 28, 2011 6:31 am

    @Ryan – Thanks for commenting from your perspective. However the one thing your comments didn’t do was address the original post! Do you disagree with the information about the costs involved? Was I off track? Is this really “Criticism”….or just the facts about what it costs to be involved? Also….food for thought. What would happen if you did “Succeed”? Is this really YOUR “Business”? Could it all be taken away? Read more from this blog to learn the TRUTH!

  177. Speak Your Truth permalink
    August 28, 2011 7:04 am


    I too want to thank you for posting. From whom specifically told you it was a “PROVEN TEAM system that you will NOT FAIL and we DID NOT DO the work?

    Seems you are real confident when you say we DID NOT DO the work, but yet you know none of us?

    One last word of caution; be careful using your statement:

    “I am PROUDLY a member of TEAM and always will be.”

    Let me explain and emphasize the word ALWAYS, that could cause you some serious regrets in the future, just a caution for your own sake.

  178. David Tripp permalink
    September 4, 2011 6:25 am

    Did any of you ever make money?

    All that you listed is all optional!!

    Not accurate information at all.

    Where are the positive commits it’s says there are out there why haven’t they been listed?

  179. Speak Your Truth permalink
    September 4, 2011 12:44 pm

    David Tripp~

    You state:”All that you listed is all optional!!”…and to use your own words that would be;”Not accurate information at all.” Did you forget it is optional, BUT SO IS YOUR SUCCESS? Minor oversight, I am sure. 😉

    The “passive, residual, ongoing, willable, b-type business income, WE EARNED…. they stole. Does that answer your question?

    Positive commits; you mean comments? Read the first sentence in the post directly above yours.

    You must be ‘new’, keep reading….

  180. LRoberts permalink
    September 5, 2011 1:02 am

    First – I stayed up reading this blog way later than I intended to because its so interesting. So thank you for that.
    Second – Thanks for confirming my suspicion about this topic.

    On Aug 31st, my cousin very randomly invited me to go to a seminar. She stated “I’m very excited about what the speaker is going to go over” and I asked her what it was about, she replied “Living intentionally for Excellence.” She also mentioned that this was some “leadership guru named Chris Brady.” Anyway, I was immediately suspicious of the invitation because 1 – we’re cousins, but not that close to one another, and she lives fairly far away 2 – she didn’t call me she texted, which seemed out of character for her. The content of the text also seemed scripted and out of character for the language she usually uses.3 – her family already had some prior history with Amway that I knew about.

    Lucky for me, I was REALLY tired that day anyway and opted not to go. For whatever reason I started thinking about her invitation and I wanted to research this person. I started researching and eventually found this blog, which I’m thankful for. I was already a bit leery of this “seminar” and I’m SO glad I didn’t go. I guess this text messaging tactic is something that they are teaching now too, eh? Just pisses me off that my own cousin is looking at me as a “business opportunity” for her instead of family. That’s enough for me to want to disown her. I would never do that to one of my family members because it is deceptive.

    I’m a proud small business owner, a business that I brought up on my own and without investing into any stupid schemes. So, I attest to the fact that if people want to have a business they can, and they don’t need these MLM-Amway-yahoos to help them do it. It just takes sweat equity and time to build a business, but it really doesn’t take a HUGE $500 a month investment to be successful.

    On second thought, what these “inner circle” MLM guys are doing is pretty damn smart and deceptive….if only I had thought of this type of scheme earlier…. LOL just kidding. That’s just mean.

  181. used to be "all-in" permalink
    September 5, 2011 7:27 am

    *Re-posted from the Tyson from the Midwest post as it is also applicable under this entry*

    Editor’s note: removed Tyson’s full name at his request

    Milan K – Not sure if you’ve asked your upline “how do I go fast?”, but I’m sure they will show you the “Power Player” checklist once you’re gotten enough CD’s in you and you’re ready for it. You mentioned above:

    “when I saw the Leadership material, I am using it and i hate to tell you, if someone is (s)pending the exorbitant amount of money on this as you claim, then they obviously missed the Finance package which is one of the best sellers!”

    Well, since you seem to think $500 per month is a ridiculous number to spend on “your” business (which maybe it would be, if you’re only giving partial effort…but then you’d have a 0% chance of success, rather than 1%), I pulled out my handy-dandy Power Player checklist (and also checked current prices on the EBC and MV virtual office) and started going down the list:

    1. You are “on system” – subscribing to the full training system
    – Leadership package – $111 per month
    – 2 Standing Order Tickets (if single, just one) – $50 / month

    Now as you’ll find out as you get more experience, the “full” training system won’t be enough if you really want to make it big. They will also STRONGLY recommend the AGO Series ($21 / month, DVD of month ($10), 2nd Book of Month ($15), Leadership Book of Month ($15) and additional SOT’s (up to a total of 4, or $100 / month) which will “help” push you to go Each One, Reach One each month and reach your Turbo goals. Also, you’ll eventually start qualifying to receive consignment tickets from your upline…now in a perfect world, every single person in your downline would pay you for the seminar tickets that you move to them each month, but I’ll guarantee you that you’ll spend a whole lot of $$ on this out of your own personal pocket over time.

    2. Subscribe to E.B.C. – $15 / month

    3. Attend all local Open Meetings – $40 / month if married ($20 / month single)

    As you build your team, you probably will eventually be encouraged (or it will just happen), that you’ll start building a long distance team that isn’t close to any of the major live open meeting locations. So this will cost you $25 minimum each week in order to receive the webcast through your EBC…but what if it’s a new location and you don’t yet have 5 people attending ($5 / person)? Oh, I forgot, you’ll have to eat that cost yourself. And all guests are free…so you’ll eat their webcast costs as well.

    This also doesn’t include the periodic Super Opens that take place with the PC…these are twice the normal cost of an open ($10 per person, $50 minimum for a webcast). Again, if you’re a real builder and you have multiple locations across the country tuning in, you my friend (or one of your downlines), will be eating any additional costs if people don’t show up. And what if you have one friend in a particular location that you want to see the event (but don’t have any other teammates in the area)? Just order them a “guest” link for the webcast…this is free for them to watch – but YOU will have to pay the $25 (or $50 for a Super Open) in order for them to experience it. It’s all about COMMUNITY you know?

    4. Men’s Leadership events – $10 / month (typically 8 per year)

    5. Attend all Leadership Conventions – $125 per person ($250 married) @ 4 times per year

    6. Top 50 pack – $265 – supposedly a one-time cost, but they seem to have an odd way of continually updating the pack and even putting in older CD’s that you may not already have. Since these CD’s aren’t usually sold separately on the EBC, you might need to buy new packs from time to time. Also, ask your upline for some old Top 50 packs that they have so you can listen to them. Might want to ask about where some of those old leaders went? Actually, you probably don’t have to look much further than this site…many of them are right here

    By my calculations, the BARE minimum (which you’ll find will be WAAAY conservative) if that you’ll be paying at least $263 per month on just system events, if you exclude the cost of any unreimbursed tickets, the monthly cost of the $265 Top 50 pack, any Super Opens, any webcasts and any “extras”, such as branded emails on the E.B.C. This also excludes ANY additional system tools, which it would be impossible to build the TEAM business without (at least in order to get any “free” mentoring). These will include the TEAM Builders Textbook ($24), Top 5 books ($62), LLR book ($16), Team Calendar ($25), Board & Easel Set ($83) and Open Meeting Flip Chart, which they’ll be continually changing ($249). And I haven’t even BEGUN to start discussing the costs of the real ON-GOING tools that you’ll need to constantly replace as you build “your” business: 1st night packs ($27 each), story CD’s, Additional Information Packs, Getting Started Packs, Apprenticeship Packs, Power Player Packs, Depth Packs, etc. etc. etc.

    And even more importantly for most folks (yourself apparently excluded), is the fact that in order to go Power Player, you need to be on auto-ship and do 200 PV per month (or 2 cases of juice). The cheapest 2 cases (Essential / Original) you can get will cost you $215. I can’t tell you how many people on my team came up to me and said there was no way they could afford this kind of money on juice, when our real business was selling tools and getting people to seminars. And, this may be before your time, but until recently Power Player (and getting into majors early) was 300 PV…meaning you’d have to purchase not two, but THREE cases of the product each month!

    I haven’t even begun to get into the costs of gas for thousands of miles each month, hotel costs, food costs at majors or during travels, etc.

    So you may want to rethink your statement about the finance pack (more $) solving all of people’s problems not being able to afford all of this. Last time I checked, there are other budgeting and financial tools online where you can get the same information for FREE.

    In my experience building the business hard for YEARS, I would have loved if my monthly costs were ONLY $500 per month.

  182. Speak Your Truth permalink
    September 5, 2011 5:35 pm


    Welcome to the site! Glad you found it too; funny you say your suspicions were confirmed here. Just goes to show you already picked up on the scam, and none of us contacted or texted you!

    I am sorry; you were ‘prospected’ for the ‘business opportunity’ from your cousin this way, but that is the way they teach it. Be short and sweet; book the plan, sell the ticket whatever, and always be in a hurry!

    So they are using text to contact now? LOL How’s that working for them?…. Gutless, they can’t even make calls on the phone to get personal; phone must be ‘too heavy.’ They know new people are afraid to make calls, so they must think this ‘technology’ is the answer. Must have backed out on the principle they used to use.

    Thanks for sharing and the laughs! 🙂

  183. LRoberts permalink
    September 5, 2011 7:29 pm

    To be honest, I’m glad that she texted instead of contacting me over the phone because I didn’t feel so bad for saying “no.” That actually made it easier for me to not commit to this. Anyway, thanks again for the great info. I’ll keep my eyes open to this kind of crap and just be aware.

  184. not signed up yet permalink
    September 5, 2011 9:09 pm

    L Roberts,

    Its amazing I never heard of Chris Brady, Tim Marks, Dan Hawkins, Orrin Woodward or Dallin Larsen (Entreprenuer of the Year in 2009!)or all the other self proclaimed “Leadership” gurus until I met TEAM people. I have on the other hand heard of John Maxwell, Zig Ziglar, Brain Tracy and Dale Carnegie.

    Wonder why that is? I was also in the military for several years so I know about leadership, integrity and character. I am telling ya, TEAM doesn’t have it.

  185. Sandi permalink
    September 7, 2011 8:40 pm

    These figures no longer apply, as the Team has changed drastically!! You need to get more accurate information!

  186. September 7, 2011 8:52 pm

    Sandi – Care to share more details?

  187. Speak Your Truth permalink
    September 7, 2011 8:56 pm


    What is different the registration fee?

  188. mike permalink
    September 10, 2011 9:49 pm

    I guess time will tell with the unveiling of LIFE on November 1, 2011. While only a small % of current team and monavie Distributors actually pull in some income at this time. And I did say income and not profit . (around 5%) The initial reports out of the new compensation plan(not completed yet) says that 95% of distributors will start seeing income right away. That is unheard of in this industry. Ive been with team for a little over a year now and while it hasnt been the best monitarily (totally my fault because I havent completely followed instructions and showed 15 plans a month) it has been a positive experience and has helped in other aspects in my life for now. Im going to stay with it as I see nothing but positive on the horizon. Lets give this a time to grow and I think based on whats coming we can silence the critics and the only way to do that is through success. I do pray that every one of you can find success in whatever you do be it TEAM or any other busineess venture



  189. Bruce permalink
    September 11, 2011 8:43 am

    I had a feeling this was a pyramid scheme. Here is what happened to me. I can easily put two and two together. A customer was at my place of business who brought his car in for some minor repairs. I do not usually deal with customers directly as I work out in the shop area but sometimes will let the customer inside to see what I am doing. We started talking about a large company in my area that I am interested in (not LIFE) and then after a while comes the inevitable question to me, “Have you ever thought about doing something else.” Well, I said “yes” and then comes the spiel about this book I should read. It turned out he barely had enough money himself to pay for the repairs done to his car. The CD’s were laying on the passenger seat so I thought I would listen to one while he was out of view in the car wash. He tried to call me yesterday but I didn’t answer and felt somewhat guilty for not answering. I came here to confirm my gut feeling and I was right. These schemes need to be outlawed especially in this economy when people are very vulnerable.

  190. Speak Your Truth permalink
    September 11, 2011 12:10 pm


    You are yet another person who has not been ‘gamed to come here, lol’ and have seen through the bait and switch and am glad your critical thinking is in tact. One thing that disturbs me, and it is part of the game, is we all by nature ‘feel guilty’ but you have every right to just answer and tell them the truth. In fact, I wish you would, they need to hear it over and over from people, that they ‘spring’ their ‘contacting tricks’ on.

    Thanks a bunch for sharing! 🙂

  191. Speak Your Truth permalink
    September 11, 2011 12:27 pm

    Mike it does remain to be seen and quite frankly doesn’t prove anything other than they have gotten away taking from the masses for decades before to achieve their lifestyles, but then no one is ignorant at this point. It isn’t impressive either. You are failing you see the reason for the critics in the first place, the ill gotten gains have been taken from those millions for decades who never made a penny profit only ended up with loses of many sorts. This does not make the industry impressive.

    You also state: “Lets give this a time to grow and I think based on whats coming we can silence the critics and the only way to do that is through success.”

    Silence the critics? That is an interesting statement although that has been touted for probably 4 decades beginning in Amway. I find it interesting that your only concern is to ‘silence the critics’ very typical for the industry I might add and NOT address all the unethical, immoral, and illegal behavior that has been perpetrated upon millions.

    But hey if your only interested in silencing people so you can ‘make money’, which is the way it has always been, then the industry will continue to create victims/ critics. It doe not absolve all the damage, destruction to the relationships, finances, faith etc…

    The MLM world does breed and attract a certain type of character and it is my opinion it breeds, GREED.

  192. Speak Your Truth permalink
    September 11, 2011 1:03 pm


    BTW~ Rather than ‘blame the critic and try and silence them’ if you were honest with yourself, then I would think you would be giving them credit for the changes. After all isn’t it the critics and numerous lawsuits that the industry has brought on themselves and cannot hide (for the most part the truth) from the general eyes of the public. Is it not the industry it self that has caused the damages?

    I believe it is the critics who are forcing the ‘change’ because ‘silencing’ them is insanity and only creates more of them. I would say if it weren’t for the critics NOTHING would change. The MLM greedy thieves I have had experience with would have loved for everyone to shut up and let them continue with the deception and smoke and mirrors and continue to rank it multi-millions off the masses. They would have all been happy to just silence the critics and continue to rake in billions of dollars for them and the companies they attach themselves to, don’t you think?

    I mean what would be the point and hassle for them or why would they change a ‘good thing’ if they could keep the law off their back by No ONE policing what they do, and be left to run the industry without any rules or laws to follow, the way they always have behind the scenes? Seems like a no brainer to me.

    The change either comes from within; or without.

  193. Vogel permalink
    September 11, 2011 6:44 pm

    “One thing that disturbs me, and it is part of the game, is we all by nature ‘feel guilty’ but you have every right to just answer and tell them the truth. In fact, I wish you would, they need to hear it over and over from people, that they ‘spring’ their ‘contacting tricks’ on.”


    Glad I never feel that guilt. If someone appraoches me with the latest get-rich quick MLM wonder tonic, I shoo them away with a broom…SWAT!

    Seriously though, it’s our moral duty to impose an annoyance tax on those who relentlessly push these scams.

  194. Speak Your Truth permalink
    September 11, 2011 7:36 pm

    Thanks Vogel. 🙂

  195. Speak Your Truth permalink
    September 12, 2011 7:58 am


    You obviously don’t believe in ‘Freedom of Speech’, but then we already new that.

    Perhaps leave America and find a more appropriate communist place to live that matches with your belief system. You are an exact replica of every (mis) Leaders in the MLM industry that I have been exposed to for years. They all have a warped and corrupt belief system and their made up reality that ONLY allows them to do and say what they wish, make up their own rules (mafia style) and of course they have their own laws. Because they don’t follow the real ones. They ‘claim’ they belief in Freedom, but as your post reflects….just another hypocrisy.

    The ‘industry’ (dictator+tyrants) spend A LOT of time and energy on trying to ‘silence the criticts’ (TRUTH), bash and ‘try with might’ to ruin people’s crediblity….thanks for showing us who you really are.

    Need proof? Ask or read Qrush=Orrin…your hero, who believes just like you.

  196. ryan carter permalink
    September 14, 2011 7:01 pm

    Lol at all of u people…you definitely are making a stir alright. Hmm i dont really care about any of the money that ive invested and havent made anything yet. The information that they have sent across is priceless to me. Relationships in my life have gotten better and i cant complain about that at all. So why hate on something that could help you?

  197. Speak Your Truth permalink
    September 14, 2011 9:56 pm

    Ryan Carter~

    Please take your blinders off and read the site. It is amazing that you can’t SEE what is written here. Is it that you don’t read the posts on the site, or did someone just tell you to come here to say something or for what reason? I am curious, could you explain?

    What kind of stir is it that you are speaking of?

  198. Jason permalink
    September 15, 2011 7:54 pm

    Hey All.I just want to thank every single one of you who have posted on this blog so far. I just spent the past hour or so reading this entire post/thread and have been both amused and disturbed at the same time. I have been approached by a TEAM member who is a customer of mine( I’m in cellular phone sales) about this new LIFE program and at the moment even have the LIFE book and some of Orrin’s CDs laying on the floor right in front of me. Just finished reading the LIFE book and decided to research Orrin Woodward and LIFE after completing it(I have not listened to the “brainwashing” CD’s thankfully) and I am so glad that I took the additional time to read this ENTIRE site before posting this comment.

    Without taking up too much space let me share my experience with you all. After being approached by a customer of mine about a “business opportunity” regarding being a life coach I have had numerous text conversations and 1 meeting with this customer and his mentor(guess they want me bad) and have been given these materials free of charge to try and recruit me.

    The thing is, I tried to return them before even reading/listening to them and was convinced to keep them a while longer and was also given a free ticket to a seminar that Orrin was speaking at, (which I did not attend) but to think that I have been pitched not once, but twice so far on joining the LIFE “community” makes me think, I really don’t know if these guys will give up! I already know MLM’s are a scam and that nobody but the top dogs make any money and I am no one’s sucker but my question to you all is this: How do I return these materials and politely yet definitively decline the gentlemen who are trying to recruit me?

  199. September 15, 2011 9:36 pm

    @Jason – I would take the high road and simply say, “Thank you for the materials. However, after reviewing them and the opportunity, I have determined that I cannot devote the time, money and resources necessary to be successful in this LIFE business.”

  200. humiliated permalink
    September 16, 2011 5:48 am

    Jason, that is a tough spot because this “gentleman” is a customer of yours. I agree with Amthrax, be polite but firm. They are getting desperate now and their tactics appear to be getting more aggresive (with what I read of other potential “recruits). No means no.

    It is interesting that they are now really pursuing the “be a life coach” aspect the implication being that you are a natural born leader and will get paid to counsel people, to mold & shape lives. that is some huge love bombing. This would be hugely flattering for the recipient but, unfortunately, you will have to drop $40,000-$50,000 (ex-TEAMsters step in with the actual figures if you like) in the process, never mind pissing off or losing your friends and family. You pegged it right, it is a MLM and it is a scam.

    I have a question, maybe I have missed this completely with the whole L.I.E.F. b.s. but are they saying that they are going to churn out “life coaches” now? Ie, they are no longer just selling “hope” but some sort of education in this regard? Is this their new “commodity” to replace the fruit punch? It seems that more than one person has posted stating this is how they were approached.

    Jason, if NO doesn’t work, you could tell them that you have just signed up with Visalus and you couldn’t possibly be involved with more than ONE MLM scam at a time!

  201. Jason permalink
    September 16, 2011 8:14 am

    @Amthrax, thank you I’ll give that a try and hopefully he’ll move on.

    @humiliated, Yes they are approaching it now as a training to be “life coach” and helping people become leaders, improve in the 8 F’s, blah blah blah! At the meeting with the Mentor type,( who I assumed was this fellow’s upline leader) I asked flat put “is this an MLM?” and he replied YES, but… and went into rhetoric about building a business, its a COMMUNITY that helps people, stories about the economy, the government, etc. When I pointed out that MLM’s like Mona Vie are basically a scam and that 99% of people don’t make money(I already knew this before ever reading anything here) they just matter or factly stated that it was optional to sell the juice and that they had “distanced themselves” from the whole MV operation because of the negativity surrounding it. That was one of many red flags in our meeting that told me this was NOT RIGHT. I’m glad I found this site and got straight talk from former members form TEAM who WERE MAKING MONEY but lost a fortune or in some cases a little bit of themselves, in the process. I’ll stick to what I do best, which is selling and providing great customer service. I don’t want to be in the E quadrant forever, but this LIFE opportunity certainly won’t get me into the other 3 any faster either. At least not successfully anyways. THANKS AGAIN

  202. I need TEAM like I need a hole in the head permalink
    September 16, 2011 11:22 am

    Ok so I’ve been out the game a while, know what i’m sayin’ and heard LIFE was coming out and stumbled across this site. When I was in the game Odiddly (Orrin), Brady, Tim Marks, Patriots Leader Matt something, Bill Lewis, Kirk Birtles, Randy Howgen (sp?), Billy Florence, Jim (LTIT) leader were some of the big doggs. All these dudes still in it? Pastor Dickie, I was reading is gone? Whats going on in TEAMland? Fill a brotha in ya’ll…..

  203. September 16, 2011 6:00 pm

    @I Need TEAM – Read the Ex-TEAM discussion at the top of this site. It’s a lengthy discussion (1000+ comments). From there, go to the TEAM category page and the Orrin Woodward tag page for more information.

  204. humiliated permalink
    September 17, 2011 7:30 am

    Well…..if everyone is going to be a leader within an “internal consumption” model who they hell will be the followers? Are they just going to attend these meetings and tell each other what to do? It would be hilarious to watch that!!

    Seriously, they get the occasional new recruit but no one out in the real world will be listening to their bullshit or letting them “lead” them through anything.

  205. October 6, 2011 2:35 pm

    haha wow. have fun working your lives away, oh and watch out for the upcoming economic twists n turns in the road. TEAM!!!!!!!

  206. Speak Your Truth permalink
    October 6, 2011 3:41 pm

    no~ haha the joke isn’t on us… Tell us your odds…What are your odds of you EVER making any money or working your life away..doing what you are doing? Do you even know them? You are way better off to get a job, or finding something you love to do that you will actually be able to support yourself. 🙂

  207. LRoberts permalink
    October 28, 2011 8:21 pm

    For as much as I have read previously regarding this, i can’t help but read more…its quite entertaining. Just like watching a good episode of the Real Housewives of Beverly Hills (my fave TV show on bravo). Thanks for such interesting debates and points of view. Its fun to read this blog.

  208. none of permalink
    October 30, 2011 1:55 pm

    You were scammed when you came to this page only to be misinformed Team has all of the other mlms worried because what team is doing is cleaning up the mess the other Mlms have created. If your going to put info out there make sure it is up to date and accurrate integrity the author HAS NONE!

  209. brent hansen permalink
    October 30, 2011 4:39 pm

    none of, looking forward to a full explanation from you of how team is “cleaning up the mess.” Now Life is doing janitorial work for the industry, amazing! True leaders are not afraid to scrub toilets I guess. Why not plant some solid facts, numbers and information here instead of spouting off the rhetoric that you learned at BDS. What is your up-to-date info? Looking forward to your response.

  210. October 30, 2011 4:45 pm

    Dear “none of”,

    I was not sucked into the MLM business thanks to this site. However, I am wondering why people like you are so blinded by the so called “opportunities” these companies offer!

    Enlighten us with some more information about TEAM if you are so convinced. Obviously you know how TEAM is working nowadays, and according to you the author does not see things correctly; you are even attacking his integrity. Please, please explain!

  211. Speak Your Truth permalink
    October 30, 2011 6:16 pm

    This is just comical…Thanks for the laughs!!! Oh btw..’none of’…the author of this blog has more integrity in his little pinky that you and the rest of the PC Lie..Fer’s have in their entire bodies. He is not flogging the scam on others and you apparently are.

    I too wait for your ‘up to date’ info. Did you read the LieF P&P and understand fully the consequesces of your being on this blog?..hahaaha

  212. boudje permalink
    November 1, 2011 11:18 am

    If this guy was spending $500 +/month he is fucking moron. TEAM in no way requires you to buy their products to become a member. The total cost for joining is a one time $175 fee (approximate amount). What you spend after that is completely up to you. I have been a member for 8 months now and I am making above $800/month. And that was achieved by working an average of 12 hours per week. A big week is 20 hours. If you complain that you did not succeed in this business, it is your own fault and yours only. You will only succeed if you are willing to work hard at this. You people on this website talk about it as if they have this evil mastermind plan to scam everybody out of their money. The truth is that this type of business works wether or not you want to accept it. You just have to have patience and be willing to work at it. If this is a scam why am I, and everybody else in my team making some money right now. Sure it doesn’t replace my current job right now. But in 4-6 months it will. Once that happens I will be able to spend all the time I want with friends and familly. Just because this isn’t for you, doesn’t mean its a scam.

  213. November 1, 2011 12:26 pm

    @Boudje – Are you making money from the sale of TEAM tools or from your MonaVie business? What is the income opportunity that you share with your prospects? TEAM (that’s not allowed)? MonaVie? LIFE (can’t be since it just started today)?

  214. das permalink
    November 1, 2011 1:59 pm

    @Boudje – Do you show proof that you are making $800 per month after expenses to your new prospects? You must be a good student to become job optional after only a year in Team. That…or you’ve been hitting the crack pipe a bit too much. Probably the latter, hence the foul language.

    Do you realize you just broke two of the rules, well, maybe three of the Policies and Procedures? They can now stop paying you anything! Yeah, just like that! It’s a good thing one of the rules you broke was not identifying yourself.

    Next time try logging in honestly, liar liar will work, because it is mathematically impossible for everyone in your team to make money. Nuf said!

  215. das permalink
    November 1, 2011 2:09 pm

    Oh, and one more thing, IT IS A SCAM! You need to spend a little time reading before you jump in and show your ignorance about posters here not being able to make this business work. We did the work, and a heck of a lot more than an average of 12 hours per week. That’s about how much I slept when I was trying to scam my friends…I mean showing the plan. oopsie!

  216. das permalink
    November 1, 2011 2:10 pm

    Webelieved, ditto bro!!!

  217. brent hansen permalink
    November 1, 2011 4:46 pm


    I am assuming that your $800 per month is coming from MV is that correct? Please explain exactly where your ‘over $800 a month’ is coming from. If it is from Monavie, that would indicate that you are generating somewhere around 8000 BV on your weaker team during the month, right?

    If you are earning $800 a month from Team, please indicate how, cause I have an offer for you if you care to prove what you are saying.

  218. Speak Your Truth permalink
    November 1, 2011 4:54 pm

    Yep…I agree…sleep? 12 hours per week…another one in self denial. You chew up 12 hours @ a monthly seminar alone!!!!!!!!! I highly doubt Boudje is making 800 bucks associated with either…when people are dropping like flies off autoship and the LieF program? hahaha…This should be interesting!

  219. Speak Your Truth permalink
    November 1, 2011 4:58 pm

    Well, I guess boudje could deduct any cd listening time…I think his post confirms that..hahaha. Makes you wonder how he even gets one started! I agree with das & webelieved…he obviously hasn’t read the P&P.. nor this site! Where is the love?…lol

  220. showmedata permalink
    November 8, 2011 4:24 pm

    Wow…Anthrax and followers. This blog will go down as one of the most depressing sites the internet has offered in history. So, you mean to tell me that integrity is now measured by posting some comments about the leaders in TEAM, behind the scenes. So you say that Orrin and leaders in the TEAM are scammers. Interestingly enough, Orrin and Chris have written several books in leadership that people who have large businesses and churches use. In fact, these same books are available in sites like amazon and large bookstores. Since when scammers get endorsed by multiple extremely successful leaders and once published they sell thousands. Where is the fruit from your tree? Or is some made up stories and data all you can show us? In God I trust, all others, show me data. Here’s an idea, if you say this does not work, then what does? People with integrity don’t hide behind the curtains and throw rocks at others. Shame on the Jackals who are following this. I’ve seen nothing wrong with the LIfe materials being offered, much more helpful than my school’s textbooks. I’ll wait for the data. I’m sure you have plenty if you claim to be of character.

  221. brent hansen permalink
    November 8, 2011 8:13 pm

    showmedata, Why not try opening your back office and analyzing the real data, that should show you everything you need to know. Better yet, if your up to it, there is a challenge out there associated directly with that, could put some cash in your pocket. Are you interested? By the way, I am hiding behind no curtain, willing to talk anytime.

  222. Speak Your Truth permalink
    November 8, 2011 9:49 pm


    Wonder if anyone will take you up on that challenge..ha! I smell a recent kool-aide festival.

  223. Speak Your Truth permalink
    November 8, 2011 10:10 pm


    Your data is in the LieF P&P, you ought to read it…because you are violating it. There is a lot of ‘data’ in the history…perhaps you ought to study that also.

    You say; “People with integrity don’t hide behind the curtains and throw rocks at others.”

    YOU DIDN’T JUST SAY THAT DID YOU? And what is your NAME , again? Typical hypocrite.

  224. showmedata permalink
    November 9, 2011 3:00 pm

    Brent Hansen, nice to see someone step up. Question: how does one contact you? You are not providing contact info.

    Even with all the negative comments you all have about TEAM or LIFE, you can’t deny that the CDs in the Life starter kit are great. I only wish Universities were teaching these principals. Even during a discussion I had with a professor from a local university agreed. You all should listen to the 3 audios. Great info, is great info.
    Speak the Truth and we believed, you seem a bit upset and unhappy, there’s a pack in he llr series that can really help you, along with some books in the life and ago series. These will help you in whatever it is that you want to do in life.
    Other authors like Oliver DeMille’s book the freedom shift has commentary on the back from Orrin and he has done some CDs in llr series are associating with Orrin and TEAM. Oliver has plenty of fruit on his tree and I am sure he wouldn’t just associate with anyone that does not display character and integrity.
    So before you go on with more negative comments, please reference any books that any of you have published or any other fruit in your tree. Why should anyone pay attention to your comments in this blog? Again, show me the data.

  225. Vogel permalink
    November 9, 2011 3:13 pm

    SMD said: “Even with all the negative comments you all have about TEAM or LIFE, you can’t deny that the CDs in the Life starter kit are great.”

    I will easily deny it, as soon as I finish laughing. A more worthless sack of crap would be hard to envision.

    SMD said: “I only wish Universities were teaching these principals. Even during a discussion I had with a professor from a local university agreed. You all should listen to the 3 audios. Great info, is great info.”

    Had you ever visited an actual university, you would know that they share knowledge with their students that far exceeds even the finest drivel you’ll hear from the TEAM/LIEf organization. My suggestion — read a book sometime that doesn’t have “ME” or “MONEY” in the title — there’s a whole world of knowledge waiting for you beyond the MLM self help/motivation aisle.

    And who might this idiot professor be? I call BS. Want to give us a name and institution, or do you want save yourself the trouble of backpedaling by admitting now that your’re full of it.

    SMD said: “Speak the Truth and we believed, you seem a bit upset and unhappy, there’s a pack in he llr series that can really help you, along with some books in the life and ago series.”

    Step a little closer, I’m having trouble hearing you…closer…closer…perfect…SMACK!

  226. brent hansen permalink
    November 9, 2011 4:23 pm

    showmedata, please email me at, and leave your phone number if you like, I will give you a call, would love to talk. Thanks.

  227. Speak Your Truth permalink
    November 9, 2011 7:09 pm


    LHOL!!!…I agree with Vogel… What University.. (don’t you know college is bad, according to those teaching & cd’s, you are washing your brain in) especially let us know who that Professor you are dealing with is, because I will be SURE not to let anyone in my family or friends ever attend there.

    We seem a bit upset and unhappy?…hahaha and you SMD…don’t have a clue and seem a bit brainwashed. Thanks but No thanks, on the ‘cd’s’… I have heard enough BS on CD’s to last 3 lifetimes and all the stock went to the DUMP where it belongs…. all $60,000 dollars worth… I am sorry should have sold them to you at that bargin price of what 6 or 7 bucks a piece.. also I couldn’t be happier! What curtain were you hiding behind throwing your rocks, again?

    Not sure how you draw your conclusions…oh wait that’s right…it’s those CD’s.. And the ‘fruit on the tree’…let’s see, I am pretty sure I know how your judging the fruit but there is a conflict with how you and I judge that fruit… but let me ask you that same question perhaps in a more deliberate way..Which part of the 99% are you; that are LOSING your fruit? Don’t bother answering it is quite obvious, and I am sure Brent will give you plenty of rock solid ‘data’ to confirm it.

    BTW~ Stay in college, I hope you are going to be a math major, if not prepare for your lesson…it sounds like it is your best shot…unless you decide to play the lottery of course…good luck! Otherwise…you are the one who will end up a lot more than just unhappy.

    One last lesson…just because someone writes a book…doesn’t mean they aren’t scammers. Take that one to your Professor. And shame on those who follow you.

  228. MWRascal permalink
    November 9, 2011 8:55 pm

    This is really entertaining.

    showmedata, my advice to you. Unless you want these people results (all they do is complain about how bad good information is), stay focused on learning and applying the principles being taught in LIFE. Remember you are who you associate with. I visit this page every now and then for 2 things: 1) To get a good laugh and 2) To grab ideas and content for a future book I am writing on the backwards thinking that we’ve been brainwashed for years.

    It does not take a very bright person to see that our higher education isn’t paying off for a lot of people, if you don’t believe me just read the news on how many students who are graduating with Bachelors and Masters aren’t getting jobs. People have a choice, to either listen to people who have no results telling you to do the same thing they are doing so that you too don’t get ahead… I don’t have to convince anyone, successful entrepreneurs are already doing that, see for why extremely successful people like Peter Thiel are offering grants for our young generation to think differently.

    People in this blog complain that they lost thousands in tools that if they wanted to, they could apply and get better overall results, no different than buying a top model Treadmill and never getting on it – then they blame the store because they have not lost weight. That’s just human nature, and the American way we want the quick results and with no efforts.

    You have an important choice to make, it’s your future. You can stay focused on what you are doing, become a great student and improve in the 8F’s.
    For as much as they bash Orrin and Chris and the rest of TEAM not one person here has ever shown fruit on their tree. While they continue on the “poor me”, “listen to what they did to me” thinking, TEAM continues to create more and more leaders. I am seeing friends’ families being transformed while improving in the 8F’s.

    If people here want to complain about a scam, look at our government. People are being left out on the streets (and not by TEAM), they were following the very principles that people in this blog are telling everyone to follow. Go to school, get a good secure job (where exactly is that – in China?), and everything will be fine… really ? Go tell that to the people who are holding Master degrees and are unemployed. Unless they have a better vehicle which can create the amount of freedom and income as TEAM teaches by just applying the right principles, I would run from these people.

    Vogel and speak the Truth… you both need to get a hold of the books coming through the AGO series. “How to Forgive…..When you don’t feel like it” by June Hunt. Unless you also believe that growing spiritually while you help a ministry which helps children is a scam. Get a subscription, it will help you both.

    Always a Rascal…

  229. I QUIT (and glad I did) permalink
    November 10, 2011 5:00 am

    Lets not forget the fact that these Teamers, who are so “right”, who’s thinking is so far “above” the rest of the world, are violating several of the regs clearly laid out in the P & P. Ironic isn’t it. I love catching a sermon from hypocrite. Here, let me hold your soapbox…

  230. Vogel permalink
    November 10, 2011 8:36 am

    MWRascal said: “It does not take a very bright person to see that our higher education isn’t paying off for a lot of people, if you don’t believe me just read the news on how many students who are graduating with Bachelors and Masters aren’t getting jobs.”

    You’re obviously well qualified in that regard but for our purposes here, I’m not particularly interested in the views of not-very-bright people. As always, I’m interested in facts; and the facts are that unemployment is twice as prevalent among less educated people than those who have a college degree.

    The trends are the same when considering income levels. College grads outpace their non-college educated counterparts by millions of dollars over a lifetime.

    Of course, there are also other obvious benefits of a college education that can’t be tallied in dollars and cents alone.

    Denigrating college, which is the modus operandi of scammy MLMs like TEAM, is idiotic, self-serving, and destructive to society. Most parents in the U.S. dream of sending their kids to college. What’s your dream for America’s kids? To have them grow up and become broke pyramid schemers who lie and harass people to buy and sell $45 toxic fruit juice? That’s not a dream – it’s a chilling nightmare.

  231. switch permalink
    November 10, 2011 8:54 am

    Awww……SPANKY here, doesn’t like the truth being leaked out. That’s too bad….”poor SPANKY.”

  232. November 10, 2011 9:07 am

    Vogel, I agree with your excellent comparison.

    It’s seems to me that MWRascal has no clue about these facts, and he is just repeating the MLM mantra that a college or university degree is worthless, or that MLM is at least as valuable as a degree.

    Well, not having a degree makes you certainly dependent of others, and this quality is of course well appreciated by MLM gurus.

  233. Vogel permalink
    November 10, 2011 9:36 am

    The “college-is-bad” ruse is hard to take isn’t it? The kingpins, with their usual duplicity, will talk about how MLM is taught at Harvard Business School — which in reality is a laughably transparent lie — or, as in the case of Showmedata (one of the recent posters here), that university professors think that TEAM promo materials should be used to teach college students (har har).

    Looking at the hypocrisy a little more closely, who does Monavie trot out on stage to convince people that the product has value — people with university degrees (or in the case of Alex Schauss, people who buy fake degrees from mail order operations). They’ll bandy those university credentials when it serves their agenda of pushing product and signing up distributors, but out of the other side of their mouths, they’ll try to convince new distributors not only that they don’t need college but that college is a waste of money.

