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Preliminary LIFE Compensation Plan Analysis

October 10, 2011

Preliminary LIFE Compensation Plan Analysis by Brent Hansen

Brent Hansen has performed an initial analysis of the LIFE Compensation Plan.

It’s been mathematically proven that in the MonaVie compensation plan, the majority of people lose money while a miniscule minority make all the profits. Is this any different with LIFE?

From Brent’s analysis:

This indicates that the maximum success ratio from the network is 1 in 21 which would equal a maximum residual break even of 4.75% with a mathematical failure of 95.25%. No matter how large your group grows, the percentage of those losing will remain the same.

Note: Brent’s analysis only takes account of the residual sales aspect of the compensation plan; it does not take into account retail sales. Just as TEAM members have found it difficult to sell $40 bottles of juice, I think they will be hard-pressed to get people to spend $70/month on leadership materials.

So, like MonaVie, it looks like the odds are still heavily stacked against you. In the LIFE promotional videos, the narrator asks, “Is there a better way?” In my opinion, the answer is yes, but the answer is certainly not Orrin Woodward’s LIFE

Update: Brent posted a comment yesterday in which he goes into more detail about the mathematics of the LIFE compensation plan:

Speak, lets get down to the bottom line. I will not attempt to discuss whether or not Life will provide the highest quality leadership material, or the best price point. All of that is totally subjective, and I believe that you share the same opinion as I on that matter. I remember how DoubleX was the “best” vitamin, (which I have now found one better for one tenth the price) with no stomachache as well. Monavie was the “best” juice on the market, and I am totally sure that Life will have the “best” leadership materials available. Please allow me to define “best” for you. Best means hyper-inflated and not justifiable, but if we spin it right, we can feel good about it. Enough said?

Once you accept the fact that product based pyramid schemes are almost all internal consumption models, figuring out the scheme becomes quite easy. What? Internal consumption? That simply cannot be true! According to the DSA (and Dooly) most people join MLM to merely purchase the “best” products at a discount……..B.S.! Like I have said before, I have over 600 distributors in my MV downline as of several months ago, and 1 case of juice per month is being sold. If it is the “best” product, why are 599 people choosing not to purchase it every month. A friend of a friend has over 10,000 in her MV group, and she is down to 150 cases of juice a month. So that indicates that 1.5% of her group is in it for the juice. I would dare say that a lot of those will get off autoship once they figure out how to login and cancel it. Lets face the fact, THOSE INVOLVED ARE INVOLVED BECAUSE THEY WANT TO MAKE MONEY, THEY WANT A BUSINESS, THAT’S WHY THEY JOINED. With that thought in mind, lets base the rest of this post on the reality that most people want to join to own their own business, and turn a profit. OK?

The Life compensation plan is a stairstep plan with the same design as the A/Q plan. It pays from 5% up to 50% of Business Volume, which is dollar to dollar, and a override bonus similiar to the 4% money in A/Q. There is also talk of cash awards blah blah blah…but for this discussion lets talk about the part of the plan where 99% of the people involved will earn from, which is the stairstep, with 5% at $150 volume, graduated up to 50% at $15,000 volume.

A new trend in MLMs now is the 3 and its free program. Visalus started it, and now everyone else is jumping on the bandwagon. Think about it, it strengthens their legal foothold by focusing on the “retail” aspect a little bit more than they typically do. Even Monavie is announcing a 3 and its free coming right up. With Visalus it doesn’t matter whether your customers are purchasing retail or wholesale, either way you get and equivalent dollar value of product each month you have customers which are not participating in the compensation plan. In other words, if you have 3 customers at $100 (wholesale or retail), you can get $100 of product a month. Whatever average level those 3 are at you are given 1/3 of that volume. Visalus has done a great job with this, and they must, because the compensation plan from the network is still horrendous. Now, with Life, I was told that the 3 customers must be “retail” purchasers, meaning you must produce enough retail profits to cover you own basic $50 subscription. So, without anything in print, I am merely assuming that if you had 3 “retail” customers paying $70, that would give you $60 profit which is enough for your subscription plus tax and shipping. The three and its free programs are merely a way of trying to legitimize a product based pyramid scheme. It gives them a more legal foothold, just like the member/client volume reporting with A/Q did right? None of us ever cheated on the reporting, and I promise I had 100 pv of customers every month, wink, wink. Now this is all subjective, and the real question is, how many people do you think will stay on a subscription without the “dream” of their own business attached to it? Is the Life product “so good” that everyone will flock to it? Apparently General Motors is enrolling people like crazy on it…hahahaha….maybe Obama is subsidizing the GM executives with the Life training subscriptions. One pyramid supporting another pyramid, how novel. So lets throw all of this subjectivity out the window and take a look at Life for the sheer mathematics. EVERYTHING IN MLM IS SUBJECTIVE EXCEPT THIS PART. YOU CANNOT ARGUE WITH THE MATHEMATICS THAT ARE WRITTEN INTO A COMPENSATION PLAN. THEY ARE WHAT THEY ARE, PERIOD!

When I analyze a plan, there is one basic formula, that remains constant throughout a plan. You can forget the smoke, the mirrors, the trips, the cars, the blah blah blah, because the foundation sets the entire plan for the entire company. What is this foundational formula? Its simple, when you figure out what it takes for a brand new person to break even each month FROM THE NETWORK MARKETING ASPECT ALONE, this will not only give you a maximum success ratio (barring mitigating factors), it will also give you the formula for compensation dollar allocation. Does this make sense?

Since Life is a stairstep, that means you need to remain one bracket higher than your teams, otherwise all compensation dollars you would have received on those teams, will be paid out to those below you and you will simply earn on your own volume. So what does it take to break even from the Life network on a residual basis? To break even at the minimum subscription it takes 2 teams with 10 people in each leg on the minimum subscription of $50 a month. That is 21 people including yourself generating $1,050 worth of business for you to keep around $110.00. Now you might say that this is more than $60, which I agree it is, but if you do not reach the $1,000 dollar bracket (20%), you will be in the same bracket as your top partners in each leg, and you will be paid at the same bracket as they are thus resulting in a check to you of $5.00. So the graduated brackets in a stairstep force you to build width, which creates more profitability for the company. So, as I said earlier the basic foundational formula for this plan is a 21 to 1 ratio, meaning out of 21 involved no more than 1 may break even from the compensation plan. This means that a mere 4.75% of all of those involved can ever earn enough from the network to cover the cost of their monthly subscription. If 4.75% is the maximum success ratio, that would indicate that 95.25% of the network can never break even from the network. Trust me, 4.75% is the “maximum” success ratio, usually mitigating factors such as placement, overflow, teamwork etc. etc. can lower the actual ratio quite a bit. As a matter of fact the max ratio in MV is 3.2% but actual ratio with factors is .05%. So when you look at Life and say 4.75%, that is best case scenario.

The other thing we can learn from this ratio is allocation of compensation dollars. Since only 4.75% will ever make it to the $1000 pv level, which is sharing 20% of the volume, this tells us that the other 95.25% of everyone involved will never share in more than 10% of total volume company wide. This means that 2.68% of all compensation dollars payed out will be shared between the 95.25% of the network, and that 97.32 of available compensation will be shared by a mere 4.75% of the network. THESE FACTORS NEVER CHANGE, NO MATTER WHAT BONUSES ARE ADDED. If you have 10 partners that want to cover their subscription you all must bring in 210 people that cannot cover subscription. If 100 want to pay for their cds, you must bring in 2100 that cannot. If 1,000 people want to earn enough to cover their monthly package, you must all bring in 21,000 who cannot. This is the travesty of MLM. Almost every single company is built on failure rates of 95% plus of its entire distributor force, and Life is no different.

So Speak, I have said all of this to say this, I can show you a DOZEN companies with a better ratio than 21 to 1, without even researching. Meaning, there is no way that Life can be the “best” compensation plan, or the “cheapest” network in the industry, I am sorry, but I would have to call B.S. on that one. An even sadder fact about this particualr plan is the fact that production costs are much lower than a case of juice, or a box of soap. A CD? You can duplicate these for under 25 cents a copy, thus making a 50% payout on $50 a total and complete joke. The company is making big bucks off of this one, I guarantee it. And after overhead, where is the remainder of the $25 going to? This is going to be great, cannot wait to see how it all unfolds.

185 Comments leave one →
  1. das permalink
    October 10, 2011 6:39 pm

    According to Orrin, Team is a non-prifit organization, LMAO! This is a quote from his blog, “Team Life – Five Priciples”

    “Because the Team is a performance-based culture, 100% of the profits remaining after expenses are flowed back to the field leaders who qualify as directors. Unlike most training companies, where a few keep all profits, we designed a fair system to reward the leadership team that builds the TEAM. No special deals period, everything is based upon numerical performance. What other training company can say that? Indeed, to my knowledge, TEAM is the only zero profit training company in the marketplace.”

    I am sure that they will be applying for non-profit status any day now.

    Seriously though, in light of all the people that have had their businesses stolen from them, it doesn’t really matter if you become a “director” in the profit sharing, since it can be taken from you if you question or disagree with Him.

    Brent, thanks for all of your help explaining the comp plan. Very much appreciated!

  2. brent hansen permalink
    October 10, 2011 7:11 pm

    Originally I was told the plan would have a 75% payout which would be a little closer to being “non-profit” than it currently is. In order to back this statement, the “Life” back office would have to have total transparency available to the entire group. This would include full disclosure of all profits and full accounting of where they are going. When I asked where the 75% was, I was told there is a portion being set away for future legal situations.

    In all reality, compensation dollar allocation is a more critical factor than total payout. You can payout a 100% of all profits, and 99% of that payout could go to less than 1% of the company. That would still mean the company is not turning a profit, but no one in the team would be making any money.

    Das, I guarantee you that if they land at 60% total payout, that it does not take 40% to run the entire company. The Nuriche compensation plan is 40-60% split without a dime of breakage, and a full payout, yet that 40% covers all corporate overhead, cost of product, and corporate profit. I guarantee that the Nuriche products have a higher production cost than CDs, books or functions. Sorry but I have to call B.S. on the “non-profit” gig!

  3. Speak Your Truth permalink
    October 10, 2011 7:39 pm


    Non-profit… I agree any day now..lhol…oh how clever…. for the shysters… would be a way to get out of paying taxes …hmm. next thing we know they will be calling it a ‘church’…that would be scary but I have heard from some think they have created a form of their own religion..

    Now.. wait a minute… “Unlike most training companies, where a few keep all profits, we designed a fair system to reward the leadership team that builds the TEAM.”

    There have been plenty of leaders who DID build the TEAM and their reward was it was stolen…I thought Brent did a fine job and pointed out clearly that the… ‘few keep all the profits”… Fair?…doesn’t sound even remotely ‘fair’. at least not for everyone and definitely NOT from our experience….and NO SPECIAL DEALS?…hahahaha!!! Are they serious? Oh those ‘special deals’ must be all used up…no more teams to disperse.. then has the audacity to say;

    “What other company can say that?” WoW….who does he thinks believes that pile. As I recall Dan Hawkins and others have gotten plenty of ‘SPECIAL DEALS’.. and I do recall hearing something about Orrin getting quite the deal..could be wrong though.

    I too say… kudos and cheers to Brent!!!! Can’t argue that MATH…it is what it is!

  4. October 10, 2011 8:27 pm

    I’m still waiting to hear from Troy Dooley who indicated he would be getting some answers………

  5. Speak Your Truth permalink
    October 10, 2011 9:18 pm

    Yes Rocket, it does seem it is taking a bit longer than expected…it must going to be a doozy when those answers come. 🙂

  6. rickdg permalink
    October 11, 2011 7:06 am

    Beautiful job Brent! Thanks for doing the math. Non-profits can pay their officers any amount they want to. If Woodward and Brady didn’t have another outlet, (like the church they own) they would be paying a lot in taxes.

    As it says in their news section:

    Our New President, Laurie Woodward
    Our New Vice President, Jill Guzzardo
    Our New Treasurer, Rob Hallstrand
    Our New Secretary, Terri Brady
    Our New Directors: Jackie Lewis, Lana Hamilton and Amy Marks

    This looks like another action to avoid paying tax.

  7. brent hansen permalink
    October 11, 2011 7:49 am

    Rick, are you referring to All Grace Outreach? Tell us about it.

  8. Speak Your Truth permalink
    October 11, 2011 7:53 am


    Doesn’t the monies of a non-profit have to be public? I know on Juicescam they have pointed out many things about MV’s..M.O.R.E project and have shown where there is very much suspicion on the legitimacy.

  9. Speak Your Truth permalink
    October 11, 2011 7:58 am

    I would like to see Vogel, Juicescam, or anyone else do the research on their All Grace, like they did on the M.O.R.E. project…those guys are experts at researching this stuff. 🙂

  10. brent hansen permalink
    October 11, 2011 8:02 am

    Speak, the Sarbanes-Oxley act only requires government oversight for publicly traded companies, all of this started because of the accounting practices at Enron. To the best of my knowledge, this act does not include 501c3s. If I remember correctly the More Project scandal was because the BBB was somehow involved in trying to give some sort of accreditation to the project, and red flags were flying up everywhere.

  11. brent hansen permalink
    October 11, 2011 8:30 am

    All Grace is a Michigan based non-profit, here is the laws that govern non-profits in Michigan.

  12. brent hansen permalink
    October 11, 2011 8:34 am

    Here is a list of items that would exempt a Michigan non-profit from any A.G. oversight. Do any of these apply?

    charities that solicit or receive less than $25,000 in contributions in any 12-month period, so long as it is an all-volunteer organization with no paid staff person engaged in helping to solicit or receive funds

    churches, religious organizations and organizations that are an integral part of a church

    private foundations or other organizations that solicit contributions only from members, directors, or members of the families of those persons, AND the organization does not invite or encourage members of the general public to contribute or become members of the organization

    schools / educational institutions that have been authorized to operate by the Michigan Department of Education or the State Board of Education

    veterans’ organizations that have been chartered by Congress

    charities that receive funding only from one other licensed charitable organization such as a supporting organization

    licensed hospitals and hospital based foundations and hospital auxiliaries that support only one or more licensed hospitals

    organizations that are licensed by the Department of Human Services as day care or other organizations providing service to children and families

    those solicitations that are to benefit one or more named individuals or families (Such solicitations would not be considered charitable solicitations under federal or state law, but the Act does contain a specific exemption for them.)

  13. brent hansen permalink
    October 11, 2011 10:20 am

    Does this sound familiar?

  14. brent hansen permalink
    October 11, 2011 1:06 pm

    I was just able to rewrite the Life compensation plan with the SAME NUMBERS, and have a maximum success ratio 8 times greater than the current plan, 33.3% of the people in profit, with the top person earning $1809.82 per month, 3 people earning $309.82 per month, 9 people earning $122.32 per month, 27 people earning $68.75 per month, and 60 people breaking even by earning $50.00 per month. For a grand total at $15,000 PV of 100 people in profit vs. 14 people as the structure currently stands.

    The amazing thing is the top guy earning $1809.82 per month will only sacrifice $400 per month of commission to bring an extra 86 people in the network into a possible profit situation. Whatever sacrifice is made short term, will be made up for with higher retention, and long term stability and growth.

    Couple that with the ability to add extra income through the possiblity of “retail” sales, and you are one step closer to having a viable model for the masses. Moving the numbers around can make a huge difference when it compounds.

    There is so much more that companies can do if they are looking at it from the bottom up instead of the top down. You would think with the resources at hand that a much better job could have been done. But, I am sorry to say that in its current state, the plan is the same ol.

