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Binary Discussion on Facebook

September 21, 2011

Moving some comments from the Orrin Qrush thread over to a new post here. Commenter Brent Hansen copies a thread between critics and supporters on Facebook regarding binary MLM models.

Off topic again, thought I would share with you all a post I made directed towards Troy Dooly this morning, this sums up a lot of my feelings about the industry. If any of you are friends with Troy and would like to comment on his question, here is the link for this thread. Thanks Amthrax for this platform.

Troy, you are right this question is important as well as thought provoking. I agree that there is no right or wrong answer, but merely a matter of opinion.

My first reaction to your question was to think about who has more to risk from a financial standpoint, then my thought shifted to time risk, and then finally to a risk of reputation.

One could say that since owners may have invested into the millions to start a company that they are risking more, but that is a relative statement. In many situations, the several thousand that a new person may invest to launch their own company could be more of a financial burden than the millions invested by the owners on the corporate side. After all many companies are started as a “side deal”, or become a “side deal” to what the companies main business may be. Therefore if you want to talk about financial risk (and I realize this is totally subjective), I believe that the risk is equally shouldered, regardless of the amount of money that may or may not be invested.

From a time risk aspect, I believe that the distributors/associates have more to risk more than the owner of the company, merely because of the compounded and cumulative hours invested by the distributor force. If an owner works 10 hours a day for one year to build the company from a corporate standpoint, that can be easily surpassed by the cumulative hours worked by a hundred or even a thousand distributors who are also working to develop their business. If you merely look at the time investment from a “man-hours” perspective, the associates risk way more than the owners from that standpoint.

And finally, from the reputation aspect, I also have to side with the distributors/associates on that point as well. Once a company fails and bankrupts, does anyone in the field really keep track of where the owner is at and what happened to them? Usually a owner will move onto a new gig, scrape things together, and try a different model. All of us could name owners who have had several failed companies and went on to succeed in the industry later on down the road. Although I am sure that a failed company could be devastating to the reputation, that is all part of business.

Because distributors leverage personal relationships to launch their company, I feel their cumulative reputations can be more at risk than that of the company owners. After all, many people join a deal because of YOU, not because they know and trust the company, products, pay plan etc., they join because they know, like and trust you as a person. And if things go south, many times, these relationships can be tarnished for years. Friendships have ended because of failed MLM ventures, families have been split apart, and trust has been forever broken. And if a company fails the owner or small group of founders may have a risk at the loss of their personal reputations, but the compounded results can effect thousands in the field.

I know that this is all my opinion, and is totally subjective, but in an ideal world, I believe an incredible opportunity would have the following pieces in place.

1. A committed partnership with the executives and field, where there was full accountability from both sides.

2. A totally transparent corporate structure where both sides know and understand what profit margins are, and how much the company is actually earning. Publicly traded companies operate like this, they have annual reports for their stockholders, aren’t distributors similar to stockholders in the MLM arena?

3. You said this yourself Troy on Rod’s post yesterday, and I quote you.

“there are some companies who fully understand that if they keep control of their operational costs, then breakage is not relevant.”

Why not create plans with no breakage, where corporate operating costs and profits are a set margin and everything else is returned to the field? Instead of setting the distributors pay and then creating mechanisms to provide more corporate profitability, why not do the opposite? Why not provide a win-win atmosphere where people want to be involved with a company because they know, trust and believe in the founder because as you said Troy,”the founder has a passion for the mission they are on.” Furthermore a company where the founder treats the distributors like equal partners in business instead of a bunch of cows being milked for every drop they are worth.

It is high time that MLM companies begin to realize that to create loyalty and longevity, THEY MUST BEGIN TO RUN THEIR COMPANIES, LIKE ANY OTHER COMPANY, AND TREAT THEIR ASSOCIATES LIKE PARTNERS.

Thanks for the opportunity to share Troy.

Part II is as follows:

Anyone care to hear from an industry expert exactly how a binary is built? I will post several questions here as well as corresponding answers from one of the top leaders in the industry. What a blatant admission of crooked, and dishonest business practices. From my 16 year tenure in the industry, I believe this happens in 99% of the companies out there. There are exceptions, but they are few and far between, enjoy the read. Sorry Amthrax, I possibly need a new section in your blog just for my off topic stuff. Thanks again!

The original post by Ted Nuyten of
“Rick Gutman Sued by Monavie? | Direct Selling Facts & Figures”


Ken Stewart: ” Ironic! Mona Vie had no problem paying top leaders to make a move to Mona Vie, and when those leaders left their previous company, where did Mona Vie think all the people the leaders were going to bring with them were coming from? Now some Mona Vie leaders have left Mona Vie to join other companies, undoubtedly taking their team with them, and Mona Vie wants to cry foul? As the late Jim Rohn, a mentor of mine, once said, “Isn’t that interesting!” What goes around, comes around as they say!”


