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Anti-Amthrax Blog

January 3, 2012

Amthrax-Amway Review is an anti-Amthrax blog that was set up in November, 2011.

The writer calls himself Steadfast and says that he’s been involved in the networking profession for a long time. He claims his primary income comes from networking.

Steadfast hypothesizes that a company is behind this blog:

How is it that these wonderful do-gooders have so much time to be reading and writing on Amthrax and other blogs if they aren’t being funded by someone, some company, or some sort of government handout?? Could it be that they have found their real purpose in life?

I cannot speak for those everyone who comments on this blog, but I can speak for myself. There is no individual, company, or governmental organization funding this blog.

Steadfast refers to the website in the following quote from this post:

On the other hand, I suppose there is some chance that these 6 bloggers have greater wisdom than Orrin Woodward and Chris Brady (see #7 & #12) the thousands who gathered in Columbus, OH this October for the pre-launch of LIFE

I look forward to Steadfast’s rebuttal about my investigation into and IAB.

While he’s at it, he can also comment on why George Guzzardo deleted his post regarding his strategic real estate default in Arizona.

Finally, if Steadfast is a LIFE member, he should also familiarize himself with LIFE’s policies and procedures and their restrictions on anonymous blogging. Responding to Negative Posts

Do not converse with one who places a negative post against you, other independent Members, or LIFE. Report negative posts to the Company at corpsupport@the-life- Responding to such negative posts often simply fuels a discussion with someone carrying a grudge that does not hold themselves to the same high standards as LIFE, and therefore damages the reputation and goodwill of LIFE.

121 Comments leave one →
  1. Vogel permalink
    January 3, 2012 8:17 am

    Wow, this is sad…but the desperation is mildly entertaining. The posts on the site are a muddled mess of flailing free-association, hypocrisy, and knee-jerk denial. My favorite part was seeing the breakdown on the numbers of posts from each of the regulars on Amthrax, as if that signifies anything of consequence. It amuses greatly me to imagine this pinhead (presumably a PC member) wasting his time tallying all of the blog posts.

    I’m amazed that this fool would stoop to such a level — anonymously registering the domain, disabling comments to ensure that the dialog is one-way only, and using the site as a platform to besmirch Amthrax and others for merely telling the truth.

    When the other side becomes this desperate, it’s clear that they have lost the battle for hearts and minds.

  2. Speak Your Truth permalink
    January 3, 2012 8:42 am


    “How is it that these wonderful do-gooders have so much time to be reading and writing on Amthrax and other blogs if they aren’t being funded by someone, some company, or some sort of government handout?? Could it be that they have found their real purpose in life?”

    Thanks for recognizing the ‘do-gooders’, see there is something you don’t understand there steadfast…..WE DO THIS FOR FREE, something we became accustomed to while we were with the team, you work for free only we were promised passive, residual on-going b-type business for the rest of our lives and had it all stolen!

    Now we have a real cause because we are convicted, have morals and values, will stand up for the truth and what is right and gladly do-good for free so others don’t have to suffer at the hands of those who enjoy lying, cheating, and stealing and accusing others to taking money for this. When you figure out that….then you will know what separates us from you!

    You could call this a grass roots effort for the Veritas Project! We have been working on this for a while, it is a great opportunity and the right thing to do, would you like to ‘join’?

    It is free and you will get paid NOTHING….it is only for the serious and those who are not greedy, you can’t lie, have to have heart and sincerely care to clean up the America from predators who prey on others at the deepest level and help those whom others have disposed of like a piece of trash after being ripped off, lied to, stolen from and betrayed so that by a chance others won’t have to…we are blazing the trail, but then you obviously don’t get it how anyone could care about others and do something without asking anything in return!

    No one is paying us…not even the ‘government’ but nice try..who is paying you?

    [Editor’s Note: grammatical changes for clarity]

  3. Speak Your Truth permalink
    January 3, 2012 8:52 am

    One last thing God + 1 is the majority!

  4. January 3, 2012 9:48 am

    @webelieved – I sent you an email with a copy of the three blog posts on the Anti-Amthrax site. I don’t think we should be giving it any more publicity by posting the text verbatim here.

  5. January 3, 2012 10:10 am

    I personally found the part where he said,

    “MLM’s are not games of chance. 100% of the people have the opportunity to make money.”

    Replace the word “MLMs” in there and put in “lottery” or “poker” (games of chance, though there is some skill with poker). You can see that the conclusion of 100% of people having the opportunity to make money is actually present in games of chance.

    Once again, an MLMer tries to scam others with false logic. They wonder why people would be against MLM. It’s because they try to trick people like this.

  6. Kathy permalink
    January 3, 2012 11:44 am

    All I can say is that my boyfriend gave it his all, still is, and now he losing his house and filing for bankruptcy. Glad he never asked me to join. Thank you Amthrax for exposing all of this mess!

  7. Speak Your Truth permalink
    January 3, 2012 11:54 am


    My heart goes to your boyfriend and yourself. What a testimony, thanks for sharing.

  8. January 3, 2012 12:52 pm

    Greetings all… and a Happy New Year it is indeed! Wow…the scrambling by TEAM/LIFE started a little earlier in the year than I thought it would…but it has begun just the same. I had a feeling that this was going to be the year that this gong show of a “business opportunity” went down in flames. I found it interesting that they’ve reached the point where they feel it is necessary to post a counter propaganda website, that has had the comments section blocked so that their ridiculous posts can’t be challenged.

    It kinda reminds me of a scene from the movie Shawshank Redemption, where the main character Andy is writing letters to receive extra funding for the prison library. He finally gets a letter back, and they throw him a small amount of cash in hopes of having the letters stop. Does it stop him? NO… he doubles his efforts and starts writing his letters twice a week instead!!! Thanks Anti-Amthrax or Steadfast! We shall double our efforts to get the truth out there!

    I believe it was Orrin himself that used to say all the time… you can put lipstick on a pig… but it’s still a pig! Well…. the facts are funny that way! They are still the facts! Here’s another great leadership “guru” quote for ya….”Show me your facts….cause I’ll show you mine”.

  9. Kathy permalink
    January 3, 2012 12:58 pm

    Beautiful post Punisher! LOL!

  10. Kathy permalink
    January 3, 2012 1:02 pm

    Thank you for your support SYT. I’m hoping that 2012 will be the year that he will see the light.

  11. Finally permalink
    January 3, 2012 1:08 pm

    Amthrax, I will look for the settlement from Q so you can post it for the other bloggers to read. it is interesting that they said it doesn’t exist yet It is in black and white. Cant wait to hear their explanation. It gives the amounts that each was dinged for including 58,000 + dollars for anonymous blogging after the gag order….I would ask them with God as their witness to make the claims that they do on the their blog about the judgement. The whole truth not the partial truth, the whole truth not twisting the truth to benefit them, the whole honest to God truth. Show your testimony guy’s not rhetoric, or twisted logic, the truth. The truth about the Rattz’s, the truth about the Morgan’s, not telling people to ask questions. The proof people have of going from 5 figure monthly incomes to 3 figure monthly incomes overnight? I guess all the paper work people have doesn’t exist? I guess people that have emails don’t have them……….We will see….won’t we……… of integrity expect to be believed and when they’re not they let time prove them right. If they are right we will all be found out as bitter to nothing bloggers. But, if we are right…….and the truth of all we say comes out then their blog will be exposed……….and so will we 🙂 So if we are who they say we are then we will all look bad, ditto for them.

    Oh and to their blogger, probably Chris Brady, I will take your prayers, I need them. I will do the same for you guy’s. That you will admit one day what we are saying, not speculating, from personal documented experiences.

  12. Speak Your Truth permalink
    January 3, 2012 2:27 pm

    Welcome back Punisher, I guess you would be #7, why can’t they get their ‘facts’ correct, after all the spent all that time tally up just how many bloggers and post they have up…hahaha!

    I guess the ‘anonymous blogger’ (or to quote the lie.fers.. from Orrin and his cronies; nameless, faceless, coward)…from the anti-amthrax blog must have ‘distorted the facts’ because there is more than 6 ex-team bloggers…

    Quote; ” Six (6) Ex-Team Members Focused on Protecting Others From Achieving Success”…also states; the ‘negative and inaccurate.” Inaccurate?

    I believe his number is inaccurate and distorted. Perhaps he should go through and get the facts correct before he does all that work, someone must be ‘paying him’ with so much time miscounting and reading Amthrax.


    I agree THE WHOLE TRUTH as God as the witness.

  13. Speak Your Truth permalink
    January 3, 2012 3:28 pm


    I am with you and your hope for 2012; that the light becomes blinding, so it can no longer be denied.

  14. January 3, 2012 3:31 pm

    I couldn’t help but notice that in true Woodward fashion, there is no allowance for open discussion and commenting by those who may disagree.

    If you have to control your message that much, then your message really sucks.

  15. brent hansen permalink
    January 3, 2012 3:56 pm

    Hey Speak, don’t leave me out. Pick me, pick me, can I be number 8?

  16. Speak Your Truth permalink
    January 3, 2012 4:14 pm

    Sorry Brent you are already ‘picked’ and I think you were #6 out of 7 (read the anonymous bloggers site=Anti-Amthrax) so you need to pick up the pace…hahaha. But the greatest thing is where in the world or has it ever been done before where there is the top 7 guru bloggers all on 1 blog?? Hmmm….who can beat that?

  17. Speak Your Truth permalink
    January 3, 2012 4:18 pm


    I am going to go under those posts and type nothing under them but HI to everyone hundred times….because I can game the system and cheat my way to #1 !!!!!! hahahahahahahah

  18. Speak Your Truth permalink
    January 3, 2012 4:19 pm


    The anonymous blogger even uses percentages…right up your alley!!! LOL

  19. Speak Your Truth permalink
    January 3, 2012 4:24 pm

    Did you forget…you are the co-author and my fax is burning up and smoking from the pre-orders!!!!! Lmao!

  20. Speak Your Truth permalink
    January 3, 2012 4:37 pm

    We will sell it for 99 cents cuz be are entrepreneurs and will be millionaires and Amthrax supscription is only 99 dollars the best prices in the industry then we will have Brent create an unfair comp plan!

  21. Speak Your Truth permalink
    January 3, 2012 4:48 pm

    Good point! They had to create an anonymous blogger/blog specifically about Amthrax and the “6 (lying) naysayers”…because? lmao!

    Can’t Their legitimate lie..f changing ‘busines opportunity’ stand up to the scrutiny of 6 naysayers? Hmm…. Wow, they are spending a whole lot of time on just 6 people who no one should/ would listen to anything they say and couldn’t make it in the team?

    Very telling.

  22. Finally permalink
    January 3, 2012 5:16 pm

    Just so the anti anonymous bloggers get it right i did find and send a copy of the Q lawsuit judgement to Amthrax in a pdf file. I guess it doesn’t exist so we won’t be reading what we are reading……….

    Okay so the Team anonymous bloggers questions the “former” team leaders on here saying we couldn’t have been good leaders……so I will summarize some of the top 3 Team leaders.

    Orrin mentors Chris and Tim, right? Right. So Orrin is the #7 leader guru and Chris #12, according to their vanity poll. How is it then that Orrin, financial guru financier has 3 people immediately connected to him as a leader file bankruptcy while building Team??? I mean Tim showed video of Joe Darkangelo’s retirement on Tim’s bus, so if Tim is mentored by the #7 leader guru and a leader always knows intimately what his leaders are doing, how could Darkangelo ever go bankrupt???? Tim mentors Joe and Orrin mentors Tim, how can that be mr. leaders??? Now answer the same question with Chuck and Nancy Cullen. Again, Tim mentors them, Orrin mentors Tim. How about Huber??Brady mentors Huber’s and Orrin mentors Brady……… can this be??? We won’t even go to Hubers personal failings. So again I ask the team anonymous blogger to please characterize for all us unemployed lowly people just how that can be….Plz let us know.

    What else do we know about the top 3 team leaders………Each and everyone of them lied under oath in the Q lawsuit. They were asked under oath if they had a competing business model with Q and if they were soliciting, aka raoidoimng their Q downlines, they each answered NO, under oath after swearing in to tell the truth…………I know that our up line told us repeatedly about the energy drinks and bars and even how they were ready to launch. They even stated that they were at the tasting of the products along with other round tables..So how is it they claim to be leadership gurus under oath and then lie in a court of law???????? As they anonymous team blogger said in his post, “you have to question the leadership of the man” especially one that lies under oath during the week and preaches the gospel on the weekend…………

    One other common lie that is provable by all the profit sharers that heard Orrin state repeatedly that he would not use team profit sharing for the lawsuit. How can someone take money from legitimate profit sharers to pay for a lawsuit they did not file or even agree to??? This is where they may have some legal problems…….that is stealing. The money did not belong to them, it belongs to those that earned at and had be receiving it for years. He cut peoples incomes from 10 to 15 K per month down to 500 dollars per month while he was taking 500 to 600 K per month. WOW what a great leader, Orrin is the man. I wonder what his interview is going to look like if this stuff get’s out into the public. There are a couple news sources looking at the possibility of story like this from what I have heard. They love it when a greedy person takes advantage of his friends and the ones who are earning his lifestyle. I would like the anonymous blogger to ask Orrin how that interview is going to turn out………..Remember Bernie Madoff.

