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Refusing to Face the Facts

October 1, 2012

There’s a great article on (formerly titled, “Why some of us refuse to face facts (yes, ‘birthers,’ that includes you”. It explains how people continue to cling to their beliefs even when presented with incontrovertible facts pointing to the contrary. The article provides three examples of modern-day myths: Obama’s birthplace, climate change, and the link between autism and vaccinations.

This should be required reading for MLM members — such as those in TEAM/LIFE — who continue to cling to many false beliefs. Within this website and other resources like the new Is Orrin Woodward’s Life/Team business destructive? Facebook group, there are many facts which show the dark underbelly of the TEAM/LIFE business. Yet, TEAM/LIFE members continue to believe that they will become financially free if they continue to follow the 8F’s, listen to CD’s and read the books. Why is that?

One reason is because they’ve bought into the worldview espoused by Orrin Woodward. From the article:

It’s cognitively easier for our minds to trust a lie — if it supports our deepest convictions — than it is to reject information that requires some mental sweat to assess.

Orrin Woodward and the leaders in TEAM/LIFE are catering to their members’ political and religious beliefs (just look at Orrin’s article on Intelligent Design today) so that they look the other way when looking at the financial health of their businesses.

There are number of former TEAM/LIFE members who originally dismissed the information here on this website. At some point, however, they regained their critical thinking skills and looked at this site with clear eyes. They realized that there were in fact truths being revealed on this site, truths about their leaders’ backgrounds, truths about the lies they were told, and truths about the true financially reality of being a part of TEAM/LIFE. These people made the decision to face the facts and change what they once believed to be true. You can read their testimonials on how they are better off today.

Readers: What are your thoughts on why TEAM/LIFE members refuse to face the facts?

194 Comments leave one →
  1. Steven Gittleman permalink
    October 1, 2012 12:36 pm

    Amthrax I know you are trying to make a point about the Team, and the fact that 99% of those involved will never obtain their goals and dreams. However the example that you use, two of the three examples given are devoid of facts.

    Steven Gittleman Ambassador Plumbing, Inc. Ph. 248 867 6111 Fax 248 281 2727

  2. October 1, 2012 12:38 pm

    Thought reform…at least that’s the case w/TEAM. My ex-sponsor was always telling me the I needed to change the way I think when I was still going to the meetings and sipping the juice. Then you’re so indoctrinated w/the stuff they’re teaching you, making you come to meeting after meeting at least once a week, and changing your friends from regular friends to TEAM friends you just totally lose any rational way of thinking, or ability to critically think and analyse what you’re being taught. Anyway that’s just my 2 cents, from what I experienced. I personally wanted so bad to “realise my dream” type thing that I believed what was being said.

  3. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    October 1, 2012 1:40 pm

    Gosh, I saw ‘thought reform’ in my loved one very early on in his involvement, albeit in knowing what I know now through my own research, it’s obvious he came was confused as to what they were trying to accomplish, e.g., in telling me things like “you just had a mediocre education,” he was actually not versed enough yet to couch it in the LIFE/Team dogma that they believe we were AKK taught the wrong things (not just me)–basically not how to get easily rich, I guess, to preserve Westernized culture and truly live free and unfettered in achieving all of your dreams, no matter how fanciful–LOL!!

  4. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    October 1, 2012 1:41 pm

    Yikes: AKK was supposed to read ALL

  5. October 1, 2012 5:50 pm

    @Steven – Which examples were you referring to? Please clarify.

  6. Melanie Morgan permalink
    October 1, 2012 6:54 pm


    First I wanted to say Thank You for your dedication and desire to get the facts out and allow all who come to your site to comment. I have been meaning to come on here for quite a while but was having computer issues and getting any comment to post.

    As we all know the PC and their copy cat/ mirrored/’postive’ reputation management-propaganda websites will NOT allow anyone who would disagree with them, post on any of their sites. Interesting they all expect you to but not them, funny.

    Funny, I have NEVER seen anyone who is on the team (followers) go to those websites and challenge anything Orrin or any one of them on what they have put up on their sites, like Steven Gittleman has just done on here, haha. Wonder why or perhaps someone has and the PC and their blind followers just haven’t posted it, yet haha.:)

    You would think the followers would recognize this..guess not. But I’m pretty sure it’s common knowledge there is NO “negative,”allowed by the teamers.

    Although I would guess those very same followers would be very suspicious of anyone else,(like you) who would do this, but they make the “exception” for the PC?

    Yet, I have read on here where quite a few have jumped to the conclusion that you, Amthrax wouldn’t post their post haha..quite comical, what would ever give them that idea. I have never read that you don’t allow their comments? 🙂

    Ended up they looked pretty silly jumping the gun and accusing you when their comments were in moderation and you just hadn’t gotten to it yet. Wonder why they don’t hold Orrin & the PC bloggers to those same rules and standards? Haha, sorry I find it really funny.

    I will probably be back I have to clear up some things but looking forward to sharing a few things. 🙂 Keep sharing everyone, I love reading all your comments!

    Thanks for this article, great posts, you are right; everyone should read it!

  7. Mark permalink
    October 1, 2012 7:59 pm

    I talked to my brother in law recently. He said it’s not about money anymore, it’s about change. He then said that’s what his upline told him. If he was in it for the money, he would lose. That’s his way of justifying spending THOUSANDS of dollars on overpriced books and cds. Apparently it’s not a business anymore for him, because most businesses I know try to make a profit. I gave up trying to wake him up. Let the entertainment continue.

  8. Enough! permalink
    October 2, 2012 3:05 am

    I understand the point your trying to make as well, but it would be better to use a more credible source than NBC/MSNBC when recently they have had been caught quite a few times fudging the facts/not telling the whole story (Zimmerman video, Sandusky audios, etc). However, I do agree that TEAM people are unwilling to face the facts even when it hits them in the face, but I just think using this example weakens this argument.

  9. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    October 2, 2012 3:51 am

    AMTHRAX: Wow! I just got done reading the link to Woodward’s article that you have linked up top! I simply cannot BELIEVE his claptrap!! Forget about NBC news. Why don’t the naysayers here read Woody’s article?

    LOL!! I understand how mitochondria work in cells–in fact I have a mucle disease so we folks keep up with the research. But THEN he turns THAT into arguments on the existence of a god versus an atheist/naturalist position. I’m also aware of Richard Dawkins’s work/philosophy.

    WHY is Woodward doing this to his LIFE/Teamser?!! It’s absurd beyond belief!! And it’s a very long blog, too, that just gets more convoluted! Like he’s just trying to reaffirm his own position on Christianity. Unfortunately, he may well drag the uninformed right into his snare.

    SIMPLY PUT: I can’t believe that article, Amthrax!! We go from mitochondrial cells—liken them to car parts he built for 10 years—and then launch into the old God vs Atheistic “proof” viewpoints?

  10. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    October 2, 2012 3:53 am

    Clarification: in the “snare” sentence, I was not trying to say he’d unfortunately “convert” people to Christianity; I WAS trying to say that’d he’d drag people into the biz and keep them confused.

  11. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    October 2, 2012 4:35 am

    AMTHRAX: I shouldn’t have submitted my comment so soon–I went back to keep rereading Woody’s postulations. In essence, Woodward is trying to prove the existence of God on some of the following points, but he convolutes the subject by bringing in metal machines/computers and atheism and Darwin’s evolution, etc. Basically, I think he’s saying:

    1) only his Christian God could make cellular functions work. For example: only his Christian God could make sodium and potassium and and calcium and other ion transport systems/channels that work across permeable membranes. (this, of course, is what keeps our contractile muscle in our hearts beating and allows for intra and extra cellular “respiration” through membranes for other organ system viability, all the way down to the hundreds to thousands of little mitochondria inside of cells. These transport systems have been found, in just the last 15 yrs or so, to be able to create at least 130 different disorders just in skeletal muscle cells–the muscle myopathies are the sister disorders to the muscular dystrophies)

    2) only his Christian God could think up the protein coding sequences making up our strands of DNA.

    Quite honestly, I think it would have likely been easier for the average reader who’s not as deep into human biology as some of us are, or for those who aren’t versed on the position of Richard Dawkins, Darwin and Ben Stein, etc., to simply write an article on the search for the “god particle”.

    I remember back in August when a few people on this site jumped all over my case when I expressed atheistic points of view in answer to what I thought was going on in LIFE/Team—some claimed it wasn’t important, that we should only look at the math (which I’m starting to agree with because Woodward’s writings are all over the map, using bits and pieces of history and philosophy and science to build his own version of an MLM fascist state).

    If everyone read this Woody blog you posted above near the end of your intro, they would see just how important his own position truly is in USING Christianity to become enormously wealthy off of the backs of his minions who, in truth, are giving him all of their money because they believe he’s a “good Christian” and would do them no harm. Once again, it’s the bastardization of the most basic of Christian Biblical tenets—and it allows Woodward to once again, lightly gloss over Jesus overturning the money tables of the Pharisees in the Temple.

  12. RAQUEL PETERS permalink
    October 2, 2012 4:55 am

    The members in team believe they are making a difference. They know something special. That outsiders are misinformed to enemies. They believe they are going to change the country, some used to believe Orrin should run for president. In my opinion and from six years of experience, these people are under thought reform and do not know it. They cannot see the truth of another opinion. Their minds cannot take it. Worse they hear messages that their businesses are not growing because they aren’t working hard enough, they aren’t good enough leader and need to study more, the mentor has all the answers, their ideas are not valued or important etc.. of course none of this is said as direct as I said it.

  13. AlmostIn permalink
    October 2, 2012 6:15 am

    They have blindly given all of their trust over to Woodward & Co because of the desire to have what Woodward & Co portray themselves as having (each individual his own desire chosen from the 8F’s of LIFE). Because Woodward deems himself a leader who proclaims he sees what they are lacking in all the 8F’s; he feels he has the knowledge to show them how to help themselves and others. He knows the techniques to acquire their dedication to him and his cause. Woodward is practiced at this. The people who get involved are at a vunerable period in their life and are seduced by the intimate bond that Woodward & Co’s group uses to snare them by thought reform & manipulation (all done by sociopathic character). They (the people) do not think that they will or have come in contact by disordered individuals until something (which varies for each person) snaps them out of the thought reform to see what has actually been happening to them.

  14. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    October 2, 2012 6:30 am

    Raquel: Exactly! LIFE/Team true dogma (cult tactics not unlike those of fascist states from the 1930’s)–whether expressed overtly or covertly–leads to a confounded jumble, where the vulnerable, herded and “domesticated membership populace” can only hope that since they are good, Christian people putting themselves into the hands of God’s “representative leadership business” here on earth (<—-read that as Woodward with his downline leaders as the apostles telling you just what to do for just about everything except which brand of toilet paper to buy), and said "representatives" supposedly have kind, altruistic intentions and who give you the answers to the perfect life/dream fulfillment—-that the only answer left if you eventually fail is: well, it's YOUR fault…evidently you didn't follow "the plan" to be a good Christian and achieve piggish dreams of wealth. If only you'd done it "right"—God would have answered all of your material prayers, according to "Saint Orrin" and "the Apostles".

  15. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    October 2, 2012 6:33 am

    AlmostIn: yup–I think we both just said the same thing, different ways.

  16. Raquel Peters permalink
    October 2, 2012 7:33 am

    It should say outsiders are thought of as uninformed or ignorant. If anyone speaks out against the group they are considered an enemy. Everything and everyone’s thinking, information etc. from outside the group, is made fun of from stage.

    In my opinion and experience members get a distorted view of reality while in the group. The group preys on people’s deepest desires of wanting to “belong” and wanting a better life. The group can even change a members’ world view/beliefs that have been held all their lives. Their thinking gets so twisted that eventually all the credit for all the good in their lives goes to the Team and the group and the blame for anything bad goes back on the individual or on the outside world. The LIFE/ Team leaders/mentors and group becomes their savior and they will state it.

    Your mentor’s advice trumps the advice of your pastor ,parents, brother, sister, grandma etc.The messages are “You wouldn’t take advice from a broke person”, so your parents don’t qualify. “Your mentor has the results you want in life” so you should only take their advice, only read the books they recommend and listen to the cds they recommend. You slowly become submissive to the group thinking, it’s leaders and your mentor. You have become dependent on them for all your decision making and do not even realize it because it is done a bit at a time. You listen to hours of cds that many times in the beginging are handpicked for you, based on your ocupation, struggles in life, etc. any cd that will relate to your story. These people have studied personalities and know how to manipulate you and you will have no clue.

    You are not supposed to question your mentor or especially the groups’ leadership, EVER.
    No one is allowed to give input into the way the business is ran unless they are at the Policy Counsel level. ONLY 7 guys out of thousands make ALL the decisions for your supposed business. (We saw what a joke that was when they changed the system every other week in MV). We were not even allowed to know how we were paid in Team profit sharing. Much is hidden from the general population of the group. Currently there are 2 ways to get paid in LIFE team, but they only tell prospects about 1. Members are supposed to just trust them….their upline and Policy Counsel. There are ZERO checks and balances in the hierarchy of the leadership. No one polices the group including the FTC. They have absolute POWER over their members and leaders.

    In my opinion this group dumbs down members’ thinking……. while touting from stage that LIFE/TEAM teaches you to think more! Many mixed messages are given in the group. It has been proven in that thought reform works well when they can keep you in a confused and submissive state. The only thing valued in the group is loyalty,conformity and working/showing the plan etc. Critical thinking, creativity, separate identity, personal boundaries, time off, family, friends outside the group, family and communty events, church, etc. is not valued by the group, even though they will say that it is. Outside activities are only valued when they are able to recruit new members. When you no longer work for the group or spend your money, you know longer are important. You basically no longer exist to members. All your so called friends, mentors etc. disappear from your life when you stop giving them your money and time.

    In my opinion this group is VERY destructive to families, individuals, communities and churches. Many people are damaged mentally/emotionally by involvement in this group and it’s aftermath, some a little bit and some severely. The majority of people will leave the group wondering what happened and believing something is wrong with them, since their business didn’t work. Many will lose thousands upon thousands of dollars. We were taught if they weren’t listening to cds they would quit. Now I know it is because they weren’t getting brainwashed and therefore they kept their ability to critically think through their involvement in the group. I had no idea i was under thought reform until i read about another well know cult and connected in my brain that in Team we were taught to use the same techniques and deception. When I came out I was in a fog mentally for a long time and it was a VERY painful process because I was ALL IN. It’s embarrassing to admit, I was a defender of Team and Orrin Woodward for many years.

    IF you have a family member or friend involved, you can help them. I would recommend secretly reading Combating Cult Mind Control and Freedom of Mind in that order. These books were written by ex-Moonie and internationally known Cult Expert ,Steve Hassan. Know there are professionals like Steve that can help you and your family get a loved one out. I also recommend not saying a word about the books etc. until you are educated. My brother told me Team was a cult a week after getting in…. and I laughed at him. I dismissed his concern and actually made fun of that on stage. I had already, that early in the game, been prepped for that by the group……My brother tried but he may have saved me years of heartache had he had the knowledge and back up to help me get out. 😦

    ***My comments are my opinions based on years of experience in this group.

  17. October 2, 2012 1:11 pm

    @Melanie – Thanks for the comment (it was held in moderation, since it was your first). Will enjoy reading your commentary here in the future.

  18. Raquel Peters permalink
    October 2, 2012 3:10 pm

    Melanie- Good to see you here! I can’t wait to read your posts. I wonder if they are calling me a nameless faceless coward…..or maybe crazy…..or whatever other lies they like to say. Amthrax I am working on a rebutal article to Eric Blomdahl’s b.s. Criticism post….should be interesting….funny how Teamers require ZERO evidence to believe his claims. It is ok though since the truth sets you free and I would love to share the evidence I have that they are lying. 🙂

  19. Cali permalink
    October 2, 2012 4:54 pm

    Good post. The original article referred to wasn’t the most well laid-out as far as listing the overwhelming evidence but it makes very good points. This goes back to what I think I posted before; that there is an overall “mind-control” that happens in our society so it is not hard for me to believe people could be so easily duped into MLM schemes like this one. People feel aliented in this culture to begin with. Having an Us VS. Them mindset along with a group to fit into is sought after on so many levels in a person’s life.