“Michael Collins At least we agree on something Ken….”


Ken Stewart: ” Michael, one of these days you’ll agree with more! LOL…..I try to stay away from subjective opinions and prefer objective opinions based on history, facts, industry data, case studies, and first hand experience, etc…it’s hard to argue against all that…”


Michael Collins: “Agree again!!! This is why I hate 99% of the comp plans in MLM. And my position is based on exactly the things you list!!! Who would have thunk it?”



Ken Stewart: “Told you Michael! You’re agreeing more and more! LOL…now, let’s get you into a great company and on board with the #1 team…by the way, Troy Dooley has had some great things to say about us…this would be a good time to make a move-just announced a new BMW car program, trip incentives to the home office, etc., plus have a blockbuster product coming that will be launched January 2nd…”


Michael Collins: ” Ken: I said i would NEVER build another binary. But I can tell you this: If I did I definately would NOT build two legs”


Ken Stewart: “Michael, that can be arranged! Let me know if you’re serious!”


Brent Hansen: ” Wow Michael, you have been offered a break-insert by Ken Stewart. Does that mean that you will be inserted in Ken’s group above an existing team? I thought that people actually had to build their business. Hmmmmmmm…. I thought people in MLM had integrity and character, and everything was on the up and up. Now I can see right here in public an offer to you that will allow you to “only build one team”.

Does that mean that the people who you are inserted above will be pushed further down the enrollment tree? Does that mean that the volume that you generate will not go to those people you are placed above? Incredible!! And even more incredible is the fact that you were offered that right here in a public format. If that goes on right here, one could only imagine what must go on behind closed doors.

And, right when I was going to jump into MLM with both feet, wow, what can I say? Can you believe this Ted, does these sort of things happen often in your beloved industry? Could this be protocol, or is this just a random offer? Inquiring minds want to know.”


Ken Stewart: ” Brent, based on your comments, you have a lot to learn about a binary plans, as well as the strategy involved in working a binary plan. Let me help you out as you obviously must be fairly new to the industry based on your comments-either that or you’ve been in the industry a while, but not very knowledgeable! No, people are not pushed further down the enrollment tree! The blank spots (extra positions) are already in the tree. Yes, volume still flows to those below! Even if moved into one of those spots Michael would still need to 1) enroll a few people into the one team below this existing position for qualification and rank advancement purposes, and 2) would have to build a second leg, so Michael would still have to “build a business” as put it. Next time, you would be wise to perhaps refrain from making various statements and jumping to conclusions and be a little more knowledgeable before making comments that only make you look foolish, especially when your comments insinuate there is a lack of integrity or character involved. Like I said at the outset, you obviously don’t know very much about pay plans, binary plans in particular, how they work, nor the strategy involved in working one to maximize your success!”


Ken Stewart: ” Regarding your question about is it protocol (a regular thing) or not, no it is not a regular thing. I will do it on occasion if we want to make one of our extra spots available or if there is a spot that is not being worked by someone that we can acquire, and if the person we’re talking to is a leader with a proven track of success (they’ve paid their dues plus they bring things to the table that will be of benefit to those in the one team below, then we would do something), or if someone who is a great person (say like Michael) and that person has been burned in a previous program or had a bad experience in another opportunity, as a way of helping them create an income faster and to show them that there are some great companies and opportunities out there, we might see about moving them into a spot, all of which are valid reasons! Hope this answers your “questions.”


Ken Stewart: ” Brent, one other “strategy” is to take someone who has one team below them but isn’t really working the program or is active but no doing much and connect them someone who can bring 1 team with them and have them split a spot…in essence they partner up on a spot, which makes it a win-win for both of them…or in many cases, someone who has one team below them but isn’t working the program for whatever reason is willing to either transfer their position or sell their distributorship. So, there are lots of ways that can someone can end up only having to build 1 leg to create an income, although they would still have to enroll a few people into the pre-existing team for qualification or rank advancement purposes.”


Brent Hansen: ” Oh O.K. Ken, thank you for the clarification, it sure is great to have “seasoned” guys around like yourself who know all of the ins and outs of building a successful MLM.

Out of naivety on my part, I thought you were supposed to bring people into your team, and place them below your existing team as a means of support to that team. I have heard (but I am probably incorrect) that volume should flow up from the bottom through the team as a means of support and motivation.

You sure are picking a great one to offer the “special treatment” to. I have been learning from Michael’s posts for about 6 months now, he really knows his stuff. I think he is crazy if he doesn’t take your offer. Wow, one team already built, talk about being on top of a gold mine.

