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Ex-TEAM Reader Q&A: I QUIT (and glad I did)

April 2, 2012

Here is the third entry in the Ex-TEAM Questions and Answers series. Thanks to long-time commenter, I QUIT (and glad I did) for participating.


Tell us a little bit about your situation prior to joining TEAM?

I will keep the identifying details to a minimum but still try to get the point across. I had been doing the usual working for a living thing and just wanted more. I didn’t know what I could do differently or how but I knew I wanted more.

How were you approached to join TEAM?

I was approached by a co-worker. I already had some respect for him due to his performance on the job so when he approached me about a business idea I figured it wouldn’t hurt to look. He brought up some great points but what really nailed me to the wall was a tape he left with me. By the time I finished it, I was convinced I had a “vehicle” that could get me where I wanted to be.

What attracted you to TEAM?

That’s easy. I was bamboozled by the “dream”. I totally bought into the rhetoric of “You only get what you picture.” “If its to be its up to me.” “If the dream is big enough the facts don’t count.” These are all very true statements, and I thought the Team was the means to implement these principles so I could achieve what I wanted.

At the time you joined, what MLM company was TEAM aligned with? For instance, what products were you trying to sell?

Technically the Team did not exist yet. We were affiliated with Amway. (GASP) The “Team” moniker was several years away at that point.

How much money was told she could/would make and in what time frame (or implied)?

I always heard financial independence in 2-5 years. I figured the large time frame gap was to account for the fact that all of us have a different definition of what would be considered “financial independence”.

Did they entice you with what they were making?

Oh yeah. The thing is- none of the people I worked with in my upline were big yet! They kept pointing to this Orrin guy who was job free, no mortgage etc. etc. Yup, I was really working that dream thing big time. I had to, its all there was!

Was their promises of passive, residual, ongoing income promoted?

Yes. That was the whole point of the business from the monetary perspective. “Pay now, play later” was the saying. Work hard now so you can run the beaches of the world tomorrow. Boy did that turn out to be a lie. Read your own P&Ps Teamunists, you’ll see I’m right.

On a scale of 1-10, with 10 being the highest, how hard would you say you worked the system?

During the active years I fluctuated between 7 & 9. Five and six nights a week. Heck, sometimes seven! 15 plus plans a month. Power Player over and over. Yeah we pounded it hard. Killed a couple vehicles in the process.

Did you attend all the weekly meetings?

Yes. Never missed cuz it was a requirement to qualify power player.

Did you attend all the monthly seminars?

Yup. Same as above.

Did you attend all the quarterly Major Functions?

Again yes. Same as above.

Did you ever miss any meeting? If so, for what reason?

During the active, committed, building with belief years I only missed one due to being sick as a dog.

With all this time spent in meetings, when did you go out and prospect people?

I contacted everyone. I “cold contacted” too. After all, I burned through my list of known people in the first year or so.

What places did you go to do your prospecting?

I contacted everywhere. I learned some techniques from a guy named Bo Short that made it easy. Its all about expanding the team! Everyone is a potential victim er I mean team member!

How much time did you spend working your business each week? Include time spent at meetings and prospecting.

Man if you include drive time it was as much as 35-40 hrs a week after I flushed the job. Before that it was an average of 20-25. That includes meeting time, plans, contacting etc.

Were you aware of websites or individuals critical to TEAM?

Oh yeah.

What was your opinion of the critics?

I felt that some of their experiences were probably accurate since every team in the overall biz operates a little differently but I didn’t give em much thought.

How did you become aware of websites or individuals critical to TEAM? Did they criticize the critics from stage at every seminar and or just behind the scenes?

I found this site after I had left the biz. I was just googling around one day and ended up here. I was amazed to find other former members with similar experiences and feelings.

Did you shun people who didn’t join TEAM?

I didn’t shun people but I certainly didn’t spend time with them cuz I was too busy building the stupid thing!!

Were the people you now hung out with just TEAM members?

I must admit that 98% of the people I hung out with were Team affiliates. That’s just how it ends up. It wasn’t a conscious decision.

What did you do outside of your TEAM business? For instance, sporting activities, date nights, volunteer work, etc.

I have a specific hobby that I absolutely LOVE and I will never stop. (Yes it’s legal) But I won’t disclose cuz it will probably identify me to the guru putzes and I don’t feel like dealing with them in a legal game. Their pockets are much deeper than mine!

When you joined, did you know that the TEAM leadership made a substantial amount of money from the sale of tools (tapes, CD’s, marketing materials) and function tickets?

No. That idea never even came to mind. If I had, things would have been different. Believe me.

During your time, did TEAM join another MLM company or start selling other company’s products? If so, how was this change communicated? Did you have any problems or concerns regarding this transition?

Yes. I was there when the whole Quixtar fiasco went down. The lawsuits. The counter law suits. This is when Orrin decided that Q was no longer a viable business vehicle so Monavie was promoted instead. It has a better comp plan he said. The products are great he said. You’ll make more money he said. The product pricing is better than Q he said. It all boiled down to Q wanted their share of the Team tool system and Orrin and co. didn’t want to give any up. That of course is only my opinion. I could be wrong but I don’t think I am. Again, just my opinion.

When did you start having doubts about the effectiveness of TEAM and the business opportunity

The doubts began to creep in when I started to notice rewards being given to people with less in the results or performance arenas. You see, Orrin always said its a performance based system. Those with the results get the rewards. By rewards I mean of course money or opportunities to speak at various events. (opens, seminars, men’s leadership etc.) By speaking at opens or seminars one was paid. The better your performance the more opportunities there were to speak. Speaking also gave you more credibility with your group so it was a good thing all around. One issue that I noticed happening very frequently was individuals with lower performance numbers getting stage time at men’s leadership. I know what their numbers were cuz they were in my group and I kept tabs on those numbers! I began to notice that these same individuals were spending lots of time schmoozing the upline. I prefer to call it ass kissing but I won’t. I don’t roll that way. Never have, never will. If my performance ain’t enough then I don’t want or need it.

Another thing that caused my belief to go backwards was when the tool system started having too many specialized packs added. These packs had quite a few duplicate cd’s. Sometimes several packs had the same one or two cds along with others. This was just a way to generate more tool money. Updating the recordings with minor changes such as title or number or a small deletion was another pisser. Now my old stock is obsolete and I need to buy more for my trunk?! It got out of hand.

Do you know your group’s attrition rate? Upline and downline groups.

I can’t assign a definite figure but lets just say it was way high. Build and replace, build and replace. That was the story throughout my entire organization.

How many were ‘on system’ (and got off) out of total numbers in group during your time in TEAM?

I don’t recall the exact number and I pitched all that crap long ago but I will say that my system count definitely dropped.

What finally pushed you over the edge and made you quit TEAM?

There were two things…

#1: When the shift to Monavie happened and I had gotten the details on what the plan should look like and how it was all being put together, and after attending the first major with MV, I realized what a joke the whole thing had become. I won’t try and sell some overpriced, miracle juice. No thanks.

#2: The strong arm tactics that were forced on us and our remaining team by our PC at the end of the 6 month period were unreal. Illegal actions were being encouraged to expedite the re-alignment process into MV. We refused to cooperate and managed to keep our second leg intact and in the original LOS at least. I can’t say the same for our first or primary leg. Boy did that one get butchered. Suffice it to say that a lot of folks got royally screwed. All those years of work down the toilet. Wow. So much for character and integrity. What a farce. Screw you guys, I quit.

Conservatively, how much money did you spend as part of TEAM?

Holy crap I can’t even begin to guess. Including ALL expenses incurred while STP’ing, I averaged at least $1000.00 a month. Conservatively.

How much time did you ultimately spend on the business?

