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Notes from the Orrin Woodward LIFE Business Conference Call

December 4, 2012

Last week, an email came down from Policy Council member Bill Lewis encouraging everyone to leave a comment on several TEAM/LIFE blogs. The reward was a conference call with Orrin Woodward himself.

Sources tell me that the call was held late Monday evening. The call was originally scheduled for 10:15 pm, but it took over 25 minutes for Orrin to get on the call. According to my sources, his excuse went something like this:

Hah hah. Sorry I was sitting here working away at my desk… and all fired up… and then I look and I’m like I’ll get on 10 minutes early. The next time I looked up at my computer clock, it’s 10:36! Whoa!

Orrin should re-read the TEAM Builder’s Handbook he wrote with Chris Brady, specifically this paragraph that talks about one-on-one plans and the importance of being punctual:

For One-on-One Plans

… Show up on time. Tardiness is a sign of a lack of discipline, disrespect for the other person, or both. Be prompt. Please note, though, that this does not mean be early. You don’t want to appear eager or as if you have nothing better to do than to visit them that evening.

— Orrin Woodward and Chris Brady, TEAM Builder’s Handbook (Fourth Edition 2009), Page 86

Bill Lewis responded to Orrin’s excuse with, “No problem. We always have some late people calling in anyway.” Tell that to everyone who was on the call and waiting patiently at the prescribed time!

Prior to Orrin joining the conference, Lewis instructed everyone to post a comment on these two posts:

I see a number of comments have come in shortly after the conclusion of the conference call Monday night.

Bill Lewis emphasized how important it is for TEAM/LIFE to own the messaging in the top ten spots, using his “The Shocking Truth About Orrin Woodward” post as an example of how posting comments help improve their Google rankings. After “Orrin Woodward,” the next term that they apparently want to pump up in the search engine rankings is “LIFE Business.”

Last I checked, this site continues to be among the top ten search results for both terms. And, unlike Orrin Woodward and TEAM, the popularity of this site is completely organic and not gamed in any way.

According to my sources, Bill then ceded the floor to Orrin, who spoke about a new TEAM/LIFE acronym, MEO, which stands for Marketing Execution Orchestration. Supposedly, MEO is the (new?) plan to go to million people.

Orrin explained that people need to become masters at online marketing. He made an interesting comment directed — to some degree — at the critics:

I’m all for… and I think everyone has a right to an opinion. I’ll fight for someone’s right to have an opinion even if they disagree with me. But… that same token, we have the right to our opinion…

Well, that’s one thing that Orrin and I are in agreement! Critics have just as much right as proponents to talk about the LIFE Business. Personally, I encourage people who are looking at the LIFE Business to hear both sides. Research the good, research the bad, and make an informed decision as to whether or not you’ll be joining the business. Obviously, the critical stories and comments posted here shows that not everyone buys into the LIFE Business.

Orrin categorized everyone on the conference call as being part of the LIFE Business’ marketing department. Do health benefits and 401K’s come with that?

At one point, Orrin employed the time-honored MLM tactic of, “If I can do it, you can too!” He described the mere act of leaving a comment is just a few steps away from becoming a best-selling author. He used the example of Tim Marks who — by Orrin’s own admission — could barely read and blog before he became a Viking… err… best-selling TEAM/LIFE author.

Orrin also alluded to the money-making potential of a super TEAM/LIFE blogger and author. At the Coordinator or Senior Coordinator level, a TEAM/LIFE member should start his or her own blog. He said that this person — as a result of listening to thousands of CD’s and reading hundreds of books — had now become a thought leader in America. What happens after that? Let Orrin explain (bold emphasis mine):

… and the next thing you know, when you’re writing, when you can write a blog post that doesn’t take you that long cause you’re able to think on… you’ve listened to so many CD’s, read so many books. Well, you’re now in the position you go PC, you go Double PC which is right now our criteria. By the time you are Double PC, you are writing a book that is going to impact tens of thousands. You understand? At the rate of growth… it’s not going to be that long that there will be hundred thousand people on the LIFE subscription!

Was Orrin about to say that TEAM/LIFE members were able to “think on their own?” I don’t know, but I do know that they can recite quotes from CD’s and passages from books practically verbatim!

After a discussion about the Execution and Orchestration components of MEO, Bill Lewis concluded the call by telling those in attendance how special it was to get a one-on-one conference call with Orrin Woodward. Sources say that no one was able to ask Orrin a direct question, however, so I don’t see how that was a one-on-one anything.

At any rate, there’s been another call to action for TEAM/LIFE members to post comments on the two blog posts listed above. If they get into the top ten search results on Google, there’ll be another conference call with Orrin. I wonder what nuggets of wisdom Orrin and Bill will discuss then. Might I suggest answering some of these 50+ questions for the LIFE Business?

