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Do As I Say, Not As I Do: Team Leaders’ Bankruptcy Filings

September 30, 2011

This article was originally written on September 30, 2011


Most of the leaders on TEAM have been involved with Orrin Woodward for many years. Before LIFE, they were in MonaVie. Before MonaVie, they were in Amway/Quixtar. These leaders have walked across stage countless times and have been praised for their financial successes, their personal development, and their dedication to the goal of going to a million.

What if it’s all a lie?

I wrote a few weeks ago about the foreclosure and strategic default initiated by Policy Council member George Guzzardo. It prompted quick spin from Guzzardo himself on his personal blog. As that post and my investigation into Orrin Woodward’s own anonymous blogging exploits demonstrated, TEAM’s leaders don’t necessarily practice what they preach.

This is important for distributors to know, because they are in a relationship where they are being counseled about finances and ethics by these very people. If distributors knew that some of their upline leaders have (1) filed for bankruptcy, (2) initiated a strategic default on a real-estate property, or (3) engaged in hate-filled, anonymous blogging (at the same time they denounced such activity), would distributors remain involved?

I have recently come into possession of the bankruptcy filing documents for current and former TEAM Round Table Leaders, Chuck and Nancy Cullen, Joe and Laura Darkangelo, and Mark and Anna Huber:

Do note that according to Section 107 Federal Bankruptcy Code, bankruptcy filing documents are public record.

Pouring through these documents, I’ve uncovered a few points worth further discussion.

Chuck and Nancy Cullen Bankruptcy Filing Notes

The Cullen’s filing was made in April, 2009. This is their bio from the TEAM website:

Chuck and Nancy Cullen represent a couple within Team that worked hard as employees and self-employed business owners and then used the skills they developed in those areas within the training system. Both Chuck and Nancy have master’s degrees. Chuck taught high school English, was a basketball and track coach, and also worked as a self-employed manufacturer’s representative.  Nancy worked as an elementary school teacher and a reading specialist. After reading a few of Robert Kiyosaki’s books, Chuck invited his brother and his brother’s good friend, Mark Paul, to show them the Team training system. Chuck was completely impressed at the sheer number of people at one of the Tuesday night meetings. Chuck and Nancy now have the ability to live their priorities rather than their obligations. Thus far, they have strengthened their faith, their marriage, and their decision making skills.  Chuck and Nancy have always been huge dreamers, but thanks to Team, today they are dreamers with a vehicle and they are excited about helping others achieve success with MonaVie. 

Chuck and Nancy Cullen

The Cullens reported that they were self-employed in Internet Sales for the past five years (Page 19).

They accumulated over $42,000 in credit card debt and an additional $28,000 in a bank loan (Pages 15-16).

As of April, 2009, the Cullen’s monthly income was $4,155.59, with net $2,132.70 coming from profit sharing (TEAM) and net $2,022.89 coming from commissions (MonaVie) (Page 20).

No reported business expenses (Line 16, Page 21).

Zero charitable contributions (Page 21).

Income in 2007 was listed as $47,865.00. In 2008, it was $30,857.25 (Page 23). Up through April, 2009, income was at $10,389.09, which pro-rates annually to $31,167.27. Didn’t Orrin Woodward say that MonaVie would be paying the top leaders in the business several times that which Amway/Quixtar was paying them? It doesn’t look like that to me from the Cullen’s income statements.

Joe and Laura Darkangelo Bankruptcy Filing Notes

From the Darkangelo’s TEAM bio:

Joe Darkangelo was a successful business man before joining the Team training system and MonaVie. Joe has worked as a Sales Manager in the distribution business and is a franchisor in the Detroit area. Laura is a stay at home mother, and is dedicated to leading and helping the women on her team. Joe and Laura have two young children, and they love developing and improving the relationship they have with their loved ones. Joe first introduced to the Team training system from his neighbor down the street, and after his first seminar, he decided to pursue success by implementing Team’s system of leadership information. With great support from his mentors, Tim and Amy Marks, Joe and Laura have a drastically altered their lives at home and in their own business. They are both committed to the system and Team’s vision of going to a million people.

Joe and Laura Darkangelo

Judging from their September, 2009 bankruptcy filing documents, it looks like TEAM’s system of leadership and support from their mentors “drastically altered” the Darkangelo’s lives and business in a bad way.

Seven years employed by Darkangelo & Assoc./I Drinka Da Juice (Page 22).

Very little in savings accounts (Page 11).

Average monthly income in 2009 was $5,469.77. Average monthly expenses totaled $7,018.15 (Pages 22-23). No reported business expenses, but those could have been filed under the S-Corporation (Pages 22-23).

Zero charitable contributions (Page 23).

Over $252,000 in credit card debt (Pages 15-19).

Income from 2008 totaled $22,463.00. Income from January to September, 2009 totaled $41,840.00. Does that look like MonaVie Emerald income to you? The Darkangelo’s are still listed as MonaVie Emeralds on the MonaVie corporate website.

It’s unclear what assets, if any, are held by the Darkangelo’s corporations, Darkangel & Associates and I Drinka Da Juice.

Mark and Anna Huber Bankruptcy Filing Notes

The Hubers are currently being recognized as Round Table members in TEAM. From their TEAM bio:

Mark and Anna Huber looked pretty happy to most of their friends. Mark was an engineer and Anna was a nail-technician. They had a nice house, nice cars, and what looked like a happy home. But behind the scene there was massive six-figure debt, overdue loan payments, and a strained relationship. After seeing the Team training system, they got a very slow start. But thanks to a caring support team and the continuous training system they chose to embrace, they started to take off. As they applied some of the principles learned from Team, their decision making was greatly improved.  Mark and Anna enjoy the uncommon freedom to design their own time schedules. They are an example of how an educational and mentoring system can change lives.

Mark and Anna Huber

It doesn’t appear like the Huber’s financial situation has gotten better, judging from their October, 2010 bankruptcy filing.

The Hubers have been involved with Huber Enterprises, LTD, for 9 years. This business was designated as their TEAM profit sharing business. Their MonaVie business, on the other hand, is called Starfish Acquisitions, LLC (Page 49).

Combined average monthly income between Mark and Anna was $10,517.75. Monthly expenses, however, totaled $11,162.46, with $5777.46 of that being classified as business expenses.

From this example, if you are a high leader in TEAM, your monthly expenditures are going to be a lot more than the $500/month figure I quoted from MLM Punisher! I’d really like for some of the TEAM proponents to explain this.

Furthermore, in an addendum to their bankruptcy filing, the Hubers list the income and expenses for their MonaVie and TEAM Training businesses. Net income for the 2010 (through August) was just $28,834 ($75,053.96 gross and $46,219.70 in expenses).

In 2008, they listed their income to be $157,089.00. In 2009, it was $94,202.00. In 2010, it was $75,053.96 (Page 43). If their primary business was MonaVie and TEAM, their business got progressively worse in three years. Like with the Cullens and Darkangelos, this conflicts with statements made by Orrin Woodward about the MonaVie compensation plan when compared with the Amway/Quixtar plan. The Hubers are still listed as MonaVie Diamonds, but it sure doesn’t look like they are rolling in the Diamond money with MonaVie.

At the time of filing, there was very little money in the Hubers’ savings account (Page 12).

Had the Hubers fallen behind on their Federal and State income taxes? Sure looks like it (Pages 22-23).

Furthermore, there was a substantial amount of credit card debt, over $66,000, listed in the bankruptcy filing (Pages 24-32).

Zero charitable contributions (Page 37).

As with the Darkangelos, the Hubers had separate business entities for their TEAM and MonaVie businesses. It’s unclear from the bankruptcy documents how those were affected.

Concluding Thoughts

As with my entry on Guzzardo, the purpose of this post is not to revel in the financial misery of these TEAM leaders. Going through a bankruptcy is a life-changing and supremely stressful event.

That said, TEAM members have to look really hard in the mirror and ask themselves if their leaders are truly doing what they say they are doing. Do they deserve or warrant their members’ trust when they hide or spin away these facts? Are they qualified to teach about Finances, one of the precious 8F’s in LIFE?

Lastly, I really hope there’s no spin from Orrin Woodward or his leaders about how bankruptcy can be a good thing — a teachable moment — and I certainly don’t want to hear from them that Abraham Lincoln or Thomas Jefferson went through bankruptcy themselves!

Update 2012-10-26: See a visual timeline of key events during the TEAM Leaders’ bankruptcy periods.

240 Comments leave one →
  1. Brent Hansen permalink
    September 30, 2011 9:24 pm

    This is pretty hard-hitting Amthrax, great piece. This is exactly what I figured would and was happening behind the scenes when Team went to Monavie. This helps explain why Life is now emerging as their model and they are distancing themselves from Monavie. They were lead to a horrible model, plan and program, and a few profited at the expense of the many.
    The real tragedy here is that to the best of my knowledge, all three of these couples are still chasing the dream. Wouldn’t it be wise to separate from those who have profited at your expense? The cognitive dissonance has got to have them all perplexed at this point in the game. In the last month I have had several conversations with one of the gentlemen here and he has acted as if business is rolling, and never missed a beat. Very interesting!

  2. Speak Your Truth permalink
    September 30, 2011 9:51 pm

    Excellect work on the Article and the facts Amthrax!

    Their lies, deception, and fake lifestyle images are unconscionable!

    Wonder how many more bankruptcy are in the hiding?

  3. Kevin S. Crukley permalink
    September 30, 2011 11:34 pm

    WOW!

    What more does a new prospect need to read to understand that FACTS speak the TRUTH.

    What a LIFE to live.

  4. October 1, 2011 12:27 am

    I would like to say I’m surprised, but I’m not. I have suspected for years that these self proclaimed awesome people were phoneys. I left a comment at Orrin’s blog wondering why all these successful people were going tits up and I expect no response.

    Excellent work Amthrax, you keep setting the bar a bit higher for the rest of us!

    It’s good people have the opportunity to see the reality of what TEAM is about for what I believe is the majority of the participants.

  5. humiliated permalink
    October 1, 2011 8:07 am

    Excellent article Amthrax. Are the Cullens’ still involved? Does anyone know what their ranking was with MV?

    It would be interesting to search all of these “diamonds” with MV and see how many have actually claimed bankruptcy.

  6. October 1, 2011 11:26 am

    Wow, this is an eye-opener. It’s nice to know Amthrax does his homework and lets us know that bankruptcy files are made public record. It’ll be interesting to see TEAMers’ response on this post. Hope it motivates them to do their own research.

  7. outside looking in permalink
    October 1, 2011 12:18 pm

    Well, apparently something is working. According to Orrin’s latest blog post.

  8. October 1, 2011 12:33 pm

    According to Orrin’s post, one of the keynote speakers at the Columbus Major will be Oliver Demille, a man whose background and university are thoroughly discussed and debunked here:

    http://themakingofauniversity.blogspot.com/
    http://themakingofauniversity.blogspot.com/2009/01/diploma-demille.html

    I wonder if LIFE is going to become one of those non-accredited “universities” handing out phony degrees and diplomas sometime in the future.

  9. outside looking in permalink
    October 1, 2011 12:43 pm

    Still, multiple RT’s and above etc. Or were they all given groups they did not build just to fool everyone that “it’s exploding”?

  10. Speak Your Truth permalink
    October 1, 2011 12:45 pm

    Yea, Amthrax good point and thanks for all you do….

    The “Education for American”….OMg..haahahah… what a joke!

    We know how their ‘financial advice must be helping American!

  11. October 1, 2011 2:39 pm

    If one were to take Orrin at his word, it’s pretty clear there is some degree of excitement within TEAM for the launch of LIFE on November 1, 2011. Everyone is in the honeymoon phase of this new business, so naturally one would expect an uptick in numbers.

    What is really important is 3 months, 6 months, 1 year down the road. Are people better off financially in this business or not?

    I personally saw this kind of growth during the Amway to Quixtar transition back in 1999. People were excited for the launch of Quixtar. Yet, the launch was nothing like what had been promoted and/or promised. Many people dropped out in the year or two after the Quixtar launch. I would expect something similar to happen with LIFE, if only because in my mind, it’s the same deal with a different name.

  12. Speak Your Truth permalink
    October 1, 2011 6:29 pm

    Amthrax~

    I believe you hit the nail on the head. They can create ‘excitement=major hype’ around anything that they can get people to ‘believe’ is going to be different.

    You are right the major hype from Amway to Quixtar in 1999, wasn’t that it was any different than before but the ‘name change’ was the ticket and it going to the internet at the time created some major excitement…expecially the name change because we didn’t have to use every dirty trick to Avoid, Distract, Jump through hoops backwards..use our best ‘sales’ skills..lol…I mean ‘deceptive skills’, and those before that who were best at handling this objection never did have to say the word….AMWAY..lol.

    You get so good at this even when they sign the app. most wouldn’t even pay attention to it because you made it as the quick final ‘technicallity’… they wouldn’t even care they just signed up in Amway! And if they did notice.. you had already worked ‘the magic’.. deceptive skills so well…you had already ‘sold them’..on financial freedom…such a shame. This is the only way they can get results…through deceptive practices…doesn’t matter why MLM name they call themselves the attrition rate doesn’t change at least not for the better.

    The prelaunch did create some fast growth, and going to the ‘internet was a bonus’ they were keeping up with the times…lol.. and is exactly what is probably happening with lief (even though whatever numbers they are blowing out, most likely are hyped ) but ‘holding them in’ after that…well..we already know the answer to that. This is where the ‘system’ comes in… That has always been the real secret and is why they have to change your belief system and use thought reform quick!

  13. brent hansen permalink
    October 1, 2011 9:14 pm

    @Amthrax, you are right on, it is the same deal with a different name. Best case scenario of earning from the network is a 10 to 1 ratio, that is a mathematical failure from the network of 90% minimum, but could be higher with mitigating factors.

    An even starker reality is when you figure the cost of product in Life vs any other MLM. Most companies have seriously hyper-inflated products, but I believe that the Life product is even more so. Seriously now, how much could it cost to duplicate a CD? I don’t know if the PC that talked to me was being serious or joking around, but he told me a CD costs 3 cents to copy, therefore there was much more profit with Team, but that is simply not true.

    I was first told that the payout would be 75% which I felt would be very easily done considering the cost of product, but then when I received more info on the plan I discovered it was only a 50% payout with a yet undecided override at the top. When I asked where the other 25% was, I was told that lots of the money would be set aside for further legal battles.

    Bottom line is even if they are paying out 60% on a $50 a month package, Team is still making bank by retaining 40% or $20 on the corporate side. If a CD pack cost $5.00 to manufacture, and you are earning $20 that is a huge margin.

    Bottom line is the ratio is very similar to most of the other MLMs out there, and the few will still be earning at the expense of the masses. They could have moved numbers around, and payed the same money out but bring more people to profit but they are simply to greedy, so they are loading up the top just like I expected.

  14. No Team For Me permalink
    October 1, 2011 11:11 pm

    Brent – great point on the markup. Remember, Orrin & Crew are the same ones who used to complain about the 30% markup concept of Jay VanAndel in Amway. Seems a bit hypocritical when you look at their markup. At least with Amway, we were getting quality products which we were already spending money on. Not many families are already spending money on over-inflated CD’s. And if they do buy John Maxwell, etc. they are not buying 12-20 different John Maxwell CD’s each and every month.

    They’ve over-inflated the price of the CD’s and definitely over-inflated the volume of CD’s people are expected to purchase. Ironically, the number one topic on just about every CD…..is to buy more CD’s. How ridiculous.

  15. Just Asking permalink
    October 2, 2011 6:45 am

    In Orrin’s post it says: “The LIFE TEAM just had its best single-day performance ever. With just under 400 people last night signing up for leadership training.” My question is, did the existing TEAM members automatically get signed up for LIFE or do they need to sign up for it along with the Monavie and TEAM pieces? I was under the impression that this was a third alternative (i.e. the LLR CDs were going to become the LIFE CDs thereby making people buy yet another set of CDs if they were doing LIFE as well as the rest). I could be totally incorrect, but if that is correct and they are in a pre-launch status, wouldn’t that really mean that the 400 people who signed up are already on TEAM and properly just upgraded their training package to include the LLR (LIFE) CDs?

  16. brent hansen permalink
    October 2, 2011 7:34 am

    NTFM, it is definitely an interesting and vicious cycle. Any MLM system that simply promotes itself will perpetuate to a certain point. The interesting thing about Team, Legacy and ALL of the former Amway/Quixtar systems is the fact that their whole hypothesis was blatantly false.

    The foundational belief behind their systems are that a human being in his current emotional, intellectual, and entire state of being is “not good” enough to succeed. The very premise of their entire system would have us all believe that God did not give us all the ability, and capability to rise above, succeed, or conquer. The philosophy they would have us believe is that we are not equipped with enough character, integrity, work ethic, leadership skills etc., to build a business to the point of achieving success as we would define it, thus the need for a “system”. We have all heard that when we “think”, “act”, or “believe”, like a diamond, then we will be a diamond. Nothing could be further from the truth than this idea. They would have us believe that the only way we could ever possibly succeed is to CHANGE WHO WE ARE, AND WHAT WE BELIEVE, THIS IS A LIE! You are 100% correct in saying that “Ironically, the number on topic on just about every CD….is to buy more CD’s” that is totally ridiculous, I agree. The “business building” strategies and theories that were seldom discussed simply do not apply to the A/Q model or the MV model because the mathematics of both of those plans have and always will require a 97% failure rate as the plans and companies are currently structured. No matter what strategy is employed, 97% plus of everyone who is currently attached to the “system”, or was attached to the “system”, will be operating their “business” in the red each month. Their entire existence in the industry is built upon a sandy foundation. Models built upon the failures of others are evil and unsustainable.

    The top scam artists in the industry know and understand that they are in an unsustainable model, so their modus operandi is either to go from company to company raking it in at each new “launch” their downline follows them to, or to find another source of income which those who are from an A/Q background are experts at. In recent correspondence with the blogger “Tex”, who many of you know, I discovered an underlying belief that A/Q is a great model, if it were not for the “tool” companies. I wonder how many people might believe this? Which comes first the chicken or the egg? If the MLM models put the money in the correct places, and actually created viable models, the need for tool companies and “secondary” incomes would greatly diminish. But in their current state, 99.9% of all MLMs are not, and will not ever be sustainable models for the masses.

