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Reader Report: Figures Don’t Lie

November 12, 2011

A reader sent me another mathematical analysis of the LIFE compensation plan, looking in detail at Orrin Woodward’s claim that 70% of LIFE’s compensation dollars go to 95% of the distributor force. The reader calls BS on this, demonstrating that even in a perfect scenario, over 50% of the money goes to the top 5% in the network.

Note: I have edited the analysis slightly for added clarity.

On November 4, Orrin Woodward posted an article on his blog titled ‘LIFE Compensation Plan‘. Not only are the statements made in the article questionable, but the numbers that Orrin states in his article are wrong.

Do you want to know how the LIFE compensation dollars will be allocated and distributed? This post address and clarifies the obviously debatable figures and allocation of compensation dollars in the LIFE compensation plan.

Here is what Orrin said:

‘It is here. The launch of LIFE and the compensation plan for building communities of leaders is finally here! Imagine a compensation plan that doesn’t top out at 25%, 35% or even 45%, but rewards through volume discounts up to 50%. This isn’t even touching upon the seven depth bonuses paid out for building secure long-term businesses. LIFE isn’t a plan to get a couple of people wealthy with everyone else trying really hard. Instead, it’s a plan where 70% of the revenue is paid out to 95% of the people, meaning everyone who is moving LIFE Leadership materials will receive a bonus if they have at least 150 points worth of total business and have personal volume/customers.’

Orrin states that 70% of generated revenue with LIFE will be shared or paid out to 95% of those involved. It is not clear, or understandable, what method was used, or exactly how this could be possible with the compensation plan in its current state.

No matter how one works the mathematics they will not match or even come close to matching the supposed income distribution as stated by Orrin. Either this analysis is correct, or LIFE and its representatives are correct, which is it?

Maybe someone from LIFE can help explain how 1 + 1 = 3, because no matter what hypothetical situation is drawn, the statement by Orrin is arguably incorrect. Was this a ‘misspeak’, or does Orrin simply not understand the plan which LIFE is employing?

To illustrate the point, lets create a hypothetical situation and a hypothetical team on paper and get very specific about where the money goes. To be more than generous, we will place the benefit of every doubt in favor of LIFE in each situation. Finally, to avoid the appearance of a bias, we will figure everything from the perfect scenario of a 2×2 structure.

Here, everyone enrolls only 2, and everyone generates $150 in personal volume, with $100 of that volume coming from end users outside of the compensation plan. Since LIFE now has a $50 customer requirement, we will even double that, which — one would think — would greatly enhance the profitability of the entire network. This ‘structure’ would take the most money from the compensation plan, and place it in the pockets of would be LIFE distributors, at all levels. Despite this perfect scenario, we will soon see that the figures do not match with the promise.

For all intended purposes our hypothetical structure is as follows, a perfect 2×2 network, starting with you and continuing for 6 generations below you. Each person will maximize the plan with $150 personal volume, and enroll only 2 distributors, to be exact, the number of distributors you personally enroll is of no consequence, because Life is a volume driven business, very similar to Amway. In this scenario there will be 127 total distributors, including yourself, with $19,050 of subscription volume. For this post, we will only look at the 50% promised payout, and will not even delve into the depth bonuses, because in all reality, the depth/leadership bonuses, even paint an uglier picture than I will show here. So to be fair, and objective, we will only focus on the 50% payout spoken of by Orrin, promised by Life, and the allocation of those dollars.

Is it possible that 70% of revenue can be paid out to 95% of distributors? Where do these dollars go in a perfect scenario? Could a perfect scenario be created? Does a perfect scenario ever happen in a network? You see, to illustrate a point, I have stacked all the cards in favor of the Life compensation plan. Here are the results.

This simple graph illustrates the injustice in the basic MLM compensation plan. In the original blog post by Orrin, 70% of revenue was to be paid out to 95% of the people, but in reality, and with all numbers and statistics greatly swayed in favor of this plan, 95% is sharing a mere 47.15% of all available compensation dollars. The remaining 7 people, or 5% of this entire network is sharing 52.85% of all available compensation dollars. What does this mean? This means that even if everyone maximized the plan (impossible) over half of compensation dollars go to those at the top of the pyramid.

I hope you understand, this is as good as it will ever get with this compensation structure, this is a pie in the sky scenario that has been drawn up and presented here, one that never happens. But if by some miracle you were involved in a perfect scenario, and built a perfect model this is what you could expect. You see, levels 6 and 7 which consist of 96 people or 76% of the network is not even earning enough to pay for their own $50.00 subscription, in spite of having two non-earning customers on $50 subscriptions themselves.

In conclusion, lets quote Orrin again from August 18, 2006, where he spoke of those who know and understand the true mathematics of MLM compensation plans. Orrin wrote:

“Figures Don’t Lie — But Liars Sure Can Figure”

’Statistics can be great tools in leading us to proper conclusions, but when used in the wrong context can lead you into many wrong conclusions. In one famous headline it was stated that 50% of the presidents of the USA were found to be above average. (Since average is the 50th percentile this statement is redundant.) Learning to think through someone’s arguments and statistics will many times be the difference between failure and success! In a similar vein, many of the statistics on the Team success rate is another journey into wrong statistics at the wrong time.’

It seems as though Orrin has fallen victim to his own statement made on August 18 2006. It is evident from the above table that 70% of compensation dollars do not go to 95% of the network, even in a best case scenario. At least Orrin is correct about one thing when he said ‘Figures don’t Lie’ , and where exactly does that leave him and the Life compensation plan?

Update November 16, 2011: In light of Orrin’s revision to his original post, the original author of this reader report sent me this response:

Dearest Orrin,

In light of the recent revision of your previous post titled ‘LIFE Compensation Plan’, I felt it obvious and necessary to respond and clear the air regarding my ‘poor math’. I have chosen to respond to the entire article again, and see if we cannot wade through your response that is nothing more than a Red Herring argument, and make some sense of all of this.

In the future, I would suggest that when you use spurious accounting, use numbers that make sense and don’t just sound good to a bunch of people who have no idea of (1) exactly what they are involved in, (2) how they are getting paid, or (3) that are going to believe you regardless of what you say.

You wrote,

Imagine a compensation plan that doesn’t top out at 25%, 35% or even 45%, but rewards through volume discounts up to 50%.

Now I may be incorrect, but I am going to assume that with this statement you are trying to point out just how magnificent the LIFE compensation plan is, and how equitable it may become for those who choose to get involved. Is my assumption correct?

Do you really believe that 50% or even 70% is generous on a product that has virtually no production costs? Since 30% or $15.00 is still coming back to LIFE, perhaps you could explain what that money is for, and who it goes to. Now I am not naïve enough to believe that LIFE has no operating expenses, but a 30% gross margin with hardly any production costs is huge. Walmart has a 3.48% net profit margin, Ford motors operates (and pays stockholders) with a 4.99% net margin. Why would life need 30%, and do you care to share with your members exactly what the net margin for LIFE is?

I looked up cd replication long ago, and I can have 1000 cds stamped for anywhere between $100, or .10 cents each, and $1500 dollars, or as high as $1.50 each if I want artwork and a 4 panel jacket. I tend to believe that with your high volume discount, you are probably a lot closer to the 10 cent cost than the $1.50 cost. You cannot expect anyone to believe that 70% is generous, when the cost of production is close to nothing now do you?

You then wrote:

This isn’t even touching upon the seven depth bonuses paid out for building secure long-term businesses.

Let’s get real here Orrin, these bonuses are not applicable to 99% of everyone involved with LIFE, so why place so much emphasis on them? With mitigating factors in place, you will be hard-pressed to have greater than .01% of those involved ever be able to earn from these other two categories.

First off, you are offering 8% through the leadership bonus which only 1% maximum can achieve if everyone in their team has 2 retail, non-commissioned customers. For every LIFE Associate who doesn’t have 2 retail customers that 1% will be cut drastically down to LESS than 1%. If LIFE members can each only fulfill the minimum requirement, and have 1 subscription customer at $50 , then the money accessible to 1% will be available to ONLY 0 .66 % of members, or just over 1/2 of 1%.

Now if by some crazy chance LIFE turned out to be an internal consumption model (I know that could never happen with the quality of the training materials and the power of the dream) then the 8% Leadership Bonus would only go to a maximum of 0.33% of everyone involved.

The question then is this, in addition to the 20.6% of compensation dollars from the previous table, we can add an additional $8 or another 11.5% of compensation dollars so that 32.1% of all compensation dollars are going to 1% (OR LESS) of the entire field of LIFE members.

Is this what you meant Orrin when you wrote, “LIFE isn’t a plan to get a couple of people wealthy with everyone else trying really hard.”?

Because honestly, I do not understand what you meant by this. From my intellectually impaired standpoint, it appears as if it is in fact just that, a plan to get a couple of people wealthy with everyone else just trying real hard.

Furthermore, there is an additional 8.5%, $8.50 or 12.2% of total compensation dollars, that are made available through the Depth Bonus Program. And I won’t bother pointing out the math on this one for illustration purposes because yes, it is held for less than 1% again. So the total amount held for less than 1% of everyone involved is an ASTOUNDING 44.3% of all available compensation dollars. Now I may be an idiot, but doesn’t this leave only 55.7% of compensation dollars to be shared between 99% of the rest of the members? I am sorry, but I will have to call B.S. on your original statement.

You then wrote:

95% of the people means 95% of the members will receive a bonus check since the first level is 150 points) (No where do I say, nor did I ever intend to say, that the bottom 95% of the people receive the 70% of the revenue.

Understand that this is your biggest Red Herring argument. Where exactly did you come up with the number 95%? Can you honestly say that you know that 95% of everyone involved is going to get customers and qualify for a $7.50 check? Again, if you are going to use PFA (plucked from air, surely you must be plucking these figures from the air) accounting, why not just say 100%? It would really sound more impressive if you included everyone in the equation and didn’t leave out 5% of your members. Now I may not know or fully appreciate the quality of your materials, but to assume that 95% of everyone involved will generate customers and qualify for commissions is a stretch of anyone’s imagination. If that were true, then I am sure you would be setting the new industry standard, and CEOs worldwide will be flocking to you to find out the secrets of your success.

