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Since Orrin Won’t Talk About Amway/Quixtar, Let Dan Hawkins Explain It

May 16, 2012

Since Orrin can speak no ill will of Amway following the confidential settlement of their respective lawsuits, let’s hear what TEAM/LIFE Policy Council member Dan Hawkins has to say about Orrin’s past with Amway/Quixtar. The post seems to be in response to the Pokorny Class Action Lawsuit settlement and is an attempt to cast Orrin in the whistleblower limelight. Hawkin’s missive is too long to copy in this blog post, but the points that I’d like to comment on include:

  • Orrin saw the problems with regards to IBO profitability, high-priced products, etc. with Amway/Quixtar back in 2005. Orrin writes a letter to Doug Devos outlining these grievances and his solutions.
  • 40,000 people followed Orrin into the unknown after his dismissal from Amway/Quixtar in 2007.
  • No mention of MonaVie during period of time after dismissal from Amway/Quixtar and launch of LIFE in 2011.
  • LIFE “addresses and fixes almost all of the problems spelled out in the letter to Doug DeVos.”
  • Critics of Orrin Woodward are “Amway Drones”

Here are my questions:

  1. How did Orrin promote Amway/Quixtar during the time between his letter to Doug Devos to his dismissal from Amway/Quixtar? Did he promote it as the best business opportunity in the world? Please refer to this video of Orrin Woodward in which he states, “World-class products brought to you at world-class prices,” and “We have the greatest opportunity… not a good one… the best one… the best one.”

  1. Does TEAM currently have 40,000 members today? Photos from their major seminars show what looks to be at most 15,000 people in attendance. Where did the other 25,000 people go?
  2. Why didn’t Hawkins mention the three years in which Orrin was hawking MonaVie juice products to TEAM? In many posts (since removed from his blog), Orrin talked about how MonaVie was such a better business opportunity than Amway. What changed? Why is Orrin now just talking about how great the products are, but not talking about or promoting the MonaVie business opportunity?
  3. How does LIFE address and fix all the problems of Amway/Quixtar when the analyses show that it has many of the same problems?

Calling the critics of Orrin Woodward “Amway Drones” is laughable when it’s abundantly clear that we’re most certainly not fans of Amway1.

I’ll close with this quote of Orrin’s from Hawkins:

I was with him one weekend during probably the hardest part of this fight when he said to me, “If Laurie and I have to sell everything and move back into a trailer, that is what we will do to make this right.”

Actions speak louder than words. Last I checked, Orrin’s house in Florida is no trailer, and his boat is no canoe.


1 With a pseudonym like Amthrax, do members in TEAM/LIFE really think I’m a fan of Amway?

82 Comments leave one →
  1. webelieved permalink
    May 16, 2012 6:21 pm

    Of course Dan is puppet on a string for Orrin! He has to twist and turn it all I am sure to keep his money. I bet Dan hasn’t even read the lawsuits or done his own research. Just parroting what his upline told him, he is such a follower! Too bad he doesn’t realize what a fool he looks like!

    I guess we will be here if Dan ever wakes from his team coma. He will be so embarassed for what he has done, but he may never wake up. After all he knows his sponsors Mark and Raquel Peters and his upline John and Melanie Morgan and others were screwed over in Team and yet he stays and promotes the ones responsible, Guzzardo and Woodward !

  2. Brent Hansen permalink
    May 17, 2012 3:59 am

    The profit/loss ratios are very similar in both compensation models, as both plans are extremely top heavy in compensation allocation. From a business standpoint, engaging in either model, it would be extremely difficult to earn a living wage.

  3. Speak Your Truth permalink
    May 17, 2012 6:32 am

    Great Article Amthrax…I believe you nailed it with the points you made! Anyone with an ounce of common sense should see right through the propaganda! It is astonding how orrin claims ‘hero’ when he created and fleeced the followers since 1993 with them same “hopelessly overpriced products” and that “pyramid scheme”. Looks like the spinsters are at it again!

    Lets see… what orrin & the pc.. how they ‘solved’ these problems of “hopelessly overpriced products” telling everyone to “keep building numbers” and going Power Player all the way up to the DAY we left!

    What was their “solutions”? I also saw where he stated he knew there was ‘problem’ with pricing since 2004, which I will call Liar again on that one, he knew the prices where a problem waaayyy before then!

    (1) Too many to count…PV Parties for YEARS of at least 150 PV or around $300 dollars at a minimum! (manditory forced spending of the products)

    (2) Mandatory to ‘qualify’ for Power Player for YEARS…more forced spending and built into that supposed “world class” system …. 150 PV minimum to become a power player ( and you aren’t a leader or won’t get the “proven results” if you are NOT one or so they will brainwash you to believe!)

    (3) How about telling and teaching people to ‘buy’ (invest as he called it); buy their ranks in Quixtar Amway (inventory load) which cost thousands upon thousands of dollars and raked up cc to the max.. when he would “counsel” you to buy…cookware sets, vacuums, air-filters, systems cases of vitamins, jewelry etc..!!! Buy your rank (caused massive amounts of debt)… because your bonus will make up for it!!

    (4) Created a “legal fund”..to fleece the downline

    Those are just a few of orrins heroic genius ‘solutions’ to the problem, …whislteblower on! I am sure if I spent more time I could show many, many, more!!!

    I believe the REAL story is,which he will NEVER admit to! orrin knew Amway was going to possibly cut off completely or control his tool scam (the “motivational’ training”) and he absolutely refused to give it up,(go back to his trailer living) which in turn is why he blasted numerous lawsuits filed against Amway, when he didn’t get his way…and NOT because he “cared” about anyone else!

    He isn’t fooling anyone. The quote about orrin willing to go back to his trailer is Bullsh*t…because he told us he refused to go back. And what about a PC who told their downline that THEY (meaning the PC) WILL NOT GO DOWN no matter what!…It didn’t matter who else suffered they were NOT going down because they WOULD LOSE IT ALL because people would Quit BELIEVING!

    So Dan has a right to his a opinion but he is simply a pawn, sucking up because orrin owns him (proving his loyality)… Sorry Dan…those of us who know the Truth….will never buy into that BS!