Maybe you or Michael could answer a question for me. How would someone like myself, someone ” new to the industry”, “or not very knowledgeable”, obtain some of the spots or positions to which you refer? If I enrolled with your company, can I purchase extra spots, or are these reserved for top guys like you and Michael?

Is this ok to do? Are these kinds of “strategies” approved by your company? Looking forward to hearing from you and/or Michael. Thanks!”


Ken Stewart: ” My advice would be to hook up with a top leader, let him know how serious you are, and see where there might be a position available that you could take over…there are always people who took a position, but didn’t really work it and don’t have any plans to work it, and their position has one leg with some activity below it-they’d either be willing to transfer the position, maybe for the price of the distributorship fee they paid, others might transfer it outright, and others would be willing to sell their position/distributorship. Of course you are supposed to bring people into your team, but remember, taking over a position, whether it’s a gift, is transferred, or whether you buy it, you are still going to have to put some people into the one leg you are “inheriting” for qualification and perhaps rank achievement purposes. It’s not like it’s a free ride just because you have one team below you from the start, and in a binary plan, you’re not earning any income until you have a second team producing the minimum amount of points needed to complete a pay cycle, so you still have to build the business. In our particular company, an individual can only have 1 position. However, if someone is a a seasoned network with the ability to build a big team and they happen to have a lot of contacts, what often they will do is once their position is in the tree, they’ll put a family member off to the left and another family member off to the right. They don’t put the family member in for the purposes of having the family member actually be a distributor, they put those positions in for the purpose of down the road being able to use them in order to attract a major leader perhaps. They ‘ll focus on building their far left and far right legs as this automically builds the left leg of the one family member, and the right leg of the other family member. Down the road, if they know a friend who is a major leader and lets say that major leader’s company has just crashed, they can approach their friend and say “hey, I’ve got a spot that I can move you into that already has one team on the move. It’s a lot easier to build 1 leg than the 3-5 legs or more you’ll typically need in a unilevel or stairstep plan. Now, keep in mind the leader is still going to have to put some people into the one leg or team that would be below him, and he’s going to have to build a second leg in order to earn a binary check. Now, is such an offer good for the leader? Yes…Since he is a leader, will he have value to those in the one team that would be below him? Yes, he can work with those people and help them become more successful and he has a vested reason to do so. Is that good for those people in that one team? Yes? Since he has to put a few new people into that team, will some of the people in that team that will be above the new people he enrolls into that team benefit from his recruiting? Yes…He has to build a second leg in order to earn an income. Does that possibly help the friend who made him the offer and enrolled him? Yes-more volume likely means a bigger binary check + a matching bonus. Is more volume good for the company? Yes…This leader who moves into this position might help you become more successful than you otherwise would have because the position he is moving into had no one actively working the business in the first place. If this leader went to another company as a result of not being able to make such a situation possible, would he have any value to you at that point? No. Obviously he’s not putting people below your or working with you if he goes into another company. So these are all the reasons why it sometimes makes sense to make such an offer to a leader..”


Brent Hansen, ” Great advice Ken, I am takings note here on this stuff, thank you for sharing. Do you think that most of the leaders in other companies come in this way, or is this something new? How come my upline when I tried Monavie didn’t teach me this stuff? And, this might be personal, but is this how you have built your business? I have heard that you are one of the biggest leaders in the industry, is that true?”


