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Reader Report: Mesha’s Story on the TEAM LIFE Scam

December 21, 2011

MLM proponents like to attack their critics with quotes like, “You can never believe everything you read on the Internet,” or, “why would you believe someone who posts anonymously?” What would these proponents say about the LIFE testimonials on the web or the proliferation of LIFE TEAM cheerleadership blogs? Should a prospect instantly believe what he or she reads on those sites just because there’s a photo or name behind the article? What if the LIFE TEAM testimonials are being fabricated or embellished? We’ve already shown on this site how supposedly “job-optional” leaders within TEAM had filed for bankruptcy or initiated strategic defaults on their mortgages, or had their own anonymous blogging efforts revealed.

With that in mind, here’s another reader story from new commenter Meshai (Mesha), which I am sure many people will be able to relate to. I suspect many people within the LIFE TEAM, R3Global, WWDB, or any other MLM are experiencing the same things that Meshai went through. The cognitive dissonance is strong, and the only way to break through is to take a step back (get off the tools) and realize, “What the heck am I doing?” or “What the heck is going on here?”

Hello, it’s “Meshai” again. Here and ready to share my story… and try to keep from rambling too much. I will admit, after reading a lot of the stories on this site from people that have been with TEAM/Amway/etc. for years I feel slightly silly for even writing on this site. I was with TEAM for only a few months and did not recruit a single person into my down line (Thank God). I haven’t suffered the betrayal, or financial losses that so many of you have here. About a month into TEAM, I read some of the stories on this site. I kick myself that I didn’t run for the hills screaming, but I guess I have to see them ‘proven’ through my experiences. It’s better late than never, right?

I feel a sense of loss since I quit, but I also feel like a great burden has been lifted from my shoulders. No more having to make excuses for Orrin and Co., no more cognitive dissonance, no more worrying that I am going crazy, and no more stress over how to afford all this crap. I have the posture that I know that what I am doing (quitting) is right 🙂

I am still trying to sort through all the noise in my head… the confusion… the mixture of events… the anger…. guilt. Feeling like an idiot…. and the yearning for something I know I can never have. This experience has been akin to an adult not believing in Santa; then letting their guard down and saying what if… just to realize he really really isn’t real! Writing helps me sort through my feelings. As I write, I discover. Knowing that I can share my thoughts with others who ‘understand’ and have some background knowledge about the business is good. It feels good to vent. My friends don’t get it. All they see is that one moment I was all gun-ho about this opportunity, and the next I just abruptly stop doing it. They are supportive, and kind of thought the opportunity was questionable the whole time, but don’t really understand why I am so upset. They tell me to move on, and I will…

How I joined

Some background info about me: I am young, idealistic, and was looking for an opportunity to make money and make a difference in other people’s lives. My college degree wasn’t cutting it. I was broke, in a ton of debt, and half the people I knew fit the TEAM stereotype of overworked, underpaid, in debt, TV watching 95%-ers.

I had never heard of TEAM before or even knew what mlm/networking was. I had zero business knowledge or background. I did not understand much of anything about the business except that it was supposed to help me make money. I asked a ton of questions but most were just answered with more questions. (That should have been a warning sign… Duh!) I wasn’t too convinced but just thought ‘what the heck… I don’t have much to lose… I’ll give it a try.’ After all, the friend that invited me had a pretty good head on her shoulders and didn’t fit any crazy mlm/salesperson burnout stereotype.

Because I was curious, I did some web searches at first and didn’t find anything but Orrin Woodward websites. I thought that was kind of odd, but was able to brush that aside. I read the first night pack and remember thinking it was kind of wordy but was really impressed with Orrin’s system. I thought he invented network marketing. Ha!

The idea of TEAM sounded really good. I was always a little reluctant in the back of my mind because it sounded almost too good to be true, but I really brought into their idea of creating a residual, B type income. I have always yearned to make a difference in the world, to set myself apart, and not do what everyone else was doing. I never considered just not working but I have never wanted to work in the same job until retirement. Nor did I want to have as much debt as my parents. Every time I saw the plan, it was like I signed up all over again. I didn’t want to have my life sucked out of me by a job. It didn’t help that I have never had anything but crappy, low wage student jobs.

I liked the idea that I would only be making money if I helped others make money and improve their lives. I loved the uplifting and positive environment. I felt happier when I first became involved with TEAM. Things started to look up and my pessimistic attitude was improving.

Second Thoughts

A funny thing happened, though. The longer I was there and started to treat ‘the business’ like a business, the more I wanted to make sure that the business was solid. I saw that TEAM was a bigger commitment of time and money than what I had originally thought. I started to take the business more seriously. This wasn’t just going to be some thing or hobby. I saw the potential that was presented, but still didn’t understand how the business really worked. I tried asking my up line, but everything he said sounded like gibberish…or was answered with a question and a CD. I started to get slightly irritated and looked for more info online. I found this site. I read some stories. A lot of it didn’t make any sense, especially sense I didn’t know who half the RT members were or anything about the lawsuit. I was just confused. From this site, I was able to gather that TEAM had screwed a bunch of people over, though. Some stories were so bad that even though they made me want to throw up, I had a hard time believing them. But, the seeds of mistrust had been planted. I was a bit more cautious. I thought I could handle it. I believed that if it was really a scam that I was too smart to get sucked in (oh geez).

I had a hard time believing them because… well… everything seemed so normal. I decided to continue with TEAM after seeing this site. It was my friend who I could see standing in the flesh in front of me vs. ‘anonymous’ people online I had never met. I figured that the possible gain that I could get through TEAM (money beyond my wildest dreams) was worth the possible risk. Ehhh… I know, I know. I had already established a relationship with my friend’s sponsor and the whole group of people they were working with. I am a very loyal person and felt that in some way by going to this site that I had betrayed people I cared about that only wanted to help me. I told them about some things I have heard online and they told me that ‘That was Amway’, that ‘I can’t believe everything I hear online’, and that ‘the internet is like the bathroom wall.’ In general everyone seemed so normal, they went to church, had regular jobs outside of TEAM, and had families. I felt silly for even wondering if this was a cult.

Nagging Feelings

But, I could not deny that something didn’t feel right. I can be a very detailed person, and not having things make perfect sense will drive me mad. Inconsistencies and contradictions were aplenty and the longer I stayed and started to understand LIFE, the more they jumped out at me.
A few of the things that irritated me:

Why was the business so expensive? I just could not fathom why majors were $125 or why I ended up forking over $35 for my first seminar. 😦 I felt like I was being itemized for EVERYTHING. They say they care about and want to reach the world with ‘life changing information’ but that’s only if you can afford it. And now that TEAM has their own mlm based on CDs/books there was no denying that more profits would go back towards TEAM. Would it go back to the average distributer?

How come there is not an income disclosure statement for profit sharing? When I first joined I assumed that I would make money off of the system as well as the LIFE Program. What? How can you tell me that no one makes money off of the system?

How can you loan me old CDs where Orrin and the PC are talking about MonaVie like it’s the cure for AIDS when now the tide has turned? How can I trust you about this LIFE opportunity then?

How can there be LIFE testimonies online before LIFE has even begun?! I understand that some of those testimonies may be for systems CDs before they were moved over to LIFE but the testimonies specifically say LIFE. If they are the same thing and you just changed the name of it, then why do I need to be on system too? How come a lot of the CDs seem to be from seminars that are talking about how I need to be on system? Since I was already on system I didn’t need to hear about getting on system!!! This business seemed to be a never ending circle. Just like the ones I had to draw…

How come Orrin and the PC seemed to think that they were doing us a favor by attending majors and seminars? Sure, Orrin ‘made it’ and doesn’t ‘have’ to be there, but it’s not like they are not getting paid for it.

Cult like Business: I never understood why my upline and the occasional speaker would make jokes about brainwashing. Could you make this business sound anymore cultish? I enjoyed listening to CDs and reading, but it freaked me out to have everyone telling me to listen to more. Every time I had a question, I was always told that it would make more sense after I’ve ‘studied the system’ more. I was told I needed to think about the business in the right way, be more positive, and feed my mind the ‘right’ information… blah, blah, blah. The more CDs I listened to I discovered that every TEAM person I met kind of sounded like a CD.

It also made me feel very, very uncomfortable the way people would edify Orrin.

TEAM started to seem like more than just a business to me, but, rather a lifestyle, a community, a movement. Almost an ideology. Even according to my up line TEAM was a social cause wrapped around a business. We were going to ‘Take Back America’ and restore it to what the founding fathers wanted. We were fighting a media war. What exactly we were aiming to take back America for was so vague that it could almost mean whatever the individual distributor wanted it to. This bothered me. How could we save America through one CD at a time? Freeing up families financially so they have more time to stay at home and raise their children right and turn the tide of this country? Even if this business was a legitimate, working model it doesn’t seem possible for half the country to do MLM. Obviously there needs to be people working JOBS in other sectors of the economy. Of course they may argue that not everyone is called or wants to be a 5%-er, but if TEAM is the only way to make money and free up time, then does that mean that people in unfortunate financial circumstances are just not meant to be 5%-ers or that it is their own damn fault?

Learning how to bring others into the business was probably the most damning thing for me in the business. In my short time here I of course knew that people would at times quit the business. Now, I wanted to have that type B residual income that was promised to me but did not see how it could really be passive income if I kept on needing to recruit people to make up for ones that left. For every question I had the system was usually the answer. “How do bring people in?” The system. “How do I keep people here?” The system (!)… Excuse me while I go throw up.