That number would be astronomical. If you factor in all activity that would be considered biz related, the number would be 40 plus hrs. a week. Now multiply that times 400. I’m getting that number from conservatively adding up the number of weeks I built it. The number is higher but I’m allowing for the times when I didn’t work as hard, sickness, family obligation, hobby pursuit etc.

If you knew about the public records of some of the TEAM leadership — bankruptcies, strategic defaults, and foreclosures — would this have hastened your departure from TEAM?

ABSOLUTELY! How can you take financial advice from someone who has failed financially? Check the fruit on the tree is what the “leaders” always said!

What did you do with all of the tools that you purchased?

Every tape was left in the attic of the house I sold. Wonder what the new owner did with all five boxes of em? Every cd was gleefully thrown in a dumpster. Every book written by Owen was gleefully thrown into the same dumpster. I kept the majority of the books and have since re-read many of them. Great stuff if applied in a more productive environment!

Given the choice to join TEAM again, would you do it?

There is a better chance of me voting liberal than of me joining that joke again.

What lessons did you learn from your TEAM experience?

MLM is a cruel business model. You can make a lot of money if you are willing to set aside morals. You are profiting from the losses of your group. PERIOD. Argue all you want but when you break it down that’s where you end up.

What advice would you give to people who have left TEAM?

Stay away. Far away. Not only from Team but MLM in general. Use the positive principles you learned from the “system” in a real, honest, productive environment. There are many other, better ways to pursue greatness.

What advice would you give to current TEAM members?

Get out now. Cut your losses and leave. If you are thinking you can go big in Team while maintaining true character and integrity you’re wrong. Hasn’t this website raised enough questions to at least create doubt in your mind?

Any last words?

I wonder if anti-amthrax will have anything to say about me? What names will he call me? Suggestion: A Quitter. Cuz I am. AND I’M GLAD I DID!


If you want to participate, respond to the list of questions here.

83 Comments leave one →
  1. Freedomhaha permalink
    April 2, 2012 6:48 pm

    Thanks for sharing. My hope is that people read this story about someone who reached a much higher level they can ever reach and it shows them the truth. I second that quitting was a great decision!

  2. Considering joining Team permalink
    April 3, 2012 6:14 am

    Read this which I read today…Why is this a Bad thing??

    http://orrinwoodwardpress.typepad.com/my_weblog/2012/04/life-claude-hamiltons-team-growth.html

  3. Speak Your Truth permalink
    April 3, 2012 7:10 am

    I Quit (and glad I did)

    Thanks for your straight forward comments on lessons learned, advice and for the laughs! 🙂 I too wonder what the new owners did when they discovered those 5 boxes of useless tapes in their attic. I doubt they thought; oh look, honey… Bonus! No they probably had to have the house exorcised after they found and burned them!..lol. It is sad and I am sorry for all who lived the lie, your financial losses and especially the time lost away from your family!

    Thanks for sharing and contributing more of your time to help others see, that what the euphoric fake, illusionary ‘dream’ world they paint and promise for everyone, is not even close to the reality of what more than 99% will really experience.

    There seems to be a common thread with everyone’s painful loss of freedoms; financial losses, lessons, and advice and most obvious there is a huge contradiction in what they (falsely) promise in the ‘business’ vs. the reality of everyone’s experiences. It is a cruel industry (as you so succinctly state).

    The real and true freedom begins when you can reflect and enter the real world, see the facts (comp plan, bankruptcies, P&P, defaults, self-proclaimed awards, etc, which shows their real character), when you can snap out of it, ‘wake up’ and ‘quit’…the delusional ‘make believe’ fake world and ‘quit’ believing the lies of the Team LIEfers/ MLM world.

    The ‘positive’… You will experience; is when you stop the insanity!

  4. Natalie permalink
    April 3, 2012 12:10 pm

    @Considering joining Team – perhaps you can read this blog, particularly the ‘LIFE primer’ seeing as you are ‘considering’ joining Team (or LIFE, which is it?) and then come back to this post with meaningful discussion instead of instigating the ‘loser critics’ with naught but a link to one of Orrin’s many, redundant, blogs.

    It was a nice try though… 😉

  5. Speak Your Truth permalink
    April 3, 2012 1:39 pm

    Considering joining team~

    Natalie’s advice would be the best for you, and hope you respond to it. That is if you indeed, are just “considering joining team”. but I have a hard time believing that.

    Knowing what I know about working with, observing someone not ‘in yet’ and how they respond to the ‘business’; No one does what you have, nor does it make any sense. Who would show up on a whistle blowing website, (with this content) with many who have been royally screwed by the Team Pc and provide a link, ask the question of us you have?( I will give you the benefit of the doubt for now, maybe you haven’t read a word on here).

    Also, knowing ‘how the business and scheming PC works’..it is highly unlikely, anyone would bring a link to Orrin’s website for others to ‘link’ to and answer your question. I could be wrong, but I am not buying it.

    Quite frankly I don’t care what the link says; we have witnessed and heard enough stories, testimonies, spinning, lies, coerced edification, with (no negative) truth allowed, deception, and propaganda to last many life times.

    The PC is paid millions to puff up their image and is necessary considering the nature of the scam. They require and demand ‘edification’ from everyone.

    It builds unquestioning and blind trust, eliminates any research (they hope) and stops any questions about their ‘character’ and creates idolatry? It is ‘pure’ peer pressure… done through modeling, and downright telling you to only ‘edify’ and say nice things about them even if you have never met them or ever known them you just repeat what you hear without anyone earning that trust or proving they are who they say they are!

    It is to be expected, because the business isn’t viable on its own merit nor do they deliver on their promises. Do yourself a favor, Read the blog, (see comp plan & the Lief P&P). It takes ‘edification’, deception, and puffery, to suck people in. They require it, even if it is vanity or not the whole truth.

    Read this link and the rest of the LIEf Primer: https://amthrax.wordpress.com/2011/12/27/arthur-carmazzi-the-truth-behind-leadershipgurus-net-orrin-woodward-and-chris-brady/

    But remember no opposing views allowed on any of ‘their’ many google gamed websites… Why would that be?

  6. Former Round Table permalink
    April 3, 2012 1:56 pm

    Considering joining Team:

    I agree with Natalie and Speak Your Truth. I would also point out that these “record-breaking” events are defined by Orrin himself. If Life has only been around since November 2011, I guarantee that ANY attendence at any event in Nov 2011 through Oct 2012 will be considered “record-breaking” for the Life business.

    The point is that the definitions and rules change according to what Orrin wants you to believe. Get it?

  7. webelieved permalink
    April 3, 2012 3:42 pm

    Not sure how anything can be record breaking when one is taking credit for work that was done 10-15 years ago in Amway? Or for the teams that have been given to some leaders who didn’t build them? seems like a sham to me…… Let’s open the LIFE l.o.s. publically and get to the TRUTH.

  8. Brent Hansen permalink
    April 3, 2012 3:46 pm

    @ I Quit (and glad I did), Thanks! This statement is spot on,

    ” MLM is a cruel business model. You can make a lot of money if you are willing to set aside morals. You are profiting from the losses of your group. PERIOD. Argue all you want but when you break it down that’s where you end up.”

    If people were only educated about the truth, it would stop a lot of bad situations from happening.

  9. Finally permalink
    April 3, 2012 5:56 pm

    Great points and I am with Speak, this person is not “thinking of joining team” they are in and trying a different tactic to give credibility to Orrin. I also have been around too long to fall for it………..Why is this a bad thing they ask… PULEEEEEEEEZE

  10. No Team For Me permalink
    April 3, 2012 8:39 pm

    Anyone read Teri Brady’s facebook post today where she said her friend Anna Huber just moved into a house down the street from her? Is that in NC? why would Huber’s move to NC, if so? And Teri didn’t know Huber’s were moving – it was a surprise? aren’t they supposed to check upline before making a major decision. How could you move to the same street as the Brady’s and not tell them? anyone have any info?