    You see they won’t answer this stuff. They will attack us personally because they know the TRUTH. Can you imagine when Tims text to raatz is shown on screen and then they switch a shot to his fourth floor prayer room. Hey I am all for a prayer room but to parade that out on stage and then steal from a friend…………Is he going to deny it? Or will they cite the contract profit sharers signed “under Duress” Their contract makes Q’s contract look legal.

    Yes we have job’s just like Orrin, Chris and Tim. Yes they are self employed. Plain and simple………Chris did take a month off and go to Italy, let him take 6 and not talk to Orrin the whole time……..i bet that would be interesting. They need to work the business or it disappears………

    One other thing, the quitter accusation they have made in the past.

    • Orrin Quit colllege and GM
    • Chris quit GM after they paid for his masters degree… now that’s character.
    • Claude quit defending the country he swore an oath to defend…
    • Tim quit on the Raatz’s as well as drinking and smoking… (hey I know drinking and smoking are bad….kinda like the team is for thousands, so if they can accuse us of being quitters, we can too)
    • Orrin quit on Pastor and slandered him and his sons.
    • Brady used his influence to tell his team to leave Pastors church for no good biblical reason.

    Guzzardo quit on and slandered the Morgan’s….plenty of proof there too……

    Do they really want all this stuff public? The lie’s, the wrongs committed.

    I will say again to the anonymous blogger, tell those guy’s to continue to pray for me….i will pray for them as well. All three of the top leaders have preached the Gospel from a pulpit acting as men of God…….. and then mislead and give unbiblical advice as men of God……. that is a dangerous thing to do…….. God most likely is angered by that because they can rip on me as much as they want. But when they pray to God tonight and any other time they pray, let them tell God what they are saying about us, let them plead their case to God about how we are “lying” about them and what they have done. You see they are worried about what man and their teams think when they should be worried about what God knows……… i certainly am when it comes to me……….

    That’s right team leaders, write on your blogs and speak to the almighty himself about how you are being lied about. Pray to God for forgiveness for us for the lies we are supposedly telling. Tell God Orrin, that you did not lie under oath, or that you did not take profit sharing and steal profit sharers money. Maybe I and other’s on here are wrong…….if I am I will ask for forgiveness from God himself…………What will do about all you have done? God knows the truth Orrin and company, he knows what happened to the Raatz’s and the Morgan’s and others…….and so do you……..

    [Editor’s note: Edited for clarity.]

  23. Speak Your Truth permalink
    January 3, 2012 5:44 pm

    Hi Finally! Just trying to get my rankings up and beat out webelieved…lol! Just kidding. 🙂

    Amazing Post!!!! Sincerely…that was incredible.

  24. Vogel permalink
    January 3, 2012 6:18 pm

    You guys crack me up! And you’re informative too.

    Orrin reminds me of the mouthy little schoolyard bully with a Napoleon complex who finally gets his ass handed to him and then quickly learns to smack-talk only when’s he’s around little guys that he can get away with picking on. But when he gets near the seniors, he knows enough to keep his head down and his mouth shut.

    That’s what’s going on here. Orrin got away with his bullying BS for years, and now he’s reaping the ultimate reward — getting his ass kicked. And how does he fight back? By coming here and trying to win the debate with facts and logic? It seems that he and his cronies made a few frail attempts to do that here covertly; their arguments got destroyed, they made themselves look even worse, and then they ran away. And now they cower, creating their own echo-chamber websites so that they can listen to the sound of their own voices engaged in a cowardly, disingenuous one-way dialog. Meanwhile, the crickets are chirping (and the distributors are bailing).

  25. Finally permalink
    January 3, 2012 6:42 pm

    Thank you speak and we believed. And great job Vogel. They are bullies an cowards, they do not even admit what they have done although they know what they have done. Again, have Orrin state public, with God as his witness that all the accusations on here are untrue…….Come on Orrin, you are a leadership Guru and self professing Christian leader. You should have no problem setting the record straight with God as your witness. Say the words, God, with you as my witness and with eternal consequences for what I a saying all the bloggers on Amthrax are lying about me. I have not taken away any incomes, I have not lied under oath, I have not mislead or lied to any leaders for personal gain. I have given all the team leaders the incomes they have earned and have not given Any un earned profit to anyone on team like others have claimed I have done………
    I know this is ludicrous to suggest but there is not way he would ever say these things because he couldn’t, not even Orrin will go on record saying all of these things to God.

    I might add that I do not consider myself any less a sinner than any of these men………..

    Best wishes Team Lief, if you are doing as you say you will be blessed, if not………….

    Oh and just because Orrin speaks does not mean what he say’s is righteous….. To quote Casey Combden, if a thousand people say something stupid it is still stupid ………

  26. Vogel permalink
    January 3, 2012 6:58 pm

    “I know this is ludicrous to suggest but there is not way he would ever say these things because he couldn’t, not even Orrin will go on record saying all of these things to God.”

    Really??? Ummm…just gotta say…I bet he would in a heartbeat…go on stage in front of an audience with his hands clasped together, on his knees, lying through his teeth to God. If I had to put money on it, I know where I’d place my bet.

  27. brent hansen permalink
    January 3, 2012 7:14 pm

    Finally, I have to say I rather enjoyed your post. They can say what they say, and do what they do but in the end truth can never be dispelled. Since Orrin loves to quote Churchill here is one to think about.

    “The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it, ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is.” Winston Churchill

    No amount of rhetoric, hype, bandwagoning, framing, hyperbole, ambiguity, optimistic bias, stereotyping, irrational escalation, or any other ridiculous, idiotic, practice, speech,action or comments can make the untrue become true. Not only do the stories and experiences in this blog reflect that, but it is reflected by mere mathematics (which I failed in college).

    A product based pyramid scheme (Life) has always, and will continue, to redistribute wealth from the masses and put in into the pockets of the few. And those few will always continue to lie, manipulate, steal, dishonor, and deceive to keep their hands on that money.

    True leadership is not words alone but both a eagerness and willingness to give up millions of dollars of personal wealth to HELP those who need a real opportunity. And a full commitment and belief that there is truth in the statement that says “If you help enough other people get what they want in life, what you want will come automatically.”

    Since over 40% of the compensation dollars available from the Life plan are going, and will continue to go to less than 1% of the member force, this plan has been, and will continue to be a downright filching of the vulnerable. End of story!

  28. Finally permalink
    January 3, 2012 7:41 pm

    Well said Brent, well said…..
    I guess that is what I am silently suggesting Vogel, Orrin will say anything to give himself credibility, but if he did that………..the way I suggest, would make a few of his leaders that know what we say to be truth uncomfortable to say the least. I know which ones it will too. His time is coming, and I do not mean that in the positive light.

  29. January 3, 2012 7:52 pm

    @Finally and all:

    Here is a link to the 2009 JAMS Arbitration judgment. Remember, this was back in 2009, and they settled out-of-court in 2010.

    Found this information on

  30. Vogel permalink
    January 3, 2012 8:35 pm

    Interesting point Finally. Thanks for explaining the nuances of the situation.

    Really great post too Brent. All y’all are on fire!

  31. God is Love permalink
    January 4, 2012 12:08 am

    If they had nothing to hide, then they wouldn’t need to defend themselves with attacks right back… And many attacks back on amthrax as well. Pretty sad.

  32. Finally permalink
    January 4, 2012 4:46 am

    Thanks Amthrax, that was the judgement and we have no way of knowing for sure what was actually paid paid out…….except I was told by a PC member what the total of the final payout was, which was 25 million. I asked him “So I hear the lawsuit is over?” his answer- “yep, it’s over…..cost us 25 million but it’s over” For whatever that is worth.

    As far as the anonymous blogger commenting that we have found our purpose in life……….he may be right, if bringing attention to a business that has bankrupted and hurt many that bought their false propaganda and the truth about men that lie for personal gain…..then that is a noble purpose and I will take that.

  33. January 4, 2012 6:21 am

    Finally – Great post. It is clear to me that Orrin has been reading his own press clippings for so long that he actually can’t tell what the real story is anymore. He is so self deceived, that I think he actually believes what he is saying! That’s what makes him seems so sincere to his devoted followers…. and let’s face it….for long periods of time many of us on this blog were right there with him!

    The information that is being shared on this blog however is SO powerful! A person hand dipped in the “system” for a long period of time comes on here and starts to read this, and I think it actually doesn’t compute! It’s so far away from how they represent themselves in the vacuum like environment of constant meetings, and “association”! I think TEAM “Leaders” are terrified of this blog! You see we don’t have to try to convince anybody of anything…all we are saying is if you don’t believe what you read here…. go back and start asking some tough questions! If you won’t ask those questions of your “Leaders”….what are you afraid of? Could it be….the answers???? Truth is a powerful thing…. you can shake it off and dismiss it, but your mind keeps bringing you back…it’s what happened to me!

  34. humiliated permalink
    January 4, 2012 6:56 am

    I agree MLM Punisher. I know that Orrin targets “six” people on here (again, a thinly veiled threat that he “knows who you are”) and I am not one of them, but I keep reading about his sociopathic tendencies and I feel like the public MUST be warned about this financial predator. One could say that I wasn’t involved with TEAM so this is NOT my fight but I come back to social responsibility and I can’t walk away until this man (and his accomplices) are taken down.

    Vogel, without a doubt this man would stand up and swear to his God (it is not the same God that the rest of the Christian population believes in) that he hasn’t committed all of these horrible acts. I competely agree. Orrin doesn’t have an honest bone in his body but I still can’t help but pity those who have fallen under his spell and believe every word he says. We have all been disappointed by someone in our lives but I can’t imagine what you all felt when you found out that your “mentor” was just a big, lying sack of sh%t.

    In any event, the fact that they have created this weird Anti-Amthrax blog is because you all ARE becoming a huge threat to their bottom line and it is a beautiful thing to watch them scurry around like rats on sinking ship.

    I tip my hat to all of you for not backing down and a special shout out to you Amthrax, you are doing a great thing here.

  35. January 4, 2012 9:51 am

    Here is the confirmation of the arbitration award, filed in 2010. Again, they settled this out-of-court, but there are some interesting nuggets.

    For instance, on page 30, there’s discussion about Orrin’s solicitation of IBOs to join him in MonaVie:

    Respondents then issued coordinated statements in which they announced that they were joining Petitioner’s competitor, MonaVie, and listed their reasons for doing so. This record includes evidence that would readily be characterized as solicitations; most notably, in a blog entry in which Orrin Woodward announced his decision to join MonaVie and gave his reasons for doing so, he stated, “If you knew what I knew, you would do what I do.”

    First, they assert that to the extent Petitioner relies upon blogs and website postings to establish violations of the non- solicitation provision in the Rules of Conduct, such passive, untargeted communications fail as a matter of law to qualify as actionable solicitations. Yet, common sense dictates that it is the substance of the message conveyed, and not the medium through which it is transmitted, that determines whether a communication qualifies as a solicitation. The above-quoted statement from Respondent Woodward’s website, for example, is readily characterized as an invitation for the reader to follow his lead and join Petitioner’s competitor MonaVie, and this is true despite the diffuse and uncertain readership of the site.

    Looks like the law didn’t agree with Orrin’s argument that he did not solicit people to leave Amway/Quixtar and join MonaVie. This comment back from 2009 after the original JAMS judgement:

    Ty, I hope all is well. The arbitration award is far from final and with the recent ruling by a Federal judge in Utah that former IBO’s should not go through Amway’s arbitration, we will see what happens. There are several major pieces of evidence that were denied us in our defense that is now coming to light. In either case, if the judicial system rules that we must pay after hearing the facts, we will bond and continue to fight for justice. I will never surrender to tyranny and if Amway can point to even one person that I solicited to leave Amway then I ask them to name them? I haven’t nor ever would solicit anyone as I believe that someone convinced against their will is of the same opinion still. If people call me and ask me to be in business, that is free enterprise and that is what networking is. Keep leading with character and have a Merry Christmas. I feel confident in the final outcome no matter what the ruling. Good wins and evil loses. God Bless, Orrin

    Words and ideas have consequences, don’t they, Orrin?

