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What’s The Difference: LIFE vs. TEAM, MonaVie vs. TEAM, Quixtar vs. TEAM, Amway vs. TEAM

November 7, 2011

John Graff, downline from Policy Council member Dan Hawkins, wrote a post back on November 2, 2011, titled, “ vs – What’s the difference?”. In the post, he attempts to describe the differences between the “new” LIFE business and TEAM, neglecting to mention that many of the tools, books, and CDs being sold in LIFE were originally being sold under the TEAM banner.

Given his upline’s past affiliations with Amway/Quixtar and MonaVie, let’s look at John’s post through the prism of the past. Here’s a brief recap of John’s uplines’ (Orrin Woodward and Dan Hawkins) MLM history:

  1. 1990s: Orrin Woodward began his Amway sales career in Dexter Yager’s InterNet organization in Amway.
  2. 1990s-2000s: At one point1, Orrin breaks off from Yager’s tool organization to form Team of Destiny in order to get a share of the profits from the sale of marketing and motivational tools.
  3. 2000s: Team of Destiny renames itself to the more generic TEAM to combat the growing number of critics on the Internet.
  4. 2007: TEAM and Orrin Woodward get kicked out of Amway for shady prospecting and signing up practices. Orrin Woodward, on the other hand, claimed he quit Amway/Quixtar voluntarily after years of trying to “help” them fix their pricing model.
  5. 2007-2010: Orrin Woodward sues Amway, calling it a pyramid scheme. Amway files its own counter-suit against Woodward and several TEAM leaders.
  6. 2008: Orrin Woodward and TEAM hook up with MonaVie. Orrin claims MonaVie ranked first in his benchmarking of various multi-level marketing companies. TEAM members begin consuming $40/bottle of MonaVie fruit juice.
  7. 2010: Amway, MonaVie and Orrin Woodward hug and promise not to say any bad things about each other anymore in an out-of-court settlement that ends their lawsuits.
  8. 2011: Orrin Woodward and TEAM launch LIFE, a multi-level marketing company that sells tools — books, CDs and apparel — that were previously branded as TEAM. LIFE downplays the past three years (since no one except for those at the very top are making any money via MonaVie). TEAM/LIFE members are not actively encouraged to drink $40 bottle of MonaVie fruit juice.

Here’s John’s original post, re-posted from his website with no changes (as of November 6, 2011): vs – What’s the difference?

Have you ever been excited and confused at the same time? Many people are thrilled with the opportunity of what can offer, yet don’t see what has to do with it. I totally understand how one might feel. As a matter of fact, I was so skeptical of how this all worked, that for several months I avoided doing my ‘due diligence’, regarding this group called “The Team.” My complacency regarding what the Team was all about, just led to more speculation and confusion. But over time, thanks to a patient, loving wife and the understanding of these strangers (team mates), that she was getting to know that were helping her, I gradually came to understand how it all fits together.

What Orrin Woodward and Chris Brady along with the founders of LIFE have figured out, is that in order to have a successful business that runs without you constantly ‘being there’, requires a proven, franchise-like system of operation. Business owners that have been highly successful in those type of endeavors, focus on just 2 things: leverage and duplication.

So; The life business is ‘opportunity’, like the food that we purchase at a fast food restaurant. That’s what the life information is: its correct brain-food for the masses to improve their lives in multiple categories, that provide income to the business owner. Sooooo, the LIFE business is the “supply” side of the business.

The Team is the “support” side of the business. It provides a proven, effective, duplicate-able way of training all of us to be that successful business owner, with built-in leverage points for us all to utilize. The more accurately and efficiently we use the training/education offered by the team, the more systematic (and thus faster) our business grows! As that happens, the more the system does the work, and the less you need to do!

The way it all works best is to build a community as Micheal Dell taught so many years ago, but only Woodward and Brady have figured out how to build, with long-term sustainable success, a true community.

So; to sum up, what Penny and I do for a living – is build communities of people through a proven system provided by the Team. That community then picks and chooses through the LIFE business, what areas of information they want improvement in. This in-turn generates revenues back those who actually build the community! I sincerely hope that makes sense.

God bless, John Graff

Now, let’s turn back the clock three years… to MonaVie, with my changes in bold below:

MonaVie vs – What’s the difference?

Have you ever been excited and confused at the same time? Many people are thrilled with the opportunity of what MonaVie can offer, yet don’t see what has to do with it. I totally understand how one might feel. As a matter of fact, I was so skeptical of how this all worked, that for several months I avoided doing my ‘due diligence’, regarding this group called “The Team.” My complacency regarding what the Team was all about, just led to more speculation and confusion. But over time, thanks to a patient, loving wife and the understanding of these strangers (team mates), that she was getting to know that were helping her, I gradually came to understand how it all fits together.

What Orrin Woodward and Chris Brady along with the founders of MonaVie have figured out, is that in order to have a successful business that runs without you constantly ‘being there’, requires a proven, franchise-like system of operation. Business owners that have been highly successful in those type of endeavors, focus on just 2 things: leverage and duplication.

So; MonaVie is ‘opportunity’, like the food that we purchase at a fast food2 restaurant. That’s what MonaVie is: it’s fruit juice that improves your health and wellness, that provide income to the business owner. Sooooo, the MonaVie business is the “supply” side of the business.

The Team is the “support” side of the business. It provides a proven, effective, duplicate-able way of training all of us to be that successful business owner, with built-in leverage points for us all to utilize. The more accurately and efficiently we use the training/education offered by the team, the more systematic (and thus faster) our business grows! As that happens, the more the system does the work, and the less you need to do!

The way it all works best is to build a community as Michael Dell taught so many years ago, but only Woodward and Brady have figured out how to build, with long-term sustainable success, a true community.

So; to sum up, what Penny and I do for a living – is build communities of people through a proven system provided by the Team. That community then chooses to drink $40/bottle of MonaVie fruit juice and teach others to do the same. This in-turn generates revenues back those who actually build the community! I sincerely hope that makes sense.

God bless, John Graff

What’s changed is that they are dumping MonaVie in favor of selling re-branded TEAM tools as LIFE tools. The tools now become “the product” of the LIFE MLM.

Now, let’s turn back the clock a few more years back… to Quixtar. Again, my changes in bold below:

Quixtar vs – What’s the difference?

Have you ever been excited and confused at the same time? Many people are thrilled with the opportunity of what Quixtar can offer, yet don’t see what has to do with it. I totally understand how one might feel. As a matter of fact, I was so skeptical of how this all worked, that for several months I avoided doing my ‘due diligence’, regarding this group called “The Team.” My complacency regarding what the Team was all about, just led to more speculation and confusion. But over time, thanks to a patient, loving wife and the understanding of these strangers (team mates), that she was getting to know that were helping her, I gradually came to understand how it all fits together.

What Orrin Woodward and Chris Brady along with the founders of Quixtar have figured out, is that in order to have a successful business that runs without you constantly ‘being there’, requires a proven, franchise-like system of operation. Business owners that have been highly successful in those type of endeavors, focus on just 2 things: leverage and duplication.

So; Quixtar is ‘opportunity’, like the food that we purchase at a fast food restaurant. That’s what Quixtar is: an online shopping mall of life-improving products, that provide income to the business owner. Sooooo, the Quixtar business is the “supply” side of the business.

The Team is the “support” side of the business. It provides a proven, effective, duplicate-able way of training all of us to be that successful business owner, with built-in leverage points for us all to utilize. The more accurately and efficiently we use the training/education offered by the team, the more systematic (and thus faster) our business grows! As that happens, the more the system does the work, and the less you need to do!

The way it all works best is to build a community as Michael Dell taught so many years ago, but only Woodward and Brady have figured out how to build, with long-term sustainable success, a true community.

So; to sum up, what Penny and I do for a living – is build communities of people through a proven system provided by the Team. That community then chooses to purchase products through Quixtar and teach others to do the same. This in-turn generates revenues back those who actually build the community! I sincerely hope that makes sense.

God bless, John Graff

But didn’t Quixtar come from Amway? You bet it did! Here we go one more time:

Amway vs – What’s the difference?

Have you ever been excited and confused at the same time? Many people are thrilled with the opportunity of what Amway can offer, yet don’t see what has to do with it. I totally understand how one might feel. As a matter of fact, I was so skeptical of how this all worked, that for several months I avoided doing my ‘due diligence’, regarding this group called “The Team.” My complacency regarding what the Team was all about, just led to more speculation and confusion. But over time, thanks to a patient, loving wife and the understanding of these strangers (team mates), that she was getting to know that were helping her, I gradually came to understand how it all fits together.

What Orrin Woodward and Chris Brady along with the founders of Amway have figured out, is that in order to have a successful business that runs without you constantly ‘being there’, requires a proven, franchise-like system of operation. Business owners that have been highly successful in those type of endeavors, focus on just 2 things: leverage and duplication.

So; Amway is ‘opportunity’, like the food that we purchase at a fast food restaurant. That’s what Amway is: a shopping mall of life-improving products, that provide income to the business owner. Sooooo, the Amway business is the “supply” side of the business.

The Team is the “support” side of the business. It provides a proven, effective, duplicate-able way of training all of us to be that successful business owner, with built-in leverage points for us all to utilize. The more accurately and efficiently we use the training/education offered by the team, the more systematic (and thus faster) our business grows! As that happens, the more the system does the work, and the less you need to do!

The way it all works best is to build a community as Michael Dell taught so many years ago, but only Woodward and Brady have figured out how to build, with long-term sustainable success, a true community.

So; to sum up, what Penny and I do for a living – is build communities of people through a proven system provided by the Team. That community then chooses to purchase products through Amway and teach others to do the same. This in-turn generates revenues back those who actually build the community! I sincerely hope that makes sense.

God bless, John Graff

As you can see, one thing always remains the same even when the product changes. The TEAM business will always be there to sell you books, CDs and seminar tickets to “teach” you how to build the business opportunity, be it LIFE, MonaVie, Quixtar or Amway. Judging at the number of people who have truly become job optional (“free” in TEAM terms) as a result of TEAM’s teachings, I have to say that TEAM’s track record is not very good.

1 Readers can help me out with the exact dates when Orrin started, when TOD was formed, and when Team of Destiny renamed itself to TEAM.

2 Fast food is also considered to be cheap, of low-quality and nutritionally deficient. I’m not sure Graff’s comparison is the best one to have made.

292 Comments leave one →
  1. Mike Collins permalink
    November 7, 2011 8:27 am

    What a joke! LIEF Is just another Opportunity Amongst the many in mlm That is designed to enrich a few at the expense of the masses. When you look at the true numbers of this compensation plan It becomes clear That this is just another wealth transfer mechanism.

  2. Speak Your Truth permalink
    November 7, 2011 9:47 am

    Hahahaha!!!! #7…is the Best!

    John, needed only to say this and summed it up…PERFECTLY!!

    “So; The life business is ‘opportunity’, like the food that we purchase at a fast food restaurant. That’s what the life information is: its correct brain-food for the masses to improve their lives in multiple categories, that provide income to the business owner. Sooooo, the LIFE business is the “supply” side of the business.”

    Perfect analogy John!!!…The ‘opportunity’ and ‘correct brain-food’ (fast food)..for the masses to ‘improve their lives in multiple categories’…’that provide income to the ‘business owner.’

    This is histerical…Just like ‘fast-food’ is harmful to your mind & body!! Hahahahaha!!!!
    I love it…thanks for the laughs! 🙂

    [editor’s note: added blockquote for readability.]

  3. brent hansen permalink
    November 7, 2011 3:58 pm

    Funny stuff is all I can say. Now I am confused, hahaha….what is the ‘real’ business?

  4. Speak Your Truth permalink
    November 7, 2011 5:49 pm

    This is getting so comical, I am laughing histerically…after reading Vogel’s post and now here.. I have to say I do have the same question…and another one…Joining the LIEff program…Is it a job, and do you learn the correct leadership knowledge, after you start working for a fast-food joint?

    I too am more confused now than ever, probably as much as John is…great commentor on here used to say; perhaps they are smoking too much hippie lettuce..hahahahah!!

  5. What the??? permalink
    November 8, 2011 8:15 am

    I am so glad I found your site! I’ve been spending some time with this man who’s into this LIFE/MonaVie stuff, and sometimes I can’t tell if he’s interested in in a relationship with me or if he’s just trying to get me to do this LIFE stuff. Suggestions? My ex got involved in Reliv a few years back, and after that experience, I have ABSOLUTELY NO interested in MLM. What do you think, do I just cut off the relationship? I’m tired of hearing about this LIFE c***. I hate MLMs!!! Thanks for letting me vent.

  6. November 8, 2011 9:38 am

    @What the – I have seen examples where people feign interest in a relationship because they want to get the other person involved in the MLM business. I would ask him point-blank if your lack of interest in his business has any bearing on his feelings toward you. If he’s been taught “well” by LIFE, you won’t be a part of his life for much longer, I’m sorry to say.

  7. What the??? permalink
    November 8, 2011 10:21 am

    @Amthrax – Thanks for the advice! It really bothers me that guy has had some problems with his regular job and isn’t very well off, yet he’s sinking what little he has into “LIFE”. I’ve just blown off the comments he makes about it, but have gotten to the point that I can no longer do so. I’m scared to bring him around my family & friends out of fear that he will victimize them. Unfortunately, with much of this stuff you have to get burned by it before you wise up to their BS.

  8. bruce permalink
    November 22, 2011 11:31 am

    i have a buddy in this life thing and he thinks its the best thing since sliced bread, i tryed to tell him its a scam but he wont hear it, it amazes me on how stubborn people can be, if any one reading this has a friend interested or is interested in it them selves have them go to this site read this,4534,7-164-17337_20942-208400–,00.html
    its tells the warning signs of pyramid schemes, and the life business meets alot of the criteria of a pyramid scheme

  9. November 22, 2011 1:21 pm

    @webelieved – I added a link to the Michigan AG page on the FTC MLM Info page.

  10. bruce permalink
    November 22, 2011 4:39 pm

    webelieved- thanks for the welcome, and my friend isnt really any different but he does seem to get rather irritated when I try to tell him what I think about LIFE and trys to tell me Im wrong, and honestly for his sake I hope I am. here’s an article from Forbes about Orrin Woodward if anyone is interested

  11. Speak Your Truth permalink
    November 22, 2011 4:59 pm


    Wecome to this site! 🙂 I think if you spend some time reading this site, it will become crystal clear why the ‘stubbornness’…the system gets you to shut out any truthful, logical comments and make the people pointing out the obvious…will become their enemies. It is an us vs them closed logic system. Good luck, stick to your guns, it is very seducing game and everything is done to get you involved.

  12. jesse permalink
    January 11, 2012 8:05 am

    lol im a life buisness owner & it works great for me, infact i love it lol what r u doin in life??? takin enouff time to rip up other people! why dont u diagnose yourself? lol

  13. das permalink
    January 11, 2012 9:19 am

    jesse, This site wouldn’t even be here if Orrin did a self diagnosis. It’s sad that he has deceived so many.

    So tell us, what do you actually “own” in this Life business? lol? Really? You find it funny that everyone you sign up into Life is losing money?

  14. I QUIT (and glad I did) permalink
    January 11, 2012 9:37 am

    @ Jesse- another Teamer who is willing to violate their own P&Ps. Hope you don’t get caught or the business that you own will be taken away from you! Legally I might add. Yep… thats ownership alright.

  15. Vogel permalink
    January 11, 2012 11:07 am

    Is Jesse huffing nitrous oxide? Just wondering why he uses “lol” like it was a punctuation mark.

  16. TruthSeeker permalink
    January 11, 2012 4:28 pm

    i dnt no vogel but u r right abt Jesy..kind of silly huh. do we rite here or txt? lol

  17. Finally permalink
    January 11, 2012 6:04 pm

    “…..Some companies call themselves multi-level marketing when they are really operating pyramid schemes that violate Michigan’s Pyramid Promotion Act. Even when a multi-level plan does not violate Michigan’s Pyramid Promotion Act, the marketing of the plan may violate Michigan’s Consumer Protection Act, if the acts, methods, or practices are unfair, unconscionable, or deceptive.

    Okay, this is the team in a nutshell. They have meetings and tell profit sharers and RT’s the real story them forbid them from passing that info down to their teams.

    DECEPTIVE- In the team you have to be voted in to profit sharing, it has absolutely nothing to do with your performance and if you happen to get voted in you can also be voted out for ANY REASON they decide to vote you out for. Mike Raatz was a RT and booted for no good reason, same with the Morgan’s (John and Melanie) Ken and Enise Wrobleski and other’s. Dolores Martin told a down line who dared question her about the voting into to profit sharing process and her words were “oh, that’s just a formality and a legal thing if you qualify you get voted in” LIE, Lie, Lie, Lie, in all fairness I am not sure she knows…………..You see there is no cross lining in her folks and I am getting all the stuff the Team doesn’t want anyone to know. Like the fact that many so called “financially free” Team peeps are working and looking for work. Ed Zentner is one of the latest to have to find a J O B. Remember those things, they call them “just over broke ” If that is true then Team does not work, except for the few that can lie to anyone anywhere and tell them they can make it, or the one’s that are on the Team Welfare handout program, like PC Dan Hawkins and his Husband Lisa………….they lied to team, lied about their sponsors, took a handout in the form of systems and tickets and continue to perpetuate the lie of being Policy council members……..They are and team is a joke. They have claimed for years that NO ONe get’s a handout on team, it is not like favoritism in corporate america, and the it is strictly performance based, you post numbers and you get paid on those numbers. Orrin himself claimed, in Atlanta and the last Go Diamond weekend held there that he participated in profit sharing just like everyone else and that he had his profit sharing formula audited by an outside firm and that it was the fairest in the business….REally???

    Between Q an MV, Orrin was collecting a Team check over 500,000 dollars per month. Other profit sharers went from 9K, 20K and other such numbers to 500 t0 600 dollars per month. Now, how can that be? Orrin said on CD and in multiple meetings that “he would not use profit sharing money to pay for the lawsuit and that he would empty every bank account he had to beat Q” I guess he was lying……..I actually got sick of hearing profit sharers whining about the fact that a 25 million dollar lawsuit cost them their profit sharing checks……….now wait a stinking minute…….Didn’t Orrin, ChrisTim and other’s file the suit? If that is true how in the world could profit sharing be cut due to a lawsuit? I do not remember seeing a majority of the profit sharers names on the lawsuit………..interesting. Now I would love to see the team hired anonymous blogger comment on that, seeing that we, me, have no idea what we are talking about. I mean how could we be as smart as a man that fakes everything in his life except his check, no that is real. Well maybe his MV check is not real……..big that is any more……….

    Oh and blogger, ask Orrin if he is going to fight for our first amendment rights like he demanded the team office guy’s, that knew all the anonymous bloggers for team during the lawsuit. Orrin demanded that if asked or forced by a judge to talk that they keep their names secret………..Time will tell………Orrin the hypocrite…….

  18. Jared permalink
    February 28, 2012 9:50 am

    Mona Vie was bad enough. They continue to manipulate people and their beliefs so they can make money. I’ve never seen a smart business man get involved with any of Orrin Woodward’s scams. I’m ashamed to know people who do. A simple business/selling model will show that Mona Vie went beyond the demand for the product by selling it at a high mark-up to “distributors” who will try to sell it/get other people to sell it. They already made their money off of you with ridiculous markups. I know people who were with Mona Vie 100% and thought nothing was better. But then one day…. LIFE was the best thing ever and they never speak of Mona Vie again. Is this a cult?

  19. February 28, 2012 9:58 am

    @Jared – You will find many similarities between TEAM LIFE and cults. Read this webpage on the Freedom of Mind website that lists some of the cult-like attributes of TEAM.

  20. Lori permalink
    March 13, 2012 2:34 pm

    Thanks, I think you all helped me side step a land mine

  21. March 13, 2012 2:49 pm

    @Lori – Glad we could help.

  22. lost permalink
    May 14, 2012 7:40 pm

    My brother has lost his home (which was beautiful), he lost his cars, he lost everything he owned because they convinced him spending his money on Mona vie and now LIFE was the way to live his life. He has his wife and kids who are taught to obey him because that is the way they should live their “LIFE”. The rest of the family (sisters, brothers, grandparents, aunts and uncles) who didn’t join under him have been pushed away because they won’t join and lose everything they have as well. Nobody outside of the “LIFE” world can stand to be around him because he pushes it so much and gets angry when they don’t join. IT IS A CULT!!!! I am so disgusted that this is being allowed to continue and it needs to be stopped. I can’t watch him lose anymore. Our father would be so disappointed that he would bring people down with him and push away the people who aren’t just around him for his money. I just can’t wrap my head around why anybody would fall for this crap…are they brainwashing them? Something needs to be done…soon!

  23. What the??? permalink
    June 4, 2012 1:25 pm

    I posted on this thread several months ago about this guy who was interested in a dating relationship with me but was also prospecting me with the LIEf business. Just thought I’d give a status update. I confronted him about how much I disliked MLM, and he never mentioned it again.

    However, I will say that a few months later I ended my association with him after I found out that he took me out to dinner and “paid” for it with a bad check! Also found out that he owns money at at least one other place and that he has also recently lost his job. I have no idea if he is still involved in Team/Life, or if these things are in any way related to his Team involvement.

    I do know that this is not the type of person to take business advice from. How Orrin and company can convince someone like this that they can mentor others is beyond me. I was tempted a couple times to refer him to either Dave Ramsey or Crown Financial Ministries, but never did. Didn’t want to be subjected to the LIEf conversation again…

  24. Speak Your Truth permalink
    June 4, 2012 4:45 pm


    I am so sorry to hear that about your family, and it is stories like that that are most heart wrenching! It has to be very sad and frustrating place to be for your family. I am shocked your brother hasn’t ‘woke up’ after losing everything but he needs lots of love and support. He might be low enough for you to take some FACTS about bankruptcies, foreclosures, the Comp Plan that shows why he will lose!

    Just know You are not alone and I am sorry I missed your comments. I am sure others did too. Yes there is thought reform/undue influence/mind control used… you could get some understanding by reading Steve Hassan website (link on this site), “the bite model” and Books that would help you understand the ‘brainwashing’. But if you continue to read this site, it will become clear how the methods, techniques, and subtle brainwashing happens and is used. It is extremely sublte done under the guise of Christianity, “Self-Help”, Becoming Rich and Getting All your goals and dreams. They prey on the deepest human desires, make false promises, give everyone false hope and NEVER deliver on those promises,imo experience.

    It will also help you to read the LIEF Primer on this blog. I wish you the best, hang in there and if we can, we will help in anyway even if it is just moral support.

    What the ???~

    Wow…I would think based on how they mislead people and have seen and heard this from others that when they ‘lose’ their jobs they mislead others into believing they ‘retired’ because of the “business.” And I would venture to say he was going broke because of the LIEF sucking business… buying tools…How embarrassing to bounce a check on a date!!! Probably not going to get too many dates that way. It is sad really what they will do when they get wrapped up in the fantasy that they are going to be Rich when the ODDS are stacked against them from the START! How did you find out he bounced the check?

  25. What the??? permalink
    June 5, 2012 5:40 am

    @ Speak: We went to a small local restaurant where I am friends with the owner. I was contacted by the owner a few weeks later – she needed his phone number and it wasn’t on the check. VERY EMBARASSING. She said that she took the check from him because he was with someone she trusted.

    One of the most frustrating things about that relationship was that once I told him I didn’t like all that TEAM/LIEf/MLM stuff it became an unapproachable topic. Not very conducive to relationship building.

    The other thing that really stands out is that I one time told him that I sponsored a child through World Vision. He used that as a lead in to tell me about some charitable thing that Team does (More project??). I thought that was disgusting that sharing about my little sponsor child in a third world country was dismissed and then twisted to get me to listen to some MLM crap. Yuck!

    I know some of the other people in the community who do this Team stuff. I just try to stay away from them. It’s sad, really that I have to be cautious around certain people just to avoid getting a sales pitch.

  26. Speak Your Truth permalink
    June 5, 2012 9:04 am

    What the ???~ Yes I agree, the “MORE PROJECT” is Monavie connected charity and funny they don’t even promote Monavie anymore. But people will go on stage sometimes and brad about them sponsoring a child. One thing that is so disturbing is every principle they say they follow is never applied to them when the rubber meets the road. It is only used against others and somehow doesn’t apply to them.

    Sorry about your experience, he should be the one embarrassed and hopefully he will realize and LOOK at what is causing his problems. Thanks for sharing that and being honest. I hope the owner got back the money.

    It is amazing how they twist Everything in a conversation right back to the only thing that their brains will allow them to talk about. It is obvious to me the guy is totally immersed in the “business” mind controlling system. It is very annoying and everyone becomes a prospect which makes for a one-sided conversation, always! Once the cult like environment has stripped you of your critical thinking…it is a long road back to yourself…it is very sad.

    Glad you have helped yourself and see through it!

  27. Speak Your Truth permalink
    June 5, 2012 9:09 am

    The charities imo, are nothing but fronts they ‘Use’ to attract and break down barriers to gain instant trust. The business would not survive without (abused) trust. And believe me they are good at faking it and have techniques and methods to break down the dis-trust barriers, like using Christianity….and in my opinion they abuse it and don’t practice what they preach. It is also a mark of many cults.

  28. Vogel permalink
    June 21, 2012 2:48 pm

    I wasn’t sure quite sure where to post this, but this thread seemed as good a place as any because it pertains to Monavie.

    So here’s the deal…MSN Money just published an article that referenced Monavie; here it is in a nutshell:

    Title: ‘What Were They Thinking?’ Products

    “There’s no shortage of contenders for the stupid-product crown, but these manage to rise above their peers for sheer awesome awfulness…”

    “…#12 – MonaVie — Crush a bunch of berries, put it in a fancy bottle, price it like fine wine and make claims about its miraculous healing powers — until the Food and Drug Administration steps in and tells you to knock it off.”

    This is by no means the first piece of damning criticism about the worthlessness of Monavie, but it’s the most recent, it’s high profile, and it’s brutal in its honesty, referring to the product as “stupid” and rising above its peers “for sheer awesome awfulness”.

    Combine that with the 2011 Salt Lake Tribune article in which the product’s developer, Ralph Carson, cautioned that Monavie is “expensive flavored water” and that the claims made about it are “bogus”…

    …as well as all the other criticism that’s been levied at Monavie…

    …and you have an airtight case proving that Monavie was fraudulent from the get-go and, therefore, that Orrin was herding people into a horrific, blatant scam. This shatters forever any notion that Woodward has keen instincts, business savvy, or ethical integrity.

    As for his self-touted leadership skills, I don’t think that pocketing millions of dollars while pushing people off the edge of a cliff counts as a leadership skill. Now if there were an award for scamsmanship and con-artistry, he’d be a front running candidate.

  29. Betty permalink
    July 3, 2012 12:21 pm

    I have a good friend (I’ll call her Kathy) that has been in Team for almost a year. We were very good friends before that. While we’re still good friends, Team is often the excuse for not getting together due to meetings, conferences, whatever. Team often comes up often in conversation (especially around someone new) and I try to just ignore it or change the subject. The most embarrassing thing is, she’s always telling people that she’s retiring in 5 (now 4) years. Mutual friends that we all work with have begun to talk about her behind her back thinking she’s weird. I still don’t know exactly what she’s selling, but I’m guessing she’s spent thousands of dollars going to conferences. She’s a great leader now I guess. Apparently the latest thing is she’s about to win a “free” trip somewhere. While Kathy is not stupid, she’s not the brightest bulb either, which seems to be their target group for new members. I just wish there was something I could say or do to help her get out of this before she continues to blow all of her money. Sadly, I don’t think there is. I’ve jokingly referred to it as her cult group, which, needless to say, didn’t go over very well.

  30. Speak Your Truth permalink
    July 3, 2012 6:07 pm


    Oh boy… I am sorry I missed that post of yours…I needed a laugh and as always you never fail!

    Hahahaha! Thanks! 🙂

  31. Speak Your Truth permalink
    July 3, 2012 6:19 pm


    They are stroking your friends ego by telling her she is a ‘leader’…it won’t last long if she isn’t performing, “all in”…. spending, spending, spending and attending everything hence is why the outside world thinks those are in, are ‘weird’..because they!

    From my perspective and experience it is no joke though..I believe you would be encouraged and would be beneficial if you went to Steve Hassan’s website, check out the “Bite Model” and his book Combating Mind Control…I have a feeling you won’t be surprised.

    Funny, it is quite embarrassing knowing how ‘weird’, I looked, but when you are in cult performance mode you don’t stop long enough to realize it! It is the brutal reality people DO think they are weird because they are!! But the LiEfers pride themselves and proudly wear that badge “we are different”…’you have to be different to get different’…’hey, hey, hey step away from the crowd’….I am being somewhat humorous but your friend is hearing very similar messages like that to ‘keep them in’ and is what makes everyone ‘weird’.

    Every once in a while you will stop dead in your tracks…like when we went to Utah and stayed in a major hotel for a Team Convention the same weekend apparently the Mormon convention was goin on.

    Before anyone gets bent out of shape thinking I am bashing anyone’s religion. not the case here or anything like that…..but No doubt we all looked and dressed the same!

    If you can be there when your friend figures out she quits paying her bills to pay for her ‘business’ and hits rock bottom financially…the masses will, it is designed that way and most people’s finances run out very quickly spending hundreds monthly with no chance of seeing a return anytime, not even the distant future…it won’t take long but your friend will need you when that happens.

    Stand strong against the constant team/LIEf talk…keep changing the subject (lol) and you might want to be honest and tell her it is Really annoying and getting old.

    Don’t buy in to what I would call… the ‘beautiful side of evil’…All the amazing things your friend will tell you and fall for what she will tell you she ‘be, do, and have’ she will make it appear like no other… they are telling her she will be financially independent, (the odds are ridiculous check out the comp plan analysis and latest videos from Mike Collins on here, the Life primer on her).

    She’s is being fed false hope…like get ALL her goals and (day) dreams, It will ‘change her life’ all ‘appears'(operative word).. Like a wonderful, amazing, heaven on earth, never been around a more “happy and positive” group of goal oriented, going to fire their bosses any day now, be rich and have the lifestyle of the PC…

    You probably have already heard that some walk on water like her upline, Orrin Woodward and others…haha this group of people are the most amazing you will ever meet in your life or so they get you to ‘believe’. Let me tell ya….that is not even close to the truth, based on many after being around the PC and others for years, you will find a lot of that on here!

    YOU my friend will become an enemy to your friend (in her mind, everything is ‘us vs them’ doctrine that is if you don’t get started) or will be hounded to death, hence; the nonstop talk of team/LIEf and will get to be a loser in her eyes…lol..Don’t take it personal, all the robots (liefers) are groomed to think that way… it is the undue influence, cd’s their minds are controlled with and all the garbage they get fed!

    Sorry for the long post…Good luck, thanks for sharing and hope you keep us posted! 🙂

  32. Betty permalink
    July 14, 2012 5:28 am

    Thanks for all of your input. I really appreciate it. My friend just got a “LIFE” sticker on the back of her car and my first thought that it was a “pro-life” sticker! Then I realized what it was. I’ve seen a few of those around town and just thought they were pro-lifers. I’m not sure who their marketers are, but perhaps they should have thought that through a bit. We were with a group of people a couple of days ago and I didn’t hear her bring it up to anyone. I do feel badly for her though, she’s cut her cable, downgraded her phone and has been very tight with money. I wish I knew how much a month she’s spending. She did mention she was able to report her losses last year on her taxes. So the taxpayers also get to subsidize their businesses when you think about it! I will check out the books and perhaps try to gently let her know I’ll be there for her when she’s ready to get out. I know she’s attending her weekly meetings religiously though, I’m not sure how much of anything I have to say she’ll hear.

  33. July 14, 2012 7:39 am

    Right now anything you say can and will be used against you. Simply you will become an enemy as defined by the TEAM cult and she could alienate you or disconnect from you. It’s cult MO. She’s been warned against you and instructed on what to do, i.e. have limited or no contact with people who don’t support or even join her.

    So educate yourself before you say something, then you will say the right things. And make no mistake TEAM does not seem like a cult, it is a cult, a destructive commercial cult. Secondly thought – your friend does not operate a business but a pretend “business.”

  34. July 19, 2012 5:16 am

    Yes indeed
    1-The free ebook Merchants of Deception, and
    2-Google Steve Hassan and Rick Ross websites
    Should be a good start for anyone.

