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LIFE is the New MLM Business for TEAM… or the next M.L.M Titanic?

May 6, 2011

From a commenter on my site (with minor spelling corrections):

UPDATE: New LIFE Business:

Soft Launch in August, 2011
Official Launch in October, 2011

This NEW LIFE Business is a NEW MLM – Completely separate from Monavie. It will be competing against Monavie which makes me wonder – how well is Monavie DOING in North America? And is Dallin Larsen alright with Team starting a NEW MLM OR maybe Dallin is financing this NEW MLM?? OR maybe Dallin doesn’t know about this NEW MLM??. On the TEAM website a NEW LOS will be created which will be a separate business from the existing TEAM opportunity to earn profit sharing with Monavie. This NEW business will be 100% selling Tools focused around the 8 F’s and will sell these tools to existing Team members, new Team members which are recruited into the MLM and here’s the kicker – to basic customers who want to improve their lifes in any one of the 8 F areas. This is how TEAM plans on growing to 1 million people. This NEW LIFE Business will simply be an MLM which sells motivational material to support your LIFE.

This is very interesting, and it’s further confirmation about what we’ve been talking about on this site for months now. I know that I, along with many ex-TEAM members, will be very interested in seeing how TEAM pulls this off… or doesn’t.

Big question is if TEAM’s current financial ship, MonaVie, is sinking or not. Ironic — though perhaps deliberate — that TEAM uses a big ship’s wheel to describe their LIFE product. “Women and children first” on TEAM? Sadly, I think it’s more “Orrin and Policy Council Members” first and always!

Remember, if you take the F’s out of LIFE, you get LIE. Remember that when you listen to your next Orrin Woodward CD.

If Orrin really is changing the focus of TEAM, it just shows that he has failed in demonstrably measurable ways in bringing financial success to the majority of TEAM’s members. Don’t forget that people joined TEAM in the first place to better their financial lives.

In my opinion, TEAM L.I.F.E. is not the H.M.S Queen Elizabeth II, it’s the M.L.M Titanic!

Anchors away… without TEAM!

268 Comments leave one →
  1. Speak Your Truth permalink
    May 6, 2011 10:13 am

    Well surprise, surprise, NOT!
    Absolutely nothing new~ they may call it a NEW LOS but it’s the same ole LOS they stole from Amway. Lawsuit they tried suing for Amway being a Pyramid scheme, what hypocrisy?! Then lost to Amway when they sued them for raiding their downline~LOS ?

    Hmm… So all along they have been an illegal MLM, no? Just teams of people buying their system from themselves-self consuming? Is that why they started calling the people, customers? We already knew that. They have always been a ‘separate business’ we can prove that with our 1099! And have always promoted them-selves as the ‘business opportunity.”

    Now they just paid attorneys to stay one step ahead of the law to make them-selves a ‘legal’ MLM? There really isn’t anything new under the sun with these shysters! And now, do they expect all those people to give up their $$ (those making any) that they earned, all that TIME & MONEY wasted,again, trying to ‘sell’ (that alone takes some serious deceptive skill!) for Monavie?

    Wonder if they are giving THEIR Monavie income up or do they get to keep theirs? Orrin AGAIN, making everyone’s decisions for ‘your business?’ More money earned & lost for them poor souls? Expecting others to just give it up for them, again! How do these guys sleep at night?

    Took them about 15 years to move from the other ‘best business bar none ‘-Amway, then lasted another 3 years to the next greatest (bench marking) business- Monavie. “What about the Healthy, Wealthy,& Wise?LOL
    And ALL those obsolete ‘JUNK’ information cd’s that will be throw in the garbage, AGAIN!

    This ought to be interesting to watch how long they last without someone else’s product to latch onto and their money backing them!

    Should also be interesting how well their lie sells now, it never worked before selling during the ‘6 month no compete’ wait!
    Thanks, Cyrstal & Amthrax for sharing.

  2. Jeff permalink
    May 6, 2011 10:44 am

    Interestingly, I got a text from my former sponsor/upline who said he wanted to get together and fill me in on what’s coming down the chute. He didn’t want me to miss out. 🙂
    I told him I already knew what was coming b/c the internet is a wonderful thing.
    He said “I’m sure you do, but firsthand info from Orrin and Claude works best for me.”
    So, I told him I’d get together with him and let him explain it all to me. That way maybe I can find out some more details to share with you guys.
    The fun never ends. 🙂

  3. humiliated permalink
    May 6, 2011 1:14 pm

    In this case LOS stands for “Load of Sh*t”. Good grief. Orrin is like an annoying little ” fruit fly that you try to swat away at but keeps reappearing in front of your face. Much like the fruit fly he is a parasite that seems to have no biological function on this planet!

    The “women & children” first is sort of a sad commentary on the reality of the situation as I think that women & children are the first to suffer when the husbands become involved in this ridiculous scam.

    Not sure that Dallin Larsen would be funding this new “venture” …perhaps we will see a lawsuit against MV much like what occurred with Orrin and Amway…there is no honor among these thieves.

  4. TOD permalink
    May 6, 2011 1:30 pm

    Did anyone see that The Team is offering a Spring Leadership 2011 Highlight DVD? Please tell me that this is free to everyone who attended. They are not taking another opportunity to gouge their reps, are they? Shame on you, Team. More than 8 F’s come to mind when I want to describe you… Freakin’ greedy, Freakin’ low-down, Freakin’ heartless. I do know one ‘F’ that is not part of the Team L.I.F.E… Free.

  5. TOD permalink
    May 6, 2011 1:32 pm

    Also, go to the Team website and you will see the same 6 faces on the front of the website. ‘life’ is good for very few on Team. Those same 6 have been there for around 3 years now.

  6. May 6, 2011 4:21 pm

    I tweeted about that highlight album when I saw the @TheTeamBiz tweet at #SPLC11. Pretty low to have people order a DVD from the conference even before the conference was over. But, if you have to get them, get them when they are all motivated and ready to buy more and more tools. What’s another $20, after all? Sad.

  7. Speak Your Truth permalink
    May 6, 2011 7:54 pm

    Jeff~Welcome! I love your ‘internet is a wonderful thing’ LOL
    The ‘first hand info’ from the guru’s and the ‘wouldn’t want you to miss out’: is old as dirt, LOL Bet he can’t wait to tell you, they are going to do what they have always done~manipulate, deceive & con people! But hey he is probably ‘really fired-up’ right now and thought of you- 🙂

  8. Speak Your Truth permalink
    May 6, 2011 8:00 pm

    Humiliated~Thanks for the laughs! I doubt Dallin would be funding it either, but wonder how the ‘lower than a snake’s belly’ is pulling this one off to avoid a lawsuit? But then again he’s had 3 years to manipulate and I know Dallin is repeating their same mantra, Have fun, Make $$$ and lots of it, and Make a difference. You can always tell when Orrin has his hooks in, and the plan is complete it’s “REPEAT AFTER ME!”

  9. Speak Your Truth permalink
    May 6, 2011 8:03 pm

    So, 20 bucks couldn’t these heartless thieves give it away.. NO! They need their life-style ticket! And how much did that cost to make? .20c
    When will it ever end?

  10. Speak Your Truth permalink
    May 6, 2011 8:12 pm

    Oh one other thing Jeff~he’s probably wanting to add (you) another ‘system’ count to get closer to that ‘directors pittance!’
    Ask him how close he is, that ought to add some fun 🙂
    Beware he’s coming off the ‘high’ from the major, and will use his best ‘stop thinking skills’, they are invincible coming out of that brainwashing event! Ought to be fun, listening to your follow-up!

  11. Speak Your Truth permalink
    May 6, 2011 10:14 pm

    TOD~ Has it only been 3 years, I thought longer? What happened to those other one’s that made it once, had their day ‘on stage under the bright lights,’ and then oops? I bet the registration had something to do with it, you think?
    Funny how NO ONE has moved on, not even those so called leaders guilting everyone else to! This new (same ole) gig~will help them go to a million, lol
    I am so glad we are done!

  12. TOD permalink
    May 7, 2011 4:26 am

    L.I.F.E will F.A.I.L.

    In fact, that is the only way I am going to address the Team business from now on. It’s way more accurate.

    F.A.I.L. “We create broken dreams and negative cash flow, 1 person at a time”

  13. TOD permalink
    May 7, 2011 4:39 am

    F.A.I.L. “Going to 1 million people (who will spend more than they make every month for year upon year in hopes of living the dream, while they miss countless events of their kids until finally they are exposed to dangerous amounts of Amthrax and eventually fade away while being labeled loser and quitter by the very people who were their best buddy right up until the moment that they go off of system)”.

  14. Speak Your Truth permalink
    May 7, 2011 6:35 am

    TOD~So True & Very Sad.~’exposed to dangerous amounts of Amthrax’ LOL I hope more are exposed~it will open their eyes!
    So, much for their promised ‘drop in prices,’ more broken promises? Seems that’s what they are ‘masters’ in broken promises & dreams.
    20 bucks is a complete rip-off, there DVD’s used to be 12 bucks, that wasn’t enough profit for them?
    Simply money changing hands…from your’s to theirs.
    They deserve their ‘spot’ on American Greed!

  15. May 8, 2011 2:32 pm

    New Life Business?

    More like No Life Business

    Yeesh. People who can’t see this for what it is almost deserve to be ridiculed.

  16. Teri permalink
    May 8, 2011 6:27 pm

    Wow, nicely put! I can imagine it takes away from every aspect of your family, life etc!

  17. Teri permalink
    May 8, 2011 7:08 pm

    SJ Barakony

    @TEAMRokKaizenSJ Central Ohio w/ other rascals

    Own an internet C-Commerce biz -Follow, tweet, or DM me 4 more info. Thrilled to be affiliated with TEAM -offering a vehicle to L.I.F.E. via the 8 F’s.

    Found on Twitter!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1

  18. May 9, 2011 5:56 am

    OK folks… so help me out here. How is this a New MLM, and one that is competing with Monavie? This is exactly what they were doing for the 6 months that they left Amway and went to Monavie! Remember that!? Trying to sell “Leadership” materials to third party companies and other individuals who wanted to “improve their lives”! Is the only difference now going to be that you won’t have to be a profit sharing level to benefit from this new tool MLM? I don’t see how they are going to sell this idea to the masses… let alone their own people who are still probably waiting for the Wal-Mart of the internet….which I’m sure is still in the works LOL!

  19. Speak Your Truth permalink
    May 9, 2011 7:17 am

    Punisher~Yes we remember, lol It didn’t work! The thing that rips me is they have been operating as their own entity (raking in millions off the backs of everyone else) since 1999. We heard, that Orrin was putting things in place to make it ‘legal?’
    So along HE was operating a Illegal ‘pyramid scheme, ripping people off?
    Making promises of ‘passive residual’ blah, that he did NOT keep, not to mention the theft, unethical, and illegal practices they pulled during the registration!
    How have they gotten away with it for 12 years!? Maybe the same way Madoff did?
    Someone needs to seriously, investigate them!
    And the hyposcrisy of suing Amway for being a ‘pyramid scheme!’
    I bet the people become EMPLOYEES, instead of ‘independent business owners’ (like that was ever true)!
    Wouldn’t that just, frost ya! All those years of BASHING bosses & working for someone else and at the end of your ’45 years (plan)’ you are dead, disabled or dead broke?
    Nothing ceases to amaze me @ what they will do for stolen pieces of worth-less silver! GREEDY!

  20. Burned Out With MV permalink
    May 9, 2011 9:35 am

    Since there is no real product involved othen than a bunch of self serving nonsense retoric and “tools” of questionale value in the real world, I wonder what the FTC”s and BBB’s views are on this.

  21. Speak Your Truth permalink
    May 9, 2011 10:11 am

    Yea and I wonder too and how many REFUNDS will they will give for all those now junk MV/’tools’ that was suppose to build that best business~(bench marking study)? I can’t admit defeat!
    Or are they just going to ‘be the end all’ for all the MLM’s out there?(in their narcissitic, dellusional world).
    That’s what I would guess they will ‘try’ with their 8-F’s, the only one’s that would fall for it would be the ‘MLM’ hypers, where the MAJORITY lose, who else would buy their lies?
    It failed the first time they tried selling it to the general public, I thought they were into learning from their mistakes, no?~lol

    I really hope the FTC & BBB does their job to bring down these scammers!
    There are way to many victims to count and millions of dollars that have been ripped-off for them to rub in others faces, about their lifestyles!

  22. Jeff permalink
    May 9, 2011 12:54 pm

    I just got an email from my former sponsor and this is what it said.

    “The business just got cheaper to join so growth is going to excel which means more money for you as you build it.
    We are still using MonaVie (who wouldn’t it’s great!) And building the same way just have a few new changes that are really exciting. It’s $175 cheaper to get started, it’s now $122.95 + tax to get started!!!
    The most exciting thing about this is that Claude is going to do the Moncton open this tuesday and he’s going to display how to present it now and go into more detail on how it works.
    I wanted to send this because I know a bit about what’s coming but would rather you see it from Claude. We hope to see you there this tuesday!”

    I wish I could go to hear about it. 🙂 I’m sure I’ll get the details sooner or later but that’s a little tidbit about the pricing.
    PS – I’m from Canada so the pricing may be a little different.

  23. Speak Your Truth permalink
    May 9, 2011 6:51 pm

    Thanks for the update, Jeff!

  24. Crystal permalink
    May 11, 2011 6:18 am


    Thanks for the update.

    In regards to the new guy attending an open for the first time to see an opportunity… I’m sure once Claude explains the NEW opportuity, the new guy will be questioning, ‘what the heck is this thing… I come to a opportunity meeting to learn about ‘another’ opportuity when I haven’t heard about the first one!!!???’… way-to-go PC

  25. TEAM Newbie permalink
    May 15, 2011 12:15 am

    First off great site!

    Thank-you all for the REAL education!

    After a sleepless week, I have
    1. had the plan presented to me,
    2. read an introductory book,
    3. listened to a couple of CDs, (truly inspirational!)
    4. had a follow-up meeting,
    5. read another book,
    6. listened to three of four more CDs, (truly inspirational!)
    7. and finally attended a Saturday Education Session (or whatever it was called.)

    My response to the team is No thanks!

    “Where is your business plan? No, that is not a business plan. Show me the numbers, give me market research, demographics, target customers. You want me to invest in this business and you cannot provide me these figures.”

    Unlimited? You quote McDonalds / Ray Krok, Sam Walton, even Steve Jobs and Bill Gates. All of these guys knew/know they had/have a limited market. There a certain people that will not shop/buy their products.

    I think the product sucks. I cannot consciously and with integrity sell juice that costs a minimum of 4X more than a competitive product. It better be at least 4X better. (Does Viagra cost 4X more than Cialis or Celebrex?)

    Before getting involved in any new business, be diligent. Any upright business that truly wants you involved will “show you the money.” Share their research with you. Open their books, including their website and let you do your research openly. Yes there are limits to what a prospective company has to show you, but through thoughtful diligence one can determine the correct decision for them. Oh yeah if they approach you to get in as an investor, then they should not put up screens to block you.

    I do believe the CDs/books are truly inspirational. I will read more. But I will be going to the library and borrowing books from the top ten selling authors that I recognized before I heard of Brady and Woodward. I guess there is the one good thing the Team has done for me in the eight (now nine) days that I have been involved and that is to renew my vigor for self betterment and improvement and seek out more leadership positions in my community and through my employer.

    Thanks again to everyone on here for the support I have gained from your comments in the past week!

  26. May 15, 2011 1:11 am

    Thank you for your detailed story! I’m glad that this website helped you in your decision.

  27. Teri permalink
    May 15, 2011 8:13 am

    Big meeting this weekend in WI. I can only speak for the MKE area, however Friday night from 5:00 PM until 1:00 AM, YIKES! No breaks…Saturday 4:00 PM until….? Not sure as there was no confirmation email. Why do they lock people in a room for hours upon end, with no breaks, etc? I asked about TEAM LIFE, and what is done with the old material, I was told and I quote “IT is an extension of TEAM, so it all builds on one another”. Hmm, I think more brain washing going on? Wow, huge conference in MKE and 2 weeks later a 2 day lock-in? UGH….information coming from the guy I am dating. He is totally hyped now, not able to reason with him much, at the moment.

  28. Speak Your Truth permalink
    May 15, 2011 8:25 am

    Team Newbie~
    Thanks for great & clear post. Your imput is valuable to all of us and glad to see you found something postive quickly, without losing any money, other than the Saturday event. Glad it only took one for you to move on. Once you have been to one, you could say you have been to them all, because the next one is a repeat of the last one, with a twist of personality difference. And the every cd is just the recordings from those very same events, you already paid to attend. Good luck on your journey.

  29. Speak Your Truth permalink
    May 15, 2011 12:33 pm

    LOL~ you are onto it!
    Sorry though, it must be hard for you to watch this.
    Same bogus answers for old material, another one is they never get old and are still usable because of the ‘principles’ taught.
    Principles.. right, Yea how to decieve & brainwash!
    Have fun, hope you have found a new friend to take~a ‘cult expert’ 🙂

  30. Speak Your Truth permalink
    May 15, 2011 12:35 pm

    More friends; FTC, BBB, IRS, just a thought 🙂

  31. Team Newbie permalink
    May 15, 2011 4:25 pm

    Cult-Like? Yes. But I hate that word, as it conjures up images of JJ and DK. Also Team members could think that I am in a cult-like group because I follow sports closely, or believe in the “slow living movement.” I am passionate and fanatical about these things but I am not cult-like.

    They did not like that my wife and I are debt-free and that our real wants in life are not extravagent like they promote. I would rather spend $1500 on a good commuter bicycle than $15,000 on a decent car or the Team Dream of a $150,000 Maserati, Porcshe, etc. They could not understand that a bicycle is a real goal. They think I have just lowered my expetations because of my 9-5 job.

    There are three definitions of cult that do apply to Team though. The absolute worship that everyone has for Orrin, Chris, and Claude and there wives. I am sure there are others. I heard several times. Oh I met Claude, we had dinner. Here is a picture of his new (granddaughter??) with me. Orrin is the greatest leader the world has currently. If these people are so great why had I not heard of them before last Friday?

    I believe in cheering for people and encourging them, but everyone gets a standing ovation. Where is the special feeling for someone that does something spectacular? I guess anyone that can sell a case of $160 juice has done something spectacular?

    My friend was just here to pick up the LIFE book and the four CDs. Very congenial and friendly. If something bad happend in my life and I lost my job and struggled to replace the income and in three weeks, six weeks, three months or six months as they are now promoting they will have more products to offer, I may get on board with them or another MLM. That would be a last resort. I do believe I could make an MLM business succesful for me with time. Time that I cannot afford now with my current situation. For me to join Team there would have to be changes to the organization and the marketing of the product.

  32. May 15, 2011 6:49 pm

    I added these links to my right-hand sidebar. Please refer people there in the future. Let me know how else I can improve the organization of this web site, since there has been so much content and comments being generated over the past several months.

  33. Team Newbie permalink
    May 15, 2011 7:10 pm

    “Time is most important…”
    How can they tell us that you will be able to spend more time with our families? I guess I have to wait 2, 5, 8 years. My friends, when they were here picking up the CDs and book were on their way to a Business Launch. WTH! So let’s see Friday night, Men’s night, 3+ hours. Sat = Rare session, 6+ hours. Sun = business launch,? Their young teen son is looking after his two younger brothers again tonight, ages under 10 and a toddler. Where is the family time? Both parents work full time M-F 9-5. All in the hope that one day they will be able to spend the rest of their days with them? I only hope and pray for them that they will not be ripped off of any business they have built, like you were. More so, I hope they recognize the error of their ways.

    How can this organization still be regarded as a legitimate business? Stealing business from hardworking members that “earned” and paid their dues to try to succeed. I know from personal experience and have seen that business is a dog-eat-dog-world. But when you are in a “Community” that they tout, if one succeeds then all succeed. When one fails then all fail. Obviously they have changed the statement to suit them. When one succeeds, the upline succeeds more. When the upline fails, those in the downline that are succeeding will fail. How can this be a TEAM?

    Thanks for the links.

  34. Speak Your Truth permalink
    May 15, 2011 10:15 pm

    That is hilarious but good points!
    So how much did people have to pay this month alone?
    Back to having a major and semiar in one month, pretty costly especially when the 99% never make a profit!
    Glad we are keeping our money and freedom of minds!

  35. Burned Out With MV permalink
    May 16, 2011 3:59 am

    Glad to hear that our questions, comments, ranting, comments, humor and sarcasm helped at least one person to see that the “light at the end of the tunnel” was really the headlight of an approaching train.

  36. TEAM Newbie (Not!) permalink
    May 16, 2011 7:08 pm

    I have changed my name as I am no longer associated with the Team.
    Thanks for more links webelieved.

    I think that they are having so many meetings because in a few weeks they will be launching L.I.F.E. I know the book is already out, but it sounds like in the coming weeks or months they we will be launching more products to offer, based on L.I.F.E. I expect that it will be called LIFE brand or similar. (I am speculating that this is the brand name based on “hints” that were dropped to me by several members.)

    On our second meeting with my friends and mentor I advised them that I was not interested in selling Monavie. I laid out my reasons and they accepted. After they told me how much healthier they were because of it they told me that they are not really here to talk to me about MV. They are to make me a leader! Blah! Blah! Blah!

    Then the mentor told me that at the last Major, Orrin mentioned that in the coming three weeks the Team will have aligned with other suppliers and the Team will be able to offer more products. He, (of course) could not tell me what products they are as there are legal matters that need to be resolved. He then went on to talk more about the way the plan “really” works. “You get out of it what you put into it.”

    After the Sat seminar I told them that this was not for me, but I did say “When you have the other products available in a few weeks call me and present these products to me.” If there is something that catches our attention, I will look at it again. My friend said that the launch is expected in three months and they will contact me then. Did you say “months”? Why did the mentor tell me “weeks.” My friend said, that the mentor must have really meant “months.” As I was walking to my vehicle I passed another member having a smoke. He asked what I thought. I was honest and told him maybe with more products. He said that in that case we’ll see each other again just before the X-Mas shopping season. (Quick math in my head) Thanksgiving is six months away. They probably want to launch in time for X-Mas so six months.

    What is up? Three separate people have told me three different dates for the launch of the new products. Are they really trying to bring more products into their offering? Orrin you better get your story straight, because your followers are spreading mixed messages.

    I am located in Canada, so they will have a difficult time launching here under the LIFE brand as there is already a nationwide drug store chain (Shopper’s Drug Mart ) that brands their store brand products “LIFE.”

  37. TEAM Newbie (Not!) permalink
    May 16, 2011 7:26 pm

    Combatting Cult Mind Control – the synopsis has made me think more about the Team as a true cult.

    I explained yesterday that I did not want to view them as a cul. I feared that I could be viewed as being in a cult because of my fanatical ways about sports and slow living.

    However, another thing struck me about cults that is not in the definition on That is mind control. No TV. The best authors and the true leaders in this world are Team leaders. The messages that you must listen to, to succeed in this organization are delivered only by the leaders of the Team.

