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This site presents another point of view on the Amway/MonaVie/TEAM/Orrin Woodward scam or opportunity. It is designed to inform people of what they might expect to see when building an Amway, MonaVie or LIFE business. I want to give prospective and current distributors another perspective on the opportunity. This “other side of the plan,” is designed to help people make an informed decision on whether to join, continue, or leave the business.

I am first and foremost a critic of the following:

  1. Abusive Amway/MonaVie/LIFE Motivational Organizations (AMO): Many teaching and training organizations use deceptive and cult-like tactics to indoctrinate distributors into making poor decisions which are primarily in the interest of the AMO rather than the distributor’s own Amway/MonaVie business.
  2. MonaVie: MonaVie is a relative newcomer to the MLM marketplace, but it exhibits the same problems that Amway with regards to unscrupulous training organizations. Additionally, it is arguable that its products are too expensive vis-a-vis their dubious value.
  3. Alticor Corporation: The parent company to Amway (formerly known as Quixtar in North America), Alticor has tacitly allowed these System abuses to occur over the past several decades. It has turned a blind eye to what was happening because the money kept flowing into its coffers. Accreditation in recent years has promised to curb some of these excesses, but it remains to be seen if the program has been effective.
  4. Lately, I have been focusing my analysis and investigative efforts on TEAM, an MLM teaching and training organization led by Orrin Woodward. Woodward’s MLM roots began Amway, spread to MonaVie, and are now sprouting up in his own homegrown LIFE MLM, which he started in November, 2011.

You can read a little bit about my history in the business in the post, How I Succeeded By Failing.

On this web site, I will share my experiences building the business, what I learned after leaving, and my thoughts on the future of Amway, MonaVie, LIFE and other related MLM businesses.

If you wish to send me an email, you can send your correspondence to:

amthrax (at) ymail (dot) com

176 Comments leave one →
  1. mike permalink
    June 11, 2009 2:19 pm

    I used to be in INA and I wanted to meet with you to tell you my story so that you can share info with other people so that they can avoid what happened to me. Are you open to meeting in San Jose area?

  2. June 11, 2009 10:01 pm

    Mike: How about sending me an email to amthrax (at) with your story?

  3. Jon permalink
    June 23, 2009 5:01 pm

    Hey man, I like your site. I got into LTD/Amway because my brother got in and went to a conference where he is now full fledged convinced about this thing. I got in thinking that I would genuinely be able to save consumers money by giving them one stop access to cheap products like Eastbays, and half.coms where i already shop and find great deals and recommend them to people. I get in only to find out most partner stores only give a discount to IBOs not customers. Basically I have to ask them to do me the favor of shopping through my site first. That pry will only work with close friends and family. I believe one can make money in this business but only through much retailing is it genuinely creating wealth. LTD is much better than Britt or other orgs it seems but they still fall into the trap of telling you to get your 300 pv if couple 150 pv if single and then go out and network. What’s your take on LTD? They also talk about lifestyle too much for my taste.

  4. Jon permalink
    June 23, 2009 5:04 pm

    And they talk about buying everything from yourself and teaching others to do the same. Problem is most equivalent brands like kellogs cereal which we can buy are more expensive per ounce even with BV kickback. Unless I get into the 18+% range. When I told my brother to only buy what makes sense money wise like SA8 he said nobody saves their way to financial freedom. Oh boy 😦 I don’t know what to do bc though i like some products I don’t want to ask anybody to be in this system if there is nothing more than a sliver of a chance of success.

  5. June 23, 2009 5:42 pm

    Jon – If you are happy just buying the products for yourself, then continue to do so. No one is forcing you to build the business.

  6. Jon permalink
    June 23, 2009 6:08 pm

    I know but i’m receiving intense pressure from my brother and upline. I have no problem generally fighting off peer pressure when it comes to drinking and such, but my brother says i need to go to the conference. I have already put in hundreds of dollars to the biz with minimal return. I told him i’ll continue to work it but only on the side (i’m pry going to get out as soon as i get rid of more inventory) he says that’ll all go away by conference.

    anyway you know of telling an ambot that they should at least track expenses to see if it’s a good move. told my brother that and he said most businesses don’t turn profits for years so he doesn’t care and if the dream is big enough the numbers don’t matter.

  7. Jon permalink
    June 23, 2009 6:09 pm

    i love my brother and i don’t want him to be incredibly pissed at me but i’m afraid i’ll have to face that alternative. anything i say to caution him is automatically labelled as negative and tearing down his dream.

  8. June 23, 2009 9:44 pm

    Tell him that while you support him and want him to do well, that this business is not the right fit for you. There are plenty of other opportunities out there, and that you are interested in pursuing them, but not this one.

    Don’t fight back if he insists on arguing with you. Take the high road.

  9. Isaac permalink
    October 27, 2009 1:04 am

    I was part of Brad Duncan clan in the late 1990’s and quit after few years. I Still believe in the principles of the business. I just wish these leaders of the business would too.. hypocrites!

  10. John S permalink
    March 21, 2010 11:26 am

    Jon, I’m also currently building a business and loving it, but if you are an IBO but aren’t interested in building a big business right now your brother and your upline should respect that. Putting undue pressure on you, the downline, isn’t helping you. If they’re not helping you, then they aren’t helping themselves. What they’re doing isn’t smart business.

    Also, what is this nonsense about inventory? I’ve never had to have an inventory, it’s pretty much all online based now.

  11. Kimberly permalink
    July 8, 2010 10:30 am

    Hey Dude!

    YOUR blog is ALL Negative. Is there anything good about YOUR site? What on earth did Amway do to YOU? YOU meant to tell me you dont like saving money, making money and helping people. Ok well run back to Mommy and suck YOUR thumb and complain to all YOUR playgroud friends.

    If your not buying from your own store, then allow everyone else to make money off you and suck you dry. Idiot

    Gracias a Dias que me da mas de lo que meresco.

    I Know you know the truth. You might not even publish this but im gald YOU saw it.


  12. Garima permalink
    December 19, 2010 10:25 am

    i totally agree wid kimberly.. As for dear Mr. Amthrax…Hello!!! dreamless and aimless as you are…this certainly does nt giv u d right to discourage others. At least get your facts right dude…Amway is the only company going into continuous sustainable profit all over the world inspite of recession. The only advice i hav for you is “Go get a life”. May God bless you and give you some wisdom.

  13. December 19, 2010 11:41 am

    Not everyone will succeed in Amway or MLM. For those that don’t, isn’t it better for them to cut their losses and leave before losing more money? There’s more opportunity out there than just your business; it would behoove those that quit to see what else is out there. Amway and MLM is not the be all to end all.

  14. Garima permalink
    December 19, 2010 10:38 pm

    But dear Amthrax….those who quit should not go out and make a web page like this one. Plus let me tell you those who fail in this are the ones who want easy money for example you yourself, or are outright pessimists like you are. Stop being so negative and telling off other enthusiasts.

  15. Joecool permalink
    December 20, 2010 8:57 am

    Is it negative or the truth? The bottom line fact is that most people who get involved in Amway or other MLM end up with a net loss. Those who attend functions and buy support materials end up with the biggest losses.

  16. December 20, 2010 10:00 am

    Garima – read the rest of my web site and all of the posts before commenting again. You’ll note that I’m critical of unethical systems and the company that (tacitly) condones such behavior. I generally have no problem with Amway’s products, aside from thinking that they are on the expensive side vis-a-vis their quality. I encourage those that are in the business to retail their products in order to make immediate income. There are examples of IBOs who are successul at retailing. The majority of people who don’t succeed, however, are those tied to systems that are draining their bank accounts with the purchase of tools, function tickets and other useless motivational information. Positive is the opposite of negative. You might think I’m being negative, but when you are on my side of the equation, you’ll see that I’m quite positive. IF Amway doesn’t work out for you, there are other opportunities out there. What do you say to those people who fail at Amway? Are they losers? Quitters? Failures? Now, who’s being negative here?

  17. Garima permalink
    December 21, 2010 9:33 am

    i believe that those who quit are losers big tym. they do not hav enuf understanding of the process and end up criticising. u may not believe me bt will surely believe the global statistics which i will send u soon dear.

  18. Joecool permalink
    December 21, 2010 9:43 am

    Quitting when you are losing money is just a business decision. Who said Amway is the only way to make a buck? I find that odd, especially when most IBO lose money. There are many many more successful people out in the general world than there are in Amway. Think about that for a second when your upline speaks of “association”.

  19. Garima permalink
    December 21, 2010 10:20 am

    well i guess provin a point to u ppl is like banging my head against the wall…… pessimistic u ppl are raelly. only wen i go diamond will i get back to u nw i guess

  20. Joecool permalink
    December 21, 2010 10:45 am

    You are welcome to go diamond and let us know how Peter Island is. Merry Christmas!

  21. The cult permalink
    January 12, 2011 4:13 am


    I do not understand why you do not have a blog about the pastors who are used to control people in the LOA’s in amway . You seem to only point out the big pins in amway.

    Are you not aware that the pastors they use , blur the lines on religion and faith so much that it is responsible for many of the cult like nature of the industry ?

    I personal have seen pastors brought into rooms to try and convince IBO’s from quitting the business !!

    I have even heard of guys like Paul tsika being used to strong arm downline for the head of the LOA like n wwdb’s case . This guy had the whistle blown on him last year by some of the people leaving wwdb when they found out he had been kicked out of churches and committed adultery , and well as drugged young girls .. I mean it was straight out of a movie .

    I personal watched Paul talk about folks who had left wwdb as if they just had no morals now and where not in gods grace !!

  22. January 12, 2011 9:03 am

    @ The Cult – I’ve written about religion and the business before. I hadn’t heard about this Paul fellow until those comments about him came up from several weeks ago.

  23. Joecool permalink
    January 12, 2011 9:14 am

    And we should note that those “pastors” can’t do anything without the diamonds allowing them to speak at the functions.

  24. Garima permalink
    February 6, 2011 6:02 am

    hey am really very pleased to declare dat i hav recently joined amway and the results are GREAT!!!! Its the most logical thing to do…for sensible ppl all around the world in these times of recession and insecurity…i mean ppl can surely not earn just by starting blogs like this one isn’t it?? But i guess its all a matter of guts and of course sour grapes can grudge as much as they want doesn’t affect my paycheck at all!!!

  25. aurora permalink
    February 6, 2011 12:50 pm

    This commenter requested that her comments be removed from this site.

  26. Garima permalink
    February 7, 2011 11:59 pm

    Aurora darling….anybody who uses or does mobile texting/chatting etc will understand what i write….get a life all of us who are part of Amway are well educated, rich and well to do people its only the rest of the world( people like for example) which needs to be educated and enlightened. By the way, may i have the pleasure of knowing YOUR educational qualifications dear???

  27. aurora permalink
    February 8, 2011 3:33 am

    This commenter requested that her comments be removed from this site.

  28. aurora permalink
    February 8, 2011 3:34 am

    You know, Garima, come to think of it, you sound just like Happy Girl. Same poor grammer and degree demanding posts.

  29. aurora permalink
    February 9, 2011 5:53 am

    This commenter requested that her comments be removed from this site.

  30. James permalink
    February 14, 2011 2:46 pm

    With regard to the Amway opportunity, specifically INA. Although, I presume the same is true for all systems, the real money does not come from Amway / Alticor / etc. It is the system itself. The meetings and tools produce well over half the income the Diamonds received. And 50% is conservative.

  31. BUBU permalink
    February 14, 2011 4:28 pm

    Amthrax-Excellent site! I agree 100% with your above “mission statement!” Your blog is one of the more even handed & level headed critiques of Amway, WWDB, Quixtar, etc. organizations out there…My compliments, good Sir!

    Joe Cool & Aurora – I agree with all your posts I’ve read so far, here & elsewhere…Well done!

    Kimberly, Garima & All pro-Amway supporters-You say “pessimist”…I say “practical!” (End of story!)

  32. UnKnown permalink
    February 26, 2011 7:54 pm


    If you ever come back to this website, PLEASE read:

    In regards to your comment:
    “i believe that those who quit are losers big tym. they do not hav enuf understanding of the process and end up criticising.”

