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Winter Leadership Conference 2013

January 19, 2013

This thread is to discuss the three 2013 Winter Leadership Conferences happening over the next three two weeks in Louisville, Visalia, and Ottawa.

Here’s a photo from a tweet of the crowd on Friday night at Louisville:

And here’s a photo from the Leadership Meeting held before the opening session on Friday:

TEAM/LIFE members are encouraged to pick up yet more tools from the Tool Room. I wonder how many of these tools are re-packaged old tools from year’s past.

Finally, according to TEAM/LIFE member Joce Dionne, Wayne and Raylene MacNamara have been named Policy Council members:

You can follow more tweets from TheTEAMBiz’s Twitter account here.

Ex-TEAM members; you’ve been to these conventions before in the past. What new things (if anything) will be announced? When did you realize that these conventions were the same thing over and over and over again? What advice would you give to current members in TEAM/LIFE today?

134 Comments leave one →
  1. MemoryLame permalink
    January 19, 2013 11:46 am

    When did I realize it was the same thing over and over again?

    Answer: why does that matter? It wasn’t for me, it was for the new guy! Lol!

    That was the answer I think every one got about that. Reminds me of the old anti-drug commercial where the guy says, “I do coke. So, I can work longer. So, I can make more money. So, I can…do more coke”

    We went seminars to get fired up! So, we would show more plans. So, we would recruit more. So, we would spend more time and money. So we could go to more seminars…

    Sing it if you know it: Sometimes, life’s like chasing rainbows, waiting for a little bluebird in vain…….

  2. Critical thinker permalink
    January 19, 2013 11:59 am

    I think I realized it was the same thing when I bought my 6th revision of the first night pack within my year and a half of being in team. Also when I realized it was always the same people going except a handful of new people. Also only 15% of the tools were new. Orrin always had a new trick up his sleeve. Like the 13 resolutions book. I didn’t even need to read it because most of his talks from the time life was announced to the time it actually launched we’re word for word excerpts from his book. And within the last 2 majors I went through I already bought the book once at the life launch, one in the MFC, and twice through system. Makes me wonder how launching a leadership revolution made it on any best sellers list.

  3. Fed up permalink
    January 19, 2013 12:30 pm

    In the first picture, was that a sellout crowd or sold out crowd? Notice the pun. Anyways, these things aren’t very crowded these days…

  4. Rascal Teamster permalink
    January 19, 2013 1:19 pm

    It’s always the same. It’s supposed to be the same. They sell the sameness very well. It’s all part if the duplicatable system. If it were different all the time, it wouldn’t be a duplicatable system, would it?

    Yes, we all knew it was the same and expected it to be.

    They’ve increased to 3 majors this time? Must be the group is getting smaller. They will tell the largest group, “there are two others groups this size meeting elsewhere.” They will tell the other two that there are two larger groups meeting. It’s always the same sell.

    Fact is, the more majors they have, the harder it becomes for members to see the real numbers.

    The similarities between the way the Team works and the way the Federal Reserve and Federal Govt work are uncanny, aren’t they?

  5. MemoryLame permalink
    January 19, 2013 1:33 pm

    Raquel, you’re dead on about the multiple major locations. They played that game a few times didn’t they?

    “The team is so huge we have to meet in multiple locations!”

    “The team is so huge, we decide that we need to get the whole group in one place!”

  6. NEVER gonna get us! permalink
    January 19, 2013 2:46 pm

    I can’t say how glad I am to find this site. A friend of mine got suckered into this business about 2 years ago and now he’s been really pestering my husband and I to join. Went to a couple meetings for an explanation of the business, they came to our house once, even went to an open meeting recently. Still wasn’t sure, something didn’t feel right, didn’t see how we could possibly sell these products and make the money they claimed we could. I frankly found the whole compensation and such just so confusing. He gave us a few CDs to listen to, mainly stuff on finances since we really wanted to get extra bills paid off. And books. I have to say I found it all hard to listen to, just couldn’t read it. Couldn’t explain why, but the whole thing seemed wrong. Hubby almost got himself hooked and was getting FIRED UP to join until I told him of my uneasiness. We still agreed to hear my friend out and go to an open meeting. After, I started to do research and found out a lot of interesting (to say the least) things about TEAM/LIFE/MONAVIE. Thank you!!!! I am glad I did the research and we are lucky enough to never have joined-and NEVER WILL!! I just wish my friend had done the same. I just hope him and his family wake up soon as I have seen now how they’re being brainwashed. It is SO scary how cult-like that community really is! That open meeting we attended made me feel really scuzzy that night and for some reason when I looked around the room I felt so much sadness for the people in that room that night. Now I know why I felt what I did.

  7. Freedomhaha permalink
    January 19, 2013 5:54 pm

    It is just too ironic that this major is in Freedom Hall when all TEAM LieF does is keep you in bondage.

  8. No Team For Me permalink
    January 19, 2013 8:13 pm

    What time of night was that picture taken. There sure seems to be A LOT of empty seats on that lower left side of the picture. Also, how far is the stage moved out this time? Sure looks like less people to me. I remember when that arena was so full the fire marshalls literally blocked the doors and made everyone else to into an overflow convention hall across the campus.

  9. January 19, 2013 9:16 pm

    @NoTeamForMe – The photo was taken during the Friday night session. The tweet was sent out at 6:32 pm in Louisville. The crowd does look a bit smaller than usual, probably due to the change in location.

    @MemoryLame – Your quote was great. Made me laugh, because I can see the Policy Council saying these exact quotes.

    “The team is so huge we have to meet in multiple locations!”

    “The team is so huge, we decide that we need to get the whole group in one place!”

  10. Chris permalink
    January 19, 2013 11:18 pm

    Great posts…I went to 4 majors..there mostly all the same. Some tweaks here and there some different stories. What gets me is some teamsters on Facebook posts quotes from different speakers. The lines aren’t even that good and are only relatable to people on team. I love it when they post about quitting. ? How does that promote a business? If the business is that good a deal why would u want to quit? I quit, because of a lot of reasons and the.major was one of them. Money for travel, hotels, the major and to buy more tools and to see the same thing more or less and convince u not to quit. Peer pressure! To keep u in….it’s that simple…I’ll say it again thanks to Chris Brady…I have the right to be my own self and be who God made me to be, and Im not in team anymore..I guess that makes me a rascal! I don’t intend to run with the herd and fall off the cliff!

  11. freedomhaha permalink
    January 20, 2013 11:17 am

    Never gonna get us and Chris – Thanks for reminding me that the time that people spend on here directly translates to lives being saved.

  12. freedomhaha permalink
    January 20, 2013 11:27 am

    TEAM could prove they are growing by using bigger venues than they used 6 years ago. Just saying.

  13. MemoryLame permalink
    January 20, 2013 11:48 am

    I’m thankful today. Thankful that

    1) I’m home with my family today, not hundreds of miles away thinking of them.
    2) I went to a real church today, where people taught the Word of God for NO OTHER AGENDA than to lead people to Christ.
    3) If I don’t agree with my preacher or another teacher in my church, no one compares them to Christ – even remotely – or tells me I’m “being negative” or just “a critic.” Instead we call that a part of sharpening one another.
    4) I can cross-line with anyone and not be criticized.
    5) If someone I love dies, my friends and mentors actually come to the funeral or send me a card, because their team is not too big for that.
    6) I work in a job where people can’t hide behind arbitration if they suddenly stop paying me or others without cause, and they are open enough to send me copies of everything I need to sign up front.
    7) No person in my life (including myself) is allowed to be untouchable from criticism from me or other people. I edify people’s character when I know them personally, not before. Otherwise it’s flattery, which only builds ego not strength of character.
    8) REAL is not always positive or negative. In fact, the balance of those two LITERALLY keeps every atom in the universe together, so maybe God uses both.
    9) A God that can part a sea, make the lame walk, and pull taxes from a fishes mouth can do as much with the income from my job as He can from some Diamond/PC paycheck. I don’t have to delay the gratification of witnessing God work with my five loaves and fishes.
    10) My “war” is not with this world, or the media, or the politicians I don’t agree with – no matter how much I think it is at times. My children’s life and world will be better if I teach them to understand that this world is not our final destination.
    11) I can still set goals and make plans, but I can confidently and peacefully say, “if The Lord wills it.” Because I know that GOD DOES NOT HONOR COMMITMENT TO ANYTHING IN ADDITION TO OR OTHER THAN HIM.

  14. January 20, 2013 12:22 pm



    Anything that is valuable (eg., money, diamonds, etc) is often counterfeited. The same is true of christianity. Since it is true, it too is counterfeited with false religion, exactly like what we see in Team. It’s great to be free from the bondage of this cult, and yet even better to be free in Christ. Many throw the baby out with the bath water when rejecting team and it’s counterfeit christianity. Sad..

  15. TruthSeeker permalink
    January 20, 2013 12:46 pm

    @Memory Lame, great comments and spot on.

  16. freedomhaha permalink
    January 20, 2013 2:47 pm

    MemoryLane- Thank you and God Bless!