    Wow, where is the opportunity for members to view other ideas and form their own opinions? I was always taught by my mentors, weather personal or professional to have a broad base of experiences. This will make me a whole person.

    By controlling what the members hear, watch, and do, I can almost compare the people at the top of this organization to Hitler. Hitler burned books so as to not allow people to read about other beliefs. Orrin and the others are basically telling his members to burn others books.

    Maybe I am wrong, but that is my opinion.

  38. May 24, 2011 5:30 pm

    Hi guys, I haven’t been around for quite a while, but I looked back, to see 2 people get to this website before actually joining TEAM, shows that Amthrax is doing a good job!!

    Team Newbie (Not) – it is definitely a cult, they literally make you change your way of thinking, big time. It’s like your personality changes, especially when you’re around other TEAM members. Freaky. I see that big time in my ex-upline. Since I left TEAM, nobody from TEAM contacts me because I warned them to get out. I’ve lost friendships when I left the organisation. I know a few have blocked my emails. I’m glad you’ve decided to get out quick…you really have to be heartless if you’re going into this type of organisation.

    Teri – It may be devastating to see your boyfriend get into this scheme, but when his emotions are being played upon, it’ll be hard to get him out. Either he’ll be so fired up that he’ll have to hit rock bottom before he wakes up or the hype will die off as interest wanes. Let’s hope and pray it’s the latter!

  39. bogart permalink
    May 30, 2011 4:23 am

    I always hated hearing that line of BS about waiting for a new product to come out. And to hear more about the product you had to attend a SECRET MEETING which was more hype never details.
    Maybe the new product they are launching is the TEAM SHAKER WEIGHT. Which is similar to the 1 seen on SOUTH PARK. The only difference being. Instead of giving you money for cab fare. You put money in to hear how AMAZING you are. LOL

  40. They're Watching Us! permalink
    June 23, 2011 3:42 pm

    Got this tweet from a round table member today. Here’s the first peek at the new mlm.

  41. changeyourlife permalink
    July 21, 2011 7:24 pm

    I was involved with team and did not like monavie. When i heard about the launch of L.i.f.e. I knew this is what Orrin has been saying about taking mlm to the next level. For all those who left negative comments, just because you had a bad experience or did not succeed does not mean The Team is bad. The information they teach is from books written by top leaders like john maxwell. I have joined other mlm companies and nothing can compare to the Team and how well organized and informational they are. For those making negative comments and typing paragraphs go do something with your life instead of watching others do something with theirs. If your not happy with your life then do something about it. It doesnt have to be an mlm. Network marketing is not for everyone!!!

  42. Steve permalink
    July 22, 2011 7:34 am


    You started off ok in your post, and then as almost all of you present Team members, started ranting about how we make negative comments, have nothing better to do with our lives, and are very unhappy with our current situations. You like many others (myself included at one time) make some wonderful assumptions about how blogs like this get started. Do you or anyone else think it warms our hearts as we continue to go through such lengths to tell the otherside of the story? How is it that you can come on here and completely disregard what has been posted here and on other blogs with your opinions? You see there is a difference between facts and opinions. If you want to come back in the future please have some facts to back you up. Otherwise we bid you farewell, and good luck with L.I.F.E.

  43. Speak Your Truth permalink
    July 22, 2011 8:51 am

    Steve Great comments.

    changeyourlife~ Seriously? Do I read you are TRYING to tell others what to do with their lives?Who died and left you in charge? You my friend need to come back to earth, should do yourself a favor, and find someone else to give your ‘orders.’ That’s not going to fly here.

    You might want to try that in the team enviroment that is the dictatorship you are looking for!
    But I doubt You will make it happen there either, they will be ‘ordering’ you.

    Did you forget we LIVE in a FREE COUNTRY?

  44. Steve permalink
    July 22, 2011 12:33 pm

    I am starting to get sick and tired of the same old Team speak from those who think they know more than those who have been through this for many years. I know that we were all in the same boat at one time, but the facts couldn’t be anymore clearer than they are now. Don’t get me riled up I won’t be so nice next time. Lol

  45. Speak Your Truth permalink
    July 22, 2011 5:07 pm

    Steve~ LOL I was thinking the same thing! It is irrating especially when they never say NOTHING new. The worse kicker is he actually tired to ‘educate’ us on what the team ‘teaches’; like his statement about John Maxwell books. It just makes you shake your head and go REALLY, I never knew that. Seriously, did he even read ONE post? LHOL 🙂

  46. Mickey permalink
    July 26, 2011 9:36 pm

    What do you have to offer me and my family that even comes close to the TEAM approach.

  47. Mickey permalink
    July 26, 2011 9:43 pm

    GET A LIFE !

  48. July 26, 2011 9:56 pm

    Orrin Woodward and TEAM have been around for nearly 20 years. In that long span of time, how many people on TEAM are job optional? Think of the tens of thousands of people who have gone through the TEAM approach. Why aren’t there more financial success stories? Quite frankly, the TEAM system simply does not work.

    What do I have to offer you? Let’s count up the 8F’s:

    1. Finances: Save upwards to $500/month by not spending it on TEAM tools and MonaVie juice.
    2. Faith: Go to a church that does not worship the almighty dollar.
    3. Freedom: Get out of the cult-like atmosphere that is TEAM, and you’ll be free.
    4. Following: Is TEAM teaching you to be a leader or a follower? I thought it was the former, but it certainly looks more like the latter.
    5. Fitness: Stop drinking the purple jungle juice and exercise.
    6. Family: Stop attending TEAM meetings and chances are you’ll see your family a whole lot more.
    7. Fun: Wearing a suit in the middle of summer in Ohio is not my idea of fun.
    8. Friends: If you left TEAM, would your TEAM friends still be your friends?
  49. Speak Your Truth permalink
    July 26, 2011 10:27 pm

    Amthrax~ Awesome post, couldn’t have said it better! 🙂

    Wonder if Mickey Mouse will take your advice, LOL

    BTW~ Mickey, team approach is just the method of which they build, hows that working out for ya? How many people you got in on your ‘team approach?’ LOL

  50. Rhonda Hill permalink
    October 21, 2011 4:07 pm

    So how isTeam any different from any other MLM business opportunity when it comes to the uplines and conferences and the “cult-like” quality of it all. From the posts here, you could say many of these things about Amway, or any other MLM bus. for that matter. I was just introduced to Team the other day, and while I know MLM businesses aren’t for me in general, I didn’t see anything in it that alarmed me (i.e. pushiness of the leader, encouraging you to look at your dreams, etc.). I figure anyone can succeed in these if they go about it the right way and really believe in the product. So how is Team so bad compared with others? There are always critics of MLM in general. Does this mean it can’t work? Obviously it can work. Maybe not for the majority, but for many.

  51. brent hansen permalink
    October 21, 2011 8:02 pm

    Actually Rhonda, the mathematical probability of success is dismal at best, and although you may be right in saying “anyone can succeed in these things”, any one person’s success would come at the loss of over 95% of the people in their team. So I believe for you to say “many” can succeed is a gross overstatement of the reality of MLM compensation mathematics.

  52. almostgotme! permalink
    January 6, 2012 5:02 pm

    wow – this has been very helpful to me. I was approached by a LIFE team member 3 weeks ago & invited to a satellite broadcast. When I questioned her as to what it was all about, she hesitated & told me that it was confusing to explain but that the broadcast would help me to understand. At the time warning flags came up in my brain – the business she was involved in was too complicated for her to explain to me?? But I had told her that I would go to the meeting, so I did. Driving over I was rehearsing in my mind how I was going to explain to her that this was not for me (I was expecting some kind of pyramid type business, even tho she had not said this to me). I will admit that I was a bit drawn in by the speakers on the broadcast…..altho at times I got the feeling that I was watching a late night infomercial. It didn’t help that another friend of mine, who I really do respect, was there & had already signed up to be a part of the team a couple of months before. I was given the cd’s & book to go over while at the meeting. I listened to the cd’s the next couple of days & was caught up in the stories….especially the thought of financial freedom. But in the back of my mind there were still warning flags waving. For example, did I really want to live the lifestyle that they were promoting? How noble was that ? How was helping my community? After a couple of days I got a call asking if I could meet so that I could get signed up. I was so close to doing it….but something kept making me hesitate. So I went to 2nd meeting this week. The first thing that irritated me was that I had to pay to go this next meeting. Then I was irritated that the information was almost the exact same thing that I had heard the first time- was I really going to be expected to pay each week to hear the same info regurgitated over & over? Then they announced that there was going to be a special Friday night broadcast where you would get to hear Orrin – what the heck, I thought. More money to pay? More time away from my family? I ended up leaving the meeting this week early. My mentor or whatever you call the person who told me about the business was to get with me today to sign me up. All night I slept fitfully – I would wake up & try to convince myself that this was going to be a good thing for my family. All day it bothered me. I finally decided to simply not show up for my meeting in order to buy myself some more time. Then I decided tonight to see what I could find out on the internet about LIFE. Am I ever glad that I did. I know now that this is not going to be our ticket to freedom. We already have freedom. Thank you so much for helping me clear this up in my mind. Blessings!

  53. January 6, 2012 5:21 pm

    @almostgotme! Thank you for sharing your story. You correctly identified that the meetings are the same thing over and over again. You saw that you’ll have to start paying for each meeting (after your first), and that you’ll be spending more of your time away from your family. Good for you!

  54. TruthSeeker permalink
    January 6, 2012 6:11 pm

    Very wise decision.

  55. almostgotme! permalink
    January 6, 2012 6:38 pm

    I found this site by googling “LIFE (the team) – is it a pyramid scheme” & then I scrolled down thru the offerings until I saw this one & knew I had found what I was looking for.
    I was at a very small meeting in a home where we watched the satellite broadcast. You listen to a husband/wife team for an hour, take a 10 minute break, then another hour with another husband/wife team. During the 10 minute break, I asked the people how this was not a pyramid scheme. They immediately pulled out a white board & drew me a picture of a pyramid scheme & then a picture of the legs or something like that. They emphasized that this is my business, that I am the one benefiting, not them. Then why do they care at all if I do it or not? If it looks like a pyramid scheme & smells like a pyramid scheme, then it probably is a pyramid scheme. I will say this about the audience watching the speaker (the audience that we could see on the screen). I felt great sadness for them. They looked like people who needed to find some answers for handling debt, costs of living, etc. & I knew that this was not going to be the answer for most of them…..despite all of the applauding & standing ovations!

  56. Finally permalink
    January 6, 2012 6:47 pm

    Almostgone, seeking outside information was very wise. I know it is hard to believe your guy was right. You saved yourself from years of frustrations and financial strain. great job!!!

  57. January 8, 2012 12:40 am

    Interesting. ? though. Can a new member not build his own team and then that team get together to read not only the LIFE/LLR books as well as others that are not recommended by LIFE but that I could recommend. I believe in helping people but also know people can still succeed and be happy in their ordinary jobs and spend time with their kids and build a nest egg. Will LIFE up liners not let you do this?

  58. January 8, 2012 12:55 am

    Just to calrify I would have never joined team when they were pushing Monavie. This new product of the 8 F’s and the LLR subscription series is interesting and I believe one can get something out of it to improve their lives. I own my insurance agency and understand teh power of residual income so I did join the TEAM yet I am only a week into it and after reading the posts from before the new launch, I can see now in this new model that the goal is to keep people on subscriptions and also bring in people that will go out and bring others in to be subsrcibers and be part of the community team. This can be a powerful tool but the idea of getting rich a financal free needs to be toned down a bit. I am not into the big stadium type group rah rah meetings and that part turns me off. I started my own insurance agency so I could spend more time with my kids and the idea of going to all these weekend functions is not my idea of what I am going to want to do. The once a week nightly meetings in my community and sharing ideas and principles and how you can apply them in your lives and businesses I do believe is very valuable and I am willing to spend $50 per month simply for that and to receive a book a month. Not sure what the books will be yet but I suspect they are all not bad. Ya I could get these at a book store on my own and start my own community/book club to discuss the ideas in these books to better our lives but I am interested and introgued by the business side of it and potential for a little passive income. I did not get into this with the idea of leaving or selling my agency as I would never do that and I am in the process of replacing myself within the agency so as to spend more time doing what is important to me all the while maintaingin my income from my customer book of business becasue I provide a product that is required by law is some respects (Work comp in CA), general laiblity and other types of policies ie; Homeowners and personal auto that people will cut last if things get tough. I hear the naysayers but believe that you can’t look to this as a means to the end of working and that you will be financially free. I see it as a personal and business growth tool within a community of like minded individuals all striving to improve their lives and businesses as well. Am I missing something here? Thanks for the replies.

  59. January 8, 2012 11:22 am

    Webelieve- I really appreciate your honest comments here. I also thank you for the warnings and I think I will confront some of the higher ups in our group here and ask about these things you speak of. If this is true then I definately would not want to even have a chance of jeopardizing my or my families reputation in the community which I have worked hard to establish since we moved here 6 years ago. I intend fully on keeping and growing and if what you say is true and there this possibitlity then I have to take it into consideration. I would never want to put anyone I know and respect into that situation either of false promises or unclear business practices. Freedom of speech and independent thinking is what makes this country great, not the following of a few “quote unquote” leaders by thousands that can’t think for themselves. They definately have some explaining to do. I will let you all know what they say when confronted about the Raatzs and the possibility of this being stripped from others. I started my own agency to be able to spend more time with my kids and this past year have had more time for family than ever before. If I am forced to attend functions and pushed out if I don’t then I want no part of that. My weekends are more important to me now and forever. I could put plenty of time in a few nights a week to not have to spend entire weekends on this business. As I said before, I am not seeing and or got into this to replace my income but to only add to it but really to read the materials and be within a group that talks about the materials and helps each other apply it in their businesses and lives. That I still think could be a positive and advantageous thing about TEAM LIFE. Will check back with ya’ll.

  60. TruthSeeker permalink
    January 8, 2012 12:06 pm

    Mo, I am happy that you find the materials useful and motivational to you. If it is worth $50 to you then I wouldn’t suggest you do not stop purchasing them. You are a consumer, and have every right to use your dollars in whatever manner you see fit.

    It does seem ironic to me that you would give creedence to the training if 1/10th of what is exposed on this blog is true. If any of these things are true, the bankruptcies, stolen teams, back-door deals, shell corporations, loans from MLM companies, compensation mathematics, anonymous blogging, manufactured accolades, hypocrisy, and lies, wouldn’t that negate anything positive that you could hope to gain? As Mark Twain so simply stated in Huckleberry Finn, “You can’t pray a lie”. If anything contained within the walls of this blog is true, run.

    There are no gray areas here Mo, either the people on this blog are correct, and Orrin and Life is one of the biggest shams of all time, or the people on this blog are blatant liars. It is totally up to you to figure that out, and be wise because you obviously have a reputation riding on this decision.

    I think your approach is noble, why not continue getting together in groups and discussing the principles that will make a difference in peoples lives. There are groups all around America who meet on a regular basis to discuss these principles. A friend of mine belongs to a group called CEO space who meets regularly and brainstorms together about how they can each improve their own individual businesses and leadership. But for goodness sake be careful of who and what you are promoting.

    All I can say Mo is be very wise in this decision. Ask the right questions, and seek the information that normal folks are too shy or afraid to ask. Dig deep and get some real answers. Good luck.

  61. Brent H permalink
    January 8, 2012 1:03 pm

    There are hundreds from Team West who left and are no longer part of Legacy as well. Many, many profit-sharers and Q-12 Quixtar qualifiers. We could literally create a list with 500 people on it if we chose to. Wouldn’t that be fun?

  62. Finally permalink
    January 8, 2012 3:41 pm

    The means can’t justify the end. Their are using good quality time tested principles to manipulate and promise years of residual income. I do not care how good the meetings might be if you are talking about good principles, they exist to keep the cash flow flowing to the top “team players”…period!!! They always say that everyone has the same opportunity, and that may be true……….but they do not all have the same chance………there is a difference. The stuff on here is true and the sources have experience it both first and second hand. Orrin knows it but will NEVER admit it. Jus like he never admitted fault in the Q lawsuit. He lied under oath and on his blog repeatedly……….If people can’t see that then they should sell their souls and stick with team. There are many ways to get what the team supposedly offers……..their community is not going to change anything because at the root they are about their lifestyles not changing anything.

  63. Finally permalink
    January 8, 2012 3:50 pm

    Mo you are either for them or agains them. All they will ever try to do is to get you to get people to subscribe to their 8 f program. On the surface it sounds good, but how can they push principles they all violate to a high degree everyday? All their information is available in other places without the corruption of the team. They will press you to get your whole office on system, not to better them but to up their incomes. They would never have done the things they have done of they lived their 8f’s. In the end you will make your own decisions but trust that they will befriend you as long as you are an asset. They are not qualified in the things they promote, their are enough horror stories on here as proof. I made another friend that was in a different team than mine. He and his wife were told to put his mother in a home because the time they were spending taking care of her in her final months and days of her life were interfering with them building their team business. That is the sickest most vial thing I have ever heard of someone doing. The sicker part is they as team have criticized corporate America for doing what they recommended this couple do. They are animals at times………

  64. Rob Hofmann permalink
    April 4, 2012 8:04 pm

    I got a really nasty reply…

    Hi Rob,
    I completely understand your feelings and concerns and actually commend you on your concern for your good friends Vic and Cindy. Certainly no hard feelings here, would love to pick up the stuff tomorrow while I’m over there if that’s possible?
    p.s. I would love to speak with the authors of the material you sited in those website sources, can you arrange a meeting?
    The two blogs on the left side of this email are done by friends of mine, if you’d like to mix in some facts feel free.
    Have a great night!

    to a no thank you after a presentation. Can anybody email her? She wants feedback. thank you!

    [Editor’s note: email removed]

    or ALL of you????

  65. April 5, 2012 12:53 pm

    @Rob – If Leslie wants to get in touch with me, just direct her to my website and/or have her leave a comment on one of the many posts here.

  66. billy permalink
    April 9, 2012 9:33 pm

    What are the Amthrax Nation’s thoughts on Troy Dooly’s latest youtube videos regarding Orrin and LIFE? (

    Also, why not post responses both on this site and under his video(s)?

    LIFE is a TEAM sport. Fired up.

  67. Mike Collins permalink
    April 10, 2012 8:12 am

    I read Troy’s feeble attempt at debunking this article and once again he doesn’t fail to at least amuse us with his faulty, forced logic that fails to sound even remotely coherent. I mean, come on Troy if you’re going to sound off like an expert how about learning some basic grammar and writing skills.

    He starts off by saying in print: “First off I want to be perfectly clear, I love and read Forbes consistently! However, in reviewing the Forbes article titled “Climb To The Top”, about Orrin Woodward, Amway, Monavie and Network Marketing aka
    Multi-Leval (sic) Marketing, I found it biased, and the information either provided to lead the readers to a predetermined outcome.”

    What was that Troy? “the information EITHER provided to lead the readers………?” Again……What?

    Another one of the numerous stupid things he said is this little gem on the video at the 1:40 mark: He quotes the Forbes article as saying “Team is one step ahead of all these juice selling schemes. It is a pyramid atop a pyramid”

    He goes on to comment: “which is totally wrong. If anything it would be a pyramid beside a pyramid NOT on top of a pyramid, so they didn’t even get THAT right. But if it was a pyramid atop a pyramid and everybody is making money then again, it isn’t a pyramid scheme they’re two sales organizations working together.”

    About half way down the page in print he quotes the article in question then has this note posted below it:

    “This statement in and of itself is accurate. But the implication made by the reporters is inaccurate. To be classified as a pyramid, an organization would have to take money and not provide anything of value.”

    So which is it Troy?

    This is nothing but incoherent double talk which about sums up Troy’s debating capabilities.

    These are just two examples of Troy’s complete incompetence in debating or debunking anyone that holds any view of MLM that runs contrary to his. His article is full of irrelevant facts that do nothing to debunk what the Forbes article is about.

    Orrin, are you sure you want this guy (the same guy that promotes Christian nymphos on his personal website, at least he did take down the link selling sex toys) to attempt to repair your reputation? I think your money would be spent better elsewhere.

  68. Speak Your Truth permalink
    April 10, 2012 2:40 pm

    Freaking Amazing coming from a guy who admittingly claims he is biased himself!

    What ‘audience’ or who does he think he has convinced, of these feeble inane attempts? These guy’s never cease to amaze me at how stupid and gullible they must believe people are! They say it….and others are suppose to say…yes master…pfft.

  69. yeah right... permalink
    April 29, 2012 7:08 pm

    The only time my brother in law calls is when he wants to sell me something. My favorite part is where the team claims to share conservative values and simultaneously victimizes people to get their money and uses empty bandwagon rhetoric to rally the troops. So much for having a mind of your own.

  70. Jason Wroght permalink
    July 24, 2012 12:39 pm

    So let me get this correct. Are you guys mad because you failed at a buisness or angry because others have succeeded when you have failed. I do see a common theme here. If anyone had succeeded they would not be on here. When you fail it is always great to have others fail with you so you won’t have to blame yourself and it does not reflect on you as bad. But that is the biggest lie you could ever tell yourself. Look guys, you have to put the work in to make things happen in any business. Just becasue you sign up does not mean people owe you anything. The kind of information people are able to recieve allows people to turn businesses into a success. Stop looking for others to give you something and start playing the hand that was dealt to you. Life will only get better.

  71. July 24, 2012 3:28 pm

    @Jason – In the near twenty years that TEAM (during its affiliation with Amway, MonaVie and LIFE), count how many people have seen financial success? The Policy Council members? There’s seven of them. How about the Round Table? We’ve seen bankruptcies, home foreclosures, and a number of tales of financial ruin in that tier.

    Fact is, being a part of TEAM/LIFE does not lead to financial success. You may learn some tips on how to live your life, but there’s little chance that you’ll become financially free.

    We are mad because your leaders in TEAM are perpetuating a lie – the lie that if you stick with TEAM, follow the steps to success, you will have the dreams you’ve always hoped for. LIFE is a LIE.

  72. Freedomhaha permalink
    July 24, 2012 3:45 pm

    Jason- We are on here to save people from blowing money in an unwinnable business. You realize that if you “succeed” then you automatically have 95% of your TEAM losing. That is the math, and if you care to disagree people on here much smarter than myself will try to help you. I just could not feel good in any way, shape, or form about bringing people into a business I knew they were going to fail in.

  73. Speak Your Truth permalink
    July 24, 2012 4:17 pm

    Jason Wroght~

    Could you at least come up with some ‘new’ rhetoric and while your at it read the site, perhaps you would snap out of your dissonace.

  74. Mike Collins permalink
    July 24, 2012 4:46 pm

    @ Jason: read the stories here before you go shooting off your mouth. The people on this thread probably have more experience and more success in MLM than you’ll ever have.

    Just because you’ve been in Life for a few weeks or months and have learned some rhetoric doesn’t mean you know what you’re talking about. Nice try though. Now, go get some knowledge then come back so we can debate.

