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Reader Story: Help Roy Talk Some Sense Into His Friend

March 5, 2012

Here’s another reader story from over the weekend. Roy is looking for tips on how to talk some sense into his friend who’s been involved with TEAM for the past several years (starting with MonaVie and now with LIFE).

[Editor’s Note: I have made some slight changes for clarity and easier readability in Roy’s letter below.]

After having read through many of the postings on your site, teamscam and doing a lot of individual research on my own I have decided to contact you – and hopefully others involved – for assistance.

This may get a little long and I apologize but I’ll be as brief as I can…

A friend of mine and his wife have been in Monavie for over 2 years. They approached me about 18 months ago with a “great business opportunity” and since they knew I was a good businessman — I have owned a manufacturing company in the Midwest for 12 years, nothing large, just 14 employees but a legit business with a national market — they thought this would be a perfect fit for me. I put them off for about 6 months until finally asbout a year ago I told them that I wanted absolutely nothing to do with an MLM business — a relative of mine had gotten me into A.L. Williams in the late ’80s so I was very familiar with the principle and knew it was something I would avoid for the rest of my life. There was a couple months of no contact but then things returned to normal between us. You see, he, his wife, my wife and I all graduated from the same high school class. Although we don’t live in the same community we do get together a few times throughout the year.

We wound up getting together at their house in the middle of January. I had hoped to wait a while longer, but we couldn’t work out a later date, as they were going to Columbus, OH for a weekend. We had a great time, played games and talked about the “good old days.” They had been fixing up their home and it was beautiful so we chatted a bit about that too. At the end of the night we were saying our good byes and I told them to have a safe trip to Columbus. They shared a smile and said they were really looking forward to the trip.

In early February, out of the blue I got a call from the husband who asked if he could stop by on the 15th to see my place of business; he was travelling through and had always wanted to see what we do. I agreed. He stopped by, I showed him around and we talked for a while. Then he said he had something in his car that he though I should have. He went out anc came back in with a red-covered cd, “Freedom Shift” or “Freedom Matters,” something like that, by Oliver DeMille. He told me to take a listen and that he would get back to me in a couple of days. So I listened to it…

Wow, as soon as it was done I looked up Oliver DeMille and see that he has a somewhat troubled career and his university has been under some clouds. I then looked up the-life-business.com and things became somewhat clear. I remembered a name from the cd – Orrin – so I did a “life business orrin” search and found a lot more, including your blog site. I also saw that some type of seminar or U-Rah-Rah meeting had taken place in Columbus, OH during the time they were there. I could not believe that these guys were trying to lure me back into an MLM business. After take a couple days to cool down I sent the following message to him via text on 2/18/12 – “Ok. Listened to the cd u offered. Now in fairness I would ask u 2 read this article from forbes magazine – www.forbes.com/forbes/2008/0811/050.html.” The crickets chirped for a few days.

Finally, on the 23rd, I sent this email to them:

I did not send the Forbes article to you to be a personal affront so I hope it wasn’t interpreted to be that. I don’t try to judge anyone, especially on what they chose to do to try to make some extra money (unless it involves drugs or something similarly illegal). I know that when you asked me about Mona Vie (sp) I said that I don’t have any desire whatsoever to be involved with any multi-level marketing deal. I was a little disappointed to learn that this was also. It’s just not for me – at all. What you do is totally up to you and that’s okay by me. To be honest, I’m a little fascinated by what the attraction to it is for you. Anyway, I wasn’t trying to personally offend anyone.”

Later that day I received this response:

“Hello,

I have to apologize for not getting back to you sooner. We are selling the house and I have not payed much attention to anything else. As for being offended, you did not offend me. I have heard it all. The article was very slanted and to tell you the truth it made me chuckle, talk about trying to make a mountain out of a mole hill. If you really want to know who Orrin Woodward is then take a look at his leadership blog and judge him on what he stands for, not from some liberal “journalist” who is trying to save the world. (sidebar: Orrin is the #7 leadership guru in the world and just won the IAB award as the #1 leadership person in business) Orrin speaks out against the media often so it does not surprise me when articles are written about him. I would not expect you to join me in trying to help people with their problems. The cd I gave you was just to give you awareness of what is going on in this country, I certainly did not intend to have you join
anything. Good information is good information. How you decide to help is completely up to you, I just hope you (and others) who are good people decide to do something before it is too late.

As for the business I am in: at least 10 people have a better understanding about finances, 2 marriages have been saved, 1 person is no longer a substance abuser, and that is just what has happened in our business alone. Multiply that by a few thousand and you have a lot people being helped. I have become a better person, my marriage has become stronger, and my relationship with my children is the best it has ever been. I am not being scammed and I am not scamming anyone (like the article said). The information is the best in the world for helping with Faith, Family, Finances, Fitness, Following, Freedom ( which is very important to me), Friends, and Fun. If you ever need any help in any of these, I can refer some great information to you.

If you ever want to talk about what was wrong in the article just let me know. Again I am not offended and look forward to seeing you again. I am interested in what you thought about the cd, I will be coming through again on Wednesday and will stop by and pick the cd up. Thanks.”

So back to the internet, and in about an hour I was sure the IAB was nothing more than another MLM business (which I see you guys have already discerned) selling “insurance” and that the voting is public for the top “guru”. So many things I heard and read say this is utterly a scam but why does my pal not see it for that? After reading the testimony of so many others on the Amthrax site I can see why he fails to see through the logic presented against TEAM and LIFE (appropriately names Lie(f) by many). Due to the “cult” environment and manipulation put on by those in the leadership roles, I can see why they would continue to follow down that path. I do not understand it based on my own un-indocrinated POV, but for someone as deep into it as they seem to be I can see why they fail to comprehend what to me is obvious and becomes clear to many others after spending time, money and energy in it. There’s more psychology coming at them then I ever thought there could be.

Two things in his email have me quite concerned.

First, they are selling their house. What?? We were there only a month ago fawning over it and not a single thing was said about it being put on the market — then or in the near future. Not that it’s any of our business but that just made absolutely no sense. Second, his 5 word sentence of “I have heard it all.” When I discuss my business, there NEVER comes a point in the conversation when I feel I have to say something like that. Why? Because its a real business and people are not looking at what I do with utter skepticism from the onset. There is a lot more wrong with the response but I’m trying (unsuccessfully) to keep this short.

Here is my question to you, and if you end up posting it, for you other bloggers that have been in TEAM: How can I reach this guy and help him? I believe they are selling their house because they can no longer afford it, although that is only a guess on my part. Neither he nor her have a regular “job” and by what I’ve read here I doubt that TEAM, LIFE or MonaVie are providing all that well for them. We care for their well-being but also know they are totally into this stuff. I think of it like a gambling addict that has to keep going back because they’ve stuck a ton of money into the machine and they are always just that next dollar away from the triple seven payoff. I hope you or someone can offer advice.

Please don’t include my full name or email address if you post this – I am concerned about identity theft. Not by you or bloggers on the site but by others that may be making their way through here. Please call me “Roy Bobbin”. Thank you.

Some key points from Roy’s letter:

  • Roy’s friend has tried to get him involved with the TEAM MonaVie business before. Now he’s trying — despite what he says about just giving him “good information” — to get Roy involved with TEAM LIFE.
  • The friend continues to use refer to Orrin Woodward’s dubious leadership “awards” from LeadershipGurus.net and the IAB.
  • His friend is selling his house. I hope he didn’t get advice from his upline to become debt-free by getting rid of his mortgage and selling his house? I hope his upline isn’t encouraging him to pay for everything in cash. And, I hope his friend knows about Round Table and Policy Council members who have foreclosed on their homes and initiated strategic defaults on their properties.
  • The friend talks about people in TEAM LIFE having a better understanding of finances in their lives. That’s great, but how many people are making money in this venture. If you look at how people are prospected to get into this business, it’s almost always about making money. Why is it that it always becomes about being a better person after just a few months? This is because TEAM LIFE needs to distract their members from the simple fact that no one (except for those near the top) is making any money at all.

Roy’s story shows the concern that friends and family have for those who are gripped in the clutches of TEAM. They, like many others who have shared their stories on this site, don’t want their friends to lose their house and lose their friendship.

So, is there any way for Roy to talk some sense into his friend? What’s it going to take for this couple — two plus years into TEAM MonaVie and now TEAM LIFE — to understand that this business opportunity might be doing them more harm than good?

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87 Comments leave one →
  1. freedomhaha permalink
    March 5, 2012 11:11 am

    When I was leaving TEAM at the launch of LIFE we are all told to call up all the people that said “no” before and pitch this as a new totally different business. I don’t believe that was ethical, but is anything they do?

  2. whirlwinded permalink
    March 5, 2012 11:14 am

    I wonder the very same thing. I lost a friend of over 25 years that I had reunited with just a couple short years ago defending my dignity, my faith, & character because I struck a nerve with him about my concerns with TEAM / LIFE, & why I felt it wasn’t right. He’s on many of my other friends lists (I should add that some from TEAM / LIFE will scour your Facebook friends list & recruit anyone & everyone that will swallowed

  3. whirlwinded permalink
    March 5, 2012 11:19 am

    ….oops, sorry. Typing from a tiny Android screen… Anyway, they will recruit anyone they can to swallow the vomit of TEAM / LIFE. They really seem to care less of friendships lost. I never knew brainwashing could reach such an extent. As a Christian I have just left it up to the Lord.. that someday they’ll see the error of their ways, & turn themselves around.

