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What We’ve Learned From the LIFE TEAM Major Function

October 24, 2011

Well, another TEAM Major Function has come and gone. What have we learned? I hope it’s not something along the lines of:

The most important thing you can do is to buy a ticket for the next Major Function. This will lock in your belief and put you six months ahead of everyone else!

Here are some of my questions:

  1. Did Orrin Woodward break out the Lungbusters story or talk about paddling the canoe? Did he talk about his days as an anonymous blogger?
  2. Did George Guzzardo give a seminar on strategic defaults and real estate advice?
  3. Were the Hubers, Cullens and Darkangelos paraded on stage as RT members in LIFE TEAM?
  4. Were full details of LIFE finally released and explained? Did the leadership explain how 95% of people involved will lose money?

TEAM and Ex-TEAM readers, what have you heard about this “life-changing” event that just happened over the weekend in Columbus, Ohio? Have they finally released details about this new LIEF… err… LIFE business?

121 Comments leave one →
  1. Outcast permalink
    October 24, 2011 5:18 am

    Amthrax said: 2. Did George Guzzardo give a seminar on strategic defaults and real estate advice?

    haha. That would be sold in the Financial package int he 8 F’s of LIFE. It’s what all the cool people are doing now.

    I can’t wait to see if anyone actually learned anything about LIFE. I saw a picture someone posted and the place looked packed. The PC made a fortune the sale of tickets at this conference.

  2. October 24, 2011 5:49 am

    Ohhhh yeaaaahhh they do promote them tickets to the next function, I remember purchasing one 2 years ago in a moment of passion or emotion or…..ah, yes, brainwashed frenzy! I mean, we did get a $35 discount!!! :-p

    Thankfully my husband put his foot down and said “NO!” And thankfully I was able to sell my ticket to someone else who was still in TEAM.

    My question would be this: If a person is struggling and not making any recruits after so many months, why keep putting pressure on to “keep on keeping on?” Where is your conscience, Mr Woodward???? Any ethical business wouldn’t exert this much pressure if a person is failing!

  3. Speak Your Truth permalink
    October 24, 2011 5:49 am

    Amthrax~ That is just flat out humorous!

    A Joke is a very serious thing~ Winston Churchill

  4. not signed up yet permalink
    October 24, 2011 6:43 am

    It’s been my observation that TEAM/Life only gives you bits of information to keep you going until the next bit of information is released. I remember hearing about this next big thing and how the business was going to change and how everyone was excited back in May, but no one could tell me what they were excited about.

    I was very clear with my sponsor and asked him to show me the big picture from the start…I wanted to know how the business was structured, I wanted to see financials on MV and Team and wanted to know what actual business experience these people had before I invested my time and money with them.

    None of these questions were answered and were usually countered with “come to the seminar on Saturday, you’ll find out more then” or “Get to a major, and you’ll get your questions answered”

    I also asked my sponsor and other TEAMbots to back up everything they were telling me…not one of them could…not a director, go getter or power player.

  5. No Team For Me permalink
    October 24, 2011 7:19 am

    Anyone know what the ticket price was? If there really were 8,000 people there (a substantial dip from the 24,000 in Kentucky 3 years ago) – at a $110 ticket price, that would be over $880,000 just in ticket sales. and that does not count tools. Normally the goal is for tool sales to FAR exceed ticket revenue. And with all thenew tools being promoted, I would not be suprised if over $2-3 million worth of tools were sold this weekend. That’s only $375 a person and I remember myself and many of my downline walking out with many times that amount at functions.

  6. Speak Your Truth permalink
    October 24, 2011 8:03 am

    I read this about a week ago…

    John Maxwell has put his knowledge of 30 years and teaching and also clearly lays it out in his book Developing the Leader Within. Now he has written specifically about it in his new book;

    “5 Levels of Leadership”~ John Maxwell

    He talks about this on his blog and What I found most interesting was some comments from a person by the name of Amy Anonucci (October 3, 2010 at 11:49 pm).. Obviously a teamer…lol..Are you serious? The as if she is calling out John Mawell implying he took his material from Orrin & Chris…hahahahaha! How foolish can you get! This is very telling and yet another example of what people.. is fed to ‘believe’. This is her comments to John Maxwell;


    “First I want to say that I love all of the books of yours that I’ve read, and the books that of yours I haven’t read are definitely on my list of to-reads! When I hear of the 5 levels of leadership though, I think of Orrin Woodward and Chris Brady’s book Launching a Leadership Revolution. The levels aren’t the same as what you list here, but it still seems awfully close!”~ Amy Anonucci

    Unbelievable! Where does Amy think O & Chris stole.. The information from? And their book came out in what…2005?.. And John Maxwell has been teaching this for 30 years! Is it ignorance or is it that she has just been pounded with the indoctrination, listened to extreme hype- edification and has been convinced on… ‘What to believe’?

    You can read it for yourself and find it at the link below.. And a reply to her by a person by the name of Charlie Wetzel (October 4, 2010 at 10:04 am) and THEN you can see Orrin’s response to the damage control to Charlie’s comments from Orrin (October 4, 2010 11:58 am).

    Notice also the difference between John Mawell fans who have original thoughts and comments and are NOT of a worshipping nature and then read those comments from the liefers who comment on Orrin’s blog!!!! Oh how obvious and telling the difference.

    There is NO comparison between John Mawell (a true; earned leader) and O who in my opinion is a true misleader and well… he demands recognition through edification and self-promotion. It is a joke to try and even compare the 2…unless you are comparing polar opposites!

    [Editor’s Note: Added blockquote for readability]

  7. Speak Your Truth permalink
    October 24, 2011 8:16 am

    No Team~

    This was a major so the ticket price is either $125 or $90 per person..but I am not sure what they charged. @ $125 that is a MILLION BUCKS…just from tickets..but who’s in it for the money? They aren’t greedy…Orrin has learned his lesson he is a ‘missionary’ now…it is about the ’cause’…lol

  8. not signed up yet permalink
    October 24, 2011 8:52 am

    The difference between John Maxwell and OW, is John Maxwell has not asked me to sign up for anything or spend a dime with him. I have several books by John Maxwell, and a Leadership Bible. All of which I bought of my own free will and all of which talk about real, actual leadership principles.

    John Maxwells material have real VALUE to them, where as TEAM stuff is all about team and getting Cds, and getting tickets to events where they will sell you more Cds and more tickets to events.

    Unlike Orrin where your leadership is purchased at a heavy price and I dont mean just money. As far as stealing material wasn’t it Chris Brady who said on stage that TEAM practically stole concepts from other people?

  9. Outcast permalink
    October 24, 2011 9:36 am

    Tickets are $125 advance price now, at the door they are more than that.

  10. Speak Your Truth permalink
    October 24, 2011 10:13 am

    not signed up yet~

    Exactly. That is the point John Maxwell earned his respect and reputation through true leadership and sold millions of copies through earning it…not conning masses…and forcing his book through ten’s of thousands of a captive audience that didn’t have a choice on whether they bought the was first a ‘game’ of promotion and then it was forced through their books of the month program..

    It is extremely misleading and deceptive to claim a #1 status (and it is hard to find anywhere on any blog where O doesn’t self-promote it) and I have never seen where he fully discloses this truth of how it really got that status… it wasn’t organically. Name one other book of theirs that got this status..that tells you how many people who have left their scam and quit buying the stolen leadership information!

    That is NOT how JM sold millions of copies of his books. Big difference between gaming the system and organically earning it!

  11. Speak Your Truth permalink
    October 24, 2011 11:39 am

    I found a quote from Jim Collins;

    “I had a professor in graduate school who walked in on the first day of class and wrote on the chalkboard: “The best students are those who never quite believe their professors.” Those who think for themselves—those who do not take anyone‘s word as infallible just because of their supposed authority—inevitably get the most out of their learning.”
    ~ Jim Collins.

    Another total contridiction from what they expect and practice on the Team. O who demands unquestionably, blind faith and loyality from the ‘followers’. They pay lip service to becoming ‘independant thinkers’… but we all know better. Not sure?..Just Question them start with how the profit-sharing and how the formula works.. and see what kind of response you get.. see if they are ‘transparent’..when you question…most can’t even get simple questions answered just ask ‘not signed up yet’.. don’t think they haven’t mentioned it to your upline..if they think you are ‘questioning’..they will be assigned to take care of it… lol…YOU do NOT question the PC’s decisions…they are final and if you do..your mentor will be getting ahold of you or they will bring it up out of the blue or it will be spoken from stage because you need to ‘correct your thinking’….again No leadership there…it’s a Read the directors contract. And make sure you read..that it is NOT willable…as they have lied for years telling everyone it was.

    For Orrin or any other PC to put themselves remotely close to John Maxwell or Jim Collins leadership realm.. is laughable…everyone… but the blinded.. mind-contolled followers.. know they belong with the Bernie Madoffs. Hilter too had followers….and was considered a leader..

    [Editor’s note: added blockquote]

  12. Speak Your Truth permalink
    October 24, 2011 11:46 am

    Just curious did they teach this at the major…or will it be taught at the Next best..awesome, incredible, amazing, mind-blowing, mind boggling, just don’t have words for.. best leadership teaching on the planet from the best well know leaders in the World!…thank you..thank you…thank you…major coming up for lieF?

  13. October 24, 2011 11:58 am

    It looks as if Orrin has found a new pastor to try and bring legitimacy to his cult. Orrin introduced him a top ten pastor???? That is hilarious. Not only is Orrin self proclaiming himself as a top ten leadership guru but now he has the authority to proclaim a pastor top ten in the country. Only a man that is a complete narcissistic devil could even think about saying something like that. Tell me Orrin, what makes a pastor top ten?

    The new face of the cult is Stephen Davey from Colonial Baptist Church in North Carolina, Could this be the Brady’s pastor? I think that they moved to NC. I feel for Pastor Davey as he has no idea what is about to hit him.

  14. Speak Your Truth permalink
    October 24, 2011 1:18 pm

    team deception~

    I agree 100% and was thinking the same thing…is there a ‘voting’ process that Commericalizes Pastors as ‘top ten’ now or is someone ‘measuring their results?’ Everything in the world of PC is ‘measured by (fake) results and images….Unbelievable..

    I share your sentiments on Stephen Davey also…he doesn’t have a clue what is about to sublte fool him with their cult tatics…rip his life up and turn his church into greedy breeding ground for recruiting. These guys no doubt have slithered their way into yet another church. Hopefully..he will be able to see past the ‘stroking’ of the ego and discern before it is too late.