  17. Renee permalink
    January 20, 2013 3:40 pm

    Been trying to stay low key on this whole deal because it causes a lot of added stress on our family. Husband finally started counseling with me but we have long way to go. Anyway I’m posting today because I tried to be nice & listen to marriage cd husband had in car. Fortunately I was alone in car because I started yelling at the radio as if I were listening to a football game with bad calls. I got as far as the guy saying how he used to just mentor men but he started to realize the man would always go back & listen to his wife. He couldn’t figure out why, but then he realized that they spent more time together & she could give him special favors that he couldn’t! That set me over the edge. I didn’t find it funny I felt as if I was being called a ho. I couldn’t take it after that & turned it off. Husband is going in at a slow pace he’s made $8 but doesn’t see he’s lost almost $100. His “friend” on the other hand jumped in feet first & is going to seminars & everything. I hope to sit back & watch as they sink farther into debt. He already has money issues from what I understand but they’re recruiting all the guys at work. I have asked for our weekends to be respected & so far he has not done so. If it continues he will hear from me & if he still doesn’t respect our weekends I will be more than happy to disrespect him. Thanks for listening & hopefully he gets out soon. I’m sure “friend” will keep scouring the Internet & find things that are negative so he can continue to get mad but that’s ok keep trying to screw my husband because I already completed step 1 & that’s agreeing to counseling!! I’m sure “friend” doesn’t commend counseling because husband wouldn’t agree as long as they were together.

  18. NEVER gonna get us! permalink
    January 20, 2013 5:45 pm

    A couple things that stood out were the facts that they talked all religious and thanking God and saying how they’re all blessed but never once did they pray. They opened the meeting and told everyone to take notes so no one would miss anything important. My friend offered us a pen and notepad but we declined. I noticed they had one for themselves but they never wrote anything down. I could see why. It was just the same crap we heard before at other times they pitched to us.

    They kept saying that if you’re skeptical about joining to not even think about and just do it. TEAM/LIFE works and you dont want to be like all the other losers and quitters out there. Those people are suckers.

    Everyone was dressed up so fancy but never did anyone say if they were making money except the speaker who implied he was. I don’t remember his name but he used to be some big contractor that was over $700,00 in debt but when he joined TEAM/LIFE it turned his life around and he is now “living the dream”. If he really is living big then I thought it was quite strange that he was on the road already again making speeches when he said he just had surgery 4 weeks before. And he had about another 4 to go but he was so “fired up” and eager to get out there helping people again.

  19. NEVER gonna get us! permalink
    January 20, 2013 6:08 pm

    My friend and his wife actually went to this conference in Kentucky this weekend. I’m sure his Facebook will be full of even more annoying quotes and pics from the leaders.

    A couple weeks ago they contacted us to tell us someone else was joining and wanted to know if we wanted in since we had first dibs. We declined saying we wanted to get a few extra bills paid off before we considered any business ventures. Maybe ask again in a few months. They called us yesterday from the conference saying there was someone ELSE interested in joining and were just calling to let us know. Didn’t really give us an opportunity to reply, but i dont know if i should give him an answer over the phone. They are actually supposed to come over to our house this weekend just to “hang out” but I know they’re going to ask us again to join.

    Don’t get me wrong we really like them and would like to continue spending time with them with what little bit of time they can manage to spend with us, but I don’t want to continue being badgered about the business. We dont want them to blow us off for good. We are planning to tell them flat out we don’t want to join but we haven’t decided exactly on what to tell them. The whole we’re not ready right now try back later isn’t working since they still manage to ask almost every week since.

    How do you tell someone they are involved in something bad? When they obviously can’t see it? Should we even tell them at this point?

  20. MemoryLame permalink
    January 20, 2013 6:57 pm


    This is a hard question, and one I think we are all still trying to figure out. In fact, I would wager that the reason most of us use pseudonyms here, is because we have people that we love that are still trapped and the more we try to tell them these things the more they push us away.

    They are going to be told that we are all “strangers” who don’t know Orrin and Chris. They are going to be “encouraged” to feel offended that you would choose to believe any of the stories here rather than trust them.

    Truthfully, you could ask whose RESULTS are they trusting though? A total stranger’s? Is that stranger going to show them their OWN business balance sheet? I can assure you 100% that if anyone presses to get an answer to that question they will be met with a run around defense that goes something like “why do you care so much about the money? Why are YOU so greedy? Lives are being changed here! Marriages saved! Televisions are being turned off! Books are being read!”….

    Wait, do you see what just happened – did you feel that twinge of guilt?

    That’s how it will play out. I promise you. And THAT, is the subtle manipulation that your friends were inundated with this weekend.

    They don’t know that the real answer to that question from the vast majority of their leaders is, “I don’t keep a balance sheet, because I got the message from someone important (on a cd, or at a seminar, or in a mentor session – they won’t really even remember where) that everything would work out SOME DAY so long as they don’t quit.

    The best advice I could offer is to get your questions ready. Use the 50 Questions article on this site, and stick to it until you get a clear answer. Don’t get mad or emotional, and let them save as much face as possible without agreeing with them so they won’t be too embarrassed to come back to you when they quit. Be prepared for them to isolate themselves from you for a while. You telling them ” no” is more painful for them than you think and they will think about it more often than you can imagine. They may even try to throw their heart into this for a while to prove to YOU they have results. Keep in mind that they do so because they care and they’re so convinced that this their big break that they truly want to share it with you.

    In the end it will break them financially and they will likely struggle a lot, so as a friend, YOU have to hold on to hope for them and be ready to remind them that there is hope when they get out. The good news is that there is a 95%+ chance that they WILL get out, no matter what you do 🙂

    That’s just my 2 cents though. Others may have more to add.

  21. January 20, 2013 10:22 pm

    What are people’s take on MacNamara being named Policy Council member? Will they last as long as Chris and Danae Mattie from a few years back? People may recall they were announced PC members… and then just as suddenly, they weren’t.

  22. Melanie Morgan permalink
    January 20, 2013 10:49 pm

    I now know and have learned way to much to believe any organically…or legitimately…make it at least I certainly don’t believe they will sustain it. I personally will never trust anything they say.

    Good luck to the MacNamaras, they know if they did or not. Time will tell.

  23. Melanie Morgan permalink
    January 20, 2013 10:51 pm

    Never gonna get us!

    You are very wise, thank you for sharing! 🙂

  24. Melanie Morgan permalink
    January 20, 2013 11:09 pm

    Many, many empty seats. Orrin could be transparent and honest and stop the embellished misleading “numbers” they all hear and then repeat from these majors, with the simple facts…this would show just how much they have “grown”…how bout a chart and graph for all the major’s since LIEf began? I have seen through out the Team and obviously the supposed leaders aren’t even in agreement on the “numbers” …and they are not even close. One will say 20,000 and another will say 10,000! BIG different!

    But the followers just pick a number and brag about it as much as they do their gamed guru titles.

  25. Melanie Morgan permalink
    January 20, 2013 11:12 pm

    The Team Office knows EXACTLY how many tickets are sold…why are they so one sided..all the time? 🙂

  26. January 21, 2013 5:07 am

    I can’t tell for sure, but in the first picture from Friday night (at the general session), is that the stage in the lower right corner? If so, then there are about 3 (4 at the most) seating sections visible in front of the stage. Comparing that to a seating chart of Freedom Hall, that would put the stage at approximately half-court.

  27. Critical thinker permalink
    January 21, 2013 5:09 am

    Anthrax- I remember at major after Chris Mattis was pc, I asked 2 of my upline who have been in the business for over 8 years why he was not over anymore. Tgey both said he never was PC, he was announced triple 100 last major. I think they were covering something up. Raquel I’m sorry I don’t own any team CDs anymore.i know that in his talks he would read a couple pages out of his book and then explain further on that subject. His cd based on his finance chapter was 80% word for word read from his book

  28. NEVER gonna get us! permalink
    January 21, 2013 7:14 am

    My friend who went said there were over 10,000 people at the Kentucky conference this last weekend. He also mentioned the couple that made PC.

  29. Rascal Teamster permalink
    January 21, 2013 8:25 am

    Freedom hall seats just over 19,000 for concerts, but I remember the overflow show. Thought they said 20,000 were present as well… 12.5k in the main hall and 7.5k in the overflow.

    Can’t say the group is half 2007, Raquel. Three venues this time. 2007, KY was the only one unless I’m mistaken.

    My best guess is that there wasn’t even 10,000 there this time around and that the Team is less than 20k at events.

  30. Rascal Teamster permalink
    January 21, 2013 8:34 am

    Regarding the MacNamaras making PC….

    I was always of the assumption….seems like I’ve heard this somewhere….that when Monavie broke a Black Diamond, there would be 3 Blue Diamonds, 9 Diamonds, 15 Rubies, etc…..all the way on down the line. Seems to grow organically that way.

    Where is all the recognition of the lower ranks underneath Wayne & Raylene hitting new levels? Twitter and the blogs have been dead silent on this. Unless I missed it, it appears that they did it all by themselves without breaking any new pins.

    I was totally shocked by this announcement, as I haven’t heard anything coming out of Kaizen that would indicate they were about to break a PC. With all the negative out there, why wouldn’t they have been shouting this one from the rooftops?

    Anyone else feeling me on this one?

  31. January 21, 2013 10:32 am

    @Renee – Thanks for the update. Make sure your husband keeps track of his income and expenses each month.

  32. ItsaPauling permalink
    January 21, 2013 10:45 am

    Complete agreement Rascal, Where is all the recognition for the “people you helped” along the way?

  33. January 21, 2013 10:55 am

    @Critical Thinking – You should have shown your 2 uplines this tweet from Dan Hawkins, made on October 22, 2011:

  34. Melanie Morgan permalink
    January 21, 2013 11:27 am

    Rascal I agree also. Don’t they need 6 teams @ 15,000 points to become a PC?…so similar to Amway/Quixtar you needed 6 @ 7500, I believe their “model” is just like Amway, with different trendy names and a few other tweaks.

