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A Pastor’s Take on the LIFE Business

June 27, 2013

Dave Marriott, lead pastor at Lakewood Baptist Church in Wisconsin, has written an article entitled The Threat of Team and the Life Business: A Warning to Fellow-Shepherds on the conservative Christian website Religious Affections.

Marriott writes that a family in his congregation was involved with TEAM and the LIFE Business. Over the course of a year and a half, Marriott and the family identified what they believed “are the chief dangers that TEAM poses to Christians and their local churches.” The post covers five reasons why Christians should be wary of TEAM/LIFE, including:

  1. The Team is Not Christ-Centered in its Approach to Life.
  2. The Team Tends to “Peddle” the Gospel.
  3. Team Tends to Detract from the Local Church.
  4. Team Tends to Place Unbiblical Expectations upon Christian Families.
  5. Team Inadvertently functions through the lens of retribution theology.

Read Marriott’s lengthy post for more details.

This blog has deliberately steered away from actively discussing the role of religion in multi-level marketing businesses such as TEAM/LIFE. Religion is a polarizing topic for many, and discussions that devolve into religious wars (i.e. Christianity is great! No, Christianity is bad!) are unnecessary and unproductive.

For those of you who believe, I suggest you go to Marriott’s post and participate in a two-way dialogue with the Lakewood Baptist Church pastor. Those who are of a different religious or spiritual mindset are encouraged to stay here and discuss the many other reasons why TEAM/LIFE is a bad business opportunity.

From a commenter: Here’s another article that talks whether a Christian should get involved with a multi-level marketing company

46 Comments leave one →
  1. Melanie Morgan permalink
    June 27, 2013 1:19 pm


    Thanks for posting this. I agree , there is no reason for any individual to steer the argument towards their personal religious beliefs, they have missed the point.

    No one can deny the fact that they have an agenda, they state; “they lead people to the truth“ it is part of their 8-F’s and the PC are acting as preachers, preaching sermons at their majors! It is I believe a very intricate part of of their “business.“ I believe it serves them on many levels and how they lure, and appeal to Pastors and Christians.

    Although, I know they have convinced themselves and believe they are good “Christian men & women“ and live their lives on “Christian principles.“ They used to be very convincing, (now, not so much), their basing, lawsuits, name calling and much more speaks the loudest.

    They can and do quote scripture, have bible studies, “talk the walk“, … they act the part….right up until they feel someone threatens their rights, reputation, and especially their money or exposes their non- Christian behavior.

    It doesn’t take x-ray vision to see who they really are when they feel the truth and facts are brought forth, or secretly feel threatened when they are losing people because of the facts, that is their direct and sole link to the PC’s income and lifestyle, cross that line and watch and see how Christian they act! They play dirty and become bullies & revengeful.

    Those..“Christian-principled- men and women?“…ummm …not even close, their true colors shine through..those principles are out the window it at that point….it becomes whatever serves them or they justify their means to their end.

    Acting and believing they are Christian, serves them extremely well in their “business” …they use it to gain credibility, lure, relatability, they want to attract blind trusting followers and there is no better way to get instant trust without question than using Christianity! .What unsuspecting soul entering a love bombing, positive Christian environment….wouldn’t believe they would do no harm, have integrity, and are the “real deal“ & wouldn’t question they are honest?! They use charity also.

    They solidify this with their constant undue influence, they want all others to is called edification“> IDOLATRY, (should be the 6th warning sign)

    I want to thank Pastor Dave Marriot, for the biblical truth , and for pointing out to those who have been bamboozled and can’t see,. You can count on the PC, using some unchristian tactic to try and discredit this Pastor or any other who points out the biblical truth!!

    Mark my words the defenders and what they repeat… will then know what the TOP have fed them on how they want others to justify or believe this Pastor has to be wrong.and sadly most will fall for their twisting.

    They will say things like, everyone has critics, he never was apart of the (cult) following he doesn’t know Orrin and the rest, how can he ‘judge?’How come people want to “tear down“ someone/something that is “changing the world“ and bring back “ christian values“…blah blah, whine, whiners, deny!

    [Editor’s note: Corrected some misspellings]

  2. Melanie Morgan permalink
    June 27, 2013 1:42 pm

    Also anyone who thinks they know Orrin and the other fakers or remains in question read the facts provided on this site, ask yourself the hard questions, use common sense, read who the real “christian“ Orrin… is (Qrush) and read Pastor Marriots post, discuss with your own pastor! And think on your own, please wake up!

  3. Chrisxrascal permalink
    June 27, 2013 11:39 pm

    My experiences is that team ,especially mostly the top leaders on team claim to be Christians. Even so, the business in my opinion isn’t a Christian business. They say they are using ” Christian principles”.
    Listen to the leaders and use discernment. In my experience the Leaders put too much emphasis on their life changing info, their purpose and their glorifying of each other. They also pull scripture out of context and seem to use it to promote their business. I just ask people who are in Team and ask them to be on guard and if they’re Christian to test what they say and hold them accountable to whom they claim they say they are and their intent.

  4. Chrisxrascal permalink
    July 28, 2013 1:27 am

    I would also like to point others to this article on mlms and Christianity.

  5. July 30, 2013 7:10 am

    Some woman came to my home to share this program. I had no interest in it from the get-go and was being polite, but it has now turned into an opportunity to share the Gospel! Thank you guys for posting the truth about this program (I had never heard of it before). It’s going to be helpful in my talk with her on Friday.

  6. melanie Morgan permalink
    July 30, 2013 11:59 am


    That is a one of the best and very thorough articles, I’ve read. It is very clear and easy to see how the LIFE/Team misuse the bible to suit their agenda. Thanks for the link.

    Amthrax could you please add that to the post , I believe it is very important. The majority they recruit are Christian, and they need to see the difference and how it is conflicting from the truth. Thanks.

    Being polite is great but chances are you will need to be firm, they don’t take a polite no very politely because they are trained to believe you are an enemy, loser, want to stay broke if you don’t join. It is very black & white “us vs them” cult indoctrination. I don’t see the politness returned based on so many accounts. Good luck!

    [Editor’s note: Added the article link to the bottom of the post]

  7. Melanie Morgan permalink
    July 30, 2013 12:04 pm

    Let us know how it turns out , be warned and prepared, I believe you will be shocked by their ‘attitude’ because you say NO, thank you. 🙂

  8. noteam permalink
    July 30, 2013 3:05 pm

    Melanie – I agree. The TEAM/LIFE/Orrin Woodward version of Christianity is definitely a very interested one. It seems to only apply when it suits their purpose. If it doesn’t, then somehow all of a sudden, somehow they seem to know personally what God wants and ‘all other Christians and preachers are being misled’. Then they start to have a very posturized ‘better than thou’ attitude when speaking to others.

    I had never witnessed such a convenient Christianity philosophy before until I met this group of scammers.

    The real sad part is the way they directly target Christian groups and churches and the devastation they have left in their wake among these groups.

  9. July 31, 2013 3:26 am

    Thanks for all the replies, support, and info. I’m not to worried about her not taking “no” — I was a bill collector before I became a believer! And now I have the Spirit of God living in me so if God is for me, who can be against me, right? LOL!!!

  10. Former Round Table permalink
    November 15, 2013 11:01 am

    It is unfortunate that so many people are fooled into believing the leadership of Life/Team is based on Christian principles. Too many people let their guard down when they think they are dealing with Christians.