  15. October 24, 2011 1:22 pm

    SYT and Outcast and No TEAM – when I was going there 2 years ago, it was $90 plus tax for advance tickets, and $125 plus tax for door tickets. I can’t get over that they charge $125 now for advance tickets! Yuck.

    Team deception – I can’t believe they’re recruiting another pastor 😦 I just hate it when they mix religion into business.

  16. Speak Your Truth permalink
    October 24, 2011 1:56 pm


    I am with you it is a shame. They have went back and forth on these 2 prices they will charge more but haven’t changed a thing. Thought they were about the best prices…no and’s if’s or but’s about it??? If there really was 8000 people (hard to believe unless they found another team to raid) then the difference between the ticket costs of $90 & $125 raises the profit $280,000 grand! Do you think they pay that 1 extra speaker & Dallin 280,000 dollars or NEED to charge more?

    They have been doing this since back in the Yager/Amway days, they would have numerous speakers and outside ‘entertainment’ to spread their propaganda and ideology.

    I remember a Team of Destiny Major they brought in a hypnotist..and at the time I didn’t think too much of it…thought it was more for ‘entertainment’…until they had the hypnotist tell the volunteers that came on stage.. the hypnotic ..’they would be Diamonds.’

    I only remember 1 couple who went up there and they QUIT probably along with the rest of them! But now reflecting on it…is very fitting for their practices…they have to figure out a way to Convince, Coerce and use Thought Reform…otherwise NO ONE would fall for it especially knowing the facts that the PC are the only ones raking in all that cash and if they knew what we know..they would never again waste a penny!

  17. not signed up yet permalink
    October 24, 2011 3:14 pm

    Izzy even if we were making several million dollars a year, in a legitimate business.
    TEAM would still come after you and tell you that you;re not doing it right because you aren’t doing it right excause you are following teams system. They will go after anyone any where any tim

  18. switch permalink
    October 24, 2011 4:49 pm

    …..and the mentality applies with numbers. 1 or 2 will never be good enough….. because if it’s 1 why isn’t it 2 and if it’s 2 why isn’t it 3? Even in the millions.

    You honestly think that IF they were to ever go to a million, their work and game would be over????

  19. Used to be "all-in" permalink
    October 24, 2011 5:40 pm

    Isn’t it interesting that when you click on an individual post, Orrin is now using google ads on his blog? But he’s not in this for money…he could really use those extra dollars each month…

  20. Crazy Canuck permalink
    October 24, 2011 5:56 pm

    3. Were the Hubers, Cullens and Darkangelos paraded on stage as RT members in LIFE TEAM?

    Here’s a quote I found from someone commenting on the TEAM blog site:

    “I also have to give out a big shout out to Chuck and Nancy Cullen; it was so awesome to see you two up on stage for RT’s and the Top Gun Emerald. You guys have no idea how much you inspire the Rampage Team, Thank You for being such servant leaders; it is time to see more Rampage on the stage.”

    So, to answer your question Amthrax – Yes! They did parade them across the stage as RT’s. 🙂

    [Editor’s note: Added blockquote]

  21. Huperdeim permalink
    October 24, 2011 5:58 pm

    Does TEAM make any money off the bottles of water (six [6] dollars apiece!)? Or other such items? Or does that go to the arena?

  22. No Team For Me permalink
    October 24, 2011 6:41 pm

    I think we should all contact this Pastor Stephen Davey and make sure he knows what he’s doing and how many people he could potentially be leading astray. If he truly is not aware, maybe this could actually get him to re-think his speaking agreements.

    Huperdeim – each city and venue are different, but many of the contracts allow for negotiations of a split on concession, parking, etc revenue. And you would not believe the deal you can get with many of these arenas. It’s a fraction of what you think it would be.

  23. October 24, 2011 6:58 pm

    check it…

    “Sunday completed another rousing major function. The speakers hit an all-time high in belief, content, and quality this weekend. With 15 plus RT’s, triples, and quads, along with Chris and Danae Mattis as new PC’s, the recognition was astounding! Not too mention Tim and Amy Marks and Chris and Terri Brady going Quad PC. Wow! Our special guest – Dallin Larsen, Oliver DeMille, and Stephen Davy knocked it out of the park as well. Has the TEAM ever had a better major? DeMille’s talk on freedom received numerous standing ovations and Davy’s gospel message should be spread to the entire world. I never knew fleas could have such relevance to the gospel before. 🙂

    Anyway, what was your favorite parts of the weekend? What did you walk away with to implement into your business/LIFE to grow? Please share with us. Sincerely, Orrin Woodward”

    Lol, Tim and Amy were announced as triple pc in July and now are quad. Orrin was announced as Deca-pc. So does that now make him Dodeca-pc…haha

  24. Speak Your Truth permalink
    October 24, 2011 7:17 pm

    When do suppose they will walk their talk and be Transparent and Show Everyone how many possibly ten’s of millions if not hundred’s of millions are raked in…What’s in the Profit-Sharing and Who, What and How much they Pay? Wonder if they even share those profits?

    Do you think they are ‘transparent’ with their ‘charity’ and how much is raked in there? Are they ‘paying’ those in charge of the Charity? Hmm…

    It’s no wonder why they swear people to secrecy.. Troy and Orrin want this and other sites to be shut down and whitewash the ‘history’…I wonder why?…They aren’t greedy?..Let them store up their ‘treasures’ now because someday…they Will.. pay a PRICE!

    They will run with it trying to make all the millions they can just skirting the law a every turn but that No doubt will Catch them…Troy’s biggest FEAR is the ‘industry’ is going to get cracked down on by the goverment and because none of them are willing to police themselves and hide, deny, and cover up all kinds of things….prentending…that is most likely what is coming!!!! That is exactly what needs to happen!…A full blown crack down and cracking open of the money…a REAL investigation…When that happens, I have a gut feeling there will need to be a lot of prison space open up!

  25. Speak Your Truth permalink
    October 24, 2011 8:12 pm

    Does anyone know what exactly the qualifications are for RT and PC; no doubt they have changed them and how does it fit the binary? They seem to be hyping and bragging an aweful lot…but that is standard opperating proceedure…and you can never take it seriously..because they always leave out… the rest of the story.

    They sure seem to be overly proud of their recognition….wonder how much bragging they would be doing..or if they would have any recognition without all those unethically gotten coreced groups..? Again, not organic just conned a bunch from others. Nor any of those K Crukley has listed were ever on the Team before. SO what is the Rest of the story?

    Chris and Danae Mattis…Never were in Orrin’s or any other Team PC’s line of sponsorship…who inherited them? It is quite amazing how they deceive and claim other people’s work of blood, sweat, and equity..some of many decades.And they demand loyalty to only their system and misleaders? Where is the ethics and sending those people back to those who did the suprise. I would guess all this recognition has everything to do with their ‘new and manipulated Lief.. ‘line of sponsorship’..
    Guzzardo, Lewis, or Hawkins didn’t get any more recognition no more freebies left for them to inherit and No new PC and what happened to all those that were PC’s before? Hmm…

    No team~ How much you think they paid that new Pastor Stephen Davey for this event? Are they still taking up a collection at the Sunday Service and where does this money go?

  26. Speak Your Truth permalink
    October 24, 2011 8:15 pm

    Used to be ‘all in’~

    That must be plan B…the back up plan to the sinking ship…LOL….:)

  27. No Team For Me permalink
    October 24, 2011 9:06 pm

    Speak – Not sure. My opinion (and this is only an opinion) – I would not be suprised if they paid $10-30,000 or more, for Davey. He is a top10 you know 🙂 It’s amazing how many people Dexter was able to pull in which added credibility, only to find out, they really only came for their speaking honorarium. I’ve heard John Maxwell gets $25-50,000 for his appearances. I’ve been involved with booking many speakers and it’s very rare to get a decent one for less than $5-10,000. But to get a major pastor to leave their own church on a sunday, I would expect they would want more (if they are a profit religion pastor). Most true pastors would rather stick with their own flock, instead of allow a chance for false edification of a group they do not truly know. Just my opinion. Not passing judgement on Davey because I do not know him personally. Just a generalization of philosophy.

    Great question about the collection from the Sunday Service. The numbers don’t add up when they used to say over $100k had been donated to causes. Between what they claimed was given from book sales and the tens of thousands they collected from passing the buckets around 3 times a year for 10 years – there should have been A LOT more than $100k donated.

    Also interesting to note that they had 15 new RT’s, a new PC & 2 new Quad PC’s, yet there were only 8,000 people in the arena. That’s only about 1,000 more than they had 2 years ago. how can they break that many new pins with less than 1,000 new people?

    Not to mention that they are still down close to 20,000 from the famous Kentucky kickoff 3 1/2 years ago.

  28. You all need a LIFE permalink
    October 24, 2011 9:17 pm

    WOW! I don’t even know how I came across this but I am sorry I did.
    This will be my first & last post here. I won’t ever read what any of you have to say to me.
    I couldn’t care less…pick me apart to death, every sentence. It only proves me right.
    I am ashamed to even be writing this now let alone respond to every post…ughhhh….your lives must be so depressing to sit in front of a computer saying NOTHING. Gossipping/ranting about other people. If your life is so good now & you are so happy you quit TEAM, then why are you still so obsessed with them? Get over it. It didn’t work for you for whatever reason, I am sure it had NOTHING to do with your negative attitudes….
    Yes, I am with Team, yes I get paid, yes I was at the Major -$125 ticket. It was awesome!
    I am sorry that you are so dissatisfied with your own lives that you need to stand on the outside judging everyone else. Even if I was never paid a dime, I would be a part of Team for the rest of my life. I would rather be happy with vision then sit around blogging all night trash talking. I feel bad for you & hope that you find true happiness someday.
    I have read a few of these blogs here & there, 95% of it is assumptions being thrown around. The other 5% I don’t know if it’s true or not….but like I said, I wouldn’t quit Team because of a few sad blogs, I’m committed because I love the person I have become, the invaluable information I have absorbed & the great friends I have made. Even if they didn’t pay me, I would still be in.
    I hope you all have a splendid time with this little note. Tearing it apart like a shark feeding frenzy…. I am off to bed, pyramid scam meeting tomorrow night I need to prepare for 😉

  29. common sense permalink
    October 24, 2011 9:54 pm

    4.Were full details of LIFE finally released and explained? Did the leadership explain how 95% of people involved will lose money?