You then wrote, ‘Never before has a plan shared so much with so many, but that is how LIFE TEAM is going to reach 1 million people – by rewarding everyone who does the work based upon results.’

Now honestly Orrin, you cannot expect me to buy into this notion do you? I can point out no less than a dozen companies right off the top of my head that share so much more with so many than the LIFE compensation plan does. You may be paying out 70%, but sharing it, hahahaha, perhaps you need to learn what the word ‘sharing’ really means. Because placing more money into your plan than most companies (70%) does not necessarily mean that it is shared by so many. As a matter of fact, there are many plans that pay way less than 70% but have a much better success ratio. Your basic break even ratio is 21:1, and there are so many, plans that beat that ratio by 2, 3,4, and even 5 times. Look at Visalus, Xyngular, RevvNrg, Xooma Worldwide, Nuriche, etc. etc., all of these have way better ratios than the LIFE plan does. Again, please do not exaggerate, or spin the merits of your plan. A 70% payout is one thing, but ALLOCATION is what matters.

Then you wrote:

The LIFE compensation plan is a game changer and one of the key planks in helping the TEAM reach 1 million people. The rewards for building communities and hitting new brackets is second to none with all subscription dollars to points being 1:1. In other words, 100 dollars of subscription volume equals 100 points.

Almost every new company is using a 1:1 ratio, is this something special? And exactly how is this compensation plan second to none? A Stair-Step Breakaway plan Orrin, really? I expected more from you than an antiquated model that is a carbon copy of a plan (Amway) you so emphatically disagreed with. Don’t you know that Stair-Step Breakaway models have a tendency to encourage inventory loading? At least with inventory loading in Amway or Monavie, you have a consumable product that could eventually be used or sold on eBay. What are people going to do with all of their cds and books? Will eBay be overloaded with LIFE materials?

[Editor’s note: LIFE’s policies and procedures prohibits the sale of LIFE tools on eBay and other online auctions. MonaVie says the same thing, but that hasn’t stopped the flow of juice on eBay.]

This is going to be humorous. I know you would not want that to happen to those people you are trying to help now would you? A Stair-Step Breakaway has a tendency to pay those at the top more money, it’s the nature of the plan, it is hard to avoid. It’s obvious that the LIFE plan falls squarely into that category. Did you design it that way on purpose?

Additionally, we all know that your goal is to have 1 million people on your team you have been saying that for decades now. The only way that this can possibly happen would be to solidify the foundation of your group by bringing people into profit quicker and cheaper. Do you realize that you could push the same 70% through a single line forced matrix with global bonus pools all the way up and increase profitability at the bottom by 700%? The LIFE Plan in its current state is nothing more than the Amway plan reworked with a little extra money thrown into the body and a whole lot more thrown in at the top. I thought you disliked the Amway plan Orrin, but not only have you now copied it, but you have even made it even more profitable for the elite at the top. Could this be self serving? Inquiring minds would really like to know. So cut the stupid revisions on your blog, and belittling my capability to do math. It’s more than obvious, that perhaps you are the one with a math problem.

To conclude, I believe that you are in direct violation of the following LIFE policies Orrin, does the P.C. know about this? Your direct violations are noted here in bold: Deceptive Postings
Postings that are false, misleading, or deceptive are prohibited. This includes, but is not limited to, false or deceptive postings relating to the LIFE opportunity, LIFE’s products and services, and/or your biographical information and credentials. Professionalism
You must ensure that your postings are truthful and accurate. This requires that you fact check all material you post online. You should also carefully check your postings for spelling, punctuation, and grammatical errors. Use of offensive language is prohibited.

And possibly this one, if you did not report the Amthrax post to corpsupport. Responding to Negative Posts
Do not converse with one who places a negative post against you, other independent Members, or LIFE. Report negative posts to the Company at Responding to such negative posts often simply fuels a discussion with someone carrying a grudge that does not hold themselves to the same high standards as LIFE, and therefore damages the reputation and goodwill of LIFE.

So in closing Orrin, perhaps you should follow the LIFE Policy and Procedures and in doing so set a better example for your team. And by the way, don’t forget about that math class.

107 Comments leave one →
  1. Speak Your Truth permalink
    November 12, 2011 12:34 pm

    Now that is Excellence… on the analysis!!! I really appreciate this!

    Now, Dear team/ LIE..f..ers…either..WAKE UP.. or Stop lying to people. Quit repeating and using the ‘stop thinking techniques’ can no longer claim ignorance. And for those..Orrin, that are lying..Shame on You for pillaging people’s finances, to satisfy your sickness of greed. Brent was right.. the Truth, Motive, and their True (Greedy) Character show up in the unarguable numbers…it just keeps finding them out!…When Promising (lying) to the entire masses that they will have passive,residual, b-type, willable, pipeline..etc. etc…. and Financial Freedom..all the while singing to their idol $$… all the way to their 7/PC… Banks; with their ill-gotten gains!

    Betcha…Orrin is pacing now…wondering how he will spin this one which will only compound the lies ..LOL

  2. Mike Collins permalink
    November 12, 2011 12:37 pm

    Orrin said: “Figures Don’t Lie — But Liars Sure Can Figure”

    Hey Liar!….I mean Orrin…….GO FIGURE……..

  3. Freedomhaha permalink
    November 12, 2011 1:13 pm

    All they are doing is setting people up to fail. I am glad someone took a math class and didnt go to University of TEAM.

  4. Speak Your Truth permalink
    November 12, 2011 1:17 pm

    Mike~ I love your conviction to the truth! Thanks. 🙂

    Thanks for the laughs Freedomhaha and weblieved..Amen!

  5. brent hansen permalink
    November 12, 2011 5:01 pm

    Even more damning is the Leadership and Depth bonuses. To briefly touch on those think about the following.

    There is an additional 8% tucked away for anyone reaching Coordinator which requires 15,000 volume, or if your top person breaks away from you, it would be 15,000 with 6,000 outside.

    Based on the above table and setup, each person generating 150 volume with 100 coming from customers, it would require 1000 distributors, each generating 150 per month for you to earn this 8%. Or counting customers, a total of 3,000 people each at $50 a month.

    So basically this extra 8% is reserved for 1 out of 1,000 or .001 of all Life distributors. Isn’t that a fantastic deal? Best case scenario, put in 1,000 people with 70% or 700 losing money each month, and Life will call you a Coordinator and give you a leadership bonus for helping a minimum of 70% of your organization lose money each month.

    Better yet, how about the depth bonus which is reserved for the elite Senior Coordinators who only have to have 2111 people in their organization losing money in order for them to grab their piece of that action. It takes 3017 people doing $150 a month for you to earn a depth bonus, with 70% or 2116 always operating in the red.

    If you can create that kind of a group, with those minimum losses, and not feel like a total crook while doing it, welcome to Life!

  6. brent hansen permalink
    November 12, 2011 5:18 pm

    Wow, I need to correct myself here. My phone rang 3 times while typing this up, and I made some big errors with my decimal points.

    Following the table above it would take 100 (not 1000, big difference) for you to reach Coordinator status. So this 8% is reserved for .01%, I stand corrected. With Customers a total of 300 people each spending $50 a month. From the 100 who each generate $150 in volume, 70 of those people will lose money each month.

    For depth bonuses, Senior Coordinators would need to have 317 people each generating $150 with 211 losing money each month.

    Same ratios different numbers, but the percentage of those losing remains the same. The Leadership Bonus and Depth Bonus are dollars that could be used to bring people into profit much quicker. Instead, the Leadership bonus is reserved for .01% of all distributors and the Depth Bonus, which is another 8.5% is reserved for 1 out of 317 or .0033.

    Interesting thought how there is another 16.5% of total volume reserved for less than 1% of all distributors while at the bottom levels, where close to 95% of all distributors will always be able to earn from, can only access around 15%.

    Sorry about my errors.

  7. brent hansen permalink
    November 12, 2011 5:25 pm

    webelieved, you are actually right on the money, gambling does have better odds indeed, by far.

    Click to access WheresTheHarm.pdf

  8. Vogel permalink
    November 12, 2011 6:06 pm

    Free buffet and watery cocktails at the casino too. A no brainer!

  9. Hershall Sweet permalink
    November 13, 2011 7:08 am

    Brent: If you can create that kind of a group, with those minimum losses, and not feel like a total crook while doing it, welcome to Life!

    I think that’s the look I saw on round table faces this summer. The look was a stressed out one. One that suggested they knew too much and were trapped by the information.

    webelieved: especially when you realize the top 7 have tons of mid level leaders betting the farm and doing the work…….spending all their time and money for those 7 to rake it all in……

    From my understanding, there was a lot of round table recognition in a couple of teams this fall. The Matises went PC and the existing Policy Council members went triple or quad. How did they do it? The guys at the bottom went Power Player with the promises of the L.I.F.E. business and sold a bunch of tickets and systems to people who weren’t making money. The PC and RT couples came and whipped up the hype at the monthly seminars and the leaders brought in the extra people. You’re right on the money!

    The promise is that if you follow the duplicatable system you will succeed. This is absolutely true. But what is the cost? You will be getting people to buy stuff they normally would never spend their money on. They have to follow the same plan exactly and everyone else who starts must follow it completely or else you’re stealing.
    The fact is that most people will not duplicate the pattern. The majority will run out of cash before they see the light and you’ll have to replace them. That’s why the numbers can never work out as well as the math here suggests.

    The people who do the work and spend the time figuring out this scheme get paid way more than they need to make for the work that they do. They praise God for their success and thank Him for bringing the opportunity to them. They suggest that we be the people that pass it on as a blessing to others.

    The whole thing is very seductive. In a Dan Hawkins recording he asked that if it worked for him and he was being scammed – did that mean he was the scammer now? He didn’t see that the answer is yes he was.

  10. brent hansen permalink
    November 13, 2011 7:12 am

    Amazing outlook Hershall, I couldn’t have said it better myself. I call all of these circumstances surrounding MLM the ‘mitigating’ factors. You are correct in citing these mitigating factors, which in all reality, will destroy the pure and perfect maximum outcome of this plan to a mere 10% of its full potential. Best case scenario 70% lose money, actual scenario with mitigating factors, 96% plus lose money. Pure and simple.

  11. November 13, 2011 8:06 am

    I love Brent’s remark “If you can create that kind of a group, with those minimum losses, and not feel like a total crook while doing it, welcome to Life!”.

