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X Marks the Spot… Except When it Doesn’t

November 24, 2015

A commenter wrote recently that Tim Marks does not appear to be part of LIFE Leadership anymore.

Today, the footer in the official Life Leadership website lists the following names for Founders: Orrin Woodward, Chris Brady, Claude Hamilton, George Guzzardo, Bill Lewis, and Dan Hawkins.

Yet, the Internet Archive’s Wayback Machine has a snapshot of the LIFE Leadership website on November 3, 2015 which clearly shows Tim Marks name listed in the same footer.

On November 3, 2015, Tim Marks was listed on the LIFE Leadership website's footer.

On November 3, 2015, Tim Marks was listed on the LIFE Leadership website’s footer. Today, his name is missing.

Furthermore, conducting a search for LIFE Leadership material written by “Marks” on the LIFE Leadership Store shows zero results. Entering “Brady,” “Hamilton,” or “Woodward,” for instance, shows a number of expected results.

No search results for "Marks" on the LIFE Leadership Store

No search results for “Marks” on the LIFE Leadership Store anymore? November 23, 2015

This begs the question, “What happened?” Has the Viking set off on another voyage? Has Tim’s departure been communicated to the greater TEAM/LIFE community? If so, what was the reason for him leaving? If not, why not?

If anyone has more verified information, please leave it in the comments section below.

221 Comments leave one →
  1. Rascal Teamster permalink
    November 24, 2015 7:09 am

    Wow, what a shake up. This will pull me out of the woodwork. How has everyone been?

    My former Life Coach and PC no longer with LIFE? What the hell? Wish I still had a direct line with Mark Paul. I will definitely be in contact with a couple former uplines and a downline today. I’ll post what I find out.

    Tim’s blog makes no mention of the LIFE business…he’s just a best selling author it reads.

    I did find this link that proves that he was a founder.

    I thought that the goal of the Amway/Team/Monavie/LIFE was to build a big business and retire with a big fat residual income??? Seems to be what Tim accomplished. He’s the success story, poster child of MLM….slum lord turned millionaire businessman. Normally when you reach the top and retire, the company doesn’t erase any and all memory of you. They put your fricking picture on the wall, a gold watch, and a going away party.

    The founders would have done this much more professionally if this parting was on good terms. They didn’t say bye. They didn’t assassinate his character. They eradicated it like it was a disease.

    I can only imagine (and giggle) at PC meeting that went down after this. If ever there was a time to be a fly on the wall.

    What did you do, Tim?

  2. November 24, 2015 7:24 am

    udonome posted this comment in the other post:

    Twas a statement posted on the Life website for approx. 24hours or so on Thursday, Nov 20. I dnt have a link or screen grab. As I understand it Tim is starting a company. A shopping club. You spend money buying xyz anyway right?? Join and you can save buying the same stuff. Then when you want to get riiiiich you help others do the same and..well you get the idea.

  3. Truthslayer permalink
    November 24, 2015 9:11 am

    Hey All, reading all these posts from folks on here and from a perspective of factual information, I just want to say yes, Tim Marks DID resign and yes it was for good moral reasons I happen to know. Tim and Amy are two of the most courageous moral people in this industry who have always stood up for truth but not normally listened to – and as someone like Tim who has been branded and touted even by the big leaders inside of Life Leadership as the “moral compass” of the business, wouldn’t it raise questions as to why he and Amy would leave?? Are anyone of you actually cognitively thinking that way or asking yourselves those questions as opposed to just immediately thinking there was petty conflict?

    He DID resign and I know for a fact that he was asked to stay, and couldn’t because his moral compass was pointing in the opposite direction of the company and YES he was making a lot of money – he left because he was sick of seeing the people in his team that both him and Amy care deeply about, NOT making money. If Tim did anything, it was stand UP for principle.

    Bottom line, he resigned, the statement on the site that was only left up for 24 hours was not accurate, (they wanted him to stay and he morally decided that he couldn’t and didn’t, so they memory wiped him from the archives of the company).

    Bottom line up front – it’s not a question of what “did Tim do”, it’s a question of what he was “unwilling to do.” Why would someone give up that kind of money every month/year etc… If THERE WAS NOT AN ISSUE deeply rooted in how the company was steering its ship?? This WAS NOT like a high school break up where they said “we don’t wanna be together anymore, you hurt my feelings” …Tim left because he had to leave based off of a decision he made (and he was nearly begged to stay and still didn’t – so “who” needs “who” in this instance?).

    He couldn’t sell a message to people he cares about that he didn’t believe in. And all of you hopefully would do the same. lets seek accuracy, not heresay.

    Take it for what it’s worth, this is what happened.

    Let’s keep the truth the truth.

  4. Anonymous permalink
    November 24, 2015 9:31 am

    I’ve never posted on this blog before. However, to avoid unnecessary speculation I feel the need to do so.
    Yes, last week there was a message on the LIFE website thanking Tim & Amy Marks for 16 great years. It wasn’t posted very long for some reason.
    The remaining Policy Council wanted to wish Tim Marks the best in his pursuit of other ventures.
    My understanding is Tim Marks chose to resign his position and is no longer an owner of LIFE Leadership.
    That being said, I’m sure Tim Marks would appreciate having his name deleted from LIFE Leadership tags, ownership, affiliation, etc.

  5. Melanie Morgan permalink
    November 24, 2015 12:05 pm

    Thanks for responding, udonome. 🙂

    Amthrax & Rascal you guys are funny, thanks for the laughs!

    Well, I would bet “4LIFE” is the new Viking Voyage..and no, no one has told me, just spent way too many years in the MLM pyramid school… those who remain in the “industry” are so very predictable. 🙂

    How does that go again?…”Success leaves a trail of clues”…but success…interpret that however you wish.

    Y’all have a blessed Thanksgiving!….I have an abundance of things to be thankful for…y’all are one of them!

  6. Melanie Morgan permalink
    November 24, 2015 1:28 pm

    Does anyone on here remember a discussion about a cut thoat move, involving Claude & Tim Marks? I remember something about a “big leader” being taken from Tim, I believe, and Claude then sponsoring them? Appreciate your help.

  7. freedomhaha permalink
    November 24, 2015 2:33 pm

    It it just over 4 years since I have left LIFE, and I am so thankful to be out! I hope that those still in the cult reading this realize what a breath of fresh air it is once you leave. Please see Tim and Amy leaving as another sign that this is all a charade.

    Not having my money and free thought stolen this Thanksgiving is a huge blessing!

  8. Rascal Teamster permalink
    November 24, 2015 6:12 pm


    Moral Compass? Really? Did Tim have a recent life changing epiphany? I know Tim and Amy as well, as many of us here do. The Tim Marks I know was one of the founders of Life who helped craft one of the most top heavy comp plans in the industry. At 27-1 it is far worse than the Amway 24-1 that he warred against. Then he paraded around the country with Orrin and Chris touting how this was “all about the new guy.” He knew what he was doing.

    It’s always about the new guy. New blood in the system yields new revenue. With Tim Marks, Life is a life of double speak.

    Tell ya what, if Mr. Moral Compass wants anyone here to believe that the leopard changed his spots, maybe a public apology is in order. Maybe something on his blog apologizing for scamming people (I believe taking advantage of people were your words) for so many years. If he feels really, really bad, maybe he can sell a boat or two and give the money back to the people he scammed it from? I’m sure people here would send him their address.

    There was another man in Team who once felt the same way you say Tim does. He was a Godly man with strong values, and when he saw the same thing you say Tim does, Pastor Dickie made a public statement in church. He was crucified for it by the same man you say is moral. It was ugly.

    Until the time he publicly makes a statement, I find your post hard to believe.

    Look, if I am right, we will never see the apology. But if you are right, Tim just admitted he feels that the Life business takes advantage of people. I believe that Tim Marks is still the same Viking he’s always been, but I’m ok with you being right on this one.

  9. Truthslayer permalink
    November 25, 2015 8:03 am


    Well first off let me just say – I’m ok with being right as well. Matter of fact I really and truly love to be right – just ask my wife. 😉

    Phew!! Now that that truth is out in the open – I’m not looking for an argument – all Im saying is that the facts are the facts and let’s just remember that in the entire history of mankind, that there was only one perfect man (since we’re going to bring the Bible into the discussion). “We all fall short…”

    Alright, enough of that!
    What I will say is that Tim most likely has a gag order and that the TRUTH WILL come out in due time. All the people who feel the way you do, probably will get the statement you’re looking for. And more power to you if you or anyone else needs that to move on. The man is genuine. Actions speak louder than words. And man will they speak loudly… The truth WILL come out.

    But I really need to ask this – Id like to know if anyone blogging about OTHER people on here like it’s their life mission, would have the GUTS to walk away from tens of millions of dollars?? I find the bantering and speculation on here about it all very laughable. The answer is no. It’s just the truth. Here’s another verse that comes to mind – “remove the log from your own eye…”

    And on very viable and factual information – if you want, you can call Pastor Dickie personally (if you have his number) and he can tell you about the relationship that he and Tim have. Matter of fact ask him about all the conversations they’ve had over the last few years together when they’ve hung out together whenever Tim traveled to Michigan.

    The truth will come out. Draw your own conclusions but only God can see the heart. Not looking for enemies here. Just the truth – and the truth will set you free. All in due time. 🙂 Happy Thanksgiving.

  10. Margie permalink
    November 25, 2015 8:45 am

    [Editor’s note: The author of this comment requested that it be removed.]

  11. Rascal Teamster permalink
    November 25, 2015 9:23 am


    I may be totally wrong here, but I’m going to dust off the crystal ball and go out on a limb. I was typing this when you posted.

    Regarding your statement, I have talked with Pastor, and I don’t feel I need to again.

    Sorry this is soooo long, but seriously, this is worth the read.

    Rascal’s Crystal Ball Post…What’s really up with LIFE???

    This thought hit me last night as I was thinking about Udonome’s initial post…followed by Truthslayer’s.

    This Moral Compass thing is killing me. It’s too much of a stretch. I go back to my earlier question. Is this a recent epiphany by Tim, and the leopard who has always gone along with the mob has changed his spots?

    The following is just my opinion but do the math.

    We know damn well that every single person in Tim’s team has been sworn to silence. I was told that yesterday….”We’re not supposed to talk about it,” but yet here WE are talking about it. Why would someone break that code of silence with something so big happening? I mean, we didn’t initiate this topic and someone defend Tim. This info was dropped here out of the blue.

    Why would the ice be broken here? That makes no sense…or does it?

    I think the Marks’ organization is using this blog to post their “coming out party.” I think we are being played.

    Think about it…

    First post…”Tim left LIFE” (this info is HUGE, stirs the pot and gets everyone’s attention).

    Second post…”Tim’s the Moral Compass” (build up Tim’s character…he’s not like the rest of them. He’s the honest one).

    A side note…Seriously, even if all the other worms have said he’s the best worm, it still makes him a worm.

    Third post…”Look what Tim’s doing” (We haven’t seen this one yet, but this is where they will lay out the plan they have in store, and how it’s everything WE always dreamed of).

    Can any of you think of a better platform to announce the opening of The Walmart Of The Internet than the blog that was taken over by the people who always wanted to create it? How can we really argue with that? All we can do is attack Tim’s character, which is why I believe they are defending it now. Besides, they wouldn’t want to announce something like this on a LIFE blog. It will be viewed as more of the same crap from Orrin and Chris.

    A former teammate told me this statement, “Tim’s always been the moral compass.” Yeah, it’s a talking point sent down from the top. You’ll hear it a lot. (Truthslayer…who are you really, and why are you using the same words that came down from Tim to Mark Paul?)

    So here’s the deal….

    Months back I was contacted by a former teammate regarding the Track-N-Save program. My FT told me that this was a 2 phase plan. Phase 1 was a subscription discount shopping club. Phase 2 was a full blown PV on product sales business…in a nut shell, Orrin’s Walmart Of The Internet.

    Apparently this new biz was the plan months ago. “Something” happened at the top a few weeks back and the plan changed. Abandon Phase 2. Stick with leadership and Phase 1. It caused a riff in the PC. Tim resigned and is moving forward with Phase 2 without them.

    In essence, Tim just did to Orrin what Orrin did to Amway for the same exact reasons.

    Poetic justice? I’m not so sure. I’m skeptical…and rightly so with this group. I’ve been with this group through four businesses and heard a lot of lies.

    Does anyone on this site believe that this Phase 2 rollout is viable, and the PC isn’t willing to do it? Even if they “backed out” because there isn’t enough initial money at the top (my original thought), Orrin always believed (and rightly so) that a properly built product business will win in the end based on volume. Think Amazon Prime. Think Walmart. Cheap prices on the products you already use delivered to your door, AND a payback on volume below you.

    Orrin’s fought for this belief and paid for it with millions…they all did. A quick Goolge search will show you that Orrin, Chris and Tim paid $20 million to Amway for wrong doings to hold onto this belief when they lost the lawsuit. That’s a LOT of belief.

    Here’s what we know the PC knows. Their current business is dying. Leadership is the product everyone needs, but the one that no one is willing to pay for. They know they need to change business models. They also want to end this war with us. If they can stick it to Amway in the process, they are drooling. That’s a win/win/win!

    What’s the quickest way to end a war? Give up….or appear to….like playing possum. If Orrin and Chris are no longer running this, we can’t really dump on them. We can dump on Tim, but so far, he’s really escaped a lot of scrutiny here.

    What better way to launch a brand new business than have Tim lead it. Tim’s business is HUGE…bigger than Chris’s. No bankruptcies with Tim. He’s a strong choleric that people will follow into battle, and his track record indicates that he can build a business.
    However, I would not be surprised if the LIFE founders all have a serious owner stake in this at the majority stock holder positions, that Tim leaving is a smoke screen, and the whole LIFE organization follows Tim and morphs into this. It will all be natural and organic.

    Does anyone believe that the Three Amigos actually parted ways? I believe they would “close ‘er down” and retire together on an island before that happens. Too much history there. They would live and die on the hill together like good little soldiers IMO. As a military vet, that blood runs real deep.

    Notice how no one in LIFE is attacking Tim’s character or rebutting the moral compass lingo? They actually thanked him for his service??? WTH??? This moral compass lingo is a back handed slap at Orrin and the rest of the PC. That NEVER goes unanswered. Either from stage or in an Orrin blog, this would be addressed. I mean no one has said a word on either side. Remember how they attacked Pastor Dickie? O was threatened with a lawsuit if he didn’t stop. Remember how they attacked Amway? Remember how they attacked us when we left? It’s their MO. We’re traitors. No daggers aimed at Tim? Weird eh?

    I could be seriously wrong here and go down in flames. I would eat crow and apologize to Tim and all for jumping to conclusions about his character epiphany, but this just smells poopy. Orrin would sue Tim in a heartbeat. Nothing personal….just business. He’d have to.

    Stand by for the announcement of the closing of LIFE, and the total joining of current LIFE members with Tim’s new deal….I mean…Orrin’s new deal…I mean…the Founder’s new deal…in January. Oh hell, they’re all the same.

    But all of this being said, if the numbers are right, I always believed this model would work. So did Amazon. (I have no idea how they will compete against Amazon’s margins. You would have to be able to build it fast enough to give people a return bigger than their Amazon savings…and fast. It can’t take a year).

    Man, I just can’t trust the them or Tim. As Orrin always said, “character matters,” and Tim is not the only PC who feels they have been taking advantage of people. They all knew it when they drafted the LIFE business. It will be interesting to see their new comp plan broken down when it becomes available.

    Will it be printed by Obstacles Press? Will Obstacles Press change names? That print shop makes a LOT of money for Orrin and Chris.

    There is a hiccup in my thought process. This also might all be legit. I’m concerned about the Non Solicitation form current members of the New Deal are having current LIFE members sign before they will talk to them. Another rouge???

    Okay, now I’m putting away the crystal ball and donning my flame retardant suit just in case. I’m also looking up good recipes for crow. Anyone got any?

    Happy Thanksgiving all. And thanks Truthslayer for the non confrontational exchange. You have to give us the benefit of the doubt, brother. Most of us here were taken for thousands by Tim’s moral compass.

  12. November 25, 2015 10:44 am

    FYI – There once was a glowing article about the Marks on Orrin’s blog which now results in a page not found error:

    Other articles remain from that month praising the Brady’s and Guzzardo’s. An archive of the Marks article can still be found on Internet Archive. The last snapshot was taken on June 9, 2015:

    Interpret that how you wish to.

    Marks still has his thank you back to Orrin (for writing the article) on his blog. Will that stay up for long?

