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Anatomy of the TEAM LIFE Business Presentation

Update June 3, 2013: LIFE has updated its Compensation Plan and included an Income Disclosure Statement for 2012-2013. This statement should be presented along with any income claims made during a TEAM/LIFE presentation. Read our analysis of the IDS here.

Mesha, a reader and contributor on this site provides a great overview of what you may hear if you go to a TEAM LIFE business presentation. In the second part of this document, she outlines the questions you should ask of TEAM LIFE members.

I am a very positive person, and I believe that people can and should reach for their dreams. Do not label me as “negative person, a lazy critic, sore loser, or a dream stealer.” In fact, I just hope that those screwed by TEAM don’t write off their dreams in the end.

I am sickened with the deception in TEAM and want to get the word out. After all, don’t they say that “Evil flourishes when good people do nothing?” That’s why I’m writing this post.

Introduction to the Meeting and Dream Building

In a TEAM LIFE presentation, a TEAM LIFE member will ask you the following questions:

  • How would you like to be Financially Free?
  • How would you like to stay at home with your kids?
  • Get rid of that JOB?
  • Pay off those student loans?
  • What are your dreams?
  • How would you like to live out your dreams?

Next, they will say something to the effect of:

  • Well, we have news for you! In just 3-5 years you can have more money than you will know how to manage.
  • Money will be coming out of your ears.
  • In fact, with all that money you can have the freedom to bless others financially, if you so choose.
  • And you will never, ever, ever have to have a JOB again!!
  • Unless, of course, financial freedom and wealth building is not your thing.
  • This amazing opportunity is not for everyone.
  • No, it’s not network marketing. It’s a Leadership Development Service Provider.

Lecture On How Money is Made

From here, they will proceed into a Robert Kiyosaki-influenced lecture on how to make money:

  • In this country there are four legal ways to make money.
  • They are divided up into quadrants. “ESBI”. In the “E” quadrant you are trading time for money at your job. If you are trading time for money you are never going to be able to have both — the criteria for true wealth. Changing jobs won’t save you either. You must change quadrants.
  • In the “S” quadrant a person owns their own small business, but is still trading time for money. They need to be present in order for that business to function. Even if employees are hired there is still no guarantee the job will get done. And when it doesn’t, who has to clean up the mess? You do!
  • In contrast, on the right side of the chart a system is leveraged for making money.
  • In the I quadrant money is made through investments, usually requiring a large sum of money to start with.
  • BUT, in the “B” quadrant, a passive, residual income is created. A system has been set in place, allowing you to do the work once, and then profit from it long after you have stopped working. This is where 95 percent of the money in the United States is at. Remember, a person is only truly wealthy if they have both time and money. A “B” type income will give you that.
  • Bet you didn’t learn this is school. That’s why you need to stick around the Association where you can gain access to the Right kind of Information.

More Dream Building

Following this lecture, the TEAM LIFE presenter will ask you some more questions to get you thinking about an improved financial life.

  • How would you like to determine when you get a raise?
  • What if you were compensated in direct proportion to the amount of work you did?
  • What if you got to determine your work hours?
  • I’m here to tell you that all this and more is possible. Sadly, though, as people move up in their careers, their income tends to cap off at a certain point even though they are doing the same work.
  • It slowly sinks until retirement age where the majority of Americans are now either dead, disabled or broke.
  • After they spend years making someone else rich they have come to the sunset of their lives with nothing to show for, living lives of quiet desperation.
  • They were lulled into mediocrity, vicariously living their lives out through the blue hue, and one day hoping and praying their children would do something more.
  • Isn’t it kind of funny how we could have done everything right in life and still end up at this point?
  • Ya know they told us to go to school, graduate, and get a good job, and yet the majority of Americans are in debt. Look at the economy.
  • It’s hard isn’t it? We know.
  • We understand. We also have a solution.

Introducing TEAM and LIFE

After all this set-up, the TEAM LIFE presenter finally gets to talking about the business opportunity (LIFE) and the system (TEAM). At the same time, there’s scant concrete information given on exactly one is going to be selling.

  • In school we are taught to learn a trade, do, it, and then that defines our lifestyle. But what if it was the other way around?
  • What if we defined the kind of lifestyle we wanted learned from others who had the results we wanted in life, and then did them?
  • Through a Leadership Development Service provider called TEAM you can learn how to create a passive, residual, type B income by owning your own LIFE business.
  • We have a proven system to help you grow your business as well.
  • Orrin Woodward, IAB award winner and chairman of the TEAM, as well as the rest of the PC have already forged the terrain in this industry and have created a system.
  • The hard work has already been done. All you have to do is follow their path. Once you do, those who made it will be waiting to embrace you at the finish line.
  • We are all in this together as a team.

Someone who’s seeing this TEAM LIFE business for the first-time will be no doubt confused by the terminology. What’s TEAM? What’s LIFE? What’s the PC? Who’s Orrin Woodward? These are great questions to ask at the end of the presentation. But, there’s no time for questions, as the presenter continues to spin the dream of what you’ll be doing:

  • Through the system you will learn how to create communities of people.
  • You want to know how money is made in this? People push products, products don’t push people.
  • In networking a company with a product will pay communities of people to market their products instead of paying for advertising. That means more money goes back into your pocket.
  • In this business you are creating communities of people which serve as the pipeline through which goods and residual income flow.
  • It is kind of like Facebook, except that you get paid for every person you get to join your network.
  • When you join your upline will have a vested interest in your success. They don’t make money until you do.
  • All the stars are aligned in your favor. The only way you lose is if you QUIT.

At last, the presenter describes what LIFE really is, or does he?

  • You, my friend, have come at the right time.
  • TEAM has just launched its own MLM — the LIFE business — a few months ago and it is exploding!
  • LIFE stands for Living Intentionally for Excellence.
  • It’s a subscription service of world class leadership materials that will help you live a better life in all of the eight F’s — your family, faith, fitness, friendship, fun, following, finances, and freedom.
  • This business is great because it is at the intersection between four booming industries- networking, community building, the life coaching industry, and the self-help industry.
  • This business sells itself!

The presenter omits the fact that TEAM has been around since the 90’s, and has been aligned with several MLM businesses in the past: Amway, Quixtar, and MonaVie.

Some Details… But Not All

The presenter now talks about the capital investment needed to get started in LIFE. He also tries to (poorly) address the pyramid scheme complaints about this business by changing the subject:

  • For only xxx amount of dollars, you too can have access to a multi- billion dollar business.
  • Plus, as soon as you hit power player your business will pay for itself.
  • No, this is not a pyramid scheme.
  • Your job is a pyramid scheme and a cult.
  • In a pyramid scheme you can’t make more money than the person who recruited you… but remember to save your spot before someone gets in ahead of you!
  • You wonder if only the people at the top make money — well most traditional businesses have a 90 percent failure rate in the first few years of startup too, and remember those at the top had to start at the bottom at one point!
  • And remember it’s not about the money — this is a social movement wrapped around a business.
  • Orrin Woodward and the PC are Godly Individuals who are working to bring mom’s home and fight the media war.

The Final Pitch

The end of the presentation is near, but the TEAM LIFE rep has one final pitch to make:

  • Can’t afford the startup fee? Then you must really need the system!
  • Everything costs money at first.
  • But really we are not about the money.
  • In fact the producers of the LIFE subscriptions have decided to not take any royalties from their products so more money can flow back to those who are creating the communities.
  • Let’s schedule a follow up appointment in a few days.
  • Here’s some information to look over — feel free to ask any questions but remember, you wouldn’t go to McDonald’s Hamburger University and question their system would you?
  • We are doing this with or without you!
  • Are you fired up yet????

Since they said we could ask questions, let’s go ahead and start asking. The questions prospects should pose to TEAM LIFE members is covered in Part Two here.

442 Comments leave one →
  1. Katie permalink
    February 23, 2012 2:38 pm

    I had forgotten about the “media war.” This is pretty thorough, indeed. I’m so embarrassed that I used to peddle the same lies. Looking at it now makes it seem so obvious! Why would anyone say yes to this?? Amazing.

  2. outsider permalink
    February 23, 2012 3:16 pm

    I love this! Spill the STP presentations for free and outside of the high pressure hype situation of the personal meeting and NO ONE will fall for it. The kingpins and mlm-experienced know that, which is exactly why they cling to such an otherwise outdated sales mechanism, for Pete’s sake! Gotta love it. I hope you guys can spill them all like this – MV presentations, Amscam presentations, any of them! Nobody else can do it, except you guys who have been there, and this is a case where information is power. In that sense, the once scammed have the power right now, and the scammers can’t do anything about it. Be loud. Attract attention. You do have something to say! 🙂

    (And Katie and others shouldn’t be too hard on themselves, IMO, because the only reason you fell for it is that you didn’t have the benefit of seeing the plan “naked” like this. You saw it with the scam-o-rama drama in full swing. Without that, it’s clear to you, too, as Katie mentioned.)

  3. Freedomhaha permalink
    February 23, 2012 7:13 pm

    Great job- this is 100% on, sadly.

  4. February 24, 2012 11:49 am

    You’d have to be an idiot to not see this is almost verbatim the Amway plan.

    Except Amway has, you know, products. That are overpriced.

    Not about the money? That’s a load. Woody and Co. seem to care about nothing BUT money.

    And subservience.

  5. outsider permalink
    February 24, 2012 3:03 pm

    rocket said: “You’d have to be an idiot to not see that this is almost verbatim the Amway plan.”

    If you’ve heard it before, that is! I think this info could help a newbie save a lot of time ( and potentially $ and embarrassment and all the rest).

    Seriously, I didn’t know the whole spiel was identical (though I might have guessed at this point) so I bet other readers outside of mlm don’t know. And I bet still others are wondering if they should believe those who are showing the plan and telling them, “oh, no,we’re entirely different from that other nasty mlm which is a pyramid scheme!” I like the idea of having all the “plans” available so the newbie could read and discern for himself if they’re so entirely different or realize what rocket says – that they’re interchangeable!

    I’ve never heard the Amway pitch or the TEAM/LIFE pitch, personally. (Just lucky, I guess!) I heard a relative’s first go at giving the mv pitch last year – not very convincing and a bit creepy. (That was what introduced me to this site.) I can think of a few things different in the mv pitch I heard – like an environmental slant, a charitable slant and of course the freaky health claims. But I’d love to see someone in the know share the polished mv presentation as above one day. If you can stomach it – I imagine it might be difficult, but I really think it could help other folks! I’m picturing the guy who just reluctantly set up the meeting time to hear the plan, then he goes home, googles “team life business plan” (or whichever flavor has targeted him) and then reads the whole scammy thing, and saves himself the trouble of the whole embarassing pitch. So he calls up and cancels and lives happily ever after. ! Whew, dodged a bullet.

  6. February 24, 2012 4:18 pm

    This is awesome Mesha! These MLM charlatans are full of bs. They got so used to telling their lies they believe the same as the unequivocal truth. I would have to crawl out of my skin to attempt to sit through this mishmash of bs in my life ever again. But if I could this is how I’d have fun talking back to the liar read LIEFer, before I get kicked out I suppose. This is a good one.
    LIEFer “This is where 95 percent of the money in the United States is at.”
    I shout “Nonsense, Bull Shizzle, prove it!”

    (P/S Why it’s a lie, How many of your neighbors or friends do you know that make residual income? And for those who do where do they take their residual income? Back into a residual limbo or into investments? Even thinking this one thro’ without empirical data just doesn’t add up. Thanks to critical thinking.)

    LIEFer “Bet you didn’t learn this is school.”
    I shout “No they don’t teach lies over there!”
    LIEFer “That’s why you need to stick around the Association where you can gain access to the Right kind of Information.”
    I shout “No can do, it’s too expensive to stick around you just to buy lies, liar!” To hell with these types lying MLM scoundrels!

  7. February 24, 2012 4:49 pm

    @ Rocket, Outsider
    These other MLM charlatans may twitch any which way they want but the fact remains that scAmway is the grand daddy of them all. In fact, they owe their existence to grand daddy and deep inside of them they know that, no matter which way they skew or slant their presentation, talk, who they claim to be, how different or whatever it is. You know that grand daddy done mastered the art of staying alive-use the words political contributions and Republicans in the same sentence.

    Here’s a good read

    The idea of posting a collection of different MLM’s presentations here is really great and it’s about time. Let the prospects listen over there, read over here and make own determinations. Heck I could even do some myself. Good job Mesha.

  8. TruthSeeker permalink
    February 24, 2012 5:13 pm

    ExAmbot, you have got it all wrong. Check out this quote from one of the Life followers on Orrin’s blog. Don’t you know you have it all wrong? This is not some lame MLM pitch this is a God given calling.

    “The divine appointment of these two men has led to the changing of thousands and soon to be millions of lives.” Kristen Seidl

    They sure are changing lives, hope & change, that’s what this is all about. This goes way beyond the money, these folks are literally making a difference….hahahaha! Rubbish!

    Perhaps Orrin should step in the presidential race as a third party candidate, after all he has mastered the art of grabbing everyone’s money and distributing among the elite few. He would fit right in in Washington D.C…

  9. ExAmbot permalink
    February 25, 2012 6:16 am


    I am glad to be wrong it’s so right!


    Oh puleeeze MLMers! Tagging on divine crap onto scams is a road charlatans use to disarm people and make their way into their wallets via their hearts and minds. I posted a huge sign “ExAmbot” it means road closed!

    “…changing lives…” These greedy charlatans are changing lives for sure – bankruptcies, broken relationships etc. What manner of hell they wreak on people. I don’t want any part of their, ahem, divine heaven that they creating. If that means going to to hell, gladly, I will see them there!

  10. ExAmbot permalink
    February 25, 2012 6:49 am


    I got a call to attend a presentation from a former downline who joined another scam recently. I am so far removed from this pernicious pretend MLM “industry” that just the idea that I could be there to witness a scam in progress was too revolting to attend. Closed minded to scams, hell yeah. But may be someday I just might have time & overcome my disgust and attend just to trouble make and update on the latest in MLM scam world. Open minded to that, hell yeah it’s enticing.

  11. ExAmbot permalink
    February 25, 2012 7:07 am

    Opukester for President?! Ha Ha that’s funny, phoney.

    Let me guess oh he has too much divine dedication to “change lives” to bother with being president. Talk about looking at which side of the bread is buttered. I can’t think of anywhere else that would offer as free a reign to scam and pillage as there is in MLM scam world for a kingpin.

  12. February 25, 2012 10:46 am

    OW for President.

    It is a group page on Facebook since December 2009 with two members Jessica Venegas and Brad Blackwire, and apparently less than 50 supporters

    He Amthrax, it is time for you to make a group page on Facebook as well maybe titled “OW for President. Seriously? I think you will get more than 50 supporters!!!

  13. March 1, 2012 7:09 am

    So what did ya say to them?

  14. March 1, 2012 7:29 am

    I design my responses for max shock & awe and fun. Last time I got hit by a couple I directed the conversation into a talk I would rather not repeat right now since we were three of us. They took off and threw a shallow god bless you gibberish my way as good as any pretend pseudo christian mlmer would. Darn, what a closed minded couple. Notwithstanding the “bizz” they didn’t attempt to preach to me to change my…lost ways???!! I thought it was more than a “bizz” it’s a ministry. They had a 911 on a “lost soul” and blew it for jesus. Anyway the whole thing gave me quite a tickle 😉 Looking forward to the next encounter.

  15. djleaky permalink
    March 2, 2012 11:23 am

    All I know is DO NOT GET INVOLVED with LIFE/TEAM, and if you do, only to change your mind quickly, and try to back out…, they will make you do “Dog and Pony Shows,” to unbelievable degrees to get your money back. The “30 day money back,” thing is ridiculous. Never have I seen so many forms, emails, and “jumping through hoops,” to get a simple refund for an overpriced, antiquated book, and CD series. For almost two months now I’ve been fighting with LIFE Support to get my money back.

    On a brighter note, depending on how one looks at it, though my family members spent money they didn’t have on this whole, “send Orrin on his exoctic vacation’s just so he can take more pictures and put them into books with he and Chris Brady’s dumb quotes, and charge $24.95,”…, my son in law has decided to go back to work instead of listening to Orrin tell him to support a wife, and two little kids by pushing a MLM which will never put food on anyone’s table other than Orrin’s. Thing that makes me mad, is my family members spent two years with Mona Vie, and a year on LIFE, eating ramen noddles, and going without medical care. Orrin and Chris are tools all right.

  16. Speak Your Truth permalink
    March 2, 2012 12:54 pm


    Sounds as if they are making it so others have to jump through hoops to get what they are guaranteeing and what they are using as a ‘selling point’…

    No questions asked; 30 day money back guarantee.

    Not surprised that you would have this type of jumping through hoops, experience. I wouldn’t be a bit surprised and Imo, they are counting on most people just walking away to never ask for the refund because most don’t and then never have anything to do with them again. I hope more that quit follow through and hold them to the guarantee, like you are.

    Through our entire business experience; I don’t recall 1 person who got a refund from the Team Office, or the PC, it all was pushed off on the Platinum or turbo leaders to give ALL refunds. Clever how everything was pushed off on the lower leaders but Orrin & Co., ‘claimed’ the BBB rating and bragged about the ‘culture’ which most have experienced, it isn’t quite what they bragged it up to be.

    They forced the ‘responsibility’ on the leaders below them to take the losses, because it was supposedly, ‘their own businesses.’ Riiight… but those same leaders were NOT allowed in their ‘own business’, decision making. Orrin and the “Policy Counsel” makes those decisions and had those leaders had to eat all the losses out of their own pockets for refunds, certain opens, seminars, etc.. for the PC, who then made the decisions for your supposed ‘independent business owners’.. biggest lie ever, IMO.

    I wonder what the PC would list out exactly that every single ‘independent business owner’ actually owns all the way from the brand new guy they told to ‘get started’ in their own business, all the way to the PC and what part they ‘own’? That should go under the ‘questions’ thread.

    Sounds like if too many people begin to have the same experience you are having with; jumping hoops to get a refund, it won’t take long for complaints to stack up against them.
    What is the hold up or did you ever get your refund?

    If you can explain more of what they are doing, then it could help others, avoid the same bs to get their refund quicker.

    Thanks for sharing and Congrads.. to your son-in-law for making the right decison he beleives is best for his family. 🙂

  17. Freedomhaha permalink
    March 2, 2012 1:21 pm

    Another sickening story of TEAM garbage. Thanks for sharing DJ hopefully your story will prevent others from getting sucked in.

  18. Former Round Table permalink
    March 2, 2012 2:01 pm

    File a complaint with the Better Business Bureau. I know for a fact the office was adamant that they made sure any complaints were handled to the customer’s satisfaction because they wanted to be able to point to a good rating with the BBB. Not sure if that has changed lately, but it won’t hurt to have some complaints logged for future prospects to see.

  19. Lisa Sauve permalink
    March 6, 2012 10:54 am

    It saddens me that you have keyhole vision. What is wrong with bettering yourself, bettering your family, your friends, your neighbourhoods, your towns, your cities, your country, your world?

    Of course it costs money! Everything costs money. People buy self help books all the time! But what team does that is different, is they give you mentoring, friendship and community. LIFE does not HIDE the fact that there is a cost….. You pay for education. You pay for life coaches. You pay for everything in life. LIFE and TEAM give back. You get some back of what you spend. You get back what other people spend. More importantly, you help people.

    LIFE is not for everyone. I have seen thousands of lives bettered because people in the LIFE business and TEAM are genuinely helping people reach their full potential. They just don’t sell books and cd’s. They come to your house to counsel you. To save your marriage. To help with parenting, finances, health, fun and character building.

    How do I know this? Because that is what I do! WITH PRIDE.

    I challenge you to publish this side by side with your article.

    LIFE is an open book and is run by the top leadership leaders of the world. Not one leader, Orrin Woodward, but TWO TOP leaders of the world, Chris Brady. It was voted the best leadership business in the world!!!

    Its not a scam, its a way of LIFE, that teaches principals, character, integrity. It raises people’s confidence in themselves. Helps families grow and learn together. It raises humanity and social conscious.

    And yes, we all make money doing it. So does every other business in the world. EVERY ONE. Our competitors are Chapters, Indigo, etc, but we offer community, support, mentorship with the products. And yes, it costs money to get in, like buying steel toed boots for a job, you need tools for this job too.

    Lisa Sauve
    Independent Member
    The LIFE Business

  20. March 6, 2012 11:54 am


    Let’s start with a few questions related to your comment:

    1) Regarding the leadership guru status of Orrin and Chris. Read why this is a sham and fabrication:

    2) Who exactly voted this the best leadership business in the world? IAB? They “voted” Orrin as the best leadership blog, not the best leadership business.

    3) What’s the status with MonaVie and TEAM these days? How did that arrangement work out with TEAM over the past three years before the launch of LIFE?

    More legitimate questions posed to TEAM LIFE members can be found here.

  21. March 6, 2012 12:05 pm

    “Its not a scam, its a way of LIFE, that teaches principals, character, integrity”

    Thanks for this, I was having a bad day until I read this little nugget of humor.

    “LIFE is an open book and is run by the top leadership leaders of the world. Not one leader, Orrin Woodward, but TWO TOP leaders of the world, Chris Brady. It was voted the best leadership business in the world!!!”

    Lisa, you obviously have not read the facts on the leadership blog fiasco that orrin and chris are in. Orrin woodward is nothing more than a coveteous, idolatrous, vain, narcissistic, lying, anti-christ, scam artist.

  22. March 6, 2012 12:13 pm

    Dear Lisa

    What are your profits each year? Just bookkeeping numbers in dollars please? No story how wonderful LIFE is, how many friends you have, I know that.

    BTW Life is wonderful, you are right, but not OW’s LIE(F).

    Dear Amthrax

    Sigh, it seems that people sometimes have to fall very hard before they are willing to open their eyes. I never understood the biblical story about seduction but I am starting to understand it now. Why would God have given us brains individually if God wanted us to act as if we were one collective.

    Lately, I cannot stop the similarity these people show with the “borgs” (for someone who does not know, this is the most feared living entity in the Star Trek series that, with force, assimilates other cultures into one collective, and takes control over the thinking of the individuals without them even knowing. Sounds familiar?

  23. Former Round Table permalink
    March 6, 2012 1:07 pm

    OMG, Lisa you are saying you would come to my house and COUNSEL me, to save my marriage, to help with parenting, finances, health, fun and character building?

    And what, my dear, are your credentials? Oh, you’ve been to a few seminars? Listened to some CDs? Read some books?

    Let me tell you something, sweetie. I used to give those seminars. I used to be on lots of CDs. I was even mentioned in a few of those books. I was closer to Orrin and Laurie Woodward than you can ever hope to be, because I was up close and personal WAY back when. I watched the evolution of a great idea turned rotten and corrupt. I watched a man become an expert scam artist and manipulator of human emotion right before my eyes. He and his henchmen are EXPERT at deceiving people (who are willing to be deceived) that they are serving some noble purpose with their lives.

    You don’t want to believe it, but the only purpose you are serving is to put money, and lots of it, in Woodward and Brady and policy council pockets. Period.

  24. Speak Your Truth permalink
    March 6, 2012 1:28 pm

    Great Comments from all and BTW~ Me, I have been meaning to tell you the quote you used:

    “There is enough in the world for everyone’s need, but not enough for everyone’s greed” [Frank Buchman Remaking the World].” Amazing and Thank You~ 🙂

    Oh Poor Lisa Sauve~

    When did you get started…Yesterday? I have to reiterate; Amthrax’s question..And your comment here; is just histerical:

    “LIFE is an open book and is run by the top leadership leaders of the world. Not one leader, Orrin Woodward, but TWO TOP leaders of the world, Chris Brady. It was voted the best leadership business in the world!!!”

    I don’t think you realize what you have just said here or what blog you have found yourself on, Lisa.

    Where is the ‘votes’ in the entire WORLD that makes what you claim; to be so? Tell me you really don’t believe that amongst every ‘leader’ in the WORLD you actually believe..orrin & chris are the TOP? As Amthrax stated if you are talking about the IAB, then you might want to find out the truth before you state what you have. Please THINK about what you have said. Although, I could not stop laughing, it is quite a serious matter for you to spreading those claims to everyone. Please show us where you have gotten that data.

    Also you say: “And yes, we all make money doing it. So does every other business in the world. EVERY ONE. “

    Please show us the facts on where EVERY ONE makes money doing it. But Lisa.. you obviously haven’t and don’t understand the comp plan, take some time to do that? You can find that on here at the sidebar along with the Lief Policy & Procedures? You really should read it before you came here to comment. Oops…you gave your name on this site Lisa Sauve, so if I were you I would read the P&P and what you have legally tied yourself to. What they can take and what could happen to your ‘business’ by you being on this site. Good luck with that. 🙂

    Lisa Sauve, you are a prime example of why these scams continue. You simply are overly zealous, captured emotionally and excited with no understanding of any facts or truth about what and who you are really a part of. You are repeating exactly what you hear, are brand new and that is extremely evident by your posts.

    Do yourself a favor; please do your research, especially before coming to this blog or at least read the blog, where there are many decades of experience with the people (orrin, chris etc) you so blindly and falsely promote and are following.

    Trust me; it will save you a ton of embarrassment. I know you currently don’t know any better or have a clue. 🙂

  25. das permalink
    March 6, 2012 2:38 pm

    Lisa, Lisa, Lisa…where do you get off saying that your mentors help people with finances? Do you realize the many leaders speaking on Team’s stages giving financial advice and they have filed for bankruptcy?

    I know a guy that lived in a $900K home, had a great job, and a great life when he got into Team. He mentored personally with Orrin and Tim. He quit his job so the Team could boast of another person set free from Corporate America. He was on many CDs and spoke all over the country.

    Today he lives in an apartment and works 12 hours a day trying to pay off all of the debt that he accrued while he was with Team. This is directly related to the financial advice he got from Orrin, your number one leader in the world. His story is no different from the many people that “made it big” working their asses off to line Orrin’s pockets. He won’t talk about his days on Team, but I wish he would because he is hurting.

    I’ll pass on your advice and help, I am doing just fine now that I am FREE of Team. Orrin Woodward is exactly as Team Deception wrote above at 12:05pm today. Very eloquently stated bro!

  26. Freedomhaha permalink
    March 6, 2012 2:38 pm

    Lisa, Lisa, Lisa… this will be fun. Most other TEAM/LIEfers have better arguments than that.

    Answer this question: What percentage of your team is losing money right now?

  27. Vogel permalink
    March 6, 2012 5:12 pm

    Lisa said: “Of course it costs money! Everything costs money. People buy self help books all the time! But what team does that is different, is they give you mentoring, friendship and community. LIFE does not HIDE the fact that there is a cost.”

    The bottom line buried in your words is that LIEf offers one the chance to buy friendship. We all know that friendships that have to be bought have no value. No need to comment on that any further.

    Lisa said: “They just don’t sell books and cd’s. They come to your house to counsel you. To save your marriage. To help with parenting, finances, health, fun and character building.”

    So in addition to trying to rip people off by selling them these monotonous recycled worthless cult CDs, the distributors are now expected to act as marriage and financial consultants and to make house calls? The absurdity of that scenario needs no further illustration either.

    Lisa said: “LIFE is an open book and is run by the top leadership leaders of the world. Not one leader, Orrin Woodward, but TWO TOP leaders of the world, Chris Brady. It was voted the best leadership business in the world!!!”

    It’s the exact opposite of an open book and the company’s leaders have no legitimate basis to claim that they are at the top of any list, other than perhaps the $hit lists of quite a few people here. Do you not realize that those leadership awards are worthless and purposely intended to deceive? You should conduct at least some cursory research before belching out this blatant nonsense. Credible sources like Forbes magazine don’t think much of Orrin’s leadership qualities. They painted a portrait of him as the pied piper of a crooked pyramid scheme built around sales tools – in other words, an accurate representation.

    Lisa said: “Its not a scam, its a way of LIFE, that teaches principals, character, integrity. It raises people’s confidence in themselves. Helps families grow and learn together. It raises humanity and social conscious.”

    It’s a scam by every possible definition of the term; and one so demanding of its victims that they are expected to make it a way of LIEf. The so-called leaders do nothing more than pay lip service to all those positive attributes you mention; in reality they are lying, thieving, hypocrites, and they chew up and spit out far, far more people than they help. LIFE is clearly a liability to society.

    Lisa said: “And yes, we all make money doing it.”

    No you don’t; not by a long shot. Why lie about it?

  28. Freedomhaha permalink
    March 6, 2012 5:58 pm

    Vogel I thank you.

  29. Speak Your Truth permalink
    March 6, 2012 6:20 pm

    Vogel~You kill me..lmao!

    Das~ That is way too sad, make sure if you speak with him to let him know there are many on here who understand his pain, we are all rooting for him, and look forward to the day Justice gets served! 🙂

    He is not alone and will come back stronger and wiser because of his experience; with the Charlatans.

  30. No Team For Me permalink
    March 6, 2012 8:59 pm

    Lisa – “Life is an open book” – then ask Orrin about the $3 million he received from MonaVie after all those years of lying and claiming that he recevied nothing and was sacrificing so everyone else could benefit.

    Ask to see the books to see how much he was really sacrificing. Many have estimated he was earning as much as $400,000-$700,000 per MONTH on tools while he was claiming to be sacrificing. Why is it that noone was allowed to see the books?

    Why is it that none of us were ever allowed to know what formula was used to calculate profit-sharing? Why is it that people have now found out that some people with small businesses were paid larger amounts than people who had bigger businesses and these ‘chosen’ ones who received the larger bonuses happened to suck up to Orrin more? What kind of integrity is that in a pay plan?

    Ask orrin why Pastor Dickie, his own personal pastor wants nothing to do with Orrin. Ask Orrin why so many of his closest inner circle left after finding out the true orrin during the trial.

    Ask yourself, why would you agree to a policy & proceedure which allows someone to take your entire business away for any reason they choose without any true recourse?

    If they are an open book, then why did they hide the bankruptcies of so many RT’s and PC’s until someone on the internet found the information? If they were a true open book, they would have revealed it sooner.

    If they were a true open book, they would open the records to show exactly how much the PC members were making compared to their Quixtar & MonaVie incomes all that time when they tried to give the impression Quixtar & monaVie were their main income sources

    If they were an open book, they would not re-write history and try to make it sound like all these people give Team credit for their success. Many of Team’s biggest leaders had hit Diamond in Quixtar & Amway year’s before Orrin ever started Team.

    I could go on and on. Bottom line, stop trying to throw people off track by distracting people with claims of helping people. Team has hurt tens of thousands of people and lied, decieved and stolen businesses from so many people. Do some real research Lisa and beware, many people were fooled by Hitler and Jim Jones too.

    the above are based on my personal beliefs and experiences.

  31. humiliated permalink
    March 7, 2012 5:09 am

    Vogel, the whole “buying friendship” thing jumped out at me too. Lisa says “But what team does that is different, is they give you mentoring, friendship and community. LIFE does not HIDE the fact that there is a cost….. You pay for education”.

    I don’t know anyone that buys “friendship & community”, that in itself is fairly pathetic. Do YOU Have to buy your friends? Doesn’t that make you sad on the inside to have to acknowledge that? Seriously, how many friends outside of TEAM Lief do you have? Does anyone outside of TEAM Lief even talk to you anymore?

    As far as buying “mentoring”, the concept started out as a noble one, where a person would (free of charge) take another under their wing and help guide them and teach them whatever it was was that was being learned. No books were sold, no lifestyles sold, no souls sold.

    Would you like the definitions of a true friends,communities & mentors Lisa? Ones that will be there even if you stop LITERALLY buying their sh*t. I can guarantee you that you will not have a) b) or c) once the cash flow stops.

    This part of what you said terrifies me. I seriously just had a visceral reaction when I read this. “They come to your house to counsel you. To save your marriage. To help with parenting, finances, health, fun and character building.”. You understand that NONE of you are qualified to do this right?? You also understand that it is a prime indicator of a cult, non-qualified people instructing others on personal and health issues? Not only do you indicate that this happens within TEAM Lief but you say you also DO this. Stop it. You have absolutely no RIGHT to do this and you should be ashamed of yourself. You are not a marriage counsellor, a pediatric/child counsellor or a financial counsellor. You keep your sanctimonious, arrogant, unqualified & uneducated nose out of other people’s lives. It is bad enough that you take their money.

    Your competitors are Chapters and Indigo books? How is that again? I don’t see the salespeople from Chapters comiing into my house and telling me how to live my life…or that if I don’t buy $200 worth of books a month and sell those books to my friends, I am a loser and not trying hard enough. I don’t see them asking to bring my friends and family in to sell them books. Oh, I see…because you both sell books?

    You are involved in, and are perpetrating a fraud. I just hope that you feel some modicum of shame when this whole thing implodes.

  32. switch permalink
    March 7, 2012 6:00 am

    “Ask orrin why Pastor Dickie, his own personal pastor wants nothing to do with Orrin.”

    Now,….that one should be interesting. I’m sure you’d get a perfectly fine explanation from O. You think you’re up to the task, ms. Sauve?

  33. Over and Out permalink
    March 7, 2012 6:11 am

    “They come to your house to counsel you. To save your marriage. To help with parenting, finances, health, fun and character building.”

    Ya, this is not good. We had signed up some friends of ours and they were in the business for awhile but were having some marital problems as well as an addiction to prescription medication. Our upline saw this as a “project”! He told them that he could relate because he too was an addict. Now an addict of what he fail to mention to them, but because of long road trips with him we know. Are you ready for this….. Fast food Cheeseburgers! He feels the need to stop and eat cheeseburgers when on the road before showing the plan. Yes, I am aware that people have food addictions, but to compare his cheeseburger addiction to a prescription drug addiction and try to “coach” him through that! Also, the “mentors” in this situation were newly married with only one child which nearly brought them to divorce because they didn’t know how to work together as parents since they were always gone showing the plan, and now, within about 2 months of telling us this, they are out “repairing” other people marriages, marriages of people who have multiple children of mixed families and many more years of marriage experience which they are claiming to know so much about! Now I know these instances are not the same as those that have filed bankruptcy or foreclosed on there houses and then out giving financial advice. Or others who go out and tell you how to “parent” your children when the unmentionable is happening with theirs.(in my own opinion). This just shows the depths that Team goes to to keep everything within them because if anyone goes outside of TEAM for advice then the advice will not go in favor of the TEAM. LIsa, start asking more questions. As Vogal stated about “buying friends” just think about that. It is so true. The second you decide to be done with TEAM those “friends” will be done with you. And then you will be out apologizing to all your old friends who were actually your friends to begin with until TEAM told you they weren’t. Good luck to you Lisa!

  34. What the??? permalink
    March 7, 2012 11:58 am

    Sick, sick, sick that you have to buy mentoring, friendship, and community with TEAM/Lie(f). Last time I checked I can get all this for free, yes FREE, at my neighborhood local church. If I feel compelled to pay for community and friendship then I can buy some via the dues to my local Lions, Rotary, etc. club. These outlets provide true community, true friendships, and truly make neighborhoods, communities, cities, etc. better.

    The difference between churches/service clubs and Lie(f) is the sincerity in wanting to make the community better, not scam your neighbors out of their money.

  35. What the??? permalink
    March 7, 2012 12:06 pm

    One other thought, the health insurance plan provided to me through my employer includes life coaching. You just have to decide if you want to take advantage of it.

    So, why would I pay someone with no credentials to provide me life coaching when I’m already provided this. Oh, and the services I get through my employer come from people who actually have some real qualifications.

  36. Speak Your Truth permalink
    March 7, 2012 3:34 pm

    I second that Amen! 🙂

  37. Finally permalink
    March 7, 2012 4:50 pm

    Lisa is clue less as you have all pointed out. I can name 3 couple that our now divorced that got counseling from mu former up lines. I also know of deeply intimate details couple shared in counseling sessions with our former up lines. Yes they call it counseling and then tell others intimate details of their bedroom life to others while laughing and making fun of them. They are not qualified and should be held liable for their “advice”. They are dangerous and for every success story they claim there are 100 failed stories. Just in why I have witnessed in our team is enough to make you sick. They claim to live biblically and then they live anything but biblically. Arrogant, prideful and narcissistic ……….and they don’t even know it………..

  38. Finally permalink
    March 7, 2012 4:51 pm

    WOW das that is a shame

  39. Speak Your Truth permalink
    March 7, 2012 5:31 pm


    Is that what they consider ‘results’ from their ‘world class coaching’,?…how sad is that.

    This is what the ‘guru’ says about mentoring others:

    “Leaders must confront & address their own issues before earning the right to mentor others through their issues.”


    How does the ‘mentoree’ know when the ‘mentor’ has ‘confronted & addressed their own issues’ and would be qualified to take their ‘mentoring advice?’

    Do they have the ‘mentoring police’ checking up on all the ‘mentors’ so they don’t hurt others or how do they ‘measure’ when someone has ‘earned it’ and who holds them accountable for their ‘mentorship’?

    I don’t recall this being in their P&P. Do they ‘vote’ others out, take their teams and re-distribute them if they are giving bad mentorship or haven’t ‘earned that right’?

    Who are the PC accountable to, if they are giving bad mentorship?

    According to many of the things stated from 1st hand experiences and others experiences, it is evident no one is held accountable and it seems some have given some serious and terrible ‘mentoring’ or ‘advice.’

    IMO, the biggest and most dangerous issue is none of them are held accountable by anyone, anywhere, and they say their mentorship is free but we all know you are charged a whole lot indirectly for that ‘free’ service and none of them are qualified IMO. You are paying for that autoship and the ‘free’ mentorship is just thrown in?LOL

    They would just blame the mentoree anyway, for their bad advice.

    They want everyone to believe without a ‘mentor you won’t go anywhere and there is a lot of truth to that because of the favortism.

    Geez, How would they know who to favor or report on you too; something I know from experience that they do?

    All my comments are based on my opinions, and experience. 🙂

  40. freedomhaha permalink
    March 7, 2012 6:54 pm

    What a talented group of individuals are working together on this site in pursuit of truth. Great stuff!

  41. Natalie permalink
    March 8, 2012 8:02 am

    This part of Lisa’s post highlights the degree to which Orrin and Co. are capable of fleecing people:

    “LIFE does not HIDE the fact that there is a cost….. You pay for education. You pay for life coaches. You pay for everything in life. LIFE and TEAM give back. You get some back of what you spend. You get back what other people spend. More importantly, you help people.”

    1. “LIEF does not hide the fact that there is a cost”…neither do Universities/Colleges, ‘Life Coaches’, Therapists, Councilors, etc….what’s different with LIEF is LIEF members have no qualifications (as mentioned by other posters) to adminsiter such councilling or teaching services. Therapists, Councilors, Professors, etc. have qualifications and in many cases licenses to practice.

    2. “You pay for everything in life.”…Umm, you don’t pay for friendships, relationships, love, commraderie…but you do pay for these things as a LIEF member…to get around ‘leaders’ you always have to shell out $$ in the form of tickets or PV qualifications (i.e. spending more money on shit you don’t need or by scamming others to become members.)

    3. “LIFE and TEAM give back”…Like how they “give back” to their charity that Laurie, Lana, and other LIEFers are Board Members of. Can I get a “TAX DEDUCTION”?!

    This is my favorite:

    4. “You get some back of what you spend. You get back what other people spend” … so Lisa, you profit off of other people’s cash outputs. You profit off of other people spending their money. There you have it folks…Lisa confirmed to us unenlightened outsider failures that…LIFE is naught but an internal consumption pyrimid scheme…oh…OH…but they HELP people…and so what, everything is a pyrimid right? Big corporations, government, everything is a pyrimid…except they’re not.