    And do you doubt for a second that the kingpins are sending, or hoping to send, their own kids to college? The distributors are being bilked and the money that’s being bilked from them is going towards paying the college tuition of the kingpin’s kids. So in essence, what they’re saying is that YOU should sacrifice college and give up the money so that THEIR kids can go instead.

    This two-faced anti-college ruse is one more reason to loathe this industry and the scummy con artists that run it.

  234. MWRascal permalink
    November 10, 2011 1:09 pm

    Wow… Vogel way to go…it’s no wonder that this country is in the mess we are in. I agree that education isn’t a bad thing, it’s a great thing. Just that there’s a good education (real life) and there’s what our school system is teaching. Everyone needs to wake up from the fantasy that if you go to school and get a degree that you are guaranteed a job.. nobody is.
    I personally know many people who hold masters degrees in science, business and engineering that were laid off as those jobs were off-shored to either China or India. Here’s the worst part, most of them haven’t even finished paying their school loans… which one is the scam ? or do you call that a legal scam – just because that’s what people have been brainwashed to do, get a loan and go to school, it will pay off. WRONG!!

    I have to believe you are smarter than that… read for yourself.. “Mr Thiel believes that higher education fills all the criteria for a bubble: tuition costs are too high, debt loads are too onerous, and there is mounting evidence that the rewards are over-rated. Add to this the fact that politicians are doing everything they can to expand the supply of higher education (reasoning that the “jobs of the future” require college degrees), much as they did everything that they could to expand the supply of “affordable” housing, and it is hard to see how we can escape disaster”

    Let me type it again in case you miss it in the article or in the last paragraph “Mr Thiel believes that higher education fills all the criteria for a bubble: tuition costs are too high, debt loads are too onerous, and there is mounting evidence that the rewards are over-rated” – “over-rated” – that means a thing of the past, if you think that security is having a degree, that’s a fantasy. Einstein said it well “doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results is insane”. and that’s what you are recommending.

    Are you also going to tell me that Mr Thiel is a scammer, that he is stealing from people because he made it. Also, for our information, 6 out of the 8 most successful people I know are entrepreneurs and did not get higher education. What they each have done would have never been achieved with a Doctorate degree – they have wealth (time and freedom) and understand opportunities.

    I’ll tell you what… time will tell. I’ll come back to this blog in about a year I am pretty sure that I am going to find the same people complaining, over and over the same thing. While those who have decided to become entrepreneurs get just further and further ahead.

    It’s no wonder that Doctors, Pharmacists, Professors, Engineers are looking for other ways to earn an income…because at the end of it all, the system that got them into the “job” market just DOES NOT offer a way out….. oh wait, it does – after 45 years and with half the $$ you made, welcome to the scam you always wanted….

    Get a hold of some good books and audios, there might still be hope for you.

    See you in a year, and thanks for all the inspiration for my future book….

  235. November 10, 2011 1:41 pm

    mwrascal – You are right about college education in the sense that no one is guaranteed a good job. You are also right that tuition in expensive and students can graduate with massive amounts of debt. However, what people are arguing on this site is that Americans will simply be better off with a college degree vs. pissing that money away in a pipe dream where the percentage of people that actually make it to the top is .05 percent. At least with a college degree any graduate has a shot at landing a JOB that can pull them in a paycheck to support their family and get their future started. LIFE can’t do that. LIFE will simply rape them financially month in and month out.

  236. KathyT permalink
    November 10, 2011 3:11 pm

    I agree with mwrascal. There’s a lot of people wasting time and $$ in schools. If life offers a vehicle and a way out of the rut. I am all in. You guys call it a scam. I call it “different” and there’s nothing wrong with different. I am not part of team but only a life customer and the info so far has been more than great, life changing. Leaders is what we need in this country. We don’t need more people bashing other people and in the end no one gets ahead by being a critic. I made a mistake, I should have signed up as a life member instead of a customer. I went to 2 years of college and I feel as I’ve already learned more valuable information with just the first 3 audios and the book. You all should get it!

    Spread the love, don’t you all be so negative about everything.

  237. KathyT permalink
    November 10, 2011 3:17 pm

    Speak The Truth and Vogel… You both sound like rather upset people. Where are your manners? Is this what you guys learn in this blog?

    You guys should get a life kit. It will really hep you.

  238. das permalink
    November 10, 2011 3:29 pm

    Chris/Rascal, you can rationalize and justify what you do but in the end you are still just a common thief stealing from the people who believe and trust in you and your scam.

    And about your future book, I imagine it will be another best seller after you shove it down everyone’s throat by making it the “book of the month”, making it part of the sign-up kit, and of course every “trunk” should have a couple dozen. Sound familiar Best Selling Author?

  239. humiliated permalink
    November 10, 2011 4:25 pm

    I must say, people like MWRascal trouble me the most. We have shown time and time again that there are REAL people that have suffered TREMENDOUS emotional and financial devastation being involved with TEAM and MONAVIE. People have lost their homes, their families, their bank accounts and you just call them lazy and complainers. These are people that at one time believed the shit you are spewing and were convinced to invest more years, more money and more of their souls. They have lost everything and you make light of it. Is THIS what they teach you to do in TEAM? To be sanctimonious, condescending, self righteous and, above all, heartless?

    It is fine to think “out of the box ” but TEAM/ LIFE puts you in such a small box, you will be poking air holes to breathe. They will tell you and your family how to think, how to spend your money (on tools & conventions which will be divided up any way they see fit) , what religion you should be (faux-Christian) , how you should dress and who you should (and shouldn’t) talk to. SOUNDS FRIGGIN’ AWESOME!

    Your analogy regarding the treadmill is ridiculous unless you look at it another way. The people on this site wanted to lose weight (have a business) so they bought the treadmill from Orrin and, while they were out, his people came in and stole it…they were convinced to buy another…so they bought another one…and another one. Until finally they could not afford to buy any more treadmills.

    A book that YOU should read is “Combatting Mind Control” by Steven Hassan, that is, unless you are Orrin or one of his henchmen, in which case you already know all of this because you are masters of mind control and have no interest in combatting it. KathyT, you should read this book too because THOSE are the principles that LIFE is based on.

    Hell yeah I am negative. I am negative about TEAM/CULTS, drugs, spousal & child abuse, home invasions and the like.

  240. Vogel permalink
    November 10, 2011 5:55 pm

    That was powerful Humiliated; very well said.

  241. Vogel permalink
    November 10, 2011 7:03 pm

    MWR: “Wow… Vogel way to go…it’s no wonder that this country is in the mess we are in.”

    Yes, of course; I see it now! The “mess we are in” is all the fault of people like me who go around extolling the virtues of a college education. Pfft! Idiot.

    MWR: “I personally know many people who hold masters degrees in science, business and engineering that were laid off as those jobs were off-shored to either China or India.”

    I’ll bet you a thousand dollars right now that you don’t. And even if it were true, so what? You don’t think that the unskilled non-degreed laborers weren’t the first to get the axe and the last to get re-employed?

    MWR: “Here’s the worst part, most of them haven’t even finished paying their school loans… which one is the scam?”

    Universities don’t promise jobs. They promise an education and that’s what they deliver. Are you really stupid enough to pose the question as to whether university of TEAM/LIEf/Monavie is the scam? Seriously??? Your ignorance is astounding to the point of being offensive.

    MWR: “…or do you call that a legal scam – just because that’s what people have been brainwashed to do, get a loan and go to school, it will pay off. WRONG!!”

    Are you suggesting that none of the kingpins in TEAM/Monavie are sending their kids to college? Wake up lunatic! No one is saying that a degree guarantees a job; it just greatly increases ones chances of getting one — just like not getting a degree doesn’t guarantee that you won’t be employable; it just greatly increases the chances that you won’t be and that you’ll be financially handicapped for the rest of your life. The competitive landscape is only getting more demanding; those without higher education and technical skills will be left behind in the new economy – that’s a simple fact.

    Let’s compare. Spend 4 years in college studying fascinating stuff and mingling with cool interesting intelligent people from all walks of life on a beautiful campus and walking away with a BSc, a wealth of great experiences, connections, and a head full of knowledge, as well as a decent shot for the future.

    Or spend 4 years working 40 hour weeks, while broke, spending all your time at cult meetings and Super 8 conference rooms being indoctrinated by people who try to suck money out of your pockets; feeding your mind with nothing but Kiyosaki’s, Pilzer’s and Woodworm’s books and other standard greed-stoking MLM tomes as well as a steady diet of monotonous and worthless TEAM CDs; having most of your interactions with non-TEAM members consisting of being hung up on, having doors slammed in your face, or deprogramming interventions being held by family members; and walking away not only owning nothing and learning precious little (other than the cautionary tale to avoid MLM in the future), but also having no job prospects or even any experience of consequence to add to your resume AND being in debt for six figures. Furthermore, the broke unemployed ex-MLMer will be competing against college graduates. No chance.

    MWR: “Also, for our information, 6 out of the 8 most successful people I know are entrepreneurs and did not get higher education.”

    If true, it’s probably because anyone who is successful and educated would know enough to not associate with you.

    MWR: “It’s no wonder that Doctors, Pharmacists, Professors, Engineers are looking for other ways to earn an income…because at the end of it all, the system that got them into the “job” market just DOES NOT offer a way out…..”

    You’re so ignorant it’s hysterical! My buddy is an ace shoulder surgeon; he makes 700K a year. It doesn’t seem like he needs a way out. Every last one of my close friends at college makes 6 figures and has a job that makes yours look like latrine digging by comparison. Your speculation about higher education is so off base I can only guess that it is because you are a dullard who has never been anywhere near a college campus and has no clue what really goes on inside.

    [Editor’s note: Added blockquotes]

  242. Speak Your Truth permalink
    November 10, 2011 8:23 pm

    I couldn’t agree more on Humiliated; excellent post and great points from the other commenter’s too.

    We are seein an influx. This is to be expected..And there are many scammers who have their panties in a bundle right now and boy is it showing up in their comments on here, JS and LM…some that seriously need some serious mental help. It is obvious they are a little pissed off about the truth getting out. But hey chill, the Truth will set you FREE, that is a Promise!

    What little rascal has not come to grips with, because he can’t see past he is all knowing arrogance; is he has NO INFLUENCE on here, not with one person. Very interesting and laughable is how he tries to ‘get us on system’, and promotes the ago books, and then even more glaringly obvious is how manipulative, his little regurgitated rhetoric is..and then the cult speak follows right out of the mouth of Kathy with the same BS. I got news for both of them…I would NEVER in a million years give the scam another red cent….nor would I EVER take their so called all knowing advice on which books I ‘need’ to read.. on anything that has do with my life…

    I am not sure what part of the $60,000 worth of cds that went to the dump; they didn’t get, or why would they think I would buy another one? Not to bright! They lost the privilege of anyone listening to their BS, when they were found out to be frauds, stole, cheated, lied, and continue to. Now, if I ever decide I would like to become a scammer, liar, thief, or con artist…I might reconsider and know right where to go; hope they hold their breath for it. I am not sure how he continues to be so arrogant…But as the saying goes…it IS the Pride before the Fall.

    His comments to SMD is a perfect look into the world of the totalistic, domineering, and thought reform, cult that Humiliated referenced. I also believe they ought to educate themselves with Robert J. Litton’s books, especially all the followers. Humiliated had a great point on the henchmen/yes-men they already know this works and you see they talk about everything else in the world that they believe brainwashes and is scams…us vs them..Cult mentality. Because they can’t admit or address these very same tactics they use. However, they have to ‘try’ and control with their rhetoric and little rascal has done a fine job of displaying that with SMD, and the bullying techniques are top notch…perfect practice makes perfect.

    Now I wish they would actually come on here and stay on topic, discuss the ODDS of the 99% that will never make a profit, only to go broke…or discuss that under the comp-plan, or why they believe anyone should sign that dictating, controlling, ball & chain, gagging thing they call P&P and contract…and Tell the Readers just how many people will EVER make PC. Because people can’t seem to figure out that out of tens or hundres of thousands there is ONLY 7.. Discuss the bankruptcies, defaults, the theft of all the teams, the lies of passive bs, what they did with the legal fund money, why they tried gaming the Attorney General, the special deals, the illegal things they have done, their bullying problems… and on and on. The problem is…they can’t because they are too afraid and are compulsive liars and cons.

    But they want to waste time and create distractions on here, bashing, while trying to claim Christian; in their tiny little delusional, totalistic group cult think world that may work; but not here. I think within his 2 posts, we have just read the handling objections cd and the entire top 50! Not a single original thought…I love it he has to remind SMD; that they have controlled his beliefs and should be believing!

    Wonder if he has a college degree, burnt it or does he still BRAG about it and use it as needed… for credibility in his bio, while bashing it here and his books he plans on writing, just plans to continue to pillage the team cult souls, forcing them to buy?… as das pointed out.

    What is revolting is he acts like he is coming here giving ‘spiritual’ counseling…blames everyone on here for what is wrong with all of America and then with his arrogance tries to ‘counsel’ Vogel & I on what we need to read?…lmao! He has no clue how I or anyone else live, what books we read, how happy, (unhappy) they ‘think’ we are…but just like a cult leader reading the crystal ball, judging and ass- u- ming.

    And the audacity and arrogance of any of them to think…I would even consider what they say has a shred of value to my life or that I should be playing Simon says because they say so? Delusional! What is really hysterical and proves what we all say…is they BREAK their own P&P’s by coming on here without their names to embarrass themselves. Great example rascal. And they want people to believe they are good, law abiding, honorable, have integrity and are doing the Christian thing, and they don’t even follow their own P&P? MV told them to not even click on sites like these either, hmm… Why they aren’t out Showing the lie.. ‘provin’ the critics wrong, after all the only ‘revenge’ is success, right guys?…according to the dogma.

    And to steal the words of I QUIT; “I love catching a sermon from hypocrite. Here, let me hold your soapbox…”

  243. KathyT permalink
    November 10, 2011 8:35 pm

    Vogel and webelieved….. Are you guys all dumb or just pretending to be?
    I have been reading your posts and I have to say that all of you should be ashamed of insulting anyone, even if it’s via a blog. Grow up people, learn some respect, who is ever going to take you seriously?

    “My buddy is a surgeon and makes 700,000”, who are you trying to impress? Good for him.

    Nobody asked you how much money you or your buddies make, so stop being a jerk. You just encouraged me more to get more involved with life business. At least they know how to be professional and treat people with respect.

    So that you know, I shared some of the life materials with a very wealthy business owner in town and he loves, loves the audios. Don’t be so brain dead and judgemental about everyone, people who understand leadership and business principles do appreciate the materials.
    I’m only a customer at this point, but I am beginning to see how twisted thinking people have nowadays. You are all being disrespectful and are making fools out of yourselves. College offers good education and life offers good education, they are only different and produce different results. The person that introduced me to life is very successful and very humble. He does not go around insulting people and telling them they are idiots.
    Please tell me what college you went to if any to make sure I keep my kids away from that so called education you think you have.

  244. KathyT permalink
    November 10, 2011 10:08 pm

    SpeakTheTruth…. Wow… You guys just don’t get tired of making fools of yourselves. You guys assume that the people who are becoming members and customers of life are not professional. Have you guys read your own posts? If you want to see ignorance and lies, and anger just stand in front of a mirror.
    You guys need to really read some leadership book and shut the “poor me, I lost $$”, wake up “everybody” is after your $$. Even schools are!!! No education is free! Gosh, have you guys been under a rock? Everybody is after your money, when you buy food, shoes, books, yes even books from school cost $$.
    I don’t regret getting the life kit one bit. It’s worth at least 3 times that. I still have a Chemistry book I bought for a class for which I paid about $150. Do you want to know how much I’ve used that book since? Everyday, it’s a huge cup holder in my office!!
    I have a masters from an Ivy league school, do you have any idea what my degree cost me? Do you even have a clue on how long its going to take someone like me to pay those loans back? Don’t you tell me about scams.
    Make sure that when you post something 1) you learn to be respectful, 2) post something valuable rather than your ranting about how bad it went for you, 3) don’t insult education – don’t call yourself educated and post childish things

    I am not in team or life. I am just a customer so I can speak all I want and not violate any p&p’s.

    Just so that you know.. You say that only a small percentage make it in these type of business and earn top pay, did it ever occur to you how many people (from all those who get a degree) get paid in the top 5% income earners? Way less than 1%. Get your facts right!!

  245. Vogel permalink
    November 10, 2011 10:16 pm

    Bwahhh hahahahahaha! ROFL! Are you serious? I’m actually starting to feel sorry for you…almost. I can’t believe that such drivel could come from an adult. Do your parents know that you’re playing on the computer after bed time?

  246. Vogel permalink
    November 10, 2011 10:19 pm

    Masters degree from Harvard???…..Bwahhh hahahahahahahaha! Oh lord, I’m gonna bust a rib from laughing. Stop, you’re killing me.

  247. das permalink
    November 11, 2011 1:24 am

    Is it just me or does this same thing happen every time Rascal comes around defending his pyramid scheme? All of a sudden there are customers of the Team/Lief system posting on this blog. They are not with the TEAM, have not signed any contracts, but they spout all this crap about how some wealthy/successful people(that they showed the plan to) love the leadership material.

    Then we find out that they are all posting from the same IP address. Keep scamming Teamers, God knows the truth and in the end you will be judged for your lies and deception.

  248. brent hansen permalink
    November 11, 2011 3:23 am

    KathyT, what exactly is the point you are trying to make by batting back and forth with the folks on this blog? I am reading your posts, but not making heads or tails of what you are trying to accomplish, or what your post is even about.

    I think the point of all of this is that the Life model (as well as 99.9% of all MLMs) is not a valid business model. Do you have any evidence to the contrary? If so, I would like to talk with you or anyone who can show me that evidence.

    I could care less about the value any of you place on a college education, because I believe that has very little to do with any topics being discussed in the contents of this blog. Bottom line is this, the Life compensation plan is not a sustainable model because it is written with a 21 to 1 break even ratio from the network. I am super glad that you are a customer, but just as in most MLMs, customers are either 1. A redefined distributor which is classified as a customer or 2. Liars, or 3. Grandpa or Uncle Bob signed up to meet qualifications.

    I have access to no less than 6-8 MLM back offices, and I can back up my statement with cold hard data. In one existing organization of around 10,000 people, I can show you a single, customer. Imagine that, 10,000 people plus who signed up, with one preferred customer, (who isn’t ordering product) isn’t that amazing? Within that organization there are somewhere around 100 people left who are distributors that haven’t cancelled their autoship yet. So if those 100 never cancel, that could technically mean that they could be redefined as customers as well, for a grand total of 1%. I left Amway after 12 years and left an organization of just less than 1000 people, there is not a single person ordering product, what does that tell you Kathy?

    The original title of this post indicates that this thread is about how much being on the Life system is going to cost you, and the bottom line is way less than 5% can earn a profit from the current Life compensation structure, so being involved is going to cost most people more than they bargain for. If you find value in the products you are purchasing, I am happy for you, but just as most MLMs, the majority of people involved are simply paying to play. The interesting thing is, they are paying to play without a full understanding of the mathematical mechanisms that are there to place obstacles in the way.

    I know with your ‘ivy league’ education, you are smart enough to know the difference between statisitics and mathematics. Statistics are not a force working against you, they are simple a disclosure of the end results. Mathematics are as real a mechanism as the law of gravity, you cannot beat or change mathematics no matter how hard you try. Just as those who jump off a bridge will fall, those who get involved with Life, will lose money, it is an inevitable truth that we all must face.

    If you feel that you and your rich friend find value in spending money on information that you could get for free, then who am I to criticize you for that ? After all, I do not drink alcohol or smoke, because I feel it is a total waste of money, but there are those who are willing to spend their hard-earned dollars on it. That is part of living in a free country, we have the right to spend our money on whatever we feel is worthy of our dollars. So please take your cds, and your precious masters degree, and go find somewhere else to spew your rhetoric. No matter what you say, Life is still not a valid model for the masses.

  249. brent hansen permalink
    November 11, 2011 4:38 am

    Not to mention Kathy, to even qualify for Life compensation, each agent must generate 1 $50 subscription based customer. That would be a new precedence in the industry. Imagine that, 50% of the entire Life volume is required to come from customers. Great setup to keep the FTC off your back, but I would love to see the statistical reality on this one. Give it a year, and it will manifest itself to the world.

    If 99% of Amway distributors cannot generate 50 pv of ‘legitimate’ customers sales with items that people need and use every single day of their life, ie. laundry detergent, cosmetics, toothpaste, toilet paper, vitamins, etc. etc. How are people going to generate a $50 retail sale of items people do not need or use on a daily basis? I have an answer, sign grandma up, that will work.

    Oh, perhaps this will be another ‘click here’ and confirm smokescreen set up to legitimize the money grabbing ‘opportunity’. “I swear your honor, they were clicking each month an confirming that they had retail customers, we are not at fault your honor.” hahaha!!
    Lets get real Kathy!

  250. Speak Your Truth permalink
    November 11, 2011 5:34 am

    I have to agree das, it is quite predictable and amazing isn’t it. And even more amazing is the hypocrisy.

    I know Kath, got more truth and education from Brent’s post in 3 minutes than she will ever get in the entire history of being a ‘customer’? Customer… huh..right…lol. Gotta love that one.

    Thanks Brent. Now on to more important things.

  251. switch permalink
    November 11, 2011 8:08 am

    OH hey, I have my hand raised…, I’m being respectful….

    Here, I have a great start on rascal’s new table of contents to his new book….

    Chapter I
    Rascal’s awesome but fake journey through Amway/Quixtar.
    – What we didn’t tell our team
    – The dirty little secrets that fucked everybody over

    Chapter II
    How we made it through the infamous six month waiting period.
    – How many bribes our glorious upline gave us to stay on team
    – The fun we had bullshitting our way through everyone’s living room

    Chapter III
    Larceny and Mona Vie save the day!!!!
    – how we went emerald and ruby, within a matter of days
    – you’re not trying hard enough
    – there’s no such thing as an illegal claim in M.V.
    – Oprah and Dr. Oz are just mediocre folks in life…they never give back
    – How we go about and telling everyone else, they’re wrong in life

    Chapter IV
    The launch of LIFE!
    – Lying
    – Into
    – F@cking
    – Eternity

  252. switch permalink
    November 11, 2011 8:12 am

    I would have to say, Kath……you’ve stepped into the wrong yard.

  253. humiliated permalink
    November 11, 2011 9:01 am

    Kathy, what the leaders of TEAM are doing is called LOVE BOMBING, it is not “being respectful”. The sooner that you learn the difference, the sooner you can start the process of “deprogramming”.

    I find it incredibly ironic that you come on here and chastise everyone for being “insulting” yet you have called my friends brain dead, fools, dumb and ignorant. I guess your CDs don’t cover the whole “lead by example” principle, Maybe you should demand a refund as this is a primary principle of leadership.

    You then tell Vogel that you don’t give a crap that his friend makes 700k and you take it completely out of context. He was merely emphasizing that all of the people that he knows, who have formal educations are indeed making money, contrary to what Rascal said.

    But, would you like to know what pisses me off the most? I will tell you. You are an unmitigated liar and you represent what is wrong with the MLM world. You say WHATEVER IT TAKES to sell the “product”. You stated in an earlier post;
    ” I went to 2 years of college and I feel as I’ve already learned more valuable information with just the first 3 audios and the book. You all should get it!”.

    Then you tell us that you have a masters from an Ivy League university. I guess you will be telling us next that you are a highly ranked member of the Mensa club and that is how you finished your undergrad and masters in two years.

    If you decide to come back here and continue to “dialogue” with us, please respond to Brent’s posts and, please, for the love of God, stop with the bullshit.

  254. Speak Your Truth permalink
    November 11, 2011 9:11 am

    Amen! Humiliated…I noticed the lies too…The TRUTH always finds them out! Brain dead? Amazing! Thanks for your energy and time and shinning the spot light on those the ugly truth of yet another LIE..f..ER!

  255. humiliated permalink
    November 11, 2011 9:24 am

    Thanks SYT. Back at ya! I have a question for you and everyone else though. I know that there was a “fake it ’til you make it” credo that you all were taught to live by in TEAM but did they encourage you to all out lie like Kathy is doing? I have noticed it time and time again with TEAMERS that post on here and it really disturbs me.

  256. Vogel permalink
    November 11, 2011 9:40 am

    Seriously, if these people were smart enough to concoct convincing lies, rather than the pathetically transparent BS they dish out (which a preschooler could see through), then they wouldn’t be relegated to whoring for TEAM/LIEf — the bottom rung of the “career” ladder.

  257. KathyT permalink
    November 11, 2011 10:37 am

    For as much time as you all spend in this dumb blog, and as educated as you all claim to be, you aren’t very bright.
    This is mom and daughter sharing same account and laughing at you all at the same time.
    You guys are quite he inspiration for the younger generation, let me see, firts you quit, backstab the people you are partners with, complain that you didn’t make it, tell everyone how bad it was for you (oh, you poor little things, want a sucker now?) and then you insult people who are trying to get ahead. My mom and I are really enjoying all your nagging and tantrums, keep the laughs coming.
    You guys should start another blog called. “I quit because I had no backbone so now I just want everyone to be as miserable as I am – if you are a miserable as I am, come join me”
    I get it now, as I read more through your pathetic posts, you guys are all in Amway and are pissed because it isn’t working out for you all and you are trying to recruit people through here by bashing on team or life. I might wait until a start getting more CDs and books and then I’ll come back for a few more laughs. You all are hilarious. Thanks for the encouragement to do the right thing and keep on learning.

  258. switch permalink
    November 11, 2011 11:56 am

    uh oh….. a tag team…..what shall we do?

    We’re being ambushed by SCAMWAY WANNA-BE’S!

  259. November 11, 2011 12:08 pm

    Everyone – With the launch of LIFE, what are the average and/or expected costs of Living Intentionally for Excellence now? If you’re a go-getter, is it still $500/month? What are the TEAM tools monthly costs now that all programs have been rolled into one?

  260. Speak Your Truth permalink
    November 11, 2011 12:15 pm


    Are you serious? You were caught in a lie and now you want us to believe your ‘story’ is you are 2 different people..(mom & daughter)? hahaha!!! Nice try…

    Either address the issues..or go find a different blog to spread your lies…Why don’t 1 of your personalities come back and address Brent”s post or take a pick there is plenty of posts and issues to address.

  261. humiliated permalink
    November 11, 2011 12:15 pm

    Thanks We Believed. That is what I thought.

    Vogel, you call it like you see it and I don’t know what we would do without you.

    Kathys, I call Bullshit on you and your “alter ego. ”

    I wasn’t in Amway but I don’t know what that has to do with anything.

    You haven’t dealt with the questions posed to you by Brent so please quit coming on here and repeatedly insulting us, (oddly the thing that you ‘judge’ us for) and deal with the information that Brent has provided you. You came on here telling us that the “University of Team” will be far more lucrative financially than a REAL university so please do tell us how you deal with the mathematics of it? This information was provided to you from someone who has made more money and had more success in the MLM industry than you will in 10 lifetimes. Also, Brent quit because his conscience would not allow him to continue ripping people off, not because he couldn’t make it.

    BTW, we all try to stay calm and deal with people like yourself who have become fully indoctrinated because most of the people on here have been there, done that, and they do feel empathy for you. However, we are human and we do get immensely frustrated when we beg and plead for you people to analyze the financial information provided by Brent (who you can contact at ANY time and discuss any questions you may have about this non-winning formula) and you all take great pains to avoid dealing with the reality of the financial situation.

  262. Speak Your Truth permalink
    November 11, 2011 12:21 pm

    Another great post Humiliated, I didn’t answer becasue webelieved had it covered. 😉

    Amthrax thanks, I don’t have the answers…other than it is WAY more than they will ever make!

  263. KathyT permalink
    November 12, 2011 10:18 am

    Oh boy… You guys just don’t give up that “Poor me”, “Look what I suffered”, attitude. Huge difference between attitudes being displayed here and those at life events. It’s typical to see people with a “life sucks” attitude to do their best at throwing rocks at others from far away.

  264. das permalink
    November 12, 2011 10:43 am


    My life is actually better than it has ever been now that I am free of the fake happiness perpetuated by the cult atmosphere at those Life events you are talking about. It’s great being free Kathy and not living a lie…can you say that? Enjoy your seminars and when the blinders come off we will be here to help and support you. One day you will wake up and hopefully you won’t be devastated financially like most here have been.

    Enjoy your Saturday! 🙂

  265. November 12, 2011 10:46 am


    I really hope you make it in the MLM, maybe you belong to the small percentage who will earn some money. So, no “life sucks” for me, and no “throwing rocks”.

    However, I am still glad that these guys told their story with as-you-write-it rock throwing. It confirmed that the MLM way of doing business is not for me; I do need nor like to pretend that everything is fine or great, or to lie and to cheat to earn my money. I rather make money by doing real work for real clients who appreciate me. And I do not care that maybe it is not as much as you are probably going to make.

    I notice you are not consisted in your posts. Perhaps because you are lying? Why are you attending life events when “I am not in team or life. I am just a customer so I can speak all I want and not violate any p&p’s.”

    You are so happy in your surrealistic world with your surrealistic friends where everyone is so positive and so happy. Wake up!

  266. Used to be "all-in" permalink
    November 12, 2011 12:57 pm

    Amthrax – In response to your question about what someone’s monthly costs will look like in the new LIFE business, my short answer is: Not much has changed from my post above dated September 5, 2011.

    The major difference now is that being on auto-ship with MonaVie is not required to go PowerPlayer. So this MAY lower an individual’s overall costs. However, a person still needs to generate 200 PV through their LIFE personal number and spending over $500 per month for someone seriously building the business will still effectively be required. I wouldn’t be surprised if this was closer to $700 to $1,000 per month with all of the new tools. Per the Huber’s bankruptcy filing they were spending nearly $6,000 per month on business expenses, so it’s possible my analysis could actually be extremely conservative if you want to be a profit sharer one day.

    The biggest change from the business building side of things is that Orrin split the old system packages between TEAM and LIFE. When you combine these two, I don’t believe the costs have changed much. For example, a serious LIFE member will be on the LIFE, LLR and AGO series packages ($125 per month combined and 125 PV). The LIFE package is a new cost ($50 individually). If a person has one customer, then this should get them to 175 out of the 200 points needed to go PowerPlayer. I’m unclear how a person would get the remaining points; a second customer would do it, but in the absense of this I’m not sure. Maybe someone can help me understand this piece? Individuals can make money on these PV orders (I won’t say “profit” because as Brent has proved, this will happen for only a small minority of the members).

    Orrin would say that if someone gets 3 customers, their system is “free”. But I’d have two responses to this: 1) I’d love to see the math on the % of members who actually achieve this, and how sustainable month-after-month this is and 2) What would actually be free? My guess is this would only be related to the LIFE package (so $50 less per month)…pretty immaterial in the grand scheme of things for a real builder.

    The new TEAM training kit consists of 2 TEAM CD’s & 2 SOL CD’s every 2 weeks, which would be required for a business builder. I don’t have the exact dollar figures on this, but typically CD’s cost $6 apiece, so $6 x 4 CD’s x 2 weeks = $48 per month excluding shipping, which is probably another $5 – $10 per month.

    So these two pieces alone (at a minimum) will cost someone $125 + $60 = $185 per month.

    These costs are peanuts compared to the real costs that won’t be fully disclosed to new prospects. These additional costs would include weekly open meetings ($5 if you’re single), monthly seminars ($25 if you’re single and on standing order ticket), major convention tickets ($125 x 3 times per year), men’s leadership events ($10 x 8 times per year), super opens ($10 throughout the year) and webcast fees for distance teams (You pay for a minimum of 5 people and “hope” to get reimbursed – prospects are free and if someone else doesn’t show up, the onus is on you to collect. So for weekly opens you’ll pay $25 for each location and $50 for super opens. My guess is that for seminars it must be $25 x 5 = $125.) I haven’t begun to get into the costs for the business building packs, loose leaf CD’s, books, Top 50 pack, open meeting flip chart board, DVD of the month, website renewal fees, brochures, the actual cost of enrolling in LIFE ($85), the cost of enrolling in MonaVie ($39) if you actually want access to the fitness “F”, hotels, gas, and other items. See my September 5th post for further details.

    So long story short, not a whole lot has changed from a cost perspective to run your business if you’re hitting it hard.

  267. Speak Your Truth permalink
    November 12, 2011 1:12 pm

    Me~ Great Post! There you have it KathyT..right from someone who see’s the truth, who has never been involved because of this site..and not what they want to see.

    You know KT…I pity you, because I do believe you are lying not only to us on somethings but the worse lie you tell is the one you tell to yourself. So, why don’t you come clean..I highly doubt you have a team, hence why you claim you are only a customer, or a very tiny one, probably with the same 5 people that have been in since the Amway days and just have jumped on the bandwagon of we are negative and hurting someone else’s business…but it is you and the others who are hurting yourselves and many tens of thousands of others. Do you not know we see you as a puppet on a string, blindly following and reguritating the same BS they have been saying for almost 2 decades? You must know the History. It wouldn’t be your business so why do you think you have to come here? So rather than use your own thinking, which is glaringly obvious… hence the thought reform that has you. If a few cds help you great…but I think if you were 100% honest, you hang around because you are lonely, and want to belong, perhaps you don’t believe you can make true honest friends, so you settle for fake ones, that don’t give a crap about you only your donatitons of that hard earned cash. Just think what you could do with all that money you go withdrawl from your bank account and hand over to the PC.You are loyal to the wrong people…they aren’t your friends, well, they pretend right up til you stop paying them.

    I believe if you do have a master’s degree then you used it and that is why you have a JOB, then you turn around and donate that hard earned cash to something you call a business for someone else to own a condo in Florida, to have a multimillion dollar lifestyle to throw in your face with Your money, send their kids to college, perhaps if those who you donate your hard earned cash to would have a medical problem lets say with their foot, and need surgery… then the PC, will be able to pay cash for it but you won’t, but all those who are delusional will go broke and wonder how they will pay for their medical bills. You do realize you have to pay some high premiums in the LIEf business, even though you will never make a dime profit.. because they don’t offer any insurance plan to help differ the costs of those families and their children, that just keep spending. Read up on Cults, you should be able to figure out why you keep hanging around.

    You seriously…need to THINK. Check out the post on the LIEf compensation plan..”Reader Report: Figures don’t LIE…and ask yourself, how with a clear conscience can you support this when this so- called ‘business opprotunity’ lies, and robs people of a whole lot more than money and damages lives by the thousands?

  268. Speak Your Truth permalink
    November 12, 2011 1:22 pm

    Used to Be “all in”~ Thanks a bunch, great post!

  269. Speak Your Truth permalink
    November 12, 2011 3:17 pm

    Oh and BTW KT…If you would read the comments from those in Team/MV/ LIEf; that you claim are soooo different in attitude, than what you see in here… you are once again…self-deceived. I dare you to read all the comments that come from the people that come from the unrealistic ‘posititve’ cult enviroment with the name calling and really bad attitudes and some downright nasty, hateful, and vulger comments towards enyone here. Are you that blinded; you cannot see this?

    Don’t feel too bad about yourself that is what thought reform does to people (Robert J. Lifton, Steve Hassan, Rick Ross etc and their books).. the ‘system’…creates that dependency on them and plays on the for the desires of others, like Making a Difference, Noble Causes, and the desperate need for some who need to belong and have friends.
    This is exactly why you need to read and the books written many experts. You also should read the Merchants of Deception…which by the way.. is an
    E-book…and is FREE! The link is on this site. Happy Reading!

  270. brent hansen permalink
    November 12, 2011 4:48 pm

    Used to be all in,

    Great information filled post, I appreciate that. One question on the ‘3 and its free’ program. Is this three ‘retail’ customers, and if so what is the retail price on the basic package?

    Many companies are implementing 3 and its free (gives them a sense of legitimacy), but some do not require the ‘3’ to be retail, they can actually be wholesale customers who are not participating in the compensation plan.

    I would appreciate any info. you could provide. thanks!

  271. Used to be "all-in" permalink
    November 12, 2011 5:38 pm

    Brent – I do not know offhand, but I’ll do some research and see if I can find out.

    My question is that since this is not in the official compensation plan document, does that mean it could be more like a short term marketing incentive program that could easily be eliminated if Orrin so chooses? I know in the MonaVie compensation plan, the first order bonus and other “small time” bonuses are right in the plan I believe and thus are integral to how the company does business.

    I didn’t see the “three-and-free” program listed anywhere in the official documents that prospects read or sign for the LIFE company. It appears to be only something Orrin keeps mentioning. This doesn’t seem to give the prospects much of a legal standing to enforce this bonus, but that seems to be a general trend with the company.

    Maybe someone could direct me to the place where this program is found in writing.

  272. nathali permalink
    November 13, 2011 1:11 pm

    I’m playing the smallest violin in the world for all of you big losers. I love that you all say you tried it for years and never made any money i can’t help but to wonders how bad of a student you all must be. I bet if i was to seat down with all of you right now you all have spent a lot of money but didn’t show the plan or actually learn anything or worst yet did any of the work. You losers are the only reason your business this not work so stop trying to scare other people because Not everyone goes down like you without a fight. You know i could seat here to go back and fords about how stupid you all are but i dint have the time because i actually have to run my business ohhhhh yea make money like you actually never did. One more thing before I go, stop telling people how it didn’t work tell them the truth. Tell them how you were no much a coward to do what you knew had to be done, and if you feel so right that we are wrong i put my results against yours and let them judge who is right

  273. brent hansen permalink
    November 13, 2011 3:32 pm


    Most of the people here have built bigger teams than you can ever dream of building. Anytime you are ready to put your money where your mouth is contact me, I have a challenge for you. And, by the way there is a cash reward attached to it as well. Take up the challenge, prove it, or buzz off!