  1. permalink
    December 4, 2012 7:17 am

    Where is Raquel?

  2. Rascal Teamster permalink
    December 4, 2012 7:22 am

    I said it before, and I’ll say it again……reeeeeaaaaaaly sloooooooooow.

    If Orrin requires his front line leaders to start blogging and commenting, he’s going to burn out his group. Can you see Jim Martin or Mark Paul becoming full time bloggers? They have blogs, but they don’t post to them. I know they hate it.

    Orrin once said from stage, “the problem with trying to teach a pig to sing is that you’ll end up frustrated, and it just makes the pig mad.”

    I have no idea why that just popped into my head….

  3. freedomhaha permalink
    December 4, 2012 9:32 am

    Rascal- But they are retired and have all the time in the world to blog 😉

    besides Tuesday meetings, monthly seminars, four times a year majors, reading, hosting TeamCasts, listening to 8 CD’s a day, mentoring, showing the plan 15 times a month. Woooooooooweeeeeee that sounds like the easy life to me!

  4. I QUIT (and glad I did) permalink
    December 5, 2012 6:51 am

    The result for those fortunate few to hear the nuggets of wisdom from Owen is the equivilent of a fart in the wind.

  5. December 5, 2012 9:44 am

    I am SO much happier working my J.O.B. and having my evenings free, than I was running the roads EVERY night, for years on end, chasing a dream that Orrin and the TEAM yanked away from me just as it was within reach.

    It’s upsetting that THEY are still living the dream life at the expense of so many other people, but in the long run, they really did us a favor. It must be hard to keep living the lie, stabbing people in the back day after day after day, all in the name of greed. It’s good they are retired, because it’s a full-time job being a Spin Doctor on the TEAM, coming up with new schemes, name changes and new business models that will be the new “last thing you’ll ever have to get good at.” It’s plain to see that they are scrambling and getting desperate…the Titanic is going down!

    It’s probably just as well that they’re running the roads at night, because I don’t know how they can sleep!

  6. OhBeJoyful permalink
    December 6, 2012 7:07 am

    Point 7 in the “LIFE Business: First Year Results – Posted by Orrin Woodward on November 5, 2012”

    7. Customers composed nearly 20% of total LIFE business subscriptions in its first year. Considering new members have six months to learn how to develop customers, this number will only grow as members complete training. What other community building business hits 20% customer subscriptions in its first year?

    Doesn’t anyone else find this statement absolutely astounding?

    Is Orrin really saying that there is less than 1 customer for every 4 distributors in the LIFE business?

    I would think that a distributor would need well over a hundred customers to have a viable business. Imagine walking in a McDonald’s and seeing that four out of five people waiting in line to buy a Big Mac are employees of McDonald’s. That doesn’t look like a workable business model to me!

  7. freedomhaha permalink
    December 6, 2012 7:24 am

    Speaking of things that aren’t workable… 97% of people losing money.

  8. Rascal Teamster permalink
    December 6, 2012 8:01 am


    That was an awesome comment…really good.

    From Orrin’s own mouth there is a difference between members and customers. LIFE members are not all customers. They use the words Customer and Member very loosely and deceptively. But what really got me was that “Team members have 6 months to develop customers.” What the hell is that? You develop a customer?

    I own retail stores. We don’t develop customers. We demonstrate the value of our products, we give the price, and we ask for the sale. But we’re selling legitimate products that people want at a price they are willing to pay.

    It was easier on Team when you could say, “like this energy drink? Want to buy some? Want to see how that becomes a business?” Now they have to learn how to develop a customer? Yikes.

    The PC screwed up the product with the LIFE business. In doing so, they screwed up the need for the Team system. Even if they were to switch products now, they can’t revive the “need” for the system. It wouldn’t make sense to the new guy.

    Orrin really isn’t smarter than Orrin after all. So all you PC & Round Tables keep blogging and commenting. When it all falls apart all you’ve accomplished is establishing Orrin as a success guru. I’m sure he and Chris will thank you for the FREE marketing you’re giving them. Chis will send his regards and well wishes from Italy, and maybe like GM, Orrin will also give you a pizza party??? So sad……

  9. freedomhaha permalink
    December 6, 2012 8:54 am

    Rascal- Outstanding post as always, but you made one crucial mistake in it. You tried to apply the laws of rational economics to TEAM. Some things are in fact impossible. 🙂

  10. Melanie Morgan permalink
    December 6, 2012 10:58 am


    Another Excellent Article! I am grateful to all of you who help educate the public on this scam. And since Orrin says (haha) everyone has the right to their opinion and he will even fight for it?..

    It begs the question; Why then is Eric Blomdahl suing Raquel Peters for her opinion and sharing her experience? ( a representative of, getting counseling from and following “Orrin & George;” all the PC and getting paid by Team). This must mean Orrin will be in court fighting for Mark & Raquels “rights?”