    Now the new Life compensation plan will exacerbate the situation because it has a mathematical failure rate of 91% or a ratio from the network of 1 in 11. They are instituting a “get 3 retail customers” and yours is free program, but whether a Life “distributor” can find 3 customers who will pay an even higher price on an already hyper-inflated system is yet to be seen. The difference between retail and distributor cost at the smallest package of $50 will cover the cost of the beginning package for most associates. I could be wrong, but I am going to assume that for this to work, the “retail” cost of their beginning package must be around $70 a month, otherwise there would not be enough profit to make this happen. Many companies are starting to do the “get 3 yours is free” program in order to give their models the appearance of viability, and I do believe it helps the overall program. Ironically, I believe, that if we all could actually see the percentages of those who are able to take advantage of these programs, it would be shockingly low. Even if one was able to take advantage of this program, and keep 3 customers purchasing at retail, that might put them, and keep them in the black, but to earn from the “network” still requires a huge percentage of failure. Furthermore, if someone is totally submersed in the Life “system”, the 3 and yours is free will void the probability of operating in the black. If an associate chooses to participate in more than the $50 basic package the ability to have a profitable business is greatly diminished. If they attend open meetings, bds meeting etc., then they will even have to earn more money from the network to cover their own expenses. I know that bds ticket sales will be commissionable, but anything that is commissionable from the network, will require a high percentage of failure, as they are making the plan top heavy, just as I suspected it would be.

  17. October 2, 2011 9:54 am

    @Just Asking – There was three monthly seminars held yesterday in Battle Creek, Ontario, and Sainte-Foy, so it appears that Orrin was talking about signups during those meetings. Now, he has shown to parse his words very carefully at times, so who knows if those 400 signups were previous TEAM members or new initiates?

    All said, let’s steer the conversation back towards the bankruptcy filings for these TEAM leaders. Here are some additional questions for comment:

    1. How could they hide this from their own teams and distributors?
    2. Were the Cullens, Darkangelos and Hubers praised for their financial knowledge by Orrin Woodward and company at the SAME TIME they were filing bankruptcy?
    3. Are they claiming themselves to be debt-free right now? If so, I doubt they’ll say because it’s because they filed for bankruptcy!
    4. How are these couples being recognized today within TEAM?
    5. How many downline distributors do these couples have?
  18. October 2, 2011 10:14 am

    Hi friends, I just finished reading up on your comments about the upcoming LIFE business model, and cannot help but ask… “OK, so LIFE/TEAM/Orrin/MonaVie/Amway/etc. sucks because “most” people cannot make more money than they spend on the business… but do YOU have a better idea?”

    And please note – your “better” idea MUST allow a breakeven earning ratio of 1:2 minimum. By this I mean, “Find 2 and you get yours FREE!” Not only that, it MUST give the participants a shot at stardom and freedom. Thirdly, it MUST give the participants a chance to become part of a “community” of like-minded, positive-thinking, hungry-for-a-better-life individuals. Last but not least, the participants MUST make more money right from the get-go – and significantly more money than they spend on whatever expenses they so need to incur in the course of building the business (your idea).

    With that said, I hope to hear some solid responses… as the saying goes, “It is always easier to criticise, than to offer a more creative solution.”

    p/s. Amthrax, my apologies… I have been away because we just had two watershed elections in Singapore and I was pretty involved as campaign manager. (election agent)

  19. October 2, 2011 11:22 am

    @Rykel – The purpose of this blog is to show how and why LIFE/TEAM/Orrin/MonaVie/Amway is a bad business opportunity — one that is not as good as advertised. There are plenty of sites on the Web that discuss business and investment opportunities that offer a better return than TEAM/LIFE/MonaVie. Start with LazyMan and look at his blogroll links on the right.

    Orrin Woodward himself categorized 2007-2010 as a time of trials and tribulations? What? I thought MonaVie was the opportunity to bring riches to TEAM’s membership? You yourself were one of the biggest proponents of the magical acai berry. What the heck has TEAM been doing for the past three years?

    Let’s come back to this post… how do you explain the bankruptcy filings of these TEAM leaders who have spent YEARS involved with Orrin Woodward, TEAM, Amway, Quixtar, and MonaVie?

  20. brent hansen permalink
    October 2, 2011 12:35 pm

    Rykel, in order to fully understand the compensation plan of any MLM opportunity we must be willing to analyze the entire plan from top to bottom, lets not only discuss a break even point, but how about allocation of compensation dollars? I can show several companies that provide a superior model to the LIFE plan. If that is what you really want to happen, I would be glad to speak with you in person or through email and provide you with the full equation.

    If you simply want to bout here for the sake of an argument, I am not interested in wasting my time trying to preach to a converted choir. If you are looking for solutions better than team, there are quite a few.

    As for the 3 and its free program, when you have your 3 “retail” customers, let me know and then we will discuss the validity of this program.

  21. MadScientistMatt permalink
    October 2, 2011 2:23 pm

    Rykel: There isn’t a one size fits all solution here. If you want a shot at stardom, I’d say that rules out all MLMs. After all, if you asked the average person on the street, “Who is Orrin Woodward?” anyone not in MonaVie or TEAM is going to say, “Orrin who?” About the only stars in the public eye at a national level are the top levels of (1) someone who’s the top dog at a major company, (2) politicians, (3) athletes, (4) actors and other Hollywood types, (5) musicians, and (6) writers. None of these are fields where just anybody can succeed – they each require considerable talent. What you would need to do is figure out where your own unique talents are, and sharpen them until you’re the best. There’s no stardom in a can out there waiting for you to open it. It’s a formula you have to brew yourself.

  22. No Team For Me permalink
    October 2, 2011 6:33 pm

    Rykel,
    I’ve noticed you’ve come to Orrin’s defense on many occassions on this blog and others. A few questions for you…

    How long have you been coached by or a part of Orrin’s system?

    How much net money after tool expenses have you made?

    What level are you at?

    How many people do you have on your team?

    How many people do you have in your group who are making money?

    Do you consistently hit that level?

    Surely, if you believe in Orrin so much, you will be willing to answer these questions. Looking forward to your answers.

  23. rickdg permalink
    October 2, 2011 8:27 pm

    Rykel – Do you think it is weird that these people preaching for a better way, telling people that they are well-off, and financially responsible, when they are really leaving off credit cards and eventually filling for BK? This is ultimate hypocrisy. These are high-level, probably in the top 1 percent, all they are doing is proving that this charade is not working. When I see these facts, (these BK’s) I have to think that it wont be long – when distributors can finally admit that they have been fooled into a big dream. A dream that will take at least 2, maybe up to 5 years to fruition. A dream that will give the distributor a shot at stardom and freedom. A dream of making more money, and buying fancy cars and things.
    Those people that went bankrupt – if they are still a part of Team – besides being hypocritical, it should constitute fraud. They are saying it works!!! When it really didn’t work??? Talk about being hooked. It’s like they are brainwashed or something.

    The one thing you can count on is how they use the self-loathing qualities of the distributor against him. Like if you are not succeeding then it obviously your lack of effort. Ugly! The whole concept is simply an ugly tactic. In fact it is plain Evil! They also prey on people that cannot afford to be involved by promising them they can retain this dream.
    Rykel – is your dream coming – or are you getting ready to file bankruptcy?
    So – you are saying Team-Life is the best thing going – like it is a good idea?
    Why should we believe you when we have seen so many lies? is Team in Singapore? Your answer to that might be hard to believe too.

    Good luck trying to say that Team is a good idea around here.

  24. ZedZuber permalink
    October 3, 2011 12:58 am

    Can someone explain LIFE simply to me? A friend ambushed me the other day trying to get me to join. She seems excited but hasn’t told me what I have to do…. Sign up and then what? They Made it sound like I could just chill and still get credit. I asked point blank ” if I don’t sell anything will I still get the bucks for people signing up after me?”. They said yes. and why do I have to buy stuff? are they just making money off of each other by buying their own product? I’m so confused. It can’t be as simple as they’re trying to make me think it is….

  25. aurora permalink
    October 3, 2011 4:33 am

    This commenter requested that her comments be removed from this site.

  26. webelieved permalink
    October 3, 2011 10:34 am

    Zed- If you don’t sell anything and only buy and don’t do anything that sounds like a internal consumption pyramid scheme to me. It cannot be explained easily, because they want you to listen to a cd or meet with upline so that you will become confused and then can be indoctrinated with their system. It really is a thought reform program designed to take away your ability to critically think and become dependent on them in every area of your life, so you keep spending your money and make the top rich, and they will have you believe something is wrong with you . Maybe you could become rich but then you have to hurt many others to do that. Are you willing? Not me……..that is why I am on this site.
    Get some good books from the library for free, and find a good community at a church. You will be paying for LIFE to tell information you can have for free. Keep your free thinking. Take it from some one who has been there done that, and made money and still will never go back. They can steal this so called “leadership business” after you have done the “work”. And you will almost give up everything in your life to do it.
    It can not be explained easily because if they tell you the whole truth up front…… on the expenses, the bogus contracts, the time commitment, and the many that have never made it and the money many have spent with no results, the love bombing they are using on you to get you in, how they have stolen their own leader’s money, how they will teach you to never ask questions,decieve your family and friends and give them the run around with your non answers…..how your involvement will damage many relationships, and how you will be asked to sacrifice your integrity and mind, for some promise of profit that truthfully the majority never make, how they came from Amway, sued Amway for being an illegal pyramid scheme after they promoted for years it was the best business, then lost their lawsuit, then went to Monavie and failed and because they couldn’t make it in Monavie, now are on to life….. you anyone with a brain, would run.
    Deception is how destructive groups work. Please do yourself a favor and read up on the bite model at cult expert Steve Hasan website. freedom of mind a link on the right.
    You and your friends are being misled and decieved with only part of the “truth”. You need to be informed to make an informed decision, not a decision based on emotion. I am sure they are talking a lot to you about your dreams, they are well versed in how to manipulate people to get them to take the next step and are taught not to tell you everything/ up front. There is something wrong with that.

    These of course are all my opinions and/or experiences with Orrin Woodward and/or Team/ LIFe. Good luck. Let us know how it goes.

  27. webelieved permalink
    October 3, 2011 10:41 am

    Zed also I would highly reccommend you read Amthrax’s site, many of the commenters on here have worked in the Team office or know and worked directly with LIFE leaders and were considered very successful in the business, taught others how to build the buisness, and many spoke on stage and were on cd’s. They are here to share the other side of the story. Purely so you and others will not have your lives negatively impacted and can make an informed decision on your involvement with Team/LIFE/ Orrin Woodward and Company.

  28. I QUIT (and glad I did) permalink
    October 4, 2011 4:58 am

    I’ve reserved comment for quite some time but must throw in at this point. Rykel has used one of the basic Team tricks. Answer a question with a question. I used this technique many times to de-rail a line of conversation or re-direct it during my biz days. It also points to an adolescent concept of “I know you are but what am I?” Come on Ryk. Whats the matter? Can’t take the heat? The truth hurts don’t it? Every time someone nails a Team issue to the wall with irrefutable evidence, some yahoo shows up from the pro-Team camp to deflect the focus just to the side a little bit. The issue or the burden does not lie with us the anti’s… it is with you the brainwashed. We have given evidence that supports our claims, now answer them directly, don’t try to go a different direction. We don’t need to offer the better option. You need to show why your option obviously doesn’t work long term.

  29. webelieved permalink
    October 4, 2011 8:26 am

    I Quit- “Answer a question with a question. I used this technique many times to de-rail a line of conversation or re-direct it during my biz days.” Great Point! You are right another manipulation tactic we were taught through modeling our upline’s behavior! Ifeel bad for people that do not know this is being used on them! (cults use modeling too)
    Healthy people in the real world expect honest and direct answers to their questions, not the run around. It seems teamers cannot do that.
    It is funny when they try to use it here and eventually they connot answer our questions, they quit and “go home”. Maybe we should go to a yes/no multiple choice questions? Then there could be no derailing and no confusion? LOL!
    Good to see you back Quit!

  30. Free to live life again! permalink
    October 4, 2011 10:58 am

    There are at least 4 more bankruptcies that I know of, not including the 3 mentioned in this post, all of which have left TEAM. Then you have to think of all the “little people” who may have gone bankrupt by wasting their money on TEAM – if not bankrupt, then financial stress/credit card usage, as we went through when we were in.

  31. Emily permalink
    October 4, 2011 11:39 am

    I had a great time in team. I made a lot of friends and learned about myself. When it got to the point where I could not afford to stay on system i left. What went with me was all the knowledge I had gained. It has helped me through other tying circumstances in my life. Do I regret joining team? No not at all. It was the thing I needed at that stage in my life. Would I go back? No, well maybe if they had normal products that could really beat the price of walmart!! Just kidding 🙂

  32. October 4, 2011 12:16 pm

    Troy, you wanted facts, right? How is this article for facts? Maybe you should ask Orrin how he is going to spin this one? I should warn you though, he is very convincing with his SPIN.

  33. October 4, 2011 12:29 pm

    Free to live life again – Who are the other four that filed for bankruptcy?

  34. Speak Your Truth permalink
    October 4, 2011 1:15 pm

    Brent ~

    Excellent Post and one of the best descriptions of how the team works to get others to believe…wrongly about themselves!

    “The foundational belief behind their systems are that a human being in his current emotional, intellectual, and entire state of being is “not good” enough to succeed. The very premise of their entire system would have us all believe that God did not give us all the ability, and capability to rise above, succeed, or conquer. The philosophy they would have us believe is that we are not equipped with enough character, integrity, work ethic, leadership skills etc., to build a business to the point of achieving success as we would define it, thus the need for a “system”. We have all heard that when we “think”, “act”, or “believe”, like a diamond, then we will be a diamond. Nothing could be further from the truth than this idea. They would have us believe that the only way we could ever possibly succeed is to CHANGE WHO WE ARE, AND WHAT WE BELIEVE, THIS IS A LIE!”

  35. Speak Your Truth permalink
    October 4, 2011 1:36 pm

    The man with the facts is never at the mercy of the man with the opinion. 🙂

    ZedZuber~

    Don’t have a lot of time put simply, The Team/ lief is money changing hands from the bottom distributors, customers, team mates (whatever they call them now, to cover themselves) the TOP makes all the money convincing the bottom to give up theirs… while at least 90-99% (we will see from those who study the newest comp plan) lose. They rake in millions off the ‘system’.. which consist of … bi-weekly..(used to be weekly)…Cd’s, Books, Seminars, Majors,Websites, Webinars, Booking Rooms, Speaking, etc to the tune of 42 million in one year (forbes article) and I have seen quoted; of over 150 million dollars per year! This is 150 MILLION….If that is accurate…they should be ashamed of themselves at what they paid their leaders for devoting their entire lives so THEY could brag about how much THEY make!

    That is some cold hard cash,….that those 15,ooo they brag about are emptying their bank accounts for a hopeless, false dream of becoming financial independant and at least 90% Never will they will only be left with loses…and you could count on 2 hands the amount of people who are making the kind of money they brag about and probably fewer than that!

  36. Speak Your Truth permalink
    October 4, 2011 3:16 pm

    Emily~

    Well it isn’t for everyone… 🙂

  37. webelieved permalink
    October 4, 2011 5:38 pm

    Just Asking- I have been told they were signing up previous/already in Team distributors into LIFE this past week. Looks like promotions might be over exageration once again. Reminds me of Best Sellers made from getting distributors to buy tons of books to get them there. Over hype, and half truths.

  38. No Team For Me permalink
    October 4, 2011 9:19 pm

    Still waiting for Rykel to answer the questions about what level he is at and how much money he is making.

    I have a friend in another group who has a Rykel in his binary downline from Orrin who has some downline that have hit the Gold level a few times. But from what I hear week after week after week after week, the volume for the 2nd leg of these Golds was zero. ZERO!!!!

    Is this our Rykel? Is this the success you achieved from Orrin? I don’t know, but it seems to me there is a high probability. If so, how much money did you spend (waste) on tools? Because with zero volume in a 2nd leg, there is zero profit. Which would mean a HUGE loss if someone was fully on system and buying all the extra tools.

    Is this you Rykel??? If so, and I really don’t know for sure, but if so – how could you possibly defend Orrin on these blogs?

  39. Speak Your Truth permalink
    October 4, 2011 11:25 pm

    No team for Me~ LOL…Gotta love the “Not only that, it MUST give the participants a shot at stardom and freedom.”~ Rykle

    ‘Stardom & Freedom’….LOHL Get a babysitting job Rykle….you can have both and more money…lol

    MadScientistMatt cover it nicely. 🙂

  40. Speak Your Truth permalink
    October 5, 2011 10:04 am

    Un-freaking believable! A top 30 leadership guru…REALLY? Where is the ‘facts about Scott Larsen going bankrupt?’ I didn’t find them on Qrush blog.

    Orrin=Qrush comments;

    “Let’s face it Scott, your dirty little secret is out. Scott Larsen is busted and going bankrupt!”

    “Guess again Scott Larsen. More than just Scott Larsen has read Weinstein, wise guy. 🙂 The facts are pretty clear. Scott Larsen goes from bragging to his former upline about his alleged financial independence and outside consulting work to dragging himself back into work. Let me guess Scott, you aren’t working because you need the money, but only because you are bored and needed something to do? (Can you feel the sarcasm?) Let’s review Scott’s own words in a caustic letter he sent to his former upline in 1999, since Scott is big on supporting documentation.”

    “Scott, are you still doing your own thing over in Germany or wherever else in Europe Bosch sends their associate engineers? Why would doing your own thing involve going back to work unless you started reading your own press clippings and lost your investment money? Let’s face it Scott, your dirty little secret is out. Scott Larsen is busted and going bankrupt! He writes negative about Quixtar because he can’t stand anyone else to be happy and financially free when he has to crawl into his cubicle every morning addicted to his paycheck.”