  4. Speak Your Truth permalink
    May 17, 2012 6:45 am

    BTW..Dan~

    I hope you ‘win’ the new contest you all got going on… of ‘ranking’ your site against some of your other low life teammates, I pity you. I really believe deep down you have/had some goodness, it is too bad you sold your soul to the piped piper. I am also happy you made it to PC…it’s too bad you didn’t EARN IT, but I do hope you find it in you to tell that truth and not mislead your downline into believing all’s they have to do is what you did, because the chances of them getting the same ‘deal’ you got…. is next to ZERO!

  5. I QUIT (and glad I did) permalink
    May 17, 2012 6:59 am

    I think the second paragraph following the four main points should read as follows.
    Once the whole story is on the table it is easy to see, most of the positive is “Life Drones” still not willing to take responsibility for theft and/or handout, face the facts and resume being honest, productive members of society. Instead they ramble on with rhetoric, lies and attacks on people who truly are out to make a difference.
    Then he continues with a kernel of real wisdom (for a change)
    “Finding the truth can only happen in one of two ways, get to know Owen personally or look at all the facts objectively.”
    RIGHT ON DAN!!! Thats why we do what we do. We offer facts that somehow get missed on your side of the fence. I’m sure its just an oversight…

  6. Speak Your Truth permalink
    May 17, 2012 7:04 am

    I QUIT (and glad I did)

    Amen..brother!

  7. Katie permalink
    May 17, 2012 8:57 am

    “Would you hand a letter to a billionaire business owner of the company you represent knowing that if he did not like what you said it could damage your long term relationships?”

    Call me crazy, but I’m pretty sure the business rules of Mr. Hawkins’ arrangement say they will remove anyone who does this. Don’t bother watching for any “heros” to emerge from TEAM/LIFE.

    Or perhaps we, the survivors, are the heros? Calling them out and trying to save others regardless of the cost to ourselves? I personally can’t think where I would draw the line at trying to stop someone I knew from joining TEAM/LIFE. All hail ME!

  8. webelieved permalink
    May 17, 2012 9:16 am

    “If Laurie and I have to sell everything and move back into a trailer, that is what we will do to make this right.” – Orrin
    Funny while Orrin was starving his Round Table members’ families, he was getting paid $500,000 a month in team profit sharing!! Wow what a hero, NOT.

  9. webelieved permalink
    May 17, 2012 9:28 am

    Katie- Did you get that quote off of Dan’s website?
    I assume he trying to say what a hero Orrin is that he went up against Quixtar. Orrin knew that they were cracking down on the tool companies way before any of this happened and that is what motivated him. In fact someone said he knew before Go diamond weekend they were shutting down his tool company. The same weekend they showed the Team profit sharing income on the screen, to start to entice everyone out of Quixtar…..because they knew they were going to have to leave Quixtar to keep the tool money, their main income flowing. People had no idea they were being prepped ahead of time. Of course the whole truth was never told to the leaders or the main population of followers.
    Could that be the same weekend they herded us into a room to sign our contract without letting us read it, take it to an attorney, or get a copy ? The same one Orrin himself refused us a copy of in writing, after he took our incomes away without notice! I think that may be the weekend……anyone know.

  10. May 17, 2012 9:39 am

    @Katie – that’s a great point! There’s no public dissension allowed in TEAM/LIFE. And, if one were to do it privately with their upline, the likelihood of that person being blacklisted (by their upline RT or PC) is very high.

  11. Katie permalink
    May 17, 2012 10:05 am

    @ Webelieved – yes, I read most of Hawkin’s blog post. It was really, really, really long. He opens up by taking the Webster’s definition of a hero and then describes Orrin’s letter to the A/Q leader. I think it’s borderline offensive to call someone a hero for writing a letter in order to save people money…. sort of shameful to put Orrin on par with soldiers or firemen or something just because he “spent tens of millions of dollars” leaving Amway. But I digress.

  12. I QUIT (and glad I did) permalink
    May 17, 2012 10:11 am

    ALL HAIL KATIE!!

    I LOVE IT!!!!!!!!!!

    LMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  13. Speak Your Truth permalink
    May 17, 2012 10:15 am

    Me too Katie…I love it and excellent points!!!

  14. Speak Your Truth permalink
    May 17, 2012 10:42 am

    Webelieved~

    I do remember that and I believe you are correct…yes, the ole’.. ellusive “contract”..such “Ethics” that don’t have!!

  15. May 17, 2012 4:05 pm

    Right on Katie, I hail you!

  16. Soon2BOut permalink
    May 18, 2012 4:09 pm

    Just so everyone is aware, Dans TEAM has the lowest amount of Power Players ever major. I’m guessing it’s because the majority of it was just given to him. Sad sad sad.

  17. webelieved permalink
    May 18, 2012 4:52 pm

    Wow Soon2BOut- That is interestig. How do you know that, do they have a contest or something?

  18. Freedomhaha permalink
    May 19, 2012 5:25 am

    Does anyone have any reasons why the Hawkins were given their team? I am sorry if this has already been covered in a different part of the blog.

  19. May 19, 2012 7:32 am

    I thought Woody was all about Freedom, and not having to answer to “the man”. He’s always gushing about how he will fight for freedom and never let anyone tell him how to live.

    Except when they’ll sue his ass. Another wanker move by a bunch of wankers.

  20. webelieved permalink
    May 19, 2012 9:42 am

    Freedomhaha- I think some of the story about the Hawkins was covered under the story about the Peters. It’s under the primer.

  21. Freedomhaha permalink
    May 19, 2012 5:58 pm

    We- Thanks! When I was in the Hawkins were cross line, but always held up as the “come from nowhere” example. Total speculation here, but I think that TEAM wanted a couple that wasn’t linked to them at the beginning to be held up for the anyone can do it factor.

