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The Many Companies of Orrin Woodward, Chris Brady, and Tim Marks

November 23, 2011

Reader 1MillionLIfES posted a comment about the many companies that have been registered by Orrin Woodward, Chris Brady1 and Tim Marks, Policy Council members on TEAM. The reader conducted the search in the states of Nevada and Florida, and it presumably only the tip of the iceberg. Some readers have mentioned up to 200 businesses in total.

Here’s the list from Nevada and Florida.

… I looked at two states only and found 49 companies. Some are active some aren’t.

Nevada Business Search:
Florida Business Search:

DPST = Director, President, Secretary, and Treasurer

First thought is, dang, that’s a lot of companies! Then, a rush of questions come to mind:

  1. Why in the world have they created soooo many companies?
  2. What are they accomplishing by doing this?
  3. What could they be hiding with this approach?
  4. Which of the same-named companies are still active? The LLCs or the Corporations?

1 A few of the companies were registered in the names of Terri Brady and Amy Marks, spouses of Chris Brady and Tim Marks.

82 Comments leave one →
  1. Brent Hansen permalink
    November 23, 2011 5:58 pm

    Amazing how so many companies could be operating from or receive mail at one address. This must be ONE HUGE OFFICE COMPLEX, OR ONE HUGE MAILBOX. Gotta love Nevada huh? No state tax, $35 LLC, $99 Corporation, and a great place to move money, or reduce risk. What happens in Vegas, is now on Amthrax!

    Now wouldn’t those dollars serve a better purpose in the hands of the people at the bottom of the pyramid? I know, I know, they deserve it, they paid their dues, they are teaching people how to be successful, they are top selling leadership gurus.

    2250 E TROPICANA # 19-103

    Las Vegas Nevada

    Anyone from Vegas??? Its probably a mailboxes etc.

  2. switch permalink
    November 23, 2011 7:05 pm

    you gotta be kidding me……

  3. Used to be "all-in" permalink
    November 24, 2011 5:49 am

    Great find people! Maybe 200 companies?? Wow!!

    I did a search and found a few more:

    Laurie Woodward: Kaylin Corp. – Florida
    Orrin Woodward: Living Intentionally for Excellence, LLC – Delaware
    Orrin Woodward: New Horizon Association LLC – Michigan
    Orrin Woodward: Woodward International Networking Systems, Inc. – Michigan (Assumed names: Team Team, WIN Systems, Inc.)

    Chris Brady: Brady Machine Enterprises – Michigan
    Chris Brady: Galleon Properties, LLC – Michigan
    Terri Brady: IKLEKTIK, Inc. – Nevada

  4. Used to be "all-in" permalink
    November 24, 2011 5:56 am

    webelieved: The interesting thing about your find is that those companies in the Hubers’ names are no where to be found in their bankruptcy filings. The only companies listed in their filings are Huber Enterprises, LTD and Starfish Acquisitions, LLC.

    Hmmm….I wonder why they needed these companies based out of Nevada then?

  5. das permalink
    November 24, 2011 7:47 am

    Here are some that I found just by searching the address: 2250 E TROPICANA 19-103 Las Vegas Nevada.

    Some of these leaders have left Team, and those are the ones I believe had real integrity, character, and honesty. Why do they have so many companies? I suspect it has something to do with loopholes for not paying income tax. Here’s a list so far without duplicates.

    COMMON SENSE SERVICES, INC. President, Secretary, Treasurer, and Director: Robert Dickie Iii

    INTERNAL CREST SYSTEMS, INC. President, Secretary, Treasurer, and Director: Robert Dickie Iii

    WAVE MOVEMENT SERVICES, INC. President, Secretary, Treasurer, and Director: Robert Dickie Iii

    GREEN RIVER GROUP, INC. President, Secretary, Treasurer, and Director: Robert Dickie Iii

    PEAK ENDORSEMENT SYSTEMS, INC. President, Secretary, Treasurer, and Director: Robert Dickie Iii

    MOUNTAIN BLUE JAY, INC. President, Secretary, Treasurer, and Director: Robert Dickie Iii

    GREEN GEMINI ENTERPRISES, INC. President, Secretary, Treasurer, and Director: Kevin Thompson

    IONIA RESOURCES, INC. President, Secretary, Treasurer, and Director: Doug Huber

    ZETA CONCEPTS, INC. President, Secretary, Treasurer, and Director: Mark Huber

    XI ELEMENTS, INC. President, Secretary, Treasurer, and Director: Anna Huber

    APOLLO WORKS HOLDINGS, INC. President, Secretary, Treasurer, and Director: Rob Hallstrand

    RIVER BEND DEVELOPMENTS, INC. President, Secretary, Treasurer, and Director: Rob Hallstrand

    CREST MOUNTAIN SERVICES, INC. President, Secretary, Treasurer, and Director: Rob Hallstrand

    NEWPORT WORLD ENTERPRISES, INC. President, Secretary, Treasurer, and Director: Rob Hallstrand

    CONSTANCE, INC. President, Secretary, Treasurer, and Director: Rob Hallstrand

    CENTRAL POINT AID, INC. President, Secretary, Treasurer, and Director: Rob Hallstrand

    INTEGRATED GARDEN HOLDINGS, INC. President, Secretary, Treasurer, and Director: Rob Hallstrand

    VERTEX PINNACLE EXPERTISE, INC. President, Secretary, Treasurer, and Director: Rob Hallstrand

    CRETE HOLDINGS, INC. President, Secretary, Treasurer, and Director: Rob Hallstrand

    GAMMA OPERATIONS, INC. President, Secretary, Treasurer, and Director: Rob Hallstrand