    I believe that is specifically why Orrin made the decision years ago to delve into Christianity; people are less likely to question your motives if you cloak your words and actions with Christianity. John MacArthur believes that too many Christians lack discernment, and proof of that can be found sitting in the seats at any Life/Team function.

    What boggles my mind is how few people, once entrenched in Life/Team, ever question what they hear. How many of them have been involved for five or ten years or more, and believe that they still haven’t read the right book or attended the right function to make them successful? How many of them look at their spouse with frustration and/or loathing and wish their spouse would just get their act together?

    I am thankful every single day that I am out, and I am truly free. I am free to enjoy evenings and weekends with friends and family, not fake “business” friends. I am free to enjoy meeting and interacting with people without having an ulterior motive and trying to convince them to join my “business.” I am free to enjoy the blessings I have received in life and not chase after bigger and better houses and jewelry. I am free to take a vacation and truly RELAX. (Anyone who has taken a “vacation” with Life/Team knows that there is very little in the way of relaxation on those trips, or any trip. You are never really on vacation when you are in the “business” because you are always looking for prospects, always available by phone, and ALWAYS thinking about your “business.”)

  11. Britt permalink
    December 10, 2013 1:38 pm

    I have heard a lot of negative comments, it’s pretty sad. Have any of you ever been to a major? It’s a community of people having fun with the same morals. You all say it is not Christian, however, all the policy council members are Jesus followers and the business is about Christian morals.
    Sure, they are not pastors, so they do not speak of Jesus in every cd, but let me ask you….Does everyone who has criticized the lack of faith in this business currently have a job where your sole job is to bring Jesus in others lives?
    This is a job that brings inspiration and, most of the time, God in someone’s life; it did for me. I have never had such supportive and loving people, that wants the best for me, in my entire life. They have given me hundreds of dollars to help me and my, then newborn baby AND gave me a home to stay in. So please don’t question these peoples morals….Sure, not everyone in this business is perfect, hopefully though, you will talk to the right person if you ever run across someone in LIFE.
    WHEW….long post. 🙂

  12. Vogel permalink
    December 10, 2013 3:55 pm

    You might think that there’s something holy going on at those meetings, but I could quote verse after verse from the Bible explaining why the majority of what LIEf/TEAM does goes against scripture. Money-worshiping, self-adulating demigods who lie, cheat, and steal…how is that consistent with anything Jesus stood for?

    It is an offense to the Lord to take His name in vain by associating it with this earthly pyramid scheme cult.

    I have never seen any verifiable evidence that the TEAM/LIEf scam has ever helped even a single baby, but it’s probably harmed thousands by impoverishing parents and taking them out of the home on fools errands. Not to mention the damage that cults like this do to people’s mind and soul; that can decades to undo, and in some cases the harm may be irreparable. You can’t get back a decade wasted trying selling MLM junk for blasphemous bellowing blowhards.

    Happy Holidays to you though. May the New Year grant you some wisdom.

  13. Vogel permalink
    December 10, 2013 4:00 pm

    I guess now that Monavie is history, Orrin’s not really selling MLM junk anymore these days is he? What is he offering now? Books, CDs, and advice? That’s way worse. How utterly ridiculous.

  14. MN Vikings fan permalink
    December 10, 2013 7:44 pm

    Go to the original post and read the comments. More than one commenter there asked specific questions of the pastor. His response was that he had more supporters of his post than people against it and he was ‘surprised’ that anybody could disagree with him. Yeah sure, like posting a blog coming out against an MLM is ground breaking and won’t draw out upset people. Give me a break, pastor. He refused to answer any of the specific questions asked of him. He said that he stands by his opinion. Yeah, we know that you stand by your opinion but we want you to answer the specific questions asked of you. Specifically, how can this pastor point the finger at Life for “peddling the Gospel” when he and the website where he posts his comments is selling religious material for profit. How is this not “peddling the Gospel”, pastor? Also, he refused to apologize for his mean-spirited and hateful comments. Again, not answering the pointed questions directed at him by other commenters. He also refused to have this post removed. My other issue with this pastor is the contention and hate-filled diatribe against Latter-day Saints. This pastor is apparently upset that Orrin would hold a prayer session with a Latter-day Saint. Well pastor, Latter-day Saints are Christians. Although this pastor obviously does not agree with their doctrine he should still at least respect them and love them as directed in the New Testament. Again, this pastor refused to specifically answer the question of why he is not following the two greatest commandments as stated in the New Testament. I just want to say that you should not bear false witness. Whether this pastor is bearing false witness or not isn’t my call.

    I feel the pastor has the right to express his distaste for Life and MLMs. He also has a right to question the motives of these organizations to an extent. However, false and unfounded accusations and disrespectful comments are crossing the line.

  15. noteam permalink
    December 10, 2013 7:48 pm

    Britt – Beware the wolf in sheep’s clothing. They may appear to be Christians on stage. But once you get to meet the leaders and spend as much time with them as many of us have, you will realize it is a carefully planned manipulation to take advantage of people.

    That group has ruined more churches, more families and more lives than any group I have personally met. You ought to call Pastor Dickie (Orrin’s former mentor and pastor) to see the carnage this crew does to a church.

    They are only manipulating scriptures to suit their desires to scam people out of more money.

  16. britt permalink
    December 11, 2013 7:22 am

    Thank you for your concern! Truly.
    I understand how some people may feel about LIFE. There are lots of wolves in sheeps clothing out there, I’m just going to be forward and call out Joel Osteen, Joyce Meyer, Paula White, etc.
    I know the love of money is wrong.
    I know of ponzi schemes, pyramid schemes, etc.
    I’m not going to explain or defend LIFE, if you’re not into it, that’s your own decision.
    I feel sorry that Orrin’s name is slandered, but there’s not much else for me to say.

  17. noteam permalink
    December 11, 2013 10:51 am

    Britt – You have no idea how dishonest this crew truly is. The damage they have done is far greater than Joyce Meyer, Joel Osteen or Paula White. Joyce, Joel & Paula may sell a book or two, maybe $100-$200 a year to people. But Orrin and his scam have racked tens of thousands of dollars from thousands of people. My personal belief is I would be willing to bet that the number of people who have declared bankruptcy as a result of his scam is 100 times more than the number of people who have hit the PC level.

    This group is so dishonest. Read about the Amway/Quixtar lawsuit. Orrin was being kicked out of Amway/Quixtar for his dishonesty and continually breaking the rules and lying. I was there as were so many people on this site. We were taught to deliberately break Quixtar’s rules on so many occasions. Talk to people who were in back then and ask them if they were taught to refer to Quixtar as merely an Order Consolidation Site. Ask them if they were taught to say that we were not in the Quixtar business, we were in TOD. Ask them if they were taught to lie about the customer reporting.

    Read through this site of the many of us who had groups re-structured without our knowledge and therefore lost income as a result of this dishonest crew.

    Read about how many of us worked directly with Orrin himself and saw the dishonesty firsthand.

    Read about how Tim Mark’s dishonest ways got him fined an extra $60,000 by a judge who was fed up with all the deceit.

    Read about how Orrin & crew lost a $25 million judgement from Amway/Quixtar for their dishonest ways.

    This is the most dishonest, deceitful group of people most of us would ever personally come in contact with. I feel sorry for people who choose to look the other way. Thousands of lives have been ruined by this man and his TEAM/LIFE businesses and lack of ethics.

  18. Former Round Table permalink
    December 11, 2013 12:16 pm

    Britt, the only reason Orrin’s name is being slandered is because Orrin has willingly chosen to live his life in a deceitful, vengeful, and shameful way. Orrin’s choice.