    Amthrax: “Last I checked, this site continues to be among the top ten search results for both terms. And, unlike Orrin Woodward and TEAM, the popularity of this site is completely organic and not gamed in any way.”

    Well then, it would appear that Orrin has a lot to learn about his “marketing department” (amazing the independent business owners are now their marketing dept?..If the Team is as good as they claim it is, then they wouldn’t have to tell the followers to google bomb.. (company marketers now? too many labels to CTA)..What are they ‘customers’

    One last question: Where is the Team IDS? And since I understand there is a separate “pay out” for LIFE, where is that IDS? It should speak for itself. He apparently has this “data” (20% customers and the back office tracks all numbers).

  11. Melanie Morgan permalink
    December 6, 2012 11:05 am


    Orrin might orchestrate a “pizza party” but everyone else has to pay for it!

    Great comments!

  12. Melanie Morgan permalink
    December 6, 2012 11:10 am

    Thanks to you all who sacrifice here, interesting Orrin claims he is a whistle-blower or is it that he knew he wouldn’t have control over his “Pyramid on top of a Pyramid” ( the Team training company, according to Forbes).

    Interesting he cannot see that is what this site is…Whistle Blowers! Thanks to All!

    Isaiah 42:5-7

    New International Version (NIV)

    5 This is what God the Lord says—
    the Creator of the heavens, who stretches them out,
    who spreads out the earth with all that springs from it,
    who gives breath to its people,
    and life to those who walk on it:
    6 “I, the Lord, have called you in righteousness;
    I will take hold of your hand.
    I will keep you and will make you
    to be a covenant for the people
    and a light for the Gentiles,
    7 to open eyes that are blind,
    to free captives from prison
    and to release from the dungeon those who sit in darkness.

  13. freedomhaha permalink
    December 6, 2012 11:57 am

    We have nothing to gain from this site while TEAM has everything to gain by gaming the search results. Fact.

  14. Rascal Teamster permalink
    December 6, 2012 12:31 pm

    I’m just waiting for this to back fire on them and Google to blackball them. It may happen. It’s happened to a LOT of retailers in my industry. Retailers have been gaming Google forever.

    But Google just dropped the bomb on the Google bombers about a month ago. They changed their search parameters. They always wanted to be a research search engine….not a retail search listing where people go to promote their business.

    I have many friends who had YouTube videos, articles on online sites, as well as multiple websites all linked to their main site….trying to do what Tram is doing……overload the search engine with traffic and links to increase page rank. I have friiends who can’t even get their website to pop up in Google unless they type the actual business name. None of their search terms or links help anymore. Retail sites don’t post while blogs, information, and review sites seem to get priority. Google confirmed all of this in company PR piece.

    OMG…..out of curiosity, i just checked Google. It happened to Team, too. Oh that’s funny. I just typed the following search terms into Google.

    Leadership business
    Success business
    Leadership mlm business
    Leadership networking business

    LIFE doesn’t even pop up anymore, and it used to pop up rather high when I typed the last search term. Matter of fact, i can’t get the LIFE business to pop up in any search when accompanied by the word, “leadership.” If LIFE isn’t in the search terms, it’s not posting to Google.

    LOL…..there’s no way they can fix this. Google won’t even talk to you about it. The more they try to post, the worse it will get.

    I have been watching the search engines…..very quietly……waiting to see if this would happen to Team. And it did. The Google Bomber got bombed.

  15. December 6, 2012 2:35 pm

    @rascal – at one point, TEAM/LIFE members need to ask themselves, are they building up their businesses by commenting on these sites or having their own blogs, or are they building up the businesses for their TEAM/LIFE Policy Council members like Orrin Woodward? Orrin would have them believe that their efforts at online marketing are improving the status of the LIFE business, but if you look closely at the type of comments being made, they are more along the lines of trying to improve Orrin’s standing in the search engine rankings.

    I would argue, in fact, that having too many clone blogs and positive, happy feeling comments might encourage people to look even harder for evidence to the contrary. I certainly see this with the search traffic coming to this site.

  16. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    December 6, 2012 2:54 pm

    Rascal: you are putting wrong word parameters in Google search? I just put in terms written like this: LIFE/Team and: Amthrax came up third….and 5th was O.W.’s own blog, followed by other members….

  17. Soon2BOut permalink
    December 6, 2012 9:04 pm

    i typed in orrin woodward and this website doesnt even come up on the first page. its the 2nd link on the 2nd page.