    People are trying to earn money while knowing the others will take a loss, often from people who are already experiencing financial problems! The played pretension that they so much care for each other! Disgusting!

    Forgive me my (blessed) MLM-ignorance (maybe it is posted on the blog somewhere else and I missed it), but next to the 50 dollars you have to pay (I know the calculation is based on a simplified example) are you obliged to buy the tools as well in this new Life “opportunity”? Or, am I mixing up different tactics from different MLM-scams?

    If the buying of tools is included, don’t you have to pay way more than the 50 dollars each month, and is the financial situation even more worse than the ideal picture give here?

    I am just asking because the woman I know who is in the MLM business, is convinced that she is going to make it to the top, and will become “a speaker” (btw what does that mean?). She is always calling or being called, and it is always important; however, she just can buy the groceries from the money she earns.

  12. brent hansen permalink
    November 13, 2011 9:43 am


    Again, you are right on when you ask about additional tools, tickets, etc. Understand this however, the basic formula for any MLM compensation plan is as congruent with $50 each as it would be with $500. The basic ratios and formulas are consistent throughout the plan regardless of the personal volume. You could run the ratio at each person spending $500 a month, and the amount of people earning, and allocation of dollars remains the same.

    Not only can your friend not buy groceries from her earnings, but there is a 96% chance that she cannot even cover the cost of her $50 monthly subscription. Understand that the above table is written with a maximum mathematical potential, but that the true Life compensation plan is written with a 21 to 1 break even ratio. With a 21 to 1 ratio, only 4.6% of those involved can earn $50, which would cover the cost of their personal subscription.

    Therefore the viability of any plan lies in the question of internal consumption, or in the ability one has to successfully market the product to an end user who is not part of the compensation structure. If the product is marketable, then even though the allocation of dollars is horrible at best, one could break even merely by retailing a product.

    That is where the question lies, do you believe that Life materials are a value for a end user outside of the Life compensation plan? Based on the Team track record I would submit a resounding HELL NO! Just as a $40 bottle of juice is not a value for an end user (and we have data to back this up), neither would a $50 subscription. Of course, this is a matter of opinion, and only time will expose the real data.

  13. brent hansen permalink
    November 15, 2011 8:11 pm

    Apparently Mr. Woodward has seen the analysis done by one of the readers on Amthrax. I just peeked at his blog and noticed a revision of the original post. Maybe our writer will have further comments on this revision???

    “Instead, it’s a plan where 70% of the revenue is paid out to 95% of the people, (I have to explain this further for the intellectually slow critics ) (70% of revenue means 70% of the total PV revenue; 95% of the people means 95% of the members will receive a bonus check since the first level is 150 points) (No where do I say, nor did I ever intend to say, that the bottom 95% of the people receive the 70% of the revenue so please take a remedial reading course before attempting to do your poor math ) “

    Does anyone have a clue exactly what Orrin is saying here?? Sounds like cdspeak to me. Talked himself right into a circle here, and by the way, is it against Life policy to read this blog, or only to comment on this blog? There are so many rules and regulations, I cannot remember.

  14. brent hansen permalink
    November 15, 2011 8:16 pm

    By the way, for those of you who might want to see the revision with the smiley faces, here is the link, scroll down to November 4. Don’t comment though, its against Amthrax Policy and Procedures. No FREE SPEECH allowed here!

  15. not signed up yet permalink
    November 15, 2011 9:09 pm

    Par for the course, sauce for the goose…this comp plan is so confusing I don’t get how lifers can even begin to explain it. I give it 3 or 4 years before we see another re branding and a new comp plan because people will start to figure it out.

  16. Speak Your Truth permalink
    November 15, 2011 9:50 pm

    Doesn’t sound like Orrin likes that He even feels he has to result to insults..I am not sure what leadership principle he is using here, or what part of conflict resolution or How to Win Friends?

    I will have to check John Maxwell’s or re- listen to Pastor Dickie’s conflict resolution work……but I thought he got over that when he quit blogging as Qrush?…You know after he grew up and had a learning moment about how it was effecting his ‘attitude’; he said he started taking things professionally,… not personally… guess not. Attitude is Everything! 🙂

    Agreed, of course it is…hmm…So then is he saying that there is more revenue they are NOT sharing?… 70% of the revenue means 70% (PV) revenue…must be a difference between ‘revenue’ and ‘pv revenue.’

  17. November 15, 2011 9:56 pm

    @brent – Call me “intellectually slow” but I didn’t quite get Orrin’s response either 🙂

    It’s against LIFE policy to comment on negative websites. Since Orrin commented on his own in response to this post, he’s technically in the clear.

  18. switch permalink
    November 16, 2011 7:14 am

    I couldn’t agree more, webelieved.

    *Please note readers, take a look at what happens when the leaders don’t get their way…..that good ol’ bullying tactic comes into play.

    What was that one thing Pastor Dickie absolutely despises????….oh yeah…hypocrisy.

  19. No Team For Me permalink
    November 16, 2011 8:35 am

    Webelieved & Switch – I noticed that too. This is how a leader speaks? Could you imagine a true leader speaking this way – John Maxwell, etc?

    If said by anyone else, Orrin would be using this as an example of how terrible some people are at communication. Yet, because he is King in his own little world, it is okay.

    He truly has become worse than Dexter ever was – special favors for the selected few, lying to the masses about the tool money, he even tells stories about his youth in which he is the hero just like Dex.

    History repeats itself 🙂

  20. switch permalink
    November 16, 2011 8:51 am

    No kidding, right?

    The man is a dead-giveaway. When setting his own P&P’s, he has the cojones to actually tell his followers not to participate in ANY negative talk, sites, or atmosphere and yet he spews this????

    A shit load of scales and a forked tongue would fit him well.

  21. November 16, 2011 9:17 am

    “Instead, it’s a plan where 70% of the revenue is paid out to 95% of the people, (I have to explain this further for the intellectually slow critics ) (70% of revenue means 70% of the total PV revenue; 95% of the people means 95% of the members will receive a bonus check since the first level is 150 points) (No where do I say, nor did I ever intend to say, that the bottom 95% of the people receive the 70% of the revenue so please take a remedial reading course before attempting to do your poor math ) “


    What is the difference between Revenue and PV Revenue?
    What is the difference between people and members?
    Are there people below 150 points as well?

    What does he mean with “No where do I say, nor did I ever intend to say, that the bottom 95% of the people receive the 70% of the revenue so please take a remedial reading course before attempting to do your poor math”?


    Maybe my mind is not as fast as Orrin’s, and do I need to buy his book with “a remedial reading course before attempting to do poor math” ;). Even on his blog he is brainwashing the readers. “You guys are really stupid if you do not understand my math”.

    What a small passive-aggressive personality!! See this link, I suppose you guys will recognize some characteristics

  22. Speak Your Truth permalink
    November 16, 2011 10:28 am


    I think he is intending to do his usual spinning and trying to create confusion, it is his greatest strength along with being a master manipulator. He is so notorious for this and everyone knows it.

    You would think he could just be a clear communicator, rather than a poor one, perhaps he should handle this profesionally. He should get his yes-man Brady to do the explaining since he is way better slick talker and smarter; but then it wouldn’t look to good for those investors would it if it was too clear.. Shouldn’t he want everyone that is going to spend money for Life to understand their own business comp plan? An honest person certainly would want all those ‘investors’ who are giving up their hard earned dollars for nothing to speak of in return according to his own comp plan.. They need to understand exactly what their odds are of making it to ‘financial freedom’, wealth and riches beyond their wildest dreams , rather than call the people in the LIEf program.. ‘stupid’? Oh that is not who he is calling

    That is what he is ultimately saying to the LIEfERS…although I know he is pissed that the truth has came out about the odds it obviously isn’t how he wanted it told so clearly by the anaylsis…lol…Aren’t the ones that have the most at stake, throwing their money at this need to understand the comp plan? How many of them are asking the same questions and remain confused…all of them!

    He just keeps revealing his true character all the time. He is no doubt a man of mixed messages!

  23. Speak Your Truth permalink
    November 16, 2011 12:05 pm

    One last thing Orrin whines about people attacking the ‘messenger’ and not the ‘message’.. and yet it is clear that is exactly what he is doing here. The hypocrisy is astounding…the double standards…standard… when it comes to anything to do with him…it simply doesn’t apply to him in his fleck little world between he and himself; where he obviously believes he is intellectually superior….problem is the world doesn’t see him the same way that he has deluded himself to believe.

  24. November 16, 2011 12:28 pm


    Sadly enough a lot of people/followers still DO believe him and his false messages, and trick new prospects into the system.

    This blog must really hitting MLM- scams hard. I hope the influx of new prospects to all MLM-scams will stop because people start to ask the right questions and expect CLEAR answers (on paper) BEFORE they even consider entering an organization.

  25. Freedomhaha permalink
    November 16, 2011 12:28 pm

    I don’t know how anyone can feel good about building a group and subjecting other people to those odds. Can more people please hear the truth. Those that are regular contributors know that your blog is working. After showing a few of my other teammates they have left the biz. Oh, and my once strong taproot is at 0 since the launch of LIeF. People aren’t as dumb as they look Orrin, and the internet will ironically be the death of your business. The information age cuts both ways.

  26. November 16, 2011 12:28 pm

    I’ve updated the post with a rebuttal by the reader who submitted this analysis of the LIFE compensation plan.

  27. Freedomhaha permalink
    November 16, 2011 12:40 pm

    @BrentHansen- Awesome work!

  28. Speak Your Truth permalink
    November 16, 2011 12:54 pm


    I believe you are right about there are still quite a few believing and probably daily onsie.twosie coming in…but then comes Freedomhaha….with music to our ears! 🙂

    Thanks to you, Freedomhaha, Amthrax, the anaylizer, and all of you who contribute…it is making a difference…in that people are being able to see through the deceptive bullsh*t and are able to make better informed decisions…all by themselves! 🙂

  29. Speak Your Truth permalink
    November 16, 2011 1:35 pm

    On the UPDATE!!!! Very, very telling.. can’t say I feel an ounce of bad for the guy, he gets what he has coming…..What a poor example you are.. Oh and breaching your own P&P pretty sure all of us here would.. VOTE YOU OUT.. and redistribute your team and money; like you did to all the leaders without cause other than greed, maybe now you can pay back all the money you stole from them; and the other 99% see right through you and would love to hold you accountable but we know that nice little Hilter tyranny, designed P&P won’t let them, but you can bet they are thinking it…

    So perhaps there is a way for the 99% to ‘share’ in ‘YOUR’ wealth and ‘b-business, after all? NO?..Not a chance?…Didn’t think so; hope they wake up! Can’t blame anyone but yourself. And WOW… you just plagerized the Amway pay plan with a small tweek..that ‘illegal pyramid scheme’….with ‘hoplessly overpriced products’.. and called it something miraculous..shame on you.

