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A Recap of a LIFE Leadership Opportunity Meeting in Canada

June 24, 2015

Holmes is a first-time commenter who posted his story about going to a LIFE opportunity meeting this past week. He gave me permission to re-post the story in a separate post.

Minor spelling corrections have been made, and paragraph breaks have been added for clarity.

I went to a presentation at Claude Hamilton’s house recently for this LIFE Leadership “business”. I have to say, the person that brought me to the meeting made the business sound full of opportunity and had me intrigued, though it sounded like a pyramid scheme right off the bat. But I was assured it wasn’t and I was interested enough to go to the meeting. Now this Claude guy is definitely rich. The first thing that came to mind is if someone owns a business that is successful why would they want to bring more people into it that would simply be competition to them? Nonetheless I sat there waiting for this presentation in his beautiful home, and I actually felt a little self-conscious because I dressed casual and didn’t wear a business suit as most others had.

What I expected was an overview of the business, with perhaps charts, financial information and statements, how much the business was making, who the business owners were and how they started the business, maybe some future projections of where the company was headed or at least how the hell it worked and what the hell it was that they were selling. Did Claude talk about any of that at all? No most definitely not. Instead I sat through an hour of what I could best describe as some sort of motivational speech with a crap ton of promises and no real substance to how though promises could ever be kept or made, other than of course to pay $230 a month to be a part of it.

The next thing that got me was how you would “own your own business”. For me I suppose that takes a different meaning, because for me unless you are paying yourself and your employees you do not own your business. It is actual quite laughable for them to talk about owning your own business or how your actual job is a pyramid when at least you boss at work isn’t getting loaded rich from your own hard earned money. The other thing that made me chuckle was how Claude said not to quit your job at first, because then how would you pay for subscription fee of course right?

Sadly I left the meeting almost as excited as everyone else, but luckily for me all that excitement quickly faded. I got home and realized how much bullshit he was spewing from his mouth and then I started to get angry and how rich he is and how great he has it preying on other peoples hopes and dreams. See LIFE leadership isn’t even really selling a product whatsoever. They are selling hopes and dreams to people that will never get fulfilled, and it pains me to see so many hardworking people giving their hard earned dollars to these parasites such as Claude and Lana Hamilton, Chris Brady and Orrin Woodward.

I did some minor research later that night, and haven’t really stopped since, and that’s when I came across this website and am some glad I did. All I really had to do though was search Orrin Woodward’s name in Google and my suspicions of the LIFE leadership scam were confirmed. It is almost unfathomable to me that people are actually being fooled with this stuff. But I’m a skeptic by nature that likes to ask a lot of questions, and I tend not to trust people whatsoever until I have good reason to.

I can see how people could trust Claude Hamilton though, he seems like a very good person at first. He is charismatic, cheerful, and I could see how he could easily gain someones trust. But the first question I asked myself when I pulled up to his house was: “how did he become so rich?”, and all you have to do is ask yourself that question and think long and hard. All successful business people have had to step all over other people, stab people in the back and at times at least be dishonest and untruthful to get where they are at. That is unfortunately just how business works.

Like The Frugal Nexus, who concluded that LIFE “is one of the worst business decisions you could ever make,” Holmes saw through the motivational speeches and promises and determined that LIFE is in the business of “selling hopes and dreams to people that will never get fulfilled.” Recall the Forbes article on Orrin Woodward back in 2008 when they were hawking MonaVie juice:

“What I try to give most of all is hope and encouragement,” says Woodward.

Hope is an expensive commodity. Most Team members spend more buying its motivational aids and MonaVie’s juice than they ever take in. Roger Lareau, a Michigan alarm company employee, says his wife has rung up $20,000 in debt buying Team sales tools and Amway products and is now on to selling MonaVie juice. Their marriage has fallen apart as a result. “She still thinks Team is going to set her free one day,” he says.

Our analysis of the LIFE Income Disclosure Statement (IDS) from 2012-2013 showed that the majority of money was made by only a select few. Our upcoming analysis of the 2014-2015 IDS will show that this remains the case — something like 0.5% of the membership make 60% of the available income to the field. Read the fine print in the new IDS, and you’ll learn that 42% of members received no income from the compensation plan in 2014. This is up from 31% in the previous IDS.

Thank you to Holmes for sharing his story, and I hope others will do what he and The Frugal Nexus did. They didn’t take the LIFE presenter’s words at face value. They conducted their own independent research. They analyzed the numbers from the IDS themselves. They asked and sought answers to those nagging questions in the back of their mind regarding the business. And, after deciding what to do (i.e. not participate in LIFE), they took the time to write about their experience so that others can learn from them.

48 Comments leave one →
  1. Matt permalink
    June 24, 2015 10:04 am

    Other than that last part about having to step on others and basically lie to be successful I thought his analysis was spot on.

  2. The Truth Hurts permalink
    June 28, 2015 7:07 am

    Excuse me!!! Business Owners do not have to get ahead by stabbing people in the back. I should know, for I am a Business Owner!

    Now, on to some drivel that made me want to wretch this morning. I see a post on a “guru” website about the reasons why a normal JOB is a pyramid? Come on, are you kidding me? The only way to go along with this type of thinking would be if one is able to suspend all logical thinking process, and drink purple juice. In large quantities, I might add, yep, double shots for sure!

    When you go to work at a JOB, you will be paid for your work, you get a paycheck for the time you put in. This paycheck then goes home with you to pay for things like housing, food, medical, transportation, children’s needs, and more. If you wish to climb through the ranks of the Company where you work your JOB (that you are paid for) you can do so by effort, which will be rewarded with higher pay. But remember, you are paid at what ever level you are at, from day one.

    Unlike some Guru claims, when you go to work for an MLM, you do not get paid. You follow a system that is supposed to teach you how to make money.Hmmm, now here is the interesting part, a particular MLM I am aware of, by it’s own admission, statistically shows a tiny portion of people make money at the very TOP of the heap. Why? Sounds like a triangular shape similar to what is in Egypt to me.

    At the Guru MLM type business, you have to put in a lot of time (and money) that you will never be paid for. The carrot is wiggled in front of you that “you can do it, we have proven success.” Statistics show very few are successful, however.

    At your JOB, you get paid for every hour you put in, and you may even be paid over time for some hours. Would you work for a Company that didn’t pay you for your time? I think not? Can you imagine your Employer telling you to just go out there, do your work, and consider it like a college education, and eventually you will get paid? I don’t think so. In fact, you may apprentice at your JOB and be paid while you do so.

    I remember asking myself the question “why are so many people who were TOP Leaders now gone from the BIz? The answer is clear for all to see, because eventually, after losing money, people in the “pipeline” take a hike. Have you ever wondered why top “Leaders” still build their biz? Because they have to; attrition rates must be astronomical. As people lose money, max out credit cards, etc, they will, and do, give up.

    Did your Employer ever tell you that you weren’t going to receive a paycheck? That you weren’t hungry enough? That if you do enough work, and buy enough of his products, your paycheck will explode with growth? I’d bet not.

    I shake my head in disgust at the talks I remember about how a JOB is just over broke. Master Manipulation at its finest.

    I am so glad I have my JOB. My Family likes food on the table, spending time with our Children, paying bills timely, and making honest friendships, not just because you need to be “in the Biz”.

  3. June 28, 2015 11:02 am

    Bravo to you, The Truth Hurts! The people that chase these ‘gurus’ and their lies are basically ‘chasing the wind’ –and like the Bible says they would rather believe the lies and fork-tongued promises they have been fed instead of the true-faced values of having a real job and actually getting paid for your time and efforts. Your wisdom was refreshing and hopefully someone checking out this sight will gain a greater understanding of why they should not enter this mlm danger zone…called ‘life’…(alias…the land of losing your own soul)

  4. August 11, 2015 2:02 pm

    How do I get my husband out of this cult before it destroys us?

  5. August 11, 2015 8:31 pm

    JT – Tell us a little more about your husband and how he got involved? Has he been with LIFE for a long time or just a short time? Is he keeping track of his income and expenses every month; does he have a stated plan for getting out if the expenses outweigh the income after, say, six months?

  6. August 12, 2015 8:37 am

    Amthrax,

    He has been in less than 6 months. He is keeping track of his expenses, there is no income. He is subscribing to all their crap. I just talked him out of subscribing to the Rascal Radio for $50/ a month. They have him now on something called Track and Save 25/ month… I showed him last night how I just google the businesses that he has in the app, and I get the same discounted coupons. The only thing he is paying for is for them to catalog them all in one place. He can download Retail Me Not for free. Now he has to order some training materials which is about another 80/ month. So far he ( we) have invested about $500 in materials, fees, subscriptions, gas ect… I refuse to go to any meetings with him or let them host them in my house.

