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Mike Collin’s Presentation on the LIFE Compensation Plan

June 25, 2012

This comment from Mike Collins deserves its own post. Mike provides a thorough analysis of the LIFE compensation plan, providing concrete mathematical examples on how people can make money in LIFE.

Hello all. I just wanted to drop in and give you guys the links to the recorded powerpoint presentation on the Lief compensation plan. This is a series I’ve been working on putting together for a couple of weeks. I’ve done it in three parts that run about 7-9 minutes each. I’ve tried to keep it as short as possible.

Please keep in mind when viewing the percentages that these numbers are based on an absolutely BEST CASE scenario. In other words, these percentages will only be possible if a perfect structure is built (perfect pyramid shape) which would make it possible to “maximize” the comp plan. THIS is as good as it will ever get.

If a perfect structure in not adhered to, the “breakage” (profits due to the distributor force NOT PAID) will greatly reduce those percentages.

159 Comments leave one →
  1. Speak Your Truth permalink
    June 25, 2012 7:03 am

    Thanks Amthrax!!!

    Amazing Factual, Clear and Concise and I believe will well inform those who will NEVER be told this from anyone on Team/LIEf or Pc!!!

    Mike and Amthrax we appreciate all you do!!

  2. Speak Your Truth permalink
    June 25, 2012 7:07 am

    I wish I would have had this Years Ago… it would have saved me and multiple tens of THOUSANDS (over years) on our team a lot of heartache, money, and lost time with our families and children… because I would have NEVER have gotten started…EVER!

  3. June 25, 2012 7:16 am

    Well done Mike!

    Perhaps this post should be duplicated onto another blog altogether and linked to Amthrax’s blog. You know, fight fire with fire…use the same tactics the Teammunists use with their multiple blogs trying to fool the search engines.

    Just a thought.

    Thanks for this analysis, Man!

  4. webelieved permalink
    June 25, 2012 7:18 am

    webelieved permalink
    June 20, 2012 7:47 pm
    Mike Collins- GREAT VIDEOS! I was wondering if you could also explain to prospects the probablity of mlm being a residual income and getting your time back? Also talk about the requirements of Power Player and the costs associated with that time and money wise. Power Players were the only people who ever made a profit in Team. In fact I can only think of one person that wasn’t going Power Player over and over that made a profit, and that is because he got lucky.

    Brent Hansen permalink
    June 20, 2012 8:41 pm
    I would assume that since there is less than 5% chance that one could ever earn enough to cover a $50 subscription; that the odds of actually having any income at all, let alone a residual income must be utterly dismal.
    Since it would take 300 people for one person to generate a $1500 a month income (.33%), that odds of earning an actual living wage would have to be much lower than that. Although $1500 a month would be nothing to sneeze at, it hardly would constitute financial freedom of any sort. And according to the post by Unplugged on this thread,
    it would take a lot more than a $50 subscription to be “all in” anyway. Looks as if about $300 a month would seat you fully in the system.
    Increasing the personal volume doesn’t change the loss ratios merely alters the volume.
    webelieved permalink
    June 21, 2012 3:38 am
    Mike and Brent- The indoctrination they are taught is
    1. “those are the people that didn’t do the work”
    2. He just doesn’t understand, we build depth instead of width so the next guy with 299 people under him only needs one person to get to 300 (15,00PV) or whatever the top is.
    3. Leaders will build underneath you, so you don’t have to get the 300 alone, they are going to build it anyways. Hold your spot.
    4. Once you are at the top, (like the ones they promote) your income is residual, pipeline, ongoing, and secure
    5. Could you also explain in simple terms the need for outside customers, not distributors, as in Team (while in AMway) we were never taught how important this from stage. We were taught to recruit, recruit, recruit. OF course it was cheaper to be a distributor as you got a small kickback, so it was better for a customer to be a distributor, money wise. Just like LIFE. I wonder who Orrin is calling customers? In MV he started calling long time distributors “customers” after he switched to the Distributor’s contract in profit sharing! ( I wonder if that is illegal, or he was hiding something)
    Could you both refute these half truths/lies? I would like to help others think critically about what they are being told by Team leaders and Orrin Woodward, as I bought into these lies for years.I would also bet they are not telling new prospects the people that are parading across in LIFE with “Results” brought them from years of building Amway, Not LIFE.

    Brent Hansen permalink
    June 21, 2012 5:42 am
    1. It doesn’t matter if you work or not, the mathematical ratios remain the same. If you work hard you will be the one making the $1500 and you will then have 200 people not earning a check period, and only 12 other people who can cover the cost of their subscription. If you have 3,000 on your team, the percentages remain the same. So go ahead and “work hard” and see what will happen. You will earn, and will need to constantly replace those in your team who cannot earn. The compensation plan is a flawed design. If you do not teach people to have 3 retail customers to break even, they can only break even by helping a lot of people lose money, which means the majority of people will either quit, or spend tons of money. Forget residual income, it is literally a house of cards.
    2. Yes, Team focuses on building depth. You may only need to get 1 person and have 299 other people placed below you in a straight line, that isn’t the topic of the video. The topic of this video, from what I can tell, is how to “profit” or “earn” from the comp plan, not how to reach the top bracket of the pay plan. If you have 300 people added through team approach the best you can do is earn a 50% (on subscription, the rest of the products/services apparently have reduced volume so it isn’t a true 50%) refund on your own subscription. If you have one team with 300 people, all at $50 you get $25 back on your own subscription, that is it period.
    3. Leaders may or may not build it under you depending on whether your position lies on a taproot, or on a side leg. Since most people don’t earn, one could deduct that most people do not build a side leg or second team. This means if you are on a side leg the chance of having spillover are rare, and even if you had 300 spill over you still will not earn until you build a side leg.
    4. If the income of those “at the top” were residual, pipeline, ongoing and secure, then there would really be no need to jump from one company to another now would there? Once the people at the bottom who can never profit (96%) get tired of spinning their wheels they stop paying into schemes like this. Thus, if you are one of “those at the top” there is a constant need to recruit and replace those who fall by the wayside. For the elite of the elite, like the PC (less than 1/2 of 1%) there may be some ongoing income because they are positioned at the top. If 1 in 300 can earn $1500, it would take 90,000 for those 300 to earn $1500, and 27,000,000 for those 90,000 to earn $1500. Reducing the failure ratio by putting more money at the bottom would help the long-term stability and longevity, but most MLMs are too greedy to do that.
    5. Most companies simply redefine who their customer/distributor base is. That allows them to look like they actually have customers in the eyes of the law. The Monavie income disclosure statement was calling those who weren’t earning checks “CUSTOMERS” meaning they were only involved to buy product. This helps them to appear less like a product based ponzi scheme, and more like a legitimate retail/wholesale model. One could say that the 200 out of 300 people who were not earning a check as demonstrated in the video were merely customers as well, after all they aren’t “working” now are they? Its merely MLM semantics used to rationalize the ridiculous money grab.
    Michael, kudos to whoever was involved with the presentation video you posted. This perhaps is the most solid piece of work I have seen on this entire blog, and just the kind of material that should be used to dispel the rhetoric used by Life proponents. You simply cannot argue with the math, nor the financial outcome derived by the math.

  5. Mike Collins permalink
    June 25, 2012 7:22 am

    I am currently working on a website that is geared to the novice or would be mlm’er that will help them understand the math behind the comp plans and how it affects their success.

    I need to get a couple more videos done as well as some more content before I go live with it. The next comp plan video will be on Monavie.

    You think the numbers are bad in Lief, wait till you see MV’s. It will be accompanied by an analysis of MV’s IDS which corroborates the atrocious numbers associated with ridiculous “opportunities” like these.

  6. webelieved permalink
    June 25, 2012 7:28 am

    I also would have never gotten involved and would have saved years of my life, money, careers etc if I had seen this unbiased information years ago! Thank you Mike! Great Job!
    I know it is best case senario and doesn’t even deal with the facts that it costs WAY more in expenses to show the plan, fill the tank, pay the sitter, food, travel, hotels, etc. When I was all in going Power Player over and over it was way more than a thousand a month in expenses that I was writing off on my taxes! Which is a LOSS. At least at a job you are at a profit right out of the gate and no one can take your pay after you do the work, or change your pay at their whim. According to LIFE’S own P and P’s it is possible and many seen it happen in Orrin’s previous business TEAM, without a contract stating that.

  7. Speak Your Truth permalink
    June 25, 2012 7:34 am

    But..But…orrin did a”‘bench marking study” and said MV was the BEST ..what a liar!.. You can see how long that lasted!!!!

  8. webelieved permalink
    June 25, 2012 7:34 am

    Thank you Mike for giving people FACTS that TEAM/LIFE leaders’ evasive answers cannot argue with! I have a feeling you will be educating Life’s own leaders on something they have no clue about! It is also an article that family members can point their loved ones to. LiFE doctrine cannot argue with it!

  9. webelieved permalink
    June 25, 2012 7:38 am

    Speak- ……….. “A 3+ million dollar ……ughhhhmmph …….. STUDY! I mean raise $$$$ that I NEVER told anyone about when announcing my benchmarking study!”

  10. Speak Your Truth permalink
    June 25, 2012 7:48 am

    Oh but wait he is the all knowing guru…smart than everyone else who would never LIE to anyone and is sooo transparent, has integrity!

    And according to Bill Lewis LIES…says: “He also tells people exactly what is going to happen when they decide to join his business”….THAT IS A BOLD FACED LIE.. BILL How can you LIE like that?.. We were NEVER told “EXACTLY” what was going to happen; not even freakin remotely close!

  11. June 25, 2012 10:07 am

    @Mike – How many people do you think have qualified for the Three for Free program and are getting their $50 subscription for free?

  12. Mike Collins permalink
    June 25, 2012 1:37 pm

    That is a GREAT question Amthrax! Unfortunately, unless “o” decides to make his company transparent and publishes those numbers any guess would be pure speculation.

    Personally I doubt that number is very high at all. Look at the product and ask yourself e few questions. How many people do you know that would buy this stuff? Why would they buy it?if they bought it, how long would they continue to buy it? If they chose to continue to buy it how long until they become converted and decide they want to participate in the comp plan? Once they start participating how long will they continue once they realize how many people they need below them just to get their product paid for? Who will you talk to next to replace the customer you just lost? And on and on and on it goes. It’s the circle of life…….the MLM life.

  13. webelieved permalink
    June 26, 2012 7:18 am

    Speak said
    “Speaking of… “Competitors”…Perhaps orrin & co. should tell the Truth upfront (since Bill Lewis says orrin does EXACTLY that!) to all the Team/LIEfers and fix the problem with their own MLM business!!
    If the compensation plan isn’t dismal enough for everyone….EVERY single person in Team/ LIEF are in competition with each other! Including your own downline!!! Upline, and orrin! The Team LIEfers who supposedly own their own independent business are fighting over the same people in the same communities/territories including your own members!!! You have absolutely NO territorial Rights or protection in Team/LIEf!!!
    It only takes a minute to THINK and realize this is the truth!… “REAL” sales companies protect their sales people territories, for a reason!!
    I can’t even imagine a single free thinking individual who could not see the obvious lies they are trying to convince others of!”

  14. webelieved permalink
    June 26, 2012 7:25 am

    Speak- I love what you said about territories and competition. THAT IS THE TRUTH. I have seen people that are now PC, register a realtor that had already been shown the plan by someone else in another team and the now PC knew it and had actually been told by the Team member this lady was getting started with them. I guess they were that desperate.
    There is such a thing as saturation and I have seen it happen.
    They never tell you that you will be competing with everyone including your downline friends and family and your upline including your PC. Worse, the PC ( Your competitior) can take your teams away from you and assign them to themselves or someone else, after you do the work based on their sole judgment of your character, work ethic etc. Some living hundreds if not thousands of miles away from you! If they take it you have no recourse by signing the contract they have now in LIFE.
    How ethical is that?

  15. Unplugged permalink
    June 26, 2012 12:45 pm

    Hey don’t forget that they change the CD’s in the packs all the time so you need to re-tool yet again, but now instead of using a $10 LIFE CD wit PV you can use a $6 TEAM CD.
    This Just in.

    Effective immediately, we have added a second CD into the 1st Night Pack (TL 142A).


    * Book – The Business of Life by Chris Brady and Orrin Woodward
    * Brochure – TL 197A Define, Learn, Do (single copy)
    * CD – New! – TEAM 647 – Success Begins with the Right Information – Orrin & Laurie Woodward
    * CD – TEAM 648 – The LIFE You’ve Always Wanted – Chris & Terri Brady

    TEAM 647 – Success Begins with the Right Information is also now available to purchase as a single.

