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Warning Signs For Your Friend/Family Member is Under Undue Influence

August 27, 2012

On the Freedom of Mind website, there’s an evaluation checklist that one can use to determine if a friend of family member has gotten themselves involved in a cult-like situation. As Freedom of Mind’s Steven Hassan points out, this could happen in a variety of contexts: “religious, political, therapy, education, business.” This blog is focused on MLMs, and the checklist definitely applies here.

New commenter @AgeOfWisdom51 (formerly @MustHaveBeenTerribleMother), recently posted her thoughts after observing the changes in her son following his involvement with TEAM/LIFE. Does this checklist look familiar to you?

@webelieved, @Calie etal, and to the others who helped us to get to good sources of information to help us understand what happened to us this summer as family members of a loved one being drawn into team/LIFE–this is what we have found, and the data collected just is what it is and as long as it is–can’t be helped:

Next, it goes without saying: many thanks to Steve Hassan’s ‘Freedom of Mind Resource Center’–this site has begun to help us to understand what has happened to our loved one being sucked into the vortex of Team/LIFE, even as a newbie:

The evaluation checklist to see if our loved one is under ‘UNDUE INFLUENCE’ (to not get hung up on the word ‘cult’ as Hassan suggests).

Here are some of the EARLY warning signs—we’ve picked out those that apply specifically to what we have seen in our own family member in just the early phases of involvement in team/LIFE, i.e., the “motivational indoctrination”, to one degree or another (some were subtle changes):

Hassan uses 4 major categories of: Change in Prior Commitments; Financial; Radical Personality Change and Health. From those we saw these points to be true:

  1. change in prior commitments: yes
  2. change in goals: yes
  3. change in relationships: yes
  4. financial repeated surrendering of money for group sponsored events: yes
  5. change in physical appearance: yes
  6. personality change: secretive, evasive, defensive behavior: yes
  7. personality change: from analytical to magical thinking: yes
  8. personality change: move toward a proselytizing behavior: yes
  9. personality change: judgmental attitude toward family members: yes
  10. personality change: change in level of honesty: yes
  11. personal habits: change from tardy to punctual or vice versa if organization made demands: yes
  12. personal habits: change from irresponsible to responsible and vice versa: yes
  13. communication style: defensiveness and evasiveness: yes
  14. communication style: use of canned speech and buzzwords: yes
  15. relationships: family preached to as though they need to be saved: yes
  16. relationships: more time spent with group: yes
  17. career: radical changes in goals: yes
  18. career: abruptly ends career: yes (wants to soon)
  19. health: sleep deprivation: yes

We don’t know what the future holds–we are now in a ‘holding pattern’ position to see if our loved one will fall deeper into the vortex.

As newbies to this nightmare, we can only suggest this: before you do much of anything else:

1) Read the links offered on Amthrax. Learn the money-making methods and odds of success and read the stories of those affected;

2) read Eric Scheibeler’s online book: Merchants of Deception (about his 10 year meteoric rise and subsequent crash in Dexter Yager’s version of Amway (and note: you may find reference to a court case out there where Eric may have been pressured in a suit to back off on one or two of his claims–just remember, he’s not the only one his journey happened to, i.e., lawsuits popped up around the country.).

Keep in mind: If you think the hidden side (the motivational tool side of a business being the actual money-making scheme instead of selling renewable product to an end consumer side) , the Dexter Yager–the U.S. mastermind creator “motivational tools’ in Amway–has nothing to do with team/LIFE, you’d be very wrong. Team/LIFE’s founding principles are lock/stock/barrel, Dexter Yager’s. The current iteration of LIFE is only a new spin-off of what has existed for decades on end, albeit quite refined.

3) Then, after you recover from the shock of Eric Scheibeler’s journey, look at the education/training/recovery sites he recommends, such as Hassan’s.

Will you be guaranteed solace? No. But you will be forearmed and your preconceived notions about everybody and everything associated with this entity known as LIFE (or team/LIFE) will be in the trash can.

However, you will be building the strength and knowledge of how to counter the fallout that made you an indirect victim of ‘undue influence’ in the motivation explosion which is covering nothing but a scheme to sell motivational materials and build wealth for the almost-negligible few near the top.

What other warning signs of undue influences can you list? Leave your thoughts in the comments discussion below.

147 Comments leave one →
  1. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    August 27, 2012 3:41 pm

    @Amthrax: thanks for doing this. To others: be aware that Steve Hassan’s site has more checklist warnings–we just picked out the ones displayed very early by our family member.

  2. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    August 27, 2012 5:04 pm

    @webelieved–yeah, it’s nice to be in an, um, safe zone? LOL! Now we can cult away or whatever….here’s where I discovered we were dealing with something odd:

    From a parental perspective, here’s how the “undue influence” began in a moment of time we’ll never forget: The first inkiing we had that ‘something was up’ was a change in attitude and personal habit–sounds simple but it would later be very telling–our loved one had a sudden over-concern that his work vehicle did not look good enough (had some rust on edges, etc.) , saying things like having an “image to project,” (doing what he was doing? didn’t make sense at that point) yet we were given side-reasons for needing something different, too (we agreed with these side reasons, especially safety factors, but we were not really moved to help financially until we saw his unhappiness and agitation increase dramatically in a short period of time, and no, he did not ask for money).

    SO: Suddenly, appearances became important to someone nearing middle age himself, where he had never really been like that before, especially in what he was doing with the work vehicle.

    When I read Merchants of Deception (regarding the author’s near-destruction over Dex Yager’s developed motivation methodologies), and when I realized that’s where Woodward and Brady came out of originally, too, it was like a slap upside the head), and when I watched videos by Team/Lifers and saw how people were dressed, the buzz words, the ideologies, etc…..was all the reason I could pinpoint the exact moment when the undue influence started. It was just the first whiff of smoke before the oxygen of motivational indoctrination really came knocking.

  3. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    August 27, 2012 5:08 pm

    webelieved: yeah, hey, tell your more detailed story—you’ve probably done it a hundred times, but why not one more? And who cares how long it is! I would leave to hear this….

  4. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    August 27, 2012 7:17 pm

    Are you talking about Mon Avie? Your story sure sounds like the same tactics used during Eric’s saga of being in Amway. What were they asking people to do as they got higher up the list in teh organization when you were in it?

  5. Soon2BOut permalink
    August 27, 2012 8:49 pm

    age, where do you live? like, what state? if you don’t mind asking.

  6. August 28, 2012 3:58 am

    Wisdom – best of luck to your family – when I was a newbie I would have answered yes to a lot of those same questions, but hopefully someone or something, either inside or outside of TEAM/LIFE, will shake your son out of his delirium.

  7. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    August 28, 2012 4:46 am

    @webelieved: wow, you gotta tell me more about the transition from Quixtar to MonAvie. Can you be more specific about the time period where you started to get disillusioned ?

    @Katie: can you think of any other way you think you’d changed in the first 3 months of being in? When I look back now, I see that our loving, best of intentions in helping he and his family out actually set him up to be in a better position to get involved here (freed up some cash;etc) The bad part is: his own boss/owner from his job got him involved! WHO can talk him out of this? It’s bizarre—like he said: he found the answers to the Universe with these people, just listening to them talk, reading their books and listening to their CDs for a few weeks.

    @Soon2BOut: SE Wisconsin; my son has already been to Hawkins’s new mansion—this happened a few weeks after the big meeting at the Bradley Center. I live north of Milw. My son would be in: team STEALTH, or so it looks to be called.

  8. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    August 28, 2012 5:11 am

    Continuation of how we got the 19 points chosen from the initial thread post: what we saw 2nd, after the initial uncharacteristic concern over appearances or as loved one put it: “an image to project” (I thought this was wierd! BUT, it makes sense now because his everyday boss, you know, the one who gave him a hated/loser JOB, is also the man who got him into LIFE–go figure).

    I began seeing him actually WATCH me…every word I said, every move I made, and many times he just seemed to “zone out” as if something was on his mind or he was so tired he was a walking zombie. AND I saw some complaints about the JOB start. (you know: what the mind-bend buffoons refer to as Just Over Broke. (At this point, I don’t realize what he’s into yet, BUT I told the spouse: watch and see, he’s going to want to quit this JOB now after we got the vehicle for him–something was ‘in the air’ but his usually-astute Mommy still didn’t realize he was slipping into a black hole)

    Soon, I see him getting more and more critical of those around him, but it seemed, especially women. (Well, sure! The mind-bend buffoons want submissive spouses!)

    Mixed in with all of these oddities, I see him practicing very controlled temper (what a hoot!!), i.e., stuff like “yesssssss, mother” in a real controlled tone, and to me, in a condescending manner at times, but not all of the time–sometimes it was really sincere and nice and well, just plain refreshing (example: he may well have said this condescendingly if I even said something as innocent as: ‘oh, hey, don’t forget to take that blanket along home’ or some such thing in picking up my grandchild from me after work).

    So, things are getting closer now, to the week of the final rift….

  9. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    August 28, 2012 6:17 am

    Note to all: just remember, y’all can jump in with your own stories at any time—I do NOT want to monopolize or make it look to newbies dropping in that this thread isn’t for them, too, i.e., just a few talking to each other as if we’re emailing back and forth. ANY constructive commentary is welcome that’s on anyone’s mine. (@webelieved: in a later post, I’ll tell you about the relationship with son, etc.)

    As for my own posts on the 19 points, am just breaking them up into a pieced story that’s as long as Mesha’s on her thread. My point here is: I want to get to the point where some of you who saw all of my posts as ‘MustHaveBeenTerribleMother’, realize what an angry mental state I had sunk to, where I was mentally when I began to look at Woodward’s etals, philosophical and religiously twisted underpinnings that cloak the money scheme. A lot of my ranting and surmising would have been unnecessary if ONLY I had read ‘Merchants of Deception’ FIRST.

    Initially, when I found Amthrax, I thought I had to defend and bellow my intellect, education, life experience, and Catholic-turned-Atheist belief system, etc. I was reeling in an inferno of indignation over what had been spewed at me from a grown man, the one human being closest to my heart, who now thought LIFE had the answers to the problems of the universe and I was just a stupid J.O.B.’r with no vision. What happened after that was: some thought I was trying to talk themselves out of THEIR own belief system, etc., and some posting on Amthrax thought trying to get to the underlying belief system propaganda of LIFE was a waste of time, because showing the flaws of the money scheme should be enough to stop people.

  10. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    August 28, 2012 6:57 am

    webelieved: in your last few posts, you spoke of the mind-bending techniques, and the bastardization of family relationships, the rigid expectations, the education changes (which can reduce outside influences), the submission, social isolation and possible marginalizing of family members, etc.

    FOR NEW PEOPLE HERE: this, my friends, is EXACTLY what Dexter Yager of the dark side of Amway developed as motivational material/training for the hidden portion, the supposed-to-not-be portion of one side of Amway, i.e., the distributor leadership side of a business where no more than 10% of any money coming in was to be “earned” from tapes and indoctrination and expectations.

    FOR NEW PEOPLE HERE: Orrin Woodward and Chris Brady n Bunch came out of first, AMWAY, then Amway/Quixtar (supposed to be a new focus in online; Woodward etal would eventually sue Quixtar, claiming it, too, was a pyramid scheme), and then rolled that into Mon Avie (the $40/bottle juice selling scandal where even Oprah WInfrey would sue), and now, voila, we’ve got Team/Life. Since his days in Amway, Woodward has always used the basic foundation indoctrination tenets of Dexter Yager (who by the way, according to his own website is still alive and well, filthy rich and in organizations run by Amway).

    FOR THE NEW PEOPLE HERE: read Merchants of Deception—and it all becomes crystal clear….ALL of it……just the “poohbah” position names have changed; and this has changed, too: now there’s not really any tangible product like floor cleaners and vacuum cleaners to sell yourself or customers. Woodward has, quite “miraculously” managed to create a borderline hidden pyramid scheme, where members buying cheap-to-produce paper and CDs, is what sustains the ultra-wealthy at the top.

    FOR THE NEW PEOPLE HERE: what’s some main differences between Amway (the most powerful MLM business on the planet, and who’s been getting sued since the 1970’s) and LIFE?

    1) Amway still sells real, albeit overpriced renewable products to end-consumers, like make-up, cleaning products, etc. (Even their own distributors in the past never realized that most of the money they DID get–and there wasn’t much to be had if you weren’t at least a Double Diamond level or a supreme toady—came from the hidden materials/meetings/tapes sales to other distributors in their downlines, etc.)

    2) Amway’s owners pooh-pooh the idea of the indoctrination portion (but ol’ Dexter Yager continues to thrive), and yet, and for example from Merchants of Deception: their ultra top “Crown Diamonds” level distributors could, for example, make almost 3 million bucks a year on the “team development side of it” while, in essence, only $130,000 came from their downline portion of the bonus in the actual, bonafide legal sales of tangible goods!

    3) Woodward has figured out a scheme by where the formerly “illegal” or “hidden side” now becomes legal: you are no longer a distributor with a vested interest in your own business—now you are an “independent contractor”; they blast how you can just get into it for yourself and try to enrich your family/faith life and not sell to others—of course, there’s no money to be made at that, AND they give a 30-day money back guarantee. Things like this allow Woodward to consider people in the hidden pyramid just “end consumers”. Ergo: it’s legal.

  11. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    August 28, 2012 7:57 am

    webelieved: ahhhhhhh, my favorite topic: the bringing in of Christianity into MLMs as the glue to why you should follow the Pied Pipers of Deceit (egad, In Sheibeler’s book, the character of his upline known as Zack was either:

    FRED and LINDA HARTEIS, husband and wife; HARTIES ENTERPRISES, INC., a Pennsylvania Corporation;

    LOUIS and JEAN MAZZANTE, husband and wife;

    LEE and LINDA FESSLER, husband and wife;
    TO NEW PEOPLE COMING TO THIS THREAD: most of Merchants of Deception–no kidding, on most pages–you can read how the unidentifiable upline (i.e., the wicked taskmaster above Eric and Pat Scheibeler who were at Emerald distributor status in the Amway heirarchy and about to “go Diamond” status when it all came crashing down), show interwoven concepts of what turned out to be bastardized tenets of all of the parts that any one religion could be good about.

  12. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    August 28, 2012 7:59 am

    ADDENDUM: my data on who ZACK was came right from a formal Civil complaint for COURT OF COMMON PLEAS LYCOMING COUNTY–it is available on the Internet…

  13. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    August 28, 2012 8:49 am

    @webelieved: you bring up one word that needs to be hammered into anyone who must be here for a reason: THE CONCEPT OF POWER / POWERFUL.

    JUST A FEW EXAMPLES: it got so tawdry in the “motivational aspect” of Amway, i.e., the leadership-selling side that included: tapes, tons of meetings and getaways, etc., (that actually had Eric Sheibeler end up with 4—4!!!!–mortgages on his house, even at the Emerald-Poohbah level) that closed-door meetings that were taped by Scheibeler in his time of deep Post Traumatic Stress Syndrome and having a TRUE “coming to the Jesus of his beloved religion) actually have “Zack” (who is either Louis Mazzante or Fred Harteis or Lee Fessler–all 3 named in the complaint –source: Scheibeler’s Pennsylvania complaint that was filed and is available on the Internet)—–anyway, Zack actually started telling people when to have and how many times per day to have sex with their spouses! Zack actually claimed that “God” was telling him to say things to distributors in “Fire Up” meetings.