  75. July 26, 2012 9:15 am

    @Jason Wroght, said
    “Stop looking for others to give you something…”

    Another MLMbot half-witted, $3 worth assumption. From where did you pull that blockhead imbecilic ahem, wisdom? Jason it’s very very sad for you because as per Mike Collins,

    “Now, go get some knowledge then come back so we can debate.”

    I see no one here with a desire to tamper with your natural ignorance (you are an MLM neophyte full of it.) Ignorance is an expensive trail ride. Saddle right ‘n tight, you are onto it.

  76. Jason Wroght permalink
    July 29, 2012 10:59 pm

    I am not hear to argue, based on what you said people should just stop trying and go back to what they had before because other individuals failed at something they have yet to try. This business is like any other. If you don’t get the right information you will fail. Most small businesses fail with in the first 5 years. Most small businesses require you take out a loan. Now that is tough. Nobody is there to help to tell you what you are doing wrong or how to market. So they fail. But let’s say you do have access to others that have success and you learn how to apply what you learn. The chances of success increases with more information you are able to receive. As for people losing their home, check out the website, there is no hidden cost, it details how the business is ran along with compensation. In my opinion it’s an open book. I have researched many companies, most of them do not do that. With this one you know the product, compensation plan, and product materials from visiting the website. This is without even joining guys. That means zero cost to anyone that just wants to take a look at it. My definition of a scam is different from yours. To me a scam is withholding information from others in hopes to gain financially in a business transaction. No information is being withheld here. The only thing anyone has to do is to educate themselves with good information on business practice the internet and the value of the products. Set immediate goals so you can measure your success. This way you can very easily measure the amount of effort it will take to reach your goal with Team Life. Learn from other successful people in the business and outside the business. Many times when you may need to look at the latest trends and techniques to build a business that can be successful in today’s culture. Also, you must be consistent. Just because it is not a lot of money to join the opportunity, does not mean you should treat as such. I treat any investment as if I am taking out a $10,000 bank loan. If you do this you should reasonably expect to be successful. Oh and don’t listen to others that have failed, the information they used to run their business was more likely flawed. Listen to others that are successful, learn from them and duplicate what they have done. Good luck. Also as for people and success I know 5 people personally that have been quite successful at in this business and I watched them work their butt off while I did not. I am still working for someone else while they are vacationing. That is the proof I need.

  77. Vogel permalink
    July 30, 2012 4:36 am

    Could that nonsense have been written by a real flesh and blood human being? Seems more like the output of some random word-generating MLM autobot. Then again, so does Steadson.

  78. Former Round Table permalink
    July 30, 2012 5:16 am

    Oh my goodness, Jason, Jason, Jason, you poor foolish man. You are trying to tell people who have been on the INSIDE of this business how the business works? How people just need to get the “right” information and apply themselves? How if you want to succeed, you should not listen to “failures?” How your friends are now vacationing after working their butts off?

    Okay Mr. Smart E. Pants, my heart honestly breaks for people like you and your friends. You will work your guts out, and the end result will be this:

    -You will have sacrificed too much precious time with your real friends and family, you will have missed weddings, funerals, family parties, children’s school events, just to pursue money and recognition by a bunch of lying phonies.

    -If you eventually make enough money with Team Life to leave your job, you will end up scrambling in many different ways to make money, because the Team Life business will not sustain itself. You will regret leaving your job and burning bridges, because at some point you will have to eat crow and go back.

    -If you are “successful” in any way with Team Life, it means you have gotten good at lying to and manipulating people. You have gotten good at “spin” — you will find yourself justifying things like why the website (oops, I mean Electronic Business Center) costs $180 per year, or why the latest book of the month is the same book your teammates were encouraged to buy at the last major (business investment), or … I could go on and on.

    You say you treat any “investment” as if you were taking out a bank loan. Just try to take out a bank loan on your Team Life business. You will find that you can’t! And do you know why? Hint: it’s NOT because the bankers are too stupid to see a real opportunity. It’s because it’s not a REAL business! You do not have assets, nor do you have equity, which are the ONLY things a bank will lend on.

    In fact, Jason, you do not own ANYTHING! Your “business” can be taken away at the drop of a hat! My best guess is that your Policy Council leader has copied your post on this website and saved it for the future, for some day when you have not done exactly what he wanted you to do, or you ticked him off somehow, and he decides that he can no longer work with you. Then he will produce your silly post, even though it is pro-Team Life, and use it to have you removed from Profit Sharing. You will not get any chance to argue, nor will you have any recourse. If you don’t like it, you could pay tens of thousands of dollars to have an arbitrator tell you that it is clearly spelled out in the Policies and Procedures that you agreed to that you can lose your “business” for any number of frivolous reasons.

    But you won’t believe me, will you Jason? Because you don’t want to believe that your wonderful Team Life business is not what it seems. I am sorry for you, bud. Because I know the pain that is in your future.

  79. I QUIT (and glad I did) permalink
    July 30, 2012 5:46 am

    After reading that post the only thing left to say is BOOM goes the dynamite! What a great start to my Monday!!

  80. Brent Hansen permalink
    July 30, 2012 8:08 am

    Another genius.

  81. Freedomhaha permalink
    July 30, 2012 12:58 pm

    Jason- In order for those people that you know to succeed 95-99% of their TEAM had to lose money. Do you think this is a fair business model? If you do, Lord help you.

  82. Speak Your Truth permalink
    August 4, 2012 9:36 am

    Jason Wroght~

    You poor soul, I believe you have a very severe case of HIS&UUB disease (head in system & up upline’s butt). We have been inoculated and cured from this. Your post is a word for word script of what you have been blasted and will continue to be (indoctrinated) with. If ever you want to know the cure, just ask we are here to help 🙂

    But if you have come here to “educate” us on “what-it-takes” to build orrin woodwards business that won’t be necessary and if you read the site, you would figure this out. It appears to me you are very new and niave and are ‘practicing’ your rhetoric; which you are pretty proud. Problem is you came to the wrong site to ‘practice,’ unless of course you are ‘practicing’ on ‘getting tough skinned’ 🙂

    The principles you speak of work in real business, the problem is you aren’t involved in a ‘real business’. (see comp plan and the LIEF P&P’s) let us know how that compares to a real business.

    You have bought in hook, line, and sinker to the Lie. When you find out what we already know is in your future, we will be here for your support. Until then…. good luck, you are going to need it.

  83. Speak Your Truth permalink
    August 4, 2012 9:55 am

    Jason Wroght~

    Just a reminder and perhaps you will ‘relate’…”You don’t know what you don’t know”

  84. Brent Hansen permalink
    August 5, 2012 11:23 am

    Perfect summary written by Speak, “The principles you speak of work in real business, the problem is you aren’t involved in a ‘real business’.”

  85. Enlightened permalink
    August 18, 2012 8:31 pm

    OH WOW! I am so glad that I found this site! I was approached by a friend a month and a half ago to join her and her husband in “this great new thing that we’re doing – it’s called the Mental Fitness Challenge!” I am naive and had never heard of this, so I asked…”What is that?” She told me that it is “like P-90X for your brain!” and I thought it must be some trivia thing…something fun and light-hearted for a social gathering. Boy was I wrong. I was REALLY ticked when I got to the house and realized that I had been invited to a sales pitch! And, of course, she had been so kind as to offer to drive me to the challenge, so I couldn’t even leave early. I sat there, bitterly listening to the pitch, and I must admit that I was intrigued. My friend had only been a TEAM member for a couple of months, and she did a little pitching, but her mentors (husband and wife) and their mentor (supposedly someone pretty high up who just happened to drop in from out of state) did most of the talking. I am a single mom of 2 wonderful kids. I work full time and I wish that I had a means to add to my income and give us financial freedom and security for college and the future, especially given today’s economy and uncertainties in the corporate work-force. I wanted to believe that LIFE might really be something good for us, especially after being invited in by someone that I have known for a few years and consider a friend.

    So I bought in, that very first night. I NEVER do that, but this time I did. I didn’t bat an eye at the total cost of the TEAM membership, the subscription, and even the MFC. I rode home in her car feeling really positive about the possibilities. Then the next day I had Buyer’s Remorse like nobody’s business! I texted my friend that I wanted to return the items and the next thing I know, her mentor was calling me to rein me back in. She explained that everythign had a 30 day money back guarantee and I should just start listening to the materials. She and her husband would be out to visit me in a few days and we could discuss it more at that time. So I went to the LIFE website to try to get more information while I waited. I checked out the compensation disclosure form and found myself completely confused! How can anyone make any sense of that? Then I waited for the meeting and they came to my house, along with my friend, and spent an hour glossing over how great the program is. They showed me how to log in at the LIFE and TEAM websites and asked if I had an questions. I asked them how LIFE was “not an MLM.” They drew an org chart for a large corporation and suggested that it was the same shape as a pyramid, then explained that LIFE is no different, except that in the “pyramid” that I am working in my 9-5 job, I don’t have an equal chance of succeeding or surpassing the boss, like I do in LIFE. Frankly, the entire explanation was so convoluted, it was clear that they were trying to talk long enough that I would just give in. I asked about the compensation and about the requirement to have customers by a certain period in time or lose the opportunity to gain from the rest of the team. They told me that most people address this by signing their kids up as customers! Really? Then aren’t I really just paying myself for things that I am selling to myself? What sense does that make? They left me with a form to start filling in names and contact information for people I thought might “benefit” from the LIFE materials and said that my “homework” was to right down 100 things that I would like to accomplish in my life – that I should think big. And then, of course, they left me with a script to read on cold-calls to my friends. They said I shouldn’t answer any questions that my friends might have – that I should tell them that all will be answered when we meet with my mentors. It was all too much for me. There is no way that I could do that to my friends! If I can’t be honest with someone about what I am doing, I don’t want to be doing it. WAY too many things were pointing in the wrong direction for me, so I canceled the second meeting and returned my purchases for refund (one of which I am still trying to get back).

    I admit that I like what I heard on the cds, but frankly, it wasn’t new information to me – it was more of an acknowledgement that someone else thinks similarly to the way that I was raised. Certainly none of the information was life-changing or “aha!” for me, which meant it wasn’t worth $50 per month when I could be using that for something else. And I really didn’t like the idea of giving up the time that I do have with my kiddos when my work day is done in order to go to some sales pitch for potential new members, or evenings at my friend’s house at $40/night to listen to a webcast of the same materials I hear on the cds. When I told my friend’s mentor that I was going to cancel, she was very nice – and ended the conversation with “I’m sorry to see you go. I know that this system could get you home with your kids, where you want to be, but I know that not everyone is ready to change their lives.”

    OUCH! And I instantly thought “cult” – if you’re not buying what they’re selling, you should feel guilty. But you can’t tell anyone what you’re really doing, because they wouldn’t understand unless we brainwash them in the same way that we are trying to suck you in… I instantly felt relieved that I was out. Then I saw my friend the other day and she said she is still working on LIFE – she said she was told that “slow and steady wins the race” so she is just trying to keep a steady pace and not fizzle out. She even left me a few cds to listen to. She is excited that she gets to meet Orrin and his wife next week. And then I thought, “What if she is right? What if 10 years from now, her family is set and her kids’ college educations are paid for and they are able to travel and be with friends and family and not have to worry about retirement and 9-5 jobs anymore…but I still do?” So tonight I sat down to do the research that I normally would have done up front. I Googled “LIFE business” and after scanning down the first page, which was mostly websites for the LIFE business, I found this one (yes – on the first page of search results). I have read most of the postings this evening and feel like that sick feeling in the pit of my stomach all along has found its reason. It smelled shady from the beginning, but I didn’t want to put a negative label on something I didn’t know. But now I feel redeemed. I still believe there is financial security for myself and my children in our future, and I know that I am destined for more, but frankly, I love my life and I don’t need to pay some stranger to tell me that I should. Thank you, all, for taking the time to share your experiences on here. As Orrin, himself, has said on cd, “Experience is not the best teacher – someone else’s experience is!” You have all confirmed my peace of mind with my decision on what’s best for my family and I wish you all the very best!

  86. August 20, 2012 1:06 pm

    @Enlightened – Thanks for sharing your story. I’m glad that this site has helped me feel at ease with your decision to stay out of the TEAM/LIFE business. Hope your friend sees the light before she loses too much money in the process. Be sure to remind her that “slow and steady” doesn’t mean a slow and steady decline in her finances due to her involvement with TEAM/LIFE.

  87. musthavebeenterriblemother permalink
    August 22, 2012 4:55 pm

    @Enlightened: informative story! Boy, tonight, between you and my reading of Merchants of Deception, it’s all stil just mind-boggling that this is taking place legally in the USA.

    @Amthrax: okay, Merchants of Deception is fabulous! I hope that Eric S. aka John Jacobs posts on here, too. Now I see what ‘webelieved’ etal, meant, re: Orrin Woodward got his ideas, in toto from Amway teachings and methodologies!

    You know something, Amthrax? When I put ALL of the bizarre leadership blogs and Orrin Woodward’s etals, incessant treatises, etc., together–in other words, try to find the underlying meanings for the teaching/enlightenment scam they now dub LIFE….it really boils down to this:

    1) almost an anti-governmental distaste in: economics and education by numerous references to history and ancient history and the inherent state of man
    2) compounded by confabulated ramblings on the “8Fs”–as if they were authorities on it;
    3) peppered with the Christian hellfire and brimstone religions, and countered by studies in warfare;
    4) and tied together with their applied concepts of corraling and domesticating their prey in establishing/ using tenets for gaining and exercising power
    5) which, of course, leads to the innocent to slaughter in all of th e8Fs after market saturation for a particular level or they begin invoking their Hitleresque contract fine print
    6) all of which, for a time, allows them, just a few of the elite, untold amounts of wealth until the downline people croak on their own MLM vomit, or someone like Oprah Winfrey sues them.

    You know what this means?

    It’s no joke: they sound want rival “city states” that print their own money with dictators at the head….as if somehow this would be better than our 21st century, currently economically-depressed flawed state of a republic. It’s all just a bastardized Utopianism mixed with Hitlarisms.

  88. musthavebeenterriblemother permalink
    August 22, 2012 4:57 pm

    Last sentence correction, should read: “they sound AS IF the want rival “city states”..

    And a note on my above post to newbies like myself: post may not make too much sense to you unless you’ve read some of the Treatises, LIFE blogs, etc., from numerous of their honchos..

  89. musthavebeenterriblemother permalink
    August 22, 2012 5:34 pm

    @webelieved: thank you—the sad insight must be coming from a mother’s revived instincts after the bashing I took regarding LIFE. Well, that and Woodword the Prophet is kind of, um, revealing in what interests him, and the slop he’s handing down to ‘slop the hogs’. Not that good economists or historians, etc., wouldn’t be doing such things, but with him, it’s like flights of fancy or something—likely because he’s got to keep the BS coming because they’re all waiting to hear the next ‘Sermon on the Mount.’


    Or, would they be limiting it to, say, 15 yr olds in WI? Most, to have jobs, have to have parental signatures under the age of 16, or that’s how it used to be.

    Egad, that does it. Until I find out my kid is OUT of this, I am not handing over any money for the grandkids…I am starting trust accounts. Actual gifts the kids will enjoy is one thing…but no cash spewing from me anymore.

  90. musthavebeenterriblemother permalink
    August 22, 2012 5:52 pm

    @webelieved: okay, in about the 4th or so post of yours above…this was the part where I lost it when my son used it on me, only he prefaced it by saying I have no “vision”. Here’s the quote from your post:

    “I’m sorry to see you go. I know that this system could get you home with your kids, where you want to be, but I know that not everyone is ready to change their lives.”

    This is where I went nutso on my kid….I really did. Told him to get help or basically, we were done, i.e., that I would NEVER subject myself to his verbal abuse claptrap again. I felt I had been so bashed, that my life made a sham of, that if someone else had done this to me, I might have forgotten myself/age/disability for a moment and clocked the basta** with my cane!

  91. musthavebeenterriblemother permalink
    August 22, 2012 5:57 pm

    @webelieved: you said: “I think you are very smart to not give anyone in your son’s family money.”

    Yeah, NOW ya tell me! My generosity is the whole reason my little schnook had enough money to get into LIFE in the first place–it eased the financial burden enough for him to say: oh, hey, sure…a get rich quick scheme (this truly IS what he thinks it is–he admitted that much to me; he even said: look at the economy–get in and get out quick rich………which leaves me wondering if I had ANY influence on him in his entire life, because he sure did NOT get that moral-ethical code from me! I even said, astonished: you want to take what little money there is out of the pockets of POOR people? Are you nuts?)

  92. musthavebeenterriblemother permalink
    August 22, 2012 6:43 pm

    webelieved: wait a minute….if Hawk’s been in it 8 yrs, then he started in his 20’s when his wife got him into it?! How do you know this is how Hawkins feels (regarding what you said above)–you mean he’s just placating them for the money he gets?

    Oh, sure, I’m guessing it WILL draw my son in deeper, too.

    And just wait until they figure out who I am—then I will be in for the Wrath of Kahn on this end. Oh, well, freedom of speech and all that.

    Anyway, I think there’s emotional obstacles to rising in “mafiaLIFE”, but if they know I’m out here, and if they become soul brothers, oh, sure, I already said days ago that I could envision him being rewarded to prove a point to the naysayer. At that point, I think I’ll ask him if he realizes the money is coming from what HE AND OTHE POOR POOPLINE BOTTOM-DWELLERS are buying in worthless materials, considering that he only gets 5 to 15% in the early membership for sign-ups, etc.

  93. musthavebeenterriblemother permalink
    August 24, 2012 5:35 am

    @webelieved: what does “back office” mean? I’ve seen that several times in posts here–does it mean that the team and it’s members are listed in the Peters’s files as being built by themselves?

    Oh, really?! They had the nerve to threaten the Peters’s over this site? What a hoot–I’ve just had my name/address/city/and actual signature (!!!!) released by the rabid tea-party Repubs online for the world to see because I signed the Gov. Walker recall petition. I think it would take a LOT for Woodward to succeed. Not only that, but over 800,000 of us now have ourselves linked via that website to every single misdemeanor, probate decision, etc., that we’ve ever been involved in. (Obviously, felons should not have voted, BUT they also went after the mentally ill!)

    You know, my husband and I have been talking about what to do IF my son happens to be tremendously successful at this (long-shot, to be sure, but….), and this is our decision:

    1) we will never take one dime of money in gifts or cash paybacks he may earn from this endeavor; instead, we will ask to see receipts for those amounts given to a charity of our choice, such as the ASPCA (have been rescuing animals for over 55 yrs now).

    2) we will stick to our guns on asking him to seek outside help to evaluate his involvement in a group that builds it’s wealth on the backs of others, most of whom like the rest of us, are feeling desperate at times in this economy.

  94. musthavebeenterriblemother permalink
    August 24, 2012 7:52 am

    @wevelieved: here’s how they developed some of these TOOLS philosphically, at least that’s how it looks to me:

    FROM:GEORGE GUZZARDO, May 31, 2012

    [or in mother’s own words, a better title would be: A Conspiracy Theory and Philosophical Ponzi Scheme]

    1) “Thanks to the Mental Fitness Challenge and Orrin Woodward I have witnessed how new information is helping people achieve better results in relationships, finances, business production, job performance, and parenting just to name a few. You can read the testimonies on the LIFE site about those achieving life – changing results. Application of new information appears to be making a difference in their lives. People are finding progress with important components of their lives. Up till now, they were doing what they were taught. Were the principles we were taught prior to this wrong? This is demonstrated by the lack of effectiveness of the current information throughout our society.

    Is it possible that a great majority throughout our Western Civilization don’t have a clear understanding of the principles that had been effective for so long?”

    2) George Guzzardo: “Let’s compare some of today’s trends as a result of changing beliefs and underlying principles.

    1. * Private property is becoming less abundant as result of the real estate bubble and mismanaged lending.

    2. * A progressive income tax is being put into effect (40% +). Income tax is a form of private property confiscation.

    3. * Privacy laws are being abolished. Privacy is another form of private property.

    4. * The state has monopolized banking and credit by creating the Federal Reserve Board.

    5. * We have a monopoly in the communication system as demonstrated by the TV networks that dictate what we should think about.

    6. * The state has acquired (bale out) factories and other means of production as example in General Motors.

    7. * The state has married education and schooling with industrial production, in essence eliminating classical liberal education for career training.

    Principles at the time of our founding include:
    1. Rights come from God, not government” [End of quote #2]
    [Note from mother: there were 4 more rights that were sound in principle, so I just stopped here—wanted to say this so that I am not taking things out of context—it mostly concerned how to keep government in check and balance of power]

    George’s asterisked items:

    MY OWN OPINION: after reading this stuff over and over, I have to sit back and laugh—honestly, I could spend 10 pages of single-spaced text in refutation of some of this, because George via Orrin (I’m sure) are using boomerang and double-bind techniques to create the SAME distorted bottom line that I ended George’s quotes with: they need a Christian God right up front to make their business principles fly.

    But anyway, let me go through the “manifesto” points: and let me be clear: in each answer,

    one has to include: good old American etal financial greed and lobbyists that front them to keep the greed flowing, etc.; so is it more about the undermining greedy folks or is there really something wrong with Western Civilization?

    ASK YOURSELF: why was this blog by George written (or should I say, posted as written by Orrin because it reeks of Orrin, if you ask me)

    1) The real estate bubble, etc.: A big reason not included in this loss of private property was the SPECULATION ON WALL STREET THAT ENDED UP TO BE IT’S OWN INTERNAL PONZI SCHEME and OVER-INFLATED REAL ESTATE VALUES WITH THE BURGEONING OF SUB-PRIME BORROWERS GETTING LOANS THEY REALLY COULDN’T AFFORD–this is actually a very in-depth, convoluted topic that includes the real possibility that private banking institutions too greatly influence the Federal banking system–so on that score I will agree with Woodward….but it is so multi-faceted. .
    2) I can see why people earning hundreds of thousands to millions per annum would be concerned about helping to support the so-called “lazy” entitlement receivers by having to pay through it via taxes. And yes, if you work for someone and you want to keep getting raises and more benefits, whomever you work for has to make profit, albeit, we’ve seen top-ended profiteers that have become obscene.

    3) Okay, we want LESS government, according to George, BUT, at the same time, we’re losing privacy which to him is a form of private property. Um, ya can’t have it both ways, not with the technology we have. The Internet ALONE takes away all of one’s privacy today. Who will govern this Goliath? What about the damage to our privacy after 9/11, etc.? Yes, some serious mistakes were made when a business can check an old lady’s wet diapers at the airport because because some uneducated dope at a ticket counter is worried she might be a terrorist!

    4) The Federal Reserve Board: created in the early 20th century, around 1907 to combat repeated financial panics, especially the panic of 1907. It evolved over time—it had to survive the Great Depression. It has its flaws, to be sure, and there were early Democrats who screamed long and hard to get the initial proposed act modified.