    Cults are a scary powerful thing. It never ceases to amaze me how we humans are so susceptable to our own psychology if we’re not careful to not get caught up in emotion and ego…if we’re not careful to put our egoic thoughts on ice and critically examine facts, evidence, solid information and documentation…we end up like poor Lisa here, justifying making money off of people who are in the cash flow negative.

    LIEF is not a symbiotic relationship betweem members…it’s a parasitic relationship. The Parasite Council (PC) benefits off of the community by sucking every last dollar they can out of the group…the group bleeds cash never to be seen again. A few scraps are thrown out here and there just to keep the dream alive.

  42. What the??? permalink
    March 8, 2012 9:39 am

    As I reread Lisa’s letter, her “logic” almost makes me physically ill. Lie(f) is supposedly all about “community” and “helping” people in Lisa’s world. That seems to happen as a natural course of real life. My commuity has churches, civic organizations, help organizations (like food pantries, and homeless shelters), children’s clubs, etc. Everyone in my community benefits from these groups. I can get services from many of these groups for free. I get natural community from these groups, not the artificial community created with an MLM. The people in these groups actually sincerely care about each other. They are in it to truly help their community and their fellow man. They are not in it to milk their neighbors for money. I don’t need someone peddling a “business” to provide this for me. It is already freely up and working in my community. If you are truly about helping your community, I suggest you plug into an organization that is actually about helping the community.

    As for the autoship and competing with other booksellers, why is the local library/sharing purchased books with others mentioned as a legitimate option? Autoship sounds so controlling. Why would I pay for someone to send me a product that I don’t necessarily want that just creates clutter in my house? And, why would I sacrifice my freedom of choice in what media I want to consume? Aren’t you placing all kinds of unnecessary guilt on these people by forcing them to purchase something they don’t want.

    BTW – the comment about seeing thousands of lives bettered because of Lie(f) is just beyond comical. This “business” has been around since November. Really, THOUSANDS.

    I have been to standing-room-only funerals where the deceased gave of him/herself for the community with no consideration of ‘what’s in it for me’. I don’t think they will have that problem at Orrin’s funeral.

  43. Freedomhaha permalink
    March 8, 2012 6:58 pm

    Lisa? Surely we all must be wrong… help us fix our “stinking thinking”.

  44. ConnieF permalink
    March 8, 2012 10:29 pm

    Everyone is entitled to their option. Not everyone is qualified to give me advice. IMHO, only those who have done better than me/achieved more than me have earned the right to give me advice. Tell you what Lisa, fax over to me your profit and loss and your net worth statements. If you’re doing better in LIEF than I’m doing in my business, I’ll listen to you. Otherwise, as my granddad used to say “Opinions are like as*holes, everyone’s got one”
    PS As for helping others, I’m the founder of a grassroots charity focused on relief and development. Not one person has ever had to pay one dime to receive our help and assistance. Can’t say the same of LIEF now can you, Lisa?

  45. das permalink
    March 11, 2012 9:01 am

    Here is something I found on a lifer’s Face Book page:

    L.I.F.E. founder Dan Hawkins SAVED their marriage years ago through the L.I.F.E. principles and will be speaking on marriage as well as finances in Wausau Wi TONIGHT at 5:00. This LIFE Leadership growth program is sweeping NORTH AMERICA getting people their marriage, finances, family and LIFE back. Only $35!

    It reminds me of the CD by Claude and Lana Hamilton, they changed their story to reflect that they got started when they listened to some Team CDs…blah blah blah, when in fact the Team was not even in existence when Claude and Lana got started. Why the need for all of the lies? Claude has no doubt changed his story again that he listened to a L.I.F.E. CD and that is what changed his life years ago.

    Did Dan really use L.I.F.E. principles years ago to save his marriage? I was thinking L.I.F.E. just started last November.

    I remember asking my RT upline why they felt the need to lie like that about their stories, and he had no answer.

    To top it off, what an arrogant post…”Dan Hawkins SAVED their marriage”. Wow, what a hero, maybe he should be called “Superman” instead of Tim.

  46. das permalink
    March 11, 2012 9:22 am

    Did Claude and Lana really listen to a Team CD 17 years ago? That’s how long they have supposedly been with Team.

  47. Speak Your Truth permalink
    March 11, 2012 12:35 pm


    The Hamilton’s 17 years ago, listening to a LIEf changing CD?

    Sshhh, that’s a ‘secret’…That would have been an AMWAY TAPE…

    Who doesn’t want to mention Amway/Quixtar again, huh uh…thought so? Why do they all deny they were in Amway? We need Tony on this one?…lol

  48. Speak Your Truth permalink
    March 11, 2012 12:58 pm

    Incredible that these guy’s are into ‘re-writing history’..stories of how the ‘system’ is so life changing. If you were a speaker in Team they ‘guided’ (lol speaker guidelines) your speaches and were there for you to ‘share how the system changed your life.’

    It was Dream, Struggle, Victory.. as your ‘story’ line-up.

    . Most people have had numerous coaches, friends, pastors, parents, neighbors, grandparents, etc.. all through life that have had an impact and who have helped in ‘changing’ their lives, but the LIEfers don’t want you to give the credit where credit is due. They want the ‘credit’ for everything. This is a shame to deny others of their honor and credit.

    It is ALWAYS how great Orrin or Laurie, the ‘upline’, and ‘system’ are; you are to give ALL the credit to your life changing moments to those things. Trust me they will try and critique your talks either directly or indirectly (through someone)..especially if you aren’t giving them ALL the

    WHY do they do this? It is to control, what they want others to ‘believe’ and to follow suit.

  49. Finally permalink
    March 11, 2012 1:20 pm

    Dan and Lisa got a good marriage from team Lief??? Hmmmm let’s see, they took teams that didn’t belong to them, knowingly I might add, to get them to PC, that’s stealing another’s income. You can bet they are not telling their kids about how they got those teams and system counts, that’s lying, They have slandered team mates that have left to keep those that stayed in, that is flat out cruel and wrong. So let’s see, they have stolen, lied and slandered and do this in the name of what is right??????? Best of luck to them!!!

    Oaky, so if people knew the truth, the whole truth, would they still attend? Probably not and if you were a team Leifer and you came across a righteous man, let’s say Jesus (I am using him for effect) would he sit down listen to your plan and listen to your cd’s and join? Keeping in mind that he knows the truth…….I only say this not because I am above the Liefer’s but because they portray their business in such a way that they do no wrong and are only in it to help people and the evidence to the contrary is overwhelming. They are in it to get richer and richer. Orrin and the PC need a failure rate,( failure rate being the percentage of people putting more in the pot than they are getting paid out of it), of 95+% to keep their lifestyles. Many who understand the comp plan have explained it over and over again both here and in other forums. This is fact according to the numbers, so how in the world does that benefit someone? Especially since none of the team that I know of are qualified “marriage counselors”. They are taking advantage of people. I know of three couples that took marriage advice from our former up lines and I understand there are more than that, that have gotten divorced and the divorce can be directly correlated to team and the wedge driven between man and wife by the advice given by mentor’s. In my opinion that is criminal and there will be a day when we all have to answer for what we have done, especially those that do things in the name of Christ as team has so often done….. That day will not be pretty…………….

  50. What the??? permalink
    March 12, 2012 5:50 am

    These people claim that they are “leaders.” Leaders in what? If I want help with some problem in my life, I don’t want a “leader,” I want someone who will actually help me with my problem. Who are these people? Why do they think they are “leaders” in all these areas?

    For example, if I help with marriage issues, I would (for example) want someone like James Dobson. If I wanted financial advise, I would look to a Dave Ramsey. These people are actually leaders in their fields, but they don’t have to prove their leadership. And, this information is not a one-stop shop. Maybe James Dobson knows finances, but I wouldn’t think of him as a financial go-to guy. And, I wouldn’t consider Dave Ramsey as a marriage go-to guy.

    So, do Orrin and company really think they can compete with the likes of Dobson, Ramsey, etc. at the same time? If they can, why do they promote their “leadership” skills so much? A real leader has no reason to do that. These real leaders have worked hard for years building their skills and reputations. Appears to me that all Orrin has done for years is build his skills as a scam artist.

  51. switch permalink
    March 12, 2012 6:29 am

    What a crock of $hit. I wonder how long the “meeting” lasted? Anybody stay for the “night owl” on how to save your marriage? Who knows, maybe it’s still going….you know, the meeting after the meeting…blah, blah, blah. This is getting better, and better every day.

    5 1/2 months in on this new nightmare, and all of a sudden it’s, “sweeping North America”?????


  52. not signed up yet permalink
    March 13, 2012 12:33 pm

    Actually I would go to McDonalds Hamburger U and question their system, and I am sure they would answer my questions and tell me why they do things they way they do.

    Ask any TEAM LIFE person why they do things the way that do and see what responses you get.

  53. Speak Your Truth permalink
    March 14, 2012 9:57 am


    Isn’t it astonshing how they pretend to have the answers in all areas, in everyone’s life, but when they are held to their word they can’t pass the ‘acid test’; they fail miserably….and the only thing remaining.. is their hypocrisy.

  54. Chris permalink
    March 17, 2012 11:48 pm

    Your site has some truths and half truths. I’m writing in to share these with others. I have been in team for almost a year.When people are showed the plan the presenter, who is new is trained by the person who got him in. This.can.cause a problem in duplication if the person who got him in didn’t share.the plan which could have been taught poorly or somethings overexaggerated. My point is.this is a.word of mouth business andto get the whole picture I would.advise a new person to go to asK the person who contaced u to go to a webcast. Somethings.on this site are exaggerated and the.person who contacted u isn’t perfect and might be new, so its possible to.get the wrong idea of this business. The.leaders on the team are very strong and.are.growing. I believe this because there are.a lot of leaders. What is a leader: A person who influences others for a cause who has followers and builds other leaders. There is.a lot on team. On this site they claim Orrin Woodward basically to be a scam artist. Well first of all if he is, why does he have so many followers and leaders up and coming? Why would he preach integrity over and over and have it be a scam? I think this site is misleading, to say that Orrins intentions are bad. Who are.u to judge?

    So is team a scam? I asked this? What do want? Team is not for everyone. Do u want to improve yourself?Do u want some extra motivation in your life? are u lopking for some honest truth in your life, maybe a little wisdom. how bout to share it with others. The point is this. For me this is what I wanted anyway: heres some positives about team that ive found: It doesnt cost a lot to get in, work on improving oneself, I can learn prin iples from cds and business in car, I get payed for showing thos to others, We work as, we build communities which is neededanyway, build leaders, which is needed on this country. Are there negatives, yes as there is to everything, its called sacrifice. It will be tough, said by Orrin hiself, u will have to put some money in if u want do well(it is optional thou), also depends on how quick u pick things up. U will have to make a commitment. Once again the point I’m trying to make all on all is this: Team is all about long term success, if your willing to sacrificialice some short term things, u can be successful in this business. Team for me has helped me for the good, ive been better in relationships, the structure helped me to define my purpose, helped with my leadership skills, helped me to share my faith. have I made a lot of money, right now, no. But honestly I havent been doing the work. So on the business side I havent been successful, yet. MY opinion is if it works for u, do it, if there is good seek it, and if there is truth share it. I believe Orrin is the real deal, is his business perfect, no. He has taught good principles, which I find to be true. The info he shares I find to be inspiring and insightful.

    This business is not a rich quick scheme, as in any business there is sacrifice.

    as for me I havent seen another business like this. Have u? For me its a whole package: leadership, purpose, and all the 8 fs and yes I do plan to make money. Im in this business for all of these and.yes the community. So if u dont join or quit fine with me, its your life, dont waste it! This country is in a dilema, either we blame others or we start changing ourselves and start talking about real answers. There is good in team and they stand for good principles. Money is not evil, using money for evil purposes is evil. So the worst thing u could do is sign up for team nothing. So whatever u do, do something, for me and a lot of others team is something special.

    [Editor’s note: March 20, 2012: Added paragraph tags. Found this comment in spam moderation and just posted it. It was one of Chris’ initial comments on the site.]

  55. Freedomhaha permalink
    March 18, 2012 7:33 am

    Mesha- The way the PC uses faith is NOT a Christian principal. It gets me fired up how they abuse the Lord’s name in the sake of greed. Absolutely horrible stuff.

  56. Speak Your Truth permalink
    March 18, 2012 7:55 am


    I agree, very crazy! That is just it; it isn’t ‘Christian.’ It is corrupt to the core. Saying.. You are a ‘Christian,’ doesn’t make it so. More like the devil in disguise, Imo. Some see right through the dark façade, some it takes a long time and ‘wake-up’ call, and sadly the others fall for it. Do their actions follow their words?…Not in our experience; far from it! They go through the ‘motions,’ pay A LOT of lip service to ‘Christianity’, to earn others trust, mixed with a few other cult tricks, so they won’t ‘question’ anything! When Orrin’s mentor and Pastor (for years) have nothing to do with Orrin, the PC, or the Team; that should speak volumes to how ‘Christian’ they really are.

    Imo, they are believable fakers and very good at it right up until they get found out and are tested; but it makes for a good draw to at least pretend you are a ‘Christian’ and instantly gives people the ‘impression’ they can be ‘trusted.’ It is the worst kind of abuse, but they are good at using and abusing it. I know people who have questioned their faith, and many millions over decades have been tricked and damaged spirtitually because of it. Their twisted and justified thinking is that they have led a few to Christ… ‘so look at the ones we have helped.’ The end justifies the means in their greedy minds and hearts.

    Jim Jones, David Koresh, L. Ron Hubbard and many more, all probably claim they too, drew a lot of people to Christ, but did they really with a pure heart and gain that by others free will? And does losing and damaging many hundreds of thousands or millions collectively, to gain a few, justify it? I think not! No one knows for sure how they or anyone will answer for this, but I don’t believe there will be a ‘negotiation process’ or will they be told “Well done my good and faithful servant.” I don’t believe you will be able to trick, bully, twist the truth, or spin it in the end; nor use their justification of ‘see’… we gained a few…doesn’t that count for something? Justice does get served.

    #1 trait of all criminals, cult leaders, and scammers; they have to earn the trust of their victims first, and what better way than to ‘use’ Christianity to gain that unquestionable trust.

    All comments are based on my experience and opinion of course. 🙂

  57. March 20, 2012 8:04 am

    Everyone: Saw that one of Chris’ first comments on the site was in spam moderation. Just approved it. It gives some background on where he’s coming from.

  58. Speak Your Truth permalink
    March 20, 2012 11:01 am

    I couldn’t agree more, I believe Chris is going through the ‘process’ of cognitive dissonance right before our eyes and believe he is here because of his doubts. Why are you here, Chris? I believe He is trying desperately to convince himself of what he ‘wants’ to believe. Chris, no one here wants to make anyone’s decisions for anyone in their lives but we do believe you should be able to have the (hidden) information to make a more informed decision and that is something the Team doesn’t want you to have. Why do you suppose that is, Chris?

    We on here have obviously had some serious ‘negative’ experiences and found out the hard way. Ask yourself Chris, if something is true but seems negative, does it make it not true? Would you want to help someone if you knew they were being lied to? Why would the Team want to control the “negative truth” or information just because it is ‘negative’ but.. they say they ‘lead people to the truth?’ Why do suppose they have changed their name numerous times, Chris? How do you ‘lead people to the truth’ when you deliberately withhold information or try and cover it up? Are the facts negative or positive? How does this make sense, Chris?

    For me at least it has become a strong pet peeve of mine and have become a major advocate for free thinking, because of what I learned from years of building and ‘practicing’ what is taught on the Team. This is what I learned, the sh*t and whole shebang strips others of their free thinking and when you read up on cults from the experts ( the correct sources) and if you don’t see the correlation, then unfortunately Imo, I believe you will have a long painful journey ahead of you. Study thought reform, undue influence, and mind control, cognitive dissonance and then decide and discern for yourself. It could save you a lot of heartache, emotional, mental and spiritual distress, and regret.

    Chris we all went through the same ‘process’ , we know where you are and you are at a cross roads. You will either choose a road to a very painful process and losing proposition for the vast majority (see Life comp plan analysis) of chosing to find out through your own experience or you can learn from others years of experience and will see the facts objectively.

    BTW~ Chris you said: ” I don’t believe that Orrin is this liar that u claim him to be.”
    Chris, we know you would not see this, how could you, you said you have never met Orrin. You have only been bombarded constantly with the over the top (idolatry) ‘edification’ from every single person repeated over and over and over, there is a reason for this Chris, do you think it is by chance they heavily ‘edify?’ It is part of the ‘process’ to build trust and to remove doubt and can and do use it too strip others of their credibility in their teams, if ‘need be’.

    So Chris how could anyone expect you to know or believe our experiences? You are tightly controlled and trained to shut out all negative truth and comments and have never been around Orrin as many have on here for years.

    Does this seem normal in any other venue in your life, Chris? Is this how the Pastor of your church earned his reputation and builds trust from the congregation by having everyone in the church stand up every Sunday and ‘promote’ how great, honest, and Godly your Pastor is, create many websites to say so and repeat it every time is name is brought up anywhere any time? Or does your Pastor have to earn and prove he is trustworthy by his own practices? Is this a natural way people earn their reputation and trust in the real world, Chris or does that seem odd to you that in the Team it is automatically expected?

    Back to Orrin lying, Here is a major lie..We were promised passive, residual, ongoing, willable, B-type income, for the rest of our lives. Have you been promised this Chris? They stole our income by taking our profit-sharing team so therefore well over a decade of building numbers and bringing large volume and multi-millions of dollars to Orrin & the PC, just poof, gone! Does that sound like a lie to you, Chris? How about the B-type business, Chris? Do you think you own a b-type business? (again see P&P, the cold hard facts) Who owns the Team Lief business, Chris? How could you possibly have a B-type business if you do not own it? Another LIE, Chris.

    You obviously were not in when it was Amway/Quixtar, but that is where it all began, and has huge significance based on our experience, history, the system, and the deception practiced by Orrin (for 13 or 14 yrs) and the PC (they too all began in Amway). Why would Orrin want the majority part of the Team’s history being hidden? After all they are in to telling stories of how the ‘system’ changed everyone’s life, right Chris? You do hear this from every speaker, do you not, Chris?

    Does the speakers and Orrin tell that part of the history from stages every where they speak, as he tells all his other stories (Baseball cards & the U.S. ski team), does it seem odd to you he doesn’t mention Amway or give the credit for his great start in his guru career? After all he tells all but that. As a matter of fact, Chris it is highly unlikely Orrin would ever even have his own MLM scam, if it weren’t for Amway? Do you think that part of the Team history then, would be significant? That is where he has learned and copied everything from. But then again how would you know that, you have only been in a year? How many lies and use of deceptive manipulative practices does it take, Chris?

    Chris you are contradicting yourself in every defense you try and make. Remove yourself emotionally and use your common sense. Read the Life Primer, Life Policies & Procedures Analysis, Read a few of the stories.

    You haven’t read the Policy & Procedures have you, Chris? Because if you had you would have already known you aren’t suppose to be on this site commenting or any site that has an ‘opposing view’. (Read the whole section under online conduct in the P&P)

    (That is what I believe cult experts call “information control”). And you could lose ‘your’ (Orrin’s) business because of it.

    Compare the P&P and practices of Team with the information you read here; and see if you notice any connection.

    Good luck to you, Chris. You are going to need it.

  59. Freedomhaha permalink
    March 20, 2012 3:14 pm

    Maybe this isn’t the right thing to say, but Chris with your grammar you wouldn’t be taken seriously in the real business world. I don’t know the circumstances under which you are typing, but I will try to give you the benefit of the doubt. Everything that you are saying is pretty much useless until you can communicate in a an understandable form. Oh, that even what I can make out is off the wall crazy. I sincerely hope you see the light, brother.

    God bless those that are struggling and seeking truth on this site. The members of this community are here for you, and do a great job at helping you with troubled times. Leaving a cult is never easy- we have all been there!

  60. ian permalink
    June 22, 2012 6:02 am

    Ok so everyone is all jazzed about the life business and how its a scam right. As I am a first time reader of this blog I notice one point that seems to come up constantly. That is the aspect that this is a scam because u can just go to church. Go to church get the word of God and you will have all the exact info that this life business is selling! Life is a scam because you have to buy what the Bible gives you for free. So let us take a look at organized religion. Does anyone know how much a year the church brings in for profits? Billions !! Oh wait the word of God is free! Then how do they make billions a year in profits. Sure you can go to church and get a free copy of the Bible and BAM!! The word of God is free! But yet millions of people each year go out and spe nd hundreds of dollies for theultimate

  61. Speak Your Truth permalink
    June 22, 2012 9:28 am


    You say: “That is the aspect that this is a scam because u can just go to church. Go to church get the word of God and you will have all the exact info that this life business is selling!”

    Where is it that anyone on here says it is a: “scam because u can just go to church?”

    Definition of a scam:


    Noun: A dishonest scheme; a fraud.

    Verb: Swindle

    The definition should clear things up for you!

    No doubt you are a lifer and the rest of your garbage/argument about organized religion is a red herring, not surprising you are being trained/ controlled well, and I will get back to when I have more time.

    How many cd’s you listening to a day, ian?

  62. Brent Hansen permalink
    June 22, 2012 9:35 am

    Ian, what is your point/

  63. Kristin permalink
    July 7, 2012 5:40 am

    I have a question for all of you, or any of you. How do you politely turn down a good friend? I have been distancing myself from her for a long time now, and we miss our friendship. Now the only time she contacts me on a regular basis is when she has joined another one of these “cults” and wants to talk to me about it. Every time the name changes, she gets all excited and can’t wait to talk to me about it. If I ignore her for awhile I know the business dies and she won’t bug me until next time. Well now there is LIFE, and she has dropped off all the CD’s, ext. We want to go out for a nice dinner and catch up, but I don’t want to listen to it. I know that is all she will talk about. HELP, I don’t want to ruin what is left of our friendship

  64. July 7, 2012 8:31 am

    @Kristin – It’s difficult to decline the offer from an MLM member without them thinking that you are a loser/quitter/nobody. One idea is to preface your statement with something like, “YYYY, I deeply value our friendship that have developed over the past XX years. We’ve shared many great memories together — remember when we went out ZZZZ back out in 20XX? Wasn’t that great? I’d like to keep on building those kinds of memories with you. At this point in my life, I’m not interested pursuing this kind of business opportunity. I hope you’ll respect my decision and that we’ll remain friends.”

    I’m sure the other people on this site will provide you with some other scripts you can use. I hope it works out between the two of you!

  65. Speak Your Truth permalink
    July 7, 2012 10:09 am

    I agree with both Amthrax & Weblieved!

    Most important Don’t compromise yourself, stand strong, be honest and tell her how you feel. If she doesn’t accept your choices that you make for yourself and your life, don’t want to be involved and cannot honor them..and still be your friend… to me then I would question the friendship; is it one sided and will you have to comprise and do whatever she wants, just to keep a friendship? That to me is not a true friendship. If she isn’t willing to give you the same respect, then you may have to make a choice or perhaps back away as you have in the past and let it pass, until you can resume a healthy reciprocated friendship again.

    We know it isn’t easy and is what happens to all who get involved, too sad. What I have learned personally is true friendships reveal themselves, carry a mutal respect and those are the ones worth investing in.

    I wish you well and hope it all works out for you. Thanks for sharing.

  66. Brent Hansen permalink
    July 7, 2012 5:31 pm

    Politely? hahaha…introduce her to me, I will tell her. Just kidding, good luck!

  67. Speak Your Truth permalink
    July 8, 2012 5:58 am


    That is some good advice, and that is what I would do now, hahaha!

  68. Mike Collins permalink
    July 9, 2012 6:16 am

    Just remember: You haven’t really said NO until you’ve said it 7 times………

  69. Speak Your Truth permalink
    July 9, 2012 9:34 am

    So just get it over with No..No..No..No..No..No and No!..geez!

  70. Mindy Edelman permalink
    September 11, 2012 1:53 pm

    This is where you see the reality of Orrin and Chris being leadership gurus. It’s not a lie, it’s not bs. It’s the truth.

    Not everyone can do this business. You do have to have some money to start with. I pay about $240 a month in this business, I don’t know any business that has as low of a cost as that. Do you think you can run any “normal” business on $240 a month? Hahahahaha, I think not. How often do u, anyone, spend $240 on something each month that you don’t really “need”? Break down your finances to see where your money is really going. You’ll see why you never have “extra money” left over each week.

    This business does help ppl, will make you money, and can get you financially free. You just have to be willing to go to the meetings, read the books, listen to cds, and talk to ppl. Most ppl do these things on a daily bases, I just chose to read and listen to information, versus a romance novel or a music cd. I believe in the system, I’ve seen it work, and it will get me out of my crap hole job and I will be financially free.

    As far as the showing of the plan goes (as shown above) the term “money will be coming out of your ears” has never been said. Nobody ever said that it wasn’t a network market, in fact, they mention that “NETWORKING” is one of the four parts of the business…so, that was an unprofessional contradiction made by Mesha. If you’re going to lie, keep your bullshit straight! As far as the phrase “true wealth” goes…it’s never mentioned. Nobody ever has said to me, true wealth is having all the time and the money in the world. Not sure who was showing you the plan…Also, no one ever refers to this business as an MLM corporation. Orrin has been involved in other businesses, but team was not involved with them. Orrin trying out Amway, Quixtar, Monavie….or even starting off as an engineer, was basically something to try for him. Any of those companies is just like one of you getting a job a McDonald’s, then going to Burger King, then settling with Olive Garden. Just because he has been in other companies, doesn’t mean he stands for everything they believe in. He took the good points from what he learned in other businesses and put them into LIFE. He was never actually “kicked out” of Amway, they just didn’t like his ideas for the company and it started a argument, he left the company. Mesha mentioned in “the plan” that it is told ” hit power player and the business is paid for itself” I have never heard ANYONE say this and I go to all the meetings. “Not all about the money” has been mentioned several times. No, Orrin and Chris are NOT in this for the money, they already have their money. They are now helping other ppl get the income that they want, it’s simple. Lastly, NOBODY has ever said, wrote, or anything that Orrin and Chris are “Godly figures” that’s just ridiculous! They are both Christian men who fully rely on God and believe that with him all things are possible!

    Prove to me this is a scam. Not one of you has actually said how this business has failed you. Did the business fail or did you fail?

    [Editor’s note: Added paragraph breaks for better readability]

  71. Mindy Edelman permalink
    September 11, 2012 2:27 pm

    Kristen, just tell your friend that you aren’t interested. Even if you don’t believe it yourself, tell her that what she’s doing is great, and if it works for her, awesome. I fully believe in the system and in LIFE, but when someone avoids me because I want them to see this business, I just get pissed. I’d rather my friend just say the truth then to avoid me.

  72. September 11, 2012 7:47 pm

    @Mindy – You wrote:

    Orrin has been involved in other businesses, but team was not involved with them. Orrin trying out Amway, Quixtar, Monavie….or even starting off as an engineer, was basically something to try for him. Any of those companies is just like one of you getting a job a McDonald’s, then going to Burger King, then settling with Olive Garden.

    You are mistaken on many levels. Orrin wasn’t merely “trying out” Amway, Quixtar, and MonaVie, he was an Executive Diamond in Amway/Quixtar and a current (according to the MonaVie Field Leaders page) Presidential Black Diamond in MonaVie. TEAM, was directly involved with training distributors on how to build Amway/Quixtar and MonaVie businesses. Watch this video in which Orrin describes Quixtar as being the “greatest opportunity… the best one.”

    He sure sounds like he believed in Amway/Quixtar at one point. Watch Orrin’s MonaVie videos and tell me that he doesn’t (or didn’t) believe in MonaVie.

    Mindy, you’ve fallen for a lie. The truth will become clear when you read the articles and comments on this website.

  73. John permalink
    September 11, 2012 9:05 pm


    Orrin and Chris for years have built their reputations on a business full of lies and deception. The tragedy is that they know it.

    The business of “life” has hurt far more people than it will ever help. If you stay involved long enough you will eventually see this. But by the time you figure it out and leave disillusioned there will be many more hapless victims lured into this web of deception. Those unfortunate ones will take your place. And the cycle of devastation and destruction will go on and on.

    “You have seen the system work.” No you haven’t. You only see what they want you to see. The entire business is built on lies, false edification, and deception. Nothing in this business is what it seems. Most of those who parade across the stage for recognition at events are making nothing. It’s all a farce. Has anyone ever told you the percentage of people that drop out each month? No they have not. Nor will they tell you that. It’s the dirty little secret they hide from people like you. Oh, they have many dirty little secrets but apparently they are not troubled by any of them.

    You are a bold defender of these men. You think you know what you are doing. You don’t. By the time you figure it out they will have soaked you for more than you can imagine now.

    Your profanity and arrogance distracts from your message. The men you defend would be upset with you for that. At least the leaders you mention pretend to be Christians. They don’t swear in public. They do their swearing behind closed doors in private.

    Orrin was terminated from Quixtar. If people told you he quit they are either lying or have been lied to.

    You say Orrin and Chris are not in this for the money. Wrong again. Why don’t they take zero from profit sharing and give everything to their leaders, and live on the interest from all the money they have already made? Ask these knights in shining armor to disclose how much they make from profit sharing. They won’t tell.

    I can at least agree with you on one thing, that it is “just ridiculous” that Orrin and Chris are “godly figures.”

    [Editor’s note: Added paragraph tags for better readability]

  74. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    September 12, 2012 4:19 am

    You know what the sad part here is? I don’t think Mindy is trying to be mean–one can tell from her posts that she really does not understand Orrin’s and Chris’s past, etc., i.e., “trying out” comments. I don’t think she realizes the indoctrination (obviously) or how it’s colored her perspective—and perhaps is young? (I see so very many young couples involved as I study names and photos of just our branch in our state–I’d say it’s 95% people in 20’s?).

    Mindy doesn’t get it why some don’t to be solicited or want to listen to the spiel of the plan (quote: “when someone avoids me because I want them to see this business, I just get pissed”) as if the person she is talking to may not be a little wiser or been there/done that in their life previously. Mindy: it’s the “pissed” part that destroyed our family… your eyes….look at the true indoctrination. Look at what’s behind the “fired up!” hoopla. Example: one policy council member has said: don’t listen to or associate with anyone not interested, because they are likely broke anyway, etc.

  75. Former Round Table permalink
    September 12, 2012 5:40 am

    Mindy, Mindy, Mindy, you are so misinformed. Orrin was just “trying out” Amway? He was in it for 15 years! Started from zero and went all the way to Executive Diamond, and he even sat on the IBOIA Board for three years (only the top Amway distributors are elected onto that board by other distributors). Not only was he kicked out of Amway, he lost a $25 million dollar lawsuit against them! (He, Brady, and Tim Marks had to cough up $25M.)

    As for your comment that team was not a part of the other businesses that Orrin was involved in–who told you that? I happened to be in the actual meeting when Team was formed in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania in January 1999. Back in the Amway days. Before Quixtar. Before Team Leadership. Before MonaVie. Before Life. Team was there, all along.

    Sweetie, please never believe anything anyone on the Team/Life tells you.

  76. Former Round Table permalink
    September 12, 2012 5:50 am

    Mindy, you might be interested to know that in a “normal” business, the money you spend is often for something of value, like inventory, equipment, or other assets. With a “normal” business, you actually create something of value that can be sold or inherited.

    What you are spending in team is just plain gone. You own nothing. You are not creating a business for yourself–you are subsidizing those above you. You cannot sell your “business.” You can not pass it on to your heirs. You cannot even claim the income to take out a loan. Because it is illusory.

    Read your Policies and Procedures before you disagree with me.

  77. September 12, 2012 9:22 am


    I can so totally relate to you. You sound just like me many years ago, when I defended Chris and Orrin faithfully. I wish I could open your eyes for you so you could see the truth immediately and save you a lot of pain, but unfortunately it’s something you’ll have to figure out for yourself.

    Just a couple of quick thoughts to speed you on your way: I was involved in Team for 8 years (in their Quixtar and MonaVie days). My spouse and I went Go-Getter every month for years, we were also Power Players over and over. I think you could say that we “did the work”. Like you, I always agreed that not everyone could or should build the business, but I was convinced that we were part of the 5%. We were willing to do what others weren’t willing to do in order to have what others would never have and I think we had achieved that for a while. What I didn’t realize was how fast it could collapse on us when our upline decided to give our team to someone else. And don’t think they won’t do it again…NO ONE is immune.

    I recall constantly hearing from stage that “there is no “try”, only “do”. Orrin doesn’t ever TRY anything, he goes all out. This is referenced on many CDs. If you’re only going to try to succeed, you’ll never make it, you have to be ALL IN.

    Don’t believe for one second that Orrin has the best intentions and doesn’t need the money. He told us that for years and I bought into it. That’s why when he told us that he had done a benchmark of all the MLMs out there in order to choose the best one to go with after we left Quixtar, I believed him. Forget the fact that Team had bad mouthed “juice salesmen” for years. If Orrin said MonaVie was the best, then it must be, right? Only later did I find out that he got millions of dollars for making that decision. Trust me, he did not have my best interest at heart when he made that choice and he definitely needed the money to pay off Quixtar.

    I wanted so badly to believe that there really were people out in the world that held the same ideals that I did; people who would do the right thing even if it cost them. What I’ve found is that those people are out there and THEY ARE NOT ORRIN AND CHRIS!!!

    Mindy, I can tell you have a good head on your shoulders. Question everything, reason it out, and you’ll come to the right conclusion. Trust yourself!

  78. No Team For Me permalink
    September 12, 2012 3:06 pm

    Please do your research. “Team was not in Amway……Orrin was just trying those other businesses out…”

    99% of the TEAM leadership were all leaders in the Amway/Quixtar and MonaVie business.

    “You only spend about $240 a month”…….Give it awhile till they brainwash you some more. By the time you go power player, you will be spending considerably upwards of $1,000 a month for the right to be able to be out 5-6 nights a week, giving up all your friends, running up credit card debt before you finally realize it all started with a mere $240 of “extra cash that everyone has if they just tighten up their budget a bit.”

    Look at the Darkangelo bankruptcy papers. They are some of the biggest leaders on TEAM and pretty recently filed for bankruptcy with balances on their credit cards that will blow your mind. It’s public record. I believe they had over $100,000 worth of credit card debt when they filed.

    If only you know the tens of thousands of people who have lost thousands and thousands of dollars from these jokers.

  79. Freedomhaha permalink
    September 12, 2012 5:08 pm

    Mindy, What percentage of people on your team are making a profit? Income- expenses = profit, just to clarify. If you spend to long around Team you lose critical thinking skills, and your basic economic knowledge leaves right behind them.

  80. Mike permalink
    September 28, 2012 11:02 am

    Sooooooooo…. What do all you negative folks have that’s better for me and my family to thrive in the information age? I see no other way out of working for 45 years and retiring at the age of 72. Everyone that I know who is at retirement age has to go back to work after they retire. So what is your plan??????

    I’ve been apart of team for 3 years and the info that I have received has enabled me to teach personal growth and leadership to multiple companies. We have gotten out of debt. Me and my wife understand each other better and have repaired a broken relationship. The list goes on and on. Sure I can get some of these books from a book store, but why haven’t I over the years prior to getting involved in team? Because people will always find a reason to purchase something else other then something that will help assist the persons growth. While you guys are being glossed over by television subscriptions every month, we will be learning life and leadership principles from Team/Life subscriptions every month to get our lives on track while helping to provide solutions for the country.

    What are YOU doing to provide solutions for a decaying country???

  81. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    September 29, 2012 3:30 am

    @Mike: you know, it’d be real easy to actually get nasty and “negative” here, considering all of the implications in your note, but instead, I’d like to change my tune and get more thoughtful.

    Are these following points “negative”?

    1) Mathematically, this latest iteration of an MLM “Team” business cannot survive in numbers and hoped-for hyped number plans due to saturation and recidivism rates, the “Hitlar Youth Group” contract you signed, etc.,– if you count on LIFE/Team financially for your retirement, you will have to go get that J.O.B. anyway—so save now. From where I sit with my gray hair and hard-earned Social Security which I began contributing toward in the mid 1960’s, just for you to live as a very modest middle class’er, you should likely have no less than at least a half a million dollars saved—so if you stay in this group, remember to save–skip the mansions and yachts and trips if you do even modestly well, and make sure that most of your bonus commissions don’t go back into: tools, travel, meetings, etc., etc.

    2) Even the FTC has figured it out mathematically that anywhere from 96% and up will fail (please also see the mathematically work done on Amthrax)—so if you feel your marriage has improved, then perhaps the future financial losses won’t hurt so badly. The facts are, even those at the absolute top of this business have had foreclosures; other who have done very very well, have lost everything and have ended up just this side of destitute—the job for you will be to be able to stand strong enough to realize that shady dealings HAVE taken place—that they CAN and WILL take place—just read the contract you signed. Someday, if you build a huge downline leg, and blow your nose wrong at a meeting, you may see some of your own downline magically migrate to other upliners. It happens.

    3) Because you’ve been pulled in–because you are in the “vortex”, you obviously have not yet experienced the sudden realization that some practices in this business are so outside of the norm, and disturbingly not even as “Christian” as they claim. Some examples:

    A) telling people who they can and cannot talk to; having non-educated people hand out advice they are not qualified to hand out, i.e., don’t talk to cross-lines–it’s “verboten”. Did you ever ask yourself why? (An educated guess is: to keep their unpublished financial favoritism a secret and to maintain control–part of Woodward’s love of military infiltration and “domestication” to keep people dependent–why, he’s even written about it for you to read.)

    B) that Woodward (especially) uses this venue to promote his other business ventures and to heavily self-promote. Examples: he blogs to his minions, praising the views of questionable, rather marginal sectarian characters—all the while he is actually getting double-mileage off of his own publishing business, because the very character he’s promoting at present is the very character whose book he published. Now he’s encouraging all of you to read it, too—and his henchmen are all doing the typical “parrot-blogs”.

    C) the psychological devastation experiended by some in-depth members of all iterations of this business — hopefully, some day you will realize that what they have instilled in you, i.e., you caused the “failure” because you didn’t try hard enough or do it right enough, is actually bogus, but unfortunately, in turn, the blame and self-recrimination you will then shoulder is allowing yourself to be so duped, and wondering how it could have happened–the result can be long-term and may actually bring on post traumatic stress disorder.. This isn’t “negativity”—-this is the shared experience of people who were deep in the team biz for many years, earning many thousands of dollars per month. We should learn from them instead of viewing them as full of nothing but lies and vitriol.

    Psychologically, how else will you deal with it? Mathematically, it HAS to fail (they will NEVER get 1 million people in this as successful long-term members—and even if they do for a moment, they’ll likely have gone through anywhere from another several million people who joined and quit within weels—and if this iteration went on too long, you’d run through all qualifying adults in the US, for example. Behind the scenes, Woodward had already told someone who’s posting right on this thread that he knew his MLMs could never grow that large. It’s all just part of his warm, down-home boy facade.

    D) Ask yourself: why do the many-times-over multimillionaires puppeteering this business hate this site so much? Because Amthrax and others who come here are just non-visionary, jealous naysayers of another one of Orrin Woodward’s MLM schemes? Or is it, perhaps, that Woodward etal are afraid you’ll find the math, the court litigations, the bad experiences of other ex-high-up members and affected families who post here?