    FOLKS: Team or LIFE indoctrination/soul focus to get/hold members/non-members…by any other name, is still the original brain-child of Dexter Yager, who was the god-like guru of Zack, etal. There are stories in Merchants of Deception enough to curdle your blood….especially when people like Zack and Yager had, by then some years ago, actually started to BELIEVE their own hype enough to say in meetings: “God told me to say this to you.” (only what was spewing out of his mouth was worse than what anyone’s concept of a “Satan” could muster. It got so bad, that even Scheibeler in his book reached a point where he said he couldn’t repeat it anymore.

    IN READING ERIC’S BOOK, Merchants of Deception, I KNOW THAT posters like “webelieved” and others speak the truth! Besides, the ol’ lady here knows that thousands can’t be making stuff up over “sour grapes” —-the truth is out here.

    The problem is: egomaniacal as Woodward is: he KNOWS he needs to become as big as Amway to NOT have his latest scheme eventually force another iteration of the business. Hence, his attempts to get everyone convinced that all of the great minds from Socrates’s Ancient World up on through Thomas Jefferson and into the 20th Century USA and the “lazy” mother getting food stamps are ALL of the reasons Western Civilzation is in decay. It is ALL corrupted, and that has grains of truth in it: but he sees himself as a CULTURE AND BUSINESS MESSIAH/

    Note: he also needs the UNDUE INFLUENCE of political clout to have his own political action committe like the Amway founders, or have his picture taken with 6 presidents and visiting dignitaries like Dex and Birdie have. Amway has clout–true political clout by toadying up to powerful Republicans and business/policy leaders around the globe, AND seek out testimoney from religious leaders, etc. Amway is in 80+ countries around the world (and people in those countries are writing expose’ books, too).

    They aim it at Christians. Why? Because it’s a huge sect of a billion people–the people with the money they themselves can relate to. That way, they don’t have to put up with differences with Buddhists, Moslems, Non-believers, etc.

    THINK THEY ARE NOT PREJUDICED? Ask Eric Scheibeler: he has taped proof from behind closed doors that minority groups were NOT welcome. Woodward etal may not feel so rabid about it…….but I’m sure they don’t have a “non-denominational-belief” policy, either.

    Tongue in cheek: I’m sure if Woodward tried to solicit the Dali Lama, he’d be in for a let-down.

  14. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    August 28, 2012 8:53 am

    prior post major typo corrections: soul=sole; testimoney = testimony (but maybe the misprint on the last one should be left–LOL!!)

  15. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    August 28, 2012 9:10 am

    @webelieved: you said: “The sad part is, Wisdom’s son and others will be told that people on this site are lying, yet their is documentation to prove it.”

    BINGO!! Let me jump down the 19 points to final rift day between mother and son, and paraphrase what got yelled at me when I said ‘no’ to a membership.



    He had already been indoctrinated within the first few months to pooh-pooh anything on the Internet ………which can only lead me to this: did my own kid forget I’m really NOT stupid? That there are legal documents on the internet, too? See how duped he was just two months into this nightmare?

  16. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    August 28, 2012 9:55 am

    A Pennsylvania complaint filed against Amway distributor bigwigs can be found at this address on the web…you just have to add the ‘www.’ to it. Read it was find out what the fraud complaints really were!

  17. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    August 28, 2012 10:12 am

    Here’s another internet source to read about the tactics of these MLMs, and remember, you add the ‘www.’ to the link:

  18. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    August 28, 2012 10:14 am

    Here’s another internet source to read about the tactics of MLMs—well, looky here, some people in Europe are fed up, too! Again: you add the ‘www.’ to the link:

  19. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    August 28, 2012 10:16 am

    And just to show ya, Quixtar had a 2010 complaint against Woodwards, too. Again: you add the ‘www.’ to the link (or the http://):

  20. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    August 28, 2012 10:19 am

    Ahhhh, a little Biblical reference here: find out more about our ‘false prophets/profits’ of pyramids and MLMS; you add the ‘http://www.’ to the link::

  21. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    August 28, 2012 10:30 am

    Oh, well looky here MLMrs get litigious with one another…Woodward and Bradys etal are now PLAINTIFFS in this APPEALS case in 2010) (all but two families involved had names deleted by me here for brevity–deleted except LIFE’s biggest bigwigs–big list of them at the site):



    What’s this about? Go to: (you add the http://)

    Here’s the background–a quote from legal records::

    “Background The Appellants are individuals who were Independent Business Owners, commonly known as IBO’s, in a multi-level marketing operation owned and run by Quixtar.

    1 Quixtar’s multi-level marketing operation recruits IBO’s who sell Quixtar’s health and beauty products online. IBO’s also earn money by recruiting other new IBO’s (“Downstream IBO’s”) and receiving a bonus based on the sales of their Downstream IBO’s. All IBO’s pay an annual fee and sign an annual contract with Quixtar. Among other things, the contract contains an arbitration provision, a code of conduct, a confidentiality provision, and a non-compete clause.

    The relationship between the Appellants and Quixtar became strained.

    According to Quixtar, the Appellants began soliciting Downstream IBO’s to leave Quixtar and join other multi-level marketing operations, in part by disparaging the Quixtar opportunity.

    In 2007, three of the Appellants, Ron Simmons, Lisa Simmons, and Charles Scott (the “Simmons Appellants”) demanded arbitration (the “Simmons Arbitration”) against Quixtar to challenge the enforceablity of the non-compete agreement.

    Quixtar counterclaimed, asserting causes of action for (1) breach of contract, (2) tortious interference with existing contract, (3) tortious interference with advantageous business relationships, (4) misappropriation of trade secrets, and (5) violations of the Lanham Act.

    At about the same time, Quixtar initiated separate arbitration proceedings (the “Woodward Arbitraion”) against the remaining Appellants (the “Woodward Appellants”) alleging the same causes of action, minus the Lanham Act claim. Both groups of Appellants Case: 09-41123 Document: 00511428814 Page: 3 Date Filed: 03/30/2011 claim that Liberty Mutual owed them a defense in their respective arbitrations per the terms of the policy. Liberty Mutual disagreed. ”

  22. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    August 28, 2012 10:33 am

    Go to this website to see the back and forth arguments in court proceedings between Amway/Quixtar and those who were trying to break away: You add the ( http://)

  23. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    August 28, 2012 10:37 am

    And now look and see how Messianic Woodward etal went after “anonymous online speakers”

    You add the ( http:// )

  24. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    August 28, 2012 10:40 am

    correction to above link on the anonymous speaker suit: that was Quixtar going after Woody etal and gets really convoluted

  25. Soon2BOut permalink
    August 28, 2012 11:39 am

    Miss Wisdom, the reason why I asked is because I know huge leaders on the Hawkins team. Please feel free to email me, I can get these ‘soon2bout’ leaders as well to talk him out of it.

    anyone else can email me too 🙂

  26. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    August 28, 2012 12:13 pm

    @Soon: wrote to you

    @webelieved: bwhahahahha! I don’t even notice others’ typos anymore after being on here a few weeks….I just did that other one because of “testimoney” vs “testimony”.

    @webelieved: I can’t do the links because my own computer won’d let me do it in the blog box…it blanks out every time….go figure.

    And on another note: they wanted you to go to a certain Church?!!!!!!!!!! Are you kidding me?!!!!!!!!!!! Baptist, I bet, eh?


    I plug in Woodward’s name…get a special search site….hit it again…first thing that comes up:

    VOILA!!! TERMINIX (trademark business) EXTERMINATION!!! LOL!!

    It happened every time…it was a “newsorganizer” site.

  27. August 28, 2012 12:14 pm

    Putting in links is fine in your comments. Be aware that posting multiple links (over three) may cause the comment to go into moderation.

  28. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    August 28, 2012 12:16 pm

    Amthrax: first I have to find out from you: if I post a clickable link to Federal or State legal papers, could I be sued for misuse of that info? I mean, dont’cha think they might want to silence folks one way or another?

  29. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    August 28, 2012 12:21 pm

    test post to my joke of the day to see if this link will post this time; I’ve never tried to post 3 in a row, so I don’t know WHY some of my stuff blasts off into cyberspace:

  30. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    August 28, 2012 12:23 pm

    Hey!! I just used that link from the AMthrax site, and this time, TERMINIX was #2 on the list….above that, they offered to seel me arrest records–LOL!

  31. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    August 28, 2012 12:41 pm

    For others: (and Soon2BOut: you can use addy I gave you privately but it’s my business one–have been an eBay manufacturing seller for years now after I became too disabled to continue in high tech nursing) here’s another addy others can use–I think one of these still works:

  32. August 28, 2012 3:28 pm

    If these are publicly available documents, I think you are in the clear to post them.

  33. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    August 28, 2012 3:48 pm

    @webelieved: trolls…yeah, I know….that’s okay….I’m ready to post my name/address/picture and everything to BEG someone to help me get the loved out out of LIFE/team STEALTH before it’s too late…found YOUNG locals on facebook with this.

    Hey, you know what? I think there’s private websites out there where they can go rant, and info is kept on their own servers….

  34. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    August 28, 2012 5:25 pm

    webelieved: yup, that’s fine with me, too. Doesn’t he routinely check that to look for trolls?

  35. Soon2BOut permalink
    August 28, 2012 6:45 pm

    yup. leaders get annoyed too. no growth, new lies, same people on tuesday nights, blah blah blah. I wouldn’t post any names here until they’re done.

  36. Cali permalink
    August 28, 2012 6:57 pm

    I just got so angry reading through this. I cannot believe they are getting away with this. It’s so messed up!

    @wisdom: I am sorry if I missed it but is your son’s wife on board?

  37. Kris permalink
    August 28, 2012 11:23 pm

    Thank you, Amthrax, and all those who have commented. Although it was too much to read through every comment, even skimming them certainly gave me the information I needed.

    A friend approached me with “an exciting business opportunity” a few weeks ago, and I met with him and his “friend” (a TEAM leader) last weekend. I listened, took some information, and we set up a follow-up meeting for tomorrow night. I haven’t been able to get the whole thing off my mind, and have been very apprehensive about whether or not joining LIFE would be a good move. My family is in desperate need of a financial turn-around, so my desire for another source of income and my fear of getting caught in a trap have been consistently battling it out since the first meeting.

    After reading the comments here, I can already see how joining would affect the person I have worked so hard to become. I don’t like the idea of pushing products on people, and had wondered how it would affect the relationships in my life. The idea of me becoming a door-to-door-vacuum-salesman type person made me sick to my stomach, but I could see how I’d have to do just that if I took up my friend on this “opportunity”. Your comments have brought light to all of my concerns, and that in itself is enough to make me turn and run.

    Thank you again! I feel confident that at the meeting tomorrow, I will be making the right choice when I tell them “Thanks, but no thanks.”

  38. August 29, 2012 2:03 am

    I do not know much about MoonaVie, i heard that it is Amway like company producing some so called health drinks through which financial freedome is achieved? I also read that, every person in this planet will come across some kind of MLM at some point of time. I would like to add couple of things to the above list to allow IBOs to think beyond amway and read – Amway Business reference Guide as well as The Truth Behind Smoke and Mirros of Multi Level Marketing. If you need to quickly you come to my blog and check out how badly I suffered during my tenure.

  39. Brent Hansen permalink
    August 29, 2012 2:20 am

    @Webelieved, You wrote, “Then when he sued Amway, they asked everyone in Team, on the wisper campaign, to write a notarized confession to our Attorney General that we had zero customers and Amway was a pyramid scheme!”

    I think if copies of these “notarized” confessions were available you can doctor them to erase the names on the document, and have Amthrax post them on this blog. This would be a very powerful piece of evidence as almost anyone involved knew they had zero customers, yet continued to click the customer/client reporting button claiming they did.

    Interesting however is the fact that if you read through Amway’s rules, they hang the burden of proof on the Platinum distributors. Ironic that a multi-billion dollar company would hold Platinums (people inside the pyramid) responsible, and liable to police the distributor force, shouldn’t the company figure out a better way? It is crazy that they are the ones who are given the charge to make sure all distributors are compliant.

    I think a PDF copy of anything provided would be great documentation. Names could be whited out, but it would help further expose the lies.


  40. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    August 29, 2012 2:41 am

    @AmwayQuitter: not sure I follow you. Where is your blog located? Could you post a link here?

    Also: not sure what you meant by “think beyond Amway”—it’s hard to “think beyond it” when Woodward and Brady etal, were IN it and then in Quixtar, and then in Mona Vie, and now team/LIFE. Did you just mean that there’s other sources to read out there on MLMs in general?

  41. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    August 29, 2012 4:13 am


    Did you ever wonder what the insider lingo means/stands for? Mostly it’s in reference to the level of achievement people have reached in a multi-level marketing business (an MLM). (Note: the Mon Avie juice business is referred to as MV)

    Example: in Amway, they had levels like: Ruby, Emerald, Diamond, Double-Diamonds, etc. (to name a few)

    In LIFE, it’s just a convoluted way of figuring out your status and pay (known as a commission bonus), and remember, in most levels in LIFE, your status is also dependent on quarterly sales, too, i.e., you can hit a sales level for 1 month; 3 month; 6 month, or achieve it for all 12 months.

    So levels have 4 internal-tier levels, too, and I won’t bother repeating them in this list.
    These internal 4-tier levels hold true for all levels (which allows them to not give bonuses or give bonuses on a quarterly basis)

    NOTE ABOUT SELLING VOLUME: In the LIFE system, most of the time, but not always: 1 PV (which stands for Personal Volume) equals $1.00 (sometimes a little more).

    First, what I call: the PEON level: If you come into LIFE and bring in 3 more members in the first 6 months you are in it: your “bonus” is $7.50. They use increasing percentages for increased volume (see Mike Collins’s work elsewhere on Amthrax)

    LEADER: there are 2 ways to qualify: but here’s a quote from the LIFE compensation plan first: “Once a member has generated 15,000 PV or 50% on the bonus chart in a single month, they have achieved the first level of leadership within the LIFE business and become a Leader.”

    1) through customer and member sales and you get up to 15,000 PV or $$;

    2) have a team generating 15,000 PV or $$ PLUS sell an extra 6,000 PV in additional “volume” / sales) COMMENTARY NOTE: folks, it’d be a LOT easier to get a real job!!