  22. webelieved permalink
    May 19, 2012 7:08 pm

    Freedomhaha- The Hawkins did work the business hard, but when we had the break from Q before MV they started getting a bit of extra accalades and help from Guzzardo. They had no bigger results than any of their many upline leaders at the time, but seemed to be willing to kiss George’s a…….. In 2008 when they were Gold’s in MV, they secretly recieved teams in profit sharing out of Billy Florences teams. Apparanty Guzzardo chose them to recieve them, thinking no one would know. The Peters recognized Names of people from Billy’s teams in their back office that didn’t belong in the Hawkins team. Low and behold it was the Stadels from Billy Florences’ team.
    Later when Raquel was looking at a way to build her mv business, she ran into a couple that were working with Billy Florence and she was told that Guzzardo and Hawkins were doing meetings in Blilly’s team in the Madison area, soliciting them to stay with Team and not leave with Billy Florence. Apparantly Billy Florence didn’t agree with Orrin price gouging people on the system, and started using a cheaper, more dircect sales, system. Mrs. Peters was told by this couple how the behavior of Hawkins and Guzzardo, her crossline, was destroying this couple’s team. Now I hear Dan Hawkins met with leaders who for years were working directly with Billy to get them out of MV and into LIEF. Nice guy huh? Apparanty crosslining rules only apply to Dan’s downline and not him….or the PC? I guess stealing is ok in leadership and living for excellence?
    I cannot confirm or deny that the Hawkins recieved other groups like was reported here, Haugens etc. It is true the Hawkins leaders were volume loading in their teams in MV to all add together to get them all to the next level. Most never hit the level again.
    So a lot of deception has been going on in Team these past few years unknown to blind followers sitting in the audience. Fake recognition. Bought recognition, thousands of dollars worth.
    I was wondering, in 2008 did the Hawkins from stage ever say they were given tons of people on system and tickets from Billy Florence’s teams? Of course not. Of course Team only tells you what they want you to know.

  23. webelieved permalink
    May 19, 2012 7:11 pm

    Freedomhaha- If i was a betting man, I would put a large bet on the fact that going into LIFE the Hawkins probably got a whole lot of interesting deals. it seems a lot of leaders got deals…unknown to prospects who will never get those deals! But yet they say do as I do and you can have what I have. The problem is it is a flat out lie!

    I would hate to be owned by another man. Lying to keep my money like a lot of them are. I woud consider what God thinks of all of this…..eternity is a LONG time.

  24. webelieved permalink
    May 19, 2012 7:29 pm

    Freedomhaha- I agree with you , they needed a new PC. So they made one. There were many times the Hawkins were made bigger than they were. For instance at the Minneapolis Major in June 2008, after being in MV for only a few months they were squeduled by the Team office to be recognized for Ruby or Emerald and they were only Golds barely, they were not even close. When the Hawkins were asked about it when practicing staging the day before the seminar, Lisa was embarassed and obviously uncomfortable, telling her upline Mark and Raquel Peters, “we didn’t hit our goal”. There was some shennanigans going on there because they were not EVEN CLOSE TO Ruby/Emeralds. ( pretty sure it was Emerald.)
    And yet that weekend they were on the panel discussion saying how they were rocking MV. Yeah right, they weren’t growing much bigger or faster than anyone else. But boy was a spectacle made about them from what i hear. Anyone remember that?

  25. webelieved permalink
    May 19, 2012 7:50 pm

    Also George Guzzardo had John Graf retire, when we were in the 6 month wait to get people to believe. He hadn’t hit his goal, but it was good for the team for belief. So sad these people cannot even see they are pawns in helping their PC decieve people.
    Making up crap so people believe is the norm in team it seems.
    The Peters were wondering what the heck their downline was doing when the Hawkins team all seemed to be hitting goals in MV that they were not even close to, and never hit again. Then the Peters were informed by someone in their team of how they were volume loading, and it all made sense. All their leaders planned the 2 weeks they would do this, and than placed juice orders through their downlines numbers and than sold it back to other downline, from what the Peters were told. Of course they could see the volume in the tree. They were discusted to say the least.
    Of course that fake recognition, free teams, etc were useful to give the Hawkins credibility to help them move on in the business and get to PC. So in my opinion it is all fraudulant .It is no wonder the Hawkins do Guzzardo and Woodward’s bidding. It seems they all are willing to decieve and/or lie for eachother. So sad.

  26. webelieved permalink
    May 19, 2012 7:53 pm

    I would guess that if the Hawkins were doing this, while mentoring with Orrin, there were many others doing the same.

  27. Soon2BOut permalink
    May 19, 2012 8:26 pm

    I met someone a few majors back on Dans Team–well, one of them. I explained how my team was upset that we didn’t break 100 Power Players, but we were close. They replied “well, we had the lowest amount of power players on stage. We, as a whole team, promised Dan and Lisa we’d hit 50. we only hit 22”. Out of the 4 or 5 teams they have…only 22 Power Players? Thats sad. Real sad.

  28. webelieved permalink
    May 19, 2012 8:46 pm

    Do you have to have 5 or 6 teams to go PC still ? I am doubting Hawkins had that originally. I know that the team given from Billy was at one time @50 system and 100 tickets. That was awhile ago, and not including the newest batch. Also not including anyone else, Haugen etc.

  29. webelieved permalink
    May 19, 2012 8:48 pm

    100 tickets in a team would take any leader YEARS to develop. Must…..Beeeee…….Niiice.
    🙂
    On a serious note, I would NEVER want to be them!

  30. webelieved permalink
    May 19, 2012 8:52 pm

    Soon2BeOut- What is the qualification for PP ? Is it still 10 and 5. With 4 and 2 on system counts. 15 plans every 30 days, etc. ?
    Or was this in the switch to Life and they counted transfered line of sponsorship from team to life, with the same ole people? Or was it with brand new people? I cannot see the hawkins team having that many PP legitimately.

  31. Finally permalink
    May 20, 2012 4:24 am

    Is it me or does Dan Hawkins have his head so far up Orrins butt Owwin needs to unbutton his shirt so Dan can brush his teeth………..seriously………..His blog posts are pathetic……i think need Dan needs to get a new set of genitalia because someone sure has his…………

    [Editor’s Note: Moderated. No need for crude jokes.]