    I know nothing about this ‘new’ PC couple or who are there “leaders” their “leaders should be getting plenty of recognition.. the “recognition” from the MacNamara’s and their “movin-on”..”kickin-butt” leaders should have been and at this major…. dominated by this group…that is IF it is legit.

  35. MemoryLame permalink
    January 21, 2013 11:37 am

    Amthrax, your research is so stinkin’ awesome! That’s why this site is the BEST resource for someone trying to clear their head on all this!

  36. Critical thinker permalink
    January 21, 2013 12:27 pm

    I bet the 10,000 people where how many tickets were sold, not the people attending that location.

  37. Rascal Teamster permalink
    January 21, 2013 1:08 pm


    I’m not sure about 6 teams at 15,000pv. PV and points is LIFE recognition. PC is still a Team recognition.

    6 months ago, it was still 4 teams at 50 systems and 100 tickets, and two teams of 25 systems and 50 tickets.

    PC is still a Team pin…..not LIEF. Explain that to the new guy…..

  38. Rascal Teamster permalink
    January 21, 2013 1:17 pm

    Hey….any former big Team pins,

    How many Round Tables would one have to have to break between RT and PC in order to go PC? How many triple 100s and Turbo 25s? How many new directors?

    Does it seem out of character for Orrin to not tout all that growth and publicly praise those people that helped Wayne and Raylene into the inner bowels of the Team? This is just weird!

  39. Melanie Morgan permalink
    January 21, 2013 1:21 pm

    Critical thinker~

    You are right many leaders “buy” many xtra tickets to reach their sometimes unrealistic turbo goals and then are stuck with those plus many others who may back out at the last minute (because there is a no return on tickets or it was that way when we were in) I have heard about many tickets that never were sold to a real person. They aren’t fooling anyone, especially their downline who KNOW they do not have that in their groups!

    These supposed Big “exploding” leaders…the same thing they fake their system counts by claiming their kids, even fictitious or people that told their downline who STP and the prospect told them no not now but maybe in the future I will get on system…they would count it!

    This is extremely misleading and deceptive, especially when you find out it was people that were repeatedly recognition for some major PP recognition and other recognition!

    It is all a deceptive game to keep others believing. They know who they are and what they have done and continue to do. They can lie to themselves and pretend all they want but in the end they will answer for it. They aren’t hiding from anyone else their downlines know.

  40. Melanie Morgan permalink
    January 21, 2013 1:32 pm


    Thanks yes! They would then at least have to have 4 different teams a team 100 and 2 other teams @ team 50, that is a PERFECT scenerio and we KNOW that never happens!

    Do you know when they were last recognized for Triple 100 or what was their last major recognition on their way to PC?

    If I had to guess and there is no “exploding” promotion in their groups and then poof they are PC…Umm not going to happen.

    They were either given or “inherited” someone else’s teams that quit…you don’t go PC just like that, they would have had to have some serious recognition (depending on when they went triple or quad). Most followers wont use their common sense, but I bet ya there are some leaders questioning this if they haven’t had a bunch of accolades the last 6 months or more.

  41. Rascal Teamster permalink
    January 21, 2013 1:41 pm

    I’m not sure on quad or triple, but something’s nagging on me that I saw them recognized as quad 100 before I left after summer major last year.

    I suppose they could bring two teams to 50 tickets and hold the others at 100 for the past 6 months, but I haven’t seen that growth since Q…..not counting Dan’s bogus run

    It’s the systems that throw this. System counts fell off the map when they started incorporating more of the Team stuff into Life. My system numbers dropped by over half.

  42. Melanie Morgan permalink
    January 21, 2013 3:33 pm


    I would have a hard time believing they are holding anything. 🙂 You have to have some kick butt leaders in a number of teams…No-0ne is that good to be in all those legs…they need leader..upon leader, upon leader, upon leader, upon leader, upon….to continue to grow…and definitely some serious builders…or they aren’t holding anything and wouldn’t being gaining in numbers. Otherwise, I think there is some serious buying going on.

    We also know they if someone was kicking butt and growing to that level they would be held up as a Rock Star and everyone would be “hearing about it.” I really haven’t seen anyone bragging about anyone since the gal (not her husband) quit her job “retired” on the Hawkins team.

    I don’t believe the attrition rate is any different in LIEf than it is in any other MLM… quite atrocious… (especially with all the facts and stories on the internet), it is a build and replace period. Always has been..Just because they “changed the name”…means nothing..They are no different.

  43. Melanie Morgan permalink
    January 21, 2013 3:40 pm

    They could have “stretched” and have a very flimsy business that won’t last and time will prove that, but does it matter? Once you hit PC are you “always” called a PC? They NEVER tell the WHOLE story…they are so one-sided.:D

  44. Melanie Morgan permalink
    January 21, 2013 3:44 pm

    I seriously wonder what the WHOLE or “rest of the story is” on ALL the PC. I heard Tim Marks bought at least one team in Quixtar for Diamond….what about the others. How did they really hit Diamond/PC?

    I never even knew you could “buy” legs to go Diamond, when we were in! That certainly shuts down the BS…EARN IT!

  45. freedomhaha permalink
    January 22, 2013 6:43 am

    Joe D was also an Ex PC member. Absolutely zero transparency in this business.

  46. switch permalink
    January 22, 2013 8:52 am

    Melanie said-
    “Always has been..Just because they “changed the name”…means nothing..They are no different.”

    Do they still rock out to this corny song?….Geez team….I sure hope not. If you get past the first 10 seconds or so it’s definitely entertaining. (take a look at the dude at approximately :18…he’s got mona vie written all over him.)

    crank it gang!

  47. Melanie Morgan permalink
    January 22, 2013 9:29 am


    You are hilarious…Hahahahaha!

  48. MemoryLame permalink
    January 22, 2013 10:53 am

    Also, what happened to the ranks of VanBuskirk, Paul, Martin, Stroh, Huber, Steve Morgan, Birtles, Freeze, Cullen (both brothers), Zimmerman, Abraham (both brothers), Spiewak, Haas, Rau, Foos, Palomaki, Zentner, Raatz, Edwards, Frey, Mark Darkangelo, Laura Darkangelo’s brother (can’t remember his name), Yurgo, the Jones brothers, Gowen, McGuire, Kircher, Barrett, Radosa, Granger, Spolar, Libby, Wallentine, Reed, Sims, etc, etc,

    Most of these were Sapphire and above when I joined. They were ALL “movin on up lines.” Many of them are long gone now and almost none that are left remain at those levels, and the new guy will certainly never hear their names.

    We were there the night Stroh, Lewis, and Guzzardo went Diamond/PC, there were new Pins breaking all over the place, but since most of those are gone now, I suppose it doesn’t matter anyway.

    @New Guy checking this out, why don’t you ask your up line who those people are and see what they can tell you. 🙂

  49. MemoryLame permalink
    January 22, 2013 10:57 am

    Switch! For real that was awesome! Everybody walk and wave!

  50. January 22, 2013 11:01 am

    Here is a panorama photo from the conference (from a tweet by a first-time conference attendee):

  51. MemoryLame permalink
    January 22, 2013 11:16 am

    Looks like maybe 7-8000 people – max.

  52. January 22, 2013 11:48 am

    Granted, they are having conferences in Visalia, CA and Ottawa, Canada this weekend. The Ottawa is a new conference, so maybe members from up north didn’t come down to fill up the Freedom Hall?

  53. Rascal Teamster permalink
    January 22, 2013 12:03 pm

    Not so fast, Amthrax, ya dream stealer.

    Kaizen just crowned a new PC in KY. Many we’re in Louisville that won’t double major. I say this is easily two to three times larger than any other venue.

    Way less than 10,000 here the way it’s laid out.

  54. MemoryLame permalink
    January 22, 2013 12:23 pm

    Agreed Rascal. Does anyone know which venues they are booked at for the other two?

  55. January 22, 2013 12:34 pm

    @MemoryLame – Here is information about the venues in Visalia and Ottawa this week:

    Visalia Convention Center
    303 E. Acequia
    Visalia, CA 93291

    CE Centre
    4899 Uplands Drive
    Ottawa, ON K1V 2N6

    Source is the Featured Speakers Page on the TEAM website:

  56. freedomhaha permalink
    January 22, 2013 1:05 pm

    Must be embarrassing when people that make CDs leave the business.

  57. littledufflebagboy permalink
    January 22, 2013 1:44 pm

    anyone else have bad flashbacks when u hear those songs they would play at the seminars? lol i do, it makes me want to go drink lol

  58. Melanie Morgan permalink
    January 22, 2013 2:40 pm


    Uh huh….Not am I embarrassed, I am ashamed and regret to ever have been apart of these friendship fakers.

  59. Melanie Morgan permalink
    January 22, 2013 2:48 pm


    Hahaha! Many things give you bad flashbacks even some nightmares,….

    What about the major culture shock from isolating yourself and you’re thrust back into the real world…

    Bad, Bad, Bad..T.V., Bosses, Government, Jobs, leadership quotes (biggie), other MLM and their leaders (they once were their hero’s and now their enemies), “self-help”…the word…”life coaches”..other real leadership books and for gods sake any other book not in their system for that matter, (bad, bad library),…I hadn’t been to a library in 13 years because of these negative people…holy crap..your family,friends, brothers, sisters, mother, fathers, cousins, aunts & uncles you neglected for years! That you regret even thinking just because they weren’t stupid enough to be duped there must be something wrong with them!