  36. Speak Your Truth permalink
    January 4, 2012 11:10 am

    Finally Amen!

    That was my thoughts too on Mr. anonymous anti-Amthrax blogger, problably the closest he came to the truth of all that spewed rhetoric and propaganda. For now at least, we could be considered to be like those in the movie…. ‘The Help’…but are more the grass roots effort for the VERITAS Revolution. I feel it is an honor and a moral obligation, our new found “purpose”; perhaps we are called to pick people up off the rag heap of disgarded..Team Lie..f garbage pile or prevent them from that rag heap. (rag pickers)

    I feel the sincerest gratitude towards Amthrax and all the rest of the 6 naysayers, on here..LOL; now seriously..Amthrax, Humiliated, Vogel, Me, and many others who by the way aren’t ‘ex-teamers’ just good people who sincerely care about the truth and justice…the real hero’s.

    Correct me if I am wrong, but Amthrax, Humiliated, Vogel, Me, and many other commenter’s, who aren’t ex-teamers; AREN’T getting ‘paid’ or on some ‘big company payroll,’.. ‘MLM competitors’ who just come here because those bogus accuations…the ‘competitors’ is my favorite and has got to be the most paranoid BS… for being on Amthrax, or getting paid from the ‘government.’…(implied welfare checks).

    Who knows perhaps we all are getting paid or work for the FBI, the IRS or DOJ.. getting paid by the ‘government’?

  37. Speak Your Truth permalink
    January 4, 2012 1:37 pm

    To Mr. Anonymous anti-Amthrax blogger;

    He said; “If everyone will pray for these nice people perhaps they will be able to find good full-time employment and/or otherwise contribute something positive to society like maybe volunteering all their obvious extra time to something like The Salvation Army. Or perhaps they are already on a big company’s payroll or could they really be so bitter over their lack of success to spend so much time justifying it?”

    First off, you and the Team Lie..f..ers.. Bash jobs and bosses, cleverly and deftly use their rhetoric mixed with their ideology, and prey on those ‘nice people’s’ desires to benefit the PC’s selfish ill- gains; giving false hope to many thousands of ‘nice people.’ They continually tell people they should get rid of their jobs or worse; use their tactics to get others to believe they are a ‘losers’ if they have jobs..who wants to work for someone else for 45 years to end up…dead, broke, and disabled…the ‘doom & gloom’ techniques.

    NOW, Mr. Anonymous, you’re asking for prayers for some of those same ‘nice people’ on here to get a ‘good full-time job’?…So which is it? You display the perfect example of why you have NO influence and no one listens to you…Same ole, double messages, twisted greedy, and manipulating agenda.

    Can someone PLEASE…call the Guru’s and help me think? Lmao!….Should I get a ‘loser J.O.B. where you will NEVER get your ‘goals and dreams’ and only make your boss richer…or do I NOT get a J.O.B. and dump that sorry boss who is legitimate? I am so confused…LOL

    And lastly, on an even more serious note… You can stop pretending to play God… telling us how to spend our time or how we could ‘positively contribute to society’ it is condesending; Tell your true motive.. You and the rest of the PC…just want the ‘6 naysayers’… To shut up and quit telling the truth; isn’t that the right? You are all so scared of the truth and obviously know Amthrax and them 6 naysayers are ‘making a difference’ but can’t even admit it. Get a clue, lesson repeated until lesson learned. It is going to take some serious humbling…fixing the core problem…We aren’t your problem as much as you want to ‘blame’ us for it. When you accept that you can begin to change the real problem… The flawed ‘business opportunity’ with the unarguable mathematics, the deception recruiting and lies, the cover ups of the truth, the intentionally withheld ‘whole truth’ to deceive the masses, the ‘history’, All of it, will continue to haunt you until you fix those core issues.

    Isn’t it why you even started the ‘anonymous’ blogging and spending all your time with your opinionated bs and and the rest of your rhetoric.. Insanity? Your techniques are not working…You cannot fight truth with lies!!!….You will never win that battle!! And aren’t you trying to ‘trick’ the remnant left and any ‘new prospect’ into not ‘believing or discrediting us, or anything we say;….isn’t that right? You Created a whole blog to try and discredit Amthrax and 6 lowly naysayers who have no influence and are just naysayers…really?

    Well with the only 2 guru’s in 1 buisness in the WORLD? The copied Amway business model called Team Lief (nothing original), ….with their so called ‘leadership’.. vanity awards and guru status, you have to worry about 6 little naysayers…Seriously?…Hahahaha! Go build your business and ‘prove it.’ But do it without the deceptive lies and techniques…then evaluate your results.

    You implied, we are getting paid from the ‘government’.. welfare system or ‘big company payroll’ who couldn’t make it in Team? Hmm…Don’t insult people’s intelligence or try and belittle others who did the work…Use true ‘leadership’,…Dig deep…Turn to God for the answers on how to correct all the damages and you know what to do to right your wrongs…correct the core problem…confess…take responsibility..stop the progagnda and spinning..the lies,Pay restitution, quit ‘blaming’ Amthrax, the ‘government,’ the 6 naysayers.. Humble yourselves..Stop lying and deceiving people with the bogus passive, residual ongoing, willable income!

    That might be a start to get others to slow down or ‘shut up’ which is your agenda.

    Don’t you think the people you are trying desperately to discredit and the rest of the world can’t see right through your desperate tactics? You are self-deceived.

    As far as your insincere ‘prayer’ request.. Do you think God doesn’t know the intentions of your heart? I personally would not take your request for the ‘prayers’ as anything close to sincere, as a matter a fact I believe they are a superficial pile of insincere digs; due to the rest of your whipped up spinster comments and the last sentence (the real message you wanted to send).

    It would have been best for you to leave the insincere prayer request out…not for us but for the sake of your own soul and conscience.

  38. Speak Your Truth permalink
    January 4, 2012 1:55 pm

    MLM Punisher…You Nailed it..Great Comments!

  39. Hershall Sweet permalink
    January 4, 2012 2:19 pm

    This is the best thread I have read in a long time! I feel really close to you all and appreciate all your contributions an awful lot. It seems like there’s momentum building. It seems like the shadows that have hidden the truth as well as the shadows that have kept information hidden are coming into the light. The L.I.F.E. business doesn’t appeal to prospects because everyone has heard about Ambots and it seems very very cultish to the uninitiated. I hope that the initiated figure it out soon too. I wish I could help more than I do.

  40. No Team For Me permalink
    January 4, 2012 2:49 pm

    Interesting how Anti-Amthrax tried to claim that because so many leaders didn’t stick with the Morgans, that somehow that meant the problem was with the Morgans. Using this philosophy, what does this say about Orrin when we bring up names like Pastor Dickie, Bobbie Dickie, Haugens, Wilsons, Goetschel, Lance Smith, Libby, Billy & Peggy Florence, Don & Chris Freeze, DiSalvatore, Sims, Effie Reid? These are some pretty big leaders with access to a lot of inside info.

    Speaking of which, I think it is now pretty obvious that Haugen, Florence, Wilson, Goetschel, Smith, DiSalvatore, Libby must have had some good inside knowledge about the ethics of TEAM when they pulled out of the lawsuit. Actions such as the anonymous blogging by Orrin & Tim Marks are examples of behavior that probably led them to leave.

  41. Speak Your Truth permalink
    January 4, 2012 3:58 pm


    I second your comments at Jan 3 @ 6:20…Vogel has Orrin pegged to a tee, it is quite amazing…and the dictionary we have to carry around between him and my 12 year old…I need one handy at all times!…LOL

    My 12 year old loves words and loves to make them up…my favorite most recent one is “SMARTICLES” 🙂 I think of all you pro-bloggers on here when I think of that word!…You guys rock!

    Brent you nailed it too on Jan 3 @ 7:14..great comments.

    Did you check out the those numbers and percentages?… Right up your “smarticle” alley! hahaha

    BTW~ I am glad you earned your way to the top 6 guru blogger spot, you way deserve it..Great Job!!!

  42. Finally permalink
    January 4, 2012 4:20 pm

    Webelived, Speak, MLM punisher. noteamforme, humiliated…all great posts. It is amazing how this site has “ruffled the feathers” of the supposed top leadership gurus in the world……..How can that be?? We are all whiners, quitters and whatever else they call us. There is one problem…….We know the truth, and if it were not the truth they would not have launched a site in an attempt to debunk what we all know. They know when they lay their head down on their pillows at night that what they have read on here is true. They know because they did it and they know they did it. Orrin organized meetings to have his teams leave Q. At the time he made the statement on his blog that he didn’t he did not think anyone would evert speak out against him………OOPS.

    The anonymous blogger made a statement about how Orrin is soooooo smart, okay if he is soooo smart why is there a paper trail a mile long and wide of most of what has been said about him on here?? Did he forget all the emails he sent, text messages they sent or documents they signed?? Oh well that stuff is for another day.

    Keep up the fight. It is about bringing the truth to light. That is it.

    Oh, I made the 6….Woo Hoo!! Great job on being number one Webelieved!!

  43. Speak Your Truth permalink
    January 4, 2012 4:38 pm


    Congrads…Fired up buddy..keep rockin…proud of ya man…You are in the Top 6 guru bloggers….hahaha!

    Great points…Orrin likes people to ‘promote’ him as a genius….but we all know better….if a genius is taking the complex and making it simple…I believe he would NEVER get that promotion. He is a con and master of trying to confuse with spinning and lying. We will see when it is all catches up, just how ‘smart’ he has been! 🙂

  44. Speak Your Truth permalink
    January 4, 2012 5:11 pm

    Finally & Webelieved ~

    We also know that Orrin was talking to people under a ‘gag order’…deliberately breaking the law!

  45. Vogel permalink
    January 4, 2012 8:37 pm

    So many good posts! This comment from Webelieved tweaked my imagination:

    “…a list of good books to read from Donald Trump, John Maxwell or some other leader at the library for free!”

    I think this is an important point that should be stressed more often. No one in their right mind should be paying jacked-up prices for the motivational books that TEAM/LieF sells, especially considering that a lot of the people that are roped into buying them aren’t exactly flush with cash. Going to the library and getting the books for free makes great financial sense. But even if someone wants to buy them to own, I bet they can be purchased used in near-mint condition from Amazon for a fraction of the price that Orrin charges.

    I was thinking I might be nice to have a handy list of those books, which would eliminate the need for a middle-man like Orrin and his surcharge for the service of making book recommendations (and rather obvious ones at that). It would also be interesting to do a comparison between the prices that TEAM charges versus the prices on Amazon (and how much can be saved by getting them free from the library). Any one up for the challenge?

    Although I also have to say that I think these types of books are way, way overrated. It seems a bit tragic that some people consume a steady diet of this stuff exclusively. What a waste of time IMO. There are treasure chests of knowledge in just about every other bookshelf in the bookstore; the self-help how-to-be-a-millionaire crap pales by comparison.

    What people need to get ahead financially is legitimate education, practical skills training, and good financial judgement. Continually paying for essentially useless quasi-advice from hacks like Trump and Kiyosaki just seems ludicrous to me. At the very least, I would think that one would get more practical knowledge simply by reading a few basic books like An Idiots Guide to Small Business.

  46. Finally permalink
    January 5, 2012 4:01 am

    I do not think Orrin aka The Victim, likes this page……….great point speak!! He did and does everything he claims that he does not do…It is kind of like the twilight zone. There are hundreds of people that know that Orrin was talking during the gag order and he organized and petitioned the mass exodus out of Q. Just another in the long list of lies.

    My wife and I buy books for wayyyyyyyy cheaper than the gouging we took on team. A friends up line used to buy system books on amazon by the case and sell them from his trunk at the team price…..nice.

  47. Brent H permalink
    January 5, 2012 4:05 am

    Actually Webelieved, you already have the education. The books you, I and many others read were filled with thousands of nuggets of truth that simply didn’t apply to the model.

    Take the knowledge you have gained and apply it to the correct model or business and you will make it. My good buddy Mike has built a pyramid that has retired him with a six figure residual income. Only thing is, everyone who works within his company actually gets paid, no one has to lose in order for him to win, and he doesn’t have to run his pyramid with lies or deception.

    As of today, we still live in America, and you still can make the decision to do something great. Letting go of the past (but not forgetting it) is a major part of that . The things I have experienced have provided me with a major point of reference for many aspects of life and business, including character, ambition, drive, integrity, commitment, relationship skills, ROI, profit and loss, and of course compensation structures. These are all skills that are helping me in all of my current endeavors.

    You now know how to tell the difference between a real opportunity and a bogus one. A good person and a bad one, and a smart decision and a poor one. You can do it.