Ken Stewart: ” Brent, it’s really about making a decision when pursuing an opportunity which puts the odds of success in your favor and that maximizes your income earning potential, then taking advantage of timing and positioning if possible, and once those pieces of the puzzle are in place, then taking all out massive action following a proven method of operation. For example, new and groundfloor deals have a 98% probability of failing within their first 2-3 years, so does getting involved with a new, groundfloor deal increase your chances for success? No! You’re hoping that it beats the odds and is still here several years from now. That’s not putting the odds in your favor, that’s trying to beat the odds, and that almost always results in failure, unless you get lucky, and no smart entrepreneur or leader bets their success on luck. Would getting involved with a deal that has a matrix pay plan put the odds of success in your favor? No! Why? Because matrix plans have historically never worked! Since 1985 at least a few thousand programs have launched with a matrix pay plan, and only 1, just 1, has had any substantial, long term success. Is getting involved with a pay plan model that has virtually never worked putting the odds in your favor and helping you to maximize your income earning potential? No! Yet, everyday people jump on the latest, greatest new deal, and everyday people jump on a deal with a matrix pay plan, and everyday some people jump on the latest, greatest, new deal with a matrix pay plan! Nothing like doubling your chances and guaranteeing your failure! The difference between knowledgeable network marketing leaders (I say that because there are a lot of so-called leaders who got lucky-they were just in the right place at the right time and many even though they’ve been in the industry for a while aren’t necessarily knowledgeable!), but the difference between the truly knowledgeable leader and the average person is that we make calculated business decisions that take into account a variety of factors before we place our bet so to speak (get involved with a company), whereas the average person makes an emotional decision. They go to a meeting or hear a conference call, they like what they hear, they like what they see, they look at the products, most will look at the pay plan, but don’t really know how they work, and after listening to a great speaker who sprinkles them with some magic fairy dust and hearing from great stories, they get excited and sign up. That’s not how you should make a decision, but that’s how most do, and that’s one reason why most fail! The other reason they fail is because they make decisions on what they like and what they think, a huge mistake. Any hugely successful traditional marketing pro knows never make a decision on what you think or like.There is a formula that very few people know except some top leaders and a few industry insiders ythat ou can follow that guarantees you make the right decision, but how much success you have and how much income you earn is up to you at that point. Unfortunately, most people, including many who’ve been in the industry for a long time, don’t know the formula. Those of us who do have the upperhand…it’s all about odds and probabilities and doing what you can to increase, not decrease, your chances of success and to maximize your income earning potential, not minimize. Most people make decisions that decrease their chances for success and that minimize their income earning potential, and then they wonder why they never succeed.”


Brent Hansen: ” Wow Ken, that is a lot of great information, I am going to have to contemplate all of this, thank you so much. So, is that what you have done with your current company? Were you brought in as one of the “top leaders”? And, how do you know and determine who is worthy to be called a “top leader” in the industry? Just curious.”


Part III is as follows:

Ok so much for tomorrow, I don’t want to take the spotlight off of our “industry leader” superstar but this episode will begin with a guest appearance by none other than Dwayne Schiller (playing the part of comedic relief, and innocent bystander)


Dwayne Schiller: ” A “Top Leader” appears on page 1 of Google organic results when researching a specific opportunity. Everyone knows that.”


Ken Stewart: ” As far as the binary plan goes, yes, this is not uncommon to have it happen. Look, its like anything in life…people that have a proven track record of success, or tremendous knowledge and experience, or talent, always are going to be treated differently. Athletes with lots of talent and the ability to perform get big contracts. Singers and bands who can sell lots of albums get better record deals. Movie stars that have big box office appeal and whose movies generate a lot of revenue get bigger deals and perks from the studios. CEO’s that have experience, talent, and a proven track record get bigger salaries and sweeter stock option packages. So, it happens in our industry just like it happens in life. Pay your dues! Most leaders generally have had to pay their dues. There’s always a few who get lucky, that were in the right place at the right time, but most have spent 10-20-30 years learning, working hard, going through ups and downs, polishing their skills, building successful teams, developing a track record, etc. In terms of the binary, positioning is much more advantageous than any other plan. It’s one of the upsides of the binary plan compared to the unilevel or stairstep breakaway plan where if you have already recruited 10 or 20 people who are on your first level and you recruit me, I’m just another one on your first level, and what the other 10 or 20 doesn’t benefit me at all. Even if you moved me into a spot in a unilevel or stairstep plan that had one team, it wouldn’t do much for me because I’m going to have to build probably 3-4 legs or more in order to reach the top of the plan and collect on more levels of pay, and even if I had one good team below me and built one good team, 2 teams in a unilevel or stairstep plan probably isn’t going to generate a real bigcheck, but in the binary plan, if I end up in a position that has one big team below it already, and I come in and build 1 big leg on my own, I can be making over $100,000 a month…While I’m no big fan of Mona Vie, to be fair to the person who brought you in, teaching much of this stuff to a new person probably wouldn’t be of any use, at least in the beginning, if for no other reason, some of these strategies are of no use until you have at least 1 and preferably 2 large leg’s or teams with a large amount of volume below them…only then does an open spot you either control or know of have any value as a carrot to offer to a leader..and most leaders want to sponsor with leaders…so, do what we most of us did. Spend the next 10-20 years learning, building, polishing your skills, creating a track record of success, and paying your dues and you’ll be likely to find yourself in some potentially lucrative situations, in part because you’ve earned it! My partner and I have had some tremendous success, but we’ve also experienced the downside as well as we’ve been in the industry for a combined 65 years (each of us over 30 years)….I wish I knew then when I was first getting started what I know now…the one thing I can tell you is its far cheaper to learn from someone else’s experience than it is your own. OK, it’s 3 am where I’m at as I am traveling internationally, so I am calling it a night…”