    Their whole world view is twisted and they like it that way!

    [Editor’s note: changed were to weren’t to correct intent]

  60. Melanie Morgan permalink
    January 22, 2013 2:58 pm

    They are not genuine in most cases, but it makes them “feel” important, and even if they don’t believe what they say (a lot of it they don’t or at least they don’t practice so therefore, they don’t believe it)., and of course the $$$$, to them anyway is worth bashing everything in the outside real world and pushing their twisted garbage on.

    Their motivation for their self-induced cognitive dissonance?…They get paid multi- millions to fake it; that motivation keep themselves on their power trips.


  61. Melanie Morgan permalink
    January 22, 2013 3:05 pm

    Their cult-like indoctrination create all these negative flash-backs. What about the negative effect they created in people’s spiritual lives or what they have done to churches and Pastors?…

  62. Melanie Morgan permalink
    January 22, 2013 3:21 pm

    Memory Lame~

    Your comments @ Jan 20 11:48…Well said!! And when you stop listening to them and listen to God and your own gut, re-gain your critical thinking.. it’s amazing when you snap out of it and can see how bizarre they seem with their fantasy worldview. If anyone tries that hard to play God in your life and control your every move, thoughts and beliefs…run,and run as far and fast as you can from them!

    Thank You, I have missed a bunch of comments and just scrolled up, I thought I had read these comments but I have missed many apparently. To all…thanks!

  63. MemoryLame permalink
    January 22, 2013 6:06 pm

    Thanks, Melanie.

    One of the books I read that first started to draw me out of this was The Pursuit of God by A.W.Tozer. In it, he talks about idolism and how for Christians idolism does not typically come in the form of “instead of God” instead it usually begins with “God AND…”

    Fill in the blank – God AND country, God AND political party, God AND financial freedom, God AND preacher, God AND Team…

    Whatever comes after the “AND” becomes our stumbling block. Team members are well versed in the guilt trip of what you need to add. If you think about it, it’s very Pharissee-like. “Strain out the gnat, but swallow the camel…”

    Ironically, I’ll admit that my personal political and religious persuasion have been similar to what they preach in public. Also, I only saw the blatant hypocrisy from a few lesser leaders than Orrin & Chris. However, as the fog cleared I realized that the fallacy is IN the SYSTEM itself. It creates a world of “edification without interrogation” and simple minded dreaming of some future utopia on earth for the individual and everyone they love. They become so convinced this is the only way, truth, and L.I.F.E. …scary.

    At first I thought it was only the people I knew, but after reading stories here and putting a few things in perspective I realize that the buck stops with the guys at the top. No one is exempt from responsibility, but O & C and the others need to be as quick to put this “hero worship” in check as Paul and Barnabas were in Acts when people did this type thing without them asking. They tore their clothes and mourned, and certainly did not attempt to turn a profit on it. The fact that they don’t stop this foolishness, tells you where their heart really is.

    Their fruit is to produce either those that want to sever all ties with them because of their lack of response to criticism or those that are sinking deeper and deeper into the same deceptive idolism.

  64. freedomhaha permalink
    January 22, 2013 7:23 pm

    MemoryLame- O&C would have TEAM T-shirts available for sale as they did a massive clothes tearing where they charged $150 to get in!

  65. No Team For Me permalink
    January 22, 2013 9:10 pm

    Depending on what time that picture was taken by Eric Nelson, numbers were wayyyyyy down. The entire upper level is totally empty, The mid-level is mostly empty (and this level used to always be entirely full. There are even huge empty chunks of seats in the lower section and even some on the floor.
    That picture is embarrassing!!! I’d be very surprised if there was much over 5,000 people based on that picture.

  66. No Team For Me permalink
    January 22, 2013 9:17 pm

    As a matter of fact, do the math. Freedom Arena only holds around 50 people per row on the floor depending on the aisle space. It’s hard to tell how much empty space is in the back of the floor before the lower level starts, but normally, they leave a pretty big gap. I could be wrong, but it only looks like there are 20 or so rows which would make 1,000 total people on the floor, with every seat taken.

    Now, take a mental note of how much space the floor takes up and imagine that same space on the left side of the stage (both lower and mid level seats). Then subtract all the empty seats -of which there are many.

    Repeat the process for the back of the arena and the right side. There might actually only be around 4,000 people at this one.

    although, this depends on if this picture was taken during a break when everyone was at dinner. If not, this had to be embarrassing for all the PC’s & RT’s. Kinda hard to claim there’s growth in an empty arena.

  67. Critical thinker permalink
    January 23, 2013 5:46 am

    Hearing anything played at a team function makes me sick too. It’s hard watching movies when you hear crap that they played at a function

  68. January 23, 2013 11:45 am

    Yikes that’s bad! In fact ditto your comments @littledufflebagboy January 22, 2013 2:48 pm

    “What about the major culture shock from isolating yourself and you’re thrust back into the real world…”

    Yep ditto that…

  69. Melanie Morgan permalink
    January 23, 2013 7:23 pm

    Memory Lame~

    Incredible post, I love your posts and your perspective. You nailed it!

  70. NEVER gonna get us! permalink
    January 25, 2013 1:02 pm

    Well wish us luck when my friend and his wife come over this weekend to try and sucker us in the “business.” He said now they simplified things even more so its even EASISER YET to earn money and a lot faster at that. We’re really hoping theyll respect our firm answer of “no thank you” but just in case me and my husband are going through the 50+ questions tonight and doing a kind of rehearsal of what we’re going to say. I have actually asked my friend very recently how much they’re making with TEAM/LIFE after being in for over 2 years and they sheepishly replied somewhere around $100. (WHAT?!) I then asked them if that was NOT including the monthly price of membership and such and they said no but it takes time and money to build a successful business. The business is just a baby yet and needs time to grow. (PUKE) I can only hope that got them thinking a little, if only a tiny bit. Does anyone have any last suggestions or advice for us before Sunday?

    Oh yeah, and we read that sling, squeeze and side action also. That was so ridiculously right on to what they’re tryin to do to us. I think the script on there is pretty much word for word from all the things we’ve heard from them! Thanks again

  71. Rascal Teamster permalink
    January 25, 2013 1:38 pm

    @Never gonna get us,

    Quite honestly, they are making less than $100 before costs 2 years into the 2-5 yr plan. That means, they are still losing money after two years and asking you to follow the same duplicatable plan.

    What needs to be said more than that? Just say no you can’t afford to wait that long.

    But if you need to, Ask them how much they just spent going to the major. I could never do it for less than $500. That’s 5 months at their current income, but they go to majors every 4 months now. Sounds like they are going backwards big time.

    Ask them what their exit strategy is? MLM’ers hate that question, but every business owner has to have one if things get too bad. I have one with my retail stores. But for some reason, I blew that one when it came to team. Cause if I had one…like every good businessman worth following, I’d have left at the two year mark….right where your friends are. I had their same results at two years. Still owned the same results when I left 3.5 yrs later too.

    Ask them at what point if it keeps losing money, do they plan on quitting? If they say something stupid like, “I’d never quit this,” run like hell…….sadly they aren’t good business partners.

    It’s nothing personal. It’s just business. Good luck and thanks for contributing here.

  72. Former Round Table permalink
    January 25, 2013 1:53 pm

    Amen Rascal, I could not have said it better. When you begin to build or you purchase a REAL business, you should always put together a Business Plan. A good business plan considers realistic revenue projections, an analysis of the current and future “market” for your products, a thorough analysis of the competition and how you are different, a projection of expenses, and sources of capital (the cash needed to pay expenses until the time when revenues are enough). One of the most important parts of the Business Plan is your exit strategy!! You should NEVER enter any business without a clear plan for when to call it quits in the case that your hopes and projections do not materialize.

    Life/Team has claimed to be a legitimate business opportunity for years, but they discourage people from doing any kind of “due diligence” when considering the “business.” There is only one reason why they don’t want anyone to think about these things: the “business” is NOT a business, it’s a scam.

  73. MemoryLame permalink
    January 25, 2013 2:01 pm

    Rascal & FRT – yes & yes!!

    Ask them for a balance sheet. What’s that? They don’t keep one?

    Oh, maybe their up line has one then.

    No? What? Their “mentor” to a million bucks never taught them to do that?

    When I got a REAL business mentor, what do you think the first thing he wanted me to do was?

  74. January 25, 2013 5:03 pm

    @NEVER gonna get us!

    Ha ha you should have fun with this session. What’s your address?

    A couple of ground rules:-
    Your friend may come with a buddy and not without a cunning & carefully crafted reason: that you will listen and respect his buddy than you will him. To accomplish that this buddy has or will be presented as successful in this venture.

    Secondly the buddy has more experience than your friend in what they call “overcoming objections.” This overcoming objections is a strategy to extract your reasons for not enrolling, give attention to a select few ones of their choosing in what they call handling objections, in order to allay your fears and mainly well … overcome your objections and get you enrolled!

    -You are dealing with cult minds. It’s hard to convince them of anything other than what they have chosen.
    -the business questions are fantastic. They just might start to poke your friend’s brain to wake up, after 2 years of this without the success he had envisioned he might be there or close.
    -Wear this attitude “you don’t need them, they need you, and again that was you don’t need them.”
    -it’s your castle/your time so,
    -You control everything from the time they are to show up, duration and when to end it. Shake hands quickly, tell them (don’t ask) let’s get started, lead them where to sit, at the kitchen or dining table, on your way there and only then turn the TV off, sit then state what do you have. This is what MLMbots do to project their perceived power over you, the prospect in a process called “posture.” You exercise posture over them.
    -Look out for led decision tactic. They lead you where they want you to go but the tactic is designed to make you think you are making the decision. They go like this “we can meet on Friday or Saturday which is better for you?” Notice no one asked you if you want to meet.