    Must suck to be YOU.

  30. November 16, 2011 1:43 pm

    With my contributions as an outsider, I hope that people start to learn to think independently and do not accepted vague, blurred answers on their questions. That’s why I am asking the “stupid” questions. I am certain that others like me will have the same questions, but are maybe blaming themselves (already) for not understanding it. I think of myself as intelligent, and still I have a hard time to understand the language, the calculations and the mind games. Maybe you need to have lived as a MLM-“member” to understand it completely, but thanks to the contributors of this site I was spared for that mistake.

    Btw I love the reaction of the reader. And freedomhaha, good for you to tell your teammates about this blog. And Brent, thanks for sharing your story. You and all other ex-members, who are trying to warn people, are going to make a difference.

    And all the “respectable” MLM-leaders know that; and apparently, there is nothing they can do about it! Ha, ha!

  31. Speak Your Truth permalink
    November 16, 2011 1:49 pm

    Me~ Amen!

    BTW..updater… ‘analyzer’….that is what I call EXCELLENT! 🙂

  32. Speak Your Truth permalink
    November 16, 2011 2:40 pm

    Did you also copy what you despised;..the ‘jay factor’..and create the pay plan TOP heavy.. to keep for youself….Orrin? Sure looks that way. Oh boy, this isn’t looking too good for you.. Is it? You are always touting.. ‘data’ from others…I guess be careful what you ask for.

    At least by the ‘prospects’ having this kind of ‘data’ they will be able to see and make their own informed judgements on whether this would be viable for them, that is what we all want isn’t it to ‘lead people to the truth’…

    Them pesky little facts, just keep showing up.

  33. CGC permalink
    November 16, 2011 3:29 pm

    Best unintentionally ironic comment on Orrin’s blog:

    “This is very exciting Orrin… This will make it much easier to promote and share with hungry-for-change folks, if they’re not hungry, this should take care of that… I’m glad to be part of this great organization. God bless.”

    Yep, if they’re not hungry now, they will be after throwing money away on TEAM!

    I find it fun to post just slightly negative or questioning comments, just to see them disappear. The man needs to live in a totally artificial environment populated with sycophantic dummies, and these Orrin-groupies can’t be exposed to dangerous ideas.

  34. Mike Collins permalink
    November 16, 2011 7:06 pm

    charlatan – a flamboyant deceiver; one who attracts customers with tricks or jokes

    noun fraud, cheat, fake, sham, pretender, quack, con man (informal), impostor, fraudster, swindler, mountebank, grifter (slang, chiefly U.S. & Canad.), phoney or phony

    Does this describe you Orrin?????? I only ask because either A. you need a math class like the author of your latest beat down suggests or B. you understand ther math exactly for what it is which would make you a ____________ (fill in the blank)

  35. Vogel permalink
    November 16, 2011 7:37 pm

    Definition of MOUNTEBANK

    1: a person who sells quack medicines from a platform
    2: a boastful unscrupulous pretender : charlatan

  36. brent hansen permalink
    November 16, 2011 10:19 pm

    Interesting how even hyperbole and rhetoric cannot make the untrue become true. This truly cannot be right can it? Almost 1/2 of all compensation dollars going to less than 1% of those involved, is this legal?

    Now I am beginning to understand Dr. Taylor’s article emphasizing how a non-product ponzi scheme actually pays better than an MLM. In his research, he has found that 11.81% of those who pay into a ponzi scheme actually realize a profitable return.

    Astonishing how an illegal pyramid can actually have more people in profit than a legal one.

  37. Anonymous Aussie permalink
    November 16, 2011 11:53 pm

    Fantastic analysis! It certainly demonstrates the reality of the situation. The manner on which money is dispersed is precisely what matters yet fortunately for Orrin, it’s those buying into the phantom opportunity who appear to be the only ones “intellectually slow” on the concept!

  38. switch permalink
    November 17, 2011 5:55 am

    definition of Plagiarize

    to steal and pass off (the ideas or words of another) as one’s own : use (another’s production) without crediting the source

  39. November 17, 2011 6:15 am

    “When the fox preaches, look to your geese.”

    German proverb: The fox has but one agenda which is to eat the geese. The proverb states that if you let your guard down then Mr. Fox will do what comes naturally, so stay alert.

  40. humiliated permalink
    November 17, 2011 6:21 am

    If anyone is doubting the impact this blog is having on TEAM and perhaps even the MLM industry as a whole, I think Freedomhaha’s words say it all “After showing a few of my other teammates they have left the biz”.

    Let’s re-work that saying STP to STB! SHOW THE BLOG!

    The analysis is brilliant ! Sorry, Orrin but these “intellectually slow critics” are gonna shut your slimy, deceitful, “larcenogenic” (just made that word up…I like the way it rhymes with carcinogenic), sociopathic ass down.

  41. November 17, 2011 6:30 am

    He webelieved,

    Apparently you have proof of this plagiarism! Maybe it is time to expose this lie as well! Credit and notify the real authors how their work is “used and sold” by these crooks.

    I suppose they cannot sue you for publishing it, when you refer to the real author. Another angle to expose the “honorable” leaders.

  42. Speak Your Truth permalink
    November 17, 2011 6:42 am

    The truth is “hate speech” only to those who have something to hide.–Michael Rivero

    The search for truth implies a duty. One must not conceal any part of what one has recognized to be true. –Albert Einstein

    Rather than love, than money, than fame, give me truth. –Thoreau

    Peace if possible, truth at all costs.– Martin Luther

    In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act. –George Orwell

    When in doubt, tell the truth. –Mark Twain

    Always tell the truth. That way you don’t have to remember what you said.–Mark Twain

    It matters enormously if I alienate anyone from the truth. –CS Lewis

    Honesty consists of the unwillingness to lie to others; maturity, which is equally hard to attain, consists of the unwillingness to lie to oneself.–Sydney J. Harris

    Honesty has a beautiful and refreshing simplicity about it. No ulterior motives. No hidden meanings. An absence of hypocrisy, duplicity, political games, and verbal superficiality. As honesty and real integrity characterize our lives, there will be no need to manipulate others.–Chuck Swindoll

    All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident. –Arthur Schopenhauer

  43. brent hansen permalink
    November 17, 2011 7:20 am

    Webelieved, I gave you my two cents about that on the other thread. True principles are taught on the cds, they just simply do not apply in this arena.

  44. November 17, 2011 7:21 am


    Referencing to others work is something different than plagiarism. The first is allowed, the latter is not.

    However, I am not sure if it is legal to discuss the content of the book on a CD, even with a reference made to the real author, and to make money out of it. I assume that copyright protection also includes verbal repeating of the content of the book (An artist needs to pay the original writer/performer the right to use his lyrics, because the artist’s goal is obvious; he wants to make money).

    So, if my assumptions are right the questions should be: Do authors know that their books are being used and sold this way and do they get paid by the MLM tool company for it. Easy to find out, I assume. Send CD’s to the real writers, and tell them how much money the company is making of it.

    Maybe this is also a big reason the CD’s are not allowed to be sold in public by the members.

  45. Speak Your Truth permalink
    November 17, 2011 7:44 am


    I love it~..STB! Thanks for another laugh out loud experience! 🙂

  46. November 17, 2011 9:04 am

    Maybe Amthrax should make a separate page for this subject to be able to make a list with the titles of the CD’s and the referring to the writers of the general books without giving anything away of the content because the MLM tool company does not allow that.

    1. If writers are not paid, they maybe want to do something about that as well.
    2. If writers notice that their books and names are being used in a twisted way on CD-s to support the MLM-scam, they maybe willing to do something about it.
    3. Prospects will see they the ideas are not invented by these gurus, whose advise is to avoid higher education, but just by professionals who have been to college and have experience in a specific field for many years.
    4. And for you who have read the real book and can compare it with the CD MLM-interpretation of it: share the discrepancy between the two versions.

    In a way what is a MLM-tool company if not even the tools are owned by the company? Is a MLM-tool company not just a triple scam by selling overpriced products (1), through abusing (2) so-called business owners, who need to be motivated by selling CD’s with stolen intellectual property (3)?

    The MLM-hole gets darker and deeper…………pfffff.

  47. Paul permalink
    November 18, 2011 3:43 pm

    Hello, I have been to three team meetings,one large event & two home meetings.I walked away with a very sour taste about the team exp.They talked about what great deal this is buying cd’s & books I am going to make a lot of money. The way I see it I’d be my own best customer And good old Orrin would be making all of the money. personally I don’t like being told how to dress (cheap wallmart dress shirts & 2.00 ties) most of all I don’t like being told how to think! My best friend is involved with this bunch I told him it looked like a scam and good old Orrin was bad news He said I should not talk about Orrin like that (RED Flags went up)Who is this guy God? Just my opinion looks like a cult to me,whats next for these folks selling CD’s on the street corners for the cause?I am not trying to degrade anybody,I hope the team folks did’nt laugh at Youg sung Moons followers(The Moonies) because from an outsiders prospective thats exatly what this business looks like, Bye for now.

  48. Brent Hansen permalink
    November 18, 2011 4:20 pm

    Congratulations Paul you have an above average I.Q. Now, spread the word.

  49. No Team For Me permalink
    November 19, 2011 9:09 am

    And are they even showing MonaVie at all? I don’t think Dallin would be too pleased to find out Team is not really showing MonaVie in their plan.