  11. Chris permalink
    April 3, 2012 9:23 pm

    It seems to me a lot of the people on this site go after Orrin more so than anybody. I know that.a lot of people on team love him. I myself respect him, but i dont love him like so many others. So Im a little confused, it seems to me u have a lot of hatred against him. Ive never met him personally, his speec hes
    are encouraging, uplifting, and most of them have the theme of integrity with them and him helping others succeed. So how did u come up with the conclusion that Orrin is basically evil. Most all the books that come down in life have mentioned integrity. Thats why Im still in. I havent seen or heard anything that goes against Orrins integrity. Im still not convinced to quit, but am still not totally sold out to team. So how did u come.up to the conclusion? that Orrin is not who he says he is? What is Orrins agenda? and if he is doing wrong things, telling lies etc. What are.these lies and.wrong doings. I m looking for specific answers referring to Orrin not assumptions or speculations. Because honestly I m not convinced that Orrin is this horrible person u make him out to be. Give me a reason why ?
    Im no judge… but I believe he stands for good values…and brings encouragement to others to pursue their dreams no matter what they are. Are these bad?

  12. I QUIT (and glad I did) permalink
    April 4, 2012 3:55 am

    @ Chris- Dude… every question you’ve asked has been answered a multitude of times throughout this entire site. You simply need to search for those answers and in the process you will truly learn why we say the things we say.

  13. switch permalink
    April 4, 2012 6:10 am

    Wow, my jaw is dropped…..very powerful post, I QUIT. Thanks for sharing.

  14. April 4, 2012 10:41 am

    @ I Quit (and glad I did)

    Thanx for sharing!

    “MLM is a cruel business model. You can make a lot of money if you are willing to set aside morals. You are profiting from the losses of your group. PERIOD. Argue all you want but when you break it down that’s where you end up.”

    For me just like for Brent this statement captures the evil essence that is all of MLM, period!

    There it is, to go to the top of an MLM pyramid one has to be a liar, manipulator, a phoney and consistent at it.

    Secondly, 99%+ of MLM adherents in a downline don’t make any money. This fact is not lost on MLM bosses and M.O. kingpins (and some of their henchmen too). But they carry on a by design, two pronged pillaging attack on their downlines’ finances through purchases of often overpriced MLM wampum and MO tools-cd’s, books, endless pay-your-own-way-in meetings, etc. Thus, the mlmbots’ expenditures (really losses) is what translates into incomes for the mlm bosses and kingpins, is it not? It follows therefore, MLM is a vehicle that transfers wealth from the hapless, hoodwinked majority through devious means to the MLM bosses and their counter parts in crime the MO kingpins. How can this be called upright, moral, integrity, own your own business, capitalism…?

  15. April 4, 2012 10:45 am

    For the benefit of Chris in your endeavor to find the truth, from the foregoing it’s therefore self evident why these kingpins qualify as evil. With full knowledge of their actions, they propagate a system that entices, entraps and ultimately leads many people to financial losses by design, ensuring the spoils to themselves and their chosen ones.

    Question 1. What else would you have us call such a system if not evil? What about it’s lords?

    One more thing your questions, though endearingly candid, are reflective of laziness on your part. Instead sit up and read for yourself, this and other sites. Are you not aware that he who is convinced against their own opinion… It’s best to arrive at your own conclusions instead of prodding us to provide you with answers you will then use to justify of Orrin’s evil or lack of thereof.

    Question 2. Actually, after you have read some, instead why don’t you tell us why Orrin is not evil?

    In your answers I would appreciate a response to both my questions. Thanx.

  16. April 4, 2012 11:34 am

    NTFM, yes the Hubers did move to NC. What were their options? They had to move somewhere.

    -They filed bankruptcy. I would expect there to big orange sticker on their front door anyday now. The house is not for sale or for rent. Yet another example of team integrity.

    – They are telling people that “their downline is not getting them any new recruits in the team saturated flint area.” They need a new downline that can scam better than their current one can. They have no growth happening under them. You would not believe the things that Mark says about the longloise, goldens, and wrathalls behind there backs……. It’s truly comical then to watch these guys worship the hubers all the while the hubers are talking badly about them behind the scenes.

    – They got kicked out of their church and lost numerous people off their team because of it. On a side note I’m sure that Flint just let out a huge sigh of relief now that they are gone.

    – The Hubers don’t do anything without checking with the brady’s so there is no way that teri did not know they were coming. Truth be told the brady’s probably had to pay to get the Hubers moved down there. The Hubers are broke.

  17. Natalie permalink
    April 4, 2012 11:58 am

    @Chris – Thank you for sharing your thoughts on this board.

    As other posters have mentioned, the only real conclusions that should matter to you are the ones you arrive at through your own research, analysis, meditation, whatever.

    I’ll share with you a personal experience that pushed me to learn more about 1) this business model (separate from the hype and non-business related personal development products you get from stage/books) and, 2) the top proponents of said business model (i.e. the PC of LIFE MLM) and how they run this business.

    About the time LIFE was ramping up to launch, Orrin was blogging about such and how amazing, cutting-edge, life-changing, this opportunity was. I posted a question to Orrin’s blog in hopes of a meaningful response. That question was (in short), “if this business opportunity is so wonderful, than TEAM/LIFE should have no problem making its financial statements available to members”

    A complete set of financial statements (Balance Sheet, Income Statement, Statement of Cash Flows), depending on the level of analysis disclosed by the accountant who prepares them, can tell you everything you need to know about how a business is being run by the manager. The manager in the eyes of LIFE members would be the PC, but after closer analysis, I’m confident you’ll find that the business is run entirely by Orrin.

    Needless to say, my question didn’t get posted for others to see…unlike this blog, where dissenting voices are welcome.

    If Orrin has nothing to hide, if he is a man of integrity, why won’t he share crucial information to potential business partners (i.e. LIFE members). Publicly traded companies are required by the SEC to publicly make available their financial statements so that investors can make an informed decision whether to invest in that company or not. As a potential business owner, wouldn’t you want to know if a company is a) viable, b) sustainable, and c) equitable before you invest your hard earned cash into it?

    If LIFE is such an amazing, legitimate business opportunity as they hype it to be, why do they need to control their financial information so strictly?

    Your up-line will tell you, ‘yeah, but we’ll have an income disclosure statements once LIFE has been in operation for 6 months’.

    Remember though: income disclosure statements (IDS) are not the same as financial statements and it will tell you nothing about how a MLM company is managed by its owners. Financial Statements account for how cash moves though the business and are supported by source documents (like cheques, invoices, contracts, etc.) IDSs ‘disclose’ potential…important word, POTENTIAL…income that MAY (not guaranteed) be earned, and, as income disclosure statements use averages of incomes distributed they are not exactly accurate but are near enough to satisfy the FTC. IDS also do not account for the personal expenses of earners in the MLM structure which inflates the actual net income (profit=revenues – expenses) realized by the member.

  18. Freedomhaha permalink
    April 4, 2012 3:30 pm

    Team Deception- You hit on a lot of really important points. It is not a coincidence that TEAM leaders hop around the country to hit new markets. It sounds like the Michigan market was on to their tricks. I wish we could warn the good people of the North Carolina about the huge scam coming their way.

  19. chris martin permalink
    April 5, 2012 2:29 am

    I think calling Orrin evil is just taking it a step too far. A lot of peoples lives have changed for the better from team. Just because u feel like u got in a bad deal doesnt mean someones evil. People do wrong things all the time, doesnt mean there evil. Whos to make u.to be the judge of that. That is God s job. If team or Orrin have done some wrongdoings thats one thing, but calling one evil is another. What team teaches is principles that help improves ones life and help people become better le aders if they choose. Noone ever forced me to buy anything..everything is by choice. ? if it were a model of evil it would be going with the trends of the rich quick schemes, no one ever said.that this was going to be easy. This is my opinion, but I think your wrong about Orrin. I think he does want to help and make a difference in peoples lives.