  75. January 25, 2013 5:06 pm

    My piece for you would be as MLMbots like to say KISS-keep it simple stupid.

    Do not be drawn or pulled into their craftiness if you will, nor engage with them, about your reasons for declining, especially what you read on this blog. Do not give them any reason. End the session within a your pre-determined duration.

    With a convicted voice of courage simply state with an “ending the meeting attitude” thus, *you have no interest at this time if things change in the future can you contact them?* Yes, great! no, great! Show them to the door. Don’t thank them for anything nor wish them good luck. This is called posture in their world and they respect a strong position – they don’t have a choice.

    Have a little fun and turn the “posture table” on them ;-). If you want to throw ’em a bone then state your reasons are personal, then immediately *…* above. Want to add a shred of beef? Then, throw a closed interview question or two max! so you like this program? (don’t call it a business) and so it’s working out for you? Respond ok, don’t say great, good or good for you. Next add (the meat) ok it’s not for me and *…* above.

    They are gonna want to invite you to a cult meeting and/or leave you with their crap, decline everything for two reasons. 1-they can’t come back, that’s why they leave it behind hoping something in them will change your mind. 2-MLMbots have a “I am better than you because I am in this program” complex. When you decline their crap it’s in their minds that that’s tantamount to daring, and successfully kicking their pseudo religion to the curb and there ain’t nuthin they can do about it. It irritates the living crap out of them not to mention it’s you just handed a big can of whup! to the supposed big shot in front of his minor partner, bad bad for him.

    So YOU be in complete control, don’t call it a business, maintain posture, be firm and strong in your position but kind and courteous so you have a chance to get through to your friend’s mind. Don’t discuss this blog or what you have read online as a topic, you might push them away; unless of course they bring things up then you can apply a thinking mind tactic. Have fun and,

    Whatever you do, don’t accept my request to be over, I have a bad itch over these @#$%^& bots! 😉

  76. Rascal Teamster permalink
    January 25, 2013 5:53 pm

    What was just posted here should be copied and pasted somewhere for new prospects to find…..from @Never gonna get us’, “wish us well” post thru @Exambot. It’s perfect.

    @Former Round Table and @Exambot, you two are amazing. Talk about the mind set of business common sense mixed with the way to apply it, you two just put in a seminar.

    I swear, if I’d have had these last few posts earlier, I think I’d have left somewhere around….oh I don’t know….can you say, “6 This?”

  77. TruthSeeker permalink
    January 25, 2013 6:18 pm

    Ask them how many people it takes in their downline, split between two teams to cover a basic $50 a month subscription. They don’t know, that is never taught. Ask them to sit down and figure that out with you. It will open their eyes more than anything else ever could.

  78. TruthSeeker permalink
    January 25, 2013 6:21 pm

    @Rascal and @FormerRoundTable are right on track, great advice you two.

  79. Rascal Teamster permalink
    January 25, 2013 7:49 pm

    And if they do bring an upline to help close the deal, remember that this upline who is going to “help you become financially free” has only been able to help your friend make $100 a month.

    Could you really hope to do better than that? Are you that much better than your friend? How much? Twice as much? Three times? So you will me making $200 – $300 a month after two years?

    I was spending $250 a month on personal material and system, and I hadn’t even spent money on showing the plan yet. By the time I got done with everything, I was spending $400-$500 a month. The miles on your car and gas are ridiculous.

  80. MemoryLame permalink
    January 26, 2013 12:15 am

    Wow! I wish so bad that I had all this advice before somebody showed us this stupid plan! This is awesome, guys!

    We should write a brochure from this information and put it in the windshields of all the cars at Major seminars. Or put it on a disk like those Freedom to Fascism guys did one year! Lol!

  81. MemoryLame permalink
    January 26, 2013 7:57 am

    Good find, Raquel.

    I was thinking the other day that I remembered Birtles a Darkangelo mentioned as PC at one point, but couldn’t find the info on it. Could you possibly scan and post that brochure here? I think it would be good for new/potentially new people to see. Heck, it might even jog the memories of some existing.

  82. January 26, 2013 8:27 am

    Raquel: Does the brochure mention that the Darkangelos, Harteis and Birtles went PC that year? Is there any other printed documentation that says they went PC? If so, scan them in and send them to me.

  83. January 26, 2013 9:10 am


    Thanx! You are very kind. I haven’t been approached lately so I am on the look out for a chance this good to smoke’em out of their pseudo MLM pietism ;-). They must whiff me out and vamoose before I do them. But I did bump into a former emerald who surprised me with he quit! Said he realized where the cashiola came from and couldn’t deal continued lying to downline ambots. He had retired and all back then, talks on CD’s… the whole shebang. He’s back at work, proudly.

    I didn’t care but his mouth couldn’t stop crossling unlike back then. So I let him off load a bit. Said what bleeds his heart is the ambots he had introduced who wouldn’t listen to his reasons for leaving (some were former friends), nor the ones he knew for sure will never make it (i.e. the fluff I call’em, all upline leaders know them, they are only good for revenues/numbers while they last) but are whipped into “you can make it too just continue believing, hang on it will come to you, we believe in you” frenzy. That’s no surprise. He’s been bad mouthed and their allegiance re-directed as good as MLM style does. Proves some people don’t know they are misled until they get there-very dangerous for their followers. Then some see it but continue. Thus, another deluge of evil inherent in pernicious, pestilent MLM “industry.”

  84. MemoryLame permalink
    January 26, 2013 9:30 am

    ExAmbot said, “… the ones he knew for sure will never make it (i.e. the fluff I call’em, all upline leaders know them, they are only good for revenues/numbers while they last)…”

    I’m sure at that Leadership Conference everyone there heard multiple times something to the effect that “we (the PC) believe everyone here is capable of being up here with us.” The truth is, once you get to be friends with or mentor directly with up line that are considered “successful” you find out really quick that they don’t believe that about everyone. They start exposing this in the way they you.

    “You know, not everybody has the work ethic to go go-getter”

    Then you spend more time with them and you hear their nick names like “fluff” or “carnage” or the typical “losers” “quitters” “critics”…”that’s why they’ll never be rich”…”they’re just selfish, because they don’t really care about sharing this with everyone.”

    You are SO right, Exambot! They all try to blow that smoke that they believe in every one there, but they ALL know (or think they know) the ones who won’t be successful.

    The fact is that these leaders who are supposedly so convicted about honesty and integrity will use people who they are convinced are not going to make it, to get to that person’s contacts. The irony is that many people who “were not ever going PC” in this sham, go on to do productive, successful, meaningful work when they get out.

    So, who is really the fluff or carnage in the end?

  85. No Team For Me permalink
    January 26, 2013 10:59 am

    Great find Raquel! So let me get this straight…..Darkangelo had already arrived at the highest level of Teamscam and yet he declared bankruptcy over a year after that event with over $200k of consumer debt?????

  86. Melanie Morgan permalink
    January 26, 2013 11:16 am

    I too have a couple of those brochures from the major’s one from when all the “cross-line” groups were involved, Like Randy Haugen, Florence etc…were there. People should question why so many of the big leaders and their uplines no longer want nothing to do with Orrin & Co..

  87. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    January 26, 2013 11:46 am

    Is there any way Amthrax can show us old brochures and stuff?

  88. January 26, 2013 11:58 am

    I don’t mean to get off topic or distract kindly indulge me.


    My realization of the reality of fluff hit me like a half ton of lead, one of my “moment of knowing” that’s crystallized forever in my brain and heart. After exploring and looking into one after another MLM I realized fluff was not unique to one but prevalent in all (MLMs), in fact the staple and lifeblood of this wicked pretend “industry.”

    Remember this one, numbers are predictable? Fluff quits, falls off and a few hang on for decades. Yep and yikes! Here’s the story of truth unbeknownst to the masses: that these numbers are known (predictable) to, and every “leader” works with this knowledge. And thus, the cycle of “replacing them faster than they quit” concept that has rendered carnage in the wake of MLMs that is littered all over the place.

    Truth is fluff is the bloodline of MLM incomes. Without them opening their wallets (sales to outsiders are negligible) the so called “making it happen” leaders, champions, winners etc, can’t buy enough wampum from which the waxed poetic incomes emanate from. Conclusively it follows therefore, that diamonds, PC, etc lifestyles are supported directly by the fluffs, not other PCs, diamonds, turbos, platinums, etc, “leaders.” That is your proof that MLM’s are structures of evil for the sole purpose of wealth transfer from a people known to have no chance of making diamond, pc etc, (transferred) to a few charlatans atop a pyramid fully complicit in this knowledge, actively relieving MLMbots of their pockets’ contents and unashamedly partaking of the pelf thereof, all the while obfuscating these structures as or with, free enterprise. (Excuse my grammar there.) Do we therefore not have a duty to call evil as such and banish it?

  89. January 26, 2013 11:58 am


    -Has Orrin and many others not said “this [insert MLM] is not for everyone?”
    -Did my erstwhile colleague get bothered by knowingly lying to fluff that they can make it too?
    Among many other instances.

