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Pokorny v. Quixtar Class Action Settlement

April 20, 2012

Former Quixtar IBOs have been receiving a notice in the mail regarding the Pokorny v. Quixtar Class Action Settlement. Basically, a bunch of ex-IBO’s (Jeff Pokorny, Larry Blenn and Kenneth Busiere) sued Quixtar and certain BSM companies (i.e. tools companies), arguing that they violated several state and federal laws, including:

  • Recruiting IBOs in an illegal scheme
  • Misrepresenting the amounts of profits that IBOs could earn
  • Persuading IBOs to buy overpriced products and business support materials

The settlement exists to avoid the cost and risk of going to trial. If you were an IBO between January 1, 2003 and February 21, 2012, you have a right to a cash payment or free products. Agreeing to be part of the settlement class means that you cannot sue Quixtar nor tools companies regarding these claims in the future. You can also object to the settlement, but you would still be part of the Class — and as a result, cannot sue in the future.

The final option — the one that keeps retains your ability to sue Quixtar and BSMs in the future — is to exclude yourself from the settlement by writing a letter to:

Quixtar Settlement Exclusions/Objections
PO Box 8035
Faribault, MN 55021-9435

Include your name, address, phone number, and a note saying you want to be excluded from the settlement.

More information about the class action lawsuit can be found here:

112 Comments leave one →
  1. Speak Your Truth permalink
    April 20, 2012 9:43 am

    Thanks Amthrax for putting up these specifics for the readers. I have to agree with NTFM & Weblieved, the catch is you cannot hold ‘tool/ training companies’ responsible or sue in the future. I am sure there will be some people who will opt out of this for that very reason.

    Orrin & PC are loving that clause (allowing someone else to take the fall for them, what they are best at) and am sure they will go on as ‘business as usual’ which this imo, gives them the green light (or not) for no accountablity or responsiblity for the multi-millions of ‘loses’ they created for tens of thousands, by their ‘tool scam’ alone .

    But we all know, eventually all reap what they have sown. It seems this could be the beginning or would help in many ways. It never ceases to amaze me how Orrin & PC continue on with the same ole’ same ole, dictating orders, controlling everyone and their businesses from the TOP! They have obviosuly made some very ‘desperate’ decisons for everyone else. Their damaging decisions have effected everyone else’s supposed business’, but yet they ‘blame’ all those people for what they were contolling! It will take someone or a few to hold them accountable because they will never accept that or willing do it on their own.

    They will continue to ‘blame’ (quitters,losers, haters, dream stealers, etc.) all those (99%) who lost from thousands to tens of thousands of dollars. They knowingly, willing, and deliberately know and have built it in their comp plan & P&P (control everything) pillaging others finances and every other area.

    I am convinced they aren’t capable of showing any remorse and or empathy, which is clearly visible through their action and words; for the loses and damage (financially, emotionally, relationally, and spiritually) in the lives of those who joined/join Lief/Team. It will catch up eventually just like this lawsuit confirms.

    Thanks again, for all you do, Amthrax!

  2. Options permalink
    April 20, 2012 10:00 am

    wish this could be searched by date of posting

  3. April 20, 2012 3:06 pm

    Speak Your Truth, TEAM us *not* part of the settlement. Afaik there’s no reason you can’t make a settlement claim against Quixtar and still sue TEAM.

    Nearly half of the cash settlement is earmarked to pay Pokorny & Blenn’s lawyers. I expect Quixtar’s lawyers were costing at least as much.

    Apart from people who get free product for not renewing and not asking for a refund (and many won’t bother with that) I suspect the requirements mean very little of the settlement will actually be paid out, so this is all about paying off the lawyers.

  4. April 20, 2012 3:37 pm

    Nop! It’s about the principle, while the whole gamut of legal rigmarole is just another day at the Jaay Ohhh Bhee for the lawyers. No need to spin this one.

  5. Speak Your Truth permalink
    April 20, 2012 5:19 pm


    Thanks, I appreciate your explanation. I agree many probably won’t want the products and honestly think that will offend some. Although I am sure there was many, many hours and much professional effort put into this, it seems that the lions share always ends up with the attorneys. No different than Orrin & the PC or the top of any MO…(sorry couldn’t resist)…because it’s true!

  6. Speak Your Truth permalink
    April 20, 2012 5:33 pm


    LOL..I can’t help but crack up at the Jay Ohhh Bhee. But on a serious note, I couldn’t agree more that the intent of class action (at least the courageous people who bring it); is based on principle. Obviously they aren’t going to ‘pay’ to get all their ‘dreams’ because they won’t be gaining much monetarily. 🙂

  7. April 21, 2012 10:01 am


    If O-dubious is talking about IBOFB I won’t argue that one. I too used to work for scAmway 24/7, 9-5-3 BIB. They say 5 days but it was 24/7 or 6 for serious bots; I worked as a cult indoctrinated, unpaid, non commissioned sales agent dubbed IBO.

    So Odubious is right somehow – There are some posters here who work for scAmway in similar capacities. For agreeing with Odooby excuse while I go throw up and take a shower.

    How does O-dooby know that scAmbots are posting here? You mean he reads this positively “negative” site? Is he not violating LIEf P&P? Do I smell hypocrisy?

  8. April 21, 2012 10:03 am


    Finally here it is yo’ll you mean as confirmed by IBOFB, that a class action lawyer is one heck of a better paying Jay Ohhh Bhee than scAmway’s unpaid, non commissioned scambot sales agent? HUAH!

    Keep in mind that he above referenced acknowledgement is of course, as we all know, blasphemous to mlm gods – the very venerated (cough, cough) mobster owners and kingpin saviors (more coughs).

  9. April 21, 2012 10:06 am

    @Speak about Jay Ohhh Bhee

    You are welcome! And make sure it’s accompanied by the most condescending tone you can possibly muster, exactly as the MLM kingpins say it!

    BTW can you believe that a grown a$$ man, somebody’s husband, father… pukes this crap out of their mouth, expects to be called some hero changing peoples’ lives, and thinks he will be respected after such? I don’t know how some wives would not set their men straight after that, but then again the inner workings of a cult mind make for an interesting subject to study. I know my wife would be all over my a$$ if I even attempted or seemed to put people down like that.

    NEWSFLASH MLMbots – Besides the impossibility all humanity was not born to be MLM kingpins, neither are 99% of yo’ll!

  10. April 21, 2012 2:14 pm


    On a serious note help us put ibofb’s claim into a congruent perspective – lest they are just gadfly barbs (his other previous comments failed at spin and proved to be specious). When did you come to know …what the internet was, rocket?

    His claim is in fact, manna to an insight I was just about to share (will do shortly.)

  11. April 21, 2012 2:21 pm

    And btw Rocket, I will gladly take a slow rocket outside of a commercial cult for if it crashes and burns I will know heck at least it was moving, than a fast one inside of it – it doesn’t go anywhere for 99%+ of it’s riders, by a deliberate design.

  12. April 21, 2012 2:55 pm

    LOL. Ol’ IBOFB makes me laugh with his consistent rhetoric about how great Amway is and how nobody knows anything about it but him.

    Get there he is, after, what 2 decades? He still ain’t anywhere close to the top of the heap.

    So much damage control, so little profit. If it weren’t so sad it would be funny. Glad you’re back IBOFB! Been missing you and your consistent (albeit inaccurate) spinning!

    [Editor’s note: used IBOFB’s moniker instead of name]

  13. April 22, 2012 2:47 am

    Unlike (apparently) you, Rocket, I went in to Amway thinking it was a business and it would reward results. I didn’t think I just needed to hang around for a few years and I’d start marking money.

    Amazing how many people think MLM is a scam because you don’t make money by doing nothing.

    (NB: I don’t include many of the folk on this particular forum in that comment, who clearly worked hard but struggled under the low revenue TEAM stacking system and high expense TEAM training system)

  14. April 22, 2012 7:34 am

    I would like to have a form to fill out so I can submitt my claim.

  15. April 22, 2012 12:10 pm

    IBOFB, I disagree that people think MLM is a scam because you don’t make money by doing nothing.

    I think what you overlook is the fact that people are misled about what it is they will be doing in order to create a profit. TEAM/LIFE/Woody is a clear example of this, but it is disingenuous of you to suggest that other LOS within Amway have not participated in that very practice.

    The deception is what most take issue with, along with extremely questionable claims made while recruiting people who are not familiar with the concept/business.

    It’s been acknowledged by Amway themselves (and diamond & above level folks) that some IBO’s make more $$ from the motivational business than the Amway business.

    There are those who have spouted off consistently about how profitable and what a great business Amway is, yet don’t appear to be retired, or even at a high level. Even after many, many years.

    For what it’s worth, I put Amway at a higher level than Woodward. But not Amway “leaders”. Amway prices are unreasonably high for no real apparent reason, but if people want to overpay for stuff, then who am I to judge?

    The corporation in my opinion is complicit in what I consider to be unethical business practices.

    If everyone was up front about where the money comes from and how it’s made, I think you’d see very few critics.

    So, do tell IBOFB, how many years you been in and what level are you at? I mean, you can surely prove this works, no?

  16. Brent Hansen permalink
    April 22, 2012 1:18 pm

    Steadson, any time you are ready to open up your back office and take the challenge let me know. Your bullshit is tiring.