  48. Speak Your Truth permalink
    January 5, 2012 9:16 am

    My name is Speak Your Truth and I am a Bookalcoholic, I confess I have even read some great Ted Dekker ‘novels’ since I left the team. I love a variety! Because quite frankly..I can hardly gut the ‘memories’ of their forced choices in my life! Yep, oh my gosh, you say…Reading a novel?..It is no wonder I never ‘made it’ on the Team…hahaha

    Now before someone jumps to any conclusions that I am ripping on alcoholics, it is a joke and not my intention. I have tremedous empathy for anyone with an addiction.

    Brent~ Amen!

    Vogel has a great point also, there IS a ‘book list’ from the Team and I bet our host of host…Amthrax would be an excellent source for the comparison or anyone else who has great detail skills. 🙂 Someone like Brent..hahaha. That probably wouldn’t be me, unless of course..I had to! 🙂

  49. Freedomhaha permalink
    January 5, 2012 6:37 pm

    You guys are right about the momentum that is building. I know a lot of people that have found this site separately all of which are not on TEAM/LIfE. I really appreciate the time you guys put in because you are doing such a huge service by saving so many people (including myself). I found this blog while looking for Joe Darkangelo’s blog and stumbled upon his bankruptcy. Thanks again!

  50. 1MillionLIfES permalink
    January 5, 2012 7:22 pm

    Interesting that you guys ask for that. A couple weeks ago, I made a file with just a sampling of the books.

    If I remember correctly, I looked up the top 50 and tried to match the look of the book advertised on the L.I.F.E website. Where I could I used new prices, but in some instances new books were not available so I used the used price. I will send the PDF to Amthrax to post.

  51. Speak Your Truth permalink
    January 5, 2012 8:47 pm


    Thanks for your comments and contribution…now you can send in your 99 bucks.. ‘Membership fees’ to Amthrax as a profit donation to ‘hold your spot’..LOL… Just kidding.

    In all seriousness…I know how this blog has helped me; more than I could ever express. This is just one of reason I give back. This is why they have had to create an anonymous anti-Amthrax blog! Many, many more and those yet to come, will be helped and far more than we probably will ever even know about.

    Remember we are only “6 naysayers” ha!…or the theory of 6 people removed from knowing everyone in the world!” Got that covered..hahaha. Just A little tid-bit of rhetoric used by the MLM world to get you to believe you have plenty of prospects and could create a big team…(if my memory isn’t failing on the use of it) but because we never stopped long enough in the cult performance mode..To verify anything….that rhetoric should have stopped us all!

    Meaning it would saturate that much quicker or someone could be naive enough to believe they would all be on your team…lol.. Except they had an objection for that one too! And we all know it will never saturate because of the horrendous attrition and built in failure rates…. and on the other side of the coin.. it does saturate with the churning of the same ole recycled people, one’s who hop from 1 MLM scam to join another….Simon says… follow the ‘leader’ that has a personal agenda.. For those who Get paid to MLM hop. Except 99% of the people don’t know really why until hindsight and the facts come out.. Like Orrin’s 3 million dollar “loan.” This created a dog eat dog game under the dictators that were unscrupulous and desperately needed to rank obviously it was based on a (contingent; recruiting quota) to satisfy and turn the ‘loan’ and or turn it into a handout….which turned into many unethical, and some I believe illegal shenanigans.

    I believe this causes many to fight over the same people in the industry, for these reasons and there is no legitimate protection, territorial rights. or guidelines, like in legitimate sales… once they have people ‘hooked’ and believing there is nothing else on the planet.. But MLM, to achieve anything or any other purpose.. or God may have put you on the face of the earth for..those that are indoctrinated & brainwashed and fell for this belief, especially the unethical and parasitic ones who coerce and steal other leaders out of others groups either because they think they know it all and have an entitlement mentality or are so egoistical they believe they are the ‘best’ (cons) and deserve to steal others! I learned of some of them on our team, under the direction of the PC’s of course!

  52. Finally permalink
    January 6, 2012 5:31 am

    Okay, I just read the anonymous blogger stuff again and since I don’t have a lot of time, I will keep it brief.

    The blogger stated that he was impressed with the amount of money that got awarded and something to the effect that it was impressive because it showed how much money was available in MIM’s and that it was also impressive because everyone came in with the same opportunity and had the same chance in MLM……really? Hmmmm either you are slow or your employer’s did not inform you of their story in MV. Lemme splain, Lucy……….Orrin got 3 million to bring his team over…….he then registered thousands under him in a matter of weeks, qualifying him as a presidential Black Diamond. This is fact and not disputed, I watched the video of him accepting his checks for qualification. How is this the same and normie newbie that just signed up two weeks before Orrin??? Just curious as to your answer. I will give you your spin before you get a chance to write it.

    Orrin obviously built a large network at some point so he did start from zero..
    HA….He solicited Randy haugen, Billy florence and tens of thousands in there groups into team and they became part of his downline in MV GIVING him massive MV volume..another case of welfare….Next……

    Well Orrin started from zero at some point……..
    Yep, he did 1993 but that doesn’t mean he started from zero any time after that as well as that he violated his contracts and the law to build other MLM’s. Which he then stole profit sharer money to pay off the judgement, it wasn’t his own. So you see he is not legitimate in MV, he never built it. Nor did Tim or Chris. Oh they went out initially and signed some people up and bragged about it on stage but nothing they built ever contributed to their initial rankings or furthered them because NONE of them advanced ranks in MV……..pretty sad considering what rank they started at……Master networkers….really???

  53. TruthSeeker permalink
    January 6, 2012 6:27 am

    Did Team EVER break any ranks above ruby with new people who joined? I know the Legacy gang qualified with their shift of people and the excitement of a new company and then nothing. Most of the MV Legacy people have backslid since day one. Many are back to working jobs just as the guys on Team.

    Does anyone know of any MV pins from new people? MV was a major flop for all of those in Team and Legacy. The initial growth of MV was already on the decline, talk about bad timing into a horrible business model.

  54. switch permalink
    January 6, 2012 6:30 am

    Great post, Finally.

    So in other words, he’s gotten his $$$$ by slithering in and out of these MULTI-LEVEL-MARKETING companies for damn near 20 years.

    Plain and SIMPLE, the PC is nothing but 100% pure BULL$HIT!

  55. Finally permalink
    January 6, 2012 12:49 pm

    Great posts We!!! You have some personal knowledge it seems. I also have more personal knowledge via making real friends after I left Team You know, deep down it stinks, NOt is an “i gotcha” way, no, what they did and are doing is just wrong even by their own talks from stage their actions are wrong. Listen to Brady’s old copy of 67 reasons, he rips on everything they are doing, edifies Amway, without using their name, brags on how performance based team is and a bunch of other stuff they violate in their actions repeatedly.

    Another thing WE, Orrin doesn’t only believe his press clippings, he has the benefit if writing them as well (via his speeches). That is really sad. The sorriest I have felt for Orrin is after I learned how his leadership book hit number 1 and listening to his cd promoting it……..what a scam.

  56. Freedomhaha permalink
    January 6, 2012 5:06 pm

    “The better you are the less you have to talk about it” Orrin and TEAM miss this concept all the time. If the TEAM model was that good it would be everywhere, and would not cause 85-90% of good friends to have a queasy feeling when seeing the plan. Makes me sick.

  57. January 11, 2012 4:11 pm

    I noticed that many of these pro mlm defenders like to close comments on their blogs.

  58. January 12, 2012 7:31 pm

    You all play the victim, Good for you. Kathy, I’m sorry to hear your boyfriend is going bankrupt. I’m guessing there are other things that aren’t being said in that regard. To blame it solely on an MLM is pathetic of you.
    I’m also sorry that you ALL seem to have so much hate and negativity. How sad!
    Amthrax so far the only thing I’ve seen that I agree with you is your advice to a guy who’s brother sponsored him. You advised him to tell his brother and upline to lay off a bit and that this wasnt the opportunity for him and that he wanted to look into another.
    But other than that, this whole site is negative BS.
    I bet each and everyone of you work jobs and live a wonderfully mediocre lives. I wish you ALL the best of luck in your postings of negativity and hope you all don’t wallow in it too long!

  59. January 12, 2012 9:55 pm

    @so and so:

    Please point out your evidence proving that what we’re saying is BS:

    • Prove to me that the website is not a front for Arthur Carmazzi.
    • Prove to me that IAB is not as reputable as TEAM would like you to believe.
    • Prove to me that Orrin Woodward is not Qrush.
    • Prove to me that George Guzzardo did not initiate a strategic default on his Arizona property.
    • Prove to me that the Cullens, Darkangelos, and Hubers did not file for bankruptcy at the same time they were being praised for being such great TEAM leaders?
    • Prove to me that Orrin Woodward did not get a $3 million dollar loan from MonaVie to join.
      1. When I make a claim today, I do so with several facts to support my argument. You claim that this site is negative BS and that we’re all working jobs and leading mediocre lives. Where’s your facts and proof?

  60. January 13, 2012 6:07 am

    I love seeing commenters like So and So on this site. “this whole site is negative BS”. Clearly this is a knee jerk comment made after reading some truth and not having an explanation for what was read. Their brain can’t process this new information as it’s been beat down by the constant CD talk of TEAM “Leaders”. It’s OK So and so… but your response sounds something like this to me, “Oh yeah?….Well…..(crickets chirping in the background)….So there!”. The best part is that So and So actually did read some posts here, the door has been opened just a crack! Let the internal turmoil begin! You’ve taken the first step down the road to saving years of your life, and thousands of dollars a year!!! Another success story Amthrax!!

  61. January 13, 2012 7:56 am

    @Amthrax – I wasn’t clear, what I should have said is the comments that follow your posts are made by victims and that it is all negative BS. And I didn’t mean BS as in truth or not, I meant as in just what I said, negative BS. As in when someone is that negative it’s BS (BS to be so negative).
    I have no proof for or against your claims, nor do I care. I’m simply posting on the comments after.
    This small group of followers on your site do nothing but beat their chest and then pat each other on the back for it. Great! This actually makes none of you any better than the people you hate on and berate!
    I’m making an assumption when I said that most people on here work jobs and have mediocre lives, but I’m guessing I’m not far off (why would or do I need proof of that? I can use the 80/20 rule for this).
    You all prove the point of my first comment by posting the dribble you do. I could almost be certain you have these comments templated in a word doc for quick use!
    No guys, the door has not opened even a crack. You don’t even know what I do, you assume some how that I’m involved with TEAM, I don’t even know what that is, but yet you accuse me of being brainwashed! Don’t march to your own beat hey!?

    Being brainwashed is listening to the government institute and following the sheeple. (or your persistent chest beating and back patting here)

    The steps of social brainwashing:

    1) Go to school, get educated
    2) Get out and get a good job
    3) Retire and live off the pension and (insert name of your countries protected investment product)
    4) die

    I have been an entrepreneur for a while and regard MLM’s in some industries as a great (positive) learning experience.
    There are a lot of options out there, MLM’s, old fashioned biz, what ever. Working for someone else is not an option for me.

    I once owned a regular business, it was tough as all businesses are. Your output is directly related to your input. Same goes for any MLM, if you don’t work at it you will not succeed, simple as that.
    I’ve gone through bankruptcy, I’ve done the tough things. Will I stop and whine and play the victim? Nope I picked myself back up and marched on.

    You can all do the same, or you can post back and forth and make yourselves feel better and justify your own failures by blaming others. Choice is yours!

    The Slight Edge either works for you or against you!

  62. January 13, 2012 8:45 am

    “I have no proof for or against your claims, nor do I care” so and so. Ok, so whatever you say after that has no value to this blog. Until your willing to answer the questions that your avoiding go mess around on some other blog that you don’t about what they are writing.

    “you assume some how that I’m involved with TEAM, I don’t even know what that is” so and so. Hilarious lie. You sound like a CD and you can’t hide it. And the fact that you’ve gone through Bankruptcy makes it even more obvious that your a part of the team. Keep up the good work.

  63. Vogel permalink
    January 13, 2012 9:01 am

    So and So said: “The steps of social brainwashing:
    1) Go to school, get educated
    2) Get out and get a good job
    3) Retire and live off the pension and (insert name of your countries protected investment product)
    4) die”

    #4 is inevitable, and I’m guessing you avoided #1. Getting a good job (#2) and retiring (#3) sounds like a pretty interim good plan to me. It can be inferred that you’re proposing getting a bad job and never retiring as a better option.

    Speaking of brainwashing, it sounds like you had yours scrubbed with Borax and a Brillo pad.

  64. Speak Your Truth permalink
    January 13, 2012 9:21 am

    Punisher & Webelived~

    Great Points..”that is some ‘positive’..encourgement for you both! So, now what is this ‘positive BS’?