    COORDINATOR, (to qualify for this you have to have 2 teams of people generating 15,000PV and carry 4,000 PV or $$ in additional “volume” /sales )

    SENIOR COORDINATOR (to qualify for senior coordinator, you have to have 5 teams generating 15,000 PV or $$ and be selling an extra 2500 PV or $$),

    AND ALL LIFE COACH LEVELS (to be life coach, you have to have at least 6 teams of people generating 15,000 PV and be selling an extra 600 PV). (Example of internal tiers as well: Leader 1; Leader3; Leader6; Leader 12, and so forth)

    Along with those designations, of course, comes the actual volume in sales that you have to achieve through customer and member sales


    You can hit higher ranks like this:

    EXECUTIVE LIFE COACH: has 9 teams of people generating 15,000 PV
    DOUBLE LIFE COACH: has 12 teams of people generating 15,000 PV
    TRIPLE LIFE COACH: has 15 teams of people generating 15,000 PV
    CROWN LIFE COACH: has 18 teams of people generating 15,000 PV
    CROWN AMBASSADOR LIFE COACH: has 20 teams of people generating 15,000 PV
    (and remember, these upper poohbahs have 1,3,6,12 month achievement levels to reach, too) (Above these levels are the rarified Policy Council)

    Note: go to other threads and info on Amthrax and see the actual math: making money in this organization is very hard work, and most of the cash floats to the top, because there are convoluted ways inside the hierarchy they don’t thoroughly explain, even in their compensation plan handout. There are “Leader Depth Bonuses”, “One Time Only” bonsues, etc. Example: if you and your downliners earn “so much” in a month…your own personal bonus will float to the poohbah (if there is one) above you and you’ll get the one from the highest seller below you in your downline.

    And here’s the bottom line: by the time you’d manage a $5,000 to $9,000 “bonus” (remember, that’s the 40% tax bracket, too, if listed as a bonus), you’ll have so much time, money, materials and gas invested, that when you figure out your net profit, you’ll realize you shouldn’t have quit your real J.O.B. (condescendingly referred to since the Amway days and still today in LIFE as: Just Over Broke).

    Couldn’t find any information on how much the highest “Policy Council” Mighty Grand Poohbahs make, but it was said to me: Dan Hawkins makes $250,000 per month sitting in his mansion in Whitewater, WI! Who knows if it’s true or not.

    Can you imagine how much is floating into the pocket of Orrin Woodward just from this MLM scam?

    Yeah, Keep “Living In Excellence”, LIFE, while the bulk of your domesticated dominions blindly keep living the LIE while YOU try to tell them that if they fail, it’s all their own fault.

  42. Brent Hansen permalink
    August 29, 2012 5:10 am

    @51 click AmwayQuitters name on his post. Great blog by the way Quitter, good job!

  43. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    August 29, 2012 5:28 am

    Brent: ohhhhh, no wonder that person’s name had a different color! LOL!! Thanks.

  44. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    August 29, 2012 5:35 am

    @Amway Quitter and @Brent: thanks! got it! Gonna read Winston’s Smoke and Mirrors today….and check out the rest of the blog.

    Is it worse than Merchants of Deception? (I understood MoD easily after the first few pages—I think it was Eric Scheibeler’s way of writing, as if it was coming out of the depths of his gut or something; but in the beginning, I had to kind of surmise what it meant to be Ruby or Emerald–but when he got to the supposed money levels in it, it became very very clear–LOL!)

  45. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    August 29, 2012 6:29 am

    About application to the organization called team/LIFE in conjunction with the online booklet called: The Truth Behind the Smoke and Mirrors of Multi-Level Network Marketing:

    if you read this booklet (I couldn’t put it down and read it twice already), you’ll begin to see how:

    1) LIFE, which fits the bill of all the author says in this booklet, ALSO gets you with the grip and hype by putting an induction and maintenance focus on Christians and their religion. It’s the binding agent–they use it to keep you motivated (why, God WANTS you to ‘be all you can be’ and be filthy rich, if ONLY you’d listen to us kind of claptrap) (note: this, of course, was also done in Amway). It’s a business tactic I call: ‘Gone Biblical’. Why, they even have Sunday services, dont’cha know. (no offense to Christian believers–this is meant to show how LIFE bastardizes good peoples’ religion and belief systems)

    2) Unlike the overt or covert MLM’s (multi-level marketing schemes) or NMs (network marketing), Orrin Woodward’s L.I.F.E. (his 4th iteration of an MLM since his indoctrination into Dex Yager’s slimy hidden side of Amway in the 90’s), gets around you having to “buy in” as a licensed distributor by now calling people coming in: “independent contractors”–this way, technically there is no pyramid (but never mind that their compensation plan relies on just that concept of how pyramids pay out).

    3) In LIFE’s absolutely fantastical contract you sign (see it elsewhere on Amthrax), not only are you are NOT a vested licensed distributor of renewable household goods, etc., you still somehow can lose your supposedly non-existent DOWNLINE at the whim of LIFE. Well, what’s to lose if you are an independent contractor, you ask? Because it’s just like the Smoke and Mirrors booklet says: it does NOT matter what they say up front or try to obfuscate about in structure and function: it’s still an MLM, and one just inside of the law.

    4) When all else fails, the LIFE contract gets you to sign up front: you have no legal recourse and if you fail, it is your own fault, i.e., you just did not learn their “teachings” (propaganda) properly.

    5) LIFE makes sure to tell you that you can just buy their product for yourself, and not sell (and somehow on a Utube video, one leader, Marc Militello actually comes out and says you can climb up the upline doing this)—the outcome is: Woodward can use the “inactive” people as “end consumers of the product”—ergo, no pyramid scheme. He also gets buy with this because it’s an individual choice and opinion as to what they are selling, reselling and repackaging has any value to the individual.

    6) LIFE offers a 30-day, money back guarantee for your first $50 involvement….this, too, places them nicely inside of the law and helps them to look good.

    The majority of people in LIFE are MEMBERS paying for cheap repetitive paper and plastic goods, i.e., (brochures, lists, calendars, CDs, etc., along with expensive training and ‘happy sunshine up your butt’ meetings). Example: a CD may cost 11.95 to 14.95. (see the LIFE “tools” list elsewhere on Amthrax) It likely costs less than a buck-something to produce in bulk. Oh, and let us not forget: just to take the Mental Fitness Challenge Test costs almost $269 (you can get extra bonus money if you get people to buy THIS puppy!)

    The Truth Behind the Smoke and Mirrors of Multi-Level Marketing is well-worth the read—it supports what the actual truth is of this thing called team/LIFE, now referred to as LIFE (but don’t be fooled: LIFE/team is how it’s advertised). Without the “TEAM” portion, well, there’s no business to be had…..not a rubber ball….not a vacuum cleaner…nothing.

  46. August 29, 2012 6:33 am

    Hi all. Ageof wisdom, welcome. I just skimmed thought these comments for now, but I did want to tell you the invitation to Hawkin’s new manson was significent to me, no doubt he was doing the “dream-building”. When Claude Hamilton’s 2million dollar house was still in construction, Lana Hamilton (his wife) took a bunch of us ladies on a “dream-building” tour. Just the foundation, wooden structure and some stone were up then. But instead of talking about business strageties with us she talked about all these richy stuff she was going to get. (We all live in the Halifax, NS area, the Hamiltons live in Bedford).

    And there’s all this thought reform stuff, they called “change your thinking”. It was like walking into a room of business-dress-clad robots. They all dressed the same and talked the same and hugged each other and such.

    That Merchants of Deception book captivaed me, I stayed up all night reading it lol. It was like if you substuted Yager for Woodward, and Amway for Monavie and their tools business (forget the name of it then) to TEAM there ya go, exactly what I’ve observed even as a lowly autoshipper-girl-with-no-recruits.

    I’m anxious to hear about more legal action against Woodward and his motley crew.

  47. August 29, 2012 6:36 am

    Just to be clear they were hawking that miracle acai juice when I was in, I got out before LIFE came into play. But I was there when there was talk on focussing less on the product and more on the business opportunity.

  48. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    August 29, 2012 6:49 am

    @velizabethwhite: “webelieved” says they still let people who have the acai juice (Mon Avie business) sell it, but not really advertise it—perhaps Oprah Winfrey and Dr. Oz starting lawsuits, etc., helped to create the mad dash to get a new scheme going? LOL! But yeah, from what I’ve been reading, focusing on the “biz” or “team side” or “motivational side” has really been the underlying push since the behind-closed-doors days of Amway.

  49. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    August 29, 2012 6:50 am

    Accidentally came across Orrin Expounding upon how this country needs to get back to Judeo-Christian values:

  50. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    August 29, 2012 7:03 am

    (that’d be proselytizing—religion and the Christian God)

    “Charitable Focus: Orrin’s committed to spreading the good news of Jesus Christ, to assisting less fortunate youth, is involved in efforts to build churches and orphanages in India and to re-instill Biblical values in homes around the globe.”

    In my humble opinion, and PLEASE don’t get me wrong: building orphanages is good; building churches–that’s all okay for those of your Faith (or even if Catholics would like to build a temple for Hindus)…what is NOT okay is to force starving people to convert to your viewpoint just to get a meal–and yes, this has happened all throughout history and it happens today, not 25 miles from my home, e.g., as a Milwaukee County RN supervisor for a business dedicated to: homeless, addicted and ill populations, I had to send people to sites at night where they would not be fed and housed for the night unless they prayed or sat through services–and some of these people hadn’t eaten in days and were out in sub-zero weather. Something is direly wrong with such a concept. Our humanity should come first, i.e., fulfill man’s basic need BEFORE you force this.

    The most important aspect of this is: he is using Christianity, too, in a subversive manner in the LIFE business……ill-gotten gains……..then used to help his favorite “charities” which uses the ill-gotten gains to do futher conversions. How ethnocentric can the Westernized world get?

  51. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    August 29, 2012 7:20 am

    Back to the indoctrination aspect and trying to convince you that you don’t really need to know why/how you get paid: listen to what Hernandez says BEFORE he tries to explain the payment scheme for Mon Avie (the now, almost but not yet defunct $40/bottle juice business. Note: Mon Avie used “diamond” terms on the order of status that Amway used).

  52. August 29, 2012 7:44 am

    Any of Orrin’s charitable efforts will always be contradicted by his crooked business. His messages always conflict. On the one hand, one of his primary thrusts to newcomers is that you can be rich like him (putting it crudely), but on the other hand, he does things regarding his charitable focus, which I see as a good thing. (He would call this cognitive dissonance (if his eyes were opened) – which is essentially what lead to my leaving).

    I admire any effort to help the homeless. I see nothing wrong with the “meal and a message” approach. While I can’t speak for every organization that encompasses this approach who may have abused the situation (ie, “forcing” others to hear before eating…although I’m suspect of using the word “force” – a word that is often misused and misapplied to people or groups who believe that humans must be guided by universal principles, eg. Abortion kills babies. Therefore it should be illegal. Others would say we are “forcing” our beliefs on them regarding what they “can do with their own bodies” when in reality the issue is not about “forcing” others to do or not do anything, but the larger truth – that abortion is murder – transcends all other factors and the baby deserves the right to life.)

    I see nothing wrong with the overall goal of these types of missions, and even their methods. In fact, I see it as a positive thing. These organizations see man for what he really is, someone who certainly has basic human needs, but also as one who has deep spiritual needs. The mindset is often, “what good does it do to feed a man without attempting to deal with the deeper issues/habits that have brought him to our doors?” I’m not saying that everyone is at fault for falling on hard times, nor am I saying that they are necessarily lazy either. But, truthfully, how much better is it to nourish not only the physical needs of a person but also their mental, emotional and even spiritual needs? Many times these people are stuck in cyclical patterns that keep them from rising from the ashes, so to speak, and simply food won’t help them escape these patterns. In some ways, it just enables them to keep repeating them. “Why bother changing if I have a free meal awaiting me everyday?”
    But if even one soul can escape the clutches of a self-destructive lifestyle through the efforts of these organizations, and help release them from negative emotional or mental bondage that ensnares them, I’d say that’s a good thing, a goal so lofty that perhaps…we all should aspire to.

  53. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    August 29, 2012 7:49 am

    @Amway Quitter and @Brent: Ah ha!! Newbie gets a v8 nuggie!!

    If one applies Woodward’s very Christian-orientated (and induction-technique and sustaining methodoloies) forcefullness in the LIFE business, (along with his other proselytizing interests and goals) AGAINST the mathematical “bottom line” in Winston’s ‘Smoke and Mirrors’ booklet:

    one can see how Woodward is staving staving off the inevitable saturation of the hidden pyramid BY choosing people (Christians) who: number at least 1 billion people on the planet, and when they run out or quit or just can’t produce, then he’ll have a ‘nursery source’, i.e., more people proselytized into Christianity (and most likely his scheme is already instilled, since he’s focusing on building orphanages and churches. He’s no dummy…he knows all about exponential geometric growth. He has to invest money, too, to STOPGAP saturation problems.

    I don’t think I’m being too far-fetched here, either.

  54. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    August 29, 2012 7:58 am

    @mattjer22: you can be suspect of what I claim happened in my job as a Milwaukee County RN downtown (inner city) Detox supervisor to the homeless, addicted and infirm. (The fact is: it still goes on today–and when I make a donation to that organization, I put a disclaimer on it that I would hope the money I give would be for someone who cannot or will not pray to be fed/housed for that night). The people I speak of ended up back at RN Supervisors in the inner city like me who had to scramble to get them in to, at least, a hospital emergency room for awhile to keep warm, have sandwiches, etc. If you care to write to me through Amthrax, I will give you my name, license number, former employer, etc.

  55. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    August 29, 2012 8:02 am

    @mattjer: forgot something: the word “force” defined: when one is feeling ill, hungover/drugged, freezing on the streets and without sleep for days: to make them say a Hail Mary or the Lord’s Prayer or whatever, is just plain wrong. It is the worst kind of “undue influence” and non-charitable at best. For those men who ended up at that facility and who had been warned by me that no beds were left anywhere else…would you not call it “force” to have to pray just so you don’t freeze to death?

  56. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    August 29, 2012 8:25 am

    Clarification for mattjer: my job was ACUTE care intervention, i.e., to prevent death…not the long-term rehabilitation portion…which would be a more appropriate time to have someone find hope, to find their “higher power”. On 20 degree below zero nights, I found out what was happening to people when they came back to my door several times per night. It was NOT for me to judge or blame why there were on the streets and had become regulars out there (statistically, most who live like that have a degree to a lot of mental illness, too)—my job was to help them maintain what little dignity they had left and to keep their bodies alive until the next step could be achieved. Even the Milwaukee County hospital would get on my case, saying I was sending them people that they didn’t have room for anywhere. But at least, I didn’t get a sense from a county hospital that it had to do with religion. BTW, the name of the place I sent them to that they got turned away from, had sort of a misnomer name, and it looked on the surface to be a county facility, but I guess it wasn’t.

    The Jesus of the Bible fed the masses to show he cared, not “you’ve gotta listen to me before I fill your bellies.” And to get back on point: LIFE is bastardizing the good points of Christianity, too—they know where their common ground is with potential victims and they capitalize on it.

  57. August 29, 2012 8:27 am

    @Kris – Glad that our site could help you. After your meeting tomorrow, come back and let us know how it went and how your friend responds when you say no.

  58. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    August 29, 2012 8:51 am

    @Amthrax and @Kris: wow, if even one person would think twice not join LIFE because of stopping in to this Amthrax site, and this thread, too 🙂 then it’s been worth the labor, eh? Now, if someone out there could just get my son out of it before it’s too late for monumental heartbreak and financial loss.

