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The Truth Behind LeadershipGurus.net, IAB, Orrin Woodward and Chris Brady

December 27, 2011

Update January 9, 2013: Orrin and Chris’ Leadership Guru award has been revoked. The IAB has been shut down by the FTC, who described it as a scam that has bilked millions of dollars from unsuspecting consumers. Read more here.


Leadershipgurus.net is a farce

One of the most common and persistent claims touted by TEAM LIFE multi-level marketing members is that Orrin Woodward and Chris Brady are among the top leadership gurus in the world according to LeadershipGurus.net.

What, exactly, is LeadershipGurus.net1, and who is behind it?

Investigations have revealed LeadershipGurus.net to be nothing more than a vanity press and affiliate marketing website set up by Arthur Carmazzi of Directive Communication, an organizational change and leadership training company based in Southeast Asia. Carmazzi created the site in 2007 to (1) capitalize on the “leadership guru” search term and (2) to boost his own professional credentials. LeadershipGurus.net also provides vanity press for those individuals listed in his rankings.

At first glance, it’s unclear who runs the site. The contact page leads to a residential address in the United Kingdom:

Leadership Gurus International
121 Arundel Rd,
Birmingham B14 5UE
United Kingdom

Performing a whois lookup on leadershipgurus.net does did not reveal much either4:

Registrant:
Domains By Proxy, LLC
DomainsByProxy.com
15111 N. Hayden Rd., Ste 160, PMB 353
Scottsdale, Arizona 85260
United States

Registered through: RainaWeb
Domain Name: LEADERSHIPGURUS.NET
Created on: 20-Nov-06
Expires on: 20-Nov-12
Last Updated on: 21-Nov-11

Administrative Contact:
Private, Registration LEADERSHIPGURUS.NET@domainsbyproxy.com
Domains By Proxy, LLC
DomainsByProxy.com
15111 N. Hayden Rd., Ste 160, PMB 353
Scottsdale, Arizona 85260
United States
(480) 624-2599 Fax — (480) 624-2598

Technical Contact:
Private, Registration LEADERSHIPGURUS.NET@domainsbyproxy.com
Domains By Proxy, LLC
DomainsByProxy.com
15111 N. Hayden Rd., Ste 160, PMB 353
Scottsdale, Arizona 85260
United States
(480) 624-2599 Fax — (480) 624-2598

Domain servers in listed order:
NS1.WEST-DATACENTER.NET
NS2.WEST-DATACENTER.NET

The Trail to Carmazzi Starts with the IP Address

Our first clue comes from the site’s IP address: 206.130.122.120. Additional websites hosted at here include:

All of the domains with the exception of 1bat.com have private domain registrations. A whois search on 1bat.com reveals the registrant to be Arthur Carmazzi from Directive Communication:

Registrant:
Directive Communication
Jalan Tirta Tawar No. 168
Villa Kubu Kutuh, Kutuh Kaja
Ubud, BaLi 80571
Indonesia

Registered through: RainaWeb
Domain Name: 1BAT.COM
Created on: 17-Mar-07
Expires on: 17-Mar-12
Last Updated on: 18-Mar-11

Administrative Contact:
Carmazzi, Arthur ArthurC@Carmazzi.net
Directive Communication
Jalan Tirta Tawar No. 168
Villa Kubu Kutuh, Kutuh Kaja
Ubud, BaLi 80571
Indonesia
+62.8155701911 Fax —

Technical Contact:
Carmazzi, Arthur ArthurC@Carmazzi.net
Directive Communication
Jalan Tirta Tawar No. 168
Villa Kubu Kutuh, Kutuh Kaja
Ubud, BaLi 80571
Indonesia
+62.8155701911 Fax —

Domain servers in listed order:
NS1.DIRECTIVECOMMUNICATION.NET
NS2.DIRECTIVECOMMUNICATION.NET

Next, entering 206.130.122.120 in a web browser redirects the user to the Directive Communication website. Certain “ads” on the site are also links to sites registered by Carmazzi.

Amazon Affiliate Links

But wait, there’s more! The Amazon Affiliate links on the right-hand side of the site are attached to the Amazon Associates account named directivecomm. That can’t be another coincidence, can it?

In fact, every single website served from this IP address has Amazon Affiliate links that are attached to same account. Purchase any books listed on these sites’ right-hand sidebars, and a portion of your payment will go to Carmazzi and Directive Communication.

It is now clear that one goal for all of these websites built and maintained by Carmazzi is to manipulate search engines by maximizing traffic and affiliate clicks on terms containing the “guru” keyword.

Arthur Carmazzi is the man behind the leadershipgurus.net website

Who Is Arthur Carmazzi?

On his personal website, Arthur Carmazzi is described as the founder of Directive Communication and “ranked as one of the Global Top 10 most influential Leadership Gurus by Gurus International.”

Who’s Gurus International? The earliest archived page of LeadershipGurus.net is from July 8, 2007. In the HTML source code for the page, the meta tags cite “Directive Communication” as the author and copyright. If you were to look at the near identical page source today, it cites “Gurus Global” in the same fields.

On the Global Gurus website, it states (bold emphasis mine):

Global Gurus is an independent research organization dedicated to ranking “Gurus” in different areas of expertise.

It’s time to reconsider the “independent” label of Global Gurus, given that Gurus Global = Gurus International = Directive Communication = Arthur Carmazzi. Let’s rephrase Carmazzi’s bio:

Arthur Carmazzi is ranked as one of the Global Top 102 most influential Leadership Gurus by Arthur Carmazzi.

Readers can learn more about Carmazzi’s background here, here, and here. By his own account, his professional life has been a roller-coaster of ups and downs.

Gaming Google… or What Does All This Mean?

Carmazzi is manipulating search engines in the attempt to own the term “guru” in various verticals such as leadership, brand, sales, management, etc. He has created multiple websites in order to monopolize search engine traffic and secure affiliate revenue through these terms.

By obscuring the true identity of who’s behind Global Gurus / Gurus International — by using a mailing address in the United Kingdom and hiding the domain registration information — Carmazzi created a means by which he can rank himself as one of the top ten leadership gurus in the world.

Finally, serial multi-level marketers like Orrin Woodward and Chris Brady — who are keen to accept any press (even vanity press) that paints them in a positive light — reinforce the false legitimacy of the rankings by constantly referring to the site.

When Carmazzi, the phantom owner of leadershipgurus.net, lists himself at the #9 position, the entire legitimacy of the rankings and the website is called into question.

This is why the leadership rankings don’t matter.

Closing the Book on the Leadership Gurus

Is Arthur Carmazzi a true leadership guru? After learning the truth about his websites, perhaps “self-labeled leadership guru” is more appropriate. Are Orrin Woodward and Chris Brady worthy of being labeled “leadership gurus” themselves? Given the facts that we know today, a logical conclusion would be no.

Readers, what are your thoughts on Carmazzi, LeadershipGurus.net, Orrin Woodward and Chris Brady? Leave your comments in the section below!

Other Sites

It would be remiss to omit two other websites that TEAM LIFE supporters cite as references to Orrin Woodward and Chris Brady’s “leadership guru” status:

Top Leadership Gurus is run by Mark Sandborn, who also runs a website called Top CEO Coaches. While TopLeadershipGurus.com doesn’t feature any ads or affiliate links, TopCEOCoaches.com does.

The Independent Association of Business main website is here. It’s important to note that Orrin’s leadership blog didn’t win the 2010 top leadership website (Jim Maxwell’s did), nor is it listed in the updated 2010 list.

Update 2011-12-30: Just one day after writing the update above about the IAB, Orrin Woodward is “awarded” the Top Leadership Website of 2011. Happy timing? Coincidence? Debate in the comments section below.

Do compare the “criteria” used by both LeadershipGurus.net and the IAB (Bold emphasis mine):

LeadershipGurus.net

The criteria for judging the TOP 30 focused on: Originality of ideas, practicality of ideas, presentation style, international outlook, impact of ideas, quality of publications and writings, dispersion of publications and writings, public opinion, guru factor.

IAB

Originality of ideas
Practicality of ideas
Presentation style
– Testimonials
Impact of ideas
Quality of web content, publications and writings
– Ranking of website in America

It’s worth noting that in early 2011, the IAB blog said this:

Many of the top nominations will be posted here on the IABUSA blog.