  19. Vogel permalink
    December 11, 2013 3:12 pm

    Actually, it’s not slander when it’s true.

  20. Joecool permalink
    December 12, 2013 12:21 pm

    Did Mona Vie and Orrin go down the tubes?

  21. noteam permalink
    December 12, 2013 2:23 pm

    Joecool – Technically, Orrin is still in MonaVie and making a ton of money from all the groups he stole from Randy Haugen, Billy Florence, Lance Smith, Mark Crawford, Chuck Goetschel, etc.

    My personal belief is that somehow Dallin Larsen is personally involved in the ownership of LIFE behind the scenes. I can’t prove this and I could be wrong. But it seems odd that MonaVie made every single Black Diamond give up their tool business and yet allowed Orrin & Crew to keep theirs. Brig Hart was making a fortune on his tool business and was forced to give his up. Why was Orrin allowed to keep his when he talked less on his tools about MonaVie than any of the others. Orrin used MonaVie bigtime. They were a shield for his fight with Amway. But they never mention MonaVie from stage anymore unless Dallin or one of the MonaVie reps comes to speak at a major.

    However, Lance Smith, Billy Florence, etc are all downline from Orrin and his is making a lot of money off their groups even though most of those people want nothing to do with him because of his lies and deception and the fact that he stole so many of their groups and got so many of their people spending so much money on his tools that they stopped buying the MonaVie juice.

    If I were one of the MonaVie Black Diamonds, I would be extremely ticked that MonaVie legal dept has continued to look the other way while this scam artist continues to deceive so many people.

  22. Chrisxrascal permalink
    December 14, 2013 7:33 pm

    Monavie is still involved with the fitness F. They involve Mark Mcdonald a fitness expert as the spokesman at the majors at least before I left. I wouldn’t doubt Monavie is still in with team. Why, is the question? I suppose for the fitness advice?
    As far as the Christian aspect of team. I believed team was a good thing at first. The problem is you have to spend all your time and priorities around Team. Where does that allow you time to serve God? Spend time in his word or be active in Church? You can’t serve two masters. You must make a choice. I chose to leave Team mostly for this reason, plus I was losing too much money. Team in my opinion states they are “Christian” based, but they don’t seem to spend a lot of time telling you how ” Christ” changed their lives, instead they tend to focus on their Life books, which by the way are overpriced.

  23. Melanie Morgan permalink
    December 14, 2013 10:08 pm

    MN Vikings fan~

    I went and read the comments on the Pastor’s blog, and interesting but not ‘surprising’ you seem to be spinning your own take and words, perhaps to try and predetermine the outcome of what you want others (followers of Team/ Lief) to believe?

    Why not just quote the Pastor? I am not seeing your accusations to be valid that he is “mean-spirited” and “hate-filled?”

    Couple questions for you: First off, Why are you even on this site, just venting… when you have the Pastor’s site to address your issues directly and personally? Not following those “Christian principles” they so proudly say they follow? Why come and act like you are speaking to the Pastor from this blog?

    And Secondly, why are you so afraid to come on this site with your real name, and guessing you didn’t use your full name on the Pastor’s site either, along with others, when the rules of the blog state to do that? Team doesn’t teach much about “following” rules, do they? 🙂 Much better at breaking them, even in serious situations.

    Which comments on that site are yours (if any) or are you venting here? If you are firm in your convictions, then why hide, why are you afraid?

    Lastly, why are you trying to do the bidding of what should be the “responsibility” of the “founders”, after all they can answer for themselves, (who ARE preaching the Gospel) and can explain themselves or address the Pastor directly in an open forum, right? “Conflict Resolution?”

    What are they afraid? Nothing much has changed from my experience… it is just a bunch of followers trying to speak for them and then try and defend them with some pretty “mean-spirited” comments, quite notorious. But solves nothing!

    Oh one last thing, question from another thread; does the “founders” teach you exactly what “they do” and clearly help everyone understand what should be done legally with and how to charge “sales tax?” 🙂

  24. MN Vikings fan permalink
    December 16, 2013 5:12 am

    @Melanie Morgan- I am not sure what you are getting at. I posted my comments on this site because this is where I originally read about it. If Amthrax didn’t want comments on this site then why would Amthrax post something about it and provide a link? As you say I am “on this site, just venting”. Isn’t that what a blog like this is for and couldn’t that be said about anyone who posts here? Not sure why you think I need to use my full name on this site but if you really are interested then email me and I will tell you. Your bully and intimidation tactics will not work with me. I am not “afraid” and not hiding. The entire point to me “venting” on the Amthrax site is that people directly addressed the pastor on his site and the pastor did not answer the questions directed at him. I notice you don’t address the issues I bring forth either, you just attack Life and tried to attack my motives and credibility. Yes, I am firm in my convictions and am not sure why you would say I am hiding. Wouldn’t posting on this site be the opposite of hiding? Again, not sure what you are getting at and it appears to be another bully and redirection tactic. You want me to quote the pastor? Here you go, “However, as a Mormon (assuming his personal theology is in line with LDS), since he does not believe in the Deity of Jesus Christ, his teaching cannot possibly flow from the true Christ, who should be at the center.” This is mean spirited since Latter-day Saints do believe in the Deity of Jesus Christ. The pastor may not agree with LDS doctrine but that does not give him the right to make an incorrect statement such as they do not believe in the Deity of Jesus Christ. Another quote from the pastor “By hosting the Mormon, Oliver DeMille, the TEAM has clearly violated Scriptural principles of separation from apostasy as taught in 2 Corinthians 6:14-18, 2 John 9-11, as well as the entire book of Jude. If Christ were the center of the TEAM’s approach, then training from an individual who does not believe in the Deity of Jesus Christ would not be an option.” I feel this is hate-filled and not following the two greatest commandments as given in the New Testament. Here is a good link to interfaith worship and relationships that shows how Latter-day Saints feel and think about this issue:

    I am not doing the bidding for Life. They can defend their own actions. The issues I bring forward are issues that I believe in and have the right to defend. Again, I am posting on Amthrax, which is the original blog where I saw the comments and the link. I am not sure how that is not proper conflict resolution. This seems like another bully tactic of yours. The pastor had a chance to defend himself and answer questions on his own website and here was his response, “*To those challenging the contents of the article, I have read through each of your critiques and in some cases I wondered, “Did they read my article carefully?”
    “*To those demanding that this post be removed, that is a decision for the administrators of RAM. To those asking for apology from me, let me state that my conscience will not allow me to offer one. I stand by the opinions stated in my article.” It really doesn’t seem to me that he wants to answer questions. He essentially states that he stands behind his opinion and how could anybody disagree with him. We know he stands behind his opinion but he should be responsible and held accountable for what he posts.

    Finally, I would have liked to have seen the pastor address the question of how he can accuse Life of peddling the gospel and then sell religious products for profit on his own website. I was very disappointed when the pastor did not address this question. I would have found his answer very interesting.

    These are my thoughts, ideas, and opinions. I am not hiding or doing anybody’s bidding. I am open to respectful, honest, and open dialogue and discussion. As I said in my previous post I feel the pastor has a right to criticize an organization such as Life. However, I do think he dropped the ball by not responding properly to valid questions and issues directed at him.