  82. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    September 29, 2012 3:55 am

    Please excuse the above typos and some adverb mistakes…so hard to type on a blog without a checker

  83. September 29, 2012 9:01 am

    @Mike, when you are wondering through life like a pony with the bridle off that don’t get you to the end of the trail and in MLM speak (as we were taught from, and also taught from stage) if that is like eating from a dumpster then most anything else is pro’ly better. So when LIEf shows up and offers you anything else naturally it will seem better than the dumpster has to offer, notwithstanding that that i.e. what’s on offer, is not necessarily the best and/or not most appropriate for you.

    I appreciate however, that presently you can’t see the forest for the trees and that your time there has to, and must unfold as it will in it’s own due course. In the meantime everybody else who’s not woody or woody’s blinded follower is a looser, right Mike, you know like the owners of all other MLM’s-DeVos, Van Andel, etc, Mack Zucks, Brad Pitt, Mitt Romney, Rev. Billy Graham, Archbishop Tutu, Dexter Yaeger too, Mandela, Dalai Lama, Condy Rice, oh some TEAMmunist needs to contact her now that she’s is jaay ohhh bheee-less so that she can stop being a looser. Just a few of the so many loosers on TV but hardly any MLMer on there “changing the world.”

  84. Mike Collins permalink
    September 29, 2012 9:55 am

    Ageof: I haven’t visited for a while. And I know i said i would no longer read your long posts.
    But, I must say, that was THE best post of your that I have ever read. Absolutely brilliant. You are figuring it out and perhaps already have…..

  85. Speak Your Truth permalink
    September 29, 2012 10:46 am


    Obviously you have to make your own choices of what it “best for you” but since you asked,…ANYTHING… that is not MLM, like keep the job you have or start a real business.There are thousands of ways to make an income. Unless you are into spending everything you currently earn on a 96% plus chance of never making a profit. Seems logical doesn’t it Mike. Study the comp plan video’s and analysis, that should be enough to at least get you thinking, what is “best for you.”

    Use your imagination. Here is an idea, go work your way up at MacDonalds. You will make more money and then spend your ‘freedom time’ going to the library and check out books “to better yourself.”

    Or better yet do some soul searching and spend some time in prayer until you find your answers of what is best for you and your family.

  86. The Truth Hurts permalink
    September 29, 2012 10:55 am

    Interesting, very interesting reading here. Now let us talk some sense.

    Ask yourself if this sounds familiar..

    We are your Family now.

    We don’t make money until you do.

    Your business is going to explode if you come to the next seminar.

    Tuesday opens are just like going to the office, you need to be there, even if you don’t have someone new.

    If you are not making money, you haven’t done the work.

    If the dream is big enough, the facts don’t matter.

    The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.

    Everyone going across this stage made more money than the month before.

    Are we a cult, are we brain washing? Maybe your brain needs to be washed!

    You don’t need to watch the news, we will tell you want you need to know.

    If someone isn’t good for you, if they are against this business, well, they are toxic, get away from them!

    Now lets look at what this drivel really means.

    Family – well, normal Family doesn’t expect you to miss out on things like anniversaries, graduations, cheer leader competitions, birthdays etc. You can never get that time back. This is mind control, and it is heinous. Shame! By the way, you’d have a better chance with the Adams Family in the long run.

    They do make money immediately! The minute you buy their tools, sign up, whatever, they make money off you, plain and simple.

    Your business will explode, huh? No, your wallet will explode if you go to another seminar. Haven’t you noticed how boring these seminars are? You can only drink the purple koolaid for so many ways are there to say the same thing? Admit it, you WERE bored stiff at the last seminar, not to mention sleep deprivation, which, by the way, was deliberate. You make bad decisions when you are sleep deprived.

    Tuesday Opens..any day opens..BORING. Why do I need to go if I don’t have someone new? Because you want my measly dollars, big time. You also don’t want the room one quarter full in case a fresh piece of meat does show up.

    You can work your heart out, but it is never going to be long term secure can look a potential fresh piece in the eye and tell them how great this whole thing is..but really, they will guilt you into thinking the whole fault is your that you didn’t make money. Vicious, really vicious.

    Are you Nuts? The facts always is called a BUSINESS PLAN..what is your plan, REALLY. If the facts don’t matter, go sit on a train track and don’t move when it starts to rumble and the whistle blows!

    True, keep doing this business, the same thing over and over, watch your group fall apart many times as you keep having to rebuild it, and still spend like wild on this BUSINESS. You are right, it gets insane. People will wise up and move on, and you will keep having to replace your group.

    No, the people going across stage probably got stuck with a bunch of tickets, or maybe (common) they bought themselves into a Turbo level. Maybe they don’t really have enough gas to schlep it back home.

    Keep listening to the mind numbing CD’s, better yet, go to the Seminar, then pay to listen to it on a CD all over again. Brilliant business idea..for the leaders. Take a chance; act just the same at meetings, but try not to listen to the CD’s for two weeks, then see how you think.

    Yep, you really don’t need to watch the news…are you NUTS! Business should not control your marriage, your personal life, why would you be in a business that only had you associate with just people in that business. This leads to the TOXIC idea..well, maybe your friends and family are worried about you, and they are desperately trying to help you..but keep on isolating yourself with your “business associates”. If you quit, they will drop you faster than a maggot filled danish.

    Just one persons opinion, based on total experience with this mess.

  87. Speak Your Truth permalink
    September 29, 2012 10:56 am


    For as long as you look to someone else to decide what is best for you and your family, you will never find what you are looking for. But from experience, I will promise you, you are currently looking in the wrong place.

    I and everyone else on here already know your fate with your current decision and you will eventually find out what we know or at least enough to know.

    The saddest part is IF you have bought into the MLM religion of “it is the only way”, then you will become an MLM hopper the rest of your life until you have hit enough brick walls to wake you up…until then you will believe all the lies and be suckered into NEXT one isn’t like the last one.

  88. Speak Your Truth permalink
    September 29, 2012 11:01 am

    The Truth Hurts~

    Excellent Post!

  89. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    September 29, 2012 11:24 am

    @Mike Collins: why, um, thank you :). I’ve never said you were wrong about the math, Mike. In fact, I’m waiting for more from you–I’d really love to know more about what it would actually take to maintain LIFE/Team’s Crown Ambasador Life Coach level on a full, consistent 12-month basis IF YOU BUILT IT ALL YOURSELF–this would be 20 teams generating 15,000 PV. Is it humanly possible to reach for more than 1 or two people? And also more about the truth about leader bonuses, etc.

    And to whomever posted about better luck with the Adamms Family—–LOL!! That was good!

  90. No Team For Me permalink
    September 29, 2012 3:07 pm

    We just threw out close to 2,000 CD’s and it felt GREAT!!!! Blows my mind to think of all that wasted money.

  91. The Truth permalink
    October 22, 2012 5:56 am

    Ugh….kids from my high school that I graduated with last year are all deciding to join this…..Ironically its all the kids that didn’t do well in school and have nothing looking up for them other than this business….They call me and invite me to their presentations…I respectfully refuse, but it seems that all these kids my age (around 18) are believing this crap!!! I try to tell them it’s a huge scam and they respond with “Tell me that when I’m financially free in 15-20 months”…… Firstly, most of these kids probably don’t even know what that means…. Secondly….No, you won.t You will be out more money than you started with. Ugh….it’s so horrible watching these people be tricked!!!!

  92. Melanie Morgan permalink
    October 22, 2012 11:54 am

    The Truth~

    Thanks for sharing, don’t give up on what you are doing, you are wise enough to see through this. Sadly these guys act like a gang, they know people are vulnerable and want to “belong” are looking for that or a “family” they don’t have, just like gangs do. But I think the gangs even tell you “how much cut of profits they will share”, the TEAM or LIEF doesn’t even give you that much!

    It is a shame they are targeting broke, hurting, high school kids. They think they are helping them, take it from me, it is very seductive process and they figure out your deepest desires and then play that to the hilt, then get you to believe they are the ANSWER! It is a very conforming (fake-ly) positive and “richly” enticing environment, most people get sucked in because of that and especially young hurting adults, will be sucked in very easily.

    Young adults are easy targets for them because they are “dreamers” of their future and of becoming RICH and wealthy, they are very trusting and will just believe them. They will pound them with indoctrinating messages, that they too can be “hero’s”, “have the life you always dreamed of”, and change the world …very enticing and noble…except one problem for EVERYONE is they don’t know or see the Pay-Plan is setting the MASSES for a guarantee.. FAIL.. and you will never get your “dreams” through that broken business model. You find yourself..losing and spending more than you have. Think about this Orrin Woodward has been doing this (through numerous name changes & companies for 2 decades), their results after churning though hundreds of thousands of people they only have 7 PC and all of them have taken or been given teams to have that Rank!

    You have guts, and believe you can help your friends. Encourage them to read and get clear answers about the LIEF P&P and common sense of HOW many have “really made it” in 2 decades, then ask what is “my odds” of EVER getting what they say I can. Ask them if they know how they are paid and if they don’t get an exact way or straight answer, tell them to run for the hills? Why would you “work for” someone who doesn’t tell you exactly how you are paid and exactly what you have to do to get that income? That should deter anyone. We trusted them with 13 years of our lives and they stole our business and many others, right out from under us without and explanation!!

    They mislead everyone and then others falsely believe they own their own business, and will have everything they say you will but YOU own NOTHING, they can and will take it. The will be told t is pipeline, residual, and will-able income and they will have the PC lifestyle they say you will get if you just don’t “quit” and “follow the system”…not true. Learn the comp plan on here from Mike Collins, video’s!

    The truth is the odds are better to play the lottery! Good luck with your friends, arm yourself and you will help them. 🙂

  93. November 11, 2012 11:37 am

    Glad that I found this site! Got the followup meeting tomorrow with one of the poor misguided souls. Going to politely but firmly tell him no and let that be that.

  94. Freedomhaha permalink
    November 11, 2012 2:57 pm

    David- You don’t know how much trouble you are saving yourself. For fun ask them what percentage of their TEAM is making a profit.

  95. November 12, 2012 8:34 pm

    By the way, the guy who met me last week, brought a buddy. I ended up dominating the conversation (having the gift of gab has it’s advantages). Turned on the Air conditioner, and left a pot of stew in the crockpot to make the apartment smell good. So, they had a cold room, with good rich smelling food. (By trade, I’m a technical trainer with a ministry background. I know how to make an environment uncomfortable) His buddy went for the hard sell. Told me that i hadn’t listened to enough CD’s to make a decision. (Has anyone checked these cd’s for evidence of neurolinguistic programming? NLP can make a person highly suggestive. With the rate they push people to listen to the cd’s makes me wonder if there isn’t something more on there.. ) After I politely told them no repeatedly, they tried one last time when I stopped being friendly and said that it’s a firm no. They never got to go into the presentation and beat a hasty retreat. David – 1 TEAM LIFE – 0. Flawless Victory.

  96. Melanie Morgan permalink
    November 13, 2012 10:01 am


    Hahaha! I found your experience funny, thanks for sharing! Thank goodness you have your critical thinking in tact! 🙂

  97. Tlefeelsduped permalink
    December 11, 2012 9:16 pm

    You are dead on. Just joined what.. I dont know…asked questions..didn’t get copy of what I signed..rushed through enrollment…they enrolled me and didn’t bother to tell me for what. Kept saying read , listen to cds and watch dvds…same crap. I bumbled around on my business site and found out I had been signed up for monthly subscriptions and seminars without my knowledge…and they had my credit card.!!! A pastor invited me to a meeting, at a politicans home…….flag one! When I questioned the plan and how much I was originally

  98. December 13, 2012 6:06 am


    NLP is all over the CD’s. It’s worked a good one on the poor saps they are, as David Brear said, effectively “intellectually castrated.” They call it changing your thinking to success thinking. It’s just plain brainswashing.

    Good job with those cultist critters. I wish you would think up something else to have fun on them if you had the time, I am sure it would make for good reads.


    A pastor, a politician and a TEAMmunist scam… this stinks so bad it’d knock a buzzard off a gut wagon.

    What’s next for you with this scam?

  99. Tina permalink
    December 15, 2012 6:40 pm

    Perhaps I haven’t read enough of the comments, but I am curious as to WHAT, exactly, there is wrong with LIFE. You say you didn’t make money doing it? Ok, that was you. I didn’t make money selling pots and pans, but I know plenty of people who did.
    I’m not arguing for LIFE, here, I’ve only just begun to look into it, but I think that, to debunk something, you need to have facts and details where I’ve so far only seen rants of rage and name-calling. I want to get a clear picture of this program, not biased hate-feed on a blog.
    Someone please give me a REASON.
    Because their system is too much like Amway? Amway sells overpriced products, from what I understand LIFE sells comparitively-priced self-help information.
    Because you don’t like OW or CB? How many of you shop at Wal-Mart? Want to know Sam Walton’s policies?
    So, here are the questions I would like answered, because – in my opinion – they are actually relevant.
    Do they destroy other businesses?
    Do they take more time from you than they say they will?
    Are you really not getting any information when you buy in?
    Do you end up paying more than they initially tell you?
    Do they make it difficult to do anything else besides network for them?
    Do they demand results from you if you aren’t achieving a “quota?”
    Do they set up false compensation plans and do not pay you for the work you have done, accordingly?
    Thank you to anyone who can give a clear, concise and honest answer to my questions. I will demand the same from the “TEAM” if I choose to attend their seminar.

  100. December 16, 2012 5:56 am


    Do they destroy other businesses?
    Do they take more time from you than they say they will?
    Are you really not getting any information when you buy in?
    Do you end up paying more than they initially tell you?
    Do they make it difficult to do anything else besides network for them?
    Do they demand results from you if you aren’t achieving a “quota?”
    Do they set up false compensation plans and do not pay you for the work you have done, accordingly?

    1) There are a number of people on this site who claim that their businesses were negatively affected by their upline leaders. Read their stories on this site (look at the links on the right-hand side of this page).

    2) How much time do they say it will take to build this business? A few hours a week? 40 hours a week? If you want to have a big and profitable business, you’re going to be spending a lot of time. You’ll be attending at least one seminar a week (weekly open), one seminar a month, and three to four major conferences a year. You’ll spend hours in the car and hours attending meetings with prospects and your upline/downline. Don’t forget all the time that you’ll spending reading and listening to TEAM/LIFE products. Add them all up, and it’s going to be a lot more than a few hours a week.

    3) There’s a lot of information that they don’t tell you initially.

    4) If you really want to build the business, you’ll be encouraged to stop associating with people who are not building the business. You’ll be encouraged to not do anything that doesn’t further your business. As you get more involved with TEAM/LIFE, your mindset will change such that you will think that doing anything other than TEAM/LIFE is not productive. That’s the point when they’ve really got you sucked in and brainwashed.

    5) You certainly won’t get as much face time with your upline leaders if you aren’t making progress in building your (and their) business. They will tell you to keep buying their tools to get better at building the business. Remember that buying their products (LIFE products and TEAM tools) helps their bottom-line.

    6) There is the TEAM Director’s compensation plan, details of which are not publicly known, and the LIFE compensation plan, which is outlined in your signup documentation. As stated in (1) there are examples of ex-TEAM members who feel they were cheated out of TEAM Director’s income. Again, read the rest of this site for more details.

    Let us know if you have further questions.

  101. Freedomhaha permalink
    December 16, 2012 6:53 am

    Tina- At least 97% of people lose money. For me that is an open and shut case. In order to grow your business you have to steal from others.

  102. TruthSeeker permalink
    December 16, 2012 7:08 am

    Tina at the root of their so called “business” lies a mathematical equation that is as powerful as the law of gravity. No one can defy mathematics. It is those very foundational mathematics which create a win-lose scenario, and require massive deceit in every other detail.

    If you knew with a 97% certainty that leaping off of a bride would result in imminent death, would you still chose to jump? There is a 97% certainty that if you engage with Lief that you will experience a very similar “FINANCIAL DEATH”. Go ahead and defy gravity if you will, or continue to seek for truth and be spared the pain.

  103. Freedomhaha permalink
    December 16, 2012 7:22 am

    Truth- Not only that, but if you survived the bridge jump you would severely hurt your friends and family.

  104. TruthSeeker permalink
    December 16, 2012 7:44 am

    Great point Freedomhaha, thank you!

  105. Freedomhaha permalink
    December 16, 2012 8:19 am

    I know we use the 97% number on this site a lot, but after thinking I really think that it is underselling it. I personally don’t consider it a success if you make a profit by stealing from others. The real number here is 100% lose at this business. Most lose money, time, and relationships, but a select few (3%) just lose time and relationships. I don’t know you a person can operate this “business” in good faith knowing that it is a lose-lose-lose prospect.

  106. Mike Collins permalink
    December 16, 2012 12:02 pm

    Amthrax: those are great answers to Tina’s questions. I honestly doubt she was really interested in you answering them though IMO.

    Her comment reads like someone already in Team to be honest with you…..I find her abbreviation of orrin’s and chris’ name vey interesting.

  107. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    December 16, 2012 12:41 pm

    Mike: yup, ditto on everything you wrote last here, especially about already being a member.

  108. December 16, 2012 2:53 pm

    It’s possible that she was posting until false pretenses, but I will give her the benefit of the doubt here. We have to show those on the other side of the plan — and those looking at the business — that we are genuine and care about their financial well-being with regards to this dubious “business opportunity.”

    If TEAM/LIFE members post under false pretenses, that’s their problem. It shows to me that they aren’t exactly practicing what they preach.

  109. TruthSeeker permalink
    December 16, 2012 4:50 pm

    orrin and company, my second quote for your den of thieves.

    “No real success, no lasting happiness can exist except it be founded on the rock of truth. The prosperity that is based on lying, deception, and intrigue, is only temporary—it cannot last any more than a mushroom can outlive an oak.”

  110. No Team For Me permalink
    December 17, 2012 7:55 am

    Mike Collins – I agree. I believe Tina was another Team troll. Wouldn’t be surprised if she abbreviated Orrin Woodward & Chris Brady’s name as OW & CB because she didn’t want another tag being logged with their name in case google’s logarithm picked it up and led more people to this site.

  111. finally permalink
    December 17, 2012 8:44 am

    Tina asks the wrong questions, at least from a business perspective. First and foremost ask to see at least 3 years of business reports from the person recruiting you, if they do not have that time in yet get it from the up line they are telling you is “making all kinds of money”. The income and expense information they file with their taxes is what you are looking for. Remember you are buying into a business they claim so the first thing you want to know is that it is a business, hence the tax filing and second are they making the money they are claiming. Remember Orrin Woodward never spends over a hundred dollars without sleeping on it and buying into a business takes much more than a nights rest to decide and to do your due diligence. It is funny that Orrin Woodward and Chris Brady claim they are masters at business but never once give the right recommendation to new recruits as to how to go about buying into a business. Could that be that they are hiding something?? Ask Orrin Woodward what it would take for him to buy into a business with his own money.

    As far as the time commitment Chris Brady in on record stating that you do not tell the “new” guy that you have meeting that go on till one in the morning. He said you will scare them away……..Lying by omission. They also state that it takes four Tuesdays and one Saturday a month to get financially independent. Not even close………In fact after you sign up they tell you that that is what the amateur does……….Lie by commission.

    It’s only $230 to sign up to own your own business is what I personally was told. NO, that is just the initial sign up, Minus the on going cost of doing team which can quickly add up to $500 plus dollars a month not including gas and your time….Another lie of commission.

    And the worst lie of all is they tell you you will get more family time through building of the business………….Refer to the stories of former huge leaders John and Melanie Morgan and Raquel peters on this site. Our up line used to brag about seeing his kids all day and leave the house at 4 or 5 PM while returning home well after 10PM most nights building the business. The exact time frame most people spend with their children, when they are needed home, after school hours and before bed time.

    You see Tina this is not hate, but rather, truth, of what the team actually is. If you do not believe this site ask any of your up lines that are financially independent to show you their income and expense reports and exactly how they get paid, ie the pay plan formula that is based on numbers. I once asked my up line PC what it would take to make 100K per year in Team, his answer, and I quote, “it’s hard to say’. This from a guy that sits on the policy council.

    So Tina, go ahead and report back to us. I am sure your up line will have no problem sharing the truth with you, after all……….Team is all about the truth…….aren’t they??

  112. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    December 17, 2012 10:36 am

    @finally: excellent post, and oh, SO true from an aging parental perspective after standing up and “getting into it” with an almost-middle aged adult child. Simply put: I had Teamisms spewed at me. I was lied to. Team sheister pontifications were parroted and spewed by the then latest inductee “victim” who’s prone to these types of schemes.

    Lucky for me, in-between phone calls, I had found the Amthrax site and gotten educated…..I clicked on links going right to records and irrefutable proof of how this organization operated, so by the time of the last phone call, I could say without reservation: “you are either mistaken or lying to me: the money you want from me is not for ‘a book’ but a membership in something I have no interest in, nor would I ever support. Next I got told I had been signed up to attend a meeting. Me: “You did WHAT?! You signed me up to attend a meeting?”

    Whoa, it deteriorated from there, into utter disrespectful accusations against the aging parent by an adult child. (Is this, too, promoted as a way to not listen to ‘naysayers’, I wonder?)

    By the time we were done with each other, I suggested my grown child go to a counselor and get help before contacting me again—the disrespect was that great, after standing by this adult for a lifetime in love and support.

    This, of course, is in direct opposition to the lie told about me at that other blog site that’s clocking how many posts I make here, along with Raquel, with the site claiming I was just an “an abandoned mother.” Sorry to disappoint them, but I don’t tolerate the disrespect that which was dished out that day–and a LOT of it was parroting, but the tone of voice was not, of course.

    And if your money listed is correct, I’m doubly-pissed because just days prior, I and spouse bought that family a nice used vehicle because supposedly they didn’t have any money, either. And that had come on top of a previous $1500 to help out the family just two months prior to this “new money losing gig.”

  113. freedomhaha permalink
    December 17, 2012 10:47 am

    Wisdom- Thanks for your work on here. It shows that the victims of TEAM go well beyond just the people that are actually in the cult. The family is also crushed as well.

  114. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    December 17, 2012 11:12 am

    @Freedom : thank you. Oh, and hey, my prior post just goes to show that persons with the abhorrent J.O.B. (‘just above broke’ dopes, according to the disrespect of LIFE/Teamers, including PCs espousing this very putdown on their own blog sites this past summer [but which have likely deleted them by now to further promote their saintliness and good will while suing Raquel, etc.]) must, at times, bail out members who have joined to make that amorphous, fake fabled fortune along with another planned-on millions of people more (not just a million anymore–I saw this word pluralized on one of their blog sites), who will somehow get rich or even richer from the leadership claptrap and CDs/books (but of course, when they fail, it’ll be just their own fault and on the brink of Post Traumatic Stress Disorder). (PS: Well, now I suppose I’ll get accused publicly again by LIFE/Teamers of being on here to spew my Atheism–which merely means: without theism– against their profound, superficially family-oriented but, in truth, distorted religiosity as they pick the pockets of their underlings with sketchy payment plans and impossible promises, etc.) 🙂

  115. freedomhaha permalink
    December 17, 2012 12:09 pm

    I read online Tweets from TEAMsters about what number PC they are going to be. OW says that in order to go to 1million they need lots of new PC members. Since they haven’t added a new PC in how long looks like they might not being going in the right direction.

    Here is a question: If TEAM was growing like they said it was wouldn’t they need new, bigger buildings for meetings? They have used pretty much the same places for years. I remember the CD’s that talked about them “breaking down the walls” of the areas, and finding bigger ones. Guess that just forgot because they would never lie.

  116. Resist permalink
    December 17, 2012 2:22 pm

    Tina, you’ll find on this website that it’s the same handful of people tirelessly complaining about a business, LIFE, that most all of them have never built.

    The products are good and fairly priced. If you don’t like them, stop listening, reading, attending events, and sharing the plan.

    Spend as much time building it as your dreams and goals require of you, not what another person requires of you.

    The value of the LIFE information gets ripped on this site. I’ve talked to adults that are now working hard on their family’s relationships as a result of the information and association from LIFE and gladly pay for their subscription each month. There ARE marriages being saved, finances being repaired, and many great success stories.

    The comp. plan gets ripped on this site. The assumptions by non-members that the volume model doesn’t work. That’s wrong. I have more than 1 customer. The comp plan requires you have at least 1 after your first 6 months. Our customers have all thanked us for the information, and have been customers for over a year. Our volume is fine, as is our income.

    The people on this site will ask how many people in my group are making a profit or making money. That’s not my responsibility any more than it’s my responsibility to make sure the LIFE detractors on this site have a job income. In LIFE you sign up as an independent member, responsible for your own success. Any help you get from your team is a blessing…you’ll likely find you get a lot of help.

    I will not address all the talk that, years ago in TEAM, ‘I lost my business’, ‘they stole my business’, talk etc. I have opinions about what happened. What you find on this site is that the events are processed through their perception and therefore becomes their experience. I personally went through some trials with upline and downline teams and have my own perceptions. I will say that I have always understood my relationship with LIFE, Team, and have always been treated more than fair. Yes…more than fair.

    LIFE pays better than any other home business in networking…period. The trips are amazing rewards and are achievable so much faster than any other company is doing.

    Helping people and making money while doing it is a good thing. LIFE isn’t for everyone, but other than water and oxygen, nothing is.

  117. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    December 17, 2012 2:31 pm

    Well, now I’d say: don’t listen to any of us…go read what the Federal Trade Commission has to say about this structure of an MLM, which isn’t even in the “got a real product” category and see what your odds are of doing as well as RESIST says —LOL!!! C’mon, RESIST: show yourself and your big income. Go ahead, I dare ya…no I double dare ya to be as brave as Raquel has been. Likely, you are NO WHERE NEAR where the upper eschelon of the Morgans were or even as high as Raquel was—stop blowing false farthoods here What a bunch of well-worded hocus pocus—again, another coward afraid to give the actual financial stats. Pffffffft!

  118. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    December 17, 2012 3:05 pm

    And while you are at it, Resist: show us the actual, factual statistics on HOW many marriages have been so-called “saved” just due to reading some books and listening to CDs and getting advice from folks ranging from auto mechanics to physical therapists, etal.

    Gee, if it were that easy, I guess there’d be NO need for anyone but THIS organization in the following categories: Family, Fun, Finances, Following, Faith, Fitness, Freedom, Friends. Oh, and let’s not forget the lovely attempt to pull out of context the history of western civilization and US history, etc., in blogs; let’s not foget that part of the brain-washing will include readings from marginal characters who can’t even get their own “college” accredited, etc., but said main founders of this biz are actually printing his books, so again, double-duty exposure/income.

    Ahhhh, but don’t forget, if your friend and long-term neighbor is in a cross-line from you….ooopsie daisy….don’t associate with that person, either. Ahhh, another oopsie daisy: I wonder why the need for such an intrusive, “parental” LIFE subcontractor contract that needs to be signed. Hmmmm, could these last two oopsies be because there’s something to hide?

    Oh, my, another oopsie daisy: why lookie here…I guess the money ain’t so good after all…multiple bankruptcies of some folks who were among the gilded few to make money outside of the perpetrators of what’s now at least 3 iterations of the biz.

  119. OhBeJoyful permalink
    December 17, 2012 4:02 pm

    Resist says: “The people on this site will ask how many people in my group are making a profit or making money. That’s not my responsibility …”

    When I read the above statement this quote came to mind: “Success has many fathers, but failure is an orphan.”

  120. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    December 17, 2012 4:40 pm

    Oh, my, I forgot my favorite part of the LIFE/Team “EDUCATION”, and I hereby swear statements to these effects (in other words, paraphrased here without changing meaning or intent) existed on both LIFE/Team Stealth fB and Twitter, posted there by a LIFE/Team PC and so-called “founder”, sometime after 8/10/12, because I read them and posted my astonishment about them over and over and over here on Amthrax…but as long as there’s two sophomoric “team plants” visiting here today:

    1) In essence: Are you afraid to get into the biz? If you are in fear of it, you might must piss yourself and smell of it as a result, instead of smelling the success. (Actual quote by this “founder” and PC can be found in another older thread on Amthrax–I know, because I posted it.)

    2) By virtue of being POOR, one has a proclivity toward committing murder. That’s right. You read that right. A copied quote by a “founder” and PC; can originally be ascribed to the philosophy of R. Gage. If you ask me: the perpetrators of such filth should be arrested for promoting hate crime intent.

  121. Freedomhaha permalink
    December 17, 2012 4:42 pm

    Resist- What percentage of your TEAM is making a profit?

  122. Freedomhaha permalink
    December 17, 2012 4:45 pm

    Resist- I do think it is important that you are setting 97% up for failure. What part of that is tough to understand? You need these people to lose money so that you can make money.

  123. TruthSeeker permalink
    December 17, 2012 4:59 pm

    @Resist, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. We won’t discuss your opinion, however, you wrote, “LIFE pays better than any other home business in networking…period. The trips are amazing rewards and are achievable so much faster than any other company is doing.”

    That is horseshit! Dozens of companies that pay better. You don’t know squat.

  124. Freedomhaha permalink
    December 17, 2012 6:01 pm

    Resist- I think it says a lot that your comment is posted here. You know darn well that anything I ever wrote would never, ever make it on a PC blog. Really all you need to know.

  125. No Team For Me permalink
    December 17, 2012 8:56 pm

    Okay, which team-troll is resist? Orrin, Chris, Tim? They are masters of distraction from the facts. They should be magicians – watch the left hand while they hide something with the right hand.

  126. Mike Collins permalink
    December 17, 2012 10:59 pm

    resist said: “LIFE pays better than any other home business in networking…period.”

    PATENTLY FALSE!!! orrin and chris are full of it!!

  127. I QUIT (and glad I did) permalink
    December 18, 2012 8:39 am

    Thanks resist. I now realize that I’ve been commenting about experiences in a different business. Team IS all that and a bag of shit. Oops. I mean chips! Sorry.

  128. Mike Collins permalink
    December 18, 2012 11:50 am

    Laws are only effective when enforced Raquel. This industry has a lot of “laws” that are supposed to govern it and yet……..we have the industry as it is. We have people like orrin plying his “trade” LOL

  129. Matt Miller permalink
    December 18, 2012 11:55 am

    May i ask you guys something that really matters? If your so confident that Life and OW and CB are scams.Then would you mind telling us what you guys are doing that truthfully is supporting an income an providing the dreams you and your family has always dreamed of, and by the way is it something that truly serves the customer in the way that helps him be more successful, and will it make a difference in the freedoms of our country in the next 100 yrs? Does it build relationships with people that are looking for a better way to live? Other than focus on everyone else’s faults. Is it something that would prevent families from falling apart? and would it prevent the troubled teenagers and adults that lash out for recognition by stepping inside a public facility and shooting innocent children and people that are working at doing something successful? I bet those parents last week would pay a lot of money to have the chance to talk to that young man before he acted the way he did. you know it seems funny to me that there are all these critics out there tearing other people down instead of doing something with their lives in something productive. You can have the tallest building in town either by building yours taller or by tearing all the rest of the buildings down but you won’t have a town left just an egotistical representative. So why don”t you so called educated people think about the at stake future of our country and see what you can do to make a difference in all those catergories, because lets face it unless we don’t change in what we are doing we will no longer be safe in our schools or other public places or have the freedoms to live in a country that promotes a free enterprise, we are fast going the way of every corrupted government in past history. If you are perfect then you are qualified to throw the first stone. But i would bet most of you would support one of these, Abortion, Divorce, Gay Marriage, Condomes in our Classrooms, or maybe don’t even believe that there is a God.
    [ If you want to comment in return to this then please show us your Credentials by showing all of us your last 3 yrs. tax returns, your picture of your successful families and your successful communities, and the amount of money you spent for your degree, and oh yeah your list of all your mortgages that someone convinced you that you really needed all that on credit. I double dare any body with the guts of a true american to do that please, and what really is a scam? people that are sold that if they go to college and get a degree that they can have the opportunity to make x$ and that job does’t exist when they graduate from college, or selling people on information that truly makes a difference in their lives? IF THEY APPLY IT.

    P.S. If you are going to pick on the grammer then it is obvious you missed the whole point.

    P>P>S IF your doing something positively in your community then God Bless You.

  130. Melanie Morgan permalink
    December 18, 2012 1:57 pm


    SAME ole’ indoctrinated..rhetoric, SAME ole’ Books, Cd’s, Seminars, Majors…and even SAME methods & practices…but it is “different” … Is that all you got?

  131. Melanie Morgan permalink
    December 18, 2012 2:34 pm

    BTW~ resist,

    Did you “build it, your team in” Amway, Quixtar, Monavie, Team in hiding, and Now Team LIEF? Your statements above are so typical and bore us… Ought to “study the history” or you will be doomed to repeat it…

    Did you know that is where orrin began and many people of the SAME people went through ALL the MLM hopping and ended up in LIEF?

    .Read up on it you might find figure it out, where many people “built it” in one of those “businesses” and then those you defend and “follow” took them into LIEF and claimed all kinds of remarkable “growth”,

    Again, nothing “different”: SAME ole’ thing they did when going into Monavie (you do know they are still in Monavie right? haha…

    So they
    re-registered many, many people that most of us on here “built” but those “nice guys and gals you follow took them into the LIEF business and reaping the rewards off others efforts, but then that IS the business of these charlatans, those who others brought in, invested many years of blood, sweat and tears… NOW have new “sponsors.”

    Resist says:

    “The people on this site will ask how many people in my group are making a profit or making money.”

    ” Ummm…DUH! And there is a “Difference” between “making money” and “making a profit” It would be the difference between “making a profit” or losing money!

    Are you Resist… “recruiting” people in Team Lief?: as they too can “own their own business” haha.. (best re-check the directors contract and the LIEF P&P, or do you NOT get a copy of that?

    I think what you will find by reading those “contracts” you own nothing but a very consuming JOB.

    You do tell your recruits, it is a “BUSINESS, no?!”

  132. Melanie Morgan permalink
    December 18, 2012 2:40 pm

    I apologize, let me re-phrase…It is worse than an all consuming JOB!

  133. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    December 18, 2012 3:52 pm

    Matt Miller said: “you know it seems funny to me that there are all these critics out there tearing other people down instead of doing something with their lives in something productive” , etc.

    Answer: why you presumptuous little punk—you have no idea how old some of us are, or where any of us have been in our lives, or the good we have done with said lives, or how we contribute to society.

    Your juvenile (I’ll eat my practice license if you are over 30 give or take a few years) rabble-rousing not worth getting riled up over too much.

    You come on here, filled with cognitive dissonance (look it up, get educated) because of the CT tragedy, misplacing your fears and twisted, delusional version of LIFE/Team membership teachings, as if you are suggesting that this flimsy MLM will leave a lasting 100 yr long or more mark on the totality of mankind’s historical development and progression. You are a parrot, not a critical thinker.

    But as long as you’ve goaded me here: listen up, punk……for years I literally and physically helped to pick up and get off the 20-degree below snowy weather, off of large city streets and hiding places, and to help clothe, feed and comfort: the homeless and mentally ill. And the rest of the time, I helped to keep alive gunshot wound victims, stabbing victims, and snot-nosed brats, too.

    What’s in YOUR goody-two-shoes wallet, you presumptuous little twit?

    Take your twisted version of Christianity and shove it, too……I see you, too, in the great “Christian LIFE/Team of Hypocrisy” are really just a cloaked hater…….you bring on here your incendiary crap about gays and abortion, etc., where it has no place. Grow up, punk.

  134. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    December 18, 2012 4:19 pm

    LOL!! Now I’ve read it all: the indoctrination of the failure of “free enterprise” in relationship to the CT tragedy….supposedly as a major root of what?….the lack of improper mental health care rules and regulations in this country? Yeah, we KNOW from where and who this far, far right-wing philosophy is coming straight out of, and being instilled into, in this cult of ridiculousness. Next we’ll have Thomas Jefferson’s name invoked again.

    I don’t suppose our recently and rapidly changed, more introverted “virtual world” American way of life–lives that are titillated in glorifying, emulating, quantifying, pontificating about, etc., this over-media-ized, Jerry Springer-like TV/gaming generation with little attention to mental health care, etc.,–has anything to do with cracks in the social fabric? Nooooo, we had to have “free enterprise” brought up! It’s all just too ludicrous for words.

    Where was the outrage when the FBI murdered 27 or 28 children, in ages from gestation to ages 1, 2, 3, 5, 6, 8, 12, 13, 15, 18, etc. were either shot or BURNED ALIVE at Waco in 1993, all in the effort to obliterate ONE MAN, who, by the way, had been cleared by a local sheriff?!

    How about the 23 boys bodies found in the basement of John Wayne Gacey’s home—Gacey, a man in local politics, no less.
    How about Ruby Ridge?
    How about the damn drone yesterday that killed a foreign child?!

    No….NOW the “OW twisted sister club” is pushing their political economic agenda (gotta sell more 1913 books, etc., don’tcha know, and publish more blogs pulling history out of context, etc.), all the while, secretly cloaked in hate for those who are different, and overtly trying to connect economics with the actions of one disturbed individual.

  135. TruthSeeker permalink
    December 18, 2012 4:28 pm

    Wow, that was a long post Matt, and no I didn’t read it all. Is this thee Matthew Miller? The one from Layton, Utah who is buddies with Dan Putnam. Just curious Matt, trying to figure out why you would spew out that load of trash. If that is you, why you here kickin the hornets nest? Does this look like a friendly environment?

  136. TruthSeeker permalink
    December 18, 2012 4:32 pm

    Oh, and by the way, AgeofWisdom, I did read your reply to Matt that you posted at 3:52 pm and I laughed my ass off.

    You need to write like that more often, it is great entertainment. Matt, you just got bitch-slapped by a 51 yr old woman. How did that feel?

  137. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    December 18, 2012 4:39 pm

    Truthseeker: um, make that a 62 yr old woman…..LOL!!

  138. TruthSeeker permalink
    December 18, 2012 4:52 pm

    Well I will be damned, and here I have thought 51 was your age, not the year you were born. Thanks grandma!

    And I know grandma is a compliment to you. Give Matt hell if he comes back….big if…

  139. Freedomhaha permalink
    December 18, 2012 6:11 pm

    Not sure where to even start with that. This is post from Matt has to be the post of the year.

  140. Freedomhaha permalink
    December 18, 2012 6:18 pm

    Ageofwisdom- Even though we don’t see eye-to-eye on Christianity I have a lot of respect for you when you bring it up on here. When you bring up Christianity you mention that TEAMsters are presenting a twisted version of it. It shows how honest you are in your assessment of the TEAM. The twisted Gospel of Prosperity that is taught in TEAM just makes me sick.

  141. No Team For Me permalink
    December 18, 2012 7:31 pm

    Matt Miller …….yet another troll. Notice the pattern of using OW & CB instead of the names Orrin Woodward & Chris Brady to avoid google logarithms. Notice the distraction mentality. Always asking “What do you have that’s better?” Instead of discussing the facts of all the dishonesty among Teamscam leaders.
    That would be the same thing as Hitler saying “What do you have that is better?” Hello! it doesn’t matter what is better. What matters is to stop all the innocent people who are continuing to be deceived by these jerks.

  142. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    December 18, 2012 10:23 pm

    @Freedom: in regard to my view on how Christian theism is (mis)used: (sorry so long–well-paragraphed on the site–don’t try reading in format showing up in email inbox)

    What I abhor is the bastardization of what is/should be/can be good about organized religion/theism for the “modern common man” by those who use it for political or personal extreme financial gain, or spewing Christian love publicly, but behind the scenes or in print acting ignoble, crass and the hypocrite–it is done with “false witness” and false financial pretense, with premeditated intent to deceive by the originators who know absolutely, not all could possibly “win” to the degree suggested, just based upon the mathematics and saturation point of it all. And right up front, they’ve got it devised to make sure you know that it’s your fault if you don’t get the dangling carrot.