    @Used to be all in

    I haven’t seen the 3 and its free anywhere either, although I had a PC member call me all excited about it. Maybe it was a program they were planning in pre-launch, and then dumped later on. I am only looking to verify if they launched with a 3 and its free or not. If I had to guess, I would say no, they are too greedy for that.

  274. Speak Your Truth permalink
    November 13, 2011 4:12 pm

    Brent & UTBAI~

    The only time I have seen that mentioned was in Orrin’s blog post when he was ‘bragging’ about the LIEf program being the greatest thing the information age and MLM industry has Ever seen…hahaha. Perhaps they just thought it wasn’t ‘duplicatable’ and changed their minds…lol

  275. Speak Your Truth permalink
    November 13, 2011 4:17 pm

    Man, their ‘system’ produces some real world class leadership and ‘education’…one only has to read Nathali post to see how effective it is, and every single person that comes here to trash and spews venom, confirms it also…that is if anyone can understand it…hahaha.. perhaps using spell check would help.

  276. das permalink
    November 13, 2011 4:59 pm

    I’ve seen better grammar from Nigerian scammers than Nathali. They obviously didn’t go to university, lmao!

    Brent, did Nathali email you yet? 🙂

  277. November 13, 2011 5:25 pm

    He SYT and das;

    No offense taken here, but English is my second language as well. I still make mistakes in my English words, pronunciation and grammar, although I have a master degree (obviously not in English, ha, ha).

    The readers (pro and contra) come here from everywhere because people abroad can also become MLM-victims. Do not discourage others to write their opinion by making them afraid by criticizing their not-so-perfect English-written message; Instead attack or support the content of the message.

  278. brent hansen permalink
    November 13, 2011 5:42 pm

    das, no email yet, and you would think for a $1000 she would be in huh? By the way Nathali, who is going down without a fight? And you are totally right Nathali, I am too big of a coward to engage with Life because I do know what has to be done in order to succeed, and neither my honor, nor my character will allow me to do it. Call it cowardice if you will, I call it a conscience.

  279. switch permalink
    November 13, 2011 6:17 pm

    nathali says-
    “You losers are the only reason your business this not work so stop trying to scare other people because Not everyone goes down like you without a fight.”

    ….and which fight are you watching? ROFL

    You think we’re “scaring” other people?????? With what?…… The truth?


  280. Speak Your Truth permalink
    November 13, 2011 6:56 pm


    I am the first one to admit, my spelling is poor but here is the reason, that I brought it up.

    Nathali says; “You know i could seat here to go back and fords about how stupid you all are but i dint have the time because i actually have to run my business ohhhhh yea make money like you actually never did.”

    When someone calls everyone else ‘Stupid’…perhaps they ought to expect some correction.

    I would otherwise not have brought it up, because by nature I would not one to pick on people…so I do understand your point.

  281. brent hansen permalink
    November 15, 2011 4:53 pm

    Amthrax, I do not see your “HELL NO IM NOT JOINING” vote option on poll daddy???

  282. Kyle Combes permalink
    November 18, 2011 11:29 am

    I have a question for Mr. MLM Punisher. You were involved with the TEAM and Monavie, you purchased a decent amount of training materials, but what did you actually do? Did you build the business?

  283. LMAO permalink
    November 18, 2011 3:05 pm

    Wow! There really are websites where people come to cry about how hard Life is….no pun intended! LOL….Maybe all of you who can’t muster up the courage to tap into the gifts the Lord has blessed you with should move to Iraq! At least then you can see how much you really do take for granted! Maybe it’s time to stop looking out the window and start looking in the mirror people. All of you feel free to post your addressees and I’ll go to UPS and ship each one of you a gallon of milk with a message of “grow a spine” on the container… hoo I gave up on life and it’s all Orrin Woodwards fault! I just want to remain in the fetal position and cry about all of the things I haven’t tried in life!!! This isn’t fare!! Not only do you have all the pricing wrong you haven’t even given this the due diligence to complain properly. Don’t worry fella….we have a system for that! I really do hope you people find what it is your looking for in life but try not to blame everyone else if you don’t. God Bless all of you….even the ones pointing your fingers! 🙂

  284. das permalink
    November 18, 2011 7:15 pm

    @ LMAO, I like who I see in the mirror today. It’s pretty cool to be free of the mind control of the TEAM as opposed to putting on my red tie, white shirt, and pretending to be something I am not! Then going out to con my friends and family into THE Almighty Orrin’s pyramid scheme. My question to you is, what do you see when you look in the mirror after asking yourself how many in your downline are making a profit after expenses? If you knew the truth about Orrin you wouldn’t put him on that pedestal. God bless? Really? 🙂

  285. das permalink
    November 18, 2011 7:21 pm

    Another critic coming here to attack us for getting the truth out, LMAO!

  286. das permalink
    November 18, 2011 7:30 pm

    They have a system for everything fella, and it isn’t free, lol. And this week we are having a cult cd listening contest. Whoever listens to the most brainwashing cds gets to spend some time with their “movin on” upline. Oh my…those were the days.

  287. Brent Hansen permalink
    November 18, 2011 7:49 pm


    I spent around $250,000 on business building materials over a 12 year career with Legacy and then Team. I also built a team with just less than 1,000 people in it at any given time. What is it you would like to discuss?

  288. Brent Hansen permalink
    November 18, 2011 8:27 pm


    If you are affiliated with Life, are you able to comment on this site, I believe not? You see, you and your family lose your freedom of speech when you agree to be affiliated with that group. Better be careful commenting here. hahaha…

    But seriously now, I am not laying in the fetal position, nor am I blaming Orrin. I should have been smart enough to wise up to all of their shenanigans long before I did.

    I am not sure if you would consider 12 years with Legacy/Team as enough time for due diligence, what do you think?

    Understand that the guys on this blog are not slouches, most have built significant groups, and have felt the repercussions of unfair and inadequate compensation plans, not to mention shady and manipulating tactics.

    I know what your chances are, so why don’t you poke your head back in here in 6 months and give us a full report of your status, and we will see how your spine is.

  289. Kyle Combes permalink
    November 18, 2011 10:05 pm

    Well I have heard a handful of these cds and I know the books they reccommend people in the business read. Pure logic is that in any business , you have to put in hard work, just buying stuff doesn’t make you successful. If I want to build a house, I don’t buy a hammer and a saw and all the tools but never lift a finger. You said I thousand people team, well I asked my friends who is involved where 1000 people puts you and that’s the 6 almost 7 figure range, so I’m not sure. If I believe you were as involved as you claim you were. Now people get online and argue who is right and who is wrong, but they aren’t really attacking character. Both sides are wrong if you are making false accusations. What happened to common courtesy and respect. There happen to be people that agree with thr principles taught and just becuz we aren’t involved doent mean we go around bashing everything about it and call the leaders shady and cult leaders. I don’t know them personally and You don’t so who are we to judge. And very well your experience 12 yearss ago is different than now. Things change over time. I’m sure Orrin learned lots over the years and other Team members felt the bumps in the road. The ones who didn’t quit should be called brainwashed tho. They just weren’t quitters. The people that left shouldn’t call others ignorant. My best friend loves Calculus, I hate it, I don’t call him brainwashed cuz he does math with it every day, and becuz I don’t understand it and spent money trying doesn’t mean it doesn’t work, it just means its not for me.
    What the first guy said , he had a good point, grow a spine and move on. You had a bad experience well learn from your mistake dust your sandles and walk away, why sit and type complaints about anything?. You are being critics, it doesn’t matter if you have a valid point or not, keep it to yourself and move on.
    That’s not a character attack, its like a Life Lesson: Grow Up, Mature, Be the bigger person. If. I had to choose between the two, be a critic or “Live Intentionally For Excellnce”, Hey I would choose the Living man, no one likes a critic.

  290. Kyle Combes permalink
    November 18, 2011 10:09 pm

    sorry for all the typos I typed it on my phone. *people that did not quit it should not be called brainwashed

  291. Brent Hansen permalink
    November 18, 2011 10:55 pm


    Once again I will ask you, what is it you would like to discuss? Does telling the truth make you a critic? Please define critic? If you knew in your core that something immoral and corrupt existed, would you consider yourself a critic if you did everything you could to inform others of the corruption?

    I don’t think you understand or realize the magnitude of the situation that exists. Did you see the thread here about all of the top leaders who have filed bankruptcy? Have you read the readers report about compensation dollar allocation? Do you believe this is criticism, or do you think there could possibly be some reality to anything written here?

    Just the mere fact of you being brave enough to come on here and post something with your name attached to it indicates to me that you are a person of character. Are you here to call all of us critics, or do you really want to know the truth? If it is the latter, I promise you the truth can be found within the posts written on this blog.

    Are you calling people quitters who possibly lost their homes, their cars, their 401K accounts, their family relationships, and even their marriages, all so they could pursue this ever elusive dream? For every success story you see with Life, we can provide evidence of thousands who have lost millions supporting scams like this.

    Do you know what the maximum success ratio from your compensation plan is? Do you know what kind of volume you have to generate on a monthly basis in order to break even on your own subscription? Do you know where the 30% that flows back to Life goes to? Do you know who the founding partners of Life are, and what their financial stake in the company is? Do you know why some of the top leaders in Life have filed bankruptcy?

    Do you know why one of the founders of Life has 27 companies registered in his name? Do you know how many people out of the 70-100K participants of Team prior to the Amway lawsuit were earning a check from their profit sharing program? Do you know how to think critically, and find answers for yourself, or do you just follow blindly.

    You see Kyle, I can name dozens of top earners who have left on their own accord because they were tired of the injustice that existed, and continues to exist within systems like this. Have you talked to any of them? Many of their writings are here within the walls of this blog. My advice to you is this, you better know damn well what you are involved in. If you don’t it is going to cost you lots of money, and even more precious than that will be the lost time.

    You have no idea who we are and what our motive is so how could you insinuate that we could possibly be spineless?

    I hate to tell you this, but the only thing that was learned by them over the last 12 years was how to play the game to the nth degree. Why do you think Life has been launched? Any idea? And how do you know that the people here do not know the leaders you are following personally? You make a lot of assumptions without much knowledge to back them up.

    Like I told LMAO why don’t you come back in 6 months as well and give us a full report. By the way, we will still be here God willing. Good Luck!

  292. Dorothy permalink
    November 19, 2011 1:05 am

    This commenter requested that her comments be removed from this site.

  293. littledufflebagboy permalink
    November 19, 2011 5:54 am

    this comment should probably go on the blog thread but I figured I’d put it here. the people who are left in LIEF are all going nuts doing their own blogs. I think everyone here is “making a difference” lol 🙂 remember using that phrase yuck. I haven’t deleted anyone on my friends list on Facebook that were cross line or upline but every single one them small or big has a wordpress blog account now about LIEF. kinda insane don’t u think?

  294. CarlW permalink
    November 19, 2011 7:16 am

    Ok. You guys say life is a scam, that they make money off people. What doesn’t? Have you guys ever bought a pair of shoes or eaten at a restaurant? Do you realize that some restaurants have over 500% markup? Jett’s a scam!! Everyone stop goin out to eat, stop buying shoes or clothes or.. Just hide inside a cave and you’ll be safe.
    None of you have offered a solution for people who are looking for a way out and don’t have initial large capital to invest in a conventional business. My buddy is doing quite well with Team and his results go well beyond $$. What he learns through the books and audios he applies and is doing great at work and at home. What is wrong with that? You can’t tell his kids and wife that team and life don’t work.
    What do you have to offer to those people who you are telling to not join? Do you have a way out for them? I was one of them. O cake to guía site And red all tour bull.~#%~#~ and you all convinced me to become a member. If you are trying to keep people away, it’s not working. You say that you were in it for some time and didn’t make it, tough. I know people who worked a job for 20+years and didn’t make it, they get fired with not even a “thank you.” I know people who hold degrees higher than all of you who have been unemployed for over a year because they are overqualified. That ladies and gentlemen is a SCAM. You are all either too sizzy to toughen up in the business world or you are recruiting people for a real scam.

    Answer this question: if not team/life then what works? I want answers and not whining or criticism. Whining and criticism does not help anyone. What have you got?

  295. littledufflebagboy permalink
    November 19, 2011 7:33 am

    shouldn’t the cost of being in LIfE be ur life? it’s like straight up selling ur soul. I mean we all know the team is getting smaller by the second. heck I look at my former upline Jim Martin he lost a ton of people between Q/MV switch an I know right before the LIfE launch people were falling off left and right. the guy might have 10 people in his group that have followed him from like 8 years ago now it’s just some new people in Florida tons of Michigan have left his group. hope he still has his tools cause I might need plumbing work done to my house soon lol.

    I have a question for those of you that were RT’s and such that would have been close to the PC, do u think any of them are actually good or do you think they are trapped by Orrin? obviously big O is a snake, I have always thought tim and Claude were money hungry and def give off a vibe of being bully’s. but what about chris, George, and bill? do u think they are just stuck for fear of O? I always thought the three of them actually seemed some what good peoples. any thoughts? we all know the Hawkins thing is joke and had it handed to him so they could show “it’s working”.

  296. November 19, 2011 8:28 am

    Read the post Attack of the Leadership Blog Clones on this website. Since writing that, there have been many more cheerleadership blogs set up.

  297. November 19, 2011 8:40 am


    Sometimes I notice (and even understand) that some contra-MLM contributors try to “force” their opinion to others readers, and I think this way the message they want to tell will not reach “the indoctrinated believers”. In a way it’s feeding the “we” against “them” attutide, and unwillingly they even help MLM-crooks this way: “look, the people on this site are doing what the great Orrin predicted”. Proteamers will even be more convinced of their “truth” and are not willing to really think about what is told; in fact it will throw them even further in the claws of the MLM-crooks. That’s the reason why they are starting to attack the critics’ characters. What else can they do? They so strongly believe in the system, that they do not see or just deny the facts about how they are doing financially. In their eyes they do not see the issues you are referring to, so why write about it! The way they see it that the critics are attacking their “safe harbor, their friends, their dreams and their hopes”

    If the contributors stay with facts and explain them, proteamers’ eyes will eventually open, (and new prospects will make up their own mind). I strongly believe that this way you’ll plant a seed of doubt in the minds of the believers, that just needs time to grow to be able to open their eyes and enable them to see the fog they are surrounded with. Tell, but try not to convince people; the latter is just the same mechanism Orrin and his groupies are using.

    I am contributing because I feel that innocent, hardworking people are so often abused by a few crooks, who just show smooth talks, often by (ab)using the Christian believes, to rip of people. I know the internet is a powerful medium to express your voice; I also know that some people will not get the message, and still will fall for the trap. But the information is there; take it or leave it. I believe that real freedom is about making choices, even if it means that you know someone is going to make a terrible financial mistake. Sometimes people need to learn the hard way to start to listen.

    I consider it a small victory for this weblog against the MLM-scams, the moment just one person writes on this blog that he or she decided to quit or not even join.

  298. littledufflebagboy permalink
    November 19, 2011 9:05 am

    amen! and the truth is sweet to the ear and the pocket book lol. I personally think this will collapse soon, I doubt any real growth is happening. they aren’t legit at all self-proclaimed gurus what a joke. webelieved- ur killing me give me some dirt on these douch bags lol

  299. CarlW permalink
    November 19, 2011 9:36 am

    webelieved.. Maybe next time you have something more meaningful to post other than a bunch of whining. I raise my question again, what have you got? What can you offer to those who are looking for a way out. If complaining is all you’ve got., you are not impressing anyone.

  300. November 19, 2011 9:51 am

    Dear CarlW

    May I ask you the same question? Try to convince me, an outsider, that I am really missing the chance of a life time. What do you have got? What can you offer me? Convince me only with facts why this way of making money is working for you, and should work for others?

    Btw what is your definition of whining?

  301. Used to be "all-in" permalink
    November 19, 2011 10:24 am

    CarlW – Let me ask you a question (since the Team teaches people to answer a question with a question)…if you had invested with Madoff and were indoctrinated to believe that all other investment vehicles were inferior, what would you do if you learned through the course of events that Madoff was a crook and in reality had only created a massive ponzi scheme? Wouldn’t you take the information you found out about the unethical things that Madoff was doing and take your money out of his company and put it back in your local bank or under your bed? Don’t you think that the the proper question isn’t whether there is a better investment vehicle out there, but whether the allegations against Madoff are true? If the allegations are true, then who cares what else is out there? That is a secondary consideration, assuming you ultimately make choices based on what is moral or ethical.

    This is why I quit the TEAM. I had been pushing hard growing a team all over the country and was not looking for a reason to quit. However, when presented with the facts that these individuals are presenting on this blog I made a decision to make an ethical choice, rather than what would be good short term for the pocket book. Choice #1: Are the allegations true? If so, why would you follow these crooks? Choice #2: If the allegations are true and you can’t morally accept what the PC are doing in the name of God and freedom, then quit, be thankful for some of the books that you read and any true friendships you’ve made that will outlast any short term business considerations, and do anything else you want.

    In my opinion, ANYTHING is better than consciously scamming people through guilt and manipulation tactics and false promotion/half truths/lies.

    These are the indisputable facts:
    1) George Guzzardo nearly finalized a strategic default on investment property in Arizona and by his own admission had no issues with the morality of such a decision (read his blog posting as well as the article in the Tucson newspaper);

    2) Multiple current big TEAM leaders filed bankruptcy in the past couple of years and have still been promoting how amazing the opportunity is from stage (read the actual bankruptcy documents linked on this blog, these leader’s TEAM biographies, and I even challenge you to go back through the speaking schedules of these leaders and prove for yourself the fact that they spoke on TEAM stages multiple times right before, during and after their filings)

    3) Pastor Dickie no longer speaks on TEAM stages as he did for upwards of 10 years I’d guess. He was the spiritual mentor to most of the major TEAM leaders and Orrin has personally stated that Pastor led him to Christ. Why is Pastor no longer around?

    4) Where did the former TEAM office CEO, COO, lawyer, and many other round tables go? Why would they leave such a wonderful, lucrative and successful business? The listing of many of these individuals can be found on this blog. Maybe someone else can send you the link. Why don’t you personally try to connect with these individuals and see if they’ll share their story? They probably won’t be able to share a lot of details since they don’t know you, but you will notice without a doubt that they won’t defend what the PC are doing right now.

    5) A major piece of TEAM literature and plan-showing involves discussing the B-type, passive, residual nature of building a pipeline income. Please take your LIFE policies & procedures to a lawyer and ask him if your income is passive once you build a huge group.

    6) Do a quick internet search related to the lawsuits the TEAM went through with Quixtar. Did you know Orrin, Chris and Tim were fined $25 million as a result of their theft of thousands of people from Quixtar? Read the actual court document – it’s public. I bet you never heard that from any of your upline?

    In short, you’re asking the wrong question. ANYTHING is better than doing something that is not moral or ethical (and as many of the leaders here would say, legal, but I’m not a lawyer and I’m not going to address that right now).

  302. CarlW permalink
    November 19, 2011 11:25 am


    Answer to your question: I don’t have anything to offer just yet, that’s why I joined team/life.
    Now your turn, what’s your answer?

    @used-to-be-all in – is this the way you recommend everyone approach to things in life. Let me just give you this scenario, I work in corporate America and the company I work for has been sued in multiple occasions for millions and millions of dollars. So are you suggesting that people like myself who work for fortune 500 companies decline to all job offers because at one point they might have done seething that lead to a lawsuit by someone else? Do you hav any idea how many these fortune 500 companies people employ today? Should we all just quit too?
    Or is that ok in your opinion, because it’s a job and that’s normal?
    Many may not always agree with the changes or opinions and decisions and that’s ok. I can tell you that I most people don’t agree with over 80% what their leaders (in the companies they work for) , but they also know that they can’t do a darn thing about it. They are stuck in the rat race.
    Let’s look at his other scenario, marriage today is at over 50% failure rate. In your opinion, and from all the available data which is everywhere, should people no longer take a chance? Why should they if it’s already proven that the have less than 50% chance to make it?
    Any business owner, statistics tells us that over 85% of those businesses will not make it in the real world. Why try, right?
    So, you say anything is better. If that were true why aren’t most people out there making it?
    I still haven’t seen anyone post an answer to my original question. What have you got that works?

  303. November 19, 2011 12:37 pm

    Dear CarlW

    In general I believe you have the best chances and freedom with a good education. Another post shows that your income increases enormously with a college education. America has still many colleges who are affordable, and where you also can study part-time next to a job, at least at associates level.

    I also believe in a modest spending behavior, so that you avoid making any kind of debts and even save money for the roughs times ahead.

    If you are already almost financially drowning, and see the MLM-opportunity as your way out, maybe you should not ignore the comments that are written here, and see that many ex-members did end up with an even worse financial mess and broken relationships.

    Like I wrote earlier, I will not try to convince you to stay away from the MLM-business. You have the freedom to make a choice. Personally, I always make a choice after weighing the pros and contras; you should at least read the policies before you make a decision, and if you do not understand them, let someone else read the papers.

    I am thinking that the MLM-business is only working for the happy few on the top of the pyramid at the cost of so many others. For me the fact that strange people were suddenly so nice to me, the fact that they avoided to give me clear answers, the fact that they in a way told nothing other than that it is a great opportunity made me very suspicious. My suspicions were confirmed after reading the information on this site. And because I did and still do not understand exactly how the financial construction works to build your own business, I concluded that it was not the way for me to make money.

    There is nothing wrong exploring possibilities, but you need to stay focused on your main goal: you want to make money in a few years to become financially independent. If you are so convinced that it is going to work for you, just should give it a try. I would advise you to keep an eye on your expenses though and set a date for yourself in the future that you want to break even or make money, and stick to it. Also I would advise you the keep an eye on your moral values; do you want to bring people in who hardly can afford the monthly payments, or are you only going to look for prospects who are able to afford it? And are you going to lie about your own financial situation to get people in?

    At the date you set for yourself to make a profit, you should at least make up the balance. I am certain that at that time you will understand the people who have written their experiences here much better.

  304. November 19, 2011 1:16 pm

    Dear CarlW

    I missed your last post

    “I still haven’t seen anyone post an answer to my original question. What have you got that works?”

    The world is a though place, and although you made some valid remarks about some of the corporate companies, it does not mean that the remarks made here about MLM businesses are wrong. Maybe you should see it as “worse” and “worst”.

    I hope I gave you a general answer. However, you cannot expect from people here to act as magicians to offer THE SOLUTION for you. I would even think of it as suspicious, If someone would offer me THE SOLUTION, I would see it as a red flag, because most of the time crooks use this strategy to rip off people.

    My advises are solid and well-meant: you need to find the solution in the business world yourself based on fact and figures; no one, other than maybe the people in the MLM-world, is going to spoon feed you.

  305. CarlW permalink
    November 19, 2011 1:53 pm

    You also mentioned about George G filing for bankruptcy once. So did Donald Trump and many other successful people in America. The thing about bankruptcy is that it teaches you what not to do next time. I personally hold a lot of respect for those that rise up from the bottom up.

    Also as far as MLMs being a pyramid scheme, well some might be. However, in my personal experience I have seen a lot of wrong doing and money made at the top by taking advantage of those at the bottom in Corporate America. I sit in many management meetings to not be sickened by the actions some of the VPs and CEOs are taking.

  306. November 19, 2011 2:52 pm

    Dear CarlW

    Like I wrote: “worse” and “worst”.

    Please, have respect for the people who have a different opinion, and do not try to even convince those (with MLM- gurus’ arguments and tactics; I have seen some YouTube videos) who have been in the system and have experienced the MLM financial reality themselves.

    You apparently have made up your mind. So, go follow your dream. You have every right to do so…but please stop being the whiner about the corporate business world on this blog…..

    PS To Whine is To complain or protest in a childish fashion.
    PS2 The bankruptcy by itself is not the issue discussed here; the problem is the pretending of these bankrupt leaders that everything is still great and fine, even when they are on a sinking ship. If the MLM-business is so great, how in heavens name could they have gone broke!

  307. Used to be "all-in" permalink
    November 19, 2011 3:50 pm

    CarlW – I sincerely feel bad for you right now…I too at one point responded to “critics” with the same logic about Corporate America. I have an extensive history in Corporate America (same as it sounds like you do), working with all levels of management in major Fortune 100 to 1000 firms. Of course there are often decisions made by top executives that I don’t agree with, from recent events with MF Global down to smaller decisions that go unnoticed by the mass media. However, just because some people make unethical decisions in Corporate America doesn’t necessarily mean the majority is also unethical. You should evaluate each company on a case by case basis. Similarily, in this discussion right now, I’m not trying to pass judgment on MLM in general, we’re talking about TEAM/LIFE specifically.

    Thus I can wholeheartedly agree that taking risks as an entrepreneur is admirable and necessary to an extent; however, there should always be degrees of acceptable risk. If someone told us there was a cliff ahead and then proceeded to describe all of the reasons you could verify that from your vantage point, hopefully risk to you wouldn’t mean continuing headlong over the cliff because you “believed” everything was fine. Where there is smoke, there is usually fire.

    In this case you have indisputable evidence of smoke all around this TEAM “opportunity”. See my points 1-6 above. I agree in some cases that bankruptcy can give someone valuable learnings, but it’s a completely different matter if that person was to proclaim how well they were doing in the opportunity from stage without disclosing that they were actually going through these proceedings as a result of their business and trying to maintain an image. Unknowing people in the crowd get excited and stay in because of the “success” they see being paraded across stage. Why not be upfront about what they went through rather than pretend everything is fantastic? I’d have more respect for them if this was the case; however, by keeping it hidden the TEAM created an environment of false recognition and deception. Donald Trump does not try to hide his bankruptcies – he’s been open about them and what his failures have taught him.

    Guzzardo to my knowledge did not file bankruptcy…he went through extensive strategic default proceedings before deciding to make his payments at the last minute. Do you not find anything unethical about someone who would consider this okay? I thought someone’s character shouldn’t go on sale for any dollar amount?

    In normal life, these things happen all of the time. However, isn’t L.I.F.E. supposed to be different? As we so readily proclaimed in the past, our product wasn’t juice, it was changed lives! The difficulty this presents is that when one or more of the leaders of the business we’re following has a moral failing it has ramifications for the rest of the community. The main problem isn’t that someone had the moral failing (necessarily), but that they tried to cover it up from the unwitting masses, which is multiple degrees worse. Just as someone wouldn’t take marriage advice from someone who’s been divorced multiple times, I’d hope you wouldn’t want to take life advice from people who find no moral problems with strategic default or have no problem mentoring others about finances when their own finances are in shambles because of the very business they are promoting. And don’t get me started on the Faith “F”. Don’t you find anything peculiar about why the pastor who spoke from a TEAM stage most likely hundreds of times no longer supports the very people he was the most outspoken fan of?

    You are free to do whatever you want. No of us can convince you otherwise as you need to make up your own mind. As an entreprenuer you have thousands of opportunities you could start / partner with. Just don’t say we didn’t warn you about running headlong into this particular fire.

  308. Vogel permalink
    November 19, 2011 4:08 pm

    CarlW: “Let me just give you this scenario, I work in corporate America and the company I work for has been sued in (sic) multiple occasions for millions and millions of dollars. So are you suggesting that people like myself who work for fortune 500 companies decline to (sic) all job offers because at one point they might have done seething (sic) that lead (sic) to a lawsuit by someone else?”

    Ever notice how the staunchest defenders of scams like Monavie/TEAM are very quick to resort to sleight of hand tricks like using irrelevant scenarios as a distraction – i.e., “don’t look at the ace of spades I’m palming in my right hand – look at the shiny bauble in my left hand”. What Carl should be talking about is the subject at hand and not what may or may not go on in corporate America.

    But I’ll bite Carl; let’s walk through your shallow, ill-conceived and poorly written scenario. The answer to your question would depend on several factors: (1) What was the hypothetical company sued for? If it was something seriously dishonest or illegal and you knew it was true, then you probably shouldn’t work for that company. (2) Was the hypothetical company unable to pay 95% or more of their? If so, then you probably shouldn’t work for that company. Those are the real scenarios with TEAM/Monavie, so obviously, people should choose to not work for the company. Lastly, bear in mind that all Fortune 500 companies are publically traded, have fairly open books, and are required to submit regular financial statements to the SEC. That’s not a guarantee of honest accounting, but it’s a far cry better than the empty black box (i.e., no financial accountability whatsoever) that people are expected to jump into when they join Monavie/TEAM.

  309. das permalink
    November 19, 2011 7:12 pm

    CarlW, the Jett’s pizza delivery boy did not try to recruit me to sell pizzas by saying I could eventually become job optional and wealthy beyond my wildest dreams. As a matter of fact, neither did the shoe salesman. And you know what? My waitress where I ate lunch today didn’t either. If the products are that good they don’t need to recruit people in an mlm pyramid scheme to con every friend and relative into your lie. The books that the Team is selling you can be found at a library for free. Or are you just to lazy to do the footwork?

    The facts are the facts, 99 people below you have to lose money for you to make money. Can you live with that? As stated here many times, anything is better than Team and their LIfE plan. Don’t quit your day job.

    But hey, don’t let me steal your dream/greed.

  310. Brent Hansen permalink
    November 19, 2011 7:28 pm

    Carl W,

    The restaurants that have a 500% markup are not telling me that I can be financially free by eating there and having my friends eat there. Nor is the place I purchase my shoes and clothes promising me an opportunity of a lifetime. Your comparisons simply do not apply to this scenario.

    As for options for those who want a way out, I have several ideas to offer you, but if you want a sincere answer it will require a phone call from me. If you are up to that, I would be glad to call you and discuss the comments on this thread further in depth. Feel free to email me any time at

  311. CarlW permalink
    November 19, 2011 8:11 pm


    You said that you found it unethical to have a leader of team speaking from stage about success and following principles while he was going through financial defaults. 1) I respect people’s private lives and I don’t bash on them because of financial problems
    2) Even if he did speak of success from stage, are you suggesting that someone in this situation should get up on stage and cry to everyone and make himself look like a victim? Is that your idea of leadership?
    For your information, money is only a small ingredient of success, did you not learn that as part of your leadership training?
    3) George seems to have come out of it just fine. I don’t think he has any money issues now, in fact I think he’s in the top 3% income earners in the US. What do you think?
    He must have done something that work and tha was very legal and ethical. He is surrounded by great influential people and he seems to have more freedom than those who did what everyone here is suggesting to do which is get a good education and work until you are old or until your big boss wants to get rid of you. Is that the grandiose plan that you are offering as an alternative?
    You still have not offered anything that works. I hope that next time you can suggest a more concrete plan.
    You seem to be well informed about the team events. So are you saying that people like Oliver Demille, Paul Zane Piltzer, Bob Burg and others who have spoken on team stage are putting their names and credibility on the line for a scam? Are you saying that you know more about what works than these book authors, economists and leaders who are not even directly involved with team?
    I was at the event when Oliver Demille spoke and I don’t recall him saying, “this is a scam, stay away”. In fact he said quite the contrary “what you do matters and we need more people who will step up to make a difference” are you also. Willing Oliver a scammer or a lier?” I also bought a CD where Paul Zane Piltzer is being interviewed by Chris and I don’t recall hearing Paul saying that this was a scam. Oh, and same for Bob Burg. So are these scammers too or would you say that they are unethical because they came to speak on a stage of what you do openly call a scam?
    If you have not sat in a meeting with corporate mangers and executives who are planning a global restructuring of a company then you would not have an opinion of what goes on in the meeting rooms of corporate America. American employees are seen as disposable liabilities and you are asked to pick the next 5 people you are going to fire in the next 30 days. Is that what you are suggestin is the ethical and moral thing to do ?

  312. CarlW permalink
    November 19, 2011 8:58 pm


    You seem to completely miss the point. You do understand that in the life business as well as in any other business profits will be made through the moving of products or don’t you? Information and education is not free, or are you saying it should be? If you are the the first places that we should look at are Universities. Don’t we see all the billboards and commercials about the great opportunities that come with getting an education from these universities? I have personally fired many people who were promised a bright future with their education and master degrees? Not because I wanted to fire them, but because I was told by executives that it was the right thing to do for the company. However, according to all of you, is the ethical and moral thing to do.
    I have yet to hear the CD or read the book that says, come join us for $100 and you will be financially free. Anyone who decides to build a business understands that it will take hard work and guts to push against the status quo. If you were told otherwise then you should take that against the person who sponsored you or whoever told you that and not make a foolish comment about people at restaurants not offering you financial freedom.
    I don’t know what kind of scams you may be trying to pull but if your ideas don’t come with hard work, personal development and leadership then you can save those for someone else. Thanks though!
    What makes you think that I would trust someone who is willing to twist my comments for the sake of trying to look smart. Would you share your number with someone like that? I think not.
    My mission with team and life is not just about $$. That’s not where my priorities are, which seems like it was for most people in this blog. My goal is to learn some great leadership principles that I can pass on to others and then who knows, things might just work out with the $$ thing.
    Why don’t you share your ideas here in this blog? What’s your track record? Why should people trust you? What’s your system? And if they are good why aren’t the people in this blog doing that instead of complaining to the masses about losing this or that? I think everyone should contact Brent for help.
    If you are so willing to help why not start with everyone here instead of taking part on negative association in this blog?
    A bit suspicious isn’t it?

  313. CarlW permalink
    November 19, 2011 9:19 pm

    @ Vogel

    Thanks for all your insight and misinterpreting my comments on corporate America. Do you even have a clue on how most big companies build their financial reports or even what actions executives take to meet the numbers? Do you even have a clue of how much these top executives get as bonuses for slashing more American jobs? If you haven’t been in the rooms where these discussions happen then I suggest you keep your opinion to yourself. Don’t do it for me, do it for those who beloved in your “just get a good job and everything will be fine’ opportunity.
    In team and life you can choose to work hard and build a team, while helping others or you can just decide to be part of it to develop skills in leadership or you can choose to sit around quit and then tell everyone in this blog that it didn’t work.
    I sure hope that you were not told that this was going to be easy, if you thought that success didn’t come with a price then you need to go read some books.
    What do you have to say to people who took over $100k on loans to get a degree and are not able to find a job and the bills keep coming. Think about that, 4-5 years or hard work, lots of $$ invested with the dream of one day landing a good job, 6 months later and still no job. Is that what your idea of “anything is better?” not to the guy or gal going through it. What about the couple whose marriage is in trouble, you think they would give a rip about investing $50 a month to continue investing in education that is already helping the as a couple. I know a couple whose marriage is better because of the system, would you like to call them and tell them that a scam has helped them. If its not for you then it’s not for you, but don’t contribute to stealing the opportunity from others who are willing to grow and participate in a bigger cause instead of complaining in this blog.
    What have you got that works?

  314. Brent Hansen permalink
    November 20, 2011 3:24 am

    Just as I suspected Carl, another person who is quick to defend, but unwilling to create a real relationship with someone who may not agree.

    I am glad that you heard all of the wonderful things you heard at the last major, from a plethora of ‘paid’ speakers who will say whatever it is they are paid to say. Did anyone from Life talk about ROI? Did anyone address the fact that the compensation plan is written with a mandatory 96% failure ratio? Are you ok with bringing people into something where 96% of them must be operating in the red at any given time?

    Did anyone discuss the fact that close to 50% of all compensation dollars are held for less than1% of all participants? Did anyone disclose what the net profit of Life is, and to whom those compensation dollars flow? Did anyone explain how and why they were forced to file bankruptcy? Was there any talk of any possible ‘cash’ deals that happened when Team came into Monavie?

    You know, I will bet you didn’t hear about any of these things that would or should be discussed at a typical business meeting. You know, I met yesterday with the CEO of a new start-up health insurance company, and we discussed each and everyone of these items of pertinence. Amazing huh, when we met for business, we actually discussed business? He didn’t bring in an author to talk to me, or a motivational speaker to get me excited about their deductible, or their coverage, he actually talked to me about the numbers.

    Just so you realize Carl, you do not own your own business with Life, you are a customer of those who own the business. And if you are ok with being a customer, and bringing in other customers, who am I to judge your intent? Just keep doing what your doing.

  315. Brent Hansen permalink
    November 20, 2011 3:42 am

    One other thing Carl, you say that me wanting to talk with you seems suspicious, yet it is you who asked what ideas or offers anyone else on her has.

    If MLM is the way you have decided to obtain your ‘way out’ or your ‘financial freedom’ , why not let someone who has been in the industry for 17 years offer you a recommendation. I actually have several companies that I would recommend to you, and could put you in touch with the CEO of said companies. If its a networking business you want, I know of one company with a 33% success ratio which is 800% better than Life, and another with a 20% success ratio which is 500% better than Life. And another company owned by a friend who actually pays out through a very unique program.

    You see, I am not just on her complaining, or being a critic as some would imply, I am offering my knowledge of the industry to help you have the best chance of success. Isn’t that what you want? You asked, and now I am offering, perhaps you are the one I should be suspicious of.

  316. humiliated permalink
    November 20, 2011 7:08 am

    CarlW, you came on here and stated this “None of you have offered a solution for people who are looking for a way out and don’t have initial large capital to invest in a conventional business”.

    You imply that you are fairly senior management in a Corporation, as such I expect that you understand the math that has been laid out for you here. TEAM/LIEF is clearly not the WAY OUT, in fact, more than 95% of the people involved will lose money.

    Then you switch gears and say ” but even if I don’t make money…I am developing leadership skills”. Really? You DO realize that most people become a part of TEAM to make money, right? You DO realize that they are being promised this as a business, not a “self help” program. So if you are not signing anyone up (because a good leader wouldn’t “lead” their friends and family into a negative cash flow situation) and are JUST listening to the cult leaders, buying all the crap they are selling then I say “have at ‘er”, spend your money any way that you want, but just don’t drag anyone else down with you.

