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LIFE Pre-Launch Hyperbole

July 19, 2011

Take the 8F's out of TEAM LIFE and all you get is a LIE.

Back in April, I wrote how TEAM1 positions every Major Function as the most important thing you can do. George Guzzardo was heavy on the hyperbole then, but he’s turned the dial to eleven with his promotion of the upcoming Leadership conventions in Ohio and Fresno:

Do not miss this! If you thought that ‘Apple’ or “Face Book’ has made an impact, you haven’t seen anything yet. Research has pointed to leadership time and time again as the answer to an ailing economy, family values, health, and the overall quality of life. Finally, after over a decade of preparation the state of the art leadership business called LIFE ( Living Intentionally For Excellence ) will be unrolled, bringing hope back to people who didn’t have answers to their problems and now will. Meet people from all walks of social economic backgrounds as they become passionate about purpose again.

Apple just released its third quarter earnings today: $28.57 billion dollars, with a net profit of $7.31 billion. Marketdata in 2008 estimated the size of the self-help industry to be $11 billion annually. Facebook has over 750 million active users since 2004. How long has TEAM been trying to reach a million users?

Let’s be real here. The market potential for LIFE might be larger than the market for purple juice concentrate, but this is no ground-floor opportunity. With LIFE, you’re going to have to compete with the likes of Tony Robbins, John Maxwell, and a host of other established self-help gurus.

Saying that “this is an unprecedented moment in business as ‘A Whole New Industry’ will be unveiled” is like painting a piece of sh*t yellow and calling it gold.

Guzzardo is joined in his hyperbolic statements by new Policy Council member Dan Hawkins. Bold emphasis below is mine from Dan’s recent blog post about the Leadership Conventions:

Correction: The quote below is actually from Chris Brady. Dan had just copied and pasted it from an email sent out by Brady.

Enter Orrin Woodward. Since I’ve known him he has maintained a commitment to “do things right.” Many times in our journey in this profession when coming up against something that wasn’t entirely right, Orrin would promise me that we would fix it. Without throwing the baby out with the bath water, we are about to do what we’ve known in our heart we need to do for a long time. Orrin Woodward and the PC will go down in history as creating a whole new industry, too.

Orrin’s been promising a lot of things for the past decade. Walmart of the Internet and going to a million are two that come to mind that haven’t exactly panned out. And how to read the statement about throwing the baby out with the bath water? Is that like, “Well, we know that we’ve been scamming people, but we’ll keep on doing that until we find something better to scam them with?”

Guzzardo concludes by telling people it’s not too late to attend:

It’s not too late to attend. If you have doubts, money challenges for the investment of the ticket, or time constraints from other obligations please talk to someone on your team about a solution to these obstacles that would keep you from a life changing event. You only get an opportunity to be part of something like this once in a lifetime. Actually, something like this occurs once in history. The ripple effect on business, your own life, and generations to come hangs in the balance. Make sure you see me and tell me how you made the decision to attend and let’s make a difference together.

Georgie is asking people to attend a pre-launch meeting for a business that won’t even open in November. Why can’t this information be delivered for FREE on your website or via email? And, how is George going to promote the actual launch? Would it go something like this?

It’s not too late to attend. If you have doubts, money challenges for the investment of the ticket, or time constraints from other obligations please talk to someone on your team about a solution to these obstacles that would keep you from a life changing event. You only get an opportunity to be part of something like this once in a lifetime. Actually, something like this occurs once in history. The ripple effect on business, your own life, and generations to come hangs in the balance. Make sure you see me and tell me how you made the decision to attend and let’s make a difference together.

I feel sad for those hundreds and thousands of people who are going to attend the conference thinking that this event will change their lives. They are going to fork over hundreds of dollars to listen to the same recycled quotes from the same old leaders. If they remain brainwashed, they’re going to do it all over again in three months.

Want to know the real reason George and Dan are promoting the crap out of these events? Ask them how much money they will make from each of their downline who attends? If they don’t give you a straight answer or if they say something like, “We don’t make money from these events,” please run to the exit door as fast as possible!

Update 7/24/2011: Chris Brady posted up the TEAM pre-release on the pre-announcement of LIFE:

Over the course of this weekend and the next, at the Team’s Summer Leadership Conventions, details will be rolled out announcing the launch of LIFE: Living Intentionally For Excellence, a business that will monetize materials and information designed to improve people’s lives through the “8F’s:” Fitness, Faith, Family, Finances, Friendship, Following, Freedom, and Fun. The official launch of business is set for November 1, 2011.

With over 100 years experience in the community building profession, the seven members of the Team’s Policy Council are excited to continue their partnership with MonaVie as they advance this new initiative. MonaVie will remain the exclusive provider of wellness products in the Fitness “F,” and of course, continue to provide their industry-acclaimed compensation plan. The LIFE initiative simply adds to this, pursuing the other seven “F’s” directly with resources designed to make the biggest impact in people’s lives, while offering to compensate participants for these efforts.

“Poor” MonaVie… reduced to just one “pillar” out of eight in Orrin Woodward’s new venture. What ever happened to all of Orrin’s pronouncements that MonaVie was the best MLM business in the world for making money? Looks to me, and anyone who has a working brain, that the business Orrin has always put at number one is his own training business. TEAM Distributors, face the truth; it’s Orrin’s world, and you’re just living and paying him in it.

1 Most MLM training organizations promote their upcoming Major Functions as the best ones yet.

243 Comments leave one →
  1. Huperdeim permalink
    July 19, 2011 3:49 pm

    In my opinion, the self-help industry as a whole is something of a scam in itself. To combine it with MLM? Wow, that is sad.

    No offence to those who have found self-help methods to be helpful. It just didn’t do much for me. 🙂

  2. July 19, 2011 4:13 pm

    This makes me so sad to see this type of shit perpetuate.

    I hope people wake up to Orrin Woodward the Clown & his merry band of shysters real soon.

  3. Speak Your Truth permalink
    July 19, 2011 4:34 pm

    Amthrax~ Thanks for the seriously, deep outload belly laugh. It does the heart good! I could not have said it better!!! I love the ‘run for the exit door’; perhaps as if there is a fire in the building! Bahahahah!!! There is not a damn thing that has changed, right down to the hyperbole promotion!

    You are right though it is sad that there will be many suckers who fall for the hype and will be churned inside of the cultish fanaticism for years to come, who will lose many more millions collectively to quit and be replaced and bashed on their way out, by the next sucker, UNLESS of course the Justice System, and other Organizations decides to take it seriously, do their jobs, and stand up for the consumers, put an end to the millions of dollars being taken by false hope, false promises and the ‘ passive, residual, business opprotunity’ and all the rest of lies, from the American people. God knows many have devoted thousands of hours, written books, done studies, to prove this. What part of the more than 99% of those who LOSE, doesn’t constitute a serious investigation? Good news it is seems CORRUPTION and FRAUD are being exposed on a daily basis!

    Funny, most people will think Orrin and the PC are promoting only the L.I.F.E ‘ changing experience of yet a ‘one & only’ major function just as you said they will say the same bullsh*t hyperbole when the next one roles around, just has they have been repeating since building Amway almost 2 decades ago!

    I don’t doubt all them suckers believe: “Without throwing the baby out with the bath water, we are about to do what we’ve known in our heart we need to do for a long time.”

    I love your comments on that and very predicatable, I also believe the baby equals MONEY, how can we continue to con(just giving them hope long enough to keep them spending; giving us their hard earned MONEY) that we KNOW they will never recoup, but now we can convince them to donate more to OUR BANK ACCOUNTS; by telling them to stop buying juice that we NEVER sold to customers anyway, and never have!! Now we can ‘escape’ the pyramid objections and more MONEY for the lifestyle of the PC! How stupid are they counting on people to be?

    Do people REALLY believe Orrin is giving up HIS MV money? And He is doing the ‘right thing’ because they have always done that? That is the farthest thing from the real truth and the naive are falling for it.

    Need I remind the brainwashed follows that Orrin, has Randy H., Billy F., Smiths, Crawfords, etc and ALL their groups who ARE building and buying the ‘juice’ with THEIR efforts will continually PAY ORRIN. What is Orrin giving up, here? NOTA!

    Everyone ELSE will be expected to promote the L.I.F.E. training and NOT MV, but the MV MONEY will continue to flow to ORRIN!
    It is Amazing how gullable people are and buy into their supposed,’ I love ya man ‘ they have integrity and only want what’s best for YOU, heroism, BS!
    Unbelievable that people don’t THINK and figure this one out!

    Orrin must be smiling all the way to the bank!

  4. July 19, 2011 5:22 pm

    Speak – Exactly correct! Orrin and the rest of the Policy Council will smile all the way to the bank! It’s the same at every major leadership, everybody has to get the newest, latest, and greatest, materials! A lot of times it’s the same audio cd’s just with different packaging. Can you imagine how many new cd’s, books, and pamphlets will be thrust upon the masses during the unveiling!? I shutter to think how many people will be throwing their money away on this stuff.

    To all the people that are about to blindly follow Team into this new venture….if you were in during the switch from Amway to Monavie…..HELLO…YOU TRIED THIS ALREADY! Just Leadership as your product! What a joke. Oh I can see it now….a 19 year old, just out of school kid, or a single mother of three, pushing leadership materials as a vehicle to “get free”. This is going to be awesome to watch from the side lines!! I actually can’t wait to have a front row seat to this disaster in the making! I just feel sorry for all the people who will continue to tow the line, for the top “Leaders” to rake in the cash. This will be a train wreck! You thought you had a problem selling $45 bottles of juice? Ha…. wait till this baby is rolled out! By the way Orrin…..still waiting for the Wal-Mart of the internet. How’s that coming?

  5. Chuckles permalink
    July 19, 2011 5:56 pm

    As they have always said…..”We stole everything you hear tonight from someone else.” So in reality they won’t be in competition with Robbins and Maxwell, they will be palagerizing them and others and packaging it as something “new”.

    I pray for those poor souls who attend. They are just as blind as we were once. It is up to us to keep offering the “pill” to help them out of the “Matrix”. We made it out, so will they eventually.

    In my case, I got out AFTER I took my mentor’s “financial advice” and cashed in my mutual funds and 401k. I was told that all I had to do was focus on building. We were right there ready to explode. We exploded all right. We exploded right into financial ruin and bankruptcy. Hopefully these folks will avoid making the mistake of listening to UNQUALIFIED individuals dole out advise on the “8 F’s”.

    Sometimes I wonder what in the heck I was thinking, taking spiritual, financial, family and fitness advise from factory engineers, school teachers, physical therapists, an electrician who has anger issues, a pizza franchise owner, a plumber, a DNR officer and a fellow who finished wood floors for a living. That guy is still following blindly after he was sold a bill of goods by his upline to sell his successful business and just focus on building communities. This advice was given him just before the break with Amway. He did just as he was told and ended up working FOR the guy he sold his business to, and just a few weeks ago had a moving sale because he LOST HIS HOME!!!

    On second thought, the heck with praying for these followers, we should start a class action suit against the perpetrators that feed on the ignorant and pass themselves off as experts. These frauds should be thrown in jail.

    Thank you.

  6. Speak Your Truth permalink
    July 19, 2011 7:25 pm

    MLM Punisher~ Thanks for the laughs much needed! 🙂 You nailed it!

    Chuckles~ Your stories continue to make me angry and are very sad. I know this bullsh*t goes on, If you don’t follow your ‘upline’s’ criminal (my Opinion) then you better look out!

    You are right, they should be held ACCOUNTABLE, for ALL the lives they messed up with their bogus ‘counseling’, false promises,deception, stealing, lying! Losing Homes & Bankruptcies, Marriages stressed, and their children suffering paying the price; for their idiotic greedy advice just makes me ill. Class Action; wonder if they would tell the truth in court? Hmmm….? Seems to me the end justifies the means in EVERY case! I have heard some stories and from my experience that they have lied to and about us, no doubt about what they wouldn’t do to protect their MONEY!

    Unfortunatelly, I have also heard stories like yours and the way the misleaders have treated them is appalling, after they have shown complete and utter loyality. These guys will turn on themselves.

    I have been told Dan Hawkins is telling some of his ‘misleaders’ that they can make at least 3 times more from TEAM than products, I know personally this to be true and that screams PYRAMID. A class action is probably inevitable but as you said I would rather see the Criminal Justice System do their job. I have also been told the Hawkins make $70,000 a MONTH from the TEAM but pretty sure they aren’t going to come on here to verify that for us. So, that I guess would still be a mystery! LOL

    So, anyone foolish enough to think that MONEY isn’t the MAIN thing or these guys are not making bags of money off others, is either in total denial, getting paid, or they are just plain naieve and snowed!

    The other garbage is just a front.

  7. Steve permalink
    July 19, 2011 8:12 pm


    That electrician with the anger issues, he was my upline. He has been back to work now for about three years. By the way he still has those issues, and a few more.

  8. I Quit ( and glad I Did) permalink
    July 20, 2011 5:07 am

    Don’t throw the baby out with the bath water. Good grief! How ’bout some new material guys… I remember Brady using that one way back in the days when I was still a zombie. Oh yeah, thats right. Its ALL stolen. NO ORIGINAL THOUGHT.

  9. TOD permalink
    July 20, 2011 6:21 am

    So at the end of the month, F.A.I.L. is launched. Which means that there will be another business that leaders will stand on stage and promote how successful they are in “this” business, even though they made all of their money in the business before the last one. Totally Fraudulent! If I see one more version of Superman, then I am going to go to the local open and cause a scene. If some Team member happens along this site, then I hope they realize that the author of that CD made money in Quixsand (from tools, of course). Not MV and not the new “business”.

    Also, go check out some old Jim Rohn info and see how much info is recycled from Rohn. Chuckles is right (and is also my favorite lightly sugared jelly candies.) Yummy.

  10. Chuckles permalink
    July 20, 2011 7:10 am

    Thanks TOD, but I draw the line at coating myself lightly in sugar.

    SYT, Steve…everyone commenting on this post…….Thanks for your responses and support.

    This new post got me thinking about Ty Tribble and his MLM Blog. He posted the arbitration ruling and that turd’s response to it.

    While reading it, I could not help but remember hearing from stage how they were winning every court case and all is going exactly as planned.

    I also discovered that all of Legacy settled out of court as did Florence. But the TEAM minions fought till the death, following that turd to ruin. This indicates to me that he is also a very dangerous person.

    One leader and his wife filed bankruptcy, which effectively sheltered them from paying anything. I was at an open, which took place after the ruling, in which the coward/liar claimed to be totally on board with TEAM leadership and the cause to change lives. He spoke very highly of the turd and actually said “He’s figured this thing out and we are going to a million people!”

    “TOTALLY ON BOARD”??? I hate to break the news to you, dufus, but filing bankruptcy to get out of the lawsuit is ABANDONING THE CAUSE!! LIKE A RAT DESERTING A SINKING SHIP!

    One thing is true though, they are changing lives. I experienced that first hand!

    Here is a link to the article…I think it should work.

    This one should take you right to the PDF of the ruling.

    Click to access AmwayArbitrationAward.pdf

    Thank you.

  11. switch permalink
    July 20, 2011 7:58 am

    From one disguise to the next…’s ALL looking waaaaaay too familiar.

    a classic, “PAY NOW, PLAY LATER” command.

    Those “pesky little facts” aren’t so little anymore, now are they?

  12. July 20, 2011 7:59 am

    Quick correction on the original post. Dan was quoting from an email/post by Chris Brady. Also in the post was this line:

    Each person who attends will be issued an official certificate of participation, proving that he or she was there when it all began.

    Great, people attending this weekend are going to spends hundreds of dollars in travel, lodging, meals, tickets, and tools. What do they get as a reward? A piece of paper.

    Hope someone posts it on the web for all to see.

  13. Samantha permalink
    July 20, 2011 10:50 am

    LIFE is nothing more than the re-branding of Team MonaVie materials, which were re-branded Team materials, which were re-branded Team of Destiny materials. The ONLY purpose is to generate revenue from the sale of materials most of these people already own. Nothing new here but the labels.

    The REAL 8 Fs: fraudulent, fakery, false promises, fictitious, fishy, fony, fallacious, and full of…

    How about the 8 Ds: deceptive, delusive, devious, dishonorable, disloyal, double-dealing, duplicitous, double-crossing

  14. switch permalink
    July 20, 2011 11:33 am

    The question is, how they’re going to spin this?

    They talk about “fixing it” and promising to do so……question, how can you fix something that’s shattered?

  15. Speak Your Truth permalink
    July 20, 2011 11:43 am

    A rewarded ‘piece of paper’ are you KIDDING? LOL They have bashed legitimate degree’s and those who hang them on their walls ,from colleges and other awards, for years! Bashing those they say are more concerned about ‘status’! Their hypocrisy disguts me. This is suppose to inspire people? What a joke! To me the only worth that has is starting some kindling! 😉

  16. Dorothy permalink
    July 20, 2011 3:08 pm

    This commenter requested that her comments be removed from this site.

  17. Dorothy permalink
    July 20, 2011 3:29 pm

    This commenter requested that her comments be removed from this site.

  18. Speak Your Truth permalink
    July 20, 2011 5:57 pm

    Samantha and Dorothy~ Agreed! What’s it going to take for them to hit rock bottom and be completely humbled? Give them enough rope… apparently they have gotten enough yet.

  19. July 21, 2011 12:12 am

    @Samanta – Thanks for your comments. What was the straw that broke your camel’s back with regards to Orrin Woodward and TEAM? What made you see the truth?

  20. Witty name describing curent circumstances permalink
    July 21, 2011 1:11 am

    Hey guys, thanks for helping a big, (although young and gullible) dreamer open his eyes and finally take a look at Team from a different perspective. After what I’ve read on this site, it’s just a matter of time before I sever my ties with the business for good. I have a ticket to the major at the end of this month, so I think I’ll go to that (especially the way they keep hyping it up….might as well see what they’re going to be trying next if i already “invested” in my ticket). They’ve hyped the darn thing up enough that even someone on the way out feels compelled to see what’s happening, which either means something big might actually happen, or they’re grasping for whatever they can get (who knows)

    To the former team leaders who have been posting I have some questions. At what level did you start to realize that the business wasn’t quite all it’s cracked up to be? Was it only after closer encounters with your “moving on upline” and pc members? I ask because the highest leader I encounter on a consistent basis is a silver (mostly hang with bronzes and star 1000s) and I just can’t imagine that they would still be as psyched as they seem to be if they knew about the experiences you guys have been talking about. I’ve brought up this site and others and was told that most of the info was largely fictional, which I find somewhat difficult to believe. But yeah I’m still attending opens and seminars, but have stopped it with CDs because all they do is get me excited to be loose with my wallet and go out and buy more and more and more (i’m sure I’m some of these profit sharers dream guy….young, naïve, excitable, nice little savings account etc.) In my heart I feel like leaving is going to be the best decision for me. I’m a very happy person in general, but thinking about still going to opens and such makes me feel queesy…the only time I feel negative is when thinking about Team. Of course the system would attribute that to me not being willing to step outside of my comfort zone to chase my dream, but I think life will again begin to be colorful once again once people become people again instead of “prospects.” Anywho I tend to ramble so sorry for the long post, if you could address some of what I said I’d much appreciate!

