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Ex-TEAM Reader Q&A: Glad to be Free of the LIFE TEAM

March 26, 2012

Here is the second entry in our new Ex-TEAM Questions and Answers series. This one comes to us from someone who calls himself, “Glad to be Free of the LIFE TEAM.” Like Katie, he was a young professional in Corporate America when he joined TEAM, ultimately spending five years “building the business.”

Joining TEAM

Tell us a little bit about your situation prior to joining TEAM?

I had recently graduated from college and had begun my career in Corporate America. I am very driven and ambitious by nature, so I was excited about succeeding in a big way in that world.

How were you approached to join TEAM?

A good friend of mine called and said he had started a business and thought I would be very interested in partnering with him. I’ve always been business minded and open to new ideas (and trusted him), so I looked forward to meeting with him and seeing what he was so excited about.

What attracted you to TEAM?

I loved the idea of building a b-type, passive, residual income that would stay with me and my family forever. I’ve never been driven by “stuff”, but it was the prospect of spending more time with my family doing anything we wanted to do that was so appealing. I was given a couple Chris Brady business CD’s (appealing to my personality) and everything he said made so much sense that I was hooked. He was also very funny and quick witted, which was a definite plus for me.

At the time you joined, what MLM company was TEAM aligned with? For instance, what products were you trying to sell?

The TEAM was partnered with Quixtar / Amway at the time, although I was told that it was only because of the supplier relationship and the world class business connections that Quixtar had built. I was told that they were two totally independent companies and I didn’t need to worry about it. I remember really liking the XS energy drinks that they sold, although it was always the TEAM business / training system that was appealing to me. I really did think that Orrin Woodward and Chris Brady had invented something totally new with TEAM approach and it would revolutionize how business was done in the future.

How much money was told she could/would make and in what time frame (or implied)?

I was originally told I could make $2-3k per month in 2-5 years, although of course, I would probably be able to do it faster because of all of my experiences. I was also told I could be job optional in 2-5 years…I was told I couldn’t fail as long as I followed the fail-proof system.

Did they entice you with what they were making?
Of course it was appealing to have the option to live a PC-type lifestyle, but I was more interested in the options that that kind of passive income would supposedly bring.

Was their promises of passive, residual, ongoing income promoted?

Absolutely…this was repeated over and over and over and over again. This is the whole reason I joined in the first place – in order to have the ability to create a pipeline income like the cash flow quadrant specified and like Ray Kroc enjoyed. At the time they didn’t have a policies and procedures that made it 100% clear (when reading with an unclouded mind) that this is the farthest thing from the truth. The last time I checked, building a business as an independent contractor cannot create a passive income. And in case that isn’t clear, they’ve put it in writing that Orrin and the PC can take your business away from you at any time and for any reason (“at the PC’s sole discretion”). Is the business willable? Technically yes, but if your heirs don’t build the business the way that the PC says they should, then it can be taken away from them too. What a waste of an “entrepreneurial” experience.

Working The Business

On a scale of 1-10, with 10 being the highest, how hard would you say you worked the system?

I started slow as I had to quit the other activities in my life to focus on building my TEAM business, but eventually I’d say I was working it at a 9-10 level. There isn’t much more that I think I could have done to work my business harder. I was extremely committed and had never shied away from hard work in anything in my life. Plus I really believed in the (fake) cause to bring more moms and dads home from work and help them be able to spend more time doing the truly important things in life (obviously sharing the same benefits that I found so appealing at the time).

Did you attend all the weekly meetings?

I attended every single open for years, except for a couple times when I was traveling for work and there was no open meeting in the area (this was before the webcasts, which I’m sure I would have squeezed in during my business trips had they been available at the time).

Did you attend all the monthly seminars?

I attended every seminar except for one due to business travel.

Did you attend all the quarterly Major Functions?

Yes – even if I was away on a trip for work, it wouldn’t have been beyond me to drive or fly to the major convention even if I had only been able to attend Friday night or Sunday afternoon. It showed my “committment” and proved to my uplines that I was serious about “moving on”. I definitely loved the “free” mentorship this provided.

Did you ever miss any meeting? If so, for what reason?

Only a couple due to business travel (however, I made sure that my wife attended in my stead).

With all this time spent in meetings, when did you go out and prospect people?

When didn’t I go out and prospect people? Just because there was an open or seminar that day didn’t mean that I would have to “waste” the day and not be able to work on my business. I would simply set up plans for lunch time or right before the meetings depending on their locations. Church, work and the occassional date night with my wife or key family event were the only things that kept me from my business.

What places did you go to do your prospecting?

No where was off limits. As Bill Lewis always said, there are two knobs you need to turn to build the business: “the one on your TV and your front door.” I was always ready with an elevator speech and to get a business card or phone number.

How much time did you spend working your business each week? Include time spent at meetings and prospecting.

Typically between 15-25 hours per week (this was on top of the 40-55 hours per week from my job)

Were you aware of websites or individuals critical to TEAM?

Yes, but I never spent anytime on them as I viewed them as a waste of time with a bunch of winey cry babies who weren’t willing to put in the time and effort to make their business work, and now needed to criticize Orrin in order to make themselves feel better.

What was your opinion of the critics?

See my answer above. I was brainwashed to believe everything the PC said as I thought they were men of the upmost integrity.

How did you become aware of websites or individuals critical to TEAM? Did they criticize the critics from stage at every seminar and or just behind the scenes?

I always knew they were present and I didn’t read the websites for a long time, but I eventually started hearing more and more rumblings from prospects who had read things online prior to my coming back for a follow-through (second meeting). It was actually a noticable increase in the amount of people who didn’t want to have anything to do with the business after reading what a negative critic said online. So eventually I read the negative information because I wanted to at least be honest with others that I had already read that stuff and I could prove that it was a bunch of lies. The problem was that it wasn’t a bunch of lies and the legal documents and other third party information made it pretty hard to fight when I actually read and understood them with my own brain. Once I realized that maybe Orrin and the PC maybe weren’t everything that they made themselves out to be, I could finally make sense of things that previously had confused me but my subconscious mind had shut out logic due to my brainwashing. Orrin’s Battle of the Mind CD is very true, but not in the way that I expected it to be.

My upline and the PC criticized the critics all the time both from on stage and behind the scenes. And I eventually learned that whatever was bothering Orrin the most at the time was the talk that he gave on stage that night. Their brainwashing system is very good, so once you’re hooked, most don’t question what they tell you. And they always have an answer for everything. People telling me that the TEAM was a cult didn’t help me get out of the TEAM at all though…that was the emotional stuff I could dismiss out of hand very easily as ludicrous. It wasn’t until later that I finally was able to come to see that yes, it actually is a commercial cult, as much as I didn’t want to admit it at the time.

Did you shun people who didn’t join TEAM?

No, I actually went out of my way to make sure that I treated people the same, whether they joined my business or not. I would even occassionally call some of these people just to catch up (with no intention of getting them in my business). It really bothered me if I saw people being two faced about this. However, I viewed it as more of that person’s problem then as a TEAM culture wide issue. Chris Brady said he had never lost any friends in the entire time he built his business, and I agreed that this was the best way to build the business – being honest with yourself and others.

Were the people you now hung out with just TEAM members?

Effectively, yes. I never meant it to become that way, but simply due to the amount of time spent building our business it happened very naturally. How can you truly build the business the same way you see your upline “putting in the miles” and not have to sacrifice time with others? If it came down to who I would spend time with, it would be my family first, and my outside friends would have to get any scraps left over after my job and TEAM efforts were maximized.

What did you do outside of your TEAM business? For instance, sporting activities, date nights, volunteer work, etc.

Not much. My wife and I would try to have weekly or bi-weekly date nights, but if she wasn’t with me showing the plan, she spent many nights at home.

Concerns About The Business

When you joined, did you know that the TEAM leadership made a substantial amount of money from the sale of tools (tapes, CD’s, marketing materials) and function tickets?

Yes, but it didn’t really bother me as I knew (or believed) that anyone could get there too. I never considered the internal consumption nature of the business though.

During your time, did TEAM join another MLM company or start selling other company’s products? If so, how was this change communicated? Did you have any problems or concerns regarding this transition?

Yes, I was around for both the split from Amway and when we joined Mona Vie after the 6 month non-compete period was over. I heard about the change the night of Amway split and had some conversations with my upline RT and others about it. I received the nasty letter that all TEAM distributors received from Amway that night about Orrin’s illegal stacking methods, but that just served to make me more committed in following these guys. I was concerned, but since I fully trusted Orrin (hard to believe now), I figured he had everything under control. I saw many form letters from TEAM leaders online that we could copy to send to Quixtar in order to terminate our distributorships (I copied the Hubers’ version I believe), although supposedly they weren’t telling us what to do. It’s only that if we didn’t join them, we’d have no “friends” or business left. Not a tough choice. I was not excited about joining Mona Vie to sell juice, but again, I trusted Orrin, Chris and Tim and figured if they said Mona Vie had an unbelievable company and compensation plan, then it must be true.