    TEAM 647 – Success Begins with the Right Information – Orrin & Laurie Woodward
    In this talk, best selling author Orrin Woodward may as well be a stand up comedian. Accompanied by his beautiful wife, Laurie, this duo is unbeatable. This talk is powerful like a speeding bullet… You’ll want to stock up your ammunition belt and have a hundred copies of this one! Not sure how to crack a tough new contact? You will after this. Contagious, convincing and solid as a rock! Get it now

    As my Boss said “Stay strong Neo. Take the red pill”

  16. Mike Collins permalink
    June 26, 2012 2:52 pm

    Red pill….lol

  17. webelieved permalink
    June 26, 2012 3:08 pm

    Oh my. Crack a tough contact……hmm……could it be a remake of the Handling Objections cd?
    Or… let me guess….. create paranoia about the economy and how bad it is going to get and how screwed up people’s thinking is and how Orrin Woodward and Life are going to be the savior of the free world……. blah blah blah…..I am waiting with my boots on to hear that cd….. then we can walk through the b.s.

  18. webelieved permalink
    June 26, 2012 3:13 pm

    Unplugged- Your boss is hilarious! Sounds like a great guy, he must really care about you!

  19. webelieved permalink
    June 26, 2012 3:37 pm

    Did Orrin Woodward or any PC say how he solicited crossline teams out of Amway that he didn’t build? ie: Billy Florence, Randy Haugen and other’s teams from Amway. Did they happen to mention that they built Amway since @1993 and then took their teams (and other crossline teams) from that business into Monavie in 2008 and took what was left after Team’s dismal failure into LIFE which was just started this past winter? Did Orrin tell them he got 3 million + from MV to take his teams there? Did they tell prospects that Amway and MV where their lifestyles really came from, not LIFE? Did they tell how Team failed miserably building MV and produced fake recognition by having the leaders volume load to produce fake results only to keep others believing?
    I bet they didn’t tell prospects these facts on those first night cds.
    I bet they gave all the credit to LIFE. And left out a whole lot of information, which is typical behavior for this group.
    What a joke.

  20. Freedomhaha permalink
    June 27, 2012 1:13 pm

    Thanks for your work Mike.

  21. June 27, 2012 8:18 pm

    Sound familiar…??

  22. webelieved permalink
    June 28, 2012 7:41 am

    Oh my. Did you guys see Orrin Woodward is a TOP EARNER IN MONAVIE in an article written in May of 2012!!!

    Also pictured are Tim and Amy Marks. Nowhere to be found is Chris Brady or any other Team leaders. Also important to note is Orrin is below Ken Porter who is reported to have 3 million people in his group. I wonder if Orrin is benefitting from spillover from Ken Porter? I also wonder why Orrin and other Team leaders are not getting suspended in Monavie for crossrecruiting Monavie distributors into LIFE? It seems Monavie isn’t following their own rules….
    Does Orrin disclose that he is currently a top Monavie income earner to prospects from stage when he is promoting his LIFE business and not promoting Monavie? All the while his downline leaeders are telling others to drop their Monavie autoships and to spend their money on LIFE?
    Wow he has set himself up for life……and who is greedy? Looks like Orrin made sure his family was taken of. Oh yeah now I get his benchmarking study- 3 million- special deals- lifetime income from multiple businesses! Seems Orrin has multiple incomes and doesn’t want anyone else to do that. What a hypocrite!

  23. webelieved permalink
    June 28, 2012 7:42 am

    The more you find out the sicker this all gets….

  24. Speak Your Truth permalink
    June 28, 2012 11:52 am


    “The more you find out the sicker this all gets….”

    So True…it’s those “pesky little facts” that allow others to SEE and use common sense… the real motives become crystal clear and all the strategic games they play become so obvious.

    Hiding and withholding information (using deception) is a cornerstone to the MLM industry but pretty hard in today’s “information age” to hide…and others sick and tired of the lies who are bring a lot of light (truth) to orrin & co. and the MLM industry as a whole. Their M.O. is to create confusion by deceiving others and creating the murky darkness with mixed and double messages.

    But people gain clarity, due to facts and others experiences they themselves can relate to their own experience…then the majority of the pieces of the puzzle fall together and others begin to see the whole picture and truth!

    That is how it works and although orrin & co. try so desperately to spin, lie, Hype and twist the truth….people are seeing right through them! They make themselves and the system ‘seem’ & ‘sound’ as if they are the ONLY ones in the whole world are life coaching and bettering the world… they pretend everyone is so happy and use indoctrinating repeated messages over and over…create….a cult of personality (orrin) that everyone is suppose to idolize, worship and adapt or be like the all knowing ‘guru’, they intentionally keep the truth hidden from the masses….the hierarchy is an authoritarian style no questions asked, blindly trust and they use punishment and rewards based on who they believe is the loyalists. BUT…more and more people are becoming aware of these truths because you can’t fool all the people all the time and the TRUTH… always will finds you out!

    With many facts coming out, people figure out (on their own) they aren’t who they pretend and promote themselves to be!

    Orrin & co. know for a fact they are deceiving others and know the odds of anyone ever ‘making it’ to PC is slim to none. They are promoting false hope and creating despair; for the majority!

    They know their MLM isn’t viable and is no different than any other top heavy internal consumption MLM with overpriced rebranded same ole information (the same reasons they try and claim credit and heroism in suing Amway for!) I have no doubts they too are a build & replace business and have atrocious attrition rates! Their comp plan is just another Top heavy plan to keep the TOP less than 1% ‘taking’ from the bottom 99%, although they have always ‘claimed’ they are NOT like anyone else!!

    The P&P gives them the ‘legal right’ to use unfair business practices IMO and allows them the discretion to take others business’s and incomes even though they teach and promise ‘passive residual ongoing willable income! The P&P legally also allows them to control and lord over others!

    They know without a shaddow of doubt these truths…Their comp plan and their copied “system”came from Amway/Dexter Yager and others…IT is designed for the majority to fail and keep others in with undue influence and cult-like and deceptive techniques.

    Their main goal is to keep the masses…UNIFORMED and BELIEVING… in their supposed noble ’cause’ to so they will keep ‘paying’ them the Top less than 1% and they want others to believe ; God has ‘called’ the masses and them to the business.

    From my perspective and experience and facts I have found out or later learned over time they are not who they say they are! It is sick game that they prey on others deepest disires mis-leading them to believe everyone will have what they have….and is a very destructive and cult-like, and most definitely a bad business to get involved with if you expect to get a return on your investment!

  25. Chris permalink
    June 30, 2012 9:17 pm

    It’s definitely worth noting that team ever since changing to life to monavie has put monavie on the backburner. At last major monavie was barely mentioned. The last three I went to, it almost seems there easing away from it gradually. I bet in the future all the cds will be replaced that mentions Monavie in it. I bet everyone will be pressured to buy.all the new cd packs eventually or like that usually do, put old cds that are.of the best rename them and make a cd pack. Now of course is.the pressure to get new night packs. Information that is recycled over and over again, come on that’s your product? A product that the new person might like. The first couple months I liked it as Now it’s like get over yourselves, I get new cds and they all sound the same. The same info over and over spoken by different. speakers.

  26. Chris permalink
    June 30, 2012 9:22 pm

    Correction: monavie to team

  27. webelieved permalink
    June 30, 2012 9:55 pm

    The same stuff repackaged over and over…just a new name and the same game, minus the juice, laundry soap etc. Welcome Chris, glad your here.

  28. webelieved permalink
    June 30, 2012 9:56 pm

    Chris- wondering what you think of Mike’s videos?

  29. webelieved permalink
    June 30, 2012 10:10 pm

    I was wondering how you found this site? A lot of exmembers have spoken out here, some former round tables and triple 100’s, some seem to have been very close to Orrin.

  30. webelieved permalink
    July 1, 2012 7:31 am

    Yeah and I bet like always they don’t teach you how to run a real business. Just a bunch of cliches, one liners and
    Life/Team isn’t your business as DISTRIBUTORS OWN NOTHING, have a right to nothing, not even the business group you build. What liars.

  31. webelieved permalink
    July 2, 2012 8:16 am

    Hey Amthrax did you see Orrin’s post on Whistleblowers? May be a great post about the commenters here, at least the first part, until he starts his twisting. He is really somethin….

  32. July 2, 2012 9:33 am

    I hadn’t seen the article until now.

  33. Mike Collins permalink
    July 2, 2012 10:33 am

    Can one of you post a link to his “whistleblowing?”

  34. Mike Collins permalink
    July 2, 2012 10:34 am

    Nevermind,,,,,I found it on the new post you put up. thanks Amthrax!

  35. Speak Your Truth permalink
    July 2, 2012 10:51 am

    orrin woodward and the Liefers brag 70% of the ‘profits’ are paid out… but 95% WILL FAIL BT DESIGN?!! Amazing! Funny how 30% is left over for what….? Would this be for overhead..or is it as I have heard it called the ‘war chest’… the orrin factor? Who knows I doubt they will ever be transparent and knowing what…that would be a given.

    I am so thankful for these videos and even more thanful we are gone, we have never been happier! I never in well over a decade EVER been told this truth! And it wasn’t for lack of going to the ‘business training seminars and majors or listening to thousands of cds and hundreds of books’ nor was it that the TOP PC didn’t know this….they choose to mislead and keep those facts from the masses…it is so obvious…they simply DON’T want this information available they spin it to where they ‘sound’ as if they are so ‘fair’…HA!… IT is a no brainer all else aside and just from a business standpoint, it is a bad business ‘investment’…and who after knowing this is your fate…would in their right mind would continue to throw their money to the top and spend and spend and spend to never earn a profit..that is insane! Thankful we regained our thanks to the liefers but a huge thanks to Amthrax, Mike Collins and also Brents and many others such as Pyramid Scheme Alter on years of efforts and answering questions specific important, need to know to make an informed business decision…on the LIFE comp plan and other MLM’s!

    orrin woodward and the PC who know this… had the opportunity for decades and many thousands of opportunities to ‘train’ others (which they gained their lifestyles from) on these FACTS, instead they chose to ‘mislead’ and deceive others by keeping them believing for years they would become financially independant through everyone’s ‘own’ independent business by bringing the numbers to the team system…which obviously they don’t own!

    It is crystal clear now….Thanks for these videos!

  36. Speak Your Truth permalink
    July 2, 2012 10:58 am

    Funny I just went to wiki about that same whistle blowers definition a while back and was going to post it here because it describes the comments, the videos, and our experiences and fits Amthrax and facts on his site to a “Tee”!

    “Mobbing & Bullying”…for sure!!

  37. Mike Collins permalink
    July 2, 2012 2:59 pm

    Hey folks!
    I just thought I would give you all an update on the Lief video series. YouTube has a feature that includes analytics that allows you to see the geographical area in which the videos are being watched.

    Here are the top 7 countries so far. Remember, the video was only published June 19, 2012 and Amthrax put up the link here on June 25, 2012

    The video has had 330 views

    Here is a list of the top countries for number of views:
    1. United States 289
    2. Canada 30
    3. Sweden 4
    4. France 3
    5. Mexico 2
    6. Singapore 1
    7. India 1
    Here is a breakdown of the U.S. by state:
    1. Michigan 74
    2. California 73
    3. Idaho 25
    4. Wisconsin 20
    5. Illinois 15
    6. Texas 13
    7. Maryland 9
    8. South Dakota 6
    9. Missouri 5
    10. Tennessee 5
    11. Pennsylvania 4
    12. Florida 4
    13. Georgia 4
    14. Minnesota 3
    15. Utah 3
    16. South Carolina 3
    17. Arizona 3
    18. Kansas 3
    19. Ohio 3
    20. Washington 2
    21. Indiana 2
    22 .Iowa 2
    23. Colorado 2
    24. New York 2
    25. Massachusetts 1

  38. webelieved permalink
    July 2, 2012 3:07 pm

    Mike- That’s awesome! Looks like truthful information is getting out to help people make informed and educated choices!

  39. webelieved permalink
    July 3, 2012 3:29 am

    Amthrax- Could this be added to the Life Primer ?

  40. webelieved permalink
    July 5, 2012 8:51 am

    Mike and Brent- In Team/LIFE Power Player is the play. Power Player consists of a distributor showing 15 plans a month and being on full system, everything . You will sign up 10 on one leg and 5 on your other leg over a 3 month period to be called a power player. Four will be on system out of the 10 in leg 1, and 2 will be on system out of the 5 in leg 2. So therefore = 6 people on system in a perfect world out of showing 45 plans over a 3 month period by one person! THIS IS A BIG ORDEAL IF ONE DOES THIS IN TEAM, AND IT WAS TOUGH TO DO IT. You are considered ELITE if you can do it!
    In Team only the people on system stayed with the business and kept buying their volume (internally consumed) and most/almost none of these EVER built the business or showed 15 plans. They just bought their volume and hung around. This has been proven to be true on Team over and over. Therefore if you were the only one in your team showing 15 plans a month, you would only have a net gain of 6 people added on system/that might stay for the long haul, every 90 days! So a total of 24 people who may stay long term are added per year to your team. This is in a perfect world where no one quit the system, everyone kept buying their volume, the product was worth continuing to pay for and had value. So it could take what 12 years for one person to get to 300 people if one was building it themselves! Don’t forget you have all your expenses gas, food, lodging, tickets, babysitters, etc. Not a very good gamble is it?