    Peace and Love!

  21. Samantha permalink
    July 21, 2011 8:29 am

    Amthrax, I can’t say it was one straw that broke the camel’s back. For years, we thought the Woodward’s were our best friends. We followed them blindly through the legal battles with Quixtar, and just barely escaped having to file for bankruptcy by the skin of our teeth.

    I think I really started to get irritated when the cost of the training system kept increasing without any new value. I personally argued with the Team office countless times over simply the cost of a subscription to the Team “Electronic Business Center.” I think $180 per year to be able to log on and read a twice monthly blog post by Woodward or Brady goes way beyond reasonable. Then they thought we needed 12 monthly seminars PLUS the majors, four weekly CDs instead of two or three, and two books each month instead of one. When they added the webcasts, I finally realized this had nothing to do with helping people succeed but was entirely geared to lining the Policy Council’s pockets. (For those who don’t know: you purchase the ability to show a webcast at your home or meeting place. Let’s say it’s a Men’s Leadership–you pay the Team office $50. Then you are supposed to charge everyone at your house $10. If you have more than 5 people attend, you are supposed to send the additional money to the Team office.) The final kick in the teeth was adding a fourth major seminar every year.

    When I went Triple 100 and Round Table, the cost of full system for a couple was just over $200 per month. It has now increased 75% to a minimum of $350 per month, NOT counting travel costs to conventions, the cost of MonaVie, or ANY extra tool purchases. And every time they re-brand the tools, don’t you feel like you HAVE to buy all the new stuff? At the very least you have to re-purchase anything you would give to a prospect or sell to new distributors. Can you say Greed?

    Another big red flag came at a Director’s meeting at a Major convention. (A Director is someone who qualifies for Team profit sharing. You have at least 12 people on system and 25 seminar tickets in each of two legs.) All Directors were given Team contracts to read and sign right there—we were not allowed to have copies of these contracts or remove them from the room. If you didn’t sign, you wouldn’t get profit sharing. Can you say Coercion?

    Now about the recognition that is too often rigged. It is a well-known fact that Dan and Lisa Hawkins have achieved their level by some very strategic re-arranging of groups by Mr. Woodward. One couple in my downline was recognized on stage for Round Table when their ticket numbers were far short of the stated qualifications. And the Top Gun contests aren’t even funny. For example, one couple won Ruby Top Gun at a Major, yet they had only had Ruby volume through MonaVie once, and that was over a year prior and ONLY because there had been a glitch in the MonaVie computers and everyone got points that they had not earned. MonaVie honored the volume anyway and gave people the rank. But it is important for the loyal sheep to see people moving on, just so they can be reminded that if they too aren’t moving on, they must be doing something wrong. It couldn’t be that it doesn’t work. Can you say Corruption?

    Oh, I have lots more to tell, but I need to get back to work. Yes, I now have a real job, one that I actually like!

  22. switch permalink
    July 21, 2011 8:56 am

    ….and it’s getting better by the day.

    Very well done, Samantha.

  23. I Quit ( and glad I Did) permalink
    July 21, 2011 9:17 am

    And yet another added to the ranks!! Welcome Samantha. I too now have a job. That I like. It sure beats putting up with all the Team crap. Never thought I’d feel that way once upon a time but I sure do now. What a loser I am.

  24. July 21, 2011 9:49 am

    @witty – Thank you for sharing your comments; I’m glad that you have an open outlook with regards to this website. You are definitely seeing that 2 + 2 is not equaling 4 with TEAM.

    If you want to save money, you should ask for a refund on your ticket before this weekend. See what your upline leaders say about that. That said, if you still plan to go, take notes and report back from the conference. Your facts won’t be construed as “fiction” by those Bronze and Star 1000s you hang out with, right?

  25. Steve permalink
    July 21, 2011 10:17 am


    It became apparent to us, and I am only speaking for my wife, and myself, that things weren’t right when my upline told us to by products to to stretch and secure our business to the next pin level. This was way back in the Quixtar days before Team got involved with MV. Stretch and secure meant you were expected to buy products to push your pv over and in the next six months you were to build your business, and then have the new IBO’s pv secure your business. So we were told to buy products that we didn’t need or want so that my upline could become an Emerald in his Quixtar business. That little trick got us to the platinum level, and I am very sorry to say got us in a financial mess, and also moral, and integrity issues. I remember early in MV, we hit the Silver level by volume product buying in our downline, and we didn’t go across the stage for recognition. My wonderful upline asked why we didn’t go across, and I just looked at him, and told him that it wasn’t right. He didn’t quite understand my answer because he is still in today telling the lies, and deception to all of those who would listen. Please do yourself a favor and call the team office and get a refund on your ticket. There will be enough information on the L.I.F.E. launch that you will be able to get. The best part is, it will be for free. Thank you for asking the questions. This is the only way I know of for all of you to start to see the truth.

  26. Speak Your Truth permalink
    July 21, 2011 11:50 am


    Thanks for having the guts, integrity, and being bold with the truth. You are confirming what all know to be fact and for us who have been telling the truth of our first hand experiences, since we all arrived on Amthrax and other’s blogs. Kudos’ and thanks to all of them; for having the courage to provide the place.

    The hypocrisy is unthinkable. The corruption and manipulation of pin levels p*sses me off, especially for those of us who EARNED it, the top guns and the levels we achieved; the hard way. Then on the other hand it is quite disturbing, how desperate they really are, that they will stoop to fake the recognition, and the selling of their souls for a worthless piece of silver, to deceive others to believing the ‘business is working’, cover for a molester? How far will they go?

    One thing I miss is those I cared for ;( that are no longer with the team) and we don’t get to run into anymore. So just a hello, to all of you and thanks for being here! 🙂

    The journey to hell and back is hard for some to understand and explain. It’s like taking a ‘trip’ in the twilight zone. Unless you have been up close and personal to Orrin, Laurie & the PC, and have seen the evil, manipulation, cons, for which they are, (at least for us I say that loosely I will explain when I comment to Witty) it is hard for others to ever seen anything but the ‘fake friendships and I love you man’s,’ con game to keep you spending and performing.

    Thanks for all you’re sharing and keep bringing it! 🙂

  27. I Quit ( and glad I Did) permalink
    July 21, 2011 1:03 pm

    Witty- That nagging feeling you have inside which the system keeps telling you is wrong, is actually right. Thats the exact same way it went for us- slowly, then suddenly. (To coin a phrase) LISTEN TO YOUR GUT! ITS CORRECT.

  28. Speak Your Truth permalink
    July 21, 2011 2:29 pm

    Welcome to the site! Congratulation to YOU for having the sense to see the truth and critically think on your own! I agree with Amthrax, whatever you choose; choose wisely, and come back to let us know about the ‘big bang’; if that is what you choose to do. LHOL Sorry, we have heard that for over a decade and half! THERE ARE NO SECRETS OR BIG BANG that’s their game of coercion!

    I could write a book on that question alone but will keep it short. It took a complete shock and a series of blatant in your face corruption, with the registration from Amway to MV for us to break the chains.

    They are master illusionist and are great deceivers, and because they are masters at their evil game, it was a slow then sudden wake-up! They indoctrinate people with the ‘Christian’’ fake friendships’ and all the other garbage. My spouse confronted Orrin on the integrity issues and the standard answer was always; FIX IT! It took a series of phone calls to figure out that they were all corrupt, Orrin acted like he didn’t know this was going on then the TRUTH showed up for my spouse, and FINALLY he recognized that Orrin WASN”T the friend he thought he was and worse, isn’t who he PRETENDS to be.

    For me personally, I have never fully trusted Orrin or Our PC (male) they pulled some stuff and Orrin lied to me in the way beginning. So, I never looked at them with the ‘awe’ others did.

    It did take many years of observation, paying close attention to their actions, you could see the greed taking over and the GRAND FINALY to have the PROOF for at least what I believed about them was true. It is very complex and hard to explain. I wish I could say that was the case with my spouse, him and Orrin were ‘best friends’ or so he thought. It was an extreme betrayal! I had many times pointed out the subtle discrepancies but Orrin is a master a playing the game. You can read the post in the archives: March 15, 2011. WHAT REALLY HAPPENED IN THE 6 MONTHS BETWEEN AMWAY/QUIXTAR & MONAVIE? That thread will explain the rest.
    Sorry for the rambling, hope this makes sense, but had limited time. Good luck 🙂

  29. Witty name describing curent circumstances permalink
    July 21, 2011 3:40 pm

    Thank you to all for getting back so quickly. I’ve been pretty much devouring pretty much any and all posts and comments left and I’m rattled to say the least. Just a month ago or so, I was telling my upline how this was the way and how blessed I am to have found this opportunity and how fortunate I was, given all the pyramid schemes out there, that I was approached by THE PREMIERE newtwork marketing fastest in the world blah blah blah thing EVER! I’ll have to come back and share a little from my perspective once I’ve completely severed my ties with TEAM, as I’ve spent a ton of time and money on my “leadership journey.” what’s sick to me is that even though I’m beginning to realize that I’ve most likely been duped, my brain is still saying “look at all you learned though!” and I have learned a lot about myself through this journey, but my I feel my talents are going to be making huge differences elsewhere. I think one of the hardest things coming up for me is trying to tell the guy who sponsored me that I’m leaving, just because we’ve developed a genuine friendship through this process. Unfortunately, since he feels he has “found the way” to get his dreams and what not, and that all of our friends and myself are still schooling it up and pursuing higher education, he unkowingly acts very arrogant and holier than though, which is really turning me off. What got me hooked is that I felt finally there was a group of people who were similar to me in regards to the outlook on life. And a highly paid social club (as they promoted it)?? Sign this sanguine son-of-a-gun up! Sheeesh.

  30. July 21, 2011 4:05 pm

    @Witty – Here are links to all of the posts that I have written about TEAM and Orrin Woodward.

    With regards to the poo-poo’ing of higher education, be sure to read this post about TEAM and a College Education.

    Ask yourself what are they offering at this LIFE Conference next week? According to Brady, everyone who attends will receive a certificate that says you were there. At the same time they poo-poo higher education, they position TEAM and LIFE like higher education. Think about it, and you’ll see more of the hypocrisy in every word they utter.

  31. Speak Your Truth permalink
    July 21, 2011 4:30 pm


    Do not feel bad everyone single one of us in one way or another felt the same way you do and ironically that is the TRAP, to get you to “FEEL” like you are with a group of ‘honesty’ people with an ‘honest’ way to help others and get ‘highly paid’. For us the ‘play’ was we were ‘helping people’ and the money was going to be the ‘by-product’ while learning and being around ‘positive’ people but take heed to the warnings here, that is no accident, it is a very strategic game of manipulation to play on your emotions. That is why they with everything in them; ‘promote even to tears,’ coerce, to get you to that ‘first’ seminar or major. Every leader knows that is what ‘hooks’ a person emotionally, and those who are the ‘best’ at getting people there have the biggest numbers in their groups or at least used to, now it is nothing but ‘faking it’. Don’t take this lightly they play your emotions. We learned a lot also and as it turns we learned who we were not, and stood our ground for what we believed was the right thing to do. Simply put, we weren’t willing to sell our souls.

    Even though at the time we believed by getting people ‘in the enviroment’ we were ‘changing their lives’, getting them aroung the ‘positive’, we had no idea it was full of corruption all the way to the TOP and they would steal, cheat and lie in the end. They stole our groups and profit-sharing also after a decade and a half of building. It was during the ‘registration’ we figured out the entire operation and that Orrin was behind every bit of the corruption and the rest of the ‘sheet’ just rolls downhill. It became cyrstal clear, and shocking to say the least. There is waaaayyyy more to the story and I would spend some time as webelieved suggested in the Ex-team comments but also this site is loaded with posts of many experiences. I am so glad for you that you don’t have to look back and see you missed your childrens entire childhood chasing a lie, and live with those regrets like we do. It truly has a ripple effect on everyone around you, and not in a ‘positive way.’

  32. Speak Your Truth permalink
    July 22, 2011 8:00 am

    Webelieved~ Yep that is from the “MLM Scam-Handbook” (4th edition) (stole from humiliated) rule # 3, “Diversion” LHOL, Gotta love it, I laughed so hard. Funny but true. They have honed the skill of diversion, it only works temporarily, and it’s because they can’t stand up to the truth so they avoid it!

    Funny how the teamer’s tell everyone what to do like STOP typing ‘paragraphs’ about ‘negative’ TRUTH. LOL

    Like they are in charge of our lives? I say earth to teamer’s; get real, we DON’T and NEVER will, do what you tell us too! You can see how well their ‘orders’ work here on Amthrax!

    Like that is going to get people to STOP telling the TRUTH! That has got to be the most hysterical thing I have seen ordered yet! That is just stupid. LHOL

  33. Speak Your Truth permalink
    July 22, 2011 8:27 am

    I have some questions for you, just looking to see if what you experienced is the same BS we did?

    I am curious if you experienced the same thing we did with your ‘profit-sharing’?

    We were making double digits with a comma, income on a monthly basis, when we left Q/A then our income dropped down to 500 bucks, with NO explanation. Our system numbers didn’t drop not even 1. Orrin told everyone HE ONLY USED HIS MONEY for the lawsuits? I can only speculate because I don’t have access to the con’s books, but it doesn’t take a genius to figure out, there is NO WAY our income should have dropped, based on our numbers.

    Then I spoke to couple other BIG leaders, same thing, (legs stolen by Orrin). We had downline with smaller groups who were making a lot more? We then asked the office for the 20 plus page contract we signed, they REFUSED to give it to us. To this day they refuse. And if you have the contract send it to Amthrax, LOL. So curious if this happened to you also?

    Also what you do you know about the ‘legal fund’? We had a girl on our team that I basically lost touch then ran into her boyfriend who told me the scumbags, were still taking money out of her account a YEAR later! If Orrin paid out of his OWN pocket for the lawsuits, then who got the ‘legal fund’ monies? We KNOW he is a compulsive liar (from experience) but curious what you know.

    Another one, Orrin and Laurie had a big meeting with our group during the ‘gag order’ and was texting us ; So we know he was BREAKING the LAW. Did you experience this too?
    Another one; Did your groups get destroyed and manipulated during registration into MV?

    Looking forward to your response! 🙂

  34. July 22, 2011 10:16 am

    Editor’s Note: At the request of Samantha, I edited down some of the comments about the RT member. Let’s keep the conversation away from that for now.

  35. They're Watching Us! :) permalink
    July 22, 2011 11:22 am

    Hopefully Samantha is not using her real first name. 🙂 I posted a couple comments using my first name and it wasn’t too long after that I received a visit from my former upline asking me about it. His PC upline called him on it and gave him grief so he came to confront me about it. Asked me if it was me or if my computer got hacked because it was quite obvious it was something that he had emailed me. I just lied to him and told him it wasn’t me (although we both know it was). 🙂
    He was saying things like “I thought we were friends and he knew a good Christian guy like me wouldn’t try to sabotage his business.” I almost started laughing in his face since this is the first time I’ve heard from him since I stopped TEAM.
    Anyways, hopefully Samantha is being careful because she was higher up than I was and she would have a lot more to lose.

  36. No Team For Me permalink
    July 22, 2011 12:45 pm

    Samantha – please stay on this site. The information you have could be very valuable in the future.

    Speak – A good portion (and I mean a good portion) of the legal fees were paid for by connections with the MonaVie executive staff. It is very common for large pins from one company to receive non-disclosed bonuses or “gift’s” as a thank you for bringing their group over. AIn several instances these bonuses have been in the hundreds of thousands and in a few – in the millions. At the time, Orrin was not just bringing his group to the table, but at the time, he had Florence, Haugen, Newton, Effie Reid, Paullin, Harteis, DeSalvatore, Goetschel, Sitzler, Mattis, Lance Smith, Sims, Emery, Libby, and many more. Add up those numbers and ask yourself how much a company would be willing to pay for something that big (larger than any single organizations move of leadership in the industry).

    Please reread that paragraph and keep asking that question.

    Also, I think you are on to who was still receiving bonuses during the interesting situations of profit sharing drop. Add up the numbers of all the people on system in your group. Multiply that times the amount the average person was spending each year (included all tools, system, seminars, majors and extra tool purchases. Multiply this number times all the Directors & RT’s. It will be shocking.

    Also, how was Tim Marks able to purchase a top of the line Prevo Motorcoach during this period when everyone else’s PS checks were down?

    Things that make you go hmmmmm 🙂

    Witty – go to the tool room as soon as you get there during the major. Bring a pen. Write down the cost of each tool available. Do a count of how many of each item is on the table and how many would fit in a box. Look under each table and see how many full boxes are under the skirting of the table. Look in the back where the extra supply is stashed. Please make sure to pay particular attention to the CD packs which hold 6 cd’s per pack and take up little space but sell for $32+. Add up how many different packs are there and how many of each are in inventory. Don’t forget to add up all the apparell that will be sold.

    Now count how many people are in the venue and multiply times the cost of the ticket. 6,000 people times $125 = $750,000 just in ticket revenue. (By the way, just the people at the major going to each of the 12 monthly seminars at $30 a person is $2,160,000 in revenue and normally there are more people at the local monthly’s than at the major). However, if you add up the tool sales, you will realize ticket revenue is nothing compared to the take on tools & apparell.

    Do your research Witty. Please let us know what you find.

  37. Speak Your Truth permalink
    July 22, 2011 6:02 pm

    No Team For Me~

    Thanks for the comments, I have added up what our group was bringing in many times. The problem is and will always be, know one knows whether they are manipulating the pay plan, we all know anyone that had integrity wouldn’t do that but we aren’t dealing with honest people here. I know that our numbers didn’t change, pf checks showed what your group totals purchased for tools at seminars & majors, speaking fee’s, weekly system and tickets. I will dig out a old check and let you know. When I figured the percentage (at that time) we were paid WORSE than AMWAY was paying.That is why I know something was corrupt. Especially when you know your downline is making more with smaller numbers.

    That still doesn’t answer WHO go the MONEY from the ‘legal fund’ that the people were DONATING. My point is there were a lot of people on the TEAM waisting/donating their money for who? And if there was at least one who went bankrupt, and Samantha said she barely escaped it going through the lawsuits, then again who got the donated legal fund money?