When did you start having doubts about the effectiveness of TEAM and the business opportunity

Small, internal doubts started creeping in when I didn’t see any of my upline moving on in their business, nor was mine growing nearly as quickly as I thought it should based on the amount of work I was putting in. However, the real doubts began when I saw an upline’s business taken away and given to others in our team, and I also learned that the substance of the Amthrax blog had increased significantly once all of the former RT’s and team office employees started sharing their stories online. I started questioning the PC’s motives for the first time and was extremely disappointed in the “answers” or non-answers that I received to my questions. Red flags began to go up everywhere once my critical thinking started coming back.

Do you know your group’s attrition rate? Upline and downline groups.

During my time with the TEAM I had 1,000 or so people go through my downline groups and I would be shocked if there was more than 3% of those people still around…I would guess that the actual attrition rate in my teams was closer to 98-99%. If I added in the people in my upline that were present when I got started, the number probably rounds to 100% have left.

How many were ‘on system’ (and got off) out of total numbers in group during your time in TEAM?

I’m sure the system counts attrition rate was close to the same as the overall attrition rate. Maybe a bit less since to go Power Player you’re only shooting for 40% of the sign-ups at a minimum to go on system.

What finally pushed you over the edge and made you quit TEAM?

I finally witnessed (or recognized) first-hand unethical behavior from my well respected (TEAM-wide) upline. Their answers to my questions did not add up and I saw signs of defensiveness that I thought was unwarranted if they had nothing to hide. After hearing and seeing others’ businesses taken away and was given weak answers as to why this was the right thing to do, my belief in building a b-type, passive income was destroyed. My whole reason for being part of the TEAM was shattered and I couldn’t trust any single thing any of the PC said and lost faith that any of the recognition I saw on stage was actually real. It also was extremely hurtful once I realized that my “friends” on the TEAM who had often shared how much they loved us wouldn’t actually be friends with us once we decided to leave the TEAM. I finally realized it was all fake and was completely predicated on appearances and the ability to gain something from us. I can honestly say that I never once ever treated someone this way and couldn’t imagine someone doing this and still calling themselves Christians.

Conservatively, how much money did you spend as part of TEAM?

Probably around $75,000, but much more if you factored in the cost of the products that we purchased for ourselves, but wouldn’t have if we weren’t involved in the business.

How much time did you ultimately spend on the business?

Over 5 years.

If you knew about the public records of some of the TEAM leadership — bankruptcies, strategic defaults, and foreclosures — would this have hastened your departure from TEAM?

Absolutely! I left once I personally experienced some of the unethical behavior that have been described on this blog, but as I was so brainwashed, the only way I would have listened to anything outside of this would have been to see factual, unbiased (or at least unbiased in a way that I couldn’t twist it in my mind) information that was indisputable. And if I hadn’t decided to leave immediately after seeing these documents (and actually reading them), at the very least, the cracks in my belief in the leaders would have begun, which would have been the first step in my awakening.

What did you do with all of the tools that you purchased?

I gave them to a couple of my leaders.

Looking Ahead

Given the choice to join TEAM again, would you do it?

No!!! There were some good things I learned through my experiences (like reading good non-TEAM books), but overall I would have traded those experiences for more time with my family, which was the whole reason I joined in the first place.

What lessons did you learn from your TEAM experience?

The biggest lesson was what it is actually like to see wolves in sheeps’ clothing (my opinion based on personal experience) in order to know what to look for in the future and to make sure to never take things at face value again. The absolute hardest thing for me to process in the beginning was the fact that these guys who I had ultimate respect for (due to the massive edification) could be such blatant liars and thieves. I couldn’t imagine standing on stage and saying one thing and doing the exact opposite. In my opinion they are pathological liars whom I believe have actually come to believe their own lies. I also will never immediately discount those who are caught up in cults as I now have personal experience as to how slowly someone can lose their critical thinking skills through a well developed thought reform program. Finally, I learned that if you’re going to start a business, you need to actually measure the results as a business – blind hope and belief is not a substitute for facing the facts.

What advice would you give to people who have left TEAM?

Go out there and truly live your purpose! The TEAM wants to convince you that although maybe it is not the only way, it is definitely the BEST way. This couldn’t be farther from the truth. Move on with your life and make sure you learn from your personal TEAM experiences. And if part of your mission is to stop others from making the same mistakes that you did on an MLM or TEAM LIFE specifically, then by all means, do whatever you can to play your part.

What advice would you give to current TEAM members?

I would strongly recommend that current members take the time to read the LIFE Primer and the Compensation Plan analysis, as well as bring the LIFE policies and procedures to a lawyer to get a professional opinion about what they say. Ask your lawyer if based on his reading of the P&P if you own your own business? Can it create a passive, residual income for you? Ask people questions on this blog and also go ask the same questions to your uplines and you be the judge of who you think is telling the truth. If the TEAM has nothing to hide, then they should have no problem with you asking the questions. If you are made to feel badly about asking honest questions of your upline, or you get a brush-off, then warning bells should start ringing in your ears. True businesses should always be fact based.

Any last words?

Thanks Amthrax for providing this forum! And thanks so much to all of the contributors to this blog…it is amazing knowing that there are many others out there who went through similar (or much worse) things than I did and can live to fight another day! Thanks for caring enough for others’ well-being to provide an alternate viewpoint and hopefully spare them from many years of pain that we all lived through.

Additional Follow-up Questions

Here are some more questions and answers that came from the comments section below:

Did you get started because you were looking to buy products or after you left did you continue to buy them (how long)? Why or Why not?

Actually neither – I was looking to build a community through which products and services flowed 🙂 (Sorry that made me gag.) I didn’t really care about the products and only bought them because I needed to buy from my own business. Once I kept building, I eventually grew to like a number of the products, but not enough to keep buying them after I quit.

Did you sign a contract? Did they give you the P&P’s when you got started? Have you read the Policy & Procedures and Does the PC go over this document in their business training meetings or with you in person to explain it or do they tell you to take it to an attorney?

I signed the original TEAM and Quixtar contracts, and then subsequently the MV contract…whatever was in the starter pack. However, I only gave them a quick glance since my upline didn’t seem to think they were a big deal and he definitely didn’t say anything about me reading them thoroughly (of course this part is my responsibility ultimately, but if I’m honest with myself I don’t think it would have made any difference when I got started as I was so inexperienced with MLM that I wouldn’t have even known what to look for). As it relates to the P&P, I have definitely read the new ones, but I was out before they were written. I would have an extremely hard time believing that they would go over this document during any meetings and I believe most TEAM leaders would give you the brush off if you asked specific questions about it…or at least minimize the importance of the individual clauses (since it’s only to cover themselves you know…). And I would be almost 100% certain they would never recommend you take it to an attorney and would probably discourage you from doing so unless they were to handpick the attorney who was probably already on the TEAM (Vogel gave great examples of what their responses would be).

How many (not registered in your business) bonafide Customers did you have during your duration of your Team/ Lief experience?

Probably about 40 or so would be my best guess…some were longer term customers although most only ordered a few times before dropping out. Of course I was much more focused on building my community than worrying about a little outside customer volume…

Did you get started because you were sold on a ‘business opportunity’ of making money and getting your goals and dreams or Did you get started because you had no intention of making any money and were just looking to ‘join’ a group with a noble cause and to ‘personally grow’?

100% to make money in order to build a passive income. It was only once I started building that I understood the major “benefits” of the personal growth and the “cause”. This, of course, is how they got me to stick around so long…that and the fact that who knows, the next huge leader could be the next person I show the plan to!

Were you ever taught at any training meetings or by your mentor personally on how to run a profitable business? Did they sit down with you to ‘counsel/coach’ you on your profit/loss margins or what your expenses were? If so, how many years were you at a profit or loss and what was their business recommendations to turn your losses into a profit and did they follow up to see if their recommendations were working for you? Did the PC ever (train) on the comp plan and explain what the chances for ever person getting started has of making a profit? Did they ever back up their claimed incomes with documentation?

We had some financial sessions with our uplines, but it never centered on our profits and losses for our TEAM business. It was always centered on where you could cut expenses to more fully invest in the “goose that lays the golden eggs”, as well as ideas of how to motivate yourself to hit your goals (i.e. cut back on coffee for a time if that motivates you, don’t buy something (non-business related of course) until you hit a certain goal, etc.). Advice on how to make your business profitable centered on going Power Player. Don’t you know Power Player is the proven method to becoming profitable? It was this type of mentorship over and over again. Some of the financial CD’s that started coming out later actually were pretty good when talking about non-TEAM investing or ways to look at what money is, but I knew very few people on my team who were in a position to take advantage of any of this real world advice since they were all going broke trying to fund their business. The only training we got on the comp plan was to explain the basic math of how to calculate your low level checks…of course not the full analysis that Brent did on this site. They never backed up their income claims with documentation, but in fairness, I never asked for it either. We were all taught to believe in these guys’ morality and character and there was indirect pressure to not question as I knew this would be looked down upon (and what would it prove anyway since of course they were telling the truth…).