  13. noteam permalink
    November 25, 2015 11:34 am


    Brian Nieves is the leader you are thinking of. He was an Emerald under the Paullins in the old Amway business 20 years ago. Then, the Paullins got put under Tim Marks during all the games of the move to MonaVie.

    Then, somehow Brian was re-sponsored under Claude Hamilton who is cross-line to the Marks. Brian had a bunch of posts on facebook at the time about he had been re-connected with one of his former idols from years earlier and how Claude was coming to his house in Missouri. This did not set will with Tim Marks.

  14. noteam permalink
    November 25, 2015 11:38 am

    Something must be going on at TEAM/LIFE these days. Mark Haas recently sold his house and all his belongings in an auction (sometime last summer) and moved to North Carolina. Odd, since the overwhelming majority of his old group lives in Missouri or Texas.

    He had tons of items for sale from his old refridgeration business. Did he need the money from the sale of all his items because his business was dropping? Does he plan on getting a job in North Carolina due to his business income dropping and doesn’t want his group here to find out? I do not know. Just seems odd that someone would pack up and move to a state where they had very little group.

  15. Rascal Teamster permalink
    November 25, 2015 12:59 pm

    Noteam, this is going to sound totally bonkers, but check this out on Google. There are two Mark Haas’ in North Carolina only an hour apart.

    Didn’t Chris Brady move to the Carolinas in the same town with someone named Christopher Brady? I believe he did.

    Makes it a little more difficult to locate the guy you’re searching for in the listings when there’s more than one.

    That would be bananas, I know, but isn’t Mark part of Brady’s team? Monkey see, monkey do maybe?

    I don’t mean to be rude. I personally have nothing against monkeys.

  16. freedomhaha permalink
    November 25, 2015 1:36 pm

    Two questions come to mind after reading the current mess that is going on here.

    1) Since I was not a high leader I will ask those that sponsored more people than I did. How high up can you get in the business before the truth is exposed? I ask this because if Tim was the “moral compass” he would have been exposed to all of the normal TEAM garbage, and didn’t do anything about it for at least 15 years.

    2) Don’t you think that Tim being the “moral compass” that he is shouldn’t he use this to save the lives of thousands of people?

  17. noteam permalink
    November 25, 2015 1:47 pm

    Freedomhaha – By the time anyone reaches Turbo 25, there’s no way they could not know about all the deception. By that time, they would know about all the people in their downline losing money year after year. And they would have seen how the real money was being made.

    Unfortunately, by this time, you’ve already been totally alienated from any non-TEAM/LIFE friends and family and the cult thinking takes over. You know you will immediately lose any friends in TEAM/LIFE who will have nothing to do. But by this time, it has been your whole life for years and you have literally nothing or no one to go to. You’re totally embarrassed to have to admit to the hundreds of people in your city that know you that they were right. It’s such a tough thing to go through, as a former leader, when you leave. I went from being so loved and adored by everyone on stage one week, to one week later, those same 300 people I saw every Tuesday night would have nothing to do with me and cautioned anyone from talking to me. I had one of the biggest leaders in my downline for years, text me that a major leader in TEAM told them they were to have no contact with me.

    So while I still do not like all the deceptive things Tim did and went along with, I do have some forgiveness for him, if in fact, he did truly leave due to the deception.

    Rascal – yes, Mark Haas was personally mentored by Chris Brady. I wonder if Mark Haas moved to North Carolina so he could declare bankruptcy without being noticed?

  18. Rascal Teamster permalink
    November 25, 2015 2:03 pm

    I was thinking it may be a way to hide and not be found by the people you deceived should they come looking for you.

    I can not imagine what it must be like to have deceived that many people out of that much money. Wouldn’t you constantly be looking over your shoulder?

    That crossed my mind when I realized how many big leaders were packing heat.

    Lol…and I don’t have anything against guns either….just criminals with guns.

    But bankruptcy works too.

  19. November 25, 2015 5:35 pm

    @rascal – I doubt this is why they moved to North Carolina. To hide behind someone else with the same name. In the case of Brady, that’s a very common name.

  20. noteam permalink
    November 25, 2015 7:48 pm

    Just heard from someone in LIFE/TEAM that they are all being told it was a friendly parting of ways 🙂 And that Tim’s former group is now being told their new upline is Bill Lewis who is now married to someone who supposedly was introduced to him by Jackie’s parents?

  21. Vogel permalink
    November 26, 2015 8:41 am

    Truthslayer said: “But I really need to ask this – Id like to know if anyone blogging about OTHER people on here like it’s their life mission, would have the GUTS to walk away from tens of millions of dollars??”

    That’s a deceptive question. No veteran MLM scammer would simply walk away from tens of millions of dollars. They walk away only after they get pushed out; see a large decline in revenue; and/or move to another MLM scam from which they think greater profits can be reaped. There are no saints in MLM.

    Truthslayer said: “I find the bantering and speculation on here about it all very laughable. The answer is no. It’s just the truth. Here’s another verse that comes to mind – ‘remove the log from your own eye’…”

    There’s no log in my eye. I have never even contemplated exploiting people by trying to rope them into a dopey pyramid scheme. You seem to be painting with a broad brush, trying to comfort yourself with the rationalization that everyone is just like a greedy MLM scammer, but that’s simply not the case. MLM has numbed you to reality and cracked your moral compass.

    Marks does not deserve accolades or being lionized as a moral crusader. One look at his blog postings shows that he’s every bit as much of an exploitative a-hole as the worst of the worst in MLM.

    Rewriting history to flatter Marks is as absurd as putting Woodward on a pedestal as a “leadership guru”. You can’t just shake the Etch-a-Sketch and expect people to forget.

  22. November 26, 2015 6:27 pm

    Friends, long time no talk. On this Thanksgiving Day, I am reminded of how fortunate I have been over the past 8 years or so, to have swallowed THE RED PILL.

    Regarding Tim, I too think this is suspect. I will believe it when I see a public apology from Tim and Amy and their leaders; Chuck and Nancy Cullen, Mark and Jenn Paul and others for the people they have betrayed and burned over the years by following Orrin and Laurie.

  23. November 27, 2015 6:41 pm

    Tim as a moral compass? Ha! That man bullied and lied to his downline as standard operating procedure. There’s nothing moral about Tim except for whatever airs he puts on to draw in the church crowd.

    There’s more to this story, a lot more. I guarantee you that the PC war room has been hard at work with a passive-aggressive strategy. Let this shake out some more, the crap will float to the top.

  24. exTEAMster permalink
    November 30, 2015 3:50 am

    Marks “resigned” as an owner? His downline is taken over by Bill Lewis? I thought Marks was a “B” business owner. As such wouldn’t he be able to sell his business? After all he built it right? Couldn’t he appoint a successor to take over his business, all the while earning revenue from it while he pursued the chance at another entrepreneurial venture? Oh wait….I forgot. No one in LIFE or any other MLM truly owns their own business even though every recruiting pitch touts the many wonders of such. I hope at least a few of the brain-washed minions figure out from this episode that they are not business owners but mere sales reps for a book and CD company.

  25. Nate permalink
    November 30, 2015 5:52 am

    It was after I read Tim Marks first book released through LIFE that I quit. I could tell just by the lack of substance it was nothing more than just something to put out there so they could push it through the subscription process. I could of wrote a better book.

  26. November 30, 2015 5:59 am

    Does anyone on here have any inside information about what happened at Pastor Dickies church when he realized what he was involved in? There was a little information on this stream about some things that took place. The reason for my inquiry is that we have family members who have used his participation as credence for their involvement. Now they feign ignorance when approached with this question. I have also read on some other streams that his church was split as a result of what came down there, and also resulted in many divorces. Is this true?

  27. Caleb Jackson permalink
    December 1, 2015 8:11 am

    So…as a recently (within last 2 weeks) departed member of Tim’s team in Kansas, i was told the following just yesterday.

    The reason Tim left was due to a conflict with orrin and chris. Although most of it actually lies with Chris. Tim wanted life to be more based upon products and services to make the “system” better while Orrin and Chris wanted less products and services and to focus on a global leadership platform. The conflict comes in that all the leadership information, products, books, CD’s, and all the other information life leadership produces is more of a money maker for Orrin and Chris than anyone else. If you add the fact that the production company that produces the information for life leadership is in fact owned by Chris Brady himself, that creates a conflict of interest within life leadership itself.

    Orrin woodward has a 53% ownership in life leadership while Chris Brady has a either 23% or 25% ownership. Tim has a 11% ownership in life. This is important because the idea of a “policy council” that is fair and balanced is a load of crap considering the 53% majority Orrin Woodward has in the company, if Orrin doesn’t want to do something, it’s not getting done. From what i heard, everytime Tim would talk to Orrin about new ideas in products and services and think he would have Orrin going in the right direction (his direction), Orrin would talk to Chris and change his stance.

    I don’t know how much of this is true or false, quite frankly it’s a moot point at this point in time, i just thought i’d give my 2 cents.

  28. December 1, 2015 12:38 pm

    @caleb – Thanks for sharing what you were told. I don’t think the ownership structure of LIFE was ever discussed. Is the remaining ownership share divided up between Guzzardo, Lewis, Hamilton and Hawkins?

    Second, you wrote that you left Tim’s team. Did you stay with LIFE too, or did you leave there too? Do you have information or thoughts on what’s happening with the rest of the Marks’ team? From what I understand, it was quite sizable.

  29. Rascal Teamster permalink
    December 1, 2015 1:51 pm


    Thanks for the insight. Congrats on your recent freedom? Ironic isn’t it…with all the potential freedom that Life preaches, that you’re not really free till you leave???

    What you posted definitely goes along with what Truthslayer was posting. Maybe it is true.

    How long were you affiliated with Life? You were part of the Newton’s group?

  30. Hugh Allen permalink
    December 1, 2015 5:05 pm

    I have a few friends on Life Leadership. I looked at their LinkedIn and Twitter pages, and they all have delinked/unfollows Tim Marks. They seemed to have completely disavowed him

  31. ItsaPauling permalink
    December 1, 2015 6:54 pm

    Man, the dumpster diving at the Team/Life offices will be fantastic!
    Lots more materials for those that sell on EBAY to dive for.

  32. freedomhaha permalink
    December 2, 2015 4:49 am

    Caleb- Thank you for providing this information. More importantly congrats on your freedom from LIFE. I have no doubt that the info you shared will help others become free.

  33. switch permalink
    December 4, 2015 2:25 pm

    LMAO….omg, I love it!

  34. switch permalink
    December 6, 2015 10:51 am

    So…in the mean time, Tim Marks rides off into the sunset, leaving his team behind?…

    I’m curious, Tim…what happened?

  35. noteam permalink
    December 6, 2015 6:44 pm

    switch – I was wondering the same thing. What about Mark & Jenn Paul, Chris Mattis, Bill & Jan Newton, etc? What is going on with them? There’s no way they could just watch Tim Marks leave without finally realizing their doubts are real.

  36. December 6, 2015 9:55 pm

    I’ve been stewing over this the past week and it’s made me emotional. I have good friends who left great situations to do Life full time and now one of the PC, who encouraged it all, has given up his supposed ‘B’ business.

    Why? Isn’t that the pitch that we all sold to our friends? That you can build it as much or as little as you want? That it would set you free? Why’d Tim have to give it up? Why couldn’t he just stop building, collect the checks, and do something else with his free time?

    We all know why and now, a PC has confirmed it: MLM’s are poorly paying ‘S’ jobs that make you work 2nd shift & weekends.

    This has to be the end for Tim’s team. They can’t stay in because they all know that if Tim can’t keep his biz, no one can. And they can’t follow him to some new scam because he’s already lead them astray with Amway/Team/Life.

    If you’re considering Life or one of many other MLM scams, PLEASE think twice before you do. It’s all a load of crap.

  37. Truly Free from Life permalink
    December 7, 2015 9:53 am

    I can echo the statement above that LIFE members were told Tim is leaving to form his own product company (I am, sigh, a former LIFE member 3 years free of it but have family still involved). Knowing how this organization plays their cards there is a lot more to this story. Also, all of the Marks’ cd’s, etc are being destroyed as order from head office.

  38. exTEAMster permalink
    December 7, 2015 11:12 am

    I’m very curious how this is being spun to the minions. What’s Tim telling his downline versus what the other PC are saying? Is Tim saying there’s a difference in philosophy? If so doesn’t that fly in the face of the ‘do as Orrin and Chris do’ mentality? Are the other leaders saying Tim left for business reasons? If so doesn’t that cast doubt on the idea that LIFE is the best business out there? I’d love to know what the mid-tier leaders are being told what they can and can’t say.

  39. Truly Free from Life permalink
    December 7, 2015 11:45 am

    It looks very hush-hush and the statements been made that he wants to start a product based company and “there will be no more questions asked”. Now they scrub him from their “system” and go on like he never existed the same way they have for others who have left. Very much a strategy from Orwell’s 1984. Now I get some conversation from those still there but they don’t seem to be being told anything of substance.

  40. freedomhaha permalink
    December 7, 2015 11:51 am

    For those of you that have been following along a lot longer than I have is Tim the highest profile leader ever to leave TEAM? It shocks me that they are even admitting that he is starting a different company because that naturally implies weakness in LIFE.

  41. noteam permalink
    December 7, 2015 12:13 pm

    Freedomhaha – Tim is the highest original TEAM leader to leave. Orrin’s Pastor Dickie, former CFO Bobbie Dickie (Pastor Dickie’s son), Billy Florence & Randy Haugen (mega legends in the old Amway business, each of whom had businesses multiple times larger than Orrin ever had), Chuck Goestschel, Lance Smith, Columbo DiSalvatore, Jeff & Barb Granger (personals of Orrin), Melanie Morgan & Raquel Peters (mega leaders of the original TEAM and the largest leg of George Guzzardo), Don & Chris Freeze (personals of Orrin & Orrin’s former boss).

  42. Rascal Teamster permalink
    December 7, 2015 3:31 pm


    How many times did we hear from our common upline Roundtable that Orrin was a genius? The edification for that man was unbearable.

    I even heard Tim Marks do that from numerous Team stages. Remember the major when he went off about being smarter than Orrin? Mocked people who think so, he did. Even said he was going to creat a “Smarter Than Orrin” button to hand to people he mentors whenever they deviate and go “cowboy.”

    I find it mildly amusing to see all the knuckleheads who said that from stages across North America turn 180 degrees and leave Orrin. Is he no longer a genius now that it doesn’t suit your bank account?

    Freedom, this very question was asked of me by our upline 6 months into Life when I questioned the validity of a leadership based business. I believe I said, “I must be smarter than Orrin, because even I this won’t work.” That’s when he suggested I don’t call him anymore. That was pretty much that for me.

    To answer your question about a weakness in Life, the answer was obvious. After multiple failed business models, if Orrin was really ever that smart, wouldn’t he have figured it out by now? I would would almost say those leaders have bad genius judgement, and I don’t trust them to figure it out this time either. The weaknesses in this model are glaring.

    Can you actually see Tim Marks leaving and actually creating a fairer plan than they currently have? Will it really be slanted toward the new guy, or when we crunch the numbers, will it still be as heavy as the last one this group created?

    The problem is not the product you sell. It’s your comp plan!

    I have been told that Life has a non compete clause like the old Q plan…a six month timeline. Does anyone know if that is true? Oddly, a former downline told me that he will run both businesses, because “everyone needs leadership.”

    Noteam, great job on recalling all those names. That St. Louis major with everyone there was crazy. That was a long time ago that they all promised what Tim thinks he can deliver now with a much smaller group. I see this getting very ugly.

  43. noteam permalink
    December 7, 2015 5:10 pm

    Rascal – I still think it’s hilarious that we used to regularly top 20,000+ at Majors 7 years ago, and now with all the growth they are all the way up to less than 6,500 at Majors 🙂

  44. Melanie Morgan permalink
    December 7, 2015 9:32 pm


    Thanks for answering my question above, without a doubt there IS “conflict” and ‘trouble in paradise’. Those who would believe it was a “friendly” departure Ha!…don’t be deceived.

    I agree with those who said there is way more to this story and the crap; will come to the surface.. from the TOP. to the top.

    Despite what truthslayer says, the whole truth will never be told, not by Tim, Orrin, Chris,or any of them PC, Life coach, whatever they call themselves…

    As for Truthslayer, he has a lot of audacity to come especially on Amthrax site and claim Tim and Amy are the “moral compass”…I am not sure if he is trying to convince himself but he can’t possibly believe anyone on here is that stupid nor would even entertain that thought. As rascal said, a leopard doesn’t change it’s spots. I could go into a list of facts/truth, (that interestingly truthslayer conveniently to left out, claiming he is in the know with facts and truth) that would prove anything but the Marks as having a “moral compass”…but I won’t waist my energy …everyone here already knows, just read the site….as for me it is popcorn time. They won’t recover from this and no one to blame but themselves.