  50. Paul permalink
    November 19, 2011 7:09 pm

    Hello Webelieved, To be honest I have a little cult experience.At one time one of my adult children had got invoved with one,they picked up on her vunerability. Although she is very smart (one of the smartest minds in the country) she lacked street smarts.In short what a cult does is try to do is cut off all contact with people who really cares about them(and yes it was about money)Keep in mind Webelievd I said (in short) It took about a year for this situation to play out and to be honest I’m not one of the smartest people in the country as you can tell by my grammer and spelling. This probably worked to my advantage.One of my friends asked me if I knew what I was going up against(the devil a wiccan preist)I asked him who’s more powerfull our God or the devil? Just from a laymans prospective I think that covers the 2 main F’s Faith and family.And yes I am spiritual I am ok with myself I don’t need to books and CD’s from the guy with the big yacht to make me a better person. Webelieved, I got the whole presentation exactly as you described this whole process took about three months the last straw was they tried to ram this stuff down my throat(they brought in a guy I had never met for the hard sell) Also when I seamed interested they wanted my credit card numbers ssn. They wanted me to list contact numbers of people I could get in to this money making venture.(the whole process was very suttle)Oh yes getting back to the cult situation I became friends with these folks.(I wanted to keep a close eye on my daughter) I could see she was fighting a losing battle.I became this cults worst nightmare ( I was like a computer virus in their organization) her contact with us during that period was her only sence of normalcy. One day she called and said she wanted to home I sense that day was coming . I already had a support network in place(the police where on our side) so we called them to let them know that we were on our way.The police knew about this guy.He was just inside the law, the police were glad to see us rock this guys world(what we did that day was just inside the law also.) Webelieved, I think we grow wiser & stronger with these type of experiences (God never give us more than we can handle if we ask for Gods help we had better bring our pick & shovel !!)Take care for know Best Regards.

  51. Paul permalink
    November 21, 2011 4:32 pm

    Hello all: I have no interest in spending one penny on team-life. It’s very obvious to me what this so called buisiness is all about.When I went to the big meeting what I seen personally in the first timers was desperation (how sad) worse than a casino I’m not into that eathier. How true about the search engines I was a little pressed at first to find any thing negative about team-life. That in it’s self is a bad sign, The same goes or youtube. I was hard pressed to find this blog also glad I did !!

  52. humiliated permalink
    November 22, 2011 5:32 am

    And another one bites the dust Orrin! Yep, ya lost Paul…and this blog is going to help you lose even more “Pauls”! I LOVE it! Welcome Paul! Good to know that my friends here helped you to recognize what you already suspected.

  53. Used to be "all-in" permalink
    December 19, 2011 4:08 pm

    I read a comical blog entry from Neal Ruffner’s blog entry on November 21 discussing the director’s call that night where he says that Orrin’s goal for the LIEF company is to do over $100 million of sales in the first fiscal year. Neal then makes various statements discussing how over $70 million will go back to the distributors and extoling the virtues of have a 70% profit margin for those on the team hahaha…and nooo one has ever addressed allocation, have they? Let’s see, if 50%+ of that many goes back to the top 5% in the network, how much do you think the 7 PC members are going to line their pockets with? That sure is a lot of customer losses!! And wow, that sure means that the team office staff and the cost of producing the CD’s sure is expensive isn’t it? I mean $30 million to run the team? Where does all of that money go? I have some ideas…

  54. Finally permalink
    December 19, 2011 6:00 pm

    They can claim any goal they want and talk about whatever numbers they want……….The thing Neal and the other lemmings do not understand is no one EVER sees the real number but Orrin. Of course he can make that claim right now, they have one month under their belt. Let us just see where they are in a year. It is sad how these Lemming’s take Orrin’s word as gospel when he has been caught in soooooooo many lies by so many people……..And there is a bunch of proof out there, oh yes Orrin, some have predicted what was going to happen and made copies of everything……. I know a few ex teamer’s that have covered their butt’s. The thing is, Orrin is like the politicians he so often criticizes, he will tell people whatever they need to hear to keep them supporting him. I am amazed at the lack of ability for people, like Neal, that would publicly make these claims yet there will never be on shred of proof to back up their claims. Hey PC, produce some 1099’s that are not faked to prove your income and then get some of the folks that didn’t file bankruptcy to do the same. Then maybe their claims will have some credibility. In fact let Neal produce his proof of income. He is so excited about working for a company that pays so well he should have no problem proving it..should he….LOL Never happen because then he would lose all the credibility he now has with his phantom income……….the same with his up line…………fake Diamonds that got others to go into debt so they could go to Hawaii………Do they realize how foolish they look? None of their secrets are secrets any longer. They burned too many and there is no cross lining on here. I know so much, and it has all been proven, about that team and no one is making any real money. Martins are the only ones that have been job optional recently in their group and that is after many years in the business, And from what I hear his wife is working for amy marks to make extra money. Wouldn’t that be something……….

  55. das permalink
    December 19, 2011 6:26 pm

    I wonder how the 2-5 year plan is working out for Neal. Is he making $1000 a day too like Orrin claims a new round table member is making? I remember Neal going triple power player 6 or 7 years ago. How long has Neal been chasing his(Orrin’s) dream?

  56. No Team For Me permalink
    December 19, 2011 8:31 pm

    Does anyone know if TEAM tools are included in the Life bonuses. I could be wrong, but my understanding is that the LIFE series of tools are in addition to the TEAM basic set of tools. The LIFE series teaches principles based on the 8’F’s Family, Finances, Faith, etc. But that is a separate set. The “TEAM” tools teach the usual ‘how to build a community’ stuff ie. building depth, power player, follow up, showing the plan, etc.

    Just like they used to have the basic set, power player set, LLR set, and All Grace set. My understanding is that the first 2 sets are considered actual “Team” tools and therefore no bonuses are paid to members of LIFE unless they qualify as RT, PC etc. If that’s true, then the usual kingpins are still making the same money, they are just sharing a sampling of the overflow products with the minions.

    It’s my understanding that only tools branded as actual “LIFE” tools are the ones paying the bonuses. Does anyone know for sure?

  57. Used to be "all-in" permalink
    December 20, 2011 2:27 am

    NTFM – That is my understanding as well

  58. brent hansen permalink
    December 20, 2011 5:08 am


    How about a gut check here. Let’s assume that they actually do $100,000,000 first year. What would the best case scenario look like? The above scenario that was created by one of the Amthrax leaders is written assuming that everyone had 2 subscribing customers who were not earning from the compensation plan. What would the best case scenario look like, and what would the worst case scenario look like? Here you go.

    One hundred million dollars in volume divided by $1800 (each person at $50 and 2 customers each @ $50) = 55,555 total subscribers. Now we all know it will be more like less than half that doing 3 times the volume each, but lets keep this best case.

    Out of 55,555 subscribers less than 1% or 555 will share in approximately 28.5% of all compensation dollars for $19,995,000 for an across the board average of $35,945.00 each per annum.

    Out of 55,555 subscribers 2,777 will be sharing in approximately 52.85% of the regular compensation or $26,420,000, for an across the board average of $9,513.00 per annum.

    Out of 55,555 subscribers 52,777 will share in 47.15% of the regular compensation or $23,575.000, for an across the board average of $446.69 per year. Even with 2 customers each, 52,777 members are operating at a net loss of -$153.51 per year. And incidentally, that is only on their $50 subscription. No meals, miles, opens, babysitters, BDS, and majors included.

    Now if all of the subscriptions were merely ‘internal consumption’ like 99.9% of all other MLMs out there here is a more accurate picture.

    One hundred million dollars divided by $50 each per month would require 166,666 members instead of 55,555.

    Out of 166,666 subscribers less than 1% or 1,666 would be sharing in the $19,995,000 for an across the board average of $12,001.00 per annum.

    Out of 166,666 subscribers 8,333 would share in 52.85% of regular compensation or $26,420,000, for an across the board average of $3170.00 per annum.

    Out of 166,666 subscribers, 158,332 will share in 47.15% of the regular compensation dollars or $23,575,000, for an across the board average of $148.89 per annum for a net loss on their own subscription of -$451.51 per year. Not including meals, miles, opens, babysitters, BDS or majors.

    So what percentage of compensation dollars go where? If 70% or $70,000,000 is 100% payout then the 20% going to the top less than 1% is 28.5% of all compensation dollars.
    In the body of the plan lies 50% of total volume but there is a 52.85% / 47.15% split approximately 5 to 95. Therefore with leadership bonuses and everything in place around 67% of total compensation dollars are going to the top 5% of all members with around 33% going out to the masses.

    Ever wonder why you cannot make money in MLM? How is that for reality?

  59. brent hansen permalink
    December 20, 2011 5:29 am

    Since we are on the topic, lets get real with operating expense too. Lets assume the 166,666 people were all on the basic package of 8 cds and a book (not sure what the basic package consists of). How much could it really cost. I looked up cd duplication online about a year ago and prices ranged from .10 cents for a simple sleeve to .50 cents for a four panel cover with hard case.

    For this example, lets give them the benefit of doubt and assume they are paying top dollar for all of the cds or .50 cents each. Lets also assume that the books cost around $5.00 each. That would bring the total manufacturing cost to $9.00 per month. The basic package pays out 70% or $35, so the total cost per package would be $44. That means that for every member there is $6 per month of generated profit (we know their cds aren’t .50 cents, but thats ok). In the $100,000,000 scenario a 166,666 would generate a gross profit of $999,996.00 per month or almost $12,000,000 per year. Where would that money go?

    Lets say they have 50 employees each getting paid $100,000 each per year or $5,000,000 total. Plus lets say they have an office with a ridiculous lease of $50,000 per month of $600,000. Maybe an in-house attorney at $500,000 per year (yeah right) and $25,000 a month for insurance and utilities. Possibly a few company cars that cost another $10,000 per month. And a $1,000,000 a year budget for travel expenses. Add all this up your only around $8,000,000, even with these ridiculous budgets in place.

    I think you are right UTBAI, I think you do know where all the extra money goes.

    Profit sharing is only profit sharing with total transparency, otherwise its a farce.

  60. Speak Your Truth permalink
    December 20, 2011 9:11 am

    Brent strikes again…LOL! The addiction to greed of these guys is soooo obvious!

