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Warning Signs For Your Friend/Family Member is Under Undue Influence

August 27, 2012

On the Freedom of Mind website, there’s an evaluation checklist that one can use to determine if a friend of family member has gotten themselves involved in a cult-like situation. As Freedom of Mind’s Steven Hassan points out, this could happen in a variety of contexts: “religious, political, therapy, education, business.” This blog is focused on MLMs, and the checklist definitely applies here.

New commenter @AgeOfWisdom51 (formerly @MustHaveBeenTerribleMother), recently posted her thoughts after observing the changes in her son following his involvement with TEAM/LIFE. Does this checklist look familiar to you?

@webelieved, @Calie etal, and to the others who helped us to get to good sources of information to help us understand what happened to us this summer as family members of a loved one being drawn into team/LIFE–this is what we have found, and the data collected just is what it is and as long as it is–can’t be helped:

Next, it goes without saying: many thanks to Steve Hassan’s ‘Freedom of Mind Resource Center’–this site has begun to help us to understand what has happened to our loved one being sucked into the vortex of Team/LIFE, even as a newbie:

The evaluation checklist to see if our loved one is under ‘UNDUE INFLUENCE’ (to not get hung up on the word ‘cult’ as Hassan suggests).

Here are some of the EARLY warning signs—we’ve picked out those that apply specifically to what we have seen in our own family member in just the early phases of involvement in team/LIFE, i.e., the “motivational indoctrination”, to one degree or another (some were subtle changes):

Hassan uses 4 major categories of: Change in Prior Commitments; Financial; Radical Personality Change and Health. From those we saw these points to be true:

  1. change in prior commitments: yes
  2. change in goals: yes
  3. change in relationships: yes
  4. financial repeated surrendering of money for group sponsored events: yes
  5. change in physical appearance: yes
  6. personality change: secretive, evasive, defensive behavior: yes
  7. personality change: from analytical to magical thinking: yes
  8. personality change: move toward a proselytizing behavior: yes
  9. personality change: judgmental attitude toward family members: yes
  10. personality change: change in level of honesty: yes
  11. personal habits: change from tardy to punctual or vice versa if organization made demands: yes
  12. personal habits: change from irresponsible to responsible and vice versa: yes
  13. communication style: defensiveness and evasiveness: yes
  14. communication style: use of canned speech and buzzwords: yes
  15. relationships: family preached to as though they need to be saved: yes
  16. relationships: more time spent with group: yes
  17. career: radical changes in goals: yes
  18. career: abruptly ends career: yes (wants to soon)
  19. health: sleep deprivation: yes

We don’t know what the future holds–we are now in a ‘holding pattern’ position to see if our loved one will fall deeper into the vortex.

As newbies to this nightmare, we can only suggest this: before you do much of anything else:

1) Read the links offered on Amthrax. Learn the money-making methods and odds of success and read the stories of those affected;

2) read Eric Scheibeler’s online book: Merchants of Deception (about his 10 year meteoric rise and subsequent crash in Dexter Yager’s version of Amway (and note: you may find reference to a court case out there where Eric may have been pressured in a suit to back off on one or two of his claims–just remember, he’s not the only one his journey happened to, i.e., lawsuits popped up around the country.).

Keep in mind: If you think the hidden side (the motivational tool side of a business being the actual money-making scheme instead of selling renewable product to an end consumer side) , the Dexter Yager–the U.S. mastermind creator “motivational tools’ in Amway–has nothing to do with team/LIFE, you’d be very wrong. Team/LIFE’s founding principles are lock/stock/barrel, Dexter Yager’s. The current iteration of LIFE is only a new spin-off of what has existed for decades on end, albeit quite refined.

3) Then, after you recover from the shock of Eric Scheibeler’s journey, look at the education/training/recovery sites he recommends, such as Hassan’s.

Will you be guaranteed solace? No. But you will be forearmed and your preconceived notions about everybody and everything associated with this entity known as LIFE (or team/LIFE) will be in the trash can.

However, you will be building the strength and knowledge of how to counter the fallout that made you an indirect victim of ‘undue influence’ in the motivation explosion which is covering nothing but a scheme to sell motivational materials and build wealth for the almost-negligible few near the top.

What other warning signs of undue influences can you list? Leave your thoughts in the comments discussion below.

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234 Comments leave one →
  1. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    August 27, 2012 3:41 pm

    @Amthrax: thanks for doing this. To others: be aware that Steve Hassan’s site has more checklist warnings–we just picked out the ones displayed very early by our family member.

  2. webelieved permalink
    August 27, 2012 5:03 pm

    This is so true! I have been studying undue influence, destructive groups that use thought reform and believe I was under it for years while involved with Orrin Woodward’s Team now callled Life. I lost years of my life working for this group, believing I was doing something great for others and society. Only to realize later I was taught to decieve others and give up myself. I missed YEARS with my kids and loved ones because of this deceptive group.

  3. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    August 27, 2012 5:04 pm

    @webelieved–yeah, it’s nice to be in an, um, safe zone? LOL! Now we can cult away or whatever….here’s where I discovered we were dealing with something odd:

    From a parental perspective, here’s how the “undue influence” began in a moment of time we’ll never forget: The first inkiing we had that ‘something was up’ was a change in attitude and personal habit–sounds simple but it would later be very telling–our loved one had a sudden over-concern that his work vehicle did not look good enough (had some rust on edges, etc.) , saying things like having an “image to project,” (doing what he was doing? didn’t make sense at that point) yet we were given side-reasons for needing something different, too (we agreed with these side reasons, especially safety factors, but we were not really moved to help financially until we saw his unhappiness and agitation increase dramatically in a short period of time, and no, he did not ask for money).

    SO: Suddenly, appearances became important to someone nearing middle age himself, where he had never really been like that before, especially in what he was doing with the work vehicle.

    When I read Merchants of Deception (regarding the author’s near-destruction over Dex Yager’s developed motivation methodologies), and when I realized that’s where Woodward and Brady came out of originally, too, it was like a slap upside the head), and when I watched videos by Team/Lifers and saw how people were dressed, the buzz words, the ideologies, etc…..was all the reason I could pinpoint the exact moment when the undue influence started. It was just the first whiff of smoke before the oxygen of motivational indoctrination really came knocking.

  4. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    August 27, 2012 5:08 pm

    webelieved: yeah, hey, tell your more detailed story—you’ve probably done it a hundred times, but why not one more? And who cares how long it is! I would leave to hear this….

  5. webelieved permalink
    August 27, 2012 5:08 pm

    I was in a hundred and ten percent. Going power player over and over for years! Working 6 nights a week. Gowne all the time. Gone mentally when I was home. Listening to cds, reading four or five books from the system a month. I got to the top and found I had to conform my personality and behavior even more! How did they do it? A little at a time. We weren’t told everything we would have to do up front, because in Brady’s words that would blow us out. We wanted a better life for our family. We wanted a better life for our friends. We believed in goodness. We believed what they told us.

  6. webelieved permalink
    August 27, 2012 5:15 pm

    And found out later, we were decieved, by very smart men. Found out we were led to change our beliefs, our personality, our morals etc. When we were up on the ladder we were asked to do unethical things by the top leaders and refused, and boy did it come crumbling down fast. That is when we realized we became followers through their thought reform system, and not leaders like they claimed. We were not allowed to think for ourselves or make our own decisions without our upline. We couldn’t run what was called our own business the way we wanted, with integrity. We found out quick it wasn’t our business, we owned nothing and had no rights to the work we did. How could we not see all of this? Because of deception and thought reform/undue influence.

  7. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    August 27, 2012 7:17 pm

    Are you talking about Mon Avie? Your story sure sounds like the same tactics used during Eric’s saga of being in Amway. What were they asking people to do as they got higher up the list in teh organization when you were in it?

  8. webelieved permalink
    August 27, 2012 7:47 pm

    Wisdom- I was on Team during their stint in Quixtar/Amway and then Monavie.

  9. Soon2BOut permalink
    August 27, 2012 8:49 pm

    age, where do you live? like, what state? if you don’t mind asking.

  10. August 28, 2012 3:58 am

    Wisdom – best of luck to your family – when I was a newbie I would have answered yes to a lot of those same questions, but hopefully someone or something, either inside or outside of TEAM/LIFE, will shake your son out of his delirium.

  11. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    August 28, 2012 4:46 am

    @webelieved: wow, you gotta tell me more about the transition from Quixtar to MonAvie. Can you be more specific about the time period where you started to get disillusioned ?

    @Katie: can you think of any other way you think you’d changed in the first 3 months of being in? When I look back now, I see that our loving, best of intentions in helping he and his family out actually set him up to be in a better position to get involved here (freed up some cash;etc) The bad part is: his own boss/owner from his job got him involved! WHO can talk him out of this? It’s bizarre—like he said: he found the answers to the Universe with these people, just listening to them talk, reading their books and listening to their CDs for a few weeks.

    @Soon2BOut: SE Wisconsin; my son has already been to Hawkins’s new mansion—this happened a few weeks after the big meeting at the Bradley Center. I live north of Milw. My son would be in: team STEALTH, or so it looks to be called.

  12. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    August 28, 2012 5:11 am

    Continuation of how we got the 19 points chosen from the initial thread post: what we saw 2nd, after the initial uncharacteristic concern over appearances or as loved one put it: “an image to project” (I thought this was wierd! BUT, it makes sense now because his everyday boss, you know, the one who gave him a hated/loser JOB, is also the man who got him into LIFE–go figure).

    I began seeing him actually WATCH me…every word I said, every move I made, and many times he just seemed to “zone out” as if something was on his mind or he was so tired he was a walking zombie. AND I saw some complaints about the JOB start. (you know: what the mind-bend buffoons refer to as Just Over Broke. (At this point, I don’t realize what he’s into yet, BUT I told the spouse: watch and see, he’s going to want to quit this JOB now after we got the vehicle for him–something was ‘in the air’ but his usually-astute Mommy still didn’t realize he was slipping into a black hole)

    Soon, I see him getting more and more critical of those around him, but it seemed, especially women. (Well, sure! The mind-bend buffoons want submissive spouses!)

    Mixed in with all of these oddities, I see him practicing very controlled temper (what a hoot!!), i.e., stuff like “yesssssss, mother” in a real controlled tone, and to me, in a condescending manner at times, but not all of the time–sometimes it was really sincere and nice and well, just plain refreshing (example: he may well have said this condescendingly if I even said something as innocent as: ‘oh, hey, don’t forget to take that blanket along home’ or some such thing in picking up my grandchild from me after work).

    So, things are getting closer now, to the week of the final rift….

  13. webelieved permalink
    August 28, 2012 5:34 am

    Wisdom- I am sorry your son is in so deep. It will be hard for him to see the light since his boss got him in and he is already in the hooks of Hawkins. Does your son have influence with a lot of people? So you know as soon as he burns through his names list and has no one else to contact, they won’t spend as much time with him. Then he will however be involved in group things. I think the best thing you can do is warn your family and friends that your son will be contacting them about this cult deceptive destructive group. That way they know its coming when he calls them and they will say no to his invite. Your son will be really ticked at you I am sure. That is up to you. I would just hate to see more of your friends and family taken advantage of.
    I was wondering how your relationship with your son was before the group? Most people get involved because they need something in their life. It sounds like your son is in need financially so LIFE’s propaganda would be very enticing for him.

  14. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    August 28, 2012 6:17 am

    Note to all: just remember, y’all can jump in with your own stories at any time—I do NOT want to monopolize or make it look to newbies dropping in that this thread isn’t for them, too, i.e., just a few talking to each other as if we’re emailing back and forth. ANY constructive commentary is welcome that’s on anyone’s mine. (@webelieved: in a later post, I’ll tell you about the relationship with son, etc.)

    As for my own posts on the 19 points, am just breaking them up into a pieced story that’s as long as Mesha’s on her thread. My point here is: I want to get to the point where some of you who saw all of my posts as ‘MustHaveBeenTerribleMother’, realize what an angry mental state I had sunk to, where I was mentally when I began to look at Woodward’s etals, philosophical and religiously twisted underpinnings that cloak the money scheme. A lot of my ranting and surmising would have been unnecessary if ONLY I had read ‘Merchants of Deception’ FIRST.

    Initially, when I found Amthrax, I thought I had to defend and bellow my intellect, education, life experience, and Catholic-turned-Atheist belief system, etc. I was reeling in an inferno of indignation over what had been spewed at me from a grown man, the one human being closest to my heart, who now thought LIFE had the answers to the problems of the universe and I was just a stupid J.O.B.’r with no vision. What happened after that was: some thought I was trying to talk themselves out of THEIR own belief system, etc., and some posting on Amthrax thought trying to get to the underlying belief system propaganda of LIFE was a waste of time, because showing the flaws of the money scheme should be enough to stop people.

  15. webelieved permalink
    August 28, 2012 6:19 am

    Wisdom- You are right, team does use religious doctrine as a reason to get women to support their husbands and submit to a position below their husband. They believe women are to submit under their husbands leadership in the family for their own protection etc based on biblical principle. This was used for the husband to abuse the wife, however it does get women to not question things and to go along with things maybe they may not agree with. Women are taught to lift up their husbands, encourage them and not to complain they are gone, or spending money building the business etc. Men are taught they are to step up, be a man and take care of their families and if their wives are working they shouldn’t be golfing, watching football etc. So LIFE is the answer to make enough money to get the wives home with the children. Many of the leader’s wives then home school their kids. There are even groups of homeschooling moms in SE Wisconsin that work with the Hawkins and other leaders. The Woodwards also home school their kids. I have no issue with homeschooling and believe it can be good, but this is another example of how this business invades EVERY area of your life. You are always with your team. You become isolated to the outside, real world.

  16. webelieved permalink
    August 28, 2012 6:26 am

    Wisdom- The money allocation is just one piece of the puzzle. People are sucked in on emotion and the promises of income. Even if the truth is out about the money, people still will be sucked into this thing. Showing them the comp plan analysis, while very powerful, is only one piece of getting them to think and getting them out of the group. Many destructive groups/cults don’t even pay people and they still work for free because of the deception/ thought reform used on them. In Team/life the bait is the money. But the trap is the propaganda, otherwise why would so many stay when the majority haven’t made money/profit in this thing for years?

  17. webelieved permalink
    August 28, 2012 6:31 am

    Wisdom- Don’t worry about posting so much. Many of us have done that, and many are just reading and will pop back in later. That is how it works here. I for one rant on about my story because I know some people will only read one article here and make a decision. I repeat my story because I am here for the new person and the people who need healing after leaving this group. Some most likely don’t like it and that’s ok. I love the posters here and we are all working for the common goal of setting people free and opening up critical thinking.

  18. webelieved permalink
    August 28, 2012 6:33 am

    Im sorry, missed a word. This was NOT used for the husband to abuse the wife.

  19. webelieved permalink
    August 28, 2012 6:34 am

    Is your son’s wife involved in the group?

  20. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    August 28, 2012 6:57 am

    webelieved: in your last few posts, you spoke of the mind-bending techniques, and the bastardization of family relationships, the rigid expectations, the education changes (which can reduce outside influences), the submission, social isolation and possible marginalizing of family members, etc.

    FOR NEW PEOPLE HERE: this, my friends, is EXACTLY what Dexter Yager of the dark side of Amway developed as motivational material/training for the hidden portion, the supposed-to-not-be portion of one side of Amway, i.e., the distributor leadership side of a business where no more than 10% of any money coming in was to be “earned” from tapes and indoctrination and expectations.

    FOR NEW PEOPLE HERE: Orrin Woodward and Chris Brady n Bunch came out of first, AMWAY, then Amway/Quixtar (supposed to be a new focus in online; Woodward etal would eventually sue Quixtar, claiming it, too, was a pyramid scheme), and then rolled that into Mon Avie (the $40/bottle juice selling scandal where even Oprah WInfrey would sue), and now, voila, we’ve got Team/Life. Since his days in Amway, Woodward has always used the basic foundation indoctrination tenets of Dexter Yager (who by the way, according to his own website is still alive and well, filthy rich and in organizations run by Amway).

    FOR THE NEW PEOPLE HERE: read Merchants of Deception—and it all becomes crystal clear….ALL of it……just the “poohbah” position names have changed; and this has changed, too: now there’s not really any tangible product like floor cleaners and vacuum cleaners to sell yourself or customers. Woodward has, quite “miraculously” managed to create a borderline hidden pyramid scheme, where members buying cheap-to-produce paper and CDs, is what sustains the ultra-wealthy at the top.

    FOR THE NEW PEOPLE HERE: what’s some main differences between Amway (the most powerful MLM business on the planet, and who’s been getting sued since the 1970’s) and LIFE?

    1) Amway still sells real, albeit overpriced renewable products to end-consumers, like make-up, cleaning products, etc. (Even their own distributors in the past never realized that most of the money they DID get–and there wasn’t much to be had if you weren’t at least a Double Diamond level or a supreme toady—came from the hidden materials/meetings/tapes sales to other distributors in their downlines, etc.)

    2) Amway’s owners pooh-pooh the idea of the indoctrination portion (but ol’ Dexter Yager continues to thrive), and yet, and for example from Merchants of Deception: their ultra top “Crown Diamonds” level distributors could, for example, make almost 3 million bucks a year on the “team development side of it” while, in essence, only $130,000 came from their downline portion of the bonus in the actual, bonafide legal sales of tangible goods!

    3) Woodward has figured out a scheme by where the formerly “illegal” or “hidden side” now becomes legal: you are no longer a distributor with a vested interest in your own business—now you are an “independent contractor”; they blast how you can just get into it for yourself and try to enrich your family/faith life and not sell to others—of course, there’s no money to be made at that, AND they give a 30-day money back guarantee. Things like this allow Woodward to consider people in the hidden pyramid just “end consumers”. Ergo: it’s legal.

  21. webelieved permalink
    August 28, 2012 7:08 am

    Wisdom- you got it! From one lie to another. Orrin and company then put right in LIfe policies and procedures if you build your supposed business you can have it taken away, for ANY or no reason by the poobah Policy Counsel, with no rights except arbitration! You own NOTHING while they use and abuse you and your pocketbook!

  22. webelieved permalink
    August 28, 2012 7:10 am

    I call it skirting the law and very unethical for a bunch of self professing Christians!

  23. webelieved permalink
    August 28, 2012 7:21 am

    Orrin is basically doing what he claimed Amway was doing in his lawsuit. Someone said they are signing up their kids as customers
    . He also call his own distributors customers! He sued Amway for not having customers and yet his training companies leaders, behind the scenes, taught everyone to hit the customer button in Quixtar/Amway when placing personal orders! Then when he sued Amway, they asked everyone in Team, on the wisper campaign, to write a notarized confession to our Attorney General that we had zero customers and Amway was a pyramid scheme!

  24. webelieved permalink
    August 28, 2012 7:23 am

    Of course we had no idea we did anything illegal. We were following our upline and the system! But Orrin knew all those years and raked in the dough on his system! System income was WAY more then Amway income! Criminals!

  25. webelieved permalink
    August 28, 2012 7:29 am

    These liars need to go to jail.

  26. webelieved permalink
    August 28, 2012 7:41 am

    And let me tell you, I only remember once, a few minutes, in YEARS Orrin ever teaching us from stage, about getting customers! Come to find out, after years of doing this “business” we were running an illegal pyramid scheme! According to our OWN LEADER! You wonder why I am pissed? But guess what most of the money and lifestyle he claims to have today, came from his Amway days in his tool business, which is basically the same business as LIFE just with a new spin and name. He doesn’t disclose this of course. And for years he claimed he knew it was an illegal pyramid and yet he kept us working and bringing in more blind people to make him and the top rich. We used all the same tools, books, cds etc back then.

  27. webelieved permalink
    August 28, 2012 7:50 am

    Typical of Orrin. Independent Contractor? That is so he can blame the distributor and take ZERO responsibility for his business or teaching. He will say they did it wrong, taught it wrong. etc. That is what he does. He belongs in jail with Bernie.
    It is amazing what thought reform/undue influence does. Most of his followers cannot even see he misled them for years and they followed. They make him out to be some sort of savior. They believe he is changing this industry and is SO generous with his pay plan. What a joke! This guy is a egomaniac who doesn’t need the money anymore, but loves the power he has over people. Really sick!

  28. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    August 28, 2012 7:57 am

    webelieved: ahhhhhhh, my favorite topic: the bringing in of Christianity into MLMs as the glue to why you should follow the Pied Pipers of Deceit (egad, In Sheibeler’s book, the character of his upline known as Zack was either:

    FRED and LINDA HARTEIS, husband and wife; HARTIES ENTERPRISES, INC., a Pennsylvania Corporation;

    LOUIS and JEAN MAZZANTE, husband and wife;

    LEE and LINDA FESSLER, husband and wife;
    )
    ________________________________________
    TO NEW PEOPLE COMING TO THIS THREAD: most of Merchants of Deception–no kidding, on most pages–you can read how the unidentifiable upline (i.e., the wicked taskmaster above Eric and Pat Scheibeler who were at Emerald distributor status in the Amway heirarchy and about to “go Diamond” status when it all came crashing down), show interwoven concepts of what turned out to be bastardized tenets of all of the parts that any one religion could be good about.

