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We Aren’t Doctors, Financial Planners, or Counselers… We Just Pretend To Be Them On Stage

May 17, 2011

I have to start reading George Guzzardo’s blog more often. In his latest post, Guzzardo expounds on the virtues of LIFE program set up by the Top 25 Leadership Guru’s Orrin Woodward and Chris Brady. George, you have old information. Orrin is a Top 7 Leadership Guru. Hurry up and issue a brand-new blog post with the correction!

All kidding aside (for the moment), check out this quote from George’s blog post:

People from various social and economic backgrounds have merged together to create a learning culture that focuses on helping people find solutions in meaningful areas of life like relationships, finances, and health.

So, Orrin, members of the Policy Council, and the local leaders, they do what now exactly? When they started in Amway decades ago, they taught people how to become intelligent consumers. Next, they go to MonaVie, and suddenly they are experts in the acai berry and its purported health benefits. Now, they are transitioning to this LIFE thing and counseling people on relationships, finances and health?

Many of these people aren’t even qualified to speak about these topics, let alone to hundreds or thousands of people at a time. Last I checked, to be an expert, many fields require you to have a degree from an accredited university. Oops, I forgot, you don’t need to go to college in order to talk about these things on TEAM!

When people begin to take their eyes off their own problems and look to helping others through service, they forget to worry and have less stress because they are not focused on their own world. Service to others becomes the reward because there is joy found in making a difference… You can’t worry about yourself while you’re focused on helping someone else.

Right, and after two years of servicing Orrin and his cronies, one comes to the realization that one’s bank accounts have been drained to the tune of over $12,000 ($500/month for those counting at home). Orrin definitely wants you to become servants, servants to TEAM and his bank account!

Don’t get me wrong, it’s a great idea to focus on areas like your health, finances and relationships. But, do you need to spend 17-25% of the month attending meetings to learn you this? Do you need to pay someone $500/month to tell you that you can do it? No, the best thing you can do is get the same material from the library and do it yourself in the 17-25% of the time you’d spend sitting in some hotel room listening to people tell you what to do! You’ll save yourself time and money in the long-run.

Orrin Woodward, Chris Brady, George Guzzardo… they pretend that they are health specialists, financial gurus, and relationship counselors on stage. Don’t ever forget that!

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140 Comments leave one →
  1. TOD permalink
    May 17, 2011 5:46 am

    One thing the Team is qualified to teach is how to work every possible angle to get money out of their people. Even the IRS thinks Team and its F.A.I.L. system might be gouging people a little too much.

  2. webelieved permalink
    May 17, 2011 6:13 am

    Amthrax you got it right!!! Experts???? Now that is hilarious!!!!! Instead just go to the library and read some books and you can call yourself and expert too!!!
    Better yet, I need to start a new business.
    You can call me and I will tell you “You can do IT!” I will charge you a lot less money…. LOL. and you won’t have to leave the comfort of your own home!!!! I can give book reports on the books I am reading and I will charge less then $25!!!!! You can have complete access to my great knowledge and mentor with me on why I believe the business your involved with is decieving and using cult indoctrination . I can help you live your true life, intentionally. I will set up a guru website and ask my friends to vote for me and then I can be in the TOP 7 gurus unknown to the world!! I could write a book of my story with Team with documentation and pre-sell it to all my friends on Amthrax. Then I can brag that it is a bestseller!!! Now make sure you all order cases of them and give them away to all your friends!!!!! You can preorder now!
    LOL

  3. I Quit ( and glad I Did) permalink
    May 17, 2011 8:37 am

    They must know what they’re talking about! They most certainly are experts in all fields they cover in any talk they give! How do I know? Because I’ve been to the inner sanctum in their homes! Yes, I’ve entered into the vault of knowledge in several of the guru’s homes! Their libraries! Can’t you people figure out that all you have to do to be an expert on something is read a bunch of books about it? Who needs mentorship when you reach guru status? The answer is you don’t! Who mentors the gurus huh? AUTHORS!!! I’m an expert on manually operated, cardboard shipping container enclosing, polyethelene dispensing, single side adhesive strip, binding material dispensers. How? Its simple- I read the owners manual 27 times. I am now fully qualified to mentor with the UPS guy who comes to my loading dock every day! I’M GONNA BE RICH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  4. May 17, 2011 10:23 am

    Just say you are successful and if anyone questions you, just show them pictures of sports cars and mansions. That should shut them up. 🙂

  5. humiliated permalink
    May 18, 2011 7:17 am

    It really is a testament to how so many people are lost and looking for someone to tell them how to live their lives. I don’t think that everyone gets into all of these organizations out of greed, but because they are searching for somewhere to belong, to fit in and maybe even to grow. These are the people I am most afraid for, the ones that actually believe the crap that these leaders are spewing out.

    I don’t dismiss all of the leaders discussions (I can’t bring myself to say “teachings because to me this is just a glorified book club) based on the books that they “choose” to read and share because I am sure there is some valuable information disseminated. But as you have all said, you can find this material either free of charge or at a greatly reduced price so why pay someone to read it for you? Also, I would hate to have someone tell me what ideas to embrace, I like the freedom of choice, to read many books on one given subject and take what resonates with ME personally from each of them.

    These “leaders” have NO idea what they are doing, are not licensed, qualified or certified to give any sort of advice. If you need financial advice, go see a financial advisor or read LazyMan’s blog! If you need help with your relationship, see a marriage counsellor or your church Pastor. If you need “life” advice, do the work yourself or get a life coach. If you need friends, you don’t have to buy ’em (like you do in TEAM & MonaVie), ditto with a mentor, just go out and BE a good friend. Join a club.

    We, as a society, have to stop looking for answers in all of the wrong places. We have to start thinking for ourselves. Do the work ourselves.

    There is a difference between connecting with people and losing your identity. There is a difference between right and wrong. TEAM’S teaching nurture the stripping of autonomy and individuality and they encourage very “wrong” behavior with all of this focus on unattainable material wealth. Throw in these despicable “behind closed doors” side deals and I really wonder why even one single person is involved with these shysters.

    A lot of these scams like TEAM & MonaVie et al prey on people that have lost their way and need “structure” in their lives…but they only structure they get is a pyramid shaped one…

  6. Huperdeim permalink
    May 18, 2011 2:18 pm

    humiliated – amazing post! I too feel deeply for those who are looking for structure and guidance and end up getting sucked into this kind of thing. What can we do for them? It pains me so much, especially when it is a close friend. It makes me feel as though I will lose that friendship and I don’t know what to do. It doesn’t help to worry and be anxious, though that’s what I find myself doing. Is prayer the only way?

    I can’t understand how so many people are so easily seduced into giving up their logic and critical thinking skills. Can’t one go to a meeting and see 100 people there and realize that “I HAVE to be the ONLY person in this room who will EVER make money in this business”? How in the world does this make sense? It’s right on the IDS from 2009!

  7. webelieved permalink
    May 18, 2011 4:48 pm

    I believe that people do not freely give up their critical thinking that it is taken through a slow purposeful process. It is unrecognizable. You are decieved and only given a small glimpse of things in a slow process so that you can accept it, because if you saw it all at once you would run. But logic is not used, emotions and purpose are used to get you hooked. Leaders are trained how to manipulate people and relationships unknowingly, and to love bomb new people so that they feel people care. It is such a positive enviroment it seduces you, especially if you have high morals and ideals for the world. Integrity and high morals and values are taught and critical thinking is stripped by stop thinking techniques that are used right from the begining. Mentoring is used to control you and your thinking. And edification is used to the highest degree so that you will lift these people on a pedastal and you will not question them or their motives. You trust your friend who brought you in and their judgements on the business. Making a difference is highly used so you think you are helping people. Now we realize a lot of things were half truths. A new example brought up here: if someone hits a level, you believe the business works. Yet as some have said here, maybe they bought their way to that level? That is deception and lying that most will never know about. You are told not to talk to people that are not in your downline, so if someone did know the real truth that was not in your downline you would never find out. You are taught not to look at the internet or anything negative.We had noone telling the truth abouy Team on the net. You are told who you can and cannot talk to . Told not to talk to anyone that quit, they were a loser. You are taught to just trust your leaders and their motives. They are godly.
    It is so sad I fell for this. I really did believe these people were my friends and that I was making a positive difference in people’s lives. But let me tell you, most of the leaders I thought were my friends pretend I do not exist, even before I started telling my story. So all the love and care is B.S.
    They care about their money the most.
    If you want to help someone read Combatting Mind Control by Steve Hasan.

  8. webelieved permalink
    May 18, 2011 4:56 pm

    I want you to know this indoctrination takes a short amount of time if you become fully involved. All of your free time is taken slowly and then listening to cd’s, reading blogs, house plans, pv parties, promotions, checking messages, answering phone, busy, busy. They take you away from your real life and trap you mentally, making you dependent on them, and you won’t even know it You have to report in to your upline almost every thing you do, every decision you make. I cannot imagine now living this way, and putting all my trust in a few strangers. I am so glad to be a free thinker again, and have my creative mind back. It was a long road in hell but now I am free!!!!! And wow do they look brainwashed to me now.

  9. humiliated permalink
    May 19, 2011 6:30 am

    Thanks Huperdeim. I know your pain and I empathize with you, but I agree that you should be reading everything on mind control, cults and brainwashing that you can. Maybe there is a technique that jumps out at you that you think would be successful for your friend.

    @webelieved, that is also a very good point. No one goes in thinking they are being lied to because they are brought in by someone they trust. I think if you “happened” upon the meeting walking along the street, or read about a meeting on the internet or in the newspaper, the chances of going are pretty slim for most of us.

    I also know that being told that you can “help the world” when you are wealthy is another emotional heart string that they tug at, I mean, who doesn’t want to do that?

    All I can see is that it pleases me that high level people are jumping ship and I really hope that they don’t just go to another, “fresher’ scam, but that they see the pain and anguish their actions have caused and make amends.

  10. Speak Your Truth permalink
    May 19, 2011 9:30 am

    Webelieved~
    That is very clear description of how the system works and how we all get sucked in all the while believing we are doing something noble and helping others. Those who have been in and around know that to be the truth.
    It is a slow, then spead up process to consuming every area of your life. They are so clever at this(but that is what con’s do) and get you to never question because absolutely no ‘negative’ is allowed which makes it ‘appear’ that they are the most Godly people, next to Mother Theresa and Mohamed Gandhi.
    It becomes so believable because they are always ‘happy & postive,’ and never show their ‘real,’ true selves or express what they really feel. It is all rehearsed and you eventually become conditioned to exspressing any ‘true’ feelings.
    They constantly reinforce this through peer pressure, modeling and listening to CD’s, and then you become dependent and do everyone else does, without question (avoid ridicule). They reinforce their ‘agenda’ and how ‘they’ want you to believe and think through a postitive message of ‘hope’ and you ‘becoming a better person’ and ‘helping others’ that it plays right into your desires, who wouldn’t want that?
    The destruction comes because eventually you without even knowing, think this is exactly what you are doing. Every book selected and every topic of any talk and every quote they repeat, relentlessly plays right into their agenda and solidifies what they want you to believe either about yourself or them. They follow it up with the ‘biblical’ (guilt) and to confirm all they are telling you is pure & holy.
    It isn’t until, you see their dark side which is protected like the holy grail, but when they made the fatal errors during the registration, it awoke us from the ‘holier than thou’ ‘spotless character’ that they had a million times, through edification, convinced everyone they had. It was then the light started to shine on the darkness and their real motives became crystal clear.
    Thank God, every con eventually makes those fatal errors and gets caught.

    Humiliated~ The ‘fresher’ scam is the saddest and such a true statement, we have had many people that have left and got into ‘fresher’ scams and have invited us to join them because of the strong hold; of “MLM’s are the only way to can be truely free” so ingrained in them. The failure rate is never spoke of, contrary they use the belittling that ‘average’ people don’t make it in anything, are you going to be average? And many more statements to manipulate and guilt you. We decided way back that we would never, ever get into another ‘scam’ again.
    Thank goodness for people who speak out and share the truth of the 99% failure rates. It is undeniable but as weblieved stated it is based on emotions so really hard for some to see through the smoke & mirrors.

  11. June 21, 2011 9:38 am

    I am definitely curious to try and understand the thinking behind all the people posting on this website that are negative towards Team.

    I can probably, accurately say that I have more experience behind the scene’s with Team than anyone here posting. Now, fortunately, all the tainted views you all have of Team I can actually relate to! for sure! But, One of the books in the Team System I’d like to reference before I post is “The Psychology Of Winning” – Dr. Denis Waitley and one of the chapters teaches you how to view life with the proper perspective and how to become more self aware.

    Page 32, 1/2 way down… “Rather than hearing what you want to hear, listen for the facts of the matter. And remember, everything you think is your opinion, based upon your impressions from limited sources. Keep expanding your sources from the best authorities. View everything with a certain open-minded skepticism…open-minded enough to explore it without prejudice…and skeptical enough to research and test its validity.”

    Now I want to make sure that we all want to seek after truth here, together. If you all believe that you are all 100% correct with your opinions and are unwilling to consider a different perspective, then this will be my first and last post.