    “Wow Scott, you learned how to trade online. You and millions more thought you could read a couple of books and strike it rich in online trading. Qrush finds it laughable that you don’t post about your failures in the stock market. Qrush would love for you to use some of your megabyte capacity on your website to describe how you learned how the market acts. Qrush would be interested in investing some money in your foolproof plan. (More sarcasm) Face it Scott Larsen, your huge ego got you into trouble yet again. Scott’s statement that he learned how the market acts is as stupid as Neville Chamberlain saying “Peace in our Time.” Investing all that money into tech stocks and watching it evaporate must have killed you Scott. Qrush personally finds it enjoyable to know that the quintessential critic was burned following his own advice. Scott, have you ever considered finding a mentor? Perhaps he could salvage the wreck of a life you have created.”

  41. No Team For Me permalink
    October 5, 2011 10:22 am

    Great research Speak – and this from these supposed people of integrity and character who vilify us for speaking the facts? Is this the language of a leader? Seems like quite the double standard.

  42. Speak Your Truth permalink
    October 5, 2011 2:41 pm

    No Team For Me~

    How telling what kind of person Orrin= Qrush really is, just as all of us already knew.

  43. Bunny Rabbit ears permalink
    October 6, 2011 12:35 am

    I’ll bet you are only one person, writing to entertain me. Please continue…

  44. Outcast permalink
    October 6, 2011 11:14 am

    How do you find these bankrupticy files online? I have people I would love to show this too, but if they see the amthrax woodpress link they will just say that you fabricated them. lol Like you have nothing better to do.

    Also, how are they signing people up for something that doesn’t even exsist yet? That has to be even more illegal than everything else they are already doing. I wouldn’t doubt that they just signed up a bunch of their own TEAM members last night and said it was 400 people signed up for LIFE.

    I see a weekly growth(by one or two people) going into my Mona Vie tree, however I would say close to half those people always go inactive in a month. And none of them have started their second legs.

    How is Orrin not going to get into trouble with Mona Vie for taking people away from mona vie for his own MLM? We have had a lot of pressure from people in our upline telling us we can afford it now because we don’t have to do mona vie at all, just LIFE. I’d rather not pay liars and cheats to tell me how to have a better life.

  45. Speak Your Truth permalink
    October 6, 2011 12:30 pm

    Outcast~

    In Amthrax’s article there are links to the bankruptcy documents..you could copy and paste them in word or an email, then send it those you want to inform. Those are the facts and you know what they say: A man with the facts is never at the mercy of the man with an opinion.

    It amazes me that someone wouldn’t come here to seek those facts, what are they affraid of? Hmm…it would shatter those ‘rose colored glasses’ and create doubt…something L. Ron Hubbard the kook from Scientology went to great lengths to control others and it is what makes people begin to critically think on their own…. Oh and ironically the Team believes the same and quite frankly they also go to great lenghts to try and control this. Do they think the site will give them kooties…lol.. NO..it is because they Want and Need, to remain in Denial that’s because they are not willing to do the right thing or face the facts.

    They spend much time trying to keep people blinded. That certainly isn’t seeking the truth, leading people to the truth; but they must eventually face that reality.

    Great question: “How are they signing people up for something that doesn’t even exsist yet?” The answer; is the same way as they always have and will until the goverment or some agengy starts to take control and does it for them…they have NO ONE policing them…

    There is one thing you can be certain about, and that is they will never give all the facts nor disclose all the information about anything, they hype everything..why?…because they wouldn’t have a chance at deceiving others..people would see it for what it is if they disclosed the full story and whole truth.

    If I were to make an educated guess based on our experience..Orrin has figured out a way to get the ‘blessings’ (manipulated) Dallin..but I am not niave enough to think Dallin won’t be getting something in return. Probably another back door deal no one will ever know about. I can hardly believe Dallin hasn’t looked at the recent rapid decline of autoships…after all that is their Bottom Line! The company has to be watching their bottom line..NO?

    I am curious though; if Dallin hears a whole different story and wonder if he knows that they are flat out telling people NOT to buy.. the ‘juice’.

  46. October 6, 2011 1:17 pm

    @Outcast – Get a Pacer account and do a search for the bankruptcy documents using the information in the PDFs. You’ll be able to find the docket number and request the documents yourself, directly from the U.S. Government for a nominal fee.

  47. Speak Your Truth permalink
    October 6, 2011 3:08 pm

    Bunny Rabbit~

    Which part is entertaining there bunny rabbit.. Amthrax’s article and facts on the bankruptcies, the conversations or the comments from Orrin err Qrush? If it is Orrin=QRUSH their is another article Amthrax wrote on that you could entertain yourself with or perhaps you could go read the Qrush blog yourself and be filled with Orrin’s malicious hypocritical entertainment. Pretty interesting what some are entertained with.

  48. webelieved permalink
    October 6, 2011 8:07 pm

    Bunny Rabbit- Nice try…….didn’t work. You wish there was only one person here. 🙂

  49. das permalink
    October 7, 2011 1:19 pm

    Joe posted his retirement day video on you tube a year after filing. Pretty incredible, Dream, Struggle, Victory, Struggle.

  50. Used to be "all-in" permalink
    October 7, 2011 2:26 pm

    Hard to believe he posted this video 10 months ago according to youtube. Filed for bankruptcy on September 16, 2009, still wanted others to believe he was “living the dream” a year later.

    Kind of interesting that Chuck Cullin was the one manning the video camera.

  51. John permalink
    October 7, 2011 2:55 pm

    The hypocrisy of this is shocking. How can the leaders continue to look themselves in the mirror and not feel ashamed for all the deception, lies, and misrepresentation that they continue to promote? The Team is nortorious for this kind of fake promotion. To see Tim Marks and his wife there as a part of this lie and deception makes me question the integrity of the man that Orrin calls the moral compass of the Team. Quite frankly the Team is built on lies and deception and is a ship driftilng without any moral compass at all. The leaders all know that what they are doing is fake. They try to sleep at night by saying they are making a difference. They only difference they are making is in their own make believe world of let’s pretend we are great leaders. Let’s pretend we are successful. Let’s pretend we are important. This video reminds me that this whole scam is just one incredible lie.

  52. rickdg permalink
    October 7, 2011 9:03 pm

    Ugly! and Evil! oh and, Stardom!

  53. October 8, 2011 12:28 am

    The video was from 2005 when he “retired” due to his Amway business.

  54. Emily permalink
    October 8, 2011 12:32 pm

    I have read though a lot of these blogs on the websites. Your stories are really sad and believable because I have a friend who shares a similar experience. His story is not mine to tell but when I shared your stores with him your stories it was a great relief for him that he was not alone in the struggle and deception of team.

  55. Speak Your Truth permalink
    October 8, 2011 2:43 pm

    Emily~

    Your friend is welcome to come share his story too..it may help him to know he isn’t alone.

  56. team deception permalink
    October 9, 2011 6:04 am

    For not paying attention to this blog this is the second time that Orrin has responded to it. Check out his blog from yesterday where he lays out the history of team and how many of the leaders have gone through financial struggle. He downplays it like everyone does it and fails to mention that none of the team leaders are making any money 5 years later.

    In what other “business” could a leader say the same thing over and over, get the same results and still have people believe?

    Orrin, since we all know that you are a frequent visitor to the amthrax web site please read this. Your day of scamming and hurting vulnerable people are almost over. The days of your narcissistic unchristian behavior influencing others for your own personal gain are coming to an end. What are Tim Marks, Mark Huber, and Jim Martin going to think when they find out what you say about them behind their backs? It’s all going to catch up to you and when it does………

  57. Emily permalink
    October 9, 2011 6:51 am

    He said this may be a God send because he has been wanting to vent his story to someone who will listen and understand the emotional trama he and his wife expereinced.

  58. Speak Your Truth permalink
    October 9, 2011 7:36 am

    Emily~

    You are right it is a God send and if it wasn’t for Amthrax providing this forum; for those who needed to come together to share the truth and ‘vent’ and provide a place where others who ‘just know something isn’t right’ could verify their gut instinct…then who knows where we would all be. This is the place to be.. to get the rest of the story… and I am sure he needs someone to listen. 🙂

    team deception~

    There is a disscussion under “O W on Life” on his recent ‘history of the team’ post ..his wonderful and carefully selected words version of course..

  59. Emily permalink
    October 9, 2011 10:39 am

    @ speak I was with team for about a year. As I posted earlier I did have fun. I guess I want to clarlfy what I meant by these statments. I did not let them brainwash me into their way of thinking. When it was suggested that I not hang around my other friends because they will not help me achieve my dreams that is where I put my foot down, I was very clear that my friends have been with me through thick and thin. They have seen the best of me as well as the worst. They speak truth and life to me and they were not going anywhere. When it was suggested that I read a certain book I would either borrow it or go to barns and noble.com and get it used for a dollar or two plus shipping and handling. I took great joy in telling my rt upline that I purchased the top fifty off of ebay for a fraction of the cost. To say the least he was not to pleased. So I guess i can say i had fun becuase it fed the sanguine part of my personality being around the team. At the time i was also a teacher in a small private christian school and had my summers off. I took one summer and read any type of leadership book that i could get my hand on. It was what I needed because I was at a big burn out point in my job. The teachings that I recieved helped me through the next school year. I was able to take the leadership role and put together our annuel action it is the biggest fund rasier event for our school. If it had not been for the team teaching and books that I had read I would not have had the confidence to pull of the auction. I would have thought well there is someone else who can do it better than me. The teachings from team helped me realize some hidden giftings that I possed. I will say that my bigggest supporters while I was putting the auction together were those friends that I was adviced to give up. They all bought tickets and attended the event becuase they were proud of my accomplishment. I left team shortly after they swtched to MV for the following reasons. i could not tell a diffence when i drank the juice. So if I did not like it how could I promote it to others? I could not in good conscience convice people to go on the training system, purchase cses of MV when a lot of people in my life where worried about providing basic needs for there family. I did not buy into the idea that a forty dollar bottle of juice will be the answer to your problems. I also felt a little lied to because I let myself become convinced that Team was going in the direction of having common household items for less that is what i took wal-mart of the internet to mean. That would be something I could promote because it would be saving people money in this downed ecomony. So to sum it up in the end I became a stroger person, discovered hidden giftings about myself and worked through a few of my insecurites. The flip side is i did not have a peace about it and could not go against my gut feeling. After I left the team that I was apart of fell apart. The so called great leaders lost their rank as RT. They are still onTeam and working hard to retain the RT status. My big wig upline was on PC and well I am not sure what happened but he is still on Team but is no longer on PC. After watching it fall apart here and reading all of your stories i am so thankful that i was able to discern the voice of God telling me that this business is not for me. This was just a stepping stone to where I am leading you in life.

  60. Speak Your Truth permalink
    October 9, 2011 10:54 am

    Great recap of your story Emily…thanks for sharing.

  61. a wounded bear permalink
    October 10, 2011 11:36 am

    I’m going to share my story from the end, backward to the beginning…that way more recent memories will bring to light older ones. We are friends with Emily a nice down to earth gal…one evening at a Tuesday night open we were seen visting, afterward our rt couple came over to us and said “you can’t vist with Emily because she is up and cross line to you. BS! We have been out for 3 years…still paying off some debt…should have followed the leaders and declared bankruptcy that seems to be the TEAM way. But it never crossed my mind.
    After we quit…i love saying that word it’s such a taboo word on TEAM. I had called our rt couple, a few times just out of friendliness…no such thing on his end. C.M. asked me if I was coming back…i should have said maybe, instead I said NO. That did it, within the next 30 days all my producers on my second leg…you know where the money is…had other ids in the form of LLCs and were on the taproot. Oh I was hot! How dare they do that. We drove our tail off building that team in ohio. But that was one of the most dishonest things they could have done, because you and I have heard ORRIN & CHRIS among others from stage teach that in this business you can build a residual income. And later on if you would ever decide to go do something else, there would be that income that you had labored for.

  62. Emily permalink
    October 10, 2011 12:18 pm

    Thanks I hope it encourages you that the information presented by the TEAM did help people get to know themselves better and push them out of their comfort zone to try new things.

  63. webelieved permalink
    October 10, 2011 1:10 pm

    Emily- thanks for sharing! The closer you get to the top the worse it gets. The ones that stay and actually did get rid of their friends and did what they were taught, become more and more dependent, less and less confident and will be abused and manipulated by the Team Machine. They higher up you go the more forced conformity, even if it is unethical and against your morals. Leaders learn very well how to manipulate relationships on Team.
    You would have never made it buying books from b and n. LOL! Leaders could never edify you if you were doing that, because it didn’t line their pockets! I am glad you kept your critical thinking and your friends! By they way, Orrin and co. can steal what they call “your business” whenever they like, that has been proven here over and over!
    Glad you didn’t waste your time building it and glad your free ! Don’t you just love the library and amazon! 🙂

  64. Speak Your Truth permalink
    October 10, 2011 1:17 pm

    Help ‘people’? I must have missed something, I thought you left for reasons you didn’t feel were helping you. Well anyway, glad you feel the books helped you and you already stated you know where you could buy them at a fraction of the cost or the library for free.

    And also if you would be so kind…Tell your friend we know exactly how he feels, he isn’t alone and there is life after that experience, it is obvious from your comments it hurt him. Good luck with your teaching and Thanks.

  65. Emily permalink
    October 10, 2011 2:35 pm

    He sent me a text message a few hours ago saying that he posted his story and is just waiting for it to be moderated. You guys should be getting it shortly. You are correct he did get hurt and wants to heal from it all. Leave it in the past and look towards a brighter future.

  66. October 10, 2011 4:18 pm

    @Emily and all – I posted A Wounded Bear’s comment. It’s a little up from this comment, or you can click here to view it.

  67. webelieved permalink
    October 10, 2011 4:58 pm

    Wounded Bear-……

    “That did it, within the next 30 days all my producers on my second leg…you know where the money is…had other ids in the form of LLCs and were on the taproot. Oh I was hot! How dare they do that……………… I have heard ORRIN & CHRIS among others from stage teach that in this business you can build a residual income. And later on if you would ever decide to go do something else, there would be that income that you had labored for.”

    WOW WHAT CROOKS THEY ARE, people already registered in Monavie then changed to another team using LLc’s!? So in other words they stole your second leg! The way you get paid? If people cannot see these guys are crooks, they are blind! And they call themselves Christians?

    Just curious, how you know who owns the LLC? Did you tell Monavie and did they do anything? They claim they do not allow people to have 2 numbers. I hope you kept documentation.

    We were RT’s and PC solicited/stole our profit sharing legs and gave them to others without so much as a phone call. To people who were already being paid on it! People who didn’t even build it! Previously, when we could no longer take the hypocrisy and lies and I was deathly sick, we had to stop attending functions. Not a phone call from upline, nothing.There are a lot of stories under EX-team comments about many people’s experiences and a lot of the b.s. they pulled spelled out under post QUESTIONS FOR ORRIN AND CHRIS.

    I welcome you here and am glad you have come to tell your story. It has been a very painful road of broken friendships, slanderous lies told about us etc. But I will say I am glad to be free of the thought reform! I have been studying cults and it appears Team/ LIFE’s damaging behavior towards it’s leaders fits the definition to a tee! You can learn more how cults work at the FREEDOM OF MIND BITE MODEL on the right under critics. Just my opinion of course 🙂

    I hope you find some healing here. It is very hard to see it ALL was a lie!

    [Editor’s Note: Added blockquote and returns for readability]

  68. das permalink
    October 10, 2011 5:38 pm

    Welcome Wounded Bear. Your same story has been told many times on this site. I think you will find some healing here by reading the other leader’s stories of how their teams were stolen after working hard for years for that risidual, passive, willable income. Thanks for sharing your story, you are not alone.

  69. a wounded bear permalink
    October 10, 2011 6:04 pm

    @webelieved…wow…yes I did contact MV, in that dept you could no longer talk to via phone only email. So I emailed them. Never heard from them. As to how I know their LLCs I worked closely with these people. I got to know what turned them on what their heart went after…i’ll give you an example M.S loved to hunt deer, you should have seen his trophies…guess what his LLC is…BIG BUCKS LLC. He had woven two meanings into it, how clever, and so on and so forth.
    We were platinums in qstar/amway and gold in MV and turbo 50 well on our way to T100.
    That being said we enrolled hundreds of people..still have all that docs.

  70. a wounded bear permalink
    October 10, 2011 6:17 pm

    @das…i see that, but gotta share it for the first time publicly. Lol question …what will a wounded bear do? Fight to the death! I like what Dr Laura said “Don’t raise your voice, just reinforce your argument.” Some way some how what I write it’s going to get back to Chris and Terrie and I hope that they will take it to heart and it convicts them to the core of their soul.

  71. Speak Your Truth permalink
    October 10, 2011 7:03 pm

    a wounded bear~

    We certainly know just how you feel and know you aren’t alone as others have said…the betrayal is unbelievable and downright theft of people’s business is unspeakable. Sounds like some of the same destruction happened in your team as a lot of ours. Let me guess it was during the registration into MV..and as you said… MV didn’t do ANTHING…sounds waaayyy to familiar.

    It would be sweet to turn back time and NEVER have gotten started but as we know that is impossible and we wouldn’t want to do that because we have some great ‘true’ friends that we care deeply for and have spent years with and I wouldn’t trade them for nothing. But the pain and suffering it caused….needless to say it is tragic. Wouldn’t want to take away our ‘learning’ experiences either (teaching moments…lol) of who NEVER to trust and NOT to follow.

    Welcome to the site and hope let your healing begin. 🙂

  72. Vogel permalink
    October 10, 2011 7:15 pm

    “Some way some how what I write it’s going to get back to Chris and Terrie and I hope that they will take it to heart and it convicts them to the core of their soul.”

    I hope so too wounded Bear, but from what I’ve seen, the souls of people like this are too calloused to be reached. I fear that the only way they can be shaken into contrition is if they are sitting in the defendant’s box in court.