  20. Melanie Morgan permalink
    October 2, 2012 8:11 pm

    Raquel~ Same to you!I have been reading your comments, right on the ‘money.’ 🙂

    Nameless, Faceless, Cowards, yep, yep… I noticed this to be a pretty common thing from those trying to defend orrin & others on here; it seems to be the accepted name calling game they all play.

    But then you and I both knew this, it is what is regurgitated from stage on a very consistant basis, that the speakers try to be funny with. I don’t recall anyone thinking it funny “outside” of them, (but lest not forget; consistancy is one of those success
    principles)so I guess, blast on teamers..much “criticism” does goe on inside their very tiny world. 🙂

    Bosses, J.O.Bee’s, Gov’t, T.V.,Relatives & Friends (who aren’t a part of their “family”),they all pretty much suck according to them,or should I say, them are naysayers, internet haters, quitters, broke losers, ,on the 45yr plan/gerbel wheel:Sounds more like our experience when we were on the Team.

    Lets give credit where credit is due, right?…Now, name calling would be the polar opposite of their ‘teachings,’ that would be considered a lack of leadership, self-control, (EQ, AQ, and IQ haha), don’t think it would be considered very chrisitian either, but apparently they don’t follow their own teaching!

    Forget the “teaching” it only applies to others anyway. Of, course,there are names to call everyone else;outside them.. duh, haha 🙂

  21. Melanie Morgan permalink
    October 2, 2012 8:43 pm


    Not about the money ANYMORE, REALLY? Hahahahaha! Perhaps he should ask Orrin and the other PC if they have NOW stopped paying themselves AND where and what are they doing with all those MULTI-MILLIONS they are collecting from their downline? Are they giving all that MONEY back to the downline from whence they get it! Are they ‘acting as’ a savings plan, 401K, investment, financial holding institute.. for every individual;the downline making “that change?”

    When we were involved, that is not how that worked at all. The TOP 7 people got the lions share, perhaps they’ve had a ‘change of heart’ and decided to give it all back to the “worker bee’s?” Orrin broke off of Dexter Yager’s System in Amway, because he didn’t like it they were ‘sharing’ enough with Him & Laurie and wanted to make sure the “newest” guy made money right away! But from what I have seen with the Comp Plan Video’s & Analysis, it would appear something isn’t “adding up” and would seem that statement: it “isn’t about the money”, it’s about Ludicrous!

    Tell me your brother-in-law was joking and doesn’t really believe that,if he does oh boy they “got him!” He can “change” for FREE!

    Or perhaps have him ask; Orrin, Why he was paying himself between 500-700,000 grand per month! (as I have seen stated) during a time when the “profit-sharing” was supposedly at it’s all time low and many of those profit-shares were only getting paid “<" a thousand bucks per month!

    Amazing…it's not about the money? Haha.. IT IS A BUSINESS OPPORTUNITY!

  22. RAQUEL PETERS permalink
    October 3, 2012 2:14 am

    Melanie- I love the sarcasm! Lol!
    It was ALWAYS about the money. They just say its not to pacify the ones not making any. If it wasn’t why isn’t Orrin, Chris and Tim offering free downloads on their site and out bringing sinners to Christ without getting paid? The mixed messages in Team are disturbing!

  23. RAQUEL PETERS permalink
    October 3, 2012 2:18 am

    For being SO smart they are really so dumb. I cannot imagine taking advice from a engineers, auto mechanic and physical therapist con men. They got their money by decieving people and using them. Would I go to Bernie for advice just because he has money? NOT.

  24. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    October 3, 2012 5:10 am

    Melanie: LOL!! Love the post. You know what? I wish you and Amthrax would get together and add to your posting name here–in parentheses, list just how high up in the Team you really were! Let those coming here for slace know that you were close enough to the top to smell the Grand Poohbah’s cologne! (or smell the direct B.S., however you want to look at it 🙂

  25. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    October 3, 2012 5:11 am

    correction: “let those coming here for SOLACE…” it whould have read

  26. Former Round Table permalink
    October 3, 2012 8:31 am

    Raquel, everything you said is right on, except for one thing. You said, “No one is allowed to give input into the way the business is ran unless they are at the Policy Counsel level. ONLY 7 guys out of thousands make ALL the decisions for your supposed business.”

    Shortly after Bill Lewis made Policy Counsel, he told us that only ONE person makes all the decisions for the business. Guess who that one person is?

  27. Melanie Morgan permalink
    October 3, 2012 9:16 am


    We spent 13 years “building” our teams and serving the “whole team” through the duration but I do not believe we were “all that and a bag of chips” but will say we “earned it” and our reward was having our groups stolen, slandered, lied to and about, promised passive residual income that obviously is a lie; poof our entire group and “passive income” just vanished into thin air..for no apparent reason,at least we weren’t given one, nor when asked for the contract were not given that either, but it is greed of course.

    It took a lot of blood, sweat, tears, money and more importantly sacrifice of our TIME away from our family and children (the most important and huge regret), which has been the most painful realization of all.

    I am not sure I am understanding clearly what you are asking. But in Amway/Quixtar we had a solid business, we reached the level of Founders Saphire, and hit and were recognized for Triple 100/ remained and held Round Table in the Team, with thousands and “on system” and attending seminars. In Monavie, we reached the level of Ruby and at it’s peek we had 8000 people in Monavie. I will try and posts some actual numbers and pay like Raquel has done.

    Remember it is a build and replace business. This is really less about us and more about the deception, lies, and damage they do to everyone. That is why I believe being anonymous doesn’t change a thing, it just distracts. People then, worry more about who you are than the message and truth. I guarantee you that anyone who reads this site, “insider or outsider”…they don’t need to “see” a “name” to know it is the truth! Why would a bunch of people waste their time or so many have the almost identical experiences, if it they were all a bunch of liars? Common Sense, should prevail. They love to use the “crediblity” and name calling.. (How else will they tear down (truth) others building to make theirs appear taller?)…They are fooling themselves, because there isn’t a person in their right mind, who can read, who would not be able to read the facts and then discern the truth.

    I will soon be adding and validating some things on here as well. Thanks and I love your posts, you have a very remarkable understanding of the dynamics, for someone who has not spent time in the illusion. 🙂

  28. Mark permalink
    October 3, 2012 9:32 am

    I let my brother in law use our basement a few months back on a tuesday so he could watch a webcast. (he doesn’t have high speed internet). Afterwards, I gave him my honest opinion. I said it was a scam, motivated by greed, and was taking all of his time and money. I told him about some of the information I read, much from this site. He said he was interested and wanted to come back to look at it. He came back a week later and guess what he brought? Yup, books and cds. I told him I never agreed to listen or read anything he had. I was just offering the information that I had. Keep in mind we were pitched by another brother-in-law over a year ago and I shot it down immediately. He got mad and said he was confused, and how he thought we were trying to understand each other. I told him I don’t need to listen to cds and read books to understand him. We went back and forth a bit. Finally, I agreed to listen to ONE cd. Needless to say, it was a joke. Something about our forefathers and how they were all business owners. Now we need to be business owners, be americans. If we work jobs, we’re dependent, like slaves were. I had a good laugh and gave him his cd back through my mother-in-law (also full blown team). He did however take the book combating cult mind control by steve hassan. Haven’t heard anything different yet. But they are so far gone, so dependent on team/life and the system, that there’s nothing I nor anyone not team related can do. Sad and crazy, and common sense went directly out the window.

  29. October 3, 2012 9:41 am

    The TEAM’s motto when we joined was, “Have Fun, Make Money, Make a Difference.” Since the first two items on that list are unattainable in TEAM/LIFE, I guess all they have left is “make a difference”, they just don’t specify whether it will be a positive or negative difference.

    How nice that TEAM has let themselves off the hook so easily! Now that they are focusing on the altruistic goal of making a difference, they can make themselves look like martyrs for the cause and they don’t have to waste an ounce of energy trying to convince the minions that they can be profitable. By taking the focus off “Make Money”, they relieve themselves of having to share ANY of the profits downline because that’s not what it’s all about anymore! How totally convenient!

  30. Melanie Morgan permalink
    October 3, 2012 9:46 am


    Haha, good for you! Stick to your guns! Oh and the “common sense went directly out the window”, clearly! But here is the thing, it will create “doubt” (their worst enemy). They will not admit this, they have to lie to themselves (the worst lie you tell) in order for them to continue on when deep inside they KNOW the truth. And sooner or later something has to give, you can’t “know and not do” without something eventually taken you out. Also, to use their beloved (agenda/propaganda/rhetoric)..”You can’t solve the problems at the same level of thinking you created them at.” And one very fundamental issue…They aren’t WILLING to give up their cash or lifestyle, for any amount of truth and it doesn’t matter that they KNOW that 99% plus will never get that coreced “lifestyle”, they ‘believe’ if 1 out of 100,000 will become PC then it is worth lying to 99,999 to achieve it, it is called “the end justifies the means!” That is why they are “planting seeds” of “it isn’t about the money, it’s about change”…because they can now say, we never told you, you would make money! While they continue to rake in their most cheirished idol…the love of all THEIR money!

  31. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    October 3, 2012 10:16 am

    Melanie: no, what I was just happily and idley suggesting was: in your name you use to post on Amthrax, for example: instead of just Melanie Morgan… had something like this “Melanie Morgan (former whatever level in team)”—-so that people coming here KNOW you have higher up, ex-team insider info—that you were near the top. (I suppose one could say that about Raquel at her level, and others at theirs, too). I think it lends a lot of credence to any post, especially when posts get lost in the long list of posts over time, and then new people coming on here a year or two later may never read the very salient info you’ve posted recently in 2012). Know what I mean? Example: someone on here posts as “Former Round Table”……….that tells us something more about that poster right away. Was just a thought.

  32. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    October 3, 2012 10:20 am

    @Mark: I got the same (I thought we understood each other and you’d do this type of attitude) response from a family member, too, when he tried to “show me the plan”—–at first he told me my money was only “for a book.” I find Amthrax in the interim, so when he calls me the next time, I say something and he got very very angry, acting as if I renegged on him, and he could not see my point of view, i.e., that this was for a membership and he had also saved me a spot at the next meeting—this was a whole lot more than “buying a book”, ‘fer cryin’ out loud. And it seems like once they get in it, they can’t help themselves that even daily conversation eventually comes around to STILL trying to sell the plan—it becomes rather life-consuming. I think Raquel mentioned that already, too.

  33. Melanie Morgan (Ex-Round Table) permalink
    October 3, 2012 10:25 am


    Oh got cha, thought you meant all the levels, good idea, I will add that, thanks. 🙂

  34. Melanie Morgan permalink
    October 3, 2012 10:39 am


    Great idea, hope you didn’t get the wrong impression from my post. I have the tendency to take the opportunity when someone says something to recall and then I can share right then. So thanks, I will be ‘adding’ (Ex-Round Table) to my name, but it went into moderation, so you will see it soon! 🙂

  35. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    October 3, 2012 10:44 am

    @ Melanie: forgot something….you know, though….it really does sort of make a difference to those of us who have never been in it directly (when we see actual names of those willing to stand up with their true names)….I mean, when I found out how high up some of you were……it made it actually more important and urgent that my loved one NOT ever run the risk of being subjected to this. (but I also truly appreciate those who come on here and also got out within a year–love the current perspectives of what they saw because I needed a better idea of what my loved one experienced in LIFE/Team). I wholeheartedly agree with you about using a non-identifiable name—because otherwise, the Amthrax-naysayers could accuse one person of doing all of this, i.e., posting under many multiple names. I just think it’s absolutely astounding how you and others like you suddenly lost it all—and I think you guys, personally lost, by standing up and doing the right thing–to speak out when you thought something unfair was being done to others, right?

  36. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    October 3, 2012 10:51 am

    Melanie: LOL, we must have been typing and submitting at the same time….gotcha on the info…and, by the way, no, I really enjoyed your initial answer to me…the MORE info, the BETTER….am so glad you people came out to tell your stories!

  37. Melanie Morgan permalink
    October 3, 2012 11:31 am


    Yes, but here is just our personal reasons. It broke our hearts, when we finally could recognize the tragedy these guys were causing in the lives of some of the most loyal and great people. We saw what the Woodwards & Guzzardo’s had become and how low they were willing to stoop for a measly (multi-millions) “piece of silver”.We watched their integrity fly out the window and how horrifing they treated others they called “their friends” meant NOTHING.

    People like the Peters (Mark & Raquel, we had another couple on our team that was Peters too), who by the way Raquel has shown more guts and integrity than anyone of those who PC, who and the rest of them who “claim to be in literal battle” on the Team. Courage like Raquels; it can MOVE MOUNTAINS.

    But as we began to witness the Woodwards & Guzzardo’s “game plan” unfold right before our eyes, over about a month, the lights were flashing and sirens blarring,of how greedy they were. What they began doing behind our backs to us and our leaders during the registration; the truth could no longer be denied or questioned.

    It was an atrocity and the beggining to the end, no matter what the “cost.” We loved and poured our hearts into these people and they are great friends as many, many others are today and would never give that up for nothing!

    The Peters, The Rodmans and EVERY SINGLE person MATTERED to us (including cross-line)and those being sucked in currently we will probably never know. These people, who had literally gave up years of their lives away from their family and friends (not to mention those that we were their “uplines” and we meant what we said, we just didn’t know it was all a lie we were perpetuating)but the way they were being treated was flat out appalling and they became vicious dicators. John & I (more JOHN :)) Stood up and said enough. We would not sit back and watch people be treated and controlled, bullied etc, they mattered to us.

    What did matter to the W & G was those leaders “people” and their bank accounts” (those they brought in) and the only thing that mattered in the end was that the Woodwards and Guzzardo’s would get it ALL!

    After years of lying to every individual that signed on the dotted line, it all became clear. Then, we knew we had a moral obligation, regardless of any “cost,” to tell others like yourself to help in someway understand with the hope that NO ONE ever will do what we did, and suffer the way so many have, NOT EVEN FOR A DAY, let alone over a decade.

    We know in our hearts we are doing our part, the rest is beyond our control, but here lies the blessing, by speaking out (or giving), we have received, understanding, thanks, healing and love! Many on here especially Amthrax, provided this forum so I feel all those gave us more than we could ever give and we are grateful, we stood up for all those people who were too afraid to speak!

    This is still a very sensative matter for me, and is exactly why we spoke out! Many people much wiser,smarter, with more resources and more damning evidence could speak out, and we hope by us giving back that somehow, they will have gotten some healing, or will have the courage or get what they need to heal.

  38. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    October 3, 2012 12:03 pm

    Melanie: well, my hat off to you and your husband, and Raquel and her husband, too. It means a lot to me–and everyone else here, I’m sure–that you guys have the guts to take a stand. If more and more would do this, just think how many might be saved from such devastation in the future, or even from just being in it for a short time and then realizing they need to get out before there’s deeperl financial and psychosocial/relationship losses to contend with. Kudos!

  39. Melanie Morgan permalink
    October 3, 2012 12:10 pm


    To make another point about “it’s not about the money.” They KNOW the odds of EVER or close to NEVER making a profit; they came up with their own pay plan…. and that to me is criminal!

  40. Mark permalink
    October 3, 2012 7:57 pm

    I really enjoy venting on here and reading the feedback from all of you. It does help and is appreciated. I have so many sad stories and examples that I have lost count. Another example: In the beginning, my father in law said they would set a certain amount of money aside for team(as an investment). Once they crossed that mark, they would quit. I honestly believe it was around $3,000. I asked my father in law a couple months ago flat out if they had crossed that point. He said yup, had to make a tough decision on his road of change. Here’s where the problem lies, and many team members fail to consider. At what point is the change enough. At what point have you read enough books and listened to enough cds that you are a good enough person and can quit. The answer: NEVER! Quitting is not an option. His reasoning was also that they were already on the road to financial ruin. Unfortunately, all they did was pick up speed.