    Numbers on system and in opens x2 = butts in seats at the seminars.You are right the local’s have more than the major’s. Don’t think either have enough now. 🙂
    I do understand what you are saying about the ‘negotiating power’ Orrin used that a lot when he would spread the news about the TEAM going Wal-Mart of the internet. Then he reneged on that we all know. LOL Went to the best ‘bench marking awarded’ $ 40 a crack, juice co. 🙂

    Orrin doesn’t do ANYTHING without making sure it benefits him and if he was an honest person with integrity he would disclose at least to the Team how much if any he got from bringing other people’s groups to MV. I have heard he did but no way to verify it.

    My opinion, if he did get paid from MV, he should have split that money up with the TEAM people who actually built it the TEAM because he sure as heck didn’t do the work.
    I have been in their coach and was told he ‘donated’ it to the Whaley House for abused children.
    Feels good to flush this stuff out and I do hope Samantha comes back, it does the soul good to get it out! This has helped me more than I can express. 🙂

  38. Speak Your Truth permalink
    July 22, 2011 6:31 pm

    There Watching Us~

    Thanks for the story. They haven’t changed a bit, perfect example of the dictatorship and how arrogant and contoling these narcissistic mis-leaders are. They honestly think they have to pay a visit to you to find out what you are doing with your life outside of the scam? WOW Are you serious? Can you say ‘control freaks’? Unbelievable, I would love for someone to show up at my house and try and tell me what I can or can not do.

    I would give them the attorney card and send them on their way probably with an escort, to make them feel special! Why wouldn’t the almighty PC take care of it? That’s another typical, send the ‘pawns’ to do the dirty work, unless it is a ‘phone call’ to tell you are great they are, then they would gladly take care of that for their fall guys.

    Is it against the law to share the truth of your experiences, and opinions? Are they still attempting to ‘silence the critic?” No WAY! 🙂

    This would be the typical attempted ‘guilt tactic’;
    “I thought we were friends and he knew a good Christian guy like me wouldn’t try to sabotage his business.”

    Sabotage his business? Why don’t your upline do a check list on what really sabotaged his and all the rest of the leaders business; things like lying, stealing, cheating, deceiving, theft and destruction of people’s business? Do they have amnesia now? Geez self-centered.

    Funny, they say ‘losers’, quitters’, those who want something for nothing, have no influence, then what are they worried about or why would they take their ‘time’ to bother? LHOL
    What would be the problem, they can’t convince others we are just the ‘death gargle of a non-achiever?’ 🙂

  39. Steve permalink
    July 22, 2011 7:47 pm

    To steal a line from The Great PoohBah “They’re going to make you broke, well I am already broke”. You took everything that I had, so let ’em come to my house and confront me. I got nothing to hide. I also heard he got a very princely sum to move to MV. From what I was told it was in the millions of dollars.

  40. No Team For Me permalink
    July 22, 2011 8:10 pm

    Speak – you were told that the reward money for moving over to MV was donated to the Whaley House? That’s great 🙂 We need to call the Whaley House and see just how much they received in donations.

    And while we’re on the topic, go to the All Grace Outreach website and see how much has been donated to charities.

    Now, add up the royalties from ‘Launching A Leadership Revolution’ (which were supposed to have been donated to All Grace Outreach.

    Now, we need Witty to look in the bucket that passes by him at the Sunday service during the Major and estimate how much is in that bucket alone. Then mulitply that amount times the total number of buckets being passed around (should still be over 100 buckets).

    Now mulitply that amount times 3 Majors a year. Then multiply that times the past 8 years or so.

    This number does not take into account the amounts which the PC members themselves should have donated to All Grace. Surely as leaders who earn over $1 million a year from MV, they would have donated a substantial amount?….. Okay 🙂 maybe not. So we’ll just stick with the number without any PC members contributing.

    Finally ask yourself, where did all that extra money go which does not seem to add up to the amount All Grace has donated since it’s inception?

    MonaVie Income
    Tool Income
    Legal Fund money
    All Grace Outreach money
    Book money
    Blog Click money
    Is there a percent of concession stand money negotiated into Major contracts too?

    Wow, there’s a lot of money changing hands

  41. No Team For Me permalink
    July 22, 2011 8:12 pm

    Steve & Webelieved – You’re on the right track regarding the amount.

  42. Steve permalink
    July 22, 2011 8:13 pm

    If I wasn’t laughing, I would be crying. Lol

  43. Speak Your Truth permalink
    July 22, 2011 9:26 pm

    No Team For Me~ NO. I was telling you that Tim Marks donated his coach to the Whaley House. That is the only connection to the Whaley House that I was referring to.

    Is there somewhere they state the amount of royalities they have collected and donated? The hard-cover edition is the only one the royalities get donated from.

    They have never annouced what they collect on anything nor did they ever tell the profit-shares how much money was actually in the profit-sharing pot. If is smells like fish, it is fish! There is NO transparency to the monies. Even though they cram that down leaders throats for them to be transparent. The only income we have ever heard we had to read in the Forbes Article. Nice Huh?

    I know in a legitimate business where we have been employed before they always, weekly posted the Profit-Sharing information for the entire company to view. Now that is transparency.

  44. Chuckles permalink
    July 23, 2011 5:03 am

    Hi Gang,

    As for the money passing through the TEAM office, I was told by someone who used to work there that it was more than we could imagine.

    The comment was, “There was so much money coming in it was like we were the Christian Mafia!”

  45. Steve permalink
    July 23, 2011 6:13 am

    “I’m going to make you an offer plate you can’t refuse”. Lol

  46. Chuckles permalink
    July 23, 2011 7:22 am

    “It’s not personal, it’s strictly business.”

  47. Chuckles permalink
    July 23, 2011 7:28 am

    Or how about ….”It’s a Sicilian message ….Luca sleeps with the “Loaves and Fishes.”

  48. Speak Your Truth permalink
    July 23, 2011 7:30 am

    No Team For Me~ Sorry for any confusion, I was in a hurry and probably didn’t communicate that well. 🙂

    Chuckles & Steve Too funny but true. It is a shame though that all that money was a collection from people who took those loses for the TOP 5 to rake it in. Forbes; 42 million 2007.

    “If the Dream is Big Enough though ‘pesky little facts’ Don’t count.”

  49. Speak Your Truth permalink
    July 23, 2011 7:39 am

    No Team For ME
    MONEY CHANGING HANDS! Their behavior is a lot like the MAFIA for sure, the Christian part not so much! I think for JUSTICE to be served, it would take a miracle or a class action, and if the latter happens, then I hope you all will be on the team, LOL 🙂

  50. Speak Your Truth permalink
    July 23, 2011 7:43 am

    Any ideas for a team name? LHOL

  51. No Team For Me permalink
    July 23, 2011 7:49 am

    Speak – I agree with you. I think a class action suit will be needed to open the eyes of all those who are being scammed and to serve justice to those who are taking advantage of so many innocent trusting people.

  52. No Team For Me permalink
    July 23, 2011 7:59 am

    I also agree with someone on one of the posts who suggested that a bunch of us show up at some of the seminars or majors to get the truth out.

    I think there are enough pretty big ex-leaders of team on here who could make a difference. Many of us were very well-known throughout the Team. And all of us had stories told about why we left. Imagine if all of us showed up to a Team event to let the truth be known. If they could see a bunch of us, I think it would be a big eye opener.

    As Orrin himself used to state, ‘All it takes for evil to triumph is for good people to do nothing.’

  53. Huperdeim permalink
    July 23, 2011 8:11 am

    If you guys do it, I will go along as moral support. Since I’ve never been involved I’m pretty much useless otherwise. 🙂

  54. July 23, 2011 8:39 am

    Speak is correct regarding the LLR hardcover being the only book whose proceeds are donated to AGO. You’ll also note that LLR (softcover edition) is in its — at least — SEVENTEETH edition by now.

  55. One time Fly that sat at the Team Conference Table permalink
    July 23, 2011 9:55 am

    Samantha – Your post is being noticed. I spoke with another former TEAM employee and that person said it was one of the best, fact filled, on the button post they’ve read here. I agree. Continue to fill this blog with these types of comments, as long as we all respond with facts, Orrin and his trained circus clowns are going to feel threatened, as they should!

    As for the big groups that Orrin brought with him to MV, Florence had already begun his departure from TEAM and Harties was in one week and out the next then back in…Harties was a flip flopper!! One of the things that intrigued me was when a large outside group would want to hop on board with OW and his ….cough..cough…”Leadership” programs, OW would be the one saying what leader on TEAM that group would fall under.

    When these outside groups would come on board, they were privately ridiculed during conference calls, (the mute button would be pushed so OW and his clowns could laugh at them) if they questioned CD selection in packs, development of tools, etc.

    I’ve stated this before, but one of the most telling things for me was being in a meeting when Randy Haugen pleaded with TEAM to never develop CD packs simply to have a new tool to “over hype” and sell at each Major… all see how far that advice was taken.

    Ok, I’m going back on the wall…

  56. Samantha permalink
    July 23, 2011 11:09 am

    You guys are awesome. Keep speaking out! Sorry I had to have my posts edited. I do NOT want to hurt any of the innocent people who just want to move on without looking back. And there are a LOT of people reading these blogs who are very uncomfortable right now. Good.

  57. One time Fly that sat at the Team Conference Table permalink
    July 23, 2011 11:26 am

    Trust me, I too look back with regret and some shame knowing that I was part of an organization that ultimately lost it’s way. I have spoken with several former TEAM office members, former TEAM Leaders who, like me, continue to shake their heads when looking back on all of this. We all need to continue to read these comments, and when we read another one that jars a memory loose of something that needs to come out, we need to comment. As a group we can help OW and his clowns get to a thousand….;-)

  58. john permalink
    July 23, 2011 12:01 pm

    Samantha, thanks for speaking out and sharing the truth as you have seen it and have lived it. People need to hear this so that it may help others from being caught in the same net of deception that has trapped so many. I too was deceived and fooled by the false promises and hype of always waiting for something better to come. It never did. It became apparent to me that this was just an elaborite scam that benefited only those at the top. The leaders know they are hurting people but defend and justify their actions by claiming to be helping others by the so-called 8 f’s or whatever it is. What they fali to realize is that for every person they have helped there are hundreds who are really bitter over the hurt and many loses they have suffered at the hands of these men and their clever scam. Thanks for sharing. People need to know the real truth!

  59. Speak Your Truth permalink
    July 23, 2011 12:02 pm

    I agree with you all!

    No Team For Me~ That would most definitely have the Shock Factor, especially if we had a nice little ‘brochure’ printed up with the TRUTH of WHY we left. Who knows we could ‘sell’ it as ‘leadership truth’ and become MILLIONAIRES! LOL Just kidding, them ‘poor’ souls are already going broke, but remember these people have been heavily under mind control and have been conditioned through mind control and look at us as THE enemy. Even though they KNOW what we say hits deep inside and they know what is said is truth.

    ONE TIME FLY ~ Great Post! The ole trick of the ‘mute button’ reminds me of when they kicked us and others out of the Profit-sharing meetings, they put everyone on mute so there would be NO QUESTIONS! EVERYONE of these PC will be accountable for All they have done and CONTINUE to do in one way or another.

  60. Speak Your Truth permalink
    July 23, 2011 12:16 pm

    I too want to commend you and also completely understand your decision and agree with it so no need to apologize. For me it doesn’t matter about anyone else except the damage done to an innocence child. I cannot shake the feelings about how this must be so devastating for her and will continue to pray. Thanks for standing in the truth on the other issues.

    I did ask you some questions in another posts, if you feel comfortable answering those it would be great. Hang in there, the truth does set you free! 🙂

  61. Speak Your Truth permalink
    July 23, 2011 12:18 pm

    Samantha~ Oops sorry it was in this thread that I asked you the questions. 🙂

  62. Speak Your Truth permalink
    July 23, 2011 12:27 pm

    Huperdeim~ You are FAR from useless! Thanks so much for your moral support! 🙂

    July 23, 2011 3:32 pm

    @Webelieved – I also heard Orrin got 10 million to go to MV. Also, in between Q and MV when everyone was suppose to be quiet, our upline PC had many meetings about the coming “Walmart of the internet”. He would say over and over how they would flip on the switch in 6 months and we would all be rich. Lies, lies, lies… And against the law since there was a gag order on the future.

  64. Speak Your Truth permalink
    July 23, 2011 3:52 pm

    Great Posts! I never thought of that, there is something to rejoice in, ALL THOSE NO’S!
    Thousands and thousands that quit and said NO! THANKS WEBELIEVED for making my DAY!

  65. john permalink
    July 23, 2011 5:07 pm

    Here are some comments from the book Consumed by Success written by Athena Dean. This is a book everyone should read and pass on to those who are still trapped in the deception of Team.

    “Today, I get at least five calls a week from fellow believers trying to recruit us into a new program that is ‘just incredible.’ They will usually talk about the tens of thousands their upline is making, after only months in the busines. they are just doing what they’ve been trained to do, to push all the right buttons, and if possible, get the expert upline on the phone with the prospect so they can catch that ‘big fish.’ That by the way, is one of the big dreams–to recruit someone who is a ‘heavy hitter’ with a large following. If you can get somehone like that involved, you can kick back, put your feet up, and watch the checks roll in. When I get calls each day, I almost feel like an ex-hooker. ‘Hi Athena, can I use you for a while, so that I can get what I want?’ ”

    “We sold the dream, and we sold it hard. We sold financial independence, life time residual income. We sold the things of the world, and justified that if we had unlimited income we could fund missions and ministries.” This is the lie that many fall for.

    “We planned to build to the point where we could kick back and have that quality time with our kids that we were sacrificing on a daily basis. We weren’t the only ones believing the lie that if we just work a few more hours now, later we could make it up to our kids and spouse by having financial freedom. For many others, that day never came, and we saw families deteriorate and destroyed one by one.”

    “The people I was involved with in my business had become my family. They made me feel good, and I wasn’t about to give that up for anyone, not even the Lord…If a person didn’t help build my business, I didn’t waste my time building a relationship with him or her.”

    “The truth is that my business drew me away from my husband. The business became my husband…in reality it became my family. I nurtured and paid more attention to those in my business than I did my own children. I just kept promising my kids that some day when we were making enough money, I would slow down on the business and spend more time with them. Of course, that some day never came.”

    This is a great book. Read it!!!!
    Sorry for the lengthy post but it just rings true to all of the people I knew in the business who are sacrificing their families on this incredible hoax.

  66. Shoot_to_kill permalink
    July 23, 2011 5:13 pm

    Wow, i’ve read from these posts from many bitter people. Say what you want, I would spend the money and time all over again. I’m not on this site to bash anyone, based on the comments I know some of you, not personally but thru CD’s and Speaking engagements. I guess many things are your perspective. We all agreed to go to these meetings or be on system by our own free will. Based on promotion or word of mouth advertising. Therefore we knew the price that was being charged and we paid it. Who’s to say what margin is too much. I am a business owner outside of TEAM and my profit margins are whatever i feel the market can bear without me losing the sale. That’s business, plain and simple. People are not drugged to come to an event. Just like you are not drugged to go see the Tigers play or the Lions,(even though they are terrible, talk about a scam LOL) sorry back to being serious. Business is business. Just this week i met two different individuals that were involved in an MLM from 1993 to 1995 and said it was the best thing that ever happened to them. because of the CD’s that lined Dexter’s pockets. They had no ill will towards him and shouldn’t. Anyway i’m signing them both up in TEAM this week 🙂 I wish nothing but the best to all your future endeavors, and i’m sorry if you felt manipulated. It’s not really what happens to us, but we we think happens to us. Brian Tracy You guys have a nice life and maybe i’ll see ya around sometime.

  67. They're Watching Us! :) permalink
    July 23, 2011 6:42 pm

    Latest info on the new LIFE business courtesy of Chris Brady.

  68. Chuckles permalink
    July 23, 2011 7:40 pm


    “flip the switch” We were told the same thing from our group leaders.

    We were also told that Pastor Dickie and Matt Abraham were flying all over the country setting things up and getting every major retailer around on board because the LLR book had impressed so many people across the country they simply could not ignore us.

  69. Speak Your Truth permalink
    July 23, 2011 7:42 pm

    John~ Yep we could ALL put our names in there, how sad we fell for the biggest LIE ever.
    Thanks for sharing that I will be trying to get it next week!

  70. Speak Your Truth permalink
    July 23, 2011 7:46 pm

    Chuckles & Checkpoint~ Wonder how the ‘million people’ is going? LHOL 🙂

  71. john permalink
    July 23, 2011 7:48 pm

    Chuckles could you explain your comment?

  72. Steve permalink
    July 23, 2011 7:50 pm

    And of course the Team of Destiny Island that the first 25 diamonds were to get first dibs on. Lol. What in the heck made me remember that?

  73. No Team For Me permalink
    July 23, 2011 9:35 pm

    Anyone remember Claude & Lana telling the story at the St. Louis major about how their upline missed his own son’s graduation and Valedictorian speech because he went to do an out-of-town home meeting for Claude & Lana?

    I also heard Chris Mattis was braggin recently about a couple who sold their wedding rings to get the money for a Major conference.

    I thought family, relationships and important memories with the kids are what it was supposed to be about.

  74. Chuckles permalink
    July 24, 2011 7:26 am

    Sure John. I will explain.

    Before the break my mentor and I were talking about what that “turd” had talked about from stage at a previous major. I want to say it was in Lansing when we had the circular stage, but I am not positive. I guess location is unimportant for what we were talking about.

    Anyway, what was said was this, “A site where we could purchase things 15-20% less than the general public.” He was talking about how Sam Walton started with an idea and grew that idea into “Walmart”. He went on to say that, with an idea, the TEAM could create a “Walmart of the Internet” type of business.

    Well it was during this conversation with my mentor that he told me how a business was being created “behind the scenes” that would be exactly what was talked about from stage. He then went on to say that he was not able to share many details with me just then, but it was time for me to really focus on my business. I need to “catch the wave” because it was coming and the people who get their business up and running strong would be the ones who make it when the new business is released.

    So we spent time once a week going over my business. You know….. Who the builders were, who may lead me to someone who would be a builder and who my shoppers were.

    Guess what, we started to grow! We went from turbo 6 to Turbo 25 quickly. Hut 1…. Hut 2…. POWER PLAYER!!!!

    …………..Fast foward to the release of the book and the break. We had just gone Gold. Platinum was right there. Turbo 50 was solidifying. We were adding systems and moving tickets. We were the leaders in our mentors second leg. He never helped build my team by dropping one at the bottom. (Remember how we all just kept dropping people to the bottom, everyone helping build this huge team…RIIIIIGHT!) He was focused on his 3rd team. He was going Triple 100.

    Then we left Q.

    Side Note…….. Who went to the courthouse in GR besides me?

    Anyway, my mentor and I met after the courthouse team meeting to discuss strategy during this downtime. It was at this meeting that we talked more about “the business behind the scenes”. You know, it was like, there is a curtain and on one side of the curtain were those evil Amway people. On the other side was truth, justice and the American way.