  32. webelieved permalink
    May 20, 2012 5:04 am

    Finally- Lmao! He has listened to so many cds he sounds like a mini Orrin. He is brainwashed for sure or a very good actor. I am guessing he has no clue all that Orrin has done. He is a YES man, he does whatever they say. A pawn at their beck and call. I would hate to be him.

  33. Finally permalink
    May 20, 2012 4:18 pm

    You’re right Amthrax…..poor taste on my part, mu apologies to the board.

  34. No Longer a Lifer permalink
    May 22, 2012 7:45 am

    I joined while we were part of Monavie…Once LIFE came around, Monavie was hardly ever talked about anymore. I think Monavie has been seriously decieved. But as they say, what goes around comes around.

    On Dan and Lisa Hawkins, I remember being so excited for them when they hit PC at the Major. My upline were pumped up and said this was huge. I didn’t have a clue about how they got to PC until I read comments on this board. My upline hiding the truth..or the truth being hidden from them.

    I still wonder…Chris and Danae Mattis made it to the PC rank at a major last year. And they are hardly ever talked about anymore. Did the California team fall off the face of the Earth? Hmmmmmmmm

    By the way, I’m taking some vacation time before the Memorial Day weekend coming up. It feels so good to be FREE. To do things I want and not worry about “showing a F***ing plan” or going to some “Meeting” and wasting my whole vacation time. Instead I will enjoy FAMILY TIME!! 🙂

    Love you guys. 🙂 This has been a good group to be apart of. Thanks for helping me see the light. 🙂

  35. webelieved permalink
    May 22, 2012 3:41 pm

    No Longer A Lifer- Have a GREAT VACATION! Enjoy your family time! Glad this site helped! 🙂

  36. Soon2BOut permalink
    May 25, 2012 8:22 pm

    @Webelieved. In order to hit Power Player, yes it’s still 10 and 5, 4 and 2. Those people need to be on LIFE and TEAM subscriptions. I’m not sure about qualifications about Monnavie because my points have been the same. I love the engery drink so I bulk up and put it through my last person in both legs. (I do a lot of reading..non team material..so I need the energy boost to help) Also, I got a few people in based on monnavie alone, so they spend their money on the RVL products and its working for them, so whatever, ha. I haven’t been to a Tuesday since this past major, so im not sure if now the MFC will have to be on it as well or the new Tuesday open subscriptions. From the annoying amount of text messages im getting, I know 5 people have been put into my taproot, but they are not on life or team subscriptions, nor do I care. But my 2nd leg is still working for me, but ive confessed to my direct downline I am stepping down and leading my own life. And boy….I got YELLED at by my upline. I am actually doing what I want to do, and I get yelled at? How effn sad. Hmmm. So, I am officially out. I sold all my ‘tools’. Everything. I took the LIFE license plate holder off of my car. Its amazing. Im glad I didnt put that fugly LIFE bumper sticker on my car.

    IM FREE AT LASTTTTT

  37. webelieved permalink
    May 25, 2012 9:31 pm

    Soon2BOut- I am happy for your freedom! Thanks for the info on PP. I was wondering how the bulking up on the bottom is taught? Who taught it to you and how do you do it? Is that on video or cd? Just wondering? Or is that word of mouth. I don’t get why you would give your volume away? You need it to get paid, right?

    By the way it doesn’t suprise me your upline yelled at you. How long have you been off the cds?

  38. Katie permalink
    May 27, 2012 10:38 am

    Soon2be out – hooray for you!! What a great feeling to have that weight off your shoulders. Enjoy your free time!!

  39. Soon2BOut permalink
    May 27, 2012 7:17 pm

    I had no idea at first what the purpose of it was. When I got started, I would get texts from my team mates saying “Bulk Order going through, who wants in?” I’m like ‘oh sweet, it will be cheaper to do it with everyone and I get points’. Basically it’s to get the new guy excited that he is on the bottom. Instead of feeling that he will never get to the top fast or because hes on the bottom he will never get past the guy ahead of him. Things like that. I haven’t heard it on a cd…im not sure i’ve listened to a bunch of them, they get mumbled jumbled up in my head. I’ve been off system since the major actually. I’m broke. TEAM made me broke…but now, ahhh it’s so glad not having to “invest” money into ‘my business’. I already paid all my bills this month 🙂 mawhahahaha.

    I got to go to a BBQ today because I didn’t have to go to the stupid biz launch that is 2 hours away. Whoo hoo!

  40. Freedomhaha permalink
    May 27, 2012 8:04 pm

    Congrats on being out! We will be here to support you as you make your trasnition out of the cult just like members of this blog were here for me. Isn’t it amazing the simple things we stopped doing? How sick was that? Life will look a bit brighter my friend.

  41. May 27, 2012 9:08 pm

    How many people actually go out and buy the LIFE license plate and bumper stickers? Is this something that is heavily encouraged amongst TEAM/LIFE members? Did they also have MonaVie stickers adorning their cars?

  42. May 28, 2012 6:34 am

    @Amthrax – I doubt that the bumper stickers or licence plate holders are heavily promoted, but it goes to show you the amount of PR material they pump out at these Major “Leadership” conventions! When I was still in they had lots of similar items for sale in the “tool room”. It was always exciting to see what new TEAM / Monavie branded items would be available. It was just yet another way for them to money grab. Everything from pens, notepads, kids clothing, stuffed animals, and bobble heads, to lawn chairs, umbrellas, and cooler bags! If they could slap a logo on it… you could buy it! The great thing for them now is that they get to rebrand all the items with the “L.I.F.E.” logo… or better yet the 90 Fitness Challenge logo! All done with specific intent… getting your dollars in their pocket! Oh.. but don’t worry… nobody will force you to buy any of it! 😉

  43. chris permalink
    May 28, 2012 6:17 pm

    Well just wanted to let everyone know if they knew of any new people who recently quit who were high up in the business. Id be very interested of what they would have to say. I’ve now gone off system. It would be helpful to know (especially people who have been rt) when was the turning point? What was the main reason u quit?
    Ive decided to make a de ision soon to be totally out of it. Too many red flags for me. The most recent one is the mfc. Same books, same info repackaged over and over. I don’t understand why teamers don’t see this? don’t even question it? Their too much in dreamland losing money, while the top people are making money off of u! How is the life busineess such a great opportunity? Someone explain?

