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Lazy Man’s Opposing Look At Orrin’s Pyramid Scheme Article

March 8, 2014

Lazy Man has been analyzing and critiquing multi-level marketing (MLM) programs since 2008. He first covered MonaVie and has expanded his investigations to companies such as One24, Protandim, Visalus, Vemma, Asea, and others. This weekend, he took another critical look at Orrin Woodward1, deconstructing the arguments put forth by Orrin that LIFE is not a pyramid scheme:

  1. Orrin’s hypothetical statement that only 1 in 100 people make $50K or more per year.
  2. The “hard-wired” nature of the LIFE business model.
  3. The car assembly line metaphor Orrin uses for the LIFE business.
  4. The misplaced belief that one will succeed if one just works hard enough.

Lazy Man also points to discussions on the (relatively) new LIFE forums in which TEAM members can repeat whatever they hear and read from their leaders. In my years of covering MLM’s, I have found that the echo chamber effect to be a signficant cause as to why so many people stay in far longer than they ordinarily would.

Check out the full article on Lazy Man’s site. If you find it useful, leave a comment over there and encourage others to read and share it.


1 Lazy Man previously wrote these articles about Orrin Woodward.

117 Comments leave one →
  1. Bob Robertson permalink
    March 11, 2014 4:55 am

    What become of William (Bill) & Jann Newton? They led everyone to believe they were big shots with Mona-Vie and then LIFE, But yet they filed BANKRUPTSEY in Sedgwick county Kansas where they reside on May-21-2013 Amazing they teach about money but cannot take care of there own. This is public record.

  2. freedomhaha permalink
    March 11, 2014 8:15 am

    They wouldn’t be the first (or fourth) big shot TEAM family to file bankruptcy.

  3. March 11, 2014 9:53 am

    @Bob – An article about the Newton’s bankruptcy can be found here on this site. At the time of the bankruptcy filing in 2013, they were still giving talks at TEAM/LIFE meetings.

  4. Melanie Morgan permalink
    March 13, 2014 4:04 pm

    Lazyman, that guy is good… LOVE his article and clear logic! Thanks Amthrax!

  5. Perplexed permalink
    April 12, 2014 9:51 am

    There is an incredible logical flaw in Woodward’s assembly line analogy that Lazy Man doesn’t mention. Let’s say it is true that, at any moment, there are 99 incomplete cars in the line and 1 complete car. But what happens if we evaluate the progress at the end of the day? Let’s say that 1,000 cars begin assembly in 1 day. That means 900 cars will have reached completion, while 100 stay sitting on the assembly line waiting to be completed the next day. So, at the end of the day, 90% of the cars are complete, while only 10% are incomplete. As has been detailed numerous times, it is impossible for any MLM company to get to 90% (even by Woodward’s own admission) of members making 50 grand per year.

    One other flaw in the logic. What happens if the assembly line is cut off at the start? That is, no new car assembly can start. The 99 cars on the line will still go to completion. At the end, 100% of the cars will be complete. What happens to LIFE if the line is cut off at the start (i.e. no new members)? No “developing” members will reach the end of the line.

  6. chris permalink
    April 23, 2014 7:51 am

    You know anyone who is on LIFE or a prospect has the ability to search Orrin’s name and get some alternative view points. So I felt it was fair to give the same treatment to Lazyman and other people http://protandimretort.com/ this is a totally fair request. I guess we will have to see if you guys respect fairness. Hopefully you will post it though. Or this one too http://lazymancrazyman.wordpress.com/2012/10/11/what-makes-lazy-man-run/

  7. Vogel permalink
    April 23, 2014 8:07 am

    Dirty tricks Chris? Those sites offer no defense of Orrin Woodward. They are anonymously registered sites, presumably setup by some cowardly pyramid scheme hustler, filled with unsubstantiated accusations and mudslinging.

    What you are saying, indirectly, is that if someone dares to criticize Orrin or an MLM, then they can expect to suffer because some idiot will come along and try to trash them using baseless ad homnem attacks.

  8. freedomhaha permalink
    April 23, 2014 8:09 am

    Chris- This site has a long history of posting both sides of the story here. Now for a good joke try that on Orrin’s blog.

  9. Melanie Morgan permalink
    April 23, 2014 8:22 am

    Chris……Chris Who?🙂

  10. Melanie Morgan permalink
    April 23, 2014 8:29 am

    How about a game of hangman, Chris?….I’ll start….Would your name be Chris L___. Transparent? LOL

  11. April 23, 2014 9:21 am

    @Melanie – No need to guess Chris’ identify if he does not want to publicly share it with the rest of us.

    @Chris – I trust the information, research, and facts shown by LazyMan over the history, half-truths, and bad business model of many MLM practioners.

  12. Melanie Morgan permalink
    April 23, 2014 9:45 am

    Amthrax~

    I get that. Sorry, just having a little fun because frankly, I find it a joke. My point is; after reading the interesting arguments about lazyman’s complete “bias & non-transparency” from the extremely “biased” links, I just can’t take it seriously.

    What Chris doesn’t understand is he is the bullsh*t arguments and whining about “fairness” doesn’t fly and he will have to do A LOT better because he is NOT dealing with gullible amateurs.

  13. freedomhaha permalink
    April 23, 2014 10:02 am

    When Chris wants to start arguing the facts in the compensation plan and prove to me that in fact 99% of people DON’T lose money I will be here to listen.

  14. chris permalink
    April 23, 2014 9:55 pm

    First I wanted to show all the readers how on the internet there is a negative site out there for everyone. So This is Orrin site. And Lazyman/Vogel has his own site.

    Second I wanted everyone to notice the response to that post I had. I made it non threatening as possible. Basically a offering a link. Now anyone who is not a devout Amtrax person, just look at how fast and how hate filled that post got backlashed on. I basically posted a link and I got credibility attacks, intelligence attacks, character attacks. Melanie Morgan called me whining and start swearing a bit. Just think about what kind of people act this way? Do you feel they have a good heart and are well intentioned?

    Third, I wanted to thank you Amtrax for shutting down the bill lewis hate post when you found out Jackie Died. This shows a bit of class. But just for you, I know not all of you are like that. But the Amtrax guy at least had respect for the dead enough to shut down the diatribe, or unless you thought it would look bad trashing on a widowed man. Not sure, I will give you the benefit of the doubt. However som of you guys were probably friends with Jackie and it would be cool to see you post something you know. Show the heart a bit.

    Fourth, Melaine, Its not Chris L. Its Chris M. As in Murphy. As in a 29 year old man who lives in Redford, MI. I want to say Melanie, I personally read a lot of your articles. You are one pissed off lady man. Seem so unhappy. You fight harder than the rest. And you got a bit of a holier than thou arrogance when you talk to anyone who does 100% support you. But how is John? I never hear from him on here. You two married still?

    So that is all, People the truth really is this. God hates sowing discord among the brotheren So I can’t prove who is right or wrong. But being an angry hate blogger is as big a sin as being a scam artist in the lords eyes. So If Orrin is a liar, that sucks cause you all will be spending eternity together. Now if you are LIFE curious. I can say become a customer. Borrow something for free. If you like it, buy it yourself. It is valuable then become a member down the road and you can get rebated on you purchase. And then who knows from there. I am not gonna get into it casue I know how these people are. They have a vendetta against LIFE. But just use some common sense. Go from “I don’t know” to “Try it for free” to “I like it I will buy my own” to ” I really find it valuable I want to become a distributor”. And If you ever become a Distributor I ask these few favors. Please don’t be an idiot when you represent my company. Please don’t ever take advantage of someone. Please learn balance and understand if you wanna do the full go getter to plan it all on one day each week or something so you don’t lose out on time with you wife and kids and invest in those relationships first. I don’t know about The guys at the top. But I know I build this thing with a good heart. I can only speak for myself. They seem legit – but I am the only one I know is legit. I cant read minds or hearts. So if you join, build it with heart, build it with class and build it smart. And don’t let hate critics demoralize you, and if you get to the top and find it seems not legit, leave. But do it the right way. Cause if I was a speaker and I found out it was a lie, then I would hate blog. I would have put that stuff right out on the that stage. Just use your eyes, look at how angry they are here. Like a pack or wolves mixed with school yard bully. They giggle and get excited over people’s foreclosures for pete’s sakes. And then if you call them out on it they find a tactical way to make it look like they aren’t laughing at that particular thing but this part of the thing. But in reality they would love for the top 10% of LIFE to go into debt, get divorced and whatever awful news they could find just to have evidence for themselves. But if you look at the timeline post site, they love and joke over every foreclosure and every lawsuit. Like pigs in mud. Its gross behavior quite frankly.

  15. chris permalink
    April 23, 2014 10:10 pm

    Sorry, the sentence “Cause if I was a speaker and I found out it was a lie, then I would hate blog. I would have put that stuff right out on the that stage.” I meant to say then I would NOT hate blog. Also Amthrax, I am sorry I called you amtrax by mistake the whole speech. God Bless!

  16. amused permalink
    April 24, 2014 3:46 am

    @ Chris: One of the problems with your post is that you’re encouraging people to try LIFE for themselves and not heed the advice of these so-called ‘hate-critics’. (by the way, isn’t that also name calling and judgmental on your part?) Well, these ‘hate-critics’ are critical of LIFE because they’ve BEEN THERE. They HAVE tried out LIFE. And guess what? It’s a SCAM. They’re on here trying to warn people who are perhaps considering joining to save them the trouble of going through it and finding out the hard way.

    As far as taking joy in the foreclosures and so forth of the big leaders? The LIFE company boasts of the financial riches to be had, and the top leaders promote, display and brag about how filthy rich they are, when in fact in reality they don’t even keep up with mortgage payments. (on houses they supposedly paid cash for because I think they also brag about being debt-free and paying cash for everything) This is all done as a recruitment strategy. They show this lavish lifestyle in an attempt to get people to join. That’s a big selling point. So when it’s proven AS A FACT to be untrue, I think that warrants attention also. Everyone should be aware that the leaders are liars and hypocrites.

    Let me summarize: LIFE is a SCAM.

  17. chris permalink
    April 24, 2014 7:00 am

    Why would Chuck Collen and Darkangelo Be making zero money but be happy as a clam to spread the word? What happened with them is that They were not high levels first off. They Quit there jobs when the were barelt Roundtables in Quixtar. So they made about 100k about. They bought there new house right before the housing bubble popped and we switched companies. So when they switched they lost half their income for 6 months right at the burst of the government housing bubble. They bought a house basing their income on a level that stopped for six months. Like many people. And when that bubble popped and Quatative easy 1 and 2 hit by Obama it hurt the Economy and so they hard to file. Now they are back to making money. But it the real world, when you file for bankruptcy in a recession time, you cant just go right back and say “Oh, hey I am wealthy again so unfile for me.” it remains. They are back to being positive cash flow now and not in that anymore. Guzzardo was in trouble cause he was the weakest Diamond, bought a new place basing it on an income. And he also was paying his directors out of his own pocket, like all the pc did, in between the shift. But now he is good and he did not losing anything. The Newtons make good money, but they bought a house and got hit with one of those ridiculous Adjustable rate Mortages. And to just get out of that over pricing situation they defaulted it so they could get a situation that made more sense. You wanna know why Quixtar sued Orrin over the cds? Casue in Quixtar they had a cd system company wide. And they sell a Billy Florence cd the money went right to Billy Florence and to Dick Devos. And Orrin said “NO!, I want to have my own so that I can profit share with my directors and up.” So TEAM sold there cds and put the money into a profit sharing plan and paid it back to all the directors and above. Not just straight into Orrin back account. But Dick Devos wanted to see that money in his pocket, not spread out into Orrin whole group. So he sued. And Orrin would not stand for it so he resigned. That is the reality of it. Why did Dickie quit? Cause they discovered his son was embezzling at the office into a missionary. So he was terminated and the whole Dickie team quit. Some of the other leaders hit there levels and then kicked back and enjoyed the income. But when the shift happened they had to start leading again and they didn’t enjoy that so they disbanded. These are the realities of the situations on said timeline.

    Bonus note: The TEAM is no longer its own business. The pc worked hard to finally combine the two. Now its all one company. And all the money made off of LIFE Training cds go into a plan disbursed by the new C.A.B. bonus that are on the new updated IDS.

    Lastly, yes when I labeled you guys I was judging and naming myself. However, it was not with such burning hatred and also it was a basic observation. It is easy to see you guys are very very hateful. Also great and attempting to take stuff and spin it around and stand. Yes you got me pegged. I am not perfect. It is true. But I attempt to be a good person. So I apologize if I labeled you and it hurt your feelings. But I cant really find a better way to describe how you guys act. You actively use peoples problems and mistakes to spin into a message to promote you hateful vendetta. I find that as “Sowing discord among the brotheren” And you attack people personally all day long. But you never put you full name and true identies out there for people to google you and find out the negative on you. The only ones who have are Morgan And Requel. God bless!

  18. chris permalink
    April 24, 2014 7:05 am

    Also I apologize for any typos. I have seen you guys try to attack peoples messages because of typos. Like we are mentally handicapped because of fast typing with out spell check. So I know I had some, I am sorry.

  19. Vogel permalink
    April 24, 2014 7:53 am

    Chris said: “First I wanted to show all the readers how on the internet there is a negative site out there for everyone. So This is Orrin site. And Lazyman/Vogel has his own site. Second I wanted everyone to notice the response to that post I had. I made it non threatening as possible. Basically a offering a link. Now anyone who is not a devout Amtrax person, just look at how fast and how hate filled that post got backlashed on. I basically posted a link and I got credibility attacks, intelligence attacks, character attacks. Melanie Morgan called me whining and start swearing a bit. Just think about what kind of people act this way? Do you feel they have a good heart and are well intentioned?”