  15. Speak Your Truth permalink
    October 11, 2011 2:15 pm

    Brent~ Once again thanks…I don’t know whether to cry or laugh…lol for now..The top guy is still not going to turn a profit…not unless he doesn’t go to any majors, seminars, opens, ‘webinars’… or whatever they call them things you watch on a projector in a living room…lol… nor should they purchase any extra outside tools like projectors,all the packs, top 50, clothing, purses, bobble…or what ever they have come up with to internally consume …because there is no way if they are ‘all in’….well let’s say they won’t be bringing the wife

    Keep working they must be reading your posts…lol.. 🙂

  16. brent hansen permalink
    October 11, 2011 2:24 pm

    Speak, I have heard that commissions will be paid down for each ticket / bobble head sold (hahaha). The commissions are yet to be seen, but all of that will simply become part of the ratio, unless they vary off the basic compensation foundation, which I doubt. If you have to buy a booble head every month, and can get paid on those who buy bobble heads, the ratio comes into effect, if not you are right, the hole they dig can never be filled.

  17. Speak Your Truth permalink
    October 11, 2011 4:36 pm

    Oh so the same kind of complex math stuff for the tickets too….lol…You do have to remember to put things into lamens terms for us..mathematically challenged ..well (me)…and I used to be good at math..dang.

    Yea not quite sure about that bobble head, it was too costly for our budget at the time.. although I really don’t know how we built the business without it…and am not sure the revenue was shared…lol….I have an inkling all those sales only went to the designer…who had a captive market… Which I am sure added up in the 😉

  18. Emily permalink
    October 11, 2011 6:58 pm

    I always thought that bobble head looked like an extremely pissed off Calvin from the comic strip Calvin and Hobbes.

  19. Speak Your Truth permalink
    October 11, 2011 6:59 pm

    Something else Brent…maybe you know..if the LLR book’s… all sales..go into the profit-sharing?…I highly doubt it…just a wild guess of That is one way to quarantee some forced income flow and sales of the book, since you cannot get started without it being part of the start up pkg.. they have forced that book in so many ways.. from the beginning. That would be very telling..whether they are ‘sharing’.. those sales in PS.

    At what level do you think someone would pay for the years exspenses and make a living? Before.. at RT…it paid for the years exspenses and a good sized inventory (larger than a truck) at least our inventor was way larger… but what was left over was a pittance for a family with children to live on. So I was just curious and also they have to had lowered the bar for RT…do you know what it takes to qualify now?

  20. Speak Your Truth permalink
    October 11, 2011 7:26 pm


    lol..I can not remember the cost of that do you? It wasn’t worth a buck and I just remember the price was ridiculous. Quite frankly, I was discusted and thought what a greedy shame that CB take advantage of people with that trinket and promote it for everyone to buy….knowing that 99% of those people weren’t ever going to making a profit and people were already ‘over spending’ on the ‘tools’. Alls I remember is him saying.. from stage.. it ‘cost’ him a lot of money to have them selfishly greedy.. for a trinket… I don’t know of anyone that bought one do you?

  21. Speak Your Truth permalink
    October 11, 2011 7:33 pm


    I have been meaning to compliment you on the new look for LIEF in this threads.. post…lol 🙂

  22. brent hansen permalink
    October 11, 2011 7:48 pm

    Speak, the “new look” is a pdf file, click on it. Enjoy the artwork, it was inspired by you.

  23. October 11, 2011 7:55 pm

    The graphic was in Brent’s PDF. I had nothing to do with it. The term LIEF is better than LIfE, I will say.

  24. switch permalink
    October 11, 2011 8:05 pm


  25. Speak Your Truth permalink
    October 11, 2011 8:10 pm

    Thanks Amthrax… 🙂


    OMg… that is flippin hilarious…aside from the math..I still don’t get…lol
    I love the comics!!! I didn’t even know it was a PDF…lol

    I do have to find something for you on here that you will just love…since you are the mathematician… 🙂

  26. Speak Your Truth permalink
    October 11, 2011 8:11 pm


    Where have you been…LHOL…Maybe we should print and copy that PDF and leave them on the windshields at the majors… 🙂

  27. brent hansen permalink
    October 11, 2011 8:12 pm

    I learned the term “Lief” from Speak, thus the inspiration.

  28. brent hansen permalink
    October 11, 2011 8:20 pm

    Read back through OW’s quote for clarification and “zero profit” is much different than “non profit”. Basically his quote claims that Life is paying out 100% of all profits after expenses. I guess that cd duplication has skyrocketed since the recession, otherwise the $50 basic subscription is costing them just shy of $25 bucks to make. Wow, 100% of profits sounds great until you talk about allocation, it all goes downhill from there.

  29. Emily permalink
    October 12, 2011 9:28 am

    @ speak No I don’t remember how much they cost. Like you I remember thinking wow that thing is way overpriced and really ugly. Sadly i do remember people buying them and then standing in line and waiting for the creator to autograph it. More specficly I remember observing someone who bought it and it broke within minutes. They were able to get it replaced.

  30. switch permalink
    October 12, 2011 4:43 pm

    oh, you know Speak, just sitting back and watching all the powerful and truthful posts coming forward on this whole deal. What a beautiful sight to see.

    A road trip to Ohio would be epic wouldn’t it?

  31. Speak Your Truth permalink
    October 12, 2011 5:32 pm


    Just curious…glad to see you are kicking back….we missed ya. Yea the road trip..with some PDF flyers…could create some unforgetable memories…lol 🙂

  32. K. Crukley permalink
    October 12, 2011 6:04 pm

    You got to love the NEW video Chris Brady posted on the TEAM website…. promoting NEW and EXCITING TEAM tools at the upcoming major, mentioning the tool room will be open early, telling everyone to budget for the tool room so you have the money put aside, and then telling everyone to ‘stock up’ because its the beginning of your NEW LIFE. Oh and NOW on LIFE products you earnh PV so you can “buy it all” and the ‘computer’ will store all your info (I love how he talks to the camera as if no one knows what a computer can do!).



    I read notes from previous major seminars… these tag-lines will save new TEAM members thousands of dollars and thousands of wasted hours…

    • A student will listen, and if someone doesn’t… then build depth
    • “Fire Lines” – to protect against negatively blowing out entire leg
    • Building depth increases your retention
    • How do you build depth? Work around Joe, not through him
    • If it effects you so much that someone doesn’t build it, your letting them steel your dream
    • The #1 indicator that your business isn’t growing is your CD’s per week
    • It’s easier to get someone on the CD of the week after they’ve attended an open meeting
    • Specific Intent with night Owl; to get them on the CD of the week. What’s more basic then getting them started on the CD of the week. “Man! There’s 100 other opens going on, right now!”
    • “I know every single Platinum’s system count probably better than they do”~Orrin Woodward
    • Every Wednesday after the open meeting are you graphing your system count?
    • Every dud knows a stud
    • Action and numbers; the number of CDs you listen to
    • The results we have in life are based on the information we have learned. To change the results, increase the information you learn, and the PC’s have the correct information
    Q. Do you think Joan Kroc bought hamburgers at Burger King? –NO!- McDonalds.
    Q. Do you think Mrs. Wal-Mart should shop at Zellers? – NO!- Wal-Mart.
    • 12 months listening to 1 CD per day = Professional
    24 months listening to 1 CD per day = Expert
    • How the money works? A timeless principle. You + Change + Constant Action = $
    • “If you don’t listen to a CD I definitely do not want to work with you”
    • We get paid on how well we bridge the new person to information
    • Our business is only as strong as the number of people that are listening
    • OPEN MEETINGS= HOPE! It’s all about hope to the brand new person.
    • If you’re doing an open people are putting their prospects in your hands. It’s all about trust. You better be giving it your best!
    • OPEN MEETINGS are the main thing! They’re the hinge pins that hold it all together.
    Opens is our office. Opens’ plan them into your calendar.
    • Tell people, “You know you’ll need a babysitter a head of time, if you have kids”.
    • Opens’ are the first opportunity to get your team around your up line’s 5% thinking.
    • My first goal is to get my new person to the open meeting.

    GET NEW PROSPECTS TO THE OPENS (Hotel/house opportunity meetings), GET NEW MEMBERS ON SYSTEM (CDs/Books), AND GET THEM TO A LOCAL SEMINAR WHICH SELLS THEM ON THE MAJOR. The bottom line is its a pipeline of residual cash flow to the top leaders is what LIFE IS ALL ABOUT.

  33. brent hansen permalink
    October 12, 2011 7:04 pm

    K. Crukley, please stop, no more, I can’t take it. I can’t tell if I am gonna cry or puke.

  34. Speak Your Truth permalink
    October 12, 2011 7:49 pm

    LOL…That is some serious..DESENSITIZING… they are masters…Straight from an old Amway Diamond … ‘work around them.. not through them and build ‘fire walls’..

    In other words YOU better gain the influence with the leaders… so that no else can or will…it is your ‘protection’ against any ‘stinkin thinkin’…that someone might have.. (in case someone figures them out or the truth of the mathematics) and decides to tell the better have the influence with your downline leaders to prevent them from blowing out or raiding entire legs…

    That… IS ONLY.. for the ‘top guys’ to do…thousands of double standards..I think I will puke now… nothing new under the sun!…the vey last line… THEE ‘bottom line’.. says it all!

  35. Speak Your Truth permalink
    October 12, 2011 7:51 pm

    Thanks K Crukley for taking the time to show the typical messages and thought reform in action.. 🙂

  36. Speak Your Truth permalink
    October 12, 2011 7:56 pm

    New People don’t realize they will hear that same rhetoric a million times and then they will find themselves repeating the same…it is simon says..repeat after ALL the tools like I did etc…hence, where the ‘proven dublication’ comes in… the thought like majic.

  37. switch permalink
    October 12, 2011 9:37 pm

    I appreciate that Speak. I get a “high” out of people like yourself building their trust back up, taking no shit from anyone, and standing up for what happened in your case. Interesting how things pan out.

    What floors me is how someone can have the mindset of everyone else lying on the couch, flat on their ass, and doing nothing in this world…really? What gives that piece of $hit the right to call out everyone and imply that everyone else but team/life does nothing in this world? (Sounds more like someone didn’t get as much as they were hoping for on payday from team. No?) Does that person honestly know what charities we give to each year? What about setting up scholarships? What about donating to the local homeless shelter?

    So, they mean to tell me I’m this “something for nothing” that’s not making a difference and just this piece of shit that sits around hoping that the next guy is going to fix things? Well done, teamers!

    This is one of the many reasons why I said sayonara a LONG time ago. 😀

  38. October 13, 2011 5:42 am

    I was told that our RT was making somewhere around $500k right now…hmmm

  39. Burned Out With MV permalink
    October 13, 2011 6:46 am

    So I’m sure all of the the 1099’s proving this were flashed on the screen …… NOT

  40. Speak Your Truth permalink
    October 13, 2011 8:14 am

    $500k….yea right.. in their ‘dreams’…lol. mattjer22…as burned out says..ask them to ‘prove it’..with their 1099’s…it never ceases to amaze me what they spout out and just expect others to blindly… ‘believe’… and are NEVER willing to put their money where there mouth is and ‘Prove it!’

  41. K. Crukley permalink
    October 13, 2011 10:14 am

    RE: mattjer22


  42. Speak Your Truth permalink
    October 13, 2011 10:36 am


    Ain’t it great…well you know we could sell out and go ‘all in’ because ‘Anybody can become Somebodies’…lol…but ONLY IF…you are willing to give up the necessity of having a PHONE and are willing to collect cans and join the LIEF program…where all.. become somebodies.. I am still perplexed on how all our ancestors dating clear back 2000 years ago when ‘history’ reveals the true way to live…they all must have been wandering… just waiting…for the Team to show up to help them so they wouldn’t become ‘somethings for nothings;and tell them how to live…..Now… How on God’s green earth… did they LIVE… without them? 🙂

  43. brent hansen permalink
    October 13, 2011 2:42 pm

    Mattjer22, I find it interesting at best how many like to spout off at how much money they are making, when that really doesn’t mean a thing. I have thrown the “back office” challenge out to no less than a dozen heavy hitters in the industry, and until now, not one has taken me up on the offer, nor the $1,000 attached to the offer.

    What is the “back office” challenge? Its simple anyone who says they are making money in MLM, and is willing to show their back office through documented screen shots, and can prove that more than 5% of their team is able to cover autoship, will receive a $1,000 cash.

    Michael, myself, and another friend have shot the offer at many people, and for some strange reason, they always disappear. Interesting thing is, prior to giving them the offer, they are so willing to defend the viability of their model. The after the offer, they shut up and go away.

    It is the perfect comeback for any loudmouth out there, and its a pretty safe bet, I have only seen 1 or 2 plans that can bring 5% into profit at best.

  44. October 13, 2011 5:41 pm

    K.C – I prolly shouldn’t say because my best friend is still in the biz, and I’m sure these people follow this blog. I will say though, my RT was on stage this past major and was in the running for triple crown or something like that…can’t remember. I will say, however, that they were incredibly nice people and I enjoyed the little time I had around them. Although, after a while, I would only get to spend time with them if I made PP or some other goal. “Leverage” he’d tell me, “everything is about leverage”. I even remember at the time when I was told that it seemed kind of weird. I thought, “someone might mistake that thinking as ‘manipulation'”. Nevertheless, I just shoved the thought out of my mind and moved on.
    When I first got in, I was told my RT was making around $300k/yr, but within a couple of months I was hearing things like, “his rank is making $500k a year”, a clear implication that he was making that much. I figured so since he had a huge house and some land and was “job free”.

    There’s no doubt in my mind that these are some sincere people who I dealt with, and that’s been the one thing that made it hard to let it go. The funny thing is, once my upline caught wind that I was prolly getting out, I haven’t heard from them since. “We are friends first, then business partners” I’d hear. Guess the “friendship” part went with the “business part”. Hmmm….

  45. Burned Out With MV permalink
    October 14, 2011 3:44 am

    That is how it works in MLM, you have all the “friends” money can buy as long as it’s your money going into their pockets.

  46. Speak Your Truth permalink
    October 14, 2011 8:46 am


    Good one…I am shocked that someone wouldn’t take you all up on that one! After all a grand would almost purchase a 12 case order… and or potentially pay for a single person’s trip and tools to the major ..with a simple click of a button….hmmm…LHOL

  47. No Team For Me permalink
    October 14, 2011 9:21 pm

    Did everyone hear the price of the monthly seminars just went up to $35 in advance and $40 at the door? And they literally have one every single month now – even the months of the majors.

  48. No Team For Me permalink
    October 14, 2011 9:21 pm

    I remember in the early years, the price of the major functions were $40.

  49. brent hansen permalink
    October 14, 2011 10:22 pm

    NTFM, gotta adjust for the value of the dollar dropping right? Wow, where can I sign up, I will take 10 tickets to get started!

  50. outside looking in permalink
    October 15, 2011 4:19 am

    No Team – the seminars have been reduced to 8 per year, and the majors to 3 per year. Also s.o.t tickets are still $25.

  51. switch permalink
    October 15, 2011 5:23 am

    Unbelievable on the major tickets….. hey, somehow they do have to afford that extra bananna boat in Maui, ya know.



  52. switch permalink
    October 15, 2011 5:27 am


  53. switch permalink
    October 15, 2011 5:30 am

    damn, smilies aren’t working….just think of one vomitting, and one just about to loose his OREOS!!!!!

    Later,….gonna go spend time with my kids today.

  54. Speak Your Truth permalink
    October 15, 2011 11:47 am

    outside looking in~

    Be more specific…is the tickets right now $25 and only 3 Majors (as if that isn’t enough) to create massive negative cash flow for ALL… except for the PC… they rather rake it in off of these ‘biggest pay days’…of course…they are exempt from any losses… and will they remain at that SAME price and amount of majors.. after 11/1/11..or are you just telling part of the ‘story’?