When I learned about ‘recruiting’ others I felt excited to learn how to build a big business but this led me to reflect on how I was prospected. This edification BS was the weirdest piece of crap I have ever heard of. I remember thinking how cool it was that all these successful leaders were praising my friend when I first started and I wanted a piece of the action… ha-ha… if only I knew that they are supposed to say that things. *Sigh*

And then there’s that whole crosslining rule. What do you mean I can’t talk to someone on a different leg without my upline present? And I’m supposed to be an Independent Business Owner?!

Also, what do you mean most of the PC were there from Amway days?! That’s not very encouraging.

When I think about all the things my up line said to me when I was in I wonder why I didn’t just bounce right then and there. All the mind games… *sigh* I was told that the more ‘information’ I had the better I would feel, that I wouldn’t have as many doubts the more time I spent here with ‘ the association’ and that ‘ the fog would be lifted’. The CDs emphasized the importance of being a ‘rascal’, not caring what others thought, doing the right thing, and being transparent but then I’d see the opposite going on. People who quit were said to be lazy and not have a big enough dream. It was never the fault of leaders or the system.

Quitting TEAM

When I came back to write on this blog I about had it. After all that I wanted to quit but felt like I couldn’t. I will never forget this experience but struggle with explaining it. Here is my best attempt at explaining what happened:

I WANTED to believe that life was as simple as rotating the pattern and becoming rich by helping others become rich. If only all I needed to do in life to have success was follow a system. Sometimes it is easy and less scary to not make choices and just let others make them for us BUT the price to pay is high. I enjoyed the instant community and friends, especially when my personal life outside of TEAM was rocky. The positivity was contagious, and even with all the bs going on felt happier than what I felt in a while. I felt that TEAM helped me make some positive personal choices and I was scared that I was going to lose all that if I left. I had a lot of fear. I was afraid that I was letting my own pessimistic attitude and mistrust of others ruin a good opportunity. I questioned my understanding of the business. Were things really that bad? Did very few people really make money from this business? I was afraid of losing my friendship with my friend as well if I quit, All my childhood fears about people disliking me came back with a vengeance. I knew what ‘Teamers’ felt about people who left the business and couldn’t stand the thought of all my new ‘friends’ thinking I was an idiot either. My friends outside of TEAM thought the association was questionable but supported me either way. When I told my parents about TEAM they looked at me as if I had just told them I was joining the circus… but… supported me as well. It was the people in Team I was worried about. I wanted to quit but just couldn’t bring myself to say that powerful, terminating word. No.

And then there were the CDs. They are addictive. I can see why some people on this site say they are so dangerous. I think listening to them gave me a false sense of history with Orrin and the rest of the PC and RT. So many emotional stories. All the times I remember hearing Orrin speaking things that resonated true with me. I just had a hard time believing that the business was so flawed or that Orrin could do so many horrible, gut wrenching things. Though I had never met most of them up close and personal I felt I had a bound with them.

I didn’t have anything else to offer. If I knocked TEAM, what other solution was I going to come up with that offered the same kind of opportunity? Could TEAM really, really be that bad? Would my friend and the people I’ve developed relationships with really lead me astray? They seem smart. Many people I’ve interacted with in TEAM have been here for a few years. It’s unthinkable to think they are all being scammed… but even more unthinkable to think they may be trying to scam me. But if they are trying to scam me and know what’s going on than they are also scamming themselves? WTF.

Deep down I knew that I just couldn’t do this. How could I look anyone in the eye and say that I was going to help them make money like this? But that’s what I needed to do if I was going to make any money at all with TEAM. I couldn’t do it, but was angry with myself for getting tangled up in this mess. Damn. I was disgusted with myself for caring so much about what other people thought that I was willing to perhaps even invite others to a business that may cause them to lose money. I don’t know why this made me feel so conflicted but I felt so torn that I was about to break. I hated my confusion, but all these overwhelming feelings died down a little into a quiet simmer. I could live with it. I could function with it.

The CDs talked about doing the right thing even when it’s hard, and having exceptional character. It was strange but I felt convicted by these CDs for the very fact that I was still in the business… and yet, somehow after listening to one I always felt better about the business and myself. WTF. The more CDs I listened to, the more I desired to be a person of strength, character, and perseverance but how could I go against the very source that was sending me that message? Was I somehow mistaken? Maybe I was looking for problems. Maybe subconsciously I didn’t want to do the work that this business required. Could it possibly be that I am ‘despising the business I cannot build?’ Did I really want to have a JOB until the day I died because of my stubbornness? Can all these people be wrong? Would Robert Kiyosaki lead people astray??Maybe I am the one who is brainwashed by watching too much TV and being in public school.

I was in a catch-22 so I took the path of least resistance, and I just kind of stayed and kept on going to opens, house plans etc. I started to feel both guilty for going because this business seemed ‘stupid’ but also guilty for the ‘negative thinking’ and doubts I was harboring when I was with them. Whenever I was with TEAM people though, all my beefs with the business seemed slight petty. When I was with them it was easier to believe it was real. I kind of hated the business, yet was running towards it.

I wanted to have this be right. So in order to make it right I came up with all these justifications in my mind for things that I saw wrong with the TEAM. They basically sounded like this. (A bunch of incoherent ramblings going on in my mind):

  • I told myself that though the stories on this blog sounded convincing, so do Orrin and the rest of the TEAM… Who am I going to trust?
  • If Orrin really did all those bad things he would have been caught by now
  • Do I really have the right to be critical? I don’t have ‘fruit on the tree’
  • Maybe some people lost their teams because they broke some of the rules
  • Orrin has a right to make money
  • If I don’t want someone to make money off of me then I shouldn’t even get up in the morning
  • This business is the cheapest provider of leadership materials in the country and they even give me a chance to earn all my money back and then some
  • What does it matter if only a few people at the top make money? It’s the same way in acting or sports
  • Why shouldn’t I encourage my friends to do this? If they get in I’ll help them make money and I won’t until they do
  • It’s not a pyramid because the person below you can make more money than you
  • What’s so bad with having a business built on belief? If people didn’t trust the banks and took all their money out today then the economy would crash
  • How is this business a cult? Because they want me to believe in myself?

I was able to think of rebuttals (not very good ones, mind you) for every previous argument that I had. The system created the perfect environment for me to do this as well. For a very short period of time the business seemed to make perfect sense to me and I became actually pretty excited, but then finally I kind of realized in horror what I was doing to myself and everything came tumbling down with a hard, loud, thud. (I still need an aspirin… or hard liquor :))

I was confused again but in my confusion I knew that I needed to — no questions about it — run.

I decided that even though I would miss the business and mourn the death of an ‘opportunity’, a lifestyle, and a way of thinking, that the best thing for me would be to quit. I know I cannot go back to this mind f*ck. Even if it meant me scrubbing toilets a minimum wage for the rest of my life (I don’t think that’s very likely though). The crazy thing was, I realized what Orrin had been saying all along was true. If I REALLY studied the system and did EXACTLY what Orrin did, then I might just be on my way to having that kind of wealth, but I can’t do that because I didn’t create the system. Is that how he justifies screwing people? Some of his quotes make me think he wants to see how obvious he can make his scam and get away with it.

In the end the business was too questionable and I could not, in good faith, be involved with it. I needed to choose doing the right thing… even over friendship. I just pray that my friend gets out soon. I realized that TEAM could have me, someone that cared so much what others thought; out there doing God knows what- all for approval. I feel like I am a stronger person for having to make this choice, for sticking to what I know is right in my heart. For being able to find my north star… ha-ha. For doing the right thing even though it hurts.

And lastly, Thanks to each and every one of you for posting your stories here. Your stories have posted those seeds of doubt which caused me to question the way things appeared, as well validated things I already noticed. You are the real heroes.

Read More Ex-TEAM Reader Stories »

96 Comments leave one →
  1. I QUIT (and glad I did) permalink
    December 21, 2011 7:02 am

    Way to go Mesha! Another example of when critical thinking is allowed to flourish, the end result is leaving Team.
    I feel a little guilty knowing I may have played a small role in helping create that “doubt”. Poor Owen may have a less pleasant Christmas because of another loss. I’m so ashamed. (NOT)
    By posting your story here you become a hero as well Mesha. You will help save someone as well. Glad you made it!!

  2. Mike Collins permalink
    December 21, 2011 7:06 am

    Mesha: that was, in a word, BRILLIANT! Thanks for sharing your story with all of us. You are obviously very intelligent and you reason very well. You could have led a lot of people astray had you stayed in Lief.

    Welcome to the real team!

  3. December 21, 2011 7:47 am

    Thanks for sharing, it’s almost “refreshing” (I know it’s not the most appropriate word but for lack of a better word, I suppose) to see someone else go through TEAM and has a similar story as mine. But I really want to emphasise that I’m truly glad and happy for you that you were able to stand up for yourself and say NO. That took a lot of guts, Mesha, and I mean it. I myself didn’t have the courage at all, I was forced to quit due to my credit cards declining.

    I really hope and pray your friend will get out as well. He may not talk to you, and I know it’s hard to accept, because I had it happen to me. I do hope he’ll keep in contact with you and you can show him this site.

    “TEAM started to seem like more than just a business to me, but, rather a lifestyle, a community, a movement. Almost an ideology. Even according to my up line TEAM was a social cause wrapped around a business. We were going to ‘Take Back America’ and restore it to what the founding fathers wanted. We were fighting a media war. What exactly we were aiming to take back America for was so vague that it could almost mean whatever the individual distributor wanted it to. This bothered me. How could we save America through one CD at a time? Freeing up families financially so they have more time to stay at home and raise their children right and turn the tide of this country? Even if this business was a legitimate, working model it doesn’t seem possible for half the country to do MLM. Obviously there needs to be people working JOBS in other sectors of the economy. Of course they may argue that not everyone is called or wants to be a 5%-er, but if TEAM is the only way to make money and free up time, then does that mean that people in unfortunate financial circumstances are just not meant to be 5%-ers or that it is their own damn fault?”

