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TEAM/LIFE Summer Leadership Conventions, More of the Same

July 24, 2012

This past weekend, TEAM/LIFE held its Summer Leadership Convention in Springfield, MA. This weekend, they’re headed up to Milwaukee, Wisconsin, for round two. The hyperbole on the blogs is more muted than it has been in the past, but it’s still there. Here’s how Dan Hawkins has been promoting it:

This convention is going to launch your business into hyper growth, we are going into complete focus mode on driving depth and building numbers.

I can promise, without hesitation, there will be more opportunity than ever before to fill up your notebook! Every detail will be shared on how to build a massive, secure LIFE business so you can live the life you have always wanted! Make sure you go Power Player so you can get your reserved seating up front, you will not want to miss a single detail!

Every major convention, the Policy Council members talk about how their teachings will lead everyone’s business to hyper growth. Yet, it simply has not happened for the majority of TEAM/LIFE participants. People within TEAM/LIFE are not living the life they’ve always wanted. Rather, they continue to chase the dream of a life they’ve always wanted by attending these functions.

Instead of getting actual details on how to run a business (you know, profits and losses, expense tracking, etc.), they get history lessons from unqualified people. PC Member George Guzzardo has a lengthy blog post talking the progressive loss of freedom in this country:

Let’s learn about Freedom from Orrin Woodward and the LIFE business in Milwaukee. God Bless, George Guzzardo

Great, what I always wanted to learn at a TEAM/LIFE convention, a history lesson. Let’s face it, Dan and George can’t talk about how to build a real business because they don’t know how to build a big business. They know only how to keep you in their business, how to keep you entertained enough to buy their books and CDs for another month, another quarter, another year. This is the reality that many in TEAM/LIFE don’t yet understand.

I’ll close with this recent Orrin Woodward quote:

TEAM/LIFE members are doing a good job of denying the truth about their LIFE businesses, much like they denied the truth of their MonaVie and Amway businesses in the past. Profits and loss statements don’t lie!

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105 Comments leave one →
  1. Dan permalink
    July 24, 2012 5:56 pm

    I got suckered in to one of the meetings by a friend of mine, in Milwaukee. It gave me the willies to see all the puppets in the room listening to all the crap being spewed on the stage. I got to talk to the head nut at the meeting and I plain out asked him what I needed to do to make 6000 a month. Think I got a staight answer?
    There was a black chick in the front that would stand up every 3 to 5 minutes and yell “FIRED UP”!!!!!! As loud as she could. I puked in my mouth every time she yelled. I was embarrassed for her to act that way.

  2. July 27, 2012 7:59 am

    With tonight being the opening ceremonies for both the Olympics and the TEAM/LIFE Summer Leadership convention, I really, really hope that the TEAM/LIFE speakers don’t make any comparisons between Olympic athletes and TEAM/LIFE members. Sadly, I think I’ll be proven wrong through some tweet that comes out this weekend.

  3. webelieved permalink
    July 27, 2012 3:30 pm

    Dan- how long has your friend been in? How weird did the meeting seem to you? What else stood out? I like to hear prospects impressions. Thanks for sharing.

  4. Dan permalink
    July 28, 2012 4:31 am

    He was in for over a year, and praised the materials saying it made him a better person. His family says they also use the materials. Albeit to hold open the doors and make Christmas ornaments with the cd’s. He had a whopping team of 2, was paying his auto ship, and recieving 6 dollars back from his huge team. Like I said before, the chick screaming, FIRED UP!!!!! in the front of the room made me sick.

  5. I still Believe permalink
    July 29, 2012 11:45 pm

    you don’t understand the true purpose of the LIFE business. Many of you may try to look for a quick fix, but there’s no short cuts to success. How much money do we have to invest in order to graduate college? LIFE is a long term commitment, and you wouldn’t understand the system well enough for a year or more depending on your commitment

  6. July 30, 2012 10:47 am

    @ I Still Believe,

    On the contrary, I TOTALLY understand the purpose of the TEAM/LIFE business…to scam people out of their money!!! My husband and I were on system for 8+ years and we built a moderately successful business (enough for one of us to quit working, but not both of us). We were true believers, until Orrin and Co. got greedy and stole all of it from us. At this point we are both working again, and let me point out to you that is was our college degrees that made re-employment possible, NOT our LIFE skills. Knowing how to “read” people may have helped during the interview process, but we wouldn’t have even gotten a foot in the door without the college degree. Sure, we paid more for our college education than for system, but it’s worth more – I now have a steady income, I can spend nights at home with my kids, and when my company wants me to get training, THEY pay for it!

  7. July 30, 2012 11:31 am

    For opposing viewpoints, read the glowing reviews of the conventions from TEAM/LIFE members on Orrin’s blog here. Only one mention so far of MonaVie (from Mike Bouknight).

    Looks like Orrin conducted the “sermon” on Sunday morning.

    One person called the past 8 months the true “pre-launch” of LIFE.

  8. Freedomhaha permalink
    July 30, 2012 12:55 pm

    I still believe- What percentage of people on your team are loosing money?

  9. No Team For Me permalink
    July 30, 2012 6:16 pm

    Did anyone catch the post on Jeff Graham’s business facebook page? He started a discussion on the pricing of emv. But the interesting point to me has nothing to do with emv.
    Click on the comments and scroll all the way back to the beginning. Then go down to about comment #51 by Amy Antonuuci who is obviously a Team/Lifer:

    “I’m not building, so I choose option 2. Once I build my Team business enough that I can focus on my Monavie business, I would probably choose option 1….”

    So obviously, there are a lot of people in Team who have stopped building MonaVie and are only building team/life. Why did MonaVie come down so hard on Rob Alwin & Mick Karshner and yet look the other way when Orrin does the same thing? From what I know, Rob & Mick were sure promoting MonaVie a lot more than Orrin was. And I haven’t heard near as many stories of group switching with them as I have witnessed with Orrin.

  10. webelieved permalink
    July 30, 2012 8:19 pm

    Platinum Blond- Great Points and sooo true!

  11. Not signed up yet permalink
    July 31, 2012 12:27 pm

    I still believe, I fully understand the system in that it is designed to keep you in perpetual state of dependence on your leaders and up line, and the programming to keep you buying the same re packaged products with no new actual content or value. I saw alot of scary stuff at TEAM opens, webinars and the one big Saturday event that attended.

  12. Criticalthinker permalink
    July 31, 2012 3:10 pm

    What kind of scary stuff?

  13. Not signed up yet permalink
    July 31, 2012 8:20 pm

    A lot. But just seeing a room full of people not doing any confirmation of what the leaders were telling them, being told you can make money, and then being sold on books, cds, autoship, tickets, and MV drinks. Just the clear cult like atmosphere that TEAM LIFE clearly is. The worship of Orrin and his crew. Being told its not a pyramid, then clearly drawing a pyramid right in front of you.

    TEAM lifers applauding on cue and whooping it up at the right moment then texting and emailing on their phones during what is supposed to be the most important thing the will ever do. The clear deception and manipulation.

    The one incident I had with the person that was trying to get me in after attending a few tuesdays and nt getting sucked in yet, leaned over and and told me “Do what WE tell you, and you cannot fail.” when not a minute earlier I was told “TEAM will never tell you what to do,” It was not what he said, it was how he said it that was chilling.