    I’ve been involved in this industry for over 10 years… I’ve reached significant levels… don’t think for one second that people who have quit don’t know EXACTLY how to build, recruit, sell, and influence hundreds of people on Team. Been there -done that.

    And then you said, “hey am really very pleased to declare dat i hav recently joined amway and the results are GREAT!!!!”

    If you recently joined Amway then your obviously a rookie. Just because you think MLM/Amway or Team is GREAT!!! Doesn’t mean that I didn’t think it was great too, at one time and then woke up.

    Don’t paint everyone with the same paint brush. I think your right that some people don’t know how to build this…. but not me. I know how to build it… and built it I did. If you only knew how hard I worked this opportunity – 6-7 nights per week…. thousands of miles driven every week… thousands of dollars of tools purchased for personal use every month… minimum of 6 cases of juice ordered every month… top leadership package … speaking at hotels across the country… etc etc… you have no idea!

    I hope you enjoy your journey, and I wish you all the success!

  33. Garima permalink
    February 28, 2011 12:58 am

    Mr Unknown, I have joined Amway as i don’t wish to remain “unknown” like you for the rest of my life. I am a scientist so I don’t really have time to waste on these silly blogs. The only reason why I revolt every time somebody posts negative remarks on this blog is that you guys have no right to discourage people with such shallow blogs. “Don’t paint everyone with the same brush” is what I should say to you Sir. First get all your facts right. If you think Amway is a big scam….a scam that has lasted for over 50 years ought to have something in it. My efforts will not waver till you guys just shut this blog of yours.

  34. aurora permalink
    February 28, 2011 5:31 am

    This commenter requested that her comments be removed from this site.

  35. humiliated permalink
    February 28, 2011 6:34 am

    My ass you are a scientist Garima. Pray tell, what branch of science are you involved in and what level of education have you achieved? A Bachelor of Science in Snake Oilography? You are clearly trying to lie your way into credibility here and it is despicable.

    This blog ain’t goin’ nowhere honey,not as long as there are people like you are around, victimizing and conning the unsuspecting public. There may be decent people “accidentally” involved in these MLMs, but you are NOT one of them.

  36. team deception permalink
    February 28, 2011 7:07 am

    humiliated, that is one of the best comments that I have read. Your right on about this blog.

  37. Garima permalink
    February 28, 2011 9:08 am

    My dear Aurora
    It really pains me how you have lost focus in life. How old are you by the way? If you wish to be treated I have some great psychiatrists in my contacts, here in India. They believe that insane people usually repeat the same whether it makes sense to them or not! I have my sympathies with you. If nothing else at least respect people who are older to you!

  38. Garima permalink
    February 28, 2011 9:12 am

    Dear Mr. Humiliated
    What an appropriate name you have chosen for yourself! i am glad you know who you are!! Please mind your tongue dear because I know how to set people like you right. As for my profile I don’t know if you have the required amount of GK or not, but I am a Microbiologist working with ISRO here in India. Even I know how to abuse but I do not so it is better if you use better words( show me some class dude!!).

  39. Speak Your Truth permalink
    February 28, 2011 9:48 am

    Way to go on calling that one out humilated!
    Unknown- with your 10 years and my 13, I believe that = 23, pretty sure that would constitue some educated experience at least!
    Good luck to you Garima, we hope you succeed! Come back in about 23 years and let us know how you are doing.

  40. Vogel permalink
    February 28, 2011 9:51 am

    Hmmm…derisive MLM troll rears its ugly head. Do you plan to say something relevant someday or are you just here to bitch people out for no apparent reason other than that their comments might cut into your paltry bottom line?

  41. Vogel permalink
    February 28, 2011 9:53 am

    Just because you don’t like what people are saying doesn’t mean that they don’t have the right to say it. Smarten up!

  42. Speak Your Truth permalink
    February 28, 2011 12:03 pm

    Vogel- Thanks for more laughs, much needed!

  43. aurora permalink
    February 28, 2011 12:15 pm

    This commenter requested that her comments be removed from this site.

  44. Vogel permalink
    February 28, 2011 12:24 pm

    I loved her comment ” I know how to set people like you right”.

    ROFL! All I can say to that is bring it on beotch! And while your at it, try to find a way to make you sketchy unspecified background in microbiology relevant to our discusion, and then see how quickly you get carved into little pieces. She knows not who she’s messing with.

    I’m still trying to find how microbiology relates to this thread; more importantly, why someone who claims to be a microbiologist is actually an Amway clown. Must not have been very successful in microbiology if she gave it all up in lieu of plugging scandalously overpriced laundry detergent and the like. Har Har!

  45. humiliated permalink
    February 28, 2011 6:35 pm

    Ha. Garima. Vogel said it before I could, but, if I may BRING IT! I am shaking in my boots waiting for you to “set me right”! What exactly would that involve? Would you bore me into unconsciousness with your incessant, repetitive & nauseating ambot speak? That might hurt actually, I could hit my head on the corner of my desk while I was slipping into unconsciousness, get a big, unattractive bruise…on the other hand, I beg of you, please don’t set me straight!

    And, you presumptuous & pompous piece of crap, I am a woman.

  46. Rajinder permalink
    March 1, 2011 10:12 am

    I must commend Garima for her brave efforts. Guys what has Amway done to you. I have gone through all the comments and posts and all I can say is that the only reason why all of you failed is your “greed”. This business is not meant for greedy people. The simple plan for MLM business is “slow and steady wins the race”, thats it. End of story.

  47. Garima permalink
    March 1, 2011 10:25 am

    Dear Vogel and Dearest Aurora
    I mentioned my qualifications because some idiot demanded it on this blog.
    As for you Aurora your break neck speed was the reason why you broke down so soon. I have been slow but I have sustained my income as well as my growth. Had you been in my LOS, I would have given you better advice. My field of study helps me understand Nutrilite and helps to improve the general health of all people around me. Don’t we all want good health and well being?? At the age of 52, I am sure you understand what good health means. I am doing a noble job so nobody’s silly remarks can possibly stop me!! Try harder guys!!!!!!!!

    P.S- All this shit about Brad Duncan commenting on Greg Duncan’s bankruptcies and David Shores home for closure, Brad Wolgamott’s infidelity is no concern of mine they are not in my uplines. Happy???

  48. aurora permalink
    March 2, 2011 4:42 am

    This commenter requested that her comments be removed from this site.

  49. March 21, 2011 8:44 am

    Dear Amthrax

    Thank you so much for your site (and also thanks to my best friend Google to be able to find your site!) to see that my doubts about this whole way of doing business were not imaginary.

    At the moment I am listening to the CD’s “Rich Plan Poor Plan” and “Private Franchising in a High Tech, High Touch World” I got last week, at a seminar I was invited to. Right there and then I said that what they are telling seems like a fairy tale, and you know what I do not believe in fairy tales anymore.

    So, no chance of getting to become millionaire this way 😉 I rather be poor than be used by others. And even worse the “ignorant” people are dragging friends into this system, because they are blinded by the fiction of this business opportunity, and not the facts (that hardly anyone makes a profit).

    So thanks, thanks, thanks again.

  50. March 21, 2011 8:57 am

    You’re welcome. There are other ways to save and make money in this world that don’t require the same degree of time, effort, and money that building a very large MLM business entails. Good luck in finding an opportunity that will help you achieve your goals.

  51. Speak Your Truth permalink
    March 21, 2011 9:06 am

    Welcome me,
    I am glad you can see through the deception of what this “business opprotunity” is. Please,Feel free to share more, how long have you been in, hopefully not too long and you haven’t lost too much money!

  52. March 21, 2011 9:34 am

    Hi Speak Your Truth,

    Thankfully I have not been sucked into this system. I did not sign up, I just attended a seminar. I just emailed the person who invited me that this “opportunity” is not for me, and that I was not interested.

    I have had experiences with other “great opportunities” which turn to be just rip offs. And with a blog I also warn people to be careful. What I noticed last week that all these people who offer these “opportunities” to others act the same way to lure innocent, hardworking people in.

    They present a nice story, there are no facts, no financial details, nothing at all. For me this is a red flag

    There is pressure to act/sign up within a few days. ….. another red flag.

    Specific questions were not answered. How much do I have to invest? No answer. What are the costs yearly? No answer

    They act if they are your best friend. Well some people are just nice, but combined with the other signals it is a red flag.

    They see that you are vulnerable. Probably you have said something about starting your own business, because you cannot find a job, or that is hard to make ends meet. If someone comes with THE solution, just be careful.

    Although I did not experience the following at this seminar and with the person who invited me, it can happen that they leave you with the feeling that you made the worst mistake in your life if you do not take the chance.

  53. aurora permalink
    March 21, 2011 9:33 am

    This commenter requested that her comments be removed from this site.

  54. Speak Your Truth permalink
    March 21, 2011 10:51 am

    Hey aurora glad to see you came out to play, LOL!!!

  55. Speak Your Truth permalink
    March 21, 2011 11:05 am

    Wow I wish I could say that happened to us, but I have learned somethings about what cult experts say are cult practices that fit with this organization and that is the most vulernable people are those who are going through,or have recently gone through a tragedy like divorce, lost loved one, financial problems, a recent move into a new location etc.! This would be the first and #1, WARNING and if anyone is or has recently experienced these challenges they SHOULD NOT get involved with any “buisness opprotunities” or anything other thing that sounds to good to be true.
    I would even say there are some cult-church like people that this warning would apply to also. Take your time and deal with the challenges and get through them first. Another thing is the high-pressure of “get in right now or you will miss out on..” or “don’t believe everything you read on the internet” There isn’t a legitmate business that wouldn’t allow you time to do the research! READ WHAT THE FTC RECOMMENDS FOR THE MLM INDUSTRY AND THEIR LAWS ON WHAT YOU SHOULD DO AND EXPECT TO GET FOR WHAT THEY ARE CLAIMING YOU WILL GET, like $$$ claims etc.!

  56. March 21, 2011 11:55 am

    Hi Speak Your Truth,

    I think you nailed the pin on the head with your “cult” comparison. Vulnerable people can easily become victims , because these “cult” people are good in praising you in every possible way. And isn’t nice to belong to a group of people where you are appreciated.

    Sadly enough the “followers” (the person who took me to the seminar is really a nice person) are in a way so dangerous, even more than clever sales people, because they themselves believe in the system they try to get you in. I think they cannot change there way of thinking (like Garima) because they are just brainwashed. And if they would have any doubt, they probably ignore it because to admit that they have been trapped, or have enabled other people to get trapped, is probably too much to handle.

    I will stick with my life savers “If it sounds to good to be true, it probably is not ” and “fairy tales do not exists”

  57. Speak Your Truth permalink
    March 21, 2011 12:42 pm

    That is one of my biggest regrets as I started figuring out the real truth and feeling trapped, we had already trapped thousands of people into the same illusional lie. You can’t imagine the excruicating guilt and the worst of all was the regret and pain suffered of leaving our children and families, missing all their Birthday parties,(rescheduling) for a different day because of the Major Leadership Conventions and Seminars, every flipping year for their entire childhoods! I could go on for days on all the family things we missed and rescheduled! My prayer is the Justice will be served quickly and swiftly! Because there are thousands of others who will find out the truth and when they do, it is going to be more destruction in the wake of the “fairy tale land that doesn’t exist”! In the end even those teams we had built and the income we earned was all stolen from us! It truly is criminal to me!

  58. March 21, 2011 1:27 pm

    Hi Speak Your Truth,

    I am sorry to read that you have lost more than “only” money, it seems that you have , for many years, lost your life and used relations for this “promise” to have a “great life”. What you are telling me is that by entering this “business opportunity” you completely lost control over your own life? What I heard last week at the seminar was just completely the opposite story, that it would enable you to get control over your life!

    Maybe you should write you life story in detail, and ask Amthrax to publish it to prevent more victims of this cult system. If people can read how it is going to affect there personal life with family and kids, I hope they think twice before stepping into this system.