    SKILLED RESULTS, INC. President, Secretary, Treasurer, and Director: John Morgan

    RESOURCE SUPPORT HOLDINGS, INC. President, Secretary, Treasurer, and Director: John Morgan

    BLACK BEAR POINT, INC. President, Secretary, Treasurer, and Director: Melanie Morgan

    VORTEX OCEAN NETWORK, INC. President, Secretary, Treasurer, and Director: Don Freeze

    MEMORY GROUP SOLUTIONS, INC. President, Secretary, Treasurer, and Director: Don Freeze

    NORTH STAR SOLUTIONS, INC. President, Secretary, Treasurer, and Director: Chris Freeze

    MINORCA, INC. President, Secretary, Treasurer, and Director: Rick Reed

  6. switch permalink
    November 24, 2011 7:52 am

    Woodward on 11/23 said:
    “Call me a dreamer, an idealist, a nut, or even a scam, but I will not cease doing what I know is right! A man with the facts is never at the mercy of a man with an opinion. I know first-hand what happened in Laurie and my life. To not offer the same opportunity to others would be selfish and wrong.”

    really orrin? please explain to us where the facts and opinions are here and who has which?

    “To not offer the same opportunity to others would be selfish and wrong.”

    I’m not even sure what to say to that…..except for the FACT that this is entirely YOUR OPINION!

    And who’s at the mercy again? Like webelieved said, it just keeps getting better and better every day.

  7. das permalink
    November 24, 2011 7:56 am

    Webelieved, Happy Thanksgiving to you too my friend, and to all of you here seeking and posting the truth.

  8. Speak Your Truth permalink
    November 24, 2011 8:38 am


    I wanted to send you a special Thanksgiving Blessing. I am not sure you understand the depth in which you have played in providing a huge blessing for me personally and am sure it is safe to say for all on here to share our experiences, to get the truth and facts out to help others. Many Blessing for you…for the rest of your life. Thank You.

    To all of you who have touched my life in a profound way with your wisdom, gifts, knowledge, and humor…May your lives be abundantly blessed for the rest of your lives.
    Happy Thanksgiving.

    I am grateful and thankful for all of you!

  9. Vogel permalink
    November 24, 2011 9:36 am

    Now you’ve gone and made me misty-eyed ya big lug. Pass the cranberry sauce before I get too choked up.

    Seriously though, I couldn’t agree more. I’m thankful to all of you and to our extraordinary host.

    Happy Thanksgiving everyone.

  10. Brent Hansen permalink
    November 24, 2011 9:40 am

    There is NOTHING illegal about having multiple corporations. Corporate tax avoidance is standard practice in the U.S.. Two thirds of corporations pay no federal income tax. Even GM who received a $13.4 billion dollar bailout has multiple entities they utilize as tax havens. Here is a great source about the tax avoidance of many of America’s largest companies.

    Click to access Tax-Shell-Game.pdf

    Isn’t it beautiful how big corporate money has influenced our legislators enough to pass laws to protect the very people who are extracting wealth from the masses? Product based pyramid schemes are the worst of the worst because they play upon everyone’s personal emotions that have been given to them from God. Everyone has a basic desire to serve others, be free, provide for our families, and reach our true potential. Those basic emotions are the very things that snake oil salesmen exploit in order to extract money. They are truly wolves cloaked as sheep.

    Not only is Life and many other companies putting 95% plus into money losing situations, but they are also paying no taxes on the money they have extracted. The burden always has and will continue to lie on the misinformed or gullible.

    That is why the message needs to continue to resonate and touch as many lives as possible. Happy Thanksgiving everyone!

  11. Brent Hansen permalink
    November 24, 2011 9:41 am

    Two hundred though seems a bit excessive doesn’t it? Exactly how much money is flowing through this pyramid? Wow!

  12. Dorothy permalink
    November 24, 2011 10:17 am

    This commenter requested that her comments be removed from this site.

  13. Dorothy permalink
    November 24, 2011 10:34 am

    This commenter requested that her comments be removed from this site.

  14. Speak Your Truth permalink
    November 24, 2011 3:28 pm


    We know that in 2007 there was **42 million** flowing from 60,000.. mostly middle class, according to the Forbes Article.

  15. No Team For Me permalink
    November 24, 2011 7:02 pm

    This is just a theory and my own personal opinion and not acussing Orrin Woodward, TEAM or anyone else of doing anything fraudelant. However….

    I have heard of people who set up multiple LLC’s in Nevada mainly for asset protection. Hypothetically, suppose someone is being sued by a large billion dollar corporation. I’m not saying Orrin Woodward being sued by Amway. I’m just saying any random person who might be sued by a billion dollar company.

    If that person can set up numerous LLC’s in Nevada, it will be extremely hard for anyone to track all the assets. Nevada’s laws regarding LLC’s are very much slanted to protect the identity of the true owners of the assets and the amounts of such assets. Robert Kiyosaki and many others have written numerous books on the subject.

    If someone gets sued, and they have enough LLC’s set up. Money can be transferred from one LLC to another and on and on and on. then back to the original LLC’s with a different string of transactions until it’s almost impossible to trace the money of the party loses. They then declare bankruptcy while the money is in one of these LLC’s. Then after the bankruptcy, mysteriously, the money shows up and they are back to the same lifestyle. Don’t know of anyone who declared bankruptcy recently do you???? 🙂

  16. No Team For Me permalink
    November 24, 2011 7:05 pm

    Also, many of us were hinted at to set up LLC’s during the changeover from Quixtar to MonaVie to avoid being brought up in the Quixtar lawsuit for violating the 6 month inactivity and the 2 yr non-solicitation clauses.