There were three additional posts after that one, one mentioning the Top 50 Hospitals in America, another recognizing a different 2011 Small Business Award Nominee, and the third announcing Orrin as the winner of the Leadership Website award. Who were the other nominees? Why were there no updates on anything related to the 2011 awards since April, 20113 (until the latest post on Orrin)? It’s looking more and more like the IAB Blog is run by someone with close connections to Orrin Woodward.

Update December 31, 2011: Vogel found some more information about the IAB and its other businesses. This reinforces the feeling that the IAB “award” is another sham to prop up Orrin Woodward.

Case closed.


1 Critics, on the other hand, have long questioned the legitimacy of both the website and the honorific. Some even have speculated that Orrin Woodward himself is behind the website, but this is likely incorrect.

2 In the first edition of the rankings, Carmazzi listed himself as the #10 leadership guru in the world. He has since risen in the rankings to #9. I guess that’s one way to make and rise in the list! Arthur’s first name is also misspelled as Artur on the website.

3 An additional “award” from the IAB was posted on January 2, 2012.

4 Whois information is now showing additional information on the leadershipgurus.net website.

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102 Comments leave one →
  1. December 27, 2011 7:20 am

    I’ve had many, many readers point to this scam website as proof that Orrin Woodward and Chris Brady are great leaders.

    It just makes me shake my head when people believe any anonymous ranking on the internet.

  2. not signed up yet permalink
    December 27, 2011 7:25 am

    All Woodward and Brady do is sell CDs , books and seminars and get other people to do it too. That doesn’t make you a leader.

  3. December 27, 2011 7:38 am

    Solid investigative effort Amthrax. Just another piece of the Jenga tower taken out.

    Actually, I’m starting to see very clearly why Amway wanted nothing to do with these people. It’s pretty bad when you are giving Amway a bad name and they kick YOU out!

    I mean really, who the hell gets kicked out of Amway and why? These folks managed to do it, and it’s abundantly clear there was a good reason.

    It’s repulsive how they have flogged that they are gurus on video & CD’s when they had to know full well that it was a frocking joke right from the get go.

  4. December 27, 2011 7:45 am

    Who’s surprised? Even with this new information the life/teamers will justify it somehow. Not sure how but they will. I am convinced that even the most die hard followers know that this is a scam/cult but they love the idea that they might become rich and are willing to sell their souls for it. Orrin and Chris have to be getting nervous that their lies are coming out.

  5. webelieved permalink
    December 27, 2011 7:56 am

    AMAZING info Amthrax! I love it, another one of their deceptions coming out.
    Unfortunately the majority of Orrin’s followers will never read this site or any other critics site as they are taught not to, over and over….. but one can only hope!
    I woud agree TD, I bet Orrin is VERY nervous their lies are coming out!

  6. December 27, 2011 8:46 am

    My hope is that prospects who search for terms like “Orrin Woodward leadership guru” or “Chris Brady leadership guru” find this analysis and see through the TEAM LIFE lies.

  7. Arturo permalink
    December 27, 2011 10:20 am

    All the top leaders know Orrin’s guru status is a fraud. They honestly can’t be that dumb. They turn a blind eye because they also know the public has no clue and this fake ranking gives them some credibility in closing a sale. This just highlights that Orrin has a very high opinion of himself. I am still waiting for the day when he launches a site to proclaim himself the sexiest man alive with George Clooney, Brad Pitt, and others trailing behind. It all is very self serving. Orrin builds this fake larger than life persona and sells it to the gullible few. He knows how to create propaganda and when there is no good news to report to his followers he is more than eager to create news to feed them.

  8. webelieved permalink
    December 27, 2011 10:38 am

    Create news! Isn’t that the truth. Give away freebies for some or have others volume load to create some news, or take old news/ subscribers and promote it like it’s new news! LOL!

  9. Former Round Table permalink
    December 27, 2011 12:35 pm

    Here is what Orrin writes about HIMSELF on his blog:

    “This is the blog where leaders come to learn with NY Times, Wall St. Journal, USA Today, Money & Business Weekly best selling co-author of Launching a Leadership Revolution & 2010 Top 10 Leadership Guru List – Orrin Woodward.”

    Seems almost like he’s trying to convince himself more than anyone else. Maybe if he says it enough times, it will come true?

  10. webelieved permalink
    December 27, 2011 1:32 pm

    He always forgets to mention he got his best seller status by having his leaders gather
    pre-orders, many at a time with the specific intent of putting him on the bestsellers list and later sending it downline through his whole team as the book of the month. Anyone could get a best seller status that way. We all know it’s not from customers buying his book in a store one at a time.

  11. Arturo permalink
    December 27, 2011 1:49 pm

    His best selling author status is a joke and he knows it. Worse yet, he knows everyone else knows it. That would be a good story to hear some day from those on the inside. I can see him standing in front of the mirror reciting his version of the line from the movie The Help. You are smart, you are handsome, you are important. He should add one more in there. You are delusional!

  12. TruthSeeker permalink
    December 27, 2011 3:36 pm

    Hahaha is all I can say! Great work Amthrax, and kudos to whoever may have helped. Arturo, you are a funny guy ‘you are delusional’ hilarious!

  13. December 27, 2011 5:43 pm

    @TruthSeeker – Thanks. It took some time to figure it out, but we finally know the truth behind the Leadership Gurus website. I’ve updated the LIFE TEAM Primer page to reflect this new information.

  14. Finally permalink
    December 27, 2011 6:12 pm

    I have heard the story from the insiders on how Orrin got to be a best selling author, and yes it was all manipulated. None of their books sold on their own, they were almost one hundred per cent bought through team. They are a joke on that alone, let alone on the guru site. Same story their, teams voted multiple times to get Orrin to the top of the list, the same people that bought multiple copies of their leadership book. None of it is real, not any of it………..I think we should all start sending fan mail to Orrin at the team office to give him support………you know tell him the truth………I think i will make that a to do item 🙂

    Never seen such narcissist before………

  15. Meshai permalink
    December 27, 2011 6:42 pm

    Ugh! The more deception I understand in the TEAM “business” the angrier I get. The has got to be something that can be done to stop this evil, but I feel powerless. They have money to afford lawyers the average person cannot, and the FTC doesn’t seem to be enforcing their own rules against illegal pyramids. I’ve done some research and the mlm industry seems to have so much power. Most consumer advocacy organizations I ‘ve looked at don’t even touch on the topic…is there still hope for justice though? And how? Amyway for example has so much power and political connections…it seems hopeless, though I have faith that truth will prevail.

  16. TruthSeeker permalink
    December 28, 2011 3:35 am

    Boy did Orrin hit it right on the head when he wrote this in his last post, “LIFE is giving average people the opportunity to achieve un-average results.”

    The truth is, the average person expects to be compensated in direct proportion to the effort they put forth. The average person could expect to have positive results in any endeavor they choose to pursue. The average person could expect to be told the TRUTH about the background of a business model they wish to utilize as a financial vehicle. The average person would expect a positive cash flow as an average result from engaging in a ‘business’ opportunity.

    If you are looking for unaverage, Life is definitely the place to be if you want all of your results to be unaverage, for once I couldn’t agree more with Orrin.

  17. December 28, 2011 5:49 am

    Funny that after Orrin read this site yesterday he put up a top 10 leadership website article on his facebook page. I love this guy, he is so predictable.

  18. Former Round Table permalink
    December 28, 2011 6:21 am

    Yes Orrin is very predictable. He is also VERY sensitive to criticism. Especially when the criticism is based on fact.

    BTW, I notice that the way to make it to the “Top 10 Leadership” websites is to get voted–wonder how many lemmings cast their votes for their favorite megalomaniac?

  19. December 28, 2011 6:38 am

    While checking out if chris brady did the same thing on his facebook page I noticed that this article had been put on his page by a guy named Lomas with the question “Your really not a guru at all are you?” on it. That’s funny stuff.

  20. TruthSeeker permalink
    December 28, 2011 7:59 am

    Even better is when you go to the FB page of Lomas Morton where he also has posted the article, and see one ‘like’ by none other than Chris Freeze! Gotta get a screen shot of that one!