    You leap on the sword and dare to portray yourself as a martyr? My reply to you was simply that the sites you admonished people to read were worthless attacks sites against Lazyman that had no reliable information. I didn’t attack you; I attacked the validity of the site. Now, however, since you made the mistake of saying that those sites pertain to me, I’m taking the gloves off. I’m not Lazyman, so any random anonymous site that says otherwise deserves to be excoriated, as do you, for positing a blatant lie. That’s not a well-intentioned act; it’s malicious.

    Secondly, the sites you linked (a) do not pertain to Orrin Woodward or LIEf/TEAM, the subject of this thread, not do they say anything to undermine Lazyman’s arguments or credibility. They merely point out the fact that Lazyman’s site has Google ads, as do hundreds of thousands of sites on the Internet. Google ads are not a barometer of reliability. Furthermore, the content on Lazyman’s site pertaining to Orrin, Monavie, LIEf/TEAM, and other MLMs is solid and thoroughly sourced. Your attempt to discredit that information on the basis of the two anonymous attacks sites you linked to is the act of a feckless coward.

    Chris said: “I want to say Melanie, I personally read a lot of your articles. You are one pissed off lady man. Seem so unhappy. You fight harder than the rest. And you got a bit of a holier than thou arrogance when you talk to anyone who does 100% support you. But how is John? I never hear from him on here. You two married still?”

    You really are a piece of work sonny. You come on here bellowing like an ass, moan about being attacked, and then attack Melanie with those idiotic comments. I pity you. It is thankless soul-sucking task to be the hit man for immoral scoundrels.

    Chris said: “But being an angry hate blogger is as big a sin as being a scam artist in the lords eyes.”

    First, it is your heart that is filled with contempt and the desire for revenge. Second, you are wrong about the Lord. God loathes scammers, but he loves those who castigate the scammers:
    .
    Matthew 21:12 – “And Jesus went into the temple of God, and cast out all them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves.”

    Chris said: “Also I apologize for any typos. I have seen you guys try to attack peoples messages because of typos. Like we are mentally handicapped because of fast typing with out spell check. So I know I had some, I am sorry.”

    I don’t mind the typos so much but your inability to offset your caustic run on sentences into paragraphs is more maddening than the shallow mean-spirited content itself.

    [Editor’s Note: Added blockquotes to separate what Chris said and what Vogel is saying]

  20. chris permalink
    April 24, 2014 8:39 am

    You spin me round and round and round like a record baby right, right, right round. You take my words and spin them word like you’re Micheal Moore right, right, right round. I am sorry, I am so dizzy from all that spin my stomache feels sour. And Yes Jesus flipped the tables. But then he also talks about the Pharisee condemning the tax collector for being a cheat. And the collector is more righteous in that act. So God can condemn them, and man can not. But we aren’t God or Jesus. So men can not Condemn without a penalty. And they definetaly can’t do it inaccurately

  21. Vogel permalink
    April 24, 2014 8:51 am

    Ah yes, the nerve of me to hold you accountable for your deceptive words and cowardly deeds. March on lickspittle!

  22. noteam permalink
    April 24, 2014 9:41 am

    Chris – That was the biggest bunch of lies I have seen on here yet. Orrin is not some hero who was wanting to share the tool profit so he stood up to Amway.

    ORRIN WAS TERMINATED FROM AMWAY/QUIXTAR FOR REPEATED RULES VIOLATIONS!!!! He was warned over and over and over to stop breaking the rules and stop his lies and he refused so they terminated him.

    Then, like a politician, he spun the story to make it sound like he was for the common man. Untrue. He lied to Quixtar/Amway. He broke the rules. He got caught. Bottom line. Does losing a $25 million judgement sound like an ethical person to you???? Remember how the judge also fined Tim Marks around $60,000 for not being forthright and withholding evidence????? Is that ethical?????

    Also, your facts are wrong. Dick DeVos did not make money on tools. All the tool money went to the system people. Orrin just shared more of it in an attempt to keep people brainwashed longer. And have more people doing the brainwashing.

    And your comment about the Bill Newton bankruptcy. Bill didn’t like the way the adjustable rate mortgage went up so he defaulted on the loan so he could get a better deal???? Are you serious????? Is that the integrity these guys speak of on stage????? As a businessman, wouldn’t you think he would know how adjustable rates work????

    Another attempt to deflect and distract by a TEAM/LIFE/Orrin Woodward scam artist – good work Chris.

  23. April 24, 2014 10:05 am

    Chris:

    You wrote:

    Why would Chuck Collen and Darkangelo Be making zero money but be happy as a clam to spread the word? What happened with them is that They were not high levels first off. They Quit there jobs when the were barelt Roundtables in Quixtar. So they made about 100k about. They bought there new house right before the housing bubble popped and we switched companies. So when they switched they lost half their income for 6 months right at the burst of the government housing bubble. They bought a house basing their income on a level that stopped for six months. Like many people. And when that bubble popped and Quatative easy 1 and 2 hit by Obama it hurt the Economy and so they hard to file. Now they are back to making money. But it the real world, when you file for bankruptcy in a recession time, you cant just go right back and say “Oh, hey I am wealthy again so unfile for me.” it remains. They are back to being positive cash flow now and not in that anymore. Guzzardo was in trouble cause he was the weakest Diamond, bought a new place basing it on an income. And he also was paying his directors out of his own pocket, like all the pc did, in between the shift. But now he is good and he did not losing anything. The Newtons make good money, but they bought a house and got hit with one of those ridiculous Adjustable rate Mortages. And to just get out of that over pricing situation they defaulted it so they could get a situation that made more sense.

    Here are a few questions that I would pose to you:

    1. In your opinion, should the Cullens and Darkangelos have quit their day jobs? Would this have helped reduce or eliminate the financial stress they ultimately experienced?
    2. Was anyone from TEAM/LIFE giving them financial advice — i.e were they counseling upline before making the decision to buy a house or get an adjustable rate mortgage (ARM)?
    3. What kind of financial advice were they giving other people during the period of time they were undergoing bankruptcy proceedings? Should they have disclosed the fact they were undergoing bankruptcy to the people they were prospecting or were talking to at Opens and Monthly Seminars?
    4. Based on your understanding of the facts, are they qualified to give financial advice?
    5. If you were to give the Cullens, Darkangelos, Newtons, Guzzardos (don’t forget the Hubers), a school grade between A and F, what grade would you give them in finances?
  24. Melanie Morgan permalink
    April 24, 2014 10:15 am

    Chris Murphy~

    Just as I suspected, clearly you had a much different motive that you want to portray.🙂

    First, I have a few questions:

    1) When did you get started?

    2) Were you on our (John & I) team and did you know us personally?

    3) Did you work directly with John and I?

    4). Who is your current upline, and who do you work with PC etc.?

    5) Do you or have you ever worked for the Team Office?

  25. chris permalink
    April 24, 2014 10:18 am

    2 years. Not on your team. My brother team. Direct to Orrin.

  26. Melanie Morgan permalink
    April 24, 2014 10:40 am

    Chris Murphy~

    It must be an oversight on your part, but you missed answering question #5.

  27. Melanie Morgan permalink
    April 24, 2014 11:20 am

    Chris Murphy~

    Struggling with question #5? or Perhaps you have gotten that phone call from Orrin or your brother? LOL🙂

    But No worries, take your time, I will wait for your answer.

  28. freedomhaha permalink
    April 24, 2014 5:53 pm

    Chris Murphy- What percentage of your downline is making a profit?

  29. chris permalink
    April 24, 2014 9:10 pm

    Question 5 is no. And Freedom that is 50%. And no I didn’t get a phone call. I don’t sit online all day. So you get some of my time here and there.

    Melanie I got some questions:
    1,) You seem like you don’t have a 9-5 job, is that true.
    2) if you are retired you must be good at business. Were you born with that skill, did you learn it in colleage, or were you self taught?
    3.) If you are retired now from passive income, and you are good at business and it was a self taught skill. Who or were did you get that initial bulk of self taught information from?

  30. chris permalink
    April 24, 2014 9:32 pm

    So here is some articles also.

    1) This is for your beloved Forbes article. http://mlmhelpdesk.com/critics-use-2008-forbes-article-to-bash-orrin-woodword-t-e-a-m-and-mlm-but-is-the-article-unbiased-or-just-a-hack-job/#.U1np7yDD_IU

    2) this is about your top 25 leadership gurus situation and Orrin and Chris latest lawsuit you timelined. http://scottsocialmediaallen.com/orrin-woodward-chris-brady-critics-not-applying-critical-thinking/

    3.) This is a letter Orrin gave to Dick Devos http://crazyfunwildworld.blogspot.com/2007/09/team-orrin-woodwards-letter-to-doug.html

    4.) Here is a site about Brain aka vogul aka Lazyman. http://lazymoron.me/tag/corey-whitlaw/

    5) I wanted to thank NOTeam. I put the Dick Devos slip in there to see if anyone would catch it and he did. his direct quote is
    “Also, your facts are wrong. Dick DeVos did not make money on tools. All the tool money went to the system people. Orrin just shared more of it in….”

    Now he goes of course to the brainwashing part, but notice this line. “All the tool money went to the system people.” so Billy Florence cd profits went to Billy Florence. “Orrin just shared more of it in…” So an Orrin Woodward cd by normal Quixtar standards would have just been straight profit to Orrin. But instead he shared more of it… interesting. Also Since TEAM taught a whole different approach, he had to create his own set to not confuse people. I.E. the building ‘wide’ approach vs. Depth apprenticeship. But that you for admitting that instead of greedily taking 100% of the profit, he shared that money with his downline.

    6.) Here is the website for LIFE’s Charity All Grace Outreach. https://www.allgraceoutreach.com/Home/tabid/224/Default.aspx

    and this is the page that has the tax transparency to view the proceeds
    https://www.allgraceoutreach.com/FinancialTransparency/tabid/344/Default.aspx

    What is the name of Amthrax’s charity?

  31. chris permalink
    April 24, 2014 9:51 pm

    Oh ya, Question of the day. If Orrin built a company and it paid 3-6 guys between 100k – a million a year. And if he gave them great finanaical advice. But they choose to not listen to it completely because they see a house they want but probably shouldn’t get. Is that Orrin’s fault. Or the Business’s fault? Would it have been RAy Kroc’s fault or McDonalds fault for a manager buying a corvette and then having to file for bankruptcy? Of course not that is ridiculous. But flip it to MLM and its totally logically? That makes sense in… opposite world

  32. freedomhaha permalink
    April 25, 2014 4:17 am

    Chris Murphy- I would like to remind you that profit means income- expenses (gas, food, hotel, tickets, system). Also, I have to give you credit for being the only one to give me a number when I have asked this question. We have some people that know this comp plan much better than myself that will help with verifying that 50% number. After all, “In God we trust all others must have data”. I was told by a leadership guru once to trust but verify.

  33. chris permalink
    April 25, 2014 5:58 am

    I am glad you admit Orrin is a Leadership guru. And I am trying to post like 6 web sites articles but for some reason its just not posting. hmmmm… Any way freedom I can tell you don’t know the pay plan well. you see on team, unlike ALL companies there is an instant payout for retailed products of 25% plus. So anyone who sells 100 dollars of product gets 25 bucks back plus pv. also we have the three for free promo. Which is anyone who has a subscription – if they have 3 customers then they get their personal subscription free, and they get 25% plus the PV back. So here is an example. Downline has LLR pack once a month. They have 2 LLR customers and a LIFE customer. and they retail a Financial fitness pack. So out of pocket they pay a total of 50 dollars for their LLR. They have $250 dollars in cutomers. At the next pay schedule they will receive: Their $50 return of their LLR pack to break even, and then $62.50 ( 25% of $250) plus 150 PV for whatever is nearest bracket, at lowest it would be 5% of 150PV so $7.50. So grand total that is a payment of $50 in april to receive $120 on Aprils paycheck. Direct examples. Now some Just retail a few packs to break even. So just get three for to break even. Then you got some who just get pushed up brackets. But its pretty neat when you get paid to listen and read stuff you actually wanted and improve personally. That is why LIFE is actually not a “Pyramid scheme” cause they have the cutomer rule, plus the instant 25% commission. And you don’t get paid recruiting fees. So you aren’t making money for recruiting people. You buy an online store, and you are paid for how well you attract people to that online store and you get paid commission style in all retail situations. That is not a spin of any kind. If you look at the definition and the way we actually do it you will see. Now in Amway you retail some toilet paper you’re lucky to make back a few bucks. or 200 dollars of XS would get you like 7 bucks

  34. chris permalink
    April 25, 2014 5:59 am

    I am sorry not on TEAM I meant on LIFE. TEAM no longer exist as a company

  35. Former Round Table permalink
    April 25, 2014 6:10 am

    Dear Chris,

    All I can say is that Orrin has successfully spun a web of lies to “explain” the failures of his business model, and you have believed those lies without question.

    I could go on and on and tell you the REAL story behind every single lie you repeated here, but I don’t think it would make any difference in your mind, would it? Because you want to believe Orrin’s lies.

