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Tyson from the Midwest Wants His Brother Out Of Orrin Woodward’s LIFE

August 22, 2011

Tyson from the Midwest has never been a part of TEAM. His brother, on the other hand, has been a member for the past four years. Tyson wants him out, and he’s written a letter to all to share his opinions and thoughts on Orrin Woodward.

Dear Amthrax.

I’ll start off being concise: My brother is deep in the clutches of the TEAM. He’s been part of the Team for better than 4 years and has “drank the cool-aid” on the LIFE product crap. There are times where I feel like I don’t even know him anymore… What do I do to get him out?

Here’s Tyson’s complete letter warning about Orrin Woodward and the TEAM. I’ve made minor changes to Tyson’s letter to improve its clarity and readability.

Orrin Woodward may be a convincing salesman, but that’s all he is. He was fired from Quixtar/Amway for a reason. Even Forbes magazine states that Orrin doesn’t even sell MonaVie but rather the hype: “Woodward quickly realized how important sales tools are to multilevel marketers.

Tools encourage recruits to reject doubters and, if money fails to materialize, to blame themselves and keep trying. Tools can themselves be a gold mine. That was a lesson Woodward learned from Dexter Yager, a former beer salesman and Amway distributor who set up a highly successful sales tools business…” (Forbes)

As far as Orrin Woodward being such a good Christian goes, I ask you: What “Good Christian” would lie to his business prospects about where the goods they were to market originated? Because that is the one of the primary reasons why he and Chris Brady were fired from Quixtar/Amway. If he’s such a Christian, why has he created a sales environment surrounding a product that makes bold claims of the product’s qualities but has VERY little in hard proof based on empirical evidence?

I won’t be so bold to call it lies, but it’s definitely disingenuous. I know that the majority of TEAM members profess to respect the Bible, so I ask them to consider this: Matthew 7:16: By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? Orrin Woodward makes millions off of selling words to people he claims are his friends and family. Orrin Woodward supports recruiting for independent business through personal relationships and encourages engaging fellow church members. If Christian means being an emulator of Christ then I’d say that there are some serious oversights. Christ didn’t use his movement to make money or do business—in fact, Christ was opposed to that, so opposed that it is the ONLY account of Jesus being stirred to using physical force to oppose it. It’s pretty clear in the gospel (Mark 11:15–19, 11:27–33, Matthew 21:12–17, 21:23–27 and Luke 19:45–48, 20:1–8) “And Jesus went into the temple of God, and cast out all of them who sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves, And said unto them, It is written, My house shall be called the house of prayer; but ye have made it a den of thieves.”

I could go on and on about my opinions about how Orrin Woodward uses a connection to religion to prey upon the classic conditioning of church goers to trust things told to them in the context of Christianity; however, I’ll try to keep my rant focused on one hypothetical example/argument that I feel most strongly about: In my opinion, the average church goer would not give credence to a business acquaintance who told them that the wine they were offering was representative of everlasting life; however, once a month in most Churches the sacrament of communion is performed and that is the message that is accepted by most participants because the sacrament itself is bookended by a religious message presented by an official of the religious institution and functions on a basis of trusting that said presiding official is trust worthy and in concordance with The Almighty; more succinctly known simply as: Trust by Association.

Taking the logic a step further, you can see how Orrin, who in my opinion is just a modern day huckster, has built what is in many ways a brilliant (albeit religiously unethical) sales pitch. He uses the same base model churches do: Start off speaking about God (god by definition, being a perceived authority of greater knowledge and power than yourself, thus creating a hierarchy of value in regard to the religious message placing the speaker in an authoritative position above the individual’s own reasoning facilities—but I digress), follow that with using light references to trusted scripture in order to establish credibility based the associated trust Christians have in The Bible.

Once trust is gained, present the persuasion message, and close with more references to scripture to once again capitalize on said associated trust. The method is “brilliant” in its simplicity, as the serial position effect, a concept based on memory studies, will tell you that human recall is most accurate in regard to the primacy and recency of a message. In other words, people will remember the first and last aspects of their interactions with others while the intermediate details, or “stuff in the middle” are the most likely details that are subconsciously supplemented by what the individual their self suspects is consistent with the beginning and end of the message regardless of what is actually presented.

Thus, when TEAM-Members listen to Orrin’s messaging they are left with a feeling of: “most of what he said sounds simple, and I know he’s a Christian because that is what he open and closed his message with sounds like what I hear at church, so I guess I’ll go along with it…” I suspect that an argument that Orrin is unknowingly benefiting from the religious association strategically placed in his message and isn’t trying to gain benefit based on his audience’s commonalities, and quite honestly: that’s a huge pile of B.S.

You can tell this simply by the fact he uses the term Guru, instead of Expert. As Guru, by definition means exactly the same thing as Expert in regard to defining a level of proficiency with a skill or methodology; however, the word Guru has VERY specific connotations as not just being an expert in one subject matter or another, but an expert with religious and spiritual authority.

In my opinion, Orrin is at best a self-deluded egotistical megalomaniac, and at worst is a malicious autocratic egotistical megalomaniac, either way, he’s an egotistical megalomaniac.

In closing, I’d just like to ask this Orrin’s defenders this hypothetical question: Would Orrin’s TEAM message have been as efficacious if all the religious and political references were removed from it and it was just a simple sales pitch based the merits of Multi-Level Marketing? Maybe it’s just me, but I find it ironic that the MonaVie product has some subtle similarities in its concoction and marketing as sacramental wine. Perhaps it’s the claim that MonaVia is some sort of cure all that will lead to a long and fruitful life and the claim that sacramental wine is representative of everlasting life… -Just saying.

Thanks Again,

-Tyson from the Midwest

Orrin, if you’re reading this (and I know you are), remember what your alter-ego or “friend” Qrush once wrote: “The above statements and comments are based on my opinions as I seek to understand why a six time MLM failure would advertise this pitiable condition. Qrush is merely seeking for the truth and appreciates freedom of speech in the USA.” Don’t go suing Tyson for having difference of opinion with you.

Readers – how can we help Tyson get his brother out of the clutches of TEAM and Orrin Woodward’s new LIFE?

Read More Ex-TEAM Reader Stories »

Editor’s note: At the request of the original poster, removed his full name from the post

107 Comments leave one →
  1. August 22, 2011 11:03 am

    Woodward is quite the guy. Even when he “allows” comments on his blog, oops, pardon me, in a “merciful act” on his behalf, he doesn’t even allow the comment to be published!

    Ha! How’s that for honest and open? The reader doesn’t even get to read the comment, rather he is faced with having to take Orrin’s interpretation on faith (again).

    Doesn’t look like anything is going to change any time soon in Woodward land.

    All I can say is that ANYONE can do Amway. Woodward is the only person that Amway has publicly kicked out and for all intents and purposes accused him of being a liar.

    He’s not even good enough for Amway! Yep, that’s who I’d be hitching my wagon to…not.

    Orrin depends on people not asking questions. That’s much is abundantly clear. As to the ins and outs of the tools business, there is NOTHING clear.

    Why in the name of all that is holy does someone have to sign the tool profit agreement in his office and is not allowed to take it out of the office?

    Why? I think it’s because Orrin has something to hide. But that’s just my opinion.

  2. August 22, 2011 11:40 am

    I know that I’m going to sound harsh, but once in TEAM, a person is going to stay in TEAM until they hit rock bottom. That’s what happened to me, and that’s what happened to so many other people that I’ve read stories of. I left TEAM when I hit rock bottom – my credit ran out.

    I wish TEAM have kept religion out of their business. I may not have even have considered it then.

  3. August 22, 2011 12:08 pm

    One of the defenses of Amway is that there aren’t many formal complaints to the BBB and FTC. Maybe former TEAM members who got scammed should file complaints against the scammers.

  4. No Team For Me permalink
    August 22, 2011 1:09 pm

    Tyson – My personal opinion is the same as Webelieved. He described it to a tee. They even make jokes about the outside world thinking they are a cult. that way if a family member brings up the term ‘cult’, it reinforces the belief that those leaders in Team must be pretty smart, they even warned me about people claiming this was a cult.

    I was completely indoctrinated, and unknowingly passed it along to others. The hardest part was the exit. Once I started even the smallest amount of questioning – I was immediately an outcast. And all these people who used to flock to me to shake my hand and tell me how great I was, suddenly wanted nothing to do with me. After all the time and energy I put into Team, I don’t have a single person from Team who has given me even a phonecall since I left (With the exception of 2 people who needed something or were digging for information to report back).

    They work hard on closing out information from outside sources. They keep you so busy listening to CD’s and reading Team-approved books and going to meetings, so that the small amount of free time you do have will be needed for chores, etc – in which case you have no connection with those outside Team.

  5. Major Dave Stoner permalink
    August 22, 2011 1:47 pm

    NT4Me, I was in the same position as you were in when I quit. Never see or hear from former TEAM friends after I left. But I became closer to the friends who quit TEAM. I guess I dont miss them at all because they were two-faced asses anyhow. To Tyson, I hope you do get your brother out before he ends up broke because thats usually how it ends.

  6. Steve (Peachy) permalink
    August 22, 2011 2:23 pm


    I don’t have anything to add from what Webelieved has posted. It is very unfortunate that we have all gone through those things he has so well described at one level or another. We all here wish you well in dealing with your brother, and you would do well in listening to Webelieveds’ advise.

  7. August 22, 2011 3:48 pm

    Webelieved’s post reminded me of something my upline would always say (to me, and overheard in group conversations) – “So-and-so doesn’t want to be successful” – every time someone would mention that a prospect have turned down the business opportunity or a TEAM member quits. Tyson’s brother could very well be hearing the same thing I was hearing, or at least something similar to that line.