    Of course the teambots will say well you have a whole bunch of people working together to build leg one. But what they don’t tell you is your upline makes more money by focusing on their other leg. SO once you build leg one, they will jump out and spend their time on their other leg and keep telling you “keep doing what you’re doing”.” “love you man”.
    Brent and Mike, maybe you can comment.

  41. webelieved permalink
    July 5, 2012 9:01 am

    Should have said ” So once you build leg one for your upline, they will jump out and spend the majority of their time in their other leg……”

    It is a build and replace the majority that you bring in business. Your income is not residual, JUST READ THE p AND p’S. You never get your time back because you continually have to replace the majority of people that you brought in!


  42. Brent Hansen permalink
    July 5, 2012 9:36 am

    Great point Webelieved, statistically speaking MLM retention numbers are somewhere in the neighborhood of 15%. If the Life program is average, which I believe it to be, that would indicate you would need to recruit or enroll somewhere around 2,000 people to end up with your 300 doing $50 each.

    I distinctly remember hitting the 7500 PV level in Amway with around 600-700 people in our team, and about 60-80 regularly attending seminars. The numbers you give above directly coincide with what I found as well.

    Interesting thing was no one (including ourselves) were profitable at that point. Our business was paid for, but there were no profits, and no one else could even cover their own 100 PV, let alone tickets or tools.

    In reality, 100% of us were unprofitable even though we were generating $15-$25,000 a month in sales as a group.

    Bottom line is if you are not able to retail for whatever reason, whether it be product, or price, you are in an unsustainable model. There has to be sales to end users outside of the compensation structure in order to bring new people into profit. However, I do not count members / distributors who are hoping to earn from the plan as customers. Many MLMs redefine those who aren’t earning as “CUSTOMERS”. If that be the case with Life, as it is with so many other companies, then as illustrated in Michael’s video above 200 is to 300, as 9,000 is to 13,500.

  43. Mike Collins permalink
    July 5, 2012 10:24 am

    Personally I don’t have a problem with internal consumption. What I do have a problem with is, like Brent commented, “redefining” distributors as “wholesale customers” in an attempt to explain why this group is not making money. The MLM pundits argue that this group isn’t making money because they simply “don’t want to”. They only want “to get the product at a discount.”

    This is simply not true. A quick analysis of any back office along with a few phone calls to a sample group of people would prove that the majority of people get involved with MLM to “make money” or create a secondary income. PERIOD! End of story. Any pro, semi or otherwise that has been involved with network marketing for any period of time knows this.

    The “redefining” is simply rhetoric regurgitated by the industry to obscure the fact that these top heavy comp plans are what lay at the heart of the problem i.e. most people fail to make any money at all. And it is because it is BY DESIGN.

    If you want a fair shot at making an income in MLM then learn about compensation then pick a company with a reasonable ratio of people/sales needed to actually earn an income.

    BUT, be prepared to compete with the latest and greatest, shiny, trendy, catchy new company that is building their business the old fashioned way: By buying off a bunch of self serving, fast talking so called “industry leaders” that are really nothing more than polished front men/women that have honed their ability to repeat the industry rhetoric, ad infinitum, to a razors edge.

  44. Speak Your Truth permalink
    July 5, 2012 11:19 am

    Great Points Webelieved & Thanks!

    Based on this, One could then add up the ‘hours’ it would take for 1 person to add measly 24 on system per year! (We know all 24 Don’t stay in after 1 year that would ONLY happen in a ‘perfect world’!), It is a build and replace business period!

    Going Power Player is their game/ ‘main thing’ and it would take 180 plans per person(15 per mo. x 12 mo.) and at a bare minimum of 180 hours of your personal time ( a whole lot more if you are taking those people to opens @least 3 hours with plan & night-owly..haha one-on-one don’t forget to add in the ‘finding a need’ and their dream time and this isn’t even adding in ALL the rest of the hours and days (meetings) it will take you to be a “Power-Player!”

    Funny their game was always been to ask “What is Your TIME Worth?” I say; Great Question, now figure it out! Add up your OWN personal TIME, per year; just to add 24 on system as webelieved states… who will not stick! I guarantee all 24 of those you got on system will NOT remain on system or even in the business, so you will be “spinning your wheels” to replace them and add new.

    And from experience it takes 100’s of people (probably more now that people are telling what it really takes 🙂 ) to ‘find’ 1 good ‘builder’ crazy enough to ignore the facts, who will stick for you to have leverage-multiplier who would ‘join’ in the madness and insanity to repeat and do what you are doing! I also know from experience it took about 5 good builders to replace those who quit and to maintain a platinum ship in Q/A or 7500 points.

    I doubt it be any different in the LIEf business.. It would take at least 37 people/ internal consuming 200 points each to get to 7500 points and those 37 people are never repeats….check your attrition rates…the names are constantly changing ‘on system’, that is a fact… you may get 2 new system and find out 3 existing went off!!

    So the point is keep track of YOUR personal ‘investment’ of not only MONEY but just as important; TIME and How many quit and get off system on a monthly basis, Keep TRACK of your exspenses vs your acutal profit, don’t lie to yourself or ignore it, how many people do you have showing 15 plans month after month with you, and all the important indicators to show you your ‘real business story’ and no doubt this will give you a great idea if it is ‘worth it?’ One thing about this is you have to flush the cd ‘hopefull’ playing in your head and examine the cold hard facts and reality.

    How much money, hours and days are you spending to go to ladies/men leaderships, opens, seminars, majors, ‘special’ trips to your ‘upline’ or orrin’s or other PC (thousands of miles, hours, & money) plans, whatever they call them similar to AA/NA/Small church group type; ‘sit in a circle confession meetings’ etc… to get it done and you will have an idea of how many YEARS it will take for you to get to 300 people?

    Mike shows this in the comp plan video which clearly points out ONLY 15 out of 300 of those people they say they are ‘helping win’…will break even on their “1” subscription of 50 bucks! How doesn’t anyone claim that is ‘helping people?’

    I will say from my perspective and years of building experience, it was certainly far from ‘easy’ and most definitely NOT worth the ‘investment’ not even close of our precious time wasted and lost away from our children/ families and all other things we value and are most important to us) or money to end up being betrayed, lied to,deceived, undue influenced used, miles drive, and all costs and OUR efforts and teams destructed and destroyed and ‘passive residual income’ stolen.

    It is insanity how much Time, Money and Effort, the Team/ LIEf will suck out of you and your children, families, churches, etc.. if you only will face the brutal reality, keep track and are paying attention!

  45. Speak Your Truth permalink
    July 5, 2012 11:23 am

    correction: ” How doesn’t (DOES) anyone claim that is ‘helping people?’

  46. Brent Hansen permalink
    July 5, 2012 11:25 am

    Great point Mike, I get so zeroed in on one thing that I tend to generalize. I too agree that if a product is at or below market value, even if the ratio is not good, there is nothing wrong with an internal consumption model. As long as people aren’t becoming “indentured customers” merely captivated by rhetoric and or a tool system.

    When I say “able to retail” that is synonymous with correctly priced. I haven’t mentioned this yet but I spoke with a CEO/Owner the other day who just had an event in another country with 1,000 plus attendees. I asked him if he charged for entrance, his response, “No, we paid for everything out of corporate profits.” Although I don’t like or agree with his compensation plan, I admire his thinking and commitment to investing in others. It wasn’t just a meeting either, he had entertainment, food, and everything. On the other side of the coin Mike, what does that tell you?

  47. Speak Your Truth permalink
    July 5, 2012 11:48 am

    The most disturbing truth about the whole thing is it takes supposed ‘critics’ to get ‘blamed’ because they had to ‘learn’ and figure things out through loss and suffering… the hard way, to educate the naive and uniformed about their MLMers “own” buisness comp plans because the “training companies” feel they have to twist, spin, reframe, keep people in the dark,hide and keep secrets, give only partial information etc. and the ‘critisc’ don’t even get paid to educate them naive and uniformed…. for them!

    Rather…the real educators/critics get to be called “Amway Failure Drones” and all kinds of other loser, hater… derogatory criticizing and condemning names to educate those who the “training companies” are charging the naive and uniformed mutlimillions of dollars to supposedly educate them on how to run their business!

    What a twisted messed up industry!

  48. Mike Collins permalink
    July 5, 2012 11:52 am

    I don’t give one rip what they call me. Every one of them folds like a cheap suit when hammered with the facts of their comp plan. Stick to the facts……..the rhetoric dries up……or the one spewing it runs away…………EVERY TIME!

  49. Speak Your Truth permalink
    July 5, 2012 12:09 pm

    Mike~ hahaha

    I have no doubts you don’t give a rip what they call you and neither do I, the truth is sufficent… but once again it is the hypocrisy from their own ‘preaching’ that stands out here!

    These guys build their business by misleading and deception…Remember they don’t “tear down the tallest building to make theirs the tallest”..they live by “Christian Principles” are “Godly men & women”…”Don’t criticize, condemn, or compain”, they have “integrity are honest”… pure to their core….”on and off stage”…they have high “EQ”…their verbal battle is over that was when orrin was young and naive…”they have a world-class system” that “changes people and will change the world for the better”… and on and on and on and on!!!

    Their hypocrisy is sickening.

  50. Speak Your Truth permalink
    July 5, 2012 12:15 pm

    These holier than thou, the hyped up edification, and the titles they ‘claim’ of themselves are exactly what gets the naive and gullible to TRUST, blindly follow and stick! If their business and they themselves were as ‘good’ as they lie about then people might be able to view the FACTS and not have their vision be blurred and distorted.

  51. webelieved permalink
    July 5, 2012 3:53 pm

    “Interesting thing was no one (including ourselves) were profitable at that point. Our business was paid for, but there were no profits, and no one else could even cover their own 100 PV, let alone tickets or tools.

    In reality, 100% of us were unprofitable even though we were generating $15-$25,000 a month in sales as a group.”- Brent

    I agree- when we said we were making money, we were not making a profit. The higher up you get the more you have to spend, meetings, trips, travel etc. And the majority of my group was in the same state. Unprofitable is right. Once you get that far you feel trapped and like you may almost be there. But when you look downline not many/ if any were making a profit.

    Mike and Brent- If you call your distributors who want to make money, customers, is that legal? I thought that would be the definition of an internal consumption/ illegal pyramid scheme? Isn’t that the same argument Orrin made against Amway when he was an Amway distributor making millions off his tool scheme?

    For profitablility are you saying you need a product you can sell outside the structure? I agree but by law you need it too, I thought.

  52. webelieved permalink
    July 5, 2012 3:58 pm

    Mike- I agree. If they had a viable product would they not lead with the product? I would say if you look at the LIFE/TEAM business, they lead with selling the business, never the product. In fact we NEVER led with the product. EVERY distributor got in the business on the promise of making money. That is a red flag to a pyramid scheme to me, correct me if I am wrong.

  53. webelieved permalink
    July 5, 2012 3:59 pm

    So to me those people are DISTRIBUTORS, NOT TRUE CUSTOMERS.

  54. webelieved permalink
    July 5, 2012 4:04 pm

    Everyone I knew beat themselves up for not going Power Player, thought something was wrong with them if they couldn’t do it because they didn’t know the real facts. Now they do. GOING POWER PLAYER OVER AND OVER DOESN’T GIVE ONE A SUSTAINABLE BUSINESS WITHOUT USING DECEPTIVE PRACTICES IN MY OPINION .

  55. Brent Hansen permalink
    July 6, 2012 4:14 am

    @Webelieve the very idea and thought of having “external” customers, or retail customer laws in place is that there must be an opportunity for everyone, even those that get in late.

    The question the FTC asks is can someone who gets in late, after a certain saturation point, still earn money from the company without recruiting.

    Lets face the truth! Most companies have hyper-inflated product prices for which they have to create a story to move the product. The modus operandi for a company is this.

    1. Find, create, or develop a product.

    2. Hyper-inflate the price enough to cover multiple levels of commission and still make a huge profit for the company.

    3. Create a “snake oil” or ludicrous story in order to move the product because it is priced incorrectly.

    I agree with Michael’s statement above that it really doesn’t matter if something is internal-consumption or not if the product is fairly priced and is something people want, need, and desire.

    Lets take a very common product that everyone is using, say a cell phone. If the average American was spending $75 -$100 per month on a cell phone, and company A could provide the same quality of service, same price, but have 30-40% margin in it to create and pay a network, would it be a bad model?

    A cell phone is one thing, but how about a $45 dollar bottle of juice, or a $30 box of laundry soap, or a $40 seminar ticket, is there real value in those items? Are they competitive in the market place, or merely money transfer mechanisms?