    5) Okay, now he’s hollering about the TV monopolization problems and what info gets disseminated to us. WHO, one might ask, would George have as the protective overseer to this goliath problem—kind of like point #3

    6) Oh, please! Yes, and some a-holes got away with an on-going bankrupting the Social Security we paid in for a lifetime, too!! They took our money and bailed out Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac (yes, that’s right: Fannie Mae, for example, backed loans made to sub-prime borrowers when the greedy were grossly over-assessing the value of property—subprime essentially not qualified borrowers)—backed by Fannie Mae SO NOW, for example, SS IS NOTHING BUT AN ENTITLEMENT AND WE BOOMERS ARE SUPPOSEDLY BANKRUPTING THE SYSTEM COMPLETELY BY 2033. To say nothing of this: most of our gross product in this country—up to 70%—hinged on the auto industry. So bailouts happened…not saying that those in charge have always made the best choices for her people….but life happens in a “context”…it doesn’t necessarily mean it’s been an entire 20th into 21st Century Conspiracy to turn us into cattle: EXCEPT PERHAPS, IN THE BUSINESS GREED SECTOR, OF WHICH A FAT CAT IS HERE QUOTING ON THE EVILS OF/ABOUT! What a sick, sad, sorry hoot.

    7) Wrong education/loss of liberal arts educations: what a sack of poppycock!! As if the White House or other government offices single-handedly are trying to take away the learning of history and arts and humanities in order to dumb down it’s citizens (unchecked TV does well enough on that factor alone when it comes to indoctrinating children).

    EXAMPLE: medical needs, such as in the wars Woodward so admired produced well-trained, (but not for broad-spectrum leadership roles): Registered Nurses coming out of 2 year technical programs. Situations produced admirable results. Our soldiers were not getting adequate care—a safely-practicing, well-trained RN was able to be produced in as little as 2 years.

    EXAMPLE: let’s face it—right now you almost can’t get a job in social work with the 4 yr degree, but there ARE jobs in the science/tech industry, at least more than the other—need will dictate, too, what pops up next, just like online master’s degrees.

    8) And then there’s the big kahuna bottom line, ending George’s quotes: mankind, at least Westernized mankind (who must, of course, subscribe to the commonly thought of Christian god) gets their rights from God ONLY, and no one / nothing else.

    He and Orrin NEED YOU to believe this poppycock, as long as they get away with picking your pocket for their worthless products. And, I’m sorry, but you get the rights from your established society you are born into—or else you really would have mass chaos. It’s what you do with them when you think you can make life better for yourself AND fellow mankind (but to create this REVOLUTION, one must be altruistic, one must remove all ego/ethnocentric beliefs, or you get the decimation of tribes and nations all over again JUST LIKE YOU ARE SEEING IN DEFECTORS FROM TEAM/LIFE).

    Final assessment, given by me, using a brief definition from something (again) as simple as Wikipedia:
    “Megalomania is a psycho-pathological condition characterized by delusional fantasies of power, relevance, or omnipotence. Megalomania is characterized by an inflated sense of self-esteem and overestimation by persons of their powers and beliefs’”

    There should be no doubt left that this group is headed by megalomaniacs. They want you to be initially unhappy and disillusioned. Without it, they have nothing to sell you.

  95. Mike Collins permalink
    August 24, 2012 10:02 am

    So, usedtobe, you don’t think the majority of Americans are already unhappy and disillusioned?

  96. Mike Collins permalink
    August 24, 2012 10:04 am

    Sorry, that was for musthavebeen

  97. musthavebeenterriblemother permalink
    August 24, 2012 10:25 am

    @Mike Collins: that’s not for me to ponder or theorize upon. What I am trying to do here is to uncover the philosophical foundations of a type-B business with a slyly developed pyramid atop a pyramid and a pyramid within a pyramid sales business scheme that is using the mainstream concept of a Christian God and certain chosen aspects of their focus where there’s a 99% built-in chance of failure to begin with. And since it’s cohesive, founding factor to “prove” they are correct has the superglue of the non-provable concerpt of Faith, they can even get by saying: if you fail, you did not listen to we representatives of this God….and it’s all YOUR fault if you fail.

  98. musthavebeenterriblemother permalink
    August 24, 2012 10:35 am

    Correction and a thought: concerpt=concept. RE: disilusioned populace: I’d ask that question of those who live in that back roads of Calcutta during the next moonsoon, or for that matter, the unfortunate residents of tent cities of Florida and California. Then look in the mirror and ask: is it REALLY TRUE that welfare entitlements are handed out to the LAZY? (Grand Poohbah’s own words, not mine)

  99. Mike Collins permalink
    August 24, 2012 11:02 am

    For your information terrible, I also need that Christian “G”od

  100. musthavebeenterriblemother permalink
    August 24, 2012 11:06 am

    @Mikd: Sorry again for the typos–this is very hard to get used to not being able to see darker letters while typing in this blog box–it’s light gray and I’m 62 😉 I don’t spot them until I reread and get embarrassed.

    But, in rereading my prior long post on Manifesto and God points from George G., I’m just sitting here wondering why, Mike, you’d even ask me such a question in the first place.

    Of course there’s disillusioned people here in America……but we’re dealing with BUSINESS people (who are bringing in other unqualified to teach and counsel types) who are sermonizing that they have the answers to the decline of Western Culture (this includes far more than the USA, of course).

    Did ya ever notice that they don’t much mention the third world countries and/or other non-westernized peoples? If they did, then there’d be a whole lot more to answer for and building a business supposedly founded upon what modern-day, average people think their religion and concept of their own God is begins to crumble.

    Why would it crumble? Well, don’tcha know: it’s THEIR OWN FAULTS for living in the decimated refugee camps, etc. Or: it would start to crumble if the people have some other “paganistic” Faith in opposition to what the other 1/6th of the planet believes to be, i.e., the Christian God.

    In the quote I gave: George Guzzardo wiped out all of with this: only his God can give people their rights. Sorry, but this is about as megalomaniacal as it gets. And this, my friend, is how Western supposedly “civilized” people invaded, concquered, proselytized, and marginalized native peoples to begin with.

    If one applies the quality portion of what the Grand Poohbah teaches: you’d learn a lesson from the true “legacy” of Christopher Columbus, etal. YET, in their own way, they are doing the SAME thing with this “business” called LIFE….only NOW, to get started, the rape and conversion is turned inward on itself, all under the guise of religious guidance and every last thing that’s wrong with America.

  101. musthavebeenterriblemother permalink
    August 24, 2012 11:25 am

    @Mike Collins (and Mike: I’d appreciate it if you stopped the childish “terrible” reference to myself–if you must, just call me “mother”, okay?)

    C’mon, Mike: this is NOT about your individual right to a belief system. From my standpoint, what I have said in the last Guzzardo dissection is about: the absolute bastardization of the good in holding to a Christian faith. This is NOT a philosophical debate about the existence of a god/God (yes, dear, I caught your intentional capitalization and know why you did it). I will repeat this: this is NOT about your right to have a FAITH to find solace in; this IS about shady, infiltrative business philosphy which my bind innocent, believing people to them in the hopes, shall we say: of finding earthly riches for everyone who listens to them.

    So: what’s your beef? I’m only using their own words to dissect to the core philosphy. I only ask: climb above what I consider to be a sophomoric attitude against me because I declare myself an atheist/naturalist: this ain’t about what you and I choose to believe in.

  102. Mike Collins permalink
    August 24, 2012 12:03 pm

    @”mother”: thanks for the lecture. I also caught your deliberate lower case “g” in God and know why you did it.
    This also is not the place for you to spout your anti Christian or atheist views either. I’m sure you’re smarter than me, you’ve already established that. So let’s not turn this into a pissing match between you and I.
    Just stay on topic and leave your thoughts and/or feelings about my God for another blog.

  103. Mike Collins permalink
    August 24, 2012 12:05 pm

    I would also include inferences, no matter how subtle

  104. musthavebeenterriblemother permalink
    August 24, 2012 12:19 pm

    @Mike: sorry, kiddo, but you are the one who took it off topic. What I did was do a direct post from George Guzzardo who basically decided to end the 9 point rant with references to the Manifesto by saying: 1. rights are given by God. Remember: these guys are making references to civil rights and business rights and education rights, etc., here in America, too

    Again, this has NOTHING to do with you and the choices you make in your life regarding which faith you choose to follow. It matters not if it’s God or god in typed print, for that is not the point here.

    I, too, wish they kept it–god/God and religion out of their BUSINESS MODEL, so that it NEVER had to be brought up.

    I believe AMTHRAX has approved speaking about religion and God here as it relates to the TEAM/LIFE business. This was done more than 24 hrs ago, so yes, I do not see any need for a “pissing contest”, either, BUT in like manner: if I am allowed to continue, I will not allow you to BULLY away the rights AMTHRAX has granted in relationship to this discussion of TEAM/LIFE, simply because you have a belief system and want no mention of it made.

  105. musthavebeenterriblemother permalink
    August 24, 2012 12:28 pm

    Addendum to Mike C: did you know that nowadays, lowering the case letter from “G” to “g” is not meant as disrespectful? It’s done in a literary sense, when one wants to reach others who may hold a different “god” to be the only true “God.” (not disrespectful in the sense of, for example, like when were were kids and the nuns would bloody our knuckles if we forgot to capitalize it because we were being lazy or defiant in spelling class)

  106. Mike Collins permalink
    August 24, 2012 12:37 pm

    “musthavebeenaterriblemother” you win! Consider yourself notified.

  107. musthavebeenterriblemother permalink
    August 24, 2012 12:40 pm

    Mike C: okay….let me give you an example, directly from TEAM/LIFE that I was the victim of, too, and I’m going to back myself up several decades and say: I am a Christian Catholic who was taught: Honor Thy Father and Thy Mother as one of the quality, long-lasting dogmatic foundations of most Christian Faiths.

    Suddenly, a grown child of mine, who for a matter of weeks, was under the tutelage of this organization, is spewing obscenities like: I am no longer to be trusted and for various reasons because of: mediocre education, poor “vision”, etc., all hurled in a snotty manner at the top of his lungs.

    Mike: WHERE and FROM WHOM did he get this? This is the bastardization of the good things, the healthy things that Christianity sects teach and instill. I had to get bashed because I refused the $50 membership and place he had saved for me at a meeting.

    Mike, there’s plenty of defectors on here who admit they got caught up in it, too, and they, too, believed religion is/was being used in the wrong way. It ain’t got a hoot to do with me trying to talk ANYONE out of their religion—that’s a personal thing.

  108. Mike Collins permalink
    August 24, 2012 12:43 pm

    To the rest of you: I will enjoy reading some of your posts if and when I find them between the shorts books being written here a select few.

    Those of you writing these books I can assure you thAt most people are too ADD to spend the several minutes necessary to get through all of it. POST AWAY!!!!!!!!

  109. musthavebeenterriblemother permalink
    August 24, 2012 12:45 pm

    Mike: consider myself notified of what?

  110. musthavebeenterriblemother permalink
    August 24, 2012 12:53 pm

    Oh, Mike: now I get it. You want to moderate not only the content, but the length of posts, too,

    but never mind that in a sense of fairness, by me taking direct quotes and references to TEAM/LIFErs writings, that I am careful with quotes and blog footnoting (if one is taking material from them) if my purpose is to criticize them for the things they say. The idea is to let others see the exact words of the Poohbahs and make up their own minds, too.

    It’s a free country: you do NOT have to read anything I post–it is childish to keep coming back with cryptic statements and I, for one, will ignore you from here on in, unless you persist in personal attacks. I don’t know what to say about you being a little too lazy to use the scroll button to bypass me on any particular list, dear.

  111. freedomhaha permalink
    August 24, 2012 4:57 pm

    What are some active tangible steps that we can take in stopping/slowing down TEAM LIEf cult in order to save lives?

  112. Mike Collins permalink
    August 24, 2012 5:25 pm

    freedomhaha: teach them about compensation and allocation of profits. Learn it yourselves so you can blow holes in their rhetorical arguements. Watch the vieos til you can draw it out on paper for them if need be.

  113. Mike Collins permalink
    August 24, 2012 5:25 pm


  114. musthavebeenterriblemother permalink
    August 24, 2012 7:54 pm

    @freedomhaha: I didn’t realize until this evening that Mike C. is more pragmatic and on the numbers end of things—he can feel free to correct me on an assumption here, but I think it sounds like Mike would like to prevent people from getting involved in the first place just by showing the common sense built in failure rate of the money making? (And that’s a very good thing–the whole thing would collapse in a short time if folks listened to him.)

    As for me, I’m approaching LIFE gripes differently as a wounded parent, and in a research-way that comes more natural to me: since what they do in LIFE is legal at the moment, the only way I think I’ll have to even begin to be able to try to come public with any claims regarding damage it does/did to our family, I’m going to have to establish this: uncover their basic beliefs (base assumptions developing into their own indoctrination and subjegation of members) with intent to defraud.

    I’ve gotten my heinie in trouble twice on here because, most unfortunately, LIFE weaves the fabric of their actual low-mfg-cost sale items side of the biz with training and re-indoctrination about everything from Ancient Greece to Nazisms to Keeping Up With the Kardashians (being faecetious here, but you get my drift) to finally but certainly not least, preying upon citizenry about religion. (this is my true agenda, and I like taking the time to actually copy and put some of their more outrageous blog quotes on my postings first because: I need to be accurate AND if it disappears off the sites, there’s proof it was once there)

    If we can’t get people to listen to the numbers, and one hears one sad story after another, how else will they ever be curbed if not by charges of something that actually DOES break apart the fabric of a family unit when/if there is an intent to defraud? Someone tell me, because I haven’t slept well in two weeks since our family was put asunder by my son’s indoctrination..

  115. musthavebeenterriblemother permalink
    August 24, 2012 10:01 pm

    @freedomhaha: Eureka?! I actually jumped out of bed to type this to you. I just caught an American Greed show. Here’s how they got a business owner:

    Who: Steven Warhak

    What: selling Enzyte herbal male enhancement drug and sister drugs, etc., which were not only found to be essentially worthless, albeit not harmful to humans, BUT also,

    they had a practice of holding peoples’ credit cards “hostage” on a monthly basis, charging when items were not wanted and neglecting to stop charging their cards for months on end, even after repeated contacts

    Next: the feds finally show up and confiscate 13000 documents, etc., but one of them is especially damning (will be the punch line)

    What Warshak does in court: whines to the judge that the company grew so fast and mistakes were made that they’d try to correct. Yada yada yada—one can just about imagine what the defense entailed.

    The End Play: proscecutors show damning internal emails but especially an email where it’s said straight out (paraphrased): we’ll do this, and that, and what the heck, we don’t care if you have to rob granny’s credit card–let’s bleed the suckers.

    RESULT (punch line): INTENT TO DEFRAUD as shown by concrete written proof as to what was going on behind closed doors, behind the scenes. Do not pass Go; do not collect $200….

    This is what I mean…they may have gotten away taking thousands of payments they were not entitled to but for one thing: they left a written legacy of intent to defraud. (Only in LIFE’s case, one also has the hurdle of independent contractor status to deal with).

    Example: could the “art” of domestication to keep those brought in dependent upon them to bleed the pocket of the dependents be a form of intent to commit fraud? I have no idea–not in corporate, civil or constitution law here–truly asking.

    LIFE operates almost like a “secret society” , and with upline almost “at will” invoking of whatever part of the indoctrination (interpreted by many different people brought into the biz) that a poohbah above you wants to use to get with the program and ‘be all you can be’ and go ‘power player’ (right?). To avoid a he said/she said weak court defense, one almost has to get them on their written words. The written words they sell, by most accounts are pretty mainstream, BUT due to what goes on in the rest of it does not seem to be.

    sorry in advance for typos…eyes bad at this hour with this light gray text being typed into blog box and no spell checker. And for anyone with a gripe about length–um, had to be.

  116. freedomhaha permalink
    August 25, 2012 2:58 am

    Mother- I agree that we need both types of people in order to stop TEAM. I quit the TEAM cold instantly when I read the comp plan analysis found on this site by Brent. However, just because I think like that does not mean everyone else will. That is why we need people like you on the other side as well. The PC in TEAM cult says so many things that are horrible from stage when used in this setting. What I would caution you though Mother is to try and stay away from political and religious discussions on here. I would hate to see someone get turned off to this site on to the cult because of our back and forth about those topics. I completely understand that sometimes this is unavoidable due to the way TEAM drags Christianity through the mud with this evil business plan.

  117. Brent Hansen permalink
    August 25, 2012 5:43 am

    @freedomhaha, brilliant words of advice for all of us. Thanks!

  118. musthavebeenterriblemother permalink
    August 25, 2012 6:03 am

    freedomhaha: I see your point of view, but then, alas, there is no use trying to find out the underpinnings of what makes people like Woodward and Brady etal “tick”,(more seriously, their agenda) because the business is so full of “politics” (as you put it—but after reading the treatises, I would enclude all of Western Civilization’s historic and current socioeconomic and international policies, etc) and alas, again: how they are bastaridizing religion. There is nothing they do that does NOT have these underpinnings. It’s like saying: oh, you can post blog answers here anytime, you just can’t use the keyboard to type.

    Yesterday, all I did was point out one enormous assumption of that group’s (after Guzzardo referenced America today to Hilter’s Germany) was point out how he wiped out: all different aspects of rights, be they local, State of Federal by saying all rights were granted by God. I got attacked for it without the person actually reading it.

    Some on this board are just as prejudiced in their own ways: some want censorship of what they don’t want to hear, even though they have the choice not to read it. Some cannot tolerate a Christian-turned-Atheist pointing out obvious, overt subversions of Christianity used by a company in an effort to get to the bottom of things–instead, they choose to believe I have the hidden agenda of UN-proselytizing. Worse, I saw everyone here get bashed by a poster that: you are all too ADD (Attention Deficit Disorder) to even bother reading.

    There lingers here on this blog of posters (no offense meant to Anthrax personally–I think this person has been fair), it’s own version of inability or refusal to even just take a one-eyed peek at what happened to them from deeper propaganda-evidence another realizes and writes about the biz . So, with that, I shall retire and seek a place which allows more freedom of word-thought and encourages investigation and at the minimum, scholarly politeness and debate.

    Just dumbfounded though, because through most of the sad stories, losing money was just a part of it—it was the psychological devastation wreaked by LIFErs that seem the worst. And yet it’s wrong of me to point out how ‘religion’ was actually subverted and used against them?

    A special good-bye to “webelieved”: sorry, kiddo: you were wrong when you asked me to continue. .


  119. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    August 25, 2012 9:18 am

    @webelieved: just when your reply of hope came into my email inbox, I had already dumped the “musthavebeenterriblemother” public handle and unfollowed AMTHRAX, so I went back in and sent a ‘follow’ request. Since Avatars got me all messed up last time (wordpress is very confusing to me), I’d taken out new email addys, too–I don’t know if I have this set up right.

    I just want everyone to know: I am NOT pooh-poohing your own personal belief system.

    Instead, and to keep on point here with a long sentence: I have wondered why,

    1) that in a highly infiltrative business like LIFE, that purports to have the only true/correct material to produce a cultural Revolution in some sort of bizarrely cloaked altruistic theme,

    2) may it not have been more advantageous for the LIFE group to approach their teaching-major-money-making portion as the 12-step Program does for alcoholics and drug-addicts.

    3) The old 12-step (that is not without it’s flaws, to be sure) at least encourages people to use their higher power/Higher Power (however one wants to capitalize it or not, so as not to offend).

    4) That way, there’s never a fight–there’s never even a secret hint of: “I am better than you are” egocentrism over basic tenets of any one faith or sect or those that choose a more natural path.

    The way it is: Poohbah and Leader LIFErs may well “preach” lovely things on a Sunday…but I ask: what goes on behind closed doors between upline and downline, and across Poohbah “edicts” to wreak the havoc it has in ordinary peoples’ lives who bought the lie. They also would love to see internal strife here.

    Somewhere here, there’s a terrible rift, a dichotomy with their teaching and selling–and they know it. My suspician, backed up by reading their own words is: it’s steeped in Greco-Roman Culture and Religion all the way up through the entire course of Western Civ., and this broad spectrum has been turned into the surreptitious glue with which to bind one to them.

    You know, again, I realize this is long….but what I actually said here would take less than two minutes on a telephone. For clarity, especially sometimes on touchy subjects, one cannot just be brief, especially if one uses a lot of space between sentences for better clarity, i.e., some logistical problems, too..

  120. Cali permalink
    August 25, 2012 9:19 am

    @webelieved: you are so right about the spiritual and psychological abuse being worse than the financial abuse. You can always make more money even if you have to dig yourself out of a hole. It’s really hard to shake mind control or build yourself back up when you’ve been ripped apart on the inside. I think many people are more attracted to the love bombing that goes on moreso than the promise of financial freedom. Some aren’t of course but it’s these vulnerable people who really get the shaft. When I think about what I lost with Team, I don’t think about the money, rather the time I spent wondering how I could fix myself to be good enough to be able to pay my bills and feed myself. That’s the kicker.

  121. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    August 25, 2012 9:58 am

    @Cali: being a victim of it…I wonder if it’s like a wandering in the desert, shell-shocked with the gnashing of teeth? That it seemed like such a sense of community with a common goal, surrounded in some real and some pseudo-love and even a common God in Sunday services. And yet, in the end, there you were, wondering if truly, this was “all your fault” that something went amiss–that you just weren’t good enough, or smart enough, etc. This is where LIFE’s sheer and utter despicability (and eventually, I hope, intent to deceive criminality) lies: they know only a few will succeed to the ‘Promised Land’ of riches and the life one ‘deserves’ (and for reasons like this, we need the math-minded ones to expose every payment scheme for the frauds they are, too). Besides a unique PTSD phase, I wonder in clinical Psychology, they might ponder if this couldn’t be categorized as: the classic double-bind technique. Example: enticing a child to come up the staircase to get a cookie you are offering, and then kicking that child down the steps, laughing at the child to insinuate how stupid they were to fall for the cookie in the first place (source 1: movie, Sybil; source 2: DSM book of psych disorder coding)

  122. Cali permalink
    August 25, 2012 4:56 pm

    Yes I would say that it is like that in certain ways; For me, Team baggage was more like a lingering anchor. When I first found this blog I said “no, this cannot be true…” but slowly it started to sink in I experienced a huge, major letting go of stuff I had no idea was in me. It was a bit of a shock yes. And I haven’t been involved for years! I realized that I have been in a lot of abusive situations my whole life and understanding that this was just one more thing was quite sad because of how far out of the way they went to make it seem like the answer to all of my problems, when really they were just blowing them up bigger. I can honestly say the only thing that Team helped me do was learn how to have a positive attitude (but I could have just listened to my grandmother for this one). That helped me get to a place where I could be responsible for my feelings and eventually get therapy for PTSD. I cannot say my involvement with Team caused most of what I had to work out, but it added to it for sure.

  123. Cali permalink
    August 25, 2012 4:58 pm

    And you know what? I am really good at Math.