  59. aurora permalink
    March 25, 2011 4:52 am

    Dear Speak;

    Every time I read your posts, I realize I could have written them myself. You have described, once again, the ugly reality that is mlm.

    You walk away from your families, friends, and anyone/anything that built your life. These people are who anchor you and keep your sane. amway rips you away from them and then demands your loyalty as if they were your new family.

    After you have flipped off your family and friends enough times, the amway cult is all you have left. Tragic.

    We, too, will never get those years back with our kids. I’m still kicking myself.

    The brain-washed ambots can’t stand the fact that we exist and, horror of horrors, we’re getting the word out about their tool business.

  60. Speak Your Truth permalink
    March 25, 2011 7:52 am

    There are some reasons I won’t publish my full story and on this forum, I agree telling your story is very healing for both myself and others. I do not feel right now is the time yet. Thanks for your understanding and I hope you come back to share some more.

  61. Speak Your Truth permalink
    March 25, 2011 8:10 am

    Thanks for your very wise words you share here.
    I also love your twist of humor you always add too, as you already know that helps in the healing! I really had a hard time laughing for a long time, it was sheer angry at the betrayal and injustices. They really screwed with the wrong loyal people. I do believe and have alot of respect for juicescam site and think he is making a difference, kudos to him for putting himself on the line. But it really is the tool business abuses and the unethical, immoral, and even illegal things that we have experienced with the Team that caused me to ended up on Amthrax’s site to begin with. It was more fitting with our experience. It was the beginning of the end when we left Q/A, into MV, so there isn’t alot of experience persay with my MV in comparison.
    I have been trying since I came here to express my heart of gratitude and I believe I have found a way. So, stay tuned. Thx

  62. September 29, 2011 7:37 pm

    This may be the wrong place to ask, but I’m not sure where else to go. I am curious about the what people here think of the actual books within Team. The top 50, and even the Top 5. Aside from the actual business itself, what do you feel about the information amongst the books?
    (If this was covered somewhere else here, just guide me there. Thanks)

  63. September 29, 2011 8:30 pm

    @Mattjer22 and all:

    You should post your inquiry in the Ex-TEAM Discussion post.

  64. Rhonda Hill permalink
    October 21, 2011 5:03 pm

    From reading some of the argumentative posts here, I think it’s a true saying that “a person convinced against his will is of the same opinion still.” Sometimes we have to let people find out the truth for themselves and not argue with them. The arguing got no one anywhere.

  65. CeeEss permalink
    November 8, 2011 6:17 pm

    Thanks for making this site; I now understand a lot better what’s been happening with my father the past 10+ years. Maybe you could have a page to try to help family members of current members deal? I feel like I haven’t seen my real dad in a decade. 😦

  66. November 8, 2011 8:00 pm

    There are a couple of posts on this site that have information about family members trying to get their relatives out. Search for the post on Tyson from the Midwest; lots of good information there.

    Editor’s note: removed Tyson’s full name at his request

  67. CeeEss permalink
    November 9, 2011 1:38 pm

    Thanks Amthrax and webelieved.

    It’s not that I didn’t know he’s been trying to recruit me since day 1; he was incredibly un-subtle about it when he started. He has been becoming more subtle as I’ve refused to engage at all–by which I mean, I won’t even have the conversation anymore; in the beginning, I would respond clearly by saying I wasn’t interested and never would be. I found that this didn’t work and he kept trying.

    Somehow, even though it’s only ever been his enthusiastic and certain perspective on things, it’s always seemed cult-like to me so I’ve resisted. What this site helped me see was 1) Just how much of his conversation with me over the past ten yeas (all of it, it seems) is him repeating TEAM/LIFE jargon (I found a very long list somewhere on this site and realized I recognized more than half of the phrases!! Especially the one about how I’ll never succeed at anything, ever, unless I do this thing.) 2) That his focus and the absolutely crazy amounts of money he’s lost are not unusual, and more importantly, his blindness to the implications of spending so much and making none net is symptomatic. It does seem cult-like, as well as addiction-like, to me. I’ll look at the Hassan books, thanks.

    I will also look for those other posts.

  68. November 9, 2011 2:47 pm

    The long list of TEAM Speak can be found here:

  69. CeeEss permalink
    November 14, 2011 12:36 pm

    webelieved: The effect has really just been steady alienation. I used to trust my father (yes, I’m an adult) implicitly and now I will discuss nothing that actually matters to me with him. I’ve learned the hard way that he’ll try to use anything I say to somehow recruit me. Our conversations are much less frequent than they used to be and they are superficial – although I’m not sure he’s noticed as he just goes on and on about “the business” anyway.

  70. switch permalink
    November 14, 2011 2:23 pm

    I can’t imagine CeeEss, (well, actually I can because I saw it up close and personal…quite the freak show, let me tell ya.) but everywhere he goes, everyone he meets, nothing compares to this. How sad can it truly be when this $hit is on his mind 24/7?

    Plain and simple, my advice to you would be(and I know he’s your dad and it’s not easy) but to pull the plug COMPLETELY but just for awhile with him and see what happens. What would his reaction to that one be?

    What a sad deal, (we’re talking two weeks after the launch) his or her own father is trying to suck/scam their own kid into this.

    How sick.

  71. brent hansen permalink
    November 14, 2011 3:32 pm

    I feel bad too CeeEss, but with me the roles were reversed, I was trying to suck my dad in. In hindsight I realize what a fool I must have been for even considering getting family involved now that I know the truth behind the compensation structure. I lost somewhere in the neighborhood of 250K – 300K over a 12-13 yr period, not to mention 4 or 5 cars I wore out and all the time missed with my children. I hope for your dad’s and families sake he doesn’t approach that.

  72. November 14, 2011 3:47 pm

    Wow Brent,

    For an outsider it is really unbelievable that you had to fall so hard and deep before your eyes were opened. I am so sorry for you and all the others who have been or still are in the same situation.

    I am curious when you started to see the truth. Was it a sudden “light bulb” in your mind, or nagging feelings that came to haunt you? Or was everything taken away from you? It must have been so hard to come in terms with the deception after 13 years, and to see world, you saw as the reality and worked so hard for, fall apart.

  73. brent hansen permalink
    November 14, 2011 4:30 pm


    I was no slouch, I was all in, full on, hard core. Sad thing is I flushed a $100,000 a year job, that had massive benefits, stock options, and a huge opportunity to move into a regional VP position to pursue the dream. I began with Legacy in 1995, I believe one year after Orrin began. Chased the ever elusive freedom in A/Q for 12 years, then spent a brief 18 months with Monavie, and moved into another binary in pre-launch, and took a contract and position with a company (another hybrid binary) to launch in Asia. I had 17 positions in the binary tree, and a 2% override on several countries.

    I only had my eyes opened because of a mentor I met during this pre-launch. He was a real leader, a very successful surgeon, who served throughout Asia doing surgeries for children, free of charge. We had combined forces for this pre-launched, and he was using the Networking model to try and help people have a better future. He gave lots of fish, and viewed Networking as a way to teach the people to fish.

    After a very successful pre-launch we had enrolled around 3-4,000 people between us in our first 45 days with the company. Then, two years ago this Thanksgiving, we were in the Philippines together, and began wondering why so few people could make money. For the first time in over 15 years in MLM I began to look at the model from the bottom up and tried to figure out ways to get poverty-stricken people into a profitable situation.

    When we took our eyes off of our own success, and looked at the model from the new persons perspective, we were totally astounded with the sheer mathematics of MLM compensation plans. The $35 a month these folks were paying to remain active, and on autoship, equated to around 20-25% of their monthly income. It would be an equivalent of an American being on a $1,000 a month autoship requirement.

    I felt sick as I realized that the model I had helped introduce to my friends, and family in the Philippines would devastate them financially, and the rest is history. I have since done extensive research and personally analyzed somewhere close to around 100 MLM compensation plans, trying to find those that are viable, and those that are not. The deeper I get, the more ‘dirt’ I find. My goal now is to used my experience and knowledge to educate others. My eyes have been opened, and now I am joining forces with like-minded people to educate the masses.

  74. das permalink
    November 14, 2011 7:09 pm

    I’m glad your are here Brent and want to thank you for helping me better understand compensation plans.

  75. Emily permalink
    November 14, 2011 7:42 pm

    Brent, Thank you for sharing your story!! I think it is really interesting that you built in thrid world countries. About a year before I joined team my dad and i took a mission trip to a socialist island nation about seventy miles south of Florida. I would listen to the speakers on stage say that anyone can make it. I would think of my friends that I met down there. I would wonder if the govenment would allow the people of this nation to gain wealth, how would the they accept it. Would they understand the concept of possibily being wealthy. Would they grasp the idea of building a busness. I know and understand that there is quite a different mind set in the Philippines then where I had served. Where I was the govenment had full control over the people. Everything is rationed food, clothing, and sanitary items. They are able to purchase things on the black market but it is very expensive and most don’t have it. So to wrap it up thanks for sharing your story and touching on something that i always wondered if it had been tried.

  76. brent hansen permalink
    November 14, 2011 7:42 pm


    You are more than welcome. I think that poor compensation plans are indicative of the industry. MLM in its current state is not even a business opportunity, unless of course, you own the company, or have learned to position yourself at the top.

    Fix the comp plans, the rest will take care of itself. Team was born because the Amway plan didn’t pay well.

  77. Speak Your Truth permalink
    November 15, 2011 8:07 am


    Thanks for sharing some of your story, it shows exactly why we are all here on many levels and why people are so convicted to informing people; of the whole truth. People wonder why others get passionate and downright angry at the terror done to millions of people through this so-called path to your financial freedom; all in the name of God and the almighty dollar. But yet it is twisted into some noble cause, under a religious guise, propaganda and is claimed; as a viable ‘business opportunity’ for every single human being on the planet.

    It has been my experience, that everything that represents ‘Freedom’ is an oxymoron when involved with building this MLM ‘business opportunity;’ it enslaves people and is a dictatorship, which is completely controlled by the top, right down to the information, you will read and listen to, the clothes you wear, the people you can and cannot talk to, and to how you will feel and act. It is confirmed by reading the P&P’s and is by no means any stretch of the imagination. To call anyone ‘independent’/ own your own business, is a flat out lie. All information and orders come through the They want all the tax breaks and benefits of a big corporation, but none of the laws or rules to have to follow.

    The defenders like to blame, the surviors and outsiders, which it is in your face obvious; for every designed flaw there is. It has been proven over and over again, it is designed for the largest majority, in most cases 99% to fail. And those at the Top know this beyond a shadow of doubt, but yet continue to lie through their teeth that everyone can and will ‘make it’, if they just follow the ‘proven, duplicatable system’, and do what the top does.

    From years of experience and clearing of the fog…there is no doubt in my mind it is nothing more than money being stolen from the bottom, by applying some ‘good lies’ and circulating to the Top. It is a disgrace and is damaging to all humanity, including those at the top, they become addicted to the greed. So on goes the battle….

  78. larry permalink
    December 7, 2011 12:54 pm

    even as far back as the days of zig ziglar, jerry devay? ( will check name ) amway, pyramid,
    mlm, etc…. whatever u wanna call it……..
    it all should all be legally outlawed, banned forever………….
    more later……..

  79. Devin permalink
    February 13, 2012 2:48 pm

    I keep being told by my upline that this isnt a scam. People make money and its guaranteed. My friend has a friend who we have seen speak at our tuesday night meetings that she is a perfect example why LIFE works. Except i saw the downfall. When team launched in 11-1-11 i had 600 pv which is 15% return. December was the same. Then january came. Well our pv was cut in half and it seemed like everybody was off subscription. Thats when i decided to cancel mine. I was behind in my reading and the cds about put me to sleep. Thank goodness im only about 300 into this or i would be mad. Im sure this works somehow. And i dont think that its a scam. But what bothers me is my brother is dropping out of school for this LIFE. He was getting his engineering degree in computers. Now he is going to be pushing a company i feel is unblblical and wrong. I feel it s a get rich scheam and people are being taken advantage of to get orrion and chris rich. You might get rich in the process but really it scars me that people i love are going down with this business and i fear the worst. Honestly i hope it works just so my brother who is 40000 in debt dosnt get screwed. But also i was glad i was smart. Saw the light and got off subscription. Honestly there has to be some way to sue these guys. Get them out of business so they cant screw anymore people over. Once i heard orrion was once apart of amway i knew right away this was just another branch off of it. Where else would he have gotten the idea? POP life. No. He put a spin on amway. And amway dose work it just takes a ton of work. This is the same way. Im just not willing to put in the work and quit my job for it. Ill go to school and work so i can eat.