  59. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    August 29, 2012 10:49 am

    @webelieved etal: I think I finally realized, just today, what’s really grating me about this LIFE/team (as Dan Hawkins writes it) organization (besides lying about the financial “dream”, of course). If the 8Fs (repeated here in case anyone can’t remember them all–these were taken directly from the ship’s wheel for the comp plan booklet–and i’m confused, but there’s really only 7 Fs shown on the wheel spokes):

    LIFE– (center of the wheel)
    FUN (the above 7 are the spokes of the ship wheel)
    FITNESS [editor’s note: the original comment failed to mention this]
    For me, if it were changed to the following with a few additions:


    Then, I’d “get it”- I don’t think I’d have as big of a “beef” here. THEN, people getting into it would have their eyes open from the getgo. And the issue of proselytizing or using Christianity in a distateful (at times) way is a moot point. You’d know up front if you wanted to get into it, you know? Some poeple might want to get in, just for the sense of community, as long as they know they are likely going to be in the 50 to 96%tiles of those not getting into it, expecting to make moolah. If it were this way, I think I’d still have my son in my life—nothing to do with religion or Christianity per se—but if he’d have chosen to join something up front, with ideologies and methodologies, etc., explained, don’t think the rift would have occured.

    [editor’s note: updated comment to reflect the correct 8F’s]

  60. August 29, 2012 11:44 am

    Can you take a photo of the comp. plan booklet? I doubt that they would remove fitness from the 8F’s.

  61. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    August 29, 2012 12:25 pm

    Oh, hells bells!! MY MISTAKE!! CAN AMTHRAX GO AND FIX MY PRIOR POST AND ADD IT? webelieved: did I forget fitness? Here it is again, and I am looking right at it.
    LIFE as the center of the ship wheel
    then, starting from the 6pm position and going clockwise:
    About your other posts: all I can say is: yup, to all of them, eh?

    About fitness: did ya see the article on the Beatles and the guru? I had to laugh when one of the Beatles wanted to leave the guru’s grip over a veggie diet–LOL!! So much for that aspect of ‘fitness’…..

  62. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    August 29, 2012 12:28 pm

    @amthrax: see last post to webelieved I just made re: word “FITNESS”. AND: can you go to my original long post listing the 8 Fs and fix it, i.e., add it to both the initial listing of them and then add it to the bottom one I’d like to see from that company? (and remove my statement where I say it’s confusing ’cause it looks like 7F’s?) I’d hate to throw any other newbies off-track! I looked at that dang ships wheel at least a dozen times when I was typing, and I STILL missed ‘Fitness’……so sorry; did not mean to lead anyone astray.

  63. August 29, 2012 12:43 pm

    I corrected the original comment. No need to moderate the subsequent comments. Moving along now…

  64. August 29, 2012 7:35 pm

    Interesting that Christ feeding others was brought up. In one of His 37 recorded miracles, He feeds 5000 people with 2 fish and 5 loaves of bread. His sole pupose was most certainly not just to meet their physical needs. In fact, His purpose was to show them, through miracles, that He was the Messiah and they were to believe in Him. But He never focused merely on the physical needs of man, for He even called Himself the “Bread of Life”. Their physical needs was always secondary to (or were used to point out) their spiritual needs

    Personally, I feel if an organization was “making somebody pray a prayer” in order to get a free meal, I’d say they are missing the boat, and most likely really aren’t ministering to a person’s spiritual needs. But I’d say that’s different from asking others to sit and hear a message for some food. If a person’s heart is so hard that they refuse a free meal because some pastor wanted to tell them about Jesus, I’d say that person needs a good lesson on “don’t bite the hand that feeds you”, or “beggars can’t be choosers”. It certainly isn’t indicative of “forcing” someone to believe something or even “undue influence” on them. (For an example of “forcing” someone to believe something, just visit any Muslim dominated country and denounce Islam and see how far that gets ya…I wonder if there will be any “undue influence” there…that should bring some perspective here)
    Now, perhaps that person who just can’t stomach some prosletyizing with their FREE meal should just mozy on down to the secular soup kitchen for some grub…oh wait…lemme guess…there wasn’t one…hmmm…

    So the reason I even bring all this up is not to be contentious. (That last paragraph really did have some tongue in the cheek there). But really, I do see parallels all throughout these discussions between Orrin who is almost being made out to be a Messiah-like figure and the real Christ whom Orrin claims of knowing but shows no signs of being anything like.
    And this is perhaps the most frustrating thing for me in all of this. Because Orrin and his crooked business is so intertwined with his charitable and cultural goals (of which I stand in agreement with him on – for the most part), when his scam is seen clearly, one almost has this feeling of wanting to throw it ALL away, even the good with the bad. But I think it would be wrong, and even dangerous, to do that. I, personally, think it’s fruitful to have discussions where we separate the good from the bad. I think it helps people.

    It helps the spiritually young christian who is just finding out that Orrin and co are actually very bad people, but this person maybe came to Christ in this organization (I’ve seen this story more than once). Now, how does this person keep from throwing the baby out with the bath water once they realize Team is corrupt? Well, to hear a fellow believer on here untangle the right from the wrong, the good from the bad could just maybe help that young christian keep from throwing out what has benefited him spiritually and eternally and then he can discard the rest. How important a goal that should be, esp for those who see the deeper elements of what is really going on here in this biz.
    It also helps the believer who’s faith hasn’t been shaken but isn’t quite able to really articulate or separate the poison from truth. They know Team is wrong but they juuuuuust can’t figure out how to dictate that to others. Well, here they can learn these differences and can share them with their loved ones and friends who may still be in or are considering Team.

    This is how I see what at least my approach to this whole debacle should be. If even one person escapes the clutches of this cult and yet still maintains a hold of Truth after all of it, why, that’s a reason to rejoice!!

  65. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    August 29, 2012 8:16 pm

    @mattjer22: each and every one of us is allowed to have our own belief system, that’s for sure.

    You brought up a good point, though, about someone who actually FINDS their faith in LIFE/team (as Hawkins writes the name)….and then only to crash later in the confusion of what they now believe to be pure goodness but facing almost the opposite in what’s going on around them in the money scheme, etc.—that’s the sadness of it all–what a horrible conundrum for the individual to have found their Faith and then, down the road, the coming to terms with the lies and deception that came part ‘n parcel with it from LIFE methodologies..

    Even Eric Sheibeler in Merchants of Deception kept meeting up with nagging dichotomies of what he knew his faith was and should be to him, and what it was turning into as he grew to Emerald Distributor status. Point: even steadfast Christians could be shaken, so what about the poor person celebrating the joy of a new Faith? (You know where I stand—but I am not heartless and, of course, I am an ex-Catholic, so I understand what it was like all of those decades ago)

    As for the rest of it—big, sincere smile—you and I could probably have our own debate blog somewhere else here on wordpress—so I’m not saying anything or else I’ll have Amthrax on my heinie like I did on another thread. today— 🙂 ))))))

  66. Former Round Table permalink
    August 30, 2012 8:33 am

    I was actually one of the people who came to Christ and Christianity because of the Team, and specifically because of Orrin and Laurie Woodward. Ironically it was our Christian beliefs that led us to finally leave the Team and the income. Once we realized that Orrin (and Laurie) were preaching one thing but doing something very different, we were done. For all their talk about integrity, God first, and doing the right thing, they sure do just the opposite.

    I am so sad for those people who only see what’s on stage and don’t have the ability to see the truth. If Orrin’s actions — all of them — were brought out in to the light of day, he would not have ANY followers. Not even Brady or Marks.

  67. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    August 30, 2012 10:40 am

    @Former Round Table: you know what struck me when I watched that old Mon Avie video I had reposted yesterday: right away, Woodward started praising the Christian God heavily and to the side of the stage, first, I see a fancy car and THEN he launched into how they’d been so blessed, so very very very very blessed ad nauseum (in the material world) that Laurie was NOW going to get the fancy horse ranch, etc., that she’d been wishing for Now, don’t get me wrong, I’m not against rich Christians or rich HIndus or rich Atheists, etc.—what I’m against is the undertone of “we tried hard enough; we believed hard enough—and look at the earthly rewards we reaped off of the downline.” It gags even a runaway-Catholic :), so I can’t imagine what you thought after you found your Faith through them, and then got to see the dark side of them. Can you be more specific, though, and give an example, or is it that just, in general, you saw what was happening to the downline vs the upline?

  68. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    August 30, 2012 11:47 am

    @webelieved: gee, your prior post actually makes me feel very sad. I’m truly sorry–truly!!– you have had a foundational shake in your “religious dogma” portion of your belief system over what happened by being in the grips of Woodward etal, but maybe, for solace, then talking to someone of a non-denominational Church would help like the Congregational Church?

    I can only say: if I were a believer like you, then I would fight the emotional/intellectual fight to not capitulate into the ultimate loss of what comforts me (you), thereby inadevertently allowing schmucks like Woodward to win—because if they do win, it only adds to the flames of their deceipt. THEY are the ones who should fear an ultimate wrath of their God (if they are true believers)…you shouldn’t be a victim of losing your faith over THEM.

    You know, even Agnostics and some Atheists and Humanists believe there is a higher power in the universe—-otherwise, scientists wouldn’t be looking for “the God particle”—will we ever be able to figure out what could cause something the size of a photon to create the explosion that caused the universe to form? Probably not. What we choose to believe personally, is what “FAITH” is all about. It can’t be proven or disproven. One can only choose to say for themselves: it either does or does not exist.

    I think most of the mud-slinging here on earth among Christians is about the “dogma”…….how soon we forget that once, Catholic Popes ruled the civilized world and had murderous armies to wipe out those who dared to disagree, etc., and how that turned around by the 20th century, for example, such as in this country where we had a hard time getting to the point of even electing a very young Catholic president (JFK) for the first time. How soon we forget that even in the 20th century, we loved to “word persecute” between each other in our Christian religions (we did worse than that to black Americans, though, too)–like how foolish Catholics were made to feel over concepts of Limbo and Saints, etc., (articles exist about this phenomenon finally abating and a new focus starting since we’ve had more problems with the Middle East), or conversely, how people in, for example, my own family should not marry Lutherans.

    Orrin Woodward and company took the general Christian Faith tenets and painted a facade of devout, Christian Holiness over themselves as they surreptitiously robbed the downline masses—and of course, on the surface the Christian basic dogmas of any sect would seem to support their successes, because supposedly they used their “Godliness” to do it! A total bastardization of the best parts of Christianity.

    I hope you DON’T end up disillusioned and lose what gave you comfort because of MLM fallacies and corruption. If your Jesus was here now: he’d be turning over a few tables of coin in the mansions of the MLM Pharisees, now, wouldn’t he?

  69. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    August 30, 2012 4:02 pm

    webelieved: well, I think by now you guys have answered your own questions, eh? That the facade of Christianity in this MLM is just that: a superficial facade. And no, it doesn’t mean that I, personally think ‘good people’ don’t get sucked into it; in fact, I think it’s people like you guys–(or anyone with a conscience, be it atheistic, agnostic, christian, hindu, buddhist or whatever, but) in this case, we’re talking Christians….end up on blog sites like this.when their conscience of faith makes them uneasy.

  70. Cali permalink
    August 30, 2012 5:37 pm

    How could Brady and Marks not know everything? They are so close, does OW keep things from them as well?

  71. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    August 30, 2012 8:44 pm

    Examination of more sociopolitical history of the LIFE Poohbahs: publications: (Guzaardo has a 3 part history piece; and I found a leadership admiration piece by Chris Brady) And remember: you do NOT have to read this; and also remember: it is LIFE that prompted this post after a long evening of reading, sometimes in disbelief–reading more treatises on their interest in sociopolitical/economic/religious/philosophical history from the Romans through today.

    G’s background info: continuation in his part 2 of his 3 part series of Leadership Blogs has the basic belief/assumption which is:
    the Roman Empire fell solely because of moral decay (never mind that their military/supply reach went too far to be sustainable and unaccounted for resistance of peasantry of foreign lands, among other reasons, too) and G carries through a common theme centered around concepts of cause and effect, such as moral decay = fall of civilization. (I don’t necessarily disagree with what happens in total moral decay, but one needs to look at the whole picture–and one needs to define “moral”)

    In part 3, he will state all principles are TRUTH–(got a few beefs with that generalized statement, but, oh, well…)

    In part 2, I had to chuckle when he was talking about Alexis de Tocqueville (a French politician who came and toured America and her penal systems in the 1830’s)……and this Frenchman was quoted as to what his view was on Christianity and liberty being very intertwined in America to the point where the two seemed indistinguishable vs how it was in France.

    Um….I noticed that the Frenchman was likely NOT shown, nor considered it if he WAS shown, that we were still pushing the Native American Indians westward and/or onto limited lands we stole from them, etc.

    And remember: a common thread through Woodward’s and Guzzardo’s etal writings seems to be, at least as an undercurrent: we are NOT teaching history properly or with the ultimate ‘truth’ anymore–and it’s leading to our downfall.

    (Well, maybe they have a point—just look at how hard it was to realize the truth about the annihilating effects we committed on native peoples because we “Westernized/Religicized” white folks thought was our divine right to do in all of the Americas and in the formation of the British Empire, etc)

    Also got the impression that by quoting the Frenchie (among other things that are mentioned throughout this series, it was to then be extrapolated that this truly WAS the major “founding principle”, i.e., as a God TRUTH that the expansionist invasion into a foreign land was divinely ordained with a subsequent also-divinely inspired government) (we know full well from back in the day, that in reality ‘some men were created more equal than others’ and in their Faiths back then, they held that to be true)
    Here’s what G forgot to tell you: Tocqueville (who since February 1848 had supported laws restricting political freedoms) approved the two laws voted immediately after the June 1849 days, which restricted the liberty of clubs and freedom of the press (sad smile)

    CHRIS BRADY: He’s got a leadership blog amazingly eulogizing Samual Clemens…….(OMG! as they say.)…..ol’ Mark Twain was about as Atheistic in attitude as he could get for his era (he was downright shockingly RUDE about it, actually) (but was forced to be a superficial Presbyterian or probably endure a public execution-of-sorts). (Tongue-in-cheek: next I’m going to see eulogizing on, you got it: Dr. Suess who was also an avowed Atheist……okay, okay, Amthrax…don’t smack me…back on point….)


    WHAT’S MY POINT? Well, I don’t think that all of the doctors, lawyers, candlestick makers, engineers, auto mechanics, physical therapists, etc……….take enough into consideration before they turn their underlying doctrines loose on the inductees in LIFE and the entire WWW—and the sick, sad, sorry hoot of it all is: it’s just another ploy to get you to buy their claptrap over and over and over…so THEY can build more mansions and buy more jet ski setups, boats, build horse farms and take swanky vacations!!.