    The struggles that I have gone through with the Team and all the hours logged of listening to the good leadership audios and the books read is what went on my resume while applying for a job a few months back. This position I applied for required a BS degree, preferring a MS degree, and a whole list of several requirements. All of which I did not have. It was because of my leadership education that George Guzzardo is describing above that landed this high paying job with out a college degree. Leadership training and entrepreneurial skills training with an emphasis on the study of people is the reason I can support my wife and daughter financially.

    Again, if you are all willing to have an intelligent discussion without losing tempers and bashing the other party, than I’ll gladly participate! Infact, I’m looking forward to it!

    Sorry to hear about so many hurting hearts and so many losses. Not everyone I have met on Team is good either.

    Looking forward to your response.

    God Bless!

  12. Speak Your Truth permalink
    June 21, 2011 5:10 pm

    Understand the thinking?lol heard that one before. Bring your facts, your tainted view and your opinion.
    Struggles? Don’t assume you have crediblity because you say you know more than others and have behind the scenes experience. And how would you know this? Why wouldn’t use your name? Don’t assume we are buying your understanding or crediblity we have witness enough of the false humility. You better be willing to bring the facts to all the issues. Hope you have some serious documentation, throwing names don’t impress either. Especially PC names. One last thing let us know the truth of your motive for coming?

  13. webelieved permalink
    June 21, 2011 5:12 pm

    The Other Guy-
    Just wondering if you know so much about Team then why do you need a job? We earned much more than a job income with Team at one time. We knew Orrin personally do you?
    What level were you in the business? Why don’t you share your level? Or do you work in the office?
    I am glad for you about your job, but that doesn’t make Team practices legit, legal or ethical. Have you read all posts on EX-TEAM COMMENTS?
    OUR EXPERIENCES ARE THE TRUTH, and unless you were there you cannot legitimately say they are not. There are lots of witnesses and documentation!
    I would love to hear the facts you think you know. By the way, did you get the facts from the financial books at the Team office or is it what your upline told you?
    The books looked at by a third party are the only facts I am interested in.
    If you are making a income from Team then you have every reason to come on here and try to discredit us to save your money. What would be our ulerior motive?
    By the way GOD blesses me everyday and I thank Him everyday for showing me the scam that TEAM is! 🙂 🙂

  14. Speak Your Truth permalink
    June 21, 2011 6:22 pm

    Your Dennis Waitley would apply to you. What was this job you got?

  15. Dorothy permalink
    June 21, 2011 6:52 pm

    This commenter requested that her comments be removed from this site.

  16. webelieved permalink
    June 22, 2011 5:58 am

    The Other Guy-
    I would like to request you read all the posts at Ex-Team Comments here on Amthrax’s site,
    Merchants of Deception by Eric Schreibler listed to the right , Combatting Cult Mind Control by cult expert Steve Hasan and the BITE model at http://www.freedomofmind.com
    Since I believe most on here have read most of the Team books and listened to most of the cds….it is only fair you learn some new information. Then we can have a good conversation with education from all sides. And for good measure, did you call the leaders that left Team and ask them why? like Pastor Dickie, Orrin’s mentor for years? I think this would be a good start to a legitimate conversation since you seem to think we have limited information. By the way your condescending attitude isn’t becoming. Please answer my questions above, We are waiting with baited breathe…….

  17. webelieved permalink
    June 22, 2011 6:12 am

    Humiliated-
    “It really is a testament to how so many people are lost and looking for someone to tell them how to live their lives. I don’t think that everyone gets into all of these organizations out of greed, but because they are searching for somewhere to belong, to fit in and maybe even to grow. These are the people I am most afraid for, the ones that actually believe the crap that these leaders are spewing out.”
    Your post above is great! I also believe this, most people are looking for a place to belong. Team uses this and financial enticement to use these people. The care and love is fake, because when you no longer associate, they bash you and pretend you don’t exist- hence the relationships are fake manipulations at best. Thanks for the post Humiliated, I must have missed it. I agree they are not qualified and objective enough to mentor anyone in any area in life, except if someone want to learn how to decieve, manipulate and use people.

  18. webelieved permalink
    June 22, 2011 6:15 am

    Humiliated-
    “It really is a testament to how so many people are lost and looking for someone to tell them how to live their lives. I don’t think that everyone gets into all of these organizations out of greed, but because they are searching for somewhere to belong, to fit in and maybe even to grow. These are the people I am most afraid for, the ones that actually believe the crap that these leaders are spewing out.”
    Your post above is great! I also believe this, most people are looking for a place to belong. Team uses this and financial enticement to use these people. The care and love is fake, because when you no longer associate, they bash you and pretend you don’t exist- hence the relationships are fake manipulations at best. Thanks for the post Humiliated, I must have missed it. I agree they are not qualified and objective enough to mentor anyone in any area in life, except if someone want to learn how to decieve, manipulate and use people for financial gain.

  19. Speak Your Truth permalink
    June 22, 2011 9:17 am

    webelieved~ I agree some other good reading would be Micah 3 and 2 Peter 2

  20. Burned Out With MV permalink
    June 22, 2011 9:21 am

    Well said about the love and care!!!!

    They love and care about you as long as you are spending money and encouriging everything with a pulse you encounter to do the same….. 🙂

    Max out your credit cards and run off all your friends and family, they tolorate you to fill up the seat…. :-/

    Can’t spend anymore money, they don’t know you….. 😦

    Blog about the truth on here, they fear you ………….. 😉

  21. Speak Your Truth permalink
    June 22, 2011 10:28 am

    Great points, still looking foward to those facts that the other guy is looking forward to bringing.

    The Other Guy~ Who would you be speaking of that you mention you met on the Team that isn’t ‘good’?

  22. switch permalink
    June 22, 2011 11:39 am

    ….getting my seat comfy, buttering my popcorn, and waiting patiently for the facts coming forward starting from the beginning with Team.

    Lets hear it.

  23. webelieved permalink
    June 22, 2011 11:46 am

    Burned Out- Have you heard any rumblings from any of them about this site?
    Just wondering, I know someone here said THEY are definitly watching this site! It was One Time Fly I think.
    You are right the truth is coming out, of which we did not create. They chose to lie, cheat and steal from their leaders and others and not follow their own teaching. I think they really believed because of the indoctrination and pressure/fear all the leaders who were screwed over would walk away quietly and never tell the truth. Thanks Amthrax, I am so glad for this site!

  24. switch permalink
    June 22, 2011 2:19 pm

    …..oh, I guess that’s pretty disappointing. I was looking forward to the facts coming forward from the life coach, here.

    One disappointment right after the other.

  25. Burned Out With MV permalink
    June 23, 2011 4:03 am

    I’m not in the loop with the mover and shakers of MLM anymore, I really don’t want to be, I’m just saying from the “Drive By’s” we see on here from time to time it must be pissing somebody off. 🙂

  26. I Quit ( and glad I Did) permalink
    June 23, 2011 1:21 pm

    We’re STILL waiting for answers other guy…..

  27. Speak Your Truth permalink
    June 23, 2011 3:04 pm

    Lmao! Pretty notorious and so predictable, someone bloated with arrogance coming to school others on ‘perspective’, saying he has more experience but won’t mention his name? Orrin bashes ‘anonymous bloggers’ and then his with the Dennis Waitley quote and then threaten they won’t be back because we are not willing to take their word for anything and we better be nice. LOL Seriously, they haven’t earned an ounce of respect, come here to tell us they have more experience, like that is going to stop the world to listen, quite the contrary, we don’t live in their delusional idol worshiping world.

    We are supposed to crumble because he mentions George G. having him dig up a quote that they think servers their agenda, that what we say is just our ‘opinion’, no; what we think of the scammers may be our opinion, and our opinion is based on the lies, deception and corruption and running the a scam, that we know for a fact happened and they are too chicken to address. Only confirms they can’t refute what others have said. There has been a plethora of facts presented here that they obviously avoid like the plaque and never once any of them have tried to refute, because they CAN’T. So, I wish they would stop trying to flatter themselves with that the real world gives a rip about their perspective, I am not interested in ‘their perspective’ just bring the FACTS, we have heard ‘their perspective’, it’s called a dictatorship; for way too many years and know it only serves their agenda. The thing that makes the BS intolerable is their FAKE, ‘God Bless’-I care so much about you, makes me ill, like ‘the other guy’ tried doing. NOBODY would believe that BS, knowing their agenda for even coming here is to ‘shut people up’ and try and throw in it is just their opinion, NOPE, got the facts, WHERE IS HIS FACTS?

    Here’s just a few of the issues that clearly aren’t others ‘opinions’ but people have come here to share the facts that they are sooo afraid to address, but their silence and not bringing anything to refute these facts backed up by their facts; says it all and they know is the TRUTH!
    Here is just a few off the top of my head.

    The, Stealing, Trading, and telling others to put their business illegally in someone else’s name, and manipulating people; during registration to MV.
    The fiasco with the State Attorney General
    Stealing others profit-sharing and teams based by lies, and slander
    Blocking and retrieving others private emails
    Giving others system counts and tickets to the ‘selected’ for their profit-sharing pay that weren’t in their teams ever.
    The Promises of Passive, Residual, Ongoing, Willable, B-type, you can collect for the rest of your life BS.
    The Deceptive recruiting techniques, the lies, deception and much, much, more.
    Bring it.

  28. Speak Your Truth permalink
    June 23, 2011 3:07 pm

    Switch~ You kill me!

    Burned Out w/MV~ You nailed it , they are afraid of the truth and it definitely p*ss*ss them off that other people have exposed it!

  29. Speak Your Truth permalink
    June 23, 2011 10:35 pm

    The day my life became blessed is the day my eyes were opened to the truth and I stopped listening and following this scam and people who lie, decieve and manipulate in the name of greed, power, and idolitry, guilt and pretend they know everything about everything even what you should purchase how much time and money you should spend and what you should miss with your family and even your thinking, incredible and began seeing clearly from and looking to the one and only source that will take care of the rest.
    Just finished reading Nahum, Habakkuk and Jeremiah 8
    Success comes from the good book not pompous people and no one else but yourself and God, decides whether you are a failure or success.
    The end doesn’t justify the means, and cannot be ethically used by individuals for personal greed, profit or self-improvement. There are consequences. Patience and time, so I’m with ya switch on the comfy seat and popcorn. LOL

  30. Burned Out With MV permalink
    June 24, 2011 3:56 am

    IQ ~ doubt we will hear back from TOG

    Speak ~ right on, only reason they can continue to sell is they self create the market with lies and deceptions to folks willing to buy

  31. Rob Thomas permalink
    June 24, 2011 5:11 am

    SYT – what’s your name?

  32. June 24, 2011 9:58 am

    Dear folks on this website: Allow me to refer you to the first part of my post:

    “If you all believe that you are all 100% correct with your opinions and are unwilling to consider a different perspective, then this will be my first and last post.”

    It is obvious that none of you are seeking after truth, but rather to defend position. I’m in awe with how much time and energy is spent hear bashing Team and the people associated with Team. It’s like drinking poison and expecting the other people to die.

    Also, Is there a reason you can’t release your names and what you represent? If what you are doing is so ‘righteous’ and ‘good,’ then why stand behind your convictions with your name?

    If Mr Dennis Waitley’s teaching are not credible to you, then let me direct your focus to Stephen R Covey’s 7 Habbits of Highly Effective People

    “Your attitude and your behavior towards the way you see things must be congruent with the way you see things. To try to change the outward attitudes and behaviors does very little good in the long run if we fail to examine the basic paradigms from which those attitudes and behaviors flow” to which he concludes “Where we stand depends on where we sit”

    I dont believe anyone on here is willing to examine their basic paradigms. “GIVE ME THE FACTS!!!” you shout… “I’ll show you!!” is what you communicate…

    This is why this is more than likely my last post:

    Pg. 28 of 7 Habbits…

    “Each of us tends to think we see things as they are, that we are objective/ BUT, this is not the case. We see the world, not as it is, but as we are – or, as we are conditioned to see it. When we open our mouths to describe what we see, we in effect describe ourselves, our perceptions, our paradigms. When other people disagree with us, we immediately think something is wrong with them….Sincere, clearheaded people see things differently, each looking through the unique lens of experience.”

    Am I saying I am objective and I have all the truth? Probably not. I only believe that I am attempting to be objective. We are all looking at the same thing, disagreeing, and each trying to justify their position. I refuse to take any part of this. Assumption is the lowest level of intelligence. If you think the “Blame Game” is some sort of indoctrination, and all these objective leadership material are all brain washing dictator tactics, then how do you explain me listing all that training on a resume, and landing a job because of it? How do you describe my upline leader who has never gone back on his word, never lied, never cheated, and has spent more time, money, and sweat equity in SIX YEARS, unwavering, to help me?

    “Facts are pesky little things” Ronald Reagan.

    I came to faith in Christ under Paster Robert L Dickie. I have spoken with them about the issue. I did work at the office for 2 years, and was able to develop a relationship with executives outside of Team, as well as get to know several of the Round Table members. I am very close friends with one of the PC members. I have done Bible studies with Christ & Terry Brady. I was a part of the old business and the new. I am looking forward to the release of the L.I.F.E. business. The TEAM is always changing and learning from mistakes. “A crooked line doesn’t know it’s crooked until it compares it’self to a straight line” We are ALL Crooked. We are all imperfect.(please see Romans 1:28-32) To think that it is going to stay the way you all perceive it, is suggesting the 2nd law of thermodynamics…which is, essentially, that everything is naturally decaying… unless outside inputs keep it going (perpetual motion of the 3rd kind)… I’ll let you all run with the ideas behind that. But I digress…

    I am currently a Team builder and leader, Turbo 25 Director. Just a little pee-on probably compared to some of you who have at one point made a 6 figure income.