  17. Speak Your Truth permalink
    November 25, 2011 8:47 am


    So what you are saying is; that this would be a legal way to evade taxes? Really? Where is the Ethics? Someone posted on here some comments Orrin stated people can attack his reputation but can’t ‘touch’ his character. Orrin’s reputation has stained his character. We are all responsible whether our own character is honorable or otherwise ; but it certainly gets ‘revealed’ by your actions. With the explanations given here for the ‘uses’ of so many LLC’s to shift money, evade taxes..etc, then, how does this not create a moral dilema for those who believe they are Chrisitan..Godly..Men of Character and claiming they are doing the right thing. Does anyone else see this? It is all about the money. You cannot serve 2 Masters.

    It may not be illegal, but in my opinion it is certainly unethical. Just because that is ‘what everybody does’ two third of business (the status quo)…does not make it right.

  18. November 25, 2011 9:00 am

    You guys should ask the IRS, what they think of this.,,id=106778,00.html

    Maybe it is just a legal way to pay less tax (tax avoidance), but it does not hurt to ask I assume. At least maybe they can clarify why “the big MLM-leader” is doing this, and will it in another way show the true colors of the leader of this MLM-cult.

  19. Steve (Peachy) permalink
    November 25, 2011 9:32 am


    I could not agree with you more. I found out from my upline that it was always about what was legal in their eyes, and from those conversations summized it’s not what was morally or ethically correct. Do you remember the book of the month “There is no Ethics in Business”? I believe they took the title verbatum, and didn’t read the contents of the book.

  20. Brent Hansen permalink
    November 25, 2011 10:58 am

    Speak, tax avoidance and tax evasion are two complete different topics. In no way am I suggesting, or implicating that their were any tax evasion issues here period.

    My take on this is simply the fact that there is way more money flowing to the top positions than the compensation plan shows. I have several close friends who earn in excess of one million dollars per year who are more than glad to pay taxes.

    If you look at Monavie’s income disclosure statement, it is evident that with mitigating factors in place their maximum success (breaking even on autoship) ratio is reduced from 3.6% to a mere .05% of all distributors. Now that Life actually owns its model and compensation plan, and it is becoming their primary focus, there will be way more money in this than ever before. A 1 in 21 ratio will end up being very similar to the ratio that exists in Monavie. In a stairstep, there is lots of breakage, which this time will flow back to Life, not to Monavie.

    Through tax avoidance you could literally earn several million a year and pay no taxes. Now am I saying that this is what the top leaders are doing? No. I am simply saying that 200 different companies is somewhat excessive, and that I am interested in knowing what methods are being practiced.

    Once again, as shown in multiple examples, the Team/Life model is a massive redistribution of dollars from the masses to the few. And through the beauty of a corporation, there is a possibility that the few are not even paying taxes on the redistributed funds.

    For or against, this is part in parcel of what the ridiculous Occupy Wall Street effort is about.

    The battle we all are fighting extends way beyond the MLM arena, but since I know and understand what is going on here in this arena, this is where I choose to voice my opinion.

    Say what you will about China, but at least China is smart enought to protect it’s citizens from these U.S. thugs.

    The lobby money from the DSA has no reached them yet, but I do believe there is a new international organization started just like the DSA, so who knows what could possibly happen.

    People who are involved should really be asking the right questions. The facts and truth about product based pyramid schemes need to come to light.

  21. Speak Your Truth permalink
    November 25, 2011 11:39 am

    Steve (Peachy)~

    I struggle with those who ‘claim’ they are something they are not. It is very misleading; offers only a mixed message and reveals the real character. There is No such thing as Business Ethics (John Maxwell)…just…Ethics.. Period….their is no seperation.

    I agree with you Orrin and Co… are ‘legalistic’..including the way they express their ‘religious’ doctrine. They remind me of the Pharisees.

    Paying taxes; is each persons responsiblity and the right thing to do, period. So when Orrin tries to convince people that he does the ‘right thing’ and his ‘previous hero’s?’… Don’t… only reveals he is self deceived.

    The Bible states very clearly, that we are all responsible to pay the proper taxes. But gaming every ‘system’ for personal gain…is notorious for their behavior. As long as the wrong is accepted as the ‘norm’ or just the ‘way we do business’… in the minds of those who game the system the wrongs will feel right and will continue to be justified.

  22. Speak Your Truth permalink
    November 25, 2011 12:05 pm


    I am very confident that I understand your stance, you are very articulate and clear and intelligent in communicating that. You would never imply that evasion is being applied here. It is totally me and my interpetation. Thanks for sharing what I know most do not understand; it has a lot to do with that information being skewed, withheld and flat out ignored. 🙂

    My mistake… I realize using the word avoidance..would be a much better word, what was I thinking… 🙂

    Why do you think Orrin is ‘using’ other people, instead of using only him as the sole person in all these LLC?

  23. Brent Hansen permalink
    November 25, 2011 12:10 pm


    Hear hear, I could not agree more. That is why I used my friends as examples. One of them, after paying all quarterly payments, was just notified by his accountant that he owes an additional $28,000 to be current on his taxes for the year.

    He could set up 10 shell companies to run the money through, but chooses instead to pay his taxes. He is grateful to live in a country where he has the ability to earn over a million a year, and feels it is moral responsibility to be honest in all of his dealings.

    If I was getting involved in Life, I would ask my sponsor to account for every dollar that flows into and out of the company. What true business operates without full disclosure to its partners? Customers and partners should have two different levels of knowledge.
    If someone failed to provide this information, then I would never join them. If they provide the information, and I liked what I see, then and only then would I choose to enroll.