  29. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    August 28, 2012 7:59 am

    ADDENDUM: my data on who ZACK was came right from a formal Civil complaint for COURT OF COMMON PLEAS LYCOMING COUNTY–it is available on the Internet…

  30. webelieved permalink
    August 28, 2012 7:59 am

    By the way I am guessing Dexter doesn’t like Orrin much as he stole/solicited a lot of his group over to Team. Once they got into MV many of them left Orrin and his training company (called Team Monavie). Billy Florence, Randy Haugen and many more. Wonder why? LOL! But Orrin still makes a killing off of them on the Monavie side of his business as they are listed in his down line and he and other PC get income off of their purchases! Of course that is not disclosed from stage, neither is it disclosed that Hawkins, Blomdahl, Martins, PC etc got teams given to them to count on the tool side of their business and now LIFE that they didnt earn or build! Hawkins got part of Billy Florence’s team and I also heard is raiding Billy’s group into LIFE! They or the Luerquins below them, took credit for the Peters’ personals, Richard and Jammie Fisher, into LIFE. Nice guys huh? Of course they will say the Peters and Florence and other leaders abandoned them. What a joke!

  31. webelieved permalink
    August 28, 2012 8:04 am

    Oh you better believe religious doctrine is a huge part of the LIFE business. It isn’t told up front though. It would blow out too many people. Once you get to a major it will become clear. By then you will be hooked emotionally to the love bombing, deception or your upline. Who by the way believe they are the most Christian ethical group of people. Many smaller level leaders no idea how they themselves have been deceived in the whole deal. I would place a large bet that the PC know what they are doing and that Orrin Woodward has studied thought reform/ undue influence.

  32. webelieved permalink
    August 28, 2012 8:07 am

    I agree if one wants to know how LIFE works just read Merchants of Deception. Orrin Woodward came from the same up line/ business. It really helps you understand how the hierarchy works in groups- Amway/ Team/ LIFE and why it is so powerful. Sorry about the rants. Just had to get it out. In the next few days, when I have time, I will explain how one can be sucked into this slowly a bit at a time, and where the deception is used. I bet Orrin hates us right about now. LOL! Too bad, the truth sets me free.

  33. webelieved permalink
    August 28, 2012 8:15 am

    The sad part is, Wisdom’s son and others will be told that people on this site are lying, yet their is documentation to prove it. Orrin, Brady, Marks lost 25 million dollar judgement for taking these groups I believe. Orrin sued Amway for being an illegal pyramid yet benefited from it for over a decade. There is so much proof and documentation it is sick. Sad to say most of his own followers most likely haven’t taken the time to read the court documentation. They also most likely do not know Orrin got 3 million or more to drag all of us into MV. This fact is documented in the Salt Lake Tribune I believe.. They were misled by his supposed benchmarking article about MV and followed him into that. His followers are indoctrinated not to listen to or read critical information. I do have to say it is VERY different at the top. The ones who are making a killing on this scam know people on this site are telling the truth, yet they outright lie to their followers to keep the money coming in. Sick! I actually feel sorry for them. They have sold out their friends and their souls for money. 😦

  34. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    August 28, 2012 8:49 am

    @webelieved: you bring up one word that needs to be hammered into anyone who must be here for a reason: THE CONCEPT OF POWER / POWERFUL.

    JUST A FEW EXAMPLES: it got so tawdry in the “motivational aspect” of Amway, i.e., the leadership-selling side that included: tapes, tons of meetings and getaways, etc., (that actually had Eric Sheibeler end up with 4—4!!!!–mortgages on his house, even at the Emerald-Poohbah level) that closed-door meetings that were taped by Scheibeler in his time of deep Post Traumatic Stress Syndrome and having a TRUE “coming to the Jesus of his beloved religion) actually have “Zack” (who is either Louis Mazzante or Fred Harteis or Lee Fessler–all 3 named in the complaint –source: Scheibeler’s Pennsylvania complaint that was filed and is available on the Internet)—–anyway, Zack actually started telling people when to have and how many times per day to have sex with their spouses! Zack actually claimed that “God” was telling him to say things to distributors in “Fire Up” meetings.

    FOLKS: Team or LIFE indoctrination/soul focus to get/hold members/non-members…by any other name, is still the original brain-child of Dexter Yager, who was the god-like guru of Zack, etal. There are stories in Merchants of Deception enough to curdle your blood….especially when people like Zack and Yager had, by then some years ago, actually started to BELIEVE their own hype enough to say in meetings: “God told me to say this to you.” (only what was spewing out of his mouth was worse than what anyone’s concept of a “Satan” could muster. It got so bad, that even Scheibeler in his book reached a point where he said he couldn’t repeat it anymore.

    IN READING ERIC’S BOOK, Merchants of Deception, I KNOW THAT posters like “webelieved” and others speak the truth! Besides, the ol’ lady here knows that thousands can’t be making stuff up over “sour grapes” —-the truth is out here.

    The problem is: egomaniacal as Woodward is: he KNOWS he needs to become as big as Amway to NOT have his latest scheme eventually force another iteration of the business. Hence, his attempts to get everyone convinced that all of the great minds from Socrates’s Ancient World up on through Thomas Jefferson and into the 20th Century USA and the “lazy” mother getting food stamps are ALL of the reasons Western Civilzation is in decay. It is ALL corrupted, and that has grains of truth in it: but he sees himself as a CULTURE AND BUSINESS MESSIAH/

    Note: he also needs the UNDUE INFLUENCE of political clout to have his own political action committe like the Amway founders, or have his picture taken with 6 presidents and visiting dignitaries like Dex and Birdie have. Amway has clout–true political clout by toadying up to powerful Republicans and business/policy leaders around the globe, AND seek out testimoney from religious leaders, etc. Amway is in 80+ countries around the world (and people in those countries are writing expose’ books, too).

    They aim it at Christians. Why? Because it’s a huge sect of a billion people–the people with the money they themselves can relate to. That way, they don’t have to put up with differences with Buddhists, Moslems, Non-believers, etc.

    THINK THEY ARE NOT PREJUDICED? Ask Eric Scheibeler: he has taped proof from behind closed doors that minority groups were NOT welcome. Woodward etal may not feel so rabid about it…….but I’m sure they don’t have a “non-denominational-belief” policy, either.

    Tongue in cheek: I’m sure if Woodward tried to solicit the Dali Lama, he’d be in for a let-down.

  35. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    August 28, 2012 8:53 am

    prior post major typo corrections: soul=sole; testimoney = testimony (but maybe the misprint on the last one should be left–LOL!!)

  36. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    August 28, 2012 9:10 am

    @webelieved: you said: “The sad part is, Wisdom’s son and others will be told that people on this site are lying, yet their is documentation to prove it.”

    BINGO!! Let me jump down the 19 points to final rift day between mother and son, and paraphrase what got yelled at me when I said ‘no’ to a membership.

    It went something like this SCREAMING AT A 62 YR OLD DISABLED MOM WHO WAS WEARING AN EAR-PIECE IN THE ONE EAR THAT HAD A FRACTION OF HEARING LEFT:

    The new, almost 40 yr old cult inductee into LIFE: “YOU JUST WANT TO LOOK CRAP UP ON THE INTERNET TO BE CONFRONTATIONAL!! THAT’S WHY I WOULDN’T GIVE YOU WOODWARD’S NAME WHEN YOU FIRST ASKED!! YOU SOUND STUPID!! YOU BELIEVE A FEW BLOGS BY BITTER PEOPLE WHO DIDN’T KNOW HOW TO MAKE A ‘GO’ OF IT. I MEAN, REALLY, MOM: YOU SOUND STUPID!!!!”

    He had already been indoctrinated within the first few months to pooh-pooh anything on the Internet ………which can only lead me to this: did my own kid forget I’m really NOT stupid? That there are legal documents on the internet, too? See how duped he was just two months into this nightmare?

  37. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    August 28, 2012 9:55 am

    A Pennsylvania complaint filed against Amway distributor bigwigs can be found at this address on the web…you just have to add the ‘www.’ to it. Read it was find out what the fraud complaints really were!

    amquix.info/lawsuits/scheibeler_complaint.html

  38. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    August 28, 2012 10:12 am

    Here’s another internet source to read about the tactics of these MLMs, and remember, you add the ‘www.’ to the link:

    hiddenmysteries.org/conspiracy/conspiracy/amwaybush3.shtml

  39. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    August 28, 2012 10:14 am

    Here’s another internet source to read about the tactics of MLMs—well, looky here, some people in Europe are fed up, too! Again: you add the ‘www.’ to the link:

    mlmtheamericandreammadenightmare.blogspot.com/

  40. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    August 28, 2012 10:16 am

    And just to show ya, Quixtar had a 2010 complaint against Woodwards, too. Again: you add the ‘www.’ to the link (or the http://):

    dockets.justia.com/docket/michigan/miwdce/1:2010cv00720/63518/

  41. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    August 28, 2012 10:19 am

    Ahhhh, a little Biblical reference here: find out more about our ‘false prophets/profits’ of pyramids and MLMS; you add the ‘http://www.’ to the link::

    falseprofits.com/FP/Home.html

  42. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    August 28, 2012 10:30 am

    Oh, well looky here MLMrs get litigious with one another…Woodward and Bradys etal are now PLAINTIFFS in this APPEALS case in 2010) (all but two families involved had names deleted by me here for brevity–deleted except LIFE’s biggest bigwigs–big list of them at the site):

    ORRIN WOODWARD; LAURIE WOODWARD;

    CHRIS BRADY; TERRY BRADY;

    What’s this about? Go to: (you add the http://)

    federal-circuits.vlex.com/vid/ron-simmons-liberty-mutual-fire-insuranc-265398122

    Here’s the background–a quote from legal records::

    ___________________________________________
    “Background The Appellants are individuals who were Independent Business Owners, commonly known as IBO’s, in a multi-level marketing operation owned and run by Quixtar.

    1 Quixtar’s multi-level marketing operation recruits IBO’s who sell Quixtar’s health and beauty products online. IBO’s also earn money by recruiting other new IBO’s (“Downstream IBO’s”) and receiving a bonus based on the sales of their Downstream IBO’s. All IBO’s pay an annual fee and sign an annual contract with Quixtar. Among other things, the contract contains an arbitration provision, a code of conduct, a confidentiality provision, and a non-compete clause.

    The relationship between the Appellants and Quixtar became strained.

    According to Quixtar, the Appellants began soliciting Downstream IBO’s to leave Quixtar and join other multi-level marketing operations, in part by disparaging the Quixtar opportunity.

    In 2007, three of the Appellants, Ron Simmons, Lisa Simmons, and Charles Scott (the “Simmons Appellants”) demanded arbitration (the “Simmons Arbitration”) against Quixtar to challenge the enforceablity of the non-compete agreement.

    Quixtar counterclaimed, asserting causes of action for (1) breach of contract, (2) tortious interference with existing contract, (3) tortious interference with advantageous business relationships, (4) misappropriation of trade secrets, and (5) violations of the Lanham Act.

    At about the same time, Quixtar initiated separate arbitration proceedings (the “Woodward Arbitraion”) against the remaining Appellants (the “Woodward Appellants”) alleging the same causes of action, minus the Lanham Act claim. Both groups of Appellants Case: 09-41123 Document: 00511428814 Page: 3 Date Filed: 03/30/2011 claim that Liberty Mutual owed them a defense in their respective arbitrations per the terms of the policy. Liberty Mutual disagreed. ”
    _____________________________________

  43. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    August 28, 2012 10:33 am

    Go to this website to see the back and forth arguments in court proceedings between Amway/Quixtar and those who were trying to break away: You add the ( http://)

    federal-circuits.vlex.com/vid/ron-simmons-liberty-mutual-fire-insuranc-265398122

  44. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    August 28, 2012 10:37 am

    And now look and see how Messianic Woodward etal went after “anonymous online speakers”

    You add the ( http:// )

    federal-circuits.vlex.com/vid/anonymous-online-speakers-usdc-nvr-238028242?ix_resultado=3.0&query%5Bbuscable_id%5D=US&query%5Bbuscable_type%5D=Pais&query%5Bq%5D=Orrin+Woodward

  45. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    August 28, 2012 10:40 am

    correction to above link on the anonymous speaker suit: that was Quixtar going after Woody etal and gets really convoluted

  46. Soon2BOut permalink
    August 28, 2012 11:39 am

    Miss Wisdom, the reason why I asked is because I know huge leaders on the Hawkins team. Please feel free to email me, I can get these ‘soon2bout’ leaders as well to talk him out of it.

    no_more_obama2016@yahoo.com

    anyone else can email me too 🙂

  47. webelieved permalink
    August 28, 2012 11:42 am

    Wisdom- you can put the actual links. I am sure Amthrax wouldn’t mind. 🙂

    By Tue way when I was in Team it was recommended by poobah Pc to go to a certain type of church. Some leaders including Peters,Hawkins, Meilke, Fisher, Luerquin etc were told by poobah Guzzardo, he didn’t need to go to church as he had Orrin and Pastor Dickie, who by the way is now gone. Guzzardo also said in the same meeting around his campfire in July of 2008 “I don’t want to sound like Hitler, but we have superior knowledge”. When refering to the outside world! The saddest part to the Peters was that no one blinked an eye!
    Crazy huh?

  48. webelieved permalink
    August 28, 2012 11:44 am

    By the way.oops

  49. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    August 28, 2012 12:13 pm

    @Soon: wrote to you

    @webelieved: bwhahahahha! I don’t even notice others’ typos anymore after being on here a few weeks….I just did that other one because of “testimoney” vs “testimony”.

    @webelieved: I can’t do the links because my own computer won’d let me do it in the blog box…it blanks out every time….go figure.

    And on another note: they wanted you to go to a certain Church?!!!!!!!!!! Are you kidding me?!!!!!!!!!!! Baptist, I bet, eh?

    JOKE OF THE DAY DOING INTERNET SEARCHES, AND I SWEAR THIS IS TRUE:

    I plug in Woodward’s name…get a special search site….hit it again…first thing that comes up:

    VOILA!!! TERMINIX (trademark business) EXTERMINATION!!! LOL!!

    It happened every time…it was a “newsorganizer” site.

  50. August 28, 2012 12:14 pm

    Putting in links is fine in your comments. Be aware that posting multiple links (over three) may cause the comment to go into moderation.

  51. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    August 28, 2012 12:16 pm

    Amthrax: first I have to find out from you: if I post a clickable link to Federal or State legal papers, could I be sued for misuse of that info? I mean, dont’cha think they might want to silence folks one way or another?

  52. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    August 28, 2012 12:21 pm

    test post to my joke of the day to see if this link will post this time; I’ve never tried to post 3 in a row, so I don’t know WHY some of my stuff blasts off into cyberspace:

    http://www.newsorganizer.com/search/orrin-woodward/

  53. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    August 28, 2012 12:23 pm

    Hey!! I just used that link from the AMthrax site, and this time, TERMINIX was #2 on the list….above that, they offered to seel me arrest records–LOL!

  54. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    August 28, 2012 12:41 pm

    For others: (and Soon2BOut: you can use addy I gave you privately but it’s my business one–have been an eBay manufacturing seller for years now after I became too disabled to continue in high tech nursing) here’s another addy others can use–I think one of these still works:

    musthavebeenterriblemother@hotmail.com

    jojoAmthraxfan@hotmail.com

  55. webelieved permalink
    August 28, 2012 2:21 pm

    Soon to be out-of-date so you’re saying huge leaders are soon to be leaving Hawkins team? I wouldn’t say their names here until they leave as the hammer will come down on them from their upline.

  56. webelieved permalink
    August 28, 2012 2:22 pm

    Computer added the “of date” part! Lol!

  57. webelieved permalink
    August 28, 2012 3:24 pm

    Just know Orrin reads this site and there are trolls here that may contact you. You can send email to amthrax and he can pass it on also.

  58. August 28, 2012 3:28 pm

    If these are publicly available documents, I think you are in the clear to post them.

  59. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    August 28, 2012 3:48 pm

    @webelieved: trolls…yeah, I know….that’s okay….I’m ready to post my name/address/picture and everything to BEG someone to help me get the loved out out of LIFE/team STEALTH before it’s too late…found YOUNG locals on facebook with this.

    Hey, you know what? I think there’s private websites out there where they can go rant, and info is kept on their own servers….

  60. webelieved permalink
    August 28, 2012 4:55 pm

    If you go through Amthrax, he can assure you that who you are talking to is the same person that is posting. He knows if the IP address is the same. That is how I will contact you if you don’t mind. It may take a bit to get it back as I am sure he/she has many other things to do than moderate this site. 🙂

  61. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    August 28, 2012 5:25 pm

    webelieved: yup, that’s fine with me, too. Doesn’t he routinely check that to look for trolls?

  62. webelieved permalink
    August 28, 2012 5:54 pm

    I’m sure he does.. but he volunteers his time. 🙂

  63. Soon2BOut permalink
    August 28, 2012 6:45 pm

    yup. leaders get annoyed too. no growth, new lies, same people on tuesday nights, blah blah blah. I wouldn’t post any names here until they’re done.

  64. Cali permalink
    August 28, 2012 6:57 pm

    I just got so angry reading through this. I cannot believe they are getting away with this. It’s so messed up!

    @wisdom: I am sorry if I missed it but is your son’s wife on board?

  65. webelieved permalink
    August 28, 2012 7:23 pm

    Soon2bout- Do many leaders know of this site or what happpened to the Peters and the Morgans in Wisconsin? I dis see Blomdahl told people Raquel went nuts or something.Lol! He’s lucky she didn’t go nuts! She should have!

  66. webelieved permalink
    August 28, 2012 7:25 pm

    Cali- do you mean all the documents and lies they’ve told?

  67. webelieved permalink
    August 28, 2012 7:30 pm

    Wisdom and Cali- Did you find where Tim Marks was fined for hiding documents from the court? In the Quixtar lawsuits.

  68. webelieved permalink
    August 28, 2012 7:54 pm

    It is so sad how many lies are told in the group. I would bet their are many that have a yuck feeling in their gut but just keep hanging on, hoping.
    It ticked me off watching leaders volume load in their teams in MV to hit pin levels that weren’t legit and then walking across stage for the recognition. That is just plain deceptive. Unfortunately seeing this crap, the new guy in the audience believes he can do it too. I saw this in a MV back office. The same leaders who were volume loading were lifted up by Woodward as thee people to follow! I am talking thousands of dollars worth of juice pushed through teams for two weeks in a row to hit these fake pin levels. Groups of leaders were walking for Ruby who in reality/legitimately were only silvers/golds! Of course these multiple leaders never hit the Ruby level again in MV because most people’s businesses were hardly growing, if at all.
    We also know others in Michigan who were trumping up their Power Player status at majors and some leaders were given other leaders’ teams by Orrin, of course behind the scenes. Later they took these people into LIFE and of course others MV businesses were being raided as well.
    The deception in Team/ Life goes on and on. Good thing some people will only believe the lies so long before they start to listen to their gut. It is my hope more people will find all sides of the information and make informed decisions about their involvement with Orrin Woodward and company.

  69. Kris permalink
    August 28, 2012 11:23 pm

    Thank you, Amthrax, and all those who have commented. Although it was too much to read through every comment, even skimming them certainly gave me the information I needed.

    A friend approached me with “an exciting business opportunity” a few weeks ago, and I met with him and his “friend” (a TEAM leader) last weekend. I listened, took some information, and we set up a follow-up meeting for tomorrow night. I haven’t been able to get the whole thing off my mind, and have been very apprehensive about whether or not joining LIFE would be a good move. My family is in desperate need of a financial turn-around, so my desire for another source of income and my fear of getting caught in a trap have been consistently battling it out since the first meeting.

    After reading the comments here, I can already see how joining would affect the person I have worked so hard to become. I don’t like the idea of pushing products on people, and had wondered how it would affect the relationships in my life. The idea of me becoming a door-to-door-vacuum-salesman type person made me sick to my stomach, but I could see how I’d have to do just that if I took up my friend on this “opportunity”. Your comments have brought light to all of my concerns, and that in itself is enough to make me turn and run.

    Thank you again! I feel confident that at the meeting tomorrow, I will be making the right choice when I tell them “Thanks, but no thanks.”

  70. August 29, 2012 2:03 am

    I do not know much about MoonaVie, i heard that it is Amway like company producing some so called health drinks through which financial freedome is achieved? I also read that, every person in this planet will come across some kind of MLM at some point of time. I would like to add couple of things to the above list to allow IBOs to think beyond amway and read – Amway Business reference Guide as well as The Truth Behind Smoke and Mirros of Multi Level Marketing. If you need to quickly you come to my blog and check out how badly I suffered during my tenure.

  71. Brent Hansen permalink
    August 29, 2012 2:20 am

    @Webelieved, You wrote, “Then when he sued Amway, they asked everyone in Team, on the wisper campaign, to write a notarized confession to our Attorney General that we had zero customers and Amway was a pyramid scheme!”

    I think if copies of these “notarized” confessions were available you can doctor them to erase the names on the document, and have Amthrax post them on this blog. This would be a very powerful piece of evidence as almost anyone involved knew they had zero customers, yet continued to click the customer/client reporting button claiming they did.

    Interesting however is the fact that if you read through Amway’s rules, they hang the burden of proof on the Platinum distributors. Ironic that a multi-billion dollar company would hold Platinums (people inside the pyramid) responsible, and liable to police the distributor force, shouldn’t the company figure out a better way? It is crazy that they are the ones who are given the charge to make sure all distributors are compliant.