    And to rob not only money (many are young; some like my family member, are buying the hype of quitting jobs and getting limo rides, etc.) , but eventually the spirit of those who believed in them, working feverishly into the hoopla, buying into/finding solace in the heavily promulgated idea (as cultists instill on almost all subjects) that their common God is/was supporting such a scheme of so-called “leadership skills” making you financially wealthy as a matter of course.

    In essence, it is a 3rd or 4th iteration of a worldly (used in Biblical sense as Jesus was reportedly using it in the Temple on the Mount) financial endeavor to get rich off of those below, with dream-selling of exaggerated big limo rides away from solid jobs; the flaunted building of mansions for the privileged few (while others, as we now know, swallowed the embarrassment of their bankruptcies in order to maintain “the image”); the flaunting of dazzling possessions via lots of sports toys….

    ….and yet, like school yard bullies, they make fun of other hard-working, responsible citizens who are satisfied with the “blessings” they have in life for themselves, their families, and in what they do for others and humanity–even those who have been in leadership positions themselves.

    Yet overtly and covertly, the team’s indoctrinated ‘hive logic’ persists in painting non-members as fearful of success, or among other contrived labels: losers with no vision, no drive, content with mediocrity, etc., just because one won’t get into or has left such a questionable endeavor…..

    AND HERE’S THE PUNCHLINE: as if any financial portion or underhanded dealings by persons associated with this business would be on ANY God/god’s supportive agenda, e.g., , to bestow perfect supporting love in proving that non-members’ and ex-members’ honest work for a living and community is not a worthy or moral goal or state of being–is not something to be proud of and is somehow distasteful and second-rate. Talk about casting Biblical stones first! Excuse my irreverence, but ‘Jesus H. Christ in a Holy Hand-basket!’ (as my Catholic mother used to utter in extreme frustration at times)

    My opinions stem from: actual blog readings; legal documents; mathematics; statistics; historical documentation; governmental warnings, and documented events and other documented experiences by persons on other websites and private insider information.

    My first influence was: rapid cult-like changes in an adult child’s personality/behavior and shortly thereafter, once I had the name of the perpetrator of such a business, I found the irrefutable documentation from the Amthrax site—not bottom line opinion from various anonymous posters on this site. Oh, and let’s not forget common sense after being in the workforce, starting at age 15 in 1966. LOL!! Been there and done that with Avon, while neighbor mother did Amway, too.

  143. freedomhaha permalink
    December 19, 2012 5:50 am

    Age- Very, very well said.

  144. switch permalink
    December 19, 2012 6:28 am

    Merry Christmas, Matthew! How’s the “other side of the story” look?

    No Team for Me-
    “Notice the distraction mentality…”

    Absolutely!…and on top of that, bringing a lunatic into this who open fired on a bunch of innocent kids, to use for his advantage/pitty party to try and join the regime….what a clown.

    And poor little matthew here, probably tells his followers/prospects/recruits/LIEfers to not watch the news?

    The hypocrisy floors me.

  145. Melanie Morgan permalink
    December 19, 2012 7:03 am


    Could you pass the popcorn, please! LOL…This is getting quite entertaining. 🙂

    Thanks to all, and Wisodm, excellent!

    Thank You, Matt Miller for the constant reminder of my “WHY!”…the “why” I am grateful the wake-up call came and I am not wasting my life in LIEf.

    Btw~ I complimented 3 people yesterday and opened the door for a stranger, would this count? I didn’t need a cd, book, or seminar to tell me how, when, what, or why from ‘guru’ telling me on ‘how to’ make an positive impact in my community or how to treat others with kindness! Not to shed light on me, nor do I believe it is rare.

    You really need to do some research (step away from the cult) and your eyes will open, re-gain your critical thinking for yourself, you will then find the truth that will set you free!

    I hope for your sake you get the wake-up call,… the sooner the better.

  146. freedomhaha permalink
    December 19, 2012 7:33 am

    Please Sir, Step…Away.. from the cult.

  147. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    December 19, 2012 9:44 am

    More evidence of the actual MINDSET of perpetrators of the biz: HIS own words of CB at a big launch type meeting, taken from a public video, and quoted as best I could because there was no pause button on it for me to stop—every effort made to not change the meanings:

    “Scooby Snack” Utube Video: CB followed OW in presentation. Speaking in a down-home “I’m your buddy” folksy way, trying to get laughs and warm up the audience. So far so good.

    In getting to what he claimed was the only business to ever think up such a scheme of mixing: leadership with networking with watchdog life coaches and purported community building, this is some of what CB actually said. YOU be the judge, and at these points, the impression to someone who would be affronted at the words also came across as “insider crassness” :

    1) “People born into money, the very rich…they’re never here (at meetings),,,ha ha. Know why? They’re in therapy.”

    2) “Golddiggers aren’t here, either….but they can even get in the presidency, even the father of our country did.” I couldn’t quite believe this one myself–played it over a few times just to make sure I got the basic gist of it. Honestly don’t want to misquote.

    3) “(female who marries poor mail is who he aimed the barb at directly) people who marry….find out what a financial hole they are in…and then they find out they (have to settle) really do have to love each other because they don’t have anything else…and they find out fighting is free.”

    Well, friends, I might be “without theism”, but I’m not heartless enough, crass enough, moronic enough or without social grace enough to get up and say such things to a room full of people at a place where I’m trying to hawk my earth-shatteringly new form leadership-for-dollars-and-your-mental-health-for-free.

    Sweet Jehosephat! Do these persons who present themselves as intentional hillbilly dope, downhome guys actually believe ANY God would support this type of attitude?

    Is THIS how one presents oneself in an effort to sell an interrelated supposed “never before seen” combined program of (per chart CB was referring to):

    1) supposed leadership skills in personal development,
    2) to build communities of duped cult followers,
    3) to appropriately network as a business and
    4) to attract quality persons to become henchmen “life coaches”?!!

    Unseemly repetition is the Sodom of this. Spreading bias is the Gomorrah of this. I, for one, can’t wait until the whole thing turns into the proverbial pillar of salt (even though scholars now suspect it was probably ash from the result of volcanic eruption).

  148. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    December 19, 2012 9:45 am

    oops: silly typo: mail = male, of course in item number 3 in my prior post….

  149. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    December 19, 2012 10:11 am

    Addendum: this video I just wrote on is advertised as: “The Chance of a LIFE time–Youtube”, and, of course, no commentary as is usually allowed under videos is allowed. This lack of allowing opinion, too, should tell prospective members to investigate further.

  150. switch permalink
    December 19, 2012 10:20 am

    popcorn passed to Mrs. Morgan. 😉

  151. freedomhaha permalink
    December 19, 2012 10:31 am

    I think I another question that I want LIEfers to answer for me: “Why can’t I comment on a LIFE blog like you can comment on here?”

    PS: Still waiting for one person to answer what percentage of their TEAM is making profit. If this is such a great business I am sure that it will just take a second to clear that up.

  152. Mike Collins permalink
    December 19, 2012 11:32 am

    I gotta tell you 51, I’ve reall enjoyed your last couple of post. You make some very good points and ask some even better questions.

    The condescension in some of these things these jackasses say is palatable. The sad thing about this is that the “jobs” these idiots (ow, cb, and their minions) poo poo are the very things that allow the masses to participate in this scam and thus make them rich.
    The simple truth is that 99% of their audience that sit in meeting after meeting listening to these idiots berate jobs and the people that have them will still have a job 5-10-15 years from now, should they last that long…..

  153. switch permalink
    December 19, 2012 11:49 am

    miller says-
    “Then would you mind telling us what you guys are doing that truthfully is supporting an income an providing the dreams you and your family has always dreamed of…”

    First off….my first full time job is being a proud parent of my children who tell me that they’re very thankful for what they have and who they have for parents. That would be the main difference between us…and YOU.

    The last thing I’m gonna do, matthew, is sell people on some fake dream and continue building the FOUNDATION of lies by commanding them to listen to more bull$hit cd’s for my OWN personal/financial gain.

    miller says-
    “So why don”t you so called educated people think about the at stake future of our country and see what you can do to make a difference in all those catergories, because lets face it unless we don’t change in what we are doing we will no longer be safe in our schools or other public places or have the freedoms to live in a country that promotes a free enterprise…”

    “P.S. If you are going to pick on the grammer then it is obvious you missed the whole point.”

    So that automatically gives YOU the right to mock the well educated outside of LIFE and flaunt the “education” offered through LIFE as being something so much better? And at the same time you lash out for better security in our schools,…. does LIFE have something to offer for this? They must, right?…then fill us in. Here’s a question, miller,…. if someone came up to you and said, “you know, miller…I’m kind of undecided on whether or not I should join your Life program or I have this other offer on the table of helping protect my local schools by being a law enforcement official but they require proper training to do so….” What exactly would you say, matthew?… Never mind, I already know.

    miller also says-
    “[ If you want to comment in return to this then please show us your Credentials by showing all of us your last 3 yrs. tax returns…”

    Seriously??? So let me get this straight… you’re the one presenting the “opportunity” to us and yet you command everyone to crack open their tax returns and financial history???

    Wow,….they were right gang….times have definitely changed on team.

  154. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    December 19, 2012 1:14 pm

    @Mike C: thank you, and I agree with your other commentary, too—no clue as to how people don’t realize it’s the hated J.O.B. that pays for the subscriptions, gas and some meetings, etc…..I think, though, it happens more, too, as they get deeper into it…and likely say: if I just put this much more money into it, the promised returns will start or grow, etc.

    @ Switch: you got it! That’s what I’ve been trying to tell you guys, too—the indoctrination is so fast in LIFE/Team–at least that’s how it happened for us here with the grown child, so much so, that I couldn’t believe it….and you, too, picked out the “read between the lines” of Matt’s post. One day, out of the blue, everything changed….and when ol’ crotchety Mommy wouldn’t let him sign me up under false pretenses….well, I got this attitude in spades and a hailstorm. Hey, he’d already been warned to not even give me OW’s name, prior to his first solicitation practice phone call to me (could tell a “coach” was in attendance)…what does THAT tell you?

  155. December 19, 2012 1:24 pm

    FYI – I suspect this page has been getting more traffic because it contains the words “LIFE Business” in the subject line and body. Remember, that’s one of the keywords that Bill Lewis wanted TEAM/LIFE members to promote in their comments and posts.

  156. Melanie Morgan permalink
    December 19, 2012 10:42 pm


    Thanks for the update. More traffic? lol….That ought to raise a few people’s blood pressure, They will have to pour on the steam and have more “incentives” for bloggers!

    Poor things will have to waste more of their valued time away from their families, during the special holiday season for yet another “conference call” …these conference calls are getting more like the seminars and their ranks…they raise the bar, then lower it (for false growth and “belief”) then you bust your behind to get to it to find out you didn’t need to perform because they let (desperate) others in without “performing”…then the supposed.. pearl of….just keep commenting on the blogs..LOL!… What a waste…


    Keep it coming, you are nailing it with some great points AND you are hilarious!

  157. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    December 19, 2012 10:59 pm

    Melanie: LOL!! You wil likely be so sorry you said “keep it coming” (big grin). Actually, what I’m about to post may not seem like such a “big deal” to people…but again, it shows the skewing of intent and context of a very specifically-labeled item, and how it’s been transformed to make things look as if people might be learning something they’d never heard of before—in this case, appropriate interpersonal communication skills to effect conflict resolution.

    So for everyone: This one’s just for fun, because it made me laugh. Dreams vs Drama in Network Marketing:

    There’s a Youtube video where OW is squeeking his glider lawn furniture through most of it as he’s talking to a man named Art. The entire video doesn’t say much but may be appropriate for folks truly lacking any assertiveness skill, I suppose, or if they can’t get a handle on emotions and ruminate a lot—but the focus is an old one with help you can get for free anywhere–it only changes to more current slang terms, i.e., everything nowadays is “drama” labeled if it doesn’t follow the team dream (or everyone else’s idea of how the world should be, i.e., many seem to be in an awakening state of cognitive dissonance lately)..

    When Art asked OW how to lessen the drama and focus on your dreams, OW says: I’d recommend The Socratic Method. This is a specific method. In this, he gave the example of two team members, one of whom got ticked at the other, but was afraid to say anything. If only the affronted person would just use The Socratic Method, OW advised.

    By this time, as an ex-Socratic Method debate student, I was just resting back, chuckling. In my day, we used to call OW’s hypothetical scenario of: one person being offended by another person: just be appropriately assertive, and use conflict management/resolution by politely pointing out the behavior that offended you and ask if that’s what was intended, which any beginner’s book would tell you. To him, this method is equivalent to: asking questions. Am not sure how actually inviting debate lessens drama— 🙂

    From something simple, like Wikipedia, here’s The Socratic Method:
    “The Socratic method… is a form of inquiry and debate between individuals with opposing viewpoints based on asking and answering questions to stimulate critical thinking and to illuminate ideas. It is a dialectical method, often involving an oppositional discussion in which the defense of one point of view is pitted against the defense of another; one participant may lead another to contradict himself in some way, thus strengthening the inquirer’s own point.

    The Socratic method is a negative method of hypothesis elimination, in that better hypotheses are found by steadily identifying and eliminating those that lead to contradictions. The Socratic method searches for general, commonly held truths that shape opinion, and scrutinizes them to determine their consistency with other beliefs”

    In this video, OW also claimed one of the first things he did was turn off TV, news and all (in a way I don’t blame him about Jerry Springer-like political-zealot stations) to get rid of the drama in his life and focus on his dreams (am assuming there’s multiple $$$$$ in those dreams)..

    This, then, is where they are likely getting the overall philosophy from that their minions should not read on the internet, etc. And it’s the exact parroting I got from the family member after finding Amthrax and getting educated and the family member got torqued—in fact, at first the family member did NOT want me to even know OW’s name…….hmmmm, that should tell prospective members something, eh?.

    One would think there’s not much to be gained by going over old sales pitches or reading blurbs, but there really is…..sometimes, the Wizard of Oz’s tattered velvet curtain falls to the floor and Oz is standing there in knickers, caught in the act of pulling more ropes and cords to gain the desired illusion.

    It also shows, once again, how something very historically specific like the Socratic Method can be shortened to the point of questioning obliteration and transfixed into what is supposed to look like some profound new way of selling communication techniques to propel you to the fruition of dreams. In lay terms: so OW can look like some kind of a high-faluttin’ scholar with something new worth listening to…….and never mind that that type of interpersonal skill communication has been taught for decades, while he was still a young person.

    I’ve seen other truncations/alterations/contextual abnormalities in their use/citations of ancient history, western civilization history and American history, especially the founding fathers and again at the Progressive movement, public education, etc., (although I’ve also read some valid points, but it was just hard to get to when also reading about other complaints and heaping the blame onto welfare recipients, etc.).

  158. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    December 19, 2012 11:17 pm

    Why posting information–even legal facts/court cases– seldom works at the height of one’s involvement/indoctrination in something that’s almost cult-like: “Sometimes people hold a core belief that is very strong. When they are presented with evidence that works against that belief, the new evidence cannot be accepted. It would create a feeling that is extremely uncomfortable, called cognitive dissonance. And because it is so important to protect the core belief, they will rationalize, ignore and even deny anything that doesn’t fit in with the core belief.” (Center for Global Research)

  159. Melanie Morgan permalink
    December 19, 2012 11:21 pm

    Finally~ Awesome post! Sorry, I missed it.

    You said: “You see Tina this is not hate, but rather, truth, of what the team actually is.” Amen!

    That is what is so tragic; they have confused the truth with hate!

    Tina, Resist, & Matt Miller are confused, and mostly because they have fallen into the trap and web of deceit, like way too many of us did. They are convinced and have come to “believe” in the fairy-tale, and are following the elusive path they believe to get them to the Land of OZ.

    These pretentious mis-leaders know that Tina, Resist, and Matt Miller will never reach the Land of OZ; that their odds of ever getting to PC… are closer to never and orrin justifies this by telling people he is “selling (false) hope” and convinces them to pay for it!


    Just as orrin knew that there was a .oo1% chance ( I have read his words) in Amway that anyone would EVER become a Founders Emerald! That is only half way to Diamond! Did orrin share this mathematical truth with the masses while selling his false hope? That would be a Resounding NO! Shamefully, we never knew the odds either!!

    He continued to mis-lead and deceive others, just as I believe he is in TEAM/LIEF, withholding information, misrepresentations, and delivering false hope.

    Their clever web of deceit enslaves people! The “freedom”… bill of goods, they sell is a LIE.

    Sadly, from my vantage point, I can understand and regretfully, fell for the most part, their convoluted, mixed and double messages, the pretensions, slight of the hand techniques, half-truths or flat out lies; it does and will confuse these poor souls that have lost the ability to decipher the truth.

  160. Melanie Morgan permalink
    December 19, 2012 11:24 pm

    The power of the indoctrination has them so ‘wrapped up’ in believing in these self-proclaimed “guru-leaders”; that they are admirable, noble, good, just, pure, true, self-controlled, praiseworthy, honest changing the world, financial freedom…and on and on. They have fallen for the trap, just as we did, and because they have been mislead they now have created their ‘new world’ of beliefs.

    The mis-leaders “say”… they are changing the world, everyone can achieve all their dreams, will be financially free, passive incomes, will never have to work again, they can fire their “bosses”.. “saving” marriages, (where’s the data to verify?) but for follower parroting this, there are hundreds if not thousands that have already or are losing money, therefore, taxing every area of one’s lives, including their marriages!

    These poor souls cannot see the mathematics or the truth in the experiences of others, they have been sold a pack of lies and they have been convinced to believe in these charlatans.

    However, they have now “imagined” the fantasy of financial freedom and achieving all their goals and dreams, that they have been fed, therefore; they “believe” it, and have created their own little isolated pretend world; based on a lie!

    It will be a sad day when they are forced to face the facts (because they will as we did) eventually the truth will not be denied, it will show up, whether because they cannot sustain financially, burnt out on the build and replace, figure out the lies, are given an ultimatum in their marriages, or just plain have the rose colored glasses finally shattered for many a reason…But most sad and damaging, they will have to work through a lot of garbage, because in the end, they will to some degree believe; it was their fault.

  161. Melanie Morgan permalink
    December 20, 2012 12:05 am


    More excellent points and great posts. I don’t think you can underestimate and your imput is of great value, not only to those who might me ‘secretly’ researching because their gut is telling them something is really wrong. But not only for those folks, your posts along with all who contribute help me in many ways! I Thank You and others for them!

  162. Melanie Morgan permalink
    December 20, 2012 12:06 am secretly.. not me

  163. freedomhaha permalink
    December 20, 2012 7:01 am

    Wisdom- While the presentation of facts (a la bankruptcy papers) might not work for others at the height of the indoctrination it does work for some. As soon as I saw the papers I felt TEAM within a half hour. They are still worth posting without a doubt.

  164. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    December 20, 2012 7:54 am

    Melanie: regarding your 12/19/12, 11:21 pm post: you have something in it, points of view that truly point out the dichotomy of what’s going on in this “team” indoctrination and education, and I think Raquel and I talked about this before, too.

    Just my humble opinion, i.e., not preaching: We exist as members on a contiuum of established, usually socially-acceptable beliefs within our culture, and we also get disillusioned with the stressors of daily life or lack of opportunity, etc., so we seek out stress- and anxiety-reduction behaviors.

    Then the “pied piper” comes along with an upbeat idea, and possesses: a similar background and geographic location, and especially in something as all-pervasively approved of like Christian religion; and possesses the same race/cultural background; and prior business success; and common-man charming personality, etc…….

    I think it’d very easy to get sucked in. I’d hazard a guess that if I were 20-35 or so years of age, falling into this may even have happened to me if I had strong similarities with the enticers, and was looking for something, even just some additional income (tongue-in-cheek: don’t forget, I scored highly, right where they wanted me to on the Mental Fitness pre-test–to create a toady out of–LOL!)

    Then once one commits to it, and gives his/her all, I think one’s “psyche” has to hang on as long as possible, for lots of reasons that make us modern-day workaholics, etc., but ALSO because it was, especially in this case: also cloaked in the very vocal comraderie of Christianity and promised that if only you did this or that, or achieved this or that, then honest, upstandingly-gained rewards would be there…..and when the initial little red flags start to appear, what’s wrong is often not dealt with because of the cognitive dissonance I spoke of in an earlier post.

    The irony here is: the “lazier” or “less committed” or the more skeptical-personality people (for lack of better adjectives) that got into this and fell out sooner are likely far better off mentally than those who went all out, gung-ho and actually began to at least temporarily build their business empires. Likewise, it’s obviously easier for the first aforementioned to move on, and not keep up the fight.

    For westernized man, giving oneself all out to the work ethic has been admired and emulated since the first settlers brought it over and later came to be known as the “WASP work ethic”. I don’t think any common man/woman got into this biz out of being “stupid”—I honestly don’t believe any of you were “stupid”—not even the drones who get sent to this site from back office command centers.

    This team’s leader weaponry is mainly to discredit truths, obfuscate and confabulate their actual financial goals and, I guess, to sue those who refuse to be quiet.

    To prevent collapse, of absolute necessity, they MUST discredit anyone not belonging to their fold of domesticated sheep-teamers, done in an effort to salvage the guise of “educated leadership community builders livin’ the financial good life” while the reality is: the sewer rat princes of MLMs are lugging their huge bags of ill-gotten coinage as they laugh at the dupedom of their victims all the way to the bank. Their own members are evidently happy with the scraps of coinage thrown at them, not realizing the millions being taken off of their backs.

    I’m sure the average 25 yr old is oh-so-happy with a few extra hundred bucks a month, oblivious to those at the top ponzi-skimmmin millions for their personal princely accounts. It doesn’t dawn on the 25 yr old that this is lopsided. (Heck, even in regular business, we’ve got CEO’s that don’t deserve their multi-millions in annual income and severence, but yet they’ll whine about higher corporate taxation in the same breath.) Even Raquel’s published income one year of about $86, 000 gross is peanuts compared to the pillaging actually being committed.

    So the bottom line is here we’ve got the classic: biblically-money-pillaging, goody-two-shoe-presenting, forked-tongue slick serpentine-speaking, skewed-Christianity-principle-spewing Team originators. It all exists in such a tangled ball…..I mean, it’s all just so ludicrously convoluted and dishonestly vile (talking about the originators), and the unaware NEED people like you ex-teamers to help stop it.

    (Oops, sorry too long again….can you tell I used to be an editorialist as a teenager? 🙂 )

  165. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    December 20, 2012 8:34 am

    Freedom: oh, oh, I think you may have taken what I said not quite the way I meant it (or I may have written it confusingly–sorry)…and I certainly DO advocate ALWAYS listing the written proof. I meant my comment, in general, of what the psycho-emotionally labeled term “cognitive dissonance” can do to some people for a period of time, such as those teamers who just came on recently, especially posters like Matt Miller. Cognitive dissonance can be compared to the stages of grief humans go through, how we think as a species—lucky for you, you saw and it only took a half an hour to make up your mind.

  166. freedomhaha permalink
    December 20, 2012 9:02 am

    Wisdom- I agree totally. Just know that what we are doing on here is work it because for every person that read this and stay in people exist that read this blog, like me, and do quit.

  167. switch permalink
    December 20, 2012 9:25 am

    ” Hey, he’d already been warned to not even give me OW’s name, prior to his first solicitation practice phone call to me (could tell a “coach” was in attendance)…what does THAT tell you?”

    Oh don’t worry, it tells me everything I need to know. Fortunately, I saw it a LONG time ago.

  168. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    December 20, 2012 9:29 am

    Freedom: ?? Now I’m confused—you said you were in total agreement, but that there’s more I “need to know” —I do get it and I never tried to say the opposite, and I never tried to say that all persons wouldn’t get out of the biz when shown proof, and I never tried to say posting irrefutable data was worthless in and of itself or in all cases, and I never intimated that it wasn’t “work” on the part of ex-teamers (wherever that came from or why I needed to be “called out” about this is beyond me), and I certainly never intimated that this site does not have value, otherwise why would I be here. Again, the subject of ‘cognitive dissonance’ is a generally accepted concept used in explaining and showing how the human mind works in fighting off having to give up a belief system at times. Simple as that. Don’t read too much into it as an individual or as if it was aimed at yourself. For every one of you who gets out quick, there is one who will stay in the biz for years because of experiencing strong cognitive dissonance when presented with irrefutable fact—those are the types I was talking about, but I certainly had NO intent to discredit anything going on here on Amthrax.

  169. switch permalink
    December 20, 2012 9:45 am

    and did you see that Resist likes to frequent Amthrax’s yard every six months or so….?

    Resist says on…
    May 8, 2012 12:19 pm
    “After you walk away, the people in your groups will want to have success…unlike you. They will want guidance from someone and will find someone to plug into. Thus, another case of “that group was stolen” or “this leader was given a group” may come up because you are going to leave people behind.
    I was left by many of my upline. I found someone to get coaching from. On anthrax I would first be considered a “stolen” person or group. However, if the anthrax wanted to demonstrate unworthiness by a Team leader, then I would be classified as “a gift” to a Team leader. I wasn’t stolen, a gift, or otherwise. What the anthraxers and you need to consider is that YOU will leave good people with goals and dreams behind that aren’t part of a “stolen” group or a “given” group. They are individuals that trusted you, you are breaking that trust, and they will find someone else. I’ve seen a group struggle to understand why their leader left them. I know the hunger that group had to have someone lead that group. They got their new leader and all is well.
    I wasn’t a gift, stolen, or otherwise. And when Soon2Bout bails on his/her people, those people shouldn’t be considered as such either.
    Soon2Bout don’t let the anthraxers portray your lack of enthusiasm for Life as anything than what it really is. Go ahead and walk if you want, people quit lots of things; marriages, jobs, friendships, churches, etc..but don’t be weany, slink away, gossip & lie about it later. If you’re going to quit be respectable.
    To the rest of you professional anthraxers, continue to revel in stories of failure and gossip, you seem to really get off on it.”

    And what was that little side note that team was passing forward just a short while ago about judging others??? Hmmmm….yeah.

    Resist, if I were a teacher, I’d give ya an A+ for a classic, Class-A, A$$hole.

    [Editor’s note: please keep this kind of name-calling to a minimum]

  170. finally permalink
    December 20, 2012 12:01 pm

    Matt, have you seen these guys personal lives away from Team??? What are they doing to improve lives?? for the 7 or 8 that make it there are hundreds of thousands that don’t. In fact of the ones making it or at least claim that they are…………what exactly are they doing to make a difference? I have seen my former up lines cus at their kids like a truck driver. I know some Team leaders families have been torn up and apart by the team. In fact for all of the things you say the team prevents in families at least one of all the pc members and round table members are experiencing the very same things they claim the all mighty system prevents. Children out of wed lock, bankruptcy, children going down the wrong road I mean for all they claim the system can do for you why doesn’t it work for them.

    I am the least perfect person I know………..Team leaders stand on stage and claim team is the answer to what is wrong with this country yet none of them are free from the very things they say are wrong with society. I wish I could go into detail about all the things I know but I won’t, it wouldn’t be right or fair. But I will say that the team leadership is not without all of the family, marriage and money trouble they say their system prevents…….and yes even the PC………they do keep it quiet or at least under wraps. I bet they never announced that their round table members were filing bankruptcy……..and remember these were couples promoted as being financially indpepndent and being mentored by “millionaires”

  171. switch permalink
    December 20, 2012 12:28 pm

    “….and yes even the PC………they do keep it quiet or at least under wraps. I bet they never announced that their round table members were filing bankruptcy……..and remember these were couples promoted as being financially indpepndent and being mentored by “millionaires” ”

    So one must ask, what can one even believe anymore with them? I know my answer is….absolutely NOTHING.

  172. switch permalink
    December 20, 2012 12:39 pm

    Thanks Amthrax. Sorry for the double post.

  173. Melanie Morgan permalink
    December 21, 2012 9:58 am


    You got it..Great points, on society with “work ethic” too…they use every angle they can to keep others in the “workaholics” mode. They know that is necessary to build the unsustainable, build-n-replace…farce of their “business opportunity.

    It is not a revelation to the world that we all need good “work ethic”..but “building that business”, from my experience, you become a “slave” to time, not “freedom of time.”

    The “pied piper” has everyone ‘believing’ they ARE the Answer to ALL of your life’s troubles. But what I found was this farce magnifies them, but only when you step away can you see this clearly.

    They keep you so busy with and them controlling all your time; with all their meetings, seminars, webinars, MFC meetings, majors, a person doesn’t have a moment to reflect and realize, you really are a slave. Their process of creating cognitive dissonance, is very powerful and created “a little at a time” or “goes fast to slow down”.It is all so cleverly orchestrated, it is disturbing.

    Reminds me what I read about Scientology and their personality test they use to “recruit” with. The Scientologists, use this “recruiting tactic” to tell others what is wrong with them.

    Just an FYI, based on something I remember you bringing up before and you may already know this, but wanted to share with you. Chris Brady, Orrin Woodward or both own “Obstacles press” which I believe is where all their ‘own’ books originally are published from. Not that there would be anything wrong with owning your own publishing, it is the reason behind and how they game everything, it is what they do, that I believe is wrong.

  174. Melanie Morgan permalink
    December 21, 2012 10:01 am


    Your last paragraph had me ROFL…thanks 🙂

  175. Melanie Morgan permalink
    December 21, 2012 10:11 am


    The conclusion…I believe is simply the ‘greed’ takes over, their ego’s, arrongance, and false beliefs of they someone are “superior” controls them…not to mention a person rarely has a “thought of their own”…the cognitive dissonance is their strong hold…the undue influence the wow, I am talking to orrin & laurie image pumped up “look who is giving me time” (Big deal, lol)

    It is disturbing the way the switch gets flipped, lift others up to a level of unhealthy false and idolizing dangerous status.

    Boy when the moment comes…and it will…how sad that day will be for those who choosen to ignore their conscience and re-write their own experiences.

  176. Melanie Morgan permalink
    December 21, 2012 10:13 am

    oops, “some how” are superior.. not someone

  177. December 21, 2012 10:06 pm

    @MELANIE, December 21, 2012 9:58 am Said,

    “…They know that is necessary to build the unsustainable, build-n-replace…farce of their “business opportunity…but “building that business”, from my experience, you become a “slave” to time, not “freedom of time.””

    MLMs are a farce for their adherents a good 97% + at least. Thus, for them “building” the farce, from my experience, is like trying to put a g-string on an alligator.

  178. Melanie Morgan permalink
    December 21, 2012 10:37 pm


    ROFL…We can say…we too..”Have Fun and are Making a Difference”..we can’t say we are “Making Money” from this site…because we do this for Free!

    I always look forward to your posts…you keep me laughing…thanks!

  179. December 22, 2012 2:11 am

    Seeing how Odubious’ bush-league dupes’ intellect is knee high to a grasshopper a laugh or two is unavoidable. B’cos what conceivable discourse can Chris and Matt speak of? They can’t help’emselves to do a tail-between-the-legs drive by.

  180. December 22, 2012 2:20 am

    @ Matt Miller, December 18, 2012 11:55 am Said…

    Never mind. If I didn’t think your first two sentences were amateurish I just might have caption-pasted them here, but why waste such a beautiful space.

    Now regarding your asinine wisdom / comments above (specifically the first two sentences) I will give you this : if the US economy, all of $15 trillion or so is an elephant TEAM is a microscopic chigger on it’s butt. TEAMscam is as useless to this economy as a screen door on a submarine.

    NEWSFLASH: We are part of the $15T elephant, sure it’s got a limp but alive it is and carrying the TEAM chigger on that butt. Don’t ask silly questions. Odubious, another TEAMmie waste try, no ballsy to show up your self? Then send a dog that can hunt.

  181. Melanie Morgan permalink
    December 22, 2012 7:53 am

    That is hysterical and I can’t stop laughing! 🙂

  182. SANDMAN permalink
    December 27, 2012 12:33 pm

    I’m looking for someone who started in this business with LIFE and not someone who was already in Team. I haven’t heard any super success stories from any of these people. Does anybody know of one?

  183. Melanie Morgan permalink
    December 27, 2012 12:49 pm

    Nope they are still riding on their Amway “success.”

  184. Melanie Morgan permalink
    December 27, 2012 1:03 pm

    Or better explained by “ExAmbot” in the above post Dec. 22, 2012 2:20 am…Bahahahaha!!!!

    The Response to Matt..I love it! 🙂 Matt must be speechless or perhaps he read the Lief P&P?

  185. Bekah permalink
    January 2, 2013 11:51 am

    Has anyone else been approached about a branch of LIFE called “All Grace Outreach”? After I turned down a friend trying to recruit me for LIFE, he emailed me information on them and that if I sign up with them, then I can somehow get support for the missions trips I go on. Seemed really fishy, and I asked him how it worked. Rather than being able to explain it (I’ve noticed he can’t give me a straight answer about LIFE or All Grace at all), he emailed me a link with videos of Chris Brady “explaining” how it worked. 20 minutes into the video I still had no idea where money would come from. Instead I’d heard about 20 minutes worth of how great the system is, how great Orrin Woodward is, and how being rich is great. Eh, sure, being rich is awesome – I’m not struggling for money even as much as the dude who’s trying to recruit me though, so I’m definitely not buying into this. But it did really concern me that something so obviously shady is being passed off as an “outreach”. I’ve been raising money for real outreach for years and it never involved recruiting people or being recruited for a company no one seems to be able to actually explain.

  186. January 2, 2013 5:00 pm

    Bekah – All Grace Outreach is a charity whose board members are the same people who run LIFE (Orrin Woodward, Chris Brady, etc.). AGO receives donations from TEAM/LIFE members and gets money from the sale of AGO books and CDs that are sold from the LIFE business.

    AGO in turn donates this money to various charities. You can read more here:

    It’s doubtful that AGO would donate money to your mission trips.

    The videos that your friend sent you were probably promotional videos for the LIFE business, not for AGO.

  187. No Team For Me permalink
    January 2, 2013 10:00 pm

    Bekah – keep us up to date. I wonder if this is going to be the next evolution of Team? I had heard somewhere that Chris Brady was pursuing a degree in theology to become a pastor. Don’t know if it’s true.

    If so, is there a chance Team is getting ready to have the next phase of the evolution – a multi-level masked in a Christian outreach? If they are trying to sell Life CD;s, I could picture them trying to scam Christian people in church’s under the guise of an ‘outreach’. “Register in Christian Life Systems and earn money while you spread the Gospel”. If they are trying to be the John Maxwell of multi-level now, what’s to stop them from being the Joel Osteem of multi-level next?

  188. Bekah permalink
    January 3, 2013 8:05 am

    @Raquel Unfortunately I didn’t keep the email with the video link.

    @Amthrax Thank you for clarifying that. I didn’t figure there was any way they’d support me, and that was what brought up red flags for me. The videos were definitely promoting LIFE more than AGO.

    @No Team… Selling the LIFE company in a religious package seems to be exactly what they’re doing. My friend said “wouldn’t the people in your church like to have a way to support you and get helpful teachings sent to them each month?” and I thought “no, because Joyce Meyer and our Pastor send them stuff – for free- already… why would they want materials from some random guy they’ve never heard of? and they already support me without having to use a shady sounding company to do it.”

  189. January 3, 2013 8:07 am


    You said,
    “I’ve noticed he can’t give me a straight answer about LIFE or All Grace at all”

    Ha! This never changes in MLM world. Getting a straight answer out of an MLMer is like trying to plait live eels in a bucket. He is just following his… atchoo! leaders’ advice-tactics such as to never answer a question directly, instead answer with another question, provide a tool, video, cd, etc.

    You said,
    “…he emailed me a link with videos of Chris Brady “explaining” how it worked. 20 minutes into the video I still had no idea where money would come from. Instead I’d heard about 20 minutes worth of how great the system is, how great Orrin Woodward…”

    MLMs are cults, they are run as such and their members are cultists. You have already indicated to this person that you are not interested in being a TEAMmie. Nevertheless, he sent you blivit that obviously refers to TEAM and Orrin Woodward (couldn’t pass) while the same was purpoted to be in reference to All Grace Outreach. This is a tell tale sign of a cultist desparately thinking that somehow their ahem, leaders will get through to you. You are only important to this person as long as he thinks he stands a chance to sign you up in TEAM. Anything else including you receiving some of that charity dough or even what it is meant for is not important nor does it matter to this desperate cultist. The moment he is convinced he cannot and will not be able to sign you up he will lose any pretense of interest he has in you. MLM MO/reality.

    You can test this if you want to and revert (hopefully you have some fun with it if you decide to ;-). Otherwise, I would say run away so fast from these cultists like your feet were on fire!

    You said,
    “I’ve been raising money for real outreach for years.”

    I highly doubt you will make any headway with these cultists on this. I really don’t mind to be proven wrong tho’.

    You said,
    “…so I’m definitely not buying into this. But it did really concern me that something so obviously shady is being passed off as an “outreach”.”

    Anything to signup one more member is ok with them. I commend you for your BS meter being really good!

  190. AlmostIn permalink
    January 3, 2013 8:09 am

    @ Sandman

    I started out in LIFE but after a very short period of time I started to get this feeling that upline was encouraging and wanting you to purchase “tools” (CD’s, books, attend all meetings that you have to pay to attend). I figured out that the money gained from this would be going to the pins/PC/Orrin.

    I started to think that I would be spinning my wheels for quite a long time trying to earn income from the “tools”. Of course they didn’t tell me this, but that is when I started to get a feeling that they were not on the up. I started to ask questions and the only answers I got were just listen to a cd/read a book/attend a meeting/speak with upline/get other people involved and I would start making money. Without these answers,I became suspcious.

    I then thought I don’t want to convince family, friends and even strangers to buy into a potential income source without all the information needed to do to get this “extra” income.
    The money I would need for this would be coming from my J-ust-O-ver-B-roke income. Ok, so I was going to invest a little, but I started to get the feeling that a little was going to be more than I could do without hurting me a big way. I just kept getting this feeling that something wasn’t quite right.

    By listening to cd’s, reading the books, attending the meetings, speaking with upline, I started to see that this was going to consume alot of my spare time. It became alarming to me when the person that I was seeing at the time started to “plug in” to the cd every time they got in the car or walked into their home–a LIFE cd had to be listened to or a book needed to be picked up and read. None of the other enjoyable things they did before was being enjoyed any longer. LIFE was taking over this person’s life. Along with this, I found the cd’s boring and nothing but useless information about history and not much information given and told how I can apply it. The meetings were becoming nauseating. Listening to how great and outstanding each person was. How they had mansions, cars, boats, vacations and spare time. It occurred to me that they were bragging about all these things as being the things that would make you happy–it just didn’t seem right to me.

    Then, AMTHRAX was brought up bya fellow “recruit” when they tryed recruiting a family member. I decided to take a look. Sure enough, it confirmed my suspcions. They were decribing their experiences and it coincided with how I was feeling–the “cult” like following.
    LIFE had to go and GO it did! I’m so glad I dodged that bullet. I also saw how any of the other mlm’s in which Orrin was involved in used the TEAM “tools” side of the business because he was/is getting most of his “riches” from and that the cd’s are specifically produced to brainwash one into becoming a “follower”–no doubt about it. The more people on “system” means more people are brainwashed for the period of time. The build and replace aspect comes from being brainwashed–wake up–get out–wash–rinse–repeat.

    Sandman, I hope this helps. I know that everyone has different opinions and ideas of what they want out of life, but LIFE or any MLM the answer.