  35. July 21, 2012 2:56 pm

    To give a broader insight into this pernicious, predatory, pretend MLM industry here’s two more books/websites. Notice the catch phrase in one “My time observing the 1% feeding on the 99%”

  36. Brent Hansen permalink
    July 21, 2012 5:36 pm

    Exambot, nice links, hahaha. If anyone is interested in a PDF file of Adam Baker’s salacious account, I have the manuscript on PDF. Just email me at

    I think it is too bad that he wrote the book with such sexual content, it makes it almost worthless to use as a piece of evidence against the industry. His approach places his integrity in question. I am sure the numbers and stories are accurate, and it simply puts another nail in the proverbial MLM coffin.

  37. Speak Your Truth permalink
    July 22, 2012 5:42 pm


    Thanks for the Links. Many whistleblowers are getting sick and tired of this industry. I read the first one a while ago, but only knew briefly of the second link. I am speechless. The corruption, discust and distain I feel to the industry is yet again reaffirmed and anyone promoting this as I have read either repeat the lies (99%) or know they are lying! It’s those who know they are lying to the masses that need to be brought to their knees!

    There should be no doubt in anyone’s mind why the trust factor in anyone being held accountable for any thing in MLM in America is nill what a reckless mess or why no one has faith in any goverment agency that would be doing a damn thing about the illegal, unethical trappings of the MLM industry rather those who are apparently in many high places who gladly collect and do reap the benefits in many ways that aren’t even a part of them.

    Money, Money, and more Money, no matter who or what the damage or costs! The positive is many are saying enough is enough and are sick and tired of the damage this causes to everyone in America and the world and speaking loudly (whistleblowers) about it.

    I am appalled at the corruption and power (of the filty rich) that just seems to be the norm at the TOP of these destructive scams and the ripple of effect of damages that effect everyone! In many ways it was like reading Eric S. book; I got the same feeling of shock after reading that.

    Brent has a very good point and I wouldn’t want any young kids getting their hands on these books but the world and especially America needs to wake up to the brutal discusting reality of those with the power in the MLM industry think, act, and ‘care’ less about the distributors.

    “Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Great men are almost always bad men.”

    “Unlimited power is apt to corrupt the minds of those who possess it”

    Just for reference to quotes:

  38. SAD permalink
    July 24, 2012 7:28 am

    my wife is in LIFE and and i am going through the same BS i dont see any way of her getting out I am honestly thinking of leaving her

  39. Speak Your Truth permalink
    July 24, 2012 4:33 pm


    Hang in there! You have found a place of at least some support and I think it safe to say we are all rooting for you. I obviously don’t know what you are going through specifically but don’t let the LIEfers win by letting your marriage dissolve because of their control over your wife!

    If you can call a Pastor, Couselor, and crab the book by Steve Hassan: Combating Mind Control ( I believe there is an updated version now also) you can find Steve’s website link on here (under critic). There are many resources with some great help from many different websites also, with book reference’s etc, if you are interested.

    Also there is the link to the e-book Merchants of Deception that will blow your mind and is well worth the read! It is a very gripping account from a high level Amway “IBO” and the “motivational organization” he belonged to. There is much relevance in Eric S. story becasue that is where orrin woodward originated and ‘learned’ and ‘copied’ everything the good and bad (they will tell you they got rid of the bad…but there are many who know better) from that very Amway “system.”

    Good luck, my heart goes to you. Let us know if we can help, it is just too sad.

  40. Freedomhaha permalink
    July 24, 2012 6:26 pm

    Hey Orrin- We have another testimonial for you.

  41. SAD permalink
    July 25, 2012 5:40 am

    Thanks for the advice, yes we do have small children and I am doing most of the parenting by myself now because she is making this “sacrifice” of “building the business” so we can both be retired very soon.. I am just at the point that I feel nothing i say or do will make her quit,i have brought up leaving if she doesnt quit and her response was if I cant support her than maybe im not the person she thought i was,, it is just insane the thought process..

  42. SAD permalink
    July 25, 2012 7:29 am

    Thanks again for your advice..

    The changes ive noticed are before this she didnt own a cell phone now she cant get off the darn thing always texting people or talking about who’s coming to the next open rather than play with the kids and her up line moron i mean mentor always calling the house or texting her, I have tried to tell her that this guy is not her friend he is just trying to make more money but she doesnt see it that way to her he wants to see her succeed and be job optional just like him

  43. July 25, 2012 10:13 am

    How did all this start?
    Did you read the book Merchants of Deception?

  44. July 25, 2012 10:14 am

    Whatever you say is not going to work on or with her-it’s being regarded as antagonistic because of the vibes she is picking up from you from the way you are saying it. They have been trained to have an answer towards critics, real or imagined.

    I am afraid there’s no other way to skin this cat – you first have to earnestly educate yourself on cults/thought reform. It’s unfathomable to us westerners that a 12 YO Arab kid can strap themselves with explosives and blow up a full bus. Similarly it’s the mind that has been had.

    First you gotta know what you are up against before you can (secondly) arm yourself against it. Once you read the free e-book Merchants of Deception, Google Steve Hassan & Rick Ross websites/book and, and just about anything you can find on this subject you will have good weapons against thought reform. Before then stop appearing antagonistic, it will just drive her deeper into the cult and shut her ears or mind from you. Heck you might even have to feign interest in the pretend business. I feel for you bro. I really do.

  45. Betty permalink
    August 9, 2012 3:02 pm

    My friend “Kathy” has started going through all of her friends again to try to recruit. Every time I talk to her she sneaks in LIFE…a book she’s reading, a speaker she’s listening to, etc. She sent me a text asking me to come with her to see two rich guys speak. I told her no (nicely). Then she said, “Don’t you really want to know what I do? Or are you afraid it will make too much sense?”
    I told her that I thought she was wasting lots of time and money but I’d still be her friend when she was ready to get out. Well…that didn’t go over very well! I told her to just drop it but she continued, “The only reason I want you to go is because I want this for you and your family. Do you think it makes me feel good that you don’t think I can do it?”
    The thing is, this doesn’t even sound like her voice. I didn’t say much other than I wanted to drop it and just leave me alone about it. I did check out the cult website, and yes, this is definitely a cult! I have a child and a job, I do not have time to run to meetings for no benefit other than the godly light that is apparently shone upon my head by Orrin’s gang. It’s just sad.

  46. Freedomhaha permalink
    August 10, 2012 4:18 am

    We sure are to set people free.

  47. Freedomhaha permalink
    August 10, 2012 4:19 am

    We sure are here to set people free. Sorry for the typo!

  48. August 10, 2012 9:08 am

    @ SAD

    I feel your pain, but whatever you do, please DON’T leave your wife. Your kids would suffer because of that and the TEAM would win. Your wife is going to need you when she finally figures out what a scam she’s involved in.

    At least you are not indoctrinated as well and there’s hope that you can turn things around. My husband and I were both “all in” on the TEAM so it took us many, many years to get our critical thinking back.

    I totally agree with others on this site who say you need to quit arguing with your wife, that’s the worst thing you can do. Like exambot said, you may have to feign interest for a while. Ask your wife non-intimidating questions like, “So, what did you learn today”? For a while she may be learning new things from seminars and books, but eventually it will get to the point where there’s nothing new. This is a particularly good question to ask after a Tuesday night open meeting since they are always the same thing. The open meetings are meant to pull the wool over the eyes of the new prospects, but current members don’t learn anything they don’t already know. If you aren’t taking a prospect to an open meeting, they are a complete and utter waste of time.

    Another good question is, “Why can’t we just buy the book of the month from Amazon since it’s cheaper that way?” or “Why do they use CDs as opposed to MP3 downloads (which should be basically free…or certainly much cheaper)?” Those small, nagging questions were nothing major, but they were exactly what got my husband and I to finally break free. Start asking the small, innocent questions out of curiosity, without being intimidating, and the seeds of freedom will be planted.

  49. Speak Your Truth permalink
    August 10, 2012 9:44 am

    What an Amazing site! The irony of it all. It’s no wonder why these great people got caught up, built big teams because they are geniune and now are trying to help others reverse the damage…doesn’t get any better than that.

    Thanks a ton to you all for being here and ‘giving’ of yourselves truthfully and unconditionally! You are all the “real” leaders who have earned my respect! 🙂

  50. Freedomhaha permalink
    August 10, 2012 10:37 am

    Speak- I believe that I have said it before on this site, but I have learned tons of real leadership skills on this blog. Here you have people spending time (for no money) to help save peoples lives. Those reading this that don’t think what happens here is anything short of saving lives must be lucky enough to have not spent a lot of time around TEAM cult.

  51. Speak Your Truth permalink
    August 10, 2012 12:21 pm


    I couldn’t agree more, it’s the real deal! Thanks for all you do! 🙂

  52. August 10, 2012 2:25 pm

    Speak said
    “…You are all the “real” leaders who have earned my respect!”

    Ditto. In fact I am not too bashful to say your respect is one bird worth a whole lot more for me than two of IBOFB’s in the MLM bush.

    All in all it pains me that SAD’s wife and Betty’s friend are really, real people and you can all see the hurtful results of pernicious, predatory, pretend MLM “businesses.” Really it is real people behind these stories. Enough reason for me to keep sharing.

  53. Karen permalink
    August 14, 2012 12:00 pm


    Thanks to this great website!! I, too, almost got into the LIFE business by now ex-boyfriend.

    I attended 2 Tuesday meetings and a Major. I had questions about how the business worked and was met with “just go to a meeting and you will get your questions answered”, or ask your upline. It was at the Major that I became really concerned that the time spent giving some great information turned out to be couple after couple who got up on the stage and said how great their lives were since joining and how they couldn’t imagine anything better–hour after excuriating hour for the whole weekend. I have since split with my long time boyfriend because he has been pulled in and I don’t want to be sucked into what I had a gut feeling is a cult.

    I returned home after that weekend and found this site and know that it is one of the best decisions I have made in a while. Although I hate to see my ex-boyfriend being sucked in, I feel that his strong desire for wealth and center stage may suit him for awhile. I am very sad that I have lost someone that I loved to this but he is an extremely stubborn person and I feel that I have been demoted to “a lost cause” status.

    I am currently in financial stress which has also caused some emotional upheaval in my life, but I am happy to say that I am glad that I didn’t fall under this spell–I don’t need or want what little I have to live on to be completely wiped out with the Tools and business related expenses that absolutely do not fit into my budget in the least little bit.

    My question is: Does my ex-boyfriend care that this would financially devestate me before I could even reach the work optional state? Does it seem that he may seem to fit the same profile as that of Orrin Woodward and his gang?

    Your thoughts and opinions are really welcome as I grieve this relationship and hope that he doesn’t get lost in LIFE too long.


  54. MustHaveBeenTerribleMother permalink
    August 14, 2012 1:27 pm

    Holy cow, is all I can say. Recently, my later-age Gen Xr got involved with LIFE….after a few meetings, it was like seeing someone on drugs.

    When I did the math and a little research and realized the history and current status of these, um, gurus and their MLM, pseudo-hidden double pyramid schematic and realized that not only did you have to recruit, but also sell ridiculously-contrived Mental Fitness Challenge (set up to give them exactly what they want to tell you, e.g., you have lower “vision”, etc,, even if you’ve been hilariously positive and successful in your own mind/career and are not retired), and actually got ahold of their “bonus commission schedule” (oiy! What a convoluted mess THAT was!), I realized that this entire business, which despicably also makes it sound as if you have the right PURPOSE (attitude and passion and vision, etc.) that somehow your “God” is going to reward you with the riches you’ve always dreamed of…..

    well, let’s just say, I got called (more like screamed at) unflattering things, grilled like he was F. Lee Bailey and I had to give yes/no witness-stand answers, etc., and THEN told I had a “middle class education” (um, I believe you’ll find me in Who’s Who in American Colleges and Universities, page 856, 1983, graduating as a single parent) , told I just look stuff up on the internet to be confrontational, that I don’t support him in his dreams—-you name it. It all hurt so terribly, that I have cut him off until he agrees to seek help.

    This is a long-grown “child” …..but I feel like I need help from anti-cult deprogramers. Anyone else out there go through this with their grown kids? This is hard to take after almost 40 yrs of parenthood, being there for him, etc.

    The saddest part it: my “kid” is smart….so why doesn’t he see what I see?

  55. MustHaveBeenTerribleMother permalink
    August 14, 2012 1:35 pm

    Correction to above post by self: meant: successful in business and now ARE retired.

  56. MustHaveBeenTerribleMother permalink
    August 14, 2012 1:44 pm

    Oops: terribly sorry–must have been upset–another correction: I was not a single mother when graduating in 1983… but for the next few years, I was in graduate school with high honors, top of my class while a single mother. Just want to be accurate. This has all just been so upsetting, sometimes I can’t spell correctly OR even make coherent sentences—this whole LIFE scam is mind-boggling. No wonder “believers” brains seem to start to fry over it! If you could put my two prior corrections into the original post before making it public, I’d appreciate it. Trying to be as accurate as possible.

  57. August 14, 2012 1:49 pm

    I am SO happy I found this site!

    A few weeks ago two guys I knew is high school suddenly wanted to get together and have coffee. I hadn’t seen nor really spoken to these two in nearly 20 years so I am thinking “gang rape” considering their past lives but…it was a public meeting for coffee and besides – people change, right? We were going to discuss faith, politics, etc as I was told.

    15 minutes into “catching up” and BOOM…they bust out CD’s and literature, invite me to a meeting next week, and sell this all as financial freedom and using faith and God to do so. I was confused by the MLM raping I had just experienced….do I look or seem THAT stupid? I am a pretty smart gal so I was surprised when I – the one who loathes and avoids all MLM – somehow got pulled into this “fellowship” meeting.

    I came home with 3 cd’s and a haunting comment made by one of the guys stuck in my head…”My wife makes 90% of the decisions but I make 10% of the decisions that matter”

    Whoa Nellie!!!! Huh?

    So I fired up the Google and typed in LIFE and AGO into it and I was overwhelmed with mostly negative info on Orrin Woodward and his Jesus Juice peddlers. I am a Christian but….dang. These LIFE people are INSANE.

    My problem? I have 3 of their CD’s and want to burn them…now. I can read the bible and buy fruit punch and take a daily vitamin. I don’t need this LIFE crap.

    These two guys were liars 20 years ago. “I am in a garage so I am a car” Christians. Using friendship, fellowship, and lies to sell juice.

    Keep up the good work on this site. More people need to know about LIFE and what a heaping bunch of poop it all is.

  58. August 14, 2012 2:21 pm

    @MustHaveBeenTerribleMother – don’t blame yourself. Your child is under thought reform and mind control. The people he’s associating with in TEAM are telling him what he wants to hear — he’ll be a success, he’ll be a leader, he’ll be rich, etc. They’ll tell him that anyone — even his own mother — who disagrees with him is a dream stealer.

    If he’s like most people, he’ll wise up once he’s out several thousand dollars. Hopefully, he won’t be sucked in too long. As far as advice goes, say that you love him unconditionally. Do ask him to keep careful watch of his finances with his new business. After all, expenses outweighing profits is a bad business.

  59. August 14, 2012 2:25 pm

    @Karen – I have a similar response to your new comment as I did to @MustHaveBeenTerribleMother. Your ex-boyfriend is now “going out” with TEAM/LIFE, and he’s going to be spending all his time and money with his new “girlfriend” instead of you. Eventually, he’ll wise up and break up with TEAM/LIFE, but how long that will be is anyone’s guess. Since he’s being love-bombed by Orrin and company, it might be a long time.

    As for you, concentrate on improving and stabilizing your financial status. It’s good that you didn’t fall under the TEAM/LIFE spell.

  60. August 14, 2012 2:28 pm

    @MustHaveBeenATerribleMother – one of the guys today told me about how he has tried to “help” his parents through LIFE teachings and when they have ignored him and not followed suit, he basically has nothing to do with them and told me a lot that reminds me of what yoir child has told you. I am sorry for your child but everyone has to learn their own lessons. This LIFE stuff is super messed up 😦

  61. August 14, 2012 2:30 pm

    @abass80 – Good for you to do your research and discover the “other side” of TEAM/LIFE. How much were they advertising getting signed up with selling MonaVie as opposed to the LIFE products like Mental Fitness Challenge?

  62. August 14, 2012 2:41 pm

    Thanks 🙂 I am a common sense gal so I knew something was up and not kosher when these two guys contacted me out of the blue via social networking telling me how much they liked my opinions, etc.
    We never got so far as products and pricing. I am invited to a “get together” on Monday to meet other “awesome couples” who “I should get to know”. I was told one of their “council” leaders will be there and that he would really like me. Part of me wants to go so I can burn their cd’s right in front of them. The guys never mentioned the juice but used lots of MLM mimd wash verbage: upline, council, opportunity, financial freedom, etc. It was all hogwash to me and I was surprised that I was manipulated so easily into this coffee chat meeting today. I had NO idea until 15 minutes in….but they swear LIFE will make my life great. OH – and my boyfriend should come too or I should reconsider the relationship. SERIOUSLY????!!!! These are some twisted folks….and I don’t know how to politely avoid them. Since they were so up on “confronting reality” I would love to drop some knowledge on their asses about how MLM works then pop out your web page 🙂

  63. freedomhaha permalink
    August 14, 2012 3:07 pm

    In one day this blog gave people more freedom than TEAMcult ever has!

  64. MustHaveBeenTerribleMother permalink
    August 14, 2012 3:32 pm

    @AMTHRAX: thanks for your comments (and the others’ comments, too); I fear that NOW, I shall certainly be proving here that perhaps I was, in some ways “a terrible mother”, because just two weeks before the LIFE shenanigans started (we did not find out about it until just 3 or so days ago when I got “pitched”), we purchased a used vehicle for him so that his two babies could be transported more safely, and he could use the other one for his modest-paying job (he does not want to work in a job where he actually got a master’s level rating and in which he does wonderful work) which requires hauling potentially dangerous, loose equpment. In having two newer grandchildren, let’s just say, in the past year, we ‘non-visionary’, ‘naysaying stupid dopes’ are into 10 digits on what was spent on that family. (Note: before that, we did not spend all that much on financially supporting a grown “child” per se–more recently, were were happily giving due to two wonderful grandchildren, his nice also-working wife, etc., in some hard-time down-swing economics)

    I guess it’s kind of a sad chuckle here, but the man who owns this modest-job business my son works in, is the one who got him into LIFE! On another note: for some real base reasons not disclosed here, I believe I made a sound decision in asking him to get help, e.g., doesn’t even have 500 bucks to lose; past history of wanting to get into the flipping houses scheme, make a killing on the stock market scams requiring $4k in purchases and the K. Trudeau type stuff.

    So, I guess: by supplying money and a vehicle, I now feel and believe as if we non-visionary ‘middle class hacks’ had “aided and abetted” the frivolity of wasting what little money and time there is in a struggling, growing family due to this economy—know what I mean? In other words, I didn’t just put my foot down to “save myself” here from more derogatory treatment and comments in an otherwise normal situation.

    Or maybe I should just say: I believe I am dealing with intellectual intelligence which obviously sorely lacks emotional “intelligence” (maturity). Perhaps it’s just that he’s desperate to earn more money for this growing family. Whatever the reason, the brain-washing techniques used on these new, gullible members, is nothing short of criminal!

    BTW, I did NOT “butt in”….I got canvassed to join, and when I began questioning, that’s when the attack came against everything I’d ever done/achieved in life, including having what I hope is a good, questioning character. I didn’t tell him what to do—only reiterated what I found out here on the internet. WOW! He went ballistic about me looking stuff up on the internet….like he’d been warned against it already.

  65. MustHaveBeenTerribleMother permalink
    August 14, 2012 3:39 pm

    @AMTHRAX: I forgot to ask you something, and I cannot find disclosures of income: is what Hawkins says, true about his income? This is what my son was told at a meeting: does this guy really make more than $250,000 PER MONTH?!!! Um, if this is true, I’m wondering why Trump etal haven’t joined…..’mo money…mo’ money…mo’ money! Crikey…how far up the “upline” and how many Grand Poohbah bonuses does he get?!!

  66. Vogel permalink
    August 14, 2012 3:46 pm

    Abass80 said: “I can read the bible and buy fruit punch and take a daily vitamin. I don’t need this LIFE crap.”

    Exactly, and if you had a need for motivational and self-help books, you could get them for free from the library or buy them from Amazon without having to enslave yourself to round-the-clock cult indoctrination meetings.

    Your words were very wise indeed. Welcome to you and Mother. You’ve definitely found the right place. Just wait til Speak Your Truth and Webelieved see your posts. I’m sure they’ll have plenty to offer.

  67. MustHaveBeenTerribleMother permalink
    August 14, 2012 3:55 pm

    @abass80: oh, yes….you are very correct here on your commnet to me about another grown “child” and his/her parents:….when I questioned LIFE structure, tactics, hidden p-within-p and the selling of almost-worthless, repackaged one-time-only-purchase type items (empty bottle of Amway soap that will be replenished vs a CD that’ll end up in the attic, etc.), he just went nuts on me, literally telling me he’d gotten the answers to the universe!! I kid you not.

    Sort of felt like I was in the Baptist Church in “The Blues Brothers” movie when Elwood and Joliet Jake got the shining revelation from Jesus H. Christ that they needed to form a band. It was like he was now on a mission from “God”! (note: I was raised Catholic, attended Catholic Universities, but actually been an Atheist for a long time and not ashamed to say it (to each his own)—I see the pros and cons in both, but I couldn’t believe that on top of everything else, now “God” got involved in an MLM scheme).

    He was literally screaming at me about the Mental Pre-Fitness Challenge….and at one point, coming out of the screaming mouth, these two things seemed, um, rather mutually-exclusive… and this is what the newbie zealots don’t see. They are so hyped up at the sense of “community building” (yeah, right…wanna see a non-$$$-performer keep that sense of community), that in our case….he claimed it even made his marriage so much better (in 2-3 weeks? okay…but I still see the same old behavior patterns, too)

    I certainly won’t harrangue him….but on the other hand, I am SO relieved to find this board! My husband can barely even bear to talk about it, he’s so hurt, disappointed and almost feels duped.

  68. MustHaveBeenTerribleMother permalink
    August 14, 2012 4:03 pm

    @Vogel: thank you; sorry I’ve been so long-winded….but since I got “dissed” and keep finding out more and more and more about the looks-like-Jim Jones-where’s the koolaide- cult , aka: LIFE group—in 3 days, I think I could write a book, albeit a very sad one at how the destruction in a family starts when one disappears into that smelly bowel of a so-called brotherhood…let’s hope the mother/son split it’s not permanent like some have complained about. Of course, I will always love him unconditionally—he was the only one of five to survive—but I’ve got my limits as to the elder verbal abuse I’ll take over it, too.

  69. MustHaveBeenTerribleMother permalink
    August 14, 2012 4:09 pm

    Correction to prior posting of my own: Man, I must be really off today: we did NOT spend 10 digits worth on our son’s family: meant to type 5 digits!!

  70. August 14, 2012 4:09 pm

    🙂 @Mother….great Blues Bros reference!!!
    Apparently anyone who rebukes the LIFE teachings are glib – according to the guys I “had coffee” with today.
    Next time your son gets upset remind him of who paid for that second car then remind him that one of the teachings of LIfE is to love people where they are at so you will love him anyway and he should do the same 😉
    The verbage the guys used today was troubling. One man was telling me how his wife has yet to fully “get on board” and the other spoke about not wanting to associate with people not on his “level”. It was like sitting through an acid douche of my brain…
    One guy comes from such a loving and supporting family and here he was talking smack about his own mother and how stupid his family is because they refuse to acknowledge the “truth”.
    I missed the passage of the bible where God wants Christians to use his teachings to manipulate people into spending tons of money each month on literature and juice by posing it as faith based fellowship. I also heard a lot of “our God” today.
    I am still in disbelief that these two men are literally cult members now….just sad.

  71. MustHaveBeenTerribleMother permalink
    August 14, 2012 4:19 pm

    @abass80: you wrote: . I am invited to a “get together” on Monday to meet other “awesome couples” who “I should get to know”. No kidding!! I got the same word spiel from my son, and in addition, they are all well-dressed and so nice, and even… um DOCTORS have given up their practices for this (let me get this right: the surgeon who got $22,000 for my spine surgery that took an hour is going to quit his life’s work for LIFE?), um….you name it…..but yeah, I got the same “awesome couples” stuff….so I guess their propaganda that the ‘wife should support her husband’ in throwing away their time and money must actually WORK.

    My son got very very angry with me when I pointed out some of the subtler chauvanistic type attitudes, although I know there are women in this too—-but it was the old Biblical aspect that stuck in my craw. Oh, and he made mention that one of his objectives was to get his wife home more—did he ASK her? She loves her job. Almost sounded a little too ‘barefoot, pregnant, and in the kitchen to me.’ That’s when I got screamed at that I was nuts. When no logical answers to be given to me, then the core personality annihilation began on me.

    BTW: I heard that one before, too, about the man of the couple only making the decisions that count. Sweet Jehosephat! Makes me wonder WHY I ever continued, for a long time, to be the main bread-winner for men! (Sorry guys, but you know what I mean here)

  72. MustHaveBeenTerribleMother permalink
    August 14, 2012 4:57 pm

    @abass80: okay, you just said it all–absolutely NO more needs to ever be said about LIFE, in general: an “acid douche to the brain”! Exactly. (and we here know all about those douches, too, because we live close to where Jeffery Dahmer did his work–LOL!!)
    Oiy! I needed some levity today.

  73. freedomhaha permalink
    August 14, 2012 6:52 pm

    I am so proud to be a member of this blog today. You two ladies have provided such outstanding insight on to the real nature of the LiFE TEAM CULT!

  74. MustHaveBeenTerribleMother permalink
    August 14, 2012 6:58 pm

    Okay: enough of my complaining about my loved one acting like a duped hysteric in Bellevue over my refusal to get into LIFE (as a consolation, if that ever really happened, hopefully, he would be admitted for deprogramming from LIFE).

    Let’s get down to brass tacks here with some stats and see if you more knowledgeable ones agree—please feel free to correct me here…have mercy, I’m still in shock over losing my son to “Comet Kahoutek-type nuts” and excuse the length, but their payment scheme is SO ridiculous:

    1) He claims they now have about 60,000 people, supposedly reaching this number in a mere 10 months—but I am not sure if some overly-bloated-from-$40-Mona Vie-juice groupies came in, too. If each one of these people bring in the initial bare minimum 3 “subscribers”, then in 8 “generations” of this exponential growth, you would have far exceeded the entire population of the United States, to say nothing of the fact that the number is much smaller when you exclude children, some disabled, the millions in true severe poverty, and the extreme elderly. (I am just talking about the three people you need to get in subscriptions when you join, which is a total of $150 to tithe to the gurus, of which you, the absolutely deluded disciple will earn a whopping 5% or $7.50, getting it 6 months after joining, and after which you get monthly percentages for sales/subscriptions, etc.)

    2) Using the example above, if this scenario were played out every month, just at the 60,000 person level to begin with—they are pulling in 3 million dollars, and that grows exponentially, too. (Remember, in this example, it does NOT include funds from selling the absolutely and ridiculously-rigged Mental Fitness Challenge $268.95 test, which is a “must”, you know, because it will help you find yourself, God, passions and the whole “8 Fs” gibberish—Faith, Family, Finances, and so forth. It also does not include any sales made for non-member website purchases, or if you bring in more than 3 people/subscriptions).

    3) Now, yes, there ARE bonuses (remember that term: bonus…it may denote a 40% tax bracket!) to collect if you manage to keep your sanity and your family and your house and your car by the time you reach a leadership “Poohbah” position—what I sarcastically refer to as the Peon, and Poohbah, Grand Poobah, Supreme Poohbah, and Super Supreme Poohbah levels, etc., scheme of roles which you need to understand to even begin to comprehend the gibberish of Woody’s and Brady’s “commission bonus” scheme.

    I almost crapped a lake perch (this would NOT be a pretty site in a 62 yr old grandma )) when I saw these numbers: You, at Grand Poohbah level, brought in $16,000 this month; the plain Poohbah below you brought in $15,000, and the rest of the Peons brought in $7000.

    This is a total of $38,000!!!!! Of this, you, the Grand Poohbah of this shitline/upline, get a calculated bonus of $1280. The plain Poohbah gets about $860, if I remember correctly. BUT….hold on…don’t get excited…….

    4) YOUR Grand Poohbah bonus goes to the Supreme Poohbah, if there is one above you, and you, my sad, sorry Pooh-Boo-Hoo-bala get: the $860 from the plain Poohbah down the poopline/downline from you…..This is what you get in “bonus” for all of your time, gas, meetings, and on the $16,000 you generated that month and time grooming the Peons, lower Poohbahs and soliciting for new memberships, insulting and alienating old friends and parents, etc!

    Well, the last time I checked my hubby’s annual bonus, we got taxed at the 40% rate. Okay, since we don’t own an amazing plethora of LLC tax shelter shell covers like Woody and Pals….we would be left with: $516 as a “bonus.” (Yes, you obviously would be entitled to more regular income that month, because even in this low-level LEADER-level-2 or 3 example, i..e, Grand Poohbah example, you, yourself as Grand Poohbah, have sold a WHOPPING $16,000 that month!)

    Like Clark Howard said: one had better be FEARLESS at this, totally believing the shill itself, because you have got to sell it day and night, to every poor Joe Schmoe you see on the street!

    I feel like I just came home from a very confused Moose Lodge meeting with Jackie Gleason and Norton in The Honeymoomers.

  75. No Team For Me permalink
    August 14, 2012 7:21 pm

    abass80 – Please go to the meeting with printouts from this site. Think of how many people you could save. Most of us on this site are too well-known because we used to be pretty big leaders before we realized the whole thing was a scam. They wouldn’t let us near a meeting now because they know we would expose the truth.

    But you could get in. Think of how much you appreciate this site. What if you could truly help a few people in that room? Think of some of their kids that could get an extra 8-12 hours a week with their kids. Think of some of the family’s that could then save an extra $5-15,000 a year. Think of some of the marraiges you could save. Think of some of the people who would not lose all their friends.

    Please make copies of some of the pages from this site and share with everyone you can at a meeting and encourage them to “get more information” as their leader most certainly will be saying at that meeting.

    You’ve got a dynamite opportunity to truly help some people. Please. Please. Please take it.

  76. Brent Hansen permalink
    August 14, 2012 7:50 pm


    Are you sure your not an MLM compensation expert, you have in down to a “T”…hahaha..very astute!

  77. August 14, 2012 8:17 pm

    Blues brothers baptist church (I like that one!), acid douche of a brain, MLM god (darn it I knew that’ve been so!), 60k sheople with their $16k … $860 math, shitline poopline upline downlines matrix…holy cow what a shizzle! This is one of my most productively educational days on this blog. I feel like a very learned exambot. Thanx for gracing the board mother and abass80!

  78. August 14, 2012 8:31 pm


    There are some great resources to deal with cult heads. Start with Steve Hassan’s book Combating Cult Mind Control, the site Download the free ebook Merchants of Deception by Eric Shiebeller (link @ top right) . Also God angle, Consumed By Success and All that Glitters is Not God recommended elsewhere by webelieved. Finally google the works of Rick Ross. All the best!

  79. MustHaveBeenTerribleMother permalink
    August 14, 2012 8:38 pm

    To all of you later evening posters who used to be in TEAM or LIFE and who rose to the upper eschelons: could you please fill me in here as to HOW the Dan Hawkins poopyline/downliner branches got their hooks so very very rapidly into my late 30’s son? Son went to the midwest big summer bash in Milwaukee (cha ching: $125?) and says he’s so far read 10 books and has 7 CDs, I guess. It flourished from there. Until just a few days ago, I’m sitting here, unaware, babysitting for one of his children to save him the money for daycare because he doesn’t have a dime to spare.

    And then I get bombed and solicited a mere 72 hours ago, which left me reading and doing the math like a mad dog ever since.

    @Brent H: you mean I got that convoluted MLM (with hidden double-pyramid pay scheme), just-this-side of legal payment mess correct? WHERE does Hawkins figure in it? Son said Hawkins is pulling down $250k per month!

    72 hours ago, I was a happily retired critical care registered nurse who now has her own laser-cutting business in the craft industry and sells directly to customers online as a hobby. The next thing I knew, everything that I believe I am/have been/how I conduct myself most days, etc., was run into the ground by a screaming son who’s literally screaming at me that I lack vision, am against his dreams, you name it…all because I refused to get into this.