    I think a PDF copy of anything provided would be great documentation. Names could be whited out, but it would help further expose the lies.

    Thanks

  72. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    August 29, 2012 2:41 am

    @AmwayQuitter: not sure I follow you. Where is your blog located? Could you post a link here?

    Also: not sure what you meant by “think beyond Amway”—it’s hard to “think beyond it” when Woodward and Brady etal, were IN it and then in Quixtar, and then in Mona Vie, and now team/LIFE. Did you just mean that there’s other sources to read out there on MLMs in general?

  73. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    August 29, 2012 4:13 am

    NEWBIE HELPING NEWBIES BLOGIE BLURB FOR THE DAY: LIFE STRUCTURE

    Did you ever wonder what the insider lingo means/stands for? Mostly it’s in reference to the level of achievement people have reached in a multi-level marketing business (an MLM). (Note: the Mon Avie juice business is referred to as MV)

    Example: in Amway, they had levels like: Ruby, Emerald, Diamond, Double-Diamonds, etc. (to name a few)

    In LIFE, it’s just a convoluted way of figuring out your status and pay (known as a commission bonus), and remember, in most levels in LIFE, your status is also dependent on quarterly sales, too, i.e., you can hit a sales level for 1 month; 3 month; 6 month, or achieve it for all 12 months.

    So levels have 4 internal-tier levels, too, and I won’t bother repeating them in this list.
    These internal 4-tier levels hold true for all levels (which allows them to not give bonuses or give bonuses on a quarterly basis)

    NOTE ABOUT SELLING VOLUME: In the LIFE system, most of the time, but not always: 1 PV (which stands for Personal Volume) equals $1.00 (sometimes a little more).

    First, what I call: the PEON level: If you come into LIFE and bring in 3 more members in the first 6 months you are in it: your “bonus” is $7.50. They use increasing percentages for increased volume (see Mike Collins’s work elsewhere on Amthrax)

    LEADER: there are 2 ways to qualify: but here’s a quote from the LIFE compensation plan first: “Once a member has generated 15,000 PV or 50% on the bonus chart in a single month, they have achieved the first level of leadership within the LIFE business and become a Leader.”

    1) through customer and member sales and you get up to 15,000 PV or $$;

    2) have a team generating 15,000 PV or $$ PLUS sell an extra 6,000 PV in additional “volume” / sales) COMMENTARY NOTE: folks, it’d be a LOT easier to get a real job!!

    COORDINATOR, (to qualify for this you have to have 2 teams of people generating 15,000PV and carry 4,000 PV or $$ in additional “volume” /sales )

    SENIOR COORDINATOR (to qualify for senior coordinator, you have to have 5 teams generating 15,000 PV or $$ and be selling an extra 2500 PV or $$),

    AND ALL LIFE COACH LEVELS (to be life coach, you have to have at least 6 teams of people generating 15,000 PV and be selling an extra 600 PV). (Example of internal tiers as well: Leader 1; Leader3; Leader6; Leader 12, and so forth)

    Along with those designations, of course, comes the actual volume in sales that you have to achieve through customer and member sales

    WHAT ARE THE “POOHBAHS” YOU SPEAK OF?

    You can hit higher ranks like this:

    EXECUTIVE LIFE COACH: has 9 teams of people generating 15,000 PV
    DOUBLE LIFE COACH: has 12 teams of people generating 15,000 PV
    TRIPLE LIFE COACH: has 15 teams of people generating 15,000 PV
    CROWN LIFE COACH: has 18 teams of people generating 15,000 PV
    CROWN AMBASSADOR LIFE COACH: has 20 teams of people generating 15,000 PV
    (and remember, these upper poohbahs have 1,3,6,12 month achievement levels to reach, too) (Above these levels are the rarified Policy Council)

    Note: go to other threads and info on Amthrax and see the actual math: making money in this organization is very hard work, and most of the cash floats to the top, because there are convoluted ways inside the hierarchy they don’t thoroughly explain, even in their compensation plan handout. There are “Leader Depth Bonuses”, “One Time Only” bonsues, etc. Example: if you and your downliners earn “so much” in a month…your own personal bonus will float to the poohbah (if there is one) above you and you’ll get the one from the highest seller below you in your downline.

    And here’s the bottom line: by the time you’d manage a $5,000 to $9,000 “bonus” (remember, that’s the 40% tax bracket, too, if listed as a bonus), you’ll have so much time, money, materials and gas invested, that when you figure out your net profit, you’ll realize you shouldn’t have quit your real J.O.B. (condescendingly referred to since the Amway days and still today in LIFE as: Just Over Broke).

    Couldn’t find any information on how much the highest “Policy Council” Mighty Grand Poohbahs make, but it was said to me: Dan Hawkins makes $250,000 per month sitting in his mansion in Whitewater, WI! Who knows if it’s true or not.

    Can you imagine how much is floating into the pocket of Orrin Woodward just from this MLM scam?

    Yeah, Keep “Living In Excellence”, LIFE, while the bulk of your domesticated dominions blindly keep living the LIE while YOU try to tell them that if they fail, it’s all their own fault.

  74. Brent Hansen permalink
    August 29, 2012 5:10 am

    @51 click AmwayQuitters name on his post. Great blog by the way Quitter, good job!

  75. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    August 29, 2012 5:28 am

    Brent: ohhhhh, no wonder that person’s name had a different color! LOL!! Thanks.

  76. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    August 29, 2012 5:35 am

    @Amway Quitter and @Brent: thanks! got it! Gonna read Winston’s Smoke and Mirrors today….and check out the rest of the blog.

    Is it worse than Merchants of Deception? (I understood MoD easily after the first few pages—I think it was Eric Scheibeler’s way of writing, as if it was coming out of the depths of his gut or something; but in the beginning, I had to kind of surmise what it meant to be Ruby or Emerald–but when he got to the supposed money levels in it, it became very very clear–LOL!)

  77. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    August 29, 2012 6:29 am

    About application to the organization called team/LIFE in conjunction with the online booklet called: The Truth Behind the Smoke and Mirrors of Multi-Level Network Marketing:

    if you read this booklet (I couldn’t put it down and read it twice already), you’ll begin to see how:

    1) LIFE, which fits the bill of all the author says in this booklet, ALSO gets you with the grip and hype by putting an induction and maintenance focus on Christians and their religion. It’s the binding agent–they use it to keep you motivated (why, God WANTS you to ‘be all you can be’ and be filthy rich, if ONLY you’d listen to us kind of claptrap) (note: this, of course, was also done in Amway). It’s a business tactic I call: ‘Gone Biblical’. Why, they even have Sunday services, dont’cha know. (no offense to Christian believers–this is meant to show how LIFE bastardizes good peoples’ religion and belief systems)

    2) Unlike the overt or covert MLM’s (multi-level marketing schemes) or NMs (network marketing), Orrin Woodward’s L.I.F.E. (his 4th iteration of an MLM since his indoctrination into Dex Yager’s slimy hidden side of Amway in the 90’s), gets around you having to “buy in” as a licensed distributor by now calling people coming in: “independent contractors”–this way, technically there is no pyramid (but never mind that their compensation plan relies on just that concept of how pyramids pay out).

    3) In LIFE’s absolutely fantastical contract you sign (see it elsewhere on Amthrax), not only are you are NOT a vested licensed distributor of renewable household goods, etc., you still somehow can lose your supposedly non-existent DOWNLINE at the whim of LIFE. Well, what’s to lose if you are an independent contractor, you ask? Because it’s just like the Smoke and Mirrors booklet says: it does NOT matter what they say up front or try to obfuscate about in structure and function: it’s still an MLM, and one just inside of the law.

    4) When all else fails, the LIFE contract gets you to sign up front: you have no legal recourse and if you fail, it is your own fault, i.e., you just did not learn their “teachings” (propaganda) properly.

    5) LIFE makes sure to tell you that you can just buy their product for yourself, and not sell (and somehow on a Utube video, one leader, Marc Militello actually comes out and says you can climb up the upline doing this)—the outcome is: Woodward can use the “inactive” people as “end consumers of the product”—ergo, no pyramid scheme. He also gets buy with this because it’s an individual choice and opinion as to what they are selling, reselling and repackaging has any value to the individual.

    6) LIFE offers a 30-day, money back guarantee for your first $50 involvement….this, too, places them nicely inside of the law and helps them to look good.

    The majority of people in LIFE are MEMBERS paying for cheap repetitive paper and plastic goods, i.e., (brochures, lists, calendars, CDs, etc., along with expensive training and ‘happy sunshine up your butt’ meetings). Example: a CD may cost 11.95 to 14.95. (see the LIFE “tools” list elsewhere on Amthrax) It likely costs less than a buck-something to produce in bulk. Oh, and let us not forget: just to take the Mental Fitness Challenge Test costs almost $269 (you can get extra bonus money if you get people to buy THIS puppy!)

    The Truth Behind the Smoke and Mirrors of Multi-Level Marketing is well-worth the read—it supports what the actual truth is of this thing called team/LIFE, now referred to as LIFE (but don’t be fooled: LIFE/team is how it’s advertised). Without the “TEAM” portion, well, there’s no business to be had…..not a rubber ball….not a vacuum cleaner…nothing.

  78. August 29, 2012 6:33 am

    Hi all. Ageof wisdom, welcome. I just skimmed thought these comments for now, but I did want to tell you the invitation to Hawkin’s new manson was significent to me, no doubt he was doing the “dream-building”. When Claude Hamilton’s 2million dollar house was still in construction, Lana Hamilton (his wife) took a bunch of us ladies on a “dream-building” tour. Just the foundation, wooden structure and some stone were up then. But instead of talking about business strageties with us she talked about all these richy stuff she was going to get. (We all live in the Halifax, NS area, the Hamiltons live in Bedford).

    And there’s all this thought reform stuff, they called “change your thinking”. It was like walking into a room of business-dress-clad robots. They all dressed the same and talked the same and hugged each other and such.

    That Merchants of Deception book captivaed me, I stayed up all night reading it lol. It was like if you substuted Yager for Woodward, and Amway for Monavie and their tools business (forget the name of it then) to TEAM there ya go, exactly what I’ve observed even as a lowly autoshipper-girl-with-no-recruits.

    I’m anxious to hear about more legal action against Woodward and his motley crew.

  79. August 29, 2012 6:36 am

    Just to be clear they were hawking that miracle acai juice when I was in, I got out before LIFE came into play. But I was there when there was talk on focussing less on the product and more on the business opportunity.

  80. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    August 29, 2012 6:49 am

    @velizabethwhite: “webelieved” says they still let people who have the acai juice (Mon Avie business) sell it, but not really advertise it—perhaps Oprah Winfrey and Dr. Oz starting lawsuits, etc., helped to create the mad dash to get a new scheme going? LOL! But yeah, from what I’ve been reading, focusing on the “biz” or “team side” or “motivational side” has really been the underlying push since the behind-closed-doors days of Amway.

  81. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    August 29, 2012 6:50 am

    Accidentally came across Orrin Expounding upon how this country needs to get back to Judeo-Christian values:

    http://www.orrinwoodwardteam.com/blog.html?blogID=11

  82. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    August 29, 2012 7:03 am

    ORRIN WOODWARD, LEADERSHIP GURU (his words, not mine) HIMSELF TELLING US WHAT HIS “CHARITABLE FOCUS” IS….
    (that’d be proselytizing—religion and the Christian God)

    “Charitable Focus: Orrin’s committed to spreading the good news of Jesus Christ, to assisting less fortunate youth, is involved in efforts to build churches and orphanages in India and to re-instill Biblical values in homes around the globe.”

    http://www.orrinwoodwardteam.com/about_us.html

    In my humble opinion, and PLEASE don’t get me wrong: building orphanages is good; building churches–that’s all okay for those of your Faith (or even if Catholics would like to build a temple for Hindus)…what is NOT okay is to force starving people to convert to your viewpoint just to get a meal–and yes, this has happened all throughout history and it happens today, not 25 miles from my home, e.g., as a Milwaukee County RN supervisor for a business dedicated to: homeless, addicted and ill populations, I had to send people to sites at night where they would not be fed and housed for the night unless they prayed or sat through services–and some of these people hadn’t eaten in days and were out in sub-zero weather. Something is direly wrong with such a concept. Our humanity should come first, i.e., fulfill man’s basic need BEFORE you force this.

    The most important aspect of this is: he is using Christianity, too, in a subversive manner in the LIFE business……ill-gotten gains……..then used to help his favorite “charities” which uses the ill-gotten gains to do futher conversions. How ethnocentric can the Westernized world get?

  83. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    August 29, 2012 7:20 am

    Back to the indoctrination aspect and trying to convince you that you don’t really need to know why/how you get paid: listen to what Hernandez says BEFORE he tries to explain the payment scheme for Mon Avie (the now, almost but not yet defunct $40/bottle juice business. Note: Mon Avie used “diamond” terms on the order of status that Amway used).

  84. August 29, 2012 7:44 am

    Any of Orrin’s charitable efforts will always be contradicted by his crooked business. His messages always conflict. On the one hand, one of his primary thrusts to newcomers is that you can be rich like him (putting it crudely), but on the other hand, he does things regarding his charitable focus, which I see as a good thing. (He would call this cognitive dissonance (if his eyes were opened) – which is essentially what lead to my leaving).

    I admire any effort to help the homeless. I see nothing wrong with the “meal and a message” approach. While I can’t speak for every organization that encompasses this approach who may have abused the situation (ie, “forcing” others to hear before eating…although I’m suspect of using the word “force” – a word that is often misused and misapplied to people or groups who believe that humans must be guided by universal principles, eg. Abortion kills babies. Therefore it should be illegal. Others would say we are “forcing” our beliefs on them regarding what they “can do with their own bodies” when in reality the issue is not about “forcing” others to do or not do anything, but the larger truth – that abortion is murder – transcends all other factors and the baby deserves the right to life.)

    I see nothing wrong with the overall goal of these types of missions, and even their methods. In fact, I see it as a positive thing. These organizations see man for what he really is, someone who certainly has basic human needs, but also as one who has deep spiritual needs. The mindset is often, “what good does it do to feed a man without attempting to deal with the deeper issues/habits that have brought him to our doors?” I’m not saying that everyone is at fault for falling on hard times, nor am I saying that they are necessarily lazy either. But, truthfully, how much better is it to nourish not only the physical needs of a person but also their mental, emotional and even spiritual needs? Many times these people are stuck in cyclical patterns that keep them from rising from the ashes, so to speak, and simply food won’t help them escape these patterns. In some ways, it just enables them to keep repeating them. “Why bother changing if I have a free meal awaiting me everyday?”
    But if even one soul can escape the clutches of a self-destructive lifestyle through the efforts of these organizations, and help release them from negative emotional or mental bondage that ensnares them, I’d say that’s a good thing, a goal so lofty that perhaps…we all should aspire to.

  85. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    August 29, 2012 7:49 am

    @Amway Quitter and @Brent: Ah ha!! Newbie gets a v8 nuggie!!

    If one applies Woodward’s very Christian-orientated (and induction-technique and sustaining methodoloies) forcefullness in the LIFE business, (along with his other proselytizing interests and goals) AGAINST the mathematical “bottom line” in Winston’s ‘Smoke and Mirrors’ booklet:

    one can see how Woodward is staving staving off the inevitable saturation of the hidden pyramid BY choosing people (Christians) who: number at least 1 billion people on the planet, and when they run out or quit or just can’t produce, then he’ll have a ‘nursery source’, i.e., more people proselytized into Christianity (and most likely his scheme is already instilled, since he’s focusing on building orphanages and churches. He’s no dummy…he knows all about exponential geometric growth. He has to invest money, too, to STOPGAP saturation problems.

    I don’t think I’m being too far-fetched here, either.

  86. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    August 29, 2012 7:58 am

    @mattjer22: you can be suspect of what I claim happened in my job as a Milwaukee County RN downtown (inner city) Detox supervisor to the homeless, addicted and infirm. (The fact is: it still goes on today–and when I make a donation to that organization, I put a disclaimer on it that I would hope the money I give would be for someone who cannot or will not pray to be fed/housed for that night). The people I speak of ended up back at RN Supervisors in the inner city like me who had to scramble to get them in to, at least, a hospital emergency room for awhile to keep warm, have sandwiches, etc. If you care to write to me through Amthrax, I will give you my name, license number, former employer, etc.

  87. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    August 29, 2012 8:02 am

    @mattjer: forgot something: the word “force” defined: when one is feeling ill, hungover/drugged, freezing on the streets and without sleep for days: to make them say a Hail Mary or the Lord’s Prayer or whatever, is just plain wrong. It is the worst kind of “undue influence” and non-charitable at best. For those men who ended up at that facility and who had been warned by me that no beds were left anywhere else…would you not call it “force” to have to pray just so you don’t freeze to death?

  88. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    August 29, 2012 8:25 am

    Clarification for mattjer: my job was ACUTE care intervention, i.e., to prevent death…not the long-term rehabilitation portion…which would be a more appropriate time to have someone find hope, to find their “higher power”. On 20 degree below zero nights, I found out what was happening to people when they came back to my door several times per night. It was NOT for me to judge or blame why there were on the streets and had become regulars out there (statistically, most who live like that have a degree to a lot of mental illness, too)—my job was to help them maintain what little dignity they had left and to keep their bodies alive until the next step could be achieved. Even the Milwaukee County hospital would get on my case, saying I was sending them people that they didn’t have room for anywhere. But at least, I didn’t get a sense from a county hospital that it had to do with religion. BTW, the name of the place I sent them to that they got turned away from, had sort of a misnomer name, and it looked on the surface to be a county facility, but I guess it wasn’t.

    The Jesus of the Bible fed the masses to show he cared, not “you’ve gotta listen to me before I fill your bellies.” And to get back on point: LIFE is bastardizing the good points of Christianity, too—they know where their common ground is with potential victims and they capitalize on it.

  89. August 29, 2012 8:27 am

    @Kris – Glad that our site could help you. After your meeting tomorrow, come back and let us know how it went and how your friend responds when you say no.

  90. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    August 29, 2012 8:51 am

    @Amthrax and @Kris: wow, if even one person would think twice not join LIFE because of stopping in to this Amthrax site, and this thread, too 🙂 then it’s been worth the labor, eh? Now, if someone out there could just get my son out of it before it’s too late for monumental heartbreak and financial loss.

  91. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    August 29, 2012 10:49 am

    @webelieved etal: I think I finally realized, just today, what’s really grating me about this LIFE/team (as Dan Hawkins writes it) organization (besides lying about the financial “dream”, of course). If the 8Fs (repeated here in case anyone can’t remember them all–these were taken directly from the ship’s wheel for the comp plan booklet–and i’m confused, but there’s really only 7 Fs shown on the wheel spokes):

    LIFE– (center of the wheel)
    FAITH
    FAMILY
    FINANCES
    FRIENDS
    FREEDOM
    FOLLOWING
    FUN (the above 7 are the spokes of the ship wheel)
    FITNESS [editor’s note: the original comment failed to mention this]
    _____________________________
    For me, if it were changed to the following with a few additions:

    CHRISTIAN LIFE
    CHRISTIAN FAITH
    CHRISTIAN FAMILY
    CHRISTIAN FRIENDS
    CHRISTIAN FREEDOM
    CHRISTIAN FOLLOWING
    CHRISTIAN FUN
    FULL FINANCES DISCLOSED
    FULL STRUCTURE/IDEOLOGY DISCLOSURE
    ______________________

    Then, I’d “get it”- I don’t think I’d have as big of a “beef” here. THEN, people getting into it would have their eyes open from the getgo. And the issue of proselytizing or using Christianity in a distateful (at times) way is a moot point. You’d know up front if you wanted to get into it, you know? Some poeple might want to get in, just for the sense of community, as long as they know they are likely going to be in the 50 to 96%tiles of those not getting into it, expecting to make moolah. If it were this way, I think I’d still have my son in my life—nothing to do with religion or Christianity per se—but if he’d have chosen to join something up front, with ideologies and methodologies, etc., explained, don’t think the rift would have occured.

    [editor’s note: updated comment to reflect the correct 8F’s]

  92. webelieved permalink
    August 29, 2012 11:04 am

    That is why it is destructive. They decieve people in contacting, put out the bait of financial freedom, which is a lie for most. They don’t tell you up front their political and religous views and agenda. They also use deceptive controlling practices ie: information control, us vs them doctrine, etc. This is very unhealthy for anyone involved.. They take away critical thinking ability with their use of undue influence.
    . By the way the other F was fitness= which was for MV. interesting they took it off?

  93. webelieved permalink
    August 29, 2012 11:06 am

    People get in the group believing one thing and are pulled through to the other. Many people would say no if they listed it the way you did. That is why they don’t do it. They want anyone who will spend their money. It really is sick.

  94. webelieved permalink
    August 29, 2012 11:12 am

    In cult studies they call it the Bait and Switch. You don’t get what you signed up for. No ethical group has to hide info, tells you not to talk to people who leave, controls so much of ones time. Has you listening to hours of indoctrination. It would be unnecessary. Can you imagine the Rotary club making you spend your whole life with them? That would be wierd and yet this is what happens to followers in LIFe. Can you imagine a company you were selling windows for telling you to tell people we don’t sell anything, and then telling you there is a need for you to listen to hours of cds a day? NO Way, you would run. But the process is done so slowly and methodically by the time you are doing all of these things they no longer seem weird to a recruit, like they would have had they been told they would be asked to do all of this up front when they were contacted. This is all part of the deception. If they listed it all on paper when showing the plan along with the failure rates people would run. They would say I cannot afford to spend 1000 dollars a month, work 6 nights a week, after working my job, to run a business that i have a 97% chance of not making it to the top. OR that they can take it whenever they want. Of course they would never say this as their business and income would fall in the toilet!