    BTW, this blog isn’t intended to promote any other businesses or “ways out” as you so eloquently put it. This blog was designed to warn people (a “neighborhood watch” if you will) about the dangers of joining TEAM, morally, financially and ethically. Warning people about the borderline criminal activites going on in TEAM/LIEF along with other MLMS is part of our mandate to get rid of them entirely. So, in fact, we ARE the solution.

  317. Vogel permalink
    November 20, 2011 9:01 am

    CarlW: “Thanks for all your insight and misinterpreting my comments on corporate America. Do you even have a clue on how most big companies build their financial reports or even what actions executives take to meet the numbers? Do you even have a clue of how much these top executives get as bonuses for slashing more American jobs? If you haven’t been in the rooms where these discussions happen then I suggest you keep your opinion to yourself. Don’t do it for me, do it for those who beloved in your “just get a good job and everything will be fine’ opportunity.”

    Wow! You originally said that you wanted an opinion on the irrelevant moronic scenario you created about whether or not someone should consider working for a company that is facing multiple lawsuits. I gave you a perfectly reasonable answer, which is more than the question deserved, and now you’re getting irate and changing the subject to something else yet again. You asked for an opinion; I gave you one; and now you say “keep your opinion to yourself”??? You’re a joke and a blithering idiot – a living breathing red flag that serves to warn people why they should avoid TEAM like the plague.

  318. November 20, 2011 9:31 am

    Dear Vogel,

    The more people like CarlW come on this site to try to convince the world about the advantages of this MLM scam, the more obvious it becomes how irrational it is, and how they are in denial about the facts. I would even encourage them all to come here to tell more. I am learning a lot as an outsider!!

    CarlW must really get running out of new prospects, who are clearly doing the research before entering, by defending his ideas so strongly on this blog. I would not be surprised if he blames the contributors here that his business is not working at all.

    Did anyone see the poll, and the comment of a certain Nicolas Hale?It shows this blog is frequently visited by promembers (they are in the lead position). I could not resist to respond to the comment!

    @Nicolas Hale

    “Anyone who would trust the opinion of someone over the internet rather than their own doesn’t deserve success in life.”

    I agree; that is why it is important that the contributors stick to the facts so that the readers can double check the information themselves (I strongly encourage people to do the research based on facts). However, you need to apply the same strategy/reasoning for the MLM- information on and outside the web given by nice strangers who only offer an opportunity, a dream.

    “The system is all about improving yourself. Compared to other systems out there this is the lowest cost. ”

    I thought the system’s goal was to make money, to become financially independent in a few years? Or it is an institute where you learn to improve yourself, and you are the paying student/customer, or it is a business model to make money! Which of the two is it?

    “If you have the guts to sit down and defend your ideas then feel free to email me and we can arrange it.”

    Your email address is not visible.

    “But if you want to hide and proclaim your opinions without facts then so be it. Actions speak louder than words. Never trust someone who has no results.”

    I think this site shows more facts than any of the other pro-LIFE websites and blogs. Does “Never trust someone who has no results” mean that you do not trust the 96% of the people who are not able to make any money in the LIFE system, in other words the ones who do not show any healthy financial results?

  319. CarlW permalink
    November 20, 2011 1:01 pm

    @ Vogel

    So now the truth comes out. That’s the best you’ve got? Insulting in a sizzy kind of way.
    Is that how you expect to teach others about whatever truth it is that you believe? You are a joke!

    That’s exactly why team and life work. As long as there are ignorant morons who keep throwing opinions without a thing to back them up our community keeps getting stronger. Get yourself a life book for Christmas, you’ll thank me later.
    Thanks for the fun up until now!

  320. CarlW permalink
    November 20, 2011 1:18 pm

    @ me

    What makes think that anyone is trying to convince you that life/team works?
    Those who read the books and listen to the CDs know for a fact that success is a choice, unfortunately so it’s losing. You can chose to continue with the meaningless posts. This is stop a free country. Though you guys are all trying to speed up the process for that freedom to be lost.
    Oh and as far as prospects, you guys are already doing quite enough to help. Keep up the good work!
    It might surprise you but the $$ is not what drives me. It’s the cause. Why don’t you come and tell the single mom who is currently building a big team that because this wasn’t for you you have decided to go online and call it a scam. Did I mention that is on her way to become job optional? That through this she now has mentors that are working with her to help her achieve her goals in the next 6 months. That she is close to come home and be with her kids full time. Do you want to be the one telling her that she is a fool?
    Go ahead, maybe you’ve got something better for her that will help her raise her 2 kids he way she wants to raise them.
    Get your facts right. People get hurt and loose $$ everyday in everything especially if that’s what you are focused on. What matters is what you do to get back up, I guess in your case is “let me get online and tell everyone how bad I had it, poor me.” have some character and take on some responsibility. If you quit, lost or whatever, it was your fault and no one else’s.

  321. CarlW permalink
    November 20, 2011 1:34 pm

    @ Brent Hansen

    So nice of you to respond with another one of the same “look how much I think I know or look at how smart I think I am.”
    I’m glad you had a nice meeting with a CEO of a company, good for you. How exactly is that relevant to this discussion? Are u done patting yourself on the back?
    Congratulations for finding MlMs that you claim pay higher than life has. In that I would agree with you as the LIFE checks haven’t come out yet. Did you not know that? I thought you knew everything.
    At least you admitting that you do know that MLMs work. This does surprise as me as some of the followers of these page call all MLMs scams and extremely good at generalizing. Wonder if they will now question what side you are on.

  322. November 20, 2011 2:22 pm

    Dear CarlW,

    You did not read my entries correctly. I have never been involved in any MLM business, and will never be. I never ever wrote to put it in your words “how bad I had it, poor me”. Quite frankly, I am doing just fine.

    Your information is full of inconsistencies. You’re not in for the money, but for the cause. I read: CarlW is not making a buck, but he, he/she is in for the cause”. In the next sentence you write about a single mom who is “close to come home” within six months;I assume your saying this person is making a lot of money so she can afford to quit her job? Based on this I read “CarlW thinks money is important because it can give him/her financial freedom”.

    I do not want to say the single mom is a fool. Why should I? I hope for her sake that she doesn’t feel a fool herself after 6 months after finding out that she did not make a dime or worse is left with an even bigger financial mess. The math shows that only the happy few are able to make money in the system.

    Thank you for your compliment to keep up the good work. I am more than eager to comment on this weblog, that confirmed my suspicions about the MLM business. I choose to see the discrepancies, you apparently want to deny them. It is your right to choose that way.

    For you and all the other readers.

    Have a Happy Thanksgiving and enjoy your time with your precious family and real friends

  323. Brent Hansen permalink
    November 20, 2011 3:13 pm


    Your ignorance can only be outmeasured by your arrogance. I asked you 7 questions to which you offered no response. You asked several to which I offered a response, but you don’t want answers now do you? You believe you have already found the answer.

    If that is the case, why did you ask this?

    ” Answer this question: if not team/life then what works? I want answers and not whining or criticism. Whining and criticism does not help anyone. What have you got?”

    And this question to Vogel,

    “What have you got that works?”

    And this question directed to Used to Be All In,

    “I still haven’t seen anyone post an answer to my original question. What have you got that works?”

    You see, I am willing to help answer your question, not because I think I am smart, or because I am a know-it-all, but because I feel sorry for people like you. But you really don’t want an answer now do you? You throw out your questions with an insinuated challenge attached, but when someone calls your bluff, you don’t know how to deal with it.
    Now that I know that you are here to spew your rhetoric, I won’t bother offering any insight to you, just to have it spit back in my face, why cast my pearls before the swine

    And just so you know, MLM in its current state is not a viable business model for the masses. I do not acknowledge that it ‘works’ for the common person. Although it works for who it is intended to work for which are the companies and those who are positioned.

    I really do not need to see a Life check to know how well it is paying. I know the plan is written with a 21 to 1 break even ratio from the network with close to half of all compensation dollars being reserved for the top 1%, this tells me everything I need to know. I have writen compensation Carl, it doesn’t take a genius to figure it out. Apparently you think you have a way of besting the mathematics you are working against.

    Any one individual can make a ton of money in MLM as long as he is ok doing it while 95% of his team cannot break even. Understand there is a huge difference between will not and cannot. But that doesn’t matter to you now does it, because you are not involved to earn money, are you?

    Here are the questions I posted previously, would you like to address any of these, or continue to sidestep them all?

    1. Did anyone from Life talk about ROI?

    2. Did anyone address the fact that the compensation plan is written with a mandatory 96% failure ratio?

    3. Are you ok with bringing people into something where 96% of them must be operating in the red at any given time?

    4. Did anyone discuss the fact that close to 50% of all compensation dollars are held for less than1% of all participants?

    5. Did anyone disclose what the net profit of Life is, and to whom those compensation dollars flow?

    6. Did anyone explain how and why they were forced to file bankruptcy?

    7. Was there any talk of any possible ‘cash’ deals that may have occured when Team came into Monavie?

    And a few new ones.

    8. Did anyone talk about production costs?

    9. Did Life offer any transparency since you all are ‘business partners’?

    10. Did they discuss anything that remotely resembled a business meeting?

    Just keep doing what your doing Carl, we all will be cheering for your success.

  324. das permalink
    November 20, 2011 4:02 pm

    I agree, Carl doesn’t want answers. He won’t even read what has been written in this blog or answer any questions. Instead of answering questions he lashes out with childish insults. What he wants is for this blog to go away. Well guess what Carl…we will continue to be honest about the scam you are involved in and we will be right here when you decide to join us after you have lost all your friends, money, and self-respect. What you are involved in is wrong no matter how you spin it. I know, because I have been where you are and I believed the same as you. It’s awesome to be free of that mind control.

  325. CarlW permalink
    November 21, 2011 7:08 am

    @we believed

    If you don’t understand why a system is the key to keep the community and duplicate results then you never understood what you did. This is very common for people who join to try this for sometime. Nothing works when you try something, you don’t hear people who graduate with a degree and good grades say, “I was just trying that.”
    You are entitled to your opinion, not the opinion of the masses or the facts.
    By the way, I intend to answer Brent’s questions and I don’t need any reminding me and I don’t believe Brent needs anyone to help him remind people in the blog. I’m sure he is a big boy and can handle it himself.

    Why would I want to go though all the posts in this blog. I only have to read a few to know that all you are doing. The mentality of “well if I couldn’t make it work I better tell everyone else it sucks so that other people won’t make it and make me look like a looser” I understand that this is common thinking in our society so you it I am not surprised.
    Why don’t you do something positive with your life instead of complaining? Call Brent, he apparently has some ideas that might work according to him.

  326. CarlW permalink
    November 21, 2011 7:51 am


    I am really surprised that you ask these questions, I thought you were the expert and I was the new person? After all,I don’t have the 17 years of experience you claim to have.

    1. Did anyone talk about ROI? This tells me that your experience is much less than what you claim. Of course that’s a question you ask in a conventional business and corporate America. Didn’t you learn that this is a performance based business? If you do treat it as a hobby expect hobby results. If you treat it as a business then expect business results. Refer to compensation plans for details. Even I as the rookie understand it. Now I have to wonder if you had any experience with this at all.

    2. Did anyone address the fact that the compensation plan with a mandatory 96% failure ratio?
    If you didn’t know the answer to #1 then what I understand why this one would be even more difficult. Just curious what data are you using for this assumption? Didn’t you know that life was just launched in November. It’s only been in business for 20 days. You may ask this question again when the life checks go out.
    3. Are you ok with bringing people to…?
    Refer to my answer in number 2. What data are you using?
    4. Did anyone discuss the fact that 50%….?
    Is this another opinion? Are you referring to Amway or…? You need to be more clear. Again, did you not know that life has been in business for only 20 days?

    5. Did anyone disclose what the net profit of life is and to whom those dollars flow?
    Again Brent, with your experience it shocks me to see this question coming from you.
    Don’t you know that you can monitor your own business and you can see who is getting paid what? The better someone performs (bigger teams) the more they are compensated. Which brings me to my next point.. You guys keep calling it a pyramid scheme and the funny thing is that there were lawyers who signed their name in approving life as a business. Are they also scammers? I am sure that you all know the law better than lawyers. Don’t you know that someone in my team can eventually earn more than I will if he or she builds a stronger organization? How exactly is that a pyramid scheme? In a pyramid i would never earn more commission than someone who I sponsored. With all the years all of you claim to have and all the $$ you invested and you didn’t learn the basics?

    6. Did anyone explain how and why they were forced to file bankruptcy ?
    Did my neighbor come to me to explain to me why he and his family file for bankruptcy? Do you expect everyone to share their personal things with you? Did you ask the CEO that you spoke with over the weekend why he hasn’t shared more personal and private things with you?

    7. Was there any possible cash deals…?
    Is this another one of your opinions or were you at the bank when someone made the withdrawals? Or was this something that someone said in the blog?

    8. Did anyone talk about production costs?
    As a matter of fact yes. In several CDs, aren’t you on system? Look for some of the newer Team CDs that talk about the launch of life.

    9. Did life offer any transparency..?
    Again, don’t you know that you own your own business and you have complete access only to your organization?
    10. Did they discuss anything that remotely ..?
    As the owner of your business you can have as many business meetings as you want with your team. At a bigger picture you have to qualify (that means earn it, not like in corporate America where the cousin of the director can join with no effort) for directors and above calls. Didn’t you know about those? I haven’t been to any yet as I am new but my sponsor has.

    Again, with your experience I would have expected to get more valid questions. You should have known the answers to all these. Thanks for cheering for me.
    Actually I encourage all of you to keep doing what you are doing, keep putting more negative comments. We really appreciate all of your work here as it gives people a better picture of why we need to change the way we think if we are ever going to get out of this economic mess.

  327. Used to be "all-in" permalink
    November 21, 2011 7:56 am

    Carl – Your arrogance is really making me sick. How do you define “making it work”? A number of people on here did seminars (including webelieved, who you’re bashing for not making it work), built groups with thousands of people in them, and had CD’s come down on system, including some which were in the Top 50 (the best 50 CD’s of all time according to the PC). How can you say he or others on here don’t have the facts? They aren’t your next door neighbor or family member who has no idea what the TEAM does or has done. What makes you think you have the facts and they don’t? Are you a round table? Did you defend Orrin and company in court during the lawsuits with Quixtar? Do you work in the TEAM office? How many years have you “mentored” directly with Orrin, Chris and Tim in their living rooms? Apparently you think the whistle blowers on this blog are either a) dillusional and don’t know what they’re talking about or b) should just be silent and let all of the wrongs continue unmitigated.

    I think I’ve given you enough proof that a) isn’t correct, and as to b), just ask the athletic director and president of Penn State how that one worked out. And Joe Paterno got fired not because he didn’t tell anyone, but because people didn’t think he did enough.

    I truly feel bad for you, because you just repeating the same “negative critic” junk that is taught from stage. Many of us were also brainwashed into thinking the same things at one time.

  328. humiliated permalink
    November 21, 2011 7:58 am

    You are absolutely right we believed. I think CarlW has an agenda here and we need to stop engaging with him. He hasn’t answered a single question, is clearly not here to learn anything and is getting increasingly rude and antagonistic (btw if you are going to call us “loosers” please spell it properly…we are “losers”).

    Fellow losers I say we bid CarlW adieu.

  329. CarlW permalink
    November 21, 2011 8:01 am


    I have never been involved with Quixtar/Amway so I can’t comment to that. If that’s where your experience. And from then you will have to take your comments to someone who was part of that. You ask about where the FTC is in all this. They are probably too busy shutting down illegal operations within corporate America and privately owned conventional business to waste time on something that got approved by lawyers as a legit business. Are you also suggesting that the lawyers who approved and were involved in the the structure of the life business are scammers? What does that say about our law programs? Don’t you think these lawyers got their degrees from an accredited university who teaches what you and everyone else suggested it’s way better than life?
    So according to you, team/life the layers and whoever from the state that approved this is in the same scam? Seems like you might want to start a whole new blog on it.

  330. littledufflebagboy permalink
    November 21, 2011 8:16 am

    carlw is a idiot. try reading the blog and see that there were big leaders with their groups stolen. u sound like a cd get off system for a couple weeks to clear ur head from the garbage in it. sorry for being negative 🙂 lol

  331. CarlW permalink
    November 21, 2011 10:01 am


    Wow… That’s all? You have nothing to say so now you resort to calling me an idiot? Classy!

    I guess we can’t expect much from someone who uses littleduffleboy as a name. Why don’t you go back to play video games? How old are you, 13?

  332. CarlW permalink
    November 21, 2011 10:06 am


    I am sorry that you feel that way. You seem very upset and frustrated, and it seems to me that it’s not even about team or life. I would encourage to seek for some good and positive association and listen to some good audios and read some good books.
    Have a great ThanksgivIng everyone.

  333. littledufflebagboy permalink
    November 21, 2011 11:26 am

    wow that almost hurt maybe I should shut the games off get my list out, make some calls. tell everyone Im a life coach and tell them how to live their life cause obviously up to this point they have been screwing it up. I’m off work time to have a negative bev with a real friend and not sit there the whole thinking bout showing the plan or contacting people lol

  334. November 21, 2011 11:47 am

    @webelieved – excellent comment. I have turned it into a post on my website:

  335. littledufflebagboy permalink
    November 21, 2011 11:53 am

    its from lil wayne, u know that negative music out there. i forgot if i get sick of listening to team cds to throw in team cuts instead lol. but lil waynes bad he says bad language and smokes pot. i dont smoke pot havent in a few years but u know who i always thought was a stoner was george and jill. lol everytime i heard them on cd or a major im like these two are baked lol.

  336. CarlW permalink
    November 21, 2011 12:27 pm


    It’s ok to vent. We all need it sometime. You said you feel so free that you sound so trapped. No one forces anyone to do anything, we all have a choice. You had yours and I have mine. Except I don’t recall telling anyone that they are being brain washed but you do and you say you are do free. Do you even read what you write? I feel so bad for you.
    While my sponsor may recommend for me to listen to so many CDs a day, I ultimately choose what I do with my time. So far so good.
    I love the information. The fact is that not many can handle the truth and they’d rather stick their head in the sand.
    Now you are saying that I should get some help. Have you read your last posts? You don’t have to worry about me, we are doing quite well. I have a lovely wife and beautiful kids who we both adore. Now thanks to Life we have tools that we can use to help us be better parents and spouses.
    I have not read one bad book or listened to a bad CD so whatever you think it is that we do you need to get more information before you post anything again.
    My wife is all on board and has loved all the info. She loves the AGO CDs also, they are great. Did you know that some of the PCs have preached sermons? Isn’t that great? Are you also going to say that he sermons are also scams? That they are trying to brainwash us.. Uuh, yeah! Don’t you think that America has already been brainwashed enough way before team?
    I’m glad you have all the time for yourself and are enjoying yourself doing what you like and what only benefits you and what you want and what you, you, you…. You obviously did not learn a thing from system. It’s was never about you!! – how could you make it with a selfish attitude?
    You sound like the typical American, me, me, me, me… I want it for me and what I like and what I want and don’t mess with me….. I know kids that understand more leadership than what you are displaying here.
    If you’d like I can ask my sponsor what books he can recommend for you. Let me know.

    I’m happy to tell you that we spoke to a business owner last night who loves the LLR pack and became a customer. He already has a well established business and loves the idea of developing his employees to grow in leadership and he doesn’t mind investig in his employees that way. Isn’t that great?
    See, not everyone thinks so negative like you do.

  337. November 21, 2011 12:58 pm

    @webelieved – Another great comment. I created a dedicated LIFE TEAM Primer page on this site.

  338. das permalink
    November 21, 2011 2:05 pm

    Well Carl, since you refuse to read this blog to understand where we are coming from I will skip reading any and all of your posts since they pretty much say nothing but the TEAM cult rhetoric. Like I said, all the little things that don’t seem quite right with the TEAM will wake you up and snap you out of the mind control that is so deeply embedded in your thinking right now. We will still be here spreading the truth. One of these days maybe you will be as blessed as I am today to be free from Orrin and the Team.

  339. switch permalink
    November 21, 2011 2:24 pm

    Carl says-
    “I have never been involved with Quixtar/Amway so I can’t comment to that. If that’s where your experience. And from then you will have to take your comments to someone who was part of that.”

    So in other words folks, Carl here, wants all of us to address this problem with his OWN and CURRENT upline.

    Start from the truthful beginning Carl….If the newbie is looking to join your group, he/she has the right to know the truth on EVERYONE’S journey he/she wishes.

    3 weeks into the “life biz”, carl……it’s not too hard to figure out. So, tell us how they got there.

  340. das permalink
    November 21, 2011 2:41 pm

    Hey Switch, I caught that too. He is probably a TEAM 2 or maybe even a TEAM 4 at seminars (if he conned a couple of his kids to get in the biz). That’s quite the experience compared to the ex-TEAM triple 100’s that are posting here and actually know the shysters Orrin and Chris personally. lmao

  341. November 21, 2011 2:49 pm

    He Das, Switch. I lost you guys. What do you exactly mean (TEAM 2 or TEAM4)? That Carl is somewhere high in the pyramid?

  342. CarlW permalink
    November 21, 2011 3:08 pm


    Thank your insight. However I wasn’t plannin on coming back to this site. Don’t need backwards thinking influencing me.
    Anyway, just came back to respond.

    You know, sometimes there are people who hold companies from growing faster. Might not seem obvious at first but there are times when people with no vision and dream affect organizations.

    Could it be that Team got the best of it ?

  343. das permalink
    November 21, 2011 3:24 pm

    Yes, the Team got my best, or the “best of” me as you put it. That is until God opened my eyes to the truth. Not only do people hold companies back from growing, but you should see what they do to a church. I have seen this first hand what Team can do to a church.

    We’ll leave the light on for you Carl and welcome you home when you see the truth!

  344. das permalink
    November 21, 2011 3:31 pm

    What I mean by Team 2 or Team 4 at a seminar is how many people bought tickets that are in your downline. If there are six people in your downline at a seminar and your wife and you attend, then you would be Team 8.

    There are people posting here that had 3 teams with 100 or more people in each leg at a seminar, and they were called triple 100’s.

  345. das permalink
    November 21, 2011 3:38 pm

    My point is that I would think a triple 100 would have a better insight to the Team than a person with Carl’s experience who wasn’t even around when these leaders had those teams stolen from them and given away with a simple click of a mouse.

  346. Brent Hansen permalink
    November 21, 2011 3:53 pm


    Excellent comments, I appreciate what you stand for, and I feel that same obligation. I probably couldn’t interest Carl in the $1000 challenge could I? If I offer I am sure he will run off at the mouth about how Life hasn’t paid checks yet.

    Come back in 6 months Carl and lets reevaluate the situation. Good luck!

  347. Grover Lembeck permalink
    November 21, 2011 5:13 pm

    I have yet to hear any cd’s, from any of these groups, contain information. All of it is rah-rah fast food- it tastes ok if you’re into that sort of thing, but has no nutritional value.

    I have really enjoyed your posts, and how they have evolved over the course of the last few days, CarlW. It is unfortunate that they smell so strongly of dishonesty, but I suppose that it’s also inevitable.

    You want an alternative to the LIFE scam? If you mean something for lazy people who want to retire in 2-5 years, I hate to break it to you, it doesn’t exist. If you mean a way to make a living without having to answer to a boss, there are plenty of small businesses that have very low startup costs, and plenty of ways to bootstrap. Your failure of imagination does not make LIFE any less of a scam.

    Try actually producing something. Manufacturing anything would do far more for this country than selling each other poorly produced CD’s ever will. Local distribution systems are generally very well established, and these days you can market worldwide over the internet for literally a song (A friend of mine got a webpage set up plus a year of hosting in exchange for singing at a wedding. OK, so it was actually a whole set of songs.) There’s shops of all kinds (wood, metal, etc.) that you can join or rent time in, and used equipment is very cheap, if you’re willing to hunt around some.

    As for learning leadership, I always head the other way when I hear people use that term. People who are leaders don’t actually focus on learning leadership, they “learn” it the same way they learned how to walk, by just doing it. Leaders are the people who are willing to step up and try and take care of things. If I try and imagine a real leader like Sir Winston Churchill listening to one of those CD’s…well, I just can’t do it without imagining him laughing his ass off at the same time.

  348. switch permalink
    November 21, 2011 7:16 pm

    Due to your answer, Carl….I see nothing has changed.

    Still waiting for your answer…….or is it the classic crickets chirping again?

  349. Brent Hansen permalink
    November 22, 2011 4:47 am

    Grover your a genius! Maybe some of your common sense can rub off on Carl?

  350. finally permalink
    November 22, 2011 9:22 am

    Maybe Carl will share his profit sharing check with us to prove everyone on here wrong. That would certainly go a long way towards some credibility for him. He is a plant, for sure. He is trying to show how he is not like us, better you might say. If that is true then why does he not use his real name? I mean he is involved in Life now and that surely qualifies as a better than the rest type person…………….or maybe not Oh wait, they have only been in business for a couple weeks…………doesn’t really matter though the leaders already have their teams, they should just produce a check and shut us all up…… least on that note anyhow.

  351. Moonlight73 permalink
    November 22, 2011 11:26 am


    My brother invited me to a life meeting tonight. I am pretty skeptical but I told him I would come to check it out. I have been invited to other network meetings so far an none of them seemed attractive. He tells me life is different so we’ll see.

  352. November 22, 2011 1:01 pm

    @Moonlight73 – Your comments were coming from the same IP address as @carlw. If you are indeed carlw, stop with the charade of posing as a first-time commenter.

  353. November 22, 2011 1:06 pm

    Way to go Carlw. Genius pure genius.

  354. switch permalink
    November 22, 2011 1:22 pm

    ROFL!!!! Go crawl back to your juice cave, carl!

  355. Speak Your Truth permalink
    November 22, 2011 1:41 pm

    Carl is a classic example of how the ‘system, upline, and indoctrination works. He is someone who is battling internally with conflicting beliefs and what he intuitively knows is true; that his real beliefs and those he has been convinced to belief are the true battle ..….”cognative dissonance.” He hopes the fairytale and the walk down the yellow brick road, comes true. He just needs to rip down the wizard’s are fakes who continue to get him to conform; and the truth will set him free.

    If He would read his own posts he might be able to see he is someone who is trying to ‘convince’ himself against his own will, not us. If he would ‘shut out’ the constant belief system, recognize the double messages and standards, and downright in your face facts.. and use some common sense, look at the information on this blog of the bankruptcies, default, P&P, contract and the actual comp plan and analysis..THINK for himself and face reality… He would find out real quickly he is only fooling himself.

    He can read every liefer’s comments who comes on as a rabid irrational defender and see that his comments are close to identical to all the others and then know what others see.
    What he doesn’t realize is the root problem is who he has let con him and can’t see the big picture. The battle is within himself and not with us; and has bought into the (cult) controlled information, has created’ the us vs them, mentality.’ One other thing he doesn’t realize is we have already been there and done that and know went through the same.

    If it is his intent to try and ‘convince’ anyone here… he has come to the wrong blog, has taken on an impossible task and should find a life propaganda site to spread his fantasy somewhere else. No one is buying it here… this should be blatantly obvious to him. If his goal is too ‘convince’ anyone else (prospects) he is failing at that too.

    He only needs to ‘read’ and’ learn’…take the blinders off, learn from ‘me’ and other ‘outsiders’ comments but he is not rational enough and just spews out the ‘cd’ rhetoric. The same garbage they have been spewing for almost 2 decades. (How to handle objections). Be positive (no negative, although he sounds real negative) tell everyone how great the system is, how smart and arrogant he is and everyone else doesn’t know what they are talking about and how it is has ‘changed’ his life for the better.

    It is obvious to me he is the one frustrated , angry, and even ‘hating’ but then this is ‘classic’ of the liefers/ cult indoctrination and the life belief ‘system’ that controls everyone.
    It really sucks to be in the turmoil he is in, and yet he calls it ‘all good’, ignoring every fact, covering his eyes and ears, just to continue to convince himself…too sad. The ‘system’ is working fine for him as long as he doesn’t question and keeps denying and stuffing the truth down.

    Someday when he stops ignoring the truth, the phantom ‘business opportunity’ that ‘everyone makes it’.. who follows the ‘system’, too good to be true dream, riches, and wealth beyond your wildest dreams, figures out he is lying to everyone he brings in, because 99% will not make any will be more than a wake-up call..for him.

    7 or 8 families have convinced him out of tens if not hundreds of thousands…he will have the lifestyle of the rich and infamous, become a better person, more Godly, learn leadership, noble cause etc…but the truth of the matter is he has learned to ignore the truth, deceive others and hold to it no matter how the facts are laid out or obvious they are, or how many people he has to lie gain a few bucks (not profit) and them loose money; for him to in the end, find out he was used and in turn became a user and has been duped.

    Hopefully, he will face reality soon before he is bankrupt, in foreclosure, spent his entire 401k, life savings, devastated his families and children’s future savings for college or whatever, cheated them out of real time with them, destroyed his true relationships, and friendships, questions his faith because he it was betrayed and it used against him.
    And now he is a poser…how sad…and what’s the point, Carl..moonlight73? You have just validated all the points on here, and how low you will stoop to keep the lie alive. Shameful.

  356. November 22, 2011 2:15 pm

    Can anyone explain what Brady would have meant with the following citation (posted by himself on Twitter a few hours ago)?

    RascalTweets Chris Brady
    The greatest fraud I have ever known is myself -Oswald Chambers

    Thought this tweet was kind of funny after reading all the posts here to see he himself writing that he is a fraud 🙂

  357. Moonlight73 permalink
    November 22, 2011 3:45 pm

    Carl is my brother you morons and he was the one inviting me to the meeting tonight. I got suspicious because he is so excited about his life thing. I guess I should have known better than to come here.
    Thanks for your help you bunch of morons, maybe I’ll be better off at the meeting. At least they are not insulting like all of you. You must be very proud of yourselves.
    My brother told me all about you and that’s why I added a posting to find out for myself. Well, I just did.

  358. Vogel permalink
    November 22, 2011 4:10 pm

    Oh man! Give it up Carl/Moonlight. You were trolling and got caught red-handed like a child with their hand in the cookie jar, and your incredibly lame infantile excuse reminds me exactly of what a child would say in that situation. Carl’s brother??? Puh-lease!

    I can see where you were heading in your last troll-post though — trying to get people to buy tickets for the next big event. Pfft! I can read you like a book (a comic book, that is).


  359. Vogel permalink
    November 22, 2011 4:26 pm

    Admirable gesture but I’m guessing that Carl’s sociopathy runs in the family. Har!

  360. Speak Your Truth permalink
    November 22, 2011 4:48 pm


    You say; “you morons”…”you bunch of morons”…”I’ll be better off at the meeting. At least they are not insulting like all of you”

    Do you see the hypocrisy in your statements?

    Are you twin brothers or lying? One should know about us here, we have honed the skills and can’t be fooled by the games and some just see through the bs naturally…. we have spent many years in the univeristy for fraudsters, deceivers and cons, where they count on there being a sucker born every minute.

    If they give you “How to Win Friends And Influence People” along with “Attitude Is Everything”…avoiding you and answering all your questions with cd’s; it would be a clue…. and will be the standard of process for your Don’t worry everyone is manipulated with the same basic approach and you will learn the same manipulation techniques. Have fun but once you sign the P&P, you are no longer allowed on this site. You have a choleric personality, which means you will have a lot of ‘submitting’ to do and will give your upline a lot of

    Btw~ We aren’t here for you, we are here for those who will have the unforunate event to be contacted by you.

  361. No Team For Me permalink
    November 22, 2011 5:12 pm

    Speak – I noticed the same hypocrisy. For moonlight to be calling everyone morons and then have the gall to say everyone on here is insulting. I’ve never seen such a group of narccisists.

    Even though we all know moonlight and carl are the same person and probably has been a member of team for awhile, what an odd excuse to claim it is carl’s brother. why would moonlight need to use his brother’s computer? Do they both still live with their parent’s? How old are they?

  362. No Team For Me permalink
    November 22, 2011 5:15 pm

    How long has Carl been in? He’s that gungho and still has not shown his brother that lives with him? Hmmmm

  363. Speak Your Truth permalink
    November 22, 2011 5:57 pm

    No team for me~

    Highly unlikely….lol.. I do have to admit..Carl=Moonlight will struggle big time with getting anyone to stick, with the already horrendously, atrocious, attrition rate… the guaranteed designed failure rates that are stacked against him, along with the bad attitude and integrity issues… will be a bitter tonic and that he will struggle with for a long time and will probably outlive his patience and funds.

    No wonder the poor guy is frustrated. I have a hunch it will take him numerous majors, and cds, along with ‘rotating’ the top 50 and top 5 books every 5 weeks to get past turbo 2 (he and his other identical personality) that will probably take him a year to reach, unless of course he happens to fall into the right ‘spot’ where his upline will put someone in quick to get past him. So, I am not too concerned with him creating more victims of the scam anytime too soon. 🙂

  364. das permalink
    November 22, 2011 6:38 pm

    Oh my, this would be funny if it wasn’t so pathetic Carl. Will you be my life coach? I have never been a good liar…one of the main reasons I left Team and the master of deception, Orrin Woodward.

  365. Speak Your Truth permalink
    November 22, 2011 7:24 pm

    Very interesting Carl=Moonlight, Rascal=Works like a Charm, which Amthrax has called them out on… and Orrin=Qrush… does anyone else see a pattern?

  366. Brent Hansen permalink
    November 22, 2011 9:45 pm

    Hahahaha….I was sleepy til I read this. Carl/Moonlight, still waiting for you to answer the 10 questions big guy. Do I need to repeat them again?

    How about a few new ones.

    1. If Orrin really cares about creating an opportunity for the masses, taking the message to one million people, helping the little guy have a chance, why is the plan written with the lionshare of compensation dollars going to less than 1% of all members?

    2. What really happened to Team West when Legacy and Team combined?

    3. Was Team paying tool money to those at the Platinum level?

    You see Carl/Moonlight, when you are getting in business with people, you should ask about their track record. Maybe talk to some of their partners from years past, and previous ventures.

  367. Brent Hansen permalink
    November 22, 2011 9:49 pm

    Oh yeah Carl one more question. I met tonight with two people who know the PC on a very, very intimate level. I was point blank told that Orrin, Chris and Tim have somewhere around 200 companies listed in their names, with the majority of them being in Nevada. My question is this.

    Why in the HELL would you need 200 companies? Anyone anyone? Please answer this question Carl.

  368. Speak Your Truth permalink
    November 23, 2011 6:48 am


    Excellent questions especially on the 200 companies. Now why would that be when the LIEf program…is the end all to be all for everyone else? They taught…”This is the last thing you will ever have to get good at”…You can’t serve 2 masters? You are suppose to put all your eggs in the LIEf basket…Why do you suppose they keep this information from the masses…lol…Perhaps, just a minor oversight in the (F)inance category and more truthful it is.. just another double standard. 🙂 There are only 2 classes in the LIEf program…The Rich…and those who start out in the Middle class but end up in poverty.

  369. Speak Your Truth permalink
    November 23, 2011 7:05 am

    I should clarify the “Rich” … that would be the top 3 people (mercenaries) out of multiply tens of thousands…the rest (missionaries) would be continually driven.. to the bottom poverty class.

  370. switch permalink
    November 23, 2011 7:42 am

    I can tell you one thing here, Carl/moonlight….. you’ve stepped into the wrong yard.

    It would be another story if you introduced yourself as “Carl’s sibling” and working from the same location.

    But instead, you decide to tell us all how dumb/stupid we are? Really…..?

  371. November 23, 2011 7:58 am

    ” Why in the HELL would you need 200 companies? Anyone anyone?”

    Maybe to spread their risks or to avoid paying tax or to avoid taking responsibility in case one of the companies gets sued or to just avoid the law.

    I know an example where it is clear that a legal company avoids the law by using another legal entity. European Law protect customers against sales pressure by forbidding a company to accept/take money during the sale of the product. Still companies force you to pay with the credit card during the high pressure sale. However, because the payment is going to another company, the company is legally not wrong, and cannot be sued by the costumers.

  372. November 23, 2011 8:20 am

    Spread their risks

    In Europe: the holding structure

    As an owner you can put your assets (everything of value) in one “value” company, and your employees in another “work” company. From the outside it looks as if it is one company. If the “work” company files for bankruptcy, and there is no reason to suspect that the owner filed for bankruptcy deliberately, the owner looses only his work and employees, but is able to keep his assets. The owner is able to make a restart.

    I am not sure if such a construction is possible in the US.

  373. Moonlight73 permalink
    November 23, 2011 1:08 pm

    How old am I ? If you must know I am 20 years old and my brother took me in after my parents lost their home to the economy. Want to criticize that also?
    My brother was right, you guys don’t know a darn thing about anything. You spend your time and energy criticizing and blaming other people for your lazziness.
    It was my mistake to come to this blog, but I am happy to tell you that I am done here.
    And in case you were wondering, the environment At the meeting last night was
    Much better than having to seat hear and read any of your loosers’ stories.
    Oh and by the way, nice story… “My friend who is friend with the PC said they have 200 companies”… Get a life and mind your own business. Nobody will ever take you seriously if you have no proof.
    Until never.
    Rachel – aka Moonlight

  374. Brent Hansen permalink
    November 23, 2011 2:27 pm

    Me, Switch, Speak Your Truth, Webelieved, das, NTFM and Vogel,

    Have you all been telling ‘looser’ stories again?