    So I won’t waste my breath. But just remember, we ARE angry, because we used to believe in Orrin too. But then we found out the truth about him and his skanky business. And the crap you just spouted about the bankruptcies is FALSE. The crap about Guzzardo being the weakest diamond is FALSE. The crap about Pastor Dickie and his son is a FULL OUT LIE, and slanderous at that. The crap about the leaders who left (which would include us) is completely UNTRUE.

    Do you want to know the REAL truth? I suspect you don’t even want to know that there is another version, because that might mess with your current convictions. Chris, I pity you. You are following and propagating a false dream.

  36. chris permalink
    April 25, 2014 6:11 am

    oh also we can not put retail commission or 3 for free returns as business income on the IDS because IDS is based strictly on the money earn through structure not outside sales. That would be a misrepresentation of income if we included those items. Plus the first time you do that 200PV deal I described you get 400 free PV for trip qualified bonus with the new CAB bonus.

  37. freedomhaha permalink
    April 25, 2014 6:32 am

    Chris- I appreciate you getting back to me with concrete examples. You are correct in that I am not an expert on the comp plan the way that others that do independent evaluation are. However, we do have a good amount of contributors here that are experts, and I will leave the numbers up to them. I would direct you to the YouTube videos that deal with comp plan analysis. We both know that even if you make a small amount, or break even, off your materials that it takes much more money than that to build the business the way that you are taught to build the business. Gas, hotels, seminar tickets, meetings food, and tools just to start with.

    Looking forward to having a great conversation about this.

  38. April 25, 2014 8:02 am

    @Chris – Your comment was pre-moderated due to having too many links in it; it has now been approved.

  39. April 25, 2014 8:56 am

    @Chris,

    Perhaps Darkangelos, Newtons, etc. decided to go against what their upline counseled them to do and bought a house when they were counseled not to, but that doesn’t explain the cars that were not paid for with cash and the credit card debt. We were always taught that if you can’t afford to pay cash for something, then you shouldn’t be buying it…it’s called Delayed Gratification and the LIFE leaders preached it at EVERY function. Worse yet, Cullens and Darkangelos were still “spreading the word”, knowing all the while that they were either 1.) not following what they were counseled to do, or 2.) not making any money doing it, but trying to convince others it’s profitable. In any case, they’re liars, not leaders.

    As far as Newtons and their “ridiculous adjustable rate mortgage” go, whatever happened to Orrin’s quote “Men of integrity do what’s right, even if it costs them”? I guess that applies to everybody except the people that profess it. If they’re making the gobs of money that they claim are available to everyone who works at it, then an adjustable rate mortgage shouldn’t lead to their financial downfall. Their downfall was greed (or they’re lying about the $ they’re making). Use some critical thinking, Chris. This doesn’t make any sense whatsoever. They’re playing you.

    Are there any financial statements on All Grace Outreach? How do you know what they really pull in? I speculate that it’s a cover. They act altruistic, but if you scratch the surface, I’ll bet you find that they make money off of this too.

    Finally, the lies about the Dickies are complete and utter nonsense. Have you ever met the Dickies? Do you know them personally? I know the answer to both of those questions is “no” or you wouldn’t believe what Orrin says about them. Think for yourself, get the facts, and form your own opinion, don’t just go propagating a lie, like a puppet.

    You seem like a smart guy Chris, reason it out.

  40. chris permalink
    April 25, 2014 2:18 pm

    I will give you guys one thing. The Dickie situation was a bit slanderous. I have met him though. And no offense but I found him very full of himself. Like anytime I see a Leader give a talk about someone being awesome its Orrin talking about how great Tim or Chris are, youknow the whole edification bit. But I remember Dickie would edify himself. I remember him doing a talk about saving a swimming kid. And it was so so so full of himself in it. Like 40 min talk on him saving this young boy who would be dead if it wasn’t for him and the whole “Just one more stroke” It was a hero tale, but when he did it about himself it was so unappealing. So I do apologize for the Dickie comment. If I could remove it I would have.

    However I once heard Lazyman say that our business was illegal. And I asked
    “how could it be made legal” and he said to me.
    “It should be a direct commission like real estate.”

    Now if you look at the fact that a guy could get started, and I have seen this happen where people join to just retail. So the newest guy and the “Bottom” get $280 worth of products for the price of $99.99, and then he never attended a seminar, never showed a single plan, and he never joined the training system. But he retailed 3 customers for any product line he was on, for simplicity sake lets LLR and LIFE packs. Then also he online retailed (meaning he did not at first buy a product then sell it latter) 3 Mental Fitness Challenges and 3 Financial Fitness packs. So that would be a pv total of 200pv+330pv+150pv = 680pv. And a retail total of $175+$165+$75= $415. And if you take the PV bonus(assuming he is the absolute “bottom” guy) at 600pv he hits the 15% bracket or $102. So that is $415+102= $517. So the person got $100 worth of free products himself and a $517 dollar check for that month end. Only cost he invested was a $100 dollars for LLR and LIFE packs but he got those fully reimbursed and a $517 paycheck.

    So in a real estate It is a direct commission. And i also Googled the average percentage an agent recieves and it popped up as 6%. Not sure if that is true but its what I found. So the above person went out in a month and sold $1360 of products, that he did not have to pre-purchase to retail, and he received $100 in free products(that he could also sell) and a $517 check. That is an instant commission and its at a rate of 38%. Also like I said before they get 400PV free for trip Qualified.

    Now of course not everyone takes advantage of this type of situation. But the founders created a business that made that available, and if the person was intelligent they would take advantage of that. I also understand its not a millionaire lifestyle. But it was basic numbers. If they applied it to other products then a guy could have PV goal for power player, get a free ticket to the seminar and opens, get any of the free subscriptions available, plus 25% of the money that would be generate by all that. If he was on full everything we offer he would only have to pay average of $130 dollars for LIFE Training and gas for events. Would get over $240 of free products (which he could also sell) plus get $857 minimum check if you combine the pv and extra commissions. Not to mention this is a guy at the “bottom” so if he actually built the business as we he would have all the needed stuff free and get that check on top of business growth. Now this does happen, this is real, and so its out there for someone to do if they choose. So you can twist this anyway you like. But the numbers don’t lie. Since both of these examples are actual and happen more than just once in a great while, it means they founders made this available, when they didn’t have to. And it also means that its an individual assignment for someone to does this. But if they sign up, retail nothing, never take advantage of 3 for free, and buy 400 bucks in stuff each month and never build it – The blame is on nobody but that individual person. We mention 3 for free and retail in ever open plan. And these number are in the New Comp Plan/IDS brochure. I just did a lot of number crunching and research to come up with that, and I know you will find a way to dismiss it. But those are the numbers. With no hidden clause that ” You must do this” or “You must be on System tools to receive these checks”. A business that offers DIRECT commission, at a 25% bare minimum profit back ( which can’t be IDS-ed). The same way all “conventional” sales people get their checks, but a commission rate that is higher than most. A.K.A. a legal sales business.

  41. chris permalink
    April 25, 2014 3:26 pm

    I apologize for my length of comments but i forgot a line above was not totally accurate. We do have TWO clauses. Open policy though, not hidden.

    Clause #1: 6-month customer rule: If you do not have a minimum of 100pv in retail sales your month end check will only be the bracket percent of you Personal PV. For example: A member at 50% bracket of 15000pv and is on a 50 pv subscription but no customer. He will only get $25 bucks back not $750. So that clause actually penalizes a person for not participating in a business of direct commission retailing, and penalizes the people who signs up and does nothing and get pushed up to the top (which would be a pyramid investment).

    Clause #2: This is not penalized, but it is enforced repeated until completion. Member compliance education test. You MUST listen to a 50 min audio and get a 70% or higher. The audio and test is on topics like ‘the importance of customers’ and ‘what direct sales is as a business’ and ”never ever promise anyone that they will get rich or that they guareenteed anything” the line they use on that one is actually

    “We have a lot of great members, but some of them in the past are absolute bozos who have actually promised people compensation for getting started. This is a business that will take work, and is no way a lottery ticket that one can purchase and hold on to, hoping one day to make money on. So never, ever, ever, ever promise a prospect that by getting involved they are ensured to become wealthy, or that they will get rich quickly, or that its easy and you will barely have to work and you will make lots of money.”

    the audio also discuss many topics on the legal side of where you can sell, the legal ages and number of people in a resisdence (so people don’t sign up with their own money again under a minor or family pet to make downline feel they are getting results). Basically a test you must listen to and pass about how to conduct and perform legally. the link is below, but I don’t know if it will work but I hope it does. So who every does research for you can listen to that please. Its a bit dorky, but its compliance. and its enforced. You can not take the test until you listen to whole audio. It wont let you shut it off and click on the test link. You have to hear it all.
    thttp://www.lifeleadership.com/DesktopModules/Life_MemberEducation/MemberEducation/Video.aspx?formid=327&width=550&height=380&iframe=true

  42. noteam permalink
    April 25, 2014 7:49 pm

    Chris – You have been brainwashed beyond believe. Regarding your comments in which you claim Dickie would talk about himself. The person in TEAM/LIFEscam I heard talk about himself more than anyone I’ve ever heard in my life is Orrin Woodward. He is so full of himself it’s pathetic. All he did was talk about himself. The only reason everyone edifies him so much is because they know that is the only way they will get paid. If you do not suck up to ‘the master’ you will not be put on the speaking circuit and he could have you cut out of the deal – as Raatz, Morgan, Peters, etc all found out.

    Also, you seem to have a lot of mathematical knowledge of the LIFE plan for someone who is not at a high level. You aren’t by any chance another Orrin alias are you? Funny how in the post above you even made the comment about how Orrin speaks only of others. Only Orrin himself would think that was true. Even the Lifescam leaders know that’s a lie.

  43. exTEAMster permalink
    April 25, 2014 8:54 pm

    Chris: A legal business, perhaps, but I don’t believe one that has the potential for long-term success. The number of people willing to purchase hardcopy books and individual CDs has been declining steadily in recent years. The marketplace is dictating that type of content be delivered digitally. I know the LIFE PC’s (or whatever they’re called now) have talked of someday being able to offer subscriptions via digital download. That will be great, but in that format, the $50 per month price tag will seem even more extreme than it is now. So prices are going to have to come down to remain competitive, and that means you’ll have to generate more customers to maintain whatever earnings you are getting.

    But the bigger problem is that most people don’t have the time or desire to become regular readers, no matter what format is used to deliver the material (that holds true for ALL of print media, including newspapers and magazines). You may be able to convince someone to try a subscription for a few months, or even to sign up for one of the specific “help” packages such as the one aimed at improving finances. But once they believe the need in their life has been addressed, getting them to remain regular subscribers is very difficult. So the only candidates likely to become regular subscribers are those who are also looking to build a business.

    As a result, you have a product offering that doesn’t appeal to a high percentage of people from the get go. Those who might have an interest in self development materials already know where to find the information for a better price than LIFE. Those who you can convince to give self development materials a shot probably aren’t anything more than short-term customers. And those you convince to try building a business are going to have to spend a fair amount of money on tools, meetings, seminars, flip charts, etc., to try and find their own customers from this small pool of the overall population.

    When I first joined the LIFE business, one of the things that was mentioned as being a strength of the business was that it wasn’t “product based.” It wasn’t a magic juice or pill or hand cream or anything else that could be commoditized at the retail level. But the reality is that information is being commoditized more frequently today than ever before. And the LIFE program is not set up to be competitive in that information marketplace.

  44. chris permalink
    April 25, 2014 10:03 pm

    Noteam. – The Orrin talking about others was an example of edification. I was not claiming that Orrin himself was the best at it. In fact I think the two best people at edification Are Claude Hamilton and Wayne Macnamara. With Wayne maybe best at deflecting off him and raising up Claude. However he “edification” part of my two messages was the least thing to be responding to in a forum on the legality side of things. Also I assure Noteam, my name is Chris Murphy. Type that in face book for Michigan and you will find me. I am not a big pin. I am actually still employed as a business planner. However I have a brain, and I know how to calculate a check. A lot of people don’t but that is silly to me. Its a business that you own – you should know how to figure out a check and the bracket system. But anyway they put it out there for everyone, you just haven’t gotten the lastest one. That YouTube one is from two years ago. So the new one shows my data in easy to see literature. The CAB bonus, the new profit sharing to whole group and not just directs and up, and the 17 and 1/2 ways to make money. And also having retailed products myself, and seeing my down lines do the same I have discovered the words on the page match the money in our independent accounts.

    Exteamster – I am so proud of you. You could have went the way of the many and seen all the facts and numbers and still claimed illegal. But you had the ability to see it for what it is and acknowledge it is a legal business. So I will acknowledge you. True,its a niche market. It is definitely “For who it is for” in other words. However the digital download part has already happened. It’s called Rascal radio. $50 gets you 50pv and a online station like a Pandora in which you get 24/7 non stop life talks you can search through. Its a hot item, but people are still buying the hard packs still along side it. Yes the art of reading is on the downside. But one side to that is many people who aren’t reading see no value in it. Until they get inspired to do so. I would say at least 60% of our group, and all groups from concensus, have the “I don’t read” attitude in the beginning. Then they finally get through one book after a month, and then they start to want more and more and faster and faster. Now will that convert to a worldwide population? I don’t know. But my goal was to get better and help some people. I didn’t state I wanted to change the world. The leaders are driven enough to do it. We just have to see. We did just open in Australia and New Zealand this month. And Italy is next. So maybe. But right now its going along good. However, personally I am not a business moron. Even if this thing goes to ten million people. I am not gonna just only invest and work in this business. You take the excess income and get out of debt, then after you’re debt free you start investing into some other fields. I am almost debt free. But it is Like the book ‘ The Millionaire next Door’ says.