  95. webelieved permalink
    August 29, 2012 11:16 am

    Can you imagine a window salesman calling and setting up an appointment and not telling you what he is selling and what company he works for? No way. But in Team/LIFE this is taught to deceive people until they are hooked on the hoopla and brainwashing. They don’t tell you all the costs they just try to get one to the next meeting that is coming up with the poobah leader. Then he can point to his income, his material goods, his car. All the while the prospect most likely has no clue that most of the room has been sitting in these same meetings for years watching basically the same 7 guys make money while the majority are not, many after years. But hey they still believe in someday.

  96. webelieved permalink
    August 29, 2012 11:23 am

    Followers were even told when to clap, laugh etc by the Team/life office. It is ridiculous. There is an article somewhere on this site! How bizarre is that! Not in the real world. People stand up and clap for the speakers and treat them like they are famous or something. They do the same for recognition when people hit new levels they walk across stage and everyone stands and claps. It is surreal and feels good to people and the PC know it. I will tell you I have seen more than one leader fake levels by volume loading to hit the next level to create recognition, because they were desperate to make it look like it was working. Everything they do is directed by the PC so I have no doubt they were told to do it. Deception again. So everyone like your son will sit in the audience believing in the business, and questioning what they are doing wrong because this group moved on. When in reality, this group of leaders bought thousands of dollars of product to throw in their garage and some sold some back to their down-line as i was told!!! It really is disturbing the things they have been doing these past few years.

  97. August 29, 2012 11:44 am

    Can you take a photo of the comp. plan booklet? I doubt that they would remove fitness from the 8F’s.

  98. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    August 29, 2012 12:25 pm

    Oh, hells bells!! MY MISTAKE!! CAN AMTHRAX GO AND FIX MY PRIOR POST AND ADD IT? webelieved: did I forget fitness? Here it is again, and I am looking right at it.
    LIFE as the center of the ship wheel
    then, starting from the 6pm position and going clockwise:
    FOLLOWING
    FREEDOM
    FRIENDS
    FUN
    FAITH
    FAMILY
    FINANCE
    FITNESS
    —————
    About your other posts: all I can say is: yup, to all of them, eh?

    About fitness: did ya see the article on the Beatles and the guru? I had to laugh when one of the Beatles wanted to leave the guru’s grip over a veggie diet–LOL!! So much for that aspect of ‘fitness’…..

  99. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    August 29, 2012 12:28 pm

    @amthrax: see last post to webelieved I just made re: word “FITNESS”. AND: can you go to my original long post listing the 8 Fs and fix it, i.e., add it to both the initial listing of them and then add it to the bottom one I’d like to see from that company? (and remove my statement where I say it’s confusing ’cause it looks like 7F’s?) I’d hate to throw any other newbies off-track! I looked at that dang ships wheel at least a dozen times when I was typing, and I STILL missed ‘Fitness’……so sorry; did not mean to lead anyone astray.

  100. August 29, 2012 12:43 pm

    I corrected the original comment. No need to moderate the subsequent comments. Moving along now…

  101. August 29, 2012 7:35 pm

    Interesting that Christ feeding others was brought up. In one of His 37 recorded miracles, He feeds 5000 people with 2 fish and 5 loaves of bread. His sole pupose was most certainly not just to meet their physical needs. In fact, His purpose was to show them, through miracles, that He was the Messiah and they were to believe in Him. But He never focused merely on the physical needs of man, for He even called Himself the “Bread of Life”. Their physical needs was always secondary to (or were used to point out) their spiritual needs

    Personally, I feel if an organization was “making somebody pray a prayer” in order to get a free meal, I’d say they are missing the boat, and most likely really aren’t ministering to a person’s spiritual needs. But I’d say that’s different from asking others to sit and hear a message for some food. If a person’s heart is so hard that they refuse a free meal because some pastor wanted to tell them about Jesus, I’d say that person needs a good lesson on “don’t bite the hand that feeds you”, or “beggars can’t be choosers”. It certainly isn’t indicative of “forcing” someone to believe something or even “undue influence” on them. (For an example of “forcing” someone to believe something, just visit any Muslim dominated country and denounce Islam and see how far that gets ya…I wonder if there will be any “undue influence” there…that should bring some perspective here)
    Now, perhaps that person who just can’t stomach some prosletyizing with their FREE meal should just mozy on down to the secular soup kitchen for some grub…oh wait…lemme guess…there wasn’t one…hmmm…

    So the reason I even bring all this up is not to be contentious. (That last paragraph really did have some tongue in the cheek there). But really, I do see parallels all throughout these discussions between Orrin who is almost being made out to be a Messiah-like figure and the real Christ whom Orrin claims of knowing but shows no signs of being anything like.
    And this is perhaps the most frustrating thing for me in all of this. Because Orrin and his crooked business is so intertwined with his charitable and cultural goals (of which I stand in agreement with him on – for the most part), when his scam is seen clearly, one almost has this feeling of wanting to throw it ALL away, even the good with the bad. But I think it would be wrong, and even dangerous, to do that. I, personally, think it’s fruitful to have discussions where we separate the good from the bad. I think it helps people.

    It helps the spiritually young christian who is just finding out that Orrin and co are actually very bad people, but this person maybe came to Christ in this organization (I’ve seen this story more than once). Now, how does this person keep from throwing the baby out with the bath water once they realize Team is corrupt? Well, to hear a fellow believer on here untangle the right from the wrong, the good from the bad could just maybe help that young christian keep from throwing out what has benefited him spiritually and eternally and then he can discard the rest. How important a goal that should be, esp for those who see the deeper elements of what is really going on here in this biz.
    It also helps the believer who’s faith hasn’t been shaken but isn’t quite able to really articulate or separate the poison from truth. They know Team is wrong but they juuuuuust can’t figure out how to dictate that to others. Well, here they can learn these differences and can share them with their loved ones and friends who may still be in or are considering Team.

    This is how I see what at least my approach to this whole debacle should be. If even one person escapes the clutches of this cult and yet still maintains a hold of Truth after all of it, why, that’s a reason to rejoice!!

  102. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    August 29, 2012 8:16 pm

    @mattjer22: each and every one of us is allowed to have our own belief system, that’s for sure.

    You brought up a good point, though, about someone who actually FINDS their faith in LIFE/team (as Hawkins writes the name)….and then only to crash later in the confusion of what they now believe to be pure goodness but facing almost the opposite in what’s going on around them in the money scheme, etc.—that’s the sadness of it all–what a horrible conundrum for the individual to have found their Faith and then, down the road, the coming to terms with the lies and deception that came part ‘n parcel with it from LIFE methodologies..

    Even Eric Sheibeler in Merchants of Deception kept meeting up with nagging dichotomies of what he knew his faith was and should be to him, and what it was turning into as he grew to Emerald Distributor status. Point: even steadfast Christians could be shaken, so what about the poor person celebrating the joy of a new Faith? (You know where I stand—but I am not heartless and, of course, I am an ex-Catholic, so I understand what it was like all of those decades ago)

    As for the rest of it—big, sincere smile—you and I could probably have our own debate blog somewhere else here on wordpress—so I’m not saying anything or else I’ll have Amthrax on my heinie like I did on another thread. today— 🙂 ))))))

  103. Former Round Table permalink
    August 30, 2012 8:33 am

    I was actually one of the people who came to Christ and Christianity because of the Team, and specifically because of Orrin and Laurie Woodward. Ironically it was our Christian beliefs that led us to finally leave the Team and the income. Once we realized that Orrin (and Laurie) were preaching one thing but doing something very different, we were done. For all their talk about integrity, God first, and doing the right thing, they sure do just the opposite.

    I am so sad for those people who only see what’s on stage and don’t have the ability to see the truth. If Orrin’s actions — all of them — were brought out in to the light of day, he would not have ANY followers. Not even Brady or Marks.

  104. webelieved permalink
    August 30, 2012 10:33 am

    I have had my faith in people shaken tremendously because of this business. I find myself at times questioning my faith because of this group. I am the person you speak of wisdom. I want to now find the answers on my own. God has been there for me through this and I believe there is one, just not sure about the religion part. These people give Christians a very bad name.

  105. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    August 30, 2012 10:40 am

    @Former Round Table: you know what struck me when I watched that old Mon Avie video I had reposted yesterday: right away, Woodward started praising the Christian God heavily and to the side of the stage, first, I see a fancy car and THEN he launched into how they’d been so blessed, so very very very very blessed ad nauseum (in the material world) that Laurie was NOW going to get the fancy horse ranch, etc., that she’d been wishing for Now, don’t get me wrong, I’m not against rich Christians or rich HIndus or rich Atheists, etc.—what I’m against is the undertone of “we tried hard enough; we believed hard enough—and look at the earthly rewards we reaped off of the downline.” It gags even a runaway-Catholic :), so I can’t imagine what you thought after you found your Faith through them, and then got to see the dark side of them. Can you be more specific, though, and give an example, or is it that just, in general, you saw what was happening to the downline vs the upline?

  106. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    August 30, 2012 11:47 am

    @webelieved: gee, your prior post actually makes me feel very sad. I’m truly sorry–truly!!– you have had a foundational shake in your “religious dogma” portion of your belief system over what happened by being in the grips of Woodward etal, but maybe, for solace, then talking to someone of a non-denominational Church would help like the Congregational Church?

    I can only say: if I were a believer like you, then I would fight the emotional/intellectual fight to not capitulate into the ultimate loss of what comforts me (you), thereby inadevertently allowing schmucks like Woodward to win—because if they do win, it only adds to the flames of their deceipt. THEY are the ones who should fear an ultimate wrath of their God (if they are true believers)…you shouldn’t be a victim of losing your faith over THEM.

    You know, even Agnostics and some Atheists and Humanists believe there is a higher power in the universe—-otherwise, scientists wouldn’t be looking for “the God particle”—will we ever be able to figure out what could cause something the size of a photon to create the explosion that caused the universe to form? Probably not. What we choose to believe personally, is what “FAITH” is all about. It can’t be proven or disproven. One can only choose to say for themselves: it either does or does not exist.

    I think most of the mud-slinging here on earth among Christians is about the “dogma”…….how soon we forget that once, Catholic Popes ruled the civilized world and had murderous armies to wipe out those who dared to disagree, etc., and how that turned around by the 20th century, for example, such as in this country where we had a hard time getting to the point of even electing a very young Catholic president (JFK) for the first time. How soon we forget that even in the 20th century, we loved to “word persecute” between each other in our Christian religions (we did worse than that to black Americans, though, too)–like how foolish Catholics were made to feel over concepts of Limbo and Saints, etc., (articles exist about this phenomenon finally abating and a new focus starting since we’ve had more problems with the Middle East), or conversely, how people in, for example, my own family should not marry Lutherans.

    Orrin Woodward and company took the general Christian Faith tenets and painted a facade of devout, Christian Holiness over themselves as they surreptitiously robbed the downline masses—and of course, on the surface the Christian basic dogmas of any sect would seem to support their successes, because supposedly they used their “Godliness” to do it! A total bastardization of the best parts of Christianity.

    I hope you DON’T end up disillusioned and lose what gave you comfort because of MLM fallacies and corruption. If your Jesus was here now: he’d be turning over a few tables of coin in the mansions of the MLM Pharisees, now, wouldn’t he?

  107. webelieved permalink
    August 30, 2012 2:40 pm

    Oh I agree with you. It is hard to belong to a church when similar tactics are used there. And also when some of the principles taught are the same as taught in some churches. Also to
    see people kill others over religion doesn’t make sense to me, if one is a true believer. I thought God is love? On a side note I do beleive there is evil in the world and you can’t ignore it. I just really need to dig deep on my own. Having another man tell me what to believe won’t work anymore. I put Orrin and his cronies between me and God (my gut,my conscience) That isn’t going to happen again. Everyone has an agenda and some are purer then others. I believe in the usefulness of churches, pastors and religion etc. Because I have been abused in a so called Christian group of people, I think I need a break to heal.

  108. webelieved permalink
    August 30, 2012 2:43 pm

    I think what they do to people is spiritual rape of the soul. It is very traumatic and hard to get over. Being used and abused is what it feels like.

  109. webelieved permalink
    August 30, 2012 2:46 pm

    Round Table- If Brady or Marks were so Christian wouldn’t there consciences have been poked by now. I don’t think they know everything but haven’t they seen enough and chose money over God? They are participating in a lot of bad things! Are not there consciences seared?

  110. webelieved permalink
    August 30, 2012 2:46 pm

    Their

  111. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    August 30, 2012 4:02 pm

    webelieved: well, I think by now you guys have answered your own questions, eh? That the facade of Christianity in this MLM is just that: a superficial facade. And no, it doesn’t mean that I, personally think ‘good people’ don’t get sucked into it; in fact, I think it’s people like you guys–(or anyone with a conscience, be it atheistic, agnostic, christian, hindu, buddhist or whatever, but) in this case, we’re talking Christians….end up on blog sites like this.when their conscience of faith makes them uneasy.

  112. Cali permalink
    August 30, 2012 5:37 pm

    How could Brady and Marks not know everything? They are so close, does OW keep things from them as well?

  113. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    August 30, 2012 8:44 pm

    Examination of more sociopolitical history of the LIFE Poohbahs: publications: (Guzaardo has a 3 part history piece; and I found a leadership admiration piece by Chris Brady) And remember: you do NOT have to read this; and also remember: it is LIFE that prompted this post after a long evening of reading, sometimes in disbelief–reading more treatises on their interest in sociopolitical/economic/religious/philosophical history from the Romans through today.
    ____________________________________

    G’s background info: continuation in his part 2 of his 3 part series of Leadership Blogs has the basic belief/assumption which is:
    ______________________________________
    the Roman Empire fell solely because of moral decay (never mind that their military/supply reach went too far to be sustainable and unaccounted for resistance of peasantry of foreign lands, among other reasons, too) and G carries through a common theme centered around concepts of cause and effect, such as moral decay = fall of civilization. (I don’t necessarily disagree with what happens in total moral decay, but one needs to look at the whole picture–and one needs to define “moral”)
    ______________________________________

    In part 3, he will state all principles are TRUTH–(got a few beefs with that generalized statement, but, oh, well…)
    ____________________________________

    In part 2, I had to chuckle when he was talking about Alexis de Tocqueville (a French politician who came and toured America and her penal systems in the 1830’s)……and this Frenchman was quoted as to what his view was on Christianity and liberty being very intertwined in America to the point where the two seemed indistinguishable vs how it was in France.
    _______________________________________

    Um….I noticed that the Frenchman was likely NOT shown, nor considered it if he WAS shown, that we were still pushing the Native American Indians westward and/or onto limited lands we stole from them, etc.

    And remember: a common thread through Woodward’s and Guzzardo’s etal writings seems to be, at least as an undercurrent: we are NOT teaching history properly or with the ultimate ‘truth’ anymore–and it’s leading to our downfall.
    ________________________________________

    (Well, maybe they have a point—just look at how hard it was to realize the truth about the annihilating effects we committed on native peoples because we “Westernized/Religicized” white folks thought was our divine right to do in all of the Americas and in the formation of the British Empire, etc)
    ______________________________________

    Also got the impression that by quoting the Frenchie (among other things that are mentioned throughout this series, it was to then be extrapolated that this truly WAS the major “founding principle”, i.e., as a God TRUTH that the expansionist invasion into a foreign land was divinely ordained with a subsequent also-divinely inspired government) (we know full well from back in the day, that in reality ‘some men were created more equal than others’ and in their Faiths back then, they held that to be true)
    ____________________________________________
    Here’s what G forgot to tell you: Tocqueville (who since February 1848 had supported laws restricting political freedoms) approved the two laws voted immediately after the June 1849 days, which restricted the liberty of clubs and freedom of the press (sad smile)
    __________________________________________

    CHRIS BRADY: He’s got a leadership blog amazingly eulogizing Samual Clemens…….(OMG! as they say.)…..ol’ Mark Twain was about as Atheistic in attitude as he could get for his era (he was downright shockingly RUDE about it, actually) (but was forced to be a superficial Presbyterian or probably endure a public execution-of-sorts). (Tongue-in-cheek: next I’m going to see eulogizing on, you got it: Dr. Suess who was also an avowed Atheist……okay, okay, Amthrax…don’t smack me…back on point….)

    ____________________________________________

    WHAT’S MY POINT? Well, I don’t think that all of the doctors, lawyers, candlestick makers, engineers, auto mechanics, physical therapists, etc……….take enough into consideration before they turn their underlying doctrines loose on the inductees in LIFE and the entire WWW—and the sick, sad, sorry hoot of it all is: it’s just another ploy to get you to buy their claptrap over and over and over…so THEY can build more mansions and buy more jet ski setups, boats, build horse farms and take swanky vacations!!.

    Or else they know it’s all BS and they’re just trying to use academia as THE LATEST VERSION OF SMOKE AND MIRRORS? Why the hell do they do these things? Is it to keep the “leadership” bullshit flowing on a monthly basis? They feel they have to produce more and more philosphical meanderings to improve member lives? Someone tell me! I find the whole thing so bizarre (not saying I disagree with everything they write—am just so surprised to see this in a hidden pyramid as they rape their downlines!
    _____________________________
    Sorry this is long….in my humble opinion: people considering going in to LIFE really do to know where LIFE’s foundational, philosophical doctrines/behind-the-scene indoctrination spews from….well, at least if they haven’t read the dismal percentage stats on making money that is 🙂

  114. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    August 31, 2012 6:41 am

    MORE EXAMPLES OF CREAITNG UNDUE INFLUENCE BY THE DISSEMINATION OF SKEWING ACTUAL HISTORICAL EVENTS OF AN ERA:

    This is what some in the Dan Hawkins LIFE/Team-STEALTH hierarchy via Matt Mielke’s leadership are reading (scroll down on the web page to testimonials when you get there; you’ll see stuff on their Turbo 25rs (The Bruner couple), etc., and a big blurb on Independence Day which is where the data is. (note: “Turbo 25rs” defined: those who have a following of at least 50 people in LIFE)

    http://mattmielke-excellenceinlifethroughleadership.com/

    Book inspiring some of Hawkins’ leadership : The Five Thousand Year Leap: Twenty-Eight Great Ideas That Are Changing the World is a book that was published in 1981 by the anti-communist and conservative Mormon author Cleon Skousen. In essence: this man believed the US Government is the Christian God’s Government.
    _____________________
    Please use the hyperlink below to get the criticisms of using such a philosophy when the foundational assumptions maybe be rather skewed in the first place: Simply put: go to something as simple as Wikipedia and see the other side of the philosphical story and more cases of misinterpreting historical fact:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Five_Thousand_Year_Leap

  115. webelieved permalink
    August 31, 2012 8:28 am

    Age of Wisdom- Keep them coming. I can tell you must be reading this site from top to bottom. 🙂

  116. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    August 31, 2012 8:54 am

    webelieved: I’ll tell you something, though…it’s not easy to do this (reading and cross-checking, etc.)…because these writers never really tell you ‘up front’ what their own premises are, i.e., what they hold to be true. So, as I read, and they jump from one so-called empirical truth to the next…I actually have to stop and go get a book or snoop online to make SURE that the history I thought I had been taught, and events I witnessed in the 20th century, really happened–which leads me to a kind sad: lol.

    Why is this happening? I think, because they are pulling people in from all sectors, and they have ‘leadership requirements’, it’s like people just latch onto something and develop it because it’s the ‘Blog of the Month Blurb Club’……know what I mean?

    It COULD end up to be a frightening new philosophy of everything from economics to conspiracy theories if it ran unchecked….thank goodness for the mathematics and ‘laws’ of saturation!

  117. webelieved permalink
    August 31, 2012 9:03 am

    These guys are legends in their own minds, for sure.

  118. webelieved permalink
    August 31, 2012 9:55 am

    Really scary. They have a hidden political and religious agenda. They don’t tell prospects this up front. Instead they use a business and income promises to entice people into the group and then take from them, brainwashing them along the way to work for the financial gain of the top, in my opinion.

  119. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    August 31, 2012 3:44 pm

    I AM SO SICK OF THE SNOT-NOSED PUNKS AT LIFE/team THAT THIS TIME: I could puke!!

    Which sentence of Matt Mielke’s below (in Hawkins’s line) would really CLASSICALLY PISS OFF a 62 yr old woman whose female ancestors fought for the right for women to vote in this country, and who, herself had been the victim of unequal pay for equal work, and who was told that she could NOT even take auto mechanics in high school, BECAUSE she was female:

    “To say I was confused at that period of my life would be an understatement. Years of propaganda from my college days shouted, “Men move over, it’s time to let others lead!” So I did. I let my wife bring home the majority of the money. I changed a diaper as well as anyone. I kept the house clean. **Meanwhile, my wife heard a message to take on the responsibility of what men neglected over the decades and generations”** (by Matt Mielke, 8/24/11 The New Beginning-Leadership to the Masses blog)

    WHAT A SICK TWISTED DISTORTION OF THE TRUTH. HIS WIFE DREAMED OF AND BECAME A DOCTOR! There was a time women could barely get IN TO schools for that! Well, he’s got her suckered in real good, too. And he had a good job, too! (Nothing wrong with staying home to take care of your kids—if that’s what fulfills you completely as an adult female–but I am sick and tired of them making it sound twisted, as if it is unnatural!!