    BTW~ Do you think the PC pay for a $125 ticket.. 3 or 4 times per year and $25 to $30 dollars per month.. or pay for the ‘opens’ they attend… or do they ‘get in FREE’…lol.. Oh that’s right they schedule themselves to speak..they GET PAID to go and even if they don’t speak they get in free! They refuse to go negative cash flow…they have designed that for the 99% suckers… to pay for them… How about for how many years.. at least 4.. the PC said they ‘paid’ their ‘dues’ and didn’t need to show up to the opens…sat home and collected ‘their’ residual income.. with their families, while everyone else continued to give them that luxury? Earn it? What happens when someone else wants to cash in on that promise of passive, residual..(lies).. for their family…take a sabatical…they get VOTED OUT and their earned income stripped away forever! Did you know that is what you signed up for?

    They have done the ’12 month’ seminars numerous times and then changed it..back and forth…blowing in the wind… as with their supposed ethics and principles…obviously when they want to create MORE profits they just add the seminars in the same months as majors…NO other reason…just greed.

  55. outside looking in permalink
    October 15, 2011 12:54 pm

    Speak – the info I got is starting the first of the year there will be 8 seminars and 3 majors a year. Ticket cost will be $35 advance, $40 at the door, and s.o.t. will stay at $25 for the seminars. I was told the content of the seminars will be expanded to include a LIFE talk with two 20 min. breaks. That’s all I know.

  56. Speak Your Truth permalink
    October 15, 2011 1:07 pm

    Thanks…$35 dollars in I suspected…it doesn’t ‘cost’ them a red cent more to be advanced vs ‘auto shipped’ or more exspense for them @ the door for that matter…but yet they will jack the ticket up for it all.. just auto ship…is Guaranteed… money in the PC ‘pockets’…what a shame.

    Outside looking in..are you still involved and all in? Thanks for answering.

  57. outside looking in permalink
    October 15, 2011 1:15 pm

    Speak – I’m still on the fence.

  58. Speak Your Truth permalink
    October 15, 2011 2:11 pm

    Thanks for your honesty….not sure how that could be possible ….but I can appreciate the honesty..none the less.. and if there is one thing I despise… it is someone or group of someones… thinking for others….group think or individual…it is what cults do…us or them.

    What is the deal maker or breaker for you that is going to push you off the fence? :

  59. outside looking in permalink
    October 15, 2011 4:20 pm

    I don’t know. One side is far right, the other is far left. Somewhere in the middle must be the truth.

  60. Speak Your Truth permalink
    October 15, 2011 4:33 pm

    Really? Who’s the ‘far left’ and who is the ‘far right’?

  61. brent hansen permalink
    October 15, 2011 4:46 pm

    Outside Looking In, you are on the fence? Which fence are you referring to? Wow!

  62. Speak Your Truth permalink
    October 15, 2011 4:58 pm

    outside looking in~

    I went back and read some of you comments…they amount to nothing similiar just reminds me of a gnat…here is a comment you made

    outside looking in on (September 17, 2011 8:04 pm)

    “Mr. Hansen, apparently you haven’t seen the LIFE comp plan yet.”

    Here was the response from ‘Mr Hasen’…that you failed to even respond to, you can read the full comment under QRUSH:

    So @outside looking in, if you have any further light and knowledge to shed on the topic please email me at, and if I am incorrect on my calculations, or hasty on my judgement, I will type an apology here on this blog and refrain from further discussion about the LIFE comp plan. Documentation beats small talk any day of the week. Please provide me with such.

    He is obviously implying he has seen the comp plan but does Not respond to your comments Brent..perhaps he did email you and we all just don’t know about it..

    I think outside looking in…likes to bait his hook…not falling for the ‘fence sitter’…pretty sure what side he is on..LOL

  63. Speak Your Truth permalink
    October 15, 2011 5:04 pm

    Sorry for the typo your last name.

    Outside looking in..Let us know why you bother coming here..if I am wrong and you aren’t playing games…then I will apologize now.. but my gut tells me otherwise?

  64. Speak Your Truth permalink
    October 15, 2011 5:38 pm

    Brent..btw…I haven’t found the comment that I mentioned… yet but it went something like this 2 +2=5 and went into a long speal on ‘perspective’…if I am remembering right…lol..What they would consider a green light to spin everything….the lengths to which people will go try and hold onto a piece of paper back they have raked off the backs of so many…maybe you will come across it before I do..It will be fun read and am sure you will enjoy it.. lol

  65. outside looking in permalink
    October 15, 2011 6:33 pm

    Speak – I’m not sure if your comments even deserve a response but, I simply answered your questions honestly and suddenly I’m attacked and called a “gnat”? really!? I came here to learn, so I read and ask questions to find answers. I didn’t know this was an exclusive club.

  66. brent hansen permalink
    October 15, 2011 6:37 pm

    Speak, I will look for it as well, sounds like MLM math to me. Mathematics are not subjective, no matter how you twist it, spin it, roll it and smoke it, the math will kick your butt everytime. Unless of course you only care about earning money yourself. If you are a self-centered egomaniac who does not care if you take money from your friends, then none of what I post matters. But, if you joined MLM because you bought into the “helping others” spill, the “B” quadrant spill, or the “free enterprise” spill, then perhaps knowing and understanding the TRUTH about the comp plans will help set you free.

    Forget all the mitigating factors, and focus purely on the math. Everyone’s opinion about so and so, or such and such is just that, an opinion, we all have em, and we usually disagree with each other. But from the standpoint of pure business mathematics, ROI, or success probabilities, you CANNOT win if you want to play this game. Every company skirts the law just enough to keep their doors open, and all the heavy hitters know the end game before they even begin.

    Either Dr. Taylor’s gambling vs mlm study is correct, or it is blatantly false, which one is it? And if you knew and understood, would you still be on the “fence” ?

  67. Speak Your Truth permalink
    October 15, 2011 7:06 pm

    outside looking in~

    I apologize if I have offended you.

    It seems real odd to me that you wouldn’t reply after questioning Brent on the comp plan and ….then you never responded with any reason or to correct what you thought he wasn’t correct on. Thought it to be real peculiar that you wouldn’t respond to his comments.

    I also find it extremely odd how you say you are a fence sitter…after reading all the facts.. you still can’t decide? And yet you give no explanation other than the truth is somewhere in the middle? How long have you been coming here and have you read the entire site? What is your story?

    No one is obviously stopping you from coming and going..Amthrax allows all comments from everyone..unlike Orrin.. yes I recognized your sarcasm. So feel free to learn all you want but I find that real peculiar also. And if you are ‘still on the fence’ what does that mean exactly. Are you on the team or not on the team and if you are for how long and are you attending seminars, majors, etc and on Cd of the week?

    It appears you say as little as possible..and almost as if playing the devils advocate.

    Looking forward to learning more about you.

  68. Speak Your Truth permalink
    October 15, 2011 7:13 pm

    I do agree the mathematics cannot be argued. Funny thing is you would thing have hundreds of not thousands of seminars there hasn’t been a 1 that any such thing was ever taught. NOT one piece of information that would ‘help’ all those ‘independant’ business OWNERS understand a lick about the ROI! It is as you have said… tells the most about the TRUE integrity, character, honesty and christianity… they spout soooo much it is sickening.

  69. das permalink
    October 15, 2011 7:16 pm

    I think this is the MLM math you guys are talking about.

    “We Aren’t Doctors, Financial Planners, or Counselers… We Just Pretend To Be Them On Stage”

  70. Speak Your Truth permalink
    October 15, 2011 7:24 pm

    Thanks a bunch das…You found it!…if the ‘other guy’ isn’t Orrin…then it is a PC clone.

  71. das permalink
    October 15, 2011 7:25 pm

    Here is what the other guy said.

    “The Other Guy PERMALINK
    June 24, 2011 12:23 pm
    Alright! Now we may talk like gentleman! (unless one of you is a lady, civilized people)
    Ok, 1st things 1st: As far as the actual financials, I do not have that detailed out. I do know that the Team pays out to its directors 64% of its revenue! This means that only 36% of the money coming in actually goes to the cost of paying for the Office and their expenses. What those exact dollar amounts are, I don’t quite know. I was never given that info.
    BUT, let’s talk about perception, Ok so you said 2+2=4. That is a fact. However, it is a free county, so someone is free to believe that 2+2=5! If that person had the assumption that 2+2=5, then it doesn’t matter ANY other mathematical equation we presented for that person, they would ALWAYS draw the wrong conclusion. Facts aren’t always cut and dry. For example, I read a book called the “Go Giver” where it teaches people that giving isn’t necessarily better than receiving, but it is a natural occurring. If You don’t receive, then you rob someone else from giving. BUT, some people believe that it is 100% better to give than to receive, which is like saying, “What’s better for your body, to breathe in, or breathe out?” Well, the answer to you and me is obvious! They are both equally important. Does this make sense?
    WIth that being said, lets address the IDS briefly. But let me preface it with a scenario:
    Building depth on the Team, is all a numbers game. There are 2 sides to your business. (right leg and left leg) think of each leg as a store. Your goal is to drive traffic into each store. The first leg (generally speaking) is the apprentice leg, where you’ll learn how to actually drive people in. Once you learn that set of skills, and gain some proficiency in learning the system, then you start your second leg and take what you learned in your apprenticship leg, and apply. This is what makes it performance based. Anyone can get in and do no work and let their upline or down line build their biz for them and collect $ if it was just one leg. Those ARE illegal business, because its a sign up game “who ever gets in FIRST gets the most money” if you see these things…RUN. What makes it an even playing field, is this concept of a 2nd organization.
    Now lets say you get in, and in 1 day you get 100 people (100 people in 24 hours!) Now, because of that, you are entered into the 1% of the people making some money. However, it is a numbers game…so you have the 99 others moving in that direction. So lets say in the very next day (within another 24 hours) I have ALL 100 people, a 100 people each! WOW, that would be some EXPLOSIVE GROWTH! However, that STILL would only be 1% of the people making it.
    See, the question isn’t “what’s the percent of people making it?” because its a numbers growth business. The question is, how many people are able to jump into that 1%, and how legit is it, and how fast can I do that?
    I hope that makes sense.
    But see, with this new understanding of how the business works, I hope that can bring some insight to what I meant by “Facts are pesky little things.”
    I am very encouraged that you three who have responded are willing to discuss feelings and experience (even though you and/or people you know got burned) under a cool tongue. Thank you sincerely!
    I am being forced out of my expo that I am sitting at, so I must adjourn.
    Please comment and keep asking great questions! “Let us reason together” Is 1:18
    God Bless!”

  72. brent hansen permalink
    October 15, 2011 7:29 pm

    Yeah, das thats it, those are the “math” guys. Actually its ironic in two recent conversations with two seperate “leaders” in the Life business, their response under pinpoint questioning was the same. They simply do not understand the structure they are involved in, but just know it works, and they are going to change the industry.

    Here is two guys who are in the top echelon of Life leadership, and they do not even understand, nor care to understand the ratios of their particular model. They can’t do math because they don’t understand it.

    Speak, they could never teach the truth from stage because the room would empty in a heartbeat. Kind of humorous knowing that they believe that they “lead people to truth” isn’t it?

  73. das permalink
    October 15, 2011 7:34 pm

    “Facts are pesky little things.”

    Well, I have enough facts about the comp plan that I won’t be taking or taken advantage of another friend. Thanks Brent!

  74. brent hansen permalink
    October 15, 2011 7:42 pm

    Das, that is hysterical! This is the general consensus among all people who are focused on their own success, and quoting this person is a perfect example of the attitude of the multitude in this sham of an industry, and I quote.

    “See, the question isn’t “what’s the percent of people making it?” because its a numbers growth business. The question is, how many people are able to jump into that 1%, and how legit is it, and how fast can I do that?”

    To answer this mental midgets question, approximately 1% are able to jump into the 1%. What kind of question is that? And since when did the “FACTS” not become the facts? Try jumping off a bridge, and see if you can defy the fact that gravity is gonna make you fall like a rock. The “facts” referred to in this post are actually called LAWS. And like it or not these “laws” were set up at the foundation of this planet, and whether you believe in gravity or not, you cannot dispute the fact that it exists, nor the fact that you are subject to it.

    So you can spin and twist all you like, but we all know that another law is the law of the harvest, and fools like this guy may not harvest immediately, but once the seed is planted, the harvest is inevitable.

  75. Speak Your Truth permalink
    October 15, 2011 7:57 pm

    🙂 I love the ‘try jumping off the bridge!’ lmao!!! Facts aren’t always cut and dry…you know…

  76. Speak Your Truth permalink
    October 15, 2011 8:12 pm

    But…but…I thought Orrin was a numbers guy…Also…they have NO problem at all getting anyone in from the MV corp.Dallin himself most of the time or why not get the guy who came up with the comp plan and IDS to …’lead all those people to the truth’.. Geez..I am so disappointed the genius never figured that out. Perhaps they will read this and CHANGE

    Also….without a doubt Orrin came up with ‘the teams’ profit-sharing ‘secret formula’ who else better to tell the whole story…and why doesn’t he lead them to the truth and teach exactly how that works.. He certainly has a least 15 different venues he could teach it in and it should be taught in their ‘webcasts’ live…every Tuesday night..

    I know all my questions are in vain…they never will…because as you said…there wouldn’t be ANYONE left! No one else to deceive and collect from…

  77. brent hansen permalink
    October 15, 2011 8:44 pm

    Outside looking in, oh how I wish the truth was somewhere in the middle. I wish that 50% of what we were led to believe is true. The problem is this. The training we all receive through affiliation with these systems, is merely a lie wrapped in the skin of truth. Every principle taught, every quote quoted, every story told, and every ideal explained is truth. The problem is it is just not applicable to the MLM world.

    There is a huge difference between mathematics and statistics. We often hear people ranting about moving from the left side of the quadrant to the right, the five percent and the ninety-five percent. If what Kiyosaki teaches is true, then MLM is in direct contradiction to his theory that we all can reach the 5%. Failure in mathematical differs from failure in traditional business, because failure in MLM is caused by the compensation plan that is supposed to set you free. In traditional business, you may fail for a multitude of reasons, but not one of them is mathematical. Business is hard enough without having the compensation structure work against you.

    What would happen if you went to your job, where there are 100 people employed, and your boss said that only 4.75% of the 100 would receive a paycheck, and the rest would have to pay to work there. And furthermore, some of the ones who had to pay to work there would lose their cars, homes, and marriages in the process. If 4.75% was the absolute best your employeer could offer, and that was it, what could you do to change the math? The answer is simple, nothing. Now you may ask how this is different between mlm, and any other business? That is a simple answer as well. If you fail in small business, it usually affects you, your family, maybe a partner and the bank. If and when you fail in mlm it affects every relationship you have brought into the “opportunity”. Why you ask? Because your business is built by leveraging those relationships. Those people are brought in under the guise of a great opportunity, but there is no great opportunity.

    How would your 10 friend feel if you brought them all to your home and asked them to join you in business, but then you let the cat out of the bag and told them that not even one of them would be mathematically able to pay for his autoship? Do you really think they would join?

    Outside, I could give you hundreds of examples, tell you stories until I am blue in the face, rant and rave like a lunatic, but the bottom line is this; you have to make up your own mind for yourself. And when and if you do make up your mind which side of the fence you are on, you better gather evidence to support that decision, because unlike many of us, you are not going at this blind. You have been taught the truth here in the pages of this blog, and to deny that, would be as my example earlier to try and deny gravity. You simply cannot build anything long term and sustainable when it means hurting other people. It simply violates every law and principle being taught to you from your “system”.

    I am here to help if I can in any way. Thanks!