    I wish to move forward in my career, in life, and forgive those who have trespassed against me.

    If you feel an anger rising up in your hearts against what I am saying here, please consider your paradigm. I am FOR SURE considering mine daily. If you wish to engage in a clearheaded, sincere discussion of the facts, and are willing to agree to disagree, then I would love to unfold a conversation with you.

    I do not have much time, as I love spending quality time with my wife and daughter when I’m not working with my guys in the Team. So the time between posts will be far and few between.

    However, if, again there is bashing, contrite hearts (Galatians 5:15-24) and you have an overtone in your responses suggesting alterior motives to swarm around your ‘bait’ like an aggressive shark, then I will not have any dealings or discussion with any of you. Is that fair? No negative.

    I am looking forward to seeing how this unfolds.

    God Bless!

  33. switch permalink
    June 24, 2011 10:18 am

    If “the other guy” is so proud of announcing that he’s been with team longer than any of the bloggers here, and has had more experience, why is it a problem to show us the facts from the very beginning?

    What’s there to hide?

  34. June 24, 2011 10:33 am

    Ah, switch…Be careful on what I said. I said that I have ‘more experience.’ I’m sure that I haven’t been around the longest. I have only been around for 6 years. But there are only very few people who have been able to see all the behind the scene’s that I have seen. There are more people with more front line experience, probably…but I have more depth, and width into the company than most people. I’m not nieve enough to think that there is someone on here with more. There might be.

    What facts are you looking for? We need to have an agreement on the perspective before we start relinquishing facts. Like I said before “Facts are pesky little things” These “facts” that you want will add no value unless there is an overall agreement to NOT be negative, to be open and sincere, and consider that one might have an incorrect “road map” as Stephen Covey would say.

  35. not signed up yet permalink
    June 24, 2011 11:28 am

    What? facts are what they are pure and simple. Team will tell you facts dont matter but the dream does. facts are not pesky little things.

    2 + 2 = 4

    Thats a fact, it cant equal waht ever you want it to. You cant have an agreement on the perspective of that simple math problem because 4 is the only and one answer.

    If team is so great, then why cant I get any financials from them? And I dont mean MV IDS, I mean a clear rundown of profit and loss from TEAM. Why cant I get any solid verifiable proof that the system actually does work. If team wantsw me to invest a minimum of 500 bucks a month and alot of hours in training showing the plan, conferences and seminars, then show me what I need to see so I can make an informed
    decision.

    I’m not being negative, I am asking for solid business information that is not being released. Heres a fact I have asked for this information 3 times…once from my sponsor, once form his upline and once from the uplines upline. All 3 times I dont get an answer and got a contract and a pen shoved in my face to get started.
    This dotn be negative stuff is really getting to me. People here have been burned and have had negative expereinces with team. So what if these negative experience are really true? How is is these people fault if an upline or the TEAm let tehm down, didnt deliver on thier promises and TEAM is not what it says it is?

  36. Burned Out With MV permalink
    June 24, 2011 11:28 am

    OK, I’ll play along with this and not do any bashing.

    What is the true first year start up cost of the TEAM training system full up?

    What is product cost for personal use and for samples / demonstation purposes?.

    What is the profit margin?

    At what point do we see and ROI?

    What is the 3 month, 9 month, 1 year and 2 year attrition rates?

  37. not signed up yet permalink
    June 24, 2011 11:49 am

    Other Guy

    what about this fact directly on MV IDS. Less than 1% of MV distributors actually make profit. Thats from MV, not us. Lets have an agreement of the perspective on that. To me that means TEAM MV has a 99% failure rate.

    Please show me where I am wrong on this, or how this fact doesnt matter.

  38. June 24, 2011 12:23 pm

    Alright! Now we may talk like gentleman! (unless one of you is a lady, then..like civilized people) 🙂

    Ok, 1st things 1st: As far as the actual financials, I do not have that detailed out. I do know that the Team pays out to its directors 64% of its revenue! This means that only 36% of the money coming in actually goes to the cost of paying for the Office and their expenses. What those exact dollar amounts are, I don’t quite know. I was never given that info.

    BUT, let’s talk about perception, Ok so you said 2+2=4. That is a fact. However, it is a free county, so someone is free to believe that 2+2=5! If that person had the assumption that 2+2=5, then it doesn’t matter ANY other mathematical equation we presented for that person, they would ALWAYS draw the wrong conclusion. Facts aren’t always cut and dry. For example, I read a book called the “Go Giver” where it teaches people that giving isn’t necessarily better than receiving, but it is a natural occurring. If You don’t receive, then you rob someone else from giving. BUT, some people believe that it is 100% better to give than to receive, which is like saying, “What’s better for your body, to breathe in, or breathe out?” Well, the answer to you and me is obvious! They are both equally important. Does this make sense?

    WIth that being said, lets address the IDS briefly. But let me preface it with a scenario:

    Building depth on the Team, is all a numbers game. There are 2 sides to your business. (right leg and left leg) think of each leg as a store. Your goal is to drive traffic into each store. The first leg (generally speaking) is the apprentice leg, where you’ll learn how to actually drive people in. Once you learn that set of skills, and gain some proficiency in learning the system, then you start your second leg and take what you learned in your apprenticship leg, and apply. This is what makes it performance based. Anyone can get in and do no work and let their upline or down line build their biz for them and collect $ if it was just one leg. Those ARE illegal business, because its a sign up game “who ever gets in FIRST gets the most money” if you see these things…RUN. What makes it an even playing field, is this concept of a 2nd organization.

    Now lets say you get in, and in 1 day you get 100 people (100 people in 24 hours!) Now, because of that, you are entered into the 1% of the people making some money. However, it is a numbers game…so you have the 99 others moving in that direction. So lets say in the very next day (within another 24 hours) I have ALL 100 people, a 100 people each! WOW, that would be some EXPLOSIVE GROWTH! However, that STILL would only be 1% of the people making it.

    See, the question isn’t “what’s the percent of people making it?” because its a numbers growth business. The question is, how many people are able to jump into that 1%, and how legit is it, and how fast can I do that?

    I hope that makes sense.

    But see, with this new understanding of how the business works, I hope that can bring some insight to what I meant by “Facts are pesky little things.”

    I am very encouraged that you three who have responded are willing to discuss feelings and experience (even though you and/or people you know got burned) under a cool tongue. Thank you sincerely!

    I am being forced out of my expo that I am sitting at, so I must adjourn.

    Please comment and keep asking great questions! “Let us reason together” Is 1:18

    God Bless!

  39. I Quit ( and glad I Did) permalink
    June 24, 2011 12:53 pm

    My question is this: How can someone who calls himself a “Christian Leader” intentionally break the law? How can this person support a decision to steal someones business and give it to other people? Before you start to reply with “Who did these things?” I invite you to read through this blog very carefully and you’ll find the answers to these questions. These actions voided all credibility for me. END of conversation. There is nothing you can say that will change these FACTS or my stance. So go ahead and flap away…

  40. not signed up yet permalink
    June 24, 2011 1:27 pm

    Of course we have a free country, but try taking a college algerbra class enter whatever numbers you want and see if you pass a final. That will not get you far.

    Other guy, I already have a business. I have to watch costs and control them, not spend out tha wazzo like team wants you to. Some of the business questions liek a simple profit and loss statement or actaul real annual numbers. If I am going to invest in Boeing or Microsoft or Apple or Verizon, they’d give me the numbers. We cant even get any numbers and the profit margin of a case of MV. Why is that so dificult to answer?

    Why are simple straightforward questions either glossed over or deflected? This is the stuff I also need to know. All I am asking for is for TEAM to be open and up front about everything…and so far they have not been.

    What is team hiding? What are you not telling the down line who you are supposed to pumps up and help make them weathly?

    You are director, and you cant tell us wha tthe annual revenues of team and mv are? That sends up alot of red flags.

    I am still in contact with my sponsor who is still trying to get me
    on board. He keeps asking what is holding me back …y’all heard that one. And I simply tell him, tell me about teh business, not the dream. I am a big picture guy so I need to know how everything works..marketing operations, budgeting, product…things real business owners need to know not just the distribution and recruiting. Answering questions with questions is not cool with me. And it happens many time with you team
    guys.

    Everything I have posted has been through my own personal expereince with team..and even though I havent signed a contract yet or handed
    over money I work very hard for…already I ahve had some bad experiences. Thats on TEAM not me.

  41. not signed up yet permalink
    June 24, 2011 1:35 pm

    Other guy, well thank you also for being civil, but I’d really appreciate direct answers to direct questions.

    Perhaps you dont know the annual revenues of team MV or profits and losses but as a director, you should be able to find out.

    Plenty of them have been posted.

  42. switch permalink
    June 24, 2011 1:57 pm

    not signed up yet-
    Those are perfectly fair questions to ask.

    other guy-
    All I wanted to know is your facts from your beginning with team. If I’m the newbie, and looking to invest the time and money, wouldn’t you think they would want to know the facts from the beginning from when you started six years ago?

    Six years is a long time, you have to know some facts we don’t correct?

    So, for starters and the beginning, lets start with how you built your business from the ground up.

  43. Speak Your Truth permalink
    June 24, 2011 2:32 pm

    The other guy

    A matter becomes clear after 2 or 3 witnesses give evidence.

    You say:”Also, Is there a reason you can’t release your names and what you represent? If what you are doing is so ‘righteous’ and ‘good,’ then why stand behind your convictions with your name?”
    Answer that yourself, what is your name?

    What is this round 2 or 3, is this another one of the master PC plan that O came up with recently. Thought you already tried this route, it didn’t work the first time, that would be called insanity. You are doing what you always do avoid the direct questions and set up your game with those pesky little facts as if they don’t matter. You come on here with a condesending attitude like you are the teacher and the world is the student. Maybe this is what you meant when you called chris brady, Christ?You say you are a director and turbo 25, you wouldn’t be lying about your rank, would you? Hope not,You can have the benefit of the doubt for now, but don’t expect others to look to you for any facts, you wouldn’t have them, not what all the commentors on here are looking for. So be it, I will not waste my time on your forked toungued talk in circles and give no answers and your condeceding you are the teacher everyone else is the student. You cannot be of any help.

    You would be a feast for Vogel, which maybe he will show up, he is skilled at seeing through the BS.

    As for me I already know what your game is, I am not willing to play, unless you start addressing the issues and questions you have already avoided with you slick talking in circles. Good luck, with your mission. Maybe you can proudly report back to your master.
    You are a great fit for the team.

  44. not signed up yet permalink
    June 24, 2011 3:44 pm

    Other Guy- see here is the problem. I am black and white. No grey area with me. I am 100 percent or zero. All in or all out. There is no 99 percent with me. And there is a big 99 percent in the wrong direction on MVs IDS.

    All I have seen from team is one big mass of grey. Team needs to show me everything so I can look at it before I join, not after.

    As matter of fact when I write a contract for a client, I have to be very specific about whats involved with the job, and how long it will take, be very detailed about what my end covers and what it doesnt and the clients responsibilites and be up front on costs.

    Why cant team do that? My first 2 meetigns with my sponsor there was no talk of forking over 139 bucks and ordering cases of stuff and buying books and cds and seminar tickets?

    When I met this guy (my sponsor) I was presented with a Leadership organization group. We met, but he didnt STP, and invited me to a meeting. When Iget to teh meeting now they talk about buying MV and all the other stuff, bash college, throw names around like Chris Brady Tim Marks and others.

    Why cant you guys talk about MV or tools at the very first contact witha person?

    I know the answer but I’d like to hear it from you.

    What if I wanted to learn the stuff on the CDs but not do the MV thing? Is that possible?

    Wheres all the integrity TEAM talks about when you keep information and wont be up front about what you guys do? If you want me to sell MV and buy casese of MV tell me that.I will tell you to take a hike, but you will have at least earned my respect for being honest.

    Example. My not yet sponsor told me to get to a monthly and the system would be explained in detail there. Well, my guy has been with team 4 years, STP 15 times a month goes to every meeting, open, monthly convetion, and major and seminar and wherever else team tells him to go…and he cant explian the plan in detail to me. He certianly seems qualified to explain what the plan is and how it works in detail And I still havent even been offfered a sample of MV to see how great it is.

    I was told to get to an Open to find out what TEAM are all about, then 2 weeks later I am told to get to a monthly so I can find out what they are all about. Id would prefer you tell us what TEAM is about at the first sit down or coffee meeting.

    Logic seems messed up to me. But again please show me where I am wrong.

  45. not signed up yet permalink
    June 24, 2011 3:47 pm

    I will keep asking questions, but please answer them directly openly and honestly and we’ll get along fine.

  46. Speak Your Truth permalink
    June 24, 2011 4:41 pm

    Rob Thomas
    Are you Rob Thomas Halstrand?