  8. Big sister permalink
    August 22, 2011 3:52 pm

    Tyson – It’s your sister here! I know that we were all somewhat skeptical and surprised when our otherwise intelligent and hard-working brother announced his decision to join the TEAM. At the time I thought it would be a short-lived endeavor and when the “get-rich-quick” promise didn’t pan out, he would move on. Little did we know that this would be an ongoing threat not only to our brother, his family, and his finances, but it would begin to drive a wedge between us as siblings because none of us joined at his urging. I have not seen any financial gain for him; in fact, it seems the opposite is true as he is now trying to sell his home and “downsize.” It breaks my heart and angers me to no end to see his faith exploited in a way that I can hardly believe. He wants so desperately to be loved by others; he is a very charismatic person, but also seems to crave that acceptance from others. I love him unconditionally and I give you, Tyson, lots of credit for delving into this more deeply. I feared for him, but naively believed he would be able to leave when things got rough. I now see that is not the case, but will be here with open arms when he hits rock bottom and finally gets out…someday. I only hope he sees the love in your concern for him and the rest of the family. Stay the course little brother and we will all make it through!

  9. Speak Your Truth permalink
    August 22, 2011 5:30 pm

    Tyson and Big Sister~

    It is amazing and humbling to read your comments and the unconditional love you both have show for your brother. We all to some degree have experienced and feel your pain as we have been through this illusion from hell with first hand experience from the inside. Tyson you are amazingly accurate with your post.

    And even though you are from the outside and trying to help your brother we also know this affects everyone in your life and no one is without suffering. It is like an addiction where it doesn’t just affect the user but all who are touched by the user.

    There is such a thing as an intervention, but I would get the expert advise as everyone is sharing on here before you attept it. As weblieved mentioned Steve Hassan, and his book, he was saved from the moonies by that very approach, because his family loved him dearly, and could see they were losing their son, they wanted to save him too and did. Fortunately, there are quite a few experts and so much information on cults today, that you can get on the internet and library, which you can contact, read, learn from, and ask for help.

    That is one of the Teams MO’s (also in all cults) they strip you of your prior support system and create a dependency on the group, then create the us vs them, you probably are experiencing. I already know you have witnessed this by your comments. Hang in there you both sound like you are a great support system and also very intelligent. You will figure this out, seek the help you need and I believe you will find it.

    We will be rooting for you, we are here for you as support, and will continue to play our part. 🙂

  10. Dorothy permalink
    August 22, 2011 4:36 pm

    This commenter requested that her comments be removed from this site.

  11. Tyson from the Midwest permalink
    August 26, 2011 8:44 am

    Hey everyone, I have been heartily encouraged by your outpouring of helpful advice and support. I have had one fairly candid conversation with my brother over the phone and am planning on following it up with a longer and more in depth conversation as soon as our schedules allow. Currently I have been recovering from corrective sinus surgery and tonsillectomy, so I’ve been out of commission for the last week. I should be fully mended by the end of next week, and then it will be back to the chore of trying to help my brother break free of the TEAM. I haven’t started my reading assignments, but will soon (thanks for the book suggestions). I will say this: I know from personal experience with other sorts of life change,and that’s that true change comes from within, and that I most desire help in drawing my brother’s attention to a motivation to inspire him to change.

    Editor’s note: removed Tyson’s full name at his request

  12. outsider permalink
    August 27, 2011 1:51 pm

    Does anyone here remember a specific book that was recommended at one point, apparently written by a woman author revealing her experiences in an MLM cult with particular attention to the religious abuse angle? I’m pretty sure I read one of you folks here mention this somewhere, but now I can’t seem to find it, and I can’t recall who it was that brought it up, either. ? If anybody remembers it, I’d really appreciate the author and/or title. (Sorry to say, my family members are still drinking the koolaid. 😦 )

    [BTW, I’ve been following your discussions lately and I must say . . . how positively poetic will it be when a bunch of you use REAL networking skills and REAL teamwork to bring down a couple of the cons!?! Stranger things have happened, you know . . . ! 😉 ]

  13. August 27, 2011 1:59 pm

    Would that be Ruth Carter’s Behind the Smoke and Mirrors? – She works behind-the-scenes in one of the Amway Systems’ business. Not sure how much of a focus is on the religious abuse angle, though.

  14. Speak Your Truth permalink
    August 27, 2011 11:04 pm


    You could also read the one Amthrax said, but I believe you are referring to;
    “All That Glitters Is Not God” by Athena Dean and believe it was “John” who put it on here.

    I got it from the library (for free 🙂 ) and it is my next book, after I finish reading;
    “Cults In Our Midst” by Margaret Singer with Janja Lalich (by the way is a MUST read for all on here because it explains the process of what ALL of us and Others (that are still in), did and are going through.) 🙂

  15. Speak Your Truth permalink
    August 27, 2011 11:08 pm

    Tyson ~

    Good luck with your recovery for both you and your brother! 🙂 Hope you can keep us posted.

    Editor’s note: removed Tyson’s full name at his request

  16. Milan K permalink
    August 28, 2011 7:52 am

    But I guess it is alright for guys like Tony Robbins to sell his packages and cd’s?

    The Body You Deserve
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    Price: $199.00

    Weight Loss Package:
    The Body You Deserve plus The Path to Permanent Weight Loss
    Price: $349.00 –
    (A $49.00 Savings)

    Weight Loss Bundle:
    The Body You Deserve, The Path to Permanent Weight Loss & Living Light Supplement Pack
    Price: $429.00 –
    (A $108.00 Savings)

    Call 800-519-3510 or Click Here to Call

  17. August 28, 2011 8:41 am

    @Milan K – You’re missing the point! Tony Robbins isn’t selling a “business” where he says “You too…can become rich like me!” Just get into business with me! This is HIS business. No mistake about that!

    TEAM is Orrin’s business….and nobody else’s!!! Contrary to what they say from stage or tell you face to face! If Orrin and the boys want to jump into the Tony Robbins world and sell motivational stuff….go ahead! That’s NOT what they are doing! They are getting people involved who wouldn’t normally be looking for these materials, on the chance that this “business” is the answer to their financial problems. In reality it only adds to it!

  18. Milan K permalink
    August 28, 2011 8:56 am

    I do see your point on Robbins, I guess I just missed the venomous hatred spewed toward tony. If you objectively look at the content TEAM provides excellent personal growth material at walmart prices for the every day joe. My issue with this TEAm Hate Blog is the erronous informetaion throughout. I keep a running total of my expenses as I am involved with NUMEROUS businesses and I became involved with TEAM through Mona Vie. As a matter of fact, the Pulse Juice helped me lower my Bad cholesterol so I am off the statins. The lab tests proved it and made a believer out of me , and my Doctor. So that got me going and when I saw the Leadership material, I am using it and i hate to tell you, if someone is pending the exorbitant amount of money on this as you claim, then they obviously missed the Finance package which is one of the best sellers! Someone maxing out a credit card is simply someone displaying the continuos poor habits that they have exhibited their entire life, unfortunate as it may be. I never thought or heard from the TEAM that this should be their ONLY line of work, they profess GET A JOB, get income and improve yourself through the TEAM system and if you are a good student, you can have success. What is wrobg with that? That is no much more of a scam than Jose down the street going to College on my DIME at the tune of $15,000 a semester and I am paying for it so he can get educated and be a slave to a corporation. Are you saying that Mona Vie’s claims that they have created over 100 millionaires before their 6 year anniversary is false? What about the income disclosure statement? Is that a lie to? You need to look at the previous posts here stating “lies” about what the products cost and other untruths…..

  19. Speak Your Truth permalink
    August 28, 2011 10:03 am


    What are you talking about? Show us where anyone spewed, “venomous hatred spewed toward tony.” Not only can you NOT stay in the thread you are arguing in, you are way off topic.

    Did you even read this post, you should; you might learn how damaging to others this scam you are defending is. This post was written by someone who isn’t even in, only experiencing the damage it is doing to their family. What part do you not get? Did you come to argue or are you trying to ‘convince’ us of something we spent way more years building and already know the costs and not just monetarily, but your too green to understand that yet.

    Or perhaps you came to spread illegal claims about your juice?

    My issue with people like you is your hate you show towards others and you don’t have a single clue what you are talking about. Read this post and answer Tyson’s question then read rest of the blog.

    You don’t seem to care about spreading illegal claims, tells us a lot about your character and how you don’t follow the Companies own P&P, (the one you don’t own, nor do you own the TEAM, so tell us how that is a B-type business LOL) not to mention the FTC, and other organizations that you can get in trouble spreading those claims.

    You state again; “As a matter of fact, the Pulse Juice helped me lower my Bad cholesterol so I am off the statins.” What part of ‘illegal’, do you not understand?

    When did the Team start touting; GET A JOB, LOL, when they figured out people like you will need one so you can turn your earnings over to them to pay for that system that will supposedly get you success? I pity you, you haven’t a clue.

    Thanks for coming,it justs shows others what we already know, you are blindly following and obviously repeating only what you are told. In other words you have surrendered your own critical thinking have not even checked to see what you are repeating is truth or a lie, you also show people your lack of integrity and that would be a sign to not get in business with you.

    Too Sad.

  20. Used to be "all-in" permalink
    August 28, 2011 10:12 am

    Milan K – Not sure if you’ve asked your upline “how do I go fast?”, but I’m sure they will show you the “Power Player” checklist once you’re gotten enough CD’s in you and you’re ready for it. You mentioned above:

    “when I saw the Leadership material, I am using it and i hate to tell you, if someone is (s)pending the exorbitant amount of money on this as you claim, then they obviously missed the Finance package which is one of the best sellers!”

    Well, since you seem to think $500 per month is a ridiculous number to spend on “your” business (which maybe it would be, if you’re only giving partial effort…but then you’d have a 0% chance of success, rather than 1%), I pulled out my handy-dandy Power Player checklist (and also checked current prices on the EBC and MV virtual office) and started going down the list:

    1. You are “on system” – subscribing to the full training system
    – Leadership package – $111 per month
    – 2 Standing Order Tickets (if single, just one) – $50 / month

    Now as you’ll find out as you get more experience, the “full” training system won’t be enough if you really want to make it big. They will also STRONGLY recommend the AGO Series ($21 / month, DVD of month ($10), 2nd Book of Month ($15), Leadership Book of Month ($15) and additional SOT’s (up to a total of 4, or $100 / month) which will “help” push you to go Each One, Reach One each month and reach your Turbo goals. Also, you’ll eventually start qualifying to receive consignment tickets from your upline…now in a perfect world, every single person in your downline would pay you for the seminar tickets that you move to them each month, but I’ll guarantee you that you’ll spend a whole lot of $$ on this out of your own personal pocket over time.