    So and So says; “I have no proof for or against your claims, nor do I care.”

    Really? Now I am positive you are a part of the MLM industry, you are a perfect fit. You don’t care whether this is Truth? Well that explains it, you just came here to ‘hate on’ and ‘berate’ the ‘victims’. that I consider that some serious hypocrisy and negative BS. Is this what you would post on the ‘victims’ website of the Bernie Madoff scheme.

    Let’s share some perspective..You have showed up to ‘hate on’ and ‘berate’ survivors that are whistle-blowers and doing the right thing and exposing the truth and you say we are not different than those we ‘hate on’ and ‘berate’..hmm interesting.

    You say: “I’m making an assumption when I said that most people on here work jobs and have mediocre lives, but I’m guessing I’m not far off “..

    Let us know who died and left you in charge of ‘assuming’ that by anyone having a ‘job’ equates to a ‘mediocre’ life, is this what you ‘berate’ your Doctor with?

    One last thing, you are obviously part of the “mlm industry” and do know about the Team….How do we know? It is called common sense… You show up on a site that is specific to that and exspoing Orrin/PC and the Team and expect people to ‘believe’ your BS that you “don’t even know what that is”…huh right.. hahaha, nice try there so & so. Don’t play anyone here for the fool… Your rhetoric is a dead give away.

    Thanks for letting us know that you don’t whine or aren’t blaming and playing the’victim’…is that what you told yourself while filing banckruptcy and wiping your debt slate clean when you ‘marched on’? Just curious, could that bankruptcy been due to the same ‘MLM’ industry that 3 (that we know of)..filed bankruptcies of the so called Big ‘leaders’ on the team? Perhaps this is why you don’t want to answer Amthrax questions or address any of the facts nor do you care?

    You could read every single ‘defender’ who has posted on this site.. that says they are NOT with the Team; that spews the same rhetoric..just curious, could it be that you need to prentend you ‘don’t even know what the team is’ due to their Policy and Procedures?

    The difference between those on here and you…is…we do care..and when you need some support, come to your senses, and realize it is WRONG to help perpetrate and support those who lie, deceive, steal, and cheat for their own personal gain and want to help those ‘victims’…we will ‘pat you on the back’..

  65. January 13, 2012 9:47 am

    @TEAM deception – Amthrax could be right for all I know, if you actually comprehended my post instead of going into defensive mode you might know that what I said was my BS comment is directed to the people leaving comments and not the content on the site. It could all be correct for all I know, and good for him if it is.
    I live in Canada, I don’t have a clue who or what Team is.
    I went into bankruptcy because I ran a webdesign business and didn’t run it very well, it had nothing to do with your conspiracy theory and I was only mentioning it because I’ve seen both sides of the coin.

    @Vogel – What I am saying (that you missed entirely) is that so many haters here are quick to point out that people in MLM’s are brain washed. My point is that most people are brainwashed at an early age by society into thinking the answer is working until you retire.
    Right now that doesn’t seem to be working well for all those retirees who lost there shirts in the recent recession (not to mention all the layoffs, and lost jobs)!
    I’m also trying to make a point that thinking outside the box, whether it’s an MLM, self employment or a regular old fashioned biz is the best way to get a head and create some independence and am not at all saying you should get a low paying job and not retire. How you got that I don’t know. Maybe cause you tell yourself what you need to to make your own crap make sense, which is the same thing everyone on here has said people from team do. Making you guys as big, if not bigger hypocrites.

    I’m not bashing anyone who chooses to get a job, just don’t slag others who are trying to make changes in there life. I was simply responding to someone pointing out how brainwashed I am. (which you kindly did again)

    Anyway, I won’t be following this thread as nothing useful to me and my life will come of it.

    (notice how I haven’t once tried discrediting any actual info on this site yet you all assume I’m a team spy sent to do so, making your own comments bring out your hypocrisy and negativity without having to do much myself. Your comments have validated my first post. I wish you all the best of luck)

  66. January 13, 2012 9:51 am

    @ Speak Your Truth
    I don’t even remember how I got here, looking up something to do with Amway I think and was interested in the Dean article. Not a bad post actually.

    Good luck guys, I really mean it.

  67. Speak Your Truth permalink
    January 13, 2012 9:53 am


    LoL! Thanks for the laughs. 🙂

    I wonder what so and so really cares about> Could it be robbing his downline; that wouldn’t be possible for him to get, if they didn’t give they hard earned imcome,from their those ‘jobs’ and ‘mediocre’ lives they live?

  68. Vogel permalink
    January 13, 2012 12:30 pm

    so and so said: “ I don’t have a clue who or what Team is.”

    Then you should have shown some humility and kept quiet until you got a clue, since TEAM is really the topic of discussion on this forum. You seem to be another one of those people who doesn’t grasp the concept of relevancy.

    “What I am saying (that you missed entirely) is that so many haters here are quick to point out that people in MLM’s are brain washed. My point is that most people are brainwashed at an early age by society into thinking the answer is working until you retire.”

    You unduly flatter yourself by thinking that anything you’ve said so far has gone over my head. People are quick to point out that MLMs use, colloquially speaking, brainwashing techniques. You can’t change that fact by trying to avert people’s attention to other (lame) examples of brainwashing. Encouraging children to go to school and get an education isn’t brainwashing; it’s commonsense, as well a legal and ethical responsibility. In essence, your argument boils down to “education and employment are scams; therefore, you can’t criticize MLM” — and for that, you deserve a slap upside the head.

    “Right now that doesn’t seem to be working well for all those retirees who lost there shirts in the recent recession (not to mention all the layoffs, and lost jobs)!”

    It’s working for them a lot better than it’s working for people who didn’t have jobs and 401Ks before the recession, and aside from that, MLM isn’t the solution; it just makes the problem worse.

    “I’m also trying to make a point that thinking outside the box, whether it’s an MLM, self employment or a regular old fashioned biz is the best way to get a head and create some independence and am not at all saying you should get a low paying job and not retire.”

    You’re not thinking outside the box; you’re hopelessly trapped inside it. Self-employment can be a good way to go for some people that have skills or can provide services/products that lend themselves well to self-employment. Selling BS overpriced fruit juice for a disgraced MLM isn’t an example of gainful self-employment.

    “I’m not bashing anyone who chooses to get a job, just don’t slag others who are trying to make changes in there life.”

    Actually, it seems pretty clear to me that you were in fact slagging such people. Notice that the topic of discussion here is not “making changes in life”. We’re talking about MLM and TEAM in particualr. Not all changes in life are good ones. Making the choice to sell MLM snakeoil on behalf of thieves and charlatans is an example of a bad change.

    “Anyway, I won’t be following this thread as nothing useful to me and my life will come of it.”

    Sayonara. I’ll hold you to that. Now, don’t let the door hit you.

  69. January 13, 2012 12:48 pm

    Vogel – you still miss it all and put what I say into your own context. Pointless to offer a rebuttal of any kind.
    And I couldn’t help myself.

    [Editor’s note: This comment was made by “so and so”]

  70. January 13, 2012 12:51 pm

    Oh… let’s put it this way. If I was looking into TEAM or anything else you are bashing and saw how biased and negative your comments are, I would never take you guys seriously. NEVER.

    [Editor’s note: This comment was made by “so and so”]

  71. January 13, 2012 1:02 pm

    Vogel – To comment on your “relevancy” poke. I’d like to add that I simply made an observation of what I’ve seen on this site by it’s little fan club. You opened the box when you poorly responded the first time.
    You again make it apparent that you can’t comprehend other people’s posts without feeling the need to protect your own set of self-beliefs and making very incorrect assumptions.
    I would not have made any of the comments you poorly picked apart if you hadn’t made the first one!

  72. Brent Hansen permalink
    January 13, 2012 4:14 pm

    @so and so, I find it amusing how you enter onto this blog and automatically assume that you are in the midst of mental midgets. Your posts appear as if you are here to try and give us all a little bit of education. Before I address your original post let me first list the reasons why I am here so you know that its just not to be part of a ‘little fan club’.

    1. I have a compelling affinity for truth, which is something greatly lacking in our current society.

    2. I enjoy the intellectual stimulation which can be gained through learning and understanding truth, and associating with those who tell the truth.

    3. I love rooting for the underdog, I would take David over Goliath any day of the week.

    4. I enjoy exposing people for who and what they really are, especially when their lives are facades.

    5. After 17 years in the ‘MLM’ industry, I understand a thing or two, and wish to right some of the wrongs I have helped perpetuate.

    Now to address your post and perhaps provide a little bit of insight to the personalities you so quickly attack. I will number your comments so I can better organize my thoughts.

    1. You wrote, “You all play the victim”, you couldn’t be further from the truth with this comment. As you can see in number 5 above,

    I have actually victimized many others by perpetuating the lie. Many on this blog were top-earners in the industry and perpetuated the problem as well.

    2. You wrote, “But other than that, this whole site is negative BS.” You then revised that comment to say that the comments people leave are negative BS.

    Do you believe that truth is negative? Each comment here is based on knowledge of the topic being discussed, how can you construe that as negative BS? Your quick comment without having knowledge of the topic exudes of ignorance.

    3. You wrote, ” I bet each and everyone of you work jobs and live a wonderfully mediocre lives.”

    Once again a silly and hasty judgement without knowing the truth about the people on this blog. I will not speak for anyone else, but I have been self employed for well over a decade now and between my wife and I we currently own and operate 4 different businesses. What would constitute mediocrity in your opinion? Are we mediocre? Is there some sort of a test that people here can take to find out if they are mediocre or not? Pretty stupid comment.

    4. You wrote, “Being brainwashed is listening to the government institute and following the sheeple. (or your persistent chest beating and back patting here)
    The steps of social brainwashing:
    1) Go to school, get educated
    2) Get out and get a good job
    3) Retire and live off the pension and (insert name of your countries protected investment product)
    4) die”

    I have to tell you, that sounds just like something you must have heard from a cd or seminar. This is classic MLM lingo that is used to make people feel like MLM is their only answer. Do you really believe that going to school is brainwashing. One of my most profitable businesses, (which we operate internationally) was primarily funded by my best friend who went to school and got “brainwashed’ for 14 years and is now a successful facial surgeon.
    Boy am I glad he got brainwashed because when our company needed a million dollars to throw into our technology, he happened to have the money in his savings account, and was willing to loan it to the company interest free.

    Once again, stupid comment.

    5. You wrote, “I once owned a regular business, it was tough as all businesses are. Your output is directly related to your input. Same goes for any MLM, if you don’t work at it you will not succeed, simple as that.”

    What kind of a lesson about MLM do you wish to give us here? Do you really think that success in an MLM is determined by your work ethic? Do you understand anything about MLM compensation structures, breakage mechanisms, success ratios, break inserts, binary creep, or even basic MLM law and legislation? Do you know if a unilevel has breakage in its plan? Do you know and understand what a cycling matrix is? A single line forced matrix? How about the term internal consumption? You come on here as the ‘business’ expert, I am interested to know just exactly what you do know about the industry why you think you can say that success is ‘simple as that’.

    Once again stupid comment.

    6. My last comment for now, You wrote, ” You can all do the same, or you can post back and forth and make yourselves feel better and justify your own failures by blaming others.”

    I am not trying to justify any failure because I am actually quite successful in my current endeavors. To know why I am here posting, please refer to items 1-5 in my introduction here. Once again stupid comment.

  73. Finally permalink
    January 13, 2012 6:35 pm

    “Working for someone else is not an option for me” says so and so….I doubt he owns a business because all business owner’s work for someone, their clients/people that pay them. In reality there is no such thing as working for yourself. He speaks of social brainwashing????? If not for jobs he would have nothing, get medical attention, eat or even have a computer to type on. To use his word, dribble, his is meaningless and he is obviously over impressed with himself. A quality he shares with our former team mates. I do not recall ever hearing anything that even sounds like a victim on here. I know plenty of people that followed his “social brainwashing” and could probably buy him as a pet or pool boy or something………..ah well the beauty of input………he did not just come across this site he is on here because he has something to do with team, period. Nice try though So and so. But Brent and Vogel addressed you extremely well, so please impress all of us victims with your team rebuttal………

  74. Speak Your Truth permalink
    January 14, 2012 8:34 am

    Is keyboard kowboy and so and so the same person?

    It becomes clear, the defenders are notorious for when they get asked the tough questions and then elude them and have zero rebuttals, and laughable comebacks…it just gives Amthrax site, and the truth of all our experiences, more validity.