    Or else they know it’s all BS and they’re just trying to use academia as THE LATEST VERSION OF SMOKE AND MIRRORS? Why the hell do they do these things? Is it to keep the “leadership” bullshit flowing on a monthly basis? They feel they have to produce more and more philosphical meanderings to improve member lives? Someone tell me! I find the whole thing so bizarre (not saying I disagree with everything they write—am just so surprised to see this in a hidden pyramid as they rape their downlines!
    Sorry this is long….in my humble opinion: people considering going in to LIFE really do to know where LIFE’s foundational, philosophical doctrines/behind-the-scene indoctrination spews from….well, at least if they haven’t read the dismal percentage stats on making money that is 🙂

  72. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    August 31, 2012 6:41 am


    This is what some in the Dan Hawkins LIFE/Team-STEALTH hierarchy via Matt Mielke’s leadership are reading (scroll down on the web page to testimonials when you get there; you’ll see stuff on their Turbo 25rs (The Bruner couple), etc., and a big blurb on Independence Day which is where the data is. (note: “Turbo 25rs” defined: those who have a following of at least 50 people in LIFE)

    Book inspiring some of Hawkins’ leadership : The Five Thousand Year Leap: Twenty-Eight Great Ideas That Are Changing the World is a book that was published in 1981 by the anti-communist and conservative Mormon author Cleon Skousen. In essence: this man believed the US Government is the Christian God’s Government.
    Please use the hyperlink below to get the criticisms of using such a philosophy when the foundational assumptions maybe be rather skewed in the first place: Simply put: go to something as simple as Wikipedia and see the other side of the philosphical story and more cases of misinterpreting historical fact:

  73. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    August 31, 2012 8:54 am

    webelieved: I’ll tell you something, though…it’s not easy to do this (reading and cross-checking, etc.)…because these writers never really tell you ‘up front’ what their own premises are, i.e., what they hold to be true. So, as I read, and they jump from one so-called empirical truth to the next…I actually have to stop and go get a book or snoop online to make SURE that the history I thought I had been taught, and events I witnessed in the 20th century, really happened–which leads me to a kind sad: lol.

    Why is this happening? I think, because they are pulling people in from all sectors, and they have ‘leadership requirements’, it’s like people just latch onto something and develop it because it’s the ‘Blog of the Month Blurb Club’……know what I mean?

    It COULD end up to be a frightening new philosophy of everything from economics to conspiracy theories if it ran unchecked….thank goodness for the mathematics and ‘laws’ of saturation!

  74. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    August 31, 2012 3:44 pm


    Which sentence of Matt Mielke’s below (in Hawkins’s line) would really CLASSICALLY PISS OFF a 62 yr old woman whose female ancestors fought for the right for women to vote in this country, and who, herself had been the victim of unequal pay for equal work, and who was told that she could NOT even take auto mechanics in high school, BECAUSE she was female:

    “To say I was confused at that period of my life would be an understatement. Years of propaganda from my college days shouted, “Men move over, it’s time to let others lead!” So I did. I let my wife bring home the majority of the money. I changed a diaper as well as anyone. I kept the house clean. **Meanwhile, my wife heard a message to take on the responsibility of what men neglected over the decades and generations”** (by Matt Mielke, 8/24/11 The New Beginning-Leadership to the Masses blog)

    WHAT A SICK TWISTED DISTORTION OF THE TRUTH. HIS WIFE DREAMED OF AND BECAME A DOCTOR! There was a time women could barely get IN TO schools for that! Well, he’s got her suckered in real good, too. And he had a good job, too! (Nothing wrong with staying home to take care of your kids—if that’s what fulfills you completely as an adult female–but I am sick and tired of them making it sound twisted, as if it is unnatural!!

    “Propaganda from his college days”?!! Paleeeese!!

    What the hell!! These people are hell-bent on rewriting late 19th-20th Century American History! Next, they will explain away the economics of slavery, too. Bunch of freak zealots that will try to convince you up is down and down is up. What the hey! We’re down Alice’s rabbit hole.

    Just wait: wait and see what happens to the gullible (not stupid, but ignorant) young women getting in to this…WHAT will they have left after saturation is reached?

    [Editor’s note: added blockquote for readability]

  75. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    September 1, 2012 4:04 am

    webelieved: 20th Century: WWll: “Rosie the Riveter”……….we didn’t have enough men. Women found out they COULD do what men do, too. Of course, I come from a family where women since 1915 always worked, outside the home. I hate to say this (probably have people jumping all over my heinie here)….but this whole LIFE organization is like. a bunch of rabid truly “far out” political right wingers in this country—am talking extremist level. that almost appears evangelical in the extremism.

    Women: you do NOT want to go back to where it’s expected you do nothing but stay ‘barefoot, pregnant and in the kitchen’–and eventually, this WILL happen if LIFE continues for too long.

    I can’t believe LIFE is trying to destroy our decades of hard work! (If one’s goal in life is to have babies and stay home, that’s fine—but having the RIGHTS and CULTURAL SOCIAL ACCEPTABILITY to get out should not go away and let me tall ya: this is part of what LIFE wants as they make their Machieavellian plans to take us back to the American Revolution and start over.

    These morons better start reading genealogical history just in their own families! Women were property! They could be beaten like horses! Livin’ in the early days was NOT romantic except, again, perhaps for the ultra wealthy. (My mother founded a local genealogical society for a discrete group of European immigrants here in the 1970s–and I did a review of records and one sees a lot of violence against women which was just “standard fare” back in the 1840’s-1850’s [the main time period studied])

    Do young women getting into LIFE want to do create a situation where eventually women have regressed to this and have this happen to you, like it did to me the summer I graduated high school: (my father, who was born in 1910 is speaking–and he truly believed this and my Mom almost clocked him):

    “Girls your age do not need to own cars.”

    Do the LIFEr chicks really wanna go back to those more pervasive, repressive attitudes?!

    To me as a woman, this would be a fate worse than death. I can’t believe women actually find LIFE membership attractive, just because of this!!! (egad, webelieved: this one concept these freaks are bastardizing makes me just irate!)

    Tell me more about your experiences with this sexism…

  76. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    September 1, 2012 4:30 am

    @webelieved: PS: [I know you know this stuff already–am just blowing off the stench of LIFE steam] I can see why a struggling young couple (this would NOT include the Matt Mielke family which would be “X’r Yuppies” in socioeconomic status) would love to see an auto mechanic and a day care operation wife (such as Policy Council Dan Hawkins and wife) become filthy rich and lead the good life [never mind the morality in taking money from downliners who may be struggling!], and unfortunately, be a “draw” for other struggling folks coming in, BUT there are premises and assumptions being instilled in a subversive manner when one reads their blog commentaries across couples and time in the history of these MLMr bigwigs.

    You know what, though: if a couple like the Mielke family DID fail to make enough money in LIFE…THEY have the college educations and degrees and certifications to go right back to work—she’s a doctor and he’s a pharmacist or something, right?

    This would be a LOT different than what is going to happen, for example, in my son’s family—she was a higher earner. This means, he needs to draw her in and they need to REALLY go nuts trying to earn money from LIFE so that they can start to climb up to the Hawkins couple. We know they haven’t got a hope in hell of achieving it—-and THEN all hell is unleashed in our family. And my grandchildren are NOT going to be the better for it, i.e., of their parents being involved in LIFE!

    This scares me….I can’t sleep anymore….I’ve been in and out of mild congestive heart failure….and we’ve been abandoned…….it’s like they died or something….we feel like family died and there was no funeral. Make sense?

  77. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    September 1, 2012 8:31 am

    @webelieved: well, then, I’d LOVE to hear Oettinger’s CDs…..anyone out here have one?

    About the “leader” concept conglomeration of pooh-pooh they use to get you in…yeah, that may work when these guys are going into companies and trying to blow a little sunshine up the butts of the actual workers of corporate America for a 1-time session or so, BUT…

    they’ve carried it over into this hidden pyramid scheme, whereby they “counsel” every aspect of your life to ensure their own brand of conformity in the indoctrination process—and the “rich get richer while the poorer get poorer”—which ironically, is exactly what Karl Marx called the “law of increasing poverty” in a capitalistic free market society (again, this points out the hypocrisy of Woodward etal claiming these very things about where we are now—and the hidden truth is: they are among the WORST offenders!! What a freakin’ hoot!).

    Okay: now I get it! My son was not only concerned about finances….he hollered that his CDs were “saving his marriage” —actually screamed that at me when I asked him to think twice about getting involved financially with LIFE. Gee, guess what CDs he had been given, eh?

  78. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    September 1, 2012 12:33 pm

    webelieved: not sure if she is or not–talked to her today…don’t think so…am keeping under the radar here….

  79. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    September 1, 2012 1:57 pm

    Are ya kiddin’ me? Remember when I had posted a long one yesterday about some philosophy from Clousen who (was used as an example in a LIFE blog) ended up to be a Mormon (nothing wrong with Mormons–just to refresh minds)…….okay, well on Dan Hawkins’s blog page, he’s touting stuff written by Orrin Woodward, AGAIN, but this time about Oliver Demille….who just happened to supposedly study under Clousen (a Mormon with certain world views, too). Demille has definitive political views in a book called 1913 and on education.

    Now, this is important, because LIFErs would like to see his educational philosophy and style…instead of me going on and on….here’s a link to a website abou the OTHER side of DeMille (part of the fascination with Demille was weaseling a way into home schooling and it is called the Thomas Jefferson Education Method). Here’s the joke of it all: TJ himself had your average education.

    Oliver Demille: “George Wythe University” and
    “Thomas Jefferson Education”
    And there’s criticism from a family who actually DID home schooling, too, right on wordpress.

    Or if that isn’t enough for ya: how about this from this next website:

    A Quote from DeMille; “The New World Order, which George Bush has made part of everyday vocabulary, is world government. It is sponsored by Satan and his followers, whose power is based on secret combinations, secret oath-bound societies, world financial institutions, New Age religious organizations, and a number of global movements including humanism, communism, socialism, fascism, nazism, democratic socialism, feminism, Marxism, environmentalism, and monopolistic capitalism.

    Or it would, but after publishing a book titled “Christ versus Satan: The New World Order,” he later decided that he had been mistaken and recanted.”

    Egad: ol’ Orrin Woodward sure wants us to turn back the clock so he really CAN fix all of Westernized Culture, Education, Economics, etc. WOW!!

  80. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    September 1, 2012 2:00 pm

    correction to last quote of mine in prior post on Demille: Obviously, the last quoted statement is from the writer on that web page, not DeMille. DeMille’s quote ends after the word ‘capitalism’.

  81. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    September 1, 2012 2:07 pm

    LOL!! OMG!! NOW YA KNOW WHY WOODWARD LIKES DEMILLE’S SCHOOLING… check out the words inbetween the asterisk stars which I added.

    “Due to financial troubles, the college had to lay off its faculty in 2002. After a brainstorming session, a solution to the school’s financial situation was determined to be found in, according to the official history of the college, “three major concepts . . .

    : *****speaking, seminars, and products.”*********

    In other words, the college would continue to exist by making money off of selling its pedagogical vision, mostly to homeschoolers. Since developing this financing plan, GWC has achieved a modicum of growth and its financial distress has significantly decreased. ” (Author: Julie M. Smith)


    Bwahahahahahahhahahaha!!! I bet Orrin was trying to get on faculty or some such megalomaniacal thing! Maybe sell HIS products, too!!

    DAN HAWKINS: ARE YOU REALLY THIS STUPID-O??? (to tout-spout this claptrap from your cult guru?)

  82. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    September 1, 2012 2:18 pm

    CORRECTION TO ABOVE POSTS: the ultra-conservative Mormon’s name is SKOUSEN (i.e., the 5000 Year Leap book, etc) , not Clousen….and DeMille was a protege of his….

    Here’s more for ya: and this time, even TV Personality, Glenn Beck got involved–skip the tea-party politics on Glenn Beck…just keep reading and Skousen and Demille are discussed

    More and more each day, we can see what the underlying indoctrinating philosophy of Woodward and LIFE/team, really is……….

  83. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    September 1, 2012 3:56 pm

    webelieved: I simply cannot believe what I am finding out here….the threads are starting to come together…Ain’t it interesting that NOW they are smoochin’ up to Mormon authors and educators at this point in time, i.e., election year?

  84. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    September 1, 2012 3:59 pm

    webelieved: um, yeah…tomorrow is Sunday…it’s the holiday….she wanted to do something simple for herself for a few hours tomorrow……but I am taking both kids while she is gone (first time seeing the grandkids since the LIFE debacle!). I’d like to know where the heck Pappa is….hmmmmm….this is all so absurd….I don’t think she’d get involved, though. She’s kind of touchy–I can’t come out and pry…I have to wait until she get really fed up and comes to me.

  85. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    September 1, 2012 4:19 pm

    here’s what she said a few weeks ago: “if it helps him to cope better, that would be good”—-obviously, you can tell she doesn’t have a clue as to the financial entailment….so I sent her something on how hard it is to make any money–from the actual comp plan book—but she hasn’t said anything. Believe me…….if the finances take a dive, I think THATs when she’ll say something, OR if she nixes it to him herself, that might do it, too—’cause then the fighting may start?

  86. Speak Your Truth permalink
    September 1, 2012 6:26 pm

    This sounds almost identical to what LIEf is. No surprise orrin and his yesmen are promoting Oliver Demille. But what is the most interesting find is Oliver DeMille’s new book 1913 was published by “Signature Management Team, LLC” and what do ya know that is the Team who is the publisher! You can find it here:

    Would this be double dippin… Make money by publishing it and then Orrin is has/going to make a ton of cash off that book, that is/has been forced down on book of the month and then every copy sold after that. But they aren’t about the “money”…riight.

  87. Speak Your Truth permalink
    September 1, 2012 6:39 pm

    Here is some more quotes from the link you put in your post that I will add here for reference>

    Seems from these quotes it seems Oliver Demille’s seminar approach may also use of the bait & switch technique, which is most disturbing and sounds eerily familiar from my experience. It also according to this quote is being described as having the “feel of a MLM scheme” there was a commentor on that link that had said something very similar after attending a “homeschooling” conference that had Mr. Demille as a speaker. No surprise …like attracts like.

    “What do these speakers, seminars, and products look like? You can’t go very long on a homechooling email list without seeing an announcement for the “Face to Face with Greatness” seminar, which costs $350. I have not attended one, but they have been described to me as having the feel of a MLM scheme: you attend a free seminar in someone’s home where no “nuts and bolts” are given but you are promised great insight if you attend the expensive conference locally, where you are promised greater insight if you attend another seminar at GWC . . .”

    “As far as materials, if you take a peek around the GWC bookstore, you will see that it bears little resemblance to a college bookstore but has the feel of a homeschool supply outlet. (I will say more about some of their materials later.)

    “While it appears that something like 90% of the TJE leaders and homeschoolers are LDS, specific LDS affiliation and references are not made and this has led at least one evangelical homeschooler to conclude that this is a marketing ploy since it is common knowledge that conservative Christians would not support a pedagogy developed by LDS and based on LDS thought. (I would note that I don’t think it quite fair to call TJE “based on LDS thought” but rather “based on a particular strain of LDS thought associated with people such as Cleon Skousen.”) Despite the fact that TJE claims no denominational affiliation, those interested in it eventually find out that is is an almost completely LDS enterprise.”