  191. AlmostIn permalink
    January 3, 2013 8:10 am

    correction: but LIFE or any MLM is NOT the answer.

  192. Bekah permalink
    January 3, 2013 9:23 am

    @ExAmBot I wasn’t trying to get support from this friend or the “outreach”, I simply said I was going to Africa. Even invited him to go. He said he couldn’t afford it (surprising eh? lol). Then a few days later he tried to push AGO at me, and I thought “if this works so well, then why can’t it raise the money for you to go to Africa with me, and let me do things my way?” But logic seems lost on LIFErs. smh.

  193. January 3, 2013 10:29 am

    Say cognitive dissonance? And they hardly notice.

    My bad if I misunderstood something.

  194. BigBNeedsWork permalink
    January 8, 2013 8:23 am

    I just received this speech, almost verbatim. Thought I would Google “L.I.F.E. Pyramid Scheme” before I committed to anything, which would be god practice before doing anything “to-god-to-be-true.”

    So glad I found this page. I received the above info almost word for word.

  195. January 8, 2013 1:01 pm

    @BigBNeedsWork – Thanks for your comments. Did you attend a group meeting or was this speech given to you in a one-on-one meeting?

  196. BigBNeedsWork permalink
    January 8, 2013 2:00 pm

    It was given to me one-on-one by someone I see regularly at a gym i frequent. I like the person, just didn’t think they would try and draw me into this scheme. I’ve been unemployed for 3 months now, but even if I was not actively searching for work, this is not something I could ever go for, hence the appreciation for this page. I was also astonished at the almost word-for-word sales pitch.

  197. Freedomhaha permalink
    January 8, 2013 9:01 pm

    Another life saved.

  198. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    January 12, 2013 6:29 am

    This morning I decided to once again, peruse OW’s blog site, and something caught my eye under’ Whistleblowers to Reformers?’ section of his blog opinions:
    “The Reaction of the Antagonists
    In the meantime, those who want to protect the status quo, for whatever motivation, behave by throwing stones, misappropriating the truth, mounting smear campaigns, and nearly anything else you can think of in the book of unfair play. Don’t worry, however, because we are not bothered by it. We understand competition, preach it everywhere we go, and know that name calling, bashing, spreading false negatives, and the like are nothing more than what’s expected in war (as the marketplace certainly is). We would wish it to be gentlemanly and accurate, but know that in this world that would never be the case. No reformer is free from criticism. Shockingly, even Mother Teresa was violently criticized throughout her life!”

    Mr. Woodward: I come from a STAUNCH Catholic family that had donated thousands of dollars to Mother Theresa/Teresa. You did not. You need to stop uttering gibberish. I met her myself at a University in Milwaukee, WI. Here’s the sad truth which hurt some Catholics worldwide when it was uncovered, and it’s been videotaped for sad posterity for the world to see, to the point where the Vatican had to issue a statement that she could have done better than she did. She was seen taking tens of thousands (if not millions) of dollars from the cruel Haitian dictator family; she was seen leaving dying victims on the floors of her supposed Calcutta sanctuary, begging for things and not be allowed to see their families while dying, etc., all the while she kept building one convent after another. Her own nuns left her and publicly exposed the horrors. This woman herself, left disturbing journals, indicating her mental illness.

    If you could so ridiculously use Mother Theresa as a reformer to be admired, why would anyone with an ounce of knowledge or brains believe what you say about your own “antagonists”? You don’t need anyone to start a “smear campaign” on you, for like that nun, you are leaving a trail of disgruntled former associates, law suits and , with the latest being that you couldn’t even earn the laughable “guru status” in a fair manner from one site that has now revoked your status.

  199. January 12, 2013 7:42 am

    Ha ha that is funny. He had scammed the scammers from just 3 IP addresses per the scammed, themselves scammers no less. The scammers realized they had been scammed. As if it matters the scammed scammers booted their confirmed scammer from their dubious list of self-labeled top leadership guru scheme for obviously having scammed their scam. The crown jewel is the FTC booting the atchoo, self-rigteous…mhhh nah, impious scamsters. It doesn’t escape anyone even an unobservant possum, that Odubious is a harlot for anything that would seemingly afford him some credence. Wrong move, again on mother Teresa, eh odooby?

  200. Melanie Morgan permalink
    January 12, 2013 10:16 am


    Thank You, I learn much from your contribution .I was raised Catholic but later left the church, I also and never knew that about Mother Theresa. Who produced this video?

    We all know that Orrin Woodward will use anything or anybody to try and fake a positive image.

  201. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    January 12, 2013 1:02 pm

    Raquel: the sad part about my prior post on this thread: how much finding out the truth hurt…when you are a child donating your entire weekly allowance willingly and your parents scrape the bottom of the barrel for Mother Theresa—to find out later what happened was devastating. Her own journals are scary. There were people in foreign countries who literally started screaming when they saw published photos of her taking money from that horrid Haitian regime (who of course stole that money off of the backs of his own poor, too), etc., and that’s what spurred others on to show up in India with video cameras and investigations going. When I saw Mr. Woodward invoke her name the way he did, as if somehow she’d been besmirched unfairly, it became just another example of poor scholarship on his part. There’s more to come, too, re: his underlying venom of what he almost considers to be the “institutionalized poor”, but never once does he fault the system’s structure itself that’s designed to keep people as they are in different parts of the welfare system, etc.

  202. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    January 12, 2013 1:08 pm

    Melanie: there’s lots of information out on the Internet on Mother T. Steer clear of the propaganda by some Catholic factions who are no better than scamming MLMs…seek and ye shall receive more than you ever wanted to know. Oh, but make sure you find photos of all of the nunneries she built as her wards lay on blue mats on floors, begging for food, water and family as they lay dying, unable to feel human touch or the whisper of a loved one. You find that video. And then weep. Find the interview of one of her own nun charges who “escaped” and came back to the USA and told her story. It’s out there. Woodward’s portion of his usual, at least partly nonsensical blogs, really corked me when I saw him invoke her as the saint I hope she never becomes. (Oh, and there’s an actual interview with a Vatican representative out there, too.)

  203. Melanie Morgan permalink
    January 12, 2013 1:54 pm

    oops sorry, I just realized I too spelled her name wrong. Thanks Wisdom.

  204. January 20, 2013 5:04 pm

    Very Interesting that you only post comments supporting your side of the story…..we all know there are always two sides. The fact that you do not show any other opinions says a lot. I have commented before and it was never posted. Must not have measured up to your negative standards.

  205. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    January 20, 2013 6:22 pm

    Kali: your comment is absolutely not true. Amthrax allows the other viewpoints, but usually, the “teamers” just hit n run, so posts get lost in the shuffle, i.e., they don’t post anywhere near as much. And likely, your prior post you mentioned was in moderation and showed up later–I’ve had that happen, too. The ironic thing here is: it’s LIFE/Team that will not allow any negativity on THEIR blog sites. They even have specific sites set up to smear not only Raquel, but myself, and neither of us are allowed to comment, correct or stand up for ourselves. Be careful where you cast the first stone–it might turn into a boomerang. (this last statement in also in response to you from that other thread where you brought God into it…think the Bible talks about throwing stones, too, when the stone-throwers are even more guilty than those whom they stone.)

  206. freedomhaha permalink
    January 20, 2013 7:03 pm

    Kali- Amthrax has allowed at least 40 members of TEAM to post on here even though they are in support of TEAM. However, we cannot post on a TEAM site. I am grateful that you have found this site, but please use the facts.

  207. No Team For Me permalink
    January 20, 2013 8:36 pm

    Kali – why is it that all the teamscam site and the anti-amthrax sites never allow anyone to post opinions unless they align with the cult culture of team?

    Also, are there any actual facts on this site you would like to discuss? The people on this site are very willing to discuss anything (unlike the teamscamers who refuse to discuss anything with anyone who has a opinion different than their own.)

  208. January 20, 2013 9:58 pm

    @Kali – The only comment that I’ve seen you post before is this one on June 11, 2012. Were there other ones that I might have missed?

  209. Melanie Morgan permalink
    January 20, 2013 10:04 pm


    Is there a way to keep the IAB….gamed Guru post as a TOP post and put in the Primer? It is quite comical that they are all talking about “Titles” are no longer are important after they milked that for seems like eons on every media source they could find? I have seen where Orrin Woodward STILL has this up on the Team website as of yesterday!!!! WOW.

    Do you think they would ever admit they did this intentional? This would be the HONEST thing to do!…I will never hold my breath for them to EVER be honest and admit what they know they do and have done.. I wonder who they paid to place those 2000 votes? Do they have a conscience, when they were clicking away for those votes? Are they willing to keep this secret or did they just get 3 suckers to willing sell out to get a crumb ego stroking or find favor with Orrin?

    They were caught gaming the Guru status amazing how people twist and spin that..with what if…they all voted @ a major…Bahahahahahaha!

  210. January 20, 2013 10:07 pm

    Melanie – I added the link to the new IAB and Leadership Gurus post in the Primer (section 10).

  211. Melanie Morgan permalink
    January 20, 2013 10:41 pm

    Thanks Amthrax! 😀

    Kali Weber~

    I seriously shook my head at your statement. You must not know, that none of the Team blogs allow dissenting comments, so for you to accuse Amthrax of the very thing the Team does is very hypocritical. I have not seen one person on here (but you of course) that didn’t ever see their comment posted. But maybe Amthrax has solved that, is that the comment you are talking about?

    I have seen many jump to that same conclusion and because it was in moderation they attacked Amthrax, to later find their comment published, it did made them look very foolish.

    Kali, unfortunately, we have all been right where you are. I will say you know not who and what you are really a part of. I could point out numerous “negative comments” even threats on this site from Team LIEfers.

    Do you honestly believe they are as “positive” as they appear? I hope for your sake you don’t find out the hard way so please stop kidding yourself,

  212. Freedomhaha permalink
    January 21, 2013 8:06 am

    Kali- I was curious as to what percentage of your downline was making a profit. Thanks.

  213. Matt Miller permalink
    February 13, 2013 10:47 am

    To all of you Individuals posting on this website,

    Well I’m Back. This is the first time i got back on here since i posted on dec.? and the reason i did was simply because i was curious this morning on the replies it received. I must say it was rather amusing, and yet i was also dismayed at the lack of integrity on several. But don’t run away just yet. I have a story to tell you.

    Since your time is valuable and mine is to, First of all, I may seem like a immature 25-30 yr. old to you and thats ok with me. But having lived long enough to know every person has an opinion and most of us (ME First) before we have the facts. I’ll try to let you in on my life so that you can just simply decide for yourself if team/life helps anyone.

    My Wife and I have had the blessing of surviving almost 18 yrs of marriage, and to say its been easy would be a selfish answer because no marriage is all a honeymoon. but after being married 1.5 yr our Baby #1 was born but didn’t live. A blow we weren’t expecting in our life. But 15 months later we were once again excited to have baby #2 Bless our life and all was well, O what a gift.Several yrs. later Baby #3 all healthy, then couple yrs. later #4 came and died at birth also. WHAM, What is wrong, do we deserve this God? I didn’t want anymore children after that, and was content to just let it at that. But after several yrs. of healing my wife said i really want to have a girl since the first four were all boys. And of course i couldn’t say no and a yr. later we were blessed to have a darling picture of a baby girl join us, we seemed complete now.

    (Forward 2 yrs.)

    Life was really looking like a dream, and then one day i was doing some work on our driveway Spreading gravel at our house with a skidsteer on tracks, having instructed the boys on the danger of the equipment, and having them stay on the concrete in front of the garage for their safety, I did all the work and surveying my job decided that i needed to make one final backdrag to level out last little ridge and turning around did so knowing fully that my boys were watching from about a 100 ft. away. What actually happened next is only a nightmare, as unknown to me our oldest son being 8 now seeing no danger in riding his bicycle down to where i was at and no doubt figured i would see him, rode downhill towards me, and yes you guessed correctly i backed over him and the bicycle.

    People unless you have been personally involved in something like this you have no idea what LOSS is,That was a gut check like i have never ever experienced in my whole entire life. And as you can imagine i lost any and all motivation to live. I wrestled with my sanity for 3.5 yrs. trying to figure out why God would allow this to happen to us, after all we had already given up two children, And i even questioned if there really was a God or if that was just a myth that people believed in, Even the Pastors where we attended church at didn’t have answers. And i became an angry bitter man.

    Until finally 1 day i decided that i don’t care any more what people say about me i was going to find the truth about me wherever i can and i developed a hunger to know what truly mattered in this life and the first thing in front of me was God???? well if there is a God, then i was created, and if i was created, then that meant i had a purpose, and then what was my purpose? And this is not a joke, literally within a time of praying for God to show me what ever His will is.

    My Friend showed us Team, And we were very sceptical at first and decided we would simply see for ourselves if what he was saying was true. And I’ll tell you this that he wasn’t exaggerating anything. Because here is why thru listening and reading i came to understand how that life here on earth is only a journey and that the Master has a plan and a purpose for us. Because thru all of information that we have sorted thru i have come to first learn how to understand my wife, be better dad to my son and daughter we still have, accept what God allowed in our lives to make us better not bitter, It is thru all this that we actually care about other people that are hurting, where before i didn’t really care about all of You out there,your hurts.

    And I even understand that for all of you that are making these statements about Team and Life, Orrin Woodward, Chris Brady, And the rest of the Policy Council and every one else involved, that you have hurting hearts from some past experience but you choose to forgive and let go of the past and allow it to make you better instead of bitter, Because i can Testify your ATTITUDE is a reflection of your choice not your experience. And i have learned that the World is indeed filled with this Christian Hypocracy where people get sucked into a system where unquestioned submission is what is demanded, when in reality the leaders are asking for unquestioned authority. And that that is NOT LEADERSHIP, That IS DICTATORSHIP.

    And I come from such a setting, and thats why we made some hard choices and left that kind of religious thinking. Because true Leadership Encourages Freedom, Liberty and Justice for All. If Team isn’t for you then thats ok with me. But understand this i”m Ok with you Calling me punk, 30 or younger, being slapped around by a 62 yr. old Lady, (if you want to call Women something else, thats your choice). But how you believe about God doesn’t matter to anyone but God Himself, You’ll have the opprotunity to explain that to Him someday, But Here is what i can tell you that Team/Life will stand for the truth and as long as God gives me breath i”ll be out there looking for the person thats truly looking for a way out of the mess that society thinks is just the way of life, Because i know if it wasn’t for a friend that reached out to us, we would still be wallowing in ???????????????????????????????????

    Here’s a thought for today, Do you know why you Believe what you Believe? I Hope To Meet you all in face to face someday, With all My Respects, Matt

    [Editor’s note: added paragraphs for easier reading]

  214. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    February 13, 2013 11:19 am

    Matt….I didn’t “slap you around” (the truth is, I believe you were a little rude to us first) and no, I don’t offhandedly consider 25-35 yr olds “stupid” (idealistic maybe yet) , BUT if you think you’re the only one with stories about horrible things happening and loss of children, guess again: I lost 4 of my 5 children. I spent a 30 yr career caring for others. All of this has NOTHING to do with losing money in MLM schemes, if you ask me. It has to do with the mathematical certainty of 96+% losing at it, and the LIFE/team “gods” know it. Actually, if one leaves the emotions, the all-fired religious flak out of it and one’s past sad daily non-productive experiences out of the equation once and for all, getting involved in a “dream-selling MLM” can be seen for what it is: just a plain, old-fashioned bad idea to get involved, at least for the majority of people. I have nothing against you, personally.

  215. freedomhaha permalink
    February 13, 2013 11:19 am

    Matt- I respect you for coming back on here to share your story. All of the outstanding information that you mentioned about leadership as well as spiritual truths are available for free outside of the Team. What we argue here is that it is wrong for 3% of people sitting atop a pyramid to make money from the other 97% of people at the lower parts of the pyramid. I hope you will stick around to address those facts.

    Gods blessings.

  216. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    February 13, 2013 11:22 am

    Matt….I didn’t “slap you around” (the truth is, I believe you were a little rude to us first) and no, I don’t offhandedly consider 25-35 yr olds “stupid” (idealistic maybe yet) , BUT if you think you’re the only one with stories about horrible things happening and loss of children, guess again: I lost 4 of my 5 children. I spent a 30 yr career caring for others. All of this has NOTHING to do with losing money in certain MLM schemes, if you ask me. It has to do with the mathematical certainty of 96+% losing at it, and the LIFE/team “gods” know it. Actually, if one leaves the emotions, the all-fired religious hoopla out of it and one’s and past sad daily non-productive experiences out of the equation once and for all, getting involved in a “dream-selling MLM” can be seen for what it is: just a plain, old-fashioned bad idea to get involved, at least for the majority of people. I have nothing against you, personally.

  217. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    February 13, 2013 11:25 am

    By the way, Matt: you were on the verge of stating that I didn’t even deserve to be called “a woman” any longer—this shows your juvenile side: I’ve been a director, an educator, a mother and a grandmother……and just because you start something (weeks/months prior–I can’t even remember what happened anymore), is no reason to become immaturely “biting” again. This is where my 62 yrs gives me the wisdom—it really doesn’t pay for me to start in on you, personally.

  218. freedomhaha permalink
    February 13, 2013 11:29 am

    Matt Miller just provided us with the best definition I have ever heard of TEAM:

    “And i have learned that the World is indeed filled with this Christian Hypocracy where people get sucked into a system where unquestioned submission is what is demanded, when in reality the leaders are asking for unquestioned authority. And that that is NOT LEADERSHIP, That IS DICTATORSHIP. And I come from such a setting, and thats why we made some hard choices and left that kind of religious thinking.”

  219. switch permalink
    February 13, 2013 12:35 pm

    Ahhhh yes….. the classic guilt trip many liefers like to give.

    Where do I sign to get started, Mr. Miller?

  220. Matt Miller permalink
    February 13, 2013 1:46 pm

    Hey Freedomhaha have you ever been Amish?

  221. Matt Miller permalink
    February 13, 2013 2:20 pm

    And you Ageofwisdom truly have my condolences on the loss of your children, use that experience to help other people see that they to can succeed in their struggles, But please don’t let the pain of it control you, there is someone that can help, and i agree for free as did my friend, the problem i see is that most people have lost the ambitions to learn all they can, make all they can, and give all they can. why is that?

  222. Freedomhaha permalink
    February 13, 2013 3:53 pm

    Matt- I have not been Amish. However, my experience in TEAM was exactly like what you described there. Luckily I had a strong Christian foundation before I signed up because TEAM rocked my faith to be sure. Orrin is absolutely worshiped a “small g” god along with the other PC members. If you don’t think that you need “unquestioned authority” to Orrin to move up in TEAM try talking to contributors here that disagreed with him.

    Also, 97% of your TEAM is losing money. I personally could never sleep at night knowing that, but to each their own.

  223. ItsaPauling permalink
    February 13, 2013 6:24 pm

    Matt, were you Amish when you started with Team (TOD)?

  224. February 13, 2013 10:10 pm

    @Matt Miller

    How many copies of the Leadershift book do you intend to purchase?
    How many copies of the book Launching a leadership revolution did you purchase? Just wondering.

    @Matt and Wisdom,
    You have my deepest condolences for the loss of your kid/s.

  225. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    February 14, 2013 3:41 am

    To those of you offering thoughts and condolences from the Matt/Wisdom posts, thank you but it was over half a lifetime ago, and I only mentioned it to Matt to show him that we are all human and have heartaches. Perhaps if some of those children had lived, they could have talked some sense into the one survivor who got into this losing business. As long as people verbally jousting with me realize: I, for one, am not saying that the average joe is initially getting into it for reasons of stupidity or malfeasance—I think the individual is desperately looking for something in his/her life. And actually, I feel especialy sorry for the young ones (age 20-40) who then get caught in the cesspool crapper of those top eschelon money-grubbers who snake-charm all downliners with conditional friendship and Jesus as they brainwash them about OW’s (and other marginalized characters like O.DeM) personal take on history, society, culture and family–and all the while they are picking the pockets of the temporarily mezmerized and ignorant newbies, so that they can continue to pay for the ongoing, abjectly sophomoric, repetitive claptrap they produce and ultimately: to perpetuate the luxury they few have become accustomed to.

  226. February 14, 2013 5:10 am


    If this site allows Christian and Catholic bashing, you can best believe that it will allow both sides of TEAM LIFE to be shared. Both supporters and detractors post here, but since it’s against the rules set up by Orrin himself to even look at an anti-LIFE web site, I believe that explains the lack of pro-LIFE comments. By all rights, if they’re walking the talk, there shouldn’t be ANY comments from current LIFERS.

  227. freedomhaha permalink
    February 14, 2013 6:00 am

    Age- Excellent post. You absolutely nailed it.

    Platinum Blond- You are correct in that the record of dissenting comments on Amthrax stands for itself. In the year and a half that I have been a regular contributor to this blog I have had asked 22 pro TEAM members a question. In order for me to ask them that they would have had to post on here in the first place.

  228. Former Round Table permalink
    February 14, 2013 6:25 am

    Matt Miller,

    I understand that your affiliation with TEAM or LIFE or whatever they call themselves now has brought you some very positive things. There are MANY positive things I received from my long affiliation with the group. Believe me, the list is long.

    However, all that glitters is not gold. In my opinion (based on first-hand knowledge and experience), Orrin Woodward believes that he will get a pass into heaven because he is such a great leader; that God will ignore the lies, deceit, manipulation, pride, ego, and downright cruelty because Orrin created a “business” that leads thousands to Christ.

    The problem with that is, the ends NEVER justify the means. We are not allowed to lie, scheme, and defraud people because some good might come of it.

    Please go to your bible and re-read Matthew 19:16-26, the parable of the rich young man. That sums up the truth about the leadership of Team/Life.

  229. Former Round Table permalink
    February 14, 2013 6:27 am

    And by the way, will people please STOP saying that only the top 3% are profitable? That would mean that 3 out of every 100 people who register with Team/Life become profitable. We all know that is FAR from true. There are now eight couples on the PC, after nearly 20 years and might I guess tens and tens of thousands of people churned through.

  230. switch permalink
    February 14, 2013 9:18 am

    Bingo….8 couples within a 20 year period. And even some of the couples that made it to PC have filed bankruptcy and some of the others have even left. Can you honestly tell me that this is 100% integrity and honesty and the leadership we’ve all been waiting for???…. good Lord, wake up people.

    Look, Matt, I don’t mean to come across as rude but we’ve been reading these stories for quite some time now. And honestly, you do have my condolences for your children you’ve lost. We’ve read many stories from drug addicts/alcoholics to loosing children, now, that are used to draw in a crowd. As stated, this has NOTHING to do with any MLM or building “the business”. It’s totally irrelevant. But you use it, because it’s the only thing that works for you. Please stop.

    Matt says-
    “Because i can Testify your ATTITUDE is a reflection of your choice not your experience….”

    (again, not trying to come across as rude) but can you honestly tell everyone here what their personal experience was with team, Matt? Because, according to your statement,…you can, right?

    Lets talk about “the business”…. When I see them calling each other their “business partners” (as they do on their blogs), don’t you think that other person would be allowed to see the monthly profits or tax info from previous years if they’re officially a “business partner” of theirs? But instead, they jot down in their P&P’s that no one is allowed to show their tax info and that the PC is allowed to take “your business” at anytime for any reason?

    And yet, God has lead you to team/Life? You’re kidding, right?

  231. freedomhaha permalink
    February 14, 2013 9:20 am

    Former RT- The point that you make about the 3% is one that I brought up a week or so ago, and it is one that really hits home for me. When LIEfers get on here I phrase it like that because when I saw it posed like that I was taken aback. I felt like I was stealing from the rest of my team (which I was). Hopefully the numbers make people wake up!!!

  232. Frustrated permalink
    March 21, 2013 10:32 pm

    I would just like to say that I wouldn’t want counseling from someone who hasn’t had a FORMAL education in social & or psychological science. I can counsel you and blow smoke out my ears all day long but it doesn’t make it good counseling.

  233. March 23, 2013 5:59 pm

    Wow. Everyone has to work hard to gain anything right? I am meeting honest people with honest testimonies and to see something like this is garbage! If something doesn’t work for you go find something that does! I just started and in my first week I got a home visit, 3 people to sign on and I’m still going with appointments like crazy. Don’t give me that! Oh and God bless! -Ray

  234. March 23, 2013 7:12 pm

    @Ray Ray – Do keep track of your income and expenses each month. Remember, if you are spending more than you are making, your business is taking a loss.

  235. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    March 24, 2013 3:38 am

    @Ray Ray: okay, then the economists are lying. Forbes investigation reporter is lying. The Federal government is lying about the percentage of people who will fail. And anyone whoever lost money is lying. Families that have had bad experiences with what gets inculcated into unsuspecting newbies are all lying. Amthrax and others on here are lying when they came up with the public foreclosures, etc., on supposed upper eschelon muckety-mucks? EVERYONE else is lying????

    Sorry, but this sounds like it could only come out of the mouth of someone already sucked into “cult mode” as the exact one who would suggest such a thing. You think you’re free and loved in that group? I DARE you to: ask to see your upliners taxes for those that were in for all of 2012. Why, if it’s so good, they should jump at the chance to convince you, right? I DARE you to miss a meeting and tell them you’d rather be home with family. I DARE you to question anything. In fact, um, I DARE you to tell them you come onto AMTHRAX and make commentary. (This was the first verboten thing that happened to my grown child upon entering these gates of Life/Team hell.)

    (Note: no one said that everyday people who join are bad or have ill intentions [they DO become dangerous in a way, though, when they parrot and spread the hidden agenda of the creator of this particular MLM monster], or don’t work hard to try to get ahead in the business, etc., and a very small percentage will actually look like they are making money…for awhile.)

  236. Frustrated permalink
    March 24, 2013 11:50 am

    @Ray Ray

    Please don’t betray your friends trough all yours sales and recruiting. If they are not interested don’t push them.

    Your real friends will be the last to put space between you.

    Mathew 7:1
    Judge not, that ye be not judged

    I know how highly Orrin values Christian morale

  237. Freedomhaha permalink
    March 24, 2013 11:55 am

    Ray Ray- Please be aware that mathematically none of people you singed up can make a profit.

  238. Melanie Morgan permalink
    March 24, 2013 12:05 pm

    ray ray~

    Don’t give you what?…..The truth?

  239. Chris permalink
    April 4, 2013 7:24 am

    My experiances with Life are nothing like what has been explained on this site, thank God.

  240. Freedomhaha permalink
    April 4, 2013 2:05 pm

    Chris- Were your experiences positive?

  241. Mike permalink
    April 13, 2013 1:31 pm

    My experience since last July has been nothing short of life changing! I won’t say I have read every post on here that tries to trash my business, but you all pretty much say the same thing like “this is a scam”, It’s a pyramid, etc…… Sooo what you are going to try and convince everyone that they are suckers just because you THINK you know the truth? The compensation plan is legit, it is a performance based business. In a pyramid, the money flows up to the top where there is 1 person making the most. The most money in LIFE flows to those that actually DO something with the business. Sure someone can sit and have a spot to get the subscription to the life changing material and become a better person, that is up to that person. If they chose to actually do anything the potential to make a lot of money is absolutely there. Why be so cold hearted about something that actually does what it says it will do? Let it go!

  242. April 13, 2013 2:09 pm

    @Mike – I think this site has revealed enough facts about the leadership and history of TEAM/LIFE to give someone pause when considering joining (or staying). If you think it’s a good business, go and build it. Ask yourself the question, however, how many people in your downline are making a profit after expenses? How many of them are required in order for you to succeed financially?

  243. noteam permalink
    April 13, 2013 4:53 pm

    Mike – You obviously have not read through this site. I challenge you to be open-minded enough to actually study the information to make an informed decision based on facts.

    Read about all the lies & deception that go on behind the scenes. Read about the $3 million Orrin hid from everyone. Read about the bankruptcies of Darkangelo, Huber, Cullen. Read about the Guzzardo property incident. Read about the large leaders who had their business taken away. Read about the famous ‘guru’ award and how 2,000 votes came from 3 IP addresses.

    Team/L.I.F.E is not a real business. It is one of the most deceptive, unethical, unchristian orgnanizations we have ever personally witnessed after our own personal experience as former top leaders.

  244. Melanie Morgan permalink
    April 14, 2013 11:04 am


    It is not necessary to “read every post on here.” As a matter of fact you don’t have to read any..your choice! Except the Team controls that and you are NOT suppose to be on here, so where is your freedom.. “choices” with them?

    I would have thought you would have at least read the Life P&P, and possibly had the integrity to follow it? Did you know you aren’t suppose to be commenting on here? Perhaps that is why you don’t use your full name? Do you normally violate contracts? You know the contract you are bound to, which states you could lose “your” or Orrin’s business at any time for any reason (not in your control, Mike) and you could be “voted out” for ANY reason. So you are sadly mistaken if you think it is “your” business!

    I would recommend watch the Life compensation video’s done by Mike Collins, you might figure out it is a scam or perhaps you would recognize that the less than 1% THEY try and “convince” you, you will get..or have the lifestyle and millions they tout?

    If you’re conscience doesn’t bother you and you are fine with bringing in all your family and friends to lose money…. because the pay plan is stacked against them, then by all means….

    Good luck, Mike…keep doing what your doing.

    Btw~ No need to “convince” anyone they are “suckers”, that generally doesn’t take long for them to figure that all by themselves, if they are paying attention to their loses of course and not being indoctrinated…MOST quit, Mike…are you paying attention? How about when they your taxes year after year after year, you have almost hit the “year”…making any profit yet? Whats your odds, of making a profit MIke?

    Oh and thanks for describing the pyramid scheme….Life Team….the lions share of the money DOES flow to the TOP….

  245. Melanie Morgan permalink
    April 14, 2013 11:17 am

    Mike get your hands on the FREE E-book on the right sidebar called “Merchants of Deception”, and newly released book by an incredibly courageous author ..”SCAPEGOAT” His Memoir ….priceless! I am so certain you will find so many similarities with what you like to call “your business.”

    Let us know your thoughts about pyramid schemes, scams and what you find similar after reading them!

  246. Melanie Morgan permalink
    April 14, 2013 11:31 am

    Lets us know what you OWN, in “your” LIFE business, Mike. Do you make ALL the decisions, control how much or IF you get paid or continue to get paid? Would if you “embarrass” the Team? Do you know how you get paid? How about your “team?” or internally consuming “customers?” What about “territory rights?” Are you in competition with your upline including the PC and your downline?…..

  247. Melanie Morgan permalink
    April 14, 2013 12:43 pm

    Answer this, Mike: IF you were in a traditional “S” business (your own legit business) HOW long would you stay in business without a profit? How many YEARS could you continue to “nothing short of changing your life” for how long can you do this and have “your own business” sustaining with NO profit and keep running?

    Mike when people can go to the library and get that “life changing info” for FREE how long do you think people will continue to pay for that without a profit? Do you tell your prospects it is a “Business Opportunity”….do you not?

    Well, Mike that is a lot of questions to answer we will wait for your honest answers, that’s if you have the guts to answer.

  248. Melanie Morgan permalink
    April 14, 2013 12:58 pm

    BTW Mike…don’t come feed me the line of BS, you are a “B” business owner, you can’t convince me….Go back and read the Cash Flow…in order to be “B” business owner… you have to first OWN the business! Check your attrition rate, if your still confused.

    How many quit in the business are you continually replacing those that quit…”B or S” Business? That would be Orrin who owns “your” business.

    Do you use deceptive and misleading you tell others the truth about their odds of ever making it or do you tell them they own their own business or withhold information or refuse to answer prospects questions when they ask their legitimate business questions?

    One last thing, look up and understand what cognitive dissonance means, there is a great explanation you can from TED.

  249. Chrisxrascal permalink
    April 14, 2013 8:46 pm

    Mike – Sure Team ( Life) has some life improving materials and an atmosphere with lots of encouragement. This is why I think many do not see through the smoke and mirrors. The problem for me is that it is an Mlm. Do your research on Mlms and you will find that the business model for Life is basically the same.. I can understand your excitement for the business, as I felt like this when I first began. As a Christian, after a time of thinking about Team , I felt morally some things were wrong. I felt Team was becoming too much a priority over my life, I wasn’t having great success in the business and felt after a year I was hearing the same things over and over again. Some people on here have had success and you should read over their stories, you might be enlightened. Going on, I felt I wasn’t learning anything more from the information nor was I making money, but losing it. The problem for me is how many people sign up and lose money? I looked on this site and I am not a mathematician, but the odds are against you. Are many at all making a profit on this so called business opportunity? If so at what expense? Unfortunately at the expense of others. I know, you’ll say it’s not easy the business, but worth it. To some it may, but in my eyes it wasn’t. This site in my mind is warning people to realize that the Life business is set up in a way that most people lose money. I believe many people have put too much hope in team and believe that ” someday” they’ll have the lifestyle of the PC. For a lot ” someday ” won’t come.. I believe you’ll save time and money by letting go of the life business. Money you can get back, but time you could have spent with other priorities in your life, you can’t. Just something to think about.

    They also proclaim they are Christians, as a Christian myself I realized going after these pursuits was replacing my goals of my Christian faith. The root problem for me is it seems that they believe in Christ, yet they put the Team first. I’ve been to 5 Majors and the worship service is mostly solid in my mind, for what they teach from the Bible. The problem I see is the double mindedness. At the end of the service, they don’t go out there and say ” let’s go out there and spread the word of Christ! ” . They go outside in their team huddles afterward and team up, maybe some stop in the tool room and talk and get fired up on how to spread the gospel of team culture. I struggled with this war in my head for over a year and no more could I do it. Sorry you can’t say at the same time the most important thing in my life is how Christ changed you and than say it’s the Life business that has changed you. How does that glorify God? What message is this sending? To me team is all about the team culture spreading. Sounds cultist to me? It seems that they are much more fired up about business success, than about God, doesn’t it? I’m not against everything that team teaches or believes in. What I’m being most critical about is the value and praise they put on their system and team culture they created an putting it above everything else. Having success at any cost is not everything.

    PS : I am not the same Chris on the comment above.

  250. April 14, 2013 10:22 pm


    You are saying that if Mike and other TEAMmunists post here with their full names according to LIFE P&P they could be dismissed, kicked out of TEAM? Then why do they think they own anything, as in owning a business; seems to me the one who wields the dismissing powers has the ownership rights? I mean am I confused or is Mike really a business owner if he can get dismissed?

    And if he gets discovered that he posted here by that powerful person who wields the dismissing power then is Mike really a free US Citizen or a controlled citizen of … say North Korea?

    These dichotomies are messing up my brain and are making me get so confused I don’t know whether to scratch my watch or wind my butt.

  251. Melanie Morgan permalink
    April 15, 2013 8:05 pm



    Yes, it is very deceiving and for me it is morally wrong that they don’t insist on people READING their P&P and contracts, BEFORE they sign up! They continue to feed people the false utopia future they will all have and that is just NOT the REALITY!. They distract you from facts, change their name, control information, own your business (see P&P) and anything goes to protect their love of money and sacred reputation…this is clearly the most important to them.

    If they weren’t so hell bent on hiding the truth, controlling the information & others and their “business opportunity” and they lived up to even a sliver of what they claim they are, then they shouldn’t have a thing to hide!

    If those ‘recruiters & other mis..leaders’ would make it policy to point out the P&P and contracts to the prospects, get them to understand that they don’t have control over their or even “own” their business,… discuss and answer their questions HONESTLY….you know be “transparent”… as they claim… rather than feed them the hyped up false pot of gold and the end of the elusive rainbow.. distract them by pushing the paper across the table and have them sign it before they know what’s hit them…share the REAL odds that they KNOW about rather than promoting false hope…, encourage them to do their due business diligence, allow (like the rest of the world,) any an all true (negative) or both sides of comments, other than just the “positive” forced-fed ones on all of their blogs, answer to the facts rather than distract and deny and LIE and prove their own “claimed” so called facts,…. Well then I would say…. STP, STP, STP…!!

    Who in their right mind couldn’t then SEE that all the puffers rhetoric is nothing more than a lure!

    If they would allow people to make an informed decision, then “keep doing what their doing” Why not? the “business” is that good, right?…

    Although I admit I am a bit more straight forward, lol and only because I care and have zero tolerance that people are being LIED to in so many ways. I have seen the false friendships, played the game (while falsely believing I was “helping others”), believed most of their rhetoric and lies. I have seen more destruction first hand, than I ever care too again.

    I have seen what they will do to others, including slapping frivolous lawsuits on critics . Have seen so many business ripped out from under people who did the “work” it and ‘devoted’ years of their lives while believing they were building their passive residual business for their families all to have been LIED to.

    Those I know have, including our efforts and teams that have brought the master manipulators millions of dollars… that have bought “their” lifestyles, I have seen the real side of therefore I have very little patience for the LIES they get others to believe.

    So sorry to all those on here for being so straight forward but if you knew what I know, then you would know why I feel the way I do.

  252. Melanie Morgan permalink
    April 15, 2013 8:52 pm


    I did not mean that for you, hope you didn’t take that as it was, but thanks for listening!

  253. Melanie Morgan permalink
    April 15, 2013 9:01 pm


    Off subject a bit, but I spoke to someone who told me that they saw the plan from a lifer. They told me that they are using a disparaging comparison of the Amway spider ball vs their depth building that they learned in Amway!

    Except they didn’t mention Robert Kioysoki …hmmm…You know the same plan they have always shown and practices they got kicked out for…. hahahaha! And the Plan shower went into the spinning details on how Amway doesn’t work and what they do does….lol

    Now that gave me a great laugh!

  254. April 17, 2013 4:45 am

    Glad to listen Melanie!

  255. April 18, 2013 6:14 am


    A member is commonly defined as An individual belonging to a group such as a society or team while an OWNER is a person who owns something.

    Section one of LIFE Policies & Procedures Document does not defined ownership of a LIFE business (conveniently?); in fact nowhere is being an Owner mentioned in this document (really!!!). While everything else is defined a Member is not strictly defined (Common Orrin) but references to one becoming a Member is clear enough to distinguish a member from being an owner, thusly,

    1.2- Changes to the Agreement
    By executing the Agreement, a Member agrees to abide by all amendments or modifications that LIFE elects to make.

    Further, of interest is section
    9.2- Disciplinary Sanctions
    The Company may, in its discretion, take one or more of the following actions if a Member violates the Agreement

    •Terminate the Member’s Agreement

    Terminate? Yep! A membership is terminable, an ownership gets dissolved. This type of membership is akin to a Sam’s Club membership and obviously distinguishable from ownership of the same (Waltons & investors)
    Why then do TEAMmies yak yak they Own a business? Do they not read and comprehend their employer TEAM/LIFE’s legalese? Just as in Sam’s Club scenario Orrin is the owner of LIFE/TEAM, TEAMmies have membership.

    2.3- Member Benefits
    Once an Independent Member Application and Agreement has been accepted by LIFE, the benefits of the Compensation Plan and the Agreement are available to the new Member. These benefits include the right to:
    • Sell LIFE products and services;
    amongst a host of other serious sanctions.

    So becoming a LIFE member is really becoming a LIFE/TEAM sales person, A.K.A. a commissionable Jaaay Ohhhh Bheee holder.

    Is there a TEAM/LIFE member willing to disapprove LIFE/TEAM Policies & Procedures and prove how they own their own business?

  256. Freedomhaha permalink
    April 19, 2013 4:53 am

    I don’t think anyone on here would argue that Team is life changing. It sure as heck changed my life by giving me less cash, less time with my family, and a membership to a cult! Fun! Yay!