  21. December 28, 2011 8:58 am

    Getting the word out on this post will help disprove the claim more quickly. If you’re on Facebook or Twitter, I suggest re-linking or re-tweeting the article ala Lomas.

  22. Hershall Sweet permalink
    December 28, 2011 10:17 am

    Like the Launching a Leadership Revolution title getting bestseller status – yes – the leadership guru status was voted on by Team members. Twitter posts that scroll on the Team EBC Website suggested voting on the leadership list two years in a row. I remember sitting in a Tuesday Open and the list was mentioned because it was such a big deal to have Chris and Orrin on it at the same time. The presenter asked if anyone was asked to cast a vote. I raised my hand. No one else did. I didn’t say that I voted for Jim Rohn instead… every day. I wondered if a fella’s past results could beat Team guys’ current results posthumously.

  23. December 28, 2011 11:38 am

    I’ve updated the post to include a brief look at the other two sites frequently mentioned by TEAM LIFE members. TopLeadershipGurus.net and the International Association of Business. The former has the markings of a site similar to LeadershipGurus.net. TEAM LIFE members fail to mention that Orrin’s site is no longer listed on the Top 10 Leadership Sites by the IAB.

  24. No Team For Me permalink
    December 28, 2011 2:32 pm

    Lomas Morton is my hero 🙂 that’s what we need – more people linking to this site on facebook so more people can be warned about Orrin & Crew. I bet there’s a lot of people in Team that really want to quit but aren’t aware of everything on this site. I think it was Mesha recently talking about her feelings about wanting to quit but being so worried about leaving all these so called ‘friends’.

    I think if everyone saw this site, they would have the courage to do what their heart is telling them.

    I hope Chris Freeze is doing well. I always liked her & Don.

  25. Kathy permalink
    December 28, 2011 5:21 pm

    Thank you Amthrax for all of your hard work. I’m still waiting for my boyfriend to see the light The posts on your blog let me know that I’m not “The Negative Thinker ” he is just brainwashed! Happy New Year to Everyone!

  26. Arturo permalink
    December 29, 2011 8:39 pm

    There are a thousand hacking at the branches of evil to one who is striking at the root. – Henry David Thoreau

    Amthrax, thank you for your investigations and digging to the roots to expose the truth.

  27. No Team For Me permalink
    December 30, 2011 8:27 am

    Orrin just posted today that he was awarded the Top Leadership Website for 2011 by the IAB. Doesn’t the IAB sound alot like the IBOA (Independent Business Owners Association) for which orrin was a board member before getting kicked out of Amway?

  28. December 30, 2011 8:34 am

    @NoTeamForMe – I think the better comparison to be made is the judging criteria for the award between the LeadershipGurus.net website and the IAB. Compare (bold emphasis mine):

    LeadershipGurus.net

    The criteria for judging the TOP 30 focused on: Originality of ideas, practicality of ideas, presentation style, international outlook, impact of ideas, quality of publications and writings, dispersion of publications and writings, public opinion, guru factor.

    IAB

    Originality of ideas
    Practicality of ideas
    Presentation style
    – Testimonials
    Impact of ideas
    Quality of web content, publications and writings
    – Ranking of website in America

    Happy timing? Coincidence? I think not.

  29. December 30, 2011 9:31 am

    It’s worth noting that in early 2011, the IAB blog said this:

    Many of the top nominations will be posted here on the IABUSA blog.

    There were three additional posts after that one, one mentioning the Top 50 Hospitals in America, another recognizing a different 2011 Small Business Award Nominee, and the third announcing Orrin as the winner of the Leadership Website award. Who were the other nominees? Why were there no updates on anything related to the 2011 awards since April, 2011 (until the latest post on Orrin)? It’s looking more and more like the IAB Blog is run by someone with close connections to Orrin Woodward.

  30. Finally permalink
    December 30, 2011 11:14 am

    Orrin at one time met and watched a football game as John Maxwell’s guest. We never heard about another meeting between Orrin and john…….wonder why????? Maybe it is because true leaders, and in Maxwells case a true spiritual leader, want nothing to do with Orrin. I have said it before he is nor recognized by anyone outside of the MLM industry. In fact, except for a few cronies the MLM leaders as a whole detest Orrin. They push products, right or wrong that is what they do. Orrin pushes Orrin and wants the whole MLM industry learning from him. Problem is they do not want it………..Orrin will crash and burn bad and hopefully many are seeing that he is the path to destruction not prosperity.

  31. Used to be "all-in" permalink
    December 30, 2011 1:12 pm

    Looks like Brady took down Lomas’s post on his facebook page…so it lasted roughly two days. Gotta love the free flow of information that these guys allow…or should I say the one sided nature of their efforts to continue their lies / half-truths??

    Keep up the great investigative work Amthrax and others!! The word is spreading!

  32. Speak Your Truth permalink
    December 30, 2011 1:50 pm

    Used to be all in!

    More like completely ‘controlled’ information! It is so obvious they are more worried about their suped up fake reputation and protecting it than they are about character. They have NONE of us fooled!

    Amthax~

    Keep up the great work! I find it funny that ‘both’ of those sites have identical criteria..and coinicendce..I think not!

    Finally~

    I know that something didn’t go right with John Maxwell and their time spent together because I asked them about it and as usual they froze up (it was very obvious) same with the Yagers and their visit with them except Orrin still thinks he is a hero… They have to withhold the TRUTH about literally everything or their money transfer scheme won’t work…NO NEGATIVE! Fake it til you make it…fake it…and fake it..and fake it!

    John Maxwell had Orrin pegged and knows he isn’t a ‘leader’ and gives ‘leadership’ a bad name. He also knows Orrin stole his material and put it in their book. They have nothing original and every real (earned) leader knows Orrin is a fraud along with all of us. He will crash and burn and his lies are being so exposed..I cannot believe the guy can even look others in the eye…only a real narcissistic con and pathological liar can do that! He has absolutely no shame.

  33. Vogel permalink
    December 30, 2011 4:47 pm

    It’s interesting that the latest “award” is only discussed on the IAB’s WordPress blog site and not on the IAB’s main site. The IAB’s main site is registered to Shane M. Madigan, who is the IAB president.
    http://www.iabbenefits.com/about/management/shane.html

    Here are the corporate registration details. These sites list all of the IBAs key people.
    http://starpas.azcc.gov/scripts/cgiip.exe/WService=wsbroker1/corp-detail.p?name-id=F13377497
    https://business.sos.state.ms.us/corp/soskb/Names.asp?PItemID=438666
    http://ucc.state.ri.us/CORP_DRIVE1/2011/0628/000000000/7338/201180761330_1.pdf

    At first, it’s hard to tell exactly what the IBA does. They are clearly engaged in lobbying efforts on the part of MLMs.
    https://www.iabbenefits.com/about/history.html

    It’s registered as a charitable organization, but they have not provided any details to Guidestar.
    http://www2.guidestar.org/organizations/75-2198657/independent-association-businesses.aspx

    I get the impression that they might do some form of marketing too, as the company’s address is also associated with an organization called International Marketing Services.
    http://www.bizdays.com/metro/bizid-583512.html

    But here’s where the trail gets really interesting. The IBA sells pseudo-health insurance and pre-paid legal services to its members – and the really interesting part is that they seem to do it using an MLM model (the insurance service is called International Association of Benefits). Check this link and you’ll see where they are recruiting affiliates under the guise that they can make money by recruiting more affiliates. Very interesting, no?
    http://www.iabbenefits.com/benefits/opportunity.html

    Then I found this video…sealed the deal…MLM/pyramid scheme all the way.

    Here’s an example of a generic replicated website for an IAB “distributor”.
    http://lien.iabbenefits.com/

    This document describes the pay levels and bonuses.
    http://www.iabbenefits.com/Resource/DbFile/?f=Presentation101811.pdf

    These sources essentially describe IAB’s insurance services as a fraud/scam.
    http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/05_52/b3965064.htm
    http://www.claimsjournal.com/news/midwest/2005/04/19/54002.htm
    http://www.ripoffreport.com/directory/iab.aspx
    http://www.complaints.com/directory/2004/september/22/34.htm

    So there you have it. In a nutshell, this disreputable pyramid scheme — IAB — gave an award to another disreputable pyramid schemer — Orrin. I think that smashes to bits any notion of the award’s validity; the real question now is what other slithering vermin and sordid details are hiding under this rock.