  47. webelieved permalink
    June 24, 2011 5:55 pm

    The Other Guy- are you serious? Why don’t you use your real name? IT is amazing you ask for ours. I would never ask anyone to do what I wasn’t willing to do.
    And then you bring back ” Figures surley lie and liars surely figure 1%” b.s. you read or heard on a cd by Chris Brady? How funny you sound like Orrin and Chris. Parroting your upline. Or maybe you are them? It is really unbelievable that anyone believes that garbage! That’s figuring 100% people stay in Team and don’t quit!!! Which we all know IS NOT TRUE! In fact the majority quit and never make a profit or even a paycheck! So then your figure would be much less then 1% that get started with Team make any money EVER! Have you looked at your tree lately? Who are you trying to kid? Then most of those ( much less then 1%) that actually get a paycheck from the Team are claiming a loss on their taxes because the expenses of the “SYSTEM”, and building their “business” costs so much!!! So really only Policy Council and maybe Round Table are making a real profit on their tax return, which we know is spendable income! Now that is out of how many thousands of families? Much less then 1% out of thousands and thousands who are contributing? You may be a director/ Turbo 25 but I would bet it all,you are not making a profit at the end of the year. Unless of course you got a special deal from your Policy Council? How much money are you making? and why did it take 6 years to go turbo 25? That is TERRIBLE! HOLY COW! And you claim to be an authority and are condescending to leaders on this blog?
    Oh let me guess now you will come back and say your in the TEAM for making a difference your not in it for a profit ?
    If the system is so great and duplicatable then why doesn’t everyone or even most stay? I mean they got in for a dream right?…. By the way you still haven’t directly answered any questions we have asked, maybe we need to ask multiple choice or yes/no questions?
    You guys are all amazing at avoiding direct questions and twisting information.
    When Team shows publically the pay stubs of all profit sharers for the last 10 years, the profit sharing formula and profit taken in, and gives us the contracts they refused that we signed, and gives us the money they stole and promised for years, and makes a public apology, and admits to the truth of what they have done, then maybe just maybe we would believe one ounce of what anyone on Team says. You see I followed and took these people for their word and got burned bad, I will never make that mistake again. We have been lied to and stolen from by the people you seem to defend. We do not believe one word they say. And your tactic of blaming the victim is like telling someone who was raped and had witnesses it was thier fault. Oh and by the way their is plenty of truth that is negative. Welcome to the real world. Not our fault what they have done is negative. Sorry…. here you need to live in reality.
    Not signed yet- Ask him to
    bring the directors contracts and post on Amthrax, as well as the large contract we signed that Orrin himself won’t give us and others who were large profit sharers! Bet it won’t happen! Bet you will get the run around! They never answer. I am so glad you see the red flags and can think for yourself. I love your questions and I am sure you have a REAL business just because of the questions you are asking. If the Team is legit, they should be able to answer all your questions with facts and written public documetation. 🙂
    PEOPLE WHO HAVE NOTHING TO HIDE, HIDE NOTHING! –

  48. webelieved permalink
    June 24, 2011 6:33 pm

    Sorry Other Guy- let me make the correction, Rob Thomas asked for Speak’s name, not you. Maybe your upline is ethical, or not? Ours isn’t, and you didn’t experience what I did, so to try to dismiss it as a tainted view is ridiculous and condescending at best. By the way did you read the posts and articles I recommended? Did you call and speak to Pastor Dickie? I did. Did you talk to the leaders that left, or just take your upline’s word for it? as is standard practice on Team.

    Rob Thomas-
    My name is Webelieved 🙂
    Why would anyone give their name when Orrin has proven himself to be sue happy and he clearly has lots more money then all of us together. Didn’t he sue Scott Larsen for being a critic and then later agreed with Scott Larsen and sued Amway for the truth he sued Scott Larsen for? And then didn’t he sue Wikipedia? Wow!
    Actually I wish I could give my name, as it would hold a whole lot more weight with our readers. Maybe I should write a book and then I can put my name, what could we call it? Any Ideas anyone?

    Speak- Hallstrand- Wonder if he got a raise to stay and participate, doesn’t he sign the checks, even though Orrin is really in charge of it all and makes the final decisions? I really wonder how all these people can sleep at night. I would be concerned about my judgement someday. The Lord says he will have his justice. If it was me, I would be trying to make ammends to all the people my actions hurt. I would be admitting what I have done even if it may hurt me financially. This world and it’s silver is temporary. Instead we get attacked, again and again for telling the truth. Amazing the pride and arrogance.
    The Lord says their will be many that decieve and will be decieved. I am so glad he set me free to see and tell the truth! Hallelujah! To him be the Glory!

  49. webelieved permalink
    June 24, 2011 6:37 pm

    Sorry Other Guy- let me make the correction, Rob Thomas asked for Speak’s name, not you. Maybe your upline is ethical? Ours isn’t, and you didn’t experience what I did, so to try to dismiss the truth as a tainted view is ridiculous and condescending at best. By the way did you read the posts and articles I recommended? Did you call and speak to Pastor Dickie? I did. Did you talk to the leaders that left, or just take your upline’s word for it as is standard practice on Team?

    Rob Thomas-
    My name is Webelieved 🙂
    Why would anyone give their name when Orrin has proven himself to be sue happy and he clearly has lots more money then all of us together. Didn’t he sue Scott Larsen for being a critic and then later agreed with Scott Larsen and sued Amway for the truth he sued Scott Larsen for? And then didn’t he sue Wikipedia? Wow!
    Actually I wish I could give my name, as it would hold a whole lot more weight with our readers. Maybe I should write a book and then I can put my name, what could we call it? Any Ideas anyone? 🙂

    Speak- Hallstrand- Wonder if he got a raise to stay and participate, doesn’t he sign the checks, even though Orrin is really in charge of it all and makes the final decisions? I really wonder how all these people can sleep at night. I would be concerned about my judgement someday. The Lord says he will have his justice. If it was me, I would be trying to make ammends to all the people my actions hurt. I would be admitting what I have done even if it may hurt me financially. This world and it’s silver is temporary. Instead we get attacked, again and again for telling the truth. Amazing the pride and arrogance.
    The Lord says their will be many that decieve and many will be decieved. I am so glad he set me free to see and tell the truth! Hallelujah! To him be the Glory!

  50. Dorothy permalink
    June 24, 2011 9:52 pm

    This commenter requested that her comments be removed from this site.

  51. not signed up yet permalink
    June 25, 2011 6:25 am

    Other guy I too recently re read your post and I was stunned. You spend alot of time trying to justify 2 + 2= 5 and then try to justify how a 1% success rate is a good thing.But most of my other questions were not even touched like

    Why isnt monavie or even the TEAm organization mentioned at first contact?

    What is the profit margin on 1 case of Monavie?

    Why cant team be open up front? Why must we get to opens sminars and majors to find out about TEAM?

    And the big one…verifiable proof of success and dont tell me Dan Hawkins Tim Marks and the same half dozen names that they throw at you.

  52. humiliated permalink
    June 25, 2011 8:04 am

    I have been reading “the other guy” ‘s posts with interest. I am so impressed with the way that you all have his/her number. I see reasonable, business related questions being asked and completely ignored or clumsily danced around. It is so blatant, it is embarrassing.

    Dear “other guy” , saying “does that make sense” after making some OW parroted “sound byte “is completely patronizing and belittling, You should be ashamed of yourself coming on here and acting as if you are some sort of “teacher” for us all & using language that you would use for a room full of school children. The people blogging on here have proven that they have been at very high levels within the TEAM scam and clearly know more about it than you. Does THAT make sense, you sanctimonious piece of doo doo? Sorry for the offensive language, but I would rather have someone come on here and openly & angrily blast every one in defense of their misguided TEAM beliefs. I would at least have respect for them because they are speaking honestly, but you are worse because you are a cloying manipulator and deceiver, you are just not very good at it. But all is not lost, keep watching Orrin and most assuredly you will get better at these tactics.

    Dorothy, you amaze me. Your knowledge of the bible is astounding and so is your compassion. Being an atheist I don’t know much about the Bible but I do know that it has some beautiful messages and lessons and I personally would like to thank you for educating me on how these TEAM people are abusing scripture.

    We Believed. I seriously think that you SHOULD write a book. WIth a little legal help to ensure you are protected, although I think libel is very difficult to prove and ANYONE can initiate legal proceedings to scare/threaten someone.like OW does (great Man of God does…what a kind and gentle soul he is).

  53. Steve permalink
    June 25, 2011 8:28 am

    Other Guy

    I remember that speech where it was talked about the 1% of the people make it, while the other 99% are learning, growing, and changing. I remember thinking at the time this makes sense, and it wouldn’t be hard to get 10 new sign ups to sign up 10 of their own contacts. I also remember being in that 1% of the IBO’s, like yourself a turbo 25. When we went from Quixtar, and into MV that all changed. The problem that we all face whether in Quixtar or MV, and it is not talked about is the retention rate or drop out rate as you will. Out of those 100 new sign-ups, what is the actual retention rate? See, if only one of your new 100 sign-ups drop out, then your theory dosen’t work. If your drop out rate is above 50%, which I am sure it is, than you can see how this is misleading people, because the other side of the story is not talked about. I understand the reasons behind talking positive about your business, but when you are trying to prospect others into a business venture, then the questions asked need to be answered truthfully. There needs to be full disclosure for people to make an informed decision. Because of their hidden, mixed messages, or half truths, the new prospect only gains a clearer understanding of the business when they have become actively involved, ie: system, purchasing products, meetings, seminars, 15 plans per month, sponsoring new people, tools trunk. By that time they have spent much more money, and time that is received in return (roi), that they work harder, because they are told, and learn to believe that is the only way they can become one of those 1% earners.
    I am not going to go into the virtues of Quixtar versus MV. To belabor my point of this post is that retention of IBO’s was and still is a huge problem. MV became a bigger build and replace business than Quixtar ever was, and to tell the new person at the bottom of either leg, that they can have this huge team under them in a month, without full disclosure of retention rates, among other pesky little facts, is only giving them part of the story, and in my experience false hope.

  54. Speak Your Truth permalink
    June 25, 2011 12:08 pm

    Dorothy~ I agree how amazing, thanks for sharing the real truth.

    Humiliated, thank you for your support and wisdom also.

    not signed up yet~ be prepared to be let down, they will never answer all your question, they need to play your ’emotions’ that is why they tell you the answers are at the next, seminar, major, your upline, they are skilled deceivers and deflectors, the other guy is a prime example of what their system teaches and how indocrtinated people become, they will say anything to try and distract from any point blank answer, WHY, because they know if people know the truth, they won’t get them sucked in they have to get you emotionally trapped.They can’t hide forever.

    After years and years around these manipulators and deceivers, I am hard pressed to believe that ‘the other guy’ is only a turbo 25, I have never seen a turbo 25 be so condecending and full of themselves. Although, he could have been a way bigger pin but we all know the facts on the recent attrition rates, and ALL those who quit before because of many unethical reasons, that they won’t speak of, so he very well could have lost most of his business. Just as a commentor said 98% of their business GONE. I think it would be fair to say that most lost 80 to 98% of their business. What’s the other guys recent attrition drop out rate? That is the worst atrocious attrition rate I personally have ever heard of. So, that may give you some insight of what to expect. If every year you only have 2% left of your prior years efforts of 5-6 nights of week, spending (conservatively) $500 per month on system and another $300 per month on juice (not including the inventory loading), this is what ‘real’ mis-leaders do then this would give you an idea of effort, time and money to basically start over year after year.Don’t care how postivitly smooth talking they are that is unstainable, period.

    not signed up yet~ The most important question you could get answered is, How can they vote you in or out to get paid? Maybe the other guy is an attorney and could answer your questions? Who knows since he refuses to tell what ‘job’ he got.In other words, you could do all that building and spend 10’s of thousands could bring them thousands of people then they could vote you out and too bad for you, you are done getting paid, but hey your upline will be happy they get a pay raise. Another way for them to ‘contol you’.This is what Orrin himself said they were going to a ‘voting by peers’ ‘like a law firm’, we never got to see that contract so don’t know if it is in there. I would love to see the contract, and who the hell in their right mind would ever sign up to that? YOU OWN YOUR OWN BUSINESS.right? They have control over everything including whether you get paid or not?
    Did they tell you this? Did they show you the ‘directors’ contract so you could take it to an attorney? Do they have a different contract for RT and different for PC? Why do they want you to be transparent when they aren’t? Just as webelived stated those who hide nothing, have nothing to hide.

  55. not signed up yet permalink
    June 25, 2011 12:42 pm

    I wont be let down. Its pretty simple…answer my questions, show me what I need to see and what I have asked for so I can take a look it and make up my mind. If TEAM cannot do that, and thats pretty clear already that they cant or wont, then I am not going so be on the TEAM.

    Other guy- I think you shot yourself in the foot. I was told by my sponsor and upline by other teambots and at opens that this was a wealth building and motivational business…and you have written a lenghty post about how it is a numbers business. So which one is it? I’ll answer it for you…you cant build the wealth without the numbers right

    OKay, forget my previous questions about P and L statements and all things I;ve asked though they are important.

    Answer this I dont care how many people are on your team, you are a director or turbo 25 or even power player.