    “98% of the 13000 millionaires surveyed all had two things in common. All had multiple streams of income. And all of them owned their own business.”

    I just feel like if you’re gonna attack this group though guys, if it was me I would want to do it in an excellent fashion – I would have someone inside there getting the latest information. Most of the stuff you guys post about our pay plan is like 2 years old. If it was me, I take my work seriously, and I would have a person listening to some stuff, going to an event and getting the updated stuff atl east so I was not 1-5 years behind. But that is just how I think, maybe its ok settling for posting about stuff from 2011 in 2014.

  45. Brent Hansen permalink
    April 26, 2014 7:02 am

    FormerRoundTable wrote, “But just remember, we ARE angry, because we used to believe in Orrin too. But then we found out the truth about him and his skanky business.”

    That’s just funny, love the word “skanky”, it somehow fits perfectly. I literally laughed out loud when I read that.

    Chris, would you be willing to show someone your back office to validate your impossible “50%” of your team in profit claim?

  46. chris permalink
    April 26, 2014 7:22 am

    Well you take twenty human beings. 4 of them buy nothing. 5 of them just get a Pack 3 for free. 1 of them has a small business using there MFC as a training tool. 6 of them buy a subscription but have never made an effort to show anyone anything. ! is retailing and EDGE series to a school. 2 are retailing Finance pack to their church “Ramsey” style and then one has his company use LLR as Leadership Development. Well that is my impossible 50%. And I don’t have a ‘back office’ but I can show you my back door if it turns you on. Since you like skany and all.

    BUT I WANT TO HOLD IT ALL UP RIGHT HERE. LETS NOT LOOK AT ANY OF MY COMMENTS EXCEPT FOR THE TWO ABOUT DIRECT COMMISSION PROCESS AND THE TWO CLAUSES WE HAVE. WE CAN COMMENT ON WHATEVER YOU LIKE OF MINE. BUT THOSE ARE MY TWO MOST LOGICAL EXAMPLES OF LEGITAMACY. SO DONT IGNORE THEM TWO.

  47. chris permalink
    April 26, 2014 7:32 am

    Also out of the twenty people, the 4 that buy nothing and the six that have not made any efforts to retail anything. Those ten have the worst attitude in the group. Ask the most negative questions. Have done the least amount of work by far with the bigger amount of complaints. And its awesome because in 6 months to a year I will probably be able to find them on here as they name themselves “LieF Hater” and talk about how Orrin Woodward Scammed them. That mean old Orrin, didn’t just give them $1,000 a month for sitting around and enjoy his information. Wouldn’t give them the 3 for free unless they went out and earned it. That cruel, cruel Orrin.

  48. TruthSeeker permalink
    April 26, 2014 7:34 am

    Can someone please translate Chris’s response to Brent Hansen? Are they offering any type of literacy training Chris, you need it badly?

  49. noteam permalink
    April 26, 2014 9:21 am

    Chris – ‘That cruel old Orrin’ is not just a saying. He was directly involved in having people’s business taken from them. Business that we were all told was ‘residual’ income. How would you feel if you spent tens of thousands (perhaps over $100k), 6 nights a week for years, missed all the time with your kids, your family and your friends, and then after all was said and done, had your business taken away for no just cause?

    Orrin is the most dishonest, intrustworthy individual I have personally met. It doesn’t matter if it was 2 years ago or 4 years ago – the man is dishonest and that character trait does not go away.

    He must be stopped before thousands of more innocent people are scammed by this crew.

  50. chris permalink
    April 26, 2014 9:25 am

    Ok, coming in here I knew was a time waster, but for a minute it was alright. But I got to stop wasting my time with people who over look an hour of calculations and data against them, and instead attack my ability to not spell check. That is little kid stuff and blatant avoidance of the real topics. So before I go here are my highlights:

    1. A legit sales company is ran as direct commission on sales. Most commissions is in the 5-20% range. LIFE offers and gurantteed 25% bare minimum direct commission.

    2. A pyramid would be a company where a person could get in, sit back and have everyone at the bottom do all the work as they go higher and get more money then the ones at the bottom who did that work.
    a.) At LIFE you can never exceed past a 50% rebate if you sit back. You can not make a real income unless you are actively building in two or more groups.

    b.) Any member, can pass there upline member. Orrin has 13 groups over, if he stopped building and I put 14 over. I would make more compensation then Orrin (that is a fact you will disagree on but that is true.)

    c.) We also have a customer rule, where if you get in and do not generate 100PV in customer sales you will not be able to earn you bracket bonus on group PV, only personal PV. Which is a direct penalty to anyone who is actively pursuing a “Pyramid investment”

    3.) To ensure people do not promise “Get rich quick”, “something for nothing” or “Get in and you are for sure going to be making money” or any other ‘Lottery ticket’ type sales claim. All members are enforced to listen to a 50 minute Member Education Compliance audio and pass a test to make sure our members do not represent this business in any fashion outside of what the FTC has specified.

    4) The Top 25 leadership Guru claim of “Only three IP address” was found to note match the real data, and when asked to explain this the company would not answer Orrin or Brady directly. Thus leading to discover the that gentleman running the website did not live where he said, his name was hard to find on the site and other mysterious things. And Orrin and Chris are currently suing this gentleman to figure out what really happened with the top 25 leadership claims.

    5) The Compensation and IDS statements can only display money earn via business model income, a.k.a. the bracket system. So those two items will not display 3 for free reimbursements and the retail sales and commission incomes. So the lowest members on said IDS might average an income of 0-15% but excludes the 25% retail commission and reimbursement. MEANING: members who earns a 0-15% on IDS or bracket scale, are also receiving a 100% free product and/or 25% retail commission returns on top of that 0-15%.

    6) The Compensation and IDS statements that you guys have “Analyzed” is from the first year of a brand new company and is 2 years old, based on 3 year old data.

    7) The AGO is a charity that offers member who buy any “Faith” category products for a 100% pv in the business, a 25% commission outside retail, and but the money they spent on said products goes to the charity. A charity that is centered around Battered Women and Children centers, helping them with safety, survival and job training, education and child care. And when I posted the AGO tax transparency website I asked the question:

    “What is the name of Amthrax charity?”

    and the only response I got from the 7 people since then was, this from Platinum Blonde:
    “Are there any financial statements on All Grace Outreach? How do you know what they really pull in? I speculate that it’s a cover.” So the only answer to my question was a “speculation” against it the charity. And also I was under the opinion that a tax statement was a form of a “financial statement”.

    So anytime I made a crazy statement out of late night frustration, those kind of statements attracted all kinds of responses. But then I started to think clearly and posted the real numbers and instances were there was data of numbers, the direct commission side of this company which overcomes the FTC issues with the whole industry, the business practices to ensure legal education and rules to ensure members are not “waiting to peak the pyramid” . And when i did post those numbers, most of it was totally over looked so they could go back to attacking my less logical late night frustration statements or even attack my grammer, instead of the official data. So I feel I have made my peace. I actually got Exteamster to agree it was a legit business. He probably will be the only one. But any one who floats in here trying to find research for this business, look at their claims and then look at my data. Compare it up and think for yourself.

  51. chris permalink
    April 26, 2014 9:39 am

    Real quick Noteam I would feel awful if I lost my business and I would sue. I feel its very easy to sue in this country. I saw a court case were a man got sued for assault when he throw a peanut butter and jelly sandwich at a women. People have sued fast food places for making people fat. So I feel in 20 IBO’s were all F*cked over by Orrin Woodward. They could have banded together and sued him easily. Or at least have been able to get a court case. So if any one of you can give me a your personal case like Morgan V. Woodward, or if you guys all got together and sued at one time. Any data like that I would enjoy reading it over. I mean Matt Abraham was one of the best lawyers in Michigan. He is no longer around. I feel if he was screwed, he would have been easily able to beat Orrin in court. Or defend you guys in court. So I would like to see the court cases you all had against Orrin. Did anyone sue him out of all you ex IBO’s?

  52. noteam permalink
    April 26, 2014 6:27 pm

    Chris (aka TEAM/LFE troll doll) – regarding suing Orrin. After the millions and millions of dollars Orrin has scammed, he has tens and tens of millions of dollars to not only fight a lawsuit but to tangle people up with bogus suits. See what happened to Raquel Peters when she started speaking the truth. Everyone who was there knows she is speaking the truth. Yet Orrin’s crew have her tied up with legal fees.

    Unfortunately, in America, sometimes the ones who win in court are the ones with millions to find technicalities to cover their fraud.

  53. chris permalink
    April 26, 2014 8:04 pm

    Oh ok, so no one sued. Out of 20 Roundtables and 10 Diamonds no one sued. Got ya. So collectively a group that earned like 20 million a year, who all got scammed out of their livelihood and one of them being one of the best business lawyers in Michigan who has never lost a case in 9 years. In a state where Amway has a whole city dominated and a guy like Devos who has massive political and business pool and was at the time trying to sue Orrin. Ok I understand. So Orrin is so rich and so amazing at loop holes, that Thirty of you could not get your own millions together collectively and then have one of the states best lawyers, with first hand experience in the scam, to come defend you; mixed in with the potential of getting one of the most successful Business owners in the state to come back you, But Orrin has you guys beat. That makes sense. I got ya. I am sure as a whole group just those diamonds IBO’s who broke away from Orrin had more money alone. Let alone 20 roundtables. That totally makes sense, that none of you thought of a law suit. You thought, Man, we got more money collectively, a great legal guy, and we since Orrin Scammed us it is easy to see this proof. Should we take him down and sue his ass off and expose him? No, let’s just post on a popular negative MLM site for the next 8 years. That makes total sense

  54. switch permalink
    April 27, 2014 4:16 am

    AWWW….that’s too bad, chris…..we all see now you’ve got your undies all tied up in a knot.

    what a great way to represent your scamming cult.

    btw, still waiting your response.

  55. amused permalink
    April 27, 2014 4:48 am

    He found a way to “win” an argument: Throw out such vast volumes of bs and overwhelm everyone with stupidity so that it’s difficult to address any one point.
    I’m afraid there’s no daylight around his head right now and this is pretty pointless. (Which he’ll see as a victory, I’m sure.)

    Chris, you really don’t know what you don’t know. You’re talking to people who have already been there. They know more than you about all this stuff.

    To anyone thinking about joining TEAM/LIFE or whatever – this is what you’ll soon be like. Take a good look at his rambling, hypocritical, bs-filled posts. This will be you on TEAM/LIFE.

  56. Melanie Morgan permalink
    April 27, 2014 7:18 am

    Amused~

    I couldn’t have summarized Chris’s BS any better than you just did!!

  57. chris permalink
    April 27, 2014 7:30 am

    Ya I guess. Except for all the stuff about commissions. Which people pretty much still haven’t touched with a ten foot poll cause it is hard to argue facts. But I guess I am full of BS Not that saying ” I speculate that AGO is a fake charity” will never answering what this group’s charity (which clear there is no major one) is, that is not BS.

    Go ahead and insult me. you know that I put out the most concrete data out of all the people you talk to on here. And a lot of you don’t even want to acknowledge it anymore cause it would make your argument fall flat on its face. Like the commission and legal training. The problem with you anti-mlmers is you’re jackasses and you operate in reverse.

    like all my friends who I don’t talk to anymore much since my involvement. I called them one time, showed them the plan one time. They said “no”, which is fine. And after that I never brought this business up again to them. But everytime I seen them after that they would start out with a friendly insult of, “Hey how’s you cult?” or “You a millionaire yet buddy?” or “How is your get rich quick thing going?” And I would blow it off. Then I eventually got tired of them insulting me everytime I said hello so I stopped hanging out with them. And now they say “That LIFE thing made him think he is to good for us”. So my friendship with them is over because of LIFE. Not because they are giant assholes. – like I said jackass who operate in reverse.

    I suggest you guys start your own products. Sell your own cds for 3 bucks. You will only sell twenty a year because no one cares about your info, except yourselves. So you guys could just buy your own cds and then get turned on as you listen to yourselves talk. Morgan would really get juicy inside over that one for sure. Well my friends, have fun doing this blog thing for another 8 years, without stopping Orrin at all. Until we met again.

    Goodnight, kiss my balls.

  58. Melanie Morgan permalink
    April 27, 2014 7:47 am

    Chris Murphy~

    Amused is right,

    First, for someone who has ONLY been in 2 years, clearly “for the readers”…YOU can’t possibly know the “reality” you are nothing more than a puppet. You seen to think that just cuz there hasn’t been a lawsuit that it discredits the truth told here. Wrong move. But if there ever was a lawsuit, are you willing to go on the stand under oath and give your testimony to the exact words you just spewed as “fact” or the reality, Chris Murphy?

    Got the guts to say who told you ALL the libel BS you have spewed? You clearly weren’t even in. Your arrogance is truly astounding. You claim what you as as “reality” or facts then why doesn’t Orrin go publically with those LIES you have told here?

    You don’t want to be called on your lies or take responsibility for anything you say but if I were you I would be careful. John or I, the Dickies, or the “20 roundtable” you think you know so much about but and you haven’t even met any of them!! Nor could you possibly have seen any of them speak!

    You are a real piece of work and are nothing more than a pawn. YOU are a puppet. Your arrogance an hypocritical to say the least!

    As far as you hitting your “goal” for the “readers” you are an epic FAIL!