  61. Keith permalink
    January 2, 2012 6:30 am

    As I read some of things posted here I can’t help but wonder what the motivation is. You constantly harp on how bad a person Orrin is and how bad L.I.F.E. and TEAM are as organizations. Since we live in America our freedom of speech is protected…as it should be. But in the interest of fair disclosure shouldn’t the positive things that Orrin has done also be listed? Like being the #7 Leadership Guru in the world and mentoring Chris Brady to #12 position and just recently being named the “Independent Association of Business Top Leadership Award” winner? Here are links to the two sites listing this information.

    Providing information to people is fine, but you should provide all the information so people can make informed decisions.

  62. January 2, 2012 9:10 am

    @Keith – Please read this article to learn more about the “awards” that Orrin received from these two websites:

    Please come back and comment when you’re done.

  63. 1MillionLIfES permalink
    January 2, 2012 9:28 am


    Orrin was NOT given an award for this leadership abilities (aka the “Independent Association of Business Top Leadership Award”). He was awarded the “2011 Top Leadership WEBSITE Award”. An award for a WEBSITE is a lot different than a leadership award.

    This is an example of how things work with TEAM. They word things in such a way that make it confusing and open for others to interpret incorrectly. I found that to happen quite frequently. And before you brush this aside and say at least he got an award, make sure you read the articles Amthrax linked to above for your reading pleasure.

  64. No Team For Me permalink
    January 2, 2012 10:24 am

    I think Keith is an excellent example of how blind everyone in TEAM is. They blindly accept whatever Orrin tells them as truth without doing any research to verify. And now, Orrin is accepting phony awards from a group of people who have been in trouble for fraud on many occasions. And yet, the TEAM sheep blindly think this phony award is somehow an honor.

    These people are trained to not watch tv, not listen to the radio, not do their own research. Just listen to the monthly CD’s, go to the monthly seminars, mentor with their upline and they will be told anything important in the world. Therefore, they have completely lost the ability to think on their own.

    I can’t believe how many TEAMsters have fallen for these phony awards and act as if Orrin just received a medal of honor.

  65. Speak Your Truth permalink
    January 2, 2012 11:19 am

    1MillionLIfES & No Team For Me~

    Excellent points!

    It is truly sad, dangerous, and effective how the ‘process’ of taking people’s autonomy; their self-directing freedom and especially moral independence and their criticial thinking away from them by simply pounding their misguided/manipulated belief system of “no negative”; which equates to the entire world outside of them; no news, no self- research, no t.v., we are your only source of ‘positive’ information, don’t listen to your pastor, husband, wife, parents anything that say or believe anything, truthful, realistic, logical… contrary to and their unrealistic, self-deceived controlled enviroment they create.

    We all agree it is very unfortunate that the truth and facts aren’t always ‘positive’, but should we all compromise fully disclosing the truth in the name of only if it is ‘positive’ and makes Orrin and the other PC ‘appear’ that they have done something ‘positive’?

    That is like saying Bernie Madoff destroyed many people’s lives, including the most devasting truth of his son and family but he gave a lot of money to charity? What people don’t see is whatever ‘positive’ they ‘think’ Orrin has done, the foundation is flawed and the core foundation is rotten and damaging. Any (positive) they appear to have given would be because they have taken (ill-gotten) gains from the masses and claimed they are doing so many positive things. But you have to ask: How is stealing, cheating, lying, gaming systems, knowing the comp plan is where Orrin & PC have always known the huge majority are guaranteed to lose, but have spread false hope and almost all but the top few, will end up finacially ruined or so far in debt it creates devasting effects and all the other negative truth that has been shared on here (facts to back it up) become something ‘positive’?

    To deny the truth because it is negative is not a ‘fair disclosure’; that is covering up and being a part of the destructive problem and not a part of the solution. That is how so many people get duped and end up a few years down the road and eventually have to face the truth and sadly find out that those of us here never came here with the ‘motivation’ to spread ‘negative’, it was to help others see the truth; in the hopes and prayers that others would not suffer the damages we all have.

  66. January 2, 2012 11:37 am

    Anyone care to comment on the IABUSA blog with a critical comment regarding the award?

    Clearly, the TEAM train is all aboard this post, trying to pump it up. I wonder if a comment that questions the legitimacy of the award will get moderated. The one that I posted is awaiting approval. Can others leave comments and see what happens?

  67. TruthSeeker permalink
    January 2, 2012 2:11 pm

    Yeah, I tried to comment. But I doubt my comment will never make it through moderation. This is a blog that I believe is being operated by Life henchmen. Your comments will never see the light of day. Good luck!

  68. TruthSeeker permalink
    January 2, 2012 5:06 pm

    Comment did not get through moderation. Amthrax, this is propaganda. Here is the ever smarmy and cheezy comment from Orrin.

    “I am humbled and so thankful to receive this award on behalf of entrepreneurs around the world who desire to make an impact through improved leadership. It’s your hunger to grow, learn, and apply that makes me hungry to do the same.

    Thank you IAB for the prestigious award. The best is still to come. Let’s make 2012 a breakthrough year for leaders across the world. Sincerely, Orrin Woodward”

  69. Finally permalink
    January 2, 2012 5:44 pm

    Amen speak and 1Million and NoTeam for me. Orrin is not considered a leader ANYWHERE but on a Team stage……..why is that so hard to see??? He is a liar a cheat and a first class lowlife for the things he has done and the people he has hurt. He is delusional, self serving, narcissistic and far worse than any of the people in the real world he has criticized for years. Tim and Chris are right there with him because they know what he is doing. I hope and pray for justice for them……….and that may not be long off. All of the team cronies on here will learn in a very public way what we that have experienced them first hand already know.

    Team life has about a 12 to 18 month life span, who is really going to buy into them and their “Life” plan……… to to bankrupt, screw people over, lie, cheat and steal……..Maybe Mark Huber can do a seminar on parenting………..and finances Ha I know that is a shot but he is the one that did the things he did…….Go Team Life!!!!!

    Darkangelos and cullers are now financial planners from what I hear………Just plain hehehe. Think about it Huber does a cd called victory II, he tells how he was crying and and his wits end about his finances and Team of Destiny saved him……….Ten years later he goes bankrupt In Team…….WOW what a business LOL………..

  70. Speak Your Truth permalink
    January 2, 2012 7:16 pm

    I second that TruthSeeker~ “This is a blog that I believe is being operated by Life henchmen.”

    Finally~ That is histerical! The grand masters on faith, family, finances…hahaaha. What a total joke!

  71. Speak Your Truth permalink
    January 2, 2012 7:19 pm

    Finally~ Hope they get the message that figures and facts don’t lie, Perhaps they should read the post on their own backruptcies and this very thread..haahaha!

    Those ‘pesky little facts’…tend to come back and bite you right in the behind!

  72. das permalink
    January 2, 2012 7:49 pm

    Orrin…““I am humbled and so thankful to receive this award”

    SEE, I knew He was humble, He even says so! LMAO

  73. das permalink
    January 2, 2012 7:58 pm

    Where has Rascal and Hub been? it sure has been quiet lately. I hope Rascal is reading and gathering more info for his new book. 🙂

  74. Speak Your Truth permalink
    January 2, 2012 8:54 pm

    das~ hahahaha You guys are killin me!

  75. rickdg permalink
    January 3, 2012 5:55 am

    I truly believe the guys at the top know these are the last days of Team?Life? The job that this site and others have done is righteous! Like David standing up to the Giant. And, the momentum is only going to grow bigger. The end of Life is near. Just as Nostradamus and the Aztecs predicted the end of life in 2012, I propose:
    Life began 11/11/11
    Life ends 12/12/12 or before!

  76. Speak Your Truth permalink
    January 3, 2012 8:14 am


    “It ticks me off I paid to see him speak! I want a refund!……Oh yes, How could I forget, I will have to pay my refund to myself since all the responsibility for refunds came back on us! What a joke…. I guess I will go write myself a check! LOL!”

    You got me on this one…hahahahah…lmao…go write myself a check…ahahahahahaha!!!!

    I am most definitely with you on this….So sad but true!!!! 🙂

  77. January 3, 2012 8:43 am

    If you have a copy of the CD, I would consider mentioning it on the Primer page.

  78. Keith permalink
    January 3, 2012 12:07 pm

    1millionlifes and no team for me,
    I’m not blind and don’t paint me with a broad brush stroke I do watch TV and listen to the radio , but I’m very selective about what I watch and listen to, as everyone should be. I looked at the links above and they’re interesting. So, for the sake of argument, let’s say what they espouse is true, even you would to agree that. Orrin and Chris still wrote a best selling book about leadership. That’s indisputable.

    We could go back and forth arguing about what’s printed here, but the point you seem to missing is this: We are all adults with free will and because of that we get to choose the things we want to do in life (no pun intended). You can rant and rave all you want about what you think TEAM and Orrin are doing, but in the end people who are involved made a choice to be involved, just as you have not to be involved.

  79. Vogel permalink
    January 3, 2012 12:31 pm

    Keith, don’t be so myopic. The issue here is truth in advertising. If Orrin and his henchman were open and honest about what they are/were really offering, this blog probably wouldn’t exist — and very few people would have ever signed up for their little scam. But they aren’t open and honest, so this blog fills in the gaps and tells the truth that’s been hidden from the public. These are clearly deceptive and manipulative con artists, and now they are tripping over their lies and paying the price — with their reputations — for all the BS over the years. Their comeuppance has been long overdue.

  80. Kathy permalink
    January 3, 2012 1:11 pm

    @rickdg AMEN!!!!

  81. das permalink
    January 3, 2012 2:32 pm

    Keith, best selling authors? Are you serious? Do you think anyone other than team members bought their book? I personally bought 24 copies of their “Best Selling” book and that is a small order compared to my movin on upline. It was also pushed off on members as “Book of the Month”, and it was purchased by all who got started with the Team in their starters pack. Chris and Orrin’s books are shoved down your throats, so get off the “best selling” author BS. All of their books will be best sellers until you stand up and say enough is enough.

    Also, your comment about adults having a choice…you need to read on cults and coercion through mind control…cd’s, books, and seminars. You have been lied to and can’t even see it. I know, I once sat right where you are. How many “adults” do you think drank the cyanide laced cool-aide that Jim Jones of the Peoples Temple was pushing in Guyana? They had a choice right? Why did they all commit suicide? Mind control thru coercion and lies is very powerful. Look around at your team at the next seminar.

  82. das permalink
    January 3, 2012 2:36 pm

    Webelieved, sorry, didn’t see your post before I started writing, I’m a slow pecker, lmao.