  18. Rascal Teamster permalink
    December 6, 2012 9:08 pm


    The reason I entered them the way I did is because of the way Orrin is pitching this. He is pitching this as the way they will bump up the page rank of the LIFE site. This is all being done to promote the LIFE business, so they are told. If the LIFE site never makes it to the first page of the search listings, or at least above the critics, they fail. You are supposed to be able to type the word, “leadership” into Google and be dominated by LIFE and PC blogs.

    It’s the LIFE site that appears to be black balled due to their gaming. Orrin owns a blog and is getting great traffic. Blogs aren’t on Googles hit list. Orrin’s blog will always show up. Blogs usually contain information and don’t sell products….like this site that does so well in the search engines. Remember Google wants to be the place you go to research stuff….not buy stuff.

    This is all stupid anyway. There is no way they can remove Amthrax from the first page, which is their ultimate goal. Orrin knows this. That’s what’s so comical. All the LIFE members are doing by commenting to these blogs is validating the worthiness of the PC blog owner. They are doing nothing to help the LIFE site as they are being told. Quite the opposite. They are hurting it. But you see who is still benefiting…..Orrin… your search proved.

  19. Melanie Morgan permalink
    December 6, 2012 11:36 pm


    I appreciate all you are sharing on the web stuff. You nailed it! It is, has been and always will be about promoting, Orrin.

  20. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    December 7, 2012 3:46 am

    @Rascal and SoonToBe: my friend and I conducted a search test while we were on the phone with each other: our Google search results were different from each other every time. BTW, when I type in O.W.’s name, he comes up first, on page one, as it should be.

  21. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    December 7, 2012 3:50 am

    Clarification of my above post: what I mean by “as it should be”: I, for one, do not want my Google search to not be efficient when I search on a name. That’s all. ( Note: I didn’t and don’t need any further explanations about Google bombing, etc. I “get it”–was just trying to show that each one searching from their own computer seem to get slightly different results).

  22. Freedomhaha permalink
    December 7, 2012 4:47 am

    Ageofwisdom- I just hope this shows up first when people Google “OW Scam” 🙂

  23. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    December 7, 2012 5:42 am

    Freedom: I tried putting that in (what you listed in your last post)…you know what came up first? #1) OW’s leadership blog page; #2) team scam at; #3) orrinwoodwardscam at; #4) OW Scams and Lies, Monavie, etc., at; #5) the same type of title but a video from; #6) OW Scam commentary from Dan Hawkins Leadership blog. and then #7 and #8 is Amthrax (about the conference call; and “stand by your scam” info)………….but again, that’s what’s coming up on my computer. Every time my girlfriend and I try it (she is using Vista; I am using MS7, I think), we each come up with something different.

  24. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    December 7, 2012 5:43 am

    freedom: I just posted here as to what came up in my google search of “OW scam” and again, it did not appear on the board……..anyway: when I did it, OW came up first; Amthrax came up 7th and 8th. The others in-between were other pro/con sites.

  25. freedomhaha permalink
    December 7, 2012 6:50 am

    I am eternally grateful that this came up in the Google search when I was looking for Joe Darkangelo’s blog. Three or four spots below that it said “Joe Darkangelo’s bankruptcy”, and saved my life. Who knows that I would be doing right now if it wasn’t for the great people here on this blog? I know for a fact I would not be in the position of having an excellent job while also starting my own business like I am right now. Thanks again to everyone that helped me!

  26. Melanie Morgan permalink
    December 7, 2012 1:55 pm

    Interesting, I just searched “Orrin Woodward Scam” in Google and Amthrax site came up number one. 🙂

    This link is #1:

    I also search the same, “Orrin Woodward Scam”… on “bing” and these are number one and number two sites: (#1-, (#2-


  27. December 7, 2012 2:53 pm

    Question for readers: How did you find this website in the first place? We know freedomhaha looked for info on Joe D’s bankruptcy, but what about everyone else?

  28. Melanie Morgan permalink
    December 7, 2012 3:21 pm


    I found your site after finding 3 other sites, “Quixtar Cult Intervention”, “Corporate Fraud Watch” and “Juicescam/Lazyman.” which led to many others including yours.

    I am grateful I did! Thanks Amthrax! 🙂

  29. Rascal Teamster permalink
    December 7, 2012 8:52 pm

    I found this site during the 6 months between businesses in the heat of the blog wars. I looked at you all as a bunch of “hiding behind an avatar,” traitor losers, discounted the fact that you had any credibility whatsoever and went forth on merry way for the next 3+ years to help Orrin add some millions to his fortune.

    Then by the grace of God and some really silly moves by my upline Round Table and PC, I “re-found” you…..and damn glad I did. Ya’all saved me….especially Melanie and Raquel who unmasked themselves to the World…..and one particular “Like” to the Facebook page by a another Leading Lady on the Team who once did a showing the plan video with her husband many moons ago (you know who you are, and me and my family thank you for “Liking” a post and God giving me the curiosity to see who might have liked it). Seeing that one “Like”….just one….changed everything.