Did they tell you it was a ‘proven system’ and the only way you would fail, was if you quit?

Yes absolutely. This was one of the reasons I joined because I figured that it was a no-brainer. Of course I would make it work if that was the case because I was a teachable student and highly motivated.

Here are some additional questions from @webelieved that Glad to be Free of the LIFE TEAM was good enough to answer:

Maybe I missed this, I was wondering if you were showing 15 plans a month and trying to go Power Player all those years?

Absolutely! Like I said I started slowly in the beginning but showed 15 plans a month consecutively for a long time (years). This was another one of the reasons that red flags started to go up since it wasn’t like I was sitting at home doing nothing and “hoping” that it would work one day. It’s really hard to imagine now the extent of my brainwashing, but many other people in our team viewed things the same way – although most of them probably weren’t as consistent as I was. Over time they dropped out quicker than we could put them in… another non-real business metric by the TEAM as they rarely talk about net business growth. TEAM mainly recognizes people on stage for hitting short term 3 month goals and then whenever they change businesses they will recognize people for hitting certain TEAM levels as if it was the first time…even if they had hit that same level 3 years before in a previous business. The new person is left thinking that the TEAM is exploding, when really they’ve just reshuffled teams and the TEAM is actually behind where it used to be.

It’s kind of funny now to think that I was having a lot of success in Corporate America but couldn’t move on significantly in my business even though the TEAM had such an “amazing” system to follow. It was the same “me” in both systems and I worked each of them just as hard. So if I had success in one and not the other, what was the common denominator?

I also wondered if when you were contacted did they tell you the truth, they were Amway distributors selling Amway products and that Team was the training company?

No they did not tell the truth about their connection to Amway. I didn’t find out that Amway was the supplier in the first two “C”s until we were filling out paperwork and I had to sign the last two pages which were Quixtar related. However, again since I didn’t have much experience from MLM, I hadn’t heard (or experienced) all of the horror stories that I now know very well.

Did anyone tell you up front before you started, that the PC were making most of their money off the Team tools, and that’s where their income and lifestyle claims were coming from, not the products they were supposed to be selling?

No. I was led to believe that their main source of income was from Quixtar, who paid them back money for bring the Community to them. That’s what we drew out to prospects during every plan! After learning from my uplines, I can only remember a handful of times that tool profit sharing even came up when talking to prospects. I didn’t have any idea that the PC made most of their money off the system, not the product flow.

When your upline took you to the Team tool table or sold you a seminar ticket, did they tell you they were making money off your purchase (in Team profit sharing), or was that a secret for awhile?

No. We were taught in the TEAM to only share with your prospects what was necessary for them to take the next step in the business. Too much information would be like getting sprayed with a fire hose and they would miss most of it anyway or become unnecessarily overwhelmed with all that they would eventually need to know. And this would only serve to kill their chances to find their true purpose in life (so we were doing them a favor). In reality, by the time I learned many of the ins and outs of TEAM (well, the white-washed version of it), I was already too brainwashed to do any critical thinking about it. Orrin and Chris were supposedly one of the best, if not the best, in the entire industry, so what would I be able to suggest? I didn’t want to get one of the “Smarter than Orrin” buttons that the PC would trash their critics or third party the newbies with.

Do you know anything about the Team and LIFE structure of pay now, are they still paying team profit sharing on the Team side of the tools, secretly? Or do they say that up front when they are with prospects telling them about the LIFE tool business?

I’m not sure about the answer to this question, so I’d rather not speculate. I know they are definitely still paying TEAM profit sharing, but I’m not sure if they’re doing it semi-secretly or not. If someone asked them a direct question about it, I’m sure they would admit that there is a profit sharing side of the business that is available once you build your business to a certain size.

I also was wondering if you had any customers left of the 40, by the time you left?

I’m not sure of the exact number now, but it would have only been a small handful, if any, at that point.

I am assuming customers had nothing to do with building the business and were not in your line of sponsorship in LIFE?

Getting outside customers was not a focus when I was in the TEAM outside of a few initial months when there was a ton of hype in TEAM about Mona Vie and everyone made it sound like money would be falling from the trees. All we needed to do was flip through magazines with people, pour the juice and watch a video and people would be jumping over each other wanting to get in our community.

Could you tell us more about what customers think of LIFE.

I never had any customers in the new LIFE business, so I can’t comment on what they think of the program or how long they typically seem to stick around once they realize the same information is repeated over and over and they can check out the books for free from the library, or buy them at a drastically reduced price on Amazon.

Thanks to Glad to be Free of the LIFE TEAM for providing his story.

While the $75,000 total cost seems much higher than Katie’s $2000 in 6 months, consider what happens when you calculate things out over the course of five years with an additional person (since Glad to be Free notes that he’s married).

  • $75,000 / 5 years = $15,000/year
  • $15,000 / 12 months = $1,250/month
  • $1,250 / 2 people = $625/person per month

By contrast, pro-rated out to a full year, Katie spent roughly $333 month while in TEAM. This falls very much in-line with MLM Punisher’s estimates on how much it costs to live intentionally for excellence.

If you want to participate, respond to the list of questions here.

77 Comments leave one →
  1. Mike Collins permalink
    March 26, 2012 8:00 am

    That was a great post Glad

  2. Mike permalink
    March 26, 2012 8:08 am

    While I myself have never joined any MLM or TEAM-like structure, I have seen many of my own friends do this and have been to a number of “events” that these friends wanted me to go to. I am glad to say that I’ve never been hurt personally, but it always hurts me when I try to tell my friends they are being flim-flammed. There is one very nice, very Christian TEAM/LIFE member that is a brilliant speaker, so I went to see him do his thing. He always has told me that if I see anything he’s doing to that’s not in accordance with what I think the Lord would want him to do.. I should tell him. I have tried. Hopefully he wakes up soon because I’d love to see him get out of the snare.

  3. March 26, 2012 9:25 am

    Great job! Good read, and a reaffirmation to anyone who was in this person’s position.

  4. Vogel permalink
    March 26, 2012 1:06 pm

    Excellent post! This is a really great series Amthrax…brilliant!

    I particularly liked the reminder to prospective TEAM/LIEfers to have a lawyer review the comp plan with respect to business ownership and the feasibility of passive income. I agree that being a TEAM/LIEf member in not a form of business ownership but rather merely an independent contractor arrangement (and a dismal one at that).

    I would imagine that if a prospect said that they were going to have an attorney review the contract , the recruiter would be stopped dead in their tracks. Either that or they would make an awkward and embarrassing attempt to convince the prospect as to why they shouldn’t get their attorney involved. I can only imagine the feeble excuses they’d come up with…”…ummm, but most attorney’s don’t understand MLM…sign here…my uplline is smarter than any attorney so you should talk to him instead…attorneys are for losers…a winner wouldn’t risk missing an opportunity like this…now sign here…we have lots of attorneys who are distributors…here’s a pen”

  5. Speak Your Truth permalink
    March 26, 2012 1:43 pm

    Glad To Be Free of Life Team~

    Thank You for your honesty and humility. We appreciate you taking the time to share and excellent advice!

    I do have a few more questions though. 🙂

    Did you get started because you were looking to buy products or after you left did you continue to buy them (how long)? Why or Why not?

    Did you sign a contract? Did they give you the P&P’s when you got started? Have you read the Policy & Procedures and Does the PC go over this document in their business training meetings or with you in person to explain it or do they tell you to take it to an attorney?

    How many (not registered in your business) bonafide Customers did you have during your duration of your Team/ Lief experience?

    Did you get started because you were sold on a ‘buisness opportunity’ of making money and getting your goals and dreams or Did you get started because you had no intention of making any money and were just looking to ‘join’ a group with a noble cause and to ‘personally grow’?

    Were you ever taught at any training meetings or by your mentor personally on how to run a profitable business? Did they sit down with you to ‘counsel/coach’ you on your profit/loss margins or what your expenses were? If so, how many years were you at a profit or loss and what was their business recommendations to turn your losses into a profit and did they follow up to see if their recommendations were working for you? Did the PC ever (train) on the comp plan and explain what the chances for ever person getting started has of making a profit?
    Did they ever back up their claimed incomes with documentation?

    Did they tell you it was a ‘proven system’ and the only way you would fail, was if you quit?