    As far as the sales tax, from the invoices I have seen Life is collecting sales tax on taxable sales. Whether they properly remit that sales tax to the proper taxing authority is on them. I have no idea one way or the other. But, as I said on my original post without any evidence people should not be hinting that Life is doing something wrong on the sales tax issue. The penalties, interest, and fees applied if they were doing something wrong and then were audited would be much more than just properly remitting the tax. I saw no proof supplied by anybody showing any wrongdoing by Life on this issue. As far as reps collecting sales tax, here is how it works in the state where I live. If the rep is buying the products from Life and then selling them to their customers then the rep should be buying the products exempt for resale from Life by giving Life an exemption certificate. The rep would collect the sales tax from their customer and the rep would remit the sales tax to the proper taxing authority. Whether Life allows their reps to buy products exempt for resale is an answer I do not know. My guess is that Life would not allow this but I have not researched it. In the scenario I give, the obligation would be on the rep in an audit situation and not the Life business.

  25. Brent Hansen permalink
    December 16, 2013 9:07 am

    @MN Vikings fan, I am LDS and very outspoken about what I know, and believe about the Life business model. I find that the compensation plan alone violates my personal religious beliefs, let alone any other aspects of the Life charade.

    Since you have quoted the Ensign as a resource in your rebuttal, I will give you a quote from the December issue, an article titled “Making a Living, Making a Life” by Elder Lynn G. Robbins. I suggest you read and ponder the article, because I guarantee you, you have no idea what you are involved in. From his article:

    “At the D level, the unwary are more victims than customers. Once again the motivation is the love of money but this time at the peril of the customer, who may be injured or killed by the product. Profits at this level are known as filthy lucre.”

    “Many at the F level may be identified at the D level but actually fit better here because of their negative impact on communities and nations. At this level, we find those who don’t contribute but only take—through organized crime, Internet scams, Ponzi schemes, and so forth. At this level, you have murder and elimination of competition.”

    If you care to discuss this further by telephone please contact me by email at

  26. Brent Hansen permalink
    December 16, 2013 11:47 am

    @MN Vikings fan, I have to admit that when I first read the Pastor’s article, I was a bit set back by his unwarranted and ignorant attack on Mormons. I went as far as discussing the article with a non-Mormon friend of mine, and he confirmed with me, that what the Pastor said it his article was unnecessary.

    After reading it several times, pondering the message, gleaning all relevant points, and setting aside humanistic, and natural, knee-jerk reactions, I can honestly tell you I am proud of him for standing up for what he believes, and attempting to help people avoid the heartache that could possibly be attached by participating with these folks.

    Ignorance aside, he shares a lot of nuggets, and a lot of truth.

    Don’t shoot the messenger because you may not agree 100% with the flavor of his message.

  27. Melanie Morgan permalink
    December 19, 2013 4:18 pm

    MN Viking Fan!

    LMAO…”bulling, intimidating, and redirection tactics, eh?” Why do you say that? Are uncomfortable with my questions…or don’t like it that I don’t take liefers crap? I’m not a mean person but don’t fall for much especially coming from someone who I am sure doesn’t know what I know about the misleaders on Team.

    You can find me on FB and send a PM, doubt you’re already on of my “friends” list. 🙂

    How long you been in LIEf? Have you been “voted in” Team?

    Btw My bad I asked a question that left you off the hook, but don’t play me for a fool, you and I know you aren’t on this site “to just vent”. Feel free to ‘vent’ just don’t expect to not be challenged on here.

    And don’t you find it interesting that you aren’t allowed to “vent” or have anything but an adorning comment on ANY of the numerous “Founders” websites and others blogs? Is that why you came here rather than go to their sites? I do find it humorous if you come to Amthrax’s site to vent.. Hahaha, bet you’re upline is proud, oh that’s right you are anonymous..(which btw YOU are violating your legal contract with LIEF by being on Amthrax AND could get “your” I mean Orrin’s business taken from you. You have read your P&P, no? Doesn’t it say you have to use your full name and ID on public sites or was that with Monavie?

    Amthrax has made it very clear more than once this site is not to debate politics or “religion” but it IS about Team Lief and MLM’s, and other related topics…such as cults, and information involving the abusive, deceptive, unethical, misleading, lies, secrets, facts, and stories of those who have been burnt, lied to, stolen, you can add their “bulling and intimidation tactics and they are masters at denial and redirection. As a matter of fact, the whole industry reeks of RICO. Have you read the lawsuit Ocean vs Visalus?

    You stated: “Wouldn’t posting on this site be the opposite of hiding?”

    Well, no…. Did you go directly to the Pastor and “vent” on his blog and under what NAME did you do your “venting?”

    Which brings again to my other point on “Conflict Resolution” that you seemed to be confused on. You need to go listen to Pastor Dickie’s cd on Conflict Resolution, (do they still use it or did they copy the content ,using another speaker?), you can then answer your own question.

    I would highly recommend getting a hold of Brent Hansen, I am sure he is a lot less intimidating,,, 🙂

  28. Melanie Morgan permalink
    December 19, 2013 9:05 pm

    MN Viking fan~

    You don’t know what you don’t know.

    Study the comp plan done on Life by Mike Collins ( you do want to know how few and little if any profit you and your downline lose or can ‘potentially’ make, right? Pretty important to know owning your own business, right?

    Research the history of LAWSUITS brought on by Orrin, Crew and company. They were once Team of Destiny (in Amway) Team (in Quixtar, now back to Amway), Team in Hiding (promoting themselves as a business, while not a business… continuing on promoting and wanting everyone to ‘sell’ the same cd’s, books, seminars, etc, during the 6 months “no compete” between Amway and Monavie, hmm? The Business as usual…. ;)..then onto Team Monavie, and now Team/LIFE or whatever new name they came up with to hide from their past?

    Did you register and Are you in Monavie, now?

    Have you heard of Mark and Raquel Peters who are being sued by their former upline Eric Blomdahl? You can read their story on here. Perhaps, you know about Orrin suing Scott Larsen ..for copyright?…He was a “critic”.. ( Orrin AFTER suing him, miraculously then agreed with him and his now great information, he went on to sue Amway and then apparently over night, Scott Larsen was an amazingly good and worthy critic? Still…Unbelievable.

    Do you think Orrin or Others would have sued… Scott Larsen or anyone else if they used worshiping praises, promoted them, was spending, spending,spending in their Team?… Do you think they would have cared or even notice any copyright, if that were the case?

    Also, read ALL the lawsuits… in the industry MLM that you are in….also read the books written by those who have been whistle-blowers, you can read “Merchants of Deceptions” for FREE, ebook at the right sidebar of this page but there are many written from various people in Top inside positions, in the most well know MLM’s and Inside the industry there is enough cut throat, bulling, intimidation, and way more disturbing information, that will shock you. It did me, you don’t know what you don’t know and it certainly is the of what they want and get others to believe. Why do you think they are critics and spend so much time repeating derogatory and negatives about ‘critics’ and controlling the information on the internet?!

    What the ToP people and companies are doing to each other, they are their own worse enemies… should be warning enough to you…and clearly points out who’s bulling who.

    Don’t forget to read Ocean vs Visalus lawsuit and Visalus vs Ocean….should be a real eye opener for you.