  34. 1MillionLIfES permalink
    December 30, 2011 4:47 pm

    @Used to Be All In – The post is still on Chris Brady’s page. Not sure if you were looking at his personal page or not, but it can be found on the Chris Brady “Public Figure” page.

  35. Used to be "all-in" permalink
    December 31, 2011 7:29 am

    1MillionLIfES – I stand corrected…thanks for clarifying. I must have been looking at his personal page. Maybe Brady will surprise us all and keep it up there for all to see…

  36. December 31, 2011 8:46 am

    @vogel – Great information on the IAB. I linked to this comment in the post above.

  37. webelieved permalink
    December 31, 2011 9:30 am

    Vogel- Orrin is probably trying to sell LIFE to IAB distributors. I would guess that is Orrin’s goal, to use LIFE for leadership training in other mlms and companies.

  38. Finally permalink
    December 31, 2011 1:37 pm

    One of the beautiful things on this site is that there is no cross line rule . They used to tell us that cross lining would hurt our business, the truth is that is that it hurts their business because the truth is shared.

    I know they read this and the one thing they should understand is that this is only the surface………..they want to talk cross lining….as Orrin said so bluntly from stage “Bring IT”
    Orrin, Tim, George have all ruined and stolen from people and because of sites like this those people are getting together. There is a ton of stories and a ton of proof of what they have done and how they stole peoples livli hoods. They are shameless crooks of the worst kind. I cannot wait for the day when Orrin is in a court room trying to explain all that people have against him and the others. And then, the walk of shame…………just like all the rest of the leaders that caved on principle and gave into pride and arrogance……..I really don’t know how their wives do what they do, lie to their kids, families and friends. It is no wonder I hear Amy marks eating disorder is in full swing again, I guess that comes from her good friend Dolores Martin. From what I hear if you want someone to know your secrets, tell Dolores……….And to think of the number of people that trusted these people……..

    No wonder the only accolades they get are from scam people and sites.

  39. Vogel permalink
    December 31, 2011 1:57 pm

    I did a bit more digging on the IAB (and its affiliate, United Benefits of America) and came to the conclusion that it’s an even scarier and potentially more injurious scam than Monavie or any of Orrin’s enterprises. It’s a massive health insurance scam that has run afoul of regulators in various states including CA, FL, AK, IL, and TX. They’ve been the target of FTC enforcement actions, cease and desist orders, and a mountain of complaints from consumers who were misled into believing that IAB’s plans provided legitimate health insurance, when in fact the coverage was basically useless (leaving defrauded consumers on the hook for massive medical bills).
    http://www.hospitalbillhelp.org/latest_news?id=0003
    http://www.illinoisattorneygeneral.gov/pressroom/2006_09/20060914b.html
    http://www.insurancefraud.org/article.lasso?RecID=1732
    http://www.insurancefraud.org/bogus_health.htm
    http://www.insurancefraud.org/healthplan_watchlist.htm
    http://www.dmhc.ca.gov/library/reports/news/prdhc.pdf
    http://www.floir.com/siteDocuments/IntlAssocBenefits.pdf
    http://docs.justia.com/cases/federal/district-courts/illinois/ilndce/1:2009cv07438/238113/42/0.pdf
    http://www.dmhc.ca.gov/healthplans/enf/actions/iab/16685.pdf
    http://www.ncahf.org/digest05/05-48.html
    http://commerce.alaska.gov/ins/insurance/programs/Consumers/pubs/annual%20reports/70th/Administrative%20Section/License_Denials%20Orders%20and%20Bulletins.pdf
    http://www.sbisvcs.com/Brochures/Nashville%20Business%20Journal%20Article%2009%2001%2008.pdf

    I was also disgusted by this pitch for the business side of IAB, which focuses solely on the financial benefits of home office tax deductions (as a taxpayer, this annoys me to no end).
    http://agrinsonis.com/YHOMEBUS.pdf

    I’d have to say that the IAB insurance MLM scam is even worse than Monavie and TEAM — as hard as that is to imagine. It has the potential to instantly bankrupt people and leave them without access to medical care.

    The bestowal of a leadership award from the IAB is like receiving a humanitarianism award from the Khmer Rouge. For this, Orrin should be even more ashamed than usual.

  40. Speak Your Truth permalink
    December 31, 2011 3:21 pm

    Way to Go Vogel! Thanks for your great detective and research efforts! I do have to agree it is hard to believe anything is scammier than Orrin because he is right up there with them in damages. I wonder how much more facts of data to show the truth these deceptive fraudsters can take with you and Amthrax around..lol? You must be hurting their feelings. 🙂

    The only award he earned is the Deceptive Parasite Marketers Industry Fradusters Award the (DPMIF Award)! I vote for him and their new associates!

  41. Brent Hansen permalink
    December 31, 2011 3:26 pm

    Great work Vogel! I had someone pitch this to me several months back, I am going to hit that person up for some more information.

  42. Speak Your Truth permalink
    January 2, 2012 1:05 pm

    Vogel~

    Orrin apparently is ignoring the facts you have found and is if this is some prestigious award that he is “amazed and thankful” for receiving:

    He is self-promoting himself using this here:
    http://orrinwoodward.tripod.com/index.blog/2249538/orrin-woodward-awarded-2011-international-association-of-business-top-leader/

    Do all these ‘contenders’ know their names have been ‘used’ with such a discusting affliation and Orrin is promoting himself at their exspense?

    Or do they know their ‘names’ and reputation are being used? with; as you put it best:

    “It’s a massive health insurance scam that has run afoul of regulators in various states including CA, FL, AK, IL, and TX. They’ve been the target of FTC enforcement actions, cease and desist orders, and a mountain of complaints from consumers who were misled into believing that IAB’s plans provided legitimate health insurance, when in fact the coverage was basically useless (leaving defrauded consumers on the hook for massive medical bills).”

    I would be very intested in knowing if all these real leaders (contenders) approve of their names being used in this way and believe they should be aware of the facts you have found.

    They don’t explain how they come to the conclusion of Orrin being the ‘winner’ of this award, besides stating the ‘criteria’.

    Is it how they always have done it by the votes of the followers? Gaming the ‘captive audience’ with promotion to get the votes? That is how they have ALWAYS got it and what I suspect it how many ‘votes’ they received. It is obvious Orrin has promoted this with a vengence; just look at who the ‘followers’ of the blog are and the majority of comments are coming from those who are on the team and the PC who need something to point to so they look ‘legitimate.’ Seriously Orrin was ‘picked’ over these contenders..what a joke.
    Too obvious.

    This is information is taken from the above link.

    Who were the contenders for the 2011 Leadership Award?

    http://www.jimcollins.com : Jim Collins

    http://www.giantimpact.com : John Maxwell

    http://www.stephencovey.com : Stephen Covey

    http://www.kenblanchard.com : Ken Blanchard

    http://www.robinsharma.com : Robin Sharma

    http://www.marshallgoldsmith.com : Marshall Goldsmith

    http://www.tompeters.com : Tom Peters

    http://www.tonyrobbins.com : Anthony Robbins

    http://www.straightfromthegut.com : Jack Welch

    http://www.orrinwoodward.com : Orrin Woodward

    Who is the 2011 Top Leadership Award Winner?

    Although everyone of the Top 10 finalists is a winner, only one can receive the prize. The 2011 Top Leadership Award was presented to Orrin Woodward – Founder of two multi-million dollar leadership companies – LIFE and TEAM.

    Orrin is a New York Times Best-Selling Co-Author of Launching a Leadership Revolution, Top Leadership Blogger, and recognized Leadership Guru. His first solo book RESOLVED: 13 Resolutions For LIFE was released in 2011 and is achieving international acclaim for its character-centered leadership resolutons.

    Congratulations to Orrin Woodward and his entire leadership team for raising the bar in the field of leadership!

    One of the first criteria listed is the “Originality of Ideas”; are you freaking serious? Tell me 1 thing that is “original”! hahahaha they have stolen EVERYTHING and mostly from AMWAY!