  17. April 22, 2012 6:54 pm

    Pay attention Brent, Rocket – I haven’t been running an Amway business for longer than the tax authorities require me to keep records.

    What is the challenge anyway?

    As for misleading people, of course that’s wrong, but can *you* provide evidence that it’s even common, let alone the norm?

    Am I the only one that’s noticed that despite huge growth around the world, including the US, new internet debate and complaints over Amway have almost dried up since TEAM and it’s various associates got kicked out/quit?


    Oh and Brent – care to actually point out anything I say that’s been bullshit?

    Probably getting off topic here. Sorry Amthrax!

  18. Brent Hansen permalink
    April 22, 2012 8:11 pm

    Steadson, can you point out one thing you have said that isn’t bullshit? That might be easier.

    You wrote, “I haven’t been running an Amway business for longer than the tax authorities require me to keep records.”

    Interesting enough that isn’t what you wrote on a Facebook interaction about 1 year ago. Perhaps I will have to post your comments from that thread up here to remind you.

    But then again, I have much better things to do than trying to expose your ignorance, you have already done a great job of that yourself.

    Bye for now.

  19. Former Round Table permalink
    April 23, 2012 1:27 pm

    If Amway were blameless, then why the Pokorny settlement? I think that says it all, IBOFB.

  20. Nancy permalink
    April 24, 2012 11:04 am

    My husband was very motivated and believed he could of done really well with Amway. We were on our way to a seminar in Canada when my family was involved in a car accident. The other driver hit us head on and killed my husband and mother. Wondering if the Amway group offers any type of accidental insurance or support?

  21. str82cam permalink
    April 24, 2012 3:53 pm

    exambot……So you believe Amway is a classic pyramid cult….LMMFAO, you my unfriend are a classic idiot! let’s see 50+ years in business, have helped more people become financially independant than all the other companies in the world put together (outside of stocks,,,and how they doin??) just under 11 billion in 2011 DEBT FREE and privately held. Sure your ‘cult’ job or as you put it “SLOW ROCKET” is doing just as well. Funny how others are working hard to achieve their goals and your sitting at your computer, probably in your underwear eating chunky monkey ice cream, cause that’s what losers do, passing judgement on a company that has revolutiionized business and helped change the lives of more people than your sorry a$$ would meet in 10 lifetimes.
    Misery loves company,,,,losers always try to stop winners.. That rule never changes.
    Signed……Ultimate winner. btw, while you’re at work tomorrow, think of me, I’ll be on a plane heading to a tropical island on an all expense paid trip. DAM I LOVE THIS CULT!

  22. str82cam permalink
    April 24, 2012 3:55 pm

    OH Also…exambot. 99% of its users fail huh? Kinda sounds like the JAY OHHH BEE doesn’t it? 98% of the people in America die BROKE. You kinda seem a little on the dumb side but stop talking and removing all doubt. Please!

  23. April 25, 2012 6:59 pm

    Yes, I can and HAVE provided evidence of dishonesty and deception. Forgetful or selective? It’s there for all to see, and based on my hits from either Sweden or you know exactly what I’m talking about. Liar.

    How long does your tax authority require you to keep records? For the record, that’s a very roundabout way of defending no success after a substantial amount of time in this business, not to mention the previous business with your previous relationship? Liar.

    You’ve been involved and defending the toilet of a business that is Amway since at least the summer of 1999. 13 years is a long time to have to hold onto tax records. In Canada it’s only 7. Either that or you’re just lying again. Liar.

    Wow, lucky 13! 13 years and no notable results, no notable success, and no credibility whatsoever that establishes Amway as a worthwhile, profitable, and fiscally sound business for an individual to get involved in.

    Not to be mean, but maybe this isn’t for you there, chief. You talk like a diamond and spin like a diamond, but in the real world people tend to call you on your bullshit.

    2 out of 3 ain’t bad. I will await your current pin level, but I shan’t be holding my breath. Just another example of why you can’t possibly be taken seriously. Liar.

  24. April 26, 2012 8:25 am

    Ibofb said “hit 4000PV before you even knew what the internet was, rocket.”

    Actually 4k pv level is a good thing for the many innocent souls who would have been ensnared in scAmway’s mlm nightmare supporting his “success” had IBOFB made it beyond that by now or heavens forbid, diamond.

    When my eyes regained sight and I decided to learn all I could about commercial cults from the experts, critics and mlm apologists, I came across IBOFB’s innumerous posts dated circa 2002 (may be earlier, I’m not sure but Rocket says some date back to 1999). 10, 13+ years still at 4k PV is a dismal record still at 4k pv (proly below 4k by now, I remember reading his comments somewhere lamenting that web critics had made his business difficult, I don’t have a link).

    In spite of his prolific web posts I had never heard any diamond talk about IBOFB’s dedication, love etc for scAmway. He is clearly part of the 99%+ scAmway fluff (they support kingpins’ “success” with their regular outside of scAmway incomes like from a Jay Ohh Bhee, etc).

    His comments’ time stamps provided further evidence of the fate of 99%+ of MLM participants I had come into awareness of. I knew that I did not want to count a 10 year mark while I was still toiling scAmway, a just wrong horse to back for the 99%+ of its adherents, certainly not more than I had already by that time. You can say his dated comments were one more element that helped me to see what scAmway really was – a pernicious pretend business in which the few at the top milk the rest of the masses.

  25. April 26, 2012 8:32 am

    @Former Round Table
    “If Amway were blameless, then why the Pokorny settlement? I think that says it all, IBOFB.”
    Exactly! It’s a standard practice for corps. to settle without admitting any wrong doing, thereby suppressing any chance of the real truth becoming known that they have interest to maintain hidden. Otherwise this lawsuit would have provided certainly a black eye for scAmway. It’s information control exercised upon the masses of it’s adherents and the unsuspecting public.

  26. April 26, 2012 8:40 am

    “In fact we were told by PC NOT to say the word in meetings while we were still in Amway!”
    I confirm ditto at BWW (as if like it’s really needed). We were instructed not to mention scAmway because people had misconceptions or preconceived ideas about it. We were taught (and we duplicated) if you don’t have to don’t mention it, just work to bring the prospect to the open first, as it was a better environment for them to learn it there. Just one of the many scAmway standard operating deceptions.

  27. April 26, 2012 8:55 am

    From stage some “leaders” would talk about how proud they were of Amway I mean scAmway, and they are not ashamed to be in it’s association (I thought yeah right you are a diamond). This is what you will most likely find on cd’s. But in smaller settings like night owls, 1 on 1’s, etc don’t mention it were the instructions. It was presented as it we were protecting the prospects from their own misconceptions of scAmway because they didn’t know how good this thing was and just how badly they needed it even though they didn’t know that. What a load of bull shizzle!

  28. Brent Hansen permalink
    April 26, 2012 3:00 pm

    Hey Rocket, Exambot, Webelieved….I am back!!

    Wait….where the heck is Steadson? Perhaps when I said, “bye for now” he thought I wasn’t coming back. Daaaaaaviiiiiiidddddd……where are you?

    Geez, just when I was going to start posting up our previous conversation from Facebook. The one where he threatened Michael Collins with legal action, and told me what an awesome Amway man he was.

    Ok…guess I will check back in a few more days. Oh yeah……Steadson, your still full of shit.

  29. April 29, 2012 4:25 pm

    I reached 23% in Amway in 1997, my high school senior year.

    I loved it and still do. Currently, I am a stockbroker trainee prepping for my series 7/63 exams. I am still in Amway and plan on retaking my Amway career soon.

    I never have minded the leaders making money of books & events etc. Amway always outsourced training to IBO’s 100%. IBO’s deserve to train fellow IBO’s at a reasonable profit. Yes, things got out of balance but Amway is taking more control of training groups lately. What made it look worse than it is was the secrecy.

    Amway has actively preached against the curiosity approach lately.

    Yes, Amway was too hands off and made its mistakes. On balance, however, it has done a marvelous job. In foreign markets, Amway runs historically a tighter ship exerting more control over training.

    On balance, Amway provides an opportunity to generate extra income to people looking for more than just working a regular cubicle job for life, self employed or looking to expand a traditional business.

    Like stock brokerage, it is based on failure and a numbers game. If you cannot handle that, move on.

    Currently, Amway is on a roll and is growing even in Canada/North America. its advertising campaign, Energy Drink Line and Sports Nutrition line is creating much momentum. The make up line is awesome! Of course, we still have the soap (people buy soap every month)

    Go Amway!


  30. May 3, 2012 1:12 pm

    exambot – personally I think having an Amway business still generating profits despite doing no work at all for more than a decade is a success. But hey, I know you folk think you get to define what success is for everyone else.

    rocket – I see you *still* seem to think that somebody not doing anything failing to become a Diamond means it’s a scam. I would think becoming a Diamond without doing anything would be better evidence.

    hansen – still waiting. my guess is, like so many, you’ve got your own particularly definitions of things (like “running a business”) rather than what they’d normally be defined as. I just submitted my tax return today. My Amway income from this country went under “hobby”, not “business”.

  31. May 3, 2012 1:13 pm

    Nancy – so sorry for your loss. Your husband was most likely a member of the IBOAI ( and they offer support as well as insurance coverage. Please contact them for more info.

