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You Can’t Go to a Million By Going Backwards – August 2007 to 2011 Meeting Location Analysis

August 4, 2011

Orrin Woodward and TEAM would like you believe that TEAM is seeing unprecedented growth, but is this really the case? If all you read were Orrin’s tweets, you would think that TEAM growing like a weed:

Congratulations to the TEAM! 13 RT’s and above this month! Along with 3,000 increase at seminars! New records!
July 28 2011

Heading into Milwaukee with the best TEAM wide growth since 2006! Life is good.
April 28, 2011

Let’s look at the facts straight from TEAM’s own calendar of events page. The following figures were extrapolated by counting the number of unique Open Meeting and Monthly Seminar locations in the month of August between 2007 and 20111.

Executive Summary

  • August 2011: 55 locations in 19 states or provinces
  • August 2010: 125 locations in 37 states or provinces
  • August 2009: 130 locations in 34 states or provinces
  • August 2008: 165 locations in 40 states or provinces
  • August 2007: 185 locations in 44 states or provinces

You cannot dispute the fact that between August 2007 and August 2011, the number of unique Open Meeting locations has drastically decreased. What follows is my analysis of the numbers.

Analysis

What could have caused such a dramatic decrease in the number of meeting locations over the past 5 years? Some theories include:

  • Orrin Woodward’s termination and TEAM’s explusion from Amway/Quixtar occurred in August, 2007. Some groups may have stayed with Amway/Quixtar between then and August 2008.
  • In the beginning of 2009, a number of TEAM leaders left to form Legacy Professional Development. They no doubt splintered TEAM and took away hundreds or thousands of distributors and dozens of meeting locations.
  • Between 2009-2010, there was not much change in the total number of meeting locations in TEAM.

So, what the heck happened between August 2010 and August 2011?!? We’re seeing 18 less states represented and a 56% reduction in meeting locations! For those keeping track, these states have zero TEAM representation as of June-July-August, 2011:

  1. AR – Arkansas
  2. IA – Iowa
  3. ID – Idaho
  4. MD – Maryland
  5. MS – Mississippi
  6. NC – North Carolina
  7. NJ – New Jersey
  8. NL – Newfoundland, Canada
  9. OR – Oregon
  10. PR – Puerto Rico
  11. TN – Tennessee
  12. WA – Washington

The following states and provinces have no meetings listed in August 2011, though they do appear in either April, June, or July, 2011:

  1. CO – Colorado
  2. FL – Florida
  3. MB – Manitoba, Canada
  4. MN – Minnesota
  5. NY – New York
  6. QLD – Queensland, Australia

What happened? Are there any TEAM members left in these states? If so, why aren’t they holding any Open Meetings or Monthly Seminars?

Can we chalk up the decrease in locations to simple consolidation? What if the meetings are being held in the exact same locations as they were years ago?

Is the economic recession putting a dent in TEAM’s numbers? When times are tough, it’s difficult to justify buying $40 bottles of purple jungle juice. Then again, don’t MLM proponents like to say that their businesses are recession-proof?

Are TEAM Casts taking the place of regular Open Meetings in hotels and conference centers? If so, those opening up their homes must have pretty big houses to accommodate the thousands of people who must be joining TEAM these days!

When he moved over to MonaVie, Orrin Woodward stated numerous times how MonaVie was a better business than Amway (which he categorized as an illegal pyramid). He’s had three years to build his business, but from looking at these numbers, it looks like his business is going backwards rather, not forwards.

With TEAM transitioning to this new LIFE (Living Intentionally For Excellence) MLM, will these numbers change in a year? Will the TEAM Calendar that I’m linking to even exist? Who knows, but it will be very interesting to see in the coming months and years.

TEAM members are fond of quoting statements like, “We are exploding!” or “This TEAM is on fire!” As with one’s opinion of TEAM, these statements can be interpreted in two ways: either TEAM growth is rapidly increasing or decreasing.


Here is a complete list of unique meeting locations in the month of August between the years 2007 and 2008.

August 2011

  1. AB-Calgary
  2. AZ-Phoenix
  3. CA-Anaheim
  4. CA-Fullerton
  5. CA-San Jose
  6. CA-Sunnyvale (Santa Clara)
  7. CA-Vallejo
  8. GA-Atlanta
  9. GA-Roswell (Atlanta)
  10. IL-Rockford
  11. IN-Goshen
  12. IN-Indianapolis
  13. KS-Wichita
  14. MI-Battle Creek
  15. MI-Davison
  16. MI-Grand Rapids
  17. MI-Lansing
  18. MI-Marshall (Battle Creek)
  19. MI-Muskegon
  20. MI-Southfield
  21. MO-St. Charles
  22. MO-St. Louis
  23. NB-Dieppe
  24. NB-Miramichi
  25. NB-Moncton
  26. NS-Antigonish
  27. NS-Halifax
  28. NS-Wolfville
  29. OH-Akron
  30. OH-Mansfield
  31. ON-Aylmer
  32. ON-Cambridge
  33. ON-Exeter
  34. ON-London
  35. ON-Ottawa
  36. ON-Simcoe
  37. PA-Ft. Washington (Philadelphia)
  38. PA-Lancaster
  39. PA-Mechanicsburg
  40. PE-Charlottetown
  41. PE-Summerside
  42. QC-Beauceville
  43. QC-Charlesbourg
  44. QC-Dorval (Montreal)
  45. QC-Sainte-Foy
  46. QC-St. Nicolas
  47. TX-Grand Prairie (Dallas)
  48. TX-Houston
  49. UT-Salt Lake City
  50. WI-Madison
  51. WI-Middleton
  52. WI-Neenah (Appleton)
  53. WI-Rhinelander
  54. WI-Schofield (Wausau)
  55. WI-Waukesha (Milwaukee)

August 2010

  1. AB-Calgary
  2. AB-Leduc
  3. AR-Bryant
  4. AR-Jacksonville
  5. AZ-Mesa
  6. AZ-Phoenix
  7. CA-Buena Park
  8. CA-Davis
  9. CA-Fullerton
  10. CA-Monrovia
  11. CA-Sacramento
  12. CA-San Diego
  13. CA-Sunnyvale (Santa Clara)
  14. CA-Vallejo
  15. CA-Visalia
  16. CO-Commerce City (Denver)
  17. CO-Denver
  18. CO-Grand Junction
  19. FL-Ft. Myers
  20. FL-Lakeland
  21. FL-Orlando
  22. GA-Atlanta
  23. GA-Roswell (Atlanta)
  24. IA-Ankeny
  25. ID-Idaho Falls
  26. IL-Bloomington
  27. IL-Naperville
  28. IL-Rockford
  29. IN-Fort Wayne
  30. IN-Goshen
  31. IN-Indianapolis
  32. IN-Richmond
  33. KS-Topeka
  34. KS-Wichita
  35. MB-Winnipeg
  36. MB-Winnipeg (WEBCAST)
  37. MD-Ocean City
  38. MI-Bad Axe
  39. MI-Battle Creek
  40. MI-Big Rapids
  41. MI-Bridgman (Benton Harbor)
  42. MI-DeWitt
  43. MI-Flint (Grand Blanc)
  44. MI-Grand Rapids
  45. MI-Indian River
  46. MI-Marquette
  47. MI-Marshall (Battle Creek)
  48. MI-Midland
  49. MI-Muskegon
  50. MI-Port Huron
  51. MI-Sault Ste. Marie
  52. MI-Southfield
  53. MI-Traverse City
  54. MN-Plymouth
  55. MO-St. Charles
  56. MO-St. Louis
  57. MS-Biloxi (WEBCAST)
  58. NB-Dalhousie
  59. NB-Fredericton
  60. NB-Miramichi
  61. NB-Moncton
  62. NB-St. John
  63. NC-Chapel Hill (WEBCAST)
  64. NJ-Edison
  65. NL-St. John
  66. NS-Antigonish
  67. NS-Halifax
  68. NS-Truro
  69. NS-Wolfville
  70. NY-Brooklyn
  71. NY-East Syracuse
  72. NY-Syracuse
  73. OH-Cincinnati
  74. OH-Columbus
  75. OH-Fairview Park (Cleveland)
  76. OH-Miamisburg (Dayton)
  77. OH-Westlake
  78. OH-Wooster
  79. OH-Worthington (Columbus)
  80. OH-Youngstown (Girard)
  81. ON-Cambridge
  82. ON-London
  83. ON-Mitchell
  84. ON-Ottawa
  85. ON-Windsor
  86. ON-Woodstock
  87. OR-Portland (WEBCAST)
  88. PA-Altoona
  89. PA-Danville
  90. PA-Elizabethtown
  91. PA-Essington
  92. PA-Ft. Washington (Philadelphia)
  93. PA-Lancaster
  94. PA-Mechanicsburg
  95. PA-Wilkes-Barre
  96. PE-Charlottetown
  97. PE-Summerside
  98. PR-San Juan
  99. QC-Beauceville
  100. QC-Montreal
  101. QC-Saint-Hyacinthe
  102. QC-St. Nicolas
  103. QLD-Douglas
  104. TN-Lebanon (Nashville)
  105. TN-Lebanon (WEBCAST)
  106. TX-Austin
  107. TX-Corpus Christi
  108. TX-Dallas
  109. TX-Houston
  110. TX-Irving
  111. TX-Pearland (Houston)
  112. TX-San Antonio
  113. TX-Spring
  114. UT-Murray
  115. UT-Salt Lake City
  116. WA-Vancouver
  117. WI-Appleton
  118. WI-Kenosha
  119. WI-Madison
  120. WI-Menomonie
  121. WI-Onalaska (LaCrosse)
  122. WI-Rhinelander
  123. WI-Schofield (Wausau)
  124. WI-Sturgeon Bay
  125. WI-Waukesha (Milwaukee)

August 2009

  1. AB-Calgary
  2. AB-Leduc
  3. AB-Red Deer
  4. AR-Bryant
  5. AR-Little Rock
  6. AZ-Mesa
  7. AZ-Phoenix
  8. AZ-Tucson
  9. BS-Nassau
  10. CA-Anaheim
  11. CA-Fullerton
  12. CA-Glendale
  13. CA-Morgan Hill
  14. CA-Pasadena
  15. CA-Sacramento
  16. CA-San Diego
  17. CA-Sunnyvale (Santa Clara)
  18. CA-Vallejo
  19. CO-Denver
  20. CO-Glenwood Springs
  21. FL-Ft. Myers
  22. FL-Kissimmee
  23. FL-Orlando
  24. FL-Pace
  25. FL-Tampa
  26. GA-Atlanta
  27. GA-Roswell (Atlanta)
  28. ID-Idaho Falls
  29. IL-Bloomington
  30. IL-Carterville
  31. IL-Naperville
  32. IL-Rockford
  33. IN-Fort Wayne
  34. IN-Goshen
  35. IN-Indianapolis
  36. KS-Overland Park
  37. KS-Topeka
  38. KS-Wichita
  39. MB-Winnipeg (WEBCAST)
  40. MD-Glen Burnie (Baltimore)
  41. MD-Ocean City
  42. MI-Bad Axe
  43. MI-Battle Creek
  44. MI-Big Rapids
  45. MI-Bridgman (Benton Harbor)
  46. MI-DeWitt
  47. MI-Gaylord
  48. MI-Grand Blanc
  49. MI-Grand Rapids
  50. MI-Hudsonville
  51. MI-Ishpeming
  52. MI-Manistee
  53. MI-Midland
  54. MI-Muskegon
  55. MI-Sault Ste. Marie
  56. MI-Southfield
  57. MI-Traverse City
  58. MI-West Branch
  59. MN-Maple Grove
  60. MO-Lee’s Summit
  61. MO-St. Charles
  62. MS-Biloxi
  63. MS-Biloxi (WEBCAST)
  64. NB-Bathurst
  65. NB-Caraquet
  66. NB-Dalhousie
  67. NB-Fredericton
  68. NB-Moncton
  69. NB-Woodstock
  70. NC-Chapel Hill (WEBCAST)
  71. ND-Bismarck
  72. NJ-Edison
  73. NS-Antigonish
  74. NS-Dartmouth
  75. NS-Halifax
  76. NS-Wolfville
  77. NY-Auburn
  78. NY-Brooklyn
  79. NY-East Syracuse
  80. NY-Syracuse
  81. NY-Watertown
  82. OH-Cincinnati
  83. OH-Columbus
  84. OH-Fairview Park (Cleveland)
  85. OH-Girard
  86. OH-Perrysburg (Fremont)
  87. OH-Vandalia (Dayton)
  88. OH-Westlake
  89. OH-Wooster
  90. OH-Worthington (Columbus)
  91. ON-Cambridge
  92. ON-Goderich
  93. ON-Hawkesbury (Ottawa/Montreal)
  94. ON-Kitchener
  95. ON-Markham
  96. ON-Ottawa
  97. ON-Woodstock
  98. OR-Portland
  99. PA-Altoona
  100. PA-Bellefonte
  101. PA-Danville
  102. PA-Ft. Washington (Philadelphia)
  103. PA-Lancaster
  104. PA-Mechanicsburg
  105. PA-Pittsburgh
  106. PA-Reading
  107. PA-State College
  108. PA-Wilkes-Barre
  109. PE-Charlottetown
  110. PE-Summerside
  111. QC-Dorval (Montreal)
  112. QC-Quebec
  113. QC-Sainte-Foy
  114. QC-St. Georges
  115. TX-Austin
  116. TX-Corpus Christi
  117. TX-Dallas
  118. TX-Pearland (Houston)
  119. TX-San Antonio
  120. TX-The Woodlands (Houston)
  121. UT-Sandy
  122. WA-Vancouver
  123. WI-Appleton
  124. WI-Black River Falls
  125. WI-Madison
  126. WI-Menomonie
  127. WI-Rhinelander
  128. WI-Schofield (Wausau)
  129. WI-Waukesha (Milwaukee)
  130. WI-Wausau