    I have been nice about it, I just explain that I have serious trust issues with MLM as my father wasted a ton of money in it growing up and it caused issues with my parents.

    I figure if I fight it, then he will be more drawn to it.

  7. freedomhaha permalink
    August 16, 2015 4:03 pm

    JT- You have come to the right place for help. This site is filled with a lot of really smart people that have helped many others including myself leave the TEAM cult. For me the tipping point was the realization that even the people that I looked up too were going bankrupt. I went from 100% “all-in” to throwing $1000 worth of tools away in two days. It is possible for people to change and leave quickly.

  8. August 17, 2015 11:26 pm

    To JT: I hope this helps give you a little more insight as you should also have a voice of wisdom for your spouse who is involved in ‘Life’. These types of business cults are called ‘closed-market swindles’…as you will see your hard-earned money steadily diminishing from your bank account the deeper involved that he becomes in this. The analysis of the income statement which Life divulged reveals that 99% of people will not only not make any money but will in fact lose money in this ‘endeavor’. This is not good news for your family, and only lines the pockets of the theives who are promising people ‘financial freedom’ if they follow the ‘system’. It is a lie designed to deceive ‘dreamers’ into basically signing their lives over, and then deceiving others to do the same. I pray you will think long and hard about your role in this, and please educate yourself about these types of businesses. A couple of great sights that I have found in fighting for a family member who is involved is Robert Fitzpatricks False profits blog and also David Brears MLM The American Dream Made Nightmare which are extremely helpful in explaining the legal and moral aspects that you as a responsible soul before God and your family need to know. If you have any more questions, please don’t be afraid to post them. We or someone else on this sight are more than willing to help in any way we can. Thank you for being honest and I sincerely hope this helps your marriage stay on the path of what is right and honorable before God. Our hearts feel your pain.

  9. August 18, 2015 10:13 am

    He has a meeting tonight…. My stomach was in knots and I am now on anxiety meds because I don’t want to loose the trust I have for my husband over this. He is such a good man. I know his intentions are pure and for his family. He came from a very hard life and he just wants us to have a good life. They have sold him that this is God’s calling for him. That infuriates me more than anything because they are preying on his love of God. We have five children. We make good money. There is no need to throw any of it away on selling something people can get for free. I have talked to my pastor’s wife about it. She is praying with me for deliverance from this cult. Thank you all so much for the advice, the reading recommendations and for everything. keep us in your prayers.

  10. exTEAMster permalink
    August 18, 2015 12:05 pm

    JT: Sit down with a copy of the income disclosure statement and ask your husband what is his short-term goal in terms of income. For instance, if he says he wants to earn an extra $2,000 per month, then go to the chart and find out what percentage of people are earning $24,000 per year. Hopefully he will see what a small percentage it is. Then remind him that if his expenses are $600 per month for books, CDs, tools, meetings, gas, etc, he’ll need to earn $31,200 per year just to clear the $24,000 he set as a goal. If he still believes he can be among the small percentage of those who can earn that amount, then my advice would be to make him promise that he will be willing to take a closer look at his progress every 3 months and re-examine whether the expenses and income are getting close. He may need to figure it out for himself but to keep the LIFE mentality from convincing him it’s just a matter of time before he’s incredibly wealthy, you need to maintain a precise account of expenses, hours spent at meetings, seminars, conferences, showing plans, etc. to be able to make your case that LIFE is a money losing proposition.

  11. August 18, 2015 1:30 pm

    Thanks! I just tried that. The response I got was ” well what kind of business have you tried to have?”…. I quit after that. I just see that we are going to have to have separate accounts and I am going to make sure all the bills are paid. He has everything from LIFE coming out of a separate account that he has $ direct deposited in. Hopefully he will see how much he’s spending.
    If not, then we may not make it. I have accepted that. financial stability and trust is a big thing for me. If I can’t trust you for that, I can’t trust you period. I could handle an affair better than I can handle taking money from the family and making others rich.

  12. Missouri permalink
    August 18, 2015 8:57 pm

    Oh JT I am so sorry for you. I will pray for you too. I also have created all kinds of reasonable arguments to persuade my family members not to be involved in this cult – a costly endeavor. It’s almost as if they know I am planning to come at them with reason. Because immediately the tears start flowing about how LIFE has saved their marriage, given their family a straight path, etc. How can I say it isn’t good when they are so emotionally invested. Anyone with a brain can see that it isn’t good, except for the people who are so drawn in. LIFE has become their life, and all I can do is sit here and watch. And mourn the loss of my family a I used to know it. And blame myself because somehow I wasn’t enough support for them. They had to go looking for these false friends who are now elevated beyond the importance of family.

  13. exTEAMster permalink
    August 19, 2015 11:52 am

    JT: I’m sure your husband has been given any number of responses to anyone who questions the financial sensibility of the LIFE business. And I’ll guarantee that if your husband isn’t building at the rate he hopes after a few months, he’ll tell himself, “I’m not following the pattern properly. I’m not showing enough plans. I’m not answering a question with a question.” I know because I did the same thing after two years of very disappointing results and almost $10,000 in losses.

    The reality was this: anyone I spoke to about LIFE who already had an interest in personal development said the products were too expensive, the subscription model doesn’t work because people want to search for information specific to their needs, and the number of offerings from real leadership experts besides Orrin Woodward, Chris Brady, et al were too limited. And people who I presented the LIFE business model to said it’s just another MLM (which it is, no matter how hard they will deny it), they had no desire to ever be part of an MLM, did not want to have books and CDs pushed at them month after month, and virtually no one wants to go to “pep rally” meetings every week and seminars on a Saturday.

    So if your husband truly wants to pursue a business opportunity, ask him to take an objective look at others and then compare them with LIFE based on his own opinions, not the opinions he’s been spoon fed. Ask him why such a successful business loses half its customers in its first year (as the LIFE income disclosure statement reports). The fact is LIFE doesn’t have many true customers, it has people buying products who are only doing so because they want the PV points. That’s not the picture of a business with long-term success potential.

    Oh, and one more thing…. tell him that under no circumstances is he allowed to purchase something in someone else’s name. For instance, he won’t be eligible to receive any commissions after 6 months if he doesn’t have a certain amount of customer volume. Many people will sign up a neighbor, family member, etc., as a customer but run the purchase through their own credit card to establish a customer. LIFE doesn’t care if this happens because it keeps the FTC off their backs for running a pyramid scheme. But this is a true signal that there is no real demand for what he is selling.

    Best of luck in your efforts. Please feel free to keep us posted on your efforts so we can try to help.

  14. kilerb permalink
    August 22, 2015 7:28 am

    JT is your husband willing to sit down with you and your pastor to discuss what this is doing to the family unit .You stated that you are on medication for anxiety now because of this.That should be a alarm to him that this is not making a healthy household . Like exTEAMster said he needs to look at the #s they tell a story like the health of a business if his outgo is more than his ROI ( return on investment ) he needs to fold up shop and move on.
    Little side note a real business should have a EIN # so he does not have a business he is working a 2nd shift job for Orrin and his I’ll leave the rest blank.
    Also ask him when was the last time someone was free from their JOB and working life permanently ?Did anyone become financially free from the last major or last monthly meeting or Tuesday night? Now I would hold off on these questions until you can get him in a neutral place like at your pastors office the last thing I want to do is create a fight in your household. He seems like a great guy just trying to provide a better life for his family he is just using the wrong avenue to achieve that goal . Hope this helps and just hang in there

  15. exTEAMster permalink
    August 24, 2015 11:23 am

    JT: One more suggestion…. there’s an earlier post on this website entitled “The Frugal Nexus Concludes LIFE is one of the worst business decisions you can make.” It uses some very basic math to make common-sense arguments about why LIFE is not the avenue to wealth your husband has been convinced it is. I would highly recommend it.

  16. Missouri permalink
    August 30, 2015 7:28 pm

    I have recently been told by two different people in the LIFE Leadership business that the financial education product offered by LIFE is certified for continuing education credits for accountants, and that this is a big selling point. Does anyone know anything about this? Here is what I could find:

    CPAs can even earn 22 self-study CPE credits from CPEThink.com/ffcpe by completing the material in the Financial Fitness Program and passing an online exam. CPEthink.com is an IRS Approved Continuing Education Provider registered with the NASBA as a QAS Sponsor of Continuing Professional Education, and the CPE credit hours satisfy or exceed the updated AICPA/NASBA guidelines on self-study CPE activated in 2014 for all 50 states and US territories.