    2. Subscribe to E.B.C. – $15 / month

    3. Attend all local Open Meetings – $40 / month if married ($20 / month single)

    As you build your team, you probably will eventually be encouraged (or it will just happen), that you’ll start building a long distance team that isn’t close to any of the major live open meeting locations. So this will cost you $25 minimum each week in order to receive the webcast through your EBC…but what if it’s a new location and you don’t yet have 5 people attending ($5 / person)? Oh, I forgot, you’ll have to eat that cost yourself. And all guests are free…so you’ll eat their webcast costs as well.

    This also doesn’t include the periodic Super Opens that take place with the PC…these are twice the normal cost of an open ($10 per person, $50 minimum for a webcast). Again, if you’re a real builder and you have multiple locations across the country tuning in, you my friend (or one of your downlines), will be eating any additional costs if people don’t show up. And what if you have one friend in a particular location that you want to see the event (but don’t have any other teammates in the area)? Just order them a “guest” link for the webcast…this is free for them to watch – but YOU will have to pay the $25 (or $50 for a Super Open) in order for them to experience it. It’s all about COMMUNITY you know?

    4. Men’s Leadership events – $10 / month (typically 8 per year)

    5. Attend all Leadership Conventions – $125 per person ($250 married) @ 4 times per year

    6. Top 50 pack – $265 – supposedly a one-time cost, but they seem to have an odd way of continually updating the pack and even putting in older CD’s that you may not already have. Since these CD’s aren’t usually sold separately on the EBC, you might need to buy new packs from time to time. Also, ask your upline for some old Top 50 packs that they have so you can listen to them. Might want to ask about where some of those old leaders went? Actually, you probably don’t have to look much further than this site…many of them are right here 🙂

    By my calculations, the BARE minimum (which you’ll find will be WAAAY conservative) if that you’ll be paying at least $263 per month on just system events, if you exclude the cost of any unreimbursed tickets, the monthly cost of the $265 Top 50 pack, any Super Opens, any webcasts and any “extras”, such as branded emails on the E.B.C. This also excludes ANY additional system tools, which it would be impossible to build the TEAM business without (at least in order to get any “free” mentoring). These will include the TEAM Builders Textbook ($24), Top 5 books ($62), LLR book ($16), Team Calendar ($25), Board & Easel Set ($83) and Open Meeting Flip Chart, which they’ll be continually changing ($249). And I haven’t even BEGUN to start discussing the costs of the real ON-GOING tools that you’ll need to constantly replace as you build “your” business: 1st night packs ($27 each), story CD’s, Additional Information Packs, Getting Started Packs, Apprenticeship Packs, Power Player Packs, Depth Packs, etc. etc. etc.

    And even more importantly for most folks (yourself apparently excluded), is the fact that in order to go Power Player, you need to be on auto-ship and do 200 PV per month (or 2 cases of juice). The cheapest 2 cases (Essential / Original) you can get will cost you $215. I can’t tell you how many people on my team came up to me and said there was no way they could afford this kind of money on juice, when our real business was selling tools and getting people to seminars. And, this may be before your time, but until recently Power Player (and getting into majors early) was 300 PV…meaning you’d have to purchase not two, but THREE cases of the product each month!

    I haven’t even begun to get into the costs of gas for thousands of miles each month, hotel costs, food costs at majors or during travels, etc.

    So you may want to rethink your statement about the finance pack (more $) solving all of people’s problems not being able to afford all of this. Last time I checked, there are other budgeting and financial tools online where you can get the same information for FREE.

    In my experience building the business hard for YEARS, I would have loved if my monthly costs were ONLY $500 per month.

  21. Milan K permalink
    August 28, 2011 10:23 am

    Made Power Player already, not on standing order to get tickets, only went to ONE MAjor in Ohio and no seminars yet, went to one Mens Leadership group, it was fun,I have felt no pressure, they just make suggestions.

    I think your argument of counting the mona vie that YOU yourself consume is flawed. I simply substituted what I was spending for my family on vitamin supplements, soda, watered down juices…..and apply those funds toward the purchase of much better quality products. Since when do you count the cost of food and drink that you consume as a business startup expense? Your saying its required? Yes, if you want to make more money by being eligible for commissions. I have been getting commissions and no one ever mentioned AGO to me?

    I have to say it but you sound like a former disgruntled employee, I have heard this so many times before in my other businesses when things don’t go your way, always some one elses fault, but I guess that is the type of society we have evolved into:)

  22. Milan K permalink
    August 28, 2011 10:34 am

    I am going through what I have spent and spend each month and it is not $500 a month, more like $225 which doesnt count the Mona Vie. I guess I should count what my food for supper costs me as I need the strength to get up and go show the plan…..Lets add that food cost in there and pump it up a little more, lets see I went to Pick and save and bought groceries and lets not forget Panera Bread for a soup and sandwich, add that in there…..

  23. Milan K permalink
    August 28, 2011 10:40 am

    225 is even generous, Basic System costs $54.00 a month, BOM, $15, I usually order an additional 12 to 18 dollars worth so that gets us up to $87, add 20 per month for EBC, $107, two mtgs at $5 each, $117.00, two webcasts, 10 each (even though they cost me $5) so we are $137. They have 4 opens a year, I have gone to one and missed one, they didnt flog me yet,

    4x 125 = 500 divided by 12 months is $42 per month if using accrual method of acct. which should be used in my opinion. Compare that cost to attend your darling Tony Robbins seminars…..

  24. Used to be "all-in" permalink
    August 28, 2011 10:49 am

    Milan – let’s stop the sugar coating. If we’re talking about a business, you need to factor in all expenses (haven’t you heard about out-of-town expenses, that are business deductions?). I’ll give you some leeway here as you’re so new that you may not be aware of all of the likely costs, 98% of them being all of the system expenditures I went through above (although if you just bought a business, wouldn’t you want to know?)

    Anyway, you just said you already went Power Player. Can I ask how you did this? The Power Player checklist states that you must be on full training system (which is at least the Power Player package). You stated earlier that you are on basic system.

    The Power Player checklist says that you must attend all events. I believe you wrote that you attend 2 opens per month and haven’t yet been to a seminar. This must mean that you went 10/4 on your taproot and 5/2 on your second in your first two weeks in the business before the major?

    The Power Player checklist states that you must have at least 200 PV going through your personal number on autoship each month. I believe you said you’re currently receiving 1 case, correct me if I’m wrong.

    You also didn’t mention whether you’ve purchased a Top 50 CD pack or not yet.

    Finally, were you recognized for Team 10 and did you show 15 plans in your first two weeks in the business before the major?

    In order to have done Power Player, you needed to have done each and every one of these things.

    Just want to make sure we’re on the same page.

  25. switch permalink
    August 28, 2011 11:01 am

    What did you do, ride your 10 speed to the “team functions” or was it a tandem?

  26. Milan K permalink
    August 28, 2011 11:10 am

    I drove my 2011 Acadia and brought some TEAM Members. I will respond more later, gotta get back out by my pool, my margaritas are going to melt and the grill is ready:) Its a hot beautiful day in Wisconsin…..

  27. Milan K permalink
    August 28, 2011 11:13 am

    One more thing before I mix up a cocktail; Since when is it illegal to make a claim that can be supported by clinical evidence, lab work and documentation? two years ago I could only get standard rating on another LIFE policy I applied for, since i am on the “juice” I now received “preferred”, I have all the lab results and documents to prove it…..that does tend to coincide with the clinical efficacy studies mona vie release that support the heart health benefits of the Pulse product. So I guess I will see you in court…

  28. switch permalink
    August 28, 2011 11:38 am

    oh, an Acadia……I hear the gas mileage isn’t so good on those either. I suppose that has nothing to do with your monthly cost?

  29. No Team For Me permalink
    August 28, 2011 11:46 am

    Milan K – Either you are too new and naive or you are yet another TEAM PC or RT writing in disguise.

    If it is the 1st, come back in a couple years when in addition to the basic system costs, you’ve bought several updated Top 50 Packs, Relationship Packs, Depth Builder Packs, Follow-Up Packs, Culture Packs, LLR Packs, Getting Started Packs, Finance Packs, tool trunks, First Night Packs, Additional Info Packs and then bought extras of each for new future downline – only to realize none of them stuck – it was you who got stuck.

    Then multiply all those costs times everyone in your city at your local seminar and ask yourself, where are the results for the millions of dollars spent on leadership development. Surely that much money spent on training would have produced at least 30-50 Golds in a city?

    We are not spewing hate. We have lost thousands of dollars and many have had their groups stolen by these supposed men of integrity.

  30. Milan K permalink
    August 28, 2011 12:01 pm

    My acadia gets 21 mpg, front wheel drive only is all I need. when I go to functions, I car pool, split the gas, keeps the gas costs down.

    Of course gas costs for business functions are a business expense silly…… I track and deduct all my business costs, the cds everything…….getting more ice, its beautiful outside!

  31. switch permalink
    August 28, 2011 12:23 pm

    Since when are you qualified to make such claims, Milan?

    And you’re going off clinical studies/documentation/lab work under Mona Vie??????

    As Larsen says, “IT’S JUST FRUIT JUICE” and nothing more to cover his ass. Any medical claims/testimonies towards great health can lead to getting your distributorship revolked by Mona Vie. Are you about to argue with that and post your actual name and ID# so that we could forward on to M.V. corp with your health claims?

  32. aurora permalink
    August 28, 2011 12:40 pm

    This commenter requested that her comments be removed from this site.

  33. Steve (Peachy) permalink
    August 28, 2011 2:34 pm

    Milan K

    You keep telling us how little you spend each month, but you haven’t told us how little you make each month. Please for gosh sakes enlighten us. I bet it’s much less than you spend. Make more than you spend = good business. Spend more than you make = Team business. Do you understand now?

  34. Speak Your Truth permalink
    August 28, 2011 4:08 pm

    Used to be “all in”~

    Funny How he never answered a single Power Player question you asked. Wonder why that is?

    Milan~ Take all your questions over to Juicescam site, I am sure they will happy to explain things to you.

  35. free at last permalink
    August 28, 2011 4:12 pm

    @Outsider, Athena Dean also wrote a book called “Consumed by Success.” I think it was the first book she wrote. An excellent read.