  20. April 5, 2012 5:45 am

    @Considering joining Team
    I thought this would be timely for you, Chris, and others. Hey Teammunists does this ring a bell?

    From ‘The Universal Identifying Characteristics of a Cult’ ( Axiom Books, copyright David Brear 2005)
    Self-appointed sovereign leadership. Pernicious cults are instigated and ruled by psychologically dominant individuals, and/or bodies of psychologically dominant individuals (often with impressive, made-up names, and/or ranks, and/or titles), who hold themselves accountable to no one. These individuals have severe and inflexible Narcissistic Personalities (i.e. they suffer from a chronic psychological disorder, especially when resulting in a grandiose sense of self-importance/ righteousness and the compulsion to take advantage of others and to control others’ views of, and behaviour towards, them).* They steadfastly pretend moral and intellectual authority whilst pursuing various, hidden, criminal objectives (fraudulent, and/or sexual, and/or violent, etc.). The admiration of their adherents only serves to confirm, and magnify, the leaders’ strong sense of self-entitlement and fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance, beauty, ideal love, etc.

    There’s more here for those interested.
    http://mlmtheamericandreammadenightmare.blogspot.com

  21. April 5, 2012 5:55 am

    Chris mentioned integrity. Well the word means squat to he who has none within them, no matter how many times they say they are such. Look, to North Koreans their leaders, per their own rhetoric, are full of integrity as well. It’s the west, U.S. and South Korea that are the antithesis to their…what are they told, that this the best business bar none… sorry I meant the best country, it’s heaven and no other country is better. They believe that until starvation forces them to risk their lives to cross the border into China and their eyes gain sight.

    If you trust Orrin’s integrity just don’t forget to exercise Ronnie’s immortals words “Trust but verify!”

    Anyway here are two links on N.Korea’s integrity in action, trust me it’s essential reading.

    http://www.cnn.com/2012/03/24/us/north-korean-refugees/index.html
    http://www.cnn.com/2012/03/24/world/asia/north-korean-artist-defector/?iref=obnetwork
    http://www.cnn.com/2012/03/30/living/escape-camp-14-book-story/index.html?iref=allsearch

  22. April 5, 2012 6:03 am

    P/S

    -I should have said if you want to trust Orrin’s integrity just don’t forget to exercise Ronnie’s immortals words over US dealings with the then always deceptive USSR “Trust but verify!”

    -And yeah 3 links not 2.

  23. Former Round Table permalink
    April 5, 2012 9:38 am

    exambot, That description of Orrin is DEAD ON!!!

  24. webelieved permalink
    April 5, 2012 11:19 am

    Amazing….

  25. webelieved permalink
    April 7, 2012 3:02 am

    I QUIT- Great article! I can so relate to all you say. The financial losses for us were well over a thousand a month, in fact I would say it took YEARS Just to get out of the red, power player OVER AND OVER……just like you. When we factor in the gas, food, wear and tear, and all the system crap it was a LOT of dough, of course they didn’t tell us up front the REAL COSTs of doing this farce of a business. I bet they say now it’s only “50 dollars a month.” YEAH RIGHT! It is CRAZY to me now we were so brainwashed we couldn’t see how ridiculous this was to keep believing and keep working like a dog to make our upline rich.
    If downline weren’t on the brainwashing system, they quit, ALWAYS. I would say 5 out of 10 at least quit soon after the first month subscriptions, and more after. You would see ZEROS throughout your organization UNDER LEADER AFTER LEADER, not just us, until the company got rid of them at the end of the year, you know tree cleaning. YEP BUILD and replace, like a gerbil on the same damn wheel! So glad I QUIT TOO!
    Thanks for your candid answers. One question I would like you to answer for the new readers, did they ever verify Orrin’s income and lifestyle claims? Like with tax returns etc, or prove he was debt free or that his mortgage was paid off, or were you just supposed to trust your upline would never lie to you? Also did Orrin ever tell you he was getting his lifestyle from his hidden tool business and not Quixtar/ Amway? Thanks

  26. outsider permalink
    April 8, 2012 6:40 pm

    webelieved says: “If down line weren’t on the brainwashing system, they quit, ALWAYS.”

    I wish all newbies – as well as those who are still in and actually have a downline of their own – would really stop and think hard about that! This appears to be someone with many years of experience sharing this little nugget of info; anyone who really acknowledges what that statement must mean . . . will GET OUT. (Excepting true sociopaths who are OK w/victimizing others, that is.)

    This is such a key point.

  27. I QUIT (and glad I did) permalink
    April 9, 2012 7:09 am

    @ WB- No we never saw anything that could have been construed as proof to back up the various income/lifestyle claims except when Orrin got the “spanish mansion”. I finally figured out that Owen was making a killing on system as well as his Q income. We made as much off system and sometimes more than our Q income so it stood to reason that his situation would be no different. I’m just shocked that even after that revelation we still didn’t recognize the inability for that income to be passive or residual! Not to mention reliable!
    We just kept on believin’ what we were bein’ told like good little downline leaders. (Erp)

  28. witty (from back in the day) permalink
    April 11, 2012 10:14 am

    Hey it’s witty from back in the day. Just thought i’d mention how my best bud ran into what we both see now as a scam….Good ol’ Monavie! Well last I checked it was sinking…..I pray for the families of those mislead, and the leaders. I hope they don’t get any more than they deserve

  29. Burned Out With Mona Vie permalink
    April 13, 2012 2:55 am

    Great post, thanks for telling it like it really is, it really took allot of courage.

    Truth is all the “top leaders” sell the same line of “dream and grow your biz” crap to hook the prospects, tools and tickets to make themselves rich, and “buy the product it fixes everything” hype to keep the parent company looking at this scam with a “wink and a nod” and laughing their asses off behind closed doors, all this aimed at the poor uninformed prospects expense, this Orrin clown is probably the worst one I have heard about.

  30. April 13, 2012 8:46 am

    @ConsideringJoiningTEAM

    Just a couple of points to consider:

    1. Of course Team LIFE members give CDs and books away for free – that’s how the business is promoted. Just bear in mind that YOU will be responsible for purchasing your own promotional books/CDs if you join Team. Also keep in mind that Orrin and Co. are free to change the promotional material on a whim and you will be expected to keep up, even if this makes your current stock of material worthless. I can’t tell you how many thousands of dollars worth of material we had to eat the cost on when the name of the business changed or the product being promoted changed. Don’t be naive enough to think it won’t happen again, in fact it’s a certainty.

    2. Isn’t it a little early to be judging retention rates? LIFE has only been in existence for 6 months. Even MV went gangbusters the first year or so. Give it a little more time…the numbers will take a nose dive. (Note: Orrin will continue to tout the fact that teams are exploding, so be sure to look around the room at seminars and do your own head count in order to get the true picture.)

    3. It is very probable that most team members have more customers now than ever. I didn’t know many people in the old MLMs that had more than one or two customers – it’s not hard to top that.

    4. When Phase II of the business is implemented, and CDs and books are downloadable, will the prices drop? If I were a betting man, I’d predict that the prices will remain the same or only go slightly lower. This will maximize profits for the Big Dogs. They may throw a small bone to the minions, but it will be nothing compared to their windfall.

    5. The goal of the TEAM is to make a difference. That is certainly being done, but not in the way you think.

  31. April 19, 2012 4:51 am

    Good points!

    I say just call charlatans what they are, bottom of barrel feeders scammy charlatans, nothing less.