    Lots of subjectivity here, that is why I don’t like to discuss products. The MLM apologists like Dooly are constantly ranting about products, but I honestly believe that if it couldn’t sell on the shelf at Walmart it really has no business being in the MLM arena either.

  56. Brent Hansen permalink
    July 6, 2012 4:29 am

    @Webelieved, case in point, hope this helps. Here is a perfect example of my last post. I know the manufacturer of this product, and can purchase this from him for less than $5. In that $5 cost lies his manufacturing costs, and his profit.

    Now, what would be a reasonable retail price if my cost was $5? The practice of keystone pricing is to double the price at each level of distribution. Since there would only be one level of distribution if I offered the product as a business owner, the price should then be $10 correct?

    The problem is in the MLM arena keystoning is not practiced. Here is the same product I can get for $5 sold through an MLM model.

    Its painfully obvious that MLMs have to hyper-inflate just to pay commissions and make a profit. But 800% markup, is that really necessary? The hyper-inflated pricing is justified by creating a B.S. story to move the product.

    Whether its B.S. health claims, or B.S. leadership claims, it is still B.S.

    Cd replication is less than $1 so why $10? Its simple, indentured customers will pay more. Put the so called “leadership” cds on the shelf at Walmart and see what happens.

  57. webelieved permalink
    July 6, 2012 2:51 pm

    Thanks Brent. I love when we go back to the basics. I was in this industry for years, and considered successful in the Team and yet I could not explain how it all worked, or really why it wasn’t working for most. I just followed the rhetoric and the mixed messages I heard. I just wondered the whole time why people were quitting and “giving up on their dreams”. We were never taught to look at the cold, hard facts of the business, products, pricing, expenses, time investment, just “believe, work harder, become a leader, read more, it’s a 2-5 year program, build leaders” etc. Questions were answered with another question, or evasive answers Just believe…..

  58. Mike Collins permalink
    July 6, 2012 7:38 pm

    @ Webelieved: you weren’t taught to look at the cold hard facts…….you’re taught to do the exact opposit. Because, if your “why” makes you “cry” the cold hard facts won’t matter.

    And this is why I enjoy so much what I do. When I can blow holes in the rhetoric of “men” like o, troy dooly, ken stewart, Tom Chennault, or randy schroeder, Simply by telling the truth it makes it very satisfying. “men” like this don’t want the facts told to the masses. When the masses learn the “game” they might not get in. And we all know what a negative reputation MLM has don’t we? I wonder why…….

  59. Mike Collins permalink
    July 13, 2012 9:38 am

    Hi All!
    Just thought I would give you an update on the Life comp plan video analytics so you can see who is watching. Apparently quite a few are watching.

    So far there have been 446 total views for the video series.

    Here is a breakdown by country

    United States





    Here is the break down by state for the U.S.

    1. Michigan












    South Dakota






    South Carolina

    New York



    District of Columbia






    New Mexico

    I’m almost finished with the Monavie Comp Plan Analysis video. Should have it up soon. I will send the links to Amthrax when it’s ready and he can decide how he wants to post it.

  60. Brent Hansen permalink
    July 14, 2012 2:38 pm

    Mike, interesting stats, seems that Michigan is taking a good gander at your video, hope the Michiganers like the truth.

    Can’t wait to see what you have in store with the Monavie flim-flam. I have heard they did a recent revamp (money grab), which reallocated a lot of dollars that were previously paid out.

    A good video should expose the ingenius benchmarking skills of orrin woodward. I have always believe that he drove his group off of a cliff, but hey, what do I know? Just my opinion of course.

  61. Speak Your Truth permalink
    July 17, 2012 2:43 pm

    Thanks Mike! The numbers are growing! You gotta love it when people are transparent; Now there is a ‘leadership’ lesson!

    The Monavie Comp Plan ought to be real interesting. Pair that up with the LIEf comp plan and that will bring blinding facts of the tsunami of losses the Team Liefer perpetrated on the masses!

    Wonder how it is going to compare to the self-serivng “bench marking study” that was done… what selfish greed.

  62. webelieved permalink
    July 18, 2012 5:46 am

    I have a feeling the numbers are going to keep growing, you know each one reach one!

  63. Mike Collins permalink
    August 24, 2012 5:19 pm

    I thought that maybe a select few of you might like to know the latest statistics of who is watching the video series and where they are from.

    Country Views
    United States 530
    Canada 56
    Sweden 4
    France 3
    Mexico 2
    Australia 1
    Brazil 1
    Singapore 1
    Serbia 1
    Philippines 1
    India 1

    Break down by state in U.S. territory

    1. Michigan 136
    2. California 111
    3. Illinois 40
    4. Idaho 34
    5. Wisconsin 33
    6. Texas 24
    7. Missouri 18
    8. Maryland 17
    9. Florida 12
    10. Arizona 12
    11. Ohio 10
    12. Pennsylvania 9
    13. Utah 9
    14. Washington 8
    15. Colorado 8
    16. New York 8
    17. Tennessee 7
    18. Kansas 6
    19. South Dakota 6
    20. Georgia 4
    21. District of Columbia 3
    22. Minnesota 3
    23. Iowa 3
    24. South Carolina 3
    25. Oklahoma 3
    26. Indiana 2
    27. Massachusetts 1
    28. Mississippi 1
    29. Nebraska 1
    30. North Carolina 1
    31. New Mexico 1
    32. New Jersey 1
    33. Kentucky 1

  64. Mike Collins permalink
    August 24, 2012 5:23 pm

    Since I posted the video series on June 19,2012 there have been a total of 601 views.

    I am almost done with the Monavie series ( got a little sidetracked but I’m back on it)

    I have also decided to do a condensed version of the Life comp plan that will be about 3 or 4 slides mainly consisting of the info on video 3 that shows where most of the money is going
    ( to the top)

    Sorry it’s taken me this long folks.

  65. musthavebeenterriblemother permalink
    August 24, 2012 6:47 pm

    Mike C: not that I’m the person you want to hear from here (said the bottom-line philosopher to the mathematician), but did you hear what Marc Militello said on his Utube video dated 4/17/12? Something like this: he asks the crowd a hypthetical question: what’s the worst thing that can happen to you if you just get in it for yourself and basically, just sit there…..(if you haven’t listened to it already, go see if I heard him correctly, okay

    Anyway: I couldn’t believe my ears when I thought I heard him say—–> as he’s pointing upward from the first vertical row of empty circles,—–> that the worst case scenario is this—-> you keep climbing up and you could end up at the 25% compensation level.

    I have their compensation book, and that’s not what I’m seeing. I am seeing exactly what your video shows. BTW, I thought I got to your vid the first time from an actual female team leader of LIFE (and she actually had the link right to their compensation book)—in other words, I didn’t watch it on here first. (only, I do not recall seeing the miserable percentages the first time, either.) I am confused because when I clicked onto this vid on AMTHRAX, I recognized your voice right away.

  66. freedomhaha permalink
    August 25, 2012 2:50 am

    Mike- Thanks for your work!

  67. Brent Hansen permalink
    August 25, 2012 5:48 am

    @Mike, looking forward to your analysis of the Monavie plan, show it like it is! Like Dr. Taylor so plainly demonstrates in his online examples, the chances of earning are greater in a casino than by engaging in these predatory models. Thanks for the hard-core facts!

  68. OhBeJoyful permalink
    August 25, 2012 1:14 pm

    Mike, You might consider doing a video that shows the annual growth rate and time-frame required to achieve a particular organization size. For example, to grow an organization from a single individual to 300 customers and distributors in: 5 years requires a 213% annual growth rate; 4 years requires a 316% annual growth rate; and in 3 years requires a 569% annual growth rate. If the organization continues to grow at the same rate, in six to ten years it will have 90,000 members. This, I believe, is larger than the LIFE business today!

  69. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    August 25, 2012 2:19 pm

    Did you guys ever see this research study/report by John M. Taylor, MBA, PhD of the Consumer Awareness Institute on the www at: , called: The Case (for and) Against Multi-Level Marketing (the link goes to Chapter 7 and is entitled: MLM’s Abysmal Numbers; 40 pages; with forms.

    Wow, what an historic eye-opener, too! (And yes, they cover Amway, too.) They looked at 30 of the largest MLM schematics, and tried to be as scientific as possible. Their old stats seem to bear witness to what’s presented by Mike on LIFE. Not sure if there’s already references to this study, but thought I’d stick it on here–think I got to it from a Wisconsin Consumer Protection site.

  70. Mike Collins permalink
    August 25, 2012 2:26 pm

    Oh be joyful: I like the way you think. That particular analysis might prove very difficult though consIdering the fact that in order to calculate growth, you would have to calculate “net” growth.
    When you add in the attrition factor that is caused by A. Simple human behavior and B. breakage mechanisms that force attrition you have an equation that is very hard to quantify.

    I know you will appreciate my Monavie compensation analysis and it’s follow up video on the Monavie income disclosure statement because the comp plan analysis shows the maximum numbers that can be brought into profit BUT the IDS analysis shows the ACTUAL effect of both factors.

  71. Mike Collins permalink
    August 25, 2012 2:36 pm

    Wisdom: IMHO Dr. Taylor is a genious. I have spoken with him personally and he is a genuine person who truly wants to help people understand. I have read his book and though I may not agree with him on every single premis, his book is right on point.

    These so called “MLM experts” try to marginalized him because they say his data is out dated. It is anything but…..and I have the data to prove it. AND, it’s not because I’m special. There are others who have it. People simply need to understand the difference between a “statistic” and a “mathematical equation”. Statistics can be manipulated. MATH cannot! 2 + 2 either equals 4 or it doesn’t.

  72. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    August 26, 2012 9:08 am

    Mike: I’m assuming your statment about manipulating statistics is because, unlike with pure math, with stats you can look at something with false/skewed assumptions or premises/hypotheses and end up getting numbers you were looking for that may erroneously support what you wanted to find in the first place? Anyway, I’m glad the local numbers guru here likes Taylor, too, because I thought I learned something in reading his methodologies.

    Will you look at the different poohbah levels in LIFE’s 10-page Compensation Plan, and re-explain “leader depth” bonusing, etc? I’m assuming that there’s a lot of leaders in the downline bringing in big bucks? My big search is: how is it statistically or mathematically possible for someone at the PC level to earn 1/4 million dollars per month, using the poohbah levels and examples in the Member Comp Plan? Also: how many will ever achieve that?

    Also, please,please…. look at Marc M’s U-tube video, will you? His explanation of how people get percentages, and how you are brought in at a certain level seem screwy.

  73. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    September 29, 2012 1:31 pm

    For Mike Collins (and Amthrax: if not appropriate on this thread—feel free to move it):

    The Mathematics of A Couple Switching Overnight to “become” LIFE/teamers.

    (@Mike Collins: was working on this long before you complimented me on a different post today—so up front: sorry if too many paragraphs (this is two typed pages), but the math would be confusing without a background scenario—and you’d have no way to evaluate scenario if I just blurted out the bottom line without using real-life figures.)

    Unbeknown to you, Mike C. , after some long talks with an ex-teamer who knows the score, I have been spending time doing mathematical crunches in creating a hypothetical family of 4 switching abruptly from a two-parent income JOB household to a two-parent LIFE/teamers household.

    To start: we gave them two kids aged 10, and both parents have stable, long-term blue collar jobs, grossing $50k each with benefits. T=$100,000 gross income. The company benefit packages total an extra $42,000 total in money they do not have to fork out per annum. They live in a now-devalued blue-collar cape cod home on a typical city lot in a SE WI city.

    We took real life situation check stubs of someone who works for a top-rated company (ranked in the top 50 by Forbes) and applied it to this family. We gave them a current total of $75k in 401k assets and a savings account worth $15k.

    Hypothetically, they still owe $128k on a home that would now sell, due to devaluation, at about $110k (prior to the collapse, they should have sold the fixed up property for at least $185-190k). Overall, they’ve lost about $75+k on upgrades and the regular devaluation. If they live in Milwaukee, they’re likely paying about $4500 in property taxes, so we gave them a remaining 15 yrs on a 20 yr, 6% fixed rate mortgage at an escrowed $1500/mo payment.

    We gave them modest standard utility heat/electric/water and cable/landline/internet for this area at a year-round average of $500/mo.; a savings account added to $300/mo.; contributions at a company % match into 401k plans totally about $1200/month between the three sources; a car payment of $325/mo.($20k owed on car with lien; other car a little older and paid for); 2 credit card bills totaling $15k which they pay a total of $500/month on;4 cell phones for all at $200/mo;

    $180/mo on two cars–insurance rates from the cheapest company big name company we could find for Milwaukee city area; $15/month on two little kids’ modest insurance policies; $50/month for extra death/dismemberment private insurance on each other; clothing allowances of $3k per annum, and they take any hundreds/thousands left per month to put in a fund for their kids college educations (they could possibly save at most about $150,000 in 8 yrs, because they didn’t start until the kids were 10 yrs of age) or take annual better family vacations, etc.