    100% of people who shop at walmart and get gym memberships will lose money. Oh the horror. Even though they will get products from walmart and some of the might use thier gym membership 100% will lose money.

    Now if you spend money on a product that helps your marrige or helps you manage your exsisting finances better or mabye you just looking for a fun place to hang out with positive people, and you didnt make money from it did you really lose all your money or did you mabye pay for a product simular to a gym membership or a marrige counselor or a John Maxwell cd?

    If you’re right you save someone the cost of a monthly cable bill and a tank of gas per month. But if LIFE is right. Then we saved a marrige or someones finances or maybe thier health.

    What are you offering?

  30. Burned Out With MV permalink
    October 25, 2011 4:09 am

    Wooo Hooo ……… major function ………. everybody pack the cars and drag homeless folks off the street and pay for their ticket too. 🙂

    Look south to see where this is headed, about 100 showed up in Atlanta the other night and “We are just getting started” (since 2005), sign me up again ………. NOT!!!!!!!

  31. Speak Your Truth permalink
    October 25, 2011 6:01 am

    NO Team~

    Thanks. That could be a challenge for a ‘profit’ Pastor to turn down. Even if they made only 10 grand for speaking..not to mention the stroking of ego that I am sure they have been pouring on along with their noble ’cause’ and the self-proclaimed ‘status’ that this Pastor has probably heard a thousand times already.

    My thoughts exactly on the numbers and recognition, that is why I asked if anyone knew what the qualification of a RT & PC are. There is No way they are breaking 15 new RT and quad PC’s with the old qualification. It is a joke for those of us who know what it takes to go RT the old way. With that many breaking that would be more like turbo 25’s. You can fool some of the people some of the time but you can’t fool all of the people all of the time!!!

    You nailed the point with the over all numbers of; only increased of 1000 and 20,000 from 3 1/2 years ago…makes it way too obvious. But for those who were at the kool-aide festival…not a chance.. we know they never tell the real or rest of the story. But then the illusion and self-deception wouldn’t work..their objective always is to ‘fake’ out as many as they can..including themselves… as if it is ‘exploding’, to get the poor souls in the audience to ‘believe’ they TOO can do it. That is the worst pathetic shame of all…the the vicious cycle of churning people through the lie… continues…all under the guise of Religion and Cause…

    Burned Out~

    LOL…Wow almost of 100… for the population of Atlanta?
    They have been saying that for well over a decade now!

  32. Crazy Canuck permalink
    October 25, 2011 6:28 am

    Speak –
    Chris & Denae were picked up by Tim & Amy. Probably a large part of how Tim & Amy went quad.

  33. brent hansen permalink
    October 25, 2011 6:54 am

    This is all very humorous, typical MLM. Ranks and recognition being achieved by merely reshuffling participants who are already involved. This will surely keep the top on the top, haha! . Is there anyone really at the grass roots putting new people in, or is it a constant cycle of clawing their way to the top? Freakin pathetic!

    Of course NOW, they will all be able to move forward because they have a ‘real’ model in place, one which will psssshhhh…..’revolutionize the industry’. When you drop from a 1 in 31 ratio in MV to a 1 in 21 ratio in Lief, the numbers of those in profit may change 1-2% maximum, so no big deal. Just because one more person in your team will be able to cover their subscription with their earnings hardly equates to a model that will revolutionize the industry.

    There is a reason behind all of this, and I fail to believe that Lief is ‘the realization of a long time dream’. This is a massive money scramble designed to keep the Pharaoh at the top of the pyramid. With the bankruptcies rolling in, and MV tanking, someone realized if they didn’t act fast, the ‘leadership’ team would lose credibility when they went looking for jobs, and once that happened the rhetoric of many years would be proven false. Many of them have jobs (I have knowledge of that) yet continue to ‘pretend’ as if they are ‘job optional’.

    If anyone has access to the EBC I would appreciate them posting on Amthrax, or emailing me a copy of the finalized comp plan. There were a few bonuses still up in the air when I analyzed it previously. I would like to see where they finally landed.

  34. Speak Your Truth permalink
    October 25, 2011 7:19 am

    Crazy Canuck~

    Thanks. Now that they have ‘rearranged’ all those soliciated teams (proven-duplication at it’s finest…NOT) in their new/old Team Lief scam and got their recognition as a 1 time hopla.. and… by lowering the bar. Hoping that false hype will carry them through..long enough to get those fooled folks ‘believing’.. to go out and bust their arses to pillage more people’s finances and lives.. brainwash them..long enough to get more to stick temporarily to get more to stick until they find one that will do, say, behave, think, and feel, what they tell them to and bring in thousands..then the cycle repeats to infinity. Time will tell…just how much recognition they will be able to manipulate next time.

    But then MV is ‘unifying’ with their MVP program..going into the ‘training’ business… Dallin must have had to wake up to see where the real money is..knowing no one is buying the they enter even poorer countries to rape and pillage their lives and finances…all in the name of MLM and changing the world one life at a time. I am curious how they will ‘split’ the millions with all those who already have their own systems. Brig, Orrin, Black Diamond University etc.? We all know Brig & Orrin will never be ‘unified’…lol

    It is mind-boggling how they have self-deceived themselves into believing they are helping others pay their bills, become more godly, better parents, friends etc…it is an atrocity! My prayer is the FTC, FBI, IRS, DOJ.. someone..anyone will step in bring the justice and stop the horrendous damage this has and is doing to those who will continue to get their lives and finances ruined because of the greedy few.

  35. Speak Your Truth permalink
    October 25, 2011 7:26 am


    LHOL!!! Thanks for the laughs..much needed when you know the reality of this flippin farce! We must have been posting at the same time. Great post. Sorry..I do not have access and vowed I would never, ever, ever, ever…give them another red cent of our hard earned money.. for their scam.. so I hope there is still someone who could get you that. 🙂

  36. October 25, 2011 7:31 am

    Yes, something needs to be done by the top authorities – and better friends??? Sheesh, I ***LOST*** friends due to TEAM, I’m sure we all did.

    Sometimes I feel like no hope in this dept, though. Woodward’s lawyers are too slick and powerful for us 😦 People like us are too financially broke to push legal action, thanks to the the team rape on our pocketbooks. I know I sound discouraging, but I also read somewhere in the Bible “Vengence is Mine, says the LORD” …..

  37. Speak Your Truth permalink
    October 25, 2011 7:48 am

    I agree Izzy…it is going to take a power way greater than these con’s can ‘buy’.. who continually skirt the law… to take them down!
    Great verse! And what a great day of celebration for us all! 🙂

  38. Speak Your Truth permalink
    October 25, 2011 8:12 am

    Ok.. the kool-aide festival is over once again it has created more liquid courage…so predictable! I would do it for FREE FOREVER…lmao!

  39. Speak Your Truth permalink
    October 25, 2011 8:27 am

    common sense~

    You say; “Were full details of LIFE finally released and explained? Did the leadership explain how 95% of people involved will lose money?”

    Are you that excited that you couldn’t answer your own questions?

    You post make no sense…use a different handle or come with your real name…lol
    What are we offering…lol? Flippin burgers at McDonalds is a better will earn more and if you have a ‘positive attitude’ which none of you liefers are all fakers..just read the post.. then you would enjoy flippin burgers too…that liquid courage has got the best of you all right now come back in a week or so when it has worn off..and you have come back to reality!

    You all need a life~

    Lmao…If you are so ashamed to be writing then couldn’t help better now that you stumbled across this site by think any of us believe that pile of dung..but you got that one post in…you don’t have a clue what our lives are like. Just to clear up your ignorance…we love our lives now that we are not deceiving, lying, and scamming others as you are doing. Good luck keep doing what your doing ‘forever’ with no financial results…you are guaranteed to fail along with 96% of the people you con in..but hey that’s just the facts… ‘keep believing’…fired-up…you can do it!

  40. brent hansen permalink
    October 25, 2011 8:43 am

    common sense & you all need a life,

    We are offering one thing here, and only one thing, THE TRUTH! I am glad that you love the Lief product, and if you are consuming it and changing your lives, more power to you.

    Unfortunately, when 99% of the people join Lief they are joining because they want their own business. Walmart or the gym does not tell us that we own a piece of the action, and that we will be able to earn money from shopping there, neither should Lief.


    And for those of you who wish to prove us wrong, go ahead, open up your back office and show us what percentage of your team is breaking even. Heck, I might even offer a prize to the one who shows me that more 5% of his team is breaking even.

    The circus continues.

  41. brent hansen permalink
    October 25, 2011 9:35 am

    Another thought to see if Common Sense really has common sense. There is no helping you all need a LIFE, because it is obvious that he isn’t in business, and is satisfied with never turning a profit.

    Lets look at this from a business standpoint alone, and look at some statistics that are available to everyone. Does Team, Life or the PC provide any similar statistics? After all, you are getting into business with them, you should be talking about ROI, investment vs. expense, a break even point, taxes, etc. etc. Unless of course you are on a mission with them to help change the world, then you are not in business, you are helping spread the truth, hahaha….

    We have all had the sh## shoveled on us to make us believe that if you start a business there is a 95% chance you will fail, and by implementing a training, success, or franchise type system, that your chances of survival will greatly increase. Correct?

    Interesting enough according to Dun & Bradstreet 37% of start up businesses actually survived 4 years and that the 90% failure rate is merely a myth. The Small Business Administration gives statistics of 66% survival for 2 years, 44% survival for 4 years, and 31% of businesses will make it for at least 7 years. Now I believe that the SBA probably knows their stuff since they are guaranteeing many of the loans that the banks are making. This means they are actually encouraging people to start business, and backing it with loan guarantees.

    On the flip-side of the coin, lets talk about a franchise type of business model. If you would like to go to, you can find a list of the worst and the best franchise systems to invest in. The median average failure rate for all franchises is 12.81%. This would indicate that 87.19% of franchises are profitable. What does that mean? That means that 87.19% of all of those engaged in a franchise type of a model are able to earn enough from their franchise to 1. keep their doors open and 2. pay themselves a LIVING wage. This great information because it confirms that a BUSINESS SYSTEM is really the safest way to ensure your success in small business. However, the statistics that are often quoted in the MLM arena are totally misleading, and blatantly false. You all actually have a great shot at making it in business.