    [Editor’s note: corrected misspelling]

  32. May 9, 2012 12:48 pm

    i got out today after only 2 1/2 months one major a abunch of tuesdays and some seminars. Thanks to you all. Well more so i believe the lord led me here, to save me all that was coming. Seriously, it was because of these blogs that got me to start questioning, and just like u all comment, they told me not to look at that stuff it keeps it going. I said they told me u would say that. thank you all very much. also ive been telling others about the stuff you all bring up here. some have already disenrolled and the others are starting to see it i think. i cant believe how indoctrinated i was after that short of a time, but just like yall said ive started to see what was goin on now that im away from it. thank u thank u thank u

  33. May 10, 2012 12:54 pm

    @T – Glad that this site helped you. You’re welcome!

  34. webelieved permalink
    May 10, 2012 1:05 pm

    T- Thanks for sharing! I am really glad the site helped you. You may feel a bit of a loss for awhile, it feels good to be a part of a group in some ways. Make sure to reach out to the people who left with you and your old friends etc. Above all go have some fun!

  35. webelieved permalink
    May 10, 2012 1:06 pm

    and don’t be too hard on yourself. Have you read the book Combatting Cult Mind Control? IT is a great book!

  36. webelieved permalink
    May 10, 2012 1:11 pm

    T- I was wondering, what were they teaching you all about critics, critical websites? Did they ever specifically mention this site? When we were in they were more general, the internet is like the bathroom wall etc. Back then, there were no critics specific to Orrin or Team, just Quixtar.

  37. May 10, 2012 4:06 pm

    Thanks yall I did feel a lil loss like the dream was over but I know the lord has plans for me so I’m lookin on the bright side. It did remind me of the value of reading turning off the tv and such, so I appreciate that. They didn’t comment on this site they just said not to search for answers on the net and that looking up the scam sites only brings them to top of the search list again. I wasn’t in that long so it wasn’t too bad. I told them I was looking into the history of team and to give me a lil break so I could get some questions together. They just pointed me to upline to get my questions answered. I never did call them. Once I verified one of the stories. They kept sayin that anyone could make up those stories, disgruntled former members who never did well, just jealous probably. I agreed that was a possibility. They said Ur just gonna hurt Ur business with all the doubt. I said if its true I’m not doin the business. The biggest reason I got in life was the Christian aspect. I loved the fellowship, and if I can read and associate with Christians and get paid for it count me in. A business that promotes Christ?, it couldn’t get any better.
    Till I saw the money side start to show itself. Also the idolization, envy, and not caring that people didn’t have money sometimes to get in but just put it on a card. Ull be fine. Ur so lucky u found this. I see why orrin has to cover up his faults, he is the idol, always edify, up to him. I thought what if he gets caught doin somethin wrong its over. He said at the major that only god is worthy, I believe that. It just doesn’t seem that way in this org.
    The story I did verify was that about his former pastor. I found and called up someone who had knowledge of the situation. They were not interested in smearing anyone. Nor really giving a comment. I said I’m gonna talk and if I’m goin down the right road u just don’t say anything. I repeated what is read and there wasn’t a word said. I did ask r u still there. They said Yup. I said that’s all I need. The last thing in the world I wanted was to bring this kind of thing into my church.

    I thank the lord for leading me here. Thanks yall. U might not know it but u r helping people

  38. webelieved permalink
    May 10, 2012 4:44 pm

    T- Thanks for sharing. You are really nice to not put your friend in a situation. Asking him to be silent if what you were saying was true, is very smart! I am so glad you see some truth. It is very hard to discern when something looks so good on the outside, I know. I felt as you did at one time for many years, when I was decieved. Only God knows man’s heart, yet we can tell by their fruit. (not their money). Funny also how Jesus asked the rich man to give it all up and he couldn’t. The Team is the opposite of that example. They use scripture that only fits a false prosperity doctrine and they leave out the rest.
    .
    Satan himself (transformed) puts on the fairest appearances or Simply he will disguise as Angel of light. He inspires false pastors, Leads a false church, promotes false doctrine etc..-Wiki
    Have you read All that Glitters is Not God or Consumed by Success? Great books by a Christian who was successful in mlm and left it all. Really good,.by Athena Dean.

  39. May 10, 2012 4:44 pm

    …….Repeated what I had read……., sorry for the misspell

  40. Speak Your Truth permalink
    May 10, 2012 5:09 pm

    T~

    Thanks a ton for sharing and it is music to my ears (makes putting up with others worth it) that we all have played a part in helping you in some way. The ‘feeling’ of loss is only temporary…you really have ‘gained’ much more than you know, thankfully before to much damage was done. I am not trying to minimize your loss, but you were a lot smarter than we were because we spent years before we figured the truth out. 🙂

    They won’t ‘comment about Amthrax site (because they hope you don’t seek and find it) just call it ‘scam sites’ and as you say don’t want anyone coming here to find any truth. They already have the ‘control’ with that and layed that responsiblity on the ‘followers’ with their
    P& P… they have built a clause into their P&P but know 99% never read (because most ‘trust’ it is just legal jargon and not a binding contract to control your every move) that they can and (will) just take your business if they feel like it.

    Just like they did to us and we didn’t even sign that contract! The one we did sign they refused to give us! (way before that contract) that contract was drawn up because they know what they did was unethical, immoral, and most likely illegal. They had to come up with a new one that they ‘think’ will cover them by what they did to many Big leaders. They put all the stuff they did illegally, unethically and immorally to all their leaders into a ‘new’ one because they knew they didn’t have anyone ‘bound’ and gagged the way they do now!

    You said: “The biggest reason I got in life was the Christian aspect.”: Thank you for sharing that. It is the bait and switch and ultimately the trap, for many people, it becomes the ball and chain for many, the stamp of approval, what shuts down common sense, your mind thinks that they have to be legit, honest, have integrity etc. It stops most from questioning…they have to be what everyone else (and they claim) they are because…. they are “Christians!”

    And I highly commend you for asking about orrin’s former Pastor and having the awareness to see the truth! Good luck…there are millions of ways to find and serve ‘your’ purpose in life and from the knowledge and experience I have gained from years you would never have achieved it through this deceptive MLM.

  41. switch permalink
    May 10, 2012 5:43 pm

    Imagine that….another one decides to leave because of false hope, lies, and deception. Sounds like T here, decided to fire the truth at them and “someone” couldn’t handle it.

    As stated before, this just keeps getting better and better…. Welcome to the blogs, T!

  42. Brent Hansen permalink
    May 10, 2012 6:37 pm

    T, your a genius! Welcome to the true 5%. Those who know the truth and have been set free.

  43. Freedomhaha permalink
    May 11, 2012 8:15 am

    T-Thanks for sharing.

  44. Bill permalink
    July 22, 2012 7:39 pm

    I have a friend who is involved in Team, and he says after the initial fee for business registration and introductory packet he is not under any obligation to purchase life materials to remain in the business, although I have noticed he is signed up for the Life Subscriptions. Is there an obligation to continue to purchase materials each month to stay in the business? I would rather not have my real name put in the post, but would like to know the answer.

    Editor’s note: Edit to remove poster’s full name

  45. July 23, 2012 7:21 am

    @Bill – From the LIFE compensation plan PDF (bold emphasis mine):

    In order to receive a Member Commission Bonus, a Member is required to establish subscription customers that generate a total of 50 points each month. Customers are non-Members who purchase products. A subscription customer is a customer that subscribes and pays for at least one of the three LIFE monthly subscription products during the commission period.

    It is understood that in developing any business it takes time to develop customers. Therefore, a new Member has 6 months to attain the 50 point subscription customer requirement. During the time allowed to develop customers, a Member can earn commission bonuses based on downline Member PV.