  80. MustHaveBeenTerribleMother permalink
    August 14, 2012 8:51 pm

    @exambot: thanks for the cult book tips (and thanks to others who recommended books/people, too). I hope there’s info in them that deals with older folks dealing with long-grown children who are approaching middle age themselves. I “get it”, of course, about unconditional love, etc., but what got dished out to me was plain screechingly loud verbal elder abuse (especially since his mommy is also going deaf and was wearing a highly tuned headset on the phone when the screaming started—who would do this to their parent and risk the complete deafness of that parent!!). I come from the high, sassy and stupid Turn On/Tune Out generation, but I’ve never quite experienced the utterly disrespectful treatment from a child approaching age 40 himself—-and all over this LIFE scheme. (Of course, when I turn on cable TV, I guess I have to admit that some–but not all, to be sure–of the Gen X and beyond gens sort of promote telling off anyone who doesn’t cater to you, even if it’s your parents.) I am a tough ol’ bird, but this experience was horrendous—thought I was being speared for lunch by the Red Queen down in Alice’s rabbit hole.

  81. MustHaveBeenTerribleMother permalink
    August 14, 2012 9:02 pm

    @webelieved: you mean there’s actually the hoity-toity (tongue-in-cheek here) Ultra Super Supreme Grand Poohbahs literally sitting at a “round table” level? Are these the guys with at least 20 teams each pulling in at least $15,000/month? (That’s in the document of the payment scheme I have for the solid 12-month/yr, biggest bonus sharks). You guys were once one of these? At the risk of you having to repeat what you consider to be old stories….how/why did you guys fall away? And yes, it’s true…as I was very unexpectedly being screamed at by my son….I suddenly saw Elwood and Jake at the back of the Baptist church, with the white light beam illuminating Elwood….at that point, I thought my son was coming through the phone, doing cartwheels to kick me in the face for good measure.

  82. Vogel permalink
    August 14, 2012 9:28 pm

    Oh man! What a glorious day. Mother, you are absolutely the most hysterical witty grandma EVER – a real pistol! 🙂 And abass80 — acid douche of the brain”!!! You both had me literally laughing out loud. The men that are giving you grief are CRAZY! You’re both worth your weight in gold. You’ll find this experience cathartic. It’ll give you a chance to breathe and collect your thoughts before making the next move — and have some fun with new like-minded friends. Cheers!

  83. Vogel permalink
    August 14, 2012 9:30 pm

    Oh no…did that sound culty? Oops…sorry. 🙂

  84. MustHaveBeenTerribleMother permalink
    August 14, 2012 9:36 pm

    @Betty: took the time to go back to older posts….and have to tell you: I, too, could tell something was going on with my son because of his CHANGE IN VOICE AND DEMEANOR AND APPROACH (part of the initial indoctrination as to approach to get subscribers?). I didn’t know he was in this bonafide cult, but suddenly, at first he became very polite, saying ‘thank you’ to me for everything I did for him, asking me if it was a good time to call for something, etc., which is uncharacteristic. We went from Ma Barker’s son to Donald Trump’s—overnight almost….but it was a ruse….because…

    Then, like a resurrected saber-tooth tiger, he came in for the kill….the day he solicited me to join….and when I resisted, what I heard come out of his mouth would have embarrassed Linda Blair in the exorcist as her head was spinning a 360.

    I went to a calendar, and sure enough….I could then plot the voice/behavior changes, etc, and co-ordinate it with: how/when we relieved him of financial pressure by buying something for him and giving money, to the time when he got into the cult and where he got the extra money from for meetings/books/CDs…..and to the final hell which got unleased on us. In a few short weeks, he went from saying ‘thank you’ to literally screaming at the top of his lungs that, in essence, I guess, I was the dream-stealing scum of his life.

  85. MustHaveBeenTerribleMother permalink
    August 14, 2012 9:40 pm

    @Vogel: cheers back at ya…and I’ll tell my husband what you said…’cause if he had gold matching my weight… son, and possibly the entire block, considering the price of gold at the moment, wouldn’t need LIFE for anything! LOL!!

  86. MustHaveBeenTerribleMother permalink
    August 14, 2012 9:50 pm

    @NoTeamForMe: one last question tonight (and sorry to all for hogging the board today) re: costs: are you kidding me???!!! It could end up costing my kid $5k to $15k per annum?!! I was reading your post to bass80, and you mentioned saving people from this. Please, tell me more about this… it because of all of those incessant meetings, driving, monthly subscriptions, etc.? Son is in LIFE, and I’m assuming he’s likely, at this point, maybe spent about $500 or so between the big meeting, mental challenge test, first CDs/books (he got a lot of books/CDs from an upliner, too). Technically, he does not even have this much to spend at this time. How/what/when/where/why do members spend this kind of dough?

  87. MustHaveBeenTerribleMother permalink
    August 15, 2012 6:10 am

    @webelieved: thanks, once again, for all you had to say–I’ll be watching my son’s family for the progression of this. Thank goodness I have a very staunch, kick-ass daughter-in-law who’d likely clock him with a frying pan before she’d let her children get neglected.

    But is there any way to get more concrete, irrefutable examples of people in the latest LIFE gig, just selling CDs, subscriptions, tests, etc? I’d like to know HOW those at the top screwed someone out of their money. And the reference to the Peters….that can’t be about LIFE, can it? I will go back and read that, but I hope it’s not about Mon Avie. Mon Avie data will not be accepted by my son when I try to refute.

    Put another way: I need actual, specific actions committed against members in LIFE as it is now–it can’t look like sour grapes hearsay–need facts and figures. You guys surely know this website is being bashed at meetings, too, right? . Remember: I’ve already been verbally bashed by my son because I was on your site, trying to glean info, etc.

    But I’ll go reread the Peters stuff now—maybe have more questions for you, too.

    Also: just how high up were you in the proverbial upline? I’m asking because I have got to be able to blast something back, like: “I talked to someone who is an ex-Triple Crown Life Coach, and this is their experience…” in order to get my son to listen to me. I am looking for a life coach at any of these “poohbah” levels: executive, double, triple, crown or crown ambassador. This is the scheme they give in their “Leader Development Commisssion Bonus” 10-page document.

    I KNOW there are good people who got sucked into the dream of it all….I just don’t want to see my son to end up devastated in the end. What the heck are we, the parents going to do if he ends up enormously successful for a few years? (but he’s not a very good salesman, though, so I doubt it.)

  88. No Team For Me permalink
    August 15, 2012 6:33 am

    musthavebeenaterriblemother – LIFE just got started this past November. Orrin and crew have a habit of re-inventing the past every few years. And somehow, each time they do, they make it sounds as if they can erase all references to the previous companies failures because “this is a brand new business”. If so, then why are over 95% of the LIFE leaders people who actually built their business with Amway, Quixtar or MonaVie. The top leaders have been retired for about 10 years. How can this be if LIFE just started this past November.

    The key to understanding LIFE is to become educated on their past history and pattern with the other companies they have been involved with.

    I have never personally seen one organization so negatively affect so many lives. (Based on my own personal experiences)

  89. MustHaveBeenTerribleMother permalink
    August 15, 2012 6:57 am

    ABOUT WHAT JOHN GRAFF SAID–what a hoot!! QUOTE: “So; to sum up, what Penny and I do for a living – is build communities of people through a proven system provided by the Team. That community then picks and chooses through the LIFE business, what areas of information they want improvement in. This in-turn generates revenues back those who actually build the community! I sincerely hope that makes sense.”

    This is absolutely LUDICROUS! building communities (of mind-numbed automatons?) leads to picking and choosing what you would like to “improve” on………and this generates REVENUES??? Are they serious? This is just plain stupid! And this appeared in his article on the 8F’s. Okay, so someone here please tell me: let’s say that of the 8Fs, on a personal level I want to improve on FAITH. How the heck does this generate revenue?

    I still can’t seem to find the Peters story again….I must be getting side-tracked in all of the BS :)))))

  90. Brent Hansen permalink
    August 15, 2012 7:53 am

    @MustHaveBeenATerribleMother, You wrote, “But is there any way to get more concrete, irrefutable examples of people in the latest LIFE gig, just selling CDs, subscriptions, tests, etc? I’d like to know HOW those at the top screwed someone out of their money.”

    All of the concrete evidence one needs is to understand this video on YouTube, and the Compensation Plan Analysis here on this blog. Allocation of compensation dollars exposes the intent of the plan and the practice employed. Ask your son if he has his 3 customers yet so his subscription is paid for.

  91. Brent Hansen permalink
    August 15, 2012 7:54 am

    Don’t forget parts 2 and 3, that is where the real numbers are exposed.

  92. MustHaveBeenTerribleMother permalink
    August 15, 2012 8:21 am

    Brent: thanks…where do I get videos #2 and #3? Are they going to tell me anything morme than the 10 page document I have here that deals with this and all of the “poohbah” levels, one-time bonuses, etc.? I just don’t feel like I’m getting what I need from LIFE materials that they put out…it’s as if the same thing is said over and over and over. I LOVE the way they made it look in video #1, that if you fail, it’s YOUR fault, and never mind that the manufactured value of the time is cents on the dollar compared to what they are bringing in–LOL!!

  93. MustHaveBeenTerribleMother permalink
    August 15, 2012 8:35 am

    @Brent and everyone: holy cow….now I’m getting better numbers…just looked at the actual cost of materials for LIFE….just think: their price list totals almost $1428 if you buy one of everything offered……if all 60,000 people they claim they have now would buy one of each, we are talking about $85,680,000!!! Did my calculator do that right? I am astonished, especially when I think about all of the re-purchases when it’s time for more brochure packs, etc.

    What I did NOT see on the list, which would make this grow quite a bit, too, is the mental fitness challenge test for about $268 per pop….that multiplied by 60,000 members at one each is: $16, 080, 000! And according to the actual compensation scheme…a LOT of this is floating to the top! I almost CHOKED, literally, when this group defined “success” as breaking even on a $50/mo investment.

  94. MustHaveBeenTerribleMother permalink
    August 15, 2012 9:16 am

    @any of you who care to comment: okay, I’ve read about the Peters and the Morgans, etc. What it seems like is happening is that the top 5 scheisters, at will, might move people around that leaders have brought in, all in an effort to reward their pets of the moment or themselves. I’m speaking of the different “team legs” of the upline/downline scheme.

    Hawkins, who my son is under, looks to be under Guzzardo? So, in other words, if Hawkins could fall out of favor, as some others have, this could have devastating trickle-down effects on “downliners” like my son?

    And no one, not the IRS or FBI not State Attorney General Offices, etc., are watching these clowns?!!

    Some of you have by now guessed, we, too, are in SE Wisconsin….I simply cannot believe this is happening in our family!! My grandchildren are going to be so adversely affected by this–in a growing family already hurting for cash– that I would like to find Hawkins and some of his leaders and DO something about this! But alas, I have no control over what an almost 40 yr old “child” of mine does.

    (note: IMHO: some of those horror stories need to be edited for grammar and punctuation–they are almost impossible to read as run-on sentences that must be 3 to 5 pages long if printed out–I say this because there is SO much to digest and it’s crucial info.)

  95. August 15, 2012 9:18 am

    @MustHaveBeenTerribleMother – regarding the $250,000 per month income claim for the Hawkins… The actual number is really not important to verify to disprove. What you should be asking your son is “Where this money is coming from? Is it from the sales of products to end consumers? Or is it from the sale of products to people inside of TEAM/LIFE?”

    Bottom-line is that the members in TEAM/LIFE are paying their uplines to be leaders? This begs the philosophical question, “If no one pays the TEAM/LIFE leaders, are they still leaders?”

  96. Brent Hansen permalink
    August 15, 2012 9:41 am

    @MustHaveBeenATerribleMother, simply mouse over the posted video and click on the title that is in white. It will link you to YouTube and part 2 and 3.

  97. Brent Hansen permalink
    August 15, 2012 9:57 am

    @MustHaveBeenATerribleMother, I read your post about the video and misunderstood what you were saying. This video was not done by someone from Life, it was done to help people understand exactly where the money is at within the comp plan.

    MLM compensation plans are so weighted to benefit the “professional” networker that if one could earn $50, or enough to cover a personal subscription, that would put them in the top 5% of all income earners in the entire industry. Only around 5% can cover their own purchases, and an infinitely smaller number actually earn some money. Networkers tout that failure to earn is caused by lack of effort, but that is simply not true.

    Perhaps there is nothing that could give a more accurate portrayal than this document.

    Click to access WheresTheHarm.pdf

  98. MustHaveBeenTerribleMother permalink
    August 15, 2012 10:01 am

    @AMTHRAX: ohhhhh, I see what you mean here. Correct me if I’m wrong, (and I’ll preface this by saying that LIFE does state up front that if you sell to non-registered consumers, you’ll never get a sales commission): most money generated is from the $1428 list of CD/DVD/TEST/BROCHURE goods (euphamistically referred to as “tools”) that MEMBERS are buying in their efforts to become different levels of leaders vs. bringing in new subscriptions, of which (until one reaches much larger amounts of money and the percentage cut increases) a member bringing someone else in only gets $2.50, etc.? And that THIS is how people like Hawkins are getting rich, i.e., off of the backs of their downliners and NOT by selling to end-consumers?

  99. MustHaveBeenTerribleMother permalink
    August 15, 2012 10:15 am

    @Brent: Thank you– I got that chart you posted—amazing analytical comparisons–and was shocked to see how bad an Amway distributorship can be. And now I see how Woody stays just within the law, i.e., selling ultra low-cost-to-produce goods on paper (or CD/DVD) so that it’s not illegal and they avoid getting called a “pyramid scheme that sells nothing”, even though they have at least two payment pyramid schemes buried within their MLM. This then shores up what AMTHRAX is trying to show me, I think: that mostly, it’s leaders up the line are actually making money off of the “oppressed” downliners (not end consumers), and sooner or later, the house of cards has to fall?

  100. MustHaveBeenTerribleMother permalink
    August 15, 2012 3:29 pm

    @webelieved etal: well, I just got done reading Guzzardo’s website. You know, I do NOT necessarily disagree with their views on “progressivism”, etc., based upon US historical data and quotes or references to ancient Rome and it’s decline thereof. What I dislike are the blanket statements made about education, without telling the other side of the story or giving rationales for how public education developed from other perspectives.

    Let me digress for a moment: in WWII, there was a terrible need for nurses. A fast system of developing an RN was put together. It worked. They needed nurses desperately. This, then, became the two year programs which are being phased out. It served a purpose..

    Back to the topic: NOW I see where my son got some of the hurtful BULLCRAP he hurled at me, i.e., I guess because I majored in registered nursing at a Jesuit University, SUPPOSEDLY ACCORDING TO LORD GUZZARDOI didn’t learn the classics, etc., and this caused me to become an American, non-entrepeneurial sheep lead to slaughter by a sneacky government.

    And supposedly too uneducated not realize I was losing my freedoms with increased taxation, wasteful bureaucratic red-tape spendin, the printing of worthless US dollars, etc., etc. Never mind that I grew up listening to William Proxmire come out every little while about the “Fleecing of America” in wasteful spending, etc.

    Um…I’m here to tell my snot-nosed little brat that I surely did study the classics, sociology, philosophy and some economics, and there were college requirements where I went, which required 9 credits in Theology and I happened to get a minor in Anthropology, too. Oh, and in grad school, we studied and pulled apart the MMPI, which is how I know the Mental Pre-Fitness Challenge test is rigged to almost guarantee certain results.

    Well, here’s one flaw in the ‘sunshine up your LIFE membership deluded butt show” to begin with: if Orrin and Co. need to tell ANYONE out there that we’ve lost some of this—some of the freedom that was in the mind of Thomas Jefferson, etal (who by the way ALSO did not want to see too much religion in politics, and actually wrote it out/spoke of it at a Baptist Church meeting), and now in 2012, they feel the need to rehash Marx and Engels again, and bring in theories that most younger folks might need to learn in the first place,

    THEY SHOULD BE MORE WORRIED THAT THE MAJORITY OF AMERICANS CAN ONLY READ AT THE SOPHOMORE IN HIGH SCHOOL LEVEL (this has more to do with quality and funding than content). They should be MORE worried about what I have termed since the advent of cable TV: “the dumbing down of America”. Nowadays, you even have to hunt for international news, etc.

    But, you see, if they worried about the basics, such as the reading levels of those they were bringing into LIFE, then the HYPOCRITES wouldn’t have their own sheep to snow over, i.e., use such convoluted language and payment schemes on their sheep so as to not notice the top-heavy pyramidal-like thefts going on.

    THE HYPOCRITES ARE USING THE BOOMERANG METHOD TO MAKE MONEY: tell the people this country is going to hell-in-a-handbasket by rehashing the Edwardian Era Wilson Progressive politics, etc., then go back and holler about 18th and 19th century politics with the Fall of the Roman Empire for desert: and make them believe that all hope for entrepeneurial freedom will be lost if you don’t joing LIFE.

    Excuse the long-winded tirade. I get madder by the day here, because I am starting to see just how LIFE deluded and non-thinking my own kid is. It’s shocking!

    And PS: for anyone reading this who’s of retirement age like I am. Again, these LIFE guys, too, mention that we seniors are getting “entitlements.” We paid into the system, some of us for over 40 years! This past year, there was a 69 billion dollar SS surplus! If they choose to bail out Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, it is NOT the fault of the volume of baby boomer retirees! It WAS working, and there WAS enough to keep it going.

  101. MustHaveBeenTerribleMother permalink
    August 15, 2012 3:33 pm

    excuse typos in above post, e.g., sneacky (sic), etc.

  102. MustHaveBeenTerribleMother permalink
    August 15, 2012 3:35 pm

    More typos, sorry: man, I wish I had a spell checker on here: desert=dessert; joing=join, etc. Get too riled up when I type like an insulted mad-woman.

  103. Vogel permalink
    August 15, 2012 7:27 pm

    People like you, Mother, are a con-man’s worst nightmare. I almost pity LIFE for having unleashed the beast, so to speak. They messed with the wrong grandma.

  104. MustHaveBeenTerribleMother permalink
    August 16, 2012 3:52 am

    @Vogel: LOL!! Normally, I’m just a raucous white-haired ol’ granny who minds her own business, but I just woke up from an anti-LIFE nightmare and the result is: I’d like to stop these guys before my grandchildren end up homeless a few years from now. Feeling like a caged rat here because I fully realize my son is a grown man, albeit a duped one at the moment.

    I just have to learn to proofread before I post stuff. Why? Because the more eloquent and factual we sound, the more believeable it will be to the next poor person out there desperately seeking answers. Example: the Peters and Morgan stories: would be so much more readable if someone would go in and fix the grammar, explain insider words, and paragraph new thoughts—it’s almost unreadable to the uninformed—but these are such important stories!

    BTW: just so everyone knows: to those that are ex-members here helping us, my comments are NOT mean for you, e.g.., comments like reading at the sophomore in HS level, or calling something too stupid to believe–I realize there is a big difference in being there in person getting indoctrinated, etc. IF I HAD NOT FOUND YOU GUYS FIRST, I MIGHT BE GETTING SOAKED OUT OF MY FIRST MEMBERSHIP PAYMENT–YIKES!. Oh, well (said sadly and feeling helpless) my kid is a smart guy, but I never saw him crack a book, yet now I guess Orrin’s henchmen have him well-versed in the classics of Plato’s Ancient Greece and Wilson’s Progressivism from the summer meeting. Gag me with a copy of the Communist Manifesto. (Hey, Guzzardo: I did a term paper on the Manifesto as a high school junior in 1968 in a PUBLIC HS EDUCATION….kiss my uneducated heinie)

    I hope these snowballing jerks read your website…maybe they’ll figure out who my son is by the location/age/situations, and ease him out of their LIFE (yes, double meaning intended). Picture it: next big meeting a new speaker gets up: “okay, which one of you almost-40’s somethings is the empty-walleted, two-child family man with the insulted monther from SE WI”? “Oh, you? You’re out ‘a here!” (This would be a dream come true if it happened early, before all money lost)

  105. MustHaveBeenTerribleMother permalink
    August 16, 2012 3:58 am

    Vogel: Bwahahaha! See? I still can’t seem to spell, sitting here in the dark typing. monther=mother, etc. Maybe the ol’ lady should put on the lights and her glasses once before she types. Actually, I am astounded at the depth of my anger against LIFE. I think LIFE must stand for LOVE IT/F**K EVERYONE.

  106. Vogel permalink
    August 16, 2012 7:58 am

    We’ve all learned to be forgiving of typos; it;s the nature of the beast when you can’t go back and edit posts, so don’t fret too much. Your message is still coming through loud and clear.

    You touched on something that’s always annoyed me about TEAM/LIFE/Monavie; namely, the anti-education messages. They mock education and university as though it’s something only a true idiot would pursue, while the “real geniuses” are in the MLM game. ROFL!

    It makes me sick to see people being spoon-fed a steady diet of self-help books exclusively. The goal is to suppress intellectual curiosity and replace it with pure unbridled greed.

    They have the same snide contempt for “jobs”, which they lambaste as something that only a dim-witted slave would want.

    But from what I can gather, a lot of the top people are working regular jobs on the side and all aspire to send their kids to college someday. They just don’t want anyone’s else’s kid going to college because they want that tuition money. So selfish and destructive. How do they not choke on their own hypocrisy?

  107. MustHaveBeenTerribleMother permalink
    August 16, 2012 9:00 am

    Vogel: yup, I’ve gotten the same not-so-subliminal messages from what my son had to say, too.

    In less than ONE MONTH under one of Hawkins’s Poohbah downliners, he was already questioning everyone’s education, how we’d all been taught the wrong things, especially in public education, college, etc., without having the context of the development of institutions or other viewpoints count for squat.

    Lordy!! Even I read the claptrap about how those basically taught a trade or profession are missing the, um, ancient and esoteric works of everyone from Plato to Karl Marx….and therefore must be deluded about what government/politics/economy have done to keep us all slaves, swimming in fecal rivers of mediocrity.

    Know what I, in a temporary moment of loss of cool hurled back at my kid? “Just remember where your expensiveBMX dirt bikes, racing suits, racing weekends and new bedroom set came from, buddy!! My first paycheck as a critical care RN while working in a facility that took in the real life patients you saw in the TV series E.R.!!” ( I was working in life/death situations daily for $8,50/hr when the auto workers were crabbing about $22.50/hr not being enough money. But no, I am NOT against unions…getting into one was the first time I was actually protected on the job. Remember, I’m from WI…sitting amidst the fallout between the left wing dems and the off-the-wall right wing repubs)

    Okay, so now I’m just a deviant meany who looks stuff up on the internet to get confrontational about his life goals and I’m always against him…blah, blah, blah (Cha-ching!! I smell the acrid indoctrination again of the WOODWARD WITCH CAULDRON, telling them this and other sites are full of liar-bloggers, etc)


  108. freedomhaha permalink
    August 16, 2012 10:17 am

    TerribleMother- All of the PC (policy council) do follow this blog. A couple months ago Claude Hamilton even officially followed it! We have with good knowledge that the others all read it and refer to it as “the blog”. When things are called to their attention via the freedom that is this blog then they make changes to try and cover them up on their own blogs.

    You are an outstanding contributor to this site, and I know that what you do will save a lot of lives.

  109. MustHaveBeenTerribleMother permalink
    August 16, 2012 4:43 pm





    Am I hallucinatin’ here? Is he really THIS arrogant…this squeaky-voiced little man who claimed he was broke )as an engineer from GM) when he started his own first MLM?

    Where the Sam Hell or Sam Walton is George Orwell when ya need him —yikes!

  110. MustHaveBeenTerribleMother permalink
    August 16, 2012 10:31 pm

    webelieved: go over to the foreclosures thread if you’re bored…I accidentally posted more of what I heard in that 2011 video which is now on the wrong thread (not that you haven’t heard it before, I suppose, but this is a newbie’s shocked perspective)………I almost fainted when I heard Woodfart use George Washington and his own Woodward immigrating ancestors in an analogy (to wit: I suggested the ancestors should have either thrown the sperm or the egg overboard to spare us the current generation)…….leading of course, to the savior of the US of A….HIMSELF.

    Is he just plain megalomaniacally stupid? I mean, who in their right mind would compare George Washington, Wal-Mart and McDonald’s “outdated” franchises/founders to his own IDEA OF HIS NEXT-GENERATION GET RICH QUICK SCHEME, and how he was going to be bigger and better than all of them. He sounded like he would become a world leader. Gees, maybe this is the Christian concept of the Anti-Christ? Better check his neck for the 666 tattoo.

    I was listening to this video with a retired auditor of one of the largest TV/cable companies in the US. All this person could keep saying was: “Oh. My. God.” throughout this eye-opening mind-wash.

    One thing I didn’t get to post from the video was the mumbo-jumbo about:

    “If you don’t have $45 (note: hmmmm, I see the price of admission went up a fin between Aug and Nov of 2011, eh? Little inflation there?), just bring us three new members, and we’ll give you yours for absolutely FREE.” (Um, I guess that changed, too, eh? Because in reality, they have 6 months to produce the $150/3 members, and now they get the grand amount of $2.50/head or 5% of that amount)

    Oh, and he made sure to rub it in about how the audience (which was likely just full of Mon Avie people? I noticed one lady in the audience did not clap during the hysteria of the suggestion he’d make everyone millionaires) was getting this night for free—sounded like one of those Brits doing a Kaboom commercial.

  111. MustHaveBeenTerribleMother permalink
    August 17, 2012 6:42 am

    @webelieved: as a newbie who only received the indirect fallout of this despicable acid-wash of the brain (as abass80 put it), I hope you don’t think I sit in judgment of people who were once in any of Woodward’s schemes. I don’t. Not at all. I may, in my vehemence, say things like: how can people be so stupid, etc., but I don’t mean it that way as a direct insult to any of you on here trying to hard to deprogram. I have only begun to “feel your pain” of what you have experienced.

    Oh, and as an aside, in your long post above, it was frightening to read the progression, and how deeply TEAM/LIFE had clawed into my son in a mere matter of less than two months into it

    I hate to admit this, but because my son is so desperate in his personal life, with his own emotional turmoils, and the economy, and having two babies, etc., he probably came across as the perfect candidate for induction/indoctrination. Eveything you have said, based upon what my own son blasted me with, I now know to be true. Almost line for line as you have described it.

  112. MustHaveBeenTerribleMother permalink
    August 17, 2012 6:55 am

    @webelieved: Was it you who mentioned that the group of you need to move on to a next step to help combat these megalomaniacs? Somewhere in a recent thread, one of you did.

    I am just a retired professional who was once a research assistant in one of those, um, mediocre higher education systems while in graduate school (big grin), but that position did more for me than all of the rest of the education.

    IMHO: this site AMTHRAX is a “godsend”, BUT: it takes too much mining of data; too much reading of blogs to begin to discern that there’s something CONCRETELY, PROVABLY amiss out there in this Type-B business scheme, etc. THIS IS NOT CRITICISM. IT IS AN OBSERVATION. Why? IMHO: you need to somehow “sell the truth”, with a website almost set up with an eye-pleasing, encyclopedic format.

    You direct victims of the multiple iterations of this scam hold a wealth of information and facts. If it takes contributions to begin such a site, I know that I, for one, would contribute–EVEN IF MY SON DECIDES TOMORROW TO DROP THIS DREAM.

    To those like me who have family/friends who are duped, or perhaps you, yourself have a niggling feeling that “somethin’ just ain’t right” (from Keith Sweat’s old song), I’d humbly suggest you learn the basic tenets of doing scientific research. One of those mediocre PhDs from a mediocre university (as Woodward would have you believe they are), taught me this when I finally got my first chance at going to college as a 29 yr old mother of the 5 yr old child, who now as a grown man nearing true middle age himself ,calls me a dream slayer who does not support him.

    1st: define the problem and subset of problems. This can be done sometimes by working backwards, e.g.,: my neighbor is obsessed about trying to drag me into this business and work backwards if need be. Example from medicine: it was statistically significant that those with diabetes, at certain times of the day, seem to have the highest blood sugar of a 24 hr period. This was, then. a statistically significant observation.

    The 2nd thing to do is: find out YOUR’S and the originator’s ASSUMPTIONS about TEAM/LIFE. That’s right: two sets of assumptions. For me, once I got over my initial upset, shock, etc., I realized I had to find/watch/listen to the originator of TEAM/LIFE himself. This took almost a week to sift through my own emotions and get over the shock that there were some bright people out here who were in it for years before walking back into the light of their own critical thinking. (note: It does NOT mean I am “better” than anyone else—for the people on here right now for me, are in the position of being my mother—my Mom died when I was only 36 yrs old; my father died at 95, mentally impaired. There is no one to talk to about this travesty of TEAM.LIFE. It was like swimming in a sea of depressing insanity–until I found you guys.)

    Example: One would almost immediately ASSUME that something goes on during the sleep cycles of the diabetic.

    The problem to be overcome now is: one must devise a truly random, non-biased test to prove one’s assumption, and avoid the tunnel vision many scientists every day still fall in to. The data cannot be manipulated to get the answer you want, i.e., prove your assumption. Too many fail to realize that disproving your own assumption can be just as “statistically significant.” (This term alone means yes, you also have to do the math and apply basic statistics eventually) TO BE CONTINUED….

  113. MustHaveBeenTerribleMother permalink
    August 17, 2012 7:09 am


    Okay, How does this process apply to TEAM/LIFE? Go to U-tube and listen to Orrin Woodward spew his spiel in August of 2011 about a business plan he launches in November of 2011.

    Example: Erroneously, I initially assumed my son was just displaying very immature emotional behavior toward me (wouldn’t be the first time). I also erroneously assumed TEAM.LIFE was just your typical pyramid scheme, instead of a type-B business with hidden double pyramid schemes of payment, selling minimal-cost-to-produce “products”. And worst of all: initially I assumed that Woodward etal., may have started this with the best of intentions.

    Some of my assumptions were proven wrong. This video proves beyond a doubt that:

    1) Orrin Woodward displays an ego completely out of line with his scheme of selling essentially worthless items that could be gotten for “free” via other books, common education, etc.

    2) It’s not possible in his scheme, as he claimed, to take a billion and make everyone a millionaire, simply because of “doing the math”, realizing from the good people on here what his other business background is, etc.

    3) how the indoctrination begins, i.e., if one screams it loud enough and often enough as a peddler of dreams, the carnival suckers will buy it. I, as the peddler, can even get by with using my own surname in the same breath with that of George Washington and, I guess, how lucky everyone is that the Woodward ancestors came here so that they could produce a savior like, gulp, Woodward–who will alleviate the oppression and neglect of the masses. I can claim that while I admire the passe’ big box discount-seller or hamburger flippers, that I’ve got THE idea that will turn the UNITED STATES OF AMERICA around educationally and economically, and get us back to the basics of the founding fathers’ ideas.

    You other newbies go and LISTEN…you go listen to that Utube video of Orrin Woodward from August of 2011. Listen to it over and over.

    Then come back and read what his victims have passionately been trying to tell you. I did. It’s frightening.

  114. MustHaveBeenTerribleMother permalink
    August 17, 2012 8:01 am


    First a digression to my diabetes level examples: What scientific repeatable investigation found : blood sugar during fasting hours tends to be highest in the early morning. This result was found via irrefutable samples taken from diabetic “victims” many years ago, after the problem/assumptions were defined that indeed, a problem existed during a certain time of day.

    With the “selling a dream” of TEAM/LIFE (as in Woodward’s 2011 U-tube video), as a newbie trying to define a problem and find the assumptions, you are forced to rely upon common sense

    of what is “usual and customary” in earning money in different facets of American life,

    of what is usual and customary in sales-selling relationships with family/friends, ,

    AND, you must analyze the words of the founder of the idea.

    It is not up to you, the listener, nor should it be your burden as the listener to wonder if there’s double-speak meaning, or wonder if you “don’t get it” because you’re not an insider waiting for revelations.

    You have defined the problem and listed the assumptions. You’ve listened to the founder’s words, watched his body language, tonal inflections.

    Now that anyone out there who cares to watch the August 2011 video can or has done it: Woodward can never deny this, for it is fact that he said it: IF his words are taken to heart, then he postured himself as a 21st Century Moses leading the down-trodden, the oppressed, the forgotten…. to the promised land, (albeit Moses didn’t posture himself as a god, where Woodward almost did by making claims that NO ONE would ever have a similar business as good as his, if only you would follow him). He said, straight out: instead of one billionaire, he’d take that money of the billion and may everyone millionaires. He claimed no other MLM like his would ever be as great because of a man named Chris Brady.

    There’s only ONE WAY now that you could not realize there’s something inductively and deductively wrong with Orrin Woodward———> you refuse to define RATIONAL assumptions in order to evaluate the rest. .(Note: I had defined an irrational assumption to begin with, and that’s where I went wrong. Assumption was: that maybe Woodward started this latest scheme of his with the best of intentions)

    If you fail to define your own RATIONAL assumptions about this business and founder-intent, etc., you cannot “see the light”. It’s skewed because you’ve already been “sold” just on assumptions.

    IMHO: This, then, is what steals the critical thinking capability of average, or even above-average abstract-thinking adults. The faucet is off, almost from the get-go.