    Why do you ask such emotion provoking questions that make me feel like a dork, Amthrax? 🙂

  30. December 8, 2012 9:39 am

    AMTHRAX! is a clever title that once you start viewing positive “negative” sites you can’t miss!

    Believe it or not “fast success” in my second MLM is what prompted me onto being an ExAmbot. MLMesque hype & numbers notwithstanding they were not amounting to $$$ for our team yet we were really cranking it. A seed of doubt was planted. I decided HALT, back up, research this MLM thingy.

    While reading voraciously & extensively, hellbent on researching for myself this pretend MLM “industry” (& scAmway, my first MLM, why not), one of these sites (not sure which one) mentioned Amthrax. I thought clever…needs checking out. I hope you don’t mind me mentioning them:-

    The other side of the plan or or or or
    Anna Banana.

    I found information here sans bias presented by a thriving community for readers to each purpose unto thy own self. I read all the posts & comments (yep) on here and that added to the deep bleaching immersion in truth for my three overworked braincells; they were not getting past all the info on lawsuits between diamonds over tools scam $$$. The hiding of this info orchestrated so deviously from Ambot population had a very fouling reek to me. Argh and Arggghhh! I proudly quit the MLM nightmare (I called up my up/down/sidelines, I didn’t fade away as they say). I was free!

  31. December 8, 2012 9:42 am

    I should say I was too proud to just fade away as they, MLM charlatans, like to say.

  32. December 8, 2012 9:47 am

    This site too was/is resourceful too

  33. December 8, 2012 10:45 am

    Indulge me I overlooked to mention these as well, only because they evidence the scam soundly as well,

  34. December 8, 2012 3:18 pm

    Melanie, wisdom and ex-ambot: just approved your posts. They were marked as spam because they contained too many links.

    The LIFE Business, contrary to what it might profess, breeds conformity and uniformity of thought. This is easily seen in the comments and blog posts by its proponents. Search engines are smart in filtering out, or at least lowering in the search rankings, posts that look and sound too similar. It’s arguable that Orrin and company don’t want people to think too much for themselves (see the cancellation of the MFC Challenge Groups as a possible example), as that would ultimately lead their members to sites like these.

  35. Melanie Morgan permalink
    December 9, 2012 8:41 am


    .” I looked at you all as a bunch of “hiding behind an avatar,” traitor losers, discounted the fact that you had any credibility whatsoever”

    Haha! I know crazy isn’t it?.. The “Simon Says” thought stripping environment promotes the “us vs them” cult indoctrination. They say the “internet is like reading the bathroom stalls” and those whistle-blowers are “nameless, faceless, internet-haters, cowards” and many other derogatory (tearing others down)..and they use this undue influence to get others to believe the ONLY “credible” people and information come from them…the gurus..the enlightened PC.

    This seems so obvious and ridiculous now, once a person regains their criticial thinking (step away from the cult)… has decompressed from the cult indoctrination it becomes so glaringly obvious how they keep this perpetuating lies going. They must keep people confused.

    It is the corner stone of their system; it strips others of their critical thinking and their “edification” lifts the PC up to a demi-god status…the followers, follow and repeat without thinking or verifying if anything they say is truth or lies. This could never be underestimated and I believe is the power of thought reform.

    I too would NEVER have looked at the “negative truth” on the internet because of that very reason! They reinforce this constantly….(see the facts on here of their “google-bombing methods!)

    I remember when the “Dateline” episode came out and how Bo Short became Orrin’s (and sure many others).. instant “enemy”. Pretty sad really, but Bo Short and many others are “whistle-blowers,” indeed. Does Orrin give him this credit? Has he written a “blog post”, made a public apology, on how Bo Short, Scott Larsen or even Eric Scheibeler, in fact, were all whistle-blowers or does he and his followers just promote Orrin as such?

    Now Orrin, who claims he is a “hero”… considers himself as a “whislte-blower?!” The spinning never ends…. as Amthrax says; all the others repeat this on their blogs which breeds conformity and uniformity of thoughts.

    Has he sent Scott Larsen, Bo Short and others a public apology,or his hate blog against them? I am really surprised they have not sued Orrin. Has he commended them for being a “whistle-blower”? I remember Orrin was livid and obviously you can see Orrin’s hate towards Bo Short and Scott Larsen by reading Orrins comments on Qrush blog.