  36. August 29, 2011 6:01 am

    @Milan K – Wow…I’ve missed some good stuff here. Sorry, I was spending time with my family, and you are correct… it was a beautiful sunny day! You see, I can do that kind of stuff any time I like now, without feeling like I should have been out “Showing the plan” or contacting someone.

    I find your comments interesting. You appear to be “poking this thing with a stick”, as you build your “Business”. Unless the Team teaching methods have changed overnight (and I know they haven’t), your pretty much doing the exact opposite of how they teach to build a “successful business”! Your treating it like a buffet….take a little of this, a little of that, whatever looks good to me! That’s awesome….and truth be told, you will lose a lot less money if you continue to do this, and build a strong base of clients for Monavie (good luck with that by the way). HOWEVER… the point is… that’s NOT what the Team teaches, and what the “Leaders” are expected to do! If you are fine with doing what your doing, and basically substituting the Team “System” for Tony Robbins type “Rah Rah you can do it” motivation…then no problem. It’s probably cheeper that way. But DON’T in the same breath say that you are building a “Business”. You have to have a reasonable expectation of profit in order to write off expenses….and you my friend do not. If your confident that you do… why don’t you run what your doing and what your claiming past your local IRS agent, and see what they think.

    The Team LOVES guys like you. They’ll love on you, to keep you coming around and buying their stuff. They’ll smile, shake your hand, pat you on the back, and tell you to “keep doing what you’re doing”….all the way to the bank! You however will never be promoted, pointed out as “doing it right” or receive recognition from the Team stage…. because you’re not really following the Team’s “System”. AND THAT….is the TRUTH!

  37. outsider permalink
    September 4, 2011 11:38 am

    Thanks for the book info, guys.

  38. Speak Your Truth permalink
    September 4, 2011 1:22 pm

    Used to be ‘all in’~

    I apologize for basically missing your entire post on; August 28, 2011 10:12 am.

    Excellent post!

    That post should be copied and pasted under MLM Punishers on the Costs. What amazes me is then people will STILL try and argue the black and white FACTS……the audacity!

  39. used to be "all-in" permalink
    September 5, 2011 7:29 am

    Speak – Good idea – I have added it under MLM Punishers on the Costs.

  40. billy permalink
    October 5, 2011 10:23 pm

    I really think they are using the church to get members cause I went on vacation this past two weeks and all i heard is about this team my question is what business you have to work to get money for them the leaders the people I was with all this week are church members and one of the life leaders is in there church. Tell me he isn’t using this to con people with his 4 million dollar home and nice boat about 50 ft long and forget about the cars the best.So he goes to the church everybody see him throws some money around and guess what he hooks these poor people into joining and waste there money on them.Also it’s funny the Mona vie is part of the wellness products I was thinking about joining so i came home and looked up sites like this to see how trust worthy this is. And I thank all of you for this information

  41. brent hansen permalink
    October 6, 2011 10:41 am

    I laugh how people try to talk about the “tax write-offs” as a major benefit of being part of an MLM. Lets be honest here folks, the average American pays NO income tax, and as a matter of fact, the standard deductions for most, far outweigh the benefit of itemizing. If you are justifying your business because of tax write offs, better wake up. You are LOSING money.

  42. Vogel permalink
    October 6, 2011 12:04 pm

    The tax write-off aspect vexes me to no end. As a taxpayer, I can’t abide subsidizing Orrin’s sales tools scam or Larceny’s carny snakeoil juice.

    To be eligible for home business writeoffs, the distributor would have to have a realistic chance of being profitable. Since the vast majority do not, the writeoffs are almost certainly fraudulent in most cases.

    The IRS has the worst sense of humor and least patience out of all the government agencies (Immigration makes the short list too though), so I’ve always thought that the IRS tax cheat whistle-blower program would be a good way to take these scammers out at the knees. Besides they are so dishonest about everything else, why would anyone expect them to be honest about their tax filings.

    BTW, do a lot of cash transactions take place at the meetings; for sales tools for example? If so, I bet that they aren’t declaring it to the IRS. Thoughts?

  43. Speak Your Truth permalink
    October 6, 2011 12:41 pm


    If their books and some other things were investigated by the IRS, if they followed the money trail..and has someone brought up here about the ficticous LLC.. businesses that O had leaders signing on, why do people so this, maybe you could explain this? Hmm..there is no doubt they would find something. There are Cash transactions, debit and credit card transactions that take place especially at the majors and seminars, where they rake it in at least by the ten’s of thousands if not.. 100’s of thousands.

  44. Vogel permalink
    October 6, 2011 1:32 pm

    Did you ever read about the case of Phil Driscoll (check Wiki)? He was one of Monavie’s guys a while back until he got thrown in jail for tax fraud and embezzling. He set up a ministry and was pocketing the donations.

  45. Speak Your Truth permalink
    October 6, 2011 2:52 pm

    The team does have a ‘charity’ that is run by the PC women and office staff..(All-Grace). Sure Makes you wonder as we know they don’t blink an eye at lying, stealing, or cheating the people they have ‘claimed’ to care so much about..right down until they no longer can control them and who question their corruption.

    They believe the ‘ends justify the means’…ironically I have been reading up on Scientology and geez…they too believe the ‘end justify the means’. Quite creepy the parallels, although Scientology has way more money and are much more sophisticated.

    Now back to the…thanks I will check that out. 🙂

  46. Vogel permalink
    October 6, 2011 3:46 pm

    Last thought on this tangent…The MORE Project. Their IRS990 filings showed that the company was donating next to nothing, in contrast with what many distributors had been led to believe (i.e. that a percentage of sales went directly to MORE). Part of the money from MORE went to paying Larceny’s family members (Katy Holt-Larsen for one) and it appears they also used funds to build what is basically a vacation property in Brazil for the kingpins. Beyond that, the main value of MORE seems to have been for advertising Monavie.

  47. Robin permalink
    November 3, 2011 5:37 pm

    Wow!!! I stumbled across this sight when I heard about “Life”. I too, sadly to admit, spent 7 years in this business while my family members watched me become an addict in the Team business. My husband and I worked hard, did everything they told us too, and this is what happened: When we qualified for the profit sharing portion of the business it was taken away to pay for the “Team’s” legal fees or should I say the leaders legal fees from Amway. We built a business to where our profits would allow my husband to retire from his job. By the grace of God he waited. Our upline came in and stole our entire team because THEY were not profiting from MonaVie. In MonaVie, in order to make the money personal sponsors matter. Since we personally sponsored the majority of the people on our first leg and of course built our own second leg we deserved the profit. Well in Team that is unacceptable. Just like that it was all taken away. At first I was bitter about it. All the time and money we spent was sickening. I am thankful now and it has been three years since September that this happened. I couldn’t be more thankful. I have more money, more precious time with my family, and am a happier person.

    The financial stuff they taught we already knew. I will give credit to a friend we met in the business to our financial total success. It was through a christian financial advisor she knew that we became totally debt free and owe no one anything including our home. However, I could of learned that from Dave Ramsey and sat on 10’s of thousands of dollars wasted in that business.

    And you all are right!!!! The only friend I have from that business I became best friends with in the business and they stole her business also. She was my immediate upline. They took both her legs too.

    I loved the post detailing all the costs incrued when you don’t “poke a stick” at this business. I so wished I could have seen that long ago. I almost puked reading it tonight. I probably wouldn’t have listened then anyways. I do know I will NEVER do a mlm, networking, cult, whatever you want to call it business again in my life. However, if I like the product I may buy it and personally use it.

    To Tyson: Be paitent and loving. He doesn’t realize what he is doing. As you can see from all the posts we were all there too. I wouldn’t listen. What happened to me was a Godsend because I would probably still be in it. Get the books, read them, and I wish you and your family the best of luck.

  48. Robin permalink
    November 3, 2011 5:41 pm

    By the way:

    It is sickening to read Milan K’s posting. He skirts around all the questions and talks circles. Wonder where he learned that from?

  49. das permalink
    November 4, 2011 1:29 am

    Welcome Robin, and thank you for sharing your story. I doubt you stumbled upon this site. I believe God led you here because your story needed to be told. Once again, welcome.

  50. Used to be "all-in" permalink
    November 4, 2011 2:53 am

    Robin – welcome to the site! And thanks for sharing your story…I’m so sorry you had to deal with the pain of spending so much time building these leaders’ businesses, only to have it taken away when they weren’t making enough money of your efforts. Please enjoy reading this site and you’ll find that a number of others also had their teams stolen from them after years of effort. Some of these people were former RT’s and Triple 100’s and above. We’re all thankful that Amthrax has set up this site for us to start getting the truth out.

    Some posts you may be interested in reading if you haven’t already are the LIFE Policies & Procedures, LIFE Preliminary Comp plan, the TEAM bankruptcy post, and the Guzzardo strategic default post.

    I think I can speak for everyone else that we all look forward to hearing more about your story as you feel inclined to share more. Feel free to invite your friend here as well.

  51. I QUIT (and glad I did) permalink
    November 4, 2011 8:16 am

    And yet another appears!! Welcome Robin!! Please share more for the benefit of all, ex-Team and all the rest who read here. More stories will make Owen squirm. THAT MAKES IT FUN!!!! Hee hee hoo hoo ha ha ho ho!!!! I’m thumbing my nose at you Owen! Right now! Ha ha hoo hoo!!!!!

  52. das permalink
    November 4, 2011 3:13 pm

    I was around when the switch to MV happened. Anyone and everyone that questioned the purple juice was done, finished, period. It didn’t matter how big or small your team was. It was as if the walls had ears too.(read up on cults)

    I can only imagine the same will happen with LieF to those who question the product. There is no product to sell. YOU are the product. You are paying Orrin to live the way He wants you to live. How about living the way God wants you to live for free people?

    I almost got sick watching the 3 stooges with their wives on their latest video over on you tube. What a bunch of posers.

  53. Robin permalink
    November 4, 2011 7:52 pm

    Thanks everyone for the comments. I have never posted anything prior to the post I did last night. I just felt I needed to after reading everyone’s comments. I too am sooooo regretful for the time I took away from my family. My granddaughter’s mother passed away in a car accident while we were thick in building the business night after night. I feel very sad that all the time I could have spent with her was spent making the people at the top live their lifestyle.