  29. MN Vikings fan permalink
    December 31, 2013 2:14 pm

    Hi Brent and Melanie Morgan. I have reviewed your comments and respect your opinions. I also read my comments again. I don’t feel that I went out of my way to defend Life. I was defending Latter-day Saints and questioning why the Pastor didn’t answer certain questions addressed directly to him on his website. As I said, Life can defend their own actions and the pastor has the right to criticize them. I have decided many months ago that the Life opportunity is not for me. However, I do feel that it could be a legitimate opportunity for that right somebody. It is a brutal reality that very few “make it” in Life or any MLM. I guess that is my rub with the detractors of Life (and in turn really any MLM). How can somebody honestly say that they are not entering into an MLM with their eyes wide open? You are given all the information before you sign. If you fail to read or research that is on you. Also, any adult the age of 18 or older should at least have some knowledge of MLMs and their history and challenges. If not, they should be exposed to that type of information shortly after contacting family and friends about the Life opportunity. If somebody chooses to blindly avoid this information and ignore detractors and continue to chase an MLM opportunity then I feel that person needs to take responsibility for their actions. Whatever happened to taking 100% responsibility for your actions and the results that come from those actions? I guess I am possibly too old school with that view.

    @ Brent- I find it interesting that you are LDS. I have already read the Ensign article that you reference and had many of the same thoughts that you had the first time that I read it. I read it a second time and more questions came into my mind as to where I would place the Life opportunity. I am not sure if I would necessarily call it a C, D, or F business as you apparently do. I guess that it might depend on the person and their intents and their heart and how they are working the Life business. Somebody could be working Life as an A, B, or C level opportunity (at least temporarily). While I think the negatives of the Life opportunity (and any other MLM) might honestly exclude if from being a permanent A or B opportunity, I think it might slip into the A or B categories for a temporary period of time depending on the circumstance. My personal belief is that it is a long-shot to work Life (or any other MLM) full-time and net enough to support yourself. I think MLMs are great part-time opportunities, especially when you factor in tax breaks. I do think the chance is there for somebody to work an MLM full-time and make a lot of money and keep the business in the A or B category from the article. I have seen this with my own eyes (not in Life but another MLM). Take care and God bless.

    Happy New Year!

  30. Vogel permalink
    December 31, 2013 4:56 pm

    MNVF said: “However, I do feel that it could be a legitimate opportunity for that right somebody.”

    That “right somebody” is the kingpin who gets a cash bonus and preferential placement to come over from another MLM with an existing downline – and then lies to cover it up, as they always do. The “right somebody” could also be anyone with a wide circle of contacts who isn’t afraid to use lies and coercion to exploit new recruits. Aside from that, those are really the only “right somebodies” I can think of. There is not net personal growth in these organizations – they are in fact a cancer for the soul. There are much better places to get educated, counseled, socialized, etc.

    MNVF said: “How can somebody honestly say that they are not entering into an MLM with their eyes wide open? You are given all the information before you sign. If you fail to read or research that is on you. Also, any adult the age of 18 or older should at least have some knowledge of MLMs and their history and challenges. If not, they should be exposed to that type of information shortly after contacting family and friends about the Life opportunity. If somebody chooses to blindly avoid this information and ignore detractors and continue to chase an MLM opportunity then I feel that person needs to take responsibility for their actions. Whatever happened to taking 100% responsibility for your actions and the results that come from those actions? I guess I am possibly too old school with that view.”

    Oh come now — it has nothing to do with old or new school. Most people don’t know what MLMs are. Most people have little more than a vague recollection about Amway being an MLM, and that MLMs are basically pyramid schemes, but then every MLM company bends over backwards to mislead people about these issues — for example, by denying that they are MLMs and instead referring to the business as “direct selling” or “network marketing”. They try to deflect the pyramid scheme accusation by using the false retort that every company in corporate America is a pyramid scheme. The MLM industry paid lobbyists to make sure that their businesses would be exempted from the FTCs Proposed Business Opportunity Rule, which would have imposed consumer protection measures to prevent the use of hard-sell tactics. Aside from purposeful deception like this on the macro level, there is also the use of highly coercive tactics in the field, like using group pressure and love bombing, and just straight up lying (these are fundamentals of MLM recruiting) . There’s no denying it. There’s also the issue of the arcane compensation plans, which are purposely designed to be mindbogglingly complicated, so that new participants will be completely unable to see how difficult it really is to make money .

    I’m in favor of people taking personal responsibility for being victimized by MLMs only if what they are getting into is transparent and they aren’t being misled. However, MLM organizations are in essence, misinformation machines. They lie and deceive about virtually everything.

    The only people who defend the MLM industry are (a) the handful of people at the top who are committed to exploiting their fellow man (this includes investors and the lawyers, lobbyists, propagandists, etc. hired by the industry); and (b) pawns who simply haven’t yet faced reality but who will eventually.

    The Utah connection with MLM is disturbing to say the least. Utah is MLM Mecca, and it wouldn’t be unreasonable to say that the MLM industry is like the Mormon mafia, except instead of savvy street thugs, the guys at the top are BYU business grads and about as tough as cream of wheat. The industry involves greed on many levels — on the part of the kingpins; the distributors with their pipe-dreams of wealth; the politicians who exchange their protection for campaign contributions from MLMs; and the LDS church which profits handsomely from the tithes generated by MLM crooks, and in turn, does nothing to protect the flock from being fleeced.

    Happy New Year!

  31. MN Vikings fan permalink
    January 2, 2014 5:42 pm

    I believe that most people know what MLMs are in today’s world or at least have some knowledge. If they honestly don’t(which I doubt), then I surely feel that they will quickly realize what they have gotten involved with very soon after making a few phone calls, talking to a few people, or attending a few meetings. If they continue to persist and chase after the dream that is their decision and they should take full responsibility for their actions. There is no excuse to not research something in today’s world. It just takes a Google search.

    As far as people being “victimized” by MLMs, I disagree. If a person continues to pursue an MLM opportunity then they are not getting victimized. They are pursuing a business opportunity. Whether you agree that it is a valid or legitimate opportunity is a separate issue than whether they are victimized by that opportunity. If somebody persists for months or even years chasing an MLM dream then that person is obviously making a decision to continue and are not being victimized. It may not always be that simple but I feel that is the bottom line. Take responsibility for your actions and the results you get from those actions. If you leave Life or any other MLM and wish to post your opinion against those type of businesses then be my guest. I just feel it is intellectually dishonest to say that people are victimized. People make the decision to continue to pursue an MLM opportunity. They are not victims. What about performing due diligence before beginning a business opportunity? I just don’t buy the victim line. I have no agenda. I am not an MLM kingpin and have no loyalty to the Life organization.

    I also beg to differ with your Utah claims. I don’t have any hard evidence but my guess is that LDS people in Utah might be attracted to an MLM opportunity due to the close knit community atmosphere, which is similar to the close knit atmosphere at your typical LDS ward.

  32. Vogel permalink
    January 2, 2014 6:14 pm

    MNVF, what still don’t seem to appreciate is that MLM companies actively deceive people. You’re still insisting that if people get deceived, it’s their fault, but that’s absurd because the evidence of purposeful deception is ironclad – it is a fundamental operating principle of MLM. Ergo, people are not able to make informed decisions and, thus, they are being victimized.

    How can you beg to differ with my “Utah claims”? Are you too incurious to look at the facts for yourself? Utah is an MLM safe haven by design — political campaign contributions and lax regulation are what helped made it that way. There’s no denying that Mormons are expected to tithe a fixed percentage of income; ergo, the Mormon kingpins (guys like Dallin Larsen for instance) are either helping to feed the collection tray or they’re not paying their tithes. If it’s the former, then the LDS church is benefiting from other people being swindled. Regardless, given that destructive MLMs are rampant in the LDS community, it would be nice if the LDS church did something to safeguard (or at least warn/educate) the flock, but it hasn’t. That’s only one of a hundred or so damning arguments related to MLM, but it certainly merits more consideration than the offhanded dismissal you provided.