  32. Esinayo1 permalink
    May 15, 2012 11:12 am

    I have tried to submit a claim concerning this lawsuit and the information is not clear on the given site. I was an IBO for more than 1 year with quixtar back in 2007-2009. I spent a lot of money on business materials that I actually still have. I bought books, CD’s and even a subscription to communicate that is unopened. When purchasing business materials it was always done on a cash basis. Even attending the business meetings you always had to pay cash. Unfortunately I don’t have any receipts for those purchases. I do have some receipts for things I bought on-line. I bought energy bars and energy drinks, food, vitamin supplements and other things to run my business. Unfortunately I was not successful. I was trying to become an Eagle. I would say I spent close to 1,500.00 trying to run this business. I know that is not alot of money but I was getting unemployment and working a part time job at the time. I really need to speak to someone about this can anyone help me?

  33. Speak Your Truth permalink
    May 18, 2012 6:28 pm


    If you click on the link in the post by Amthrax.. “Pokorny v. Quixtar Class Action Settlement” . Go to commonly asked questions #7 or #11 will probably get you to someone who can help you. Didn’t you get something in the mail, with this information on what to do? Hope this helps you.

  34. Julie permalink
    July 30, 2012 2:59 pm

    Hi. I’m confused about something. I need to provide documentation, receipts for tools and expenses. Is this for just our expenses after 2003? We lost plenty of money before that…

  35. sunshine permalink
    July 31, 2012 11:31 am

    We have an awesome upline who has never deceived us and has always had our best interest at heart. They benefit a little for the time they spent helping us in our business. We love Amway as a company. They are extremely honorable and have never made us spend money on anything we didn’t want to. We are blessed beyond measure due to the support system we partner with. They taught us early on how to become leaders and have a healthy marriage. We also love the products and feel they are well worth their cost. Thanks Amway!!

  36. TheBigPayBack permalink
    July 31, 2012 10:57 pm

    I’m getting paid!!!!! I was lied too every step of the way by World Wide Dream builder’s, I mean AMWAY!!!! It is a CULT!!! Targeting people going through hard times, especially bad marriages and relationships! Promising to fix it!!! “Be a man, take control of your wife and your household,” as the ranting goes! Stories told like this, “I was hooked on porn sites before I started with World Wide Dream Builder’s” That’s real!!! Getting into people homes and bringing their brand of religion and morality to control the unknowing. Sound familiar? Going after your address book and contacts like vultures, oh it gets deep!!!! I went to a annual conference and they had some dude, ex-pastor that was selling his book for $99 plus his signature!!! A must have…At the “Non-denomination” service that Sunday, he started asking people to come down and accept Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior!!!!! While their selling shit out front!!!! taking more money out of IBO’s pockets while their still trying to pay $400 a month of product to stay current, oh, and don’t for forget the KATE bill… the drones moved in steady formation….and KATE? LMAO!!!! 100 KATE’s a day and my up Line was like, “you didn’t read all your KATE”S” no a$$ wipe I have school!!!!! I didn’t drink the Kool Aid folks, I got the hell out of there!!!!! I’m glad the guy’s are going after the cheater’s, deceiver’s, straight up liar’s, using Jesus Christ as a slug hammer on the head’s of people looking to better there situations i hard economic times!!! Now get some!!!!

  37. margot permalink
    August 1, 2012 6:15 am

    I am still trying to submit my information for participation in this class action. It is not very straight forward. I don’t understand why it can’t be simple. I f you have the information like your old IBO number they should be able to verify it, ( they are going to validate it anyway to make sure). I bought many many tools from then and had to purchase on a cash basis and I don’t have receipts but I still do have the books Cd’s and Kate package that I purchased.

  38. miffed! permalink
    August 1, 2012 9:03 am

    I have read the Q&A but i do have some quick questions.
    1-are product purchases from quixtar refundable?
    2-Is there even a need to include C.Card statements showing those purchases, goal being to be refunded? or are product purchases just not part of refunds?
    3-Some associated costs like gas to conventions, hotel, etc appear only in my c.card statements. Are those under consideration and if so, what’s the best way to show that they were indeed associated with the business, not just me going to some hotel for personal/individual use?
    4-Upline used to give us those quixtar invoices for the weekly sot/book and sometimes functions tickets. We paid either in cash or check. I have the invoices but the proof of them being paid, checks, is not available from the bank this stuff being over seven years old. Are those invoices good enough? What can i do here to make sure I get reimbursed?
    5-Is communikate refundable?
    6-For those who are submitting claims what are some of the tips you can share?

  39. miffed! permalink
    August 1, 2012 9:07 am

    One more thing will including all these invoices prove anything? See question 4 above.

  40. miffed! permalink
    August 1, 2012 6:20 pm

    Thank you!

  41. Brent Hansen permalink
    August 1, 2012 7:02 pm

    @TheBigPayBack….hahahaha, how do you really feel? Hilarious! Thanks for sharing.

  42. Deanar permalink
    August 1, 2012 10:00 pm

    Hahaha, Brent, I was mistified when I was with them!!!! I when to a meeting one night and meet some other guy when my up line came over and sorta pulled on my jacket…. He said, “what are you doing” I said I was meeting people… he said, “yeah, not them”. Hahahaha WTF!!!! The main guy in the area, I’ll keep his name out of this, told at least 5 different story’s of how he started in the business… What? I would ask my up line, “but thought….he…said…”. Lol… I don’t know if I’ll get some of this money, but it sure feels good to unload!!!!’ peace!

  43. Julie permalink
    August 2, 2012 10:32 am

    Webelieved, you have been an incredible resource here. Thank you!

    We were with World Wide Dreambuilders and honestly, it wasn’t all bad. I enjoyed working on something with my husband. The problem was, when we had a bunch of our downline quit, our upline told us we couldn’t pass up our standing orders if we were “serious” about the business. So we carried 16 standing orders for months. Thousands of dollars. And of course, our volume couldn’t dip. So instead of decreased PV, we were told to buy product and call it “stock”. We felt trapped and started putting more and more on our credit cards. We didn’t want to let our upline down or make them think we weren’t serious.

    I tried to sell some retail to make up for our costs, but nobody wanted to spend $22.00 for a box of 8 chewy rice bars. So we quit answering our CommuniKates (UGH!!! Don’t miss Kate!) and stopped attending functions. And it was a relief when our upline let us go.

    I hope I can get something…anything, back. It will make us feel better. Thanks again webelieved.

  44. August 2, 2012 10:51 am

    @Julie – how did your upline communicate to you that you had to carry the extra standing orders and purchase extra “stock”? Email? Verbally? CommuniKate?

  45. Joecool permalink
    August 2, 2012 12:25 pm


    When I was an IBO, I was told the same thing. My sponsor referred me to a “true north tape” (I foeget the number). Brad Duncan taught on tape, that you keep and pay for standing orders if your downlines quit. He said (not verbatim) that what are you going to do? Call upline who calls upline who calls upline just to cancel a standing order?

    Strange, they sure didn’t mind calling upline who calls upline who calls upline to add a standing order.

  46. Brent Hansen permalink
    August 2, 2012 5:52 pm

    @Julie, I would love to kick your “uplines” a$$, that is horrible, I am sorry.

  47. August 4, 2012 8:09 pm

    Julie, I am also with WWDB, I always counseled my downline to release people from standing order if they were not enthusiastic and positive about it. If you kept paying for tapes/CDs that people were not buying you must have had a misunderstanding. I am an Emerald in the Amway business and have earned many large bonuses over the years. It has been a great experience, though sometimes frustrating…Not growing fast enough etc, however,I don’t blame anyone else that i have not achieved Diamond yet unlike some of the people on this forum.
    I will say that the profits made from BSMs were intended to offset costs incurred when driving/flying to help downline build their businesses. The profits from BSMs never covered those costs but did help to defray the costs. I can’t speak for Orrin and his guys, it seemed they were just raking people over…. We are always willing to help people that want to build an Amway business. No smoke and mirrors, just the real thing. Dg

  48. ldsjulie permalink
    August 5, 2012 1:12 pm


    Our sponsors referred us to Brad Duncan’s teachings of keeping standing orders. They told us verbally through Nuts and Bolts meetings and also over Kate. I remember crying during one of our counseling sessions with them, just finally breaking down over the debt we were accumulating. They told us that carrying the standing orders would be our MOTIVATION to build the business and add more legs. We wanted to pass up a couple of them at least, but they said it meant we weren’t serious.

    I look back and I’m mad at myself for being so weak. We just fell for it. We believed we could live like the Diamonds do.

    On the flip side, I have a 30 year supply of SA-8. 🙂

  49. Speak Your Truth permalink
    August 6, 2012 12:36 pm


    I hope you don’t mind answering a few questions. You say you are an “Emerald” so are you a “founders” Emerald and continually repeat that pin month after month year after year or did you just hit it for those magical 6 months to “qualify” and you continue to claim that status forever in your groups? Does the TOP Ranks share their genuine rank with the masses? Did you ‘buy’ your rank or “stretch” anyone of those months to achieve such a prestigious level and/or was it through legitimate (non-IBO) customers? And since you seem to “counsel” your downline ‘correctly’ and honestly, then do you share the truth of the odds, attrition, and saturation facts or also tell them that 99% end up losing money in “the business?”