    And for the record, some of the things I “hate”: corruption, liars, cheats, thieves, rape, drugs, injustice, twisting of the Bible for financial gain, and other selfish agendas, false witness, and despise HYPOCRISY just to name a few….So when you call ME a “hater” make sure you quote me on the things I really HATE.

  59. chris permalink
    April 27, 2014 8:17 am

    Opps… got her flustered now. They talk about my panites in a bunch jeez

  60. Melanie Morgan permalink
    April 27, 2014 8:20 am

    Oh and btw Chris Murphy~

    Earth to Chris….It means NOTHING if LIEFERS claim benevolence…how great tho are… and I find it hysterical that you still don’t understand what a pyramid scheme is..I don’t care if Orrin had the holy grail, wouldn’t make their ‘business’ legit, and you are clueless if you don’t think the “loop holes” are played and ALWAYS have been!. 3 years to get rid of Team shady business, really? They worked so hard…pfft!

    You think you know it all, but fail and clearly ignore the rest of the story… Orrin called A/Q an illegal pyramid scheme with hopelessly over priced products. But told everyone else to continue to build the “best business bar none” all the way up to the minute they gave the word to resign! And for almost a decade saying it wasn’t a “pyramid scheme!”

    Also, it is clear you only want me and others to give the credit to the Team & Orrin and just praise the “material” (really you want us to say Orrin is the best thing that ever happened to us..WRONG)…or we couldn’t live without or gave us something we didn’t have…. (doesn’t change the facts)….open your eyes pal, this site is full of giving all the well deserved & ‘earned”credit to Orrin & mob….you just can’t see it!

    Why cuz it isn’t the “credit” you or more Orrin is looking for!

  61. Melanie Morgan permalink
    April 27, 2014 8:25 am

    Chris Murphy~

    Thanks for shinning brightly your true colors and how you “represent” your “LIEF” business, wasn’t it you who said don’t be an “IDIOT”….bahahahahaha

  62. Melanie Morgan permalink
    April 27, 2014 8:30 am

    Oh and wasn’t you who said ” God hates those who spread discord?”….Yes, yes it was!

    YOU are a hypocrite!

  63. April 27, 2014 8:42 am

    @chris murphy – Regarding your charity comment and questions, two things:

    1) AGO did not disclose their 990s until AFTER questions were raised regarding the organization. Transparency is a good thing, but it’s better when you are transparent from the beginning. Many of the facts that have been revealed — bankruptcies, foreclosures, property taxes not being paid, etc. — were never mentioned or discussed until AFTER they became the subject of public discussion. When someone is trying to sell you on a financial opportunity, don’t you think that their own financial history (with regards to what they are selling you) is relevant?

    2) I don’t understand why you’re asking what our charity is. This site is not a charity, so your question is irrelevant. The goal of this site is to warn people about the potential dangers with multi-level marketing companies, through the use of reader stories, facts, and analysis.

    Some more questions for you:

    3) Do you know when LIFE will issue a new IDS to go along with all of the compensation plan changes that you have been touting?

    4) What would your team members think if they knew you were talking negative about them on this forum?

    5) If your upline were to learn of your involvement on this site and told you to stop posting on this, would you do it? Why or why not?

  64. noteam permalink
    April 27, 2014 9:40 am

    Chris – The majority of Diamonds who left were involved in the Amway suit and all had to sign a non-disclosure – meaning most of the lies they found out about Orrin, they would not be allowed to bring up in a lawsuit.

    also, anyone involved in MonaVie would not be allowed to sue Orrin because MonaVie would cut them out of the deal also and then they would loose that business.

    I like the way you try to deflect (aka Orrin or Chris Brady) when discussing the lies and deceit of Orrin. “Oh yeah, if he was so bad, why didn’t anyone sue” instead of discussing the facts of what he did.

    Orrin is a liar, and one of the most dishonest businessman in our country and needs to be stopped.

  65. Melanie Morgan permalink
    April 27, 2014 10:31 am

    “Fourth, Melaine, Its not Chris L. Its Chris M. As in Murphy. As in a 29 year old man who lives in Redford, MI.”

    Who’s been in ONLY ” 2 years. Not on your team. My brother team. Direct to Orrin.”

    “I suggest you guys start your own products. Sell your own cds for 3 bucks. You will only sell twenty a year because no one cares about your info, except yourselves. So you guys could just buy your own cds and then get turned on as you listen to yourselves talk. Morgan would really get juicy inside over that one for sure. Well my friends, have fun doing this blog thing for another 8 years, without stopping Orrin at all. Until we met again.

    Goodnight, kiss my balls.”

    “Direct to Orrin”…..Way to go Chris you are direct to Orrin or mentored by Orrin & your brother….

    Find it funny they added the bozo’s from the “past” in their new clause?….

    For the “readers” you can see..Chris has clearly represented and validated many things from this site….and should be clear what their life changing information does system (by someone who claims to have pure motives and judges others hearts)..Here are the results are after for 2 years in that system!!…

    Orrin ought be proud…..You represent the Class act!

  66. Melanie Morgan permalink
    April 27, 2014 11:20 am

    Chris Murphy~

    Why haven’t you answered even 1 question of Amthrax’s, and a few others?

  67. chris permalink
    April 27, 2014 1:50 pm

    Because this never ends. Jesus Christ you guys have an endurance for argument I will give you that. I joined team in 2005. I went to an Open and thought this was stupid. Then Orrin did the night owl, I liked him and so I went to the winter major where DOT1/STEP was rolled out. I enjoyed the atmosphere. And that weekend gave me so much hope that I went into that Major a herion addict of 3 years, and I left that major and never touched drugs again in almost a decade. Yes I believe this information can change lives. That is a reason I defend it so strongly. It complete saved my life.

    Now at that time I never built the business back then because I was too worried what people would think of me. So I just read, listen and associated at the events. That is how I know you, Dickie and some of the others. I was part of the Don Freeze/Greg Rau organization.

    Through the information I got better at my employment and got promoted the to youngest manager in my companies history. At the same time we shifted over to Mona Vie and since I did not really build the business anyway, and I was not at all a fan of networking expense health beverages I did not transfer over. However I continued to get books and cds from my brother who stayed in the business., not every week but I was still getting some monthly. I moved up north for a bit and for a year didn’t see my brother. When I moved back down, I asked if he had any cds. It was 2012 at the time, and he told me that is what the business actual was now. No longer super juice, but the books and cds. Since I loved that part I signed up again. Our team is a group made up of the remaining people who were originally in the Freeze groups and the Dickie group. So I have members who were working with Dickie directly now in my group.

    Orrin is my “Direct PC” meaning I am in a group with no PC in between he and myself. I do not personally council monthly with Orrin, since I am not a Leader level. But when I hit power player , we go to his House, Yacht etc…

    As we can all see, I still have poor people skills and I get a bit fired up at what people think sometimes, I obviously am a poor example of a LIFE member. But it did get me off drugs and helps me move up corporate ladder, not to mention better parenting and relationship stuff and financial understand. This company has helped me a lot. It does create a income source for me. I see it help and affect people in my down line and up line. I know that my brother makes a portion of my sales, but he also will drive anywhere I need him to help me, has given me a lot of tools and assistance. So I don’t mind if he makes 5 bucks off of every hundred dollars I buy or retail. The amount of help he gives me has more then earned that. He doesn’t mind if they guy above does it to him, nor the guy above him mind that the guy above. People below me don’t mind if I earn $2.50 bucks off a Finance pack I helped them sell to their church and so on. However I am smart enough to do math and figure out legit systems. Ten people buying $1000 of products and then distributing $700 bucks back into the group based upon who did what is not illegal. And the only way a person at the bottoms loses out on that deal is if they are stuck at the bottom and never build a second team. That person would never make money ever. But if that ever happened it is because the person did not attempt to build down or wide, a.k.a. they did no work.

    See you guys see us as idiots who buy 500 bucks of stuff, make zero bucks in return, While Orrin makes a million bucks on it and then says some nice stuff to us and we blindly cheer like a cult of buffoons. So yes I don’t like you. Cause that is unbelievable cruel way to see us, and a down right Sh#tty way to view another human. We are group who AT MAX buy $340 bucks worth of stuff (many just buy $50), stuff we actually wanted to buy. And then out of that $350 we get a minimum of 30 bucks back. And from that everyone inbetween us and till Orrin gets a portion too. That excludes any direct commissions or 3 for free. Some of us “on the bottom” buy $160 of products and get a $160 reimbursement, plus a $80 sales check, plus we get to keep the materials that we wanted in the first place.

    I can’t got up to Dave Ramsey and learn his great teaching and love that info, and then next month get a $100 rebate for my materials, plus a $75 check for retailing 3 of them to my family. SEE that is the problem with you guys. You see only the Orrin side down. You never looked at it from our Angle. Even though you think you do because you were here once. But just think about your teams and during the transfer time when you guys didn’t want to follow Orrin. You saw yourself, and you main key freindships and Orrin. That was it. And now actually you’ve become cynical by all this, understandably, but now you really only see yourself and Orrin, But you forgot about that brand new guy who finally had hope and he joined your group in 2007 and was multiple levels beneath you guys. And you left and that guy lost his hope. I don’t blame you for it, but I can tell you guys don’t consider how we feel about this group. You guys care only about how you feel. If I love this information, you say I am brainwashed. If I thinks its great, you ask “It should be free if its so great”, but people sell bibles last time I checked, which is consider the greatest of great info. You guys can’t even imagine that we love this stuff. And when we do, you makes feel like we are absolute idiots, and you tell the world we are a bunch of mindless idiots. So if I come across angry ever, like I really don’t like – I can’t help it. You guys are so sh^tty to us, before we even know you exist. And then we type in Orrin’s name to read a blog – and we find you guys utterly trashing on us. It’s analogous to a black guy stumbling on a racist blog, its a little upsetting when someone you don’t know is talking about how much of a f**king loser and idiot you are. So we do come in here a little bit heated.

    Well, I really don’t have the endurance to argue much more. You guys have the ability to do it for a decade almost it seems. I have told you my life story. I know you won’t enjoy and more importantly I know you don’t care. I am just another one of your “stupid idiots”

  68. switch permalink
    April 27, 2014 2:43 pm

    a herion addict for 3 years….and WHALLA after one major, you haven’t used in almost a decade….

    I’m not even sure what to say to that, chris…

  69. chris permalink
    April 27, 2014 3:57 pm

    I am sure you understand 90% of the reason a person is a drug addict its because they think life is meaningless. Most of the people who join this business, whether or not they stick around, join because of the that big “what if” hope of a dream. Silly or not. So took a life that feels meaningless and add that big hope that you can make it and you get a person who walks away from one life and into another.

    Is the only talent you have to doubt everything? You literally lack faith in anything good ever happening. Well it did happen. And if I had not been brought into this group, I don’t think I would have stopped. So with that knowledge, how could I ever discredit this business? So obviously I won’t. And obviously you can’t phantom a positive impact is even possible on this side over here. So are we all done now? Since me vs. you guys is the old unstoppable object hitting the unmovable object situation.

  70. freedomhaha permalink
    April 27, 2014 6:19 pm

    Chris- Did you see Brent Hansen’s offer? You could make history by proving what everyone says on here about the percentage of people that make a profit at a given time.

  71. chris permalink
    April 27, 2014 10:24 pm

    I have no idea how to show my back office. whatever that means. Just assume my business looks like a triangle shaped object from Egypt. And everyone below me makes no percentage at all. And then I make 20% and surrender 80% to Orrin. And when ever I do get lucky to get a check, Orrin drops it off personally. Excepts he pours ketchup on it and eats it like a taco in front of me. And then he rapes my girl friend and steal my dog as he exits my house. But he leaves me a cd and after 40 mins I feel great.

    Speaking of pay plans, you guys did mess up some stuff on your IDS reverse enginner thing.

    You said we have 8 LIFE coaches. Not true. We had 8 PC back then. But some of the PC’s are not LIFE coach. Some of them are senior coordinator 12’s. Hawkins and MacNamara for sure are. Might be one of two more. Maybe Lewis and Hamilton. Doesn’t mean much. I figured I would tell you. All the percents are off.

  72. Melanie Morgan permalink
    April 28, 2014 1:15 pm

    Chris Murphy~

    “I have no idea how to show my back office. whatever that means.” I call LIE. You know damn well what the “back office” is Chris, how else do you see your “group?” And you want others to believe the real examples of BS about your group but DENY Brent’s request when asked to see it!

    Your came here trying to intentionally (mis) lead “prospects” into believing your intentions were somehow fair different than they clearly were.

    Accusations, FLAT out LIES, and more BS than a person can tollerate!

    Knowing full well this site has NEVER stopped someone else’s “view”, unlike ALL (numerous sites put up on TEAM/LIEF , including Orrin’s numerous ones) they ONLY allow praise & worship….hence never allow both view points.

    So Chris like all LIEFERS who have to twist, lie and accuse you have proven no different.

    1) Accuse others of just being “negative” and many other things, then do the very things you accuse of…Hypocrite, Check
    2) Down right LIE (then want others to believe you?) Check
    3) Admit everything is BS: See Chris comments April 27, 2014 7:30 am Check
    4) Throw the God card. When that fails move to #5. Check
    5) When all else fails, Play the victim. But continue to target and attack others. When that fails go to #6.Check
    6) Then go right back to the BS. Check

    Just like a true blue Liefer, Chris.

    Chris admits everything is BS: “Ya I guess. Except for all the stuff about commissions.” (intentionally mislead & feed a bunch of BS….

    Tell us again why you think any sane person or prospect should believe a word you say including the stuff about commissions?

