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Won’s TEAM/LIFE Prospecting Story

January 6, 2014

A new comment on Bewildered’s TEAM/LIFE prospecting story tells the tale of a reader called Won, who gave me permission to repost his or her original comments below:

I thought I’d chime in on this subject, being I’ve experienced near-constant annoyance from this MLM called “LIFE” since last August.

It began when an acquaintance I’d nearly forgotten about showed up to my home, for no apparent reason, other than to tell me she was starting a new business and wanted me to review her plan.

As a bit of back story, many of my friends, and some who call me their friend, often come to me for assistance regarding marketing new ideas for their businesses, reviving a storefront during an extended lull, or even launching some new idea – often bizarre and unrealistic.

With that being said, I expected to do for her what I do for each of these friends: look over the paperwork, nod a few times, and send them on their way with advice I know they’ll probably not utilize anyway.

She said she would return shortly with the paperwork, and I agreed to meet with her for one hour to discuss the matter.

Within about a quarter of an hour, she returned with a car full of strangers. How peculiar is it to return with unannounced strangers to someone’s house? I did not let them in, and we sat around an outdoor table in the lovely 90 degree weather. That’s just my way of saying “Welcome!”

Expecting to review an idea, or several, I was instead promptly given a very scripted sales pitch on some “business” called “LIFE” by her mentor and his cohorts who were starting her off on this scheme. They could tell I was highly annoyed and about to dismiss them instantly. I found it highly ironic and simply strange that this motley crew of poorly dressed “business professionals” was lecturing me on how to make money, especially being the way I was supposed to make money was from them! I was dumbfounded! I cut them off after about five minutes of berating me with nonsensical leadership attributes and strategies. Five minutes of longwinded talk about absolutely nothing!

A bit more background: I began my career as a salesman. I’m now a regional for one of the largest retailers in the nation. I know the language of sales better than I do English. The language they spoke was a primitive version of what would be expected from a 20 something salesman just starting out, and following the corporate sales guide word for word, selling low-end electronics. The rhetorical questions, the saccharin-like compliments, the indirect slide toward profitability, and the ever-present lack of any true detail aside from heaping piles of nervous hype! Blah!

Anyway, as I cut them off and told them how straightly bewildered I am as to why they are trying this on me, and what I do for a living, the mentor responded, bewildering me just as badly, by saying, “Well, wouldn’t you like to quit your job and have all the free time you could ever imagine? What would you do with a lifetime of weekends?” What a serious face palm!

I found a bit of humor in the situation and dismissed them from my property. Before they left, the mentor in the group handed me a small box of CD’s and pamphlets. This, of course, as any good salesman knows, ties the salesman to the client by artificially creating a future chain of communication. I shouldn’t have taken it, but I like to have a good laugh. It’s not everyday someone has the nerve to try something like this on me.

I’ll finish the account later on. It gets interesting, lol.

and the follow-up comment a short time later:


That’s ok.

I’ll finish a few more thoughts.

Later on that week, I decided I’d throw one of the CD’s in my car and have a listen while I drove to work (it was going to be a terribly boring 45 minute drive that morning.) After 30 minutes of listening straight then skipping around the disc, here’s what I found:

-An initial relatable story about debt, poverty, and “just getting by” to prompt the listener to feel as if the speaker is talking directly to them.
-Offering a swift reaction (MLM business proposition) to solve financial dilemma.
-Announcing victim of said financial ruin is actually founder of LIFE.
-Utilization of the “Bandwagon Effect,” like those sleazy infomercials on property flipping, to keep the audience captive.
-Reassuring the likely MLM-weary audience that LIFE is just the opposite.
-And next CD please!

All of this while not exactly explaining what LIFE really even is.

So, what we have is basically this:

“Hello, I understand the financial pain you are in. That’s why you have this CD. I also understand you are probably listening it on your drive in to work this morning, which means you’ll be captive for an average of 20 minutes.

On the subject of work, what a lousy life, right? Bills are piling up, you have to work for the man, and don’t get any time off. I had the same experience, only I used my woes to better my family and start this wonderful business.

You can be part of it, too! All these people just like you did it!

Since we’ve established a level of trust, and we’re speaking on the same level, let me answer the question you’re thinking. LIFE is not an pyramid scheme, in fact, it’s just the opposite. If you follow the steps (please purchase) after becoming a member (please purchase,) you’re guaranteed to make enough money to quit your job and become financially free!

And what is it that you will be doing? Creating communities and changing lives! And what does that entitle? Please purchase your next box of CD’s and answer the persistent calls of the mentor/friend who sent us your way!”

Pretty much, they throw a relatable problem to a selected audience to increase the closing percentage. Then, they let the audience react to said problem (common financial story.) Finally, the audience finds out the husband and wife from the narrative are the founders of this crazy program called LIFE! A surprising (to some) and emotion-filled solution! After all, this just became a little drama while you drive into a job you’ve been convinced to hate!

Then, the trust that had been slowly built is established via a continuance of the narrative as well as the bandwagon effect. Finally, the audience trusts the speakers enough for them to nullify the elephant in the room objection!

All this, of course, before the mentor even has time to arrange meeting after meeting after meeting.

Hey, maybe your financial situation is bad because you’re stuck going to these meetings all the time, lol!

Here’s what really threw me off. How does Christianity have anything to do, and I mean anything to do, with running an insidious multilevel marketing enterprise? I was sickened to hear God, Jesus, and the Christian Bible brought up into this sales pitch. Nothing I’ve ever read in the Good Book describes Jesus looking favorably toward those who dupe their friends into buying tons and tons of CD’s (or scrolls, lol), and getting other people to do the same, for no apparent reason other than to get more people to buy CD’s. And the CD’s are nothing better than the hyped-up self help dribble you can hear on YouTube, or at your company’s next performance meeting.

Anyway, about a week later, my friend called me back and asked me how I liked the material (surprise, surprise… I thought she would want to see how I was enjoying the sunny weather!)

Here’s my dilemma. I wanted to tell her off on the phone, just how moronic it is to join one of these sugar-coated MLM’s of the future, but, who listens to me, anyway? I don’t have any debt. I don’t drive an old car. My financial situation is golden. How would I even begin to describe an MLM, or the proper sport of salesmanship, to someone who is seemingly oblivious to these concepts?

I did it by example.

To her on the phone, I said “Oh, what lovely information, passionate speakers, yes, yes! When do you want it all back, so I can take another?”

I think I caught her off guard (sorry!) and she stumbled a bit, telling me she will arrange a few meetings with her mentor and I, as well as with a few more people, then she’d invite me to a monthly meeting where I will meet everyone.

Luckily, these people had no issue driving an hour to meet me for lunch a few times before the monthly, which surprised me quite highly. Also, the fact they’d drive all that way and not eat anything was very weird, as well, even as I’d offer to pay each time.

Can you all guess what I was planning to do?

She wouldn’t listen to me if I told her, but maybe she’d listen to me if I showed her how things really were in this company – right in front of her “friends,” mentors, and company idols. So, that’s what I did, lol!

I’ll conclude this later on. I have quite a lot to say on Pyramid Schemes and MLM’s, regarding legality and so forth, as well.

And here’s part three of Won’s story:

Half the country is snowed in, I have some free time, lol.

I’ll talk about the lunch meetings for a bit before I dive into the big monthly meeting.

As I said earlier, my friend scheduled a handful of lunch meetings on my behalf with her mentor and a few other people in his downline, as well as a couple more people who also had downlines that generated enough money for them to allegedly become “financially free.”

Now, that phrase, “financially free,” is something I heard quite often. Never was I given a full explanation as to what it meant, nor did I really care. Buzzwords are just buzzwords.

During these meetings, I had to play the part of someone who was at least semi-interested, or they’d quickly dismiss me, and I wouldn’t be able to attend this glorious meeting they couldn’t stop jabbering about – and that’s what I wanted to do – hopefully shake a few people out of this trance they’re in, maybe even my old friend.

Many times, I had to bite my tongue. As someone who started in sales, appreciates an honest sale, and oversees thousands of such sales nationally, I find talk of “downlines” and “uplines” disgusting. This isn’t sales. This is, “hey, let’s write down ten names of people we love and care about so that maybe one of them will do the same, and I’ll be able to make a commission!”