    “Propaganda from his college days”?!! Paleeeese!!

    What the hell!! These people are hell-bent on rewriting late 19th-20th Century American History! Next, they will explain away the economics of slavery, too. Bunch of freak zealots that will try to convince you up is down and down is up. What the hey! We’re down Alice’s rabbit hole.

    Just wait: wait and see what happens to the gullible (not stupid, but ignorant) young women getting in to this…WHAT will they have left after saturation is reached?

    [Editor’s note: added blockquote for readability]

  120. webelieved permalink
    August 31, 2012 3:59 pm

    Oh you better believe there is an aire on Team that women should submit to their husbands and not lead the family, not take care of the family financially. You ARE down Alices rabbit hole! The girls that are leaders are treated differently then the guys, just ask Raquel Peters. The men are expected, forced, to step up, even if they don’t want to. Look at Richard Fisher. This whole thing is just so sad. This system beats people up for the strengths they have, wreaks havoc on one’s confidence and belief systems, tells the guys to step up and be a man.
    Funny how some leaders on Stage speak this crap and yet have sent their wives back to work!

    I believe women should get equal pay, equal respect, equal choices in their lives, the same as men have. These guys put women under men using religious doctrine, and say it is a place not to be used to abuse by the men, but a place of biblical protection for the women. Now I don’t see anything wrong if that is what one believes but to take it into the business world is ridiculous!
    More funny, is you better believe their are women leaders in TEam/LIfe who behind the scenes, really wear the pants in the family! Everyone knows it, even their husbands! LOL!

    Did you know that you can indoctrinate people easier when you confuse them, and that is exactly what they do. Speak out of both sides of their mouths. Change history, only share part of the truth. Sick!

  121. webelieved permalink
    August 31, 2012 4:04 pm

    Wisdom- I wonder how the Mielke’s retired? Their teams were not that big when they retired. I heard this from a very reliable source. Must’ve gotten a deal from Orrin or Hawkins?

    Of course when you have a good education and job, Orrin uses it to nth degree to promote the business! Look at Meilke’s she was a dr and now they retired from their jobs with the team lie. Puke… Of course you will never know the special deals, etc they most likely got, just like the Hawkins and the rest.

  122. webelieved permalink
    September 1, 2012 3:18 am

    I loved the comment “i let my wife earn the majority of the income”! Are you serious…..you let her? Give me a break!
    “men neglected over the decades” taking resposibility?
    This is so twisted and sick.
    I believe the majority of men do take care of their families. I also know that cults depend on black and white thinking. Us vs them etc. There is no room for grey area where critical thinking lies. Men are taught they are losers if their wife is working. However they never talk about how that happened over history. It wasn’t because men were losers, had no character and made their women go to work. But that is the message they want followers to believe. Why? Because they Life team are the savior to that problem. Doing their business will help you be a man and get your wife home where she belongs!
    The hypocrisy is that when some of the leaders’ businesses crashed these past few years, I heard they sent their wives back to work! Lol! Guess they want it both ways. Sick.

  123. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    September 1, 2012 4:04 am

    webelieved: 20th Century: WWll: “Rosie the Riveter”……….we didn’t have enough men. Women found out they COULD do what men do, too. Of course, I come from a family where women since 1915 always worked, outside the home. I hate to say this (probably have people jumping all over my heinie here)….but this whole LIFE organization is like. a bunch of rabid truly “far out” political right wingers in this country—am talking extremist level. that almost appears evangelical in the extremism.

    Women: you do NOT want to go back to where it’s expected you do nothing but stay ‘barefoot, pregnant and in the kitchen’–and eventually, this WILL happen if LIFE continues for too long.

    I can’t believe LIFE is trying to destroy our decades of hard work! (If one’s goal in life is to have babies and stay home, that’s fine—but having the RIGHTS and CULTURAL SOCIAL ACCEPTABILITY to get out should not go away and let me tall ya: this is part of what LIFE wants as they make their Machieavellian plans to take us back to the American Revolution and start over.

    These morons better start reading genealogical history just in their own families! Women were property! They could be beaten like horses! Livin’ in the early days was NOT romantic except, again, perhaps for the ultra wealthy. (My mother founded a local genealogical society for a discrete group of European immigrants here in the 1970s–and I did a review of records and one sees a lot of violence against women which was just “standard fare” back in the 1840’s-1850’s [the main time period studied])

    Do young women getting into LIFE want to do create a situation where eventually women have regressed to this and have this happen to you, like it did to me the summer I graduated high school: (my father, who was born in 1910 is speaking–and he truly believed this and my Mom almost clocked him):

    “Girls your age do not need to own cars.”

    Do the LIFEr chicks really wanna go back to those more pervasive, repressive attitudes?!

    To me as a woman, this would be a fate worse than death. I can’t believe women actually find LIFE membership attractive, just because of this!!! (egad, webelieved: this one concept these freaks are bastardizing makes me just irate!)

    Tell me more about your experiences with this sexism…

  124. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    September 1, 2012 4:30 am

    @webelieved: PS: [I know you know this stuff already–am just blowing off the stench of LIFE steam] I can see why a struggling young couple (this would NOT include the Matt Mielke family which would be “X’r Yuppies” in socioeconomic status) would love to see an auto mechanic and a day care operation wife (such as Policy Council Dan Hawkins and wife) become filthy rich and lead the good life [never mind the morality in taking money from downliners who may be struggling!], and unfortunately, be a “draw” for other struggling folks coming in, BUT there are premises and assumptions being instilled in a subversive manner when one reads their blog commentaries across couples and time in the history of these MLMr bigwigs.

    You know what, though: if a couple like the Mielke family DID fail to make enough money in LIFE…THEY have the college educations and degrees and certifications to go right back to work—she’s a doctor and he’s a pharmacist or something, right?

    This would be a LOT different than what is going to happen, for example, in my son’s family—she was a higher earner. This means, he needs to draw her in and they need to REALLY go nuts trying to earn money from LIFE so that they can start to climb up to the Hawkins couple. We know they haven’t got a hope in hell of achieving it—-and THEN all hell is unleashed in our family. And my grandchildren are NOT going to be the better for it, i.e., of their parents being involved in LIFE!

    This scares me….I can’t sleep anymore….I’ve been in and out of mild congestive heart failure….and we’ve been abandoned…….it’s like they died or something….we feel like family died and there was no funeral. Make sense?

  125. webelieved permalink
    September 1, 2012 6:13 am

    Oh it makes total sense. You ate right the people who do this crap instead of college, higher education are the ones that will be hurting majorly. They have nothing to fall back on. The team/life is highly far right/extreme. Hers the deal, they don’t tell women up front these things. Again if they did, people would RUN! Nothing is up front. It is told to you slowly based on where you are at. You are given cds that fit your situation to slowly grab you, and change your belief system. Ie if you are a Dr you will get cds of Meilke, Oettinger (nurse practioner) Edwards (Chiropractor). If you are a Mechanic, blue collar, you will get a cd of Dan telling his story of how the Team, now he will lie and say Life, saved him from his wretched life. Everything is gamed. Manipulation.

  126. webelieved permalink
    September 1, 2012 6:19 am

    They have many stories on cd to fit many different situations. Of you are a lady building it on your own you will get cds of Renew Oettinger. You would have also heard of Raquel Peters back in the day. These ladies were huge business builders
    but were definitly treated diffferently then couples. Couples did more seminars, they were treated better by upline. They were given rewards based on being couples not results or effort. Raquel was passed up many times for rewards, even though she was kicking her uplines behinds. Many times downline couples hosted speakers, got time with top leaders and she didn’t because her husband wasn’t building. Of course if she brought something up about fairness she was told she was prideful in a round about way. Sick hey?

  127. webelieved permalink
    September 1, 2012 6:22 am

    That is how cults operate. It’s based on favoritism, loyalty, and conformity. You get the rewards based on how well you follow and dont make waves. If you are truly a leader, and think for yourself, they don’t want you. They strictly want follower
    s, yes men/women. But they say they want leaders. Isn’t it disturbing?

  128. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    September 1, 2012 8:31 am

    @webelieved: well, then, I’d LOVE to hear Oettinger’s CDs…..anyone out here have one?

    About the “leader” concept conglomeration of pooh-pooh they use to get you in…yeah, that may work when these guys are going into companies and trying to blow a little sunshine up the butts of the actual workers of corporate America for a 1-time session or so, BUT…

    they’ve carried it over into this hidden pyramid scheme, whereby they “counsel” every aspect of your life to ensure their own brand of conformity in the indoctrination process—and the “rich get richer while the poorer get poorer”—which ironically, is exactly what Karl Marx called the “law of increasing poverty” in a capitalistic free market society (again, this points out the hypocrisy of Woodward etal claiming these very things about where we are now—and the hidden truth is: they are among the WORST offenders!! What a freakin’ hoot!).

    Okay: now I get it! My son was not only concerned about finances….he hollered that his CDs were “saving his marriage” —actually screamed that at me when I asked him to think twice about getting involved financially with LIFE. Gee, guess what CDs he had been given, eh?

  129. webelieved permalink
    September 1, 2012 10:15 am

    Yep if he confessed what his problems in life were to his upline, they will hand pick a cd for him and a book.

  130. webelieved permalink
    September 1, 2012 11:29 am

    Is was wondering if your son’s wife is involved? If not I would definitly show her this site before he sucks her into the group doctrine.

  131. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    September 1, 2012 12:33 pm

    webelieved: not sure if she is or not–talked to her today…don’t think so…am keeping under the radar here….

  132. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    September 1, 2012 1:57 pm

    Are ya kiddin’ me? Remember when I had posted a long one yesterday about some philosophy from Clousen who (was used as an example in a LIFE blog) ended up to be a Mormon (nothing wrong with Mormons–just to refresh minds)…….okay, well on Dan Hawkins’s blog page, he’s touting stuff written by Orrin Woodward, AGAIN, but this time about Oliver Demille….who just happened to supposedly study under Clousen (a Mormon with certain world views, too). Demille has definitive political views in a book called 1913 and on education.

    Now, this is important, because LIFErs would like to see his educational philosophy and style…instead of me going on and on….here’s a link to a website abou the OTHER side of DeMille (part of the fascination with Demille was weaseling a way into home schooling and it is called the Thomas Jefferson Education Method). Here’s the joke of it all: TJ himself had your average education.

    Oliver Demille: “George Wythe University” and
    “Thomas Jefferson Education”

    http://themakingofauniversity.blogspot.com/2009/01/diploma-demille.html
    _______________________________________
    And there’s criticism from a family who actually DID home schooling, too, right on wordpress.
    ______________________________________

    Or if that isn’t enough for ya: how about this from this next website:

    http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2008/05/a-thomas-jefferson-education/
    ____________________________

    A Quote from DeMille; “The New World Order, which George Bush has made part of everyday vocabulary, is world government. It is sponsored by Satan and his followers, whose power is based on secret combinations, secret oath-bound societies, world financial institutions, New Age religious organizations, and a number of global movements including humanism, communism, socialism, fascism, nazism, democratic socialism, feminism, Marxism, environmentalism, and monopolistic capitalism.

    Or it would, but after publishing a book titled “Christ versus Satan: The New World Order,” he later decided that he had been mistaken and recanted.”
    ____________________________

    Egad: ol’ Orrin Woodward sure wants us to turn back the clock so he really CAN fix all of Westernized Culture, Education, Economics, etc. WOW!!

  133. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    September 1, 2012 2:00 pm

    correction to last quote of mine in prior post on Demille: Obviously, the last quoted statement is from the writer on that web page, not DeMille. DeMille’s quote ends after the word ‘capitalism’.

  134. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    September 1, 2012 2:07 pm

    LOL!! OMG!! NOW YA KNOW WHY WOODWARD LIKES DEMILLE’S SCHOOLING… check out the words inbetween the asterisk stars which I added.

    “Due to financial troubles, the college had to lay off its faculty in 2002. After a brainstorming session, a solution to the school’s financial situation was determined to be found in, according to the official history of the college, “three major concepts . . .

    : *****speaking, seminars, and products.”*********

    In other words, the college would continue to exist by making money off of selling its pedagogical vision, mostly to homeschoolers. Since developing this financing plan, GWC has achieved a modicum of growth and its financial distress has significantly decreased. ” (Author: Julie M. Smith)

    Source: http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2008/05/a-thomas-jefferson-education/

    Bwahahahahahahhahahaha!!! I bet Orrin was trying to get on faculty or some such megalomaniacal thing! Maybe sell HIS products, too!!

    DAN HAWKINS: ARE YOU REALLY THIS STUPID-O??? (to tout-spout this claptrap from your cult guru?)

  135. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    September 1, 2012 2:18 pm

    CORRECTION TO ABOVE POSTS: the ultra-conservative Mormon’s name is SKOUSEN (i.e., the 5000 Year Leap book, etc) , not Clousen….and DeMille was a protege of his….

    Here’s more for ya: and this time, even TV Personality, Glenn Beck got involved–skip the tea-party politics on Glenn Beck…just keep reading and Skousen and Demille are discussed

    http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2010/03/glenn-beck-constitution-tea-party

    More and more each day, we can see what the underlying indoctrinating philosophy of Woodward and LIFE/team, really is……….

  136. webelieved permalink
    September 1, 2012 3:48 pm

    Don’t forget the PC-Woodward, Brady and Marks all want to sell their books to the masses. I bet they make a LOT of dough off sending their books downline to the brainwashed, indoctrinated, captive audience they have. It would be great to see how much they’re making. I would bet not much goes into any profit sharing/LIef/Team pot for the followers/down-line. But hey they can raid the pockets of all and then when this whole scam of a deal implodes they will be ultra weatlhy and call themselves bestselling authors. LOL!

  137. webelieved permalink
    September 1, 2012 3:56 pm

    If you get along with your son’s wife and she isn’t keen on the Team, I would definitely show her the documentation on this site sooner rather then later. If she gets involved, there will be very little hope of getting them out for a while. In my experience though usually one of the two in a couple are negative about the deal. They usually don’t like the spouse being gone and all the money going out the door. This causes a lot of stress on marriages. Followers personalities changes, they start spending a lot of money on meetings, cds, books, they are gone all of the time- nights and weekends and they usually become emotionally unavailable to the family and the spouse. It is not unusual for this to cause a huge rift in the spousal relationship. This could work to your advantage. I would recommend you feel out the situation. She may become a helper in your quest for his freedom of mind .
    Of course all of this is just my humble opinion.

  138. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    September 1, 2012 3:56 pm

    webelieved: I simply cannot believe what I am finding out here….the threads are starting to come together…Ain’t it interesting that NOW they are smoochin’ up to Mormon authors and educators at this point in time, i.e., election year?

  139. webelieved permalink
    September 1, 2012 3:57 pm

    Soon his mentor will become like his second wife. I don’t think she will like that. My spouse hated it. Hated all the people involved and what they were doing to our family.

  140. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    September 1, 2012 3:59 pm

    webelieved: um, yeah…tomorrow is Sunday…it’s the holiday….she wanted to do something simple for herself for a few hours tomorrow……but I am taking both kids while she is gone (first time seeing the grandkids since the LIFE debacle!). I’d like to know where the heck Pappa is….hmmmmm….this is all so absurd….I don’t think she’d get involved, though. She’s kind of touchy–I can’t come out and pry…I have to wait until she get really fed up and comes to me.

  141. webelieved permalink
    September 1, 2012 4:02 pm

    I would bet a million someone like Republican, Bob Mc Quwen ( not sure on spelling), will be coming to speak at the major this fall before the election, to sway or solidify voters/followers in the group.

  142. webelieved permalink
    September 1, 2012 4:06 pm

    You could tell her, I found out some interesting things about the group so and so is in. And see what she says. If she is negative tell her what you learned and your concerns, if she is positive about the group just say you found out Orrin is a Baptist….or whatever. Then blow it off.
    I would bet if she is concerned, she has no one to tell. Tell her you are really concerned about the changes in your sons personality and wondering if she noticed anything. Just some thoughts…

  143. webelieved permalink
    September 1, 2012 4:07 pm

    I am really glad you get to see the kids. If they are old enough they will know how momma feels. 🙂

  144. webelieved permalink
    September 1, 2012 4:07 pm

    It is sad to me you cannot just be straight up with her. But I understand, trust me.

  145. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    September 1, 2012 4:19 pm

    here’s what she said a few weeks ago: “if it helps him to cope better, that would be good”—-obviously, you can tell she doesn’t have a clue as to the financial entailment….so I sent her something on how hard it is to make any money–from the actual comp plan book—but she hasn’t said anything. Believe me…….if the finances take a dive, I think THATs when she’ll say something, OR if she nixes it to him herself, that might do it, too—’cause then the fighting may start?

  146. Speak Your Truth permalink
    September 1, 2012 6:26 pm

    This sounds almost identical to what LIEf is. No surprise orrin and his yesmen are promoting Oliver Demille. But what is the most interesting find is Oliver DeMille’s new book 1913 was published by “Signature Management Team, LLC” and what do ya know that is the Team who is the publisher! You can find it here:

    http://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/1913-oliver-demille/1111790470

    Would this be double dippin… Make money by publishing it and then Orrin is has/going to make a ton of cash off that book, that is/has been forced down on book of the month and then every copy sold after that. But they aren’t about the “money”…riight.

  147. webelieved permalink
    September 1, 2012 6:36 pm

    Speak- GREAT FIND! I looked on Amazon and it says the publisher of 1913 OLIVER DEMILLE is OBSTACLES PRESS!
    http://www.amazon.com/1913-Oliver-DeMille/dp/B008I3OI18/ref=sr_1_10?ie=UTF8&qid=1346552853&sr=8-10&keywords=oliver+demille

    imagine that ….. OBSTACLES PRESS owned/and or operated by none other then Chris Brady (and Orrin Woodward?) …. and you wonder why they promote his book?…$$$$$$$.
    And you are right Speak, Signature Management TEAM IS the company that USED TO SIGN OUR CHECKS in Amway and Monavie!
    More money in the PC pockets! Maybe the Morgans should sue Orrin for having more that one business, maybe HE should lose his business like he stole theirs?…….WHAT A BUNCH OF HYPOCRITICAL CLOWNS! What’s good for the goose should be good for the gander but on TEAM….not….. HYPOCRITES!!!!

  148. Speak Your Truth permalink
    September 1, 2012 6:39 pm

    Here is some more quotes from the link you put in your post that I will add here for reference> http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2008/05/a-thomas-jefferson-education/

    Seems from these quotes it seems Oliver Demille’s seminar approach may also use of the bait & switch technique, which is most disturbing and sounds eerily familiar from my experience. It also according to this quote is being described as having the “feel of a MLM scheme” there was a commentor on that link that had said something very similar after attending a “homeschooling” conference that had Mr. Demille as a speaker. No surprise …like attracts like.

    “What do these speakers, seminars, and products look like? You can’t go very long on a homechooling email list without seeing an announcement for the “Face to Face with Greatness” seminar, which costs $350. I have not attended one, but they have been described to me as having the feel of a MLM scheme: you attend a free seminar in someone’s home where no “nuts and bolts” are given but you are promised great insight if you attend the expensive conference locally, where you are promised greater insight if you attend another seminar at GWC . . .”

    “As far as materials, if you take a peek around the GWC bookstore, you will see that it bears little resemblance to a college bookstore but has the feel of a homeschool supply outlet. (I will say more about some of their materials later.)

    “While it appears that something like 90% of the TJE leaders and homeschoolers are LDS, specific LDS affiliation and references are not made and this has led at least one evangelical homeschooler to conclude that this is a marketing ploy since it is common knowledge that conservative Christians would not support a pedagogy developed by LDS and based on LDS thought. (I would note that I don’t think it quite fair to call TJE “based on LDS thought” but rather “based on a particular strain of LDS thought associated with people such as Cleon Skousen.”) Despite the fact that TJE claims no denominational affiliation, those interested in it eventually find out that is is an almost completely LDS enterprise.”

  149. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    September 1, 2012 6:47 pm

    Speak Your Truth….good work!!! Man o’ life….I sure wish some of us could communicate off of here and under the radar…(suddenly, I see myself all over BING searches on LIFE names I print in some of my posts)….I wonder…JUST WONDER…what’s really going on here…WOODY etal IS THE PUBLISHER?!!!!!!!! ARE YOU KIDDING ME???

    They are going to espouse right-political/religious wing DeMille and his mentor……why?……..to sell books? I think I just said the “F” word again (in disbelief).

    Let me reiterate: they are going to embed/teach this skewed pablum doctrine to unsuspecting young 20’s to 30-something singles/couples (mostly, that’s what I see on facebook albeit I’ve seen some older folks in the audiences) ………..to sell more paper product? Are ya freakin’ kiddin’ me???

    You know, I THOUGHT some of this stuff looked strange…and some of it started before it was really public as to which candidate would run for Pres. on the Repub side………well, looky here…NOW we have our answer.

    I wonder how many more we can find…do they have any other publishing LLCs? And HOW do we get a complete list of LLCs by the top 5 or 6 guys? I know there were partial lists on here, but…wondering about current.