    Speaking of duplication… :)..Watching this is like reading the story in the bible of the Pharaoh, these guys are all the same. It’s plague, after plague, creating their own demise… and the geniuses can’t see to (or won’t) change a thing, they won’t man up and none are willing to fix the fundamental problems.


    I would like to thank You and please pass onto Mr. & Mrs. Leopard or Mr and Mrs Moral Compass in your view, a HUGE thank you!!! They just validated EVERY single story, and comment on this site! So THANKS!

  45. free4life permalink
    December 8, 2015 12:19 am

    Just found out today that Chris Mattis, Venkat Veranda, and Mark and Jenn Paul have left to follow Tim Marks. Not sure what is going on but Tim must be on to something big to lure these lifers away from Orrin.

  46. freedomhaha permalink
    December 8, 2015 4:50 am

    noteam- Other than that it is working great, right? 🙂

  47. Melanie Morgan permalink
    December 8, 2015 7:59 am

    freedomhaha & noteam~

    To your first question :”How high up can you get in the business before the truth is exposed?– I ask this because if Tim was the “moral compass” he would have been exposed to all of the normal TEAM garbage, and didn’t do anything about it for at least 15 years. ”

    Noteam~ Were you privy to inside information at turbo 25? I think that would be a very rare situation at turbo 25, at least back in the day, maybe you meant in todays information age ;).

    If you are talking about today ….. then I don’t think you even have to get started to see the truth, Just a little google search away to know you need to run far and fast!

    I 100% agree with that being possible TODAY, but was not our case nor I don’t believe anyone at turbo 25 had a clue back when we got started, but today… with the help of so many whistle blowers, lawsuits, Amthrax site, and many, many other websites, Former AG, College Professors who have and are studying MLM for years now and advocating for the truth, comp plan analysis> good guys helping decipher the convoluted greedy comp plans, along with Forensic Fraud Accountants, Pyramid Scheme Alert site, all the information on cult awareness, mlm’s, investors, journalists, wall street billionaires involved in spending millions on exposing the industry, and if that isn’t enough….pretty much the world knows now….geez..just READ the unfair and Unconcieable, Contracts… that they want no one to really read. Which is a direct contradiction to everything they mislead with and get others to believe. No one reads those contracts,!

    1) because it is a gazillion pages too long and 2) because they use their slick tactics to keep you distracted…’dreaming’ about getting rich. and firing your Boss…it’s distraction….”:lets get started”… just sign the dotted line .

    So in other words, if you get sucked in today, and don’t know people are being deceived, treated unfair, or you will likely be just like the other 99% plus who never make any real profit, not to mention you will sell your soul, then it is because you don’t have the internet and are living under a rock! Lol.

    But while in, I don’t believe you EVER get told the truth, they are not capable of telling the whole truth…How would they continue to pillage the majority? and unless you are behind closed doors in the Pc meetings, hearing all Orrin’s conversations, are the com plan designer, CPA, or CEO, you won’t get the truth! It’s a perfect… RICO scenario.

    The entire business is based on deception, illusion, lies, cover ups, lawsuits and most importantly, Don’t you dare ask questions to get the truth! And it is exactly why the comp plan’s are confusing and they have a closed “community”, with constant propaganda and must use cult tactics… to keep your brain fried and you spending and knowing the truth!

    And if anyone gets close to truth, and then thinks of exposing it, oh my… they go into panic mode…start to dictate and tell the top leaders, bash, de-edify, send the office workers, and the leaders with influence etc.. to spread it down through their entire teams to carry out their marching orders “the message they want everyone to repeat” hence why they ALL say the same thing…they immediately go into damage control mode. “Use and abuse… marching minions to do their dirty work, and leave them with perfect deniability, no finger prints,,, they go to extreme lengths to sue critics, gag and silence, anyone who threats to expose the real truth ….most if not all MLM sues for ‘copyright’…should be blantanly obvious… what other way do they have…just how desperate they become, their evil and is the cowards way out at the same time they are hammering their followers with “messages” to everyone on the “inside” to buy thousands of dollars of worthless propaganda and even give it away (of course they don’t take that loss) to anyone and everyone!!!! They sue and settle out of court just to hide the truth! Now I see where someone stated, the office has been given marching orders to destroy all Tim and Amy materials….point in case.

    They are so arrogant, expound so much energy on faking and propping up, purchasing, their reputations (collecting a bunch of either fake or rigged or coreced ‘awards’) shout from the mountain tops all their “good *strategic* deeds” , charity…distractions.. etc… Lord only knows how much money they throw away on their PR stunts, by either buying crediblity, coercing it,,or getting it for free… I mean influence…> (with money 🙂 (sounds a lot like politicians, doesn’t it? ..using anyone and everyone. including themselves to brag and constantly promote themselves including demanding edification, etc.

    They are anything. but transparent, are no where by any moral standard about truth..they are all about keeping the followers as confused as possible and hiding the real truth, to the extent of putting it in their contracts… controlling others, including their spouse and family speech! Controlling what websites they can go to, and others like it. It’s astounding to me the lengths they go and live a shameful life of lies.

    It took me years and mostly from being on the outside (I’m slow) and doing so much research and so much reflection to finally see through the lies and deception and just how wicked they are. You have to learn and understand the MLM play book to really know how they work.

    I am grateful to this day, to all of you and others who have made it possible for me to see through the lies and secrecy. It is being truly free! They are the true definition of a “secret” society, and no conspiracy 🙂

  48. Dale permalink
    December 8, 2015 3:25 pm

    Or maybe their business model just didn’t work, and its time to move on to something else. The thing didn’t work. Happens all the time in business. I’m sure they will all live.

  49. December 8, 2015 9:04 pm

    @free4life – so, they aren’t going to be building both businesses? Did you find out anything else about the departures?

  50. Melanie Morgan permalink
    December 8, 2015 11:16 pm

    Or maybe it’s just Karma….

    Noteam and all others, it’s popcorn time! It appears the war has begun. I been expecting this,, because the time has come for the reaping what you sow. .. It’s amusing that Tim is doing exactly what Orrin and Chris did to Q/ Amway and everyone else and sad for all those who they have fooled.

    Thanks for sharing, free4life. Your moniker is interesting. Wonder who’s next? Who will have the most of what they like to believe is true “leadership influence” ,,,,remember Orrin bragging about how great tho leadership and influence is and many followed him out of Q/Amway?….Not true leadership….coercion….false promises and who’s flashes the most $, coercing those by how much money is “in it for them”

  51. Rascal Teamster permalink
    December 9, 2015 3:29 am

    I was told a couple days ago that all of Tim’s groups had left. Darkangelos, Cullen’s, and Newtons as well. That’s a sizable chunk of the group. My downline who told me he would build both businesses was either jumping to conclusions or was mislead by Junior Moral Compass, Mark Paul.

    I was told that one of the things that irked Tim and Amy was the Hamiltons gaining favor at Orrin and Laurie’s table. Apparently Mr. and Mrs. Moral Compass no longer have the largest group, and that honor belongs to Claude and Lana.

    Now would all you Teamie Weenies like to explain to me again how Bill Lewis owned his own business? We own a couple retail stores, and I’ve never unlocked the door in the morning to realize that half my product got up from the shelves in the middle of the night and walked out. The only way that could ever happen is if someone stole it. Hey…wait a minute…..

  52. Rascal Teamster permalink
    December 9, 2015 4:12 am

    While I had been told that all of the groups left, this website still works.

    I guess we’ll know for sure when this link no longer works. Keep an eye on their personal websites.

  53. Caleb Jackson permalink
    December 9, 2015 8:19 am


    I left life back in october after the major conference in chattanooga, tn. They said they were making it easier for the little guys to make money but it just seemed they were making the point levels higher so that people could look like they were doing more without actually paying them more.

    As far as Tim, he’s creating a new system, there’s some legal messes right now that apparently haven’t been resolved yet so everyone is hoping to start “insert new product here” by feb.

    I’m not going to join the train of people bashing this whole system, it didn’t work for me, i already own my own business and trying to find time and effort to grow a team, mentor a team, and then help those people do the same is just too much work for me. Nobody at life ever treated me unfairly, and the system does work for a select few, it just isn’t something that i’ll ever be interested in again. Besides, why would i want to accomplish a goal just to go to Tim’s house on his huge boat and catch marlin that he just intends to hang on a wall in his garage, seems pompous and unnecessary to me.

    I’ll keep you up to date on the facts i’m hearing as i’m getting it pretty close to the actual source.

  54. freedomhaha permalink
    December 9, 2015 9:04 am

    Dale- “Or maybe their business model just didn’t work, and its time to move on to something else. The thing didn’t work. Happens all the time in business. I’m sure they will all live.”

    The difference between a real business and TEAM is that when LIFE collapses it devastates thousands of families in addition to the hundreds of thousands that it has already left in its wake. Yes, when a real business closes lots of people lose their job, but what a real company promises is different than the noise coming from TEAM. Orrin and Co. used rhetoric that did not allow them to say anything other than “this is the best thing of all time”. If a shoe company closes we miss out on the shoes that made not ripping out the dreams from people’s lives.

    I think they should all be in jail, but I would settle for not having any type of platform to corrupt others as a start.

  55. Rascal Teamster permalink
    December 9, 2015 9:28 am

    Nice post, Freedom. Isn’t it interesting how they are able to convince people that in an MLM you own your own business when the obvious reality is that these businesses break up all the time? If you are in Tim’s team, and you happen to like leadership as a product, you either leave with them or be left behind by them. Almost sounds like a hostage situation, doesn’t it?

    Caleb, thanks for the update. We appreciate the information you are sharing. You are correct that the system only works for a select few. I believe it was less than 3% according to their last decipherable IDS.

  56. noteam permalink
    December 9, 2015 10:02 am

    This was posted by Laura Darkangelo on Facebook on Dec. 2 at 10:16am –

    “Sometimes life’s journey takes unexpected turns. We can trust in Gods plan and our own instincts and round that corner with confidence and enthusiasm or stand in the middle of the track clinging to the comfort zone that stops us from moving forward!! Change isn’t easy but staying the same may get you run down by a speeding train:) “

  57. noteam permalink
    December 9, 2015 10:31 am

    Also, someone posted a video on Joe Darkangelo’s FB page on Oct. 23 of the Major in TN. They do a pan of the crowd. Whoa!!!!!! Talk about a HUGE dip in numbers!!!!! This is smaller than Orrin had back in 2003-2004! A VERY small arena with the stage taking up almost 1/3 of it. The rest of the arena is definitely not filled and it is not a big arena. I’d be surprised if they had 5,000 people in that place.

  58. udonome permalink
    December 9, 2015 1:49 pm

    here’s a link to a testimonial that appears to have been written by Robert Dickie which includes the term “moral compass”. coincidence?

  59. exTEAMster permalink
    December 9, 2015 4:34 pm

    This is going to be a real test of the “leadership is our product” mantra. Everyone who has any organization of significant size (what we’re once known as Roundtable Members) built most of that depth by selling consumable products, whether it was Amway or MonaVie. Four years after declaring LIFE would be at a million members in five years, it’s pretty obvious to any of those Roundtable types that the March to a million just ain’t happening. So do they keep spinning their wheels with LIFE or get in “on the ground floor” with whatever Marks is doing?

  60. Melanie Morgan permalink
    December 9, 2015 5:15 pm


    I am not following, unless you are hinting to something else? What does Bobbie D. referencing Kevin T. as having a moral compass, to Tim Marks being the moral compass?

    exTeamster~ good point- Life clearly isn’t working and never was or going to a million. Orrin didn’t even believe it, it’s another delusion…. I mean vision lol…mis leader trying to fake others into believing he is a visionary, lol.

  61. Melanie Morgan permalink
    December 9, 2015 6:41 pm


    Amen buddy!

    Rascal you keep me laughing. 😀

  62. Dale permalink
    December 9, 2015 10:28 pm

    I spent a couple years going business to business, doing the quick in & out approach, sold over 200 people into health insurance, dental insurance & other products, all residual income. Rather than be a prisoner to names lists, which I hate from years of failing in mlm, I learned to sell to strangers. I broke every rule in the book. People don’t care about your dream, the company your with, or your guru. They only care about do you or do you not have what they want/need. Its hit 100 doors get 2,3 interested prospects, move on. Do it an hour or two a day for 2 1/2 years, and I can promise you will eventually build something. You don’t need ‘skills’. You just need to have a friendly attitude, ask one simple question, sort them quickly, and get the hell out of there. You can use this approach for selling anything you believe in. Screw the friends and family crap. Sitting for 2 hours trying to ‘make a friend’ is a complete waste of time. These mlm people are brainwashed. The simple fact is I have kicked almost all their asses just being smart, and using common sense. Time to break out & be free. Free of corporate America, free of mlm b.s. and their nonsense. Just you, the good Lord, and unlimited amounts of people everywhere. Its putting into action the Biblical principle of sewing and reaping. Sew thousands of seeds, be a servant at heart, and just listen. It works.

  63. December 9, 2015 10:52 pm

    Melanie, good point.

    @udonome – that is Joincidence with a “J.” I am not following that logic either.

    At the end of the day, this is one fun show to watch. I just need some more popcorn to sit back and watch this whole sharada implode. Orrin is such a douche canoe…I thought he was going to a million people? How is that going for him? Isn’t there a count down clock for that? He had to be a little off if they are only at 5,000 people for majors. They were at 20+ thousand back when I left.

  64. noteam permalink
    December 10, 2015 7:54 am

    From Rob Robson’s FB page “I feel beyond blessed to be a part of this amazing brotherhood! Being part of Life Leadership’s Policy Council has been the biggest motivator in our journey” Does this mean he is now PC? Could just be making a reference to being associated with them. But sounds like he is announcing PC recognition. If so, how pathetic. Numbers are at an all-time low and somehow they break a new PC? Did they move some numbers from Tim Mark’s group? Could this have influenced why Tim left? Rob Robson was never a part of Orrin’s original group. Orrin stole him from Lennon Ledbetter.

    Once again, this could just be a wrong interpretation of verbiage. He may not actually be a PC.

  65. Rascal Teamster permalink
    December 10, 2015 8:49 am

    Noteam, PC is a weird thing, because I no longer have any idea what it means.

    I remember watching Chris Mattis get his PC ring. Tears in his eyes as he talked about the dream home he bought Denae.

    Here’s a screenshot of a Google search for “Chris Mattis Policy Council.”

    Here’s a screenshot of an image of his PC day.

    Why have we never seen Chris Mattis listed as a Founder of Life and a PC on any Team material or website, even tho he referenced himself as one? Are there levels of PC and Founder? Was PC taken away from him?

    The same thing for Mark Huber. I watched him and Anna get their rings. Do the same search for the Huber’s and PC, and the same results come up…PC and Life Founder. Now his LinkedIn profile says he’s a consultant to Life.

    Was this a Team Shuffle? Shuffle them into Huber’s team, give him a ring, and then a cushy consultant job in exchange for his groups? How the hell did he make PC when I can’t name one of his leaders?

    I can’t explain what’s going on, or what it means to be PC or even a Life Founder anymore, but the FTC would have a field day trying to decipher all the Team crap.

  66. exTEAMster permalink
    December 10, 2015 5:04 pm

    Policy Council and Roundtable are no longer titles in LIFE. Terms like Coordinator and Life Coach are now among those used for the higher levels but I don’t know the exact hierarchy. As for Chris Mattes he was recognized as a new PC at the first major I ever went to in Columbus.The next major I went to he didn’t appear on stage with the PC members even though I saw him at event. Then a year or two later he was back to PC. Very odd. Apparently he didn’t hit his quotas after that initial PC recognition?

  67. Melanie Morgan permalink
    December 10, 2015 5:07 pm


    Haha…good to see ya again. 😀

    Hey guys this might help solve the mystery 😉 here you can find a picture of the current PC just put Dec. 8.. @ Dan Hawkin’s twitter link: , looks like it came from Chris Brady Instagram.

    Rob R. and Thierry who’s team were they on?… seem to be the “new” ones. But where’s the rest of the Waldo’s? haha..

    It appears someone was playing a game of “color me gone”…Kirk Birtles, Holger Speiwak,,Tim Marks, Chris Mattis…and who ever else that they showcased as being a supposed PC, . not found in that picture?. Maybe they just didn’t have a wide angle lens and couldn’t get them ALL in? Other than the 2 new ones minus all the other ones, it seems nothing has changed in oh what couple decades?