Ken Stewart: ” We have built our organizations typically from the ground up, and we’ve had groups of 150,000-500,000 or more between us…in most cases we were in at the beginning, either as founders/co-founders, or some of the first involved, so we had to be the ones to create the growth and build the organizations-companies don’t do the recruiting and building for you…occasionally we’ve been able to put ourselves in a position where one team was basically in place, but generally we’ve been in at the beginning and had to create the growth ourselves…My definition of a top leader would probably be someone who has a tremendous amount of experience, is very knowledgeable about the industry (pay plans, regulatory compliance, etc.), has built large, successful organizations and has a track record of success if they’ve been involved in more than one company, has consistently been a top achiever in various programs if they’ve been involved with more than one company, has helped numerous people achieve success, is a good presenter and/or trainer, etc. There’s no one criteria, it’s a combination of a variety of factors, attributes, and qualities..”


Brent Hansen: ” ‎Dwayne, love the humor…hahaha… I guess there is one thing that bothers me about what you have said Ken and this is it. I know I don’t have nearly the experience, or knowledge of anyone on this thread, so you can all correct me if I am wrong. But somehow in my small and limited understanding of the industry, isn’t this all a bit hypocritical?

The leaders I engaged with were teaching to do one thing and the business would work, and obviously Ken from what you are saying, they were probably not building it the way they were teaching. They were the big “MLM” type who have tons of experience and knowledge, so I am sure they were given special consideration when they joined the company, as a matter of fact they all made over $100,000 their first month or two in the company.

And although I understand your train of thought about the “athletes”, “paying their dues” etc. etc. … doesn’t that still seem a little strange to teach one thing, and then do something completely different. It make me feel kind of silly now that I think of it, I was probably engaging in activity that for most would never take them to a top position at all. I guess I better learn some more before I engage in this industry again. I would hate to spin my wheels as I have in the past only to discover that I was part of a team who was “positioned” on the 99 yard line of a 100 yard football field. Of course those leaders are going to win when they move with a group, and are positioned in profit, anyone could do that.

I appreciate your knowledge and time Ken and hope to learn more from you in the future. I enjoy learning from those who are much wiser than I. Thanks!”:


Dwayne Schiller: ” Me too. I love to learn”


Ken Stewart: “There is no law-it’s based on company policy…not sure I understand what you mean by “break insertion.” There’s nothing being broken when it comes to someone assuming a position in a binary plan, regardless of whether the position was gifted, transferred, or sold. All of these situations require company approval obviously. As far as individual companies, most that I know of run in the 6-12 month range in terms of inactive status…auto ship has nothing to do with it…you can be active every month without having an auto-ship order in any type of pay plan and in any company…you guys need to remember something-this is not uncommon, but then again it is not a common practice either…what happens up above you in a binary plan isn’t as nearly as important as what happens below you! I think you’re spending too much time worried about someone might end up above you…look, there was no guarantee that they would have ended up below you anyway! They could have been placed in the enroller’s other leg, in which case they’d have no value to you! In fact, they’d be a competitive leg at that point. At least if a leader ends up above you, you stand to benefit, both from his/her recruiting as well as their support, i.e. meetings and trainings, 3 way calls, conference calls, etc…..They were probably building it the way they teach it-however, there are special situations that can occur, which can be of value to the company, the enroller, and the downline in terms of making it possible for a good leader to join your company versus seeing them join another company…As I mentioned previously, this doesn’t happen all that often, so I think you’re making much ado about not much…like I said, what happens above doesn’t determine your income-it’s what you do down below you in your 2 teams that makes the difference…”

Ken Stewart: ” Now, if someone is literally being inserted into a unilevel or stairstep type plan, that can affect the income of people in the upline as everybody is being moved down one or farther away…since a binary doesn’t pay on levels, even if you actually inserted them into the tree with a new spot, it doesn’t negatively affect the volumes or incomes of anyone either above or below the spot that is being inserted…”


Dwayne Schiller: ” Correct me if I am wrong, but if a “Top Leader” is granted a beneficial position where spillover has already filled out one leg of the binary and he brings a very large group of folks over from another company to fill out the other leg, isn’t that a little bit of an unfair advantage over someone trying to build two equal legs. He has done almost no recruiting work at all assuming his old downline simply follows him to the next opportunity.”


Ken Stewart: ” that’s one reason why its not a big deal to have someone moved into a pre-existing spot in a binary….it doesn’t negatively affect the volumes or the incomes of either those above the spot or those below the spot as the binary doesn’t pay based on levels…in addition, the person doesn’t earn any income until they build a second leg…it is the second leg that determines the income, not the leg they’ve been inserted into..”

Dwayne Schiller: ” Most binaries that I know about where a “Top Leader” is inserted means they only need to build one leg.”