    Wonder if there will ever be a day where Orrin admits that Amthrax and all of you are..certainly … “Whistle-blowers?”…Don’t hold your breath…that would be a straight up miracle! 🙂

  36. Melanie Morgan permalink
    December 9, 2012 8:56 am

    Btw~ Amthrax~

    Thank you for your “consistent” efforts…it is no surprise to me why your site is ranked in the top 10 organically… without gaming or Google-bombing! 🙂

  37. I QUIT (and glad I did) permalink
    December 10, 2012 4:44 am

    I found this site one day while I was just sittin killin time surfing. I don’t remember what name I put in the search bar but I ended up here. I thought we were the only ones in our LOS that had bailed. After reading a bit I realized I had found some former team-mates who not only had left but had been totally screwed. Then I saw we weren’t the only ones with the emotional baggage. Thanks to all of you for being here, especially Amthrax, and for validating our decision to QUIT. Yes QUIT Owen! I LOVE saying that! Now we have a LIFE. Not a LIEF.

  38. freedomhaha permalink
    December 10, 2012 6:13 am

    Amthrax- I was looking for Joe’s blog to find some “good information” that I could share with the other cult members when I saw the bankruptcy article below. I quit within the hour when I read about his bankruptcy.

  39. MemoryLame permalink
    March 25, 2013 7:58 pm

    Rascal, ditto on how you found this site, almost verbatim. In fact, did you use the same screen name back in the day before you became a “critic”, because it seems like I remember that name when I was watching the blogs I wasn’t supposed to read. Lol!

    Quixtar/Amway did act like some punks through all that, but I can’t believe sometimes how blind I was to the general dirtbaggery being practiced by Orrin and Chris.

    (Hooded Angry Man was pretty funny at the time though)

    I was already definitely out before I saw the bankruptcies, but was admittedly still torn (like someone with Stockholm syndrome) between feeling sorry for these guys and guilty that I left friends there. When I saw the bankruptcy article though when googling for dissenting views on O and the gang, THAT. Was. It.

    No more sympathy. No more guilt.

  40. Rascal Teamster permalink
    March 26, 2013 6:39 am


    Thanks for the comments. After going through the Desert Experience trying to sell leadership as a product, I was skeptical about LIFE.

    When the system started to cross itself, I started questioning it with my mentor….the same mentor that Joe & Chuck have. Those questions didn’t sit well with said mentor.

    When I questioned him about prior knowledge of Joe’s financial troubles, he point blank said, “no, we never talked about it.” See there was a house plan (see the timeline) within 2 weeks of Joe’s bankruptcy at Joe’s house. I had teammates there. I wanted to know if Mark Paul and Bill Lewis knew about Joe’s issue as they pumped up his character when they did that plan. “Nope, we never knew.”

    IMMEDIATELY, everything in my brain screeched to a half, and the little guy with the red flag (as Brady puts it) ran by in my brain screaming…..”not the leader….not the leader!”

    Two things for thought that hit me like a lightning bolt….

    1) I have many close friends. I know the financial situations of ALL of my good friends….and those of not so close friends. I knew of the financial woes of my teammates that I called friends. Maybe Mark and Joe are not close friends? Maybe it’s an act?

    2) Maybe Mark knew about Joe’s trouble, and he just lied to me?

    See either way, MemoryLame, it boils down to cross talk leadership. It’s just what you put in a post (floored my wife and me) about the leading ladies saying, “be a good wife and follow your husband.” That is unless he’s not building the business. Then you are counseled to, “Go out and build it. Someone’s got to lead.”

    It is laughable now that I see it. Chris Brady’s contact says, “Now you’re going to keep the appointment, right? I’m putting it in my planner, and I never miss a meeting.” BUT…in the contacting How To CDs, he counsels to, “Double book your meetings, as you can always cancel one.”

    They are sooooo good at this cross talk, it has moved into the area of Unconscious Competance. They cross talk without even realizing it. When you listen to groups of CDs by the same leader, you hear it.

    Maybe it’s Claude telling you on stage not to buy tools if you’re not going to use them. And in another CD telling you how many cases of juice and CDs are stored in his basement, “Because buying three cases to get 200 points just makes good business sense.”

    When the business becomes God…an idol….all of this is acceptable.

    Biggest bunch of hypocrites I have ever had the displeasure of partnering with. A 5 1/2 year $25,000 lesson, folks. I pray you learn it less expensively and faster than I did. Blind trust in a man is a very poor master. Question everything internally and take it all to God.

  41. MemoryLame permalink
    March 26, 2013 7:24 am

    Well Rascal, why would you ask your mentor such a negative question? I would be ashamed to go to my mentor with such negativity! Remember though if you have a problem, puke upline not downline! HA!

    So many contradictions! So much crappy, undue guilt. So many lies…

    I think when they said take your problems to your god, er…I mean mentor, what they really meant is your own personal flaws so they can help you put the right spin on them and keep you from blowing their…I mean, your group out. In the end, I saw very little genuine concern for the lives of others. It was there in some of those that according to their pin were “lesser leaders”, but the higher up you went the less you saw it and the message under the message definitely wasn’t about true, Christ-like self sacrificial love for each other, your spouse, or the world around you.