    The 6 month target starts on the 1st of the month following the Member registration date. The customer requirements must be met each month and are based on successful subscription transactions and not registered subscribers.

    I wonder how they police the customer rule. And, I wonder how many LIFE members are actually selling LIFE subscriptions to non-Members — instead of buying them for themselves and calling it a customer transaction — on a monthly basis.

    Read the comments on this post for more discussion of the compensation rules.

  46. Speak Your Truth permalink
    July 23, 2012 9:05 am

    Or putting them in their grandma’s name, great grandma, dog, cat, rabbit…”What-evr-it-takes! or perhaps their is a customer ‘button’ you click! What a joke…real customers….haha

    Now remember: “In God we trust; all others bring data.” ~ W. Edward Deming

    PDCA, The Deming cycle~ W. Edward Deming

    Since orrin loves to quote Mr. Deming and plagerize his work then the questions is Where’s the “data” of the real customers…orrin?

  47. Speak Your Truth permalink
    July 23, 2012 10:08 am

    Bill~

    Your friend says: “after the initial fee for business registration and introductory packet he is not under any obligation to purchase life materials (to remain in the business) empahsis mine, although I have noticed he is signed up for the Life Subscriptions.”

    But the real question is will your friend or anyone else get PAID “profit-sharing” for the work he does if he ‘doesn’t purchase life materials’?I am pretty sure, NOT! So then would this make it an illegal pyramid scheme if they are paying others (upline/profit-sharers) off… just the purchases of the “registration and introductory packet?” Hmm..

    Here is the key, they are misleading and deceive others with their smooth talking, “just trust us”…Of course your friend is NOT… “he is not under any obligation to purchase life materials to remain in the business” ..How could they legally ‘make’ someone purchase anything?

    That doesn’t mean squat other than they won’t ‘kick him out of the business for not purchasing life materials.’
    But trust me they are counting on your friend… buying and buying and buying til eternity if they can get him to.. and unfortunately they work this by trapping others by getting them ‘deeply spending’ and with False hope.. They will get your friend to “believe” he will be successful “IF” he follows “the system”…or what the “pc” does he will have what they have.. They get your friend to a meeting and then the high ‘pressure’ (undue influence) begins..They will tell others the only way to success is through their “system”…you won’t win or you won’t be successful or “leaders”= Power-players the “Elite of the Elite”… lead by example… (Power-Player = Mandatory Purchasing and you have to “DO” the business.. to qualify…in other words.. PURCHASING EVERYTHING!)!

    Ask your friend how he can have a passive pipeline business “B”-business= YOU OWN the SYSTEM that works for YOU!… Your friend nor does anyone else … but orrin OWN the system , so therefore how will your friend have a “B” business or even continue to get paid ‘passive’ income if he can be “voted out” for ANY reason and has NO control over how much or IF he ever gets paid (see LIEf P&P)?!!

    Your friend will soon figure out that those who aren’t ‘obligated to purchase’ and DON”T; will NOT ‘stay in the business (ask him how many have quit on his team already?) nor will they around long nor will they get any help in building.. ‘Edification’ etc. from their upline.

    Didn’t someone on here say you ‘have’ to spend $600 once they reach a certain level to continue to get paid?

  48. Puzzled permalink
    July 23, 2012 10:14 pm

    I have a member of our organization that is also a member of Team. I believe they are using our organization’s money to purchase Life materials, since our organization is considered a “non-member”. They have done this for several months and we discovered this from credit card statements that say “life subscriptions” and the amount is the same $90.50 each month. When confronted they said it is for “counseling” materials. I know Life subscriptions are $50, what else would they be buying to make it $90.50? Also, we have asked them for an invoice to find out what counseling materials have been ordered. At present they are reluctant, but if they give us one, how do I know it is accurate, not doctored? What is included on an invoice from Life? Better yet, is there any way I can get a copy of a real Life invoice to compare? Any other suggestions from those familiar with Team/Life to build a case against this person of “conflict of interest” in purchasing Team materials with our organizations money?

  49. July 24, 2012 7:58 am

    @puzzled – the person could be buying additional LIFE materials like the AGO series or the Edge Youth series. That would bring the price closer to the $90.50/month you’re seeing on the credit card statements.

    If the person is using your organization’s credit card, you could call up LIFE to get invoice information about each order.

    Hope you get this straightened out.

  50. Puzzled permalink
    July 24, 2012 11:41 am

    Would Life give invoice information if is not the member calling? They did charge on our organization’s credit card, but it was the member who made the order. If you think they would give us the info, I’ve never seen a number to call?

  51. July 24, 2012 12:48 pm

    Email I believe was good way to get questions answered, if they’ll do it. I think it was life-support@the business. They were always very prompt in their reply

  52. Speak Your Truth permalink
    July 24, 2012 3:54 pm

    Puzzled~

    I understand if you don’t want to share the name of your organization and perhaps I am not fully understanding based on your comments But if it is the (company or organizations) credit card then who’s money really is it and who has the authority to spend and use the credit card and can it be spent on personal ‘self-help’ material for that person who gave Lief permission to charge the credit card? Is everyone in your “organization” listening to the CD’s, reading the books, and possibly going to a LIEf seminars?

    It sounds like the “member of your organization” is getting personal materials? The “non-member” status, I believe only means you are a “customer” vs a “member” (many more costs involved) so as a “customer or non-member” therefore you just wouldn’t be getting the “member discount” and wouldn’t be “recruiting” others in as a “business”. So whoever in “your organization” or all who has the authority to use the credit card should be able to get an itemized copy of what your organization’s charges are? You could verify by asking those questions and getting copies of what the $90.50 is for.

    This sounds like a very serious matter, possibly illegal since it is sounds like it is being used for personal use by an “organization’s credit card” and not that individual credit card. Who is purchasing through Lief…books, cds, and possibly $35 dollar seminar ticket? Could you clarify or explain more on how your organization works?

    They quit allowing people to ‘call’ the Team/LIEf office a long time ago. But when you email ask for a phone number to talk live to a person, because they do have someone you should be able to talk to like Rob Halstrand the Team/LIEf accountant and whatever title he now has… CFO, CEO I am not sure on the title.

    Thanks for sharing this could be another very interesting situation of how Team/Lief are handling and operating and please keep all the readers informed of how and if your situation gets resolved.

  53. Puzzled permalink
    July 24, 2012 5:43 pm

    Speak your truth, thanks, I’m just trying to connect the dots. Our organization is faith-based, and this person does counseling, so they can order counseling materials.What they cannot do is use our organization to further their part time business. They have not produced us an invoice, which I think will tell us what actually was purchased. On the CC statement it says “LIfe Subscription” which if I understand correctly is 4 CD’s and a book. That could be hard to explain if it doesn’t relate to counseling. I’m trying to understand what it is that a Team Member is required to do. In the Life Compensation Plan, it says a member is required to establish subscription customers that generate 50 points per month. Customers are non-Members who purchase products (Is my organization the non-member). A subscription customer is a customer that subscribes and pays for at least one Life monthly subscription products (Is that why this person purchased a “Life Subscription”). The customer requirements must be met each month and are based on successful subscription transactions (Is this why there were 5 months of CC charges). I guess my question is “What happens if they don’t have our organization buy a Life Subscription each month, Does requirement mean, if you miss a month you are out. I don’t think this person would use Life Counseling materials, but he is getting something out of this by ordering and using our organization. What would be some scenarios? Again, they won’t let us see the invoice (I believe they will have to surrender it eventually), What’s on the invoice that would they don’t want us to see.

  54. Freedomhaha permalink
    July 24, 2012 6:23 pm

    Puzzled- If your organization is faith based please separate yourself from LIFE as quickly as possible. God bless on your true mission. Once your name gets tied up with TEAM your group doing the right thing will be in trouble.