    Perhaps the DSA, FTC, DOJ etc.. Should read this site to collect the ‘data’, then they would see just how the industry really flies (not that they don’t already know) and why people see the ‘DSA Code of Ethics’, as nothing more than lip service. We all know the recruiting/internal consumption multi-level marketers..the majority.. Operate unethically, and some illegally. They aren’t in the same realm or come from the same planet as the true direct selling companies but try and call them one and the same. Another deceptive tactic. The way these scammers operate, is the ‘rule’ rather than the exception. Ever wonder why they all say the same things, regardless of what company they come from? Thank the undue influencers…The ‘training’ companies for that.

    There is enough ‘preponderance of evidence’ on here, JS/LM site, and many others, to take action against the scammers in question. The new prospects (who repeat and share exactly what is told to them that proves violation and we all know information is fed from top to bottom and the ‘defenders’ comments, whom violate those ‘Ethics.’ It is clearly evident from the facts that Orrin & Co. and many others in the industry are incapable of policing themselves…But then we all knew that and they do too.

    But Why hold these villians to the law and eithc’s if they don’t have to; you know ‘clean up the industry’ they all agree needs to be done and that would be the Right thing to do, wouldn’t it? In their minds…Why ‘fix what isn’t broken (money blinds). They can’t hold these criminals to the law and ‘Ethics’? Geez why try and do the impossible, that would be like ‘herding cats.’

    These companies allow the ‘training’ companies and their ‘master distributors’ whom are competitors of themselves, to poison the true direct sellers, ruin the reputations of the industry and violate every Ethic and law there is; even after they have became aware of it!

    Do they expect it to prosper and flourish?… Not too bright. You would think… The owners and ‘promoters’ of the true direct sellers and companies would be screaming at the top of their lungs to the DSA and FTC… to get the scammers out of the industry(they know who they) and way louder than those who are on here and around the world. That is if they truly cared about their reputation, eithics and their business. If I owned a legitimate company that is what I would do..create the pressure… Doesn’t seem like ‘rocket science’ to me.

    It is much easier and way more profitable, to just collect the Billions the industry rakes in off the unsuspecting, deceived hard working people, and allow them to spread their message of (false) ‘hope’ with every lie and propaganda they can conjure up! Their Moto must be; “Let’s Don’t Do anything, and Say We did.”

    It kills me that Orrin and partners in crime have continued to get away with hurting others by lying, stealing, cheating, deceiving, making illegal income and product claims. Just continue… business as usual, but then we also know all good (bad) things must come to an end. 🙂

    With people like Amthrax, JS/LM, Vogel, Brent, Mike, all of you, more coming, and many more, intelligent people’s websites and their efforts, whom some have been fighting this battle for decades,aren’t quitters and will cause the great changes and those people cannot be stopped.

    Great comments Vogel & Brent, I love this blog…I believe the momentum is building and the truth is like a virus. It is inevitable then, and is like a pressure cooker ready to blow the top off! I love seeing those who really care not give up about doing the right thing to cause great change. I am with Brent on the ‘5 reasons’… bet we could come up with ’67 reasons’..LOL Change will be forced, more truth and facts are being uncovered almost daily thanks to the researchers; Change comes from within or without…but it comes!

    Eventually, the right powers will have to do the right thing, which will cause a precedence. Orrin won’t get away with it forever and it’s inevitable they will make a fatal mistake and/or there won’t be anyone left to scam because..The Truth + the internet… will force it… and in the end…the truth prevails! 🙂 I feel better now…thanks for all you do!

  75. January 14, 2012 9:46 am

    @Speak and all – so and so and Keyboard Kowboy! posted from the same IP address with the same email address. It’s probably the same person.

    I do ask those who comment on the site that if you use anonymous handle, use it consistently. Don’t change your handle all the time or you’ll be called out on it. It doesn’t help the community when there are people posing as multiple people here.

  76. Speak Your Truth permalink
    January 14, 2012 10:09 am

    Amthrax. I thought it to be obvious but thanks so much, I appreciate you. 🙂

  77. switch permalink
    January 15, 2012 7:02 am

    Ahhh HA!, keyboard kowboy, so and so or whatever the hell your name is….. You’d fit in well with Team of Destiny, Team, or Team Mona Vie,….oh wait, now it’s called Team Life….

    You’ve been caught red-handed just like Team LIEf has been.

    And just so you know you’re not worth a single ounce of Vogel’s time or anyone else’s who post the truth on this site.

  78. Speak Your Truth permalink
    January 15, 2012 7:55 am


    How many is that now? Enough times to see it has become common practice, but I can’t see what the point is for doing this? And he said he didn’t even know what the Team is…hahaha. When will they ever Learn their slimy tactics can’t work here.

  79. switch permalink
    January 15, 2012 7:58 pm

    I lost count a loooong time ago, Speak. Honestly, they’re a dime a dozen now. Anything to try and make the LIEf regime look sparkly. I think the point is that, they just want to derail the whole thread by trying to shove some bullshit read down our throat and costs everyone money. Not gonna happen. I read my own information AND books. What they don’t understand is that, they have no clue who the hell they’re talking to but just love to fly off the handle if they hear anything negative….or shall we say the truth?

    I’m wondering if they’ve read every single other thread on Amthrax? Doubtful.

    If you’ve read from the beginning (which I have), there’s sound proof O and the clan are nothing but pathological liers who love to place the blame anywhere but in their shoes.

    You stated it PERFECTLY awhile back when you said, Team LIEf has lost their privileges so long ago with trust.

    So true.

  80. Shawn permalink
    January 19, 2012 2:24 pm

    just started life and i’m paying as little as possible. no where near 500 a month. if there so bad then why do the have an A+ by the BBB? and why did i already get a check for more then i payed to keep it running?

  81. Shawn permalink
    January 19, 2012 2:27 pm

    P.S. I’m only 21. As long as u remember it’s ur business, u decide what u need and what u don’t need to spend ur money on to keep it going. Oh I’m also on a very fixed budget.

  82. TruthSeeker permalink
    January 19, 2012 4:22 pm


    Since you asked a couple of questions, I will do the same.

    Do you know how companies get rated with the BBB? What exactly does that mean?

    Since you are profitable, open your back office, and let us honestly know how many people you have in your group that are not profitable, and what percentage of your group is that? Also figure out what your group will have to do now in order to become profitable themselves. Will you do those two or three things and report back? Use some critical thinking here, don’t let rhetoric guide your thought process.

    You are wise for setting your budget and sticking to it, I have to respect you for that.

  83. Finally permalink
    January 19, 2012 7:40 pm

    Poor, poor Shawn, get back to us in a year. Show us your income from Lief VS your output. it really is simple math. You are young and ignorant to what you are in for…….so if you make it year let us know how you do. Oh and read your paperwork for life, the income stops soon unless you buy 600 dollars in extra tools……….

  84. das permalink
    January 19, 2012 7:44 pm

    Shawn, you asked “why did i already get a check for more then i payed to keep it running?”

    How long have you been in this business and how many people are under you? What do you mean by “payed to keep it running”? We might be able to answer your question if you provide more information.

  85. No Team For Me permalink
    January 19, 2012 9:19 pm

    Shawn (aka anonymous PC member) – Exactly how much was your check? How many personals have you put in? How many in your total group?

    Are you following the system by being on all levels of monthly system levels, purchasing the Getting Started Pack, Additional Info Pack, Power Player Pack, Culture Pack, etc? Surely if you’ve sponsored so many personals you must have purchased several extra First Night Packs and Additional Information Pack to make sure you are following the system? I’m assuming you’ve also purchased your ticket to the major – along with hotel & travel. and you no doubt went to the monthly seminar last month and have your ticket to the one for next month? and don’t forget your registration? Oh, and the weekly open meetings? Also, as a good future leader, surely you’ve got your Top 50 Pack? Not to mention several extra CD’s of your favorite speakers.

    So, since you’ve already made your money back in one month…….pretty impressive to have only been in one month and already received a check for around $2,000. We are all proud of you. At that pace, you’re sure to be a RT within your 1st 4-6 months and a PC within your 1st 6-12 months and you will be the 1st person to do that in the history of TEAM out of over 100,000 people who have been run through the system. That is very impressive. Keep us up to date. We’ll all be cheering you on.

  86. Speak Your Truth permalink
    January 19, 2012 11:43 pm

    This has got to be the most destructive and saddest. They are preying on a whole generation of college age kids. Shawn is a 21 year old just starting out in his life and already sucked into something he hasn’t a clue what a farce it really is. The real truth behind it all and how 99% will never make it to that pipe dream of the ‘PC’.. constant cash flow and his ‘dreams’ he will never get through it. He is already deceived into thinking it is his ‘own business’…how sad.

    These scumbags are preying on the younger and younger. They have resorted to either sponsoring thugsters who threaten people who tell the truth about them..haha or such naive youngsters because they prey on people’s deepest desires. These youngsters would be the easiest but brokest of their prey..they convince with the best thought reform/brainwashing and grap them at an emotional level because of the ‘what if’… pipe dream.

    These youngsters have very little income to begin with or worse trying to go to college that they will be convinced into believing that college is nothing but a worthless education to make you go broke and give you nothing but a J.O.B for 45 years to end up boke, disabled, or dead.

    This makes me sick they are going after kids who will easily ignore their budgets for false hope and the chances of them understanding the questions all of you have asked on Profit and loss or seeing realistic business principles is slim to none because they will get caught up in the ‘dream’..of they can have it all. Many of all ages, including all of us on here were there and know their mind control and bs captures all ages but these youngsters will fall quicker even yet.

    They entice these young ‘dreamers’ with undue influence and pressure of; the fast cars, and you can be a ‘millionarie’ lifestyles in just a few short years… “2-5 yrs”, right Shawn? That is waay enticing for a 21 year old. They play on the deepest desires of everyone and these youngsters to capture their ‘ONLY’ $50 dollars per month (lies) to get a much bigger payout?..Not going to happen..Shawn.

    We all know that is a lie (either intentionally or untentionally from Shawn) as “No team for me” and “Finally” have pointed out nicely some of the ‘real costs’…

    So Shawn, I really pity you, sincerely…you are a young man that has no idea how unsustainble…let us know at your 1 yr anniversate date how many in your group quit and you have to replace. I hope you will ask and find the answers to the questions that those on here are asking you..please open your eyes and critically think through them logically from a business standpoint, find someone who you know outside of team that knows how to run a ‘real business’ and ask them for advice; to help you understand.

    Read the Team Lief (Nazi) Policy & Procedures (that should wake you up) you haven’t read them have you Shawn? Read them before you spend another dime of your hard earned money! They OWN you, including what your ‘family says about your business’…No negative or embarrasment for your family or they can take your business income…You own nothing!

    You do NOT own your own buisness, Orrin does! You work for him and worse you are PAYING HIM to be in His business to make Him and the PC ( all 7 of them) rich! And you will end up in the hole.

    There is a 96% (you) will never even make enough for your autoship and a way worse percetage you will ever go PC, Did you know this, Shawn?

    Did you know that Orrin, Chris, Tim, George, Lewis have been the only PC out of probably hundred thousand for years? The lastest PC- Hawkins were ‘given’ teams to go PC, Claude (PC) wasn’t even in Orrin’s LOS, he came from Amway, learn the ‘history’. Did you know this Shawn? Did you know Orrin and the ‘system’ came from Amway?

    Face the facts, (see the comp plan analysis on here) of your odds of ever ‘making it’…open your eye’s at the major and see out of the entire room…then count how many PC. How’s it looking for you, Shawn? I hope you figure it out soon…not for anyone’s sake but your own!

  87. Speak Your Truth permalink
    January 19, 2012 11:45 pm

    Meant to say 99% won’t make a profit and the odds of ever getting to PC would are slim…more like none…unless you are ‘chosen’ and given the rank.

  88. aurora permalink
    January 20, 2012 2:49 am

    This commenter requested that her comments be removed from this site.

  89. free to live again! permalink
    January 20, 2012 8:00 am

    @ Finally or Amthrax,
    Finally wrote “the income stops soon unless you buy 600 dollars in extra tools……….” I’m just wondering is this per month or a one time thing? Can you point to where you got this information? It is very interesting!

  90. January 20, 2012 9:25 am

    I again don’t know much about TEAM. WIsh I did, so I won’t say either way if they’re good or bad.
    I really had no intention of posting back on here. I could also quite easily added my own rebuttal against many of the posts towards me, but I’m not going to.

    I am in Amway and I’m part of World Wide just so you all know that I really am not in or for these companies you slam. And yes I am Keyboard Kowboy, I thought of that name as I read your comments against me. So many people are really tough when they’re anonymous hiding behind they’re keyboard. (oooooh sneaky of me as I propagate the LIFE message on this blog!!!)