    Here is another one:
    – Impact of ideas

    They most definitely haven’t read Amthrax’s site or interviewed just how much of a ‘negative’ impact their ‘ideas’ have had on the masses. This whole thing is yet another fake and gamed represenation of the truth of who these fraudsters really are. This is truly discusting.

  43. Used to be "all-in" permalink
    January 2, 2012 2:34 pm

    Vogel – Great research on the IAB!! You pretty much nailed it. Here is an article I found from Businessweek which also doesn’t speak very glowingly about the company:

    http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/05_52/b3965064.htm

    Not sure about the rest of you, but I’m thinking about testing my own self-promotion skills. As I take my own trash out to the curb each week, I will set up my own private website and will rank the top 10 “Garbage Collectors of Year” in my neighborhood. Although there are plenty of potential candidates as numerous neighbors completely fill up their 50 gallon trash containers each week and some often have an overflow, I am going to rank myself in the #1 slot. I put my trash out very early in the morning and the trash is gone before most of my neighbors wake up…so they’ll have to take my word for it that I’m better than they are and more talented at trash fill-up. Once I set up this website and give myself the award, I will notify my spouse, family and closest friends, and will encourage each of them to add glowing comments of my abilities to my website. If they refuse to comment, I will threaten to stop attending family events or providing them gifts for their birthdays.

    If in a year people forget that I won this prestigous award, I’ve heard rumors that there is a “Smelliest Trash” award up for grabs next year. My friends are going to be so impressed.

  44. Speak Your Truth permalink
    January 2, 2012 3:07 pm

    Used to be all in~

    OMgosh…ROFL…hahahahahaha….That is the best…Thanks!!!! 🙂

  45. Speak Your Truth permalink
    January 2, 2012 7:06 pm

    Jim Collins, John Maxwell, Stephen Covey, Ken Blanchard, Robin Sharma, Marshall Goldsmith, Tom Peters, Anthony Robins, and Jack Welch?

    Seriously and Orrin won?…hahahahaha

    I wonder if anyone of these real leaders would receive this the way Oprah did using her reputation and brought a lawsuit on many companies including MV. I would like to know if these true leaders (contenders) even knew anything about this competition or were they notified that they were in a competition for this ‘top prestigious award’ of the year from a disreputable company or if their names and reputations are being exploited or was this information, only privy to Orrin?

    Was the ‘winner’ and ‘award’, based on how many ‘votes’ were received or is there a possibility for buying it? If so, Did the legitimate (contenders) know they ‘needed’ votes or was this again knowledge only Orrin had? Was the game played fair? Hmmm……….

    For all of us here we already know Orrin games everything including his “#1 best seller” status. He is behind many if not all of the ‘titles’ he self-promotes; as Amthrax has provided facts about the ‘guru’ status that by the way Orrin is still self-promoting himself as; the guy has no shame.

    There is no way in a million years; would Orrin ever have won anything; in an honest, legitimate way, when in competition against these real legitimate leaders. I don’t believe this was a fair competition for a second.

    I would never put Orrin’s name in the same category or even should it be mentioned in the same sentence with any of these real leaders. There is no doubt Orrin has taken from most of these leaders ‘original’ material, repeats their material from stage, and put it in a book and called it ‘his’.

    In my opinion, Orrin and the MLM so called leaders have polluted and are ruining the industry of genuine legitimate leaderships and leaders, with their propaganda and without the real leaders even knowing it is happening.

    Orrin, the PC, and some others are a disgrace to all of these guys who have spent most of their lives ‘earning’ organically their respectable reputations. I even wonder if they know Orrin is behind the scenes trying to make himself In every way he can…. look better than all of them? I doubt any of them even know this is going on and I highly doubt they know or follow the MLM game and how they claim anything they want whether it is ethical or truthful or they decide to pull it out of thin air.

    I would love to see what these real leaders in this completion would say about it. It has been proven that Orrin has gamed and violated so many of these leadership principles taught by these very guys and is nothing more than a fake and fraud. It is a way more accurate to make the comparison to Bernie Madoff than any of these real leaders, from our experience. How much more shameful can the guy get?

    These statements are a dead give away. Someone from the Team wrote this:

    Who is the 2011 Top Leadership Award Winner?

    Although everyone of the Top 10 finalists is a winner, only one can receive the prize. The 2011 Top Leadership Award was presented to Orrin Woodward – Founder of two multi-million dollar leadership companies – LIFE and TEAM.

    Orrin is a New York Times Best-Selling Co-Author of Launching a Leadership Revolution, Top Leadership Blogger, and recognized Leadership Guru. His first solo book RESOLVED: 13 Resolutions For LIFE was released in 2011 and is achieving international acclaim for its character-centered leadership resolutons.

    Congratulations to Orrin Woodward and his entire leadership team for raising the bar in the field of leadership!

  46. webelieved permalink
    January 3, 2012 6:35 am

    How is LIFE a multi million dollar company? NOT!
    Another lie!!!!! It’s only been in business for what 4 weeks?

  47. webelieved permalink
    January 3, 2012 6:48 am

    I agree with you Speak, I would NOT want my reputation mixed in with these low life cons! I wonder what these real leaders would think about their names and books being used day in and day out to run this mlm scam/deception? I don’t think they would be too happy.
    Maybe we should let them know?
    I remember when Orrin supposedly met was it John Maxwell?….funny not much was said about it afterward. He probably sat 10 seats away, but he got to shake his hand!

    UTBAI- I VOTE FOR YOU!! You’re the best garbage man EVER! Can I empty my bank account and give it all to you so you can stroke my ego and make me a 10 cent cd to tell me I can be the best garbage picker ever? Than after I bust my ar$$ for years to get all the garbage contracts/customers, can you steal them from me and kick me to the curb? Please…….sign me up! …
    LOL!

  48. January 3, 2012 7:55 pm

    Everyone – Orrin published his Thank You post to the IAB and everyone who’s supported him over the years on his personal blog. They are definitely trying to milk this “award” for all it’s worth.

  49. Vogel permalink
    January 3, 2012 9:10 pm

    OMG! That’s so nauseating! By the length and gushiness of his thank you speech, you’d think he just won an Academy Award. He should for that performance.

    He knows what the organization behind this “prestigious award” is really all about — bilking money from destitute uninsured sick people for bogus MLM health insurance discount cards. Sick! This guy is turning into an epic villain. I have to restrain myself from expressing the true depth of my contempt for this posturing obsequious blowhard.

  50. Speak Your Truth permalink
    January 4, 2012 4:28 pm

    Webelieved~

    Your comments to UTBAI are histerical!

    Vogel~ I agree and it makes it even more nauseating that he is promoting this knowing the company with the extreme amount of bad press.. Those true leaders who he supposedly beat out.. I doubt very much they even know about it and the the company that is awarding it?..WOW…Shows how desperate they are… What next?… Use Bernie and his techniques as a ‘marketing’ technique?

  51. Freedomhaha permalink
    January 7, 2012 4:06 pm

    You are right they are trying to milk this award. I am so glad that Vogel did the work to find the truth here. This is such a big deal that I would love to see it as a post of its own. As always can’t thank everyone here enough.

  52. Scott permalink
    January 20, 2012 5:47 am

    You may be right, Leadership Gurus websites are completely opinionated by people with very little credentials. However, from what I read and see, this guy Orrin must be a leader. I have tried MLM schemes and always failed. This guy has created a community of over 200,000 people!!! I have also read / listened to thier material. Even if they are a scam, hundreds of thousands of people are listening and reading books that will benenfit them. If your options are to read information that will make you a better spouse/father/friend….or read this blog which simply encourages you to bash people………….. This is the information age, and your information is useless

  53. January 20, 2012 10:46 am

    @Scott – 200,000 people are not currently in Orrin’s organization today.

  54. rickdg permalink
    January 20, 2012 1:41 pm

    @Scott Where did you hear 200,000? They don’t even have 20,000.
    Now they’re sending liars over here.
    MLM’s only work for a very few at the top. Period.
    Those smiling fakesters that get up and get some clapping are faking it.

  55. Speak Your Truth permalink
    January 20, 2012 2:22 pm

    Whoa….Scott says:

    “Even if they are a scam, hundreds of thousands of people are listening and reading books that will benenfit them.”