  115. Former Round Table permalink
    August 17, 2012 8:15 am

    Mother — I LOVE you!! I would be honored to be your kid. (Except I’m too old, but I still love you!) Keep up the great work!

  116. freedomhaha permalink
    August 17, 2012 8:26 am

    Mother- I think your idea of “taking the next step” is a great one. I personally know dozens of people that have quit because of this forum, but I know we can reach more! I am on board for whatever comes next in the work to stop the TEAM cult.

  117. MustHaveBeenTerribleMother permalink
    August 17, 2012 8:28 am

    EPILOGUE And then, alas….one day you wake up devastated, realizing that from the first words promising the “deserved life in the promised land”, you never once considered, i.e., ASSUMED that Orrin Woodward may not have had the best of intentions to begin with.

    (note: from above statement: Or you are devastated because you’ve been tossed on the dream-slayer slime heap due to a family member spewing Woodyisms while he goose-steps to poverty, etc.)

    In other words: you only have/had Woodward’s words of intent, enthusiasm, repetitiveness, “I’m your best buddy” body language, his muted admiration of past business successess of others, his reference to history, his “I’m your antidote to being downtrodden, broke and forgotton”, etc., etc……..

    but in the beginning, you (and I) did NOT stop to look at it more logically or scientifically, and establish a list of problem(s) and assumptions: yours and Woodward’s—-because if you had, the RATIONAL and more scientific conclusions would have been far different.

    We all commit these errors in our lives, either directly or indirectly. We live in a world indoctrinated by religious faith of one sort or another, not something tangible or provable in the natural world. In a way, we will always believe like innocent children in our hearts that planet Earth truly IS the center of the Universe, not a speck of a blue ball with a thinking species buried in a pinwheel arm of a large galaxy–a thought almost intolerable to to humanity since we became aware of ourselves as high-thinking beings.

    No wonder we fall prey, time after time, to the next big schemer. It’s almost TAUGHT to us…

  118. MustHaveBeenTerribleMother permalink
    August 17, 2012 8:45 am

    To all of you who just replied before I put up the Epilogue: hey, you guys are the experts…it wasn’t my idea to take it to the next level. One of you mentioned this in th epast few days.

    One of you said that you know of dozens who quit TEAM/LIFE because of this forum…well, here’s an idea: use everyone you people can find to tell their readable story, told in a certain format. In other words, a special blog area, just with newbie stories, but they receive “telling guidelines or points” to include in a logical manner, where insider terms are explained, etc. Make the form guide them toward concrete, tangible examples of the fallout. This will become historical date, easily picked out by the next person who comes along and who had gone through the same thing.

    Hey, I’m just a retired ol’ grandma here, but I know that if the info had been set up a little differently when I first got here (again, not criticizing), I’d have “seen the light” much faster, like Jake and Elwood did the Baptist Church.

    My assumption (LOL!) is that many in my “indirect fallout shoes” don’t even know what the subject matter of threads are referring to when they get here. Only insiders do. Know what I mean?

  119. MustHaveBeenTerribleMother permalink
    August 17, 2012 9:17 am

    confusion correction: historical date = historical DATA in above post.

  120. MustHaveBeenTerribleMother permalink
    August 17, 2012 10:09 am

    And as if y’all aren’t already tired of my blathering today (egad, some days I just can’t turn off my typing fingers about LIFE), ask yourself this (aside from some African school that’s supposedly benefitted from Team/Life):

    have you EVER heard the founder of this scheme tell you to sit back, take stock of your life, and be able to admit that (aside from the starving and homeless on our own streets and tent cities), even in our financial losses and job losses, that a vast majority of us find a way to maintain or rebuild a life that is STILL eons better than the refugee cities of most countries of the world or the backstreets of Calcutta, or even our own neglected, abused animals starving and beaten in the alleys of America.

    No one promised us a rose garden. There will be no true happiness of heart unless one learns to, at least at certain times, accept some cards we’ve been dealt in life and to make those cards work.

    If we desire nothing but to “keep up with the Joneses, or find the Jim Jones guru with the ultimate answers”, there is no true joy. You will never look up at the crystal blue sky, even while wearing a t-shirt with holes and holes in your shoes after you’ve spent your food stamps, and say: “egad, it’s great to be alive today, because there is nothing like this sky to be had elsewhere.”

    For me, when I was down to my last “sandwich” in life (and I have been there 3 times), the true joy came the day I realized that, instead of wringing my hands that it was over or that I could never undo my mistakes, I took the best, 60% portion of that sandwich from my hand when I handed it to someone who only had a crust. It does not mean I wasn’t hungry, too. It doesn’t mean I’m an altruistic pseud-saint Atheist.

    I am an Atheist by informed choice. I do not believe a God is going to make everything better in an afterlife, tossing sinners to hell and taking his/her chosen few through the pearly gates, and that I would be reunited with my family again. Yet I do not judge those who DO believe.

    This means, if I want to die peaceful as I define it for myself, I need to be able to tell myself that my life on earth had meaning for me, that maybe, just maybe, I ended up with that less-fortunate person at that moment in time, just to be able to share my “sandwich.”.

    No, thoughts and actions like this don’t put food on the table. No one said I just sit back in an apathetic stupor and not “try” to fit into my societal norms.

    For clarification of all my prior blather today:


    1) they have taken PROVEN, RETESTED methods of getting people to follow them and woven it into a scheme and ;

    2) they have devised this scheme just inside the law and they have:

    3) surreptitiously attached legal obligations to it that position themselves as infallible in adversity or fallout; and finally,

    4) they have made it almost impossible to RATIONALLY OR SCIENTIFICALLY evaluate them because they’ve taken the fabric of their scam, and woven the rest of the ’emperor’s clothes’ with the invisible thread of FAITH. Faith of all kinds: in a god, in how American families should be, in them as your business and education leaders, etc.

    They KNOW that one cannot reliably test the FAITH portion, so they use FAITH as the invisible thread that holds all together UNTIL a member goes down the so-called life-sewer in a tangible manner.

    Faith, by Woodward, is equated with empirical truisms, although it is the exact opposite. It is the major NULL hypothesis of our lives.

    If there is one aspect of this business that relies on it, using logic and exposing truth will HAVE to be based upon their exact words used and in the correct context.

    Since they claim if you fail, it’s your fault….then there is no other thing to look at besides their stated intent of the business, and actual/factual results like bankruptcies, divorce, poverty, etc., that can result from it.

  121. MustHaveBeenTerribleMother permalink
    August 17, 2012 10:28 am

    @webelieved: I understand and appreciate everything you’ve had to say in your last longer post. And, in fact, I had almost immediately suspected that this site looks the way it does and reads the way it does for just the reasons you gave.

    Again, when I read your words–pre-empted by saying: usually, I ain’t afraid of anything!!!–I actually experience fear in the pit of my stomach….I have not fully disclosed everything I’d like to say about my son and his involvement or situation, because surely, someone from this “sect” aka, team might figure out who we are. But there is true reason for abject fear….in this case, being forewarned is is forearmed when the proverbial crap hits the fan.

  122. MustHaveBeenTerribleMother permalink
    August 17, 2012 10:37 am

    @webelieve: no no no….not about grammar on blogs (that’s hopeless–my dang keyboard won’t even work right when trying to type in this blog box, dropping letters and all, too, besides my own regular mistakes)…I was talking about a web setup where the preprinted, most important stories like those of the Morgans and Peters families are set up with stuff like paragraphs and periods at the ends of sentences, etc., a little bit more, along with supporting documentation as much as possible.

    And, I fully understand none of us are English majors—I, for one, write like a 19th century Victorian wanna be and I can’t seem to stop myself from breaking up phrases, etc.

    And I fully understand the passion against Team/Life….gees, I’m only an indirect victim celebrating the 1 week destruction of a mother/son relationship and I’m already calling him Woodturd, etc. LOL!!

  123. MustHaveBeenTerribleMother permalink
    August 17, 2012 10:54 am

    @webelieved: wait a minute;…..I just sat staring out of the window for a moment to collect my thoughts. Again, maybe this would be a better way of being constructive. The sad matter of fact in business society conduct by those affected by slick and polished business professionals and how to them is this: eventually, to become more believable in your own right, where Woodwardians can no longer ignore the cold, hard facts by telling their members and others that there’s just a few sour-grape failures out there, etc.

    People decimated by them will have to learn to “play their game” in the polish of presentation of the “fallout facts” and how they got there.

    Example: you actually defined one of your own problems here: having to repeat the info for new people coming in, blog fashion.

    Another Example: I’m old enough, and hopefully wise enough (sometimes at least) to realize when I call Orrin Woodward a “Woodturd” , etc., that a consequence may well be that to new people coming on, I may well stand to lose some of my credibility in their eyes, and become the self-fulfilling prophecy that Woodward warned about, i.e., that it’s a few disgruntled defectors. Know what I mean here? But it sure feels good to call him a Woodturd!! LOL!!

  124. MustHaveBeenTerribleMother permalink
    August 17, 2012 11:02 am

    correction to last post, paragraph 1: not “how to them” but how to OUTSMART them…

  125. MustHaveBeenTerribleMother permalink
    August 17, 2012 11:05 am

    @webelieved: Yes, indeedy my friend: SE WI, probably within spitting distance of some of them, and if I were a 4-minute mile runner, within 100 minutes of the place the big summer sunshine up my son’s arse was held at.

  126. Speak Your Truth permalink
    August 17, 2012 2:46 pm


    You are!!! I would adopt you as a grandmother/3rd mother , any day of the week! I would love to sit down and have a day with you!

    I am going to have to spend some, well lots of time digesting your posts….just pray for my attention span to digest it all..haha. Perhaps I am more heart than brains.. Holy smokes some of your posts remind me of Vogel ( I generally need a dictionary, Wikipedia, history, science books etc.. for his posts too, then add the mathematicians in her (Mike & Brent) and their comp plan analysis & videos and holy smokes this site is like going to college all over again!). Still trying to figure out what I will need for yours, lol!

    Now for some brass tacks, You and those I mentioned along with the “experienced” are exactly what these “boys in crime” need and are certainly the force they have “earned” to be reckoned with! I can only imagine who else will find their way to this site! 🙂 Perhaps more mothers/ grandmas like you, we can hope!

    There is a bond that cannot be broken in a mother’s heart for her children that allows them to fight to the death or want to at least slap them straight and they normally don’t give up on either… haha. It may appear your son has forgotten about this, but that is something these crimesters will never take away on a permanent basis. But sadly they have mastered strategically, within a couple good “emotionally” grabbing meetings they have the vulnerable ‘hooked’. They know this and there is a step by step process to ensure this. We have all walked this strategic path and it is mind numbing and is like a drugless high, for most, especially those who fall for this is the “answer” to all of their lifes problems they are immediately experiencing! The masters pay attention to every word and action from a newbie and know exactly how to catch them off guard. Sincerely, the ‘newbie’ doesn’t know they are being blind-sided.

    It has taken most of us A LOT of painful digging, scratching, and reflection to even figure our way out of the dense fog that abrutly starts to suffocates those, once the light starts to come in. This has been the most difficult process for many on here to figure out. So when you said finding “Amthrax, was a “godsend”…you could magnify that a million times and that is how this site has blessed me.

    For me personally, this site started out to be a healing/safe house, so to speak, and began as somewhat of a diary, and to release the anguish , rant, and flush it all out, and to then try and recognize what had happened. The shock , betrayal , lies, deception then started to blow up in my face. But to explain this “process” especially the emotional nightmare is still hard to do; in few words and simple English. If it simply was a game of thievery, and all only lost some money it would be a cake walk to deal with it! But these master manipulators have a effective mind controlling system and they mess with people minds and hearts and that my friend is the most paralyzing and diffi-“cult” to explain and find your way through.

    to be continued…

  127. Speak Your Truth permalink
    August 17, 2012 3:08 pm

    So please forgive us of those early posts, and any other ones too, haha.. Must be very confusing to someone who never was a part of this mind and soul twisting game. Those who think logically and rationally would have a hard time even understanding the lingo and insanity from those captured “emotionally” from this… we probably didn’t make much sense to those outside the cult!

    Over time the pieces begin to come together (other leaders added their stories and experiences about their experience with these criminals) and some of us spoke to many leaders and it was like the puzzle fell together and then of course more shock and it became clearer and clearer!

    This is why the Team LIEF cult cardinal rules of NO “cross-lining” and NO “negative” are punishable by “death of your business” they have people convinced this will destroy or kill their businesses. These are the master keys that finally locks out all internal sources of “information” so they have the inside and outside information contol under extreme control~ also punishment; possibly getting a scolding and condesending looks or people tattling like little school childrem to your upline, their upline and it goes all the way to the top if you are a “leader”!

    Without these “rules” in place though it would certainly help someone figure out that what they “know” in their gut is right! They pound those cardinal rules to the point of almost creating paranoia or at least making you uncomfortable if they see you talking with a cross-line . Chris Brady was extremely anal on the NO “cross-lining” and wasn’t shy about blasting and making it clear from stage his stance! So some ‘uplines’ are always lurking and ready to pounce on you if you “cross-line”. Funny though there were always some who knew that was ‘crossing the line’ and too cultish, controlling and wrong and talked to others anyway. That would have been me..haha! NO ONE tells me who I can or cannot talk to!

    How do you have a “duplicatable system” and being on the same “TEAM” with one “common goal” but can’t even talk to people on that team? The twisted, messages made me sick! They were the Team of Destiny in Amway/ Quixtar,Team” Monavie Team, Team LIEF but their “TEAM” stands for “ together everyone achieves more “but you can’t talk to each other? ..Pfft! Major check mark on the Cult evaluations! Afraid someone would find out their lies, is the real truth and bottom line to those bogus Rules! And where in the World in any Business anywhere can you NOT talk to your colleagues?

    So back to Amthrax site, it all started to help clear that dense fog enough to try and see the “process” of this mind altering belief changing game these fraudsters play. And after a decade and half of experiencing these despicable fakers,liars, and deceivers. I am still pissed and trying to explain it to help others come out of the delirium.

    Sorry for how long winded I can become trying to even scratch the surface of this twisted illusion we have been through, but thanks for all your patience and posts.

    You are a great asset and force to be reckoned with. I think you ought to buy a ticket to the “Big” meeting and use your research great skills…haha…OH boy, I would love to see that! I also believe you have some great ideas and I have much to learn from your posts, Thank YOU! 🙂

  128. MustHaveBeenTerribleMother permalink
    August 17, 2012 3:48 pm

    @Speak Your Truth: um, do you really think I’d complain about the length of anyone else’s posts after the egregious length of my own today? LOL!!

    I read and thought about every single sentence you wrote.

    Not sure if I’d be an asset to your cause or not….I think I wax too philosphical and idealistic at times, compounded by too many phrases in sentences, etc.

    Example: now I’m sitting here with egg on my cyber-face because it suddenly dawned on me that really, a bottom line is: one cannot very well apply much scientific testing to an organization built upon: unheard of egocentricity, the gibberish of combining networking with community-building, the abject twisting of American history, politics, education, early ideals–you name it– (gees, I’d be a little careful about them using the founding of America and the fight for her freedoms, unless they are ready to sweep away the decimation of Native Peoples, etc.), all peppered and suffused with Christian dogma.

    Something about these guys screams: WHITE AMERICAN ANGO-SAXON PROTESTANT SCHIZOPHRENICS…the WASPS who took the ideals of hard work and bastardized it like a side-show magic trick.

    In other words, even if you had a valid problem and a valid assumption, you’d have to be testing some valid point in the first place in order to figure out Woodwardian masters. But it would never be possible because of the fine print in the contract you sign. All of you are correct: you are actually giving them permission to punish you, remove you, remove team personages or whole “legs”, your income, etc. Which begs the question as to why anyone would ever DOUBT what some of the complaints are on this website, eh?

    I’d probably all “get it” better if I took Snake Oil Salesmen lessons while blindfolded and gagged (of which the closest to it has to be the Mon Avie clip I saw of someone hawking “da juice” to Rachel Rae, while claiming it was Oprah’s favorite drink—extraordinary!).

    You were in this for 15 or so years? Wow, well, then I admire your tenacity here, because I’m sure I’d have ended up in a straight-jacket, or worse, a pine box. It’s bad enough to lose it all 3 times when you give your life/job up for parents and lose it all–at least I had a choice and knew in advance it could happen…..but to be blindsided like this, money and values and all….it’s got to feel like the loss of “self” and one’s place/purpose in the world, all at the same time?

    Have any of you ever thought of a class-action lawsuit, perhaps looking at something like Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder? Not saying I know squat about anything; don’t even know if it would be possible, financially or legally.

    This must like being raped over and over and then, when no longer needed, left bound and left for dead in a ravine?

  129. Speak Your Truth permalink
    August 17, 2012 4:55 pm

    Oh mama, trust me YOU are an asset and as I said before exactly the force these “boys” deserve to reckon with! Your post nailed it again! 🙂

  130. MustHaveBeenTerribleMother permalink
    August 17, 2012 6:10 pm

    Thanks, Speak….hey, check this out…


    This Business is not BBB accredited
    Orrin Woodward
    Phone: (810) 603-2795
    9264 Warwick Woods Ct, Grand Blanc, MI 48439
    TYPE OF BUSINESS: “Product Sales–General”

    Okay, so how come, if Dan Hawkins in Wisconsin is a “subcontractor” with his own business, how come he can’t be found?

  131. MustHaveBeenTerribleMother permalink
    August 17, 2012 8:14 pm

    Ex-LIFE’rs: I think I may have found a way to begin curbing the gamut of Woodwardian brain cleansing.

    Perhaps we should discuss this privately?

    At least let me say: look to your own states to find out what constitutes and encompasses having a “business” that needs certain types of licensing or certification for certain aspects of the business. I know EXACTLY which two professions I’m going to use in my investigation, but I need certain propaganda data and verifiable stories/events of what happened to members to compare against what I know to be license-required or certification-required in my state.

    These people cannot, and it would be dangerous to allow certain teaching–actual teaching–in areas that require a certain education, certain certification or license, etc., and to wit: LIFE people—for example, auto mechanic Dan Hawkins knows absolutely NOTHING about what is required to be able to intervene in certain life issues. He opens his mouth on certain topics in talking to someone who is/has a certain thing: voila! Lawsuit city. And a serious lawsuit at that.

    Hypothetical Example: his actions could potentially lead to the suicide of someone because of what he, as the upliner, is expected to be the supreme “controller” of and “counselor” over, When, instead….the shunned families…or possibly even a friend…could have intervened IF IT WERE NOT FOR THEIR CONTROL AND TEACHINGS

    Know what I mean?

    Um, I wonder how legal it is to even give mundane “marriage advice” with no background in it? CDs and books are just that, and probably by an expert……but these people open their mouths, too.

    C’mon here….I am liable if someone slips on the ice on my property’s pedestrian sidewalk BUT these whooyas are responsible for nothing??

    It just can’t be.

  132. MustHaveBeenTerribleMother permalink
    August 17, 2012 8:39 pm

    One more thing, ex-LIFErs: look around you for your assets, large or small….it honestly just dawned on me, for example: one branch of my family started and has run an award-winning newspaper here in WI for over 50 years; they’ve lived here steadily in the same place for over 165 years (meaning people know the name and that’s another asset)….oh, gee….maybe it’s time to try to wrangle for an expose’ article—you know…an article just INSIDE the slander/libel laws, etc.

    One has to beat these scheisters at their own game who’ve ruined and continue to strive to ruin-for-profit good people and their families with LIFE methodologies, “teaching” and control, and lies of the promised land in a scheme with an abhorrent, built-in failure rate..

    They try to shuck all of what they are doing, to absolve themselves of responsibility, by getting us to believe that signing the contract actually DOES absolve them of everything.

    *****Would that be true if actual law-breaking and wrongdoing could be proven?*****

    There must be SOMETHING about doing things like putting a young auto mechanic (no offense to the profession–it’s actually what I wanted to do when young, but got kicked out of HS auto mechanic’s class because of gender back in the 60’s) in charge of people and every aspect of their lives–whether or not their “charges” are healthy or not,



    Said the SNL Church Lady: “well, isn’t that inter—-est—ing”.


  133. MustHaveBeenTerribleMother permalink
    August 17, 2012 9:43 pm

    webelieved: I came back into my email before bed and saw you’d posted. Yes, rape and pillage of the soul and mind, to say nothing of everything else. Just think how bad it is for people who may be more constitutionally and emotionally stable than the next person to recover from this–know what I mean? Some may not recover enough to ever really be able to function again, or worse: not be around to function again after falls like you folks describe.

    Listen, please. You guys have to believe me when I say this situation on our end could end up about as dire as one could imagine. I can’t come out and say out loud what I have been standing guard over for decades–wish I could.

    I only know this: it’s not an “idle threat” to say the following, (because I KNOW Hawkins and my loved one are going to become close–I suspect shortly, Hawkins will be meeting my grandchildren, etc., too. These two guys look like/sound like, have similar looks/backgound, etc…’s like they were meant for each other–it was heart-stopping for me to see it straight off the bat) AND (especially in view of what has happened to others and If there is a 96% chance my loved one will fail, then a parents’ worst nightmare could possibly come true. It almost has, several times):

    So….if the worst would come to pass, or even the almost-worst, I will spend the rest of my life mortgaging down to being in the street myself if I have to, to prosecute Mr. and Mrs. Hawkins first. I will never stop.

    And when I get their money and freedoms taken away, I will turn and focus on their upliners.

    Tell Mr. Hawkins I am watching him—I am looking over his shoulder every moment of every day–I am the “lioness cloud” to his northeast. When he meets my grandchildren: just remember, they have already “gone without” a necessity one of their parents’ could have gotten for them BECAUSE what little money was there, went into the pocket of a now-money-blinded, probably once-conscientious pleasant-looking/sincere-looking 36 yr old sub-contractor, to say NOTHING of what the sub-contractor has aided and abetted in the brain-cleanse of my loved one.

    I have no problems with thirty-somethings running businesses. I was a university instructor and a Director of Nursing in those years, too. I DO have a problem with them helping to alienate family-from-family with their abject, ludicrous, non-sensical, very dangerous bullshit of an ideologies, methodologies, and distortions in an effort to rob people blind, moving cash up the upline as if Newton’s discovery of gravity never happened.

    I DO have a MAJOR problem with them handing out counseling advice of any kind on serious life issues.

    Egad, I’m just so worried and angry….it’s like a pall has come over our lives.

  134. MustHaveBeenTerribleMother permalink
    August 17, 2012 9:44 pm

    Oh, for cryin’ out loud: I meant “…for people who may NOT be more constitutionally able….”

  135. MustHaveBeenTerribleMother permalink
    August 17, 2012 10:45 pm

    webelieved: well, if this is true (re: qualifications), isn’t there any sort of legal recourse? There MUST be some way to work a concept of accountability into the so-called subcontractor contract. Woodward is slick: at every step, he’s worked in some pseudo-safeguards, e.g., the Mental Fitness Challenge (never mind that a lie-detector test on a fidgety jack-rabbit may be more accurate in some instances), and then, everyone pulled in becomes their own independent business. It’s like being stuck in the Soo Locks of Non-Accountability in the transport of bullshit.

  136. MustHaveBeenTerribleMother permalink
    August 17, 2012 10:50 pm

    webelieved: Hey, wait a minute!! Wasn’t there a famous court case about a manual that told someone how to do something dangerous and the writer or publishers got successfully sued?

    What if one took all of the “teachings”, all of the deposed statements/guidance ex-members claimed they got, all of the hype displayed on video, etc., and made a solid, correlating case that the intent was to deceive.

    By the way: I am truly sorry to hear about what happened to you in your troubles, too. Honestly, I can see how this can happen. Um, maybe I was lucky back in the ’80’s when the neighborhood got involved in a simple, cheap, one dollar pyramid scheme…with the result that the cops scared the bejeepers out of all involved.

  137. MustHaveBeenTerribleMother permalink
    August 17, 2012 10:53 pm

    webelieved: and by the way: where does John Graff live? Is he a SE Wisconsinite, too? Must be if he’s under Hawkins. Before this is over, I’m going to find out I’m swimming in a sea of them here in my county…

  138. MustHaveBeenTerribleMother permalink
    August 17, 2012 11:12 pm

    webelieved: I found the Graffs….okay, I was on his website and I can’t pass this one up.

    ANOTHER CASE OF EGOMANIA (we gotta start calling this the WOOD BORER disease or something): CHECK OUT HOW THEY ARE NOW ALSO GOING TO CULTURALLY RESTORE NOT ONLY AMERICA, BUT ALL OF WESTERN CIVILIZATION! Does their “vision” have no logical boundaries? Will they teletrasport themselves next? (if they do, I hope it’s to the Milky Way’s suspected black hole—I hear that’s one spot in the universe they might have to take some responsiblity that they can’t get out of before they implode to the size of a photon, and get spit out the arse-end of the hole as the gaseous substance they spew on earth)

    From the foolish keyboard of John Graff on his own happy sunshine ’em all site:

    “Here we are – fresh off the fall leadership convention. Orrin Woodward anld the-life-business founders, have outdone themselves! How cool is it to stand on the precipice of not just the launch of a new buisness, not just the launch of a whole new industry, but rather, the start of a movement towards cultural restoration in north america, and eventually, western civilization as we know it!”

  139. MustHaveBeenTerribleMother permalink
    August 17, 2012 11:27 pm

    PS: this must mean, Orrin and Pals intend to give ALL of the land back to the Native Americans, right? I mean, we’re all getting culturally-restored, right? Then, we remove all of the disease and bad habits we brought, right? No more alcohol problems for Native Americans, etc.? Then, as we back out to the east, we hand colony land back to the British Empire, right?

    And from there, we swim backwards from whence we came…and we systematically restore Europe and all like-minded westerners, right? Can ya see it? Before ya know it, God Woodward is cutting juice deals with the Visigoths.

    OMG! Orrin Woodward, Chris Brady, etal, have done more to make eventual zealous buffoons/buffoonery of their endeavors, their people, their product and their programs than ANY of us could possibly do to them.

    Is this what happens when auto engineers try to change the world according to Woodward Garp?

  140. MustHaveBeenTerribleMother permalink
    August 18, 2012 12:46 am

    Okay: for the first time in many years, I can’t sleep, so get a load of THIS one from John Graff’s site. So, the innocent-looking 36 yr old auto-mechanic who is John Graff’s mentor said this, too?

    John Graff statement: “For example; regarding finances, I so appreciate what my mentor and co-founder of the LIFE business, Dan Hawkins says, “Beware who you take your advice from, they just might be broke!” ”

    This is beyond outrage–completely. My anger at this little hawk-twerp and the much older buffoon who is Hawkins’ downliner has now passed on to wanting a searing justice for them–to show that you should at LEAST be human before you play god with someone else’s life and family. These guys are just a couple of dope-toads that Woody and his henchmen can keep in line (no offense meant to former members—it must have been truly horrible and demeaning to come out of their clutches, and I DO have the utmost empathy)

    This isn’t funny. This SUPPOSED co-founder (of THIS business? Are you kidding me? What a load!) Hawkins has his claws into a potentially dangerous situation as we see it from our end. This kid (from where I’m sitting, he’s still a kid, younger than my own), has absolutely no idea—NONE–about making statements like these, and then possibly hammering them home, with the potential for a 96-99%+ disasterous outcome for my most beloved person on the planet….

    NO WONDER MY KID WAS SPEWING CRAP LIKE THIS AT ME AFTER BEING AT HAWKBABY’S HOUSE!! (or maybe it was Graff’s house with Hawk there)

    Now I get it: two deluded youngsters and a deluded clown playing bigshots in the sandbox with the clown providing flak-cover by making ridiculous statements about culturally restoring all of Western Civilzation— but….

    only Hawk’s got the the vast majority of the money, and all the while he and the buffoons are encouraging people like my own SON to behave in a juvenile manner with their sarcasm, they are picking my own deluded kid’s pocket.

    If this continues, it will lead to a disaster of untold proportion. In fact, if my son DOES wake up somewhere down the line and survive all of this….it could get ugly. One thing he can’t stand are liars and dupes.

    Gotta get off of here—must stop thinking about this. Don’t want heart failure from stress.

  141. No Team For Me permalink
    August 18, 2012 7:10 am

    musthavebeenaterriblemother – I think you are on to something. I’ve thought that for a long time. They are giving professional advice without a license. And worse, leading others to do the same. Many of these people are leading home meetings and prospects are led to believe these people have answers to their marraige questions, their financial questions, etc.

    In our state, you cannot give financial or marraige advice without a license. And since they are making a profit on the sales of such tools, I believe this should get them in a lot of trouble!!!!

  142. Speak Your Truth permalink
    August 18, 2012 9:03 am

    They all know this but have hired attorney’s to protect them with any legal loophole they can find, just like they do with the ‘customer rules’. Orrin says they have 9000 “customers?” Really? Where is the real customers..”data” without the “loopholes”…hahahaha that is the biggest fricken joke I have heard. I highly doubt, in the decade and half that he was in the “best business bar none”…I mean “illegal pyramid scheme with hopelessly overpriced products” (the guru’s Orrin’s, words) Add in the few short lived years in MV and Team LIEf…I doubt the entire group would ever have had 9000 customers!

    These guys have learned, bought and paid for attorney’s and practiced with the best scammers in the world. They also have the DSA who I thought was suppose to protect and be an advocate for the individuals, after all they have a nice “code of ethics” they say they follow, right…Right?

    Orrin and yes/hench men.. have always been willing to “take the risk”…why? Because they stand the chance to make 100’s of millions of MORE dollars and knew the chances or odds were in their favor of anyone ever “holding them accountable” for all their shady, deceptive and unfair business practices; was worth their “risk”!

    And if anyone tries well they have a nice big “war chest” of cash (in those numerous shell companies)..just waiting to pay attorneys..and if anyone would take them to court they would probably if at all, get a slap on the wrist! Money talks….they count on it! They have hidden behind and counted on Billion Dollar Companies to back them and in their minds they are “untouchable!”

    Here was One of the ways to ‘handle the objection’ of the “illegal pyramid scheme”..(Handling Objections was the stop thinking techniques; to get people to stop asking questions and no doubt it is effective):

    Prospect would say: This is a pyramid scheme..

    Answer: Do you think that Amway has hired “attorneys” and all the other companies and their attorneys that they partnered with them; checked that out before partering..Would they put their companies at risk and join a pyramid scheme?

    Then the prospect would feel stupid for asking… That generally handled the “pyramid scheme” objection that the prospects would continuously give.

    ,And isn’t it amazing they had to come up with that “objection” of it NOT being an “illegal pyramid scheme…And…then orrin sued Quixtar/Amway on those very grounds!!! Lost of course, and as many have stated..they weren’t above …lying under oath! The hypocriscy is more than discusting.

    Eventually, time and luck runs out and sooner or later every con eventually gets caught and they get what they got coming…

    All my comments are based on years of experience and opinions.

  143. Speak Your Truth permalink
    August 18, 2012 9:09 am

    Doesn’t mean people won’t come together and with a ray of hope, could do something great to stop these fraudsters in their tracks! That is what I love about courageous people like Mother and all those on here, who stand up for what is right!

  144. MustHaveBeenTerribleMother permalink
    August 18, 2012 9:10 am

    @webelieved: I think it would have to be proven that som mal-advice came out of the mouth of an upliner who did not, for example, realize they were dealing with someone who may have a condition or be a danger to self and others, etc.

    We were just discussing this here. For example, even though I have a long history as a high-level regional medical center cardiac/trauma/flight for life background, and credentials…and even if I call a doctor when I know someone is going down the tubes, TECHNICALLY SPEAKING, I can only give the OBJECTIVE data.

    Example: a post-operative lung lobe removal patient has a steadily falling blood pressure, higher respiratory rate; is pallid and getting non-responsive. I KNOW just from experience that I can give the diagnosis: probable blood vessel bleed from the operative site, i.e., a slow bleeder.

    But by law, I cannot give the diagnosis…I may only relate the objective visuals and monitor readings. That’s how touchy it is between medicine and nursing.

    However, this is not always true: I have flown as the chief medical officer for the Air National Guard. That day, I was in charge—their “medics” had to listen to me.

    This is just medical examples.

    Give me your real estate examples.

    My question is: how do phoney-balonies keep getting away with it like Southern Baptist rural Bible salesmen who’ve just sold you your 15th Bible out of their well-stocked trunk?

    I think one would need an expert to prove a cause/effect linkage in the case of someone being hurt by the words coming from upliners? (The printed/CD material is likely written/covered by credentialed people, so likely we can’t look at that, UNLESS we could prove it harmful in and of the content alone?”