August 2008

  1. AB-Calgary
  2. AB-Edmonton
  3. AB-Grande Prairie
  4. AB-Red Deer
  5. AR-Bryant (Little Rock)
  6. AR-Little Rock
  7. AR-Searcy
  8. AZ-Mesa
  9. AZ-Tucson
  10. BC-Abbotsford
  11. BC-Duncan
  12. BC-Kamloops
  13. BC-Langley
  14. BC-Prince George
  15. BC-Qualicum Beach
  16. BS-Nassau
  17. CA-Anaheim
  18. CA-Chico
  19. CA-Corona
  20. CA-Downey (Norwalk)
  21. CA-Irvine
  22. CA-Lodi
  23. CA-Norwalk
  24. CA-Ontario (Riverside)
  25. CA-Roseville
  26. CA-San Diego
  27. CA-Santa Clara
  28. CA-Sunnyvale
  29. CA-Tujunga
  30. CA-Vallejo
  31. CA-Woodland
  32. CO-Denver
  33. CO-Glenwood Springs
  34. CO-Littleton
  35. FL-Kissimmee
  36. FL-Pensacola
  37. FL-Tampa
  38. GA-Roswell
  39. GA-Roswell (Atlanta)
  40. ID-Boise
  41. ID-Idaho Falls
  42. IL-Naperville
  43. IL-Peoria
  44. IL-Rockford
  45. IN-Fort Wayne
  46. IN-Goshen
  47. IN-Indianapolis
  48. IN-Lafayette
  49. KS-Manhattan
  50. KS-Overland Park
  51. KS-Topeka
  52. KS-Wichita
  53. LA-Denham Springs
  54. MA-Boxborough
  55. MB-Winnipeg (WEBCAST)
  56. MD-Gaithersburg
  57. MD-Glen Burnie (Baltimore)
  58. MI-Bad Axe
  59. MI-Battle Creek
  60. MI-Benton Harbor
  61. MI-Clare
  62. MI-Clinton Township
  63. MI-East Lansing
  64. MI-Escanaba
  65. MI-Gaylord
  66. MI-Grand Blanc
  67. MI-Grand Rapids
  68. MI-Holt
  69. MI-Hudsonville
  70. MI-Manistee
  71. MI-Marquette
  72. MI-Midland
  73. MI-Negaunee (Marquette)
  74. MI-Saginaw
  75. MI-Sault Sainte Marie
  76. MI-Sault Ste. Marie
  77. MI-Shelby Township
  78. MI-Southfield
  79. MI-Spring Lake
  80. MI-Traverse City
  81. MI-West Branch
  82. MN-Lake Elmo
  83. MN-Minneapolis
  84. MO-Columbia
  85. MO-Maryland Heights
  86. MO-St. Charles
  87. NB-Bathurst
  88. NB-Fredericton
  89. NB-Miramichi
  90. NB-Moncton
  91. NB-Richibucto
  92. NB-Saint John
  93. NB-Woodstock
  94. NC-Charlotte
  95. ND-Bismarck
  96. NH-Portsmouth
  97. NJ-Edison
  98. NM-Albuquerque
  99. NS-Antigonish
  100. NS-Dartmouth
  101. NS-Halifax
  102. NS-Stellarton
  103. NS-Truro
  104. NS-Wolfville
  105. NS-Yarmouth
  106. NV-Las Vegas
  107. NY-Bayside (Queens)
  108. NY-Rochester
  109. OH-Cincinnati
  110. OH-Columbus
  111. OH-Defiance
  112. OH-Girard
  113. OH-Miamisburg (Dayton)
  114. OH-Powell (Columbus)
  115. OH-Richfield (Cleveland)
  116. OH-Toledo
  117. OH-Westlake
  118. OH-Wooster
  119. OH-Worthington (Columbus)
  120. ON-Goderich
  121. ON-Kitchener
  122. ON-Markham
  123. ON-Peterborough
  124. ON-Thunder Bay
  125. ON-Waterloo
  126. ON-Woodstock
  127. PA-Altoona
  128. PA-Chambersburg
  129. PA-Danville
  130. PA-Denver (Lancaster)
  131. PA-Ft. Washington (Philadelphia)
  132. PA-Harrisburg
  133. PA-Lancaster
  134. PA-Pittsburgh
  135. PA-Pittston
  136. PA-Reading
  137. PA-State College
  138. PE-Charlottown
  139. PE-Summerside
  140. QC-Gatineau (Quebec)
  141. QC-Sainte-Foy
  142. TN-Gallatin
  143. TN-Nashville
  144. TX-Amarillo
  145. TX-Austin
  146. TX-Corpus Christi
  147. TX-Dallas
  148. TX-DeSoto
  149. TX-Houston
  150. UT-American Fork
  151. UT-Salt Lake City
  152. UT-St. George
  153. WA-Pasco
  154. WA-Vancouver
  155. WI-Brookfield
  156. WI-Eau Claire
  157. WI-Green Bay
  158. WI-Madison
  159. WI-Oshkosh
  160. WI-Rhinelander
  161. WI-Schofield (Wausau)
  162. WI-Two Rivers
  163. WI-Waukesha
  164. WI-Wausau
  165. YT-Whitehorse

August 2007

  1. AB-Calgary
  2. AB-Edmonton
  3. AB-Grande Prairie
  4. AB-Lethbridge
  5. AB-Red Deer
  6. AL-Birmingham
  7. AL-West Mobile
  8. AR-Little Rock
  9. AZ-Mesa
  10. AZ-Phoenix
  11. AZ-Tucson
  12. BC-Campbell River
  13. BC-Chilliwack
  14. BC-Ft. St. John
  15. BC-Kamloops
  16. BC-Kelowna
  17. BC-Nanaimo
  18. BC-Prince George
  19. BC-Surrey
  20. BC-Victoria
  21. BS-Paradise Island
  22. CA-Baypoint
  23. CA-Buena Park
  24. CA-Carson
  25. CA-Chico
  26. CA-Corona
  27. CA-Fairfield
  28. CA-Fullerton
  29. CA-Irvine
  30. CA-Los Angeles
  31. CA-Milpitas
  32. CA-Modesto
  33. CA-Norwalk
  34. CA-Oakland
  35. CA-Palm Desert
  36. CA-Palmdale
  37. CA-Pamona
  38. CA-Riverside
  39. CA-Sacramento
  40. CA-Salinas
  41. CA-San Diego
  42. CA-San Jose
  43. CA-Santa Cruz
  44. CA-Santa Maria
  45. CA-Union City
  46. CA-Visalia
  47. CA-Woodland
  48. CO-Colorado Springs
  49. CO-Denver
  50. CO-Glenwood Springs
  51. CO-Littleton
  52. CO-Northglenn (Denver)
  53. CT-Vernon
  54. FL-Jacksonville
  55. FL-Kissimmee
  56. FL-Niceville
  57. FL-Orlando
  58. FL-Tampa
  59. FL-Temple Terrace
  60. GA-Duluth
  61. IA-Newton
  62. ID-Boise
  63. ID-Idaho Falls
  64. ID-Twin Falls
  65. IL-Marion
  66. IL-Rockford
  67. IL-Schaumburg
  68. IN-Fort Wayne
  69. IN-Goshen
  70. IN-Indianapolis
  71. LA-Baton Rouge
  72. MB-Winnipeg (WEBCAST)
  73. MD-Frederick
  74. MD-Glen Burnie (Baltimore)
  75. ME-Waterville
  76. MI-Ann Arbor
  77. MI-Battle Creek
  78. MI-Bay City
  79. MI-Benton Harbor
  80. MI-Brighton
  81. MI-Cadillac
  82. MI-Cass City
  83. MI-Clare
  84. MI-Clinton Township
  85. MI-Escanaba
  86. MI-Flint (Grand Blanc)
  87. MI-Gaylord
  88. MI-Grand Blanc
  89. MI-Grand Rapids
  90. MI-Grandville
  91. MI-Hudsonville
  92. MI-Jackson
  93. MI-Lansing
  94. MI-Lapeer
  95. MI-Manistee
  96. MI-Marquette
  97. MI-Pierson
  98. MI-Saginaw
  99. MI-Sault Sainte Marie
  100. MI-Sault Ste. Marie
  101. MI-Southfield
  102. MI-Spring Lake
  103. MI-Traverse City
  104. MI-West Branch
  105. MN-Lake Elmo
  106. MN-Minneapolis
  107. MO-Maryland Heights
  108. MO-St. Charles
  109. NB-Bathurst
  110. NB-Edmunston
  111. NB-Fredericton
  112. NB-Miramichi
  113. NB-Moncton
  114. NB-Riverview
  115. NC-Charlotte
  116. ND-Bismarck
  117. NH-Portsmouth
  118. NJ-Edison
  119. NJ-Edison
  120. NM-Albuquerque
  121. NS-Dartmouth
  122. NS-Halifax
  123. NS-Truro
  124. NS-Wolfville
  125. NV-Las Vegas
  126. NY-Albany
  127. NY-Queens
  128. NY-Syracuse
  129. NY-Vestal
  130. NY-Watertown
  131. OH-Cincinnati
  132. OH-Columbus
  133. OH-Richfield (Cleveland)
  134. OH-Toledo
  135. OH-Vandalia (Dayton)
  136. ON-Kitchener
  137. ON-Ottawa
  138. ON-St. Catharines
  139. ON-Thunder Bay
  140. ON-Windsor
  141. OR-Portland
  142. OR-Redmond
  143. OR-Salem
  144. OR-Wilsonville
  145. PA-Altoona
  146. PA-Bethlehem
  147. PA-Camp Hill
  148. PA-Danville
  149. PA-East Freedom
  150. PA-Essington
  151. PA-Harrisburg
  152. PA-Johnstown
  153. PA-Lancaster
  154. PA-Mars
  155. PA-Pittston
  156. PE-Charlottown
  157. PE-Summerside
  158. SC-Columbia
  159. TN-Nashville
  160. TX-Beaumont
  161. TX-Dallas
  162. TX-Denton
  163. TX-Houston
  164. TX-Irving
  165. UT-Cedar City
  166. UT-Ogden
  167. UT-Provo
  168. UT-Salt Lake City
  169. UT-Sandy
  170. UT-St. George
  171. VA-Norfolk
  172. WA-Tacoma
  173. WA-Tukwila
  174. WA-Yakima
  175. WI-Brookfield
  176. WI-Cameron
  177. WI-Eau Claire
  178. WI-Fitchburg
  179. WI-Green Bay
  180. WI-Madison
  181. WI-Oshkosh
  182. WI-Peshtigo
  183. WI-Rhinelander
  184. WI-Wausau
  185. WV-Martinsburg

1 These figures do not count any Men’s Leadership, First-Time Opens (August 2007), Ladie’s Leadership, EORO, Power Player parties, nor Super Open Meetings.

138 Comments leave one →
  1. free at last permalink
    August 4, 2011 6:34 am

    Great job Amthrax, numbers don’t lie. However, uplines do! Our upline used to tell us how their other teams were exploding. We always thought we were doing something wrong. After talking to a crossline friend, we found out they were saying the same things to that group, but neither group was growing. That’s why they don’t want you talking to crossline, you will find out the TRUTH.

  2. I Quit ( and glad I Did) permalink
    August 4, 2011 11:13 am

    Oh Amthrax, this ones gonna catch Owen below the belt! He’s gonna be pissed!! But hey… if the shoe fits…

  3. Steve (Peachy) permalink
    August 4, 2011 1:03 pm

    You are psychic man. I was just trying to locate that information earlier this week. I too noticed that there are far fewer opens and was wondering how it compared to these past few years. Thanks and great job.