  80. Vogel permalink
    February 13, 2012 7:10 pm

    Stories like that break my heart — about your brother that is; I admire and respect the choice you made to get out before getting in too deep. What a tragic waste for your brother to drop out of school (and go into debt for LIEf). It’s a squandered opportunity and a choice he will no doubt regret someday. I hope you can find a way to change his mind. My friends here can help you. They’ve all been where you and your brother are now.

    Thanks for joining the discussion.

    [Editor’s Note: corrected misspelling.]

  81. Freedomhaha permalink
    February 13, 2012 8:22 pm

    You did a great job getting out! However, this is far from a get rich quick scheme. That would imply that you can get rich fast. It is 100% a scam though. Very interesting to see the peoples PV drop like it did. Welcome to the site I hope you can spread the word because your honesty is very much appreciated.

    [Editor’s Note: corrected misspelling.]

  82. Speak Your Truth permalink
    February 13, 2012 9:43 pm


    What have they told you is “guaranteed?” I am glad you are done and saved yourself tens of thousands. How much did you make? That is some serious attrition rate at lightening speed I might add, the people didn’t even “stick” longer than 90 days?

    I hope you can help your brother stay in college, that is so sad, he has no idea the regret that is going to cause him. If you can show him the Lief Policies and Proceedures and Comp Plan Anaylsis on here that is where the “guarantee” comes in; guaranteed losses that is! Also read Hope he takes the P&P seriously; your brother could “lose” his income and whole team if you or any family member have a negative opinion or “embarrass” the team Lief in anyway. Did you know this? They stole our income without any notification or reason along with other big leaders on here.

    Do you give the P&P when someone gets started in Team Lief? Do they have 2 seperate applications and “business” you sign people up in, such as an application for Team and an application for Life? Does anyone read the P&P when they get started or have they trained you and others to ‘overlook’ it?

    Glad you have seen through the scam and I wish you the best with your brother.

  83. May 17, 2012 3:46 pm

    UPDATE SCAMWAY DEAN KOSAGE is a MOST WANTED DEADBEAT DAD for his Child Support Obligations to his 15 year old Child. Want to see evidence about this con-man who has gone missing. Eat your heart out:

    Looks like he can’t even pay 1,100 a month and has gone missing.

  84. May 18, 2012 8:56 am

    This comment is better served to be posted and discussed on my various posts about Dean Kosage.

  85. May 18, 2012 1:33 pm

    @Devin February 13, 2012 2:48 pm
    I could not help to think your statement reflects cognitive dissonance, a common mlm affliction. I will respond (in caps) for your benefit as well as for those who will come later.

    Devin said…
    I keep being told by my upline that this isnt a scam.
    People make money and its guaranteed.
    My friend has a friend who we have seen speak at our tuesday night meetings that she is a perfect example why LIFE works.
    Except i saw the downfall. When team launched in 11-1-11 i had 600 pv which is 15% return. December was the same. Then january came. Well our pv was cut in half and it seemed like everybody was off subscription.
    Thats when i decided to cancel mine. I was behind in my reading and the cds about put me to sleep.
    Thank goodness im only about 300 into this or i would be mad.
    Im sure this works somehow.
    And i dont think that its a scam.
    But what bothers me is my brother is dropping out of school for this LIFE.
    He was getting his engineering degree in computers. Now he is going to be pushing a company i feel is unblblical and wrong.
    I feel it s a get rich scheam and people are being taken advantage of to get orrion and chris rich.
    You might get rich in the process …
    …but really it scars me that people i love are going down with this business and i fear the worst.
    Honestly i hope it works just so my brother who is 40000 in debt dosnt get screwed.
    But also i was glad i was smart. Saw the light and got off subscription.
    Honestly there has to be some way to sue these guys. Get them out of business so they cant screw anymore people over.
    Once i heard orrion was once apart of amway i knew right away this was just another branch off of it.
    Where else would he have gotten the idea? POP life. No. He put a spin on amway. And amway dose work it just takes a ton of work.
    This is the same way.


    Im just not willing to put in the work and quit my job for it.
    Ill go to school and work so i can eat.

  86. mike permalink
    August 4, 2012 4:44 am

    Thank You! This web site provides a great service. Someone at my church has been approaching me about Team/LIFE for a couple of months. I was willing to listen and even to purchase one of Woodward’s books. I hold this person in high regard as someone of good moral character, but something about the whole T/L concept never felt right. I had questions, but the responses were vague. I was told that it will all become clear “when” I attend my first meeting.

    I was irked by the presumption of my future involvement, and I resented being approached at church on a matter of personal business. Because of this person’s enthusiasm, and his annoyed response to even the simplest inquiry, I sensed that any honest, well intended scrutiny on my part would be received as a personal attack rooted in my own worldly cynicism. This makes for an awkward situation in the context of church fellowship. I’ve gone along in the dialogue, nodding politely, not committing to TEAM, but at the same time not diving in with the hard questions.

    The information on this web site, including the experiences of others, has given me the questions to ask and the assurance to know that the questions are appropriate indeed. Now I feel that I need to help this perosn and see if I can gently get him to see the truth and not get taken deeper into this mess.

  87. August 5, 2012 6:52 pm

    @Mike – I’m glad the information has proven useful. Post back when you’ve had a chance to ask your questions to the TEAM/LIFE member.

  88. Mark permalink
    August 7, 2012 6:03 am

    My wife has 5 brothers. 4 of them, along with my parents-in-law, and her grandma are full blown lifers. It’s so sad seeing them and talking to them. They keep saying it’s a “win-win”, because even if they lose money (which they are hand over foot), they’re becoming better people. I don’t see the point of paying for overpriced books when you can get a lot of them much cheaper on amazon, or in some cases free at the library. And the cds? Who on earth told this guy orrin and his followers they were qualified to teach people all about life, marriage, family, and everything else. My one brother in law hasn’t had a working hot water heater for months! Yet he can keep paying 50 bucks for 4 new cds, over a 100 dollars PER TICKET to their out of state quarterly convention. His wife complained that she never sees him, and when he is home he’s outside working with headphones on. It makes me sick. My parents in law “dream-build” and apparently that means looking at 2.5 million dollar homes on lake michigan. My mother in law said my job is a pyramid scheme; team is a proven system, and one brother in law said it’s so easy to promote in team. If they don’t make money, it’s not team’s fault. It’s because they didn’t try hard enough. Everything I just wrote is only the tip of the iceberg too. They’ve been in for over a year! They keep saying, “ya the first year is the hardest”. You think? Seems to me it would be the easiest, because once I burned through all of my family and friends trying to get them to sell overpriced books and cds, who’s left? Should I start going door to door and cold calling? Give me a break. I’d quit in a heartbeat. Guess that’s why they say the only way you will lose is if you quit. This whole team thing makes me sick. Middle to lower class people flat out burning through money so these fork-tongued idiots who spin a good tune can have bigger houses and boats. Wake up people!!!!!!!!!!

  89. Freedomhaha permalink
    August 7, 2012 5:15 pm

    Mark- Simply, Amen brother. Keep fighting the good fight and do whatever you can to get them on this blog!

  90. Brent Hansen permalink
    August 8, 2012 2:06 am

    Most MLM compensation plans are written with failure by design. And although corporations may be set up with a pyramid structure as well, at least you are able to earn a living wage for being involved. Its ironic how people are indoctrinated to speak badly of jobs and companies yet that is exactly where people are earning their money to pay for the ridiculous “leadership materials”.

    I love and believe the principles taught, they just simply do not apply in the MLM arena, what is taught, and the model, are in direct contradiction with each other.

  91. Mark permalink
    August 8, 2012 7:26 am

    what’s crazy is I’m a state corrections officer. It’s not like I’m working for some advertising company with a desk job. Since my supervisors make more than me, it’s a “pyramid structure” or some other nonsense. I’m pretty sure Orrin makes more than they do. Those cds flat out brainwash them. My father in law is a pastor at a local church, and I was very surprised he got duped. My brother in law and his wife are missionaries, and they itroduced the whole family to team. That’s when they were still selling 35 dollar a bottle juice. My brother in law said it didn’t taste too bad if you watered it down. Team catches good people looking for something positive, and just drains them and their time/money. I did do some research on that mind control/cult book, and plan on giving my father in law a copy for christmas. I doubt that will change anything, but here’s hoping.

  92. Speak Your Truth permalink
    August 8, 2012 8:33 am


    You are so on to them and are right their minds are controlled…You are seem very smart. Hang in there! Man, I too feel empathy for you and your situation. And the water heater situation is too sad. It must be even tougher being that outnumbered, especially with the rhetoric and how they are taught to shut out any legitimate or common sense responses. It has to be very frustrating for you to have to sit back and listen to that senseless rhetoric (i.e. it’s a win-win).

    What part of that win-win equation, does losing money hand over fist apply?
    They are “taught” to “handle all objections” with “it takes time to make money”..”you have to invest in yourself and business 1st” or”how many business make money in their 1st year”… “I don’t care if I ever make a dime, I am becoming a better person” and on and on.
    The longer they are in the more cd’s and seminars they attend the more they learn to shut out any reasonable legitimate questions. I am with webelieved; arm yourself and read everything you can on cults.

    If you haven’t already I would also watch the Lief Comp Video’s and read the P&P’s (take to an attorney then share it with them 🙂 ) you can print it from on here it is a real eye opener and will give you the truth to respond with. You could point out the lies they are being told (nicely of course) any resistance pushes them deeper against you. Undue influence or Mind control is a powerful thing.

    I wonder if you ask them how close or how long and how much money they are willing to lose to get and maintain a solid 300 people on system or the odds of them ever making it!!
    They ‘teach’ in theoretical and “what if” terms as if anyone will calling it “proven” and not That only gets them to ‘help’ themselves and 14 others pay for their autoship, while the other 285 continue to LOSE!

    Thanks for sharing and know Amthrax and the rest of the good people on here will support you all they can and let us know if we can help in any other way! But stick to your guns, literally and figuratively.. haha.

  93. Mark permalink
    August 8, 2012 8:39 am

    lol. I really appreciate the comments and support guys. I keep talking to my wife about it but she’s sick of it and doesn’t like being “stuck in the middle”. I guess some of us are just more easily influenced than others, and common sense doesn’t always kick in when it’s supposed to.

  94. Speak Your Truth permalink
    August 8, 2012 8:41 am

    Oops The second to last paragrahp is very confusing sorry bout that. 🙂

    It takes 300 people ‘remaining on system’ to even pay for 15 measly autoships! Here is the kicker…how many do they think they and others have to churn through and put in to get 300 consistant system counts to pay for a measly $50 autoship for those 15 people; while the other 285 continue to lose and go broke?

    I will tell you it is A LOT…it takes thousands to get 300 on system to stick! It can be done but you will give up your entire life and end up regretting it.

  95. Mike Feuerstein permalink
    November 28, 2012 5:21 pm

    “concerned family member ” – I hope you posted that video to show how LAME it was, NOT to lend any credibility to these “smoke and mirrors” carpet-baggers. The Robotic voice of “Sis” was certainly accurate for a “New Believer”. It reminds me of my original sponsor in Amway, who never quite got the hang of making any of the “system” answers sound natural and unrehearsed. More Creepy than amusing, to me, anyway!

  96. Recruited_Researched_Repulsed permalink
    December 20, 2012 12:24 pm

    Click to access 522418-12585.pdf

    that’s a must read.

  97. Freedomhaha permalink
    December 20, 2012 3:17 pm

    R,R,R- You win the award for the best handle on here yet.