    I just had to quote you because you brought up a valid and very interesting point. I remember my upline answering someone else who was rejected when they showed the plan, and my upline said “Well, he just doesn’t want to be successful”. I remember it as a red flag in my brain, thinking if everyone was a Monavie distributor, then where would all the janitors and contruction workers and whatever else be? Not everyone can be selling juice at the same time.

    Anyway, thanks for sharing the story, Mesha 🙂

  4. Arturo permalink
    December 21, 2011 7:51 am

    We need to remember there are thousands more like Mesha. They are Orrin and Team loyalists who are battling these inner thoughts of doubt and who one day wake up and leave. This site is making a difference. The number of people leaving and speaking out is growing by the day.

  5. ExAmbot permalink
    December 21, 2011 8:57 am

    Your story is mine! I can relate completely. I had the same latitude of emotions – loss, burden lifted, I felt pain, confusion, guilt, cognitive disornance, you name it. I was broke and miserable when I got recruited. I was the same way – never heard of mlm, scAmway, BWW…and I thought Bill Britt owned scAmway – I thought it was the only mlm company.

    I too did a web search, came across “negative” websites that now looking back had truthful info about scAmway. I asked prospective uplines about this but they deflected my questions with more questions and an outright denial that I remember clearly “I don’t know anything about that.” Should have been my warning sign. The story of my long list of questions was legendary in our group. But they got me big with the christian faith based “business” angle. My questions disappeared and I jumped onboard gung-ho to the bone. I fell for it all …a lifestyle, a community, a movement. Almost an ideology… a social cause wrapped around a business… ‘Take Back America’ – everything you have said resonates with me.

    50+ people over 7 years all but 3 have wisely quit. Now I make every effort to apologize to them as I meet them for misleading them, as I was mislead. It’s helped to heal my emotional wounds.

    I especially like your santa line-I have never known what I went through to be so accurately depicted.

    Anyway I was burned out, took a short break from listening to cds, attending meetings and I started snooping online. That’s when I found this site and others like it from late 2009, learned the truth and the veil was lifted. Now I write for the benefit of others whenever I can.

    Thank you for posting your story. It’s a great confirmation to all who post here that our time and effort is worthwile, and we “have fruit on the tree” helping people to get out of this pernicious, predatory so called “MLM industry!”

  6. December 21, 2011 9:16 am

    Brilliant! This is so similar to me! I was also involved for a very short time but felt many similar emotions disproportionate to the short amount of time I was involved. Well said… I am so hopeful that other people will read this story and relate to it!!

  7. das permalink
    December 21, 2011 9:27 am

    Awesome Mesha! I felt your pain and confusion as I read your story. I lived thru the same about 4 years ago. It seems nothing has changed with Team and the way they promote the system and the use of CD’s to answer questions. You are the hero. Thank you Mesha!

  8. Speak Your Truth permalink
    December 21, 2011 11:01 am


    AMAZAING… portrayal and depiction of the very powerful ‘process’ that leads to cognitive dissonance; the belief changing, mind altering confusion, that occurs in every single person!

    This should be quite the wake up call to many that this process happens very, very, quickly. That is why they call it ‘duplicatable & proven’…they have a step by step (learned through modeling, the pattern and system) to walk people subtly, without them fully aware what is happening, but those on the inside, know exactly what to do to get a person to this point, even if they don’t understand it all. It is all strategic and done with specific intent…to create dependency, lock them in, and trap then mentally with their own invested cash and to rely on the upline and system for ALL the answers to life!

    Well done and very well written! There is no doubt (ha!) from your story that it will help so many people! Thank you for taking the time and with your well thought out processes of the thoughts and feelings; that all experience!

    Doubt is their biggest ‘enemy’ and they all know it! That is Why they spend the majority of their time trying to prevent and kill it! One problem, they will never eliminate it; God made us all with an internal compass, a knowing and conscience to eventually win in the end…to ward off and come eventually back to our senses! They create that lack of trust in each person and to stop listening to the gut instincts and your feelings; but eventually people go back to finding it!

    Your story… is music to all of our ears on this site! Thank You! I hope yours and the others stories, will give more people courage and hope to share their stories and it will make a difference and alread has! 🙂

  9. Speak Your Truth permalink
    December 21, 2011 11:08 am

    Your story made me think of the star fish story…this site just helped save another one! The truth will always prevail! 🙂

  10. Peachy permalink
    December 21, 2011 12:03 pm


    What a well written piece which had to be gut wrenching at the same time. We all here have similar stories, and fully appreciate and understand your position as you described them. Your story will be a great source of truth to those who come looking for information on the Team. You are a true hero not only to those of us here, but to those who have yet to come. We all thank you for sharing, and God bless you.

  11. Vogel permalink
    December 21, 2011 3:00 pm

    I’ll add my kudos. The honesty of Mesha’s writing is unmistakable — in stark contrast with the hollow insincerity of TEAM-speak.

    Truth is a bit like pornography; it’s difficult to define but you know what it is when you see it (paraphrasing Supreme Court Justice Potter Stewart).

  12. Hershall permalink
    December 21, 2011 7:23 pm

    Thanks for your story Meshai. I also relate to your story and the steps in leading you to your decision. There are still moments when I think about what could have been. One one hand we see the pattern is duplicatable. We see that one plan at a time and each open meeting can get the people we know and the people they know thinking differently and succeeding. The books are material we never would have picked up on our own. The meetings and recordings are inspiring. There’s always the promise on the next big thing.

    Everyone has questions and concerns. We dismiss them because we want to believe in something bigger than our current reality. We see the inconsistencies and the cover ups. We see the holes in the story. We hear new information from other credible sources and we can’t dismiss the questions and concerns any more.

    The stories here helped me and I got new questions and concerns. The biggest was why there were only about forty couples who were RTs in a stadium of seven thousand? Why were there so few new people at all the house meetings and opens? Certainly most of us in the arena were like the group I was involved with. Struggling. So where was the opportunity? Then I found my way way upline had disappeared. They’d been pretty close to the Woodwards. What happened?!? And where the heck did Pastor Dickie go? And why weren’t the Spiewalks and Birtles and VanBuskirks PC again yet instead of Hawkins?

    The two trains of thought were distinct again instead of trying to fight each other. Time to fish or cut bait.

    I feel for you. You spoke of questioning what’s next for you. It’s tough. The whole world seemed open with possibility if we did the work and got the results. Then we shut the door on it. Wanna know what I did? I went back to some of the books and looked at them in a different way. Many of the authors were writing from traditional business points of view. I dug into what I had dreamed about and realized that those are the things I should be doing. Things from the business that attracted me can translate into other opportunity. And I’m off and running on a new adventure. It still involves helping people see new information. It still involves helping others help themselves. And it still has a strong focus on community.

    I’m meeting new people with similar passion, getting exposed to new ideas and working toward what means a lot to me. Things that I would have needed time away from Team to accomplish. Amthrax also pointed me to That changed my focus a bit.

    You’re an independent thinker. You’ll find yours too. Follow your heart and new chances will show up where you didn’t expect them.

  13. December 21, 2011 8:52 pm

    Re: “If Orrin really did all those bad things he would have been caught by now”

    My brother told me TEAM has hired the BEST MLM Lawyers to position themselves so the FTC doesn’t catch them. The biggest challenge new MLM’s face is being shutdown within the first 12-18mths. TEAM won’t produce an income disclosure statement because it will be obvious who is REALLY making the most money, and the odds of the new person making money are very slim.

  14. Mike Collins permalink
    December 21, 2011 9:59 pm

    Kc: great post! For those who might just be joining us though, we know “o” and company wont e putting out an income disclosure statement anytime soon so we did it for them right here:

  15. webelieved permalink
    December 22, 2011 4:15 am

    Mesha- Great Post! You described almost exactly what most of us have gone through in our thinking. Thank you for putting it into words so honestly.
    I can tell you in my opinion, the Team is not the end all be all like they had made us believe. In fact we have a better chance at a truly successful life having a job, going to college or starting our own businesses. We will keep more of our money in our pockets and more time, as one never truly gets their time back at the top. They just switch to second shift with nights and weekends. It is VERY hard on families and relationships and the guilt for not being there is enormous. The PC are STILL working……nights and weekends. They are not pursuing hobbies etc.full time, because they have to keep up the facade and keep people “in”. Also, it was a build and replace business as it was proven the majority of people quit in the first year when they realize the true cost to their lives.
    Even if one was in the less than 1% who make it, one may slowly realize they lost all their precious time with loved ones and they were basically owned by another; their thoughts, their actions, and who they were was changed drastically. One may also realize money and “making a difference” the team way wasn’t the end all be all, that Team didn’t keep their promises and the ladder was on the wrong wall the whole time.

    Because we are free we don’t have to lie, cheat, or manipulate to get or keep our money. For that my friend we can be proud and have comfort. Self respect cannot be bought and I would rather live in a box and have it! Kudos to you! You sound like a smart, intelligent woman and good things in life are headed your way. Believe it! Your integrity and commitment to doing the right thing even when it was hard will be honored and you will find a way for your dreams!
    I hope you stick around and stay in the conversation, I think you can help a lot of people with your perspective.