    I am not sure what “PC” means either but isn’t Chris Brady and employee? Why would he be in the picture with the PC?

    Funny how it seems everyone is blinded to the fact. and doesn’t use any common sense…but why is Chris Brady as an employee and “building the business”? He is then a quitter, he appears quit long before Tim…

    How do people not see?

  68. exTEAMster permalink
    December 10, 2015 5:11 pm

    I am of the opinion that one of the reasons LIFE has changed award levels and comp plan payouts so frequently is so any prospects who look at the IDS and question why the numbers look so bad can be told “Well those numbers are from the old comp plan. We’ve changed it so it’s much better and easier to make money.”

  69. Melanie Morgan permalink
    December 10, 2015 5:16 pm


    Thanks, didn’t see your comments, but why are they still referring to PC… in the link I just put up? P,C stood for Policy counsel…they must be the smart guys that come up with them there policies. You know the ones you can manipulate the LOS and all…just a guess.. lol

  70. Melanie Morgan permalink
    December 10, 2015 5:17 pm


    Did you get or they give out a Current 2015 IDS?

  71. exTEAMster permalink
    December 10, 2015 5:28 pm

    Well I guess PC is still a title but it was taken off the award levels chart. Must be an invitation only club nowadays.

  72. Melanie Morgan permalink
    December 10, 2015 5:37 pm


    :I agree, you don’t need years of propaganda and learned manipulation tactics, to sell anything. It is very simple…as you said.

    Simple formula:

    Have a product that is legit and people want or need.
    Work at Finding your customers,
    Don’t cut throat to get them.
    Follow the Golden Rule .
    Don’t be greedy and cheat people, and Be HONEST.

    No one needs years and years and tens of thousands of dollars in CD’s or deceptive marketing or manipulation skills….no one likes a slimy manipulative salesman, who all know are selling them a line of BS…. to sell their a product.

  73. Melanie Morgan permalink
    December 10, 2015 5:41 pm


    “As far as Tim, he’s creating a new system, there’s some legal messes right now that apparently haven’t been resolved yet so everyone is hoping to start “insert new product here” by feb.”

    What legal messes is Tim in?

    I respect your comments but make no mistake, it is rigged and unfair. Have you read the contract you signed?

  74. Rascal Teamster permalink
    December 10, 2015 6:03 pm


    Turbo 25, Roundtable, and Policy Council have never been found on any comp plan. They were not Amway, Mona Vie, or Life ranks. They were Team ranks based on system count.

    There was never a Team Comp plan. They were just levels that every one understood….kind of. Well, we understood how to reach the level, but figuring out what money you deserved to be paid based on your system count was futile at best.

    They say there was a formula, but they (your upline Roundtable) would never tell you what the formula was. Turns out they didn’t know either. I remember overhearing my Roundtable mentioning that their monthly system bonus was much less this pay period even though their group hadn’t changed a bit. I would think that legally, the more product you sell, the more money you make.

    They have been phasing out the Team ranks over the past few years as quick as they could. Life is nothing more than the old system business turned into a comp plan, and there’s obviously no money in it.

    Mark and Jenn Paul have won something the past three majors called the Retail Top Gun, which is handed out to the team who retails the most Financial Fitness Packs. Isn’t it odd that they busted so much ass selling that pack, but yet their profit was not enough to keep them with Life??? I find that fascinating!?! I’m sure the whole time, the Life Coaches were pontificating how great Life is when you retail product.

    Wouldn’t it be fun to Mark and Jenn’s acceptance talk??? OMG make popcorn and buckle up for safety. Knowing what I know now, this would be like one of those rides at Universal Studios.

  75. Melanie Morgan permalink
    December 10, 2015 6:20 pm



    Great points. You wonder just how many of those are truly sold to “bonafide customers” buying the Financial Fitness Pack I believe at a whoppin 280 bucks!?

    Oh, and the problems they have, what will they do now if Mark and Jenn are in fact leaving, and following Tim, they have no one to fulfill the “fitness” cog on their wheel will it just fall off now?…

  76. Melanie Morgan permalink
    December 10, 2015 6:25 pm


    What is the amount of money it was costing you per month to participate? And if you had a team what is the majority spending every month in your group?

  77. exTEAMster permalink
    December 10, 2015 7:16 pm


    As far as the IDS, the latest version is found at the end of the Compensation Plan given to prospects. It covers Sept. 2014 thru Aug. 2015. The two numbers that jump off the page: 55 pct of all members quit after one year, while 44 pct received no income at all. (By the way, the highest level you can now reach is Life Coach, and within the Life Coach level the highest level you can reach is something called Crown Ambassador Life Coach)

    As far as my TEAM/LIFE expenses, it was around $250 per month for subscriptions, not to mention the occasional purchase of tools, open meeting and seminar costs, and (of course) what we spent to attend about five or six majors. We figured we were about $9,000 in the red when we put a stop to it. We got as far as starting a second leg but that fizzled out pretty quick so I don’t have a good recollection of what our signups were spending in total.

  78. Melanie Morgan permalink
    December 10, 2015 7:52 pm


    Thank you for your answers.

    Yes, what I found after 13 plus years trusting these untrustworthy TOP people, is: it is a good ole boys club and they aren’t even close to what they pretend to be.

    It is simple: IF and only IF you build it BIG and they see you as someone that will do Everything and anything, worshiping and not questioning, then you might have a shot at being let in but even then, at anytime they can take your business away. see their contract:

    The last I knew *(have they changed that contract, and/or have you read it?). It says at “their discretion (meaning for ANY reason) including you “embarrassing them”?….crazy… they can and will take your business. People have to understand this, what they say in their hyped up system, is not congruent with what they do..

    You do not own anything. They also can manipulate your group and because they do not tell you the formula of how you are paid, then you can safely conclude they can change or manipulate that also. Which I have reason to believe they did when I was in.

    It’s all crazy to me know.

    It is not a residual income based business, you have to “work” forever…. the rest of your life (see contract) in order to continue to get paid…so the retirement is BS. Look at what just happened, with Tim M., he was downline from Bill Lewis, now Bill just took a HUGE pay cut and has to replace probably thousands of people.

    In other words there are NO safe guards at all, and I know when you are in, it is fogging, and your brain is fried on their propaganda, but Think about. YOU and everyone else are in direct competition with everyone, including the TOP that have special deals, your own downline and upline!! Yet they continually bash Corporate Jobs, using that to make them sound “different” and better as if they offer you a better life? When in reality they worse, much worse, than a corporate job. Why did Chris Brady take a “corporate job?”

    Nothing is as it seems inside of their closed off world.

  79. Melanie Morgan permalink
    December 10, 2015 8:02 pm

    BTW~ 55% of ALL members QUIT every year. That is a gerbil wheel if I have ever heard of one. Over half of your group you must replace year after year after year (and that is if they are being completely honesty about that number, which I would never trust anything they say without proof).

    People wake up! The dream….spend, spend, spend, spend. and replace!?

    Orrin bragged the first year LIFE (only because they once again made everyone PAY and re-register into their “new/same old business” that made it “appear” as if they “exploded” but Orrin then bragged it was “only 40%” drop out rate…now hmmm… got worse.

    It is a pop and drop like all MLM.

  80. Rascal Teamster permalink
    December 10, 2015 8:03 pm

    It must be an epidemic of people hitting levels and then dropping off the chart. I also remember Wayne and Raylene McNamara hitting PC and getting their rings.

    Orrin talks about it in his leadership blog on January 29, 2013.

    Has anyone seen Wayne and Raylene standing with the PCs on stage?

    Seems hard to believe that anyone would leave this business with the amount of recognition going around, doesn’t it?

    Hey Truthslayer, you are aware that Mr Moral Compass was part of the Policy Council at the time of all these shenanigans, correct? I notice that Mr. Compass has never spoken out about any of this. Come on, Tim, do the right thing. Apologize to everyone, claim Whistle Blower Status and blow the lid off this facade.

  81. freedomhaha permalink
    December 11, 2015 7:21 am

    I can’t imagine being someone like Bill Lewis who had grown accustomed to having a certain income then you wake up the next day and it is all gone because one guy walked away. Now I don’t feel bad for Bill because any of those guys getting up to that level know the truth and have failed to act. However, it is just insane that such a thing could happen. More proof that this is far from a real business.

    Rascal- I hope that Tim does the right thing as well and exposes everything. Chris used to say from stage that this would make an awesome movie some day if everyone knew the truth. Write the book that people actually want to read Tim, and help thousands of people in the process.

  82. Dale permalink
    December 11, 2015 1:26 pm

    I don’t believe Orrin has evil intentions against anyone. The crappy business model he learned (and financially succeeded in) is all he and Brady knows. MLM is all they know. It becomes cognitive dissonance, Something becomes so ingrainied into you, you just can’t question it, which is why trusting anything or anyone to that extreme is so dangerous. The very center bible verse is Psalm 118:8 ” It is better to trust in the Lord than to put confidence in man”. Ultimately man will fail you. I no longer “follow” anyone. I listen to men, but I don’t “follow” them. I put into actions biblical principles, and rely on my Heavenly Father to provide. There is no other way.

  83. Rascal Teamster permalink
    December 11, 2015 5:49 pm

    Dale, your last comment is dead on. As Orrin has said numerous times, “trust in God. All others must have data.” Trust but verify is a good philosophy.

    But I’m going to disagree with your first statement. Confucius say, “he who believes Orrin harbors no ill toward anyone, never walked with him through the desert.”

    Might I suggest Orrin’s CD, “Goliath is calling.” To the new guy who got in, that CD was all about conquering Giants. But to those of us from the Q, that was Orrin referring to himself as David and slaying the giants, DeVos and VanAndle. The numerous talks on stage and the backhand remarks…we knew to whom his daggers were aimed. Need I also mention the countless blog articles and the lines he crossed during the lawsuit.

    Oh and lest we forget how he handled Randy Haugen leaving. Traitors they were. On my gosh, I almost forgot how he handled Pastor and Bobby Dickie.

    Dale, were you aware that Mark and Anna Huber recorded a private conversation they had with Pastor Dickie and gave the tape to Orrin who used it out of context against Pastor from a Team stage? Yeah, that really happened.

    Damn, and then there’s the lawsuit against Raquel Peters. I know, I know that was Eric Bloomdahl suing her. Oh my butt, that’s Orrin behind the wheel of that lawsuit.

    And that’s why I bought a 6 month supply of popcorn. Knowing how Orrin handled every other person who got in his way, I anticipate more of the same loving kindness toward Tim and his cronies. There will be ill will toward his fellow man.

    Now…sssssshhhhhh….the show’s about to start.

  84. noteam permalink
    December 12, 2015 10:38 am

    Regarding Bill Lewis…. I’d be willing to bet his income actually just went up. From what I’ve heard, the groups of Tim Marks that stayed with LIFEscam all moved up and are saying their upline is Lewis now. So, the portion of scam profits Orrin & Tim were splitting are now being split with Orrin & Bill. Obviously, Orrin gets the bulk. But I’m sure there is a huge payoff to Bill for his loyalty 🙂

    Also, regarding the retail sales of Mark & Jenn Paul…….I’ve come across several places on the web including a sponsored link of FB which was selling their Financial Matrix crap. I wouldn’t be surprised if Orrin & Chris have a private retail site and funnel those sales through selected individuals to have a token person to brag about on stage as someone who sold dozens of Financial packs at retail.

  85. Rascal Teamster permalink
    December 12, 2015 1:33 pm

    Noteam, if you ever come across that again, screen shot it. I’d love to have a copy of that. Of course members would be told that all of those sales would go into the pool and be spit among all profit sharers, but who would be the wiser if the numbers were given to someone else? Orrin had always talked about opening the system up to the World and all profit sharers reaping the harvest, so anyone who’s a profit sharer would be pumped about this.

    You are correct that Bill would see a bump in income. Tim’s tap root would stay directly under Bill where it always had, but what would become of all Tim’s side legs? It doesn’t matter to anyone above Bill where those legs are placed. It’s all down volume. However if you were to take a few of those side legs and move them to Bill’s side legs, Bill would really see a bump in income. Moving from Tim’s side to Bill’s side would ‘t effect those lines either, except that are happy they are part of a much larger group. Heck, they could even be placed as stand alone side legs of Bill.

    Wonder where Tim’s side legs went?

  86. noteam permalink
    December 12, 2015 4:27 pm

    Rascal – Could this be where Mark & Jenn Paul got all their retail sales from?

    Also, do a search on Facebook for The Financial Matrix.

    I thought advertising was against their P & P. Hmmmmm

  87. Rascal Teamster permalink
    December 12, 2015 6:11 pm

    Noteam, that could be entirely possible regarding the Paul’s retail numbers. No one would be the wiser.

    As far as their Policies and Procedures manual prohibiting the online sales of products, you bring up an interesting point. If all of the founders are business owners making money off of their Life downline, they are governed by the same P&P. It would seem to me that they are not following the rules. I’m unsure whether or not the P&P reserves the right to sell online to the Life Corp or not.

    That’s another gray, muddy, legal loophole…I mean mess.

  88. Dale permalink
    December 13, 2015 3:35 pm

    I think men look to pick fights with something or someone. Its in our very nature. We are all slinging arrows right now. We all want to be right. I am become convinced only Christ is right at all times and no one else deserves to be ‘followed’ unquestionably. I am starting to see how this world is just falling apart because Christ is not at the center of peoples lives. All this other crap is. Man, the more it goes on, the simpler I want to make my life. Whew! Time to rest in Him, pray for those who persecute you, and spitefully use you. All men do it. All of us. We are all sinners. Pray for Orrin, Tim and everyone else. We all desperately need it. Thank God there was someone who walked this earth who was perfect and gave us His word. Sure glad He did.

  89. freedomhaha permalink
    December 14, 2015 6:26 am

    Dale- Don’t forget to pray for the victims of this scam.

  90. Brian Smith permalink
    December 14, 2015 11:21 pm

    @Dale: I agree with you, everybody is slinging arrows right now and Christ is the only truth to cling to. Much of what I am reading here is garbage and a many things are simply not true. Many of the posts I am reading here don’t seem to have much credibility- many seem to be bitter about their experiences from 5-10 years ago (old news). Other writers seem to find pleasure in attacking other people here. Leviticus 19:16 … ‘nuf said.

    @Caleb: How long were you a part of Life leadership? The reason I ask is that your comments contain some very precise details about ownership percentages that I don’t think are public knowledge. How could you possibly know that Tim had 11% ownership? This is highly suspicious to me. Life is a private company and is not required to disclose these details. Therefore, you are either 1. Pulling these numbers out of your ass, or 2. Somebody in your old up-line leaked some data to you for a specific purpose.

    Either way, you are very mis-informed and I think readers need more clarification on this matter. So you must be both new and being used as a pawn. As for me, I have been in business with all 3 of these guys for many years and I know them pretty well. I have recently been at their events the last few months and talked to many people that know Orrin, Chris and Tim very well. What I do know is this: Tim has every right to leave amicably and start his own “Quixtar, Only Better!” (QOB) MLM Company. Period. If Tim thinks that he is smarter than Orrin (and the rest of the policy council group and their lawyers), then he is free to do this and let the marketplace be the judge. The last time I checked, we are still (somewhat) free to start new businesses in America.

    With all due respect @Caleb and @Teamster, you are also mis-informed on this notion that Chris Brady owns and profits from the production company that prints the books. This is completely false! Life leadership created it and owns it and puts all of the profits back into the Life compensation plan, just like everything else. This runs under the same profit sharing deal as the rest of the company. There is no conflict of interest and no special deals – they created a publishing company because the larger publishing houses took too long to print and took too many royalties that could be kept in the Life compensation plan. There is no conflict of interest, just smart business.

    The next item you are mis-informed on is the notion that Orrin somehow uses his majority stake in Life Leadership to bully the other Policy Council members. This is unfair to guys like Tim. Your comments make it sound like Tim is a pouty baby that left because he didn’t get his way. I don’t believe that is what happened. In all of my years that I have known these guys, I have never heard of them actually voting on anything. They discuss important items and only move on an idea when everybody had buy-in. Orrin seems to get the harshest criticism because at the end of the day, somebody needs to make a final decision. Whenever Tim launches QOB, he will have to talk to his guys and then be the one to shoulder the tough decisions. That’s just how things work!