    If I was looking at Life I would expect to know and understand why they own all of these companies, and what is the purpose of having them. People really need to wake up, do their research, and make decisions based on the facts. Dexter Yager was full of shit when he said “If the dream is big enough, the facts don’t count.” The truth is the facts count more than anyone realizes.

  24. Speak Your Truth permalink
    November 25, 2011 12:13 pm

    I know I am little slow so… I think the difference would be… is the methods are not transparent and the books haven’t been cracked open…I would always give someone the benefit of the doubt. 🙂

  25. Brent Hansen permalink
    November 25, 2011 12:21 pm

    “I have analyzed the compensation plans of over 400 MLM’s, all of which were found to be recruiting MLM’s, in which participants must aggressively recruit a large downline to profit significantly. Based on more recent data from the companies themselves, the loss rate for recruiting MLM’s is approximately 99.6%; i.e., 99.6% of ALL participants lose money after subtracting all expenses.” Dr. Jon Taylor

  26. Speak Your Truth permalink
    November 25, 2011 12:35 pm

    I am not sure who the anonymous comp play anaylist is but I think it would be interesting to read o lastest blog post challenging those anaylist because it appears as if he is saying the LIEf comp plan is still the best in the industry and implies that the anaylist hasn’t fully done their work. 🙂

  27. Brent Hansen permalink
    November 25, 2011 12:49 pm


    I am not sure who it is either? Where is the comment? I would really like to see it.

  28. Brent Hansen permalink
    November 25, 2011 12:52 pm

    I see, are you referring to 70% being the highest payout in the industry? Hmmmm…percentage is irrelevant, I believe its allocation that matters, what do you think? A company could brag about 100% payout, but if 99% of compensation dollars went to 1% of all distributors, would it really matter?

  29. Brent Hansen permalink
    November 25, 2011 12:54 pm

    Wow, I wonder what the anonymous analyst would say in response to O’s post, since no one in the market place utilizes a break-away model? Interesting.

  30. Vogel permalink
    November 25, 2011 1:04 pm

    Regarding the tax avoidance/evasion issue, I have long maintained that MLMs are defrauding the IRS for massive amounts of revenue. I’ve seen how MLMs seduce new recruits by telling them that they can deduct various expenses such as gas and auto maintenance; computers, rent, meals, and most conspicuously, sales tools.

    In reality, only about 1/100 distributors in most MLMs have a reasonable chance of being cash positive, and given that there is little reason to realistically expect turning a profit, these faux “businesses” are actually, at best, hobby businesses according to the IRS definition, and hobby businesses are not entitled to all of these deductions that are being taken. I suspect that this kind of tax cheating is chronic in MLM.

    I trust that I’m not the only taxpayer who is revolted at the thought of subsidizing Woodwart’s tool scam (mind control propaganda) and offsetting the restaurant tab for a group of distributors who spent a few minutes of their mealtime cooing about the wonders of Monavie.

  31. Speak Your Truth permalink
    November 25, 2011 1:30 pm


    Perplexing isn’t it…especially for me…lol


    Yes we all agree and as little as I know about the subject we always had a certified accountant who always questioned and we followed his advice on what was right. So, needless to say we paid many, many, thousands in.

    The sad part is from our experience no one teaches the critical information about deductions or anything to do with running a real business. The
    ‘avoid’…gotta love that word :)…taking any responsiblity for that training..even thought they ‘claim’ they are a ‘world class training company’ who trains you in ALL areas of your life.

    They constantly ‘sell’ (the tax deduction) as if you have the advantage to deduct EVERYTHING in the business…that everything is a write off.

  32. Speak Your Truth permalink
    November 25, 2011 1:31 pm


    What is a break-away model, again. I told you I was slow. 🙂

  33. Speak Your Truth permalink
    November 25, 2011 1:36 pm


    And the ‘shell’ companies…it is still my ‘opinion’ it is morally and ethically wrong and should create a moral dilema, especially for those who are claim they hold the moral high ground. 🙂

  34. Finally permalink
    November 25, 2011 3:38 pm

    It may or may not be legal, that is left for a professional. But what about the possibility that they opened companies in peoples names without their knowledge??? It will be interesting if an entity like the IRS chooses to look into this………..the 25 million they lost in the Q they screwed up would be nothing compared to the ramifications of illegal activity…….Gee it couldn’t happen to better peeps could it???

  35. Speak Your Truth permalink
    November 25, 2011 4:48 pm

    Right on webelieved….lol.


    That would sure be interesting and could be a possiblity..but judging by their track record of witholding information… not giving all the information… down right lies… just trust me (orrin) he wouldn’t do anything wrong or to hurt others he is a “Christian”..just trust.. without question etc.

    I would think one of those would be more likely the case. I just can’t figure out why he would even need to put them in all those leaders names…what would be the motive and benefit of that…anyone?

  36. Vogel permalink
    November 25, 2011 5:39 pm

    Finally: “It may or may not be legal, that is left for a professional. But what about the possibility that they opened companies in peoples names without their knowledge???”

    I think you might be onto something there. As I recall, people here complained that they never got to see copies of their contracts, and even if they had, they might not have noticed if Orrin had used one of his many shell companies as the signatory. Aside from the possibility of a tax dodge, parceling revenue through a multitude of shell companies could be conveniently used to limit legal liability and protect assets in the event that one or more of the businesses failed or he got sued. There would also be little to prevent him from transferring money from company A to company B (i.e., his pocket) and claiming the transfers as operating expenses, thereby plundering company A’s assets.

    I have to believe that there is a lot of tax cheating going on: improper deductions, cash transactions undeclared, and whatever monkey business OW has going on with his shell collection.

  37. switch permalink
    November 25, 2011 5:50 pm

    Bingo, V. I have to agree.