  4. Huperdeim permalink
    August 4, 2011 2:12 pm

    It looks like there is a mistake:

    “these states have zero TEAM representation as of June-July-August, 2011:

    AR – Arkansas
    IA – Iowa
    ID – Indiana”

    I think Indiana is still represented. Is it supposed to say Idaho?

  5. August 4, 2011 2:29 pm

    @Huperdeim – You’re right. I’ve corrected the post to say ID = Idaho instead of Indiana. Thanks for the catch.

  6. Speak Your Truth permalink
    August 4, 2011 3:13 pm

    Way to go Amthrax! Figures, don’t lie, but liars sure do figure! 🙂

  7. john permalink
    August 4, 2011 5:30 pm

    One of the most disgusting traits of Orrin Woodward is his constant over hyping the size and growth of the business. This tendency to exagerate is pickied up by all the top leaders who follow the example of their leader. (We should all hold Orrin responsible for the actions of his followers). At every Team meeting and event the new people are misled by false hype and exaggerations. Its no wonder when people find out the truth that they feel they were lied to and deceived by these so called Team leaders. It should be noted that false hype, exagerations, and misrepresentations are nothing short of telling lies. To overstate, over hype and to tell half truths is really a serious character flaw of those who perpetrate this fraud. The facts do not lie however. If someone will do the math it will take more years than we have in our life time to reach a million. This is just a part of the grand delusion Orrin is constantly promoting. Isn’t there anyone on his Team that can see through this crap? I cannot believe all of these people are stupid. I have concluded that they are willingly participating in this deception. The Team leaders know that their hype and promotional statements are grossly overstated. But that does not bother any of them. Their only concern is to get more people sucked into this trap so that the cash flow keeps them getting their life style. It does not seem to bother any of them that what they are doing is really a massive act of deception.

  8. Speak Your Truth permalink
    August 4, 2011 6:05 pm

    WaaBAM!!!!!!! 🙂 I see it!

  9. TOD permalink
    August 4, 2011 7:28 pm

    … you would think that TEAM growing like a weed.

    I think leaders of TEAM are smoking weed.

    How long has it been since the first utterance of ‘going to 1 million’? 8yrs or more ago and NOW all of the sudden 1 million is going to happen in the next 5yrs? Me thinks not.

    Hey TEAM leaders and followers, stop hitting the hippie lettuce and wake up.

  10. kath permalink
    August 4, 2011 7:34 pm

    i was reading the comments from the big O’s most recent book. Here’s one of them.

    “My wife and I vastly underestimated what would be requisite of an ‘average joe/jane’ to change the results in our lives from ordinary to extraordinary. Our leadership journey has required daily nourishment from the Gurus and we are grateful that they have put all their best tweets and blog articles into this beautifully appointed book. We were constantly printing out our favorites and passing them out to friends and family. This book has made it easier (and sexier) to distribute the truth. Thank you Chris and Orrin and please never stop telling us the truth.”

    i think im gonna be sick. ugh.

  11. not signed up yet permalink
    August 4, 2011 8:16 pm

    I am postive Amtraxs numbers are accurate. I am in one of the towns listed. From my own expereince I can say that the Tuesday night opens run a pretty steady 100 people and its the same people I have seen very few new people and the new people dont seem to come back twice.

    Webcasts at someones home averages about 10-15.

    At the last monthly the room was full but dropped to about half for the second portion of the event which was for standing tick holder only. I got llucky and was able to stay.

    I can say without a doubt that team is not “exploding” here. At best they are holding steady and not actually growing depsite what the team is saying.

  12. Dorothy permalink
    August 4, 2011 8:26 pm

    This commenter requested that her comments be removed from this site.

  13. Bogart permalink
    August 5, 2011 1:51 am

    not signed up yet

    You might want to check if they have combined monthly seminars in your area. If they have this would explain how Team might be holding in your area. I know from my own experience that they would combine the Wausau and Madison seminars every other month. This would give the appearance that the Team was growing. Our upline would tell the new person”there are at least 100-150 more people here this month than the last. And the month after the numbers would fall back .

  14. Bogart permalink
    August 5, 2011 8:00 am

    Thanks Amthrax for the detailed info
    I looked at the team calender for each week in august. They have between 14-15 open meetings each week. They move the meetings around each week which must give them the 55 locations . I’m sure that the webinars are contributing to the loss of some locations but not to the 14 open meetings per week level.

  15. Bogart permalink
    August 5, 2011 8:08 am

    Amthrax I went back to the first week of December 2008. There were about 85 open meetings that week.

  16. switch permalink
    August 5, 2011 8:47 am

    The question is, who’s team is actually growing here?

    I’m definitely seeing a pattern here.

  17. Speak Your Truth permalink
    August 5, 2011 9:01 am

    Amthrax~

    Add the (GROWTH INDICATORS) lack of open’s & seminars to the flushing of the line of sponsorship, and it is wide-eyed obvious. They can twist it, frame it, hype it, make excuses all day long, but at the end of the day they still have to face it, the numbers Don’t lie, and they maybe able to fool themselves and the followers for a while, but even they see it, by keeping them blinded with the excuse of their webinars. Then they keep the brainwashed souls relying on their word for everything, BIG MISTAKE!

    Most won’t know the real numbers, and they will never disclosing the actual #’s from the office, which obviously would tell the real truth. But as Bogart & not signed up yet pointed out, it is an illusion and they have to get creative to make it ‘appear’ they have grown by combining seminars.

    They have a loooonnnnngggg way to go; and I would say they will never catch up to the thousands and thousands who left or quit; it would take a miracle to Replace what they lost, and are still losing. At their biggest momentum, greatest growth, which took a lot of big leaders building for decades (most who left now) to get to that point, it would take a miracle for them to replace those builders and the numbers they lost. None of the PC have even moved on in ranks in MV, another indicator. Just an example; after the shenanigan’s and corruption of the registration, our groups system counts started dropping by the 100’s; per week!!!!!!

    That is some backwards momentum then and obviously it is still going on! 🙂

    Orrin used to brag about 300% Team growth, our group had grown at that rate in a year, but know it would be that in reverse now! LHOL 🙂

    You can fool some of the people some of the time, but you can’t fool all of them; all of the time!

    Why wouldn’t Orrin just post the ACCURATE numbers from the ‘sales of tickets’ and open’s that they HAVE, on ‘his award winning blog?’ Oh, then their would be no need to lie. Hmm…

    Well, that would be obvious, then they couldn’t be fakers, and that would blow the deception cover and most likely tons more would quit, at least the honest ones who are snowed and have no clue they are being lied to. They break all the integrity and honesty rules, and they wonder why they have people quit!!!! DUH 🙂

  18. August 5, 2011 11:05 am

    @Speak – On the TEAM Calendar for August 2007-2008, there were many Open Meeting speaker names that I did not recognize. Where did all those people go???

  19. Speak Your Truth permalink
    August 5, 2011 11:13 am

    LHOL They came to ‘speak’ on your website! 🙂

  20. Rob Thomas permalink
    August 5, 2011 11:23 am

    SYT / webelieved / and other former leaders –

    I remember ALWAYS hearing about how fast TEAM was growing, and the explosive growth, and the “rising tides raise all ships” rhetoric. In your best estimation, how big was TEAM when it was at its largest? I think the largest number I ever heard was 35,000, and that was right about the time of the split with Q*.

  21. Speak Your Truth permalink
    August 5, 2011 11:32 am

    Rob,

    I am not sure and heard similars numbers as big as 50,000. That is when Randy, Billy, and all the other groups came. This I do know, Orrin and the Team Office have those numbers and could stop the hype; but they have never disclosed them, it has all been whatever blows from their mouths from stage. They could Prove what they say, but don’t!

  22. August 5, 2011 12:22 pm

    The Forbes article on Orrin and TEAM stated “60,000 mostly middle-class members.”

  23. August 5, 2011 1:21 pm

    The Forbes article seems to be correct stating that team had ‘60,000’ members at one point. Team would never have eclipsed this number though. This would be team at its peak and after the lawsuit and the mass exodus from the likes of (Chuck Goetschel, Randy Haugen and Billy Florence and many other big leaders) they dropped over night to around 5 or 6K of butts in seats at a major. These guys are not growing despite all the hype and hysteria they will lead you to believe from stage. Each month their business continues to shrink as new leaders wake up. Most recently with Triple 100s Matt Abraham and Don Freeze!!

    Matt and Don: “Welcome to the good side!”

    Love ya buddies

  24. Steve (Peachy) permalink
    August 5, 2011 1:32 pm

    You all remember the St. Louis Major when they all did not show up, and the big deal they made about Claude & Lana staying with Team. Makes me want to RALPH just writing about it.

  25. Speak Your Truth permalink
    August 5, 2011 2:27 pm

    Steve~

    Can you share with us what they said about those who left?

  26. Speak Your Truth permalink
    August 5, 2011 2:34 pm

    How could I forget the Forbes Article. lol

    But if it is only ‘members’ doesn’t mean they were all on system or all attending seminars & majors. If they just signed up then they only got when they registered off their first order, and maybe a seminar ticket.

    Will, do you know if this was just ‘signed up’ members or attending and on system? That is some drastic backwards growth, and have you heard what their ‘current’ major numbers were? 🙂

    I agree with you on Don & Matt, 2 more who are truly Free!

  27. Speak Your Truth permalink
    August 5, 2011 2:37 pm

    Oops~ suppose to say they would have only got Paid on the sign up/first order and maybe seminar ticket.

    Being a ‘member’ means nothing to them, unless they are using it as ‘look at us we have 60,000 members’ to try an make it ‘appear’ they are something they are not!

  28. Speak Your Truth permalink
    August 5, 2011 2:39 pm

    Oh, sorry for so many posts, they possibly could be paid for the EBC too.

  29. Steve (Peachy) permalink
    August 5, 2011 2:44 pm

    SYT

    Nothing was said about those who left, at least publicly. I do remember Orrin checking himself from stage, and he said something to the effect, and I am paraphrasing, “I better watch myself here.” I am sure somone out there can give us a more definitive answer.

  30. Speak Your Truth permalink
    August 5, 2011 3:08 pm

    Thanks Peachy, lol

    I know what you are saying, he always is about covering himself, but we all know that is how he sends the messages avoiding the responsiblity, he wants you to read between the lines. Just like the ‘history lessons’ and every other thing that someone could hold him responsible for!

  31. Outcast permalink
    August 10, 2011 10:23 am

    A big reason for the decrease is the team casts for sure. Not to defend TEAM(they sure wouldn’t defend your honor). But from what we saw at first we all met together and that was on the calendar. But when we went to team casts it wasn’t on the calendar. And you don’t have to have a big house because they have LOTS of team casts in the same area. Keeping everyone even more separated does help in keeping the lie going that everyone is growing. It was still the same few people every week with the occasional new person that usually didn’t come back. Growth is a joke. They say Team Casts are going to explode your team, but really it’s just a way keep crosslining from happening so you can’t see that really NO ONE is growing. Not just you. lol

    AND What happened to Pastor Dickie? He was pushed to us in the beginning we were given CDs with him, but then we never heard him mentioned again and the Brady’s moved away from there. Does anyone still go to his church? Was he shunned?

  32. August 10, 2011 10:43 am

    @Outcast – If the TEAMcasts were successful, this would lead to an increase in numbers at the Open Meetings and Monthly Seminars, no? Dan Hawkins quotes Orrin Woodward as saying:

    In the last 60 days, since we announced we would pre-launch at the the Fresno and Columbus majors, our TEAM numbers have grown nearly 3,000 people in attendance at seminars.

    I would like to see a demographic breakdown of this new 3000 group of people. Judging from the Twitter accounts that I have been following, many new TEAM members seem to be around college-age.

  33. Outcast permalink
    August 10, 2011 11:21 am

    I would agree from what I have seen personally around here it would also be college-age. Someone I personally know actually goes onto the college campus and recruits. His numbers are much higher than the 30+ year olds trying to build. Teamcasts are way to keep crosslining from not happening and for them to pocket more money. Everyone still pays the same, but now we don’t have to rent a room somewhere. :-/

  34. August 10, 2011 11:50 am

    @Outcast – Can these college-age kids afford to be so gung-ho with the system and tool purchases? Any idea on the success rates for the person that you know? Is he participating in Sling, Squeeze and Side Action, a technique taught by TEAM?

  35. Outcast permalink
    August 10, 2011 12:07 pm

    I don’t know how they can afford it. I know there is a lot of pressure to just use a credit card to get your dreams. Who cares if you charge it up now, you will have more than enough to pay it off in 2-5 years, right? haha The person I know just qualified Bronze Directer for the first time, he went double power player before the major he “seems” to be doing really well. But doesn’t everyone talk about how well they are doing? Everyone participates in Sling, Squeeze and Side Action. However, it is being taught one way and preformed another. We had issues in our upline where they were doing it unfairly(like you talk about in your post), but that isn’t how it’s taught in the text book or on CDs. But you have people who don’t care about honesty, so they put a new person(s) in above people who saw it first. They figure that those people don’t know any different.