When I am purchasing new suits, ties, and shirts, I know the creative saleswoman who always coordinates my colors and so on is thrilled to see me – not only because I’m charismatic, lol, but because whenever I come in, she earns enough in commission to eat steak for dinner all month. And I’m ok with that, in fact, I am very happy for her, because she is making an honest sale and actually selling something tangible. She puts in great effort to put together my outfits, takes pride in her design work, and has great skills as a saleswoman.

This is the big difference between direct sales and pyramid selling. A pyramid selling company is not based on selling products, though products may be involved, they are not the primary concern of the company, and function more as a “mask.” A pyramid selling company is interested in limited exponential growth models, where the salesperson, and I use the term loosely, isn’t so much as selling a product as he/she is replacing him/herself with another salesperson who will do the same for them. It’s the difference between selling a product and a scheme.

Although LIFE sells a “product,” it does so indirectly. The idea is that you sell a “membership” that will then purchase CD’s and attend conferences because they have to in order to be a member in good standing. LIFE is not in the business of selling CD’s or any material for that matter. They are in the business of increasing members exponentially who then are required to purchase the CD’s and go to the conferences to maintaing this membership and have a (very slim) chance at making money.

Anyway, as I played interested, all while scarfing down my lunch so as to return in time to finish my daily business, I noticed this pattern playing out in each of these LIFE members’ actions.

I would poke ever so slightly in an attempt to get one of the mentors, or whatever they liked to be called, to explain directly what it is that LIFE was all about (sounds more profound than it is, right?) I’d always receive a textbook-vague answer in return, always ending in a misplaced compliment about my intelligence or accomplishments. Oh gee, I’m flattered, where do I sign, lol.

Seeing that they were getting nowhere with me, but confused as to why I continually gave them “yes man” answers to everything, they tried to pull a classic trick on me during the final lunch meeting before the monthly. Somehow or another, they brought in one of the “heroes” of the company, a 50-something man with poorly-groomed hair and an uncoordinating jean/sport jacket combination. As a rule of thumb, I don’t take business advice from someone who shows up to a meeting not dressed for the occasion. I wanted to ask, so badly, “So, my friend, how long have you been financially free?” Lol!

Anyway, this fellow was luckily a little more slick in his sales presentation, and at least tried to convince me he was answering my questions as he danced around them. Good man, lol! He told me all about his downlines, how much money he was making, how great Mr. Woodward is, and much he loves spending time with Woodward and Co. I really, really wanted to ask him, “How much of your earned money goes toward chasing Mr. Woodward and his lifestyle around, and how much goes toward maintaing your own?” Lol.

When someone can’t make a sale, but they feel as if the customer is a buyer, it’s only a natural reaction to bring someone else in to close the deal. Coffee is for closers! That’s all they did, and I am flattered they brought in one of their best, lol!

Regardless of the fact, he spun around a while, and I continually gave him the dirt beneath his tires to spin around in, until I was ready to get back to work, which wasn’t long after I finished my lunch. I did find it peculiar how much this fellow would sweat when I’d first listen to an entire rant of his about how great an aspect of LIFE was and, second, ask him, simply, “why?” I’ve found that “No” and “Why” are two of the most powerful words to use in any situation. Hardly anyone expects either to be used, even though they are the personifications of the most natural reactions we have to new information.

After a handful of arduous, and seemingly boastful, lunch meetings, I was a couple days shy of the big one. To be honest, I would have expected this group of “financially free” wizards of LIFE to have sussed me out as someone just taking them for a laugh to prove a point to an old friend, but they didn’t. In fact, it only proves their persistence, or desperation. And I am leaning toward the latter, lol.

86 Comments leave one →
  1. January 6, 2014 1:21 pm

    Ooo I can’t wait to hear the rest! This is awesome!

  2. January 6, 2014 1:58 pm

    Does this smell fishy to anyone else? What’s up with all these multi part segments out of nowhere? Is this Breaking Bad or a place to share experiences that will hopefully help others?

  3. Melanie Morgan permalink
    January 6, 2014 3:17 pm


    What makes you ask that?

  4. Dan Harper permalink
    January 6, 2014 4:34 pm

    Ya not sure,kinda thinking what p.j. may be thinking,,,,,,,,,

  5. need life like I need a hole in the head permalink
    January 6, 2014 4:38 pm

    Who in dey hey still listens to CD’s??? I mean that’s so 2005. Any company still trying to sell CD’s is whack. All this leadership info Lief claims to be the best in is recycled material and anyone can get access too. Looking back I can’t believe I fell for this crap and wasted a few years ditching my true friends to run around like hooligans in a white shirt with rusty @$$ pit stains and an ugly @$$ red Christmas tie wit a few bozo’s claiming to be my new best friends. Till this day I have yet to hear from those weasels since I turned down their offer to a calling party to get a certain leader in Band of Bros to diamond. Intrigued to read the rest of this dudes story. I’m hoping he b|+ch slapped someone!

  6. Heather permalink
    January 6, 2014 6:31 pm

    Won must be a great salesperson because I am absolutely captivated. I can’t wait to hear what happens when they attend a seminar!

  7. Mike Collins permalink
    January 6, 2014 7:10 pm

    Let’s see……maybe “won” is really Orrin and has cooked up this plan to make these posts so that he can absolutely slam the people in LIFE and make them all look like idiots because deep down inside he despises his success and has decided to try to blow the whole thing up…..yeah…..that’s the ticket.

    Paranoia runs deed. Let the man tell his story for cryin out loud. Cheese and rice man

  8. Melanie Morgan permalink
    January 6, 2014 7:21 pm

    need life like I need a hole in the head~

    Lmao! 🙂

  9. bewildered permalink
    January 6, 2014 7:53 pm

    In answer to PJ’s question: ‘does this smell fishy to anyone else’. Can only speak for myself but, not, not in the slightest. Sounds like a very genuine accounting of a typical experience with MLM ‘sales’. Of course the thing that makes it atypical is that someone who saw through the scheme from the beginning took some extra time to ‘indulge’ the perpetrators out of a combination of curiosity and desire to do SOMETHING to help expose the absurdity of it all. I can relate because I was motivated by the same urge. I’m confused why it appears at all ‘fishy’.

  10. January 6, 2014 9:24 pm

    This is the 2nd person in a row who has come here with a defiant multi part, “I knew it was a scam right off the bat” story to tell. Is that normal? I was somewhat deep in the biz & I thought long & hard before I shared my story. Maybe I just assume that everyone found this site like I did by getting smacked in the face with Amthrax at a follow up by someone who initially showed interest.

    Also, when I sat to email my story, I waited until I had time and it all just came out in one setting. It never occurred to me to break it into cliffhanger size pieces.

    I haven’t been on this side of the fence as long as the rest of you, so I’ll defer to your BS detectors. It just seems weird.

  11. January 6, 2014 9:43 pm

    I dont know, Mike Collins, I’ll never be as devious or scheming as Uncle Orrey, but from the short time I’ve been here, I’ve seen obvious plants all over these comments. They’ve failed to shut this down so far, would it be a stretch for them to try a new approach? Maybe gain some people’s trust & follow up with a lawsuit? I see some people, like Melanie & Brett, who make no effort to conceal their identity. I’ve seen others who hide theirs because they’ve been threatened with legal action. I don’t know what the end game would be, I just know when something feels off. And I think the service that this blog provides is too valuable for some RT or PC poser to come in & possibly bleed someone dry with well funded legal action.

    That’s all I’ll say about it & if I’m wrong, then Won knows it & won’t be afraid to share the rest of his story.

  12. Vogel permalink
    January 7, 2014 8:41 am

    Hi PJ — The story didn’t strike me as odd, and I’m normally as suspicious as they come. I don’t blame you for being skeptical though; like you said, we’ve been besieged by plants and trolls over the years. Let’s see how this one plays out.