  78. Speak Your Truth permalink
    October 15, 2011 8:44 pm

    There are no excuses…if they truly cared and it was viable business..Orrin would be totally transparent… there would be no need totally blow it off.

    I did have a question for anyone who knows…I believe someone on here had mentioned that they were going to have their own IDS and their comp plan was going to be available …anyone seen or heard about it?

  79. Speak Your Truth permalink
    October 15, 2011 8:45 pm

    I meant it was said it was going to be published on the team website.

  80. das permalink
    October 15, 2011 9:26 pm

    I wanted what my friend had with Team, and I did everything he said he did to get there. He was job optional in 2-3 years with Team. Was he lucky or was I simply not good enough? Or was the comp plan stacked against me? I know the answer now.

    I lost $30,000 in 2 years trying to make it on Team. That is nothing compared to what I lost with my grown kids that I signed up in the business. I lost their respect. I can still hear my oldest son’s words…”you of all people dad!”. Trust me, that hurts even today, 4 years later.

  81. brent hansen permalink
    October 16, 2011 1:20 am

    Speak, there will be no IDS until they have time to compile data. They need to have at least 6 months to a year to give them the raw numbers they need to create the document. My guess is there will be no IDS because that would be damning. The IDS that MV put out this year was rearranged, and manipulated, to soften the reality. Previous years were horrible for their image, and I believe that the IDS they created did more damage for them than good.

  82. brent hansen permalink
    October 16, 2011 1:39 am

    das, its your fault, you didn’t buy, or listen to the proper cds, and you probably weren’t “plugged in” to the system the way you should have been. Baaaaahhhhahaha!! Don’t mean to laugh at your loss, but I racked up probably 250-300K dollars worth of losses pursuing my “dream”. Crazy thing is, I knew something was wrong back when I was in, but believed I could change the establishment internally. I should have walked away years before I did, I was a major fool.

    Sorry to hear about your children, my kids were grew up during my time in the business. They all sacrificed greatly due to the stupid decisions made by dear old dad, so I can empathize with your situation.

    Once an initial organization is built, for others to move forward becomes very difficult. Timing and positioning have so much to do with a persons ability to bring in enough people to become “job optional”. Even when they do reach that status, it is a merry go round because their business never can self sustain. The B business they talk about is ever elusive because they are constantly replacing their team. With their model now, if I had to guess what will happen, I would say they will fall right in line with the “break even” that MV discloses in their ids. I would think that somewhere around .5% will be able to earn enough to cover their subscription and turn any profit at all, with a even smaller number able to quit their jobs. How would you feel if you knew the model you created required 99% plus to lose money? What could possibly be running through the minds of the creators of the comp. plan? It would be easier to do it right, than to do it how it is being done now.

  83. das permalink
    October 16, 2011 5:43 am

    No problem about laughing Brent, I hope some day I will be able to laugh about it too. Maybe when Orrin and Chris sign a couple of cases of their “best selling” book I have out in the garage. Maybe those books will have value then? Dang, I might be sitting on a gold mine! (if they go to prison for perjury) 🙂

    Do you think Jim Jones of the Peoples Temple told his new prospects up front that they would all eventually commit suicide by drinking cyanide-laced grape flavored drink and then be transported to a new planet to live in bliss forever? I mean, how did this happen? It was as you stated, “lies wrapped in the skin of truth”, they were deceived by a friend they trusted, as was I.

    Being here telling my story isn’t like drinking poison hoping the other person dies. It’s to warn others to not drink the kool-aid.

    I don’t hate Orrin, Chris, the Team, or the leadership training that they sell. What I hate is all the lies that I was told. Give me the truth up front and if I want what you have I’ll buy in.

    And then “the other guy” using scripture: “Please comment and keep asking great questions! “Let us reason together” Is 1:18
    God Bless!”

    Reminds me of the serpent talking with Eve in the Garden of Eden.

    The bottom line, a person who knows that 99 of their friends that they sign up will have to fail for 1 to make money is a very selfish person. I would not have done that had I known.

  84. brent hansen permalink
    October 16, 2011 7:56 am

    There is one thing wrong with the scripture he quoted and that is his loose usage of the word “reason”. Reason to him means being nice enough to hear and understand his point of view, and the real definition is this.

    “Reason is a term that refers to the capacity human beings have to make sense of things, to establish and verify facts, and to change or justify practices, institutions and beliefs.”

    It is hard to “reason” with someone who when presented with the FACTS is still unreasonable. Just like Outside, does he want to reason?

  85. Speak Your Truth permalink
    October 16, 2011 9:44 am


    I am sorry to hear about your pain and suffering..we and a million others are with you. You are Not alone..for sure. I have a lot more compassion and won’t be as insensitive and cruel as Brent…and laugh because I don’t find it funny at all.

    Geez…Brent you act just like the rest of them teamers..could you at ‘least fake it til you make it’ and pretend you have a heart for just a moment… but what could one expect from a Choleric .. who is a mathematician? We already know you are all about the math.. Sorry, and couldn’t help myself with the rhetoric, I had to raz ya…lol

    In all serious, these losses, pain and suffering are real, and have damaged millions of people, since the beginning of this beautiful industry they like to clump direct selling and multilevel marketing as one in the same.. and if you try and deny the pain and suffering ….denial never helps anyone.. only prolongs the healing. It is a process….called the grieving process..

    It definitely hits home in people’s lives and creates many regrets especially the lost time with family and children the financial loss is the least. It is as with all pain and suffering it takes time. Everyone could quickly walk away from the financial loss but the emotional, mental, and spiritual, loss and damage takes a much bigger and longer toll. The beauty of it all..or silver lining…at least what I any tragedy..leads to more compassion for others and in a lot of cases..will lead you to your real purpose. I hope to write a book someday and this travesty of a business…along with the pain and suffering will most likely help me accomplish that.. 🙂


    That makes sense but they pre-launched at the end of July so that means they will have 3 months in and we should be seeing that IDS around January or Feb….lol. We also know they preach transparency…so we can take their word to the bank..right? NOT. I also agree on the scripture and is yet…just another example of how they twist it for their agenda.

    And as they love to quote..God first…all else need data. 🙂

  86. Mike Collins permalink
    October 16, 2011 10:03 am

    I have just a couple of questions for Outside: Are you making enough money to cover your monthly commitment yet? If yes, how many others on your team are making ANY money at all?

    Answer those two questions for yourself and that should be enough to push you “off the fence”

    There is a ton of information on this site and IF you will read it and understand it with an open mind (which shouldn’t be hard to do since you are on the fence-I think being on the fence implies you are searching for truth) then you will KNOW the TRUTH.

    You see, this is not about a “far left” or “far right” It is either RIGHT or WRONG…..BLACK or WHITE. So, my advice to you is….answer those two questions along with what you have learned here (I absolutely LOVE this site. You cannot POSSIBLY make this stuff up) then make your decision. All it requires is some critical thinking and a willingness to make a decision based on the preponderance of evidence as YOU see it.

    GET OFF THE FENCE! Whatever side you want to get off on….then live with your decision.

  87. Speak Your Truth permalink
    October 16, 2011 10:17 am


    I have a story for you that really hit my heart, was a reality check and proves how devastating the vicious cycle of ‘chasing the elusive wealth.’ It is about our loved ones who decided not to join us because they were the smart ones. It is how wrapped up in this lie we become and neglect others because those relationships we once had ‘outside’.. that we let go to the wayside…that the performance based cult.. indoctrination and lies gets you to believe.

    I recently attended a very close near and dear family member of mine..funeral..and a great friend and old boss of mine drove and hour to come to it. Someone I hadn’t seen in at least 10 years and hadn’t talked to her in about 5 years. We were trying to catch up, which was nearly impossible considering the circumstances…but when I walked her to her car.. She asked me what happened and how could we loose touch and she began to cry. Then the most hurtful question came…silence…and then it came…Was it that business you were in that caused us to loose touch?…It was like time stood know when truth is told and you feel like you are going to be crushed…it only lasted for seconds but seemed like an eternity.

    I had to admit to her..the truth… in her question..because in my heart that truth could not be denied. I watched her drive was devasting to realize someone who cared so much about our friendship..that I had somehow thought I couldn’t find the time and neglected…how painful it was.. I never want to experience that again. It made me reflect on all my loved ones, parents, children, and friends that we must have hurt and how silently they knew what caused it.

  88. brent hansen permalink
    October 16, 2011 10:20 am

    Choleric? What makes you think that? hahahahaha……

  89. das permalink
    October 16, 2011 10:27 am

    I know a Choleric when I see one too Brent, lmao!

  90. das permalink
    October 16, 2011 10:52 am

    Choleric with a dash of melancoly here.

    SYT…Thanks, and yes, I have had those same reality checks. The latest was just last week when I was asked almost the same question that was asked of you.

    Team members can refuse to believe the truth about the facts because they believe and have faith in their Leader. The power is in the COMMUNITY and that is what binds them and makes them strong. The sad thing is the followers are in trouble because when the leader(who is only human) changes course the true believers do as told, even when it goes against everything they know is right.

    Would it not make sense that 1 of the 900 people that died in Guyana would have spoke up and said, “hey, this mass suicide thing just doesn’t seem quite right. Maybe we should re-think this?”.

    Get their heart and emotions first, right Orrin?

  91. Speak Your Truth permalink
    October 16, 2011 11:20 am


    Yes off the charts with choleric and equally amount of…but what I have found those who are the toughest on the outside..have the biggest hearts on the inside. 🙂

    You have nailed it with the Jim Jones. How tragic..and it defies all logic… and is exactly as you said… they have to use manipulation of the emotions…and is exactly why I speak of the thought reform/mind control also…because people can talk it til there blue in the face on how it is everyone’s ‘choice’ one holds a ‘gun to your head’…there isn’t a cult leader that does that…they don’t have to…it is the ‘power’ of thought reform. It is a pre-packaged collection of specfic ideas and words, along with peer pressure… repeated over and over and over..It IS how they break you down.

    It’s kinda like 2+2 =5…maybe Brent can

    In other words.. and webelieved spoke of a study…where there is a group of people in a room where there is 5 dots on the floor and everyone knows this to be true but the group constistantly tells the ‘new’ recruit there is 6 and because of the pressure of everyone else repeating it..finally the ‘new’ one begins to see 6 and agrees. Very sick and with the case of the people’s temple and Jim Jones…devastating. Now tell all those surviors of their lost loved ones…that mind control doesn’t have tremendous and devastating results….or to buck up and get over it.

  92. Speak Your Truth permalink
    October 16, 2011 11:31 am

    Oh and might I add the peer-pressure is the ‘Power of the Community.’

  93. brent hansen permalink
    October 16, 2011 11:41 am

    Interesting reality Speak when you said,

    ” they have to use manipulation of the emotions…and is exactly why I speak of the thought reform/mind control also…because people can talk it til there blue in the face on how it is everyone’s ‘choice’ one holds a ‘gun to your head’…there isn’t a cult leader that does that…they don’t have to…it is the ‘power’ of thought reform. It is a pre-packaged collection of specfic ideas and words, along with peer pressure… repeated over and over and over..It IS how they break you down.”

    The interesting thing is, we see this happening in our society right now throughout the media. The media wants us to think a certain way about Occupy Wall Street, particular presidential candidates, foreign policy, etc. etc.. So, typical thought reform is being employed through the media based on the wants and desires of the “BIG” players, and those who have a desire to gain from this though reform.

    I talk to lots of people about the current issues in our world today, and the thinking of most of them is totally messed up because they believe what they hear. I believe it draws on our basic human desires to belong to a cause or movement larger than ourselves. We either know the truth and are caught up in spreading the truth, and helping others, ie. the biblical followers of Jesus Christ, or we choose through cognitive dissonance to ignore the truth, and perpetuate the lie, ie. the Pharisees and Sadducees.

    But, the irony of it is, no amount of hype, smoke, mirrors, justification, or thought reform can make the untrue become true. Just as I stated earlier, we are subject to the law of gravity whether we like it or not. We are subject to the law of the harvest, whether we believe in it or not. Truth is not subjective and cannot be mutated in any way shape or form. That is why I like analyzing plans mathematically, math is not subjective. There is a formula for each compensation plan just as there is a formula for the law of gravity. No amount of cds, books, or thought reform can change these formulas.

    One of my goals is to present the formula in a non-disputable format. I could tell stories of all the idiots I have been affiliated with during my tenure, but that is subjective to interpretation, belief, and discussion. If someone believes there is TRUTH, then they are able to be helped. I actually had someone tell me that there is no possible way that I could know what is true, because truth is merely a matter of opinion. I am here to tell you that TRUTH is not a matter of opinion, it is not subjective, nor can it be twisted. There are laws irrevocably decreed in heaven upon which all blessings are predicated. Someone may gain through filthy lucre for a season, but in the end, it will all go away. You cannot violate the law and win, thats it period!

  94. Speak Your Truth permalink
    October 16, 2011 12:16 pm


    Very well said..that is why you have joined us because you are so logical and are challenged in the heart and just to clear up any misunderstanding…I wasn’t implying to das that you had a Big heart when I stated;

    “but what I have found those who are the toughest on the outside..have the biggest hearts on the inside.”

    That verdict is still out on you….Vogel came to 🙂 Have you cried ‘uncle’ yet? I bet the only time you show any phelmatic (sensitivity) is when you are sleeping and that is probably debatable..Okay no more picking on you.

    The media…even though there is truth..comes from those teamers

    Great Comments. 🙂

  95. Speak Your Truth permalink
    October 16, 2011 12:25 pm

    Just know I’m kidding..kinda..well I mean it this time..You really bring some great unarguable logical points even though no one challenges them…because they can’t… and do appreciate it. 🙂

  96. brent hansen permalink
    October 16, 2011 1:39 pm

    Speak, I wish you knew me personally so that I could help you understand what I am really about. But for now, this blog format will be sufficient. I am a person who is filled with weakness, just like any other human being, but have been blessed with a keen understanding (thanks to a mentor), and a burning desire to help enlighten those who are being deceived.

    My goal is to share the truth that I have discovered, tried, and proven, with as many as will hear and respond to my message, I have a higher purpose, and if that involves any of you, time will reveal that to all of us.

    Edmund Burke said, “All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing.”
    I heard that years ago, and now believe this quote more today than the day I heard it. Our country today is a perfect example, if we want to save America as we know it, we must all be willing to do something to triumph over evil. Since, I have spent 15 years in this arena, learning the truth, it would be a total waste for me to pickup a flag and move forward on some other agenda. This is where I have been placed, so here is where I labor.

  97. Speak Your Truth permalink
    October 16, 2011 2:43 pm

    Thanks for your honesty Brent and I know that is where your true heart is…it is evident..I agree and your last post was excellent…

    Doesn’t mean I won’t stop joking. 🙂

    I too agree with most all you say because we say the same things just in different language…lol..but that is okay and what true free thinking is. We have all been given special gifts and it is clear of your strenghts. AND obviously we need the mathematics…because most don’t get it or know how to explain them. Don’t get me started on your

    No seriously…I have more weakness than anyone and I do not have a whole lot of strengths to speak of but there is one thing.. I deeply care and feel the same way as you do. I know we agree and our passionate about truth. I believe it is safe to say not just me but ALL appreciate.. your time, effort and posts, and they will do just as God has intended for them to do and time will tell.

    Thanks again..sincerely. 🙂

  98. brent hansen permalink
    October 16, 2011 3:17 pm

    Ok guys, we interrupt all broadcasting to bring you this message! Just as I SUSPECTED, Orrin Woodward was sponsored by Ken Porter into Monavie, and it is confirmed here in this interview with Ken Porter.