    I have not found any other LIFE materials to be original or worth the time and expense. This is a different take. We went through the Dave Ramsey course offered as part of a stewardship study through our church. Now our acquaintances in LIFE said we should try this instead. Does anyone have experience with this?

  17. luvyours permalink
    August 31, 2015 4:40 pm

    @JT: I feel your pain through and through my friend. I am in the exact same boat with my husband and I have just about had it with him. I have tried being patient with him and rationalize how much time he will be spending away from the family and how much money he will end up loosing. He doesn’t see it. He used to listen to the Cd’s in the car and I told him he will no longer continue to listen to that garbage in the car while we are with him. If he wants to do this on his own while he is alone, he may do so. The other day during another one of our heated arguments in regards to this, he told me that this is what God has called him to do. Un-frickin-believable!!! those scumbags are now using religion to rope people in. I told him actually NO, that is not what God calls us to do. God calls us to be good fathers and husbands first and foremost. God does not call us to be perpetual fools over and over again at the expense of our families. I like how another poster used the income disclosure statement to spin the numbers. I would like to use this to show my husband yet again, that he is going down a one way street. The thing that really hurts me the most is that when I was pregnant, he was always gone to the meetings, meeting strange people he called friends, spending time away from his wife who really needed him there at the time. I resented him so much because of this and it really drove a wedge between us, but yet he decided that the life leadership “business” was so important. Here we are again and it is the same argument. “I am doing this for my family. This is best for my family.” How can someone be so blind and not critically think and analyze every facet and see that this is indeed NOT a good thing for the family??????? How can you go out in public and try to teach others about being happy and living a fun, happy life when your life at home is about to crumble??? The lying and hiding things is more than I can take. If his email wasn’t up, I wouldn’t have ever found out that he had started back into the “business” again. He said his intent was to tell me eventually, but I know he would not have. I got extremely pissed at him and demanded he get his money back and cancel immediately. To my knowledge he says he did, but I am not sure if there is another secret email where he does his transactions. I am at my wits end and have given him several ultimatums. I am not going to sit back and let him continue to waste time, squander finances and sell people scams. It is such an embarrassing thing to witness whenever he starts talking to people about this scam. At times I am ashamed to even go out with him. we Cannot even have a conversation without him bringing up some useless information regarding the life Cd’s he is listening to. The irony of this is that, one of the CD’s talks about marriage…..Im not sure how they can put any information out on happy marriage when the very thing they are selling is causing a lot of marriages, families and friendships to crumble. I need advice on how to deal with this matter this time around. I feel as if I am just losing. I am just about at the end of my rope with him and his illogical thought processes. Any information would be very helpful and greatly appreciated.

  18. Melanie Morgan permalink
    September 1, 2015 12:07 am

    JT & luvyours,

    I sincerely feel for you both. The anguish and frustration you are both feeling, tragically is an all too common testament, it truly is heartbreaking.. It is all too consistent with this supposed “life-changing” “god ordained” “living the life you always wanted”… BUSINESS. What “business” does this? So many falsities. They claim it, “betters oneself, marriages, families finances, and faith” etc. That just isn’t the reality.

    I bet they would have an impossible task trying to convince you and me🙂 and many others of this. Sadly, these strained relationships and near divorce stories , division, denial, financial irresponsibility..and the “negative” transforming of the mind happens to everyone. the struggle is real. You do lose you “critical thinking”…because… “those who control the information, control the money and the MNDS of others” makes the “owners” rich, it’s very lucrative, too bad it is a lie for the masses.

    The “guru’s get lifted beyond a god-status..all intentional, it is what “works”,how else would they get spouses to turn on each other, it is an absolute necessity to keeping others listening and “trusting” them, along with the “controlling the information” of those..it is required, for “success” as they falsely convince others.

    You mention, lies and hiding that your husband is resorting to. that is a far cry from “bettering” anything, especially the most important…your family and marriage. Lies and hiding would be the quickest way to breach the trust in a marriage, and without trust, what is there? Even they know this. I am not saying there is no hope for your marriage, and if there is enough love, it will work.

    Those on here and many thousands if not millions, have felt and have experienced your pain in one way or another, due to this “business” We were involved for 13 plus years and will tell you it “wasn’t worth it” and are happier that we being gone. We either witnessed or experienced more losses, than financial, the money never mattered to me. My husband nor I would ever “associate” with them again. I also know the division it creates. I saw all the families financially losing and blinded to the reality, living on false hope and to never achieve even a profit… it is the same over and over and over. I know all too well what they claim… but I will say from experience, it ISN’T a “business for profit” (just the very few handful @ the top). it isn’t the “work of God”, it isn’t a financial way to freedom, it is far from “freedom” that would be an oxymoron. It IS though by DESIGN, not Effort or knowledge a way for people lose to become delusional, and broke. There has been ** no one** as far as I can tell, “move on” to LIFE coach , since the inception, that built legitimately. They all came from Amway with existing or manipulated line of sponsorships.

    I wish we all could help more. Just know that you are not alone and stick to the “tough love”… don’t give in, that is what they are counting on. I wish I could promise you an easy fix, but if I could suggest anything, it would be get counseling for yourself (however you see that works for you). I would read everything I could on cults, MLM (multilevel marketing) and most importantly surround yourself with someone of a strong support system, it is the best thing you can do.

    Seek, you will find.

    JT and luvyours, I believe if you both could hook up on the phone or in person and if you are comfortable with this: (maybe send Amthrax your information to make that happen), I believe it could be invaluable to you both.. It is this very site and some very close people to me that were the ones that made all the difference in the world. Make sure your husbands understand and read the “contract”, they I would bet “BELIEVE” they “OWN” their business, but unless they changed it, you own nothing. I don’t have time to tell you our story but read this, they can “take” and WILL take your business for what-ever bogus reason they come up with.

    Good luck, I wish both the best, and especially hope you both can tell us in the near future, your marriages are restored and stronger than ever!❤

  19. Melanie Morgan permalink
    September 1, 2015 1:58 am

    One other last thing I would like to leave you with, would be: read what is going on with the MLM “industry” as a whole. You can (see Amthrax great site on Vemma and many other sources, read up on FHTM, Herbalife, and the latest from Monavie and so many others. I think you will find it promising.

    You could print off some articles that might interest your spouses from the FTC and even FBI website on pyramid schemes, Then ask how he is being taught and practicing running his or rather, Orrin’s business LIFE. You can also see which MLM’s have and are being shut down, and more importantly, WHY. Your husbands might find it interesting to say the least.

    Those of us who have been around a while, should I say… cant help but see some serious trouble ‘in paradise’ coming for the MLM “industry as a whole. Pretty sure even those in the “industry” must be shanking. I guess you can’t stop something who’s time has come. Some things have a way of taking care of itself, so to speak.

    ll the people “who really cared” have donated much time and effort and money, from Bill Ackman, professionals who have studied MLM’s for years and teach at university, to those who have been behind the scenes, and everyone else, including Amthrax, have and are making a real difference. Thanks for all your efforts. Good to see you are still here.🙂

  20. Melanie Morgan permalink
    September 1, 2015 2:01 am

    ** that would be “shaking” not shanking…:)

  21. Kilerb permalink
    September 1, 2015 5:40 am

    Missouri stay with FPU from Ramsey now I may be being bias here since I took and now teach FPU and have not seen in person the team financial pack . With that being said you stated that you went through FPU correct ? Now if you do a zero balanced budget would team life fit into your budget ? If you are already on a budget and using your money by Gods design why would you waste your money on team life’s pack ? You would not need another budget balancing system . Also Ramsey has been around a lot longer and he uses a lot of Larry Burkett’s teachings from crown financial service .When I heard team came out with a finacical system I laughed based on if your not a idiot and you use you money to work for you you would uncover team as a waste of your money and you would put that cash to something else besides their scam . Also I’m going out on a ledge here I could not imagine that team would not somehow someway put into your budget their system . Why would they teach you to handle your finances and have no opportunity to keep sucking money out of your pocket . Think about it .

  22. Kilerb permalink
    September 1, 2015 5:51 am

    Also your 1st 2 paragraphs are a huge statement from them. I hope they can back that up that sounds to good to be true . So for $59.95 you receive 22 credits what colleges can this be transfered to? No offense this sounds like if Billy Maze was still alive he would be selling it on a infomercial next to oxiclean.

  23. Melanie Morgan permalink
    September 1, 2015 1:35 pm

    Kilerb~

    Great points.

    What separates them from following the same laws, licenses, degree’s etc. from a real “financial advisors?” For the readers, maybe someone can answer this?

    The advice financial or otherwise, I personally experienced, was hardly sound business, financial or otherwise. I wouldn’t take it for free. Others can find out for themselves, but it doesn’t matter how good or even bad their “advise” is… to me, the most important is trust, their character, integrity, honesty, and friendship and that I found completely void. Zero respect for people that do what they have done.