    There was a lot more I witnessed in my six months of trying to get worked over, and whats funny is the person trying to get me in told me about not quitting and giving up finally quit trying to get me in my telling me “I have done all I can for you, its time to get in, and get in now. And I only work with people who are serious about this opportunity”

  14. fastfruit2oo9 permalink
    August 7, 2012 1:09 pm

    During my time with TEAM, I kept wondering……
    1. Internet Biz…. – WHY would anyone EVER buy multiple tools, let alone try to impress people with a full automobile Trunk?
    * What part of “duplicatable” is the trunk full, as everyone understands Just In Time delivery (keep your in house stock to a bare minimum), let alone many in the Americas have made an order on the Internet and have had product at our home within 2 or 3 days.
    2. Information is Key to success, and IF you have success with product sales, those above will “notice” and “benefit” too… BUT if info is the key – Why not let immediate access via Pod Casts so that we can learn nearly instantaneously via the “Internet” (it is out there and lightning quick)…. BUT THE INFO IS NOT THE KEY – the CA$H for a Compact Disc is the KEY. Notice the Compact Disc was recorded at the Major or Seminar or even Open which you had already paid for a ticket to attend (double if you are actually married)…
    3. Went to a Major in Fall in Wisconsin and “Jack Welch” was to speak but turned out to be a “no show”. If I am Mr. W, I would charge all travel costs and number of days to speak. This MONEY was not refunded in any manner to myself (based on the “free” speakers who are already leading various legs of the TEAM, the majority of money spent for this event should have been the Bradley Center and Mr. W…
    4. Seminars (held on Saturday’s typically one time per month)… at least in CY2010 cost $30USD, and time PER THE PRINTED TICKET IS 5:00PM to 11:00PM… yet you are pressured to DEPART at 9:00PM if you have NOT bought a ticket to the next event. Based simply on “Cost of Entertainment per hour” of $30USD/6 hours = $5USD/hour, you have effectively ‘given away’ 1/3 of ticket price [if you actually feel compelled to ‘give away’ that last 2 hours which you had already paid for ~ typically in advance].
    5. Seminars – would NOT occur in months with the “every 4 months” Major, but that changed to increase Seminars from 8 per year to 12 per year.
    6. Majors – I predicted the set up was to have instead every 4 months, make them Quarterly, thus to keep up with the “leadership” you get instead of 3 Majors, now you get 4 Majors a year.
    7. “The System” – when took a break and stopped “the system and SOT”, the Team website did their own math and figured I must still want the “Team Website” auto charged. This price is PRICELESS as “GoDaddy” has a website per year fee of about less than $20USD per year.
    8. My top prospects were: both intercepted by a COMPETING member within the TEAM… the interceptors were known within a common social circle to “jump into anything” and thus S-C-A-R-E-D OFF one of my closest and longest friends. The other close friend was approached and drawn right in without any regard to my location within the TEAM structure.
    My top prospects (close friends I would relish working together with and having mine and their families become wealthy with a pipe line type income) said: “the presenter on the Tuesday night of Show The Plan at Southfield said ‘we can sell any product – it does NOT matter’, it is the SYSTEM that matters’, which told my friend “ALL THEY ARE SELLING IS THEIR SYSTEM!!!”,
    my second part of this key ‘team member to be’ told me something when I immediately did a one on one “STP” after my very next night and he was a bit skeptical, yet he and his wife said “we do NOT go for this stuff, but since it is you – we will listen…”
    – I never had any success to share with them (who I care greatly about)… and then about 8 months later I re-read the comments from him I documented in my notes and he had said at the time (while I was trying hard to listen to the Tm leadership…) my friend actually noted “this is NO DIFFERENT THAN ANY OTHER SYSTEM I HAVE BEEN APPROACHED WITH IN THE PAST”…
    – I have since looked on-line and found EVERY TERM used by Team / Monavie / LIEf to be ‘common lingo’…used by other organizations and or Billion Dollar MLM[s]…

  15. dan permalink
    August 7, 2012 2:04 pm

    Team/Lief is a huge rip off. I can’t believe you would bring good friends to the seminar. If I was in that bogus company I would bring enemies and disrupt the whole shabang with arguing and yelling. In fact, anyone wanna go to the one in waukesha and drink shots of Wild Turkey at the bar before we go in?

  16. dan permalink
    August 7, 2012 2:06 pm

    By the way where was welch?

  17. Freedomhaha permalink
    August 7, 2012 5:12 pm

    Dan- If I was close I would go and try to do anything to save some more people’s lives.

  18. Soon2BOut permalink
    August 18, 2012 8:20 pm

    I can’t believe TEAM is still around. This is sick.

  19. webelieve permalink
    August 18, 2012 11:36 pm

    fastfruit- somehow we missed your comments. Welcome! You are making some great points! It is all the same crap churned out originally by Amway Diamond Kingpins I believe.

  20. webelieve permalink
    August 18, 2012 11:37 pm

    Soon2bOut- Good to see you. Have you heard from your upline since you left?

  21. webelieved permalink
    August 18, 2012 11:38 pm

    Soon2b Out- Have you heard from your upline since leaving? How’s it been going?

  22. Soon2BOut permalink
    August 19, 2012 12:24 am

    No one from team talks to me anymore. Not even my “best friend” who got me started in it. I gotten engaged recently…and she hasn’t even asked about the wedding. If we were still close, she would of been my maid of honor. Oh well, I am glad to know I have real friends.

    I think they all hate me because a few people gotten out since i’ve left. Someone had asked me what the purpose of going to the majors are if you can just buy “the high lights” cd instead. And then all the talks come down on system. I just said “they are trying to still find ways to make people spend money, it’s gross.”

  23. webelieved permalink
    August 19, 2012 6:07 am

    I am really sorry about your friend. When she gets out of this mess she will have many regrets and one of them will be the way she treated you. 😦

    Unfortunately she has bought into the b.s. she was taught. So sad to see. Too bad Orrin doesn’t list how the business has destroyed many relationships.

  24. fastfruit2oo9 permalink
    August 22, 2012 3:08 pm

    Other thoughts and memories… I just recalled that on one of my CDs from 2009-10 was likely an older recording of O.W. telling his top leads they REALLY HAD TO HAVE LEGITIMATE MONEY behind the checks they were sending into the Team Office! Kinda like if these great leaders wanted to some how be LEGIT businessmen, they would give out checks that were acutally worth money when they were buying tools!

    I agree with the common approach to treatment as stated by Soon2BOut, also another’s comments I have read dealt with those (as I saw my upline) so here goes…

    1. Had NOT enjoyed a vacation in over 2 to 3 years (married with under 10 year old children). – thus the feeling of guilt they were NOT always supporting their upline.

    2. Said “no” to a social invite on a holiday so they could ‘paint their floor’.

    3. Higher upline with multiple children and a new born – actually “stopped by” to see my family on Father’s Day (drove ALONE one way nearly 3 hours) – all I can figure out on this one was an attempt to either: [a]. re-create the Claude story of the old time Ambot man who was all the way in Eastern Can. during the exact day his very son back all the way in Western Can. was graduating #1 in his class from highschool (I guess they call it “Grade 12” aye).
    [b] or – he wanted to MAKE MONEY BY LEGITIMATELY DRIVING ALL THOSE MILES TO TURN AROUND AND CLAIM THE MILAGE ON TAX RETURNS. [about 400 miles x $0.55 = $220.00 to write off].

    4. The absolute best advice I have read reguarding any MLM presentation (was someone I read on line who worked as a company lead accountant known as a ‘controller’) is to:
    – Request from your prospective up-line evidence of “all the money they are making”, by seeing their Declared Business Earnings on Tax Form Schedule A for each of the last 3 tax years.
    – As many of us on this site know, there is ZERO CHANCE any Income was made.

    5. – Some free advice to those staying in the various MLMs….
    “The System” does work(same ‘system’ used in A|TOD|T-hiding in chaos|T-M/V|T-LieF..). If you can convince six people to follow you and go to a new product and you six can create some excitement, you six should start making money as long as you are:

    [a]. The six at the top (plus one as Leader = Seven).

    [b]. You have a network below you which you can constantly move people (growth) around to assure your top six are keeping healthy income legs.

    [c]. In order to succeed, do “a” and “b” – which means you will HAVE TO LEAVE A AN EXISTING NETWORK and start a new one – THUS ONE MILLION WILL NEVER HAPPEN.

  25. webelieved permalink
    August 22, 2012 3:26 pm

    I’m not sue if you are joking about the tax thing. Let’s talk about the tax lie that is implied in Team.