  4. switch permalink
    March 5, 2012 12:30 pm

    What a shame. Their home is up for sale and they still can’t get it through their heads.

    Sorry to say it Roy, (and we all know you want to help badly) but it’s going to take a lot more than just you to get the message through to them.

  5. CGC permalink
    March 5, 2012 12:36 pm

    You will have to proceed with caution because it sounds like your friend is heavily indoctrinated. If you push too hard he will probably cut off all communication with you (that is part of the LIFE philosophy – avoid negative influences).

    Besides the articles here, such as “Fifty + Questions for TEAM LIFE”, here are three links with some good info:

    http://skeptoid.com/episodes/4187
    http://eomtc.com/articles/cult3.htm
    http://www.howcultswork.com/

    I think a good starting point would be to focus on the “business”. See if he can clearly explain just how one can make money with LIFE and then see if he can honestly show you how much he is actually netting from it (considering all LIFE related expenses). The article here about the actual figures is useful to understanding the compensation plan:

    https://amthrax.wordpress.com/2011/11/12/reader-report-figures-dont-lie/

    Good luck.

  6. March 5, 2012 1:14 pm

    @CGC and @Roy – This paragraph from the eomtc.com/articles/cult3.htm web page is especially apt for TEAM LIFE members to heed:

    When Does a Multi-level Marketing Organization Become a Cult?

    The quick answer is when the profit motive is superseded by an ideological commitment. When people who are LOSING money don’t get out. When its not a business but a all-encompassing lifestyle. When the business runs you instead of you running it. When those over you in the business take over your personal life.

  7. switch permalink
    March 5, 2012 1:17 pm

    Roy’s friend in team says-

    “As for the business I am in: at least 10 people have a better understanding about finances, 2 marriages have been saved, 1 person is no longer a substance abuser, and that is just what has happened in our business alone. Multiply that by a few thousand and you have a lot people being helped. I have become a better person, my marriage has become stronger, and my relationship with my children is the best it has ever been. I am not being scammed and I am not scamming anyone (like the article said). The information is the best in the world for helping with Faith, Family, Finances, Fitness, Following, Freedom ( which is very important to me), Friends, and Fun. If you ever need any help in any of these, I can refer some great information to you.”

    Here’s where a lot of the deception lies….. NO WHERE in the history of team or lief have they been QUALIFIED to treat such problems. He just had the balls to tell Roy that someone is no longer a “substance abuser” because of this???!!!!! It takes a lot more to get someone sober of a life long disease like alcoholism or drug addiction.

    and then he admits to “not scamming anyone” right after that….. lol ….. Roy’s friend doesn’t even know he’s lying!

    the deception never ends, does it team?

  8. Katie permalink
    March 5, 2012 3:19 pm

    Roy, sorry to hear about your friend. As far as his response of “I’ve seen it all,” I know that comes with an air of smugness about it… when I was involved and people would tell me they weren’t interested, I had been brainwashed to the point of thinking they were really missing out on something great. I’m sure other people have said far worse things to him than sending an article, although if they’ve only been in it for two years I doubt he’s really “seen it all.”

    Switch makes the best point – his success stories are purely anecdotal – there is NO PROOF that this business is great. For every success story out there, there is a broken heart. We are the proof of that. And as Switch said, these guys aren’t doctors, therapists, social workers, counselors, or miracle workers. They’re rich and charismatic and they prey on people who have hurt in their lives, and teach others to do the same. This business is literally crafted so that new recruits are taught to read the personalities of their friends and even total strangers so they can show a plan tailored specifically to their type of person to improve the chances of recruiting them. Sick!

    As far as how to help your friend and his wife… I wish I knew what to offer. Do be careful, because he may shut you out completely. Be there to support them as a friend, and keep your fingers crossed that they get away from the “business” before they lose any more of their time, money, or dignity.

  9. Vogel permalink
    March 5, 2012 5:37 pm

    “For every success story out there, there is a broken heart.”

    A lot more than one broken heart! The success-to-heartbreak ratio is probably worse than 1/100. 😮

  10. das permalink
    March 5, 2012 5:49 pm

    Roy, I’d mail him his CD back and tell him you will be there for him when he decides to get honest. Deep in his heart he knows he is being scammed and scamming others but can’t admit it, just like most of us that have been involved with Team. Eventually he will need your support when he wakes up from this nightmare.

  11. No Team For Me permalink
    March 5, 2012 9:21 pm

    Does anyone know if there are laws in any states which prohibit someone from counseling others on marraige, substance abuse, finances, etc without a license?

  12. das permalink
    March 6, 2012 1:09 am

    Not sure about laws but even if there were the members of Team gave away any rights they have according to the P&P they signed. Orrin Woodward has been at this recruiting scam for 20 some years and knows how to cover his back. The P&P were probably written by some of the slickest MLM attorneys money can buy.

  13. das permalink
    March 6, 2012 1:26 am

    Roy, Your friend should call 911 and report a robbery in progress. That’s what’s really going on. The money and home can be replaced, but his dignity and self-respect are harder to replace once he realizes that he gave these thieves his permission to rob him.

    I commend you Roy for doing your own research on the IAB and how the self-anointed, self-appointed manipulator Orrin Woodward became the #1 guru in the world. You figured that out before reading it here. Great job! Good luck trying to help your friend and minimize the damage. Some have to hit bottom before they wake up.

  14. freedomhaha permalink
    March 6, 2012 5:49 am

    Ladies and Gentlemen of Amthrax, how come Orrin doesn’t promote his status as the #7 leadership guru anymore? I would have to assume this blog. It will be interesting to see what his next move is since the IAB award is a fraud.

    Roy, you make a great point that in your business you never have people negative about something from the outset or have their guard up. I am in the process of starting my own small business and I am never ashamed to share my idea like I was with TEAM. People never feel like they are being scammed like they automatically do with TEAM/LIEf.

  15. March 6, 2012 10:33 am

    Roy,

    Your friends’ statements about all the positive life changes that people on his team have experienced are typical. Orrin & Co. always point out how people’s lives have changed for the better – it’s their way of making your friends see that there’s more to Life than making money (very appropriate wording since they’ll never make money in Life!).

    I’m sure there are people on Team Life who have experienced positive changes, but those changes likely won’t last. I can recall many former teammates who reverted back to their destructive lifestyles after the financial strain of the Team took its toll. They were barely making ends meet to start with and the amount of money spent on tools only pushed them further and further into a bad situation. In the long run, any positive changes were more than counteracted by the fact that the underlying problems were not treated by a professional and they didn’t go away. Their problems were only exacerbated by the fact that now they were also in debt.

    Since you are a business man and your friends seem to respect that about you, maybe you could come at it from the viewpoint of asking them some business questions. (What are the start-up costs? When can you expect a return on your initial investment? What is the product? What is the IAB? (maybe if they’re forced to research it themselves instead of just giving the canned answer, they might get enlightened)). If you can get them thinking about these logical questions, and possibly even doing some research, it may get their critical reasoning kicked back into gear. That’s eventually what did it for us.

  16. Speak Your Truth permalink
    March 6, 2012 1:54 pm

    Roy~

    You are a intelligent person and already understand business; STAND YOUR GROUND! And if you really want to understand on how to help; Read up on Cults, Mind Control and Undue Influence; Margarette Singer, Robert Lifton, Steve Hassan, Rick Ross, their websites and Books. Otherwise, Unfortuntely it sad and we all have been where you are ‘wanting to help your friend’ but I am afraid there is no majic to help him, he will have to ‘learn’ the hardway, you can only be there when he hits bottom. Don’t be fooled, you would be better off on focusing on not allowing him to blindside you.

    It is part of the step by step ‘process’ that he will ‘stop by’ and ‘pick up the materials’…That is going as planned on his part…Prepare and stay alert!

    He will ‘use’ every deceptive technique in his ‘bag of tricks’; that he knows. He will try and wear you down, get you to ‘listen, or read’ more material, ‘leveraging the system to work for him’ based on what he knows about your ‘needs’ and ‘personality.’ It is a very calculated process. He will throw some guilt, jabs, rhetoric, that will try and confuse you and stop your logical thinking. He will promote the ‘leadership’ as the best in the world and the wealthiest..lol

    Good luck! :)…You already know what game is being played…stick to what you know!