  73. brent hansen permalink
    October 10, 2011 7:27 pm

    Par for the course, sorry this happened to you wounded bear but this is the stuff binaries are famous for. Its all about position and timing on enrollment, then the movement of teams to keep the chosen ones in profit. MV has literally placed entire countries under the “chosen ones” to keep them from walking. Its called a break insert and is common place in binaries. Just read the offer given to Michael Collins by one of the “chosen ones” under the binary discussion thread here on Amthrax. And for your entertainment pleasures read this thread and see how Michael is calling people out on this kind of crap.

    http://www.businessforhome.org/2011/10/visalus-versus-vemma-uni-level-versus-binary-comp-plan/

    [Editor’s note: fixed grammatical error]

  74. No Team For Me permalink
    October 10, 2011 8:33 pm

    Wounded Bear – same thing happened to me. People from my lesser leg went inactive, then I noticed those same people were later re-registered under someone else’s PEAR in my tap binary. These were people I had spent hundreds of hours and thousands of dollars helping.

    But in my case, they were so bold as to use their real names. I can clearly see the names of people who were Bronze and their downline who were orginally in my lesser leg, now in the taproot.

    I cannot believe the hypocrisy of these people who stand on stage and claim to have integrity. what they mean is ‘selective situational integrity’.

    And I have heard from numerous people that the word off stage is to tell people ‘no need to register in MonaVie, just build Life and buy their products’. Imagine if Dallin new the real Orrin. I think Dallin is truly fooled the way a bunch of us were.

    Only Dallin got screwed way worse than us considering all the legal fees he arranged to have paid for Orrin.

  75. webelieved permalink
    October 10, 2011 8:52 pm

    No team for me- I was wondering if Chris B was your PC? seems to be a pattern here. I am so discutsted I cannot even believe they do this crap. I know they are using “oh you have no help” b.s. which is total b.s. I have watched lots of big leaders not build their tap root, just suck off it and build their lesser legs so it is just bullshit, rhetoric, justification. Your upline can mentor you just the same. These guys are CRIMINALS and they need to go to JAIL!
    Dallin is a FOOL if he believes anything Orrin says. I guess things always come back to bite you hey?

  76. No Team For Me permalink
    October 10, 2011 9:06 pm

    Webelieved – I agree, these guys are criminals. Something has got to be done. I have heard of at least one RT under Chris Brady who, as I was told directly by someone who was solicited to quit the MV crossline group he was in and re-register as a personal of this RT. So much for integrity. How would they have felt if someone did that to a group that had built?

    Fortunately, the person who the attempt was made on told the RT what to do with it 🙂

    These guys are unbelieveable! They will stop at nothing, all the while claiming from stage to have so much integrity. I’ve always been careful around people like that – those who truly have integrity don’t have to constantly tell you how much integrity they have.

  77. Speak Your Truth permalink
    October 10, 2011 9:08 pm

    I am seeing this also. They are DESPERATE and where is the HONOR and ETHICS in this? And apparently very common according to Brent’s frank comments. At least the word is getting out of the truth of this entire idustry is nothing but a farce. Orrin has said for years and is still saying it is a performanced based….that couldn’t be futher from the truth!

    Many, many people inside the industry are talking about this….the top guys continue to be given teams..’special deals’.. while they expect the bottom ones to continue to work like slaves and burn through their family and friends like they are a number…telling them alls they have to do is do what the TOP (dirtbags) guys do and they WILL have what the TOP guys have…the industry is revolting. Unbelievable people accept this just as;… it is the way they do business! I am more discusted now than I have ever been…Ethics, character, honesty, integrity, honor,..it’s all bullsh*t!

  78. Speak Your Truth permalink
    October 10, 2011 9:15 pm

    Webelieved and NTFM~

    Criminals amongst many other things….. I am beginning to think there isn’t a word in the English language that even comes close to describing such revolting and unethical people….and someday they will pay the price. And believe me it will THEE greatest celebration of all time in my book! 🙂

  79. a wounded bear permalink
    October 11, 2011 12:11 pm

    Speak your truth…the difference for us was we were one of the teams that were built going into MV. I never thought about it, till I read what you said. We mentored with D & S S. We were their second biggest team…c.m. being the largest. What d.s. did was take some people out of the taproot & some out of his smaller teams and put them in my taproot & my second leg. Hey I was thankful…lol…we were instant Golds…although at the same time I do know why this happen this way we started at the same income level we were at in Qxtar…well lets see in Qxstar $1800 & team $3500 a month, in MV $850 a week & team fell off to like $2000.
    Remember when they came out with the team success magazine? They impliedthat all success magazines had the team inserts in them and they would be able to reach people at the news stands. Not so…it took about 3 months for me to figure that out…that was one of the things that helped break the camels back.

  80. Speak Your Truth permalink
    October 11, 2011 1:20 pm

    Wounded bear~

    Oh Yes…how could we forget…they had now become famous…lol.. because of that success magazine..what a deceptive farce they PAID to have that insert out of the PROFIT SHARING…when they should have been PAYING the worker bee’s..we all worked like slaves so they could spend our profit-sharing money on some ‘fake’ image! That was some smart financial moves..but you know…Orrin is a guru…LHOL
    It was one poor stupid decision after another…they DIDN’t have a flippin clue how to build MV…but God forbid if you took their teachings and listened to someone who DID..you were suppose to PAY for the majors and seminars to listen to them BS because they had NO CLUE..and then one lie started building to the next lie..

    I find it really interesting that you said you were making $2000 from team in/MV and you were previously paid $3500 per month from team in/Q/A, and you were a between turbo 50 and turbo 100? Did your numbers drop when your income did with the Team? Am I understanding you right? Can you remember around what months and year that was…just curious..

    We had our 2nd (profit-sharing leg in Team) stolen..guess who got it… the PC who was already getting paid for it and been collecting off the efforts for years..but NOW they would have been able to count that in another leg and probably were they needed it…. poor souls…must have desperately need a raise to keep afloat…never mind that they just completely stripped the income from those who built it….but then that was the plan…seemed to work like a charm…UNTIL…. it comes back around…and in hindsight it has just begun….

    Prior to that there was a whole slew of strategic.. vendictive events…just like someone determined to destroy everything you have to get what they want and eliminate those they feared the most.. with their lies, backstabbing and slander.

    Thats ok…we weren’t willing to justify or do what they wanted, sell our friends out, or treat people like animals… or sell our souls….which was the reason… for all their strategic events…they thought they were really clever..it was to eliminate and turn the leaders on each other so they could try a ‘keep’ as many as possible.. because they were afraid of others influence…that’s some good sound ‘leadership’.. hey…..yea if you were in the mafia and didn’t care about your soul.

    It truly has been an amazing and unbelievable journey..but we are glad to be truly FREE now.. someday I am sure some books will be written… but for now we are so thankful to Amthrax who has provided this forum for us all! Thanks for joining us. 🙂

    P.S.~ I am pretty sure I figured out who your upline was…lol..it doesn’t matter they are all the same.. literally…because the ‘system’ creates a bunch of little orrin’s…as someone else stated they sell ‘themselves’… but I would say they really sell little orrin’s cult personallity…and they all follow blindly…even the yes men.

  81. a wounded bear permalink
    October 11, 2011 1:42 pm

    We were invited by d & s s. to go with them into the VIP room at one of the majors. Once there, We were told that the food was not for us. We were not introduced to anyone, Billy & Peggy, the Franks & some others were friendly to us. It was just a really strange time. I had already made my mind up that I did not want to end up like them…a big wig disconnected from my team.
    Did any of you have your mentors tell you to sell your lawn mowers and hire it done? Did we do it? Well of course…we trusted them. I should have kept on day trading thats how I bought my mower in the first place…you know maybe thats why they had me sell everything I had bought with the money I had made from stocks. A brain washing of sorts.
    But like some one said, we now have lasting friendships of people we would have never known.

  82. Speak Your Truth permalink
    October 11, 2011 1:57 pm

    Let me re-phrase that ‘treat people like animals’..don’t want to offend the animal lovers..I am one of them..

    I will say they treated people like TRASH…. but they did act like a rabid animal with their Dictating orders…not kidding…needless to say that doesn’t work for us..lol..it certainly wasn’t any impressive ‘leadership’ skill…lol.. and beyond any self control…nor was it… oh how much we ‘care’ about everyone…with the litte tear running down….nope out the window was everything….somehow they got amnesia… they had forgotten about all that…it is was about the MONEY…and…RANKING THEMSELVES, PERIOD…and a ‘few’ that they needed to rank…again for themselves!

    There was some confrintation and it wasn’t pretty…. but for us…that was THEE END at least for any relationship with any of them….. and glad it was!

  83. Speak Your Truth permalink
    October 11, 2011 2:06 pm

    Wounded bear~

    Sorry to hear about your lawn mower…chalk another up to their guru financial advice! 🙂

  84. a wounded bear permalink
    October 11, 2011 2:10 pm

    Speak your truth…boy you hit the nail on it’s head. We were appalled that we were taught not to question orrin. Even God says come let us reason together. And what was that word they used all the time…it discouraged individul decisions?

  85. Speak Your Truth permalink
    October 11, 2011 2:25 pm

    Wounded bear~

    Check upline.find a ‘movin-on upline’?..I am trying to forget…lol.. but I think you might find it in the archives at the top of the page go to the thread that says ‘TEAM SPEAK and Their Demands….You will most definitely find it in that cult jargon…and most of all…after the shock…it will hopefully bring some humor…feel free to add to it…it has over 500 (I think) of the brainwashing, cult indoctrinating, jargon! 🙂

  86. a wounded bear permalink
    October 11, 2011 2:26 pm

    SYT…your reminding of more stuff…lol. I confronted my mentor after the Louisville major, because he savagely embarrassed a couple during the hallway pep talk…telling them they needed to work harder so he could make more money. I realized then more than any other time that he was after the money. I don’t know why it struck me to the core. But oh did he get mad…to think that I was confronting him about his integrity.

  87. a wounded bear permalink
    October 11, 2011 3:20 pm

    SYT…to answer your question about timing…it was soon after we settled into MV. When was that? 07 or 08? Yes our numbers did drop hence… Part of our team were from the rv capital of the world so when the economy went south so to speak…we lost alot of people who were drinkin da juice. Lol…you like that Joe?

  88. Speak Your Truth permalink
    October 11, 2011 4:25 pm

    wounded bear~

    I won’t be the only one to remind you of stuff…stick around…you will be having all kinds of flashbacks…lol

    Sadly..I can totally see your upline savagely embarrassing someone…too sad..the ego trips these guys put themselves on. I will say this the ‘profit-sharing’ was very suspicious…and someday the truth will come out…if it smells like fish..then it is..it it is too good to be true…then it most certainly is…just like the illusion when they sell you on financial freedom…just a mirage… but if you listen to their rhetoric…loooong enough…you believe you see that pie in the sky…

  89. Emily permalink
    October 11, 2011 6:44 pm

    Heck I consider myself to have a fairly positive team expernece and reading these post brings up negitive flashbacks. This same upline that wounded bear referenced as bashing a team member had me in tears at my first major. He did not directly say anything to me but he made me feel like a failure in a meeting he called after an exteremely long day of meetings. Well I guess my upline was correct about one thing you will never forget your first major.

  90. webelieved permalink
    October 11, 2011 7:02 pm

    Speak- You are right, Team. LIFe whatever they call it these days breeds arrogance, ego and superiority complexes. Really sad how you can be one thing and think you’re another! I thought we were supposed to all love one another and be in it for the cause not the money? LOL! Sorry for the sarcasm…..

  91. webelieved permalink
    October 11, 2011 7:10 pm

    I have found this site to be very healing, it especially helped me sort out what happened and got me on the road to thinking for myself. It was great to know we were not alone in our experiences and others stories confirmed for me what I believed happened but couldn’t prove. It is amazing how many so called leaders have shown their true colors. It is really painful to have sacrificed so much time and money to have it destroyed by others greed. I am glad to be here and tell the ugly truth. I hope somehow it aids in someone else’s healing or protects others from experiencing what we did.

  92. Dorothy permalink
    October 11, 2011 7:33 pm

    This commenter requested that her comments be removed from this site.

  93. das permalink
    October 11, 2011 9:15 pm

    Great post Dorothy! Most of us have been right where these people are today. It’s easy to get angry and start hating after you realize how wrong you were for falling for this mess. It was my own fault for trusting my friend who seemed to have remarkable success. I was looking for something and believed I found a way out, even though it didn’t feel right. I am a free man today to help others without some hidden agenda. Now that’s what I call being free.

    Thanks for the post!

  94. das permalink
    October 12, 2011 1:28 am

    I should simply state the facts from now on. The truth for me is that I was lied to. I believed those lies because my pastor condoned and supported Orrin and the TEAM. After they seen hope come into my eyes, I was fed partial truths about those lies and why they did it. The end justified the means ya know. Orrin is truly a “dealer of hope”, but it is a FALSE hope with a hidden agenda. Today I can see through his fake humility in his blogs.

  95. Dorothy permalink
    October 12, 2011 3:54 pm

    This commenter requested that her comments be removed from this site.

  96. Burned Out With MV permalink
    October 13, 2011 6:50 am

    “We don’t sell SOAP, we sell HOPE”, oops my bad wrong decade and wrong MLM.

  97. a wounded bear permalink
    October 13, 2011 1:07 pm

    As we drove by peoples homes at night and seen the blue hue from their tvs, we called em loosers. We would sneer at people saying look at them 9 to 5er’s…home to work…home to work…they need team….to get out of that cycle of death. Lol lol lol
    Here’s one of my favorite quotes and fits what we left behind…
    NO PERSON IS YOUR FRIEND WHO DEMANDS YOUR SILENCE OR DENIES YOUR TO GROW. Alice Walker

  98. Speak Your Truth permalink
    October 13, 2011 1:12 pm

    wounded bear~

    You need to add that last quote to the Team Speak Demands (cult jargon language) post…did you re- visit your past there yet?…such memories..lol.. 🙂

  99. Used to be "all-in" permalink
    November 10, 2011 8:12 pm

    Just read Orrin’s November 9th blog “Leadership Polarizes Because Truth is Polarizing”…quite the dandy. One of my favorite sections of the Leadership Guru’s masterpiece is the following:

    As a leader, I have had to make the tough decisions, letting people go (or supporting COO of TEAM, Rob Hallstrand in this process) when performance targets were not being met. It wasn’t personal, but as a professional leader, I am expected to make the tough decisions in order for the community to thrive. I did and will continue to do so as a leader. I also, as the TEAM Chairman, hold the line on people’s character, when they do something that is not in line with the culture or character of the team. I will sit them down from representing the TEAM until the issues are addressed. We are a grace based culture and forgive quickly when people repent from poor character choices. Our objective is always to restore relationships as this helps all of us reach more people. The goal is to confront, teach, and resolve, but if someone refuses to follow this process, they will not be allowed to hurt the rest of the LIFE TEAM community.

    I couldn’t help but think that he must not have been refering to Huber, Darkangelo or Cullin in this process. Or a fellow PC who began the process of strategically defaulting on one of his properties. Apparently they DID meet their performance targets during their bankruptcy and foreclosure proceedings by speaking on a TEAM stage many many times each about how great the business was. I always thought the PDCA process that Orrin taught was the following:

    1. Plan – Go Power Player
    2. Do – Show 15 plans, “invest” in your business, and do the work
    3. Check – Did you go PP?
    4. Adjust – Mentor with your “moving on” upline

    However, after reading his post, I think the PDCA process he teaches his followers is as follows:

    1. Plan – Get indoctrinated
    2. Do – Be convinced you’re helping people, but in reality you’re just making the big dogs rich through their unethical practices that you’re either blind to or not aware of
    3. Check – Have you lost your critical thinking skills yet and are you teaching others to lose theirs?
    4. Adjust – If the answer to the above questions is no, then you will either quit because of the mathematics or unethical behavior you witness. If the answer is yes, then eventually we’re going to make you a PC. Or if you go bankrupt and you’ve lost your critical thinking skills, then that is fine too. Oh, and strategic default has no moral implications (the logical conclusion to GG’s blog post). You could also throw in turning your back on your pastor as one of the “adjustments”.

    [Editor’s note: Added blockquote]

  100. webelieved permalink
    November 11, 2011 4:39 am

    Used to be all In – Great Post! So now we know what he is telling everyone! Funny thing is his own leaders would have to testify that many here have more integrity then they themselves do!!! (Of course they wouldn’t, they are so used to lying)
    Orrin really dellusional! I guess that is all he can do is make up excuses for what he has done to his own leaders across America!
    Victimize and then blame the victim as he is so good at doing!! It is like a serial rapist saying his victims deserved it!
    I also love how he’s so subtle about making it seem these were Rob’s decisions. As if he makes any decisions alone. EVERYONE KNOWS ORRIN MAKES ALL THE FINAL DECISIONS and Rob is a puppet on his string. I would guess in court Orrin would sell out and blame Rob for it all. If I were Rob, I would run fast……
    Your Plan do check adjust rocks ! I love it!
    Stop your critical thinking, follow our deceptive ways, look the other way, turn your back on your pastor, slander leaders who had to leave because of our lack of integrity, and we will give you a reward! LOL!

    No thanks I will store up my treasures in heaven!!!

  101. webelieved permalink
    November 11, 2011 4:56 am

    ” As a leader, I have had to make the tough decisions, letting people go (or supporting COO of TEAM, Rob Hallstrand in this process) when performance targets were not being met……..I also, as the TEAM Chairman, hold the line on people’s character, when they do something that is not in line with the culture or character of the team. I will sit them down from representing the TEAM until the issues are addressed. We are a grace based culture and forgive quickly when people repent from poor character choices.” ORRIN WOODWARD

    So I would guess, Darkangelo’s , Cullen’s , Hubers and Guzzardo’s have all been forgiven as they have made poor character choices by filing bankrupcies, starting strategic foreclosures on luxury purchases……. but according to Orrin’s statements, others that were supposedly not meeting performance targets were let GO!!!! OMG did he just say that? aaahahaha!!!! HILARIOUS! Wow there is some logic, NOT!

    SO people got kicked out according to their perfomance and not their character?
    WOWZER! Thanks Orrin for showing who you really are once again! By the way how do you have performance targets when there is no contract to read as you will not give it. Also how is going power player over and over for years and being a RT not performence? Oh and by the way you have a predicimant in your statement, you have been telling us for years we have residual, ongoing, pipeline, btype income and NOW you say you let people go for not hitting some b.s. performance targets?!