    That would seem to be the right thing for you to do when you stated: “I always counseled my downline to release people from standing order if they were not enthusiastic and positive about it.” Do you believe that “your counseling” is the “rule” rather than the exception in the business? Have you read Merchants of Deception, if not you have a “free” link on this site, you might find it eerily relateable or not but I would recommend it.

    Deanna, I got it that of course your “counseling” with “your downline” is obviously NOT the same as what Julie’s upline told her (and she obviously followed but did she and everyone is told but did she “win”?) ALL are told they must “listen & do what their Upline tells them” or they won’t be successful, right? I am a little confused why you brought up your “counseling” or how “your counseling” helps Julie or changes her experience in anyway or what would you recommend Julie have told her upline? Or Perhaps you could clarify for the readers what exactly you think she misunderstood?

    Or is it you who misunderstood?

    Julie stated: “The problem was, when we had a bunch of our downline quit, our upline told us we couldn’t pass up our standing orders if we were “serious” about the business. So we carried 16 standing orders for months. Thousands of dollars. And of course, our volume couldn’t dip. So instead of decreased PV, we were told to buy product and call it “stock”.

    So it seems crystal clear to me why Julie quit and obviously was the smartest thing for her to do (stop the financial bleeding and bad advice),not to mention it is an unstainable business model and all the other corruption that is swept under the rug… rather than take that advice and continue on, wouldn’t you think..because that greedy “advice” she received obviously was to ONLY serve her upline’s bank account!

  50. Speak Your Truth permalink
    August 6, 2012 12:43 pm


    I completely understand and it is certainly a ‘common problem’ with the “training” and “counseling” you received. Contrary of course to those who claim they don’t “blame” and then blame and believe it must be either YOU who misunderstands your upline’s counseling?

    We all know from experience this is a decade old problem and it continues to be denied, or swept under the rug? I do understand and believe you followed exactly what were told and from experience KNOW this is the exact “messages” along with many thousands of other mixed messages that are given; it is a shame the industry doesn’t just admit the truth, it isn’t like many many people haven’t shared this!

    There might be a sucker born every minute but I don’t believe you will find anyone gullible, naïve or who will fall for the least from this site and many others, who are no longer in denial and are helping others validate and see what they already know is truth. 🙂

    Good luck with the rest of your life, the lessons will carry on and others will find their true person with honest people. 🙂 

  51. Brent Hansen permalink
    August 6, 2012 12:48 pm

    @ldsjulie, having spent 12 years (1994-2006) with Amway myself, I am fully aware and can empathize with your situation I live in Idaho and am very well acquainted with many of the shenanigans and atrocities that were perpetuated by most the veneer “leaders” as the Amway systems expanded out into the western United States. Although not part of WWDB, I was able to spend some time around both Bill Hawkins, and Brad & Julie Duncan, so I am familiar with who they are, and what they do.

    In contrast to Deanna’s bold statement and endorsement above, I had the exact opposite experience. Bottom line is there isn’t enough money in the Amway business to justify the work you will have to do to earn it. Interesting enough was the fact that our “system” money was usually 3 to 4 times anything that could be earned from Amway. My upline “Diamond” who actually only requalified as an Emerald, then Sapphire, then a Platinum, was earning in excess of $300K per year solely from selling tools to his group which consisted of one huge leg of about 10,000 and several small side legs.

    I honestly cannot believe that WWDB could be much different, and I would like to offer Deanna a challenge to come clean with total transparency. If what she says is true, then I stand corrected and will publicly acknowledge that fact. If in fact she is bending the truth a little I would expect her to do the same.

    My guess is that Deanna is stretching the truth a little, they always do. If you care to back up your earnings from both system, and Amway with a little evidence, I would like to see that. If not, you might as well join Steadson’s team, after all, he is the ultimate Amway guru anyway, you would fit right in.

  52. Speak Your Truth permalink
    August 6, 2012 12:51 pm

    One last thing Deanna~

    I found it very odd and was wondering if you could clarify: “I always counseled my downline to release people from standing order if they were not enthusiastic and positive about it.”

    Does it require “counseling” for “releasing people from standing order”? Really? We never “counseled” anyone to “release” anyone. If someone wanted off system, it was simple…you took them off, period. No counseling required.

  53. Speak Your Truth permalink
    August 6, 2012 1:08 pm


    “Interesting enough was the fact that our “system” money was usually 3 to 4 times anything that could be earned from Amway.”

    That was our case also. I could go on and on about the system profits. And I must clear up the BSM profits were never and are NOT to offset the cost of travel etc…it is a multimillion if not billion dollar industry!

    The Top have fleeced multimillions of dollars per year for Decades off the masses for that “offsetting of cost” in the name of God. Where is the honesty?…It is no longer a ‘secret.’

    Although many multitudes were lied to and withheld that vital information about the BSM profits for decades and those liars pretend they never lied and act as if it has always been common knowledge? Perhaps because until now there hasn’t been much recourse.

    Someday..haha…perhaps they will admit to all the other lies, deception, and corruption, and it will also be common knowledge about the “odds” of ever making it! Perhaps those lief changers who perpetuate the scam on the masses will have a true change of heart, practice what they preach and “teach” the true “comp plan” reality. 🙂

  54. Julie permalink
    August 7, 2012 11:16 am


    I’m not sure what the misunderstanding would derive from. We did exactly what our upline counseled us to do. Our call in night was Monday and I can still recall the nausea I would feel when our order wasn’t big enough, and frantically adding things to it. Our sponsor’s sponsor was our up line Emerald. I think the breaking point for us really came when, after going into debt to try to keep up our tapes, Kate, stock, ect…our Emerald wanted to sit down and go over our “budget”. I was sure that this would show our upline that we really were trying to build the business, do our personal use 500 PV as was taught (300 pers and 200 retail).

    Upon seeing our budget, our Emerald told us that we had an extra $200 a month in tithing to our church and that is where we could get the money to support our business. My husband told him politely that we were not negotiating on paying our tithing. I then watched him become unglued and tell my husband loudly that we were unwilling to make the changes necessary to grow. He said that we could give more to our church later but this was money our business needed now. I’m glad he said it actually, because it was the camel back-breaking straw.

  55. August 7, 2012 12:24 pm

    Julie, I am so sorry this happened. We were just
    Not taught that way. My upline diamonds
    Are the Felbers, they taught us the business.
    Terry traveled to Wisconsin SO Many times to help us. Never charged us a penny but like I said in my other post the tool money was intended to defray costs of working distance businesses, regardless of what that other guy said.
    We went Emerald in 1994 and about 2yrs after that went founders emerald had one year we fell out of Qual (one of our platinums died and Dean Kosage stole a 2500 IBO). I was really MAD! No one in WWDB EVER stole IBOs !!! We are now re-q Fndrs Emer again (been working hard). Your experience is so foreign to me , all I can say is I’m sorry. It is so sad that there are always a few who want short cuts. Ron Puryear says the business has a way of spitting out the dishonest ones. Too bad it wasn’t soon enough to spare you the grief. Your husband made the right choice. Again, I am sorry you went through all of this and I better understand Amway’s predicament with BSMs but the fact of the matter is, in a business like this people do need some kind of consistent encouragement . I don’t know if I helped you at all, but one thing is clear: your emerald, (whoever he was ) was greedy and dishonest. We have found Amway to be a great company it’s too bad you had a dishonest upline… Deanna

  56. August 7, 2012 1:26 pm

    Wow, you are full of poison. My comments to Julie were out of sympathy and to show that her experience was the exception, not the rule in WWDB. I can not speak for other LOS groups. But she had a dishonest upline. It happens. Unusual but it does. There were many people affected by Bernie Madoff too. So do you have a “Hate” investment blog too? Are all investment brokers BAD?
    Don’t blame Amway for what dishonest IBOs chose to do. If she had talked to Ron or Theron, or written to them, I believe the issue would have been resolved. By contrast, if my upline had intimidated me like that SOMEONE would have heard about it…. To answer your question about our Emerald qual…. We have been Emer since 1994, had a couple of bumpy years but req Founders Emerald and got 150k bonus and now the 75k plus 15k this year. Those are annual. Best part is we got Free from J.O.B. (my dream). AT&T was not my cup of tea. So, is that what you wanted to know? Do you think that when we had a retail store we didn’t have ups and downs in our business? Why is it that you think an Amway business is any different? We had a good friend die, he was personally sponsored and sapphire at the time. Do you think that business never missed a beat? It did, so, we are working in that leg…. What is your issue? When we fell out of Qual we were in a “grace” year so bonuses stayed the same. If people asked- we told them the truth, but we weren’t shouting from rooftops that we had not requalified. Do you think we should have? So, how much do you make? Why is it okay to ask someone that about Amway income but not other professions? I think it’s rude, why do you think it’s okay?

  57. Freedomhaha permalink
    August 7, 2012 5:01 pm

    Deanna- Out of curiosity what percentage of people on your team are making a profit ?

  58. Brent Hansen permalink
    August 7, 2012 5:01 pm

    Classic Deanna! I am only challenging what your wrote concerning the tool money being a “supplemental income” only? Are you prepared to prove what you wrote?

    Spare me the classic Amway vs. traditional retail store rhetoric. I have heard all of those, and used most of them myself.