    Even though stable: currently they are in the equity hole: Their assets against liabilities now total $90k – $75k in market losses, less the $20k still owed on one car. They are in hole.

    We came up with this, when all was said and done: Between actual spending and saving, (and after their 401ks, health care, etc., are taken out pretax, and other company insurances are taken out post-tax, and after taking out their taxes), they bring home net and use about $6,000 clear per month. If I have to get more specific, this’ll be 7 pages long—and then ya won’t read it or see if it’s accurate for me.

    NOW THE OVERNIGHT JUMP TO A COUPLE DOING LIFE/Team only (I just can’t evaluate on how long this took them to accomplish, so I had to make it abrupt):

    This hypothetical couple now turns around the next day and quit both of their jobs because they believe they are doing astoundingly well—why, it’s now twice what they made the day before!

    By the time we got done with increased income tax rates, increased saving for 2 college educations that would actually cover the bills ($250,000 excluding earned interest—this should just about pay for two kids attending UWM-Madison?); and….

    worst of all: this couple is now buying all of their own exhorbitant (matched to company’s) health, dental, vision, disability, life insurances, etc., (could add $1200+/mo or more); and keeping up their 401ks themselves at their prior matched rates (about $1600/mo.) and, of course, thousands more are spent on building/maintaining their LIFE/Team business (we were very modest and only used a $700+/month figure)—-

    —-we came to the SHOCKING CONCLUSION that in order to do this, they would have to bring in at least $200,000 gross per annum total as two successful LIFE/Teamers JUST to maintain—their only “plus” here is more saved for college educations and keeping up savings and 401ks AND IF FRUGAL, getting home paid off some years early. We figured that their expenses could easily climb to $13,000-$14,000/month due to flying solo with the “team” and they’d hardly ever be home for the kids, either. (Remember in this scenario, they did this overnight with all of their current assets and liabilities “as is”)

    The bottom line: this is how the modest middle-class LIFE/Team couple would have to live for at least the next 7 to 8 yrs, until they have the sum needed for their kids’ college educations. Then for the next few years after that, they would finish paying off their modest home early to save interest fees. So 10 to 15 years down the road, IF—BIG IF– the LIFE/Team business would still exist in an economy that never fully recovered, and IF this couple remained at their current biz status, THEN perhaps they could start living the “higher life”—to truly begin to live their so-called dream.

    Invite Mike Collins to correct scenario. It looks pretty dire to me already, but I am sure you know more about this than I do, and I may have made mistakes/omissions….so I’m afraid it could be even MORE dire.

  74. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    September 29, 2012 1:46 pm

    Correction for Mike Collins on this hypothetical couple being in the hole: they are way more in the hole: I forgot to add the $128k in property liability and $15k in credit card liability…so overall, with that added to the initial $5k in the hole: they start out the next day in LIFE/Team $148k in liabilities and reality zero assets at that point in time?

  75. Mike Collins permalink
    September 29, 2012 4:56 pm

    Ageof: I’m no accountant but the math on you hypothetical couple looks pretty good to me. You have pointed out what any accountant that has clients involved in mlm can point out.

    Truth is, 95% or more of those involved in MLM NEVER turn a profit. I’ve had this very conversation with my accountant who has 3,000 clients. I asked him, “ther than me, have you ever seen any of your clients involved in MLM make a profit?” His answer: an emphatic NO.

  76. Mike Collins permalink
    September 29, 2012 4:59 pm

    To quantify that further: if you, as an MLM business owner, make just enough to cover the cost of the product you have to purchase to participate in 99% of all MLM comp plans out there, you would be in the top 5% of income earners in all of those MLM’s.

  77. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    September 29, 2012 5:23 pm

    @Mike Collins: Thanks for looking at this…..from what you say in the above two posts, then this hypothetical couple would be doing extraordinarily well. Somehow, they’d almost need to be consistent (12-month per year, every year) Crown Life Coach Ambassadors with at least 20 long-standing teams, and who are also receiving substantial, multiple depth leader percentages off of consistent productive downliners? (See pages 5 and 6 of the compensation booklet). Could an organization with a professed 60,000 members (assuming all are productive and pulling in the required membership number) like LIFE/Team handle any more of these than, say, they have Policy Council members or “Founders”?

  78. Mike Collins permalink
    September 29, 2012 7:04 pm

    A maximum of 0.3% can qualify for a leadership bonus from the network.

    Members: 60,000 x 0.3% = 180 members that can get a leadership bonus. The rest are s.o.l. Unless of course they each get another 299 below them.

    See? Isn’t math wonderful????

  79. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    September 30, 2012 4:39 am

    Mike: LOL! I’ve always thought math was wonderful, but trying to figure out their convoluted pay scheme is a real headache because everything’s kept in the God Poohbah’s back office.

    Hey! I was listening to the financial channel last night, and I see I DID make some errors.

    Your average couple should have: 1 and one-half million dollars by retirement.

    This would push my hypothetical couple up to at least having to earn $250,000/yr, possibly more.

    The next question is: for this couple as one of their success stories, how many more would they allow–what’s the percentage? At 180 people, ff one would use 3/10ths of 1%, that would end up costing the biz $40,000,000 per annum—-I don’t think the top 5 or 6 would let this happen. This leads me right back to the following question:

    I understand what the posted percentage stats are from you (but it still seems too vague in direct application to the team comp plan booklet)—how do we find out how many actually MADE some of those upper levels in the compensation plan? Doesn’t this dang business have to file ANYTHING with an agency?? Is the whole damn thing run on each individual’s personal income tax as an independent contractor? (even, say, a policy council member or bogus “founder”?)

  80. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    September 30, 2012 4:43 am

    Mike, for clarification: I took 180 people out of the purported 60,000, and multiplied by $250,000 annual income (the new rate for the hypothetical couple)

  81. Brent Hansen permalink
    September 30, 2012 2:35 pm

    Tell me Wisdom, how many PC members does Team / Lief currently have?

  82. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    October 1, 2012 10:08 am

    Brent: I don’t know, but it would seem to me that the list is about the same as the “founders”, isn’t it? You think they have many more than that?

  83. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    October 2, 2012 4:47 pm

    @Mike Collins: hey, Mike…after getting some $$ stats from Raquel….it looks like I’d have to jump the money needed to be earned in the hypothetical sudden switch from two blue-collar stable jobs with bennies at a combined $100k/annum….up to closer to $350k per annum. It was based upon her recollection of one of her high years in the team biz and what it cost just to keep it all up. Also, I didn’t take anywhere near enough out for insurances. So this amatuer experiment (in the original scenario I gave) makes it look like that when all is said and done and before they both quit their jobs, they’d better be making at least about $350k/annum…and save fast, before the bottom drops out or the grim-contract-reapers yank your downlines.

    The problem with my attempts to quantify: it was an “overnight thing”…in reality, so much time would be spent building it up to the point of “retirement” from the regular jobs, that more liabilities would likely have been incurred all along the way to earning that combined, >$29,000 per month.

  84. Raquel Peters permalink
    October 2, 2012 6:03 pm

    age- Funny Team leaders don’t believe they need a retirement…..I mean hey if you are making a residual income why do you need a retirement…..crazy I believed this crap at one time. I used to argue with a life insurance guy….why did i need that, i had residual income. WOW was I crazy to believe their lies….

  85. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    October 3, 2012 4:21 am

    Raquel: if it makes you feel any better (said to you on basis that I am old enough to be your mother/father), I think your outlook (aside from the biz) was also by virtue of your age when you were at your height at the biz….most people their 30’s are still, I think, living each day with a sense of invincibility. Back in those days for me, I thought I could make anything work– was not the same person then that I am now in lots of ways, including financial ideas (am getting scared out retirement very rapidly here). If I would have figured out actual net worth back then when I was your age, the truth was, we were knee deep in hock between autos, mortgage, credit cards, etc.

    Remember this, too…you were at the height of that income before the market crash—heck, even if we at our current age had known what was coming, you think we’d have borrowed the money to do siding, roof, some windows, guttering, chimney and whole new kitchen, only to lose the investment before the paint was, literally, even dry on the kitchen walls? Yikes, and I was in my late 50’s when that happened.

    So, now you are suffering a double-whammy here to boot—much fewer opportunities to financially recover from the debacle of what happened to you in the Team.

  86. Donj permalink
    October 15, 2012 4:22 pm

    Mike Collins 3 videos showing are of Hugh Ross?????
    What’s up with that

  87. October 16, 2012 3:22 pm

    Don – Yes, that’s odd… Mike Collins, any comment on why the videos are not showing up properly anymore???

  88. October 16, 2012 3:25 pm

    The videos should work now, I re-entered the links for the video. The original links were part of some featured carousel list of videos; they must have been updated, which caused the original videos to disappear.

  89. Mike Collins permalink
    October 16, 2012 3:44 pm

    Sorry about that Don & Amthrax. i don’t have any idea how that happened. I sent that video to a friend and somehow it ended up in my favorites. I don’t know why it would replace my links though.

    Anyway, I removed it and they do seem to be working now. Thanks Amthrax

  90. October 17, 2012 9:45 am

    I have always assumed that the Policy Council coached their big leaders (Emerald and above) to handle finances differently than they coached the peons. I think the powers that be wanted to make sure that their leaders were afraid to speak out and go against the wrongdoing of the PC. I believe they told us lower-level members to delay our gratification until we had our debt paid off, but they wanted the big leaders to be indebted, that way they had to play along with the game.

    Our upline Emeralds were making $300K+ in the hey day of Team (at least that’s what they told us, and judging from our income as Platinums, I had no reason to think they were lying – Raquel and Melanie, maybe you can verify), Our uplines were speaking all over the U.S. and Canada, they were featured on several CDs and had won Top Gun. They should have been making plenty of money to pay off their house (and they should not have been counseled to quit their jobs until they were debt-free – that is Team’s philosophy), yet when Orrin and Co. quit paying them after the split with Q (by the way, they received no notice that the paychecks would not be coming in, and for how long), they still owed a huge amount on their house. I could never understand how that could have happened, but it makes sense to me now, in light of the bankruptcy filings of other Team members.

    Fortunately our uplines (and many of those posting on this web site as well) had the integrity to leave, rather than stick around and do Orrin’s bidding, simply to keep earning blood money. Our friends went through some pretty rough years financially, but they emerged with their honor and integrity intact.

  91. October 17, 2012 1:07 pm

    “I have always assumed that the Policy Council coached their big leaders (Emerald and above) to handle finances differently than they coached the peons. I think the powers that be wanted to make sure that their leaders were afraid to speak out and go against the wrongdoing of the PC. I believe they told us lower-level members to delay our gratification until we had our debt paid off, but they wanted the big leaders to be indebted, that way they had to play along with the game.”

    Bingo! That just about sums up the one of innumerable paradoxes that have created cognitive dissonance in the minds of this pernicious, pretend industry’s adherents. Stark mlm reality is not contradicted from the truth expressed in the above statement. Thank you Platinum Blond!

  92. Jason Smith permalink
    November 24, 2012 4:12 am

    How the heck can you spend $10,000 and claimin to go broke. It only cost less than $50 a month and you are not required to buy anything else other than build your buisness and be paid. The pay is a lot higher than any other business. You guys are running on hot air. Just go to the Life website and you see. This information that is being put out here on this site is truly useless. Goto the website and see for yourself.

  93. Mike Collins permalink
    November 24, 2012 1:45 pm

    Yes folks, go to the website and see for yourself. Then, watch the video analysis of the comp plan, there you will find the truth, something that has apparently eluded Jason.

  94. Freedomhaha permalink
    November 24, 2012 2:31 pm

    Jason- What percentage of your team is making a profit?

  95. Brent Hansen permalink
    November 24, 2012 5:10 pm

    @Jason Smith “A lot higher than any other business.” Seriously? Dare to make a wager Jason?

  96. No Team For Me permalink
    November 24, 2012 8:14 pm

    For any prospects who are checking out the Lifescam opportunity, beware of comments like those of Jason Smith (who is obviously a lifescam troll).
    We were leaders with the Team group for years and we can tell you, we were told to speak this garbage from stage about it only being a certain amount. But once you are in for awhile, the brainwashing begins as they slowly begin to peddle extra “First Night Packs”, Additional Information Packs, How To Get Started Packs, Follow-Up Packs, Depth Packs, Power Player Packs, Leadership packs, Culture Packs, Relationship Packs, major seminar tickets, monthly seminar tickets, and on and on and on.
    Add it up…it’s a heck of a lot more than the $50 a month you were led to believe. Anyone who tries to convince you it will only be $50 a month is a total scammer and they know it. They will bleed you and your group dry. do not fall for it. Once they ask for anything over the $50, you immediatly know you are now being lied to. And the lies will continue to grow from their.
    Don’t miss all that time with those you love. Don’t alienate all your friends and family. Don’t put your family in that much debt. Save youself and the lives of those you love. This is one of the most dishonest groups of people I have ever met. Ruining many more lives than did Bernie Madoff.