  88. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    September 1, 2012 6:47 pm

    Speak Your Truth….good work!!! Man o’ life….I sure wish some of us could communicate off of here and under the radar…(suddenly, I see myself all over BING searches on LIFE names I print in some of my posts)….I wonder…JUST WONDER…what’s really going on here…WOODY etal IS THE PUBLISHER?!!!!!!!! ARE YOU KIDDING ME???

    They are going to espouse right-political/religious wing DeMille and his mentor……why?…… sell books? I think I just said the “F” word again (in disbelief).

    Let me reiterate: they are going to embed/teach this skewed pablum doctrine to unsuspecting young 20’s to 30-something singles/couples (mostly, that’s what I see on facebook albeit I’ve seen some older folks in the audiences) ……… sell more paper product? Are ya freakin’ kiddin’ me???

    You know, I THOUGHT some of this stuff looked strange…and some of it started before it was really public as to which candidate would run for Pres. on the Repub side………well, looky here…NOW we have our answer.

    I wonder how many more we can find…do they have any other publishing LLCs? And HOW do we get a complete list of LLCs by the top 5 or 6 guys? I know there were partial lists on here, but…wondering about current.

    Well, I’ll be chiggered!!!! What you came up with finally made some sense for me! I could NOT keep up with how/why they were coming up with this stuff at times….

  89. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    September 1, 2012 7:09 pm


    This Business is not BBB accredited
    Signature Management Team, LLC
    View Additional Phone Numbers

    4072 Market Place, Flint, MI 48507
    wendybranson “at”


    “My good friend and scholar Oliver DeMille, author of the bestseller Thomas Jefferson Education, is finishing up a fascinating book on the force shifts of 1913. Few people understand and explain the movements toward and away from freedom like DeMille. Simply put, he is humble enough to continue learning and intelligent enough to be a veritable genius. This is a potent combination for simplifying the concepts of freedom. Here is a portion of the introduction I wrote for DeMille’s instant classic.

    Oliver DeMille’s soon to be released book gives the background story of the founders intentions and the fatal force shifts that hinder our freedoms. In truth, the four force shifts described in DeMille’s new book are painful enough on their own, but disastrous when combined:

    1. The general welfare clause
    2. The Federal Reserve bill
    3. The income tax amendment
    4. The democratic election of senators

    America must turn back from the precipice and return to the path of freedom. DeMille’s book is a torch to carry on freedom’s path. Western Civilization needs more leaders like DeMille who are willing to learn, live, and share their stories of freedom. This book is essential reading, a primer of freedom or anyone desiring to live free. Let me close with one final thought from President Woodrow in his 1913 book The New Freedom……”


    But dont’cha know: it’s all okay because the poor rubes in this MLM scheme actually think they are getting good, Christian value here.

  90. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    September 1, 2012 7:21 pm

    Speak Your Truth: is Legacy, LLC , a publisher out of Florida his, too?

  91. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    September 1, 2012 7:48 pm

    Yes, Obstacles Press is in Flint Michigan AND Business Plus in NYC……they are both theirs…I checked out every single publication—LOL!!

  92. Speak Your Truth permalink
    September 1, 2012 8:31 pm


    If you like you could contact me through Amthrax; to chat off the radar. I thought Chris Brady was the sole owner of; “Obstacles Press, Inc.” but maybe not, or perhaps that changed, it appears from this link> …to be a Partnership of Team. You can view their other books there too.

    You can see from these books they are all through this same publishing company, except for “Launching The Leadership Revolution” …I can’t remember but thought the First Edition was, but didn’t take the time to find that answer. I also didn’t take the time to find what “edition” that one is up to, but know it is a ridiculous amount.

    The Amazon link shows the others they are published from Obstacles Press, Inc.. I could but won’t, go into a whole thing on the “Obstacles” bobble head figurine haha..Seriously- a fictitious character that Chris Brady tried selling, ripping off the masses with something that had zero value for “business building.” *(Epic Failure..I don’t think anyone bought them, at least I never not even 1 sold) and for good reason! It was a worthless trinket that he was charging an outrageous price for! I don’t remember exactly but think it was around 40 Bucks! You could probably find this trinket and it’s outrageously over= priced on the web if you are interested in seeing it. Sorry, I would search for it now, but gotta go.

  93. Speak Your Truth permalink
    September 1, 2012 8:32 pm


    That Is the Team Office Address, I believe.

  94. Speak Your Truth permalink
    September 1, 2012 8:35 pm

    I would bet “Legacy, LLC.” is from Randy Haugen…another Amway (original) Diamond that orrin I believe solicited and then Randy Left with most of his group when he found out the “real” orrin…go figure!

  95. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    September 1, 2012 10:17 pm

    I’ll be back on later tomorrow.

    Hey, did you guys see the diacritical mark in the name: Obstacles? I guess it’s supposed to sound like Socrates? Or Sophocles?

    Obstacles the bobble head? C’mon here…old ladies have weak bladders! LOL!!

    “My favorite story from the weekend is about Obstacles himself. Here is the transcript from two text messages I received from a couple making their way home:

    “Obstacles already trying to hold us back! The bobblehead stopped us dead at airport security . . . But we overcame! Great weekend. Just what we needed!”

    “After he was removed and body cavity searched, he was returned to us in his cardboard casket!”

    Brady: “I guess even Obstacles has a little trouble getting through airport security!”


    Ohhhhhhhh, my bladder……….Obstacles [Ob’-sta-clees] LOL!! Well, we know of two LIFErs who bought one—egad!

  96. AlmostIn permalink
    September 2, 2012 6:49 am

    FOR THE NEWBIES–In simple terms what team/LIFE is and will bring into your life is a dependency on the functioning of YOU as compared to those in team/LIFE. You want money to be the answer to all your problems (if you just had this amount it would do this, this and this, etc…..) The problem with team/LIEF is that they want you to believe that all your answers lie within this group/organization. (this is where the cult aspect of this comes in) They have everything you’ve been looking for all in one neat package and with a little work you can have it to. (Look at them, they did it) You will have all of life’s answers to your struggles and worries. The problem with this is: No one person has all the answers! Answers can be found in all different places not just one group/organization/business.

    I was able to differientate what team/LIFE would bring into my life because I was involved in a relationship that was much like what I would experience in team/LIFE. The word narcissist came into my thoughts (I have no idea why this word entered in my mind) but as an inquisative person I did some research on it. What I would come to find out is that I experienced a relationship that was one sided–THEIR SIDE, THEIR VIEWS, AND ONLY THEIR AGENDA–YOURS DOES NOT ENTER THE PICTURE and if it does it is only by tactics of manipulation (if I give you the impression that I am giving you what you want then I can really get what it is that I am seeking). By reading this site; reading information about cults, narcissism, abuse and Merchants of Deception, Orrin Woodward and crew need the stroking that comes with being the top dog(s). They need YOU and every body involved in team/LIFE to lift them up. They can’t fathom being just an ordinary person because that would be the dealth of THEM. They need this to be alive and feeling good. THEY NEED you to do this for them because they can’t do it themselves. They need you to see what they have so-called achieved because they themselves can’t feel alive without your acknowledgment and agreement that they are alive. I see these types of people so clearly now. My radar for them has increased. Do not give all your power or your livlihood to only one group/person/business/organization. They do not have your best interests in heart. Seek many other opportunities and information to reach your goals.

    I was able to see that team/LIFE was going to be detrimental to me. I have reached out on this site because of the impact that my relationship and team/LIFE brought to my life–both good and bad. It is said that you can” lead a horse to water, but you can’t force it to drink”.

    Knowl.edge is power. There are evil people that disguise themselves as good out in the world and thinking that you aren’t going to come into contact with evil is just what Orrin Woodward and crew are hoping for.

    The people on this site are what psychologists call empaths (or empathetics). People who have experienced what you are experiencing in your life (just in different/same struggles/circumstances) This site is trying get you to see the mistakes that they have made that have been very detrimental to them and to give this (pay it forward) to any/all newbies that come to these sites because there is a knawing inside of them after being exposed to someone in team/LIFE. You can’t quite put a finger on it or have a definite understanding of just what you’re thinking or feeling. This site is worth the exploration of some critical thinking about what you may be getting involved with.

  97. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    September 2, 2012 7:01 am

    AlmostIn: here’s a good example of what you just said above—this is a new YouTube video made by Dan Hawkins…..and in essence, that’s the message: “you can have what I have if only you’re a productive part of the team”:

    Video is called “Chase Your Dreams in LIFE”

  98. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    September 2, 2012 7:20 am

    webelieved: in your longer last posting…you hit the nail on the head, too. Even IF my son isn’t into this by doing a lot of selling……over three weeks ago already he was 10 cd and 7 books in from one source or another just for himself to read—even by that time, when he’d get upset over something, he’s say he had to run out to his car to listen to a CD to calm down! Egad!

    I can see my son and Dan Hawkins making a perfect fit—I mean perfect….well, except for the money thing/mansion/toys, of course.

    I will see if I can’t find something out today……the spouse is due here soon with the kids…..

  99. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    September 2, 2012 11:32 am

    webelieved: no luck; I can tell the wife is NOT in; sounds (by omission of what was not said) like he is.

  100. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    September 2, 2012 12:01 pm

    LIFE/Team and How Orrin Woodward (in his obsession-al admiration of Thomas Jefferson) at times removed the idealistic philosophical thoughts (thousands of them!) from some (not all) of the actions of the man and how this causes UNDUE INFLUENCE for Woodward’s followers.



    “Jefferson took it further than most. Jefferson held that not only are all men created equal, but they remain equal throughout their lives, equally capable of love as an attractive force. Their level of dependence makes them UNEQUAL IN PRACTICE. Removing or preventing CORRUPTING DEPENDENCE would enable men to be equal in practice. Jefferson idealized a future in which men would be FREE OF DEPENDENCIES, particularly those caused by banking or royal influences.

    In his May 28, 1818, letter to Mordecai Manuel Noah, Jefferson expressed his faith in humanity and his views on the nature of democracy. In political terms, Americans thought that VIRTUE was the “glue” that held together a republic, whereas patronage, dependency and coercion held together a monarchy.”

    (So, in reality, yes, he wanted government limited but he thought virtue would help create a setting where the common virtuous white man would be free and equal, eventually not needing favors or central banking to get ahead in an idealized society… And remember, his enemy was England—his policies aimed against England actually economically HURT the new USA…..but now read on)
    Compare this idea of VIRTUOUS people needing less government with (and remember, too: he didn’t really much like slavery per se, but he though it was an economic necessity for awhile):

    “As governor of Virginia (1780–1781) during the Revolutionary War, Jefferson recommended FORCIBLY MOVING Cherokee and Shawnee tribes that fought on the British side to lands west of the Mississippi River. Later, as president, Jefferson proposed in private letters beginning in 1803 a policy that under Andrew Jackson would be called INDIAN REMOVAL, under an act passed in 1830.As president, he made a deal with elected officials of the state of Georgia: if Georgia would release its legal claims to “discovery” in lands to its west, the U.S. military would help expel the Cherokee people from Georgia.”

    “Jefferson believed that NATIVE SHOULD GIVE UP their own cultures, religions, and lifestyles to assimilate to western European culture, Christian religion, and a European-style agriculture, which he believed to be superior”
    Also compare with, and note the name Wyeth! (remember, DeMille (the author whose book Woodward published) would call upon this name, too) ( the following is in the context of trying to disestablish the Anglicans):

    “In 1778, Jefferson’s “Bill for the More General Diffusion of Knowledge” and subsequent EFFORTS TO REDUCE CONTROL BY CLERGY led to some small changes at William and Mary College, but free public education was not established until the late nineteenth century.[41] In 1779, at Jefferson’s behest, William and Mary appointed his mentor George Wythe as the first professor of law in an American university.”
    Also compare this with what he did as a Governor :

    “After Independence, Jefferson returned to Virginia and was elected to the Virginia House of Delegates for Albemarle County.[37][38] Before his return, he commented on the drafting of the state’s constitution; he continued to support freehold suffrage, by which ONLY PROPERTY HOLDERS COULD VOTE.”

    And finally, here is why I suspect Orrin Woodward and LIFE truly admire Jefferson:

    “Though he and his supporters attempted to dismantle several of the accomplishments of his two predecessors, notably the NATIONAL BANK, MILITARY, and FEDERAL TAXATION SYSTEM, they were only partially successful”

    Woodward etal want this and teach this, BUT: they have taken the portions of philosophy they choose to focus on out of the man who lived in a specific blink of time, who had his own prejudices and unique point of view.

    LIFE/Team is pushing a hidden agenda…and who knows if they actually believe their own claptrap—it sells printed/verbal goods and makes them multi-millionaires.
    To make things easier: if you want to check out footnote sources, got to the simple Wikipedia under Thomas Jefferson—there are well over 225 footnotes, an extensive bibliography and differing points of view presented, too.

  101. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    September 3, 2012 4:26 am

    webelieved: I just can’t believe what the Peters couple went through! Just how /why did the Peters fall out of “favor”, so to speak? And was this Jammie a spy:?

    And just what was the beeg about showing the plan? You mean that then Woodward tried to change experienced fact that it had been customary to talk about (while pitching folks about getting into the biz), the perk of getting residual income?

    You know, some of this is just too Orwellian, really!

  102. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    September 3, 2012 4:26 am

    typo: “beeg” was supposed to read: being

  103. September 3, 2012 8:18 am

    @Speak – the publisher information was a good find. Good job.

  104. Speak Your Truth permalink
    September 3, 2012 10:06 pm

    This is a very interesting find on Oliver DeMille’s supposed 4 or 5 degrees, and as far as I am concerned it says more about his integrity and character. How important do you think honesty and integrity is to the Team LIEfers?

    Wonder why orrin and cronies are promoting Mr DeMille’s books, homeschooling program, having him speak at the LIEf convention and publishing his book; 1913 and DeMille return some of the same favors? Money! I have no doubts why orrin would have found this clone.

    From my experience it is quite obvious, First , the most obvious is the MONEY, and then they think this is or can be used as a ‘credibility card’…You decide how credible you think Mr. DeMille is when you read the link, Lastly, it is somewhere they could dump their LIEf materials and their personal written books,* which orrin promotes DeMille and visa versa, then they can claim they have customers and are selling their books to the; “George Wythe University” and “Thomas Jefferson Education” or TJEd.


    ***Warning, you will need some patience but worth the read. It is very long but could be extremely valuable information and save someone from being mislead. This blogger obviously put a lot of time into the research.

    I have to say I kept anticipating throughout the entire blog post that I would see mention of the MLM Oliver DeMIlle was a part of but it never transpired! Funny, the blogger does mention cults though.

    Mr. DeMille’s strategies wreak so much of an MLM and orrin that I was shocked it was never mentioned. Although Mr. DeMille’s mentors and some people those mentors support along with some very interesting facts about them; were mentioned. I didn’t search to see if any were ever tied to an MLM.

    What I gathered from reading the link was that Oliver DeMille and Orrin use many of the same tactics, very eerie: changing, covering up information, i.e. damage control mentioned, beefed up self promotions/credentials/degrees, lies, the obvious more concern for image rather than character, bait & switch techniques with seminars and religious agenda, (mentioned in another post) and then the recruiting process to the Face to Face with Greatness, seminars, also mentioned in an earlier comment.