  44. webelieved permalink
    May 28, 2012 6:56 pm

    Chris- The main reason I quit is I saw the lack of integrity and honesty in my upline. Sad to say it did take me seeing a lot before my rose colored glasses cracked all the way and I could see the truth. Unfortunately thought reform works that way, you cannot see the tree in the forest. You only see what they want you to see. The longer I was off the propaganda the more I could see what a fake world I was living in for years! I WAS the yes man. I did whatever they asked without question until they went too far over the line and their words clearly didn’t match their actions and I couldn’t justify it anymore. But I had to see it for myself. Once I was out, looking back there were a LOT of red flags I ignored because I bought into the propaganda and fake friendships of my upline. They were all just to use me.

  45. Vogel permalink
    May 28, 2012 8:51 pm

    I have seen the occasional car driving around my neck of the woods tricked out with Monavie crap. Most of them were old piece o’ junk beaters with MV window stickers..sad! A few times though I’ve seen vehicles with more elaborate MV customization…an Escalade as a I recall, which I think belonged to (or more likely was leased by) R3Global. Resisting the urge to run them off the road was challenging.

    Last week, I saw a couple at O’hare airport wearing Monavie polo shirts and carrying Monavie branded luggage. I could barely restrain from bursting out laughing. At this point, I can’t imagine how horrible it must be trying to pitch the Monavie biz — and unless Google magically disappears, it’s not going to get any better; the truth is only a few clicks away.

  46. Soon2BOut permalink
    May 29, 2012 7:13 pm

    The bumper sticker for LIFE came in the LIFE package when you sign up for it.

    @Chris, I cannot give away too much information on who I am, but like you, the MFC was my breaking point. It didn’t make any sense. Then the whole paying for the Tuesday opens via online. The whole major made me laugh. Orrin is nuts. I am convinced he does some type of drug to come up with these crazy ideas. Sad thing is, everyone else must be taking them to actually believe it.

    Vogel, do you live in IL? I wonder what leaders are there.

  47. Speak Your Truth permalink
    May 30, 2012 8:37 am

    Vogel & Soon2BOut~

    Thanks for the laughs! 🙂

    Soon2BOut~

    What else comes with the LIEf package? Bumper sticker..haha…Now that is money well spent in “bettering” your life..lol! Well, we should see the sales of Goof-Off , skyrocket!

  48. Vogel permalink
    May 30, 2012 10:21 am

    S2BO — No, I’m not in IL. Not sure if that’s an MV/TEAM/LieF hotspot.

  49. webelieved permalink
    May 30, 2012 12:43 pm

    Found this on Lazyman’s site. Written today under Orrin Woodward Scams…

    anothersuckerhere says:

    May 30, 2012 at 11:51 am

    To all you trusting friends that are introduced to Team and Team Life – SLAM YOUR DOOR AND RUN!!!
    This is my story. I bumped into a former friend / client of mine a little over a year ago. Soon I was doing project after project for him . I asked him what he did for a living as I new his former occupation did not make the kind of money this guy was pulling down. He told me Team and i bit hook line sinker and about $$$12k. He made me a leader and promised I would blow away him in making money. I soon learned however that there was a catch ! see I was led to believe that If I bought all there “TOOLS” went to all there meetings ,showed the plan ,and went to all there major seminars I would be on easy street . A “Power Player” in no time . Well the reality is I showed around 50 plans contacted well over 150 people , put a half dozen people in the business who ended up losing all there money who now hate me and the worst thing was I was so snowed on there line of B.S. that I got my kids to believe we were going to be rich.
    The real story is In the year I was in TEAM my diamond up-line contacted less than ten people and put only one person in my TEAM. A Relative .
    The big question is how did he make a lot of money ? He was in the right place at the right time . It’s with out a doubt one HUGE ASS pyramid scheme. SO RUN !!!

  50. Freedomhaha permalink
    June 3, 2012 3:41 pm

    Not only is Orrin’s boat not a canoe, but Chris tweeted a picture of the new boat that he is looking at. Not surprisingly it is better than your standard wooden raft, and if you are in TEAMscamclut reading this then you helped pay for it 🙂

  51. Joseph P Telle Sr permalink
    July 12, 2012 8:32 am

    I Joined Team about 3 months ago and will continue receiving and using the materials. Missing from the replies here is the benefit of listening/reading the information and using the principles in everyday life. Some see it, most don’t. Maybe my age lets me see the positive results in myself and others who just started reading, listening to the material. If you open your mind to the positive you may not be so disappointed. I have seen a larger picture of what Life is trying to accomplish and will continue to help them/us achieve. I don’t care a lot about the ‘money’ you can make (although I am starting to make some) but more with the results of the people who really read and study the material. Most of this type of material can be had at the local library. The people who know that probably do go to the library but Life helps the ones who aren’t even aware of the possibility that they can change their life. That there is a wealth of info to help accomplish almost anything you want in life. The constant negative replies here are examples of the way intelligent people can look at something and form very different opinions. Just remember you can find the neg and pos in most things. Just choose which you want to see.

  52. July 12, 2012 8:48 am

    @Joseph – it may be good material, but it’s wrapped around a bad business opportunity. Better to get the good material for free from the library than by paying $50+/month for it.

    How much money are you making after taking into account your expenses?

  53. Katie permalink
    July 12, 2012 8:58 am

    @joseph, do you also attend meetings and show plans? Are you actively trying to build a business? Or do you just get books and cd’s at home?

  54. Speak Your Truth permalink
    July 12, 2012 3:12 pm

    Joseph P Telle Sr~

    You say: “Most of this type of material can be had at the local library.”

    But you, Joesph want to “pay” for that same information?…That makes zero sense and that wouldn’t be a good steward of your money; would it? Why would YOU pay for the same information you could get for free and why wouldn’t you put that saved money to better use? Is it not the information that matters most or is it the ‘means’ by which you get it? Does the “information” become more valuable because people throw money at it?