    Hey, these Woodchip-Brady Bunch-Gizzard-Bloomers are SLICK—they’ve got the money for a team of lawyers who set them up to be almost infallible until the scheme runs it’s course…..all one can do is be diligent and wait for some non-appropriately educated upliner to give harmful advice and be able to prove it? I don’t know—you guys are the insider experts–not me.

    Right now, I don’t know what I would do without you guys…just please know, that if I say anything derogatory in my pain here, I don’t mean it like that–it’s like thinking out loud to oneself for one’s own situation but it affects you guys, too., (like the equivalent of saying stuff like: how stupid can people be to get involved, etc.—I honestly DO know how, and I’ve got the most precious one thing I “did right” in life now in their clutches, too)

  145. MustHaveBeenTerribleMother permalink
    August 18, 2012 9:11 am

    OOPS!! PRIOR POST MEANT FOR SPEAK! LOL! So used to writing to webelieved.

  146. Speak Your Truth permalink
    August 18, 2012 10:26 am

    Out of thousands of Cds and Video’s I know they feed and give much marital, financial, the “8-F’s etc advice but they keep it so general and vague and would never accept resposibilty for any of their “advice” they would blame everyone else.. but they certainly want the credit and claim they are guru’s, leaders and every other fake top in the world titles they game to get.

    These shysters are very careful what they say on Cd’s with their disclaimers and all. They use a Top Down whisper campaign as their device of protection to spread their devious little strategic plans. It is what they do to get information out that they know they would be held accountable for; like gaming the Wisconsin Attorney General when they were suing Quixtar/Amway. They had sent “the message” from Top down to get as many people as possible to try send in a bunch of statements to the AG of Wis., which was just another scamming ‘tactic’ they had up their sleeve to try and ‘win’ their case of it’s an “illegal pyramid scheme with hopelessly overpriced products”, lawsuit.

    But if the real truth be know, orrin was going to get the squeeze put down on his own pyramid scheme of “tool company” and he would no longer have control to do whatever the hell he wanted with his “profit-sharing” that most were making 3-4 times the income from vs. their Quixtar income and he was/is making multimillions of dollars a month from!. And from commets on here was paying himself 500-700,000 Thousand dollars Per MONTH while he was kicking the RT in the teeth, stealing their income and dropped down their pay to 500-1000 per month?! That should give you a clue how Greedy Mr. orrin guru is!

    He had been scheming and devising a strategic plan of attack for many years, hench the overkill of shell companies! This guy wants everyone to believe he is a “hero” but we all know better! He royaly screwed ten’s thousands of people and many of his top leaders to try and “protect” his own ill gotten gains and that is very evident to all those who got screwed!

    He had a few good ole boys he took care of and they were about to lose everything and come hell or high water, didn’t matter what illegal, immoral, unetthical action they had to take to keep their money…they did! There was many things coming down like the UK Big Quixtar/Amway issue and other lawsuits. Orrin knew all this was going to happen and he and his greedy yes/henchmen top PC were spreading the gospel of “David & Gollith” and they refused and He was not ever going to give up his ill gotten gains for anyone who got in his way!

    And low and behold, hindsight… Amway did just that, or at least it appears they are I totally makes me sick that these guys give the innocent God fearing, Christian, (act) to make themselves appear their action and character are holier than thou and are as pure as snow.

    I can’t wait for the say when all the light blinds their darkness and all their dirty little secrets are exposed for the world to see!

  147. Speak Your Truth permalink
    August 18, 2012 10:29 am

    “can’t wait for the day”

  148. MustHaveBeenTerribleMother permalink
    August 18, 2012 11:06 am

    Speak: I understood most of what you were saying, but not when it came to some of the lawsuits or insider terms. Oh, I got your drift, but not quite sure I understood the in-depth Amway thing. I get confused about Amway–what the heck…I was buying Amway products from my girlfriend’s Mom back in ’69 or ’70. What does Woodward have to do with it, other than he had his own distributorship that came into conflict with Amway honchos regarding methodologies, right? I know there was a lawsuit and Woodward was yelling that Amway was a pyriamid scheme–whoa! ain’t that the pot calling the kettle black! Tell me more.

    BTW: I was out on the web, trying to read what’s left of some of Woodward’s old “pamphleteer” mumbo jumbo on the state of America, the NBA, etc. And checking some of his myriad blog sites.

    I almost pooped that good ol’ Lake Michigan perch again when I read—and I swear he says this—that his mother was so focused if she wanted to get something done, that she would bang her head against a wall to accomplish it—LITERALLY, she would do this, he said!!

    Um, last time I checked, this behavior called for inpatient therapy because of one’s danger to oneself. Instead, the dope says he’ll never forget and has the deepest admiration for it.

    Then, this egomaniac says he learned from his father because his father used Socrates’ methods! Are ya kiddin’ me? A family man with 5 kids had the time to develop the Socratic method?

    Well, allrighty, then! Now we know why WoodyWannaBe has also referenced his ancestors in the same breath as Washington, and sort of intimating to us how lucky his ancestral egg and sperm ended up a few gens later, producing God Woody, who’s about to revolutionize, business, education, family, finances, etc., and…..then restore culture to America!! And finally: to the entire Westernized World!! Ta-Da!!

    I have read so MANY DUMB—JUST PLAIN DUMB– conflicting analogies and claims, etc., from Woodward and his pipeline flunkies, that I can only conclude: he’s trying very very hard here to be a scholar, but he’s plagiarizing from a gamut of sectors, and picking the gems that suit his agenda.

    Or, he’ll go and spout someone else’s ideas from, say, 400 years ago, and then try to extrapolate them BLINDLY, SOMETIMES OUT OF CONTEXT into 21st century incomparable mileaus (am not saying we shouldn’t look to history and not avoid man’s usual penchant to repeat mistakes, etc., but…) he makes it SO CONVOLUTED, WHILE AT THE SAME TIME, HE’S BRINGING PEOPLE WHO ARE ON WELFARE IN TO LINE HIS HUCKSTER POCKETS.

    Holy crap: he inadvertently called EVERYONE, which includes disabled children and adults who get the misnomered “entitlements”……..LAZY!!! AND BEING PAID FOR BY THOSE WITH MONEY. (Well, we all know it’s we middle class Americans carrying the load, and if that is what it takes to keep ourselves as a cohesive, social, civilized unit, then I say: pay your share a**hole, and stop hiding your money in LLCs!!

    He is a CLASSIC parroter of the goofy hellfire and brimstone, ‘let’s put religion and God into politics’, absolutely ludicrrous right winger Repubs like Michelle Bachmann’s rant last year, etc., and a few I could name from my state. Back here, we’ve got the ELDERLY practically throwing rotten tomatoes at people like Ryan.


    I almost can’t take another week of discovering this moron’s pretzel logic—I really can’t. Honestly, I don’t know how ANYONE with jurisprudence degrees or PhDs who are developing his “tools” even WANT their names associated with Woodward and Co.

    It’s just all so obviously a fraud, which again, begs the question as to how my own child–who’s bright but stubborn and hates authority–could fall for this claptrap! (NO need to answer this comment, because I truly do know how it happens at first, but when it reaches the these levels of absolute ABSURDITY….I’m just sayin’…..)

  149. MustHaveBeenTerribleMother permalink
    August 18, 2012 11:57 am


    The Socratic method for the development of critical thinking which supposedly was the usual method of handling issues in the Woodward household housing 5 chldren when the Supreme Leader of MLMs was growing up (the following is courtesy of something as simple as Wikipedia):

    “The Socratic method (also known as method of elenchus, elenctic method, Socratic irony, or Socratic debate), named after the classical Greek philosopher Socrates, is a form of inquiry and debate between individuals with opposing viewpoints based on asking and answering questions to stimulate critical thinking and to illuminate ideas.

    It is a dialectical method, often involving an oppositional discussion in which the defense of one point of view is pitted against the defense of another; one participant may lead another to contradict himself in some way, thus strengthening the inquirer’s own point.

    The Socratic method is a negative method of hypothesis elimination, in that better hypotheses are found by steadily identifying and eliminating those that lead to contradictions. The Socratic method searches for general, commonly held truths that shape opinion, and scrutinizes them to determine their consistency with other beliefs.

    “The basic form is a series of questions formulated as tests of logic and fact intended to help a person or group discover their beliefs about some topic, exploring the definitions or logoi (singular logos), seeking to characterize the general characteristics shared by various particular instances. The extent to which this method is employed to bring out definitions implicit in the interlocutors’ beliefs, or to help them further their understanding, is called the method of maieutics. Aristotle attributed to Socrates the discovery of the method of definition and induction, which he regarded as the essence of the scientific method.”

    OKAY: CAN YOU IMAGINE BEING THIS SOCRATIC IN YOUR DAILY DEALINGS WITH FIVE CHILDREN? Um, maybe that’s what’s wrong here….maybe poor ol’ Woody got confused when his pappy couldn’t get the cojones to say: “No, Woody, your are NOT doing this or that…because I said so!” when need be (not as a steady diet).

    UM, LET ME CLOSE BY ADDING: A FRIEND OF SOCRATES VISITED THE ORACLE AT DELPHI AND THE ORACLE EXCLAIMED THAT SOCRATES WAS THE WISEST MAN IN GREECE (note: in recent years it was discovered that the ground in this are exuded some type of gas through the ground into a closed-chamber area, causing, in all likelihood, hallucinations and expanded consciousness of the Oracle or some such thing).

    Socrates was a man of his time, too—and he likely believed what his psychic hotline told him.

    Okay, I’m now starting to understand what went wrong here: how repeated iterations of TEAM/LIFE came to be and just HOW one can develop into becoming one of the nation’s largest ongoing scam artists who almost appear schizophrenic in nature from paragraph to paragraph.

    In closing, and as good ol’ Wikipedia closed with, too:

    “The term Socratic questioning is used to describe a kind of questioning in which an original question is responded to as though it were an answer. This in turn forces the first questioner to reformulate a new question in light of the progress of the discourse.”


  150. Speak Your Truth permalink
    August 18, 2012 12:50 pm


    You are hilarious! Amway is how orrin has learned everythingand I mean all of it!

    . Orrin began in Amway in 1993, stayed in and made mostly likely 100’s of millions (42 milllion in 2007 alone see forbes article) between getting paid from Amway and mostly from “HIS” own “tool scam” that he broke off from Dexter Yager’s system; which was Dexter was orrin’s “hero”..enough said. among other Amway Diamonds..

    So in 1999 it became officailly Team of Destiny.. orrin’s money making tool company scheme, And most important he now had control over all the profits from that! Which was the goal! No doubt this also increased his appetite for greed, imo..Got kicked out of Amway or resigned depends on who you listen to. Then ended up in a lawsuit with Quixtar, lost that 25 million dollar lawsuit (settled on an undisclosed amount) . But All along he was “planting the seeds” of the promised land and dragging everyone with his lies.. telling everyone we were going to the “Wal-Mart” of the Internet (it’s how he convinced everyone to leave at the drop of his whisper campaign orders).

    He obiously didn’t have the “Walmart of the Internet” to go to so he looked for the quickest way to keep the money flowing to him. He supposedly did a “bench marking study” haha ,but really got paid a 3 million dollar perosnal handout, I mean contigent “loan” from Monavie (which he didn’t have to pay back if he met recruiting goals). And that is how everyone (short version) ended up in Monavie. It is so hard to explain all this garbage without going off on tangents. But as you know he has really dumped MV and has everyone only focused on spending all their hard earned dollars for his LIE.(f) business.

    He always, starting clear back in Amway.. been singing the song of he is doing all this to change the world, and for all the people in team, but then his greedy action spoke so loud no one could hear a lying word he said! Here’s a side note on “his” profit -sharing and am sure you will be floored; but he NEVER told anyone how they got paid! Yep, believe it or not, No one knew how they even got paid..we were just supposed to “Trust” the guru god, that would never do anything to screw anyone over!!! Can you say, Stupid!!

    So that might be a question for your son, he will never get the answer! He had his secret little formula that only he knows about, unless Rob halstrand knows; maybe a PC but never anyone else!

    So all the things you are seeing are nothing more than the end product of that very Amway system! It is why orrin believes the way he does, he has too; How else can he pillage multi-millions off the masses knowing they really don’t have a chance.. that 99%+ will lose! There is only 7 that’s right 7 in over 2 decades that ever went Diamond or Pc and really 6 (Claude was never in orrin’s team)… out of tens if not 100’s of thousands churned through the Team!They will stand on stages everywhere and claim that they have a “proven system” and if you follow it you will make it!

    Orrin likes to rewrite, and hide the history about his involvement in Amway (he now calls it is “former supplier”) and after the lawsuit I don’t think he can say much/ disparge them but believe me, he didn’t plenty of that (anonymous blogging campaign and he as Qrush blogger) during that lawsuit to make up for all he could do now.

    Sorry, it is hard to keep everything in a timeline, so much garbage has happened. My point is he stole everything from Amway and wouldn’t be where he is today, if he hadn’t learned the tricks and started with Amway!

  151. MustHaveBeenTerribleMother permalink
    August 18, 2012 1:20 pm

    Okay: read it twice…what was Dexter Yager’s system? Was he part of Amway’s sort of “team devleopment” or something?

    And: so you’re telling me, that as a representative DISTRIBUTOR for AMWAY, Orrin just went his own merry way with part of the business and did it HIS way, against established Amway policy?

    (Whoa–my husband works for one of the larger companies on the planet which likes to consider their distributors as part of the “corporate family” and those distributors tow the uniformity line with them due to the enormity of the product, etc. (but the Co. does NOT consider you as part of THEIR personal family, like LIFE does)—

    hey, that reminds me….when it’s time for a few “sunshine up the butt” motivational meetings, my husband is going to formally request they NOT use Orrin Woodward, and he’s going to explain what happened in our family in our son spewing the indoctrination–and stick to the facts.

    (See? Again, we all have hidden assets to fight back with that we may not have thought of before.)

  152. MustHaveBeenTerribleMother permalink
    August 18, 2012 1:21 pm

    Hey: where do I find the article “Teamspeak Demands”?

  153. Speak Your Truth permalink
    August 18, 2012 3:29 pm

    Dexter Yager system or what they call “the system” IS: the books, Cd’s,mentorship and all meetings and all the other ways they make a killing off the masses claiming it is “training” for the “product companies” and in this case Amway. But Monavie and most MLM has the same money making scheme. It is seperate from the “product” Company.

    So, they operate and if you are “paid” from the “system” it is seperate from any monies you would get from your product side or sales (haha) more internal comsuption “bonuses” at least from our experience.

    And for 4 or 5 decades the “system” is the real money maker and no one has policed it. They have gotten away with all that is on this blog and more! For the most part from our experience (until the end of the Team with Quixtar/Amway) Amway has turned a blind eye and the “system” companies (numerous ones that were just Diamonds who broke off to get their own “profit” and control their own); like the Team have carried on making 100’s of millions for the “owners” at the TOP. They are ran as an authoritarian and dictating manner without no recourse or regulations to even speak of.

    That is why there is so many books, testimonies, lawsuits, and websites. These abuses have gone on for Decades!

    Teamspeak, doesn’t show up in the search, try Archives or maybe Amthrax has an easier way to find that post?

  154. MustHaveBeenTerribleMother permalink
    August 18, 2012 3:33 pm


    Note: I got this from a poster who I can only name as “Trent”…I agree with it, the way he wrote it after he was appalled by the intiial contents. Here are some of the highlight ones of the 48 laws—and this is going to be long!

    Trent said……” I was rather appalled.

    The 48 Laws of Power is a collection of “laws” based on historical and philosophical anecdotes. These laws are amoral, meaning that they themselves don’t take into account any sense of right or wrong. Instead, the laws focus on how one can increase their influence over any situation, regardless of the moral consequences of doing so. In other words, this book focuses on how to gain power in any situation, regardless of whether it’s morally right or wrong, and it uses specific anecdotes from history to illustrate these “rules of power.”

    My initial reaction to the book was just to write it off – after all, I’ve found time and time again that following my moral compass has served me far better in life than following any set of amoral rules. Stepping on someone else’s throat to raise myself six inches higher holds no appeal to me at all – and the sight of someone else doing that raises disgust in me. I tend to believe that this is how the majority of the professional world works; people are fundamentally honest and realize that lifting others often lifts themselves.

    Then I began to see the book pop up in several surprising places, from the bookshelves of various people I knew to a surprising feature-length article in The New Yorker detailing the book and its author, Robert Greene. At first, this annoyed me – why would anyone pay special attention to this nonsense? Were there really that many amoral people out there, operating cloak-and-dagger style?

    I had to figure this whole thing out, so I picked up a copy of The 48 Laws of Power and gave it a read-through….let’s first take a look at some of these 48 rules.

    Wandering Through The 48 Laws of Power

    Rather than going through all 48 laws and boring you to sleep, I selected ten of them worth commenting on. The other 38 rules are similar in nature; if you want to read them all, just pick up a paperback copy of the book and look at the back cover, as they’re all listed there.

    2. Never put too much trust in friends, learn how to use enemies
    Here, Greene advises that people should not trust their friends in any significant way, using the story of Michael III‘s assassination by his former friend Basil I as an example. In general, you should never mix friendship and work – good advice. Instead, he advises that you place enemies in positions of power around you, as they have a lot to prove and can also provide great insight – I immediately thought of Abraham Lincoln’s inclusion of his political enemies in the Cabinet during the Civil War, a tactic outlined in the fascinating Team of Rivals.

    My thoughts? I agree that it’s generally a good idea to not mix friendship and work – I have avoided making deep friendships with my coworkers. As for enemies, I tend to feel that working out conflicts with other people and actually working with them on projects can be beneficial to everyone involved – you can often come up with some great solutions and really set a good example of teamwork if you make an effort to work with your enemy. I essentially agree with this rule.

    4. Always say less than necessary
    Greene uses a myth about Coriolanus speaking too much (and thus ruining his reputation) and then holds up Louis XIV as a paragon of the virtue of speaking in brief. Both, actually, are completely mythological – very little is actually known about Coriolanus and the quote he uses from Louis XIV – L’État, c’est moi – was actually conceived by his opponents to make him seem egotistical.

    This rule is a little strong for my taste – I generally believe in saying just what’s necessary because saying more than that is usually a detriment. Every time I’ve underplayed my knowledge, it’s actually ended up being a detriment to me as I’ve later been accused of hiding information. I think a philosophy of giving the relevant information but keeping it brief is the best route to follow.

    7. Get others to do the work for you, but always take the credit
    This is a pretty blunt one. Greene backs it up by retelling the classic tale of Nikola Tesla and Thomas Edison – Tesla may have been the better scientist, but Edison knew how to find others, employ them in his labs, and then take broader credit for the inventions.

    At first glance, this is a deeply underhanded method of gaining power – it seems to warrant cheating, paying others to complete your papers, and so forth. Think of it this way, though – how often has your manager presented work you’ve done to demonstrate the work of the group – in other words, to make your manager look good? It’s generally accepted that a person receives more respect if he acknowledges the hard work of individual team members – I’ve seen this from the perspective of the team member, the person doing the reporting, and the person being reported to.

    11. Learn to keep people dependent on you
    Many people feel that the way to safety is to be a sycophant to a powerful boss. This isn’t true; as soon as you make a mis-step, they can easily get rid of you and replace you with another. Instead, Greene urges you to ally yourself with a weak boss and then focus on making yourself indispensable – create a situation where without you, their power would collapse. At that point, who has the power?

    Greene uses the story of Otto von Bismarck and his relationship with the various Kaisers of Germany to illustrate the point. Bismarck was able to work tightly with some of the late Kaisers and push them into unifying Germany, making himself the first Chancellor in the process. A strong Kaiser could have tossed Bismarck aside for these moves, but the weak ones were so reliant on Bismarck that they let him lead.

    12. Use selective honesty and generosity to disarm your victim
    I believe the appropriate term for this is “sucking up,” though it takes the interesting twist of viewing the person you’re sucking up to as the victim. One could also view this as building a fake relationship with someone in order to exploit them. Either way, it’s a behavior that doesn’t win you much respect from others.

    Greene uses several anecdotes in this chapter, most interestingly one actually involving a rather clever con man. Of course, that just illustrates the dishonesty of this approach – you’re basically being a confidence man when you cultivate relationships like this just to manipulate people.

    14. Pose as a friend, work as a spy
    This rule encourages the reader to use social situations to spy on the “enemy.” In other words, you should act friendly towards people you view as adversaries at social gatherings, hopefully disarming them, and then use this vague trust to probe them for information. I immediately thought of a person I know who will make small talk for a minute, then immediately start asking me questions about my computer consulting business.

    To illustrate the point, Greene tells about the techniques Joseph Duveen, arguably the most successful art dealer of all time, and the techniques he used for finding clients. Basically, he used social situations to find out tons of details about prospective clients, then utilized these details to wow them.

    16. Use absence to increase respect and honor
    The discussion of this law involves the tale of Deioces, a highly respected judge who withdrew from public life; when the public realized how valuable he was as a judge to their society, they made him king.

    Greene proposes that this same philosophy is often true. If you provide a valuable service for people, making yourself absent for a period will make them really appreciate the service that you provide. While this is true, it is extremely easy for this to backfire on you – people can discover that you’re not as valuable as you might hope, for instance. One way to do this effectively is to utilize your vacation time and go on a “no-contact” vacation.

    20. Do not commit to anyone
    The idea here is that by not strictly committing to anything, when you do produce it creates the impression of coming off as a grand favor. Greene uses Elizabeth I as one example here – she never married or bore children, but used hints of potential courtship to get exactly what she wanted.

    While this can be a great tactic to use if you have value that others want – think of a skilled plumber in a city, for example – if you don’t, not committing and trying to play people off of each other will merely earn you enemies.

    34. Be royal in your own fashion: Act like a king to be treated by one
    This is one of the best pieces of advice in the entire book and one that I wholeheartedly agree with. There are few things you can do to improve yourself in the eyes of others than to appear mature and respectable and to value your personal appearance. If you act vulgar and crude, people will simply treat you with less respect.

    Greene uses the example of Louis-Philippe to show the value of carrying yourself well, arguing that a big piece of his downfall was his attempts at appearing as a common man and not as a leader. An interesting take, though it was his increasingly ultraconservative governance that eventually brought him down.

    41. Avoid stepping into a great man’s shoes
    Generally, it is extremely difficult to follow a person who has done a tremendous job. People have come to expect excellence from the position, and as a replacement, you’re not only expected to uphold that excellence but also learn all of the trappings of the job very quickly. Greene basically says that one should not do this – the risks are too high. Instead, if you must fill that role, make it your own.

    To illustrate, he uses the examples of Alexander the Great and Napoleon III. Alexander took what his father, Phillip of Macedonia, had built and used it as the foundation for much greater things. Napoleon III, on the other hand, stepped into his role as leader of France and took the nation in many unexpected directions, quickly stepping away from the shadow of his namesake.


    Now, if this doesn’t sound like what’s going on in LIFE, I’ll eat my granny shorts.

  155. MustHaveBeenTerribleMother permalink
    August 18, 2012 3:44 pm

    @Speak: okay, thanks, I got the Dean Y. info…so he’s really the one that sparked Woodward into the realm of the so-called “almost worthless product to sell mostly internally” that generates riches for the top dogs.

  156. Speak Your Truth permalink
    August 18, 2012 3:45 pm

    Lmao! Orrin has read that book and promoted it to at least 1 that I know of for sure. And by some it is known to be his handbook.

    Granny haha…you are no doubt on a mission…one which I hope gets accomplished! 🙂

  157. MustHaveBeenTerribleMother permalink
    August 18, 2012 5:51 pm

    Hey, Speak and webelieved, etal: check this out…about what Orrin Woodward HIMSELF has stated on his Tripod blog as goals for 2011—my answer to that will be below his.

    “3. Set rewards and correspondingly deny yourself. One of the most effective methods for gaining leverage over ourselves is to set up a reward system that encourages correct and discourages incorrect behavior. (Also, it should go without saying that such a reward/denial system should align with the goals set.) For instance, let’s say your goal is to lose that last 15 pounds. An action plan might involve joining a health club, working out three to four times a week, and managing your caloric intake. So far so good. The reward system might look like this: DENY yourself any baked goods whatsoever until Sunday, at which time, if and only if you were successful throughout the week, you REWARD yourself with a treat.

    Now, I am not a weight management specialist. Perhaps this is a stupid idea physiologically. I don’t know (and I don’t care).

    The point is that self-denial can be used to encourage correct actions, which are then rewarded in small but non-destructive ways.”

    ANSWER: you had better damn well CARE what you say about nutrition when you are giving recommendations, Mr. Guru, because you MAY be dealing with diabetics or other metabolically-challenged people that you’ve sucked into your money-robbing schemes. ..

    What an arrogant ass, giving out his DENY YOURSELF spiel! And he SAYS HE DOES NOT CARE IF IT’S BAD ADVICE. He’s giving weight loss medical management advice to lose weight!

  158. MustHaveBeenTerribleMother permalink
    August 18, 2012 5:54 pm


  159. MustHaveBeenTerribleMother permalink
    August 18, 2012 6:12 pm


    “Everyone starts life with a fire in their soul; sadly most are snuffed out in the storms of LIFE.”
    ― Orrin Woodward

  160. Speak Your Truth permalink
    August 18, 2012 6:26 pm

    You are digging up some good stuff. Pretty sad he is giving nutritional advice and then says he “don’t care?” Looks like mr. orrin woodward, guru ought to check back his highlighted notes and re-read “Attitude is Everything” book! Pretty stinky attitude there..haha!

    Now I am sure of it, Granny… that you are figuring orrin and his minions and the LIEf thing out!…LOL

  161. MustHaveBeenTerribleMother permalink
    August 19, 2012 4:21 am

    To Those of You who have been hurt so deeply: Just after stomping around this site with me for a week, can’t you see why this man and his business will lkely never really amount to the respect and zooming to the top that he wanted for himself?

    Money is one thing; respect is another. I don’t care if Woodward makes a million dollars a DAY…there’s enough references to him out here in cyberspace that may well make others think twice about his scams. There’s a wonderful website out there from someone telling their story very professionally and coherently—if I found it; others will, too. Dop you guys know who that person is? Oh, and who’s the Nick guy with his site, doing reviews on TEAM/LIFE, etc.?

    I hope you guys realize, that there’s really nothing I can do on my end….I’m not even the direct recipient of their fallout. My son and I no longer speak, of course.

    It’s like a rotting ache of the gut and soul to not be able to have recourse to stop this, especially since right now, my son is like a runaway train with it.

    Can you guys get some of your other friends who got burned to come on here and talk about what happened to themselves, too? I’d like to hear more


  162. No Team For Me permalink
    August 19, 2012 7:49 am

    Webelieved – Whenever you do decide to sue Orrin, make sure it goes public. I have much information which could be valuable in a lawsuit and would love for the truth to come out!

  163. MustHaveBeenTerribleMother permalink
    August 19, 2012 12:04 pm

    Hey, you guys: maybe some day, an attorney will do it pro bono because of the publicity—I mean, we’ve had Oprah Winfrey and Dr. Oz sue; there’s stories out here on the ‘net; we’ve had the juice scam, etc. It’d be like F. Lee Bailey etal taking the OJ case, i.e., high profile.

  164. MustHaveBeenTerribleMother permalink
    August 19, 2012 12:43 pm

    Bwahahahhaha!! Every single day for the past 8 days, I can find things that are LUDICROUS–that’s actually been posted by some TEAM/LIFE poor suckers. This one, again, is by “Jr” guru, auto mechanic Dan Hawkins….whom, I suspect, simply put up what Orrin Woodward told him to.

    But, when you read this, remember: after a big meeting some months ago, they claimed they had 9,000 members at that point (probably closer to what, early winter of 2012?).

    Okay: here Dan says that after the Quixtar split, Moses Woodard took 40,000 people with him to the promised land!

    Um, did he leave them there or something? Where ARE this 31,000 defectors, which must have fled in-between Quixtar and their current, Sug. 2012 claims (that they now have 60,000 new in the LIFE scheme?


    Here’s a clip, right from toady, Dan:

    “The critics claim Orrin Woodward is a misleader, however, how do you explain that when Orrin left Quixtar over 40,000 people gave up their checks from Quixtar and followed Orrin and the Team into the unknown? Maybe the 40,000 recognized the same problems and chose to follow a leader with the character and courage to fix them. I believe that is what you will find after reading this post.”

    Grandma’s answer to poor, rich, deluded mechanic-baby-boy-Hawkins: “shame on you, you deceptive money-hungry, moral-less father of living children…you KNOW what happened after Quixtar! The whole world laughed and then got pissed off, like Oprah Winfrey, etal., at the latest scam, touting bizarrely over-priced acai berry juice as the next big Snake Oil elixir, and it looks like 31,000 people got shafted and/or delusioned in the wilderness of the pseudo-pyramidal schemes, once again perpetrated by Orrin Wood-Wanna-Be God Woodward!.”

  165. MustHaveBeenTerribleMother permalink
    August 19, 2012 3:01 pm

    clarification of numbers by my post above:

    I recently read, from a LIFE meeting report dated last winter or spring or so, that they had 9,000 members in the new TEAM/LIFE. Okay, if Woodward took 40,000 with him from Quixtar….and then the Mon Avie juice scandal happened after Quixtar…..somewhere along the line….31,000 people left got quietly disposed of….

    because all Danny m’ boy Hawkins says on his website is this: Orrin must be right, because look at all who followed him (gee, I wonder if Orrin the Wonderbar good Christian Woodward showed Dan Hawkins the mechanic how to be so slick in how he presents half-truths?

    Boy oh boy….that’s some kind of successful leadership program! LOL!!

    Now in August of 2012: LIFE is claiming they have 60,000 members. Are they including one-time buyers of their monitarily worthless products on the website? Could it be possible that this many Americans are deluded just this summer alone, taking that company from 9k to 60k in membership? After all of the prior debacles Orrin Woodward has produced?

  166. Speak Your Truth permalink
    August 19, 2012 4:44 pm


    You got it! People did NOT follow because they believed they were going to the “unknown” oh no, they their brains had been acid washed with the “Wal-Mart of the Internet for Years!” I hope Danny stays inside during a lightening storm!..That is the biggest pile of self-deceived propaganda and pile DUNG …. Show us where those 40,000 (Are still following orrin!,)..Did you forget the rest of the story, Dan? No doubt it got Hawker some brownie on the tip of his nose. We already know the strategy….that article was ordered/manipulated to be written up to once again mislead the unsuspecting and gullible.

    Is that really how it happened..Danny boy? Who by the way got a few pretty good “special deals” for his willingness to be a yes boy. These guys think the leaders don’t know this article is a strategic propaganda move? orrin is a snake..he used and abused, manipulated, lied, deceived (convinced the real leaders who had influence and got them to believe he could be nothing but trusted. So for Dan really orrin is saying 40,000 peopled followed orrin into the unknown it flat out misleading and doesn’t make orrin any such great leader, do the follow up to that Line of BS.

    We all know orrin and his minions don’t have a problem lying this did NOT happen overnight either, it took 14 years of this snake abusing and using, lying, promising and faking friendships (by stroking egos) to convince those closest to him he could be “trusted” and then THOSE leaders (used their influence, not orrin’s supposed influence, in their teams).

    Take the DEMANED “edification of orrin” and his manipulation of those supposed friends…completely out of the “system”..from way back * sure sign of cult. I guarantee you, orrin would NOT be consider “the leader”..Take that one MLM law out …he would never had the influence of 40,000 people!…Who the hell is he trying to kid?.. Oh that’s right, himself!

    The idol worshipping… “edification” in the “system” is exactly how they get others to follow and is a sure way to secure the “upline” Pc’s can come in and steal your team…They proved that and Teach it~ “Build Firewalls”….”never get out of your taproot”…Always “edify” your upline” (even if you know they are stabbing you in the back! Take it OUT completely and let’s see how many follow any of the crooks! The arrogance and larger than life ego’s of these guys are astounding! I have never seen such sick, and inflated ego’s, in my life.

    Keep digging Granny, you will only find more pathetic idol worshipping and misleading messages come out of the followers, mouths (websites,cds and through all their media).

    Orrin would “scold” leaders who would “edify” theirs and other Pc on stage because HE wasn’t getting ALL the attention and edification! That is how sick, narcissistic and jealous he really is. His conscience should crush him…but no it makes him feel more ‘powerful’ in his small little world.

  167. Speak Your Truth permalink
    August 19, 2012 5:06 pm

    Where’s the “LIST” of those who Quit “following” because of orrin’s manipulated for his own personal gain and a few of the good ole boys… ‘leadership?