    They have always plagiarized everything, doubt this is any different, wouldn’t be surprised if they plagiarized Ramey’s, then claim it as their own, just stand operating procedure, from my experience. Are they qualified ministers? I wonder if they take seriously, the standard and consequences of “preaching” to thousands for years, ( I know you can pay $ 10 or $20 bucks, answer a few questions, get a certificate on line and wala you are a minister.. scary really.) I do not know if anyone of them has done this and Perhaps they have become preachers, some way, I don’t know and don’t care..

    I don’t wonder why.. but those being “recruited”, promised…etc. Would be wise to ask a lot of questions. and refuse to accept, they will “get with their upline” or “that will be answered at the NEXT open, major, seminar, house meeting etc… they didn’t teach anything of value or in detail specifically about the TEAM business, like profit vs loss and who would advise anyone to go in debt year, after year after year, with no return, which is where most find themselves. If it isn’t working or you haven’t seen a consistent “profit” after a year, then think again and shut out the garbage.

    How long does a person have to go in debt ? How long does it take someone who owns a lawn mowing business to make a profit? How long does a real business take to turn a profit? they say they aren’t like any other business, UNTIL they need it to sound like any other business, tricky little tactics..I can tell you it wouldn’t take thousands of people like what was in our business, and even then it wasn’t the “LIFESTYLE” or profit business, they want you to believe.

    Why, if they are so transparent, honest, like they desperately need you to believe… would they not tell you How many actually are making money from the profit sharing, or better yet what is the FORMULA that they “figure” your pay on?!! anyone EVER go to work, (even though this is YOUR business, NOT a job) not knowing how much you will get paid or even in a business would not know the profit margins, etc. Just “trusting” them to ‘decide’ how much they will pay you and never telling you these facts? Our experience the entire duration, never did they tell us this!

    I also never heard them “train” you on controlling your spending.or “budgeting” on their system, after all it is a repeat of every seminar, major, etc,..that if people haven’t noticed they charge you AGAIN on their “auto-ship” program of cd’s. Why not offer this in their ‘ticket’ price for those who spent anywhere from 500-1000 in Expenses to attend/ Again self-serving…What about other critical components of running “your own LIFE or TEAM business”?

    Why not “training” everyone, on “income claims”, promises they make etc. based on the laws of the industry, or (on their overhead) at majors? Like the information that is in the FTC guidelines on MLM even how about the warnings from the FBI, that they know are majorly violated in the industry and could potentially shut companies down? Important?

    Shouldn’t you know what ‘business you are in? Why did they NEVER mention the FTC, when I was in? Why not train with their LIFE business pay plan etc..and not circular, generic and intentional vagueness and rather than focusing on “handling those objections”. Why do they need a ‘stop thinking’ handling objections to any questions? Isn’t honesty and transparency what they claim? .And what about the training on the most important specifics of their ‘contract’ you must sign,?!

    In their contract they require you to sign, can they control your speech? What if you find them to do any wrong doing, are you allowed to sue or have your own an attorney handle this? Are you controlled with what websites you can go to? How does this hold up to the empty rhetoric… “IT IS AN EQUAL PLAYING FIELD FOR ALL?’ How is it equal and fair practices? What about has anyone ever been given others teams, how does that work? Is this fair, “equal for everyone” and who is the all controlling entity that decides…you loose your business and we gain it?

    What about them having complete control over whether you get paid…or NOT, Do they have a “voting” process to be determined by them, that you may or may not “earn on your performance”?! Is this fair or can any tell me if that is legal? Their contract, Reminds me of what Orrin likes to quote the Judge on Quixtar/Amway’s contract. You could look it up. Are they transparent and do they have 2 separate “profit sharing” all people are equal in?

    i rarely “questioned” (out loud) although I did and learned real quick, how that worked, when you questioned, while I was in, and probably why Orrin didn’t like me HA! WHY NOT? Why would they not “train” people on these Majors in your business, since they are a “training company” that claims you can become a “millionaire” by following what they ‘teach’, just do what they did?. Red Flag # gazillion.🙂

    It was a Self-serving and self-enriching advice and training system and clearly . A person could learn more from someone with a lawn mowing business about business, than what I heard.

    With ALL their guru status they self proclaim, their “life changing training”..in reflection, their “advise” financials, or other, was generic, intentionally, you would think they taught the TEAM business details, right? NOPE just sales techniques, used to rope others in, handling objections )to avoid the critical and legit questions) like how the pay plan really worked? if Orrin could…let’s say…take your business, manipulate the pay plan at will etc…then why not inform and “train” others with the truth? Many questions, that I wish I would have gotten before I ever got started. Hope you take these and get them answered. Good luck with that.

  24. luvyours permalink
    September 1, 2015 3:25 pm

    Hi Melanie,
    Thank you so much for your advice and kind words of compassion. I have been listening to some of the podcasts by Robert Fitzpatrick and they are very VERY informational and eye opening. I also stumbled upon the Mary-Kay blog similar to this and some of the stories shared by the husbands are beyond sad. I especially appreciate your candor and honesty in relation to the “business.” If I tell my husband your story his excuse is “well they didn’t work the business hard enough, or they didn’t follow the plan as they should have.” If I am not mistaken, you and your husband were in the business for over 13 years, correct? So then how hard do you actually have to work to ever see a return? At what point do we stop and realize this isn’t working or ever going to work??? These are the questions I pose to my husband and he still has no answer that is worth me wasting my time listening to. I am not sure that I can get through to him for he has been involved in the industry since he was 17 years old. He started out in Amway and he has been a believer ever since. I have watched him throw thousands upon thousands away from these scams. I have also seen each one of them he was involved in crash and burn from either being shut down by the FTC or he decides that they are no longer his passion or calling. Ripplin, Burn Lounge, Visalus, Brain Abundance, Zeek Rewards, Izigg just to name a few. He is so deeply ingrained in this industry that I don’t know if he can ever wake up. Like I posted earlier, it definitely puts a strain on our marriage, so much so that I have days where I think about throwing in the towel and saying forget it. I do not think I can help him, but I will try. My dad was also involved in this industry and it did cause problems between him and my mom. My dad is a very smart man and he soon realized that nothing would ever be worth it enough to sacrifice his family. My husband does not think in those terms ever. He feels that if I leave then I have made my choice. The entire subject matter enrages me through and through. It angers me that he can spend so little time working on building a stronger marriage and family unit, but he can devote hours listening to the jargon and nonsensical information being fed to him. I have a big problem with people who use the Lord’s name in vain in an effort to further their own agenda. These types of people disgust me. I am to the point where I don’t really want to be in the same room with him anymore. Deep down I just feel so sorry for him. I am sad for him because he will forever be in a cloud of constant confusion. I am sad that I may just have to witness my marriage disintegrate and there may be possibly nothing I can do about it. Mostly I am sad for my kids because they probably will not have a father who will be fully vested in their lives due to something that is so superficial and yet so insidious.

  25. Missouri permalink
    September 1, 2015 7:22 pm

    Luvyours and JT, I’m so sad for you. This is the same thing going on in my family. My family members leave their children for meetings and weekends with “friends” and have no idea how much precious time they are losing – all for a dream that will never come to fruition. They won’t listen to reason. In fact, that’s why I posted what I did about the Financial Fitness Pack. The bit about the CEUs is their way of legitimizing the product they are selling, because they know I don’t believe what they are doing is wise or legitimate. They know how I feel, and they have an answer for everything. I know this is going to end very badly. All I can do now is pray for them. Melanie, I know the stuff is all plagiarized, or at the very least, regurgitated with a passing credit to the original creator. Think about all that time and energy going into an original business that you actually own, and spend the rest of the time at the library where the resources are free. What a waste!

  26. LionChaser permalink
    September 2, 2015 7:50 pm

    Luvyours & JT, let me tell you when we were in this bull-shizness, I had a cd where Orrin Woodward himself gave credit to John and Melanie Morgan for the creation of a process called “team approach” that might have been single-handedly responsible for any real growth in his business. Here we are some 10+ years later and your husband will never hear their names brought up at a seminar. Should you direct him (and he takes you up on it) to ask his upline about them they will probably never have heard of them. Why? Because their whole team was taken and put under someone else – like a lot people’s on this site. And everyone that knew about it either left and was replaced or they are guilty of playing a part in it and they keep hoping Melanie and people like her will just go away.