  17. March 7, 2012 10:14 am

    Foregoing suggestions are very good. Whatever you do don’t confront your friend-he’ll shut you out. Your established track record as a successful business owner is an advantage you have in all this but it presents a-moth-to-a-light attraction for your friend to try to get you. To MLMers that track record is commonly referred to as “fruit on the tree.” This they are taught & drilled to regard highly – you would be a “great catch.” Thus, it’s true your friend will continue to put his stinky teamscam moves on you. Use your advantage as a businessman to ask critical common sense business questions that you design to get them into think as well, be it later wherever they will be, they just might have an awakening moment. Remember don’t challenge their ideology but you can stand firm and voice and/or challenge their answers from an independent thinking business angle. Such questions your friend will actually expect from you (you being a bizz-man), especially because they are taught a strategy called “overcoming objections.” It’s ridiculous these mlm cults interpret legitimate business questions as objections. Once objections are overcome the hope/expectation is you don’t have any reason not to enroll. Also don’t bring up critical websites like this without a proper strategy – they are taught stay away, for the web is the “bathroom wall of the world.”

  18. March 7, 2012 10:24 am

    I contend whatever so called positive changes one may experience from TEAM involvement (or any MLM), have a greater propensity towards superficialism; it is my experience and that of numerous others, that the positive changes can be obtained for way less $$$ and time.

    These “positive changes” are touted in lieu of the mediocrity of not making any money in TEAM which is, in of itself as such and actually by design. It’s a strategy that numbs the brain from critical thinking and evaluative skills which if employed would depict the folly of involvement in TEAM or MLMs generally, viz-a-viz just bleeding cash for 99%+ of it’s adherents. In other words it becomes a social gathering/club that is delivering to MLMers, goodness (the phony positive changes) the adherents having forgotten or made a choice to disregard that the basis for enrolling was to make profit.

  19. Freedomhaha permalink
    March 7, 2012 10:32 am

    The positive changes are touted after the fact as a “bait-and-switch” method. The plan “Money, money, money” after you get in “Forget about money because you won’t make any”.

  20. March 7, 2012 11:31 am

    Pretty tough thing to sell, monthly motivation. Especially when there’s no proof of it’s effectiveness nor profitability.

    Tough break Roy. Your buddy has toys in the attic for now, but they will clear out when he decides to

    a) Listen to someone other than his upline
    b) Goes broke

    I wish you well. Stick to your guns.

  21. Speak Your Truth permalink
    March 7, 2012 3:03 pm

    Roy your friend says:

    “If you really want to know who Orrin Woodward is then take a look at his leadership blog and judge him on what he stands for, not from some liberal “journalist” who is trying to save the world.”

    First this is a very prejudice, hypocritical, arrogant, and double standard, that your buddy is trying to send. This is such common practice; it is pathetic. It is the M.O. of Team, to criticize the outside world (this too is what cults do) for the very thing they are trying to ‘sell’ everyone else on, that ‘they’ are doing; dogging and judging ‘liberal journalist’ but Orrin runs a scam and has his own ‘political agenda’ and he too says he is “trying to save the world.”

    Hmm…Where is the difference?

    Then he states: sidebar: “Orrin is the #7 leadership guru in the world and just won the IAB award as the #1 leadership person in business) Orrin speaks out against the media often so it does not surprise me when articles are written about him.”
    We already know the first sentence is a joke but then interesting what your friends says next: “Orrin speaks out against the media often so it does not surprise me when articles are written about him.”

    Hmm.., sounds familiar and yet another double standard..Think Amthrax blog…and the Anti-Amthrax articles ‘written about those on Amthrax.’

    Again, hypocrisy much or where is the difference?

    Next he says: .“I would not expect you to join me in trying to help people with their problems.”

    That Roy.. is exactly the little guilt and manipulation tactics they all use. He thinks he is clever but I bet he never thought in a million years he would be reading his very own manipulating tactics being exposed on Amthrax…haha.

    The other side of the coin it is sad; the uniformed don’t have a clue these despicable tactics are done with ‘specific intent’ they are systematically and strategically done but the ‘victim’ thinks it is done spontaneously. It is ‘practiced manipulation’. Thanks for posting that so others witness the results of the claimed; ‘proven and world class, training system’ in action.

    Then he says: “The cd I gave you was just to give you awareness of what is going on in this country, I certainly did not intend to have you join anything.”

    I will call lies on that statement. I don’t for a second believe he was just ‘trying’ to make you “aware of what is going on in this country.” Total BS, and I believe he flat out is lying, whether he is conscious of it or not, the indoctrination and from practice, you do say many things on autopilot; But I don’t believe for a second he had no intention for you to NOT ‘join’. It is amazing how deceptive the game is.

    Your Buddy continues with yet the same guilt and manipulation tactic: “How you decide to help is completely up to you, I just hope you (and others) who are good people decide to do something before it is too late.”

    He says: “If you ever want to talk about what was wrong in the article just let me know.”~

    This is laughable, In other words if you want to hear how we ‘spin it’ or hand this particular objections, I would be happy to give you our candid jabs (explanation) that we can get you to shut up about the article and get you to feel stupid about believing that “liberal journalists”; who see’s Orrin for what he is and not what Orrin promotes himself as or we want to or others to believe.

    Funny I highly doubt He would tell you Orrin was looking forward to the Forbes Article coming out when he thought it was going to be ‘good credible press’ by that same ‘liberal journalist’, which he would have had everyone on the Team get a copy to show the plan with..lol. But obviously it backed fired on him, he was furious and now they are just a ‘liberal journalists’ who doesn’t like Orrin ‘speaking out’ about the media; (handling objection)…LOL

    Roy, I wish you well and hope you don’t fall for the guilt tactics, your friend I don’t believe is the same friend you knew before; he has ‘changed’. You can decide how you see those changes.

    All my comments are based on years of personal and others experience, the facts 🙂

  22. Freedomhaha permalink
    March 7, 2012 3:15 pm

    The TEAM makes Conservatives look really bad. I promise we are not all this dumb 😉

  23. Speak Your Truth permalink
    March 7, 2012 3:26 pm

    Freedomhaha~

    No worries..We all know Orrin and his minions make themselves look bad…it has nothing to do with the rest of us…and you left so your safe…LOL.:)

  24. Speak Your Truth permalink
    March 7, 2012 3:32 pm

    And it was suppose to say my comments are also based on my opinion. 🙂

  25. CGC permalink
    March 7, 2012 4:05 pm

    Speak Your Truth,

    “… the uniformed don’t have a clue these despicable tactics are done with ‘specific intent’ they are systematically and strategically done but the ‘victim’ thinks it is done spontaneously. It is ‘practiced manipulation’.”

    Do you mean they have a strategy, something like this?

    http://fcit.usf.edu/holocaust/people/DocPropa.htm

    Okay — I’ve succumbed to Godwin’s law. But the parallels are so irresistible.

  26. Speak Your Truth permalink
    March 7, 2012 4:36 pm

    CGC~

    LOL.. They most definitely have a ‘strategy’; they would call it “handling objections” and while you are playing the game; you believe, it is the ‘norm’, what works, and how everyone does it in ‘sales’. And those who got good at that and ‘controlling’ the conversation, among other techniques, had the biggest teams.

    Yep, just plain good ole’ sales techniques that they have ‘learned’ from the Top 5 and the fastest, greatest, movin-on, no-one can touch this smartest guru’s in the world…lol.

    Unfortuantely, based on experience, I know better and beg to differ. 🙂

  27. Speak Your Truth permalink
    March 7, 2012 4:41 pm

    Or ‘fortunately’; at least now I can spot the game a mile away… the ‘strategy’ and ‘techniques’.. have become, crystal clear…I look forward to more of and Too bad for any MLM’er who tries to contact me, now…Lmao! 🙂

  28. Tony permalink
    March 9, 2012 8:12 am

    Unfortunately the only ones drinking the “kool-aide” are those believing this site. I’m guessing it’s run by some fool who really doesn’t know how it all works. And I’m guessing my comments here won’t be published due to the fact it doesn’t go along with all the ooooing and ahhhhing for the author. It doesn’t state why selling their house. Maybe moving locations??? Maybe upsizing or downsizing???? This whole page is written as some liberal reporter would. How many of you on here actually research why this page is so adamantly against Orrin/TEAM/LIFE?????? Everyone has a motive, and I’m guessing this persons motivation has links to either failing at something or good ol’ Amway who is still bitter that the leaders of TEAM kept their integrity and not fold to scAmways big corporate muscle years ago. Notice they mention nothing of Amway or Quixtar?????? That’s who is more than likely behind the misinformation parade, and so be it. It is unfortunate when someone has to go against anothers ways instead of just promoting their own!

  29. Tony permalink
    March 9, 2012 8:15 am

    Oh my, and from one posters idea… “does anyone know if there are laws for counseling without a license”???? If you aren’t getting paid it’s called being a FRIEND!!! This page astonishes me how uninformed the opinions get. Like chickens in the barnyard, one starts to bleed and they all attack till it’s dead. None of them know why, they just do!

  30. Roy Bobbin permalink
    March 9, 2012 10:20 am

    Hello to all that have commented and offered advice and a lot of anecdotal assistance. There is/was never a chance I or my wife would eventually be “lured in” or anything like that. The ground we stand on puts the firm in Terra Firma. It is the psychology behind the “business” of Team, LIFE and MonaVie that I have the hardest time wrapping my mind around.