    @Shawn – Since I know nothing about TEAM or LIFE I cannot tell you to do it or not. But what I can say is; do you due diligence, look into all the fine print and make the decision that is best for you. Most of all what ever the outcome is, learn from it and apply it to your next venture and do not give up.
    Also never compare yourself against the 95% that won’t make it, compare yourself against the 5% (and work to achieve that and do what the 95% aren’t, and what the 5% are).
    Owning a business in any industry is tough work. The lessons in most MLM’s can be applied to traditional business.
    Also, leave this blog and stop reading these things. If you want to get a good opinion, find someone who is not biased on either side. Most posters here are biased and as you can see very negative (not saying that there hasn’t been some nuggets of useful info from these people)

    Also I’m flaborgasted at the ignorance posted after Shawn.

    “And, please, Shawn, go back to English class. Wow, spelling with single letters is such a give-a-way.
    It is really sad that the only people MLMs can scam anymore are the very young and uneducated – and I’m not talking school degrees. They are meaningless until they are put to work for decades.
    Having a job and working it for 40-50 years while you raise a family and put money away for retirement is noble. It is ethical and moral no matter how MLMs insult it.
    The Bible says if a man shall not work, he shall not eat. Working for an honest dollar makes men out of little boys.”

    Comments like this are ignorant and biased and not even useful in persuading anyone to believe the posters of this site and you simply sound like the people you preach against.
    While working hard is noble, you can work hard at other things. Being an entrepreneur is a very noble thing too. A business owner alone will work way harder that anyone at a job, guaranteed. (they have to)

    Like I said Shawn what ever happens learn from this and apply it to anything going forward and don’t bother reading the crap people post here. (or do so with a grain of salt and only take what appears useful in your life)

    Good luck Shawn in what ever you choose. Also read the Slight Edge, it’s not pro MLM, it’s pro positive action that can be useful in a career, business, sports, anything!

    [Editor’s note: corrected phrase to correct intention]

  91. January 20, 2012 11:18 am

    @so and so – tell us your thoughts about Dean Kosage and Brad Wolgamott. I’m curious to know how they are perceived today inside of WWDB.

  92. January 20, 2012 11:23 am

    I haven’t been in the biz long enough to hear to much about others. I’m in Dan Yuen’s downline and he’s pretty active in WWDB. Pretty active in our group too.

  93. Brent Hansen permalink
    January 20, 2012 1:08 pm

    so and so,

    I am glad your back, your last lengthy post here is by far your best thus far. Just to help my own clarity and understanding however, I would like to ask a couple of questions about the things your wrote.

    First off you wrote this, “So many people are really tough when they’re anonymous hiding behind they’re keyboard.” Just so you know, my name above is my real name so I am not anonymous, nor am I hiding anywhere. Interesting you say this however since you are blogging as “so and so”. What is your real name?

    You then directed your comments towards @Shawn when you wrote, “Since I know nothing about TEAM or LIFE I cannot tell you to do it or not. But what I can say is; do you due diligence, look into all the fine print and make the decision that is best for you. Most of all what ever the outcome is, learn from it and apply it to your next venture and do not give up.”

    I believe the advice you gave here is very sound, not only for Shawn, but for myself as well, thank you. I do have a question regarding the next part when you wrote,
    “Also never compare yourself against the 95% that won’t make it, compare yourself against the 5% (and work to achieve that and do what the 95% aren’t, and what the 5% are).”
    What exactly is the 95% and 5% you are referring to here? I have an idea but would like to clarify so that I know exactly what you are referring to.

    Are you inferring that 5% are successful and 95% are not successful? What paramaters dictate your equation? Or are possibly assuming that 5% own their own business and perhaps 95% do not? Where exactly did you get this information from, and what exactly do you mean.

    You see, if you are insinuating that only those who reside on he 5% of your equation are qualified to give advice or expert opinion I want you to know and understand that within this blog, there are many who are in your proverbial 5%. There are business owners who own real businesses who are posting within this blog. There are people who are posting on this blog who are in the top 5% of all income earners in America.

    While I will agree with you that some of the comments directed at Shawn were uncalled for, he should have known what was coming by stating his unfounded opinion on this blog.

    You then wrote something that I totally agree with you wrote,
    “While working hard is noble, you can work hard at other things. Being an entrepreneur is a very noble thing too. A business owner alone will work way harder that anyone at a job, guaranteed.” You really are correct in saying this, being and entrepreneur is really hard, and being a successful one is even harder.

    Let me offer you one piece of advice since I was with A/Q for 12 plus years and lost thousands upon thousands of dollars, you really need to understand what owning a real business means. The A/Q model is not a real business. One of the equations used to determine a real business is knowing whether or not that business is providing you with a Living Wage. If you haven’t heard that term here is a simple definition from Wikipedia,

    “In public policy, a living wage is the minimum hourly income necessary for a worker to meet basic needs (for an extended period of time or for a lifetime). These needs include shelter (housing) and other incidentals such as clothing and nutrition.”

    According to the SBA and other sources somewhere between 25-30% of those who start a business can be successful enough to earn a Living Wage. This is a statistic which you can find in many different publications both on and offline. However, if you compare and contrast that to a so called “MLM Business” model less than 1% can even break even let alone earn a Living Wage.

    In traditional business you are the one to make it happen, as you indicated in your previous post. You are totally correct in your opinion and your advice. In an MLM model you are subject to the mathematics written into the MLM compensation plan. If you succeed or fail in traditional business you become a statistic based on your personal ability to weather the storms. If you succeed or fail in an MLM model is determined not only by your personal efforts or abilities by more so by a mere mathematical equation.

    There are actually people who are in your proverbial 5% who have spent several decades gathering data about the mathematics of MLM compensation plans. Check this out for example. Are your odds of earning better in MLM or gambling in Vegas? Here is what a man smarter than I has discovered after many years of research.

    The odds of winning from a single spin of the wheel in a game of roulette in Las Vegas is:

    286 times as great as the odds of profiting from enrolling in Amway (Quixtar)
    143 times as great as the odds of profiting from enrolling in Nikken
    48 times as great as the odds of profiting from enrolling in Nu Skin
    36 times as great as the odds of profiting from enrolling in Arbonne
    29 times as great as the odds of profiting from enrolling in Reliv
    22 times as great as the odds of profiting from enrolling in Melaleuca

    In essence, you have a 286 times greater chance of earning a single penny by going to Vegas than being in business with WWDB, do you like those odds? I don’t, not when my odds are 25-30% in traditional business.

    So, so and so, what does this mean to you and I? It means that we have a far greater chance of earning by staying away from any of these models than any possible chance of earning by being involved.

    So now I will extend the same advice to you that you suggested to Shawn, and I quote you, “do you due diligence, look into all the fine print and make the decision that is best for you.”

    I am here to help you in whatever capacity I may, here on this blog or in private. Thanks

  94. January 24, 2012 5:07 pm

    The Anti-Amthrax blogger attempts to debunk my debunking post on Arthur Carmazzi today:

  95. Finally permalink
    January 24, 2012 5:40 pm

    It is funny that the the anti Amthrax blogger says that Orrin and Team have a large enough team to get them on the best seller lists. Hmmmmmm, let’s see, less than 8,000 people at a major and they claim they have a team big enough to get them to best seller. How about they orchestrate teams and individuals to buy as many as 10 copies of their book each. Now is that legitimate by anyone’s standard? The guy is really sad. If the blogger reads this please post for us the numbers of people outside of team that bought the book………that will tell the story. As far as giving the proceeds to charity………….hey can you pat yourselves on the back a little more? Since when does a Christian constantly announce his “good deeds”. I mean if they are true Christians no one would have needed to hear that. Their actions are shameful and pathetic.

    One more thing about the bloggers post. If the true measure of a leader is his followers than Hitler blows them away………Is that what they are really saying?? The truth is they have way more descenders than followers, wayyyyy more. They claim to be going to a million, more like they are going through a million. ZERO net gain in numbers in their community since 2007……..Not true? Prove us wrong….again that is ZERO net gain in numbers from the last major before the break from Q in 2007. Go ahead Orrrin post the numbers from that last major at the Breslin center vs you last Major. it would be interesting and ohhhhhh sooooo telling.

  96. Mike Collins permalink
    January 24, 2012 6:02 pm

    In response to the latest anti amthrax post: Dear Anti-Amthrax blogger ( or better yet orrin or chris) you guys are such a freakin rookies when it comes to “debunking” the truth. Stick to what you’re good at: Lying and deceiving people to fleece them out of their hard earned money with the false promise of financial freedom. JACKASSES!

  97. freedomhaha permalink
    January 24, 2012 6:20 pm

    Dear Anti-Amthrax blog,

    First off you are hilarious! The people on this site fight for justice, and you will never have that. A group of people inspired by a good cause (not to keep perpetuating greed) will always fight longer and harder for the truth. Second of all- gets your facts right please.

    God Bless. Also, please join me and pray for people still in TEAM. For the most part (not PC) they are good people trying to do the right thing. Some are even working as false prophets for the kingdom of God.

  98. January 25, 2012 4:45 am

    I love how the blogger tries to make Orrin and Chris legitimate “Leaders” because (and I quote) “thousands of people left Amway/Quixtar to follow them on an unknown path at a time in August 2007 when they stood for what was morally right against A/Q.”.

    Hello….McFly….a lot of the top posters on this site were with Team during this time!!! The reason a lot of them are not still with you, is because of the moral failures during this time! Really? That’s your best response? Amthrax’s original post on this was a MONTH AGO…. and that’s the response it took a month to come up with? Yikes….Team is in more trouble than I thought…..

  99. TruthSeeker permalink
    January 25, 2012 5:28 am

    @Finally, funny stuff, you hit the nail right on the head when you said,

    “They claim to be going to a million, more like they are going through a million. ZERO net gain in numbers in their community since 2007……..”.

    That is exactly right, and I believe they have probably already surpassed that number, it would not be unreasonable to believe that they have already cycled a million people through the team farce. I think that each one of the 8,000 in attendance at the last major could easily represent at least 100 or more that have walked away.

    Team had one more chance to do it right with the opportunity to launch a new compensation plan that would actually reward people. However from what I read and understand here in the reports, they screwed that up to.

    Their TOP-HEAVY compensation structure pretty much exposes the desires of their hearts. The Life plan is the horrible Amway plan on steroids. Not only is over 40% of the regular compensation dollars held for less than 1%, but now the OTCA part of the plan even pushes more money to less than 1%.

    If your part of Life, why not just cut them a check in January for $2,000 – $3,000 and stay home with the kids. You may be able to create a profitable business, but with well over 95% of your team always operating at loss you will never be able to create an ongoing, regenerating income.

    Thanks to Finally, we now have a new Life slogan “Going thru a million!!”

  100. I QUIT (and glad I did) permalink
    January 25, 2012 6:34 am

    I LOVE IT!!!! Going thru a million. That is too good!! And so accurate

  101. No Team For Me permalink
    January 25, 2012 6:58 am

    When I checked that blog it was closed to comments. Unless this wasa technical error, are they afraid of people commenting and speaking the truth?

    If the blogger – Orrin, Chris or Tim 🙂 – are the ones who blocked the comments….how hypocritical. They stand on stage and preach about truth. Yet they don’t want their own sheep hearing the real truth.

    The reason everyone followed them out of Quixtar was because everyone had been lied to about what had really been going on. Orrin was about to loose his accredidation as a certified tool/system provider because of his numerous violations. Amway/Quixtar had finally begun the process of attempting to clean up the tool mess.

    Anyone who was dealing with the company directly (ie Diamonds, etc) knew that the company would be shutting down certain leaders if they did not at least attempt to work with the company. and everybody knew Orrin & crew were the worst violaters of the policies.

    They would always take what the company said and spin it when talking to TEAM members who were kept in the dark. So when the time came to decide who to go with – they did not have all the facts to make a decision. They just followed what they had been told. Much like the Nazi’s followed orders at the concentration camps after their leader (Hitler) indoctrinated them.

    The following are my based on my personal opinions and experiences.

  102. I QUIT (and glad I did) permalink
    January 25, 2012 9:27 am

    Absolutely Believed! We were operating the exact same way. I believe we were the fastest growing. I remember Kate saying similar things. Amway looked the other way because we still drove LOTS of volume thru them via XS energy etc. They changed their tune when they finally realized just how much money they were missing out on with the Team tool system. They wanted their cut. Which of course would have slashed the guru’s profits and that was just unacceptable! Amway finally called em on the carpet so they had two options, give up profits or move on! We all knew this was one of if not the biggest reason for bailing out of Amway. Then the gurus just needed to spew some other reasons that sounded good and/or were other MINOR contributing factors. And we all followed because we thought our best interests were gonna be addressed! OOPS. Bad move.

  103. I QUIT (and glad I did) permalink
    January 25, 2012 10:01 am

    Teamers will need to maintain records of their customer transactions, in other words non-downline sales to avoid internal consumption designation. I’m sure people are beating down the doors trying to get to all that information.