    We agree on 1 thing, you have made this a complete waste of my time and energy.

  73. Melanie Morgan permalink
    April 28, 2014 1:18 pm

    Oh I forgot ADMIT to your slandered (libel) statements!!!!!!

    Did I miss anything else?

  74. switch permalink
    April 28, 2014 6:21 pm

    chris says-
    “I am sure you understand 90% of the reason a person is a drug addict its because they think life is meaningless.”

    no, but I actually understand it takes a shit-for-brains to stick the needle in for that very first time to get hooked….what good did that do ya?

    chris says-
    “Most of the people who join this business, whether or not they stick around, join because of the that big “what if” hope of a dream.”

    Here’s a little hint, chris….”what if” actually means your chances are extremely slim. The math never lies here.

    chris says-
    “Silly or not. So took a life that feels meaningless and add that big hope that you can make it and you get a person who walks away from one life and into another.”

    quit foolin’ yourself chris…..you sure do paint your pasture green don’t you….

    chris says-
    “Is the only talent you have to doubt everything?”

    Hell no….but when comes time for orrin and co marching into living rooms trying to tell the innocent families that M.V. “helps cure terminal illnesses” I honestly felt like shoving my boot straight up his partner’s ass. So I called his bluff…..how did that whole “M.V. thing” go again? Yea….exactly.

    “You literally lack faith in anything good ever happening.”

    Here’s the sad part about your statement here, chris, that you have never recognized…..there are so many other GOOD things in life besides orrin’s group….but it’s just too bad people like you have their heads so far down the team toilet that they can’t recognize anything else in life as being good or positive. If I “literally lack faith in anything good ever happening”, please list the charities, organizations, and people I have donated my time and money to please…..c’mon…I lack faith don’t I?

    chris says-
    “So are we all done now?”

    As far as i’m concerned, it’s far from over, chris so you mine as well sit back and enjoy the show.

    To be honest, I’m not sure if you sound like more of a liar now or when you were using heroin….

  75. Vogel permalink
    April 28, 2014 6:57 pm

    Slow clap…

  76. April 29, 2014 8:52 am

    I have been reading articles and comments on this site for several months now. I have taken an interest in Team/Life because of several family members who are involved. To be honest, I am grieved watching and hearing the mental gymnastics that people put themselves through trying to defend the deceptive business practices that they are involved in and are promoting.

    I know because I have a sister who is under the yoke of submission as this business calls wives to, and deems that that is her role in supporting her husband who has been involved on and off since Amway days. I fear that in the end they will lose everything because of his obsession, as they are financially strapped now with their home up for sale. They have been making excuses as to why it is, but we fear that it is because they need the money to ‘buy’ their way up to the next levels. That ‘treasure’ at the end of the rainbow, you know!! Her whole family is grieved for her, but feels helpless to stop it.

    Anyways, I came across an article in a magazine about people who have wandered into fortune-tellers parlors on a ‘lark’, if you will, and the similarities of ‘occurences’ between these two worlds is eye-opening. The anatomy of deception, and how innocently it all starts…

    Got a little time on your hands?

    (Psychic)…as you are wandering down a street, you come across a sign that says, “Psychic insights” (Team/Life)…while you are minding your own business, someone approaches you with a ‘life-changing’ offer.

    Your questions…Is it legit? Not a big deal, you reason…a little entertainment…so…(Psychic) you step inside the building (Team/Life)…you say ‘yes’ to a meeting

    Just a fun diversion…harmless

    Maybe at a low point…struggling? (maritally, financially, with children)

    Craving someone you can talk to?

    So…you enter, wondering what’s next…

    (Psychic) Inside, you will be ushered to a small table (Team/Life) Inside, you will be ushered to a table with company reps

    (Psychic) Next, you will be presented with a list of services she offers (Team/Life) You’ll be presented with a list of reasons why this is a good idea

    The first test….(Psychic) Handing over something valuable (Team/Life) Agreeing that it will be worth your time and efforts to invest in this business

    Do you trust??

    (Psychic) Finally found someone who cares and can help (Team/Life) Finally found someone who cares…upline mentors who can help us through the process and with sales and ‘life’ advice
    Bad news…

    (Psychic) Money is the ‘root of your problems’
    (Team/Life) You don’t have enough money…you could have so much more

    Credentials…(Psychic) Been doing this ‘business’ since a young girl
    (Team/Life) Our esteemed leaders have been in this from ‘Amway’ days

    They regard themselves as (Psychic) ‘A Life Coach’ (Team/Life) “Life Coaches”

    Claiming they are…(Psychic) An Independent contractor who is hired by clients for her keen ability to offer guidance (Team/Life) Independent ‘business owners’ who offers life-coaching materials that come with tools and guidance

    In essence…a combination of..(Psychic) 1.Psychologist 2.Social Worker 3. Spiritual Teacher 4. Friend
    (Team/Life) Overseer of ‘life issues’…”the 7 F’s” (same issues as stated by psychic)

    Their claims…(Psychic) “I gave my life to help these people…some have been clients for 20-40 yrs” (Team/Life) “We give our lives to help people. Some of us have been followers since Amway days.”

    Do you still trust? (Psychic) “Come back tomorrow” you’re told. (Team/Life) “Come every Tues. night and bring friends”

    Negativity is a problem (Psychic) “With this attitude, nothing can be done for you…” (Team/Life) “You will need a positive attitude to encourage sales”

    Turns out you’ve been cursed!! (Psychic) Claims she can block this curse…that’s what I’m here for, to help you! (Team/Life) You must be ‘cursed with that job’ that you can be free from if you just follow ‘our system’
    Best of all, they will do it for ‘free’. It’s their ‘life’s work’! ‘Their purpose’!!!

    (Psychic) “Turn over a large sum of money. This money must be cleansed from evil. Get over your fixation on money…this is serious! (Team/Life) Trust our system, our process…give us your credit card # and you are on your way! It will work for you if you let it!

    The hook…set! (Psychic) You have lost thousands from her and want to get it back (Team/Life)You start paying out for books and seminars…it’s an investment, you reason!

    But…you continue down this path…all the time believing that it will all return to you! No time to back down…give more money…more work…

    The tragedy…all were looking for ‘hope’

    Down the road, little did you know the longing that you would have for all that lost time and money back…and long for all the relationships that you lost along the way to ‘your dream’.

    And this scenario is lived out time and time again with thousands and thousands of people. My heart aches for my sister. I love her more than life, and ache to see where this is leading them. I pray daily that God will deliver them from this highway of deception…not only them but the people that they are influencing with these lies. These ‘masters of deceit’ who call themselves ‘Christians’ should be looking out from behind bars, and should be so ashamed of the lives that they have set on the trail to the wasteland of brokenness…someday their faces will flash before them and they will be filled with regrets! Any problem that anyone is going through will be met with a good book to read without Team/Life. The Bible (filled with all the answers you will need for life and practice) and your Christian bookstore are brimming full of wonderful resources for those who struggle. Anyways, if this effort on my part has discouraged someone from setting their feet on either of these paths,(Team/Life or psychic), then it was well worth the time spent on my part. Praying for you, Chris, that God will open your eyes. I won’t yell at you! I pray that God will open your eyes to His truth and His path for your ‘Life’!!

    [Editor’s note: Added paragraph breaks for better readability]

  77. April 29, 2014 9:02 am

    Chris,

    Your scenario about the 20 people sounds logical, but in my experience we were lucky if more than 2 people out of 20 did anything…and that was when we had actual products to sell.

    Don Freeze is an excellent individual. Have you spoken to him directly about what happened and why he left TEAM? I would bet it would be eye opening. Until you have both sides of the story, how can you form a legitimate opinion?

    I’m glad that TEAM stepped into the 21st century and now has Rascal Radio. By offering this along with the hard copies of the same material, it will allow them to double dip. I can’t believe they didn’t come up with this sooner.

    P.S. Your “kiss my balls” comment was hilarious. You must watch South Park! I like the sense of humor, but I’ll have to pass!

  78. April 29, 2014 9:10 am

    There’s a good article today from A (MLM) Skeptic on probability neglect that’s worth reading.

    http://amlmskeptic.blogspot.com/2014/04/scam-psychology-do-you-really.html

    Chris – if there were only 4-5 LIFE Coaches, it makes the numbers look worse, not better. The percentages stay the same, but the number of total members goes down from 71,000 members to 36,000-45,000. Chris can write up any number of scenarios were if people did this and did that, they could keep expenses down and make money, but what’s truly representative of reality? Are LIFE members encouraged to keep track of their income and expenses monthly, quarterly and annually?

  79. Chris permalink
    April 29, 2014 10:25 pm

    See platinum blonde gets it! Melanie Learn from her. Cause your posts look like you’re about to have a heart attack.
    I am a LIFE member. You guys are Amthrax. We are rival gangs who must fight to the death. Can’t we have a little fun with it atleast? Jeez. I mean what do you think is gonna happen? I quit due to your opinions? Or you guys stop your crusade due to my opinions? Of course not. Its a game we play. If we didn’t exist you guys would have nothing to do. If you didn’t exist I would have to fight my socialistic loving friends when I was annoyed. So if its in our destiny to be mortal enemies, I think a little fun is in order.

    Platinum blonde – for a minute my brother kinda feel off too, but he still held his spot. And so when he decide to start getting back in the loop he called Don Freeze to see where the main Open for our team was. We were pretty decent business friends of Don’s originally. But Don just said.

    ” Well, we actually aren’t involved anymore, but I can send you to ( current upline) which is were our remaining group has transeferred too.” and my brother kinda asked Don if something was messed up, since Don quit. And even though Don was close enough to tell us stuff he just said
    “No, some people kinda tapered off at the switch, and we just felt like retiring and so we just did not wanna be consider leaders when we just wanted to enjoy our older years together at home so we stopped. But (current upline) is a good friend still and we are still friends with everyone.”
    So Don did not tell us anything negative and he was a great hearted man and would have spilled the beans to us. And he was really tight with Dickie too. So that is why I don’t feel the anger you guys do. Don would have told us something bad happened if we asked him. He wouldn’t have just tossed us to Orrin if he knew Orrin was a bad man.

    Side notes: You all know damn well I sure can’t show you my personally home page business page. I would get in so much trouble posting my business on the internet. Make fun of my business ‘freedom’ all you want. But you guys would never had down that yourselves either so come on now. Also because I mess with you guys a bit, I don’t feel like posting my up line’s name. Because he is a good man and well, quite frankly I am a jerk🙂 But I am also cool. But like I said, rival gangs man, come on. This is the dance we do. Got to make it fun and spicy. So just breathe Mel and chillax sweetheart

  80. Chris permalink
    April 29, 2014 10:34 pm

    Platinum blonde – Your rascal radio double dip thing made me laugh. it was a clever little ” its cool to see they did this fantastic thing to do you twice” that is funny. Like a rope a dope. Start it with a compliement and end it with a insult. You’re my favorite MLM basher by leaps and bonds. Your like the Juliet of this gang. Melanie is the bear you like to poke with a stick, But one day she might embrace my ridiculous.

  81. No LIEf Thank You permalink
    April 30, 2014 3:26 am

    25% commission on an over priced product…yeppie…

  82. Melanie Morgan permalink
    April 30, 2014 9:05 am

    Chris (or Aka which TOP liefer…..you seem to like to hide behind many screen names)~

    You should have just used “Charlie Sheen” to hide behind and stuck with it. You seriously need some help.

    You are sadly mistaken and we are universes apart in our morals, values, and reasons for being here.

    “Mortal enemies?” Is that how you have convinced yourself to sleep at night?

    It is “just business”, Chris?….. Do you also believe it’s worth it… to gain the whole world and lose your soul?

  83. Melanie Morgan permalink
    April 30, 2014 9:13 am

    You clearly don’t believe in or is it you think you can defy consequences.

  84. Chris permalink
    April 30, 2014 9:37 am

    Jeez o pete’s so dramatic. Take everything so literal and straight to the heart. Look here is why I even mess around. This whole deal is ridiculous to me. All of the anti-MLM sites are 90% people’s personal opinions – which you can’t argue. I mean a personal experience is still an opinion right. Facts would be a hard core evidence. So anytime you post a personal story with just the story it would be an opinion, true or false, it is still a person’s view of a situation aka opinion. Then the other 10% is data that you could post about every single business out there. Ever business has silly rules and bylaws. Every business (especially franchise ones) have a compensation plan that could easily get looked at and debated.

    If you look at the basic definitions of all this stuff it goes like this:
    Every business sells a product or service to a customer. The customer must buy the product or service for the business to survive. The business key principal is to make sure they sell as many products or services as possible. That is a business.

    Now MLM business does that same principal, but the way they operate is by telling the customer if they are willing to be a loyal, regular customer they will pay them a rebate return for their loyalty. And if that customer wants to drive traffic and refer customers to the company they allow them to be involved in a profit sharing program.

    Now P-90x, party-lite, Pure Romance and Pampered chef, among others are all MLMs. But they hardly get criticized by anyone because they are more inclined to represent the product side of there business and not their compensation plan side of it. And anytime a Networking company represents the business side of their company a little more strongly than the product side, they start getting the red flag groups point out all kinds of things. Now Orrin is probably one of the more noticeable people who represents the business aspect the strongest in the industry. So of course he is going to really attract the red flag groups more than most.