    Show me evidence with some verification of just one person on your team you have helped actually make wealthy and I will back off. And I dont mean the 2,000-3,000 dollar a month level. Give me a name I havent heard of yet other than Dan Hawkins Orrin, Chris Tim and the same seven people we hear about all the time.

    Please understand I have no ill will to you…I am simply trying to find the truth and with TEAM that seems almost impossible. It not up to me to beleive what you say, but there is some burden on TEAM to prove and show verifiable results.

  56. Speak Your Truth permalink
    June 25, 2011 1:35 pm

    For us personally and other big leaders those pesky little facts are huge bolders when they steal that profit-sharing wealth after you have given your entire time, money, and brought thousands upon thousands on the team based on slander and lies. So, doesn’t matter how much they tell you you can make because they can steal it from you whenever they feel like it without any recourse. Well, at least not for now but anyone who knows the truth also knows that eventually you will pay the price for stealing,cheating, lying and deceiving.

  57. webelieved permalink
    June 25, 2011 8:09 pm

    Not Signed Up Yet- You have such good questions. I bet you will not get another name that actually is making a good profit besides the few you already listed and they all came into the business with huge groups. And Speak is right, who would build a advertised “residual business” knowing that Team and the Supreme misleader himself can and HAVE taken the pay and teams away from many more than just one leader, much bigger then turbo 25! After they spent years of their lives bringing people to the Team. After years of promises and lies it all was stolen with approval and encouragement from the pc and supreme leader Orrin himself! Amazing, he changed the deal after the work was done, but he and others are sure making a lot of money off the teams that others built, Teams that they had nothing to do with driving the miles and putting the time or money into, but they sure are taking the credit now. WHO IN THEIR RIGHT MIND WOULD WORK FOR A MAN WHO CALLS HIMSELF A CHRISTIAN AND REFUSES TO GIVE MANY BIG LEADERS COPIES OF THE CONTRACTS THEY SIGNED! Oh and also it is true that anyone, even people with less results, people that didn’t do the majority of the work, can vote the worker out of the money they earned, for any reason! Yes one more pesky little fact Other Guy wants you to ignore. It happened to BIG LEADERS, some of the people were in the Top 50 cd packs and on CDs ! Some were Orrin’s closest friends, supposedly! At any time you can now have your now so called customers/team stolen and given to others who didn’t work for it! Oh yeah if I were you I would run away fast! There is no protection for the little guy. They will screw you in a heart beat and then on top of it slander you with lies told to all your friends. Well, now I call them ex-friends. No contract or mention of Team profit sharing will be shared upon seeing the plan for the first time. I would guess you will not see a Team contract until you are trapped with close to a turbo 25 group, which could take a year or like The Other Guy- 6 years did he say? Wow, I would guess then you would sign a contract for directors stating you can have it taken away? (We were never told that) Wonder why we are taught not to bring up mv or the monthly expense of the Team? They will tell you it will blow out the new guy if you give it all to them at once! Ha- RED FLAG! Wonder why, could it be they don’t want you to see what your expenses will be all at once, or that they work much more then full time and don’t truly have any profit for years because it all goes back to the top of the team and in your gas tank, build and replace that is the name of the game? Or maybe they don’t want you to know the attrition rate even for the best builders is disturbing. Until of course you go to a seminar and catch the dream, or indoctrination of their system, then slowly you will become dependent on them, question your thinking, keep listening, reading and keep spending your money on Team tools and seminars. You can accept a little at a time. Mix in a bit of avoidence and deceptive practices like volume loading and you have a great lie. Not knowing that some apparently ban together and buy their level and recognition. They want you to keep believing and spending your money. Oh they will tell you that you’re making a difference in people’s lives and never tell you to look at the real facts like how much money people are spending believing the DREAM, or how many quit for legitimate reasons and are pissed at you for the money they lost. You will be kept so busy you won’t even know why they quit, and quitters are made fun of from stage. Anyone outside of Team is spoken about like they are ignorant, a loser, broke, lazy and doesn’t have a dream. This is a Us vs them indoctrination, like Team is the only way to be successful. What a joke!

  58. webelieved permalink
    June 25, 2011 8:26 pm

    I believe Team acts like a High Performance Cult, you are only useful when you are working for them. Indoctrination uses deceptive practices and information control to get you to think the way they want you to ie: spend your money and time building their team. Team uses scripture to manipulate people to do what they want. Read and learn scripture like Dorothy and you will see it. Also books do not indoctrinate, only the control of what books you read. Cd’s indoctrinate as well as mentoring and seminars/ group pressure…. because they want you to think just like them and do what they want you to do, and follow the unproven system, don’t read a book outside the system, don’t listen to music, watch movies, get a new book, recommend a non system book, don’t do anything unless your pc approves….. If you are not pc, you have no useful ideas, comments or information. You and your business will be destroyed if you do not conform. Scary huh? Percieved loyalty is everything on Team. Just like a cult. Everything is made to look nicey nicey…….. on the surface, but the God Bless……… is really shut the hell up, I am superior and you should feel guilty for speaking negative. But really they should feel guilty for not telling the truth and doing the right thing.Things are done with specific intent, intentionally just like Orrin says. The crooked line crap is ridiculous! Are you saying such Godly men do not know right from wrong? Wow even a first grader knows it’s wrong to lie and steal at the expense of others!

  59. webelieved permalink
    June 25, 2011 8:31 pm

    If anyone thinks Orrin had nothing to do with these shenanigans, think again!

  60. webelieved permalink
    June 25, 2011 8:41 pm

    Thanks Steve! I love it! Bring the facts upfront so people can make an informed decision!

  61. No Team For Me permalink
    June 25, 2011 9:17 pm

    Dorothy – When the switch was made from Quixtar to MV, many huge leaders were not in Orrin’s downline – Randy Haugen, Jerry Harteis, Billy Florence, Don Wilson, Chuck Goetschel, Claude Hamilton, Mark Crawford, John Sims, Bill Newton, Effie Reid, Roger Sitzler, Chris Mattis, and many more. Of the estimated 25,000 people who were at the big function Orrin had in Kentucky the year of the switch, I’d be surprised if anything over 1/3 were actually in Orrin’s original downline.

    Once the switch to MonaVie was made, everyone was placed in strategic positions which happened to reward those who were in Orrin’s original downline and who were the most loyal during the switch.

    All of the above leaders and their groups (who were not part of Orrin’s original downline) were sponsored into MonaVie in Orrin’s downline. Therefore all of the above leaders and their groups are now part of Orrin’s MonaVie business. and those who saw the light and left Team, found that many of their downline (while still downline in MonaVie) were solicited to stay with Team and therefore were transferred to other Team loyalists regarding the Team system income.

    One of the biggest current growing Team leaders is Chris & Danea Mattis under Roger Sitzler who were placed under Tim Marks as they were not in Orrin’s Quixtar downline. Claude & Lana Hamilton, PC members were actually downline from Randy Haugen. Bill & Jan Newton and Jim & Kathy Paullin were Diamonds in a crossline Dexter group in Quixtar, but are now in Tim Marks downline.

    When you look on the Team website, a good percentage of the groups from Canada, Pennsylvania, California, etc were not a part of Orrin’s downline in Quixtar.

    And, does anyone else notice that the writing style of “Other Guy” is erily similar to that of Orrin, ie. in depth quotes from books, language, style etc. Hmmmmm I can tell you for a fact that Orrin regularly reads Amthrax and fumes about it on a regular basis.

  62. Dorothy permalink
    June 25, 2011 8:32 pm

    This commenter requested that her comments be removed from this site.

  63. Dorothy permalink
    June 25, 2011 8:40 pm

    This commenter requested that her comments be removed from this site.

  64. Dorothy permalink
    June 25, 2011 8:53 pm

    This commenter requested that her comments be removed from this site.

  65. webelieved permalink
    June 25, 2011 10:08 pm

    Dorothy- This is what I have seen in other groups. After getting signed up in MV, Team profit sharing legs were taken from leaders that built their business in Quixtar/Amway for years. These legs/groups/numbers were given out by Policy Counsel to leaders that had nothing to do with those teams being built. Teams just taken from one leader and given away to another on the Team profit sharing side (in other words count for Round Table, turbo numbers, system counts, Team pay on tools etc)! These leaders who were promised a residual income from Team, had it taken on the TEAM side of things and given to someone else! I can tell you as a fact our group was given to a leader who counted it for extra profit and recognition in a crossline leg. I guess that’s one way to get a pay raise on the Team! The thing that bothers me most, is the deception that is going on, when people walk across stage at a new level they didn’t really earn.The poor new guy is being decieved into believing, in some cases, someone had some miraculous growth, when really they didn’t, they were given a team, sometimes years worth of someone elses work. What a shame! No one else gets special deals.

  66. Dorothy permalink
    June 25, 2011 9:10 pm

    This commenter requested that her comments be removed from this site.

  67. webelieved permalink
    June 25, 2011 10:30 pm

    Dorothy-” new” program team is launching! Yep, yep! George says “never been done in the world before now”
    LOL that has been said so many times before what a joke! Over hype the major, gotta get there. Question? Why does it seem you always have to pay for information? Shouldn’t some be free, if you really were about getting out good info?
    I would guess maybe they finally have the go ahead to tell the truth about their tool business and now can promote it as a business seperately from MV? Maybe they are under the gun to come clean because of the heat from Amthrax site? You know all 15 people that read it! LOL
    Will the Profit Sharing/ Directors Contract be released publically, how about the Team numbers? On a printed Team public note, for all to see? I am waiting with baited breathe. Maybe I should make some popcorn and get a soda pop…… I might die on the couch bloated and sick to my stomach waiting for that! It could be when Hell freezes over!
    Wow- I guess anyone can be a life coach on Team. I do not want to take advice from that person, but I am sure no one will know those facts. Jeez that is DISTURBING!
    Some with Team say they are leading people to the truth. More like leading them into a lie in my experience.

  68. Dorothy permalink
    June 25, 2011 10:38 pm

    This commenter requested that her comments be removed from this site.

  69. Dorothy permalink
    June 25, 2011 11:21 pm

    This commenter requested that her comments be removed from this site.

  70. switch permalink
    June 26, 2011 8:06 am

    Was it something I said or asked, other guy?

    Maybe I should go on to my next question?

  71. June 26, 2011 1:50 pm

    @No Team For Me: Excellent information about the LOS history of TEAM. Thanks for sharing that and the tidbit about Orrin reading this blog. Wonder why he would be fuming about it? 🙂

  72. Speak Your Truth permalink
    June 26, 2011 4:43 pm

    No Team For Me
    Thanks for sharing more of the truth. That is just a disgrace and can’t believe they have NO SHAME. And they say THEY aren’t in it for the MONEY? Most all the bigger leaders knew none of those people were in Orrin’s group but thanks for sharing the details. Not sure what Tim Marks, 17,000 hidden documents at the time of discovery were all about but would that prove some loyalty? What would you have to do to prove the loyality?

    This same kind of theft happened in our group only they stole, traded peoples personals, some lost their entire groups, and manipulated from the existing team, our upline must not needed those others in their outside teams. 😉 Your post is a true testament, to what I believe proves is the biggest pile of lies straight from hell. They have the audacity to tell people that they are a duplicatable, Free Enterprise, Based on Performance Business? And where might ALL those other people who are NOT growing and didn’t steal other leaders groups suppose to get their freebies, to rank themselves from? EARN IT? Whatever. How do they duplicate that con game, again? I am with you on the writing style, exact quotes and the books, but then they have all cloned themselves so well and if it is Orrin or one of the other PC, More lies? I hope he is not anywhere near a lightning storm soon. Christian, Godly, honest, humble servant? I think not, seriously you would think their conscience would crush them, that is what I believe they call the ‘pride before the fall’.

    With friends like that who needs enemies and am sure ALL those leaders and their groups you mentioned, given to the ‘loyalist’, have seen exactly how they were used and am clear why they would leave.

    Your comments pretty much shoot ALL of ‘the other guys’ ‘teaching’ of how to build the ‘performance based ‘business to hell, nothing more than something they expect others to do. Again another hole in the fence.

    Perhaps ‘the other guy’ got some of those leaders and teams too? Un-freaking-believable!
    I can’t believe ‘the other guy’ would have the audacity to make the statement:
    ” It is obvious that none of you are seeking after truth, but rather to defend position”. Really?

    Why would Orrin fume about the truth, I don’t understand I thought he was about ‘leading people to the truth’? Hmm…. What about HIS system being the fairest? WOW~ I would not want to be at the end of my life to answer for all of this.

    How would the other guy justify his explanation of “whoever gets in FIRST?” 🙂
    Thanks again for sharing, I can see why you picked the NO TEAM FOR ME. 🙂

  73. Speak Your Truth permalink
    June 26, 2011 4:46 pm

    And people thought Bernie Madoff pulled it off!