    SOMETHING SMELLS FISHY ORRIN.
    BY YOUR OWN STATEMENTS …. ARE A LIAR!!!

    [Editor’s note: added blockquote]

  102. Speak Your Truth permalink
    November 11, 2011 6:19 am

    You hit the nail on the head webelieved! It is so glaringly obvious, the HYPOCRISY..is incomprehensible! There is no one that could wrap their minds around such a sick master manipulator with his twisted excuses, lies, and cover ups. I am seriously perplexed at how crazy this guy is, does he really believe the lies this guy makes up…and if he had conscience it would crush him. He is out of his mind, and delusional! He needs his head examined.

    I wonder is Orrin lying about and trying to character assignate the Office Works or the Builders he stole money from or Both? Typical, excuse maker and compulsive liar.

    I agree webelieve he is displaying once again who he really is and the world can see! Very disturbed.

  103. Freedomhaha permalink
    November 29, 2011 10:34 am

    @Amthrax Can you make an expanded version of how you found these documents? I want to show them to my former TEAM but don’t want to get them from here. Thanks again and keep up the fight for good. As they say “A man with character expects to be believed and when they aren’t they let time prove them right.” I have met more people of character on here than I did on TEAM. Time WILL prove us right!

  104. November 29, 2011 12:50 pm

    @Freedomhaha – It’s really easy. Sign up for a PACER account (http://www.pacer.gov), conduct a search on their names (use the document ids for faster retrieval), and get copies of the official documents for a few cents per page. All of this information is publicly available.

  105. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    October 15, 2012 2:37 pm

    Anthrax: wow, I’m amazed at the levels of credit card debt—and it’s like you said, not to necessarily look at it for the sake of humiliating any of them in bankruptcy (I, too, know what it feels like to loose it all) —but I was looking at the assets/liabilites alone here. Wow. Eye-opening. I suppose these folks, too, thought this would all be a safe, ongoing sort of “retirement”…….I was really shocked to read actually how little $$ a few showed on monthly income numbers–I mean, I was expecting all of these big high-five digit numbers. example: A quarter of a mil on CC debt with monthly income of less that 5500 bucks? Is that actually humanly possible to get that much unsecured credit on that kind of income, even with the best payment history, since credit ratings also look at debt to income ratios…just astounding. How does the Team biz get one to a point of the crushing weight of that kind of debt load?

  106. Former Round Table permalink
    October 15, 2012 3:57 pm

    Wisdom, what the the credit card debt in these bankruptcy filings show is the utter, complete lack of character these charlatans have. They will literally stand on stage in front of thousands and claim to be paragons of financial discipline, and yet they abuse their own personal credit. They are all living WAY above their means, just to maintain the illusion of financial success.

  107. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    October 15, 2012 4:03 pm

    RT: Hey, I can almost see people getting into unsecured debt in the belief they might get ahead eventually (like to start a business enterprise, etc.) but to the tune of a quarter of a mil? What in the world was promised to these people? IT looks like the Darkangelos were successful before the biz—I’m just sitting in awe/flabbergasted that they never earned more than 22-42K per annum as “emeralds” but had CC debt of $252,000! I guess this must be what happens in the search for financial heaven? This is stupifying that folks could even get that many credit cards to use, or advanced that much in lines of credit based upon income.

  108. No Team For Me permalink
    October 15, 2012 6:54 pm

    I wonder how many times the Darkangelo’s have been on stage the past 5 years parading as leaders, all the while they were raking up $250,000 in consumer debt. What a bunch of scammers. Is this the ‘fruit on the tree” they speak of?

    I wish every prospect could see this before they register to see what a bunch of phony’s are leading this group.

  109. Former Round Table permalink
    October 16, 2012 5:14 am

    The Darkangelo’s are EXACTLY the kind of people Orrin is looking for–they look nice on the outside, but they are rotten and corrupt on the inside. Anyone who has to go in to that much debt to maintain an illusion of success will fit right in with Orrin and his scam.

  110. Melanie Morgan permalink
    October 16, 2012 12:49 pm

    Former RT~;

    It is appalling what they will do and then try and hide all their dirty secrets, behind the curtain. I find it interesting the incomes in this thread, and never paid a whole lot of attention to them, I need to revisit with a more critical eye. It ought to be interesting comparing income, just too bad we don’t have their “numbers”; What they were paid on to get their incomes for those years? I have a feeling Orrin owes a lot of people a lot of money that he withheld for himself during those supposed profit-sharing, desert years. Thievery is the only word that comes to my mind, along with a great fraud investigator and incredible attorney who would be willing.

  111. Freedomhaha permalink
    October 16, 2012 2:12 pm

    Question to someone who knows legal wranglings better than myself: How were they allowed to keep their large house that they used after 2009 numerous times (as far as I know currently) for meetings?

  112. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    October 16, 2012 7:45 pm

    In filing personal bankruptcy, Chapter 7, in states like Wisconsin, 1) what you can “deduct” (meaning “keep”) is much higher than if you choose the Federal Standards, especially for married couples. 2) Not only that: you cannot be forced to declare on your secured debt (because, of course, it’s secured to the lender who holds it), 2) nor they cannot take your primary home to pay unsecured debt—many just claim on the unsecured debt, like credit cards, and cars they are upside down on.

    If people would have known that they were about to lose tens of thousands of dollars in value, they may have opted to include their houses, too—-because, and for example: in the State of WI, you can’t do “strategic foreclosures” without consequences (this is the type where you aren’t behind and you contact your mortgage lender, say here’s the keys, and walk away–but when they get done losing their shorts on it, my understanding is: they can come after you for the losses, at least in WI).

    Put another way: If you went belly up, kept the house, and then turned around to find you just lost half of the sales value, you’d likely be sorry you didn’t file BK on that, too, because when the BK is granted, i.e., “discharged”, it’s a done deal–no one can come after you. You cannot file BK more than once every 8 yrs. There are schedules you fill out for secured and unsecured debt.

  113. The Rascal Teamster permalink
    October 21, 2012 8:29 am

    I have never posted to your site, but I’ve been lurking. I guess I haven’t had much to add to the conversation at this point, other than a ton of disgust. I started reading this blog when the Team left Amway, but I had not been back to your site until about 6 months ago.

    A little history…..
    I have spent the past 6 years in the Team. I have never reached the Turbo 25 level, but I was close for a time in the early Monavie days. When I joined, Mark Paul said that this was a 2-5 year plan. I gave him that five years, plus another six months for the new Team / LieF business. I called it quits about six months ago when Team really started pushing the leaders to start blogging. It just didn’t make sense. Why would they want us to all start reading and blogging when that has nothing to do with the actual building of the business? There had to be a reason they were putting that much pressure on. Heck it was passed downline, “if you read and commented to Tim Mark’s blog, you qualified for a conference call with Orrin Woodward.” After reading Orrin’s blog, Tim’s blog, and the Amthrax blog, I started to see what was going on. A simple search provided all the answers. Amthrax was posting higher than the Team LieF site in the page listings. I began to see that blogging was not merely a marketing move on Team’s part. This was a war to remove you from the first page of the fold. They were now in the business of answering their critics with words, as opposed to results (a huge contradiction of the Big O’s preaching).

    That did it. I had to get on that call to find out what was going on. When I heard Orrin say that we had to post to the blogs to fight the Media War, I realized the media war was not fighting the degradation of societal values, it was not changing government and helping people live better lives. It was a war on Orrin’s critics….critics he created himself through the practices exposed on this site. How disgusting and deceptive to your people can you get?

    Then I read the bankruptcies of the Darkangelos and Cullens, and I about blew a tube. I had seen Mark & Jenn for ages talk about Chuck & Joe’s success and edify the heck out of those two. So let me get this straight, my leader, who is supposed to have my best interest at heart, lead Joe and Chuck into bankruptcy and Mike Gowen back into his contracting business (Mantra business listings has Mike Gowen operating B&V Contracting as of last November)? All the while, no one in my group knew a thing…..it was business as usual??? The man is slick. I never read an ounce of this on his face.

    Recently I went to the Berean Baptist home page (church of Pastor Dickie and many Team members). I was absolutely shocked to find that Mark Paul was no longer listed as an elder at the church. I still know people at that church, so I called a friend at Berean. Seriously? Pastor leaves Team. Bobby Dickie (former CEO) leaves Team. Don Freeze (another Berean elder) leaves Team. Matt Abraham leaves the Team….and many others….but Mark Paul leaves Berean Baptist and stays with Team??? Yup, left over a year ago with a couple teammates. None of this information flows through the Team. I have no idea how they kept this so quiet. Can you say, conflict of character? It would be the only reason for this separation.

    Mark Paul has said in his story CD that when he first saw Orrin’s HUGE Spanish mansion, he said to himself, “I knew they had what I wanted. And I didn’t care if it was legal, moral or ethical (chuckling)….I think I know what they’re doing. I can carry a violin case.” Guess he was right…and he’s still carrying that violin case for Orrin to this day.

    A BIG thanks to everyone on this site….and most importantly to Melanie and Raquel. The best thing that happened in this battle was you two creating that Facebook page. To mouse over the names of the people who liked your posts is eye opening. The lies that were told about all of you in the team when you left. Dear God, I’m apologize to you all that I ever believed them.

    Sorry this is sooooo long. I had to vent….freedom of speech is very liberating.

    ~ The Rascal Teamster

    …..as a side note, I love the term coined on this site, “Teamunist Drive-by Tragedy.” Team really is an “ism,” and they run it like a communist regime. I think I will define the term, Teamunism. I will also write the Teamunist Manifesto. Every good “ism” needs it’s governing by-laws, doesn’t it? I will email it to Amthrax for posting.

  114. October 22, 2012 9:38 am

    @Rascal Teamster – thanks for sharing your story, especially the part about the strategy to use blogs to combat the “media war.” Glad that your eyes were opened in part by this web site, and am looking forward to more of your contributions in the future!

  115. Former Round Table permalink
    October 22, 2012 11:13 am

    Rascal Teamster, thank you for sharing!! You have no idea how many people you will help with your simple post. I LOVE it when people in Team actually use their brains and think outside the “Team Box.” You are right, Orrin’s media war is not so that they can reverse the decline of morals and values in society, his real purpose is to bury the truth so that the raping and pillaging can continue unchallenged.

    Mark Paul is about as low as they get, in my book. Right down there where he belongs, with Orrin, Chris Brady, Tim Marks, Robb Hallstrand, Mark Huber, Bill Lewis, Holgar Spiewak, Aaron Radosa, Joe Darkangelo, …

  116. Melanie Morgan permalink
    October 22, 2012 12:24 pm

    The Rascal Teamster~

    Amazing post, I appreciate it and 100% agree with Former RT, you will help so many! You have confirmed also just what we knew was happening. You have provided a looking glass right into the “strategic plan” of Orrin & the PC and how they are “attacking/commenting” the truth, hahaha.

    I am sorry for you and anyone who has been manipulated by these fraudsters but want to welcome you and hope you continue to share your experience! I have been laughing at some of your comments, that I may respond to later. These guys are so predictable, it is pathetic!

    A BIG Thanks back to you for sharing the truth…it shall set you free! 🙂

  117. Melanie Morgan permalink
    October 22, 2012 12:34 pm

    Correction: The truth shall set you and others free!!…Thank You! 🙂

  118. No Team For Me permalink
    October 22, 2012 2:22 pm

    Rascal Teamster – excellent post. Thanks so much for sharing!

  119. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    October 22, 2012 2:58 pm

    Rascal Teamster: yeah!! This is what I meant….posting as to a member’s logical progression of the conclusion that this particular “biz” is really is/was an illusion—your story shows just that.

    I had to chuckle that someone else saw what I did: when you search on them, Amthrax comes up first every time—whoohoo!!

  120. Finally permalink
    October 22, 2012 4:13 pm

    Great post Rascal and others that have responded. It is very telling when you look at who has left team and who has stayed. The brightest and the best have left…Character and morals went out the window with Orrin and companies integrity.

    Another point to consider is this. So many of the team leaders ripped Orrin to shreds behind his back when he brought Randy Haugen and the others to team. I heard personally from Chuck Cullen how po’d he and others were that they built team to where it was and they all got kicked to the curb when the other teams came over. Zero loyalty from Orrin and zero loyalty from the leaders. All of the round table are pathetic excuses for “leaders” as they call themselves. They claim to stand up for the underdog and the opressed. Brady said in one Men’s leadership that if you that all you had to do to get his blood going is tell him about crimes against children…..that was the one thing he could not stand and would always fight against. Not too long ago he had the chance to do just that and what did he do….Zip, Zero, Nada, nothing. They say integrity is not doing the wrong thing and character is doing the right thing. In that one instance in time Many of the PC had the opportunity to stand up and shop what they are made of and they all caved like men in heels. In case you are wondering what that means just use your imagination. They pride themselves on standing up for what is right but in teaching that when you do mess up you man up and do what is right. Good advice and dead on…….cept they don’t practice what they preach. ***Disclaimer** What I am speaking of here goes for me in my life as well. I mess up plenty and with the right counsel and prayer I aim to do the right thing when I have wronged.

    All that I have read on here is stuff that is real. Told by those that have lived it for years and have first hand experience of the train wreck that is team. I see many that are in rascals same circumstance come to the same conclusion. After all the promises of what team can do and does you eventually open your eyes to what it is and come to the same conclusion that many on here have. They not only lie to the newest person but they lie about the results of the leaders at the top. Dan “Welfare” Hawkins was handed PC numbers and he has the gumption to act as if he has done it on his own. Tim Marks is said to have bought two platinum legs to go diamond initially in Q. I wonder if Tim were asked in public with God as his witness would he admit to that. If not could he draw out the teams he built to put him in diamond qualification? I have talked with enough people in his team that had called q at the time he went diamond when they noticed the IBO numbers in teams started with a 2. Q confirmed that only happens when and IBO purchased that team. Some may not understand that but the bottom line is it brings superman into question….In fact it makes that whole part of his being a lie. Again this is just more stuff that splains why they are not who they say they are.

    It really is sad about their blogging, pathetic is more like it. If there were no truth to this site they would not read it everyday and not respond. We all know they read this everyday..against their own P&P’s. What they don’t realize is that there are still people in team that are hanging on but also feed information to peeps on this site. They are sick of the BS as well but feel trapped. I pray for them and one day their conscience will get to them until then…. well who knows what we will find out.

  121. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    October 22, 2012 4:33 pm

    @Raquel: slight change of subject–putting it here because I honestly cannot remember what thread it was on: I found the exceedingly simplistic answer as to the enormous number of shell companies (such as the laundry list of Orrin & fellow ilk LLCs) in Nevada (#2 in country) and Delaware (rated #1)…and how they get away with it, with little oversight. It basically boils down to: state government—the state has NO oversite from the Feds (doesn’t have to report anything), even though some Fed offices are complaining. Even better: the agents signing people up for their shell companies can actually use their own names (the business agent’s) so that the public will never know who the true shell owner is…….it’s a better “gig” than laundering money to offshore accounts. When one of the Nevada agent’s was interviewed, it seemed to me, he advocated a “don’t tell/don’t care” attitude—but he said if he found out the shells were doing something illegal, he *would* turn them in.

    Nevada shell companies can be had for as little as $174. They are actually purchased from home-business-based residents of Nevada.

    A financial special was just done for, I think it was: PBS….and it shows how the USA is actually one of the best places on the planet to hide your money…..forget about the Caymans and foreign bank accounts, etc. Countries we seldom hear about, such as oil-rich Equatorial Guinea in Africa own one of the most expensive mansions in Malibu and does lavish spending—while their people receive little—it’s called a “kleptocracy”, of sorts–by being here, spending that, at the expense of the people, well, even the USA is starting to step in and confiscate property. HOWEVER, you can see one presidency after another touting their country leaders of these often-unthought-of rich money sources.

  122. Freedomhaha permalink
    October 22, 2012 4:43 pm

    Rascal- Thanks for sharing!! It is so good to read your words knowing the time I have spent on here contributing to help others. I too left the same part of the TeamCult (Rampage Renegades). I also lost it when I say the bankruptcy papers for Cullen and Joe D. Maybe it is wishful thinking that their gig will soon be up, but one more brick out of the wall is important. I hope that you stick around and offer important insight to what is going on in the cult now.

  123. Ex-Rampager permalink
    October 22, 2012 6:45 pm

    @Finally – “Not too long ago he had the chance to do just that and what did he do….Zip, Zero, Nada, nothing. They say integrity is not doing the wrong thing and character is doing the right thing. In that one instance in time Many of the PC had the opportunity to stand up and shop what they are made of and they all caved like men in heels.”

    Can you please elaborate?

  124. The Rascal Teamster permalink
    October 22, 2012 8:14 pm

    Thanks for the warm welcome guys.

    There are still a lot of unanswered questions. I’m sure as time goes on, you will help fill in the blanks. I’ve been in just long enough to see the leaving of Q, thru the desert, into MV and now the current LieF business. Lot’s and lot’s of questions….crazy, leaving hasn’t bummed us out at all. Finding out about this hasn’t hurt like I know it did many here. I guess we came into Team with a dream, so it was never theirs to steal. We never gave it to them, either. When we left, we kindly took our dream with us. Then we walked out the door. Well, we didn’t just walk out. I made sure to slam the door real hard a bunch of times and make a lot of noise on the way out. I’ve managed to save three former Teammates. Guess I’m a networker after all.

    I did the sickest thing in the World last week….just for motivation. I pulled out a copy (yes there’s more than one) of the “Leading A Consumer Rebellion” pack from my bookcase.

    –For those who don’t know, The Leading A Consumer Rebellion pack was a 2 CD pack and a Book from Team in 2008. One Brady CD and Orrin’s Team 382 CD “The Future Of Internet Business.” This is the CD that caused all of us to freak out. It was the CD where Orrin told us all about building the Walmart Of The Internet….our next business. If Orrin could take back one CD, it would be that one. It caused ALL of what you read here. Right now there are a bunch of big former Team pins reading this getting really red faced at the mere mention if it while nodding in agreement. That one CD made a liar out of every single upline leader. Sure kept us around for a while, didn’t it?