  124. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    August 26, 2012 3:55 am

    @webelived and Cali: you know…here’s a review of some Orrin double-speak. As usual, sorry about the length, but, to be fair to Woodward, I had to list two full paragraphs of his quotes so that readers could put it into context and think for themselves. This, my friends, is where his passion and logic lies for Team LIFE:

    The Following quotes I took from Orrin Woodward will make this post much longer, but in handing out criticism, it only seems fair to list the actual words said. Obviously, if I want to make any commentary afterward, it’ll be even longer yet. Skip this post if it’s too long for you. But I hope persons like Mesha, who wrote a poignant account of her months in LIFE sees this—hopefully, it will help to show her why she felt uneasy in LIFE.

    Logistics on reposting quotes: because on a blog, Orrin’s paragraphs may look long, the only changes I made were extra gaps between sentences to improve readability and to give it the shocking “punch” it needs. (Now we know why he is so obsessed with Ancient history leading to all that is wrong with America, etc.) The quotes are placed between the black divider lines.

    My Agenda: let me up front state: no one needs to ask me if I agree or disagree with some of Woodward’s tenets, for that is NOT the point—the point IS: he’s using it to front a business where there’s a 90 to 95% (using Mike Collin’s stats from another thread on Amthrax) or higher built-in failure rate (see also: Federal Trade Commission analyses) in a system he’s claiming is truly free because a “domesticated” (yes, I hammer that word in that I got from Woodward’s own study of WWII military infiltration tactics, i.e., hopelessly dependent if they’ve been in it for awhile and quit their other real job) member can come and go at will.

    Tongue in cheek, I call his leadership foundations my own:
    The Preface to: ‘Anarchists Guide To Getting Fleeced in Team LIFE’
    “Scams, Schemes, & Coercion
    Posted by Orrin Woodward on June 26, 2011 (

    As a Top 10 Leadership Guru, I cannot sit by idly and watch Americans lose their freedoms without speaking up.

    No scam can last unless backed by a monopoly of force/coercion.

    Government is the only true monopoly of force available in any society.

    Coercion requires force, which involves either government intervention or mafia type tactics.

    Free enterprise businesses, like Network Marketing, cannot be a scam, since people are free to come and free to go, they will simply leave and the scam will collapse.
    In fact, LIFE TEAM is a model of free enterprise where people are free to grow or free to leave.

    Government scams like social security, income taxes, and fiat money inflation [note from me: means derives its value from regulation], to name just a few, take advantage of the masses, since the masses are forced to participate against their will, whether their needs are being met or not.

    Learning and defending American freedoms, against the encroachment of coercive government interventions, has become a key educational plank in my readings, writings and speeches of late.”
    LOL!! Honestly, I don’t know where to start here, in an effort to keep it short. This seems to be a Friday Night RAW fight with governments pitted against MLMs:
    Coercion Monopoly = Scam;
    Government = Coercion Monopoly; therefore:

    From this, one can only glean that: Woodward either wants to be left to roam free as a multi-millionaire to create his own Utopian state with him as the titular head of his own world of unregulated multi-level marketing “free enterprise” , or is it, perhaps leading his own form of multi-level marketing Bolshevism (a façade of centralist democracy which ends up with a a party enforcer-dictatorship—sort of like what Lenin and his buddies pulled in Russia in the early 20th century, i.e., the workers get a vote but then it gets enforced, no matter what, and we all know how THAT ended up).

    What one finds amazing here is (and I’m not sure if Woodward made a sentence structure error or not, but this is how it reads, and it may be very telling):

    Re-quoting again so you don’t have to go back and find it: Woodward said: “ Free enterprise businesses, like Network Marketing, cannot be a scam, since people are free to come and free to go, they will simply leave and the scam will collapse.”

    Now wait a minute here. Supposedly

    Coming and going at will in business=free enterprise

    Network Marketing (specifically MLMs in his case) = free enterprise

    Free enterprise/MLM businesses = NOT a scam, BUT…

    When you leave the MLM/free enterprise, which is not a scam (but yet he says scams require government force higher up in quote) = the scam collapses.


    I’m not even going to touch upon him calling Social Security a scam…and I’m not going to address the fact that we average Americans are in the horrorific housing spiral we’re in due to the “speculation on no tangible commodity”, i.e., what the stock market’s own internal ponzi schemers created which caused our country to come down around our heads due to no regulation back in the late 1990’s, etc.….let’s just end it here. This look at Orrin Woodward quotes took up 1 and 1/2 typed pages of space in size 10 font.

  125. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    August 26, 2012 4:21 am

    necessary correction: the quotes I took were from ‘’…in the long post, I had forgotten the second ‘d’ in that address

  126. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    August 26, 2012 4:28 am

    Oh, hey, @webelieved: I see Hawkins’s Wisconsin Team is called: Team STEALTH Wisconsin, and did you see my post on another thread re: his house is absolutely fabulous—it truly is–he’s got a pic of it on his blog site. Too bad it was “earned” off of a lot of others’ hard work and his own philosophy of: if you don’t get into LIFE, you are not to be trusted and/or likely broke. Kinda takes away the grandeur of it all, at least for a Mom who’s grown son just got sucked into the black hole of STEALTH.

  127. Mike Collins permalink
    August 26, 2012 5:20 am

    Does anyone know where Vogel has been? He was the master commenter. Short, sweet, and to the point. I’ve learned a thing or two from him. What a breath of fresh air he would be right about now………

  128. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    August 26, 2012 5:31 am

    Mike: No one is making you read anything—it is fruitless to constantly come at me in a surreptitious manner (in an OFF POINT manner, as you once put it) , as if looking at Woodward’s philosophy and underpinnings of his business is pointless. We’re all on the same side, and I do not keep coming at you in a snotty, underhanded manner–in fact, I asked for your opinion on Mar Mili-what-ever’s utube video on the payment system. Anyone reading backwards can see what you are attempting to do here, i.e., trying to discredit anything anyone else has to say if you think it’s worthless or too long. Half of the long-windedness in the “scam analysis” above was to NOT offend, short-tempered, short-sighted blog post responders as you have done and continue to do. Oh, and, um I guess it’s okay if you post a mile-long list of the people who watched your video, eh? Did I complain about THAT? .

  129. Cali permalink
    August 26, 2012 5:49 am

    @webelieved: I also never bought into not listening to the music I loved, or hanging out with people who weren’t in I would never ask to be… That’s where I went wrong and realized I would never make it and eventually let it go. I also started to ask questions about having to NEVER stop building based on my knowledge of the compensation plan. By my calculations you could never really retire so I guess access to my brain because I didn’t allow myself to go completely under saved me too. I am sorry for the people who really dedicated much more than I did to this system. I just got a taste and can relate but can’t really understand the feeling of waking up on another planet – I can only imagine. I’m aslo sorry to the family members who have been hurt by “losing” someone to this scheme.

  130. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    August 26, 2012 5:54 am

    @webelieved: re: Hawkins…why would he need a loan from the Gods Above, though, if he’s pulling in a quarter of a million dollars per month? I’m still choking on how that would be possible for him to earn, but that’s what someone said.

  131. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    August 26, 2012 6:08 am

    Cali: you actually stopped listening to music you had previously liked? Why? Was the music considered subversive by the community?

    webelieved: got an idea for conflict resolution: why not ask AMTHRAX to start a blog line that specifically looks at what makes Woodward tick, i.e., his assumptions that lead to methods for getting people to believe the dream for LIFE? Uncovering hidden goals to achieve “love bomb community fleecing” can’t be achieved in one-paragraph summations/opinions, especially when new people come on, and in so many posts, they just see sad stories, angry posts, or insider words, etc. Bringing in Woodward’s etals, belief systems is just as important to stop people from getting involved as is the revelation of the money payouts.

  132. Cali permalink
    August 26, 2012 6:22 am

    No, the tape deck in my car was broken so I listened to the radio. But they always said “how much money has a 15 dollar Smashing Pumpkins CD made you… these tapes will get you thinking the right way and you will succeed… You are what you listen to, I used to listen to Nirvana all the time and that guy ended up killing himself – what was I thinking? Why would i want to program myself to be like that guy?” And all I could think was “That guy actually saved me from killing myself,” as did a lot of music so I didn’t give it up. I also didn’t give beer. Beer is good. It made me happy, still does sometimes. I didn’t start going to church but I defended the god part of the business. I listened ot the tapes though, a lot with a walkman.

  133. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    August 26, 2012 6:30 am

    Cali: what was the “god part of the business”? That’s always interested me as an ex-Catholic, because I see so many threads of religion flowing through this MLM, too.

  134. Cali permalink
    August 26, 2012 6:38 am

    They always pray before major functions and talk about their dedication to Christianity. Whenever a speaker professed their love of Christ from stage there was thunderous ovation for what seemed like hours. I heard someone compare the walk across stage (recognition for those who brought people to the function, had lots of people buying product and on system (tapes and books)) to a baptist revival.

  135. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    August 26, 2012 6:53 am

    Cali and webelieved: what surprises me is that a group that wants exponential expansion of downliners would target, specifically, Christians, because they’re missing out on billions and billions of people on the planet from other persuasions. (Never mind my naturalist persuasion–if I were interested in LIFE meetings, I’ve learned to sit through anything as an ex-Catholic and it wouldn’t bother me).

    Now, knowing that Woodward was once a deacon in a Baptist Church actually helps give me a perspective on meetings, too. Example: Baptists have always been a little more demonstrative in displaying gathering-zeal than historically, we Catholics were during a service. Nuttin’ wrong with displays, it just helps to paint a more complete picture.

    However, I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again: in this complicatedly-structured business, preying upon people’s faith in their God while you try to domesticate/make them dependent on you while concurrently you pick their pockets is reprehensible.

  136. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    August 26, 2012 7:01 am

    @webelieved: bwhahahahahaha!!!!!!!!!!! re: your “before someone bashes me….” You trying to stave off having to feel my blog-pain? hee hee.

    Hell’s bells, it doesn’t matter if we’re: Catholics, Baptists, Methodists, Lutherans, Episcopalians, Born Again Evangelicals, Moslems, Buddhists, Naturalists, Atheists, Voo-Dooists, Satanists, Wiccans, etc., does it? The objection here is as we said: getting lulled by the “brotherly love” as your pocket gets picked in a 90+% failure rate scheme that promised you that if you only LISTEN to them, you, too, can have the PROMISED LAND.

    My problem in digging up data is: because I am a Naturalist/Atheist, ex-Catholic, to some I appear as if I have, as Mike accused: an agenda on FAITH. Well, I guess if LIFE wasn’t exploiting peoples’ faiths and making it part of the big 8F schematic, it wouldn’t be necessary for it to come up, would it?

  137. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    August 26, 2012 7:04 am

    @webelieved: well, all I can say to LIFE is: good luck with the Dali Lama sellin’ books/tapes/brochures and attending meetings twice per week. So, what you are saying is: they DO want to proselytize, too?! It’s part of any god’s plan? (god word not capitalized due to multiple belief systems addressed)

  138. Cali permalink
    August 26, 2012 7:14 am

    Yes, isn’t that what Merchants of Deception talked about too? Vehicle for politcal recruitment? That is so shady. And you are right, it’s not ethical to deceive people like this.

    I am not Christian or Republican, and people can bash me all they want. I am not here to talk about that side of myself, only to help others coming across this site see that people have been lied to and manipulated and scammed out of their money.

    On a side note, here in Northern California, I have spotted Monavie bumper stickers and a biker with an entire suit with Monavie all over it. I was so tempted to go up to them and ask questions. I wouldn’t have known what it was if not for this site.

  139. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    August 26, 2012 7:24 am

    webelieved and Cali: yeah, i’ve got to finish Merchants of Deception. Cali, you know, the only reason I ever, in the first place, brought up my own “persuasion” when it comes to religion is so that I am honest with others about my own pre-conceived notions in dealing with the subject. Also, I once attacked Woodward, who constantly refers to Greco-Roman culture, that actual non-new-religion chroniclers of the era never made mention of this new religious leader—it was meant to slap Woodward with his own ancient history book, but I guess it came off differently.

    And webelieved: what did the Liberals actually say at paying to listen to that unannounced Repub speaker?

  140. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    August 26, 2012 7:29 am

    PS to webelieved: how could anyone on here think that their own ersonal faith is being questioned? That’s what I don’t get. Instead, they don’t see how Woodward’s businesses used it as a weapon to cloud their vision, even though “vision” is what is supposedly needed to get ahead? To surreptitiously validate his own shady practices of not letting people talk to one-another on crosslines? To confabulate with prayers enough and expound upon their devotion to the point where people didn’t really get much business value for their buck at meetings?

  141. Cali permalink
    August 26, 2012 7:35 am

    @Wisdom, I don’t think it’s wrong to state where you stand. I just meant if people start questioning my motives based on my non-christian non-republican belief system, I will ignore them. I’m a good person, a college grad and a mom. That last one is teaching me to really stop listening to opinions of myself or being very accomodating when asked for explanations. 🙂

  142. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    August 26, 2012 7:49 am

    @Cali: know exactly what you mean and it’s sound reasoning. And it sounds like a fine place to be with yourself as opposed to how you felt when first extricating yourself from Woodward’s businesses, too (not sure which one you were in). But how did you feel about these things while you were in it? For example: did they actually have you believing that a Nirvana song would lead you to commit drug-induced suicide like Cobain? I mean, and for example: was this discussed or told to you by an upliner? And I have a burning question: would any of those upliners come right out and tell my son not to listen to his parents’ advice, to turn his back on him because they are nothing more than dream-slayers?

  143. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    August 26, 2012 7:51 am

    cali: correction: to turn HIS back on THEM (we, the parents)

  144. Cali permalink
    August 26, 2012 8:03 am

    I actually heard the music thing at opens all the time. So it was said to new people, it wasn’t exactly -you’re gonna end up suicidal if you listen to… it was more subtle and “playful” if you will. Or they woul pick someone who was politicized -“Why would you want to listen to negativity all day? Emenim, yeah he’s real positive.” Only to someone who had been around would it seem like a “command” of sorts. And it’s bizarre but I wanted to believe that could happen- that someone could be persuaded by music like that but I knew better. Ever since my teenaged years when Metallica was blamed for a double suicide because they had the lyrics to Fade to Black with them (or in a notebook, or maybe not at all, could have been made up) I called BS because I knew die hard fans who were not suicidal, and because I knew what makes a person suicidal and it isn’t music.

    And yes, they would tell your son to not listen to anything you say because you have the wrong thinking. You’ve been “indoctrinated” yourself by the 95% thinking that keeps you broke and unhappy. (If you are not living large then yes, you are broke)

  145. Cali permalink
    August 26, 2012 8:07 am

    and thanks, my mind is in a much better place now.

  146. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    August 26, 2012 10:23 am

    test blog only–this thread was not working enough to answer webelieved’s question

  147. Mike Collins permalink
    August 26, 2012 10:24 am

    Watch video 3 at the 3:00 mark. It clearly states the only 0.3 % can possibly
    get to the leadership level. That’s 1 out of 301. However, I can guarantee you that’s it’s
    FAR less than this in reality.

    In a group of 300 people, 70% of all available compensation dollars goes to only
    5% of the group in a BEST case scenario. But 33.3% is saved for the top 0.3% Again, I can assure you it’s far less than this in REALITY.

    Our team is working on a follow up video that will be about 3-4 slides long. It
    will be a condensed version of the first series ( which, by the way, was an
    attempt to paint life’s comp plan in the best possible light)

    We are doing this because, in an attempt to be fair and objective, the series is
    a bit long and it does require watching more than once to fully understand what
    you are looking at.

    The condensed version will highlight the sheer, brutal reality of this thing called Life……..

    I will address the other issues i.e. my “rudeness” later when I have more time. For now….I am off to pick up my baby. Cheers!

  148. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    August 26, 2012 10:24 am

    webelieved: well, whatever was wrong with this thread seems fixed, but the answer to above question was on the “Summer” thread.

  149. Speak Your Truth permalink
    August 26, 2012 10:32 am

    The arguments of personal beliefs set aside. Great conversations, I leave for a while and see people are digging deep into the workings and processes of how the LIEf captures the minds of others. Wisdom, you are doing a great job of dissecting and I see your points and appreciate your in-depth knowledge and dedicated time you are spending to help others. This is of a huge value for the “understanding” of what happens to one psychologically. I agree the whole process has a tremendous power over people and is the most difficult to sort out.

    We all agree and commend Mike Collins & Brent Hansen for their straight forward approach, their clear, concise and remarkable efforts in bringing the evidence= mathematics! And it would seem logically then, that would be all that is needed or would be the 1st to understand for others to SEE and everyone would have their.. Aha moment, and wake up and get out, right? Nope..That may work for the all the temperaments: i.e. melancoly (detailed show me the numbers)-cholorics (I hate stupid people who are emotional).. but that is only 1/4 of the people : ) How will you reach and What will the rest need? We know There is no denying the mathematics! BUT I don’t agree that it works that way for All nor the majority. It isn’t that simple because we are dealing with PEOPLE that have been psychologically worked over, and to them the “mathematics” doesn’t interest them nor does it solve their problem of understanding how and what the hell happened to them.

    So, from my humble opinion, experience and perspective, I believe it to be very naive to think that having ONLY the understanding of the mathematics is all that is needed, doesn’t solve the most diffi”cult” problem. It only solves about ½ of the real problem(s) that these evil scammers perpetuate on all people who will suffer or have suffered if they get sucked in/or are in the game of MLM mind altering and twisting game of deception.
    I agree with webelieved, a person coming out seeks to help themselves and when you are coming out of this it is very difficult to explain with clarity what happens to you psychologically.

    IMHO, from my own dissecting of the process of sorting out and from my personal experience, I feel Wisdom you are nailing it. I see it the way webelieved and Cali do and agreed, the most damaging is the psychological and it desperately needs to be clearly addressed. We all have a lot to learn from the commenter’s and stories, which are those who if taken seriously tell us all what is been done and what will help them.

    I do believe all on here add tremendous value and bring their individuality and strengths. It has nothing to do with US and OUR OWN personal beliefs..they are selfish and irrelevant when we are trying to help others and I believe that only distracts and creates confusion for the person who comes here to do their own research to see others arguing. At least for me it is one of the things I most despise about the industry and LIEF training is the way they CONTROL everything right down to tell you how to think and what to believe! I don’t believe any one of us came here to do that to others.

    So all in all thanks to all of you for helping me and others with the good intent of purely helping others find their way out of the hell of MLM delusional fantasy world. This is a world wide spread disease, so I don’t think anyone of us take it lightly. The damage this causes, not just the person involved but their families, children, grandparents, mom, dads, brothers, sisters, friends,….It Does ripple through every life affected and at least I see it as deliberate damage done by a bunch of greedy controlling pick- pocketing cons. So, Thanks and I am learning much by reading all your posts. 🙂

  150. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    August 26, 2012 10:49 am

    Mike: couldn’t we just bury the hatchet here–no need to do anything else, at least with me. As for myself, when I first came on here, I realize I was so incensed and hurt at my son that I was spewing credentials and scientific points of view because of the horrible things he said–temporary Mom’s insanity in feeling like my life/dedication to surviving child/ personal accomplishments/dreams for the kid/family, acceptable behavior, etc., had all been trashed in some kind of an almost overnight binary star explosion. Right now, I just wanna get LIFE on their own published words because I’m not privy to behind-closed-doors and meetings–wish AMTHRAX would give us our own thread where we could look at those things without annoying others.

    As for the percentage stats: I did watch video 3 and I have the more depth-building examples from the actual paper LIFE Comp Plan.

    I still don’t get it: if you have 60,000 people total in LIFE, and say each PC has about 10,000 people under him/her, and let’s say members all buy everything on the list one time (about $1,428), how does this amount to a quarter of a million dollars a month income for a single PC?

    Is most of it hidden bonus then? (Assuming that the 60,000 could not possibly replicate itself with new memberships every month, etc., and assuming the total money generated from TOOLS of $85,860,000 comes in in that one first year). Are they still going to keep giving this PC 1/4 mil x 12 a year? What about the rest of the PCs and higher ups? There really wouldn’t be enough to go around, would there? I can’t apply the numbers because of the convoluted bonus system and one-time bonuses, etc.

    Too bad we’re not on the thread Amthrax set up for you in the “math department” 🙂

  151. Speak Your Truth permalink
    August 26, 2012 10:50 am

    Thanks so much MIKE, I appreciate what you do and will watch it, because unfortunately this was something I never knew about nor even had a second thought to disect while we were killing ourselves and others..”chasing the American Dream”… believing in the lie everyone was going to make it for sure didn’t think about them building in any guarantee to fail, call me stupid but that is how it was. They have many phrases and “handling objections” that you teach, repeat, which then you eventually believe yourself..but they teach you in many many ways not just to ignore the mathematics but you don’t even think about it. “If the dream is BIG enough, the facts DON’T Count!”

    No doubt you are making a difference, these videos shake people up and will help some people see the grim reality that you speak of!! Thanks a bunch for your help! 🙂

  152. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    August 26, 2012 11:02 am

    Speak: Thanks for your comment. FWI: I am musthavebeenterriblemother–changed it when I came back on at the request of webelieved. Like I just said to Mike: I wsh AMTHRAX would give us a thread that’s devoted to the exposure of the “internal work philosophy” being delivered as doctrine behind closed doors that can be gleaned from guru actual published works and blogs—that way, long posts like mine would not annoy Mike and others.

    And, I’ll say it every time: truly, honestly do NOT want to destroy someone’s inherent belief system. My son was raised Catholic, and it seems to me that after being in contact with LIFE, he tossed most of the 10 Commandments out the window. (sad smile)

  153. Speak Your Truth permalink
    August 26, 2012 11:15 am


    I hope do don’t mind me calling you wisdom, it is much easier and quicker. I have been catching up on some of the threads and did notice you changed your moniker but thanks for trying to say me some time. 🙂

    Your posts are very articulate, more importantly are helpful to me and am sure others, you certainly have the patience to disect and obviously have studied or are knowledgeable in many areas. As I have said before you are the force to be reckoned with for orrin and criminals.

    You and your time are exactly what this site needs to relate to a certain group of people, keep up the great work! 🙂

  154. Speak Your Truth permalink
    August 26, 2012 11:17 am

    oops,should say YOU don’t mind.

  155. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    August 26, 2012 11:35 am

    QUOTE: “I discovered my faith at a convention, I have found my best friends at a convention, I have laughed the most and had the most fun at a convention and I have discovered my purpose in life at a leadership convention.” (quote from K.S., multiple-years in Team Leadership, from her own blog)

    QUOTE: Also On K.S.’s blog site: “How does FacebookFgenerate 1 billion users in their online community – without adding one bit of tangible value to ones life?”
    One can only ponder that it must have been a sad, miserable life before this college grad in Phystical Therapy found Guzzardo, etal, eh? Is this REALLY how it happens?

    I see, however, that she has been well-indoctrinated and remains presumptuous, e.g., who are they to say Facebook does not add one bit of tangible value?