    All the things they preached from stage I believed until they stole our teams. “If you don’t like where you are in your business, don’t look upline or downline, look in the mirror.” That is what WE did. However when they weren’t making enough money when they switched to MonaVie, they looked downline and said “Hey I think I will take the seven years of YOUR blood, sweat, and tears because I’m not making what I want to make. Well I guess they should of looked in the mirror.

    I remember Orrin saying from stage “How much would you sell your integrity for?” Well he sold his for very little. It was his decision to let our upline do that to us. We were promised a meeting with Tim Marks because of everything that happened with the slandering, etc. We never got it. We never even received a phone call. Instead they wanted us to meet with the Paul’s and resolve the situation. It was the Paul’s that were behind all of this. We were dumb enough to even consider starting all over again. I am SO GLAD TO BE FREE.

    My bible teaches that I should of spent all that time with HIM and not focused on what monetary things would bring in this world. How sad I forgot that for awhile. He promises to take care of all my needs. And truly He has. Crazily though, I consider all of this a blessing. I have learned alot and will never be out of balance like that again. My priorities are where they should be NOW. Faith, Family, Finance, Fitness. Sound familiar? They preached that but didn’t really want you to do that.

    I have no respect for Orrin or Tim. They have no integrity. They say one thing yet do another. It is eeerie how you cannot see that when you are in the business until it slaps you in the face. I still can’t understand why Chris is still with them. I believe him to be a man of God even after this. That family walks their talk outside of that business. We had no business contact with them. I will always love that family. They had no part in what happened to us. I have seen their family many times out of any business function and they are sincere, honest, God loving people with integrity. They raise their children that way also. Please do not comment negative on them.

    By the way we were turbo 25’s moving up. We were there a few times and would lose systems and then get there again on our way to turbo 50. Yes it took us that long to get there.

    What really hurts and makes me sad when I think about it is that we thought the people on our team were our friends. We loved them! We drove thousands of miles in the course of our business for them. Some lived 3 hours away and we were there all the time helping them. Some we went to church with and knew for years. My husband and I are the same way all the time. You get what you see. We are not fake people. It really hurts when you truly loved and cared about the people and their success and you thought they were your friends to just like that – poof – they slander you, spread malicious crap about you. It really was devestating. That was more devistating than our business being stolen. Someone promised them the moon and they deserted all of their beliefs for that promise. I learned that the ones who cry Christian the loudest will hurt you the most!!

    I am a FIRM believer that what comes around goes around!! I can’t wait for them to get theirs. I don’t even have to know when they do. I just know they will! It took me just over three years to be able to say all of this. Thanks for listening. I feel for each and every one of you who have been hurt by this business.

  54. John permalink
    November 5, 2011 9:19 am

    Robin, you have been fortunate to have come to a place to see the truth about this Team and its business. You made many great points and have some good insights from your hurts and experiences. Let me share with you that all of the leaders of this organization are guilty of many things. This includes the Brady’s. I have no respect for any of them. Don’t be fooled by pious talk and playing at being Christian. The bible says that to know to do good but not to do it is sin. Period. Nothing else needs to be said about these people.

  55. brent hansen permalink
    November 5, 2011 11:32 am

    John, you are correct, whether guilty by commission or ommission, there really is no difference. Just as the quote says “evil prevails when good men do nothing” .

  56. Robin permalink
    November 5, 2011 11:36 am


    Thanks. Never thought of it that way, “to know to do good but not to do it is sin”. You are absolutely right!!! I still hope and pray the B’s were not involved. I have been reading on different topics on this sight and am just amazed that Team can still be doing the same things. It is quite disgusting to see. I do not know how they can lay their heads on their pillows every night and sleep. I feel guilty for stp to so many people and they had joined and spent money too. And I did this not knowing the truth. Now that I do I wish I could take it all back and put all the money they lost back into their pockets. I feel personally responsible because I showed that business to them. Just because I was ignorant at the time does not change the fact that I led them into the wolves den. I admit when I am wrong and I take responsibility for my errors!! Wish the world worked that way. I can only keep moving forward and hope more and more people will see the truth and do something about it. This has been very freeing to reveal what happened to me on this website with people who understand and had the same thing happen to them. I really feel for them because they lost even more than we did being higher in position with team. And we lost ALOT!!! Like I said earlier, we have been out for just over 3 years and I held it all in until I found this sight 3 days ago.

    They will have to answer someday whether it be here on earth or to their Maker. And I for one would not want to wear their shoes on that day! I still struggle with the fact that some things from the very beginning jerked on my “beliefs” and yet I ignored them. What a fool I was and why I do not judge others for staying in the business until their eyes are truly opened. I was so blinded and now am ashamed. I believe that those in our downline who hurt us the most will have the veil lifted and when they do truly feel sorrow and regret at what they did. They will see that GREED was the only reason they chose to do what they did. I could have followed and kept my teams intact, but integrity and morals would not allow my husband and I to do that to our immediate upline. I could never have laid my head on the pillow and slept from doing such a thing for the sake of money. I will never regret the decision to lose everything if I didn’t follow with the stealing of my uplines team to go to another. So they stoled our teams too.

    PS: I still believe what comes around goes around. Just a matter of time 🙂

  57. a wounded bear permalink
    November 5, 2011 12:16 pm

    What if one of the PC’s owned up to everthing & left, would you guys reach out and support them? Especially if they would post here?

  58. Robin permalink
    November 5, 2011 12:28 pm

    Absolutely!!! I would. I already use my real name and have nothing to hide. It would be about time their conscience got to them. Right is right. How many times have I heard “People with integrity expect to be believed and when they are not they let time prove them right”. It isn’t about where you post. It is about doing what is right no matter the cost!! Personally it was my integrity that led me to doing what was right and I didn’t care whether anyone believed me.

  59. Robin permalink
    November 5, 2011 12:29 pm

    I believe there are PC’s who only stay because they feel they have no choice. They are in so deep. Not because they think what orrin does is right. This is only an opinion. I have had no one tell me this.

  60. Speak Your Truth permalink
    November 5, 2011 1:19 pm


    Welcome to your healing and true freedom..that this site has provided for many. Thanks to Amthrax, those who experienced the same and all who support this and were courageous enough to speak the truth, and had chose their integrity.. when realized, the choice had to be made.

    Your story speaks volumes and ours is almost identical. Only we stood up to their lack of integrity, corruption, and destruction and left because of our downline’s/Teams/and leaders being destroyed, that ultimately lead to them stealing our profit-sharing. I agree with you on every point.

    Although excruciatingly painful to experience and a lot of baggage to work through of guilt and shame…I feel exactly like you that it is a blessing in diguise…a silver lining…and personally, will be and is used for a better purpose…for us it was the turning point when the truth utimately showed up and could no longer be denied…it ended the madness and damage for us and many more..except.. all but the pieces to be picked up and the healing to begin.

    Thanks for sharing….glad you are truly free.

  61. November 5, 2011 6:15 pm

    @Robin – What made you do a search and find this site after being out for 3 years?

  62. Robin permalink
    November 5, 2011 6:53 pm

    There was a post on my facebook and a gal I went to highschool with commented on the post about being at the new LIFE seminar. So being curious as to what they were up to now and I had been a part of them while they were in Quixtar, then just to Team with the promise of the Walmart of the internet, to nope we can’t do that we are selling juice with MonaVie. My curiosity got the best of me and I did a google search. Went on Orrin Woodward’s blog, Chris Brady’s blog. When I put in Orrin Woodward LIFE in google this sight had a blip on it and I have been all through your site all weekend. The most I have ever spent since we left the Team. I had NO idea there were so many people with similar stories like ours. The real shocker was when I went to your posts on the bankrupcies of the Huber’s, Cullens, and Darkangelo’s. Had it not been for that comment of a friend on my facebook I would never have known all the suffering they have caused. I am not naive enough to believe it was just us. But I thought it was isolated to one downline in the Mark’s group. The Paul’s. Since being out I have through weird circumstances run across another high up couple who had the same thing happen to them. They were up in our leg and I always wondered what happened to them. The sad thing is all these years later when our paths crossed and we started talking about our stories, I asked them “Why didn’t you tell us! We could have saved so much time and money!” Their response was they were afraid we would not believe them and they were so sorry they didn’t. You see the Team will do that to you when you have been indoctrinated for so long. You can see that from others posts. If you want to know more email me and I will give you my number. I think I can trust you because so many hear speak highly of you. And anyways I have nothing to lose. The truth is the truth. If you aren’t who they say you are, what do I care. It is what it is. All I know is this is the free-est I have felt since all that happened. I went from shock, sadness, anger, bitterness and now thankful. I believe what you go through tests you and makes you stronger when you come out on the other side. Just takes a long time to go thru all the emotions.

  63. Robin permalink
    November 5, 2011 7:06 pm


    You can see my email I log in to on your site has my first and last name. I really hope you email me. There is alot I would like to tell you.

  64. a wounded bear permalink
    November 5, 2011 7:45 pm

    Did you get addicted to the applause, to those of you who did seminars?

  65. Speak Your Truth permalink
    November 5, 2011 8:07 pm

    a wounded bear~

    I could answer for my spouse and I, we were never addicted to the applause…it was the opposite, and very uncomfortable because we never felt superior nor treated people as such. It was more a feeling of responsiblity, although my spouse was a respected speaker and liked to speak. If there was an addiction, it was in helping others on and off stage.

  66. Kathy permalink
    November 5, 2011 9:02 pm

    To Robin and the others, So glad you are now free. My boyfriend has been in Monavie for over two years, and continues to invest large amounts of time and money, without seeing any success. He is attending the LIFE seminar as I write this. I and others have tried in a gentle way to let him know that this business is not working out, by he won’t listen. I had my suspicions that he was being brainwashed, and now, through this site and other similar sites, those suspicions have been confirmed. Just wanted to let everyone know that reading your posts has given me some comfort and the knowledge that there is a better life, once one comes to their senses.