    Well, I’ll be chiggered!!!! What you came up with finally made some sense for me! I could NOT keep up with how/why they were coming up with this stuff at times….

  150. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    September 1, 2012 7:09 pm

    THE PUBLISHER OF DEMILLE’S BOOK ENTITLED: 1913

    This Business is not BBB accredited
    Signature Management Team, LLC
    View Additional Phone Numbers

    4072 Market Place, Flint, MI 48507
    wendybranson “at” the-team.net
    http://www.the-team.biz

    __________________________
    AND HERE’S A BLURB FROM OUR FAVORITE “TEAM-SHE-VIK” , ORRIN WOODWARD:

    “My good friend and scholar Oliver DeMille, author of the bestseller Thomas Jefferson Education, is finishing up a fascinating book on the force shifts of 1913. Few people understand and explain the movements toward and away from freedom like DeMille. Simply put, he is humble enough to continue learning and intelligent enough to be a veritable genius. This is a potent combination for simplifying the concepts of freedom. Here is a portion of the introduction I wrote for DeMille’s instant classic.

    Oliver DeMille’s soon to be released book gives the background story of the founders intentions and the fatal force shifts that hinder our freedoms. In truth, the four force shifts described in DeMille’s new book are painful enough on their own, but disastrous when combined:

    1. The general welfare clause
    2. The Federal Reserve bill
    3. The income tax amendment
    4. The democratic election of senators

    America must turn back from the precipice and return to the path of freedom. DeMille’s book is a torch to carry on freedom’s path. Western Civilization needs more leaders like DeMille who are willing to learn, live, and share their stories of freedom. This book is essential reading, a primer of freedom or anyone desiring to live free. Let me close with one final thought from President Woodrow in his 1913 book The New Freedom……”

    http://orrinwoodwardblog.com/2012/02/23/oliver-demille-1913/
    __________________________________

    HELP…I AM YELLING HERE….I CAN’T BELIEVE WOODWARD IS GETTING HIS HIDDEN AGENDA OUT ON THE BACKS OF THE COMMON MAN AS HE ATTEMPTS TO INSTILL SUPPOSED ‘LEADERSHIP’ IN THEM………WHAT AN INTENT TO FRAUD!!!

    But dont’cha know: it’s all okay because the poor rubes in this MLM scheme actually think they are getting good, Christian value here.

  151. webelieved permalink
    September 1, 2012 7:17 pm

    I think we should comment on a
    Amazon and Barnes and Noble, perhaps his followers would want to know he’s being backed by mlms charlatans? Also on Amazon it says the publisher is Obstacles press! Chris Brady’s behind that one.

  152. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    September 1, 2012 7:21 pm

    Speak Your Truth: is Legacy, LLC , a publisher out of Florida his, too?

  153. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    September 1, 2012 7:48 pm

    Yes, Obstacles Press is in Flint Michigan AND Business Plus in NYC……they are both theirs…I checked out every single publication—LOL!!

  154. Speak Your Truth permalink
    September 1, 2012 8:31 pm

    Wisdom~

    If you like you could contact me through Amthrax; to chat off the radar. I thought Chris Brady was the sole owner of; “Obstacles Press, Inc.” but maybe not, or perhaps that changed, it appears from this link> http://www.amazon.com/dp/B004H1TLFI/ref=rdr_ext_sb_pi_sims_1 …to be a Partnership of Team. You can view their other books there too.

    You can see from these books they are all through this same publishing company, except for “Launching The Leadership Revolution” …I can’t remember but thought the First Edition was, but didn’t take the time to find that answer. I also didn’t take the time to find what “edition” that one is up to, but know it is a ridiculous amount.

    The Amazon link shows the others they are published from Obstacles Press, Inc.. I could but won’t, go into a whole thing on the “Obstacles” bobble head figurine haha..Seriously- a fictitious character that Chris Brady tried selling, ripping off the masses with something that had zero value for “business building.” *(Epic Failure..I don’t think anyone bought them, at least I never not even 1 sold) and for good reason! It was a worthless trinket that he was charging an outrageous price for! I don’t remember exactly but think it was around 40 Bucks! You could probably find this trinket and it’s outrageously over= priced on the web if you are interested in seeing it. Sorry, I would search for it now, but gotta go.

  155. Speak Your Truth permalink
    September 1, 2012 8:32 pm

    Wisdom~

    That Is the Team Office Address, I believe.

  156. Speak Your Truth permalink
    September 1, 2012 8:35 pm

    I would bet “Legacy, LLC.” is from Randy Haugen…another Amway (original) Diamond that orrin I believe solicited and then Randy Left with most of his group when he found out the “real” orrin…go figure!

  157. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    September 1, 2012 10:17 pm

    I’ll be back on later tomorrow.

    Hey, did you guys see the diacritical mark in the name: Obstacles? I guess it’s supposed to sound like Socrates? Or Sophocles?

    Obstacles the bobble head? C’mon here…old ladies have weak bladders! LOL!!

    CHRIS BRADY FROM HIS VACATION BLOG PAGE, WINTER LEADERSHIP CONVENTION, 2/25/2012:
    _____________________________
    “My favorite story from the weekend is about Obstacles himself. Here is the transcript from two text messages I received from a couple making their way home:

    “Obstacles already trying to hold us back! The bobblehead stopped us dead at airport security . . . But we overcame! Great weekend. Just what we needed!”

    “After he was removed and body cavity searched, he was returned to us in his cardboard casket!”

    Brady: “I guess even Obstacles has a little trouble getting through airport security!”

    http://chrisbrady.typepad.com/my_weblog/2008/02/winter-leadersh.html

    _______________________________________________________

    Ohhhhhhhh, my bladder……….Obstacles [Ob’-sta-clees] LOL!! Well, we know of two LIFErs who bought one—egad!

  158. webelieved permalink
    September 2, 2012 3:46 am

    I remember the bobblehead….THey were WAY overpriced.Once again I say too bad Brady doesn’t use his talents on something more honest in nature. What a waste.

  159. webelieved permalink
    September 2, 2012 5:38 am

    Wisdom- So you know the women leaders on team will be trying to befriend you daughter-in-law, especially if your son is really trying to build the business. They will invite her over, to meetings, to lunch whatever. They are great at asking questions and befriending others. They are taught all of this as sales techniques although that is not what they call it. It is called
    Make a friend
    Find a need
    Just want to warn you.
    When you tell them something….like ” I didn’t realize my husband would be gone so much”
    They will use the FEELFOUND manipulation.
    LIFER: I know how you feel, I felt the same way when we first got started, but I found that the sacrifice was worth the effort. Now we are together every day” (or whatever).
    They will ask you questions about yourselves, your dreams, goals. Problems in your life. IT is actually not normal in the real world, unless you were in therapy. It is flattering to most people and they like it. It makes them feel good. They will look around your home to see what they have in common with you and use it. Ie: Hunting, cars, fishing, kids, etc.
    In and of itself there is nothing wrong with being a good conversationalist, but when you are withholding information and using it to make money in the end, it is deceptive.
    We all know as soon as you stop spending your money on LIFE/TEAM they will drop that oh so close friendship in a heart beat!
    Then they link what you really really want to the business. IF you want a better marriage, or to pay your bills, or more friends, or to have fun.
    They also use your personality against you, as they have studied that. If one is a strong willed person, they will challenge you. Ie: “Oh not everyone can do this business, It isn’t for everyone. Or All the LEADERS will be there.”
    IF you are laid back they will say:
    “Here’s your ticket to the seminar, I will pick you up. I know you won’t dissapoint me.” Or “I put you on system, it will help you get xyz.”
    If you are detailed they will say” When you see so and so at the seminar they will share all the details. I bet they will have charts and graphs etc.”
    If you are a people person and love to have fun they may say “Oh man you have to come Saturday, there will be tons of people there! It is so much fun, with the music and the fun atmosphere, you will love it! ”
    This whole deal is serious manipulation. Period. Then when one mentors with their upline, they will confess all of their problems. Then the upline can use the guilt of that to get them to listen to cd’s, read books, motivate them, keep them working. The business is the solution to every problem in life. Your previous life and thinking before the group are the cause of all of your problems and LIFE/TEAM is the answer/solution to all your problems. You are taught to SUBMIT to the system. Why would you follow your family if they are broke? SUBMIT to your upline mentor if you want their success. SUBMIT to Orrin’s thinking as obviously he is smarter then anyone you know. Why wouldn’t you get advice from a system that was developed from a millionare etc. Why would you listen to anyone outside the group? They are unenlightened. They don’t know truth and we are leading people to the truth. They promised you residual income and your time back and they are parading their material goods in front of the group.

    Of course they never tell you they are gone from their kids all the time-nights and weekends. They are on the phone constantly and have to be available day and night to their down line. They are constantly spending money and time traveling to meetings. Many of the leaders are in debt trying to stay above water and many of them have been doing this for 9 years or more. They also don’t tell you they have keep replacing the people who quit, all the time!

    They also study the FIVE LOVE LANGUAGES, a book which helps you determine how people feel loved the most. Ie: recieving gifts, a pat on the back, spending time with them, etc. Leaders who know this can use these behaviors on your family and friends to keep them in the group. I believe away from a coercive group this is good information, say to help with your kids, etc. But when used in a destructive group it is manipulation for an end goal that isn’t feeling loved, it’s money and power over others.

    My hope is that explaining these things will help you see what you are up against in your fight for your family member. It is interesting that this book could be used to help get your son out. If you read these two books and understand him better, and apply them, you could really help him feel loved and cared for. Because you have a pure and different motives then LIFERS, you will have a better results with your son, practicing these things.
    🙂

  160. webelieved permalink
    September 2, 2012 5:41 am

    Correction: It should say FEEL, FELT, FOUND.

    Of course with all these techniques he will be given cds and books that back up the doctrine, black and white thinking of the group, phobia indoctrination against the outside, free thinking world.

  161. AlmostIn permalink
    September 2, 2012 6:49 am

    FOR THE NEWBIES–In simple terms what team/LIFE is and will bring into your life is a dependency on the functioning of YOU as compared to those in team/LIFE. You want money to be the answer to all your problems (if you just had this amount it would do this, this and this, etc…..) The problem with team/LIEF is that they want you to believe that all your answers lie within this group/organization. (this is where the cult aspect of this comes in) They have everything you’ve been looking for all in one neat package and with a little work you can have it to. (Look at them, they did it) You will have all of life’s answers to your struggles and worries. The problem with this is: No one person has all the answers! Answers can be found in all different places not just one group/organization/business.

    I was able to differientate what team/LIFE would bring into my life because I was involved in a relationship that was much like what I would experience in team/LIFE. The word narcissist came into my thoughts (I have no idea why this word entered in my mind) but as an inquisative person I did some research on it. What I would come to find out is that I experienced a relationship that was one sided–THEIR SIDE, THEIR VIEWS, AND ONLY THEIR AGENDA–YOURS DOES NOT ENTER THE PICTURE and if it does it is only by tactics of manipulation (if I give you the impression that I am giving you what you want then I can really get what it is that I am seeking). By reading this site; reading information about cults, narcissism, abuse and Merchants of Deception, Orrin Woodward and crew need the stroking that comes with being the top dog(s). They need YOU and every body involved in team/LIFE to lift them up. They can’t fathom being just an ordinary person because that would be the dealth of THEM. They need this to be alive and feeling good. THEY NEED you to do this for them because they can’t do it themselves. They need you to see what they have so-called achieved because they themselves can’t feel alive without your acknowledgment and agreement that they are alive. I see these types of people so clearly now. My radar for them has increased. Do not give all your power or your livlihood to only one group/person/business/organization. They do not have your best interests in heart. Seek many other opportunities and information to reach your goals.

    I was able to see that team/LIFE was going to be detrimental to me. I have reached out on this site because of the impact that my relationship and team/LIFE brought to my life–both good and bad. It is said that you can” lead a horse to water, but you can’t force it to drink”.

    Knowl.edge is power. There are evil people that disguise themselves as good out in the world and thinking that you aren’t going to come into contact with evil is just what Orrin Woodward and crew are hoping for.

    The people on this site are what psychologists call empaths (or empathetics). People who have experienced what you are experiencing in your life (just in different/same struggles/circumstances) This site is trying get you to see the mistakes that they have made that have been very detrimental to them and to give this (pay it forward) to any/all newbies that come to these sites because there is a knawing inside of them after being exposed to someone in team/LIFE. You can’t quite put a finger on it or have a definite understanding of just what you’re thinking or feeling. This site is worth the exploration of some critical thinking about what you may be getting involved with.

  162. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    September 2, 2012 7:01 am

    AlmostIn: here’s a good example of what you just said above—this is a new YouTube video made by Dan Hawkins…..and in essence, that’s the message: “you can have what I have if only you’re a productive part of the team”:

    Video is called “Chase Your Dreams in LIFE”

  163. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    September 2, 2012 7:20 am

    webelieved: in your longer last posting…you hit the nail on the head, too. Even IF my son isn’t into this by doing a lot of selling……over three weeks ago already he was 10 cd and 7 books in from one source or another just for himself to read—even by that time, when he’d get upset over something, he’s say he had to run out to his car to listen to a CD to calm down! Egad!

    I can see my son and Dan Hawkins making a perfect fit—I mean perfect….well, except for the money thing/mansion/toys, of course.

    I will see if I can’t find something out today……the spouse is due here soon with the kids…..

  164. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    September 2, 2012 11:32 am

    webelieved: no luck; I can tell the wife is NOT in; sounds (by omission of what was not said) like he is.

  165. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    September 2, 2012 12:01 pm

    LIFE/Team and How Orrin Woodward (in his obsession-al admiration of Thomas Jefferson) at times removed the idealistic philosophical thoughts (thousands of them!) from some (not all) of the actions of the man and how this causes UNDUE INFLUENCE for Woodward’s followers.

    THIS IS LONG: SKIP IF IT YOU’RE NOT INTO GETTING TO THE BOTTOM OF WOODWARD’S UNDERLYING MESSAGES.

    NOTE: I HAVE ALL-CAPPED SOME OF THE MOST IMPORTANT WORDS in the following paragraphs:

    ___________________________________________
    “Jefferson took it further than most. Jefferson held that not only are all men created equal, but they remain equal throughout their lives, equally capable of love as an attractive force. Their level of dependence makes them UNEQUAL IN PRACTICE. Removing or preventing CORRUPTING DEPENDENCE would enable men to be equal in practice. Jefferson idealized a future in which men would be FREE OF DEPENDENCIES, particularly those caused by banking or royal influences.

    In his May 28, 1818, letter to Mordecai Manuel Noah, Jefferson expressed his faith in humanity and his views on the nature of democracy. In political terms, Americans thought that VIRTUE was the “glue” that held together a republic, whereas patronage, dependency and coercion held together a monarchy.”

    (So, in reality, yes, he wanted government limited but he thought virtue would help create a setting where the common virtuous white man would be free and equal, eventually not needing favors or central banking to get ahead in an idealized society… And remember, his enemy was England—his policies aimed against England actually economically HURT the new USA…..but now read on)
    _____________________________________
    Compare this idea of VIRTUOUS people needing less government with (and remember, too: he didn’t really much like slavery per se, but he though it was an economic necessity for awhile):
    _____________________________________

    “As governor of Virginia (1780–1781) during the Revolutionary War, Jefferson recommended FORCIBLY MOVING Cherokee and Shawnee tribes that fought on the British side to lands west of the Mississippi River. Later, as president, Jefferson proposed in private letters beginning in 1803 a policy that under Andrew Jackson would be called INDIAN REMOVAL, under an act passed in 1830.As president, he made a deal with elected officials of the state of Georgia: if Georgia would release its legal claims to “discovery” in lands to its west, the U.S. military would help expel the Cherokee people from Georgia.”

    “Jefferson believed that NATIVE SHOULD GIVE UP their own cultures, religions, and lifestyles to assimilate to western European culture, Christian religion, and a European-style agriculture, which he believed to be superior”
    _______________________________________
    Also compare with, and note the name Wyeth! (remember, DeMille (the author whose book Woodward published) would call upon this name, too) ( the following is in the context of trying to disestablish the Anglicans):

    “In 1778, Jefferson’s “Bill for the More General Diffusion of Knowledge” and subsequent EFFORTS TO REDUCE CONTROL BY CLERGY led to some small changes at William and Mary College, but free public education was not established until the late nineteenth century.[41] In 1779, at Jefferson’s behest, William and Mary appointed his mentor George Wythe as the first professor of law in an American university.”
    _______________________________
    Also compare this with what he did as a Governor :

    “After Independence, Jefferson returned to Virginia and was elected to the Virginia House of Delegates for Albemarle County.[37][38] Before his return, he commented on the drafting of the state’s constitution; he continued to support freehold suffrage, by which ONLY PROPERTY HOLDERS COULD VOTE.”
    ____________________________

    And finally, here is why I suspect Orrin Woodward and LIFE truly admire Jefferson:

    “Though he and his supporters attempted to dismantle several of the accomplishments of his two predecessors, notably the NATIONAL BANK, MILITARY, and FEDERAL TAXATION SYSTEM, they were only partially successful”

    Woodward etal want this and teach this, BUT: they have taken the portions of philosophy they choose to focus on out of the man who lived in a specific blink of time, who had his own prejudices and unique point of view.

    LIFE/Team is pushing a hidden agenda…and who knows if they actually believe their own claptrap—it sells printed/verbal goods and makes them multi-millionaires.
    _________________________
    To make things easier: if you want to check out footnote sources, got to the simple Wikipedia under Thomas Jefferson—there are well over 225 footnotes, an extensive bibliography and differing points of view presented, too.

  166. webelieved permalink
    September 3, 2012 4:11 am

    It is almost like Orrin is a bad textbook, only giving one side of the story and/or rewriting history to fit his agenda!

    It’s amazing how this group works. Leaders will change what they experienced themselves, to view it the way Orrin or the PC wants them to perceive it, even after they saw the opposite occur with their own eyes!

    For example, the Peters confronted the Fishers about Orrin taking away their TEAM PROFIT SHARING with no warning or notice after years of being promised residual income from stages all over the country. Be sure Jammie witnessed them (Raquel and later Mark) work for 6 years, day and night building 3 teams. Raquel was Jammie’s mentor and close friend. They sat together at meetings, traveled together, took notes at majors together, stayed up all hours of the night together, they talked several times a day, etc.
    Here is what Jammie said. She told Raquel, (while very ill) that she “didn’t deserve to be paid by Team, since she was no longer building the business!” Fisher also said “PEOPLE WERE SHOWING THE PLAN WRONG” all those years!
    This is after 6 years of witnessing with her own eyes, Guzzardo, Blomdahl, Oettinger, Woodward, Brady, Marks, and the rest of the speakers, live and on cd’s, videos etc saying, implying and selling prospects on the fact that the TEAM will give a person passive, residual, pipeline income if they build it! (They still imply that when showing the LIFE/TEAM plan today.)

    Isn’t it crazy how she changed what she experienced, because apparently that is what Orrin Woodward told her?

  167. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    September 3, 2012 4:26 am

    webelieved: I just can’t believe what the Peters couple went through! Just how /why did the Peters fall out of “favor”, so to speak? And was this Jammie a spy:?

    And just what was the beeg about showing the plan? You mean that then Woodward tried to change experienced fact that it had been customary to talk about (while pitching folks about getting into the biz), the perk of getting residual income?

    You know, some of this is just too Orwellian, really!

  168. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    September 3, 2012 4:26 am

    typo: “beeg” was supposed to read: being

  169. September 3, 2012 8:18 am

    @Speak – the publisher information was a good find. Good job.

  170. webelieved permalink
    September 3, 2012 9:22 am

    Oh yeah he tried to change history…..you know change the story so he could then justify taking people’s earned, promised incomes. They fell out of favor because they refused to screw over their teammates. Guzzardo, Woodward and Blomdahl wanted them to register their team in the wrong order going into Monavie. Blomdahl also wanted them to give away tons of personals to other people in their teams. Personals they contacted and showed the plan to! He wanted them to only keep three! Perhaps that is how many he had?
    Anyway, they refused to do it as no one; not the Hawkins, Fishers, Grafs had to do it. (They could see that below them)
    After refusing to do these things that they felt were unethical, they were blackballed out of everything they did in the business previously, by Guzzardo and Woodward.

  171. webelieved permalink
    September 3, 2012 9:24 am

    You can read their story in the Life Primer.

  172. Speak Your Truth permalink
    September 3, 2012 10:06 pm

    This is a very interesting find on Oliver DeMille’s supposed 4 or 5 degrees, and as far as I am concerned it says more about his integrity and character. How important do you think honesty and integrity is to the Team LIEfers?

    Wonder why orrin and cronies are promoting Mr DeMille’s books, homeschooling program, having him speak at the LIEf convention and publishing his book; 1913 and DeMille return some of the same favors? Money! I have no doubts why orrin would have found this clone.

    From my experience it is quite obvious, First , the most obvious is the MONEY, and then they think this is or can be used as a ‘credibility card’…You decide how credible you think Mr. DeMille is when you read the link, Lastly, it is somewhere they could dump their LIEf materials and their personal written books,* which orrin promotes DeMille and visa versa, then they can claim they have customers and are selling their books to the; “George Wythe University” and “Thomas Jefferson Education” or TJEd.

    link>http://themakingofauniversity.blogspot.com/2009/01/diploma-demille.html

    ***Warning, you will need some patience but worth the read. It is very long but could be extremely valuable information and save someone from being mislead. This blogger obviously put a lot of time into the research.