    Why does this matter, and what does it mean? It means Orrin only had to build ONE, yes 1, UNO, ISA, a single leg when he came into MV. I will not explain how I know this for now, but trust me on this one. There was some massive positioning in the binary that occured on this transaction. That is how you hit Presidential in one month. This is how the game is played in this arena. @Michael, I am looking forward to your comments here.

    This should enrage all of you who are building 2 legs, and believing that you have a shot at the MV opportunity. This is the exact thing I tried to make you aware of on the Binary and Facebook thread This is how it is done, and it was done no differently for Team than for any other organization out there.

  99. brent hansen permalink
    October 16, 2011 3:21 pm

    Question to Ken Porter:

    “Two very successful leaders in your organisation are Brig Hart and Orrin Woodward who you personally enrolled. How where you able to sign them up? Did you knew Brig Hart and Orrin Woodward already before you enrolled them?
    “Nurture and develop relations”

    The Answer:

    “No, I did not know them personally, but as I am a firm believer in “nurturing and developing” relationships, I always know somebody who knows somebody who knows somebody. Both Brig and Orrin came through unlikely sources that made the mutual introductions. It was a result of my strategy to maintain great relations with successful people in and outside the MLM world.”

    He only forgot to communicate the part about the “break-insert” within an existing team, which gave them millions of roll up volume, and the possible $$$$ deals that occured to bring them in. The rest is history !!!! Was this disclosed to all of you? Do you know the facts?

  100. No Team For Me permalink
    October 16, 2011 9:04 pm

    The interesting thing is that Ken Porter met with Randy Haugen at Randy’s home in Utah PRIOR to Ken meeting Orrin. It was Randy who called Orrin and told Orrin of the meeting and how he believed MonaVie would be worth looking into.

    Yet somehow Orrin ends up being personally sponsored by Ken and Randy Haugen gets screwed and put in Orrin’s downline. Then many of Randy Haugen’s downline are stolen from Randy by Orrin and are now being sponsored into the new “Lie-f” business without Randy.

    How Claude & Lana Hamilton (who left Randy and sold out to the money of Orrin) can stand on stage and talk about loyalty, ethics, etc is amazing to me. These people have no shame.

    Technically, everyone in TEAM should have been downline from Randy.

  101. das permalink
    October 17, 2011 1:22 am

    The same thing happened to us on a much much smaller level, and it was the wake-up call that I needed about Orrin and the Team. I see it as a blessing today because the whole TEAM thing is one big lie told over and over until EVEN Orrin himself believes in some cause. Orrin’s only causes are wealth and power. Wake up people!

    Randy and Val are better off in my humble opinion. It doesn’t make it right, but they are better off.

    It’s only by the Grace of God that I am free of TEAM today, and I thank Him every day for that blessing!

  102. Used to be "all-in" permalink
    October 17, 2011 2:54 am

    I heard from a PC member that it was Billy Florence who had a connection with Brigg Hart and was the first one from Team to suggest looking into Mona Vie? How does this fit in the sequence of events?

  103. brent hansen permalink
    October 17, 2011 3:15 am

    Claude and Lana were never part of Randy Haugen’s organization. They were with Mark Crawford in Canada who was a crossline organization to the Haugen’s. Mark and Tammi were in Columbo Disalvatore’s group, who was downline from Don Wilson, and Dexter Yager.

  104. Speak Your Truth permalink
    October 17, 2011 12:38 pm

    No Team for Me~

    Not possible…O..cares waaayyy toooo muuch…Not a chance…He has Integrity.. is a Christian…God fearing, Honorable, and Honest, AND would never consider screwing anyone else..he thinks of others first…that is why he came up with the ‘best and most affordable’ leadership and best comp plan..No and’s..If’s..or buts about it..He made it so ONLY 95% plus would never make a profit…You know a ‘servant leader’…that’s what they call him..and besides they aren’t in it for the $$$$…they are noble missionaries..that is what I believe from the bottom of my heart and don’t be a dream stealer….LOL…NOT!

    It is just Too bad he can’t tell the truth about anything…pretty sure it would be damning…the ‘new’ LIEF comp plan…should be telling enough…

  105. K. Crukley permalink
    October 17, 2011 1:35 pm

    Mark + Tami Crawford (Calgary, AB) started in Amway and were sponsored by Tim + Bonnie Tower. Tim and Mark had a fall-out (tools) therefore Mark dealt directly with Karen + Colombo Disalvatore/Don + Nancy Wilson. Mark sponsored Angelo + Shirley Borelli (AB – Emeralds) who sponsored Dave + Sara Mansi (BC -Emeralds) who sponsored Jean + Tami Belanger (QC – Sapphires). Jean + Tami sponsored Claude + Lana Hamilton (NS-Diamonds).

    This Canadian group from Mark downline was called TRUE NORTH. Mark broke two other Diamonds, Byron + Janice Roberts (quit for health issues) and Don + Allie Lorentz (left for marital issues). ***All info is available on CD’s/Online***

    Don + Nancy – retired in 2006, then recently came out of retirement to salvage whats left
    Karen + Colombo – active in Monavie (
    Tim + Bonnie – retired/quit Amway
    Mark + Tami – active in Monavie (
    Angelo + Shirley – active in Monavie ?? (
    Dave + Sara – divorced/quit

    Jean + Tami – active in LIFE/RT’s

    When Mark + Tami left TEAM, Claude + Lana convinced Jean + Tami to stay with TEAM as a separate tool business for them. Once LIFE begins, Jean + Tami will become a new leg of Claude + Lana’s under the LIFE LOS.

    Claude + Lana – active in LIFE/PC’s
    Byron + Janice – Quit/Health reasons
    Don + Allie – divorced/quit Amway

  106. Mike Collins permalink
    October 18, 2011 7:57 pm

    It looks to me as though Monavie was built with former Amway distributors???? Did Dallin RAID amway (Brig, ORRIN, and those listed above) to build his business??? Did Dallin RAID Noni (Rob Dean) to build his business??? How many other companies have
    Dallin and company RAIDED to build their bullshit business??

    Hmmmm……come to think of it there is a company right now being built on FORMER MV distributors. Is Nick Sarnicola giving Dallin and company some of their own medicine??? LOL May they ALL get paid back in spades!!

  107. Speak Your Truth permalink
    October 19, 2011 8:14 am

    K. Crukley~

    So….What you are saying is…The Hamilton’s are going to ‘sponsor’ their UPLINE (Jean & Tami) …as their ‘downline’ the new LIEF program.. and will get a whole NEW leg……Can tell they are listening to O…that is what he did..with the Vanbuskirks….who were his original upline in Amway…Must be those special ‘ethical’ rules they follow…the ones ONLY applied to the MLM industry..Wonder how that is going to be ‘duplicated’..for all those unsuspecting…intentionally blinded and uniformed.

    I agree with Mike….May they all get paid back in spades!!

  108. das permalink
    October 19, 2011 2:39 pm

    The “other guy” that posted the new math “BUT, let’s talk about perception, Ok so you said 2+2=4. That is a fact. However, it is a free county, so someone is free to believe that 2+2=5!”

    I think this is Dan K. who worked in the office and helped set-up the seminars etc. He was a “behind the scenes” type guy that did a lot of the leg work and had knowledge of what went on with Team. I could be wrong but the writing style fits Dan’s personality. When I read that post back in August when I found this site I remember thinking it sounded a lot like him.

    The bottom line, most Liefers don’t care about the math or the comp plan once they believe in Orrin and the Team. It’s not about the money because they believe they can make a difference in this crappy world of ours where corruption abounds. What they don’t know is the corruption and greed in the very organization they are part of.

    What amazes me is that “the other guy” must have knowledge of the corruption and lies, but still backs his leader while calling himself a Christian.

    As Orrin says, “A crooked line doesn’t know it’s crooked until it compares itself with a straight line.”

  109. Speak Your Truth permalink
    October 20, 2011 7:33 pm


    I don’t believe I know who that is. I agree with you most lieFers don’t care about the math because they are taught to ignore it and Don’t ask questions.

  110. brent hansen permalink
    October 20, 2011 8:02 pm

    Speak, that’s because if the dream is big enough, the facts don’t count! Come on, don’t you know the rhetoric? Hahahaha!

  111. Speak Your Truth permalink
    October 20, 2011 8:26 pm

    Don’t you think of Dexter everytime that comes to mind…maybe you didn’t experience those unfortunate looonnngggg talks..when everyone passes out and got the messages subliminally..most except us anyway.. we were too afraid to fall asleep…not sure what would happen…scary….lol

  112. Speak Your Truth permalink
    October 20, 2011 9:13 pm

    Oh do we know the ‘rhetoric’… I or anyone else that has been around awhile could write a book on the rhetoric alone..The cult jargon…The MLM lanuage and one-liners…The indoctrinating messages…call it what you want.. it all fits…

    Go to the archieved post and read the Team Speak & Their Demands Post… Check it out..and get some laughs…you might have many mixed emotions reading it…especially feeling embarrassment..ashamed..sorry..sad…angry.. and they are ‘numbered’ no doubt you can relate to that.. although there are some duplicates..LOL.. It is an eye-opener…years of that stuff in millions of minds…do they know this…of course they do…they use to talk about this trick…when they would refer to commericals…like the Big Mac song…oscar meyer wiener, Brady Bunch, Gilligans Island..etc…all those songs repeated stick…just like their rhetoric..and if you read up on cults you will find it is a common denominator in all cults…they have their own language and meaning for certain phrases…

  113. Burned Out With MV permalink
    October 21, 2011 3:54 am

    THX SYT, now I’ll have “Sit right back and you’ll hear a tale…………” stuck in my head all day. 🙂

  114. Speak Your Truth permalink
    October 21, 2011 6:58 am

    Burned Out~

    LHOL.and I have …Oh I wish I were an Oscar Meyer hahahah .Sorry.. 🙂

  115. Happy Canuck permalink
    October 21, 2011 10:03 am

    @Webelieved – “How do they sleep at night?”
    Well…they sleep very well now that their new 12,800 square foot mansion is finished in Nova Scotia. 🙂 I’ve been there – had to go “Go-Getter” to have the privilege of being there – mind you it was in the middle of the winter and the house wasn’t completed and we all froze our balls off waiting for a free (yeah right) piece of pizza to eat standing in their garage.
    Never did get to go back once it was all finished because “Go-Getter” wasn’t good enough to get to see the inside all completed. 🙂
    And now…I just don’t care!

  116. K. Crukley permalink
    October 21, 2011 9:31 pm

    Diamonds in Randy Haugen’s Amway/Quixtar group – Terry + Ann Franks (Diamonds in Amway in 2005) originally from Ohio but I heard are now living in Pennsylvania (??) were convinced to join Claude’s group. Terry + Ann Franks were sponsored by Gary Libby, who was sponsored by Tyler Libby, who was sponsored by Don Wilson. When Don Wilson retired, Terry Franks coached with Randy. When Randy Haugen and Mark Crawford left TEAM… Claude convinced Terry to stay with TEAM as his new personal. This became another ‘tool’ leg in Claude’s organization. The same thing happened with other PC’S… convincing ‘leaders’ to leave their up lines and stay with TEAM…

    ie: Chris + Danaé Mattis.
    ie: Curtis + Debbie Spolar
    ie: Dean + Teresa Frey
    ie: Bill + Jann Newton
    ie: Jerry + Polly Harteis

    Terry + Ann Franks are NOW new ‘personals’ of Claude + Lana’s TEAM LIFE LOS…

    How do you think Claude + Tim went double and triple PC so fast??

  117. switch permalink
    October 23, 2011 8:31 am

    MMMMMMM!!!!! PIZZA! Must have been one hell of a slice.

    I’m hoping it was at least a delivery????

  118. brent hansen permalink
    October 23, 2011 8:51 am

    The only person who was even connected to Randy Haugen was Curtis Spolar, the rest were not even in his group. The fallacy I keep seeing over and over is that many of you think that the Legacy group is different than team. Legacy operates exactly the same way as Team, stop kidding yourselves.

  119. K. Crukley permalink
    October 23, 2011 4:31 pm

    B. Hansen:

    I never said the others were in Randy’s group. I said the PC’s convinced leaders to leave “their up lines” (NON UPLINE SPECIFIC)… ie: Jerry Harteis and Dean Frey came from Fred Harteis organization. I was on Billy Florence’s team and I’ve seen first hand what happened.

    No fallacy’s here, but Legacy and Team operates similar operational (Legacy is not as well structured) but Philosophically speaking, are VERY different. When Legacy joined TEAM… the Legacy Leaders KNEW they’d be taking a back seat to promoting, edifying and praising BIG ‘O’ … but they were blinded by the potential growth and numbers ‘O’ was sharing with the Legacy leaders. They overlooked the edification of ‘O’ to later realize that because they lost the praise from their downline, they lost their influence with their group. Who lost after the hype passed, the Legacy Leaders, who won? ‘O’ because he built his ‘BRAND’ (author, leadership guru, and TEAM captain).

    B. Hansen:
    Why do you think Legacy Leaders (Haugen, Crawford, Disalvatore, Smith, Goetschel, Sims) left TEAM?

  120. brent hansen permalink
    October 23, 2011 6:22 pm

    K. Crukley, I am sorry if that came across as a criticism of your statement. I have seen several posts where people seemed to be showing some sort of pity towards the Legacy group because of what happened when they joined team. There are a few reasons they left Team, the primary one being financial. Many of the Legacy Diamonds who were grandfathered in and part of the “good old boy” club (earning when not qualified to earn) were no longer qualified to receive tool compensation like they were receiving from Legacy. The reason that they left was more financial than anything else. Team had higher standards set than they could qualify for, and many of the Legacy “leaders” took a nose dive in their ill-gotten incomes they were earning from Legacy.

    There is actually way more to the story than what I am willing to post here, but believe me, these guys were doing the dirty deals while OW was still cutting teeth. They have been in the “system” game for 20-30 years longer than OW and company. And everything you read on this entire blog, all the smut, and all the dirt, is part of the Legacy m.o. as well. Please do not think that these guys are innocent, because they are not.

  121. brent hansen permalink
    October 23, 2011 6:25 pm

    Did Randy Haugen purchase the “Libby” business from Wilson, or was his “coaching” them part of the package deal?

  122. brent hansen permalink
    October 23, 2011 7:51 pm

    Webelieved, I don’t know what else to say. My last post in conversation with Vogel was “end of discussion”. I really have nothing to say about Troy’s piece, I expected more out of him, and he failed to meet expectation. To be honest with you the whole “Christian Nymphos” and “Pure Bed” thing freaked me out a bit, and I don’t know what to think. I am going to be sending Troy a private message regarding my thoughts on his whole online persona. But as far as him digging in deeper, we probably ought to throw in the towel on that expectation. I don’t see any sense in kicking against the pricks. A personal onslaught against Troy is not going to make him investigate any further. Any ideas? Feel free to email me through Amthrax if you have any insight you would like to share. Thanks!

  123. Used to be "all-in" permalink
    October 24, 2011 3:49 am

    Brent – the final LIEF compensation plan is online on the EBC…were you planning on doing an updated analysis with the final numbers?

  124. brent hansen permalink
    October 24, 2011 9:16 am

    I have no access to the EBC, please email the PDF at Thanks!

  125. Pat MacDonald permalink
    April 11, 2012 8:31 pm

    What would be good, valid questions to ask of someone inviting me to consider this business?

  126. I QUIT (and glad I did) permalink
    April 16, 2012 3:55 am

    Hey guys! I’m sitting here reading ol’ we believed tear it up as usual and I’m thinking if I were still a teamunist, I would be tempted to post under a “real” sounding name, questions that would help me identify the weak points in my plan. Then I could have answers ready for the questions or objections obtained on this site! We keep shredding them so the “leaders” need to come up with new material. I wonder how far off the mark I am…..