  41. RAQUEL PETERS permalink
    October 4, 2012 3:39 am

    Road to change- that’s a cliche/cd speak.
    You are so right they are never good enough people to ever be done. Orrin gets followers to believe the reason their business hasn’t grown/their not successful yet is because their not a good enough leader. There is always a message there is something wrong with you, your character etc. In my opinion this group acts like a high performance-political-religous-commercial cult. They keep their mind trapped-thinking and speaking in cliches and running them down with their messages so they keep spending their money on their crap believing they are all knowing. They have convinced followers to put themselves in a position of submission, by putting Orrin and their mentor in a positions of authority over them.
    I have NEVER met anyone who left the group that wasn’t estatic they did. Every person who left is so happy to have their lives back and their fredom to think and make their own choices, freedom to talk to whomever they want etc. They also find they have a lot more money in their pockets!
    Mark- have you read Hassan’s two books?

  42. RAQUEL PETERS permalink
    October 4, 2012 3:43 am

    “Quitting is not an option” another cliche they teach. I am so sorry for what you must be going through. Can you tell us the personality changes you see in family members that are involved in Team/Life?

  43. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    October 4, 2012 3:46 am

    @Mark: you know, if that man you spoke of would have had a lot of money, I suppose in the broader scheme of life, spending 3 grand to “improve yourself” isn’t so bad…..but if he didn’t have the money and already felt like he was on the road to financial perdition, and the LIFE/Team instilled ‘hook to never quit’ had robbed his soul, well herein lies the exact problematic base etiology of LIFE/Team: the structure and operation of this business in selling bogus dreams to be all you can be if only you listen to your upline, and new Christo-socio-political-historical-financial-family philosophies to live by, no matter how marginal or skewed.

    Orrin Woodward etal have absolutely no problem with taking in “the needy, the hungry, the poor” and milking them like starving Holsteins. I’m surprised Woodward doesn’t rent Ellis Island for the next gala–he could bring his yacht up from Florida . Not unlike what happened to immigrants of the late 19th and early 20th century who came looking for a new, good life, Woodward has the biz set up to do the mental version of looking for “disease”– early on interviewing to uncover their vulnerability and gullibility with his “Mental Fitness Challenge” $269 test–he just hasn’t checked them for lice at the front desk before they move on the the New World ghettos. THIS is the part that, quite frankly, TPO’s me to the max, i.e., they know exactly what type of desperation-dreams to take advantage of and where any new member coming in is lacking in the 8Fs is exactly what they go after.

  44. RAQUEL PETERS permalink
    October 4, 2012 3:49 am

    Maybe you could sit with him and show him his losses on his taxes. Or ask him to keep a tiny notebook in his pocket and record every time he spends money on team tools, events, gas, food etc. Point out he could’ve already went on a trip with the money he spent on Team! Just some ideas.
    Always stay on his side and just ask questions to help him think. Don’t attack or you will drive them deeper into the group.Unfortunately I have made that mistake many times. These people have been indoctrinated to believe anyone that doesn’t support the group OS ignorant or worse, the enemy.

  45. RAQUEL PETERS permalink
    October 4, 2012 3:55 am


  46. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    October 4, 2012 4:00 am

    LOL, Raquel! I see we’re both up early with the same mind-set today! (in your first larger post to Mark) 🙂

  47. Mark permalink
    October 4, 2012 5:56 am

    @Raquel: I haven’t read his books. I bought the one on amazon and loaned it to my brother in law right away. He wanted to keep it so I said no problem. I might buy another copy in the future to look over. @ageofwisdom51: They don’t have a lot of money. He is the pastor at a local church. I think total they have roughly 60,000. Keep in mind this is their retirement. They live in the parsonage, not their own house. My mother in law has said they gotta get this business going for their retirement. She said it’s a “win-win”. She also said these quarterlies that charge over a hundred dollars per ticket, really should charge like a thousand dollars. (something her upline told her). And she said my job is a pyramid scheme (i’m a state corrections officer). It is what it is I suppose.

  48. Raquel Peters permalink
    October 4, 2012 7:10 am

    Mark- I AM APPALLED! He is a pastor hey, you should have him call Pastor Dickie to find out why he left. Do your in laws know who he is? He was the Team pastor and on Team cds for many many years and now has nothing to do with Orrin Woodward or the Team. He was Orrin’s mentor for over a decade I believe.

    By the way, I would not recommend giving anyone in the group Steve Hassan’s books. They will blow it off as they are so indoctrinated with the groups doctrine. You could use those books to help yourself help them. I would just ask for it back, I bet he didn’t read it anyway.

    Two books I would recommend for a pastor/any believer/ and any outsider to the group are called All that Glitters is not God, and Consumed by Success, by Athena Dean. She gives a Christian perspective on building a mlm. She was very successful at it and walked away because it became clear what she was doing was not Biblical and that the messages she got were twisted scripture.

    Another good read for you, is Rick Ross’s site. He is an expert on religious cults.

    In my opinion and experience, Team and/or it’s leaders are using heresy to get good people/and Christians to believe what they are doing is right, all the while teaching them to manipulate people, relationships, use deceptive tactics etc and to chase money and idolize people and material things…….. Team/LIFE leaders only use the scripture that backs up their beliefs on money, success etc while leaving out the rest….. I am a bit surprised your father-in-law, a pastor cannot see that, but that’s how it is with deception.

  49. Raquel Peters permalink
    October 4, 2012 7:19 am

    The job is a pyramid scheme thing is a cliche they are taught. It is a thought stopping technique. So they can’t listen to outsiders that have a lowly J.O.B. Funny thing is they are building a pyramid and they cannot even see it! I used to believe that crap too, until i realized my husband was working a job to give all his money to the Team pyramid! You can never make more than Orrin, because whatever you add to their business always makes his business bigger than yours! He is also a competitor of yours and controls your whole business. Of course that’s the truth they didn’t want followers to know. They always said you can make more that Orrin but not your boss.. Bullcrap!….you can start a business, one you actually own and make more than your boss….and you can get it big enough, and put a system in place so you eventually don’t have to go their everyday……and you control it ……not some criminal/con man PC (in my opinion). No one can steal it like your upline and/or downline can in Team/LIFE. Sorry the lies I believed so long infuriate me to this day!

    Maybe I should start doing seminars on why Team LIFE is a LIE and you can all bring your brainwashed friends, so I can help set them free…………….. I wish I could….. except I am not qualified. 😦

  50. Raquel Peters permalink
    October 4, 2012 7:20 am

    Mark if you want to go ahead and friend me on FB and remind me who you are.

  51. Raquel Peters permalink
    October 4, 2012 7:25 am


    Potentially unsafe groups or leaders “come off very nice at first, they go for vulnerable people who are looking for answers, lonely, what you’d call ‘normal people.’ They’re very good at what they do and can get people to believe anything. You might think you’d never get taken in, but don’t bet on it. ”
    — Margaret Singer, Ph.D. Cult Expert

    By Rick Ross, Expert Consultant and Intervention Specialist

    “Ten warning signs of a potentially unsafe group/leader.

    Absolute authoritarianism without meaningful accountability.

    No tolerance for questions or critical inquiry.

    No meaningful financial disclosure regarding budget, expenses such as an independently audited financial statement.

    Unreasonable fear about the outside world, such as impending catastrophe, evil conspiracies and persecutions.

    There is no legitimate reason to leave, former followers are always wrong in leaving, negative or even evil.

    Former members often relate the same stories of abuse and reflect a similar pattern of grievances.

    There are records, books, news articles, or television programs that document the abuses of the group/leader.

    Followers feel they can never be “good enough”.

    The group/leader is always right.

    The group/leader is the exclusive means of knowing “truth” or receiving validation, no other process of discovery is really acceptable or credible.

    Ten warning signs regarding people involved in/with a potentially unsafe group/leader.

    Extreme obsessiveness regarding the group/leader resulting in the exclusion of almost every practical consideration.

    Individual identity, the group, the leader and/or God as distinct and separate categories of existence become increasingly blurred. Instead, in the follower’s mind these identities become substantially and increasingly fused–as that person’s involvement with the group/leader continues and deepens.

    Whenever the group/leader is criticized or questioned it is characterized as “persecution”.

    Uncharacteristically stilted and seemingly programmed conversation and mannerisms, cloning of the group/leader in personal behavior.

    Dependency upon the group/leader for problem solving, solutions, and definitions without meaningful reflective thought. A seeming inability to think independently or analyze situations without group/leader involvement.

    Hyperactivity centered on the group/leader agenda, which seems to supercede any personal goals or individual interests.

    A dramatic loss of spontaneity and sense of humor.

    Increasing isolation from family and old friends unless they demonstrate an interest in the group/leader.

    Anything the group/leader does can be justified no matter how harsh or harmful.

    Former followers are at best-considered negative or worse evil and under bad influences. They can not be trusted and personal contact is avoided.

    Ten signs of a safe group/leader.

    A safe group/leader will answer your questions without becoming judgmental and punitive.

    A safe group/leader will disclose information such as finances and often offer an independently audited financial statement regarding budget and expenses. Safe groups and leaders will tell you more than you want to know.

    A safe group/leader is often democratic, sharing decision making and encouraging accountability and oversight.

    A safe group/leader may have disgruntled former followers, but will not vilify, excommunicate and forbid others from associating with them.

    A safe group/leader will not have a paper trail of overwhelmingly negative records, books, articles and statements about them.

    A safe group/leader will encourage family communication, community interaction and existing friendships and not feel threatened.

    A safe group/leader will recognize reasonable boundaries and limitations when dealing with others.

    A safe group/leader will encourage critical thinking, individual autonomy and feelings of self-esteem.

    A safe group/leader will admit failings and mistakes and accept constructive criticism and advice.

    A safe group/leader will not be the only source of knowledge and learning excluding everyone else, but value dialogue and the free exchange of ideas.

    Don’t be naïve, develop a good BS Detector.

    You can protect yourself from unsafe groups and leaders by developing a good BS detector. Check things out, know the facts and examine the evidence. A safe group will be patient with your decision making process. If a group or leader grows angry and anxious just because you want to make an informed and careful decision before joining; beware. ”

    Copied off of Rick Ross’ site under Warning Signs at

  52. Raquel Peters permalink
    October 4, 2012 7:37 am

    Amthrax- I think the above post would make a good article. Maybe we can get permission from Rick Ross? Just a thought. There are families out there that have no idea where their loved one went….let’s help them.

  53. Former Round Table permalink
    October 4, 2012 10:16 am

    Wow Raquel, those warning signs from Rick Ross are dead on!! So scary to know that there are thousands of people sucked in and can’t even see it. We were right in there ourselves for so long!

    I do thank God daily that the veil was somehow lifted from our eyes and we are now free. Like you said earlier, everyone who leaves is happier, healthier, and has more money!! I will take my J.O.B. anyday over the BS that is Orrin Woodward, Team and Life.

  54. AlmostIn permalink
    October 4, 2012 1:29 pm

    What gets me is that the person I know who has gotten sucked into team/LIFE is an intelligent, non-follower type of person and works hard for the life they have and to now believe that Woodward & Co are legitimate business people. I, on the other hand, have struggled in areas of my life that a business opportunity like team/ LIFE would have been the answer to my struggles. That would be because my radar for snake oil salesman was up with the way that team/LIFE presented me the wonderful solutions to my struggles–not getting answers to any questions unless I come to a meeting–that’s when I knew something was not right.
    Why then do others not see Woodward & Co for the destructive people that they are–because they haven’t been exposed to Wolves in Sheeps Clothing until it is too late and the destruction has been done. The problem is that they have legitimately covered up the fact that they are a pyramid scheme and until someone finds the loophole they are getting away with turning people into followers of a commercial cult.

  55. Vogel permalink
    October 4, 2012 1:53 pm

    Great comments lately. Glad to see the new faces here too. Everything you’ve said is spot on, and plain as day to those of us who know the nuts and bolts of scams like TEAM.

    The big picture is that TEAM is just one of many identical cookie-cutter scams, most of which are based in Utah (MLM Mecca). They are wreaking devastation on desperate Americans. They are a powerful political lobby too — the money that the CEOs make goes into funding lobby groups and political candidates who will pay them back by ensuring that the scams go unregulated.

    At some point, it sure would be nice if all the victims connected to form a powerful bloc that could counter the scammers. Otherwise, you will always be shouted down by these nabobs, the scams will continue, and nothing will ever change. Playing this game of whack-a-mole has to stop; the beast’s head needs to be cut off once and for all.

  56. October 4, 2012 2:39 pm

    What a joyful day that will be!

    In the meantime I have longed so much for these days lately when these wronged erstwhile leaders are now speaking on here directly since I read about you all from Amthrax’s diligent writings and others who know you. No one MLM mountebank has had any courage to repudiate the truth in your facts so far that you are now sharing online, I guess lest they unwittingly confirm what you say? Some fools! Anyway keep it up, no doubt this is helping a lot of current Teammunists confront their docile “reality!” hopefully jarring their brains into their quondam intelligence.

  57. October 4, 2012 3:08 pm

    I prefer to post an excerpt of other people’s content instead of copying and pasting everything verbatim (except in certain circumstances).

  58. October 4, 2012 3:27 pm

    Yes, the “Reader Report: Letter From Former Round Table Members Mark and Raquel Peters” of January 29, 2012 is how I came to learn about Mark and Raquel Peters. Great post, great job Amthrax, great discussion thereafter.

  59. Natalie permalink
    October 5, 2012 9:27 am

    @AlmostIn – You said: “The problem is that they have legitimately covered up the fact that they are a pyramid scheme and until someone finds the loophole they are getting away with turning people into followers of a commercial cult.”

    You are so right. The problem in Canadian Business/Competition Law at least (not too sure about the US) is that when it comes to pyramid schemes like Team/LIFE there isn’t a clear definition of constitutes a ‘retail’ client on the books. If you look at the LIFE policy analysis on this site, you’ll see (or may have already seen) that every member of LIFE is just that…a member. Like a book club…which is really what LIFE is…a very expensive book/CD club.

    This is the loophole that Orrin et. al. can exploit in order to proliferate an unsustainable and unfair ‘business model’, i.e. pyramid scheme, that benefits 0.01% of the total membership in Team/LIFE. Every non-PC member of Team/LIFE is considered a retail client in the eyes of the law. The members are not business owners. Woodward and the PC are the business owners reaping all the benefits and kicking a few crumbs to the minions along the way but, just enough to keep the dream alive.

    Next time the person you know who’s in this mess speaks to the freedom of being a business owner, ask them “Are you free to operate your business how you want to? Or do you have to follow what you’re upline says” or “Do you own shares in LIFE L.L.L.C.?”

  60. Mark permalink
    October 5, 2012 9:57 am

    I wanted to tell you all about Christmas with my in-laws last year. Grab some popcorn and kick your feet up, because this will be entertaining. Most of them got each other books from team. As Christmas gifts!!! I heard reactions like ooh I haven’t read this one yet. My one brother in law, who I have been referring to in previous posts, actually sat down on the floor and started reading this f$%$ing book right there on the spot, while other people were still opening presents! It was like starving a dog for a few days, then throwing him a treat. It made me sick. And his wife made him a homemade team cup with his favorite quote on it. I literally almost burst out in uncontrollable laughter. And he has his son, my nephew, read team books now. He’s 8! My other brother in law, let’s call him “ben” introduced my in laws, his brothers and parents, to the team system. Ben and his wife are missionaries, and have been for 5 years. They have never been overseas or done anything except “raise support”. They were actually using other people’s money to pay for team. They didn’t make enough themselves to pay for it. We were supporting them with $100 per month until I found out about it. I asked him if they had 2 separate accounts. (One from what they made, and one from support.) He said no, just one account. So their supporters weren’t paying for missionary work, they were paying for overpriced books and cds. Needless to say I put an end to giving them money immediately after. They since have quit that mission and are now in limbo. And the dance continues…

  61. Natalie permalink
    October 5, 2012 11:15 am

    I just couldn’t resist commenting about Orrin’s ridiculous blog post about Intelligent Design. It is so writhe with misinformation and malfeasance it’s truly sad that his unquestioning minions eat it up like he’s some superior being.