  67. Robin permalink
    November 5, 2011 9:13 pm

    I have no idea how they legally did it. It was being planned behind the scenes behind our backs. One of our uplines didn’t like another in our uplines. They didn’t get along. We were told for quite some time we couldn’t associate with a certain upline. We were told if we did we wouldn’t get any help in building our business. My husband and I did anyways because the couple they were ostricizing were our friends. A conference call was orchestrated with our entire team. We were at the top of the fighting so it was everyone down from us on the conference call. By the time the call took place we found out the Paul’s were into our second team all of sudden “loving” on the top of our second team and making promises to mentor and go down and build there teams with them. We had been in the business 5 or plus years and no one was interested in helping our second team. We were always taught you had to build your own second team and you were responsible for helping them. So the top of our second team (behind our backs) were already promised the moon and of course all their integrity went out the window.

    The “stated reason” for this move was that when we all moved over to MonaVie no one got to pick their sponsor and where they wanted to be. Now mind you we have been in MonaVie for quite some time when this took place. No one had a problem with where they were at for months. I can’t remember for how long we were in MonaVie exactly when this happened. It was several months for sure.

    The real reason all this stink took place is because in MonaVie it MATTERS how many people you personally sponsored! We were the personal sponsors to the majority of the people in the “tap” root. So guess what, the upline that had a problem was the “thumbsucker” and the “crybaby” and threatened a lawsuit on Team if he didn’t get his own way. So just like that they could take already existing IBO’s and place them whereever they wanted. When I asked the Paul’s and T Marks we were told the decision came from Orrin. Of course we all know nothing happens in that business without Orrin’s say so.

    Amazingly enough they thought it would be that easy and none of us would raise a stink. I raised a big stink and called everyone personally on our teams and told them what was the truth. You talk about uplines getting angry!!!! I told my team WE WERE NOT LEAVING AND GOING ANYWHERE. How in the world could we do that to the people right above us that worked hard in this business and helped us build it! My conscience won’t allow me to knowingly screw people. All that garbage they preached on stage is a lie. If they don’t have the business they think they should have they take it from those that do the work. The smear campaign began and the stuff they said about my husband and I was incredible. Shame on the people who we put hours and hours, miles and miles into that could go along and help them spread all that garbage.

    So anyways back on track. When they realized that the transition didn’t go as planned and we were a hiccup in their plots and schemes they didn’t like it. Not everyone went with them. Alot stayed with us on both sides. That really torked the people on top of our second team. They thought how dare us that we could keep their team!!!! Do you see the hypocrocy (don’t know how to spell that word)!!!!! It tore our entire business apart. We stayed with who we had and tried to keep building the team because we didn’t want to let our teams down. We loved them and we wanted all of us to be truly successful and get our goals and dreams. But after awhile I just realized my heart and conscience could not stay in the business and listen to those lies anymore. I wanted to puke whenever I heard them teach on stage because I knew now that they were all blatent liars!!!!

    I regret having anyone stay with us. I should have told them all to go with them. At least I wouldn’t have let them down. But at the same time what would stop them from taking our downlines teams later? I don’t know. Sorry the post was so long but you asked. Legally I am sure you cannot just take existing IBO’s and move them anywhere. Although they already started changing sponsors on us before the phone call. We knew something was up. We would go in our back office and slowly by slowly the sponsor would change from us to ********. We would call and demand they be changed back. It would take months and of course we wouldn’t receive the income from them and they never gave it back.

    Again sorry so long. Hope that helps.

  68. Robin permalink
    November 5, 2011 9:19 pm

    Orrin must have had Dallin Larson in his pocket because noone had to change IBO numbers or anything. They could just be moved by a phone call. How in the world can that happen?????? Overnight just like that they were gone and placed where it suited the GREEDY UPLINES. What is funny is they didn’t get to place them exactly where they wanted. They wanted to put them on a weaker team and couldn’t because that would mean the upline that the “crybaby” didn’t like would still be there upline and the upline this was happening to told them they couldn’t have it both ways. Either they didn’t want to be in my downline or they did. Do you see how hypocrytical it all was. That was not the real reason!!!!!! IT WAS THE MONEY!!!!!!!!!!!!! THE MOVE WAS TOTALLY ABOUT MO MONEY MO MONEY MO MONEY!!!!!!!!!

  69. Robin permalink
    November 5, 2011 9:21 pm

    Whoo. I just got a lot off my chest. Felt good. 🙂

  70. Robin permalink
    November 5, 2011 9:31 pm

    They used the profit sharing money to pay for their legal fees. That is how we went from getting 4 digits a month on profit sharing to a couple hundred dollars. They flat out told us that was what was being used. Plus they had the nerve to ask for donations for the legal fund for the “good of the cause” puke and gag!

  71. Robin permalink
    November 5, 2011 9:44 pm

    We didn’t get any threats because we didn’t associate with them anymore. What can they do to us now? We have been out of the cult now for 3 years as of September. What is funny is (well not really funny but you know what I mean) they are struggling financially. All of them. You can see it in the numbers like people have stated on this site. However I have a JOB and love it. I actually bring home good money every week and have a future!!! I am sooo embarressed to even admit I was a robot. I did and said everything they did. I fell hook line and sinker. It is a good thing I found this site later than sooner. I would have been too embarressed and ashamed to admit I was one of them. How STUPID!!!! I can’t get back the years I lost with my children and family. I will always regret the time I spent in this business instead of with my grand daughter’s mother. She is no longer with us and I can’t go back and change it. However it has taught me to keep priorities where they should of been. You and all the others have helped me so much and I am thankful you were willing to share your stories as much as they hurt. Thank you!!!!

  72. Robin permalink
    November 5, 2011 9:47 pm


    I never heard about Orrin changing the numbers. Sure copy and move my posts and I’ll see you over there. Wow on what they did with your profit sharing!!! What comes around goes around.

  73. Robin permalink
    November 5, 2011 10:11 pm

    Well said. I feel the same way you do. I am so sorry you had to go thru this. I know it is a long road. I still think about it from time to time. I talk about with my friend that was my upline and this happened to them too. It is devastating to realize the time we lost. But you are right God has BIGGER and BETTER plans for us. The one thing that helped me tremendously was we knew what that conference call was about before they did it. We were tipped off. My husband and I prayed about it alot and we were confident that the Lord weeding those ugly people he needed to weed out of our lives. He has total control and we trusted in that. It happened the way He planned, not them. That gave us the peace we needed to go thru it. It still hurt tremendously and we still went thru all the emotions, but we kept going back to our prayers and knowing that God is in control.

  74. Speak Your Truth permalink
    November 6, 2011 10:33 am


    It maybe a long strenuous, and difficult process but the great news is…undue influence/brainwashing/thought reform, is only temporary! The human spirit has and amazing way of bouncing back, so just know when he finally comes to his senses, he can return to himself, (he will be changed in many ways and it doesn’t come without much pain, guilt, suffering, and embarrassment, anger, etc) but you eventually come out of it! Good luck, just know the more you push the more you push away. There is many stories of people on here sadly, that the relationships have ended because they are so locked in.

    I would recommend going to the website, Steve Hassan is a mind control, cult expert and has written 2 books that would be of great help to you. He is coming out with a new edition to “Releasing the Bonds” book he wrote.

    I hope that helps and Welcome to this site also. 🙂

  75. November 6, 2011 9:36 am

    @Kathy – Your comment was just approved. I hope your boyfriend will, as you say, come to his senses. What does he say when you gently tell him that the business is not working out? I hope that his uplines don’t try to wedge the business between the two of you (and make him make a decision he may come to regret in the future).

  76. Robin permalink
    November 6, 2011 12:57 pm


    If you truly love your boyfriend, and I am sure you do, just be patient and educate yourself. When he finally sees the truth he will be devastated and feel like a fool like all of us have felt. That is when he will need your support and grace to come out a better person. Thank goodness my family stood by me. They tried to tell me I was “out there” in a polite way and I thought they were “95%’ers, naysayers, negative nancy’s, etc, etc”. I am sorry you have to go thru this. I hope and pray it won’t take him long to have the veil lifted from his eyes. Also pray for him that his eyes would be opened to the deception!!!

  77. Kathy permalink
    November 7, 2011 5:22 pm

    Thanks everyone for your support. I’m not pushing hard to get him to give up this “business”, because I know it will backfire. @Amthrax, when I and others try to tell him he is making a mistake, he just disagrees and changes the subject. Hopefully this means he not all in. Anyhow, I will continue to follow this site and be patient with him. Thanks again for all of your stories, I know it must be hard to relive this nightmare, but your experince is very helpful to those of us on the sidelines.

  78. November 9, 2011 1:14 am

    I am not a TEAM member and I am not a LIFE member. I stopped reading this letter after the 3rd paragraph. Although the letter may have some valid points, referring to Jesus throwing business out of the temple and equating it to what Orrin Woodward is doing is so ridiculous it’s even laughable. How do you make that comparison? It discredits this letter at the outset so I’m not sure what result is desired. Not a smart move. If you want to criticize, do it smartly please.

  79. November 9, 2011 1:18 am

    Oh and by the way … Orrin is not the only person that has been kicked out of Amway!

  80. das permalink
    November 9, 2011 9:04 am

    Yvett, I disagree with you. You obviously have never been to the same church that Orrin attends. I have, and that analogy is very fitting.

  81. November 9, 2011 10:53 am

    I don’t have an opinion on Orrin because I don’t know him and I haven’t been to his church, and I haven’t seen his training. I have however experienced churches that use sales hype to draw money from the masses, where it is merely about money and nobody’s soul. So perhaps Orrin does that to draw people into his program where it is also about money and nobody’s soul which would drive me away instantly anyway. I merely felt that the MLM industry is not a bad place and that everyone in the industry doesn’t use the B.S. to market their product. The ‘Guru’ facet is so tired it makes me sick to my stomach. People are tired of this and there is a new generation of companies coming into play that put the cards on the table and play it straight. I believe that this new generation of companies will be the ones that will certainly put some money in more people’s pockets without needing to persuade them by using religious preferences.
    Interesting that my other posts weren’t published which makes the one I did seem shallow. Also my name is Yvette and not Yvett. 🙂

  82. November 9, 2011 11:16 am

    Yvette – As far as I can see, you’ve posted three comments, all today. I’ve approved all three of them. When you enter your name before making a comment, make sure you enter “Yvette” in its entirety.