  83. das permalink
    January 3, 2012 2:40 pm

    Vogle, right on…“If Orrin and his henchman were open and honest about what they are/were really offering, this blog probably wouldn’t exist — and very few people would have ever signed up for their little scam.”

    I am sure Keith was lied to and told half truths just as all of us were. I think that is what pisses me off most and I believed them because I trusted a close friend.

  84. Keith permalink
    January 6, 2012 11:36 pm

    Vogel and Das,If truth in advertising is what pisses you off why aren’t you blogging about the stuff Madison Avenue shoves down peoples throats everyday. No deception or coercion there…right?

    Webelieved, where’s is your evidence to prove your claim.

    And finally, the New York Times and the Wall Street Journal always list fake best sellers…got it!

  85. Brent H permalink
    January 7, 2012 12:57 am

    @Keith, do you actually know what it takes to make a book a best-seller? What criteria actually determines whether a book is proclaimed as a best-seller and what does it actually mean?

    In the UK, a book is a best-seller when it sells an average of 4,000 books per week. In Canada a book is a best-seller when it has total sales of at least 5,000 books. What is the criteria here in the U.S. ? You would assume that J.K. Rowlings first run of Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire, which sold 3.8 million copies would make it a best-seller correct? Wrong, that book never even achieved best-seller status.

    Is it possible that a best-seller status could be a manipulated contrition by the authors or publishers? It absolutely is as explained in this article.

    “In 1995, the authors of a book called ‘The Discipline of Market Leaders’ colluded to manipulate their book onto the best seller charts. The authors allegedly purchased over 10,000 copies of their own book in small and strategically placed orders at bookstores whose sales are reported to Bookscan. Because of the ancillary benefits of making the New York Times Bestseller list (speaking engagements, more book deals, and consulting) the authors felt that buying their own work was an investment that would pay for itself. The book climbed to #8 on the list where it sat for 15 weeks, also peaking at #1 on the Business Week best seller list. Since such lists hold the power of cumulative advantage chart success often begets more chart success. And although such efforts are not illegal, they are considered highly unethical.”

    How does the New York Times determine a best-seller? Here is their formula Keith.

    “The New York Times’ list, for example, has nothing directly to do with actual book sales. They produce their list by surveying a sample group of book sellers and compiling that information into a list of what’s supposedly selling best.”

    You see Keith, there is way more to this ‘best-seller’ stuff than selling books, it is a game that can be manipulated just like anything else.

    And as far as any newspaper being a credible source of unbiased information, I would have to disagree100% with you. Here is a perfect example of two stories from two newspapers that totally contradict each other, you will have to choose which to believe.

    First example is a massive 40 page article in the Wall Street Journal which touts MLM as the ultimate social business model, and provides tons of hype and fluff about a what a great model MLM is.

    Then there is this article from the Salt Lake Tribune about Monavie (team’s last escapade) and what a travesty it has been for those who have been involved.

    Now you will have to decide Keith which article paints a more accurate picture of the industry. Oh, and by the way the insert in the Wall Street Journal is merely a paid advertisement primarily funded by the DSA, and is hardly a subjective piece.

    If we had enough money and deemed it beneficial, we could have an insert placed in the Wall Street Journal titled ‘Amthax blog, the ultimate anti-mlm blog’. Being a paid advertisement lends no credibility to any topic.

    So if you care to research further Keith and then explain what criteria was used to make ‘Launching A Leadership Revolution’ a New York Times and a WSJ best-seller, I am sure there are many here who would like to know, after all as shown in the above example, it can be gamed just like anything else. Would it have been possible to have reached best-seller status simply through internal consumption of the book? Absolutely! Some books can reach best-seller status not by number of books sold, but by how quickly copies sell. I can think of no quicker way than to have your group pre-order multiple copies of the book so that when it landed it sold quick.

    Please define best-seller?

  86. das permalink
    January 7, 2012 5:52 am

    Keith, I don’t know anything about Madison Ave but I do know about the deception on Team.

    The lies are what piss me off from friends that also are deceived, not the truth. You obviously were not around when ‘Launching A Leadership Revolution’ was published. I was and I stated facts above…whether you believe them or not it’s up to you. Go ahead Keith, ask your friend that got you involved with Team how that book became a best seller. While you’re at it, ask him about attrition rates in Team/Life, for an income disclosure statement and how his return on investment is going. Ask for proof Keith, don’t take his word or our word for it. Ask why so many big leaders are no longer involved if they were job optional. It just doesn’t make sense does it?

    As Brent stated, there are ways to game the system and Orrin has built his status on doing so. Be it a best selling author or a leadership guru…he is still a fake when he games the system.

  87. Vogel permalink
    January 7, 2012 9:15 am

    Keith said: “Vogel and Das,If truth in advertising is what pisses you off why aren’t you blogging about the stuff Madison Avenue shoves down peoples throats everyday. No deception or coercion there…right?”

    Classic red-herring! The argument of an idiot. Seriously, how do you know what anyone does when they’re not posting here? Why would you even care?

    Just another pathetic attempt to cloud the issue.

  88. Keith permalink
    January 7, 2012 9:45 am

    I’m curious… is anyone who has an opinion different than yours an idiot? Take a lesson on how to have a civil debate by looking at the responses from das, webelieved and Brent. If you have to resort to name calling because you have nothing intelligent to say you lose.

  89. January 7, 2012 9:54 am

    @Keith and @Vogel – Let’s try to keep the name-calling down to a minimum.

    @Keith – This is a consumer advocate blog against the dangers of MLMs and MLM training organizations. I keep things on topic.

  90. Brent H permalink
    January 7, 2012 10:08 am

    Your ‘Madison Avenue’ statement is actually a Red Herring Keith, Vogel is correct. One thing I have noticed here is all pro-Lief/Team folks never answer a question directly. Lets stick to the facts. What made their book a ‘best-seller’ ? I have my opinion of how their book became a best-seller, but I am looking for facts, can you provide them?

    And since the orignal topic of this thread is about he mathematics of the new compensation plan, do you dispute the numbers as well? Are more than 4% of members able to cover the cost of their subscription? If not, do you feel that a maximum break-even ratio of 4% is adequate for a business model? Please do not come back with the usual statistics about business success ratios, there is a vast difference between statistics and mathematics.

    And if there are actual retail sales happening outside of the compensation plan which would strengthen your position, would you be willing to do a screen share with me on skype and show me that information in your back office? And would you be willing to show me in that screen share the number and percentage of people you have on your team that are able to earn enough to cover their monthly subscription?

    Now please don’t respond with more cdspeak, rhetoric or irrational escalation, lets talk about the topic at hand here. I am like you Keith, I like to have a civil debate, as long as we can talk about the facts and not just your opinion.

    I have been there Keith so I understand the tendency to have a Semmelweis reflex. No one likes to learn that perhaps they have believed and even bought into incorrect information. Do you believe that there is plausible truth contained within this blog, or do you think it is all garbage made up by some disgruntled former Teamers? What exactly do you believe Keith, I am really interested to know?

  91. Freedomhaha permalink
    January 7, 2012 1:28 pm

    @RickDG- You are right about the momentum building with this blog! It has been spread around my former area of TEAM with awesome results! Many people will be learning a painful truth, but in the end I believe they will come out so much better on the other side as many on this blog have. 12/12/12 is a great goal for the downfall of TEAM! Pretty much everyone uses Google to search the opportunity after they are shown the plan and I KNOW people are finding this blog. With the combination of people seeing the truth and leaving TEAM and prospects saying “no” to the plan after reading the amazing work on here we can’t be stopped!

  92. Keith permalink
    January 8, 2012 12:37 pm


    The Madison Ave. wasn’t a Red Herring. My point is that all advertising is not truthful. In terms of TEAM, they’ve done everything they said they were going to do. In terms of the numbers i can’t say given the company is only 2 months old.They’re projected. is it possible they may be incorrect…sure, but how many other companies project their numbers and they’re incorrect?

    At no point in my correspondence did I ever refer to Vogel by anything other than his screen name.

  93. Brent H permalink
    January 8, 2012 1:01 pm

    Keith, once again I am totally disappointed by your reaction. Until now, you or any other Life member has refused to answer any direct questions. Your comment about the Madison Avenue Red Herring is a Red Herring in an of itself. Let me ask the questions one more time, and if you refuse to answer them, or at least acknowledge them, then please indicate that. You talk about sticking to the facts, what is your response? If your not willing to engage, then just say so. You see, if we cannot discuss facts/truth here in this forum then what else is there?

    1. What criteria is used to determine whether a book becomes a best-seller?

    2. Is it possible that a best-selling book could be a manipulated contrition by either the author, authors, or publishers.

    3. Which article do you believe depicts the true nature of the MLM industry, the Wall Street Journal article, or the Salt Lake Tribune article?

    4. Do you know how the “launching a revolution” book became a best-seller?

    5. Do the mathematics of the Life compensation plan allow for less/more than a 4% break even ratio?

    6. Do you feel that a 4% break even ratio is truly a business opportunity?

    7. Would you be willing to do a screen share on skype and open your Life back office to me and show me the percentage of people in your group who are earning enough to cover their monthly subscription?

    8. Would you be willing to screen share and show me how many “customer” sales are occuring in your business?

    9. Do you believe that there could be any truth on this blog?

    10. Do you believe that those on this blog are just spreading garbage because they are disgruntled ex-teamers?

  94. Speak Your Truth permalink
    January 8, 2012 11:38 pm


    You say; “We could go back and forth arguing about what’s printed here, but the point you seem to missing is this: We are all adults with free will and because of that we get to choose the things we want to do in life (no pun intended).”

    This may seem logical on the surface that you have ‘free will’ and you ‘choose the things you want to do in the Team-Lief Program but this is a half-truth( btw~ Team of Destiny`in Amway, Team in Quixtar, Team Monavie, and now Team LieF are one in the same, with a tweek here and there but the basic foundation of the system dates back almost 2 decades with Orrin) and the higher up you get and the longer you are in Team Lief, this becomes even more of a lie. Here is a few things to think about;

    If you are going to be ‘all in’ and make money, and not necessarily profit but you have to follow their.. ‘proven- dublicatable system’ other words IF you plan on making (any money)..what they get people to ‘believe’ and what their comp plan/mathematics show is deceptive in and of itself.. but they also tell you have to follow ‘everything’ they say, to get what they got.