    As for this guy, no idea how they are doing it. We are crossline so we never talked about that that stuff.

  36. August 10, 2011 12:49 pm

    @Outcast – How did you come across this blog? Are you in the process of getting out of TEAM? What do you think is the visibility of this blog across the team in your area?

  37. Outcast permalink
    August 10, 2011 12:57 pm

    I came across this blog months ago by chance. Anytime you google anything team or mona vie this is a top hit. We were full on into TEAM at the time. Before we ever joined we knew about all the bad stuff being said. But we got sucked in anyway. It’s hard to believe a “blog” when you are trusting people in your church showing you about TEAM. It all sounds so great, until you see people for who they really are. We always felt uneasy about how you are supposed to only surround yourself with people in your TEAM and everyone else is pretty much a loser. It all came to an ugly head and we are out now. At first it was really sad because we thought we lost our chance at our “Dreams”. But now it’s such a huge relief to be done. I just hope someday the other people involved see the truth. I wish pastors would stop promoting it. Not sure why people can’t how these TEAM leaders are using church as their hunting grounds. It’s so scary.

    I’m sure other people in this area have seen this blog. But I know that the people who are all in don’t look. They are told time and again that blogs are liars. Don’t listen to the 95 percenters.

  38. Speak Your Truth permalink
    August 10, 2011 1:00 pm

    Outcast~

    Thanks for sharing. I believe you are right on the keeping the ‘cross-lining’ completely out of anyone’s ears reach. This is the quickest way to get to the truth and they know it.
    I have spoken to many ‘cross-line’ leaders and it confirms everything that is said on here and more. It is the full picture of the web of lies when you know what happened to others! I find it histerical they expend so much exuberant energy on just trying to keep others from ‘cross-lining’ but in the same token it is such a terrible injustice because that is how they keep the LI(f)E going.

    I also agree from experience, they will do everything in their will power to keep the LIE of ‘it’s exploding’ from the eyes of those who it would be obvious too.

    I highly doubt they will EVER give up the Majors, because it is the BIGGEST PAY DAY, so they will never be able to fool all the people all the time, it will be obvious when those numbers don’t grow!

    The open’s and numbers on system is a direct correlations to the numbers at seminars and majors, and even though they think they are smarter than all the rest,’ people aren’t STUPID, and figure it out but question it secretly and eventually find out they are being lied to, deceived, something isn’t right, they are going broke, and quit!

    Just like the cult they are, going to a college campus, knowing these kids don’t have money, I cannot gut the Greedy lives they live!

  39. August 10, 2011 1:42 pm

    @Outcast – Thanks for sharing more about your story. How can this blog be improved to prevent people from getting sucked in the first place?

    A common TEAM tactic used in Michigan was to buddy up with a local church to gain followers (i.e. Pastor Dickie). Looks like this has happened in your area too. In time, I think they will learn the truth about TEAM, but it takes time (like with you and Dickie).

  40. Outcast permalink
    August 10, 2011 2:09 pm

    I really don’t think anything will get through to them until they see for themselves how fake everyone is. No one inside believes these blogs because they are being told that you are all nameless cowards. If you don’t say who you are, you are basically making up lies. Of course can you imagine the ramifications of using our names? If you used to be high up in TEAM Orrin would probably slap a law suit on you. For me, I would lose even more family and friends.

    For us it has been so sad to see what happens inside a church when TEAM comes in. I am so thankful that at our new church our Pastors are against TEAM. Finally someone can see through it. As long as they stay strong through all the bribes from the big guys themselves. :-/

    Did Dickie get out?

  41. Outcast permalink
    August 10, 2011 2:10 pm

    Oh and as far as not being able to hide numbers at the Majors. They kinda can now that they have a major in two different places now. They can lead people to believe that the other major is blowing up.

  42. Speak Your Truth permalink
    August 10, 2011 2:50 pm

    Outcast~

    Yes Pastor Dickie is gone and has been for a long time now, I will not speak for him,
    but I can say I have personally spoken to him and would bet if you were told anything why he left, it would be a lie, based on everything that people have been told on his departure from here. Haven’t seen anyone that is STILL on the team ever tell the truth why he left, because they don’t know the truth and have been lied too, but there are some comments on here you will see would give you a good idea.

    It is a given coming from the Orrin & PC of the Team who are compulsive liars and have lied about every leader, including the office staff and the Dickie family, that has left because another one of Orrin’s motto’s is: ‘the end justifies the means’, doesn’t matter if you have to sell your soul to the devil to protect your millions, do unethical, immoral, or illegal things, it is all acceptable to them.

    There is a list of leaders on this blog, under many posts, that have left, we know there are many, many thousands more, you may already know some of these bigger leaders have left and feel free to add names not on there, if you know they left. There isn’t any of the bigger leaders that I personally know left on good terms, oh boy, quite the contrary!

    Yes, the li(f)ers come on here all the time and call us nameless, faceless, cowards, who wanted something for nothing and didn’t want to do the work, because we are anonymous. We all know this is what is being said on and off stage, because they are desperate to keep people blinded from the truth!

    EVEN 99% of their team mates are anonymous, and Orrin himself was (anonymous) behind the biggest Anonymous smear campaign, just verifies their HYPOCRISY!

    But they steer clear of that truth!

    They have for decades played the other major is exploding, but most leaders know who is moving on and being recognized because they can’t help themselves but talk about that ONE person who is growing. That can even be deceiving too because they buy their recognition or give some people like the Hawkins other teams so they can ‘appear’ to have done the work. It is all an illusion, and because they never tell the truth, it keeps people in a state of confusion, which is exactly what cults do.

  43. John permalink
    August 10, 2011 3:35 pm

    Outcast, was Pastor Dickie shunned? From what I have been told by many people when he finally saw the light and quit walking with Team and the Wizzard of Oz he had many people leave his church and slander him all over the place with lies and misrepresentations. Friendship with these folks only happens when you have something they need. If you have nothing to offer these scam artists they will drop you in a heart beat like they did all of us on this blog. Not that any of us wanted an ongoing relationship with these people. Lol.

  44. One time Fly that sat at the Team Conference Table permalink
    August 10, 2011 4:06 pm

    My respect for Pastor Dickie knows no limits…I’m not speaking for him, but I will say, I can only imagine that any MAN that is a real SERVANT LEADER, will only sit back so long and allow a immoral man like OW spew lies about his family. LIke many of us here, The Dickie’s were fooled by OW and his slick talking.
    OW was caught lying about members of the Dickie family and when the Former CEO decided he’d had enough OW proceeds to lie about him. At least Pastor Dickie has never had members of his family go to the new TEAM Church and physically confront the liers that remain on TEAM……..I’ll shut up know……

  45. webelieved permalink
    August 11, 2011 8:11 am

    I really think it would help Pastor Dickie to come out with a simple public statement. It would help others to know he is out as well. I know the pain he must be going through, however the truth sets you free. It is only then we can move on. The team loyalists will run away and he will be left with people that want to be free and want to start rebuilding their lives. Then he can keep moving forward doing the Lord’s work. I will be praying for him and his family.
    I pray the vultures go away from him. I am sure Orrin know’s Pastor’s family leaving hurts the Team’s credibility BIG TIME!

  46. Speak Your Truth permalink
    August 11, 2011 10:03 am

    webelieved~
    I agree, I know if Pastor Dickie made a public statement on his blog, he would be gracious, honest, and get the truth out there. I believe this would show others they have been lied to and show that Pastor has and wants to move on with his life and church. I also believe this would stop all the questions and probably numerous phone calls that make this experience be re-hashed over and over. The truth is always the best policy and sets us all FREE!

    Those of us who have spent time with and know Pastor Dickie all know that he has integrity, is an honest man and as with all of us can relate to the deep pain this causes. I too, pray for him and hope he can share with all those who are being deceived, what the real truth is.

  47. johnny5 permalink
    August 15, 2011 8:23 pm

    Why did Chris Brady move to N.C.? To file bankrupcy?!?! http://www.mayerbrown.com/lawyers/profile.asp?hubbardid=B321992040 This would be a perfect cover if he did. He moved to a town that has a Christopher James Brady as a bankruptcy and financial attorney. If you google a Christopher James Brady bankruptcy guess who come up? Too strange. I heard that Marks, Bradys and Martins may have all taken the fall for Woodward to keep his name clear. Lots of coincidences here.

  48. johnny5 permalink
    August 15, 2011 8:41 pm

    By the way. I left Team in July of 2008, just before the meltdown at Amway/Quixtar. I was a founders platinum with a business that went from Turbo 50 to a Team 50 overnight thanks to my uplines badmouthing my wife and I as we missed a Team Function for a the Wedding of her sister. I went from speaking at Seminars & Opens to outcast overnight. I knew at that point this was not for us, and could not keep doing what we were doing. It wasn’t right. I slinged, squeezed, and side-actioned with the best of them. Quad power-player, and Triple power player at consecutive functions. After being out for a couple of years I miss many of the people I developed teams with. We were close to some of them. Once I was out those relationships diminished overnight. I realized I was a player, but also realized I was playing others. To this day I believe I could have gone PC if I would have stayed in. I mentored with Guzzardo, and even Woodward. I spent the night at his place in 2007, drove 400 miles one way for a power player party. I remember a quote he said to me when I picked him up from the airport that night. “The only difference between you and me is what I have up here.” He pointed to his head. “The books I have read and the CDs I have listened to.” I believed him at that point in my life. Wonder how many people he has told that to?

  49. August 15, 2011 10:06 pm

    @Johnny5 – That sounds like more of a coincidence to me. If he did file for bankruptcy, wouldn’t there be a public record of it?

  50. webelieved permalink
    August 16, 2011 2:17 am

    Johnny5- Welcome! It seems lots of ex-Team leaders are finding this site. Wondering how you found it? It is really disturbing how if something is taken as unloyal in Team, your credibility is destroyed by your upline. We experienced the same thing. If you haven ‘t please read Amthrax’s thread ” Ex-team comments about their TEAM/Woodward experiences”. I am sure you will relate to lots of other leader’s stories there. I too believe we would have went pc if we stayed.We couldn’t, we could no longer gut the unethical and hypocritical behavior of the top leaders.
    LIFE is much better now out of Team 🙂 🙂
    We actually are living our priorities.

  51. webelieved permalink
    August 16, 2011 2:23 am

    Triple and quad Power Player- that was almost unheard of! And then to be shunned for going to a wedding! Wow! That is really cult like, hey? It is amazing how they speak one thing on stage and do the opposite off stage. It seems many are frauds.

  52. free at last permalink
    August 16, 2011 5:49 am

    I’m wondering how many of those triple and quad power players were real. I know they weren’t on our team. When I mentioned this, somebody told me not to sweat the small stuff.
    O.K, it may be small, but isn’t that how it all starts. We start out with a little white lie, and it just snowballs from there.

    I know we were told if we were close to power player just to sacrifice someone. At first I went along with this, but after a while I could no longer live a lie. I thought we were trying to become better people and live a Godly life. I know no one is perfect, but if your sinning without any remorse and continue doing so, I know for me that was not a path I wanted to go down.

    Johnny5, I’m not saying you didn’t go triple or quad, that was just how it was on our team. Our uplines said they went triple and quad all the time, when I know it didn’t happen. I think their egos got the best of them. Some people want to win at any cost.

  53. webelieved permalink
    August 16, 2011 7:00 am

    Free at last- What did mean sacrifice someone? Do you care to share? Can you tell us more if not, it’s ok?
    I am just amazed how people could lie about that! The lies just keep coming out.
    I used to watch them cross stage and think I am killing myself, how the heck are they doing that, and your saying they lied?
    That was one of those what am I doing wrong deals!
    I do think someone could legitimately go triple Power Player if they showed a lot more then 15 plans a month. We made growth happen like that, but it is very rare. For someone new, Triple Power Player would be 30 new people registered in depth in one leg and 15 in the other with appropriate system counts in each, registered in between major conventions.
    Thanks for sharing, it just really confirms what I have wondered about all along. How many lies/half truths were orchestrated/told to keep us going and believing!?

  54. Speak Your Truth permalink
    August 16, 2011 8:54 am

    johnny5~

    I am truly sorry to hear about your experience and especially how the dirtbags badmoughted your wife, but know you are NOT alone, for most men that is fighting words!

    Boy Guzzardo must have lost almost ALL of his big leaders! There is a list of names on Amthrax in many different posts that shows those who have left and it would make you wonder what Guzzardo would have left? LHOL

    It’s no wonder the team PC steals others groups, they wouldn’t quailify if they didn’t as in the case of Dan & Lisa Hawkins that were ‘given’ their PC teams, there is a post on here about that also. That must be in the team P&P that they ‘blackball’ people and don’t let them speak if they question your loyality! In my opinion the PC and Orrin are the most corrupt and evil, liars, decievers, and manipulators I have ever met and if you read the comments on here, I wouldn’t be alone in that.