    Anyways, to answer the original post, here are the details that I heard: Tim presented his ideas about a product business to the entire PC not long ago. Then, the Life Leadership PC and legal staff studied Tim’s proposal for quite some time. Analysis proved that Tim’s idea of switching Life from an educational business to a product business would result in legal risks related to FTC customer requirements, massive reductions in bonuses and require an overhaul in the entire compensation plan. This would also greatly hinder international expansion. I was told that every Policy Council member thought this was a bad idea and decided against it. So instead of respecting the wishes of his peer’s, Tim decided to follow his conviction that he is smarter than the rest of the Policy Council’s combined experience – and part company. Period.

    Why do people need to seek out a negative reason for Tim to do this? I hope both Orrin and Tim will do well. It’s funny how differently positive and negative people think. For example, I have heard that Tim is selling everything he owns to start QOB. His boats, all of his toys and on Zillow it shows that he is selling his house for a million dollars less that what it’s worth. A negative person sees this and concludes that Tim is extremely bad with money and one should be careful going into business with him (especially since Tim was supposedly making millions from Life, why would he have to liquidate and sell his house just to start a new company?) However, a positive person sees that he is liquidating everything so that he can put every last dollar he can into his new business venture. I have nothing against Tim personally, so I choose to believe the positive.

    On another note, I am appalled that on a blog that is trying to figure out what is happening with Tim Marks that some commentors take the opportunity to run other people thru the mud. For example, Bill Lewis has recently gone thru a living hell with the tragic loss of his wife and some of you idiots are taking liberty to run great guys like him thru the mud on this blog – shame on you. @Dale is right, we need to pray for all of these guys (and I will pray for the idiots too).

    Before I go further, I want to re-iterate that I respect Tim as a person and I have always enjoyed listening to his materials and his coarse speaking style. From what I see and hear, I think he is a great husband and father. This commentary is NOT about any moral issues, but a business strategy issue.

    As a business success, I know Tim was very successful 10 years ago in Quixtar. In my opinion, he has done very little since then to make me want to join him in a new enterprise. I have heard some third-party details about Tim’s QOB business and a few rumors about his secret investor. In spite of all of the hype at his secret meetings, I have decided to stay with Life Leadership – let me explain why:

    1. I personally would feel like a traitor to my teammates – a modern day Benedict Arnold. If you read the story about Benedict Arnold, you will discover that he also believed very strongly that he was doing the right thing for his family and his Captains – cutting a financial deal that would benefit himself, his children and his fellow mutineers. Prior to this, history shows that he felt like he carried an unfair load and over time he became bitter because he felt under-appreciated watching other men promoted past him in the chain of command. In the end, Benedict Arnold did not get paid close to what he was promised by the British. None of his brave acts were remembered and he returned to England unheralded. No thanks.

    2. I heard from one of his main guys that Tim’s motivation to leave is that he is tired of his top guys struggling and not getting paid as much as they deserve to. It sounds like Tim is certainly going to fix this. The rumor is that QOB is to be a binary business model. Historical data shows us that less than 5-10% grow both sides of the “binary”, or second leg. So 90-95% will get paid next to nothing in QOB. In other words, his top guys will certainly get paid decent, but the little guy will get screwed. Of course, if he were in financial trouble, a binary would allow him and his top guys to rake in a lot of money in a relatively short period of time. I am nowhere near one of the big leaders, so guess what… No thanks.

    3. I heard that QOB would have a “secret” tool business that will pay bonuses to the top guys (most likely the top 1%) who have 2 legs with 25 “system” subscribers. Again, good news if you are one of Tim’s top guys, this will really ensure a bigger, juicier bonus. As for me, I have a long way to go to get there. I personally think it is wrong to make more money from a “secret tool business” than it is from the primary compensation plan. Isn’t Amway and Quixtar’s history full of lawsuits involving separate tool businesses? So again, no thanks.

    4. I heard that the profit margins would be so low that many people will see a massive cut in pay to have the same size team in QOB. The argument somebody told me is that people will spend more money on consumable products. So this means I would have to spend way more money to make the same or less (or nothing if I don’t have a second leg). No thanks.

    So there is my input. I hope it helps somebody analyze his or her situation without the ranting and character attacks that are common on this blog.

  91. Truly Free from Life permalink
    December 16, 2015 4:26 am

    I respect that you have put together quite a thought line there but I’ll (quickly) point a flaw in your thinking and then the hypocritical nature of the ending. One flaw in your process here is you have state how people are misinformed in the prior posts but you give no proof that they are then offer what is “really” happening with no evidence (i.e. Chris not profiting from book publishing or the percentage ownership in LIFE). Please, if we are all so misinformed then provide us with the proof and I’m sure, given new evidence, we can change our position.
    The largest flaw I find here though is you have accused others of dragging the names of LIFE leaders “through the mud” and attacking their character and then proceed to give points on hearsay which you rallied against above. In your last 4 point you do that to Tim (Benedict Arnold, which is one of Orrin’s most over used examples to smear those who leave). The you also start the last 3 points with “I heard”. Nothing of substance in your entire comment. Please do not take this as a personal attack as I do not know you but this comment is lacking the basic tenets of a proper argument. You have disagreed but offered no reason why we should listen to you.
    Finally, don’t resort to the biblical quote. There are plenty of scam artists who use any religion to trap people and then profit from them. Just because you can quote a bible verse doesn’t mean that it applies to the situation or constitutes any sort of moral victory over your opponent. It just a smoke screen so you don’t have to think of an actual reason.
    Please, next time bring proof and we can question the moral character of any person. In North America you are allowed to hold whatever ideas and beliefs you want and we are also allowed to criticize them in a constructive manner.

  92. noteam permalink
    December 16, 2015 7:19 am

    Truly Free From Life – You caught on to Brian’s post just like I did. Interesting he thinks none of us know the truth, yet somehow he does? 🙂 A lot of us on this site were a whole lot higher in pin status than Brian. We were in some of the closed door meetings and saw more of what really went on behind the scenes. That is, unless Brian is an alias for Orrin or Chris who both regularly read this site and react to it as has been proven in the past.

    Also, one of Orrins manipulative tactics is to always quote scripture during his attacks. In this way he hopes to manipulate people into believing that anyone who disagrees with him is somehow offending God. I believe God is a lot more offended at people like Orrin who use scripture for evil purposes to take advantage of people. How many tens or hundreds of thousands of people have come and gone from TEAM/LIFE and left all their money with Orrin and crew?

    Also, the purpose of this blog is so more innocent people do not get harmed and scammed. TEAM/LIFE always claims that people need more information to make informed decisions. But they get upset when people get information from sources who have seen the dark side of this scam. I wish this site had been around a long time ago. I never would have joined this scam if a site like this had been around to enlighten me. Instead, I wasted years and tens of thousands of direct dollars, not counting the hundreds of thousands of dollars in lost opportunity income I believe I lost as a result of being a top leader with this scam.

  93. Dale permalink
    December 16, 2015 11:15 am

    Whew! Too complicated for me. I have developed a third grade mentality in business. Make phone calls, make money. Sign people into insurance, get paid every month. Recently attended an mlm meeting, got turned off immediately. Doesn’t matter what company or product. Mlm is pretty much the same everywhere. Bunch of smoke and mirrors to keep your eye off the ball of not making any money, so that you keep making THEM money. Hey, its a free country (at least for maybe awhile longer). If you can make that work, and people are honest about it, go for it. The only way to build something in my opinion is a company of your own. Its funny, I see people running from one hampster wheel to the next. At least build your own hampster wheel. Pays alot better. Just my opinion.

  94. Rascal Teamster permalink
    December 16, 2015 12:32 pm

    Dale, you sound just like my buddy who sells Combined Insurance. Every month he talks about that residual mailbox money. And he’ll have it as long as he continues to sell well and stay with the company.

    You talk as if the people on this site are slackers who just sit around all day and bitch on the Amthrax board. The reason many of us lost tens of thousands with Team Orrin is that many of us had tens of thousands to invest. While many of the people who join Life are E employees, many of us were big S business owners. Many of us still are.

    Brian, nice try with the old news jargon. You mentioned that many of this information is 5-10 years old. Yup, sure enough is. Last time I checked, even the court system recognizes the statute of limitations at 7 years. Not to mention that it shows a pattern that’s been happening through many different businesses since the late 90’s. That pattern is still in play today. Sounds pretty relevant.

    What do you mean by old news?

  95. noteam permalink
    December 16, 2015 3:20 pm

    Rascal – You caught on to Brian’s ‘old news’ bit. That’s why I’d be willing to bet Brian is actually an alias for Orrin or Chris. The reason they keep changing the name (Amway, Quixtar, Team of Destiny, Team, Team MonaVie, Team Training, Life Life Training, etc) is so they can always make the claim “Oh that was long ago in another business.” That way the newbies don’t catch on to their pattern. But those of us who have known these clowns for over 2 decades know the truth – it is the same people, the same structure, the same pay plan….just a different name to use for their deceptive purposes.

  96. December 16, 2015 10:03 pm

    Lol @ Brian, trying to slide in as Mr. Low Pin yet giving himself away by dropping inside info and passive-aggressive attacks on Tim.

    If you are indeed a low pin, then shut up. It’s like a 9 yr old lecturing a grown, working man about taxes. You have no perspective, it’s just embarrassing.


    If you are a secret PC or RT poser, then shut up. Keep that 2nd shift grind going and leave us alone, maybe one day you’ll move up to fries.

    Either way, just shut the hell up. And learn the art of brevity. Just because you keep shoving sh*t into a ripped open bag doesn’t mean it all fits.

  97. freedomhaha permalink
    December 17, 2015 6:14 am

    “Also, the purpose of this blog is so more innocent people do not get harmed and scammed.”

    BINGO! So thankful for being free of TEAM.

    Brian- Quick question for you. What percentage of your downline is making a profit?

  98. Dale permalink
    December 17, 2015 8:40 pm

    Rascal Teamster, I’m not like your buddy. I own my book of business as an independent agent. Residuals come in as long as premiums pay. Do other stuff as well. Anyway, I believe strongly that building an mlm is disasterous if you are self employed. Not only did I spend tens of thousands like you, but I also calculated lost tens of thousands in my S business by taking time away from it to build a crap mlm business. By the way residual income is freedom to me, not B quadrant. Most huge B quadrant owners are miserable, divorced and definately a slave (unless they sell it) (see Kyosaki). 99% never make it over the hump in mlm because the time income curve works against you, unless you can hit critical mass. Then your income explodes. I Have a friend of the family who owns an mlm company. It can work. But the demands are brutal, and you have to be relentless, borderline psychotic to make it, almost never be at home for years. The millionaires in mlm just plain don’t tell people the real truth what they really went through to make it. Misery, no family life. I heard Woodward admit once that he and wife regularly had 4 days a week of non-stop visits and weekend and overnight stays of downline. I would absolutely hate doing that, as my family would. No thanks. There are much smarter ways to leverage and build wealth in my opinion, especially with the internet. Anyway lol.

  99. Melanie Morgan permalink
    December 18, 2015 1:40 pm

    @Brian Smith (try being honesty and come on with your real name)

    You must be exhausted after that, quite astounding…. the entire is post riddled with hypocrisy. Try holding a mirror while reading your bible verse. I am sure Tim feels all cozy inside reading your post.

    Beware the pawn you have become in your own game.

  100. noteam permalink
    December 19, 2015 7:20 am

    I have a feeling it’s about to get real interesting in January. I believe Tim is finally about to realize how Orrin treats anyone who does not bow down to him. And I think even the sheep will be shocked this time.

    From what I hear, there’s a bunch of big leaders who have lost faith in Orrin and are ready to leave Orrin and go with Tim.

  101. Jimmy CrackCorn permalink
    December 19, 2015 9:58 pm

    Aka Brian Smith is CJ Calvert roque member of Tims team. Bill Lewis sold him to Cluade Hamilton on the open Market.

  102. Melanie Morgan permalink
    December 20, 2015 6:07 pm

    Jimmy CrackCorn~

    Interesting, that is not who I suspected “Brian Smith” was. And if it is, he sure is putting up a front…posing as Mr. Positive in public, and coming here as “Brian Smith” well, shows quite a different character, but then we all know this is how they are when they “hide”…think QRUSH or ORRIN. They are posers of the worst kind.

    I don’t personally know CJ Calvert, what MLM did he get poached from or did he just leave and get lured into LIfe?

    I did see this though and
    Claude Hamilton Retweeted

    CJ Calvert ‏@CJ_Calvert · Dec 5
    @ClaudeHamilton Forever grateful 4 mentorship of TM. Now excited 2 be w CAB SC4@wayne_macnamara, we’re going SC! We are now Kaizen PALADIN!

    NO SPECIAL DEALS, riiiight! These guys cannot tell the truth to save their souls.

  103. Melanie Morgan permalink
    December 20, 2015 6:36 pm


    Yes indeed. Won’t it be interesting to see the “numbers” @ the major, what do you think? Ought to show some serious backwards growth…that would mean all those who worship O. will most likely be taking a pay cut, sounds like the J.O.B’s they like to bash….hmm.. (expect Orrin of course, )

    Oh the doubt they have created, they won’t recover from this…They will have to pull off a David Copperfield to keep anyone “believing” now. Poor sheep continue to get slaughtered….They can thank their greedy masters for that.

    Can you image the doubt this will create, Tim & Amy and all those other leaders, not going to be playing their parts, at majors, seminars. speaking, hosting, “volunteering”…they haven’t seen the worst of the backwards growth this will eventually cause. Reminder: Doubt is the biggest killer of business, but I would add the TRUTH is what will get them in the end.

  104. Melanie Morgan permalink
    December 20, 2015 7:16 pm

    Jimmy Crackcorn~

    How does that work? Bill Lewis would be allowed to “sell” him to Claude in LIFE? Does this mean that CJ Calvert’s whole team is then given the same opportunity or just forced now to have a different “upline” who was once their “crossline” now becomes their “upline”? How is this an open market and not a “special deal” for Bill Lewis, then?

    Goes to prove that the PC, LIFE Cockroaches or whatever they change the name to, is the only one “controlling” everyone else’s business?

    Again, yet they continue to lie and deceive the masses.. that you can “make more than your upline”, that it’s based on “your performance” and you own/ “control” your supposed passive, residual pipeline..”B” business. That they offer you better than a JOB, what a joke.

    Memo to readers, and followers, wake up! One with a consciences would not willing participate in despicable lie.

  105. Jimmy CrackCorn permalink
    December 20, 2015 10:42 pm

    CJ dowline has no choice in the matter including CJ upline that sponsored him. See in the PandP it says that any Life Coach can make new rules at anytime.
    So Bill Lewis can choose to sell any part of his downline to however he chooses. In this case he sold CJ to Cluade because he lives in Canada and it will help Wayne M go Life coach by giving him a new leg. This helps Orrin point to another person who is exploding the business to convince his followers that it is working.

  106. Melanie Morgan permalink
    December 21, 2015 11:52 am


    I appreciate the dialogue. Thanks for sharing just one of the fundamental problems. “Changing the rules” self enrich…This is a prime example of just how rigged and unfair it is for the masses… from the git-go, everyone, except the PC can manipulate their business to keep them as a “qualified” PC, and as you point out…Orrin can keep the followers falsely :believing’…you could call it the “Carbonaro Effect”. 🙂 Except Carbonaro is cool, and imo, Orrin, well, not so much…just an evil and greedy fraud.

    PandP? Are you referring to the contract signed by all? ( I don’t recall reading that in the contract that was put up here). Or would this be a ‘secret’ contract between the P.C?

    Do you know, how much Bill Lewis “sold” CJ Calvert for?

    Here is another point, based on your knowledge of this case…It’s a poor excuse to “sell” someone because of “location”…that would defy the “business system” itself.

    This also proves that even the P.C. cannot hold their ranks, without manipulation, which hey, we already knew that.

    Memo to all followers: I hope you get it!

    Memo to FTC….you need to up your game!

    Thanks again, Jimmy.

  107. Melanie Morgan permalink
    December 21, 2015 11:58 am

    I know many who would have kicked all their arses, with pure results had it been a “fair game”. It’s also why this manipulation of the LOS is a fraud, and why Orrin can pretend he is king, has had ‘bigger’ results, and NO ONE will be allowed to surpass any of them!

  108. Melanie Morgan permalink
    December 21, 2015 12:02 pm

    One last question, for now 🙂 Who wrote up this PandP?

  109. Melanie Morgan permalink
    December 21, 2015 1:16 pm

    CJ Calvert ‏@CJ_Calvert · Dec 15
    “In 4 ¹/² years, I eliminated $300k of Debt [using the Financial Fitness Pack].” @wayne_macnamara

    Imo, this is a Really, really, clever message.