    No ifs, ands, or buts about it, there’s a reason for the countless number of companies. Plain and simple, whatelse is he hiding for his own personal gain?

    One could only imagine but I think we all know, here.

  38. Speak Your Truth permalink
    November 25, 2011 6:52 pm

    I agree and I am not good a being ‘politically correct’…pretty much just call a spade a spade. So..from my years of experience with this scam…I do have to agree with webelieved and Vogel. These guys have aleast proven over and over that every thing they do is shady if not down right scammy…lol…or even more bolder would be cons. I am way over believing that they do things because they are the right thing. I would have to be so naive to believe such a thing.

  39. Vogel permalink
    November 25, 2011 6:59 pm

    At this point, I accept whatever my intuition tells me is the worst case scenario, knowing, based on experience, that something will inevitably come along and prove that the reality is ten times worse.

    That axiom has served me well so far. The other is that whatever they shout the loudest is usually the biggest lie.

  40. Speak Your Truth permalink
    November 25, 2011 7:25 pm


    Very good rule of thumb thanks for sharing. I should have said I despise the ‘politically correctness’… just be I really think they are running out of rope and the last remnant will be gone. Just a hunch… 🙂

    Again, I know you are very serious but could not help but chuckle at; “that something will inevitably come along and prove that the reality is ten times worse.” true.

  41. Finally permalink
    November 26, 2011 5:31 am

    The greatest trick of the Devil is convincing people he doesn’t exist……..

  42. Brent Hansen permalink
    November 26, 2011 8:22 am

    OK, I have figured it all out now. You all are making money from Google advertisements by blogging on here right? Either that or your ‘negative testimonies could be fake’. HAHAHA!

    I have to disassociate myself with you all of you. All the while I have thought I have been scammed by a networking opportunity I have really been scammed by this site which I thought was credible.

    Ready for a laugh? Mark Haas has it all figured out, pure genius!! Email this video to overcome all of your friends objections, it will be a very effective tool, I guarantee it.

  43. Brent Hansen permalink
    November 26, 2011 8:28 am

    Just a warning, this video may make you throw up in your mouth a little.

  44. November 26, 2011 9:46 am

    @webelieved – I’ll add a link to the LIFE TEAM Primer about the dozens/hundreds of companies registered in their names.

  45. November 26, 2011 9:48 am

    You’ve got to be kidding! Do people really believe this s^(*&t? in the video Mark Haas made to convince people?

    Finally, I do so agree with you “The greatest trick of the Devil is convincing people he doesn’t exist……..”. However, this way of seducing people by using ignorant believers shows how very busy he is out there!!

  46. November 26, 2011 11:02 am

    @webelieved and @brent – good find on the video. I’ve posted a dedicated post about it here. Please move your comments over there:

  47. Mike Collins permalink
    November 26, 2011 1:34 pm

    Dear Orrin,

    Now that we have established that you are, in fact, following and responding to this blog ( a clear violation of YOUR P&P’s ) I wanted to respond to the latest drivel you posted on your blog.

    You said: “If any legitimate analyst would like to compare LIFE’s break-away compensation plan with any of the other break-away business models”

    Orrin, orrin, orrin……….

    Well done…..this is again the classic Red Herring argument.

    Def. Red herring is an idiomatic expression referring to the rhetorical or literary tactic of diverting attention away from an item of significance.

    Do you have any other tactic in your arsenal? Are you even the slightest bit interested in truth? This “challenge” you are throwing out hardly deserves a response but I’ll do it anyway. It is so far off the point it borders on ridiculous. How your antiquated comp plan with a “twist” compares to another even more ridiculous antiquated comp plan is irrelevant. The point of the analysis is to show you and your would be victims that there is a better way to fulfill the “mission” you claim you have. The reality of your comp plan is STILL that a few at the top will profit handsomely at the expense of the ignorant masses that don’t understand this ridiculous (did I use that word too many times yet?) compensation structure that you “created.”

    You said: “I guess, in hindsight, it would be silly for anyone to belabor these non-flattering points of the older business models. For if someone honestly compared the many break-away compensation plans, he would then have to admit that LIFE’s plan rewards customers and members much faster and more lucratively than the older models do.”

    Challenging the analyst to compare your breakaway to an older breakaway is akin to asking the doctor what is worse…..herpes or syphilis? The truth is….they both suck…..just like your comp plan…….. And any other comp plan that has the lion’s share of profits going to less that 1% of the distributors (at the top) see your PC for clarification of “top.”

    You said: “We plan on doing this through applying free enterprise principles in the marketplace, not feeling the need to resort to reputation assassinations of our former associates”

    No….instead, based on what I’ve read on this blog, you steal their downlines……..

    You said: “A person only has so much mental energy. The question is: what is he investing it in – dreams or dramas? The more he fills his head with dramas, the less room he has for dreams. In truth, I have never met a dream achiever who invested much time in drama loving. Conversely, I have never met a drama lover, who invested much time in dream achieving. This is why I have invested my life in dream achievement and quickly identify and disassociate myself from the drama lovers of life. Victors love dreaming for it keeps their mind free from dramas. Victims, on the other hand, love dramatizing for it keeps their mind free from dreams. Whichever group you choose to associate with determines your future destiny.”

    I’m a Dreamer too Orrin. My dream is to help stop people like you from fleecing the very people you claim to want to help by teaching them to think critically then decide for themselves. A vital part of that teaching is to help them understand the numbers…..the math. It DOES NOT LIE!!!

    So in closing, the point is not how your sh#tty comp plan stacks up against another sh#tty comp plan. Or, that Lief is paying out 70%. The point IS and ALWAYS WAS….ALLOCATION of dollars. Feel free to look that word up, you clearly don’t understand it.