    As, webelived said read the site you will figure out what you already know but will also see how damaging and diffi ‘cult’ this is and know you won’t feel alone. There are so many ex-team leaders speaking out!

    Welcome to the site and hope you continue to share your experiences! 🙂

    free at last~

    I believe you are right and know for all kinds of recognition that could be true, especially now. It is corrupt plain and simple. That comes from the TOP examples, they will do ANYTHING to make it ‘appear’ they are growing. They are master illusionist!

    As, I said before people have sold their souls for the almighty dollar in team, why else would they stay KNOWING themselves all the unethical, immoral, and illegal shenanigans and they WILL pay that price! I know for us personally that wouldn’t work, because we had a conscience!

  55. Speak Your Truth permalink
    August 16, 2011 9:00 am

    johnny5~

    I also heard Chris Brady went bankrupt and heard that is why Orrin bought Chris’s house (massion?) to bail him out. Whether that could be proven, I would guess as Amthrax pointed out there should be something in the public bankruptcy records? And if that was proven to be true, surely would say a lot about their financial ‘mentoring’, and their implying they have endless cash flow, can do and buy whatever they want any time they get an urge to?

  56. johnny5 permalink
    August 16, 2011 8:27 pm

    Amthrax – I read in some other posts and heard some rumors that the break-up and final settlement out of court may have bankrupted Brady, Marks, & Martin. Woodward would not go bankrupt (well for obvious reasons). All hearsay…however why in the heck would Brady move to NC. That is really strange.
    ____

    Oh I did in fact go quad and triple power player. I averaged about 20-25 plans a month, during that stretch. I didn’t have a job, lived at home and wasn’t married yet either. I was single so I really focused on Team. I had a great team too, would not have been done w/out sling and squeeze. We turned 10 maybes and 2 nos into yes’s 3 days after may a major. Everyone who went to major was set up for PP within a week. We built so fast relationships suffered. It fell apart almost as fast as it was put together.
    ____

    The longer I am out, the better I feel. However, I still like the concept of MLM. I wish I could find a group/product/team that truly has a win/win/win like Team always talked about.

  57. webelieved permalink
    August 16, 2011 8:56 pm

    Johnny- It is a shame Team talks about living your priorities and then you were ousted for living them and going to a family wedding. Discusting. I too thought I liked mlm, but now that I have researched and had a terrible experience, I believe I would be much better off building a real s business and turning it into a b business. In mlm you do not own it and you have no control. Nothing is set up to help the distributor only the corporations. I wish I would have spent all that time on education or building a real business that I actually owned. Team lies, we didn’t own anything, and our upline/downline could destroy or steal it whenever they wanted. Getting our time back was a lie too, as we always needed to replace people and attend meetings etc. Obviously they won’t let you ever get your time back. Brig is still working as is Woodward, Brady etc.

  58. Acadia permalink
    August 17, 2011 7:47 am

    I went to my first brainwashing, um I mean “meeting” last night in Canada. The team members talked about how they are now stay at home parents and they make 15k a month. They talked about the 8 F’s and the internet/community marketing. You can be your own boss, the money you make will give you a tax break blah blah blah… I admit, I was getting sucked in. They said I only had to invest 130 dollars to join and that it would pay itself off in the long run. They were all so vague. They talked about books, cd’s and a super juice in a can????? One of the main presenters, said that he is only 35 and he is already retired. He said that he retired at the same time as his dad but now his dad had to go back to work again since he didn’t have good enough pension. If this gimmick was that easy, then how come his dad wasn’t joining him and making big bucks too? That was the first thought that caused me to question myself. I even got invited to go to a home meeting tonight. Supposedly, the Team leaders now live at the local golf course community. They used to live in a shack in the country. If I pay the 130 bucks, I will get a start up kit and have more information. But I wanted all the information now…I am not naturally curious for nothing!! I realized I had to give money to get something out of it. I wasn’t going to waste my time trying to sell expensive fizzy juice and hope to god my bank account would explode in a few years. WE ARE IN A RECESSION!!!…I will use my food processor to make better juices from my fruits and vegetables that I take from my own garden, thank you very much!!! This sounded too good to be true…So today I started my espionage. FU Monavie!!!!!!

    I am grateful for finding your blog Mr. Amthrax.
    Centergy

    [Editor’s Note: Removed location and name of presenter at request of commentor]

  59. August 17, 2011 8:04 am

    @centergy – Glad that the blog assisted you in seeing through their deception. That’s a good point about the presenter’s dad not being in the biz with his son. Everything is deliberately vague because they rope people in on “making lots of money” and they keep people in by convincing them “it’s not really about the money, it’s about helping people.” Classic bait and switch tactic.

  60. Speak Your Truth permalink
    August 17, 2011 8:44 am

    Amthrax, Could you put this link on your site from the FTC on “The Bottom Line On Multilevel Marketing Plans” I think it is great for new prospects to know what questions to ask. Thanks 🙂

    http://business.ftc.gov/documents/inv08-bottom-line-about-multi-level-marketing-plans

    Centergy~
    If you want to have some fun with this scam, Check out the link above from the FTC website, the guy you seen ‘show the plan’ said he is retired and making 15 grand, you could print the questions off from the FTC website take it to them and make them show you the data, it would be fun! 🙂

    They also warn you to NOT sign up in ‘opprotunity meetings’ to take your time and RESEARCH, on the internet, like you have done and figured out already, it sounds to good to be true! LOL

    The ‘you can be your own boss’ is only partially true. YOU DON”T own your own business, Orrin Owns and CONTROLS it right down to whether you get paid or not. Did they mention B-type, passive, residual income?

    Glad you seen through it and didn’t loose what all of us here have, and it was A lot more than money! Welcome to the site! 🙂

  61. centergy permalink
    August 17, 2011 8:49 am

    Hello Amthrax,
    Thank you for your reply.
    I will definitely continue reading your blog. I do not want to see my best friend getting involved in a scam-ripoff cult.
    I applaud you for all your time and energy invested in your amazing blog!!!

    Sincerely,
    Centergy 🙂

  62. August 17, 2011 8:51 am

    @Centergy – Can you tell us how you got prospected in the first place? Is your best friend fully invested into TEAM? How many people were at the meeting last night? Did you get a sense for how many guests were there versus TEAM members? Did you stay for the after-meeting meeting?

  63. August 17, 2011 8:56 am

    I created a new page containing links to FTC’s info here: https://amthrax.wordpress.com/ftc-info-on-mlms/ I also updated the header nav menu from Operation Empty Promises to link to this new page.

  64. centergy permalink
    August 17, 2011 9:56 am

    @ Speak your truth- Nice to meet you 🙂 I e-mailed the link to my friend, thanks for the info.

    @ Amthrax My friend has been mentioning for a few weeks about a business conference. Since I am an introvert and not into sales, I politely declined. Then last night she asked me again and I said I would just go since I haven’t seen her for a few days. Her College teacher is part of a Team, that’s how she got in. She didn’t pay the 130$ up front, but the teacher put it on his credit card and she will pay him when she can. The team members had to pay a fee at the entrance if they brought a guest. The fee was 10 bucks. She is in the beginning of the stages, I don’t think she has sold anything yet. She doesn’t have a lot of documentation, but she took some notes (the team leaders were eager to look at them LOL)

    There was about 80 people last night. When the speaker asked how many team members were in the crowd, less than a dozen raised their hands. I found this bizarre…since it’s that much profitable, wouldn’t there be more team members? The speaker said there was 30 000 people who attended the Ohio conference…Wow…really? no way… That was my second “what the hell?” moment.

    I did stay for the after meeting. A third incident brought the final Light-bulb moment…I asked my friend a lot of questions, and she sounded motivated…but confused. She’s been to a quite few meetings, but still couldn’t make sense of what she was getting into. She then proceeded to tell me that the Team Leaders will clarify it for me. One of the female Team leaders brought us to to trunk of her vehicle and gave me a start-up kit. My friend said she never got one of those…I was supposed to go through the book and cd’s and give it to my friend tomorrow.
    There are 2 cd’s and a book inside. How come my friend didn’t get it before me? Whatever…I feel like burning it now…

    I found that the Team leaders are composed of husband and wives…they are stay-at home parents with their kids since they make a lot of money.The BIG conference is supposed to be at Mathieu-Martin High school in Dieppe, New Brunswick on September 10th (the city right next to Moncton).

    Hope this helps 😉
    Centergy

  65. Speak Your Truth permalink
    August 17, 2011 10:03 am

    THANK YOU AMTHRAX!!! 🙂

    Centergy~ I will be back to ask more questions~ thank you!

  66. August 17, 2011 10:09 am

    @Centergy – Curious to know what your friend thinks she should be selling? MonaVie Juice? TEAM tools? The new LIFE business hasn’t even launched yet, so there’s no way until November 1, 2011, for a distributor at the bottom to make money unless they sell MonaVie, which appears to be less emphasized these days by TEAM.

    Out of a crowd of 80, I would expect the majority to be in TEAM, so I found your comment about the dozen bizarre too. Doesn’t add up to me. The Nationwide Arena in Columbus, Ohio, where they held their conference can’t even hold 30,000 people! Concert capacity is listed at 21,000 and photos from the convention show that the arena was configured to either be in “half capacity” or “270 degree” mode, both of which would hold far less than 21,000.

    I hope your friend can think rationally and analytically instead of emotionally when looking at the evidence. Having her college teacher as her sponsor isn’t helping; since he’s in a superior position, she may feel like deferring to him instead of a friend. It’s a tough situation to be in, and I can only wish you the best in getting her out of it.

  67. webelieved permalink
    August 17, 2011 10:11 am

    Centergy- Welcome! I find your comments interesting. I would guess that a lot more then a dozen were already on Team in the crowd. they come back every week, to build belief in the new guy. When we were in maybe 5 out of one hundred were really new to the group. In cult language this is called group pressure. It has been proven when their are 5 dots placed on the floor in a group, if people in the group say there are six, the new people will also say their are six when they clearly know there are only five. Also your friend is confused on purpose, the Team plan is made to be overwhelming and complicated for a reason. In cults people are intentionally confused to indoctrinate them into the groups ideals,values, and thinking etc. When you are confused you are more suseptible to the group think because your critical thinking abilities are turned off. Check out the bite model at http://www.freedomofmind.com or read Cults In Our Midst, or a free ebook listed at right, Merchants of Deception. Your friend will be indoctrinated into the group especially if she attends the Major Leadership Convention. Try to show her this site, before it is too late. There are many top earning leaders that have left Orrin Woodward and Team LIFE who were making in the hundreds of thousands of dollars, and he has stolen, lied and cheated them. That should be a sign to RUN! His own pastor will not speak to him.

  68. webelieved permalink
    August 17, 2011 10:19 am

    Team leaders are taught to give you cds that fit your situation and personality to get you in. Manipulation at it’s finest. They believe they are helping you. Also they are taught to give you information a little at a time because otherwise it will blow you out. You just think you’re joining a great group of like minded people. They will not tell you up front what you will be spending in time and money and that in the end after you do all the work and build the community they can steal it all. And you have nothing left, no residual ongoing income. Orrin the leader himself steals it. Who the hell would sign up for that program?

  69. webelieved permalink
    August 17, 2011 10:26 am

    Also it should be against school policy for a proffesor, in a position of authority to be in business and recruiting college students/ dating them or anything else. That is a dangerous position to be in, and he is abusing his position which should be a red flag. I would call the Dean of the college with this information. No matter what group the proffessor would be involved with, this would be wrong. Also I would get her parents involved for sure, even if you do not know them. It will save years of pain, agony and money!

  70. centergy permalink
    August 17, 2011 10:53 am

    I am becoming a bit paranoid now. Is it possible for you Amthrax to delete my real name? What if the Team people come after me? I have a bit more to add later on…I will be back.

    [Editor’s Note: At Centergy’s request, I’ve changed the name to her handle]

  71. Outcast permalink
    August 17, 2011 2:33 pm

    @John I say “shunned” because that’s what happened with us. Family will have nothing to do with us now, we left nicely. Only became negative because after we quit we were no longer talked to. Sisters and brothers, not even distant family. Church family too. It’s so sick. I can’t wait to see TEAM fall.

    How had Orin taken teams from people? I don’t doubt it, but don’t understand the logistics.

  72. free at last permalink
    August 17, 2011 2:44 pm

    @webelieved, when our uplines asked if we had any one we could sacrafice, they were asking if we could just put someone in and pay for their sign up fee. They would never get product or go on system, unless you needed a system to go powerplayer. Then you said they were going to sign up on system. The sacrifice was never intended to build the business. Every one knows someone they can sacrifice, a mother, father, brother, sister, a cat or dog. Honestly, I thought the pet part was a joke, but now i’m not so sure. Do whatever it takes! right?!