    I would bet many people in Team/LIFE do not understand that if you are spending money you are losing money even if it can be used as a write off. I believed this crap too, for a while, until my accountant set me straight. Let’s say you are in the 25% tax bracket (lol) and you write off 100 dollars in expenses. You would only be saving paying in $25 dollars in taxes….which really = a $75 dollar loss! Not as great as they make it seem is it?
    Since the majority of people never make a profit, they can only call it business and write off expenses legally for 3 years. After those 3years you are required to show an income/profit to be able to claim expenses. Otherwise the IRS calls it a hobby. I wonder how many have been illegally writing off team materials for years and years?

    ***I am not an accoutant and this is what I remember my accountant telling me, but of course readers should seek their own legal/accounting advice.

  26. webelieved permalink
    August 22, 2012 3:26 pm

    Sorry for the typos

  27. musthavebeenterriblemother permalink
    August 22, 2012 3:30 pm

    fastfruit2009: superb post!

  28. musthavebeenterriblemother permalink
    August 22, 2012 3:32 pm

    webelieved: Hey, wait: fastfruit2009 didn’t mean the post faecetiously, did he?

  29. webelieved permalink
    August 22, 2012 4:22 pm

    I don’t think so.

  30. musthavebeenterriblemother permalink
    August 22, 2012 5:03 pm

    @webelieved: I went back to your last larger post. LOL!! You should have heard my kid mentioning tax write-offs, too. How FAST do they get indoctrinated…I mean…he really kept this quiet from me (likely knew ahead of time I’d react like Mommy Dearest)….and then Boom!! The pitch began with all of the “but, but” starting when I’d counter it with common sense.

  31. webelieved permalink
    August 22, 2012 5:25 pm

    They teach them answers to every question/objection they may hear right from the begining. And the explanations seem logical partially. Then ad in the group pressure/dynamics, hours of cds that many times are hand pickd for the listener etc and you have indoctrination at its finest. Really scary how they can change ones world view so fast and take away the ability to critically think. Cliches work well to dumb down thinking. Your son most likely sounds like a cd.They all say the same thing. You will be able to recognize it in commenters posts here.

  32. webelieved permalink
    August 22, 2012 5:31 pm

    They believe they are just following a system that is proven to work. They don’t know they are being branwashed. Many lower level people cannot see that the tactics they are taught are used to manipulate people. Many truly believe they are making a difference. The top however know they are lying.

  33. musthavebeenterriblemother permalink
    August 22, 2012 5:44 pm

    webelieved: well, you said it best—I’ve been on here what, about 11 days now, and just couldn’t find the one sentence to define my son: YES, HE SOUNDED LIKE A CD, like a programmed rabid Hal the Computer from 2001: A Space Odessey as soon as someone disagreed. When he first pitched me and subsequently rapidly tied into me, it did not sound like the man I knew (for the most part).

    I guarantee you that he does not see the tactics. My heart sank into a very deep sewer when I watched Hawkins’s video: I knew then why my son revered him. What I can’t believe is: that my son would listen to NO rationale from me about exercising caution–it was like he was already lost to the cult. How the hell gullible do ya gotta be to be this far gone in 2 months?? I don’t get THAT part of it!

  34. webelieved permalink
    August 22, 2012 5:58 pm

    When you read Hassan’s book you will get it. It doesn’t take long. It only took 3 weeks for me. Cults especially can recruit idealistic, good, desperate people. They seem like they have all the answers to one’s problems. Then the cds are handpicked for you based on your life situation. IF your son has things in common with Hawkins whoever showed him the plan gave him cds that Hawkins did. Also when he goes to a meeting they have already talked about him and his situation, accomplishments etc. so now they stroke his ego. They throw out the dreams, bash normal society and promise residual income. They throw in a lot of truth with a lot of withheld info. People at the meetings are taught to only talk positive about each other and lift up the leaders. So it is a fake environment not of reality. So if your son is having problems in life it will feel very good and different from the real world. Unfortunatly it is fake because away from the group people keep their original personalities and tendencies. So now they have him listening to at least 2 hours of cds of indoctrination a day. They have cds called handling objections, i would bet they have a cd bashing this site. It is all on cd so you can back up whatever thought process one needs. Sick. They already taught him there will be people that want to steal his dreams, are jealous of him, are lazy etc. Of course there is never anything wrong with the business on these cds.

  35. webelieved permalink
    August 22, 2012 6:00 pm

    It is not about being gullible but about being manipulated by a con man in my experience and studies.

  36. musthavebeenterriblemother permalink
    August 22, 2012 6:13 pm

    webelieved: you said:”So if your son is having problems in life it will feel very good and different from the real world”

    My response regarding problems: Is the Pope Catholic?
    My second response: the “feel good” for him was not unlike viewing someone who’d just injected a drug fix—almost like a Manic-Depressive hitting the absolute pinnacle of a manic episode with flights of ideas and all. Just amazing. And, in like manner with those in manic phases: no impulse control and no tolerance for others ideas.

    Major nail-hitting on the head for you to mention problems–he has it in many aspects of life at the moment–and there’s an anger disorder rooted in disdain for authority….which I suppose begs the question as to how long he’d truly last in LIFE. Once the desperation for higher income fades a little from this manic level….I think Chernobyl between him and them, in this branch of SE WI will happen rather loudly.

    Only THIS time, Mom isn’t going to listen to all of the yelling tirades as to “how so and so screwed him.” She’ll only “be there” if he at least speaks in a rational tone of voice and takes at least some responsibility for HOW he did it. He’s not 20; he’s closer to 40, so yes, I have some expectations of behavior in someone that age—one of them would be: you don’t commit verbal elder abuse anymore.

  37. webelieved permalink
    August 22, 2012 6:17 pm

    Hopefully he will break sooner rather than later. What do you think he will do if he finds out you are writing on this site. We are the devil you know. lol!

  38. webelieved permalink
    August 22, 2012 6:20 pm

    In this cult you learn to conform your behavior and thinking. If one has a problem they won’t last long. You have to be able to deal with a lot to stay in a cult long term. So if he has a weakness that is a good thing, especially if it comes out, he will be shunned.

  39. webelieved permalink
    August 22, 2012 6:21 pm

    Of course I have to say all my comments are my opinions based on my experience in Team now called life.

  40. webelieved permalink
    August 22, 2012 6:24 pm

    It is really sad he treated you so bad. I would guess most think those thoughts but dont say them. Also when my parents wouldn’t get in I felt like they didn’t love me or support me. So sad. Now of course I know that is the furthest from the truth. I so regret the time I wasted with Team that I could’ve spent enjoying my family including my parents. Of course I had absolutely no one telling the truth about Orrin back then. That is why I donate my time here. 🙂

  41. musthavebeenterriblemother permalink
    August 22, 2012 6:53 pm

    webelieved: You know, for how much I’ve ranted about the supposed stupidity of my son, I DO understand how one gets sucked in and can imagine how it feels to walk back into the light–have had it happen to me, at least financially, too. It’s noble of you to stick with this site and support those coming in here, bewildered, as if wandering in a semi-coma after being struck by a Mac truck.

    Question: you HONESTLY did not think they loved you when they refused to get involved? Did you equate support with love as being one and the same? I truly want to know here.

    I get the same sneaking suspicion about my son, but when I look back over the course of our lives since he reached puberty, I don’t know how he could possibly think such a thing! But, I realize it’s possible.

    Of course, he’s yelled it before, too, with other schemes, and literally run screaming out of the house that I am not supporting him (and I really don’t try to pooh-pooh his ideas in a high-handed manner or make him feel stupid—with LIFE, I merely recounted a few stories from AMTHRAX and asked him to look at both sides before jumping in all of the way—and POW!! BAM!! He hit me so rapid-fire, my head was spinning like Linda Blair’s in the Exorcist..