    Here’s the truth, though some fluff catch up to this, I am convinced though that everybody who gets to a certain level in MLM cannot pretend not to know the knowledge of fluff. Orrin and others in this pretend “industry” uttering the foregoing is not from a vacuum (or some possum’s butt) but a sound confirmation they all know what they are doing. They don’t care to whom they are doing it to so long as there’s fluff, there’s pelf headed their way. Without the fluffs opened pockets, $$$ streams up the pyramid dry fast (because we know there’s negligible sales to outsiders) and the “leaders” fall through the void bottoms. MLM lives on fluffers or more appropriately on the fluff’s pockets. Heavy recruiting is the only sustenance as it serves to increase the base of these pockets. When you understand that and the concept of fluff in MLMs there’s is no way you can call MLM a legitimate business but evil structures. You can understand why I am not impressed by diamonds incomes and others. It’s pelf. Again, we have a duty to call evil, evil and banish too.

  90. MemoryLame permalink
    January 26, 2013 12:47 pm

    Exambot, I just love it when you rant like that 😀

    Exactly! It is evil. When you’re talking to people in a large audience it’s so easy to get away with making fun of people who aren’t there, and instilling this thought that as an audience member you are one of three people –

    1) the guy who doesn’t know what’s happening
    2) the guy who is watching it happen
    3) the guy who makes things happen

    They make you instantly feel defensive that you aren’t the first one, make you feel like you should be ashamed if you’re the second, and like you should be proud if you’re the third one because all those in the other two categories are losers (but don’t tell them that or they’ll never be motivated to build your Team).

    This message is never pounded in harder than at major conventions. Truth is, without the major, I think – no, I know – that far more people would jump out of this deception sooner.

    Notice they never mention there’s at least also a 4th guy – the one that realizes this is all a crock of hypocrisy and lies, and sets out to stop it from happening!

  91. January 26, 2013 2:08 pm

    Exactamo! Very wise thoughts MemoryLame.

  92. Melanie Morgan permalink
    January 26, 2013 2:20 pm

    Yes, Yes,& Yes…Amen!

    You guys keep on rantin….It is the workings of all fraudsters from a “in a station of the Metro” view, a glace that eludes the unsuspecting numbed minds of those involved…your posts are a look inside at the den of thieves.

    It pays many dividends for readers to pay attention and think while reading all your posts!

    You guys ROCK! 🙂

  93. Melanie Morgan permalink
    January 26, 2013 2:30 pm

    I’ll be reading and will be back, but for now… onto a great night of fun with a true friend!

    You guys are on a roll!

  94. January 26, 2013 2:55 pm

    @ageofwisdom51 – If they send me screenshots or scans of old brochures, I can post them up on the site.

  95. January 26, 2013 9:43 pm

    I was really happy to find this thread tonite- I am an ex Team/Lifer that had been around the madness for almost 5 yrs. My soon to be ex husband and I got sucked in and kept asking questions about where did x leader go? or why is our area of WI so cursed for growth?

    We always got namby pamby question with a question answers bleck! So I decided to break free from the crap about a yr ago and went through what they call a “95%er” culture shock… (I’ve had a difficult time to put it mildly…)

    Yes people skills are great but, dang it when its truly ingrained it feels fake and manipulative toward ppl! That’s not me at all… Like many of you it became too much to bear any longer…

    So here I am, at a point where its frustrating to look back at the wasted time/energy and unfulfilled promises to my kids… I hope that Team gets the karma thats coming to them-shut down and drained of their resources…

    that doesn’t fix the broken relationships and time lost but at least more people wouldn’t have to go through such a circus to learn some awful, embarrassing lessons.

    Good to see you on here Melanie and Raquel- 🙂

  96. Did God tell you to spread discord? permalink
    January 26, 2013 11:04 pm

    ok so team is a bunch of brain washing leaders? What are you guys? you progressively trying to discourage people to join for the benefit of getting back at orrin. And you offer them nothin but the job they already have. I am sorry if you guys got “screwed” but if 9 guys can do it then everyone can. Do the work Orrin Woodward did for ten years and as well as he did and you to will be a millioniare, and your create a bunch of other people making alot of money and then 500 people who didnt think postively about the chance they had from you can create a site and tell everyone how you scam them.

  97. Rascal Teamster permalink
    January 27, 2013 6:41 am

    @leadingmama, great to see you here. Being from Michigan, I always like hearing the stories from the other side of the pond. It’s always seemed like Orrin had two lives. The one he lived through the Brady team, and the one he lived through the Guzzardo team. Amazing how we can have two separate stories about particular situations depending upon which side of Lake Michigan you reside.

    @did God tell you to spread discord, that’s an interesting point you make…..”if 9 can do it, others can.” That may or may not be a true statement. I’m sure there are things you can do and skills that you have that I could never do and vice versa. It’s the way we’re built.

    But did you seriously just type this…..
    “I am sorry if you guys got ‘screwed’ but if 9 guys can do it then everyone can. Do the work Orrin Woodward did for ten years and as well as he did and you to will be a millioniare, and your create a bunch of other people making alot of money and then 500 people who didnt think postively about the chance they had from you can create a site and tell everyone how you scam them.”

    Whoa…….hold the phone while I correct your statement.

    “If you can work with Orrin for 10 years and learn to scam people as well as he does, you will be a millionaire scammer just like he is.”

    Did you really just say that you agree Orrin screwed some of the people here (you’re sorry about that), but you still trust him to help you become a millionaire? Unless you are corrupt, the silliness of your logic will catch up to you like it did me, and I’ll welcome you to our group in the future. Some of these people he screwed were inner circle to Orrin for years. They were closer to him than you ever could be. If he could do that to them, who are you to him that you are protected from that abuse? Business is all about the “Speed of trust.” Trust him if you like….I did. But don’t whine when he stings you. He’s a scorpion. That’s what they do.

    Amthrax take those scans and add them to the Timeline with the bankruptcies. The truth will be unavoidable. The only way you will not follow the truth is if you choose not to. It won’t be because we didn’t tell you.

    VanBuskirks and Strohs went PC too. I watched it. Anyone got those brochures? I got Larry and Marsie’s autograph at a PC meet and greet at that very major. I felt so special…..Larry told me I was a winner.

    Now that I think about it, what kind if psycho BS was that? He just met me. I could have been a drunken, wife beater with other criminal tendencies. It’s all part of the feel good, pump you up, you can do it too crap. To say that about someone you don’t even know isn’t truthful. It’s bogus edification that really helps no one in the process. It’s psychobabble!

  98. Rascal Teamster permalink
    January 27, 2013 6:55 am

    And we love that psychobabble because it feels so good. So we all run to the next major to get more good feelings and just like emotionally driven lemmings, we fall off the financial cliff with Joe Darkangelo.

    And all the while, Orrin says, “if one man can do it, anyone can.”

    @did God tell you to spread discord, I believe in you too. You just need to Martinize yourself. 9 CDs a day, attend everything, and you’ll make it. It’s a system that works every time it’s tried. It’s duplicatable. It’s fool proof if you follow it. Anyone can do it. our problem here was that we members just didn’t understand the system or were to dense to follow it.

    Yup…..that’s why the Team is spitting out new Round Tables faster than the Govt spits out BS. Not so. I found the duplicatable system to be neither duplicatable nor something that anyone can do.

    The Peter Principle is real, brothers and sisters. Everyone can rise to the level of their own incompetence. And no, not everyone can move beyond that no matter how many books you read or CDs you listen to. Some skills are almost impossible for some people to learn. In the real world, that’s called aptitude. In Team, that’s called a problem with the remedy being, “listen to more CDs.”

  99. MemoryLame permalink
    January 27, 2013 8:40 am


    Think on this scripture:

    James 2:1-10 My brethren, do not hold the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with partiality. For if there should come into your assembly a man with gold rings, in fine apparel, and there should also come in a poor man in filthy clothes, and you pay attention to the one wearing the fine clothes and say to him, “You sit here in a good place,” and say to the poor man, “You stand there,” or, “Sit here at my footstool,” have you not shown partiality among yourselves, and become judges with evil thoughts? Listen, my beloved brethren: Has God not chosen the poor of this world to be rich in faith and heirs of the kingdom which He promised to those who love Him? But you have dishonored the poor man. Do not the rich oppress you and drag you into the courts? Do they not blaspheme that noble name by which you are called? If you really fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself,” you do well; but if you show partiality, you commit sin, and are convicted by the law as transgressors. For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all.

    How does that coincide with the teaching to “seek those out with ‘results'” To pursue the speaker as a future mentor, to “run for a goal to spend time with Orrin & Chris” ?

    Is it not dishonoring to the poor man to call him a “loser”, “fluff”, “carnage”?

    If LIFE teaches the pure and undefiled religion of scripture, why is the #1 topic at every meeting not to care for the orphans and widows?

    Why are you quoting from Proverbs 6, a scripture that pertains ONLY to brethren in Christ and using it to defend a group that you know for a fact is NOT made up only of brothers in Christ?

    Seek the scripture diligently and you will understand that this is deception.

  100. Rascal Teamster permalink
    January 27, 2013 10:17 am


    Your post is incredible. Gotta admit you got me. I did not link the “discord” avatar to Proverbs 6:16-19, but there it is in black and white.

    Is it not odd that the same scripture I would use to define them was used to define us?

    Thanks for the Bible lesson, MemoryLame. This is definitely the pot calling the kettle black. Have a Blessed Sunday.