    He said that for the past year, behind the scenes, Pastor and Matt were going around to corporations all across the country, getting them in line for the opening of the “Walmart of the Internet”. It made sense that Matt would go to do this, but I wondered out loud about Pastor. I was told who better to travel with, then a man of the cloth. Who better than Pastor could lend instant credibility to what we were doing.

    All the pieces had fallen into place. The “turd” was being recognized across the country as this great builder of communities, a person of influence. He just took on the most well known MLM in the world and he wrote a best seller. He said this new business would pay us on volume, but PV/BV would be gone. There would be Group Volume only and we would get a % of that.

    We were to concentrate on building numbers. Sell the shopping site to get them in, and then “backdoor” the TEAM system of leadership development once they were shoppers. Of course this would have to wait until the legal stuff was done. That would be soon, because he stated it was an open and shut case.

    While we were down, we held meetings in homes and signed folks up on system, all the while doing a whiteboard presentation on the coming “Walmart” business.

    I could go on ……………

  75. Chuckles permalink
    July 24, 2011 10:03 am


    Manipulation IS what really happens to everyone involved.

    As I have mentioned before, see what happens to you and how you are treated by your best buddy upline, when you tell him you are quitting. If you are any type of “leader” with some sort of following, let’s say Turbo 25 or above, you will find out what we have all found out. You will be called the same names that we are called. Quitter, whiner, etc….

    If you are simply a dabbler in the business they couldn’t care less about you. Sure they will pat you on the back and say “Fired Up!” But as far as any type of real friendship or recognition or money, you can forget that. Your only purpose as a dabbler is to line an uplines pocket. You are nothing but a system count to any of the big leaders if you are a dabbler.

  76. Speak Your Truth permalink
    July 24, 2011 11:18 am

    Chuckles~ Great Post! What was the deal of the courthouse gig, LOL I know it was to make it ‘look’ good for them with a cheerleading crowd, but what really happened there and what did they gain by making people go?

  77. Speak Your Truth permalink
    July 24, 2011 12:05 pm

    Whats with the Name?

    Your posts says a lot about your character. You might want to read some more on here. You are obviously ignorant in your understanding of undo-influence, mind control, and brainwashing cults and cult leaders. Maybe you could add some of that to your reading/book list.
    No One forced us to find out the truth about the corruption of the scumbags you follow either; that showed up in the actions when they stole our profit-sharing, destructed our teams, slandered and lied about us, continue to lie, and decieve people, cover-up crime, ripping people off, name calling, and much, much, more. It is a shame you use other real leaders as references to fit the agend of the scam you participate in. You must be happy with that program. That’s NOT what WE signed up for!

    And if you REALLY knew those on here, as you say, then that even confirms you have lack of character. Check out the real leaders that left, you can find it by reading the posts.

    Your attempt at trying to act like you wish everyone well, is pathetic.

  78. Speak Your Truth permalink
    July 24, 2011 12:25 pm

    Whats with the name, is that suppose to be some kind of threat?

  79. john permalink
    July 24, 2011 1:40 pm

    Chuckles, I think your upline fed you a load of crap about Matt Abraham and Pastor Dickie. That never happened. The Team leadership allowed a lot of untrue rumors to circulate to keep people excited and plugged in. These rumors always help with their game to keep people hoping for something that will really work. That something never comes. Life is the next ploy to keep people hanging around for a few more years. When people wake up and realize they have been had again they will be two or three more years down the line and thousands of more dollars lost.

  80. Chuckles permalink
    July 24, 2011 2:42 pm


    You asked me to explain and I did. I know now it was untrue, and you are correct they had to have something to keep everyone together for 6 months. Almost 4yrs into MV and I know of some who are still waiting for the TEAM to “flip the switch.”

    My upline was great at feeding crap. He said what he had to say to keep things going. Things started to unravel for him when he could no longer remember what he said, and who he said it to. Very sad. I understand he is still a follower and has a certain amount of influence in his church. I feel sorry for those folks.

  81. One time Fly that sat at the Team Conference Table permalink
    July 24, 2011 3:32 pm

    Mr. Shoot – I think you are missing what’s going on here. These comments are not as much “perspective” (your words) as much as it is these peoples, and my, real life experiences with the team. I sat there and observed the manipulation of peoples dreams from the home office for years. I watched the transition of material and tools go from TOD>TEAM>the failed original LEADERSHIP>MV….guess what? Orrin and his clowns told the entire organization that the rebranding of tools meant that everyone had to throw out their tools and re pack their “trunks” with new stuff. Makes sense right? New stuff, new message…oh wait, same tired “FIRED UP” message as before. Now what do you think happened with the millions of tools at the home office and out of state warehouse? You would think these tools/CDs/pamplets/books/ would be destroyed. HELL NO!! Mr Greedy decided that it would be ok to sell these to unknowing out of country people being lied to..TOD product being sent and sold as current stuff, but hey, it wasn’t allowed to be sold by US based members. What do you think the current stuff that doesn’t have the L.I.E……cough…L.I.F.E. label on it. OW will have some plan that puts money in HIS pocket when dealing with these tools.

    Shoot, let me tell you, I thought this company was going somewhere, I watched phenomenal growth, in a very short period of time, and then when OW and Volkswagen of of circus clowns got greedy and believed they could do it better the wheels fell of this company and very good people got hurt and lost their businesses. This company is a joke, the leaders are con artists, who live behind a tag line , while trying to make as much money as possible for their own bank accounts.

  82. Speak Your Truth permalink
    July 24, 2011 3:58 pm

    Thanks for sharing that!

    The GREEDY cons knew all those who were dumping and restocking were losing tens’ of thousands, you know those WHO BUILT the scam for the GREEDY TOP to run to the bank with a smile on their face.

    How horribly GREEDY to send the junk out of the states, knowing it was worthless and NOT give one red cent back to those leaders who dumped and replaced. Never ceases to amaze me how greedy and criminal these schmucks are. When will it ever end?

    Wonder when shoot_to_kill will be back to answer the questions? Their track record sucks. LOL

  83. Speak Your Truth permalink
    July 24, 2011 4:03 pm


    Don’t know if you over looked; can you share your story about the court house?

  84. switch permalink
    July 25, 2011 6:28 am

    I see you represent the team pretty damn well. “Shoot-to-kill”????….Are you kidding me?? Talk about a controlling psycho/sociopath in the making.

    Funny how you teambots call it “opinions” first, then it goes to “perspective”. Really?…. Why on earth would soooo many people come forward with their stories?

    When are you going to realize that you’re dealing with the same, regurgitated info with a different label/package???? It’s clearly a transition because Mr. Larseny’s joker juice isn’t working anymore with the illegal claims and testiomonies you love to front. Mabey you should checkout his previous company/juice and why that went under.

    Every bank robber changes masks. You’re obviously all for it but don’t bastardize someone because they’ve woken up and try and shoot some message acrossed like some threat of shooting to kill.

    What a lunatic.

  85. July 25, 2011 6:50 am

    These guys never cease to amaze me.


    Shoot_to_kill is the name you are rolling with? Talk about the mlm mafia, trying to scare and threaten people.

    They are even trying to intimidate us by saying they know who we are based on our comments??


    Then come to my house and confront me, and let’s see how that goes down!

  86. switch permalink
    July 25, 2011 7:55 am

    For me, it was when he had me in his “fancy ride” (alone) and told me that his upline had paid him a “certain percentage” during the “6 month waiting period”. That was of course when we were well into the m.v. business and “moving forward”.

    “The great one” told me….. “I’m not sure what we would’ve done if we weren’t paid during that time, I know we wouldn’t be here today”.

    The truth keeps getting better doesn’t it??? I do have to add though that there was a handshake that night and could’ve sworn knuckles were cracking.

    Maybe he got a mixed message from me…

  87. Shoot_to_kill permalink
    July 25, 2011 8:22 am

    Wow, i guess i should of seen that coming(retaliation). My well wishes are sincere, my name is because i love to bow-hunt(geesh) anyone else like to bow-hunt, it’s not a threat, you guys are high strung. I have been around awhile(2002), didn’t do anything with it, until much later, life is busy, started building in dec of 2005, joined profit sharing in 2006. I saw everything go down. I am not a big leader Turbo 30-45 currently. I have not put my life on hold, i have a successful “s” type business that is moving towards a “b” type business with no plans to sell it. Life is about success right, i’m going to disney this year and leaving for vacation tomorrow for two weeks, with a 3 day stop in Columbus. Life is good.
    I sure do miss some of you guys, especially Mike Foos, that guy was awesome. I will never forget the talk he gave in grand rapids on being a corporate puppet, he is a big reason that i started my own business, instead of working for someone else. He was an amazing communicator. i didn’t see his name in the blog articles that i read. I really miss the Barrett’s too, they were great!

    As for going to your houses, i don’t know any of you personally(just from cd’s and opens), i won’t be coming to your houses, why would I? I’m not looking for a fight. It is just interesting to see the other side of the fence. I watched my TEAM income go from 60,000 annually to next to nothing when we left the mother ship. Guess what it’s back………and it’s growing……… I’m sure that all of you feel that i am dumb, stupid for staying on board, etc…. That’s o.k., my family still loves me, i haven’t made any enemies(except on here), and it’s going to be a great year.

    either way it’s great fun, reading from you guys……..keep your stick on the ice!

  88. Speak Your Truth permalink
    July 25, 2011 8:40 am

    What happen to ‘I love ya man?’ We are ‘making a difference’ in the lives of ‘millions’ and are going to change the ‘world’ one person at a time, to make it a better place?
    We bring people to ‘the truth’??

    Looking like a ‘play /message’ right out of Merchants of Deception.

    Must be that special, amazing ‘l.i.f.e. Godly, Holy,character training;’ the 8 F’s; shooter is getting; to pick a MONIKER like that. More like BULLY TRAINING.Then come act like he/she wishes everyone well; are you freaking kidding?

    Even the ‘story;’ who ever he dreamed up that is getting started from the year 93-95. Geez, lets see I believe ORRIN started in 93, didn’t he? Why would they have quit if they thought it was the BEST THING THAT EVER HAPPENED TO THEM?
    Hmm.. possibly another ‘read between the lines’ message?

    What a coward, must be real ‘bitter’ that soooo many people are telling the truth? I admit it must be pretty taxing on a person’s sanity, if they are sane to begin with, who is scared to death of the ALL of the TRUTH coming out, especially when it will show who you really are to the world.

    Pretty sick & twisted, oh well shows who they really are once again. Everyone has an IP.

  89. Speak Your Truth permalink
    July 25, 2011 8:53 am

    Shoot_to_kill~ Our lives are great too since we left.

    When you know what we know, you shouldn’t be surprised at all about how we would take your moniker. Its interesting you do not address the truths from this site, why not? Is it you ‘choose’ to ignore it because you say you are making 60 grand? Or do you agree with the corruption and truths that are spoke about from people who have been around for years and have seen who the leaders really are?

    It’s pretty hard to take that serious, Making 5 grand a month from the TEAM with less than a turbo 50? That’s pretty hard to believe. Why don’t you share with us how you are getting paid with numbers like that?

    We don’t hate, we just don’t fall for BS.

  90. switch permalink
    July 25, 2011 9:12 am

    if you’re talking about your own business with team, it’s not your OWN business. Cut the crap.

    “You haven’t made any enemies”….. I’d be willing to bet, some may think differently seeing how you’ve been in this, for how long????

    On top of all that, your whole post is about YOU and what your life is really about. From the money to the vacations….that’s all you care about.

    Try looking at the problems at hand here instead of showing us the life full of lies.

  91. Speak Your Truth permalink
    July 25, 2011 11:33 am

    We could be a little ‘hard’ on shoot_to_kill, but you don’t come on a site like this with a name like that, and expect people to react in an ‘I love you man’ fashion or take it lightly.

    Even though I don’t know of anyone being threatened in that way, there have been threats of other kinds and I am hard pressed to believe that someone is making that much money with so little numbers. It is called earning TRUST; something the TEAM doesn’t do. They expect you to trust the leaders without QUESTION, and is a typical sign of cults.

    It is common sense and I know no one who automatically trusts after being through we have.
    Trust is earned over time, not automatically given! 🙂

  92. Speak Your Truth permalink
    July 25, 2011 12:16 pm


    The picture of LIFE you have in this thread has changed from their book cover, where is that one from?

    They lowered the F and changed the colors. Just curious wonder if they realized (Ha after it was brought up here) about it looking like the LIFE magazine and it could bring a copyright suit?

  93. July 25, 2011 12:40 pm

    I made the LIFE logo that is on this post. I wanted to highlight what I think is the true interpretation of L.I.F.E. Remove the 8 F’s and what do you get? A LIE. What do you think?

  94. Concerned Family Member permalink
    July 25, 2011 12:53 pm

    I am not a TEAM or LIFE member, never have been and never will be. I have a family member that has recently been introduced to TEAM and LIFE and I am very concerned for their well being. They are going to the “grand Kick off” conference on the 29th and I have no idea how to help them or get them to stop before they really get started. Any advice?

  95. Shoot_to_kill permalink
    July 25, 2011 1:06 pm

    i am not talking about my OWN business with team. Outside of any dealings with Team or anything else, i have other businesses and profit centers, unrelated to Network Marketing. As far as vacations, i guess when i say vacations and Disney i think of family and time spent with my wife and kids, not Money and Greed. I love vacations don’t you switch, time spent away from the cares of this life. Eating out with some great food and fellowship, time spent just enjoying life.

    speak your truth
    under it all you seem like a decent person, who is very well educated. I’m sorry if i misled you with the comment “it’s back” what i meant by that is profit sharing is back and really starting to grow. I am not making 60,000 annually yet. Good news is the pay structure will be posted on the website on friday and i am sure that a bunch of you will have copies of it, maybe even posted on here.

    As far as addressing issues, well I’m sure there is some truth found here. Just like almost every business that i have ever been employed with had something that i didn’t’ like or even had some executives in it that were crooked. I personally still have faith in Orrin, he is not perfect and i don’t ask him to be. I have never been cheated out of a dollar that i wasn’t willing to give. therefore i will keep moving forward in every area of my life. If i were to try and address here, what good would come of it. the only way i can change and help with the leadership of the team, is too join it. That’s my plan. You guys have a different plan, chase after it, Who knows i might even see you guys storm into a Major function sometime, trying to cause a scene, then ill turn to my wife and say, look there is Amthrax, switch, and speak your truth. They said they were going to do that. Man he has gained some weight, LOL……..

    would you look at that… just look at it…

  96. switch permalink
    July 25, 2011 1:06 pm

    LOL!!!!! AWESOME!

  97. Speak Your Truth permalink
    July 25, 2011 1:44 pm

    Amtharx~ LHOL I LOVE IT! You ought to ‘sell’ that to them! 🙂

  98. Samantha permalink
    July 25, 2011 1:45 pm

    Shoot to kill — you really seem like a decent person. I think the problem is that so many of us on this site were exactly where you are. We wanted so badly to believe that we were part of a worthy cause, that we could make a positive difference in this world, that Orrin, while not perfect, had only the best of motives. And some of us gave up EVERYTHING for the sake of Team.

    Most of us have been heartbroken to find out that we were duped by a master manipulator. Orrin is no better than the slimy tele-evangelist who sells God for money. Orrin has been preying on our deepest desires to be a part of something great and worthwhile, to do something to improve ourselves and society, to feel like we have purpose. While some of what he sells is valuable in and of itself, the teacher is rotten. Just because you don’t have first-hand experience doesn’t mean it’s not true. You can’t honestly say that you can take moral advice from an amoral person.

    Orrin has lied to literally everyone, even himself. I think he has even convinced himself his lies are justified. But this weekend he will get up on stage and preach truth and honor and integrity, all the while lying to everyone. He will lie to the other Policy Council members about their numbers, he will lie about recognition, he will lie about the “new” materials under the L.I.F.E. banner, he will lie to his wife about why certain people are no longer part of the Team, he will lie to everyone about his own personal motives.

    How do I know this? Because he has lied about so many things in the past. And like most habitual liars, he is GOOD at it!

    Go and enjoy your weekend. It will be moving, inspiring, motivating, funny, heartfelt, and emotional. You will be convinced that you are in the right place at the right time with the right people. Your Team business will grow in the coming weeks. But whatever you do, don’t ever depend solely on the Team for your income. Even though you have been told that you are building solid income, never forget that with Team you own nothing, control nothing, have nothing more than your latest profit-sharing payment.

  99. July 25, 2011 1:51 pm

    @Concerned Family Member:

    I would advise three things:

    1. Investigate the real history behind the leaders of TEAM/LIFE. They all started out in Amway, left under less-than-ideal circumstances, talked at-length about creating a Walmart of the Internet, ultimately joined a juice company, and are now trying to sell life coaching materials.
    2. Follow the money. The only constant in every incarnation of TEAM has been the constant pressure on distributors to purchases tools, books and function tickets.
    3. Should your family member decide to get involved, have them keep track — like any business person would do — of their finances each and every month. If $500 is going out the door to TEAM every month and nothing is coming in, we’ve got a problem!

    I hope you can bring your family member to his or her senses before it’s too late.

  100. Speak Your Truth permalink
    July 25, 2011 2:14 pm


    You must understand something, we are not here to ‘convince’ you whether you should remain with the team or follow Orrin, although I will say you are putting yourself in a dangerous position by blindly believing and accepting the way you are. Orrin is a master manipulator, lies, and deceives so he can keep his money, whether you chose to heed to that warning or not is your choice. You only see what is on the surface.

    You fail to see the warning here. We are NOT making this up and you even admit to there is truth? The real problem is, is you are going to bring others in that ‘haven’t a clue’ that 99% of those, will fail and never make a profit., marriges will be taxed, divorces will occur because of it, some will go bankrupt, friendships ruined, time & money (many people go broke) will be lost forever, lies and deceptive techniques are being used, thought reform, mind control, etc.

    This causes tremedous damage to others lives, that is why we are here to some how atone for the wrongs we did, (not fully aware, believing like you) we have experienced first hand up close and directly from Orrin and the PC. And because you will now ‘choose’ after knowing, to bring others in for your benefit, (I know you are convinced otherwise) but you are not considering the lives that will be damaged by your choices, and that my friend is unacceptable to us.

    I am amazed that you have read the comments on here and know there is truth but still remain with your comments about Orrin.

    I challenge you to read Merchants of Deception, look up Lifton’s 8 criteria, M. Singer’s 6 citeria, read the BITE MODEL by Steve Hassan, and check out Rick Ross’s and Pyramid Scheme Alerts site. That should give you enough to start with. You have been in long enough to know but probably never got big enough to believe what we say on here is not a joke and should be taken seriously.

    Happy Reading & Studing 🙂 Let us know what you find out.

  101. Speak Your Truth permalink
    July 25, 2011 2:39 pm

    BTW~ You can download Merchants of Deception right here on Amthrax’s site, FOR FREE! 🙂

    Your apology is accepted, that is the way it was read.