    Where did he get this “income” to “eliminate” that debt?

  110. Anonymous permalink
    December 21, 2015 3:09 pm

    Maybe the Financial Fitness Pack suggested bankruptcy.

  111. Melanie Morgan permalink
    December 22, 2015 10:39 am

    Why didn’t I think of that? lol…Avoiding responsibility…just

    “follow the leeders”

  112. December 22, 2015 4:26 pm

    Hey Melanie Morgan, I’d like to chat with you, are you on Facebook? 🙂

  113. Freedom4eva permalink
    December 22, 2015 11:01 pm

    Yikes! You guys are some toxic people, you say you’ve quit life years ago but still involved bashing people, yuck. I’m bummed that this is what you guys do for fun. Hope God heals your cold hearts!

  114. anonymous permalink
    December 23, 2015 5:16 pm

    freedom4eva – it’s about making sure that information about Team Life Leadership is on the web. Then anyone who is considering joining Life Leadership and searches the internet will have knowledge from all sides to help them make an informed decision.

  115. Melanie Morgan permalink
    December 23, 2015 7:38 pm

    Melanie Shiell~

    I am on facebook, you can send a PM.

  116. Melanie Morgan permalink
    December 23, 2015 9:02 pm


    “Reality denied comes back to haunt.” …seriously, how do you guys do it?

    To Amthrax, and the rest of you, Merry Christmas & Happy New Year!

  117. Melanie Morgan permalink
    December 23, 2015 11:10 pm

    Hey Melanie Shiell, are you in Life, working with Claude Hamilton or someone on his team?

  118. noteam permalink
    December 24, 2015 12:30 pm

    Freedom4eva – The reason we are on here is to make sure others hear the truth. As major leaders in the organization, we saw what really goes on behind the scenes. We saw the lives devastated, the people driven into bankruptcy, the marriages ruined, the neglected kids. And we saw it over and over and over and over again.

    We all wish a site like this had been around and that we would have known about it sooner. We thought we were the only ones who had doubts. Now we realize that most people of integrity realize the same thing we realized but were afraid to say anything. Instead, many just drifted quietly away without alerting others.

    If you knew people were driving on a road and the bridge ahead had collapsed, would you warn them? Or would you just save yourself????

    Most of us have a hard time sleeping at night realizing the tens of thousands of people who have been scammed by these crooks and continue to be scammed. What goes on behind the scenes is not the virtue parroted on stage. This is a crooked, dishonest group of people who are literally devasting lives and we refuse to look the other way.

  119. Dale permalink
    December 24, 2015 1:37 pm

    The stuff you guys are talking about happens with almost all mlm’s, not just Life. I realized after selling insurance that there’s no way you can be successful talking to 15 people a week in anything. In any business, you have to start out making Hundreds of phone calls every week, take rejection from 90% of who you speak to, sort whats left & turn a few of them into actual sales (yes, mlm is sales despite the people who don’t believe they are in sales because they are told they’re not). BUT, if people BUY products, talk to a small handful of people every week, recruit a few people, they then become locked in as REVENUE for the company and its top leaders. They ALL do this crap. If people were just simply told the truth on what it really takes, how much they will have to spend/invest, I don’t think there would be all these pissed off bloggers. Sucks. But I just explained the realities of the industry. But, instead of being bitter, waste too much time and energy, go succeed in something else. Orrin or other leaders aren’t going to change anything. Just like the government, once the money starts flowing in, the thinking becomes skewed, and realities are ignored.

  120. noteam permalink
    December 24, 2015 4:14 pm

    Dale – it is not a matter of success or failure, or of the law of averages. Other mlm’s are not this dishonest. Yes, other mlm’s have a low law of averages. However, this is a matter of blatant deception on the part of Orrin and the other PC members. This is the most crooked organization I have ever met in my life.

  121. freedomhaha permalink
    December 25, 2015 8:26 am

    Dale- Just because other people are doing it doesn’t mean that it shouldn’t be stopped.

    Freedom4eva- You completely missed the entire point of this site. A good amount of people that post on here feel a duty to stop others from falling into the same scam that we helped perpetuate for years. This blog helped save me tens of thousands of dollars as well as get many relationships back. The least I can do I post truths on here to help other people that are in the same position I was.

  122. Dale permalink
    December 26, 2015 2:37 am

    Any time you walk into a company with almost zero customers, surprise! YOU are the customer! Kiyosaki summed it up: an asset puts money INTO your pocket, a liability takes money OUT. Its ironic his books get sold thru mlm companies, who take money OUT of your pocket, hardly ever in. Its all screwed up man. Time for the people of the United States to return to its roots: Christ and freedom. This abuse of people economically is a result of an ever increasing system of inflation and heavy taxation. I do totally agree with Orrin on the Financial Matrix. If you have the cahuna’s, read “The Creature From Jekyll Island” by G. Edward Griffin. The depth of abuse, sin, and deception with money goes much deeper than you think. Its just a reflection of the sinful nature of man. “The LOVE of money is the root of all kinds of evil”. It drives men to abuse and use to no end. We can attack the branches all day. Its about going after the ROOT: the sinful nature of mens’ hearts. Yours and mine included. As long as the truth of Christ is pushed aside for all other world views, this crap will continue. But remember, one day “For the earth shall be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea”. Psalm 1 secures the path of the righteous, and the end of the ungodly. Period. Every sinner will give an account. No one gets away with anything. “The eyes of the LORD are in every place, beholding the evil and the good”

  123. LAconfidential permalink
    December 26, 2015 7:17 am


    “I pick up what you’re laying down”, and you are missing the point.

    Christ called the Pharisees whitewashed walls, because they were
    Paul confronted Peter for his hypocrisy at Antioch, because he was acting like one

    I can give chapter and verse if you like.

    Both “attacked” the branches while addressing the root.
    The problem is, what?

    Many of us have stepped out from the picture. We see with new eyes and hear with new ears.
    We discern with additional information not always gathered on this site, along with our personal experiences.
    We come to this site with the information we have and we share it

    It is up to the information gatherer to read and discern for themselves.

    You don’t have to like it.

  124. The Muffin Man permalink
    December 26, 2015 8:20 am

    Dale you are a sheep bud. There will always be a Financial Matrix. There have been Financial Matrix since the beginning of time. That will never go away do to sin period. Orrin wants you to stop giving your money to the Financial matrix and give it to the Life Matrix with a lousy complan that he says is the best in the industry. It’s is the best because it pays Orrin and Chris the most and all of the life sheep are ok with paying for their lifestyle while their leaders live in crapy houses and drive crapy cars. While Orrin and Chris live in mansions and own airplanes and yachts not a bad deal for them. Life leadership is a door to door sales model to sell Chris and Orrin Materials. The top earners in Life outside Orrin and Chris are nothing more than glorified salesman. That have developed a skill set that most people can never duplicate. I think Tim and his leaders left because they saw the writing on the wall no one makes money in Life Leadership but the owners.
    The top leaders are making the same as a normal job putting in thousands of hours and effort that never sustains. They would have been better off keeping there 9-5 jobs and spent more time with there family than building a B type Business for Orrin and Chris.

  125. Dale permalink
    December 27, 2015 10:39 am

    Dear Muffin Man, outside of the sheep comment, I agree. If you met me and knew me, the last thing I am is a sheep, a lemming follower. I’m not in Life Leadership. I was simply making a point. Its very childish and immature to discount EVERYTHING Orrin says and does, and dismiss it and him as all bad. Thats the same one-dimentional immature crap that people do in politics. He’s just one guy. If we all would have made money in his company, these blogs wouldn’t even exist. But we didn’t, we all had thousands sucked out of our bank accounts until the fog cleared. And Orrin, Chris and other PC guys may not realize they walked out of corporate America and slowly built their own prison. I find that two things make people unhappy and leave when working somewhere: 1) they aren’t making money 2) bad relationships. Often both go hand in hand. As open enrollment winds down, and my current industry door slams for the next 9 months from being able to sell, I have been looking around alot at different companies and models, and have discovered the old corporate america is no more. The old, dead model of show up at 8am or else, suit & tie (yuck!), prick managers making your life miserable, seems to all be dead and gone. Flex time, show up in jeans, roller blades. Wow! What a difference. I haven’t had a ‘job’ in 15 years. But I am starting to like what I see: happier people who actually like where they work. If that was the norm, these crappy mlm models would not survive. Anyway lol.

  126. December 27, 2015 2:12 pm

    Dale: what’s your overall point?

    You first denounce all MLMs (agreed) and give details about your successful insurance business that you’ve built the hard way (fine). We got it the first time.

    But if you haven’t at least achieved mediocrity in LIFE/Scamway/Whatever it is this month, I’m not sure what your posts are adding to this discussion.

    You go from complete rejection of all MLMs to mentioning that MLMs do work because your neighbor owns one.

    You also implicitly defend Orrin’s intentions.

    Do you not see the commonality? Yes, all Ponzi schemes work for the guy at the top. If you start an MLM, you know that outside of you, your cronies, and maybe some of your cronies’ cronies, no one will make a serviceable living.

    In other words, if you start an MLM, 1) you know you’re going to screw people and 2) you suck. And to tie back the original post, Tim is unequivocally a master in both 1) and 2).

  127. Bryant permalink
    December 27, 2015 5:54 pm

    I am honestly confused here… many of you claim to be a “Christian” and “adults” but have you seriously looked at the words, and heart behind them and or your points? It’s 25% hilarious, 25% sad and 50% hypocritical… anyway since everyone here knows everything has anyone found out exactly what Tim is doing???

  128. Dale permalink
    December 27, 2015 10:37 pm

    My point is what I said. I Took a hard look. Primerica and couple other insurance mlms are about the only ones not TAKING peoples money with recruiting and products, meetings. I actually MADE some money with them selling term insurance, products people actually need without having to hype it. Mlm is a great idea on paper. Very few companies actually make it work properly without screwing over people. So don’t throw away the baby with the bath water. Its actually possible to have both a good company in a bad industry (because of the crappy ones ruining it), and a bad company in a good industry (Enron etc). Looking for SOLUTIONS to help myself and others, not just complain about what a bad business something is.

  129. December 29, 2015 9:07 pm

    I did learn a lot of great info to use in life and made some personal friends from it too. I did receive a lower payment from LIFE and noticed that the payment percentage was lower from 50 to 33% for the top level for one group. Maybe the company cannot afford all it is giving.

  130. noteam permalink
    December 30, 2015 5:12 pm

    Getting back on topic. Sounds like it’s about to get real interesting. Apparently, a bunch of the old leaders are sick of Orrin and choosing to go with Tim. From what I here they have been having meetings with their groups telling them they are having a LIFE meeting. Then when everyone is there showing the business plan for Tim’s new business and talking about how much better it is than LIFE. Also, sounds like Tim’s kickoff weekend is scheduled the same weekend as Orrin’s Jan. 22-24 Major Function. This could get interesting!!!

    Also heard Tim is offering Founders positions to any leader who comes with him.

    What goes around, comes around. What Orrin did to Dexter could finally be happening to him 🙂 I’m hoping all this information is correct. We’ll find out by the end of Jan.

  131. Matt permalink
    December 30, 2015 11:05 pm

    Hey we should all sign up now so we can hold our spot! And they’ll just keep building underneath us. Passive income son!

    Gettin in on the ground level baby!


  132. Anonymous permalink
    December 31, 2015 9:29 am

    noteam – what is Tim selling? How does his plan differ from most other MLMs to have a better than 1% success rate? Or is this just another MLM which is doom to fail for 99% of its people?

  133. Anonymous permalink
    December 31, 2015 9:55 am

    Also, what is the name of Tim’s new venture?

  134. noteam permalink
    December 31, 2015 10:34 am

    Anonymous – Haven’t heard a name yet. From what I have heard, they will have access to some Proctor & Gamble products as well as some partner stores (ie Target, etc). They claim they will have much better pricing than Amway had.

    Not sure how much of everything I’ve been told is true at this point. It will be interesting to see if Tim actually holds his kickoff event on the same weekend as Orrin’s. If so, I can’t image what the rest of Orrin’s group must be thinking. The pictures of their last major were pretty pathetic. Looked like around 4,000 total people. If Mark & Jenn Paul, Chris Mattis, Darkangelo, Newton, Paullin, and more follow Tim, the TEAM/LIFE major in Jan will be smaller than some of the old Open Meetings in MI.

  135. noteam permalink
    December 31, 2015 5:10 pm

    Sounding more and more like this could be for real. Seems like a lot of leaders couldn’t stand Orrin but were afraid to be the first to leave. Once word got out that Tim was really leaving, bunches of leaders are ready to leave Orrin.

    Seems like they are all acting like everything is normal and that they are going to do both companies when they talk to Orrin. But apparently sometime in Jan/Feb a bunch of them are about to totally cut ties with Orrin and his system and create their own system of tools.

    Sounding more and more like exactly what Orrin did to Dexter. Loving this!!!!

  136. Dale permalink
    December 31, 2015 9:56 pm

    Mlm must be a social addiction. Why on Earth would anyone give a rip what Tim or Orrin does? Who cares. Go make your own furtune, stake your own claim. When people realize you don’t need them, they will start following THEIR OWN dream. Its that dependency on the “leaders” that keeps the people acting like sheep hurding in, and the dollars flowing out (of your pocket). I think all this crap starts in kindergarten. Sit down, stand up, go to lunch, do your homework, here’s a cookie. Man, everyone listening to everyone else except themselves. Get in line, shut up, sit down, do what your told. Then get a job. Then follow a “leader” in mlm. Then go more broke. I listened to a ruthless character named Daniel Pena, a billionaire who I really didn’t care for but I learned something. All a “leader” really is, is a high performance person. Thats it. They just work ten times harder and longer than everyone else, and are obsessed with accomplishing what they want. Thats it. Thats the ONLY thing that seperates Orrin or Tim from the garbage man. God gave EVERYONE incredible gifts for success (in many different areas not just money). Unfortunately society tends to beat it out of you. Then you follow. Stop it. Come up with a better idea than them. Their business models stink, no matter which products they choose. Its all about the business model, not the leadership. Example, exactly zero people lose money working OR owning a Mcdonalds. EVERYONE makes money, or they the business dies, quickly. Simple math. Without a customer base, 99% LOOSE money, period. No customers, no business. Then YOU become the lemming customer. Stop it. Please.

  137. Noteamforme permalink
    December 31, 2015 11:33 pm

    Dale – Interesting the way you keep trying to sidetrack the conversation (just like Orrin would do). Also interesting and hypocritical the way you try to chastise us, wondering why we are so interested in what Orrin & Tim do. Yet, for some reason you keep coming on this site.

    Many of us spent 6-7 days a week for years and invested tens and tens of thousands of dollars and had huge organizations. So it’s pretty easy to see why we have an interest in keeping others from being scammed.

    But you claim you are not even in Life???? How does some random guy come across this site and try defending Orrin when they’ve never built the business the way we did, haven’t seen behind the curtain like we have, and aren’t even in the business. I can’t imagine someone so lonely and with such a pitifully biting life that would spend this much time on a website defending someone they claim to not personally know……unless they are actually that person. Seems a bit odd to me.

  138. exTEAMster permalink
    January 1, 2016 9:46 am

    From what I’ve been told by someone I know from my former team (who heard it from his PC upline) this was not a hugs-and-kisses goodbye between Orrin and Tim. Tim used one of the last majors to hold meetings with his biggest leaders to ask them to come with him. Needless to say, that was the end of Tim as a member of LIFE. Apparently changes to the comp plan was what eventually drove Tim away. As for who is jumping ship, I don’t have any names but what has the current PC concerned is that some of the biggest leaders might still be planning on leaving but haven’t made their intentions public so there is a lot of scrutiny on them.

  139. noteam permalink
    January 1, 2016 11:21 am

    exTEAMster – I’ve heard the same as you. Several very big names have already made the decision to leave Orrin for good but are waiting until Feb to make their announcement. They are acting like everything is normal and going to functions to solicit a few more leaders from Orrin before the big public mutiny.

    Apparently, some of these leaders have even been in Orrin’s house and he has no idea what’s coming. This is going to be good.

  140. Truly Free from Life permalink
    January 1, 2016 7:51 pm

    Dale is just here to troll the board and keep the conversation off topic. Usually means people will not read all the comments in the section. Even the length of his posts are designed to do that. Best just to ignore him and wait with our popcorn for the real show to begin. That will gives us something to comment on.