  98. December 21, 2012 6:43 am

    Tragedy is the report is accumulating dust @ FTC (if they can find it) deficient of serious enforcement.

  99. switch permalink
    December 21, 2012 7:05 am

    KA-BOOM goes the dynamite!

  100. Garima permalink
    December 28, 2012 8:29 am

    hello everybody…
    I just found out many new people have joined this blog and i actually spared some time to go through…not to forget the link about ftc
    well being a scientist i really must mention how great royalty income feels, and if one gets it from more than one source it is a cherry on the cake!! The reason why i mentioned this is because i realised that earned income is actually the worst type of income because it taxed so much, plus once you get it once a week or month you have to work hard to get it again!! Dont we all love a holiday now and then? When you start getting royalty, well life becomes a big holiday!! (check this link )
    Having said that, you see I am not one of those who gives up soon…years of science education has taught me that. Also, I am a shrewd judge of people so I usually come to know when and who is cheating on me…this cheating business that all of you are raving about has happened to me too…but I knew how to stay clear of it…and well yes i succeded and now there is no looking back. Amway does not force anybody for anything at all…and heck!!! dont we face corruption in everyday life in our country?? Do we say that the system is useless?? NO we dont do that we only say it is that particular leader who is at fault!! I have great leaders…so I will never back off!!
    Like I said earlier also other peoples’ comments do not hinder my paycheques and thats what matters.

  101. December 28, 2012 10:43 am

    Very funny. You are a real jester. Apparently the same is said by the head of La Cosa Nostra (or some Capo) of their pelf.

    I was hoping the next drive-by MLMer will not sound like a shallow brook but I am wrong again. Darn.

  102. December 28, 2012 10:48 am

    I meant noisy like a shallow brook.

  103. January 3, 2013 6:41 am

    What for? That site is dumber than a stump! It does not allow comments, rebuttals, etc. from thinking people…why? As it is it’s perfect for TEAMmunists, MLMmunists & throw in N. Koreans and the like. So no I won’t check it out!

  104. Shankar permalink
    March 4, 2013 3:33 am


    You mentioned that you are working with ISRO. You are probably selling your Amway products like Nutrilite shit to co-scientists. This is the reason why the scientists are still not able to advance in space research compared to NASA. Either stop selling Amway products or get out from ISRO. By the way r u working for ISI to stop India achieving great heights in space research.

  105. freedomhaha permalink
    March 4, 2013 9:57 am

    Garima- I will start taking that site somewhat seriously when they allow for comments to be posted like they are allowed here.

  106. Garima permalink
    March 5, 2013 1:06 am

    @Shankar hahaha I can really laugh out aloud at your narrow thinking…what do you do for a living by the way???

  107. Melanie Morgan permalink
    March 5, 2013 10:14 am

    Seems pretty obvious to me there are 2 different “Garima”(s) on this site, hmm..must have liked the name and it was an easy pick.

  108. contuls permalink
    April 29, 2013 6:07 pm

    I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again… I really shouldn’t be wasting any time on these blogs, as I’ve already wasted many hours having gone through 3 Amway meetings. Howeverthis blog too is a good read, and I’m still coming out ahead financially and timewise by never having gotten involved in Amway in the first place…
    It is VERY eerie, and creepy how they rile up people in their meetings, telling you all the great things you want to hear (eg. how much money you can make, how low risk it is), but leaving out all the of important things (training materials cost money, meetings cost money, you need to work 20 hours a week to attend and host your own meetings, how you need to sucker in multiple downlines “crowns”/breadth/multiple downlines beneath you and “legs”/depth/downlines’ downlines just to make any decent amount of money and just how much time it takes to do all of that). I did NOT want to be associated with these people! It was clear that they mostly cared about you being their downline and giving them your money!

    “”If you think Amway is a big scam….a scam that has lasted for over 50 years ought to have something in it.””
    McDonalds has been around for over 70 years. That doesn’t mean people should buy their products often, if at all.

  109. Freedomhaha permalink
    April 30, 2013 8:27 am

    Contuls- Can you expand on what role this blog had on your decision to not join Amway?

  110. May 1, 2013 6:36 am

    @contuls Said,

    “I’m still coming out ahead financially and timewise by never having gotten involved in Amway in the first place…”

    Your BS antenna works marvelously! Keep it up and spread it to others lest they fall into this MLM scourge.

  111. sony permalink
    June 10, 2013 11:56 pm


    Stop your utter nonsense claiming all MLMs are scams. Just because you don’t like doesn’t mean it is a scam. There are many people who think Walmart business is immoral. Does that mean it is a scam? You start an industry whrere 95% succeed and then may be I will join you

  112. sony permalink
    June 11, 2013 12:00 am


    I think you need to start taking Nutrilite so that your brain can start working properly

  113. Garima permalink
    June 13, 2013 10:31 pm

    @ sony
    thanks a lot!! way to go!!! i really think they need Nutrilite !!

  114. Melanie Morgan permalink
    June 13, 2013 11:29 pm

    What does Walmart have to do with MLM and scams?

    You can go work for any real business industry, there you will find 100% succeed! 100% will work and then 100% get paid, like clock work, you can count on it! Simple as that. There are laws that proctect and ensure it, also they have checks and balaces in place…and what is really cool is you don’t have to pay to work for them or work for 3-5 years to hopefully, maybe, someday begin to make a profit and you don’t have to recruit, and replace, then recruit as nd replace….recruit and well you know. 🙂

    if you don’t work you don’t get paid and probably be fired, at least if you worked for me. 🙂

  115. Helloeeze permalink
    June 26, 2013 7:14 pm

    I went to a meeting last night for the first time I refuse to go along with any of it. I want to try to talk my friend out of wasting her money. I was handed a Income Disclosure Statement. It says basically only the top 2% make any money. My question is: How many Life Coaches, how many Sr. Coordinators or even Student 4,000s are there? If I had that number, I think it would be persuasive argument to my friend against joining this group. I would like to use Life’s own document to make this argument.

    I was told 20,000 people were in Columbus, Ohio at some meeting. I can’t believe there are so many gullible people out there. Maybe the tapes are good. I don’t know.

    [Editor’s note: This comment is better discussed on the LIFE IDS post. Please direct your responses to @Helloeeze there]

  116. Girlfriend permalink
    July 2, 2013 8:30 pm

    My boyfriend of 3 months is 6 months into LIFE. I didn’t know that when we first started dating, but when I found out I told him my objections. Friends of mine had been involved with TEAM, so I was already familiar with what was involved. He is a really good boyfriend, so I decided that I could accept his involvement if I made my objections clear and refused to be involved with any LIFE events. But LIFE has still caused tension. We have talked about it several times, and he asked if I would meet with members of his up line, so they could address my concerns. I said I would, and I would like to know from this forum what I should expect, so I can prepare for this meeting. Thank you in advance for your help.

    [Editor’s note: @Girlfriend – read the latest posts on this site, along with the IDS Analysis, for a list of questions to ask]

  117. Mark permalink
    July 3, 2013 8:43 am

    I wouldn’t meet with his upline. That’s a terrible idea. It’s not like they would agree with any of your concerns. Meet with a pastor not familiar with team. His upline would paint a pretty picture and try to deceive you the way your boyfriend has.

  118. Vogel permalink
    July 3, 2013 8:58 am

    I strongly agree with Mark. It’s a bad idea. His uplines have no business trying to insert themselves into your relationship. Their only goal will be to deceive and manipulate you; it’s the only skill they have, and even at that, they are only marginally proficient.

    If you made your feelings clear already and the BF is still pushing you to cozy up to his cult overseers, then he is being disrespectful and selfish. Be firm…just say no (actually “F NO!!!” would be my choice of words).

    Personally, I think you’re wasting your time with this guy. He’s too too blind to see the truth; don’t let him take you off the edge of the cliff with him. He’s a fool and you’ll have to wear the pants in the relationship until such time that he gets his act together (be prepared…he may never do so).

  119. Melanie Morgan permalink
    July 3, 2013 7:43 pm


    I too agree with Mark & Vogel.

    Beware his upine is VERY well “trained” to “handle your objections” that IS the reason he/she (will most likely bring his wife or women to relate to you)… wants you to meet with them! It is the standard operating procedure… get the experienced “upline” involved ! They teach them & have a cd just for handling every objection, and itwill try and manipulate you .

    Count on his upline “posturing” you ( guilt, shame & manipulation)….pretending or show conviction.. they are confident and “don’t need you” or shame you by telling you, you are holding your boyfriend back! They use a stop thinking technique ( more manipulation) ir the standard answers to your every objection, that they know will distract from your question, they do this to avoid answering them!

    I would wager my bottom dollar, that your boyfriend has already told his “upline” how you feel, and your not interested and his upline suggested you get with them, so here is my biggest warning:

    His upline’s whole goal, will be to get you a TICKET to the next seminar or meeting, watch how intense the pressure becomes (you will think he is so convicted & excited!) because they all know if they can get you to a seminar, then they ‘got-you’, trust me the group pressure and play on your emotions is more than almost anyone can resist! I rarely ever saw anyone say “NO” after that, they know this works like a charm!

    Everyone gives the same objections, you will see how quick your objections get handled because they already know them! For every one they will point to a ‘story’ of someone just like your situatiion (they want to lower your guard) who “over-came” and became a “success!” Be prepared for the guilt trips on how you are holding your boyfriend back from “his goals & dreams,”

    For example: So &so (big rich leader) wife/girlfriend wasn’t “on board” either, but once she seen she could get free from her job, be a stay at home mom, ( whatever your boyfriend told them you want the most) …and “was supportive” of her mate, and got to a “seminar” their relationship got tighter, then her mates busy-i-ness exploded and they got “finacially free” living their dreams now!

    Ask why so many big leaders left if it was that good, and there was so much money to be made? Ask why Orrins “mentor & Pastor” for years” has nothing to do with them,or
    why some PC, Triple 100’s, many Round Table members members (the ones who are makink so much money from their system) who left and want nothing to do with them! why those still in that teach and were such a “success”, went bankrupt? What about a PC
    (Guazzardo) supposedly a Huge success, the PC’s.. who are supposed to have the most “money” would teach finances and defaulted on a 1.3 million dollar note? Ask him to explain the comp plan and why the mass majority never make a profit, why so many have and do quit? (Many sources provide these facts, including this site).

    Remember they have a convining answer for Everything…( and might work on the uninformed) so prepare find the facts. They only repeat what they were told, but look at the facts and don’t let them distract or your questions go unanswered..don’t let them off the hook! Good luck! 🙂

  120. Melanie Morgan permalink
    July 3, 2013 7:58 pm

    Happy independence day to all!! 🙂

  121. Ron Day permalink
    July 16, 2013 3:22 pm

    Just ran across this site, and honestly, it’s kinda hard to navigate around. Just thought I’d pop in and say how hard it is to track down some old business associates and find out what “really” happened to them.

    Melanie, not only do I recognize your name, but we have shared the same stages multiple times. When my business was at it’s largest, I was well over a turbo 500 (not a recognized level, but you get the picture). I have won the top gun award multiple times (seems like forever ago) and I am pretty sure we have introduced each other at major functions before.

    A few years back my team was taken and given to an upline, never to return… but they did say I could continue to build the business if I wanted to start over. This happened with NO warning, no phone calls, nothing. Just a nice surprise when I did not receive a paycheck one month. After a month, I finally got Rob Hallstrand to send me a generic email reminding me that the team reserved the right to terminate any business, and send me a PDF of the Director’s agreement, that was signed years prior at a go diamond weekend. Apparently taking time away from the business to save my marriage was grounds enough to terminate my business. They did, however, allow me to keep my mona-vie business, but what good is that without a team?

    I have often wondered from time to time what happened to some of the people I used to know and see on stage. Some of the people I still have tapes of. It sure would be great to get the other side of the story. I am not so sure anymore that all these people were just “quitters”, as I was led to believe. I am sure my old team thinks the same about me…. I’m just a quitter, or I just gave up, or whatever else they decided to tell them.