  104. Finally permalink
    January 25, 2012 6:13 pm

    We blindly followed Orrin??????? Really, how many meetings were done to get everyone to stick????? I know for a fact they organized them………L I A R S

  105. Speak Your Truth permalink
    January 25, 2012 8:03 pm

    **Here is some breaking news from the FTC website and the crackdown of the ‘fake News pages” that some scammers are using to hoodwink consumers and promote the “acai berries”…for weight loss. I know it is totally on topic but to me all these scammers are the same and come from the same scammy school of thought and tactics.

    The consumers ARE sick and tired of these greedy scammers… getting away with it! The top 7 PC Lie..fers and probably a few others… will inevitably reap the; ‘Law of the Harvest’. It is just a matter of time…can’t lie and deceive forever for your personal greedy gain. The FTC; seems to be to in the right neighborhood…and Oh so close, to some real scammers. they just need to continue to follow the trail which will eventually end up with a jackpot. Scammers all lead to back to the same place they belong.

    “Acai Berry EXPOSED – Health Reporter Discovers the Shocking Truth,” driving traffic to the fake news sites and ultimately to the sites where merchants sell the products. The FTC has received numerous complaints from consumers who paid between $70 and $100 for weight-loss products after having been deceived by fake news sites.”

    “Reporters or commentators pictured on the sites are fictional and have not conducted the tests or experienced the results described in the reports, the FTC alleges. The “responses” and “comments” following the reports are simply additional advertising content, not independent statements from ordinary consumers. The defendants receive commissions when consumers buy the products or sign up for “free trials” on the product-selling sites – but they fail to adequately disclose their lack of objectivity and their financial incentive to get consumers to buy the products. According to the FTC, the defendants collectively have paid more than $10 million to advertise their fake news sites, and have likely received well in excess of that amount in ill-gotten commissions.”

    Did you catch that Mr. Anonymous, Anti-Amthrax blogger? Will have to address your weak pile of bs.. later.

  106. Speak Your Truth permalink
    January 25, 2012 8:33 pm

    This article specifically… is not really breaking news because it was released April of 2011, but it was on in the news today so I am not sure I got the right article or if there is more of the same scammers they are investigating. I will have to do some more searching to see if I can find a more current article.

  107. Speak Your Truth permalink
    January 25, 2012 8:45 pm

    Here is the current information dated today on this subject, I couldn’t find it yet on the FTC site but it is all revelant.

    This is a good sign the FTC is taking action…and we the consumer need them to keep taking action and do their job…and we all know they have they definitely have J.O.B security, we just need to help them…hahaha!

  108. switch permalink
    January 26, 2012 7:37 am

    Great find Speak!!!

    Kind of makes ya wonder on the split with team and M.V. doesn’t it? April of 2011 and the whole new launch of LIEf…..

    The pattern is pretty much spelled out for everyone.

  109. No Team For Me permalink
    January 26, 2012 9:00 am

    Switch – I think the reason for the split with MV was because Orrin & Chris were privy to information that MV was going to be taking over the tool business and did not want to give up their true source of income. Just like they left Quixtar when Quixtar was going to take away their accreditation for tools.

    (the above are based on my personal opinions and experiences)

  110. February 10, 2012 4:46 pm

    Anti-Amthrax has a new post in which he comments on my Orrin Woodward’s Day Off and the MonaVie Cruise For Gold promotion posts.

  111. The Truth hurts permalink
    February 27, 2012 8:37 pm

    Interesting about having to blog to try to keep the new recruits, or, should I say, money train, tool buyers coming in the doors.

    What was that quote about time proving one right..was it a man of integrity expects to be believed, and if he isn’t, he lets time prove him right? Please, if I don’t have this right, I am asking you to correct me! After all, I paid for years to listen to the CD’s and tapes, so I should have this drivel right by now..but maybe not, as I was able to get out and lose my programing! Maybe I should say brainwashing..I remember how the uplines at events would make a joke of it from stage..”you need to take your brain out and have it washed” chilling, just chilling.

    If it wasn’t for Eric Scheibeler, I don’t think I’d be where I am today..which is a happy fulfilled person, fully understanding how absolutely BLESSED I AM that I am not involved with con men and charlatans any longer! And while I am on a roll tonight, Pastor Dickie has a true servant heart, .a man of integrity, he saw over time, and he left.

    The bottom line is..listen up recruits..are you better off than you were when you joined? Now, really think this one through..lets go through your list of programmed answers;

    My marriage is better because I listened to the tapes. Really? How is the fighting going when you can’t pay the bills? Have you argued because the husband hasn’t shown enough plans lately? Can you make your own decisions, or are you feeling like you should ask your Upline (who just may be bankrupt for all you know!) what you should do next.

    This has changed my Life! You betcha it has! What happens if you don’t hit that goal? Go power player (pw) and it will be right around the corner, your business is getting ready to EXPLODE SOON! The explosion will be your wallet, and then your heart when you realize you were building a castle on bad sand. How long will you be able to look people in the eye and tell them you are making money when you know you aren’t? What does that do to your soul in the long run?

    These people love me, they are like Family. Yep, the Adams Family. Would anyone who loves you not want you to be at your childrens birthday party, or graduation? How about your parents anniversary party? What big event will be so important at the seminar you “just can’t miss” that makes you not be at your child’s play that night? PRIORITIES! The real reason your butt needs to be at the seminar is money, your money in uplines pockets. Another reason is that you need to be around all the love bombing, the CDs, the ASSociation, to keep you in a mind haze.

    A blog to combat the truth on this site.Hmm. Well, we will let time prove us right (hasn’t it already?) and in the mean time, we will be here for every single person who comes to this wonderful site for help. Yes, anti amthrax, we will be here to pick up the people your type have discarded, the ones that supposedly didn’t work hard enough. We will help them to understand they are not losers, and life will be good again for them soon. We will give them a helping hand, kind words, and a mental shoulder to lean on, and we will never call them a quitter or a loser. And anti amthrax, listen up, we do this for free, because we care about all of your discards, we know just how it feels when you dump people that have no more money to spend.

    Steadfast, meet Determined.

  112. Freedomhaha permalink
    February 27, 2012 8:40 pm

    Truth- One of the best posts I have heard on this site, bravo!

  113. Speak Your Truth permalink
    February 27, 2012 8:54 pm

    The Truth Hurts~

    That was incredible and I almost fell of my chair laughing (seriously) on:

    “These people love me, they are like Family. Yep, the Adams Family.” and then again “Steadfast, meet Determined.”

    Hilarious and a great post! 🙂

  114. The Truth hurts permalink
    February 27, 2012 9:36 pm

    As we all know, times are tough economically, and many people are hurting financially. It saddens me to remember what my Upline used to tell me..”when the economy goes down, our business goes up, because people are hungry and looking”. Translate this to a great opportunity to take advantage of someone who is casting about for something to help them financially. In an effort to help people/recruits see truth, lets answer some more programmed questions.

    Fake it till you make it. How many times did I hear that? So many I can’t count! Recruits, listen up! Bernie Madoff faked it, you don’t need to fake it if a business is legit. Fake and Liar are both four letter words.

    My Upline didn’t pay any taxes until he went Saphire. Really? Recruits, if they tell you this, think it through. United States Citizens pay taxes on PROFIT. Why didn’t your Upline make a profit until Saphire? The plan clearly shows profit at Platinum, if not before. Think.

    I was once goofy enough to ask my Upline why I should buy books through the system, when I could get them at amazon far cheaper. I remember feeling chastened by his stern reply, telling me I was going to hurt the whole team by doing that! Actually, I was going to hurt tool profits, but I was so smoke fogged by the system I couldn’t see this clearly at the time.

    Thinking about smoke fogs..Remember, they can take the honey right out of a bee hive by lulling them with smoke..wake up and use your analytical thinking skills. Question things, and if someone tells you not to question, run. Good business is always accompanied by full disclosure, or it is not good business.

    If an upline tells you if “THE DREAM IS BIG ENOUGH THE FACTS DON’T MATTER” they are plainly talking off the charts wacko. The facts always matter! That is incendiary talk, designed to get you to go for the brass ring!

    I remember the first time I didn’t go to the Open Meeting after I quit. I am proud to be a quitter of this false trojan horse! There I was, surrounded by family, playing a game with the kids after a great dinner..How, I wondered, could I have ever thought it was better to spend the night at an open, where watching paint dry would have been more entertaining. I thought about all the times I had sponsored people with hope in their eyes, knowing in my heart they had little chance of truly making a long term income. I have my self respect back, and I have my family, I have my life back. I am in a good place now, and happy to be able to help others along the same journey.

    How sad but probably typical that anti amthrax can not seem to understand our kindness and concern for others on this site. Why does anti amthrax not answer the posts about big pins having lost everything? Are we to beleive they are losers? Not a chance, because we know they had what it really takes..courage to walk away, and integrity to try to help others.

    The above is based upon my personal experiences and opinions.

  115. MustHaveBeenTerribleMother permalink
    August 18, 2012 1:54 pm


    What he (Brady, too) does to get ahead he terms “economic warfare.” based upon being a warfare history buff .

    This is how he and Brady make an analogy to get what they want,


    First: you DIVIDE and conquer your territory–you build depth.


    Second: fortify the territory through education and LIFE Skills—


    Third: you must domesticate the territory by increasing volume.within the community—


    Orrin claims: most of the time, but not always: this is a pretty easy, sure-fired way to do it.

    Note: To illustrate: he produced troop movement/infiltration/stratgegy map of WWII fighting.
    Um, do I hear trains in the distance as the Nazi soldier gets ready to load me onto the Auschwitz train? Yeah, I remember parts of WWII, too.

    I think this despicable pair ought to, instead, read Viktor Frankl’s “Man’s Search for Meaning.”

  116. MustHaveBeenTerribleMother permalink
    August 18, 2012 2:28 pm


    Cliff Notes on Viktor Frankl’s book:

    “One of the most widely read Holocaust books is Viktor Frankl’s Man’s Search for Meaning. Frankl is a Holocaust survivor who outlines his experiences in concentration camp. His approach to telling his story involves explaining the psychological stages that each prisoner goes through. He explores not only the stages during imprisonment, but also those that occur upon release. Frankl recalls that many prisoners, including himself, would hold onto visions of their loved ones to help get them through. Part of recovering and rejoining the world outside of camp was being reunited with family members and friends. For Frankl, one of the most difficult parts of the process was overcoming the blow of not having anyone left upon his release. The memory of his wife’s face kept him going during the trials of camp, but she was not there to help him heal.”

  117. MustHaveBeenTerribleMother permalink
    August 18, 2012 6:06 pm


    “Sunday, May 20, 2012
    Orrin Woodward, Amway/Quixtar, & Amthrax Scam
    Orrin Woodward, Amway/Quixtar Drones and Amthrax Lies

    Dan Hawkins , Claude Hamilton, Tim Marks, and Eric Blomdahl have exposed the anonymous Amway drones distortions, fallacies, and outright lies by shining light upon the facts and comparing them to the drones dishonest drivel. Why would an an alleged former Amway/Amthrax failure attack a business he admits to never being a part of unless some ulterior motive lies behind it?”

  118. August 20, 2012 1:08 pm

    @MustHaveBeenTerribleMother – I’m pretty clear about why I’m blogging about TEAM/LIFE in my About statement on this site. My motive is to shed light on what I think is a very bad business opportunity, one that can ultimately doed more harm than good for the majority of the participants.

  119. January 20, 2013 5:25 pm

    Seriously Amthrax…..Don’t you have anything better to do???? I have never seen such vengeful attacks.
    The Bible says; “Vengeance is mine says the Lord”
    Give it a rest, and let God handle it, if there is really something to handle.

  120. TruthSeeker permalink
    January 20, 2013 6:31 pm

    Well Miss Kali Farnell Weber, after reading this statement you wrote, “Awesome Seminar Tonight!! Challenged & Reminded Me this…Know Yourself-Don’t Fool Yourself….you are what you think about, what you read, what you listen to & who you associate with!!”

    I think I better warn you to take your own advice. Or as my friends dad used to say, “If you play with crap, you will get it on your hands.” I promise you, if you engage, you will be hurt.

    We all know you are losing money, and will continue to lose money in Lief. God helps those, who help themselves, and I for one am glad that there are people here who understand and share the truth. Perhaps if you withheld your hasty, and somewhat rhetorical response you could learn a thing or two.

  121. freedomhaha permalink
    January 20, 2013 7:05 pm

    Kali- Should we sit idly by while others lives are impacted negatively as ours were in TEAM? I wish I would have found this site before I handed thousands of dollars over to those cult scam artists called the PC.

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