  73. Speak Your Truth permalink
    August 17, 2011 7:09 pm

    centergy~

    I don’t believe there is any reason for you to believe anyone will come after you and understand it is scary to learn about it being cult, you won’t have anything to worry about because you never got started and they will just blow you off.

    I think you did the right thing and gave your friend the link to this site. There is a lot of truth in the things they do is very much what cults do, but probably not what your thinking. 🙂

    I do also agree with weblieved that I think the professor is stepping over the line contacting his students for a ‘business opprotunity’ and he shouldn’t be allowed to ‘make money’ off of his students, he is there to teach. But he too will find out that 99% of the people lose money and never make a profit.

  74. webelieved permalink
    August 17, 2011 7:44 pm

    Outcast- Orrin and PC took leaders’ teams within the Team back office and gave them to other leaders. Therefore taking people’s Team profit sharing away from them. People that built for years and some for decades, people that were on cds and did seminars and opens, had their teams stolen and secretly given to others who did not build them. So much for residual income for building communities! What a lie! I am sorry to hear your story, anyone outside the business is made to be the enemy, just like in cults. I too have people close to me that slandered us etc. Never called, just believed whatever the henchmen told them. So sad. I can understand your heartache. Glad you are here.
    Free at Last- Wow we never did that, although I always wondered how people were hitting those PP levels. I do hear now of big leaders doing things like buying major tickets and hotel rooms for people to come to the major so they can appear to hit big levels in Team. So sad. I guess fake it till you make it. So glad I am out, they should feel some guilt the next time they speak on integrity.

  75. webelieved permalink
    August 17, 2011 7:50 pm

    Centergy- I agree with Speak they do not care about you. Your friend may not like that you are on here sharing the truth, but as far as the Team, they do not care because you are not involved and don’t have a large following of people involved. You may just be blown off by your friend is she stays in. Thanks for your opinion on the situation, I am so glad you kept your critical thinking in place 🙂

  76. webelieved permalink
    August 17, 2011 9:04 pm

    So Outcast you are saying your own family will not speak to you? So sad. That seems to be a sign of people under mind control, if I have ever seen. For family to turn against family over Team tells me team has much more power over your family members thinking then they should. In team sad to say, we give all of our critical thinking skills and abilities up, and become dependent on the groups thinking, or in most cases our upline gurus thinking. We believe whatever they or the system says, even if it is negative and applies to our own family and friends. This is us vs them doctrine. Outsiders are the enemy, ignorant losers, broke people, dream stealers, etc. The people that love and care for us and truly want the best for us, now become our enemies in our mind if they are not in the group or don’t agree with the groups ideology or practices. We are trained right from the begining to discredit their opinions of the group.
    I am embarassed to say there was a time I would not listen to my families opinions, etc. Because we were under a thought reform program in my opinion. My family and friends whom I love, were slowly stripped of their credibility with me as I was indoctrinated with Team think. Now, I cannot believe I distrusted my family and put my trust in strangers who didn’t give a crap about me! The good news is it wears off once you stop listening to cds and associating with Team.I was unknowingly decieved and used big time by this group! The betrayal and hurt is like none other I have felt! I would guess when your family realizes what a scam it is they will be remorseful for treating you badly. These people you know are under mind control/thought reform, please try to not take it personally. I know it is hard.
    I too will be glad when they can no longer destroy people’s lives.

  77. Outcast permalink
    August 18, 2011 12:53 pm

    @webelieved Yes, family and church family. Some not speaking at all, some stand offish, not like we used to be at all. Once your not TEAM you don’t matter, even if you are family or members of the same church. It’s so sad.

  78. John permalink
    August 20, 2011 7:42 pm

    Outcast you are saying that at your church the people who are a part of the Team are rejecting you? That is tragic.This helps to confirm the deadly influence this cult has on the church. People need to be warned about this. If people don’t speak up more people will be harmed and more churches will go throught the same process of infiltration and stagnation.Telll us more about your story. Get the message out.Pastors need to be warned about this.Where is your chkurch located? Is this the church where Pastor Dickie ministers? Let us know. Hope you will get through this time of paiin.

  79. One time Fly that sat at the Team Conference Table permalink
    August 21, 2011 10:53 am

    Goals Must Be in Line With Priorities and Values – “In the struggle for achievment, there will always be temptations to “sell out” or compromise one’s beliefs.” Chapter 3 Launching a Leadership Revolution….

    Well I guess that ship sailed a long time ago, right Orrin and Chris?

  80. Outcast permalink
    August 21, 2011 12:17 pm

    @John Yes people in our church who are still apart of TEAM are rejecting us. It’s all nice on the outside, but the friendship we had before TEAM is gone. Thankfully there are not too many people at church (yet) who are a part of TEAM. But each week someone in TEAM brings someone with them I just cringe. I know what can happen, I saw it already at our old church.

    I don’t want to say where I am or too much details of our story because with Orrin reading this blog they will figure it out. It would just cause more problems with family and church if they knew I was so against TEAM now.

    I’ll just say that I’ve met the Mark’s, Brady’s and Martin’s and it was before I knew about TEAM. We don’t go to Pastor Dickie’s church, we live no where near there.

  81. Speak Your Truth permalink
    August 21, 2011 2:12 pm

    Outcast~

    Thanks for sharing your story and it is devastating. Where is there shame? They pretend they are Christian but Their behavior speaks for itself. I know that doesn’t ease the pain but know you aren’t alone and there are many people who are walking in your shoes.

  82. webelieved permalink
    August 21, 2011 3:04 pm

    Outcast- I agree there are many in your shoes, unfortunately. It is sad that they cannot even see their behavior is contradictary to calling themselves Christians. Christians include everyone, are not hateful, and do not decieve intentionally. However when their is evil they call it out. It is our duty to tell the truth, in my opinion. Outcast I am so sorry for your pain. I hope someday some relationships will be reconciled, when others wake up from worshiping the Team.

  83. John permalink
    August 21, 2011 3:41 pm

    Outcast, thanks for the reply. I know a lot of Team people, and the three leaders you mentioned have moved shop to Florida. Where ever your church is it is in danger of being overwhelmed by a deadly virus that will poison, corrupt, and change it forever. Most people in that church will not know how bad it is until it is too late. Someone from Pastor Dickeys church told me that the damage has been horrendous. They may never recover. You might need to find a new church or risk the infection unless you can be brave enougth to resist their deadly influence. Warn as many as you can and tell the pastor to visit this site. Maybe he might call Pastor Dickeys church to find out what happened… If they will talk.

  84. Hershall permalink
    August 30, 2011 6:47 pm

    About numbers. The locations have been limited to make room for web cast opens and seminars in more locations. I agree that this limits cross lining and it also takes the light off of the fact that there are so many that just attend but do not grow. The opens listed in the calendars move around here from week to week and the seminars change locations too. I’ve never made open meetings a habit but the few I attended never had more than half a dozen prospects out of 15 – 40 attendees. The seminar I’ve followed around here has grown a lot every visit since my first. I hadn’t been to one from april until august this year. This time the butts in seats seemed about the same. Maybe it was the web casts and maybe it was the location and maybe it was because of the summer. I don’t think it was the Team being less potent at this time.
    About numbers at the quarterly events – the majors in april split up the Eastern Canada group from everyone else. Then the summer major brought those guys into the fold and left the California/Western States people to their own event. This certainly gave an impression of growth from Milwaukee to Columbus because Claude’s groups are huge. They had a lot of the share of recognition in Ohio. (And Ohio had a lot of recognition). I really can’t say conclusively if there is growth but it seems like a lot of leaders are moving on. The arena was pretty darned full in the 270 degree setup except for the top most level. I took a quick look of the number of sections multiplied by a guess of the numbers of seats in each section and added the floor seats and my estimate was 11,000 this summer. The way the numbers are built and shenanigans that leaders are involved in to get them is still of concern. Not the butts in seats count but who gets who. It’d be simple if MV PETs were used for levels but mixing in Team groups gets it all muddled. If our application was with MV and they’re the ones that pay then that ought to be the focus of the business and recognition. The teaching about building a community and growing personally and leadership should remain optional and at the discretion of each person who has researched and accepted the terms of their business arrangement. I’ve liked much of what’s been available through the Team system but much of it has been a waste due to repetition and self promotion. The seminars would add more value if they had more value instead of being repetitive and self promoting. If I’m driving a couple of hours and spending time in a room for 5 more hours before driving home there better be some nuts and bolts teaching. On seminar weekends, I get the most out of the break when I catch up with people I only see there. Nice people, honest people, people who want something better out of life, mainly cross line people… oops!
    The majors are adventures with good people and a fun chance to boost friendships. But so is a caravan of co-workers and families to the State Park of your choice. My first major seemed like a total waste of time. I found out Team Approach was back and Power Player was the emphasis again. But I also saw some of the doctrine under the lights. I saw the hero worship in the ovations at inappropriate times. I didn’t go back until this year. The first was out of guilt for skipping so many. I quit about a dozen times that weekend. This summer I went again on the wave of hype about the pre-launch. It was summer – a good time to check out Columbus. Nothing different. Way too much hype and not much about each of our b-type businesses. Lots of emphasis on getting in to make money and staying in to make a difference. The product is a better you. Lofty ideals. Nice sentiment. But 13RTs, double RTs, 1 PC, 1 Double PC, 1 Triple PC, triple 100’s are only two scores of people out of that 11,000in attendance!
    They say to make yourself into the leader you want to have as a leader. We might believe that’s their goal… until we hear other stories.

    There certainly were many college age people at both majors this year. They see the environment they live in. Part time jobs, low paying temp work, short contracts for the educated are ahead in their life. They know one of their parents has been laid off in recent years only to find a call center to fill the gap. They don’t expect off shore jobs to come back. They worry about the junk they find at the grocery stores, the environment, the people who pull the strings in legislative circles to fill the pockets of certain friends. Why wouldn’t they latch on to the promises of autonomy and purpose that they see at an open meeting? With Team approach there are circles under their name that get them on stage for a walk and wave before they read the First Night book that was loaned to them. But there’s a CD pack at the back that can help. Credit cards can carry big balances.

  85. August 30, 2011 9:24 pm

    That was a great observation about the college-age people at the majors this year. While TEAM LIFE does appear to be offering them a way out, a close look at the numbers will show that few people do well enough to make a living.

  86. Interesting Words permalink
    October 5, 2011 1:53 pm

    I hate to bring up the Pastor Dickie subject, again, but if he wants to distance himself from TEAM, why are there certain people (found in the attached link) on his staff & leadership?

    http://www.allgrace.com/tabid/194/Default.aspx

    Wouldn’t you want to get as far away as possible? I am just a little confused …

    However, I do not know Pastor Dickie or the web that TEAM has placed on his families name. Can anyone shed some light on this?

  87. Speak Your Truth permalink
    October 5, 2011 2:33 pm

    Interesting Words~

    Who are the Certain People attached that would have you so confused about this? Shouldn’t you call Pastor Dickie yourself?….that would be best.

  88. Speak Your Truth permalink
    October 5, 2011 2:55 pm

    Better yet..Why wouldn’t you call those “Certain People” since that is what you are confused about…

  89. Interesting Words permalink
    October 5, 2011 3:17 pm

    SYT

    As I stated before, I don’t know Pastor Dickie or the entire situation. Just confused why Mark Paul and Don Freeze would be associated with him through church life, if he wants nothing to do with TEAM.

    I would love to speak with Pastor Dickie. One of his cd’s was the main reason I got started in the business and hearing of his departure was a big part of me getting out.

    Im just one who likes to learn the TRUTH.

    Thanks for taking the time to help Amthrax and others get the truth out. This blog saved me tons of money and got my time back.

    God bless!!

  90. Speak Your Truth permalink
    October 5, 2011 3:43 pm

    Interesting Words~

    Did you not know that Don Freeze is no longer with the Team? Maybe you have missed this but this has been stated on here many times. Do you know either of them personally? As far as I know Mark Paul is still with the team but if you know him then maybe you could call him?

    I do not blame you and I too and believe everyone wants the truth. There was a defender who came here and didn’t know Don left…he called him up, and then came back to tell us that, that was correct. We already knew he left and didn’t need the confirmation but he did, It helps to hear it right from them. I am glad this has helped you. Keep seeking and you will find.

    As far as Mark Paul is concerned, one could only guess. I have not talk with him personally.

  91. brent hansen permalink
    October 5, 2011 8:14 pm

    Just as a personal note of interest, is there a list available somewhere of all RTs or PCs that have left? I would be interested in knowing who is and isn’t involved anymore. I am very familiar with most who used to be “players” with Team. I walked away however when they went to MV and my team was destroyed by my upline.