  42. musthavebeenterriblemother permalink
    August 22, 2012 7:05 pm

    webelieved: I have NO CLUE as to what he’d say if he knew I was on here–but I guarantee you this: we both have mutual friends in each others age group (this is one hell of a socially- inbred area, spanning 4 generations, i.e., I am friends with a friend’s granddaughter who is almost college age, so ) I am sure I’ll have somewhat of a hate message delivered one way or another. If he lasts until he crashes from this: I’m assuming he’d rather die in a cardboard box by the train tracks than call me and admit he was wrong. This is one stubborn offspring, known to occasionally shoot off his own previously-shot foot and spite his own previously-spitten nose just to prove a point.

    Your shunning comment: yeah, these folks operate just like the orthodox Amish, eh? But instead of God/lifestyle shuns, it’s about money performance shuns.

  43. webelieved permalink
    August 22, 2012 7:28 pm

    The more stubborn they are the harder they fall. Also he has been indoctrinated to not believe this site already. It is sad how they manipulate them.
    I did believe that because i just wanted their support. At the time I just would’ve been happy if they would have been customers and bought soap or something. They wouldn’t even do that..but of course the prices were outrageous. I couldn’t see that in my stupor. You believe if they loved you they would at least do that.

  44. webelieved permalink
    August 22, 2012 7:35 pm

    Of course they teach us vs them. The group vs the outside world. That doesn’t help. Of course now I think it is crazy i ever thought that.

  45. fastfruit2oo9 permalink
    August 23, 2012 2:44 am

    To “WeB’d” and “Musthavebeen..”, I can empathize with all your points! My dear friend that was my up-line has always been very strong. This person is very loyal to the family member that is their up-line. I feel they feer losing the relationship as they are all in their child rearing years – and like many of the “ex” discussions – they likely feel the pressure to keep working or the family will become excomunicated. My main take is either of these families have zero allowance to be with others if not “working the business”…

    My involvement (an earlier question somewhat laughed that I brought a dear friend to a Major – I only got a couple of people to: 1 Tuesday night, and 1 Monthly seminar (for about less than 90 minutes)…. MY thinking and intent:
    1. Calim was you could make an income (I take that as actual money greater than costs, thus a positive amount after all associated expenses),.. INcome overall, not a little IN which is offset by lots OUT.

    – by the way – “we b’d” you hit it perfact on the tax “advantages” which must be balanced with you income bracket – so the write off of $100 is really about $75 loss, and maybe $25 max write off, which typically saves you about 1/3 of that which is a few buck.

    2. IF what I was told was true about making money (dig a well before thirsty), then I have many close dear friends (I will call like brothers) as I cared about them and their families’ ABSOLUTE BEST INTEREST.. so if this presentation I heard was true – I wanted them in to also become weathly and self-supported!
    – I immediately thought of five key guys I wanted on each of two legs (thus ten of my best known candidates).

    3. I was encouraged by my wife to stay in and show you “actually make money” to be a testimony (I will call it a “test case”) to be able to further interest my real friends.

    * No words or methods I learned were of any value if my vital relationships were to be compromised.

    4. Beyond friends, I hand selected just a couple of family members, which all said no, and since I had many more I was NOT wanting to lead into the business with, I purposely ignored telling them (to avoid any attempt of using those I was NOT concerned with their best interest).

    5. After months of other leads and no real interest – mostly like pulling teeth to even keep in touch with prospects – I realized I was not driving people – which was never my goal and thus seemed impossible if you DO NOT DRIVE PEOPLE.

    6. I had other observations – like known leaders (of what was said ‘huge businesses’) Mickey Mousing aorund in a Saturday Seminar’s Tool Room with a new prospect – it was very bush league looking to me.

    7. other observation – the taling nice was always noticed – like “are’nt these just nice people” – sure but in reality – every one was your competitor except the couple of up-lines, and I kept getting hung up on how the leader[s] could be cordual, yet they were CROSS LINING (sounds a bit like a drug paraphanelia term..).

  46. fastfruit2oo9 permalink
    August 23, 2012 3:01 am

    Dear musthavebeenterriblemother, I have read a few more of you points, and in my previous post my intent was to let you / others now my thinking and true intent as I got into the Team. I will add more to the point of you serious concerns about how a parent is perceveid during the “team growth process”…
    As I approached my closest friends and family – I thought “this is such a good opportunity they can NOT say no”, and on the back side I was thinking after missing with the first few that IF I CAN NOT CONVINCE THOSE CLOSEST TO ME, I WILL CONVINCE NO ONE!..
    – to have someone leave you and or threaten you to get in is counter intuitive as if the thing really does NOT make sense.
    My best analogy in the final days of trying to sell the system.. etc. was to treat it as having a newspaper route with customers you simply kept suppliing via the internet with juice (M/v)… that did not bode well with my dearest brother, and NOW LOOKING BACK AFTER A MANY MONTHS – I am sure it would take less coercian and you could make real money walking door to door selling magazine subscriptions.
    It just was hard to see that as you are taught you are “in it for the long haul” and these monthly charges are tiny ($25 every 2 weeks grew to $40 every 2 weeks, then $50..) just in CDs (that I had already paid tickets for the live event.. and oh by the way “TECHNOLOGY FLASH” like the Team members born since about 1955 do’nt have smart phones these days, and can record these things instantly and pod them out to their entire legs instantaneously to learn faster than the fastest leaders who are not present at the event because they are hosting their own event on an all expenses paid trip to another state – thus your team could get a leg up on one of the top leaders at the top and really run – IF ANY OF THEIR POINTS WERE REALLY THAT GOLDEN…this would be happening at VERY LOW COSTS to the actual members on your team!

  47. musthavebeenterriblemother permalink
    August 23, 2012 7:02 am

    @fastfruit2009: you know, it was sadly “good” to hear you validate what some of my fears were as to how my son may well have taken my refusal to get involved. It all went down rather strange.

    * Preliminary: I knew he was up to something in July and going to some mysterious meetings, etc.
    1) In early August, first he asks me to spend $50 on a book, to which I say yeah, I’ll buy a book from you if that’s what you want (hubby says: what?!! 50 bucks for a book?!!)
    2) in the interim, I find this blog site and start reading about the truth of it all;
    3) Then, by the 10th, he calls me back to induct me, and I manage to get out of him that really, the $50 was for an initial membership package and that he saved me a seat at the next meeting!! (I kept my cool, though, even when feeling a bit indignant here)
    4) And that’s when it got nasty on his part—he would not tolerate even a plea from me to go read what has happened to others.

    When it was over, and after I calmed down from his tirade in a few days, I began to wonder if: he was just so very disappointed to lose his first “catch”, his own mother, and that somehow he realized this was all not going to be such an easy sell in the first place.

    Thank you for sharing your experiences.

  48. Soon2BOut permalink
    August 23, 2012 7:13 pm

    Every meeting is so…staged. When bringing a new person in, LIEfers are taught to explain to their upline who it is they’re bringing, their goals, ect ect. I felt so bad because I was told to practice saying someones name before I met them so they can feel special that I pronounced their name right.

    Also, it’s sad when someone who is still in, tries to put off such a fake image of them being a Christian, loves every body, ect ect. Even tho, they do not ‘live intentionally for excellence’. Someone who smokes pot and drinks almost every night, cheats on their partner, and all this other amazinggggg things.

    Kind of like the person that showed me the plan…my former best friend. The night before she showed me the plan, we were getting hammered and walking around like skanks, you know, what normal 20 somethings do on a weekend.

    @terriblemother, I am so sorry your son is so wrapped up in this. Atleast its not you, your husband, and every kid all in. There are families who invest so much time into this, so much money, and they all come crashing down together.

  49. musthavebeenterriblemother permalink
    August 24, 2012 3:22 am

    @Soon2BOut: thanks much for your kind concern, and you sure make a good point about a whole family not being entangled.