  33. noteam permalink
    January 2, 2014 8:20 pm

    MNVF – I strongly disagree with you about people who stay in not being victims. Especially with regard to Orrin Woodward and his LIFE/TEAM scam. In my opinion this is a blatant scam. They intentially get people to believe that the reason they are not making money is because they need to attend the next major event or purchase a slew of CD packs month after month after month. Many of these people will spend $5-10,000 a year on this business and LIFE continually makes people feel it is their fault if they do not succeed. It’s never the business model. Always the person. (Even though I believe they have still not produced a single new PC member who was not a part of their old Amway/Quixtar business from 2007). That means this ‘wonderful’ system has gone 6 years and with over 30,000 people trying, not a single one of them produced a new PC?
    If someone tries a business and fails that’s one thing. But if an organization deceives people when they know the numbers do not add up – that’s victimizing innocent people.

  34. January 2, 2014 9:59 pm

    MNVF, I see where you’re coming from but here’s the big hole in your argument: the new guy that comes to a Tuesday is told NOTHING about the Team side of the income. That is blatant deception.

    You are told that the kingpin (Round Table or Policy Council) that is up on stage is financially free because of the Life “opportunity”. This is described as peddling “leadership” materials, which is also deceiving because you only make money recruiting & having teams of people buying Life/Team crap but that’s beside the point.

    The truth is that most of the kingpin’s income comes from Team tools/events. And where does the tool money come from? It comes from those outside the circle who know nothing about Team profit sharing & worst of all, it comes from the new Turbo 10s & 25s required to buy $600 in tools EVERY MONTH to share in the pool.

    Why is that not shared on Tuesday nights? The reason you get depends on who you ask but the truth is the same. Life is all about recruiting & internal consumption. I don’t remember ever being told that, maybe you saw a different presentation.

  35. Vogel permalink
    January 3, 2014 8:20 am

    In MNVFs defense, we should point out that there are also people who join MLMs with their eyes more or less open and who are at least somewhat aware of the fact that they are participating in a scam and lying to people, but they do it anyway out of greed. They are not victims but rather perpetrators, and they should bear responsibility for their actions.

    There are people at all levels of MLM pyramids that get blinded by greed; however the ringleaders are very good at exploiting people’s innate tendency to be self-serving. They feed greed and selfishness, blind ambition and materialism. That’s another thing that makes these cults so destructive, especially when they try to cloak these aspects in religion (e.g., “the Lord wants you to be rich…so go recruit…”).

    Taking a wild guess as to the relative proportion of distributors who are greedy and aware versus blind victims, I’d say it probably mirrors the percentage of those who are profitable — somewhere around 1% to 5%.

    I hate greed and take a dim view of greedy people, but when MLM companies leverage greed and combine that with disinformation campaigns, it’s a double whammy.

    In practical terms, it’s easier to combat the fraud artists who run these scams than it is to cure people of greed.

  36. MN Vikings fan permalink
    January 3, 2014 3:17 pm

    Sorry guys, I just cannot buy the victim routine. Were you a victim when you were accepting your monthly commission check? Were you a victim when you were chasing the dream of not having a 9 to 5 job? To me, a victim is somebody who gets their bank account drained and then never hears from the people again (very simplistic example). The leaders in Life hold open meetings every Tuesday and are somewhat accessible. You need to sign up to become a member and willing give your credit/debit card information. You have the option at any time to cancel your subscriptions and end your association with Life. Whether you feel people are blinded by greed or the presentation/leaders in Life are misleading is another category. That still doesn’t earn the victim label for somebody. I compare it to my experience with a Fortune 500 company where I was employed from age 30 to age 40. I was promised promotions that never materialized, had pay and commission checks taken away (stolen) from me by management for no other reason that they just decided they didn’t want to pay me the money that I rightfully earned. I was told I was not allowed to express my opinion and that I needed to support a political view that went against my religious and moral beliefs. I was blatantly lied to about numerous issues. I dedicated 10 years of some of the best years of my career. I gave my everything for that company every day for 10 years. I was given promotions and exceeds ratings on my evaluations and praised by management as an exceptional worker. Then, after 10 years my job and the job of 45 of my coworkers was sent to Costa Rica for nothing more than greed. The company was turning a large profit and simply sent our jobs overseas to save a few dollars each year on salary. My last day at this company, management disappeared and didn’t even give us the common courtesy of a goodbye and a hand shake. I have never for once considered myself a “victim”. It is ridiculous and the victim label doesn’t apply to your typical Life member. It sounds like a copout to me.

    @PJ -in response to the Tuesday night presentation. On the flip side of the coin, I never heard anybody say anything was guaranteed. I went to 2 or 3 Tuesday nights. They were upfront about the income opportunity as the income figures were on a large board at the front of the room. You are given a detailed description of the compensation plan. There was no promise of financial freedom. Not sure why you think that additional income available to people after they show success in building the business would be deceptive. I think there is mention of this additional income you talk about in the compensation brochure I was given. Yeah, it is buried on a page in the back but I think it is there. [I looked at the Member Compensation Plan booklet given to me and “Leader Development Commission Bonuses” explanation begins on page 5. Is this what you are referencing?] If not, provide more details. Whether your average person reads that far is another debate but if they don’t read then that is on them. I won’t debate with you that it is about recruiting. The internal consumption is a little more complicated.. it was truly internal consumption wouldn’t they get shut down?

    @Vogel- you can have your opinion about Utah and MLMs and I can have mine. I told you why I thought that Utah might attract a high number of MLM participants. Whether you decide to accept my opinion as valid is up to you, but that does not mean I am “incurious”. You are using conjecture and speculation and so am I. So be it. I do find it curious that you say the LDS Church is lining their pockets from MLM tithing. If so, then somebody must be making money and not everybody is going bankrupt and is a victim. By the way, there was a letter from the First Presidency (a few years ago, I think) read by Bishops from the pulpit warning LDS members to essentially be careful/cautious with the groups they affiliate themselves with. It wasn’t an outright warning against legal MLM businesses but an MLM business could have been interpreted as the kind of group they were referencing. See this link:

  37. Brent Hansen permalink
    January 3, 2014 4:19 pm

    It’s simple. People join MLM companies because they are horrible at math, and the spin masters make it seem viable. I would be willing to bet that less than 95% of participants are trained in how to perform “due diligence”, thus, they blindly join.

    @MNFV, I am not buying into your notion that people aren’t deceived, I have seen it happen too many times to deny that it doesn’t occur.

    If people knew that mathematically (not statistically) that 99% of them would not even earn enough from their “MLM BUSINESS” to even cover the cost of their product, do you still believe they would join?

    The true numbers of the compensation plans are never disclosed, thus making the models far from transparent, and pernicious in nature.

    Please spare me of the ever so used comparisons between MLM and traditional business, because I have heard them all, and the comparisons are irrelevant. Real, or traditional business, is not governed by mathematical equations that are as powerful as the law of gravity.

    Utah, and the LDS community have become the MLM hot bed because of many reasons, one of them being a huge connection to a global community. Because of the Mormon Missionary efforts, and its outreach to many foreign countries, MLM lowlifes use Utah, and its former missionaries to expand their scams into countries around the world.

    I have watched 3 “LDS” owned MLMs make their way into the Philippines the last year, and the path of destruction that occurred as a result.

  38. Vogel permalink
    January 3, 2014 7:57 pm

    MNVF said: “Sorry guys, I just cannot buy the victim routine. Were you a victim when you were accepting your monthly commission check?”