    First off, he spends the first 3 paragraphs talking about himself and his engineering background, an arrogant technique to distance the writer from the audience as if the writer, Orrin in this instance, is somehow superior. Also, he knows full well that people really don’t give a shit about evolution, DNA, science in their everyday lives (unless they work in these fields) so it’s a weighty topic that’s easy to manipulate and people for the most part are either lazy, or don’t care to fact check.

    But alas, thanks to public schooling and university classes some of the more obvious dubious claims are easily called out.

    Here are some things that stuck out and selfishly, I hope some Teamsters read this and at the very least begin to question what information they’re being force-fed:

    Orrin writes: “At any rate, the information code and irreducible complexity, even after decades of time, are still unexplained phenomena within the evolutionary paradigm.”

    So how did Scientists sequence the human genome in 2000 if it’s still unexplained phenomena?

    “Increasingly, the scientific community is waking up to the fact that Darwinism has huge problems and is without viable hypothesis to account for information and programming. Without answers, these massive fissures will eventually lead to modern evolutionary theory, as we know it, collapsing on its own unsupported foundations.”

    Wrong again. No where in his post did he mention natural selection, competition of species, and adaptation…key pieces of Darwin’s theory of evolution. Darwinism has actually lead to new fields of science such as memetics instead of heading towards “collapsing on its own unsupported foundations”. These mechanisms of Darwinist theory are never mentioned by Orrin which means he is purposefully misleading his audience by neglecting key information that would clearly contradict his ridiculous conclusions.

    “Science, however, by its very definition, is no longer science when it accepts dogma over data.”

    So Orrin, are you saying science is a religion? Why is he convoluting two entirely separate things…to confuse perhaps?

    “Consequently, what we are watching unfold in the intelligent design/evolution controversy, is less about science and more about philosophical world-views.”

    Sigh. Orrin, I thought you were an engineer who had a superior understanding of science, Man! Science is not a ‘philosophical world-view’. Science is a tool to use to understand our nature and environment better as a species on this planet. Science is the falsification of hypotheses. Science is not gathering data just to support a hypothesis…kind of like how Orrin wrote his whole post and how he probably writes all of his speeches; picking and choosing data that supports a hypothesis is manipulative. Go to any function, Tues. night meeting…it’s all rehearsed little stories and ‘facts’ (their own version of facts) but all in a context that supports the Teamsters end goals of manipulating the audience to believe what they’re are saying unquestioned. Funny how that works…

    “Science, in order to be science, must allow the data to speak for itself, but the data overwhelmingly points to design/programming”

    And here lies Orrin’s non sequiteur misleading conclusion. Again, science is the falsification of hypotheses, not the accumulation and choosing of data to support a hypothesis.

    Look. I don’t care what you “believe” about evolution…what is clear in this post, is Orrin is a narcissistic, master-manipulator who will lie through his teeth in order to get what he wants out of people. Just critically look not just at the content of what he writes, but how he writes, how he jumps to conclusions, how purposefully confusing, arrogant, and convoluted his semantics are. The underlying truth about this guy, and any other ‘leader’ in this shame, lies in how he/they communicates.

    Raquel nailed it above. Girl, you totally exposed them! Thank you! 🙂

  62. Melanie Morgan permalink
    October 5, 2012 11:24 am


    I love it, grab the popcorn and kick up your feet, haha!I have been through a lot of sheet being on the Team, but THANK GOD I had no immediate family in haha! So no stories like yours for sure, lmao!

    I am utterly appalled at how they act though and your description is a great one, “like a starving dog”, they where that as a badge of honor because they are pounded with “You have to be a ‘hungry’ “student” ( blind follower or more a slave) and can only imagine what it must be like to sit there and watch the “drama” they create unfold!

    Please keep sharing for those who even remotely believe that their “teachings” and what the Team LIEfers do are anything like they promote or claim, they fool people to believe.

    From my experience and obviously a whole lot more, Their “culture” is far from honest, eithical, nor do they have integrity or display in their buisnesses real Christian principles; if people can read this site and still “believe”…they ought to give their head a shake!

    Speaking of “Believe”, it is a mockumentory comedy film about the world of MLM (multilevel marketing) haha, have you seen the movie?

    I laughed so hard I cried, and in parts had the shock factor going on because it is so real, it is histerical, embarrassing, and humiliating all at the same time! If you haven’t already, grab that movie and watch it and don’t forget the popcorn, haha! 🙂

  63. Melanie Morgan permalink
    October 5, 2012 11:31 am


    Excellent post! Thanks for sharing that! 🙂

  64. Melanie Morgan permalink
    October 5, 2012 2:36 pm

    Here is some “facing the facts”.. just a quick view of some of our numbers and pay while on the Team. Now I know many try and say we didn’t do the “work” but remember Team is “pay for performance.”

    Anyone who would want to contact me can do so through private messaging through Facebook, I would love to hear from you.:) If you see that you were paid more or less with bigger or smaller numbers, send me a message. 🙂

    First when I say “system counts” with a number it means how many in each leg getting CD’s WEEKlY, does NOT mean how many CD’s actually sold on a weekly basis (that number would be a lot larger) nor does it specify how many books, because they don’t show that, although I could look it up another way, this is extremely important when you would be adding up how much REVENUE $$ our group brought in on a weekly basis. “Leaders” got at least 3 CD’s per week, plus 1 ERM series (per month and was religious probably comparable to the LIEF EDGE) AND books (ususally 1-2 per person or family on CD of the week). But you will get the idea, especially those who had groups and remember this.

    System Counts-CD of Wk

    November – 2006

    LEG 1= 773 CD LEG 2= 252 LEG 3= 37 LEG 4= 8

    Total CD’s = 1170 x $6 ( I believe that was the cost @ the time) and that would be $7020 x 4 (wks) = $28,080

    SEMINAR TICKETS on Standing Order:

    LEG 1 = 1195 LEG 2 = 252 LEG 3 = 50 LEG 4 = 7 LEG 5 = 1

    TOTAL Tickets = 1505 x $25 (per ticket) =$ 37,725 REVENUE for 1 month for Team

    So it looks like the TEAM made $66,805 for 1 month and we got paid & $8,257 (off tools & ticket) plus $2900 (for speaking)+ $11,157.80 before taxes.

    Year End paid from Team before taxes:

    2006= $100,214.34
    2007= 99,544.79 left Quixtar
    2008= 14,091.78
    2009= 5,741 the year they stole our income

    I will be back to give more info. on how many system counts for other years.

  65. switch permalink
    October 5, 2012 2:40 pm

    It’s like….. Christmas all over again. 🙂

  66. October 5, 2012 3:30 pm

    Hey Melanie Morgan

    Now that you mention “Believe” I remember watching a preview sometime last year on YouTube but I never found the movie online and forgot all about it. Do you know if it’s available to view online and where? If not I will just pick up a copy from Amazon with pleasure, I don’t mind to provide to it’s producers than to MLM pecuniary rapist! (Eat your hearts out charlatans!)

  67. Raquel Peters permalink
    October 5, 2012 3:45 pm

    That movie showed me what an idiot I looked like to the outside world! It may be hard to watch for some, but it is funny too in that the guru goes to jail in the end…..May be art defining life…. someday….lol!

  68. October 5, 2012 3:48 pm

    The charlatans must be having a hissy fit with a tail on it, thanx to Melanie and the magic of the web. Truth is the pleasure of doing good is the only one that will not wear out-a chinese proverb. Keep bringin’ it.

  69. Raquel Peters permalink
    October 5, 2012 3:49 pm

    Funny it seems that John and Melanie made less than us in 2008 and we are in their downline and they had more teams and bigger numbers than we did I believe! How can that be? I will get in touch and we can compare numbers…..How does one go from 99,000 to 14,000 when their teams are still buying the tools? Also the Hawkins in one month for sure made more than the Morgan’s and ourselves..when they had smaller teams. I called them and Lisa told me their pay was thousands more than ours!

  70. October 5, 2012 3:51 pm

    ‘scuse me, And to Raquel, and others.

  71. October 5, 2012 4:00 pm

    “How does one go from 99,000 to 14,000 when their teams are still buying the tools”

    Only in pernicious, pretend MLM “industry” of course! Where the truth be stretched to fit the egomaniacal “leader’s” whimsical imaginations to dole out puerile favors. Keep your truth acomin’.

  72. Raquel Peters permalink
    October 5, 2012 4:00 pm

    Our team pay went from $34,758 in 2006 to $86,000 in 2007 to only $18,000 in 2008 to $4000 in 2009 when they took our team and income (photos of 1099’s on our FB page). We never saw a formula on how we were paid by Team, we were just supposed to trust Orrin.

  73. Raquel Peters permalink
    October 5, 2012 5:40 pm

    I also heard the year of the lawsuit late 2007/2008 Orrin was paying himself $500,000 a month while it seems he was starving some of his leaders and paying his favorites……IF this is true…..he is really a sick person! When we dropped down to a few thousand a month or less we had already retired from our J.O.B.S. and given up our business, and we had zero income from Quixtar or MV because he got us to follow him. I will search out my pay for Aug 2007 to April 2008 and tell you what it was. My downline most likely wondered why my husband had to go and get a job again while our downline leaders didn’t…..It wasn’t because our teams went away……

  74. Melanie Morgan permalink
    October 5, 2012 7:26 pm

    Sorry guys, my computer is NOT behaving AGAIN, I will try and put the data in a spread sheet bare with me ( details are NOT my thing 🙂 so I don’t waste time & space confusing everyone and maybe Amthrax can then post it. I cannot copy and paste again, so I had to do it this way. I will put together more “data” for ya to get more of an idea. I had the CD’s wrong also, even after I explained it haha!
    Might have to call in all the Melancholy pals for such a task! 🙂

    The total of 1170 is NOT the total number of CD’s it is the total number of PEOPLE on cd of the week, so it is Waaayyy MO Money for the TEAM! It is at least 3 cd’s maybe(4) per wk per person (4 for “leaders) so then the $$/Revenue for TEAM would not be 28 grand it would be more like : 1170 (peeps) x 3 (Cd’s minimum)= 3510 (cd/ wk) x 4 (weeks)= 14,040 (CD’s for this month)x $6 bucks (per cd) the REVENUE for the month would then = **$84,240** + $37,725 ( 1505 peeps on Standing Order Seminar Ticket); not including any “door tickets”)

    Someone please check my math! haha

    So it is a grand total of tickets & cd’s (no books) = a whoppin ***$121,965*** and that isn’t even all of it for the TEAM that month!It would probably be fair to say and you could add in at least another $84,000 grand for the books because the books were way more than $6 bucks a piece and most people were on CD & Book, but may have not been all?!!! If I dug deep enough I could probably find out what book and how much it cost that month too!

    So, well over 200,000 grand and we got paid $8,257 (for those Cd & Tickets) + the “speaking fee” of $2900 which came to $11,157.80 (before taxes for the month of NOV.2006)

    Remember this… does NOT include any “tools bought @ seminar, boards & easels, team clothing etc. sold for the whole group”, it also doesn’t include any XTRA tools bought outside of seminar or standing order!I don’t remember if we were ordering direct through a shopping cart at this time or if we were still running the tools through our group and ordering? Raquel do you remember?

  75. Melanie Morgan permalink
    October 5, 2012 7:39 pm


    A hissy fit with a tail on it, lmao! I don’t know right off hand, I wonder if you can find it on Nexflix or somewhere like that? Hopefully, someone else knows. 🙂

  76. Melanie Morgan permalink
    October 5, 2012 7:44 pm


    Agreed, hopefully I can get this in a spreadsheet and will do the same it will show how they began to do the “starving” us and Orrin apparently keeping it for himself!

  77. No Team For Me permalink
    October 5, 2012 7:57 pm

    I think your total revenue you contributed to teamscam was even much higher when you factor in all the extra CD’s people were buying to have all the extra follow-up CD’s to give out and all the extra First Night Packs, Additional Info Packs, LLR Packs, Relationship Packs, Power Player Packs, Culture Packs, Depth Packs, etc.

    And I never saw any way to verify what the volume per distributor was for teamscam tools the way we were able to with Quixtar products. We should have been able to see a total revenue figure with a breakdown by each personal leg of our business along with a list of everyone who purchased tools and how much they purchased so we could verify the totals.

  78. Melanie Morgan permalink
    October 5, 2012 8:02 pm


    It looks like you can watch it on Netflix, not sure if you subscribe or not, maybe someone else knows of another besides buying it. Although it is worth watching more than once, LOL! 🙂

  79. Melanie Morgan permalink
    October 5, 2012 8:19 pm

    No Team For Me~

    I agree and isn’t it interesting that they touted “transparency?” Funny I just found one, ONLY (1) statement where it shows:

    November 2005

    Tool Bonus Sales Sales Event Bonus Speaking Total

    $1841.56 12,303 13,115.26 2762.63 1700.00 6304.21

    Does NOT show what both columns of “SALES” equaling (25,418.26) is for or what was “sold”. Must have been an ‘oops’ because I don’t find any other statement that says “Sales” and gives a dollar amount. But that is the way Orrin obviously wanted it so NO ONE could figure out how or what we were paid on!

    Certainly not transparent.

  80. Melanie Morgan permalink
    October 5, 2012 8:38 pm

    No Team For Me~

    The books figure may not be that high, I took the total months cd’s but I think you are right it still would be more from all the other junk, but they made it so no one could figure it out how and what we were really paid on! And when I get more data on numbers of different years it will show how their idiotic decisions effectively started to destroy our teams until they finally for whatever (unknown to us outside of a different rumors) why they just quit paying us and stole our business.

  81. Melanie Morgan permalink
    October 5, 2012 8:47 pm


    If you go to the New Facebook group page from Amthrax article on here, you can see Raquel’s 1099’s too. 🙂

  82. Finally permalink
    October 6, 2012 3:30 am

    Yikes!!! Like Orrin has always said…..numbers don’t lie, but people do……..and since “O” is a people………well you decide……….
    Yes Raquel I also heard that Orrin was taking 500 to 600K per month as his pay while he cut all the other profit sharers and claimed it was due to the lawsuit………and again I didn’t see all the profit sharers names on the lawsuit so how in the world could it cost them their profits???

    I also heard that is being touted as a whistle blower ?????? seriously………Orrin and Chris 2 of the self and team proclaimed smartest people on the planet were fooled by the prices of products for YEARS….. And them blew the whistle on it?????? Orrin was at go diamond in Atlanta and got a call from a team office employee telling him that Q had called and that Orrins tool business as he knew it was over. That meant Orrin would lose 6-8 MILLION or more in annual income…………the only thing he blew was his shorts out when he heard that…….and so the lawsuit was started………there was no righteousness on his part….at least that is how I heard it and would have to agree with it looking back on all the stories posted around the web and on personal accounts i have heard..

  83. Raquel Peters permalink
    October 6, 2012 11:13 am

    Finally I was at the Fun in the Sun trip a day after that Go Diamond Weekend and I know things were not going well with Q. You could tell there was agitation in the air, to say the least. Funny Orrin called A/Q a pyramid while running his own pyramid tool company, pulling in many more millions off the downline all the while knowing A/Q had over priced products for years! He also didn’t even focus on getting customers and down the line it was taught to hit the customer button when placing personal orders! He didn’t even mention the word Quixtar when showing the plan! That was supposed to be the business legally! We had no idea why we needed customers because we were supposed to be recruiting people according to the mighty duplicatable system of stacking that we were taught by Orrin and company. That is what we were taught. To recuit and promote Team and to buy from ourselves…….. That if we built a big enough community, product companies would come to us. Q/A was a supplier we buy from. OMG. Then Orrin has us write letters to our state AG that A/Q is a pyramid scheme and we cannot get customers when he rarely /if for a second cared about customers. The only thing I remember them teaching us about customers was the great SAM machine that cost me hundreds of dollars. I never got an order from a customer at beauty breaks, only more orders from Team mates. Orrin was all about Team and recruiting and selling his tools! The hypocrisy and their ability to only recall part of a story is astounding!