    To those of you who are Life supporters, are the statistics available to you, do they explain the mathematical equation governing their compensation plan? Why not? Don’t you know that you are subject to it. Does their SYSTEM provide 87.19% of those engaged an opportunity to keep their doors open and earn a living wage? After all, they teach that you are joining them in business because of the incredible wealth creating SYSTEM that is in place. Does the track record prove it? Are you in business to turn a profit, or are you simply a Life customer?

    You see, the beef that all of the people on this blog have is they joined because they were told it was a viable BUSINESS model, and they believed it. They thought they had their hands on something real, something that could provide money to them and their friends. I didn’t join Amway in 1995 because I wanted to be a customer, are you kidding me, I would rather use Tide. I didn’t want to drink $40 a bottle juice either. I wanted to own my own business. I was naive enough to believe that somehow joining their SYSTEM would provide me with a legitimate shot at creating an extra income for me and my family.

    Now, I don’t have the Team/Life statistics available either, but I can refer to their compensation plan, and I can mathematically reason that it has a 95% plus mathematical failure rate built into it. I can look at the MV income disclosure statement and tell you that less than 1% of all of those involved can cover their monthly cost of autoship. I can analyze any MLM compensation plan for its BUSINESS merits, and tell you whether it is viable or not. And trust me, after 18 months of analyzing compensation plans I have found less than 5 companies which are providing a real opportunity.

    So you can bury your heads in the sand, drink the juice so to say, buy the cds, and cheer for the PC, or you can choose to get educated, and make a decision for yourself. Someone in this deal is making money, and I guarantee you its not YOU!

  42. Speak Your Truth permalink
    October 25, 2011 9:37 am

    I agree Webelieved.
    Ah yes…not only mathematically are you guaranteed doomed but you are also doomed, bound, and gagged by their clever little contract. How much they care about providing the best ‘leadership’..what a joke. They are only ‘protecting’ themselves from a massive lawsuit that they deserve. You are even bound to be ‘proud’ of your ‘image’ and to ‘enjoy’ modeling the proper dress code?;
    “14) Director is proud of his, her or its professional image and enjoys modeling the proper dress code.”

    WTF~… They are blatantly telling you how you are supposed to feel…right there in their contract. They are a piece of work…nothing but a Dictatorship!

  43. Speak Your Truth permalink
    October 25, 2011 9:56 am

    Brent…That is some great facts… they can’t claim ignorance now can they!
    With that knowledge.. they also should read what they have signed their lives away to and are bound, gagged, and trapped when they sign the lieF contract…which apparently…according to Troy that miraculously changed his story…it doesn’t matter whether they let you read it or take it to an attorney..

    This is the ‘business opprotunity’ that is touted as the ‘level playing field’ for everyone?

    BTW~ You said we are offering the TRUTH, that is correct…they can take it or leave it!

  44. Speak Your Truth permalink
    October 25, 2011 10:02 am

    Orrin doesn’t have the guts to admitt and tell everyone they FAILED everyone in Amway and now FAILED again in MV all the while knowing the Guaranteed Failure rates…and just as history will repeat itself…they have built into their plan and will FAIL all those liefers. Instead he claims he is a hero..what a fraud!

  45. Crazy Canuck permalink
    October 25, 2011 10:08 am

    Brent, do you still need a copy of the final comp plan? Post your email and I’ll get it for you.
    Or do you want copies too Amthrax?

  46. brent hansen permalink
    October 25, 2011 10:17 am

    Crazy Canuck, I appreciate the offer but one of our benevolent friends here on Amthrax has already emailed me a copy. HOLY MOLY! Have you seen the iron-clad P&P? Talk about no rights. That should be enough to scare most folks. They even included a “class action arbitration agreement”. They are going to run this to the hilt, and take it to the bank.

  47. Speak Your Truth permalink
    October 25, 2011 10:32 am

    What?…Did you say…An Arbitration Agreement?…You mean..what Orrin called ‘habitual abuse’…. when used by Amway? What a pathetic.. Hypocrite…Too bad they may try and ‘protect’ themselves from the fools that sign that now….but none of us signed it! They are revolting.

  48. not signed up yet permalink
    October 25, 2011 10:40 am

    These are great posts, I was told my my sponsor that TEAM would never tell you what to do. Yet TEAM tells you how to dress, how to act, what to read, what CDs to listen to, not to watch tv, where to be on a Tuesday night,n that you need to STP 15 times a month, and get to a major.not to be negative (but you can be negative to those outside team all you want), that you need to kiss some serious butt and worship Orrin, and not question anything TEAM tells you to do.

    Thats alot of directives for not telling you what to do.

  49. Speak Your Truth permalink
    October 25, 2011 1:42 pm


    Vogel has a couple of links put up on LM site you can find at the link below… that I believe you would be interested in reading:

    There is a lawsuit between Berke Hedges and LVFN another MLM. I read part of the link from Business from Home website that Vogel has a link to and will go back and finish it.

    All of us that have been around had stock piles of his book ” Parable of the Pipeline” and still do it is what the Team used for a long time… til they wrote their garbage and started forcing it..well sounds like Burke Hedges was offered a pretty sweet deal with this MLM and they never held up their end of the bargin!

    NO special Deals everyone is expected to burn through their family and friends while the special back door deals go undisclosed!! Another one for Troy to add to his list of ‘special deals’ that are ‘offered’ to only a few select in the MLM industry! Proven…Duplicatable System? What a flippin LIE! Continue to stick the head in the sand….their time is coming…they are chewing each other up with lawsuits and if that doesn’t take them down..or draw attention to someone who can do something about this farce…in the mean time they will turn their contracts into a dictatorship and people will get tired of them controlling every breath they take…Free Enterprise…is that what they mean by ‘special deals’?…What a disgraceful lie for all those who will kill themselves trying to STP one person at a time…while they are watching fake recognition…uniformed… those at the TOP are NOT building it…they are soliciating and stealing others!

  50. Speak Your Truth permalink
    October 25, 2011 1:50 pm

    We watch long enough they will self-destruct! Eventually it will catch the attention of someone and Troy and all the other Scam artists… greatest fear will come alive..when someone with some integrity and authority cracks down. The judges have got to be seeing an aweful lot of lawsuits in this greedy Industry!

  51. switch permalink
    October 25, 2011 2:14 pm

    Pass that popcorn, Speak… make a killer batch! MMMMMMMMMM!!!!!

  52. Speak Your Truth permalink
    October 25, 2011 2:29 pm


    Knock..Knock..Ding dong…I am here to collect on my ‘special back door deal’…lmao..

    You never fail….perfect timing! 🙂

  53. Speak Your Truth permalink
    October 25, 2011 2:44 pm

    Do you suppose they have a ‘sign up’ sheet at the open now for those who get the ‘special deals’..and ‘free teams’.. they never built… or do they… ‘draw out of a hat’… or perhaps they played ‘eenie meenie miney moe’…lmao? Perhaps that is built into the ‘plan’ now.. I didn’t read anything close to that in the contract…The speaker asks: Raise your hand if you want a ‘special deal’?…lol.

    Gotta love that ‘proven..dublicatable system where the playing field is level for EVERYONE!

  54. brent hansen permalink
    October 25, 2011 2:48 pm


    That is interesting considering that Burke has been promoting Numis extra hard lately. Personally I haven’t looked at Numis, but Michael tells me the payout is not good. All of the groups are built on “special deals” that is exactly the point I was trying to show in the “Binary Facebook Discussion”.

    Michael and I have had numerous offers to be positioned in companies, its almost unbelievable some of the lengths people will go to to lure you into their deal. Like I think I mentioned before, when I threatened to leave my last binary, the CEO opened up 11 new positions for me at the top of my organization. That was in addition to the one I had, the one my wife had, and the 4 positions my kids were holding as well. Can you imagine? I was doing it right building 17 positions simultaneously, and manipulating the system to take advantage at every point possible.

    We have figured out how the game is played, and it is not played how they teach from stage. Michael is the master of understanding mitigating circumstances in MLM, and I seem to comprehend the math quite well. Combine the two, and you have a zero possibility of breaking even, unless of course, you are a “chosen” one.

  55. Vogel permalink
    October 25, 2011 2:49 pm

    Yep, you nailed it SYT. Now that times are getting tougher for these scammy MLMs, the “leaders” in the organizations will get even bolder and more desperate in their efforts to secure a piece of the shrinking pie; they’ll turn on each other and spill even more secrets; the scamminess of the organization will become even more transparent, and things will unravel quickly.

    If I were a gambling man, I’d be doubling down that TEAM/LIEF and Monavie will go swirling down the drain pipe in short order. And when they do, the first round of celebratory drinks will be on me. Cheers!

  56. switch permalink
    October 25, 2011 5:20 pm

    LMAO, Speak!

  57. Speak Your Truth permalink
    October 25, 2011 5:24 pm


    Don’t know what we would do without your humor….married to the serious stuff of course! I cannot help but lol…at most of your comments.


    I remember Berke Hedges being promoted heavily and I have a ‘stack’ of those books if you would want a couple for free…lol…They are pretty much worthless outside of the MLM…but of course Mr. Hedges explains he has made his living off the MLM industry for 24 years..I believe it said!

    Geez offered 11 positions..and how did you rate…lol..’special deals’ for ‘special people’? We did everything the ‘hard way’ and still created a decent sized team but then of course…Orrin and the PC liked our multiple thousands too… and the rest is history!

    Yes…I agree between You, Michael, Vogel and JS/LM…the industry doesn’t have a fighting chance…So would ya all just get on with it already and help out with flushing this ‘scammy mlm’ sooner…lol!

  58. Speak Your Truth permalink
    October 25, 2011 5:35 pm


    Do you suppose Numis came along and ‘offered a better special deal’ for Mr Hedges? Would make sense wouldn’t it..if he is promoting extra hard lately and it appears it really doesn’t matter as much with the bogus.. loosing pay plan’s… for those who are offered the ‘special deals’ especially if they are anything like the one Mr. Hedges got from LFVN…even though they apparently didn’t hold up on their end of the bargin.