    Thanks again, GTBFLT and Amthrax! 🙂

  6. Speak Your Truth permalink
    March 26, 2012 1:50 pm


    LOL~ From my experience, your last one: “we have lots of attorneys who are distributors…here’s a pen”, would no doubt be the winner and they would add ‘we got the FTC attorney/the best of the best (as George Guzzardo used in the video) and they will ride that one out forever!

  7. Speak Your Truth permalink
    March 26, 2012 1:53 pm

    They know that one would stop people from questioning in a heart beat and they will abuse it. ( as with every stop thinking techniques/objection handling) when they find one that works it becomes gold.

  8. Speak Your Truth permalink
    March 26, 2012 2:15 pm

    Another question:

    Based on your experience would you ever ‘join’ any other MLM again?

  9. March 26, 2012 3:18 pm

    I have updated the original post with GTBFLT’s responses to Speak’s initial list of questions.

  10. Katie permalink
    March 26, 2012 3:25 pm

    Glad to be Free – thank you for sharing! I relate on so many levels! I honestly hadn’t factored in the cost of product when I estimated my $2,000 in 6 months that I spent on the “business,” you made a great point about that. I hope that since seeing the light you’ve been able to make up for some of that lost time with your family. Best wishes to you! I hope this helps educate some more people.

  11. Glad to be Free of the LIFE TEAM permalink
    March 26, 2012 7:59 pm

    Thanks so much everyone for the support! Keep up the great work!!

  12. switch permalink
    March 27, 2012 4:53 am

    wow…..$75,000+ flushed down the drain with this. What a powerful post.

    What do ya think, Greg R.? Is this one made up too? What about you hot shot, Henry? Gonna bully your way in here and tell everyone that this person is way off and try and derail the thread by some sorry a$$ excuse? What ya thinkin’ on this one?

    Ummmm….yeah, I’ll make some more popcorn for everyone.

  13. March 27, 2012 10:46 pm

    I’ve added Glad’s responses to @webelieved to the end of the post.

  14. Tomato soup permalink
    March 29, 2012 7:32 am

    I don’t understand how this works. The money that everybody in LIFE makes is coming from the people buying the cds and books to learn how to do this business? Where is the money coming from. And if it’s true that you end up investing more than you make then why would anyone become a part of it? Even someone who is brainwashed will notice that he is losing more than he is making. I was at a meeting yesterday and I was thinking of joining but decided to do some research about it first. Now I have cold feet but I’d still like to understand how it works.

  15. Natalie permalink
    March 29, 2012 12:12 pm

    @Tomato soup –

    If you don’t understand how the business model works, I highly recommend NOT asking the person who brought you to the meeting or their ‘uplines’. Do as much of your own research as you can to arrive at your own decision to give it a try or not. This blog, particularly the sections on the the LIFE Policy’s & Procedures analysis and commentary are a good place to start. It offers much information to which you can evaluate on your own, safe from other’s opinions.

  16. Speak Your Truth permalink
    March 29, 2012 1:05 pm

    Tomato soup~

    I agree with Natalie also check out the Life Primer.

    In a nutshell, The money comes from ‘the bottom subscribers’ (you & the rest,99%) the revenue comes from the subscriptions of books, cds, seminars, major leaderships, and supposed customers (lol) etc.(profit comes from all these sources, doesn’t mean they share it all) which goes into a “profit sharing” pot where they divvy up and pay a few, a pittance, and the rest goes to the Top less than 1%.

    All the real $$ goes to the Top 7 or 8 (Woodward,Marks, Brady,Hamilton, Lewis, Hawkins, Guzzardo) Policy Counsel (less than 1%) who are the only ones making the real money and have the ‘lifestyle’ they continually try and get you to believe to too can have… but your odds of ever getting to PC organically, are slim to none.(see comp plan). They began the ‘Team of Destiny’ in Amway/Quixtar,(sued them for being a pyramid scheme, lost) then everyone moved to Monavie as the ‘Team’ and now have become Team Lief. And from what I can tell their pay plan is almost identical to Amway’s.

    As Natalie stated, Do your research, use good common sense and you then can make a better more informed decision on your own. Good luck, I have no doubt you will understand more after you have done your research.

  17. March 30, 2012 5:38 am

    @Tomato soup
    Seeing that you are first seeking to understand and not just getting swept by mlm hype I give you the props for being on the right track and have the right attitude-to first understand.

    As you read up here’s a brilliant, self-explanatory piece that puts MLMs into perspective. I am sure you will find it quite logical and valuable.

    Oh and do let us know if you have any questions/comments, or even share your findings and/or decision with us.

    Good luck!

  18. Natalie permalink
    March 30, 2012 6:05 am

    @Glad “I didn’t want to get one of the “Smarter than Orrin” buttons that the PC would trash their critics or third party the newbies with.”

    I found this part of your post interesting because I experienced being painted with the “so you think you’re smarter than Orrin” brush.

    I got into a very heated discussion with a family member (who’s involved with LIEf) about specific questions concerning this business model (compensation plan) and the LIEf policy & procedures documents. They became very insulted by my asking why this organization was structured in such a way that the PC can take away one’s business at their sole discretion without recourse for that individual as by signing this LIEf agreement, you waive your right to civil or criminal litigation and agree to mandatory arbitration. That family member responded by saying “do you think Orrin’s lawyers would allow him to do something that was illegal?”…my family member doesn’t realize that lawyers are essentially hired consultants who do what you instruct (pay) them to do within a legal context.

    The blind devotion to individuals (meaning the PC) that the majority of people involved in LIEf never meet in person (and if/when they do, it’s topical) is astounding and unnerving.

    I wonder, Amthrax and other posters, if it would be a fun exercise to blog about in a separate section, reveal, and dismantle the ridiculous automated responses the LIEfers use when they’re met with objections…

    For example, (one of my favorites) when asking a LIEfer if this is a pyramid scheme, the response to that ‘objection’ I’ve seen a lot of folks use is this: “So what if this is a pyramid? Everything is a pyramid. The Government is a pyramid. Corporations are pyramids. The economy is a pyramid. People at the top make more money than people at the bottom.”

    Of course, they neglect to mention internal consumption (pyramid) versus production (of goods, services) and necessary factors of production (human capital, resources, financial capital) that are compensated for and participatory in production and why that little ‘nugget’ differentiates MLMs from real business and economic models. It’s apples and oranges.

    But what do nay-sayers know…they’re all just loser critics and dreamless sycophants of 95% land…


  19. Speak Your Truth permalink
    March 30, 2012 7:55 am


    Great Post!!

    I 100% agree and I have many times thought to collect all those practiced and rehearsed ‘handling objections’, and think it is a great idea!

    It not only shows the ‘auto responses’ (unquestioned and effective mind controlled responses) but also how ridiculous their failed arguments are. The “Life Team Speak and Their Demands Post” (loaded language/cult jargon) is a great post and the method used to create these ‘auto responses’. It shows how they effectively get others to stop thinking and shut others questioning down. People in the environment think in general oneliners and respond to what has been fed and repeated thousands of times.(thought reform)

    I vote for the collections of their ‘handling objections’ responses…Cheers!

  20. March 30, 2012 10:18 am

    I second Speak’s vote for the collections of their ‘handling objections’ responses

  21. March 30, 2012 2:31 pm

    “They became very insulted by my asking why this organization was structured in such a way…”
    Talk of a tell tale sign of a cult…becoming insulted from a question. In a cult adherent’s belief system the cult leader is a pious (really pretend Christian), all knowing, has the reason why the org. is structured that way, knows best, has all the smarts and they, adherents, just trust in that knowledge unreservedly, no one else is like him, within or without. In you asking you dared question this façade of supremacy hoisted upon the blind adherents. Simply you vexed their belief system. Them being insulted is actually a violent thought of anger to that perceived challenge short of shutting you up or down, but luckily constrained to thought form. We are all familiar with phrases such as “before they get to my upline they have to get past me!”, etc. Not all of them are in vain you know. The fact however, numerous instances abound of cult adherents violently inflicting physical assault upon their “enemies” or challengers to their leaders. Who would have thought there exists such violent horizons in seemingly celestial minds until a challenge or such is perceived from an imaginary enemy. As if we need any more proof that these commercial cults are pernicious, evil, incongruents in the midst of society today, they still try to render useless arguments to the contrary. Not to mention what I find as feebly uninformed, unoriginal, half-baked, half-truths, poor & measly attempts at reason by blinded, brain washed mlm cult adherents most often top-down issued by loathsome kingpins, at justifying their continued participation in these cults, in spite of over whelming evidence that these cults have a harmful nature and/or tendencies. You know no one is as blind as he who is blinded by greed. And the kingpins stroke this greed by the constant display to mlmbots of their spurious material wealth cleverly but deviously transferred from the latter without their knowledge. Suffice to say that mlm adherents are a blinded lot, thus, it’s a good enough reason why we are here.