    ……I would call us whistle blowers……not Orrin.

  84. Raquel Peters permalink
    October 6, 2012 11:18 am

    Funny after that A/Q did reign in the tool companies. I do believe they were just as much to blame, but Orrin was no where near blameless. He taught us stacking/depth/team approach and the company looked the other way while he did it for years, all the while making their millions…..both of them are full of it in my opinion. Orrin is no hero to me……he stole years of my life, my kids lives, my retirement , my career and business etc keeping me involved in something he admitted he knew was a scam for years………….all the raking in millions!

  85. No Team For Me permalink
    October 6, 2012 11:25 am

    Orrin, a whistleblower? What a liar! Sounds to me like what really happened is that he got caught lying to Quixtar and refused to follow their rules so they took his tool business rights away. Then he tried to outfox them by getting all of Dexter’s Diamonds to support him. He probably lied to all Dexter’s Diamonds which is probably why the majority of the Yager Diamonds left Orrin during the trial. They probably realized they had been lied to and wanted nothing to do with such a pathetic liar.

    My personal opinion.

  86. Raquel Peters permalink
    October 6, 2012 12:25 pm

    All while raking in millions! Is what it should’ve said. 🙂
    NoTeamForMe- that is what I suspect as well. I remember in the GoDiamond they posted what people were making on tools, I am sure to entice those not from Team originally to stay with Team. Remember that one? Tim Marks was ticked when people took pictures of the overhead!
    That was spring of 07.

  87. Raquel Peters permalink
    October 6, 2012 2:05 pm

    NoTeamForMe- Do you know about the notarized letters we were coached to send by our upline to our state AG, or that Dan Hawkins met with the Wi AG.? He was asked to by a big leader in Mi. I think they even came over and coached him on what to say… know Q is a pyramid etc. I remember that he said the guy said well then how can you be retired from your job is you left Q? He thought that was funny…. OMG I cannot believe I was so dumb to have participated in that crap! I think all our leaders went out and got signed notarized statements too. Now I wonder if that is illegal in some way. I hope not. But it makes me wonder since it was supposedly a secret. I’m going to post that letter too I think. I did a lot of things now that I am not so proud of just because I was a yes man and did whatever they told me to. yuck…..makes me sick how they used us like pawns.

  88. Finally permalink
    October 6, 2012 2:51 pm

    Yea Tim definitely did not want that info on the screen……….he has the highest month on that screen I was told…..263,000 or near that amount…….obviously Orrin’s pay wasn’t in those numbers……….I mean what better promotion than hard numbers??? OHHHHHHHH what tangled webs they wove………….

    I agree that you guys are whistle blowers…………..I bet they never thought anyone would actually post their numbers…….wait till the current profit sharers that aren’t making squat read just what the real numbers will be for them……….OHHHH MYYYYY

  89. Raquel Peters permalink
    October 6, 2012 6:04 pm

    As soon as I can get it in a spreadsheet i will send it to Amthrax. We also posted photos of our 1099s for 2006,2007,2008,2009 just for fun. 🙂 Amthrax your welcome to post those too.

  90. Raquel Peters permalink
    October 6, 2012 6:07 pm

    Oh I wish we had a photo of that screen…..I bet someone does. 🙂

  91. CGC permalink
    October 6, 2012 6:55 pm

    Orrin wrote on his anti-evolution rant: “Science, however, by its very definition, is no longer science when it accepts dogma over data.”

    He had to have sensed the irony of that line, as it totally contradicts the way he does business!

  92. Mark permalink
    October 7, 2012 1:01 am

    Someone explain the book about dreambuilding to me. My father and mother in law went and looked at a 2.5 million dollar home on lake michigan. Is that some kind of joke?

  93. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    October 7, 2012 5:13 am

    @CGC: don’tcha love reading Orrin’s stuff? I feel as though I’ve walked through the Greco-Roman period, all the way up through the evils of Progressivism, right down into the bowels of decayed modern culture with him….he spans the globe and sands of time–LOL!! As for science losing legitimacy buy buying someone’s dogma: heck, Woodward is a master of “dogma wrappers”, too….he’s taken peoples everyday Christianity and managed to use it as a cloak for his fascist empire (no joking–his organization fits into concepts of fascism like a Cinderella slipper onto it’s owner’s feet).

  94. Freedomhaha permalink
    October 7, 2012 7:41 am

    Mark- The idea is to hook people in by showing them their dreams. In its own right dream building is not a bad idea at all. However, when it is used to keep people in a cult it is a terrible thing. You are made to believe that things like this are right around the corner for you once you join TEAMcult. As a new person you are told to create a “dream board” with all of the luxurious things on it that you would never have been able to afford in your job. Please go out and chase your dreams, and in the process improve the world around us. DON’T do it in a cult though!!!

  95. Melanie Morgan permalink
    October 7, 2012 8:20 am


    I believe they use the “LIFE” book for this also, funny you can check it out on Amazon, the ‘new’ price is; $4.24 & ‘used’: $1.89 but they sell it for $23.95!. From what I understand it’s basically a scrap book of places the PC have gone enticement= “dream building” with “over a years worth of tweets” (that everyone has already read). I have not and will never even purshase this for the 1.98, just my personal decisiion, I gave them enough money to last a lifetime, they get no more from me.

    The reason for “dream building” is to get you to “believe” you can get all those things, but one major problem they have an unstainable broken business model that the odds of you ever getting that 1.5 million dollar home is slow slim, you might be better off taking your chance on the lottery.

    If they can get you to focus on “material things” and wanting that worse than your critical thinking, the reality of the comp plan and their policies & proceedures the real reality, then wha-bam, you are on your journey down the never ending yellow brick road. 🙂

  96. Melanie Morgan permalink
    October 7, 2012 8:23 am

    This may seem innocent but it is how they keep you “dreaming” and focused on the fantasy. What I found after over a decade in The ‘culture’; it breeds..greed.

  97. Melanie Morgan permalink
    October 7, 2012 8:27 am

    Oh one last thing, if you do check out the Amazon make sure you read the reviews hahahahaha, seems alot like reading Amthrax and the contrast of the defenders and those who lived the experience and know their agenda. If nothing else the reviews will give you a good laugh, and more importantly a window into what these “followers” do everywhere they go. One person has a differing opinion, and whao look out, it is like the “gang” moves right in…standard operating proceedure!

  98. Melanie Morgan permalink
    October 7, 2012 9:13 am


    That pretty much just sums it up. Love your posts! 🙂

  99. Melanie Morgan permalink
    October 7, 2012 11:45 am


    “OHHHH MYYYYY” ….hahahaha. Got love them numbers! It’s really too bad Orrin hides them and the profit-sharing, even from those who are qualified to get paid! I still cannot believe how stupid we were for trusting the untrustworthy!

  100. Melanie Morgan permalink
    October 7, 2012 11:50 am

    *** Lesson Learned*** Never put your trust in someone who keeps secrets, and money is the motivation for the secrets!

  101. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    October 7, 2012 11:58 am

    Hey, Melanie: (thanks and you ain’t a kiddin’ about reviews…. I spent one day on Amazon, reading reviews of The Jeffersonian Methods of teaching for home schooling (you know–the Oliver “dimploma” DeMille who Orrin is now hawking–one of his “marginal characters” to learn from–oh, and to publish to make more bucks off of–LOL!) ….I saw a glimmer of hope…every so often, there’s be a home-schooling mother who said: hey, wait a minute, there’s something wrong here. One mother took issue with: saying we shouldn’t bother teaching kids, gulp, until they are 7 yrs old, i.e., the so-called ‘age of reason.’ She was astounded a child might miss all of the learning possible in the most formative periods (does someone like Orrin subscribe to such claptrap, too? I almost find that hard to believe, but…) anyway, to say nothing of childhood’s most important bonding periods, including music, etc. Oh, yeah, there’s a lot to learn just perusing the commentaries on books over on Amazon prior to purchase or to touch the pulse of readership.

    (I had started by trying to get some good “meat” on the 1913 anti-progressivism book, but there wasn’t much yet. I have the feeling it’s rather going to be like Ayn Rand’s metaphysics and the “fight” in Atlas Shrugged…in simpler terms: far, far right winger vs far far left winger philosophies of self and society, capitalism and government, etc.). So thank you, too, for bringing up Amazon reviews.

    The $64k question: does Orrin Woodward actually subscribe to the totality of some of those he promotes? Or, is he picking and choosing which parts to support? I realize he’s against the Fed Reserve system, etc., but I’m wondering about the rest.

  102. freedomhaha permalink
    October 7, 2012 12:40 pm

    Ageofwisdom- In my experience he picks what serves his position best. Case in point: The different companies that have fronted his tools business. When that company wasn’t convenient for his scam/cult then he would ditch them and move on to the new flavor of the day.

  103. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    October 7, 2012 1:54 pm

    Freedom: you mean, he’s actually used outside companies and not his own publishing companies for books and CDs? I’d always assumed that interspersed with his myriad LLCs, there’d be others, but never could discern. Example: I wonder who makes some of the “hard” tools for him, like the display boards, etc., listed on the Team tools page (hey! order $600 worth and you get free shipping, too! 🙂 Obviously, they have outside vendors for the hats and t-shirts and stuff. But what did you experience? Got a funny story about Brady’s bobblehead, perchance? (Know what i don’t get? Their t-shirts and hats are pretty reasonably priced…but then they sock ya for the Mental Fitness Challenge Test–I suppose the MFCT is a big money maker for them now?)

  104. freedomhaha permalink
    October 7, 2012 3:56 pm

    Age- That is my mistake for not being clear. When I was taking about outside companies as a front for his tool business I was talking about Amway, Quixtar, MonaVie, and finally LIFE (for now).

  105. Mark permalink
    October 7, 2012 6:34 pm

    Wasn’t there a comparison chart somewhere on her with prices of books through team vs. Prices of the same books through amazon, or if they are available at the library. I think that’s an excellent visual aid for anyone contemplating team for “change”.

  106. Raquel Peters permalink
    October 8, 2012 4:00 am

    Wisdom- Can you explain the MFC challenge and test. Many people do not know about that.

  107. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    October 8, 2012 5:20 am

    Raquel: my experience with the $269 MFC test—or should I say: the PRELIMINARY MFC test that any of us can take for free, has lead me to these personal opinions:

    1) It is fashioned after the MMPI.

    2) It is geared to pick up where you are at in the Team’s 8 Fs (Family, Fun, Finances, Faith, Following, etc.)

    3) the preliminary is administered so fast online, that one does not really have a chance to think to long about a question. Like many of these tests, certain subjects are asked several different ways–it looks for consistency and constancy in personality traits, etc.

    4) it is inherently dangerous–you are now telling a sales business exactly where your “needs” are, i.e., they know exactly how to further reel you in, to supposedly sell you what you need.

    5) it is testing for things it hopes to find lacking in you, but this is not randomized–remember, they are trying to “get you” on the 8Fs. Remember also: it is geared toward what Orrin Woodward sees as acceptable in regard to: religion, business, family relationships, etc.—white upper class Christian America and those like us in Westernized societies.

    Let’s look at an example: I took the prelim. Keep in mind my age (60’s), retired from main profession and with a manufacturing hobby and just about to collect SS.

    Okay, so on this prelim, I come up slightly wanting in “Vision” (a pie chart division of one of the 8 Fs they showed me at the conclusion of this test). Now, is this valid? Should this make them want to hone in on me as the area of my life to improve upon?

    Why fo I ask this?

    1) Almost from the getgo, I realized what they were up to, simply because I had been taught about such tests and their construction in graduate school while studying advanced abnormal psychology in the pursuit of becoming a Clnical Nurse Specialist (CNS) (Note: I realize this experience and background is outside of the norm)—so anyway, my past life experience skewed my results to begin with–in short order, I realized it was about the 8Fs…so I purposely gave answers that I knew would support scores in all of them except for one area—I got almost perfect scores except for having “vision” which was the lowest (7.5 out of 10)

    NOTE: My scores do NOT mean I’m “smart” per se—it means I beat the system like a sociopath might beat a lie detector test 🙂

    2) My age: who in their 60’s is truly going to give a RIP about “vision to become all I can be”, especially in a sales-type, business? Not too many of us, I think—not saying there aren’t those interested, but certainly my vision should be different than a 22 yr old’s or a 32 yr old’s. For this portion of the test, as I was sent rapidly through it…when it came to visionary things, and to test my hypothesis of the non-validity of the test, I purposely chose answers that I knew would diminish this score. It did.

    My amatuer analysis: all an honest, possbily vulnerable person out there (who is looking for a path and answers in life) has to do is take the test and get sucked into this scheme….and voila!

    ****Any/all taking this test are actually GIVING the ammunition to the head scumbag (yes! scumbag!) and his minions to know exactly how/what/when/where to suck the poor bastards in….to get the unsuspecting folks to think they have the answers to the “promised land” of Team LIFE.****

    All I can manage to spit at this point is: surreptitious fascist hidden pyramid scheme, cloaked in a bolshevik “brotherhood” facade, spewing the lies of: Fire Up! Be All you Can Be! Avoid the Naysayers! Follow Us and God will make sure you live the material life you deserve because of our Leadership Revolution! Oh, and just like boleshevik states run amok, LIFE/Team does the same thing: if you FAIL, it’s YOUR fault! They’ve given you all the tools the community could possibly need! (There’s a lot to be learned from Russian history)


  108. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    October 8, 2012 5:28 am

    Gees, excuse the typos….I got really riled up typing this—-that misuse of a freakin’ test makes me very very angry…..

  109. October 8, 2012 5:59 am

    Ok, just to clarify, Woodward only used outside companies like Amway, Quixtar, and Monavie for now, TEAM has always been his, and LIFE is another one of his concoctions.

    Ageofwisdom…this is so freaky, almost sounds like those dianetics tests I sometimes get in the mail as advertisement for that scientolody or whateveritis church.

  110. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    October 8, 2012 6:27 am

    @Velizabeth: you know….their methods are really nothing new, but I’ve also just thought of something else—they are not just getting “the goods” on the weaknesses they desire, they are also then able to exploit one’s prior strengths.

    Let me leave a quote from the masterpiece fiction book ‘Atlas Shrugged’ by Ayn Rand, who grew up in Bolshevik Russia. It’s in reference to a once-rich industrialist that the “people’s state” was trying to rob patent rights from in reference to an extraordinary metal alloy he’d taken 10 yrs to devleop from his own ideas as a young ore-miner out of Minnesota [in this case, let’s pretend the industrialist is the individual who got into LIFE/Team but rebelled, and Orrin’s TEAM = the communal “people’s state”], So there’s another side to the “Mental Fitness Challenge Test”….what you could also “lose” to a group like this (done as the book quote):

    “If I [the industrialist/individual] had not known that my life depends on my mind and effort….if I had not made it my highest moral purpose to exercise the best of my effort and the fullest capacity of my mind in order to support and expand my life, you would have found nothing to LOOT from me, nothing to support your own existence: It is not my sins you are using to injure me, but my virtues—my virtues by your own acknowledgment, since your own LIFE depends on them, since you need them, since you do not seek to destroy my achievement but to SEIZE it” [use YOU to make the top few rich, based upon your skills, mindset, intellect, etc.

    On a separate note: In the truth of a bottom line, in Orrin’s current iteration of this business, there’s no longer a tangible, renewable product vs team development sides to be drawn (such as in the days when Amway claimed it didn’t exist and had to answer court charges that more money was being made from tools than advertised products). LIFE = the TEAM, for the team propaganda IS what they are now selling not just to themselves, i.e., their downlines, but to any fly caught in the internet subscription trap—it is the only pseudo-commodity left. One can only hope for the inevitable saturation point to be reached. Long live mathematics.