    By the way, is this true Deanna, do 99.99% of the people who get involved lose money? Why is that Deanna? Can you say mathematics? You know that already, simply open up your back office and look how many people you have who are earning enough to pay for their 100 pv each month. We both know the numbers, don’t we?

    Are you sure your not David Steadson using a pseudonym?

    Click to access WheresTheHarm.pdf

  59. Freedomhaha permalink
    August 7, 2012 5:04 pm

    Brent- Not one out of the twelve people I have asked that question to on this blog have answered me. Weird.

  60. August 7, 2012 6:00 pm

    Percentage of people? I can say that those people that are “doing something” are making a profit. I have IBOs that have NO DOWNLINE making between $600 – $1500 per month.. but these are people that are establishing customers and they work on it. I have 4000pv making $2500, and others doing the NWNY weight loss program with groups making good bonuses and retail profit $2000-$3000. I have others that make nothing. There are many people that are in the business as personal users and not even working on “making a profit” you look at people that produce and usually that percentage is lower, have you ever heard of the 80-20 rule? Besides, as you go Emerald you no longer “see” individuals that are under your Platinums, so it is not very simple to figure out. But I do know that my Platinums are making good money and will be qualifying for a 15k bonus this year. But I suppose that is just chump change to high rollers like you.

  61. Brent Hansen permalink
    August 7, 2012 6:05 pm

    80-20 rule Deanna or 99.99%, which is it? You cannot have it both ways, either you are right and the world is wrong, or vice versa. Do you care to address the above questions, or simply throw up another red herring?

  62. August 7, 2012 6:15 pm

    Brent, What I said about the retail store… is true. It is not rhetoric at all. We had a retail store. And it was much more work and harder to make a profit than in Amway.
    And regarding the tool profits; what are you talking about, am I prepared to prove it? What do you want my tax returns?
    Who died and made you God? The 99% lose money because they don’t pay you for only using products….duh! How many checks have you gotten from Walmart lately? It must be where you shop. Will they be sending you a check for $15,000 like my Platinums? Or will you have to clip a few coupons. When I went into retail I had to borrow a lot of money and pay interest on it and pay rent and pay for advertising and buy stock and hope people would buy it before it got obsolete. We hoped to make a profit. With Amway I have none of that. If you can’t see Amway as a great opportunity why don’t you just go start your own company and give it a try? I am surprised you have so much energy to put into the negative garbage you post here. It is clear to me why you never built the business, you are too negative.

  63. August 7, 2012 6:19 pm

    99% was your figure, not mine.

  64. Brent Hansen permalink
    August 7, 2012 6:20 pm

    Actually Deanna, it was a compilation of around 20 years of research. Did you open the site and look at it?

  65. August 7, 2012 6:22 pm

    I am glad you are not in my downline. What a project. Good night.

  66. Brent Hansen permalink
    August 7, 2012 6:24 pm

    What would a Founders Emerald be doing on here anyway? Having your doubts deanna? Does John know you are here on this site? What would your upline say about your visit here, is it permitted? Have a wonderful night too.

  67. Brent Hansen permalink
    August 7, 2012 6:26 pm

    How come Greg and Kathy aren’t around anymore, or are they? What happened, thought they were Diamonds?

  68. Brent Hansen permalink
    August 7, 2012 6:29 pm

    They were your upline were they not? And shouldn’t a five year old Diamond be able to pay a small tax bill?

    “On November 11, 1999, the Wisconsin Court System filed a case number 1999TW001590 citing a case of the Department of Revenue vs Gilmour, Gregory. Kathleen Gilmour was a co-defendent on the case. It was in relation to a civil judgement for a deliquent tax warrant for the amount of $6,722.32. The judgement for the case was on July 14, 1999. Of the $6,722.32, $6,036.00 was in relation to income tax and the remaining $686.32 was interest on the verdict.”

    Are they family as well deanna, just curious, you do have the same last name do you not?

  69. Speak Your Truth permalink
    August 7, 2012 8:32 pm

    Brent you must have struck a dissonance nerve with Deanna? She doesn’t even want you in her downline…that is too funny!

    What happened to the sympathetic, Deanna? Too many hard questions that require transparency and getting a little too close to truth apparently.


    WoW what happened to the nice sympathetic Deanna? I won’t waste my time addressing all what you say…. but here is something for you…There is no “poison” here…just ZERO tolerance for bullsh*t, lies, deception, and manipulation so their is no need to fake being “positive.” Most on here cannot be fooled by the Fakers..they are usually found out pretty quickly. 🙂 They end up showing their true colors and don’t stick around long either.

    Since I don’t know much about WWDB although they are all the same and pretty predicable..I did find an interesting article I wanted to share with you. It has quite a few quotes apparently taken right from the WWDB site and it appears WWDB and “your” saintly upline, who “taught you the business”..(quoted about 1/2 way down the article) is NO different than the rest in the AMO cultish & “duplicated” world.

    I am pretty confident you aren’t ‘taught’ any different. We were taught NOT to say Amway too nor did we say Quixtar. Do you see that to be Misleading & unethical? Seems to me like misleading messages and deception (we know are used by all AMO TOP Kingpins) was as live and well in your group as any other. Another predicatable and standard practice of the AMO Kingpin ‘teachers’.

    BTW~ I noticed you only answered a few questions but left out responding to some all together, why would that be, Deanna?

    Perhaps Julie would also like to read the link with how ‘leaders’ in WWDB and your upline taught you, “by example” of course..the only way, right?”

    Good luck Deanna, hope someday you can be honest with yourself and others.

  70. Speak Your Truth permalink
    August 8, 2012 8:20 am


    I will give you some credit for coming back and at least admitting to Julie her upline was dishonest and obviously greedy, most wouldn’t even do that.. but then you are surprised that it happened and followed up with the other rhetoric and bs which couldn’t possibly be the “rule” do you honestly believe this, I don’t think so not as an “Emerald.”
    Perhaps others don’t get the message as straight forward as Julie received it but we all know everyone gets that message and thousands more to keep others buying the tools).
    Here’s the kicker…You then said it was “foreign to you?”

    What part of the lack of ethics was foreign to you, (you have been in since at least 1994 so I am not buying your shocked response to any ethical problem or it could be foreign to you)… so which is foreign..Julie’s situation or when Dean Kosage stole your 2500 leg? Do you thing this is “unusal” but “happens” too?

    I don’t blame you a bit for being “Mad”…our whole team was stolen, so see Deanna we do have more than one thing in common.

    Could you also clarify for the readers what “doing something” means, I am sure those losing and giving up their paychecks, sacrificing, paying their bills late, racking cc to the limit, giving up all their life savings, 401K, jobs, etc..They desperately want to know, without fluff, “what if’s” and the whole slew of rhetoric ..just straight up how to make a profit!

    I have no doubts those who are getting started with you would also like to know what is required of them “doing something?”..Please don’t come back with “selling products to customerw” are dealing with gullible, naive folk here.. we know better. Because everyone comes in wanting to know HOW they will make a profit, it is a “business opportunity” is it not.

    If you do have the courage to come back please spare us the rhetoric, it is annoying and boring most people on here have “built” it for way too many years and had multiply thousands of people and had to learn about the deception, betrayal and many other unethical garbage through suffering and a very tough process. Just as I hope you do someday, Deanna. We are not your enemy as you have been “taught”; the black and white thinking and us vs. them.

    I know you believe you are “helping” others “win” but feel trapped…we DID too. I couldn’t be happier now and am grateful I am no longer self-deceived and thank God I never lived the rest of my life out to then find out what I know now.

  71. Speak Your Truth permalink
    August 8, 2012 8:23 am

    “You are NOT dealing with gullible, naive folk here..” sorry for any and all errors.

  72. August 8, 2012 9:57 am

    It is important to note that there are some high-pin Amway distributors that have a strong focus on building their networking having a strong customer base (i.e. retail sales) and less on maximizing their tools business. We should not lump them into the bucket of those we do have a problem with.

  73. August 8, 2012 10:24 am

    I feel bad that I may have started something on here. We had a really terrible experience which cost us dearly. But I still think there are good people in Amway. I think Deanna is probably one of them.

    Thank you to everyone who responded to my post. I feel a little less “stupid” now for the mistakes we made in believing our upline. Have a wonderful day everyone. 🙂

  74. August 8, 2012 11:02 am

    Amthrax, you are correct. Like the Koreans… they’ve taken the customer sales to a whole new level…

  75. Speak Your Truth permalink
    August 8, 2012 11:14 am

    Julie you didn’t start anything…thanks for sharing and we all can empathize with your story.

    I too believe Deanna is good deep down, many good intelligent people get sucked in. Here is where I have an issue there are many truths that are withheld and hidden intentionally, too many to mention, the truth of what it really takes to build “the business!”

    Every single Diamond I have ever heard speak says it is “the system that makes you successful”..So it is far more from the system than customers! And in one breath told it is “just like any other business” and then the other side of their mouths they say “we are different” what ever fits the agenda. ( I could spew alot of rhetoric that I have heard from many “diamonds” dating clear back to the Yager functions).