  127. Freedomhaha permalink
    April 16, 2012 7:19 am

    You are right on about two things. The first is that We believed is in fact tearing it up. Awesome info on here to really help people. The second is that I could see the PC using this site to fill in the “holes” in the plan. However, I think that truth wins out in the end with the information available on this site. The bottom line is that people Google the plan after they see it and get lead here. At least that is my sincere hope. It is really frustrating that TEAM/LIEf is still around.

  128. April 16, 2012 12:53 pm

    We already have the 50+ questions to ask of TEAM LIFE page on the site.

  129. October 6, 2012 9:15 pm

    This blog is almost laughable none of you have the GUTS to post your real names or you pictures. The mathematical calculations here in this post are false. As a Qualified Turbo 10 the example used in this post I can personally attest to as grossly miscalculated. I have a mathematics background. I do the math every month and it just keeps getting better and my pay continues to grow.

    I read many many great works of classical literature that I had never been able to understand prior to actually picking up books recommended by my good friend Doug Stroh. Many people have instant gratification mind sets that is fine I personally have learned that The small changes I made over time to become a better Husband, Father, Friend are worth their weight in gold.

    I was a cynical drunk and hit rock bottom in August 2008. The housing bubble pop and the loss of my Job coupled with A BAD alcohol problem knocked me down pretty hard. (End of 2008) I listened to and actually applied what they taught and it changed my life forever. I spent 2 years living in an old trailer with bad floors during that time i READ BOOK AFTER BOOK. Now I make more per year than I ever have. I have met some of my greatest friends through Team/Life. You can sling your mud from nameless faceless facades. As I have read I believe it was Mark Twain who said it best when he penned, “Anyone can criticize, condemn, or complain and most fools do.”

    Your lack of courage to show your identity, shows me you are all nothing more than common cowards.

  130. October 8, 2012 10:17 am

    @KevinDunn – There are now a number of former TEAM-members, Melanie Morgan and Raquel Peters, who have come forward with their real names. Perhaps you would like to address them directly in the comments here? Brent Hansen and Mike Collins also are posting under their real names too.

    Glad to see that you have righted your personal life.

    P.S. You do know that Mark Twain was just a pen name for Samuel Langhorne Clemens, right?

  131. No Team For Me permalink
    October 8, 2012 11:36 am

    Kevin, You do realize Orrin himself was involved in the famous QRush blog that bashed Amway/Quixtar years ago? Unfortunately, as a Turbo 10, you have not made it close enough to the inner dealings of the real people you are dealing with yet. Those who have made it to the top and/or the inside have realized the true lack of ethics of Orrin & Team – Pastor Dickie, former Team CEO Bobbie Dickie, Billy Florence, Randy Haugen, Lance Smith, Columbo DiSalvatore, John Sims, Chuck Goetschel, Tyler Libby, Gary Libby, Raquel Peters, Don & Chris Freeze, Jody Shafor, John & Melanie Morgan, Jeff & Barb Granger, and the list goes on and on and on.
    We used to be fooled like you. But then again, look at the mafia. There are people in their communities who say “but look at all the good they do. They are always giving gifts, giving money and helping others..” without realizing that they are leading a total double life behind closed doors.

    It is my personal belief that Orrin & Crew are just as dangerous as the mafia – just in a different way. My personal belief is that they have caused serious financial damage and/or damaged relationships for tens of thousands of people. They need to be stopped!

  132. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    October 8, 2012 11:46 am

    @Kevin Dunn: well, here’s one “coward” who can’t–for the sake of her grandchildren–give you her real name—otherwise, it’d be gloves off, pal. I saw an already financially broke grown child get sucked into this disrespectful organization, mouthing all of the obscenities taught to him by LIFE/Team, and to which I’ve seen corroborated on this site, i.e., he lived right up to what others were saying they were taught and for those in my shoes–as to what happened to me as the parental victim. .

    Try these mathematics on for size: if you served as a US Marine, and were successful at jobs prior to your concommitant crash of 2008, , I’m assuming that your BAD bout of alcoholism was not for years and years on end–or you wouldn’t have had the prior successes in life. Do you know what the mathematical recidivism rates are for true, long term AODA problems? Over 95%-99%, and as an ex AODA/detox supervisor myself, I never once saw someone that “BAD” (your term) be able to get through the DT’s and the early recovery phases, etc., without some type of medical intervention—for as you know, just surviving the DTs can be exceptionally dangerous to human physiology. Except for the rare person out there {who knows, you might just be that person)–to survive reading books and listening to CDs on “leadership” is not the usual cure.

    BUT, that you were able to stop drinking and stand back up and do something is to your strength and credit (no matter what the reason or helping hand)— but, predictably, to do what you did here on the Amthrax site shows your underlying belligerent personality problem in the first place. Obviously, you’ve not learned very much—for a true teacher, if they have something to teach, would come on here and correct the mathematical mistakes they believe they see. Gee, I wonder what you’d tell the FTC (Federal Trade Commission) about THEIR own analysis, i.e., that you have a greater than 96% chance of losing money in such a scheme?

    If the dregs of rancor like you are what’s in LIFE/Team, please, let me keep those who’ve escaped like Raquel Peters, Melanie Morgan, Mike Collins, Brent, etc., and all of the “nameless” rest, for I would never wish to know an utterly close-minded, rancorous loose cannon like you. Have a great day. 🙂

  133. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    October 8, 2012 2:59 pm

    LOL, Raquel! you said in 6 words what I blathered on about….EXACTLY!! What leadership revolution did the label (of non-participants or ex-members) as being “cowards” come from? Um, the same leadership phonies, one of whom suggested that those who don’t participate might soil their underpants in fear and smell of it? (slam courtesy of: Dan Hawkins, 2012–seen on facebook; might have originated on Twitter)

  134. Former Round Table permalink
    October 9, 2012 6:04 am

    Kevin Dunn, I would just like to point out to you that your “courage” may cost you dearly. If you would be so brash as to read your own Life Policies and Procedures, you will see that by merely commenting on this site you have forfeited the right to any and all earnings you or any family member may receive from Life and/or the Team. It’s likely that your upline will turn a blind eye today, but they will always retain the right to take away any income.

    Be sure, Orrin reads this blog carefully, and he has likely copied your post to save for some future time when you might inadvertantly question something he said or did. (He does not take well to criticism, or even questioning, which he perceives as criticism.)

    But not to worry, because you are not in it for the money, are you?

  135. I QUIT (and glad I did) permalink
    October 9, 2012 7:14 am

    I make sure to point out every time a liefer posts that they are violating the P & Ps. Shame on you Kevin. Did you forget that a real leader leads by example? What other rules and regulations are ok to violate in your crazy, mixed up world? Oh, I forgot… rules are for following only when its convenient. But hey, thats not a problem. I’m sure Kevin is just another drive-by, wanna-be, business leader.

  136. I QUIT (and glad I did) permalink
    October 9, 2012 7:16 am

    Be sure to check out the special this Friday on VH-1, “Liefer, one comment wonders.” It’ll be a riot!

  137. freedomhaha permalink
    October 9, 2012 8:44 am

    Kevin Dunn- Congrats on overcoming your drinking problem. Much respect! I have a simple question for you though sir: What percentage of people in your downline are making a profit?

  138. I QUIT (and glad I did) permalink
    October 9, 2012 10:18 am

    Don’t worry Raquel, I’ve been following very closely in all places anti-lief. I find it exillerating to know the “gurus” are squirming in their messed-in shorts! Damn it stinks in here!

  139. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    October 9, 2012 10:53 am

    Raquel: I think it was very kind of you to point out about trying not to fall back into the pattern of drinking if something bad happens to Kevin in the biz. To be prepared, should it begin to fall apart in the future, is certainly sound advice coming from folks like you who had the misfortune of having what you had built stolen in a heartbeat. Thank you for treating that poster in a more civil (and Christian) manner than he came out against everyone here. Hope he saves his money for retirement, too.

  140. Freedomhaha permalink
    October 9, 2012 12:05 pm

    Age- I am sure he will be retired shortly 😉

  141. No Team For Me permalink
    October 9, 2012 6:30 pm

    I could be wrong, but I’d almost be willing to bet that Kevin was another attempt at a PC or RT member at doing another anonymous post (very hypocritical, if true).
    Has anyone else noticed the pattern of all these people who happen to post with names which are so common you cannot do a search on facebook to find anyone who matches that name. And they all seem to have a common thread – they ignore all the proof of lies and deceit on this site, ignore all the stories of leaders who have quit Teamscam/Lifescam, ignore all the bankruptcies, the $3 million “loan”, etc. Yet somehow they all some story of how money isn’t everything…because of teamscam..their marraige got better, they quit drinking etc.
    I personally believe it is a bunch of BS! It sounds too much like the diversion and distraction technique a teamscam leader would use to deflect the discussion from the truth.

  142. No Team For Me permalink
    October 9, 2012 6:34 pm

    Also, if they are real people, and they do not get kicked out of teamscam/lifescam for breaking the rules, doesn’t that open the door for Raquel Peters or the Raatz’ or Morgans to file a lawsuit against teamscam by setting a precident that rules can be broken without someone’s team being taken?

    I think we need to do more research and try and track down some of these names we’ve been seeing.

    Either they are bogus names which proves Team leaders are guilty of posting anonymously (the very thing they try to attack others about), or they are not enforcing the rules uniformly and thereby open the door to some major lawsuits.

    Which one is it?

  143. freedomhaha permalink
    October 9, 2012 7:36 pm

    I wish I could get one of them to answer my question, or at least stick around and chat.

  144. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    October 10, 2012 6:49 am

    For Raquel and No Team and Freedom, or possibly anyone willing to read it (we know it’s not gonna be Mike C 🙂 —sorry Mike, waxing philosophical today, but I **AM** on your side, too):

    Most days after tuning into this site, it only takes a moment envision that I’m sitting like a bird atop a tennis net, watching the lobs go back and forth. It’s all such a dichotomy—I see the frustration of the ex-Teamers wanting to show the facts of the internal workings of what they came to abhor; I see the occasional ‘hits-and-runs’ of current Teamers (be they bogus names or not). It’s visions like this that take me back to what I originally thought: while the math reigns supreme—it does not lie–but in the end, it’s about so much more. It’s about the current iteration of “the biz” selling philosophical morality, based upon generalized group acceptance of what consitutes the moral aspects. And this is where it all turns to butter as the tigers race around the tree, latched onto each others’ tails.

    I’ve never seen an MLM before that’s quite like this one–the originator takes the history of man–from man’s highest independent thinking achievements/inventions/actions to his lowest immoral acts, especially in using a belief system that hones in and preys upon the concept of man born as evil (for that’s what Christianity’s concept of Original Sin is, and once absolved of it, one spends one’s life trying to avoid the damnation of sin–so if the Team can present as a good Christian thing, by default it will help you to do so, too) and purports to sell ideas (which are interestingly really aimed at only certain Westernized Christian cultures) as communal “moral good”—as if moral good, as they define it, will make you materially rich.

    By this dictatorial method, Orrin Woodward has single-handedly been able to subjugate his minions, his aim for material riches, and his control of flow and content of information. HE becomes the ultimate “morality police”, the “thought police”, and unfortunately, the “historian”, the “economist”, the “banker” and, of course, the “military conquerer.”, but worse: “the good ol;’ boy next door who wouldn’t harm a flea” He’s learned from his mistakes in all of the past iterations of “team” and selling renewable/consumable products–he can now elevate himself to ultimate guru because there’s nothing left to sell except: him stealing your brain in a most surreptitious manner.

    In this woven web of “be a good Christian” and “get materially rich doing it of you only work hard enough as we told you to”, he’s set it up so that if the money fails (as it must for all but the programmed few), the other will prevail because it is the Christianity aspect—he’s got members based upon the comraderie of Christian religions which is a heavy part of this “community” he’s built of non-thinkers (–and I don’t say this meanly–I say it as a loss of abstact-thinking ability as basic as common horse sense).

    Orrin has created a “win/win” situation for himself and the chosen few who’ve long since lost their critical-thinking ability. In selling dreams of unfettered wealth manipulating one’s own version of moral reality, then, of necessity, one must subjugate any independent thinking of participants–based upon where they were at in their own lives when coming into the team–to prevent them from establishing or maintaining or growing their own moral/ethical value action system that may be even slightly out of sync with the originator’s superficial one. Only most don’t realize it until the underlying financial cankers come to the surface–and with those cankers come the oozing blebs of lost family, friends, time, etc.

    Ergo: either people rebel up front or early on when exposed to “the plan”, or they come to their senses when damage has affected them. So, would any current Teamer–or should I say most current Teamers–coming on here actually be able to have a critical-thinking debate with ex-Teamers? Does anyone really believe that Orrin Woodward himself would “pooh-pooh” current Teamers from coming on here and blasting the defectors and naysayers? I doubt it—for the internet is leaving a negative legacy which I’m sure he’d like to see at least feeble attempts to counter. I look at the general “Kevin Dunn” type posters, as the scary flying monkey who’s been given a pass to do the bidding, as the Orrin of Oz pulls the strings from behind a tattered velveteen curtain in a distorted and debased Emerald City.

  145. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    October 10, 2012 6:58 am

    CLARIFICATION TO AVOID CATASTROPHE: I did NOT imply/mean that being a Christian was being a non-thinker per se. I DID mean that the way it’s used in the Team can cause the loss of critical thinking ability–even to subjugate your own prior moral code of what is right/wrong–because the Team gives out mixed messages, e.g., be kind to others, but don’t associate with cross-liners as a classic example.

  146. AlmostIn permalink
    October 10, 2012 7:39 am

    @Age Wow, my sentiments exactly. Yes, the feeble attempts to discredit hopefully look like attacks by Woodward, who want you to KNOW that he is the “elite” group that is going places and the rest of us are just rotting away doing nothing with our lives and our skills, knowledge, beliefs, etc.

    The objective by Orrin Woodward is to make everyone who doesn’t “believe” in his power–less than so that it builds him up to be stronger, more superior than everyone else. By controlling the minds and actions of his followers, he says see–these people think I’m the greatest so should everyone else and if you don’t, be gone with you–out of my sight so that I can continue my greatness. He feels that by everything that he has acquired shows how much he his worth. He needs this very much, for without this he feels he may whither away and die.

    The carnage left in his wake is of no importance to him, just a means to an end.

  147. Former Round Table permalink
    October 10, 2012 8:35 am

    I have come to believe that Orrin suffers from two personality disorders: he is clearly a narcissist, and he is able to lie like a true sociopath. Wisdom, I love your way with words.

  148. October 10, 2012 9:15 am

    Kevin Dunn said, ” Now I make more per year than I ever have.” Kevin also said in the same post that he was a Turbo 10.

    Kevin (or whoever you really are), are you trying to say that you make more as a Turbo 10 than you’ve ever made in your life at a real job, or are you simply saying that you’re making more as a Turbo 10 than you made when you were less than a Turbo 10? If you’re making more as a Turbo 10 than you ever have in your career, I feel for ya, Bud. I guess that would explain the “trailer” comment.

  149. No Team For Me permalink
    October 10, 2012 9:52 am

    Orrin is on a path to follow his idol Dexter Yager. But Orrin’s implosion will be a lot quicker than Dexter’s was and, Orrin never did achieve the mega group that Dexter did. He’s a Dexter Wannabe, but now with the power of the internet, the truth about Orrin can spread faster than it did with Dex.

  150. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    October 10, 2012 10:28 am

    Platinum Blond: LOL!! I haven’t ever been in the biz, but that’s the first thing I thought of, too…about the Turbo 10 level and income….I even asked an ex-Teamer about it via phone.

    AlmostIn: all I can say is: exactly.