  74. Speak Your Truth permalink
    June 26, 2011 7:57 pm

    OOPS~ should say my upline must have needed those freebies for their outside legs to rank.
    Webleived~ your statement on the crooked line BS; got me thinking. I agree; would this be a way to PRETEND you didn’t know what you were doing when you stole people’s personals, took other leaders and their groups and profit-sharing income, lie about the passive residual income, and on and on. Would this be a poor attempt, or possibly a way to trick your conscience of the truth, while telling everyone else that EVERYONE is CROOKED that they just don’t know it yet until they see a straight line? 🙂

    What would they teach their children to do if they wronged people by stealing, cheating, lying, deceiving, and telling half truths/lies? Would they have a sit down talk about an ‘agreement on perspective’ and let me teach you how you can talk in circles without ever answering for what you have done or make excuses and cover-up? How would they teach their children to make amends for all that damage to others? Or what would they do if this all happened to them, people stole their personals, groups, profit-sharing, told them it was a performance based business, passive residual, bring the numbers to the system (just follow what we do and you will have what we have, bs) etc., what then, how would that be perceived? What if it was all reversed on them, what would they do? Hmm… 🙂
    Another thing you said would make sense in doing the right thing, would be to appologize, publicly answer questions publicly and admit to ALL the truth, and restitution for the wrongs. But we already know that would never happen~way too PRIDEFUL to do the right thing.

    Agreed on the indoctrination, it really is too bad they abuse the bible like Dorothy pointed out and the dangers of that, and also the real leaders and authors of the books.They take what little tid-bits;(and turn them into indoctrinating quotes; because it is to serve their agenda to get you to stop thinking and just repeat without question) and to make it ‘Appear’ they are leaders on the up and up. I wonder what the authors of these books would have to say about all the shenanigans that their ‘leadership’ teachings are being exploited; to tens of thousands of people? ‘The other guy’ must not have read Steve Hassan books or any of the other cult experts, there are many to choose from; or he would understand what indoctrination is and how it is used to get others to follow and conform, he must think he is smarter than all them?
    You would think he would have at least heard of Harold Camping, David Koresh, and Jim Jones and how they work, maybe not? 🙂

  75. Dorothy permalink
    June 26, 2011 7:08 pm

    This commenter requested that her comments be removed from this site.

  76. Speak Your Truth permalink
    June 26, 2011 8:11 pm

    Dorothy~ George says; “It’s never been done in the world, before now? Did he mean the WHOLE WORLD? Wow, must be something REALLY BIG!
    OH MY, what could that big, big, secret be or perhaps just another lie? 😦

    Maybe they will explain how they have operated all this time without the proper ‘legalities’? Orrin himself said he had to get this fixed? Now that would be a real secret, you are right we could attend that ‘leadership l.i.f.e. coaching training indoctrinating session’ except we have already donated way too much of our lives for the lie; time, money, effort, and teams to the fraudulant, illegitimate scam.
    So, if you or someone else you know goes, could you fill us in on the ‘secret’? LOL

    Sorry to hear about the deception of putting those people in underneath you, for that ‘fake belief and recognition’; shame on them, how low will they go? This has obviously happened to way too many people.

    I wonder who the puppeteer is also, the one calculating, manipulating, raking in most of the cash, who decides on who gets what? Hmm… I only know of one who controls it ALL! Great questions! One thing we can count on is; the truth ALWAYS comes out! 🙂

  77. No Team For Me permalink
    June 26, 2011 8:44 pm

    Dorothy – I’ve got a busy week lined up at work, but sometime in a week or so I’ll tell you the whole story of how I believe everyone came to be in Orrin’s downline in MV. For legal reasons I don’t want to claim my interpretation as fact. But I think most will agree that the play by play that I give is pretty darn accurate. I could definitely write a book on this one.

  78. Dorothy permalink
    June 26, 2011 9:04 pm

    This commenter requested that her comments be removed from this site.

  79. Speak Your Truth permalink
    June 26, 2011 10:48 pm

    No Team For Me
    Randy Haugen, started to tell some of the story at the fun-in-the-sun trip but cut himself off by saying he wishes he could tell the whole story. So, I am and am sure the rest will be interested in knowing the play by play.

  80. Burned Out With MV permalink
    June 27, 2011 3:57 am

    Kinda like I thought, still waiting for quantified answers to my questions.

    Only facts I ever really saw was on the MV IDS’s 2007 thru 2010 which all show 97% to 99% of all IBO’s not getting an ROI on personal use, this does not count biz expenses which can be rather significant to the uninformed new person believing all the hype.

    After 5 1/2 years since launch, plus factoring in the information on the various IDS’s from MV is curved by the parent company, guess I made my point.

  81. I Quit ( and glad I Did) permalink
    June 27, 2011 5:09 am

    Once again, some pinhead hawking the Team mantra shows up with the holier than thou attitude and consequently spends the rest of his time reeling backwards, fending off the blows of truth. Keep bringin’ ’em Owen, we’ll keep chewin’ ’em up and spittin’ back atcha!
    I’M PROUD TO STAND WITH ALL OF YOU! This is fun.

  82. Rob Thomas permalink
    June 27, 2011 5:56 am

    SYT… yeah, I’m Ron Halstrand (inserting “rolling eyes” emoticon here). C’mon – you can’t ask others for the real name and question why they are using aliases when you are doing the same thing.

    Wow! Lots of activity over the weekend on the board! Maybe I should check it more often?? Nah. I did, however, (finally) read Merchants of Deception (another 50 or so pages to go). Wow – what an intriguing (sp?) story! I couldn’t put it down all weekend. Eric did a great job in making me feel I was right along side him when all of this was going down. I could see the similarities/exactness in what I experienced and that lower levels. At one point, I took a nap and dreamt that I was going through the anxiety and panic attacks he went through about bringing loved ones into a scheme that bilks people out of there money. I think at one point I said something on this blog to the effect of, “people allow themselves to be brainwashed.” Well, after reading Eric’s account of what happened, I can say I was wrong and I apologize to anyone that I may have offended. I see now how easy it is to happen – downright scary! Even scarier was when I thought, “At least TEAM openly admits there is $$$ in the tool business that everyone has the opportunity to share in.” But, then, I remembered “we beleived” story about having LOS’s moved out from under him/her (maye I read the posts too quickly, but I don’t think I know we believed’s gender). I used to think that MLM’s can be a good vehicle given the right product and right training – but in the end, if there aren’t any safe gaurds in the system to truely protect people’s hard work, its all BS.

    And webelieved, I think I would love your book. There were times that I wanted to build the business large enough to get in on the inside and see what was really going on. Obviuosly I never did (and that’s a good thing) so reading your accounts of the the behind the scenes story would be the next best thing. Maybe you could call it “There is No I in TEAM (but there is a ME!)”

  83. Speak Your Truth permalink
    June 27, 2011 9:20 am

    Rob Thomas~I thought at first you were joking when you asked my name, for obvious reasons but maybe apparently your were not. If I have offended you by not giving my name, I am sorry. But for obvious reasons as so many on here have mentioned I will not. If you go back and read the post, you would understand, the reason I asked ‘the other guy’, for his name is because here is what he said:

    “Also, Is there a reason you can’t release your names and what you represent? If what you are doing is so ‘righteous’ and ‘good,’ then why stand behind your convictions with your name?”
    Hope that clears it up, because he is the one that asked when he came with an alias and again Orrin also bashes those who are anonomous. I know why people don’t use their names.
    Glad you are reading the Merchant of Deception, it was an eye opener and could see what they were doing to us also.

  84. webelieved permalink
    June 27, 2011 9:29 am

    Rob-
    Thanks for your comments. I am glad you are reading Merchants of Deception- very eye opening it was for me! I accept your apoligies. I didn’t understand what had happened to me, until I read that book and Combatting Cult Mind Control. I have to say I cried buckets of tears when I read those books! 😦
    Very sad to realize I was used and used others believing what I now believe were lies.
    Just my perception.
    And you are right, there is no protection for the distributor to keep their so called “residual Income” on Team and I have not seen it in any mlm either.
    I am confused didn’t you ask SYT their name? We sure know why people bringing out their truth cannot give their names. It appears anyone that comes out publically, for instance Scott Larsen, I am guessing the author of MOD as well, are attacked financially with frivolous lawsuits or harassment by rich people and large companies that may have something to hide?. Obviously we have no ulterior motive, or financial gain from telling the truth of our experiences and perceptions while inolved with Team but we have much to lose. It seems in some instances, people are sued into financial devastation at times.
    P.s. Thanks for the name for the book, I like it 🙂

  85. Speak Your Truth permalink
    June 27, 2011 9:44 am

    IQ~LOL Thanks for the laugh. Same here, thanks for your support. I too wouldn’t be here if it wasn’t for caring about others being screwed over. We could all chose to walk away and never do anything but as for me it is a matter of the heart, regardless of the berating and name calling and condesending comments others like to do towards those who tell the truth.Besides us telling those we are sorry to all we could, this is another way for those cross-line or otherwise that we are sorry for participating and if some of those chose not to believe us then, there is nothing else to say. I can understand that people would be pissed if we continued but we did not and when we found out that they hurt people for their personal gain, then the lights came on and we stood for our leaders and teams to the corruption.

    Burned Out With MV~ Don’t think the straight answers will ever come, even when leaders would question while on the team, you were treading thin ice if you did and and they would give a quick jab to answer to make it clear that you don’t question anything, depending on which upline. Others would explain somethings so you would see their side and expected you to accept it.
    But we all know the truth on the handling objectiosn (stop thinking techniques) that became second nature to anyone who would question, especially the new prospects.

  86. webelieved permalink
    June 27, 2011 9:55 am

    No Team for ME- Thanks for the info! I missed your post! HOLY TOLEDO!
    That was very informative. What I had suspected all along although I had no idea the vastness of it all. That is a lot of people, volume and money! Orrin got a great pay raise for sure!
    Loyalty and percieved arsss kissing paid for some it seemed. While it seems others who followed biblical principles were starved financially in profit sharing! Their percieved unloyalty may have really been a delusion thought up by their paranoid upline PC? Oh my do the liars, hiders, decievers make me mad! Wow who decides how loyal you are?
    I am glad I got no special deals to feel guilty about. They probably knew I would tell the truth if I did. They are discusting and Orrin bragging about his level in MV is sick, as if he did it all! I will tell you in 2007/2008 Orrin publically in front of thousands said, he hadn’t shown a plan for four years!
    I guess “They got lot splainin to do!” Those people you mentioned, Billy, Effie and others built Amway for what 30 years? Had to be some big groups given away! I know one person who was in Billy’s group said PC solicited people out of her team to stay with Team instead of going with Billy and her to another training company in MV. Team Leaders were crosslining with people not in their downline? Wonder if people who got the teams all knew it was going to happen ahead of time ? It seems it was all planned out, no? It is discusting the lack of disclosure on Team. A new guy has no idea these things happened and the levels he is seeing may just really be a deceptive illusion !
    No Team for me- Keep posting, what else you got? 🙂

  87. webelieved permalink
    June 27, 2011 10:06 am

    NO TEAM FOR ME- Please come back soon! Cannot wait to hear what your perception is. all of my info is perception or experience too!
    I find it funny THE OTHER GUY uses the same language as O. It could be him, I do not care, all I want are the Team books opened and the contracts, all of them made public!
    Keep bringing the truth!
    I Quit- I am proud to stand up for the truth with you and all the others! Guess you could say we are building a community that is making a difference in people’s lives! If just one person doesn’t have to experience what we and others did I will be grateful. 🙂

  88. webelieved permalink
    June 27, 2011 10:11 am

    So what you are saying is there are leaders that got special deals, extra people and volume in their Mv leg from teams they did not build?
    Do they disclose that when they are talking about themselves?
    It is a fact some leaders got system counts and tickets given to them, teams that are not in their MV group, teams they didn’t build, to be used for profit sharing money, and team recognition like turbo, Round Table etc.

  89. Speak Your Truth permalink
    June 27, 2011 10:27 am

    Webelieved~ I am with you and am glad we didn’t get any special deals either. How could you build a business telling others you get paid by your performance when you know you were given other peoples work for years, just because you were a good arsse kisser and did every flippin thing they asked you to do unethical, immoral, or illegal. What a bunch of lies and deception. I seriously cannot understand how they live with themselves, call themselves Christian knowing they are pressuring others to do the work when they didn’t.They are mis-leading people astray,how dangerous, sad and corrupt.

    No Team For Me~ don’t keep us waiting too long! I wonder what teams our upline PC got, they must have put them above us or in cross-line in MV except I know of a couple that got someone else’s group to count on the team system profit-sharing.This would explain to everyone that Orrin’s Presidential rank was really not his work at all. Honestly Orrin never built our group anyway and neither did our PC obviously they are arrogant and claim they did the work for it all.

    Did all these leaders know what he was strategically planning and did they agree to have their teams manipulated and stolen, by taking for himself and giving other PCs everyone else’s group?That must have been the hidden message that was said by a PC in public before we got in MV they said who ever shows they are building now, it will be well worth it for them (paraphrased but it was a hint you could sense almost a promise, to the builders). There were many hidden messages during the lawsuits and leaving Q/A that they would leave to the leaders to figure out what they were saying and those who knew them well enough, knew what they were really saying. It is despicable how deceiving they are. Hope you can answer some of our questions.

  90. switch permalink
    June 27, 2011 11:42 am

    SYT says-
    “Webelieved~ I am with you and am glad we didn’t get any special deals either. How could you build a business telling others you get paid by your performance when you know you were given other peoples work for years, just because you were a good arsse kisser and did every flippin thing they asked you to do unethical, immoral, or illegal. What a bunch of lies and deception. I seriously cannot understand how they live with themselves, call themselves Christian knowing they are pressuring others to do the work when they didn’t.They are mis-leading people astray,how dangerous, sad and corrupt.”