Ken Stewart: “Dwayne, you can look at it as advantage, but then again is it advantageous to have that leader join your company or go elsewhere? Join your company! Since that leader has to put people down below the team he is being positioned on top of, is that advantageous to you if you are in the same leg? Yes, some of them will end up below you, people that you otherwise never would have had! If they’re a good leader, will having them in the upline held you build your business? Yes! You’ll probably be able to tap into conference calls, meetings and trainings, probably even 3 way calls if you happen to prospect someone who’s had some success or has been a leader in another company, all things that wouldn’t be available to you if he/she wasn’t in the upline…Finally, chances are he/she worked their butt off developing relationships in that previous company, training them, working with them, spending money on them, etc…there’s usually a reason why lots of people will follow someobody! Is that an advantage, that they can bring a lot of people with them? Of course it is! They’ve earned it! He/she have done the work, you just haven’t seen it…You keep assuming that if they hadn’t moved into a spot above you, that they would be below you, and that’s not the case. The enroller could have put them in their other leg, in which case you have zero benefit compared to the situation I outlined up above…Like I said, its not the people above you that are going to make the difference in your success and that’s going to be responsible for your income-it’s what is happening below you in your group, and you’ve got total control over that! Regarding the only needing to build 1 leg, typically you have to have a certain number of personally enrolled in each team to qualifiy for a binary check, then in many cases you have to have someone in your enrollment line in each leg reach a certain level of achievement to rank advance or increase your earnings, you typically need either a certain number of people personally enrolled in each team in order to earn matching bonuses or a certain amount of volume, etc..typically you have to contribute the leg you’re being given so to speak…its not like here’s a leg, now just build 1 leg, and don’t do anything with the one leg already below you. Most well designed plans and binary companies in fact have requirements in place that penalize you in terms of earning less than you otherwise would if you don’t have at least someone in each of your 2 teams that has reached a certain level of achievement based on your enrollment tree-they do this to prevent the very situation you are talking about! Anyway, I am calling it a night’s 4 am where I’m at…what I would tell you is don’t worry about someone up above you and what they may or may not have been given, focus on building your 2 teams, create a big check, develop a track record of success and a good reputation, and down the road you’ll be able to perhaps take advantage of some unique situations…Every big hitter was at one time new to the industry! You have the same opportunity that all of us had-we were new at one time too…”

Dwayne Schiller: “i see Ken, that is making pretty good sense to me now. What else can you teach me?”

Ken Stewart: ” Too much to mention in a few posts! LOL…you’re wanting 30 years of experience, knowledge, education, etc., in an hour? Several hours? Isn’t going to happen…it would take at least a few months to a year to cover even the basic stuff…anyway, I’ve got to get some sleep…hopefully you’ve learned some stuff and how to look at things from the right perspective…or at least a new perspective…”


27 Comments leave one →
  1. Peachy permalink
    September 21, 2011 4:27 pm

    What else is there to say. Anybody still interested in getting into this industry is certifiable nuts.
    Thanks for the post.

  2. Steve (Peachy) permalink
    September 21, 2011 4:58 pm

    Wow, what a revealing piece. Please all of you who are thinking, or are already involved in Team or any other MLM read this thoroughly. We all here hope it opens your eyes.

  3. Burned Out With MV permalink
    September 22, 2011 4:11 am

    The binary is probably the worst form of MLM comp plans for all the reasons given to the IBO though it’s the easiest to sell the concept to someone with no MLM experence as it sounds easy and you get all this so called “help” from above. That may work well for a short time, however the probablility is you will be placed on the “inside” of a major player who is not dropping down anything into your downline but “nonsense retoric” and “buy my tools pitches”, then your sponsor quits / goes inactive / putting all his new people on his other side thus creating your local competition and you are orphoned. Which is what happened to me and I almost got into a bar fight with my MV upline over this point before I quit.

    The best case is your are on the outside of a heavy hitter and one side takes off (Power Leg) and he has two of them, or 3 or 4 depending on the pin level, still your so called (Profit Leg) is generally the problem and guess what they do with all that unpaid commision on your Power Leg? Trips and perks for the top guns of course. 🙂

    Remember this very well,


  4. Speak Your Truth permalink
    September 22, 2011 10:47 am

    And some just stole others so they could rank in this beautifully designed farce; for the less than 1% to benefit from.

  5. Mike Collins permalink
    September 23, 2011 8:43 am

    The question is: if the average person knew what is really involved in making serious money in MLM, how many would be left to recruit into the downlines? If it was common knowledge that this is what it really takes then everyone would be looking to be “positioned”. Nobody would be left who would want to be “under” someone else.