    Ohhhhhh, did they mean MONEY? LOL!! (Actually, you CAN sign up for a link to your OWN business on Facebook, and it begs the question: why are some leaders and poohbahs ON Facebook? LOL!) Actually, we ol’ farts get a lot of value, catching up about our grandkids, photos, etc., especially with folks we know that live on other continents, etc.

    Next time: “KS” also has a quote on her blog site dedicated to never taking handouts

  156. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    August 26, 2012 11:37 am

    Speak: wisdom is fine–one reason I got rid of the long handle

  157. Brent Hansen permalink
    August 26, 2012 1:10 pm

    Please allow me to share my opinion about the above discussion. Perhaps a study of the doctrinal or philosophical beliefs of the veneer Life leaders would appease the curiosity of some, and even give cause to doubt the sincerity of their teachings, it does however leave the door wide open for verbal controversy based on each of our particular paradigms. It is honestly hard to come to an understanding when discussions are based on totally subjective material.

    As I look down through Orrin’s blog, and sort through the “Life” jargon, I find three or four specific articles which I agree with, or could gain something from, they are,

    1. Leaders Build Other Leaders (I believe that)
    2. Dreams, Drama, and Conflict Resolution (Conflict resolution is critical to success)
    3. Stephen Covey’s Legacy (Covey has great material)
    4. Shoot The Light, The Gospel of John (I love the Bible, and the Lord)

    What makes this model particularly pernicious is the fact that Life teaches a thousand truths through their system, yet at the core is a lie. It is the lie that causes the devaluation of anything they may teach. One of my favorite quotes from Huckleberry Finn was what Huck said about not being able to pray a lie. I see a huge parallel between Huck’s profound statement about approaching God with a correct heart, and teaching concepts which are exemplified by the business model. If truth is the standard then the Life model is hypocritical.

    A good test about the value and viability of their material would be to place the Life materials on the shelf at Walmart. If the materials sold, you would know the business is valid, regardless of the compensation plan. I however tend to believe, that Life members are merely indentured customers who somehow hope to earn from a compensation plan they don’t even understand.

    I appreciate all of the comments on this blog yet tend to focus on the simplistic approach. Nothing exposes a company nor owners intent more than the allocation of profit dollars.

  158. August 26, 2012 1:24 pm

    @ageofwisdom51 – If you want to write a guest post that I can turn in a dedicated thread, email me amthrax (-at-)

  159. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    August 26, 2012 1:35 pm

    Amthrax:you caught me so deep in to Merchants of Deception at the moment…but it gave me an idea….do you have a “thread-start” that gives a synopsis of Merchants of Deception? And then perhaps we responders could then post actual proof from the current LIFErs, that even though Eric wrote the book in 2004, the precepts are alive and well in what is actually still spewed from LIFE, the 4th iteration of some of these 1990’s MLMrs in Amway? I am sitting here just mesmerized by Eric’s account—and I have heard some of the same words out of my own loved one’s mouth, not three weeks ago.

  160. August 26, 2012 1:46 pm

    I don’t believe there’s a post on this site which directly talks about Merchants of Deception. It’s certainly been spoken about in the comments section (or in a reference in one of my posts).

    The stuff that happens in MoD is certainly happening across many MLMs today. Orrin’s Amway lineage points back to Dexter Yager, so it’s no surprise that elements of his organization today mirror what you are reading in MoD.

  161. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    August 26, 2012 1:51 pm

    Brent: nice post, and I agree on much of what you wrote….except here’s the problem: what do people do who may come here but still don’t choose believe just the profit dollars? Why should they not think we’re skewing the numbers? How come it doesn’t match the fantasical claims of Marc M’s version on Utube? Know what I mean here?

    My son, for one, only sees Hawkins’s fancy house. Is there nothing else we should be allowed to look at and dissect, to get LIFE on it’s own words, etc.? This is why I asked Amthrax for a different thread line where we who want to could opine more deeply, and counter their claims with more/other historic and current socioeconomic truths, etc..

    AND, think of this: there’s lots of criticism out there because they think you guys are dwelling on Amway……well, how about showing them that the 90’s Amway techniques ARE alive and well in LIFE that’s still less than a year old. Orrin himself has admitted what some of his writings have focused on for the past year, etc.

  162. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    August 26, 2012 1:57 pm

    @Amthrax: yeah, but the problem is: some on here don’t like the longer, foot-nooted comparisons showing much of what Eric actually said in MoD shoing up on various posting threads, so maybe a thread referencing MoD by you could start it and those of us wishing to draw LIFE analogies of what’s being blogged/taught/instilled could be done. Note: I was surprised that so many of my “beefs” mentioned in the long posts are actually in a book written in 2004 🙂 So that’s why I asked you for a separate “thread start”….then the people it annoys don’t have to click on it or scroll down long posts.

  163. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    August 26, 2012 1:59 pm

    Amthrax: clarification, I meant: “…comparisons showing the same thing in LIFE that was actually mentioned by Eric in MoD” , i.e., some of my longer posts that got Mike and I cranked at each other.

  164. Mike Collins permalink
    August 26, 2012 2:14 pm

    Ok. I’m back.
    Firstly: this is not my blog and I am not, nor am I attempting to moderate it. I’ll remind the rest….it isn’t yours either.

    Secondly: if you will read what I actually said with a calm voice in your head you might find that I’m not being rude at all. I am attempting to draw attention to something that I think you might want to consider i.e. when you post a long, long, long comment then someone follows it with a long, long, long comment only to be followed by another long, long and even longer comment, it makes for a rather meandering read for some people.

    Suggestion: if you truly want people to read this blog because you want to help them, then consider condensing some of this info. If you have a lot to say consider breaking it up in to 2 or 3 posts. When I get on this blog and see 2 people going back and forth with comments that are 7-8-9 paragraphs long I DON’T read them and I can assure you most newcomers won’t either.

  165. Mike Collins permalink
    August 26, 2012 2:15 pm

    Third: @ Webelieved: I can assure you that I am not reading them. Although I’m sure you have already gathered that from my above comment.

    Forth: @Must-h-b-a-t-m: I appreciate your wit and the value you are attempting to bring here. I also feel your pain as well as the others pain commenting here. I know EXACTLY how all of you feel. You have NO idea.

  166. Mike Collins permalink
    August 26, 2012 2:16 pm

    However, I want all of you to understand this above anything else MLM. All of the things you talk about here are absolutely relevant and DO happen. THIS is what is important above all else: ALL of the abhorrent behavior that is discussed here in regard to ANY mlm starts at the beginning.

    In other words, if these were real business models NONE of these types of behaviors would be necessary. And they are not real business models because of the way the profits are distributed. PERIOD! END OF STORY!

    For example: Do you think that the McDonalds corporation lies, deceives, reprograms, and uses any other manner of coercion to “trick” people into spending a million dollars + to buy a franchise because the real numbers, in terms of possible income, are hidden or deliberately withheld?

    So if you want to chop down this tree…….start at the foundation……..then cut up the branches…….then put them in the chipper.

  167. Mike Collins permalink
    August 26, 2012 2:16 pm

    Finally: @MHBATM: we can bury the hatchet if you like but first I would like you to understand a couple of things.

    Though I defend your right to believe and say anything you like, I will also defend my right to do the same. But more importantly, if you allow yourself the right to share your particular belief system (which, to me appears antagonistic toward the Christian God and Christian faith) to come out in your writings by quoting:
    “8) And then there’s the big kahuna bottom line, ending George’s quotes: mankind, at least Westernized mankind (who must, of course, subscribe to the commonly thought of Christian god) gets their rights from God ONLY, and no one / nothing else.” (I too, believe this to be true and that all government is merely an extension of the natural order of God’s law even though Man has corrupted it.)……..then follow it up in the very next sentence (remember: context, context, context ) with this gem “He and Orrin NEED YOU to believe this poppycock” then I will also allow MYSELF the right to challenge you on it.

  168. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    August 26, 2012 3:06 pm

    1) You never even read the entire context of the long post (yesterday’s regarding George’s bizarre blog quotes) and I’m sorry darlin’ but you completely missed the point, at least in my opinion–George brought up God, not me–and I see now I SHOULD have posted that the other three he listed under it was limiting powers of Government (again, he intermingled everything from current politics to early 20th century to God)—and I’m sorry, but your God does not necessarily dictate international government rights handed down when speaking of it in a civil sense when responding to George.

    There was much more than a God’s (capped for you out of respect) giving of rights here—because George’s whole prior tirade was America mingled with Hitlarisms…he WAS talking about civil rights and constitutional rights, and other rights, etc., conferred by established institutions/governements formed by social groups.

    Face it, dude, you’re just pissed that I’m a runaway Catholic—it just bugs the crap out of you. You have no more right to come at me about your God than I have to talk you out of one–don’t you get that much? I have rights, too, even though, by what you said, you believe I have none (re: God hands out all rights). Eric’s book is RIFE with the bastardization of Christianity–and that’s what George was doing, too. Mike, is this a public stoning? Wanna set me on fire at the stake, too?

    2) And in my opinion, but making 5 posts that I have to keep getting back into from email on a site that never wants to come up and function correctly: is not easier for me than just reading what someone’s got to say in one long post. I can see it if they are meant for different people on different topics.

    But hey, to each his own, eh? Do I need to ask Anthrax if we all have equal posting rights again or what is allowable to be posted again? Gees, Louise—ya already HAVE your own thread line—why do you want to rule the other ones as to whom/how/what/when can be posted? What you propose, Mike, is no better than what LIFE does to its’ members, only they are more surreptitious.

  169. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    August 26, 2012 3:18 pm

    Mike: wait: here it is succinctly re: chopping it down from the financial foundation: you say Math/profits are the answer. I love your math approach. Unfortunately, I know people who would quit in a heartbeat IF Eric’s Merchants of Deception could be proven, by current blogs and propaganda by the current “Team/LIFE”, to still exist, i.e., take out the Amway name and put LIFE in. Who are any of us to dictate WHAT info can/will help someone else?

  170. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    August 26, 2012 3:24 pm

    And Mike: here’s the kicker: ya can’t take them to court on the money aspect—they are allowed to continue because of the system they have set up/safeguards built in. They are legal. The other problem is: on Google searches, all I see is “our side” and “their side” and the rare whooya like Dooly in the middle. Why shouldn’t we show posts that show OTHER inconsistencies? And, ain’t it just too bad that two people happen to be on when no one else is and they have almost a “conversation” that is directly “on point”? I have at least 5 or 6 different complaints from you in the last 24 hrs, including screaming in all caps, etc. I just don’t get it. Is this your wordpress AMTHRAX site or are you a guest here, just like the rest of us?

    You like this system of repeated posts? I don’t…and it shows up on some hyperlinks here, too–gets embarrassing.

  171. Mike Collins permalink
    August 26, 2012 3:35 pm

    LOL! So much for that hatchet huh???!!!!!

    May I make another suggestion? How about you keep your word from now on? i.e. “I, for one, will ignore you from here on in,” and I will continue ignoring you………..

    Any of the rest of you ladies care to pile on since I am obviously the one who can’t read, comprehend, or offer any advice beneficial to your cause??? ROFL

  172. Brent Hansen permalink
    August 26, 2012 3:49 pm

    Michael, I took your advice and read your comments with a “calm voice” in my head and I believe I understood the comments quite differently than Mother. “Public Stoning” seriously? I am the only one I know of (besides Steadson & Drooly) who received a “Public Stoning”, and that came at the hands of Speak & Webelieved, and ouch, I won’t forget that.

    You can be sure of one thing though Michael, once we started chopping at the proverbial root of the problem, look at how many conversations we have had with newspaper reporters, company owners, master distributors, industry advocates, attorneys, senators, etc. etc. Obviously we are striking a chord, keep up the good work.

    Would you have ever imagined 18 short months ago that you would have company owners calling you and consulting with you about their plan? I certainly did not.

    We always have to be aware that what seems logical and reasonable to many of us, may look like ranting and madness to the outside world.

    These comments are not directed at anyone in particular, just sharing my thoughts.

  173. Mike Collins permalink
    August 26, 2012 3:52 pm

    thanks for your comments Brent

  174. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    August 26, 2012 4:03 pm

    Mike: I’ll be glad go back the ignoring, to just as long as you do not
    1) keep coming out with your snide attacks, overt or covert in regard to my posts which you have done numerous times since yesterday and now just did about “we girls”;
    2) start screaming in all caps and a lot of juvenile exclamation points, as if telling someone off;
    3) attach mental disorders to ALL other posters like you did yesterday
    4) think you can get away with “putting me on notice”
    You undermine me, I shall retort. You are NOT shoving me off of this board again.

    Brent: do I really need to explain the use of stoning and burning at the stake? C’mon here. That was in reference to yesterdays screams by Mike’s. NYOB, I’d say, actually. He knew full well what I meant……his very first verbal attack, out of the blue, was screaming about his God and that I should take my “agenda” elsewhere. Let’s no rewrite history here, eh? And Brent, please refer to me by my screen name: wisdom or 51 or something, okay?

    Besides: the bottom line is AMTHRAX already said: bringing out religion in the context of how LIFE is using it is OK…he did this yesterday. Should have been the end of the cyber-bullying right there, shouldn’t it? But no, the snide remarks had to start today again.

    I see we’re a tad chauvanistic, too—–that’s okay, Mike…I got my big girl ex-editor pants on here…you love to inflame the situation with one more nasty comment and then you think that’s the end of it. I could say a few things about you, too, but then I’d stoop to your level…better to keep on point and answer your behaviors, i.e., inflammatory comments and insinuations.

  175. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    August 26, 2012 4:11 pm

    Mike: more twisted words/events/timing from you: burying the hatchet suggestion was BEFORE you just had to come back on and tell us how/what/when/where/why you think we should post. Who the hell do you think you are here? BTW, for Brent, too: I, for one, have supported the math/vidoe thing completely.

  176. Mike Collins permalink
    August 26, 2012 4:21 pm

    1. I’m sure you will. Are you not a lady? I do believe that Webelieved is also a lady is she not? What would you like me to call you? I thought I was being polite.

    2. All caps is an option I often use for emphasis seeing italics isn’t one that is available here.

    3. comprehension problems? Nowhere did I attribute a mental disorder to any poster on this blog. Go back and read what I said.

    4. comprehension issue again? Read what I said. I said “you win. Consider yourself notified” The only notification you have received is that I admit that I am no match for you.

    So I’ll say it again… win! consider yourself notified! ROFL

    This is soooooooooo stupid.

    Have fun peeps ( I hope that’s not offensive ) I’ll check back periodically for some good comments that I can understand (not too many big words or complicated concepts) and that are short enough that will allow me to get though them before my ADD kicks in.

  177. Mike Collins permalink
    August 26, 2012 4:24 pm

    everybody: please ignore my suggestions. I have seen the light. They have no value whatsoever. I’m sure that every person that comes here will have no problem reading every post here no matter how long or complicated and come away with a clearer understanding of what MLM is all about. I must have been a fool to think I had a good suggestion. Love ya!

  178. Mike Collins permalink
    August 26, 2012 4:29 pm

    Amthrax: please remove any inflammatory, useless, hurtful, off-topic comments I may have posted. I promise I won’t be offended. Please forgive me for attempting to moderate your blog. Thanks for all you do and put up with.

  179. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    August 26, 2012 4:39 pm

    General Comment: Merchants of Deception: in what should now be famous words by Eric Scheibeler, pages 65 and 103:

    1) [Eric Sheibeler regarding his early years]: This was the most loving, compassionate, encouraging, God-focused group of people that we had ever been associated with.”

    2) ” (Several years later, I myself would have to
    spend days with a renowned cult expert and over a year in recovery to begin to be
    deprogrammed from my involvement in an Amway motivational cult.)”

    3) “The basic theology or doctrine that many of us would eventually embrace as our
    own, after hundreds of hours of tapes, training sessions, and seminars, was fairly simple.
    Why would a person of reasonable intelligence choose to put himself in a position where
    someone else (an employer) would have near total control of his time and income?”

    It’s more than about money (if everyone would listen up front about the money, no one would need more than the three LIFE Comp Plan-expose videos on Amthrax): Most of the motivation of this very candid man was about everyone using/abusing: business and religious theology and doctrine; using/abusing the Christian God to become more and more narrow-focused about being indoctrinated to different political beliefs; about the lies they lived so long. For years he stayed, thinking the riches would come. He would not listen to the criticisms because he was told NOT TO THINK IT; QUESTION IT; DISCUSS IT or EVEN COMMIT THE SIN OF PONDERING ABOUT IT..

  180. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    August 26, 2012 4:54 pm

    Mike: as a good-bye, (this is the second time in two days I’m reminding you that you did say this), but since you denied it: yesterday you screamed at me that you could guarantee me that everyone on here had ADD and would not read what I had to say anyway. As an RN with an adopted family member that does have it and who has had to learn to cope for over 40 yrs with a disorder people first just didn’t “get” and beat her emotionally into the ground, I didn’t think it was very nice to use a bonafide psychiatric disorder in a derogatory manner for all posters to be labeled with.

  181. Brent Hansen permalink
    August 26, 2012 5:04 pm

    @51, anyone who has been involved with MLM including Michael and myself have experienced the exact thing Scheibeler speaks of in his book. He is 100% correct in writing about these tactics.

    You wrote, “It’s more than about money (if everyone would listen up front about the money, no one would need more than the three LIFE Comp Plan-expose videos on Amthrax):”

    That is a great theory, however it is only a theory. I have been involved in MLM for 18 years and am only aware of less than 10 or so people who thoroughly understand compensation models. Because no one understands it, no one teaches it nor exposes it. A vast majority of the high dollar earners do not even understand what they are involved in.
    Trust me, we have spoken with company owners who do not even understand the mathematical ratios that exist within their own plans and companies, let alone distributors.

    It is about money, people get involved 100% of the time because they want to earn money.
    They don’t understand the plan, or how to make it work, and if they did they wouldn’t join in the first place or would leave as soon as they figured it out.

    Just ask Michael, Speak, Webelieved and all the other people on this blog. Many of these guys were earning in excess of $100,000 per year yet did not understand how or why it worked. People get involved because they want to earn, but they stay involved because of the reasons you are citing. The whole indoctrination is necessary to keep people involved and spending because there simply is no money in the plan.

    Michael gave a very impressive comparison to McDonalds above, I suggest you read through that post again, thanks for the analogy Michael.

    Part of our mission is to expose the financials for what they truly are. Do you believe your son would have pursued this had he known that mathematically, he only has around a 4% chance of earning enough residual income to pay for his $50 subscription? I guarantee you that unless you inform him of that fact early on, he will fall prey to the pile of rhetoric that is being shoveled on him now.

  182. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    August 26, 2012 5:04 pm

    and Mike: um, I noticed you had to get another surreptitious slam in: regarding me using too big of words… that’s ludicrous, er ridiculous….er stupid? (dumbed down enough?) C’mon! Get that hornet OUT of your butt and pallllllleeeeesse, for the 4th time today, go listen to Marc Militello’s LIFE Comp Plan and tell me what’s wrong with it—’cause it sounds screwy to me. Haven’t we both covered each other with enough mud today? Let’s get these bustards at their own game. Will you do it for me if I tell you I’m really a 45 yr old, 6 ft tall male science major who quit the priesthood to be in an MLM? LOL!!

  183. Mike Collins permalink
    August 26, 2012 5:08 pm

    here is a direct quote of what I actually said for those of you who might be tempted to believe this utter BS that this person is posting here:

    August 24, 2012 12:43 pm

    To the rest of you: I will enjoy reading some of your posts if and when I find them between the shorts books being written here a select few.

    Those of you writing these books I can assure you thAt most people are too ADD to spend the several minutes necessary to get through all of it. POST AWAY!!!!!!!!

    I’m done dealing with this wacko. Good luck to all of you.

  184. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    August 26, 2012 5:11 pm

    Brent: you don’t get it: I have NO PROBLEM with Mike’s interest in the financial end of things! I never did! And this is the last time I’m going to say that. If he’s a “real man” here, he’ll ‘fess up and tell you that he started this yesterday (I repeat, yesterday), and yesterday, Amthrax had made a decision. It should have been done. And I am sitting here patiently, since yesterday, trying to get Mike’s take on Marc Militello’s Life comp plan Utube video, (If you want to come into two others’ spat, you’ve got to go back to the beginning–this is NOT about me saying the math end is worthless or whatever it is you think; I say: there’s room for the other whole aspect as listed on almost every page of a 318 page book as written by Eric Sheibeler, for example.

  185. Brent Hansen permalink
    August 26, 2012 5:14 pm

    Case in point, I will ask all three of them Michael, Webelieved and Speak. Please answer my questions if you will.

    1. What size of team did the three of you have, and approximately how much were you earning from your respective MLMs?

    2. Did either of the three of you know or understand that over 95% of your team could never break even on their monthly expenditures based upon the mathematics of the compensation plan?

    3. Do the three of you feel that indoctrination was used to keep you on the MLM hook?

    4. Did anyone of the three of you know or understand the allocation of dollars meaning what percentage of commissions were going to what percentage of people?

    5. Had you known and understood this would the “indoctrination” worked?

    Eric Scheibler is just like every other unknowing and uneducated victim. He has simply chosen to put his story to words. Everyone on this blog has the exact same story, and most on this blog earned a lot of money from the industry.

  186. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    August 26, 2012 5:17 pm

    Mike: okay, now you’re calling me a wacko–more demeaning verbage: you just posted exactly what I claimed: that you said MOST PEOPLE ARE TOO ADD to actually read these books (long posts), and then started screaming ‘post away’ (don’t tell me you don’t know internet cap etiquette, either). I still won’t stoop to calling you names—I’m 62 yrs old and it’s not worth it. You’ve just exposed your own juvenile behavior—own it and live with it.

  187. Brent Hansen permalink
    August 26, 2012 5:17 pm

    51, please don’t make assumptions about what you think I may be thinking. I have neither thought nor wrote a word about what you and Michael have going on. Please email the link to the video, and I will watch it and post my findings. Thank you.

  188. Mike Collins permalink
    August 26, 2012 5:22 pm

    1. I was a Ruby with 4,000 people in my organization. Rubies make $100,000 plus a year if they are getting “paid as” but i can assure you, by the time I was done with all other expenses, it was nowhere close to that.

    2. No

    3. Absolutely

    4. No

    5. No. Absolutely not. I am a business man. I’ve owned five companies and I can count. I did not know that the comp plan PDF’s are deliberately obscure and confusing in order to make them hard to understand unless you know what you are looking at.Once you understand how to decipher them everything changes.

  189. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    August 26, 2012 5:24 pm

    Brent: again, I have no problem with the Math/financials. I agree wholeheartedly. But let me refresh your memory where you directly made comments about Mike’s and my tiff–this is fact, not assumption, and since you referred to me as “Mother”, um, I guess this means you were talking abou ME, right?

    “Michael, I took your advice and read your comments with a “calm voice” in my head and I believe I understood the comments quite differently than Mother. “Public Stoning” seriously? I am the only one I know of (besides Steadson & Drooly) who received a “Public Stoning”, and that came at the hands of Speak & Webelieved, and ouch, I won’t forget that.”