    You know, I’ve seen older people in the audiences on some of the meeting videos, but in all, I think it might be a tad harder to recruit someone in their 60’s like me versus 20 yr olds?

    Regarding your Christian statement: you feel they are full of hypocrisy, it looks like. This is because religion is being used as a sales tool to manipulate.

  50. musthavebeenterriblemother permalink
    August 24, 2012 4:40 am

    THE FOLLOWING QUOTES WERE WRITTEN BY GEORGE GUZZARDO ON THE TEAM ORRIN WOODWARD BLOG
    __________________________________

    FIRST QUOTE: MAY, 17, 2012 ON THE TEAM WOODWARD BLOG PAGE UNDER “MENTAL FITNESS = IDEA POWER”:

    “In fact, as a past medical provider, I would say that decisions to improve our health become successful when we master the mind power of the resolution. Until now there has been no systematic way of evaluating and targeting Mental Fitness. Your journey has ended.”

    SECOND QUOTE:

    “Vision, determination, character, and a humble dependence on God are a few tools to take along the journey with your Mental Fitness Challenge. There is nothing like taking the Mental Fitness Challenge assessment again and seeing progress.”

    THIRD QUOTE:

    “Look at your children, parents, marriage, relationships, finances and start out on a path to create the LIFE YOU ALWAYS WANTED.”

    FOURTH QUOTE:

    “There is nothing like taking the Mental Fitness Challenge assessment again and seeing progress”
    _______________________________
    Let’s get something straight here:

    1) Regarding Mental Fitness Test: Guzzardo, as a Physical Therapist (or was he an RT?), claiming he delivered medical care but yet with no extended education in psychology and psychological testing published credentials, etc., is not qualified to make this statement as a true statement. Tests HAVE been developed to evaluate mental fitness, albeit perhaps NOT in the way that Woodward non-randomly intended, e.g., putting his esoteric twist on points he’s interested in and repackaging it.

    2) They reveal in the second quote, some of the things you need on your journey: see how they actually say you need a “humble dependence on God”? This is remarkable since they are asking one to fleece people on worthless products?! They are using religion as a domestication tool…they are actually telling you up front, that this will be used to get you “in line” with them. I wonder what spiel they give to people like the Dali Lama?

    3) Here we see where my son got the “lacking vision” from claptrap that he spewed at me, too. Interestingly enough: I took the pre-challenge test and came out extremely high in character and strength in adversity categories! But, of course, my “vision” was 1.5 points lower. On the whole thing, I don’t think I scored less than 7.5 out of 10, but it was set up so screwey in results, i.e., looked like a spider web in a quadrant axis and had some codes likely only they could decipher.

    4) In the 4th quote, we see exactly where they are going to start with YOU and what they intend to domesticate: they are going to start with your children, parents, spouse, etc., then make you feel guilty that you are not visionary enough or motivated toward success enough to want better finances, and that they’ve now shown you the areas you need to improve on, if only you fork out your first month’s membership money.

    5) And finally, as one gets deeper in the psychological mileau, one can keep repeating the Mental Fitness Challenge test for another $269 a pop!

  51. musthavebeenterriblemother permalink
    August 24, 2012 4:57 am

    Fun, Short follow-up to my George Guzzardo/Mental Fitness Challenge Test: back in the mid-1980’s when I was a graduate student at Marquette University in Milwaukee— (had 1 class and the rest of my thesis to finish before graduation, but had to quit to care for an adopted mentally ill parent who by then was dying in the throes of cancer as well),— for fun, our class was given the Minnesota Multi-Phasic Inventory Test, the MMPI.

    After the results were in, the tenured PhD teaching this class, came in with a smirk and said: “it’s official: you are all psychotic and do NOT belong in graduate school.” LOL!! Then he said: “this is what you all get for trying to ‘double-psych’ this test.” We tried to “beat the system at it’s own game, and we all ended up looking psychotic.

    Makes ya wonder about Orrin Woodward’s Mental Fitness Challenge $268.95 test, doesn’t it? Is it biased? Is it really testing what it claims to test? Are there built in biases? Are you, the buyer, being set up to prove that you NEED TEAM/LIFE?

  52. musthavebeenterriblemother permalink
    August 24, 2012 5:07 am

    THE MMPI defined by something as easy as Wikipedia:

    “The Minnesota Multiphasic Personality Inventory (MMPI) is one of the most frequently used personality tests in mental health. The test is used by trained professionals to assist in identifying personality structure and psychopathology. Among its many uses, it is perhaps best known as the personality test that is used in conjunction with Secret and Top Secret security clearances required for many positions within United States federal agencies that incur an extensive responsibility for life and property, such as the Department of Defense, Central Intelligence Agency, and the Federal Aviation Administration.”
    _____________________________________

    This alone should tell you that GUZZARDO is full of garbonzo beans, eh?

  53. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    August 26, 2012 8:33 am

    for cali and webelieved: cannot answer you guys on the Titanic thread…it just does not work…does it have to do with clicking buttons in emails to come on and do it?

  54. webelieved permalink
    August 26, 2012 8:36 am

    Age of wisdom, check your email and name below the comment and make sure it is right otherwise it will go to moderation. I can reply there fine.

  55. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    August 26, 2012 8:40 am

    webelieved: yup, I only have one name and one addy– thes one I’d been using all morning—I have no clue as to why it just stopped on the Titanic thread. Are we limited to anything in a 24 hr period?

  56. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    August 26, 2012 8:52 am

    webelieved: Still cannot post on the Titanic thread–it’s like it’s dead. You asked me if I heard from him: My answer to you is: nope, we haven’t now for over 2 weeks. It’s like he died or something. It hurts so badly. Not a word since the 2nd week after he got into it headfirst and just two weeks prior, we had given them $10,000 in ll months–just being, I guess: non-visionary, lowly JOB people (according to LIFE, I suppose) trying to make their lives easier.

  57. webelieved permalink
    August 26, 2012 9:07 am

    Is it normal for him to go that long not talking to you? I feel really bad he is head over heels for this. I want you to know he believes he is doing something noble for his family etc. He doesn’t realize what he is doing to you. He will be sorry later.

  58. webelieved permalink
    August 26, 2012 9:09 am

    I worry he is reading what you are writing. That may cause some problems for you. He seems strong willed and will use your criticisms as fuel to prove you wrong (if that’s his personality).

  59. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    August 26, 2012 9:18 am

    @webelieved: well if he’s reading this stuff, then I guess he’s a hypocrite, too, for the intense screaming on the phone to an elderly, almost deaf parent wearing a special headset that (paraphrased and condensed): “all you do is like/want to look up stuff on the internet to be confrontational about!! You are stupid!! It’s just a few blogs! And you believe it? Ha ha!!!”
    (I don’t even know where he got the lookup internet thing from–I haven’t confronted him on anything about that–EVER. So he may have mis-spoken and meant it in reference to Orrin Woodward, because when he FIRST called me about this mysterious business of his, he would NOT give me Orrin’s name.) But just in case he is: use my cheese-grater toilet paper to wipe your sassy mouth, son, ’cause yo’ mama ain’t takin’ any more 🙂

  60. webelieved permalink
    August 26, 2012 1:32 pm

    Oh yeah, not giving out any info on the contact! That’s taught by the con men. Of course you cannot tell someone what you are coming over for or the name of the group because you can’t manipulate people over the phone. I cannot believe I used to do these things and believe they were just harmless sales techniques! Manipulation at its finest. I’m really surprised your son didn’t bring the poo-bah with him ( his up-line). He most likely wanted you to come to a meeting so you could meet Hawkins.
    Without using deceptive practices this so called business would NEVER work. Now, if someone calls me and isn’t up front I tell them to take a hike. If you cannot explain what you are selling in two minutes you are conning me in some way. Of course they would say I cannot show you a multi million dollar business over the phone, or I can’t give you a haircut over the phone.. that was one we were taught. Disgusting! It Makes me sick I threw out all the morals I learned from my family when I followed these idiot charlatans.