  257. Kevinn permalink
    April 27, 2013 1:35 pm

    Just a reminder to the reader. Some people write negative remarks have an agenda. Who you choose to believe is your choice, but in every business pursuit you will work very hard to achieve success. Realize the goofiness of negative posts this way, “if you read it on the Internet, it’s got to be true!” For those who believe negative press about the Life business, perhaps you should consider this short YouTube video which helps point out the motivation and feelings behind the critics. Copy and Paste in your browser.
    Check it out.

  258. April 28, 2013 7:32 am

    @Kevinn – I read a lot of stuff from TEAM/LIFE on the Internet? Does that mean it’s automatically true or false? Of course not, like with anything, one has to do research to discover truth from fiction.

  259. Mike Collins permalink
    April 28, 2013 8:17 am

    Since we are offering reminders to our readers I would also like to remind them that, occasionally we get a Teambot dropping by to post a comment that he/she thinks is clever. A Teambot by the way, is someone who is on Team and follows the “leaders” religiously and gobbles up the garbage they spew ( i.e. you’re gonna be rich! ) like a starving man gobbles up a bowl of porridge, who most of the time has never actually turned a profit form their “business”.

    What people like kevinn do is snipe their comment then disappear without ever commenting on the myriad of proven facts offered here for the reader. Facts like at least 95.5% of people involved in the Lief business will NEVER turn a profit on their business from the network. Facts like, a number of Life “leaders” have filed for bankruptcy all while flying around the country speaking/coaching people how to become financially free.

    What say ye kevinn? Are you turning a profit? I’ll bet money you aren’t. And if you are, tell me how many people on your team and I’ll tell you how many are failing. It’s mathematically guaranteed.

  260. Mike Collins permalink
    April 28, 2013 8:19 am

    Here are a few mathematical facts for you kevinn. Perhaps you can comment on these

  261. Kevinn permalink
    April 28, 2013 10:08 am

    Math has nothing to do as to whether someone succeeds or fails, but not understanding calculus might (in other words, not properly calculating personal limiting factors, and then hurdles outside of ones control that they will have to learn how to overcome).

    If you look at S.B.A. facts, you’ll discover a vast number of business start ups fail, and mostly because of unlearned skills that a business like LIFE offers people. I have a friend who started a video store a few years ago. It failed miserable and quickly, within the first 30 days in fact. I’ve both failed and succeeded tremendously in traditional business. LIFE is no different than anything else out there. I think you simply don’t understand the price of success, or how hard traditional business is compared to a business like LIFE, or any other MLM… It’s true that some MLM’s are better than others, like some traditional businesses are better than others, but LIFE offers a low investment, and is the least expensive business to operate of it’s kind that I’ve ever seen.

    However, not everyone fails Mike, and the stats here are no worse than they are in anything else. Why? It’s not the size of the individual in the fight, it’s the size of the fight in the individual. If you don’t know what you want out of life, (a desire or dream) you’re already failing. However, consider a forced failure, and let me ask you;
    1) Is our country heading in the right direction today?
    2) How many politicians have failed simple accounting and bounced checks in their lives? or who cannot manage a checking account at all, lie about their taxes, yet are voted in year after year to balance the national checkbook… Hmm! Forcing failure upon others!
    3) Are you concerned that the American dollar is on it’s way out the door as being the reserve currency of the world? Do you know what that even means for you and your family?

  262. Kevinn permalink
    April 28, 2013 10:22 am

    @ Amthrax, Researching anything using the Internet can help you quite a bit. I used the Internet to research where Kioti tractors originate from. Had a bit of a time discovering the answer because so many people have opinions that they think matter, that are irrelevant to the question, but the Internet is filled with comments, because it’s a gossipers paradise. Eventually I found what I wanted.

    To succeed in the Adult Care Business, I didn’t research the opinions of others before I decided to start that business. However, opinions came to me by the truckload, “you’re going to do what?” and then they proceeded to tell me that I’d fail. How stupid. Twenty five years later, I’m still going stronger than ever, and will have my best year this year despite a depressed area, and horrible economy.

    I’ve raised my kids to “Never Allow Someone Else’s Experience to Become Your Reality!”
    There’s good reason for that, and you can read it in my response to Mike.

  263. Mike Collins permalink
    April 28, 2013 11:41 am

    “Math has nothing to do as to whether someone succeeds or fails”

    Kevinn, when dealing with an MLM model specifically, your statement is absolutely untrue. Math has EVERYTHING to do with it because of the allocation of profit dollars and where they go. You either don’t understand this yet or you do understand it and you are a liar. Either way it does not change the facts. If you don’t understand this and you would like to watch my video series and if you have any questions email me at

    “If you look at S.B.A. facts, you’ll discover a vast number of business start ups fail”

    This is completely irrelevant in that SBA statistics have nothing to do with MLM models. In fact, MLM statistics are FAR, FAR worse than a traditional business model and that is easily proved by simply consulting any income disclosure statement.

    “LIFE is no different than anything else out there.”

    When compared to traditional business this couldn’t be further from the truth. When compared to other predatory MLM models that prey on the uninformed then it is true.

    “I think you simply don’t understand the price of success, or how hard traditional business is compared to a business like LIFE, or any other MLM”

    And what EXACTLY, do you base this on? Do you know me? You see Kevinn, statements like these are what the MLM world teaches you right out of the MLM handbook which reads something like this: When facing a critic, attack their character, imply they are failures or that they are mad at MLM because they failed etc. etc.

    Here is the reality Kevinn. My name is Mike Collins. I was a Ruby in Monavie. I sponsored over 40 personals into my business. My team and I brought over 4,000 people into my organization. In my entire organization there were less than 5 of us who made any money worth speaking of. And for those who didn’t make money, it was not for their lack of trying. The MATH was working against them from the start….just like it is you.

    One final fact about me: I have owned 5 companies. I have run 3 others and was paid well to do it. I retired in 2008 at the age of 43 with a substantial residual income. So tell me again please smart guy who has come here to educate us with his supposed brilliance how I “simply don’t understand the price of success” How old are you anyway?

    “However, not everyone fails Mike,”

    True. There are always a small few who will make money at the expense of the masses in MLM. Watch the video and pay particular attention to the allocation of profits part.

    “And the stats here are no worse than they are in anything else.”

    A bald faced lie OR………a statement made in complete ignorance of the facts.

    “1) Is our country heading in the right direction today?”

    Short answer: No……….Long answer and most important: This question is completely irrelevant to the question at hand i.e. Is Life a viable business opportunity for average people? A red herring

    “2) How many politicians have failed simple accounting and bounced checks in their lives? or who cannot manage a checking account at all, lie about their taxes, yet are voted in year after year to balance the national checkbook… Hmm! Forcing failure upon others!”

    Short answer: I have no idea…….Long answer: AGAIN, a completely irrelevant question. Another red herring.

    “3) Are you concerned that the American dollar is on it’s way out the door as being the reserve currency of the world? Do you know what that even means for you and your family?”

    Short answer: Yes and yes……Long answer: another completely irrelevant question. Another red herring. And I would venture to guess that I could probably run circles around you on the subjects of economics, world history, inflation, the nature of money and any other subject you have learned about in LIEF. But that’s just me being presumptuous now isn’t it?

  264. Mike Collins permalink
    April 28, 2013 11:52 am

    But let’s get the conversation back on track Kevinn shall we? Please tell our readers what you know about the Team/Life “leaders” who have filed bankruptcy. I mean, if the “leaders” can’t make enough in this model to pay their bills, what’s to make our readers believe they can do it? Did the Darkangelos, the Hubers, the Cullens not work hard enough? What gives?
    Why are these Team/Life “leaders” such “losers”? Inquiring minds really want to know.

  265. noteam permalink
    April 28, 2013 12:19 pm

    The difference between traditional businesses and Orrin Woodward’s TEAM/L.I.F.E. scam is that in traditional business, you have an idea upfront what the true costs are going to be.

    In L.I.F.E., people are misled to believe it will only be $50 a month and one Tuesday night a week. Then they are gradually brainwashed until they are spending thousands of dollars a years and over 100 hours a month and never realized how bad things are until they are in too deep and too embarrassed to tell anyone that they aren’t making money. They think they are the only ones who are spending more than they are making.

    I had one of the largest growing groups in this scam and the last year before I quit, I was the only ( I repeat – THE ONLY) person in my entire organization who earned a net profit after accounting for TEAM expenses. that is pretty pathetic!!!! Not one single person in my enitre organization made enough money to cover the expenses of their juice & tools. And I had a very big organization.

  266. Mike Collins permalink
    April 28, 2013 2:48 pm

    Nice post noteam. I just love when these Johnny-come-lately’s like Kevin come here and try to educate us and tell us that we have it all wrong not having any idea who we are nor taking any time to read any of the facts that are indisputable on this site.

    They just come here spewing the same old garbage without ever making a relevant point nor attempting to disapprove any of the facts that are listed here.

    I wonder why? These people really are brainwashed

  267. Frustrated permalink
    April 28, 2013 3:06 pm


    If you are learning so much than they must have taught you that a normal business will see at least a 35% profit on a sale. In LIEF the profit margin ranges from 2%-8%. So I ask you… How can you be successful with such a low return on investment?

  268. Kevinn/Tell It Like It Is permalink
    April 28, 2013 6:43 pm

    Mike, I mean really, you’re running circles in ignorance so far, and you should learn how to spell the word Life, because it’s not ‘Lief.’ My first mistake was in trying to bring intelligence to a group of cynical bashers.

    You are right, MLM does have a larger failure rate because start up is about the price of a tank of gas. Multitudes get in, and because of such a low investment they don’t take it seriously enough, never develop skills which makes those statistics worse. But hey, most local community colleges have horrible graduation stats because people use them as a starting place, but not a place to finish. And nothing I said is a red herring. You don’t truly understand how to succeed or develop leaders. Buy John Maxwell books or something, and learn success principles from the bible, because you’re flat out blowing it here!

    I’ve had success in both the MLM and traditional business world and still do. Six months ago I spent $100,000 on my traditional business, and am now making a profit of $1750 per month in that endeavor, which that will soon double. I found a way to avoid going in debt for just over $1,000,000 to generate that profit too, which is what it would have cost me by taking a more common business route.

    I learned and then developed many of the skills of how to succeed by joining a low cost MLM like LIFE over twenty years ago, where I even had a mentor who taught me numerous life and business principles which were priceless in themselves, and when applied to my traditional business, those principles have helped me succeed tremendously in many areas of my life, and actually helped me keep the doors open. This year just one of my small ‘traditional’ businesses will generate around $140,000 profit.

    You see, I buy assets that pay me money, spend money on learning materials like a LIFE business that further teach and give me things that I cannot get from a college curriculum, and then build equity in the process. Don’t you realize how to use information or apply knowledge? Have you bought assets that cost you money and now you’re all butt hurt, bemoaning success? Are you a whining liberalcrat who hates it when other people succeed in the Free Enterprise system? Man, get off your backside and go to work. If you’re a basher, uncoachable, know-it-all and dishonest, I guess it stands to reason why you’re twisting in agony, bashing those who choose to try.

    And success is available by ‘biblical principle’ to anyone who wants it, but liberals hate success, because they’re convinced that the price of success isn’t fair to those who CHOOSE to lose. Go read Galatians 6 and get your house in order!

  269. Kevinn/Tell It Like It Is permalink
    April 28, 2013 6:50 pm

    @Mike, and one more thing for your perspective. Who wins when you go to Walmart or any other store? The store owner. People don’t cry because not everyone in the store was able to leverage that massive electronic sale deal at Christmastime. It’s just the way it is, in life there will always be winners and losers. Winners win because they pay the price to win. Losers lose because they wouldn’t pay the price, or got weary and quit just short of the win. Grow up, and grow a pair…

  270. noteam permalink
    April 29, 2013 6:30 am

    Out of the supposed tens of thousands of people in L.I.F.E. who are out there showing the plan numerous times each and every week, plus the hundreds and hundreds of power players who show the plan a minimum of 15 times a month….how many people who were not in Quixtar have hit the Round Table level??????

    Surely if this ‘system’ and ‘training’ was so good, there should be at least 1,000 new round tables after over 5 years of all these plans? Just the power players alone should have done between 250,000-500,000 plans combined over the last 5 years.

    So if there were 1,000 new round tables, that would make less than 1/2 of 1 percenct success rate with all this ‘leadership training’.

    Oh wait, you mean there weren’t 1,000 new round tables? How about 100? Surely not? You mean, less than 10 new round tables who were not a part of the old Quixtar business in 5 years of meetings, seminars, weekends, 250,000 plans, and literally hundreds of millions of dollars spent on leadership training to produce less than 10 new round tables??????

    As a matter of fact, I dare you to name any round tables who were not a part of Quixtar.

    Great gig they have going there – scam people out of hundreds of millions of dollars for thoses results.

  271. Mike Collins permalink
    April 29, 2013 7:53 am

    Kevinn: Well done! Straight out of the MLM handbook again. When all else fails…attack the critic.

    You did not address one issue brought up. You just spouted your rhetoric….as expected. I only need to address a couple of points you made because the rest is just smoke.

    1. I know how to spell L I F E. The “LIEF” spelling is deliberate i.e. LIE….F get it now?

    2. Community colleges? Another completely irrelevant analogy…i.e. RED HERRING (you guys use these a lot. I know because I was a master at it. )

    3. I do know how to develop leaders. I have done so many times. I don’t know how you would know otherwise…..oh yeah!……attack the critic! Now I get it.

    4. Success principles from reading books and the bible? Yep, done that too. How do you think I was able to retire at 43? I don’t know how you would know otherwise…..oh yeah!……attack the critic! I’m getting the picture now.

    5. I’m happy for your success in the traditional business world.

    6. I’m certainly no liberal. This is just more of the MLM 101 attack thing you’re apparently so good at.

    7. Admonishing me to read Gal. 6 and telling me to get my house in order? You’re implying my house is out of order. How would you know? There’s the attack thing again.

    8. Wal-Mart? What does wal mart have to do with the question of whether or not LIEF is a viable business opportunity for the masses or simple a wealth transfer mechanism? NOTHING! This is another of your apparently endless red herrings.

    9. Winners win?…losers lose?….get off my backside and go to work?…..grow up and grow a pair? Did you not read a word I wrote?

    Kevinn, you are just another MLM wannabee who is angry that there are people who have been behind the veil that understand this model better than you and the damage it does to families. You guys like to quote the bible and sing about “free enterprise” and tell people how they can be free from their jobs if they will just do the work, believe, and spend the required $100’s a month to make it happen. And most of all, that God wants them to be free.

    Here’s a news flash for you buddy: Most of these MLM models violate every biblical success principal. God does want us to be free….but not at the expense of others. The LIEF business model requires a minimum of 95.5% of it’s participants to lose in order for a few to win. This is not a Godly model. It is a wealth transfer mechanism. It is a system of dishonest weights and measures.

    Proverbs 11:1 A false balance is abomination to the LORD: but a just weight is his delight.

    The dishonesty in this model is why so much recruitment by subterfuge is required.

    Since you want to bring “intelligence” to this forum Kevinn, why don’t you first display that you actually have some and tell us:

    1. What do you think about the LIEF “leaders” bankruptcies and what they have to say about the LIEF model?
    2. How much profit you are actually netting in your LIEF business after all expenses are deducted? I mean, if it’s really that good I might change course and decide to build it.
    3. If you are actually making a profit in this LIEF business, please tell us how many people are on your team that you derive these profits from?
    4. AND how many of those on your team are also making a profit after expenses. If you don’t know how to figure this out call me and we can do a screen share in your back office and I will teach you how.
    5. Finally, could you share your thoughts on Orrin being Qrush after assuring pastor Dickie that he is not?

    I realize you might possibly suffer from ADHD but if you could just focus for a few minutes on these 5 simple questions we would appreciate it. You can completely ignore everything else I wrote, you did in our prior exchange. I know you came here to educate us and change our minds so in the interest of bringing “intelligence” to the community, let’s just start with the 5 questions above ok?

    Thanks in advance for your efforts!

    P.S. JUST to be clear. I really want to know the answer to those 5 questions

  272. Mike Collins permalink
    April 29, 2013 8:35 am

    While I wait for Kevinn’s response I am entertaining myself over on the “Timeline” thread

    Perhaps Kevinn would like to make a comment on howthe leaders Amway, that bastion of free enterprise, view Orrin Woodward.

    Here are a couple of nuggets:

    “We terminated Orrin Woodward for philosophical reasons. We did it for legal reasons.

    But the main reason we did it is because the way Orrin Woodward ran his organization was a disgrace to every person who’s ever tried to build a Quixtar or Amway business the right way.”


    “it became clear to us that Orrin Woodward was a poster child for a long list of bad business practices that our critics hate about our company.”


    “We are doing our best to repair the relationships Orrin Woodward damaged and protect the businesses of the people in his organization that Orrin Woodward betrayed.”


    “We would say we were sorry to see Orrin Woodward go. But only if that were true.”

    GOOD STUFF! Thanks Amthrax for providing the general public a much needed service.

  273. Mike Collins permalink
    April 29, 2013 8:46 am

    Here is another nugget from the Timeline:
    “June 16, 2008

    “Mark and Anna [Huber]…went on to wipe out all of the debt accumulated becoming incredible leaders and servants on the Team. Would this have happened without Mark assaulting his old thinking and replacing with leadership thinking? I don’t think so and neither does Mark.”
    Orrin Woodward in If You Think Education Costs Money Try Ignorance

    Here is the headline just 2 years later!

    “October 1, 2010 — April 28, 2011
    Mark and Anna Huber file for bankruptcy”

  274. Mike Collins permalink
    April 29, 2013 8:56 am

    or how about this one Kevinn aka “I’me bringin a lil intelligence to ya”

    December 14, 2009

    Darkangelo writes about staying out of debt

    “Debt is a killer. It will steal your enjoyment of life. Be sure to stay within your financial boundaries this holiday season. The last thing you want is to start the New Year with a deeper burden financially. Know where you are financially and stay within those limits. You don’t have to impress anyone, just buy gifts that you can afford and express your feelings in the giving of the gift.”

    All of this while traveling all over the country “coaching” people how to be financially free!

    September 16, 2009 — January 4, 2010

    Joe and Laura Darkangelo file for bankruptcy

    Getting the [picture yet Kevinn? You see why we have a hard time believing people like you? We have NEVER heard of you. I doubt you are on the speaking circuit. Or are you? I don’t think you’re very high up on the food chain. If you were you wouldn’t be here cdommenting. You can have your business taken from you for doing this you know?

  275. Freedomhaha permalink
    April 29, 2013 5:51 pm

    Kevinn- What percentage of your downline is making a profit?

  276. Freedomhaha permalink
    April 29, 2013 5:53 pm

    Mike Collins- Yeah, but but but those are facts!

  277. MemoryLame permalink
    April 29, 2013 6:29 pm

    So one day Kevinn is standing before God, and Kevinn says, “I told a guy who was criticizing L.I.F.E. that he should grow a pair, quit whining because he was butt hurt, quit being a loser, and get off his backside and go to work. Why? Because I truly believed that only the few people who were profitable in this MLM cared about preserving a great country (even though it is NOT the kingdom of heaven), and the DOLLAR was really really important – important enough to make flesh and blood my enemy.”

    And God says…

  278. MemoryLame permalink
    April 29, 2013 6:53 pm

    I love how TEAM members only pick the scriptures that they think justify their lusts for worldly wealth and success.

    Try reading the whole book of James, Kevinn. Pay attention to the parts about friendship with the world equaling enmity with God, or asking Him for things to serve your own pleasures. How about the part where you specifically DON’T show favoritism to the guy with the most prosperity (aka financial results).

    Or how about Galatians 6, did you miss this part, “Whoever sows to please their flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction; whoever sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. (Galatians 6:8 NIV)”

    I suppose yachts and Spanish mansions are all about pleasing the spirit, right?

    What about the point Paul makes here as he continues (isn’t context grand?):
    Whoever sows to please their flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction; whoever sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. See what large letters I use as I write to you with my own hand! Those who want to impress people by means of the flesh are trying to compel you to be circumcised. The only reason they do this is to avoid being persecuted for the cross of Christ. Not even those who are circumcised keep the law, yet they want you to be circumcised that they may boast about your circumcision in the flesh. May I never boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, through which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world. Neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything; what counts is the new creation. Peace and mercy to all who follow this rule—to the Israel of God. (Galatians 6:8, 11-16 NIV)

    L.I.F.E. is to modern people as circumcision was to the Greeks. It’s a system of do’s and don’ts that feign inclusion to an elite population as well as some cause and effect temporal prosperity. If you do X then you will be ones of us and God will grant you Y.

    If you show 15 plans per month, you will be power player, god will grant you $.
    If you follow the system, you will be round table, god will make you job free.
    If you become a loyal follower of a man, Orrin, you might become PC and god will give you a yacht to “serve” people with.

    Woodward and his crew are the new(well 20 years old now) Pharisetical rule. The Bible is indeed a great book of success principles, but it is by no stretch of the imagination a book focused on temporal success in this life. Anyone who attempts to paint it as such is acting in foolishness at best, and in enmity to God at worst.

  279. Freedomhaha permalink
    April 30, 2013 8:30 am

    It is easier for a rich man…

  280. Mike Collins permalink
    April 30, 2013 9:08 am

    Looks like “intelligence” has left the building

  281. Freedomhaha permalink
    April 30, 2013 5:32 pm

    For those of you keeping track at home we are now at 35 TEAM/LIFE/LIFE Training/Whatever it will be called in 8 months members that have not answered my simple question regarding profit of the downline. I know for those that are regular contributors that this might seem tiresome, but I hope that it helps others that could be seeing it for the first time.

    Please do not give up on this community we are here to save lives.

  282. I QUIT (and glad I did) permalink
    May 1, 2013 5:18 am

    Love the last comment Mike! Hey freedom- I would wonder if you didn’t ask that all-important question of every teambot who drives by!!! Keep asking, it’s hilarious that an answer never comes… I read what they all say and it’s the same rhetoric I used back in the day. BARF. SO HAPPY I QUIT!!!!

  283. May 1, 2013 6:45 am

    Here’s another happy quitter, yours truly!

    BTW I love the downline percentage profitability question. I resoundingly second that you keep asking it.

    Great comments Mike. I think I will just have to lower my expectations on TEAMbots’ responses.

  284. Melanie Morgan permalink
    May 2, 2013 10:42 am

    Readers are still waiting for the questions be to be answered, Kevinn. But then again no one is stupid, and it is in your fear in answering them and complete typical avoidance; that says it all.

  285. Melanie Morgan permalink
    May 2, 2013 12:16 pm

    “You can’t wake someone who is pretending to be asleep.”-Navajo Proverb

  286. May 4, 2013 10:49 am

    Hey there. I was approached yesterday by a friend who wanted to get together to discuss and fantastic investment opportunity. I met with her and her friend to discuss the opportunity, which turned out to be the Life business. The above is exactly how the presentation went. The girl my friend brought to explain it to me pitched something that sounded incredible, that sounded like I would be able to help people and have my own business and make money and have fun. She played to the fact that I’ve worked my ass off in university to get into medical school. I’m ashamed to say she strung me along and I had no idea.
    She gave me a package with a book and a could audio CDs, booked a follow up meeting and encouraged me to listen to the CDs right away. Even in the car on my way home. Read the book.
    I read half the book. It was all the same stuff she told me during her pitch. While I may have been, ah, dazzled I suppose by her charismatic presentation and her fast talking and this incredible idea of Life, seeing this entire plan detailed on paper was most definitely too good to be true.
    So I did some research. Found this site, found out about Team (which was not mentioned during the meeting), found out about Amway and Quixtar and MonaVie. Did some research on commercial cults.
    I’m now horrified I told her I was interested. I have a follow up tomorrow that I don’t want to go to now but I have to because I promised my friend. I will not sign up but I have not figured out a way to tactfully to do without being rude.
    I’m so thankful I found this before I signedy life away to Life.

  287. May 5, 2013 8:08 pm

    @thansaruk – Glad the information on this blog helped you. It’s also good to know that the presentation you went to mirrors what’s in the post.

  288. Freedomhaha permalink
    May 6, 2013 2:55 pm

    Thansaruk- It is good to know that the work that is being done on this blog pays off from time to time. You have no idea how great of a decision that you have made to not join this cult.

  289. Melanie Morgan permalink
    May 6, 2013 7:55 pm

    Welcome and thanks for sharing your experience. Check out the comp plan videos you will really get the picture of what you will be saving yourself from!

  290. May 6, 2013 9:54 pm


    ” I will not sign up but I have not figured out a way to tactfully to do without being rude.”

    Glad you found the site and it helped you not to fall into the pit like it’s happened to many already.

    Don’t sweat how to get out of it. If you didn’t know they are desperate to sign you up, so you have control over everything. If you want to keep it simple just be honest and firm and communicate straight up you have no interest to pursue this program (don’t call it a business it’s not). If you want to be really nice you can add, “for now, maybe in the future.” Just thro’em some bones, it makes them that they have planted a future seed.

    They will most likely attempt a cult procedure on you called “overcoming objections.” Basically they will attempt to dig out your reason for not enrolling. Be firm don’t discuss your reason just state that is your decision and you ask that they respect it. They asked to discuss this program with you because your friend thought highly of you – so you hold that position. State frankly I don’t care to discuss my reason beyond what I have stated, that’s all I wanted to communicate. And you would respect that wouldn’t you?” Then end the meeting.

  291. Jessica permalink
    June 8, 2013 9:47 am

    Life is like mary kay. You can find anything negative or positive if you look hard enough. The point of these business are, yes you can make money. BUT yes it will take hard work and determination. LIFE has great information. and has struck thoughts in both my husband and me. OUR life has changed for the better and we have only been involved for three weeks. There are people who will take advantage of you in any place in life. BE that work or LIFE. We are surrounded by people who see no need to care for the needs and desires of others. it is not fair to judge one business soley on those people when there are those out there who are truly trying to find a way to make a difference.

    @Jessica – Since you recognize that there are people who will take advantage of you in any place, including LIFE, be careful. Since you are new, keep track of your income and expenses each month while you are in the business. Make sure you are not overextending yourself financially to hit some artificial goal put up by your upline (i.e. buy X number of books, get on a conference call with the super duper upline).

    Read through the LIFE IDS analysis so you know exactly how much your leaders are making off of the large base of lower-level members. It’s an eye-opener.

  292. Freedomhaha permalink
    June 9, 2013 7:51 am

    Jessica- I really feel for what is coming next if you continue down this road with LIFE. People on here have spent thousands of hours in order to help people like you. You are only involved three weeks, so you can leave now and save yourself so much financial and emotional pain. Look around this site and use critical thinking. Ask the tough questions to your leaders.

  293. noteam permalink
    June 9, 2013 9:37 am

    Jessica – it is true there are people who will take advantage of you in any business. But what is particularly troubling about L.I.F.E./Team is that there are so many people at the very top who are the ones taking advantage of others. There seems to be a pattern of intentional deceit and misrepresentation of the facts beginning with Orrin Woodward himself.

    Ask him why he was kicked out of Amway/Quixtar and then changed the story to make it sound like he was the hero. If he was the hero, then why did he lose his court battle and have to pay a reported $25 million between Orrin, Chris & Tim?

    Why did he lie to everyone and say he was sacrificing when we all switched over to MonaVie, yet according to the Salt Lake City newspaper, Orrin received $3 million for brining us all to MonaVie? And why was he reportedly earning several million dollars in tool bonuses during the 6-month inactivity while others had their income drop by up to 80% or more?

    Why did they hide the fact that Huber & Darkangelo declared bankruptcy recently while still speaking on stage about the great lifestyle?

    Why have over 20 major leaders who all used to work directly with Orrin, left the organization and want nothing to do with Orrin?

    Why was Orrin’s leadership ‘guru’ status revoked for allegedly having almost 2,000 votes come from only 3 different IP addresses (Orrin, Chris, Tim?)?

    Why did Orrin have over 20,000 people at major functions 4 years ago, and now only gets under 10,000? Where have all these people found out?

    Why do the Policies & Proceedures say that they can take your business away from you at their discretion?

    Why is there not a single new Policy Council member in the last 5 years that was not involved with Orrin in Amway/Quixtar? With all this ‘growth, leadership & training’ surely they could produce one new Policy Council from start to finish in 5 years????? Out of 10,000 people???? Not one???? Not good odds.

    Keep digging Jessica, before you end up like so many of us – with tens of thousands of dollars in credit card debt, years of missed time with your family and nothing to show for it except a VERY expensive lesson in business ethics.

  294. MemoryLame permalink
    June 9, 2013 1:28 pm


    You really need to do 2 things:

    1) read the Policies & Procedures for LIFE (they’re posted on this site). I know you haven’t read them thoroughly or you would know that at any time they can REVOKE YOUR MEMBERSHIP FOR POSTING ON THIS SITE.

    2) Ask all of your upline what percentage of their team is making profit.

    Also, keep in mind that no one here is out to hurt the members of the team of LIFE. We simply want to share our stories in a safe place where they can’t sue us or threaten us for doing so. Furthermore, we want to maintain a place, where people like you who will eventually have questions like those posted by noteam, can come when you start to seriously ask them so you know you aren’t alone when you come out.

    We are not negative for the sake of being negative, or because we got our feelings hurt, or even because we don’t like the product. We are negative because REALITY dictates that we call the destruction of people’s lives and finances for the purpose of a few a really negative experience. To try to put some positives spin on it would be disingenuous at best and purposefully misleading at worst.

    And well, I don’t live my life disingenuously and I don’t get paid to be purposefully misleading, but if I did either of those things you could just call me Orrin. 😉

  295. June 10, 2013 1:26 pm

    The statements on this site are all opinions. Many of them possibly coming from people who weren’t willing to work as hard as it takes. Is it possible many of these comments are from people who thought they had a get rich quick and easy plan. It’s pretty funny that when someone doesn’t agree with the premise of this site they are automatically a brainwashed Life or Team member. I’m not for or against the Life business but I have read Leadershift. It’s a great book that tells what’s going on in our great country and how we need to make a change before it’s too late. I find it hard to believe so many people have so much time to focus on negative and destructive talk with no alternative motive.

  296. noteam permalink
    June 10, 2013 1:58 pm

    Paul, These are not only opinions. I assume you are another LIFE troll trying to distract from the facts. Many of us on this site were some of the highest leaders & regular speakers on a Team stage. Yet after realizing the facts, we decided we could not in good conscience continue to look the other way.

    Many of us saw firsthand as a HUGE majority of our downline wasted thousands and thousands of dollars on the false hope that they would one day be one of the PC’s. Only after years, we saw as the overwhelming majority of our group never made a net profit on their Schedule C of their tax form.

    We also saw and refused to be a part of the selective information that was passed on to the masses to keep them deceived.

    The Darkangelo bankruptcy is a fact.

    The Huber bankruptcy is a fact.

    Orrin was kicked out of Amway, that is a fact.

    Orrin & crew lost a $25 million judgment, that is a fact.

    Tim Marks was fined almost $60,000 for not being forthright with the court, that is a fact.

    Over 20 major leaders have left Team, that is a fact.

    Orrin lied about and withheld information about the $3 million he received from MonaVie for bringing us all over there, that is a fact.

    Orrin’s guru status was revoked after it was discovered that the majority of 2,000 votes came from the same 3 IP addresses, that is a fact.

    Please stop trying to distract from the truth.

  297. Robin permalink
    June 10, 2013 5:00 pm

    I just had a phone call mentioning that Orrin Woodward broke a guiness world record for book signing. I tried to google it and got nothing. To me that would mean he didn’t but Life is saying he did. That is only my opinion as of yet. Anyone know anything about this?

  298. Melanie Morgan permalink
    June 10, 2013 6:24 pm


    If I only had a dollar for every person who came on here from those like you who state they are not for or against Team or Life, or who are trying to imply they are not apart of Life, I would see some cold hard cash!

    Paul search and read those comments, I am embarrased for you Paul.

    Do you belueve honesty is the best policy?

    Perhaps the lifers ought to add an “H“ it to all the “F“’ they they got goin on….I guarantee America would be better if the lifers would just start to practice the honesty policy.

    You are not speaking to people who can be easily be fooled…far from it!

    Why offer a bad “business opportunity“ when its all about Orrin and his self promoted political agenda? What are all those followers going to do…oh never mind…they are going broke under false pretenses.

  299. Melanie Morgan permalink
    June 10, 2013 6:48 pm


    So thats the lastest hype going around, haha! Guess we will have to “wait and see“ tjis could take years to uncover lol.

  300. Robin permalink
    June 10, 2013 7:16 pm

    Your right! Have to read the new Guiness Book of World Records. That would be the only way I would believe it. Science is amazing but I don’t think we have come up with cloning thousands of people yet 😄. I just feel sorry for all the people that just believe what they say is true. Yet I used to be one of those people.

  301. Melanie Morgan permalink
    June 10, 2013 7:55 pm

    Robin- I hear you. I am not sure I would believe ANYTHING until prooven, they are master manipulators and gamers(as in game or manipulate everything like their guru revoked guru status and best seller.) 🙂

    You can never trust a thing they say or do!

  302. noteam permalink
    June 10, 2013 8:31 pm

    Robin – I believe Orrin is stacking the deck by doing book signings at the monthly seminars that he speaks at. He schedules a book signing about 2 hours before a seminar at a location convenient for the seminar goers. Then, he has all the local leaders promote the heck out of the book signing and implying that you are not serious about success if you do not come to the book signing on the way to the local seminar.

    It’s hard to imagine the brain washing has gotten so deep that the sheep fall for this crap.

  303. Melanie Morgan permalink
    June 10, 2013 8:42 pm

    No team –

    Lest not forget the “offer“ or “promotion“ which is; the meeting after the book signing cost 15 bucks a person..BUT….not for the sucker who buys, gets signed, and brings the book to the metting to get in, …pays only 5 bucks!

    So, gaming it, well I don’ t know, fulfilling the agenda, no doubt….you decide.

  304. Melanie Morgan permalink
    June 10, 2013 8:43 pm

    What’s the cost of the book?

  305. Melanie Morgan permalink
    June 10, 2013 8:55 pm

    Looks like the full price is 25.99!! (hard cover), selling on Amazon anywhere from 11.85 used, 12.60 & 19.43 new, with one special collectable (haha) for only 29.95!

    What do you suppose they are pricing it at through the system and at seminars, oh wait Orrin said he wasn’t sending it down on BOM, but surely it is sold through the website?

    I wonder if it is going for 11.85 through them? Nah… 🙂

  306. Melanie Morgan permalink
    June 10, 2013 9:02 pm

    So if they are selling it for 25.99 and you are going to pay for the meeting anyway or already have a copy or 2 or20 on the “pre-orders“ , you already bought…well do the math, and wake -up! And what if you have 1 or twenty copies in your trunk already…do they get in for 5 bucks still?

    Anyone know what they are selling it for and can answer my question?

  307. Freedomhaha permalink
    June 11, 2013 3:39 am

    Pure speculation: I wonder if he is counting the seminars/majors AS book signings. As in “Look 8,000 people showed up to the area that I am signing books in. I know, lets call this a book signing!”

  308. Melanie Morgan permalink
    June 11, 2013 6:56 am


    Not sure how that could be counted towards the Guiness Book of world Records bahaha!

    Orrin is draging around Chris Brady and Tim Marks no doubt to try and make the ‘deal’ sweeter for those blind suckers to get their books signed..could’t do it as a stand alone..extra tool to promote for him, try to lend hm credibility, and feed his ego…..they will promote like he walks on water as they always have, good yes men..“ use the best in front of the rest“ ..He is great at “using“ others to serve his purpose, usually at the . Exspense of them….Orrin’s way of ‘using’ his “tools“ his strategy at his best attempt to claim his fame… win- win …for Orrin and HIS profits!

    The writtings on the wall,……ALL Orrin’s focus is on selling this book, they have no clue…while the people sit back and watch…they aren’t seeing the direction it’s headed…but are paying for it!….sit in those seminars and claim they are “changing the world“….without a clue….They aren’t catching onto what Orrin is really doing here….poor suckers….Why isn’t DeMille given the same attention….or promotion..hmmmm?

  309. Robin permalink
    June 11, 2013 7:58 am

    To noteam: you know it has been so long that I didn’t even think of that! But u are so right. I am sure they offered a promotion and set up the book signings to coincide with a seminar. And they all came a running to get their book signed.

    Melanie and freedom haha: yeah they say they won’t send it down on tools while in the next breath telling you to run into the tool room and buy 20 copies. I can hear them now. It is all flooding back “whoever buys 20 books and has a personal copy signed from the “fake set up” book signing/seminar gets to attend a special meeting with their upline emeralds or whatever their calling them now.

    It is amazing how the Life cult can so blind the masses that they cannot see the truth of how their books became best sellers, the guru fake status, and now the book signing. Common sense would tell them that if Orrin is the only one with the large book signing numbers then where did they come from and how did he get them. Oliver Demille has already been established as a REAL author without the backing of a scam business unless I am unaware of his background. Sad really that someone would go to extreme measures just to enlarge his ego.

    I am still saddened that people are being duped out of their finances, family time, and all the other f’s Life claims to give them. It has been enough time since we have been involved in the business and I have forgiven and even pray for the people that took our business. I look at what happened to me as a blessing and I am very thankful to be out of this and truly living.

    Time has flown and I haven’t posted on here in probably a year but I check back from time to time because I am waiting for the day that the top pins have to face the music. But knowing all scammers they would just pop up in another shady scamming way to live the lifestyle they are accustomed to. Not to mention their egos are accustomed to it too.

    Everyone on here has done a great job in exposing what really happens inside of team, life or whatever name they may currently call themselves. I am sure they have saved many families from the heartaches that are sure to come if they would have joined.

    Keep up the good fight for truth!

  310. Robin permalink
    June 11, 2013 11:03 am

    Thanks Amthrax. I will look at links later when I have more time.

  311. Chrisxrascal permalink
    June 11, 2013 11:18 am

    The price on the Life website for ” Leadershift ” written by Orrin Woodward and Oliver Demille is $ 17.99, No pv points?. Hurry rush! BEFORE THE BOOK SELLS OUT! Oh right I’m not on team anymore. I wander how many team members have bought more than one copy before even reading the book? It astounds me how far people on team will go to promote Orrin’s Books. Oh, you could also get the book on Amazon, but then you wouldn’t be promoting the precious ” LIfe ” business.

  312. June 11, 2013 1:13 pm

    They gave out PV initially during the pre-order phase. Once the book finishes its hardcover run (6-months from time of publication), they’ll be able to sell the softcover through the regular TEAM/LIFE channels. I have a feeling that Leadershift will be the Book of the Month sometime around December, 2013 or January, 2014.

  313. Melanie Morgan permalink
    June 11, 2013 7:35 pm

    Thanks Amthrax:)


    Haha..thanks also too you for the book price! Now if the followers would remove the blinders and THINK!

    They would soon figure out they are being taken and it would be cheaper to just pay the 15 bucks vs 23 for the meeting that they will have to listen to a speech about the book and how great he is, and how they will change America wit it!

    Who cares if you have a signature, not worth a fed cent, is it worth 8 bucks?! It will probably end up shreaded someday when they quit anyway!

    There was the standard hype and bragging how it was going up the chart on the pre-orders, so we already know A LOT of people already had at least 1 copy but leaders would have a minimum of 10!

    What is shameful is Orrin and his yes-men knows they are taking advantage of all these people for their own selfish reasons! I will never understand how he sleeps at night! Only someone greedy and has no conscience would do that to those who he knows will never make a dime in profit!