  6. Speak Your Truth permalink
    September 23, 2011 9:18 am


    Agreed..and how is that fair buisness for those who can’t or are ‘offered a ‘position’…you know the little guy they ‘care’ so much about? It is as cut-throat as it gets and they have the audacity to claim they are the best… bash.. and are different from Anything else out there..especially.. Corporate America…they make Corp. American look like the best opprotunity on the Planet!

  7. Speak Your Truth permalink
    September 23, 2011 9:19 am

    correction…who AREN’T offered a ‘position’.

  8. Vogel permalink
    September 23, 2011 5:31 pm

    It sure does make a job in corporate America look better by comparison. The comp plan is a lot easier to explain too — “you will be paid X dollars per hour/year with y benefits and z bonuses” (and notice that they pay you instead of vice versa…what a novel concept!). In contrast, trying to figure out an MLMs arcane comp plan is next to impossible for most people. No wonder the companies make additional cash by providing seminars to teach distributors what the comp plans mean (sort of), as absurd as that seems.

  9. Speak Your Truth permalink
    September 23, 2011 5:54 pm


    LOL..I would rather clean toliets, or do any other menial job, with joy..or work in Corporate America,..than have to be a con artist and lose my soul. 🙂 The worst kicker and what is intollerable to me is the con’s just call it ‘just doing business’ as if any part of it is the honorable thing to do.

  10. Brent Hansen permalink
    September 24, 2011 4:52 pm

    Our Star has returned folks. After a two week leave of absence he is back to offer more knowledge and light.

    Ken Stewart Typically, you’re allowed to contact any of those you have personally enrolled in the program you are leaving about the new opportunity you are promoting…those that decide to follow you into the new program do likewise…the problem arises when you start contacting those you didn’t personally enroll…however, if one is a major leader, and they are leaving one company to join another, it doesn’t take long for the word to circulate. If the leader that is leaving is then contacted by someone they didn’t personally enroll in the previous program, the leader is in safe waters as they didn’t approach that person-that person contacted or approached them…Technically, if a leader is moving from one company to another, and the new opportunity is not considered a competitor (selling similar products), provided he does not crossline recruit, or violate some term or condition of the previous company’s distributor agreement, he/she actually entitled to keep the income he/she was earning in the previous company…however, if a company is big enough, they can hit you with termination, knowing that depending on the income you were earning, you probably aren’t going to fight them. That being said, companies have lost cases in the past and were required to fork over some tremendous amounts of money to the distributor who pursued legal action.

  11. September 26, 2011 9:02 am

    “totally subjective” what?

  12. Burned Out With MV permalink
    September 27, 2011 9:11 am

    It’s all “do as I say and not what I do” ….. cross line sponsoring, stacking, bulk buying on a downlines account, ghost accounts, real domain name capture pages, recruting from other MLM’s, tool scams, rally perks, ect, ect, ect.

    This is how the top guns clear pin levels at blinding speed and the average new prospect runs out of friends and family who will still speak to them in about a week and a half, get’s pissed off in a month or two and drops out.

  13. whoknew permalink
    September 27, 2011 10:12 am

    @ Burned Out With MV
    this crap is so true. i was with organogold until recently. i know an “emerald” and a diamond who have ghost accounts to buy through to meet and/or maintain qualifications. in fact they tell everyone to use their last name as passwords so they can access their accounts whenver they want to, usually for the purpose of buying products. the emrald does spend about $2-3 grand per month doing this to earn about 2 to 4 times as much. he openly taught me and others about it and didn’t think it was wrong. i suppose this crap happens with all mlms or most.

  14. Speak Your Truth permalink
    September 27, 2011 8:25 pm


    That is exactly what they did in the Team Mv lief..they had everyone register people with their last names. Hmmm….very interesting this must be right out of the MLM corruption play book. Sounds like industry wide proceedures. Such ethics…

  15. Brent Hansen permalink
    September 30, 2011 9:29 pm

    @BurnedOut, you got it, and are right on the money! This is how MLM is built! Product based pyramid schemes are not about building an organization anymore, they are about learning to position and market yourself as a leader so you get preferential treatment from companies and heavy hitters. They all deny it, but the evidence is stacking up!

  16. Burned Out With MV permalink
    October 13, 2011 7:18 am

    I did all that crap myself in R3G on a smaller scale before I woke up and saw it was all a scam, how do you think your big name new best friend on stage can sell it on e-bay for $99 a case with free shipping and deny it, and the friends and family you con into this pays about $150 if they believe you that MV or any of it’s new product lines really do anything health wise in the first place.

    Now this TEAM thing comes in out of left field to US market saturation, I pitty the poor basterds just getting in, at least they have places like this to check out which were not out there when it was just starting out, hopefully they pay attention to us.