    No Team: I was actually writing a post about Dex Yager as the “godfather” here when my computer froze, or else Mike C zapped my computer to stop me from philosophizing any more today 🙂 ……YES, it started decades ago….I’m sure Orrin caught on very early on after leaving his engineering profession and going to Amway, that Dex had a fabulous method for head-game tool teaching/selling. It’s the one thing he couldn’t let go of, through all iterations of MLM businesses….he KNEW where the true money to be had was lurking. (BTW, Dex is alive and well and still sits on boards, at least it looks like he does.)

    I have no problem with the person who became a millionaire over the invention of steel or painted pet rocks. What I resent, and what seems dangerous, is befuddling the masses with religion/family/friends/fun/finances/following/blahblahblah to the point where members think and behave as Howdy Doody puppets, espousing that they ALL might get rich by listening to the equivalent of (for example only) a down-home Baptist revival meeting, filled with sermonizing (or books/CDs) in a situation where there is NO accountability at the top, under the dishonest guise of “building communities” of people who are all blathering ONE MAN’s piece-meal philosophies and premises.

    It’s almost worse than the current DSM book’s definition of classic narcissism or sociopathology. It’s the “theft in the night” (if you let your brain fall sleep in the lullaby Team sings) of all but the financially successful few members’ identities–the outright robbery of the seat of the soul–of one’s inherent ability to think critically in making choices by which to subsist and flourish. No wonder the head-cheese hates too many governmental or societal controls over trade of dream-commodity vs the purchase of tangible goods….for if ever there were, he’d disappear, but unfortunately, those he left in the downlines would inherit the wind sooner (rather than later).

  151. Melanie Morgan permalink
    October 11, 2012 8:58 am

    Wisdom and all the REST~

    Wisdom, You have had some excellent post but your’s at 6:49 am is one of the best. Thanks for your contribution and to all the rest with your comments and ya’ll are just humorous! This thread has me rollin and some great information! It helps me so I am sure it will help others!

    No team for Me~ Excellent points! 🙂

  152. Melanie Morgan permalink
    October 11, 2012 9:04 am

    Kevin Dunn~

    You say: “This blog is almost laughable none of you have the GUTS to post your real names or you pictures.”

    Are you choosing to ignore those on here with their REAL names? Not to mention your link looks pretty sketchy!…laughable?…haha looks like the joke is on you!

  153. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    October 11, 2012 11:01 am

    Melanie: thank you—I think that post just about truly sums it up for what I think about it all. When all else fails, I sit here wondering WHERE are the checks/balances of such a business enterprise? Is it all simply run like a home-based business (except for the book publishing aspects and not talking about gigs for giving leadership talks to other businesses, etc)? I can’t believe that you can become a multi-millionare in a licensed business and not have forced disclosures, especially about income payment systems. No public records? Nada? What about records that need to be kept for a businesses “independent contractors”, etc.? What the hell! I voted for something in Wisconsin, and now you can find out every dirty detail about me and anyone else who voted as I did—-but that guy gets by year after year with no agency watchdog whatsoever?.

  154. AlmostIn permalink
    October 11, 2012 12:44 pm

    @Kevin & other pro-LIFEposters

    Why do you come here saying that certain information posted is not correct, but you do not provide any information to back up what you say that is false? Why do you come here in
    “one-shot” attack mode and try to discredit everyone here by calling them names or to say that they are negative, condeming and cowardly? Yet, you provide no information to stand behind what you state, such as proof or facts other than just words. Words are a “dime a dozen”, anyone can say them–the meaning behind them comes from the action taken to match the words. Why is it that the only place to get great cd’s & books is with LIFE–because you make money listening & reading them and getting others to do the same? Is that the only way to become rich & worthy of living, or is it because there is only 1 great group that knows how to do this and since the others here have decided not to pursue their dreams through LIFE that they cannot possibly have what they dream? Or is it because this site offers others the opportunity to look at all aspects of how team/ LIFE or no team/ LIFE will effect them that bothers you so much? Freedom IS choice. The non-LIFEer’s have made their choice but are concerned for others welfare enough to present their CHOICE and why they made that choice–Freedom.

    Kevin & pro-LIFEer’s- you take everything that is read here as being negative no matter what or how it is stated. There is no winning with the type of people that you seem to be. Don’t come here and cut others down calling them names and state that they aren’t backing up what they are posting–who are you to decide this–what are your credentials, your saintness, your higher-powerness–where does your authority come from?

    Of course no answer will be the pattern that is appearing here, so prove me wrong. That’s the” Fitness Challenge” for this site to answer the questions that others have posed but have received no response. In your heads you’ve won because you made a statement that is meaninful and powerful enough to stand on its own, so that’s good enough for the likes of everyone here.

  155. AlmostIn permalink
    October 11, 2012 12:55 pm

    Add on: Change “Fitness Challenge” to Mental Fitness Challenge”.

    And Change:

    In your heads you’ve won because you make statements that are meaninful and powerful enough to stand on their own merits, so this is good enough for the likes of everyone here and that’s all you can spare for us Non-LIFE r’s.

  156. Melanie Morgan permalink
    October 11, 2012 2:05 pm


    BINGO…There are NO checks & balances…Why? Because it is like all the other corrupt people with money, they have lobbiest who do what they do… pay (bribe)the law makers! Check out the contributions by all these Multi-billion dollar MLM companies Nu-skin, Amway, just to name a few.. and the ill-gotten gains from Multi-millionaires…it is NO secret.

  157. Melanie Morgan permalink
    October 11, 2012 2:12 pm

    IMO,If people couldn’t be bought off and If MLM’s were held to the same rules, laws, & standards as Corporate America, and there were enough man power to hold them accountable; it would create a major domino effect…Boom! There wouldn’t be one left standing!

    I would consider myself a realist, gave up “day dreaming” long ago when Orrin & George screwed us over..but never give up hope, I do believe in Miracles…just saying.

  158. Melanie Morgan permalink
    October 11, 2012 2:44 pm

    Almost In~

    Excellent! You have clearly pointed out their hostile M.O. They have no legit arguments, they all just follow and repeat what Simon says and the saddest part is they can’t even see their hypocrisy! They just keep repeating their mindless verbiage; do and say exactly what they are told because they have unknowingly been controlled with that garbage a thousand times over and are on auto-pilot.

    They can’t see that “name calling” is “condemning”, that they are “complaining” when they come here, they “criticize” everyone on here also and outside of the “cult”..( that they proudly call their culture). From the TOP down, they do the very things they claim they don’t do and tell others to NOT do…the HYPOCRISY of these guys and gals, has got to be the most disturbing and is blatantly obvious! The poor souls don’t even recognize it…It is truly astounding!

  159. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    October 11, 2012 3:09 pm

    Melanie: you know when I had my fill of the LIFE/Team innuendo/pseud0-name calling?

    Here’s when: paraphrased: When Dan Hawkins wrote that blurb on Twitter and fB: about urinating on yourself if you’re too scared to do something like being all-in for this biz–asking if you’d pissed yourself and smelled of it—vs. joining, and having the right attitude and smelling of success.

    That was *** IT *** for me!! I do mean the livin’ end—then I knew what those people were made of, if a PC member behaves like this to his minions. Low-class and gauche, juvenile and high-schoolish!

    Then I knew what a bunch of ***BS**** their version of being good Christian neighbors and business men/women REALLY mean now under him as the PC here in WI. Ya gotta ask yourself: how can ANYONE under him right now, who DOES have a sense of propriety and decency–no matter the age–even WANT to be associated with him and LIFE/Team-Stealth?

    Egad, if I really wanted to do this MLM for a business, I would be asking to at least get under someone else. If they do this on PUBLIC world-wide pages posted out there in perpetuity, then what do they do.say behind closed doors or their “neighbor” behind one’s back???

    If I came on here cold turkey, wondering if I should join…and I read this post info–that alone would make me think the whole thing’s a fraud—and I ain’t no nun, as they say.

  160. Melanie Morgan permalink
    October 11, 2012 3:59 pm

    That vein of greed runs so deep and wide and so many years of mastering the undue influence, collecting billions of dollars i to pay for the lobbying…It would take something catastrophic to stop them all!

    But as the liefers love to use as a rally cry: “ Evil only prevails when good men (women) 🙂 Do Nothing!.” …So here we all are… 🙂

  161. Melanie Morgan permalink
    October 11, 2012 4:09 pm


    I agree! You should listen to the CD; Chris Brady had the same thing going on, his story of his dog “Mindy”, I can’t remember exact quote but something close to:.. don’t be like Mindy, running in circles and pee all over yourself. So I doubt Dan Hawkin’s came up with that, he probably heard it from a Pc, Orrin, George or someone say it and then thought it cool to repeat it. At least that is what I would guess.

    I realize Dan is not who he used to be, but that doesn’t sound like the Dan I knew, not saying he isn’t but he in my opinion would is a major puppet on a string, especially for Orrin.

  162. AlmostIn permalink
    October 11, 2012 4:36 pm


    Omg–urinating on yourself because you are too scared to reach for this great opportunity…classy. I can’t bring myself to read any of their insightful, fullfilling, soul rendering wisdom (Opinion). Reading that, to me, (Opinion) is like asking for my higher power to give me a disease that won’t go away EVER. I can’t help but want to urinate on myself because I’m missing out on an opportunity of a lifetime. LMAO.


    Yes, higher standards for MLM’s is definitely needed if Corporate America really needs MLM’s at all (Opinion). Seeking a change would be needed, but, hey, if we aren’t Negative and we Stay Away from Tv and Internet, miracles do happen. Ask Orrin, he’ll tell you everything you need to know–the absolute WAY.

  163. Finally permalink
    October 12, 2012 4:09 am

    Dan Hawkins…… this what represents team lief??? I would say from my long experience with those fools that it is and that is sad……..What is more sad is they constantly third person and bully people with their comments such as the “peeing” on your self story. Yeah that’s inspiring, validating and up lifting………..Which by the way is what they claim they are all about. The funny thing is that since I have been out my wife and I are closer to our goals and dreams than we ever were in team. I know of at least 5 couples that were at one time speaking on team stages that are close or at to what team promoted it would do without the system, Orrin or any of the pC in their lives. The other amazing thing is that all the lief system claims to do for people has the exact opposite effect on the pc and the leaders. They talk of morals and character from stage as if they have a lock on them. They talk of fidelity and decency like they have those in their lives……All the while condemning, criticizing and complaining about the world outside of lief. The truth is the leaders I worked with had more of these troubles in their life than the people I knew outside of team. Let me be the first to say that I am not in a state of judgement here, I am simply pointing out that they are not who they say they are. I know of no less than 3 TOP leaders with issues so large if they got to the public it would seriously change the worship they now enjoy. I personally witnessed the cursing out of children in the leaders homes………slander of some fine people and abuses of things that they claim they are immune from because of their “system” and their diety……Orrin. All of the things i say I have personally witnessed and our my own experience or have knowledge from others involved. The specifics of what happened and those involved are not important what is important is they are very quick to point these same issues out with the rest of the world while claiming to have an immunity to them because they are in Lief……….I applaud all on here that use this site as an outlet and a source of first hand information and for the leaders of team who are reading this right now, and I know you are……….instead of attacking those on here why don’t you deal with the truths we are speaking. You know what we say is TRUE…..Again, I know that you do and so do others on here. We have been in your homes, have your emails and text messages. The most telling thing about how human you all are ( I know you claim that when it benefits you and makes you look humble but life differently) Is the voice mail I had and the one I heard of the same female so called leader…….She is praised by so many….yet is one of the ANGRIEST persons I know. The words this woman spewed…YIKES!!! I know it would have made a great CD. Of course you will never hear this from a team stage because they do have a different standard of judgement for their own them they do for anyone else.

    Here is one just for fun………This is Friday October 12th, Look at Jenn Pauls twitter profile…A Professing Christian woman, salt n light I think her license plate says……….On her Twitter profile the first thing she says she is is a leader………second……..wife……….very telling……of course I am predicting at some point today that is going to change. Let’s all play a long at how predictable these guys are. Now Tim (Marks) as you read this don’t let me down…….make sure Jenn get’s a phone call to correct this. I mean biblically she is a Christian first, wife second, mother and then occupation……….Just a little thing but very telling……….dontcha think?????? Oaky lets all see when and if this profile boo boo gets changed……

  164. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    October 12, 2012 6:10 am

    ABOUT ME BRINGING UP DAN HAWKINS’S “pissing on yourself” due to being a scaredy-cat:

    for me, the comment he made truly isn’t about him as he was—as the innocent auto mechanic who followed his wife into it. For me, it matters not that he’s acting like a muppet puppet, but it **is** very telling. I hold no personal moral value opinion against him in his other former life.

    If I bring my life experience, especially at this age, to the door of a new venture I want to be successful in, these are some of the things I bring along–this is what my PERSONAL PREMISES are for job success

    (folks, we need to do this before I can justly criticize what Dan Hawkins said–part of the problem of losing rapid conversation ability and trying to get points across in print on blog and social networking sites, and the lack of such are why there’s so many fights):

    1) how to win confidence via interactive skills, appearance, actions–this is not the time to “buck” societal norms and try to come across as some “cool avante-gard slob” or or hip friend or part of the “drama culture” or whatever;
    2) I’ve worked at how to influence others to promote myself in a societally-and-business-acceptable manner to achieve what I want;
    3) how to present myself in an adult team-player manner if it’s called for, or how to present myself to customers and to have the skill to follow-through;
    4) to do my “homework” so that I fit in if the situation calls for it, and no matter what, that I remain able to influence others in a positive manner, even if the choices are difficult, e.g., to maintain my humanity even in firing another.;
    5) to be diplomatic and as democratic as the position allows/calls for (to call upon my own value system, too), while still making sound decisions balance with being able to have employees or customers want to “follow” me as I climb the ladder of success, while at the same time, maintaining the proper personal distance—to lead by example toward a profitable goal.
    6) to not allow any theistic or atheistic (without theism) dogmatic views to take over my decision-making process in dealing with others in general business–instead, I chose to write my own moral and ethical code of conduct in dealing which others that leaves all of us dignified, no matter the difficult decisions required.
    7) and last, but not least: I believe we are giving the wrong message in life to young folks that earning a living is all about “fun”—this has backfired so badly now on we parents/grandparents in the business world–as early as 2005, 20/20 program, I think it was, did a show about whining 20-somethings in the corporate world causing unheard of scenarios because they weren’t patted on the back enough at work—special counseling groups had to be called in to try to wean them from the pablum of over-indulged upbringings. Work can be hard, at times mundane.

    So, these premises require that I come into whatever it is that I’m interested in with my “six-guns loaded”, i.e., first and foremost: I’ve got a successful code by which to live/work; I’ve educated myself in the business prior to arrival and I meet expectations that I’m a contender who will be able to do the job–be it in a business presentation to a bank with me wanting a loan for a venture, or be it starting my own business because I already have the money to do so, or if being a final contender in a job owned/run by someone else.