    The worst part of it all, is that at one point in my life, I trusted these people. Thought they cared. Thought they were honest. Thought they were my friends. Who [k]new.

    [Editor’s note: Read the Primer, LIFE IDS analysis, and Ex-TEAM reader stories (links at top of the site) for the most up-to-date comments. I do agree that things could be better organized.]

  122. noteam permalink
    July 16, 2013 7:33 pm

    Ron Day – great to hear from you!!!! I still have a couple of your cassette. I remember you very well. You were one of the largest leaders in Team early on. So glad to hear to realized how dishonest this crew is. Thank you for sharing your story about your stolen groups. I bet there are hundreds of such stories. And now that a few are starting to come out, it paves the way for more of them.

  123. Melanie Morgan permalink
    July 16, 2013 11:15 pm

    Ron Day-

    Awesome to hear from you! Sorry I don’t remember was Bill your upline? I would love to talk live, sure we would have a lot to catch up on. If there is a chance of that let me know, I could give you my private number. I am so sorry bout your experience though, but I guess you are famous since they named the “Ron Day” Rule after you, sorry couldn’t resist. :),

    I know that really isn’t funny but tragedy + time = humor, right? lol.

    You seriously have a copy of the contract that was signed at the go diamond?..Great. were you at that go – diamond when they forced to sign, couldn’t read or get a copy? You said it was the “directors contract” that is the life one.

    Wasn’t that nice of them to LET you keep YOUR MV Business,? wow, seriously these guys are unbelievable! I am sure you would find much of what has been said here ” relatable” but prepare yourself & put the seat belt on for the flash back moments. lol.

    Seems like your story is very similar to our experience and so many others. Funny I don’t. Recall any “teaching” or cds or PC, EVER… share they could take others “independent business” away from them., Quite the contrary! Just think of what the attrition rate would be if they were honest and transparent with that one?!

    So much for the passive, residual, ongoing, willable, b- type,..” this . Will be the last thing you will ever have to get good at” “Independent” business, right. Looking forward to your contribution, thanks a bunch for sharing! 🙂

  124. Freedomhaha permalink
    July 17, 2013 10:22 am

    Ron Day- Even though I came and went in TEAM long after your name was expunged from its records I thank you for commenting! I look forward to what you have to share here as we work together to end this evil business.

  125. Ron Day permalink
    July 18, 2013 8:58 pm

    I don’t mind sharing what little information I have. I have long been over what has happened, and I’m not upset about any of it anymore either. I am very happy with where I am in life, and the people in it. But I do feel like things could definitely been handled very differently.

    If anyone wants to contact me, it shouldn’t be too hard to look me up on facebook. I’ve been remarried since the business, and my kids are older… but I’m still the same guy I’ve always been.

    … and the “Ron Day rule” ? This is the first I’ve heard of it! I guess I’m famous! I wonder what they told people I did? I wonder what they say I did or didn’t do? Was I a mass murderer? Did I paint an ugly untrue picture of the team anywhere? Was I negative about the people, or the products? Did I crossline? Did I have a falling out with my upline? What did I do? This is fascinating to me!

    I bet what they didn’t tell you was this: I was married to someone who had some very deep seated issues, and battled with depression, anxiety, and suicidal thoughts on a regular basis. Some one who had been verbally, physically, emotionally, and sexually abused as a youngster and a teenager. I bet they didn’t tell you that I stepped back from the business to put 100 percent of my effort into my family and marriage. I bet they didn’t tell you that when my marriage fell apart, not only was I crushed, but I was now a single father of two kids who were used to a stay at home mom in the house. Having a family member die is tough. Having one walk out is worse. But then again, if they told you any of that, then what they did just doesn’t sound so nice, now does it? I’m sure whatever they spun into peoples heads made complete sense… and if it didn’t, well at least THEY wouldn’t step back from building a network marketing business. Of course if they were in my shoes, they’d just go show the plan, because that fixes everything!

    My biggest issue to this day, is that the whole “build a B-type business / pipeline income / work now, play later / residual this or that” is the selling point to many people. The “be your own boss, own your own business” so you don’t have to answer to “a boss” or report to “a job” was what I put in that want circle. Instead, I got a new job, with new bosses, and a new office…. all disguising itself as something where I was in charge. Sure I made money… but it wasn’t me that decided to make it stop coming in.

    In a world that’s fair…. If I wanted to let this business take a back seat to other things in my life, so what? If my business falls apart, so what? If my downline have to pursue other mentors, so what? And if my income stops, because my team quits, well then I get what I deserve. If my income stops because my group up and left to go to another business, or another organization, well then I can live with that too. I was willing to accept that as a possibility. What I didn’t expect, was a boss saying “you’re fired.” What I didn’t expect, was to have to explain to people on my team, that I was no longer their upline. They didn’t want that, and neither did I. It was never my intention to walk out on my team. I never said one unkind word about the people that I thought cared more about me more than my own family. Matter of fact, deep down in my heart, I was so glad to have a business that I could work when I wanted to work it. To go full throttle, or just “hold my spot.” I was in charge of my effort, as well as my results, right? But to not even get one phone call from an upline to say “Hey!!! You won’t get paid if you’re not around.” or, “Hey!!! If you don’t work with your team, we will give it to someone who will….” To not even make one phone call to see how I am before going to this extreme…. Well, that’s just not ethical. And if it was, why did the guy they gave my team to pay me out of his own pocket to try to help me out for about six months? Because he knew. He knew that what happened was unethical, and to be honest, downright shady. Of course after about six months, I told him, I don’t want your money. I just couldn’t take it any more. I decided that I would rather risk foreclosure and bankruptcy than to just get by on his “pity money.”

    I, unlike most people did NOT want to do this for the rest of my life. I wanted to build it once, and move on with my life. I wanted to build the pipeline, and get paid to sleep. And if it falls apart, it falls apart. That’s no-ones decision but mine, right? But my business was taken, before it could fall apart… because that’s what “they” decided what was best for all those poor people in my team. Didn’t they have a system to go to? Didn’t they have upline leaders (Under me, mind you) to turn to? Didn’t they have functions to attend? Of course they did. Because I spent years training people to be leaders. Training them to go to the system. Training them to “replace themselves.” because that’s what I was taught was important. And I had downline leaders that had bigger businesses than me. I mean, isn’t that the goal from the start? To replace yourself? Because if you need to be there, then it’s an S-type business, not a B-type business. Isn’t this first night material here?

    Turns out, if you build a big business, develop leaders that are at bigger pin levels than you, point everyone to the system, and totally replace yourself…. You are not allowed to.

    All this talk about freedom this, and freedom that. If you aren’t at the tippy top, or buddy- buddy with the guys in charge…. you are still a slave.

    The devils best trick was convincing people he didn’t exist. Oh he’s out there. With a white shirt, a red tie, and a blue suit. I kinda wish they would have told me that the first night I seen this, but then again, why would they do that?

  126. Former Round Table permalink
    July 19, 2013 6:03 am

    Ron Day, thank you so much for sharing your story. It is more proof that Orrin Woodward, Chris Brady, Tim Marks, and their band of merry men are the lowest of low. They preach “integrity” but inside they are rotten through and through.

    The “Ron Day Rule” was instituted, if I remember correctly, to prevent anyone from building the business and continuing to collect money without continuing to participate. Sick, isn’t it? When they PROMISE that the “business” will provide residual income. To quote Chris Brady, “You only have to get good at one thing in your life.”

    My heart goes out to you and your family. We wish you the best!

  127. Ron Day permalink
    July 19, 2013 8:05 am

    Yup. wish they would have told me about the ron day rule before I started!
    I guess “the rules have changed”

    Anyway, I should probably mention that I was truly joking if anyone wants to quote me calling team members the devil, lol. I built some great friendships with a lot of great people. And there were plenty of down to earth, honest, upstanding people within that organization. Also, everyone makes mistakes. At least now with that rule in place, people won’t be misled into believing that a business can do something it won’t. My loss is their gain.

  128. Former Round Table permalink
    July 19, 2013 9:30 am

    Oh Ron, if only that were true. Unfortunately, the “Ron Day Rule” is NOT for public knowledge, but is only supposed to be known by the office staff and top leaders.

    The sad truth is that thousands of people are still deceived and deliberately lied to about the benefits of their involvement with this unscrupulous group of charlatans.

  129. melanie Morgan permalink
    July 19, 2013 12:00 pm


    I know Former Round Table is correct, I heard of the “rule” and honestly I think it was long AFTER they took our team, stopped paying us, WITHOUT any explanation, phone call or anything in writting! Sounding familiar? Wonder what Orrin would have done if Amway or his upline stopped paying him, took his team and did this too him?! Doesn’t take a genius and won’t even go into the lawsuits, (seems this is their way conflict resolution law over doing the right thing?) Christians way to silence truth and gag free speech?

    They bash Bosses and Corp. America to a level I have never seen such negative,, at least there their are laws to protect people from that tyranny in Corp. Some how those laws and channels don’t apply to their MLM . It is a shame all they have misrepresented, lies and false false hope and empty promises and what they have done to others.The evidence is mountainous.

    So, I heard of the rule but never knew what it meant until a few years ago and of course NOW they put it in their Policies , obviously to CTA, but don’t make it clear to the “followers”(they don’t call it the Ron Day Rule there of course!), it is as FRT said and not meant for the masses. You could read thier P&P at the link on right of this page.

    Not only do you NOT own anything, they are your boss ( even though the otherside of their mouth says differentl) they can take anyones business away for any reason, commenting on here, or if your family that lives with you speaks their (opposing) opinion, or embarrasses them..basically they can take “your” business at their discresion and they as far as I can tell don’t disclose (intentionaly) they pay out on the “team” side and you have to be “voted in” by your peers and PC ? ( conflict of interest at its finest!) Sad, really sad!!

    We all were mislead, lied to and they breached our trust and betrayed us and many other people, to the enth degree. And it is as you said; and oh, the irony; they hate bosses and jobs, but they are worse and mislead others to believe they are the solution to it?!

    Ron, thanks for your story, it does confirm and validate much and doesn’t matter what they pay lip service to, clearly the “business” is not what they lead others to believe. Ironic isn’t it that you needed the time to focus on your marriage and family and you “build you well before you are thirsty” as so many others, including us I became real ill and they strip all our efforts and “residual income”, astounding isn’t it?!

    I am convinced they are greedy, selfish and have never care about others, except others performing for them and will do anything, including unethical, immoral things to get what THEY want., it shows me they have no conscience, and their actions “speak so loudly, you can’t hear what they say” Their words are cheap and their promise are empty! Someday they will face their maker. They can’t justify it, the means never justifies the end.

    Thanks, for sharing.

  130. ItsaPauling permalink
    July 19, 2013 5:52 pm

    We can see ever more clearly as to why Bobby Dickie left these clowns.

  131. Girlfriend permalink
    October 21, 2013 10:42 am

    I wanted to follow up on my original post. Thank you everyone who responded. I appreciate your time. Boyfriend is on his way out of The Life Business. I would love to go into more detail about how and why, but I don’t want those details to reveal his identity and potentially get him in trouble. He still has a few people that he wants to remain friends with even though he admits that they won’t have time for him. He is very sweet and I am trying to be as delicate about my feelings without screaming, “They are liars and heretics who care nothing about being their brother’s keeper. If they had morals at all they would take the money they have and truly retire instead of stealing from other people’s savings by selling hopes and dreams.” Instead the game plan is to use extra money to pay off debt then put money into higher interest savings in order to save and make dreams come true in about 10 years. I hope others realize that this is a simple non toxic way to use your money to achieve goals instead lining the pockets of others. I know Boyfriend got a lot out of his relationships with Life members and they helped him through a difficult time, so I am trying to respect that and look at the future only instead of dwelling on the past.

  132. Mark permalink
    October 21, 2013 12:21 pm

    Be thankful he got out while he did. Most of my in laws are out, except for my brother in law and his wife. 3 plus years and going strong. My wife’s parents had all 5 of their kids this weekend cause they were gone out of state to their quarterly. Originally they planned on being missionaries and were supported for years by church members. Now that’s out of the pic and its team all the way. We rarely see them. Very sad

  133. Melanie Morgan permalink
    October 22, 2013 2:57 pm


    Thanks for sharing we celebrate your victory with you. I find it too sad that everyone fears their true identity. It is what every bully create, I understand completely and clearly for good reason, knowing their means of “conflict resolution”!