  59. Speak Your Truth permalink
    October 25, 2011 5:40 pm

    Oops…sorry Burke…had a typo on his name. Also noticed I think I got the LFVN scam letters backwards in one of the posts…oh well… they are all the scammy same…lol 🙂

  60. Speak Your Truth permalink
    October 25, 2011 6:02 pm


    One last thing…lol…We did get your point with the “Binary Facebook Discussion”…that was not in vain. I am just having fun with the ‘special deals’…it’s either that or ‘postal’… but I much rather have fun..postal gets my blood pressure too high…lol

  61. Speak Your Truth permalink
    October 25, 2011 6:24 pm

    Oh and one last thing…lol..I know I said that last time…but I did want to say thanks to Brent, Michael (for turning down the ‘deals’) and all on here that have real integrity and didn’t sell your souls for a worthless piece of silver…even if it was A LOT of silver! Thanks to all who are supportive! This is a great supportive community of people whom I believe are the real hero’s and she-ro’s who are truly fighting the good fight!

  62. brent hansen permalink
    October 25, 2011 6:41 pm

    Hahaha…we are missionaries, not mercenaries.

  63. October 25, 2011 8:28 pm

    If this was duplicated elsewhere, my apologies. In my email today…

    “As a customer of Team you are being given the unique opportunity to participate in the pre-launch of a new business called LIFE. Below is a summary of the steps you will need to take anytime between Friday October 21st at 8:00 pm EST and Saturday October 29th at 11:00 pm EST. The Team customer relationships that exist remain unchanged through this process.

    Step 1
    For existing Team customers, you will need to login to the Team website, where you will see a new left margin option called LIFE. After selecting this option, you will be provided with three LIFE documents that you can either read online or print. The three documents are:

    The Independent Member Application and Agreement
    The Member Compensation Plan
    The Member Policies and Procedures

    In order to become a LIFE Member you must agree to the terms and information contained in these documents via electronic signature by checking the box. You will then be asked to complete the online enrollment form and pay for your Member enrollment ($35) and for your Business Starter Kit ($50 and 50PV), which totals $85 in the United States or Canada plus tax, shipping and handling. The Business Kit will be shipped on November 1st, 2011.

    Step 2
    You will next be given the option to subscribe to any combination of LIFE’s three distinct subscription products. They are:

    The LIFE Series – dedicated to helping people in each of the 8 F categories – Faith, Family, Finances, Fitness, Following, Freedom, Friendship, and Fun. 4 CDs and a book shipped each month. $50 and 50 PV
    The LLR (Launching a Leadership Revolution) Series – dedicated to helping people grow in their leadership ability. 4 CDs and a book shipped each month. $50 and 50 PV
    The AGO (All Grace Outreach) Series – dedicated to helping people grow spiritually. 1 CD and a book shipped each month. $25 and 25 PV

    The LLR and AGO Series CDs are no longer available through Team for those that have previously subscribed to those products. Your payment will be processed immediately and your first subscription shipment is scheduled for November 1st, 2011.

    Step 3
    Team has made some changes to their training system options that will result in some changes to current Team Training System customers.

    Team will now be offering one training system package with a couple optional add-ons. This change is effective with the November 7th shipping cycle and new forms will be posted on the Team website October 27th.

    Team Training System

    Consists of 2 Team CDs and 2 SOL CDs, designed to teach all facets of community building. The optional add-ons are:
    – Standing Order Monthly Seminar Tickets
    – DVD of the Month
    – The Spanish option will contain a book of the month
    – English
    – French
    – Spanish
    – DVD is English only.
    Distribution will continue to be every 2 weeks.

    All Team customers that are currently on the Basic, Power Player or Leadership packages will automatically be transitioned to the new option and will not be required to do anything. If you already take advantage of the Standing Order Ticket and or the DVD add-ons, you will see no interruption.

    Enrollment Summary

    All new accounts will have to wait to register with LIFE and Team on November 1st, 2011.
    Starting Friday October 21st at 8:00 pm EST existing Team customers can enroll with LIFE via the Team website. All existing Team customers who want to enroll with LIFE must do so prior to Saturday October 29th at 11:00 pm EST. At this time we are finalizing the pre-launch enrollment and will not be adding anyone who misses the deadline.
    Beginning November 1st, 2011 at 11:11 am EST enrollment in LIFE will be open for new accounts via the LIFE website at or”

  64. No Team For Me permalink
    October 25, 2011 10:22 pm

    Anyone catch the price increase? The 1st two package levels offered in Life – $50 each for 4 CD’s & 1 book a month. If the book is $18, that means the CD’s are $8 a piece!!!

    And with the volume of books Team/Life is purchasing, I’d be surprised if they are paying much more than a few bucks per book. Many of the books we used to get would even have the volume discounts actually listed in the back of the book. Some of them would show prices as low as $2-3 a book for volume purchases of 100 or so books. Imagine if you are purchasing several thousand books.

    Isn’t this the same Orrin who complained about the famous Jay VanAndel triple the cost markup?

    And has anyone read this new policies & proceedures???? Unbelievable!!!!! It basically states that Life may involuntarily take anyone’s business away from them based on Life’s interpretation of the rules at Life’s sole discretion. And everyone waives their right to class action case. The whole agreement has just about everything that Orrin himself complained about Amway/Quixtar having in their agreement. with the exception, Life is even more bold about printing their rights to take anyone’s business for any reason.

    If only these sheep would run this by an attorney before signing. I can’t imagine any attorney that would recommend signing that thing.

  65. brent hansen permalink
    October 25, 2011 10:46 pm

    I am here muddling through the 39 pages of legal jargon myself NTFM. What an amazingly iron-clad P&P. If you are thinking of joining, definitely seek legal counsel first, you are signing away your rights when you enroll.

  66. brent hansen permalink
    October 25, 2011 10:58 pm

    This section in particular is very troubling.

    9.2- Disciplinary Sanctions
    The Company may, in its discretion, take one or more of the following actions if a Member
    violates the Agreement or any common law duty, including but not limited to any applicable
    duty of loyalty; engages in any illegal, fraudulent, deceptive or unethical business conduct
    relating to the Member’s LIFE business; or commits any act or omission that, in the sole
    discretion of the Company, may damage the Company’s reputation or goodwill (such damaging act or omission need not be related to the Member’s LIFE business):

    • Issue a written warning or admonition;
    • Require the Member to take immediate corrective measures;
    • Impose a fine, which may be withheld from bonus and commission
    • Withhold one or more bonus and commission checks;
    • Suspend the Member’s Agreement for one or more pay periods;
    • Permanently or temporarily revoke or reduce the current and/or lifetime
    rank of a Member (which may subsequently be achieved again by the
    • Transfer or removal of some or all of a Member’s downline Members
    from his or her Downline Organization.
    • Terminate the Member’s Agreement;
    • Suspend and/or terminate the Member’s LIFE website or website access;

    So if I commit an act or omission that possibly even related to my Life business the company may enforce disciplinary sanctions at their sole discretion?

    There are a million scenarios that may or may not qualify you for disciplinary action, especially if it is at their sole discretion, this is scary. I think this is the “we want to reposition your group” loophole in the whole deal.

    Let’s see, Brent got busted for smoking pot, and it was in the newspaper, and it reflected badly on LIFE, so we need to shuffle up his business. Obviously he could no longer be an effective leader with a crime like that hanging over his head.

    Or, Brent is going through a nasty, highly publicized divorce, this reflects badly on LIFE, so lets move his team. Get the point? There are so many scenarios when the scenario is judged at “their discrection”.

    More to come!

  67. Speak Your Truth permalink
    October 25, 2011 11:47 pm


    Wait a stinkin minute…Orrin SAID he was going to have the “lowest prices in the industry”. “no ands ifs or buts about it!” Did he lie again? All books were between 12 & 15 bucks before..(not including the bulk order discount they GET) as NTFM pointed out…even at $15 bucks a book that would mean that is almost 9 bucks a Cd!!!

    Unbelievable the LIES…. Where are you guys getting this P&P… and What lawyer with a clear conscience (oxymoron in most cases) would even right up such a dictating contract?…That to me is tyrany.. in the free country we live can this be allowed?

    It honestly needs to be sent to the FTC, FBI, & DOJ!

    How dare them lecture on how much our freedoms are being taken away, our education system & the goverment is & bosses are evil..everyone ‘outside’ their scam is evil etc.

    I agree NTFM…The Hypocrisy is flat out unthinkable! If people don’t recognize they are tyrants running a DICTATORSHIP… and take it to an attorney first…then they WILL fall under the iron fist and be gagged!. Troy should be so proud…that’s his buddies, he’s patting on the back… enhancing the MLM farce of an industry! And as we have been stating all along they can steal your business any time they feel like it! Just as Vogel said they are getting more bold and the scamminess of the organization is becoming more transparent..and things will unravel quickly!

    These ruthless, greedy..dirtbags…should be ashamed of themselves and are blatantly going against EVERYTHING they (LIE) and say they stand for! I believe they have lost it or the higher power is allowing their hearts to be hardened, they have ignored their consciences for so long it is severed….they are like Pharaoh (how fitting).

    When they let freedom, free enterprise, captalism, missionaries.. or anything close, roll off their lips…they should be zapped..if their own conscience doesn’t crush them first! These guys have seriously became so desperate in hiding the dirty little secrets and are showing the WORLD just who they really are!

    The Jay factor..the 30% automatic off the top? I am not that good with Math, but it seems the their mark-up makes the jay factor look like squat… I seriously cannot gut who these guys have became or were all along and are now just being exsposed.. greedy.. hypocrisy!

    But as we all know what goes around comes around, you can take that to the bank and trust it..they are not immune!

  68. Speak Your Truth permalink
    October 25, 2011 11:56 pm


    That is shameful..and should be turned over to some authority as I mentioned above.

    But we all know who the ultimate authority is.. who is in charge, sees all, knows all, and is just! It is just a matter of time.

  69. October 26, 2011 5:04 am

    Speaking of major functions, I see that Orrin got a new Dodge Challenger shortly after the most recent one.

    Coincidence? Maybe. Looks like it was a profitable function for somebody!

    Congrats to all the TEAM members who contributed to Orrin’s dream.

    And will feel good about doing it until they run out of money…….

  70. Free to live life again! permalink
    October 26, 2011 6:43 am

    Common Sense: you wrote:
    100% of people who shop at walmart and get gym memberships will lose money. Oh the horror. Even though they will get products from walmart and some of the might use thier gym membership 100% will lose money.