  16. webelieved permalink
    December 22, 2011 4:28 am

    Reading is great! I do it all the time! I agree with Hershall, read the business books later when your mind is clear and you will have a different perspective. They may open up new possibilities for you.
    We (commenters on this site) still believe in leadership, honesty, integrity, etc…..we just chose to truly follow it! 🙂 We are not all negative people who hate business or leadership, in fact real leaders think for themselves. Real leaders have useful ideas and don’t just go with the flow because it is easy. Real leaders want and listen to other leaders opinions.
    A great book that helped me see this was the Starfish and the Spider. I loved it!
    It was all about leadership and not about following one person or idea at the top. It valued all the leaders in an organization……… one of my favorites!

  17. humiliated permalink
    December 22, 2011 6:50 am

    What? There’s no Santa? Does the FTC know this? Mike & Brent, you need to get on this.
    immediately and report back.

    You know what Mesha…you NAILED this and oddly the Santa quote really resonated for me (the above joke aside) this whole MLM system is REALLY like believing in Santa and discovering that you have been lied to for years. Of course the motivation for having us believe is entirely different in each case, one is loving and kind, the other is evil and greedy.

    When I was involved with Monavie I think the most perplexing thing to me was how they took the information gleaned from the “self help ” industries and manipulated that information into a fierce and undeserving devotion to them, not to yourself. I still believe that people who want to achieve realistic success in ANYTHING (and I wish to make it clear that money and “success” are not interchangeable words) in life, need to believe in themselves wholeheartedly and have a true sense of conviction that you CAN do it but this shouldn’t benefit someone else unless you INTEND it to (like raising money for breast cancer research etc.). This is where the lines get blurred with MLMs. They pretend like these principals help make YOU a better person but their true intention is to have you believe in yourself in order to help them fatten their bank accounts, while yours becomes anorexic.

    Mesha, keep writing and believing in yourself. I can see that you will achieve your own version of success and have the benefit of a guilt free conscience too!! I have no doubt that TEAM/LIFE wanted to hang onto you due to the way that you express yourself but their loss is the real world’s gain. Now you are free to be MESHA!

  18. aurora permalink
    December 22, 2011 7:10 am

    This commenter requested that her comments be removed from this site.

  19. Speak Your Truth permalink
    December 22, 2011 8:40 am


    Lmao! “Who the hell creates these non-answers? Mlms are the ultimate in ‘you get a trophy just for playing’ bullshit as opposed to gettting it for actually winning.”

    That is histerical…of course it is the ‘gurus’ (cult leaders) who are the ONLY ones who have all the answers to lifes most perplexing questions! Just ask them they will tell you!

    You would think you succeeded in achieving olympic status by ‘showing up’ to their mind-numbing events! You are a ‘winner’ because you did. But we know who the real ‘winners’ and hero’s are. People like Mesha and all the rest who finally can snap out of it and realize it is nothing but a farce and then speak up to help others!

    Good to see you back and miiss your humor! 🙂

  20. Speak Your Truth permalink
    December 22, 2011 8:49 am


    They are always hanging on by the skin of their teeth..’positioning themselves’, so they don’t get caught! But it doesn’t mean if the right authority investigates and goes back far enough, that they wouldn’t find… they weren’t always ‘covered’ and under the law!

  21. Freedomhaha permalink
    December 22, 2011 12:15 pm

    To the posters that said the books are awesome later with a clear head I totally agree. This might be a stretch as well, but I honestly think that if you knew nothing of the business and did not join the business LLR and LIFE books would be great reads as well. However, I threw them both out of my house when I quit because of the two scam artists (authors).

  22. brent hansen permalink
    December 22, 2011 1:13 pm

    Thank you for being willing to share your experience as well as your perspective. Thank you as well to all of you who have commented I have been able to glean some incredible nuggets from this thread. There are several points made that I would like to comment on as well.

    Mesha, you wrote,

    “I am still trying to sort through all the noise in my head… the confusion… the mixture of events… the anger…. guilt. Feeling like an idiot…. and the yearning for something I know I can never have.”

    Mesha, I can relate to the noise, the confusion and the mixed emotions, but I want you to know that the dreams and reasons you have cited as reasons for joining Team in the first place come from a Divine source, and that you would not have been given those dreams without a way of having them. Therefore my advice to you would be to do as Hershall has done and simply apply the principles you have learned in the pursuit of a worthwhile opportunity.

    You also wrote,

    “I have always yearned to make a difference in the world, to set myself apart, and not do what everyone else was doing. I never considered just not working but I have never wanted to work in the same job until retirement. Nor did I want to have as much debt as my parents.”

    I want you to know and understand that you are not unlike the rest of us here on this blog. Most of us got involved because of these exact same reasons. We heard the message which made us believe there was a way, we just did not recognize the fact that the message and the vehicle did not match.

    That is the problem with product based pyramid schemes, they all take a lie and wrap it in a thousand truths, therefore making discernment very difficult. Every principle taught from a stage resonates to our core, because each one of us has basic needs and desires. Who doesn’t want to help others, meet great people or become financially secure? The professional marketers know this, and that becomes the entire focus of their marketing efforts. Most professionals I have met or spoken with do not even understand the compensation plan from which they hope to earn, so they focus on spin, hype, rhetoric or smoke and mirrors.
    I am glad for you sake you were able to see through this and cut the string before you spent thousands of dollars and years pursuing the dream most can never obtain. I was 25 yrs old, newly married with a one month old baby when I was first introduced to the concept, and it took me until 37 to realize the scam, and until 40 to figure it all out. My hat is off to you.

    You also wrote,

    “I didn’t have anything else to offer. If I knocked TEAM, what other solution was I going to come up with that offered the same kind of opportunity?”

    In words, Team may be offering an opportunity but in all reality, it is not an opportunity at all. One definition of opportunity is this: “A favorable or advantageous circumstance or combination of circumstances.” There is nothing favorable nor advantageous by joining Team. As you can read from the posts of many of us here, our favorable and advantageous circumstances began when we left Team. I do however want you to know that I believe that your solution is out there merely waiting for you to figure it out, and that your ‘opportunity’ will come. Just don’t give up and more importantly make sure you get your information from a correct source.

    Someone here mentioned the fact that success and money are not necessarily connected, and I now believe that more than ever before. Money is merely a by-product of success, meaning we work to become successful in all areas in our life, and the money follows. The Divine source I mentioned earlier wants to make sure that we will be good stewards before entrusting us with financial resources. Any wealth acquired by ill-gotten gains will be fleeting at best. This could not be better witnessed than within the articles on this blog. Why do you think many of the PC and RT have landed in financial hardships? It is simple, ill-gotten gains. Why do you think the Team needs to go from one model to another? It is simple, ill-gotten gains. Nothing can last long term if it is not built upon a solid, bedrock foundation of truth, and nowhere does anything that Team has done meet that requirement. Life will grow for a while, and then you will see a similar fate come to them. It may be 5 or 10 years down the road, or it may be less, but it is inevitable.

    Congratulations for being so wise at such a young age and best wishes for a fantastic future. Thanks again for sharing.

    [Editor’s note: Added blockquotes]

  23. December 22, 2011 10:04 pm

    But what ever you do, do not rebut the naysayers they will threaten you.

  24. webelieved permalink
    December 23, 2011 1:03 am

    Michael – Huh?
    Did you mean pro-team loyalists will threaten you?

  25. Sanity Prevails permalink
    December 23, 2011 8:32 am

    Like everybody else, I was plugged into the system for 3 years. I was not getting close to the carrot of a ‘3-5 year plan’. The business model is good but the business lacks transparency.
    One of the incidents that happened was for my ‘downline’ friend who nearly lost his job because he started talking about Amway with the clients at his job. When I called my upline to ask how do we save this guy and what do we do with his job; I was aghast by the reply “You cannot put yourself in everybody’s shoes. He will figure out a way. You do not do anything. If he comes to you, ask him to find another job.” I was thinking to myself that one day I could get the same reply if I am put through a similar scenario. He is supposed to be my friend more than a downline. In my opinion, all friends help figure out a collective solution as the person usually is struck by something big that prevents him/her to think coherently. Ambots, however, talk about making friends first before bringing them to the business. Total clash of thoughts in what is preached and what is done.
    In essence, this “legal, ethical, moral business” had a sharp contrast to my personal ethical and moral values.
    In my opinion, it is safe to quit Amway and is safer to stop thinking about the word in your lifetime. Frees a lot of space in your brain.

  26. Mike Collins permalink
    December 23, 2011 9:51 am

    @Michael Collins: mikey, this is the real Michael Collins speaking. Quit posting your ridiculous posts and act like a man instead of acting like a juvenile.

    Nobody here has threatened you. You are the one who issued the invitation for one of us to come up to chicago and whip your ass. What I find pathetic is that you have no idea who you are talking to on this thread. You have no idea the background some of these people have.

    The only person that even responded in kind to your stupid little rant was Vogel. And if it ever came down to it my money would be on him. Not some decieved little bugger the likes of you issuing empty threats over the internet. GROW UP!

    No go away little pest……..unless of course to care to engage in some intelligent dialogue.

  27. webelieved permalink
    December 23, 2011 10:02 am

    Maybe Amthrax can let us know by the ip address when the good/real Mike Collins is speaking aka Brent Hansen’s friend, the person with integrity. Not the idiot that threatened people!

  28. I QUIT (and glad I did) permalink
    December 23, 2011 11:04 am

    Way to go Mike. I saw the comment from the mosquito earlier but decided to refrain from replying. Thanks for giving it a good swat.

  29. Mike Collins permalink
    December 23, 2011 11:14 am

    Yes, sometimes a little pest repellant is in order….

  30. Mike Collins permalink
    December 23, 2011 11:15 am

    I mean repellent….