    Wish you the best, thanks for sharing! 🙂

    You are on your way, better things have yet to come! 🙂

  134. Geebz permalink
    January 12, 2014 11:38 am

    I guess you could say I’m a pragmatic guy. I understand there is a lot of emotion in this forum, but I think the most effective way to debunk Life is to dissect it and look at the business concept itself. In order to do that, we need to look at some history of how this thing morphed:

    It was a well kept secret for years that Dexter Yager, Bill Britt and other big pins in Amway derived 70-80 percent of their revenue from their BSM’s. I certainly had not clue when I was in the biz in the late 80’s, although ethics would dictate that such a fact should be disclosed from the get-go. Amway certainly didn’t want to lose Yager’s business on their end, so DeVos and Van Andel kept their mouths shut. If such a fact is disclosed up front and someone still wants to get in, well, that’s their choice, but there was no such disclosure.

    No wonder there. The BSM business is a pretty goofy concept. Buy and listen to tapes that tell you to buy and listen to tapes that tell you to buy and listen to tapes. No viable product, plain and simple. That’s where the Amway “cover” comes in. As long as the AMO’s were moving viable product out of Ada, there was a legal business, and no need for the kingpins to mention the pesky little fact that the “successful” folks in the biz were only making 20% of their income from actual product sales (hey, why bother the newbies with the facts, right?). You see, I have no problem with MLM as long as the facts are presented up front, and generated income comes from product sales. I have seen MLM’s that operate on this principle, and some that don’t. Sad that Amway falls under the latter.

    So, on to Orrin, Chris and company.who see Yager’s model and decide to get in on some of this action. After all, if Dex can make millions on BSM’s, why can’t they? TIF is born, aligns with Amway, and goes hog wild in the tool business, only they did something (and if anyone knows what it was, please enlighten me) to either tick off or really spooks the folks in Ada. Don’t know what it was, but it must have been more blatant than anything Dexter ever did, because the corporation has let him get away with his massive BSM for years.

    Meanwhile, here comes the late 90’s, and the explosion of the internet amont the masses. The BSM income ratio is no secret anymore. Dateline NBC report blows the BSM cover off, and anyone with a computer, even the newbies, can get the numbers. One would think that would be the end of BSM’s, but go figure.

    So back to Orrin and Chris. They manage to get themselves kicked out of Amway because the corporation probably doesn’t want whatever they’re engaged them to ding them legally. No problem….Orrin and Chris just need another company to be the cover for the tool biz. Enter Monavie. Sell a little juice on the surface while keeping the BSM machine in high gear. But here’s the $64,000 question – one that I’m sure the likes of Yager and Britt wracked their brans over for years….how could one maintain a tool business without the need of a separate company or product to cover it? Hmmm……

    Well, Orrin and Chris finally pegged it, and it was INGENIOUS! Turn the tool business into a business in and of itself with an angle….a “motivational coaching” business. Since a big component of all the Yager/Britt tapes offered “life advice” (if you want to call it that), make that the “viable product”. VOILA – the tool and product business finally became one in the same. I’ll bet Dex was kicking his own butt that he didn’t come up with it first!

    But would it work? Could they actually convince people that a business of support media that perpetuates itself as its primary product really fly? Well, I guess they somehow convinced 50,000 people into thinking so, but 50,000 is a pretty low number in the grand scheme of things. Most folks, I think, are smart enough to look at their business model and say “huh?” A product that is designed to sell more if itself, with no other useful purpose? Apparently, you can make it fly to some people if you say the product is “life coaching”. But who is this Orrin Woodward and Chris Brady? Are they experts? In what? According to who? What makes their “advice” worth money? These are the questions a pragmatic person asks. I still don’t understand how they got this “Grand Pooba” designation (or whatever the hell they call it). Somebody please tell me what makes these guys so great.

    Here’s my take. People have a natural need to be part of some kind of collective. We see it all around us, from sports fans to followers of talk radio pundits, and more. Everybody wants to be on the “winning team”, and surrounded by mobs of other people who agree with their world view. I don’t think it’s a money thing. We all crave social acceptance on some level, and sadly, some people out there will even pay someone to accept them. Life, to me, appears to be nothing more than a big social club, and a very expensive one at that. The business aspect of it just doesn’t add up, any more than Yager’s BSM business. It’s simply not logical.

    I’m no opponent of positive thinking – quite the opposite, but let’s be honest….you can find support materials for personal development almost anywhere, from your local library to your local bookstore, from any viewpoint you choose. You can form a discussion group of like-minded people on your own at no cost. What, in reality, makes this Life business so special? IMO, once you understand the history of how Life came about and how the business philosophy was formed, you understand why Mr. Spock is tilting his head at this one.

  135. Vogel permalink
    January 12, 2014 2:15 pm

    Geebz said: “You see, I have no problem with MLM as long as the facts are presented up front, and generated income comes from product sales.”

    But they don’t. Like I asked before, when in the history of MLM has it ever happened? MLMs and transparency go together about as well as peanuts and chewing gum. With full disclosure, how can an MLM continue to exist? If any of these companies had the remotest inclination to be transparent, they wouldn’t have chosen the MLM business model. The MLM model is chosen precisely to facilitate deception.

    “Well, Orrin and Chris finally pegged it, and it was INGENIOUS! Turn the tool business into a business in and of itself with an angle….a “motivational coaching” business.”

    I don’t think that the LIEf business model is even remotely ingenious. Quite the opposite; it seems like one of the dumbest most threadbare ideas in the history of MLM, and that’s saying a lot. The word “devious”, rather than ingenious, would be more apropos.

    “Well, I guess they somehow convinced 50,000 people into thinking so…”

    Huh? 50,000 seems like a whopping exaggeration. I don’t think they’ve even convinced 500 people.

    Don’t get me wrong, I agree with much of what you say. I’m just pointing out a few things that probably shouldn’t be taken for granted.

  136. SpaceHamster permalink
    January 12, 2014 11:04 pm

    Geebz: “Here’s my take. People have a natural need to be part of some kind of collective. We see it all around us, from sports fans to followers of talk radio pundits, and more. Everybody wants to be on the “winning team”, and surrounded by mobs of other people who agree with their world view. I don’t think it’s a money thing. We all crave social acceptance on some level, and sadly, some people out there will even pay someone to accept them. Life, to me, appears to be nothing more than a big social club, and a very expensive one at that. The business aspect of it just doesn’t add up, any more than Yager’s BSM business. It’s simply not logical.”

    In my case I can attest to this. All the time during my brief six weeks (it’s been about a year since I signed up, time flies) I never saw it as a money making avenue. I was in it for the self help and social interaction. A concerned brother did some research then presented me this website and others. Through this a closed door was opened and have gotten closer to and have learned much about my brothers since then. In a sense I got what I wanted, with this I had nothing left motivating me to stick with LIFE.

  137. Melanie Morgan permalink
    January 13, 2014 8:38 am


    I too agree with much of what you say but hardly believe these guys “pegged it” or they are INGENIOUS. They Did NOT come up with team approach ( LONG STORY but was the reason for the growth that everyone is convinced they “pegged it” and had all the others thinking they had the “secret”… These guys have done nothing new. They have copied and stolen everything… if that is what constitutes “ingenious” well, then they are amazingly ingenious.

    The “system” is no different than what Dexter did,…..simply cd’s books, and seminars… and is exactly what these guys copied and took from Dexter..they did nothing different and paid attorneys to, it fits the “MLM model”….nothing new…it is hardly revolutionary,. They just tweaked it. They simply have come up with different names like “life coaching” (again Nothing NEW or ingenious about that) many companies been using that for decades and have created companies around that term.

    The “life coaching” system was/has ALWAYS been a separate MLM just not recognized or made into a separate MLM ‘legally’… (they just paid attorneys to write up contracts) and was always hidden behind the “product” companies.

    Dex already thought of it, and had been operating it as an MLM but could do what he wanted, why would he ever want to break from Amway?! He has what he has because of them…he had the best of both worlds…making million dollars bonuses from Amway along with the internal consumption volume, by having the largest organization in Amway! MONEY. money and more money…. is why he wouldn’t, Amway let him have his way, why change that.. many times over he made multimillions that he was getting from his “life coaching” MLM “system.”

    It can’t be compared to real business, they don’t operate by the same rules and regulations, or every sense of operating…. far from it and only want to use that when it benefits them, otherwise they want to be “different” and criticize corporate business every chance they get.

    They copy everyone….and take bits and pieces from everyone else, then claim and convince others it was their ideas…not impressive to me.

  138. Melanie Morgan permalink
    January 13, 2014 8:55 am

    Bottom line,,,, they don’t have FULL and Accurate Disclosure and the ONLY reason they have any is because of brave whistle blowers, people like those behind the petition, websites etc… who have gone up against them, and some change requirements have been forced, but plain and simple exposure of truth, otherwise they would not have any disclosures and still be hiding every bit they could.

    Why do you think they SUE people, gag, and then get others to whitewash…. and then the “disclosure” of those final rulings on the lawsuits never make it publically!!

  139. Melanie Morgan permalink
    January 13, 2014 8:58 am

    Don’t forget the manipulation of google rankings to attempt to hide information that exposes them, and the thousands of dollars they spend on “reputation management!”

  140. Mark permalink
    January 14, 2014 5:58 am

    My sister in law just made a facebook profile and of course her first profile pic is a team pic. They’re at their quarterly all sitting there in their nice clothes holding notepads ready to write down everything the “leaders” say. It’s sad but at the same time oh well. It’s their life and if they wanna spend it doing team more power to them lol

  141. Geebz permalink
    January 14, 2014 1:32 pm

    I can’t speak to all MLM’s as a whole, but some of the product-based ones (like Melaleuca, with which I was involved for a time) was much more appealing to me than Dexter Yager’s Amway, mainly because I didn’t have to put up with the textbook GOP B.S. and all the religious dogma. At least when I was in Melaleuca, they seemed to focus much more on product, and I was never coerced to buy tapes or go to seminars unless I wanted to. And the times I actually DID use their tools or go to their meetings, the focus was on the products and not trying to transform me into a good little Fundamentalist Republican.

    The first Yager function I went to should have been the red flag. I couldn’t believe this short old guy (Dex) was standing on a stage lecturing couples about their sex lives. And let’s not even get into the rampant homophobia that came from those seminars, tapes and books. Not only did I find it quite distasteful, but again, what the hell does that have to do with selling soap and shoe polish???

  142. Vogel permalink
    January 15, 2014 9:44 am

    Geebz said: “I can’t speak to all MLM’s as a whole, but some of the product-based ones (like Melaleuca, with which I was involved for a time) was much more appealing to me than Dexter Yager’s Amway, mainly because I didn’t have to put up with the textbook GOP B.S. and all the religious dogma.”

    Melaleuca!!! Holy $%&! That’s one of the worst MLMs ever! As for the GOP BS, did you look at the money trail from Melaleuca owner Frank Vandersloot to the GOP. among the biggest donor in the country. It’s self-serving arrogant pieces of dung like Vandersloot that make MLM such a pernicious problem. Vandersloot also poured tons of money into hompophobic persecution campaigns and defending pedophile Boy scout leaders.

    This is the kind of thing that small time hustlers like Orrin can only dream about.

  143. February 26, 2014 9:16 pm

    I’m a long time reader and x lieF er, found this RT couple living the dream! Check out the ceo, ha! Must of got tired of p**ing his pants. Guess they couldn’t wait to hit a million.

  144. February 27, 2014 10:32 am

    He could still be doing LIFE and running his business at the same time.

  145. February 27, 2014 2:31 pm

    Good point… Twitter account inactive since 2012. Thought I heard several times from Stage that they were “job optional”. Keep up the great work here. I’m almost dug out of my cc debt from our time in this mess.