  22. Freedomhaha permalink
    March 30, 2012 6:24 pm

    That MLM gas station is an outstanding read.

  23. Natalie permalink
    April 3, 2012 11:56 am

    @exambot – You’re response was great, thank you. You put into words what I’ve been trying to articulate for some time now!

  24. Speak Your Truth permalink
    April 3, 2012 10:24 pm


    Another amazing and very accurate post! Thanks!

  25. mimi permalink
    April 16, 2012 9:20 am

    Thanks for this info. My friend “tricked” me into going out with her last night. It turned out to be one of these LIFE meetings. I knew immediately that this was a scam, and instantly clammed up. But I didn’t want to be rude or disrespectful so I pretended to agree with whatever they were saying or whatever video that were showing. This article clearly supports my intuition about this whole thing. Now, I’m concerned about my friend who is really believing in all this because now she’s really trying to get all our other friends into it, but I don’t want to go behind her back and bad mouth this whole BS scheme to them.

  26. Speak Your Truth permalink
    April 16, 2012 9:31 pm


    Thanks for sharing you must be a very bright person and glad the information helped you confirm what you already could see. What was the trigger that made you know immediately that it was a scam and could you share how you were “tricked?” I believe this would be valuable in helping others realize what you have. Thanks.

  27. mimi permalink
    April 17, 2012 12:38 am

    Speak –

    My Spidey senses are two-fold:

    1) I am the truest definition of a Doubting Thomas! Honestly, not to toot my own horn, but I think it’s my combination of being a scientist and having street smarts that make me always question anything that someone is trying to persuade me to do. My resistance to having immediate blind faith in people and ideas is a blessing AND a curse. (But in this particular case, it is definitely a blessing.) However, I do have an open mind when it comes to listening and hearing people out, but I cast a seed of doubt until I can either prove myself right or wrong. It’s just the way my mind works. And I don’t care if I’m right or wrong, as long as I rationalized it and can live with whatever decision I make.

    2) Although I wouldn’t consider myself hippie or expert, I am already into self-help and new age philosophies and practices. I’ve read and listened to different types of self-help books and podcasts, and even practice mediation. And regardless if I borrow the books from the library, or download podcasts for free, or attend donation-based/not-for-profit meditation classes, it was all either low cost or voluntary financial contributions, which to be honest never exceeded $10.

    But back to the actual experience. My friend, who I’ve known since high school (we are in our 30s now), told me that she started going to these “self-help/motivation” meetings, and that I would benefit from it. She gave me her books to look through; and just flipping through them I noticed that it was all geared towards business ideas. So I told her, this couldn’t be self-help if all they are talking about is business. An argument immediately ensued. She was using those catch phrases that I’ve been hearing a lot on this blog: “you’re not being open-minded”…”there are other books besides business”…”it’s not a pyramid”…”how could something that helps people be a bad thing” yadda yadda yadda. I just told her that as long as they don’t ask for a set amount of money, then go for it. But if they do, then that should raise a red flag. We let the argument end there. That was a month ago.

    So Sunday afternoon, she calls me and asks me if I wasn’t doing anything, if I would want to go have dinner with her. I said yes of course! She’s my best friend. Lo and behold, as soon as we get into the car, she has a CD playing of that guy Chris Brady. Then she said “Oh, I just have to drop by so-and-so’s house for a few minutes. You don’t mind coming right?” No, of course not, since I’m riding in her car! Listening to this Chris Brady fella literally made me sick. I didn’t like his tone or his rhetoric, and if someone is talking to me in a loud and condescending voice, I will immediately tune out anything that that person is saying. I honestly had indigestion and felt nauseous while listening to him.

    After making our way in and realizing that we were going to stay for this “meeting”, the hosts played that video with that Orrin fella talking about “Rich Dad/Poor Dad” quadrant thing. And immediately I thought this is NOT self-help, or at least my definition of the term. I knew that there was no way out of the situation, so I sat through the whole presentation flabbergasted. It was unbelievable to me how these people claim to want to improve people’s lives but referred to each other as “business partners”, which led me to conclude “business first, friends later”, which is not how I see my friends. Fast-forward to the end, they hand out these “scripts” to read to people when you make a call to “lure” them in. I just wanted to vomit at that point. The host even said “don’t stray from the script”. Seriously? What was even more disgusting was that we had to make calls right then and there and post our results up on the dry erase board. I faked every one of my calls and said no one picked up, so I just left messages. I could not, in my good conscience, ever ask any one of my friends and family to do this.

    Also, the whole time I’m hearing these words “#6 leader” or “guru” or some other leader reference. And I’m thinking…what the hell are they the leader of? I just don’t get it.

    And after all of that, it brings me here today. I, naturally, did my own research about what this company is all about. And after reading that they are using “motivational” tools that promise success and wealth but only after your recruit more friends, I just know that this is not for me. I would rather be working until I’m dead, still paying off my student loans, but at least I’ll be happy and could live with my conscience.

    So thank you guys for this informative blog. I only hope that I could share this with my friend before it’s too late. She is one of the most giving and patient people I know, and to see these people exploit those qualities and feed her ego by telling her that she could be a great life coach and mentor, but by only spitting out the same rhetoric that’s in the book, well, it just makes me sad. But she is responsible for herself, and if she goes full on in, there is nothing I can do about it. I already told her that it’s not for me, and that I would appreciate it if she doesn’t try to persuade me to do it again. And, thankfully, she agreed. But I know she’ll be asking our other friends and her family, which I think is even worse because that would mean they would all be brainwashed too, if they decide to do it.

    Sorry for the long post, but I had to get it off my chest! If members of this “business” take offense to anything that I said in this comment, you’re welcome to your opinion just as I am welcome to mine. I don’t think anyone else on this blog who criticizes this scam needs to justify themselves to the ones that participate it in. My only justification on behalf of the critics is that we all have PhDs…in COMMON SENSE (summa cum laude)!!! Regardless if you had to actually go through this scam but managed to get yourself out, or if you stopped yourself right at the beginning, at least you realized your mistakes and can learn from it. You are already richer and successful just by walking away.

  28. switch permalink
    April 17, 2012 5:44 am

    “…which led me to conclude “business first, friends later”

    bingo! 😉

  29. Freedomhaha permalink
    April 17, 2012 6:08 am

    Mimi- Outstanding post! Your post shows what a real community (Amthrax) can do when working together. The people that post on here do not do it because of any type of financial incentive rather doing it to help people by exposing the lies.

  30. switch permalink
    April 17, 2012 6:30 am

    Totally agree, Freedom. Very powerful post by mimi!

  31. Speak Your Truth permalink
    April 17, 2012 1:46 pm


    Your Spidey senses serve you well!

    It is evident with your experience..The more they say they have ‘changed’ the more they stay the same! I agree they get people to ‘change’ it is just not for the better as I think reflects in your friends behavior.

    For the purpose of the readers your experience shows clearly the deception and bait and switch? Thank you for taking the time and effort, I believe it will not be in vain. I am guessing but I believe it would be safe to assume: You did not have quite the “dinner” menu you were invited to or expected with your best friend. There lies the deception!

    I have no doubt what you say about your friends natural personality is correct but there lies the problem; it “changes” people, (something we all believe, including them) it changes your beliefs (to their all knowing and they have the only ‘correct thinking & beliefs), you stop questioning your gut or natural internal compass, you quit and ignore your conscious because you are constantly bombarded with what you are ‘suppose’ to think or believe because the guru gods said it was so or what you know is wrong and do things you never would do because of the peer pressure of their idea of what a ‘leader’ is, or you will not get the desires they prey on if you don’t; that they convince you, you will get. If you were critically thinking this would not happen; and is why I am of the opinion it fits a cult.

    Based on what you have said about the nature of your friend: Your friend would probably never (prior to the LIEf coaching/”self help” training) would have deceived you into believing you were going to have dinner and then out of the blue, need to drop by somewhere for a “few minutes”; to what probably turned into an hour and half meeting. She has fallen prey to the LIEf game, and is ignoring her conscience because she has convinced herself it is ok to achieve the ‘goal’… through deception?

    The readers should ask themselves is this what you will do? This is what a person learns from the “world class leadership training” organization called LIEf? Why would anyone need to be “tricked” into their meetings?

    All of us here know deception is their common practice but for the sake of the readers they can read your experience and then decide for themselves if it will be worth it, no matter what the ‘ends’ (financial freedom, stay at home mom, helping people. etc) is.

    Not every deception used is this blatantly obvious, there are much more subtle methods you will learn that are used. If they or you resort to or cannot openly and transparently, build “your business”, ethically; then it should scream a red flag!