  31. Speak Your Truth permalink
    December 23, 2011 11:22 am

    I think little ‘mikey’ needs to lay off the crack pipe. Who threatened who? I realize it is Too much doubt that he is stuggling with… ‘truth overload’… for him to handle. The last I knew he said he wasn’t coming back. Just another LIEfer who can’t keep his word!

  32. ExAmbot permalink
    December 23, 2011 11:22 am

    Do yo’ll notice the classic symptoms of cognitive dissonance in Micheal Collins’ ignominious comment above and else where? He is shamefully silent and lacks an attempted rebuttal/rejoinder for or otherwise, on the issues raised by Mesha in a classic MLM parlance to ignore any truth that does not conform to the pretend business’ “truth.” I am sure though, in his stance of pro MLM, his comments are having the opposite effect of helping lift the blinding veil one more notch, off of another Mesha who’s here seeking a glimmer of truth and to see through the predatory, pernicious MLM “industry” crap.

    If this spurious independent business owner Michael Collins cannot propagate adult content could somebody shoo him to where the 8 yo play ground is at?!! Thank you!

    Now Mesha and other adults you were saying…

  33. brent hansen permalink
    December 23, 2011 12:50 pm


    Where is your rebuttal? I am still waiting to see that. Perhaps you need a definition Mikey because a threat is really not what most people would call a rebuttal. Here is a definition of a rebuttal, just for you:

    ” A rebuttal is a form of evidence that is presented to contradict or nullify other evidence that has been presented by an adverse party.”

    Where is the evidence that nullifies what anyone here has said? There is plenty of evidence on this blog to back up what has been written. There is written testimony, mathematical evidence, compelling personal stories and much more. Your supposed evidence was a mere threat saying that you have ‘deep’ pockets, and that if we fly up you will give us the beat down. Is that truly evidence?

    Why not just address the issues, and keep your emotions and love of Team at bay? Most of us here are level minded and more than willing to listen to logic, please provide that and we promise to be nice, (I do anyway, can’t speak for the bully Michael Collins, Vogel or the rest) hahaha!

    Why don’t you educate us about the finer points of the Life compensation plan, or tell us how big of a team you have? Or why don’t you take up the real man’s challenge and give us your true numbers? We know that over 95% of the people in your team are losing money each and every month. Let talk about that instead of the idle threats and ridiculous conversation.

  34. December 23, 2011 1:20 pm

    Real Mike Collins goes by Mike Collins; the other goes by Michael Collins. The latter also posts a link (on his name) to his Facebook profile.

  35. "Meshai" permalink
    December 23, 2011 6:42 pm

    Hey everyone,
    Thank you so much for your kind words and feed back. It is very reassuring to know that I am not alone. You have no idea how much this means to me. When I was trying to make the decision to stay or leave, I honestly thought for a while that I was losing my mind… or developing a mental illness.

    I am shocked that I could become so twisted up and confused after only a short period of time around this nonsense called TEAM. Makes me wonder if I am feeble minded, but I can say that I am coming out of this experience a much wiser and stronger person.

    As for my friend, I still do not know what to do about her. We are still friends- surprisingly- but it was very frustrating to try to talk to her about my reasons for leaving. It was like talking to a brick wall. I don’t want to push the subject too hard but don’t want to just sit back and do nothing either.

    “The two trains of thought were distinct again instead of trying to fight each other. Time to fish or cut bait.”

    This quote really resonated with me. The confusion I went through was exactly like having two different trains of thought fighting inside my mind.

    @Humiliated- When I quit, they tried to get me to go back to more meetings!! Ugh!! No way no how… trifling! I will not get within a mile of another meeting, book, or cd for if I look back I might very well get turned into a pillar of salt.

    @ Mike Collins- took me a while to figure out that you were the real Mike! Lol. At first I had no idea what was going on.

    @ Michael Collins- What are you talking about??! I’m not threatening you.

  36. brent hansen permalink
    December 23, 2011 7:48 pm

    @Sanity Prevails, I am curious to know what makes you think the business model is ‘good’?

  37. Freedomhaha permalink
    December 23, 2011 8:06 pm

    Thanks for sharing. I can relate to when you said “I was surprised how quickly it took for me to get caught up in the nonsense called TEAM”. Stepping away from it I almost feel like I don’t know that person who was a walking talking CD. I have tried to keep the book knowledge and just direct it towards real business and my career.

    God bless everyone on this blog this Christmas season. I believe that you are doing the work of the Lord. This blog (truth) WILL prevail in the end!

  38. Speak Your Truth permalink
    December 23, 2011 8:21 pm

    I second that Freedomhaha…I would love to send a blessing to all my ‘friends’ on here. May all of you have the most abundantly blessed Christmas and the happiest New Year!

    You all have blessed me in so many ways and I am so grateful.

    And a special Christmas blessing to Amthrax; who has made it all happen! 🙂

    Many blessings to all and Merry Christmas!!!!

  39. "Meshai" permalink
    December 23, 2011 8:34 pm

    Merry Christmas to everyone here as well!! 🙂

  40. ExAmbot permalink
    December 23, 2011 9:35 pm

    @Sanity Prevails, “The business model is good…”

    I take exception to your statement. Further, I second brent hansen’s question above, so please enlighten us and expound on your statement or withdraw it! Lest it gives an implied endorsement to another Meisha of this cult and others of similar ilk.

  41. aurora permalink
    December 24, 2011 6:26 am

    This commenter requested that her comments be removed from this site.

  42. webelieved permalink
    December 24, 2011 8:09 am

    Good to see you Aurora! 🙂
    May we all continue to be a blessing of truth to others and may the Lord bless you all in the new year to come !
    Merry Christmas everyone!

  43. humiliated permalink
    December 24, 2011 9:05 am

    Michael Collins, you are truly remarkable. You PHYSICALLY threatened people on this site and on the Salt Lake Tribune site and you are accusing US of this behavior? Over on the Juice Scam site the FBI had to become involved because of similar threats so please, mind your manners or check yourself into a psychiatric institution forthwith.

    To the rest of you… may the New Year bring all of the joy, love & peace (that is TRUE success) that you all deserve! You are all giving such a gift to the world in sharing your stories, providing others with the hope and clarity that they need. Have a VERY MERRY CHRISTMAS!!

  44. Arturo permalink
    December 24, 2011 11:24 am

    Humiliated, the FBI had to get involved over on the Juice Scam site because of threats made at others? Tell us more. I see Orrin’s leadership training and the 8F’s are really making a difference and changing the country, just not for the better. Whoever at the FBI investigated should also look at the hate speech on Qrush. This should also be reported to Anderson Cooper at CNN who did a special report on bullying and hate speech against children and others in our country. Anderson nailed a local politician in Michigan who was using the same type of Qrush hate speech while attacking a University of Michigan student.

    LieF and their leaders openly tell the world they want to grow and have more influence in our country and that should concern everyone. 99.9% of the people working with this organization have negative results financially and in many other ways. The leaders don’t create positive change in communities but the opposite. We don’t need to listen to their words because we can see their actions. Their actions show they have no moral compass. They hide behind what looks like great values and a family first agenda but they are rotten at the core. America does not need their cult, fake leadership and plagiarized materials.

  45. Vogel permalink
    December 24, 2011 11:59 am

    Well said Arturo.

    And Merry Christmas/Happy Holidays to everyone in the Amthrax community. It’s been one heck of a year hasn’t it? I’m glad to know you all.

  46. humiliated permalink
    December 24, 2011 12:50 pm

    Arturo, one MV distributor in particular was threatening JS. Here is the thread.

  47. not signed up yet permalink
    December 24, 2011 8:49 pm


    You have nothing to be guilty about. My experience with TEAM was a lot like yours only I didnt sign up for anything.

    I have a business ( a legitimate one) where I trade time for moeny and its working out pretty good.

    TEAM is full of it when they say you get paid when you help someone. You get paid when you sell CDs books, and seminar tickets. You dont get paid to STP 15 hours a month. You dont get paid to attend a 6 hour seminar and you dont get paid for all the actual work you have to do to build your team.

    I was loaned a ton of CDs. I heard nothing in there about how to improve your life, finances, relation ship or anything else. Listen to any TEAM Cd and see how many times they mention getting to Tuesday nights the Saturday seminars and the Majors. Its alot.

    I attempted to ask real business questions like not for income disclosure but fora profit and loss statement for a few quarters, I asked about accouting practices and controlling costs. Not personal statements form team, but from TEAM the company.

    My responses were deflected and that sent up red flags.

    I am glad you saw through this for what it truly is.

  48. ExAmbot permalink
    December 24, 2011 8:55 pm

    I just want to give a big shout out to everyone here. Yo’ll came through for me a little over a year ago when I was where Meisha was/is now. THANK YOU! for your tireless efforts, for exposing the truth, for sharing lots of useful information and it was all free!

    THANK YOU ALL for helping to free me from the shackles of the pernicious, predatory MLMs – scAmway/BWW.

    A special thank you to Amthrax for a job well done, thus far and to come. Keep it up!

    Merry Christmas everyone and a happy and prosperous 2012 and beyond!

  49. brent hansen permalink
    December 25, 2011 10:57 am

    Not signed up yet,
    Sounds like you asked the questions any normal entrepreneur would ask before beginning any business venture. Simple but brilliant statement!

  50. npt signed up yet permalink
    December 26, 2011 8:04 am


    Yeah. I got a little suspicious when I listened to the Cds and there wasnt one sound business principle in them. It was all about team.

    I couldnt even get answers to questions like whats the profit margin on a case of MV? Or whats the commission on CDs or selling a seminar ticket?

    I am still waiting for an answer that makes sense.