    Don’t underestimate the level of skill these people have honed at manipulating people. I don’t know your husband but I can guess that he probably genuinely believes that he’s doing what is right for your family’s future. I always did. For years I was utterly broken hearted that the people I loved so much were so critical of this “thing” without giving it a chance. I’ve been out for several years now and it still stings when they make a joke or a jab about it, because I truly wanted to bless them all with it. I drew pictures of the house I would buy my parents in their old age so they wouldn’t have to go to a nursing home, I made lists of the gifts I would provide for my siblings, I planned mission trips to places and clipped pictures of those regions to hang on my wall to pray for them in hopes I could be the feet and hands of Jesus to them one day through this. These guys don’t “use God” as a last desperate attempt to keep someone in. They START with that to draw unsuspecting good-willed people into it. They literally teach sermons at their majors and bring along pastors they have bamboozled and lift them up as spiritual leaders for the masses. People genuinely get saved at some of them and then have to work through the mind job of how it could be that the very people that led them to Christ also stole their money and time from their families.
    Keep praying. It’s your best hope. And don’t LET this attack be the end of your marriage. You know him best and in the end he’s going to need your forgiveness and understanding, and you’re gong to need to trust that only God can restore whatever is lost.
    If you’re anything like the rest of us, you WILL discover a couple of good friends for life. Keep in mind that the whole system is geared to attract good, honest, hardworking people. So MANY of the people at the bottom with your spouses and their immediate upline probably fit that description. Pray for all of them.

  27. luvyours permalink
    September 3, 2015 7:23 am

    @LionChaser
    It is reading testimonies such as yours that give hope, but other days I feel powerless. The thing is that I have told him that he does not have to do this, he does not have to stoop to this level in order to do right by us. I also mentioned to him that I have a real problem with people like Orrin who lack a moral compass and use their charisma, charm and words to lure people into what I consider to be extremely dangerous. I told my husband that he was part of a cult and that he too is misleading and deceiving others. I showed him in the Bible that what he was doing goes against God’s word. I emailed him an article of a pastor detailing how MLMs and the will of God will NEVER co-exist under the same roof and how the two just do not go together. EVER. He just laughed under his breath as he read it. I asked him what his thoughts were. Nothing. Just nothing. I will continue to pray for my husband and myself. I will need a lot of patience as I do not have tolerance for these “businesses” in any form or fashion. Any discussion about the subject matter often lead to very very heated arguments which result in our household being turned upside down, often upsetting our kids. This blog is the only place where I feel understood and heard. In order to enjoy a night out with him, I often have to numb myself and let my mind drift off to much happier times. I want to live in the moment and be present whenever I am out with him, but it is a very hard thing to do. I have had to resort to this in order to ward off the urge to respond to the psycho babble related to the “business.” He also says if the marriage were to end then it is my fault and my choice for refusing to change and accept the teachings and lifestyle. It’s statements like these that cause me to lose patience with him and go into a full on rage. I care for him and want to see him become a leader in his OWN household because this is where it truly matters to us. I know that he wants to take care of his family and provide but the way he is going about it is just wrong. The fact that they use God to lure people in, bring pastors to preach at these seminars as well as invite people to give their lives to the Lord just throws me further into despair, because how can I win against this when they resort to this? However, I did let him know that under no circumstance was he to get on a plane and attend one of these seminars, the same goes for local seminars as well. I guess my questions for you are: How did you get out? When did you know it was time for you to leave? Overall what did the business end up costing you? And would you be willing to email my husband and share your story with him? I love him and care for him deeply and I am willing to do whatever it takes to rid him of his addiction. Thanks so much for sharing your story, I know it is not an easy thing to do.

  28. Kilerb permalink
    September 3, 2015 2:48 pm

    Luvyours
    I’ll give you a quick run down on what this cost my family Lost valuable time with my children lots of miles and I mean lots of miles easy 15 to 20k thrown out the window. End result chapter 7 bankruptcy lost house vehicles and close to being homless not just me wife and children and pets 🐶. Asked wife for divorce thank goodness someone crossline steped in to help salvage our marriage .They in return were excomunicated well our diamonds one kid said to them you don’t know how much money you cost us by asking questions their out to btw .Up line and crossline said we miss handled our finances .I lost track of how many couples are separated after team and almost everyone that was in when we were in are gone . I was out when I got slapped up along the side of my head with a brick when lost 1 car lost house then low and behold tow truck yanks my truck out of my employers parking lot and my so called I love you friends left me high and dry and a fellow employe ask hey how’s that business going and where was my so called friends in team no were to be found .I hope there’s a brick to wake up your husband

  29. LionChaser permalink
    September 3, 2015 6:14 pm

    Luvyours, I don’t know if it will help, but my story is posted in the ex-team members page
    Of this site under the name MemoryLame. I’m not sure how my handle switched to be honest.

    Do you know the name of your husband’s upline by chance?

  30. exTEAMster permalink
    September 3, 2015 8:23 pm

    Luvyours: My heart goes out to you because I know how hard it is to break through the wall that surrounds the logic of a loved one who refuses to see the financial ruin that LIFE can easily lead you to. At the same time, I am sure you want your husband to come to his own conclusion about LIFE as opposed to him believing your negative attitude is the only reason he can’t/won’t be successful.

    So give him the chance to explain in detail why he believes so much in the LIFE business opportunity. Ask him why this is so different than any others he has seen.

    Go over the income disclosure statement (it’s printed within the brochure on the LIFE compensation plan). Explain why the high dropout rate, troubling annual earnings and miniscule percentage of people who are the top earners are a concern to you. Ask him to outline why he believes he can succeed where tens of thousands of others before him have not (not only in LIFE but also the other MLM ventures he has attempted).

    I don’t mind saying that there are some books and CDs with some useful information. Even if you have no intention of building a business, there’s probably something out there that you’ll find interesting or helpful for some facet of your life.

    But buying a book or CD as a customer is one thing. Buying hundreds of dollars worth every month as a business builder is completely different. For one, most people will easily be able to find similar (if not better) information for less money online. In addition, does your husband truly want to commit the time it takes to read and listen to everything LIFE wants him to every month? Does he really want to leave the house multiple nights a week for meetings, seminars, appointments to show “the plan” to prospects who never show up? What effect will the time and stress of having a regular job and trying to build a LIFE business have on his own health, let alone the well-being of your family and relationship?

    Let’s say he really has no problem with the time commitment. How many people does he know who want to clear that same amount of time in their schedules (or who haven’t already told him to never approach him with another MLM opportunity)? Again, this is one of the big problems with the LIFE business plan. Between the time commitments of reading, listening, showing the plan to prospects AND the weekly meetings, monthly seminars and quarterly conferences, it becomes more work than your regular job. Plus, you will undoubtedly run into many couples like yourself…. one partner gets intrigued by the LIFE opportunity, but the other will have no interest whatsoever (I believe the time and financial commitments required by LIFE are one of the big reasons there is so much conflict among couples who join the business).

    There is a VERY STRONG community appeal to the LIFE business and that community makes them believe that nobody outside of LIFE has any valid reasons for not wanting to join them. It’s a very strong force to overcome and you might not be able to do it alone, but there are plenty of people who have had far worse experiences than I have had who can help you in this battle along the way.

  31. Melanie Morgan permalink
    September 7, 2015 11:36 am

    luvyours~

    Oh man, I feel yours and others pain, the more you share the more heart breaking your story is. I have not forgotten about you, nor am I ignoring your questions. I have to agree your husband is deeply “entrenched”, so sad, so young to trap his mind on this.

    It is clear to me by his willingness to throw your marriage away and blame you, you will find that behavior in all cults and every MLM. Imagine the torment going on inside his mind.
    Nothing is more important than the “business”, not his wife, kids, family, Pastor, nothing.

    It is twisted and sick.

    If you are interested read, “Combatting Mind Control” by Steve Hassan. I believe it will help with your husband.

    With all do respect to your serious and painful circumstances, I in no way intend to hurt you.. with my comments, with that said, I could not help but laugh out loud when reading your list of illegal pyramid schemes your husband joined.

    Your husband can sure pick the ones that get shut down,:) Thus, if his track record of unconscious competence ha, judging by the ones he picks, could prove to be an “positive”
    indication of his joining TEAM/LIFE,🙂

    To verify you on the 13 plus years, yes, that is correct. Shamefully, We slept, ate, breathed, and ‘followed’, including buying more money than I care to count on the “system” and expenses…hundreds of thousands I have no doubts. I would like to forget the wasted time, effort and money.

    We ‘followed’ the “training” to a tee, building (working senselessly) our business 5,6,7 days a week, for all those years, losing out so much TIME..
    thee greatest most precious, and valuable times with our children. real families and friends and each other, that we will never get back.

    We were beyond ‘loyal’ and spent a lot of time with the Woodward’s
    and the Guzzardos, you don’t get any “higher” up than that.