    Also, it is blatantly obviously you haven’t read this site but I do understand you are entitled to what YOU see as positive or negative. I believe you are passing judgment without knowing and just “following” exactly what you hear. Don’t be so quick to call people negative that you know nothing about, nor have you spent time understanding or heard both sides of the story and it is obvious you haven’t studied the facts.

    Would you say Joesph P; that as long as what you have “business or leadership etc.. Material” that you consider “positive”; would this then make everything else about the business; “positive” for you?

    Even if you found out you were deceiving people all along, misleading others by telling them they would only fail if they quit, learning it was Designed for the masses to FAIL? Or lying to everyone they are on an even “playing field” knowing others are getting special deals? How about if you learned the LIEf comp plan is designed for at least 96% and less than ½ % is getting paid the lions share while all the rest including you fail to make a dime? How about you find out the TOP PC knew this all along and withhold critical information intentionally from the masses; using deceptive business practices , so no one finds out the real truth, because they KNOW you would quit and they would lose everything?!

    Is it still more important to see “positive” when you are giving others false hope, knowing orrin and the pc..ordered others to destructed and destroyed people’s business intentionally , cheat and deceive for personal gain?

    Are you suggesting Joesph,or would you think it would be a positive thing, if we ignored these truths and just kept building and bringing people like you in, knowing you are being lied to?! How about being enticed and told you too can achieve the PC lifestyle when we know your odds are so far from reality, that it is not far from a lie to tell you, you will go PC?! How about others who got special deals we know about, including some PC that you and everyone else will never get? Would you rather not know that truth or would you decided for others they shouldn’t know that either?

    Let me ask you…Do you think Bernie Madoff’s victims haven’t “opened their minds to the positive?” Many of them were ‘retired’ or at that age, do you believe they just haven’t reached an age where they can’t open their minds to see the positive? No one is disputing information, can be “positive” and we all agree that bettering oneself is “positive,” that isn’t even the issues here, Joesph! Please read the site, and then we will have something to talk about.

    For me Joesph, it has nothing to do with “positive information”….it is about Truth!

    Is there always something good in which we take or come from ‘negative’ experiences?.. Well for myself… Oh yes!…I could go on and on and on about those positive’s; I now have…but something tells me you aren’t sincerely interested in those are you, Joesph?

  55. Joseph P Telle Sr permalink
    July 19, 2012 8:07 am

    Amthrax,
    I have been a avid reader for most of my life and I have a collection of books that fill four bookshelves. (over 600) (Music CDs over 400) Yes I could have used the library but I like to put my hands on the ones I enjoy the most and reread whenever I want. (& do). I have just started so the money is not that important. I can see the potential to touch people’s lives and expand their knowledge base for the good in each of them.

    One month was 19$ and the next was 40$.

  56. Joseph P Telle Sr permalink
    July 19, 2012 8:09 am

    Katie,
    D) All of the above. I am really liking what I see and learn. The Big Picture is, well BIG!

  57. Joseph P Telle Sr permalink
    July 19, 2012 8:14 am

    Speak Your Truth,
    WOW, I don’t know where to start. There is so much negativity in your reply I don’t know if it’s possible for me with my limited communication skills to counter them. Can I get back to you?

  58. Former Round Table permalink
    July 19, 2012 8:16 am

    Joseph P Telle Sr,

    You remind me of a stupid teenage who won’t listen to those who have experience and is determined to make stupid mistakes for himself. My response to that is, go for it pal. And good luck to you. Hopefully you won’t hurt too many people along the way.

  59. Brent Hansen permalink
    July 19, 2012 11:21 am

    @Joseph, a lie is still a lie, even it is wrapped in the skin of a thousand truths. My dad used to say that when you play with crap, you end up getting it on your hands. Good luck.

  60. Speak Your Truth permalink
    July 19, 2012 12:00 pm

    Joesph P~

    Haha, I stunned your limited communication skills?.. sorry bout that and don’t feel bad you have only been in 3 months, you haven’t been properly trained yet. Perhaps when you are getting with your upline and or re-listening to that ‘positive’ cd ‘handling objections’; (i.e. learning some stop thinking techniques, manipulation, and how to address my negativity) I would hope you also do some more research. And remember “NO NEGATIVE.”

    Isn’t that what you meant to do before ‘you can get back to me?’ I found your question very odd, since this is an open forum that anyone can freely “get back to anyone” any time they choose. Oh, I know beside you being ‘positive’ about it.

    Here is some “positive” for you, Joesph… you ought to read the LIEf P&P before you ‘get back to me’, I promise it will be a “positive” benefit for you. Especially since I already know you aren’t just a happily postive paying “customer”, because you are “attending meetings” and “showing the plan”, with the intention of bringing others in.

    Here’s something else I am “positive” will be an important benefit to you: Make sure when you ask a question from anyone on here, you are ‘prepared’ for the answer.

    Oh and Btw~ I am a positive person, and the negative you are ‘seeing’ from my post, I would call more passion than “negative” and to help you understand this and if I may use your own words: “Just remember you can find the neg and pos in most things. Just choose which you want to see.” Joesph, you just don’t know me, I am ‘positive’ of that!

  61. July 19, 2012 12:18 pm

    Hey, Former Round Table, no need to be mean. We were all there once. There’s no hope of saving people if they tune us out right away for being mean.

  62. July 19, 2012 3:24 pm

    Keep track of the books and CDs you receive/purchase from the business. Leave a comment if you ever receive the same book (even if its a different edition) or CD twice (or three or four times) as a part of TEAM/LIFE.

  63. Burned Out With Mona Vie permalink
    July 20, 2012 2:50 am

    Hey folks, havent been on in a while, sounds like things are about the same.

    @Joseph, Most of the folks on this blog are trying to help you NOT become one of us. 🙂

    We all started out with similar ambitions and believed all the hpye and cult mindset TEAM or R3G promoted at the time, some of us grew huge downlines and made a good bit of cash along the way and lost a lot more. That said MLM is the worst biz model for long term profitablilty and only the top heavy players who have been in this for decades really do well with it. The promotion and sale of tools, tapes and event tickets is where the real money in the MLM game is, the MV money is only secondary in the real world. At any rate hope you learn from the experences of others rather than have them on your own.