    It seems that once you’re “in” there is a control placed on a person that they can no longer think in terms of running a business, or their own life for that matter, in a normal, rational way. Please understand I am not trying to offend anyone on this site, or anywhere else for that matter. I know you have lived that life for many years. What is the “trap”? Financial freedom and the promise of making money that seems to only materialize for a small percentage? Time with family that seems to turn into time spent sharing this wonderful opportunity with anyone else that will listen?

    After a short conversation with my friend the other day, I asked him if his son might be available for work as there is a chance I would be hiring in the next month or two and I thought of his son. Unfortunately the son is moving out of the area but my friend asked me about the hiring time frame and to let him know when it might take place because he “might know someone that would be interested.” I suspect it’s him but didn’t ask as I’m really trying to not rock the boat too much. It makes me feel bad that they just can’t see beyond the lines they are apparently allowed to see. They really are great people.

  31. March 9, 2012 11:05 am

    @Tony – You need to read my About section at the top of this page. Please do your own research before coming on this site and making accusations that are groundless.

  32. outsider permalink
    March 9, 2012 11:18 am

    Roy said: “It is the psychology behind the “business” of Team, LIFE and Monavie that I have the hardest time wrapping my mind around.”
    And: “What is the trap?”

    I was stuck on those same things when my family members began down the slippery slope of Monavie. I took the advice of others here and read up on the psychology of destructive cults and then all those weird little details (that I observed with my relatives) fell into place. There really is a pattern to it all – it just wasn’t what I expected, mostly because it’s so twisted that noboby would really be expecting the cult/mind control thing unless they had seen it before. If you’re truly curious about the trap, read Merchants of Deception, like everybody here advises (link to free download is on this site) or Hassan or any of the others recommended here.

    Thanks to all here who pointed all that out to me in the past. It’s been quite an education. I’m sorry for all who learn or have learned it the hard way – through personal experience!

  33. das permalink
    March 9, 2012 3:05 pm

    @Tony, You are wrong, Amway and Quixtar are both scams too. They are both recruiting scams and that is why Orrin was affiliated with them. I believe Orrin and Chris left, got booted, whatever you want to call it was simply because of the lie that Team told over and over, that Quixtar was not Amway. When they were going to change the name back to Amway against Orrin’s wishes, he didn’t have much of a choice. Also Amway was cracking down on the tool scam money and Team’s profits were going bye bye.

    The only belief I have in this site is that it’s helping many of us heal that got sucked into the lies of Team. You too can get better, just lay off the cd’s and quit giving your money to Orrin and his pals. You can get all of the same information for free.

  34. Speak Your Truth permalink
    March 9, 2012 3:18 pm

    Tony~

    You seem really bitter. I’m guessing you to be Roy’s ‘recruiter’ and the person who sent the ’email’ to Roy….Could I be right?…ROFL!

    Why don’t you tell us why they ( you) are ‘moving’?

    Your assumptions are hysterical…thanks for the laughs. 🙂

    Your arguments and assumptions are so weak they are hysterical. I cannot stop laughing. If you are thinking you are going to ‘win’ the ‘prospects’ over after reading your comments, you better find something to say that is more compelling. No one… not even the ‘new prospect’ would fall for your BS.

    Anyone that has any common sense or critical thinking would easily be able to decipher the difference between your Bs and the commenter’s from this blog; their experiences and facts: anyone can figure out what and who would be “drinking the kool-aid.” Haha!

    Also anyone who is able to think and read could easily figure out the ‘motive’ of the Blog owner (because he spells it out for you, DUH! ) and all the other commenter’s ‘motives.’ I don’t know why it seems to be so difficult for you? …LOL.

    But ya gotta love the ole Amway conspiracy behind the blog…haha.

    Tony says: “Notice they mention nothing of Amway or Quixtar?????? That’s who is more than likely behind the misinformation parade, and so be it.”

    Tony,…you might want to read the entire blog, your comment there makes you look really foolish. As a matter of fact Amway/Quixtar has been mentioned numerous times on this site; especially about the fact that when we STP (the entire time in Team) you are NOT to mention Amway or Quixtar, that was a (secret) they were our “supplier”, so you must be talking about Orrin and Co. when you are talking about “Notice they mention nothing of Amway or Quixtar?????”

    Why don’t you Ask Orrin that question, he NEVER mentions he was in Amway/ Quixtar and was in it for 14 years! He calls it ‘ his former supplier’. Either you are confusing us w/ yourself/Orrin & Co. so that statement is yet another hypocritical one, I might add…

    Tony says: “That’s who is more than likely behind the misinformation parade,”

    Tony, I would say your post is full of the “misinformation parade.” Because anyone else see’s the truth here.

  35. No Team For Me permalink
    March 9, 2012 5:35 pm

    Tony (aka another annonymous RT or PC) – Amthrax does post opposing views on his site. This site is actually seeking the truth. Try that with Orrin. As much as he claims to seek truth, he sure ducks, hides and runs away when anyone tries to challenge him head on.

    Why won’t Orrin allow posts on his site which challenge him? He is now guilty of the very things he used to rant on about Dexter. Orrin has become Dexter, only worse. Fortunately, with the internet, the truth is coming out sooner and people are realizing the truth of what really goes on behind the scenes of Team/Life.

    Tony, do you really feel comfortable after signing the Life Policies & Proceedures? Have you really read it? do you realize they can take your business away at any time? Do you realize they have already done this to some of the biggest leaders in the history of Team?

    But, since you probably aren’t Tony, but actually a RT or PC trying to deflect the conversation, I guess it doesn’t matter.

    It’s very interesting that there have been so many people supporting Team recently who refuse to address the questions and instead are all trying to use the ‘kill the messenger’ attack method.

  36. webelieved permalink
    March 9, 2012 5:36 pm

    Roy- You see Orrin used to lie about what he was really selling. He hid behind other businesses/products and unknown to us, sold us the dream based on the income/millions he was making behind the scenes from his parasite “tool” business, not from the actual business he was suposed to be selling, Quixtar. They always called the business Team and said we were building communities for residual, pipeline income, in which products and services flowed, and we had a supplier. (we learned later it really was Amway) Your first checks came from Quixtar (the supplier according to them)…..not Team. When we were in and didn’t know about the tool income our upline was making, it was pounded into us over and over that we weren’t good enough and we needed more leadership training to make our business work, hence we needed to mentor more, study more, therefore buy more books, cds, seminar tickets!
    Just when you realized after much work, time and money, the results were not worth the investment, than Team leaders would let you in on the little secret… the Team tool income. They called it Team profit sharing. This was behind the scenes and wasn’t disclosed to prospects when they were being recruited or first building the business. You had to hit a significant level to get it, and by then you felt trapped mentally and financially, you had invested so much time and money into the thing. After studying all of this, I would guess it wasn’t legal to make more money from the tools than from the product and that is exactly what was happening for years!
    Than after years of all of the money the Team PC makes off of the tools sold to their Amway distributors, who thought of themselves as Team distributors, Orrin sues Amway and calls it a pyramid scheme! He said their prices are too high. We all know this was part of the problem on some items, but the other part Orrin doesn’t mention is he didn’t care much about customers or the product as long as his tool money was flowing as we were taught to push the little button on our orders to claim it was customer volume. Of course none of us little guys knew what it was for, we were following our trainers, not changing the system, like they told us! In fact I can say much less than 1% of the seminars we went to, did the speakers talk about having customers or actually selling the products to customers. In fact speakers were not told to talk specifically about products, benefits etc. The Team was all about recruiting and stacking and both Orrin and Amway knew it! The training seminars were all about Team and selling the system of tools, cds, books and seminar tickets. When Orrin sued Quixtar/Amway he never let us know that apparantly Amway was cracking down on the tool businesses and Team was rumored to be getting shut down, which would cut out his millions! Team was very deceptive in their recruiting, calling the business e-commerce, an internet business, your business, pipeline, residual, ongoing, btype income in their recruiting. Never did they say “we sell Amway products” or we are Amway distributors. I am embarassed to say we were trained to manipulate and decieve people all in the guise of making a difference in the world. Now that I am not brainwashed by their system, I can see this. 😦

    I find it funny that now that they started LIFE, Orrin cannot hide what he is really selling! (basically the same tool business/mentoring b.s. they had, with a new name and game). They cannot hide the fact they want you to give up control in every area of your life. They cannot hide that the majority of people in Team are not making a profit or that they are not qualified and do not have the training to properly counsel people. They also cannot drag distributors to the tool room without them knowing their upline is getting paid on what they are pursuading the distributor to buy! How many books does one need on the shelf and why would a sane healthy person let some stranger tell them what to read, how to think and how to live their lives when they are not being decieved?
    I am happy to say the gig is up, no longer can they decieve and confuse people as well as they used to. 🙂

    * all my comments are my opinions from years of experience with Team now called LIFE and their leaders.