  141. Dale permalink
    January 2, 2016 11:27 am

    I was in Quixtar/Team of Destiny for about 4 years, monavie for about 6 months, Life for about 6 months. Life Leadership for about 60 days. Finally learned to cut losses quickly. I wasn’t aware the subject on this blog has to be “on topic”. Who gets to determine whats on topic? Everyone has a voice on the internet, right?

  142. Melanie Morgan permalink
    January 2, 2016 12:31 pm


    I suggest you stop trying to convince people that it is as simple as you are trying to make it, because your failing..

    You clearly don’t have a clue or intentionally ignore the fact that it is a dictatorship….and fail to include the indoctrination factor.

    Orrin & Tim have NOT “worked 10 times harder” than anyone else. When do you think the last time Orrin or even Tim actually showed the Plan at least 15 x per month, (like everyone else on here did?)… month after month..year after year?

    I can tell you Orrin himself admitted in a meeting in Wisconsin, back during the Quixtar in hiding, that he was “rusting” and hadn’t show a plan in 4 years! So don’t insult people like the “garbage man” who I would bet works “10x harder” than both Tim and Orrin put together. The “garbage man” is a success at his job or he wouldn’t have one. Unlike these guys who buy their reputation and have people like you trying to do their bidding.

    I do know someone who is a “garbage man”, and they work their butts off, in all the elements and his morals and values our mountains above these fraudsters. Just because he doesn’t make a multimillions from defrauding people and get them to part with their money for his lifestyle doesn’t make him any less of a success..

    Stop trying to put MLM, Orrin, Tim and all genuine or real leaders into the same box as all other legit businesses and leaders….there is no comparison. Unless you can point to a “business, MLM, or leader” who their business is dependent on deception, manipulation, and flat out lies, then there is no comparison…just stop it. Even someone who has never been exposed knows the difference. Do you think people don’t see this?

    The POINT you continually miss is: Orrin CONTROLs everything, from manipulating the LOS to how much HE gets paid,…””” without showing 1 plan”””…. it doesn’t matter how hard anyone else works, he can and will take it from you. What he works “hard at” is dangling the carrot enough and doing “what-ever-it-takes” to keep the blind, blinded and following and the cash cow flowing to HIM.

    He can lower anyone’s pay at any time and increase his….It has NOTHING to do with the performance and more to do with if HE permits it…it is “at his discretion” whether HE thinks you have worked “hard enough”……Dale, “what’s in it for you?” I think you are going along with Tim and his new MLM, you can tell me the truth. Because I really don’t give a rip if you do. But we all know something doesn’t add up. Good luck.

  143. Melanie Morgan permalink
    January 2, 2016 12:45 pm

    Oh one more thing he works the hardest at is trying to appear as some great leader who is changing the world and “cares” about others….His action, well they don’t add up.

    Yes Dale, you can have a voice, because Amthrax, is amazing like that and allows everyone to have one, unlike Orrin and his seems like hundreds of blogs….

    Something I want you to think long and hard on…Orrin, Chris, & Tim (the Team) is SUING Amthrax to ultimately wipe him out, gag him and have this site vanish from the face of the internet…but yet the disgusting scumbags are clearly think it is ok and using this same site.. for their war to benefit against each other….Pathetic…They are also suing my great friend, former downline…The Peters…now maybe you will get a glimpse as to how evil and hypicrtical they really are.

  144. Truly Free from Life permalink
    January 2, 2016 6:58 pm

    I’m not going to argue with you on a comment board but the purpose of comments is to be about the blog article topic. If you’d like to discuss other things I’d suggest starting a blog of your own where you can post these things. This was an article about Tim Marks leaving LIFE and thus the purpose on these comments would be information and speculation on that. Yes, everyone for better or worse has a voice on the Internet. However, learning where to put that voice is an important skill to learn. As for your team/quixtar/life history, we all have one but your current religious views or insurance occupation have nothing to do with it.
    In closing, please respect this message board as an information space for the article about.

  145. Melanie Morgan permalink
    January 2, 2016 7:06 pm

    I forgot to mention the those “Special Deal” and Different rules Appling differently to the PC and other people, Dale.

    Which has NOTHING to do with “working harder”, but everything to do with who is worshipping and sucking up to Orrin and their PC. Dale do you believe their complete BS, that it is a “level playing field for everyone or that those people also work 10x harder or is it a rigged game for them?

    What about their wives? If Chris B. is “working” his CEO job, and not “building the business”, well then does Terri get paid somehow from the LIFE business also without “working it” either? Does Laurie own any of that 53% or does she too get paid separately or own a percentage? Or do you think it’s possible they could ‘give’ their kids, mother, or anyone else they chose to…” a SPOT” at the TOP and do little if any work?

    Well, guess only some sort of discovery would ever tell the whole truth..or someone like TIM who is supposedly going to tell the “truth”, according to “truthslayer”.. therefore, if “truthslayer” is being “truthful” then.time should reveal much more truth.

  146. January 3, 2016 8:47 am

    Dale and all:

    Let’s keep the discussion on Tim Marks’ departure, his purported new company, those downline that might be leaving with him, and the potential effect it will have on TEAM/LIFE. No need to discuss the merits of the insurance business. Thank you and happy new year to all who contribute on this board in 2016.

  147. January 3, 2016 9:59 pm

    Can we talk about the others that have left, like Billy Florence, Randy Haugen, Chuck Goetschel, Mark Crawford, Matt Abraham, Ed Zentner, Don Freese, Mike Foos, Chris Smith, Greg Rau, Mark Huber and many more that could be added to the list? Where are these big leaders today, working jobs? I wonder what good things they would have to say about Orrin and Chris. Is Aaron Radosa and his band of brothers still working on the 5 year plan? How about Jim “LTIT” Martin, is he cleaning out toilets again?

    How were all of these “smarter than me” people deceived by Orrin and Chris? These are God fearing men (supposedly) who could tell you how to repent and be saved with tears in their eyes, yet they chose to deceive others. Will any of them step forward and offer some insight or do they all have a gag order too.

    I wonder if Matt Abraham would offer to represent any of you in your legal battles? He certainly has some insight as to what we all went through, the trust/broken trust and the shame and guilt from our friends and families.

  148. exTEAMster permalink
    January 4, 2016 4:39 am

    I have been told that Jim & Delores Martin are one of the big leaders that have decided to join Tim in his new MLM.

  149. noteam permalink
    January 4, 2016 7:12 am

    Das – From what I understand, many of the people you listed do have gag orders against them telling what they know. And I know they wish they could talk. Especially Billy Florence & Randy Haugen.

  150. January 4, 2016 6:35 pm

    How about Larry Vanbuskirk? Is he still sucking up to Orrin? I could have sworn I seen him picking up more pop cans next to US127 in Lansing.

  151. Truly Free From Life permalink
    January 5, 2016 8:24 am

    You’ve mentioned many on the body trail that Orrin, Chris, etc have left behind. Many may have gag orders, be at or near bankruptcy or may just be too embarrassed to speak out after it all fell apart (or scared of ligation from Orrin). Larry got screwed over when they left Amway and the LOS got shuffled, I just hope Orrin paid him for that (doubt it thought). Some are likely financially set from their other business ventures (Crawford’s and Haugen’s for example) so they have no need to speak out. We’ll never hear their side unless something goes legally wrong for Orrin and even then many may still be under his cult of personality spell. We’ve all seen names disappear but only the big 4 or 5 remain the same. I’m just interested that one of the “big” leaders has broken away and it will be interesting to see how this is spun and splits the organization once Tim’s plan is out there.

  152. Anonymous permalink
    January 5, 2016 12:11 pm

    Didn’t Tim have ownership in Life? I wonder how they came to a valuation of his ownership and how they bought him out.

    Also, what’s the most that would leave? 10%? Somehow I don’t think that would hurt Life a heck of a lot. Maybe we’ll see yet another company name change from Orrin.

    I still assume Tim is going to start another MLM that ends up with only about a 1% success rate.

  153. Rascal Teamster permalink
    January 5, 2016 12:28 pm

    It’s Tuesdau night, boys and girls. And you know what that means. It’s time to spend your evening at your local Life Open Meeting. Or…if you are in Michigan, you can drive over to Flint (former home of the Team Office) where you can catch the Open meeting on Tim’s new deal. This is their second open that I can confirm.

    I feel pretty confident with this next information. I’ve sat on it for a few days waiting for more confirmation, but when two big guns in my former group and two crossline groups within the Paul organization are leading with the same info, I feel pretty comfortable.

    They are talking a four phase product roll out. (Why do these things always require four phases to roll them out, and why do we never see phase 3 or 4?) Anyway their Walmart concept is phase 3 or phase 4…if this ever gets that far…

    The leadership gurus who were beneath being high octane juice and healthy energy drink salesmen are choosing to lead off Phase 1 with energy drinks and bars.

    Not only do I feel like I’ve seen this movie before, but I feel like I’ve done some acting in this movie before….twice actually.

    How do I do this again — Sip twice / eat once?

  154. Rascal Teamster permalink
    January 5, 2016 2:03 pm

    From what I’m being told, Co-founders of the new business are being named as:
    Mark Paul
    Jim Martin
    Chris Mattis
    Bill Newton

  155. January 5, 2016 2:13 pm

    Former LIEFers move on from goons like Orrin and Chris and are going to put their livelihood in a company “founded” by Chris Mattis and Bill “Bankrupt” Newton? I’d love to hear that plan.

  156. Melanie Morgan permalink
    January 5, 2016 2:25 pm

    Bahahahahahaha…you guys kill me. 🙂

  157. Canadiantruthbomber! permalink
    January 5, 2016 2:33 pm

    Looks like Life Leadership is on the scramble other big leaders and even Life Coaches outside of Tims group are now leaving they are joining other big MLM and starting new companies of their own.
    Looks like life was not all it was cracked up to be. Life 2.0 was the rollout of the end of life leadership. Orrin and Chris are now on the scramble to save any legs possible. In hopes to still go international before US market crumbles.

  158. exTEAMster permalink
    January 5, 2016 4:07 pm

    Anyone know if Tim’s new opportunity meetings are available online?

  159. Rascal Teamster permalink
    January 5, 2016 4:15 pm

    PJ, I don’t think that there is a single one of us who ever put a marker to a white board who couldn’t already show this plan.

    It will be the same plan. We will know shortly. Someone’s going to show up and post I’m sure.

    For those of you from the Q, it’s the Pink Panther all over again. This time the Pink Panther is us. Can you imagine the big leaders at Tim’s Open not knowing whom to look at? Is that person I don’t know an Orrin spy or an Amthrax spy? Does anybody know that person?

    This is sweet. I can already see the Four Phases.

    Phase 1 — Tim business doesn’t grow
    Phase 2 — Tim blames Orrin & us
    Phase 3 — Orrin sues Tim & not us
    Phase 4 — both businesses fall apart

    Can I buy the movie rights to this thing? It’s got epic documentary written all over it.

  160. jasondangelo4life permalink
    January 5, 2016 11:07 pm

    Chris Mattis just shared on twitter that he is no longer affiliated with life leadership (per their p & p) @chris_mattis

  161. freedomhaha permalink
    January 6, 2016 4:41 am

    Can someone please go to an Open?? If only I was anywhere near!

  162. Rascal Teamster permalink
    January 6, 2016 5:43 am

    We had a presence at the meeting last night. No real plan was shown. Just big picture stuff. I imagine they will start laying it out after their seminar.

    Time will tell, and so will we.

  163. Rascal Teamster permalink
    January 6, 2016 5:47 am


    I’m sure that they are broadcasting this to Mattis’ team on the West Coast, but I’m sure they are using Skype like we did in Monavie.

    You’d have to be invited in.

  164. Jason mills permalink
    January 6, 2016 7:23 am

    Sounds to me that the last couple of post on this blog are really Lifers trying to throw you guys off of the Life Business and put the focus on Tim.
    These life scammers are really smart and they monitor this blog and post as different people regularly on here so it is hard to determine what is real and not real on here.

  165. freedomhaha permalink
    January 6, 2016 12:16 pm

    I am excited to see what name that come up with for Tim’s venture. You know it will be a simple term to throw off Google. Amthrax will have to update his search tags so that people don’t get sucked in by the newest scam.

  166. Chris I permalink
    January 6, 2016 1:09 pm

    Join Tim “The Moral Compass” Marks and the fired up team of leaders in the exploding business, PRODUCTS!!!

  167. exTEAMster permalink
    January 6, 2016 2:29 pm

    Wow, just think of how much money people have spent on CDs by Tim and Amy and the Pauls that are now considered contraband.

  168. January 7, 2016 3:58 pm

    There were several comments from first-time commenters in to-be-approved comment queue. These comments have been approved and added to this thread, so scroll up the page to see them.

  169. January 8, 2016 8:37 am

    I’ve compiled a list of tweets that I could find some new ex-LIFE teams disclosing their departure from the LIFE business here:

    If you find others, add them to the comments section in that post.

  170. January 8, 2016 8:37 am

    @Canadiantruthbomber! – Do you know what other MLMs LIFE members are leaving LIFE for?

  171. Dale permalink
    January 8, 2016 9:22 pm

    Melanie Morgan, sorry for the delayed response to your attackes earlier. I was working my a– off this week building business(es). I am not one of Orrin, or Tim’s lemming followers. Never have been. Never will be. I actually know Mark Paul well, and Tim. Spoke to both of them last week as a matter of fact. I don’t care what they’re doing. I ain’t doing it. I will never again go down to the bottom of another pathetic mlm. I actually gather actual real customers for a living, serve them, and collect residual income for doing a good job. But, I do agree with alot of the CONTENT of what they are saying, NOT their actual business model. Melanie, When your a hammer, maybe everything (or everyone) looks like a nail. Please calm yourself down. I agree with alot of what your saying. But please lighten up!

  172. Melanie Morgan permalink
    January 9, 2016 9:01 am


    You have every right to believe what you want. I wish you no ill and I also agree with you on your MLM stance. But when I see a “nail”, I am going to “hammer” it. 🙂

  173. Melanie Morgan permalink
    January 9, 2016 12:15 pm


    I do not know you as a person, but I would bet if we hung out for a while, we could get a long and get along just fine. I know what my impression on here may appear as, that is the least of my concern, but allow me to tell you (if it isn’t clear already) 🙂

    I take the destruction and agony these guys have caused in relationships of their so called prior friends, many families and too much loss emotionally, and financially, very seriously.

    And those lawsuits that their sole motivation is to ruin them financially, gag and silence because of truth. Can you name 1 “true leader” let alone 1 professing “Christian” leader who is motived to ruin someone to hide the truth? And many of those people who have witnessed been intentionally treated like garbage because of these posers and most are too afraid to even have a voice. It became very personal for me because I hate injustice, liars, etc.

    If you knew what I know, and have seen what I have, (I am taking a risk by saying) YOU would get sledge hammer!

  174. Mike collins permalink
    January 9, 2016 2:35 pm

    Truthslayer……Ahem…..let me clear my throat with a resounding BULLSHIIIIIIIT!
    Do you mean to tell me that after 20+ years of his downline not making any money in Amway, Mona Vie, or Lief that he suddenly having a crisis of conscience?
    That’s got to be one of the biggest lines of bullshit I’ve ever heard on this blog. I’ll tell you what’s going on, he is now decided that he’s big enough to break off with his group start his own MLM scheme and pocket most of the cash because he will now be the king of the Pyramid. And I’ll prove it to you as soon as he releases his compensation plan.

  175. Dale permalink
    January 10, 2016 12:14 am

    Here is something I observed. Maybe you’ll agree. 20 yrs ago, the economy was stronger. Many more six figure income jobs, instead of two part time jobs now for less. People could afford to buy products, drive around, spend money, rah rah, No problem. And Amway was a real company, with real products, albeit expensive, nonetheless real actual products. I don’t think Orrin understands (maybe he does now that Tim and co left) that things are different today. The part they aren’t getting is that people can not afford to do those things like 20 yrs ago. So the carnage you are talking about leaves a financial trail of blood and body parts. The strained relationships are an effect of the financial wreckage. Trust me. If you made even a dime in their mlm, these blogs would not exist. I wouldn’t be on it either. The stupid crap they do, like lie, exaggerate etc is because they are clawing and scratching any way they can to keep the house of cards from collapsing. But it appears its collapsing anyway. Their bullshit just postpones it a few months. What you sew is what you reap. Thats why I like to rest on that principle. It takes care of everything, eventually. I am realizing its time to go back to work, get paid, build something YOU own, and blow off all these bullshit mlm’s.