  64. Rob Thomas permalink
    July 20, 2012 7:51 am

    Former Round Table –
    Why don’t you jump off a bridge! You’re one of the minions that brought many people into this scam for years – and now you have the nerve to bash someone that believes in the information you hooked them on?? You’re a piece of trash and have NO credibility!

    I commend those like webeleived that are actually trying to fix the wrongs of the past, not by demeaning those that are in, but rather trying to show them the wrongs.

  65. Burned Out With Mona Vie permalink
    July 20, 2012 7:52 am

    As a follow up, I would recomend checking out the information from Monavie Corporate website.

    As to recent advancements in rank on the website notice the percentage of names that are forgin sounding or not even written in English and ask yourself, “How many folks do I know internationally who do not speak or write in English?” and “Why has the US market topped out in rank advancements?”

    The Comp plan was changed this year to a “Prefered Customer” requirement as part of you getting paid at the top ranks where on paper it would theoretically cover the minimum buy requirements, as opposed to a 1 or 2 case personal use requirement prior.
    “What was the motivation for the company to do this after 7 years since launch?” “Goverment regulation of pyrimad based MLM’s perhaps?”

    On the IDS “INCOME DISCLOSURE STATEMENT FULL YEAR 2011” note that less than 3% are in the “Executive” ranks and the “Average annualized income for all Distributors during this period was $2,104.11 During 2011” and “These figures are derived from a survey of approximately 12,000 distributors performed by MonaVie through our online order system”. Why so few if my ID number is X,XXX,XXX and they launched this in 2005?

    I can’t wait the hear how Big Fart’s R3Gbots and O-in Wierdo’s TEAM LIEfers sugar coat the current facts to sell the latest and greatest SALES TOOLS and CONVENTION TICKETS.

  66. Rob Thomas permalink
    July 20, 2012 7:54 am

    My apologies to everyone for the harshness of my comments – but it really irks me when a former round table member is bashing those that they led in.

  67. Former Round Table permalink
    July 20, 2012 8:46 am

    Rob Thomas,

    Sorry you are so irked. You are right, I am a jerk. I believed in Orrin and his vision of the future for years, and I brought a lot of people into the scam. I stood by Orrin and defended him against Amway and all his critics. I only left when I caught Orrin in a pretty egregious lie and realized that if he would lie to me about that particular thing, he would lie about anything. I did not have my business taken away from me, like some others. I was not voted out of profit sharing, like some others. I left a fairly large group and walked away from the money because I could not promote something I knew was built on lies.

    I get irritated with people like Joseph P because all they have to do is read the Life policies and procedures document to see that they are a part of a sham business, which is wrapped in warm snugglies.

    Joseph P says, “I have seen a larger picture of what Life is trying to accomplish and will continue to help them/us achieve. I don’t care a lot about the ‘money’ you can make (although I am starting to make some) but more with the results of the people who really read and study the material.”

    If he is starting to make some money, then he is out showing the business to people. Call me cynical, but I do not believe that he leaves his house night after night because he just wants to help people. If all hope of profit were removed, Joseph P would stay home. And if he denies that, then he is lying to himself as well as others.

    (I do not have any problem with people wanting to make money. I built my Team business mainly because I thought I could make a ton of money! But that was when I was told that I was building a real asset that would produce income for the rest of my life, or that I could sell. I did not have a written document that proved I owned nothing.)

  68. Brent Hansen permalink
    July 20, 2012 6:02 pm

    Is credibility required to post on this blog? And must we be nice?

  69. Billy permalink
    July 21, 2012 12:54 am

    Speaking of credibility, in LIFE news, the MFC is “now being offered as a college course” at some kooky online Christian university. Aren’t the PC against higher education? Why don’t the real, accredited colleges/universities pick it up, too? This just seems a little hypocritical to me. They seem desperate. It’s sad.

    I’m sure the question will come up –
    I’ve had zero growth in my downline for months, but we are “exploding”; I don’t pay anything for my books/CDs because I meet the customer requirement, but just barely and I’ve had no repeat customers; I stopped attending the meetings/events since the prices went up. My RT wonders what happened to me.

    It’s not looking terribly good for LIFE, from the inside.

  70. webelieved permalink
    July 21, 2012 1:06 am

    Thanks Billy for the update. Are you saying you left?

    Also, didn’t Orrin have some guy that had a controversial education system speaking at a major? Wonder what they paid him to speak and perhaps are they are selling his stuff to teamers in the system? Someone correct me if I’m wrong, I cannot recall the name.

  71. Brent Hansen permalink
    July 21, 2012 6:57 am

    @Webelieved, If I remember correctly the person in question is Oliver DeMille. He helped found and establish the curriculum for George Wyeth College in Cedar City, Utah. Although I whole-heartedly agree with the principles they teach about “self-education”, I cannot believe he allowed himself to be roped into the MLM arena. I believe, that like many others, he simply doesn’t understand the mechanisms that are employed in the MLM industry.

    I giggle now because I actually sent him a private message warning him about the pernicious nature of the models he was endorsing. MLM is a direct violation of the principles his curriculum espouses, and to endorse a top-heavy money grab simply undermines what he claims to stand for.

    @Billy, MLMers love to tout the fact that MLM courses are being presented at the prestigious Harvard Business School, and if you Google that, you will find information that actually supports that statement. However, when I called the Harvard Business School, they denied any such claims. I believe it is all MLM rhetoric, trying to gain “credibility” for the industry by making bogus claims. I am sure when you are correct that the college that offers MFC courses is either a “Mickey Mouse” college, or it is an outright lie at best.

    Billy, congrats on getting “CUSTOMERS”, too bad they aren’t repeat customers. Its kind of hard to get someone committed to purchasing materials they may or may not gain something from, isn’t it? No matter how the plan is presented the mathematics cannot be altered, the vast majority must lose based on that alone.