    The readers can decide for themselves, but as for me, I would never have anything to do with his program, his affiliation to orrin & Lief, nor will I ever buy any of his books and certainly would use his homeschooling program.

    All of my comments are based on my findings, experience, and opinions.

  105. Speak Your Truth permalink
    September 3, 2012 10:19 pm


    Haha…”It’s almost like bad textbook”…

    You nailed it! Wow so people were following orrin and other pc for almost a decade and half and they supposedly showed the plan wrong? Seriously? Unfreakin beliveable.

    No wonder they have to keep pilling the lies to cover up the last lie (they claim they are Christian, just wondering where it says in the Bible “lying” is the right thing?

    ..More cultic tactics, they have to re-write their experiences and history in order to not be crushed under their own conscience! How else could they continue; sadly they deny the truth, lie to themselves and others and ultimately have sold their souls for that almighty buck. Glad I am gone!

  106. Speak Your Truth permalink
    September 3, 2012 10:23 pm

    should say: Wouldn’t use his homeschooling program.

  107. Speak Your Truth permalink
    September 3, 2012 10:49 pm


    Funny how they are splitting the dough up on the publishing gig? At least it appears that way. Brady with his own publishing job through Amazon and “Signature Management Team, LLC.” or orrin with Barnes n Noble?…These guys are the most greedy cons, I have ever personally met.

    It is a shame they have mastered deception and have so many others fooled with their fake fascade of “they aren’t in it for the money”… lies….Amazing how they say that out of one side of their mouth and brag to high heavens about their material ill-gotten gains out of the other/ Then self-proclaim humility and people fall for it! People need to stop and Think, use their own brains, and senses….they would save themselves days, months, or possibly years of hell; if only they would watch the comp plan videos, read the LIEf P&P then use their common sense then everyone would see the lies and fakers they really are.

  108. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    September 4, 2012 4:09 am

    Speak: (regarding your post on the “4 or 5 degrees”) I had actually reprinted part of what Woodward said about Demille’s work, the new book ‘1913’. Here it is again in case you missed it buried in prior posts:

    “My good friend and scholar Oliver DeMille, author of the bestseller Thomas Jefferson Education, is finishing up a fascinating book on the force shifts of 1913. Few people understand and explain the movements toward and away from freedom like DeMille. Simply put, he is humble enough to continue learning and intelligent enough to be a veritable genius. This is a potent combination for simplifying the concepts of freedom. Here is a portion of the introduction I wrote for DeMille’s instant classic.

    Oliver DeMille’s soon to be released book gives the background story of the founders intentions and the fatal force shifts that hinder our freedoms. In truth, the four force shifts described in DeMille’s new book are painful enough on their own, but disastrous when combined:

    1. The general welfare clause
    2. The Federal Reserve bill
    3. The income tax amendment
    4. The democratic election of senators

    America must turn back from the precipice and return to the path of freedom. DeMille’s book is a torch to carry on freedom’s path. Western Civilization needs more leaders like DeMille who are willing to learn, live, and share their stories of freedom. This book is essential reading, a primer of freedom or anyone desiring to live free.” (author: Orrin Woodward)

    We KNOW that Woodward wants to get his welfare message and anti-fed banking message out, among others. I guess he found an ally in ‘Diploma’ Demille, eh?

    [Editor’s note: Added blockquote tag for better readability]

  109. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    September 4, 2012 4:15 am

    @webelieved: I had to crack up, too at: Woodward’s “almost like a bad textbook” LOL!!!!

    Thanks for all of your work on what to expect. Unfortunately, there won’t be any help coming from the wifey–she’s got hew own agenda (if truth be told, she considers herself a “princess” of sorts), and she’s been causing us silent heartache for years. We thought, in this instance, she would take a stand, but she won’t—she’s a tough one to explain….maybe this will help: her license plates have an abbreviated “whatever” on them. So, if it ain’t about her, i.e., unless she comes literally crying to me about some infraction committed against her by my son, she doesn’t have time (read that to mean empathy) for others concerns. Just wait…wait until this foolishness causes her to not be able to get her nails or hair done….

  110. Cali permalink
    September 4, 2012 8:01 am

    I would agree she will get sucked in soon, especially when the women come around and she hears their stories.I know that is a really good tactic; putting the women on stage and telling their heartwrenching stories.

  111. Speak Your Truth permalink
    September 4, 2012 8:08 am


    Thanks for all your efforts. It is not surprising to me that orrin has parasitically attached himself to DeMille. That is what he does has always done to everything and everyone that will ‘serve’ his agenda or get him in the ‘public spot light’, their business is built on fake credibility.

    I have not read any of DeMille’s books and am sure there would be some things I may agree with. But I also know he is promoting orrin woodward & chris brady and I already know what they are willing to sell out to.

    I know from experience they do not practice what they preach, have done many unethical things, lied, deceived, mislead..etc. Now that I have read that link in full, and know DeMille is promoting them, etc..I would not trust Oliver DeMille as far as I could throw him.

    It doesn’t matter to me, If your message is good, truthful, etc, if the person is willing to lie, decieve, & mislead,(for whatever reason, monetary or otherwise) and to mislead others to try and make themselves ‘appear’ great or better than they really are etc.. Then I could careless…about your message or “what or how much you know,”

    Everything begins and ends with Trust or lack thereof; in my book. If you are willing to lie, mislead others about yourself etc., and then promote criminals<IMO, then it is highly likely, you will do this in any and all areas; just to serve your selfish agenda. “The end justifies the means”…orrin moto.

    People hire marketing firms to try and pay for 'reputation management', haha which I think is just hysterical that they would waste so much money on something that not only doesn’t work, but is in most cases a epic failure and ends up making them look even worse! NO one believes the marketing BS today, and can obviously see right through it! This doe not work! You 'earn' your 'reputation' and no amount of money can buy you a good one! People and the Truth ALWAYS, Find you out by your actions!

    They must love sticking their heads in the sand to continue to convince (themselves) they are 'great' and obviously people everyday are figuring them out of who they really are, no one else is believing it. This is orrin & cronies M.O. they must find someone to attach themselves to that they think makes themselves 'appear' credible and of course for their other reasons to serve their agenda, and then… Walla.. they are ‘world recognized leaders” haha, that only works long enough until people, realize it is their game and all a bunch of hype…

    I do not believe, most people just believe whatever someone says about themselves, not today when corruption and scams are so rampant! But in Team LIEf they have this covered, temporarily at least and is WHY orrin demands edification/worshipping from EVERYONE in the cult environment.

    It fools almost all in the beginning, unfortunately like your son, including all us on here and many, many others who then just foolishly repeat whatever they hear, without checking out if it is true or not. This is manipulation.. and buys the LIEfers time long enough to suck as much money out of as many pockets and for as long as possible…. or UNTIL they find Amthrax site and others. Then the crack (doubt) and the ‘undue influence’ begins to break down.. others will start to 'question' and then slowly, their own critical thinking begins to work. They then begin to see with their own eyes and ears; what they always knew in their 'gut'…things just didn't add up and they begin, eventually find the truth, realize they have been duped and betrayed….then they escape :)!

  112. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    September 4, 2012 3:40 pm

    @Speak: so you guys aren’t fibbing, are you, when you say he actually wants/expects to be edified? That’s just plain spooky! And is his motto: ‘the end justifies the means’ actually what he says? (or did you just mean that in a literary sense). I’m just stupified at all of this–I gotta start going back now in earlier blogs…wish I had done that to begin with.

    @webelieved and @Cali: yeah, when I found out (as he was screaming at the top of his lungs at his mother, of course) when he yelled: I’ve already read 10 books and have listened to 7 CDs!!!!, and evidently by that time had been to multiple meetings–all by 8/10/12. When I talked to my sister today, she told me that when we had a big party at the very end of July, he had told her he’d been at a big meeting for something on 7/25…..okay, now we know for SURE he was at the Bradley center….and this was one of his kids’ birthdays, too. And so it begins: the absence from home. (Granted, we had a party for her on another day, but heck….seems odd to me).

  113. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    September 4, 2012 6:36 pm

    @webelieved: Well, looky here: you are right. There is great similarity between LIFE/Team and Scientology:

    “In plain English, the purpose of Scientology ethics is to eliminate opponents, then eliminate people’s interests in things other than Scientology”.

    (Source: Stephen A. Kent (September 2003). “Scientology and the European Human Rights Debate: A Reply to Leisa Goodman, J. Gordon Melton, and the European Rehabilitation Project Force Study”. Marburg Journal of Religion, as retrieved by Wikipedia )

    Let’s see: they eliminate family and friends and sequester you in LIFE
    Then, they narrow your focus so you just read their own cd’s and books
    And then, you’re whole life becomes LIFE.

    Yup, just like Scientology. Hey! Let’s call them the LIFE/Team Thetans! LOL!!

    (To those lucky enough to not know this–and note–I, too, just learned it from a young friend on Facebook who explained it when he made mention of this word: Thetans in Scientology are alien spirits who have lived in many alien cultures before coming to earth and actually earning the highest level, which is being a Thetan)

  114. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    September 4, 2012 6:52 pm

    Speak, etal: hmmmmmm, I’ve been thinking….I would NOT be surprised if Woodward and Brady were a John Birch Society members. Why?

    Just to name a few things they’ve recently been involved in (after some decades of being rather shunned for what was considered their overboard belief in some conspiracy theories and the fact that the far right wingers thought that the Birchers were even too far right for them; but note: they are supported by Mormonism, too–I had no idea some Mormons are so political–and NOTE: I am not criticizing, merely surprised):

    “We believe that a Constitutional Republic, such as our Founding Fathers gave us, is probably the best of all forms of government”

    “The Society has been active in supporting the auditing of, and aims to eventually dismantle, the Federal Reserve System. The JBS believes that the United States Constitution gave only Congress the ability to coin money, and did not intend for it to delegate this power to a banking monopoly, or to transform it into a fiat currency not backed by gold or silver.”

    (Source: Principles of the JBS,1962; and Sara Just ‘The Far Right John Birch Society–2010″ from ABC news as retrieved by Wikipedia)

    This stuff is right up Woodward’s etal alley….going to see if I can find more…but I think I’ve posted a lot already that points to the holding of these beliefs, too, especially the wanting to go back to the founding fathers, and the banking and the now repeated mention of “fiat currency”…….Woodward has lambasted about that more than once, eh?

  115. Speak Your Truth permalink
    September 4, 2012 9:21 pm


    I wish I were fibbing! This is the number 1 way these guys gain undue influence. It is why you see the defenders, defend orrin and the PC even though they may have never met them or know anything about them. They have no clue, and are mesmerized by these gods that the entireTEAM lifts up. They control, manipulate and earn instant and blind ‘trust’ with this technique. It is a continuous bombardment of idolatry. Trust trumps everything, and without the idolatry of orrin and the rest he would be a no body, or at best just like everyone else. It gets others to over look the real truth about them and makes the environment and everyone in it ‘appear’ like they walk on water. It is phony and unnatural performance. Who does this to this extreme, outside of the cults.. MLM twisted world?

    It’s all part of the step by step process to get others to be in admiration, listen to (not question) and no doubt people act like they are in awe of them. Get them to a seminar and they believe they just walked into a mystical experience with a bunch of people who walk on water. You are expected to treat the PC as if they do walk on water; carry their bags, open doors, take a bullet for these self proclaimed gods and the ‘culture’ and their demands perpetuate it.

    The newbie is clueless so they don’t know it is demanded they think it is all so genuine, most of it is not. You could have been in a week, not know a soul, have an upline who is a pedophile and not know it, but you will be edifying them, I guarantee it.. just because everyone else has. They quickly learn to play Simon says without question, knowing anything about who they edify or a second thought. It is also another way to manipulate the leaders by stroking egos; orrin is a master ego stroker/ manipulator, so he uses this to do just that to the ‘leaders.’

    Their edification is so constant it breeds arrogance and is why the PC walks around as if they are gods they start to believe all this hyped up glorification about themselves and act like they should be treated as the President of the United States. They use it for punishment and reward also. Because the business is built on deception, it would not survive without it, and they rely on making gods out of others or no one would listen to them. If you don’t have orrin/pc/ or someone ‘edifying’ you, people in that environment will not listen to you and then think you aren’t a “leader”.

    Vulnerable people will fall hard for this, especially people who have no one recognizing or praising them, outside the cult. They know this and therefore, use it to the hilt. It is sick. They abuse the needs of others with this. Imagine yourself in a room of thousands of people and every one of them doesn’t get a sentence away from idolizing orrin or their upline. But the environment demands it so people think it’s…wow.. so positive and ‘look’ how ‘respected’ orrin, the pc, and others are, orrin must be a demigod. They then fall for or come to ‘believe’ they are in the presence of “greatness”.

    So you see the “edification” really is only meant for inside their cult and is used to get you to follow and blindly trust. Orrin loves to use the quote: “Grown Men Die for it and Babies Cry for it!”

    They will argue it is just saying ‘nice’ things about others, but the hypocrites don’t ‘edify’ anyone outside of their fake world. You don’t have to look far to see everyone of the PC “de-edify” the outside world, govt. bosses, corp. world, family, friends, Pastors… ANYTHING that isn’t of them.

    I personally witnessed this and saw orrin years ago subtly becoming the sick narcissist he is and I have personal knowledge he has scolded others when he felt they ‘edified’ a couple of the PC ‘too’ much from stage and him not enough!

  116. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    September 5, 2012 5:46 am

    @Speak: you said: “Get them to a seminar and they believe they just walked into a mystical experience with a bunch of people who walk on water.” “The newbie is clueless so they don’t know it is demanded they think it is all so genuine, most of it is not.”

    I know you speak the truth…..I’ve seen so many of these things in my son in a very short time! It’s so sick and twisted. NO WONDER my son said he found “the answers to the universe.”

  117. Cali permalink
    September 5, 2012 8:35 am

    @wisdom: yes what speak is saying about edifying without even knowing the person is true. And they don’t care to know. I remember one of the last functions I went to (I apologize if I had mentioned this elsewhere on this blog), I saw a man I knew had raped a woman I knew and I told my upilne that I was uncomfortable seeing him at the functions (I didn’t say why, just knew something really awful about him). All the upline said is “well, people can change.” Why, yes I suppose that’s true but with this blanketted “positive thinking” it doesn’t allow for common sense to step in and put a limit on some things like there should be. I am not sorry that I don’t want to be in the same place as a rapist (as far as I know, he reamined low on the totum pole). Again, it was another step closer to the door for me.Knowing they would defend anyone being there for the sake of edification even if they were really a “nobody” put a light bulb in my head about how geniune people were.

    I also remember standing at a function in the back, and these two young guys were staring me up and down, like pigs oggling me. And I mentioned how it made me uncomfortable so someone and they told me not to let anyone steal my dream and maybe I should be more mindful of how I was dressed. Ugh… Another step closer. I am just sorry it took so many steps. I was young and naive. Finding out through the comments that single women who built this didn’t get the credit and were criticized for being arrogant when expecting some recognition doesn’t surprise me. If you are a woman, you are still lower than a man even if he is scum.