    But its basically him saying “Hey if you shop with us vs. Tony Robbins, we will give you a rebate check. And if you word of mouth advertise for our company we will give you some profit sharing.” No promises, the IDS shows the numbers and figures for stuff. No one is forced to by training materials. Highly recommend sure, but that is not a force. Its a customer choice. They agree to buy it, and life agrees to give them products for the money they spent. Now for some odd reason a lot of the members who get going begin to almost worship the owners in the companies like this. But that is a weird occurrence that is never taught on a stage. No PC members ever comes up and says “If you don’t think Orrin is the greatest person alive, then you’re an idiot.” Human beings just have a hero worship bug and they do it with Sports, Music and for whatever reason religionious preachers and Personal development teachers.

    But its just another franchise opportunity. You pay 35 buck for a member site that is all professionally done for you and is back up with tech support. You buy products that you can earn money on, not a junky product you had to design yourself and hand out that look like a basement start silly unprofessional item. A professional looking product. You guys act like we pay money for nothing. They give you a whole distribution processing team and product shipping and distribution for you. They inventory for you, they invent products for you. They do all the business stuff for you, at a 35 dollar start up fee and a 18 dollar renew fee. Go get a real business and see how much hassel it is to get a customer, track it and ship it out to him. That is definitely worth a 35 dollar fee. And the ten dollar cd gives you a ten dollar cd. If you enjoyed the cd and listen to it hundreds of times, it was worth ten dollars. I love Nine Inch Nails. I enjoy there cd. It is 15 bucks. Now one gets mad at that though. This is not brainwashed dribble its obvious stuff. You guys act like we are forced to pay 10 grand to LIFE and never get anything for it. Its never even close to 10 grand. We wanted the products. They gave them to us. And they handle the frustrating business aspects for us. And it is never a forced situation.

    P.s. I use different names cause its funny to read Sham a lama ding dong I think.

  85. noteam permalink
    April 30, 2014 10:03 am

    Chris – In regard to your purchasing a Nine Inch Nails cd for $15. The difference is Nine Inch Nails does not follow up by getting you to commit to every Tuesday Night, one Saturday a month, 3 Majors a year and another $300-500 worth of crappy CD’s every month leading you on with the lie that you will be wealthy if you just come to ‘one more function’ to ‘learn the secret’.
    Nine Inch Nails does not leave 90% of their fans thousands and thousands of dollars in debt.

  86. Vogel permalink
    April 30, 2014 2:58 pm

    Chris said: “Ever business has silly rules and bylaws. Every business (especially franchise ones) have a compensation plan that could easily get looked at and debated.”

    Ah yes, the well-worn “everything is bad and this is no worse” defense. Problem is (a) it’s untrue, and (b) we’re not talking about any other business plans; just those that Orrin has been a part of; and actually, this thread is specifically about Lazyman’s comments, and you have derailed that discussion.

    Chris said: “Now MLM business does that same principal, but the way they operate is by telling the customer if they are willing to be a loyal, regular customer they will pay them a rebate return for their loyalty. And if that customer wants to drive traffic and refer customers to the company they allow them to be involved in a profit sharing program.”

    They don’t pay them a rebate for loyalty; they simply overcharge them slightly less. It would be like if I offered you a small bag of dirt for $100 but with the opportunity to buy it for $80 if you commit to making the purchase every month and recruiting others to do so. In either case, it’s still an overpriced bag of dirt you’re buying.

    No MLM that Orrin has ever been a part of has offered a “profit sharing program” to its rank and file distributors, let alone to its customers. Clearly, you don’t understand the meaning of the terms “profit-sharing program” or “customer”. Similarly, not one of these companies has ever offered so much as a red cent for “driving traffic” or “referrals”. They merely pay scant commissions on sales – and even then, only sometimes; they have numerous clauses built into the compensation plan that make it difficult to get paid (e.g. letting PV drop means that work performed will go uncompensated). Understanding an MLM compensation plan and all of its slippery clauses is next to impossible for the average participant. It may as well be written in Sanskrit.

    Chris said: “Now for some odd reason a lot of the members who get going begin to almost worship the owners in the companies like this. But that is a weird occurrence that is never taught on a stage. No PC members ever comes up and says “If you don’t think Orrin is the greatest person alive, then you’re an idiot.” Human beings just have a hero worship bug and they do it with Sports, Music and for whatever reason religionious preachers and Personal development teachers.”

    That’s arguably the most dishonest thing you’ve said yet, and you had already set the bar high. Hero worship is expected and it is standard operating procedure to indoctrinate participants to edify their uplines and the organization’s kingpins. It is ROUTINELY taught on stage; in fact, the desperate charade of parading around big money earners is predicated on that very principle (even though the people they parade are typically not big money earners but rather lying bankrupt sad sacks).

    No human being would ever have a natural affinity to worship an overbearing little maggot like Orrin or any of his fork-tongued underlings. Your cult preys on people using peer pressure and coercive tactics to exploit desperation, greed, ignorance, vulnerability, and the desire for group belonging.

    Chris said: “But its just another franchise opportunity.

    No, it is not. You apparently don’t understand the meaning of the term “franchise” either. An MLM membership is not a franchise; it is merely a license to be taken advantage of; a certificate to prove to the world that you’re a sucker.

    Chris said: “ “P.s. I use different names cause its funny to read Sham a lama ding dong I think.”

    Hmmm. Acting like an incoherent clown isn’t a wise tactic if your aim is to defend Orrin, but it is pretty typical of what we have come to expect from those in his camp. A more ineffectual, dishonest bunch of poseurs would be hard to come by.

    [Editor’s note: added blockquotes]

  87. Thankfulandnotbitter permalink
    April 30, 2014 3:20 pm

    If someone goes thousands of dollars in debt in the business then shouldn’t they be the ones held accountable for how they spent their money? One of the biggest problems this world faces is people pointing fingers! Take responsibility for your decisions and quit blaming it on the business. If you can’t afford to build a business, then don’t. Common sense. Some of the most defining moments in our lives came from being a part of LIFE. No regrets. Most of the time the problem is not the problem, the problem is your attitude about the problem. We spent more then we made but we are not bitter about it because you can’t even put a price on the life knowledge we were given through our journey. We don’t build anymore, that was our choice as our priorities have changed and we couldn’t commit but our leaders are the most sincere, honest, humble friends and I could never walk away bitter from our experience!! My advice to anyone on here who is holding onto any hurts, anger and bitterness because of what happened to you while in business, give it to God! He is your vindicator and let Him heal you! Life wasn’t meant to be lived in a state of anger and distrust and always in attack mode! It is meant to be lived focused on His will for you! Don’t dwell on your problems. Focus on His promises. Knowing that God will never forsake you, will help you face every obstacle with hope and perseverance John 8:32

    Let go and let God!! God Bless you all and you’re in my prayers! I hope you all find peace in this lifetime!! Good luck🙂

  88. April 30, 2014 4:38 pm

    @Thankfulandnotbitter – Thank you for your first comment. You’re certainly entitled to your opinion. Others may disagree based on their experiences and interpretations of the facts. What’s good about this site is that all opinions can be expressed and discussed.

  89. noteam permalink
    April 30, 2014 5:36 pm

    Thankfulandnotbitter – A common deflection technique used by Orrin. “If someone went deeply in debt, shouldn’t they take responsibility?”
    Sounds great to someone on the outside who never saw the manipulation techniques utilized in Orrin’s cult. But once someone is indoctrinated in the TEAM/LIFE cult, things are very different. You are definitely pressured in front of others to make the commitment to buy tools and tickets. It gets to the point where the only reason you buy tools is because you don’t want everyone to thing you are the only un-loyal person who has not been to the tool room. Then when a new label is put on the same CD, you are pressured to re-purchase the same CD with the new label.

    Look at the bankruptcy from Darkangelo. This was one of the absolute top leaders in TEAM/LIFE, with direct access to coaching from Orrin himself. Yet he ran up over $200,000 worth of consumer debt.

    This is much more than selling tools. This is a mind-controlling, manipulative bunch of scammers who could care less about anyone but themselves. Unfortunately, so many of us are embarrassed that we allowed this to happen to ourselves so we don’t broadcast it to the world. But it would be interesting if we could see literally how many tens of thousands of people had the exact same thing happen to them as a result of TEAM/LIFE scam.

    I will say this, every single person who I have personally come in contact with who has left TEAM/LIFE has had the exact same experience, and the exact same sense of shame, and the exact feeling of feeling lost and alone as a result of alienating so many people for so long because of TEAM’s doctrine.

  90. Thankfulandnotbitter permalink
    April 30, 2014 6:31 pm

    I was on the “inside” I’ve seen and heard it all, the difference is I am not going to blame anyone for my personal choices. It may or may not be a deflection for Orrin but either way, he is right. People do need to stop playing the victims and own up to their decisions whether it brings shame or not! If He is as big of a crook as you believe him to be then have faith in The Lord that his time is coming. But don’t let it consume your life! I am astonished reading through comments at how many hours and months and years certain people have spent here just hating on a man that means nothing in their lives anymore. Why pour that much into something that is not bringing any sort of peace or closure in your life. I know you would argue that you are trying to protect people but if that isn’t bringing you any solace in your personal life, why bother? It’s really not my place or business. Everyone deals with things in there own way. Again I really hope you all find good in your experience whether it be what not to do when approached to join an mlm, or maybe learning to let go and move forward with your lives. You won’t find joy in your life being negative. No matter how bad you’ve been cheated. Hoping for peace of mind for all of you! No one deserves to be held captive by their past or shame and guilt! Best wishes! God bless!!

  91. Chris permalink
    April 30, 2014 6:34 pm

    lol. You guys have such a weird concept of the people in this community. The people I see all the time are just like everyone else I see in life. Minus maybe the sagging pants and swearing. I swear you make it seem like such an “Uhm by way my Orrin, Uhm by way” cult. Like the talk about Duck Dynasty still. And they make fun of stuff that people do on stage sometimes. And they will talk about a cd they thought was kinda pointless. Look if you guys had a team, and they were that weird like that, I think they followed the leader if you know what I mean. The people I see all the time are not some hokey pokey drink the Kool aid, bow before Orrin Nazi type mob rule of people who run around severing all ties with their wife and kids type people. I have no idea who y’all met in my Biz like that. But they weren’t in my group or open or seminar. So you guys must have had a strange culture you created. Or you just happen to met the worst of the worst by coincidence.

  92. Thankfulandnotbitter permalink
    April 30, 2014 6:52 pm

    @chris as a current business owner, why do you entertain these people? If you whole heartedly believe in what you’re doing, then there should be no need to defend it. With all do respect perhaps your time would be better spent somewhere else? Best wishes!!

  93. freedomhaha permalink
    April 30, 2014 7:02 pm

    Thankfulandnotbitter- It was the people that have spent hours of their lives on here that saved mine! If they wouldn’t have done that I still may have be involved in TEAM. The men and women on here helped me in ways that I cannot measure. The reason I stick around is to help families. I shudder every single time I think of the money that I spent in TEAM and all the brainwashing that occurred.

    My phases in leaving team went it three main phases. First, I was completely embarrassed, then I was angry, and now I am determined to help others.

  94. Thankfulandnotbitter permalink
    April 30, 2014 7:22 pm

    @freedomhaha Fair enough! I’m not trying to be offensive by any means! I spent a lot of money in the biz also but I guess I’m not as bitter over it because I got the majority of it back via tax return. I have friends whom I’ve watched struggle in the business, I also have ones who gained great success very quickly. It’s not for everyone, it just isn’t. I get that! When it was time for me to walk away, I did. No turning back. I have friends in business still whom I consider some of the greatest people I have ever met. It’s not my place to tell them how to live there lives. I know there is a divine power at work in God and I pray they are on their right path. If you want to help others, I would encourage doing it with love not by trash talking. I feel as though my time here is done! Again best wishes to you all! I hope you find what you’re looking for.

  95. NoLiefThankyou permalink
    May 1, 2014 3:08 am

    @thankfulandnotbitter I would question whether you got back what you spent via taxes since depending on you tax bracket you only receive back a portion of total dollars spent. Like, hey I just spent $10k to save $2.5k in taxes. Not good math…I think it is a service what people do on this forum to show all side of what’s going on with “the biz” and bring some reality to the smoke and mirrors.

  96. freedomhaha permalink
    May 1, 2014 5:53 am

    Thankfulandnotbitter- Thank you for sharing! I try to stay away from trash talking rather use facts to try and get current TEAM members here to think critically about what they are doing in the business. I am compelled to do this because I to have people that I love that are still inside the cult and I can’t wait to get them back in my life, however it is nearly impossible until they leave.

  97. Chris permalink
    May 1, 2014 6:11 am

    Thankful, I just have a personality of goof ball-ness and sarcastic jokes. I am definitely for a group that of “its for who its for” The peope who get it find it silly and fun and enjoy it, the ones who don’t get massively offended. So I just like to class clown it in here. I still have a life with much time well spent in major areas. But I like to goof ball the pontificators and Elsa, the great Ice Queen. They are devoid of a sense of humor. You post a stupid comment, and instead of getting a laugh, you see a nine page return that has 80 of all the quotes you ever wrote in your whole life in a article by the “Pontificator” or you get 5 messages in a row that progress in there aggressive ‘getting-worked-up-titude’ about how I lack a soul and abandon my family and such by “Elsa”. If I was overly sensitive it would make me super upset and defensive, if I was a little leaf blowing in the wind with no backbone I would quit from them. But since I am a goof ball I get tickled by how much effort and time they take to debate with a guy who is obviously messing with them. Makes me even wonder why they make the effort on me. It just makes them look silly for even giving me attention

  98. I QUIT (and glad I did) permalink
    May 1, 2014 6:38 am

    Hey guys… Chris has self-identified as the thorn in your side. Its been evident from the get-go he’s just out to poke you into response. He’s not worth responding to. Just my opinion.