    Especially when they claim they better others lives and teach people about FINANCES?!! .how to make and keep money?…., not how to unecessarily spend and waste it!

    Do you think for a second Orrin would order up a bunch at retail or do the same for someone elses book, that . Wouldn’t serve his agenda or he couldn’t make money off it through his scam so they could get a bunch of pre-orders?! Ha!

    Sad that the people can see…or can’t think on their own….

  314. Rob permalink
    June 26, 2013 7:38 am

    I have been an entrepreneur for the past 14 years. I own two business and my larger company has taken a hit with the economy. I started looking at other avenues and a gentleman presented this idea to me. He told me he recently replaced his “job” income and is now “job optional”. I thought to myself that this business looks possible and would be a way for me to replace my “business income”. I felt who better to learn from then someone who has done it. I started just a few months ago and I decided to do exactly what my “mentor” told me. I jumped in the drivers seat and turned left when he said left or right when he said right. Now I know it’s only been a short while that I have been doing this and I have a ways to go to replace my income but I had instant results. I now receive a monthly check for more then what I invest. As a business owner that is fantastic because it has taken me years to become “profitable” in traditional business.
    I feel people who are looking for a “get rich quick scheme” are the ones who don’t succeed. They realize it takes hard work and chances to get ahead and then they decide to trash this or other companies because of there failures.
    It is unfortunate that anyone can write anything on the Internet because I feel you are trashing a good thing not only for an individual but the country! If you feel have have something better to help people and possible better the world why not post that on the Internet instead of this??
    Sorry for your negativity,

  315. June 26, 2013 8:47 am

    @Rob – How many people in your downline are making a profit after expenses?

  316. noteam permalink
    June 26, 2013 11:10 am

    Rob – We are not trashing – we are bringing up facts of what goes on behind the scenes. We are not people who tried and failed. Many of us were some of the top leaders in this scam.

    The Darkangelo bankruptcy is a fact. The Huber bankruptcy is a fact. The Newton bankruptcy is a fact. It is a fact that Orrin received $3 million from MonaVie as a reward for bringing us from Amway/Quixtar to MonaVie. It is a fact that he hid that information from us.
    It is a fact that many of us had big leaders in our organizations (who we had spent time and money developing) transferred from our businesses and given to other people.
    It is a fact that Orrin’s ‘Guru’ status was revoked because the majority of 2,000 votes came from only 3 IP addresses.

    It is a fact that Orrin, Chris & Tim lost a $25 million judgement due to their dishonesty with Amway/Quixtar. It is a fact that Tim Marks was fined over $50,000 by a judge for not being forthright regarding his anonymous email/blogging activity.

    It is a fact that we personally witnessed thousands and thousands of people losing thousands of dollars in Team/Lifescam year after year after year.

    It is a fact that over 95% of the top leaders in Team/Lifescam are the same people who built a large portion of their base years ago in Amway/Quixtar and now tend to teach revised history and make it sound like their success has been as the result of some ‘new’ business.

    the integrity of the people I’m in business with means more to me than making money. I refuse to sell my soul, compromise true Christian values and look the other way in an effort to make money with these scammers.

    [Editor’s note: It should be noted that the Guru’s voting irregularities were over a 2-3 month period, not during the entire time voting was open. Still, a reasonable conclusion can be made that ballot stuffing was done to pump up Orrin and Chris on the list.]

  317. I QUIT (and glad I did) permalink
    June 26, 2013 11:13 am

    Ah yes, the ol’ “If this is so bad what are you offerin’?” deflection question. I used that one myself hundreds of times. Good job Rob! Duplication is a wonderful thing.

  318. Jordan permalink
    July 9, 2013 5:58 pm

    I joined life two weeks ago because my business partner and his friend joined. In the two weeks I’ve spent over $200.00 that i don’t really have, and I have yet to get any answers from any one about how and why life REALLY works. My partners friend has been in life for a year now and came over from team. He makes about $2,000.00 a month which sounds great, but I don’t want to sell something to my friends and family that I don’t under stand how it works. Everyone at the meeting was kind of pushy and wants you to join NOW and start making money. I was pushed into having an open house which will take place tomorrow at 8. Now that i have found this page I really don’t know what to think, but I also can’t afford to lose my business partner, or let him use the companies money to help him with this. He truly thinks you will make $10,000.00 a month in two years time. I have said no for two months before i finally said yes. I felt good about my choice at first but now not so sure about what i have done. I don’t like how I am being pushed around even though they say that’s not what they’re about. I know you guys can’t do anything for me but I needed to get it off my chest. thanks

    [Editor’s note: Educate yourself with the links and stories on this website. If they don’t give you the answers, find them here. Don’t be pushed into something you don’t want to do. It’s your life, your money, and your business.]

  319. Mike Collins permalink
    July 9, 2013 9:55 pm

    Jordan, if you scroll up to April 13th you will see a comment I made with a link to a series of videos we did on the life compensation plan. Pay attention to the percentage of people that can just break even in this plan and to the allocation of profit dollars.
    Then read the income disclosure statement analysis available on this site. You will find in the ids that the number of people making any money at all is actually far fewer than what is possible. I should point out that both of these numbers are very very small. Good luck in your research

  320. July 10, 2013 4:37 am

    “I joined life two weeks ago because my business partner and his friend joined”

    Yeah that was a wrong reason to join. Actually you really didn’t have any reason to.

    “In the two weeks I’ve spent over $200.00 that i don’t really have, and I have yet to get any answers from any one about how and why life REALLY works.”

    They prefer you go along, don’t ask question and when you start to get people under you the process repeats. At some point when you are achoo, making some $$$, the hope then is that you will have been too hooked in to quit. And no you are likely not gonna get the answers you seek in the way you think you should get them.

    When you come to it you will need tact that will involve a lot of open, candid talking with your business partner (waaay more than twice as much as you have ever communicated before.) I would base my reasons to de-register starting with foregoing two.

    Good luck!

  321. Freedomhaha permalink
    July 10, 2013 1:00 pm

    Jordan- Ask yourself if you feel good about 99% of the people you signing up losing money. If the answer is “No” then run fast.

  322. Melanie Morgan permalink
    July 10, 2013 5:37 pm

    If it were me, I would get the money back and do your due diligence, and get your questions asnwered!

    Don’t make an ” emotional” or obligatory decision, that is what they are counting on you doing, and seems it has worked in their favor.

    Take your time and ask the tough ” BUSINESS” questions, don’t settle for anything but direct answers and proof of their income claims. Check out the facts, comp plan, and read the Policies & Procedures and check with an attorney (outside the team)…if any of that doesn’t line up, with the hype they have fed you or they are evasive with your direct questions, etc….then BIG RED FLAG, perhaps you then want to utilize their “money back guarantee?”

    You are already ‘feeling’ something is wrong?..that would be a major clue and for good reason! Follow that and do your research on their history, and why won’t they tell you why life REALLY works?! Bahahahaha, Take Mike Collins advice, you will find the answer to that question pretty quickly. Perhaps the FTC website might help or you could even get some questions answered through them on the ” business opportunity rule?”

    And lastly, you should be doing the “pushing”… with your hard questions and telling them to back off until you have had the time you need for due diligence, not the other way around! Any respectable business shouldn’t have anything thing to hide and should be afraid of you doing your research, the FTC recommends it, why wouldn’t they?

  323. Jordan permalink
    July 10, 2013 8:43 pm

    Well the open house was word for word what another speaker said. The speaker booked it fast when my friends and I started asking the right questions. The questions he stayed for he would change subject and answer with a question. He also said that if we don’t want the help and to help other people then we are not a good fit for the team. Then he said something about a victim lens and having our eyes shout to the real world. I asked about people leaving and the leader losing money and they said they don’t lose money, they find someone that wants to better them selves to replace the negative people. I have played the CDs and have to say that they just repeat everything they said on the first. And I asked about the other teams before life, they said that the others weren’t items that truly better people and make them good money. Well I think it’s safe to say I’m going to quit. And laugh at my dumb moment in real life.

  324. Melanie Morgan permalink
    July 11, 2013 2:50 pm


    Sounds like nothing new under the sun..Don’t cha just love how they try and “posture” (guilt & manipulate) you in by telling you “if you don’t want to the help and to help other people then we are not a good fit for the team and the “victim lens and eyes clised to the real world?” Wow! Still thinking they have ALL the answers, playing a god and think they know what is best for everyone, do they even know you?

    Geez, you asked them some hard questions they obviously wanted to avoid? Now I would bet not you or any other person said anything close to the words they tried putting in your mouth or assumed they know what you want or your a victim? Gotta love the way they assume you are just a “victim”, sounds to me like they were PO’d because they couldn’t create a victim.

    Gotta love thete ain’t no one losing money, haha really now? Did they present it to you or imply it is a “business” where you could achieve your goals and dreams, make a lot of money, perhaps get rid of your hated boss & job, or become financially “successful” like the PC? Did they (mis) lead you in any way referring to money? Why do they have an income disclosure statement?

    Man they need to try and apply some basic people skills, haven’t they figured out after decades, that if ya cut people low,…that doesn’t work, who wants to be “in business” with people like that?!! I thought they had a “world class leadership training business system?”… another epic fail.. Ain’t nobody got time for jerks and that BS, lol

    Good for you Jordan, now you can still find your real purpose!

  325. fastfruit2oo9 permalink
    July 11, 2013 3:45 pm

    Jordan – Also remember something I have posted before:
    IF this is a business,
    THEN this business needs to take in (Sales or Revenue) more than it loses (Costs) in order to survive = PROFITS.
    With that said, request to see the LAST 3 years of your sponsor’s Tax Form Schedule A for both themselves and their spouse. That was the ‘test’ I read from a person who is a Financial Controller for a company and they had been approached by a different business option (which was a Multi-level Marketing endeavor).
    – Even very high leaders just 1 level below the “Top 7” PC, have shown results of LOSING money, by having to rack up debts in business costs of over $100,000 and more.

  326. Melanie Morgan permalink
    July 11, 2013 3:45 pm

    Ahh yes, I do see they implied that they provide a business where you make “good money” , more then all them other businesses they were a part of?!! Do they see their own hypocrisy? But no one is “losing money?” Right.. Perhaps they ought check their own comp plan and income disclosure statement.

  327. Start Something permalink
    July 30, 2013 12:44 pm

    As I see many of the same people seem to be complaining in this blog with the same blog IP, Some of you seem bitter. I have run several large corporations in my career and see this business as being a great model for the future. How many more people in traditional business for big corporations are getting their benefits cut back losing 401k plan match. Or the company demanding more and more to where you have no family life. There are many companies now that will not let their employees take the weekend off. Why is this happening to American’s it is the biggest scam it is called WALL STREET, where they trade your companies stock and sell it without you the employee having any say in it. So keep working for American business and when you turn 50+ watch out the hammer is coming. Look at all of the city workers that worked for the city of Detroit now they are out in the wind. Look at all of the people that worked at Diebold that got laid off. Look at all of the people at Eaton that got laid off. Look at all of the people at GM that got laid off. Truly a great business helps people not gets rid of them when they get older. Sure not everyone becomes a success, for instant not every Mcdonald’s succeeds either. So one of the greatest franchises fails too, meaning this it is all how you help others and my advice is this look around you will not ever get ahead in the Current American business structure. So get out there and join something and start meeting people it is your only chance because it is not what you know but whom you know.

  328. Melanie Morgan permalink
    July 30, 2013 10:47 pm

    Start Something-

    Many of the same people complaing? How would you know? Not sure what you meant by the same blog IP?” Not only do you miss the entire point of the blog but That would be irrelevant along with your all your complaints about what is ‘wrong’ with Corporate America, jobs. It is obvious to me and probably no doubt to others you are “following” the same old and I mean OLD (decades) diversion tactics, rather than simply address the real issues. So forgive me, but it really is old.Nothing what you said has a thing to do with “the same complainers” or the purpose of this blog nor is it even relevant to Team or Life.

    I am very positive your Not making a dime in profit and are “new” to Life. How do you thing we could tell? Have you been told there is $$$$ some get paid from the “Team?”, No, why not? Did you know you don’t even own your own business? You come to defend the “founders” who own YOUR customers and business?! Have you read the Policies & Procedures, No? How do we know this?

    Lets review all your “complaints” and oh man, do you recognize what those here know or the irony in your poor attempt to make Corp & everything outside of Team/Life ” bad” to try and make the scam you defend look better, right?

    Do you think we don’t know, you are parroting? We heard and repeated that same irrevelvant garbage thousands of times too, I am not trying to make you feel bad. Don’t they tell you they are Not like corp. America, but then you compare it as is the same? Only the niave and gullable fall for that, we did but not ever again, we “learned” from our experience..You can call us complainers, bitter, or whatever makes you feel better, but your entire message is full of complaints, what gives?

    What you fail to see is the facts and real purpose we are here.To help people to not be decieved & snowed like you! You say you have run several large corporations in your career?” Then you should know you cant compare apples (corp) to sour grapes (life/team mlm). And it takes a PROFIT to stay in “business, right? How’s your (Orrins) business profit for you coming, how much profit vs your corp checks? How long can you “lose” money and stay in “business?” Do you want to help people out of the evils of a job? How many then do you have to bring in to LOSE for you to make a profit?

    Then you ask the question: How many people in big corp. are getting their benefits cut, losing 401ks or company demanding more and more of your family time, companies who won’t let employees take the weekend off(? Could you provide data, I’m not sure), and WALL STREET is the biggest scam, then watch out the hammer is coming @ 50, companies selling w/out employee’s knowing, and look at all the people who get laid off from other companies?! And on and on…not every McDonalds succeeds, etc. Could you please show us “how many” McDonalds “succeed” vs “fail?” All Red Herrings.

    Now here is the IRONY:

    What is the “failure” & “attrition-rate” in Team and Life and how does it compare to McDonalds and all the other “traditional” businesses?, (you do know that right, you did, study these facts, no? Did you see the comp plan anyalsis from Mike Collins?, no? How about their/ “your own business”, IDS, no, not that either? Hmm..wierd.

    .That IS really what this blog, is about, you must have had an oversight?

    How is the 401k in LIFE working for you?
    Did you know the Team Office let go and many workers, LOST THEIR JOBS?
    Did you know that the CEO, Chief LEGAL Counsel, (resigned, why?)
    What about The top info./IT person who worked there and Orrin’s very own Pastor and Mentor for years also, left, Why? What about too many to count, other top leaders who brought millions collectively, through building, All have NOTHING to do with them, Why?

    When a CEO and Cheif legal counsel “RESIGNED” what does that generally indicate in Corporate Companies?, Does it usually indicate a serious proplrem with the “leadership” when TOP people and droves jump ship, why? Getting the picture?

    Corp forcing people to wirk? We rarely EVER had a weekend off Building the business! Didn’t they tell you, it takes 5 and 6 nights a week for years, ( what are they telling you now same ole 2-5 year plan?) And where exactly does that get you? You might argue, in corp they demand, you had a choice….REALLY? Havent they told you…NOT if you want the “SUCCESS” right?.. you will have to do “what the leaders did, to have what they have” gotta “pay the price”, right? Oh they don’ t spell it out for you or tell you the real “price, do they?

    We spent years & way more hours than on any job and will bet EVERY leader would tell you the same., including them, IF they were honest.. worsesorry, much worse than corp. How many HOURS do you think the RT or PC put in their business, reading, listenig, STP, mentoring, taxes, thousands of meetings, or how much time does the PC spend writting books etc? How many weekends do they work? How many really “make it”, have you noticed there are only 7 who have “made-it” , out of what 10-20 thousand, and they all started “building”, in Amway. Haven’t thought that through yet?

    BTW, speaking of the “hammer” , it came down on our business long before 50, you see they decimated our teams without notifying anyone that was their plan ( well a few were let in on it) then they barked out orders, “demanded” others “follow”, then took our profit sharing leg and stopped paying us without notice or a phone call! All after 13 years of building, loyality and millions of revenue to them through our group! This happened to others, did you know?! And you think Corp is BAD?!

    Are you getting it? You believe it is the “future business model?” Good luck my friend, you are going to need a whole lot more than luck…a lot of money, more time than you can keep track, and a whole lot (thousands) of family, friends, “warm & cold contacts” to get started and Not quit, who you will bring in and guarantee their hundreds of thousands in loses loses collectively for you to make a “profit”. You ok with that?

    So even though Corp. Has nothing to do w/team or life, and you have ran several Corporations, I must ask., Are you part of the problem? Did you or do you do all those things you complain about, to your employees when YOU ran “several corporations?”

    Do your research and go “start something” that is good for humanity!

  329. Melanie Morgan permalink
    July 31, 2013 12:14 am

    One last very important thing, how many Corporations did you run, that made your employees herd into a room, give them about 5 minutes to sign a contract, without letting them read it or have a copy and if you don’t sign it you don’t get paid?!

    Is that how horrible, bad, Corporate America conducts business or any legitimate business or “cause” that has nothing to hide does it? Could you trust or work for a company that does that?

    Ylep, if you didn’t guess that is exactly what they did!! Just the same ole complainers, complaining. 🙂

  330. Jordan permalink
    July 31, 2013 4:34 am

    Man I love how you guys put people in their place. So my upline who lives next door won’t talk to me anymore after I left. My business partner who is still in life has enough respect for me not to bring up life around me. On a different note he was happy that he made $30.00 last month, which he had to pay $140.00 to get the $30.00. It’s funny to meet people who are in life and talk the same way as the rest, it’s all most like a robot thing, and then listen to people around here that have left team life. Life people” make great money have fun grow closer to your family”. People out of life” it’s all bullshit, and I’ve lost so much money, friends, and family because of the team”. I am so happy to have found this blog. Keep up the real word of life and helping people to see the truth.

  331. OhBeJoyful permalink
    July 31, 2013 5:59 am

    @Start Something

    From the LIFE Income Disclosure Statement (page 15) it says: “The average monthly income for all Members (Apprentice, Non-Qualified, Qualified) was $38.48.”

    How can a “business” that pays less than $10 a week be “a great model for the future”?

  332. Out in Pa. permalink
    July 31, 2013 11:37 am

    @Melanie Morgan

    Thank you! Thank you! Thank you! You are a true leader in every sense of the word and what “real character and integrity” is all about! Please keep exposing the fakers and frauds that continue to destroy families, marriages, friendships, and churches!

  333. Freedomhaha permalink
    July 31, 2013 6:11 pm

    StartSomething- What percentage of your downline is making a profit?

  334. noteam permalink
    July 31, 2013 9:18 pm

    Start Something – the people who work for the city of Detroit have a lot more protections in place and a lot better chance of having something to live on than the people who Orrin stole their business from. Just ask Ron Day, Melanie Morgan, Raquel Peters, Mike & Christie Raatz and the list goes on and on of people who thought they had a passive income, only to find out it was taken away from them at the wim of a self-promoting ego-maniac.

    Now it’s even written into the policies and proceedures that the leaders of LIFEscam can take your business away from you for a variety of reasons.

    An extremely small percentage of people will ever make it to RT, and many of those who do will probably end up having those businesses taken from them and have nothing to show for all those years they missed out on watching their kids grow up and all the years they alienated themselves from all their friends while they were part of the team/life cult.

  335. Melanie Morgan permalink
    August 2, 2013 8:33 am


    Your comments are sadly, the rule not the exception. Shunning those who aren’t in & who no longer are spending their hard earned $ from their JOBS, is standard.

    BTW Corp JOBS ARE what fund the entire unviable & unstable “business model.” but they ‘believe’ and instill in their followers, if you “aren’t for them, you are against them.”

    Which is in direct conflict to real “leadership” and especially “Christianity.” This is fact and evident in all who leave, forced out, or no no longer participate!

    The “Shunning” is what divides family, friends, co- workers, spouses, churches, politics, all relationships. The “leadership” creates these constant messages., they “burn bridges”… not too bright in a “people business” they claim to be gurus in “friendships” claim they are they have integrity, are honest christians who follow principles to “better” oneself or America??!

    They create & are the problem, that they claim to fix! Insanity!

  336. Melanie Morgan permalink
    August 2, 2013 9:22 am

    Out in Pa-

    You are welcome and thank you for the kind words but I really deserve no credit.

    The reason I volunteer some time to try and help others is because I am so sorry. Sorry to my family, friends and crossline. Sorry for the multiple thousands thousands on our team and lord knows how mant thousands that quit and lost money, sorry this I know must have put on other families. All those we one our team and to all those who we may have kept in “the team”.

    We didn’t know then what we know now, we had to find out the shocking truth unfortunately, too many years of waisted time, money, relationships later.

    But here’s the lesson, that I apply now and I was taught and showed through the example, at a very young age by my amazing parents and family; When tragedy hits or you hurt someone, you do what you can to right your wrong and the majic in healing is help others unconditionaly, without expecting anything in return and you help yourself and others heal too….a form of Redemption. ❤

    I don't want others to suffer and be decieved unecessarily, especially because I know the sacrifice and regret that brings, all those blinded want to believe they are helping their loved ones and friends and they are believing by giving it all up temporarily they will make up for it later, lie straight from hell, you can not get back time, so masses will give it all up all to be broken and for naught. I want others to learn from our mistake. We trusted the untrustworthy and "believed" lies, therefore, hurt others in that process and that…I am sincerely sorry for.

  337. fastfruit2oo9 permalink
    August 5, 2013 3:44 pm

    fyi to ‘Start Somethin’ and others thinking this is an opportunity:

    CAUTION anyone with a spouse or children (infant or even adult)… you will loose TIME WITH THEM. The lost TIME will NEVER be made up – it is GONE.
    If it is success you seek in an MLM, start your own, or be in the top 3 to 6 leaders and you will make profit. (Profit is the remaining dollars after all business costs of Tuesday night tickets/ Monthly Saturday tickets / 3 times a year weekends, and all of the repeated CDs of the same talks and books the talks are about are paid for, along with the gasoline and vehicle maintainance and hotel rooms and “world class” business center are paid for conveiniently automated as you have NO TIME FOR YOUR BILLs as you should be out selling the business.
    Also – remember – a big goal sold in the “natural sleep” of waking up when you want when it is light out because you had to stay out well into the AM hours trying to ‘sell’ your great opportunity.
    The ‘word of mouth’ is the ONLY way to sell because the PRODUCT does NOT SELL ITSELF.

  338. fastfruit2oo9 permalink
    August 5, 2013 3:49 pm

    Take it easy!
    I approached some of my closest friends – as I wanted to have them be greatly successful, but I could go no further as I has zero success. I wrote comments down after talking with a few, and one friend has had every approach come his way for over 20 years – but he and his wife were willing to listen because they trusted me and I was told you can ONLY make money…. As I studied his comments I wrote at the time about 9 months later after “STP”, he – who is still a trusted best friend had a comment of my “STP” of “I do not see anything different from all the others I have seen”.
    So – go back to your family and or friends and let them know of your new direction in life and that you will certainly build up their trust!

  339. fastfruit2oo9 permalink
    August 5, 2013 3:52 pm

    Also, when I became more internet focused to help build the business, I ran into a Glossary on line of terms used by the A / Q* / Av’tr folk THAT I KNEW WHAT EVERY TERM WAS FROM 3 MONTHS OF ATTENDING THE Team events… amazing – even the term “cross lining” which I am sure the “Top 6” NEVER do while they are all on stage with their spouses that I am sure NEVER talk to anyone else on another ‘team’.

  340. Ryan permalink
    August 9, 2013 1:55 pm

    Too funny!!!! I have been in the business only three years and have not had a job in over one year. I have bettered my marriage and finances through the information given to me from LIFE.. My friends and family have also bettered their lives. There are always critics. It’s a shame that when something is right people will always have a negative comment because it a change of their normal pathetic lives. If you only knew what you were missing!!! Good luck being poor and divorced or single!!

  341. Jordan permalink
    August 11, 2013 9:14 am

    Hey Ryan. It is too funny. People like you are why I quit life. You all say how great it is and all the money that you make. How you are closer to your wife. That’s all crap. Plus if you are true to life then you should be the better person and not come on here and call other people pathetic. Plus to claim that we will end up poor and divorced, who do you think you are? I love what I do and I love having time with my wife and kids. Greed is all you stand for and putting people done because they can see through all your bs. Good luck with your job, because that’s what life is, a full time job. Save some of your money for when life changes to something else and you loose all your down lines.

  342. Ryan permalink
    August 11, 2013 10:03 am

    Maybe pathetic is too strong of a word. But, I think it’s funny that you bash something you know absolutely nothing about. If you did try it, I’m sure you only gave it a week and quit bc you weren’t a millionaire yet. I’m sorry, but we don’t promise easy. I have been job optional for a year. If you want to call helping people better their lives while I better mine, being home with my family everyday and taveling a lot a job, then yes, we all have jobs. I am glad you enjoy what you do, we need good people like that in the world, but don’t come on here knocking my “job” bc you didn’t give it a chance. If it were a scam, we wouldn’t be having meetings a few times a year where thousands of people show up. Thousands of people who’s lives have been changed trough this business. It’s not greed, it’s freedom. It’s having my time back. It’s being able to sleep in and do what I want when I want with my family. It’s having money knowing that in case of an emergency, I do not have to worry about a thing. It’s not having any debt and paying cash for everything. If that’s greed, I’ll take it everyday!!!! You don’t know what you don’t know.

  343. Jordan permalink
    August 11, 2013 10:19 am

    First of all I never said scam, those were your words. It’s funny how you go right to that word, you must hear it a lot when you tell random people how great life is. Maybe your not one of the pushy ones but the people around here are very pushy and they just want you to join without knowing the first thing about it. If you really wanted to help people why wouldn’t you tell them how everything works first before taking their hard earned money. I quit because I didn’t like how two faced some of the people are that tell every one how great it is. When I joined I was like how sweet, I get to help myself, help others, and make money. No I’m not a millionaire, and I didn’t get rich off of life but that’s not what I was really looking for anyways. I just know that I feel 100% better about myself now that I’ve quit life. Like you all say, it’s not a good fit for every one, I just wish life members didn’t make people feel like shit just because they didn’t join in.

  344. switch permalink
    August 11, 2013 1:27 pm

    Ryan says…
    “Too funny!!!! I have been in the business only three years and have not had a job in over one year.”

    LIFE launched Nov. of 2011….so that would mean you were passing the joker juice (a different business) a year prior if “you’ve been in the business, only three years”.

    Here…I’ll help, Ryan…


    The action of deceiving someone.
    A thing that deceives.
    deceit – fraud – delusion – cheat – trick – trickery

    Did the LIFE education teach you something else? They must have.

  345. Nunya permalink
    August 11, 2013 3:30 pm

    This bullshit is ruining my granddaughters life. Her mom has been chasing this waste of time dream for a year now. She has 3 kids and works pt so she can devote her time to this. It’s disgusting.

  346. TruthSeeker permalink
    August 11, 2013 5:20 pm

    Gonna have to call a big “BULLSHIT” on ya Ryan!

  347. Former Round Table permalink
    August 11, 2013 5:57 pm

    Ryan, Ryan, Ryan, you poor delusional soul. I was “job” free for more than seven years, thanks to your “wonderful” business. That meant that I got to sleep in on weekdays because I worked evenings and weekends attending opens, seminars, leadership meetings, house meetings, and whatever else Orrin could concoct to keep us engaged in his cult.

    I am now back in the real world of regular jobs, and I have more free time than I ever had with that crappy scam. I spend evenings and weekends with REAL friends and family, the people who don’t abandon or disparage you for having a different opinion. I take REAL vacations where I can actually relax, and I no longer look at every human being I encounter as a prospect. I have NO debt for real, I have savings, and I have more love and respect now for my spouse than ever before.

    My prayer for you Ryan, is that your eyes be opened before you either completely sell your soul or you become another ruin in Orrin’s scrap heap of former associates.

  348. noteam permalink
    August 11, 2013 6:00 pm

    Thanks for verifying what a scam and what a bunch of hypocrites everyone in life is. Life launched in Nov 2011, yet you’ve been in for 3 years???? Is that what you call integrity??? Does everyone seeing the plan realize that all the leaders are lying???? That the overwhelming majority of them have actually built their ‘teams’ of people in other businesses 10, 15 and some over 20 years ago.

    And you are wrong about us being someone who never seriously tried the business. Many of us were ‘job optional’ and some of the largest leaders and speakers on Teamscam.

    Trust me, we know more about what really goes on behind the scenes than you will ever know.

    Just ask Raquel Peters, John & Melanie Morgan, Ron Day, Don & Chris Freeze, Mike & Christie Raatz how solid this business is and how much ‘residual’ income you really have, NOT. These were all mega leaders in Orrins group who now have nothing to show for all the years they missed with their kids.

  349. fastfruit2oo9 permalink
    August 12, 2013 10:01 am

    concur ‘noteam’…
    Near my end, I saw a new comer arrive – a former runner within the A/Q*/A-core MLMs. This savy couple came in under a Bronze, and I personally saw the Bronze fuming and melting from the top rows of a ‘seminar’ as the newbies gracefully crossed the stage as new SILVERs! So much for wanting those on your team to do great. Politically this must have screamed the Bronze was not going to gough-ld anytime too soon…. BUT
    my calculations have determined the simplicity of taking a TD (top dog) with 6 USs (under studies), and all you do is keep shuffling the deck and the big 6 keep nice solid numbers and info flowin… EZ MATH 2ME!

  350. August 12, 2013 10:15 am


    Oh my word…you used so many TEAM catch phrases in your Aug.11th rant that I feel like I’ve just come from an Open Meeting (only I didn’t have to pay to listen to your talk :-)! There is truly nothing new on TEAM – they’re still using the same, tired talks to “motivate” people that they did ten years ago when I joined. Oh, and FYI…we worked the business hard for eight years, so we gave it a little more than a week.

    As for paying cash for everything and having no debt – I heard that same line of bull from Mark and Anna Huber, Joe and Laura Darkangelo and Chuck and Nancy Cullen. After reviewing their financial statements that are part of their bankruptcy filings, I have irrefutable proof that they were LYING the entire time. If you’re debt free, which I doubt, enjoy it while it lasts because it’s only temporary…like I said, there’s nothing new on TEAM.

  351. Melanie Morgan permalink
    August 12, 2013 9:35 pm


    Honesty is the first chapter in the book ~ Thomas Jefferson.

    Perhaps you could start there first….then move on and read, LIFE’s Policies & Procedures (because I’m certain you haven’t yet), then read the rest of the site and learn “what you dont know”….had you done those things first, you could have spared yourself from your own foolishness.

    Here’s what I see….you attended a “seminar” this past weekend and got drunk on too much tonic… or the liquid courage ( kool-aid = indoctrination + too many shots) of “criticisms” against the “critics” ,then you decided you were going to go “to battle” (show your loyality) came only on that liquid courage, LOL….but you aren’t prepaired for the experienced soliders here and will run and hide like the rest of your drunken comrades! 🙂

    Don’t worry Ryan, you’ll (wake up) sober up sooner or later, (when you can be honest with yourself) and eventually realize, it was all just a really bad hangover. Then you will search out us for your support here on Amthrax , to rid your hangover.

    You will realize you were in drunken stooper and in desperate need of this program (the truth) to cure your hangover because your so-called friends that keep serving you the koolaid will be to busy drinking and won’t have time for you!

  352. Freedomhaha permalink
    August 13, 2013 5:51 am

    Ryan- What percentage of your downline is making a profit?

  353. Melanie Morgan permalink
    August 13, 2013 2:28 pm


    Sorry to hear that! Hope she wakes up soon when she finds herself in deep debt, and frustrated, realizes she has wasted time away from her 3 children, that she will live to regret!

    Ryan, what would you have to say to Nunya about yet ANOTHER family being under duress from your so called “business” that “helps people?!”

  354. Cody permalink
    August 26, 2013 5:27 am

    I feel I have to respond to this article. You have quite a few things wrong here. First off they always tell you it’s not guaranteed and that it’s not a something for nothing. Also they clearly tell you what it is you will be “selling”. It’s books, cd’s, and association (meetings). Another thing I see a lot is that they hound people. They don’t. Yes if they leave certain materials with you they have to set up a time to get it back but if you say you aren’t intrested then they leave it at that. As for the whole pyramid scheme they also clearly describe how this is not. They don’t change the subject they show you how a pyramid scheme works then show you how this works. They tell you it’s not guaranteed that you actually have to put some effort into it. The only reason I can see anyone having a problem with this is they tried it and were just lazy and expected to get paid doing nothing. But when the cash never came then they decide that it was a scam. You people honestly don’t expect to get something for nothing do you? And put it this way, if you joined in the first place then obviously you believed it. So if it was a scam then it is your fault for believing it because you could have just as easily said no.

  355. Cody permalink
    August 26, 2013 8:10 am

    another thing is this, the better business bureau has given it an A- rating, it would be higher due to fact that it started in 2011, so as for the whole its been around for longer than that and the whole its a scam, the BBB does not authorize a scam company as a business, sorry to break your bubble….. boom… mindblown

  356. noteam permalink
    August 26, 2013 10:02 am

    Cody, I feel sorry for you in that you have fallen for all the deception. This group did not start in 2011. They started in the early 1990’s and some of them started even earlier. Read through this whole site. Read about all the mega leaders who dealt directly with Orrin that found our the truth and left because of ethics. What happened to Pastor Dickie, Orrin’s former pastor? What happened to former Team Executive Bob Dickie? Why is Bill Lewis delinquent on his taxes? Why did Bill Newton recently declare bankruptcy?

  357. noteam permalink
    August 26, 2013 10:27 am

    Cody –

    How did the Darkangelo’s rack up over $200,000 of consumer debt? Is that the ‘fruit on the tree’ they speak of?
    How do you explain the Huber bankruptcy?
    Is it ‘integrity’ for George Guzzardo to do his famous ‘strategic default’ on his property?
    Why were Orrin & Chris discredited from the famous ‘Guru’ list?

  358. Cody permalink
    August 26, 2013 11:43 am

    You all seem to keep missing the point. The better business bureau has clearly stated that the LIFE business started officially in 2011. It had no bad reviews. All I can think is that the majority of people on this site have either heard about It from family members and thought it was bad. Or have joined at some point expecting to get rich quick by doing nothing. But the fact of the matter is, it’s a job. You can’t sit around just expecting something to happen. You have to do something. Being in the military makes me cautious by nature, I can recognize when something is wrong in an instant and when I was presented this plan i was wary because it sounded to good to be true. But I went to a couple opens and loved it. The only thing in my way is money. I don’t make much in the military ad I’m national guard, I’m 20 years old been in for two years and already am surpassing my active duty counterparts, so I know my stuff, I’ve seen how this can help people, I’ve seen a couple listen to one marriage cd after being separated and get back together the same day. A couple that I knew personally and introduced to this business because I thought they could use it. I’ve seen the results and if there is one thing I know is that you can’t argue with results. The leaders may not be the greatest but I don’t know that for sure. But something is working, don’t ruin that for everyone else.

  359. Joecool permalink
    August 26, 2013 1:49 pm

    A good rating with the BBB doesn’t mean the business opportunity itself is a good one.

  360. switch permalink
    August 26, 2013 4:03 pm

    Cody, right off the bat says-
    “You all seem to keep missing the point.”

    There were perfectly respectable questions asked….why didn’t you answer them?…..

  361. Cody permalink
    August 26, 2013 6:45 pm

    Because I refuse to address questions that have no bearing within the subject matter. Those questions are completely irrelevant to my discussion

  362. Melanie Morgan permalink
    August 26, 2013 7:46 pm


    You stated as a “fact”: “But the fact of the matter is, it’s a job.”

    Where do we find the source to this fact, or what CD, brochure, contract, materials from LIFE , does it state “it’s a job?”

  363. Cody permalink
    August 26, 2013 8:01 pm

    The last time I checked if you are working in a business you have a job. As for the whole just because the Bbb gives a good review statement does Not mean the business is good, the Bbb won’t authorize that business to operate if they don’t have a good rating, if they do they are operating illegally, because the Bbb will shut that operation down. So therefore the bbb sees the LIFE business as a good company. And they acknowledge that the company started in 2011. So that is my proof that it has not been around longer, so if you can come up with better proof then an actual official source that they have been around longer then by all means please show me. I mean I can post the link to the page if need be. I mean who in there right mind expects to be handed money without earning it unless you are extremely retarded. But I suppose that some people do think that way…

  364. switch permalink
    August 26, 2013 8:37 pm

    Totally irrelevant? What part is irrelevant?….

    If someone came upon you and asked you about the history of team, what exactly would you say?….”Those questions are completely irrelevant to my discussion”???

    You’re doing EXACTLY what the rest of them do and that’s beat around the bush about the truth.

  365. switch permalink
    August 26, 2013 8:56 pm

    Here’s a question, Cody….say I were to sign the papers to become a member of Life under you and your team….what’s the starting wage a Lifer starts out at when he or she signs the papers right off the bat?

    “it’s a job”, right?

    I suppose that’s totally irrelevant to your discussion right Cody?

  366. switch permalink
    August 26, 2013 9:09 pm

    Cody says-
    “Another thing I see a lot is that they hound people. They don’t….”

    Really? Please explain to me in great detail what happened over my own dining room table, please.

    You said, they don’t hound people, correct?…

  367. switch permalink
    August 26, 2013 10:03 pm

    Cody says-
    “The better business bureau has clearly stated that the LIFE business started officially in 2011.”

    That’s correct buddy! When I did my research I came across this piece of info and for the new person, they should be well aware of this.

    From Wikipedia-
    “Pyramid scheme allegations
    In spring of 2008, Larsen formed a business partnership with former Amway distributor (Quixtar in the US) Orrin Woodward, founder of an Amway distributor sales network company known as TEAM. Woodward subsequently became a distributor and speaker for MonaVie, mixing his TEAM organization structure and distributor sales tools (e.g. sales brochures, audio/video recordings, etc.) concept with MonaVie’s compensation plan. In 2008, Forbes magazine reporters Emily Lambert and Klaus Kneale noted:
    “TEAM is one step ahead of all these juice selling schemes. It is a pyramid atop a pyramid. It is selling motivational aids to help MonaVie vendors move the juice. But wait. If you can’t earn back the $258 you’ve spent on the motivational lectures by selling $39 juice bottles, you could earn it back in another way—getting people to buy $258 motivational lectures. If you’re good, you flog the lectures to other people, who sell them to yet others. Everybody gets rich. Everybody, that is, except the last round of buyers. That’s the theory, anyway. The reality is that a mere 1% of Team members make any money from involvement with the firm.”[11]
    Regarding pyramid scheme issues, Lambert and Kneale elaborated:
    ”In a 1979 regulatory action involving [Amway], the Federal Trade Commission attempted to draw lines between legitimate and fraudulent pyramids. The ones that are legit focus on getting revenue from consumer goods sold to retail customers. The FTC did not, however, define ‘retail’ in that case. That leaves plenty of wiggle room for guys like Orrin Woodward; he counts the vast majority of people in his pyramid, who seemingly try but fail to make money, as retail customers.”[11]”

    More questions for Cody-
    So, in reality, those “books, cd’s, and association (meetings)” you speak of are sounding VERY familiar, Cody….wouldn’t you say? Unless the info here is somehow false?

    When Life started in November of 2011, how exactly did the members of the PC earn their way to the top?…Can you honestly say, it was the Life system that worked for them?

  368. Former Round Table permalink
    August 27, 2013 6:13 am

    Cody, I think you are confused about the Better Business Bureau. They do NOT have the ability to shut anything down; they are merely an official “registrar” of complaints. Before the internet, people had no way to check to see if customers were happy or dissatisfied with a company’s performance and so would look to the BBB. Also, a company used to be able to purchase a good rating by donating to the BBB, so I do not pay much attention to their ratings.