    Seriously dude, did you just say that? “Even if they are a SCAM” hahahaha

    What a twisted view and worthless argument.That is like saying; after your coach gets convicted (pedophile) but helped hundreds of thousands learn how to play basketball and taught them principles. Or a bank robber, robbed 6 banks but gave the money to a charity that helped hundreds of thousands so, they will benefit from the robber.

    The other thing you are totally Missing is the Truth and facts on this blog and those who have been negatively affected by the corrupted people behind the ‘system’ of ‘information’. The ‘system’ dates clear back to Dexter Yager whom Orrin learned from when he was in Q/Amway and took that ‘system’ and calls it Team Lief. Even their pay plan is very similar and like Amway’s, and what about the Lief’s P&P’s how many hundreds of thousands you think that will help? Might want to Read it Scott, (not your business) Orrin’s business depends on it.

    Read Merchants of Deception, and many other books about how destructive the Amway=Team Lief system has been and how many people are telling you it has effected every area of their life in a negative, destructive way.

    You say; “This guy has created a community of over 200,000 people!!!” Where is the documention and facts to back this up? It is evident you are not using your critical thinking and just ‘repeating’ what you hear, you have been snowed and are believing the BS they are telling you.

    BTW…Scott we have all listened to ‘their materials’ that turned out to be a real problem because, personally I have l listened to tens of thousands of hours if not hundreds and the only thing I got was deceived and indoctrinated with their rhetoric and ideology and then repeated ignorantly the lies they tell because we TRUSTED and thought they were the truth, didn’t ever check , just like you Scott.

    Scamming people, does not ‘help them’.. it is fraud; a fraud is an intentional deception made for personal gain or to damage another individual; the related adjective is fraudulent.

    Based on that definition, whether you ‘believe’ it helps people or not is irrelevant when it comes to fraud. I will tell you from our experience there is intentional deception being used for their personal gain and definitely have damaged our efforts and teams.

    Read the site, it just might help you, it has many others.

  56. January 24, 2012 5:08 pm

    The Anti-Amthrax blogger attempts to debunk my debunking post on Arthur Carmazzi today:

    http://www.amthrax-amway-review.com/2012/01/23/debunking-leadership-guru-site-tabloid-sensationalism/

  57. Mike Collins permalink
    January 24, 2012 5:58 pm

    In response to the latest anti amthrax post: Dear Anti-Amthrax blogger ( or better yet orrin or chris) you guys are such a freakin rookies when it comes to “debunking” the truth. Stick to what you’re good at: Lying and deceiving people to fleece them out of their hard earned money with the false promise of financial freedom. JACKASSES!

  58. Gaven Sashidharan permalink
    May 7, 2012 8:33 am

    You say it’s propaganda that they spread. But what’s really funny is that you guys are doing exactly the same thing. You are spreading your propaganda by way of this website. Think about it. Go through the blogs and read through all the comments. It’s the same propaganda over and over and over again and surprisingly (not really) from the same 10-15 people. Of course you do have some new people pop up here and there.

    I don’t know how you reached here, nor do I really care, but look at yourself in the mirror, look at your wife and kids eyes (if you have them) and ask yourself if you have actually made a difference in this world. Let’s set aside LIFE and AMTHRAX for a second and seriously question yourself. If your reply is that you aren’t a better person, friend, husband, wife, father, mother, etc. then what are you doing to improve? Even if you don’t like TEAM, LIFE, or the people, what about the material? Can you honestly say that you went to the library or the bookstore and purchased books on self-improvement?

    I’m not here to defend, criticize, or promote anything or anyone. I’m sure one of your “followers” (I did that intentionally as many of the commenters have used that term) will have something to debunk what I’ve said and that will be sad to see because they truly have not looked within themselves and asked the question of whether or not they are a better person.

    So here’s my name and email address (something that none of your followers seem to put on here). Email me with your information and tell me what you were like before and after team and how you truly are a better person now.
    Gaven Sashidharan
    gsashidharan07@yahoo.com
    btw, I’m posting this same message to some of your other posts just so I can see how many followers respond to the blog and how many actually email me.

  59. May 7, 2012 11:50 am

    @Gaven – Would you at least comment on the content of this blog post? What do you think of the analysis of the LeadershipGurus.net web site and Arthur Carmazzi? Do you still believe that it’s a legitimate award that Orrin Woodward (and TEAM) should be proudly promoting?

  60. Gaven Sashidharan permalink
    May 7, 2012 1:10 pm

    Amthrax permalink*
    May 7, 2012 11:50 am

    @Gaven – Would you at least comment on the content of this blog post? What do you think of the analysis of the LeadershipGurus.net web site and Arthur Carmazzi? Do you still believe that it’s a legitimate award that Orrin Woodward (and TEAM) should be proudly promoting?
    —————————————————
    I will give you guys an A for investigation. But that’s where it stops. If this site was as bogus as you lead your followers to believe, then why are they referenced over and over again by people outside of TEAM. Why doesn’t John Maxwell or Covey stand up and say “Take me off this list” or “Stop putting me on this list that is in correct”. You don’t see that do you.

    Now for your followers. Read what I just said. Go research for yourself on John Maxwell and the other leaders of the world. Show me one of the leaders that denounces this site. I’ve provided my email address on a few of the topics on this bloggers site. I’d love to hear your response (only because I don’t normally surround myself with negativity).

    Amthrax I hope I answered your question. The answer to the second part of your question would be based on your (or your followers) findings for my point above.

    I would like to add this part though. I was on one of your other topics and came across your response.
    Amthrax permalink*
    December 19, 2010 11:41 am

    Not everyone will succeed in Amway or MLM. For those that don’t, isn’t it better for them to cut their losses and leave before losing more money? There’s more opportunity out there than just your business; it would behoove those that quit to see what else is out there. Amway and MLM is not the be all to end all.
    ——————————–
    Not everyone will succeed in a MLM. True. I agree with you 100%. Let’s use an another analogy that a previous person pointed out. Say I go to Golds Gym. I work on the treadmill on day 2. Day 9 I come back and work on weights. Day 15 I work on cardio. Day 22 I’m on the exercise bike. Do you think I lost weight or gained anything for the month? Should I ask Golds Gym for my money back? Let’s do the same for the 2nd month, 3rd month, 4th month, etc. Do you think I should stand outside Golds Gym and proclaim what a scam it is? Of course not. Hard work, consistency and a good diet would be key, wouldn’t you agree. Now apply that to your MLM.

    So what I’m saying is I agree with you, but a better statement in response, instead of shooting someone down would be to work hard at it and give it your all.

    If I applied your same principle to marriage….relationship with my kids….You are the voice of your blog. Don’t spread more negativity and actually teach and educate your followers on being better.

    Btw I love using the word followers on your site. I love seeing the little community you have created.

  61. Freedomhaha permalink
    May 7, 2012 7:54 pm

    Gaven- Without having the time to pick through all your incorrect statements on here I will focus on the last one where you say:
    “Btw I love using the word followers on your site. I love seeing the little community you have created.”

    Orrin and TEAM and right that community is the thing. If you study history communities make change. Some examples are the Protestant Reformation or Civil rights leaders. However, the people in this community are not doing it for money my friend. People that comment on this site have seen their lives (not to mention pocket book) greatly improve since leaving TEAM/LIEF/business of the year. I feel it is my obligation to give back my time and help save people from this horrible commercial cult. I will tell you this Gaven- I still have people that I can’t look in the eye because of my involvement with TEAM. I hurt them by even showing them the plan much less the ones that I got signed up. The committed, awesome group of posters do so on here knowing they will never earn a dime, instead out of the kindness of their own heart.

    God bless my friend. When you do see the light we will be here to accept you with open arms for leaving the cult. Around us you won’t have to guard your wallet or pay for another mans vacations!

  62. switch permalink
    May 8, 2012 6:26 am

    sashidharan says-
    “Btw I love using the word followers on your site. I love seeing the little community you have created.”

    Take the LIEf blinders off, sweetheart….it’s bigger than you think.

  63. webelieved permalink
    May 8, 2012 7:18 am

    Switch- Ditto!
    Many more ex-leaders than what are commenting here are following this blog and the big O knows it. He knows 99% of what has been said here is the truth! That is why he hasn’t done a thing…..he can’t. Too many of his secrets will come out in public, with documentation, for all his followers to see!