    If leadership is abusing relationships,manipulating, lying, stealing, cheating, underhanded solicitation, deception, playing with others money, then orrinh is the best leader,right next to every other con on the planet. If “influence” is leadership…..then we have to see if it passes the acid test of those 40,000 and all those Big Builders How many are those “following” his supposed leadership, after they figured out the “real” orrin…I doubt most of them would ever even speak to the crook,,,ever again; let alone “follow’ him! But Danny boy made it sound nice and misleading!

    He must be confusing “manipulation” with true “influence” because that was the only way he thought he had influence.

  168. Speak Your Truth permalink
    August 19, 2012 5:41 pm

    I would love to see Dan, orrin or anyone else post the numbers from orrin’s amazing ‘leadership’ in all their groups who followed to the “unknown” that they ‘believed’ were going to what was the name of the company, orrin? We know the name wasn’t going to be Monavie, right orrin? Show all the system counts, across the board who I know for some were dropping out by the hundreds in weekly system every week….due to orrin’s great leadership?

    How about why did everyone quit “following” when they found out who orrin and what his real leadership game was…why would his own Pastor and mentor not Follow him, Pastor Dickie, or how about the CEO Bobbie Dickie, what about Chief Legal Counsel Kevin Thompson,Ben Dickie, Bob Cassidy, and many more from the office, RESIGN?

    How about these others who made up most of the numbers; Billy Florence, Randy Haugen, Chuck Getchel, Smiths, Crawfords, Abrahams, Ratz’s, Morgan’s. Zentner’s, Freese, Chris Smith, Peters, Wolblinski (sp?), Rodman’s, Rau, Zimmerman, and many, many more.. thousands upon thousands, upon their teams that ALL quit following orrin’s supposed ‘leadership?’ Sorry for all misspellings, and this was just a few, I couldn’t remember where the list on here was! The point is that if orrin was such a great leader then WHY DID all these real leaders Leave and there is probably not any that would ever even speak to him again, let alone say he was a “leader” or “follow” him anywhere (unless they got behind him on the way to a court hearing 🙂

    Wonder if orrin or Dan would be willing to share the rest of this story?

  169. No Team For Me permalink
    August 19, 2012 6:23 pm

    I agree. We didn’t follow a leader. We were scammed and lied to my a narcissist. Led to believe we were going to the WalMart of the Internet. We didn’t realize he sold us out for $3 million to MonaVie and restructured all the groups to make sure he would go Presidential Black Diamond and take advantage of the true leaders like Randy Haugen, Billy Florence, Mark Crawford, etc.

    The fact that he went from 40,000 down to under 10,000 in less than 4 years shows he is not a leader at all. Probably one of the worst leaders in history. He’s a Dexter Yager want-to-be. But Dexter had 72,000 in one dome at the same time and over 1,000,000 people following his system when you add in Britt, Foley, Stewart, Haugen, etc.

    Orrin raided his way to 40,000 and then led his way to under 10,000. What a shmuck.

    All of the above are based on my personal opinion.

  170. Former Round Table permalink
    August 20, 2012 4:46 am

    No Team for Me — “Orrin raided his way to 40,000 and then led his way to under 10,000.” Perfect example of his superior leadership skills. Ha!

    All I know is this; after waking up from my cult-induced stupor and severing any and all ties to this creepy bunch of sociopathic liars, I had to go out and “restart” my career and get a real job. The FIRST thing I did was scour my social media and google histories from all references to my involvement with Team, Woodward, and followers. Some might consider that to be dishonest, but in the REAL world, any affiliation with Woodward and his minions is the kiss of death.

    Just something the currently blind will have to look forward to in the future.

  171. Speak Your Truth permalink
    August 20, 2012 6:39 am

    Former Round Table~

    I don’t blame you a bit, I don’t think it would be wise for anyone to reference orrin woodward, Amway,Team, LIEf, or anything associated with them.

  172. MustHaveBeenTerribleMother permalink
    August 20, 2012 7:45 am

    A bit of good news amidst the angst here: I got a phone call from a friend that my son was doing something to earn money that day that he used to do/was trained to do. Well, I guess he hasn’t seen any manna from pipeline heaven come his way yet. Doesn’t mean he’s not involved, but just that at least, that day, he was doing something to earn money via usual labor channels….hope it’s not going to end up in Dan Hawkin’ quarter of a million per month coffers eventually.

  173. Speak Your Truth permalink
    August 20, 2012 8:28 am

    Don’t give up hope, eventually people cannot sustain the massive losses and the majority quit. Although from my experience those who they prey on that are the “neediest” and seem to have no other means to friends, their need to be a part of something over rides any common sense in their spending..they got in for the “social club” aspect and seem to stay forever just throwing their money up! It is very sad, nobody needs to pay thousands a dollars a year to “buy friends”.

    These guys know this. They are just like gangs. They entice people with the “money” lifestyle but know they need somewhere to “belong!”

    Another fitting anology would be the reference to a “pimp.” I can’t remember who made this comment about being pimped, and I wanted to comment back to them. The PC or MLM world for that matter and the parallel to a pimp, is very fitting. The PC control everything! (pimp controls everything about the prostitue too!)

  174. MustHaveBeenTerribleMother permalink
    August 20, 2012 12:48 pm

    HEY YOU GUYS: what was a typical week like for you being entangled in this “business” before you gave up your own….can you describe very concrete moments, say after an event, where you thought it odd or unsettling, i.e., that something just wasnt quite right about the extent of how you were in this? Example: what happened with YOUR upline if you said: I don’t have the money right now for this or that?

  175. MustHaveBeenTerribleMother permalink
    August 20, 2012 12:53 pm

    ABC NEWS ARCHIVED ARTICLE re: Oprah Winfrey sues Mon Avie::

    “It’s in Oprah and Dr Oz’s benefit to go after these companies because they are trading on their good names,” said Alison Southwick, spokesman for the Better Business Bureau (BBB). “It will also hopefully serve as a deterrent and warning to companies that you can’t get away with falsely claiming a celebrity endorsement.”

    Harpo Productions filed 50 lawsuits against companies, including the action against MonaVie, which was filed Aug. 9, 2009, in United States District Court.

    MonaVie was accused in the lawsuit of using unapproved distributor websites and social networking sites — all of which are now shut down or no longer operating.”

    Um, I thought there were still cases of the juice to dispose of?

  176. August 20, 2012 1:00 pm

    The TEAM Speak post you’re referring to is located here:

    Guest Post: LIFE TEAM Speak and Their Demands

  177. MustHaveBeenTerribleMother permalink
    August 20, 2012 1:01 pm


    News came out that the MonaVie top earners Orrin and Laurie Woodward together with Chris and Terri Brandy, as well as, Tim and Amy Makes were ordered to pay 25 million U.S. dollars by an arbitral court. They were alleged to have contacted Amway’s distribution partners and to have suggested to them to leave Quixtar and join MonaVie. The Woodwards were supposed to pay U.S. $12,736,659, the Brandys U.S. $9,578,756 Dollar and the Makes’ U.S. $3,533,230. The decision was made in a so-called “final arbitration“.

    The back story: In August 2007, the company Amway took legal action against 31 former Quixtar representatives at an arbitral court, where Linda Singer is the chief arbitrator. Hereon, the defendant responded with counter law suits. In the following 18 months there were several requests for interim injunctions followed by a final arbitrament on both sides. In March 2008, Linda Singer held a three-day hearing to extend a court order against two of the defendants, Orrin and Laurie Woodward. In May 2008, a sixteen-day hearing followed that was supposed to drill down on the reason for the dispute. In refusing to contribute to the trial, the defendants thereby apparently unnecessarily delayed the proceeding.

    In detail, Amway accused the defendants to be in breach of the contract with Quixtar, including the usage of Quixtars trade secrets in order to promote a competing business and its products. Among other things, they were sued for defamation and damaging the business of Quixtar’s distribution partners and to have persuaded them to leave Quixtar in order to join their own business. Furthermore, they allegedly disclosed company secrets and wrongfully got involved in active contracts and intentionally interfered with Amway’s business relationships.

    The opposing party based their counter law suit on “illegal distribution contracts” and the alleged litigation abuse by Amway. In the months following, the arbitral court had made various statements that led to the discharge of several of the defendants. Two of the defendants declared bankruptcy over the course of the lawsuit.

    Now, arbitrator Linda Singer ruled against Orrin and Laurie Woodward and determined that they are obligated toward Quixtar to make a payment of almost 13 million U.S. dollars due to the enticement of Quixtar distribution partners for their own business (MonaVie). Chris and Terri Brady were ordered to make a payment of over 9.5 million U.S. dollars to Quixtar, and Timothy and Amy Marks were ordered to pay more than 3.5 million U.S. dollars. In addition, they have to come up with several thousand dollars to cover the costs of the lawsuit, and Tim Marks has to reimburse Quixtar several ten thousands of dollars for cost incurred in relation to the “disclosure of its Alias emails”. A tough judgment worth millions.

    Orrin Woodward already issued a first statement: “This sentence is everything but ‘final’. And after a recent sentence by a federal judge in Utah, that former distribution partners of Amway cannot be prosecuted after the fact, the opera isn’t over until the fat lady sings. Hereby it becomes apparent now, that some important evidence has not even been considered for our defense. If the current legal system, after the consideration of all facts, comes to the conclusion, that we would have to pay, we will equip ourselves with the required funds and continue our fight for justice. I will never bow down to a willful sovereignty, and if Amway knew only one person who I had advised to leave Amway, then they should call a spade a spade. I never have and never would advise anyone to do something like that, because I believe that someone who is being convinced to do something against his own will still continues to keep his original opinion. However, if someone calls me up and asks if I would be willing to join their business, than that is capitalism, and that is what network marketing is for me…“

    Be that as it may, it shows the actual dilemma of the “shooting-star like rise” of the so far renowned business MonaVie. For months, the gossip factory has been working overtime with rumors that more and more executives had been bought who then would try to achieve short-lived hypes so that the never-ending success story can continue to be written. On the quiet or in pertinent U.S. online chat rooms there are rumors about the move of Robert Dean Jr. The talk is of a four million dollar deal. However, the former TNI consultants recruited by Dean Jr. allegedly have already left MonaVie dissatisfied and are returning to TNI. If you give the reasons you can find on the web credit, this is owed to MonaVie’s product quality and a dissatisfying income situation for many people.

    So, OBTAINER will keep you posted since there doesn’t seem to be end to this story anytime soon. We rather seem to be only at the beginning of a chain of events connected to MonaVie.

    Komentare: (1)

    Jeffrey Benedict has written the following: Names are not correct
    The names are Chris and Terri Brady not Brandy

    erstellt am: 27.01.2010 – 12:01:13

  178. MustHaveBeenTerribleMother permalink
    August 20, 2012 1:11 pm


    [editor’s note: added blockquote around quoted material]

    As an active member of Team, a company founded by Orrin Woodward, for six months, I can give firsthand knowledge of the harm it deals to those involved. This is my personal story, stripped of any emotion and consisting of simply the facts.
    In December, 2006, a fellow classmate of mine at Kettering University, who, for privacy reasons, I’ll refer to as Dave, presented this business plan to me created by a Kettering Alumni, Orrin Woodward. Excited by the luxurious dream lifestyle he promised I could have with only a small risk ($264, he said), I signed up, and a day later, I was an Independent Business Owner under Orrin Woodward and all the others. The next day, he introduced me to all of his friends involved in Team. They all embraced me as one of their own; they made me feel welcome and a part of a team, like Orrin Woodward recommends in his books and CDs. When I told my mom, she immediately labeled it as a pyramid scheme. However, my newfound friends discouraged me from listening to her because “she didn’t understand the business.” Instead, they suggested I listen to a CD.

    When Dave approached me a week later, he recommended I get involved in the system, which included three CDs a week and a book a month that Orrin Woodward felt would teach me the skills I needed to build the business. I did not like the idea of investing any more money until I received some return. So instead, he handed me a ticket to the seminar that month to see Orrin Woodward speak, but he waited until the next week before informing me I owed him $25 for the ticket.

    The seminar blew me away. I never felt such a rush of excitement in my life since the first time the ice cream truck trundled down my street. Blinded with the exciting lifestyle Orrin Woodward described, I asked Dave what I needed to do next. “Get on system,” was his reply. The tools were expensive, so I asked him where the profits went, and he said they all went into their production-Orrin Woodward and the others at the top made nothing off them. When I raised my concern of the expense, he advised me to look at it as an investment in my future, just like college, only far less expensive. I could not argue with his logic, so the next week, I signed up for my weekly motivational CDs and books recommended by Orrin Woodward, as well as seminar tickets.

    As weeks progressed, I became more and more active as Dave complimented my efforts and all my mentors told me I would soon be making enough to retire, just like Orrin Woodward did. Fueled by enthusiasm, I went to all my friends, families, co-workers, random people I had just met, everyone, and told them about Orrin Woodward and his business idea. Most people snickered at me, which made me feel guilty for presenting the idea to them, but Dave and the others kept encouraging me and told me all I needed to do was buy more CDs by Orrin Woodward to improve myself. So, like a lemming, I did as they recommended.

    At one seminar held in St. Louis, Dave strongly recommended I purchase a top 50 CD pack, a $318 investment that, according to Orrin Woodward, contained the best of the best CDs. I did not see a point to it-I already had enough motivation by Orrin Woodward. However, Dave and the others refused to let me sit with them unless I purchased the CD pack. I actually felt bad for questioning Dave and the others; I was overcome with feelings of alienation and stupidity for doubting their judgment. Determined not to screw up the business opportunity Dave offered me, I forked up the $318 and bought my motivational CDs by Orrin Woodward and the other leaders. That secured my seat next to Dave and all the other big kids on the bus.

    After that, whenever I raised concerns such as market saturation, the high cost of tools, and the huge expenses the business was running me, Dave and the others told me my focus was on the wrong place-it needed to be on my dreams like Orrin Woodward said. I began to feel sorry for those I had recruited for this business. I was swimming through a debt of thousands of dollars and still promising people a dream lifestyle for a risk of only $264. Blatantly lying to people like that tore me inside, but Dave kept reminding me I was doing a good thing, just like Orrin Woodward, and I was the only one questioning Team’s practices.

    My debt piling higher and higher and the business increasing the strain on my relationship with my family and friends, I started delving more into Team’s infrastructure to get my concerns for Orrin Woodward’s company properly addressed. When I learned that the great majority of the money was made on the flow of tools rather than the Quixtar business as Orrin Woodward claimed, I grew suspicious since Dave had told me previously no profits were made on tools. When I asked Dave to see how the money was made, he told me it was confidential and I needed have faith in Orrin Woodward, believing it would all work out in the end. During the final phone conversation I had with him about the subject, I told him I could not ask my friends and family to invest thousands of dollars and hours into a business where Orrin Woodward and the other leaders lied to me and withheld information regarding how I was going to get paid. His defense was that everyone needs to have faith. “It’s just like going to a restaurant,” he said. “You must have faith that the chef won’t poison your food.” A day later, I quit Team.

    In the aftermath, I lost more than $6,000 in Team, all of it going to the tools produced by Orrin Woodward and the other leaders. However, I consider my financial loss minimal compared to my other losses. My neighbors, friends, and co-workers whom I got involved still keep me at a distance. Several relationship ties were severed, many more wounded.

    If you have made it this far without closing the article, I am guessing you have some concerns with Team and Orrin Woodward or are doing some research before signing up, ,like you should. I am not saying whether or not Orrin Woodward and the other leaders present a viable business plan or not: I am sure you can make money off it, however difficult it may be. However, for the sake of your friends and everyone else you present Orrin Woodward and his business idea to, before you start building the business, ask whoever signed you up to show you a written contract stating how you will make all this money. Any legitimate business that asks you to invest money will fully disclose any financial information to its investors-no business will ask one to have some faith they will pay out. If those you are working with tell you to simply rely on Orrin Woodward and his integrity without showing you how you will get paid, be weary, because they are hiding the payout plan for a reason: if it was as good as they claimed, they would fully disclose it to all those who joined.


  179. AlmostIn permalink
    August 20, 2012 1:13 pm

    I have been following everything on this site since I started my search for information about Life when after I attended a Major I kept having this awful feeling about this business. It felt cult like to me and my ex-boyfriend has been lured into it.

    I wanted nothing to do with Life because it seemed to me that I would be selling this hogwash cd/book system/business opportunity to friends and family and get them to spend money on this stuff so that I could make money. I did not like all the well-to-do couples that came on stage and preach about how we can all have the fancy cars and homes and vacations and especially the abundance of time with family. It just seemed so fake to me.

    I think that I wasn’t taken in by all this hoopla about getting rich because I don’t need or want to only be seen for all the material wealth I have.

    I am not saying that this is what other people have joined Team/Life to do also. I think the personality fit/aspect of this is the lure–they find out just what you are needing and wanting in your life and get you in. I was not taken by this and I am thankful everyday because I have no desire to be part of any group for a required amount of my time–work not included.

    I understand that anyone that has been involved in this scam and anyone who has a friend or family member about to get involved/already involved is pretty angry about themselves and loved ones getting lost in this for who knows how long. I understand the need for these sites to warn others of this scam, but isn’t there anything we can do to get this stopped?

    I read the book Merchants of Deception and was absolutely furious with Amway/Quixtar/Mon Avie/Team/Life scammers/gurus. It seems that they are pretty powerful inn achieving their end goals with people and money. What can I do to aid in the dealth of these Wolves in Sheeps clothing/Psychopathic/Narcissistic so called Leaders (that cracks me up) who want to take over and lead us? I would be more than willing to put the time that it takes to keep others out of this scam and get them shut down.

  180. MustHaveBeenTerribleMother permalink
    August 20, 2012 1:17 pm

    CORRECTION: THE ABOVE AUTHOR’S NAME: NICK LEJA (I really need to wear my glasses). Anyway: for years after he wrote that, people came on with similar stories and/or people came on screaming. Finally, this is what he wrote as a response:

    “Nick Leja9/23/2009
    Thanks everyone for your comments. It’s nice to see so many responses. While I encourage arguments for both sides of the story, I would appreciate it if we didn’t attack one another but rather state our case. People involved in Team aren’t bad or lazy, and neither are those who are against Team. The purpose of my article was not to push people away from Team, but give people a heads up of things to watch out for. I just opened a franchise, and before I even started the process of opening it, all the expenses were laid out in front of me along with knowledge of where the money comes from. When I was in Team, all the investments were not laid out and they refused to show where the profits come from. They said to just have faith. I am only trying to encourage those looking to join Team to try and get some more answers and see some figures if they are joining Team hoping to turn a profit.”

    After this, people still kept sending in responses, too

    [editor’s note: added blockquote around quoted material]

  181. MustHaveBeenTerribleMother permalink
    August 20, 2012 1:23 pm


    Click to access viewer

  182. August 20, 2012 1:51 pm

    There are other good stories from ex-TEAM members here:

  183. MustHaveBeenTerribleMother permalink
    August 20, 2012 2:17 pm

    OOPS: CORRECTION TO MY LAST LINK: I think that was a Quixtar court case. And
    @Amthrax…yeah, I read a lot of those, too. It’s all just so unbeliveable, but yet, I see how people got drawn in….I truly believe Woodward and cronies are egomaniacal, slyly figuring out how to domesticate (their word, not mine) the group to keep the group dependent and “money for nothing and your accolades for free” (a take on Dire Straits/Mark Knopfler song).

  184. MustHaveBeenTerribleMother permalink
    August 20, 2012 2:40 pm

    @AlmostIn: Is you ex-boyfriend still in LIFE? I sit here each day, wondering if tomorrow night will be the big “sunshine blowing love meeting night” attended by my grown son, almost 40 and with two small children, I wonder if he is is going to be throwing more money away on meetings and CDs and books or soliciting people in our small city.

    We have an extensive network of old-time families here—all of our kids know each other, and we’re of an age now, where even some have grandchildren in college (my son is 38 yrs older than his kids)—I have the word “out” to all of the parents my age about this scheme, should their grown children approach them with it, too.

    I’m almost beyond the horrible verbage my son hurled at me. I’m almost beyond calling Orrin Woodward “woodturd”. I’m almost beyond cussing out the lying toady, Dan Hawkins (the young Wisconsin guru who has my son mesmerized).

    It’s almost visible in my typing, i.e., I manage to hit more keys correctly when calm, and once I truly calm down about this, I’ll be able to think better about how to handle the inevitable destruction my loved one is headed for–he got into this in far more desperate measures than he should have. It’s sadly ironic: our act of financial kindness toward him between April and July which was meant to benefit the family who welcomed their second baby, inadvertently allowed him to think “hmmmmm….maybe I can get rich quick trying LIFE.”

    I feel like a duped dolt, just about my son (he has a conscience; he didn’t do this on purpose, I know but he just didn’t bother to investigate, because immediately, they told him NOT TO DO THIS)—never mind what I’m thinking about Orrin Woodward and Dan Hawkins.

  185. August 20, 2012 2:48 pm

    Let’s try to keep the name calling down to a minimum. Many of us have used them in the past to describe Woodward and his cohorts, but we should stop. We shouldn’t stoop down to their level of name-calling and belittling.

  186. MustHaveBeenTerribleMother permalink
    August 20, 2012 2:59 pm

    @AMTHRAX: I’m guilty; I apologize. I, too, knew from the beginning that I was stooping to their level—-the other day, I mentioned it, too in the context of: when new people come on here and we’re name calling the Woodwardians (Woodward and followers), we run the risk of losing credibility. But, I, too, get so ridiculously angry–and I’m just a Mom who lost her son to the lunacy. It must be quadruply hard for others not to do so.

    On another note: I see, in reading the State of Utah Quixtar case (the one I put a link up to but erroneously called it a Monavie case): one of the counts was CIVIL CONSPIRACY. These are the two words that I couldn’t come up with, but was feeling about what’s going on in LIFE.

  187. No Team For Me permalink
    August 20, 2012 4:11 pm

    Former Round Table – yes, many of us had people in our MV downline go inactive and then re-registered under one of Orrin’s disciple’s.

    Billy & Peggy Florence, Randy & Valerie Haugen and Mark & Tammy Crawford suffered the worst but there are bunches and bunches of us who were affected in a big way.

    I still cannot believe MV has looked the other way with Orrin, especially after they came down so hard on Rob Alwin & Mick Karshner recently for trying to do 2 mlm’s at once. Kind of a double standard. At least Rob & Mick were not raiding and re-arranging people’s MV groups.

  188. Vogel permalink
    August 20, 2012 5:42 pm

    Yep, it’s a conspiracy alright. That’s why I’ve often mentioned how I’d like to see them prosecuted for criminal conspiracy under the RICO Act.That’s hard to orchestrate, but a class action lawsuit is pretty feasible. Another option is starting a petition campaign and pressing congresspeople and federal agencies like the FTC (or FBI even) for action. Media attention would be helpful too. A louder voice.would be harder to ignore.

  189. AlmostIn permalink
    August 20, 2012 6:32 pm

    The ex-boyfriend is still in as far as I know. I told him I was worried for him and what may lay ahead if he continued. He just said that he didn’t want to waste his time talking with me.

    It’s really hard to have lost him to this TEAM/LIFE.

    After reading so much of the background of Woodward and Co, I don’t see how someone can feel comfortable with the fact that there are a lot of documents showing questionable information and background of Leaders who want to show you how to make money. It’s hard to see people who are intelligent believe in these words and put their faith in an unknown and unfamiliar group of people and listen/believe that they shouldn’t hear another side or weigh things out for themselves. A reputable company would agree with you to search out any and all information about them–they have nothing to hide.

    I may not have had a good length of time being involved in the TEAM/LIFE business, but what I experienced was enough for me to THINK that it would lead down a path of destruction and not one I was willing to go on.

    The one question that needs to be asked is: If you are wanting to be a Leader on a business that will make a great impact to many people and earn a substantial amount of income–Why do you need to follow someone’s footsteps to get there–why not be your own Leader? No one has all the answers and no one group has them all either.

    Look at the Comp Plan and P & P and then read Merchants of Deception and how cults recruit and see if any of this rings true of the TEAM/LIFE business for you.

  190. Speak Your Truth permalink
    August 20, 2012 7:07 pm


    Welcome! Thank you for sharing. Sorry to hear about your relationship, sorry to say this is so common, and too sad. They ‘claim’ the LIEf “improve” relationships, but the real life testimonies speak for themselves. It is helpful for all to share about their experiences, regardless how much time they spent in. Thanks again. 🙂

  191. MustHaveBeenTerribleMother permalink
    August 20, 2012 7:39 pm

    AlmostIn: you don’t need to have been in it AT ALL to be an indirect victim…just ask “mommy dearest” here. The fact is: it hurts. BUT, as to your questioning how people could get in it: go watch a few of the “sunshine up your heiny Utube videos” and you’ll see the seeming honesty and charisma, etc. Not only that, Woodward and his upper cronies have very egomaniacally gotten their disciples to believe things like: we’ve all been miseducated and THEY are going to have the new public school education down pat; THEY are going to restore culture to America and the entire Westernized World;

    THEY understand warfare and realize one of their points needs to be “domestication” (divide, conquer, keep dependent)—-what they don’t tell you about are the slaughter, the lawsuits, etc. Hey, girl, I feel your pain—I do NOT want to think my almost 40 yr old son is this “stupid”…….but it’s really not about being stupid. Most folks had the best of intentions, except the cretins at the top who keep making new iterations of failed businesses.

  192. MustHaveBeenTerribleMother permalink
    August 20, 2012 7:47 pm

    @webelieved: smirk…I told ya our even-in-jest-name-calling was going to come back….(but I sure am going to be at a loss for words sometimes!)

  193. MustHaveBeenTerribleMother permalink
    August 21, 2012 6:05 am

    @webelieved: your last two posts are among the best of yours yet—although I still don’t grasp everything enough to be able to decipher a few of the insider comments—not a criticism–I just don’t know enough yet to be able to nod my head in total understanding about what happened to some of those people in the unexpected, psychotic-like switchover from MV to LIFE.

    Hey, are you telling me MV is still being sold?

  194. MustHaveBeenTerribleMother permalink
    August 21, 2012 7:38 pm

    From Orrin Woodward’s “compensated communities.” blather on his blog.

    Oopsie Daisy. It looks like Orrin didn’t take his own advice—-hee hee:

    “Unfortunately, networking is filled with examples of fast growing communities which eventually crash and burn. For when leaders forget that tribes are not sheep to be sheared, but rather people to be served, the crash is imminent.”

    And what’s all this blather? First they push productivity, and then, this? (same source)

    “Remember, people join the tribe for many reasons, with most members never intending to become wealthy…….Ultimately, the real goal of community building should be to make a difference. “

    Why the heck else would people have come into prior schemes? To get religious over berry juice? To get born again over cleaning fluids? I mean, c’mon here! LOL!

    I tell ya, this is like Business Schizophrenia 101. He preaches the EXACT opposite of what they reap—it’s like being at Woodstock, listening to Hendrix, getting your pocket picked as you turn on/tune out in some kind of psychedelic oblivion.

    [Editor’s note: Added blockquotes for better readability]

  195. MustHaveBeenTerribleMother permalink
    August 21, 2012 7:44 pm

    ORRIN ON RELIGION: (source: his Faith blog)

    In his review of the book of John, he concludes:

    “In contrast, those who reject the light do so because they desire evil deeds more than mercy”

    Sorry to you who are Christian/religious, but this, in view of many different beliefs around the world and for those of us that do not subscribe to a dogma……is nothing more than planting the seeds or watering the trees of continued hate crimes against those who would think differently.

    And then he’s writing religious poems, too yet. This whole archive reads like a minister’s! It’s all just so bizarre and uncanny……he goes from military tactics to weeks of hard study of the Bible. A real jack-of-all MLM/motivational speaker trade, eh?.

    [Editor’s note: Added blockquotes for better readability]

  196. MustHaveBeenTerribleMother permalink
    August 21, 2012 7:51 pm

    Let me say nitey-nite with a piece of utter, nonsensical claptrap from GUZZARDO while waxing poetic on his section: tools for success, on his own blog page:

    “The subconscious mind thinks in images as opposed to the conscious mind that thinks in words.”

    Is this a valid statement? Can you while wide awake, close your eyes and imagine a tree with green leaves or the blue of the sky? I see, now we have the upper Poohbahs who are also neurological experts! Sheesh!

  197. Speak Your Truth permalink
    August 21, 2012 9:20 pm

    “Remember, people join the tribe for many reasons, with most members never intending to become wealthy…….Ultimately, the real goal of community building should be to make a difference. ”

    This is orrin’s m.o. way of admitting (only because he has because people already know that MOST (99%+) DON’T become wealthy, but they are “spood fed” this LIE and they imply, coerce and entice everyone they can and wil become wealthyl.

    YOU (the masses) “Will have what the “leaders/pc” have, if they just do, what the leaders/pc have done and the rest of the bs is “planting seeds”… notice the command? : and what he is really saying is: YOU SHOULD take you thoughts off of making money because we already know you won’t and don’t expect it but go ahead and make believe you are making a difference.

    And most know the “difference” they make is not even close to being noble.

    And here is where I call lies.. spinning: he says: “most never intending to become wealthy”….NO, it is the exact opposite, most DO intend to become wealthy…because that is how everyone is “sold” the bill of goods and also coerced and enticed with the “wealthy lifestyles”: or They throw out how much the PC make when they are trying to entice a prospect or “living the wealthy PC lifestyle”, “Becoming Financially Independent”, “never have to work another J.O.B.” “firing your boss”, “getting all your time back” and on and on with the deceptive messages that are force fed to the masses at EVERY turn.

  198. MustHaveBeenTerribleMother permalink
    August 22, 2012 5:05 am

    I just love it: I plug Orrin Woodward’s name into Google searches….and almost every single time I read the accolades about him, it is coming directly from HIM on his own websites! LOL!

    Example from


    “Orrin Woodward is currently ranked among the world’s top thinkers and experts in leadership. As a recognized leadership guru he’s had a lot to say about a variety of topics.

    This page is a collection of Orrin’s quotes about everything from positive thinking to politics to making honest mistakes.

    Whether or not you agree with Orrin Woodward’s leadership style, you can still appreciate someone who’s willing to opening speak his mind in the current ‘politically correct’ silliness we call modern society.

    Is there a quote you agree with or…don’t agree with? Please share your thoughts and insights about Orrin’s quotes.”

    Laughing Mother: Hello boys and girls. Welcome to my neighborhood. Today we have a new word for you: EGOMANIAC.

    Ranked among the world’s top thinkers? ARE YA KIDDIN’ ME??!!! This is just so very, very egomaniacal, that no futher commentary is necessary on my part.

    BUT, I ASK YOU: DID YOU NOTICE THE WORD “world” USED here? Again: Bwhahahahahahahha!!!!!

  199. MustHaveBeenTerribleMother permalink
    August 22, 2012 5:17 am


    Go look at some sentence construction, too: he literally equates modern society with politically correct silliness, INSTEAD of making a statement that IN today’s modern society, SOME people have adopted politically correct speech/interaction methods that he personally deems silly.

    There IS a difference. A big one. Orrin cannot see this, I don’t think, because of his case of egomania.

    Excessive political correctness is NOT the sum total of modern society, yet this is what Woodward have you believe, and that he is the Pied Piper of a bold, open-book of truth to come along and that you should appreciate that HE is not going to conform to something he deems silly (note: the rest of us might deem some of the “politically correct speech” foolish, too, but we would not reduce all of society to be composed of nothing more than this).

    There are many definitions of the word, society. Wooward chooses one of many–just go check Merriam Webster Dictionary online.

  200. Former Round Table permalink
    August 22, 2012 5:18 am

    “Is there a quote you agree with or…don’t agree with? Please share your thoughts and insights…”

    Yeah, right, just TRY to share a thought that is opposed to anything the grand poobah says. See if it ever shows up.

  201. MustHaveBeenTerribleMother permalink
    August 22, 2012 5:39 am

    SOMEBODY STOP ME! LOL! IT JUST DOESN’T MATTER WHERE I LOOK IN REGARD TO WOODWARD, and this quote is just plain too much!! (from OrrinWoodwordpress.typepad site under his pamphleteering on “Andrew Jackson: Courageous Freedom Fighter”), and note, initially he is speaking of himself as if someone else is hosting his stuff:

    “Here is a guest post from Orrin Woodward! He is working on a study of Andrew Jackson’s “Battle against the Bank.” Jackson was mentally and physically tough, kind of a forerunner to the Mental Fitness Challenge program)………….Consequently, much could be learned by the study of Andrew Jackson’s stand against the “moneyed interest” drive to re-charter the Second National Bank. Indeed, through reading Jackson’s battles against the Bank, one yearns to find leaders with similar backbones to break the Federal Reserve monopoly on America’s money. ”

    On a more sobering note: I now believe that just about every maniacal jump Woodward makes from topic-to-topic truly shows one something about his core personality. It is a narcissism so deep, that the reflection is no longer looking back at him from the pool of water, i.e., such a scenario is no longer needed because he IS the pool and the creator of all.