  61. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    August 26, 2012 1:41 pm

    webelieved: the funny thing is, my son actually didn’t realize, at first, when he called me from the big sunshine event, that I was going to be buying MORE than just a book for 50 bucks…in a later call, he had to admit it, after I had found AMTHRAX and confronted him with my suspicion that it was for a subscription….and then, after that, he had to ‘fess up that he had saved a seat for me at a meeting, too! Then, Mommy got torqued. Then, son got mad, because I said I was NOT paying 50 smackers for a membership which, in turn made him start screaming that I was willing to take the product but indignant that he was supposed to pay for it—yada yada. And, well, you know the rest by now. Oh, but my husband’s message to him was: if I knew how to make a million bucks quick, WHY would I tell you or try to show thousands of others?!!

  62. fastfruit2oo9 permalink
    August 29, 2012 8:08 am

    I have some other experience – at the Fall Major in 2oo9, it was “announced”… get ready – if you made P.Player over each of the next three months, you would “get” to go to O’s house in FA. and “Shark Fish”…. Does that NOT sound like a nice reward trip or reward event…
    – I do NOT know how many achieved this status (but remember if you do, so does your spouse)… so there were lots of people that made this level – I recall about 50 (x 2 if they were creative enough to dump their children for the weekend and take the spouse), thus about 100 guests to try to go fishing.
    Logistics – my up-line met their few up-lines (again, this is like March 1st in the Winter of the midwest and drove in a vehicle with 2 other couples all the way to FL for this great ONCE IN A LIFETIME ADVENTURE – MAN AGAINST NATURE….
    – You are allowed to O’s fortress on Saturday. When all these people get there – they play some volleyball because the weather was too rough to take the “fishing” yacht out – even though one of the other top legs (one of the top six) was to be CAPTAIN BAIT BOY… great job volunteering when you know there will be no actual work to do…
    How is it you can play volleyball, but the weather is toooooo rough to fish (I guess that is the def’n of FAIR WEATHER fisherman – you fish in good weather).
    Spoke with a leader after this event and I asked how was it (implied was like leaving Thursday night and driving constnatly for Saturday’s fishing after all six adults AGAIN PUT THEIR CHILDREN INTO SOMEONE ELSES CARE FOR SEVERAL DAYS, and then NOT fishing, and driving all the way home to make it in time for work (and I am sure a Super Open on Tuesday night)… the answer from a very frustrated sounding person was “it was good experience” – YEAH LIKE “What NEVER to do again”…

  63. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    August 29, 2012 8:30 am

    @fastfruit2009: yeah, I saw in Eric Scheibeler’s book where, if you did this over an Amway “excursion”, i.e., not go or say to anyone on earth that you wouldn’t go again due to expense, illness, common sense–whatever–that you got called up for “counseling” —-to “god” Zack’s chambers and read the riot act and then you were kind of put on “he’s a suspect” status…made life really miserable if you didn’t go out and get that 4th mortgage on your home to be able to attend.

  64. fastfruit2oo9 permalink
    August 29, 2012 9:33 am

    Dear “ago’o..” I did NOT know those kind of details as I never go any accolades – thus my failure was the demise to my success.

  65. webelieved permalink
    August 29, 2012 9:48 am

    Fastfruit- LOL! Gotta keep up the hype hey? That story is so funny! No fishing after killing yourself to get there. Then play volleyball? I know they were supposed to be grateful? I wonder if they had to buy their own dinner? Orrin the tight wad doesn’t take care of his guests much. He rakes millions off their work and cannot buy dinner? I have seen it. Hilarious! AND sICK AT the same time. Spend thousands to get there, drive days, and then buy your own dinner and breakfast. Oh yeah that was my experience. loL!
    But you know gotta stroke the dream machine in everyone so they keep believin. LOL!
    You think you will get some magical answer to why your killing yourself and your not going as fast as you’d like. Guess what? NO answer. Nothing. Keep doing what youre doing. Haha…..you mean neglecting my life, making money for you and my upline, while spending all my time working, spending all my money, neglecting getting a real education, while you sit on your king chair with your fake crown, telling others what to do based on the results you didn’t go out and get, when at least one of your legs you didn’t directly build, someone built them for you! Jeez..

  66. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    August 29, 2012 9:53 am

    @fastfruit2009: I think the concept is still alive and well in LIFE/team STEALTH, because I got a call one night…son begging me to babysit more hours than I already had since morning, with him parroting: “they are right–if I can’t get to a meeting when I’m supposed to”…yada yada….well, I got the idea that even though he was dog-tired, had already driven 180-200 miles that day….that something, some indoctrination was making him again, drive at least 1/3 across the state of WI. From there, I can only imagine it gets worse if you travel up the upline pipeline in responsibility, and that one had better show up to show commitment and leadership. Isn’t that where the sick Amway joke came from, i.e, “The only excuse not to attend a function is if it’s your own funeral”?

  67. fastfruit2oo9 permalink
    August 29, 2012 10:23 am

    Yeah… “we b’d” I agree as your repetitive drone HITS IT ON THE HEAD.
    – reminds me of an old band in the 60’s – got into the India thing with meditation for about a month or more, then finally there was a chance in this scenerio to go on a private trip with the head (believe it or not – the leader was known as a GURU!!!!!!!). So this ‘cool’ 60’s rock and roller goes up in a helecopter finally alone with one on one time with the GURU and he thinks “I go up there alone with the guru and I will ask him the ‘secret'”…so they go up in the air and no secret is found. When back on earth (like real life away from said GURU), the rocker and his mates decide “yeah – we have had enough OF THIS BIT – we are leaving the compound (ala Koresh anyone??)..
    and now 40 years later the eye witnesses of that specific departure account said they could see the GURU had a look of “I WILL DESTROY YOU” for leaving and thusly by that act – claiming my wonderful method/life/system/ideas are garrrrr bagggggge.

  68. webelieved permalink
    August 29, 2012 10:52 am

    I thought using the word Guru was hilarious! Especially since cults use this term for their leader. I have heard of meditation cults too. Wow…the same. Their is no secret except keep putting your money, time etc in their pocket. The secret is you have to become a con to run the con. The secret is they withhold information and tell you only the part of the story that sounds good and leave out the rest.

  69. webelieved permalink
    August 29, 2012 10:53 am

    of the story. I would bet if you talk to their kids or parents they would tell you the real truth. The money gone, time spent away from families etc. My mom used to beg me to slow down and take it easy. Of course I didn’t listen to her. She was broke. LOL! Not listening to her got me in a world of hurt for sure.

  70. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    August 29, 2012 10:56 am

    webelieved: the term guru to we 60’s things was a major buzz word; and the Beatles confirmed with their abrupt change into guruism, too; even in music, it started to get synthesized and more dreamy at times. Musta been circa 1967 or so when I really started to notice a change. Not sure when fastfruit2009 noticed it. Heck, the Beatles were touting their relationship with a GURU….right fastfruit?.

  71. webelieved permalink
    August 29, 2012 10:57 am

    You better believe they want to destroy us for telling the truth here. Too bad they can’t do a damn thing or their whole scam would be opened up. Orrin prove to us you weren’t fixing the profit sharing pay in Team and you were truly paying on the numbers and not on favoritism. Oh he doesn’t want to have to try to prove that or he will be shown for the fraud he really is! He is such a scumbag! All the families lives that he has impacted in a terrible way, lying to them and stealing from them their time, money, retirement funds etc.

  72. webelieved permalink
    August 29, 2012 11:00 am

    I met a bunch of ex cult members and they called their leader GURU. It sounds like such a ridiculous word to me, yet I hear in India they use that word all the time for meditation teachers. All I know is if I hear the word I run the other way. LoL! Same with the word mentor, not that mentors in the real world are bad, just the way they use the term in team, disturbingly gives the person power over others.