  72. Billy permalink
    July 21, 2012 9:26 pm

    @webelieved Yes, still in.
    @Brent It’s fairly challenging. The whole process seems to be a burden to my names list. Everyone that has bought from me seemed to like the materials, but not enough to buy more. Is it worth the effort? Not so far.
    Unless a major legitimate organization buys into the product and subscription process, I think prices will continue to rise, which will drive down membership and subscriptions, and their business will fizzle.

  73. Brent Hansen permalink
    July 22, 2012 4:39 am

    @Billy, I appreciate your candor, and like your forthright approach. You are actually part of a great experiment. One of the questions that many have probably had is whether or not a Life Member could easily maintain customers outside of the compensation plan.

    By the Life P&P you must maintain one customer in order to earn from the network structure. In most MLMs that simply means they sign up grandma as a customer, and fund her purchases themselves.

    It seems you are giving it an honest effort, and I am intrigued to know how this all works out for you. I am sure that you have watched Michael Collins’ YouTube video about the Life compensation plan so you understand that the plan is written with 95% failure by design. How are you marketing the program? Are you trying to generate interest in the product, or pitching it as a business opportunity? I have listened to a few videos put out by Life Members who actually are using the whole “saving America” approach, and I find that quite humorous. Do they actually believe that what they are doing is somehow “saving America”? And if they do believe that, why is that?

  74. July 22, 2012 1:19 pm

    I talked to someone in my (former) downline yesterday who said that Team/Life is changing after this next Major to incorporate the business more online using FB, etc… So the entrance fee will be dropping from $130 to around $50 now. I didn’t get a chance to probe for more details, so I’m not sure how this will work out, but has anyone heard anything about these up and coming changes?

  75. Billy permalink
    July 22, 2012 10:33 pm

    @Brent
    I’m marketing the materials like anything else you find value in – by saying something like, “I’ve come across some materials I think you would like. Why not give it a shot and see what you think.”
    Most people hesitate because of the price. I bet they could make it even more affordable by selling digital information, and then attract more people to their product, but Orrin’s not smart enough to make that happen.

    I do understand the compensation plan and have come to terms with never being able to achieve my dreams with this business model/product line. I would like to bring in enough to make this whole experience worth it.

    Anyone who thinks LIFE is going to “change the world” is a moron. Any change that will occur will do so on a personal level, but not necessarily because of the PC’s influence. I don’t really like them, but some of the points that are made on the CDs can actually be applied in different situations and make small differences. Save the world? No. Save a failing marriage? Doubtful. Change the way you interact with others? Possibly, but only if you REALLY want to make that change.

  76. Billy permalink
    July 22, 2012 10:43 pm

    (continued)
    I think members should have to acquire a certain number of legitimate, repeat customers before given the right to branch out and build a downline – much like insurance or real estate brokers. Pay would be calculated like commission, with black and white, spelled-out instructions of how to make money without any under-the-table deals. (I hear there’s been some of that going on.)

    LIFE “saving America” – don’t hold your breath.

  77. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    September 22, 2012 3:41 pm

    I’m sorry…this may not be very nice of me, and ordinarily I don’t hone in on others’ typos….but tonight I was reading Dan Hawkins’s leadership blog and he’s about to brag about a downline of his that became Turbo 100…….he said:

    “This weekend will mark a huge millstone for this couple,…..”

    Wait a minute…a millstone is usually thought of as being able to drown you or drag you down such as this example from a dictionary: ” The scandal has been a millstone around her neck.”

    While I’m sure he meant MILESTONE….one couldn’t help but chuckle because, when the 100 downliner members of this Turbo 100 couple begin to disappear, and if that couple quit their regular jobs, perhaps millstone would actually be the correct word. 🙂

  78. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    September 22, 2012 3:44 pm

    ADDITION TO PRIOR “millstone” POST: OH, NO!! IT JUST MIGHT TURN INTO A MILLSTONE…..at first I didn’t see something else Dan Hawkins wrote about this couple, and in this quote, he’s speaking of the wife, so here’s a more complete quote:

    “This weekend will mark a huge millstone for this couple, something many are striving for, FREEDOM! Because of the following they have created, this couple is generating a significate income, an income that exceeds her current income and will allow her to walk away from her factory job and spend the rest of her life pursuing her purpose.”

  79. September 22, 2012 4:07 pm

    @ageofwisdom51

    The irony of Dan Hawkins’ “millstone” is uncanny. Chuckle? Check. Thanx ageofwisdom!

  80. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    September 23, 2012 5:03 am

    @exambot: at the very bottom of that blog, there’s photos…..she actually did it—she left her job for the last time in a limo………well, I hope they don’t end losing their downlines some day, like what happened to the Peters’……one wrong word or even a hint of a suspicion (or with the new contract, no reason at all is needed), and poof, your “Limo” is all gone.

  81. leslie permalink
    May 15, 2013 12:05 pm

    She may have left in a limo, I would bet she simply changed jobs and her pursuits now have to be to continue to create new members and new subscriptions, continue to give the community Tuesday eves and 2 weekends a month. How much income do you suppose a factory job produces? Did she have benefits? I sure hope the exceeded part is more than her GROSS plus benefits. I am happy for her, I just dont see it as freedom.

    The definition of passive income is “Income without involvement” and since LIFE income goes away unless you maintain your team and never quit replacing those who quit or the customers that cancelled their subscriptions, you will always be involved. The amount of involvement depends on your skill at recruiting and selling. I guess income from LIFE is like anywhere else, you have to work to receive it and keep working to keep receiving it.

    Passive Income is really a mute point anyway since LIFE Policies and Procedures clearly say you need to be an active member or they may decide to cancel your membership, and in turn you lose everything you built. It also says they can move your team out from under you. And the bonus of that is….. you have no recourse.

  82. Freedomhaha permalink
    May 15, 2013 2:30 pm

    Leslie- Thanks for commenting!

    “I guess income from LIFE is like anywhere else, you have to work to receive it and keep working to keep receiving it. ”

    The main difference is that at any other job you do not profit solely by making promises that simply cannot be kept i.e: retirement, millionaire, freedom, ect.

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