    This is what I know happens to thousands after years of being lied to; they have had experiences like yours and a whole set of their own not so positive ones… if and when you are blessed early on or fortunate enough to see the truth, you rarely if ever hear a “positive” raving review.. what they have all said from stage and what they do behind the curtain seems very contradictory. I believe their is plenty of evidence, books, websites and lawsuits to verify this.

    So It is those then who still continue to feed false hope and not give all the information (if they know it) to others to make a competely informed decision and then blame or make excuses that it couldn’t possibly be the broken corrupt systems. But as one can see at least finally Amway because I believe of lawsuits and other issues are accepting some responsiblity for what they have let go on for decades! And the damages done to so many in so many ways because they allowed it to happen.

    From my experience and listening to all the Yager Diamonds on Tapes, it would be hard to believe others don’t opperate the same..They wait and feed information on a need to know basis and why is this? Because they have to get people so fully invested they feel trapped and they KNOW people will quit before they get started without some deception! Why didn’t our uplines and groups say the word “Amway” or “Quixtar” because orrin woodward KNEW most people would run!

    So, I don’t disagree that some ‘groups’ teach getting customers but I have never heard of a group who didn’t use “a system” of books, tapes, functions. Their teachings from Diamond to Diamond may have verying degrees of ethics and teaching but overall it is the same. And as far as some getting customers I have no doubt they do but as far as that being how people achieve their ranks, I am not convinced especially meeting the required ones.. I highly doubt it, and those who may have a few…to few to mention.

    So, imo and what I know and believe those who continue “following” the same old rhetoric haven’t changed and if they are completely honest when bringing others in I doubt that too and especially if they have a “system” then I believe they have sold their “goodness” for the almighty dollar.

  76. Mike Collins permalink
    August 8, 2012 12:13 pm

    Brent: who is John? Who are Greg and Kathy? You seem to know Deanna. Do you know her from Amway? Are these relatives of hers or are they in the “business” with her?

  77. August 8, 2012 12:14 pm

    And you’d be wrong in our case… this is my last post. I just felt I had to defend the company that helped me get out of my job that I so desperately wanted to quit and had no other way to do it except for the Amway biz. If it had not been for the standing order tapes and functions, we surely would not have had the focus to build our biz. I do not feel that i need to apologize to anyone that we have a large group of people that stick with us for one reason or another… “Doing something” in our terminology is showing the plan at least 12 times per month, better if they can do 16. My husband built our biz on 16 per month… as advised by our diamond… need that much activity to see growth.
    The people that I know in WWDB are above reproach, please don’t dispute that because that is MY experience, but there are always a few aren’t there…
    I just don’t understand why you continue to lump us all together… please don’t compare me or my upline to OW and his TEAM guys, we never did what they were teaching.
    Good luck in your endeavors. I hope you find fulfillment in something you can put your heart and soul into, like we have in our business and your heart will heal from all of the bitterness you display here.
    I wish you the best, Speak Your Truth.

  78. Speak Your Truth permalink
    August 8, 2012 12:32 pm


    You must not have viewed the link. You act as if you don’t use a system now or speak of it in past tense, is this because you no longer use that system or is that another evasion? I don’t need Amway or a highly corrupted system to find fullfilment Deanna. You either are very naive or your upline is really a saint..I doubt either; but Same back to you, Deanna.

  79. August 8, 2012 12:55 pm

    You got it. My upline is a saint.

  80. Speak Your Truth permalink
    August 8, 2012 1:00 pm

    Denial is a beautiful thing isn’t it Deanna?

  81. Speak Your Truth permalink
    August 8, 2012 3:15 pm

    It seems in “your case” denial pays pretty well at least for you, pretty confident the majority of your downline is probably struggling though. Is your 80K per year from Amway ‘only’ and if so what are you making from “your saints” system that only collects enough to defer your costs?…lol.

    Just an FYI Deanna, orrin woodward never got started in Amway until 1993…likely after you?And most likely after your “saint” of an upline, where do you think orrin woodward ‘learned’ how to build the buisness and where he learned to mob and bully and start his own corrupted system?.That I know for sure wasn’t started to just defer costs for out of town groups.. but then we can be honest now can’t we?

    Oh I know orrin couldn’t have learned it from poor ole saintly “don’t clump us with him” WWDB Diamonds.. Who were speaking on a Yager stage or no?I could be wrong on that, I don’t know if WWDB came from Yager or not?

    One last thing Deanna, I have no respect for anyone including you who evades questions intentionally, worried more about spreading a ‘good’ reputation defense and evasive than being honest. Another coincidence or the same teaching? Didn’t you hear “those who have nothing to hide…hide nothing?” Well, probably not..that is probably not your ‘case’ either.

    But I found your statement and question about Bernie Madoff very disturbing… asking us if we started a “Hate” investment blog?

    Must be that “system” teaching, we don’t have in common. They call people telling the truth on them “haters” too, hmmm.. probably just a coincidence..But not sure who you were referring to on starting that blog but Wouldn’t that be a question for his “hater” son(s), you could ask one of them but would think that would be pretty cruel the other one commited suicide after they turned him in.

    You see Deanna, they had this thing called integrity…But as for a comparrison from the System and Bernie and the devastation on the masses; financial and emotional damage, fleecing and scamming…you might be onto something.

    You never did answer if you read Merchants of Deception, did you?..Ever read the “Blakey Report?”

  82. Brent Hansen permalink
    August 8, 2012 3:33 pm

    @Speak, actually, truth be known, I bet you that even Bernie Madoff had a higher percentage of people in profit than MLM does. Look at the link I posted a few posts back, it shows a comparison between all pyramid schemes, and gambling, unfortunately deanna’s beloved business rates last.

    @Michael, great questions, and also questions that only deanna could answer completely, however seems to sidestep at every turn. The pro-MLM people have a knack for never responding to direct questions, and smothering a thread with red herring arguments and rhetoric. They call it “overcoming objections” I believe.

    How bout it deanna, care to respond to Michael’s questions and explain who Greg and Kathy are, and why they struggled to pay a tax debt even though they were Amway Diamonds? Were these folks some of the “dishonest” ones you referred to previously who Ron Puryear said the “business weeds out”?

  83. Brent Hansen permalink
    August 8, 2012 3:59 pm

    @Julie, you have started nothing here. deanna started it when she came on this blog and stated that her “tool money” was only supplemental to her “A” income. All of us who have built tool businesses can testify that income from tools far exceeds the pittance they call a performance bonus.

    If deanna ever decides to be honest with herself, and stop being so self-centered, all she has to do is open her back office, and look at how many people are earning enough to cover their “business haha” expenses. Then divide that number into the amount of people on her team, and the real numbers will become very apparent.

    You see deanna, this isn’t personal, I know your making money hip, hip, hooray! The real question is how do you feel earning your Q-12 bonus knowing that hundreds of people in your group are losing big time? If your ok with that, then who am I too pass judgment?

  84. August 9, 2012 6:50 am

    @Brent, I haven’t read all of this thread, but this says it all –

    You know that already, simply open up your back office and look how many people you have who are earning enough to pay for their 100 pv each month

    You’re entire bogus analysis is based on the false idea that purchases made for personal use are a business expense.

    Have you tried running that one by the IRS? What are you smoking? Good grief.

  85. Mike Collins permalink
    August 9, 2012 2:33 pm

    Steadson: YOUR entire bogus retort to Brent is based on the false idea that the purchases being made are actually for personal use and NOT so they can qualify to participate in the compensation plan. WTF are YOU

  86. August 10, 2012 12:03 pm

    Said deanna on August 8, 2012 12:14 pm
    “…this is my last post”

    Said Deanna on August 8, 2012 12:55 pm
    “You got it. My upline is a saint.”

    If not both at least one must be a flat out lie, either @12.14 or @ 12.55pm. Anywho not a good set as fnd/emerald.

  87. August 10, 2012 1:18 pm

    @Deanna August 4, 2012 8:09 pm
    “BSMs were intended to offset costs incurred when driving/flying to help downline build their businesses”

    If I didn’t know otherwise I’d say oh, how noble. But I’ll say bull shizzle! That’s kingpins’ attempt to sanitize the bull shizzle – double, triple, quadruple AMO profits over and beyond scAmway’s incomes, Rich DeVos’ thorn on his side in Directly Speaking Tape talks (Google them).

    @deanna August 7, 2012 6:15 pm Said
    “How many checks have you gotten from Wal-Mart lately?”

    Ha ha ha. Oh puleeeze! This is one of the most stupid questions ambots like to throw around. So dumb, they stop and refrain from that one.

    Let me ask you a question (in true Ambot style) what makes you think the rest of humanity outside of ambots (or us here) have only one way of dealing with Wal-Mart, what was that … to receive checks?

    BTW $15000 for platinums? Really Deanna? Sounds good until expenses are factored in. Not impressed.

    “BSM…it is a multimillion if not billion dollar industry!”

    No doubt. Otherwise why would the diamonds sue each other as they have done if BSMs were just monies (a pittance?) to defray the cost of driving/flying to help downline build their businesses? If I was Britt or Yaeger and the income from my minions’ “flying/driving” was $40 million annually to my pockets (by mid 1990’s figures) I pro’ly say to ’em at late late night owls/meetings just keep on flying (and don’t mess with it (shizzle) or I will see you in court!) And that is the truth that had been denied for a long time, darn this internet!