    Isn’t it Amazing how “dinner” was miraculously turned into a: Then she said “Oh, I just have to drop by so-and-so’s house for a few minutes. You don’t mind coming right?” Common practice; “whatever it takes”; to get you to a meeting.

    I don’t believe there is a person on the planet who cannot ‘see’ this was intentional Deception (whether your friend believes it or not; believe it or not she probably can’t see the ‘harm in this’, she is just following what she is cleverly taught). You may not believe you will ever fall prey or use it but it is subtlely taught (cloaked in the form of Leadership, People & Sales skills) and the business doesn’t build without many forms of it!

    I hope with you mimi, that your friend wakes up to what she is doing before she completely loses herself respect, her time, her friends, and her money!

    Thank you again for taking the time to share your experience and confirm to me why I am here! It is exactly why there is a site such as this, with a collection of people who feel a sense of responsibility to speak out against these commonly practiced unethical and appalling methods & practices used in Team LIEf.

  32. mimi permalink
    April 17, 2012 2:00 pm

    I apologize if this question has already been asked or if the answer is already posted somewhere else on this site, but I’ll ask it anyway. On the LIFE website, under the FAQ section, it states that there are two types of plans: 1) the customer and 2) the LIFE member. So, just based on reading the description, is it possible to just stay a customer and only stick to subscribing to those “books” and CDs? Or is this just a ruse and they reel you in later into selling and recruiting later? The reason why I’m asking is because the aforementioned friend of mine thinks that she doesn’t need to participate any further than just subscribing to the “books”. Is she right? (Regardless of the answer, I still stick to my guns because I do not believe in their version of self-help/motivation.)

  33. mimi permalink
    April 17, 2012 2:21 pm

    Thanks Speak! It’s really unbelievable how people could eat this up. I mean, I have my moments of vulnerability too: I grew up in the Catholic faith, have pledged for a sorority while in college, and I can be a sucker for a good sale at the mall. All good examples of simple yet subtle brainwashing. We are constantly surrounded by marketing all the time.

    You are right, Speak. With this LIFE thing, it just goes to show how people cannot only be easily preyed upon, but how, when you use the right words and catch-phrases, you can turn them into egomaniacs! And once that ball gets rolling, that’s all you’ll ever want to hear…praises about yourself!

  34. Speak Your Truth permalink
    April 17, 2012 3:09 pm


    You are welcome. Your spidey senses are working keenly. To the question on ‘customers’. What is their definition of a “customer?” From experience, I can tell you there is deception involved there also. And as far as your friend being a customer….she clearly is acting more than a customer (i.e. ‘tricking’ you into a “meeting”). Misleading at best or more deception?

  35. Speak Your Truth permalink
    April 17, 2012 8:32 pm


    I agree. I believe ‘everyone’ is called a customer and we already know they are a shady bunch of crooks and because they are banking on never having to prove the customers (low risk of never being caught) they go by the industry definition of what they consider ‘customers’ to remain barely within the law, but all who have been in know that is all it is.

    They call people customers but are they ‘registered’ as a member or as a customer without be attached in anyway to the business? They all see the same plan when they get started. I have no doubt every single one is ‘started’ with the intent they are going to ‘recruit’ nor do I doubt that they have found a way to call them ‘customers’ to cover their butts. It is the way it has always been and will always be.

  36. mimi permalink
    April 18, 2012 9:07 am

    webelieved and speak – Thanks for the clarifications. But no, I am not a “customer”. THANK GOD! Like I said, I was “tricked” into meeting these people, and I put it all together that it was a pyramid thing.

    As insulting as this sounds, I could already tell that the people leading this “business launch” were regular people who are trying to preach about self-help and business without actually having any professional experience or education in either, truly believing in this delusion.

    And yes, believe me, I was disgusted with my “friend”. What’s worse is that she was proudly saying at the meeting that she would get our other friends to join by saying “If you love me, you will come to this meeting.” I was truly appalled. The sad thing is that most of our mutual friends are at very low points in their life right now: divorce, foreclosure, depression – which makes them all susceptible to all this false positivity.

    My friend is convinced that she doesn’t have to go beyond “subscribing” to these books, that it just ends there. She feels she has control over the situation and can walk away anytime.

  37. switch permalink
    April 18, 2012 9:29 am

    ….so they are tricking you in to even going to a meeting, now. WOW!

  38. Brent Hansen permalink
    April 18, 2012 9:44 am

    Congratulations Mimi, you are a genius! Hahaha…just kidding, but you are seriously astute, now help your friend.

  39. Jeff permalink
    May 15, 2012 11:35 am

    Six years and about $75,000 for me also. Working it hard.
    But when I wanted to stop attending a meeting here and there my upline cut off my teamcasting.
    You dont own your own business!
    RUN. I would agree to the 98-99% failure rate.

  40. Speak Your Truth permalink
    May 15, 2012 5:49 pm


    Sorry to hear of your losses and even more sorry you were treated like that..but it is standard for the LIEfers. Thanks for sharing and welcome to the site! 🙂

  41. daisy permalink
    November 29, 2012 5:42 pm

    We were just approached yesterday. We had a “meeting” and they asked us for 49.99. I never understood what exactly they were selling… there was no mention, after reading all these posts I am so glad we trusted our gut!!

  42. November 29, 2012 5:55 pm

    @daisy – Good for you! Do you remember anything they said? Lots of buzzwords like, leadership gurus, 8F’s, freedom, and LIFE?

  43. Freedomhaha permalink
    November 29, 2012 7:20 pm

    Another victory for the truth. Makes me realize that my time here is worth it.

  44. November 30, 2012 2:23 pm


    You was not born a sucker in that minute. Way to go, keep it up!


    I concur!

  45. AlmostIn permalink
    December 1, 2012 8:11 am

    Being a customer gives them the income from what you purchase of the “tools”. By purchasing the “tools”– brainwashing cd’s the more you listen to the more of a chance to brainwash you and motivate you into believing that you can be the leader/pin, that they are a worthwhile/christian community helping others achieve their goals/dreams. The cd’s and chosen books are used to create/transform you into wanting to become involved in attending the meetings, seminars, majors–thus spending more and more of your money until you realize that you are spending more money than you have coming in, especially from a business perspective. This is a game of maximizing your income for as long as they can get away with it in combination of playing on your vulnerabilites. Then it’s on to the next victim/prospect/customer.This is no different than robbing and looting homes. Oh, I haven’t been caught yet so I must not really be robbing anyone and at the same time convincing themselves that the people needed to be robbed because they didn’t need what they have anyway. Their mentality–Too bad/so sad for not keeping everything fool-proofed locked up and away from them, there are more of you to bide their time with before they also figure it out.

  46. SANDMAN permalink
    December 22, 2012 10:37 pm

    I read all these posts from former Team and Life Members. Not once did anyone mention what kind of checks were coming in? I just signed up 3 weeks ago! I asked my upline lots of “But how does This get here and THAT get there? types of questions. Couldn’t get real clear answers other than “Once you get more involved and we get you setup on SYSTEM things will make more sense,” To quote Jason Tingley on Dec 12 2012?”

  47. December 23, 2012 10:43 pm

    “Once you get more involved and we get you setup on SYSTEM things will make more sense,” To quote Jason Tingley on Dec 12 2012?””

    That’s what you call a red flag. Read AlmostIn’s second sentence above.

  48. Melanie Morgan permalink
    December 24, 2012 5:24 pm

    To Amthrax and All You Incredible People;

    May you all be immeasurably Blessed this holiday season and beyond, as you have been for me, in so many ways; in my life!!


  49. SANDMAN permalink
    December 27, 2012 11:08 am

    The only thing I see missing from most of these posts are actual numbers. Like, how big were your checks and how long did it take to get there? I was told the other day I could probably make round table in the next 1-1 1/2 years. Like I mentioned before I’ve only been at this less than a month. Like you guys stated. I am only hearing success stories from people who were already in Team before LIFE came about. I haven’t heard any super success stories from anybody that started just in LIFE and it has been over a year. Any input would be greatly appreciated!

  50. December 27, 2012 2:33 pm

    “I was told the other day I could probably make round table in the next 1-1 1/2 years.”


    “I haven’t heard any super success stories from anybody that started just in LIFE and it has been over a year.”

    Your two starting clues, brilliant! What next?

    You should have asked your sponsors (or whomever the dawg doing well is) to show you income proof/P&L/1040 or whatever they filed for the last 3 or 5 years. These are legitimate business questions, i.e. due diligence. May be you should do that and let us know what happened.

    I never was a TEAMmie. However, Raquel posted some stuff starting here,

  51. Melanie Morgan permalink
    December 27, 2012 3:10 pm


    Thanks for your comments and bringing attention to Sandman’s comments. I would be happy to share the “numbers” and “checks” but that doesn’t tell the whole story!