    I have to say I kept anticipating throughout the entire blog post that I would see mention of the MLM Oliver DeMIlle was a part of but it never transpired! Funny, the blogger does mention cults though.

    Mr. DeMille’s strategies wreak so much of an MLM and orrin that I was shocked it was never mentioned. Although Mr. DeMille’s mentors and some people those mentors support along with some very interesting facts about them; were mentioned. I didn’t search to see if any were ever tied to an MLM.

    What I gathered from reading the link was that Oliver DeMille and Orrin use many of the same tactics, very eerie: changing, covering up information, i.e. damage control mentioned, beefed up self promotions/credentials/degrees, lies, the obvious more concern for image rather than character, bait & switch techniques with seminars and religious agenda, (mentioned in another post) and then the recruiting process to the Face to Face with Greatness, seminars, also mentioned in an earlier comment.

    The readers can decide for themselves, but as for me, I would never have anything to do with his program, his affiliation to orrin & Lief, nor will I ever buy any of his books and certainly would use his homeschooling program.

    All of my comments are based on my findings, experience, and opinions.

  173. Speak Your Truth permalink
    September 3, 2012 10:19 pm

    Webelieved~

    Haha…”It’s almost like bad textbook”…

    You nailed it! Wow so people were following orrin and other pc for almost a decade and half and they supposedly showed the plan wrong? Seriously? Unfreakin beliveable.

    No wonder they have to keep pilling the lies to cover up the last lie (they claim they are Christian, just wondering where it says in the Bible “lying” is the right thing?

    ..More cultic tactics, they have to re-write their experiences and history in order to not be crushed under their own conscience! How else could they continue; sadly they deny the truth, lie to themselves and others and ultimately have sold their souls for that almighty buck. Glad I am gone!

  174. Speak Your Truth permalink
    September 3, 2012 10:23 pm

    should say: Wouldn’t use his homeschooling program.

  175. Speak Your Truth permalink
    September 3, 2012 10:49 pm

    Webelieved~

    Funny how they are splitting the dough up on the publishing gig? At least it appears that way. Brady with his own publishing job through Amazon and “Signature Management Team, LLC.” or orrin with Barnes n Noble?…These guys are the most greedy cons, I have ever personally met.

    It is a shame they have mastered deception and have so many others fooled with their fake fascade of “they aren’t in it for the money”… lies….Amazing how they say that out of one side of their mouth and brag to high heavens about their material ill-gotten gains out of the other/ Then self-proclaim humility and people fall for it! People need to stop and Think, use their own brains, and senses….they would save themselves days, months, or possibly years of hell; if only they would watch the comp plan videos, read the LIEf P&P then use their common sense then everyone would see the lies and fakers they really are.

  176. webelieved permalink
    September 4, 2012 1:22 am

    Here is the description of Steve Hassan’s new book: FREEDOM OF MIND.

    “In the post 911 world, people are more susceptible than ever to charismatic figures who offer simple, black v. white, us v. them, good v. evil, formulaic solutions. The rise of the Internet; increasingly sophisticated knowledge about how to influence and manipulate others; and the growing vulnerabilities of people across the planet—make for a dangerous, potentially devastating combination. Steven Hassan’s new book Freedom of Mind provides the knowledge and awareness needed to help yourself and loved ones avoid or escape from such dangerous people and situations. This must-read volume is a significantly updated and revised edition of Hassan’s groundbreaking Releasing the Bonds (2000). People who read and benefitted from that book—and also his earlier book, Combatting Cult Mind Control (1989)—will want to read Hassan’s latest. It provides an up-to-the-minute guide to the reality of ‘undue influence’—the preferred term for mind control—in the post 9/11 era. Unstable Global Environment Enhances Dangers of Unethical Control The world has changed greatly in the last decade. The rise of the Internet, the emergence of global terrorism and of dangerous totalistic ideologies, and the shifts in global markets—these and other changes have created new opportunities for unscrupulous individuals, groups, and institutions to exert unethical control over others. Freedom of Mind exposes the techniques and methods that individuals, cults, and institutions of all types—religious, business, therapeutic, educational, governmental—use to undo a person’s capacity to think and act independently. Individuals More Vulnerable than Ever The Internet is now the primary vehicle for recruitment and indoctrination. It is also a means for spreading sophisticated information about social psychology, hypnosis, and other techniques of social control, which are being used—in ways both effective and dangerous—by ‘influence professionals.’ Meanwhile, people are becoming increasingly vulnerable. Sleep-deprived, overweight and looking to improve themselves, overloaded with often frightening images and information; anxious about the current economic decline, climate change, and government corruption on all levels. People are more susceptible than ever to charismatic figures who offer simple, black v. white, us v. them, good v. evil, formulaic solutions. These factors—the rise of the Internet; increasingly sophisticated knowledge about how to influence and manipulate others; and the growing vulnerabilities of people across the planet—make for a dangerous, potentially devastating combination. Freedom of Mind Provides Help for Yourself, a Loved One, or a Friend Hassan’s new book, Freedom of Mind, aims to fill the gap. It identifies and explains how to identify and evaluate potentially dangerous groups and individuals. Hassan details his groundbreaking approach, the ‘Strategic Interactive Approach,’ which can be used to help a loved one leave such a situation. Step-by-step, Hassan shows you how to: evaluate the situation; interact with dual identities; develop communication strategies using phone calls, letter writing and visits; understand and utilize cult beliefs and tactics; use reality-testing and other techniques to promote freedom of mind. He emphasizes the value of meeting with trained consultants to be effectively guided and coached and also to plan and implement effective interventions. The best way to protect yourself and your loved ones is knowledge and awareness.”

    As a follower of Orrin Woodward and TEAM, reading Hassan’s earlier book opened my eyes to what had happened to me in the group and how I feel, I had been so deceived for so long. I would highly recommend this guy if you feel your loved ones are under the influence of another person, and you want to help them. I would start with this new book, Freedom of Mind.

  177. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    September 4, 2012 4:09 am

    Speak: (regarding your post on the “4 or 5 degrees”) I had actually reprinted part of what Woodward said about Demille’s work, the new book ‘1913’. Here it is again in case you missed it buried in prior posts:

    “My good friend and scholar Oliver DeMille, author of the bestseller Thomas Jefferson Education, is finishing up a fascinating book on the force shifts of 1913. Few people understand and explain the movements toward and away from freedom like DeMille. Simply put, he is humble enough to continue learning and intelligent enough to be a veritable genius. This is a potent combination for simplifying the concepts of freedom. Here is a portion of the introduction I wrote for DeMille’s instant classic.

    Oliver DeMille’s soon to be released book gives the background story of the founders intentions and the fatal force shifts that hinder our freedoms. In truth, the four force shifts described in DeMille’s new book are painful enough on their own, but disastrous when combined:

    1. The general welfare clause
    2. The Federal Reserve bill
    3. The income tax amendment
    4. The democratic election of senators

    America must turn back from the precipice and return to the path of freedom. DeMille’s book is a torch to carry on freedom’s path. Western Civilization needs more leaders like DeMille who are willing to learn, live, and share their stories of freedom. This book is essential reading, a primer of freedom or anyone desiring to live free.” (author: Orrin Woodward)

    _____________
    We KNOW that Woodward wants to get his welfare message and anti-fed banking message out, among others. I guess he found an ally in ‘Diploma’ Demille, eh?

    [Editor’s note: Added blockquote tag for better readability]

  178. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    September 4, 2012 4:15 am

    @webelieved: I had to crack up, too at: Woodward’s “almost like a bad textbook” LOL!!!!

    Thanks for all of your work on what to expect. Unfortunately, there won’t be any help coming from the wifey–she’s got hew own agenda (if truth be told, she considers herself a “princess” of sorts), and she’s been causing us silent heartache for years. We thought, in this instance, she would take a stand, but she won’t—she’s a tough one to explain….maybe this will help: her license plates have an abbreviated “whatever” on them. So, if it ain’t about her, i.e., unless she comes literally crying to me about some infraction committed against her by my son, she doesn’t have time (read that to mean empathy) for others concerns. Just wait…wait until this foolishness causes her to not be able to get her nails or hair done….

  179. webelieved permalink
    September 4, 2012 5:08 am

    Did you see the news today about the Church of Scientology looking for a bride for Tom Cruise? Amazing how they operate the same….deny deny deny. Blame the guy telling the truth, hide the truth, spin the truth, even though there is more then one witness telling the story. I watched a video on Cruise talking about his religion and he looked eerily familiar to my experience in Team. The glazed over look, thinking we had special knowledge and were special/different then the outside world, believing we had the answer for the problems in the world and we could help people by offering it ………………………………………oh my……HOW EMBARRASSING!
    Check out Cruise at:

    http://gawker.com/5002269/the-cruise-indoctrination-video-scientology-tried-to-suppress

    Do you think he is under undue influence?

  180. webelieved permalink
    September 4, 2012 5:16 am

    The wife sounds like a perfect recruit for Team/LIEF. She will get sucked in by the promises of money. Just a trip to the Hawkins will do that. I bet they are working on it. I cannot believe your son has read all those books etc in such a short time. Sounds like he is really getting sucked in. WOW. I bet his upline is excited to see that and is promoting him for it. I wonder how many plans he’s showing. A “leader” (tongue in cheek) shows 15 people a month, at the minimum.

  181. Cali permalink
    September 4, 2012 8:01 am

    I would agree she will get sucked in soon, especially when the women come around and she hears their stories.I know that is a really good tactic; putting the women on stage and telling their heartwrenching stories.

  182. Speak Your Truth permalink
    September 4, 2012 8:08 am

    Wisdom~

    Thanks for all your efforts. It is not surprising to me that orrin has parasitically attached himself to DeMille. That is what he does has always done to everything and everyone that will ‘serve’ his agenda or get him in the ‘public spot light’, their business is built on fake credibility.

    I have not read any of DeMille’s books and am sure there would be some things I may agree with. But I also know he is promoting orrin woodward & chris brady and I already know what they are willing to sell out to.

    I know from experience they do not practice what they preach, have done many unethical things, lied, deceived, mislead..etc. Now that I have read that link in full, and know DeMille is promoting them, etc..I would not trust Oliver DeMille as far as I could throw him.

    It doesn’t matter to me, If your message is good, truthful, etc, if the person is willing to lie, decieve, & mislead,(for whatever reason, monetary or otherwise) and to mislead others to try and make themselves ‘appear’ great or better than they really are etc.. Then I could careless…about your message or “what or how much you know,”

    Everything begins and ends with Trust or lack thereof; in my book. If you are willing to lie, mislead others about yourself etc., and then promote criminals<IMO, then it is highly likely, you will do this in any and all areas; just to serve your selfish agenda. “The end justifies the means”…orrin moto.

    People hire marketing firms to try and pay for 'reputation management', haha which I think is just hysterical that they would waste so much money on something that not only doesn’t work, but is in most cases a epic failure and ends up making them look even worse! NO one believes the marketing BS today, and can obviously see right through it! This doe not work! You 'earn' your 'reputation' and no amount of money can buy you a good one! People and the Truth ALWAYS, Find you out by your actions!

    They must love sticking their heads in the sand to continue to convince (themselves) they are 'great' and obviously people everyday are figuring them out of who they really are, no one else is believing it. This is orrin & cronies M.O. they must find someone to attach themselves to that they think makes themselves 'appear' credible and of course for their other reasons to serve their agenda, and then… Walla.. they are ‘world recognized leaders” haha, that only works long enough until people, realize it is their game and all a bunch of hype…

    I do not believe, most people just believe whatever someone says about themselves, not today when corruption and scams are so rampant! But in Team LIEf they have this covered, temporarily at least and is WHY orrin demands edification/worshipping from EVERYONE in the cult environment.

    It fools almost all in the beginning, unfortunately like your son, including all us on here and many, many others who then just foolishly repeat whatever they hear, without checking out if it is true or not. This is manipulation.. and buys the LIEfers time long enough to suck as much money out of as many pockets and for as long as possible…. or UNTIL they find Amthrax site and others. Then the crack (doubt) and the ‘undue influence’ begins to break down.. others will start to 'question' and then slowly, their own critical thinking begins to work. They then begin to see with their own eyes and ears; what they always knew in their 'gut'…things just didn't add up and they begin, eventually find the truth, realize they have been duped and betrayed….then they escape :)!

  183. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    September 4, 2012 3:40 pm

    @Speak: so you guys aren’t fibbing, are you, when you say he actually wants/expects to be edified? That’s just plain spooky! And is his motto: ‘the end justifies the means’ actually what he says? (or did you just mean that in a literary sense). I’m just stupified at all of this–I gotta start going back now in earlier blogs…wish I had done that to begin with.

    @webelieved and @Cali: yeah, when I found out (as he was screaming at the top of his lungs at his mother, of course) when he yelled: I’ve already read 10 books and have listened to 7 CDs!!!!, and evidently by that time had been to multiple meetings–all by 8/10/12. When I talked to my sister today, she told me that when we had a big party at the very end of July, he had told her he’d been at a big meeting for something on 7/25…..okay, now we know for SURE he was at the Bradley center….and this was one of his kids’ birthdays, too. And so it begins: the absence from home. (Granted, we had a party for her on another day, but heck….seems odd to me).

  184. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    September 4, 2012 6:36 pm

    @webelieved: Well, looky here: you are right. There is great similarity between LIFE/Team and Scientology:

    “In plain English, the purpose of Scientology ethics is to eliminate opponents, then eliminate people’s interests in things other than Scientology”.

    (Source: Stephen A. Kent (September 2003). “Scientology and the European Human Rights Debate: A Reply to Leisa Goodman, J. Gordon Melton, and the European Rehabilitation Project Force Study”. Marburg Journal of Religion, as retrieved by Wikipedia )

    Let’s see: they eliminate family and friends and sequester you in LIFE
    Then, they narrow your focus so you just read their own cd’s and books
    And then, you’re whole life becomes LIFE.

    Yup, just like Scientology. Hey! Let’s call them the LIFE/Team Thetans! LOL!!

    (To those lucky enough to not know this–and note–I, too, just learned it from a young friend on Facebook who explained it when he made mention of this word: Thetans in Scientology are alien spirits who have lived in many alien cultures before coming to earth and actually earning the highest level, which is being a Thetan)

  185. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    September 4, 2012 6:52 pm

    Speak, etal: hmmmmmm, I’ve been thinking….I would NOT be surprised if Woodward and Brady were a John Birch Society members. Why?

    Just to name a few things they’ve recently been involved in (after some decades of being rather shunned for what was considered their overboard belief in some conspiracy theories and the fact that the far right wingers thought that the Birchers were even too far right for them; but note: they are supported by Mormonism, too–I had no idea some Mormons are so political–and NOTE: I am not criticizing, merely surprised):

    “We believe that a Constitutional Republic, such as our Founding Fathers gave us, is probably the best of all forms of government”

    “The Society has been active in supporting the auditing of, and aims to eventually dismantle, the Federal Reserve System. The JBS believes that the United States Constitution gave only Congress the ability to coin money, and did not intend for it to delegate this power to a banking monopoly, or to transform it into a fiat currency not backed by gold or silver.”

    (Source: Principles of the JBS,1962; and Sara Just ‘The Far Right John Birch Society–2010″ from ABC news as retrieved by Wikipedia)

    This stuff is right up Woodward’s etal alley….going to see if I can find more…but I think I’ve posted a lot already that points to the holding of these beliefs, too, especially the wanting to go back to the founding fathers, and the banking and the now repeated mention of “fiat currency”…….Woodward has lambasted about that more than once, eh?

  186. Speak Your Truth permalink
    September 4, 2012 9:21 pm

    Wisdom~

    I wish I were fibbing! This is the number 1 way these guys gain undue influence. It is why you see the defenders, defend orrin and the PC even though they may have never met them or know anything about them. They have no clue, and are mesmerized by these gods that the entireTEAM lifts up. They control, manipulate and earn instant and blind ‘trust’ with this technique. It is a continuous bombardment of idolatry. Trust trumps everything, and without the idolatry of orrin and the rest he would be a no body, or at best just like everyone else. It gets others to over look the real truth about them and makes the environment and everyone in it ‘appear’ like they walk on water. It is phony and unnatural performance. Who does this to this extreme, outside of the cults.. MLM twisted world?

    It’s all part of the step by step process to get others to be in admiration, listen to (not question) and no doubt people act like they are in awe of them. Get them to a seminar and they believe they just walked into a mystical experience with a bunch of people who walk on water. You are expected to treat the PC as if they do walk on water; carry their bags, open doors, take a bullet for these self proclaimed gods and the ‘culture’ and their demands perpetuate it.

    The newbie is clueless so they don’t know it is demanded they think it is all so genuine, most of it is not. You could have been in a week, not know a soul, have an upline who is a pedophile and not know it, but you will be edifying them, I guarantee it.. just because everyone else has. They quickly learn to play Simon says without question, knowing anything about who they edify or a second thought. It is also another way to manipulate the leaders by stroking egos; orrin is a master ego stroker/ manipulator, so he uses this to do just that to the ‘leaders.’

    Their edification is so constant it breeds arrogance and is why the PC walks around as if they are gods they start to believe all this hyped up glorification about themselves and act like they should be treated as the President of the United States. They use it for punishment and reward also. Because the business is built on deception, it would not survive without it, and they rely on making gods out of others or no one would listen to them. If you don’t have orrin/pc/ or someone ‘edifying’ you, people in that environment will not listen to you and then think you aren’t a “leader”.

    Vulnerable people will fall hard for this, especially people who have no one recognizing or praising them, outside the cult. They know this and therefore, use it to the hilt. It is sick. They abuse the needs of others with this. Imagine yourself in a room of thousands of people and every one of them doesn’t get a sentence away from idolizing orrin or their upline. But the environment demands it so people think it’s…wow.. so positive and ‘look’ how ‘respected’ orrin, the pc, and others are, orrin must be a demigod. They then fall for or come to ‘believe’ they are in the presence of “greatness”.

    So you see the “edification” really is only meant for inside their cult and is used to get you to follow and blindly trust. Orrin loves to use the quote: “Grown Men Die for it and Babies Cry for it!”

    They will argue it is just saying ‘nice’ things about others, but the hypocrites don’t ‘edify’ anyone outside of their fake world. You don’t have to look far to see everyone of the PC “de-edify” the outside world, govt. bosses, corp. world, family, friends, Pastors… ANYTHING that isn’t of them.

    I personally witnessed this and saw orrin years ago subtly becoming the sick narcissist he is and I have personal knowledge he has scolded others when he felt they ‘edified’ a couple of the PC ‘too’ much from stage and him not enough!

  187. webelieved permalink
    September 5, 2012 4:43 am

    Lol! Speak great post and oh so true!

  188. webelieved permalink
    September 5, 2012 4:47 am

    Wisdom- People stand and clap when people walk up to the podium. Leaders will do anything to spend time with the master Orrin. It is so dissapointing when you finally get to spend time with him and you realize he tells you nothing special, no inside information you thought you were missing. But it keeps you trapped working for the top of the group.

  189. webelieved permalink
    September 5, 2012 4:52 am

    Everything in the group atmosphere is unatural for a business setting and it feeds into mystical manipulation. In other words it feels different/good. Then they add religion and wolah people believe God sent this business for them to do. They believe they are making a positive difference in the world and that God will reward them financially. What’s the cliche they use….
    ” God honors commitment.”

  190. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    September 5, 2012 5:46 am

    @Speak: you said: “Get them to a seminar and they believe they just walked into a mystical experience with a bunch of people who walk on water.” “The newbie is clueless so they don’t know it is demanded they think it is all so genuine, most of it is not.”

    I know you speak the truth…..I’ve seen so many of these things in my son in a very short time! It’s so sick and twisted. NO WONDER my son said he found “the answers to the universe.”

  191. Cali permalink
    September 5, 2012 8:35 am

    @wisdom: yes what speak is saying about edifying without even knowing the person is true. And they don’t care to know. I remember one of the last functions I went to (I apologize if I had mentioned this elsewhere on this blog), I saw a man I knew had raped a woman I knew and I told my upilne that I was uncomfortable seeing him at the functions (I didn’t say why, just knew something really awful about him). All the upline said is “well, people can change.” Why, yes I suppose that’s true but with this blanketted “positive thinking” it doesn’t allow for common sense to step in and put a limit on some things like there should be. I am not sorry that I don’t want to be in the same place as a rapist (as far as I know, he reamined low on the totum pole). Again, it was another step closer to the door for me.Knowing they would defend anyone being there for the sake of edification even if they were really a “nobody” put a light bulb in my head about how geniune people were.

    I also remember standing at a function in the back, and these two young guys were staring me up and down, like pigs oggling me. And I mentioned how it made me uncomfortable so someone and they told me not to let anyone steal my dream and maybe I should be more mindful of how I was dressed. Ugh… Another step closer. I am just sorry it took so many steps. I was young and naive. Finding out through the comments that single women who built this didn’t get the credit and were criticized for being arrogant when expecting some recognition doesn’t surprise me. If you are a woman, you are still lower than a man even if he is scum.