  13. Melanie Morgan permalink
    January 7, 2014 8:59 am


    I mean no disrespect and am and advocate for listening to your gut feelings, also completely understand what your sayin, but I highly doubt he is a poser, this guy is legit, his story is dead on, not sure how or why even he could twist that in their scheming favor, lol. and his training is what helped him see; “I knew it was a scam right off the bat.” Not everyone is vulnerable and can be conned. 😦

    It doesn’t take much to spot a LIEFer for me., they are so predictable and are normally don’t have to say much before they are a dead give away; (they no longer have critical thinking and their language is extremely limited to their conditioned (indoctrination)…and those whom may try and pose at first any different or the more manipulative or better deceivers..well you need only some patience and give them enough rope…. 🙂

    I agree there are many people who are/have been asked or feel obligated out of ‘duty & loyalty’ to the dictating cult leaders whom clearly come here anonymously (when they call others nameless, faceless, haters, and cowards)…but then you only need remember QRUSH… they are hypocrites in every sense of the word. They are the real cowards and deceivers. Just wondering… What “Christian Principle” are they operating from?…..hmmm…can’t think of ONE and don’t think “deception” would be considered a good one! They still try and deceive those on here and no doubt Orrin and his co-conspirators want this site to vanish from the face of the earth. They need to ask the question: Why is there a need for this site at all?

    Funny in one sense but yet so hypocritical , (They cry give US Grace, forgiveness,freedom of speech biblical conflict resolution.. but that is reserved apparently ONLY FOR THEM, and ONLY when they are caught, otherwise it is ‘no one will no what we do’…and then law for everyone else,..

    Everyone of the co-conspirators I believe would do just about anything especially the dictators…whether it be unethical or immoral to help make that happen. They are and create paranoia and for good reason, they know every dirty deed, immoral and unethical thing they have done and do, and therefore, live in fear of all their skeletons coming out of the closet and am sure we don’t even know the half of it, so they live in fear of being caught! And someday we can hope..

    I could see if you said that about People like MNVF, good example, imo but highly doubt that will work with someone posing as the opposite; although certainly not above them. they have asked people to set others up with their dirty unethical plays, too.

    It just doesn’t work long term either way, especially on here too many have their number and their track record is impeccable lol… so then makes them too predictable.. …just not going to fool people here. 🙂

    Here is what I believe… the truth and it will always win…eventually every con game gets found out and every con makes a fatal error…then they get caught. Without a doubt these co-cons pirating cons are capable of what you say, they have proven their true character beyond a shadow of doubt over and over and no doubt they play dirty and are devious….real Christians uMMM…Not.

    But it’s to be expected, they are in the business of deception, they live in fear losing what they have taken from others… how else will their horrible, atrociously deceptive “business model” suck people in, if not for some good deception?

    And you can count on them and their dirty deeds; but they will do anything to appear righteous and convince the “followers” it is moral and ethical, (while what they do clearly isn’t) especially when they feel their ill gotten gains, power, and lifestyle are threatened,….. then they turn up the heat and their devious war tactics begin, they prepare and wait like the grim reaper for an opportune time and they will choose LAW…suits before they will ever choose “Grace & Conflict-Resolutions”…. You can learn more about someone from their past and history than anything else…that is why they are so desperate to white wash and “cover it up!”

  14. bewildered permalink
    January 7, 2014 11:19 am

    PJ – Since some of your concern comes from the fact that there were ‘two in a row’ stories similar in nature, I wonder if you are also skeptical of the one I told. It didn’t appear that you were based on your last comment in reply to my tale. But I would be happy to address any concerns you have. Amthrax has my real identity and we have exchanged emails off line on some of the subjects/players in my story. As for the ‘cliffhanger’ nature of my posts, I initially broke it into smaller pieces simply out of concern that it was too long, and to help organize my thoughts. The time gap between my posts was unintended. I’m sure your realize it isn’t easy to pen multi-page stories like this while balancing level of detail and readability. Bottom line is I think the Amthrax community should take ‘yes’ for an answer! And realize that even now, years later, the resources available on this board are available to help people avoid getting sucked in.

    “This is the 2nd person in a row who has come here with a defiant multi part, “I knew it was a scam right off the bat” story to tell.”

    This question of ‘knowing it’s a scam’ is very interesting to me and I’d like to stimulate some more discussion on it. First let me state for the record that I have been fooled multiple times in my life by these schemes. In brief (all time periods rough estimations):
    + Amway – 30+ years ago
    + Herbalife – 25+ years ago
    + NuSkin – 20 years ago

    Yes, I signed up for them all. I did nothing but lose money as a result (I didn’t have much to lose at the time so it was never financially devastating). I never REALLY believed in any of them so I was not a very good recruiter or salesman. So why did I sign up?
    + Desperation/greed (want to live the dream!)
    + Being lured by someone I respected (if they are doing it, it must be worthy)
    + Lack of critical thinking
    + Willful suspension of disbelief
    + Put all those together then ADD deceptive sales techniques and, voila, there’s a sucker born every minute

    As I mentioned in my original post, when I got the call from Mr. P regarding LIFE I asked him if it was an MLM. I told him I knew, beyond question, that I would not be successful in such an endeavor. He basically lied when he said ‘it has some of those elements but it’s different’. When I think about it, I didn’t really know at the time that virtually NO ONE would be successful in these endeavors. I just knew, from my prior experiences, that I would not. I did realize, mostly intuitively, that the odds were really stacked against a new recruit. I knew (somehow) that the ship had mostly sailed by the time I was being recruited. I knew/suspected that something was inherently wrong with these models but I still pinned most of my personal ‘lack of success’ on the fact that I just didn’t ‘do the work’. I always assumed that if I had been highly motivated, believed in the companies and stuck with it, that there was SOME level of success to be had. SOME residual income that could be earned if a person just….did the work. I had already concluded that (people like me) weren’t going to get RICH on these schemes, but I believed there was money to be made by people who didn’t hate it (like me). So let me be clear, I NEVER ‘did the work’.

    Anyway, when I went to the Tuesday meeting and saw the flip chart at the front of the room, I sauntered over to kill some time before the meeting started. What I saw there was flabbergasting. As I already mentioned, it was the IDS and, right there in black in white were numbers that clearly demonstrated that ALMOST NO ONE was making any money. I NEVER SUSPECTED IT WAS THAT BAD.

    And so I found Amthrax. I learned that it was ALL worse than I ever assumed. I learned that the people at the top of these schemes willfully and knowingly manipulate and mislead people. They go from scheme to scheme, move teams around, steal teams, give special favors to people at the top, all designed to maximize the pool of new suckers to pay fees and buy products to support their new ‘business’. I learned that the people in this PARTICULAR scheme have introduced the elements of Christianity, community and (some brand of) politics into the mix. But they do this KNOWING full well that the entire model is built on deception and selling false dreams. They KNOW that the only way to keep the enterprise afloat is to lie to people. And so they have introduced this whole concept of community and leadership to maximize the opportunity to take advantage of peoples desires and need to belong – and they do it in a very cult like fashion. Some might go so far as to call it evil.

  15. OUT permalink
    January 7, 2014 12:41 pm

    Tonight Orrin Woodward is speaking at a large meeting in in Southfield,MI. I hope that this in the one that WON is attending.

    I almost got suckered into this LIFE hype too, but now I have convinced myself and wife that it is a pryamid scheme and the likelyhood to make money is slim to nil.

    If you need solid information on pyrmaid schemes look at the Federal Trade Commission website or the Michigan Attorney General website. This LIFE leadership plays our verbatem on the FTC scam “warning signs”

  16. January 7, 2014 2:34 pm

    The last thing I want is to make someone feel attacked for sharing their experience. I’ll leave it to the Amthrax vets to sound the BS sirens.

  17. TruthSeeker permalink
    January 7, 2014 3:14 pm

    Great stuff @bewildered, thanks for sharing. You wrote, “I had already concluded that (people like me) weren’t going to get RICH on these schemes, but I believed there was money to be made by people who didn’t hate it (like me). So let me be clear, I NEVER ‘did the work’.”

    To be honest with you, it wouldn’t matter if you ‘did the work’ or not, the results would be the same.

  18. January 7, 2014 5:27 pm

    PJ – It’s good to be skeptical and to ask questions. That’s one of the benefits of this forum; pros and cons can be discussed in a fair and open manner.

    In this case, I’m giving Won the benefit of the doubt. The story so far seems pretty accurate and believable to me.

  19. switch permalink
    January 8, 2014 8:08 am

    LOL!!!! Oh man, doesn’t get any better than this…..Won absolutely smoked them!

    This story is absolutely mint…..I love it!

  20. January 8, 2014 9:37 am

    It seems like one key point here is that Won has some actual, real life, quality sales training, which is something most of us probably lacked when we were prospected (I know I didn’t have any). Those of us who aren’t in sales are easy prey. Won, on the other hand, knows the tricks of the sales trade and is able to toy with these low-LIFE cultists. He is spot on in his evaluation of the Team “process” and I find myself rooting for him to beat them at their own game. I wish I would have been smart enough to do the same!