  92. Speak Your Truth permalink
    October 5, 2011 8:32 pm

    Brent~

    Under the Qrush Post…John copied it August 20,2011 9:02pm.

    I couldn’t get it to copy and paste for some reason.

    This is a short list, there are many more turbo’s and thousands of others as you already know who make up each organization. It truly does not due it justice.

  93. brent hansen permalink
    October 5, 2011 8:52 pm

    Got it, as a matter of fact I do recall reading that list before. I hardly consider Legacy and company as RTs, PCs or anything. They all perfected the art of the scam while OW was still in diapers. I actually began with them the same one year after OW signed up in Amway. There is actually a very long story behind them coming and leaving, and they are just as crooked as the rest.

    It is interesting to know about the other “real” Team members however. I guess there are probably dozens of other turbos etc who left and went silent. These guys could all become potential allies if they are bitter enough to stand up for the truth. I believe many are embarrassed and simply choose to disappear.

  94. brent hansen permalink
    October 5, 2011 8:56 pm

    Wow…typo…I meant I began with them the same year OW started.

  95. Speak Your Truth permalink
    October 5, 2011 9:43 pm

    Brent~

    I agree some just walked away to never again go back, and some might be still embarrassed, but I think the majority; you would have to know that alot of those people have not forgotten the betrayal, ruined friendships, lies, disturbances this caused in families and their small communities and are still building those back up, it has had a tremendous negative ripple effect on many communities.

    Many credible leaders had been brought in from businesses, to the common factory workers and everything inbetween, their entire communities were rocked to the core by this LIE.. fake and fraudulant scheme.

    The biggest destruction for many were their teams were ripped to shreds, personal stolen, and people were asked to sell out their friends, and some lost their entire business because of these greedy power hungry people, people also lost their business by being told to put them in other family members names so they wouldn’t ‘lose their spot’; during the registration. Friends for years turned on those friends, because they were ‘following what Orrin & the Other Pc were doing.’ When people started piecing this together and seeing what really was being done to RANK the few…it was like fireworks went off.. It is insanity!

    It was the worst form of greed and unethical practices I have ever witnessed on a massive scale in my life.

    So, I know everyone is different in how they have put their lives back together, and moved on, after many years of lying to all those people in their communities. And to put it bluntly some just want to never look back, it was horrific, and devastating..too many families and friendships taxed and ruined. I don’t think people understand the magtitude of destruction and negative impact this has had on people and their communities and they want to rebuild was is really important.

    And some just want to live a normal life, enjoy their lives and families, because they sacraficed and left them for years and don’t want to lose any more of that precious time.

    I also know the beliefs of many who know Orrin & Company will reap what they have sown and have just plain, left it at that…but they are watching and know eventually it all comes back around.

  96. brent hansen permalink
    October 5, 2011 10:23 pm

    Sounds exactly like what happened with all of us here in the west who were attached to Legacy. I have really delved into this entire blog tonight, I am blown away with some of the testimony and comments that are here. Its not new news to me, just a witness to confirm what I have believed and despised for so long.

    You know Speak, the irony of all of this is as that all of them continue to pursue the dream that they can never have. None of them, Team or Legacy will ever achieve anything worth giving their souls for because it is all being built on a foundation of corruption. The very principles which they teach and promote are also the ones they do not follow.

    They have the power, intelligence and resources to create something great, something dynamic, and something life changing, but are so deeply seated in their arrogant paradigm, that they cannot see the forest for the trees.

    As soon as they realize that mlm is not a viable model, then the change can begin, and that is rare. Once they earn money from an mlm, then they believe that it is a viable model for everyone. So few of them understand the mathematics and mitigating factors that their judgments are totally clouded by greed. If they really wanted to reach a million people, and help implement change for the better, I believe it could be done. But at the present moment, none of them are the people who could do it.

  97. Speak Your Truth permalink
    October 6, 2011 7:13 am

    Brent~

    I couldn’t agree more. Thanks for taking the time to read this blog, I am sure you have see many of us in the ‘recovery’ process. I believe you lived what we have and know you understand the ripple effect this has on all the lives and their communities in a negative way. I forgot to mention which I believe is another real important area this effects in a big way, is the churches. Once this business hits a church, it creates division because they use it as a breeding ground for ‘recruitment’ and it destroys and destructs. Too sad and they continue to lie to themselves that they are the answer. As you said the principles they promote and teach aren’t anything of the reality and all of our experiences are Thee.. example of the truth in that.

    The nature of the business progressively breeds greed and arrogance. Thee ‘edification’ process is the worst detrimate to that entire industry. They create gods out of people and in turn those people begin to believe that about themselves to the point of no-one can ‘touch them’ ..they have created the worst egomanics that really believe they are superior. Very dangerous, especially on a spiritual level. They claim and pretend humility but their actions and words are polar opposite.

    When the corruption and destruction started showing up in our lives and no longer could the truth be denied…I had a very great friend who told me something that has and still does resinate. She said; “There are very FEW people who can dance at the TOP” in other words there are so few people who can remain with true principles once they have made it ‘big’. There are soooo many examples of this in every arena and proffession in life. People don’t have to look far to see this how ‘fame, money & success’. That is why I believe if you ever forget about the little guy or ever forget where you came from…it will lead you down a path into the most destructive cycle. I could tell you so many things they have said to verify this.

    I have witnessed this first hand with the Woodwards and PC, we knew them when they were broke, and somewhat humble, then we recognized the ‘change’ when the wealth ($) began to control their lives and their ego’s became larger than life. They think they are really good at hiding it…but I have news for them..they are self-deceived.

    It is as you have said cognitive dissonace. It never ceases to amaze me how the defenders come here and completely ignore the lives this has damaged. You cannot hurt and destruct and destroy people and their business, then expect them to praise you, (idolitry) and this industry as it is something that has such a positive impact on society and the best opprotunity in the world. There are consequences….

  98. Speak Your Truth permalink
    October 6, 2011 7:22 am

    BTW~

    As for me… it is those very people who I have witnessed.. in our own lives, that we built the business for years with, fell in love with these people and deeply care for and many cross-line that I know this has rocked to the very core…is the very reason.. why I continue to fight.

  99. Freedomhaha permalink
    November 8, 2011 12:42 pm

    I just quit LIFE before getting the “starter kit”. I had a decent business (breaking even after everything including travel, tools, MV) for starting in July. I am sure glad I got out, and this blog helped push me the last 1% I needed to leave. My experience was different than other people because I worked with some great people that I respect highly. Also, I firmly believe that my time on TEAM expanded my thinking as to what I can accomplish. Nothing that I want to do involves TEAM, but I did read some great books. I am just glad that I 1. Got out early and 2. am only 21 with a college education. While people can and do win at this business it always bothered me that I knew I was setting people up to fail in a way when I showed them the plan. If you are reading this and checking out the TEAM I have two things to say. First, go out and read the great books the recommend because for the most part they are awesome. Second, the people that are showing you the plan for the most part ARE good people just a little off base. Also, the “underbelly” of the TEAM is kind of scary!

  100. Robin permalink
    November 8, 2011 3:49 pm

    @Speak the Truth,

    Mark Paul is still with the Team and is the reason I left.

  101. John permalink
    November 8, 2011 7:47 pm

    Robin, you said you have been gone from Team for a few years. What did Mark Paul do to you that made you quit?

  102. Speak Your Truth permalink
    November 8, 2011 7:51 pm

    Robin~

    I ditto the question asked from John.

  103. Topher permalink
    January 24, 2012 6:34 pm

    The reason you see locations taken out is because of the introduction of web casting?!?! I would think it good business start in the information age to take advantage of the internet and technology; that’s my guess.

  104. webelieved permalink
    January 24, 2012 7:59 pm

    Topher- Are there @ 20,000 people at the majors like there was back in 2007? Also do you have a contract in your possesion signed by Orrin stating you own your business and your income is residual, ongoing? Did they say in the plan you could develop a residual, pipeline, passive income? Also do you know Orrin and the PC can take your teams for writing on this blog or for any other reason, and you have no legal recourse? Did you know they just did this to the Raatz for asking how they get paid? Just some questions I’m hoping you can answer. Thanks.

  105. Dan permalink
    March 13, 2012 9:12 am

    I am going to a LIFE meeting tonight, any advice? The meeting is in Pewaukee

  106. March 13, 2012 9:46 am

    @Dan – Start by reading the Anatomy of a TEAM LIFE Business Presentation post. At the bottom of the post, there is a link to 50+ questions that you could ask. Familiarize yourself with the background of LIFE and its leaders/founders by reading the LIFE TEAM Primer.

    That should be a good start. Let us know how the meeting goes!

  107. No Team For Me permalink
    March 13, 2012 10:16 am

    Dan – read those 50 questions and be prepared to ask them directly to the speaker and to any leader who comes up to you. Tell them you want straight answers. don’t let them sidestep the questions.

    Ask them what happened to Orrin’s personal mentor and pastor Dickie? Ask them why the Morgan’s business was taken from them. Ask them to see the policies & proceedures. Then ask them why you would want to join something that allows them to take your business from you. ask them if they are aware the business can be taken from them.

    Ask them why Team had 25,000 people at majors in Kentucky just 4 years ago and they only have 6-8,000 today. Ask them why you would need to sell those tools to your own friends when you could just recommend and let them get the books cheaper on Amazon or Ebay.

    ask them what level they are at. Then ask them how long they have been associated with Team. Not Life (which just started in November). Ask them why they are not getting the results of the 2-5 year plan.

    Ask them if they are aware of the $3 million orrin received from monaVie. Ask them if they are aware of the bankruptcies of Darkangelo and Huber.

    Most importantly, wait for an answer and do not let them spin the conversation. They are masters of avoiding any answers.

  108. Finally permalink
    March 13, 2012 5:05 pm

    We, did they ever hit 20,000 people at major? From what I understand they never hit over 12, 000 I do have some contacts that used to be in the team office, I will check. I am almost positive they never hit 20K unless you talk to them it was more like 30K LOL

  109. webelieved permalink
    March 13, 2012 6:41 pm

    Finally- LOL! Yeah I wonder what the actual number was?That was a number I believe I heard Orrin say. Let us know what you find out! 😉
    Was the largest Team major in St Louis or Louisville in 2007?

  110. Dan permalink
    March 14, 2012 5:07 am

    Hey Guys,
    That was the longest meeting I was ever involved with. I’ll say they were both good speakers. At the end I asked a guy that has been in 3 years, what I needed to do to make 6000 grand a month. He didn’t know, then I said 4000, still didn’t know. 3000? not sure, he said you needed around 75 in your uni to make around 1500-2000. I figure after 3 years of working at McDonalds I would be making at least that.
    A comment was made about “FAITH”, and I said that was a poor comment to make. When I was asked why, I said what if I’m athiest, you would have lost my interest right away. He said they will address it with the leaders.
    The guy that brought me has 3 people in his uni, and I asked his mentor why he wasn’t spilling to his team. He said he was still a student, and in the learning process, sheesh.
    Dan

  111. TruthSeeker permalink
    March 14, 2012 6:30 am

    @Dan, hilarious! A 3 year learning process? Amazing!

  112. switch permalink
    March 14, 2012 7:03 am

    Imagine that…..Dan asked questions, and they don’t get answered!

    Some things just never change, do they?

    Classic!

  113. No Team For Me permalink
    March 14, 2012 7:26 am

    Finally – they really did have well over 20,000 people one time. That was during the non-compete when everyone plugged into the Freedom Arena in Kentucky and they had another 2,000 in the overflow arena across the property. This was the only time to my knowledge Team ever had more than around 12,000 people.

    This was when everyone plugged in – Haugen, Harteis, Florence, Libby, DiSalvatore, Goetschel, Smith, Crawford, and a bunch of other teams that have now left. If you remember, the whole weekend was about ‘leadership’ because they could not talk about any specific business yet.

    (Orrin was probably still in the middle of doing his benchmarking study to see who would pay him the most to come to them 🙂 )

    By the time the next event rolled around, numbers started to dip and shortly after that is when Haugen, Florence, Crawford, Goetschel started seeing Orrin’s true colors and left. Once that happened, numbers tanked quick to around 6-7,000 at majors.

  114. Speak Your Truth permalink
    March 14, 2012 9:23 am

    Dan~

    Great job with the questions and thanks for sharing your experience! Cheers to your critical thinking!

    Wow, After 3 Years, the guy only has 3 people in his 2nd team? Where is the noble and proven system and we serve and help others win, sounds like his ‘mentor’ is failing him. It also sounds like he fits the definition of insanity quite well, (the rhetoric they like using against others) and this would be evident how well ‘their proven system’ and ‘mentoring/coaching’ is (not) working.

    I agree Switch…Classic. 🙂

    NTFM~ Thanks for sharing that. The drastic decline in ‘numbers’, should be enough evidence for any ‘follower’ to wake up, as the article in this post demonstrates.