  192. Speak Your Truth permalink
    September 5, 2012 9:27 am

    There is so much to be said about how they ‘use’ “Edification” to gain ‘power’ OVER you…”Undue Influence.” It is thee most powerful and effective manipulation ‘tool’ they have and can never be overstated.

    It is their #1 most effective cardinal rule. Clearly, this is the quickest way to gain undue influence, and stripping others of their “critical thinking” faculties.

    People and am sure Amway and their attorney’s wonder how orrin got thousands to ‘follow’ (overnight or as it ‘appeared’) into the ‘unknown’ promised Wal-Mart of the internet…This did NOT happen overnight as some may believe. It took YEARS of indoctrination and orrin first scheming a plan and then deliberately manipulating leaders through soliciting, the use of “edification”> gaining undue influence or what orrin would call “building up bank accounts”..a deliberate way and more manipulation, and is nothing more than stoking of ego’s which in turn gained him the trust he needed from the biggest leaders; who then had influence in their groups to carry out his schemed plan.

    So he spent years pretending he was genuine and cared/loved his leaders and ‘best friends’…which gained him unquestionable trust or “buy in” as he would call it… more manipulation and “edification” of him for years gained this and it appeared at least at first to have worked like a charm or at least it ‘appeared’ it was.

    The leaders ‘believed’ he would do just what he said he would do. without question (because he is such a Godly man of his word..lie) because he was “edified” by the TOP leaders all the way down to the unsuspecting newbie who had no clue… edifying such as: he is a “Godly man” so full of “integrity”…who would NEVER do anything or “leave no one behind”.. hurt the masses or those leaders business. He is a genius (demigod) and visionary who is going to “change the world”…blah blah blah (worshipping/edification).. who will take everyone to the “Promised Land” where the flow of milk and honey is for All!

    He convinced people because of the bombardment of praise and worship of himself (edification) that he was so noble, selfless, and heroic, just ask him, he will tell ya. This ONLY worked because he had Everyone “edifying” him for all those years and if you were a ‘leader’ who was unfortunate enough to get close to this narcissist….he would “plant seeds” of how ‘great he was’ to you constantly and after he spent your time listening to how “great he is” he would stroke your ego and say “go get it done”.. These behind the scenes hints orrin would give leaders in turn they would edify more and send little secret messages of what he the god (orrin) was doing for ‘us all! … That worked for a while and was going ‘just as planned’… until He became so full of himself, he thought he had a flawless plan…he actually thought Amway would buckle to his “leveraged” (all those numbers= people) but as we all know it, backfired and didn’t quite go as planned.

    Clearly all the leaders..he ‘sold out’/betrayed and ruined their entire businesses (because of undue influence) and years of their dedication, loyalty to the cult leader..Their efforts flushed down the toilet as it appeared overnight.

    He and a few of his ‘good ole boy/yes men’ who kept blindly trusting right..continue off the cliff and the ‘new plan’ became cut throat desperation…they decimated leaders entire organization…allowing a few of the yes men in control and to carry the marching orders to destruct, destroy, and steal, and in return for their “loyalty” he ‘rewarded’ them for being good little “followers” with some “special deals”.

    They took from those who built it and gave their earned business to others, who did not earn it! It became a Greed festival.

    As it all turns out it was a tremendous blessing for many, and especially for us personally. No question or denying on our part, how evil orrin and his follower- yes-men are. Had all this not happened, he would still have many more worshipping him, and that is dangerous! We chose our ethics, morals, to keep our integrity and refused to sell our souls and our friends out for a worthless piece of silver, as I personally know many chose the same.

    The greatest lesson of all DO NOT put your trust in orrin or any other person for that matter..they are false profiteers. Orrin’s true selfish motives clearly have been exposed. There is much more to this twisted story, but it is clear and a message of hope for all who have a loved one sucked in… no matter the strong hold..or how much undue influenced is gained through edification/ manipulation; it will never last or be 100% full proof. Because as in all cults…they can never deliver what they promise!

  193. Speak Your Truth permalink
    September 5, 2012 10:07 am

    Cali~

    Thanks for sharing that and I am sorry for your experience. It is a very desperate and destructive place to get trapped…the MLM world game players, play.. is based in greed, all else is “fake it til you make it.” Pretty sick, and I doubt for a second would you had told them of the rapist, they would still came back with the same rehearsed answer. But I wonder if it would become serious to them if this guy wanted to around their daughter?

    These guys are masters at creating and “blaming” victims. Yes people change but in their environment it is only temporary therefore only artificial behavior modification occurs and they do control your mind and almost every other area of your life, so it may ‘appear’ people have lasting change but in reality they are just conforming to the pressure of the ‘culture’ and environment .

    They change no one, they alter your mind, and especially aren’t going to ‘change’ a rapist, but they do believe they have the answers to every problem, so orrin is arrogant enough he things he can change anything, but the testimonies of lasting or permanent results shout differently.

  194. September 5, 2012 3:04 pm

    Just been reading through, but a note on Mormonism, the way the belief system is actually set up as a theocratic system with its own laws, ordinances, spirituality, justice system, that sort of thing. In the beginning of Mormonism, there were groups of this sect that controlled its members with it’s own government. It’s not surprising that Mormons will want power in a currently-ruling gov’t so that those under the gov’t will be ruled under Mormon dictates. The exact same goes for Jehovah’s witnesses and Muslims. And yes, even my own religion, Judaism, was a theocratic society in the ancient days.

    So in short, it’s very natural for Mormons to want to go political.

    I’ve said this time and time again, I’m offended by the fact that they use religion. As a messianic jew, I was wondering to myself “why am I coming to this meeting on shabbat?” type thing. It really should’ve been a no-brainer to me, but the promise of getting my family off of welfare was too tantalising…

  195. webelieved permalink
    September 8, 2012 4:38 am

    Thought this fit better under undue influence

    Speak- You got it SLEEP DEPRIVATION for sure. OF course a way cults can indoctrinate you, because your ability to fight it, think is lowered. I remember sleeping 3 hours at some majors. Then right back at it, because we didn’t want to miss a thing. Oh my, it hurts my body thinking about it. My feet would swell up like balloons from sitting so long. By the time we left the arena, women would be kicking off their shoes and nylons from the pain. Of course they were told they HAD to wear them. Jeez.

    Suits and red ties. etc. Guys would wear the same suit for days on end because they only had one. BOY DID WE LOOK WEIRD! Of course I later learned that conforming the way followers dress is another way destructive groups control people.

    Today I LOVE the feel of jeans. I remember when first coming out of this group it felt strange to wear jeans and a tshirt! (That gives you an idea of how many days I was working this thing!Ughh….) It also felt strange to listen to music, watch tv, watch a movie, have time to relax, go on vacation, etc. I felt like I was living in a foreign country that I just arrived to. Very spooky. Of course this was because I was in the group so long, I wasn’t living in the real world. It was very painful and confusing at first. I had a lot of crap to sort out in my mind. I remember the guilt of staying home on Tuesdays.
    Once I was gone for a while, and I understood what had happened to me, it became exhilarating to know I was finally free! Free to think. Free to do what I wanted, when I wanted. To know I no longer had to listen to any rhetoric and no longer had to report my thoughts, decisions or private information to anyone else (my upline guru). To know I no longer had to allow them (my upline) into my life to manipulate me. To be able to think for myself and make my own decisions felt so odd at first, like getting a stone wheel turning, and yet really good at the same time! In the begining it was hard to even make decisions because my whole world was flipped upside down. I will tell you my kids were SO HAPPY when we quit! So glad to have their parents back. They hated the business.

  196. webelieved permalink
    September 8, 2012 4:41 am

    Izzy- Thanks for sharing. The promises are so enticing aren’t they? The mixed messages, and lies get us to do things we would normally not do. So sad.

    Good to see you back!

  197. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    September 8, 2012 5:35 am

    webelieved: I saw the special on cults again last night. It’s eery, isn’t it, to see a business run on principles like some of the infamous maniacs ran theirs, albeit LIFE is more about blind financial rape during the blind conformity.

  198. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    September 8, 2012 5:51 am

    Quote from a LIFEr: “Thank you Matt [Mielke]! You and Michelle will never realize the impact your example has made on my life. I feel truly blessed to be in this battle with such incredible Godly men and women of courage and character. Keep making a difference and spreading truth, your ripple effect is spreading through eternity… there is no better profession than what we do in LIFE!” (Kristen S’s blog page; she is from Waukesha, WI, just about 35 miles from me)

    This type of adoration is just plain spooky!! They’re in a “battle” and Orrin Woodward speaks of war strategies and ‘domesticating’ once they slay the enemy, eh? Jesus! I want my gown son back and out of this s*h*t!!!

    NOTE: I have been scouring sources: it seems in SE Wisconsin, the majority of the cult members live in areas surrounding: Whitewater (PC Hawkins lives there, of course) , Janesville, and Fort Atkinson, with some in Madison, of course and further south: Racine,

  199. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    September 8, 2012 5:52 am

    oops: above post correction “gown son” = grown son

  200. September 8, 2012 7:53 am

    Servile flattery is an MLMer mainstay-makes me gag!

  201. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    September 8, 2012 8:10 am

    exambot: yes! Those are the correct words: ‘servile flattery’…..that’s all I see from blog to blog…and like robots, they repost god Orrin’s words and his blogs, too…..as if they all sit by the pool of LIFE, and reflect deeply upon his words. I had to laugh when I read how one young man, in reference to the 1913 book by “Diploma” Demille (which was published by Woodward, of course, and with the book preamble written by Woodward, of course) claimed it was such a shame that most people in the United States do not have an inkling as to what the book info revealed about the sad state of US affairs.

  202. webelieved permalink
    September 8, 2012 11:09 am

    Flattery is taught and modeled in the group. It has been asked for by Orrin to
    his own leaders. It is a way to decieve and stroke peoples egos as well as a form of control. It is used to keep people from speaking the truth because in the group they would be viewed as “negative”, or having a bad attitude. I have seen leaders give false flattery and accalades to mislead new prospects over anover. We were taught to do it….ie: “you pare with the right guy,he has a moving on business! He won’t ager you wrong”. Meanwhile in reality he’s been hanging out in the business for six years, never making a profit, and someone else may have built his team for him. See it all of the time. You learn to ignore all feelings that are considered negative or bad even of they are legitimate. It almost becomes like an addiction. In reality this need to appear nicey nicey, positive, keeps followers trapped and severely oppressed. They cannot even talk about reality. There are times when things in life suck, but don’t talk about it in the group, especially if one is a leader. All this is of course my opinion and experiencce.

  203. webelieved permalink
    September 8, 2012 11:10 am

    Sorry for typos. You are with the right guy, he won’t lead you wrong…

  204. webelieved permalink
    September 8, 2012 11:18 am

    They stifle their personalities because some qualities are valued by the PC more then others. If followers listen to enough cds they talk like one. You can see that throughout this blog. Speaking the language cuts down ones ability to think. Critically, they are taught a (stop thinking) answer to all critical questions about the group. Very Scary. They already know you will call it a cult, a pyramid, etc. They have an answer almost from the first meeting they attend. The speaker handles it with humor, relatability and deceptive information. Critics on the internet are unknown people, why would you believe them. Walmart has critica, but millions still shop there. (THE DIFFERENCE IS THEY ARE TRYING TO SILENCE THEIR CRITICS BY THREATS AND/or GIVING THEIR CUSTOMERS CDS FULL OF PROPAGANDA ABOUT HOW GREAT WALMART IS! ) sorry for the caps.

  205. webelieved permalink
    September 8, 2012 11:20 am

    Typo. They are NOT trying to silence critics or feed customers hours of daily propaganda cds about how great Walmart is.

  206. webelieved permalink
    September 8, 2012 11:24 am

    Walmart also doesn’t tell you over and over don’t look at anything outside of my store, but Life does!

  207. Soon2BOut permalink
    September 8, 2012 7:22 pm

    Ugh, I hated sitting on the floor part of the arena during majors. You couldn’t even cat nap…because everyone would then see you. If I tried to sit up with the rest of my team, id get yelled at. It was supposed to make me look cooler, and more powerful if I sat with all the “huge leaders”. It was always too cold or too hot on the floor…and the seats. UGH, so uncomfortable. And of course, we were expected to stand up and cheer for EVERYONE. I got some very dirty looks once because I had to go to the bathroom during Orrin’s speech. Like, how could I dare go to the bathroom during God…err I mean, Orrin’s speech.

  208. webelieved permalink
    September 9, 2012 2:59 am

    Soon2Bout- lol! God…..lol! I remeber those days, I too wanted to sit with my team. I also remeber my grand poobah up line never sitting on the floor! haha! (Explanation: if you are a Power Player, a level of work and purchases in the business, you get to sit on the floor at the major seminars) . I loved how you said it was so you looked more powerful and cooler! In my opinion it is was a way to put pressure on us to perform. Rewards and punishment for the leaders. Work, work, off to work we went for the top. uggh….

  209. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    September 9, 2012 6:14 am

    Soon2BOut: Potential bad news for me……”Thank you Chris and Terri Brady for serving the team in WI! Standing room only!” (Dan Hawkins)

    https://twitter.com/#!/danhawkinsteam/media/slideshow?url=pic.twitter.com%2FpuA0x9Va&utm_source=fb&utm_medium=fb&utm_campaign=danhawkinsteam&utm_content=244582074076495872

  210. webelieved permalink
    September 9, 2012 7:21 am

    Well don’t worry, next month the numbers will be down again. That is what happens when Brady or Woodward come to one’s town. They hype it up, pick up all the ones hanging on a string, then next month most of them won’t come back. 🙂
    Also everything is hyped up and embellished to make it look bigger then it is. They are professionals at this. Nothing is really as your led to believe in my experience and observations.

  211. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    September 9, 2012 12:36 pm

    webelieved: no, I was talking about being able to find my family member at the meeting….there were so many there….

  212. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    September 9, 2012 12:54 pm

    Hey, you guys: did you know that TEAM/Life now has a part in this online Canadian university? They give the LIFE Mental Fitness Challenge there, according to Woodward:

    http://www.cluonline.com/section1.htm

  213. webelieved permalink
    September 9, 2012 1:04 pm

    Oh jeez….Orrin’s out selling his wares!

  214. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    September 9, 2012 1:43 pm

    Yikes! webelieved: it’s a full online Christian course!

  215. webelieved permalink
    September 9, 2012 2:35 pm

    Is it a mail in degree? 🙂

  216. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    September 9, 2012 3:14 pm

    webelieved: Online “degree”

  217. webelieved permalink
    September 9, 2012 3:46 pm

    I was being sarcastic. :b

  218. webelieved permalink
    September 10, 2012 2:51 am

    Team/LIFE is listed under the alphabetical list of GROUPS, on Cult Expert Steve Hassan’s website,
    http://www.freedomofmind.com
    I believe many of us could add information to the entry. I will also recommend they list it under LIFE/ Team since Orrin keeps changing the name. Typical of Information control and another red flag of a destructive group. Team of Destiny, Team, Team Leadership, Team Monavie, Team Life, Life Team, Mental Fitness Challenge…… I wonder what’s next…

  219. Speak Your Truth permalink
    September 18, 2012 4:04 pm

    Wisdom~

    How are you doing with your son? Has he quit yet?

  220. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    September 19, 2012 5:03 am

    Speak: honestly do not know….have a few people here trying to find out, too—so far, we haven’t found anyone who’s been solicited to join—unless because of me, it’s all been kept hush-hush. I don’t know if this is good or bad—knowing him, it’d be more likely for him to get out early on if he keeps getting people who’d refuse to join.

  221. Speak Your Truth permalink
    September 19, 2012 5:46 am

    Wisdom~

    I believe you are right although I doubt anything could be kept hush-hush because it is pretty hard to do when you are a “recruiter” and a proud one at that; you have to shout from the roof tops you are involved with something ‘changing your life.’

    More than likely if his “names list” has ran out(haha because of you) then he would have to resort to “cold contacting” (strangers). That takes twice as long to find ‘a’ person and is not very productive, because you lose the “trust” factor. People are on to the scam.:)This is when most start to get discouraged because they can’t “get anyone to cjoin”.

  222. Speak Your Truth permalink
    September 19, 2012 5:47 am

    “join” not cjoin. It is just a matter of time. :)Hope things quickly turn around for you.

  223. Soon2BOut permalink
    September 19, 2012 12:51 pm

    Wisdom, check your mail :).

    I want to meet him. Face to face. I got a way for that to happen.

  224. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    September 19, 2012 2:33 pm

    I checked my mail….nothing from you….

  225. Soon2BOut permalink
    September 19, 2012 7:46 pm

    i re-sent it. check it soon.

  226. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    September 22, 2012 12:47 pm

    LOL!! Woodward is at it again…on 9/1712, he’s he starts out quoting Albert Einstein (on financial compounding of interest) in launching into a big, explanatory leadership blog, using the analogy of hand-pumping at an old-fashioned well (i.e., the point is: to keep on trying no matter what and that it should become the 9th wonder of the world, no less!) ….but what he’s forgetting to tell the others in this analogy…sometimes, baby, the well is DRY and you could pump ’til you DIE. Just another method to get people to stick with it to pump more money up to the top. He’s simply amazing! They stop at nothing with the propaganda…in the rest of the blog, he goes on and on about how today’s advertisers are snowing people–what a hoot! We all know the history of advertising to the masses, but at least most times the advertisers are selling tangible commodities.

    Here’s my favorite quote from the claptrap:

    “By continuously working the handle up and down, one would eventually hear and feel the pump prime itself and draw water to the surface. In contrast, if at anytime during the priming process, the person responsible for working the handle became despondent or lackadaisical because of repeated efforts without water, the prime would not hold, and the process had to be repeated from the beginning. To achieve results then, one must pump repeatedly, ignoring the lack of evidential progress, until the well water is borne up from the well.”

    And PS, folks…in this same blog, he wants to save civilization again, but this time he’s attacking work ethic instead of all of the wrong educations we got! LOL!!

    “Nevertheless, I refuse to give up hope or sit idly by and watch our once great civilization quietly decline. In reality, we can turn this around if we are willing to apply a heavy dose of thinking and work ethic.”

    http://orrinwoodwardblog.com/

    [Editor’s Note: added blockquotes]

  227. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    September 22, 2012 1:04 pm

    And let’s not forget the HBRN video….I did not hear Cluade Hamilton or Orrin Woodward say even ONE thing of substance here……I wouldn’t be surprised if Woodward isn’t behind the moderator and radio network, too.

    “The Home Business Radio Network made history today with the launch of The Leadership Factory with Leadership Guru Orrin Woodward! ” (quote on Utube underneath video)

  228. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    October 16, 2012 9:05 am

    Elizabeth posted this over on the anti-LIFE/Team fB page. This is an excellent, general review of cult-type businesses which exist and what happens to various individuals and who prime targets are, etc.:

    http://creepyhollowsawareness.wordpress.com/cult-like-business-practices/

  229. Melanie Morgan permalink
    October 16, 2012 12:38 pm

    Great Article. 🙂 Wonder WHY they never address the “cult” issue? Hmm….

    That video is a perfect example of a narcissistic personality, and self-deception, with a lot of stroking of ego’s or arse kissing to be blunt. Orrin states either peopl(e love him or hate him because he tells them the truth? UM…self-deceived for sure, he ought to check his own “score board” (remember it doesn’t LIE) and if he doesn’t know what the “score” is he ought to call up every single leader who left and ask them if it was because he told them the TRUTH….Astounding the self-deception!

    Think real hard about WHY, ALL those leaders left! But hey he will continue to lie to himself, what ever takes to deceive the masses and himself or makes him feel better, denial will always be on his side!

  230. Tracy Joslin permalink
    March 20, 2016 12:15 pm

    Everyone on here sounds like a bunch of cry babies. The books I read are from successful people, out there for everyone to read. The one thing I have not heard on here is a way to become financially free or financially successful. Everyone can be a critic but it takes a leader to come up with a solution. Everything has its negatives and positives. I choose to focus on the positives. I am a better person because of the Amway business and the Yager system.

  231. amused permalink
    March 22, 2016 6:07 pm

    Seriously? You haven’t heard anyone on here anywhere suggest a way to be financially free or successful? Then you haven’t really been paying attention. So pay attention now:
    A) Get a job doing something you like that pays well and budget your money properly and responsibly so you’re not in debt.
    B) Do you look down your nose at the idea of having a job? (gasp!) You want to be your own boss? Fine, then start your own legitimate business doing something you enjoy and be the boss.

    There’s two suggestions that are a better way than being a slave to an mlm company. Mathematically, unless you are the one that starts the mlm and you sit at the top of the triangle shaped company structure, you will never succeed financially in this. And you will waste an awful lot of your time and money trying.

    And there’s been plenty of people on here that have said this kind of stuff over and over and over, so just stop with that tired “argument” that is supposed to justify the so-called validity of working your mlm company. “Oh yeah, well what’s better?” A real job! Your own business!

  232. freedomhaha permalink
    March 23, 2016 7:34 am

    Tracy- Leaving a cult that sucked my money and started my OWN (not Orrin’s) business was a great start.

  233. Frank R permalink
    March 23, 2016 3:27 pm

    Federal Securities Law rules ViSalus a Pyramid Scheme.

  234. Anonymous permalink
    March 24, 2016 3:27 am

    I found this article on gullibility – some of it’s points hit home on mlm recruitment.

    http://www.bbc.com/future/story/20160323-why-are-people-so-incredibly-gullible

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