  97. Freedomhaha permalink
    November 24, 2012 8:22 pm

    I thought Jason was going to be the one to answer my questions. Looks like TEAM is 0-15 on answering the profit question. If a basketball player was 0 for 15 shooting I think he would be removed from the game. I wish these scam artists were removed from the business world.

  98. Raquel Peters permalink
    November 24, 2012 8:28 pm

    Can anyone think of the titles of a cd with lifestyle and income claims while in Quixtar or Monavie. How about a cd that claims or imlplies residual income. Or one with a lie. I cant handle listening to cds if anyone can help that would be great.

  99. Mike Collins permalink
    January 11, 2013 8:04 am

    Hi all, It’s been a while since I have done this but I thought some of you might like an update on who is watching the comp plan analysis video series. Views are not happening as rapidly as when it first came out but as you can see they keep trickling in. People are still wanting to understand how much this comp plan pays (or doesn’t pay)

    Total views 1669

    By country

    1. United States 1,450
    2. Canada 165
    3. Philippines 13
    4. Bahamas 8
    5. Mexico 5
    6. United Kingdom 5
    7. Sweden 5
    8. Unknown region 4
    9. France 3
    10. Malaysia 2
    11. Singapore 2
    12. Israel 1
    13. Serbia 1
    14. Australia 1
    15. Brazil 1
    16. Haiti 1
    17. India 1
    18. Turkey 1

    By state

    1. Michigan 332
    2. California 191
    3. Wisconsin 108
    4. Texas 97
    5. Illinois 81
    6. Missouri 64
    7. Idaho 53
    8. Kansas 48
    9. Ohio 46
    10. Arizona 38
    11. Utah 38
    12. Pennsylvania 35
    13. Georgia 33
    14. Indiana 28
    15. New Mexico 26
    16. Maryland 25
    17. New York 25
    18. Florida 25
    19. Colorado 24
    20. Tennessee 16
    21. Alabama 15
    22. Unknown 14
    23. Washington 10
    24. New Jersey 9
    25. DistColumbia 8
    26. Minnesota 8
    27. Mississippi 7
    28. South Carolina 7
    29. South Dakota 6
    30. Massachusetts 5
    31. Iowa 4
    32. Louisiana 4
    33. North Carolina 4
    34. Kentucky 4
    35. Connecticut 3
    36. Oklahoma 3
    37. Hawaii 2
    38. Nevada 1
    39. Delaware 1
    40. Virginia 1
    41. Nebraska 1

  100. Lifer permalink
    February 6, 2013 12:23 am

    Mike- The models in your videos fail to include the ‘bracketing bonus’ that can be taken advantage of and also the dollars that can be made through profit-sharing on sale of ‘Team tools’. I’m sure it takes time & energy to produce those videos but would it be possible to include those in the numbers? In the video you say the model is ‘best-case scenario’ but i feel some pieces are missing.

  101. Mike Collins permalink
    February 6, 2013 9:45 am

    Lifer: I believe I understand your question but just for clarity, will you please explain what you mean by “bracketing bonus”

  102. Mike Collins permalink
    February 6, 2013 10:22 am

    Lifer: I would be interested in knowing what the “bracketing bonus” is that you are referring to. I have read the Life Compensation plan multiple times and there is no mention of any “bracketing bonus”.

    Also, “profit-sharing” on the sale of “Team tools” is an interesting comment. I am aware that there used to be “profit sharing” on team tools when Team was part of Amway and Monavie but now Team is Life and Life is the sale of “tools” which there is a comp plan for.

    I.e. “LIFE is a direct selling company that provides a compensation plan to it’s Members that allows them to earn income based on the sales of LIFE products to both customers and also products that are sold through a community of other Members that you register (Downline).”

    Is it your contention that there is a separate profit sharing plan for some?

  103. Lifer permalink
    February 6, 2013 10:56 am

    I will have to look at the compensation plan to see but I’m pretty sure it is in there. Will check tonight. Basically whoever sits on top of or the first person to each new level on the bonus chart receives the ‘bracketing bonus’. I need to refer to comp plan to confirm the math but basically if you are the first one sitting on the percentage (1000 PV = 20%) then you would get paid on the percentage difference between you and immediate downline, and that percentage would be from the immediate downlines ‘team PV’.
    Ex. I have 1000 Total Team PV, immediate downline has 850. Subtract 15% from 20%=5% of downlines 850 PV = $42.50
    Add my personal 20% of $50 subscription= $10 + $42.50 = $52.50 I just broke even on subscription (Except for tax & shipping & handling which brings a $50 subscription to $59 and some change) by having only 19 people under me, only 3 of which I contacted personally.
    Profit sharing still occurs after Director level is reached on sale of Team (or Life Training)tools, which there is a big distinction between Life materials & Team tools. Life is the products (personal & leadership growth materials) which have PV attached and Team tools are the how to build & keep a community through which the Life products flow. I have heard from stage that Team tools legally cannot have PV attached since they are business specific training.
    I have not reached Director level so cannot tell you what the percentages are at what level or anything like that.
    My main concern with the YouTube videos are that they say ‘best-case scenario’, other than that you do a great job presenting facts, you are very close to a non-bias representation of the compensation plan, a few tweaks and it will be there. I understand it must be hard to present a non-bias view judging by the other articles on this site but that’s what should be done to allow people to reach their own conclusions

  104. Mike Collins permalink
    February 6, 2013 11:32 am

    Lifer: that is what I thought you meant. You are talking about the differential between the level you are paid at verses the level one of your downline team is paid at. If you are at the 30% level and your team member is at the 15% level you keep the difference between the two i.e. 15%

    This is an entirely different topic and has ABSOLUTLEY NO effect on the ratio or the percentage of people who can make money in the comp plan. The video series is designed with the entry level person in mind. It tells them what they will have to do in order to get paid.

    The video is designed to show (@ 2:00 mark) that out of a team of 300 people a maximum of 15 could ever earn enough to pay for a subscription (from the network) In other words, on a team of 300 people 95% will never earn enough from the network to pay for their subscription. That’s a guaranteed 95% failure rate.

    These comp plans are deliberately vague and confusing in the pdf to make is difficult for the new person to properly investigate exactly what they are getting themselves into.

  105. Mike Collins permalink
    February 6, 2013 11:37 am

    As far as the profit sharing goes: that is also what I thought you meant. There is another “comp plan” attached to these so called “tools” i.e. gate at functions etc. Raquel knows about this subject well. You will find that the “formula” for determining how much you are paid is closely guarded by O and company. I have never seen a PDF for this “comp plan” nor have I talked to anyone that has. Perhaps you can ask Orrin for it and forward it to me so I can dissect that as well and show how few there are that will EVER see any of that money.

  106. Mike Collins permalink
    February 6, 2013 11:49 am

    And….according to your own math you are going to need 4 more people under you at a $50 subscription in order to break even ( shipping is a business “expense”) so you are not in the black yet. Which would bring your “particular” ratio to 1 in 24.

    That means that on your team 4% of your are almost breaking even. 96% of you are failing

  107. Mike Collins permalink
    February 6, 2013 11:52 am

    The BEST CASE scenario in my video is just that…..BEST CASE. You will find as you build your team that reality is much much worse than that.

  108. February 6, 2013 11:55 am

    @Mike – As @Lifer points out, TEAM (now called LIFE Training) still has a profit-sharing component attached to the sale of its business building tools. This profit-sharing component remains separate from the LIFE compensation plan.

    In a comment on his vs – What’s the difference?, John Graff has this to say about TEAM profit sharing:

    Sorry I took so long getting back to you, Jon. Yes there are multiple income streams here. The LIFE business is the opportunity and generates more income than Team income. One starts to see Team income when they have built a business to the size of director, where you are in essence a co-owner of the team. Profits back to you per that income stream are directly proportional to the team profits that month, in conjunction to the size of your business. Hope that answers your question. Thanks.

    John Graff, June 8, 2012

    To date, we have not been able to find a document that details the exact compensation plan for TEAM/LIFE Training Directors and above.

  109. Lifer permalink
    February 6, 2013 1:35 pm

    I’m still having a hard time understanding the logic of your explanation. Statistics are misleading as are the words used to explain them. Would I be wrong in saying the 95% ‘failure rate’ assumes all the 300 signed up on the same day? Would you expect someone who signed up 6 months after someone else to make the same income? It seems your argument is against the MLM or networking marketing model in general. I understand that a ‘100% success rate’ is not possible in a networking model but does everyone have an equal opportunity to achieve success? I believe that answer is yes, no matter what the product the network is selling. I see that the profit margins involved with marketing intellectual property are much higher than any physical product (candles, juice, make-up, etc). Add to the fact that I can use the product myself, sell or pass on the product after use without a decrease in quality, basically making a one-time purchase then retain the product for life, I see a brilliant business model! Also add to the fact the way this model is set up, it allows whoever does more work to get paid more than the person who signed them up, preventing anyone from sitting on top of the ‘pyramid’.
    I choose to associate with the positive optimists but I will not deny or pretend the negative pessimist does not exist because I know there are always two sides to every story. I will continue to check in to this and other pages often to gain as much info as I can to make an un-biased decision on my and my families future. I am curious about the IAB award & Leadership Guru awards being revoked. I appreciate all of your time & energy you put into the research & that you all will continue to differentiate fact from opinion in your posts.

  110. February 6, 2013 2:03 pm

    @Lifer – To clarify, the Leadership Guru award was revoked and Chris/Orrin were disqualified. The IAB Award was never revoked, but the company that awarded it was shut down by the FTC as a scam. This should rightly cast suspicion on the legitimacy of the award in the first place.

    Question: Why does Orrin continue to promote the fact that he’s the recipient of the prestigious 2011 IAB Top Leader award, knowing that the IAB is a scam?

    There are obviously a few individuals who have made a living from MLMs. This does not hide the fact that the majority of people are not making money in these ventures.

    Continue your investigation and feel free to ask additional questions here and in other posts on this site.

  111. Mike Collins permalink
    February 6, 2013 3:45 pm

    Lifer: Before I respond to your above post I have two simple questions

    1. How long have you been in Life?

    2. Is there any legitimate reason you won’t share with me your true identity?

  112. Lifer permalink
    February 6, 2013 4:25 pm

    My name is Branden & I’ve been involved a little over a year.

  113. Mike Collins permalink
    February 6, 2013 5:35 pm

    A whole year Brandon? You seem to have a very good grasp on what the MLM industry teaches when it comes to “overcoming objections”. I mean, you seem to be a pretty seasoned networker. And for being in a whole year and only sponsoring 3 people……….Who have sponsored 16? How many months has that taken? How many of the last 12 months did you run a deficit?

    For someone who apparently is questioning the accuracy of my analysis you seem to be proving my points exactly……

  114. Lifer permalink
    February 6, 2013 5:57 pm

    Wow! That’s pretty good Mike! When the logic fails, fall back on an ad hominem attack! You’re explanation implies that out of 30 electricians, 25 are ‘failures’ because they are journeymen or apprentices. I was hoping for an educated response to the questions and facts I raised, you just lost all credibility with me because you decided to attack the person and not the points.
    Amthrax- Thank you for a proper response! I will continue to question the people I am representing & I appreciate you guys doing the research. Is there a link on this site regarding the split between Pastor Dickie & Team?

  115. Mike Collins permalink
    February 6, 2013 6:27 pm

    My repeating of facts that you stated is hardly an ad hominem attack my friend.

    And my explanation does anything but “imply that out of 30 electricians………………..”

    This logical fallacy you just presented is commonly referred to as a red herring

    I havent even gotten around to addressing the questions and so called “facts” you raise.

  116. TruthSeeker permalink
    February 6, 2013 6:52 pm

    @Lifer and @Mike, Do “journeymen” or “apprentice” electricians get paid, or do they pay the licensed electrician to help him on the job site?

    Not seeing the personal attack you say occured, but am interested to know Branden, how much have you lost in the last year? I mean, the $50 subscription is small in comparison to what it really takes to be “all in”.

    I think Mike’s question is fair, “How many of the last 12 months did you run a deficit?” Answer that question honestly will you please?

  117. Mike Collins permalink
    February 6, 2013 7:00 pm

    1. “I’m still having a hard time understanding the logic of your explanation.”

    I don’t’ know why you would but I’ll explain further

    2. “Statistics are misleading as are the words used to explain them.”

    This is correct. However, we are not discussing statistics. This is a common misconception. We are discussing mathematical certainties. For each person earning enough to pay for their autoship there will be a certain amount of additional people below them not earning enough (losing money) to cover their monthly outlay.

    Here is a simple example: Company A has a 3 and it’s free program where if you have 3 “customers” your product is free. In month 1 you would have 4 people. If the 3 customers decide they want theirs for free they each need 3. 3 x 3 = 9 then 27 then 81 then 243 then 729 etc. etc. There will always be people who aren’t getting paid in this deal.