  190. Mike Collins permalink
    August 26, 2012 5:26 pm

    “most people are too ADD” and “you could guarantee me that everyone on here had ADD” are two entirely different statements with two entirely different meanings.

    Do you see the difference? It is very subtle but if you look close you’ll see it. If you want I’ll explain it to you.

  191. Brent Hansen permalink
    August 26, 2012 5:33 pm

    I think you may have misunderstood what I meant, although I did refer to the two of you in my comment, what I really meant was I am not in the middle of this, nor do I want to be. I simply read his comments, and they made perfect sense to me. I don’t know why you sensed hostility because honestly, there was none that I am aware of.

    Put down the sword and lets be friends. Please email me the link for that video, I will be glad to look at it. Thanks!

  192. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    August 26, 2012 5:37 pm

    Mike: okay, I read your ADD comment explanation–guess it just goes to show how differently the written word can come across, eh? the only thing left to make clear here: I wholeheartedly support the financial fiasco exposures AND exposure of the LIFE comp plan. I’ve only EVER said: there’s more than one way to look at/post at how this new business gets its’ ideology such as: my reviews of their actual words/spiels/treatises, etc.

    Brent: you want the website? Last time I tried to post a link it wouldn’t work, so you add the www. part, okay? .

  193. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    August 26, 2012 5:42 pm

    Forgot something for Brent: my own grown, pushin’ 40 kid would not listen to me about the comp plan structure–kept screaming it was just a bunch of crap from a few bloggers (so I guess you know what Hawkins and his downliners are saying these days, eh?) ….I just hope someday, I don’t have to pick up the pieces too badly when he crashes from this. Hopefully, his personality will get him shunned, i.e., he does not take direction well and hates authority–he might see this after the love-bomb-fest starts to wane. If Hawkins’s STEALTH team takes a coddling to him and rewards him unfairly, it could take a lot longer. He and Hawk are so similar, in so many ways, it’s uncanny—but, don’t piss him off–so I can just see being chastised for asking the wrong question or something, as Eric mentioned in MoD book—holy smokes!! Chernobyl!

  194. Mike Collins permalink
    August 26, 2012 6:43 pm

    MHBATM: yes, I guess reading the written word in its actual context and seeing how the words are grouped together in their exact order and what they mean is not enough anymore……..we need to see how they “come across”

    Here is where I act like a “real man” and politely bow out of any further dialogue with you. Post whatever you choose, amthrax will moderate it if and when he sees fit.

  195. August 26, 2012 7:59 pm

    @mike and @wisdom (and others) – please stop with the back and forth comments debating one another and move on with discussing substantive topics.

    Ask yourself before clicking the save comment button, “Does this comment help further the discussion?” If the answer is no, consider waiting until you have something worthwhile to say. It doesn’t help the person who comes to this site for the first time to see people debating back and forth about unrelated topics.

    We all share the same goal, which is to show that the TEAM/LIFE business is a bad business opportunity to get into. Let’s focus on advancing that goal with great, insightful comments.

  196. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    August 26, 2012 8:28 pm

    Amthrax: sounds good to me. Hey, I’m still up here in the midwest…I aboslutely cannot put down Merchants of Deception! Eric’s story of his tenure in the biz is chilling! Reading it should almost be a prequisite here on Amthrax, eh? Anyway: remember what I had asked earlier today about getting a thread started for those of us that want to focus more on psycosocial/socioeconomic and cultish aspects? Would this be possible for you to start–you know, perhaps a thread that centers around the brain-wash/misinformation aspects of the TOOLS side of the biz?

  197. August 27, 2012 8:44 am

    I think this is a good idea. Why don’t you submit a guest post regarding this, and I’ll post it on the site. Make it clear and concise so that new readers can get a good understanding of what’s happening. Send me an email and I’ll provide comments and edits before publishing.

  198. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    August 27, 2012 9:23 am

    @AMTHRAX and @webelieved: don’t know if I am qualified to be the lead on a thread like that…what about using someone, for example, like Mesha? Wouldn’t it be more credible coming from someone who had been in it? Just sayin’…..

  199. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    August 27, 2012 9:49 am

    @webelieved, @Calie etal, and to the others who helped us to get to good sources of information to help us understand what happened to us this summer as family members of a loved one being drawn into team/LIFE–this is what we have found, and the data collected just is what it is and as long as it is–can’t be helped:

    Next, it goes without saying: many thanks to Steve Hassan’s ‘Freedom of Mind Resource Center’–this site has begun to help us to understand what has happened to our loved one being sucked into the vortex of Team/LIFE, even as a newbie:

    The evaluation checklist to see if our loved one is under ‘UNDUE INFLUENCE’ (to not get hung up on the word ‘cult’ as Hassan suggests).

    Here are some of the EARLY warning signs—we’ve picked out those that apply specifically to what we have seen in our own family member in just the early phases of involvement in team/LIFE, i.e., the “motivational indoctrination”, to one degree or another (some were subtle changes):

    Hassan uses 4 major categories of: Change in Prior Commitments; Financial; Radical Personality Change and Health. From those we saw these points to be true:

    1) change in prior commitments: yes
    2) change in goals: yes
    3) change in relationships: yes
    4) financial repeated surrendering of money for group sponsored events: yes
    5) change in physical appearance: yes
    6) personality change: secretive, evasive, defensive behavior: yes
    7) personality change: from analytical to magical thinking: yes
    8) personality change: move toward a proselytizing behavior: yes
    9) personality change: judgmental attitude toward family members: yes
    10) personality change: change in level of honesty: yes
    11) personal habits: change from tardy to punctual or vice versa if organization made demands: yes
    12) personal habits: change from irresponsible to responsible and vice versa: yes
    13) communication style: defensiveness and evasiveness: yes
    14) communication style: use of canned speech and buzzwords: yes
    15) relationships: family preached to as though they need to be saved: yes
    16) relationships: more time spent with group: yes
    17) career: radical changes in goals: yes
    18) career: abruptly ends career: yes (wants to soon)
    19) health: sleep deprivation: yes

    We don’t know what the future holds–we are now in a ‘holding pattern’ position to see if our loved one will fall deeper into the vortex.

    As newbies to this nightmare, we can only suggest this: before you do much of anything else:

    1) Read the links offered on Amthrax. Learn the money-making methods and odds of success and read the stories of those affected;

    2) read Eric Scheibeler’s online book: Merchants of Deception (about his 10 year meteoric rise and subsequent crash in Dexter Yager’s version of Amway (and note: you may find reference to a court case out there where Eric may have been pressured in a suit to back off on one or two of his claims–just remember, he’s not the only one his journey happened to, i.e., lawsuits popped up around the country.).

    Keep in mind: If you think the hidden side (the motivational tool side of a business being the actual money-making scheme instead of selling renewable product to an end consumer side) , the Dexter Yager–the U.S. mastermind creator “motivational tools’ in Amway–has nothing to do with team/LIFE, you’d be very wrong. Team/LIFE’s founding principles are lock/stock/barrel, Dexter Yager’s. The current iteration of LIFE is only a new spin-off of what has existed for decades on end, albeit quite refined.

    3) Then, after you recover from the shock of Eric Scheibeler’s journey, look at the education/training/recovery sites he recommends, such as Hassan’s.

    Will you be guaranteed solace? No. But you will be forearmed and your preconceived notions about everybody and everything associated with this entity known as LIFE (or team/LIFE) will be in the trash can.

    However, you will be building the strength and knowledge of how to counter the fallout that made you an indirect victim of ‘undue influence’ in the motivation explosion which is covering nothing but a scheme to sell motivational materials and build wealth for the almost-negligible few near the top.

  200. August 27, 2012 9:52 am

    Just write up a brief summary of what you think the problem is. Write it from the perspective of your personal story.

  201. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    August 27, 2012 9:58 am

    @Amthrax: would what I just posted above, i.e., the checklist from Hassan, work?

  202. August 27, 2012 10:12 am

    Yes, that was a good comment. Let me package it up.

  203. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    August 27, 2012 4:20 pm

    @webelieved; @Cali and others interested in more cultish/undue influence MLM problems that cover aspects like:religious, political, therapy, education, business, etc.(topics as enumerated by Amthrax) , c’mon over to the new thread Amthrax started for us.

    Thanks much Amthrax! Now maybe we can get out of the (said in jest, not meanness) “math boys’ ” hair. But if the numbers wiz’s see this: I’m still waitin’ for your takes on Marc’s leadership video trying to explain the payment system–got real confusing as to how an essentially “inactive” member not recruiting and just paying for his monthly subscription could crawl to the top of that first pipeline 🙂

  204. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    August 31, 2012 8:04 am


    Click on hyperlink…then you will be on seller’s personal page…scroll down the left side and see all the team/LIFE kit and Mon Avie kit stuff

  205. chris murphy permalink
    December 20, 2012 9:36 am

    I think your confused. EX team memebers let me say this. A quitter is a horrible source for credibilty. You scammed yourself but not doing the work of the system. And y ou Lie to yourself thinking that you occupations and government will provide for you anything but selfish greed on your frustration. Winners never quit. And a quit has to blame someone for their own lsck of courage. So i said if i were you i would blame orrin woodward. It’s his fault you never really gave full effoty for your dream. He should have just given you money while you sat at home and never contacted anyon on your chicken list. QUit is fine. Blame others for you fear is why america is a mess right now. Get and dream and do something about it guys. YOu know what i am talking about. Even though you’ll critize this post

  206. December 20, 2012 12:23 pm

    @Chris Murphy – How many TEAM/LIFE members in your organization are still “drinkin da juice” from MonaVie? Are you still on auto-ship every week/month? I was led to believe that MonaVie was the vehicle that would bring twenty Black Diamonds to TEAM within the next few years (back in 2008)? What happened?

    Here’s a short article from Forbes on how winners know when to quit:

  207. Mike Collins permalink
    December 20, 2012 12:46 pm

    Chris: how much money did your Lief business make you last month?

    Have you seen our video breakdown of the lief compensation plan? I would guess not since it is obvious that you have not read more than a few comments on this site. If you had you would know that there are some serious former business builders that post here. People that have experienced more success in MLM than you probably ever will (judging from your grammar and spelling)

  208. Cali permalink
    December 20, 2012 6:18 pm

    Oh good lord… they keep coming I see.

  209. Freedomhaha permalink
    December 20, 2012 8:22 pm

    Chris- I am curious as to what percentage of your downline TEAM is in the black?

  210. No Team For Me permalink
    December 21, 2012 4:45 am

    Chris Murphy – you obviously have not read through the site. Many of us on this site were out there 5 and 6 nights a week, year after year and did achieve some of the highest levels of recognition in Orrin’s Team business. But, as we got more time with Orrin and saw more behind the scenes, we realized the integrity was not anything we had hoped it would be.

  211. switch permalink
    December 21, 2012 6:33 am

    “You scammed yourself but not doing the work of the system….”

    LOL, now this one I haven’t heard yet.

  212. December 21, 2012 6:36 am


    They do don’t they. Imagine Chris is someone’s downline, tragic if he has one. With brains like this ducks would fly backwards. Still waiting for a TEAMmunist/MLMer to broach a worthy discourse.

  213. Melanie Morgan permalink
    December 21, 2012 8:41 am


    “With brains like this ducks would fly backwards.” ROFL…

    Switch~ Are these robots, real?

    chris murphy, says we are confused …Bahahaha!

  214. Melanie Morgan permalink
    December 21, 2012 8:54 am

    This is becoming a comedy show, they must have had another bar lowering…”conference call”….send the spawns to Amthrax….and told to “go get-um soldiers”..”YOU can do it”…”unsheathe your sword”….we are in a “media-war” and y’all are the soldiers…now get marchin…”never quit”…don’t worry bout the contract and P&P we had you sign and will hold you too…we only made that up our CTA’s.. so we can control, own, and enslave you…and when we need to steal others business and incomes, we can do it with a smile…

  215. December 21, 2012 9:31 pm

    The problem is who is taking up the arms, Chris above? They are wasting my waiting. Odubious why don’t you show up yourself, if even anonymousely?

  216. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    January 14, 2013 3:57 pm

    Did I miss something? This was posted on Ripoff Report on 11/25/12….website says no copying without permission.

  217. Melanie Morgan permalink
    January 14, 2013 6:13 pm

    Great Find!!I have never seen this before!

    **** Everyone needs to read that link, Raquel needs to get permission to use this! Thanks!

  218. BrandNewLifeMember permalink
    June 27, 2013 7:25 pm

    An old coworker contacted me with this TEAM LIFE thing two weeks ago. I am now signed up facing my first house meeting tomorrow. I called a few people to mislead (aka just come over n I’ll explain) them into attending and was told I was doing great. I’m feeling thankful now that I never got around to calling the rest of my list. I have gotten mixed up with a religious cult before as well as legitimate counseling and leadership/success classes. I have also been in sales doing cold calls and commission.

    They kept saying this isn’t sales but it obviously was but I thought I could be pretty good at it since its at the intersection of my experience. But to hear what I would have to pour in to get NOTHING in profit is horrifying. When I signed up I mentioned I hadn’t gotten around to googling LIFE yet and the person signing me up said “Good, We wouldn’t be sitting here if you had.” Red flag much?

    I’m torn between what they say I could make (I’m divorced w little family, bad credit, student loans, flunking college, and working a part time minimum wage job so I’m short on opportunity or even options right now) and the reality I’ve read on this site. I really wanted to do more research and run some concrete numbers. But I’ve noticed the Tue meetings seem filled with desperate looking people- not the wealthy business types you’d expect from what they say. And when I ask direct sales questions- such as what happens when you leave to make your second team and all your first team quits?- I’m brushed off, redirected, or fed repeated lines. I thought their hype was just an intense sales pitch. I realized it was somewhat fake but could possibly make a profit. And I believe in self help so why not get paid to read? Now its looking like something much more sinister and no win for anyone but the permanent tops. I just wanted to share my experience.

    If there’s anything you think I would benefit to know please post. At this point I feel like I might ride this out for 20 of my 30 day trial and then let my family and friends talk me out of it? I wonder what the ones I invited will say tomorrow or if I should cancel and get out now and if that refund even works??? Thanks for being here for people like me. Hopefully further research on other sites wont re-brainwash me?? P.S. The big difference to me is the positive info seems like vague processed hype being re-spewed. Few facts are presented. The first negative things I read were the same. Evil! Evil! But your discussions about the 60 day no compete period and MV fall apart were so precise and info packed they seemed more credible than anything I’ve read online tonight or heard in the last two weeks.

    I figured my lifes a mess why not give LIFE a chance?? Now I’m not so sure.

    [Editor’s note: Educate yourself about the history of TEAM and LIFE. Take “advantage” of the 30-day money back guarantee to do research, both good and bad. See if you can find the same material for free at your local library. Research the Income Disclosure Document to see your chances for success in LIFE. Near the end of your investigation, you’ll have a better sense if you think you can make it or not]

  219. MinitureGiantSpaceHamster permalink
    June 28, 2013 7:24 am

    The choice is up to you BrandNewLifeMember.

    By staying in you’ll definitely be told not check out the opposite side of the story. Do your research and arm yourself with the hard questions. If you can put aside all the hype and have them convince you, without doubt, they are legitimate then by all means stay in. However, I personally doubt they will.

  220. Cali permalink
    June 28, 2013 11:56 am

    I’m sorry your life is not in a good place right now, but if you need someone to tell you not to get involved, I’ll tell you – don’t do it. Cancel the meeting and walk away. They will take every dime you have and make you feel bad about yourself for not making any money. You can get self help online, in the library, and support groups that don’t cost anything.

  221. Freedomhaha permalink
    June 29, 2013 10:28 am

    Wisdom- Excellent work as always. Thank you for your contribution.

    Amthrax- Would it be possible for family and friends of members to share their side of the story in a similar Q & A format that is current used by Ex-TEAM members? The victims of this cult stretch far beyond the people enrolled, which is one reason I am so passionate about stopping it.

  222. Chrisxrascal permalink
    June 29, 2013 12:46 pm

    Brand new life member- Team is not for everyone. Team even claims it’s only for the 10 %. I was in a year and a half. They will tell you what a great opportunity your missing. You will also here Leaders of team spew how anyone can be successful with following the system. You may have noticed the evidence on this site that shows that s not true. I say save your money and don’t fall for the hype. In my opinion they are rascals and make you hyped up and have you believing your doing good and use hope to keep you in the business.When in my experience your wasting time and money, while you could be focusing on other things. I wish you well and hope you keep doing your research to make the best decision for you. I would also recommend ” Merchants of Deception ” to read which you can download the link on the right on the main page

  223. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    June 29, 2013 6:48 pm

    @Freedomhaha: thanks! Hey, did I miss something else? I had a hoot at this one:

    “How did LIFE Training get its start, and why? And how do those economics work today?”

    “When Orrin Woodward and Chris Brady began their business careers they unknowingly joined an organization in which profits were weighted towards those who “got there first.” They didn’t like this situation and vowed to fix it. As a result, in 1999 they formed LIFE Training, with the goal of developing the fairest, most equitable plan to share 100% of the profits remaining each month. This, in fact, caused many rival organizations to attack them as they made an issue of, made public, and sought to end the unfair distribution of profit from training materials”

    “No one, not Orrin Woodward, Chris Brady, nor any of the other Policy Council leaders makes any money from ownership. Nor do they receive consideration for any travel related (or otherwise) expenses necessary for their responsibilities therein. All profits (revenue minus expenses) are pooled at the end of each month and disbursed based upon each Director’s performance. In other words, any character-based leader can build an organization bigger than the founders on a per-organization basis and make more money than anyone else”.


    They formed “LIFE training” in 1999? And Amway was “weighted toward those who ‘got there first'”? What kind of doo-doo is all of this?

  224. June 30, 2013 11:00 am

    @Freedomhaha – Sure, send me an email with a list of questions that you want them to answer; we’ll compile it and create a new section on the site.

  225. BrandNewLifeMember permalink
    June 30, 2013 1:33 pm

    Thank you guys for answering me. I didnt call anyone new but had the meeting. The few friends and family there said I could give it a chance because I’m young but I’m probably getting scammed. I told my ‘upline’? I wasnt sure anymore. I think I have 30 days to get out but i dont know if I should even wait that long. Actually one of my friends was in Amway and said he lost a lot of time and money. He’s going to meet with me and my upline along with another friend who own his own business Monday. They said they could help me ask the right questions and get some real answers. I’m still so glad I found you guys or I would still be all ‘hyped’ up instead of trying to decide rationally what to do. It’s hard to drop out when your upline is so encouraging? though.

  226. Freedomhaha permalink
    June 30, 2013 5:50 pm

    BrandNew- If I could go back I would get out the second I heard the sales pitch then stopped others around me from ever spending a cent. Do not join a business where less than one out of one-hundred people that you sign up will make a profit.

  227. Melanie Morgan permalink
    June 30, 2013 8:49 pm


    I second freedomhaha. Hold them to the “money back guarantee.”

    Very wise decision that you have people going with you that know the tricks of the trade, their strategic emotionally grabbing games will not work work when they are asked the hard hitting questions, (they won’t answer, will avoid & become evasive or will try their best stop thinking techinques ).

    Sounds like it will be an interesting meeting, wish I could be there asking the questions, Haha, but if their “business” is as great as they promote, and their “training” and how it “changes people for the better” then the evidence will show up loud and clear in this meeting.

    Don’t be fooled by the “encouraging” nicey, nice playing on your emtions tricks. They may seem sincere and that seems to last as long as they think they have you. Watch how quickly that attitude changes when those experienced friends put them on the spot and they realize their best tricks fail. I think you wiil see a different side from your “encouraging” upline.

    Good luck, you have the support you will need, and sure your friends will be of great value, let us know how it turns out.

    Welcome to the site! 🙂

  228. Chris permalink
    January 24, 2014 9:22 pm

    All you guys blast me lol. One supporter gets so much hate. Mel Morgan. I remember the “one thing” cd. It was great. You cried about how it changed a drug dealers life. And now it is all a waste? I don’t care what Orrin is like. Steve Jobs was a prick too but he did something with his time here. If I get to a level and find out I don’t like Orrin – I will just use the new talents and start another business. Not go right back to some secure job. You guys used to be life inspiring entreperneurs. Now you spend time on a venomous website, trash talking. I can’t imagine this gossip makes you feel good inside. Please go back to helping people with something, instead of just pointing out that Orrin is not Perfect – who is? Do something better then him if you guys are all so much more amazing. Go build a perfect business and beat him. Don’t cry like a baby and destroy his followers.

  229. noteam permalink
    January 25, 2014 7:09 pm

    Chris, – The reason we are on here is because we watched people we care about waste their life savings on tools and seminars, miss memories with their kids, break off friendships with their friends and go deep deep deep in credit card debt like the Darkangelo’s did (did you see their bankruptcy papers where they had over $200,000 in consumer debt?).

    These weren’t leaders in the business. These were people who never made a dime. Not only did they not make money, but the business put them tens of thousands of dollars in debt. Many of us at least made some money. But I feel terrible about all the people I saw who didn’t and have nothing to show except tens of thousands of dollars of debt and missed memories they will never get back with their kids.

    We feel an obligation to try and save other innocent victims from having their lives ruined by this group of scammers. Imagine if one of Bernie Madoffs victims could have warned some of the others before they lost their life savings. That is what we are trying to do.

  230. TruthSeeker permalink
    January 26, 2014 4:37 am

    Chris wrote, “Don’t cry like a baby and destroy his followers.”

    We don’t have to destroy his followers Chris, that is Orrin’s job, and he is wonderful at it.

  231. Chris permalink
    January 26, 2014 5:51 pm

    First off, I will have typos and I don’t care. So feel free to label me retarded because I don’t care about proof reading this bullshit. You guys attack every angle don’t you? Sorry I am not perfect like all of you. But anyways… I got a question: you are definitely defining the problem; but what are your solutions? Besides quit, that is not a solution. So I quit TEAM, and then do what? What is your advice? Get a 50,000 or more dollar loan for a small business that could easily fail too? Go back and get 100,000 in student debt to get a degree with a 50% or less chance of getting a job in the field? Or spend my energy all at my current job – the job that might disappear in a few years or that will gladly toss me out to feed the bottom line? WHAT!?! Tell me. What out there is perfect, what should I DO? What? Cause I wanna do something. So can you help me find a path, or are you only useful at insulting Orrin? Which I could careless about, I don’t subscribe to the cult mindset like you all think? So what are your grand answers to my life quest? P.S. your website is named after a poision. Which is a good description of your attitudes. Now my genius friends, don’t attack and insult me – just give me your best solutions?

  232. Chris permalink
    January 26, 2014 5:56 pm

    Oh and for the record, I spend 90 bucks a month of stuff. 4 cds, a book, and a seminar. I love all of it casue it helps my personal and professonial life out. I CHOOSE to buy the stuff. And it is $90 a month. I shut of cable for 120 a month and switched to that. So where is the LIFE SAVINGS part coming in? You’re the ones who bought thousands of bucks on tools. You can show plans with a 5 first night packs – you don’t need 20 of everything. That was your call.