  42. MemoryLame permalink
    March 26, 2013 7:30 am

    For One-on-One Plans

    … Show up on time. Tardiness is a sign of a lack of discipline, disrespect for the other person, or both. Be prompt. Please note, though, that this does not mean be early. You don’t want to appear eager or as if you have nothing better to do than to visit them that evening.

    – Orrin Woodward and Chris Brady, TEAM Builder’s Handbook (Fourth Edition 2009), Page 86

    Nothing says, “love your neighbor as yourself” like making sure they don’t think “you have nothing better to do than to visit them.” God forbid they think that.

  43. Just Came To permalink
    August 11, 2013 9:21 pm

    Rascal Teamster, I was delighted to read your reference to Chris Brady’s cross talk in the area of keeping appointments vs. cancelling them! Remember how he used the term “cognitive dissonance” rather than admitting he was a hypocrite? I have to laugh at the fact that I actually bought into the cross talk of Chris, Orrin Woodward, Claude Hamilton, et al. Wow.

  44. Vogel permalink
    August 12, 2013 1:03 pm

    Rascal Teamster said: “A 5 1/2 year $25,000 lesson, folks. I pray you learn it less expensively and faster than I did.”

    OUCH! Hang on to those receipts my man; thy may come in handy someday if there’s ever a class action lawsuit.

  45. Rascal Teamster permalink
    August 12, 2013 1:38 pm

    Receipts, mileage logs, and tax returns. They pretty much tell the whole story for all of us.

    I knew going in that it was a 2-5 yr plan and that $4-5k a year was a reasonable investment. I just thought I had a chance. I mean I had to have a chance. Mark and Jenn said….armed with only a marker and a First Night Pack, I was going to be the next Dan Hawkins. I mean, they told me they could see it…..

    LOL…how many times did I hear that line vomited?

  46. Freedomhaha permalink
    August 13, 2013 5:42 am

    Rascal Teamster- Oh I was told I reminded them of Tim Marks… hahaha

  47. fastfruit2oo9 permalink
    August 13, 2013 1:46 pm

    I remember the legend of the guy who hiked across CAN to be in ‘the biz’, which was a competiing MLM – but still makes a swell TOD/Team/Tm in Hiding/Tm-Mv / Tm Lie[F] Legendary Business Success Story on What it Takes
    … but in reality – he had nothing better to do and no ca$h to do it with, and a great leader in AW/Q*/Alt-c took the little guy under his wing while gracefully skipping the mega-mind leader’s own sons Grade 12 graduation at top of his class… what a story.
    One of my uplines tried to repeat the same historical event by driving about 250 miles one Summer Holiday and missed time with his adoring wife and kids to try to get some of the leaders to adore his commitment… Time with a GROWing child will NEVER be brought back – you could easily miss ages 3 to 13 in a $5,000/year blink and wake up to teenagers who DO NOT KNOW YOU and do not know how much you OWE. (as stated above – maybe you break even or make some ca$h, but what of the co$t to you friends and family in terms of emotions/regrets/LOSSes that will NEVER come back)….
    But anyhow – give Tm/TOD/Tm-Mv/Team Should Keep Hiding/Tm-Lie[F] a GO!!!

  48. August 14, 2013 9:41 am

    Fastfruits…is this a legend or supposed truth? Claude Hamilton told this story from stage as his personal story. When Claude talked about his upline missing his own son’s graduation so he could build the business, that was when we decided we were out! We were dedicated, loyal followers of the Team for eight years, but I couldn’t stomach this story.

  49. Rascal Teamster permalink
    August 14, 2013 10:08 am

    I remember that story. The Dave Mansey (spelling???) story. Missed his kid’s valedictorian speech to fly out and help Claude. Claude had to win free pieces of pizza at a restaurant just to feed him. Dave did that for years.

    Then Claude repaid him by ditching him and joining Orrin. Thanks Dude!!!

    So how much passive, residual, gonna get it for life, income is Dave making off Claude now. NADA….That folks is how your passive, lifetime income evaporates in the MLM business. I should have been smart and gotten out at that time, too.

  50. noteam permalink
    August 14, 2013 12:38 pm

    Platinum Blond & Rascal – I remember that Claude Hamilton story Claude told it at the famous Major in St. Louis immediately after Haugen, Lance Smith, Mark Crawford, etc pulled out.
    I was horrified. The whole goal of the business is to be a parent to your kids. Yet Claude & Lana were bragging about their upline who missed one of the most important memories for their child. Graduation as a Validictorian.

    And then they repay them by screwing him over and leaving him to join Orrin. In other words, Dave was so loyal to Claude that he missed his own kid’s graduation. Yet Claude & lana were so greedy they left that same best friend over money. How pathetic.