    Rachel aka Moonlight aka Carl aka whatever else…have you ever heard of a shell company or corporation? You are a big shot in the corporate world aren’t you? Study up on it and then lets return to the 200 company topic.

    Company B can bill company A for services rendered and funnel income from A to B. Company B can pay company C for contract work, professional services etc. etc. and then move money from company B to company C. Soon all the money is gone, and all of the companies have zero income. Zero income equals zero taxes. It is not illegal but it would indicate a massive cash flow and the need to hide it to avoid paying taxes.

    Question: Are they teaching this strategy from the Life stage?

    By the way Rachel 35 companies have been verified.

  375. 1MillionLIfES permalink
    November 23, 2011 2:36 pm

    Moonlight73/Rachel/Carl – it is actually fairly easy to verify this. I looked at two states only and found 49 companies. Some are active some aren’t.

    Nevada Business Search:
    Florida Business Search:

    DPST = Director, President, Secretary, and Treasurer

  376. Brent Hansen permalink
    November 23, 2011 3:07 pm


    Thank you.

  377. das permalink
    November 23, 2011 3:21 pm

    Yes, I have been telling “looser” stories again, I’m sorry. I just can’t help myself. 🙂

    Speaking of which, check out this guy’s story. It’s exactly what happened to me, except I lost more money. The relationships that were lost is what hurt the most, just as it did this guy. There are 4 pages to his story.

  378. Brent Hansen permalink
    November 23, 2011 3:34 pm


    Great link, this quote summarizes the entire article and the entire problem. The same problem I addressed with Kevin Thompson, and the problem I continue to address every day. This quote tells Carl exactly the questions he should be asking. Transparency would educate people, and then let them base their decisions on truth. If they know the deal, and still choose to get involved, then it is their choice.

    “Any legitimate business that asks you to invest money will fully disclose any financial information to its investors-no business will ask one to have some faith they will pay out.”

  379. November 23, 2011 4:29 pm

    Have you all been telling ‘looser’ stories again? No

    I think not one of my entries is based on a “looser” story. In fact everyone you mentioned (You, Switch, Speak Your Truth, Webelieved, das, NTFM and Vogeland maybe others) are telling WINNER stories and in my opinion you are THE winners; you all conquered a sly, vicious snake who took advantage of normal human characteristics.

    I never believed in the presence of “evil” which in Christian beliefs has different names, but I am really admiring the fact you guys were able to escape from this presence!

    BTW I love seeing the actor in the video’s Das referred to. He really shows the same fake smile as Orrin has on his videos and presentation. Why doesn’t anyone notice that!

  380. Speak Your Truth permalink
    November 23, 2011 4:30 pm


    Your comments (11/21 2:15 pm), very interesting. I doubt he would be sending the message about himself. They have 2 reasons they send and copy so many quotes. 1) It is a message they want the flock to believe that justify and plays right into their game. 2) More often we see them sending messages against the ‘critics’ which is also for the flock to buy into and jump on the bandwagon. Either way you slice it the majority of messages are to manipulate.

  381. November 23, 2011 4:39 pm


    But don’t you think it is funny? Every comedy show would have taken the chance for such a “slip of the tongue” to put the person in the center of “well-deserved” attention.

  382. November 23, 2011 5:21 pm

    @1MillionLIfES – Good researching this. I’ve created a dedicated post where we can list and discuss the many companies of Orrin Woodward, Chris Brady and Tim Marks.

  383. Speak Your Truth permalink
    November 23, 2011 7:13 pm


    High Five! Could be another Freudian Slip too…lol

  384. November 23, 2011 7:52 pm


    I know Brent is on “our” site, the right site, the winner’s site,:)

  385. former ibo permalink
    December 14, 2011 3:28 pm

    I stumbled upon this because I was wondering what ever happened to Team. I was an ibo from 2004-2006. At the time I was 21 and in college pursuing a bachelors. A friend got in and showed me the plan and I thought what the heck I’ll do it. It did not help that at the time this person could easily influence me because he came from a very successful family and seemed to be very sharp so I wanted to associate with him. After getting in I realized I needed to do the full system. This encompassed cds of the week, books, seminars, open etc. I decided if I was going to do it I better go all in on it. Thus, that is what I did. I sponsored individuals on the taproot as you are taught and started my second leg. Through these first couple months I could never get a solid answer as to how do I make money?? I simply wanted to know. At first I thought that is what the cds and books were for. They were all for peoples stories and motivational talks, not the business nuts and bolts. I just wanted to know what do I have to do to make money at this. After a few months I finally realized that the “tools” were partial income sources for the upline leaders. At first this upset me because I felt it should have been involved with the business introduction. Then I realized why all they talked about was getting people to the functions and getting them on system. I do not know if my case is common nor do I have a problem with where the money comes from I simply wanted to know and never felt like they could provide a solid answer. I just did not know how I could earn money if I didn’t understand how it was distributed. All that was talked about over and over was go to the open, go the seminar. After months of this monotony I was burnt out with it. This is the interesting part, I really felt like the system was not helping me earn money, only costing me money and I wanted to get off system. I contacted my upline and informed him of my decision. I learned that is a big Team no-no. I actually did not want to quit altogether but did not see the point of system. I had listened to the top 50, read every book, listened to every system cd over and over and it did not benefit me personally. Anyhow after my decision to get off system I was pretty much on my own. Because I did not listen to the full system I was basically left on my own and quit pursuing the team business shortly there after. After reflecting on my personal story it is interesting to read so many similar situations. I know I do not know all the details but the part always wondered was they always talked about getting free and job optional but all they seem to do is this business much more than 40 hours/week even at the high levels and sometimes into the early morning hours, that always made me wonder. I hope the Team has helped some people, fiscally or otherwise, because I do not look back and hope that they all failed.

  386. RLambert permalink
    December 23, 2011 9:33 pm

    Woah… you guys need to learn how to research for information. I read the posts here and with what I have seen in LIFE and with the commissions from November, people have to be crazy to not be part of the organization and build it.

    Interestingly enough, I see only a handful of you that are posting all this nonsense comments but the LIFE team I joined has grown by at least 20 people in the last 4 weeks! How can you all explain that ? Why is it that LIFE is growing faster than those against it…is it because LIFE is teaching truth and you are only sharing opinions ?

    Seriously, that’s too bad that you all quit too soon and went all negative about it, but I am not surprised, that’s what people do, people quit everything…one thing I see with this team is that they are not quitting this.

    I have never seen leadership at the level that I have seen in LIFE. In fact, I met couples in these last 3 weeks whose relationships and finances are much better than when they started. How can you all deny that?
    The books that have come out through the LIFE packages have been nothing less than exceptional and the audios have priceless information that EVERYONE should be listening to.
    LIFE works!! ……..You can’t tell me that it doesn’t when I am seeing the changes in my relationships, in my family and with applying these same principles at work. Even peer managers of the Fortune 500 company I work for are asking me about where I got these books from and how they can get a copy themselves.

    Now, you all claim to have been in TEAM at some high levels, etc.. if that’s so, then who are you? Why are you all hiding behind some phony aliases. Didn’t you guys learn anything about character? I am assuming that if you all reached the levels you say you reached you must have read some books and learned a thing or two on having character. Character isn’t just having integrity, but also having courage – or did you all forget that ?

    How can anyone take you guys seriously?

    LIFE isn’t for everyone, not everyone is cut out for it, just like not everyone is cut out to be in a leadership position or even a management position. The beauty of this is that we don’t need everyone, just those who have the heart and the courage to make a difference.

  387. brent hansen permalink
    December 24, 2011 7:05 am


    I am glad that you find value in the Life product, and hope that will somehow ease the pain suffered from the financial losses of those in your group. Some people will buy purple juice, laundry detergent and vitamins regardless of whether or not there is a business attached, and I have no problem with that, more power to all of you.

    The problem exists in the promotion of a business model that mathematically requires 96% of those promoting the product as a business to fail. Can you provide evidence that would suggest that many can be profitable with Life? The problem with many people is they do not understand the difference between statistics and mathematics, do you?

    And quit to soon? What would you determine is too soon? Is 5 years too soon, how about 10 or 15 years, is that too soon?

    You wrote: ‘ I met couples in these last 3 weeks whose relationships and finances are much better than when they started.’
    That must be some sort of a miracle to see relationships and finances much better in a short two month time frame, what do you think?

    If you care to expound on the ‘truth’ Life is teaching, I am sure many on this blog would love to learn about it. What ‘truth’ has Life taught you? It is interesting how you call the opinion and perspective of the supposed Life leaders ‘truth’ but the truth here on this blog ‘opinion’. What is truth? Where does truth come from? Is it true that 96% of those in Life cannot pay for their monthly subscription, or is that opinion? Is it true that many of the top-echelon leaders have disappeared from Team/Life, and many others have filed bankruptcy? Maybe the court documents are mere opinion huh?

    Is the Salt Lake Tribune article stating that Orrin got a 3 million dollar ‘loan’ to bridge his team into MV just an opinion?

    See RLambert, there is way more truth here than your simple mind can dare digest, keep drinking the koolaid and you will find out what will happen. Better yet, email me directly at, I am hot hiding from you or anyone else. Nothing would make me happier than to be able to share the TRUTH with you.

    Merry Christmas!

  388. No Team For Me permalink
    December 24, 2011 7:54 am

    RLambert – you seem to imply that LIFE is good and legitmate simply because you have seen growth in 4 weeks and that people have told you of the changes i their relationships & finances over the last 3 weeks.

    Just because something has growth does not mean it is good. The Nazi movement had great growth with Hitler. Jim Jones had great growth with his cult. Stalin had great momentum.

    The measurement of whether something is good or not should not just be growth.

    And you hardly know these people well enough to know what their true picture looks like. Many of us were high level leaders in Team/life. We saw these people behind the scenes. We saw the ‘fake it until you make it’ attitude everyone was supposed to have.

    Character? Integrity? Is Orrin’s $3million personal bonus which was not disclosed to the masses integrity? Is stealing the groups of former leaders’ integrity? Is filing bankruptcy while still being on stage talking about how great life is integrity? Is lying about what really happened with amway/Quixtar integrity? Is lying and/or hiding the fact that you lost a massive lawsuit integrity? Is it integrity when someone posts annonymously on the QRush site, then attempts to bash others for doing the same?

    Is it integrity when you re-arrange lines of sponsorship to meet your personal needs? Is it integrity when you parade people across stage and give the impression that those people built those levels on their own – when you know the only reason they hit those levels is because you re-arranged the groups of former leaders who left after finding out about all the lies?

    To everyone else – the more I read posts like those of R Lambert, the more convinced I am that we need to be even more aggressive with getting the truth out. Imagine if people would have spoke out about Hitler or Stalin before they had all their power? How many lives could have been saved?

    These Team/Life people are going farther and farther past the point of rational behavior.

  389. webelieved permalink
    December 24, 2011 8:17 am

    Great Posts Brent and NTFM!
    No team for me your post is so to the point, we should copy and paste it for every team supporter to read when they come here.
    They stacked the comp plan against the distributors, stole from distributors who DID the work, lied over and over and this guy wants to support them? You are right NTFM there is no rational thinking in Team land.

  390. John permalink
    December 24, 2011 8:48 am

    RLambert, In the Team-Life you have 3 tiers of people.

    The bottom tier contains the new recruit who has been sucked in by false promises by those who exaggerate the business opportunity. These people are excited that they have found the fabled gold of El Dorado. However, in 3 or 4 months most of these who have been duped will drop out when the truth hits them that this just does not work. They will be called names and shunned by those that were so excited to have them join in the first place. RLambert once a person is not willing to run and work for the upline they are dropped like a hot potato.

    The next tier is a group that has stayed loyal and faithful to the leaders even though these people are hardly making anything. (Most of them are not making anything but only sinking deeper into debt). These people stay loyal for a number of reasons.

    1. They have been brain washed to be loyal to the gurus at the top.
    2. They have invested so much time and money in this by now they don’t want to admit that they have been wrong and are chasing a fool’s dream.
    3. They have burned all other bridges and relationships and now the only friends they have left are those in the business with them.
    4. Some, even though they are racking up massinve debts (Like the so-called leaders who filed bankruptsy) are convinced that they are a part of some exclusive club that is on a misison to change the country.

    The top tier includes a small handful of leaders who are actually making significant money. Does this prove anything? No! These people are like parasites living off the suffering of those below them that are toiling like slaves to furnish those at the top their lavish life styles. How these people sleep at night God only knows.

    RLambert, the Team -Life business is not a good business model. The sooner you see that the better it is for you.

  391. brent hansen permalink
    December 24, 2011 9:42 am

    John, very well written and right on the money!

  392. das permalink
    December 24, 2011 11:24 am

    Former IBO, sorry I never noticed your post. Your story is the same as many many others who join Team. Thank you for telling your story and glad you didn’t have to waste more time and money as did most of us here.

    RLambert, welcome to the site. Please feel free to visit us again and tell your story when you have had enough of Team’s deception, which I hope will happen soon your sake.

    Brent, No Team For Me, Webelieved and John, awesome posts, all of them! Thank you.

    Merry Christmas everyone!!!

  393. RLambert permalink
    December 29, 2011 12:45 pm


    You said “ease the pain to those in your group”… Trust me, nobody is complaining. Most of them got a check this month for hardly doing a thing. If you don’t have the facts then you should not assume things.

    You said “The problem is with promoting a business where 96% are required to fail” – well I guess we better turn this country into socialism so you feel better. My family has always had some type of business and the fact that 90% of businesses fail within the first 5 years has not scared most people who have the guts to start the business and certainly did not scare us. Of course some people will fail at this, isn’t that true for everything? These are the people who decide to never apply anything they learn and sit around waiting to get paid. I guess that’s what we are teaching our generation now, be a lazy bum and still expect to get $$. Don’t tell me about 96% failure rate, my family has been in business for longer than you have know how to spell.

    You said “quit too soon, is 10 or 15 years too soon” – actually it is. My father’s business took over 25 years to get the level of success he has today and he’s been married for longer than that – are you also suggesting that people should quit everything that takes time to build whether being marriage, business, a dream…. “yeah, let’s close shop and go home”.. some leader you must be. C’mon people, have some guts!!

    I love how you insist to take things out of context to try to convince your followers that you are smarter than the average person.
    ” You took this from my previous comments ——
    You wrote: ‘ I met couples in these last 3 weeks whose relationships and finances are much better than when they started.’
    That must be some sort of a miracle to see relationships and finances much better in a short two month time frame, what do you think?—

    If you are as smart as you think you are, you should have understood that the couples have been in TEAM much longer than I have. If you want to know how long these couples have been involved then you will need to come to the open yourself and ask them yourself. I’m sure you can find an open near you and go discuss your opinions “in person” with a LIFE leader… or are you to afraid to talk to someone in person?

    See Brent, I have met many like you. Many who tell people to not dare and venture out on new things. Many who always look at the glass half empty. These same people have never come up with any good business ideas, their marriages are a wreck and finances, well let’s just say that paycheck to paycheck would be an overstatement. I personally, didn’t care if I made any $$ or not, but I love the cause. You also seem to relate success with $$, many, many would disagree with you. I have met couples who have a modest lifestyle yet are the happiest. I have shared every single audio and book with friends and family and they LOVE the information, they don’t just like it, they LOVE IT. The principles being taught in LIFE are priceless and create results IF applied. Isn’t that true for everything, people loose weight only IF they commit to eating healthier and exercising. People start saving $$ IF they commit to spend less than what they make. People grow spiritually only IF they commit to attend a church, commit to pray and to read the word. I’m sure you get the idea by now…

    Now, you keep trying to look smart by referencing an article by the Salt Lake City newspaper…so what? DO you even know how newspapers work ? Do you believe everything you read in both the newspapers and the internet? My brother studied journalism and knows the newspaper business inside out. Newspapers are interested in one thing only and that is to print whatever sales, they don’t care about TRUTH. They will print whatever makes $$ …. did you know know that? “those who do not read newspapers are uninformed and those who do are misinformed”

    Brent, what makes you think that putting your e-mail address in here and asking people to e-mail you would give you more credibility? It doesn’t.

    See Brent, you may think you’re smart and successful…and you may very well be in the eyes of some people. But that does not give you the right to crush other people’s desire to venture for things. Just because is different it doesn’t make it wrong. I’d rather follow leaders who are out there in the field making a difference, helping those who are looking, not everyone is, than follow anyone who claims to know it all and sits on a desk typing their opinions in a page which has no credibility whatsoever. Leadership shows when you take hits and get up and keep going, no matter what… so go on take more hits, that will only make whatever leaders you are after stronger and stronger. LIFE does not need me or any of you for that matter. I chose to pursue it and so did everyone in our team, they each have to choose what they want out of it and how much they will commit.

    Good luck with whatever it is that you do as for me and my team, we will continue to follow leadership being taught from those who do not hide behind a computer.

    Happy new year.

  394. December 29, 2011 1:23 pm

    @RLambert – You wrote:

    Most of them got a check this month for hardly doing a thing.


    These are the people who decide to never apply anything they learn and sit around waiting to get paid. I guess that’s what we are teaching our generation now, be a lazy bum and still expect to get $$.

    Are people in your group working hard or hardly working at all for their LIFE bonus check? Please clarify.

  395. Peachy permalink
    December 29, 2011 1:27 pm


    You have clearly shown a lack of knowledge about your business within Team. I refer you to the P&P section of the contract that you signed, and it states (I am paraphrasing) that you should not be commenting on this website. The PC has the right to remove your business from you because of your indiscretion. So RLambert, if you don’t know the simple rules of Team, please try to inform us of what you do know, and how credible you might be. I suspect what you do know is very limited, and much less than those you criticize.

  396. das permalink
    December 29, 2011 2:01 pm

    RLambert, be honest here OK? So you state “Most of them got a check this month for hardly doing a thing.”

    Getting a check and breaking even are two different things. How many of those people that got a check lost money? How much did they spend to get a check? The truth will set you free. Go ahead, be honest here. If you can’t answer for all the others, tell us how much you spend to get a check. Did you break even? I already know the answer, btw.

    He really isn’t a guru, is he?

  397. das permalink
    December 29, 2011 2:48 pm

    RLambert, you need to wake up because you will be held accountable for all those you are deceiving. Enough of the lies already. If you will go back and read the four posts after your original post, and you are still not convinced of the character of the leaders you are following, then just go away…there isn’t much hope for you.

    I too once felt about Orrin the way you do, but then I saw the underhanded way he set-up the line of sponsorship going into Monavie. You can claim that everything is a bunch of lies, that news article, all of our stories, and all of the other proof on this site, but you are only hurting yourself and those that you are trying to recruit. You need to get honest. The truth will set you free.

  398. brent hansen permalink
    December 29, 2011 2:48 pm

    @RLambert, it is obvious that you are totally infatuated with the materials you have been learning from. As a matter of fact, you sound like a cd yourself.

    Although I agree with many of your points that you make, they simply do not apply to the model you hope to earn from. Most people including yourself constantly confuse mathematics and statistics.

    Now I am sorry that it appears that I think I am smarter than most, it is truthfully quite the opposite of that. If I was so smart, I wouldn’t have spent 12 years and over $250,000 pursuing a dream that no one can have, with the exception of the select, chosen few.

    In business, as I know you understand, your success is determined by your efforts, intelligence and fortitude. In a product based pyramid scheme you can never outperform the mathematics. Many of the people on this blog were in Orrin’s upper echelon of leadership. There are round-table members on here, triple 100s, and many, many, Power players. Perhaps instead of spewing your rhetoric, you should ask what these people could possibly know that you do not yet know?

    As far as hiding behind my computer is concerned, I guess my attempt to get you to email me is to show you that I am not hiding behind anything, I am not using a pseudonym, and I am not afraid to talk to anyone. We can continue this discussion on this thread, or we can continue this in private, that is totally up to you. I am a real person, and that is my real email address, and I would be glad to share my story with you and tell you what I really know about the industry.

    As a matter of fact you have sidestepped any questions (except the newspaper one) that I asked you previously. In your previous post you said that all of this was based on ‘opinon’, but when I asked about the mathematics, the disappearing upper-echelon leaders, and the plethora of bankruptcies, you simply responded with rhetoric and cd speak.

    The interesting thing is that I can tell you are an intelligent guy, probably more so than myself, its time you put that intelligence to use before you hurt some innocent people who are not as learned as you.

  399. Arturo permalink
    December 29, 2011 2:52 pm

    RLambert, you said newspapers print whatever sales and you should have said whatever sells. If you are going to lecture people about being smart it would help if you don’t sound like a moron while doing it. All of us here think you are funny so please continue to post and I want to see if you get kicked out of team for breaking their rules. If you do you can thank us later.

    So your brother studied newspapers in school and somehow you are now an industry expert? This entire business that has been around for hundreds of years and remains in business by daily lying and creating fictional stories to sell to people and yet they have never been found out? Newsflash, when reporters lie, they get fired. Report back to us when the reporter in Salt Lake loses their job and we’ll give you a junior reporter badge.

    The people you are lecturing here were former team pc and rt members, Orrin’s close friends, and industry insiders for years and they know the real system. Your words show you are none of the above and just the type of person Orrin loves. He has you where he wants you. You don’t trust the media, newspapers, or any outside opinion. You believe 100% what he tells you. You don’t know it but you’ve set yourself up to lose years of your life and tens of thousands of dollars of your hard earned income. What you will get in return is some training that you could have received for much less from someone with better (real) results in life. Orrin will wrap his products in religion, the bible, saving the world, and whatever else will sell. It all sounds good and sadly many of us bought into it for a while as well. Many of the principles are true but LIEF as it is built and sold does not work. It is not set up for your success but his. By the way, you should look up your relative Emily Lambert from Forbes Magazine and contact her to see what she found out by doing a long investigation into Orrin and Team/LIEF. At least one member of your family has a clue. We’ll hold out hope for you.

  400. Vogel permalink
    December 29, 2011 5:27 pm

    Lambert said: “My brother studied journalism and knows the newspaper business inside out. Newspapers are interested in one thing only and that is to print whatever sales, they don’t care about TRUTH.”

    What a coincidence. My brother studied psychiatry. He says you’re F-ing nuts!

  401. Speak Your Truth permalink
    December 29, 2011 5:38 pm


    My Brother studied cults, mind control/brain washing and deprograming for 30 very successful years and he said he would love to get to know Lambert. He just has a heart to help that way! 🙂

  402. Peachy permalink
    December 29, 2011 6:05 pm

    I studied architecture for two years, and worked at a firm for four years. I became an expert and learned that you can’t build anything of any substance if you keep replacing the same pieces over and over again. This is fun. As a plumber you learn that sh!t runs down hill.

  403. Speak Your Truth permalink
    December 29, 2011 6:28 pm

    Mother Theresa was my grandma’s cousin and I know she would have prayed for Lambert and the other lieFers; I will see if I can get a special prayer request to the Pope. 🙂

  404. Vogel permalink
    December 29, 2011 6:47 pm

    Lambert’s effort was so incredibly pathetic I’d almost like to offer him a mulligan. Except this time, the rules will be that he can’t use a single metaphor; nor can he refer to the alleged expertise of his all-knowing family members; no clouding the issue with distractions about how great Tupperware is or what Robber Kiyosaki thinks about MLM; no red herrings about quitters and losers, ‘other things that are shaped like pyramids’, or the horrors of having a “J-O-B”; no allusions that your company is condoned and blessed by God himself; no ad hominem attacks, arguments from authority, or other logical fallacies.

    But without all the distractions and red herrings, what could Lambert possibly come up with? He has no relevant facts, so he if he doesn’t resort to BS, what can he do other than stand in silence with a stupid Teflon grin plastered on his face?

  405. brent hansen permalink
    December 29, 2011 7:06 pm

    @Vogel, I literally sat in my chair laughing for a minute straight. My kids came running in my office to see what was so funny. Love it, I wish my wit was as quick as yours….thanks for the chuckle, you made my week. ‘Mulligan’ hahahahohoho….funny stuff!

  406. brent hansen permalink
    December 29, 2011 7:10 pm

    Robber Kiyosaki??? hahahaha…the laughter begins again, missed that my first time. Larceny, Wormwood, Drooly and Robber…the list grows each month.

  407. das permalink
    December 29, 2011 7:21 pm

    My brother was a proctologist and he thinks Lambert needs to pull his head out of his A$$.

  408. December 29, 2011 7:35 pm

    While some of these comments about RLambert are admittedly humorous, let’s hold off a bit and give him a chance to respond to the legitimate questions posed to him.

  409. Finally permalink
    December 29, 2011 7:36 pm

    Lambert is delirious. His Dad took 25 years to get the level of success he enjoys today………Did he lose money for 25 years?? How about did he lose money for 5 years? 96% of team members are losing money year after year after year. That is not gut’s Lmbert, that is stupidity. I also know people in business and their personal net worth is more than the team generates in all of it’s business as a whole for 5 years….yes, hundreds of millions of dollars. Business is numbers, not emotional. naturally it takes time to get up and running any business. Show me the numbers of all the people that have been in team for 5+ years, I absolutely guarantee that 95+% of them have lost way more than they could ever recuperate in the next 7 years. Also explain to me how a PC member can file bankruptcy with a passive residual income business? If I buy into any franchise in America, I mean partner up with someone, like you do in team, I will have access to their books before I get into business with them. Why did team make all of the lifers sign a contract that states they cannot show anyone their tax returns related to Team?? Why isn’t Orrin open with his income, which by the way was 500, 000 to 600,000 a month from team while the rest of the team was losing 2/3 of their income? You talked a lot about guts, but you are confusing what guts really are. Orrin, Chris and Tim for that matter have failed at every other business venture they have ventured into. Why is that?? This is not my opinion but taken from their Cd’s. Listen to an old version of Brady’s 67 reasons. They are not business Guru’s, in fact they are not guru’s of any sort. They are totally incompetent at business. They have mastered lying and manipulating however. The only reason Orrin joined MV was that he got a 3 million dollar payment to bring his teams over. That is what you should have gotten out of the Salt Lake City article. He claimed to have bench marked all of the existing worthwhile MLM’s and MV was the best…Lie.

    You challenge us to talk to the leaders in person, I have. Here is a short list. Orrin, Brady, Marks, Haas, Birtles, Van Buskirk, Guzzardo, Martins, Paul’s, Darkangelo’s, Cullen’s etc…….. Mind you 3 of these leaders have filed for bankruptcy. All the people that filed for bankruptcy were edified as great student’s and financially competent while they were in bankruptcy…….Wow, that is ……well sick is what it is. Brady ran from michigan and sold his DREAM home for pennies on the dollar to Orrin……..Why??? It was his dream home, the one he would spend the rest of his days in………Lambert you are seriously misguided, it is sad. You believe you sound credible because your dad is in business………again, I know plenty of millionaire’s that own every single kind of business that the team “leader’s” have not been able to make money with. They are a joke in a best case. The truth is they are liar’s, manipulator’s and at this point I question their testimony as Christians. Prove us wrong……..Those checks that every one got, will be short lived……Read your team contract. And they didn’t get something for nothing, that is impossible in team……..Don’t you listen to Orrin……It is a performance based business. No they got money because of the registration and initial tools in Life. Show me the money next December. Oh you can’t, that’s right so no one will ever know………….Team life is going down hill in a hurry….You will see and like they say…..In a year one of us will be right. I have seen data from the inside and talked with former inner circle members of Team………You have no idea the lie’s that are being perpetrated. You have your opinions and are entitled to them. There is not one credible business source outside the MLM industry that says Life is a good business, not even a viable business. Again prove me wrong. I have seen checks of team members that were suppose to be making 2-3 grand off the numbers of systems in their teams, they check wasn’t even close to that. I also talked with members of martins team. His rank was bought in MV and when he went turbo hundred more than 30 tickets in his second leg were thrown away because no one had bought them to go to the seminar. His team mates bought them then had to eat them because they couldn’t sell them…….Common practice in team. We have facts, show us the money, actual numbers and summary of numbers…again, you can’t because they do not provide them…….Why? because then there would be proof of the lie’s.

    I will wait for your proof of income, actual real proof with the summaries. Then if I am wrong I will gladly admit it.

    We were also told that many of the leaders that were in other groups, guy’s like Florence and Haugen took pay out’s from Q during the lawsuit……….You need to ask yourself why all of these MLM champions would have left the lawsuit that Orrin originated………..You might be surprised to hear the truth………..

  410. Speak Your Truth permalink
    December 29, 2011 7:46 pm

    My brothers other brother had more smarticles; was a mathematician and said it is elementary that the LIEf comp plan sucked the LIEf out of all BUT the TOP 7 bank accounts as a matter of mathematical certainty (+) ‘special deals’ =… all the rest will continue to drain/ LOSE money out of their bank accounts; while ‘believing’ in the guru’s and the top 7 lifestyles have been gotten from bona fide customers… without them even realizing it! He also had a minor in illusions…and says some are very poor at it!

  411. Vogel permalink
    December 29, 2011 8:12 pm

    Brent, I had a good laugh just knowing that you were laughing too. I consider that a great accomplishment, given that you’re not prone to emotional outbursts amid your cold hard facts and deadly mathematical analyses.

    Oh yeah, and let’s not forget Brig Hartless!

  412. Mike Collins permalink
    December 29, 2011 9:48 pm

    Sometimes being a fly on the wall is all I need…….

  413. Mike Collins permalink
    December 30, 2011 10:23 am

    And let’s not forget Donald Chump….

  414. Got2LoveIt permalink
    December 30, 2011 3:13 pm

    Keep going. Our team also did great in our first month. It works!!
    I would stay away from this page. They lack the results you and I are chasing. This will be my only post here.

  415. No Team For Me permalink
    December 30, 2011 4:25 pm

    Got2LoveIt – wrong. Many of us DID hae the results you were seeking. Job optional and some of the most recognized leaders in team. Our results were VERY impressive. The problem is we found out all the lies and deceit as we began to get more time around the inner circle.

    Look at how many important people in Orrin’s life have left Team. His former pastor & mentor Pastor Dickie, Bob Dickie former Chief Executive at Team, Don Freeze Orrin’s former boss, Randy Haugen – the person who was responsible for finding MonaVie for Orrin, Billy & Peggy Florence – former President of the Amway Board and the person who helped try to keep Orrin from being kicked out of Amway for all his abuses, Chuck Goetschel – one of the most respected people in the industry, Mike & Christei Raatz who stuck their neck out by being on one of the original lawsuits for Orrin, and the list goes on and on and on and on. People who saw what went on behind the scenes and could not continue supporting such lack of integrity.

  416. Arturo permalink
    December 30, 2011 4:44 pm

    Got2LoveIt, you make me laugh. No results. The team is full of no results people. No results currently and guaranteed no results in the future. We get our results the old fashion way, we earn them. You won’t see anyone here lying about awards, numbers, or growth. We don’t have to lie, spin, and manipulate people to be successful. My life has drastically improved having left team and everyone I know feels the same way. How come no one that leaves ever wishes they had stayed? Here is a simple equation for you. The longer it takes you to learn the truth the angrier you will be when you discover it.

  417. Speak Your Truth permalink
    December 30, 2011 6:00 pm


    Great post…..Amen!!

  418. brent hansen permalink
    December 30, 2011 6:31 pm

    Hear hear Arturo!

  419. RLambert permalink
    December 30, 2011 9:38 pm

    You guys are a comedy show. I love it, keep the posts coming – it fits right in with the Fun “F”. Thanks!!

    I have to apologize as I had made the assumption that everyone in this page at least had a concept of what having a business is like. You seem to be stuck in the idea that everyone who joined in the last couple of weeks has to break even in the first month in order for it to be a good business model. This shows that when it comes to business ownership, you lack the experience and knowledge. See my family for generations has owned a number of businesses, in some we failed and in some, well have been in business for over 50 years. To be in business you have to be willing to risk a bit more than 1 month and a few bucks… or did you not know that ?

    By your question, you seem to imply that everyone who graduated with a degree broke even after receiving their first paycheck. I’m sure you know the answer to that.

    Now as far as all the people who left team who were this or that with Amway or whatever.. well, let’s just say that I am not or have ever been in Amway. Also, we all have our freedom to choose our own paths in life and those who left chose theirs and so did those who stay. Who are we to judge any of them ?
    You know, in the over 50 years that my family has been in business, there are plenty of people who have left, some partners, some employees. All had their reasons and I am sure if you asked them, their reason and their opinion is the only one that counts.

    No business is perfect, no leader is perfect but I do respect the fact that at least TEAM is showing enough leadership to stand in the front lines and speak truth rather than hide behind a keyboard and talk about those who at one time happened not to agree with them. You can speak of results, or integrity, but until you walk the talk this is nothing but cheap talk.

    Men of integrity pick up their pieces and rise up never looking back or blaming others for their lack of results. All I see in this page is what this country has been sadly infected with and that is “a poor me” attitude. “I am not to blame so blame everyone else”. I am done wasting my time in this blog. I’m sure you all can’t wait to jump and twist my comments with a bunch of nonsense, but then again, what else can I expect from business amateurs.

  420. brent hansen permalink
    December 31, 2011 2:48 am

    @RLambert, I am sorry you are so deceived, best wishes for a bright and prosperous future. This kills me, ‘ I do respect the fact that at least TEAM is showing enough leadership to stand in the front lines and speak truth ‘. Someday when you realize how far from the TRUTH that statement is, we welcome you back to tell your story. I will still be here ‘hiding behind my keyboard’. Until then, don’t let us ‘amateurs’ steal your dream.

  421. Finally permalink
    December 31, 2011 1:50 pm

    Lambert, you have your families credentials which are questionable, but what have you done? No, people on here are not crying poor me just a woman who has been raped that reports it is not crying why me……….You are the one that is shameful Team does not have the truth, in fact they are so corrupt they are not sure what the truth is anymore. If you doubt anyone on here ask team leaders, again, for proof of any of their claims. Just as I am sure one that would go into business with your family would want to see proof of their claims. You are the one that seems to be an amateur business person. In fact I know you can’t be credible because you have seen no proof of teams claims and you are buying it. Ask Orrin what he makes, ask him if any of the claims on her are true…and please record it so we can add it to our proof. In fact get it in writing and record it, if he is telling the truth he should jump at the opportunity to show us all up…………As far as hiding………please grow up, people have reasons for being on here, the same way Orrin and tim did during the Q lawsuit, remember Tim got fined 60, 0000 from the court for doing exactly what we are accused of. Team are a bunch of corrupt liars, and again there is proof………

  422. das permalink
    December 31, 2011 6:33 pm

    Just answer the questions Lambert. You stated that almost everyone on your team got a check the first month. Did they break even or lose money? Did you lose money? Did anyone on your team break even? Just answer that question. Please show us proof that anyone besides the policy council is making money after expenses.

    I doubt you can or you would have done it already. Instead you go on and on with your Team Speak. Prove us all wrong Lambert, PLEASE!

  423. das permalink
    December 31, 2011 6:36 pm

    “Men of integrity”….excuse me while I barf.

  424. Finally permalink
    January 1, 2012 4:03 pm

    What Lambert doesn’t understand is that we all know the truth about Team. When you have had the koolaide like he has, and you lose your ability to critically think you end up with your nose up their butt’s, like lambert has. If he had the business experience he claims he would understand what we are saying. orrin is a LIAR, palin and simple. He is a cheat and first class scumbag for what he has done. The PC voted to pay for the lawsuit Orrin started, he then took profit from profit sharers to pay for the lawsuit, which by the way is most likely illegal. That is not a good person, or a smart one for that matter. If the PC voted to screw people out of the money they earned then they ran as a criminal enterprise. And guess what, that is what the mafia did and the government instituted something by the name of RICCO…………..If they are guilty of this…………they will have their precious STUFF confiscated by the very people they rip on from stage.

  425. Finally permalink
    January 1, 2012 4:17 pm

    Wanted to add some stuff, this is a good a post as any to do it. I have spoke with many former team leaders from all different lines of sponsorship…… see in the real world there is no stinking cross lining. Any hoot, what I have found is that people from all different teams have the same stories. These are some bad men on team…….and I use the term men loosely because the way they have stolen from people has made me wonder about them as men, christians and people for that matter. I mean they brag on each other all of the time and how great they are yet there is not one credible source on leadership talking about them…….Tim must be renamed as the Viqueen, because he is no man for what he has done to his teammates, especially Mike and Kristi Raatz. He is no man, a poor excuse for a leader and think of his legacy………Thief……….orrin and Chris as well. They are all in it together. Guzzardo is probably the least qualified of all of them to be called a leader for what the Morgans were put through……..Read their story to see what I mean. We all need to spread the word about these guys, the walls are closing in………..Orrin talks about a Million people and claims the team will do a 100 million in tool business this year HA………I feel sorry for the cronies that buy into that……… they even realize he’s pimping them out to pay for his lifestyle??? How in the world do these people sleep at night?? They preach the bible yet their is zero evidence of what they preach in their business life. They are evil and wicked. That is my opinion. I pray for the day when they realize what they have done and make amends……..

  426. Speak Your Truth permalink
    January 1, 2012 5:51 pm


    Amen! I did have to laugh.. well burst out laughing.. at the Viqueen! But all what you say is so true! They scream it til people become deaf to hearing it; that they are Christian, God fearing men,(“man child” is what Orrin+Qrush called Scott Larsen, perhaps he was really referring to himself) Guru’s, Leaders, Hero’s etc..but their actions speak so loudly no one can hear their words (except) the ones who have been bought and owned by them (the ones who got the freebies and the only ones being touted as the ‘movin on’ (cheaters and fakers) and they are none of those things they claim to be.

    I agree what is their legacy. they are leaving for their children? Well if the right things, authorities, or investigations happen then their could be potential for them leaving the same legacy Bernie Madoff is leaving… Behind bars the rest of their days.