  17. Speak Your Truth permalink
    October 13, 2011 7:47 am

    Burned Out~

    You nailed it! The deception is a disgrace.

  18. Burned Out With MV permalink
    October 14, 2011 4:05 am

    That is the whole concept in a nut shell and the real “why” behind the “Go Star in 48 hours” hype they preach, a new prospect blows thru their warm market to start the seed of belief it will actually work.

    The basic old school pitch once you closed the prospect was a 3 case bulk order to start and thery get 2 more to do the same in less than a week so they get a piece of the money back or $400 to get in and you get back $130 and they think it’s that easy for the money to flow back that fast. Of course we all know it dosent last.

  19. brent hansen permalink
    October 16, 2011 3:23 pm

    Ok guys, we interrupt all broadcasting to bring you this message! Just as I SUSPECTED, Orrin Woodward was sponsored by Ken Porter into Monavie, and it is confirmed here in this interview with Ken Porter.
    Why does this matter, and what does it mean? It means Orrin only had to build ONE, yes 1, UNO, ISA, a single leg when he came into MV. I will not explain how I know this for now, but trust me on this one. There was some massive positioning in the binary that occured on this transaction. That is how you hit Presidential in one month. This is how the game is played in this arena. @Michael, I am looking forward to your comments here.
    This should enrage all of you who are building 2 legs, and believing that you have a shot at the MV opportunity. This is the exact thing I tried to make you aware of on the Binary and Facebook thread This is how it is done, and it was done no differently for Team than for any other organization out there.

  20. brent hansen permalink
    October 16, 2011 3:24 pm

    Question to Ken Porter:
    “Two very successful leaders in your organisation are Brig Hart and Orrin Woodward who you personally enrolled. How where you able to sign them up? Did you knew Brig Hart and Orrin Woodward already before you enrolled them?

    The Answer:
    “No, I did not know them personally, but as I am a firm believer in “nurturing and developing” relationships, I always know somebody who knows somebody who knows somebody. Both Brig and Orrin came through unlikely sources that made the mutual introductions. It was a result of my strategy to maintain great relations with successful people in and outside the MLM world.”
    He only forgot to communicate the part about the “break-insert” within an existing team, which gave them millions of roll up volume, and the possible $$$$ deals that occured to bring them in. The rest is history !!!! Was this disclosed to all of you? Do you know the facts?

  21. Speak Your Truth permalink
    October 16, 2011 4:13 pm

    Interrupt all broadcasting…lol…Nothing shocks me and I knew Ken Porter somehow was connected…it is just pathetic how they expect people to ‘accept’ this normal business and the worst tragedy people won’t even get it or SEE it for what it means to them..goes back to the thought reform and undue influence…

    Thanks for sharing…I have to escape the reality for a while before I really throw up.

    Thanks for the find and information…How will they spin this…they just did…it is NO BIG DEAL…it is about nuturing relationships…NO it is about the MONEY… Just business though..unbelievable. Another smooth talker.

  22. Used to be "all-in" permalink
    October 16, 2011 5:10 pm

    I was told when we entered Mona Vie that Orrin had been sponsored by Ken Porter but didn’t think anything of it at the time. I was told that Orrin needed to be sponsored somewhere, and Mona Vie did it as a reward to Ken because of all his work developing Mona Vie’s compensation plan and helping put the company together.

    Brent – do you have proof that Orrin was given a “break-insert” and only had to build one leg? In reality if this was true, I’m sure he still built three legs to take advantage of the multiple business centers.

    On a side note, I was also told that Larry Van Bus Kirk (who was upline of Orrin in Amway), told Orrin he wanted to go under him in Mona Vie since he had long been Larry’s mentor and he wanted to pay him back for it. It was used as an example of how benevolent Larry was. This might be all very true, but was curious if anyone knew more? Since there were so many other half truths or lies that I was given, maybe there is another story? I’m curious to know if this ties into any of this.

  23. brent hansen permalink
    October 16, 2011 5:54 pm

    “Built” three legs, or positioned 3 legs? The word “built” would imply that it was a ground up effort. You are free to believe whatever you choose about how this played out, but for now I will have to decline to respond to your question. Thanks.

  24. Used to be "all-in" permalink
    October 16, 2011 6:25 pm

    Yes, “positioned” would be a better word, no disagreement there.

  25. Burned Out With MV permalink
    October 17, 2011 11:23 am


  26. Speak Your Truth permalink
    October 17, 2011 11:27 am

    FIRED UP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  27. das permalink
    October 17, 2011 3:03 pm

    Criticism is the death-gurgle of a non-achiever. Or a fraud that doesn’t want to be found out! HA! FIRED UP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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