    It certainly would “appear” there is a decent amount of money to be made, but if you really knew the “true” costs…and not just monetary costs, anyone would run for the hills! But this is something they will NOT disclose. So I agree ask those hard hitting questions and as soons as they “evade”…run, cuz their’s a good chance you will get strung along until you find out only the TOP 7 people are the only ones’ making money!

    But that wouldn’t even ‘toucn’ the amount of “time” you have to sacrifice among st losing the most important things in your life! We were in for 13 years, “retired” in the “business” and the most we made (before taxes) was about $142K, approx. 100K from Team and 42K from Quixtar…13 YEAR 5-7 days a week!!

    And Thousands upon thousands of People: it is ALL consuming, But to get to those thousands you have to churn through so many ten’s if not hundreds of thousands, you can’t keep track!

    Over the 13 years, we probably only made a legit profit 3 of those years, and paid in taxes multiple thousands of dollars!

    So would it make sense to you, why “Orrin’ and others don’t want you to know the whole story? Btw…Orrin “OWNS”…the TEAM “tool-company” ( You own NOTHING, even though they lead you to believe you are “your own boss” and “own your own company”).

    I would say after all expenses (taxes paid, etc.) we were living off a pittance and a lot less than my husband’s job!

    If you are sincere and really want to “see” the numbers and money…email Amthrax. I will share some of that info.

    Lastly, they will “tell” you anything to get you to “believe” you will get to the “lifestyle” you tell them you want. I also don’t know what their (now qualifications are for Round Table) but I believe they have lowered the bar. We were Round Tables but you had to have !00 people on “system” in your first team, 100 people on “system” in your second, and 50 people in a 3rd team on system..That takes YEARS to achieve!!

    Hope that helps!

  52. Melanie Morgan permalink
    December 27, 2012 3:13 pm

    correction…The TOP are the only ones making the “lifestyles” and multi-millions that they entice with. Just because they get a “check” from the LIEf or Team doesn’t mean they are making a profit as a matter of fact I would bet they aren’t since 97% lose!

  53. SANDMAN permalink
    December 27, 2012 9:02 pm

    The more info I have the better. I would love to see the numbers. Are you telling me that after 13 years you were grossing about 142k? That’s not including expenses or time? I checked the BBB all i seen was 3 complaints about products issues and nothing else. I was at an open tonight with Bill and Jackie and have to tell you it started inspiring me again, well a little..

  54. No Team For Me permalink
    December 27, 2012 9:33 pm

    Sandman – be careful….They say Hitler was an inspiring speaker too. We spent years with these jokers. They are very skilled at getting you so emotionally involved that you lose all rational thinking.

    Did they try and tell you it was only $50 a month and 4 Tuesdays a month? Add up all the expenses they will really have you forking money out on…..All 10 of the CD packs currently being promoted on the website (and if you are a leader, you will be ‘encouraged’ to have multiple copies of each on for the new leaders you plan on registering in depth. Add in the cost of the monthly seminars for 2 people, the cost of the Opens, the cost of the 3 Majors, the expenses to get to the majors, the gas for all these meetings, the extra CD’s you will be encouraged to buy. If you are fully in the way they claim a true leader is, you will be spending $5-10,000 a year for years, not to mention all the time you will miss with your kids and all the friends and family you will alienate.

  55. Melanie Morgan permalink
    December 28, 2012 1:31 am


    That was with Quixtar AND Team. Orrin was kicked out of Quixtar and lost a 25 million dollar lawsuit against them with an undisclosed amount settled in arbitration. Do you know the track record of the Team “tool company and the “product companies they were/are a part of?” The original name of the “training” was Team of Destiny, then went to Team, Then Team Monavie (they still are a part of Monavie did they tell you this?) and now Team LiEf. Orrin started in Amway in 1993, then Quixtar (sister company to Amway), then got paid 3 million dollars from Monavie (after being kicked out of Amway/Quixtar) where most of those “leaders” and their groups came from. Now they have moved into Team LiEf.

    Do not be fooled or hung up by those figures nor be impressed, I can look up on my taxes all the data, that was the most we ever made and after expenses as I said it was hardly impressive. And trust me what I know now and from the experience, if they paid me a million dollars for that one year, I still would NEVER go back! Most don’t last, they cannot sustain in an unsustainable business where the majority quit year after year after year in a business where over 95% fail! It is a build and replace. Watch the comp plan, educate yourself on what you are going to be a part of, because I can tell you they will NOT tell you what has been said on this site!

    Btw~There were A LOT more expenses than profit over those 13 years! Then we find out after all those years of work it was in vain and they just took it! We blindly trusted them (BIG MISTAKE) and they have proven to us, without a shadow of a doubt to be untrustworthy.

    As No Team for Me states the worst and most regretful of all was the time away from family and our kids 5-7 nights per week for all those years, 4 long weekends per year, EVERY Tue, 1 weekend per month, sitters, gas, food, travel, hotels, the higher your rank the more time away, and then in the end to have it all stolen! Yep they just quit paying, no explanation, no contract. but yet they still are making tens if not hundreds of thousands of dollars off our group monthly.

    Did they promise you or speak of “passive residual income?” That is what they promised us the entire 13 years and then stole it.” Did they also tell you, you “own” your own business? Well, newsflash, you own nothing and you can have your business taken away for whatever reason they fell like taking it for! READ the Policies & Procedures! Even for you commenting on this site!

    Although we NEVER signed that “directors” contract, we signed a different one that they refused to give us a copy of and at the time said we could not read it either! Later when asked again for it they said we could drive 12 hours to “view it” but still would not be able to have a copy!

    Red Flag and major clue!! Now ask yourself what would they be hiding that they won’t give contracts to those they forced to sign it after YEARS of building our business, said they would no longer pay us, if we didn’t sign it?!!

    Read the Peter’s story, Eric Blomdahl is currently suing them for sharing their story about the truth of what they experienced. What does that tell ya? That was one of her upline and she built the buisness 5-7 nights per week for 6 YEARS and her and her husband also had their buisness profits taken…yep just like that.. “poof”!!

    You can take heed to the warning here or you can get caught up in the false hope and hype, all the surface stuff…but I can tell you things are NOT as they appear..did they mention you becoming “financially free”? haha no freedom..but your choice.

    And from my experience I can promise you, it wasn’t worth it!

  56. permalink
    December 28, 2012 8:47 am

    Whatever happened to Raquel? She had that big facebook thing going on and posted here all the time. Did she fall off the face of the planet?

  57. December 28, 2012 10:04 am

    Is not the poster you posted after the one you speak of?

  58. December 28, 2012 10:58 am


    You know I like to think. I like logic. I like facts and then I like to think some more.

    So let’s factuate here a lil’bit. So far we have elucidated info. that casts a real shadow of doubt on TEAM (and more answers than you have gotten from TEAM, right? Yes equals another red flag on TEAM.)

    More info. certainly does no harm but it’s not the answer that you seek. It’s what you do with what you have so far (ordinarily this is where scam meters inside a head scream “scam” and one makes for the hills faster than a dog’s tail in a meat market). Anywho IMO I think you have enough to act upon, like confront TEAM to acertain the truth – a noble obligation to your curiosity – then let us know what transpires.

    You can’t keep asking us questions, getting answers, and not requiring the same of TEAM. Correct? I would rather like to know what you asked of TEAM at that open and their responses (or when you do).

    Like most anybody here I would hate to convince you of anything. At some point you will have to get their side as well so you can make your own conclusion. Surely you are a person of action?


    Don’t be drunk on what Bill and Jackie, et al say. They count on you being blind to their real hidden intent – forking over your cash up a pyramid without questioning in a scheme where 99% + can’t and don’t make it. They know that no one is as blind as he who is blinded by greed. So they have perfected repeatedly regaling their followers, like you, with electrifying accounts of wealth juuuust waiting to be had by you, much like they have. In an attempt to sanitize this greed they brand it a myriad of things including your dreams, or hang around dreamers and you will get a dream too, etc. I know because regretfully, I learned and used the art (just as it done on me). A lot of us here did.

    Don’t be decieved by placing absolute or any credence to a speaker, that’s naive. Focus on their program. Jim Jones and Mengele were better inspirers than the said Bill and Jackie (proof is in their results, albeit abhorrent). Never lose sight of the intent of their program.

    Be careful. There are people who are deceived, don’t know it and will unfortunately lead others down the same trail of destruction thinking they are doing good. The led, as individuals, will still bear the cost of their decision to follow.

    Don’t be surprised. There are yet others who know the evil they perpetrate but will smile at you as they do it. Some humans can be strange, even stranger when blinded by greed at all costs.

    BBB? That’s a phonie dog that don’t hunt. It’s common knowledge they adjust ratings favorably of anyone who shows them the money. La Cosa Nostra has an A rating…just kidding but you get the idea.