    Well, I listened to Orrin’s CD. Two emotions came out of the experience…

    1) Humor…OMG…Don’t do it! Don’t listen to it. You’ll wet yourself at the irony. I did twice.

    2) I got mad…mad enough to pick up a sword in the form of a computer keyboard and join you guys.

    For me you could say that CD is Orrin’s most eye opening, motivational CD of all time. Congrats Orrin! You PO’d another free thinking, choleric melancholy who can write. Glad to finally be free from the chains. Truth is music to the ears. You know it when you hear it. And you hear it here.

    Now if I could only get back the thousands of dollars I (choke) invested….

  125. ItsaPauling permalink
    October 22, 2012 9:53 pm

    It seems we all bring a piece of the puzzle with us when we come here. Thanks for your piece, Rascal

  126. Melanie Morgan permalink
    October 23, 2012 6:52 am

    ItsaPauling~

    Yes, you are right. Thanks to Amthrax site & rule; (i.e. requirement of crossl-linning) haha… and the contribution of everyone’s “piece of the puzzle”, it becomes very clear what and who we were all a part of. And we would have never got in or sponsored 1 person had we known and experienced what we did. None of it is what they promise or promote, it is an illusion and none of it as it seems!

  127. Melanie Morgan permalink
    October 23, 2012 6:57 am

    This site and those who have shared has helped me in more ways that I can possibly verbalize…and for that I am truly grateful!

  128. Raquel Peters permalink
    October 23, 2012 9:04 am

    Ditto on your last post Melanie! Welcome Rascal! Great to have you!

  129. Raquel Peters permalink
    October 23, 2012 10:06 am

    Rascal Teamster-
    I find it hysterical that you were rewarded with a conference call with Orrin for posting on Tim’s blog! I was wondering if you could let us know how the growth really is going in Life, since information seems to be spun at the top. I just cannot see the Life business working long term, because there is less deception about what they are really selling and especially with this economy.
    Also wondering what rumors you were told about us or the Morgans that you mentioned you believed?
    Thanks and it IS VERY FREEING to be able to speak truth isn’t it?! The no crosslining rule is another way to control followers and information. Good thing in the real world no one tells us who we can and cannot talk to! I bet Orrin and the PC are having a hemorrhage right about now. 🙂

  130. October 23, 2012 10:31 am

    @The Rascal Teamster

    Happy as a clam in high tide over here to see you get on board here as you have. Ain’t it great!

  131. October 23, 2012 10:32 am

    Of course, Welcome!

  132. I QUIT (and glad I did) permalink
    October 23, 2012 11:36 am

    Back in the day one needed to perform and get some results to spend time with their awesome, all knowing upline. (Puke in my mouth) Now you just have to type some bullshit on some wanna-be leader’s website. NOW THATS GROWTH!!

  133. I QUIT (and glad I did) permalink
    October 23, 2012 11:37 am

    Now thats funny!

  134. Freedomhaha permalink
    October 23, 2012 12:31 pm

    We have assembled quite an impressive group of people on here right now. Every time I showed a plan in Team or made a call I always had this nagging feeling that I was doing something wrong. I NEVER have to feel guilt about being with this Team. I would love to get together with this group of people. No red ties 🙂

  135. Rascal Teamster permalink
    October 23, 2012 12:32 pm

    @Raquel,

    “Everyone who left the Team was a greedy traitor. They didn’t believe in or care about our mission to make a difference.” You know the lines. You’ve heard them. They are pretty standard. “Pastor retired from Team. Bobby got let go. Chris Freeze got sick again so Don retired from Team.” I heard these multiple times from my upline. It just didn’t add up. They all leave Team. Mark & Jenn Paul stay?

    Growth? ROTF…18 months ago, we hit the Team 100 level with a minimal side leg. Now we are less than half of that, and the side leg is dead. I wouldn’t even qualify for Team 40. Being fair (this means giving someone the benefit of the doubt, Orrin), 18 months ago, we were not in LieF. Lots of numbers changed as groups were combined and split apart. Over the past few years, I’ve seen people appear in my business (referred to by Jenn as a scoobie snack) only to see them shifted somewhere else at the next business we joined (Stop complaining. You never earned those members).

    The other thing is I have no way to know if I truly hit the Team 100 level back then, or if that was all BS. We’ve never been able to see our system counts at the peon levels. But the last 30 day snapshot says that 2 people have gotten into my entire business and monthly volume is never consistent. Some months up and some months down–with slow but steady downward growth being the pattern.

    @ Everyone else,

    Here’s the main problem with any leadership business. About 14 yrs ago, I attended a $200 luncheon with some powerful platform speakers. When asked how you could tie your existing membership group into a self development program, Dan Kennedy said, “You don’t…..because you can’t.” As he further explained to a very bummed out me who owned a private online business forum at the time and was trying to do just that, “Self development is the one thing that everyone needs, but no one wants.” Zig Ziglar cut him off short and said, “That’s right. You will have a hard row to hoe if you are going to try to build a business based upon the premise that you are who you are and where you are because of what’s gone into your mind. YOU are your problems is a hard sell. How you gonna build a business on ‘you’re problem is you?'” Hmmmm……

    LieF is not like the Q business where you could say, “the product doesn’t matter–It’s all about the system,” and you would have business growth. Now the system is the product, and most people don’t get it. It is unfortunately hard for new people and new teams to get started for one simple reason. No one thinks they are a leader unless they’ve been a successful one in the past. Those leaders don’t need it. Everyone else needs leadership (HUGE potential market). Few believe they are qualified (huge market becomes a small niche). That’s why only the top 2% of any industry are truly involved in self development programs.

    I told this line of thought to Mark Paul during the LieF Prelaunch. He asked me if I thought I was smarter than Orrin. I didn’t answer him, but inside I was thinking…..”Yup, on selling self development, you bet I am. We’re all gonna die.”

  136. Rascal Teamster permalink
    October 23, 2012 12:46 pm

    @ Freedomhaha

    You know that we’ve all been together in the past. I’m thinking we were all together at one time in the Edward Jones Dome in St. Louis a few years back. Mark & Joe gave the usual speech. You and I looked at each other but never said HI. We were crossline 😉

  137. Melanie Morgan permalink
    October 23, 2012 12:54 pm

    Freedomhaha~

    You’re on!

    Raquel~

    They claim they are leadership guru’s, ” Example isn’t everything, it’s the only thing” and yet they have to manipulate and bribe others, to comment on their blogs? That is the incentive a conference call, WOW… hahaha Hmm…

    Why do they believe they are such the authoritarians on everything, pretty easy to sit back and tell everyone else what to do.

    Won’t people just “follow” if their such an all knowing example? It amazes me they send all these messages from their blogs with “their advice” but don’t follow it themselves. Perhaps they ought to take the tree out of their own eyes.

  138. Melanie Morgan permalink
    October 23, 2012 1:01 pm

    I QUIT~

    Lmao, they must have “lowered the bar.”

    exambot~

    Love your posts. 🙂

  139. Raquel Peters permalink
    October 23, 2012 3:59 pm

    I find this practice deceptive, using a reward to conform behavior(writing on a blog) to make it look like readership and comments naturally occurred, to hide this site………how sad. They should be embarrassed in my opinion.

  140. Raquel Peters permalink
    October 23, 2012 4:03 pm

    I’m suspecting Blomdahl ran a similar promo to get people to lie about me on his blog !? Lmao! I would be so embarassed, glad I’m not them.

  141. The Rascal Teamster permalink
    October 23, 2012 6:08 pm

    @ Amthrax

    I posted earlier today from a work computer, and I got thrown into moderation. Not sure if it was because I posted from a different IP, or if I got my handle incorrect. It might have thought I was a new poster. I might have dropped the “the” from in front of my name.

    @ Raquel

    All networks use leverage to promote good business behavior. Whether it’s through their comp plan or the actions of the upline towards the downline, all networks force members to conform to certain behaviors.

    Most teamers bought the line, “If everyone posts, we’ll move the LIFE site to the top of the page.” That wasn’t a lie, and they did it, too. For about 4 days or so, Amthrax fell right to the bottom of the first page. It didn’t last long. There was no way they could maintain that pace. Orrin is trying to take all the Team Leaders and turn them into little Orrins. If they all blog, they will own it all. He’s got all the Round Tables and above with their own blogs. Team leaders are not bloggers. They’re posers.

    The deception comes in with the ulterior motive…..when we ALL post to all our blogs, the naysayers will disappear from the first page.

    In the Team, they talk about the negative on the internet. Of course, the negative they refer to is their critics.

    @ Melanie

    Lowered the bar? You bet. It’s been progressively lowering for a while. Used to be triple power players got special promotions, like going to Orrin’s place in Florida. Then it lowered to double power players. The last one was at Orrin’s house in Michigan (he own’s Brady’s Sister Lakes place now). That party was a major promotion, and you only had to be a single. Pretty soon, you’ll just have to be able to show up.

  142. October 23, 2012 6:56 pm

    @Ex-Rampager – your comment was in moderation since it was your first comment. @Finally – do you want to respond to him?

  143. October 23, 2012 7:09 pm

    @Rascal Teamster – I approved your other comments. Good point on pointing out that the TEAM leaders are not bloggers. They would argue that being a poseur is a good thing, but we all know that they’re trying to “fake it till they make it.”

  144. October 23, 2012 8:42 pm

    @ Ex-Rampager….”Brady said in one Men’s leadership that if you that all you had to do to get his blood going is tell him about crimes against children…..that was the one thing he could not stand and would always fight against. Not too long ago he had the chance to do just that and what did he do….Zip, Zero, Nada, nothing. They say integrity is not doing the wrong thing and character is doing the right thing. In that one instance in time Many of the PC had the opportunity to stand up and shop what they are made of and they all caved like men in heels.”
    Mark Huber was sited as having a run in with a minor. And then it was covered up as stated above. And nobody wants to talk about it. Why?

  145. Raquel Peters permalink
    October 23, 2012 8:46 pm

    Freedomhaha- I would meet with anyone any day. That would be a blast!
    Rascal Teamster- I really believe the only way they sold the tools system in Amway was they promoted that we needed the tools to grow our Team business. We needed to be better leaders to get the Teams they had- they never addressed the real reason we had all the zeros. They needed us to believe our leadership lid was too low. What a joke now. When in reality all the while, Orrin knew that business didn’t work due to the over priced products, but he kept on selling his tools and kept all of us working for his wealth. Now in LIFE they cannot deceive by talking about one thing while really selling another- Tools. Everyone knows they are selling tools now as their main business, not so much deception. Followers will now make more informed choices and purchase less because they know why they are being pushed to buy.

    The truth is I was a leader long before Team came along to tell me I needed to be one. That is just my take on it.

  146. Raquel Peters permalink
    October 23, 2012 8:49 pm

    I read self help books before Team and will after Team. Heck all we have to do to get what they are selling is go to the Christian bookstore or the library or really just read the Bible and it’s free. Team promises they have the vehicle to get our goals and dreams and apply this info, that is where they deceive people with all the fake recognition, moving teams, stealing, not telling the failure rate, promoting the lifestyle they got from another business as their LIFe results etc.
    Sorry you already know all of this. :/

  147. October 23, 2012 8:59 pm

    “Lowered the bar?”

    I am getting the impression that this TEAM bar is so low low low and now it’s at crap level, just getting moved around to suit some scheming convenience. I seldom laugh but this is ha ha ha funny to watch – blog or comment to score time with Odooby and company! Jeez. It’s embarrassing enough you charlatans.

    Thank you Melanie. I find great satisfaction knowing that you and & other Ex-TEAMmers are now actively posting on this blog. It’s quite opportune for me to say to TEAM charlatans, eat your hearts out; and keep Watching this space for more ex-Teammers being set free and daring to share their truth.

  148. Finally permalink
    October 24, 2012 3:16 am

    Ex-Rampager, it is something that I can not go into due to the nature of those involved. I do not think it would be appropriate. I am ashamed for them and I have seen with my own eyes many many times that they claim to be for justice and TRUTH yet when it applies to them they ignore the means of how they achieve their ends.

    On the bankruptcy of Darkangelo. If you put a time line to his filing and the fact that it was just after he went PC. Now there was a big stink about him going PC at the major when he was being recognized, I was with our up lines and it was to the point where Joe almost did not get recognized. There was a question as to how he did it. It was also during the break from Q. All the guy’s that Orrin suckered over were in the back living it up with catered food and going over the Monavie comp plan….I know I was walking through. As most of the folks on here that have been around for a while we know it is common practice to buy extra systems and tickets if you are close to a goal and get get enough suckers to sign up. Answer to that dilemma???? Buy them!!!! Darkangelos bankruptcy filing had him north of 240 THOUSAND DOLLARS in credit card debt………Now, I doubt he was buying groceries with his credit card at that time. This is a theory, and only that but the timing is such that it would lend to the theory that Joe bought a lot of systems and tickets to get his numbers up to get recognized as PC. THE PC of course needed recognition to parade around to the masses desperately at this time so it makes sense that they would over look the fact that HE DIDN”T DO IT……Just a theory…Oh and he ain’t the only one. I heard the same story about he Martins, in fact I have it on good authority when they went turbo 100 as many as 30 + tickets from one team mate got thrown in the trash….Yep you heard it sports fans they were coached to buy extra tickets and move them to their team mates or just sell them to someone. Put pressure on yourself. And when they don’t sell you split the profit of the tickets from profit sharing for the recognition. The Martins knew this and orchestrated it just as they did going diamond in Monavie. The sad part is their team thought Jim actually built the team with hard work…No doubt he worked hard but it did not pay off because it took cheating to get the recognition. SELLOUT!!! So much lack of what they say they stand for it can be nauseating especially to those that bought the lies and false recognition and that is what kept them hanging on and spending thousands only to fail because they didn’t cheat. And don’t think for a minute the up line PC does not know about this……..Where did they learn it??? They count it as cost of doing business…They just never counted on peeps going public with it.

  149. Raquel Peters permalink
    October 24, 2012 5:00 am

    Finally- We were kept in by recognition that now we know was fake! It makes me nauseous thinking about all the lies we were told. I later watched the Hawkins’ team break a bunch of Rubies, by gaming MV by volume loading thousands of points to break those Rubies who were really only Silvers or Golds naturally……buying thousands of points for a few weeks to never hit the pin again! They all walked for the recognition and misled thousands of people in the audience to believe… or the Hawkins who were secretly given Billy Florence team in their Team back office (Team profit sharing) and I heard of them walking for Triple 100 when I knew they were not even close. More deception…..I can only imagine how bad it is in Life now that they have moved so many teams around! The new guy has no clue the deception he is being fed…..

  150. Rascal Teamster permalink
    October 24, 2012 6:24 am

    @Finally

    Whoa…..hold of my all calls…

    Did you just say that at the point in Team where Darkangelo went PC, and if I’m not mistaken there were many, like Strohs, VanBuskirks, Birtles…etc, they were backstage looking at a Monavie IDS?

    That puts us right in the middle of the “desert experience” (I use that term as that’s how Orrin describes the Team’s time line between Q & Monavie). I thought all of that PC recognition happened before the “benchmarking study” was announced??? Am I mistaken on that. And weren’t we legally bound to not be investigating anything at that point? I know we were still in court at that time.

    The deeper you get, the muddier this becomes, doesn’t it? I remember when I first started telling my dad about this business and how green the Team grass was, what he told me.

    “Son, the grass always looks greener over the septic tank drain field, but just remember, it’s being fed crap.”

  151. October 24, 2012 6:38 am

    A detailed, bulleted timeline would be a great addition to this site. Ex-TEAM members, do you want to participate in making a historical timeline of TOD/TEAM/LIFE?

  152. Rascal Teamster permalink
    October 24, 2012 7:21 am

    Awesome idea.

    Make sure to throw the CDs in there with titles and numbers. As the CDs are all in numbered order, it’s easy to see how they fit into the timeline. I think the readers would be interested in seeing how the mind control lines up with what we saw….as well as how they respond to you, Amthrax.

    For example, current Team members would be shocked if they saw what I picked up on. You posted about the bankruptcies to Joe D and Chuck, and mentioned how many Team members would have to go back to work. In reality, many did.

    The Team fired back with two system CDs….One Joe Darkangelo, and one Chuck Cullen. Joe talks about how as a kid he used to always want to be a fireman and a policeman, which is why he now that he’s free, he works as a volunteer fireman and cop. And Chuck talks about how he’d love to use his free time to get back into coaching. Both are ready made “I told ya so’s” if this site bashes them about it or they get jobs again. it’s devilishly brilliant!

    And the thought control drum beats on…..

  153. Former Round Table permalink
    October 24, 2012 7:59 am

    Holy crap! Cullen is actually saying he works as a coach because he WANTS to???? That guy is so stinking broke it’s not even funny. Does he mention anywhere that his wife HAD to go back to work as a teacher so that he could continue to chase the fake dream?

  154. Raquel Peters permalink
    October 24, 2012 8:32 am

    Amthrax- Funny you are asking for a timeline. I started writing my story with dates a month or so ago, in a timeline fashion. I would love to have some input on a few dates that I cannot remember. 🙂 Like when did we sign the ole 25pg contract in room at a GO Diamond weekend, you know the one we couldn’t read or take home? Anyone remember?

  155. October 24, 2012 10:29 am

    @ Raquel Peters, It was the spring of 2008 in Atlanta. Remember they put up….well what the heck did they put on the overhead and people started taking pictures of it?

  156. Freedomhaha permalink
    October 24, 2012 2:25 pm

    Amthrax- A timeline would be really helpful, and would have saved me from ever singing up. Hopefully it would prevent others from making the same mistake.

    Ex- Rampager- I wasn’t in back in the St. Louis days. I spent about a year in Team off and on after that and discovered Amthrax after I ordered and before my first shipment of LIFEcult material arrived. It took me about 4.5 seconds to quit as soon as I saw Joe D’s bankruptcy. Apparently he “drinka da juice” but didn’t “maka da money”

  157. Freedomhaha permalink
    October 24, 2012 2:27 pm

    Rascal- Info on Cullen and Joe D is sick. Nothing these scam artists won’t try!

  158. Rascal Teamster permalink
    October 24, 2012 4:29 pm

    @ Raquel,

    Kind of sounds like you nominated yourself for the timeline keeper / organizer person. We truly appreciate your dedication and loyalty to the group (was that Orrin enough for you?).