  73. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    August 29, 2012 11:02 am

    webelieved: here ya go! I had to laugh when it came up right away:

    http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5gnSzhJeCpsf3gdZ_ZxZVpHZFa9EQ

  74. fastfruit2oo9 permalink
    August 29, 2012 12:02 pm

    “Age of w” – you hit the story I referred – I only know this through reading and listening to rock (I was not around at that time..).
    – about the humor of the FL. trip –
    I had family that were high up in about 2oo2 with “let’s meet at a restaurant and get going” type events with O and CB [they would actually meet at a Little Ceasars].
    – this family member when we indirectly approached them a few years ago warned me exclusively – as he climbed (to even go to a Little Ceasars with the BIG GUYS APPEARING) he found……. MUCH MUCH MUCH MUCH MUCH MUCH MUCH MUCH MUCH MUCH TO HIS DISMAY that “the key” (ala J.Ono Lennon) was ONLY SELLING BOOKS and MATERIALs and he saw ZERO WAY TO ACTUALLY MAKE MORE income by the way they were telling|teaching|training|grandizing to|claiming|berading|begging|e-dif-fi-ca-tion-izing the newbies (first time people being approached to get in and start making prophets).

  75. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    August 29, 2012 12:44 pm

    @fastfruit: I’m not surprised the whole guru-follower thing exploded and spread, actually, because some of it stemmed out of Westerners, too (before “going East Indian” got popular) like Ayn Rand (on certain subjects) in the 50’s and 50’s beatniks and the then new-age folksi-ism. And then, all ya had to do was plop our age group smack in Viet Nam. When the Beatles adopted such postures, then it almost seemed main-stream. Not that I am against meditation, but I often wonder why, by the late 1970s and into the early 1980s, I had to study Transcendental Meditation in, gulp, a Jesuit University (I was a “late bloomer”, going to college when my son was in gradeschool).It’s probably even older than I can recall during my lifetime, too.

    Okay, so to be on point here: not really surprised in MLMs that they’d use facets of guruism….hey, how else ya gonna sell a million books like the Maharishi did, eh? For decades on end, we’ve reviled and been fascinated by “guru” figures….but Ringo Starr wanting to bug out because he has to eat veggies is mild compared to what the LIFE guru is doing, eh?

  76. fastfruit2oo9 permalink
    August 29, 2012 1:21 pm

    Dear ageofwisdom51…. I will be brief but maybe slightly off topic – but I truly care for any one’s best interest (even my worst enemy)…
    – 1. I referred to GURU since a term we have seen over and over on this site, coined by the T/TOD/T-Mv leaders… I am only drawing a comparison that sounds oddly familier – I care not about the curiosity in mainstream.. or the source..etc.
    -2. Sad, with my studies of J.Ono.L – he ‘preached’ all this love and peace – yet look up youtube and see his adult son around 1982-83 and he had a very different experience – line NONE with this apparent lover of love and peace… – so in reality – a claim by a great rock group, but surely benefitted by great marketing.
    – 3. I do believe in real wisdom that transcends time – “the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow”. I hope to peacefully express that to you as I have no search for more truth as I believe per this quote – TRUTH is a known.

    Thanks for listening!

  77. Former Round Table permalink
    August 29, 2012 5:26 pm

    Hey all, the leadership “guru” title comes from Orrin himself. He is truly a legend in his own mind. But he would point out the thousands of “followers” as proof of his guru-ness. Unfortunately for most of those thousands, they are following a liar and master-manipulator.

    Hey Orrin, a REAL leader does not have to lie to his “followers”. A REAL leader does not have to parade fake recognition across a stage to pretend to his followers that his system works. If Orrin’s leadership training system, which has been developed over the past 15+ years, is so wonderful, then why the need for fake recognition?

    Guru — schmuru. He is nothing more than an over-paid snake oil salesman.

  78. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    August 29, 2012 7:13 pm

    @Former Round Table: I had to chuckle at your “guru schmuru” post (thank you for it, too, because I was so confused by some prior posting), because I, too, see Orrin Woodward calling himself a guru all over the internet–it’s hilarious–especially where he did his own biography in the third person, etc. Guru: that’s the main adjective associated with him that he gives himself on all of Google-land, like it’s programmed into titles so page after search page comes up with “Orrin Woodward, Guru” ….it’s unnerving, to say the least. You think part of the hype for this “mind-hammering guruism of motivation land” going on now is to sort of sweep his prior MLMs under the rug, i.e., now that the focus is LIFE and motivational engagements (although I don’ t have a CLUE as to possibly HOW in a bazillion dollars worth of years, the end result of LIFE is going to give him more credibility as a circuit speaker)

  79. webelieved permalink
    August 29, 2012 7:39 pm

    Wisdom- some ridiculous, noncredible website calls him a top guru, bahhaaa! So he has been bragging about it for a year. Amthrax debunked the credibility of the site and yet his followers all repeat he is top leadership guru! Hilarious! One thing no one mentions is the killing he and other PC like Brady must be making writing their books and selling them to the masses in the system. Can you say captive audience, since they decide what books come down for the book of the month.

  80. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    August 29, 2012 8:32 pm

    @webelieved: yeah, it ended up to be Carmazzi’s site where he was calling himself one, too, and he has so many IP addresses, he can manipulate search engines—I think Woody etal must have learned a lot from him—…it’s a thread on Amthrax here called….The Truth Behind LeadershipGurus.net, IAB, Orrin Woodward and Chris Brady/

  81. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    August 29, 2012 8:37 pm

    Hey, webelieved: here ya go: for 2012….Woodward came in 6th and Carmazzi came in 9th; Brady came in 11th —I’ve seen that same blurb over and over and over on Woodward’s one paragraph bio—I’ll eat my shorts if he didn’t write it.

    http://leadershipgurus.net/leadershipgurus30.php

  82. Can'tSay permalink
    September 13, 2012 9:47 am

    Is anyone on here still able to access the records on TEAM/MONAVIE/LIFE’S website to see where people stand in ranking? I have questions…

  83. webelieved permalink
    September 13, 2012 1:19 pm

    Cantsay-Maybe you can just ask the questions. Some may not be able to answer directly if they have access. If we don’t have access, I am guessing many of us have connections and might be able to find the answers for you from other’s access.

  84. sarah brostowitz permalink
    February 26, 2013 9:08 pm

    My husband started this LIFE “business” in September of 2012 and has spent thousands of dollars. His first $56 check in Feb 2013… LOL. Since September he no longer attends church,spends money we don’t have and has left a wife and kids behind for a new LIFE. Finance, Family, Faith… What a joke. Freedom is coming his way… Half of the $56 will be mine!

  85. noteam permalink
    February 27, 2013 2:21 am

    Sarah – So sorry to hear what this group has done to your marraige. Unfortunately, this tends to be fairly common with Team/Life. The business becomes all-consuming and everything in life becomes secondary to Team/Life.

  86. Raquel Peters permalink
    February 27, 2013 5:31 am

    Sarah so sorry. You can comtact me on Fb if you like to chat privately.

  87. Raquel Peters permalink
    February 27, 2013 5:39 am

    or better Amthrax can send you my email.

  88. Raquel Peters permalink
    February 27, 2013 5:41 am

    Sarah- this is very common. I may be able to get you in contact with others who feel the same. I will have to get their permission of course.

  89. Freedomhaha permalink
    February 27, 2013 5:46 am

    sarah- I will be praying for your family.

  90. Raquel Peters permalink
    February 27, 2013 5:50 am

    Here is a good article with grwat info in commwnts section to a mom whose daughter is trapped.
    https://amthrax.wordpress.com/2013/02/01/reader-story-jackie-freys-teamlife-statement/

  91. February 27, 2013 10:16 am

    @Sarah – Have you approached your husband with an itemized lists of business income and expenses? What has he said about the lack of profitability with his business?