    Be careful, be very careful. Play with snakes and you’ll get bitten.

  59. Jamie Sandy permalink
    December 28, 2012 12:19 pm

    I believe that I have come to a decision. The facts are overwhelming. I just keep asking questions because i am one of those people that feel the need to know everything. I also would like to have as much ammo as possible when i talk to my upline. I was taking a close look at the comp plan and couldn’t imagine how much time, effort and money it takes to achieve Leader status. Then Coordinator, Senior Coordinator, Life Coach, Executive, Double, Triple, Crown and then Crown Ambassador Life Coach (20 Teams of 15,000 PV each! That’s at minimum 300,000 PVs!) Then they tack on additional ranks 1,3,6,12 for how many months in the year they achieved that status. That must take years and thousands of hours to achieve. The example they use for a complete Commissions Bonus Calculation is crazy and they are only using a Senior Coordinator with 3 teams with multiple depth Leaders. His income is roughly $9,000 for that month. I see at least 165,000 PVs there! Enough of that jargon. I also notice they can transfer PVs anywhere they want. I imagine they have a stockpile of PVs somewhere?I’m not upset with my upline guy. He is an honest hard working man. I feel sorry for him because he is in too deep!


  60. Melanie Morgan permalink
    December 28, 2012 4:30 pm


    Excellent comments! I so wish I had more patience and more of your grace.

  61. Melanie Morgan permalink
    December 28, 2012 4:42 pm


    Really? What’s your deal? Are you stalking Raquel or are you just missing Raquel and are that concerned?

    It appears to me you are just instigating, and if that’s the case, ya think you could have the guts to at least come with your real name?

    I noticed you came on another thread with the same question for her, she came back and responded, and then you never came back? Did you fall off the face of the earth?

    Is there anything of substance you care to share?

  62. Melanie Morgan permalink
    December 28, 2012 8:29 pm


    Wonder how long Dan has been in the “system” and what is his point? I hope he has enough respect to come back to have a conversation. Otherwise what’s his point and why the games?

    Another example of some lack of courage and results of that amazing lief changing system.

  63. switch permalink
    December 29, 2012 10:13 am

    “…however most teamers cannot do that. Sadly instead of discussing issues they throw baseless character attacks, keep truthful posts off their blogs and run away from this site where all opinions are allowed.”

    Pretty much. Now that the tables are turned, the true colors come out don’t they?

    Let me know when the LIEf parade strolls through towns across North America, dan.

    I’ll be waiting….

  64. December 30, 2012 7:50 am

    @jamie – what kind of answers have you been getting from your uplink with regards to your questions? Does he know the answers or not?

  65. December 30, 2012 7:53 am

    FYI – Dan has been critical of TEAM in the past. I don’t know why he hasn’t seen the numerous comments made by Raquel.

  66. finally permalink
    December 30, 2012 11:04 am

    Sandman, if an alcoholic goes into a bar he get’s inspired to drink again, that doesn’t mean it is good for him. The words they use to “inpsire” are not the problem……..the problem is that the business model is a lie. And like NoTeam said….Hitler inspired thousands, and I will add that he inspired thousands to kill MILLIONS………Remember he didn’t do the killing himself………

    They picked a fight with the wrong person…………Stay strong Raquel!!!!

  67. December 30, 2012 11:06 pm


    I think Dan wants to claim the title of the resident gadfly. He’s got my vote!

  68. December 31, 2012 7:32 am

    I have no idea why Dan has asked the question about you disappearing repeatedly. Lets just wait to hear back from him. I believe that it’s the same Dan (based on my limited logs of his past comments) until proven otherwise.

  69. December 31, 2012 5:48 pm


    I wish everyone that your fences & gates be horse-high, pig-tight and bull-strong, your dreams pleasant and that you experience realized goals, happy new year!

  70. Melanie Morgan permalink
    December 31, 2012 9:00 pm

    Happy New Year to Amthrax..& everyone else! May your cup be overflowing with Blessings and may you all save more souls from the scam, in this New Year!!! 🙂

    You are all the BEST! 🙂 Cheers to You and the New Year! 🙂

  71. Frank permalink
    January 26, 2013 8:47 am

    How do you cancel a membership? I’ve attended 2 seminars for Life and I couldn’t really believe that I was “suckered” into the provision of “never having to work again”. I just want out.

    I’m an educator, not a business person. I hate soliciting people to say I’m “working” on a leadership project….because that’s not what it is. If I wanted to sell people things, I would have went into business!!!!

  72. January 26, 2013 9:03 am

    Frank – From the membership agreement (back when LIFE launched in November 2011):

    You may CANCEL this transaction, without any penalty or obligation, within THREE BUSINESS DAYS from the above date (5 business days for Alaska residents). If you cancel, any property traded in, any payments made by you under the contract or sale, and any nego- tiable instrument executed by you will be returned within TEN BUSINESS DAYS following receipt by the seller of your cancellation notice, and any security interest arising out of the transaction will be cancelled. If you cancel, you must make available to the seller at your residence, in substantially as good condition as when received, any goods delivered to you under this contract or sale, or you may, if you wish, comply with the instruction of the seller regarding the return shipment of the goods at the seller’s expense and risk. If you do make the goods available to the seller and the seller does not pick them up within 20 days of the date of your Notice of Cancellation, you may retain or dispose of the goods without any fur- ther obligation. If you fail to make the goods available to the seller, or if you agree to return the goods to the seller and fail to do so, then you remain liable for performance of all obliga- tions under the contract. To cancel this transaction, mail or deliver a signed and dated copy of this Cancellation Notice or any other written notice, to LIFE Attn: CS-Cancellations, 4072 Market Place, Flint, Michigan 48507, NOT LATER THAN MIDNIGHT of the third business day following the date of this Agreement (the fifth business day for Alaska residents).

    I would also contact LIFE’s Member Services Department at

  73. Freedomhaha permalink
    January 26, 2013 9:16 am

    Frank- I hope that you would stick around here for a little bit to tell your story. I know that it will help others that are in the biz, or prevent others from starting it.

  74. Mike permalink
    August 21, 2013 6:30 pm

    Did you start to make any money or break even every month before you left? I joined LIFE six months before I quite spent $100 to join and another $100 every month for materials. After about three months I started getting $5 per month back. After the SIXTH month I was told I had to renew my YEARLY membership and could do so for a limited time for only $20.
    I joined because of a friend of mine had already convinced a lot of our friends to join. The first meeting I went to I thought, this is a cult, but stayed because I was there with a college professor and a grad student (people I trust) and they were sold.
    When I left I called everyone that I talked to about joining and explained why. I think they all left but I still have friends who joined before me (convinced me to join) doing nothing but giving money to Orin.

  75. Melanie Morgan permalink
    August 24, 2013 1:00 pm


    Thanks for sharing. Keep documents and file a complaint with the BBB if they give you a run around. Did they give you a copy of and go over the Policies & Procedures with you? They clearly didn’t tell you of their return policies. What did they tell you when they got you started, was it ‘sold’ as a “business opportunity?” Sounds like you were led to believe it was something different than you expected. Do you feel they mislead you? Good luck with your return.


    Sadly, it is why most join and the biggest reason they stay as long as they do; because they target people who do “trust” them (friends & family). They teach who and how to contact, they work real hard at it, even though it is not geuine, but without it ihey have nothing, It turns into manipulation, It is whatever-it-takes to keep you believing, we learned first hand, the hard way they are not worthy of “trust” and their “word” is “worth-less”… TRUST is abused and breached, in the worst way.

    Oh man the return on your investment, sorry….what a joke. But it’s designed intentionally, TOP heavy, the masses have to lose to pay for the top but even the TOP must be faking it.

    Glad you saw through it though.Apparently there is A LOT of people like you and Frank, ( no surprise), the majority do quit when they firgure it out they have been mislead and see the losses.. Even the PC ( Bill Lewis) must not be living in “finacial independece” can’t even afford to pay his house taxes after almost 2 years or is deliberately not paying them, that would be stupid. They either are knowingly misleading with their “pay for everything in cash lifestyle” ” they are finacial free”, “responsible leaders” and or dishonorable hypocrites, irresponisble and living above their means either way, that is NOT how they lead others to believe they live. (Again misleading others). Perhaps they ought to DO what they “teach”, but we already know, nothing is as it seems Mike, but they are skilled in putting put up a front.

    Good luck to you both!

  76. Truthseeker permalink
    March 14, 2015 8:40 pm

    This was very eye opening , and as someone who was recently involved , this information allowed me to escape. I had no idea that my upline was making money from my purchases of subscriptions and tools and explains the pressure I received to do so. I also noticed that my upline had very little time to mentor me after I started my subscriptions. Thank you very much for reaffirming my thinking!

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