    As for LIFE, it is a new name for an old business. Orrin Woodward and crew have been peddling their crap since the late 1990s, my friend. Many of us on this site were once close personal friends–we know these guys better than you ever will.

    You are probably a nice person. Do yourself a favor, and ask yourself why those of us who were once very close to the Woodwards, Bradys, Lewis’s, and Guzzardos; those of us who were once earning a solid six figures from this “business” would leave if it was so great? Why would we give that up? Because that is exactly what we did. We did it because the leaders of your “business” model are corrupt to the core, they are rotten in their bones, and we refused to sell our souls for mere cash.

  369. Cody permalink
    August 27, 2013 7:33 am

    All I can say is this, I have seen good results with this. I’ve seen hard working couples get the life they deserve. I have no clue exactly what made you people turn against the business because I wasn’t there. But at the same time I don’t even know if you were ever even in the business because I don’t know you. But I won’t argue with results. I’ve seen the good. No I’m not in the business, I’m comfortable where I’m at believe it or not. Granted I don’t make much but I believe in fighting tooth and nail for my money, I’m in college and engaged to the most beautiful woman in the world. As soon as I get my degree I will be working along actors like Selena Gomez, Ariana grande, and many others. The business was not right for me but I still keep in touch with these people because I see a good cause. You can sit here and bash down everything about this business but in the end it comes down to what people truly believe. And if they are wrong then let’s hope they are strong enough to admit it, I know I am.

  370. noteam permalink
    August 27, 2013 8:02 am

    Cody – How can you possibly think you can sound credible discussing something you are not even a part of when you are discussing it with some of the biggest leaders ever in this organization. That is absurd.

  371. August 27, 2013 10:26 am


    Team LIFE officially started in 2011…true. Team Mona Vie started a couple of years before that. Before that it was Amway/Quixtar, Team of Destiny, just TEAM…did I miss any?? Anyway, you get the idea. Why do Orrin and Chris feel the need to reinvent their business every few years? They’ll tell you it’s plan-do-check-adjust, but really they’re running from bad Internet press that has caught up with them. As a side bonus, it forces the followers to throw out all of their obsolete CDs, DVDs and literature and replace it with all new stuff (the proceeds of which go into Orrin and Chris’s pockets, by the way) – it’s a sweet deal for them!

    The onion looks good on the outside, but if you peel the layers, you’ll find that it’s rotten on the inside. Orrin, Chris, Tim and the other “leaders” are evil, evil people. You know not what you speak of.

  372. switch permalink
    August 27, 2013 4:20 pm

    Cody also said-
    “I’ve seen how this can help people, I’ve seen a couple listen to one marriage cd after being separated and get back together the same day. A couple that I knew personally and introduced to this business because I thought they could use it.”

    Ya hear that gang….ONE marriage cd and the couple is back together…it’s that easy!

    If these are the so called “RESULTS” you speak of, you’re LYING through your teeth, Cody. A separation needs A LOT more attention/help than some ludicrous cd regurgitated from the Life clowns.

  373. Memory Lame permalink
    August 29, 2013 7:58 pm

    Cody, hang out with the members of Team Life some more and watch what happens. I know couples that started out “healing” their marriage to only later watch those same marriages destroyed by the so called “leadership” in this system.

    These hard working couples did not get some great reward from this system. If they are hard working, I assure you that they do not deserve what they’re about to get from LIFE.

    You talk about this whole business being wonderful, but you won’t put your own money into those fabulous cd’s. It seems to me a good friend would put up or shut up. Either put your own time, blood, sweat, and tears into this great business to help your friends and see it for yourself, or be willing to actually understand what kind of trouble your friends are in for by heeding the stories of people here who had real experiences. Maybe you can be ready to help them one day when they’re in dire financial trouble – which they WILL be if they stay in.

  374. jackie permalink
    August 29, 2013 8:31 pm

    Thank you for all of these posts to read. My husband and I have been recently approached to sign up for life, and I almost talked him into doing it as it sounded safe. So thanks to all of you for saving us from making a bad decision!!!

  375. noteam permalink
    August 31, 2013 10:05 pm

    Cody – you stated that the business started in 2011. However, when I go to the BBB website for Eastern Michigan, it shows the business started on 3/1/99 and the BBB file was opened on August 27, 2003. How could this be if the business didn’t start until 2011?

    Can we say “Busted”!!!!

  376. Freedomhaha permalink
    September 1, 2013 6:26 am

    Jackie- Thank you for sharing that. It helps to know we are still saving lives with this site.

  377. SkinnyBuffalo permalink
    October 13, 2013 7:58 pm

    Sadly, my best friend and her husband have gotten involved in LIFE not too long ago. I’m thrilled for them that they say they are happy with it, presenting “the Plan” every night of the week and flying all over the country on credit cards to support their “community”. I even went to a hotel meeting in support of them. I found a bunch of fake people who have all drank the Kool-Aid and my friends surprisingly led to me someone and put me on the spot by saying to me “tell them why you don’t like MLM’s and they will answer any questions.” I don’t have any questions. I don’t get involved in MLM’s. I’m not trying to offend anyone, or crush anyone’s dreams, but I become offended when I am accused of basically not being intelligent enough to understand what a great opportunity I am passing up. I’m not a millionaire, but I’m happy with what I have going on and my real friends! I have a background in mental health and I read self-help books for fun. I’m ok with my level of self-actualization. So, now I’m selfish because I refuse to overlay my philosophy on someone else’s life, and I’m what’s wrong with society? I have managed to be “busy”, but my friends are getting more determined, even after I have clearly stated I have no interest in joining. So now they have approached my boyfriend, who has already gone to the hotel meeting with me before, but the husband wants to present “the plan”. I need a plan to put a stop to this once and for all, I’m afraid.

  378. October 14, 2013 8:59 am

    Educate yourself on the history and background of TEAM and its organizers. This will provide you with a list of questions that you can pose to them in the future. Check out the links on the right-hand side of this blog (and the top-navigation). Good luck, and let us know how it turns out with your boyfriend and friend.

  379. Former Round Table permalink
    October 14, 2013 4:43 pm

    Shame on your friends for being so pushy! But that is all part of the training.

    This is what I suggest: Tell them that You value their friendship very much, but you are not ever going to join their business, and you hope they value your friendship enough to let it go. You don’t have questions, and you don’t need more information. Period.

    You have to be direct and firm.

  380. October 15, 2013 10:11 am


    Former Round Table is spot on. Unless you give them a definite “no” (which it sounds to me like you have, but some people can’t take a hint), they will continue to see you as fair game. The TEAM system trains them to view everything except a firm “no” as a “maybe”.

    A word of warning: you may be able to deter them this time by making it perfectly clear that you are not interested in any way, shape or form, but they may still come back to you at a later date. The next time the business changes (i.e. they align themselves with a different product, they change their name, they modify the plan), your friends will be encouraged to re-contact people who have already said no. After all, this is a new business (sort of) and life circumstances change, so people who once weren’t interested might change their minds, right? Wrong!

    TEAM LIFE has been around for a couple of years in its current form, so they are due for a change very, very soon. I would say within the next year or two the TEAM will modify something. They’ll claim it’s all in the name of continuous improvement, but really they just want to obsolete all of the current tools (CDs, DVDs, brochures) and make the minions buy all new ones. Also, bad publicity catches up with them, so a name change is necessary every few years in attempt to foil the search engines.

  381. November 5, 2013 8:56 am

    What is the first year income of the immediate mentors”? The person who recruited you? First year income is it 10,000 or 20,000 ? What?

  382. November 5, 2013 10:48 am

    It depends on the rank of the person, not how long they have been in. Please read the LIFE IDS Analysis on this site for more information.

  383. Melanie Morgan permalink
    November 5, 2013 8:37 pm


    Income the first year 10-20 grand? Is that what someone has told you?

  384. SpaceHamster permalink
    November 8, 2013 5:44 am

    Even Life netted me $20k a year I doubt I could stand keeping up the rate of recruitment required. I find it much more enjoyable actually building my own business, one I can mold to my liking and have control over. That’s something you can’t do with the so called “LIFE business”. It’s their way or the highway.

  385. Melanie Morgan permalink
    November 8, 2013 11:53 am

    10-20k the first year would be more than a far cry from anyone EVER “netting” their First year.

    That would be more accurately your personal “exspenses” for some ONE “all in”; the ONLY way they lead you to believe you will be a “success” , according to their definition and then take that times the number of people in your downline LOSING.

    Love to see a lifer prove even 1 person who has ever netted even a profit of a 10-20 bucks, their first year, legitimately, in other words done from scratch with no freebie teams, people, or any other “special deals! Never seen it, ever.

    So if they are making these “income claims” they better be willing to back it up, otherwise…They are misrepresenting, misleading and blowing smoke…which is their M.O.

  386. Melanie Morgan permalink
    November 8, 2013 1:04 pm

    They want you to believe they are a “training and sales business” (the people pay to get “in business” to make a PROFIT) real sales people sell to REAL “customer” not their downline (who got and are “trained to recruit” more downline. If they were real customers they wouldn’t become a member!

    Real sales company measure and track their customer sales, interesting the M.L.M industry is ALL aboutl “numbers” but don’t need to provide the data because apparently they have their lobbiers who have managed to exempt them from providing the “transparency” (they claim they are)…would be to hard for them?! It is so obvious!

    But wait they teach PDCA and to analyze and set goals for your-THEIR- business!” IT IS about “numbers!” ShouldThey want to be viewed as just like any other business” but don’t want the same rules and regulations!?sd the sales person makes “a profit” the first sale! Legitimate sales companies don’t need lobbyists to keep the definition of a “customer” blurred of what a real custome

    They know the sored reality of no one but the TOP 1 or 2% ever make a the lifestyle and income claims they lead people to believe they will make.

  387. ricky permalink
    December 19, 2013 10:49 pm

    Hi guys… I joined the TEAM last month… My friend had joined previously, He made me an offer I couldn’t refuse… The only thing was that I stick with it 3-4 months.. I’m more than willing to share with you people here a few things. First how much money I made, 2 how much work I put into it/ how much money I put into it and also how many people are underneath me and how many legs I have… Here’s the thing.. I’m not in it to better myself with the self help cds etc. I’m in it to make money, whether Orrin or Chris are legitimate or not I do not care. I am in it for the cash. I will be updating soon.

  388. switch permalink
    December 20, 2013 7:57 pm

    “in it for the cash”…..LOL! So in other words, Ricky, you could give a shit about the people below you on your team.

    They will LOOOOOOVE you!

  389. Melanie Morgan permalink
    December 20, 2013 8:46 pm


    You sound very excited…”He made me an offer I couldn’t refuse… The only thing was that I stick with it 3-4 months..”

    Please share…exactly what was the offer you couldn’t refuse?

  390. December 21, 2013 8:28 am

    If Ricky isn’t trolling us and truly being sincere in his intentions and motives, we can at least credit him for being honest.

  391. debora roach permalink
    January 23, 2014 1:44 pm

    whinners that can’t make it in the MLM world, the folks that will be left behind when corporate america goes to hell in a hand basket. The same corporate america that starts keeping your retirement, because it’s legal for them to do so.

  392. TruthSeeker permalink
    January 23, 2014 9:15 pm

    Debora Roach Berryman nice of you to weigh in here. The odds of having some time of a retirement in ‘corporate’ America are about 100 times greater than earning any type of money at all with MLM.

    I would think a 58 year old woman would know better than to join an information based pyramid scheme. Shame, shame, shame…does Steve share the same sentiments as you?

  393. Former Round Table permalink
    January 24, 2014 6:46 am

    Debora Roach,

    I hate to burst your bubble sweetie, but you have just destroyed your future with Life/Team/Whatever they call themselves. Please go back and re-read the Life Policies and Procedures contract that you signed when you joined that bunch. It clearly states that your business can be taken for any or no reason, and one of the specifically enumerated reasons is if you comment on any anti-Life blog or website.

    What that means my dear, is that if you are ever manipulative enough to succeed in building a large organization within Life/Team (not very likely but a few people have actually done that over the past 18 years), that group can be taken away and you will have no recourse.

    As for us whinners (sp) who can’t make it in the MLM world, you should probably get your facts straight before you make such comments.

  394. Former Round Table permalink
    January 24, 2014 7:10 am

    To all you Life/Team/Orrin Woodward defenders, I have a couple of questions for you:

    1. Have you ever really thought about why we are so critical of Orrin and his “business?” Seriously, if it were so great, we would still be involved. It can’t be that we just couldn’t cut it, because according to the “system,” ANYONE can build a successful business, right?

    Many of us critics DID have large businesses at one time. If we lost our businesses, for whatever reason, why didn’t we just hunker down and rebuild?

    2. Do you ever think about the 2-5 year plan and then look around and see the same people on stage week after week, month after month, year after year, and wonder why more people aren’t at the top? Come on folks, after 5, 10, 15 years you have to ask yourself, what gives? Could it be that maybe it’s a bunch of crock, that maybe the business system isn’t all that great, that MAYBE IT’S NOT YOU????

  395. January 24, 2014 9:54 am

    We have been out of the business for several years, but our Upline’s Upline (I’ll call him Mac) is still in. Mac was a Round Table member and retired from Corporate America while The TEAM was still affiliated with Quixtar/Amway. I would say that makes Mac successful in the MLM industry. Mac is still involved with the LIFE business, so he’s no quitter, but he has now returned to Corporate America and the dreaded J.O.B.

    Tell me, Debora, why would Mac go back to “carrying buckets” if TEAM LIFE was so successful? You and I both know the answer to that…the only people making money in TEAM LIFE are the 8 or so people at the top of the pyramid. If a former Round Table is no longer making enough money in LIFE to stay in retirement, what makes you think you can?

  396. Ohiofarmboy permalink
    February 19, 2014 3:49 pm

    I have been in LIFE for a year now. I make $500 to $800 a month with little work and I enjoy the Leadership building and Life building books and CD’s. What I will say to anyone reading this blog is, don’t count on LIFE to be your retirement income or your way to get rich. If you like self help type stuff and you enjoy reading and socializing then you can make a little bit of money. Seems to me like most of the people on here were told that they could retire on LIFE. I think it is like any large business or entity. There are bad apples. The people I work with and learn with care more about making ourselves better than about making money. Yes, at the large conventions they will tell you how all these people are making 6 figures and blah blah blah. I guess I could care less about making 6 figures, I am good with $400 to $600 profit a month ( that is taking out $20/hr for my time and gas money). I no a few people who make really good money but they do put in a crazy amount of time and effort. I do wish they would stop trying to sell the get rich quick stuff and you will be set for life stuff and lean on the content more. Luckily the people I work with in my lines lean on content and not making it big. Take this for what you will, I’m sure there are bad experiences and people who think it is a scam, I say anything is only worth the value you put on it.

  397. noteam permalink
    February 20, 2014 7:55 am

    OhioFarmBoy – Interesting how the recruiting methods always used are about how much money you can make and emphasizing the lifestyle of Orrin, Tim & Chris. Yet once people point out all the thousands of people who are losing thousands of dollars a year – the emphasis immediately becomes “It’s not about making money, it’s about the ‘quality’ material for self-improvement”.

    If someone is truly interested in self-improvement, I recommend using Ebay or Amazon and doing searches for self-help material which cost a fraction of what TEAM/LIFE charges. And more importantly, you can buy the specific topics you are interested in without spending $300-500 every single month. And half of each CD and book will not be simply telling you to buy more CDs and books.

    Also, you will not miss out on all the quality time with your family as so many thousands of people in TEAM/LIFE realized.

    I encourage anyone looking into TEAM/LIFE to research this site thoroughly. Do not be fooled. These scammers are masters of deception. Save yourself tens of thousands of dollars and memories with your kids by getting your self-help material from people with integrity instead of the TEAM/LIFE scammers.

  398. freedomhaha permalink
    February 20, 2014 9:40 am

    OhioFarmBoy- What percentage of your downline is making a profit?

  399. noteam permalink
    February 20, 2014 4:11 pm

    Anyone besides me find it odd that OhioFarmBoy claims he is making $500-800 a month with little work after one year? After having one of the largest organizations in my area and for a time one of the fastest growing organizations in the country, I can honestly say I never had a single person in our entire downline earn a net income of $500-800 a month after expenses. Not a single person. And some of them were out there 5 and 6 nights a week, spending thousands of dollars a year, totally committed, never missed a function. And not one single person earned a net $500 a month after expenses. Not one. I’d love to see an audit of OhioFarmBoy 🙂

  400. freedomhaha permalink
    February 20, 2014 7:09 pm

    Noteam- He is going to answer my question. I have a good feeling he is the one! 😉

  401. noteam permalink
    February 24, 2014 5:17 am

    Does anyone know what happened to Orrin’s oldest son Jordan? A couple of years ago I saw a clip of Orrin stating that Jordan was considering Team/Life instead of going to college.

    It’s been a couple years now. Wouldn’t you think that if LIFE was so great and you had “the best ‘guru’ in the world” helping you. And Orrin could place Jordan in his fastest growing tap root so really all Jordan would have to do is build a 2nd leg. And this ‘systenm’ is so great. Shouldn’t Jordan be a PC by now????? Surely an RT????? Team 100????

    This is not to pick on Orrin’s son. But to point out the hypocrisy of what they say. If this system is so good and with the #1 guy helping, you would think you would see posts all over about how Jordan is growing so fast.

    And if Jordan is not growing fast, and possibly not growing at all, how can they sleep at night thinking of all those young college age kids getting scammed by this system all across the county? How can they possibly hope to make it if Orrin’s own son can’t?

  402. freedomhaha permalink
    February 24, 2014 6:29 am

    Noteam- They have the precedent of fudging the numbers as well. One would expect that same type of results again here, but we aren’t seeing any.

  403. February 24, 2014 8:02 am

    A recent post on Orrin’s blog says his son working at the LIFE Leadership office:

  404. Ohiofarmboy permalink
    February 24, 2014 8:07 am

    Not really sure why you would spend thousands of dollars, the only expenses I have are gas and two to three hours a week. Sounds to me like you guys had a bad team leader. There are two ways (in my opinion) to look at LIFE. One is the way we do, you actually build a community of leaders and quit worrying about making money. The “plan” is presented as a learning opportunity and way to help people develop a business mind. In return for a subscription you get CD’s and books picked out for you. It’s like any other service, someone does the work and you pay for it. Yes, you can go on ebay and try to find stuff, it would cost you about 20-30 bucks a month, so the service of having everything picked out and sent to you costs 20 to 30 bucks a month. As far as not making any money… I really don’t know how you don’t make at least 100 to 200 a month after a year. I went in with about 30 people when I first started so I got a boost, but still…I talk to 2 people a week and I get 1 to 2 people a week signed up. I find small business owners who want to offer their employees a leadership course or small business owner who want some help in leadership and business development. About 80% of my team is making something, the other 20% just do it to be a part of a community…the biggest earner is 4 to 5k but he does it as a full time job.

  405. freedomhaha permalink
    February 24, 2014 10:29 am

    Ohiofarmboy- What percentage of your downline TEAM is making a profit. Note: A profit is much different than “something”.

  406. Melanie Morgan permalink
    February 25, 2014 2:28 pm


    You say: “Not really sure why you would spend thousands of dollars, the only expenses I have are gas and two to three hours a week. Sounds to me like you guys had a bad team leader.”

    How long you been in? Did you attend the major this past weekend? What was your total “expenses” from that?

    You are either one naïve Ohiofarmboy lifer and or a dishonest one. My upline was Guzzardo’s & Woodwards….”bad team leaders?” I do agree with you though, Ha!..Now what?

    You say: “There are two ways (in my opinion) to look at LIFE. One is the way we do, you actually build a community of leaders and quit worrying about making money.”

    Good fir your “opinion” (imo) your ‘way’ is just another dishonest way to CYA and theirs and get all the other poor suckers too never EXPECT to make a profit, right. Isn’t that why you ‘choose’ that “opinion?” Be honest 🙂 I don’t doubt that is what is being said but don’t believe for a second that is what they mean… why?… because )you may or may not know) but the TOP has to revert to playing on words and to convince the masses to have that very “opinion” too because they KNOW the odds! Check the IDS and their history. Have you sincerely checked & asked yourself; Why you need to believe that or why that is a constant in their rhetoric & ‘teachings’ now?

    They know the odds are slim to none for the “90% Crud” ( Sturgeon’s Law-That Orrin loves to refer to…meaning 90% of EVERYTHING, that would include the 90% of the people on the team too, right? It doesn’t change just because you say it pertains to everything but “not the people”. It is either a law of “everything” or it isn’t.

    I bet not a one of the “followers” are smart enough to pick up on that disturbing reference that Orrin refers to. How about the “10% do all the work and 90% think they are a part of it?” Do the 90% get it?..Nope, but then they don’t get a lot of what really is going on.

    You know farmboy, the “90% of crud” that supply the TOP, without the “crud”, no money, no lifestyle, right? You may be convinced it’s “not about the MONEY” but the Top have a very different view. That is exactly where they want you and everyone else to be.

    We were the 10%, farmboy. So gonna be real with you, it will be impossible for us to fall for any BS.

    Please Let me ask another question, honestly why did you come here?

    You stated there are 2 ways to look at LIEF, your way and the other way IS?…”Business Opportunity”, Right? But you know better to say that, you and the 90% are conditioned…The very thing they hate about the media & traditional education. As this computed at all with you. You praise it that they “pick the information for you!!!!!” Dude, think about that. They want to “control” what you think and believe! They want and have control of a whole lot more than your information! Wake up.

    You say: “The “plan” is presented as a learning opportunity and way to help people develop a business mind.”

    Bahaha good one…Where does the money-making/Compensated Community, play into it and how is that “presented?” Do they talk about income, lifestyle claims, residual income (oh bet that is never mentioned anymore, right? ) Do you hear over and over don’t say that word!?

    And those “income claims” you are stating you make up, month after month? Can you back that with the “data.” and your full name, like the FTC requires? If not we will have to assume you are not telling the truth. Certainly if you are honest and the business is as you say, and you are “profiting” that month after month and your “expenses” are as low as you must be claiming on your taxes, right? So then shouldn’t be a problem, right? Or have you read the P&P and that is why you are anonymous? 😀

    One last question and the most interesting and I am sincerely am counting on you being honest; you state:

    ” I went in with about 30 people when I first started so I got a boost, but still…I talk to 2 people a week and I get 1 to 2 people a week signed up.”

    Please do share, how you “came in with 30 people” and where from did you recruit these 30. And so why are you “recruiting” people still? Don’t forget you need to provide the data, money, expenses etc.

    Oh and just a positive note might want to read the FTC, SEC requirements. 😀

  407. Melanie Morgan permalink
    February 25, 2014 2:36 pm

    Requirements that the FTC & SEC state that if your main focus is “recruiting” (which we know it is, farmboy)… quite likely it would be a illegal pyramid scheme. Didn’t try and Orrin sue Quixtar for that, farmboy?

  408. noteam permalink
    February 28, 2014 6:09 pm

    OhioFarmBoy – sorry, but something sounds very fishy here. How can you possibly claim you don’t have many expenses? In order to be considered a leader, you must purchase at least a set or two of each of the following:
    Top 50 set
    Power Player Pack
    Additional Info Pack
    LLR Pack
    Culture Pack
    Relationship Pack
    Building Depth Pack
    Contacting & Inviting Pack
    Showing the Plan Pack
    Follow-Up Pack
    12 monthly seminars for both husband & wife (at around $30 a month per ticket)
    3 Majors a year at around $125 per ticket
    Usually at least 2-3 sets of each of the above
    12 additional CD’s & 2 books each month
    Additional orders of your favorite CD’s which you are expected to leave with prospects
    TEAM/LIFE logo wear
    Open Meetings for husband & wife
    Gas for at least 15 plans per month plus follow-ups for each one, plus seminars & opens
    Hotel & travel expenses for 3 out of town majors a year

    Add it up buddy – we’re talking at least $5-10,000 a year if you are on full system. How can you possibly say you don’t have many expenses?

    Either you are extremely naïve or you are being very dishonest. Unfortunately, many of us on this site were some of the biggest leaders of TEAM/LIFEscam and know the depth of this dishonesty in the TEAM/LIFEscam leadership culture.

  409. noteam permalink
    February 28, 2014 6:15 pm

    OhioFarmBoy – Also, we had hundreds in our personal group and to my knowledge, literally not a single one (besides myself) , had a net profit of $100 a year after expenses. That’s not a typo – no one person earned over $100 after expenses a year. NOT ONE!!!!! And we’re talking a bunch of totally ‘sold out’, committed leaders who wasted thousands and thousands of dollars and hundreds and hundreds of hours away from their kids.

  410. TruthSeeker permalink
    March 1, 2014 4:34 am

    @OhioFarmBoy, gonna have to call bullshit on your “About 80% of my team is making something” comment.

    Since the first payout on the comp plan is 5%, or $7.50 for 100 points, even if 80% of your team was doing 150 points each they wouldn’t be “making” something, they would be getting a $7.50 check. That would mean at best, they are LOSING $142.50 per month.

    If they were all on a basic package of $50 they would have to have 2 people under them in order to reach the first pay level, therefore only one of them or 33.3% of them would be getting the $7.50 check. The other two wouldn’t get jack.

    Why come on here and lie you freaking idiot? Can’t you do math?

    Less than 3% can even earn a measly $50 a month, you can’t bullshit people who know the truth. Go away.

  411. freedomhaha permalink
    March 2, 2014 1:00 pm

    TruthSeeker- When the dream is big enough the facts…. 😉

  412. Melanie Morgan permalink
    March 2, 2014 1:26 pm


    Great post, and thanks for the laughs! 😉

  413. TruthSeeker permalink
    March 3, 2014 6:54 pm

    Better correct my typo before OhioFarmBoy comes back and tries to show me his brilliance.

    I wrote, “Since the first payout on the comp plan is 5%, or $7.50 for 100 points” that is incorrect, what I meant to write was this, “since the first payout on the comp plan is 5% or $7.50 for 150 points”.

    Everything else is spot on, and OhioFarmBoy is still full of shit.

  414. frustrated permalink
    March 4, 2014 10:28 am

    The part that bothers me about the PV plan (at least the last time I read one) was that you earned more points for signing people up than you would for selling individual materials. That was my first “Red Flag” because I have always heard a pyramid scheme will reward you more for adding people to the downline than you will make actually selling products.

    Even though a subscription doesn’t make you a “leader, IBO, etc.” (whatever they are saying these days), they require you have a subscription to be on a team.

    I would guess that you would see most of your subscription sales going to your downline than non-associated individuals.

  415. Rascal Teamster permalink
    March 5, 2014 11:30 am

    Yes, I am still alive.

    Truthseeker, you kill me. 80% of ohiofarmboy’s team is making money? That’s not even mathematically possible. I’d love to see Ohiofarmboy’s Tax returns.

    LIFE is not a business opportunity. It is a very expensive leadership club being billed as a business.

    I was in for 5.5 years and never made a profit….profit meaning money in my bank acct after all expenses are paid. I don’t mean, “I bought a $50 subscription, and I received a $100 check from LIFE.” That would be Gross Profit. Net Profit is what you have after spending $250 a month in gas. Looks like you are $200 in the hole.

    Well, that was my story…..except all my numbers were much larger and uglier than the ones I just typed.

    All talk of scamming aside…..for those who don’t know, Jackie Lewis’s life is hanging on by a thread. She’s in the hospital in very serious condition.

    Just got this emailed to me earlier. Those poor kids.

  416. Rascal Teamster permalink
    March 5, 2014 11:42 am

    No sooner did I post that, and they updated her blog that she passed away.

    What a shame

  417. No Longer a Lifer permalink
    March 5, 2014 12:32 pm

    Even though we all hate the life business. I think we can all agree that the tragic news of Jackie Lewis passing away is tragic. We should all take a moment to say a pray for Bill Lewis and his family

  418. exblah permalink
    March 5, 2014 3:02 pm

    i know someone still in team life who says there are reitired and bought a house but they dont actually own it !! lol and is on unemployment gov assistance till it runs out eating food from a food bank …. the husband works … they have no ,money make no money and have become very rude people who should have at leat read the books they bought !!! lmao

  419. March 5, 2014 3:30 pm

    @exblah – Do you have proof of this? Are they high up on the TEAM/LIFE organization charts?

  420. Rascal Teamster permalink
    March 5, 2014 4:16 pm


    Retiring from Team is a funny thing. I can’t recall anyone who “retired” from Team. You don’t retire from Team. If you can handle living the MLM lie and are big enough to be making money, you stay in and make it.

    Retired is the word that Team upline’s use to describe anyone who left Team to their downline. Upon further examination, the people who “retired” had their teams stripped of them and given to whomever would benefit the most. They have zero income. There are many cases of this in this blog.

    Team does not pay quitters. LIFE is a life sentence.

    I suspect that we are talking about people who never had enough income coming out of Team to actually be retired in the first place. I’m figuring they either quit due to not making money, or left and had their Team stolen out from under them.

    I want names!!!

  421. freedomhaha permalink
    March 6, 2014 6:48 am

    Absolutely praying for Bill and his family. Bill and Jackie were my favorite couple to hear speak in TEAM.

  422. Dianna permalink
    March 16, 2014 7:50 pm

    HELP!!!!!! My mother is about to get sucked into the life scam!!!!!! How do I break it to her gently to stay away from it! She’s already been sucked into Amway, noni juice, Primerica and SMC. I’m old enough to tell her this time that it’s not going to work. Last time was smc. Took all her money. Before that it was Amway. Although with Amway, she cashed in my sister’s and my life insurance policies to pay for a trip to Cleveland Ohio. I’m so tired of watching her hopes and dreams dashed when these scams dont work out for her… Someone please help me with how I can break it to her gently? I don’t want to be all in her face like “It’s an effing scam!!!!! Stop effing doing this to yourself!!!!!” Work for your money. There is no get rich quick scene that actually works for someone, except for the person at the very top! I’m not saying start one yourself, but geez! What do I say????

  423. March 16, 2014 9:12 pm

    @Dianna: I’m sorry to hear about your mother. You should ask her why she thinks it will be different with this “opportunity” over the other ones that she’s lost money in before. It’s important to note that the principals behind TEAM/LIFE used to be in Amway (before they were terminated/quit). You should have her carefully read the LIFE Income Disclosure Statement (and read our independent analysis of the IDS on this site). The odds of her getting rich off of this are very low. She should also know exactly how much she is expected to pay each month to run her business. It might be in the hundreds of dollars. Multiply by 12 months, and she’ll be looking at thousands of dollars of years in meeting fees, conference tickets, tools, gas, hotel, and other expenses. Good luck, and let us know how it goes between you and her.

  424. freedomhaha permalink
    March 17, 2014 4:44 pm

    Dianna- You have come to right spot for help. The senior contributors to Amthrax are much more experienced than myself, and would love to help you through your situation. A lot of people are in your families shoes and will read this and will see the similarities in their own lives. When you share your story here you will help your mother as well as hundreds of people like her that will read this blog.

  425. Melanie Morgan permalink
    March 18, 2014 9:03 am


    I can understand your anxiety and how you must feel and wish there was a quick easy answer. Sounds like your mom has bought into the lie that MLM is the only way to achieve success, hence why she MLM jumps, thinking that there must be 1 that will work! Once that belief (Lie) is ingrained, it is hard to get them to understand that it wasn’t her failure, it is by design stacked against her! They are very enticing! The best thing you can do is educated yourself as Amthrax suggested, so you can refute logically against the mind numbing garbage.

    All the founders in LIFE came from Amway/Quixtar, that is where the “system” they peddle today came from. They rebranded it once again with a new Name (to hide their past) but it is basically the same as it has always been, Same concept just tweaked it, still CD’s, books, seminars, and meetings except that is their sole “product” they peddle now. and claim they have created and revolutionizing the industry with their 4 trends that have been around for decades.

    They have whitewashed a lot of their history with Amway, but this site, Lazyman, pyramid scheme alert, and so many others have come along to help educate others on the reality and information, especially the information they don’t want you to know.

    How sad and disturbing to me that your mom cashed in you and your sisters life insurance all for naught! Unfortunately, that isn’t an isolated case, so many have cashed in 401 K’s, racked up massive credit card debt just to keep up with the expenses, etc, because they have no where else to draw from to finance the expenses for most it becomes nothing more than false hope and a pipe dream and end up losing it all!! Think about it only 7 or 8 PC at the top that tout the lifestyle everyone can have, and most of those have been the same 7 or 8 started in Amway 2 decades ago or back in early 90’s!

    I wish you well, be gentle but firm. Ask her what makes her believe she will “make it in life” and then maybe you could show her the analysis of the Life comp plan and ask her to show you the Policies & procedures that show she doesn’t “own” her business that she is being lead to believe she is a business owner, but in those Policies it states they can take her business anytime for any reason!! READ them threw thoroughly and if all possible take to an attorney and explain they say you “own your own business” is that so?!

    What makes her believe this is any different than all the other MLM’ and how easy does she think this is going to “sell to customers” when you can go to library for FREE or amazon, ebay, etc and get he same books for a fraction of the cost!?

    I wish I could help you more!

  426. Melanie Morgan permalink
    March 18, 2014 9:32 am


    Another thing that might help, I would follow up on and read where the FTC and SEC has launched an investigation into Herbalife. I am sure your mom understands MLM and may be of interest. You can find a post and links on the right sidebar of this page, under recent posts or many others if you google it.

  427. roadrunner permalink
    July 20, 2014 9:45 am

    I just went for a meeting about this program yesterday, and it sounded wonderful…almost too good to be true. I have one friend that says he’s making close to $1800 a month, on top of his “real” job. After reading this and all the comments, I’m really not sure about it. Sounds too good to be true, but I was always told never to judge something before trying it. I appreciate the comments, positive and negative (mostly negative). I have absolutely nothing to lose, so I’m going to try it and tell y’all if u r right or wrong, based on my personal experience. 🙂 -_-

  428. July 21, 2014 7:38 am

    @roadrunner – be sure to keep track of your income and expenses the entire time you are a part of LIFE, including business tools, seminar tickets, mileage, meals, and hotel costs (if you go to any of the out-of-town events). Report back here after three and six months. If you can, keep track of the expenses and income of your downline too. Tell us how your retailing efforts are and the efforts of your downline (and their income and expenses).

  429. Vogel permalink
    July 21, 2014 3:05 pm

    Roadrunner said: “but I was always told never to judge something before trying it.”

    That might sound quaint on a coffee mug but it’s a bad motto for real life. Thanks to collective knowledge, there are thousands of things that you never have to try before judging — eating cyanide, jumping out of an airplane without a parachute, Russian roulette, etc. I would include joining any business associated with Woodward on that list.

  430. Mike Collins permalink
    July 21, 2014 3:15 pm

    To be honest Vogel, he sounds like another shill in a long list of such. If he’s not though you have to admire his business prowess with which he evaluates an opportunity. Seriously though, I cringe when I hear certain peoples’ logic.
    Roadrunner, you better first confirm your buddy is making that kind of money. If he is ask to meet other people in his downline who are making at least 25% of that.

  431. Vogel permalink
    July 21, 2014 4:41 pm

    I agree with you Mike. the shill M.O. goes something like:

    “Despite those 99 great reasons to not join LIEf, I’m going to do it anyway…just…because.”

    It’s a weak way to try to lure the lemmings to jump. The illogical premise behind it should always be exposed just as a routine matter.

  432. I QUIT (and glad I did) permalink
    July 22, 2014 6:23 am

    I was always told its a bad idea to shoot heroin. I believed that to be the truth until I tried it! Now I shoot heroin three times every day and its the best thing I’ve ever done to improve my life!!
    Hey Roadrunner, how much sense does your logic make now?

  433. Gretchen Johnson permalink
    September 7, 2014 8:57 am

    Just attended the September LIFE Live Seminar featuring Orrin and Laurie Woodward. As usual, I loved it!

  434. September 7, 2014 1:17 pm

    @Gretchen – what made the seminar so good? Can you compare it with previous seminars you’ve attended with them? What was different about them?

  435. noteam permalink
    September 7, 2014 4:37 pm

    Gretchen – What city did you attend? What was the ticket price? How many people were in attendance? Did they have a tool sale area? What were the highest levels of new recognition and how many people at each of those levels?

  436. September 7, 2014 5:18 pm

    Gretchen, did you get close enough to Orrin to notice the “666” on his forehead?

  437. freedomhaha permalink
    September 9, 2014 4:40 am

    Gretchen- Was this your first monthly seminar?

  438. Holmes permalink
    June 23, 2015 5:50 am

    I went to a presentation at Claude Hamilton’s house recentley for this LIFE Leadership “business”. I have to say, the person that brought me to the meeting made the business sound full of oppurtunity and had me intrigued, though it sounded like a pyramid scheme right off the bat. But I was assured it wasn’t and I was interested enough to go to the meeting. Now this Claude guy is definitely rich. The first thing that came to mind is if someone owns a business that is successful why would they want to bring more people into it that would simply be competition to them? Nonetheless I sat there waiting for this presentation in his beautiful home, and I actually felt a little self-concious because I dressed casual and didn’t wear a business suit as most others had. What I expected was an overview of the business, with perhaps charts, financial information and statements, how much the business was making, who the buisness owners were and how they started the business, maybe some future projections of where the company was headed or at least how the hell it worked and what the hell it was that they were selling. Did Claude talk about any of that at all? No most definitely not. Instead I sat through an hour of what I could best describe as some sort of motivational speech with a crap ton of promises and no real substance to how though promises could ever be kept or made, other than of course to pay $230 a month to be a part of it. The next thing that got me was how you would “own your own business”. For me I suppose that takes a different meaning, because for me unless you are paying yourself and your employees you do not own your business. It is actual quite laughable for them to talk about owning your own business or how your actual job is a pyramid when at least you boss at work isn’t getting loaded rich from your own hard earned money. The other thing that made me chuckle was how Claude said not to quit your job at first, because then how would you pay for subscription fee of course right?

    Sadly I left the meeting almost as excited as everyone else, but luckily for me all that excitement quickly faded. I got home and realized how much bullshit he was spewing from his mouth and then I started to get angry and how rich he is and how great he has it preying on other peoples hopes and dreams. See LIFE leadership isn’t even really selling a product whatsoever. They are selling hopes and dreams to people that will never get fulfilled, and it pains me to see so many hardworking people giving thier hard earned dollars to these parasites such as Claude and Lana Hamilton, Chris Brady and Orrin Woodward. I did some minor research later that night, and haven’t really stopped since, and that’s when I came across this website and am some glad I did. All I really had to do though was search Orrin Woodward’s name in google and my suspicions of the LIFE leadership scam were confirmed. It is almost unfathomable to me that people are actually being fooled with this stuff. But I’m a skeptic by nature that likes to ask a lot of questions, and I tend not to trust people whatsoever until I have good reason to. I can see how people could trust Claude Hamilton though, he seems like a very good person at first. He is charismatic, cheerful, and I could see how he could easily gain someones trust. But the first question I asked myself when I pulled up to his house was: “how did he become so rich?”, and all you have to do is ask yourself that question and think long and hard. All successful business people have had to step all over other people, stab people in the back and at times at least be dishonest and untruthful to get where they are at. That is unfortunately just how business works.

  439. June 23, 2015 5:58 pm

    Excellent comment and recap of the meeting you attended, Holmes. I may break this out into its own separate post, if you don’t mind.


  1. TEAM LIFE Plan Overview and Questions To Ask « AMTHRAX
  2. A Recap of a LIFE Leadership Opportunity Meeting in Canada | AMTHRAX

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