    Of course Walmart makes money off of us! duh! A business is in business to make money! And that’s what you are told when you sign up for your own Team business, that you will make money – but the fact of the matter is, you probably won’t. They tell you to dream build and listen to 3-4 CD’s a day and “you can do it!” with the knowledge that you most likely, will not make it. And you know what? I could spend money at Walmart on books that help my marriage or finances or faith and I could probably get them a lot cheaper through Walmart than the Team. It’s not necessarily the fact that Team makes money off of people to me, it’s HOW much they make and HOW they LIE to people telling them THEY don’t make anything off the system, how your team can get stolen if your PC doesn’t like the decisions you are making – how the top leaders are LYING and MANIPULATING the “little people” giving them a sense of false hope! And NO! False hope is not better than none! I want to live my life for Christ, not a nice car, or a big house or vacations. I do want that stuff, but that comes AFTER God, through His blessings. In the Team, you put that stuff first. Oh sure, they tell you God first then family then Team, but it’s not…….Team is all about material stuff and the Majors!! Oh, with all their stinkin tools and how often they change the tools so you have to buy more tools within 3 months of already buying new tools – this past major for sure was a gold mine for them…everyone picking up the new life stuff… thanks….I’ll buy books on amazon for cheap, listen to lectures online for free or get cd’s/books at the library from real leaders and associate with my church family and other friends who really would be there for me in a time of trouble.

    Isn’t man’s chief end to glorify God? That’s what we were all put on this earth for. Some will glorify Him and some will glorify themselves but in the end, everyone meets their Maker and they have to answer for their unethical decisions. I, for one, can not understand how a so called “Christian” can be in this business with the knowledge of the unethical stuff that has surfaced. I still have “Christian” friends who know about some unethical things going on, but choose to ignore it and say that people are self-deceived…….As for me and my household, we shall serve the Lord.

  71. Speak Your Truth permalink
    October 26, 2011 6:50 am


    “You all need a LIFE” …came out of the major real proud of donating to O ’cause’..I mean bank account..paid $125 just for the ticket and said it was awesome. He/She said they would do it forever..even if he/she never gets paid…and then said he was sorry our lives were so depressed …lol

    Hope he/she comes back in a year from now, that’s if his finances can take the hit for that long and re-read his comments or if he hurts the LieF reputation in anyway, or isn’t loyal enough he might just get his whole downline transfered, removed, fined, suspended or terminated according to their P&P.

  72. Speak Your Truth permalink
    October 26, 2011 6:58 am


    Do you think it is worthy to put the comments about the Lief’s P&P in a post all of it’s own? I am not shocked at all with this except I don’t know HOW they can get away with it and it validates what we have been saying all along.

  73. October 26, 2011 7:59 am

    I would want to have the complete document to post in a separate entry on this site. Someone should send it my way via email

  74. Speak Your Truth permalink
    October 26, 2011 8:04 am

    Brent did mention it was 36 pages. I hope someone would send it to you.

  75. October 26, 2011 8:04 am

    Mattjer22 – I was reading your email post comment, and from what I understand, it looks like existing TEAM members don’t have a choice BUT to join LIFE, am I correct? So basically they’re paying all over again enrollment fees as if they’re new members. If that’s the case, Woodward and his motley crew are pulling a fast one at the expense of people’s pocketbooks. Disgusting, unethical, greedy, and a few choice words as well!!! Good grief.

    Oh dear G-d, please let me be wrong on this 😦

  76. Peachy permalink
    October 26, 2011 8:11 am

    Can’t help but wonder if filing for bankruptcy is a good enough reason for disciplinary sanctions to be removed or lose your team? Or are you still able to teach from stage and in counciling sessions the finance portion of the 8 F’s? They want to have it work
    both ways.

  77. Speak Your Truth permalink
    October 26, 2011 8:16 am


    They tout there is NO SECURITY on a JOB?…Wonder how secure the one’s who filed bankruptcy and Guzzardo’s who deliberately defaulted on his property feel…have to say not too good for the reputation. Also, another question who can do all this to the PC for ruining the reputation? Who gets to shuffle and steal their teams?

    Are they still using all the promises of passive, willable, ongoing, and the pipeline income? Are they also telling people when they show them the plan that they can make 2-3,ooo dollars per month?

  78. Speak Your Truth permalink
    October 26, 2011 8:18 am

    Peachy~ I was posting at the same time and said basicallly the same thing! 🙂

  79. Speak Your Truth permalink
    October 26, 2011 8:21 am


    Are they charging existing TEAM people who were already in for the new LieF as a new business? This cannot be possible is it?

  80. October 26, 2011 8:25 am

    Read up to Mattjer’s post, I think it was moderated then Amthrax approved it, because I had to scroll up a bit. It was an actual email he got from TEAM about the new LIFE busi9ness. It does look like existing members have to sign up (indirectly said) for LIFE and pay for the enrollment fees all over again.

  81. October 26, 2011 8:30 am

    This part of Matjer22’s post freaked me out –

    ***In order to become a LIFE Member you must agree to the terms and information contained in these documents via electronic signature by checking the box. You will then be asked to complete the online enrollment form and pay for your Member enrollment ($35) and for your Business Starter Kit ($50 and 50PV), which totals $85 in the United States or Canada plus tax, shipping and handling. The Business Kit will be shipped on November 1st, 2011.***

  82. Speak Your Truth permalink
    October 26, 2011 9:53 am

    Thanks Izzy and mattjer/22!

    Right there in black and white they had already registered people Oct. 21,2011 existing and new by Nov. 29.

    This is unconscionable how these cons are getting away with this;

    They are charging AGAIN for all those that had already paid and have been in for some, years and years paying for their lifestyles..but yet the team relationships remain the same?

    In other words NOTHING changed except the NAME to avoid the Truth..and they are Charging Everyone Again?.. Another registration fee and if I remember correctly in their ‘kit’ comes the LLR BOOK that has been forced down first through ‘a promotional game’ by the tune of 100,000 books according to Orrin and then forced it on those SAME people on Book of Month and NOW yet again they are forcing those same people to re-purchase the Book AGAIN! That is flat out greedy, outrageous and unconscionable.

    Oh how I await the day when they reap what they have sown and doing to the unsuspecting and anyone foolish enough to sign that (Hilter type regimin) your every right away and are agreeing to allow them to steal your teams after you have busted your but and brought your family and friends in… for whatever reason they choose.. and are willing to be gagged…are flat out either crazy or stupid. But who reads a 36 page P&P and they are giving it their best YOU don’t!

    Although it is the same thing they did with the first contract that they never came up with until 7 or 8 years AFTER (what Troy FAILED to investigate or SEE) everyone had already built tens of thousands of people and brought them hundreds of millions of dollars!

    They trap you, own your business, and control you, all for their benefit..and their TRUE colors are being exsposed in the brightest light of the day around the world wide web!

    The most hilarious part.. is they are exsposing themselves and confirming everything we have already warned people of way before it showed up in black and white!…lol
    They are self-destructing and can only blame themselves!


    You said you got the email ‘today’. I am assuming it was Oct. 25th when you posted. Did they send this to you before Oct. 21, 2011?

  83. Speak Your Truth permalink
    October 26, 2011 2:20 pm


    LOL….I agree….What a great day to be FREE indeed! It is too sad for all those new and other good people who have no clue they are trapped, gagged, and controlled!

    Another thing I heard the Book in the kit is the LieF (scrap) Book that is extremely pricy for some pictures and stories and it is not the LLR in the kit. I had posted something earlier about this but there is no differencet! They have been pushing and promoting that and it is a now a way to force it on everyone to try and get it to rank too! Can anyone verify this?

    Let us know if any of you take this to a contract attorney and see what they say about this P&P and what does the comp plan say? Or how about the DOJ, FTC, FBI? 🙂

  84. victor permalink
    October 26, 2011 3:19 pm

    How do I get my Dad out of this? What is the best argument to knock him back to his senses. He is 52 years old, a retired fireman and has been going at this crap for near 20 years and won’t give it up. He just went to the damned Ohio thing and has begun talking to all my sisters and I know he wants to talk to me.

  85. Hershall permalink
    October 26, 2011 3:44 pm

    Oh My! I remember the Lung Busters story! (Lung Busters or 4 Laps) It was my first clue that Orrin was a total wing nut! Who is that bent on beating a friend in a “friendly” challenge. The message was supposed to be about overcoming and prevailing through obstacles and pass your limits. But the lesson I learned was never ever let a challenge go unanswered even in you might kill yourself. Dig up the recording – He’s psycho!

  86. das permalink
    October 26, 2011 4:15 pm

    Team supporters,

    We are not here to rescue you. You display the same blind faith that is common in any cult, “I will be in this for the rest of my life” blah blah blah. You just went to a seminar where you laughed, cried, and got caught up in the emotion and hype. You are part of “something” that is gonna make a difference and change the world. There is no saving you because you choose to ignore the facts stated here. We too were once blind, but now we can see.

    We are here to inform your victims (relatives, friends, and neighbors) of the scam you are trying to con them into.

    Scam: A fraudulent business scheme; a swindle.

    Con: To swindle (a victim) by first winning his or her confidence; dupe.

  87. Speak Your Truth permalink
    October 26, 2011 4:36 pm


    I do remember that..and your summary is hilarious! If you think that was psycho..then there is one that tops that, it is on youtube and on here somewhere, but it is a talk O & Laurie did for MV and it is called ‘Diamond Eyes’. Something snapped..just And even more scary and psycho is the new P&P!


    Great post!

  88. October 26, 2011 5:52 pm

    Victor – Sadly, most people who’s that steeped in like your dad is don’t drop out of TEAM till they hit rock bottom 😦

  89. October 26, 2011 5:55 pm

    Anyone here still has that Merchants of Deception link (with the free downloadable PDF file) of the book? That might help Victor understand more as well.

  90. brent hansen permalink
    October 26, 2011 6:44 pm

    Mesha, I have been in the industry for 17 years this November. Startup retention rates (usually higher than a seasoned company) average around 15%, and with a seasoned company are much less than that. The reason why retention is so low is because no one is making money.

    You ask this, “The average amount of money a person makes who has been involved for 2-5 years? ” Longevity does not determine how much money you will make. I know people who have been actively engaged with their companies for 10-15 years and still cannot cover the cost of their autoship. Unfortunately there are so many uncontrollable mitigating factors that determine whether or not you will succeed, or earn at all.

    Most companies pre-determine who will be the ones to earn, since mathematically, only a small percentage can earn from the compensation plan. Check this link, and it should answer your question, and give you the ability to draw your own educated conclusion.

  91. October 26, 2011 6:37 pm

    @Mesha – I just posted a guest reader letter on the dubious “guru” claims of Orrin Woodward.