    I will say webelived and others have made some dang good points:)

  102. Chuckles permalink
    July 25, 2011 3:02 pm

    Well said Samantha………..I like the tone of your piece. To me, your comments sound like that of resignation. I can almost picture you waving your hand at them and saying “go find out for yourself what we already know.”


    As for myself I think you are a fraud. You are a plant from the “turd” to see what you can stir up. You still have faith in him. Good for you. Some Germans had faith in Hitler also. You see people like that “turd” prey on the weak.

    A couple of years ago there was a group of TEAM people that went to some sort of “Walmart of the Internet” business. Your leader was constantly whining about these people stealing his downline. Hello!!?? Since when, in a free market society, is it off limits for one company to not “recruit” the best of another company. He would call the “leaders” of the movement and tell them to stop taking people from his business.

    Does that sound like a leader to you? If his business was that great, and it was so wonderful being a part of TEAM, and he is the “leader” he claims to be, why wouldn’t he just ignore the people leaving and continue to do his thing.

    The fact is this……he is a person who has very little emotional intelligence, and he has people like you fooled.

  103. No Team For Me permalink
    July 25, 2011 4:50 pm

    Webelieved – I have a copy of the Director’s Agreement Contract from 2009.

    I agree with you. I think a lawsuit is needed to stop the thousands of innocent people who are losing thousands of dollars a year on this deceit.

  104. Dorothy permalink
    July 25, 2011 4:56 pm

    This commenter requested that her comments be removed from this site.

  105. john permalink
    July 25, 2011 6:47 pm

    Chuckles, you are right. It is shameful for Team leaders to whine that people from other MlM’s have tried to recruit their members. What a crock! Orrin Woodward led a massive campaign to steal people away from Amway and smeared them all over the internet with blogs that he instigated all the while denying this under oath. He is a compulsive liar. If the Team business is so good it should stand on its own and no one should fear that someone else might try to get some of their team into a different business. If it is so good they have nothing to fear. But the truth is the Team business is miserable opportunity based on false hype and misrepresentation. When people wake up after spending thousands of dollars and a huge hunk of their life wasted on this lie they feel like they were cheated, scammed, and misled. It’s about time that good people start shouting out and letting people know that this has gone on far too long all the while the top dogs in the litter pen knew what they were doing. There is no exscuse for any of them. The longer any of them do this shame on them all. Now they roll out LIFE. This is the next piece of crap that will be shoved down the throats of the gullible masses that trust these deceivers. Keep up the good work you are doing along with all the others that are speaking out. I truly feel sorry for those people who actually believe and trust the Team leaders. They will sooner or later come to know what we all have come to know.

  106. Speak Your Truth permalink
    July 25, 2011 7:45 pm

    No Team For Me~

    That is awesome, hope you are sending a copy into Amthrax!
    Seems like this blog is heating up. No surprise, more evidence that Orrin is a hypocrite.
    Orrin defintely OWES a lot of us a whole lot of money.

  107. john permalink
    July 25, 2011 8:44 pm

    More from Athena Dean. Thank God for this courageous lady who wrote All That Glitters Is Not God, and Consumed by Success. Order these books and pass them on to those still trapped in this idlolatrous web of deceit.

    “The truth is, I taught other believers to live a life of idolatry. I taught other Christians to love the product and the opportunity with all their hearts, minds, souls, and strength–not the Lord their God, as the Scripture commands.!” Orrin, Chris, Tim, and company you will answer to God for your deceptions.

    ” Allure: because of the business, you can become financially independent and have freedom. You will have to work only five years or so and never have to work again. The residual income will come in for life!

    Hook: Once you swallow that lure you will be hooked. those who make the big money in MLM must build their downlines over and over again. You will hve to keep greasing the wheels indefinately. You will never be able to quit. they know it. I know it. Now you know it too. It doesn’t matter what the product is, in MLM there’s no serious income to be made from merely selling the product. You must always be looking for someone else to sell the product, who will be on the prowl for someone else to sell the product, and so on down the line.

    Can a fisherman throw out his lines and leave them unattended? Cast out his net and never gather it in again? Neither can the upline manager, director, distributor, or consultant. To be and stay upline means you will have to build and constantly rebuild your downline–forever. Why? Because of the incredible turnover that is a fact in MLM. People realize they aren’t making money, so they quit. You have to keep replacing the ones who leave with new ones who don’t know any better. Its a vicious cylcle that never ends.

    With all three MLM’s I’ve been successfully involded in, I found that the allure of residual income is a lie.”

    Why do Team leaders sell the dream so hard? The dream is the hook. But they know it does not work. Orrin, Chris and Tim and their buddies knew for years it did not work. But they still sold the dream. This is their shame. They justified their deception by saying they were helping people. Well, Samantha, fly on the wall, and others on here are telling us the truth that for all the ones supposedly being helped thousands were being bled of time, money, and labors to keep the big dogs well fed at the top. I wish I could feel some sympathy for these team leaders but I can’t. They are all guilty of unspeakable shame. I applaud all of you who are writing on this blog for speaking the truth.

  108. Speak Your Truth permalink
    July 25, 2011 10:00 pm

    Thanks again for bringing more from the book, really appreciate that. I have 3 days left of school then will be done and can get the book to read, so again thanks for the appetizer.

    I am also very thankful for courageous people like Athena, Eric S., JS, all the rest. Especially AMTHRAX, and ALL of you for being here to support each other and have the guts to stand up to the abuses and speak the truth. Sincerely, Thanks.

    I am assuming ‘the truth’, ‘allure’, hook’ and the ‘fisherman’ paragraphs are all from the book? Was Athena involved in 3 MLM’s or are you speaking from your experience?

    So true they are all the same. Idolatry for sure, build and replace. Worshiping power & money over God. Very dangerous, I am so glad to be free, from all the lies, deception, and corruption and away from the narcissistic leaders that breed, greed!

    You are right Orrin, Chris, Tim, George, and the rest have always know it doesn’t work, but it’s like an addiction for them, they crave the Power & Money. You can’t claim to be a ‘numbers guy’ who has ‘bench marking studies’ have access to cross-line Diamond personal business numbers information and be oblivious to it the failure. What con artist. They bank on people being brainwashed and will continue to try and change people’s belief systems. All may not agree but I believe it is a cult through and through.

    Orrin is a compulsive liar, everyone knows it, it showed up in the law suit, and am sure there is much more to come out, that will prove once again how sick and what a hypocrite and in my opinion, downright evil in his deeds.

    Glad to see new people are coming on here like Samantha and am sure when others are burnt out after the ‘major lies’ function wears off, and others wake up see, nothing is different, with their new/old life training there were be more come.

    I agree they won’t get away with it forever. The day that Justice is served will be the day of celebration.

  109. Run Daily permalink
    July 25, 2011 10:40 pm

    Man, do all you guys really have nothing better to do then criticize every little thing that goes down in the Net work marketing rule. It seems like LIFE has some good potential why cant yall’ just leave it like that?!

  110. Run Daily permalink
    July 25, 2011 10:46 pm

    when i say “Net work marketing rule” i simply mean in order for any one to succeed in this type of any industry they must first be willing to invest some time and money in order to have any sort of return. LIFE seems like something that people would be successfully able to market.

  111. Chuckles permalink
    July 26, 2011 5:14 am


    We have been down this road with this company many times. What you call “Good potential” is nothing more than stolen material from true leadership development guru’s that the leaders of TEAM repackage and spin to fit their agenda.

    Most of what they sell to you folks is available for free if you search online. When you do have to pay, you pay considerably less than full retail.

    You spout the company line quite well, just like we all did when we followed blindly. One day after spending thousands of dollars and being frustrated because you will be getting nowhere in your business financially, you will understand what we are doing here.

    I just renewed my Success magazine subscription. In it I find more useful info that I can apply in my businesses today than all the “Fired Ups” that the TEAM provides. I get a magazine loaded with insights from recognized leaders in the industry AND a CD. This comes once a month right to my door. Best of all my total outlay ……..$2/month. This includes all the FREE eZines that come to my inbox on a daily basis.

    You run along now, your upline is calling.

  112. switch permalink
    July 26, 2011 5:46 am

    “Good potential”, as far as what? Lying? Why is it for all that bow down to this can’t see what has happened even after so many people have come forward? Have you read other people’s stories, here? Why should we give our trust back to these people who took us for a ride? I think we have every right to speak out.

  113. switch permalink
    July 26, 2011 6:04 am

    shooter says-
    “As far as vacations, i guess when i say vacations and Disney i think of family and time spent with my wife and kids, not Money and Greed. I love vacations don’t you switch, time spent away from the cares of this life. Eating out with some great food and fellowship, time spent just enjoying life.”

    You’re damn right, I like vacations…. I just don’t like them under other people’s hard earned cash/time and on top of that, lying about it to get there. Don’t tell me that it never happened because it did right over my diningroom table and livingroom.

    Enjoying time with my family and friends is exactly what I’ll be doing this weekend. What will you be doing???? I can tell you one thing, I won’t be GLUED to some stage where they pretend to love this fraudulent fruit punch while they “role out this new system for a dream they like to sell” called LIFE. And at the same time you have the “newbie” doing some inspirational rain dance around a bottle of “ACTIVE” up in the hotel rooms because he hasn’t got the slightest clue what’s going on because he’s been fed a line of bullshit!

    Now everyone’s considered these walking “Life coaches” and telling them how to run their lives!!!???? Are you f’ing kidding me? Oh….I can’t wait to see a life coach come walking up my driveway.

    By all means, you’re more than welcome but I can tell you one thing….what you get in return won’t exactly be a tune of “kumbaya”.

    Have a nice day….oh yeah and “God bless”.

  114. I Quit ( and glad I Did) permalink
    July 26, 2011 6:52 am

    All I can say is wow. I’ve been reading the thread for days, just digesting. I never got past RT level. And even that was a barely. Build- replace. Build- replace. ETC ETC ETC ETC… You know the deal. So I wasn’t privvy to a lot of the dealings that have been laid out in this thread. I could never get myself to totally sell out to the system. Believe me I tried and tried. 10 plus years and it just didn’t feel right. I always thought it was my choleric, bullheaded tendencies. That may have been part of it but I truly feel that my gut feeling was a gift from above that kept us from being royally screwed. We were only slightly screwed and that hurt enough – I can’t imagine how it must have been for some of you who lost a hell of a lot more. I just thank God we’re out. Hopefully we can prevent some others from experiencing the crap we all did. THE MORE I LEARN ABOUT THESE SO CALLED LEADERS THE MORE SICKENING IT GETS. Man if you’re a prospect researching the Team, do yourself a favor and ask why so many BIG, SUCCESSFUL, former leaders in this so called business are gone. The true answers will give you all you need to make an informed decision.

  115. July 26, 2011 7:06 am

    Love all the comments I’ve been reading on here lately! This thread is “digging depth”! LOL … sorry I couldn’t resist!

    Isn’t it funny how a new poster comes on to fight the good fight, and defend the name of Team….and gets blown out of the water in about 2.3 seconds! I’m with Webelieved! Pass the popcorn….this is entertainment!

  116. john permalink
    July 26, 2011 8:01 am

    Speak Your Truth, the comments were from Athena’s book. But they are the experience of all of us who worked hard to build the business over the years. Sometimes it takes a lot before people wake up and realize how badly they have been misled and how badly they are misleading others. What people like run and other Team supporters don’t realize is the deep remorse and sorrow that we feel for being a part of such a wicked lie. When the leadership at the top is corrupt as Samantha and others have pointed out it is impossible to continue to follow them. The true nature of a skunk cannot be hid forever. Sooner or later the stench of their character and deceptions is obvious to all.

  117. July 26, 2011 8:15 am

    George Guzzardo has posted his thoughts from the Fresno Leadership Convention. Reading it, I fail to see what made it a history-making event. George could not end a post without promoting the Ohio function as well. All I got out of his description was more ways to pay TEAM:

    Those in attendance learned about the LIFE products, web site design, LIFE Levels, Mona Vie’s exclusive partnership as the fitness F, and much more.

    LIFE Products = give money to TEAM
    web site design = give more money to TEAM
    LIFE Levels = buy your way to greater recognition
    MonaVie = $120/month out of your pocket
    and more = more ways we will take your money

  118. switch permalink
    July 26, 2011 9:14 am

    mmmmm webelieved,….. you mind passin’ that popcorn this way, please???? Smells waaaay to good to pass up!

  119. Speak Your Truth permalink
    July 26, 2011 10:55 am

    thRun Daily~

    You say: “when i say “Net work marketing rule” i simply mean in order for any one to succeed in this type of any industry they must first be willing to invest some time and money in order to have any sort of return. LIFE seems like something that people would be successfully able to market.”

    ‘Net work marking rule?’ LHOL. You must be a newbie.

    Here’s some differences between network conning, I mean marketing, and making an HONEST living in a successful market.

    In network scaming, it will consume 24/7, 365 days per year and 99% of you will NEVER make a profit and will only LOSE MONEY, where as in earning an HONEST living or own a real business, maybe working 9 hrs. per day you WILL be paid an hourly or salary, insurance benefits, possibly 401K etc.

    BIG DIFFERENCE, no legitimate comparison.

    You are talking to the WRONG group of people about any lack of in TIME & MONEY investment in the TEAM/ Pyramid Scam. That statement is as old as time and most of us gave it ALL up to the point of physical/ illness and finacial exhaustion, for YEARS!

    Now here is the REAL DIFFERENCE. and ‘network marketing ’ RULES;( there are NONE, anything goes, you have to deceive, lie, coerce, sell your soul, for the ILLUSION you will be rich.

    YOU control NOTHING, that is an ILLUSION, except draining your bank account. You are being conned. ORRIN controls everything, your time, money, even your thoughts and beliefs, what you wear, when to go on vacation (only for team earned),what you should or shouldn’t do for entertainment, how to be untrue to yourself, when to have a ‘date night w/ spouse’, how much time you get with your kids, who you can talk and cannot talk to, idol worshipping,favoritism, lie to yourself and others, get to have your mind messed with, double messages, lies, and deceit, etc. etc.. and THEN you get to compete with your upline, crossline, and downline for your neighbors, co-workers, prospects, to be in ‘your’ team or ‘your’ customers; well we know there is NO REAL customers but it sounds good anyway at least it ‘appears’ to the FTC you are legit. THOSE are the RULES of the LIFE mis-leaders.

    You do have a job, don’t you ‘run daily’ or how is it you throw your money away ‘invest’ in the life training? Do those ‘RULES’ above even remotely sound like a ‘real investment of time & money in any successful market?’ Well, if you want to be a career or professional criminal, and parasite marketer, that is what you will follow with your ‘good potentional.’

    And FROM EXPERIENCE, we know that people ‘steal & coerce’ (those learned by watching, modeling, Orrin do this, the master cheater) others into their business that had already been contacted by or even been in someone else’s business prior, and ‘sponsored’ them into their ‘new’ business anyway because they are desperate!

    So therefore, they will stoop to stealing others. It is not uncommon! Do you see this as a ‘rule’ in any legitimate market that is successful? NO they would be in jail or have a major lawsuit.

    When your mis-leader life liar Orrin, raided the downline out of Amway, for his and a few ‘favorites’ gain, to take them to the Wal-Mart of the Internet, it was then that they proved, showed their desperation and TRUE character and ‘applied the NO RULES, ANTHING GOES.’

    I could go on forever about the Silent RULES of Orrin uses but his play book is the 48 Laws of Power’ and how they differ from the legitimate real world market, but your mind might explode with too much truth all at once.

    BTW~ ‘run daily’ we have plenty of things to do, but apparently our job isn’t finished here either, you have proven that!

    There isn’t a chance for anyone to bring the BS, with all of YOUR comments! LHOL 🙂

  120. Speak Your Truth permalink
    July 26, 2011 11:28 am


    Agreed! That is what they don’t understand is the deep pain we have all suffered and are trying to help them prevent.

    It takes time to heal, and I think most who come out don’t realize the magnitude of the damage to your mind, body, and soul, until you regain your critical thinking and are allowed time to sort things out. It feels voluntary while your in it but when you leave and understand what, how and why, it no lnoger controls you and you realize the thought reform used.

    This is a quote I read recently that hit home; “Sometimes right back where you started from is right where you belong.”

    If I could do it all differently,(never get started 🙂 ) but that is impossible so alls we can do is go from here and I know that where we were before we ‘got started’ with our beliefs in truth,God, and doing the right thing, is right where we belong. Now it is hold strong to the right things and those whom you most value give all of yourself too. We all know that there is ‘no majic’ in anything to ‘bring riches’, if it sounds to good to be true, then it IS.

    Thx again, looking forward to reading the book. 🙂

  121. Speak Your Truth permalink
    July 26, 2011 11:30 am

    Amthrax & webelieved~
    Dead on! Switch you kill me! LHOL 🙂

  122. switch permalink
    July 26, 2011 11:50 am

    Feels good to hop that fence, doesn’t it Speak?

    I can tell you one thing, I didn’t exactly decide to go over it…..I busted my way through it!

    oops….sorry about that, team.

  123. Speak Your Truth permalink
    July 26, 2011 12:17 pm

    Switch~ You are right! 🙂

    Chuckles or anyone else who experienced financial ‘advice’ about mutual funds & insurance; there is a commenter “Seeking Info” under EX-TEAM, that if I remember right you and others got the ‘financial advise’ (from Bernie’s play book on ‘investments’) your upline’s from one of your post, or whoever has.

    To; SEEKING INFOR my answer would be, regardless of the ‘investment specifics’; Orrin’s advice would be ‘cash’ it all in and ‘invest’ in ME ( he would say your business, but there is no such thing) is the basic financial advise we got. I don’t want that person to be overlooked, thx to who ever can respond. I will paste this over there but I thing they are looking for specifics.

  124. Samantha permalink
    July 26, 2011 12:30 pm

    Speak Your Truth–once again you’ve hit the nail on the head. Not so very long ago, I would have dismissed every anti-Team person on this site as people who just wouldn’t do what it takes. Now many of us know differently.

    There was a time when we all believed we were selling the Walmart of the internet AND we were reforming the industry of network marketing–the Team was going to be different from all others and do things right! It was an easy sell, and our numbers exploded.

    Now many of us have figured out that somewhere along the line, Orrin sold out his ideals and became the very type of person we had all been working against. The problem is that he never told us. When hubby and I realized that in order to maintain (forget grow) our Team business, we were going to have to lie, we were done. No way are we going to tell someone that this is a 2-5 year plan, that you are building your own business, or that you are building passive, residual income. This is the WORST type of business as far as stability and dependability. You own NOTHING!

    We first fought that battle with Amway. When you register with Amway, you are called an Independent Business Owner. (Implication that you own a business?) However, when we were in court with their scummy attorneys, we were shown where the IBO contract clearly states that we didn’t even own the right to use the phone numbers of our friends and family without Amway’s permission!