  111. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    October 8, 2012 6:50 am

    Does anyone else on here remember the IQ tests we kids took in the 1950’s and 1960’s? Years later, they realized what they were testing, and the answer was sad: average white middle-class American kids. Children of color from depressed areas could not answer the questions the same because of their total life experiences and history was so different–answers we thought “normal” could not be envisioned by them. We’d finally realized the failure of such tests in predicting Intelligence Quotient, based upon the type of questions asked.

    My prejudice is: I don’t like seeing the MMPI and bastardizations thereof used in business—it’s an automatic mark upon you…it compartmentalizes you. On the other hand, I think they can be useful in determining the level of functioning of certain groups requiring placement or help in certain PRIVATE areas. Have we any guarantees results might not be sold? What about privacy? Would YOU entrust the money-mongers running an MLM with your online results? I sure as hell wouldn’t!

  112. No Team For Me permalink
    October 8, 2012 7:37 am

    Does anyone know if there are states where these type of tests are illegal without a professional psychology degree? I still believe they are practicing psychology without a license and giving financial advice without a license. It’s my personal opinion that a few of the leaders should end up in jail for something like this, especially due to the carnage they are leaving behind.

  113. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    October 8, 2012 7:49 am

    No Team: I’m assuming that it’d be kind of like being a ‘hire and fire at will’ state….a business decides to administer this test to employees—either you submit, thereby giving consent, or you decide not to work for them. It’s costly and voluntary with LIFE/Team—however, they DO spew their propaganda in promoting you throw $269 away on it, AND there’s incentive to get the toadies to promote it: extra bonus money or however they are classifying it–I believe they keep it separate and you get a different percentage off of the “purchases”.

    Since MMPI-type tests are long-accepted, revised tools in education, healthcare, the government, etc., I can’t see how states would be able to outlaw them? I know that companies are getting sucked in pretty well on the idea of testing employees, too—don’t know what version/types, but it’s being promoted by motivational toolers quite a bit.

    Wikipedia has a nice basic explanation of all iterations of this test, it’s successors and what they’d originally been devised to test for:

  114. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    October 8, 2012 8:05 am

    CORRECTIONS TO No Team: that was a lousy answer on my part… answer more directly to what you asked, in my humble opinion: I think they likely are using some standardized, accepted test questions, using those that could fall into their 8Fs. Nothing illegal about it if it’s been developed and tested according to US laws. The evaluations are automated. So who’s responsible? Who’s to blame? Like any “good Lief’r”: the person taking the test voluntarily bears the “blame”…if the person who paid to take that test has forgotten or disregarded his/her own privacy, etc., and thinks that doing this test will further them down the promised road, who are we to complain they’ve not only probably not received any “value” for their money, but that they may be harmed in some way by the results? A big part of this “tool MLM” is the concept of what the buyer considers to be ‘value’, not unlike someone paying $200 to listen to a speaker for an hour. But I know what you’re driving at—only I don’t think they sat in their back offices, devising a devious test to foist off, put together by unqualified personnel—I think Orrin is too smart for that.

  115. October 8, 2012 10:42 am

    @Mark – Here is the post comparing the prices of TEAM/LIFE books at Amazon and the library:

    Do note that the original post was written in January 2011.

  116. Mark permalink
    October 8, 2012 7:52 pm

    ah yup that’s it. thanks!

  117. Raquel Peters permalink
    October 9, 2012 10:25 pm

    Commented on FB tonight under a thread and ex team leader wrote on politics. Some guys didnt like it. Just more guys refusing to face facts! Very interesting. When you confront them with facts they run away…. always! They can’t even come back with an argument except I know Orrin…
    I feel sorry for them. 😦 Almost all of these people aren’t even making a profit after years of spending their money and time….. 😦

  118. Raquel Peters permalink
    October 9, 2012 10:27 pm

    Of course they ripped on this site. One guy asked if I worked for Amway….LOL!
    They were so rude. Yawn….. I copied and pasted the conversation if you want it Amthrax.

  119. Raquel Peters permalink
    October 12, 2012 9:19 am

    It is so twisted how this business works. They tell you one thing they are and then behave the exact opposite and one cannot see their own hypocrisy. It is really disturbing but that is what brainwashing does to people in my experience. I said and believed I was helping people and couldn’t even see the number of people, the majority who quit and lost hundreds of bucks to thousands. I said i was honest yet following the system and what I was taught, I contacted people using deceptive practices (like they do today). I said and believed I was honest, yet like I was taught in the system, used what I learned about personalities to manipulate people with words, challenges, cds etc to get them into the business. I said I was honest yet when showing the plan I followed what I was taught by the system and never told people they were joining Quixtar/Amway, it was always Team. I said and believed I was honest yet sent Affidavits to my state AG, when solicited by my upline, stating I had been a part of an illegal pyramid scheme for years by clicking a customer button when ordering ( because I was told to). I said I wasn’t about the money yet all the goals I set would make me more money, and I never told anyone to quit because it was best for them to do so. I said I was about making a difference yet couldn’t see the negative difference I was making in the MAJORITY of distributors lives when they lost money and self esteem from being involved in the business. I said and believed I was humble yet had the Team arrogance and fake pride about me, less than others but it was still there. I said from stage and believed I was making a lot of money, yet after my expenses i was keeping less money than a decent job would pay me, most years. I said from stage I had my time back, yet in reality i was neglecting my family, even my own dog for years and I couldn’t even admit it to myself, working days,nights and weekends! I promised people they could get their time back with a residual, pipeline income, yet I couldn’t see the leaders above me at PC were STILL WORKING and not available to their families, some after @ 20 years……… It was really twisted thinking. But that is how cults indoctrinate people, they have to keep them confused so they cannot reflect or critically think about the situation. We also cannot hold two conflicting beliefs so we have to disregard or push one away to hold onto the other and that is exactly what I did until I woke up and boy……. was waking up a painful process

  120. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    October 12, 2012 9:38 am

    Raquel: this, by far, has been the most, depth-digging, glorious post ever posted on Amthrax in my several months on here. It’s a “confession of an insider” that all coming on here should read—like the preface to a book. Each point should be it’s own paragraph. It should be the “cover page” of the Amthrax site. It makes you larger than life in a good light and a decent person, even though I know you feel like a schmuck riddled with anxiety and guilt over the past. THIS, my dear, is the post I would be looking for if I came on Amthrax looking for answers on the human aspect of side of a “community business venture” gone awry. It proves your thinking humanity you’ve always had.

  121. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    October 12, 2012 5:57 pm


    I kid you not, on 9/27/12: Dan Hawkins re-Tweeted this disgusting quote from some MORON named: Randy Gage:

    “Poverty causes people to lie, cheat, steal and even kill. There is nothing spiritual about poverty.”
    THIS IS BEYOND MY LIMIT OF TOLERANCE!! This ain’t the Watts riots just because on eis poor!!

    It’s about people living in garbage dumps and tent cities of America and the back streets of Calcutta! As if poor people have no humanity!! I don’t have your supposed same God, Dan, but my fondest wish for you everafter is: “may your God damn you, no forgiveness for phony sorrow…and on the way to hell, I hope you are stone-cold broke…and that NO ONE will give you a scrap of bread.”

    You are an unintelligent MORON! No more easy-going philosophy out of me for the likes of you! Why don’t the morons over your head CURB your juvenile, unenlightend, grotesque ideas?

    You, Dan Hawkins, make me SICK and I’d love to dump every four-letter word on you that Amthrax would allow, and I’m sure your GOD would applaud if it got rid of evil, sniveling, money-grubbers like YOU. Signed, The Nurse

  122. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    October 12, 2012 6:02 pm

    In case you missed the above quoted post: Dan Hawkins had that stone-cold rotten re-tweeted post on his LEADERSHIP Tweet site!


    To anyone in LIFE/Team–Stealth: get out now while you have a freakin’ soul left!

  123. Melanie Morgan permalink
    October 13, 2012 12:00 am


    What a disgrace, there is no depth to what they will stoop to. Shame, Shame on them.

  124. Melanie Morgan permalink
    October 13, 2012 12:17 am

    It was irritating when the speakers, George, Orrin or anyone else tried “motivating” us with “materialism.” We were never motivated nor moved by any material things. They claim they are not about the money, they are about the “cause” and “leading others to the truth,” nor will they ever admit they are greedy or “materialistic.” But you will find yourself promoting material wealth even if that is not who you are, we did and that is not who we are or cared to be.

    The truth is the evidence is so abundantly clear, it shows up in their actions and words.
    You will either have to shut out the majority of everything you hear and see in the Team Lief culture, be in denial, be brainwashed, and/or be blind, and deaf to not recognize that they are full of and promote “materialism” and you will become materialistic by default.

    The entire business is promotion of the PC lifestyles’ and are used to entice and revolve around materialism, and pushing in your face about getting more of out of the life they say you always ‘wanted’; not needed or content with.

    I remember sitting and listening to every plan, didn’t matter the speaker because it was built right in the plan, you are to ask the audience what they would do if they, had and “xtra” 2-3 grand a month, and/or won the lottery etc

    The “Business” and the culture breeds, greed & materialism. The PC and others continually
    Brag and dangle the carrot… False hope, is a wicked way to sell any business. The evidence is in their comp plan, (see the video’s on Amthrax site by Mike Collins).

    .If what they say is true and they aren’t “materialistic, then why brag about their fleet of fancy and special ordered cars, airplanes, shopping sprees and Big diamond rings, write books about their month long vacations, how much money they spend on their things and everything else they have done and places they have been, you also have to ‘earn’ (qualify) and pay your way to see their mansions, spend time on their boats and yachts, and something I found most arrogant and a disgrace is they KNOW the mass majority that will continue to lose money..never make it or get the lifestyle and that is all them downline paying for their lifestyles; they have taken pictures of their child with Louis Vitton bag.

    The most disturbing and arrogant display of materialistic-ism, I have seen yet …was the Marks took a picture of their Dog and bragged about it wearing its Louis Vitton outfit on!

    I am not sure if there would be a sane soul on earth who could not recognize the materialistic arrogance in that, what a shame when 99% plus will Never make it to PC. I sincerely don’t know how they live with themselves.


  125. freedomhaha permalink
    October 14, 2012 6:19 am

    Melanie Morgan-

    “you will become materialistic by default.”

    I remember after a couple months in the TEAM being taken over by materialism. I was never a very materialistic person before (if you knew my two modest but nobel career choices it becomes obvious). I heard two family members talking about how I had changed during my time in TEAMcult. I was so brain washed that I thought it was a good thing. It wasn’t until I found Amthrax and left that I realized the entire conversation was about my materialistic nature that came out. So blessed to be gone!!

  126. October 14, 2012 10:42 am

    I would like to comment on Ageofwisdom’s comment about the poverty bit. If I heard that while I was in TEAM I’d be so offended becauae I was and is still on welfare. But at the time, my ex-sponsor told me that I could get off of welfare after about 3 months and earning 30 thousand dollars a month, possibly andso I got so excited and I reallyreallyreally wanted so bad to get my family off of welfare.

    While I do think it’s true there’s a lot of those who are on welfare who game the welfare system I will say that we all don’t cheat or lie and are bad citizens. I try very hard to do tzedakah as much as I can as Torah ***COMMANDS*** that we all to give to the needy, rich and poor alike. And believe me, here in North America, us welfare people aren’t poor compared to the third world nations.

    What a lot of us need is to be able to budget (and yes I will admit TEAM has helped me to budget, although with the wrong motives, cut back to buy more tools) but instead of making me more materialistic, I’ve become less materialistic and more appreciative of the intangible parts of our lives.

    I would say to the dude who re-tweeted that awful statement to stop generalising those of us who live under the poverty linie. A question for him (which he wont’ answer!!!!!!!!!!!!!! “Are YOU doing tzedakah with the millions YOU’re doing???? HUH?????”

    *end of rant* just made my blood boil when I saw this post in the email this morning. Thanks Age for posting – just another mean shot at us non-teamers.

  127. October 14, 2012 10:44 am

    Oy vey…the comment’s not directed at Ageofwisdom hiimself (BLUSH!!!) just the Hawkins fella that did the retweet, it’s HIM I’m doing the rant at not ageofwisdom, sorry :-p

  128. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    October 14, 2012 1:01 pm

    Elizabeth: I didn’t think you were ranting at me at all… saw how nuts I went when I saw what Hawkins had adopted for a “poverty position” from another—yikes, makes one’s blood literally boil, doesn’t it?

  129. January 2, 2013 8:36 am

    Editor’s Note: Comment deleted upon the personal request of the author.

  130. January 2, 2013 10:28 am

    @Renee – There is plenty of factual information on this website. Start with the timeline posts on the right-hand sidebar of this page. The leaders in LIFE started out in Amway, moved to MonaVie, and are now doing their own LIFE multi-level marketing company.

    From the timeline post, you can go to the LIFE Primer and read an analysis of the compensation plan.

    Finally, see if your husband or the guy trying to get you in can answer these questions about TEAM/LIFE. Many of these questions (i.e. the business-related ones) are legitimate for anybody looking to be successful in this type of business.

    Let us know how it goes. Good luck!

  131. No Team For Me permalink
    January 2, 2013 12:06 pm

    Renee – ask the person who showed you the LIFE business how they are following the 8-F’s which include Faith & Family when they encourage a man to go behind his wife’s back and commit to something that is such a big part of their life, without her approval.

    These guys are so hypocritical. They preach honesty, integrity, family values, etc. But you find out, these principles only apply when it benefits them personally. They tend to look the other way and apply ‘convenient Christianity” when things don’t benefit them.

    Run away from them as fast as you can. This is a HIGHLY destructive group of people!!!

  132. Raquel Peters permalink
    January 3, 2013 6:51 am

    Renee-Also read the Life Policies and Procedures. You can point out to your husband that they can take his business anytime for no reason. He owns nothing. They are lying to him when they call it “your business”. They have done it to many others after they made it. You can read my Fb page too. People are on there with their names. Be sure to see the expenses that I had building the business. We were in the top @40 income earners. The majority of the money went to the Pc. Only 7 PC toflday, since 1993 when Orrin got in Amway! Thats where Team came from! They split their tool business into Team and Life last year.

  133. Raquel Peters permalink
    January 3, 2013 7:00 am

    7 out of hundreds of thousands i would guess. I would also warn your family and friends before he starts contacting them. He will start brainwashing himself by listening to cds that his leadrrs will hand pick to fit his personality and situation. You will see him change. Try to fight him now or it will get harder as he gets in deeper mentally. If it is early you may want to give him an ultimatum while he still has his critical thinking in tact. Read the B.I.T.E. model at . I believe Team operates like a cult. Please take my warning seriously. I believe I was brainwashed for years by this group. My husband tried to get me out and eventually joined me to save our marriage. It has brought much destruction and devastation to our lives. We are so glad we are out now. Good luck. You can contact me on FB if you like.

  134. Raquel Peters permalink
    January 3, 2013 7:16 am

    When I left it realized our involvment in the group had stolen years with our kids, parents and grandparents. It stole my identity and years of my life. 20 years worth of work gone. Our photography business gone. My husbands plant manager job.gone. A family member is still trappes in the group and we dont speak. Years of Career advancement gone. Everything we worked for over 20 years is gone. We made it in Team we gave up our jobs. We were one of the rare 3% that made it. They stole much from us. Our family is financially and emotionally devastated from our involvement in the group. When you leave people that were your friends will slander you and lie about you. Our good name is ruined in our small town so we will be moving on to make new friends and new careers at 42 after loosing everything. By the way we sponsored Dan and Lisa Hawkins, Life founders…..we also have been threatened and now we are being sued by our upline. Go figure. I guess they dont like us talking about the truth.

    It really is discusting.