  176. January 10, 2016 9:00 am

    [QUOTE=Mike collins][I]That’s got to be one of the biggest lines of bullshit I’ve ever heard on this blog. I’ll tell you what’s going on, he is now decided that he’s big enough to break off with his group start his own MLM scheme and pocket most of the cash because he will now be the king of the Pyramid. And I’ll prove it to you as soon as he releases his compensation plan.[/I][/QUOTE]

    Have to give a big fat “LIKE” on that!

  177. January 10, 2016 11:51 am

    “A dog returns to his own vomit”

  178. Anonymous permalink
    January 13, 2016 1:37 pm

    Any news from Tuesday evening?

  179. permalink
    January 14, 2016 12:42 pm

    Ok… Tim Mark’s doing this was the final straw for me.

    I got introduced into Team back when it was still honest in it’s association to Quixtar.

    I miss that time and era.

    In my opinion chasing after being Walmart of the Internet was an amazing

    I can remember going to Seminars/Majors that were HUGE with SO much recognition that it would take FOREVER to get everyone across the stage.

    Back when Team had a Christian orientation with an extra system pack of Christian
    oriented CD’s/Books.

    I loved the Pastor who was with Team.

    Truly it was the most amazing time in TEAM.

    Back in those days TEAM had honest leaders who bled their hearts on their CD’s.

    While it was still an MLM… on both the Quixtar/Team sides… It in my mind could
    have went somewhere, and became something great.

    I am so glad to be a part of in that time period.

    But sadly… DIED when the leaders instead of being true to
    those who followed them… started chasing after money.

    TEAM really once WAS A CULTURE.

    Now it is nothing but a SCAM.

    How sad it truly has become.

    Why don’t they just put it out of it’s misery already…

    Walmart of the Internet –> Juice



    Not only was it Juice BUT IT WAS SCREWING WITH LoS.

    Sigh… What a SAD TIME for what was ONCE A GREAT ORGANIZATION of LEADERS.

    YEA ME… In the black suit, red TIE. I AM THE ONE LEFT BEHIND.



    LIEEEEEEE FEEEEE will cover your LIESSSS.

    LIFE will NEVER =




  180. freedomhaha permalink
    January 15, 2016 4:56 am
    Thank you for sharing your perspective. Whatever Orrin calls his operation now is clearly in worse shape now than during the days of packing majors. The one thing that has never changed is a comp plan that benefits a very few. Due to more people being in the business more people were being recognized, but the ratio of failures to success remained the same.

  181. January 15, 2016 7:41 am, you seem sincere. But surely you know that every MLM is built on deception, even at the very beginning. That’s because anyone with enough MLM experience to start their own knows that it’s a scam right out of the gate. I feel like I’m repeating myself, maybe it will sink in after a few times.

    You may have had your heart in the right place but I guarantee you that your leaders knew the game.

  182. Rascal Teamster permalink
    January 15, 2016 10:43 am and PJ, I am going to agree with both of you on this one. I think I understand where is coming from.

    I got involved a year before we left Q. When I got in, I fully understood the game that was Amway. I’m not sure what kind of rock a person must have been born under, or the lack of research one did, but if a person didn’t know the horror stories of Amway, I hardly feel sorry for them. Wrecked marriages and bankruptcies were rampant. It was and always will be (like all MLM) a big ponzie scheme. I knew that, but I thought that I could beat the game and succeed. Not because I was naive. I thought I was that good. Point is, I knew what it was when I joined….95% or more don’t make it in any MLM.

    The only question I had was, “did Orrin’s system he was using within Amway work? Did it make a poor business better?” The answer to that was, “Yes.” Orrin found a way to game the game. Does that make him crooked? I’m not so sure at that point, but it sure’y doesn’t make him a saint either. Orrin was basically giving people a better chance (a small one) in an MLM that was failing in the US. And I’m not sure that people can honestly say they didn’t know the money was made on the Team system. I did, and I got in to be a part of it. I was closed on this deal through the money that would be made off the system…not the products. I was told the products were irrelevant.

    Was Orrin lying about wanting to create the Walmart Of The Internet? I do not believe he was. His idea was viable, and if DeVos and VanAndle would have listened to him, they both would both be as rich as Jeff Bezos and But they didn’t, so they sell cars now.

    Once Orrin and the PC realized that they didn’t have the numbers required to make it the Walmart idea work, that is when the real lying and deception began that is talking about. Melanie will tell you that when all the leaders left at the joining of Monavie, they did so because of what transpired during the desert and not really in Amway. I trust Melanie’s character, and I don’t believe that she was deceiving people while in Q, but she left because she didn’t want to and knew what was coming. She does however feel terrible for getting people involved in something that ended up going so far south. I don’t believe she knew any of this while she was promoting it. (Correct me if I’m wrong Melanie. Just using you as an example as you were a Round Table and are well known on Amthrax)

    Anyone who has been a part of this group has heard the stories of these current big Life and Tim Mark’s leaders. Many were successful before Team, and many were not, but in their stories, they were all pretty much dirtbags before the MLM biz. The dirtbag was still in there during the Q (PJ’s point), but didn’t really express itself till it was pressured in the desert (’s point). My grandpa used to say, “you can put make up and a dress on a pig, but it’s still a pig.”

    They’ve been lying, cheating thieves for so long since the Q, if handed a legitimate business opportunity, I think they’d snakishly muck it up. They certainly don’t have the character to create one. I look forward to Mike Collins’ analysis of Tim’s comp plan when they release it. That will tell us everything we need to know about the pig under the dress.

  183. Dale permalink
    January 15, 2016 11:54 pm

    MLM is dinosaur. There are actually companies who invest lots of money to market and bring qualified leads to sales reps, and even pay the sales rep a salary plus bonus plus commissions, and overrides for recruiting. I know because I just got hired by one. The new economy are leaving these crap business models in the dust. They are imploding faster than ever now, because people no longer have the luxury of being bull-shitted out of their money for very long. People are MUCH more tight with their money than before the 2008 crash, and trust is still much lower than before. I know because I also had an accounts receivable business. Direct sales, internet marketing systems, and companies that actually invest in people (who are carefully screened) will crush these bull shit mlm companies. Shooting star is the picture I have. The may skyrocket but blow up and fade fast. Any company that doesn’t focus on customers will fail miserably at helping anybody but a few make any money, no matter what the products are, the comp plan, the ‘leadership’ and the system. All the same. Lets all move on. Do something that works.

  184. Craig permalink
    January 16, 2016 3:55 am

    Does Dale work for Kirby?

  185. Mike COLLINS permalink
    January 16, 2016 9:18 am

    And what would that be Dale

  186. Dale permalink
    January 16, 2016 12:10 pm

    No. I market relevant services that people and businesses actually need. The product or service isn’t really the point. Its your thinking and approach. Watch Grant Cardone and Jordan Belfort straight line system on youtube if you want to learn what really works in sales in the real world, not some mlm bullshit meeting, which is designed to convert YOU into THEIR customer.

  187. Mike Collins permalink
    January 16, 2016 12:41 pm

    What services are you marketing Dale

  188. Zach permalink
    January 16, 2016 1:49 pm

    The new business in Bonvera and they are airing it live through extroda right now

  189. Anonymous permalink
    January 16, 2016 2:33 pm

    Is Bonvera Tim’s new thing? Anybody know if it’s just another loser MLM?

  190. Zach permalink
    January 16, 2016 2:35 pm

    Tim’s new thing

  191. Rascal Teamster permalink
    January 16, 2016 3:01 pm

    A picture that was sent to me an hour ago is worth a thousand words.

    Mark & Jenn Paul

  192. Rascal Teamster permalink
    January 16, 2016 3:27 pm

    The new tool room is called The Pro Shop. System company is named Extroda.




  193. Rascal Teamster permalink
    January 16, 2016 3:33 pm

    Let’s see if these post. I’ll get this figured out.

  194. Rascal Teamster permalink
    January 16, 2016 3:40 pm

    The Tampa soft launch

  195. Rascal Teamster permalink
    January 16, 2016 3:42 pm

    The Toledo soft launch

  196. January 16, 2016 3:46 pm

    Nice work!

  197. Rascal Teamster permalink
    January 16, 2016 3:47 pm

    Bonvera HQ in Wichita KS

    Phyzix energy bars and drinks
    First phase

    That’s all I have at the time, but I’ll post more as it comes in.

  198. Rascal Teamster permalink
    January 16, 2016 4:07 pm

    Information is readily available all over the place at this point. They are pounding social media.

    More feel good MLM marketing garbage that we’ve all heard a million times.

  199. Anonymous permalink
    January 16, 2016 4:32 pm

    Looks like another Amway with energy drinks and food bars that no one’s ever heard of and overpriced. yawn.

  200. January 16, 2016 4:35 pm

    How embarrassing for the former LIFE’ers to go from leading the world to hawking granola bars and snake oil. Some people have no shame.

  201. Anonymous permalink
    January 16, 2016 5:48 pm

    So disappointed, but I guess I shouldn’t be surprised.

    Random thoughts:
    Why pick the the name Phyzix? It reminds me of the antigas stuff Phazyme.
    Bonvera – Say “Bon Voyage” to your money.
    Extroda – Should be a sedan made by Skoda or something extruded.

    Again, so very disappointed. When will some people ever learn?

  202. January 16, 2016 6:36 pm

    As long as there are straw men, there will be cases to be made as to why the last regime’s system failed and why ‘this’ one can’t miss. I don’t know how many sheep it takes to fund the top of a pyramid, must not be much if they can keep repackaging all this crap under different brands.

    All that talk of being about freedom and money makes me sick. It will be the exact opposite for those foolish enough to chase it with any MLM.

  203. Rascal Teamster permalink
    January 17, 2016 5:26 am

    Did anyone else watch the 7 min video on Want to see what the stress of Life has done to these people? Give it a look. They’ve aged 10 years.

    Yes, Anonymous, it does sound like Amway. I had flash backs while watching it. From Delores asking, “wouldn’t you want to give your kids somehing healthy to drink,” to hearing the phrase, “it’s anyway money,” this so resembles what they’ve done previously, I almost threw up.

    I am totally amused by the fact that they have a separate tool company. Obviously this was done so that they can pay system tool bonuses from a separate corporation and keep it clean.

    Makes me wonder if it is even possible to run an MLM without a tool scam. Come on guys, this is 2016. This is a time when mobile searches are more popular than desktop computer searches, more movies and music are streamed online than hard copies are purchased, and you can take an entire college degree course from your home. And you guys are printing tools?

    WTH guys? I have 200 eBooks on my phone and have learned more relevant information for free on YouTube to help me run my business in the past two years than I ever could if I tried to do it from books or live courses. And I can do it from my office without having to burn gas in my car or pay shipping costs.

    This is a HUGE red flag. If the business was profitable enough on the product side, you would be able to download all these tools for free.

    You are really going to require that your new people buy tools in addition to products, and you’re going to lead with energy drinks??? Your going into a market dominated by the 20-something segment, and this is your training system? This is what you’ve created for a business model to carry you into the future? It’s already obsolete!

    This tells me two things….
    1) these guys have no idea how to build a business for the future, and
    2) Mike Collins was correct when he said that this was only done so Tim can be on the top of the pyramid.

    It’s got a different name, but it still looks like the same pyramid….it looks old and smells like death.

  204. Rascal Teamster permalink
    January 17, 2016 5:39 am

    The Bonvera trademark is owned by All Brands Distribution, LLC. Here are the details.

    Want to talk about sounding just like a description of Amway? Geez guys.

  205. January 17, 2016 10:04 am

    It didn’t end well for Vemma and its line of energy drinks.

    Any gues as to the retail and distributor price for the Phyzix products?

  206. Dale permalink
    January 17, 2016 9:16 pm

    The products, the comp plan and the system doesn’t do anything. It takes massive amounts of activity to get ANYTHING to work (WAY more than 15 contacts per month). If you make 100 calls per day you can sell just about anything, two or three per week. So if your going to do the work, you mine as well actually get paid real money. Example: sell a $200 per month Indexed Universal Life policy, make 2 grand UP FRONT, OR health insurance which pays as earned 10% every month of the total premium. I learned from mlm if you disappear but the monthly purchase also goes away, its not worth anything to your life economically. Services and products that people continuously pay for WITHOUT you works. Product purchases that depend on hype and meetings usually disappear when they figure out they don’t actually need it.

  207. Mike Collins permalink
    January 18, 2016 3:08 am

    Dale, does this “totally unique compensation plan” happen to include you building a team of agents on which you receive overrides or commissions? And if so where can we see a comp plan pdf?

  208. January 18, 2016 6:49 am

    All the posing for THAT? Come on, Dale. Have some respect.

  209. January 18, 2016 7:42 am

    @dale – No need to advertise your company in the comments section on this blog.

  210. Rascal Teamster permalink
    January 18, 2016 7:45 am

    Dale…Dale…Dale…Seriously? After all your back and forth BS, you’ve really been stumping for the legitimacy of your own business??? No one is going to take you seriously. Why didn’t you mention this from the beginning?

    I said that you sounded like my buddy who sells combined insurance. Someone else asked you if you were with Kirby. Mike Collins asked you who you were with. Know why? Because no matter how you try to pitch this, you all smell the same. Now I know who you remind me of…a guy I knew who pitched me on Pre Paid Legal services…another MLM in legal services. You, brother, are an MLM in insurance.

    I didn’t even have to go to your website and go to Agent Tools to know that I would find a back end log in. One of the “helping hands” your back office gives you is a Downline Report.

    Dale…the product an MLM’er offers his customers may change, but the people involved don’t. You were a dead give away from your first post.

    You tried harder to legitimize your business model than you did your product. You said you were an insurance salesman, but you sure didn’t sound like one. You sounded like a recruiter.

  211. Dale permalink
    January 19, 2016 12:13 am

    Dear “Rascal Teamster” if you have the guts to actually put your name out there then I’ll listen. I don’t bother with people who aren’t going anywhere in life. I’ve probably made more in one month than many full time people do in a year. Why would I give a rip what you think? This website is filled with mlm rejects who couldn’t hack it in the real world. So they go off in a corner to comiserate. Has anyone’s income increased in the last year in this blog? Has anyone did anything to move forward in life? If so, post it. But, at this point, looks like a bunch of miserable people who have nothing better to do than complain how they got ripped off and how bad so and so is. Never cast pearls before swine. I’m out of here, and will not be bothering to pull this up ever again. Good luck and God Bless.

  212. LA Confidential permalink
    January 19, 2016 6:58 am

    It’s about time….

  213. freedomhaha permalink
    January 19, 2016 6:58 am

    Dale- I assume you are talking about real life not LIFE, so I will bite. In the past year I was able to increase my (key word) business around 200% over the previous year. I was also able to achieve the pinnacle of another one of my professional endeavors. Very blessed to be out of LIFE for over five years.

  214. LA Confidential permalink
    January 19, 2016 7:20 am


    Here’s the thing
    You and those like you cannot handle it when you’re forced to go off script.
    You don’t know who you’re dealing with on this board, you don’t know our stories, and you have no clue that we see you coming from miles away
    You’re all the same

    You come in to stir up the hornets nest and when you get stung, you cry, hurl and insult or two, and run away.

    I have close, personal, first hand knowledge and experience with this.

    You are bullies
    You are cowards, and
    I have only just begun to fight

  215. Craig permalink
    January 19, 2016 4:33 pm

    Dale – people post on here to warn others so they can save their precious time and money and not become a host for some parasite telling them they can have all they’ve ever dreamed about. (If they’re willing to work and grow and become a super recruiter…)

  216. January 22, 2016 12:36 pm

    Tim and Amy Marks left Life Leadership because they had suggested some ideas that were not implemented. These ideas are discussed between the founders and voted upon (like many, many large corporations do). When their suggestions were not implemented, they left to start a similar company that they could lead using their desires. This wasn’t a “hidden” move and it absolutely was communicated to the members of the Life Leadership organization. From my understanding, it wasn’t a hostile situation… just a matter of differing opinions.

  217. noteam permalink
    January 23, 2016 8:33 am

    Emily – thanks for repeating what you were told. however, those of us who spent many hours behind closed doors with Orrin, Chris & Tim know there is usually a BIG difference between what is told to the masses, and what really happened.

    Sit back and watch in Feb & March to see what I mean. If Orrin & Chris are not granted large ownership roles in the new company, you will see a drastic change in their response as the numbers in LIFE crumble.


  1. Tweets from New Ex-LIFE Members Disclosing Their Departure from LIFE | AMTHRAX
  2. Leadership via Search and Replace | AMTHRAX
  3. Bonvera and Extroda, the new MLM and Tools company from Tim Marks and other Ex-TEAM/LIFE Members | AMTHRAX

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