  37. webelieved permalink
    March 9, 2012 5:58 pm

    When we first saw how much my upline was making it was the same amount as he was getting from Quixtar, and he was a Platnum. The leaders higher up made more from tools than from Quixtar. When we left Amway of course the leaders all went with Team and of course Orrin finally showed the income potential to the distributors on a projector screen, a few months before the split. Than after we all left and followed him, and his promises of the walmart of the internet, ( which he later denied) he started knocking down his leaders pay. He claimed no profit sharing money was going for lawsuits and than claimed it was….. he also claimed he never said anything about the Walmart of the internet, and yet their is a cd called the Future of The Internet…. and people know he had something lined up at one time…. but I heard he denied it in court to Amway. He kept his houses and his boats and yet let a lot of his leaders take the financial hit …..nice guy hey? Then he drags everyone into Monavie claiming he benchmarked it to be the best business without disclosing to his teams the millions he got from in a deal from Monavie…… the story goes on from there eventually leading to the LIFE business…..Orrin has been running the ruse since what the 90’s!?

    *my comments are all based on my opinions and experiences on Team.

  38. Speak Your Truth permalink
    March 9, 2012 6:17 pm

    Webelieved~

    Same experience that we all had, and everyone knows that is exactly what we did, isn’t it funny, how they all deny it the truth. Great info.

    I found this statement from Troy; very interesting.:

    “If you aren’t getting paid it’s called being a FRIEND!!!”

    Is this the ‘new’ twist on ‘mentorship?’ They are calling it ‘friendship?’ Another spin job to cover their a$$. Who in their right mind pays for “friends” to call them their ‘mentors?’

    BTW, Tony~ Do you think the PC are getting ‘paid’ to mentor others? Because we know as Natalie stated you do ‘pay’ for mentorship in many ways and If you are ‘paid’ that would make you a ‘professional’ and would be the reason you would be expected to have a license.

    Tony are you admitting that 96% aren’t making a profit (are all just friends/mentors) and they just joined a ‘social club’ to give others friendly advice? Hahaha! Getting closer to the truth here.

    And if you are listening to the ‘guru’ he would tell if YOU are going to be a ‘leader’; you will have to treat your (Orrin’s) ‘business’ as a ‘business’, not as a ‘hobby’ and who wants to ‘PAY’ for an exspensive ‘social club, anyway with some fake friends that ‘believe’ they will eventually become rich and be paid ‘mentors?’ Not a wise choice.

  39. Freedomhaha permalink
    March 9, 2012 7:01 pm

    Tony- Thanks for the laugh buddy! This site has made a huge profound impact on my life.

    Here is the question Tony: What % of your team is making a profit?

  40. Freedomhaha permalink
    March 9, 2012 7:02 pm

    Needless to say the impact was positive 🙂

  41. switch permalink
    March 9, 2012 7:59 pm

    Tony says-
    “And I’m guessing my comments here won’t be published due to the fact it doesn’t go along with all the ooooing and ahhhhing for the author”…….

    ….so much for that one, eh, tony?!!! But DAMN, talk about a comment coming up and biting someone in the ASS!!!

    That was absolutely brutal, tony. Must suck to be you.

  42. Mesha permalink
    March 10, 2012 4:14 am

    KInda funny how they all sound the same isnt it?;)

  43. webelieved permalink
    March 10, 2012 6:31 am

    Mesha- They all sound the same, just like the cds they are listening to. More proof of thought reform.

  44. das permalink
    March 10, 2012 9:01 am

    Tony, unlike all of Orrin’s blogs, this site seeks the truth and opposing arguments are welcome. It’s up to the readers to decipher what is right or wrong. You won’t find any opposing posts on Orrin’s blogs or his anonymous blogs for that matter.

    Do you know the truth about Team? Read up on this site because what is posted here are the truths about what happened to all of us and out loved ones. It’s only a matter of time before it happens to you Tony.

  45. What the??? permalink
    March 12, 2012 10:11 am

    Mesha – My ex got me sucked into a completely different MLM (Reliv) a few years ago. I read a post about the lingo used in Amway/Team/Monavie etc. I was amazed at how closely the message matched Reliv: J.O.B = Just Over Broke, passive residual income, breakthrough market, etc, etc, etc. When I got approached about LIEF last fall, the warning bells starting going off. I have LIEFers in my community and my church. Gotta be prepared to attack this stuff.

  46. Mesha permalink
    March 13, 2012 9:49 pm

    What the??
    – I’m not too familiar with other MLMs but it seems like they do all use the same lingo… and they are spreading sadly. Now more of my friends have started joining things like Visalus. As for me, I’m staying far, far,far did I mention far? away.

  47. Hershall Sweet permalink
    March 15, 2012 5:35 pm

    I agree that the information passed on through Team members is helpful. I agree that friends recommend movies and restaurants and doctors and pastors to their friends because it’s the right thing to help when you can. But they don’t do it because they can make money from helping. In regular day to day life, we don’t come into contact with information that can really help us. Team may have pointed that out to me. That was good. But that’s where it has to end! The awareness is enough. Now I can go on and seek out and share what matters most to me and my family, friends, peers and community. But I don’t need to add money to the pursuit. And I shouldn’t.
    A business is usually about filling a need but not about using needs to fill wallets.
    Team is not a business but a scheme. The creepiest part of what they do has been mentioned often. They keep you coming back with the promise of making things better for society in general. But the hook is financial independence. There’s a disconnect between those two things. Independence, community, interdependence, freedom…. They’re puzzle pieces from different sets.
    Roy might ask his friend to quantify how many people were recognized in Columbus vs. how many were in the arena. He might ask how many people are with his group (up and down line) who go to everything for years but never achieve any rank. He might multiply the cost of admission to functions by approximate attendance nation wide. That number adds up to enough to keep the policy council comfortable. Add up all the tools and EBC and divide by round table members and they can replace salaries from jobs. The pay plan doesn’t really score. It’s just Scooby Snaks. Subscribers pay for it.
    Tell him to leverage the knowledge outside of the plan!! It’ll be way more satisfying!!

  48. Mike Collins permalink
    March 16, 2012 4:38 am

    Great post Hershall

  49. Chris permalink
    March 18, 2012 1:17 am

    first of all team is not a cult or a scam. if u really want to go after scammers, how bout the government. A cult is more of worship of a person or.a.thing usually a religious sect or somekind of mind control. The cds.are meant for learning and inspiration. What more descibes team is its more of a culture. The team system is meant for everyone to learn the same thimgs and do it in a way to leverage time. for instance u can listen to a cd while.your doing something else, therefore saving time over your business.
    If its a scam, i dont believe that many people would be iN this.

    The problem is.this there are scams everywhere. This business as far as my eyes see has been trustworthy. Itd not perfect though. Again sometimes people exaggerate on this site. for example when.they say the team says its bad to go to college, they never said that. I tell u what for me and a lot of others the real scam is going to college and not getting a job that u went to college for. Thats what team means. How much do u pay for abook at college? thatd a scam! Can i apply algebra in e eryday life?no. so for it was a scam. as for other people it may not be.

    I read freedomshift and its a very.insightful book and I recommended it to others also, simply because i liked the book. I listened.to a cd.about the.financial crises in the car.while i was taking my mom somewhere, guess what? she said yea that’s true, that makes sense. So.the info is good, it helps others know more about issues that matter and focus on soltions that can make a difference. So tell me? what’s the scam? Your telling me all businesses are scams? Because don’t u usually have to put money into a business? for this its startup fee, tools, seminars, which by the way.is a.tax.write off. ? Now is there dishonest people on team? I’m sure.there is. Wake up, there is dishonesty everywhere, politics, work, college sandusky scandel, even church. I’ve found the.people on team to be honest, and they.stand.for.it, are they perfect, no. I don’t know all of your experiences, but mine overall have been good. Did.i have doubts at first, yes. I said to myself maybe ill catch them this time in a lie, Sorry hasn’t. happened yet. Go after the real criminals, who do real harm to others. Instead of bein critical of a business that helps people, how bout doing some good to others? Of course u probably don’t see it that way. Or otherwise why spend your life focusing on the bad in the world when u could be focusing on the.good.

  50. Mike Collins permalink
    March 18, 2012 8:12 am

    Chris: I can tell you are new and excited about this business. You have obviously fallen into the same trap that most do i.e. you happened upon this site and read a few comments and have come to a conclusion (albeit an incorrect one) I did the same thing.

    Before you continue repeating the nuggets of rhetoric that you have learned, do yourself a favor and study this analysis of the Lief comp plan:

    https://amthrax.wordpress.com/2011/11/12/reader-report-figures-dont-lie/

    Just read it without blinders on and ask yourself it is true. The numbers ARE the numbers. They DO NOT lie. They ARE NOT someone’s opinion. They ARE FACTS. Then look at your business and see if there is a correlation. Seeing you are so new to this (I am assuming this, forgive me if I’m wrong) it will probably be hard for you to do an analysis on your business if it is very small.

    However, should you decide in spite of the facts to continue trying to make money with this model I would suggest you return to the numbers when you find that you are spending more than you are making (which will be like the other 95%)

    If you are learning from Life and are happy with your purchase then good for you.

    If you are trying to build a business from it and actually turn a profit keep a close eye on how much you actually make and when the questions start cropping up, stop, take off the blinders, and look at the facts. The truth will set you free.