    They are as much Christian, God fearing, and Leaders as they are the fake and fraudulent Guru’s. I have seen where Orrin states he is “amazed and thankful” (should be ashamed as Vogel pointed out) for getting the award from the most deceptive award givers!

    I agree their days are numbered and O knows it, he must be having many sleepless nights trying to scheme out a plan of what he will do when he is caught and WHO he will throw under the bus? Who will be first? (Tim, Chris, George?) to protect himself from any responsiblity and the RICCO law or anything else they will have to face in the days to come. It is inevitable…. You reap what you sow! You cannot not screw over tens if not hundreds of thousands of people and expect them to sit back and take it!

    The ‘no-cross lining’ rule must be coming back like a poisonous snake and biting them hard! Who in the world except those who take prisioners of war and the communist would control who others talk to? I agree not many more words to best describe their actions, in my opinion; than evil and wicked!

  427. switch permalink
    January 1, 2012 9:22 pm

    Just like that, hey Mr. Lambert?…….Just stick your snobby nose up in the air and leave? I thought you were actually doing pretty well until you called us a bunch of “amateurs”. (Doing well with the amount of deception you spewed through all your bullshit posts, that is.)

    Here’s what I found interesting about your deceiving comments….

    You stated,
    “.. well, let’s just say that I am not or have ever been in Amway.”

    Is that what you tell all your innocent victims? Tell me mr. lambert, how did all the leaders get to where they are today???? Did they do all the work in the LIEf biz? It launched November 1, 2011 and just like that, you have success knocking at your door!?? Seriously, you honestly think we’re that stupid???

    You stated,
    “Also, we all have our freedom to choose our own paths in life and those who left chose theirs and so did those who stay. Who are we to judge any of them ?”

    Take a good look at your leaders’ blogs and try and tell me how they don’t judge others by telling EVERYONE around them that the only results they have are just plain mediocre. Telling EVERYONE around them that they’re just waiting for that check and not doing a single thing in life but basically laying on the couch and growing a fatass. Really? Do you honestly know what everyone in life does for a living? Not judging eh mr. lambert?

    What was that you called us, again?…… “ameteurs”

    I think it’s absolutely hysterical when teamers get a hair up their ass when realizing they’re currently getting their asses handed to them over the world wide web.

    Cheers! Happy New Year!

  428. Finally permalink
    January 2, 2012 5:00 am

    Sorry for all the typo’s in my last post….I was a tad bit sleepy 🙂
    And yes speak, evil and wicked. The stories are shocking and unsettling. People busted their humps, just like they were told to do, got results, helped people and bam…….their residual income was taken away. That is why they will crumble, they have no conscience, no code, no honor and most of all no guts. How much gumption does a man have to send a friend, whom is guardian of your children in your will, a two line text stating he is getting his last pay check and was voted out of profit sharing…hence the new moniker Viqueen. I may have to reconsider that one………I do not want to degrade women.

    Aside from all the monetary stealing, what they did at Pastor Dickie’s church is beyond comprehension. To use your influence to bully people out of their place of worship is something in and by itself that brings all of their “testimonies” into question. Pastor was the mentor to many if not all of the top “leaders”. I do not know all the specifics but I do know our up lines and many others counseled with Pastor monthly. What he must have felt from the betrayal and flat out meanness is something I probably will never understand. They have brought shame and dishonor to themselves, their families and their legacies. And then you have their wives’…………I do not think I can say anything about them…….the fact that they stand by their husbands when they know the truth, is reprehensible. Nothing in their life is done for the glory of God as they state so many convenient times. They get on stage and whip up the tear’s, and talk of Bible studies, and cry some more about their kid’s and tell stories about how their husbands our heroes……….PULEEEEEEEZE!!!!!!
    Tell how they stole incomes, slandered innocent hard working people, bad mouthed individuals and couples, took recognition in front of thousands for work they did not do………In other words tell the TRUTH. Forgive my language but they plain SUCK!!!!!

    Okay time for breakfast 🙂

  429. January 3, 2012 8:47 am

    @webelieved – I bet every time Orrin and the PC go to a speaking location in a new city, they visit the site and click “More likely to join TEAM LIFE.”

  430. January 8, 2012 1:10 am

    Just to calrify I would have never joined team when they were pushing Monavie. This new product of the 8 F’s and the LLR subscription series is interesting and I believe one can get something out of it to improve their lives. I own my insurance agency and understand teh power of residual income so I did join the TEAM yet I am only a week into it and after reading the posts from before the new launch, I can see now in this new model that the goal is to keep people on subscriptions and also bring in people that will go out and bring others in to be subsrcibers and be part of the community team. This can be a powerful tool but the idea of getting rich a financal free needs to be toned down a bit. I am not into the big stadium type group rah rah meetings and that part turns me off. I started my own insurance agency so I could spend more time with my kids and the idea of going to all these weekend functions is not my idea of what I am going to want to do. The once a week nightly meetings in my community and sharing ideas and principles and how you can apply them in your lives and businesses I do believe is very valuable and I am willing to spend $50 per month simply for that and to receive a book a month. Not sure what the books will be yet but I suspect they are all not bad. Ya I could get these at a book store on my own and start my own community/book club to discuss the ideas in these books to better our lives but I am interested and introgued by the business side of it and potential for a little passive income. I did not get into this with the idea of leaving or selling my agency as I would never do that and I am in the process of replacing myself within the agency so as to spend more time doing what is important to me all the while maintaingin my income from my customer book of business becasue I provide a product that is required by law is some respects (Work comp in CA), general laiblity and other types of policies ie; Homeowners and personal auto that people will cut last if things get tough. I hear the naysayers but believe that you can’t look to this as a means to the end of working and that you will be financially free. I see it as a personal and business growth tool within a community of like minded individuals all striving to improve their lives and businesses as well. Am I missing something here? Thanks for the replies.

  431. j Howard permalink
    February 12, 2012 11:03 am

    Since u didn’t become a man and leave your name I decided u will get a fake name here stupid. People like u remind me of the puss that oozes from an infected wound. I hope u feel better now that u have had your rant because u are obviously to lazy to do the work and create success so your alternative is to steal other achievers success. LOZER

    [Editor’s note: There’s really no point in replying to this comment.]

  432. Kevin permalink
    February 18, 2012 4:55 pm

    I love LIFE!!!!! it has trully mad eme a better person and allow me to see the good in people and care so much more for them. the money is a side thing for me. the information is what is sooooo amazing!!!!!!!!

  433. GregR permalink
    February 20, 2012 3:08 pm

    LIFE is great!! All the information listed at the top of this page is incorrect. I never had to purchase any juice or any additional products at the time of sign up. The couple that introduced us to LIFE is an extremely successful couple in many ways. Money isn’t all that important to me as we have other income avenues, yet there’s something about great information. I can see that the few of you who have decided to invest so much of your efforts to criticize or bad mouth the system don’t even understand the concept of LIFE. This is not even about a business, rather than doing the right thing and teaching truth.

  434. February 20, 2012 3:13 pm

    @GregR – Ask the couple who introduced LIFE what TEAM was doing for the past three years. What were they selling?

  435. Speak Your Truth permalink
    February 20, 2012 4:06 pm

    Greg R~

    Hahahaha! Thanks for the laughs, preeeciate ya!… “You Can Do It, Buddy!”

    You know not what or who you are talking to or how many decades ‘devoted’ to the cult we have.

    Take the Advice of Webelieved and answer the Questions of Amthrax. And when you figure out after____years, (hopefully not too many yrs.; going broke) that 96% (this includes your odds and lot worse to go PC). They have 8 total PC after almost 2 decades, out of tens of thousands, and hundreds of thousand churned through that quit…go figure!

    Hope you figure out what we know before you are sucked dry in every sense. We will expect you to come back and when you do we will pick you back up!…Trust me, you will need the encouragement after you leave and your self-esteem is worst than when you started and they have told YOU, that YOU are the cause of Failing. More than likely that, that will be your fate because their ‘pay-plan’ is set up for your people that you bring in, guaranteed loses for you to make a pittance.
    Read the Comp Plan and the unconscionable P&P., I bet you will get it. 🙂

  436. das permalink
    February 20, 2012 6:06 pm

    Kevin and Greg R, I agree some of the information is good as long as it isn’t from any of the members of Team. The people you are following are cons, and you will be too if you recruit your friends into this scam. That’s all you will be, a recruiting con-man. Go ahead, ruin your life and friendships but remember you were warned here on Amthrax.

  437. Freedomhaha permalink
    February 20, 2012 8:15 pm

    LIFERS- The info is great when you don’t use it in a manner that manipulates people (TEAM LIFE). I am reading and learning from people everyday FOR FREE. Here is a secret: People that are excellent in any area will often mentor you FOR FREE. They got where they are because of mentors and sometimes the greatest joy is passing it on. However, in LIFE TEAM you have to pay to be mentored by someone who often has none of the credentials, and false motivation. Why would they ever tell you anything other than: read, buy, go, repeat!?!? If they ever did the business will fail.

    You are lucky that when (not if) you come back here the great people will pick you up as they did to me. I devote time to help misguided people in LIEF/TEAM because the people on here helped me. You could say we are building a community by leveraging information.

  438. I QUIT (and glad I did) permalink
    February 21, 2012 4:55 am

    Once again I will point out the obvious. You Teamers are violating your own P&Ps. Grounds for the PC to “escort you out” of “your own business”. Good luck.

    PS- Where’s the integrity in that?

  439. Speak Your Truth permalink
    February 21, 2012 10:46 am

    Greg R~

    You say:”All the information listed at the top of this page is incorrect.”

    That information was “correct” at the time it went put up, and will agree it wasn’t the entire cost or ‘price’ that we paid, what our ‘costs’ and what we paid were a whole lot more! We also know that the ‘major’ ticket went up since the article it is $125, rather that $90 that the article reflects! And you would have to look at everyone’s records and read this blog in its entirety to get an idea of the truth (what’s yours’) of the real price we all paid and it involves way more than money!

    So, If you or anyone else are so concerned and want to ‘update’ those costs, then feel free and send in the ‘current’ information to Amthrax.

    But this we know Greg, you are trying to split hairs, and we all know the ‘real’ cost!

  440. February 21, 2012 11:10 am

    It would be good to post photos of TEAM MonaVie materials, if only to prove to these new LIFE members what TEAM has been doing for the past three years. It’s obvious that they are distancing themselves from MonaVie.

  441. Speak Your Truth permalink
    February 21, 2012 12:35 pm

    I agree Amthrax, and believe you could copy a few from the website. It would be more telling if the number of ‘Team Monavie Tool Sales’ (from seminars & majors) were shown also and if they those indicators were transparently show on their website. But we all know, that will Never happen because numbers don’t lie. It would be real interesting if someone had every ‘version’ of the same revised cd through all the MLM hopping and changes, that everyone repeatedly re-purchased, over an over an over an over….

    I remember them ‘patting’ the ‘seminar speakers’ during a time when they were tracking it; it was in a competitive way on what speakers across the country who would promote and sell the most tools at seminars. Because what they and All of us know is that whatever specific tools, the seminar speaker promoted the ‘heaviest’ and ‘most convincingly’; that is what they sold the most of.

    And you are right it is evident from those brand new ‘prospects’ who are seeing the Team Lief “business opportunity plan”, who come here and say they don’t even mention the juice or Monavie! Some even wondered what this ‘Juice’ mentioned on here is about!

  442. Finally permalink
    February 21, 2012 1:19 pm

    The only reason Orrin switched to Lief is all financial. A couple of years ago Orrin did a cd on what was important in life. He talked about politics, relationships and a couple of other factors. This was a preview of lief. The reason he did this was because he had to address the ten’s of thousands of people in team that were not making any money. He had been approached by many many people with their concerns about how the business had to be changed because too many people were not making any money, Orrin actually agreed and said the business needed to be fixed. Instead he started getting people to buy into the idea of a community where you feed your dollars to the top guy’s by purchasing a system that was designed to make you emotional so you in turn keep purchasing it. If you remember the the top 100 reasons to get into business are to make money, those are Orrins words, then you will understand how phony what they are doing is. Same system, higher prices, same talks but the focus is now on anything but the money making factor. All the people that come on here from team now talk about how much more important things in life are than making money……….Seriously? It is a business yet they down play the ability to make money and get the community focused on the other f’s. They suckered people in because they can now say that making money is not the most important thing, when in fact they down play it because their is a 99% failure rate in the business. They know the internal numbers, all of the former triple 100’s that stayed are making a fraction of what they were in Q. It is all structured to keep people on system to keep their money flowing.

    A couple more things, I have heard that Orrin doesn’t do this for the money……….If that is true then why did he take a 600,000 plus dollar pay check when all of the other profit sharers took a pay cut? Tim Marks supposedly gave up his pay check during that time period. Orrin was called a hero for spending millions of his own money on a lawsuit that he in fact Started………..does that make any sense? Who was suppose to pay for his lawsuit? He claims he did it for the community yet never asked the community if they wanted a lawsuit, he also took profit from the community of profit sharers to pay for a lawsuit that HE started, again while HE was taking as much as 600,000 dollars a month. Now I am an to a genius but does any of this make sense? Orrin takes profit from people that had nothing to do with a lawsuit he in fact started, against their will, He claims hero for being a victim of vicious attacks from a supplier he brought a lawsuit against, he started the Qrush blog and said more vile things about people than have ever been said about him all anonymously and then calls people who wish to remain anonymous on here cowards………..The man and his PC are screwy with this type of thinking.

    Just some thoughts

  443. Freedomhaha permalink
    February 21, 2012 1:58 pm

    Speak- The CD idea is a great one. Does anyone know how many versions exist of Brady’s “Life in the Zone” CD? I feel like that one is a pretty good bet to be many different copies.

  444. Speak Your Truth permalink
    February 21, 2012 3:31 pm

    Finally~ Right on!


    What about “The Freshman Caught Me?”(one of the 1st and stories( of course it was the guru’s) that came out when Orrin broke off of Ron and Toby Hale and Dexter Yager; his upline Diamonds and the start of ‘HIS’ copy cat system he now calls Team Lief( because the Yager system didn’t pay enough).

    It was Amway/Quixtar/Amway(ssshhh that was the “former supplier,” they speak about today, but either can’t or won’t mention that name same as they did when they were building A/Q/A, trained people to NOT say that you are in A/Q!) That is where Orrin began this whole farce.

    Or what about the CD’s; “Earn It” or “Superman”
    or “Victory II”, most of the Top 50 for that matter… and on and on with all those dating back to the Quixtar/Amway days and the first CD’s they made?

    One last point on more hypocrisy, Orrin and other PC will betray and turn on anyone if they think, hear a rumor, or have a paranoid thought, about someone they believe is being ‘unloyal’ to them and they will go behind the people’s backs and how low they will go to try and strip the real leaders credibiltiy so they will hold them in and to keep a grip on those people out of fear of them leaving the Team.

    For example, All those ‘leaders’ that belong and should be ‘loyal’ to all their UPLINE’s?

    That put years of time, effort, and money into them. So, Orrin and the PC should be telling all those people who were never in their teams to go be loyal to their own uplines, such as; R. Haugen, B.Florence, Smith, Sims, Harties etc, etc.. and all the rest of their teams that decided they would no longer be ‘loyal’ to their ‘upline’?

    What a concept; Practice what you preach!

    Why doesn’t Orrin treat them as he would if he thinks someone else is ‘unloyal’ to him? Hmmm…Well, anyone with half a brain can figure that out.

    Double Standards, Double Deceiving Messages… that is what they live by!

  445. GregR permalink
    February 21, 2012 4:56 pm

    Wow, I’ve come to the conclusion that none of you know a thing about LIFE and what it teaches.
    It came in this site only to offer my opinion and what I have so far learned about LIFE and what do I get? Right away you all go on the offensive and post some unnecessary comments. How do you expect to be believed?
    As far as joining LIFE, I have no regrets, in fact I’m quite excited and already looking forward to the March subscription materials.
    I do apologize for even coming in here, but it’s obvious that if any of you were ever part of TEAM, you forgot to apply the people skills and principles.
    I must warn all readers of this blog that the posts in this blog are no more than superficial and opinions of bloggers with little business and leadership experience. Not a single post offers any facts that I can call credible as no one here can even verify or prove any previous results within TEAM.
    I am a strong believer that change is inevitable, and any company and organization that does not change will eventually loose its place. This is true in corporate America, in business ownership as well as in government. You all can appreciate our economic situation as a result of Americans not changing our thinking. I applaude those who have the courage to change and identify opportunities. I see the potential in LIFE but whether or not I decide to invest the time to pursue the income opportunity, well that’s up to me. I have not read anything in this blog that would discourage me from doing just that. Again, I apologize if I have offended anyone but I must say that the more negative I see the more I realize that the information is misleading. Three years ago when I asked several friends and family their thoughts on investing in apple shares, everyone thought I had lost it. Who would want to be investing when we were in a recession. Apple shares are trading at over $500 per share today. The lesson here is “be careful who you take advise from” it could be an expensive one. The couple who introduced me to LIFE are well respected outside of the TEAM community and they have learned to surround themselves with people who are extremely passionate about what they do, some LIFE and some successful entrepreneurs. In that environment there’s no backstabbing or gossiping or criticizing anyone. That’s the difference I have noticed between the LIFE community and your blog.

  446. Freedomhaha permalink
    February 21, 2012 5:28 pm

    You’re clueless buddy. Come back when you are turbo 10 because people on here have not only been on TEAM, but had way more success than you ever will. I will leave this to the real experts on here to give you some “mentorship”, but how dare you compare a great American company like Apple to TEAM. TEAM has been around what 18,19 years with not much to show for it because its an unstable model. You may not know it, but 20,000 plus people were at a major only a few years ago. Yes, that is much less than now, but I know you guys are all FIRED UP and EXPLODING!!!

  447. TruthSeeker permalink
    February 21, 2012 5:53 pm

    GregR. Keep doing what you are doing genius. It is so obvious you are heads above anyone on here. Go get em!

  448. Speak Your Truth permalink
    February 21, 2012 6:28 pm

    Greg R~

    I will go with TruthSeekers comments…you can do it!

    There is one thing I will add, don’t play us for fools; The rhetoric Greg is a dead give away.

  449. das permalink
    February 21, 2012 6:29 pm

    Greg, are you really going to tell me Team is just about learning leadership and isn’t a recruiting scam? So you don’t have to make a list of everyone you know, contact them, and set up an appointment with all of your friends and family members to show them the scam…I mean plan?

  450. Finally permalink
    February 21, 2012 6:36 pm

    Gregg you sound like a step ford wife………..And you should heed your warning about how you take advice from. Four or more high level team life guys are having their house foreclosed on, 3 or more have filed bankruptcy after giving talks on being financially independent. One had committed atrocities that we will not talk about and many many more are headed in the exact opposite direction of what life teaches. So Gregg you really need to check your facts about the people you are involved with. Check out the blog here their info in the bankruptcies are public record. Yeah we miss what life is about. The leader of life has lied under oath in a United States court of law and on his blog and on numerous cd’s………….but you get those next cd’s and get fired up!!! Practice what you are preaching my friend you are in for expensive lessons.

  451. Former Round Table permalink
    February 22, 2012 6:03 am

    GregR is EXACTLY what Team Life is looking for!! Gullible, ignorant, and not afraid to say what he doesn’t know. Greg, if you are corruptible, you might actually have a chance to make it to the big time!!

  452. Over and Out permalink
    February 22, 2012 6:55 am

    Greg~ What does Chris always say “You don’t know what you don’t know” Well eventually you will learn what we KNOW and you don’t. Good luck to you.

  453. I QUIT (and glad I did) permalink
    February 22, 2012 7:51 am

    Greg- Jump into the grinder. We’ll see what you have to say when you get spit out the other end.

  454. GregR permalink
    February 23, 2012 3:12 pm

    Everyone, I appreciate the comments but without any proof, all this is is background noise.

    It does surprise me that all of you claim to have been at high rank levels in Team yet you forgot to apply some of the main principles. If you are going to say something about someone use the 3 step rule:
    1. Is it true? No data, no proof from anyone that I can see.
    2. Is it positive. So far, nothing I’ve read here is positive.
    3. Is it useful to anyone – so far these seem to be only opinions and thus not very helpful.

    Again, I apologize but without any facts it’s hard to be credible.

  455. TruthSeeker permalink
    February 23, 2012 4:13 pm

    @GREG R. Open your back office and see how many people are making enough money to break even, if that can’t convince you, nothing will.

  456. February 23, 2012 4:21 pm


    It does surprise me that all of you claim to have been at high rank levels in Team yet you forgot to apply some of the main principles. If you are going to say
    1. Is it true? No data, no proof from anyone that I can see.

    I do NOT need proof of people who say they were at high ranks in the TEAM. In a way that is not even important, It is important that they sat high enough in the tree to know enough of the “corrupt” inside of TEAM/LIFE business to warn others about the scam that is going on. More important, these people do NOT ask for money for their advice, and leave it up to the readers to draw their own conclusion.

    Personally I only NEED proof before I would invest in any business. If you want to be your own business owner (as TEAM/LIFE suggest you will be) you need to act as one, and do your own research and not trust the information you get from insiders At that point YOU are the investor who needs to make sure that YOUR money has a big chance to make MONEY. You need to be in the lead role and do your own INDEPENDENT research and ask for proof BEFORE you put in one dime or sign a contract. You need to see legitimate business plans, approved results of the last years, etc.

    If you just ( HAVE TO) INVEST in books or CD’s to improve yourself as a leader BEFORE you can succeed in YOUR business, you are just a CONSUMER AND CERTAINLY NOT an independent business owner.

    Greg, you seem to like the system because you learn a lot. That’s fine, but people are lured into the LIFE/TEAM system to become an independent business owner, NOT A CONSUMER.

    2. Is it positive. So far, nothing I’ve read here is positive.

    Because the model and facts do not lead to positive results for the majority of the people who step info this business.

    3. Is it useful to anyone – so far these seem to be only opinions and thus not very helpful.

    No, I wrote once before. This site gives mathematical facts that the LIFE/TEAM model is not going to work for 96% of the people. So, it is NOT only a matter of opinion.

    I am so sorry for you that you have been so sucked into the system. If you are really so naive to believe in LIFE/TEAM, I wish you and your family all the best, and hope your eyes will open before this opportunity will have destroyed your life and your family.

    There is enough in the world for everyone’s need, but not enough for everyone’s greed” [Frank Buchman Remaking the World]

  457. Freedomhaha permalink
    February 23, 2012 7:16 pm

    Greg- The writing on this site were VERY helpful to me. They helped me get my mind, family, and money back. Is it positive? Well I’m positive that 95% of people in TEAM/LIFE will lose money, does that count?

  458. Freedomhaha permalink
    February 23, 2012 8:46 pm

    webelieved- If I remember right Orrin used to quote Chris as saying “Truth isn’t positive or negative, truth is truth” Hey, something on TEAM I agree with!

  459. Brent Hansen permalink
    February 24, 2012 5:32 am

    I just read back through Carl W’s answers to the questions I asked which he posted on Nov. 21 @ 7:51 a.m. good stuff! Where is Carl, I miss him? And when is he going to answer the questions that I asked with a direct answers? Still waiting Carl, where are you?

    Since Greg R. seems to be the brother of Carl W. it is probably appropriate to ask the same questions of Greg that Carl failed to answer. How about it Greg you up for a real conversation? Lets talk shop here, cut the crap. Here you go. Your in the no rhetoric zone my friend, lets get real.

    1. Did anyone from Life talk about ROI?
    2. Did anyone address the fact that the compensation plan is written with a mandatory 96% failure ratio?
    3. Are you ok with bringing people into something where 96% of them must be operating in the red at any given time?
    4. Did anyone discuss the fact that close to 50% of all compensation dollars are held for less than1% of all participants?
    5. Did anyone disclose what the net profit of Life is, and to whom those compensation dollars flow?
    6. Did anyone explain how and why they were forced to file bankruptcy?
    7. Was there any talk of any possible ‘cash’ deals that may have occured when Team came into Monavie?
    And a few new ones.
    8. Did anyone talk about production costs?
    9. Did Life offer any transparency since you all are ‘business partners’?
    10. Did they discuss anything that remotely resembled a business meeting?

  460. switch permalink
    February 24, 2012 9:49 am

    GregR says-
    “3. Is it useful to anyone – so far these seem to be only opinions and thus not very helpful.”

    Would it be an opinion if I told you that the PC didn’t achieve their rank through the new life system?

    Please fill me in on how this isn’t “helpful” information to ANYONE, Greg….?

  461. No Team For Me permalink
    February 24, 2012 11:14 am

    GregR (aka anonymous RT or PC member of Team/Life),

    In regard to wanting proof – I dare you to ask for proof from Team/Life. Ask for the tax returns of anyone below the PC level and lets see how much they are truly making. Ask for the tax returns of the PC’s and find out how much money they were really making on tools back when they were trying to make people think all their money came from Amway/quixtar or Monavie.

    Find out what happened to such mega-leaders as the Freeze, Morgans, Raatz, Peter’s Foos.

    Why did Pastor Dickie & Bob Dickie really leave?

    why would people of integrity like Florence, Haugen, Goetschel, DiSalvitore, Libby, Smith, Crawford all dis-associate themselves with Orrin after finding out all the inside information during the Quixtar arbitration?

    Why are there less than 1/3 the people at majors now than there were 4 years ago? Is that really growth?

    Why did they claim for all those years that there really wasn’t much money made off the tools and seminars, yet now they are promoting how much money someone can make off tools and seminars through LIFE? If there’s really that much money when there’s so many people sharing in the pot now, wouldn’t there have been an obscene amount of money for the handful of people dipping in the pot back then?

    Like you said Orrin (I mean GregR) – make Team/Life show you proof

  462. switch permalink
    February 24, 2012 1:13 pm

    GregR says-
    “2. Is it positive. So far, nothing I’ve read here is positive.”

    Keep reading Greg, or get your head out of your ass and wake up to people getting their trust back and making new friends on this blog.

  463. Speak Your Truth permalink
    February 24, 2012 1:18 pm

    No Team for Me~

    Great points and questions for Greg R.(aka anonymous RT or PC member of Team/Life)

    You would have to be a blind fool to not see the ‘proof’. I would add the ‘proof’ is in their own P&P, court records, newspaper articles, and comp plan analysis, (figures don’t lie, but liars sure can figure..Remember?). And is very easy to find on this blog.

    It is too sad what people will do to remain self-deceived.

  464. Speak Your Truth permalink
    February 24, 2012 1:28 pm

    Switch~ 🙂

    He could also find ‘proof’ in the lawsuit that can be found on the web, but we know he isn’t looking for ‘proof’.

    Sorry, IMO Greg R. you have fallin for and use the rhetoric, so don’t think for a second anyone on here has fallin for you aren’t a part of Lief or Team. Your masters you follow and their actions are not positive and IMO, if they are they are prentending to be.

    But we can no longer be deceived by the; fake guru status,the hype, the idolitry and pretended happy, happy, happy, (self-denial). We are much wiser than that; based on decades of ‘learning’ and experiences.

  465. GregR permalink
    February 25, 2012 9:14 am

    @Brent H

    You sure like to get attention don’t you? Is that because you lack skills in relationships or are you just bitter?
    You seem to think you know everything about everything, so why don’t you answer your own questions? Obviously there isn’t anyone as wise as you. Take the opportunity and answer the questions any way you want so that you get the attention you are looking for.
    Just like those who are studying leadership know. No critic has ever accomplished anything worth following. Thanks for posting your opinions.

  466. GregR permalink
    February 25, 2012 9:40 am

    @ switch

    Classy, since you have manners and obviously no credibility on anything you have posted you have to resort to insulting those who disagree with you. You are absolutely right, you do not belong in Team/LIFE. Those of us who are involved still follow principles which leads to respecting those who agree and those who disagree with us. As for us, criticism from those who disagree, it only gives us more belief that we are fighting against the current of the status quo. Thank you for the encourament. I appreciate it.

  467. switch permalink
    February 25, 2012 11:55 am

    LOL,…please you’re killin me. Let me get my chair warm and comfy.

    oh my….I’ve been told I don’t belong in team/life. Oh please, don’t hurt my feelings.

    No manners eh? yea……I do recall your infamous leader spewing his bullshit, “professional manners” one day making his call to everyone around him…”gutless, parasites, and bottom feeders” or some “competitor” of his, that’s not in his little scamway spin~off. Now that was CLASSY!!!!

    That is in fact, the one you’re following, correct?

    Greg says-
    “I see the potential in LIFE but whether or not I decide to invest the time to pursue the income opportunity, well that’s up to me.

    then greg foolishly says-
    “Those of us who are involved still follow principles which leads to respecting those who agree and those who disagree with us. As for us, criticism from those who disagree, it only gives us more belief that we are fighting against the current of the status quo. Thank you for the encourament. I appreciate it.”

    so greg, which is it? First you tell us it’s gonna be up to you, then you drop the “principle/3 step rule” on us? My god greg, it’s like you went from a “hungry student” to “ruby” overnight.

    Keep going greg, I enjoy watching you dig your hole.

  468. switch permalink
    February 25, 2012 12:47 pm

    Speak- 😉

  469. Brent Hansen permalink
    February 25, 2012 2:26 pm

    @Greg R. I both lack skills in relationships and am bitter against this farce of an industry you call a “business”. Posting opinions? Not quite sure I am following you there, I haven’t shared my opinion with you at all yet.

    Bottom line is you refuse to answer the exposing questions which I asked of you. Best thing you can do is come back with a personal attack against me, really?

    You guys are all the same, when it comes down to real questions, real numbers and real business none of you answer.

    Could you please answer at least once question? Which principles are you all following, I would be curious to know?

  470. Freedomhaha permalink
    February 25, 2012 3:21 pm

    Greg R- “No critic has ever accomplished anything worth following.”

    I am sure glad great people like Fredrick Douglas were critical of slavery in America. If you study history people that are critics are often times LEADERS. TEAM is critical to a lot of things if you read the P&P which you might not have because posting on here is illegal.

    God bless!

  471. switch permalink
    February 27, 2012 9:13 am


  472. I QUIT (and glad I did) permalink
    February 27, 2012 9:24 am

    Hey Switch- Don”t forget the “classy” ,”professional” terminology used by the Gurus to describe individuals who spoke against them and the business. You know…. the so called “Thumb sucking pinheads”. Remember that one? Leading by example. Yup.

  473. Emily permalink
    February 27, 2012 11:25 am

    Actually Greg, Brent is using the Socratic method. Here is Wikipedi definition of it. The Socratic method (also known as method of elenchus, elenctic method, Socratic irony, or Socratic debate), named after the classical Greek philosopher Socrates, is a form of inquiry and debate between individuals with opposing viewpoints based on asking and answering questions to stimulate critical thinking and to illuminate ideas. It is a dialectical method, often involving an oppositional discussion in which the defense of one point of view is pitted against the defense of another; one participant may lead another to contradict him in some way, strengthening the inquirer’s own point.

  474. Speak Your Truth permalink
    February 27, 2012 12:09 pm


    Thanks for pointing out that “Fredrick Douglas were critical of slavery in America.” There many,many more as a matter of fact if everyone is completely honest they are ‘critics’ of something.

    Ever known? A Police Officers who was a ‘critic’ of criminals who had other Police Officers Follow, are they ‘worth following’?Unfortunate Victims of rape who start a ‘support group’; do you think they might be ‘critics’ of rape? Same with those who are ‘critics’ of Drunk Drivers and their ‘followers’ or Politians who are ‘critics’ of the opposing ‘views’ even if they are supposedly on the same side? Whistle Blowers,(critic of whatever they see wrong) Consumer Advocates? What about Religious leaders who have ‘followers’; Critics of evil? and on and on? Would these groups of ‘critics’ if you were affected or a part of would you consider them’ worth following’ or have they ‘accomplished anything’?

    I think most would agree that have ‘accomplished and have followers’, at least they add value even though they are ‘critics’ of something.

    How about criminals (gangs=Followers) who are trying to protect their crimes; who might they be critics of?

    What about people who are ‘critics’ of the Bosses, of the world, Businesses that isn’t ‘theirs’, Government, other Religions or non Religion, other people’s knowledge, free thinking, etc… basically everything that is not of what they think or believe; and those who beleive they have the world figured out for everyone else? Are they ‘Critics?’ yup; and their ‘followers?’ Are they worth following, not IMO. 🙂

    So GregR~ Your statement below, we could disagree; it simply isn’t true.

    “Greg R- “No critic has ever accomplished anything worth following.”

  475. Speak Your Truth permalink
    February 27, 2012 12:19 pm

    Defintion of crit·ic (krtk)
    1. One who forms and expresses judgments of the merits, faults, value, or truth of a matter.
    2. One who specializes especially professionally in the evaluation and appreciation of literary or artistic works: a film critic; a dance critic.
    3. One who tends to make harsh or carping judgments; a faultfinder.

    One last one is the: “Critic of the Critics”…. 🙂

  476. Speak Your Truth permalink
    February 27, 2012 12:37 pm

    One final note on GregR; who seems to be very ‘critical’ of those on here and IMO not very honest…. I believe Switch pointed that out very clearly, when he quoted GregR.

    What would be GregR’s ‘intention’ for coming here? Hmm.. not making much sense… so perplexing…perhaps it was to be ‘critical’ or set up some manipulative dialogue?

    Just an ‘opinion’…nothing wrong with having an opinion, but of course there are ‘critics’ of those who have an ‘opinion’ too. 🙂

  477. switch permalink
    February 27, 2012 12:56 pm

    Nooooooooooooo way.

    “Thumb sucking pinheads”….., greg? Can you confirm such derogatory insults and names out the so called, leaders?

    It just can’t be true, can it greg? Why on earth would someone of such high integrity, honor, and character do such a thing?

    But wait, when someone else does something similar towards the team/life, the team gets their undies all tied up in a knot.

    I have news for ya, greg….the tables are turned and people are coming forward.

  478. freedomhaha permalink
    February 27, 2012 1:15 pm

    Speak- Great post. Plenty of statues are built every year to critics all across the country. Only the most postmodern of thinkers (which the TEAM stands opposed too) are not critical of anything. Those that are looking for truth in life will always be critical of the false.

  479. Speak Your Truth permalink
    February 27, 2012 1:27 pm


    Ah ha! That must mean they ‘accomplished’ something and bet ya they had ‘followers’ too! 🙂

    I believe Amthrax and those on here fall into the.. #1 Definition.. just another ‘opinion’.. 🙂

  480. TruthSeeker permalink
    February 27, 2012 3:38 pm

    Definition #1, has my vote.

  481. Finally permalink
    February 27, 2012 6:41 pm

    Love it!!!

  482. Speak Your Truth permalink
    February 27, 2012 7:58 pm

    I do understand that some ‘critics of the critics’ who have been quite harsh with some carping judgement; based on ‘opinion’ of course.

    I have even hear it said that; “Critics are the death gargle of a non-achiever.”

    That I believe could be a pretty negative and carping judgement. 🙂

  483. GregR permalink
    February 28, 2012 4:36 pm

    Again, your comments continue to be superficial thoughts which lead nowhere. Until you have something credible that can stand on its own your posts will continue to be nothing but background noise. You can not seriously expect people who are either new to LIFE or seeking information to use this as a reputable source of information. Using this source for information on what LIFE does is no different than using the tabloids for educational purposes.
    I do have to admit that most of your arguments are quite entertaining and a splendid example of why people would rather get involved in sources of gossip than seek for ways to improve themselves through a leadership system.

  484. Speak Your Truth permalink
    February 28, 2012 5:35 pm


    You say: “You can not seriously expect people who are either new to LIFE or seeking information to use this as a reputable source of information.”

    Glad you think you gotter all firgured out GregR, but we don’t ‘expect’ people to do anything they don’t, won’t , will or already have done. Not sure how you know what anyone here ‘expects’ about anything.

    Do you GregR, also have the ‘data’ of those who have came on here ‘seeking’ information, found it reputable and then decided for themselves what in life they choose to do?

    You could find those ‘results’ by ‘counting’ up all those commentors and their comments that have came here and found it a ‘reputable source of information’ and made their decisions and said it in their posts. Most of them thank this site for doing just that.

    Perhaps you have a crystal ball, though? Somehow you think you know what others do and how they come to their own conclusions and they tend to do that in the real world, all on there own.Believe it or not, without anyones help, Amazing, I know!

    Because Then there are all those who did come here that did find it ‘reputable’ or not, but no one knows about,(not even you know) what decisions they made, or how reputable they found this site. I suppose you believe somehow you know that too?

    What is entertaining is you continue to come back here trying to convince someone? Not sure if it is yourself or if you think people are really that stupid? If you are so ‘happy’ with the information then I would find a website that is congruent with your beliefs. Otherwise what do you think you are ‘accomplishing’ here or what could be your motive? After all GregR you are breaching the Lief P&P, perhaps you should read that and then share why you would do that.

    Is it possible GregR that you know this site is a very reputable source, with facts, decades of experiences, and of course ‘opinions’ but is having a large effect on people making decisions, because people are just smart that way GregR, almost as smart as you. Either way or what decisions they make. But somehow you are trying, but failing to convince us of anything, or perhaps it is just to continue to convince yourself?… Cognitive dissonance?

    We are clear about what we have experienced and the facts obviously speak for themselves; something you clearly seem to deny. You can’t seriously think your comments will change the minds of anyone who can critically think on their own, who will make their own choices and don’t need your help to interpet whether something is ‘reputatble’ or not… Do you?

    Might want to follow the P&P and the contract you signed, that would your obligation and the ethical thing to do, not to mention you could loose your membership, then where would you go to get that great ‘leadership’ material?