  21. Melanie Morgan permalink
    January 8, 2014 11:57 am

    Platinum Blond~

    Agreed and the biggest issue for us was the low-lifers gained and then abused our TRUST!

    Switch~ Please pass the popcorn! LOL Happy New Year!

  22. switch permalink
    January 9, 2014 7:36 am

    you want extra butter, Melanie?

    Here’s an idea for a t-shirt…..could you imagine a whole section wearing these shirts at a major? Now we all know the real reason why they changed their name to LIEf. 🙂

  23. Melanie Morgan permalink
    January 9, 2014 9:12 am


    LOL…genius! Patten that and make it the new logo, you could turn that into a BIG “business opportunity!” hahaha! 🙂

  24. Melanie Morgan permalink
    January 9, 2014 9:22 am

    Great Idea….You could be the T-shirt designer of multiple different pattened logos….you awesome!

    We could recruit and advertise outside the majors, with permanent markers so they could sign our shirts… lol….>

    Seriously now…great Idea…T-shirts and coffee mugs with the Petition on it, sell them on here too…… and all proceeds go to the cause and those who get sued by these gangstas! 🙂

  25. The Truth Hurts permalink
    January 9, 2014 9:49 am

    Gangsta is an apt term.

    I am not getting a BS alert from Won’s tale. Rather, I was recruited much the same way. They tend to go after more successful people, because they fell that will give them more credibility. I can almost hear what the group was saying on the ride back home..”man this one will be one of our BIG GUYS”, or “this Guy is gonna be my diamond” sickening to think about, isn’t it?

    Actually, the only thing is this “business” I can compare to a Diamond is this; diamonds are incredibly hard substances, so are your teeth, but after the stress of finding out you are pounding sand in the biz, and you are best friends with the Addams Family, your hard teeth will probably break off from sheer stress alone.

    I always ask myself, “what is the Biz about” what is the end product? I cannot find a concrete answer. When I was in the Biz, and was being lulled by smoke and mirrors, I am not sure I still would have been able to actually say what value the Biz brought to the table, when it came right down to it. And speaking about smoke and mirrors, I have another thought about that. It is not only smoke and mirrors technique, but also morons. Smoke mirrors and morons.

    Is this marketing, or a Manipulative Liars Membership? Now that is another T shirt for Miss Melanie to market..I agree with you Melanie..people will by a pet rock, salad heads of famous, you name it. I do think we could have a great T shirt with a Bull on the front taking a dump with a big red X over its hind end that said “say no to Manipulative Liars Membership.”

    I can only say that anyone who comes to this Forum for help will get help from all of us here that truly care. If this is your first time here, welcome. We too have been called quitters and losers, yet we have gained back our self respect, and our normal life since having the guts to walk away. A Band of Brothers..yep, we are a band of people who care on this Site, so for the first timer here, welcome to the rest of your GOOD LIFE.

  26. Melanie Morgan permalink
    January 9, 2014 9:52 am

    I would even use my bestie ‘sales skills’ and wear my designer t-shirt everywhere…stop people at the local grocer, pizza joint, mall, churches, post office, crack house….the possibilities are endless…”If you Dream it you can achieve it!”… might even hand out a few cd’s (for a price of course) … bargin price you can’t get anywhere else…@ 10 bucks a crack …proceeds for the first 10 cds tiny-tiny print… go to a good cause… (must be in very fine print, you’ll need a magnifying glass to read and of course we won’t mention we pocket the rest) and don’t tell them we get them for 3 cents a piece! AND they could get in on the “ground floor” with us…ya know it is a “LEVEL PLAYING FIELD” (but we control and change the deal anytime we feel like it without their consent)…. have a boat load of inventory (shirts) all for the low price of 49.99…..just for YOU (the newbie sucker)…. for the lowest prices ever..> special deal of the day!

    Who knows we could even start a national ugly t-shirt day….LOL

    Get those creative juices flowin! Ok I’m done, lol

    Still think it would be a great idea with the petition and coffee mugs! 🙂

  27. Melanie Morgan permalink
    January 9, 2014 9:56 am

    Great post The Truth Hurts! 🙂

  28. Melanie Morgan permalink
    January 9, 2014 10:38 am

    Please forgive my twitches they only come out in fun now….on a “positive” note…and after a long hiatus, shock and thrust back into the real world… and learning the truth,… tons of recollection, reflecting, pain, suffering, being around great supportive people and flow of much hindsight… seems my brain could be returning to a more normal state (whatever normal… at least where ever it got (re)routed to…. during the indoctrinating cult experience, seems to be reversing and subsiding…Thank God! 🙂

    So now back on task and speaking of the “apt term” Gangsta, notice how it is playing out in Won’s story?

  29. Melanie Morgan permalink
    January 9, 2014 11:39 am

    Did you guys remember what happens to you when you listen to 4,5,6 cd’s per day?

    For all those who don’t know what that is like; allow me to explain… mind shifts invincible “high” (believe you are Rocky or Brave Heart lol) or fits the description this is “your brain on drugs” …it causes lunacy,social retardation, and fanaticism…the only uncontrollable language comes out… is teamisms…this Should be a required warning on the cd’s. Those who have experienced this know…. I’m not joking.

  30. Won permalink
    January 12, 2014 5:58 am


    I’m sorry for the delay. I was in the hospital for a while regarding a medical condition that sometimes causes me trouble. I’ll be plenty ok, nothing life-threatening, just a bit of a hassle for my personal schedule, not to mention a good bit of discomfort!

    I will finish with my experience as soon as I am able to. My mind is in a thousand other places, for obvious reasons, and I want to be as clear as possible when I relate my “last-stand” at the monthly meeting, lol.

    Keep in mind, I use part of this experience in sales training now, partly to exemplify particular retail “no no’s,” and partly to keep the laughter of the group up.

    On another note, I read through the comments on this thread. I was a little humored by a couple – no need for tin foil hats, guys. I don’t have near enough time to sit down for three hours and write out an entire account of how much of an annoyance LIFE has been (wouldn’t that be such a draining evening, lol!)

    Anyway, I’d like to bring up a huge point regarding MLM’s, and why I feel it is astoundingly important. There exists something called an “Income Disclosure Statement” in the world of business that many public officials, charities, and pretty much anyone/thing under any kind of possible scrutiny has to disclose to the public. Many MLM’s have these online, somewhere, often requiring a brief web search to find a current printing.

    This statement, in short, illustrates how much in earnings a company makes, and who receives said earnings. Think revenue and distribution.

    I won’t go into huge detail about the IDS process, as this website has a very good article I recently noticed on LIFE’s Income Disclosure Statement, as well as a very astute run-down of the statistics contained in said IDS.

    But, to anyone who may have been “prospected” by this MLM, or any other for that matter, and this is the first you’ve read about MLM’s outside what they told you during the initial “greet,” I strongly suggest you head straight to the Income Disclosure Statement for LIFE, and Amthrax’s analysis of it, on this website. It is beyond required reading, and will surely answer any questions you have on how slim a chance you have in LIFE to actually make a profit, let alone break even.

    With pyramid selling companies, there is always a huge promise of bountiful monetary compensation, often coupled with a mixed phrase that sounds something like “As long as you follow the easy steps we give you, you’ll have no trouble making this money!”

    Ok, that’s lovely enough! If one reads the rules of any game of chance at a casino, with 100 dollars, they too have a possibility at winning a million dollars, lol. The odds for either are very similar. There’s a reason economists don’t play the lottery.

  31. January 12, 2014 11:28 am

    Won, I wish you a speedy recovery. I apologize for the unwarranted skepticism & I look forward to hearing more.

  32. Chrisxrascal permalink
    January 13, 2014 1:56 am

    I haven’t been on here for a while. Won, your posts hit the nail on the head! Keep posting! There’s still hope for people caught in this scheme! Again I’ll ask the question because it would be interesting to know, is Team(life) still talking about going to a million? If they are,..are they any closer to a million..Oh and are they talking about all going to Life Island on yachts? ..swim out Orrin says in his one cd.the problem most people would drown..Thanks Orrin..I’ll never forget that cd and how ridiculous it was…

  33. Melanie Morgan permalink
    January 13, 2014 7:59 am


    I too wish you a speedy recovery. You have these guys pegged and sure your “last- stand” will proof and provide more humor and more importantly a clear account of the same shady techniques and tactics they teach and use from their MLM handbook. Thanks for your time!