    BINGO!

  91. webelieved permalink
    June 27, 2011 7:34 pm

    Speak- now that you mentioned that I could swear there was some mention like it will be well worth it, if you built big the 6 months before we got in Mv. I wonder how many favorite leaders knew they were going to inherit a group? I am guessing it was promoted by PC in what they called the inner circle ?
    Funny- build a business that according to the Team office memo wasn’t a business opportunity!
    No Team for me- Thanks for speaking up. I hope more people come here and share their info. There are so many things that would seem off and yet one couldn’t pin point it. It helps to hear others perspectives.

  92. Dorothy permalink
    June 27, 2011 7:06 pm

    This commenter requested that her comments be removed from this site.

  93. Rob Thomas permalink
    June 28, 2011 6:47 am

    SYT – no issues with me. 🙂

    After finishing MofD, I got to thinking… is it possible to have the best of intentions when “brainwashing” someone? I know that sounds crazy since through the very act of brainwashing you are taking away someone’s ability to think freely. But to a certain degree, isn’t that what we do to our kids, brainwash them to be the best they can be, to be confident, upstanding members of society? Isn’t any information that we are “plugged in” to for a period of time a form of brainwashing? Doesn’t it come down to how that “power” is used?

  94. June 28, 2011 5:37 pm

    Our kids are not paying us $6000/year for the privilege to brainwash them.

    Here’s the problem. MLM Training Organizations are selling people on a “system” that has proven to be an utter failure. The main point of these systems is to help one build a big business. Well, for 99% of those involved, that’s not going to happen. To the “leaders” in the organization, it really doesn’t matter if people become successful or not. Their job is to continue to sell the system over and over and over again. Sustaining hope is more important than achieving results.

  95. Speak Your Truth permalink
    June 28, 2011 7:52 pm

    Rob~’
    Amthrax made some great points. I am not an expert, but there are many you can learn from. I would recommend you read up on ‘thought reform/ mind control/brainwashing,’ from Robert J. Lifton and his book “Thought Reform and the Psychology of Totalism.”. Margaret Singer, wrote “Cults in Our Midst” with Janja Lalich. Steve Hassan, wrote 2 books, Rick Ross are other great resources with books and websites. I will add the website link (Rick Ross) to give you a look at the 8 sets of critiera from Dr. Lifton’s Book and know you will find your answers; which you will see you probably aren’t brainwashing your children.
    I can say, personally, with confidence no, we don’t brainwash our children. There is a big difference from guiding and allowing others to think on their own and controling others.
    As you said it would be taking away someones ability to critical think or control the way they think.
    I don’t think,(well there are some crazy control freaks) you could find many cases if any where their children are brainwashed by their parents other than the obvious of those who are involved in cults because of their parents.

    I would recommend you read the books and websites from the experts who have studied these for years, if you are serious about understanding and finding the answers.
    Here is the website: http://www.rickross.com/reference/brainwashing/brainwashing19.html
    Happy reading. 🙂

  96. Speak Your Truth permalink
    June 29, 2011 1:10 am

    On that same Rick Ross website there is a video called the “WAVE”, very interesting watch.

  97. Speak Your Truth permalink
    June 29, 2011 1:26 am

    Cults: “The Wave”: 1981 – Based on the real experience of a high school class in Palo Alto, CA in April 1967, whose teacher wanted to explain the rise of the Nazi party to his students.
    AMAZING, what a lesson for ALL, it is 45 minutes but watch all the way til end!

    I couldn’t get the video link on here but you can go to it from the link in the above post.
    WELL worth the watch!

  98. humiliated permalink
    June 29, 2011 7:00 am

    Rob, I think it is hard to wrap your head around why people would behave in this manner and I had the same difficulty at first. When I first got out of MV, I struggled with this issue because the people that got me involved did not appear to be greedy, mind control freaks and I believe to some extent THEY initially had good intentions because they were ignorant to the web of lies MV Corporate was spinning. As time went on, I saw them becoming more indoctrinated and less tolerant of other view points when it came to MonaVie. It took me some time to really digest this and accept that this was their behavior. There were some red flags for me so I never became fully invested (the connection to Amway, the fact that I am an atheist). The behavior/peronalities of these people had changed since I first knew them and these are adults. Never mind that I watched their children turn into Stepford children in front of my very eyes as well. They were literally different people. THAT is brainwashing.

    It took me a while to figure out the difference between brainwashing and influencing. The brainwashing that MV (at the Brig Hart and Diamond level) is pre-meditated, they have researched the methods and are routinely applying them to the unsuspecting masses. That is why they have brought religion into the “business”, they know that this is a very powerful means of creating milsplaced loyalty. They have taken INTENTIONALLY taken brainwashing techniques and blended them with marketing strategies & religious doctrine and that is the molotov cocktail recipe for a cult.

    But, you bring up a very good point, what about intentions? Do you raise your children with the hopes that if you bring them up right, YOU will benefit in spades financially? I rather doubt it, you likely just want them to do what they love and to be happy, to respect themselves and others. Do you really think that the Orrin’s, Brig’s and Dallin’s of the world give two shits if people are truly happy and fulfilled (although they pay lip service to this)? I Do you think that they would be like Mother Theresa and do this all for free? That is also what makes this all pure evil, they only care about padding their (and those close to them) bank accounts and don’t give two thoughts to the collateral damage they do. They are a blight on society unlike loving, well intentioned parents.

  99. webelieved permalink
    June 29, 2011 7:42 am

    Humiliated- Couldn’t said it better myself. My kids are not going broke paying my bills, and I am not decieving them to keep them spending their money. I do not force them to be who I want. In my experience the higher up you get in the ranks the more you are forced to conform on Team. If you are new or have no influence in front of large amounts of people on Team you may not recognize it. My experience is If you do not do what they say and you are a big leader, they will discredit you, wreck your life financially, steal your business and wreck friendships you built for years. That is a huge sign of a cult. Hierarchy. People to answer to. No freedom of thought or opinion. One other sign is Character assasination, when you question anything. Instead of a debating the issue, and answers to your questions your character will be assasinated and we get the runaround on answers. It is funny every time someone comes on here that is what they do, using parroted quotes etc. to try to attack our character. When has anyone shown us some facts like Team documents, contracts? Never…….
    What are they hiding?

  100. webelieved permalink
    June 29, 2011 8:17 am

    I know one couple, where their PC/upline were telling their downline not to come to meetings they were having! This couple built the business huge, they were on cd, and you would know them. Their upline had nothing to do with building their Team, in fact I would venture to say their upline doesn’t have one personal below them ! In fact their hard work made their upline rich and famous (puke) on Team! This upline maybe, came in once every few months to do a large meeting and that was it, otherwise spent all his time at home or building his other legs. Later this same upline stole their Team and money from them, the person who actually spent years doing the work, away from their family!
    Behind their backs these so called great Leaders were working against them, and in front of their faces pretended to mentor and care for them!
    These people are discusting to me, they do not follow what they stand on stage and preach! IT IS ONE BIG GAME OF MANIPULATION!
    Orrin knows this couple did the work and has done NOTHING to fix the situation! The leaders/ camping managers that stay will go on their merry way, make lots of money, get special deals and pretend the people that really built their business didn’t exist. Meanwhile this family and others that DID THE WORK are starving financially and starting over at ground ZERO after believing this lie of TEAM, making a difference, and residual income blah blah blah.
    I hope the misleaders’ houses, boats, vacations, money, pride, arrogance are worth it in the end. Shame on them!

  101. I Quit ( and glad I Did) permalink
    June 29, 2011 8:23 am

    Team good. Ex-Team bad. Owen nice guy. Him love you.
    Polly want a cracker?!

  102. webelieved permalink
    June 29, 2011 8:32 am

    Also- NO NEGATIVE! that is the name of the game. The TEAM enviroment should always be positive…. fake. Life has negative, your dog dies, your parents die, people get sick, people lose jobs. Life is not always positive, but we should fake it at least in public on TEAM! That is another manipulation they use. It is all PRETEND.
    I know leaders that were having problems in their life that pretended in public and their downline it was all good. That is lying and deception!
    We learned to ignore the facts of our business, like how many people quit, or didn’t make it, and ignore things and people on in our life that were not involved with TEAM. Frankly, going power player you do not have time for a life. Someday it would be better when we made it on the TEAM. We were taught to be great pretenders, and lie and decieve even ourselves. So Sad. Meanwhile living in the FAIRY TALE we lost so much time with people that really did love us like our families and kids. TIME WE WILL NEVER GET BACK. 😦

  103. Rob Thomas permalink
    June 29, 2011 10:01 am

    Obiviously, brainwashing with the intent to bilk people out of money is just plain wrong. There’s is abovusltely no argument from me on that point, and I highly doubt anyone would argue that point.

  104. June 29, 2011 11:34 am

    @ Webelieved: Your story reminds me of the grumbling that went on. Some of my cross line friends used to tell me “stories” about their up line, very similar to your story. I think it was about the Bloomdahls. Of course we were cross line and it was taboo to talk business. OOPS! Some of us still did. Actually, some still do. 🙂

    Can you even imagine if people just started talking to each other, what truth would be revealed within the ranks? WOW! it would be huge!!

  105. Dorothy permalink
    June 29, 2011 11:53 am

    part one and part two of The Wave video

  106. Speak Your Truth permalink
    June 29, 2011 1:14 pm

    D~ We all knew it was ‘taboo’ didn’t we. That kind of ‘control’ over who you can talk to is very cultish, as a matter of fact that is one of the criteria of a cult, and am not aware of Any business anywhere on the planet that tells people who they can or cannot talk too, do you? Especially when everyone is in it for the same reasons, ‘profit’ and ’cause’,and we know NO NEGATIVE right, suppose to be 1 team under 1 leadership with a duplicatible, proven system? Any free thinker knows this is a RED FlAG that there is something being hidden, then that would be a huge! I agree it seems real odd that the ‘stories’ are so familiar, really doesn’t matter who it happens to be, just seems if you heard 1 you have heard them all, especially if you do know the big leaders that are cross-line. Just seems so blantanly obvious. Sad all the Dickies, Quads, Triples, Turbos, and all the rest have left for it seems a lot of the same reasons.
    This definitely does not make sense in the real world, does it?

    What would your ‘story’ be? 🙂

    Your last sentence, can you explain what you mean by if everyone would just start talking, what truth would be revealed? Have you personally talked to all those leaders to find out the truth?

    Dorothy~ Thanks for adding the links.

  107. I Quit ( and glad I Did) permalink
    June 29, 2011 1:23 pm

    If all of us would have communicated back then, we would have saved ourselves gobs of money and had MUCH MORE meaningful time in our lives. SOONER!

  108. Speak Your Truth permalink
    June 29, 2011 2:50 pm

    IQ ~ I Agree! Just can’t get back the time, but am so GRATEFUL to have it NOW!
    Whoo, what an illusion! 🙂

  109. switch permalink
    June 29, 2011 6:56 pm

    Unbelievable on the “Wave” video!

    “strength through community”……WOW!

    Great find, Speak!

  110. Speak Your Truth permalink
    June 29, 2011 7:19 pm

    Switch~ Pretty scary eh! So, I was trying to think back, I bet that is pretty close, (the 2 week time frame it took to get them to completely comply) would be about right for some. I remember being excited seeing others clean shaving, wearing a suit after the 2 or 3 rd open. How shameful, and sad to say that now, means they were starting to ‘conform’ and lose their sense of self right off the bat, because the the cult jargon followed, then the lack of thinking on their own……TOO SAD to know we helped in others losing their critical thinking. 😦

  111. Speak Your Truth permalink
    June 29, 2011 7:23 pm

    Good news is now we are reversing that! 🙂

  112. switch permalink
    June 29, 2011 8:29 pm

    You got that right, Speak!

    Don’t be so hard on yourself….keep your head up. YOU definitely know what’s true and so do I. Same goes for you too, webelieved….keep your head up and take that time you do have NOW, and use every single minute you can.

    But damn, nothing like delivering a dagger with “The Wave”!!!