    For your timeline 😉 I’m currently listening to (choking back the laughter and tears) Team 382, “The Future Of Internet Business” for a review for this site. I find it interesting that your Go Diamond was the Spring of 2008. This talk that Orrin gives was given (if I’m not mistaken) in Saginaw in June of 2008 at a Men’s Leadership. He outlines the entire Walmart Of The Internet idea and the basic pay structure. I find his timing interesting, as we were still with the Q until August 08.

    January 09, there was a Turbo 25 and above party at the Mark’s house in Florida for leaders in the Paul team. Tim outlined the 3 interlocking circles with Internet, Community & Franchising principles in the blanks. He also laid out how the money would work…a recap of what Orrin had already laid out. While it was a hush hush thing, the info spread throughout the group. From that, we know they were still planning Walmart in early 2009.

    March 09 we were supposed to be free, but a confusing unexplained something or other kept us out a couple more months. We joined MV in May 09. I’m still not sure why the delay in joining MV. Maybe the lawyers hadn’t inked the $3 Million yet?

    I had always felt, and it was one of the reasons I joined Team in Nov 06, that Orrin was preparing to do something huge. Him leaving Q was something I figured he would do, and I wanted a piece of what he was doing. A burning question I have is was he already prepared to leave and trying to get kicked out, or did it shock him when Q axed him?

    It just seems freakishly hard to believe that he got booted in Aug, but had talked about his new idea 2 months earlier, and already had been talking about the same pay as Tim was the following Jan. Kinda seems like they already were preparing to leave far in advance, doesn’t it?

  159. No Team For Me permalink
    October 24, 2012 5:15 pm

    Rascal Teamster – It’s my personal opinion that Orrin knew he was about to get booted from Amway/Quixtar. They had warned him time after time after time about his group being guilty of breaking numerous rules in Quixtar.

    I’m totally convinced they were about to take his tool priviledges away from him and there is no way he was going to stand for that considering the money he made from it.

    This is my theory, (and only a theory if Orrins lawyers are reading. I am not acusing, just offering my personal opinion based on my experiences). I believe that Orrin knew he had no negotiating power on his own. He knew they would give him the boot in a heartbeat. So I think he spent the year or so before aggressively courting some key players like Florence, Wilson, Haugen, etc to give him some leverage, thinking A/Q wouldn’t let them go.

    My belief is A/Q was so disgusted at Orrin that they let the others go too. I think if Florence, Haugen, Wilson, etc all came to A/Q without Orrin, they could have worked it out.

    Then, once the trial started, my personal belief is that Florence, Haugen, Goetschel, Crawford, Bobbie Dickie, Pastor Dickie, etc all saw the lack of ethics of Orrin and Tim, that they all realized it was better to save their salvation and walk away, rather than continue to earn the blood money of these liars.

    Just my personal opinion, but it sure seems to add up when you read about all that Orrin & Crew did.

  160. Rascal Teamster permalink
    October 24, 2012 5:51 pm

    Oh for pete’s sake, No Team, are you telling me that the Haugen group left Team because of ethics–that Randy saw this, and he and his group ran the other way minus Claude??? The next thing you are going to tell me is that the Florence groups that are still with Team were stolen as well???

    What we had heard down at the Booger Pin level was that Florence retired. Seemed odd at the time to go through all that crap just to turn around and retire, but I didn’t pay it much mind. We were told that the Team was going back to system requirements to qualify for speaking on stage, and that Randy was having troubles systemizing his team. The result was that he was going to miss qualification to speak on the major stages. Rather than be publicly humiliated, he left with his group.

    The Randy story seems totally laughable and improbable now, but it sure made sense at the time. Damn we were arrogant!

  161. freedomhaha permalink
    October 24, 2012 6:23 pm

    Does it make sense that LIFE and controlling their own deal was the goal all along? They knew Mona Vie wouldn’t be the best thing, but could tide Orrin over (3 million helps) until they could open up shop.

  162. Major Dave Stoner permalink
    October 24, 2012 7:00 pm

    I was with TEAM from 2004 to 2009. I was in Render Oettinger and Bob Rasmussens group. I have never met as many phonies in my life! I couldn’t believe I was so blind to become one of those who believed all the BS put in my head. I know there are people in the Waupaca area that are still doing team that are worse off now than when they started. I’ve seen bankruptcy and divorces occur because of this pestilence! Raquel and Melanie I have met both of you several times. I was told that you and John left because you didn’t believe in team anymore. We were TEAM RESULTS-defend the shield! I remember Amway Bob parading around the basement of a church yelling “defend the shield “. What a dumbass! He brought in a shield he said he made. After you guys left we were forbidden to say “defend the shield “. It became TEAM RESULTS -in the hunt! Totally lame.

  163. No Team For Me permalink
    October 24, 2012 7:07 pm

    Billy Florence retired? Does it really make sense that Billy who had such an active, visible role of leadership right up to the end with A/Q and persisted throught the trial would wait until then to retire?

    Just my personal opinion, but I think Billy was absolutely totally fed up with Orrin & Crew and their lack of ethics and the way they stole Billy’s groups. Technically that was crosslining. Billy was not a part of Orrin’s downline in A/Q. Imagine how Orrin would feel if several leaders in Orrin’s group went with Billy and restructered the line of sponsorship in another business? Orrin would cry fowl faster than you can imagine. The hypocrisy and double standard of these jokers is rediculous.

    And Randy Haugen having trouble systematizing? Randy is the person Orrin used to study from. I think Randy was just sick of the over focus on tool spending and believed Orrin when he started us all on a tool system for around $20 a month and began telling everyone he could see the day when CD’s would only cost $3. Then Randy watched as Orrin began raising the prices time and time and time and time again.

    People of integrity expect to be believed, and when they aren’t, they let time prove them right. Kind of interesting how Randy was willing to do away with his tool system and join with MonaVie’s low cost tool system – $14.95 a month for 4 CD’s, free personalized website for all distributors, seminars are $10, major regionals are $20.

    It’s also my personal opinion that Randy was disgusted when he sat in on the trial and realized how often and how deep Orrin & crews lie’s went – from Orrin & Tim’s annonymous blogging efforts, to Tim’s refusal to produce court ordered documents, to Orrin’s $3 million “loan”, to all the lies about Amway & Quixtar.

  164. Raquel Peters permalink
    October 24, 2012 7:28 pm

    I think we may be off on the year….are you sure it wasn’t 07 that Orrin left Q? We left Q in Sept of 07 and were in MV in late March of 08 wasn’t it? I remember the Go diamond where they showed the overhead of team pay to be 07 and the time we signed all of that nonsense may have been the year before that? Tell me if I am wrong….maybe I am the one off on the year.

  165. October 24, 2012 7:30 pm

    Orrin’s place in Florida was bought from Billy Florence for a cool $20,000,000. Sight unseen I might add. Billy was trying to sell it to a business man in NY City, it was tied up for a 1.5 yrs. Then Orrin started bugging Billy about it saying he wanted it. So one day Orrin received a video feed from Billy showing him the property and Orrin got a cashiers check for 20 million for Billy. And the rest is history!

  166. Melanie Morgan permalink
    October 24, 2012 7:44 pm

    Major Dave Stoner~

    I am sincerely sorry for your experience on our team and wish there was more I could do to change what happened but know that is impossible. I and am sure we have met, but I wouldn’t recognize this by your screen name, should I? If you or anyone else ever want to talk private, you can contact me through my email with Amthrax, or go directly to my personal facebook and send me a private message there. I hope you can accept our apology.

    WOW..So many people and great discussions on this thread, keep sharing! 🙂

    Here is my take based on some knowledge. On the subject of Orrin “planning/scheming; he has been strategically planning this for years. He became his own “illegal pyramid tool scheme” in 1999, I don’t believe he knew exactly how it would all play out but I guarantee he studied and tried applying “war tactics” on them (attacking with multiple lawsuits immediately) … but it backfired, (hence being booted).

    He strategically planned and was building “leverage” over many years and (solicitation of all those icon’s in Amway that have been mentioned that built for 30 years) but he kept his secret plan from most (you had to be close and understand his hints) for many years and that he would eventually give Amway an ultimatum and thought they would give him what he wanted! We know how that went.

    But as you say he was about to LOSE his TOOL scheme… like immediately…had an oh sh*t moment and went into panic…this is when they lost it all, they made some really stupid decisions and never thought of anyone else but their own “money” and “agenda”…they sold out on every single person, decimated groups, did illegal, immoral, and unethical things, because he refused to lose HIS money! Orrin said: If they (meaning anyone) are stupid enough not to follow; then to hell with them!

    We all know Amway didn’t buckle to his way or the highway plan; it back fired and Woodwards, Brady, & Marks lost a 25 million dollar suit, then went into arbitration so it all could be swept under the rug, they can say it is an undisclosed amount and more importantly kept from the public because it would end up on the mountain heap of bad reputation they all already have. And then they promised to not talk “no negative” about each other apparently. Wonder why it was okay to spread major gossip, negative, all done with an anonymous blogging campaign spearheaded by Orrin himself! The hypocrisy of these guys really is astounding.

    Good to see you all here please keep sharing! 🙂

  167. Rascal Teamster permalink
    October 24, 2012 7:44 pm

    @ Raquel,

    Yup, you are correct. My bad. I have my join date in MV as 3/10/08. I just checked my Virtual Office. Odd that it reads my sponsor joined on 3/11/08. Odd things happened then.

    So it was 7 months out of Q before we joined MV. “Giving us time to re-establish our lines of sponsorship” was the word on the street — otherwise known as creative placement I now find out. I have no doubt that was the “let’s see who follows us, and then we’ll see where we can put them to most benefit us” time period.

  168. Raquel Peters permalink
    October 24, 2012 7:45 pm

    I should say profit sharers signed a huge document at a Go Diamond I believe maybe 2006? I remember we weren’t allowed to read it more than 5-10 minutes and when i asked to take it home and mail it I was told no. We wouldn’t be paid anymore if we didn’t sign.

    I do know that Billy did NOT retire he is/was building MV. In fact from what I understand in a year or a little more after leaving Orrin, his son Rich went Diamond and he didn’t have a second leg coming in from Amway from what I understood. They were growing faster than anyone on Team that I could see. They weren’t raking in the dough majorly on the tool business and they were all working together, it was amazing, no cross line rules on helping others in your area. In fact after I walked away from promoting Team, I found out Billy was using combination of very cheap tools that were more honest and up front then what Team was doing. One cd for @ $5 had more info on building MV than the whole top 50 in Team! At the time I was impressed that Billy’s team was actually trying to sell what was supposed to be the real business, the juice, not just re-branding the same tools.

  169. Melanie Morgan permalink
    October 24, 2012 7:52 pm

    I am finding it appalling all the LIES that I am reading that were being spread on why ALL those leaders left! I have resigned and accepted that pathological lying and deception is apart of their lives and they must believe nothing is wrong with it!

    Someday the truth will back them into a corner…I know they can and will continue to lie… until the time comes and they will have to answer for it.

  170. October 24, 2012 7:53 pm

    @ Raquel….Did you attend the meeting in Orlando FL with Dallen Larson and his lawyer and his Doctor and at least 1 BILLIONAIRE, I think his name was John and ______can’t remember his wife’s name. There were probably 50 couples there.
    But anyway this meeting was in march of 2008. Martha and I drove there.

  171. October 24, 2012 7:56 pm

    http://www.speakerconsultantservices.com/detail.asp?id=221

    “Each month TEAM influences close to 50,000 subscribers through its leadership development curriculum.”

    Really??? 50k per month, I think that’s a stretch.

  172. Rascal Teamster permalink
    October 24, 2012 7:56 pm

    @melanie,

    Mark Paul told us we won the lawsuit and we were all free to do business as we wanted. The shackles were off. Never was there any mention of the $25 million suit. I read that here on these pages for the first time. And I have to tell you guys, I didn’t believe a word of it.

    To anyone on the fence about this group…..
    The line of discussion in this thread and on these pages (as well as the Facebook pages) is serous. It has been going on for a long time. If it was a slanderous lie what is being written here, the Team would have sued these posters long before this. Orrin is not afraid, nor is he a stranger to the court room. The Team remains silent on these issues and allegations….even now that some are unmasking themselves.

    At some point you have to ask yourself the same question I did, “Is the Team’s silence proof that these statements are true, and the Orrin knows they are provable in a court of law?”

    I believe, yes, it does.

  173. Raquel Peters permalink
    October 24, 2012 8:03 pm

    David- No I didn’t, my Team wasn’t all free to get in to hit the case, but Blomdahl did attend the meeting with Dallin. That was in 08, i remember that one. I will add that to my timeline. Thanks.

  174. Melanie Morgan permalink
    October 24, 2012 8:45 pm

    KC~

    Thanks for the Link….First, shouldn’t Orrin lose his Team and Lief business by “consulting/speaking” for others outside (competing) with the Team and LIEF…hmmm…and then Orrin thinks he is worth these fees!!!??

    Really!!?? WOW plagiarize and memorize others leadership and charge this outrageous fee? I wouldn’t go list to him brag about himself and how great he is..not for FREE!

    Is this his fees for speaking/ “teaching” his own team? Shouldn’t that be for free because he is supposed to be “helping” them grow the teams he gets all the money for!

    But please remember he is NOT about the MONEY, the greedy traitors are the ones all about the MONEY! Aww… I thought he “cared”.. and they “mentored” for free?

    Speaking was the only thing we knew how much we would get paid and the highest we ever got was $2900 bucks and out of that you had to take all travel and expenses..flights, hotel, food, and any other expenses. But then we weren’t gurus either and earned our reputation, we didn’t buy it.

    Orrin’s Fee Range:
    $25,001 – $40,000

  175. Melanie Morgan permalink
    October 24, 2012 8:49 pm

    Rascal Teamster~

    I don’t right off hand have the link; hopefully Amthrax can put it up and you can see it on the 25 million dollar suit. Otherwise, I will look for it for you and put it up. Thanks for all your input it is bringing out a lot of discussion…Keep sharing! 🙂

  176. October 24, 2012 9:29 pm

    I couldn’t find the PDF of the judgment, but @mother talks details here in this comment:

    https://amthrax.wordpress.com/2011/11/07/whats-the-difference-life-vs-team-monavie-vs-team-quixtar-vs-team-amway-vs-team/#comment-18480

  177. Melanie Morgan permalink
    October 24, 2012 10:01 pm

    KC~

    Absolute great find!

    This must be Orrin’s plan B when TEAM and LIEF FAIL. More money, more money…for O. Another way he will sell his books too, just like “Get Motivated Seminars.”

    The more I read the more it looks like Orrin Woodward is trying to compete with the largest seminar system called “GET MOTIVATED”…looks almost like an exact replica…It appears that he is a booking agent for other speakers which I am sure he will get HIS cut and it won’t be a small slice either. Wonder what will happen to all those poor followers who will never get to speak?

    Are going into high price tag speaking, talent show?

  178. Melanie Morgan permalink
    October 24, 2012 10:10 pm

    Thanks Amthrax, I did find it at this link from MLM blog/ Ty Tribble and it has the PDF in the post: http://mlmblog.net/site/2009/12/orrin-woodward-and-the-team-lose-25-million-arbitration-suit.html

  179. Melanie Morgan permalink
    October 24, 2012 10:28 pm

    I believe Wisdom will love to read the link put up by KC, and hope she gets a chance. I would love to hear her take on it.

    The Link continues to take you to different web pages lots to go through. It will take some patience. 🙂

  180. Melanie Morgan permalink
    October 25, 2012 8:10 am

    Rascal~

    Looks like Mark Paul ( Wow and he was an elder?) flat out Lied to you! Sorry, it is so shameful these guys think nothing of lying and then “justify” it. I am speechless and just shake my head at the hypocrisy of these so called “christians!” Would Mark Paul, lie again and say he never told you that? One lie to cover another one..too sad.

    There is one thing I despise..cheaters, thieves, hypocrites, and liars. That cycle never ends with such people.

    Rascal, you can check out with the link I provided, the PDF is there for you to read.

  181. Melanie Morgan permalink
    October 25, 2012 8:17 am

    Hate the sin, love the sinner.

  182. Rascal Teamster permalink
    October 25, 2012 8:53 am

    OMG…….I’m reading the court docs. Does it really list Chuck Cullen’s bankruptcy in those docs? Oh YES it does. under the Bankruptcy Stay heading, “May 26, 2009, the court learned of Cullen’s bankruptcy in April.” This would have put us just over a year into Monavie. No freaking way! He was in that much trouble a year after Monavie? Joe, too?

    Remember yesterday I was off by a year and thought that these were caused by the desert experience with no pay. In reality, they most likely were. But we had already been with Monavie for a year at this time….the lyin’ thieves. With the money they said they were making, I would have thought Chuck could have bailed himself out by then.

    Guess everything wasn’t so rosey in the land of purple juice as we were led to believe.

  183. Melanie Morgan permalink
    October 25, 2012 9:12 am

    Yes Rascal, and from my understanding, the Cullen’s filed bankruptcy and because of them filing they were relieved from that lawsuit. You don’t go bankrupt overnight they had been drowning for a long time and then Bam… “you go slow to go fast.” Sorry sometimes I just can’t help but use the rhetoric!

    The Cullen’s knew they were in trouble way before this; along with some that were close to them, so where was the guru financial mentors advice?…They were triple 100’s right? Where was all those “results” of counseling for years? Yes, they said they were following the best and greatest. So clear, isn’t it!?

  184. freedomhaha permalink
    October 25, 2012 9:29 am

    Why did Cullen’s brother leave? He was talked about sometimes, but of course I wasn’t in my right mind to think “Umm if this is so perfect, where did that guy go?”

  185. Melanie Morgan permalink
    October 25, 2012 9:35 am

    freedomhaha~

    He was ripped off blind!

  186. freedomhaha permalink
    October 25, 2012 9:37 am

    Melanie- Well, in a way we all were! Can you expand on that please? Teams stolen?

  187. Melanie Morgan permalink
    October 25, 2012 9:37 am

    In a nutshell…Just like everyone else who “earned it”…they took what was promised after “earnint it”.. by their “fair” profit-sharing (stole it) and used it for themselves!