    Ponder that……..

  48. Speak Your Truth permalink
    November 26, 2011 2:35 pm


    I have to say that was superb. Very simply stated once again, perhaps this time it will sink in. I noticed he didn’t touch the most obvious point, that you simply shared…ALLOCATION.

    And as far as this video… Thanks so much Mark Haas for demonstrating how desperate you all have become. Perhaps you should just go build your business rather than spend your time being a critic..You can almost get away with anything has long as you put a shroud over the truth. Those unsuspecting souls that you are working so hard at capturing, can even see through this one….just talk them to death, eventually they wear down and fall for the BS…lol.

    It is an excellent video for the cult experts and all others who can watch right before their eyes the smooth talkin, deception working to wear a person down; you can even ‘see’ the moment the snare happens.

    Hope this isn’t your new ‘prospecting’ video…call it a hunch but don’t think your going to ‘get’ too many attorney’s…lol. Way to make them look stupid and how easily others fall for what has become the ‘self-improvement cult.’ LIEf material program.

    Obviously, the example of your attorney fell into the quilt trips, after all it was his

  49. Finally permalink
    November 27, 2011 5:45 pm

    Wow, this is getting to the meat of what the pc is all about, lying to keep their downlines lining their pockets. The principles they preach or correct, the problem is they use them to manipulate and hold their teams hostage to dream that doesn’t exist……there is no gold at the end of the team rainbow for the masses.

    I did want to make one other point here. Many of the the names on that list of former triples have left team and repudiated what they do and have done I have spoken with some on that list and know someone who has talked with other’s that have left and everyone of them have done their best to make amends to those whom they believe they have hurt and if and when asked will speak the truth as they know it about Team based on their own experience. We should be cautious not to lump all of the people with names on that list in with the PC that is still doing business as usual. I know that these guy’s speaking their mind does not sit well with the PC because after a lll they are the only one’s in the entire world that know what is best for anyone. Just ask them and they will tell you.

    I also have had some interesting conversations with some people in industries that might be interested in the legality or illegality of what they have done. If there ever is an investigation it will be interesting to see how that is spun……..I mean they lost a 25 million dollar lawsuit due to arrogance and pride and make themselves look like victims. It is also interesting that another group started a lawsuit agains Q a year after team and they won a 25 million dollar judgment ………..boy I thought Ow and Chris and Tim knew the truth and exposed it…………I guess the other guy that won his lawsuit should thank the Team for financing his victory

  50. Murray Lees permalink
    November 28, 2011 8:08 am

    I would speculate that these guys (Orrin, Chris, et. al.) are compartmentalizing their ‘organizations’ buy dividing up each leg and reporting it as a separate legal entity. Corporations and/or L.L.C.’s (Limited Liability Corporations) are taxed on their net income. By distributing his revenues across various entities he can also distribute his expenses thus lowering his reported net income and with the thousands of tax loopholes the US has, he’s probably paying little to no taxes on what he makes off of LIEF, TEAM, speaking fees, MV, royalties from books sold through their ‘communities’ (fleesing people twice on book sales) and elsewhere, and whatever else they have going on.

  51. I QUIT (and glad I did) permalink
    November 28, 2011 8:26 am

    HOLY CRAP!! I leave for a while and it really hits the fan! What a great surprise to come back to. More FACTS to back up everything we’ve all been saying.
    I just spent the last six days deep in the woods chasing animals with horns. Just me and my son. Never saw another hunter either. Just peace, quiet, howling wolves and not one shred of the guilt I used to feel when I was in the biz! Matter of fact, I never even thought about the biz once. I guess I’m fully recovered! Just great memories for me and my son. Now I come back to this info and its just is icing on the cake!! Way to go guys!! Happy belated Thanksgiving all!

  52. Mike Collins permalink
    November 28, 2011 11:49 am

    @ Murray: I believe you’ve probably hit the nail right on the head. It is probably about expensing out profits.

  53. Finally permalink
    November 28, 2011 5:54 pm

    I agree Murray to the extent that they obviously pay someone to limit their tax exposure, no different than any other person making millions. Where I believe they will have problems is in the way they set up companies. That is all I will say about that……….:-)

    Webelieved, my understanding is that the courts ruled that the Q contract was illegal. My understanding is that if they would have just focused on that point they would have won the lawsuit. A group in Cali did win lawsuit focusing on just that point. OW and company contended that Q was an illegal pyramid, the exact opposite of what they told us for years……Can you believe that one. My understanding is that They also lied under oath. Q accused them of having a competing business in the works during the lawsuit which the denied under oath. I was told repeatedly by my up line that the “non existent” company was all set to go, they had energy drinks and bars ready to go. They even had tastings with some of the triple’s and other’s. I was personally told how much better the energy drinks were than XS. So either they were lying on the stand or to me. They spent a lot of energy on price comparing and attempting to crush Q and lied under oath to do it and they lost. I do have a copy of the lawsuit saved somewhere. You can search woodward v quixtar and probably find it.

    I also know they ridicule anonymous bloggers yet Mark’s was fined an additional 58,500.00 in the lawsuit for that very thing…….go figure. Orrin got dinged for 12.5 million, Brady got hit for 9 million and marks for 3 million. Those numbers aren’t exact amounts they are within dollars of the actual amounts. Now you do not get hit with those kind of numbers if you are a little wrong. They got hammered because everything Q accused them of they must have done……Again, it was a 25 million dollar judgement. My understanding is that if they would have just focused on the contract being illegal that they would have won, as proved by the other lawsuit. Of course they would never admit anything like that because they have never ever been wrong on anything ever………LOL

  54. Used to be "all-in" permalink
    November 28, 2011 7:14 pm

    Amazing thread everyone! Keep up the great findings and disclosures!