    . If anyone of them deny we did the work, they are flat out liars. But then they are liars and everyone including them know this.

    We never missed ANYTHING (with one exception when my father-in law passed away). We started, and PAID our of own pockets, to start open meetings and seminars, in every state we lived in. We even had to pay the difference to the speakers if there was a loss! We reached triple 100, Founders Sapphire in Quixtar and Ruby in Monavie, were repeat powerplayers. Top Gun winners blah, blah, blah. And Orrin promoted my husband as in the TOP 5 builders in the Team, so your husbands excuses won’t work.

    You refer to your husband as having this “addiction”, the “system” or constant propaganda locks a persons’ mind up, unfortunately your husband is an example of this.

    They eventually get you to believe all the lies, and you will do and give up anything to believe in the fraud, and “buy into” their false hope.

    And using God to START as Lion Chaser truthfully states, in their excellent post. It’s the bait
    that breaks the down the walls of trust, lends them the air of honesty and unquestioning. But you can count on that eventually all their ill gotten gains cannot buy out the consequences of what they will face.

    All this is components that trap people like your husband and all of us on here, along with the millions of others. It is imo, the largest most damaging perpetrated fraud, along with some real sick and evil cults on this planet. Power and greed are what they feed on.

    They tout it is a “proven system” , they want you to believe it’s “proven” to make you a successful Millionaire, but from their own IDS, LESS than 1% ever make a profit. So, it is proven for 99% plus to FAIL.

    What is also “proven” anyone not in, clearly see’s this: their training and one can never take the strategic propaganda, lightly, it is the “proven” control EVERY area of a person’s life, i

    We got started in November of 1995 (in Amway) and they took our teams as Lion Chaser shared, and took our “residual income”, in 2009 for if you listen to them: they have
    many lies they cleverly ‘dreamt ‘ up about us and all the others who they know have the truth.including having “secret meetings” behind our backs with our leaders to spread their disease and destruction, fraud and satisfy those in the moment. Along with ALL of the “industries” standard lies of course.

    They desperately ‘ tried’ to make us the “enemy” but most of our leaders we were really tight, including many cross line that respected John.

    All those people, including the TOP,know better because we spent over a decade helping our own teams but also the “whole team”. It was a long painful process to find the truth, but it was eventually undeniable.

    Truth always comes out and their true evil nature couldn’t be denied any longer.

    All those “friends” and more top builders had very similar experiences. But all, of them found out who they really are. Other real leaders had similar wake up calls and will never have anything to do with again. There is a list on this site somewhere of numerous TOP leaders, who left.

    One builder who was in our team, should be a wake up call to those who think they can “trust” anyone in LIFE, especially the TOP, should take notice to is :Mark and Raquel Peters and Amthrax (who are both being sued). Get informed, how they play. Evil.

    The Peters, are being sued by their old upline for what, supposed defamation about Eric B,
    or rather sharing their experience, opinions and truth, on this site.

    Eric Blomdahl claims to being “mentored” by Orrin, Guzzardo and no doubt listening to the now
    CEO Chris Brady, that hypocritically bashed JOBS.

    They are using the TEAM?LIFE/Orrin attorney, you decide who you think is behind the lawsuits. Imo, Eric is easily a target to ‘use’ for just this task.

    Your husband and anyone else who believes these guys are who they tout to be,
    should take notice. The Peters were Sapphires, Turbo 100, repeat Power player and 1 case from Ruby in Monavie, who also spent 5, 6, 7 days a wk “building/working their business”. What levels has he achieved?

    The industry “leaders” (they are not real leaders) Shady evil tactics, you can find numerous lawsuits, and some with some serious accusations, that of course get settled, and sealed from the public, amazing! Just a thought, the law should NOT allow this when it effects consumers!

    It is the “norm”, they are turning on each other, as once so succinctly put, they are will become like a snake eating it’s own tail. Good for the MLM attorneys though, keeps them in business, along with all the FTC doing their job and rocking the industry to the core. I hope they are reading ALL of this site, they I have no doubt can discern the truth.🙂 I invite them to call me!

    Truth will always prevail, and it is getting near impossible for them to hide their lies, and false promises from the masses, thanks to multiple good people.

    They resort to stooping lower than a snakes belly to try and deceive others. I see it for what it is now, and the root cause it their power hungry and overtaken by greed.
    American Greed, you can learn a lot about the thought processes of sheer greed that
    becomes and obsessive addiction.

    Our uplines George and Jill Guzzardo , supposed friends (ALL of them revealed themselves, eventually) along with the other “crossline” PC ‘decision’ makers; who clearly was willing to destroy anyone and everyone’s business as long as they kept their own money. You can see how that is paying off for them.

    They chose to decimate our teams, at the time they were desperately trying to ‘hid in the lawsuit’ and hang onto the 8000 people or what they only saw was the $$$$$$, that was feeding them from our organization at the time. But then they do claim to be “dreamers”.

    Btw, you may already know this but Orrin and some of his top few yes-men (Tim Marks was fined for trying to hide evidence, imagine that Christian practice) they were all in a lawsuits
    which they lost against Amway/Q. This was AFTER a decade or so of Orrin raking in his ill gotten gains. He himself claimed Amway/Quixtar, was “a pyramid scheme with hopelessly overpriced products” making multi- millions off Amway/Quixtar and his “system” = 100% recruiting scheme, and promoting Amway/Quixtar as the “best business bar none”… then somehow, perhaps greed, just an educated guess, he was able to completely ignore that his “sales training company”, was no different and those paid in the “profit sharing” funny or not how he never mentioned it as such.

    Structurally, it was the exact same as the LOS in Quixtar. Along with the structure of how you were paid; all based on the recruitment of others “numbers buying the system” in
    your team, with the exception that the “system” paid out at least 2 times more. Fraud?

    I am not aware of one, but IF there were any, it would have been such a minuscule number you wouldn’t even see it, but NONE that I am aware of among thousands in our group… had no sales outside of our down line but all on RECRUITED people, who “bought from themselves” and got paid to do just that, who did not sell one tape, cd, book or product, to any outside (sales), unless of course I heard some would apparently had to add a system count to include their dogs, cats, kids, great grandma’s and pa’s. In other words if one is a pyramid scheme then common sense is you can conclude, so is the other! Or perhaps they counted the “gifts” given to their family members they paid for.

    I will try and find some more time to come back to answer and share some more with you. I hope it will help you. There are some beautiful people on here sharing their hearts to support you, I so appreciate them for taking the time but most I appreciate their genuine concern, and willingnesss to share their stories, knowledge, and experience, just says a lot about their hearts.. Thanks to you all. Missouri, Lion Chaser, eXteamster, kilerb, Amthrax, and all the rest!!!!

    Some encouragement

    : “As for me, I would seek God, and to God would I commit my cause, who does great things and unsearchable, marvelous things without number: he gives rain on the earth and sends waters on the fields; he sets on high those who are lowly, and those who mourn are lifted to safety. He frustrates the devices of the crafty, so that their hands achieve no success.”…

    Justice, will prevail.🙂

    Hope ya’ll are enjoying your labor day weekend, keep your chin up!

  32. Melanie Morgan permalink
    September 7, 2015 11:59 am

    Just to clarify so there is no misunderstanding, Mark and Raquel Peters and Eric Blomdahl were in our teams but Amthrax, was not. Amthrax however is also being sued by them, this is public knowledge you can search and find it.

  33. Melanie Morgan permalink
    September 9, 2015 10:35 am

    luvyours~

    Here is just 2 links. Search

    https://amthrax.wordpress.com/2014/07/01/lawsuits-against-critics/

    http://www.lazymanandmoney.com/worldventures-mlm-lawsuits/

    One link I found of information from “MLM Law” here:http://www.mlmlaw.com/saleswatch/swdownline.html. Explains; The “Clayton Act” on anti-trust law. Needless to say, that is more than interesting.😉

    There is no way I could take the time to link to EVERY MLM lawsuit, in a few minutes but definitely search out those on the ones coming from the ” inside” the industry, evening more telling of the alleged criminal and evil nature, but seek, research and please inform yourselves, (everyone) and for you luvyours, it could prove a turn around for your marriage and crack in your husbands locked up mind!🙂

    I am so glad you are doing your own due diligence and seeking information from, the Experts also, as you know Robert Fitzpatrick. His most recent thought provoking article on titled: ‘Unfair And Deceptive’: The FTC’s Prosecution Policy On Multi-Level Marketing.