  55. Puzzled permalink
    July 24, 2012 7:16 pm

    Freedomhaha, that is why I’m trying to solve this. I see how this group holds out great riches and people are sucked into it. They become confused and will do anything to achieve this pipe dream through the LIfe formula. This person counsels and he can purchase counseling materials which Life has. I have to show the link that they used the organizations money to benefit their continuance in achieving their pie in the sky. My question is still, “Did this person see our organization as a way to meet the requirements of monthly obligations set forth in his contract” I was quoting from the member requirements that Amthrax sent me from the Life compensation plan in an earlier post. It seems they are obligated to find a non-member to purchase Life subscription to either receive their bonus” I have to show the link, otherwise the person will say I am authorized to purchase counseling materials, I chose Life counseling materials. I think the key is the member requirements, but don’t know enough about how it works, or what happens if you don’t find someone to purchase these materials.

  56. Freedomhaha permalink
    July 24, 2012 7:51 pm

    Puzzled- We have members of this community that know about the details better than myself. What I do know is that you are taking all the right steps in your search to rid your organization of LIEf.

  57. Speak Your Truth permalink
    July 24, 2012 8:01 pm

    Puzzled~

    You are onto the bottom line. I feel the member of your organization maybe “using” your faith organization as a “customer/Non-Member” for his/her personal gain in building HIS Lief business. If this is the case that as I suspect then the person in your organization would be making money off of your organization, which in turn would seem very wrong if he is telling the whole story to justify the expenses he is charging your organization.

    BTW~ I am very hard pressed to believe the “CD’s” have any “counseling” value at all. They are recordings from Lief seminars are for “motivational” and others “ stories” (that are coached to give ALL the credit for Everything good in their lives because of LIEf even though it has only been there since Nov. but really “the system “ is a copy of Amway’s since orrin woodward was in 1993).

    The cd’s copied from the seminars maybe provide some entertainment and are a lot less “counseling” valued. Your organization can figure that out by listening to them. The “counseling” is just what they are now call, it use to be they only used the word “mentoring”….just trendy with the times, imo.

    I know that we would get people to these seminars to “lock them in” because we knew they would get wrapped up in the “dream” and “emotion” and nicey nice manipulative environment, rather than teach you how to run a real business. In other words it is a way they use thought reform and undue influence to get you “locked in.”

    I believe if you can find out if the person from your org. is a “member” then you will see that there is a monetary motive for him/her to purchase the Lief material for your organization. The other thing is the Lief program calls says they “counseling” and I use that loosely and as far as my experience with the TOP level none of them are “qualified or certified counselors”.
    Good Luck, just a another tip they use deception in a very skillful way so don’t feel bad about being “puzzled”….People who were involved such as those on here would tell you it is very secretive and confusing intentionally.

    Don’t give up you will get to the bottom of it.

  58. July 25, 2012 1:48 am

    I thought u could use any subscription. To satisfy that need by the end of Ur first 6 months. what I mean by subscription is any dollar amount. I saw a person who made their avatar turn green instead of red (meaning their customer minimum had been met) with just the edge 10$ a month series. U was gonna cancel the ago 25a/m and reorder it thru subscription. This makes me wonder why the amount of 90.50, sounds like they are padding their personal volume

  59. July 25, 2012 9:04 am

    @PUZZLED
    Perhaps you should have the accountant lean on the guy to produce the invoices with a threat to call in fraud and cancel the c.card. This is fraud in progress.

    May I suggest you consider to produce some of the embarrassing claims against LIEf (there’s plenty) and back them up with facts to discredit their materials for counseling usage by your org. What your colleague is doing is a good start – deviously orchestrating your org. to purchase the ahem, counseling materials but diverting the same for his/her personal use. Once this is established don’t stop there push to have this twerp removed as a counselor – can’t be trusted and he exercised fraud on your org. Push even further perhaps to establish a peer review committee to audit and recommend or reject counseling materials.

  60. July 25, 2012 5:54 pm

    In what true business do u rely or make more money on Ur so to speak partners more than marketing Ur product to customers. Ex. Bill- Lewis.net (the shocking truth about orrin woodward) his comment, tix or tickets x 200 = volume. That’s shocking

  61. Puzzled permalink
    July 28, 2012 12:21 am

    Amthrax, I need some help. I now have the invoices from Life for the person who is a leader of our organization who is spending our organizations money on Life and saying they are for their counseling. There are 5 months and each invoice says Life Subscriptions – 4 CD’s and a book and AGO subscription – 1 CD and a book. With tax and shipping they = 90.50. My questions are for those who have signed this Life Product Registration Form in which they sign up for the monthly Life Subscriptions. Q: Does the person who signs up and receives these each month, do they have a choice which CD’s and which book they receive or does Life send them whatever they want them to receive because the invoice does not have any specifics? Q: Is there any way of knowing what materials they received?

  62. webelieved permalink
    July 28, 2012 6:31 am

    Life sends them a monthly subscription of what the company decides. Everyone gets the same thing. AGO is the spiritual series of cds and book.

  63. webelieved permalink
    July 28, 2012 6:34 am

    Most likely you need to ask them to see the materials to get specifics. I would ask to listen to the cds. That is where you may have a problem with it. The books are usually Christian authors. I wonder if it is a good way to spend your organizations money when he can get them on Amazon much cheaper.

  64. Speak Your Truth permalink
    July 28, 2012 8:41 am

    They always used to have the name of the Cd’s and Books along with the series numbers, on the invoices.

    The Cd’s also have ID numbers. Example; TEAM-1 (stories, basic teach), LLR–1 (leadership for builders) and AGO-1 (ministry & their charity name All Grace Outreach ) PP-1, (Power-Player Series /builders), AGO series, used to be ERM-Emmaus Road Ministries) they go in numerical sequence; Team-2, 3, and so on. Books the same it would be BK-10 for example.

    Just a heads up IF the Power-Player and LLR (Launching Leadership Revolution series) is on the invoice, then it is highly likely your person purchasing is a member and not a customer, therefore your organization would be HIS/HER customer could be potentionally getting their stuff for free by meeting customer requirement and also potentionally making some income from that also.

    It would be best to Email the team office with the dates and invoice numbers and they would be able to tell you what cd’s series, their #’s, books and their titles, that your organization paid for.

    Hope that helped..

  65. Puzzled permalink
    July 28, 2012 8:44 am

    webelieved, thanks, that is what i am looking for. it’s kind of like the book of the month club? If I confront them about the books, how would I know if they are giving me a book that Life gave them or one off of their counseling shelves? Obviously the CD’s are marked.

  66. Speak Your Truth permalink
    July 28, 2012 8:46 am

    Also if your org. is the “customer”, for your person they could be getting the other series sent directly to him seperately for his/her business building purposes and through his/her membership. Hope this isn’t too confusing.

  67. Puzzled permalink
    July 28, 2012 8:49 am

    Speak the Truth, these invoices only had this:
    “Life Subscription – 4 CD’s and a book” There is no mention of what CD series or what book. Are you confirming what webelieved said, and that is that Life decides what to send, the customer does not have any input in to what is being sent in these subscription series?

  68. Speak Your Truth permalink
    July 28, 2012 8:57 am

    Abosutely the “PC” choose what books you read and get sent out on the BOM (book of Month).

    As a matter of fact it is a BIG no-no if any of the lower level leaders or even Round Table go off and read their own choices, you will get the condesending treatment and the message is loud and clear…You Don’t do that!

    I know this from experience, not to mention “if you are a leader” you are already probably getting 4 books a month through all their expected series on top of what ever your “upline” was telling you to read and sometimes those books were not in the “system” and not promoted to anyone else.