  233. Mike Collins permalink
    January 26, 2014 6:14 pm

    Chris: invest a few hundred dollars on a used lawn mower and an edger and I’ll guarantee you’ll make more money on your lawn business than you’re going to make in this ridiculous “business” model.

  234. January 26, 2014 8:42 pm

    Chris, you sound sincere. I have 2 questions for you.

    1) how many plans have you shown?

    2) do you agree with the $600 monthly required tool purchase for Team directors in order for them to be directors and share in the tool pool?

  235. Vogel permalink
    January 26, 2014 10:25 pm

    Chris said: “But anyways… I got a question: you are definitely defining the problem; but what are your solutions? Besides quit, that is not a solution. So I quit TEAM, and then do what? What is your advice? Get a 50,000 or more dollar loan for a small business that could easily fail too? Go back and get 100,000 in student debt to get a degree with a 50% or less chance of getting a job in the field? Or spend my energy all at my current job – the job that might disappear in a few years or that will gladly toss me out to feed the bottom line? WHAT!?! Tell me. What out there is perfect, what should I DO? What? Cause I wanna do something. So can you help me find a path, or are you only useful at insulting Orrin?”

    I’m ambidextrous – I can help you AND I can insult Orrin all at the same time…amazing eh? It’s odd to say the least that you take issue with the fact that on a website devoted to discussing Amway, MonaVie, TEAM/LIEf, and Orrin Woodward, people are actually discussing Amway, MonaVie, TEAM/ LIEf, and Orrin Woodward. What’s stranger still is that you seem to think that the website should instead be more like a high school guidance councilor’s office. Sadly, your view of the options the world has to offer is, uh, shall we say – skewed.

    Despite the fact that this isn’t a guidance councilor’s office, I am willing to offer you the guidance you seek. If you want to discuss potential opportunities for an affordable higher education, respectable employment (the kind where you actually get paid), or a viable startup business (i.e., not MLM BS), I’ll need a lot more information about your background, education, skills, and financial resources. We might have to take the discussion offline though, since we don’t want to distract people from the subject at hand. Consider that your first lesson in preparation for a better future – be relevant.

    Now that we’ve gotten that out of the way, I expect to not have to listen to anymore of your bellyaching. Thanks in advance.

  236. Vogel permalink
    January 26, 2014 10:45 pm

    Chris said: “I don’t care what Orrin is like. Steve Jobs was a prick too but he did something with his time here.”

    Ummmm…what the #&@%? That kind of comparison really makes my bile reflux. Please stop it. There are lots of pricks in business history that had no redeeming qualities and whose accomplishments were trivial in comparison with Jobs’ contributions. Pick any old prick at random — e.g., Enron’s Kenneth Lay, Bernie Madoff, a street corner pickpocket, etc. — and it would be a far more apt comparison than likening Woodward to Steve Jobs. That’s just silly blind personality cult-worship BS — you’re better than that, I hope.

    More importantly, in all the thousands of posts here over the years, I don’t think I’ve ever once seen anyone frame this as an issue of Woodward simply being a prick. Pernicious conman and liar — yes, without question — but that’s different than simply dismissing him as a prick. Although when you get right down to it, lying and conning people would tend to land one in the prick category.

  237. I QUIT (and glad I did) permalink
    January 27, 2014 7:32 am

    Poor Chris. He doesn’t understand the information contained in his own IDS. If he did, he would have a different outlook!

  238. Melanie Morgan permalink
    January 27, 2014 9:52 am


    You have taken the liberty to come to this “venomous website” and clearly attack “trash talk” myself, and those on here and then defend Orrin. You proceed to assume you know what we do with our life as if you are ruler over it. Chris, you do not have that power. Now you want those to define your “path?” I sincerely feel for you, and I see Vogel offered to help you, that would be the wises thing you could do right now if you are sincere about wanting help.

    You sound very confused, angry and unhappy. You bring up the “one thing” and wonder if it was all a waste? Chris, I have many regrets from my experience, we trusted to the enth degree, the Woodward’s and the rest of the mob you defend, clearly that was a critical mistake.

    You are right about 1 thing, you can only “imagine” how I feel, and even less of a no clue of why I am here. I will say, it is NOT for me and Chris you are smarter than believing this is about Orrin not being “perfect”.

    I am sorry, for those thousands upon thousands of people we worked with and had on our team, including many crossline, we truly cared for and would never have brought in, not to mention would have never got started ourselves, had we known what we know now. That cd is 13 or 14 years old and at best as been out of the “system” for at least 6 or 7 years, so Chris either they are still using it to make money or you have been in that long and have not made a dime, nor has it helped you with your attitude or finding your purpose? It is blatantly not working for you Chris and clearly hasn’t made you a “better person.” You use the word poison to compare the attitudes on here, have you read your comments, you are the end product of a “life-changing” system for years and look at yourself?

    You have bought, hook, line and sinker into the philosophy, and the beliefs, of Orrin & mob. Did you ever think that might be why you feel so lost, confused and unhappy or why you think people would just do what you tell them to do with their lives. Orrin is not the be all end all knowing, you say don’t destroy “his followers”, doesn’t he own them? Think deeply Chris.

    You certainly are entitled to your opinion of John & I, but I see it as frankly none of my business just as what I do with my time and life, is none of yours-fair. Good luck and take Vogel up on his offer, please.

  239. Melanie Morgan permalink
    January 27, 2014 10:00 am

    correction: should say “DOES” he own them?

  240. Former Round Table permalink
    January 27, 2014 10:30 am


    First, you say that you don’t subscribe to the cult mindset, but yet you claim that TEAM is the only viable option you have for earning a living. That is CLASSIC cult mindset!!

    When you are involved in this group, one of two things will happen:

    1. You will toddle along for years attending meetings seminars and whatever else the Grand Poobahs think you should attend, and you will obediently listen to every CD that is for sale. You will never make enough money to even cover your expenses, let alone live on. You will blindly believe that the only reason you are not at the top is because you have not yet read the right book or attended the next seminar or you haven’t changed enough or you just don’t want it bad enough. You will believe every word uttered by the “leaders” without question, including “TEAM/LIFE is the only viable option you have for earning a living.”

    2. You will be among the less than 1/100 of 1% who will make enough money to leave your job. You will (maybe) get close enough to the “leaders” to realize that they are spewing a pile of crap. You will be faced with the decision to either do the right thing and walk away, or you will ignore your conscience and rationalize why it really isn’t that bad.

    I was in group two. I had been convinced, like you, that TEAM was the only viable way to make substantial money, but I could NOT justify or rationalize the lies, deceit and manipulation. So I walked. I found that there ARE great jobs available for people who are willing to put in the effort and provide value. I realized that as long as I provide value for my employer, he will continue to pay me. Is there any guarantee? Of course not. But there is far greater security in my job than I ever had working for Orrin Woodward and Company. And trust me, that is exactly what you are doing right now. You work for Orrin. You don’t get paid, you don’t get health insurance or vacation time, you don’t get ANY of the benefits of having a job. But you do work for him, and in fact you pay him for the privilege!

  241. Melanie Morgan permalink
    January 27, 2014 1:25 pm


    You ought go to the Woodward’s & Brady’s and ask what College their kids are going to,… to determine their futures? Obviously, they aren’t even true to their own beliefs nor congruent with their own philosophy and rhetoric. Certainly that “life-changing” ‘education’ ought be good enough for them if it is for you. Isn’t it the ONLY way? Why is it not ENOUGH for their kids?

    If they have ALL the answers to your future “jobless fantastic residual-income based business”, then why is it not good enough for their own children? Why would they waste their time and money or as you say:

    ” What is your advice? Get a 50,000 or more dollar loan for a small business that could easily fail too? Go back and get 100,000 in student debt to get a degree with a 50% or less chance of getting a job in the field?”

    Are you smelling the coffee, Chris, the double standards and what you have bought into.. is causing you confusion, frustration, anger and to strike out with venom… You have fallen into their bashing and supposed belief about what a waste college education is….

    Ponder that.

  242. Melanie Morgan permalink
    January 27, 2014 1:32 pm

    Here Chris couple of Chris Brady’s latest tweets:

    “My son Casey has now visited 6 college campuses to help decide his future. That is exactly 6 more than I visited to decide mine!”

    AND another unbelievable jewel, considering their ‘educational “system”:

    “Indoctrination is not education, name calling is not debate, and power-mongering is not progressive governance.”

  243. Melanie Morgan permalink
    January 27, 2014 3:12 pm


    One last thing, you wanted a “solution?”

    Take the $90 bucks a month that is obviously fruitless in return for you (you don’t have to pay for friends either, find a free support group) add that to the $120 per month you have saved from cutting your cable and find a legitimate counselor (preferably one who understands cult indoctrination) to begin to find yourself again and then take Vogel up on his offer. I have not seen him offer that, you are fortunate and don’t even know it yet.

    When you begin to clear your head of the constant reel of indoctrination and lies, you can find yourself again, (i.e. your likes, what you love in life etc.),

    You will begin to figure out what it is YOU want to do with your life. The biggest danger in team is letting them decide what you should believe and worse adopting their attitude for the world and others around you. Don’t isolate yourself from good people who have no agenda nor just want your auto pay of $90 per month.

    You don’t need anyone to tell you, your path, Chris that is for you to discover. If you are open to it, I would highly recommend opening the Bible or just simply spend some quite time on your knees. Maybe take some time away to somewhere you love and do some soul searching.

  244. Vogel permalink
    January 27, 2014 3:37 pm

    Brady: “Indoctrination is not education, name calling is not debate, and power-mongering is not progressive governance.”

    Considering the extent to which they rely on indoctrination, name calling, and power mongering, that’s a classic example of Orwellian doublethink. It seems that the rule in MLMs like Monavie/TEAM/LIEf is that whatever the kingpins say, the exact opposite is true; and the louder they say something, the bigger the lie. It must really mess with their victims’ heads to have their thought processes turned upside down like that. How debilitating. I can see how it would be so much easier to sell people worthless products, tsotchkes, and painfully bad advice after you’ve vaporized their brains with these kinds of mind control tactics.

  245. Cali permalink
    January 27, 2014 4:33 pm

    Well this is quite sad. I know I don’t show up here a lot but I get notifications every once in a while.

    The solution is: go to a library and get those books for free. Youtube the guys Orrin rips off like John Maxwell, Dave Ramsey. etc… Go to college, get a job in sales if you want lots of money, or rethink what’s important in life. There are worse things than to not become a millionaire. Orrin is a liar. TEAM/LIFE is a lie. You are being lied to. I was always so uncomfortable around that guy I can’t believe it took me so long to see what he was really about.

    I’m not religious, I don’t know if you are, but it doesn’t matter. Stop wasting your money. You can get this info for free. Anyone who makes you feel like you are incomplete right now as you are, and need to buy the information to be a better human being so you can deserve to be rich, is a jerk. You’re probably a nice guy who doesn’t deserve to have his life and self esteem messed with this way. Do your closest friends and family support you in this?

  246. Chris permalink
    January 27, 2014 6:33 pm

    I just like ruffling your feathers guys. I know there are other choices besides LIFE. I just generally enjoy the cds and books and seminars. To me it is worth 50 bucks a month for the cds and book. Which is fine, my money, my choice to buy what consumer goods I want. Mel – you sent me like 6 messages. My brother was in the old business and I got access to his old top fifty. They don’t talk about you guys anymore. But Mel Morgan I honestly have a real question. Like a serious one, not an argument one. Cause I have wonder this about you, Grainger and the others. Why didn’t you fake suck up to the top brass for a minute, and get on a seminar stage and then come out on stage and spread what you believe to the whole group there? That would have made a splash for sure in your cause

  247. Chris permalink
    January 27, 2014 6:40 pm

    But in all honestly, looking at how it is a bracket scale. And how I climb it, and I see my Brother climb it and make money through the bracket system. I just don’t understand where the scam part comes in. Like a person spends $100 bucks to get $250 dollars of product today. Then they buy what they want to buy as a choice. Then as they buy and build it puts them higher on the brackets. I just don’t understand the catch to it. I mean, I understand setting up a meeting and not get a big check instantly or a “No” is a pain. But it is a sales gig and that is how sales work. So I don’t get the scam side. You just climb up the brackets. I would like to know why you think THE BRACKET part is a scam. Don’t talk about lost time and stuff – I get that part and it is too easy an attack and other business have that same issue. Just explain how the bracket scale is a hoax. Politely, I make peace with you guys. I just wanna know. So no need to fight anymore. I am just curious.

  248. Cali permalink
    January 27, 2014 7:24 pm

    So you don’t care about making money in this thing?

  249. Chris permalink
    January 28, 2014 12:37 am

    money is a tool. I of course would like to have some money to advance my means. But money is not very vital to me. I would be fine with turbo 50 level. I am a single father. I enjoy time more then money. I also enjoy having solid principals nicely packaged to show my kids that such information exsists. But money has never hooked me. I like passion. I love job excellence. I like it when people shut up and work. I like when they do the task with pride and don’t cry about it. It is what made the world great. Performance pride. And I look at Tim marks, Cluade Hamilton and Wayne Macnamara. These guys love what they do, they have passion for it and they just embrace progress. I am attracted to that. I don’t care about millions or dollars or recognition on stages. I like self respect for a job well done and a job that matters in a way to the people around you. I just respect the passion those 3 guys share. And I wanna be around that. Not the yachts or Spanish mansions or 100,000 a month stuff. I have no hobbies, no big material dreams. I just have a love for my kids and I wanna see them grow up in a world that doesn’t just bitch about everything that isn’t perfect. Nothing but negative blame game crap everywhere. People get so off track for what life is really all about. Sure there is something to insult in there. But It my life, my choices and I don’t really care if you guys think I am niave or whatever. This business displays quality traits. And I like that. Not a blind faith. Orrin doesn’t own me. But he has a few leaders that intice me for sure. But I don’t act like the rest. I don’t worship the alter of the LLR. I just like the materials life produces. Find them useful and valuable. And if I can make some money and help people out – why is that a problem. Don’t really get it.

  250. Melanie Morgan permalink
    January 28, 2014 6:57 am


    You came here to play games? It is not my purpose to fight with you, you called me on here nor am I here for revenge against anyone and I definitely won’t waste my precious time on playing games with people’s live. There is an entire Team/LIEf full of people harming society doing that. Good luck with your life , Chris.

    Now please excuse me, while I get back to my life.

  251. Chris permalink
    January 28, 2014 8:15 am

    I agree Critics are annoying. So lets all start an open somewhere. For free and discuss ideas

  252. Vogel permalink
    January 28, 2014 8:47 am

    Chris said: “I just like ruffling your feathers guys. I know there are other choices besides LIFE. I just generally enjoy the cds and books and seminars. To me it is worth 50 bucks a month for the cds and book. Which is fine, my money, my choice to buy what consumer goods I want.”

    So you’re basically saying that you haven’t been genuine and you’re here simply to be an a-hole and waste people’s time, because doing so amuses you. That’s pretty much what I expected from the get go after reading your banal comments, but people here have been nice enough to go through the motions with you anyway. Since you like to behave like a disruptive sociopath, I’d have to agree with you that college and regular employment probably aren’t in your future.

    Your argument here seems to boil down to something along the lines of “if I want to pay $20 for a brand new $10 bill, that’s my prerogative and you can’t stop me.” That premise is true; I can’t stop you and I wouldn’t want to. In fact, I encourage you to do this and go a step further – simply burn your cash in a bonfire. I can’t imagine anyone being dumb enough to really believe the nonsense you’re trying to peddle here. Seems that you’re really just a shill trying to play devil’s advocate.

    Chris said: “But in all honestly, looking at how it is a bracket scale. And how I climb it, and I see my Brother climb it and make money through the bracket system. I just don’t understand where the scam part comes in.”

    Yes you do. You’re just pretending to be obtuse. You know exactly why it’s a scam. If you or your brother were making substantial money at this, then (a) you’d be able to prove it and (b) it would mean you left a trail of revenue-negative losers in your downline wake. For everyone who wins, roughly 99 people will lose. Can’t argue with simple mathematical realities.

    Chris said: “But money is not very vital to me.”

    Then you found a perfect opportunity to not make any. No need to change a thing.

    Chris said: “I like self respect for a job well done and a job that matters in a way to the people around you.”

    It is just plain dead wrong to call participation in LIEf “a job”. That’s just part of LIEf’s scammy fantasy world — making people thing they are employed when they are actually paying out money. Few pursuits in the world could be less meaningful or merit less respect in the grand scheme of things then the kind of “work” that LIEFers do.

    Chris said: “I like when they do the task with pride and don’t cry about it. It is what made the world great. Performance pride. And I look at Tim marks, Cluade Hamilton and Wayne Macnamara. These guys love what they do, they have passion for it and they just embrace progress.”

    Tsk, tsk…how sad. You’re clearly delusional. They are petty commen; bad actors; transparent liars. They put on these performances to fool rubes and hayseeds into parting with their money, just like greasy conniving snakeoil salesmen have been doing to country bumpkins since time immemorial. You’re either one of the rubes or one of the perpetrators; there’s really no middle ground. As for “pride”, the Bible says that’s not a good thing.

    “I just have a love for my kids and I wanna see them grow up in a world that doesn’t just bitch about everything that isn’t perfect.”

    If you love your kids than imagine them saying something like this: “No, we don’t talk to dad anymore. He was always hitting us up for money and ranting about his LIEf cult stuff and I just couldn’t handle it anymore…too sad and depressing.” In a sense, I guess your involvement in LIEF could be useful as a negative role model – e.g. “man, I better study hard or I might end up like my ne’er-do-well father”.

    Chris, if you were to simply say that you like the twaddle that LIEF spews and you’re willing to burn money to sit around and be entertained by it, then that’s your choice and no one can argue with it. But make no mistake about it; that is not a business and it is not the vision that LIEf is trying to sell to people. It seems like TEAM/LIEf has degenerated from a business idea (a seller of MLM sales tools) into a really bad motivational seminar series, and that Orrin is just grasping at straws since the demise of Monavie. But this idea is so incredibly bad that I can predict with 100% certainty that it will end badly and leave many disaffected people in its wake.

  253. Former Round Table permalink
    January 28, 2014 9:31 am

    Vogel, you rock.

  254. Chris permalink
    January 28, 2014 12:46 pm

    I didn’t know I was such a useless piece of shit. Thank you vogel. I have a clearer picture of your guys side of the coin just from his post. People who oppose you are total idiots. Funny how on one hand you talk about how bad Team is, but then you guys can come up with such evil mean ways to bully the one disapprover. It is conflicting info. An asshole who thinks they are good a person can not really tell you who is an asshole. P.s. 20 people vs 20,000. YOur losing the influence war. A.K.A. your enemy is kicking your butts. 🙂

  255. Vogel permalink
    January 28, 2014 1:11 pm

    Right on cue Chris, you use the last arrow in your quiver — playing the victim card. The only thing missing was the violin in the background. I salute you with my backside.

  256. Cali permalink
    January 28, 2014 1:53 pm

    Well, this turned from sad to funny real quick.

  257. January 28, 2014 2:39 pm

    Chris, you’re either new & naive (under 50 plans) or a plant. Either way, thanks for playing, we have some nice parting gifts for you backstage. Quit stumbling around & flailing with your arms out; pull your underpants back from over your head and grab them on your way out.

    Please don’t let this experience make you change your name when you come back in a few months and share your Team Q & A story.

  258. Melanie Morgan permalink
    January 28, 2014 4:45 pm


    You are hysterical! 🙂


    Lest understand the “teaching moment”, Chris.

    You showed up here; vehemently dished up your hate and attacks….you were looking for a fight…and told everyone you didn’t like “whiners” and spewed “Don’t cry like a baby and destroy his followers.”

    Then, admitted your motive was to play games! Now you want to grab your crying towel and little red wagon and run off crying like a baby, the very thing you accused others of and basically said you hate?!

    I tried Chris, told you should have taken Vogel up on his offer. Tried my best to treat you with as much decency as I could even after you attacked.

    Hope you learned your lesson now.

    Moral: If you plan on dishing it out, you better plan on taking it, don’t pick a fight and expect people to roll over and probably shouldn’t ” bring a knife to a gun fight”….you really don’t know who you are messing with. You just got schooled.

  259. freedomhaha permalink
    January 29, 2014 7:32 am

    Chris- You mentioned that you don’t care about making money in LIFE which is totally fine. What I wonder is if you are okay with taking money from other people? Less than 1% of the people that you will sign up will make a profit. Now that you have the facts before you the choice is on you.

  260. Melanie Morgan permalink
    January 29, 2014 8:05 am


    Notice not one of them ever want to address that fact? And if the real arrogant ones attempt it, they will say something close to “if you don’t do the work”,,,blah, blah, blah, can’t expect something for nothing BS or in “every business” their are failures…Sadly, and it disgust me to no end that I now know Orrin & mob knew people were failing on purpose and set up to fail all along by design…but chose to spread false hope and many false promises.


    “It seems that the rule in MLMs like Monavie/TEAM/LIEf is that whatever the kingpins say, the exact opposite is true; and the louder they say something, the bigger the lie. It must really mess with their victims’ heads to have their thought processes turned upside down like that. How debilitating.”

    Yes it does mess with your head even long after you are gone, but eventually and thankfully, you see it for what it is;… evilness…You understand and explain, so clearly.

    You do ROCK! 🙂

  261. Melanie Morgan permalink
    January 29, 2014 8:28 am

    One last comment for Chris, cuz I know your reading 🙂 I meant what I said, I hope you do some soul searching and ask yourself some serious questions including ones about morality. I do believe deep down you know it has not made you a better Dad or person, and that I feel bad for you.

    But you said:P.s. 20 people vs 20,000. YOur losing the influence war. A.K.A. your enemy is kicking your butts.

    About your final attempt to play the victim and antagonize, just wanted you to know, I don’t think you believe that we are “losing” anything, because if you did you would have never came here in the first place!

    Chris, I showed you respect and decency and you intentionally disrespected me, so if you come back, at least have the common curtsey to come with your full real name because I don’t believe you have been honest, I think you have been in a long time. It also tells me someone sent you here to specifically call me out, so who was Chris?

  262. Vogel permalink
    January 29, 2014 1:49 pm

    Hah! They parachute in here expecting to find docile sheep to fleece and instead are met by black belt A-Team commandos. It’s almost comical.

    You guys all rock!

  263. Melanie Morgan permalink
    January 30, 2014 10:35 am

    Too sad for those poor loyal pawns who just follow the mob bosses orders to attack “their enemies” and send them into their own created “war”… prepared only with a rubber knife in a grenade and rocket launching missile fight.

    Then the poor souls return to get berated for their poor performance. Poor souls can’t win for losing.

  264. freedomhaha permalink
    February 3, 2014 9:46 am

    Chris- Dinner on me at your restaurant of choice if you can prove that you aren’t stealing from 99% of your downline.

    PS: I am willing to send a gift card, so you can pick the guest of your choice.


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