    The library offers much of it for free. 🙂 Cheers

  485. Freedomhaha permalink
    February 28, 2012 8:28 pm

    I was actually looking for a Round Table members blog when I saw that he had gone bankrupt. Now Greg this wasn’t my opinion that he had gone bankrupt it WAS ACTUAL LEGAL DOCUMENTS. I would consider them pretty good facts. From there I used critical thinking even though I was still under cult influence, but I realized that I could no longer take financial advice from someone who was bankrupt with $0 in charitable giving on record. I guess I don’t know what else you need, but this site saved my life. I hope that someday you can come back here and accept the truth. People on here will sacrifice their time to help you FOR FREE.

    On a side note Greg I logged back into my LIFE site that had 600+ PV running through it when I quit in early November and now it has less than 50 PV. I bet you guys are pumped for the next major though that will be the next big thing! Exploding! Fired UP! TEAM island! Garbage, garbage, and more garbage.

    [Editor’s note: The bankruptcy documents can be found in this post.]

  486. February 29, 2012 5:55 am

    @Greg R – You want “Credible” facts do you? That’s nonsense. All you would have to do is run the numbers in your group. There are your FACTS brother. Even if YOU are doing well with Team, what about the rest of your group? Let me guess…. they are all just starting their “Leadership” journey. Yeah… I used to make myself feel better by using that one as well. I had hundreds of people in my group, nobody was even hitting the break even point, except me. If you want answers…. start asking the right questions, and be prepared to listen to the answers. The Facts are right in front of you. This site and the many bloggers on it, have helped numerous people wake up and see the light. My personal goal is to help as many people as I hurt in this “business”. I’ve still got a long road to travel. I would submit to you sir…. stop paving your road….it’s a long walk home.

  487. February 29, 2012 6:02 am

    Greg, your not going to answer any of the questions are you?

  488. Freedomhaha permalink
    February 29, 2012 7:48 am

    Athrax- Thanks for attaching the documents. You do great work on here I personally can’t thank you enough.

  489. switch permalink
    February 29, 2012 10:16 am

    “We are going to control the World economy from this

    – Jeff Yager, page 106, Merchants of Deception

  490. switch permalink
    February 29, 2012 10:28 am

    “We thought critically of former friends and even our own family members,
    condemning them as being lazy. They were on a crash collision with failure and did not
    seem to care. We were doing something wonderful with our lives by owning our own
    businesses and helping others succeed. The more criticism others heaped on us for being
    Amway distributors, the more committed we were to the cause. We had learned that
    criticism was the death rattle of the lazy. There never was a statue erected for a critic or a

    – Eric Scheibeler (ex-AMWAY Diamond), page 105, Merchants of Deception

    …..sounding familiar yet, greg?

  491. GregR permalink
    March 3, 2012 9:43 am

    I don’t see any of your names, including Anthrax, in the list of leaders selected by the international association of business. I do see a LIFE founder selected as the winner. See, in this blog the pattern seems to be a quitting attitude. Leaders, go the other way and deliver results. I would encourage you to listen to some order leadership audios, perhaps something basic such as “what is Leadership” I’m sure some of you still have that.
    We can continue the discussion after you’ve listened to it.

  492. Brent Hansen permalink
    March 3, 2012 10:55 am

    GregR, if leadership means driving an entire organization off a cliff several times, and devastating the lives of others, no thanks, I am happy to be a quitter.

    I guess historically there have been lots of great people who have quit now haven’t there?

    Your little rhetoric jabs are inconsequential, armies may assemble but the truth will roll forward boldly and independently.

  493. outsider permalink
    March 3, 2012 11:00 am

    I’ve got a better idea. How about you come back here and offer to “continue the discussion” 6 weeks from now – but only if you can go cold turkey off the CDs and the hype for that period. Oh, wait, don’t tell me. . . You can stop any time you want, but you just CHOOSE not to, right?

    Do you not see that’s exactly what you’ve presented of yourself here? It’s also what you’ve presented to the world of LIFE, you know, and that’s the real reason LIFE has it’s rules (which you’ve broken so many times) to prevent you from posting here. You’re giving their game away. You are.

  494. Brent Hansen permalink
    March 3, 2012 11:03 am

    One other thought Greg. True leaders do not need to talk about what great leaders they are. They simply go about their daily lives setting examples wherever they are. The best leadership is leadership by quite example. Which is more admirable, the man who stands on a stage applauded as a leader, but is full of hypocrisy, or the man who stops on the side of a road to help a little old lady who may have a flat tire?

    You see, in the end, the money we make has little to do with the true meaning of leadership.
    Are you leading Greg, or simply talking about it?

  495. Freedomhaha permalink
    March 3, 2012 1:11 pm

    Greg- The company that hands out that award is another MLM! I could be off, but I thought Vogel had already established that on this blog. Maybe Amthrax can confirm that and/or post the link.

    [Editor’s note: More information on the IAB,, and the dubious nature of these leadership “awards” can be found here.]

  496. GregR permalink
    March 3, 2012 2:59 pm

    @Brent H

    See Brent, unlike you, we get to got out on the field to spread truth and help those who want to be helped.
    If you understand the basics of leadership then you should know that you can talk all you want but if no one is following, then you are only out for a walk.
    I still see LIFE growing, a bigger community very week. What have you got who for? Who is following Brent? Remember, small community, small leaders. Big community demands for higher leadership. You should know this. Aren’t you the guy with all the answers? In fact, I don’t need to answer any of your questions, you are the expert, aren’t you?


  497. GregR permalink
    March 3, 2012 3:07 pm


    All you have to do is follow Brent H. He is the one with all the answers. If you don’t believe me just read his posts. He will show you the secrets to leadership.

  498. March 3, 2012 3:15 pm


    I am following Brent H. in his very logical and excellent explanation how the TEAM/LIFE scam is working. My question to you is: Why bother reading the information on this site? And even post comments? You really think you can convince the readers here to see your point of view? Or are the commenters hindering you in your “building your business” because prospects do not belief the LIFE lies anymore due to finding information on sites like this one?

    Sadly enough, I see you as a lost soul. But he, this website cannot help everyone!

    PS Maybe you should stop drinking so much (I am referring to the many “cheers” you write down here at every post!). Your thinking is apparently clouded by it.

  499. GregR permalink
    March 3, 2012 3:18 pm

    @ Speak Your Truth

    To be honest with you. I’ve seen more truth in the tabloids than what I’ve seen here. You somehow keep thinking that your posts along with others here will actually matter. I read your posts before I joined and nothing seemed consistent, it was actually same old, same old negative that you hear from people who lack results. Why would anyone want to even follow people who encourage others to be quitters? See, I’m only encouraged more and more to plug into things like LIFE when people like yourself decide to play the crab game and drag others down with them.

  500. Brent Hansen permalink
    March 3, 2012 3:29 pm


    I find it interesting how you judge me without even knowing me, you know nothing of who I am nor what I do. Do you think that you are truly qualified to determine what makes one a leader? And how does the size of the community become relevant in determining ones leadership capabilities? The greatest Leader of all time went about quietly doing good wherever He went. No fanfare, no applause, and no special treatment. What exactly is the “truth” you are going out and spreading Greg? Are you a missionary of some sorts?

    Not once have I claimed to have “all” the answers nor have I claimed to be an expert of any sort. As a matter of fact Greg, there is very little in this life that I have figured out for sure.
    I do know at the end of the day that there is a preponderance of evidence indicating that the business model you are engaged with is a losing proposition for most who are involved. You will either end up in the slim majority who are able to earn from the business, or you will pay a dear price discovering the reality of it.

    For one Greg, I don’t believe that it is necessary to “pay” to be trained as a leader, as a matter of fact the greatest leaders of all time were never paid a dime for their leadership. Leadership is simple to me, I only need to open the Bible and find hundreds of examples of true leadership that I could spend a lifetime trying to emulate.

    I am glad that you are engaged in what you deem a worthwhile cause, but so to are the former members of team who spread their experiences throughout this blog. You may argue with personalities Greg but you cannot dispute the personal experiences within this blog. Either these people here are telling the truth, or they are blatant liars. Wouldn’t it be odd if so many people gathered in one place to tell their story and all of them be liars?

    Why would I be here under my real name, offering my email and phone number to many who have come here if I believed that this blog is full of lies? Perhaps you think I am fool, but I really could care less. Unless you are willing to meet with me face to face as I am with you and discuss the matters and ideas shared here, you are simply blowing hot air. Unless you are willing to address the real questions and issues brought up here you are merely sharing your opinion.

    Although there are many opinions here that could be disputed, there are some cold, hard, facts at the core that neither you nor anyone before you has cared to address. For sake of saving myself from an ongoing debate with you about virtually nothing, I will offer you just as I have others, my personal email as I would like to continue this discussion in private.

    After 17 years in the industry, and building businesses on multiple continents, with people of many ethnic and cultural backgrounds, I do feel like my opinion and knowledge is worth something. If you care to take me up on it please feel free to email me at anytime. If not, lets just let it end at this, and you can keep doing what you are doing, just as I stated in my very first remark to you.

  501. Brent Hansen permalink
    March 3, 2012 3:31 pm

    Slim minority…not slim majority. See Greg I can’t even type right.

  502. March 3, 2012 3:31 pm


    This site DOES matter, at least for NEW prospects who still can think critically. Here is the link, if you do not believe me the post I wrote after finding out I was almost tricked into a huge scam.

    After that I have seen comments of many people, and they all declined the invitation. What do you think will happen if there will not be a new wave of “paying victims” entering the LIFE organization? You should look how this will affect YOUR business.

    This site will continue as a counterweight to the propaganda you and the cult you belong to are spreading.

  503. Freedomhaha permalink
    March 3, 2012 3:39 pm

    Greg- I don’t think this posts matter, I KNOW THESE POSTS MATTER!! After reading this site (mostly Brent H’s comp plan analysis) I have gotten my mind, money, and family back. Maybe to your brainwashed mind its no big deal, but to me it really means something.

    “See Brent, unlike you, we get to got out on the field to spread truth and help those who want to be helped.”
    Just curious what you mean by “help”. Are you aware that 95% of your team loses money at all time regardless of how big your team is? I guess if you feel morally okay with that I can’t help you.

    I used to say the same garbage you did when I was in the cult. Looking back at it I shudder thinking about who I was. Greg, the best part is the stuff you are looking for and say is true, but what you are missing is the fact that it can’t be accomplished with TEAM/LIEf.

  504. GregR permalink
    March 3, 2012 3:57 pm


    Go for it, i’ll be cheering for you. Follow logic, in fact, logic tells us that everyone should be doing pretty good, pretty good since we are in America. Not so much. You are probably doing the right thing, following the one with all the questions and who seems to have all the answers. As for us in LIFE, we’ll focus in results.

    It’s been fun, but I must go serve in the LIFE field where leaders actually lead by example.


  505. Mike Collins permalink
    March 3, 2012 4:23 pm

    Greg is just another putz sent here to run interference (see Troy Dooly) and has no intention of addressing facts.

    Here is a fact for you Greg: tell me how many people are in your organization and I will tell you how many of them are making any money off this ridiculous business model.


  506. Freedomhaha permalink
    March 3, 2012 5:07 pm

    Greg- The result I chose to focus on was that 95% of my TEAM was loosing money (including myself). There you go, stone cold results. No matter what kind of leader I could have became I would still have cost people lots and lots of money.

  507. March 3, 2012 5:26 pm


    You should read better. I am not following Brent H, but his logical financial explanation of the scam. I am not like you who does completely the opposite: you just follow a leader WITHOUT even considering the financial consequences, because in your eyes that is “logical” nonsense.

    So, how DO you define results if they are not based on logical mathematical calculations? And how do you lead by example? Are you becoming the same liar as the “great leader” OW?

    You tell so much about yourself in the following sentence

    “It’s been fun, but I must go serve in the LIFE field where leaders actually lead by example.” Why do you choose the word “must”, I thought you were working for LIFE voluntary because of all the opportunities it is giving you. This Freudian slip shows that at least subconsciously you clearly know that you are just another prisoner of the LIFE system.

    And apparently you need the drinks to break free from it.

  508. outsider permalink
    March 3, 2012 6:36 pm

    You addressed me with some nonsense, yet fail to address the point. You know that’s what folks expect from a cult member/victim, right?

    And you do know that my point was that your posts here continue to support the notion that LIFE is a cult, right?

  509. Speak Your Truth permalink
    March 3, 2012 7:58 pm


    This too will be my last comments to you. I do not believe you are here for any honest reasons, nor do you want to address the real issues or answer questions. You seem to like to criticize others though.

    I pity you Greg, it is very obvious to me you are incapable of being ‘honest’, especially with yourself, so no need to tell me you are. If you cannot be honest with yourself, then you cannot be honest with others. It is too bad you cannot see how your posts are the same old repeated for decades rhetoric, and is a perfect display of how powerful and effective coercive persuasion and undue influence is. If you haven’t figured out we were a part of the same environment and have repeated the same rhetoric.

    “A coercive persuasion program is a behavioral change technology applied to cause the “learning” and “adoption” of a set of behaviors or an ideology under certain conditions.”” Can be even MORE effective than pain, torture, drugs, and use of physical force and legal threats.”

    What is sad is it appears you have allowed those who you ‘follow’ to think for you. That does not make you a ‘leader’ Greg; it makes you a blind ‘follower’. So for you to come here and pass judgment on others when you know nothing of others leadership, haven’t displayed any yourself, and try and school others on what ‘leadership’ is; just shows your lack of leadership.

    What stands out the most here Greg is you obviously are listening to CDs and the leaders are thinking for you. Imo, that is displayed perfectly in your posts, and is a sad waste of your own creativity and autonomy. I could not find an original thought and I believe you are in complete denial of the facts.

    You also display a defiant child like attitude and remind me of someone putting their hands over their ears to avoid the truth. I am surprised your comments aren’t being moderated; you appear to want to derail and distract, and or just desperately want to be heard but have said nothing or substance. That would be a poor example of ‘leadership’; you claim to know so much about.

    You continually refuse to address the issue of you breaching the LIef P&P, therefore that tells me you have no ethics or any respect for contract law. Your statement and cocky attitude towards ‘logic’ is simply foolish, do you think people should stop using logic?

    Do you believe reading all those ‘tabloids’, is a mark of leadership on your part, or was that just another childish, argumentative statement?

    What should be obvious and is very misleading is how Orrin and his ‘followers’ repeat the IAB ‘award’ as if he has been ‘selected’ for the TOP leader in the world; when in fact the award is only for his BLOG. Nor is the ‘selection’ process transparent. We also know from experience how everyone ‘votes’ for all the awards, you could see this fact where he has ‘reminded’ the ‘followers’ to vote for the ‘leadership guru’ award on twitter.

    You say:” Why would anyone want to even follow people who encourage others to be quitters?”

    Do you sincerely belief this and if not you are lying to yourself. It is also another example of coercive persuasion and undue influence at work without any independent thinking on your part? That is the same rhetoric that has been used for almost 2 decades to manipulate the ‘followers’ to blame themselves if they quit and to criticize the critics.

    Do you really believe it is a bad thing to be or tell people to be a ‘quitter or would you tell others to continue to do what their doing even if it is harmful to them?’

    What about to ‘quit’ using and selling drugs, robbing people, driving drunk, following cult leaders, participating in criminal activity and gangs, perversions, prostitution, cheating on a spouse, stealing, cheating, and lying etc..? ‘Quit’ being a hypocrite. Or how about the Apostles who gave up their lives (‘quit’ their old ways) to follow Jesus and in Apostle Paul’s case where he ‘quit’ being an active persecutor as a Pharisee? I could probably think of hundreds if not thousands of things to tell people to ‘quit’ that would be much better for them and all of humanity to ‘follow’. Like quit being greedy, using people for personal gain as many millions have been victims of with all the Pyramid Schemes. What about Bernie Madoff ‘s, Ponzi Scheme and on and on.

    So, telling people to be ‘quitters’ is not a bad thing as you believe and want others to blindly believe.

    If you are happy with your choices of participating in the Lief business then continue on. Then that tells us you are making a conscious choice in bringing others in to lose. That is not disputable, where the majority of whom you bring in will be guaranteed to fail and you are content with knowing that? What leadership principle is that?

    Again I suggest you find a website that is congruent with your choices and beliefs and that you won’t be blatantly breaching your legal obligation of ‘following’ the Lief P&P’s.

  510. No Team For Me permalink
    March 3, 2012 10:36 pm

    Greg R (aka annonymous Team/Life RT or PC) – you keep trying to make the assumption that just because Team is growing and has a following it must be good. According to that, Hitler, Jim Jones and al-quida are all growing too.

    More important than growth is the true principals and values and based trail of trash that Team has left behind, I’d say they are making a difference – just not the positive one they claim. Although there are 7,000 people who are now attending Team majors, there are probably hundreds of thousands of people they have taken advantage of to the tune of millions and millions of dollars. not counting the overwhelming percentage of the 7,000 that are probably still reporting a tax loss year after year from their business that is supposed to be a 2-5 year plan.

    Some results!

  511. Freedomhaha permalink
    March 4, 2012 10:39 am

    No Team For Me- Yeah, but that was only because they didn’t work hard! 😉 No one on this blog went go getter or power player! If we would have we would all be millionaires! Instead we are a bunch of worthless quitters.;)

  512. TruthSeeker permalink
    March 4, 2012 10:50 am

    @Freedomhaha, failure is always the fault of the distributor right? Couldn’t have nothing to do with the business model right? We all know if one guy can do it everyone can right?

    Here is a direct quote from a Monavie Distributor made just today. This comment is directed towards her upline “Blue Diamond” (not currently qualifying as such) veneer leader who was formerly associated with Team. I have removed the names to protect the innocent.

    “I would like to know what I did wrong. I worked the plan & for 5 years worked harder than ever to succeed but could not get the people under me to stick with it. I never gave up, I love Mona Vie!!! However I am broke now & in the last month had to go off my autoship after 5 years. Makes me very sad as I have never been a quitter! I do believe in time I will try again but will have to start over as everyone on both my legs has dropped off!”

    Isn’t it ironic that this distributor is taken full blame for her failure? And then the answer by the ever faithful and lying upline con artist.

    ” the economic climate over the last few years has been one of the toughest in my career. It’s hard for people to believe in a dream when they are living a nightmare. It’s also been hard for people to invest in themselves when they are losing their homes. Success is never permanent and failure is never final. I pray that you get back on your feet again and live the life of your dreams… either with Monavie or without it. Either way, you are not a quitter. Some times you have to take a step back before you take steps forward.”

    Doesn’t that sound like some sort of canned speech? Its the economy! You can do it! Get back on your feet again and yes, you too can live the life of your dreams.

    Why not address the facts of the compensation structure that are here on this blog? Why not tell people the truth that 97% will never be able to cover autoship? Why let this poor woman believe that it is somehow her fault? Why? Because they are all liars, thats why.

  513. das permalink
    March 4, 2012 11:51 am

    Greg R, you want names? Here is a list of people who know Orrin’s true character and the lies.

    Billy & Peggy Florence, Randy & Val Haugen, Don & Chris Freeze, Mark Crawford, Lance Smith, Chuck Goetschel, Matt & Cheryl Abraham, Pat Edwards, Dan Abraham, Greg Rau, Mike & Christie Raatz, John & Melanie Morgan, Matt Zimmerman, Mike and Carol Foos, Mike Jones, Tom Cullen, Rick Reed, Jeff & Barb Granger, Raquel Peters.

    There are many many more but these people supposedly had residual passive income with Team. Why would they leave if they were all job optional? These leaders are all just “quitters” eh?

    I believe they left because they know the truth about Orrin, Chris, Tim and the Team…and guess what…they got tired of living a lie.

  514. Freedomhaha permalink
    March 4, 2012 2:39 pm

    TruthSeeker- That can’t be true either because Chris Brady told me that this business grows even more in a bad economy. Try again with your “facts” and “truth”.

  515. Finally permalink
    March 4, 2012 5:33 pm

    Gang, the only reason Gregg r got on this site is cause Orrin is not in control of the people on here nor does he know what “evidence” people have kept. One of the things that drives O absolutely crazy is not knowing everything. Oh he can figure some of the players out but he has no way of knowing what all was said, texted, emailed, copied, save, recorded etc… Many of the former team saw what was going on and before they left they documented EVERYTHING. They kept registration forms with original sponsors that can prove what was done in the registration of MV, they kept emails, voice mails and text messages. Orrin has no way of knowing what his leaders said and did. Many of them may not have been very smart when doing things that could possibly end up hurting the team at some point. They believed their own press clippings and got full of themselves and treated people like less than human beings…. all for their own financial income and to have that sick sense of loyalty. Many of them want to look good in their up lines eyes and do anything to do it. Orrin needs someone to come on here and try to bait people into giving up specifics of what they have. Remember that until this site and some others started exposing team the only people taiking about team were one or two guys that had something against orrin or mlm’s. Now you have former inner circle people that were and are privy to info that was only talked about in closed meetings. They are also extremely smart people with insight and kept everything they thought they might need someday. The PC can bash a few but there are too many that were hurt personally. People that made it big and had it all stolen from them. I am not sure what the PC was thinking when they betrayed these people. The pc can only say that people have to make excuses for not making it so many tines……these folks actually made it. They signed profit sharing contracts under duress, which have bee illegally denied to them and a host of other things that will not look favorable on the PC on top of stealing their incomes and giving them to others cronies. I do not know how the PC sleeps at night because they know what they are doing and so do their wives. I have talked to enough people that are out of team and that had personal relationships with the pc to know that they have done evil things and are constantly blaming others and playing victims.

    Gregg is on assignment ……….and really really sad………….

  516. GregR permalink
    March 5, 2012 4:42 pm

    @Mike Collins

    You’d like to know how many in my organization? Well, less than needed for PC and more than in this blog. Hope it helps.

    @everyone else

    As far as the names of the people who quit. That’s too bad for them. See, the thing is that many people are ready for change. Perhaps they need to see what LIFE offers now.


  517. das permalink
    March 5, 2012 5:27 pm

    Greg R. go ahead and con your friends into this recruiting scam claiming it will change their lives. It will in fact change their lives. They will wake up someday broke and homeless, but they will be able to look at it as a blessing since they are surrounded by such wonderful friends on Team. I don’t miss my phony so called “friends” on Team.

    We’ll leave the light on for you Greg…

  518. freedomhaha permalink
    March 6, 2012 5:55 am

    Greg- How many people in your down line are making a profit (keep in mind Greg that in real business profit= income- expenses so that check you got for $15 is far short of profit) ? If you can honestly address this question then maybe we can talk about “life changing material”.

    I read a great John Maxwell book recently that I got from the library, for FREE. It had awesome information that I can use to better my life. Did I mention it was FREE and Orrin didn’t make a dime off it!

    God bless!

  519. I QUIT (and glad I did) permalink
    March 6, 2012 6:34 am

    True to form Greg does what every teamunist does when asked a direct question. He ignores it completely or skirts around it by spewing rhetoric. Maybe someday he’ll be able to swallow his pride, admit he was suckered and join us in the fight for right. We’ll see. Cheers Greg.

  520. freedomhaha permalink
    March 6, 2012 7:22 am

    He has less than is needed for PC now, but if he keeps doing such a good job on here maybe he can get a special deal and reach PC like the Hawkins!! Keep working hard GregR!!

  521. Mike Collins permalink
    March 6, 2012 7:22 am

    GregR/orrin & company: thanks for the info but true to form its vague like every other answer you give to a pointed question.
    For example: your team member asks you “how much are YOU making in this thing called Lief?”

    Answer: “how much I’m making is not nearly as important as how much you can make”

    The challenge still stands: tell me how many people you have in your business and I will tell you how many of them aren’t even making $50 a month. If I’m wrong I’ll give you $1000 cash but if I’m right I get to publish my findings on YOUR Facebook wall. Email me for details if you care to put some action behind your mouth…

  522. GregR permalink
    March 13, 2012 3:48 pm

    @Mike Collins,

    Thank you for all the encouragement. See, unlike you I am not one that likes to put up a show. I prefer results. You seem to believe to be an all-around expert of LIFE even when you are not involved or are you? So I will just give you the honor you are obviously looking for. Your response exemplifies lack of experience in leadership. Go ahead and keep the $1000, I actually do quite well in my own endeavors and now LIFE. Why don’t you let others who agree with you in this blog post whatever number of size of team they would like to have and then you can guess what the income would be. Then if you are wrong you would give them the $1000 and that way you can accomplish 2 things, 1) You would feel good about putting LIFE down and 2) You can help those who say lost $$ recover $1000.
    I’m happy to be of help. I’m done with this blog, I’ll invest the time in serving more and more people.
    Happy LIFE everyone.
    See you at the top! Oh wait, forgot you all quit.

  523. Burned Out With Mona Vie permalink
    March 14, 2012 2:51 am

    It took me a while to see the real truth about the MLM game and get out of it, also just how “valuable” all the junk they tell you that you “must have to be successful” really is in the real world.

    So for the benefit of the ones who are not sure about the wonders of MLM and are checking it out here is the epitaph as to where all the tools eventually go after your down line crashes (They all do sooner or later) and you wake up and smell the coffee (Hopefully not too broke, just allot wiser and somewhat ashamed how much money and time you wasted).

    Option One: Sold on e-bay to the folks less informed that you are so you can at least get a small part of your “Investment in your future” back, I did that until realized I was no better than the ring leaders promoting that crap.

    Option Two: The best one of all, sent out with the trash to the landfill so they can’t hurt anyone anymore. It feels great to toss them out by the way. 🙂

  524. I QUIT (and glad I did) permalink
    March 14, 2012 6:06 am

    Bye Greg. Typical… hit em with the hard stuff and they run away with their tail between their legs. Way to go Mike!

  525. Mike Collins permalink
    March 14, 2012 7:03 am

    Allow me to translate what GregR just said:

    I have very few people on my team and none of them are making any money so I have to say a bunch of stuff in an attempt to deflect away from your challenge Mike. Now I’m going to pretend I’m indignant and that I’m done with you losers.

    Don’t feel bad that you couldn’t take me up on my challenge greggy, Orrin wouldn’t either.

  526. No Team For Me permalink
    March 14, 2012 7:17 am

    It was put up or shut up time for GregR and he chose to shut up, duck his tail between his legs and run. Just like most LIFERs. They can’t ever stand up to the questions so they either deflect or run……or both.

  527. Speak Your Truth permalink
    March 14, 2012 8:35 am

    No experience neccessary in any endeavor; the numbers speak for themselves. It really is a shame they can’t be honest and address… the ‘Main thing’… the ‘Big Rock’… Thee reason why everone gets started to begin with…(the numbers)..Show me the money.

    Numbers don’t LIE.

    It is crystal clear to all the free critical thinking readers when the lieFers get challenged by their own ‘numbers’ and how telling it is; how hard they try to avoid anything that would be incriminating.

    Mike you struck their rawest emotional nerve and it shows by the defensiveness that Greg is trying to ‘protect’ himself from facing the damning evidence.

    And they wonder why people do not trust them?

    “When a man assumes a public trust he should consider himself a public property.”~
    Thomas Jefferson

    From experience and IMO, the worst abuse they violate is the breach in trust and the biggest mistake we made was to trust them and their ‘word’, over ourselves.

    I also never fully understood the comp plan or real numbers; big mistake. The attrition rate should have been enough.

    Thanks to both you.. Mike and Brent for clearly showing the ‘numbers’ to the Lief comp plan, so others can make an informed unemotional decision! 🙂

  528. Curious permalink
    March 15, 2012 8:13 am

    Joined as a customer of LIFE and love it so far. The AGO series and the LLR series are a great investment. I plan on trying the LIFE one next month. I had been looking for some sort of leadership system for a while and none of the ones I saw before was as complete a series as LIFE has. Too bad you all don’t see the value.

  529. TruthSeeker permalink
    March 15, 2012 10:54 am

    Curious, too bad you don’t see the scam.

  530. Speak Your Truth permalink
    March 15, 2012 11:50 am


    It never ceases to amaze me how people just ‘happen’ upon this site to tell us how great their opinion is on the ‘leadership’ and think we fall for and then skip right over the compelling evidence that screems otherwise. As if we are so naive and will fall for their biased, game they all play…the la la land, everything is so great, never seen such an amazing MLM money changing hands ‘leadership’ training in all the history of the world, no one, not one person can ‘duplicate’ what we have done and ‘you too will be a millionaire’, gig. Unbelievable how gullible we all were who fell for the scam.

    After you do a google search, you could find there is already many other “Life” training, coaching etc… out there long before the Team “lief” training changed their name to Life. That is probably where they stole their ‘name’ from.

    Regardless, we all know why they ‘changed’ the name to Lief because they needed to ‘hide’ from the truth and don’t want anyone knowing they are NOT a ‘new’ company that is revolutionizing the ‘leadership’ industry and the best in the World.

    They are still running on the same ole.. has been; with Amway,Quixtar, MonaVie, Team of Destiny, Team, and current Team LieF ‘training’ (until everyone figures that one out), ‘mentoring’, now it is ‘coaching’. They follow the ‘trendy’ words at the times, but operate with the same ole scam and deceptive game.

    Isn’t it Funny how evil they wanted others to believe Amway was/is;But now it seems that was their ‘schematic’ or is it; blue print for their comp plan. They now have created their comp plan and drive points up ‘their bonus’ chart just like they did in Amway?

    They think that is what is going to make their scam ‘work’? This is ‘their world class system’? Rather than give their labeled levels a ‘gem’ name they came up with different ones and not too creative; such as ‘student’ or ‘coordinator’

    The more they say they have changed, the more obvious..they remain the same.

  531. Mike Collins permalink
    March 16, 2012 4:35 am

    @ Curious: as long as you see the value in the Life program and you feel you are getting your moneys worth from the product I say, enjoy your purchase.

    If you decide to become more than a customer and try to make money with the MLM aspect of “Lief” then I would suggest you learn the numbers associated with the comp plan before you invest too much time or money into it.

  532. interested permalink
    March 16, 2012 7:30 am

    A word of warning to all readers…

    So my friend had a LIFE meeting at his place about 5 weeks ago. I left the meeting skeptical and took home the materials. Our two other friends signed up, one on the spot and the other a couple of days later. I did some research, including many of your posts. To make a long story short, I decided to just return the materials and not join. After all, you all said it was a scam. This week at our basketball game my buddies were talking about the CDs and the books they are reading. The seem pretty excited and their teams grew to at least 10 more people. I don’t know guys, but that all seems pretty nice to feel as excited as they do and to see progress in their group. Had I not payed any attention to these posts, I would have had already a team and also learned what they are learning.

    I called one of my friends last night to get more info and see if I can meet some of the people they are working with. You guys say it’s a scam but I see that the scam is where I work. Four years and no raise and the company executives take all the bonuses. They could care less if I go to the hospital or if I can’t afford my next meal, they just care about their bonuses.

    Maybe, this will work or maybe it won’t but at least I may have a shot.

  533. March 16, 2012 8:35 am

    @interested – My advice to you is to watch your budget and make sure that your income consistently exceeds your expenses each month you’re involved with LIFE.

  534. Speak Your Truth permalink
    March 16, 2012 10:11 am


    First off your story seems just a bit odd to me and quite frankly knowing what I know; I am just not that gullible, and sincerely question your motive by what you are saying. But hey that is just my opinion. And if you looking to fill your need or it is important for you to feel ‘excited’ then by all means that certainly would be the enviroment you are looking for, rock on.

    Did you ‘see’ that ‘they’ had “at least 10 more on their team” or are you just taking their ‘word’ for it?

    Interested says: “Four years and no raise and the company executives take all the bonuses. They could care less if I go to the hospital or if I can’t afford my next meal, they just care about their bonuses.”

    Very ironic, interested, that has almost been exactly our experience with the Team, with a slight difference. What we found was they (orrin & PC) didn’t ‘careless’ if we went to the hospital, and worse than your job (your scam) lol..we not only did we… not get a raise, our income went from double digget (to the left of the comma, in income) it went backwards to about 500 bucks (almost overnight) before they stole the rest of it and our teams completely; and that was after almost a decade and a half of working our guts out! So, therefore we can concluded the same thing “company executive (PC) take all the bonuses” and that orrin & the pc only cared about ‘their bonuses.’ See the comp plan.

    Good luck with your decisions; the choice has always been yours; but don’t say you weren’t warned.

  535. switch permalink
    March 16, 2012 11:00 am

    “First off your story seems just a bit odd to me…”

    Totally agree.

  536. Speak Your Truth permalink
    March 16, 2012 11:31 am


    Uh huh..and even more odd is how ‘excited’ some will get from “at least 10 people” but then it’s not their fault when they don’t have a clue. If they only knew, it takes many THOUSANDS to build and replace and that is just to ‘break even’ and I am not sure what getting a ‘raise’ means. You are not an ’employee’ who gets ‘raises.’ It takes many hundreds if not thousands to increase your income in the scam; you don’t just ‘get a raise.’

  537. Speak Your Truth permalink
    March 16, 2012 12:16 pm


    I should clarify,”but then it’s not their fault when they don’t have a clue.”

    I am refering to the uninformed only.

    That is IF “interesed” isn’t the PC or another minion, which only “interested” and who ever “interested” may have told; knows who he/she is. They may not be clueless at all. 🙂

  538. switch permalink
    March 16, 2012 12:38 pm

    Again, Speak…..I totally agree.


  539. Vogel permalink
    March 16, 2012 12:40 pm

    Interested said: “This week at our basketball game my buddies were talking about the CDs and the books they are reading. The seem pretty excited and their teams grew to at least 10 more people. I don’t know guys, but that all seems pretty nice to feel as excited as they do and to see progress in their group.”

    Feigned enthusiasm is what people resort to as means of hyping the scam because they can’t use any objective quantifiable facts to convince people to join. If you are moved by your friends’ enthusiasm despite the lack of substance, go for it. You’ve been duly warned.

    “Had I not payed any attention to these posts, I would have had already a team and also learned what they are learning.”

    They are learning how to run a scam. If you want to learn how to do that, there are better places than LIEf to do it.

    “You guys say it’s a scam but I see that the scam is where I work. Four years and no raise and the company executives take all the bonuses. They could care less if I go to the hospital or if I can’t afford my next meal, they just care about their bonuses.”

    This is where you stop sounding like an objective consumer and start sounding more like a mole/shill/troll. LIEf is unquestionably a scam; the place you work may be a scam too, but that has no bearing on the scamminess of LIEf. You seem to be trying to draw some sort of false equivalency that everything in the world is a scam, therefore, why not join LIEf. That’s a bad argument.

    If you think that the company that you allegedly work for is giving you fewer rewards than you deserve, and if you think you can do better elsewhere, then find a new job. Given that you’ve stayed at the same thankless job without getting a raise for 4 years suggests that either it’s a tightfisted company or that you didn’t deserve a raise. If you think you’re being underpaid, shop around and go work for a company that will reward you at a level commensurate with what you think you deserve, and if you can’t do that, then you should probably hush up and be thankful that someone is still employing you after 4 years of mediocre performance.

    “Maybe, this will work or maybe it won’t but at least I may have a shot.”

    That could be the tag line for a lottery ticket advertisement. We’re talking about building a business not rolling the dice on a high-risk, low-reward gamble.

  540. No Team For Me permalink
    March 16, 2012 2:46 pm

    Interested (aka another RT troll) – the difference is that you don’t have to pay $500 a month for the right to go to your job. At your job you actually earn a paycheck.

    Also, you better watch out – you mentioned that you talked to your buddies at basketball. Once the PC members hear about this – Yikes! You should not have time to be going to basketball if you are showing the plan 15-20 times per month, going to the Tuesday night opens every week, the monthly seminar, men’s leadership, making calls, listening to 2-3 CD’s per day and reading your book. How dare you play basketball with people who are not part of the cult!! 🙂

  541. rickdg permalink
    March 17, 2012 10:46 am

    Curious & Interested & your brother Stupid – c’mon
    These two names are coming from the same brainstorming session. They can’t even be creative enough when planning to influence Amthrax readers, to come up with more original names.The scare tactics from Drooly and Lawyer dude didn’t work. So now, it’s – let’s write posts on Amthrax where we describe how someone researching on the net finds Amthrax and decides to not join. Only later to be upset with themselves because they are missing out on all of the money making opportunities. Who’s next – Upset?

  542. Speak Your Truth permalink
    March 17, 2012 6:59 pm


    Lmao! I agree. It’s a shame they are so predictable and apparently need someone to blame.
    Since they insist on the followers must believe their negative bashing; the ‘critics are the death gargle of a non-achiever,’ losers, haters, have no ‘leadership’, are losing in life, negative, and whatever other derogatory name they like to use; in hopes they will control everyone’s eye balls from seeing the truth.

    Do they really think people don’t recognize their dirty games being played ? How quickly they forget. That must be frustrating for them that people know every dirty trick they use and don’t just fall blindly under their spell; seems they all use the same tricks, from their slimy MLM handbook.

    If they just practiced some real ethics, Do the right thing, be honest or just practice what they preach, perhaps apply the knowledge from the bible they preach out of, or how about the books they begin to solve some of their issues. Like try admitting the truth rather than sweep it under the rug, avoid, distract, divert whatever it takes but don’t solve the root problem. But then no one would probably show up on Amthrax if they did something as truthful and noble as that.Then who would they have to practice their bag of tricks on?

    They will not solve their problems at the same level of thinking they created them at. Honesty has always the best policy and lesson repeated until lesson learned. And they call themselves guru’s. 🙂

  543. Freedomhaha permalink
    March 18, 2012 7:26 am

    Interested- Your rhetoric sticks out like a sore thumb. By my best guess that is about 10-15 CD’s worth of knowledge that you are spewing there. Have fun and don’t say that we didn’t warn you. The best part about Amthrax is that we will be here to help get you back on your feet when you see the light!