  118. Speak Your Truth permalink
    September 5, 2012 9:27 am

    There is so much to be said about how they ‘use’ “Edification” to gain ‘power’ OVER you…”Undue Influence.” It is thee most powerful and effective manipulation ‘tool’ they have and can never be overstated.

    It is their #1 most effective cardinal rule. Clearly, this is the quickest way to gain undue influence, and stripping others of their “critical thinking” faculties.

    People and am sure Amway and their attorney’s wonder how orrin got thousands to ‘follow’ (overnight or as it ‘appeared’) into the ‘unknown’ promised Wal-Mart of the internet…This did NOT happen overnight as some may believe. It took YEARS of indoctrination and orrin first scheming a plan and then deliberately manipulating leaders through soliciting, the use of “edification”> gaining undue influence or what orrin would call “building up bank accounts”..a deliberate way and more manipulation, and is nothing more than stoking of ego’s which in turn gained him the trust he needed from the biggest leaders; who then had influence in their groups to carry out his schemed plan.

    So he spent years pretending he was genuine and cared/loved his leaders and ‘best friends’…which gained him unquestionable trust or “buy in” as he would call it… more manipulation and “edification” of him for years gained this and it appeared at least at first to have worked like a charm or at least it ‘appeared’ it was.

    The leaders ‘believed’ he would do just what he said he would do. without question (because he is such a Godly man of his word..lie) because he was “edified” by the TOP leaders all the way down to the unsuspecting newbie who had no clue… edifying such as: he is a “Godly man” so full of “integrity”…who would NEVER do anything or “leave no one behind”.. hurt the masses or those leaders business. He is a genius (demigod) and visionary who is going to “change the world”…blah blah blah (worshipping/edification).. who will take everyone to the “Promised Land” where the flow of milk and honey is for All!

    He convinced people because of the bombardment of praise and worship of himself (edification) that he was so noble, selfless, and heroic, just ask him, he will tell ya. This ONLY worked because he had Everyone “edifying” him for all those years and if you were a ‘leader’ who was unfortunate enough to get close to this narcissist….he would “plant seeds” of how ‘great he was’ to you constantly and after he spent your time listening to how “great he is” he would stroke your ego and say “go get it done”.. These behind the scenes hints orrin would give leaders in turn they would edify more and send little secret messages of what he the god (orrin) was doing for ‘us all! … That worked for a while and was going ‘just as planned’… until He became so full of himself, he thought he had a flawless plan…he actually thought Amway would buckle to his “leveraged” (all those numbers= people) but as we all know it, backfired and didn’t quite go as planned.

    Clearly all the leaders..he ‘sold out’/betrayed and ruined their entire businesses (because of undue influence) and years of their dedication, loyalty to the cult leader..Their efforts flushed down the toilet as it appeared overnight.

    He and a few of his ‘good ole boy/yes men’ who kept blindly trusting right..continue off the cliff and the ‘new plan’ became cut throat desperation…they decimated leaders entire organization…allowing a few of the yes men in control and to carry the marching orders to destruct, destroy, and steal, and in return for their “loyalty” he ‘rewarded’ them for being good little “followers” with some “special deals”.

    They took from those who built it and gave their earned business to others, who did not earn it! It became a Greed festival.

    As it all turns out it was a tremendous blessing for many, and especially for us personally. No question or denying on our part, how evil orrin and his follower- yes-men are. Had all this not happened, he would still have many more worshipping him, and that is dangerous! We chose our ethics, morals, to keep our integrity and refused to sell our souls and our friends out for a worthless piece of silver, as I personally know many chose the same.

    The greatest lesson of all DO NOT put your trust in orrin or any other person for that matter..they are false profiteers. Orrin’s true selfish motives clearly have been exposed. There is much more to this twisted story, but it is clear and a message of hope for all who have a loved one sucked in… no matter the strong hold..or how much undue influenced is gained through edification/ manipulation; it will never last or be 100% full proof. Because as in all cults…they can never deliver what they promise!

  119. Speak Your Truth permalink
    September 5, 2012 10:07 am


    Thanks for sharing that and I am sorry for your experience. It is a very desperate and destructive place to get trapped…the MLM world game players, play.. is based in greed, all else is “fake it til you make it.” Pretty sick, and I doubt for a second would you had told them of the rapist, they would still came back with the same rehearsed answer. But I wonder if it would become serious to them if this guy wanted to around their daughter?

    These guys are masters at creating and “blaming” victims. Yes people change but in their environment it is only temporary therefore only artificial behavior modification occurs and they do control your mind and almost every other area of your life, so it may ‘appear’ people have lasting change but in reality they are just conforming to the pressure of the ‘culture’ and environment .

    They change no one, they alter your mind, and especially aren’t going to ‘change’ a rapist, but they do believe they have the answers to every problem, so orrin is arrogant enough he things he can change anything, but the testimonies of lasting or permanent results shout differently.

  120. September 5, 2012 3:04 pm

    Just been reading through, but a note on Mormonism, the way the belief system is actually set up as a theocratic system with its own laws, ordinances, spirituality, justice system, that sort of thing. In the beginning of Mormonism, there were groups of this sect that controlled its members with it’s own government. It’s not surprising that Mormons will want power in a currently-ruling gov’t so that those under the gov’t will be ruled under Mormon dictates. The exact same goes for Jehovah’s witnesses and Muslims. And yes, even my own religion, Judaism, was a theocratic society in the ancient days.

    So in short, it’s very natural for Mormons to want to go political.

    I’ve said this time and time again, I’m offended by the fact that they use religion. As a messianic jew, I was wondering to myself “why am I coming to this meeting on shabbat?” type thing. It really should’ve been a no-brainer to me, but the promise of getting my family off of welfare was too tantalising…

  121. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    September 8, 2012 5:35 am

    webelieved: I saw the special on cults again last night. It’s eery, isn’t it, to see a business run on principles like some of the infamous maniacs ran theirs, albeit LIFE is more about blind financial rape during the blind conformity.

  122. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    September 8, 2012 5:51 am

    Quote from a LIFEr: “Thank you Matt [Mielke]! You and Michelle will never realize the impact your example has made on my life. I feel truly blessed to be in this battle with such incredible Godly men and women of courage and character. Keep making a difference and spreading truth, your ripple effect is spreading through eternity… there is no better profession than what we do in LIFE!” (Kristen S’s blog page; she is from Waukesha, WI, just about 35 miles from me)

    This type of adoration is just plain spooky!! They’re in a “battle” and Orrin Woodward speaks of war strategies and ‘domesticating’ once they slay the enemy, eh? Jesus! I want my gown son back and out of this s*h*t!!!

    NOTE: I have been scouring sources: it seems in SE Wisconsin, the majority of the cult members live in areas surrounding: Whitewater (PC Hawkins lives there, of course) , Janesville, and Fort Atkinson, with some in Madison, of course and further south: Racine,

  123. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    September 8, 2012 5:52 am

    oops: above post correction “gown son” = grown son

  124. September 8, 2012 7:53 am

    Servile flattery is an MLMer mainstay-makes me gag!

  125. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    September 8, 2012 8:10 am

    exambot: yes! Those are the correct words: ‘servile flattery’…..that’s all I see from blog to blog…and like robots, they repost god Orrin’s words and his blogs, too… if they all sit by the pool of LIFE, and reflect deeply upon his words. I had to laugh when I read how one young man, in reference to the 1913 book by “Diploma” Demille (which was published by Woodward, of course, and with the book preamble written by Woodward, of course) claimed it was such a shame that most people in the United States do not have an inkling as to what the book info revealed about the sad state of US affairs.

  126. Soon2BOut permalink
    September 8, 2012 7:22 pm

    Ugh, I hated sitting on the floor part of the arena during majors. You couldn’t even cat nap…because everyone would then see you. If I tried to sit up with the rest of my team, id get yelled at. It was supposed to make me look cooler, and more powerful if I sat with all the “huge leaders”. It was always too cold or too hot on the floor…and the seats. UGH, so uncomfortable. And of course, we were expected to stand up and cheer for EVERYONE. I got some very dirty looks once because I had to go to the bathroom during Orrin’s speech. Like, how could I dare go to the bathroom during God…err I mean, Orrin’s speech.

  127. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    September 9, 2012 6:14 am

    Soon2BOut: Potential bad news for me……”Thank you Chris and Terri Brady for serving the team in WI! Standing room only!” (Dan Hawkins)!/danhawkinsteam/media/slideshow?

  128. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    September 9, 2012 12:36 pm

    webelieved: no, I was talking about being able to find my family member at the meeting….there were so many there….

  129. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    September 9, 2012 12:54 pm

    Hey, you guys: did you know that TEAM/Life now has a part in this online Canadian university? They give the LIFE Mental Fitness Challenge there, according to Woodward:

  130. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    September 9, 2012 1:43 pm

    Yikes! webelieved: it’s a full online Christian course!

  131. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    September 9, 2012 3:14 pm

    webelieved: Online “degree”

  132. Speak Your Truth permalink
    September 18, 2012 4:04 pm


    How are you doing with your son? Has he quit yet?

  133. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    September 19, 2012 5:03 am

    Speak: honestly do not know….have a few people here trying to find out, too—so far, we haven’t found anyone who’s been solicited to join—unless because of me, it’s all been kept hush-hush. I don’t know if this is good or bad—knowing him, it’d be more likely for him to get out early on if he keeps getting people who’d refuse to join.

  134. Speak Your Truth permalink
    September 19, 2012 5:46 am


    I believe you are right although I doubt anything could be kept hush-hush because it is pretty hard to do when you are a “recruiter” and a proud one at that; you have to shout from the roof tops you are involved with something ‘changing your life.’

    More than likely if his “names list” has ran out(haha because of you) then he would have to resort to “cold contacting” (strangers). That takes twice as long to find ‘a’ person and is not very productive, because you lose the “trust” factor. People are on to the scam.:)This is when most start to get discouraged because they can’t “get anyone to cjoin”.

  135. Speak Your Truth permalink
    September 19, 2012 5:47 am

    “join” not cjoin. It is just a matter of time. :)Hope things quickly turn around for you.

  136. Soon2BOut permalink
    September 19, 2012 12:51 pm

    Wisdom, check your mail :).

    I want to meet him. Face to face. I got a way for that to happen.

  137. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    September 19, 2012 2:33 pm

    I checked my mail….nothing from you….

  138. Soon2BOut permalink
    September 19, 2012 7:46 pm

    i re-sent it. check it soon.

  139. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    September 22, 2012 12:47 pm

    LOL!! Woodward is at it again…on 9/1712, he’s he starts out quoting Albert Einstein (on financial compounding of interest) in launching into a big, explanatory leadership blog, using the analogy of hand-pumping at an old-fashioned well (i.e., the point is: to keep on trying no matter what and that it should become the 9th wonder of the world, no less!) ….but what he’s forgetting to tell the others in this analogy…sometimes, baby, the well is DRY and you could pump ’til you DIE. Just another method to get people to stick with it to pump more money up to the top. He’s simply amazing! They stop at nothing with the propaganda…in the rest of the blog, he goes on and on about how today’s advertisers are snowing people–what a hoot! We all know the history of advertising to the masses, but at least most times the advertisers are selling tangible commodities.

    Here’s my favorite quote from the claptrap:

    “By continuously working the handle up and down, one would eventually hear and feel the pump prime itself and draw water to the surface. In contrast, if at anytime during the priming process, the person responsible for working the handle became despondent or lackadaisical because of repeated efforts without water, the prime would not hold, and the process had to be repeated from the beginning. To achieve results then, one must pump repeatedly, ignoring the lack of evidential progress, until the well water is borne up from the well.”

    And PS, folks…in this same blog, he wants to save civilization again, but this time he’s attacking work ethic instead of all of the wrong educations we got! LOL!!

    “Nevertheless, I refuse to give up hope or sit idly by and watch our once great civilization quietly decline. In reality, we can turn this around if we are willing to apply a heavy dose of thinking and work ethic.”

    [Editor’s Note: added blockquotes]

  140. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    September 22, 2012 1:04 pm

    And let’s not forget the HBRN video….I did not hear Cluade Hamilton or Orrin Woodward say even ONE thing of substance here……I wouldn’t be surprised if Woodward isn’t behind the moderator and radio network, too.

    “The Home Business Radio Network made history today with the launch of The Leadership Factory with Leadership Guru Orrin Woodward! ” (quote on Utube underneath video)

  141. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    October 16, 2012 9:05 am

    Elizabeth posted this over on the anti-LIFE/Team fB page. This is an excellent, general review of cult-type businesses which exist and what happens to various individuals and who prime targets are, etc.:

  142. Melanie Morgan permalink
    October 16, 2012 12:38 pm

    Great Article. 🙂 Wonder WHY they never address the “cult” issue? Hmm….

    That video is a perfect example of a narcissistic personality, and self-deception, with a lot of stroking of ego’s or arse kissing to be blunt. Orrin states either peopl(e love him or hate him because he tells them the truth? UM…self-deceived for sure, he ought to check his own “score board” (remember it doesn’t LIE) and if he doesn’t know what the “score” is he ought to call up every single leader who left and ask them if it was because he told them the TRUTH….Astounding the self-deception!

    Think real hard about WHY, ALL those leaders left! But hey he will continue to lie to himself, what ever takes to deceive the masses and himself or makes him feel better, denial will always be on his side!

  143. Tracy Joslin permalink
    March 20, 2016 12:15 pm

    Everyone on here sounds like a bunch of cry babies. The books I read are from successful people, out there for everyone to read. The one thing I have not heard on here is a way to become financially free or financially successful. Everyone can be a critic but it takes a leader to come up with a solution. Everything has its negatives and positives. I choose to focus on the positives. I am a better person because of the Amway business and the Yager system.

  144. amused permalink
    March 22, 2016 6:07 pm

    Seriously? You haven’t heard anyone on here anywhere suggest a way to be financially free or successful? Then you haven’t really been paying attention. So pay attention now:
    A) Get a job doing something you like that pays well and budget your money properly and responsibly so you’re not in debt.
    B) Do you look down your nose at the idea of having a job? (gasp!) You want to be your own boss? Fine, then start your own legitimate business doing something you enjoy and be the boss.

    There’s two suggestions that are a better way than being a slave to an mlm company. Mathematically, unless you are the one that starts the mlm and you sit at the top of the triangle shaped company structure, you will never succeed financially in this. And you will waste an awful lot of your time and money trying.

    And there’s been plenty of people on here that have said this kind of stuff over and over and over, so just stop with that tired “argument” that is supposed to justify the so-called validity of working your mlm company. “Oh yeah, well what’s better?” A real job! Your own business!

  145. freedomhaha permalink
    March 23, 2016 7:34 am

    Tracy- Leaving a cult that sucked my money and started my OWN (not Orrin’s) business was a great start.

  146. Frank R permalink
    March 23, 2016 3:27 pm

    Federal Securities Law rules ViSalus a Pyramid Scheme.

  147. Anonymous permalink
    March 24, 2016 3:27 am

    I found this article on gullibility – some of it’s points hit home on mlm recruitment.

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