  34. Won permalink
    January 13, 2014 8:13 am

    PJ – It’s ok. No harm done. In any sleuth’s credit, “Won” is a pseudonym, and the email I use to post is a reader address. I apologize to anyone for not being 100% open or naming names. It’s easiest to relate an experience without using targeted specifics because it allows the full account to be told with no fear of libel/slander backlash or whatever contrived methods may be used, whether they have warrant or not. It’s not my first rodeo, lol. And it’s the quickest way “good guys” shoot themselves in the foot.

    I also believe in redemption.

    If any of the mentors or pontiffs in LIFE I met read this website and my comments, which I would assume to be relatively likely as any good businessman ought to become well-versed in their objections, I do hope they have a moment to think over their situations, if they haven’t already, and possibly get a running start toward a new and healthy life.

    Chrisxrascal – I’m unsure if the “going to a million” thing is still relevant. Regarding membership, they were insanely vague, even after I pulled out the IDS during the monthly, lol. Always, though, the membership goal and growth rate was described with a filler phrase such as “I’ve never seen a company or organization grow as fast as LIFE has.”

    Well, duh, if you change an organization’s name and make all the members start fresh, and consequently start that as your “launch point,” of course it’s going to reflect a high, seemingly exponential, growth pattern, lol!

    I do my homework, lol.

    I cared very little about the nonsense they tried to convey to me. I was more interested, while they spoke, in the manner they presented their points, and if they expressed confidence in what they said. I was surprised that a solid majority of the LIFE mentors, and whomever else they put in front of me, either convinced themselves to believe the mantra, or chose on their own freewill to believe the mantra.

    Some, I would imagine, believe the mantra on the basis they’ve gone so deep into this organization, over so many years, into a bottomless pit of never-ending, always fresh and changing, hope of monetary freedom. It tends to become second nature, a muscle memory to the psyche, even when contradicting actions are observed.

  35. Won permalink
    January 13, 2014 8:22 am

    Melanie M. – Appreciation. I had a good laugh at that monthly, and it’s been a healthy (rather reoccurring) burst of humor at work, as well as with my friends, for some time now.

    What I did was quite simple.

    I, and a few men who work for me, pulled together a pile of data on LIFE, it’s timeline, it’s leadership, the leadership’s history, past issues of governmental (or media) scrutiny, and so forth. Blah blah blah, I won’t bore everyone with these details, as I’ve found this website has a huge compilation of such, but it sure amounted to be a landfill sized heap!

    And when delivering my message, I was a bit of a pain at the monthly meeting, to be modest. I was the only one in the room not sweating or uncomfortable.

    But, that is how you drive a point home. An audience is not an audience unless they’re at the edge of their seat, have no idea where the plot is going, and have equally less of an idea who to root for!

  36. switch permalink
    January 14, 2014 4:48 pm

    here’s another one I picked out for the O-SHOW.

  37. Melanie Morgan permalink
    January 14, 2014 9:30 pm


    Perfect! You are so good…lol 🙂


    Haha, love your last paragraph….I am on the edge of my seat, lol! So guessing it worked for this audience too. 🙂

  38. freedomhaha permalink
    January 29, 2014 7:19 am

    Won- Thank you for what you have done. You have not only potentially saved the lives of those around you, but also hundreds that will stumble upon your post after seeing it on here.

  39. Laura permalink
    January 29, 2014 1:58 pm

    Does anyone know if Life sells anything more that CDs and books?

  40. Isaac permalink
    January 30, 2014 6:13 am

    Just wanted to share one of the best quotes I’ve ever read about the problem with multilevel marketing:

    “When the primary value and purpose of a marketing operation is in recruiting rather than in enjoying the product itself, loyalty to the product and process is going to be tenuous and temporary.”

    Interestingly, the quote comes from a blog entry addressing the topics of worship and evangelism:

    In the last four years that I’ve been free from TEAM, it’s fascinating now to see the similarities with TEAM/LIFE and some activities in the Christian “church”. As a Christian myself, it’s scary to think about how easily I was manipulated by TEAM/LIFE and I’m so thankful that God has brought me back to a firm foundation.

  41. freedomhaha permalink
    February 3, 2014 9:50 am

    Isaac- Thank you so much for sharing. I echoed your sentiments whole heartedly. It sickens me to the core that I actually sold this business to people as a “Christian business” when in fact it couldn’t be more opposite. I still feel so guilty about the people that I have wronged (showed the plan) that I continue to fight to save people on here over two years after I have become free from the cult that is TEAM.

    I would encourage you to share your story on here if you have not already. It will help others, especially people of faith, that are wrapped up in the same mess that you and I were in not so long ago.

  42. February 5, 2014 8:20 pm

    MLM victimizes people with no business knowledge or experience. 20 years ago I drank the koolaid for many years. Now that I have been around the block with several different industries and many business models, I can honestly say that most MLM models are pathetic, laughable. I feel sorry for 99% of them. 99% LOSE money. I spent 50 grand in Team. What a joke. Made hundreds of thousands in insurance and other legit industries. Team and other MLM’s will ALWAYS exaggerate or lie because of their pitiful model and attrition rate, If they were honest and transparent, no one would join. I actually even feel sorry for the guru’s and/or PC’s. They are slaves to their wealth because of how they treat people. As Jesus said: “What profit is it to a man to gain the whole world but lose his own soul?” It doesn’t do any good to study leadership if your business model itself treats people like crap; herding them like cattle into meetings and sucking money out of them. Next time you see a 14 year old behind the counter at McDonalds or a bag boy at the grocery store, just understand he is doing far better than 99% of mlm’ers. ANY business model is better than that. Don’t let the large meeting cult crap get into your head. Your wealth will come from YOUR thinking, NOT some guru’s. The secret to wealth is obtaining a Biblical world view, then learning and applying God’s principles of serving, sewing and reaping, over and over (with legit models). Lol.

  43. TruthSeeker permalink
    February 6, 2014 9:19 pm

    Dale, you have to be one of the smartest folks to have ever graced the pages of this blog. Hear, hear!

  44. Former Round Table permalink
    February 7, 2014 5:42 am

    Well said, Dale!

  45. February 11, 2014 10:09 pm

    Thanks for the compliments. But all I ever did was struggle and work hard. Its amazing when you do that with a business that actually works. There are a lot of companies that will actually pay you to sell something legitimate. Imagine that. You won’t have to pay to work for them like with Team. Its like once you put down three bats (a crap business that drains you) and swing one bat (a good business with products or services that people actually need), you end up knocking it out of the park. I encourage anyone screwed by Team or any MLM to just find something legitimate, something YOU actually believe in. Then the results Team talks about actually happen for YOU. I would take some the stuff they taught (like being persistent and don’t quit), and applied it to businesses that actually worked. So, I guess they get some credit, though it cost me 50 grand to finally wake up. Too bad Orrin can’t wake up that his model stinks. And a million people (which will never happen) won’t change that. He would just have about 999,000 people losing money, a massive blog on this site, and maybe an FTC shut down.

    Hey Former Round Table, did he ever actually say WHY he wants to go to a million? Is there some euphoric paradise waiting on the horizon? To ‘Fix’ the country? To ‘Save’ the country? What Biblical basis backs up his theory? Also Did anyone ever ask him if it took 10 years to get to 10,000 (and barely holding), what was his PLAN to get to a million? 10,000 NEW people for 100 years (maybe his kids finish his goal for him by age 90)? 100,000 NEW people for 10 years? Does anyone ever confront him on the koolaid he is drinking and dishing out?

  46. freedomhaha permalink
    February 12, 2014 7:05 am

    Dale- I believe he has less than three years to get it done according to his announcement at the LIFE launch. Sadly I was there when he said that and everyone went nuts. I didn’t quite spend 50K, but I did spend cash that I didn’t have at the time to chase a dream that doesn’t exist for 99.9%.

  47. Former Round Table permalink
    February 12, 2014 9:35 am

    The reason Orrin chose 1 million people was purely psychological. He read some book that said you need to pick a huge, audacious goal that a crowd could rally around, say it out loud, and repeat it often. If you get buy in from the crowd, they will work to make it happen AND they will fear that they will be left behind if they don’t.