  544. henry permalink
    March 20, 2012 5:02 pm

    This blog says “The accuracy, completeness, veracity, honesty, exactitude, factuality and politeness of comments are not guaranteed” – Wow… you could not be more accurate. Way to go Amthrax and followers (if you can be called that) – a blog that has nothing but opinions, lies and lacks accuracy and factuality…. I’ll stick with good information from LIFE. So far, I’ve heard nothing that is anywhere as negative and offensive as many of your posts

  545. March 22, 2012 3:04 pm

    I personally was involved with TEAM and was also involved in the LIFE business up until a little over a month ago. I will say that if between you and your up line you get MANY people under you, there is some money that can be made. However, doing this is not an easy task. It takes a very large amount of others under you for you to actually make a decent, steady income. An acquaintance of mine had, for the lack of a better term, suckered me into this. Needless to say, it can get expensive rather quickly in this “business”. You MUST spend a certain amount of money every month just to qualify to stay active. Also, after being in the business for several months, you must get at least one customer under you in order to stay active. The customer would be one who buys CD’s/ books every month but is not into the business. This can be another very difficult thing to do, because most people do not want to spend $50-60 a month on cd’s and books. Certainly not a business for those who do not have much money to start with, as it will drain you financially rather quickly. I know that no doubt someone will comment that I do not know quite what I’m talking about, but the truth is I do know quite a bit about this, having been involved in it myself. In some ways, it can be just another money racket, similar to many of the other “businesses” that Orrin Woodward and Chris Brady have been involved with in the past.

  546. switch permalink
    March 23, 2012 8:24 am

    Seriously Henry?……I think you and Greg R. sound a lot alike.

    Gonna step in this yard, maybe you should come clean? Just a thought.

    *Pass me a shot of “active blend”, hank….. oh wait, don’t see a fancy sticker on your fancy ride anymore.

  547. freedomhaha permalink
    March 23, 2012 9:50 am

    Henry- Do you think the court documents from TEAM PC’s and RT’s are “opinions”? Also, I would love for you to answer one question that no one has answered yet: What percentage of your downline is making money? When you can answer those two questions then maybe we can discuss something else.

    Also, because I’m still so upset about TEAM (read:scam) you better watch what you are saying because TEAM has really hurt a lot of people. I wouldn’t go waving your “correct information” BS around here where it has destroyed so many lives.


  548. I don't quit permalink
    March 27, 2012 7:09 am

    @mystical woodcrafters

    Your comments are typical of people who do not know how a business works. It does take capital to run a business until you get it going, I don’t care what kind of business it is. I have friends who have businesses and invested in those businesses thousands and thousands of $$ for equipment, tools, advertising, etc… it took years for most of them to break even. If someone joins or starts any business and quits after a couple of months then it’s likely that there will never be a profit….that’s just how businesses work.


    What’s your point? I work for a very successful (in fact a multi-million $$) company which has been in the courts almost every year. The fact is that when people or a company is achieving success there are always people/companies who are looking for an easy way to make $$ of that success… Tell me of a successful company or person and there will be records in court… that’s just the greedy world we live in.

    Also, are you threatening people who don’t agree with you (you said in your last post to henry…. “you better watch out”…. classy… this proves you know nothing about leadership. Again, not much is expected of those who encourage quitting and a negative environment. Way to go!

  549. I QUIT (and glad I did) permalink
    March 28, 2012 4:19 am

    @ IDQ- You should add a set of parenthesis behind your handle with “and I lose lots of money” between them.

  550. switch permalink
    March 28, 2012 10:49 am

    I don’t quit-
    His point is, that the Team’s records/documents ARE NOT OPINIONS!!!! Did you not read it correctly or was that the new LIEf education getting in your way????

    Another one for ya folks that’s having a hard time coming clean……

  551. Freedomhaha permalink
    March 28, 2012 7:18 pm

    IDQ- You missed the entire point of my comment. Comparing companies that are in court and individuals that are making lifestyle claims are totally different. My point is that how can you listen to these men and women on stage that are doing the opposite in their person lives? Cullens, Darkangelos, ect. filed for bankruptcy at the same time they were praised on stage for financial principals. That is a fact.

    Also, what percentage of your downline is making money? I see you forgot to answer that…

  552. freedomhaha permalink
    March 29, 2012 6:38 am

    I don’t quit- I will address your comment about my “threat” which made me laugh. No, I would never hurt anyone and that was far from a “threat”. What is not a laughing matter is the devastation that you are now actively participating in through TEAM/LIEf. You are tearing apart lives, and families and I (we) are dedicated to stopping it! I don’t want another person to be treated the way I was through the TEAM scam. There you go, that is my threat, I will never quit working to stop TEAM. I don’t encourage people to quit, but I do encourage people to leave cults. My life has gotten dramatically better since I have quit TEAM!

    In regard to my lack of leadership knowledge that also is untrue. I serve in three leadership positions (coaching, small business start up, and church) successfully. During my time on TEAM my performance suffered dramatically in all three of those positions. Since leaving I have improved in all three roles. Also, why are you reading critics? After all a statue has never been erected to a critic. Except for:

    Winston Churchill: Critical of Nazi Germany
    Harriet Tubman: Critical of slavery
    Mother Theresa: Critical of poverty

    The list goes on and on. I am a critic of the TEAM/LIEf cult and very proud of it. God bless IDC as I hope you find the truth out about TEAM. When you do we will all be here for you, like a real community.

  553. Speak Your Truth permalink
    March 29, 2012 1:58 pm

    mystical woodcrafters(jtm2957) ~

    You say: “I know that no doubt someone will comment that I do not know quite what I’m talking about, but the truth is I do know quite a bit about this, having been involved in it myself.”

    You pegged that right! Don’t fall for the guilt trips and all knowing, authority from the liefers.

    From my experience and still holds true that so many LIEfers claim ‘authority’ without knowing anyone on here personally, what knowledge they have about business or anything for that matter or someone like yourself (they claim authority on many subjective issues) they want to appear they have knowledge over all and try and lay the guilt trips that simply won’t work on this blog…lol.Those Liefers are pretty predictable, aren’t they? Way to go! 🙂

    It is always music to our ears when people make their own choices and come to their own conclusions, and free themselves from the bondage. Sadly, from my experience the ‘flock’ live their lives through the PC eyes and lives (mocking their every word) rather than their own (because of the designed environment which strips others of their autonomy…how sad and regretful that we and others cheated ourselves by the brainwashing we stifled our own creativity and stuffing the truth… True freedom comes in the mind and heart when you wake up to live your own life again and you realize that no one can live someone else’s life for them, we were born to live our own and make our decisions nor does anyone desire to be a robot. Thanks for sharing and stick to your guns.


    Great Post!!! Very interesting but typical how the team Liefers ‘business’ are always like every other business, only to serve their agenda and right up to the moment they need to twist it, then out of the other side of their mouth, they are not like any other business, they are ‘different’.

    IMO and experience they are ‘different’ in many ways from a legitimate business but just ‘like’ all the other scammers and fraudsters. Double standards, one-liner ‘leadership’, undue influence/thought reform and deception are intricate parts to making it ‘work’ and of course you need those who fall for it’. 🙂

  554. Speak Your Truth permalink
    March 29, 2012 2:13 pm


    I would serve humanity or encourage anyone to ‘quit’ anything that was harmful to their mind, body, and soul,and stips others of their autonomy. And imo and from my experience, cults and the team dictatorship and evironment are harmful to all.

  555. Speak Your Truth permalink
    March 29, 2012 3:11 pm

    mystical woodcrafters(jtm2957) ~

    I felt this read wrong, so I corrected it in hopes it reads cleare, sorry bout that. 🙂

    “From my experience and still holds true that so many LIEfers claim ‘authority’; without knowing anyone on here personally, or what knowledge they have about business or anything for that matter, including someone like yourself (they try and claim authority on many subjective issues, like what ‘success’ is etc.) they want to appear they have knowledge over all and try and lay the guilt trips; that simply won’t work on this blog”…

  556. Freedomhaha permalink
    March 29, 2012 4:10 pm

    Great follow up Speak. Where did IDC go?

  557. I QUIT (and glad I did) permalink
    March 30, 2012 4:09 am

    IDQ is just another example of drive by rhetoric. Blah blah blah. SSDD. The PC need to put out some fresh material on their CDs so the teamunists can have new comebacks to spew. (or parrot). I’ll leave it up to the reader to choose which verb is preferred.
    They need the material since they all feel the need to completely ignore their own P&Ps. (At their own peril)

  558. March 30, 2012 6:20 am

    @I don’t quit
    Why are you in violation of TEAM’s P&P? Are you not expressly prohibited by TEAM from making comments online or participating in blogs such as this one? Further, without your full names?

    Obviously you are not displaying worthwhile leadership character. Your actions are tantamount to you being just another drive-by TEAMmunist troll hypocrite. Else prove otherwise.

  559. March 30, 2012 6:21 am

    Thinking about it this is actually very interesting. Why, in this land of the free would an outfit like TEAM, violate it’s members constitutionally guaranteed right and freedom of expression, by prohibiting them from blogs participation such as this one, freely of their own accord and choice? And TEAMmunists are just ok with this? Am I missing something here or do we all live in the same country, land of the free?

  560. Speak Your Truth permalink
    March 30, 2012 7:33 am


    Excellent post! Either no one reads their own P&P’s as I Quit says (with the ‘leaders’ help to ignore them), or they are a RT or PC commenting and it must not pertain to them? Who in their right mind would sign this, otherwise?

    Based on experience and my opinion, I highly doubt any of the ‘followers’ read it or know just how trapped, controlled, unconscionable, and unconstitutional, their P&P’s appear. But of course if you listen to Troy, their P&P’s are great (paraphrased). Wonder if there is a monetary cause for Troy to claim such a thing?

    Imo, it seems very hypocritical and just another double standard in action, what a shame how typical that is. They are supposedly all about Liberty and Freedom, taking the country back to what it was founded on; which they continually claim they stand for?

    There seems to be an obvious disconnect here; their P&P’s speaks for itself.

  561. Former Round Table permalink
    March 30, 2012 9:00 am

    My guess is that most Team/Life people have NOT read any of the documents they signed and agreed upon. Two months ago, a big cheese in Team/LIFE called us looking for work, because he wasn’t making nearly as much with Team as he used to make. However, he admitted he had not read any of the current documents and did not know what was in them. We suggested he read the documents carefully as it does not make sense to continue building a business when you will never have any control.

    Two weeks later, he called a good friend of ours, another former Team member, and asked him about finding work. He admitted to that person that he had now read the documents, but was sticking with Orrin because he believes in the cause.

    What are these people drinking? This guy used to be a high-level executive at a large corporation! It’s one thing to stay in when you don’t know any better, but once you see it in black and white…

    BTW, there is no work here for anyone still associated with Team and/or Life. We will never willingly do business with anyone who chooses to remain after learning the truth. In my book, you are as scummy as Orrin.

  562. March 30, 2012 9:26 am

    @Former Round Table said
    “BTW, there is no work here for anyone still associated with Team and/or Life. We will never willingly do business with anyone who chooses to remain after learning the truth. In my book, you are as scummy as Orrin.”

    That’s right! And take that o-dubya, I Don’t Quit and others of the same ilk!

    And same goes here. After one learns the truth and decides on continued mlm participation he or she now morphs into one of the scummers. That’s why I never utter the words good luck to wish success to a self-confessed MLMer. I just don’t. Their MLM “success” i.e. conning the multitudes, is propagated upon people who hurt. Instead I wish them success in doing the right thing after finding the truth – quit mlm, and get others to wake up and quit it! There’s much else to do in this world than being a pretend mlm “business owner” con artist.

  563. TruthSeeker permalink
    March 30, 2012 10:57 am

    Does anyone have access to or the ability to provide information as to why our “best-selling author” will be in Salt Lake City, Utah on Wednesday April 11? Aren’t their cheezy open meetings on Tuesdays? I was considering showing up and heckling him from the audience, but I don’t have any information, just heard something in the wind. HELP???

  564. March 30, 2012 2:35 pm

    I Don’t Quit is drive-by hurling lots of those pretend MLM “industry” accursed words of quiting and negative environment.

    IDQ you are not telling anybody here anything new, we know very well how this environment is extremely negative to scammers, including blind participators, such as your good self.
    There’s absolutely nothing wrong with encouraging people to quit harmful scams and cults. Once again, there’s absolutely nothing wrong with encouraging MLM cult adherents to start thinking again.

    Freedomhaha I encourage you and others to continue in this endeavor. That is solid leadership, and it is especially needed by the many that are still bound in the bosoms of this pernicious, atrocious ilk and sadly they know not. Contrary to the devious MLM wide pseudo rallying cry lie to “take back the country” the only thing MLM cult adherents need to take back is their brains and critical thinking.

    FYI IDQ it follows therefore, “Reading the truths expounded in this blog is harmful to any & all cult induced mind fog and continued participation thereof.”

    Consider this a courtesy PSA

  565. Finally permalink
    March 30, 2012 8:01 pm

    Amen Former RT. I think I can deduce whom you are talking about. It was suggested by another low Liefer in that persons business that he was actually looking for work so that he could sign the corporate people up on system, customers if Lief. It is funny cuz they can’t even admit that they have to go back to work after many many yrs in the business. What is sad is that the downline guy actuality believed that the former triple did not need to work after all of those years in the business……….Like you said “What are they drinking” LOL
    They are pathetic in their lies and half truths and especially their twisting of the facts…….I will not associate with those still in team only because they are a negative influence and there are the ones that know what they are doing and continue to do it. I have no use for them doing what they are doing without any regard to those that they are hurting

  566. No Team For Me permalink
    March 30, 2012 9:04 pm

    Truthseeker – What I’d give to be there and see you heckle them. I really wish you would. Someone needs to be bold enough to challenge them in front of their flock to open the eyes of so many people who have no clue.

    Ask them about the P & P. ask them about the bankruptcies. ask them about all the leaders that left. ask them about how Hawkins really went PC.

    Man, how I’d love to see that.

    I really think we all need to band together sometime and show up at one of their functions and truly try to make a difference in opening some people up to the truth.

  567. March 31, 2012 9:16 am

    Thank you. I know and trust we are all doing a great job exposing for all and sundry to see, these vile con artists and the pestilence that is their con game.

  568. Finally permalink
    April 1, 2012 4:02 am

    Orrrin bragging about an MLM guy analyzing his P&P??????? Really??? He is sorry, if he truly wanted credibility he would put it all out there for an unbiased legal firm that specializes in contracts to give their opinion, not one but 3 companies. If Orrin was really as confident about his contract as he claims he would have no problem doing that.

    As far as him reprimanding anyone……….When and if anyone got reprimanded it was a dog and pony show cuz someone made him look bad, not their behavior. It is stupid to think that a reprimand from someone that is corrupt would carry any weight. That is like the leader of a theft ring reprimanding one of his lieutenants for stealing something that the leader didn’t approve first. He is claiming that he is the standard of good and that is the very core of the problem with team, Orrin. They all bow down to him like he is diety and that is the problem……..he is not, not even close. He has his cronies that put him on a pedestal and worship him but outside of his mlm circle he has zero credibility as a leader.
    Tim Marks blogged about how much orrin changed his life, I wish Tim would give that kind of credit to God……Oh I know he throws that out there occasionally but I have never heard him defend God and Christianity the way he defends Orrin and God is attacked way more than orrin is………..

    We, the Ron Dey rule is exactly as you say. He had two massive legs, Radosa and Armandoi Quaer (not sure pod spelling on Armandos last name) He sat back and collected his residual and Orrin said nooooo wayyyyyyy. There are plenty of office people to back that up, I have spoken with a few. He did the same thing to Matt and Sarah Zimmerman.

    We all know o and his pc read the blog, they read this stuff and in their hearts they know its true because when they read it they know they have done it. They then go into attack mode, knowing full well they are spinning and lying, although they would not admit to that. We all know it to be true from first hand personal experience or talking with those that have experienced the things we have first hand……..So…either we are all lying about the same things over and over again and o never took anyones incomes and they are who they say they are or they are lying………You decide…….

    Here is my disclaimer……I am an American exercising my right to free speech in sharing first hand personal experiences or experiences of others that have shared with me their first hand experiences and things they have first hand knowledge of……….

    Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

    There, I hope I am covered…….. i know they have hired private investigators to find out who we all are and that Tim blogged something about Orrin knowing some embarrassing stuff about people that he might one day go public with…….Word to the wise……I personally know of some very damaging stuff that has not made this blog………And that is just what little ole me knows……I have spoken with others that know wayyyyyyy more…careful mr PC There are more of people that know a lot about the people that you defend and yourself than you know………but that is for another discussion…….

  569. Finally permalink
    April 1, 2012 1:18 pm

    Right on We………the thing of it is a lot would come out, not peoples stories as much as factual information about the team pay plan………emails that were possibly stolen form team accounts……and all of the thousands of text messages sent by team leaders that orrin has not clue of not to mention the voice mails left, and things said. He does and doesn’t know what his leaders are doing. For example, one top level leader used his mentor status with a family and recommended that they sell out their 401 K to invest in team. He said that if team is what they were going to do that would be their retirement and that they would no longer need a 401 K. Now i know the person is not a licensed financial consultant ….and so do they yet they took advantage of the relationship and gave professional advice on what to do with over 10 grand… is this illegal??? Probably and how many other team leaders did the same things. If it ever came to a public battle I know of 3 or 4 people that would come out and go to bat for the people that were taken advantage of……they have the proof…….how would that play out???? Not sure but it ain’t just one guy in Germany anymore it is former inner circle people that know it all collectively. 25 million was a lot to lose in a law suit but it did not touch their personal stuff………….that could happen I am told…………Only time will tell

  570. Death To Amthrax permalink
    April 30, 2012 4:33 am

    The inaccuracy of the calculations of how much a person has to pay to be a member of LIFE is grossly off. I can only assume that those who represent this blog and article are only out to ruin the reputation of TEAM and LIFE. You would be more effective it you had the actual facts and not misleading people into thinking that they will be required to pay $500 dollars a month. The integrity and competence of those who represent this blog is now in question. Let’s see if those “Editing Comments” will consider this Inflammatory or inaccurate and change it to reflect the opinions of those representing this blog. I have a feeling that this comment won’t even become visible. This site is a joke, and so is the person editing these comments!

  571. May 1, 2012 10:07 am

    The calculations were accurate at the time of the original posting for an all-in TEAM/MonaVie member.

  572. Former Round Table permalink
    May 1, 2012 10:34 am

    Dear Death,

    You are making me laugh! Haha! How much is a LIFE subscription package? $50/month for 4 CDs and 1 book. Then add the LLR subscription for another $50/month. Add the AGO series for $25/month. If you are a “builder” you also need the TEAM monthly CDs for…how much? $50/month? Oh yeah, you subscribe to the TEAM Business Center website for $15/month. Isn’t there also a cost to subscribe to the LIFE website? You and your spouse attend four open meetings each month for another $40. You both attend seminars each month for another $60. Throw in majors four times per year for $83/month for a couple. How much does that add up to? Right now we are at $363. Do you get the Team branded emails for $49.90/month? Doesn’t Team also have a Power Player subscription? How about the DVD of the month? And all the special packs–you know, the Finance Pack, Parenting Pack, the Top 50, etc. What about materials for prospects–you know, first night packs, brochures, follow-up materials.

    Seems to me, pal, that $500/month for a builder is kind of light. And by the way, we are NOT out to destroy the reputation of TEAM or LIFE. Orrin is doing a great job of that himself.

    Peace, bro.

  573. May 1, 2012 11:25 am

    Don’t forget that with the addition of the new Mental Fitness Challenge, you’ll be adding to the list that @Former Round Table just added.

  574. Freedomhaha permalink
    May 2, 2012 4:27 am

    Former RT- You didn’t even hit on buying new clothes to fit in, gas, fast food, and lodging! The acutal LIEf costs are almost a drop in the bucket compared to gas prices. My guess is that we won’t see “Death” back on here again which is a shame!

  575. Gordon Freeman permalink
    May 3, 2012 10:34 pm

    Leadership Package: $130
    Two Cases of Purple Juice: $250
    Leeching off of good-hearted people who just want to live their dreams: Priceless

    There are some things money can’t buy. For everything else, there’s PyramidScheme.

    (It took almost 700 comments for a joke like this to be made. For shame, Internet, for shame!)

  576. devils in the details permalink
    May 8, 2012 3:50 pm

    I just recently joined l.i.f.e I know, I know. I haven’t made it all the way through all the posts yet, I’m currently on CarlW’s comment from November 21st at 12:21. Unfortunately I didn’t find this site until after the fact. I did however find the Forbes magazine article about Orrin woodward. I asked my “mentor” ,who had courted me for two weeks while I listened to cds and “changed my thinking” why Orrin didn’t sue Forbes for libel. I never got an answer, rather misdirection about being a rascal and what not. Any way I am within my thirty days and would like to get my money back. I was told, have an email confirmation and paper agreement that says there is a 100% money back guarantee. However on the l.i.f.e site it says this: 1.2- Return of Inventory and Sales Aids by Members Upon Cancellation
    Upon cancellation of a Member’s Agreement, the Member may return Business Starter Kits, products and sales aids that he or she personally purchased from LIFE (purchases from other Members or third parties are not subject to refund) that are in Resalable (see Definition of “Resalable” below) condition and which have been purchased within one year prior to the date of cancellation. Subscription products are non-resalable items and therefore returns of these products fall under the 30 days return policy detailed in section 7.1. Upon receipt of a Resalable Business Starter Kit and/or Resalable products and sales aids, the Member will be reimbursed 90% of the net cost of the original purchase price(s). Neither shipping and handling charges incurred by a Member when the Business Starter Kit, products or sales aids were purchased, nor return shipping fees, will be refunded. If the purchases were made through a credit card, the refund will be credited back to the same account. If a Member was paid a commission based on a product(s) that he or she purchased, and such product(s) is subsequently returned for a refund, the commission that was paid based on that product purchase will be processed according to section 6.2.1.
    Products and Sales aids shall be deemed “resalable” if each of the following elements is satisfied: 1) they are unopened and unused; 2) packaging and labeling has not been altered or damaged; 3) they are in a condition such that it is a commercially reasonable practice within the trade to sell the merchandise at full price; 4) it is returned to LIFE within one year from the date of purchase. Any merchandise that is clearly identified at the time of sale as nonreturnable, discontinued, or as a seasonal item, shall not be resalable.

    Long story short as far as I can tell I’m out $150. Ya’ll wouldn’t happen to know a loop whole short of robbing my upline at threat of violence would you? I am not honestly considering that, it was a joke. If theres nothing I can do, then fine. I’ve learned a relatively inexpensive lesson compared to what I have read so far. If I can do something to recoup my loses, please advise. Anyone want to buy overpriced skeet targets?

  577. devils in the details permalink
    May 16, 2012 3:30 am

    Nevermind. Man I’m glad I’m out! So my “mentor” works at the same place I do, and for some reason doesn’t want to be my buddy anymore. It’s like Dr. Jekyl and Mr. Hyde. What happened to wanting to help people?

  578. Speak Your Truth permalink
    May 16, 2012 9:36 am

    devils in the details~

    I’m glad for you that you are ‘out’. It is sad as webelieved said but you are better off without the ‘users’ that say they are your “friends”.

    But hold them to their return policy and recoup as much as you can.They are hoping no one ‘follows through’ with that one!

    It is an absolute shame how they treat people but is obviously is only hurting them and their ‘reputation’ (because their ego can’t take someone getting out) and your testimony with your “Dr. Jekyl and Mr. Hyde”…would be the rule rather than the exception to the way people act and disregard others. Some “christians” and “leadership” MFC results that is? Its nothing but lip service… their actions show their true character and we already know they don’t practice what they preach! One thing is for sure…you are not alone, everyone I know that has either been forced out or quit have been treated the same or worse!

    Good Luck…it will be your (user) friends loss and your gain…who needs FAKE friends who only want to be your ‘friend’ for their personal financial gain?

  579. Brent Hansen permalink
    May 17, 2012 2:29 am

    devils in the details, Wow! I thought I had read about 90% of the P&P but that has got to be one of the lengthiest and most stringent return policies I have ever seen.

    Come on Orrin, give the guy his money back. You have enough breakage in your plan to cover a few returns, you have to be kidding me! It shouldn’t take an act of congress for someone to get a refund once they discover the truth.

    Another friend of mine emailed me a correspondence he had when his card was charged for the EBC once he had cancelled. Talk about cheezy….I would rather get a root canal than deal with these incompetent, selfish, greedy idiots.

  580. Speak Your Truth permalink
    May 17, 2012 5:55 am


    Excellent Points!

    I know of someone’s credit card being ‘charged’ for the EBC (I believe it was at least year) AFTER the low lifes forced them out!!!! Also know of another, they were ‘charging’ someone on our teams cc for the “legal fund” I believe a year later also!!

    So Readers beware, keep an eye on your charges, seems they keep the credit card information on file…. Was this incompentence or were they trying to pull a fast one? How long do they keep them on file?.. Who knows, they probably still have ours on file!

    Perhaps you know Brent, is it ‘legal’ to charge people automatically (autoship) for THEIR legal obligations (legal fund)?…If it isn’t illegal, it should be!!! Again, fleecing the ‘followers’ to pay their bills and pushing their responsiblity on them!!! BTW Wonder what orrin made with the 3 million dollar handout…I mean contingency ‘loan’..since it seems from a commenter on here said he was paying HIMSELF $500,000 per MONTH!! (that explains why he wasn’t paying the leaders who still had the numbers and earned it) and How much did he fleece the downline for the “legal fund”?…Would love to see the books cracked open! How much did they rake in on off that fund and how the money was distributed!! Wouldn’t he have had to report this to the IRS?

    The greed of these guys is astonishing!

    Perhaps he learned from and it is like the politicians and they can continue to collect money from the American people,.. legally, mind you …After they have suspended their campaign. Wth? Wonder who made that legal?

    Where are the ethics, morals and integrity?

    From my experience, the Team PC neither practice nor have none!

  581. May 17, 2012 8:16 am

    @Brent and @devil in the details – the return policy is very similar to other System businesses. They basically copied what they had back in Amway, Quixtar, and MonaVie. Like we’ve been saying for years now, it’s the same thing over and over again.

  582. devils in the details permalink
    May 17, 2012 10:11 am

    UPDATE: I have (by their estimation) $300 worth of upline material. On the one hand I want to “leverage” it to get my money back. On the other good kindling is so hard to come by….

  583. devils in the details permalink
    May 18, 2012 6:29 am

    So wouldnt you know it, customer disservice is giving me the run around. I’m currently playing email battle ship and I’m the only one taking hits! I tried calling the phone number first ofcourse and was greeted by a voicemail that referred me to the website. So I thought I will just press 0. I did and got a hold of the team side. I got transfered to the LIEf side talked to a disgrunteled employee (pry cause shes and employee and not a b type bull owner) who hung up on me shortly into the call. The LIEf solution to my constant phoning? Dont answer the phone. Must be nice to work at a place where the phone doesnt have to be answered. I am seriously debating a road trip to the office. It isnt so much about money anymore. Its the unashamed sleezyness of this pyramid.

  584. Former Round Table permalink
    May 18, 2012 8:45 am

    Tell them you will file a complaint with the Better Business Bureau and you will go to the local news station if you don’t get your money back.

  585. Former Round Table permalink
    May 18, 2012 8:47 am

    This all just goes to show that Orrin’s definition of the truth is VERY subjective…
    (World Class, my arse..)

  586. Maverick permalink
    May 21, 2012 8:15 am

    I emailed on of the posters on this site personally thanking them for their insight and would like to first thank them again for all to see because i am VERY grateful!

    Hello, I’m Noah, 22 years old. I did good in high school, had a bright future, then the economy basically shat on everything I could have hoped for as my backing (parents) lost their jobs and I struggled to find real work for 4-5 long years. (in that time i got my hands dirty mowing lawns, doing around the house work, building a loyal consumer base for my services through hard work and giving the best results i could manage, and have met many wonderful people and REAL mentors and I had a blast being a working man! Even bulked up and got some sun and learned to things, and hell got my first guitar and some very top notch lessons FOR FREE.) Sure things were tough, but I kept on going cause you can’t quit just cause life didn’t happen the way you planned. I got into school for music (maybe not the best choice financially, but I’m following my dream and will turn it into something I know it!) I even found a solid job at this restaurant, I’ve been working very hard, got my second raise, have a good standing with my superiors and co workers and I love them despite how “HORRIBLE” the TEAM and LIFE reps would make it seem. I still find time for friends, family, and fun. I still pay my bills, I’m still moving forward. I would have completely ruined all my chances and been basically stuck back in high school had I joined TEAM and LIFE. I urge everyone to stay the course and follow THEIR OWN DREAMS not what this scam of a company (TEAM & LIFE) would make you think is your dream.

    Let me tell you I really wanted to join this company, was ready to work hard at it and learn new skills, and I love helping people, and I would love to learn good leadership skills…but I look back and realize “REAL LIFE” taught me all those things. The people that gave me work and lessons in music and held me when I was down, and laughed with me when times were good and shared with me until i could support myself…THAT’S REAL… They didn’t tell me to go listen to a couple CD’s by people I’ve never met. They sat me down, worked with me personally for many years and put up with the angst of a young man trying to become a man and still encourage me and help me to this day. And i would gladly take a bullet for any of these wonderful people or trust them to hold a knife to my throat because they were there through everything and never gave me false hope and never lied to me.

    I hope and pray all the kool aid drinkers on this forum WAKE THE F*** UP!!!!

  587. Freedomhaha permalink
    May 21, 2012 10:23 am

    Maverick- Thanks for your post. I could not agree more my man.

  588. Maverick permalink
    May 21, 2012 10:53 am

    I try. I did almost get sucked in. The thought of being able to single handedly pull my family out of the poverty it’s in, help improve their relationships with each other (especially between by parents) and learn how to better handle myself in life sounded SO GOOD. I wanted so badly to have more money so I could make it so my folks can retire and still have “enough” left over for my own little car, small house, my eventual wife (when i find her) and MAYBE a couple kids… I didn’t want anything glamorous, just “enough” for myself and to make life better for those i love…TEAM and LIFE played on that weakness and I’m so glad I saw this thread. My best friend whom I was showing this thing to cause i was skeptical and he is in the same situation as me found it and I read through the entire forum last night and was just like “wow…I really need a reality check…”


    Like I said I try…I’m really not all that smart or wise or I wouldn’t have fallen for such a scam in the first place :-\

  589. Maverick permalink
    May 21, 2012 7:34 pm

    I did read the whole thread like I said. I also especially loved the 35 out of 100 registered companies under the upline’s names…that was just…WOW…

  590. Maverick permalink
    May 22, 2012 7:38 am

    Right?! Even from an ethical stand point it makes no sense! If you’re a business that preaches community and team work, THEN YOU FULLY DISCLOSE EVERYTHING AND HAVE NOTHING TO HIDE!

  591. May 24, 2012 7:58 am

    True that. But not MLM charlatans. Their goal is to pillage them for as they keep drinking the kool-aide, to the max possible.

  592. May 24, 2012 8:01 am

    And welcome here Maverick! Good handle.

  593. Maverick permalink
    May 24, 2012 10:18 am

    I was SO close to going all in though…If my good friend, who I told about TEAM & LIFE hadn’t done his research we’d both be in huge trouble probably right now. He’s my best friend for a reason and has never steered me wrong, and I’ve always tried to be there for him in his times of need. So thank God for that.

  594. Speak Your Truth permalink
    May 24, 2012 4:24 pm


    I have read all your posts, appreciate them and am impressed also with your true wisdom, values, work ethic, and your example of what ‘true friendship’ is all about. Thanks for sharing your experience and amazing insight. I am sure all can appreciate the realness and truth in your comments.

    To You, as well as All the others on here who have shared their wisdom, experiences, expressed their opinions, humor, and facts for everyone have created an incredible community of service. It does help those who already KNOW something is wrong and is the reason many seek for the information they intuitively know is deliberately being withheld from them.

    The liefers learn from the ‘system’ to deceptively recruit, manipulate, avoid, spin, lie, elude, refuse, distract, and completely avoid answering because IF they were HONEST and upfront, no one would get started. But people intuitively know this and that is why they research and look for more information.

    They also intuitively or blatantly know something IS being HIDDEN and not ‘natural’ by their behavior and body language. People who use their own critical thinking, common sense, gut instinct, and watch their actions can clearly see they are only being ‘fed’ what the Team/LIEfers want them to think and believe with their propaganda…trying to keep others in the closed logic enviroment.

    Thanks Amthrax, and the rest for sharing and selflessly giving without expecting anything in return. It is the ‘difference’ and believe why so many thank you and the commenters for this site. 🙂

  595. Finally permalink
    May 24, 2012 6:05 pm

    This site is not only driving orrin nuts but it is driving what they are doing in lief. they are changing what they say about jobs, now all of a sudden they are ok because so many of them have to or are going to have to go back to work. They are setting things up so that they can look like they care and are also trying to cover up the fact that there has been ZERO net growth in the team for at least 4 years,,…………..They always claim explosions are happening but there is no evidence of net growth.

    I have also heard and spoken to people that are still on team and have found there way on this site. Many I have spoken to are reading the stories on here and are comparing them to what they see in their own teams and coming to the conclusion that the stories on here are true. It is taking a while but this site is exposing the lies and cheating that has been going on in team and people are seeing it first hand. IT Seems as though they see it in their teams and it gets confirmed on here by people they don’t know but have the same story as them.

    On another note, i have heard about Eric blomdahls attack of a young lady on his blog. Blomdahl apparently leaped before he looked with his blog. I have spoken to legal people, I will refrain from saying in what capacity they are involved with the legal system but suffice it to say that they would be ecstatic over eric pursuing legal action. I do not think he has any understanding of the can of worms that whole process would open up not only for himself but for team as well. for him to prove so called lies a lot of team info would be brought out in the discovery process. Something no one on team wants. Also for the link he posted about a 13 million dollar judgement…………he might want to heed that warning………there is plenty of evidence, from my limited understanding, that could land him on the wrong side of something like that. Oh what a tangled web they weave when they attempt to bully people. There are dozens of people with info and proof waiting in the wings to come forward with it……..DOZENS.
    Careful Eric and you might want to check up line and make sure that is what they wanted you to do with your blog……those that know you know you were manipulated into spewing the garbage about former team mates that you have. Also……..there are plenty of people that left team that were HUGE leaders that know how the teams worked and lines of sponsorship worked…..just saying ………… I know that I have seen blomdahl speak and he could get convicted for lying about running a health and wellness business………….being that he was neither………..You can’t be 100 pounds over weight and build a team so we know he didn’t do it, someone did it for him………….LOL

  596. No Team For Me permalink
    May 24, 2012 7:24 pm

    Finally – I just read the Blomdahl blog article you mentioned and I normally do not use this type of language, but all I can say is ‘what a bunch of crap’. Surely he can’t think anyone outside of TEAM would actually agree with his version. It’s pretty obvious they were not acting with integrity based on what he wrote.

    How would he feel if he were the one who didn’t resign in time? Would it be okay to take his group away? Or what about the fact that Orrin technically registered after Tim Marks and several others? Shouldn’t Orrin have been downline from Tim?

    Unbelievable how they use situational ethics for their advantage.

  597. May 25, 2012 11:14 am

    @Finally – Can you elaborate on what they are saying now about jobs? Is it basically, “Do LIFE/MFC/TEAM and you’ll be better at your job” ?

  598. Freedomhaha permalink
    May 25, 2012 1:10 pm

    This can’t be right… TEAM told me that job stood for “just over broke”. I doubt they would just lie to me.

  599. Speak Your Truth permalink
    May 25, 2012 2:03 pm

    Freedomhaha~ Hahahaha!!!!

    Finally~ I couldn’t Agree More! I’ll have to do some reading and comment later…But I am sure it is Nothing New under the Sun! These guys are way too predictable!

  600. Finally permalink
    May 25, 2012 6:05 pm

    No Amthrax, they are now working into their presentation that “some people may love what they do” Or you can use this business and stay working if that is what you like………It is a joke. There have been many leaders that have had to go back to work and are hiding it from their teams. I know of at least 3 former triple 100’s going back to work. Here are some of the lines they use……”Oh I am just working here to get the corporation in system ” I don’t work here full time, I am just helping these guy’s out, they were good to me so I have the time during the day so I help them out” It is funny because we called the company on the guy that said the last one and they said he was a full time employee LMAO. He is also a guy that was given a team that he didn’t earn………..Job optional my eye…….the guy needed money to support his family and he is too embarrassed to tell his team he is not growing, which by the way they always say he is exploding. I know his whole second team quit on him….they said he was a _ _ _ K head and cocky as heck. their words not mine. I guess he was very arrogant about leaving his job when he did. he would even send messages to his team during the day from a restaurant and ask them where they all were…………now…….he is back to work. He is a liberator. I was on the phone with my buddy from that team and he ran it all down for me. He said that he thought Tim Marks even bought a car for him to make it look like he was doing better than he was. Next time I get to that state I am going to meet with my buddies from that team and they are going to show me some of the stuff they have proving all of the crap that went on in that team. I assume that same scenario is going on team wide……..evidence of lies and wrong doing. I predict you will hear about how some of these team guys can’t stand the state of the country so they are going to go into corporate america and show them how they are so screwed up…….You can only hide that you are not making money for so long……and sooner or later people find out they are working so they have to justify it some way. I bet Birtles or his wife is back to work in some fashion. I could look into that I am close to some still in our team. However it shakes out mark my words they are setting the stage to explain how leaders have had to go back to work……………

    @ No teram for me, they have zero integrity, as far as I am concern