    That was a critical moment in beginning to open my eyes to the true lack of values these scums have.

  51. Rascal Teamster permalink
    August 14, 2013 1:53 pm

    I hate to admit it, but I was in soooo deep at the time of that St. Louis major that I was totally admiring Dave’s commitment to his downline. How pathetic is that? Seriously still makes me shake my head at how brainwashed I was. Try to keep me from my kid’s valedictorian speech today and there will be a gun fight at the “not OK” corral.

    I think that talk was titled, “Toughen up.” I wonder if Dave really told his son on the phone, “I’m sorry that I missed your speech, but Claude and Lana needed me more.” In the talk, Lana said that is what she overheard Dave tell his son. If that’s true, that’s sick. Can’t believe I applauded it.

    These A-Holes will literally convince you that sacrificing moments with your children that you can never get back….like a graduation speech….is worth it for the greater good of the whole Team. If I knew then what I know now…..

    Wow…..seriously….typing that last paragraph was the first time I have allowed myself to actually realize the sacrifice I asked my kids to make. I kind of locked that in a little box and hid it somewhere. Five and a half years. OMG….I’m lucky, my oldest is just starting his second year of high school. I am deeply saddened for any of you who spent your child’s high school years building this wretched “business.”

    LOL….someone talk me in off this ledge…

  52. Melanie Morgan permalink
    August 14, 2013 7:44 pm

    Time WASTED away from our children and family and others on liars who promise residual income……Don’t get me started….HOT, HOT, HOT button!

  53. Freedomhaha permalink
    August 14, 2013 8:06 pm

    All- That is why we are here to help people from wasting precious time like we did.

  54. I QUIT (and glad I did) permalink
    August 16, 2013 8:29 am

    Lets not forget that classic comment, “The only acceptable excuse for missing a major is a funeral. Your own.” Remember that little gem? I NEVER bought into that “logic”. My attitude was if you think I’m gonna miss something as big and important as a graduation as valedictorian for a function, you can kiss my ass. I’m sure thats why I was never totally accepted into the fold of the upper crust of leaders. Whatever- I still had my integrity, just less money. Now I have lots more money! I wonder why….

  55. Melanie Morgan permalink
    August 17, 2013 8:38 am

    I Quit-

    LOL…Hmm.. More money, more time….and truly live your priorities, only happens when you are gone. What a concept….ain’t it great!


    Sometimes I need to be reminded, thanks! 🙂

    Their contradicting/mixed messages are endless!

  56. MinitureGiantSpaceHamster permalink
    August 17, 2013 9:46 am

    I have no children yet, some day I hope to. Time and time again I’ve heard parents say their kids grew in to adults in the blink of an eye. A former boss told me one one of his biggest regrets in life was missing his children grow up. He was a contractor so he was always out working. Another contractor said you don’t realize how tired and exhausted you are after working hard for ten years until you actually stop and take a break. This fellow, his wife would bring their kids to the job just so he could see them.

    The journeyman I worked under had this view, “I work to live, not live to work.” He makes sure he invests time with his kids, they are only young once.

    I’ve worked in the rat race the proponents of LIFE want to save people from. Nothing during my time in LIFE showed me it was any different, in fact I could only seeing it being worse.

    One the biggest influences in my decision to leave LIFE and stay out has been family. I wanted to become closer to my family. Being given the impression I could not tell my own parents what LIFE was about (you know, you got to introduce them with the plan) was hard on my mind. It created unneeded tension. As I said before, my younger brother confronting me with his research on LIFE actually brought me, him and my eldest brother closer together. In the five (has it been that long, or longer all ready?) months since I’ve left we have bonded more and a greater understanding of each other than the entirety of the past ten years.

    For anyone who is in LIFE, I won’t think any less of you if you stay. That said, make sure it is what you want to do. It’s easy to get caught up in the hype of any situation in daily life. Carry on, observe, and make your own judgements. Follow what you believe is true and right, not the collective of TEAM/LIFE or the community of Amthrax.

  57. Rascal Teamster permalink
    August 17, 2013 10:10 am

    Awesome post, Hamster.

    You nailed it!

  58. fastfruit2oo9 permalink
    August 19, 2013 2:23 pm

    Great points!
    My upline ‘family’ made their living as teachers – with summers off like nearly all other teachers. I recall being told by my up line that they actually spent a summer day with their children (who would have been under age 10). LIKE THAT WAS A GREAT DEAL TO SPEND AAAAAAAA day with their children… very very sad to hear that was maybe the one day a year – I do not know. By the time a family gets the unlimitted time – the children are teens and out the door.
    Also, – it would appear the big se7en should have their own ready for College – I trust these folks will lead the young ones to not waste any time going to school to get some silly unneeded grades.


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