  146. noteam permalink
    February 28, 2014 3:10 am

    Very interesting – So Doug Stroh is in the windshield business. I also noticed several familiar names on the staff page (Nik Palomaki, Tim Curry, etc). I wonder if this is another way of taking advantage of people. Is he possibly selling overpriced franchises to leaders in his downline. Not accusing, but it sure sounds like something Orrin’s type of people would do.

  147. Kate permalink
    May 2, 2014 4:34 pm

    Do you know any facts or links to fact sheets about WFG Canada? I had never heard of it until today when a friend told us he’s signing up. My husband and I know it’s an MLM and we hate MLMs, but it’s going to take some hard numbers to convince our friend. I’ve done lots of research, but it’s only been a few hours, so wondering if you can save me some time if you already know where to look. Thanks! I love your site. I’ve been reading it for years ever since some friends tried unsuccessfully to get us to join Monavie. Sadly, they don’t have time to be real friends anymore. I can’t believe it, but it’s been five years and they are still in LIFE/TEAM or whatever it is.

  148. May 2, 2014 7:24 pm

    @Kate – Found this on Wikipedia which goes into the history of the company:

    Sounds like an MLM for the financial services and insurance marketplaces. What has your friend been “promised” or teased by joining WFG Canada? What does he think it will provide him?

  149. FeistyFemalien permalink
    August 3, 2014 2:33 pm

    As someone who grew up with the Amway business I can give you a child’s view into adult perspective. My sister and I were severely neglected as children while our parents chased after their dream, if we complained we were made to feel bad for our needs at the time because those needs would be met later in abundance. We were promised elaborate vacations, or even ONE vacation…nothing. We watched as our parents buried themselves into thousands of dollars of debts which they never regained. My parents having served 15 years together in the military both got out (sacrificing their retirement) at the advice of their upline so they wouldn’t lose crucial contacts…my sister and I were left alone to take care of each other as we had zero time to spend with our parents, we were selfish in our requests otherwise.

    I watched as the emerald upline had his business taken from him, reasons cited being that he just wasn’t working it hard enough…the part of his organization that followed him were abandoned by “leadership” and the losses never recouped.

    After I moved out of the house I tried to get my mom (parents got divorced) out of the business, that Amway/WWDB/Quixtar was all the same under a different name. It took A LOT of convincing and showing that the tools were where these big shots were making their money, but the epiphany for my mother finally came.

    It has been 25 years since my mothers first encounter…and she has just now gotten out of the debt from being an amazing steward attending ALL of the functions for 15 solid years. 10 years just digging out of debt, regretting the loss of her military retirement, lost countless amounts of friends and relationships.

    I hate this business…it ruins families, friendships, and finances.

  150. August 3, 2014 9:15 pm

    @FeistyFemalien – thank you for sharing your story. I have not read nor received many comments or stories from those growing up in MLM households. The stories children and former children can share from their experiences with MLM-involved parents. It’s good to see that your mother has broken free. I would imagine she carries a lot of guilt from her involvement. Have her check out the resources from the Freedom of Mind website and let her know that there are others out there who can provide support.

  151. Melanie Morgan permalink
    August 4, 2014 8:07 am


    Thank you for sharing your story! It is really hard to read, and I am sure there is a lot of these that are untold. It is the worst regret for most of us who drug our children through that garbage. This ought to be a TOP post. Thanks for your courage, I am glad your mom is out, but sadly not before it ruined so much!

  152. Chris permalink
    January 9, 2015 4:00 am

    I am re-living (why, I have no idea) my Quixtar days and have been very grateful for the information provided on this site. I thank my lucky stars I got out before my debt or sanity got any worse. But am hoping someone might be able to help me with a question.

    I have been trying to trace back my upline and everything that has happened since 2007…who went where, who is still in, what are they doing, etc. In my researching I’m trying to figure out how Haugen’s upline went (I was down through his group, through the Simms).

    Would Haugen’s upline have been the following? I know Wilson and Haugen were close, but don’t know if they were actually in the same upline? Any info is greatly appreciated!

    Don Wilson
    Randy Haugen

  153. Melanie Morgan permalink
    January 9, 2015 8:43 am


    They were 2 separate LOS and crossline…imagine that it is a Cardinal Rule for crossling! But as usual, the ‘rules change when it needs to benefit the top’. Although Rand Haugen has left Orrin Woodward ( one could read why all those others don’t want anything to do with Orrin Woodward and his yes men and logically and some common sense and would probably figure out why they all would rather stay away).

    Yager>Ron & Toby Hale> Joe & Bette Dipola>Larry & Marci Vanbuskirk>Woodward. There might have been more above or between Vanbuskirk & Woodward but I was never aware of any.


    Yager>Willson>Haugen. Someone else could better tell you that original line of sponsorship.

  154. Chris permalink
    January 9, 2015 8:47 am

    Melanie…awesome, thank you! I’ve been trying to a timeline of events since I left and kept seeing Wilson and Woodward’s name linked together so your information is helpful.

    I’m not sure when Haugen left MoneVie, but end of 2013/middle of 2014 he was part of the team to put together Avisae/Blue Ocean Marketing Group…most of my previous upline to Haugen…that’s where they all are now. Don’t know much about it, but there’s plenty of info out there…and you can find video’s of Haugen giving the new Avisae plan, and holy goodness, it was like I was reliving a circle drawing nightmare!!!

    Be interested to know if anyone knows how Avisae is doing growth wise!?!?

  155. You permalink
    May 16, 2015 3:47 pm

    Amthrax something called allysian sciences popped up and I thought you might find a certain “Dean Grey” on the management team familiar. Worth checking out looks very familiar

  156. June 19, 2015 11:11 am

    My wife and I were in Amway and sponsored by a guy/couple who I always knew/believed to be dishonest; Dennis and Connie Long. They went diamond and we were a direct leg. We got out after years of drawing circles and losing friends. Dennis of course bad mouthed us on the way out. Turns out I was right all along he is, was and always will be a crook!

  157. freedomhaha permalink
    October 27, 2015 4:33 pm

    Sunday is 4 years since 11/1/11 the launch of LIFE. They seem right on pace for 1,000,000. Congrats Orrin and crew!

  158. Darren permalink
    January 8, 2016 3:03 pm


    I spent from 1992-2003 doing everything that my upline Diamond in Amway, Hal Golden, told me to do. I had 10-20 customers, showed the plan 10 times a month, used my own products, paid my own store, and went to every function imaginable – local and majors, bout tapes, books, nuts and bolts, blah blah blah….built it to about 4000 PV and then it all imploded…had about $2,000 in inventory on my shelves that Amway wouldnt take back – so much for the money back guarantee.

    I did everything I was told to do and being out 5 nights a week and 2 weekends per month with distance groups, it cost me my first marriage because I was always gone.

    Hows that for a success story.

    This cult is amazing and very destructive.

  159. January 9, 2016 8:03 am

    @darren – thanks for sharing you story. What was the last straw for you that caused you to finally leave? Your marriage breaking down? Implosion of your team? Hope that you have been able to recover over the last 12 years.

  160. Darren permalink
    January 9, 2016 10:45 am

    @amthrax when i was ‘building the business’ I did develop some amazing friendships that I still have today…both crossline and downline…I also learned amazing people skills that has benefited me professionally in a nice sales career since then.

    That said, the last straw was when i seperated from my ex, I was still building it like crazy but then one by one, our ‘friends for life’ disappeared. The people we were going to travel to the ‘beaches of the world’ with, went away permanently because of our divorce. It sad, World Wide Group touts a ‘less than 1% divorce rate’ because you’re working on the business together which is a complete farce. Once we divorced officially, upline went away magically instead of supporting us and within 6 months, my income was gone.

    Yes the ‘wonderful business’ destroyed another marriage. Now granted, we had problems outside of the business but had we had the time because i was out ‘building the dream’ because I was told to, to work on us, we might still be together.

    Ive recovered nicely. I dont hate Amway…great company, great products, good comp plan, but hate hate hate the cult menatlity and if you dont adopt it or conform to your upline, you’re cut out of the herd quickly. Ive made 6 figures in my post-Amway sales jobs and have actually started a credit restoration/personal/business funding company. I am remarried to an awesome gal that supports me and i her, and we have a 9 year old that is awesome. My 19 year old (from the previous marriage) i sin school and wants to start his own business.

    I dont hate the industry either. I will look at anything. Im open-minded that way but if i ever look at or start another MLM, it will be under my rules because of what I experienced in the past. I will not warm list someone…I will not do home meetings…it will all be through lead gen and social media.

    Sorry for the rant, but you asked…lol

    Thanks for the opportunity to share.

  161. Anonymous permalink
    March 11, 2016 9:16 am

    Life Leadership has been around for a few years. Isn’t it about time there was another name change for Orrin Woodward ‘s company? Let’s not forget Walmart of the Internet , Team of Destiny , Team , Life , Life Leadership .

    Out of all these business endeavors, how many people are now living on the beach collecting residual income?

  162. March 31, 2016 2:41 pm

    @MArch 11 Anonymous – your final Q says it all.

    I was in the Downeast org (Diamonds Tim and Sheri Bryan under Yager before the Bryans divorced and Sheri married another guy #RewrittenHistory).

    On marriages – My Diamonds, Emeralds, and multiple Platinums were on 2nd or 3rd marriages since joining the biz, so………

    On the Beaches – The Emerald would talk about us all being real big, and how we’d buy real estate and other stuff. That Emerald is still working a normal job, and so is everyone else.

    They never did any of that stuff

  163. concernedfriend permalink
    April 15, 2016 9:07 am

    So I have a friend who is getting into this life leadership and it makes me sick what I have found here, but I’m wondering why there seems to be nothing new for the past couple years. Are you keeping up with new developments?

  164. concernedfriend permalink
    April 15, 2016 10:43 am

    So I have a friend who is getting into this life leadership and it makes me sick to think she is so taken by this company knowing what I have found here. I can see why people get sucked in. They want to be part of something bigger than themselves, and the message they are touting is good one that resonates with many people. My question is that these ideas are not new. Orrin woodward and his cronies did not invent the wheel. …so where did they get their “ideas” from? I ask because it would be nice to have a list of comperable books and “tools” that have been written by proven leaders who aren’t corrupt that people could see and know that life leadership doesn’t have the market cornered on this and you get this info cheaper – even free! and are their true leaders who are speaking out against fake leaders such as these?

  165. April 16, 2016 3:21 pm

    @concernedfriend – most of the discussion is happening in the comments section of the site. You’ll also want to read this post to understand why my posting has been more infrequent in recent years:

  166. concernedfriend permalink
    April 17, 2016 11:05 am

    Thank you for your response. …I did think I was responding in the comments section, so sorry about that. Do you mean the ex-team discussion postings? Because I don’t see “comments section” by itself. …but I’m a little bit slow when it comes to websites and navigating my way around. Again, I can tell you are busy now so thank you for your response and all you have done here. I just hope I can somehow help my friend.

  167. April 18, 2016 9:09 am

    @concernedfriend – There’s a list of Recent Comments on the right-hand sidebar of the blog. That’s where you can see the posts with the most active discussions.

  168. permalink
    July 28, 2019 4:26 am

    Tim marks made right choice to stand up to orrin.

  169. permalink
    July 28, 2019 4:31 am

    However, the company known as life leadership has been willing to speak about the finicial matrix of debt. As to that purpose I still a member in life business. If orrin learns his lesson< he can avoid having another of his partners walk away. His desire to be on top of everything< has made him abuse his authority, greed is a monster to any big business, I work with him on a basic concept of ridding this world of the evil debt makers.


  1. Now Chuck Knows « Amthrax
  2. Turning Down the Volume « AMTHRAX
  3. Since Orrin Won’t Talk About Amway/Quixtar, Let Dan Hawkins Explain It « AMTHRAX
  4. Multi-Level Marketing, Life Leadership: Getting Someone Else Rich | The Frugal Nexus
  5. Dennis Eugene Long, Million Dollar Scammer and Former Amway Diamond Sentenced to 12 Years in Prison for Drug Scam | AMTHRAX

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