  135. Raquel Peters permalink
    January 3, 2013 7:18 am

    They stole all of that because they lied. It is a house of cards. Fake and full of lies.

  136. No Team For Me permalink
    January 3, 2013 8:35 am

    Renee – We agree with Raquel. That group stole years of our lives. We seriously believe this group acts exactly like a cult, in our opinion. Run far away and save as many as you can from the grips of this awful group.

  137. January 3, 2013 10:49 am

    Editor’s Note: Comment deleted upon the personal request of the author.

  138. January 3, 2013 10:58 am


    “…he… went behind my back to sign up.”

    In addition I think you have something else to get a hold of in your relationship – just saying. No doubt by their actions you can tell these are types you warn your kids against. As it is I would not wish where you are on anyone-it’s a treacherous spot. Sorry you are facing this.

    Whatever you have to do, do it quickly before these cultists get a chance at him. They will convince him that anyone who is not supportive is an enemy, i.e. anyone, that includes asking questions, attempting to reasoning with him, etc. Unfortunately thereafter, you trying to get to him will only drive him deeper into this cult.

    Right now it’s a race between you and these cultist as to who will get to his mind before the other. They have a plethora of devious tools and ways – hand selected cds, books, meetings/associations with “godified, pedestalized” charmers called ahem, leaders, etc. So you need help fast and lady good luck quickly. Study cults as suggested above, Steve Hassan is a good start and let us know how we can help. Again sorry you are facing this.

  139. January 3, 2013 11:02 am


    I just saw your divorce comment after I posted previously. I can’t believe they got to him that fast or he let them. Jeeszus!

  140. January 3, 2013 11:30 am

    Editor’s Note: Comment deleted upon the personal request of the author.

  141. No Team For Me permalink
    January 3, 2013 1:05 pm

    Renee – Hopefully you can get him to counseling. Unfortunately, these scamsters are very good at making people feel they should not have any outside influences – all counseling and advice should come from upline. They will try to give advice on marriage, finances, legal, and the list goes on and on. It’s ashame how many families’ these scamsters have ruined.

    We’ll be praying for you. Hopefully, since he is so new there is still time for you.

  142. January 3, 2013 1:58 pm


    Good! Don’t give up on him!

    He said support?!! Somebody hol’me!

    He has to present to you why he should get your support. And one of the things you as the smart, thoughtful wife you are, you have to make him consider is why TEAM came between you, in your marriage and signed him up without both your agreements while they knew both of you were not yet ready together to signup. I mean what if you signup and need support as well. Is there anything against that? If so why and how come it was not considered while he “…went behind your back and signed up?” Tact is very important here.

    It would seem honorable of them if they had attempted to provide you with more info., answer your questions, so that you can also come on board if so, on your own accord.

    Unfortunately this is the standard MO in this pernicious, puerile, pretend multi-level “industry”. They justify it’s ok to employ these underhanded, vileful and repugnant tactics because somehow later on when the big bucks come a rollin’ in you will forget everything unpleasant that happened while jumping up and down on those bucks. However, reality is different for 99%+ of MLM participants. Numerous have to part with their cash for one person to be termed “they are making money.”

    Again tact on your part is essential – as you can tell by his actions already – even if you decide not to support him. In fact don’t be surprised if he attributes his impending 99%+ guaranteed failure to lack of your support. But you know your man better.

    Just why people would choose to pull such a consternating move on a couple is heinous as it is reprehensible! What pride is there then, to be associated with such ilk of humans and their pretend cause even if to offer support? If anyone ever doubted MLMs can and do break marriages…

    All the best.

  143. Raquel Peters permalink
    January 3, 2013 2:07 pm

    Renee- do not say you got the info here. Do not attack him. Ask questions. They have groomed him already to not listen to critical info. To not listen to you. They are love bombing him. Do you have kids?

  144. Raquel Peters permalink
    January 3, 2013 2:14 pm

    If you attack you drive him into the arms of his new love….and further from you. Also be aware not many counselors are not knowledgable about cults or destructive groups although they claim they are. Ask gentle thought provoking questions. Demand time away from the group and do not give in to going to anything. Why do you suppose Orrin Woodward s pastor left Team? Why does it say in the policie and procedures they can take your business? Do you just trust strangers? Where in yhe paperwork does it say you are an owner of anything? Any business man would look into these things. Shouldn’t we take the paperwork to an attorney before we invest money and time and see what they think? Study up on pyramid schemes and the FTC has some great questions. Also ask to see tax returns with expenses.

  145. January 3, 2013 2:22 pm

    Editor’s Note: Comment deleted upon the personal request of the author.

  146. Raquel Peters permalink
    January 3, 2013 3:10 pm

    Oh man. He is already talking like long has he been in?

  147. Raquel Peters permalink
    January 3, 2013 3:11 pm

    No cds or books.

  148. Raquel Peters permalink
    January 3, 2013 3:14 pm

    I am so sorry. I would recommend you secretly read “Combatting cult mind control” by Steve Hassan. He has already been taught you will say its a cult. You will say its a scam. Their are negative people online. They teach that right away.he has been prepped to take away his critical thinking with stop thinking cliches.

  149. Raquel Peters permalink
    January 3, 2013 3:17 pm

    They use part truth with a lie or omit something important. So what they say seems legit. We are the enemy. You will become that too. I cannot believe he said the D word.! Wow.

  150. January 3, 2013 3:23 pm

    Editor’s Note: Comment deleted upon the personal request of the author.

  151. January 3, 2013 3:39 pm

    @Renee – What does your husband think he will get out of joining the LIFE Business? Ask him if he knows how many people are legitimately making it in the LIFE business today (i.e. free from working a job and living off the residuals). Ask him what questions he has regarding the business, or if he’s believing these guys at face-value.

  152. Melanie Morgan permalink
    January 3, 2013 3:49 pm


    I commend you for going for some “real” counseling, unfortunately your husband is buying into their destructive self-serving propaganda.

    It is stories like yours that keep me continuing to come back here. It is gut wrenching to read and quite frankly pi$$es me off. I am sorry that this destructive and divisive group that has gotten their slimy grip on your husband mind! Hang-in-there, don’t give up and Stand your ground!

    You state: “.. He is already threatening that maybe since I don’t support him we should just get divorced.”

    This is disturbing, uncalled for and so sad!

    So..Orrin and the rest of your Yes- men. Are you getting this?!! Add this to your ‘collection’ of division you all create! Your low-class tactics, rhetoric, propaganda, has struck again. How do you sleep? Why don’t you call off you dogs, take advantage of your arenas to send the proper messages.

    This and many other stories YOU could stop! Stop creating this, you send these messages constantly, so don’t you think it’s time to PDCA..and stop creating the wrong messages and abusing your positional leadership. How convenient some are targeting the military people…aren’t they used to taking “orders?” After all, you really are after “followers”, right?

    Why don’t you and your yes-men give a talk: ” DON’T give your wife or anyone an ultimatum of divorce because they aren’t “SUPPORTIVE”. You all know how many families the team has divided? Need names?

    I am patiently waiting for all of you to reap what you are sowing.

  153. Melanie Morgan permalink
    January 3, 2013 3:50 pm

    LiEfers…One last thing as the post title states…stop “Refusing to FACE the facts!”

  154. January 3, 2013 4:32 pm

    Add this as another arrow for your quiver from David Brear. It’s perhaps suited for his handlers. Understand the gist of it, adapt it to your liking/tone and then keep it in mind for an opportune moment.

    “Ignoring all their precisely-worded, anecdotal claims of being witnesses to ‘Success, Passive Income, Retirement, Financial Freedom,’ etc., the common-sense questions which no bleating ‘MLM’ adherent or propagandist wants to address are as follows:

    1. Since your so-called ‘Income Opportunity’s’ instigation, exactly how many people have signed-up for it and exactly how many of these so-called ‘Independent Business Owners’ have got back more money than they paid in?

    2. What independent quantifiable evidence can you supply which would prove that your so-called ‘Income Opportunity’ has had any significant and sustainable revenue other than that deriving from a never-ending chain of losing participants?”
    By David Brear.

  155. January 3, 2013 4:33 pm

    “…his handlers.”
    That is your husband’s TEAM handlers.

  156. Melanie Morgan permalink
    January 3, 2013 7:32 pm

    Excellent, thanks ExAmbot.

    Renee those questions posed by ExAmbot are excellent also all the others who have pointed you in the right direction to do more reading. Although these questions drill right to the core and are hard hitting, I know you won’t get them answered, on purpose, but perhaps it will make your husband THINK. Their has been some great suggestions and I hope you find what works for you since you know your husband the best. There are many “facts” you can get from here, take advantage of them.

    But from my experience, I know the “system” of books, cd’s, seminars, etc…lock out any “outside” input especially if it isn’t “supportive”….these seminars and other peer pressure meetings…take root very quickly and the consistent messages are “us vs them” and “them” meaning ANYONE whether it be a wife, pastor, mother, father, “outside of them”, it does not matter, it takes root in the minds of those who think they have found heaven on earth. They study and use so very effective cult tactics.

    The seminars/majors especially become the turning point in which you can visibly see the the ‘glazed over look’ from your loved one and notice the ‘change’. It is like you are talking to a recorded zombie after someone has attended one of these.

    The “members” become like a stone with their stubbornness and refuse to hear or see anything anyone else says. Most fall for the “nicey, nicey” amazingly “just what you been looking for all your life> positive, christian, like-minded (fakers), enviornment that is created to attach the ball & chain.

    Deception, “edification”, and peer pressure are the cornerstones with a bunch of irresistible..sweet lies in their messages. For those who are there are “looking” and the messages are hard to resist. Although they are clever the environment appears to be the “answer” to everything you need and want in your life and they deliver their messages in that way!

    But any resistance or legitimate questions (from you or anyone else) puts them on the defense, they resort to distract, divert, and deny, and whether logical or legitimate they refuse to hear you and the trainee’s will fire back with their “handling objections” or worse they will use what your husband did.

    They have a CD specifically for “handling objections” that is used as a thought stopping technique (rehearsed answers) to shut others down from asking more questions. Because their “goal” is to get the victim to the “next” step and especially a seminar where they can bombard them with the…positive, been looking for this all my life, environment…which without a doubt creates an us vs them mentality and where they “lock” people in!

    Everything they do is with “specific intent” and done strategically, walking you through every step, until they “gotta cha”.

    Once they fish and find your deepest wants, desires, and already know your needs, they play that to the hilt and will continuously feed you cd’s. and get you “around their uplinez’ who then solidifies with their canned game… leaves a person thinking is nothing shy of a rich saint…then throw in all it all kinds of pretentious edification of Orrin and the rest of those who can now walk on water..and then will full circle it right back your “want circle” or “dream”.

    It is a “systematic” way of “locking you in”…and you don’t even know what happened! You feel like your on a high and it seems all too good to be true…CUZ IT IS!

    Good Luck, Renee, I hope you let us know how you are doing, I wish you the best and if there is anything we can do, just ask! 🙂

  157. January 4, 2013 3:51 am

    Editor’s Note: Comment deleted upon the personal request of the author.

  158. Raquel Peters permalink
    January 4, 2013 4:51 am

    No where near Pa. Sorry.

  159. January 4, 2013 6:44 am

    Neither. Sorry.

    Your strategy has good intentions but at this point I doubt that it would yield any positive, worthwhile results if even you can get it implemented. From what you have said so far he is at the point where these new “friends” know what’s best. So I am not sure he would be willing to sit down with anyone else if not one these tricksters.

    Do not let him (or them) know you are reading this site or the web for any TEAM info. By now you can see why. You just might have to find a way to get info from them, then table your questions/concerns as if they are from what they have provided you with and not a shred of any other source, done in a manner to provoke your hubby to step back and think through things.

  160. January 4, 2013 6:51 am

    You will likely hear (if not yet) how the internet is the pee wall of the world, how it’s rife with losers who failed, yada yada, so how can you believe anything you read there. Well, we are far from that. We come from different ranks and with matching results to boot. We believed in the same spiel until we snapped out of it and saw the truth-for starters that MLMs are a dissimulated wealth transfer ponzi schemes from the majority peons to the few charlatans at the top of the pyramids. I know the world would not cease to thrive if all MLM products were banished right into the blazing Sun from this world.

    These schemes thrive on information control. Their gripe with the internet is that we can freely share the truth from Texas to Timbuktu, from Kauai to Pa and elsewhere to their chagrin, and there’s nothing they can do about it. That of course does not bode well with anyone keen on limiting, manipulating, obscuring or omitting infomation about their shenanigans. It’s the same reason the government wanted to legislate the web. A great majority of the starving peons of N.Korea don’t know the web exists (it’s even illegal to have a cellphone sans approval). Consequently in this day and age their living-high-on-the-hog, carviar-drinking charlatan president, et al, is still god, their country is heaven, there’s nothing out there in the world that’s good for them except TEAM I mean country, the US is the devil incarnate as is the media and the web for TEAM, etc. Again it’s an “us vs them” world-thanx Melanie.

    For having turned our backs on them and for what we learned we are their declared web-resident enemy as well. Truth is the web is a great equalizer. They don’t like it…tough!

    You, and others like you give me another reason to be here.

  161. January 4, 2013 10:04 am

    Hey Orrin…I thought the LIFE system was supposed to help marriages. It doesn’t sound like it’s helping Renee’s marriage! How many others out there have the same problem? My guess is that there are lots.

    How many other lies are being told on the TEAM? Could it be that the business is NOT exploding and people aren’t making money? It’s deplorable the you and your henchmen have resorted to attempting to split up families just to pad your own pockets. There’s a special place in Hell for you my friend.

  162. January 4, 2013 10:19 am

    And it hotter than Satan’s housecat.

  163. January 4, 2013 10:22 am

    And it’s…

  164. Melanie Morgan permalink
    January 4, 2013 12:29 pm


    I also don’t live anywhere near PA, either. And I agree it wouldn’t help but if you are looking for moral support, are looking for facts, experience, and info that they will most definitely try and hide, like their history, their practices and methods then this site and many others will be of great resource. On the moral support, I am sure Raquel and I maybe others would be willing to talk live.

    And as ExAmbot says we are the “enemy” (in their minds) and they consider this site and the internet the “bathroom stalls” of the world, or as ExAmbot so comically stated; “the pee wall of the world” haha.

    This would only be used by them along with “it’s negative”, they are “quitters, broke losers, haters” who didn’t do the work, want something for nothing and on and on..none of which is truth but it doesn’t matter to them whether it is truth… they will use this as a way to shut you down.

    Hypocritically, though they take full advantage of this “pee wall of the world” to further their agenda’s and fictitious, amazing, wealth transferring scheme of a “business opportunity” and mostly to sway their image & google bomb or try and rank this and others sites lower than their’s.

    They use with all their might..the internet (bathroom stalls) and social media (Twitter, Linkden, numerous other copy-n-paste Blogs, and even Pinterest to try and give one-way view of them). It is to them a treasured “tools” of the day, and wouldn’t be surprised if they are making money by clicks…The “internet” is Amazing..when and only when it serves them as all things they use, including so their so called friendships/relationships etc..If you want to see how they “value” their relationships, just check out all the comments of those that had “friendships” including spouses..and how they so quickly are willing to dispose of them like trash when you choose a different path from them! The evidence of this is overwhelming!

    The “negative> truth” is not a bad thing as they would like you to believe, the truth is the truth and it is too bad they have created it too be “negative”. Imho, they just do not want to face the facts of their actions and as long as it isn’t “told” then all is good in their world. It is a common argument or one of their “handling objections” to disarm you and try and make it appear their is something wrong with or to discredit others… or so they think. Hope you are encouraged.

  165. Melanie Morgan permalink
    January 4, 2013 12:29 pm

    Renee, I wish there was more we could do…here might be a try:

    Share your concerns just as you have here, that the “business” is causing strife in your marriage along with sharing your other concerns and the statement your husband made to you, that he seems to be willing to throw away a marriage of 15 years?; with the people in his “upline” ask for their help in encouraging your husband to remove himself from “the business” for a while so you both can get to the real counseling you have asked him to go to.