    BTW Chris, several people on this thread are former Round Table members and Policy Council members who were actually more successful with team than most of the people that are currently being paraded around the team circuit right now. You might want to stop and listen to what they have to say.

  51. Mike Collins permalink
    March 18, 2012 8:18 am

    Chris: I can tell you are new and excited about this business. You have obviously fallen into the same trap that most do i.e. you happened upon this site and read a few comments and have come to a conclusion (albeit an incorrect one) I did the same thing.

    Before you continue repeating the nuggets of rhetoric that you have learned, do yourself a favor and study the analysis of the Lief comp plan:

    Just read it without blinders on and ask yourself it is true. The numbers ARE the numbers. They DO NOT lie. They ARE NOT someone’s opinion. They ARE FACTS. Then look at your business and see if there is a correlation. Seeing you are so new to this (I am assuming this, forgive me if I’m wrong) it will probably be hard for you to do an analysis on your business if it is very small.

    However, should you decide in spite of the facts to continue trying to make money with this model I would suggest you return to the numbers when you find that you are spending more than you are making (which will be like the other 95%)

    If you are learning from Life and are happy with your purchase then good for you.

    If you are trying to build a business from it and actually turn a profit keep a close eye on how much you actually make and when the questions start cropping up, stop, take off the blinders, and look at the facts. The truth will set you free.

    BTW Chris, several people on this thread are former Round Table members and Policy Council members who were actually more successful with team than most of the people that are currently being paraded around the team circuit right now. You might want to stop and listen to what they have to say.

  52. Mike Collins permalink
    March 18, 2012 8:19 am

    here is the link to the analysis: https://amthrax.wordpress.com/2011/11/12/reader-report-figures-dont-lie/

  53. switch permalink
    March 18, 2012 8:00 pm

    Chris says-
    “Again sometimes people exaggerate on this site. for example when.they say the team says its bad to go to college, they never said that. I tell u what for me and a lot of others the real scam is going to college and not getting a job that u went to college for. Thats what team means. How much do u pay for abook at college? thatd a scam! ”

    Really? They never said that, eh Chris?…Can you account for everyone on the team?….Hey, according to you, they NEVER said it, right? Do you understand what you’re telling people, here?…According to your mind here, they never told people that “it’s bad to go to college” but yet you continue on with how the costs of college books are a scam…?

    Ok Chris, I’ll take your advice in which to tell my kids it’s perfectly fine to attend college but yet tell them the books to go along with the classes are a scam and basically a waste of money but please attend the class…..it makes absolutely no sense, Chris. And of course, it will be a cold day in living hell before I tell my kids something this obsurd and idiotic.

  54. switch permalink
    March 18, 2012 8:03 pm

    *absurd

    late and typing in the dark. 🙂

  55. webelieved permalink
    March 18, 2012 8:40 pm

    Chris- A team/lief education isn’t worth crap in the real world! In fact after years of spending time and money building Orrin’s business, we would’ve been much better off spending it on a college educations. The rhetoric they teach is ridiculous to the real world! A diploma from a accredited university is worth much more than the scam of a so called team education your paying for, one you can get for free by the way, by reading a few books from the library and hanging out at your local church.
    Unfortunately many of us realized this after years of wasted time and money……It’s disturbing that many of us spoke the same rhetoric you are using until we stopped drinking Orrin’s “kool aid”.
    Good luck, you’re going to need it!

  56. Chris permalink
    March 18, 2012 10:17 pm

    I’m not saying college is bad or a waste of money, if u get a job. Unfortunately many young people out of high schools have no direction or come out of a college with a degree. U cant argue with these facts. Yes college is way overpriced and the books are to. Overall college is risky unless u get really good grades and u go in the right field. The opportunity in the job market is down. How many graduates are jobless? A lot. You have to admit The team business is a good idea and I believe it can help businesses thrive and yourself also and your relationships.College doesn’t teach u leadership, or train u for real world problems. Team teaches to work as a team and take responsibility in life. Its all on your point of view and people uknow and your experiences. I know a lot of people who did well in college and are not doing what they went to school for. As in college its not for everyone and for the same as team. Right now college is more of a.risk. College is more and more expensive each year, jobs are going elsewhere, noones hiring, and graduates are struggling with higher debts than ever. I’m just saying there are.no guarantees in todays economy. To me team has a lot more advantages than disadvantages. can u lose money yes, can u make money yes. The ideals in this group are good qualities and we need leaders in our communities and our nation. People who will have integrity and do the right thing. The real reason Im staying with this group is the leaders and the principles they stand for. Nothing that I see has changed my mind so far. I’m not being brainwashed either. Most comments on here are mere speculation and have your facts coming from sources that.aren’t even with team. Let’s just say I am totally wrong about team and it is a.scam. What would be the reason they would go to life? They could sell something else? What’s your recommendation? What is the answer?

    If its a.cult, what harm are.they.doing?

    The objecttive u say is money or greed and the people that get in get ripped off. Welcome to our world. Isn’t money most everyones objective . The business model life isn’t about money or a.possession. It is about focusing on improving oneself and.focusing on.goals and.working as a team. Many people are finding that money helps, but helping other people with money and life is where the ticket is toget our country back in gear. Community, Leadership, and the 8 fs I think is what we all need.

    Relationships are the most important in this life and most of all God. Team is the only business model that I know of that even mentions these things and I believe team came in my life for a.reason. As long as I’m a witness and know that team is teaching good things I will be apart of this group. I’ve been on this site many times and a lot of it is speculation and being judgemental without knowing all the facts. How many good stories I heard on team ? a lot . Bad stories, just on this site. Well some of the comments on here are true, most of the reasons behind them are speculation.

  57. Chris permalink
    March 18, 2012 10:22 pm

    by the way, I dont believe in luck.

  58. Chris permalink
    March 19, 2012 1:09 am

    I understand your anger, u feel that u got scammed. What I’m saying is sometimes things happen for a reason. There are.scams everywhere. .nothing is sound. There is evil in all of us and good in all of us. for the choice is ours.I can’t be the judge of Orrin for God is the.judge. He admits he’s not perfect and makes mistakes. Hrs said it in cds and on stage. I admit he seems money hungryat.times, yet he’s a mollionioaire. I ask everyone are u perfect with good intentions all the time? I know I’m not. Orrin has good qualities, does he not? Why would he preach on integrity if he were a.fraud? He’d be lying to himself. He also talks a lot about servanthood, how often do u hear that in culture outside of church? I understand your trying to protect people from getting hurt. Most people are.already hurt. Hope is s good thing, I believe that team does more good than bad. Some might say its false hope. For me team is an outlet from the ordinary world, a group of people striving for a cause for hope to be excellent, to grow andlearn from eachother, to get to the strengths of what made America great-family, freedom, integrity, innovation, and faith are just some of these. U need money for a cause. Only God knows the intentions of the heart. I look for these things in a leader- what does he stand.for, does he do what he says, what’s his purpose, does he have Godly characteristics, who does he follow?. So far Ive asked these ?s and Orrin passed with flying colors. However as ive said before, hes not perfect. Do I know everything Orrin does behind closed doors? no? The point is were all born in sin, Jesus is the only one who didnt sin. I belive that Orrin wants to be better and stands for christian principles. I ask u as I will to pray for him if u believe he is a schemer, pray for the ones close to him. Pray for the ones who persecute u. I have many goals on team- I want to become a better leader, make some money to support myself and help others, to share my faith, and to make a difference in communities- team for me is this -its a vehicle to help acheive my goals, team goals and culture to help leaders, to help more leaders to build communities. to live on excellence and by doing that affecting culture in a positive way. Money is just the means of getting there. Money itself isnt bad, but the love of it is. There is a lot of demonising Orrin on this site. I think that is wrong. Everyone at one time made bad choices. I believe Orrin has good intentions, but who am I to judge good or bad, only God knows the intensions of the heart. I pray for the team that what they say is what they do. First we must start with ourselves. For I am a sinner saved by grace.

  59. CGC permalink
    March 19, 2012 4:22 am

    Here are some numbers for you Chris:

    http://www.bls.gov/emp/ep_chart_001.htm

    Education pays off, especially in the long run.

    What LIFE offers is available for free and as a business proposition it stinks.

  60. freedomhaha permalink
    March 19, 2012 4:59 am

    Chris- I was reading your post and before I could do anything else I had to comment on your quote.

    “A cult is more of worship of a person or.a.thing ”

    I don’t know about you, but how do you describe the way that Orrin is treated? If that isn’t worship I don’t know what is!! He is looked at as nothing other than a Messiah figure that will take them to 1,000,000 people (aka promised land). Absolutely sickening stuff!!

  61. freedomhaha permalink
    March 19, 2012 5:09 am

    Chris- First off Orrin has to be cringing while reading your posts. As far as blind defenders go your posts are some of the funniest yet! Also, I don’t believe that your grammar (or lack thereof) is a great endorsement of TEAM while slamming college. Second, we both agree that college is overpriced. I am now in the last semester of my undergrad and will graduate with loans in May. Something needs to change in this area to make it more affordable, but I don’t have the answer to that at all. I will close by saying college has provided me with plenty of opportunities to practice leadership. Some of those came on the athletic fields where I play, and learn from mentors. Those mentors often went out of their way to help me for free, unlike the TEAM/LIEf scam.