    The funny part is that Orrin first made the claim at an open meeting in January 2000. They were supposed to get to a million by the end of THAT decade. Now here we are in 2014…

  48. switch permalink
    February 12, 2014 1:53 pm

    $50,000,…..Good God!

  49. switch permalink
    February 12, 2014 2:13 pm

    Dale said- “Next time you see a 14 year old behind the counter at McDonalds or a bag boy at the grocery store, just understand he is doing far better than 99% of mlm’ers.”

    This is so true and the thought of them sinking their claws into young high school grads is truly sickening.

  50. February 12, 2014 9:21 pm

    I spoke to a good friend of mine today who is still very active in Team/Life. I never try to discourage him. I know he is making some money (he is a RT). I will not mention his name. But I asked him what was Orrin’s plan for 1 million. His response was 1,000 Life Coaches. I am not sure what a life coach is. But there is currently four, and about 12 to 15 thousand at the latest major. Dreaming big can be a good thing, but not when there is a huge disconnect from reality (see John Maxwell’s Thinking for a Change pg 121). Then it creates a delusional effect. Also, the Bible in the book of James 4:13-16 states: “Come now, you who say, “Today or tomorrow we will go into such and such a town and spend a year there and trade and make a profit”— yet you do not know what tomorrow will bring. What is your life? For you are a mist that appears for a little time and then vanishes. Instead you ought to say, “If the Lord wills, we will live and do this or that.” As it is, you boast in your arrogance. All such boasting is evil.”

    And this is why I believe Orrin is not succeeding in his pursuit 1 million, because it is sinful boasting. He instead should ask what the Lord’s will is. The Lord is quite clear over and over that His Church will prevail, and the gates of hell will not prevail against it (Matt 16:18). Orrin’s error is trying to use a business instead. It ain’t gonna happen. Anyway, pray for him and the rest. I believe they are really trying to do right, but lost in their ways.

  51. freedomhaha permalink
    February 13, 2014 6:36 pm

    Dale- 12 to 15k at the last major would be a huge upturn would it not?

  52. switch permalink
    February 13, 2014 8:35 pm

    Dale said- “I believe they are really trying to do right, but lost in their ways.”

    I’ve always wondered how many of O’s cronies have admitted to the damage they’ve done but don’t have the balls because of having their heads so far up O’s ass to do so?

  53. switch permalink
    February 13, 2014 8:37 pm

    Like previously stated…’s 2014 and the Lifer count is how many?????


  54. Brent Hansen permalink
    February 14, 2014 4:46 pm

    Dale, I really appreciate your observation and comments. Your comments are an accurate portrayal of what I experienced from being involved with both Legacy and Team for an accumulated 12 years.

    I’m sorry to read that you lost $50,000, but consider yourself lucky, I lost five times that amount, and saw many others do the same.

    Glad as well that you haven’t given up hope, and have become successful in your own rights. Thanks for sharing.

  55. February 15, 2014 9:47 am

    Brent, wow thats alot of lost money. Sorry to hear that. What they just don’t get is that people losing money IS the problem. Every other thing people complain about is a direct result of that crappy mlm model just sucking money away month after month, year after year. I spoke with my RT friend again about this. He immediately became defensive about Orrin, protecting him. What I tried to explain that in a free market, the customer is king. And if you don’t have any, or don’t serve them, people leave. Its that simple. But I think what happens is the cult brainwashing thing takes over their thinking. Its very difficult to break out of, which is why you lost so much money. Its very insidious, and quite sad, which is why I won’t do or endorse about 99.9% of mlm’s. I tried to also suggest to my friend that to fix the problem (trying to offer an actual solution) was that everyone has to get 10 or 20 CUSTOMERS before they are allowed to sponsor anyone, and if people struggle to even do even that, time to take a look at the product and replace it with something that people will buy WITHOUT the hype. Customers buying products. Imagine that. Anyway, we will see if it gets anywhere. But I won’t hold my breath. I guess once even one person becomes a millionaire at something, people act like sheep and just follow whatever he says, regardless of the thousands they are personally losing. It takes time to mature and think for yourself to break out of that. Anyway thanks everyone for sharing.

  56. confused permalink
    February 16, 2014 6:35 pm

    Former Round Table how long were you a RT and is there really money at that position?

  57. freedomhaha permalink
    February 17, 2014 6:02 am

    Dale- If the product would sell on the open market they wouldn’t ever need an MLM, so I don’t think requiring a customer amount before you start would ever work in my opinion.

  58. Dale Hansen permalink
    February 17, 2014 8:19 pm

    There are some decent mlms that require clients before recruiting. They are usually much quieter, not needing to shout from the hilltops bcuz they make money, so they don’t need to shout about it. Actually most sales companies have a hierarchy structure with sales to customers as the foundation, the way it should be. Managers receive overrides for there sales people’s sales. It works great. What most mlms do though is skip the customer part and just recruit. So the recruits become the customers. They just don’t know it, at least until they loose significant sums of money before waking up. Sorry to hear about the lawsuit. Maybe some good can come out of it.

  59. The Truth Hurts permalink
    February 18, 2014 9:38 am


    I remember years ago, I heard the above advice that would change my LIFE…we need a few critics, indeed. Hearing those words from stage, about needing critics, eventually got me thinking, and, in the end, stopped my painful journey which brought me debt and delusions about who were actually my friends, and not just users. WE NEED A FEW CRITICS, those words changed my life, thankfully. Those wonderful words allowed me to come out of the fog I had lived in while in the particular “business” I had joined. I started looking at critics, what they had to say, and realized they had been on the same journey as me, and they were free. To the Critics that had the guts to post on the Internet..THANK YOU. Your caring and concerned saved my financial bacon from further damage. Knowing others had experienced the same manipulation was valuable to me. I am so grateful to THOSE CRITICS!

    This Site has a few critics, but anyone on the Internet has a critic at some point. Critics are a good thing, they should kick in your thinking and analysis skills. If any business you are involved in is afraid of a few critics, stop, employ your critical thinking skills, analyze.

    This Site is filled with People that post stories about how their lives were negatively impacted by a particular business they were involved with and recruited into. The bottom line is simply this;

    Are you better off financially now than you were when you entered the particular business you are/were in? If not why? Would your time have been spent better elsewhere, like working a job with benefits, and a regular paycheck?

    Employ your critical thinking skills, look at your finances, not what others are telling you to think and do. If anyone ever tells you “if the dream is big enough, the facts don’t matter” this is seriously skewed thinking as the facts always matter.

    Dreams are great, but reality determines food on the table, heat in your house, a car to drive, etc.

    After your obligations are met, dreams are great to go after, but is it a reasonable dream?

    Have you developed a sound Business Plan to achieve your dream?

    How will you fund your new Business?

    How long will your new Business take to become profitable? Are you showing continued losses? How do you plan to change this?

    The definition of insanity is doing the same over and over again and expecting different results. Look around you; are the People you started into business with still involved, if not, why not? Did they quit from lack of profits? Why did they quit? Employ your thinking skills!

    And remember this, the Devil can quote Scripture for his own purpose. Do not be deceived.

  60. TruthSeeker permalink
    February 19, 2014 6:59 am

    @TheTruthHurts way to logical there! Critical thinking and common sense, how novel. Great post!

  61. freedomhaha permalink
    February 19, 2014 8:36 am

    The Truth Hurts- You name really nails this business. Either not knowing the truth hurts us, or when we figure out the truth (as will will eventually do in this business) that really hurts us too.

    So happy to be free and thankful for all the people that dedicate their time to save others lives on here.

  62. Isaac permalink
    February 28, 2014 7:54 am

    For those of you that are interested, I found some fascinating audio that illustrates the dangers of “vision casting” and people blindly following leadership. The audio is referencing this danger within the Christian church, but you could insert LIFE into the context and it would sound exactly the same. Here are a few quotes from one of the speakers in this video trying to point out the dangers of this:

    “They’re inculcating a culture of ideologues and demagogues.”

    “These visionary leaders are taught and trained…you don’t under ANY circumstances tolerate ANY opposition to the vision.”

    “You cannot under any circumstances challenge the vision or the leader.”

    You can find the video here:

    The whole video is worth listening to, but if you just have a few minutes, fast forward to minute 29 of the video and listen for 5-10 minutes. Some of the examples they reference sound eerily similar to what I heard at TEAM/LIFE functions – it’s all about the Leader’s vision, any critics need to be silenced, etc, etc.