    3.“Would I be wrong in saying the 95% ‘failure rate’ assumes all the 300 signed up on the same day?”

    Yes you would be. It doesn’t matter when they sign up. It will not change the equation or the outcome

    4. “Would you expect someone who signed up 6 months after someone else to make the same income?”

    No I would not

    5. “It seems your argument is against the MLM or networking marketing model in general.”

    On the contrary, I believe in the MLM model. Just not the type with the ridiculously top heavy comp plans like LIFE that reward a very, very few at the top at the expense of the masses at the bottom.

    6. “I understand that a ’100% success rate’ is not possible in a networking model but does everyone have an equal opportunity to achieve success?”

    In a word…..NO

    7. “I believe that answer is yes, no matter what the product the network is selling.”

    Then stick around my young friend you will eventually know what I know. Then you will either A. throw your hands up in disgust or B. join Orrin and his crew and go on to fleece people out of their hard earned dollars all while promising them a dream so elusive that only a very small fraction of 1% EVER attain it.

    8. “I see that the profit margins involved with marketing intellectual property are much higher than any physical product (candles, juice, make-up, etc). Add to the fact that I can use the product myself, sell or pass on the product after use without a decrease in quality, basically making a one-time purchase then retain the product for life, I see a brilliant business model!”

    The first sentence of this paragraph is true the rest is purely subjective and completely your opinion.

    9. “Also add to the fact the way this model is set up, it allows whoever does more work to get paid more than the person who signed them up, preventing anyone from sitting on top of the ‘pyramid’.”

    Really??? Let me know when you pass up Orrin or Chris will you? I’ll kiss your behind when you do.

    10. “I choose to associate with the positive optimists but I will not deny or pretend the negative pessimist does not exist because I know there are always two sides to every story.”

    That’s great! I do the same thing.

    10. “I will continue to check in to this and other pages often to gain as much info as I can to make an un-biased decision on my and my families future. I am curious about the IAB award & Leadership Guru awards being revoked. I appreciate all of your time & energy you put into the research”

    Read up on it. It’s an interesting and amusing story.

    11. “I appreciate all of your time & energy you put into the research & that you all will continue to “differentiate fact from opinion in your posts.”

    Hopefully you will learn to do the same Branden

    [Editor’s note: Bold quoted sections to distinguish quotes from responses]

  118. freedomhaha permalink
    February 6, 2013 8:05 pm

    Lifer- I suggest you check out the bankruptcies that have taken place in the high levels of TEAM. It was the straw that broke the camels back for me. I really hope you get out and get your mind back from this cult. Real freedom is a beautiful my friend.

  119. Mike Collins permalink
    February 6, 2013 8:40 pm

    That’s great advice Freedomhaha. The bankruptcies of even the upper echelon leaders in Team speaks volumes.

    Truthseeker: I have been in the construction industry for more than 30 years and, NO, I do not believe an electricians’ apprentice has to pay the electrician to learn. As a matter of fact, he gets paid while he earns and get raises commensurate with his time invested and experience level.

    That is a ridiculous, inapplicable analogy that is often used in MLM rhetoric. Most MLM’s, especially LIFE, have very little in common with the traditional corporate world ( unless, of course, you would like to draw an analogy between the top people this MLM and the robber barons of old)

  120. freedomhaha permalink
    February 7, 2013 5:51 am

    If these products were that great they would use the OPEN/FREE market and not have to trick people into peddling them. None of them can stand on their own without the cult surrounding them.

  121. Former Round Table permalink
    February 7, 2013 6:19 am


    You asked about Pastor Dickie and if there is a link to why he left his association with Orrin Woodward. No there is no link. Pastor Dickie is a very humble, private man, and has no desire to broadcast the very sad reason for his departure.

    Pastor’s son used to be the CEO of the Team business, and quit because he was disgusted with Orrin’s compulsive lying and manipulative “business” practices. When Orrin refused to turn from his sin, Pastor Dickie decided he had to sever his relationship with the group.

    Because Orrin could not tell the REAL reason for Pastor’s departure, he has fabricated some nasty lies about Pastor and his family, including that Pastor’s son was fired for stealing. Orrin claimed as proof of the theft that Ben Dickie, Pastor’s younger son and also a former employee, was driving a BMW. What most people don’t know is that Ben bought the used BMW several years before he started working for Orrin, and he bought it with bonuses he received from Quixtar. At the time he quit working for Orrin, Ben was making just over $40k per year. Orrin paid himself over $7 million that very same year, just from Team profit sharing. (Yes, there is a profit-sharing plan. Guess who gets all the profits?)

    This is your leader, Orrin Woodward. He will lie about and slander a godly man to further his own schemes. He will also protect the perpetrator of the most heinous of crimes, all in the name of “business.” (I will not elaborate at this time.)

    There are two kinds of people who follow Orrin Woodward: Those who haven’t yet found out the truth about Orrin, and those who do know the truth and don’t care. Which are you?

  122. Mike Collins permalink
    February 7, 2013 6:33 am

    Are you getting this Orrin? We know EXACTLY WHO you are.

  123. Lifer permalink
    February 7, 2013 8:24 am

    I am most definitely running a deficit! My main complaint comes from through the explanation in the video, someone who signed up yesterday is deemed a ‘failure’ by the 95% ‘failure rate’. I appreciate all the answers. I’m the little brother whose older brother wasn’t always truthful though so when I hear that older brother burnt his hand on the stove I feel compelled to check myself! Orrin has a book coming out late April through some large distributors that will put him, the book, & the Life business in the mainstream media & under the spotlight. I’m curious to see what the investigative journalists come up with. Yes, the bankruptcies & foreclosures are veRy concerning. I have a personal testimony through the Life business because through the information & exposure I have gotten over a 10+ year addiction to pot & haven’t had a drink since the beginning of 2013. I have also regained my love of reading and have read 30+ books in the last year. I think the info is great & the concept is great. Maybe the ball is being dropped in training the ‘IBO’s to operate like a real business. I can see why completing a profit & loss on a monthly basis wouldn’t be promoted because even those who succeed in the business operate at a loss or break-even for months/years. Like I said before, I will continue to check into this site & others to be aware of both sides of the story. Have some of the success principles learned through your years of reading & listening carried over into your current lives? What are you all doing now? Not sitting on the ’45-yr’ track I hope?

  124. freedomhaha permalink
    February 7, 2013 8:57 am

    Lifer- I respect that you are looking at both sides of this debate, and congratulate you on becoming “clean”. However, I pray that you will see the financial ruin that this business will cause.

    To all- I think that we are selling it short when we say that at least 96% of people lose in this business. It is actually MUCH greater than that. Sure, 96% of people lose at a time, but overall wouldn’t the percentage of people that lose closer to 99.9999%, or just the PC. Follow this with me for a second in hopes that I can make my point clear. Even those that are in the select 4% that can pay for their subscription still lose if they don’t stay in for a long time. In the end many RTs leave the business (like the Peters) which moves them from the 4% to the rest of us. Really, everyone but the PC fails because in order to “win” you have to stay in long term.

  125. February 7, 2013 9:13 am

    @Lifer – Adding to @Former Round Table’s response about Pastor Dickie, you can try sending him a private message on Facebook.

  126. February 7, 2013 9:46 am

    @Lifer – LIFE is not the sole provider of life-changing information. You can find information on the same topics for free at your local library. I believe in reading and listening to good information from a variety of sources… certainly not from a single source. Doing so opens you up to opportunities beyond the single opportunity that is promoted by Orrin Woodward and LIFE. There are many other ways to save and make money.

    Have an idea for a product (that you can ultimately deliver to your customers)? Look at Kickstarter.

    Want to save money? Read articles by finance bloggers such as Lazy Man and Money.

  127. Mike Collins permalink
    February 7, 2013 10:04 am

    Freedomhaha: you are absolutely correct. When I say that 96% are mathematically guarantedd to lose money if they are earning only from the network ( not retailing ) that is an absolutley best case scenario. i.e. it will never get better than that.

    In actuality the percentage of people that lose in deal like these is FAR, FAR greater. The attrition that these crummy comp plans force are constantly working against those who would build it.

    For a more in depth look at what the true numbers are in a comp plan like this you can read my analysis of the Monavie Income Disclosure Statement. This document put out by MV is extremely telling. When the first published it they did not realize the amount of information they had included in it and what it actually says about the model.

    They have now revised this document and eliminated and entire category which makes it impossible to interpret the data. Nevertheless, at the height of MV’s stardom the nambers were absolutely atrocious. I can GUARANTEE they are far worse now.

  128. TruthSeeker permalink
    February 7, 2013 11:38 am

    @Lifer-Brendan, this is the most brilliant recognition and statement you have made thus far.

    “Maybe the ball is being dropped in training the ‘IBO’s to operate like a real business. I can see why completing a profit & loss on a monthly basis wouldn’t be promoted because even those who succeed in the business operate at a loss or break-even for months/years.”

    You see, “real business” is not taught, because what you are participating in is not real business. It is simply a group of people buying over- priced information, from under-qualified teachers, that you can get for way less money, if not free from many other places. Want to learn business, subscribe to “Success” magazine, I do, and it comes with 2-3 cds each month as well.

    Keep asking the right questions, and the cognitive dissonance will dissolve, and the truth will appear. You simply cannot use statistics to rationalize mathematics, the two are infinitely unrelated.

    The question isn’t whether you can or cannot rise above the 95%. The real question is this, once you have put in enough people to be one of those who partake of profits (less than 2-3%) are you ok with the fact that the rest of your team is forced by mathematical equations to spend more than they make on a monthly basis? If you are teaching them correct principles along with the hype, smoke, and mirrors, my hat is off to you. They do deserve however to know the truth about the compensation structure they are engaged with.

    At your job, did they tell you how you would be paid, and explain what you needed to do to earn, or was it all vague from day one?

    Congrats by the way for kicking the pot and alcohol habit, keep up the good work.

  129. Former Round Table permalink
    February 7, 2013 12:55 pm


    Yes, since leaving Orrin Woodward, I am back to sitting on the “45-year track”, which means that I have a JOB. I drive in rush-hour traffic twice each day and spend many of my waking hours during the week away from my spouse. However, those hours are fixed, give or take a few, so every week I know exactly when I will be gone and when I will be home. I have my evenings and weekends free to spend with my spouse and children, as well as other family and friends.

    I also get a lovely thing called a paycheck. It comes every month, rain or shine, and I know exactly how much it is going to be every time. With that paycheck, I am able to pay for housing, transportation, and food, plus lots of extra goodies. I am also able to SAVE some of it and even INVEST.

    In the 10-12 years I was affiliated with Orrin Woodward’s scam and having reached one of the higher income levels, I had sold most of my assets and used up ALL of my savings, plus took a chunk out of my retirement account.

    In the two short years I have gone back to the dreaded “45-year” track, I have paid off all my debts, have replenished my savings three-fold, replaced twice the amount taken from my retirement account, made substantial improvements to my home, paid cash for two late model cars, taken several expensive vacations, and provided generous gifts to family members.

    I respect and admire successful business owners–in fact, I work for one. But please do not confuse anything Orrin Woodward is offering to a “business.” The “business” is Orrin’s alone. All others are just pawns in his game.

    Give me the “45-year” track anyday.

  130. Mike Collins permalink
    February 7, 2013 3:28 pm

    Former Round Table: is your boss hiring?

  131. February 7, 2013 5:01 pm

    @TruthSeeker Said,

    “The question isn’t whether you can or cannot rise above the 95%. The real question is this, once you have put in enough people to be one of those who partake of profits (less than 2-3%) are you ok with the fact that the rest of your team is forced by mathematical equations to spend more than they make on a monthly basis? ”

    That’s true nature and practice of MLM defined. Thank you.

  132. February 7, 2013 5:03 pm

    Lifer @ February 7, 2013 8:24 am


  133. Raquel Peters permalink
    February 8, 2013 4:57 am

    Trust me at Round Table you are keeping very little of the money you make if you’re the builder like we were! Check put our pay vs expenses on Fb. I believe I posted them in the comments section under my pay posts. After expenses and working much more than full-time,
    what was left wasn’t much more than a mediocre job’s wage.
    The question is are you willing to sell your soul, become Orrin’s puppet on a string and mislead people so you can make money?
    I wasnt! Id rather have the dreaded 45 yr plan…..which by the way isn’t real. I haven’t found it anywhere at the Dept of Labor! Have you? It’s just a phobia they indoctrinate you with to keep you trapped mentally and financially!
    Most jobs pay better and no one can take ypur pay away!
    I agree with Former Round Table!

  134. Raquel Peters permalink
    February 8, 2013 5:05 am

    The other way they keep you trapped is believing you have to invest for a few years. Then you work work work…..spend spend spend and once a few years are gone you have a couple people in and you are trapped. You don’t want to leave because of the investment you made but you see you’re not making it….. they get you to believe if youbhave one guy in ypu cant quit. quitters are losers etc. more phobias. They keep info from you. They slowly take away your ability to critically think. If Team was so great, why didn’t the top 8 take pay cuts to pay the bottom so they’d stay in? Most of your group will quit the first year.And you will have to keep replacing people and decieving them. Not good or Christian.