  99. Thankfulandnotbitter permalink
    May 1, 2014 6:39 am

    I know I said I was done but I guess I really wasn’t😉 I understand. I am not here to judge. If you want to have any influence on your loved ones, It is much more effective to do so in love, that’s my advice to you!! People respond better when they feel respected not attacked or misunderstood. I know it is hard to leave for some, for me it was easy. Even though I poured my whole life into it for 3 years. I was deeply betrayed by a certain person in biz, although that’s not why I left, I guess that was the beginning of the end for me. Greed and idolism makes people do things they wouldn’t normally do. I didn’t like that aspect of the biz, always chasing more money and trying to always be better then the next person. I found God through my experience which is definitely the most important part of my journey. So I can’t look back in anger. Like I said in my previous post, the most pivotal points in my life came from being a part of the team. I lost the desire to chase money and lavish things because my priorities changed to focus on the Lord and so far He has provided me with all that I need🙂 God is so good!!! I bury my treasures in Heaven now and I couldn’t be more vindicated and happier! Remember everything happens for a reason and people have their own paths to live out. It may pain you to see your loved ones involved in something you don’t agree with but if you value your relationships then let them figure it out for themselves. You don’t want to offend them or hurt them. Pray lots! The Lord is always listening and ready to answer prayer! Trust in the Lord with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding; in all your ways submit to him, and he will make your paths straight. Proverbs 3:5-6.
    With love
    Thankful and not bitter

  100. May 1, 2014 8:31 am

    @Chris – if your intention is to troll, your future comments may be moderated.

    @All – I agree with I QUIT (and glad I did), don’t feed the trolls.

  101. Chris permalink
    May 1, 2014 1:27 pm

    Man, when i first came on, i wanted to debate with you all and we did. But then i relized how no matter what i did you guys you not accept a single shred of anything i had to add in to the debate. Even if some of it was somewhat plausible (SEE the last comment made on the page about LIFE IDS) So when i realized you were gonna just treat me like an idiot no matter what i said, i just got bored with it all and decided to have fun. And i was absolutely amazed how long you guys engaged with me after that point. Like i was clearly being dumb some point last week. Platinum blonde got it and laughed a bit casue she is cool, and probably super cute too. But you guys keep with me for like a week of nonsense. It astounded me. But now I am just a boy with a dream. A networker who is eternally banned from amthrax. It would look good on the resume. So lets do that. Moderate me forever.

    [Editor’s note: Chris’ comments will now be pre-moderated until further notice.]

  102. Thankfulandnotbitter permalink
    May 1, 2014 1:46 pm

    Credibility by James M. Kouzes and Barry Z. Posner @chris you can find this in the system. I would recommend you give it a read! You have to realize these people are speaking from their own personal experience. You can’t discredit their opinions. You engaged with them just the same. You are still engaging, why are you so amazed at their participation? Take my advice, spend your time somewhere else. If you want your business to keep its credibility, don’t spend time here trying to defend it. Best of luck!!

  103. freedomhaha permalink
    May 1, 2014 2:26 pm

    Thankfulandnotbitter- Thank you for your contribution on here!

  104. Chris permalink
    May 1, 2014 3:42 pm

    I hear ya. Just got annoyed with the non stop inability to see any side of my talks. even when I posted good stuff, they not only had to be totally closed minded, they felt the need to tell me I was a retard, horrible evil and corrupt. Just basically that I was scum mixed with satan’s poop for quoting numbers or direct commission sales. And after awhile I thought “screw these people with a pine apple.” But then Melanie had to post like a six post article in my absence and it basically made me just decide to be a d*ck for the fun of it. Two wrongs don’t make a right. Not proud of it. I am better then that. But still, the people you call friends on here thankful – they are closed minded a$$holes. Anytime I breathed a word against theirs I was instantly the dumbest man alive. They are worse than bible thumpers who hate gay marriage. In my opinion which you said its fine to share my personal opinion. I understood it was fine for them. But they never understood it was fine for me. Sure they freely allowed me to, but they are massively intolerant to all of us…. and thankful you know they totally are. even if people want to defend or explain it away. Anti-mlm groups are some of the most intolerant folks I ever seen. Either you share their point of view, or your a retarded, satan loving brain washed loser who’s kids hate them and wife wants to leave them.Look at all your sites. you see that the opinion y’all have. You’re D – holes. Peace out my haters. I am leaving you. So Melanie – don’t got posting 9 things when I leave acting like a tough guy that won. Or Vogul either. Don’t highlight all 50 sentences in this thing to wrote a 12 page book of how awesome you are to be able to contradict every word I utter. Cause I will be back. and I will have to get banned.

  105. May 1, 2014 4:50 pm

    Chris, maybe your crew thinks you’re funny. To me, you sound like the guy who laughs at his own jokes before he’s even done telling them and guilts everyone around into laughing because they feel embarrassed for you. If you’re going to sit around and sniff your own farts, at least pull the plastic bag off your head. It’s cutting off your air supply.

    There are no gang rivals here, only the non-ignorant. If you want to prance around and play grabass while acting like a total knob…wait, too late. Never mind.

    If/when the newness wears off, your conscience slaps you upside the head and you realize that lying today never manifests a better tomorrow, feel free to join us and warn others about the scam before they fall victim to it like we did. Until then, save it for amateur night at the Funny Bone.

  106. Brent Hansen permalink
    May 1, 2014 6:56 pm

    Chris, anytime you would like to have a real conversation outside of this blog feel free to shoot me your contact information. I would be glad to discuss the finer points of my 12 years of experience with this “business” in a private setting.

    hansen.brent@rocketmail.com.

  107. Vogel permalink
    May 1, 2014 10:44 pm

    Bump to PJ!

  108. Thankfulandnotbitter permalink
    May 2, 2014 6:07 am

    @chris I don’t agree with everything I see on this site. I can’t say i disagree with everything either! These people have had their own personal experiences and this site is a place for them to feel connected with people who’ve had similar experiences. It is a community just like the one you share in your business plan. I just don’t know why you are here? How is it helping your business to be here? If your up line knew you were here, I’m sure it would be much less then favourable. I know from what I’ve seen, you certainly would not be someone I’d do business with! How do you behave in such a way and then expect to be looked at as a leader? I think you need to read more, listen to more CDs!! Isn’t that how everything is excused in the biz? I’ve been there too my friend, it is such a fabricated way of existing but that’s just my opinion. It was my cup of tea until it wasn’t. It isn’t like a pool of zombies in the team but it is rather annoying to hear everyone use the same phrases. It’s like everything I heard in the team about the sheep of society and how the team is teaching you how to think for yourself. Except it isn’t teaching you to think for yourself when you sound like everyone else in the team. In the same way Chris, that you pose the same arguments on this site that can be seen numerous times by other team members who come on here to defend the biz. In my opinion it is the worst thing you can do to be different from the crowd. I sincerely hope nothing but the best for you but a good place for you to start is learning when to chime in and when to zip your lip. You are likely a sanguine personality as am I! It takes a lot of practice and discipline to keep your mouth closed in situations that pose a threat to yourself or to even handle the situation in a mature manner but trust me, you can be much more effective by your silence then your speaking out in an emotional state. They have plenty of books for that in the system too! Read them, apply them in your life🙂 Best wishes!!

  109. May 2, 2014 7:39 am

    @ Thankfulandnotbitter,

    If you were able to just up and walk away, my guess is that you didn’t hit a very high pin level. Unless you were Round Table or one of the higher levels, you definitely did not “see and hear it all”.

    Also, you do no understand the purpose and goal of this blog. We are not on here to whine and wallow in self-pity. Our one and only goal is to let unsuspecting people know what kind of a scam business TEAM/LIFE is and to inform them that Orrin is NOT what he appears to be.

    @ Chris,

    You said, “No PC members ever comes up and says “If you don’t think Orrin is the greatest person alive, then you’re an idiot.”” I beg to differ, there was a TEAM CD (maybe one of you Media Warriors know which CD it was, I don’t recall the CD number) on which Chris Brady spoke of that very thing and ridiculed people who thought they were “Smarter Than Orrin”.

  110. Thankfulandnotbitter permalink
    May 2, 2014 8:53 am

    Don’t discredit me @platinumblonde you don’t even know me sweetheart. If your sole purpose is to inform unsuspecting people, why then do you entertain arguing with people who disagree with your views? Not speaking to you alone but to everyone here. There is more to this site then informing people of the “scam” because the majority of time spent here is trash talking and criticizing in the most distasteful manner. I don’t agree with digging into people’s personal lives to prove a point. It is unnerving and completely bias! Then to joke about it is so inhumane and there is so much to be said about that! How does that make you any better as a human being then the bad people at the top? There is something to be said about credibility in the way you handle any situation. It’s really evident to me what is credible on this site and what isn’t. I hope people are wise enough to see for themselves what is fair and true and what isn’t. It is so transparent that people are hurt and need a place to vent and be heard and feel connected. Argue differently all you want but it is obvious by how quick people are to attack anyone who disagrees with the views on this site. I may or may not have seen and heard it all who cares? I don’t feel my input on this site has been detrimental to “what you are trying to do ” so why are you throwing me in the lion cage as if I’m a threat? I think I’ve spent far too much time here as is. Best of luck in your future ventures ! God Bless FYI I’m 28 years of age and given what I’ve learned in the biz at a high turbo level, I’d say I have a pretty bright and joyful future ahead of me! I may not know it all but one thing is for damn sure I have learned to leave my past where it belongs! That is a choice, one that you have also😉 Best of luck to you!!

  111. Vogel permalink
    May 2, 2014 9:08 am

    Thankfulandnotbitter said: “I don’t agree with digging into people’s personal lives to prove a point.”

    When Orrin parades people on stage as examples of big money earners who have achieved success using a “system that anyone can duplicate”, but it turn out that the big hitter is a bankrupt impostor, then I’d say the exercise of digging into their personal lives is a worthwhile one. When the sales pitch rests on “just trust me”, then it behooves people to do some research to find out whether that person asking for blind trust is worthy of it. In Orrin’s cartel, they never are.

  112. Minnesota Vikings Fan permalink
    May 2, 2014 1:54 pm

    Amthrax, you are a fraud. The moment somebody (like Chris) expends the time and energy to express an opposing viewpoint and has the audacity to admit they are a thorn in your collective side, you say you are going to moderate his comments. Glass houses, my friend. Isn’t this a criticism I have seen levied against Orrin and other Life leadership blogs – they moderate opposing viewpoints. Yes, Chris has admitted he is being confrontational (or a “troll” as I have seen others call him), but many posters here admit they are being intentionally confrontational toward Orrin and Life. What is the difference? So, it is acceptable to unload and hold not back when commenting about Orrin and Life but the moment somebody unloads on the posters on this blog then you moderate their comments? It seems like somebody has invested the time and energy to upset your little anti-Life paradise and you moderate their comments? That is contrary to what I have seen you say you stand for.

  113. May 2, 2014 7:17 pm

    @Minnesota Vikings Fan – I said that I would moderate Chris’ comments; I never said that I cease publishing his comments. To-date, all of Chris’ comments have been published on the site. He admitted to trolling readers here, showing to all that his efforts to have a civil discourse have not been entirely genuine.

  114. freedomhaha permalink
    May 2, 2014 7:29 pm

    VikingsFan- Do you think you would be able to call Orrin a fraud on one of his many blogs and have him respond?

  115. TruthSeeker permalink
    May 3, 2014 8:20 am

    @Minnesota Viking Fan, great to know you’re still hanging out here and reading this blog, these posts must be stirring an interest I guess.

    Still losing money every month (admit it, you know you are)? The losses are adding up aren’t they, you should bail before you max out your credit cards, have your car repossessed or lost your home.

  116. fastfruit2oo9 permalink
    May 7, 2014 8:59 am

    Guess I would not attack one such as “Pastor A”, “Pastor B”, “Pastor C”, or “Pastor D”…
    Sounds like Chris is not only wise beyond Chris’ years, but also ALL KNOWING about anything and everything with AW/Q*/TOD/Tm/Tm in Hiding/Tm-Mv/Tm (not so Mv)/Tm-Lief/LieF…(few know such superior knowledge)…
    IF I were to make 50% of my down PROFITALBE, I would order the LaLR on Amazon for the $o.o1 price tag, to help these individuals SAVE on Business LOSSes. The $o.o1 price tag would save your great down-LINErs $15.94 per copy as opposed to the Lief price (do not forget about their very convenient shipping)…
    TRUE IF… the information (not just the bucks) was the real goal TO FEED YOUR TEAM…
    The MLM known LOSErs statistic of 97% IS THE PIPELINE!!! Keep a fresh influx of new people paying their estimated $2oo to $5,ooo into the LieF coffers on hugely over priced items, and when they lose interest and move on, get another newbie for another $2oo to $5,ooo. THAT IS ALL IT TAKES.
    “Chris’s” nice math of making a sale, and pocketing 25% is nice for “Chris”, but many people want to actually HELP their families and friends rather than take the excess in costs for their own gain.
    And – ToD… the Destiny will be the smart phone and it’s ability to duplicate all information and share it in an instant (why pay the shipping??)!

  117. Melanie Morgan permalink
    May 7, 2014 12:23 pm

    Suffering from “Group Think!”….. Just sayin; the shoe fits!🙂

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Group_think

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