    And at the same time, send a written letter address to Orrin Woodward@ the Team Office sharing your concerns of how this is interfering in your marriage and see what their “advice” is?

    If their “solution” is to “meet with their upline” for “counseling”.. read this “marriage book” or attend this meeting”, listen to this “marriage” cd…then ask if they are qualified as “marriage counselor’s”…and then share with them you already have a ‘qualified’ person in mind,(which is what I believe they will try and do) but just know, you ought be prepared for them to use their best tricks of the trade, wearing you down with: “you need be supportive”, or a bunch of pressure.. blah, blah,blah..If nothing else it will give your real counselor a clear idea of what you are working with and then you will get some workable advice. A cult expert would be the best 🙂

    It would be interesting, on how concerned they really are for your marriage and how they would address your concerns. 🙂

  166. January 4, 2013 2:54 pm

    I agree! Actually that’s the approach that would not give away your presence here and it’s strong enough in itself.

    Here’s a bunch of questions I would ask them in the same setup. That clearly since they appeared they have brought strife into your marriage, home, FAMILY RELATIONSHIP, and caused NEGATIVE feelings towards them. How then do they expect you to be in HARMONY as a home and pursue this thing in DISUNITY? cAN IT EVEN WORK? Do they expect to work with your husband to your exclusion? Say you don’t feel they are SUPPORTING you and your family if they overlook this issue and seek to work with hubby only. How can they expect family support? Is this how they expect you to treat your married FRIENDS and THEIR FAMILIES as you recruit them in the future? How can there be SOLID support? Are they in favor of this scenario where they work with your husband and there’S no unity at home and yet YOU WANT TO SUPPORT HIM?How can any POSITIVE RESULTS be ACHIEVED FOR THE FAMILY? Do they want to support your husband genuinely in this program? Do they want to SUPPORT YOUR FAMILY TO ACHIEVE? Do they want to support you? Would they like to see your FAMILY MOVING ON? Will they support FAMILY UNITY, HARMONY, SINGLE FOCUS, PEACE….family part of 8 F’s (get your hands on something that relates this). If so then it is honorable for them to first give your family a space to make repairs of this then re-connect later when your family is back to normal. That this is the support you have to ask of them right now and you are woman of virtue and YOUR WORD is YOUR BOND.

  167. January 4, 2013 2:55 pm

    I don’t know whether it’s dangerous to feign now that you will GUNG-HO, JUMP ALL THE WAY IN after this is sorted out within your family and you will ABSOLUTELY be ready for them thereafter or simply that they can EXPECT YOUR SUPPORT THEN. The goal, however you decide to do it, is to get them away from your hubby, stall his progress into the cult and then take the maximum advantage of their absence with him. ***I would love for others to weigh in on this.***

    Any cultist with two brains to rub together would not want to be in the midst of this scenario. Not the lower achelon peons tho’. Those ones live on desparation and it’s the only gear they have and it points forward no caution. The higher the trickster the better chance they will heed to step aside – they are leaders you know, atchoo! not desprate (yawn), have followers and want to set a good example for them. So it’s likely they could step away. Barring that they could be the source of greater pressure as they want have a point to prove to their peons of what great leaders they are becoming.

    BTW In your talks sprinkle the words in CAP-they are very endearing to cultists and you will be speaking their language. Consequently they will call you very sharp, etc. and likely have a better predisposition to hear and cede to you more, hopefully, than if they thought otherwise of you.

  168. Raquel Peters permalink
    January 5, 2013 2:40 am

    Amthrax- I am wondering how many people are reading this site daily or weekly?

  169. January 5, 2013 5:21 am

    Editor’s Note: Comment deleted upon the personal request of the author.

  170. No Team For Me permalink
    January 5, 2013 6:14 am

    Renee – sounds like you might be making some headway. Just go over the Policies and Proceedures with him. It’s a joke. You can read about it on this site. That alone should be enough of a red flag for him to really question this. Especially since this is their own document (not something found on the internet).

  171. January 5, 2013 9:42 am

    WordPress recently updated its software to display how many unique visitors are coming to the site (in addition to total page views). Traffic has been down slightly since I gave my last update. This past week saw a high of 429 visitors viewing just under 1500 pages (total). Visitors has been fluctuating from 200+ to 400 visitors on a daily basis. There’s no historical information on unique visitors, so I’ll just be keeping track from this point forward.

  172. January 5, 2013 9:44 am

    @Renee – We once analyzed the original policies and procedures document back in October, 2011. They may have updated it since then.

  173. Raquel Peters permalink
    January 5, 2013 10:21 am

    Thanks Amthrax! The public is interested in this site! I wouod be interested to know what the numbers are when big stories break like the bankruptcies of Team Leaders. I would gueas word of mouth would spike interest at those times?

  174. Melanie Morgan permalink
    January 5, 2013 10:34 am


    There are a couple of questions you can ask and have seek the answers: Logical questions that would alarm anyone if they were going to ‘give’ all their energy and money too. From a business stand point alone, you will see…(not to mention, the lawsuits, and all the other damage and division this causes), I believe you will hear the alarm bells going off.

    1) Does he REALLY “own” his own business? If not Who does? Is he allowed to make all the critical decisions for his business or does the PC make them all?

    2) Is he morally okay with 97% of the family and friends he brings in WILL lose money? They fail to tell you the “odds” of ever making it. It would serve you well to watch the “comp-plan” analysis and the comp-plan video that you can find on this site. Does he know the “attrition rate” (the given rate of people who naturally quit every month, and year?)

    3) Does he know “his” business can be taken away for any reason at any time (at the discretion of his ‘upline’ or pc? Does he know he has to be “voted-in” and can be “voted-out for any reason? Have they told him this?

    4) Does he know they also “pay” people from the Team side tools, or is this a “secret”, or has he only been told about the ‘chances’ of getting paid from LiEf ?

    5) Is he allowed to ask (without recourse) how he is paid?

    ***So, He could “work” the business 6-7 nights per week, bring thousands in and or bring the TOP hundreds of thousands of dollars in volume, and it all be ‘out of his control’ whether they continue to pay him for his efforts or NOT? This has happened to us the Peter’s and others.

    The LiEf P&P it states something to the effect, you or anyone in your family, if they disagree and voice that opposing opinion or if they embarrass them in some way, or for ANY reason they choose… they Can and & will take your business.

    6) Is he given the “formula” to check to see how and if he is paid fairly or is he just ‘expected’ to “trust” they pay him correctly. (there is one, but it’s secret) on HOW HE IS PAID? How then can he be certain they are paying fairly, just because they “say” they are “Christian” and do? We have been told Orrin has ‘messed’ with the “pay”, in the past, therefore for that reason and others have good reason to believe he didn’t pay us fairly!

    These questions if he will open his eyes and should wake him up. I hope all this helps but read everything with a fine tooth comb and it shouldn’t be hard to find the answer’s. Keep us posted, I salute you for standing strong and caring so much to do the research.

    There are many “red-flags”. I have no doubt you will find what they say from stage and what is in their fine print and the P&P won’t be congruent. Sincerely, I wish you the best! 🙂

  175. Raquel Peters permalink
    January 5, 2013 10:35 am

    Renee- My upline is suing me for telling my story! It could cost up to $20, 000 just to defend myself from b.s. attack from a guy who made tens of thousands from my work, off my back!
    Look through P and Team Lie is telling your husband he can have a pipeline, ongoing income…..and ger his rime back and yet it says they can take his team business whenever they want for no reason inn their own P and P. Their telling your husband he owns his Team Life business yet he legally owns NOTHING! We found that out the hard way! Get info from Consumer Protection. In Wisconsin Consumer Protection information says you can legally be held financially liable for what you promise others while doing this business regardless of who told you to say what! I was never told that either!

  176. Raquel Peters permalink
    January 5, 2013 10:44 am

    I think you are on the right track! An attorney will tell you to run! Team took many of its own leaders’ incomes already aftwr years of investment and full time work. Some like Melanie and I never signed any contract stating they could do that! Team is still earning income off the investments we made! That is theft by contract fraud! We could go on and on. What they say and what they do are two different things. Orrin Woodward the owner told me in an email ” you don’t own your customers” when refering to the team I invested in. I will post it when I can. After 6 years of working more than full time!
    I actually am glad they sued me….now I get to tell my story to a judge under oath! lol!

  177. Raquel Peters permalink
    January 5, 2013 10:50 am

    The legal liability alone is not worth getting involved…what if a former member sues Team for fraud and they lose? What happens to your husbands business and his reputation with friends and family? Or what if your upline interferes in your business and decides to changw companies to a very expensive product that most cannot afford? You are better off going to the casino! They are lying to your husband in my opinion because they believe the lies they have been told!

  178. Melanie Morgan permalink
    January 5, 2013 6:42 pm

    Great Points, Raquel.

    There are way more “liabilities”… from a business & personal standpoint are NOT worth the investment, problem is that they are allowed to ‘police or govern themselves because they know “the odds” of ever getting investigated due to many factors are slim but not NONE.

    The damages to tens of thousands… Finances, Families, Faith, The damage to a person’s Balance in life, Autonomy, Conscience & Soul, Relationship, Reputations, Loss of Time with Loved ones, Lies you have to tell yourself & others (cognitive dissonance), Idolatry, the Greed it creates, etc.. Just from those I have witnessed…the evidence is overwhelming, negative, and damaging!

    Honestly the ONLY “positive” in some cases, not in all (as it turns) are some of the people that I love dearly and wouldn’t give up for nothing, but I NEVER got started in a “business” to make friends…I can do that anywhere and certainly I do believe in paying for friendships!!

    The “negative effect”… not just on one’s life but has a far reaching.. ripple effect… far, far out way the “positive.”

    Real and Geniune Life is too short, to waste on people who are not who they say they are…the ones I believe, or have given me enough evidence to know they are corrupt, ‘use’ others for their greedy personal gain.

    They knowingly cause all these damages, and build their comp plans as such, to guarantee the wreckage and losses so many have testified to and millions more who stay silent.. The truth is gaining momentum or truth- “growth” and momentum…. eventually something will have to give… I believe if it wasn’t for sites like this and many others, sharing the truth and stories…and many good people fighting to make those changes… Nothing would change at all …they would be left to ‘govern’ themselves…and we know where that leads…right where the industry is!

    There is NOTHING like Freedom of your Mind….and I believe they try and control even that..NEVER AGAIN!

  179. Melanie Morgan permalink
    January 5, 2013 6:46 pm

    Blooper; Correction”..I do NOT Believe in paying for friendships…that I would consider bribery if you have to “pay” to have or keep friends.

  180. January 7, 2013 5:48 am

    Editor’s Note: Comment deleted upon the personal request of the author.

  181. Raquel Peters permalink
    January 7, 2013 6:07 am

    be sure to get information on pyramid schemes from the FTC and check out the customer rules. You wouldnt want to do anything illegal. and ask the attorney what you “own” and what rights do you have if it goes south and your upline takes your team according to the Life Policies and Procedures and contract.

  182. Raquel Peters permalink
    January 7, 2013 6:19 am

    Renee- have you read the Do as I say Not As I Do. Banckruptcy Filings? Pretty hard hitting evidence on what the real expenses are in the business. Thousands a month in expenses for leaders.

  183. January 7, 2013 10:58 am

    Editor’s Note: Comment deleted upon the personal request of the author.

  184. freedomhaha permalink
    January 7, 2013 12:01 pm

    Renee- Keep fighting the good fight! My thoughts and prayers are with you.

  185. January 8, 2013 5:39 pm

    Editor’s Note: Comment deleted upon the personal request of the author.

  186. Melanie Morgan permalink
    January 8, 2013 7:34 pm


    Would William Haddon be a name you would recognize? Something tells me you may know him. You can read his comments here:

  187. January 9, 2013 3:25 am

    Editor’s Note: Comment deleted upon the personal request of the author.

  188. January 9, 2013 8:48 am

    Editor’s Note: Comment deleted upon the personal request of the author.

  189. January 9, 2013 7:23 pm

    Everyone – I was asked by Renee to delete her comments. Although the discussion was valuable, let’s respect her decision and wish her the best with her current situation.

  190. Raquel Peters permalink
    January 9, 2013 7:42 pm

    William deleted the thread on the FB page. Pretty rude he was.

  191. letsendit@life permalink
    January 22, 2013 8:20 pm

    I’m not sure where what I’m about to share would fit best amongst this blog but it hits close to home for me in how I believe it relates to the team business. I was watching a tv series earlier in the day on CNBC called american greed. This episode was called “Driven by Greed.” Basically it’s about two friends who come across a lucrative business oppurtunity. The lucrative oppurtunity is dubbed “Miracle Car Club.” The two friends claim to be the heirs to a 400+million estate left by his father who wants to donate his assets to christian people. The plan seems to be cut and dry, For $1,000 a person can buy one of the estate’s “Miracle Cars.” The whole thing sounds to good to be true but the faithful christians believe… There were thousands of “Miracle Car” Buyers, almost all of them were from churches around the country after word spread from the main church, Christ Christian Home Missionary Baptist Church. The two friends then told their followers that his father left instructions to sell all the estates cars to fellow believers. The cars were to be sold to these good christians for the low $1,000 estimated as to what the tax liability to the estate. The catch was the cars couldn’t be delivered until the estate cleared probate, and the car’s VIN #’s couldn’t be released due to a gag order imposed by the probate judge. They got the name “Miracle Cars” since the kids father intended the vehicles to be miracles for people who had led dreary lives. Once the two guys realized how fast the 16 estate vehicles sold, they told everyone the fleet was much bigger than the original 16. News spread through the christian community and the two men were so overwhelmed by the number of people coming forward, that the men designated “Team Captains” to handle the sales. Over the four years the scam ran the sales were over $21 million dollars. It was finally exposed when the team leaders & two main conspirators finally drew the attention of the attorney generals, IRS fraud experts, & U.S. Postal Inspector Service. They ended up spending two years following the money trail and took them down. However victims of this “Miracle” only recieved 6% of their total losses.

    With all that said and watching the program, I really think you can compare/contrast this car scam to the team miracle scam. I really think the head guru of greed and its “Team Captains” in team really take advantage of religion and its powerfulness over people. It’s really sick. I feel know that Pastor Dickie is no longer involved Team Orrin & Crew went to Florida or whereever they found this new church and are taking advantage of these people’s faith and belief to gain monetarily.
    I think it’s funny there were two main men who came across this lucrative car scam opportunity and expolited it. Kind of like Orrin & Chris hearing Michael Dell, the benchmarks, and whatever else they could come up with to make them selves creditable then went on to take their miracle to a church and its members.
    To me team tries to make people feel worthless/lost/leading dreary lives/quiet lives of desperation, and so on just as the two conspiarators in the miracle car scam had told and done the people of their church.
    I really could go on but think i’ve made my point. I think this site and the people speaking out about their experiences in the ever so name changing team will eventually, like with the car scam, lead to its dismantlization. It may not be overnight and its unlikely that victims will recieve much to any compensation, just as in the car scam but just maybe they will be found out for who/what they really represent. Maybe we’ll be wathcing an episode on Orrin & friends on American Greed someday.

  192. Renee permalink
    January 24, 2013 5:12 am

    Team/Life will only let you read what they want you to read on their website!! I made a comment on their LIFE Business: One-Time Cash Awards blog not really bashing it but saying any real business lets you read the good & bad etc but it went to moderator & I’m now blocked from blog.

  193. freedomhaha permalink
    January 24, 2013 9:12 am

    Renee- That is how this cult operates. Amthax has an infinite amount of integrity compared to OW and CB simply because he allows both sides of the coin on this blog. Not one single TEAM blog, or Anti-Amthrax allows dissenting comments in any way. This is in direct opposition of the Freedom “F”.

    Simply sickening.

  194. MemoryLame permalink
    January 24, 2013 9:05 pm

    @freedom. That’s exactly right.

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