    They created a ‘culture’ of peer pressure to serve their agenda and continually use this to express their ideology and to keep the money flowing to the top. Now when you are a part of it; it ‘appears’ as if you have a free will; this is not the whole truth if you learn and understand the processes, their deceptive techniques, and start to understand the comp plan, which doesn’t become clear until you leave, step back, get off system and really see. Also when you learn that their is a whole lot of information that they intentionally withhold from the masses to get them in and keep them in.

    (1)They chose the information you read and listen to, which is ‘information control.’ them, only.
    (2) They control who you talk to…No cross-linning. read the (P&P)
    (3) They control your time….Open Meetings, Seminars, Majors, Mentoring sessions, Special Meetings, STP @ least 15 times per month etc..
    (4) They tell you how you should dress.
    (5) They have their own agenda and ideology to change your beliefs (that they don’t fully disclose and are not transparent on most all things, read this blog)
    (6) They control what you say and on what websites you can go to; to respond to, research or get outside information. (P&P)
    (7) They control what your family says about your business (any negative comments could get your business taken from you) P&P’s
    (8) If they decide you have embarrassed the Team in anyway…(their discretion, could mean anything, such as forclosure, defaults, bankruptcies, divorce,etc.. they can take your buisness and money you earned.) read.. P&P
    (9) They taught and used deceptive recruiting and other techniques, coercive persuassion, get and keep people ‘in’. Read the link I put up in this post. See if this doesn’t rink true to anything they do or you are experiencing with the Team Lief.
    (10) They do not allow anyone to ‘question’ the decisions nor do you have any control over the decisions the PC makes. So they control the vital decisions to your business. How the PF is made or spent, how much you will be paid if any. They do not disclose any important factors concerning your future with the Profit sharing other than what they can do to take it from you etc…etc.

    Do those requirements sound like it is choices or you could use your free will?

    Here a link for you to learn from, please do yourself a favor and read it in full, you sincerely don’t know what you don’t know:

    I believe if you are honest with yourself, you will learn something about what we know to be the truth; based on decades of experience around the Orrin & PC. As you are reading keep in mind the 10 things I listed, there are more but that will be enough I am sure to get a very clear understanding.


    You say; “You can rant and rave all you want about what you think TEAM and Orrin are doing, but in the end people who are involved made a choice to be involved, just as you have not to be involved.”

    We know what we experienced, period.The people we thought we were in business with and what we ‘chose’ to be ‘in’ as it turns out it is not what we were promised or told it was (btw-we were recruited in, and later learned the same clever techniques) and then who we found out we were really in business with…as it turns out, was the polar opposite of what we believed they we due to the breach of trust, betrayal, and the constant demanded edification from everyone that they were Christian, Integrity, Honesty etc..Never once were we told we were recruited into or told we were building “a pyramid scheme with hopelessly overpriced products”~ Orrin about Amway/quixtar

    So, when you are lied to, deceived and stolen from; I could tell you with 100% certainty….it is not what we would have ‘chosen’, neither would you or anyone else..’choose’ to be lied to, decieved, and ripped off? So, it doesn’t matter what kind of fake status or gamed awards they get, it is irrevelant…in the end it; when people have been conned, betrayed, deceived, lied to and stolen from.

    Looking forward to your understanding and recognition of the material you read from the link. Good luck.

  95. rickdg permalink
    January 9, 2012 4:47 am

    In a nutshell – that was it. A great explanation, Speak! After reading that, it is clear that lies are the glue that hold Team/Lief together. BTW, the choice of calling the new business Lief is going to come back to bit them. Might be the biggest Freudian slip made by the powers that be. The reason they used the word was to create chaos when you Googled the word Life. But it has the word lie in it. And now, because of this site, and others, they are doing a lot of Damage Control, i.e. Dooly, Kevin the MLM Lawyer, and most likely this new guy Keith. So they sit around coming up with more lies to cover their first lies. You get the picture.

  96. Speak Your Truth permalink
    January 9, 2012 1:32 pm


    It never ceases to amaze me the denial these folks are in (it is hard to remember or maybe cuz I don’t want and that they don’t answer direct questions such as Brent’s but they expect others to take what they dish out? Hmm… Do they not think this is extremely obvious to us; why they don’t?

    We already know they are trained and conditioned to avoid, distract and divert…we learned the same handling objections, deceptive, and cowdardly techniques. As I have said many times…you can’t con a con. I feel we went to con a masters.. but thank God we ‘woke up’ and snapped out of it, and traded our delusional lives in for the truth but kept the knowledge of the techniques and game so never again can we ‘fall for’ anyone’s con game and our BS meter is set on super duper sensitive.

    I really don’t expect Keith to come back and answer Brents questions..they are too tough and the ‘offer’ to open his back office will never happen, this only confirms the truth of what we say.. but I do sincerely hope he reads the link!

  97. Brent H permalink
    January 10, 2012 8:47 am

    Keith where are you?

  98. Speak Your Truth permalink
    January 10, 2012 11:04 am


  99. Speak Your Truth permalink
    January 10, 2012 12:17 pm

    Here is another one:

    (11) They lie to prospects and followers and have them ‘believing’ that they OWN their OWN Business…but the reality is you OWN NOTHING.. as a matter of fact, they charge you for them to own it…They tell everyone they are ‘teaching’ you how to build a B-type business (LIE #2, you have to own the buisness for it to become a B-type)..Who owns the system, Team Lief again..thought so? Then LIE # 3,4, can build the buisness with a Promised: Passive, On-going, Pipeline, Willable, income for the rest of your LIFE!

    To confirm that these are LIES there are many testimonies (including on here) that their teams and profit-sharing incomes were stolen, that there is NO passive on-going, willable pipeline, etc. T

    The only pipeline.. ongoing.. anything; is the lies… and if that isn’t ‘good enough’ evidence for ya..then just READ the Team Lief’s P & P.

    The P&P should wake you up and see that those things aren’t possible, due to the fact they can ‘take it’ (your owned business..haha w/passive blah, ba dee blah) from you for any reason they can ‘dream-up’!

    So, they are either flat out lying to everyone when they spew that garbage from stage or to your face, or on a cd, or in a blog or where ever..either that or they have made some BIG, Huge, Mistakes… intentionally or accidentially.. in the P&P..You can read, THINK and decide which one it is!

  100. Speak Your Truth permalink
    January 15, 2012 8:51 am

    Dang what happened to Keith, I am looking forward to the answers? Perhaps he’s checking with the guru and getting the answers.

    Keith said; “In terms of TEAM, they’ve done everything they said they were going to do.”

    (1)Then where is all of our passive, residual, ongoing, willable, pipeline, income for the rest of our lives, they promised we would have? (Lie)

    (2)They also told us they would NEVER do anything to ‘hurt’ our business,(Lie)
    (3)Then Orrin said NO ONE would be left behind when everyone followed into MV (Lie).
    (4)He also said he ONLY used his income for HIS lawsuit, NOT the profit-sharing money, (lie).
    (5) He said he was a Christian who follows leadership principles (lying is not a Christian principle, nor leadership; (Lie).
    (6)He said he was a trusted friend (Lie).
    (7)They were transparent leaders (Lie).
    (8)Bench Marking, for MV and the Best for all, then now he doesn’t promote MV? (Lie)
    (9) Tell everyone to edifiy their leaders, then slandered them (Lie)
    (10) Said they had Integrity and were Honest. (Lie)
    (11) Told us they could be trusted. (LIE)
    (12) Told us we were in the Best Business Bar None, then sued Q/Amway because Orrin knew all along we were in a “pyramid scheme with hopelessly overpriced products,” telling us all along to ‘keep building’. (Lie)
    (12) Said the Team was a performanced based buisness and there was NO special deals (BIG FAT LIE)

    Lies, Lies, and many more Lies!

    Keith~ You still must be reading, So, Take that to the Guru’s and ask them why They LIE so much.

    From our experience… The Team hasn’t done Anything but LIE, or They said they were going to do…far,far from it!

  101. What the??? permalink
    January 16, 2012 7:27 am

    I wasn’t sure what topic I should post this under. I just read an article regarding a BBB warning for work-for-home scams. The portion I found most interesting was this:

    The Federal Trade Commission, a government agency charged with protection of American consumers, has issued a Business Opportunity Rule with safeguards against get-rich-quick business opportunities.

    Under that Rule, those who try to sell you business opportunities must give you a one-page disclosure document with important facts about that opportunity. In it they must identify themselves, disclose any legal actions against them and explain their cancellation policy. Additionally if they are making a claim about how much you can earn, they must give you a separate earnings claim statement.

    That earnings claim statement clearly outlines the specifics of their claim. They must give you the start and end date that the earnings are achievable within. The number and percentage of people who got those results must be divulged. If something about those people might differ from you, like the country they live in, they must say so. Finally, they must be able to give you a statement that is written proof of their earnings claim.

  102. January 16, 2012 8:55 am

    @What the??? – Can you post the link to the article?

  103. Brad permalink
    May 24, 2012 5:31 pm

    One should note that the business volume is now referred to as point volume. Mostly 1 point equals 1 PV, but there are many cases where something is $15, but only worth 10 PV. This makes the numbers worse. Many of the books sold on subscription are published by Orrin and Chris’s publishing company that THEY OWN. They also require you to be on System the “TEAM” products which is about $25-30 a month in order to get paid. None of that money spent is worth PV either making you fork out more money without raising your business volume.

  104. Speak Your Truth permalink
    May 25, 2012 1:53 pm


    Thanks for sharing that information! No Suprise…MORE $$$ for the PC. Not funny, how they say They aren’t in it for the MONEY…pretty obvious…They ARE! They pay lip service to they want to ‘help’ others get Profitable….but then where is the Results to Prove It??!!!

  105. Brent Hansen permalink
    May 25, 2012 10:19 pm

    Brad, please be more specific about your comments. Are you saying that there are $25 and $30 products that have not volume attached to them, and there are no commissions being paid on those products? What products are they? And are they “required” in order for you to receive commissions? That is what it sounds like you are saying to me, and I am hoping you will clarify your statement. Thanks!



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