    Ha! Your premise collapsed already by the second sentence. If you posed that question to the majority of MLM participants, the answer would be “I didn’t get a check,” because the vast majority are revenue negative.

    MNVF said: “Were you a victim when you were chasing the dream of not having a 9 to 5 job?“

    They were if some persistent hustler (maybe someone like you?) kept lying to them and saying that they could be job optional in a couple of years.

    MNVF said: “To me, a victim is somebody who gets their bank account drained and then never hears from the people again (very simplistic example).”

    A simple example for a simple person? Victimization can come in many forms, many of them far more subtle then what you describe. Why are you wasting our time with these silly straw man arguments?

    MNVF said: “That still doesn’t earn the victim label for somebody. I compare it to my experience with a Fortune 500 company where I was employed from age 30 to age 40. I was promised promotions that never materialized, had pay and commission checks taken away (stolen) from me by management for no other reason that they just decided they didn’t want to pay me the money that I rightfully earned.”

    Which Fortune 500 company was that? Sounds like a total BS story to me. As an employee in the workplace, you DO have rights and protections. Those rights include not having your paycheck “stolen by management”. If you chose to not exercise your rights, then that was poor judgment on your part. In MLM, one has virtually no rights; in fact most people who join don’t even understand the terms of their agreement. There’s a reason why MLMs target idiots…they tend to not read or understand the fine print of those insanely arcane MLM distribution agreements.

    Look, Orrin has spent years lying to people from the stage (and apparently from his anonymous blogs posts too), parading around fellow charlatans as examples of the success that can allegedly be achieved in MLM, when in fact those people were horribly unsuccessful and had fallen into bankruptcy and foreclosure. Had it not been for all the people here doing research to expose this web of BS, no one would have been the wiser. They make a game out of lying to people — a con game. It is an elaborate show designed to separate people from their hard earned money.

    The more I read your posts, the more I realize that the only explanation for why you refuse to see any MLM participants as victims is that you are one of the victimizers.

    MNVF said: “@Vogel- you can have your opinion about Utah and MLMs and I can have mine…You are using conjecture and speculation and so am I.”

    You keep brandishing your opinion as though it trumps fact. I am not using conjecture and speculation; I am referring to matters of fact that I had hoped I wouldn’t have to waste time spoon-feeding to you, given that you would be perfectly capable of finding the information if you were curious enough to simply look for it.

    The FACT that there are so many MLMs based in Utah proves my central point. Utah is, figuratively, MLM Mecca. The money trail connecting campaign contributions with Utah politicians (e.g., Chaffetz, Hatch, etc.) is a matter of public record too, as are the efforts of those politicians and MLM lobby groups (financed by those Utah MLMs) to have regulations loosened. It all follows a pattern established years ago by Amway when they invested their money to get their people appointed to Congress and to run the FTC. Again, the facts trump your opinion.

    MNVF said: “By the way, there was a letter from the First Presidency (a few years ago, I think) read by Bishops from the pulpit warning LDS members to essentially be careful/cautious with the groups they affiliate themselves with. It wasn’t an outright warning against legal MLM businesses but an MLM business could have been interpreted as the kind of group they were referencing.”

    That’s interesting, and it counts for something, but it was 5-years old, pretty damn vague, and highly unlikely to be effective when you consider that this milquetoast letter was going against a multimillion dollar marketing machine designed to deceive people into believing that MLM is a sound business opportunity.

    Given that you are too incurious to do even a little bit of research, I won’t belabor this point with you. I’ll close by saying that if we were to compile a list of every Utah MLM scheme and all their false and misleading claims (just look at all the juice MLMs like Monavie and supplement companies like LifeVantage for example), it would be truly sickening — a testimonial to deceit and exploitation.

    Troll on MNVF!

  39. Brent Hansen permalink
    January 3, 2014 8:41 pm

    Spot on Vogel, I wasn’t shocked when I read about former Presidential candidate Mitt Romney and his ‘Nuskin’ ties. I wonder if MNVF has read ‘Formerly Filthy Rich’ by Adam Baker and can let Sandy Tillotson off the hook for her sexcapades and deception.

    Jon Huntsman ( former Presidential candidate) was instrumental in bringing the scam into China, who normally frowns upon U.S. based pyramid schemes.

    MLM Modus Operandi: We pay politicians and lobbyists good money to loosen up pyramid law, and keep regulators from putting us out of business.

    Great quote about deception from a former Nuskin employee:

    “Distributors would bring unsuspecting “potentials” into the Pharmanex lab where I was supposed to give tours. Without fail, the distributors would tell flat out lies to their marks and when I would try to correct some of the misinformation I would get reprimanded. It was soon after that I realized that the biophotonic scanner was a complete fraud, as was all the rest of Pharmanex’s shit. I quit after about 10 months. It was amazing to me how well respected NuSkin is in Utah and how much control they have over local politics.”

    Vogel is correct!

  40. noteam permalink
    January 3, 2014 9:19 pm

    MNVF – Unfortunately, the new person is fed these same lies about victim mentality. Orrin would love to have someone like you posting things like this for him. Great distractions from the truth.

    Unfortunately, the masses have no idea of the volume of lies they are told from the beginning to get them hooked. No different than a cult. It’s easy to say, “well, they are free to leave cult at any time of their own free will.” In truth, the indoctrination is orchestrated so well, that most do not realize it until its’ too late. You have to have been a part of TEAM or LIFE for years to truly understand how deep the deception goes with this crew. And it’s always passed off as a joke that people are paranoid of being in a cult. When in fact, that is exactly what it is.

    People have sacrificed their faith in God, their commitment to their Church, their relationships with their friends and family who are not a part of TEAM/LIFE, they have missed endless critical memories with their kids and a huge majority end up thousands and thousands of dollars in debt after having alienated themselves from anyone not connected to the LIFE cult. As a result they are afraid to leave because they feel so alone. They also have no idea how many other people in the cult may feel the same way.

    But the indoctrination against ‘crosslining’ or ‘being negative’ is so strong, no one dares mention anything to the rest of the victims of the cult.

  41. MN Vikings fan permalink
    January 4, 2014 7:03 am

    Well, you guys certainly have strong opinions. Just a couple of thoughts here- I am not a troll. The story about my former job is 100% true. I have no agenda and would not be able to fabricate that type of story. The state where I live in is at-will employment. I did threaten legal action and forced my employer to back down and pay me the well-deserved wages. I was blacklisted off the management track at that point.

    @Vogel- I find it interesting that you paint former MLM people as victims but display little to no sympathy for my plight with my former employer. I honestly don’t see the difference between the two situations other than my job was outsourced against my will (I thought I was going to retire from this company) and an MLM person leaves under their own free will. Why do you have differing value systems for these two situations? I would think using your logic that I would have been called a victim of my previous employer.

    As far as the Utah situation, I am not disputing your fact that Utah has a high number of MLMs. That is a well-known fact. I am disputing your assertions and allegations in reference to the impact of MLMs in Utah and why they are prevalent in Utah and their social impact and the behavior of Latter-day Saints. That is the portion where it is opinions.

    I also find it interesting that you refer to me as being “incurious” in regards to my research on MLMs and Utah. Quite honestly, I don’t live in Utah and have never set foot there. I have done some quick research and Google searches on Utah and MLMs simply because I am a Latter-day Saint and have a natural curiosity about Utah. Otherwise, it has zero impact on my life. However, in the same breath you give people that join an MLM and pay their hard earned money to join a business opportunity a pass on doing any research into the opportunity they are joining. Then, you call them victims after they persist for months or years without doing their due diligence. Why the double standard as far as research? Shouldn’t you be calling MLM participants “incurious” instead of “victims”? Again, why the double standard? Why do you issue a free pass to MLM “victims”?