    *** http://mlmtheamericandreammadenightmare.blogspot.com/2015/09/robert-fitzpatrick-on-vemma-mlm-and-ftc.html *** A MUST READ

    I also would like to clarify on the 99 % plus who never make a profit in LIFE, I took that from a comment on lazy man and money site, but also know from our own group (that wasn’t LIFE but is the same ole deceptive business with a different name, including changing the language of their ranks, and even changing the names of their “meetings” PBO what a joke etc ) and way the fail to make a profit ,at the time would prove to be pretty damn accurate in our business based on my knowledge..

    But rather don’t take my word, based on my experience and knowledge of our own group, just read the comp plan analysis from MIKE COLLINS on the undeniable facts, remember numbers don’t LIE: and ironically Orrin likes to state “figures don’t lie, but liars sure can figure”….Unbelievable! does the guy even hear himself?

    So, Whatever that percentage in the analysis or my group, or the guy who stated that on lazy man, we can ALL see that the “facts” are there, and it doesn’t matter if it is “95-99% plus (industry wide) it is a fraud, and 100% recruitment with slim to zero “out side sales” (constitutes an illegal pyramid,) contrary to the “handling objections they taught and we feel for because you don’t do research like that you trust them, can you say stupid! But gotta love their now put right in the “showing the plan” they addresses this based by showing they “build depth straight down” bahahahaha, or their ‘arguments’ usually are akin to Orrin is the ‘smartest guru on the planet’ and he says it NOT one so therefore and his hired cronies repeat it, so therefore it isn’t a pyramid scheme, it is hysterical. ( but wait he did say Amway was a pyramid scheme! or was it Corporations LOL)..but my gosh and people are falling for it! It is ,damaging and destructive based on my experience!

    “business opportunity” in the sheer sense of “business” it is shameful and deceptive. I don’t care what they say, it’s immoral, unethical and THEE worst “business opp” in the world.

    You can find right here on Amthrax site the analysis. Compliments of Mike and Amthrax. Also I gave you a lik to “lazy man and money” blog is another excellent source to find information on the industry and Orrin Woodwards lies:

    I wish you all the best in your fight for your marriage and getting the real husband back.❤

  34. luvyours permalink
    September 23, 2015 1:42 pm

    Hi Melanie,
    Thank you so much for ALL of your helpful information regarding this. Like I stated previously, I have just literally been researching the topic and the information is astounding yet damning against the industry and downright disgusting. ***sigh** my husband and I had a “civil” discussion for once and I mentioned you and your husbands name and told him everything and even gave him an account of your experience and he turned around and looked at me and stated that you and everyone else on this site were con artists and you guys were sent to scheme and topple the organization. Of course I was once again angered at the sheer stupidity and the lack of thinking skills here. I quietly finished my beverage and proceeded to walk away from the table. I just cannot tolerate the blatant ignorance, it enrages me. I also mentioned to him that the language and tactics are similar to a cult. He laughed at me and told me not to say this around anyone else at the risk of not sounding so smart. It is the lack of common sense and not being able to see past the smoke and mirrors and use reasoning skills that just sends me into a tailspin. I can show him everything but I am not sure when to and whenever I do, he merely states “well anyone could’ve written that, those ARE ONLY opinions.” Oy!!! I seriously thinks he needs counseling. in order for the home to be peaceful, we mustn’t talk about the subject matter or else all hell will break lose. I want the marriage to be happy and I want him to evolve and be a true leader in his own home, but he is just too pre occupied with the “business.” Not to mention it is a major mood killer. Thanks all for your inspiring words, wisdom and sharing of your experiences, please please keep them coming!!

  35. September 24, 2015 6:21 pm

    Luvyours, have you tried pulling up the legal documents that show the bankruptcies of “leaders” like the Newtons and Darkangelos? Those cannot be passed off as a bunch of whiners, phonies, etc.

    Take a look at the Newtons’ documents. See how much they gave to charity. See how much they owed on their house when they tell people from stage to pay cash with everything. See how much the Darkangelos owed in credit cards literally while preaching “no debt” from the stage. It is all hypocrisy at its worst. This thing is poison and and I’m sorry you’re having to suffer through it.

    We who’ve shared our stories are not fakes or plants. I hope he comes to his senses soon.

  36. Melanie Morgan permalink
    October 12, 2015 3:15 pm

    Luvyours,

    You are very wise. It is very hard to tolerate reading the turmoil and condescending comments from your husband to you. I am so sorry for your situation and the turmoil this is causing in your life. I really hope he comes to his senses and shows more respect and love to you.

    How long has your husband been in LIFE? Does he have a team and what rank is he? Does he have the ‘ear’ and attention of a top leader? Did he have and bring his downline from those other MLM’s into LIFE with him?

    You share :” I mentioned you and your husbands name and told him everything and even gave him an account of your experience and he turned around and looked at me and stated that you and everyone else on this site were con artists and you guys were sent to scheme and topple the organization.”

    For the record. Let me answer this: NO ONE has sent me, nor Anyone person or company paying me or asked me to come here.

    Ask your husband Who sent me? Ask your husband who “they are”? I would love to know who sent me. Know this luvyours, I am not mad at your husband, he is blindly following and repeating.. This is a perfect example of how the TOP control the thoughts and words of their followers. I would bet my bottom dollar your husband does even have a clue who we are, never met us, heard of us nor was he in when we were.

    Their bold faced ‘lies’… it’s just another day at the office for them, “doing business”, never mind ethics or morals… or that it’s biblically wrong! These guys and others in the industry remind me of, or are modern day Pharisees and Saccuduces.

    They make no qualms of telling your husband such lies to repeat because they need him to believe it, they would deny it, they are gutless liars who lie of others behind their backs.

    Would they say who exactly sent me to “scheme, and topple their organization”….Wish they had the guts to tell me, so I could at least collect. And whoever “they” are would just pay me a dollar for every time the followers regurgitated so many of the thoughtless lies and rhetoric. Oh the irony…. the “con artists” is exactly what they train you to be.

    Here’s the truth. I have spent my precious time sharing what I have experienced from this soul sucking “business”, because, it is the right thing to do. Could I have just walked quietly away and got my popcorn and watched them destroy themselves and others, yes. But my conscience, and love for everyone that was on our team, others and humanity whom I know are being deceived, lied to, conned out of their hard earned money and their relationships are being severed because of their greed, lies and deceptive “business”. In this process, I have also myself. That is why I am here.

    It is stories like yours that compels me. As a matter of fact, the ONLY reason I came back here was because I read yours and JT’s story. Otherwise, I have said all I can say. Funny these all knowing “guru’s” want to “shut people up” but they haven’t learned or changed a thing ( except the names and language.) and no doubt a little more crafty at CTA’S. It only takes common sense. “intelligent” without common sense…is the definition of an educated idiot where I come from.🙂 No disrespect for “intelligent people” but one must have common sense when deciphering the lies and the MLM industry.

    Moving on….

    See link below, to read to help with those doing their due dilligence. You can find thoughtless defenders from all MLm’s repeating, ad nasuem and using the deflection tactic, that I don’t even acknowledge because I am an insider who knows what they “practice” and it isn’t what they “preach”.

    Here is one of many of their (laughable to an insider and probably majority of the rest of the world) arguments “our (insert Mlm) have a A= rating with the BBB.

    Bless the followers (not the hypocrite’s, anonymous top trolls) controlled minds, no fault of theirs, they are just the followers under undue influence, conforming with their daily diet of propaganda, doing and repeating exactly what they are told; “how to handle those objections” (that btw, no don’t work) the ONLY falling for it are those who can no longer “research” or think on their own the marching minions, who then repeat the lies and twisted half truths ( still lies). Really, sad. They come directly from the TOP. and continue ad naesaum.

    Do they really care they intentionally and deliberately are passing on lies? Could it be because they are even more desperate now, and most importantly (to them) there is MILLIONS/Billions “industry wide” at stake, it really isn’t a mystery to an insider. I just smh at all the “arguments”, denial, lies, cover-ups, …. Admitting the truth, providing the facts, documents to back up their lies or the truth from all those who know, would make their millions/billions go…poof… up in smoke. amazing how this has attracted billionaires on wall street….great news for the MLM industry or not, kinda screams like a bull’s-eye…for the regulatory/”consumer protection” agencies and puts some positive pressure on finding the truth, isn’t so easy to brush in under the rug, right?

    But do they really care if they blantanly lie, over and over, to thousands with their perposturous promises, do they believe the end justify the means, is it biblically wrong, or ethically wrong, even though they are the supposed most honest- Christians who have integrity and “want to change the world for the better?” With the exception of their belief in the end justifies the means, the rest NOT as far as I can tell, when it comes to their MONEY, it is “whatever it takes”. What a sad way to live.