  51. Meshai permalink
    December 27, 2011 7:39 pm

    More TEAM things that just didn’t make sense:

    -Those who did’nt want to join were treated like they had no goals, were lazy, or crazy. The fault was with them. If I didn’t have the results I wanted in my’ business’ then I must have a problem. The system is infailable.But if the fault lies with everyone who didn’t join , then how can it be my fault?

    -The system never taught me how to gain retail customers.

    -TEAM always criticised JOBs and traditional business owners citing their lack of freedom, and reliance upon someone else to determine their paycheck. They say that with TEAM , the amount of work you do determines your pay, but is this really true? In TEAM an IBO is relying upon the recruiting abilities of their downline, nor can you choose all your ‘business partners that your downline may choose.

    -How exactly are 50- 200 dollar LIFE packages recession proof?

    -Sure these people have’ fruit on the tree’but we have to ask ourselves where they got it from. Would it still be good business if someone gave me money and I used their own money as proof that they should give me more money?!

  52. Meshai permalink
    December 27, 2011 7:47 pm

    Also, why were they always talking to the new person in the room at opens?? What about those who were beginning to feel the effects of financial freedom? Where were those people?

  53. December 28, 2011 6:42 am

    @not signed up yet

    Actually you will never get answers to those common sense questions, to sustain the mlm “industry” nobody does.

    The whole idea about MO is to get newbies onto the “system” i.e. cds, books, seminars, etc, and to keep them on it, and to have them stay on for as long as is possible. For many years kingpins denied anybody ever made money from these indoctrination tools. The internet through blogs like this changed that. They admitted they have a “tool break” – basically an attempt to minimize for ambots pacification, the real profits from these crap. The truth is anything but. For instance BWW diamonds collect $60 ($40?) per each $110 ticket to a major function, in addition to a speaking pay of I guess $20k. In reality scAmway diamonds make 50-75% of their incomes from the system, sometimes, and quite often way more for some.

    The ambots are taught idiotic nonsense such as if the dream is big enough the facts don’t count. Statements like this are designed to teach MLMbots blind adherence and to ignore real, common sense business questions like costs vs. income, P&L statements, etc. Teaching ambots business truth is dangerous to kingpin’s gravy train as it will open the former’s eyes.

    MLMs create a closed market swindles as little retail is done to the general public. This propagates transference of wealth from the lowly ambots to the top of the pyramid kingpins, the expensive MLM products/services and system of tools being the means through which this is accomplished. Thus, MLMs give MLMbots a sense of business but it’s really a pretend business while the “industry” thrives on MLMbots being ignorant to real business questions such as you asked, for as long as is possible, and it’s therefore a predatory, pernicious & a pretend “industry.”

  54. TruthSeeker permalink
    December 28, 2011 8:29 am

    ExAmbot, I couldn’t agree more with you. If MLM companies were actually forced to show a true customer to distributor ratio, the world would know that all of these models are merely fueled by internal consumption.

    Many MLMs skirt this issue with a simple redefinition of the word distributor, thus calling their distributors customers. If they were forced to operate as true businesses in the free market system, they would collapse. No one would be purchasing $40 a bottle juice or overpriced anything, commerce occurs where value and price meet, and that rule does not apply in MLM. It cannot apply because there is always a ‘opportunity’ attached to the product. Thus the kingpins are able to refer to product sales as ‘investments’ what a joke!

    Interesting enough, there is a company called ecosway a very interesting international business model that is now surfacing in the U.S. they actually have stores in strip malls near local Walmarts. Anyone can shop there, member or not, but in order to get a discount they must enroll as a distributor and may earn by sending others to shop there. I am not condoning nor promoting this company, but I find it very interesting.
    I have traveled the world, and it if very interesting how the good ol U.S. has the most liberal MLM laws of anywhere I have ever been. The lobby is totally corrupt and flush with dollars from its MLM supporters who are part of the DSA.

  55. What the??? permalink
    December 28, 2011 9:29 am

    Question about the DSA. The MLM I was involved with (Reliv) was very proud and open about their DSA membership. I looked MV, TEAM and LIFE up on the DSA member directory and couldn’t find them. All the MLMs I’ve known are DSA members (Mary Kay, Amway, Pampered Chef, etc). Was wondering if any of you have any insight on DSA membership – like why all the others join, but MV/TEAM/LIFE doesn’t.

  56. December 28, 2011 12:10 pm

    TEAM/LIEf are a motivation org. (M.O.) peddlers. In DSA defination I think they cannot join because they do not carry a product/service per se like regular MLM companies, to “directly” offer for sale.

    I don’t know why MV is not but I am sure we will find out shortly.

  57. What the??? permalink
    December 28, 2011 2:04 pm

    So, it sounds like what you are saying is that TEAM/LIFE can’t join DSA because they don’t have a real product. And, this is legal? And, not a pyramid scheme?

  58. ExAmbot permalink
    December 28, 2011 9:12 pm

    MO are pure pyramids, no ifs or buts. They claim to offer a function of support to MLMbots within an MLM company, thus guaranteeing their survival. You can also rightly say the take cover under the umbrella of an MLM company. Essentially therefore, they are attached to MLM companies while wrapped in this lingo which you probably have heard before – training and support organization, motivation and education group, provide education and mentorship, etc. I believe this is how they manage to stay under and away, from a direct FTC radar.

    In the case of scAmway some of these MO generate huge incomes for the top guys, i.e. kingpins, to the tune of 50-75% or more, than the income earned from the former. Your guess as to the source of the famous MLM riches is good :- it’s the MLMbots. Thus, MLMs in reality are a wealth transfer system from the MLMbots to both kingpins and MLM owners.

    Google for “directly speaking” talks done by Rich Devos in 1982 expressing his displeasure/frustration about this fact.

    MO are run like mafia outfits well outside of the control of the “mother” MLM company. Once you are a kingpin you have to toe the line else you risk getting cutoff from the MO gravy train. So it’s too much to loose after having put together a group so most of these guys shut up, toe the line and worship the main kingpin. Some who dared to speak got kicked out and sued their upline kingpins – you can find these legal tussles on the web.

    Others just want to own the pie so they break away to form their own MO. So some MLM companies can have quite a few of these MOs such as scAmway.

    Are you a member of an MO? If so which one?

  59. ExAmbot permalink
    December 28, 2011 9:19 pm

    Have you read the free ebook “Merchants of Deception” by Eric Scheibeler?

  60. ExAmbot permalink
    December 28, 2011 9:26 pm


    I gave a cursory look at the the company you mentioned and I noticed there are no prices indicated. My guess is it’s just another MLM attempting to be different. I will give it more time later and figure out how and where they are taking their MLMbots, because I am sure somewhere they are, all MLMs do anyaway.

  61. webelieved permalink
    December 29, 2011 5:07 am

    In the case of Team and Orrin Woodward the tool money was MUCH more than the income from Amway even for leaders lower than the diamond level. Once you got to turbo 25 you could get paid but it wasn’t promoted/explained up front of course. Team wasn’t an mlm at the time, they were a motivational organization for Amway, so they couldn’t join the DSA. Now I would guess they could join the DSA as now that they made their tool company into an “MLM” and the main product.
    By the way there is a link on the right for a free download of the book Merchants of Deception. What a great book! Kudos to Eric Schreibler and all of you for having the guts to tell the truth!

  62. webelieved permalink
    December 29, 2011 5:33 am

    “MO (motivational organizations) are run like mafia outfits well outside of the control of the “mother” MLM company. Once you are a kingpin you have to toe the line else you risk getting cutoff from the MO gravy train. So it’s too much to loose after having put together a group so most of these guys shut up, toe the line and worship the main kingpin. Some who dared to speak got kicked out…” -ExAmbot

    Wow if that isn’t the truth. That is how Team is run behind the scenes . Orrin is a Kingpin from Amway and if you question anything he or his PC does, they will destroy you and your business. This will happen especially if you are a leader and have influence in the Team. 7 guys are in charge of everyone’s livelyhood and all the decision making. If you are not a PC your opinion doesn’t matter even at the Round Table level.

    Now that Team leadership has no mlm company policing it, the atrocities against distributors will run even more rampant. Just look at what recently happened to Mike and Christie Raatz. They recieved a text message from their “bestfriend” Tim Marks telling them they were voted out of Team profit sharing, all because they asked the team office to explain how they were paid and told Tim they needed to take a break!? How’s that for dedication and loyalty! What a great way for Team LIFE to treat distributors that built communities for over a decade, for a supposedly passive, residual income! I wonder which of Tim’s favorite distributors recieved a decade worth of the Raatz system counts and tickets?

    What honorable men of integrity they are……
    With friends like that who needs enemies?

  63. humiliated permalink
    December 29, 2011 7:34 am

    @what the, Monavie was apparently denied membership into the DSA as they raided Amway for membership and Amway is one of the largest “contributors” to the DSA. Troy Dooley (sock puppet for the MLM industry) spins it as if the DSA denied them on some moral high ground but the reality is that Amway has probably threatened them with leaving if they let MV in.

    The DSA is simply a lobby group for the MLM industry yet they active as if they are a regulating force in the industry. The DSA is working to relax the rules of these MLMS (aka Pyramid schemes) even further so that more people will get hurt. In my view, if a company is a member of the DSA it just means they have managed to break the rules/laws without being detected and the DSA knows this, they don’t want a liability on their hands.

    I think Mike attached a good article on the DSA but I can’t locate it anywhere. Mike? Amthrax?

  64. December 29, 2011 7:47 am

    Perhaps you’re referring to this comment made by Brent:

    Very interesting historical background on the Deceptive Selling Alliance if anyone cares to read it.