  101. MemoryLame permalink
    January 27, 2013 10:46 am


    I appreciate your kind words. My heart hurts so much for people caught up in this, that I can hardly look at the scripture now without seeing how engulfed in sin I have been to believe these things. So, it is only by the grace of God that this is evident to me now at all.

    5 years of my life I spent feeding my flesh with this garbage. Trusting people who looked good on the outside but in reality were whitewashed tombs like Jesus called the Pharisees. Constantly being guilted and watching them guilt my husband to be more like them. All the while they clung to their houses and yachts and cars, pretending to care as they made decisions that literally took away the ability of fathers and mothers to buy groceries or pay their house payments. To feed their own lusts, they fed the weakness in others. They preyed on the feelings of people who had been rejected or despised by their own parents in many cases, and they mixed the Truth of the gospel with the lie of worldliness to add validity to their message.

    Am I at fault for following? Absolutely! We all are! But thank God He showed us the way out while we have time left on this earth. As for those who do this knowingly, I can only think of another scripture where Jesus says that for those who cause these little ones to stumble, it would be better for him that a millstone were tied around his neck and he were thrown into the sea!

  102. NEVER gonna get us! permalink
    January 27, 2013 11:44 am

    Well here’s the update on today. My friend called us 45 minutes before our meet and left a message to say he can’t make it because the roads are “bad”. But it’s all good because if we still want to join they’re signing up yet again ANOTHER new guy as of last night and we still have first dibs. My husband sent him a text telling him he has a headache and its ok if they can’t make it-which he really does have a headache after all of this. My friend replied ” we can shoot for next Saturday. Are you ready to hold your spot?” I think enough is enough and we’re just gonna call him later and tell him our answer. It just makes me mad that we were stressing over this all week just for him to cancel last minute. We don’t like knowing they’re trying to manipulate us and I understand they think theyre trying to help us by trying to get us to join. I guess at this point all we can do is just pray that they wake up. Thank you to everyone for all your help.

  103. freedomhaha permalink
    January 27, 2013 12:12 pm

    You guys on here are outstanding. I am often take aback by the collective effort and passion that is shown on here to fight for other people. Maybe we started posting on here for ourselves, but we stay for others. We post on here with no financial gain to ourselves, and we often never meet the people that we help.

    God bless everyone on this Sunday!

  104. Rascal Teamster permalink
    January 27, 2013 12:35 pm

    Tim Marks’ post on Twitter from friday night at 11:35pm at the major in California while Curtis Spokar is on stage.

    @viking4352: Curtis Spolar is teaching some great stuff in California

    OMG the empty seats while a HUGE leader is speaking. Unbelievable.

    I would like to lower my initial estimate of 14,000 people attending winter majors to 10,000 at best.

  105. Freedomhaha permalink
    January 27, 2013 12:45 pm

    Rascal- That is about as full as the Battle Creek seminar used to be.

  106. Rascal Teamster permalink
    January 27, 2013 12:53 pm

    Joce Dionne posted this to Twitter, and it really has me confused.

    @jocedionne: 2013: The year of the Round Table! Kaizen 20!!!

    All I’ve heard from these LIFE conventions is talk about Round Tables and something called PC. I’ve studied the LIFE comp plan forward and backward for any mentions of Round Table or PC, but I can’t find them mentioned anywhere.

    I thought that in a LIFE major, they would talk about the LIFE comp plan and LIFE tecognition. I want to be recognized as a Round Table. Can any of you LIFE members draw me out the requirements per the comp plan of what it takes in the LIFE business to achieve such a level? I don’t seem to find those ranks in your comp plan at all.

    In which other legitimate, legal MLM business can you recognize a rank that doesn’t exist?

    Hey NEVER gonna get us, ask your friend that?

  107. Rascal Teamster permalink
    January 27, 2013 12:56 pm


    We’d pack more into Lansing for a men’s leadership.

    That doesn’t even look like a couple thousand.

  108. ItsaPauling permalink
    January 27, 2013 5:02 pm

    Rascal, Great points!

    Memory, You have a wonderful heart!

    Never, Don’t stress, tell them no and lift your discomfort.

  109. No Team For Me permalink
    January 27, 2013 5:45 pm

    Is that picture of Curtis Spolar really at one of this month’s majors? That can’t be. Count how many rows there are. Then count how many per row. Now subtract the amount of chairs taken up by the soundbooth station and all the empties. Doesn’t look to me like they had much more than 1,000 people. And I wonder how many of those are such ‘committed power players’ that they actually went to 2 events.

    Can someone let me know. Was that actually one of the 3 majors. If so, Team has got to be in a MAJOR decline from just a few years ago.

  110. No Team For Me permalink
    January 27, 2013 5:48 pm

    Seriously, add it up. Unless there’s two more levels of a balcony we can’t see (which I highly doubt), there’s only about 1,000 at that event.

  111. January 27, 2013 7:49 pm

    @Never gonna get us! – I agree with the others that you should just call up your friend and respectfully decline. There’s no point dragging it on any further, especially since this is weighing on your mind.

  112. January 27, 2013 9:04 pm

    I agree don’t prolong it any longer. And when you talk to them be direct, succinct, short and to the point. Mlmbots always go for “leaving the door cracked open” strategy so they can call you back in 2 months or something or bring up the crap “business” should you bump into each other. So you close the door shut now!

    Tell them “I don’t want you to waste your time and I don’t you to waste my time either. So I better tell you the truth and that is we are not interested I have no doubt I will ever have any interest at all in the future. I wanted to tell you that when you came over but as a good friend I have to tell you now to save time than later so that you can focus your time & energy elsewhere. Ok buddy. Thanx for your interest in us. I hope our decision will not affect our friendship on your part going forward?” (Keep dead quiet and wait for an answer, this will define your future interaction and you are making them decide. Their call.)

    If they say can they call you back in the future tell them no it’s like I said I have no interest in this program at all nor in the future. But I hope our decision….(As above), If they ever bring up the pretend “biz” in the future during a meet up the very first time it occurs don’t let it slide. Address it – “I will appreciate you if you would respect our decision? Will you?”

    Be cordial but firm and don’t wish them good luck-many people will be hurt, MLM success means many people are emptying their pockets unwittingly to the successful.

  113. January 27, 2013 9:08 pm

    @Never gonna get us!

    “can they call you back in the future?”
    Of course they are welcome to as friends (not for the purpose of this program). Good Luck!

  114. Brent Hansen permalink
    January 27, 2013 10:05 pm

    @Rascal, you wrote, “The Peter Principle is real, brothers and sisters. Everyone can rise to the level of their own incompetence. And no, not everyone can move beyond that no matter how many books you read or CDs you listen to. Some skills are almost impossible for some people to learn. In the real world, that’s called aptitude. In Team, that’s called a problem with the remedy being, “listen to more CDs.”

    I am really interested to know exactly what you were insinuating when you wrote this specifically, “Some skills are almost impossible for some people to learn.” Do you honestly believe that success in “MLM” has anything to do with skills?

    How can the “Peter Principle” be applicable to the MLM arena? Just curious to know why you wrote that. Thanks.

  115. Rascal Teamster permalink
    January 28, 2013 4:47 am

    Brent…in this regard.

    Network marketing is probably the hardest sales job I’ve ever held. Sales is definitely a skill. Some people get it sooner than others, and some never get it at all. Some are too scared, lack confidence, posture, can’t think in their feet that fast, etc…..

    When they say that everyone can make it in networking, I don’t believe that to be true. I believe it takes a special kind of person to do it.

    And I would even go so far as to say that network marketing was something I was pretty incompetent at. I found it almost impossible to get out of management mode. Where many people could hold together a huge Round Table group, I had trouble with Turbo 25…..stuck between turbo 10 & 25 for 5 yrs.

  116. ItsaPauling permalink
    January 28, 2013 6:32 am

    Brent and Rascal, for me, truth always got in the way.

  117. Rascal Teamster permalink
    January 28, 2013 7:38 am


    Is that what that was I kept tripping over? It was truth?

    Mark told me it was my own feet…..

  118. JOBOutsider permalink
    February 5, 2013 6:58 pm

    The point about never referring to it as a business is excellent. Whenever it gets brought up in my office I always refer to it as a “business” with really exaggerated air quotes. I’ve started keeping track of dates where things that the people in my office who are involved say are going to happen. For instance we are coming up on the 3rd retirement date for one of the people involved. The first two have come and gone with no mention or event.

    They all attended the Ottawa meeting on that weekend. I don’t really know how it went because they know not to talk about it around me. However they have been talking about going on a free cruise soon. I asked them when they were going and they said as soon as they get to a certain level(I dont know what level). What is the likelihood of a bunch of them actually getting a free cruise? How high up do you have to be for that? I just want to know when I can start marking my calendar to watch that date come and go and have myself a little chuckle.

  119. Duped permalink
    February 5, 2013 10:48 pm

    Re: Rascal January 27, 2013 12:35 pm

    I’m curious about Curtis Spolar speaking at a LIFE function. I thought he was part of Legacy and that Legacy separated from TEAM.

    BTW, that was a pitiful crowd for a major…all those empty seats down front!

  120. Rascal Teamster permalink
    February 6, 2013 3:37 am

    Curtis Spolar stayed with Team when Legacy split off.

    With all the Team splitting and the ability for your downline to leave, passive residual income never was guaranteed.

    They sure preach a lot of loyalty for a bunch of people who don’t exhibit much of it.

  121. freedomhaha permalink
    February 6, 2013 4:26 am

    Rascal- Hey now, that isn’t fair to try and ding their loyalty. Orrin and his crew have always been loyal to trying to scam as much money as they can out of a pyramid scheme. I don’t think they have ever wavered a day on that promise!