  64. Dr. D. Knight-Messenger permalink
    July 13, 2012 12:25 pm

    I’ve recdently been approached by an unemploed friend interested in joing the TEAM. She has been given CDs and a motivational book by Orrin Woodward and Chris Brady to read. What should I tell her?

  65. July 14, 2012 1:07 pm

    Read the LIFE TEAM Primer and follow the links for the 50+ questions to ask of TEAM LIFE. If you’re not interested, you should say should simply yet definitively.

  66. webelieved permalink
    July 14, 2012 9:11 pm

    Tell her there is a shady past to Orrin’s business. Lead her to the LIFE PRIMER and the comp videos on this site.

  67. July 17, 2012 1:35 pm

    During my time with TEAM, I kept wondering……
    1. Internet Biz…. – WHY would anyone EVER buy multiple tools, let alone try to impress people with a full automobile Trunk?
    * What part of “duplicatable” is the trunk full, as everyone understands Just In Time delivery (keep your in house stock to a bare minimum), let alone many in the Americas have made an order on the Internet and have had product at our home within 2 or 3 days.
    2. Information is Key to success, and IF you have success with product sales, those above will “notice” and “benefit” too… BUT if info is the key – Why not let immediate access via Pod Casts so that we can learn nearly instantaneously via the “Internet” (it is out there and lightning quick)…. BUT THE INFO IS NOT THE KEY – the CA$H for a Compact Disc is the KEY. Notice the Compact Disc was recorded at the Major or Seminar or even Open which you had already paid for a ticket to attend (double if you are actually married)…
    3. Went to a Major in Fall in Wisconsin and “Jack Welch” was to speak but turned out to be a “no show”. If I am Mr. W, I would charge all travel costs and number of days to speak. This MONEY was not refunded in any manner to myself (based on the “free” speakers who are already leading various legs of the TEAM, the majority of money spent for this event should have been the Bradley Center and Mr. W…
    4. Seminars (held on Saturday’s typically one time per month)… at least in CY2010 cost $30USD, and time PER THE PRINTED TICKET IS 5:00PM to 11:00PM… yet you are pressured to DEPART at 9:00PM if you have NOT bought a ticket to the next event. Based simply on “Cost of Entertainment per hour” of $30USD/6 hours = $5USD/hour, you have effectively ‘given away’ 1/3 of ticket price [if you actually feel compelled to ‘give away’ that last 2 hours which you had already paid for ~ typically in advance].
    5. Seminars – would NOT occur in months with the “every 4 months” Major, but that changed to increase Seminars from 8 per year to 12 per year.
    6. Majors – I predicted the set up was to have instead every 4 months, make them Quarterly, thus to keep up with the “leadership” you get instead of 3 Majors, now you get 4 Majors a year.
    7. “The System” – when took a break and stopped “the system and SOT”, the Team website did their own math and figured I must still want the “Team Website” auto charged. This price is PRICELESS as “GoDaddy” has a website per year fee of about less than $20USD per year.
    8. My top prospects were: both intercepted by a COMPETING member within the TEAM… the interceptors were known within a common social circle to “jump into anything” and thus S-C-A-R-E-D OFF one of my closest and longest friends. The other close friend was approached and drawn right in without any regard to my location within the TEAM structure.

  68. July 19, 2012 8:19 am

    @fastfruit2oo9

    That’s the nature of the MLM cult beast – milk MLMbots to the max, then invent new ways to milk them some more. The aggregate of all these activities results in a huge, one sided impact upon MLM players – more cash at the pyramid hill top to the beast owner, while the converse effect is of course on MLMbots parting with more of their cash and providing it to the former. In this pretend industry 99%+ of the participants are in the latter group -cash provider or the cash cow – and that’s just the way it is. Any wonder why there’s many “we love you” spouted from some MLM stage? I can see why it’s ez to love a cash cow! Still it ain’t right but then again there are those who don’t give a damn about nothing else while their have their hands at the cow’s tits!

  69. MustHaveBeenTerribleMother permalink
    August 22, 2012 6:27 am

    Could someone please interpret fastfruitfrog’s post for me? It’s so “insider written” that I don’t get all of it. Probably lots of good points in it, too.

  70. Dr. D. Knight-Messenger permalink
    August 22, 2012 6:49 am

    I have read through some of their material which I felt disturbing. The content of their book and the authors’ business backgrounds and reputataions have made me very concerned for an unemployed and very in-need friend who seems to be totally enamoured with this organization. Although I have shared my thoughts and reasons for concern with my friend, I failed to persuade her to be very caustious before becoming involved.

  71. August 22, 2012 8:50 am

    @Dr Knight-Messenger – TEAM/LIFE is offering hope to your friend. Unfortunately, statistics have shown that the majority of participants in TEAM/LIFE never make any money. I’m sorry that you haven’t been able to get through to your friend, but don’t give up. Maybe change your approach (read the Freedom of Mind links on the right-hand sidebar for some more pointers) or browse through the 50+ Questions post for more ideas.

  72. Mike permalink
    December 3, 2012 10:57 am

    I was a part of LIFE for about a year. Let me provide you with a factual and unbiased opinion. Leadership is defined as “influence”. Orrin has “influenced” thousands to follow him…….therefore, he is indeed a Leader. Now, for the reason that I left LIFE. The compensation plan is designed to reward only the top 1%. This is not a viable opportunity for most people. Orrin is an excellent speaker with great motivation skills. I heard a speaker say that LIFE was a $70M company last year. I have been told that Orrin and the other six policy council members make several million a year each. You can do the math….$70M – (7x $5M)= $35M / 80,000 Members = $437 ave yearly

  73. Raquel Peters permalink
    December 3, 2012 11:44 am

    Mike when Orrin gets people to follow him by decieving them, that isn’t leadership in my opinion………….con men get people to follow them too. Great post by the way.

  74. Melanie Morgan permalink
    December 3, 2012 4:40 pm

    Mike~

    I agree with you that leaders have influence but that is not all. Everyone is a leader in some form. You could observe a “leader” at a kindergarten playground because he/she can influence them to “follow” them. Not sure if you have spent time with Orrin or are still “following” the “leader” he might be a great leader in your mind.

    But from my opinion, in hindsight and from experience, Orrin has lost and has zero influence with many, thousands and of the prior Top Leaders, and from what I have seen, his style of “leadership” is his way or the highway..that I don’t consider “influence” that is a dictatorship. From my perspective he is more of a manipulator, and have heard others opinions of him as megalomaniac (and others not even close to “leader”). Their style of “leadership” is controlling and demanding, and far from real leadership. Not to mention the lack of “transparency”, integrity, and all the other shenanigans..therefore, I see a mis-leader..

    I also know “edification” of Orrin specifically is demanded ( by him and through modeling) from the top leaders, down and others follow that by the nature of their “do as your upline does” and designed hierarchy. It is expected and followed and mandatory.

    In the Team, this is how they manufacture “influence”…they get everyone to “follow” along with Orrin strategically keeping his “top Leaders”..”bank accounts full”.. amongst other tactics. The edification of Orrin is over the top, and this is what causes the masses to follow, and get to the point they are in “awe” of Orrin. Just like cults do.

    Is demanded edification; earned influence? In other words the “edification” (along with what Orrin does behind the scenes) I believe is what got people to “follow” and continues, Stop the over the top edification of Orrin and others, and see what happens. Personally, I believe he manipulates, the Top leaders, who are the ones’ who I believe are more responsible for getting others to “follow” Orrin.

    I also know there are thousands that Orrin had some artificial “influence” with, until they wizened up,. When you are lied to and/or screwed over people tend to lose influence.

    In my humble opinion, Orrin does not have an ounce of “influence” with a whole lot more leaders than the ones he has following without question now.

  75. freedomhaha permalink
    December 3, 2012 7:58 pm

    Mike- Thanks for sharing about your experience. Curious as to where you got the 80,000 people number. We were trying to estimate the number of people in the other day on here. Thanks!

  76. Finally permalink
    December 4, 2012 5:50 am

    By Mike’s definition of a leader that means he would consider Hitler to be a leader, many were influenced and followed him, after all. The one piece of the definition of a leader that Mike is missing is “influencing for Good”. Kim Jong Il was a leader and so is his son. They have influenced millions………………Careful with whom you back as a leader, you will be associated with that choice.