  65. What the??? permalink
    December 29, 2011 9:01 am

    Thanks for the info. I’ll take a look at the Merchants of Deception book. I have a friend who is into TEAM/LIEf who goes to my church. He’s been getting his LIEf friends involved in the church. Know another lady who is involved in LIEf who is very involved in local preschool mom’s group. Was told by other friend that she went “power player” recently. I don’t know what that means, but it can’t be good. Don’t need these people victimizing the community. I told the friend who had been telling me about LIEf that I had already been burned once by MLM and we couldn’t be friends if he kept talking about it.

  66. December 29, 2011 9:08 am

    Wow, that sounds like infilterating, I do know my upline was always sitting everywhere in the church to get to know people and get their numbers so that she can show them “The Plan” but wow – getting existing TEAMsters to join that church just to get new members? That is a new low there. Disgusting. Perhaps you should warn the Reverend or Overseer whowever-in-charge. Show him this website.

  67. December 29, 2011 10:18 am

    @What the??? To learn more about Power Player, read this post: How To Earn Tool Income and Become a Director on Orrin Woodward’s TEAM

    In the transition between MonaVie to LIFE, some things may have changed slightly, but it should still bring you up to speed with the terminology you’re hearing.

  68. What the??? permalink
    December 29, 2011 10:54 am

    I’ve only been approached about it by one person, and it was introduced to me as a “ministry”. Fortunately, I was already devoting time to a ligitimate ministry and wasn’t interested in another one. I slowly figured out over time that this “ministry” that he kept talking about was really just an MLM scam!

    I’m just concerned about it getting infiltrated in my church – especially since they are peddling it as a “ministry”. I’ve never been approached about it by the power player lady, but she comes to our church. The pastor’s daughter babysits her kids – the kids even stayed with the pastor’s daughter and son-in-law for the weekend so mr. and mrs. power player could go to the big powwow in the fall in Ohio. Now that I am seeing what all this is about, just seeing her from a distance disgusts me. I know the pastor is pretty wise about this kind of thing, but maybe not others in the church.

  69. December 29, 2011 11:39 am

    @What the??? – Have you considered taking your concerns over to the pastor?

  70. What the??? permalink
    December 29, 2011 11:57 am

    Yes, I’ve considered that. What’s holding me back is how to present it in a way that doesn’t come off as “tattling” or butting my nose into other people’s business.

  71. December 29, 2011 12:17 pm

    @What the??? You could simply ask your pastor what the church’s policy on soliciting church members for outside business opportunities. If it’s relevant, you can raise your experience with Reliv with him as an example of why this is a bad thing to allow.

  72. December 29, 2011 1:00 pm

    I spoke to the Reverend at mine/my husband’s church and also the Reverend at the church my upline goes to (but that’s because I was going to my upline’s church for 2 years anyway) and I shared my story. Both of them said they’ve become aware of it and the Rev at my current church said she’s been approached by my upline. I’m not sure how they’re combatting this TEAM thing here in Halifax, though. Anyway, I’m not sure how much help this would be, but I hope it encourages you to speak to someone in authority. Even if you don’t get much of a response at least they know, right?

  73. What the??? permalink
    December 29, 2011 5:35 pm

    Well, just thought I’d report back that I called the pastor about it. He didn’t know this was going on, hadn’t even heard of LIEf. He said that he typically leaves stuff like this alone until it gets to be a problem – like someone using the church directory as a contact list.

  74. December 29, 2011 10:21 pm

    @webelieved and
    @What the???

    Whoa! Thanx for sharing that about TEAM/LIEf. I am ex BWW so I have no first hand idea about TEAM crap & it’s inner workings. Amazing that they have evolved into an MLM. Think about it for what purpose did TEAM evolve other than to shaft unsuspecting TEAMbots on the pretense of offering them “help” (a most misused word in MLM world) to build the “business.”

    Your comments really got me thinking. First tho’ let me apologize for being long winded and for grammartical errors. I realize people are reading this post for innumerable reasons/interests. So I will just share my truth and hope it will create critical questions to cause another Meishai, somebody, to research and make their own conclusion. I take pleasure in exposing truth, none in bashing persons, yet some though really do deserve that.

    If you strip bare TEAM’s mlm camouflage you see it’s just an MO like all others, to sell and resell motivation in the form of books, cds, meetings, etc. There’s nothing special about that that it requires to be organized in multi levels for this crap to be purchased/sold and it’s not anything TEAMbots could not find at any bookstore at better prices anyway. Perhaps you can also see it’s an outfit designed to provide income to it’s organizers and those in their favor all at the expense of the lowly teambots. Actually isn’t that the main reason MO exist? It’s beyond belief that someone can run such an outfit under the nose of the law and that TEAMbots can buy into this lie. Selling motivation is not, and should not be an organized business. It’s just a racket.

    Even though TEAM is an mlm without attaching itself to ahem… a product based mlm it would be treading on precarious grounds with the feds. Let me attempt to say this in different ways :-
    -selling motivation as an mlm organization is not a legal business, it has no basis for a legal business.
    -You can’t legally have an mlm to sell nothing else but motivation.
    -An mlm formulated for the purpose of selling motivation cannot and should not, legally stand on its own.
    -MO cartels create a side business to their mother mlm companies. The latter don’t like it in some cases and definately neither do the feds.
    -Therefore, suffice to say the justified legal existence of an MO is contigent upon a mother MLM corp. AFAIK to both the feds and the mlm corp. independent tool cartels are a no no as a side business of an MLM corp.

    BECAUSE IN MY SIMPLISTIC UNDERSTANDING ADVANCE FEE CARTELS ARE ILLEGAL! or let’s just call them ponzi schemes. Again listen to “Directly Speaking” by Rich Devos. They do find ways to skirt around legal requirements.

    So MO cartels mask their going ons behind banners such as support and educational training organizations. In reality it’s a very lucrative side business for the organizers and their henchmen. Consider Dexter Yaeger was reputed to be pulling in $40+ million in the early 90’s. I am not sure (his mlm income or his entire mlm intake???) The point is any which way you look at it there’s a huge side business there that far surpases the mother MLM company’s income, existence of which these kingpins denied for the longest time. The still refuse to publicly admit to the entirety of the side businesses. This crap comes to light after they start suing each other for the tool spoils. We can all thank the internet otherwise it would still be dark ages in the totolitarian, information control, MLM world.

    In a nutshell all mlmbots should know they are not in the business of a particular mlm’s products and/or services, they are in the business of recruiting and training. MLM companies let their annointed kingpins get away with some stuff as the latter have humangoes organizations who provide a wide customer base for their products i.e. they are successiful recruiters and trainers. MLM owners and kingpins call their underlings IBO’s but you and I know them as MLMbots, you know, the ones who have been lied to to believe they are business owners, the next platinums, emeralds, diamonds, etc.

    Really if you think about it mlmbots are just un-salaried commission sales agents. It’s just like they say they don’t get paid unless the product moves, be it MLM product or MO product. Unforunately that is true and limited to mlmbots only. Kingpins and those ascending the totem pole (platinums etc,) get paid “tool break” and eventually huge incomes at kingpin levels by the MOs as its product is bought by the MObots – here insert those weekly cd’s, book of the month, tickets to seminars, etc. Repeat – this is a very lucrative side business.

    The loud-mouthed “scAmway did $8 billion” or “MonaVie did $2 billion” mlm adherent foot soldier is the only one who’s not getting paid and is actually getting shafted by both the MLM owners and the kingpins. His/her head is buried deep in their a$$ s/he doesn’t see how his/her handlers are playing this game around him/her. From now on everytime you when you hear a similar statment by whoever bot you will know how sorry I feel for these hapless chaps – sure they did those billions, but what did those figures do for you? As for the “successiful” platinums, emeralds, diamonds, etc the bigger the pin the more disdain and disrespect I have for those because it means they have scammed that many more poor souls.

    In the open market MLM over priced products cannot compete. You see real businesses market products. To “market” their products MLMs create cultic groups to market to. They are notorious for creating artificial needs for their products within these groups, then attach an “opportunity” to the products. MLM adherents see the opportunity and hardly the product price, involvement cost, cult practices, abuses, inter alia. You want proof – how much product do mlm “quiters” continue to purchase after they quit?

    Success in MLM pretend “industry” is by creating a good camouflage, throwing in we are a christian leaders, family oriented business, take back our country, free enterprise, compassionate capitalism crap, pay off the politicians, control i.e. limit access to information for followers, harass critics and and those who dissent/speak out by instigating frivoulous, expensive, bankrupting lawsuits, have full knowledge that the feds are under resourced and it takes them time to catch up with flagrant abusers, so to remain safe stay just below that level of attention. This is how cult masters continue to run an illegal mlm while some people keep wondering how (and the rest of us post exposés taking steps to avoiding potentially crippling, punitive, frivolous lawsuits.) Well it’s apparent why Mr. Bumble said that the law is an ass, isn’t it?

    At some point another kingpin will want to own their own pie so he/she and their henchmen will break away to form their own competing MO still under the mother MLM or they could dislodge and move to another MLM corp. Sounds familiar?

    MLMs and MO are just cartel systems that achieve wealth transfer from their adherents to mlm owners and MO kingpins. Sad though, is the trail of financial ruin and destroyed lives that litter MLM world.

  75. December 29, 2011 10:26 pm

    @webelieved said…
    “Just look at what recently happened to Mike and Christie Raatz.”

    I have no idea who those are but being MLM world I gather it must be one of two things. They were probably nice people who were mislead and unknowingly mislead others and created a group so they continued to be leaders on the TEAM totem pole. Or when they went in deep they knew what was going on and decided to continue shafting er…misleading others.