  92. Melanie Morgan permalink
    February 27, 2013 12:30 pm

    Sarah~

    6 months of spending thousands of dollars with only a $56 return for a “sales” company is a disgrace and even more of a disgrace, they will blame your husband when he fails, but the odds of your husband ever making a profit or supporting his family with that scam would even be a stretch, and if he is one of the very few and ever does recoup all his loses and then turns a small profit…. hundreds if not thousands of others will have to lose like he does.

    Here is a suggestion and due to the sounds of the lack of profit, ( which is the mass MAJORITY who lose) and the seriousness you are facing in your marriage, you may want to send in a complaint to your state AG and the FTC, you can find a link at the top right of this page. Don’t let the business destroy your marriage.

    I 100% agree with the others this is way too common and their is plenty of evidence on this site with similar stories. This taxes and divides, way too many families, creates continual massive financial loses to the masses, consumers need to be protected from the serious damages people endure from this scam.

    If you have legitimate “business” questions or questions they do not like to answer about facts you bring up (which is most of them because they are critical) they will distract, divert, deny, and avoid them or use some stop thinking cliche on you.

    Doesn’t matter how nice or sincere you are, they don’t like to be questioned!

    Just know you are not alone and we are here for your support, any questions or anything else we can do to help you, let us know. We will be praying. Good luck.

  93. sarahbrostowitz permalink
    March 1, 2013 5:17 pm

    Thanks for all the kind words and prayers. I have asked my husband just how much he plans on spending on this great venture. The answer I got was ” just as much as it takes”. So far we are up to$450 this month alone, just that i know of. He is buying books and tapes for other people to suck them in. Is this how it is supposed to work? What the heck… What ever happened to just getting a job. This week he has taken me off the checkbook and on-line banking so I can’t see how much he is spending. I am scared to death.

  94. Brent Hansen permalink
    March 2, 2013 10:19 am

    Sarah, not sure of your situation, but I would seriously seek help as quickly as possible. Go talk to your husband’s parents, your pastor, what ever you need to do, you are in a no-win situation, the sooner you get help, the better off you will be. I wasted $250,000 pursuing very similar models over a 12 year span, almost destroying my family. I am ashamed to admit that I too was “all in” and took it all hook, line and sinker. This business has the possibility of not only destroying your finances, but your marriage as well. If my wife or I can do anything to help you, please feel free to contact us through email, I hate to see anyone suffer as we have.

    hansen.brent@rocketmail.com

  95. Mike Collins permalink
    March 2, 2013 10:38 am

    Sarah and Amthrax: I hope you don’t mind that I copied your comments and posted them over on my Youtube channel exposingmlm with direction for people to google amthrax if they wanted to read the comments themselves. I would post a link Amthrax but Youtube will not let me do that.

    http://www.youtube.com/exposingmlm

    [Editor’s note: add link to channel]

  96. March 2, 2013 10:47 am

    Mike Collins

    Post the link thus, www dot amthrax dot wordpress dot com/2012/07/24/teamlife-summer-leadership-conventions-more-of-the-same/#comment-24399

    or exclude http, insert spaces for the dots

  97. sarahbrostowitz permalink
    March 2, 2013 12:40 pm

    Brent – Thank you. I have had a consultation with a divorce attorney and found it very interesting that I was the fourth person, in a few short months, seeking a divorse where LIFE was involved. We live in a small rural area so this is really a serious problem. Financial infidelity… It hurts.

    My eyes have been opened and rest assured, I won’t be the blind mouse in a field of cats.

  98. Mike Collins permalink
    March 2, 2013 1:24 pm

    Ex ambot: thanks. I tried a couple of different configurations and got the same result. If you figure out how to do it feel free to post the link in the comment section if you like.

  99. Raquel Peters permalink
    March 2, 2013 3:35 pm

    Sarah in my opinion your husband ia being influenced by thought reform.
    Did ypu read the Life Primer at the top?
    4 divorces over LIFE? That’s sad!

  100. Melanie Morgan permalink
    March 2, 2013 7:13 pm

    Mike Colllins~

    What a superb job you have done, my friend!.. Excellent, I say!!, Those video’s on youtube of the LIFE/Team rip off scheme! So thanks for the link, you are an invaluable asset and resource and believe the “ripple effect” will no doubt reach the uninformed and many! P-)

    I will be putting this to use in the most effective way possible! THANK YOU, Thank YOU, Thank YOU!!!! 😀

    I so appreciate your clear understanding, and especially all your time and effort you put into getting these facts out and holy smokes.. if that isn’t a smoking gun..not sure what is…The grim facts of reality on the “best case scenario= perfect business structure, will never happen!”—>The LIFE/TEAM> Epic FAIL> Comp-Plan..Clearly sets the masses up for financially doom!

    Seems to me on what I have seen about the Fortune High Tech Marketing and other MLM’s the FTC have shut down in the very recent past!! I am certain has caused some serious fear. LIFE/TEAM are one in the same based on what I have followed and have see what has been said by the FTC in reference to FHTM and your video’s give the facts! :-O

    I had not seen those comments of the lifers arguing about the math, LOL… WOW, unbelievable! (:-& …. Clearly Orrin knows he is running his own scam and wonder if this is why it has been stated they are “changing the bonus” chart, hahaha, could you and the FTC crack down been the inspiration? Hmm…. the lifers cannot argue this pyramid scheme and it is laughable or sad how MANY times you had to repeat yourself about the mathematical facts..but they continue to argue anyway?

    Time for some to pull their head out of the mud and give their head a shake!

    Keep up the great work…you are what I would consider ‘hero’ material!

  101. Melanie Morgan permalink
    March 2, 2013 7:38 pm

    Now the real devastation, most will recover EVENTUALLY, it make take years from the financial rape the LIFE?TEAM comp plan inflicts but the lasting and more scaring devastion and “ripple-effect” and damage that will last a life time.. is clearly evident in “SARABROTSOWITZ” story above!!!!

    Sara~

    I am so sorry, that is just devastating…and sorry for the wall of destruction these scam artists… LIFE/TEAM evil Scheme has bestowed upon your marriage! I am speechless, but would not go out without a fight.

    It is stories like yours and what you have said that strike me to my core and the reason for my being here!

    You stated: “I have had a consultation with a divorce attorney and found it very interesting that I was the fourth person, in a few short months, seeking a divorse (divorce) where LIFE was involved.”

    ENOUGH!!! PLEASE..file a complaint and explain in that complaint everything you have endured and have shared on here, your losses and anything you have that will show what this is doing to your family! You have the potential to prevent others just like you from getting divorced. And if you know those people in your area I am sure you could all be of great support of each other.

    4 Families destroyed in a few short months in your small rural area?!!! ;( This is an outrage!

    IF you know these others who have or are going through the divorce because of LIFE, speak to them and have them send in a complaint to the FTC, & AG then go together to your local newspaper and see if you can get someone to hear your story!

    I too extend my help in anyway as those on here have extended to you also, these guys on here are incredible people.

    If and only if you would like to or feel comfortable and want to speak privately, you can send me a private FB message and I will do anything I can to help you and be of support.

    My prayers are with you.

  102. noteam permalink
    March 2, 2013 8:52 pm

    Sara – Unfortunately, the $450 in the first month is just the tip of the iceberg. Thus the reason he took you off the account. If someone is ‘fully in’ and purchases all the tools promoted (Top 50, each of the packs – 1st night packs, additional info packs, culture packs, power player packs, depth packs, relationship packs, showing the plan packs, etc and has the recommended extra sets for the new leaders they are planning on sponsoring), one could easily spend $5-10,000 in a very short period of time.

  103. sarahbrostowitz permalink
    March 2, 2013 9:04 pm

    Anyone- I would like to put a “scam alert” in our local newspapers. Does anyone have the perfect article for me to use? Not too complicated, just simple and to the point.

    Melanie – I’ll file a complaint. Thank you.

  104. noteam permalink
    March 3, 2013 6:45 am

    Sarah – that ‘scam alert’ in the local newspapers is a GREAT idea. We need to all look into doing that.

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