  63. Analyze and think!! permalink
    April 15, 2014 7:40 am

    *sigh* *sigh****** my husband has unfortunately joined this steaming pile of crapola “business” he has asked me to support him. I told him I will do no such thing. When it comes to the mlm schemes and the delusions of grandeur he is very compulsive and has no discernment when it comes to analyzing and thinking critically about far reaching financial and social consequences. The more I research on my own and read about this disgusting duplicitous company the more I become disconnected from him. I love him but I hate the poor choices he makes when I comes to these things. He is already spending time away from home due to these “meetings.” we don’t discuss it because it causes huge arguments and streaming matches. My husband isn’t formally educated, I am working on masters degree in public health now and almost done with it. He thinks I’ll never have to work again if he does this “business.” ** eye roll*** I guess I just need some suggestions on how to deal with it. I’d love to hear feedback as to how to go about navigating this predicament. Any info is helpful. Thanks in advance.

  64. freedomhaha permalink
    April 16, 2014 9:17 am

    Analyze- You have come to the right place. In your comments you hit on one of the worst things that this business causes; divisiveness. While I am not married I did lose, or damaged, a good amount of friendships because of this business. We have people on here that will help you out more with your specific situation but rest assured they will help you as they helped me. For free.

  65. Vogel permalink
    April 16, 2014 5:24 pm

    A&T said: “He thinks I’ll never have to work again if he does this “business.” ** eye roll***”

    Eesh! You have my sympathy. The truth is, you will have to work HARDER to make up for the losses he will incur (notice I didn’t say “might” incur — it’s a certainty). The real question is how much money are you willing to let him squander. If you set mutually agreed upon limits, then you can look at it as though it’s entertainment money being thrown away at the craps tables in Vegas.But keep in mind that if he gets in deep, he will be shelling out thousands of dollars per year on this losing venture. He could cause you irreparable financial harm. That’s just the financial damage — the deeper he gets into it, the more time he will devote to meetings and the more insufferable he will become — like a brainwashed cult member. The cult will try try to pit him against you too, because all they really care about is continuing to get his (i.e, your) money. He will likely grow resentful of you for not being “supportive”, and may even blame you for his failure.

    For me, this would be a deal-breaker. A decision like this should be mutual, not unilateral. It’s a wicked and harmful endeavor that you shouldn’t be dragged into against your will. If I were in your shoes, I would explain my position thoroughly, and if simple logic didn’t get through to him, I would give an ultimatum — LIFE or your wife? That decision should be easy to make if he has an ounce of respect.

  66. noteam permalink
    April 16, 2014 6:07 pm

    Anaylze & Think – Make sure to monitor expenses. One year before joining up with TEAM/LIFE/Orrin Woodward, I had a zero balance on my credit card. After racking up over $40,000 worth of credit card debt on tools, seminars, books, gas, hotels, major functions, I ended up declaring bankruptcy shortly after leaving TEAM/LIFE/Orrin Woodward.

    Just my opinion, but I would be willing to bet there are hundreds and hundreds if not thousands of people who have declared bankruptcy over the past few years as a sole result of their time with this scam.

    For every one person who is making $10,000 or more net a year, there are hundreds and hundreds who have lost thousands of dollars, racked up credit card debt, and/or declared bankruptcy. This group has done more harm to more people than any group I have personally witnessed.

  67. freedomhaha permalink
    April 17, 2014 4:56 am

    The difference is that we can back up our financial stories with fact. All the numbers reported on here can be put right into the financial model to make sense. Mr. Woodward’s numbers though, fail to add up. Pardon the pun.

  68. Analyze and think permalink
    April 17, 2014 9:17 pm

    HI Vogel,
    You are absolutely correct! The behaviors have already started. He has been spending more and more time away from home and has tried to get me to buy into the system and attend meetings with him to which I told him I will do no such thing. I told him to show spreadsheets of his expenses so I can see a detailed record of his success, He said no that he would rather not do that. I gave him three months and if I didn’t see a substantial profit of any kind then he has to quit it—no questions asked. I am just perturbed about how to handle the emotional side of things. I feel that he is already being brainwashed beyond the point of no return. He joined this “business” without even asking me btw!

  69. exTEAMster permalink
    April 18, 2014 8:37 pm

    ANALYZE & THINK…. My wife and I recently ended our efforts to build a LIFE business. We were keeping pretty detailed expense/income records for tax purposes. After a little more than two years, we found that we had spent almost $11,000 on books, CDs, meetings and seminars. Our earnings were less than $700, and most of that was commission earned from our own PV (personal product volume).

    What finally convinced us to leave? Besides swimming in red ink, it became obvious to us that the LIFE business model is flawed. Convincing people to read hardcopy books and purchase compact discs in an age of eBooks and digital downloads is not easy.

    Even if you can do it, by the end of six months of receiving a “grab bag” of books and CDs, most people feel like they have all the stuff they need. Eventually, they’ll also realize they can get similar materials for a fraction of the price online. So the product line itself does not lend itself to repeat business.

    So your customer base is going to have a very high turnover rate. Which means the only real way to build a business is by recruiting others to join the business. To do that, you only need to convince them to pay to attend a meeting that starts every Tuesday night at 8 o’clock (boy is that convenient), features the same basic content each week, and commit 4-6 hours one Saturday a month to listen to a lecture. Just the meetings alone will run $80 per month per person, or $160 a month per couple. And it will be like pulling teeth to get anyone to be willing to come with you.

    Add in the tools, subscriptions, etc., and be prepared to spend $200-$400 a month to run your business. And to attend the two or three Conferences per year, figure on another $600 per person per event, by the time you figure in the cost of tickets, lodging, transportation, food, etc.

    That’s a lot to invest in a business that most people can’t understand when you try to explain it to them, and that’s before the time you’ll need to commit to the reading of books, listening to CDs, attending meetings, etc. And to be honest, after two years, the only people we had met who were making money in LIFE had earned most of their money from TEAM/MonaVie/Quixtar/Amway and whatever else Orrin Woodward and Chris Brady had been doing before forming LIFE.

    Make sure your spouse looks over the Income Disclosure Statement carefully, and have him read Amthrax’s analysis of that data. He should know the harsh reality of the numbers behind the business before jumping in and running after his dream.

  70. April 18, 2014 11:01 pm

    exTeamster – I think this was your first comment. Welcome to the community. Curious to learn more about your experiences building the LIFE business. Consider sending me your answers to the ex-TEAM/LIFE Q&A. There are others who may benefit from hearing more about why you left TEAM/LIFE.

  71. Melanie Morgan permalink
    April 19, 2014 7:21 am

    Analyze and think!!~

    We understand all to well, your frustration and it is difficult because unfortunately you are now in a battle for your spouses mind! The “system” is extremely effective at creating the “us vs them” (no matter who the opposing “them” is; spouse, pastors, parents, siblings etc, it’s sick when these guys get their grips on others minds,(that is their main game) as I believe you are fully aware. Hang in there, stand firm!

    Get an “agreement” that the “business” cannot interfere or trump any major family event in your life…YOU..FAMILY first!! and no cd’s allowed when your in the car or at home!! The more you can get him to ‘miss’ and be removed from the “system”..> indoctrination & association, during those 3 months,(he won’t be giving up easy!) the better your chances of winning the battle of his mind!Believe it or not your situation is so common, it’s disturbing. Good LUCK!! I wish you the best, keep us posted and thanks for sharing!

  72. Melanie Morgan permalink
    April 19, 2014 7:26 am


    Welcome! I second Amthrax, PLEASE share your story on Q/A! It isn’t often people “see” the truth by logically looking at the most important aspect, ROI!! Wish I was so bright! Thanks for your comments!

    Now, will someone please convince me what is so “different” and has changed, since they were with Amway! LOL

  73. exTEAMster permalink
    April 19, 2014 7:34 pm

    Yes, Amthrax, that was my first post. I have been thinking of posting our story for a while but have been hesitant because we have another close family member who is very active in LIFE and do not want to share too much of our story for fear that she or her upline would recognize our story and create any trouble. When the time is right, I will share our story. most of my complaints regarding LIFE are business specific. I would have no problem remaining friends with anyone I met in our upline.

    Amxthrax, you and the other regular posters on here do a great job of explaining the flaws of the LIFE program and leadership. Your criticisms are not only accurate, they don’t come off as inflammatory just for the sake of p—ing people off. I had known of this blog but was unwilling to look at it because I just assumed it was by people who had a grudge with Orrin. Wish I had been more open to looking at things from this point of view.