    I went on PACER today and it looks like many, many documents from the Quixtar versus Woodward, Brady and Marks (Team) lawsuits can be obtained online for nominal per-page fees. It looks like a few of the documents are redacted, but there seems to be a treasure trove of information that is still publically available. Cases 3:07-cv-00505-ECR-RAM and 2:09-cv-12946-GER-PJK seem to be the main ones that are applicable, but there are a few other side ones (not sure about the proper legal definition for this). Just search under “Woodward, Orrin” and you should find the trail.

  55. Burned Out With MV permalink
    November 29, 2011 4:14 am

    Las Vegas Nevada ……. now here is a plan that beats the 99 to 1 odds you get in MLM and ya don’t have to piss off everyone you know. 🙂

    Put all the money you would spend on the tools, tickets and MV for a month on one number on the roulette wheel, 35 to 1 chance of a hit is much better.

  56. Brent Hansen permalink
    November 29, 2011 7:34 am


    Welcome to America, hope of the politicians sucking up to corporate America. Campaign contributions galore!

  57. Murray Lees permalink
    November 29, 2011 11:02 am

    I just want to add a big Thank You to everyone on this blog and the moderator. This is excellent stuff. It certainly warms my heart to know there are rational folks out there who aren’t/or are no longer afraid to call bullshit on these finks, meaning Orrin, Chris, Tim, Claude…the whole lot. A free market is only efficient if it’s a level playing field and Orrin et. al. have stacked the deck against everyone in their ‘community’ and have lied so much to folks that I believe that Orrin especially, now believes his own lie.

  58. Vogel permalink
    November 29, 2011 12:48 pm

    Yup, agree wholeheartedly Brent. One of the things that I find interesting about our discussion here is that it seems to transcend the partisan politics that have been dividing this country as of late. My impression is that people here are coming from both sides of the aisle (right and left) and yet we’ve all found common ground on this one issue. It’s quite refreshing to see; gives me a ray of hope that we as a nation might be able to put aside our political differences to tackle some of the pressing issues we’re facing. This is a good start anyway.

  59. Finally permalink
    November 29, 2011 5:46 pm

    When you google life, this site comes up. So now the team is getting all of their guy’s to start blogs……..interestingly enough they are slamming anonymous bloggers once again. It is interesting because they are the masters, Tim marks get hits for almost 60 grand for his anonymous blogging. I know our team did it, and the stuff that was being said about DeVoss had zero basis. I also have talked with other’s that have since left team about this. Cuck Cullen had and ran a blog, steve morgan blogged and I spoke with a couple of martins teammates and they were organizing slam campaigns as well. People on team had their computer hard drives scrubbed for fear they might get subpoenaed. I have been sent links to some of the teams blogs and they are trying to sound like they rise above…HA One guy even said his mother taught him not to say anything unless it was nice…………..the person that sent me the links swear that same guy was one of the best q bloggers………..why say anything ??? They are way guiltier of what they accuse anyone of…….People come on here with personal experiences and seak their truth…………I honestly believe they believe their lies to the point where they have serious problems.
    I mean really, Dan hawkins gets handed a pc business because if someone new didn’t go PC no one would believe and they have the nerve to stand on stage and say they did it. Talk about lack of character………one more tid bit

    “Arguing arguing early and late if a line were crooked he argued it straight”…….Orrin has said after repeating this on stage, “i changed, about you?” Well Team leaders are not the only ones that have recorded conversations ……….Orrin anything but changed………….in fact a triple 100 apologized for orrin after he saw him in action………..Yet the lemmings just keep buying into him. They think that just because they say it it is true……….like they say, if a thousand people say something stupid it is still stupid………Well they aren’t a thousand but…….well you figure it out…..

  60. Finally permalink
    November 30, 2011 6:04 pm

    I can’t, I do not want to go into detail but it is sad. It is like they act like victims and are the biggest perpetrators of what they slam others for. Maybe they changed, but I saw too much first hand stuff and have spent long hours with friends who have been hurt by these guy’s. I believe they had good intentions but when push comes to shove the business comes first and relationships go by the way side, especially if you get in the way of their paycheck. i honestly believe that unless you are on system and tow the team line you are no longer a friend. I have been told things to my face and then heard how I was slammed by the same person………….They have no credibility in my life any longer and have done some damage to other’s. Of course they say that it’s everyone else and we all have an axe to grind…………..if we share the truth of the damage that has been done especially to us, then we have a grudge………..Best of luck to them. It is like they say, in a year one of us will be right………….16 years in the business and Hubers file bankruptcy, Mike Gowin hit triple 100 in 14 months and has to go back to work, Cullen’s are back to work and bunch other’s as well…………gee who was right????

  61. Murray Lees permalink
    December 2, 2011 12:18 pm

    Anyone know why Claude Hamilton has let his business registration for Visioneast (the business entity he created when he was in Q) lapse. It was originally registered in Nova Scotia, Canada and can be searched on the Access Nova Scotia (Provincial Gov’t) site.

    Wonder where his business is registered now? I couldn’t find anything else attached to his name in Nova Scotia…where they still live….

  62. Finally permalink
    December 5, 2011 9:54 am

    It seems that with the posting of the IRS whistle blower info there will be some who have been burned by their up lines that will drop a line……….I know of more than a couple of ex team that have been left with high credit card debt and emotional scars. I guess that Orrin and Chris really have nothing to worry about being that they do everything above board, are self admitted men of character and integrity and Christians to boot. So if the IRS decides to scrutinize their business practices they have nothing to worry about and egg will be on the faces of those that believe otherwise……………Time will tell

  63. webelieved permalink
    December 5, 2011 10:17 am

    Finally- I love your posts! It is so refreshing to hear the truth!