  113. Speak Your Truth permalink
    June 29, 2011 10:07 pm

    Thanks Switch and all the rest for such great support and laughs, wouldn’t know where I’d be without you all, and you too Amthrax! 🙂 🙂

  114. webelieved permalink
    June 29, 2011 10:27 pm

    Speak- Strength through Community! You got to be kidding! Wow- Seems very familiar- SCARY Speak -really scary! Everyone should watch this video!
    “Conform to the group. Monitored and reporting in, holy crud! That happens on the team, people report back in on you if they think you are not following the system the way they think you should.
    Allegiance to each other. Obey the rules . Actively recruit new members.” For the first time I feel like I am part of something great, like being born again”. “Everyone is on the same team. Ditching people if they aren’t part of the wave”. “I’m part of something special”. Repeat info and follow.
    Student asked to not report negatively on Wave. She said, “No one’s thinking for themselves anymore. Everyone’s going along with it like a flock of sheep”. Critic is a threat and must be stopped.
    “So a few people are getting hurt along the way, but it’s for the good of the whole, why can’t you see that, it’s a new system”…. Stop writing negative articles.
    “No room to be yourself and say what you really believe. Kids are spying on eachother. Can’t carry on a conversation without worrying about who is listening to you”.
    Rally for wave members only. “Show the rest of the nation how to acheive a better society through discipline, action and pride”.” If we can change things here we can change them everywhere.”
    “Can any of you think for yourselves anymore?”
    “Everybody wear blue shirts”.” No one but loyal wave members allowed in”.
    Door gaurds!
    “You thought you were so special , better than everyone outside the group. You traded your freedom for the luxury of feeling superior. You accepted the groups will over your own conviction, no matter who you hurt. You thought you could go along for the ride and walk away at any moment. Where were you heading? You would have all made good _____ . You would have allowed your friends and neighbors be destroyed. How could the people do nothing? How can people deny their own history?”
    Lesson-“We are responsible for our actions. Question what you’re doing and keep your free will rather than blindly follow a leader”.
    Quotes,paraphrases and observations from the movie The Wave

  115. webelieved permalink
    June 29, 2011 10:38 pm

    Thanks Switch! I am living intentionally for excellence now that I am out of the Team! haha! Time is so valuable, I am glad to learn the hard lesson now! That movie is a BIG DAGGAR! Speak is on fire!

  116. webelieved permalink
    June 29, 2011 11:28 pm

    D-Can you even imagine if people just started talking to each other, what truth would be revealed within the ranks? WOW! it would be huge!!

    Missed your post, I can say I couldn’t agree with you more, If more would talk it would be amazing! That’s one of the biggest problems on Team, control of information. I would love to see more truth come out and people talk to each other like in the real world. So what’s your story? 🙂

  117. Speak Your Truth permalink
    June 29, 2011 11:32 pm

    webelieved-

    “You thought you were so special , better than everyone outside the group. You traded your freedom for the luxury of feeling superior. You accepted the groups will over your own conviction, no matter who you hurt. You thought you could go along for the ride and walk away at any moment. Where were you heading? You would have all made good _____ . You would have allowed your friends and neighbors be destroyed. How could the people do nothing? How can people deny their own history?”
    Lesson-”We are responsible for our actions. Question what you’re doing and keep your free will rather than blindly follow a leader.

    Daggers, OH Boy, that paragraph says at all!

  118. switch permalink
    June 30, 2011 7:28 am

    Not a problem.

    What I find pretty cool is watching that trust you once had, slowly coming back to everyone and taking NO $hit from anyone.

    What a powerful show, it truly is.

  119. free at last permalink
    August 4, 2011 6:42 am

    Here’s the problem I have with them. They are quick to pat themselves on the back for all the people they have helped. Yet, they take no responsibility for the people they have hurt with their bad advice. They call themselves mentors, what qualifications do they have? They will give you the best advice that will line their own pockets.

  120. TOD permalink
    August 4, 2011 7:14 am

    amen free at last. great point.

  121. switch permalink
    August 4, 2011 9:54 am

    Yep, great point, free at last. That’s a great question on the qualifications they don’t have AND NEVER WILL! The only qualification they have is the ability to rob people of their money.

    The dirty little secrets never end do they?

  122. MWRascal permalink
    August 18, 2011 1:49 pm

    Wow… if you people spend this amount of energy talking about Orrin did this, Chris did that, this other guy in TEAM did this, they did that, I can’t believe they do this. I wonder what you might accomplish if you applied the same energy to a positive setting.

    So all of you were in this and that, TEAM or whatever, and you all quit and pick names that are sooooo…. inspiring to everyone to post these worthless comments. If you are looking for attention, buy a pet.

    Oh and if you are truly looking for a scam. Watch the news about how much $$ your government is taking from you as they print more and more dollars….

    I love it…. more and more “special” posts.

  123. Used to be "all-in" permalink
    August 23, 2011 12:06 pm

    Hi everyone, this is my first time posting on this site and just want to say that I can appreciate what you’re doing to get the word out there about what’s really going on inside the TEAM, things that most uplines would rather you not ask about or definitely not research. I used to hate this website because of what I was told to believe about you, but it wasn’t until I actually started to read your posts that I realized that you might actually be more than negative, zero accomplishment critics. I’ve since done my own research and left the TEAM a while ago once I learned of the PC’s dirty little secrets.

    One question that has been nagging me, however, is understanding what proof there may be that people were given outside groups that they did not build, but now get paid for. I understand that there may be different sets of circumstances that apply to the MV side of the business, as opposed to the TEAM profit sharing side. I know that the “Big Three” all added outside groups when we joined up with MV…did anyone else receive similar benefits? From the TEAM side, are there specifics that anyone would be willing to share about who has been on the receiving end of stolen teams that are not disclosed on stage? I know some of you have mentioned the Hawkins may fall in this second class…I.e. They may not have actually built six organic team 100 legs.

    Any specific evidence to help me understand these two situations would be appreciated! Thanks!

  124. August 23, 2011 12:24 pm

    @Used to be all in – welcome to the discussion and the “other” side. The other Ex-TEAM members will be able to answer your questions. You may also want to look at this post which talks about Hawkins ascension to the policy council.

    Was there a post or comment in particular which prompted you to question what you were being told by your uplines?

  125. Speak Your Truth permalink
    August 23, 2011 2:22 pm

    Used to be “all-in”~

    Welcome to the site. 🙂

    The ‘proof’ you are looking for will probably won’t be shown on this website, at least not or probably only in a court of law would that happen and then it could be ‘proof’ and public knowledge.

    I would read through the post as Amthrax recommended, use your own common sense, critical thinking, and experience, to decide.

    Did your team receive any outside groups in your team?

  126. Speak Your Truth permalink
    August 23, 2011 2:24 pm

    Should say at least not until or if someone decided they would sue for the facts to come out.

  127. Used to be "all-in" permalink
    August 23, 2011 2:48 pm

    Hi Amthrax, thanks for the link – Somehow I missed that post.

    Probably the first thing that made me start questioning things was when I no longer saw Pastor Dickie, Don Freeze and Matt Abraham at the Sunday morning service for the Team. Then I noticed many other leaders who were gone and asked myself the question, if freedom on the TEAM is as good as they say it is, then why are these leaders leaving? I started asking questions to my upline and quickly realized that these honest questions were not being welcomed, or the implications were being ignored. In my search for truth I looked back and realized that many of the responses to these questions from my upline were only half truths that only initially sounded good. I began to question everything they were telling me because I couldn’t tell what was true and what wasn’t. I should say that my upline was one of the biggest leaders on TEAM, who everyone would know.

    I never seemed to be able to nail them down on a number of questions – that would be cross lining – but one thing I had heard was that only Orrin, Chris and Tim had been given outside groups when joining MV. My experience made me question if this was the full truth. Then later I read on here that some were claiming that the Hawkins and maybe others were given teams for profit sharing purposes and it was just one more point that I wondered if I had been given the full truth. One thing I can say for sure though is that never once in our conversations was it ever implied or hinted that certain leaders being recognized on stage might not have done all the work the TEAM claims they’ve done. To me, if true, that would be a pure lie of omission and false promotion.

  128. Speak Your Truth permalink
    August 23, 2011 8:45 pm

    Used to be “all in”

    I understand your concerns and you are seeing that there is some serious issues that have caused you to ask these questions. It can be very frustrating to never get a straight answer, and only causes doubt in others, the very thing they try to prevent. What did they tell you why all the leaders left?

    In my opinion, those who have nothing to hide; hide nothing.

    I do have another question for you; Do you not report your numbers in your group on system through the EBC?

  129. webelieved permalink
    August 23, 2011 8:49 pm

    Used to be all in- Welcome!
    I was all in too until I saw unethical and downright corrupt behavior. I am glad you are using your critical thinking skills. Just wanted to ask were you in profit sharing?

  130. Used to be "all-in" permalink
    August 24, 2011 4:02 am

    Hi Speak Your Truth and webelieved – Good to hear from you!

    I was not yet a director when I left, so didn’t have access to all the director reports on the EBC. This made it even more difficult to get real answers, because I think my upline discounted the fact that I had a brain and wasn’t just going to take their word for it. What my upline said always seemed to make sense on the surface, but whenever I dug for the truth, many times I realized I hadn’t been told the full truth.

    When I asked about some of the big leaders leaving, my upline implied that it was simply a matter of these guys losing much of their groups during the switch to MV and subsequently losing their dreams and weren’t willing to keep paying the price with the rest of us. There was a lot of character bashing as well.

  131. Rob Thomas permalink
    August 24, 2011 5:34 am

    This probably isn’t the right string to ask this question, but I’ll ask anyway 🙂
    Anyone know if Joe Darkangelo is still around? I remember he went PC during the LDSP period between Quixtar and MV. I also remember it being kind of weird – he was being praised for going out and selling leadership to companies and he shot through to PC VERY quickly; soon after, there was talk about creating different tiers in PC so that those that sold leadership by signing up companies (thus moving very fast) would not be “real PC” but rather a lower tiered PC.

    Anyone else remember any of this? Is Joe still recgnized as PC?

  132. Speak Your Truth permalink
    August 24, 2011 10:46 am

    Used to be ‘all in’~

    You have experienced the same thing we all have and we know that they avoid questions, tell half-truths that ‘seem’ very convincing, they basically will tell you anything to get you to stop asking.

    The reason I asked if you about your group numbers and the EBC, is because you wanted to know how anyone may have ‘proof’ on how others got given teams.

    Profit-sharers would have to report their numbers on system & tickets weekly, the EBC tracked this, and you would have to go in and collect the data from that and report to get paid. You would see EVERYONE that was on or off system in your line of sponsorship.

    So, lets say Hypothetically, you had someone 25 levels in depth of profit-shares and the 25th profit sharer was given one of Billy Florences legs, then all 24 of those ‘upline profit-shares’ would not only see the names of Billy Florences group but had to report those numbers, because they were in your group now, therefore you would also see all the ticket counts and systems of those people.

    Does that make sense now how others could have proof if someone was ‘given’ someone else’s group?

    Rob~ The last I knew Darkangelo was still in, and is far as I know he was never a PC after that.

  133. Rob Thomas permalink
    August 24, 2011 1:54 pm

    So they recognized him as PC for one leadership convention, no doubt to get everyone’s belief up that this thing still worked even as an LDSP, then pushed him back to round table? Don’t people question that??

  134. Used to be "all-in" permalink
    August 24, 2011 2:37 pm

    Speak Your Truth – Thanks for the detailed explanation, that helps make it very clear from the TEAM profit sharing side. Not to beat a dead horse, but what about the Mona Vie side of the business? Does anyone know if anyone had outside groups added to their PET’s besides the big three? This is where I’m guessing another “half-truth” was given to me (but would be curious if this was a lie too)…I was told that only those three were given outside groups because of all their work in “developing the system”, which they had done for “free”. The implication was that this was the last word on recognition, etc. No one was being recognized on stage for work they didn’t do. Never once was there anything implied about this being different from a TEAM profit sharing side, as you described.

  135. Used to be "all-in" permalink
    August 24, 2011 2:45 pm

    Rob Thomas – I assumed that Joe and Jim Martin (who I also believe went PC at one point) lost a lot of their business through attrition (as we all did). I always believed that the PC level was purely achievement based, as were the other levels (or so I thought), and this is why they were no longer being recognized at the PC level. Since I still saw them around, I never questioned it.

  136. webelieved permalink
    August 24, 2011 3:26 pm

    It seems from comments here, Orrin and some in his downline, registered Billy’s , Randy’s and many others’ groups in MV? It seems Orrin is at the top of the pyramid. I laugh when you say they developed the system for free! What a joke.
    I remember a couple that was getting acalades about being close to a certain large ticket level on the Team side, that they were no where near. Later I found, through a bit of research and confirmation from someone, they had been given a large team (in profit sharing) built by another BIG crossline leader. It seems that they were probably using it for recognition. There would be no other explaination, unless they were lying about their levels? You would definitly know them.
    I remember I was shocked this was going on, because they were not even close!
    This would be blatant deception to the masses if they were taking Team, turbo, recognition for groups someone else built. I also know, for sure another profit sharing group that was stolen from a leader, and was given to another leader. He counted it in his lesser leg. He was already gettin paid for this same group in his other leg. Apparently he needed a bigger lesser leg in profit sharing? Bet they never told you that from stage! So many deceptions, I am starting to wonder if there is anything that was not a lie, or manipulation.

    These are all my opinions and experiences with Team.

  137. webelieved permalink
    August 24, 2011 3:38 pm

    “When I asked about some of the big leaders leaving, my upline implied that it was simply a matter of these guys losing much of their groups during the switch to MV and subsequently losing their dreams and weren’t willing to keep paying the price with the rest of us. There was a lot of character bashing as well.”-Used to be All In

    Wow this doesn’t suprise me, as their excuse. It wouldn’ t be that we recognized their corrupt, unchristian behavior and didn’t want to mislead any more people.
    Almost our whole team followed into MV as I would guess most leaders teams did. What lies they tell! Sad they just parrot whatever their upline says.. They cannot think on their own.
    Bashing is right, PC has to attack our character and work ethic to cover their lies.

    [Editor’s note: blockquote added for readability]

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