  74. TruthSeeker permalink
    April 19, 2014 8:10 pm

    exTEAMster, good luck getting your upline to have a real relationship/friendship with you. After 12 years of spending thousands of hours together, traveling all over North America, and building very intimate relationships with our “upline”, they dropped us like a hot potato the minute we confronted them with reality.

    Relationships with these schmucks is based on what they can get from you, or convince you to do. Once you begin to think independently and critically, you become a threat to their make believe business and make believe life.

    I am a bit disappointed though that you don’t think some of our comments are inflammatory, I purposely do my best to piss people like orrin and the rest of those losers off, while remaining within the boundaries set by Amthrax.

    Your logic about the “tools” is amazing, looking forward to reading your entire story. 🙂

  75. freedomhaha permalink
    April 21, 2014 5:05 am

    exTEAMster- Congrats on your decision!! Freedom is sweet!

  76. Melanie Morgan permalink
    April 21, 2014 6:16 pm


    Your comments are so on and we have had a similar experience! BTW~ Your 3 paragraph, LOL you crack me up!

  77. Analyze and Think! permalink
    April 27, 2014 5:59 am

    Thanks for the information. It’s been most helpful and quite an interesting read indeed. But alas, the information I present to my husband falls on deaf ears. He tries to rule the household using his flawed ideals which he derives from the CDs but of course me being the personality type that I am, I quickly have to shut down his arguments as I will not tolerate that nonsensical behavior in my house or around my child. He tries to get me to listen to the CDs in the car and convince me that the horseshit being taught is the truth and will eventually set us financially free. I’m beyond frustrated at this point and really want to leave him until he understand this is not a game nor a venture that will put us in the black. after he works his other job he then drives another 2 hours with his “leader” to talk to others about the business. That’s time he could’ve been spending with us. The more he does this the less I feel close to him. I looked at the income disclosure statement. It was somewhat confusing. Just wanted to know if anyone can give me the cliff note explanation of this. Thanks again for the support.

  78. April 27, 2014 8:31 am

    @Analyze and Think! – We performed an analysis of the IDS when it was first released last year:

    While LIFE has since updated the compensation plan, I do not think it has updated the IDS.

  79. Analyze and think! permalink
    May 1, 2014 3:46 pm

    Amthrax, Thanks for the information. Can you also give the breakdown of an MLM vs. a job in corporate America? My dear hubby seems to think that they are both one and the same. I studied both business models briefly in undergraduate but I want to be able to explain this to my husband in the utmost clear and precise manner. Thanks guys!! any information is helpful. I really enjoy this website and the thoughtful yet helpful information which I have been given so far. LOVE IT!!!

  80. May 1, 2014 6:51 pm

    I would read this article from MLM Myth:

    MLM-proponents often call corporate America a pyramid scheme. They don’t understand that corporate America is simply a hierarchical organization and not an illegal scheme with endless recruiting.

  81. The Truth Hurts permalink
    May 5, 2014 11:42 am

    Welcome to Analyze and Think and exTEAMster!

    Greetings to you both! You have come to the right place to heal and be able to spill your guts to people who have been down the very painful road you now currently tread upon.

    I know we all ask ourselves why did we not see the real deal, the TRUTH behind the smoke and mirrors, the divide and conquer mentality, the whole sordid mess. There are very valid reasons we all went for a real bad ride; plain and simple, the truth was hidden from us by master manipulators and deceivers, far more skilled at things we never want to be skilled at, if you see what I mean. I cannot think of anyone I would like to emulate or edify LESS.

    I know many people who were actually in a pretty good spot financially, until certain heathens and charlatans convinced them they were basically idiots for working a J O B. Now, looking at it from the advantage of distance, huh? Since when is honorably working to support your Family at a J O B a bad thing? Yet many were made to feel they were silly, lazy, etc. for working at a J O B. Do you want to be job optional? they were asked. Just thinking back to these days makes me wince inside.

    The two of you get it, the real deal.

    Analyze, do not let anyone put division between you and your Spouse. Fight for your marriage like a Storm Trooper, because your Husband is in a bad spot right now, and when the Truth does hit him, he will need you more than ever. Having tread on the Boulevard of broken dreams, I know, as we all do, how painful and devastating he will find it.

    exTEAMster, I wouldn’t bet on your former up line being real friends for long. Any threat to the Biz will and you will be dumped like a nice show dog at an ugly dog contest. You are at the right place, though, because we won’t dump you, we will wait and be here for when you are ready to talk.

    In summation, I am very glad the two of you have decided to come here; one of you have left the Adams Family, and the other one wants her spouse to get out, we understand how you feel. No one on this site will ever call you a loser, a quitter, or tell you that you didn’t try hard enough, because we know the Truth, and we know it hurts, too. Welcome to the beginning of the rest of your Life!

  82. Analyze and think! permalink
    May 19, 2014 6:29 pm

    @Truth Hurts,
    Thank you for the warm welcome and the insightful message. It has been somewhat of an uphill battle with this thing. I have offered several alternatives to this “business”. I have offered to look up business and management courses which are taught by professors and those who have owned their own business and currently do own their own business. When he came back from the meeting and I proposed this to him his answer was so sophomoric and void of any real reasoning. The line they fed him in which he regurgitated to me was “well its funny that most business administration instructors have never run their own successful businesses before.” There is nothing I abhor or hate more than people who have never ever stepped foot into a college or an institution of higher learning setting fixing their mouth and minds to speak against higher education. I come from a very educated family and a family of educators. No matter what education is the key and we must guard our minds against those who want to poison it with nonsensical information. Im at a loss right now. He seems as if he is truly immersed deeply into the business. I am truly disconnected from him at this point and seem to have checked myself out in order to save my sanity. I am unsure of where to go from this point. I do not want it to seem as if though I have given up but at the moment I am disgusted that he is not smart enough to see the financial peril he is putting our family in.

  83. Melanie Morgan permalink
    May 20, 2014 10:18 am

    Analyze and think!

    We all can empathize with you and wish there was more we could do for you! But you are smart and thankfully you didn’t fall for the bedazzlement! There is a really good chance your husband will “fade away”! The attrition rate is extremely HIGH and hopefully he will see it now rather than later.

    Sadly, no one that gets trapped and defends…fully trusted these ‘strangers’, almost over night! They are not “thinking clearly” ( it’s the cult like system is doing it’s job!) they are enticed and captured emotionally, so “logic” as you can see eludes them!

    I cannot tell you how many stories I have heard like yours!

    Sadly some end badly, I don’t tell you that to lose hope, I pray your spouse wakes up!

    They trap people by their personal desire and with undue influences, the “dream of becoming filthy rich” and “living the life they always wanted”…..gets a person emotionally hooked and bedazzled, then they get them “financially trapped” (thinking they will get back their investment and pay their debt they get into by building)! This causes them to loose themselves and their senses.

    Not to be “negative” and don’t lose hope…. just being honest I have seen some. when given the ultimatum the spouse found they were in love with the “business” apparently more than their spouse, it is SICK.

    But hang in there, don’t give up! We are all rooting for you! You are on to it! Keep us posted!

  84. fastfruit2oo9 permalink
    May 21, 2014 8:12 am

    My non involved spouse’s advice… was..
    Spouse wanted me to succeed..
    Succeed with a small group of non-family, and non-dear friends to build a success road map.
    THEN with the success proven to self, share with those most dear to me because I / (and we) would be confident the system worked.
    I felt totally guilty making one sale of ‘a’ product to retired friends – and my $5o kick back simply implied to me these folks were totally OVERCHARGED. I made up the difference by assuring they got more of my own “PV” stock – which thus they got about 4 times more product than the price they paid.
    Spouse’s wisdom was PERFACT, as spouse had some knowledge of very likely GOOOOOOOOOOSE EGG worth of success is due to those in MLM.

  85. June 19, 2015 10:58 am

    Former Monavie/TEAM bot here. I used to post a lot a few years ago here. Just wondering, have Woodward broken off with MonaVie now? If so he’s running something purely illegal, as he’s supposed to be hawking some physical snake oil to supplement his pyramid scheme…sorry if this seems repetitive to the rest of you guys, I’m still trying to catch up with the latest TEAM shenanigans.

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