    MonaVie’s contract doesn’t have that clause, but they do have a clause stating that they can change the deal at any time and for any reason and without recourse. I do not have a copy of the Team contract, and without that, their contract says whatever they want it to say on any given day.

    As for the pain we all have suffered, let me just say that I sobbed the day that I learned my heros were the worst kind of liars and manipulators. I was sad for months! But now I am just angry. Angry mostly at what these people have done to those they used to call their best friends. They have lied about and slandered people who were their closest confidants, people who defended them and protected them. Oh, I could just …

    My absolute favorite thing about not being part of Team? Meeting new people and just getting to know them without any agenda. I no longer have to think, “How can I get them in my business?”

  125. I Quit ( and glad I Did) permalink
    July 26, 2011 1:00 pm

    Amen, Samantha. Its great to just talk to people for the sake of talking. No ulterior motive.

  126. Speak Your Truth permalink
    July 26, 2011 1:03 pm

    Thanks for sharing and coming here, I do feel your pain and especially your anger and we can say we understand each other because we all stood in the same place to some degree.

    You have a lot to bring to the table so to speak, and while this is a purging/ healing process for us all, there will be others who see the truth. A WIN/WIN 🙂

    I did NOT know that was in the ‘contract’ because 99.99999% of the people never read or read it, we were no different. We ( mostly my spouse) trusted Orrin unconditonally to a fault, obviously. I have also heard but didn’t confirm, don’t really care, but MV has an ‘arbitration process’; you know the process Orrin called a ‘habitual abuse’ with Amway. Such a hypocrite.

    I will say that I never fully trusted Orrin,he lied to me from the get-go (little white lie to him but not to me) but that was enough to keep my senses aware for the most part. I did fully trust Laurie and our PC for a long time, until the ugly (subtle) controlling of Laurie started to come out, then my senses became more keen. Many stories I could tell that would confirm the ‘control issues’ and that started to reveal itself about 5 years prior to the ‘exodus.’ I was still extremely close to PC but that ended and was the grand finaly for us when the destruction, theft, and bold-faced lies, slandering and then stealing our profit-sharing, that happened to our teams during and after the registration.

    Once that truth of their GREEDY, POWER HUNGERY, EGO’s showed up it was ALL OVER but the tears and rage, now it is getting better, personally for me. 🙂

    I couldn’t agree more on the ‘shutting out’ the constant thoughts of ‘contacting’ every person that crossed my path. It took a good solid 2 years to be able to shut those thoughts off. I really had to battle with it then the triggers went away.

    I really appreciate all that you have shared, and know how scary it is but that is what sick people pray on is fear, but it does the heart good to flush it and we will be here for you. Welcome to the healing process! 🙂

  127. July 26, 2011 1:10 pm

    Is there any contract that rank-and-file TEAM distributors need to sign when joining up with TEAM? I know there’s that contract that leaders had to sign in order to get tool money.

    With LIFE, people will have to sign something in order to make profits off of selling LIFE materials. I wonder what clauses might be in this document to cause concern for future ex-TEAM members (i.e. you cannot criticize the Supreme TEAM/LIFE Leader or some other similar drivel).

  128. Speak Your Truth permalink
    July 26, 2011 1:13 pm

    I did forget the most important thing in their ‘financial advise’ is to:

    “PUT ALL YOUR EGGS IN ONE BASKET” (then watch them steal it)

    BIGGEST MISTAKE EVER, and had to learn that lesson the hard way!

  129. switch permalink
    July 26, 2011 1:19 pm

    Samatha says-

    “My absolute favorite thing about not being part of Team? Meeting new people and just getting to know them without any agenda. I no longer have to think, “How can I get them in my business?””

    Bingo. Not everything in life is about the “biz”. It’s absolutely assinine to think that everywhere they go, they’re constantly looking for people. Why don’t they look at that for a minute….how much time do they waste in trying to approach or find that next person in their so called “FREEDOM”? A few hours a night???….BULL$HIT! The thought process/mentality is 24/7 no matter where they go.

  130. Samantha permalink
    July 26, 2011 1:24 pm

    Amthrax, you laugh but I do remember there was a clause in the Team Director’s contract about criticizing Team. Orrin said there was no way someone was going to be able to criticize Team and get paid by Team at the same time.

  131. john permalink
    July 26, 2011 1:59 pm

    Some of you mention Laurie Woodward. She and the so called daimond ladies are control freaks that love the way other shallow ladies love to dote on them and follow them around like they are rock stars. These ladies for the most part are shallow, self centerred, spoiled, and narcissitic people. They are addicted to the life style that the Team scam has givien them. The way to get close to these women is to simply flatter them and and tell them how great they are! Just follow them around and hang on every word they utter and you might be able to break into their click. The really disgusting thing is that these women have very little worth listening to. What makes these ladies so special? What real talents and accomplishlments do any of them have? O, I forgot, they are married to the greatest con artists of our day.Well great for them.The further I get away from Team the cleaner I feel. It will take years to get the stench of the skunk out of my system. One time fly on the wall had the right idea…fly away from that bunch.

  132. Speak Your Truth permalink
    July 26, 2011 2:23 pm

    Following the rest of the ‘industry’, no speak, no negative truth! Thought they believed in FREEDOM OF SPEECH and the countries founding principles? Another joke.

    John~ You are soooo right. It is a shame and discusting they live on ‘flattery.’ That is their
    reward or punishment ‘system.’

  133. One time Fly that sat at the Team Conference Table permalink
    July 26, 2011 2:44 pm

    John, treat em like rock stars….spot one brother! The PC and their Wives…because you know only the men can be leaders the women must be subservient, have to continue to come up with ideas to keep the money flowing in to continue to live the “job optional” lifestye.

    How bout the time the Head Circus Clown bought a new Mercedes and called the home office and told them to send someone to his house to put his TEAM1 plate on the car. (he did come out to supervise)

    That’s a leader for you

  134. One time Fly that sat at the Team Conference Table permalink
    July 26, 2011 2:50 pm

    we…I was told that he did provide the person sent over with a can of XS……..

  135. Speak Your Truth permalink
    July 26, 2011 4:11 pm

    webeleived~ I couldn’t agree more about all you said, the little things is life etc. and laughed at the rest!! It is in life, those things that are free are the most valuable and bring value and happiness. 🙂 Loving our kids, family, ourselves,praying, stopping to smell the roses, reading books, taking a walk,enjoy sharing with a true friend, talking and listening to our spouses, etc, etc….

    Fly~ That is such an arrogant move. He believes he is BIGGER than LIFE itself and will apparently do anything to boost his own EGO.

    Wonder how proud and arrogant he is when he reads Amthrax blog daily and finds out exactly what others think and know about him and their wives, not just on here but even those still participating and going broke. What do they do with their shame, oh, I know they count their money, just like a drug addict returns to drugs or a dog returns to its vomit.

  136. Speak Your Truth permalink
    July 26, 2011 6:13 pm


    The contract that you have is that the ‘current’ directors one or the 20 + pager we signed at Go-Diamond that we weren’t allowed to read or get a copy of? You might also relate, maybe not; to the quarterly ‘special’ papers that were sent. No doubt Orrin has known FOR YEARS about his plans he carried out. I don’t know how he or Laurie live with his/their lies and betrayal of their ‘supposed’ best friends. It is Money & Power, period. Just wish it would have happened waaaayyyyy sooner. That’s ok though because what does go around, certainly comes back around and usually with much more force.

  137. Arturo permalink
    July 26, 2011 6:25 pm

    Fly, that is unbelievable but so true about Orrin. Not only does this scam pay for his lifestyle but he uses all his so called friends as free slaves for him. Every group used to get tagged to drive him to the airport or pick him up. This was called mentorship time but it really was a way for that cheap ass to get a free ride. Stories abound about his abuse of baby sitters, house keepers and lawn help who were on his team. As a side note he has no real friends that he does not pay. He is deficient in the department of making and keeping the real way. He has serious issues. His Team friends are either trying to get to profit sharing or the few on it.

  138. kath permalink
    July 26, 2011 8:04 pm

    it’s been 3 years since i left but i still have that nasty taste in the mouth called TEAM. I was stupid enough to believe that this was the right and ethical way to do business so i spent three whole years building a team for myself and for them. i came with them wholeheartedly through Q and to MV. I hung on to every word of my upline. i edified them to high heaven. i went into every friend and family’s living room. Now I feel so embarassed to have done all that. I got into so much debt trying to be on autoship. in the end when i finally pulled the plug, i owed about 2,500 dollars and i had to pay it all out with my savings. i was almost wiped out not only financially but wiped out of trust from those people i called my best friends. it even wiped out my belief in myself that i can really be in business and profit.
    i kinda smelled the stench when i noticed that they continuously made it harder and harder to get into the “exclusive meetings” after the monthly conferences. “oh, you have to be on autoship.” “oh you have to be on the leadership package.” at first i was doing fine, but then i suddenly felt i couldnt catch up. the only way to catch up is to buy more; which my senses kicked in and i realized that i had thrown all caution to the wind. i am now in debt. i stopped every transaction every meeting from then on.when i see my so called “friends” on facebook, i just take pity.
    today, i have more friends, more time for myself, my family and my partner. I love that i can make friends without a hidden agenda. and i am now again pursuing business. this time i am evaluating what i really love doing (not just passing on the juice or the walmart of the internet that i couldnt care less about) and going to school to learn the nature of business. i love reading this site and all your comments because i know that i am not alone. it so great to not waste an afternoon in a stadium or convention center, instead, enjoy the sun. =)

  139. July 26, 2011 8:29 pm

    @kath – welcome to the conversation. How did you come across this blog since it has been over three years since you left?

  140. No Team For Me permalink
    July 26, 2011 9:56 pm

    2009 Team Contract, Section 8.4 – “…Director acknowledges that he, she, or it has been provided with ample opportunity to have this Agreement, and this provision in particular, reviewed with counsel of his, her or its choice.”

    Section 21.1 “PLEASE READ THIS AGREEMENT CAREFULLY BEFORE YOU SIGN IT. Before you sign this Agreement, you may ask questions of any authorized representative of Team or you may also have your attorney or legal counsel review it. YOUR SIGNATURE REPRESENTS AND AFFIRMS THAT YOU UNDERSTAND AND AGREE TO BE BOUND BY EVERY TERM OF THIS AGREEMENT.”

    Capitalization is exactly as written in the agreement. How many people were pressured into signing this without really reading it. With all the pressure, can you imagine anyone actually saying “I need to check with an attorney”?

    They really covered themselves well with the language. But as all of us know. If anyone would have asked to have an attorney review it, they would have basically been cut off as being disloyal to the Team.

  141. Speak Your Truth permalink
    July 26, 2011 10:45 pm

    No Team For Me~ Spot on with the ‘covering’ themselves they are masters and how many will really ask to take it to their attorneys?

    Does everyone get a copy to take to their attorney before they have to sign it and turn it in and is that how you got it?

    And if they don’t then this is BS= “ample opprotunity to have this agreement.”

    Gotta love the “you may ask questions of any authorized representative of team”
    Who is authorized? LOL

    I would bet the ‘authorized mis-leaders’ treat it like ALL other contracts, documents, and the IDS, with brushing it off as; it is a technicality and telling them ‘don’t worry know one reads it.’ Just sign it you can make A LOT OF MONEY, can’t wait for you to bring your spouse home!
    Distract and bring it around to the ‘false hope of the dream/nightmare.

    Now,I know now for sure they are reading AMTHRAX SITE, LHOL 🙂

  142. Speak Your Truth permalink
    July 26, 2011 10:46 pm

    BTW~ Thanks 🙂

  143. Speak Your Truth permalink
    July 26, 2011 11:54 pm

    Welome! Glad to see you are here. Don’t be too hard on yourself, this business is designed for most to fail, you are not stupid for falling for it, it is a very well, planned out scam to play on your emotions, take your money and distract you from seeing the real facts. I think you might be interested in reading Steve Hassan book Combating Mind Control, his website is

    Your story is a sad one to read and unfortunately we have all experienced the aftermath of some excruciating guilt. You are not alone and it is not your fault, sounds like you did everything they told you, poured your heart and soul into it to go into debt. Realize this; it is designed to FAIL. 99% of the people end up just like you and all of us here. We have all experienced the Financial, spiritual, emotional, damages and all sorts of junk to deal with. Just know you are not alone and we are all here to support each other. Good luck and hope you continue to come back. 🙂

  144. kath permalink
    July 27, 2011 8:03 am

    thanks guys. I have been living my life normally for the past three years until last week i received a call from an old family friend (who got involved in TEAM the same time I did) and invited me to a birthday party. All of the past came back and I started to research and once and for all and deal with my pain and shame. I came across this site and found that there are a lot of people like me who got duped. i just want to be prepared of what they’re going to sell me next. i didnt say no to the invitation because she’s an old friend. but i do want to be prepared. tell you how it goes!!

  145. switch permalink
    July 27, 2011 8:30 am

    That’s right kath, keep your head up.

    I have to say, Merchants of Deception by Eric Scheibeler is by far one of the best books I’ve come acrossed in a long time.

    Maybe you should buy her a copy for her birthday and slip it on her counter when she’s not looking for a surprise gift? OR heck, download it for free, print it out, put it in a folder and slip it on her counter so it’s not so noticable?

    You could leave a note on it that said, “I read your books, now you can read mine….LUV YOU TOO BUDDY!”

  146. One time Fly that sat at the Team Conference Table permalink
    July 27, 2011 8:39 am

    If I could add to a book to give your friend it would be “How The Mighty Fall”

    It’s a follow up to Built To Last and Good To Great……a friend of mine who worked at Team said that the Former CEO selected that for either the Round Table members or PC to read and OW got pissed after reading it…seems like the former CEO knew where the company was headed!!

  147. Samantha permalink
    July 27, 2011 9:15 am

    Okay Fly, now THAT is funny! I’m going to get that book asap.

  148. One time Fly that sat at the Team Conference Table permalink
    July 27, 2011 9:29 am

    Samantha – when you read it you will sit there and shake your head. It reads just like a timeline of the rise and fall of TEAM….

  149. Speak Your Truth permalink
    July 27, 2011 11:05 am

    Thx Fly another book to add to the list! Yes! We can start our own book club, LOL 🙂

  150. john permalink
    July 27, 2011 1:19 pm

    Glad to see Kath on here. I am enjoying the comments of all of you. I can’t wait to read the book that Fly suggested. Yes, we have a book club going here. At least we can buy it if we want and don’t have to buy our way onto this site. How can we spread this message to more people who need to hear the truth about these scam artists?

  151. Speak Your Truth permalink
    July 27, 2011 2:57 pm

    I am with you on ‘each one reach one’ LOL btw, that came from Lennon Ledbedder (or however you spell it), not the master deceiver himself although they like to take credit for EVERYTHING, just like PDCA (the DEMMING CYCLE) NOT the orrin cycle. He is such a narcissistic, evil person, in by opinion.

    You have had some pretty amazing post lately too!

    No doubt we need to reach as many as we can but I have been pretty impressed the last week at how many NEW people have came!!” 🙂

    I also love the book recommendations, I have one last assigntment today, then I am DONE!!!
    Then I can start hammering through these books.

    There was a commenter ‘Me’ that recommended a book I read, wow, it was called ” People of the Lie.” Holy crap, I have forgotten half of it and should get it from the library again but scary.

  152. I Quit ( and glad I Did) permalink
    July 28, 2011 5:13 am

    Can we please come up with a PV/BV system for the books? After all, it would be “compassionate capitalism” at its finest. ‘God wants you to be rich” right? Perhaps we can pick up some tips on “how to have power and confidence in dealing with people”. It’ll be great!! Then we’ll all have “personality plus” learn “how to be rich”!! Who’s with me? I’ll be supreme leader. Who wants to be my faithful sidekick? I’ll book the room for Tues. nite. Who’s picking me up? Lets do an early dinner, its on you.

  153. Speak Your Truth permalink
    July 28, 2011 6:41 am

    IQ~ I’m in! I will get someone to pick me up, to pick you up, so dinner is on them! LHOL

  154. One time Fly that sat at the Team Conference Table permalink
    July 28, 2011 8:09 am


  155. switch permalink
    July 28, 2011 9:11 am

    What time did you want me to swing by and pick you up???

  156. Speak Your Truth permalink
    July 28, 2011 10:12 am

    Switch Saves the Day! 🙂

  157. Steve permalink
    July 28, 2011 6:32 pm

    Wait Wait Wait can Stevie come out and play? How about if I kick in a months worth of Tues. open fees towards your dinner, and I’ll even be generous. I’ll give you five Tues. for that month, so that would be $25.00. Oh shoot my wife went to Tues. also so thats $50.00. Darn it I just screwed myself. Oh well, it’s not that I haven’t been screwed before. Just maybe…. I can get someone else to pay for the gas. Lol

  158. They're Watching Us permalink
    July 28, 2011 6:53 pm

    Just reading Pastor Dickie’s blog and he’s only updated it like twice since April and both were in the past week and both were about…. (drum roll please)…..choosing your friends wisely and carnal Christians. 🙂 I wonder if he’s speaking from personal experience?! 🙂

    This is part of his quote:
    “I have known professing Christians who were masters of deception and manipulation. They could lie without conscience, deceive without blinking an eye, were able to quote Scripture to suit their purposes, and could put on the robes of an angel.

    The Church of Jesus Christ should not be surprised that there are those in her midst that have such powers to mislead. Satan himself can transform himself into an angel of light.

    What the church needs today is for wise and godly leaders who have wisdom to see through the phoniness of false prophets and wolves in sheep’s clothing.”

    I wonder if he’s referring to anyone in particular….. 😉

  159. Speak Your Truth permalink
    July 28, 2011 8:42 pm

    They’re Watching Us~ Hmmm……? Great question? I so read his blog. Thanks! 🙂

  160. Speak Your Truth permalink
    July 28, 2011 8:43 pm

    Steve~ Lhol!

  161. Speak Your Truth permalink
    July 29, 2011 1:09 am

    FLY~ I started reading; “How The Mighty Fall!” Amazing! Thanks. 🙂

    I have only gotten to the 3rd chapter and if I didn’t know better I would have thought Jim Collins had the data on our experiences!!!!

    “It’s a bit like studying train wrecks, lol Organiztional decline is largely SELF-INFLICTED!”

    Stage 1: Hubris Born Success-“outrageous arrogance that inflicts suffering upon the inocent!”
    (“We’re successful because we understand why we do these specific things.” We’re so great, we can do anything!”)

    “We will see hubris in bold, risky decisions that fly in the face of conflicting or negative evidence! We will see hubris in denying even the possiblity that the enterprise could be at risk, imperiled by external threats or internal erosion, and we will encounter one of the most insidious forms of hubris:Arrogant Neglect!

    Stage 2: More, More, More, of what of whatever those in power see as ‘success.’