    And, of course, now it’s the Federal Reserve Bank. Not saying there’s no valid points here, but fer cryin’ out loud! We jump from The Gospel of John to WWII tactics to Andrew Jackson and the Federal Reserve Bank to marriage counseling……yada…yada….yada….but the bottom line is: money money money.

    He would have been much more effective had he not started preaching in all of his MLM businesses, e.g., doing the 19th century equivalent of a TREATISE on every subject that grabs his flight of fancy in ANY rhetorical subject matter existing on planet Earth.

    Oh, wait, he might have left Earth, too, because one of the first things my almost 40 yr old kid hollered at me after his sheep indoctrination was: “Mom!! I know the answers to the universe now! I get it!!”

  202. AlmostIn permalink
    August 22, 2012 12:40 pm

    We need to continue to point out what the LIFE business is in terms of financial liabilities and whether there is mind/thought control in the process of recruiting and keeping you hooked in. We need to start from the beginning and point out the all areas where critical thinking becomes impaired and how it is being affected. The point is to show others who are researching LIFE can then be made aware that what they are being told and what others have experienced does not match up.

    I attended 2 Tuesday meetings and a Major. After attending the Major was when I became aware that I had a gut feeling about the lack of information I was being given–it felt to me that I was being love bombed by people I didn’t even know–everyone took an interest in the fact that I was attending these meetings and that I was going to love and be excited about what I learn/hear from the speakers. I did not feel that I learned anything new after the initial first meeting.

    I also became concerned when each and every speaker was edified upon getting on stage-why were we paying such high respect for each and every person that came onto the stage? It just didn’t seem to fit in a meeting aspect. It would be like having the president, CEO, CFO coming into an office meeting and everyone giving them standing ovations just because they are top management–it’s not normal behavior.

    The kidcker came at the Major in Milwaukee. I can understand a day of Speakers giving out their information about getting their LIFE business started, what obstables they would need to overcome, what the financial aspect would entail best/worst case scenerios, and generally help taking that first step, etc. I was concerned that the amount of time spent at the Major was unusual–late night, all day and then late night (on same day) and then half a day the last day and the only thing I heard was each and every couple that went on stage talk about how they have a nice car and a nice house and how their respective spouses are now the cat’s meow. I was nauseated along with being ADHD when it came to sitting the long hours for these speeches and accolades for their accomplishments from themselves. I observed many people in the audience during that Major and every single one of them were glued to the stage like they were in a trance or something. This was starting to make me sick to my stomach (which in my case is a gut reaction) and knew that I was going to look into as much as I could find out about Orrin Woodward and Co.

    The fact that I had not been presented with any financial documents showing how someone who was work optional had done this. I had not been presented with the Compensation Plan or the Policies and Procedures. I asked ex-boyfriend how he knew that our Upline was really work optional and you know what he said–because he said he is. Wow, and I need to just believe that because he said so!!

    It was on this site that things started to click with my gut against the words and actions of the people involved in LIFE., it felt very questionable and creepy at the same time.

    The people who have been involved in Amway/Quixtar/Mona vie/Team/Life would have some very vivid imaginations to come up with the things they describle here and about their involvement with Orrin Woodward and pals. Why would they need to do this if not something quite detrimental to them happened. My time was very short because somehow I was able to interpret my gut feeling and the facts presented all around and come to the conclusion that this is not a legimate business venture. It is cult like and it is being lead by some very questionable individuals.
    Each and every one of us has to ask ourselves what it is that we would need from a group like this that we couldn’t get else where and why do they think that everyday ordinary people would be able to help them resolve any of their life problems–not everyone is qualified to do so.

    I so want to have this site credible in its committment to tell our stories and show the information that backs up the facts that Orrin and Co. are not who and what they are, nor do they have the best intentions for anyone involved. They really have to ask themselves if they are looking at all the facts or his MONEY the only thing they see.

  203. AlmostIn permalink
    August 22, 2012 1:20 pm

    Correction: Orrin and Co are not who and what they say they are.
    They really have to ask themselves if they are looking at all the facts or is MONEY the only THING they see.

  204. musthavebeenterriblemother permalink
    August 22, 2012 1:43 pm

    AlmostIn: my son was at that Milwaukee meeting, too. From what you say, and knowing him as well as I do, I simply cannot believe he sat through it! BTW, the poor folks on here have told their stories lots of times, and there’s links to some of them on here, too. i just went through what you did, asking for more info, worrying about credibility, etc.

    In 10 days, I have bombed this site with actual quotes out of the mouths of the Poohbahs, from their own blogs and abstracts of treatises, on subjects ranging from WWII tactics of domesticating their targets to one of them claiming babies are born naturally evil in sin. AT some point, ya just wanna call them an entire batch of schizophrenic woodchucks, you know?

  205. musthavebeenterriblemother permalink
    August 22, 2012 1:56 pm

    AlmostIn: go read, I think it’s Eric Blomdahl’s and Dan Hawkins’ counter-attacks to their victims, i.e., trying to discount every complaint they had been accused of during all of these MLM iterations….one of the poohbahs is actually on this blog site, I think….I got so lost in the muck here today, trying to restore my ability to post that I can’t remember where it is, but I am SURE “webelieved” “no more round table” “vogel” etal know full well the whole story.

  206. musthavebeenterriblemother permalink
    August 22, 2012 3:16 pm


    Take the master’s own words, right from update blogs like his 8/17/12 one where he speaks of tough-minded teams. Essentially, from what I can see, he truly believes: this digressing, i.e., more egalitarian society is simply made up of those who “are at rest and tend to stay at rest” like laws of objects. He believes this is a society where people crave entitlements, which in turn, helps to degrade society. I suppose there’s a little truth in what he says, BUT: if people are essentially ‘inert’, then this is an inbred/genetic thing regarding humans?

    Here is the quote from his TEAM update:

    “……Lets look into the ingredients of what it takes to be tough to play against.

    First of all, there is a price to pay for success. Egalitarian values have become more prevalent. With a growing entitlement culture, more people are looking for something to be given. It’s not like the western civilization is facing a famine, however, food stamp entitlements are at an all time high. There was even a recent story about a young lady who won the lottery and still collected her food stamps. Don’t get me wrong, there is a time and place for entitlements but human nature is such that if something is given for free, we will take it. It’s human nature to kick back and take it easy.”
    (Source: Orrin Woodward, 8/17/12)

    In this approach, once again you also see the MAJOR underlying assumptions of his: that failure is one’s own fault, even though the so-called failure is couched in esoteric terms and catch-phrases, all in an effort to avoid the truth: get motivated to get rich off of the backs of the poor duped slobs who came in beneath you, and hope that it lasts.

    In this approach from the quote, we see NO other definition of what organized, societal homo sapien groups do. Example: what about CARING FOR, i.e., “entitling” the ill/infirm, children, elderly, and the hungry.

    Remember, too, he wrote this in a month/year where two states in America are suffering huge tent cities, our USA version of Calcutta, India. Millions are hungry. Throngs are homeless. People pull their wagons to the food pantry.

    Orrin: do we let them die? Do we next promote Euthanasia next to get rid of the burden because people like you think failure is “all their fault”?Or do you fat cats start paying the same tax rate we lower middle class Americans do?

    Already, in California, it took a mother and two small children almost a year to become UN-homeless BECAUSE the system was so convoluted, e.g., “we will give you food stamps and $400/month to live on, BUT, we will take the money you are going to earn at the job we put you in (for $200/mo) BACK, subtract it from the $400, and then give you $200!!

    Orrin, you consider yourself pretty much of a guru magician….do you know how to stretch two hundred bucks for rent and utilities and non-edibles and gasoline and other daily expenses? If you DO, then maybe you really ARE Jesus Christ in a Holy Hand Basket.

    There is MORE than the disgusting idea that your average American merely wants a handout.

    Bye-Bey…..Just wait until I come after you on your 5 points of the decline of civilzation during the Greek period next! You know something? One of your own people, Mr. Woodward, tried to get you off of the track of simply proving you’d read some history and written one treatise after another like some kind of a manic Trollope –that person asked you to focus on the here and now.

  207. Cali permalink
    September 3, 2012 7:43 pm

    I just went back and read through some of these and the last comment about Orrin’s Western Ideology again has be scratching my head. What would a famine have to do with anyone needing food stamps? If there were a famine, food stamps would be worthless. I can’t believe this garbage. I live in California, where rent on a one bedroom apartment is around 2,200 bucks a month. min. Wage is 10 bucks an hour. Babysitters make at least 15 (some 18-20) an hour. Subsidized daycares have waitlists months sometimes years long. So if you were a single mom with no family working fulltime at say 15 dollars an hour, how do you expect her to pay rent, a babysitter and food? Even two working parents would not be worth it if they had to give their whole paycheck over to someone else to raise their kid. This is not about a parent’s entitlement, it’s about starving kids. Yes, Orrin I promise there are parts of Western Civilization that are facing a famine and it’s poor kids and it’s not their fault. I wish people would stop hating on food stamps, as a child I would have starved without them.

    Anyway after that rant I was searching for links to Mona Vie info up here and I stumbled upon this thread; it doesn’t help but more people out there know of this juice scam and some of the posts were just hilarious.

  208. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    September 4, 2012 3:48 am

    @Cali: you took the words right out of my mouth as to what is happening in California! A friend of mine has a daughter with 3 kids going through this right now—the whole saga is heartbreaking—authorities tried to make the mother to basically work for free 32 hrs/week, and she’d end up with 200 bucks/mo and foodstamps. Just awful! She didn’t know how to deal with babysitting and gasoline costs or her rent! She wanted to work most desperately.

    The “problem” with Woodward and the LIFE philosophy is this: he/they have taken parts of what Thomas Jefferson ended up fighting against [such as the banking system and government controls in different areas]; he has taken oddball philosophies of extremist right-wing Mormons Cleon Skousen and his protege (O. Demille) who developed the “Thomas Jefferson Education” approach to home schooling; and he has taken any parts of history that suited his end goals….and he/they actually incorporate and permeate their ideological claptrap into the minds of LIFE/Team members.

    And don’t forget Woodward himself DID say in a blog: people on welfare are “lazy”.

    Here’s what the megalomaniacs (delusions of omnipotence and grandeur for their version of Christian white man’s Western Civilization) really want: to have unfettered, unchecked “free MLM enterprise” in this country that has no controls. What they forget to tell us: Woodward himself wants to be the titular, despotic head of it all, too. This is no lie…you can see this in their writings and sick “leadership blogs”. And most unfortunately, you can see it in the end result of the lower probably-not-too-history-educated poohbahs (not all, but assume most are not) who blindly lead, taking the lead from god Woodward etal.

    Case in Point: auto mechanic Dan Hawkins saying things like: don’t listen to the naysayers because they’re probably broke. Go to the undue influence thread and listen to Dan’s new Youtube video…it’s nothing but: him getting all childishly excited and that if you just listen to him, you can have what he has. I notice he was holding the vid cam—one shoulder is much higher than the other….and he pans across his big mansion in Whitewater, WI, as he says ABSOLUTELY NOTHING of importance.

  209. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    September 4, 2012 7:18 pm

    Orrin Woodward has plans for his LIFE/Team lab rats. Check it out!

    You, too, can get a Woody Lobotomy starting at only $27.77!!

  210. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    September 4, 2012 7:31 pm

    And I won’t even bother saying how ridiculous this comment by Orrin Woodward (on his own fB page as requoted by a disciple) is…honestly, got to anywhere on Google or Bing and look up the myriad of reasons for decreased productivity:

    “One of the biggest reasons for the decline of productivity in the west is the epidemic of stealing in our culture today.”

  211. AlmostIn permalink
    September 5, 2012 5:36 am

    What Orrin & Co preach about the most is probably what they themselves are doing and they are convinced that it’s the other 95%–not them. Their thought process, the black & white–good vs. evil way of thinking is to manipulate their FOLLOWERS into believing that they know the right way to function in this world and only they, the elite of the elite should participate–the rest that do not choose to FOLLOW are doomed to a life of medicore and that’s not good in their eyes. Narcissism to a tee!!!
    One of the 8 F’s is frightening–FOLLOWING. Wouldn’t that be a word that cults use?
    Come my sheep…..let me lead you into our flock. where you will find everything you are looking for in LIFE….it can only be found here in our community. It’s creepy!!!!

  212. Don bottomley permalink
    September 8, 2012 5:43 pm

    I hope that anyone with their negativity, realizes that everytime they go to work, they go to a pyramid scheme

  213. September 10, 2012 7:33 am

    @Don – I urge you to read this article on why Corporate America is Not a Pyramid Scheme

  214. AlmostIn permalink
    September 10, 2012 11:11 am

    Very good read. It really says it all about LIFE/team and the building of a so-called community of IBOs and doing this to improve everyone elses lives and give you the opportunity to create your dreams–delusions of granduer by a NARCISSTIC guru—ORRIN WOODWARD.
    These sites are out here for a reason–don’t go blindly into a business opportunity without checking out as much as you can about the business. NO ONE on the up-and-up rushes you to make a decision immediately or within 48 hours on starting a business with your hard earned money.

  215. Speak Your Truth permalink
    September 10, 2012 5:13 pm


    I agree there is so much valid, factual, and critical information out there that if people are searching they will find it. It was much more difficult to find this information not that long ago. It appears the SEC is cracking down on the Ponzi-Schemes which is a good sign that something could be done to those who create many losses for too many people, in these hard economic times.

    There are many intelligent, experts, and experienced people who have studied the facts and or spent time in inner circles and behind the scenes, who are doing a great public service educating others and have created websites, wrote books, brought the information to light, and are informing the world about the grim reality of the MLM Industry and their destruction, deception, loses and relational damages.

    In the past the MLM industry have in general been able to silence the critics, but those days are over and the truth of their secrets, cover-ups and comp plans (dismal facts), atrocious attrition rates, etc.. is certainly reaching others and gaining momentum.

    I realize I am only one tiny piece of this puzzle but will do my part and collectively. We are helping others understand and open their eyes to the wake of destruction orrin & the minions cause in a multitude of people’s lives. I believe this is the moral and right thing to do. 🙂

  216. AlmostIn permalink
    September 11, 2012 7:59 am

    Speak Your Truth-

    I lost the person I love to LIFE/team, Orrin Woodward & Co. It’s really hard to stand by and not inform others of the destruction they are doing. I may not have been too involved in what team/LIFE offers, but what I saw spelled–C-U-L-T and D-E-C-E-P-T-I-O-N. The frog in boiling water analogy would fit the description of what occurs in a group/community like this.
    I, like you, may only be one tiny piece of this puzzle, but have been so incensed and effected by what ORRIN WOODWARD & CO will do and has done to people’s lives,
    I can’t turn away from encouraging anyone thinking that ORRIN WOODWARD & CO (know how to make all your dreams come true & what this world needs to live a successful life) to not take full advantage of any and all information out before making the move into team/LIFE. If it helps one person at a time by this site to encourage (not discourage outside information other than team/LIFE information) and the need to look deep into the practices and teachings of any/all mlms, to read and understand that your ability to reason and think will be greatly affected by team/LIFE and it’s leaders and that the mathamatical probability of succeeding in team/LIFE is 99.9% impossible. The saying that “if it looks and sounds too good to be true, then it is”. It’s a NARCISSISTIC relationship in team/LIFE, I win (Orrin) you lose (YOU).

  217. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    September 11, 2012 8:15 am

    AlmostIn: I hear you—we, too, feel so indirectly affected by LIFE/team…it’s been 31 days now since the loss of our loved one down into that black vortex. What the heck kind of business actually promotes this crap of alienating family!! (no need to answer literally, I know the answers–it’s just rhetorical)

  218. Brent Hansen permalink
    September 11, 2012 10:15 am

    Gotta love the hype! Top-Leader, hahaha…that is a subjective statement, isn’t it?

  219. Speak Your Truth permalink
    September 11, 2012 10:59 am


    I am sorry to hear you too lost someone you loved, I know nothing of where you are with that but whatever you decided, I wish you well. You gave a perfect analogy another fitting one is the ‘egg in the frying pay’ or “this is your brain on drugs.” The Undue influence,mind control,lies, deception, are powerful but not permanent and flat out evil. It is so glaringly evident in all the comments and the family turning on family is the most appalling.

    They can only hold family and loved ones hostage for so long, this stronghold isn’t 100%, and eventually the wake up call snaps them out of it and they will remember, blood is thicker than water, will realize it was their family and loved ones who were the only geniune uncondtional love they had.

    The struggle comes, when the loved ones get out (mostly because they go broke), this drags them through the rock bottom and soul searching process and then the real work and the real pain gets faced. It is a necessary process. So the families of these loved ones will need to be there for them, because I guarentee they will be disregarded like a piece of trash from any of their ‘conditional’ pretend friendships and the believed ‘savior’ gurus.

    It is disturbing how they use control and totally strip the minds of the gullible and prey on the hurting with their twisted lies, spinning, and deception. They are viloating people on so many levels, but here lies the solace.. there are consequences and eventually they will be held accountable and pay a way higher price than any money they can fleece from the downlines..

  220. Speak Your Truth permalink
    September 11, 2012 11:15 am

    “At work” on his “b-business” and repuation management, wonder what the price of that one sided MLM propaganda will cost?,,, monetarily or otherwise. Too bad so many are that easily brought to their knees in awe and fooled by a great deceiver. What a sad state people are in.

  221. Speak Your Truth permalink
    September 11, 2012 12:35 pm

    It really is pathetic how the people in the MLM world have to make the “TOP” fleecers appear… bigger than life. The stroking of each other’s egos is downright nauseating.

    Funny how people just ‘buy into’ someone they don’t have a clue about, and can’t see through the manipulation but they all follow the mlm rule (i.e. not only say only nice things about someone, but lift them up to a god status; standard in the pretend industry) the saddest part, is people reapeat it are so gullible they believe it.

    orrin manipulates his way into the lives of people who will lift him up to an idol proportion, even if it isn’t genuine or is only for ‘business’ reasons…It doesn’t matter he believes the end justifies the means and for him, it pays real well to fake it…”what-ever-it-takes”.. orrin craves this and is a master at ‘using’ people to get some illusionary credibility and his ego stroked and from what I have seen it is an MLM standard and how they all play the game.

    It seems people today are way too desperate and looking to ‘follow’ or ‘find’ “A” god… in all the wrong places.

  222. Speak Your Truth permalink
    September 23, 2012 1:55 pm

    Orrin’s recent tweet, although it is old an worn out by him:

    “Living in your past is like driving a car looking in the rearview mirror. You must look forward to advance.”…

    As he walks away collecting for himself off of others centuries worth of work, with no recourse or JUSTICE.

    Astounding advice!

  223. Speak Your Truth permalink
    September 23, 2012 1:59 pm

    Perhaps he just broke off his rearview mirror 🙂

  224. Sammy permalink
    November 26, 2012 8:30 pm

    Im realizing that this blog and most blogs about Orrin and the Life business are usually written and maintained by just a few people who dont have any current information or ties to these guys. I think you should look further into what they are doing nowadays, and what they are actually doing for people, all across North America. Ive been around to know the business, a lot of its leaders, and some of the founders, and their experience with the progressions of their business and why they didnt see eye-to-eye with the other leaders, and left Quixtar..

    I also know several people who are succeeding in the LIFE business, including myself. I’ve seen lots of people get their finances and lives in order, and eliminating debt, paying off unwanted bills, get sent on trips, and retire early… while at the same time, they’ve gotten their marriages together and learned how to be better parents to their children. While I’m sure the old business models have not worked out for people the way they were promised, or the way that they wanted it to, but sad to say- they might not have hung on long enough while Chris and Orrin were making the changes for the new businesses. Anything they have ever done has been an IMPROVEMENT, and has given us more freedom and results.

    Nothing here is promised… unless you are willing to do the work. I find that the most people I read about, or talk to, who have any negative experience with them, and the ones quickest to talk… are people who didn’t actually go work it. If you’re only getting your information from people who may have been in business with them years ago, and quit, chances are you havent talked to the people who stuck around, to see Chris and Orrin start their own company where they arent bound by another company- that only tries to take money from peoples pockets. Thank God we have the freedom and means to do the right things for people now. The business works. And it is amazing. Period.

  225. November 27, 2012 10:15 am

    @Sammy – To take a line from @freedomhaha, “What percentage of your team is making a profit?”

  226. November 27, 2012 10:27 am

    @Sammy – Get your facts right.

    There’s only a handful — TEAM Scam, the Facebook group and this site — of critical sites that are updated on a regular basis.

    Most of the blogs “about Orrin and the Life business” are actually written by current TEAM/LIFE members. Orrin himself has over half a dozen blogs in his own name.

  227. Former Round Table permalink
    November 27, 2012 10:45 am


    Thank you for your thoughtful comments. I joined Orrin Woodward’s business in the 1990s, reached Founders Emerald in Quixtar, Triple 100 and Round Table with Team, was “retired” from my job for years, and stuck around until 2010. I did the work, and succeeded. And I know Orrin Woodward and Chris Brady better than you ever will.

    I have not had any direct contact with them since 2010, so you are correct that I do not know first-hand what they are doing today.

    But I do know, first-hand, what they were doing when I left. Let me just say this: if what Orrin Woodward was doing was so noble and honest, I would not have left. If Team Life was a good deal, I would not have left. If Orrin Woodward was the man he wants you to think he is, I would not have left. If Orrin Woodward was capable of telling the truth, I would not have left.

    I left for one reason and one reason only: Orrin Woodward is a lying charlatan whose sole purpose in life is to elevate himself to near god-like status while removing as many dollars from your pocket as he can.

    However, if he was honest about his goals, no one would follow him. So he has developed a wonderful facade of a business to fool you and countless others into believing Team Life is the real deal.

    I have just three questions for you: If the Team Life materials are so wonderful and beneficial to people, why don’t they offer them for $1 downloads online? Why do you still have to pay full price to sit in someone’s living room and watch a seminar? And you pay HOW much for your Electronic Business Center subscription?

    I will pray for you and your family. I know I will never be able to repair the relationships I lost because I was so busy being “retired” that I did not have time for my real friends. I will never be able to regain the time I lost with family because I was so busy being “retired” that I missed countless family gatherings. I will never be able to regain the years lost in my career because I “retired” from my job.

    But I am free! Free of the lies and deception and the stupid belief that I actually owned my own business. Free to enjoy people for who they are, and not what they could be for my business. Free to socialize with whomever I want, even if they were crossline. Free of feeling guilty for taking a night off or watching a TV program. Free to serve God first, then family, then business.

    Good luck to you Sammy. You will need it.

  228. Melanie Morgan permalink
    November 27, 2012 10:49 am


    Explain what YOU mean by those who didn’t do the work? What level are you Sammy and how much “profit” have you made vs your expenses? Please provide your tax return with your Team pay (did you know they pay from there too or haven’t you spent enough ($300 or $600 to even be allowed to earn any money?…or Haven’t you been voted in? Also provide your LIEF pay and your expenses for the year? And please include the “formula” for Team profit-sharing. Do you disclose the Team Profit-sharing or didn’t you know about it…do you share this with every brand new prospect?

    Have you read the LIEF P&P?; Do you go over this with every new prospect that they can have their “business” taken away at the discretion of the PC, that they don’t own anything..and if so is that why you don’t come with your full name?

    I agree they have “changed” some things but it is debatable the “positive” benefits. Are you saying improvements in the old Amway system or are you comparing the MVP in Monavie? Is it the “pay-plan” you are comparing? Exactly what are you saying is an improvement?

    You say:” Chris and Orrin start their own company where they arent bound by another company- that only tries to take money from peoples pockets.”

    Also could you share the information on the CD they made about the “History” of the Team? Since you claim they have IMPROVED, share with us the “improvement” in their “profit-sharing” that shows that more than 95% +, don’t LOSE money. Is this what you mean by taking money from peoples pockets? Oh and let us know what checks and balances are provided to keep the PC honest?

    Looking forward to your response.

  229. freedomhaha permalink
    November 27, 2012 1:31 pm

    Former RT- Bravo. Your post was simply excellent.

    Amthrax- It is such a simple question, but yet we haven’t found a person to answer it. 🙂

  230. Brent Hansen permalink
    November 27, 2012 2:46 pm

    Sammy wrote, “Thank God we have the freedom and means to do the right things for people now.”

    Call me skeptical Sammy but do you care to substantiate that claim with evidence? My personal email is

    You substantiate your claims in your post, and I will leave this blog forever. You don’t, and I will come back here and post what I learned about you.

    I am calling B.S. Care to take the challenge?

  231. No Team For Me permalink
    November 27, 2012 9:47 pm

    Many of us on here were some of the biggest leaders in Teamscam and knew Orrin on a much more personal level than most people ever will. And after getting to see the man behind the curtain, many of us are convinced that the person you see on stage is nothing like the person behind the curtain.

    After close observation, it is our belief that Orrin would sell his soul for his own benefit. and sadly, many of us believe he has literally sold his soul as a result of his greed. Watch the clip from his former Paster speaking about businesses that promise fast riches at brainwash people with tapes & CD’s. Any guess who he is talking about?

    My personal belief is that Orrin is one of the most dishonest, deceitful men I have ever met. A look at all his personal blogs and his attempts to get himself ranked as a ‘guru’ and expert show how ridiculous his level of self-absorbtion is.

    He and his organization have caused more damage (financially, in friendships, in families) than any organization I have ever heard of. The carnage he has left behind in his wake has got to be tens of thousands of people who had a negative experience with this man and his scam.

  232. November 28, 2012 5:27 am

    @ “Sammy” – I know how you feel. I felt the same way, but what I found was that Orrin and his “Yes”-men are NOT who they appear to be. Don’t take THEIR word for it, listen to what they say and watch what they do. Use your critical thinking and you’ll see that they don’t walk the talk.

    True, I don’t know all the details of what the TEAM is currently doing in the “New and Improved” business, but I suspect it’s the same thing they’ve been doing for years and years…stealing from the poor and giving to the rich (themselves). They’ll do anything to keep the Reverse Robin Hood routine going, all in the guise of “improving” the biz, but basically they’re on the lam. They use one con game until people figure it out (or until it fails to net them enough profit) and then they switch to a new game, much like a fugitive has to move to a new city or take on a new identity in order to stay one step ahead of the authorities.

    You may say that we didn’t stay in long enough to be successful, but I beg to differ. While we were not as successful as many of the people who post on this site, we were moderately successful, reaching Q12 Platinum level in Quixtar, Turbo 50 in TEAM and Gold in MV. We spoke all over North America so I would say we had some knowledge of the inner workings of the TEAM. We saw the TEAM go from Quixtar/Team of Destiny to TEAM to MV TEAM, all in the name of “improvement”. IMO, Quixtar/TOD was the best business in the 8+ years we were “all in”. I never saw that there was any improvement when we moved to the others, all I saw was that we had to toss out our old tools and build a completely new tool trunk with every “improvement”. If you stick around long enough, you’ll find the same to be true. Orrin changes business models often so he can profit from the newly-released tools that you’re not forced to buy (unless you want to go Power Player), but “they don’t know of anyone who has been successful without them”. Essentially, you’re buying your way into their Good Ol’ Boys club.

  233. November 28, 2012 6:07 am

    Sammy, another drive-by TEAMmunist, is being kept too busy counting tree branches to see the forest.

  234. freedomhaha permalink
    November 28, 2012 6:19 am

    Sammy- It might not seem like it now, but I can promise you that the people that have posted responses to your comment are doing this out of love. They do not what to see you, or anyone else, go through that pain that is eventually associated with TEAM/LIEF. I was far from what you would consider “successful” in this business, but I still feel the effects of being in a cult a year after I have left. Do the right thing Sammy for your family and friends.

  235. November 28, 2012 11:00 am

    “And you better believe Orrin and the PC know about it!”

    Oh that is true. They are behind it alright, from behind the scenes. Why? If dear leader gets involved in a trivial matter (from the perspective of his adherents, viz-a-viz the facade he has cultivated) Sammy might actually stop counting the tree branches for a minute and that’s a no no. I reckon it’s the chance needed to see the forest.

  236. Melanie Morgan permalink
    November 28, 2012 11:16 am

    exambot~ lmao!


    I hope you deeply think about what is said here; from those who have been around the PC for years.

    Ask yourself: Why would all these high level leaders tell you their first hand accounts, why they left, the Team & Orrin? (those he promoted as his “friends” and some of the “biggest and fastest Leaders on the Team”)…As Mike Collins says; there is enough preponderance of evidence here, and if you use your common sense, you could clearly see this too.

    You are either really naive or already know what is being said here is the truth, or are trying to protect your pittance, or do you feel “obligated” to “defend” them because that is what they have sold you on, maybe all of the above? Otherwise, you would not come here to risk your own…”Orrins” business, by violating the contract you signed;..(LIEF P&P). You do know you are violating this, right?

    Why would they sue Raquel..”the Peters”… who is speaking with her real name, about her experience, opinions, and inner workings? Is it because they know it is the truth? Why would they go to such extremes to sue her…if they didn’t know it was the truth?

    Don’t they tell you to “prove the critics wrong with your results?”, then why are you here and why aren’t they practicing what they preach?

    ***Orrin in response to his “Qrush” anonymous blogging, stated he decided he NO LONGER was going to attack the critic because it hurt his attitude and he was sorry for passing on gossip? He has numerous times since this “commitment” bashed the critics and don’t think for a minute he isn’t aware of and approving of this lawsuit! So what is his word worth?***

    Did you not know or are you just in denial that Orrin and others did this very thing during the Quixtar lawsuit? But now calls himself a “whistle blower” and implies he was so “heroic” for doing what he did? He himself, uses the “freedom of speech” as their defense?! C’mon, Sammy, think!

    They tout they believe in “freedom of speech” and “fight for freedom?” Sammy, you can’t have it both ways. You either believe in freedom of speech or you don’t, it is not “exclusive” to Orrin & Team. Their P&P’s clearly gag people, why do you think they put it in their contract? You should really read it.

    Sammy, have you been asked to participate and comment along with all the other “followers/pawns” who are told to go on their sites to “google bomb?” To “rank their sites” and push this site to the 3rd page because they know most don’t go past the 1st page, let alone to the 3rd page. Do you really believe this is “ethical” and if what is said on here isn’t true then what are they so worried about or why waist so much time?

    Why do they desperately try and hide this site, Sammy? THINK.

  237. Melanie Morgan permalink
    November 28, 2012 11:36 am

    I feel sorry for Sammy, his friends and family, when reality strikes, however long that takes, it will be a painful experience for all of them! Ultimately, it is his/her choice, but he/she cannot say he/she was not warned!

  238. Freedomhaha permalink
    November 28, 2012 12:07 pm

    I will never post another comment on here if I can get one member of TEAM to answer this question: What percentage of your downline TEAM is making a profit? The posters on this forum have laid out numerous challenges, but not one of us has been taken up on them.

  239. Melanie Morgan permalink
    November 28, 2012 12:51 pm



    Orrin’s Qrush Blogging was verbally attacking the “Critics” of AMWAY!!! Read it for yourself! You know the company he sued and thought was an “illegal pyramid scheme”, with “hopelessly overpriced products”… the same Amway…that was the “best business bar none!”… for at least 4 years, as he kept promoting,”selling hope” and telling everyone to buy their 150 pv or more, and continue to bring more people into, “going to a million people!!”

  240. freedomhaha permalink
    November 28, 2012 3:39 pm

    Why would the Qrush blog still up? You would think it would be deleted by now.

  241. Melanie Morgan permalink
    November 28, 2012 4:04 pm


    According to Orrin, he contributed to the content, but someone else on his team started it. He said he asked for it to be taken down, it stopped being posted on but wasn’t taken down. Just my opinion, I think someone forgot the password. 🙂

  242. freedomhaha permalink
    November 28, 2012 4:54 pm

    Melanie- Had to believe he didn’t have complete and total control of something.

  243. Brent Hansen permalink
    November 28, 2012 6:21 pm

    @freedomhaha, speak for yourself, I posted out of spite and contempt. Love? pfftt….

    And where is Sammy? crickets chirping…………..

  244. freedomhaha permalink
    November 28, 2012 6:41 pm

    Brent- I would LOVE to have a couple friends back that I lost because they are so far gone in this cult.

  245. Brent Hansen permalink
    November 28, 2012 6:45 pm

    Well, I can appreciate you sentiments. Good luck with that.