  135. Raquel Peters permalink
    February 8, 2013 5:06 am

    A J.O.B. is more honorable than a millionare on Team.

  136. ItsaPauling permalink
    February 8, 2013 7:12 am

    Basically,you are working for your round table upline. What do they pay you to hunt new people for them? Our upline did not put as many people in at the bottom as we did and they traveled and spoke for Team. We were working for them and did nothing but almost go broke doing it.Raquel, your comments, I feel, are spot-on.
    I bet the stress level is great for our former upline, right now.

  137. February 8, 2013 8:54 am


    Forgive me for thinking you were describing an organized crime Mafia family – uncanny similarities!

  138. Raquel Peters permalink
    February 8, 2013 3:40 pm

    They act like a crime family in certain ways!

  139. Raquel Peters permalink
    February 8, 2013 3:43 pm

    PC is where the money is….not RT. RT pay is a teaser! I think if you saw what the PC make you’d be discusted!
    Has anyone seen?

  140. Mike Collins permalink
    February 8, 2013 4:37 pm

    I haven’t seen Raquel

  141. CGC permalink
    February 8, 2013 10:13 pm

    I think the ideas expressed by Former Round Table and Raquel about the true cost of “making it” in this shady business was nicely stated by Henry David Thoreau about 150 years ago:

    “The price of anything is the amount of life you exchange for it.”

  142. February 9, 2013 11:28 am


  143. Ronald Schumont permalink
    February 18, 2013 1:34 pm

    I would love to hear more from “webelieved”. I am pretty sure I went to a call session in his basement when I first started.

  144. Brett permalink
    May 24, 2013 1:19 pm

    Your name “Mike Collins” comes up on Google as an astronaut. Who are you really? Your YouTube presentations are based on a pyramid structure, which LIFE’s is not a pyramid or an MLM. The company is designed to help and better peoples lives through helpful knowledge. Yes, I suppose if you go on Amazon or Ebay you may find the same info for cheaper, but just the books. there are cds from top members and reputable pastors and other well known people. And of all the info out there, what is actually helpful and what is BS. I also find it interesting that not one of these posts shows an actual picture of anyone. Which to me and others ruins your credibility. I believe most of your info is untrue and misleading and I’d be surprised to see if this actually gets posted. This is just my opinion and I’ll believe what I’ll believe and it won’t be you.

  145. MemoryLame permalink
    May 24, 2013 5:52 pm

    When they threaten you, Brett, you might not show a picture or real name either.

    Also, have you read the P&P for L.I.F.E? Did you know you just violated it and now they can take your business away any time they want? Don’t take my word for it. I’m just a faceless, nameless nobody. Read it yourself.

    While you’re at it, why don’t you read the bankruptcy documents associated with the names Guzzardo, Darkangelo, and Cullen. They might have more credibility with you.

    [Editor’s note:That would be the Hubers, not Guzzardo. Guzzardo did a strategic foreclosure on his property in Arizona, but — to our knowledge — has not filed for bankruptcy]

  146. Mike Collins permalink
    May 24, 2013 6:10 pm

    1. Brett said:

    “Your name “Mike Collins” comes up on Google as an astronaut. Who are you really?”

    Well Brett, I surely am not of the same stature of Mike Collins the astronaut but my name IS Mike Collins….I promise.

    2. “Your YouTube presentations are based on a pyramid structure, which LIFE’s is not a pyramid or an MLM.”

    LIFE certainly IS a pyramid structure and is certainly IS an MLM. Get your facts straight.

    3. “The company is designed to help and better peoples lives through helpful knowledge.”

    That is a purely subjective statement and can certainly be disputed Brett.

    4. “Yes, I suppose if you go on Amazon or Ebay you may find the same info for cheaper, but just the books.”

    I’m glad we agree on this point

    5. “there are cds from top members and reputable pastors and other well known people.”

    Ok. If there are well known people who have their cd’s on their site I guarantee you can find them cheaper elsewhere. As for “top members”: the only people buying them are the poor saps who have been suckered into this ridiculous “business opportunity”

    6. “And of all the info out there, what is actually helpful and what is BS. I also find it interesting that not one of these posts shows an actual picture of anyone. Which to me and others ruins your credibility.”

    You will base MY credibility on a picture Brett? Man! You have some low standards! If that’s all it takes to get your stamp of approval please send me your email address and I send you picture of my lovely mug!

    7. “I believe most of your info is untrue and misleading and I’d be surprised to see if this actually gets posted.”

    My info is 100% accurate and I dare Orrin Woodward to come here and dispute it. If he will publicly debate me and show me that my math is in error I will never speak of LIFE again.

    8. “This is just my opinion and I’ll believe what I’ll believe and it won’t be you.”

    You can lead a horse to water……………..

    P.S. Interesting beard Brett……personally, I think it hurts YOUR credibility. You might want

  147. Mike Collins permalink
    May 24, 2013 6:11 pm

    to re-think it….

  148. MemoryLame permalink
    May 24, 2013 7:44 pm

    Obviously, you got posted here, Brett. Now for kicks post something equally critical in the comments on Orrin’s blog and see if it gets posted. Even better, post a question there about Amthrax and whether he knows about this site and what people are saying here about him specifically.

    Then time how quickly they remove it and see if you get a public answer or an answer at all, OR if you don’t get a call from your babysitter…ahem, upline because Orrin is just “too big of a leader to handle every little question of his downline”.

  149. noteam permalink
    May 24, 2013 7:45 pm

    Brett – I think the integrity of this site has been proven over and over again. Amthrax always allows posts of opposing opinions. why is it that Orrin and his scamsters always filter their blogs and never allow the truth to be posted on theirs?

  150. Brett permalink
    May 25, 2013 9:01 am

    Wow people, I just posted an opinion out of curiosity. What I got for my curiosity? Attacks and insults. I didn’t insult any of you, I simply stated an opinion that if you have no actual pic of yourselves. What are you hiding from? MemoryLame stated that you don’t because of threats. Yet I feel I’m being threatened because I’m seeing this from both sides and forming an opinion. I have posted on Orrin’s site and I’ve had a lot of why this and other hate sites are putting effort into bad-mouthing. Why can’t you put more effort into talking about a better way. Also MemoryLame, where does it say anywhere in what I said in my earlier post that I’m involved with this LIFE thing? I’m just doing some research from both sides of the fence. Sorry if I don’t agree with negative people. I feel there are too many out here as it is. This will be my last response. I didn’t post my opinion to get into a negative pissing match. In all honesty, I could care less if you post a pic or not. As you see I’m not too concerned with being threatened, never have been. Ya’all have a great day.

  151. May 25, 2013 10:03 am

    Hey Brett, Brett, Breeeeett, Stop stop, this was starting to get interesting – as a debate. Don’t take offence if people here are too direct, nor confuse the same as being negative. Your comments were rebutted by Mike Collins point by point. Surely you can stand by what you said, and disapprove of his rebuttals with facts, can’t you? Why run?

    Beard and babysitter comments – MLMers teach facial hair means one is hiding something, that that messes up with their credibility to a prospect. Since somehow you appeared to be a member of TEAM thus, the suggestion you cut it off as TEAMers are expected to. If you are not yet a TEAM member and you become one, you will likely get that suggestion or strong hint to do so at some point.

    We know well TEAM leaders watch this website. They have specifically prohibited TEAMers from commenting on websites deemed negative. In other words their requirement is proof they are aberrant of the First Amendment to the constitution of this great nation. The consequences for commenting here, an act consistent with and pursuant to constitutionally guaranteed freedom of speech, are equally expressed – termination. That should also make you re-examine the lie they tell TEAM members that they, members, own their own business. Really since it can be terminated it follows therefore all the members have is a membership, not ownership. Further, ownership is not mentioned anywhere in TEAM Policies and Procedures document, only membership. Something very serious to think about.

  152. Mike Collins permalink
    May 25, 2013 11:15 am

    And Brett said “waaaaah waaaaah waaaaah….all the way home”

    Dude come back when you can form a coherent argument. You said absolutely nothing of substance to address any of the issues that are brought up on this site.

    You came in here swinging your club around attempting to discredit something you obviously know nothing about. As a matter of fact, your first and subsequent posts have to fall in my top five most ridiculous posts I’ve ever read on this website.

    Don’t come in here making proclamations that you are not equipped to back up, attempt to discredit solid mathematical facts and then expect not to be called out onto the carpet.

    Now if you want to runaway, novice little teamer then go ahead run away, you wouldn’t be the first and you certainly won’t be the last.

  153. May 25, 2013 11:55 am

    LOL, I have a feeling he didn’t hear me, too loud a waaaaah, oh well. Certainly he won’t be the last.

  154. Vogel permalink
    May 26, 2013 8:12 am

    Brett said: “Wow people, I just posted an opinion out of curiosity. What I got for my curiosity? Attacks and insults. I didn’t insult any of you, I simply stated an opinion that if you have no actual pic of yourselves.”

    Actually what you did was to directly impugn the credibility of the people who post here and state that the information posted here is untrue, misleading, and not to be believed. That seems to qualify as “attacks and insults”. Clearly, you fired the opening salvo.

    Brett said: “I also find it interesting that not one of these posts shows an actual picture of anyone…What are you hiding from?”

    I don’t think that you really find that interesting at all, because if you did, you’d have to be a real idiot — the concept is no more difficult to understand than why a person’s picture doesn’t magically appear when they write a letter or make a phone call. It’s the nature of the communication medium – participants on internet blog sites and discussion boards are almost always anonymous. Your motives get called into question by your insistence on pushing this silly red herring about pictures. You posted a picture of your sorry mug and that didn’t do a damn thing to help your credibility. You still come across as a brainless ape.

    Brett said: “Why can’t you put more effort into talking about a better way.”

    What are you talking about? The “better way” is simply don’t join TEAM/LIEf. It’s like asking “what’s a better way to get rich than lighting cigars with $50 bills?” – the obvious answer is to simply begin by not burning money.

    Brett said: “Sorry if I don’t agree with negative people. I feel there are too many out here as it is.”

    Brett, you are trying to defend and propagate fraud and exploitation. That makes you the ‘negative person’; in sharp contrast with all the ‘positive people’ here who are simply trying to inform and help their fellow man avoid being trapped by a pyramid scheme that is being run by by a gang of predatory con artists.

    Brett said: “This will be my last response. I didn’t post my opinion to get into a negative pissing match.”

    Of course you’re going to cut and run. You’re about as popular here as poison and you add nothing of substance, so why would you stay? Posting your opinion here was designed SOLELY to create a negative pissing match. In fact, I wish it were possible to force you stay just long enough to clean up the pool of negative piss you left behind before you threatened to cut and run like a coward (which just happens to be a standard ploy of inept MLM apologists). Just think me of me as the humble janitor sprinkling the floor with sawdust.

    Now don’t let the door hit you on the way out Brett.

  155. noteam permalink
    May 26, 2013 8:21 am

    Excellent response Vogel!

  156. Mike Collins permalink
    May 26, 2013 8:37 am

    I’ll take logic over rhetoric any day Vogel.

    What do you say Brett? Care to engage on an intelligent level minus any mud slinging or name calling? Care to show us how positive you are by discussing a few TRUE facts such as LIFE “leaders” bankruptcies or the mathematical equation of this compensation plan and where the bulk of the profits are allocated?

    We CAN play nice Brett, assuming you are in the persuit of truth. Maybe you could help us see where we err???

  157. Melanie Morgan permalink
    May 27, 2013 11:22 am

    Vogel- Love it haha.

    Brett I thought you were here to do your “research., Wouldn’t you then be interesred in the facts and willing to ask questions and discuss them? Obviously you have been made the offer.

    As you have probably noticed you are not dealing with amatuers who just fall for the rhetoric.

    Btw- You didnt have to say you are a part of LIfE, your comments and behavior are a dead give away. We can spot it a mile away so it is your credibility you ought to be concerned about. Try a more honesty approach, aand swallow your pride, you might learn somethindg, that might be a start.

    I hope you find your way….out!

  158. May 28, 2013 9:37 am

    Brett…you are just the latest of anonymous Team LIFErs to comment on this web site. Just because you provide a picture, doesn’t mean that it’s YOUR picture (or that Brett is your real name).

    You can always tell when a post is from a LIFE supporter because, without fail, they try to get Amthrax bloggers to divulge their real names. Are they possibly looking for more people to sue? After seeing the ridiculous claims of Eric Bloomdahl in his lawsuit against Raquel Peters, I have no doubt that they wouldn’t pull this on others as well. Do they really think they can bully us into giving away our identities? What level of leadership does that technique fall under?

  159. TruthSeeker permalink
    May 28, 2013 4:00 pm

    Where’s Brett?

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