    God Bless!

  62. What the??? permalink
    March 19, 2012 6:02 am

    Chris – for more insight on whether Team is a cult, I would encourage you to read Merchants of Deception. Interesting read, and you get can it as a free e-book. I think there is a link on this site.

  63. switch permalink
    March 19, 2012 6:31 am

    Chris: “I’m not saying college is bad or a waste of money, if u get a job.”

    so the next resort is “building communities” through MULTI-LEVEL-MARKETING??? That is in fact what you do, correct?

    Chris: “I understand your anger, u feel that u got scammed.”

    please fill me in on what exactly you’re “understanding”, here, chris???? I don’t think you’re understanding jack $hit from our standpoint/perspective.

    Chris: “What I’m saying is sometimes things happen for a reason.”

    I would have to agree Chris….I would say this site is one of those “things” happening for a reason.

    Chris: “There are.scams everywhere. .nothing is sound.”

    Nothing, you say?…..Yeah I have to agree with “freedomhaha” on O cringing on that one. Yikes.

    Chris: “I know a lot of people who did well in college and are not doing what they went to school for.”

    So?…And I know a boat load of people who went to college and are doing above and beyond what they figured or anticipated….and have remarkable resumes to boot for experience. Can’t say the same for those who keep living the lie through this dream fantasy called LIEf.

    What’s on their resume?

  64. Former Round Table permalink
    March 19, 2012 8:24 am

    Chris, You said, “Orrin has good qualities, does he not? Why would he preach on integrity if he were a.fraud? He’d be lying to himself. He also talks a lot about servanthood, how often do u hear that in culture outside of church?”

    This is exactly what Orrin wants you to think!! One of the biggest problems with Orrin is that he does NOT practice what he preaches. He is the furtherst thing from honest–try pathological liar–and the furthest thing from a servant. He has carefully studied people and how best to manipulate them, and if that means he talks about God and integrity and servanthood, well it’s just another way to get you to buy his crap so he can still live his millionaire life.

  65. Chris permalink
    March 19, 2012 11:01 am

    Well Im glad Im so funny! The point im trying to make is nothing is perfect in this life and in any business and yes I do beleive there are a lot of scams. The other point is there is controvercy with every leader. Someone will always have an opposing view. I dont believe that Orrin is this liar that u claim him to be. Why go to all this trouble of lying and knowing if people found out his bisiness would be over. He himself says scams will not last. Your also judging his intentions. There is no actions that I see that has convinced me to not believe what he says. Yes some people do worhip him, but that is the individuals call. Orrin tries to inspire people . Why? From this site u say for his own glory. I say I dont know? He says he does it to help others. Has he helped others? There is clear evidence that he has. I find no evidence of deception. If I am wrong then team would fall quickly,because that would mean to me that everyone higher up is in the deception, I cant see that because someone would speak up, u would think. Team is not the solution to everything and it is not for everyone . I discern things from what is said, what is done, consistancy and ask ?s to upline. The answers I received were honest. The reason I dont believe a lot on this site is I talk to people who have been on team and they dont give me the same answers as people on here.

  66. Former Round Table permalink
    March 19, 2012 11:34 am

    Chris,

    I am not going to try to convince you against your will. You want to believe the best about Team and Orrin; good for you. You will have one of three end-results:

    1. You will toil away for years, “improve” your life, and end up with a lot less money, many missed opportunities, lots of time away from family, and no friends outside of Team.

    2. You will end up being financially “successful” in Team, and to keep your success you will have to become just like the rest at the top–lying, manipulating scammers.

    3. You will wake up to the truth, realize you have been scammed, and spend years trying to rebuild a “normal” life.

    Good luck to you. You will need it.

  67. Former Round Table permalink
    March 19, 2012 11:38 am

    BTW, when I left Team I had to go out and find a job. (Yes I gave up a pretty decent income when I left the Team–why would I do that?) One thing I did NOT do was reference ANYTHING about Team on my resume. That would pretty much be the kiss of death when it comes to looking for a job. Prospective employers were VERY interested in my college education though. Go figure.

  68. switch permalink
    March 19, 2012 11:59 am

    ““It’s not about ego. It’s serving other people. That’s what
    Dexter is all about. Serving your fellow man….”
    – Amway Crown Jody Victor

    straight out of Eric Scheibelers’ (ex-Amway diamond) Merchants of Deception page 150.

    I’m guessing you’re not familiar with Dexter, chris?

    oh, how ’bout this one, chris….
    ““It is certainly the opportunity of the century.”
    – Amway Crown Jody Victor•

    \
    Again, right out of the book, Merchants of Deception, page 172

  69. Mesha permalink
    March 19, 2012 8:22 pm

    – Chris: Ah. Where do I begin?

    You say: “first of all team is not a cult or a scam. if u really want to go after scammers, how bout the government. A cult is more of worship of a person or.a.thing usually a religious sect or somekind of mind control”. Then you say:” If its a.cult, what harm are.they.doing?” So which one is it? Is it or is it not a cult?

    You also try to rationalize the scam by arguing that it’s not so bad of a scam because the real scam is college, the government, and on and on. The thing is whether or not college, the government or one’s current job is a scam has no bearing on if TEAM is a scam.

    You said: “If its a scam, i dont believe that many people would be iN this.”

    Well there sure are a lot of people working in the government these days.( which you called a scam above)

    You said: “The problem is.this there are scams everywhere.”

    Is that an excuse to be involved with one then?

    You said: “So tell me? what’s the scam? Your telling me all businesses are scams?”

    No, of course not. Is this site talking about ‘all businesses’? It’s not so much the making money part that bothers me, it’s the lies. The b type, passive, residual income that is talked about does not exist. This is advertised mostly as an income opportunity not a book club.

    You said: “Let’s just say I am totally wrong about team and it is a.scam. What would be the reason they would go to life? They could sell something else?”

    Well they could always pocket more of the money by having their own mlm.

    You said: “I understand your anger, u feel that u got scammed. What I’m saying is sometimes things happen for a reason. There are.scams everywhere. .nothing is sound.”

    So are you admitting it’s a scam? I’m not really sure what you are trying to say here but it’s not really building your case for TEAM very well.

    You said: “Why would he preach on integrity if he were a.fraud? He’d be lying to himself.”

    Chris I understand where you are coming from. That was something that was very hard for me to wrap my head around to. TEAM seemed to stand for pretty high standards and principles. Wisdom was shared. Yeah the values they talk on speak to one’s soul. But that’s how they can get ya. It’s like eating a crap sandwich. You can mix a bunch of great things in with it, add the best bread slices, and make it look edible but at the end you are still eating shit.

    You said: “I understand your trying to protect people from getting hurt. Most people are.already hurt.”

    Is that a reason to let them get hurt more? Talk about insult on top of injury.

    Chris, I really do wish you the best of luck and hope you do not get too hurt.

  70. Chris permalink
    March 19, 2012 11:28 pm

    Your focused on amway too much. Orrin wasnt head of amway. He left amway, and why u said he left is speculation. Your.telling me.that everyone on pc is lying, hard to believe. On scams, Im trying to make a.point that depending on personal experience and your point of view most anything can be viewed as a scam. It all depends how much worth u find out of it. On college..some might find it worthwhile, some not. I totally disagree that u view team as a cult. I dont understand how u came up with that conclusion other than maybe the cds? It is a positive atmosphere and leaders talk about sucess stories. The only thing that seems a little obsessive to me is how many cds some people listen to. I dont agree with that, like your mind and business will fall apart if u dont listen to 8 cds a day. So in that sense they tell u it will grow your business. Sort of reminds me of prescription drug problems, lets give them prescription drugs, then they will get addicted and buy more. The difference is the cds really dont do u harm, but to listen to more than 3 cds a day to me seems extreme. I said earlier nothing.is sound, I meant nothing is a sound investment these days, nothing is guaranteed. Im talking overall people are flawed and anybody can be deceived and go the wrong way. I do believe people can go the.right way.also. I believe team is moving in a good direction and the majority of them have good intentions. There will be sacrifices made to be successful in anything. Obviously your expectations werent met on team. I will be watching as I said before. Orrin hasnt given me a.reason to distrust him. Ive never met him personally. I never fully trust people unless I formed a friendship with that person and they earned it. I put my faith in Jesus and if that is who Orrin follows, I pray that Jesus works through hIm. I dont know if he is a true follower, but nothing he said or did so far in the present time has led me to believe he isnt. People can change for the good and I believe team is a great motivater and has the tools to encourage change and share values and leadership that are so desperately needed in this moment of time. Yet above all for me the most important thing in my life is my faith in Jesus Christ.

  71. freedomhaha permalink
    March 20, 2012 4:34 am

    Chris- You just hit on a very important point in your post when you compared CD’s to drugs.

    “Sort of reminds me of prescription drug problems, lets give them prescription drugs, then they will get addicted and buy more.”