  69. Speak Your Truth permalink
    July 28, 2012 8:59 am

    It is information CONTROL to the enth degree!

  70. Speak Your Truth permalink
    July 28, 2012 9:05 am

    This may not be important to you, but for the readers they also have an “editing process” for the CD’s; if they don’t like something said or don’t want it on a cd then they edit it out.

    As speakers and In our case they would allow us to hear it before hand and edit it also. I am not sure if all got to do this.

  71. July 28, 2012 8:26 pm

    @Puzzled – Speak and Webelieved are saying the same time. For the monthly LIFE Subscription, the customer has no choice in what they receive. LIFE chooses the book and the CDs to send to everyone.

    On the LIFE website, you can of course buy individual CDs and books.

  72. Worried sick about relative who is brainwashed permalink
    August 15, 2012 3:17 pm

    I met with my nephew last night and heard about this bogus scam. I cannot believe how brainwashed he is – having faced bankruptcy, foreclosure and divorce he must have been at the lowest of lows and was sucked in hook, line and sinker. It is very scary to see this, getting into watching the webinar, whooping it up and almost acting like a born again faith healer. I emailed his sister and she spoke of an intervention. He is going to come over this week to pick up the cd I didn’t listen to after looking briefly through the book and hearing the recorded webinar he invited me to. I’m just going to say this is based on greed and materialism, not my value system. I prefer doing a day’s work and feeling good about it. Also that I did some research and there is much shady dealings associated with the history of this outfit.

  73. August 16, 2012 10:31 am

    @worried sick – let us know how the intervention goes. Be sure to read the rest of the posts on this site for tips on how to approach him.

  74. freedomhaha permalink
    August 16, 2012 10:34 am

    Worried sick- Your family will be in my thoughts and prayers. It won’t be easy to pull someone away, but boy will it be worth it.

  75. positive attitude permalink
    October 21, 2012 12:33 am

    I just got started with the organization and the life team biz. The material and messages are what got me as well as the opportunity that they presented. I did not do enough research into this. I have barely a month in. I really have to admit that I like the information that is presented. It is great material, and the life stories on CD’s are pretty inspiring. Having viewed this website and found out past information on amway, mona vie, lawsuits…so I am not so sure this is as amaising as I believed it to be. I will ask more questions to my friends and hope I get good answers. Because right now I have a lot of questions that I have to say I was nieve to ask about. Now there are people that are for and against everything. like politics, so I have to get the information and make a sound judgement but I have to admit right now I have doubts. will have to say I will find out more information and make a good judgement. It is always good to have an oposit to something to hear the opposing side. You get the best decisions that way.

  76. October 21, 2012 8:07 am

    @positive attitude – much of the positive material you can get in the library for free. The life stories may be nice and all, but they are designed to keep you within the LIFE system and to keep you paying for the LIFE materials. Best wishes as you continue to investigate and ask questions.

  77. Freedomhaha permalink
    October 21, 2012 8:23 am

    Positive- I also loved the material when I joined as well. People that I really respected in other areas of life used the material that they used. By that I mean when TEAMcult uses authors such as Jim Collins, John Wooden, and John Maxwell for their own purposes. What I found out after about a year is that they used the credibility of those authors to rope you into their purpose. When any of those authors talk about going after your hopes and dreams they do it on a much more meaningful level than to scam your neighbors by offering them overpriced books/CD’s.

    My advice: GET OUT!! This thing is a huge scam, but even worse a cult. People on this blog will be there for you when you make the right decision and leave. You are so lucky that you found this thing after only about a month it could be much, much worse.

  78. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    October 21, 2012 8:40 am

    @positive attitude: that you “question” is good–it means you are thinking independently and some read flags have been raised. While it may be good to dismiss the “politics” of various things at times, it would never be wise to dismiss the math: even the Federal Trade Commission has deduced that you will be in the 95% plus category of financial loss (and THAT is in MLM schemes that actually sell consumable, tangible goods to end consumers–which is, in it’s starkest reality, what Woodward got rid of in his 4th attempt, i.e., LIFE/Team.)

    It is NOT so much, the printed and CD materials that contain the worst inherent danger. It is the indoctrination you receive….and as you go along…your ability to question them will grow less and less…this is real–this is not speculation–and it can happen very rapidly. I am the “victim” of rapid indoctrination of my grown child who had been told early on: dismiss the naysayer out of your life; follow us; listen to us; your naysayer has “no vision”; your naysayer, literally, is likely to piss his/herself in fear of success (oh, yes, my own grown child’s Policy Council member said just this, publicly, world-wide).

    You will be lulled by the Christian comraderie and the superficial success of your upliners who are trying to convince you that if only you keep spending–on books, meetings, travel, CDs–that you are becoming part of a revolution of financially successful Christians. Behind closed doors, they have suddenly taken away years of hard work of some of their members (Raquel Peters family; Melanie Morgan family, for example), leaving them without the promised residual income, without emotional support, degrading them behind their backs to others as “losers”, etc.

    It is my fondest hope that you never lose your ability to question—that you do not allow the hypocritical mind of Orrin Woodward and his duped membership, whom he has corraled not unlike a foreign invader subduing the masses and inflicting a dictatorship on them—to blind you from the fact that: only the very few make money; only those who keep their mouths shut may be among the few survivors………and like Amthrax and others have said: you can get all of this info for free at the library….all you need for a sense of discussion and growth are a few, true friends to sit down and talk to and associate with.

    The horrible paradox of being in such a multi-level marketing scheme which forces you to sign a contract giving up all of your rights, is this: as you earn more and more money, you begin to lose your home/family/local society base of existence—there is NO TIME…you get sucked in deeper and deeper.

    Yes, keep questioning! Never allow them to squelch this ability in you. In the end, you’ll likely quit on your own. One can only hope.

    First quesiton I would ask after realizing the math does not add up: is there ANYONE in my upline who is more qualified than those I already have in my life, at least one special person in my life whom I trust…….who is MORE qualified to “counsel” me on: family/fun/finances/following/etc?

    AND REMEMBER A LIFE/TEAM CAVEAT: you are NOT supposed to commiserate with cross-liners…even if your best friend or brother/sister is in that cross-line! (This alone would make me quit in the New York Proverbial Heartbeat!)

  79. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    October 21, 2012 8:46 am

    Correction to my above post: oops: “read flags” = red flags, of course and excuse all other typos.

  80. Raquel Peters permalink
    October 21, 2012 12:22 pm

    Don’t forget the policies and procedures that state they can take your business that is not really yours.
    Anytime, for any reason. And you cannot sue. You signed your rights away to a man (orrin) that refuses to send contracts to people who he had sign them, among other things.

  81. Raquel Peters permalink
    October 21, 2012 2:23 pm

    Different contracts then the Life or directors contract, he had leaders sign. He promised all of us residual income for years, and didn’t keep his word. In fact he changed to a new contract, promised to send it to us and never did. After stealing our team and giving it to our upline, when asked in writing to send us a copy of our orginal contract that he originally only allowed us 5 minutes to read, Orrin Woodward refused to send it!. What business on the up and up does that?

  82. October 23, 2012 10:15 am

    Yep, it’s the “stories” in the CD’s that got me locked in as well after I agreed to keep an “open mind” and entertain their presentation.

  83. E. Hardy permalink
    April 12, 2013 4:35 pm

    It was the juice that got me locked in for at least 2 years. CD’s and books, I could not finish them. I already knew the next sentence before any chapter ended. CD’s, they made me fall asleep right at the beginning. Testimonies, very phony sounding. I can imagine how they were being told to “fake it until You Make It” I was instructed that before. I said, No, not me. Lying and faking is not in my vocabulary. What a lesson we all learned. I just wanted wholesale price for my juice. But it wasn’t wholesale price at all. How crazy is that? Was so glad to be out.

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