    Furthermore, read the rest of the posts on this site about Orrin Woodward. Go ahead and read his various leadership blogs on the Internet, including those made by his colleagues. Then, come back here to provide your thoughts and opinions.

  83. brent hansen permalink
    November 9, 2011 4:29 pm

    Yvette, I would be interested to know which ‘new’ companies you are referring to. I know a little bit about compensation, and would love to look at what you’ve got. Feel free to email me outside of this blog if you like, Thanks!

  84. Paul permalink
    November 15, 2011 5:42 pm

    Tyson, I’ll keep this short a few years ago someone very close to me once got involved in a cult ! Very serious business do not aliente your brother, become involved so you can see whats going on! I have been to a couple of these Team meetings red flags went up immediately, I am very sad to say my very best friend is involved with this bunch of like minded people or lack there of. Yep and it’s costing my freind a lot of money these folks wanted 100.00 down and so much a month They also wanted my credit card numbers for direct billing purposes (This ain’t no tupperware party). When I questioned there leaders credentials and business practices, my friend acted as though I was questioning god the one with the big boat how dare I. Big Big Red flags.. Just my opinion this guy has no morals. Bye for know

  85. Chris permalink
    November 26, 2011 12:30 am

    Wow, this has been an extremely helpful site to stumble across. I attended my first meeting tonight. I had reservations about going, but have been repeatedly asked to attend by a co-worker and I really just wanted to get it out of the way so she will stop asking.
    Of course she sent me home w/ a started pack of some sort containing CD’s and a book, but after reading the posts here, I don’t even want to hear or read them. She is hoping I will have some “a ha” moment and really “get it” after attending a few bigger weekly meetings. Good grief, what can I tell her so she won’t bother me anymore?
    I honestly thank all of you for your honesty. Is there anywhere I can read more detail about downlines or uplines stealing a business? Why does this happen? Would Team LIFE members be aware of it or admit to knowing about it? I want to tell this co-worker of mine that she might want to be careful about it! Anyway, thanks again for the honesty here. I am so sorry for the losses you all encured. I am so grateful you have helped save me time, energy, and money.~Chris

  86. November 26, 2011 9:39 am

    @Chris – Click on the Ex-TEAM Discussion at the top of the page. That post had over 1000 comments. You’ll also want to read the LIFE TEAM Primer on the right-hand sidebar for a quick intro to the past shenanigans of the TEAM leadership.

  87. Brent Hansen permalink
    November 26, 2011 10:38 am

    Thank you Chris, you now know the truth. Let the losses of those on this blog prevent you from experiencing the same.

  88. Speak Your Truth permalink
    November 26, 2011 11:39 am


    Take the time to read their Policies and Procedures and the rest of the site…it says it all and you will find out how they can steal teams, now. Ours was stolen before any such P&P…just because they could, they have no one policing or holding them accountable for their unfair business practices and all their other shenanigans, at least not yet.

    Welcome to the site, we are all glad you found what your instincts were already telling you to be true, this site just confirmed it. 🙂

  89. Dustin permalink
    September 24, 2012 10:24 am!/lifeteamdestructive Please join this Facebook group.

  90. No Team For Me permalink
    September 24, 2012 1:37 pm

    Spread the word to everyone you know who has quit Team. This word needs to get out.

  91. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    September 24, 2012 3:52 pm

    @Milan: I don’t want to get in a fight or be snotty, but way up the list here in one of your posts, you mention that the founders or your upline has never mentioned quitting your regular job, I urge you to go to Dan Hawkins’s blog and read the hoopla over a Turbo 100 couple doing just that–and there’s pictures from just this month. That’s a big point with TEAM…get the LIFE you think you’ve always deserved and get rid of your JOB (or “Just Over Broke”, as Team has written and spoken so snottifly of).

    The fact is: the current iteration of Woodward’s business is EXACTLY about that. And if you aren’t going to meetings, etc., and claim you made RT, etc., then I’ve got some real suspicions here. From the moment my son got into LIFE, his attendance was required or he was made to feel guilty, even if he was bone tired and broke. So, some of the things you say just don’t ring completely true..

  92. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    September 24, 2012 3:53 pm

    Correction to Milan: you said you made Power Player…not RT…

  93. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    September 24, 2012 3:56 pm

    @Tyson: welcome, and thanks for getting your story posted. Like you, we are sitting here as indirect victims of LIFE/Team. Our son got sucked in like he disappeared in a rogue wave. The changes we saw in him are posted as the lead in another thread on Amtrax, i.e., the Warning signs one.

  94. Soon2BOut permalink
    September 24, 2012 7:25 pm

    Milan K—you’re a liar. You said you made Power Player? I’m sorry, but you need to be on Standing Order Ticket to qualify. Nice try pal.

  95. The brother permalink
    November 1, 2012 9:39 am

    I am the brother. Just to set the record straight: when I joined TEAM, I joined TEAM. Not Quixtar, Amway, Monavie, etc. I will say that the Amway/Quixtar business did not get started well for me financially. I initially went backwards, but it was primarily due to a lack of financial wisdom on my part, not anything the TEAM was teaching. The leadership training, success thinking and principle-based information have made nothing but a positive impact on me over time. The only regret I ever feel is when others are unwilling to invest in themselves. My personal finances are much better, now. My marriage is better. My health is better. My self-confidence is higher. I read the Bible more. The products of the now L.I.F.E. business (information)are world-class and recognized as such. I am proud to be associated with TEAM. I love my family and can fully understand their concerns. I would welcome the “intervention” so we could communicate in person, instead of reading it in a year-long rant on a public, yet highly slanted, forum. I want to grow closer as a family, instead of farther apart. That’s about it.

    I would respectfully ask that you provide me the same anonymity you have provided my siblings in this post.

  96. No Team For Me permalink
    November 1, 2012 6:17 pm

    Brother – I think you really believe you are a better person by being with TEAM. We all thought so also while we were in it. We all used to laugh at how ridiculous it was for people to call it a cult.
    However, after being out for awhile, you will realize that the only people you hang around are those in TEAM. You’ve alienated yourself from everyone else in the world and honestly believe its TEAM against the world. Once you are out, you will realize those still in the cult will cease all communication with you in a heartbeat. So much for all those people who cared so much for you.
    I will pray for you as I believe you are being sincere. But trust me, we were all where you are. One day your eyes will be opened to the truth and you will see the damage TEAM has done to so many thousands and thousands of families.

  97. Freedomhaha permalink
    November 1, 2012 6:39 pm

    Brother- What percentage of people in your TEAM are making a profit?

  98. airman67 permalink
    December 1, 2012 2:50 am

    It all stems from Dexter Yager… This whole issue. He started internet services corp and started the tool business out of the great Amway Business. All the leadership in Monavie were born from that, not Amway but the system of tools and tool subscriptions created. Amway is a great business to merchandise quality products and the tools pushers usually fade out broke…I have a great Amway distributorship that teaches people how to make money without all that subscription garbage that breaks you.Amway corp will help support your efforts without the cost associated with it…..Promise

  99. Craig C permalink
    June 11, 2014 8:53 pm

    Check this out:

    From what I gather, and it is an article from a TEAM founder, Orrin is not Amway nor was he fired but was once associated with them and extremely disliked. Take it for what you want. but try to think from multiple perspectives.
    I haven’t started TEAM yet but I am going to because I trust my friends who are involved. And even, like some of the cd’s speak of, if I don’t make money, is It worth it If I learn something and can grow? We shall see. I’m willing to spend a couple bucks on growing and becoming a better stronger person. Does that make me an “applause addicted” Zombie, noooooope. I don’t follow hype, nor do I jump on band wagons, nor do I act as a mindless sheep.
    In my experience, in regards to the actual blog, if one is involved with self development or any sort of learning experience I.E College, one will change, and better or worse, you may not “know” your brother anymore because he has changed. Ask yourself this, is he a better person? Or rather, is he happy/happier than prior to TEAM? Maybe he enjoys the business and people he works with. I don’t know….
    Also, its easy to get caught up in the money aspect of TEAM. Its easy to say its a scam if no money was made or money was lost. But, you were not forced to buy into the business. Use logic and do a little research, then take your baby steps or dive head first and decide if this “MLM” type of work is for you.
    As for the religion arguments and dislikes. I have no interest in the faith part of the business. I see myself as agnostic and have a strong belief that there is a higher power and can leave it at that. What those who have a stronger opinion need to be able to do is recognize that everyone has an opinion, even Orrin Woodward, and that their speeches and talks are up for interpretation. If you think he is a hypocrite, why? And can you better your self from that view? Now step into your neighbors yard, does he still come across as a hypocrite?
    Its easy to be negative, soooo easy. Yelling, breaking crap, tearing up a relationship, typing endlessly to the faceless masses that make up the internet. How about, instead of bashing on Orrin and putting him in the same category as Mona vie and Amway, because as far as I know he wanted to rid himself of that world, based on my link above, can we take our experience, good or bad and apply it to our future endeavors? If so, you are ahead.
    Why must we bash? This program has helped thousands and he wants to help millions. Who cares if he makes money doing it, its going to happen, its a business. Its up to individuals in the TEAMs to teach and lead in a way that isnt like herding sheep or cattle, we need to teach people to think for themselves, give them the tools to be successful in life either personally, spiritually, financially, whatever! If you think everyone in the business is fake, then fix it and don’t be fake! You don’t have to blindly follow everything.
    There was so much energy in creating this site, and its alllll negative. I cannot believe all the hatred hiding behind computer screens. You are all better people. Go ahead speak your minds, but remember the other pair of shoes walking a different path…

    Im 23, Im young and inexperienced. This was not meant to come across angry just a comment from an outside view. Take it how you want.

  100. freedomhaha permalink
    June 12, 2014 10:28 am

    Craig C- Would you be willing to rethink your position if facts were provided that did not line up with your opinions?

  101. Vogel permalink
    June 12, 2014 6:16 pm

    Craig C said: “Orrin is not Amway nor was he fired but was once associated with them and extremely disliked. Take it for what you want. but try to think from multiple perspectives.”

    Huh? Amway is a company, not a person, so it’s really not necessary to tell us that “Orrin isn’t Amway” (he was one of their highest-ranked distributors, however). The situation with Amway was not a simple issue of the company “disliking” Orrin. Amway had legitimate legal grievances and sued Orrin. The lawsuit was successful too – Amway got a multimillion dollar judgment against Orrin.