    Ding, ding, ding! That is just what TEAM does make you addicted to the CD’s even though you are losing money! The whole point of TEAM/LIEf is to move CD’s and books to fill the PC pockets. C’mon Chris you stated that yourself. I will be praying for you man I hope you can see the massive destruction that TEAM cult causes and get out while you still have the shirt on your back.

  72. Mesha permalink
    March 20, 2012 5:36 am

    “Sort of reminds me of prescription drug problems, lets give them prescription drugs, then they will get addicted and buy more.”

    Oh my…

    I have a feeling that deep down you may know whats up. Listen to your gut.

  73. webelieved permalink
    March 20, 2012 5:55 am

    Mesha- Great posts! I love reading all the posts of logic you guys bring up. I have a feeling Chris has had too much of Orrin’s koolaid and has lost his critical thinking. He’s undoing his own argument and cannot even see it, so sad.

    Trust is earned not freely given Chris and you my friend are putting all your trust in people you do not know. They have been taught well how to manipulate your relationship to keep you believeing so you keep spending your money and time.

    That was our first and biggest mistake… trusting people before a real friendship was formed. Trust and friendship takes time, but in a cult it happens overnight. It is called love bombing, look it up. While your at it look up commercial cults and read Merchants of Deception.

    Or……..keep your head in the sand.

  74. switch permalink
    March 20, 2012 6:19 am

    We’re focusing on amway too much? Have you really dug into the history, here. Not one bit.

    Chris: “Yet above all for me the most important thing in my life is my faith in Jesus Christ.”

    If your faith told you that team wasn’t the answer, would you walk away? Doubtful. Why, because you’d probably be commanded to settle this problem with your up line FIRST and no one else. My guess would be, after consulting with your up line, he would make you look like the idiot for second guessing, then shove more inspirational cds down your throat by MAKING you sign up for the next biggest package on system. No?

    “We could never go to war, you’d have to check upline first.”
    – Amway Crown Jody Victor•

    Is it clicking yet, chris? I highly doubt it.

  75. Mesha permalink
    March 20, 2012 6:31 pm

    Chris- Just an FYI they tried to get me to listen to 9 CDs a day. Now what possible reason is there to listen to that many CDs?

  76. webelieved permalink
    March 20, 2012 7:11 pm

    Mesha- 9 cds a day, sounds familiar! Only one reason they want you to do that, to brainwash you so you become a walking cd! There is no other reason. They tell you that you need to change your thinking, right? They even taught us if people went off system they quit= if they stop listening to cds they quit. Funny I couldn’t in my brain put those two logical things together, we were brainwashing people with the group’s propaganda and when they stopped listening to it, they quit because they could think for themselves again! So sad.

  77. webelieved permalink
    March 20, 2012 7:12 pm

    Very scary….good thing thought reform wears off when you stop listening.

  78. webelieved permalink
    March 20, 2012 7:15 pm

    And Chris wonders why we are here warning people?

    All my comments are based on my opinions after years spent with Team and Orrin Woodward and his so called leaders.

  79. Chris permalink
    March 20, 2012 10:16 pm

    First of all I havent lost my critical thinking skills. U have to understand I havent been in this business that long and.havent met any of the top leaders personally. You said yourself many of you have met top leaders firsthand. I am willing to see what u see, but right now I dont see it. I said that.listening to that many cds to me seems extreme. On the other hand how often do prof. athletes practice and train if they want to be the best they also go to the extreme. Team wants u to buy cds, well of course why wouldnt they? Heres what.I find some people do things different ways and for different reasons. Doesnt mean its necessarily evil. Is it a waste of time to listen to that many cds a day, to me yes, to others maybe not. To me the business is what it is, but to make it happen its truly up to u. The cds.are meant to move the business no doubt, and the recommendations are meant for people who really want to go to the top so the cds say. For some people that works for.others not. IM NOT IN 100%and am not willing yet to pay more than I think I need to do well in the business. Im not willing to even buy a top 50 yet. However I do like the cds, and the ideals they stand for. So you havent convinced me that Team is a cult, Orrin is a liar and.that team is a scam. I do however agree that it has some faults and listening to 7 cds fora person with a job is nearly impossible and for.me its too much of the same info. So to me if u are willing to spend that much money, thats sort of your fault noone says u have to do it its a recommendation. Thats sort of how businesses work? or am I wrong? If its sending out bad or wrong info then thats another story. As I said before everybody is different and.has different viewpoints and.needs and wants

    . Some like the info some dont. This.business is not for everybody.

  80. Freedomhaha permalink
    March 21, 2012 4:39 am

    Chris- “To me the business is what it is, but to make it happen its truly up to u”

    What is the business is- is making 95% of your downline lose money. If you can prove that false I will personally call you and apologize. I would also like to refer you to my friend on here Mr.Hansen who does outstanding comp plan analysis.

  81. March 21, 2012 1:08 pm

    @Chris
    If you haven’t met some of the top people in TEAM at TEAM well you have, at this blog. Some are here commenting. In fact it’s public knowledge that the current TEAM leadership keeps up with this blog albeit anony-mouse-ly but it’s a fact they do. I guess you can consider you are in the company of former or current TEAM leadership.

  82. March 21, 2012 1:13 pm

    Hey guys do some of you have talks on CDs and do you know if they are still on sale by the M.O.?

    I know some “quitters” whose cd talks ambots are still grabbing off of eBay/CL. I thought it was hilarious. I don’t know whether BWW currently issues them for purchase.

  83. Speak Your Truth permalink
    March 21, 2012 3:43 pm

    Hmm..Shamefully and regretfully there are some cd’s out there; The only sliver of hope is they have disintegrated….in thin air or found their way to the dump!

  84. Finally permalink
    March 21, 2012 6:00 pm

    Chris we are not here to convince you of anything. People on here are sharing their experiences with Orrin personally and team collectively as well as other top leaders. People on here have been lied to in person by Orrin, how can anyone convince you?? Either you believe their stories or not, no convincing necessary. You haven’t been in the business for that long, people on here have experienced team for many many years…….so they are speaking from experience you cannot yet have so again how can anyone convince you that team is a cult? You want proof? talk to us in five years and by then I am sure the stories on here will make more sense to you. You are still in the stage of thinking that these guys got a pretty good thing going for people. And of if it was just about getting information to people without wanting anything in return you would be right. One thing I have learned being involved with team intimately for many many years is they are not about what you hear on cd. You may see some evidence that they practice what they preach but I have personally seen first hand the many many contradictions between what the leaders say and what they do. So again that is not to convince you but maybe to warn you. There are far too many people that have left team for similar reasons for it to be the people that left and not the team. Every leader that left has been labeled a quitter or much worse by professed practicing Christians. If they are who they say they are they would never even mention the people that left in a negative way but that is all you hear about them. If someone leaves something they believe to be wrong and harmful that doesn’t make them a quitter in the negative way. Nor does sharing their own personal experiences anonymously make them cowards. If they are then Orrin is the King of cowards because there are those that know first hand he was the author of the Qrush web blog that trashed Quixtar and the DeVoss family. Of course Orrin is gagged from speaking the quixtar name in public as part of lawsuit settlement but it doesn’t change the fact that he ran the blog and was quite proud of himself while he was doing it.

    Make up your own mind from what you see and what they will not share with you. You will NEVER EVER see actual numbers of what the team does both in annual income and how many join vs how many quit and also how many are making more money than they are putting into the team pot. You will just hear generalities about how “the team is what you make of it’ Or “those who choose to win, win” Or 100 percent of the people that do what they tell to do will make it” All in face of top level leaders filing bankruptcy which is public knowledge, the possibility that Chris Brady filed for bankruptcy and absolutely no proof of income even though they make claims of income continuously. I haven’t even gotten into the fact that even if you build a team to 100K a year income they can take it away for any reason they desire. This is fact, you signed the paperwork when you signed up. And I will just throw out there that you did not read it all or have it reviewed by an attorney. Not a big deal when you get started but a huge deal if you happen to make money. What person in their right mind would ever build anything that is suppose to be theirs when the powers that be decide and vote on whether you can keep it once you have done it………………I would love for team to have an outside firm analyze their contracts and go to team major and report to the community how great the team and Orrins contract that you signed is. They would never nor would they ever take on the legitimacy of their contracts in a public forum. The exact same things they accused quixtar of not even close to how demonic they are. In fact from their lawsuit with q they learned how to rape any team member even more. I heard what the leaders said about q and how evil their contract was………….Teams is worse……… Best of luck to you

  85. Speak Your Truth permalink
    March 22, 2012 8:03 am

    Finally~ Well put…King of Cowards….LOL

  86. March 22, 2012 9:48 am

    @Chris

    Like I said I am glad that you are here reading on and your questions and/or comments are presenting a debating point.

    I would like to get your thoughts on what you think of the
    -North Korean people?
    -Their dear leader/s, and
    -Their way of life – government, ideology, etc.

    And have you read the books 1984 and Animal Farm?

    Just genuine questions, thank you.

  87. Mesha permalink
    March 22, 2012 9:40 pm

    ExAmbot- I remember having to read 1984 in high school. Book didn’t make much since to me until recently. Ha!

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