    NOW LET’S GET BACK TO “PISSING” OURSELVES (and what’s hidden in so-called motivational speech comments such as Dan uttered/wrote):

    1) What does this tell me (since I hold the above-posted premises to be true) about anyone who would use “gutter slang” in a juvenile “boy’s locker room” method to inspire others when this is supposed to be a developing business community? To me, it says a lot about Dan Hawkins—and I don’t need to name-call or get personal—I only know this: when at the age of 19 and I became a 4-H leader, I’d have been dismissed short order if I’d said such a thing to the school kids whom I was leading (see? I didn’t need to rely on any religious dogma to know right from wrong, either)

    a) Dan’s repeated juvenile approach to his LIFE/Team Stealth tells me right up front that he is not qualified in leading me to want to follow him, i.e., he is not a true business leader (or for that matter, a pseudo-religious preacher) among men/women (he’s done other silly things, too, like make that video of himself acting like an excited teenager over his wealth and then panning the camera to his mansion occasionally).

    b) Dan is acting outside of what is being preached publicly from this “business” (using the term lightly here) and outside of the norms of: good societal taste, good corporate business sense, his professed religious norms, etc.

    c) Dan’s never bothered to educated in tried/true leadership business skills–he’s never found out, that in the end, you need more than an Armani suit and a nice brick house–I honestly can’t think of too many upper eschelon business people who may have joined wanting to continue affiliating themselves after reading such sophomoric slop such as what Dan comes up with, but who knows–maybe those people don’t hold my same premises, either.

    d) Dan gets by with saying things like this—that he does makes me want to dig deeper behind the curtains–he’s either a parrot or the morality/common sense against such statements don’t exist in that organization.

    2) The Orrin factor: There are many more “red flag” messages I got when reading the pissing statement of his right in the same time-period he made that silly self-video out in front of the big brick house in Whitewater, WI. I don’t need to tear him down completely as a human being…I don’t need to swear at him (although I have and would love to again), all I need to do is pull out what MY code is, what MY ethics are to know: there is something seriously wrong in a business such as this, when the egomaniac at the top can’t see that he needs to reign in and retrain his “investment” (Orron needs to reign in Dan) to put forth the image he so desperately craves…..that Orrin does NOT do this, tells me that he is not capable of it, either. That people say they have heard Chris Brady say such things further advances the suspicion of moral corruption (I can say this because THEY are the ones claiming to be such good Christians, not me imposing that onto them).

    And the house of LIFE/Team cards collapses—without Amthrax and the posters on here, I may never have been able to get under the skin of this organization to see the disease—this site has helped me to organize my own premises in choosing what to believe when I deal directly with the writings of the top dogs in that business. .

  165. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    October 12, 2012 7:06 am

    Holy crap! That was a full two pages I posted—Mike C. is going to fillet me alive!!

  166. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    October 12, 2012 8:41 am

    Raquel: hope you didn’t think I was coming out against anything anyone else said, re: the parroting….when I said I didn’t care about parroting—I think I may have mis-stated that sentence—because it’s just like you guys are saying: it’s the brain-washing that causes it. I meant that if I did not know it up front, parroting wouldn’t matter (until I realized what it was by using my own experience and beliefs to uncover it).

    What I was trying to do is show my outsider rationale for being totally shocked at what I see him do and say—not because I’m some kind of a cloaked Puritan–but because it just seems that when he starts typing and filming, etc., that what is produced seems to be anti-everything that they claim they stand for–or put better: that we each need to dig deep enough to REALIZE that it IS parroting (this is where you ex-Teamers have a distinct advantage in already knowing that).

    And you are so right: none of us ever have to be apologists of any kind for being “financially poor” (whatever the heck that phrase even means anymore in a sinking global westernized economy)–some of the most successful human beings who’ve ever lived have done so in rags, leaving near-immortal legacies advancing mankind to higher plains of existence.

  167. Melanie Morgan permalink
    October 12, 2012 12:10 pm


    Excellent post, all of us who have gone through that “waking up” process when reality slaps you in the face and you can no longer deny your internal truth. It then begins to crumble, it is like being beside yourself and seeing the veil being disintegrated by an acid wash. When this first happens and you realize you have been betrayed, duped, and fooled by some so called friends is almost indescribable. It can only be described and is synonymous with painful descriptive words.

    They wrap the package up as if you just reached Heaven on earth when you have found them in your life. Said we believed and lived our priorities and would turn to our Faith first, but we could be condemned because the BUSINESS came first Above all else, including our family get together, children events, birthdays etc, Everything was scheduled around Team Events, Everything!

    The principles they pay lip service to are true but wickedly twisted by them to create conformity; when you realize they themselves don’t even believe them or nor do they apply to themselves.They do not follow what they preach. We believed we were building ‘leaders’ but we were building followers who were expected to perform and conform. We said we were all about FREEDOM, of speech, thoughts, to achieve our own business goals and dreams and obviously there wasn’t any of that. There was no Freedom involved, you had to check with your upline for every move, how you were thinking, who to talk to, what you should or shouldn’t say, the goals for OUR own business was based on the goals of the Whole Team. We believed and told people they owned their own passive, residual income and they were in control of how much money they made, and no one the PC controlled and final Decisions was Orrin controlled it all!

    The twisting of our real beliefs kept us all in a state of internal conflict and yet questioning ourselves. It creates doubt within oneself…like there must be something we just haven’t figured out yet or we just haven’t found enough leaders yet, gotta keep going til we do, we just have to keep ‘working’ for it to ‘work’. Their hiding behind their words, and pretend friendships, nobleness and ideals are what would eliminate any question of who they really were, not to mention you will be punished one way or another by your revengeful upline if you do question. They silently keep track and it is a big strike against you, if you do and they never forget it. Then all these little subtle paybacks from the upline begin to happen and you eventually find out about it.

    This list could be added to by all of us. We also said and believed we were helping people and when woke up and could see that did not match reality. When you realize your children were or born while you were in and when you wake up they are grown…OMg words cannot describe.. that to me was more than excruciating. I do hope others will “wake-up” way before I did. That is why I am here, otherwise I wouldn’t waste one not more second on any of it,

    Our family has already been robbed of Years, that we will never get back.

  168. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    October 12, 2012 5:12 pm

    1) Melanie and Raquel: profound posts–I wish AMTHRAX would give them more “front page” immortality here–hope they don’t get lost with time, buried in long lists of posts. I sure wish the two of you would get together and do a sequel to a “merchants of deception” type book.

    2) BLOGGY BLOG ANNIVERSARY NEWS from 10/3: more from the mouth of Dan Hawkins’s blog:

    “The LIFE Business is closing in on its one year anniversary (Founded: 11-1-2011) and what an anniversary it will be. Indeed, product subscriptions have nearly doubled since its founding, making LIFE one of the fastest growing community building businesses in the world. Growth of this magnitude is directly related to customer satisfaction”…..

    “…..With a total training cost under $50 dollars a month, FREE trips for people who hit 6,000 points of business in two legs (hundreds have qualified for free trips already), and the Mental Fitness Challenge receiving rave reviews, I see only faster growth in our future. Back-to-back months of double digit growth is amazing in any field, but I truly believe it will become the norm for LIFE as more and more people realize the value being offered to them. Remarkably for a first-year company, with a good finish in October, this fiscal year will be the best growth year *****in my twenty years of community building***!”

    Question: Did Dan start his “Team Foundership at the age of 16?!! He says he’s been in the Team biz for at least 20 years!! (see asterisked area in last sentence of quotes above)

    Question: was Dan afraid to list how much the MFC test cost? LOL!! For airline flights this coming 2nd week of December via Cheapo Airlines, I can get round-trip from WI to Fresno, CA, for only about $160 more than that test cost.

    Question: How many MLM “community building businesses” are there? I mean, ones that don’t have any typical household goods/cosmetics, etc., tangible, consumable (non-book, non-CD) products being sold as well? (so Amway types of MLMs need to be excluded). Or should I have asked: how many MLMs sell nothing but dreams to get rich in repetitive CDs and books with the rest of what they do cloaked in religion?

    Question: Okay, so if you earn 6000 points (am assuming $1 = 1 PV point), or $6000 in two legs of your downline, you get a free trip?

    Question: subscriptions have more than doubled? Um, does that include everyone who quit during the first year, too? Show me the numbers, please. But then, they never do.

    Question: Is it just me that noticed the FIRST thing to come up in regard to the upcoming anniversary: MONEY. Not about “community” or comraderie, etc. MONEY….’mo MONEY, mo’ MONEY, ‘mo MONEY…..

  169. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    October 12, 2012 5:36 pm

    Oops, I actually have MORE questions about just those two paragraph quotes from Dan that I just posted a few moments ago,( i’d have been on my toes if I could just get over what has to be his abject LIE about how long he’s been in the biz…seems to me that I actually KNOW who got him in the biz and when, unless he’s stealing his wife’s thunder as his own during the years he was an auto mechanic; he’s 36-38 yrs old–so between age of 16 and 18 he supposedly has been doing this? What a bunch of malarkey?):

    1) Paging Mike Collins or anyone “in the know”: how much for an average cost trip for hundreds of people when put against 6000 points coming in from hundreds of them? This trip isn’t a donkey ride out in The Black Hills eating fig newtons for lunch or something, is it?

    2) What’s with the “back-to-back months of double digit growth” math part of his blog? I mean, isn’t any number over the number 9 a double-digit? And it could only take you up to the number 99, right? So, it looks like they’ve had 2 months where they’ve had at least 10 people join? So, anywhere from 120 joiners to 1,188 joined?


    I went back to the blog site, and in another paragraph, he included members and those he just calls customers.

    3) HERE’S THE BIGGY, FOLKS: he called LIFE/Team a: COMPANY! So where’s the paper trail? Where’s the tax info, etc.?

  170. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    October 12, 2012 5:43 pm

    Correction to math in post #2 about Dan Hawkin’s quote regarding math: at it’s highest, of double-digit growth, it could have been every month for 12 months, leading to the number I gave of 1,188 (99 people per month for 12 months, at most; at the lowest, 10 people per month for any number of “back-to-back months”). My error in prior post: writing that back-to-back would only refer to 2 months.

    AND: does EACH leg have to have 6000 points for a total of 12,000 points? None of what he said can actually be found in their compensation plan as one of their convoluted examples.

  171. Finally permalink
    October 13, 2012 4:22 pm

    Growth is not the issue, it is net growth….remember that most that sign up do not even know what they are in and subsequently drop out as quickly as they sign up. I know a few couples that were getting billed on their credit card statements for the Lief system that they didn’t even know they were on………….The question is not how many signed up but how many are there a year later……..the turn over rate is unbelievable in team and the lies that are sold to get them on system contributing to the pc pockets are inumerable………There has been zero NET growth in the last year from what I understand……if they had so much growth over the last year why aren’t they bragging about what the actual numbers at the majors are…… their prime maybe 20K at a major……….I know where to get the actual numbers but it is not a big deal…….the big deal is that they are no where near that now at majors so how can they have this incredible growth???? All credible companies have real numbers…..not team……they just tell everyone they are growing…….Can you imagine going to a plastic surgeon, telling him what procedure you want done, him convincing you he can do it and charging you thousands and the only results you ever get is him telling you how great a job he did and how awesome you look??? Mind you he has never done anything for you other than TELL you your procedures came out great….. I know ridiculous but this is basically what Lief does…….Again everything they claim they do for people, better marriage, better finances, blah blah blah……….I remind you that I and others personally witnessed leaders and PC’s personal lives and they all have all of the issues they claim that the system immunes them from………..Former PC Darkangelo BANKRUPT, HUBER BANKRUPT……..Remember they touted him as the millionaire sponsor of Bill Lewis……….Tim Marks is said to have purchased two platinum legs to go Diamond in Q……He has never denied this and many have known it………Superman….right??? Again there are so many contradictions in these guys lives…………I must add that I personally have many things in my life that need work and it is only by Gods grace that I have anything……..these guys claim the Highest character and integrity of anyone in the world yet most of their lies have and can be proven……….I mean the PC that got questioned under oath in a court of law in the Q lawsuit about having a competing business with Q all lied and said they did not………they got hammered for 25 Million…………..

  172. No Team For Me permalink
    October 13, 2012 6:34 pm

    Finally – Well said. I still can’t believe the Darkangelo papers from the banruptcy. You really need to scroll through them. They had over $100,000 of credit card debt. Amthrax – it would be good if you could post a picture of the credit card debt pages of the bankruptcy for everyone to see. VERY eye-opening for this group who claims to pay cash for everything.

  173. switch permalink
    October 14, 2012 6:07 am

    Wisdom says-
    “1) Melanie and Raquel: profound posts–I wish AMTHRAX would give them more “front page” immortality here–hope they don’t get lost with time, buried in long lists of posts. ….”

    I really don’t think we have to worry about that one. LOL!

    Wisdom says-
    “I sure wish the two of you would get together and do a sequel to a “merchants of deception” type book.”

    Let me tell ya, I’d be the first to buy and I know many more who would probably be right behind me.

  174. freedomhaha permalink
    October 14, 2012 6:12 am

    No Team- The Darkangelo papers saved my life. It was when I saw them on here that I knew it was about time for me to leave the cult. I can’t thank the work that people have done on here enough. A year ago this time I was throwing my life away chasing a dream that was only real for 1% of the members. It has not been easy mentally, emotionally, and spiritually recovering from that evil that I was subjected too in Team LIEf. Since leaving my life has improved so much in every single area (including the 8F’s ironically). It makes me shudder looking back at the people I used to be. It was almost like I lost a year of my life. Again, THANK YOU!! Please read this post if you ever feel that your time is wasted posting on here! 🙂

  175. October 15, 2012 2:10 pm

    @switch and @noteam – been thinking of better ways to highlight good posts and comments. May want to push the bankruptcy documents to the top for a few days to remind people of their leaders’ past financial troubles.

  176. Diane permalink
    April 16, 2013 7:33 am

    My opinion on LIFE is no matter what you financially make the real thing here is how this company is changing lives. It is based on Faith, Family, Finances, Fitness, Following, Freedom, Friends and Fun. This company is getting the highest quality of leadership material in the hands of many children, young people and adults in our nation. They are making a difference in the lives of our future leaders in this Nation. It’s really a win win situation. Let’s take our nation back, get kids off the couch, and start teaching them to be model citizens. Go LIFE.

  177. Melanie Morgan permalink
    April 16, 2013 9:36 pm


    Are you a paid Team Life member?

  178. Chrisxrascal permalink
    April 17, 2013 12:46 am

    Diane – I was.recently on team for a year and a.half. I.agree with you that the information they share on team is good information for the most part. However, I don’t believe everything they teach is truth or the truth. Realize also it is a business and to know that some people have lost a lot of money. I am also a.Christian and believe the business entices a person into covetness, greed and dependence on team. IT took a long time for me to wake up. I recommend reading ” Mechants of Deception ” ( on the right side bar, main page). It definatly is an article worth reading and may help you see what some of us saw on team from our point of view. Also most of their information is from the books they read, which you can get at a much lower price elsewhere. Just my opinion, but you can improve your life at a.much lower cost, save money.and time.

  179. Freedomhaha permalink
    April 17, 2013 5:28 am

    Diane- I apologize for assuming that you are a Life Training member if that is in fact not the case. If you are I wonder what percentage of your downline is a making a profit.

    Thanks and Gods blessings.

  180. Freedomhaha permalink
    April 17, 2013 5:29 am

    ChrisxRascal- Thank you for sharing your story of someone recently involved in Life Training, or whatever variation they are using now.

  181. April 17, 2013 5:39 am

    Diane said

    “My opinion on LIFE is…”

    When one’s opinions weigh down the scale they can’t weigh the facts.

  182. noteam permalink
    April 17, 2013 7:03 am

    Diane – the public cry of their cause does not justify the private dishonesty of their means. TEAM/L.I.F.E. has caused A LOT of damage to A LOT of people. A lot of us on here are former top leaders who got to see what goes on behind the scenes.

    For every person claiming to make big money, there are hundreds who have wasted thousands of dollars with no financial return. Check with Orrin’s former Pastor & mentor to see what really happens to a church after Orrin & crew leave their carnage behind.

    Any good information which TEAM/L.I.F.E. shares is readily available from numerous sources at a fraction of the cost of what team scams people for.

    Ruining the lives of people you care about is not worth the small amount of good information available through L.I.F.E.

  183. Melanie Morgan permalink
    April 17, 2013 9:45 am


    Well said! Amthrax really needs a LIKE button.


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