    Stage 3: Warning signs begin to mount yet external results remain strong enough to ‘explain away’; ‘distrubing data,’ difficulties are ‘temporary” or ‘cyclic” or ‘not that bad” and “NOTHING IS FUNDAMENTALLY WRONG!” Leaders discount negative data!!!!
    Those in Power start to BLAME EXTERNAL factors for setbacks rather than EXCEPT RESPONSIBLITY; high performance teams DWINDLE OR DISAPPEAR altogether! huh, huh.

    Stage 4: CUMULATIVE PERIL, repeatedly grasping for silver bullets; leaders abandon all hope of building a great future; the institution atrophies into utter insignificance & extreme cases, simply dies.

    Stage 5: The longer they stay in stage 4, grasping for silver bullets, the more likely it will spiral downward. Accumulated sebacks and expensive FALSE STARTS, erode financial strength and individual spirit to such an extent that leaders ABANDON all hope of building a great future; the institution atrophies into ustter insignificance!

    They have never let go of the Hubris stage, all the way through!

    John~ I have Athena Dean on order, looking forward to reading that too! 🙂

  162. switch permalink
    July 29, 2011 6:36 am

    As close as Orrin was to Dickie, you can better believe Dickie was speaking from experience there, on his blog. I remember almost everytime I saw him, he would reference Dickie to alot of things. I’d love to hear Orrin’s perspective on him now that he’s left.

    What a sad deal gang. The truth is unfolding.

  163. July 29, 2011 9:14 am

    Everyone – There’s less than seven hours before the official rollout of LIFE. Let’s use this post and comments section as our discussion forum for this weekend’s Leadership conference.

  164. Speak Your Truth permalink
    July 29, 2011 9:35 am

    Amthrax~ I agree. Wasn’t it Shoot_to_kill that said their ‘pay-plan’ was suppose to be on the website today,and ‘Matt’ said that people are ’employ’ of Orrin (what was he afraid to say EMPLOYEE it might scar the prospects with the TRUTH and the deception won’t work on them)because he/PC make the decisions.

    So are they still spealing the ‘B-Type’ “Passive, Residual Income’ That they have LIED TO EVERYONE for years about! I wonder if they are telling the prospects and ALL others that they are ‘EMPLOY’ (slaves working for him to go in DEBT & Broke) of Orrin?


    I agree and understand the pain & sorrow this has caused but can only imagine the effects and intensity for such an honorable man of God whom has had to suffer himself and heal like us, but a whole congregation he has to help . I do pray for him, his family, and church.

    It is an absolute disgrace to think of the ripple effect and damage done to so many honest people that were duped into believing they were ‘making a difference’ in the lives of others, for a worth(worthless) ’cause’, to end up finding out it is nothing but a greedy farce and a big lie and then getting free from the thought reform, deception, slander, bold-faced lies and destruction that continues on….. Stage 3 right into 4 right into stage 5. It is inevitable because Orrin takes ZERO responsiblity for the damages he has inflicted.

    What they continue to do and have done to people is a disgrace and is down right evil, in my opinion, based on the knowledge of our experience and facts, of course. 🙂

  165. July 29, 2011 9:48 am

    Orrin tweeted the following today:

    Congratulations to the TEAM! 13 RT’s and above this month! Along with 3,000 increase at seminars! New records!

    He also tweeted the following shortly thereafter:

    Get the wrong people off the bus and new leaders have room to get on.

    Talking about ex-TEAM members here perhaps? Thoughts on his reports of growth within TEAM?

  166. One time Fly that sat at the Team Conference Table permalink
    July 29, 2011 9:57 am

    I’m calling bull on the 3000 increase and 13 new RT…you know what that tells me? Some of the new RT members stretched to reach the correct ticket levels to become RT…

    I also find it funny that OW would pull something out of Good To Great (his bus analogy) because he most certainly is not following a hedgehog concept…well, unless what he really is great at is being a con artist!

  167. Speak Your Truth permalink
    July 29, 2011 10:19 am

    Hmm… They never got the Wrong People OFF the Bus they are still there taking other’s for a dangerous ride ready to drive off a cliff! The right ones dumped their scheme! 🙂

    3,000 People since when, 3 years ago? And how legit (not) is the 13 RT and above,what did they lower the bar too? How many did they bought their way there, put their animals on system?

    There is no way they broke that many round tables without lowering the bar, they never did that in the peak of the biggest leaders building, WHAT’S the Rest of the Story~TRUTH?

    How many RT & ABOVE are BUYING(faking it til they make it) the system that is stock piling in their houses, ‘just investing’ or we will ‘solitify’ at a later date? I would be really surprised if any one of them is legit! That could mean anything, without the rest of the FACTS.

    Typical, never give ALL the data/facts or real truth! This is standard operating proceedure!

    They will stoop to ANYTHING to ‘Frame it up’ to deceive themselves and the outside world, its nothing but one big ILLUSION!

  168. Speak Your Truth permalink
    July 29, 2011 10:22 am

    FLY~ Why wouldn’t he be pulling it out of HOW THE MIGHTY FALL, would be much more accurate, LHOL 😉 I’m with ya it is an ILLUSION!

  169. July 29, 2011 10:48 am

    It would appear that Orrin Woodward judges success by the number of people attending seminars and how many people hit Round Table, which itself is measured by how many people are signed up and on System?

    Isn’t this the wrong way to judge success? Shouldn’t success be judged by how many people are succeeding Financially? How many people are gaining their Freedom, spending more time with their Family, learning more about their Faith, etc.? Succeeding in the rest of LIFE’s 8F’s?

    From my point of view, Orrin and company is measuring only what brings in money to those engaged in TEAM Profit Sharing.

  170. I Quit ( and glad I Did) permalink
    July 29, 2011 10:51 am

    Blah blah blah blah blah. Owen the magnificent.
    What an ass.

  171. One time Fly that sat at the Team Conference Table permalink
    July 29, 2011 11:11 am

    Amthrax – OW lost his way long ago, his prosperity led to materialism very quickly and very early on. Of course this led to his desire to get more for HIMSELF, and nobody else. (despite his fancy tag lines and being a false Christian) He has become so wrapped up in his own greed, his own wants, that he has become delusional and has forgotten about others. His “core values” are now simply hollow words.

  172. TOD permalink
    July 29, 2011 11:55 am

    I am sure that the room being made for the ‘right ones’ on the bus is at the BACK of the bus.

  173. Speak Your Truth permalink
    July 29, 2011 12:52 pm

    Thanks for the laughs once again! 🙂

    I agree with Fly. Funny when we were all donating to the O-scamming fund, and BRINGING those BIG numbers he is STILL being paid for; we were the RIGHT one’s on the dilapitated bus.

    You are right Amthrax~

    What happened to YOU define YOUR own Success, oh that’s right they have both sides of their mouths running again, with those hollow words trying to confuse them ‘poor’ souls and all I hear is wha, wha, wha, wha, wha. Good riddens, O-whiny

  174. July 29, 2011 1:38 pm

    Two tweets some up the true goal of this weekend’s conference. These tweets from @TEAMRokKaizenSJ:

    @KristinaDennard be safe 🙂 the buckeye welcome mat is out 🙂 I volunteered to help set up tool room – fired up bonus!

    @jdschulman @TMVAngel @texasnena #toolroomfactoids (from volunteer service) – 2 tractor trailers delivered all of what u see 🙂

    Anyone have any funny (or sad) tool room stories to share?

    Or, anyone care to tell us what happens during the Round Table meetings that happen the night before the Major Functions? What do they talk about during these events? Inquiring minds want to know!

  175. July 29, 2011 1:40 pm

    I also see right now is the Bronze and above Leadership meeting. Do you have to be currently qualified Bronze to attend? Or do you just have to have hit Bronze once to be qualified?

    Thursday, July 28th
    Round Table Meeting: 8:00 pm – Midnight
    Qualification: Round Table & Above
    Dress: Casual

    Friday, July 29th
    Leadership Meeting: 1:00 pm – 4:00 pm
    Qualification: MonaVie Bronze Executive & Above
    Dress: Team Apparel/Casual

  176. Speak Your Truth permalink
    July 29, 2011 2:50 pm

    Amthrax~ We have been through so many versions. I will say those who work the tool rooms sacrifice everything and work their arses off for free most of them or a pittance. The but the volunteers (slaves) who again in many cases buy their $125 to miss at least half of the function, and work like a dog. They would EXPECT every Platinum group to get at least 10 people EVERY function and some of these people would drive around the world 12-17 hrs. to even get to it! I also know some that had to be there even an extra day early that was working back stage 18 hours per day, which probably worked out to 2 bucks an hr, if that.

    To put it simply every RT/turbo/bronze ‘leadership’ meeting was a ‘beating’, boring and a waist of time and money. It was ‘hard core’ BS and NOT worth EARNING your way there!

    You would have to take off another whole day of work and for a lot of people depending on where it was had to drive across the world to get there. So it added an extra night of hotel, etc. which the scumbags have a ‘booking’ that I am sure pays for the suites Orrin stays in, through their website that does NOT allow you to cancel, just like the tickets you will have to find someone to take it if someone wouldn’t be able to make it, even if it is an emergency. I remember one time calling up and we forgot to ask for the team ‘block’ and the rooms were CHEAPER than booking through the block. This ticked me off to say the least, everyone is SUPPOSE TO BE GETTING A DISCOUNT. Yea, probably right into the thieves pockets once again. USE & ABUSE that’s what they do and expect everyone else to pay the price.

  177. Speak Your Truth permalink
    July 29, 2011 2:51 pm

    Their they go again telling you how to dress.

  178. Arturo permalink
    July 29, 2011 4:22 pm

    LIfE: Let the new error begin.

  179. Samantha permalink
    July 29, 2011 4:52 pm

    OMG, I totally forgot about the poor volunteers for the seminars. I HATED having to ask my team to buy a seminar ticket and then miss part of the event to volunteer. Sometimes, if the Grand Poobah was feeling generous, the volunteers would be given a free T-shirt. (Something ugly that hadn’t sold at the prior seminars.) Grand gesture.

    And those awful Round Table meetings on Thursday night. Yes, an extra night at the hotel, an extra day off work, and the meetings were SOOOO boring! For whatever reason, they would have every PC couple talk, and it would drag on and on. I usually left early. Same for the Bronze meeting. BTW–you only had to hit Bronze once and you were good to go to every meeting thereafter.

    I NEVER booked my room through the Team site. Yes of course it was another “revenue source” for the Team. We used to get emails from the office asking us why we hadn’t booked through the service. HAH!

    After the very first year the Team had a major in St. Louis, we took Orrin through the arena to show him the prices of the refreshments and how unfair it was to the people attending the seminar. You see, the Team gets that arena FOR FREE. Yes, the attendees not only buy the ticket, but also pay for the arena by paying outrageous prices for bottled water and popcorn. Once again, all about profits and let the little guy foot the bill.

    Man am I glad I am NOT in Columbus this weekend. Poor saps.

  180. One time Fly that sat at the Team Conference Table permalink
    July 29, 2011 5:25 pm

    Ah yes…the volunteer packs…..I clearly recall when the home office convinced The Clown In Chief that the volunteers needed to get something. Here’s some things that I recall being included, The book Pilot Vision and the leftover system CDs. Of course the head Clown didn’t want to give anything away for free. Think of it this way, a book that cost a few dollars, and a CD or two that cost maybe 25-35 cents and the head clown needed to be convinced that doing something for these people was better than doing nothing. A volunteer pack that cost less than $5 each and Leader Guru saw money not going into his profit sharing check…..

  181. Speak Your Truth permalink
    July 29, 2011 5:48 pm

    Amthrax~ Qualifications, used to be you had to be qualified for the RT.

    But we all know the levels they ‘claim’ are a joke. Still following their old scam rules from back in the early 90’s when they began with Amway, as long as you ‘hit it/ bought it’ ‘inventory loaded it,’ ‘got your grandma to go broke for it,’ ‘dumped it down the toliet,’ ‘what ever it takes to get it,’ Yipee you can now claim your flash in the pan, illegitmate rank, but hey it builds belief who cares if it’s fake. I HIGHLY doubt any of them are repeating any of their ‘claimed ranks

    Now that I think of it you get a lot of extra’s for these extra ‘special meetings’, it is extra time away from your children, extra babysitting costs,an extra indoctrinating meetings(hours), extra hotel charge, extra meal charges, extra charges on your CC , and extra sleep deprevation, to listen to a bunch of extra prideful, narssistic mis-leaders pretend their cool, know it all’s, berate people, and are the only ones that will ‘teach you’ about your b-type passive residual income; extra 8 Failures, that Orrin OWNS & CONTROLS & MV OWNS & CONTROLS, NO SUCH THING AS A B-BUSINESS FOR YOU, bahahah what a bunch of wasted extra time out of your life!

    Its all nothing but bs. gotta go, spend extra time with my life and family 🙂

  182. July 29, 2011 6:56 pm

    I just published a new post entitled, It’s Orrin’s World, and You’re Just Living in it, complete with a diagram on how he’s going to be at the top of yet another pyramid. First TEAM, then MonaVie, and next LIFE.

  183. john permalink
    July 29, 2011 7:31 pm

    Just talking about these things is ok, but more people need to know the truth. Who has the best idea of how to get this information before the eyes of the thousands that are being duped by this clever and sophisticated scam?

  184. Speak Your Truth permalink
    July 29, 2011 7:48 pm

    Its amazing looking back at how Greedy and Arrogant Orrin the PC are, act, and treat others. It’s not always good to reflect on this stuff because it makes me angry.

    They USE & ABUSE, without a thought of consideration for others but only for their own personal ego, and gain.

    I have way to many ah ha moments from being back stage watching these narssistic, self-claimed guru, arrogant stuck up’s. They walk around back stage like they are the untouchables. Their EGO’S are so out of line it is disturbing. They are the biggest frauds, then walk on stage and try and ‘PRETEND’ they are humble, it’s truly pathethic.

    It just makes you wonder when you experience your life flash before your eyes, how disturbing that will be.

  185. Speak Your Truth permalink
    July 29, 2011 7:52 pm

    Here is more books, that are on my list to read and an except from one:


    Researchers Paul Babiak and Robert Hare have long studied psychopaths. Hare, the author of Without Conscience, is a world-renowned expert on psychopathy, and Babiak is an industrial-organizational psychologist. Recently the two came together to study how psychopaths operate in corporations, and the results were surprising. They found that it’s exactly the modern, open, more flexible corporate world, in which high risks can equal high profits, that attracts psychopaths. They may enter as rising stars and corporate saviors, but all too soon they’re abusing the trust of colleagues, manipulating supervisors, and leaving the workplace in shambles.

    Snakes in Suits is a compelling, frightening, and scientifically sound look at exactly how psychopaths work in the corporate environment: what kind of companies attract them, how they negotiate the hiring process, and how they function day by day. You’ll learn how they apply their “instinctive” manipulation techniques — assessing potential targets, controlling influential victims, and abandoning those no longer useful — to business processes such as hiring, political command and control, and executive succession, all while hiding within the corporate culture. It’s a must read for anyone in the business world, because whatever level you’re at, you’ll learn the subtle warning signs of psychopathic behavior and be able to protect yourself and your company — before it’s too late.

  186. Speak Your Truth permalink
    July 29, 2011 7:56 pm

    John~ That is a great question. I try my best at coming up with an idea. 😉

  187. Speak Your Truth permalink
    July 29, 2011 7:57 pm

    Thanks Amthrax for all you do! 🙂

  188. Witty name describing curent circumstances permalink
    July 29, 2011 10:03 pm

    Orrin put a date on team going to 1 Million and talked about how all percentages of profit sharing would work. basically all money made is double the percentage of other MLM organizations, and apparently with LIFE, Orrin said the million people mark will be hit in 5 years.

  189. Arturo permalink
    July 29, 2011 10:56 pm

    Witty, Orrin is accustomed to talking to dumb people who don’t ask for facts, figures and data to support his claims. He should be required to submit data to back all of this up. While he is at it, he should present his world famous benchmarking study that showed Monavie was better than Amway. Monavie is wreck. The only study he did was a calculation of how much money leaders at Monavie would pay him to go over.

  190. Huperdeim permalink
    July 30, 2011 12:37 am

    Wow, did it take him 5 hours to say that?

  191. July 30, 2011 1:00 am

    Here’s a photo from the convention, taken by TEAM member, andy_BNB around 11:00 pm EST:

    TEAM Leadership in Ohio 2011

  192. Chuckles permalink
    July 30, 2011 5:54 am

    So “The Turd” says in 5 years they’re going to 1,000,000 people. I heard that crap 5 years ago. From the looks of the picture he’s only 997,000 people away.

    The fact of the matter is, “The Turd” is nowhere close to being a top 10 leadership guru, that figure comes from people clicking his blog site, which he gets his minions to do. The only reason he’s a self proclaimed “bestselling” author is because he forced his book into the hands of thousands of people through system and the tool room.

    This was on my mind.

  193. TOD permalink
    July 30, 2011 6:47 am

    In case anyone is confused as to definition of ‘turd’, I have put a definition below. As to which one Chuckles is referring to… take your pick.

    turd /tərd/ Noun
    1. A lump of excrement.
    2. A person regarded as obnoxious or contemptible.

  194. TOD permalink
    July 30, 2011 6:52 am

    Amthrax- you should put a 5 year countdown clock on this blog starting today. That will help the Team stay on track towards hitting this goal and no one can accuse you of being negative anymore. If I remember correctly, they are very big on accountability anyway.

  195. Chuckles permalink
    July 30, 2011 7:12 am

    “Big on accountability”???


    I do like the idea of a countdown clock.

    [Editor’s Note: Removed reference to accusation. Let’s not go there for now.]

  196. July 30, 2011 8:22 am

    @TOD – A countdown clock would be good, although I don’t think that kind of thing is allowed on this blog platform.

  197. Cali ~ permalink
    July 30, 2011 8:30 am

    Chuckles – I chuckle every time I see the words “the turd” in parenthesis. 🙂

    I am disturbed to be reading so much of this but I am glad you guys are speaking out. Unbelievable that I was duped as well, just not to the point of destruction the members posting here. I just left thinking I couldn’t hack it but never thought it was a total scam like this. I’m glad my friends and family love me and forgive me for ever trying to get them involved and thinking it was my best shot for ever making a difference in anyone’s life. Thankfully I have a job where I can do that. It pays crap and I get very little thanks but damn is it fulfilling. I am lucky to have my needs met and enough support from family and friends that I have no business complaining. I’ve got more than most.

  198. Speak Your Truth permalink
    July 30, 2011 11:10 am

    Amen! Chuckles~ Fulfilling it is great to hear!

    TOD lol

    Oh ALL them ‘poor’ souls, how sad it is have NO IDEA, they are being deceived, or what is going to happen to their lives over the next couple of years, if it makes it that long.

    A million, yea, yea, yea, maybe a million involved in a class action or millions more dollars lost out of everyone else’ bank accounts flowing right into theirs.