  188. Melanie Morgan permalink
    October 25, 2012 9:38 am

    oops: “earning it”

  189. freedomhaha permalink
    October 25, 2012 9:39 am

    Melanie- Figured. Where does this fit on the timeline? I must have joined after the character assassination that was sure to follow him leaving.

  190. Melanie Morgan permalink
    October 25, 2012 9:39 am

    I may share a little more, when I have time, thanks for your patience! 🙂

  191. Rascal Teamster permalink
    October 25, 2012 9:46 am

    Tom Cullen was still Chuck’s upline when I joined in Nov 06. I used to see him at some Paul gatherings and monthlies.

    Crazy thing Freedom, I don’t remember a character assassination with Tom at all. All I remember is Mark saying that Tom left due to having issues with us leaving Q. We were led to believe that some Team followed us and some stayed behind. I’ve actually thought that some Team was still in the Q. Guess not, eh?

  192. freedomhaha permalink
    October 25, 2012 9:50 am

    Rascal- Interesting. Thanks a lot for filling in the gaps with the particular area of Teamcult that I was sucked in. It seems that in this specific situation they had a ready made excuse that did not require character assassination.

  193. Raquel Peters permalink
    October 25, 2012 11:35 am

    Funny- No one could’ve stayed with Amway because all of our teams were already solicited out of Amway by our up lines…..you know….by building firewalls. I am just amazed by the lies Rascal. I do however believe some leaders are just repeating what their PC told them and have no clue. I know of no leader originally involved in Team that stayed with Q/A, do you? Leaders were either screwed over by Orrin/Team and quit or some left Team (like Billy Florence, Haugen etc) and went on to continue building MV. (Of course there were a few of Orrin’s crossline that stayed with Q, after the lawsuit started, but that is a different story).

    I for one cannot wait for Melanie to tell Tom Cullen’s story. I would hate to be at Thanksgiving dinner at the Cullens, it must be a bit stressful, no? Just like the stress our family endures at funerals and other events…….
    But hey according to leaders, Team helps families…….puke.

  194. Raquel Peters permalink
    October 25, 2012 11:38 am

    By the way didn’t the leaders filing bankruptcy have huge debt that had nothing to do with lawsuits? Clothing stores etc. Also didn’t the Darkangelos hit PC, so why were they in so much debt? There is no logic in their excuses for these things. Same with Guzzardos’ strategic default LAST YEAR while he was making a ton in MV and Team! Team leadership is such a joke in my opinion.

  195. Raquel Peters permalink
    October 25, 2012 11:42 am

    Especially when we were taught to pay cash for everything….don’t go into debt….blah blah. All the while Orrin is giving out loans to his leaders….making money off their debt too. I wonder if he or one of his many companies bank rolled the Hawkins’ and others mortgages?

  196. Rascal Teamster permalink
    October 25, 2012 12:01 pm

    Raquel,

    Did I just read you right? Did you say that Orrin was giving loans to his leaders to keep them above water? And you said, “making money off them?”

    Please don’t tell me he was charging them interest–that we can add loan sharking to the long list of devious acts?

    @Melanie

    I contacted you via Facebook message this morning. Let me know if you didn’t receive it.

  197. Raquel Peters permalink
    October 25, 2012 12:49 pm

    I know Orrin has given loans to leaders for cars etc.

  198. freedomhaha permalink
    October 25, 2012 12:49 pm

    I am also looking forward to the telling of Tom Cullen’s story. When I found this blog about a year ago I figured that all the dirt that was out there was out there. I could not have been more wrong. I appreciate everyone on this blog that has worked for the truth.

  199. Melanie Morgan permalink
    October 25, 2012 1:03 pm

    Rascal~

    I do not see any message on Facebook. Did you send it to my personal page? Looking forward to hearing from you. 🙂

    I will be back soon 🙂

  200. Melanie Morgan permalink
    October 25, 2012 1:19 pm

    Oops, sorry Rascal forgot there is 2 different entries spots for messages, got it! 🙂

  201. October 25, 2012 2:03 pm

    Some questions for our historical timeline:

    1) Does anyone know when the Cullens, Darkangelos and Hubers got their first start in Amway? Exact month would be great, but year will work too.

    2) When was TEAM’s transition to MonaVie complete? May 2008?

    3) What year did Orrin get his start in Amway?

  202. Melanie Morgan permalink
    October 25, 2012 5:56 pm

    Orrin started in Amway in 1993

    We got recruited into Amway in Nov. of 1995. Can’t remember but I think Huber’s got started after us?

    Transition to Monavie may help you may not, but we got registered March 18, 2008.

    Guzzardo and anyone they “squeezed” above us, Lord only knows how they manipulated and stuffed others in before us..but reason would have it that they all had to have gotten started on or before 3/18/2008 but then they were allowed to do so much manipulating who knows!

    I Believe Billy Florence was originally the very top of the leg even before Orrin. Word on the street was O wasn’t able to get started because of lawsuit when we all did, but then when he was free he apparently was allowed to weasle his way to the TOP; must have been with help from Monavie. Perhaps part of the back door 3 million dollar deal? So then went ahead and to the Top above Billy, can anyone verify this?

    . I also heard Orrin’s old Amway’s los (twisted now to O benefit and beyond recognition because they destroyed, destructed everyone’s personal LOS, or so am sure he was hoping Amway wouldn’t notice… I would guess not any that weren’t from Amway. It had now become the ‘new’ MV LOS which was brought into court for all to see, would this LOS be somewhere in the court documents? Mr secret O, himself having the whole group exposed how he “placed” in his NEW solicited group..Must have tickled him pink. 🙂

  203. ItsaPauling permalink
    October 25, 2012 9:42 pm

    I don’t think anyone had the guts to slam Tom Cullen. Tom seemed like a straight up guy and I think he left when he got the truth.

  204. October 26, 2012 8:38 am

    Thanks for the info. I found a post by Orrin on 2/15/2008 saying they are joining MonaVie, so I’m going to use that date as the “official” start.

    Does anyone know when the first occurrence of “going to a million” was spoken?

  205. October 26, 2012 8:49 am

    Amthrax – George Guzzardo spoke at one of our first seminars (I think it was Dec. 2002) and he outlined how we were going to get to a million people, so I’m guessing they started using that term shortly before we got in. I will see if I still have those notes and verify.

  206. October 26, 2012 9:20 am

    Looking at the bankruptcy documents, in their income filing statements, they say they’ve been employed by their current business for 9 years (Hubers), 5 years (Cullens) and 7 years (Darkangelos). That would put their start dates in Amway/Quixtar at:

    2001 – Hubers
    2002 – Darkangelos
    2004 – Cullens

    Does that sound right to you? Or could they have started prior to those dates (and only set up their businesses at a later date).

  207. Former Round Table permalink
    October 26, 2012 9:31 am

    Hubers were in way before 2001 — probably 1997 or 1998. I thought Chuck Cullen sponsored his brother Tom Cullen who then sponsored Darkangelo; so Cullens were in before Darkangelos.

  208. October 26, 2012 10:16 am

    @Former Round Table – thanks for the clarification. Ballpark figures for the Cullens and Darkangelos would be great.

    This timeline thing is coming together quite nicely. I think you’ll all like it.

  209. Rascal Teamster permalink
    October 26, 2012 10:44 am

    For this timeline and a review I’m doing of a Team CD, there have been many rumors that Orrin got a phone call from Team Office at the April 2007 Go Diamond weekend. This phone call stated that Team Office had been contacted by Q and they threatened to take Orrin’s tool business away. Can anyone confirm this ….. Maybe gave some details? It would be really helpful for my analysis.

  210. October 26, 2012 10:56 am

    Everyone, I’ve posted a timeline of events chronicling key events during the bankrupcties and strategic defaults of the Hubers, Guzzardos, Darkangelos, and Cullens. Also included a few events from TEAM/Amway/Quixtar/MonaVie. Click on the link below to view it.

  211. Melanie Morgan permalink
    October 26, 2012 11:19 am

    Amthrax~

    That is awesome, what an amazing ‘tool’ haha…so much could be added! Keep up the great work! 🙂

  212. Melanie Morgan permalink
    October 26, 2012 11:30 am

    I think the pie in the ski…”million people” goal had been around since 2001. They will have reached that soon of those who have Lost money!!

  213. Raquel Peters permalink
    October 27, 2012 6:24 am

    Rascal Teamster- Can you tell us more how the Mental Fitness Challenge works now and how they are selling it? Sounds like they are running some type of pseudo-counseling/ psycho-therapy cult now? In my experience they are basically counseling without training or a license and with other motives. When downline follow upline’s advice the up line get a higher paycheck. I mean really, have we ever seen anyone counseled to quit Team because of what it was doing to their family or marriage?

    I wonder what a trained, licensed professional would think about it? I find the arrogance that is bred in the group astounding!

    While educating myself, I have met some cult-experts that also believe Team is a cult.

  214. No Team For Me permalink
    January 6, 2013 9:19 pm

    I am not accusing anyone of anything, but wanting more informaiton. Does anyone know more information about the situation with Kirk & Cassie Birtles and Orrin or Chris’ old home? I had heard something about Kirk & Cassie purchasing the home of one of them in Michigan and that it went into foreclosure. But I also heard they purchased Chris’ old home in Florida. How did they have the money to purchase the Florida home without keeping current on the Michigan home? I’m not accusing, just wondering – was there money being hidden.

    Did Orrin or Chris still own the old home under one of their out-of-state LLC’s? If so, is it possible, they allowed Birtles to go into foreclosure, then repo-ed the house for a tax-lose. then re-sold it? Not accusing. Just wondering because the whole thing seems odd to me.

    If so, is this legal?

  215. Raquel Peters permalink
    January 7, 2013 5:59 am

    I was wondering the same thing on the Hubers. Did their home foreclose? Didnt they move by the Bradys and buy a new home right away? If they did, how does that work?

  216. Rascal Teamster permalink
    January 7, 2013 12:39 pm

    Kirk & Cassie bought the Brady home here in Michigan….the one Brady’s owned before Sister Lakes.

    Sister Lakes is now owned by Orrin, and Orrin’s old Spanish mansion is now owned by the Lewis’.

    I had never heard anything about Chris’ home in Florida or the new home in N. Carolina.

    I find that odd. He always talked about his homes, bragged about this or that with his property.

    I was active and attending everything when all that went down and never heard a thing about the N. Carolina home. That is strange, is it not? Wish I knew what went down with the $9 million he had to pay to Amway.

  217. October 28, 2014 2:54 pm

    I’m curious if my comment will be published on this site, but here it goes. I’ve been in the mortgage business for 20 years. I’ve seen it all in regards to what is out there. Personally, sales is a game in any industry where very few succeed in a big way. The inherent problem I see in most MLM plans is the inability to create a decent income while they are quote, “building their pipeline”. I’ve been approached by LIFE reps here in Utah and because I see a ton of these MLM’s in Utah, I have a little familiarity with how they sell their compensation plans, products, etc. I have to admit that I was impressed with the motivational side of the LIFE leadership material I did review.

    Now on to the criticism of LIFE Leadership leaders, not knowing too much about them, I find some of the criticisms of their bankruptcies and foreclosures a little over the top. Having been invovled heavily with perpetuating the “banking scam” as a mortgage broker. (in other words, writing tons of mortgages that banks should have never approved because they offered ridiculous loans, like STATED Income or NO DOC loans), I realize how easily it is to be accused of something based on an industry or a series of issues that eventually crush you and put you into bankruptcy, tax issues, or foreclosure. And a great deal of those occurred during that 2007 to 2012 period of time. I don’t know how many hundreds of Modfications we processed for people with what you guys call legitiate jobs. And yes, for that arrogant sales guy earlier in the comments, there were plenty of ego’s that had to turn in the keys to their over priced Mercedes Benz’s.

    Like I said, though I’m not a distributor with LIFE, I’ve done my homework, read the court briefs my buddy showed me, did a lot of of my own study and have read through this website carefully among others. Here is what I’ve come to believe with this inordinate focus on TEAM and Orrin Woodward. Someone has a big axe to grind. I’m thinking its a former TEAM member or group of members. In regards to the chronology, at least from what I’ve read and researched, most of the Life Founders issues occurred during the lawsuits with Amway. And if you are in a lawsuit (if any of you have been in one, which I doubt many of you have), it’s not that easy to make a lot of cash on the books, especially if you lose any of the suits. Not to mention it’s a BIG distraction personally, emotionally, and with the economy crashing in 2008 and 2009, it probably wasn’t the greatest time to start over again with a new company. One thing I can see is that Woodward and Brady and his guys are big promoters, but I’ve seen that in most industries. They are going to make things sound better then they are when the world is falling apart around them. If you want to throw stones at them for that then your pretty darn judgemental in my book. Heck, in my business, when wholesaler after wholesaler was going out of business (banks), I was always trying to paint a rosier picture then was really there with my clients. Imagine if NO ONE purchased any homes during that time because the market was falling. And many did not, and some of those who did actually didn’t end up losing. I imagine it’s the same in this industry as well.

    Most of your articles are based on the old TEAM/Amway group and Monvie. I don’t see many articles that are recent attacking LIFE leadership in 2014. Is it possible that LIFE fixed it’s business model. I was told that Orrin and Chris specifically had issues with the old compensation models in the old company. They said Amway paid very little back to the sales force, the same with Moneive due to their overhead costs. I live down the street from a growing giant called Doterra that sells MLM essential oil, I can see they blow big amounts on fancy buildings, etc. So does LIFE leadership buy big palatial office buildings? From what I heard they have a modest one in Flnt Michigan? I’ve seen some things I’m not that impressed with as well with LIFE, so I’m not sure what I’m going to do. But all I can say, most of these blogs have given me the impression that the negativity is generally coming from malcontents that either couldn’t do the business (I guess), or didn’t have the fortitude to manage their finances correctly. From what the guy I’m talking to says, it could very well take 3 to 5 years to build a decent 3k-5k income in Life. That’s one of the other reasons I’m not so sure because of my own time issues. But if you can build a residual income within that time period, it sures beats the social security incomes I have to work with to qualify some people for homes with my mortgage job. You want to know what is a real scam, you look at the US retirement system.

  218. October 29, 2014 8:54 am

    @karlchristen – Is this you?

    http://activerain.trulia.com/profile/karlchristen1

    If you’re not involved with LIFE, why do you have a screenshot of the Financial Fitness pack on your blog?

  219. Rascal Teamster permalink
    October 29, 2014 10:28 am

    Karl, Karl, Karl,

    I’ve been hibernating around this place for a while, but your post kinda woke me up.

    Yeah, that’s you in that blog with the Financial Fitness Pack behind your picture. That picture matches the avatar you used here.

    Of course we will post your comments. Anytime someone who claims to give an “unbiased, honest” opinion of the Life business proves themself to be another lying, dishonest scumbag, we will give you the spotlight.

    I love the fact that current Life members post here. You guys are awesome. You think you are helping the Team by posting here, but your lack of character gives them a bigger black eye than we ever could.

    The dishonesty is the reason why I left the Team, Karl. I’m not sure what upline you are affiliated with, but if you can sling the BS when you sell Life as well as you can lie here or write bad mortgages, I believe you have what it takes to go Power Player.

    Git ’em, stud!

  220. Missouri permalink
    October 29, 2014 10:43 am

    I have been reading this blog for quite a while in an effort to be educated on what I have seen around me. I agree that there are a lot of unproductive comments from people who were wronged and need to vent. I keep checking back not because I like reading about their sad stories; rather, because I have family members who are involved in LIFE and my own personal experience is that their involvement is not a good thing. Prior to their involvement, I had been approached by others about LIFE and always steered away because I do not like the MLM business model. I reserved judgement when my family members got involved because I thought it was their decision and perhaps their perception of the MLM finances was different than mine. What I have witnessed, though, is that we cannot talk about anything anymore without them bringing up the value of their “business.” I cannot host them or introduce them to anything without them trying to sell my guests or obtain their contact info. I have had friends of mine contact me asking why they are persisting about getting together, and what this “business” is all about. I put “business” in quotes because I know that with all the work they are putting in, they are not making money, they do not own anything, and they are wasting tons of time and talents with which they could be building a real business as they shill for these “leaders.” Keeping an open mind, I have listened to the materials, and the materials are simply regurgitated concepts from books I have already read on my own or could obtain at the library for free. The sinister thing is that all this info is good, valuable and wholesome. It’s just the way it is being delivered, as if they are coming up with something new. These family members have the dream of being financially free with LIFE, and meanwhile they leave their children and associate with “friends” who I imagine would not be their friends if they stopped attending (paying to attend) all these meetings. They believe it will happen for them. In the meantime, they are alienating their real friends and family in the name of what? I am not perfect, and I have not made all the right business decisions in my life either. And for that reason it is very tough for me to argue against these family members choosing to be involved in LIFE. It all just makes me so very sad.

  221. freedomhaha permalink
    October 29, 2014 6:29 pm

    Karl- I appreciate your comment, and thank you for the reminder that we are doing here is still very important. Many people are trapped inside TEAM cult and maybe posting here can help even if it is only in a small way.

  222. ItsaPauling permalink
    October 31, 2014 7:06 pm

    Is it my imagination or did ole Karl change his pic on the blog?

  223. November 1, 2014 12:29 pm

    @ItsaPauling – I don’t think he changed either of his pictures. His gravatar image was always different from his http://activerain.trulia.com/profile/karlchristen1 image. The financial fitness logo is still there on the latter site, though.

  224. Melanie Morgan permalink
    November 1, 2014 3:51 pm

    Here is a link showing Karl Christen youtube, just 3 wks ago he subscribed to a channel the LIFELeadership1?

    I agree with Rascal Teamster. So Karl you can see you get zero respect, due to your dishonesty and you have zero credibility. Can any of them just be honest?…my gosh…

    When will they ever learn to practice what they preach? AND it is comical they must think we are gullible, naive fools…. not anymore. 🙂 ; )

  225. Melanie Morgan permalink
    November 1, 2014 3:53 pm

    Sorry here is the link: https://www.youtube.com/user/karlchristen

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