    They apparently think lying is somehow a ‘long term’ solution..cuz clearly they haven’t ‘learned’ yet…They have no solution to deter the truth, (lawsuits to silence and gag is their top hypicrtical, evil choice)…wonder is their “war chest” money coming out of the “profit sharing” or “pay-plan”, in other words. Other people’s money?

    Sad how they use and NEED the followers, “to believe”… everyone else already knows they are lying, this only continues to confirm what now the rest of the world is finally starting to see and truth is gaining momentum on a grander scale. Thanks to Herbalife for being a “publically traded MLM”, no doubt all the parasites are silently waiting for their demise and on the other hand. Others are nail biting, and clearly pissed, that the DOJ. FTC, attorney Generals are on it but those are following the experts around ‘trying’ to discredit them and control the influence by giving it their all in damage control. It will either go down with restoring and rebuilding trust in America and belief in consumer protection…or otherwise, it will go back to “business as usual”… The entire industry is hanging by a thread…. off a cliff and everyone knows it. I now have my popcorn out. Time is the only thing that left to tell. Those who willing hurt others….life always finds it’s way back and justly serves.

    Here is a link for readers to file away. I am not sure who if anyone lends the BBB rating any crediblity at this point.. (except the followers of course defend and “use” for their mlm…”we are legitimate because (insert MLM) our BBB rating) it has NOTHING to do with their practices nor their legitimacy. It is not a stamp of approval in legitimacy, Here they can read how much value put on the rating.

    http://money.cnn.com/2015/09/30/news/better-business-bureau/index.html

    Here is another link I thought you might be interested in the
    “lead generation” or the “system” side: the MLM within the MLM or as Forbes said about Orrin/system the pyramid on top of the pyramid. (see Forbes article on Orrin, link on this site for the details. )

    Here is a site worth following to keep up on : they seem to be following the “industry”, Herbalife, Vemma, etc . Follow them closely: https://www.truthinadvertising.org/leading-nowhere-industry-within-mlm-industry/

    Also, register for free on seeking alpha, and read ALL the articles especially the ones from William Keep, Robert E. Smith (who authored the book Downline : “….an intolerable potential to deceive”, ) articles from Rogier van Vissingen, and many others, including those you are already reading. (just see Herbalife articles on there).

    This is way to long.. but I sincerely Hope this helps you and others, seeking in your research of due dilligence.

  37. Mr_E_Nigma permalink
    November 1, 2015 7:47 am

    A very big “Argument” I receive from the pitchers including one of my dear friends here in Canada is that all the “expenses” they incur from being in the business can be written off at the end of the year for much bigger tax returns… I am by no means an expert on tax law but I would assume business expenses can only go against business revenue and NOT personal revenue.. If your business revenue is $4000 but your expenses are $8000 the delta shouldn’t be able to come off your personal income from working your regular 9-5 I would assume… further more after so many years if you are NOT turning a profit I would assume the Canadian government would stop accepting that your “business” is truly a business.. Can anyone familiar with Canadian Tax law confirm or elaborate on the taxation side? I have had now at least 4 LIFE Leaders try to tell me I can write off all these fee’s (Travel, books, CD’s, Portion of power, property taxes, etc.) and I can’t honestly say they are wrong but I feel there would be some sort of time-line or maximum..

  38. udonome permalink
    November 21, 2015 9:05 am

    Heard this week that Tim Marks is no longer a Life Leadership member of customer. What is up with that? I know this post isn’t about Tim Marks, but he and Claude were thick.

  39. November 22, 2015 8:18 am

    Do you have a source for this?

  40. freedomhaha permalink
    November 23, 2015 12:54 pm

    For what its worth he hasn’t tweeted anything TEAM LIFE related since October 25th after consistently tweeting up until that point.

  41. Melanie Morgan permalink
    November 23, 2015 3:45 pm

    udonome~

    Hi, and welcome! The Marks no longer with Life/Team or rather with Orrin’s scam, is interesting to say the least. If there were anyone of them, at the Top, whom I hoped to leave it would have been Amy Marks. I really did think she was a genuine with a good heart, until of course, they followed along and eventually were I believe corrupted. I also never thought Jill G. would do what she did either, but…as my mom always told me, “you become who you run with”.

    This would be poetic justice tho.. I was shocked the most that she could be corrupted, but then she wouldn’t do anything but follow Tim and like everyone else, Tim is just another used tool, disposable…supposed “friend” to Orrin.

    I hope you’re right. If this is true and I believe you, I just highly doubt this will ever be publicly announced, for many and obvious reasons, but I hope you can give some more information. And If Tim and Amy have left, then let’s hope it is for reasons and action to redeem themselves and others. They know withholding the truth would hurt others so lets pray they would be courageous and at least attempt to atone for the damage that has been done and show others the real truth. I would even be in their corner, if it was tor them coming clean. This could be the tipping point for so many reasons…I can forgive….I hate the saying “forgive and forget”, not wise nor true……I believe you should and can “forgive, but NEVER forget…forgetting would be foolish.

    There are some clues that I believe would point to your statement being true. and Interesting Tim & Amy’s Bio is not on the LIFE Leadership page.

    Judging by the LIEF Unconcieable, unfair, enslaving, gagging …member contract, and knowing exactly how they treat others, I would wager the Marks, have left due to “conflict”…and it would be “all about the money”… and or their no doubt notorious being screwed over in some way……I am reminded of the “Ron Day Rule”… Time will tell…and we will see what the Marks do.

    ***Speaking of the contract…WHY ISN’T THE FTC ADDRESSING THESE MULTIPAGED UNCONCIEABLE AND UNFAIR CONTRACTS? I have noticed a few people touch on this and Robert Fitzpatrick gave this some attention, but for the most part, imo it is being ignored completely, everyone ELSE especially the “MLM companies” do their best to downplay this and the rest are ignoring the most important issue!

    There is absolutely ZERO protection for the consumer, from day one! Not to mention the fraudsters tell everyone they “own their own business”…which intentionally misleads along with labels like IBO (independent business owners), “independent contractor” or “reps” …Has anyone read these contracts, does anyone see this or is it just me?

    It is the “ball & chain” of MLM…. the comp plan’s (the ball) is rigged against the masses then they had the (chain) the contract! There has never been this much truth exposed about MLM, Team, Orrin and the ect… in the history. I wish I had this info, years ago!

  42. Melanie Morgan permalink
    November 23, 2015 4:31 pm

    Mr. E Nigma~

    I am not an expert on tax law either, that is why we had an accountant.But when I asked (upline) about this very important issue, it was “get yourself an accountant”….in other words…avoidance any and all accountability which is what you get on any tough questions… standard in MLM.

    And yes they all say you can “write of everything off.” as a lure… Thing about this tho, if you are losing money year after year, after year , that isn’t so, that much I know. I then becomes a ‘hobby’ if you show no profit after (can’t remember, but I think a couple of years).

    Vogel would be a good one to help answer that, this always got him going!🙂

    All of their “arguments” are nothing more than a distraction and avoidance from the whole truth, because if they had to tell the whole truth, they know, aint no one be that dumb to get involved.

    Try calling the IRS, explain that to them and ask them that question.🙂

  43. freedomhaha permalink
    November 23, 2015 8:35 pm

    Melanie Morgan- This could be time for Tim and Amy to practice what they preach by stepping up and providing insight that could help thousands of other families if they are indeed leaving. Do the right thing Tim!

    Melanie, I thank you and your family along with other high ranking people for stepping up and doing your part to help people avoid this cult.

  44. Melanie Morgan permalink
    November 24, 2015 12:31 am

    freedomhaha~

    Thank you for your kind words and contribution! I agree this is a perfect opportunity for Tim and Amy to do the right thing and sincerely hope they do, but won’t be holding my breath..not too optimistic.

  45. udonome permalink
    November 24, 2015 12:41 am

    Twas a statement posted on the Life website for approx. 24hours or so on Thursday, Nov 20. I dnt have a link or screen grab. As I understand it Tim is starting a company. A shopping club. You spend money buying xyz anyway right?? Join and you can save buying the same stuff. Then when you want to get riiiiich you help others do the same and..well you get the idea.

  46. November 24, 2015 7:24 am

    Let’s move the discussion about Marks over to this post:

    https://amthrax.wordpress.com/2015/11/24/x-marks-the-spot-except-when-it-doesnt/

  47. Anonymous permalink
    March 3, 2016 7:40 am

    With the exception of the “free” part, this Dilbert cartoon made me think of LIEF:

    https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRRVQlRmaW-wHdWY468YBneQPVVYkt_Ab2mGcFLoBZgwF6PvSnrpQ

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  1. X Marks the Spot… Except When it Doesn’t | AMTHRAX

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