    Craig C said: “I haven’t started TEAM yet but I am going to because I trust my friends who are involved…I don’t follow hype, nor do I jump on band wagons, nor do I act as a mindless sheep.”

    Um…you’re joining simply because your friends did it. It doesn’t get much more mindless and sheep-like than that.

    Craig C said: “And even, like some of the cd’s speak of, if I don’t make money, is It worth it If I learn something and can grow? We shall see. I’m willing to spend a couple bucks on growing and becoming a better stronger person.”

    So you’d be happy with a business where you make no money? Man, are you ever a perfect fit for LIEf. This opportunity (dismal) for learning and growth is going to cost you a lot more than “a couple of bucks”. Learning and growth need not cost you anything, but regardless, LIEf actually stunts people’s abilities for learning and growth, unless you define them as “learning” to be an obnoxious money-hungry con-man who lies a lot, and “growing” into a paranoid close-minded weasel. That’s the fate that awaits all committed LIEfers.

    Craig C said: “Ask yourself this, is he a better person? Or rather, is he happy/happier than prior to TEAM? Maybe he enjoys the business and people he works with. I don’t know…”

    Done! I asked myself and the answer came back as follows. People who join LIEf may feel some initial euphoria after getting caught up in the wave of zombie cheerleader hype that’s endemic to LIEf; after that, they simply pretend to be happy because that is the behavior that they are conditioned to display while they are getting their pockets picked clean by the organization. When they fail, and most do, they quietly slip away in despair – which you and other LIEfers wil turn your back on.

    Why is the question even relevant? Is it morally justifiable to predicate one’s happiness on an evil lost cause like LIEf. I’m sure some of the bigwigs are happy while they’re fleecing people. Profiting from the exploitation of suckers no doubt brings them great joy.

    Craig C said: “Also, its easy to get caught up in the money aspect of TEAM. Its easy to say its a scam if no money was made or money was lost. But, you were not forced to buy into the business. Use logic and do a little research, then take your baby steps or dive head first and decide if this “MLM” type of work is for you.”

    Ummm…what? Who is it exactly that you are imploring to use logic and do research? I assure that just about everyone here – at least a dozen or so people – have done more research, apply logic more adroitly, and know far more about Orrin and LIEf than you do or likely ever will.

    The only thing of merit that you said was that it’s easy to say it’s a scam. Being an obvious scam does tend to make that assignation rather easy. Why would you urge people to try a scam to see if it feels right for them? Would you say the same thing about drug dealing or prostitution or stealing hubcaps?

    The beauty of knowledge is applying it.

    Craig C said: “As for the religion arguments and dislikes. I have no interest in the faith part of the business. I see myself as agnostic… Now step into your neighbors yard, does he still come across as a hypocrite?”

    You just glossed over the issue of religion in the organization without making a cogent point. The religious issues are threefold:

    (1) Yes, Orrin is hypocrite because he pontificates about biblical scripture while acting like it doesn’t apply to him (e.g. behaving like a pompous, materialistic, self-aggrandizing megalomaniac while brainwashing and fleeing people).
    (2) Pushing religion (especially Orrin’s twisted version of it) at events can be off-putting and make people uncomfortable. It would appear that religion is used simply as a tool to coerce people in the organization, given how it’s applied in such a crassly manipulative manner.
    (3) Because religion can so often be a wedge issue, it’s best for businesses to be religion-neutral lest they alienate a significant segment of their consumer base. If I was to bring prospective recruits to a meeting and they got put off by Orrin’s transparently insincere bible-thumping, I would view it as a frustrating and avoidable obstacle to the growth of my business. Limiting one’s customer base to people who like that sort of thing is like trying to fight with one arm tied behind your back.

    Craig C: “It’s easy to be negative, soooo easy. Yelling, breaking crap, tearing up a relationship, typing endlessly to the faceless masses that make up the internet. How about, instead of bashing on Orrin and putting him in the same category as Mona vie and Amway, because as far as I know he wanted to rid himself of that world, based on my link above, can we take our experience, good or bad and apply it to our future endeavors? If so, you are ahead. Why must we bash? This program has helped thousands and he wants to help millions.”

    First, it’s easier to be callous and indifferent to wrongdoing that it is to take the time to post facts and well warranted criticism about it on a blog. Second, why do you care what other people do? If you want to spend all your time blowing puffs of smoke up Orrin’s ass, as your long-winded sycophantic diatribe indicates, that’s your prerogative, and I won’t ask you not to. Third, Orrin’s scams have harmed far more people than they’ve helped, and if you don’t understand that simple fact, you don’t understand arithmetic.

    Orrin was intimately associated at the highest levels with both Amway and Monavie. It’s not surprising that he would now try to distance himself from those stains on his resume.

    Craig C said: “Who cares if he makes money doing it, its going to happen, its a business.”

    Go back and read what I said about callousness and indifference to wrongdoing being the coward’s path of least resistance.

    Craig C said: “There was so much energy in creating this site, and its alllll negative. I cannot believe all the hatred hiding behind computer screens.”

    And of all the blog sites in all the towns in all the world, you had to walk into this one. Translation — if you don’t like the tone or content on this site, there are many others to choose from. Yet you came here — to be critical of people for being critical. You are blind to your own hypocrisy.

    Craig C: “Im 23, Im young and inexperienced.”

    Hmmm. And yet you have mastered the mealy-mouthed apologist shuffle like a veteran MLM scammer. Either you’re lying or your young mind was so pliable that it molded like warm putty in your upline’s hands. Go back to school sonny (or Gramps, whatever the case me be).

  102. Vogel permalink
    June 12, 2014 6:33 pm

    BTW, has anyone commented yet on that Dan Hawkins whitewash post about Orrin?

    Notice how it begins with the leading question “is Orrin a hero or just another person out for personal success at the expense of others?”

    That might have been the easiest question ever posed.

    There are so many misrepresentations and errors of omission that it’s difficult to decide where to begin tearing it apart.

  103. June 13, 2014 8:20 am

    @ Craig C,

    I can tell you with 100% certainty that you will not make any money in this business. How do I know? Because you swear you won’t become a “zombie” or a “mindless sheep”, and you have to become one of those before you will get voted into profit sharing. Contrary to what they tell you, Life Leadership is NOT a pay for performance business. Orrin controls everything about “your” business…read your policies and procedures. Orrin can take it all away from you just by your posting on this site.

  104. noteam permalink
    June 14, 2014 8:40 am

    Chris C – I read the Dan Hawkins post. What a total bunch of lies. I was there. I saw firsthand. Orrin was blatantly breaking the rules of Quixtar/Amway over and over and over again. I had been called on the carpet numerous times. So, instead of accepting responsibility for his behavior, he started trying to blame Quixtar for the problems.

    I can remember night after night how Orrin was singing the praises of Quixtar and the DeVos family. Funny how Dan didn’t mention any of this in his blog of lies.

    Then finally in 2007, when Quixtar had enough, Orrin filed his bogus lawsuit. Which he lost. Remember, it was Quixtar who was successful after well over a year of testimonies and Orrin & crew who lost a $25 million judgement.

    Also, notice in the post that Dan says 40,000 people left Quixtar and followed Orrin. He neglected to follow up with the details that the overwhelming majority of these people and leaders left Orrin when they realized what a scammer he was. And that the 40,000 people were not aware the Orrin received $3 million from MonaVie for bringing all of us over to him.

    But what about all the true leaders of integrity who sat through the trial and saw all of Orrins lies and deceit exposed in court? Pastor Dickie, COO Bobbie Dickie, Randy Haugen, Don Wilson, Fred Harties, Mark Crawford, Billy Florence, Lance Smith, Columbo DiSalvatore, Tyler Libby, and hundreds more leaders.

    Why did Orrin have over 25,000 people at a function in 2008 and now only has around 7,000? With all the supposed thousands and thousands of people who have joined his scam since then? That means over 20,000 or more have realized who a liar he is and what a scam TEAM/LIFE is.

    Open your eyes!!! This is a majorly corrupt organization!!!!!!!

    And by the way, Amway has moved on. They never talk about Orrin. They do over $12 Billion a year. Orrin was nothing to them. It’s many of us who are still around who have not been connected to Amway in any way for over 5 years, but realized all the thousands of people who were scammed for millions of dollars from this crew.

  105. noteam permalink
    June 17, 2014 8:43 am

    SUCCESS!!!! Ran into someone today who recognized me from speaking on stage years ago. She was in a different group but said she used to love hearing me on stage. She had no idea this site was out there.

    She ended up quiting on her own a few years ago after her husband and accountant finally got her to see the light regarding her thousands of dollars of losses from this scam. But she really thought she was one of the only ones and stayed in for at least a year past the point she should have citing reasons similar to the ones I recently posted about in the above post.

    She was shocked when I told her that there was not a single person in my group who had a net profit on their Schedule C the year I left. She really thought that because my group was so big, there had to have been lots of people making thousands and thousands of dollars.

    I am so glad I left. I wonder how many other people are still a part of TEAM/LIFE scam just because they continue to see large numbers of people at meetings and think everyone is making money except themselves.

    She was really shocked when I pointed her to this site and told her about the Darkangelo bankruptcy, the Huber bankruptcy, the Quixtar $25 million judgement, Orrin’s $3 million payoff for bringing us all over to MonaVie, Pastor Dickie, Bobbie Dickie, Randy Haugen, Billy Florence, etc.

    Hopefully, she will now be more vocal to others in spreading the truth about this scam.

  106. freedomhaha permalink
    June 18, 2014 3:50 am

    Vogel- Standing ovation on your last post.

    Noteam- Thank you so much for sharing that story! I love hearing stories of people leaving team and improving their lives. We cannot give up that fight on here until LIFE TEAM is no longer able to steal from people. It is my hope that the downfall of Orrin will someday be turned into a movie (as long as he doesn’t get the royalties).

  107. switch permalink
    June 19, 2014 9:13 pm

    V says-
    “BTW, has anyone commented yet on that Dan Hawkins whitewash post about Orrin?”

    bahahahahaha….I remember reading that one bro….and almost “pissing myself” at the same time.

    A funny read for sure.

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