    @ Brent – if you have seen MLMs do damage then I am sorry. I still feel that people need to take personal responsibility and protect themselves. I don’t wish anybody to get scammed or devote all of their time and money with little to no return. I think anybody would agree that is just not a winning formula. I won’t even argue with you that MLMs are bad math. That is obvious to anybody who can do simple math or can read. That doesn’t mean that they don’t have a place in society or a legal right to run a business. I feel you have the right to kick and scream as loud against MLMs and Life as you want. Be my guest. It makes no difference to me.

    @no team- I don’t want anybody to get scammed by a cult, either. It saddens me that people would take advantage of others through lies and deceit. I take issue with Life running their Major events on Sundays and asking people to make phone calls/prospect on the Sabbath.

  42. Jeff permalink
    January 4, 2014 7:54 am

    Folks, I used the 30 day get my money back guarantee to look at everything to “hold my spot” and then started to do the research. It didn’t take me long to find enough reasons to have caution since I hadn’t looked at MLM since 1984, I didn’t know anything really about what is happening out there today. So, I almost “trusted” the good people, and I really believe they are good people (are they brainwashed?), but they did NOT give me all the information, and after listening to several cd’s, I believe the half truths are spun very well. The one on one relationships from good people coat the due diligence and thus “victims” are indeed produced. I am convinced that these nice people don’t really understand that yet?

    I cannot join now but I don’t know if these issues are inherent in MLM’s. The 80/20 rule in direct sales has become the 95/5 rule. I can’t find a sales person who wants to knock on a door or make a phone call to make $1000 per sale selling advertising. Out of 600 sales folks, 20% make 6 figures and good luck to everyone else. But, do they have the same opportunity? NO, less accounts to call on, good accounts already taken, competitors stealing from the pool of businesses. It can’t be the same.

    Well, socialism is not the answer, but, the bottom 80% are getting restless.Capitalism, trickle down economics, inherently will have folks at the top. The post about the CEO ratio’s with top corporations was very interesting and may prove that argument. We know that capitalism is a prosperous system, but the world is rigged for people at the top. My research continues for an honest situation. So far, in my one week research, I am depressed. If I decide to become one of the 20% ers of the 20%ers in an MLM, it seems I will be creating a bunch of losers. It is very much like my world now, recruiting sales people trying to sell ads. Wow. its lonely at the top……….Maybe Ghandi had it correct, let’s sell everything and live under the stars.

  43. Vogel permalink
    January 4, 2014 10:53 am

    MNVF said: “Just a couple of thoughts here — I am not a troll. The story about my former job is 100% true. I have no agenda and would not be able to fabricate that type of story.”

    You behave so much like a troll that simply saying “I’m not a troll” does nothing to dispel the perception. Same applies to using “what I said is 100% true” in the absence of facts. You have done nothing to gain trust, so don’t use arguments that rely on it.

    MNVF said: “I did threaten legal action and forced my employer to back down and pay me the well-deserved wages. I was blacklisted off the management track at that point.”

    What you’re saying solidifies the point I made previously. The non-MLM workplace provides the worker with certain rights and protection; rights which you allegedly exercised in suing your employer for failure to pay you the wages you earned. In MLM, aggrieved workers have virtually no legal recourse. If this alleged Fortune 500 company punished you for seeking wages that were improperly held back, then you could have sued for that too. Your whole story smells like complete BS though.

    MNVF said: “@Vogel- I find it interesting that you paint former MLM people as victims but display little to no sympathy for my plight with my former employer. I honestly don’t see the difference between the two situations other than my job was outsourced against my will (I thought I was going to retire from this company) and an MLM person leaves under their own free will. Why do you have differing value systems for these two situations? I would think using your logic that I would have been called a victim of my previous employer.”

    I didn’t portray all MLMers as victims, I qualified my argument by applying it only to those situations in which people were actively deceived (i.e. it’s not easy to learn the truth when others go to great lengths to suppress it). Furthermore, I have enormous sympathy in general for workers who have their jobs outsourced, as I do with the victims of the unscrupulous MLM industry. I just don’t have any sympathy for the sob story you told because you seem like a bit of an insensitive dick and as I said before, you have not earned my trust to the point where I would take anything you say at face value. I asked you to name the company and, conspicuously, you didn’t. There is no way of knowing that you ever worked for a Fortune 500 company, let alone that they outsourced your job, or that if they did so, it wasn’t due to poor job performance on your part. It is absurd for you to demand sympathy from me when you have shown none for the victims of MLM, who, unlike your off-topic sob story, are the actual subject of Amthrax’s website.

    MNVF said: “As far as the Utah situation, I am not disputing your fact that Utah has a high number of MLMs. That is a well-known fact. I am disputing your assertions and allegations in reference to the impact of MLMs in Utah and why they are prevalent in Utah and their social impact and the behavior of Latter-day Saints. That is the portion where it is opinions. I also find it interesting that you refer to me as being “incurious” in regards to my research on MLMs and Utah.”

    You are in fact continuing to use your unsubstantiated opinion to dispute things that are factual (e.g., what I said about graft, lax regulations, etc.), and it’s getting tedious.

    MNVF said: “However, in the same breath you give people that join an MLM and pay their hard earned money to join a business opportunity a pass on doing any research into the opportunity they are joining. Then, you call them victims after they persist for months or years without doing their due diligence. Why the double standard as far as research? Shouldn’t you be calling MLM participants “incurious” instead of “victims”? Again, why the double standard? Why do you issue a free pass to MLM “victims”?

    You’re a real piece of work. Your arguments are so incredibly weak, tedious, and futile that I have no choice but to conclude that your motives are dishonorable. I am calling you incurious because you refuse to acknowledge well established facts regarding how Utah-based MLMs use misinformation to deceive consumers and how they finance lobby groups and Utah politicians who in turn fight to deregulate the MLM industry. You don’t debate the issue and you don’t seek evidence one way or the other; you simply insist on disagreeing anyway. That’s a far cry from what happens when someone gets hard-sold a business pitch to join an MLM by a sneaky liar. MLMs spend a good part of their marketing budgets on misinformation; things like jiggering with Google search rankings by using decoy sites; oh and of course hiring PR consultants to do damage control on popular websites that are critical of MLM – coincidentally (cough) very much like what you seem to be doing here.

    If someone is purposely deceived into doing something, then there is unquestionably an element of victimization. If someone just stubbornly refuses to listen to facts when they have them thrust in their face – as you have – then that’s just stubbornness or stupidity.

  44. Brent Hansen permalink
    January 5, 2014 7:30 pm

    It appears that at the end of the day, MNVikings fan seems to believe that MLMs have the right to rip people off and then when confronted, blame the people for believing them. What a moronic position to try and substantiate, wouldn’t it be easier just to stand up for what is morally and ethically right?

    Vogel, I’m with you, I say he’s a troll, and most likely a dyed in the wool Republican to boot.

  45. Vogel permalink
    January 5, 2014 9:14 pm

    He’s a clumsy white belt trying his hand at what he thinks is sneaky mental jiu jitsu. He reminds me a lot of Troy Dooly. Amateurs!

  46. Melanie Morgan permalink
    January 5, 2014 10:09 pm

    Cheers to you guys, their ain’t a match for ya, lol! Happy New Year! MNVF comments are exhausting!

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