    @Speak said
    “Every single Diamond I have ever heard speak says it is “the system that makes you successful”..So it is far more from the system than customers!”

    Damn straight! Heard that one too and it’s on numerous CDs. There are so many evidences available to take these organized crimesters down but they got the FTC masters in their pockets. For now.

    @Julie said
    “I feel bad that I may have started something on here.”

    If so I see nothing wrong with that. If anything it sparks a lively debate. It lets current and potential ambots gain perspectives of mlm world from inside the coliseum, you know and they can make up their own minds. Especially when mlm apologetics engage in dances with wolv… I mean engage in circumlocution and dance around truth. Nevertheless, many people are benefiting from the resulting knowledge now and in the future.

  88. Speak Your Truth permalink
    August 10, 2012 2:22 pm


    Hmm..ha! But we all now know …WWDB is not “taught” to lie…”they are above reproach!”…so how dare anyone question such authority! That’s the story she ‘wants’ to stick to anyway..So I am sure it was just an oversight on our part or better yet a “misunderstanding!”

    Gotta love the answer about “doing something” to get a “profit”…hilarious… she NEVER mentioned ‘selling’ or ‘customers’ … hmm… “Doing something” is just 12… she then changed it to really I mean 16 plans (month, year, only once, not sure?) And then everyone on her team makes a “profit?!!”

    I am sooo confused…I thought Amway was a “product business?” I knew we were lied too! (Why..Deanna must have said oh she-it that is not what the “system teaches”…shouldn’t have said 12 saintly upline could be reading this or Amway.. So, which is it?..Wonder how much “profit” 12 plans brings?

    We got jipped…Perhaps their “system” really is different haha? Wonder why orrin used to say NO ONE..or other system pays as fairly as “HIS.”

    We should be gazillionaires then if it only takes “16 plans” to make a “profit!”

    Our ” woodward=yager system teaching”.. sucked then compared to Deanna’s beloved WWDB.

    Dang..why did we do soooo much more than 16 plans, wonder if she will be my ‘sponsor’ if I promise to not be a “project” like Brent..lmao!

    So, That’s all..that’s it Deanna?…16 plans and you make “a profit” on your team?!.. Boy we really got screwed.. We were “taught” it took A LOT more than just showing 16 plans to make a “profit”…

    You MUST First…Have a DREAM , then Contact, STP, Follow-up and then rotate, Deanna must not have been “taught” that… then it was least 15 plans 20 if you really wanted to turn up the heat… per month! Then it took to INVEST in yourself and YOUR OWN (joke)..orrin’s business and then they like Deanna apparently wasn’t sure of themselves and said;.. it really took… “15 follow-ups”, and then worship, worship, worship…they said “edify” same difference in the cult environment.. and you MUST.. HAVE A and follow EVERYTHING your “mentor” tells you to do..Even if they got started 5 minutes before you..haha (kinda like twins there is always one just a wee bit older haha) and you MUST follow the system to a tee, and whatever you do.. DO NOT reinvent that wheel!) ..And…you have to SPEND every dime you have and then some on , (this requires the skill set of robbing Peter to Pay Paul)..invest in YOUR OWN I mean orrin woodwards Business, AND you must also invest in yourself..that is the tool profits for the PC lifestyle’s… .AND…then you MUST BUY from yer self, And.. then BUY and listen to that amazing “top 50” over and over and over and every latest and greatest tool we come out with or rebrand 100x and OUR very own authored… revised book too many to count…even if you have a million of the same.. (And we change the TOP 50 every 6 months…so get used to it.. don’t forget anyone can go “Diamond on an island, with that must have top 50!

    Then you MUST attend EVERY single function,(if you miss one it “sets your business (profits) back a whole 6 months!…oh no!! not do that! And..then there’s more…you MUST attend every other flippity-floppity meeting they have and continue to dream up to make MONEY off you (it really means jump when the cult leader says jump, meetings)…Let’s see am I missing anything else…oh yes YOU must go Powerplayer!… meet those requirements, or you’re a loser (well they use other language to send the message) but how do you expect your team to go pp if you don’t?..That equated to at least 150 PV and could mean a lot more for some if they needed to continue to ‘pretend’ your growing then ‘inventory loading’ would be required to rank so you don’t miss that magical bonus bracket y’all are fighting over!

    It’s not over yet… Then you MUST go Power-player …more forced spending; that’s if you are serious…”treat your business as a business and not a hobby” ya know.. but most important if you are a “real leader” YOU WILL be a PP…and then you are serious about that ‘profit thing’…

    Just the ‘guru’s way of guaranteeing more of the money circulating into the pyramid vacuum.. to the top less than a half percent.. And lastly NEVER, EVER question the authority… it ‘takes’ 2-5 years…so don’t even question why you aren’t making a profit, it is the “best business bar none” so BELIEVE it…It IS a “proven system” and we “don’t promise easy..but we do promise worth it!!!” Oh an one more thing if ANYONE..including your family members, children, Pastor, best friends,…etc…are stupid enough to NOT get started then we require you to make fun of them and call them names…don’t forget the 5-6 nights a week too!!

  89. TheBigPayBack permalink
    August 10, 2012 2:51 pm

    Hahahaha!!! Did I open big ole can of stinky worms when I mentioned WWDB????? WWDB is “Above Reproach”? oh, Speak Your Truth sounds like he/she drank the Kool Aid!!!! It’s nice getting pimped ain’t it???? ah, a little over dramatic, it’s not the best business… and remember you all of WWDB are NOT AmWay right…. Why are you commenting???? WWDB is NOT AmWay remember??? You just proved my point, you all are hypocrites…. You yell and scream one thing and then you slam people when when in striking position, oh by the way… the CONTRACT, what contract does WWDB have you potential IBO sign???? a WWDB contract???? NO! It’s a Friggin AmWay Contract!!!! What… you forgot???? Impossible? WWDB is “Above Reproach”

  90. August 10, 2012 4:01 pm

    HA HA Dang! You have covered a lot there speak, like a night owl. This reminds me – no wonder ambots used to walk out of night owls feeling like janitors. After collecting all of these kinds of keys, why not?

    BTW WWDB is not different from BWW. They swap speakers/CD’s and it’s all good. In fact I remember at one time Ron Puryear talking about, I mean edifying his mentoir Bill Britt. Edification-he was setting an example you know. Excuse me nausea is setting in, gotta rush.

  91. Brent Hansen permalink
    August 10, 2012 4:10 pm

    @exambot, thank you for arriving with your usually caustic, abrasive, and sarcastic attitude and words, I LOVE IT!

  92. Speak Your Truth permalink
    August 10, 2012 4:51 pm


    I can’t stop laughing you are histerical…Thanks! 🙂

    I love the “feeling like janitors after collecting all of these kinds of keys, why not!!!!

  93. Speak Your Truth permalink
    August 10, 2012 7:11 pm


    I will apologize for putting you and the rest through another ‘night owl’ (like we didn’t suffer enought)…it is quite irritating, isn’t it? 🙂

  94. Speak Your Truth permalink
    August 10, 2012 7:26 pm

    All that…and still 99+, NEVER make a profit.. ouch. less of course you are in Deanna’s group! 🙂

  95. Freedomhaha permalink
    August 10, 2012 7:32 pm

    It all comes back to math and ethics. I guess I can’t help you if you feel good about a model that forces 99% of people to lose money. I personally couldn’t sleep knowingly doing that, but hey, everyone is different.

  96. Speak Your Truth permalink
    August 11, 2012 9:11 am


    This was our experience..Umm…Mathematics?.What in the world does that have to do with “helping people?” Geez..the guru’s tell you it is a “proven system”…just look at their “lifestyles” they appear to be paying their bills, it certainly is ‘working’ for them..duh to the rest of the world, what do they know?!

    We were Way too busy “trusting”..and in cult performance mode to even give it a second thought. And Brent or Mike was not in my upline “mentoring”..haha.. sharing those undeniable facts with us, oh no quite the contrary..orrin woodward/pc were working their undue influence to the hilt… speaking out the other side of his mouth. NO ONE was sharing those mathematics and still don’t!!

    It may seem obvious now but back we weren’t looking for the trees through the forest because of that effective mind-numbing/controlling “system” that only brings the lossess..I mean “success!” Must just have to “keep doing what your doing”..dodado (blindly trusting they KNEW and wouldn’t steer anyone wrong) bad move on our part…skipping right along..”the ONLY way you fail, is if you quit!!” This thing works…don’t question..and on and on right up until we were forced to run into the tree in the forest head on, that is painful!

    So why waste time trying to figure out some comp plan when you have “examples” of it “working” ..well that is a whole 5 people who are PC out of tens of thousands?…another oversight!

    Didn’t stop long enough to busy “following our purpose” and trusting the cons so had no point of reference for the guarenteed.. “failure by design” ..forced on the masses! UNTIL.. my “cross-line” buddies (Mike & Brent) were kind enough (broke the rules..haha) and became brutally honest and made me aware, which is the KEY! Educate & make aware!

    And then it was OH she-it…how could we so blindly trust! Then it was a whole new set of “positive emotions” haha..:) So it was long after we gone and that was just the “mathematics”…doesn’t even touch the tougher process of realizing, regonizing, and facing exactlly what REALLY happens to you from being inside the cult enviornment and how it effects us personally!