  64. Finally permalink
    December 6, 2011 5:03 am

    webelieved, I appreciate your kind words. Truth is something that I did not get in team, i got lies and manipulation but never the truth. We got lies of omission and lies of commission. I am thankful we can come on here and tell what really happened, it helps us understand that we are not crazy 🙂

    As afar as the IRS I have been hearing a lot of interest in this one. Casey Combdens name has also come up, and I am not sure about why. It may be that he showed these men how to hide……….Like I said time will tell and they have hurt so many without taking any responsibility that they kinda deserve it……….

  65. Vogel permalink
    March 1, 2012 10:42 pm

    I was just reading an interesting article about the tax evasion conviction of Tom Mower, who ran an MLM called Neways prior to founding running an MLM called Sisel. Mower ended up serving 33 months for hiding millions of dollars from the IRS using a series of shell corporations. His wife and the company’s attorney (who was disbarred) also did jail time. This snippet stood out:

    “Further the sheer number of shell corporations and entities that the Mowers created here — and which were payees for the various commission checks — is nothing short of astounding, as is the number of different payees indicated on the commission checks, as well as the number of different accounts in which the Mowers deposited all of the commission checks,’ the ruling said.”

    Sound familiar?

  66. March 1, 2012 11:29 pm

    Good find, Vogel! Yes, I can definitely see some similarities there.

  67. Freedomhaha permalink
    March 2, 2012 6:02 am

    33 months would be a good start!

  68. Binajack permalink
    April 10, 2012 9:56 am

    Someone I work with wants to meet with me to talk about a “great leadership opportunity” called TEAM. Should I run far and fast?

  69. April 10, 2012 12:45 pm

    Read the rest of the information on this site (i.e. 50 Questions, LIFE Primer, etc.) and ask questions to your co-worker. Most of the people who participate on this site do not think TEAM LIFE is a good business opportunity. The decision, however, is ultimately up to you.

  70. Speak Your Truth permalink
    April 10, 2012 2:43 pm

    Binajack~I agree with Amthrax words of advice. Haha…you are in charge, no doubt you will decide on what is best for you, just as I am sure you do with all your decisions. Good luck.

  71. Freedomhaha permalink
    April 10, 2012 6:14 pm

    Binajack- Simply, YES! RUN!

  72. TruthSeeker permalink
    April 11, 2012 4:57 am

    Vogel, nice find on the Mowers. What would stop the Team charlatans from holding multiple positions in their own organizations and double-dipping on generated volume? Its done all the time in MLM, and hypothetically one would need a bunch of LLCs or corporations to perpetuate that scam.

  73. Binajack permalink
    April 11, 2012 6:52 am

    After a good deal of research my intention is to listen, say “thanks for the opportunity but no thanks” and skitter away. I have no intention of getting involved or investing a penny. Thanks for the comments.

  74. Speak Your Truth permalink
    April 11, 2012 8:45 am


    Thanks for sharing your thoughts. If I were in your position and had never knew or experienced what we and many others had; the LIEf’s Policy & Procedures & Comp Plan Analysis would be all the red flags I would have needed to make the personal decision to Run and Run Far and Fast..

    You are forunate it is someone you work with and not your family or someone you really trust who is ‘inviting’ you! You don’t have to look far to see the tragic damaged family relationships, due this farce they call a ‘business opportunity’!

    Good luck…be prepared for the ‘pressure’ or condesending jabs, when you say NO Thanks!

  75. switch permalink
    April 11, 2012 5:12 pm

    Yeah, it’s too bad you don’t have access to a bottle of the joker juice….you could show up with shot glasses and one of those corny coolers they used to wrap around the bottle ACTING like they were something special….

    I remember those days….the almighty “cure all”….yeah, what a bunch of jacka$$e$.

  76. Freedomhaha permalink
    April 12, 2012 4:43 am

    Makes me sick to see the “BS” from Tim Marks show up on Twitter. I know this might not be the best place to put this, but man it makes my blood boil. I see his name (retweeted by others) and I get worked up that he is still out there spreading his lies.

  77. Nick permalink
    February 25, 2015 11:26 am

    Nevada has tax advantages. Nevada LLCs are a good asset protection strategy. Basically protects your wealth if you get sued, which happens a lot when you have money. This is a common strategy among people with a high net worth.

  78. Christine permalink
    October 28, 2015 1:24 pm

    First of all there are places in Navada that is all they do…you call them up and ask them to set up a Corporation. They can have many many clients. They fill out all the paper work and their address is the place of business. If you want to do it and don’t know how…easy peazy.
    Yes there are benefits to having a corporation in Nevada…one of the biggest ones has to do with not getting sued. To me this doesn’t seem like that big of a deal. I’ve set myself up with different business names trying to figure out what I want, what direction do I want to go in and do I like another name better.

  79. Melanie Morgan permalink
    November 1, 2015 10:56 am


    As you state there are many benefits to having a Nevada corp.,that isn’t the point of the article. I am not sure why you came to this website or what your point is, maybe you will share that.

    How much of this site have you read?

  80. March 31, 2017 7:42 pm

    It is not uncommon for people or business groups to form multiple business entities – usually for liability, insurance, and / or tax purposes. For example, taxi cab companies in large cities often create a separate LLC or corporation for each taxi in order to limit the legal liability in accidents, especially in a litigation-happy society like we have in the US. This is legal and I see nothing inherently wrong or necessarily suspicious about it.


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