    You can’t get to a ‘million’ going backwards. The goal was a ‘million’ butts in seats, no evidence of them even catching those old numbers, due to the backwards growth and all those you mentioned (plus) who no longer will ‘bring’ the numbers for them.

    But then will they ever be transparent and honest or really show what the true numbers are?…Don’t hold your breath…no reason to believe they will, they have always just hyped it up with ‘exsplosive growth’ and no evidence in numbers to back it.

    We all know they track and have these numbers right down to the last ticket sold and they Could share their ‘real ticket and system sales’ and any legit business would that continually spouts out numbers to the public and expects others to take their ‘word’; business who back up their word with facts; at least those who don’t depend on deception and hype to deceive others just to try and keep them ‘believing’.

    Honesty is what builds Trust…something I have personally witnessed and believe the PC to have a serious ‘lack of’.

    All my comments are based on years of experience, opinion, and or the facts that have come to light.

  115. Speak Your Truth permalink
    March 14, 2012 9:34 am

    It really is tragic, after 3 years the guy doesn’t even know enough about his “own” business to tell you, with confidence how you or anyone else can make money or has to still check with the ‘leaders’ on questions that he should from day one, already had answers for. ‘His business’.. is a financial disaster already happening. Too sad.

  116. Dan permalink
    March 14, 2012 10:01 am

    Hey Speak,
    That’s 3 total. Not a second team, 3 all together. One is his brother,non active, the other a cousin, also invisible. So in all reality just 1, himself.

  117. March 14, 2012 10:26 am

    @Dan – Thanks for the recap of your meeting. You asked some good questions.

  118. Speak Your Truth permalink
    March 14, 2012 10:53 am

    Dan~

    Oh geez…that is even more disheartening. WOW, I hope he ‘wakes up’ out of the blinded stuper soon. Who goes into “business for yourself, but not by yourself” and that is the kind of ‘results’ you get after 3 years?! They have bragged they have a “proven system” for 2 decades…and were saying that back when they began in Amway!

    Nothing has changed.. but sadly, they will ‘blame’ your friend (and your friend will believe it) for his ‘lack of results’.. he hasn’t done ‘enough’ or ‘learned’ enough, listened to ‘enough’ CDs, books or Show the Plan ‘enough’ or fully ‘committed’ or threw his ‘heart over the bar’ or ‘earned it’.

    When in fact the TOP have designed the comp plan and know exactly how many will fail. They are ‘looking’ for those ‘followers’, like your friend who want it badly enough, who have been sucked in emotionally; more than likely to ignore the facts and the other 96% who will never be able to pay for their ‘autoship’ or the 99% who will NEVER make it “Big”.. to ‘millionaire’ status. IMO, He is obviously blindly ‘believing’ and following, under undue influence, and lost any common sense or critical thinking.

    Where is his ‘amazing’… ‘serving’.. ‘uplines’..’leaders’… that have all the answers? Why hasn’t business grown any in 3 years?

    It truly is shameful how evident their “proven system” (only works with keeping followers uniformed, deceived or their minds numb and controlled) otherwise it doesn’t work and how the top heavy comp plan works to suck the money from the bottom to the ‘Top’; those less than 1%.

    So, sorry for your friend Dan, but I am glad you are a critical thinker and have seen right through it, hopefully your friend will sooner rather than any later figure out what you have too. 🙂

  119. Dan permalink
    March 14, 2012 11:18 am

    There was a speaker there named Matt Mielke, I was told he makes over 25,000 a month, anyone heard of him? Dan and Lisa Hawkins? Steve and Jamie? never got the last names. All making the 25 G’s a month. According to the comp plan break down, I don’t see it ever being that much.

  120. March 14, 2012 12:36 pm

    @Dan – All three of the people you mentioned have “leadership” blogs.

    Matt Mielke’s blog can be found here. Dan Hawkins’ blog is here. Steve and Jamie Leurquin are here.

  121. TruthSeeker permalink
    March 14, 2012 3:42 pm

    @Dan, imagine 36 months @ probably $500-$600 a month (since he is obviously totally plugged in) only equals about $20,000. Your friend has spent $20,000 for nothing. What a travesty.

  122. billy permalink
    March 14, 2012 9:03 pm

    TEAM Talk message indicated that Bill & Jackie Lewis just went Triple 1000. Fired up?

  123. Speak Your Truth permalink
    March 14, 2012 9:11 pm

    Dan~

    Along with what Amthrax gave you here is the Peter’s story which will give you more information on those couples. The Peters are the ones who personally sponsored the Hawkins, this might give you more understanding:

    https://amthrax.wordpress.com/2012/01/29/reader-report-letter-from-former-round-table-members-mark-and-raquel-peters/

    Funny that you would be told All of them make 25 grand? The Hawkin’s are PC and the Mielke and Lerquins weren’t even close, unless they too were given groups, like the Hawkins, they would not all be at the same level.

    So I highly doubt they are All making 25 grand per month, but none the less it could get them in trouble. That would be a good question to have them show you their tax return and make them prove their claims.

    Dan you might be interested in this article also and can read it for yourself from Grimes & Reese legal firm. If they won’t give you proof of their claims, you could file a complaint with the FTC or the Wisconsin AG. According to this article it is the #1 reason for deceptive practices.

    http://www.mlmlaw.com/mlm-deceptive-trade-practices.html

  124. switch permalink
    March 15, 2012 5:19 am

    Dan says-
    “….All making the 25 G’s a month.”

    Considering this new LIEf system just launched a short 4-5 months ago, I’m finding that comment very hard to believe.

    I can’t believe they have the balls to tell such BS!

  125. Finally permalink
    March 15, 2012 8:28 am

    Thanks no team!! So in reality after 19 years in the business the guru of networking cannot produce more than a crowd of 12, 000, which in turn means that since around 2007 he has had a zero net increase in numbers….right? How in the heck are they going to millions ??? Remember they control, the key word is control, all three C’s now. That was supposedly the missing piece of the puzzle ………….

  126. No Team For Me permalink
    March 15, 2012 7:10 pm

    Finally – an interesting point is that he is averaging somewhere around 6-8,000 right now, but that includes the groups stolen from Florence, Haugen, Crawford, Ledbetter, and other Dexter groups. Remember Newtons, Mattis, Hamilton, Robson, Harteis, Frey, Johnson, Paullin, Sitzler and many other big leaders in Team – really were not part of Team. they were all in the groups of other Diamonds in the old Amway business.

    So if you took all those groups away, I’d be surprised if there’s anywhere over 2,000 people who truly originated from orrin’s downline.

    therefore, if you don’t count theft of groups, Teams amazing growth rate is from just under 12,000 at the largest truly Team event before the Quixtar lawsuit, to less than 2,000 true Team lineage now. Wow! That’s a group I’d like to learn from 🙂

  127. No Team For Me permalink
    March 15, 2012 7:14 pm

    Just because someone stole a Picasso doesn’t make them an expert on art.

  128. Speak Your Truth permalink
    March 16, 2012 6:35 am

    No Team For Me~

    I agree and who do you suppose inherited all those groups that none of them earned, the ones they are touting as ‘movin-on’,the whole industry seems it just recycles people and Imo, devalues people. Those who ‘inherited’ are now claiming they ‘earned it’ and taking income from them and the most despicable is how that is misleading others so they ‘keep believing’?

    What would Orrin have done to anyone of those ‘leaders’ if the shoe was on the other foot and the majority of the team would have been solicited to go with anyone of those you mention; Billy Florence, Randy Haugen or anyone but the Team and they were now collecting off those?

    It’s amazing how people think any of them are who they say they are! Those that solicited and took those freebie teams, which goes against everything they ‘teach’, but when the end justifies the means hypocrisy reigns and anything goes. Those that are now collecting on and misleading others with including o and the pc will someday pay the price in one way or another (they all know who they are and what they have done).

    It doesn’t not matter, nor will it stop the price from being paid in full and it doesn’t change it because they have ‘justified’ it in their own minds…inescapably… they will reap what they have sown in tens of thousands of others lives.

  129. No Team For Me permalink
    March 16, 2012 2:40 pm

    Speak – I agree! Orrin would have blown a gasket if anyone did to him what he did to Florence, Haugen, etc. The hypocrisy is unreal.

  130. Soon2Bout permalink
    June 23, 2012 7:16 pm

    Here is a quick text I got from a Crossline

    CL: Hey kiddo, miss ya tons, haven’t seen you at a Tues in awhile
    ME: yeah, i’ve been busy.
    CL: I bet, your team (meaning my taproot, not his) is exploding. Apparently you guys whooped our asses in the Major Roll Out Challenge ((our PC leaders will have a ‘fun’ contest among crosslines and whoever hits 10/4 first wins something stupid))
    ME: Oh, I bet we whooped your ass!
    CL: yeah, there is so much pressure on breaking power players this time around, because there were hardly any last time.
    ME: oh, I bet there is pressure :/
    CL: Let me guess, you don’t qualify this time??
    ME: no
    CL: go get fired up!!
    ME: I’d rather fire up a grill and cook and swim in my pool
    CL: Ohh, planning you’re freedom day I see.
    ME: I am free.
    CL: WHAT??? How many PP did you break girl?
    ME: none.
    CL: I’m confused.
    ME: by ‘whooping’ your teams ass means we only grew 10/4 first. All those 4 people can no longer afford system. And they don’t go to Tuesdays. I think they were brunt when people were trying to fire them up.
    CL: WHAT?!?!?
    ME: what does fire up mean anyway? Why does everyone say it all the damn time?
    CL: it means go crazy! build build build.
    ME: i did get fired up…team drove me crazy..now I am building my dreams else where…I actually built my computer desk!
    CL: I do not believe you.
    ME: wanna come over, hang out, and i’ll let you look at my downline…on both legs
    CL: Okay, how about Tuesday?
    ME: see ya then.

  131. webelieved permalink
    June 23, 2012 7:31 pm

    Oh boy…..That was funny and sad all at the same time. Thanks for sharing. Please let us know how it goes.

  132. webelieved permalink
    June 23, 2012 7:34 pm

    He is clearly stunned.

  133. Soon2Bout permalink
    June 23, 2012 8:39 pm

    Him and I got in around the same time. We had exchanged phone numbers before listening to the Crosslining cd. Haha, and it did nothing. So basically our leaders were telling that part of their legs that the leg im on is kicking ass and they need to get a move on…and how we are exploding. omgggg explodinggggg. into..nothing. sad. This is proof TEAM/LIEf is going backwards. No growth…anywhere.

  134. webelieved permalink
    June 24, 2012 4:32 am

    More deception! I know of a Diamond/PC, while in the juice business break a bunch of Rubies, them and their teams all paraded across the Team stage as if they hit these new levels organically and wholla………none of them ever hit Ruby/10000 again! They were not even close. The Rubies only hanging on 2500-4000 most weeks! But they were the examples to follow for the whole Team! If people only knew how they were lied to all that time. It was done by planned volume loading on the bottom, which is against the rules and possibly the law!
    It also was reported someone hit Round Table by some in their teams signing up their kids etc on system before the major. These people were not the least bit interested in the Team!

    But hey it kept people “believing”. Discusting hey.

  135. webelieved permalink
    June 24, 2012 4:45 am

    It is really sick they can say whatever the hell they want and there is no way for you to verify it’s the truth. There also are no checks and balances on the PC, they can do whatever the hell they want.

    ” Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely.Great men are almost always bad men, even when they exercise influence and not authority, still more when you superadd the tendency or the certainty of corruption by authority. ” John Dalberg-Acton

  136. webelieved permalink
    June 24, 2012 4:50 am

    Soon2Bout- Their are others that found out similar things as you from their crossline! I think it is hilarious you are talking to them. I wish I would’ve gotten all my crossline’s numbers! LOL! I loved those people. They are still being lied to.
    Crosslining was another way they could control information and manipulate us. Good for you for telling him the truth! Competition/promotions between crossline was another way Orrin and the PC used to get us motivated. I think I read here that some who always saying they were quad pp or something was fixed. Maybe it was FINALLY who told the story?

  137. Speak Your Truth permalink
    June 24, 2012 10:46 am

    Soon2Bout~

    Thanks for sharing…. that is Funny!! I love the getting together on “Tue”…hahaha. I have to give a Big thanks to All cross-lines because they have helped me tremendously with the ‘bigger picture’, gave me clairity and confirmation and a whole lot more!! 🙂

    It is one of their ‘cardinal rules’ that is tightly controlled and be prepared for those who uplines find out you are ‘cross-lining’!!…There is always a manager standing by ready to report on you..lol!

    I have even seen where some who have family members who were recruited into cross-line teams, sad.

    Glad to see you are Free…that is what I call a Victory! Keep sharing, you are making a difference!

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