  122. fastfruit2oo9 permalink
    February 7, 2013 3:18 pm

    What might work in the COMMUNITY is if the gr8 hearted folks trying to help others here – could simply become a shield and cross line and promise to get in and drag meetings on and on and on with promise… This could be a team within the team. Being a human shield to help protect the innocents that need NOT hear these messages.

    BEST advice I have heard about avoiding an MLM is to request the sponsor’s last 3 years worth of Tax Scheule A forms. IF NOTHING claimed, then all sales dollars were wiped out by COSTs! If your ‘friend’ is too low to even have an A form, simply go to the next up-line and request the last 3 years as a testimony of their great earnings.

    Speaking of repackaged CDs… I heard TM’s famous superman LIVE!, which got to be fully reacted on stage in grand rapids MICH around Dec of 2009. This must have cleaned up a reference or two to older names of companies, or provided a repeat performance of a memorized story for a mere $25.00 per head. Also, to show how important the CDs are, my up-line said they bought a Top 50 (can not be p_player without), but they ‘loaned ’em all out’… real important stuff that you would just give away all these lessons claimed to get a person really moving.

  123. TruthSeeker permalink
    February 7, 2013 8:52 pm


    From the Life Compensation Plan:

    “Trip Tracker – 200 Personal/Customer PV each and every month. For new Members, Trip Tracking begins with either your first, second or third month in business. For example, if your LIFE enrollment date is June 12th, you can either start Trip Tracking in June, July or August. If one month is missed, the member is no longer eligible for this trip.

    PV – 6,000 Total PV for 6 consecutive months with a minimum of 4,000 PV in Team #1 and an additional 2,000 PV, including personal and customer volume, outside of Team #1.

    For example, a new Member that was enrolled in June would start trip tracking in the month of June, July or August and continue to do 200 PV each month through the six month consecutive PV requirement.”

    To qualify one needs 6 consecutive months of 6,000 PV spread between two legs with 4,000 in volume in one team and 2,000 in another.

    In essence 6,000 divided by $50 subscription = 120 members / subscriptions, or 6,000 divided by $100 each = 60 members with a split between two teams.

    Don’t forget your own personal $200 commitment needed to qualify. Why not save $200 a month for 6 months and pay $1200 for your own damn cruise? Either way you are paying for it.

    Either generated $72,000 in volume by deceiving people, or save $1,200 by yourself and have clear conscience. Hard call huh?

    Next time they are talking about their cruise, ask them if they have their 60 people at $100 each, or their 120 people at $50 each. Watch them blush…. Then ask them why they don’t just save the $1200 and pay for their own cruise.

  124. JOBOutsider permalink
    February 10, 2013 7:49 pm

    Wow that is pretty ridiculous. I love the way its worded so it doesn’t seem like you are scamming people. I think it is safe to say that none of the people in my office are going to be going on a cruise unless they pay for it out of their own pockets.

  125. Ronald Schumont permalink
    February 18, 2013 12:44 pm


    I was with team for over a year. I left when they started bashing Quikstar and just selling cds and seminars. apparently the next best business was Mona Vie but I missed out on that.

    I was a member of the Liberators under Steve and Debbie D. Been trying to contact with them but no luck. Does anyone know if they are still in the biz?

    I am shocked to hear of all the pc that are no longer there. How do they explain such huge leaders leaving?

  126. Rascal Teamster permalink
    February 18, 2013 4:54 pm

    Greetings Ronald

    Good to see you here. I’m from a different part of the Mark’s business under Mark Paul. Look forward to reading your words from the Liberator camp. Always like hearing stories from my distant related crossline. Amazing the different stories one PC will tell each of his Round Tables.

    They explained the big leaders leaving by telling us all that they were traitors and abandoned us. Yep….we all bought it.

    Many of the leaders who I’m sure are here were people that I believed those things about. I need to apologize to Melanie Morgan, as I was lead to believe that she and John were the worst of offenders. I was told that they ran off to a different business and took a bunch of the Team with them. Now what’s crazy, was that I lead to feel sorry for George Guzzardo, as a large chunk of his business was stolen from him. How twisted, backwards, jack assed around is that? Totally backwards!

    Team — “Putting the Cult in Culture one leader at a time!”

  127. Rascal Teamster permalink
    February 18, 2013 5:46 pm


    Oh I know that now. I knew it before they left….as I did if you and Mark.

    But then you hear a story, and you start to change your opinion.

    Glad my original opinions were the correct ones.

  128. Ronald Schumont permalink
    February 18, 2013 6:12 pm

    I have a new quote to post
    “TEAM is a tax for people who are bad at math”

  129. ItsaPauling permalink
    February 18, 2013 6:39 pm

    When you consider that you probably have a better chance of hitting the Loto than P.C., you might want to put your money there.

  130. Freedomhaha permalink
    February 18, 2013 7:09 pm

    Team — “Putting the Cult in Culture one leader at a time!”

    Sad but so so true.

  131. Brent Hansen permalink
    February 18, 2013 7:42 pm

    @ Rascal wrote, “Team — “Putting the Cult in Culture one leader at a time!”

    Now that is hilarious! Nice!

  132. freedomhaha permalink
    February 19, 2013 5:56 am

    The quote that Ronald added is a great one as well.

  133. Melanie Morgan permalink
    February 23, 2013 12:16 am


    I am sorry I haven’t responded more timely to your post @ 2/18/13 4:54 pm.

    Thank you so much for the apology and I accept and appreciate it.Please don’t feel any guilt. We all made the fatal mistake of “trusting without question” and what I now believe had we not, the outcome and our experience would have been short lived.

    I will say for me personally, that is ONE of the biggest lessons I can pass on and that is Never, Ever just trust anyone that tells you, you can “trust them”, especially when the red flags… are on burning and on Fire; right in front of your face.

    They have their standard “story” they want repeated with any damage control. The non approachable stance they take, the secrecy, rudeness and anger I have witnessed in a situation that we brought up to Orrin on a specific issue that was in violation of what they teach and supposedly didn’t want in their “culture”.. were all burning red flags that something was being hidden, and not right and certainly created a lack of trust.

    “Trusting without question,” the whisper campaign, and over the top edification (idolatry) is built into their hierarchy for a reason! Clearly the “upline” and/or PC want to control what others believe and then that needs to be spread threw the entire organization and decides what is truth.

    I believe we were trapped in a game where the outcome was predetermined and that driving ambition is of no use when you are on the damaging road to hell. There came a time when unethical, immoral, and other shenanigans could no longer be denied, that was decision time, and we were not willing to sell our souls for it, no amount of money can buy a clear conscience. But there are ways to right the wrongs, but I never witnessed even a weak attempt.

    What they spread through the whisper campaign, in private, or behind closed doors. in team meetings etc.. is to be taken as the gospel, and overlooked and they apparently don’t think people will or should question their integrity; even in the case where Orrin & Laurie had many of our team leaders in a meeting under a judges gag order.

    Would they admit this truth or deny it?

    Because of hypocrisy and double standards, along with so many wrong things I have witnessed and the disregard and disrespect of others business, it would be insane to remain not to mention you would have sell your soul, it was not an option for us.

    But the lessons I have learned during our 13 year experience will last my lifetime, not that I didn’t already know people could be so self-serving and corrupt already but sometimes there are reasons for things not seen.

    So what you have been told is no surprise.I also know they will do anything to sway and say what-ever they can to create a predetermined outcome in the minds of those they are trying to desperately hang on to.

    I can also tell you, we too heard they were saying “we were traitors” and “abandoned” our groups. One only has to read Eric’s blog and see the evidence that has came from the top by com mentors who repeat just that. Interesting those same people never came to us, called us or “went to the source.” but cry abandonment.

    Yes, Poor George…What else are they going to believe or say, they have to justify the decimation of our teams and their need for their own ranking a certain select few, He ordered the “game-plan” and the rest participated in that “game-plan” by following orders. I heard they were promised it would pay off for them. no surprise, they would have said anything they were desperate to get the rank

    So Blaming us, I guess may ease their own conscience somehow, I expect it from followers; who left it up to others to decide which ones got screwed out of their own businesses or which ones were ‘favored’ and given someone else’s efforts, with no regard for them.

    But I can tell you I have NEVER spoken to Mark or Jen Paul since we have been gone so therefore, What facts would they have? HOW would they know Anything about John or I, they are “cross-line” who fed them authority to knowledge where we are, who is on our team and who left, what was done, etc?

    Apparently spreading this “gossip” is okay for them. But you would think as a deacon he would have thought twice about it.

    No worries thought, I am grateful, we are gone. There isn’t a one of them, I would ever want to be like, nor do I want what they want or have. Who I am and where I am headed, where my heart lies and who I believe they are, puts us worlds apart.

    I know what happened, what and who we helped,including those who are stabbing us in the back, God as our witness. and that is all that matters.

    Because there will be no justifying, it means nothing has the most money for high paid attorneys to try and destroy others with their revenge, loop holes,politically correctness & cleverness, deceit, denial, nor any hiding or secrecy of any truth…. this just compounds what we will be accountable for in the end.

    All know money buys many things, and no doubt enough money may purchase people’s integrity or lack their of and perhaps a way out for some, but you it won’t save your soul, in the end.

    Sorry for the lengthy post.

  134. Melanie Morgan permalink
    February 23, 2013 12:56 am

    Should say: “but money won’t save your soul, in the end.”

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