  246. freedomhaha permalink
    November 29, 2012 4:08 am

    Brent- Also, I think I have more sympathy for the “little people” that come comment on this blog because they were tricked just liked I was. I have NO love lost with the PC that are knowingly and willingly perpetrating a scam that ruins many people financially, mentally, and spiritually.

  247. Rascal Teamster permalink
    November 29, 2012 8:15 am


    Orrin has taught this story from stage multiple times, so I want to teach it now. This reprint is from Wikipedia (

    “The Scorpion and the Frog is a fable about a scorpion asking a frog to carry him across a river. The frog is afraid of being stung during the trip, but the scorpion argues that if it stung the frog, the frog would sink and the scorpion would drown. The frog agrees and begins carrying the scorpion, but midway across the river the scorpion does indeed sting the frog, dooming them both. When asked why, the scorpion explains that this is simply its nature. The fable is used to illustrate the view that the behaviour of some creatures, or of some people, is irrepressible, no matter how they are treated and no matter what the consequences.”

    You can say, Sammy, “that was Team in the past, and this is LIFE. This is different.”

    I would caution you about that thought process. The line, “I would never sting you. That would doom us both” sounds a lot like, “your upline would never do anything to hurt you. That would be hurting them, wouldn’t it?”

    I like this lesson from history that Orrin has taught from stage. Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me……OR…..once a scorpion, always a scorpion is an incredible lesson.

    Sammy, if I were you, and I was, I’d listen to Orrin on this one and not trust him to get you to the other side of the river. If he stings you, it’s just his nature.

  248. Bryant permalink
    February 25, 2013 9:16 pm

    wow… someone surre goes to a lot of time to tear others down. Like Monavie, Team or LIFE are the only companies that are structured like this? It is obviously NOT the business model your upset over. Your language and attitude is that of a six year old girl that got her doll taken… nice… Ya… this is a credible site…. Jesus loves you though.. 🙂

  249. freedomhaha permalink
    February 26, 2013 4:43 am

    Bryant- Saving someone from a business that is guaranteed to lose money except for the top less than 1% is tearing someone down? Saving someone from a cult that is proven to brainwash its followers tearing someone down? Is being there for people as they leave TEAMcult for free tearing someone down? What happens here is the building up of the victims of this scam.

    Sure, other “businesses” are structured like this, and they have also been highlighted as scams on this blog.

  250. Melanie Morgan permalink
    February 26, 2013 3:01 pm


    Depends on what you are referring to when speaking of “structure”, but the “structure” of someone’s Team could have Everything to do with some serious issues, especially when you are speaking of Team, LIEf, & Monavie. at least from some of us on here.

    Especially the “structure” of many people’s business that was removed without consent from one leg and thrown into another, therefore, destroying the “structure” of someone else’s Team, or in these cases destroying others business structure. The LOS is what it was called in Amway, where Orrin Woodward, CB and the rest of the PC’s LOS game from! Without the protection of your LOS, Bryant you don’t have a “business”, So in that context the “structure” is everything…

    Here is the main point, this site has many high level people that were in Team, MV and others who have been in LIEF so obviously that is where their experience comes from. It seems you might be on to that though?

    This site mentions other businesses such as Amway, Quixtar, Team, Team Monavie, Team, Team LIEF, LIEF, IAB, FTHM and even the Leadership guru website (you can read about it at the top right of Amthrax page)..etc…and all MLM’s are basically “structured” just like the Team…You got the guys at the TOP who make the lions share of the money off the backs of the bottom or majority.

    That is how MLM’s are structured, but in case you are still butt hurt and you want to find those other businesses mentioned (only because you haven’t read the site) then, here is a few: you can search the site and read about…

    The IAB ,(which was shut down by the FTC because it was an illegal pyramid scheme and here is another one: the FTHM ( another alleged illegal pyramid scheme, recently SHUT DOWN by the FTC)…I highly recommend you follow that one especially and study it, to get yourself up to speed, it could be a eye opener…it could help you in more ways than you know…Also read about how Orrin & Chris’s leadership guru rankings were rigged and then revoked.

    Familiarize yourself with the FTHM and what got them shut-down! Read about their ‘word-of-mouth’ advertising, read all the defenders of that one owner, eerily familiar how they worship him, make sure you pay attention closely and their rhetoric on how they promote that business and study their followers behavior. I am very will get the picture! Let us know if anything rings true. Good luck.

    But then your question was rhetorical because you never really wanted the answer. What you really wanted was to come on here and throw your stones… your attempted insults…spoken like a true follower and another example of a Team-LIEfer in training.

    Way to go buddy, keep following.. looks like that amazing “world-class-system” has changed your life too, I can tell by your loving graceful attitude that shines right through. Reminds me of all the other followers who stop by and never come back. 🙂

  251. Melanie Morgan permalink
    February 26, 2013 3:11 pm


    One last thing, while your reading up on the FHTM, make sure you are asking yourself the ‘right questions’ is an example that could be to your benefit: “What can I learn from what the FTC says is a illegal pyramid scheme and what are the consequences?”

    …I believe you will find your answers.

  252. Just a taste permalink
    March 8, 2013 8:12 pm

    Got invited to a “meeting” about “leadership” by a relative. I work for a global consulting firm with infinite amounts of free-to-me professional development material but figured “what the hell, he asked me so it obviously matters to him that I go”…oops, it was a pyramid scheme pitch for LIFE. Damn.

    As a critical thinker, acutely aware of the scam they were pitching, this was quite an experience. A few observations:

    1. The crowd was clearly segregated into three groups of people:

    i) Suit Guys (15% of the people) – All of the presenters / scam artists wore suits. Not just regular suits, over-the-top suits that were very out of place compared to the venue and dress of the non-presenters / scam artists. To the brainwashed, this put these guys on a pedestal. To me, I saw used car salesmen in cheap suits dressed up by cuff-links and tie-clips.

    ii) The Brainwashed – Looking at the crowd during the pitch, I saw a crazy number of people nodding vigorously, like they are getting paid for each time their heads bobbed. Not far from the truth likely, except that by “paid”, I mean “positively reinforced via evil brainwashing techniques”.

    iii) Uninitiated Targets – Sadly, this group had way too many old folks and poor people.

    2. Whenever a Suit Guy was brought up to the front of the room to speak, The Brainwashed applauded way too much, going so far as to give standing ovations. Couple reasons why this was weird. Firstly, we were in a room that fit 20-30 people – standing ovations in an intimate setting like that never happen organically. Secondly, The Brainwashed awkwardly took their standing cues from the Suit Guys, like they didn’t know when to stand on their own.

    3. According to the Suit Guys, they were the poorest of the poor before joining LIFE and now they are living the “Canadian” dream.

    4. Also from the Suit Guys, the best way to get out of explaining the logic of an illogical concept is to tell a story about an analogy and a metaphor, and then follow that with a series of unconnected stories.

    5. The Brainwashed would clap whenever there was mention of someone in LIFE making money. The amount was irrelevant, without fail clapping ensued.

    6. Each of the Suit Guys made a joke about being sore from the gym – pretty sure they didn’t actually go the gym.

    7. In exchange for the $50/month + $120/up-front you have to pay to get involved, you get the privilege of PAYING $10 to attend each future pitch and be one of The Brainwashed or if you’re lucky, Suit Guys. Uninitiated Targets can obviously attend free of charge (in other news, this is how heroin addictions start).

    8. Pretty sure that the Suit Guys would rather meet one of the top LIFE income earners than Barack Obama.

    In summary, this two-hour experience from the Twilight Zone leads me to conclude that LIFE/TEAM is a truly heinous concept. The saddest part is that almost none of the LIFEers think they are doing anything wrong. They are literally being conditioned, like Pavlov’s dogs, to change their entire value system. I found myself hating the Suit Guys for taking advantage of the Brainwashed and Uninitiated Targets, but really they are just the highest performers from the roster of Brainwashed. It’s easy for me to blame the creator of LIFE for victimizing so many thousands of innocent people, but that won’t do anything. As a society, we will always have people that fall for ridiculous scams like this. We are victims of our own ambitions to be better people. It is up to the skeptics and the critical thinkers to shut these scams down and help the people that can’t help themselves.

    Now I have to go learn how to un-brainwash my relative.

  253. March 10, 2013 9:24 am

    @just a taste – enjoyed reading about your experience at a recent LIFE meeting. Your description of the three types of people at the meeting was very good; I hope you get some good tips from this site (and the Freedom of Mind site in the right-hand sidebar) on how to talk to your relative.

  254. Rascal Teamster permalink
    March 10, 2013 12:10 pm

    @Just a taste,

    Excellent observations. Dead on. Thanks for the post.

    Hopefully a future “prospect,” I mean, “target” will hear it.

  255. Melanie Morgan permalink
    March 10, 2013 3:31 pm

    Just a taste,

    I agree excellent, best I have seen! I wish everyone would get it, like you did! Thanks! What kind of income claims were they trying to entice the prospects with? Financial Freedom?

  256. Freedomhaha permalink
    March 10, 2013 6:16 pm

    Just a taste- Thank you, just thank you.

  257. Mike Collins permalink
    March 12, 2013 6:10 am

    I would like to make a suggestion Amthrax. I was reading the comments on the “you deserve it thread” and see that you closed the comments for being off topic.

    Here is my suggestion: instead of allowing a jackass like PH or Bryant for that matter highjack the thread with their BS which does nothing to adress any facts but only continue the same old tired MLM spin which results in having the thread shut down (they win) would you consider just deleting all comments that are not relevant? This way these idiots don’t get to claim any victory (no matter how small)

  258. March 12, 2013 7:49 am

    @MikeCollins – With regards to that particular post, there really isn’t much more to add from what was already discussed in the original post and what had been posted earlier in the comments section. Better to close the thread than have to deal with constant moderation from people who insist on having the last word.

  259. Mike Collins permalink
    March 12, 2013 11:38 am

    I see your point, and well taken Amthrax

  260. Sidelines permalink
    March 14, 2013 2:08 am

    To: Just a taste and all,

    I have also witnessed them in action. They will first create or magnify an existing doubt or weakness in you and then tell you that this business can make it all better. They will repeat some obscure, rehearsed economical statistic which may be about how oil companies or some other big businesses profit at your expense (making you the victim). They will then suggest that you have worked hard all of your life and are worthy of something better and that you deserve to live the lavish lifestyle that the big business tycoons live.

    They will then pick out something that you currently spend money on and then claim that the amount you need to spend in this life changing business will cost no more than what you currently spend on other things . They may even pick on your 401-K plan and claim that you willingly give money to people that you don’t even know and if you trust them to invest your money for you why wouldn’t you trust your friends or family. They will condescendingly look around your home and ask, are you really happy with this? They have hundreds of sales tactics all designed to create discontent, doubt, and fear of the future. If you are already moderately unhappy about some part of your life, they will find it and suggest that it doesn‘t have to be like that. They will put out the right bait (usually implied wealth ) and you will be hooked. It’s all about being a salesman using faith as their foundation to make sales.

    They will provoke you to speak negatively about something to help justify their cause and then claim that their business can change whatever it is. But, in their world not joining makes us the “negative ones”, “the haters”, and against their business when in fact perhaps we are just not as unhappy with life as they are. Then perhaps a prayer will be shared which opens up a whole new can of worms. Emotional blackmail is what it is. I believe they are the ones who are infected with the disease of discontent, then they spread that disease, and then try to sell you the cure.

    In case you haven’t figured it out, yes, I do have friends/family involved with this group. I just sit back and watch the show. I truly do hope they find what it is they are seeking but I honestly don’t think this “Business” is the answer for them . They are busy several nights each week and most week-ends and after nearly three years have shown no major lifestyle changes. Yes, I believe it is more cultish than business. I am not negative, I do not hate those involved, I just am not that needy on any level to become involved. It’s as simple as that.

    For those who have found the Amthrax site and are trying to decide whether to join or not my message is just what I have witnessed. Do what you want to do, but my friends are three years in, still running several nights each week, still working their day jobs, and as far as I know they are still selling their plasma weekly under the guise of “doing a good deed”. Hmmm…they never did that before they were in the “Business”, is that their means to an end? Makes me wonder.

    [Editor’s note: Added paragraph breaks for easier reading.]

  261. Melanie Morgan permalink
    March 14, 2013 9:32 am


    That is one of the best observations I have seen! Keep sharing that is dead on!

  262. Mike Collins permalink
    March 14, 2013 9:33 am

    @Sidelines Great post. Absolutely brilliant. Thanks for sharing your story.

  263. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    March 14, 2013 1:33 pm

    @Sidelines: Exactly! The first thing we noticed was the “negative nelly” rhetoric with our loved one shortly after their initial involvement/indoctrination–almost verbatim to what you said, down to criticizing our college educations, that we were just (ahem, who fronted the loved one a lot of money, might I add), etc. And yup, the initial dissatisfaction with one’s own life and “looking for something” in life was there with our loved one, too–to say nothing of thinking this was going to be easy money. As an aside: I simply CANNOT imagine anyone having the cojones to come into my home and ask me if I’m satisfied with what I have—that alone would have landed the “salesman” picking him/herself up off of the pedestrian sidewalk, cleaning bootmarks off of their behinders 🙂

  264. Sidelines permalink
    March 15, 2013 1:44 am

    To ageofwisdom and all

    Sadly that is only one example of how this “faux business “ can interfere with families and friends. It is exactly what I mean about them trying to plant a seed of doubt in your head to make you buy in to their “got to have more, you are worth more mentality”. It did not take us long to realize that they are trained/conditioned to make people think they are unhappier than they really are. To react or respond to their rudeness would have only made us seem negative in their eyes and reinforce their newly found values. Initially we were a little shocked and offended but, as difficult as they have made it, we still love them and don’t want to create any more distance between us than they have already created. I have read “All That Glitters is Not God” (twice) and it was very helpful at least in helping me understand what they are involved in and why they stay in. It is some of the thoughts in that book that help keep me from disrespecting them because a part of me wants to think that they truly believe they are making a difference. But it also seems to me that my refusal to buy into their business makes them more determined than ever to make it work, almost like they are in some sort of completion with me. Bless their hearts though, they are trying desperately to have more and believe that their possessions and status in a what I believe is a “faux business” will ultimately define who they are in my eyes. Unfortunately if they continue, it will.

  265. Rascal Teamster permalink
    March 15, 2013 11:02 am

    Legal Team Stealing?????

    Oh you guys are going to love this. I was thinking about my old upline buddy and decided to throw him a text today. We’ve been shooting them back and forth all day.

    He mentioned that I no longer show up in his downline. Just a few weeks back I saw through a friends eyes that I was still in that downline….just dimmed as I didn’t renew in Nov.

    I asked him where my side leg is, as I still have a couple good friends who are in it. My buddy said, “they were automatically added to the tap root.”

    Whoa…..what the heck did you just say? Did you say that they can turn someone off or run them out & add their sideleg to the taproot and it happens automatically? Yup afraid so. Orrin made totally legal what they did illegally to Raquel…..if it is even legal now. Remember my downline never made a cent off my side leg. And it used to be that my side leg went to the next active upline. Not any more.

    Never told you guys this, but after I found out about the darkangelos, Hubers and cullens bankruptcies, I confronted Mark Paul about them. After denying knowledge of them and me basically calling him a liar, my ability to renew in Life was turned off. That little pop up that asks you for your credit card info was gone….replaced by a message that read, “your account number is invalid.” They turned me off and moved my sideleg to my taproot.

    That’s friggin priceless!!!!

  266. noteam permalink
    March 16, 2013 7:41 am

    Rascal – I also had people from my 2nd leg conveniently moved to the taproot. These guys are the most disgusting liars. They stand up on stage and talk about honesty and integrit, but behind the scenes they do whatever benefits them personally without regard to doing what’s right. These people need to be thrown in jail and forced to pay back the millions of dollars they scammed from innocent victims.

  267. E. Hardy permalink
    April 15, 2013 1:53 pm

    I was a Monavie Independent Distributor myself. I only attended a few weekly meetings and monthly seminars with Team Monavie even though I was not actually with them as I was a direct Independent Distributor. I just wanted to give my workmate company to those meetings and seminars. She was very active with Team Monavie. I did not like what I saw at those meetings. So I stopped attending. After about 2 years of not active in Monavie, I was approached by a former Team Monavie, someone I met at the meetings. She happened to recruit somebody I know for Team LIFE who had never had any experience with any network marketing business. I was shown the marketing plan, which is already very familiar to me. Although I was not really interested with the new product, I just wanted to join just to give support, but my gut feeling told me to do my research since I have no idea what happened to Team Monavie. When I decided to cancel my appointment to see the Team Life recruiter, I was so shocked to hear my friend’s reaction. Yes, Team LIFE can easily brain wash people. I read the majority of everyone’s post and I wish I have the time to read word by word, but I really don’t need to. Although I believe everything being shared is true, my instinct is telling me this business is not for me. That’s good enough for me. All I can say is, I am praying that the devilish, greedy, promoter of this business is to be given due judgment by the one and only Judge in His timing. I hate to see more people being victimized by such evil men.

  268. April 15, 2013 8:42 pm


    “When I decided to cancel my appointment to see the Team Life recruiter, I was so shocked to hear my friend’s reaction. Yes, Team LIFE can easily brain wash people.”

    Would you expound even if a bit what kind of reaction this was?
    It’s important for the benefit of others who are researching and/or at a cross road albeit even if to confirm and affirm, their most likely similar observations.

  269. Freedomhaha permalink
    April 17, 2013 5:32 am

    E. Hardy is proof is another life saved of the evil being done by the work of everyone here on Amtrax!

  270. Brandon permalink
    April 17, 2013 5:40 am

    We are all brainwashed…just depends on what information you want to live by..i mean the internet is a great place to call scams..when in actuality the entire American system is a scam… Define Pyramid…who makes all the money in any corporation…the one who puts all the risk in the beginning…or attain the role of CEO…there is usually only one of those right…and they usually make the most money. Its funny when you look at the system side of things and actually do your own Due Diligence on items that people here obviously have never taken the time to figure out.

    Just my Opinion..


    If i never make a Dime in LIFE, (Which i already have), not much but some…the information provided by LIFE from leaders like; John Maxwell, Stephen Covey, and other great inspirational leaders is not a scam, and has and will continue to help me grow into the person that i wish to become.

  271. MemoryLame permalink
    April 17, 2013 5:35 pm

    Brandon, in nearly every case the CEO or owner of any company makes the most money for the most risk. You are correct.

    That’s where the similarities between LIFE and legitimate (non scam) businesses end. 8 people -let this sink in – 8 people pocket over 85% of the money in LIFE. Unlike the vast majority of American businesses, over 99.999% of the people LOSE money.

    People on here have done a ton of due diligence, much of it to our own (and our loved ones) chagrin.

    As for the system, did you know that John Maxwell actually has his own system of information that you can subscribe to at a fraction of what you’ll pay Orrin & Chris? Did you know Covey has a great system that has literally helped millions already? You can literally order ANY book (even the ones by Orrin) in the TEAM system for significantly less.

    Unless the person you wish to become is one who builds/owns? a team of people/owners? who are losing money, so that you can be financially free? – you’re headed in the wrong direction.

    (If you own a team of owners, who is really the owner, by the way?)

  272. April 18, 2013 5:22 am

    @Brandon no doubt you are a signatory to a LIFE agreement somewhere. Consequently, you can expect to be held accountable to the same, right?

    LIFE Policies & Procedures effective since November 1st, 2011. as an Independent LIFE Member
    You must disclose your full name on all Social Media postings, and conspicuously
    identify yourself as an independent Member for LIFE. Anonymous postings or use of an alias is prohibited.

    Why are you commenting here using only one name? Can you rectify this so that you can be in compliance with the above section? Or why are you commenting annonymousely? Responding to Negative Posts
    Do not converse with one who places a negative post against you, other independent Members, or LIFE.

    Are you aware of what could happen to you or “your business” atchoo atchoo if you are in violation of your LIFE employer…I mean LIFE “business?”

    9.2- Disciplinary Sanctions
    The Company may, in its discretion, take one or more of the following actions if a Member violates the Agreement
    • Withhold one or more bonus and commission checks;
    • Suspend the Member’s Agreement for one or more pay periods;
    • Permanently or temporarily revoke or reduce the current and/or lifetime rank of
    • Terminate the Member’s Agreement; etc

    Brandon, unless you are a hypocrite and happy to be in total disregard of your employer Orrin…I mean LIFE/Orrin what will rule you today – will you man up and comply with your LIFE/Orrin’s requirements or are you just another LIFE woose?

  273. Barb Waterland permalink
    May 24, 2013 9:31 pm

    This whole Mona Vie, Life, Amway blah blah blah is soooooo much @*#*$&%^ it and those who have really figured that out, we all have to get together and put a stop to it !!! It has ruined soooo many lives with more false hope than the lottery……I myself have watched as it has and still is ruining my family… makes me sick !!!!!! Why did all of a sudden did Mona Vie Team have to change their name …..are they being sued?????

  274. May 26, 2013 3:31 pm

    TEAM MonaVie changed its name because they are actively promoting LIFE, not MonaVie. LIFE is the new MLM for TEAM, hence the name change to LIFE Training (and other derivatives of LIFE).

  275. Rascal Teamster permalink
    May 26, 2013 5:13 pm

    The word I got from Mark Paul is that TEAM will never do Monavie again. That is totally dead. Of course, they don’t tell the masses that, as they are still making money off it.

    Too bad, isn’t it, that a person feels compelled to stop drinking a product they like because of the people above them who stand to make money every time they purchase? My mom really loved the Active and has been purchasing two cases every month since we started. She has had some really cool benefits to drinking it. She just canceled her autoship due to all this crap. While over priced due to being an MLM product, it was a decent one.

    Not sure what bugs me more, that or the fact that Team still send me emails with two sentences from Orrin or Chris’ LIFE blog with no way to log in and stop it or an unsubscribe link at the bottom. It’s worse than spam. Grrrrrrr!!!!

  276. Melanie Morgan permalink
    May 26, 2013 5:37 pm

    Yea they milked and mislead, for all it was worth for the TOP 6 or 7 ….while the masses went with broke from their inventory loading.

    Now they want the full undivided attention of the masses…. minds and their bank accounts…..They knew all along and didnt give a damn that the masses would go broke on that ridiculously over priced juice and rebranded trash. They so loved Dallin, right up til they could cash in and run!

  277. Sidelines permalink
    May 27, 2013 4:42 am

    To Brandon

    ( Sorry for the long rant, but, I’ve been saving up )

    I am greatly in favor of self improvement books/CD’s that may enhance someones life. I have purchased a great John Maxwell book for $15.99, no strings attached and nobody suggesting that I read it repeatedly. I am an adult and I am able to determine what information is valuable to me, that is what freedom is. I have also purchased other books that I feel will benefit me in some way. I will never be, or encourage anyone else to be a part of a “business” that edits or limits where their so called leaders can obtain their information from. The last thing I want is to be led by someone who only knows one side of a topic,or one that discourages watching the evening news, or that discourages researching topics on the internet, or one that denies me the freedom to comment on any website that I choose, or that has so little faith in my judgement that they feel that I am not able to decide on my own what is or isn’t credible information, or that encourages their masses to pry into peoples lives to find their faults in an effort to make sales.

    I could go on and on, but, I believe, yes ” I BELIEVE”, that you can be a better, a more informed person, a more in touch with reality person without this group dictating what you can and can not do. If you aren’t concerned with the money then why allow this group to limit your resources (they will try). You can improve any area of your life without someone limiting your freedom and trying to control your entire thought process. Just a random thought, not necessarily intended for Brandon, but, perhaps it is laziness that attracts many to this business, they are no longer required to put any effort into self improvement it is all put right in front of them for the very low price of $$$ making them believe that by listening to a select few CD’s or by reading a few books they can instantly mend their past mistakes (or at least find someone to blame), and make them believe that they cannot make future mistakes by being a part of this.

    Just an FYI, I didn’t start out this way, my bitterness and “negativity” was created by repeatedly being exposed to individuals in this business who now feel the need to criticize every aspect of our lives, who bring out a book when they need some obscure quote to solve or explain a problem. Due to previous heated debates regarding my refusal to join their “business”, and the fact that their conversations only revolve around their business we have nothing left to talk about, they are consumed by this business,

    My only goal by coming to this website is to hopefully inform people that getting involved with this business can and will interfere with family and friends and if you are willing to give that up then good for you. It is highly unlikely that anyone other than those also involved in the business will have a newfound respect for what you are doing. If you don’t believe that it will have any effect on your friends and family then you better think again, they may be polite and respectful to your face but I guarantee you that unfortunately behind your back they are probably referencing you in a variety of unflattering ways. Be better but be free !! I think that will be my new motto !

    [Editor’s note: Added paragraphs for easier reading]

  278. Rascal Teamster permalink
    May 27, 2013 5:16 am

    Awesome post, Sidelines. You hit the nail right on the head.

    Team has always had an “Orrin and the Policy Council are infailable” attitude. And after a while of all the changes and other avenues when the business doesn’t work, you have to ask yourself, “If Orrin’s such a great leader, why hasn’t he figured this out yet?”

    Orrin is very smart and very well read, but as far as being a good leader, he fails miserably. If he was, I guess my former mentors, Mark and Jenn Paul, would be PC already and my former team would be growing. No way….not…..nope….not happening.

  279. Sidelines permalink
    May 27, 2013 6:42 am

    People are getting smarter, they are becoming more informed. Despite discouraging new prospects from doing their own “due dilligence” of researching this business along with it’s history and it’s leaders on the internet, people are doing it anyway and why wouldn’t they be encouraged to do this if it is truly so great. I believe what they are finding out is that perhaps the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow is not going to be found with this business which is why many of the themes that come from those involved seem to be changing from implied weath to “just being better individuals”. I believe that there are those who lack enough self esteem that are unable to feel good about themselves without the tidbits of recognition that this group offers them and they will be found here and there along the way, but, not enough of them to continue to support this particular business plan much less make anyone wealthy. I guess if it makes you feel happy do it, but, I don’t believe that truly is anyones goal. Just my guess but, I would anticipate a name change, a new product introduced or a new income disclosure statement of some sort soon to help keep things going.

  280. Melanie Morgan permalink
    May 27, 2013 11:00 am


    Great comments. I am a much better person BECAUSE, I left.

  281. Rascal Teamster permalink
    May 27, 2013 11:42 am


    It takes a much better person to be the kind who would walk away. You didn’t become better because you left. You were already awesome.

  282. Melanie Morgan permalink
    May 27, 2013 12:12 pm

    Thanks Rascal, ❤

  283. TruthSeeker permalink
    May 28, 2013 2:59 am

    @Sidelines, great observation, as I recently recognized the same implications as you. Much more emphasis is now being placed on the Life “product”, and it’s supposed value, than at any time previously.

    The product, in my opinion, is a major weak spot for the whole Life charade. By their own words, teachers or mentors must have “FRUIT ON THE TREE” in order to be effective, and
    the source of their “FRUIT” is very questionable. They aren’t making money, they are taking money.

    If people want to improve their life’s situation, there a host of other sources and options that provide clearer, more concise, and more honest information. Why pay to be instructed by “mentors” whose only “FRUIT” has come by cutting a path of destruction in the lives of others?

    Just the very existence of their curriculum directly contradicts true principles. It is really interesting that the very material they utilize to “teach” others, directly violatesor contradicts itself based on the parameters in which it is used. They literally create a noose with their very words.

    Think about it…..

  284. Sidelines permalink
    May 29, 2013 1:40 am

    Truth Seeker,
    I have thought about it, and I enjoyed your assessment, probably because it mirrors my own. Your use of the “fruit” analogy is a very accurate and easy to understand way to make your point.
    As a side note to Melanie: Although I don’t know you, I applaud your strength of character to walk away from this group, and will do the same for anyone else who does !!!

  285. Melanie Morgan permalink
    May 29, 2013 12:37 pm


    Thank you. For us personally to walk away (once we saw the truth and it could not be denied), was the quickest and easiest decision to make; it was what came after that or the rest of the process, that was devasting and difficult.

    I have tremedous compassion for those who have and have yet to experience the inevitable reality they will eventually have to face, at so many levels, and is why I didnt walk away and remain silent.

  286. Melanie Morgan permalink
    May 29, 2013 1:37 pm

    I do feel and see differently about what attracts others to the business, and see your point but dont believe it is laziness. If people really knew and understood, that it is the hinge to trap and control beliefs. They must control what others read, listen to, and who to associate with just to get others to conform, comply and remain dependant.

    It is their strategy and very foundation of why I believe it is destructive. They try and in most cases, convince others they are smarter, have more knowledge and are the only ones with the “ correct knowledge….they “have all the answers“ and are arrogantly the only ones who have the vast knowledge and ability to choose, dscide, and decifer the “ correct information for you. Their whole structure revolves around, always has and is what supports this…from “mentoring“ to every decisions you make needs approval, edification that is one of the most powerful weapons in their manipulaional tool boxes. I believe you explained this very well in your posts.

    I also believe the reason they are “selling“ the “idea“ of “bettetrment“ as their sole slogan now, is first and foremost to avoid or remain off the radar of the regulatory powers!

    NOTHING is significantlty “different“…just is how they frame it to fit their agenda, hide from their past, and what they want left as the dominating thoughts and words to their victims.

    They have Always been “selling knowlege“ , and the cult of personality..and that was thee most important…the Team was “the business“, why?….it is how they have made many muliple millions more like over hudreds of millons, and were able to perpetuate their own pyramid scheme for now now a few decades!

  287. Melanie Morgan permalink
    May 29, 2013 1:43 pm

    Sorry for the errors, this device is difficult to say the least.

  288. Melanie Morgan permalink
    May 29, 2013 2:02 pm

    They know exactly what they have done done for years, and are doing, when and if the regulatory powers catch up…. I will venture to say, it would be their demise.

  289. Melanie Morgan permalink
    May 29, 2013 3:52 pm

    One defintion of a mentor is; a wise and trusted counselor, teacher, or guide, tutor or coach.

    They play this card to the hilt…. In our case, this turned out to be one of the most fatal and the pit fall fallof all… especially when considering the operative word is “trusted.“

    They most certainly breached, taok advantage and abused trust and in so many ways the real meaning of a “ mentor.“

    Everyone at some point could be called a mentor or coach but not everyone is or should be “trusted“ as one.

    A guide, coach or true mentor does not “mentor“ for the sake of controlling you, your thoughts or even choices. And those who have had the displeasure of experiencing what they would call “mentoring“, would best learn of what not to do with people, that is if you are serious about helping others.

    But If you want to be “mentored“ in the very subtle but shameful game of conning, manipulating, and controlling, or how to get others others convinced they are “making a difference“ by perpetuating or building an ilegal pyramid shceme while convincing the entire entire team or the masses..for years .. they were in the best business bar none and to keep building…then I would agree they are some of the most shamefully best mentors…still is astounding… just know that isnt what people know.

    But wowhat about Monavie, Team, even LIFE?

    I have yet to see the difference or figure out how Amway, is an illegal pyramid scheme w/ hopelessly over priced products and not Monavie, Team or even LIfe, isnt? (again using Orrins words and lawsuit against Quixtar/Amway).

    Can ANYONE, convince me how all those companies are significantly different or why Orrin thinks Amway is and the rest, is not…..including his very own pyramid scheme? What is most astounding is they jumped right out of Amway, and yet worse these these self appointed… gurus genius…..with all their their supposed wisdom and leadership knowledge they cleverly mislead others with, and supposedly the best and fastest in the pyramid scheme…grand “leaders“ in the industry….but yet jumped right into Monavie?!!!

    Their idea of getting you to “think“, is completely self-serving and is really meant for you to shut up, conform and dont ask any real thical or honest questions..just “think“ …like them period.

  290. sinaz permalink
    June 14, 2015 9:31 am

    I’m not sure what the relevance is that a post was taken and edited to show a different company. Training for MLM is training for MLM..hence the support side and regardless of the company. it is an opportunity to build a business as well as benefit from the products sold. You could stick any MLM company name in there and the statement holds true. It’s like you are promoting it as a bad thing somehow.
    I love how these sites don’t look at the good thing people do and the difference that is made in peoples live on the positive. Only bashing them because they may have made a mistake in the past. If you only dabble in MLM, do not believe in your upline, your business or you products.. Of course you are going to fail. There is nothing malicious about it. it’s just reality of business

  291. freedomhaha permalink
    June 15, 2015 5:26 pm

    Sinaz- I can’t speak for anyone else, but my baseline problem with TEAM is that no matter how big it gets only 2% of people can turn a profit. That is just a simple ratio after expenses. I personally don’t feel right putting my name on that type of “opportunity”, but now that you have the facts you will have to make that decision for yourself.


  1. TEAM Is Dead. Long Live LIFE Training « AMTHRAX

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