    Did we know people quit…OH yes, just had to look at the thousands of ZERO’s in our back office..that was a no-brainer.. but then “that is expected” isn’t it..yes they tell you of course!! There are “quitters” in everything…People “quit” on diets, chruches, marriages, they “Quit” EVERYTHING…yes, yes, yes. there is some truth to that but then they don’t finish the rest of the story so to speak..the real truth in WHY so many “Quit!” You will never follow that thought threw past what they tell you… as the indoctrination continues in the enviorment goes on…for eternity..

    It is what cults do…they keep the “believers”…believing…”what-ever-it-takes!!!

  97. August 11, 2012 10:18 am

    Ditto! Personally I could wash my hands but not my conscience.

  98. Speak Your Truth permalink
    August 11, 2012 1:40 pm


    I am with you…Thank God for people that will draw that line and listen to their conscience! I believe the majority walk into that environment impressed and believe they found “like minded Christian folk” and end of leaving going holy crap they are not what they say they are. The cult tactics and the masters are good at keep others stripped of ‘thinking on their own’ and so confused that they very subtly over time have people questioning themselves rather than trusting themselves and for the most part ignoring their consciences! Dangerous and destructive.

  99. Freedomhaha permalink
    August 11, 2012 2:17 pm

    I hope prospects and people are in TEAM right now see that we were all fed the same lines. I know I thought I was “special” in TEAM. I do believe that I am special and my life has a purpose I just don’t think it has anything to do with the fact that I sold a couple of over priced books that week. Cult members: The BS that you are being told so is EVERYONE else is your group!! GET OUT NOW!

  100. August 11, 2012 2:17 pm

    Ha ha thanx guys! I noticed somebot was making the town too smoky.


    Nah…don’t sweat an apology. It’s no skin off my nose to read your “night owl” write up; I’ld rather that than a real one. Your write up was funnier & ran faster too…faster than a bell clapper in a goose’s a$$ LOL. And yes those night owls were irritating. But I stopped fighting my inner demons, we’re on the same side now ;).


    No paw or bellow here. I just love to tie a knot on mlmbots’ tails! Why? Look, you got you got it so right here @August 8, 2012 3:33 pm

    “The pro-MLM people have a knack for never responding to direct questions, and smothering a thread with red herring arguments and rhetoric.”

    Is it because mlmbots show up here with guns half cocked? BTW that’s annoying! Considering people on here know both side of the cards how can they play? In fact I am still trying to figure out IBOFB’s muddle @August 9, 2012 6:50 am.

    You said “They call it “overcoming objections” I believe.”

    Damn straight they do. In fact, BWW and WWDB both have a bunch of CD’s/tapes titled as such, ain’t it gre… I mean ain’t it funny.

  101. August 11, 2012 3:34 pm

    … how can they play? i.e. mlmbots

  102. margot permalink
    August 12, 2012 4:39 am

    Iam trying to complete the form for the class action. If you can give your IBO number and list all the busines tools you bought by name I am not understanding why the form was drafted the way it is. I becme and IBO in 2008 because I lost my job due to an injury in a car accident. I struggled in keeping up with everything including my living expenses. Many times I didn’t pay my rent to pay for products and tools that bit me hard later when I was evicted. I spent rent money to attend NC convention and finally because I just couldn’t anymore I had not choice but to leave could pay the re-up fee anyway. Most of the things you by through Amway are very pricy so much so that you’d be better off going to walmart or the local store to purchase. You end up saving a lot in comparison. I have seen and still see many of the IBO’s that were in my upline shopping at Walmart regularly.

  103. Brent Hansen permalink
    August 12, 2012 7:17 am

    Aw come on Margot, you have got to be kidding me, amway is great …..hahahaha…..your story is very, very, typical. I saw people in my team lose cars to the bank, I saw people sell their homes to avoid foreclosure, then move into rentals I saw one person rack up a $50,000 credit card balance. Stories like yours’ are the rule, not the exception.

    List the tools by name? Hahaha, you have to be kidding me? Like I remember the $250,000 worth of crap that I purchased by name, what a joke! I have the tax returns, would that suffice?

    All of this testimony and yet we have people like what’s her face above, and steadson who continue to toot amway’s horn. Freakin idiots.

    I think we need a disclaimer on this blog, if you are in the current .01% lets say a Platinum, Emerald or a Diamond, you don’t qualify to post here because you are only focused on earning yourself, and have already became a liar. If you are a blowhard like steadson who has all of the knowledge, hyperbole, and rhetoric, but NO EVIDENCE, you do not qualify to post here either.

    For the rest of you, we all love to hear from normal, everyday people, you know, the 99.9%.

  104. Mike Collins permalink
    August 13, 2012 7:13 am

    Great post Brent!!! How does that rhetorical saying go that the mlm pundits like to throw around?……..Documentation beats what???

  105. exambot permalink
    August 13, 2012 10:05 pm

    IBOFB made a boo boo @August 9, 2012 6:50 am. He said to Brent

    “You’re entire bogus analysis is based on the false idea that purchases made for personal use are a business expense.
    Have you tried running that one by the IRS? What are you smoking? Good grief.”

    Surely did you have to go there, that way? Listen, where does say F/emerald Deanna’s scAmway profits come from? Let’s really think-where if not external customers…? Exactly! So who talked about personal purchases, IRS and tax? Deanna, in her back office, can see her own profits from her downline ambots’ personal purchases in addition to her personal purchases. For the majority of those ambots the lower you go down the org. they cannot see a profit from their own orgs…I guess some downlines quit, or something.

    Let’s answer your question another way. Supposing for once or twice or thrice personal purchasing was limited to profitable ambots only. What would happen to Deanna’s “atchoo” profits? Indeed, what about her “atchoo” organization?

    Downline ambots’ personal purchases constitute an upline’s profits. No downline personal purchases, no profits to upline. Because overwhelmingly, there’s little to negligible sales to external customers. The fluff must maintain the uplines – and they brag they are retired from their jaaay ohhhh bheee’s. Oh puleeeze! Parasites!

  106. Sam Tangi permalink
    November 19, 2012 6:28 am

    Could you update us on the Nov 16, 2012 verdict on the settlement?

  107. November 19, 2012 8:43 am

    Didn’t know there was a verdict on the settlement. What have you heard? A search for news turned up nothing so far.

  108. No Team For Me permalink
    December 2, 2012 8:11 pm

    wow! Read through that case. In my opinion, I believe Quixtar was aware of the case and was attempting to make things right. In the process of making things right, Orrin stood to loose a lot – read the part about people losing money do to the money they were spending on training and the fact that no effort was made to get actual retail customers. Does that not sound exactly like Orrin & Teamscam? How much time did orrin and teamscam actually spending teaching how to sell product vs how to recruit others and then craming Cd’s down their throat.

    In my opinion, I think Quixtar was about to revoke Orrin’s ability to have a training system and he know it. That’s why he got all of us to leave. Not a hero/whistleblower at all. More like a selfish jerk who was solely looking out for himself (if this is true).

    Too bad the team followers have no idea what a liar he was. He wasn’t standing up to Quixtar. He was trying to save himself after breaking all of Quixtar’s rules. Especially when he used to lie to eveyone and tell the Quixtar was ‘just a supplier’ – they WERE THE BUSINESS YOU LIAR!!!!!

  109. April 15, 2013 10:48 am

    Has anyone heard the status of the claims? I know currently claims are being reviewed by the special master. He was suppose to have a response for the judge a little over a week ago about current claim status for claimants. I have looked online and cannot find anything relavent to what is currently going on at all.

  110. Grant Batten permalink
    December 29, 2015 8:11 pm

    my wife filed for this and never received anything, that was yearss ago, did anyone ever get paid???

  111. March 17, 2016 12:37 pm

    2006-My marriage was in trouble, my finances were in trouble and I needed to make more money to just survive.
    Quixstar was introduced to me and I began to dream again. I never made money but I dove into the cd’s, meetings and the dream of a better future.
    For quite some time I didn’t know that it was a breakoff of Amway and I had already done that 2 times. I needed this!
    2007- My marriage was over and I only made $800 a month teaching music lessons at my home. I put my heart into my children and a brighter future for us. Yes, Quixstar seemed to be the answer to all my dreams.
    The Team-I read self help books, listened to CD’s, went to meetings and I was broke.
    2008- Married a long time friend and together we have 14 children. 9 were home at the time, 8 boys, 1 girl. We needed this.
    Mona-Vie- I followed my leaders. We drank our super juice every day. Money was tight and responsibilities were high. This wasn’t working for us.
    Was there a honest business that we could make residual income from home and still spend time with our family?
    2009- The Quixstar/Team/Mona-Vie is over, We learned a lot. We spent a lot of money, and I don’t regret it, this was my education.
    Maybe my husband and I could start a new business that was honest and the prices were comparable to grocery store brands.
    We didn’t have to… I see posts on Facebook that say “I’ve found the answer to staying at and working from home.” They are so excited and…

    2015- Received some products from Quickstar as part of a settlement for a class action law suite. The protein bars were so bad we gave them to the chickens, no one would eat them. We enjoyed the energy drinks though!
    2016- Got a check from Quickstar as the other part of the settlement $746.10 and it cashed!!!

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