    Either way fate conspired to get them out before doing too much damage than they had already done. They experienced the nature and inners of the racketeering cartels that MOs are – MLM world is really a doggy dog world or should I say er…mlm “Industry!”

  76. Sciff permalink
    January 10, 2012 1:16 pm

    If TEAM Life was really a scam, then how come I made more doh three months in a row already from $154 off of purchasing a $53 CD package (with everyone’s points on the down line), $322 the second month and waiting on the third just by keeping active at it and really getting the people that are doing the same thing. If LIFE is such a scam, then how come I am getting results from this. My friend Dawson started a few people out at his warehouse and we are making the doh now. Scams dont pay money out, this is not a scam, all it takes is monthly purchases of a $53 to $58 package of CDs and a book and all the friends, family and whoever to keep active. A scam doesnt pay you money for purchasing through that company…I can wait to see my next paycheck that comes in on the 20th of each month. If it was a scam, then how come when i was with TEAM Monavie for five years and TEAM LIFE for two months and making nearly as much as donating plasma does on a monthly basis, and the money each month is better than the previous month…Scam, yeah right

  77. Speak Your Truth permalink
    January 10, 2012 2:06 pm


    You should study up on scams, no one said they do not pay, most definitely they pay the the Lief’s Analysis of the Pay Plan and P&P’s…. the Facts and numbers or the ‘Figures don’t lie’.. post on here!

    Also, what has been all your expsenses…gas, tickets, food, hotels…and all the other exspenses like the $135 to get started all xtra tools you have been sucked into buying…see you aren’t fooling us with your partial story…nice

    Educate up on Bernie Madoff or watch American Greed….your eyes will be opened and you could educate yourself self on scams and scammers!

    And I am with you… ‘scam….yea right; it certainly is’!

  78. webelieved permalink
    January 10, 2012 2:13 pm

    When Team PC have stolen the so called residual income from their own leaders after builing the community for years, I would say that is a scam!
    It now states they can do it to you in their new(old) LIFE Policies and Procedures, but unfortunately no one usually reads those.
    So my friend do you think it is right to promote the business as residual, pipeline, ongoing, passive, btype income to get people in and than take it away, for any reason, from someone who built it?
    A simple YES or NO will do.

  79. Brent H permalink
    January 10, 2012 2:33 pm

    Sciff, The real question is how many people are paying in to allow you to earn that money? There is money to be made in all MLMs but the ratio in yours is 21 to 1. Twenty one have to purchase a package in order for one to break even. That ratio never changes, period.

    If you are ok that 96% of your team can never break even, then you are headed for a lot of heartache. Nothing that requires a 96% failure rate can last long term. Enjoy the ride while its new.

  80. webelieved permalink
    January 10, 2012 5:01 pm

    Even if the Team were to pay you something, it is not and never will be residual. It is a build and replace business. They won’t tell you the quit/ attrition rate at meetings when they recruit you. Also the very nature of mlm is that your upline can ruin or steal your teams whenever they want or the company can change the game whenever they want to. You own nothing, SO YOU HAVE NO CONTROL OVER IT! It is NOT YOUR BUSINESS, it is theirs. Their own Policies and Procedures stop you from getting due process if something goes wrong after you do the work. Read it. Sorry but those are the facts.

  81. webelieved permalink
    January 10, 2012 5:02 pm

    Trust me there are many that would love to take ones teams and count them as their own, after using them for years of their work. It has been done many times it seems.

  82. Finally permalink
    January 10, 2012 5:54 pm

    Sciff, read up on Berni Madoff, for years his investors saw some kind of check and they believed, as do you………but wait, it will end. After six months you do not get the same money you are getting now unless you contribute 600 bucks to special tool purchases……did you read that in your paperwork????

  83. Speak Your Truth permalink
    January 10, 2012 11:25 pm

    Finally…What? You have to ‘contribute 600 bucks? Oh my….bet most don’t know that one, I didn’t! Do share more!

    I got a good one for ya all and what a coincidence, it just happened tonight…haha. I received a phone call from a gentlemen (restricted number mind you, that I would never answer, but thought it might be fun this one time) So, I answered and low and behold it was from the United States Government Dept. of something..I asked for him to repeat it twice, because it was a man from India (first clue) and I didn’t understand him. He repeated it again and I got the same thing… U.S Government Dept. of something.. again? Never did get it so he continued.

    Now I don’t know if I didn’t understand it again because my SCAM alarm was firing so loud or if it was the language barrier so I began to laugh out loud and said Huh ah…he proceeded with; we have $7000 dollars for YOU that you won’t have to pay something? Again.. I couldn’t tell if he said interest or what was said….I began to laugh even louder..Then silence…Wait…Wait..Mr. India.. He was gone. I wonder if I was disqualified because I was laughing and he thought this isn’t going to work…hahaha!! Then, I think the call ended or was it bad reception? I couldn’t tell so I hung up!! Hahahahaha!!!!

    Wait.. a.. minute….I wanted that 7 grand that I didn’t have to pay something.. hahah. I was just sure it was going to be granted to me, just because it was my lucky day.. And this Indian guy was out for my best interest, and wanted badly to give it to me.

    What do you think?

    There isn’t a ‘scam’ on the planet, that I am aware of that doesn’t involve $$$$, and the second biggest factor is TRUST.. Unless of course they use something like gold bars, or jewels, coins, fake paintings, etc..But all equates to ‘cash’ or so you think, but the ‘trust’ is always part of the plan. All scams are all about the money, and the majority is for the scammer…. but it is promised to you, me, and anyone else that has ‘sucker’ written on our forehead. Just kidding, some of them are cleverly designed and prey on our deepest desires…like helping people, improving ourselves and others, changing lives, charities…etc..Think Team for illustration

    To perpetrate an internal consumption scam you have got to get whoever you are scamming to trust you and believe there is a lot of money (for them) or whatever they desire the most (their dream) and even pay out some $$ to get people to believe there is a lot more where that came from, for ‘everyone’; otherwise give me one good reason why anyone would fall for it?

    Now I am aware that this particular phone scam was probably one where they would have wanted my SSN, bank account routing number…etc.; because I am sure they couldn’t wait to deposit that 7 grand right into my bank account..haha..But I will never know, because I never got to hear the rest of the ‘spiel’.

    Just thought I would share that opinions and experience. 🙂

  84. webelieved permalink
    January 11, 2012 4:32 am

    600 bucks? That is a minimum purchase required? I thought that was illegal?

  85. Mesha permalink
    March 22, 2012 10:19 pm

    May have something else to add to this. Wheels are turning.

  86. Gordon Freeman permalink
    May 5, 2012 3:29 am

    Regarding the “Why would you believe someone who posts anonymously?” question, the answer is simple. Whether or not a claim is made anonymously, the strength of your belief in it would correspond to the strength of the evidence supporting it. The notion that knowing the identity of the person making a claim automatically increases that claim’s plausibility is a form of appeal to authority, a very popular type of logical fallacy, especially on the far right.

  87. Freedomhaha permalink
    May 5, 2012 8:08 am

    I for one post anonymously because I don’t trust the PC. I was very, very low in the business, but now with my posting on here who knows what could happen? We both know that the PC is reading this (Hi Orrin!) and want to know who is posting.

  88. Ben Zuniga permalink
    January 8, 2013 10:38 pm

    I signed up for it a couple of years ago under my son. Although they strongly engourage you not to look into “negative” internet stories, I did. But, I also notice some stuff I didn’t like in their CD material. To make a long story short, I discovered discrepancies from story to story and their cult-like “community”. I quit throwing my money away early on and still managed to waste a total of about $1200 not including the juice and materials I purchased. I did keep good material not written by Orrin and the others. (Weird how they all worked together as engineers in the same company back in the day). I wish I could find a way to show my son the big mistake he’s made and drive a stake between him and team but, he’s bamboozled by these clowns. He’s geeting deeper and deeper into debt going to all these pep talk meetings and seminars…..what a waste.

  89. January 9, 2013 8:03 am

    @BenZuniga – Does your son respond better to information based on emotion or facts? Perhaps you can read the other reader stories to find a way to get through to him.

  90. freedomhaha permalink
    January 9, 2013 9:04 am

    Ben- Thanks for sharing your story. It makes me realize that that the work that the “regulars” do on here is so worth it. I suggest showing your son the last blog post on here!

  91. January 24, 2013 7:30 pm

    Wow, awesome post. Disassociating yourself from Team/Life is extremely difficult and a long process. Thanks for sharing. There are a lot more people just like us out there that have yet to realize just what a disappointment the “business” really is. People have a right to know what they are up against.

  92. Raquel Peters permalink
    January 25, 2013 7:15 am

    Jackie- Welcome to Amthrax! You have some guts coming here with your name! Im sure readers here would love to hear your story when you feel ready to share. Good to have you here!

  93. Raquel Peters permalink
    January 25, 2013 7:21 am

    Ben your story is heartbreaking. A few says ago we posted an article on how to help your loved ones in a destructive group on our FB page. Maybe it could help.!/story.php?story_fbid=464451126935720&id=196416660491930&__user=1391949356

  94. Raquel Peters permalink
    January 25, 2013 7:26 am

    be sure to read more of the following posts on that page. Analysis of Amway Motivational Organizations which is what Team is and where they came from. Educate yourself then you will be able to help your son. In my opinion he is decieved like I was.!/lifeteamdestructive?__user=1391949356

  95. Raquel Peters permalink
    January 25, 2013 7:28 am

    I was brainwashed by the Team system. I believed everything they said and I did all I was told. SCARY.


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