    Many of us on here were influenced at one time. The difference is that when we saw the negatives and were able to identify the wrong doings we left………..period!!! Many have spoken out against the wrongs of the team both anonymously and under their own names. Either way does not change how the leadership of team operates. Melanie was closer longer and has a better understanding of Orrin first hand than most could ever possibly begin to understand. In what I saw and experienced first hand I believe she is spot on in her assessment of team and all they stand for.

    Mike in your year it would be Impossible for you to classify Orrin as a leader, or at least a leader that does good. You just have no way of knowing all that he is about by seeing him on stage, listening to his Cd’s or by hearing how he is edified. I will make one more analogy on who people are. It is said that serial killers are often the least likely to be found out in their everyday life because they blend in so well. If a person that kills for sport can blend in and be respected by those that know him why is it so hard to believe that people like Orrin can be so devious? LET ME MAKE IT CLEAR I AM NOT CALLING ANYONE A SERIAL KILLER!!!! The analogy does apply though………..People are not what they seem like all the time………….

  77. No Team For Me permalink
    December 4, 2012 12:16 pm

    I think Mike was just making the comment that a leader has followers. That does not make them a good leader. There are good leaders and bad leaders. I believe the term leader is totally separate from the distinction of whether that person is a good or bad leader.

    I do believe Hitler, Stalin, Jim Jones, etc were all leaders. They choose to use their leadership capabilites for evil. But they were in fact leaders who had thousands of people following them. My personal belief is that Orrin falls into the same category. He is a leader. The problem I have is that I believe he uses that leadership ability in an evil negative way to manipulate others for his own good.

  78. Adan permalink
    January 11, 2013 11:16 am

    Who is this Evgeniy Chetvertakov that now owns all these sites? Address in UK:
    http://www.networksolutions.com/whois-search/leadershipgurus.net

    It looks like the site was down for a while. Did it change ownership?

  79. January 11, 2013 11:26 am

    The address is the same as it has been on the old LeadershipGurus website (the UK address). Whois records went from being private to public. Evgeniy is the person who originally registered the site in the first place. I’m certain that Arthur C. is still in charge of the site.

  80. Raquel Peters permalink
    January 11, 2013 1:13 pm

    Adan- Is that what Orrin is trying to say that someone else owns the company now? It still doesn’t negate that only 3 ip addresses voted for Orrin and Chris and put them in the top and that they were kicked out for it! It doesn’t matter who owns the site anyway. LOL! It seems they are caught with their hands in the cookie jar! 🙂

  81. January 12, 2013 7:20 am

    Hey Amthrax,

    “Readers can learn more about Carmazzi’s background here, here, and here. By his own account, his professional life has been a roller-coaster of ups and downs.”

    The first two links on this sentence are broken.

  82. January 12, 2013 8:12 am

    @ExAmbot – The links have been updated with links to the Archive.org cached copies. Who knows how long they will stay there.

  83. July 6, 2013 11:04 pm

    Dear Sirs,
    What is the point in commenting or talking about who has done what to be on the ladder of leadership gurus?
    The moot question that needs an answer is whether all these gurus have a following or not? Are there postulates framed by them, being used or adopted, either by individuals or Organizations?
    To pull down one and boost the other, is a methodology, in adoption all across the globe, even in ‘Running of Governments”. Scales of support are tilted and the Governments ‘overthrown’. Opinions are converted to votes and anything can happen to those in power.
    I would like to suggest that let these gurus remain what they are and let them see their own contribution in the manner they wish to the same.
    Do we have a single body in the world which ‘stamps or scales’ the contribution of these leadership gurus and thus ladders them up?
    If No, then let us not clutter up the “Information” on such platforms which can otherwise contribute to the humans towards a better living by the Human Beings on Planet Earth!!
    Aalok
    India

  84. noteam permalink
    July 7, 2013 12:17 pm

    Aalok Sood (possibly aka Orrin) – the reason for the information regarding how almost 2,000 votes came from only 3 IP address is that it indicates the lack of integrity of Orrin Woodward and his followers. One of the key ingredients to leadership is integrity. Yet many are now finding out the lack of integrity of Orrin and his followers:

    Having people who are in bankruptcy on stage teaching financial principles and bragging about lifestyle during the very time they are going through the bankruptcy.
    Preaching against crosslining – yet the largest part of Orrins business has come as a result of his personal crosslining with other businesses.
    Claiming that he was suffering more than anyone else during the 6 months after he was kicked out of Amway – yet not disclosing the fact that he had received $3 million from MonaVie for bringing everyone over to MonaVie.
    Making it sound as if he were some kind of hero for standing up to Amway when in reality, he was the principle loser in a $25 judgement as a result of his lies and deception regarding Amway. And he was kicked out of Amway after repeatedly breaking Amways rules of conduct and being warned about it time after time.

    This man does not belong in the same list as people of integrity such as John Maxwell, Stephen Covey etc.

    Orrin Woodward belongs on a list with Bernie Madoff, Adolf Hitler, Jim Jones and others who have the same integrity level as him.

  85. Freedomhaha permalink
    July 7, 2013 6:21 pm

    Aalok Sood- This list is important because it is used as a marketing tool that ends up taking millions of dollars out of hard working peoples pockets based on deception.

  86. July 7, 2013 9:49 pm

    @Aalok Sood

    Your silly comments are about as useful as a steering wheel on a mule or these charlatans we are calling out are your friends that you are willing to prevaricate to protect them.

    Listen bud, before I sing all of kumbaya in locked hands with these MLM charlatans in MLM heaven I’ll first jump barefoot off a 6-foot step ladder into a 5 gallon bucket full of porcupines. No thank you very much. And I ain’t waiting on Jesus to get’em when he gets here, they are agettin’ whats comin’ to’em due to their actions so long as I (& others) got a breath.

    ExAmbot
    Texas!

  87. Vogel permalink
    July 7, 2013 9:57 pm

    Hey NoTeam, I love ya bro and agree with you 99.9% of the time but ya gotta lay off the Hitler analogies. OW is an a-hole con artist of the lowest order, but so far he’s hasn’t tried to to exterminate people in concentration camps.

    I don’t mean to embarrass you by bringing this up; I’m guessing that you just let your passion get the better of you and that made you leap into the Godwin’s Law abyss.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law

    You get a free pass this one time.

  88. noteam permalink
    July 8, 2013 5:48 am

    Vogel – thanks for the link. I guess my analogy to Hitler could be mis-interpreted. I was not referring to the genocide aspect of Hitler. But rather to the way so many people had lost their ability to think for themselves in a rational manner in an effort to conform.
    But your point is well taken. I’ll refrain from the Hitler analogies.

  89. July 8, 2013 9:25 am

    The fact that Orrin has a loyal following doesn’t mean he’s a great leader…it only means he’s a great deceiver.

  90. Joecool permalink
    July 9, 2013 1:48 pm

    Jim Jones had a loyal following………

  91. Melanie Morgan permalink
    August 16, 2014 9:46 pm

    More lawsuits Orrin Woodward and Chris Brady are involved in with more current information: Woodward et al v. Chetvertakov et al and Woodward et al v. Carmazzi you can find at: http://dockets.justia.com/search?parties=Orrin+Woodward&cases=mostrecent

    Thought I would copy in this thread, since this could be an update and the link shows the lawsuits Orrin Woodward and Chris Brady have against Chetvertakov & Carmazzi.

    Check out the lawsuit at the above link, compare to all the research and information, get yourself fully informed.

    Does anyone else think these lawsuits could have anything to do with or the reason for the guru website retracting their original comments about the gaming of the votes?

  92. Helloeeze permalink
    August 18, 2014 7:38 pm

    My friend in Life touted Orrin Woodward, saying he was voted number 20 by Inc. magazine as a top leader. She said it’s an independent source and said that was good and gives validity to his leadership qualities. I guess it’s an online magazine though. Of course, he could have paid to get his name in there. But she cites this fact as a reason to respect Orrin Woodward.

    http://www.inc.com/jeff-haden/the-top-50-leadership-and-management-experts-mon.html

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