    If you’re unable to pay for the LIFE and TEAM tools cost, I would advise not joining. You can find many of the books on self-improvement in the library. Half of the monthly CDs are meant to pump you up emotionally (i.e. “I was poor and broke, but now I’m not because of this business…”).

    If you can’t get straight answers from the organization, don’t you hear alarm bells ringing in your head and see warning signs in front of you?

    I would argue that the retention rate is very bad in TEAM. Remember, they came from Amway/Quixtar where at one point they had 60,000 members. As little as one or two years ago, that number dwindled to 10-15,000 people. Where did the other 45,000-50,000 people go?

    In MonaVie, it has been mathematically shown that the majority of people don’t even make enough money to pay for the juice each month. Add the System costs (tools, functions and tickets), the numbers get even worse. I do not see this changing that much with LIFE TEAM. Other people who were more intimately familiar with TEAM will better be able to answer your question about money.

  92. K. Crukley permalink
    October 26, 2011 7:58 pm

    RE: “Mesha Evans”

    I can tell you honestly, I have no other intentions besides to tell the TRUTH. I’m not a whiner; I wouldn’t consider myself a ‘quitter’ or a ‘loser’. I have a successful business, I earn well over the average US income running my own conventional business. And let me tell you, the word “conventional” is NOT a dirty word. I work approximately 20-25 hours per week and enjoy lots of FREE time with my family. TEAM does a great job convincing TEAM members that there is only 3 options in life… a J.O.B (just over broke), a “Conventional” business (long hrs, hard work, huge failure rate, no success etc) and of course THE TEAM. I have no reason to talk lies about the TEAM or any other “business”. I simply want to save someone the struggle and pain I experienced.

    I’ve been involved with TEAM (Amway/Quixtar, Monavie) for over 12 years. I’ve seen it all. I sat in Round Table meetings with Orrin, Chris, Bill, and Tim at the TEAM head office in Flint. (I love the feeling you get when you walk in the front door and it’s enclosed, you have to peek through the wall of fibreglass to ask the receptionist to unlock the door??? Maybe ANGRY ex-TEAM’s visited the office and in order to keep everyone safe, you need to be buzzed in). It’s great when you look at all the RTs car’s in the parking lot, everyone is trying to impress everyone else with 2001-2008 “luxury” cars. The walls in the boardroom look hilarious… they had many pictures of RTs on the walls and when those RTs quit, they’d take them down so you can see so many holes in the walls (perhaps with all the RTs at the last function… the walls will become full again?? 🙂

    In all seriousness, when you read “Webelieved” post… it can sound to someone who has no experience with this organization and has been approached that, yeah I kind of believe his post but it sounds like he’s slamming TEAM… is it REALLY a cult?? Because these people seemed normal, made some sense or as you said, your friend joined and has a good head on his shoulders and now you’re confused and thinking, wow! This friend is sharp! If he thinks it’s a good idea it must be…

    …My question to you is… do you think you can make money at this “business” and NOT be sharp?
    Not possible, YOU HAVE TO BE SHARP TO MAKE MONEY AT THIS BUSINESS. You have to ATTRACT people, make them LIKE you, make them TRUST YOU, and convince them in 30 minutes to get into business with you (along with the information you leave behind). This organization puts people into the TEAM based on systems. Systems are used in EVERY SINGLE COMPONENT OF CALLING, SHOWING THE PLAN, and FOLLOWING UP AND SIGNING SOMEONE UP. Everything is used, INFLUENCE, POSITIVE PRESSURE FROM THE BOTTOM UP – “Hey I’ve got 3 people to put under you, but you need to sign up before you miss out!”… IT’S A SCIENCE. IT’S BEYOND HAVING A GOOD PRODUCT AND/OR SERVICE TO OFFER SOMEONE. If it was this simple, or if the business was AS GOOD to get involved and see results as they want you to believe, why aren’t MORE people involved??? That’s the magic question.
    The real money starts at RT… but if we all knew the REAL REAL REAL REAL REAL REAL TRUTH about the current debt each RT is in, and how much money they each had to spend to get to where they are (and I’m ONLY taking about money, not sacrificed time with family or lost opportunities) then I truly believe NO ONE would join. I’m speaking from my OWN PERSONAL EXPERIENCES and I have facts to back it up.
    I can honestly tell you from my experience… I’ve gone through THOUSANDS of personal names on my many lists. I got to the point where I didn’t have ONE SINGLE FRIEND, FAMILY MEMBER, WORK ACQUIESCENCE, and OR CASUAL PERSON WHICH I MET AT THE VIDEO STORE OR GROCERY STORE THAT I COULD CALL.
    I had to get in my car and “HUNT” for new personals when I wasn’t digging depth off of someone’s list… AND this is EXACTLY what the “Leader” above your friend wants the most. They want to get to your friends list and hopefully your list ASAP so they can put someone below you before you QUIT. BEFORE you realize what’s involved. Been there done that ONE THOUSAND TIMES. You honestly start to feel like EVERY SINGLE INTERACTION WITH EVERY SINGLE PERSON WITHIN 5 FEET OF YOU IS A PROSPECT. It felt weird around everyone after TEAM … I felt like I didn’t NEED something from everyone.

    When I followed TEAM and left AMWAY… I lost almost ten thousand dollars in bonuses that Amway didn’t want to pay me for all the hard work I did. So did most of the leaders on TEAM. When I decided to leave TEAM… after years of building my “business”… instead of collecting my RESIDUAL INCOME… which was promised from day one, “do the work once and then do what you want to do with the rest of your life!”… My TEAM quickly received calls from my up line and was told lies about me. Lies as to why I left, but not the truth. They were transferred to another leg and my income dropped overnight. Of course many of my “leaders” wanted to know what happened, but I decided out of good character not to “spoil” or “steel” their dreams so I said nothing. I later found out that they were told that I was having marital problems and my parents were sick???? AND my PC was coordinating the LIES.

    ONE more point. Why didn’t Orrin sue FORBES magazine for “Libel” for “Slandering” him in the FORBES magazine article (

    Was it not true? Or maybe he didn’t want to attract any more publicity??

    I think MOST companies would sue if it wasn’t true. Maybe Orrin should clarify this topic on his blog… I’ve never seen a rebuttal about this article. Certainly makes you wonder.

    What about Money Week (UK financial magazine) –

    I’m just stating the facts and you can decide based on both sides. Isn’t this what it’s all about? Bringing the TRUTH to America, waking AMERICA up with a Revolution, a Financial Revolution. I love the comments of Team members after the major… “I don’t care if I make another dollar in this business for the rest of my life, because I know I’m doing the right thing!”……………… WOW! Is this a business? It sounds more like a social cause with the intention of changing AMERICA…. almost sounds like OBAMA’s campaign promises… “I promise to ‘CHANGE’ America!” Change America is right! But maybe NOT in the way that MOST Americans thought.

    Real thoughts to ponder. Get the facts. Some people on this site have REALLY given this a go, no jokes. Some people on this site were tight with some of the PC’s. These are not all “critics” but people that put THOUSANDS and I do mean THOUSANDS of hours into hitting this business HARD… and the TRUTH was exposed.

  93. brent hansen permalink
    October 26, 2011 8:10 pm

    Great post K. Crukley, you hit the nail right on the head. The truth is simply not debatable, you can twist it, cover it, manipulate it, but in the end it hasn’t changed one iota.

  94. das permalink
    October 27, 2011 1:33 am

    Thank you K kruckley for your honesty. Great post!

  95. Voice of Reason permalink
    October 27, 2011 7:40 am

    I just wanted to take a moment to personally thank everyone who posts here. My husband was recently recruited to join the ranks of LIFE. Your comments here will help me convice him what a mistake he could be making.

  96. Speak Your Truth permalink
    October 27, 2011 7:56 am


    If I am not mistaken that goes directly against the FTC, I will have to re-read it!

    Voice of Reason~

    Glad we could be of help. 🙂

  97. Murray Lees permalink
    October 27, 2011 8:17 am

    @common sense
    October 24, 2011 9:54 pm

    Careful now…Big Daddy Pastor Woodward will sanction your @ss so quick if he found out you were, as per “ Responding to Negative Posts [of the LIE-f Policies & Procedures Statement] Do not converse with one who places a negative post against you, other independent Members, or LIFE. Report negative posts to the Company at corpsupport@the-life- Responding to such negative posts often simply fuels a discussion with someone carrying a grudge that does not hold themselves to the same high standards as LIFE, and therefore damages the reputation and goodwill of LIFE.”

    Good thing you used a moniker…opposite of what the P&P require of you. You just totally contradicted everything ‘positive’ you posted about the LIE-f “opportunity” by not following the rules of the wonderful, life-altering, money making machine of a “business” you proport in case you missed that litte tiddbit.


  98. switch permalink
    October 27, 2011 8:57 am

    “Mesha Evans” says-

    “…..but am getting fustrated with a lack of clear answers coming from this organization.”

    Well…..imagine that. That doesn’t sound familiar at all now does it, gang? LOL.

  99. October 27, 2011 2:12 pm

    I’d like too respond to Mesha’s statement “This said friend has a pretty good head on their shoulders and I trust them…” To be honest, Mesha, everyone gets deceived, no matter how trustworthy you are. My sponsor was a lady who owned a conventional business for years, plus she earned a business degree in university. She know my husband for 20 years, me for 10, was involved in a local food kitchen/sunday service program with my husband and went to church with us for a long time. She is also a feminist, and doesn’t bow to men’s authority very well. I trusted her and went by her credibility and personality when I joined TEAM. But TEAM has changed her, unfortunately. She was no longer the feminist that I knew previously because she was so submissive to “Orrin and Claude” – yes, calling them by their first names as if she knew them personally, wanting that Brady fella to autograph a book, etc. Instead of thinking for herself, she was parroting off what the TEAM leaders were teaching.

    In a conventional business, where a person owns their own business and developed a good reputation in their community, you CAN go by your instinct and their credibility. If they’re trustworthy, you CAN trust them because they’re the ones that makes up their OWN policies. In an MLM business you CAN’T go by a person’s credibility because they don’t own that business nor do they make their own policies. They’re operating under SOMEONE ELSE’s business/policies. So really, what you have to ask yourself is that do you trust the owner of TEAM or Monavie? What are TEAM’s and Monavie’s policies? What track records do TEAM and Monavie have? Not by what track record you SPONSOR (your friend) have, as your friend has no control over what credibility Woodward and Larsen have as individuals and as business owners.