    I would imagine Orrin could pay ‘double that of other MLM’s” with the money he STOLE from most of US, probably the interest alone, where ever he stashed it, will pay for the pittance he is trying to brag about paying others with. Beware, their consciences might crush them, oh that’s right they DON”T have one!

  199. not signed up yet permalink
    July 30, 2011 3:52 pm

    Wow. Gonna go to a million people and it looks liek they cant even fill an area. Dont tell me TEAMbots arent in those top tiers because they are having lunch.

  200. TOD permalink
    July 30, 2011 7:08 pm

    Going to 1 million what? What are they tracking?

    1 million that join? 1 million that attend a seminar? 1 million broken hearts? I need to know what exactly going to 1 million means. It will make it easier for me to track once Amthrax figures out how to put a countdown clock on this blog. Get it done ‘thrax, it has to happen.

    I believe in you… love ya buddy. Keep doing what you’re doing.

  201. July 30, 2011 11:37 pm

    While I’m unable to embed a countdown widget on this site, I linked to a countdown externally. Read this post for more details. I’ve also added a link to the post/countdown on the right-hand sidebar. Enjoy!

  202. Arturo permalink
    July 31, 2011 11:57 am

    One more false promise. Come to the launch! Uh, I mean the Pre-launch where you can learn of the real launch. This was just a way to drive excitement during the summer months when business is probably down due to vacations and good weather. This was nothing more than manipulation at it’s finest. The mindless masses buy the whole thing. The people following the wizard of oz needs to read Baum’s tale. The people of the Emerald City wore green tinted glasses (the color of money). Baum highlighted the optimism and delusion of people of his day following snake oil salesman which eventually led to the stock market crash of the 20’s. Team/LIFE members have the same fate.

  203. Speak Your Truth permalink
    July 31, 2011 1:12 pm

    Something I found very interesting and thought some here might find it very relatable to our experience, I did.

    Who is Eric Stein? He is a criminal that was on American Greed, who ripped off investors, scammed them out of 34 million in a telemarketing scam. He said he’ sold them’ on ‘A DREAM’, but when they woke up they realized it was their worst nightmare.’ He said he believed he was invincible, and he didn’t think about others because he got ‘caught up’ in the ‘GREED’ and believed he was invincible. Sounding familiar yet?

    When an investigator paid him a visit, he said it didn’t even faze him because he was so ‘wrapped up’ in scamming people and the’ greed’ and told himself;’ no one can touch me’. . People began seeing him on American’s Most Wanted and was telling him they did. When he found out people were looking for him he shut the doors on the scam, he said he knew then he had to ‘get out of dodge.’

    He split to Southern California near the border of Mexico when there was warrant for his arrest. Knowing he was going to get caught He said; in this small amount of time he started to realize what he had done to all these people. He was caught and spent 8 years in Federal Prison. While in prison he studied ‘business’ and taught the prisoners how to run a ‘legitimate business’ and when he got out he sells this information to the public now and has to pay 25 % out of everything he makes towards the 34 million he stole from others (not enough in my opinion). One ripped off investor gave 150,000 of his money and another gave 80,000.

    He says he realizes;(now of course) “Greed Is Not Success Because It Ends Up Taking Your Freedom from You.” Very Wise Conclusion!

    Something seems very familiar here. It must take 8 years of federal time to snap the Greed out of someone, and that still remains to be seen. Also, based on our experience it is not much different than telemarketing and without a doubt; GREED is the driver.

  204. Speak Your Truth permalink
    July 31, 2011 5:33 pm

    Witty~ Thanks for sharing, I am assuming you were there. Did they talk in their usual circles on how the profit-sharing works, or did they just throw how hype like ‘they pay double of what other MLM’s pay?’ Did they give a hard copy for everyone to SEE what and how you make more than all the other MLM’s, (HA!) or are you suppose to take their worthless lying, word for it? Orrin can and at will change the profit-sharing any time he feels like it! Just the same as YOU are a ‘B-buisness owner (who owns NOTHING) who receives a passive residual income from those (team) that pays better than anyone in the industry because they had a BUNCH OF LAWYERS, tell them so!

    They been feeding that line of BS forever too.
    Did they tell you the Numbers that were there?


    We could all send in our experiences together into the FTC, but I don’t have a lot of confidence that anything would be done. We could also do the same and send it in to the Attorney General. The other one was we could contact Pyramid Scheme Alert; Robert FitzPatrick and the Advisory Board, which I believe could give us some great advice. Let me know what you think? I agree something needs to be done.

  205. Speak Your Truth permalink
    July 31, 2011 6:33 pm

    Amthrax~ You must be getting some serious hits to your site, this thread is almost up to 250 comments! Happy Reading 🙂

  206. leslie permalink
    July 31, 2011 7:18 pm

    It’s sad when i see people using their words in such a hurtful and degrading way. If you quit and chose to leave so be it, it’s your life….. but only cowards post blogs and don’t sign their name to it. Getting satisfaction out of tearing down other people is sad, and for not being in the business anymore, you are very interested in it….almost stalkerish!

  207. No Team For Me permalink
    July 31, 2011 8:08 pm

    Speak – Yes! We need to get people writing and calling the FTC, the attorney general of Michigan & Pyramid Scheme Alert. But also, Dateline, 60 minutes and Forbes mag.

    Also, was anyone able to get pictures of the tool room or can the guy who took the above photo give a couple more photo’s of the crowd. It won’t be too hard to get an accurate count of numbers with a couple pictures and a call to the venue to see what the seating capacity is.

  208. switch permalink
    August 1, 2011 8:40 am

    leslie says-
    “It’s sad when i see people using their words in such a hurtful and degrading way. If you quit and chose to leave so be it, it’s your life….. but only cowards post blogs and don’t sign their name to it. Getting satisfaction out of tearing down other people is sad, and for not being in the business anymore, you are very interested in it….almost stalkerish!”

    ….Who’s the one driving by my home at around 5 mph showing me what I’m supposedly missing out on AFTER LEAVING TEAM? What about cutting me off in traffic when out and about with my children??? I suppose that’s really not considered “stalkerish” on the team now, is it?

    How must I forget…..the Team is always right in their actions.

  209. humiliated permalink
    August 1, 2011 9:25 am

    I know, right Leslie? It is pitiful what they are doing here, making public the crimes that TEAM are committing against THEIR OWN MEMBERS. They are horrible people. Much like those people that band together to let people know that a pedophile or rapist is living in their neighborhood. Or those pesky people on news programs that let you know about a credit card scam and what situations to watch out for. Those people are soooo annoying.

    TEAM may not be hurting people physically, but they are breaking people financially, emotionally & spiritually. The people speaking out on this site are not hostile towards the poor TEAM members that are being duped (much like yourself), they are standing up against the people higher up that are responsible for the larceny and deceit. They have your back honey, and you don’t even realize it.

    I KNOW we will be hearing back from you in a couple of years with your tale of woe and shame. I really do have sympathy for you but this is your journey.

  210. john permalink
    August 1, 2011 1:52 pm

    Leslie, are you serious? You just don’t know what you are into do you? You are clueless. The leaders of Team lost a lawsuit in a federal court and had to pay nearly 25 million dollars because they led a smear campaign against Quixtar. it was led by captain courageous Orrin Woodward. I even learned that Tim Marks hid things and was fined and extra 50k or so. The Team leaders are great at anonymous blogs. Just ask the top leaders. They can tell you unless they lie about it like they did in court under oath. This is all public information on line if anyone wants to read it. This is nothing new. Leslie, you are sooo uninformed about who you are in business with. In time you will learn the painful truth that all of us eventually learned. Why do we post? Problable to ease the pain of our conscience that we were involved in a scam that hurt a lot of people. Maybe some of us want to warn others not to make the same mistakes that we did. Wake up Leslie. Read this blog and search for the truth yourself.

  211. Speak Your Truth permalink
    August 1, 2011 2:17 pm

    john~ Great Points on the anonymous blogging smear campaign, lies, and what a hypocrite Orrin is with that!

  212. August 1, 2011 7:25 pm

    Here’s another photo from the Leadership convention from a TEAM member’s twitter feed. It looks like it was taken either before or after the session, judging from the sparseness in the crowd.

  213. Dorothy permalink
    August 1, 2011 8:22 pm

    This commenter requested that her comments be removed from this site.

  214. humiliated permalink
    August 2, 2011 7:56 am

    I agree Dorothy…looks like he is about to go out on the golf course. Of course, it is no mistake that he dressed that way. He is trying to look like the “regular” guy…to be more “relateable” and “accessible”. It is all very calculated and he thinks people are so stupid, they won’t see what he is doing.

    I must say, this is the first time I have seen the “Man..the Legend” and he looks very shifty with those beady eyes. They should put his photo in the dictionary beside “sociopath”. Yuck.

  215. August 2, 2011 8:32 am

    @Dorothy and @humiliated – Are you sure that’s the Big O in that picture? It just looks like some young guy who’s decked out in the LIFE red hat and polo shirt.

  216. john permalink
    August 2, 2011 8:34 am

    I don’t think the guy in the sport shirt and hat is the big O. Not sure who it is. All of you keep in mind that the Team culture fosters an arrogant spirit. The Leaders develope an elitist mindset that makes them feel and act superior to all others. The sheer arrogance of these people makes it awful to be around them. They walk and talk with such condescending attitudes towards everyone else. They will only be your friend if you are building their downline. Stop or stall and they will drop you in heartbeat. That’s the truth for all of them. I am glad that I finally had the sense to wake up and get out of Dodge. This is a waste of your life and a thief of your time and money.

  217. Steve permalink
    August 2, 2011 8:36 am

    I believe the only one I recognize in that picture is Bill Lewis.

  218. Speak Your Truth permalink
    August 2, 2011 8:57 am

    And although that is not Orrin, John, You have it right, the ‘sheer arrogance of these people makes it awful to be around.” Well, we have ‘proof’, Bill L. is still around, LOL.

    Humiliated~ Your description is not far off, LOL. I believe one of Amthrax’s post has a picture of Orrin, maybe he remembers which post it is.

    A picture is worth a thousand words! If I were to guess the guy with the hat is a ‘new guy’ they are trying to pump up. it depicts the ‘new guy’ scenrio pretty well, they all swarm around him and give him all kinds of accolades, then everyone ‘promotes’ the ‘leader’ in this case ‘Bill Lewis.’ which in turn he will promote who ever is working with this guy. I will guarantee they are NOT just trying to make friends, having great conversation, for the sake of friendship, it is about getting him to the NEXT step. He is the only one who doesn’t have a ‘tie’ on and that is a sure sign he hasn’t been in long, LHOL.

    He is out numbered 5 to 1, typical when they ‘think’ they found a sharp one! LHOL

    [Editor’s Note: There are many photos of Orrin Woodward on the web. Go to his web site, read the Forbes article, or do an image search in Google on his name]

  219. August 2, 2011 9:22 am

    I do have a question regarding the photo. Is that little red thing in the guy’s pocket (second from the right) a ticket for the next Major Convention? Does anyone know what that pin is attached to the same guy and the guy standing behind Bill Lewis? In Amway/Quixtar, pin winners wore their pins on their outfits, even if they are not currently qualifying at the pin level.

  220. Witty name describing curent circumstances permalink
    August 2, 2011 9:39 am


    Although many big leaders do display their next major tickets in their pockets, my guess is that one is still from this function, as a full unripped function ticket is large enough to stick way out of the pockets so that everyone can see.

    As for the pin, it’s probably his Team pin. I know when I first got in they gave me a pin to wear, showing my support for my team. Gives a sense of togetherness with your team, etc. Although it could be a pin from Monavie, as I have seen some of those floating around (more for how many months you’ve been on autoship). But yeah, team pin is my best guess.

  221. Steve permalink
    August 2, 2011 10:04 am


    I would have to agree with Witty. It looks to me that it is a team pin. I used to laugh at the team pin thing. It reminded me of the pledge pins in the movie Animal House. Thank you sir… may I have another? Talk about coincidences, we all took it in the butt as well. Sorry about the visual. Lol

  222. August 2, 2011 10:11 am

    @Witty – Thanks for the clarification on the ticket and pins. Do you have a copy of the LIFE book? One thing that I’ve been wondering about is Orrin Woodward’s statement that the book has world-class photography in it. Are these stock photos or photos that TEAM members actually took?

  223. Speak Your Truth permalink
    August 2, 2011 10:23 am


    That certainly looks like a ticket and would be very typical. As far as the ‘pin’ it doesn’t look like a MV one they are round, HA! but it could be a specific ‘team name’, they do all kinds of things to try and show their ‘team pride’, they buy towels, flags, etc, wouldn’t surprise me if it isn’t what that is, to represent their ‘specific team pride.’

    Even though you are suppose to be 1 team, this created a problem with an unhealthy bunch of sore losers, competition for some of the arrogant ones. I could tell a few stories that a few teams did not show healthy competition and sheer jealous.

    After we left our jealous PC, destroyed and divided our teams, the fights began over which name they were going to use, he certainly didn’t want our team named spoke of, LHOL and others to the point of they had to have a ‘voting’ between cross-line groups. This sucked up about a month of their time, because the managers were left, all the ‘leaders’ left. LOL

    They are a bunch of immature babies, with some serious jealousy issues. There was another pittiful story where a cry baby poor sport, was stage hosting and took the mic down before anyone could announce what their ‘team name’ was because his team was getting their arses kicked and would only hold it up when it was someone on his team. Another story that was going around was someone had their teams throwing darts at people’s profile pictures.

    Now, That is some ‘leadership coaching/developement at it’s finest, isn’t it and is a perfect reflection of what these dirtbags do!

  224. Speak Your Truth permalink
    August 2, 2011 10:38 am

    Sorry guys didn’t see your post, I didn’t mean to repeat. Good points Witty.

  225. Witty name describing curent circumstances permalink
    August 2, 2011 10:40 am

    I do have a copy of the book. The pictures in it are absolutely stunning. They’re definitely in there so that we can “charge our elephants” and dream build and such. And the destinations shown are places that Team has gone (bora bora, Italy, etc.) but I can’t say for sure if they are professional or Team pics

  226. Speak Your Truth permalink
    August 2, 2011 11:06 am

    Witty~ Knowing them they used MV photographers and pictures. Just a guess but I do know MV produces a lot of those pictures from all the events.

  227. Speak Your Truth permalink
    August 2, 2011 11:07 am

    OOps, hit the button to fast, doesn’t it say in the book, who the photographer is?

  228. Witty name describing curent circumstances permalink
    August 2, 2011 11:40 am

    Speak, I don’t have it on me, I will get back to you when I do!

  229. Dorothy permalink
    August 2, 2011 2:49 pm

    This commenter requested that her comments be removed from this site.

  230. not signed up yet permalink
    August 3, 2011 12:21 pm

    Dorothy, theres a guy in the team in my area, one of the local leaders that dresses like Orrin whats even more disturbing is he speaks in the same manner and cadence as Orrin.

  231. I Quit ( and glad I Did) permalink
    August 3, 2011 12:35 pm

    Amthrax- Owen is NOT in that picture, as has been said. Just clarifying…

  232. not signed up yet permalink
    August 5, 2011 7:39 pm


    If you will read the posts we do not take pleasure in bashing TEAM just to bash it. We have all had soem very bad experiences with TEAM nyself included and I have not joined. We have the freedom to criticize TEAM becasue we are not on it, and I do not understand the offense when TEAM is criticised. Current TEAM people are welcome here, but they seem to not stick around too long. I am wanting transparency, real verifiable numbers and proof that TEAM coan do waht ti says it can, and so far I havent gotten it. And I’ve asked several peopel in my area including my sponsors uplines, mentors and gurus.

    And ya know what? The criticism seems to flow one wat from TEAM…uplines and mentors can criticize the lowe people, but it cant go the other way. Again…I have seen this happen in person.

    This is the only business I have seen where you need to sign a contract fist then they will tell you everything, and from what I ahve seen even after you join there are still secrets and inforamtion only certain people have. THis is not conjecture or speculation….I have witnessed this go on first hand and I am telling the truth.

    I challenge current team members to prove me and the rest of us ex teamers wrong, but dont spew from a CD, book or quote from Orrin & chris. Original thoughts would be greatly appreciated if you guys can still even think for yourselves.

  233. free at last permalink
    August 9, 2011 3:12 pm

    I have heard that you now have to be approved to be a director, never mind that you did all the work to get to that level. Now you have to buy a certain amount of tools each month to qualify as well. Has any one else heard this and go any additional info?

  234. Speak Your Truth permalink
    August 10, 2011 10:24 am

    free at last~

    Orrin stated they were going to a ‘voting by peers like a Law Firm’ so that would fit right into the being ‘approved’. I have said this before, if they decide they don’t like you, or perhaps just want a personal raise, after you have brought them 100’s of people then, they can ‘vote’ you out and NOT pay you, then your ‘upline’ PC can steal your team for a nice raise.

    Sorta like guaranteed money for them. Orrin always used the quote, make money while you sleep and it is better to have the efforts of a hundred people working.

    Yep, this could be one sure way they don’t have to replace the horrendous attrition rate they personally have with the efforts of others work. That is what our PC got when they stole our teams and they received the extra team, tickets and system counts to keep him qualified even though he was already being paid on them as a group volume, but it is much more money to have them as personals to place where ever it financially benefits them the most!

    We already know Orrin knew he was opperating illegally and had to get that straightened out. Mandatory purchases? They continue to finds ways to steal from others!

  235. Speak Your Truth permalink
    August 10, 2011 10:25 am

    “For a leader, integrity is a non-negotiable, for without it, no one will follow him for long.”~ Orrin Woodward Twitter

    Has the guy lost his freaking mind, or does he NEVER look in the mirror and repeat this rhetoric of himself? Unbelievable!

    How many dozens of the biggest leaders QUIT following him or have to before he heeds to his own words? WOW, the denial of this self-deceived con is unbelievable!

  236. Samantha permalink
    August 10, 2011 11:53 am

    Speak Your Truth,

    Orrin’s secret motto is, “Do as I say, not as I do.” Don’t you know that nothing he says applies to him personally?

  237. Speak Your Truth permalink
    August 10, 2011 1:59 pm

    Samantha~ How does the guy seriously live with himself, I have never in my life seen such a power hungry hypocrite only read about them! Sociopath, I am convinced!

  238. Poor college student permalink
    August 19, 2011 1:54 am

    thank you for all of this before i really got into this. I have a friend that was telling me about and i met up with his “mentor” to tell me about it. So far all i wasted was a couple of hours. But all i told them was maybe because it seemed very questionable to me. So i did some research online and stumbled across this website. I saw that this “system” requires a person to invest a lot of money before a person would even begin to make some kind of money. But to maintain a flow of income one has to buy more things. With this i concluded that more money was invested than received. Again i would like to thank all of you guys for sharing your stories before i got myself into deep “turd” =)


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