  100. K. Crukley permalink
    October 27, 2011 5:19 pm

    RE: velizabethwhite

    You’ve been active on this site for a long time and it shows your consistent…

    I hate to go off topic but I think someone needs to comment on your comment…

    “calling them by their first names as if she knew them personally, wanting that Brady fella to autograph a book”… what is she suppose to call them, “Hi Mr Hamilton”.

    Honestly, I don’t relate to you. And that is OK because I don’t relate to everyone, nor should you relate to me. If a women can’t call a man by his first name because it means she’s NOT a feminist, or she can’t ask for a signature of an author (C. Brady or Joe Blow) for fear that he’ll have power over her then this mentality in itself is STRANGE.

    Look, lets keep the topic on the topic. This isn’t a FEMINIST website no more than it’s about KNITTING WOOLLEN BREASTS.

    Thanks velizabethwhite for the post and your point about ‘Conventional Business’ is spot on. Keep up the good work!


  101. Speak Your Truth permalink
    October 27, 2011 5:42 pm

    Murray Lee~


    K. Crukely~

    Izzy I am sure will answer for herself.

    But I think The point of that was she was saying that her upline used to think for herself and the team changed that and as we all know the team women must be submissive. Also, Izzy is from a background she has stated why she calls people Mr. & Mrs. out of respect because that is the way she was taught. Izzy you can correct me but I remember you making a post on this.

  102. October 27, 2011 5:42 pm

    K Crukley – I’m only stating the change in her personality, how her previous (and non-TEAM) personality was, and how it changed significently when I was with her at TEAM meetings. I’ve noticed such a stark difference. I know most people would get authors to autograph their books, but it’s not my upline’s personality to do so. I also know that when referring to people we don’t know, we normally use the first and last name like singer Michael Jackson or author Stephen King. My upline didn’t know the RTs and PC members personally, yet she (along with other TEAM members would say “Claude” and “Orrin” in tones as if they knew them personally and work with them personally, instead of referring to them as normal people would (outside of TEAM) like Orrin Woodward and Claude Hamiliton. (you can tell by the “familiarity” tone of their voice) These are 2 examples of how I noticed her feminist, assertive, think-for-myself-not-what-others-tell-me type personality would change to submissive and allowing the TEAM system to do the thinking for her. I would also add that her personality is very strong outside of TEAM. To me, this is a perfect picture of brainwashing. Here is a pro-higher-education woman dissing the university education!!! Crazy!

  103. Speak Your Truth permalink
    October 27, 2011 5:49 pm


    I am following you train of thought now. I thought you meant it is a disrespect. And you are right this is how many use this for credibility as if they talk with Orrin and PC and know them personally, it is deceptive.

  104. Speak Your Truth permalink
    October 27, 2011 5:53 pm

    Very Misleading….but then that is what they do best!

  105. Speak Your Truth permalink
    October 27, 2011 5:56 pm

    These P&P codes are sounding more and more like Scientology everytime I read someone using them!

  106. October 27, 2011 6:36 pm

    Since I didn’t know who the owners of TEAM or Monavie were, nor have I even heard of the 2 businesses, all I had was the credibility of my upline with her business degree and the fact she had her own business. With her background, I assumed she knew what she was doing and that MV and TEAM were trustworthy. I did think she knew Woodward and his minions at first, until I caught on to the mentality of “instant friendship” and deception of familiarity after only a few monthly seminars and opens.

  107. October 27, 2011 6:37 pm

    By then I was already signed up, on autoship, and really wanted to get my family off of welfare 😦

  108. Mamamilk permalink
    October 27, 2011 6:50 pm

    Thank you for this site. I had a high school friend contact me that she wanted to talk to my husband and I about something that was going on. We have only recently reconnected and I was suspicious since she did not say much on the phone and wanted both of us to be here. As it turned out her hubby took too much time making small talk with my hubby that they ran short on time and my husband left for work. I got a 15 min. talk about pretty much nothing while my friend chased my kids. The ploy…making a better life for my children. Her husband stopped after the 15 min. and said he didn’t think this was for us; we seem pretty content where we are in life. Thank goodness for being secure and strong. It was uncomfortable at best.

  109. Speak Your Truth permalink
    October 27, 2011 7:18 pm


    Thanks for sharing your experience and it is music to our ears to hear the site has helped.
    Your friends are going by the book. That is a very common and taught tactic; they want both husband and wife there so it gives them a better change one of you will get excited and fall for it. Sad part is there was a motive for your high school friend to get a hold of you and chances are it wasn’t to reunite. Another tactic they tell you to contact all your friends past and present, family, coworkers etc.

    Unfortunately the business ends up controlling all of your life and everyone becomes a ‘prospect’ for the business. Also when he stopped after 15 min. and said he didn’t think this was for you; that is another tactic they use called ‘posturing’. In other words, they make you feel like they ‘have what you want’ but aren’t going to make it look like they ‘need you’..Rather they want you to get the feeling ‘you need’ the business.

    They teach having posture on a CD and have a specific ‘contacting script’ when they contact you. Good luck. 🙂

  110. Vogel permalink
    October 27, 2011 8:32 pm

    Hmmm. Posturing eh? And I thought at first that the guy was just being nice and letting them off the hook after giving a halfhearted sales pitch. Sneaky! Glad we have so many great minds here who know every last trick in the book. Good catch.

  111. Speak Your Truth permalink
    October 27, 2011 8:51 pm

    Lmao…It is nothing to be proud of…quite manipulating isn’t it.

  112. Speak Your Truth permalink
    October 27, 2011 8:58 pm

    I appreciate that Vogel and I am ashamed by these things we did…and most of them are very effective once you get good at it. Honestly, it is taught like it is just a part of the process and you don’t even stop to think about how manipulating it is. You become so tunnel visioned and ‘goal’ oriented you forget they are real people sometimes. Shameful.. and Sneaky…lol 🙂

  113. Speak Your Truth permalink
    October 27, 2011 9:19 pm

    To get people to understand how to posture is…

    “You got the Cookie”…You give it to them and then take it they will come to you. This also works when contacting people and they ask too many then posture them with..”hey doesn’t sound like your interested at this time.. if you change your mind..give me a call.” Remember ‘you got the cookie!’

    I have to say this really messes up a person’s mind..I could never go into legitimate sales because I would feel too much like I would be manipulating..but oh I could probably sell ice to an eskimo…lol

  114. victor permalink
    October 27, 2011 11:02 pm

    Thank you for all the information. I have begun reading up on cults and how to best approach the situation with him. I know some type of dialogue will be happening between my dad and i. He went to the convention in Ohio. As soon as he came back he let one of my sisters and her husband(who he signed up 2years ago) know he was going to make a try at the rest of my siblings. I have since found out that my older sister had succumb to the business. He text me and said he wants to talk with me. I asked him what about. He responded, that if i had some time to talk that he would explain what he wants to talk to me about. I know it’s the damn business. It only goes to show that he has to be deceptive to come talk to me about it. I want to have it all out with him on what he is doing, what this has done to him and my mom( which is a miracle in itself that they are still together she has been a non-participant for 18 of the 20 years of the business) and their future. They can’t afford to hit rock-bottom. With having my sisters in though, I don’t know how he will back out, they have trusted him and for him to see his error he will lose more trust. I know I must do this the right way.

  115. K. Crukley permalink
    October 28, 2011 4:30 am

    RE: velizabethwhite

    My bad, I misunderstood. I thought you meant when your friend is standing in front of Orrin and you expected her to have a conversation with him by speaking his first and last name. That would be WEIRD. Now I realize what you meant… when she is talking to other people and referring to Orrin as a person she knows… to use a person’s first and last name. I get it, and I agree. I think I misunderstood because I’ve been face to face with these ‘leaders’ for many years and I’ve only ever called them by their first names.

    Thanks for clarifying and good post.

  116. October 28, 2011 5:55 am

    Okay, I finally found Eric Shreibler (sp?) ‘s book Merchants of Deception. This is about an ex-Amway distributor, but his team was involved in a strikingly similar tools scam like TEAM/LIFE. Victor, please read this, even me, with only 7 months under my belt and not getting any higher than a new kid on the block, can recognise the similarities between TEAM and the team Eric Shreibler guy was involved with. I’d also like to encourage everyone to read this, good info. (I think it was either Will, Webelieved, or Speak Your Truth that originally posted it)

    K Crukley – no problem, mate 🙂

  117. humiliated permalink
    October 28, 2011 7:50 am

    Webelieved, great post! You sure have been doing your CULT homework! So much love and “heart” in your words, sometimes I forget to have compassion for those that are so fervantly involved with TEAM, forgetting that they been IMMERSED in the INDOCTRINATION through no real fault of their own. My impulse would be to scream “DON”T YOU KNOW THIS IS A CULT! YOU HAVE SOLD YOUR SOUL TO THE DEVIL WITH NO FINANCIAL RETURN!!” But we all know that won’t work.

    Victor, I have a suggestion but I am sure that you have already thought of this, I don’t know if you have “access” to your older sister, but maybe you should “practice” on her before she gets too far in? Then you will also have an ally besides your mother (and it sounds like your father dismisses her opinions on TEAM, for whatever reason…she must be a saint!).

    Twenty years is a lot of years to be swimming in this pool of lies…I really hope that you are able to save him from drowning in them.You have a long road ahead & I agree with Webelieved, educate yourself thoroughly before you take action.

  118. Speak Your Truth permalink
    October 28, 2011 11:33 am

    I agree humiliated & webelieved….great advice! 🙂 There is nothing more FREE than the FREEDOM of the MIND!!!! 🙂

  119. November 1, 2011 8:46 am

    One of my best friends is obsessed with all this nonsense. He attended this meeting, traveling from Maryland to Ohio on the little money he makes to fill his head with the same false hope this company has been providing him since 2005. 6 years and nothing has changed. He’s tried multiple times to get me to go to all these functions with him, but I have a pretty keen eye for bullshit. It was just sad though watching him come back from the function last week with all this false hope in his eyes. He just doesn’t understand the true concept of all this it seems. Any way to get through to someone who just won’t listen…or is trying to make that point with them rather moot?

  120. webelieved permalink
    December 3, 2011 6:41 pm

    MD- sorry I think we all missed your post. It is hard to get them to open thier eyes because I believe they are under thought reform. If you really care I would recommend reading Combatting Cult Mind Control. You can help him if you educate yourself. Good Luck!


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