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Do As I Say, Not As I Do: TEAM Round Table Member’s Home Foreclosure [Updated]

February 7, 2012

Price History for 11735 Kings Colony, Grand Blanc, Michigan

Recent discussion about conducting public records searches in for Genesee County, Michigan has revealed another unfortunate financial story1 for a current, high-ranking TEAM Round Table Member. I doubt this story will be covered on Kirk and Cassie Birtle’s blog2, nor will it ever be recited from the TEAM LIFE stage.

Here is the Trulia listing for 11735 Kings Colony, Grand Blanc MI 48439. Some facts about the house:

  1. The property was the former home of TEAM Policy Council members, Chris and Terri Brady. They purchased the home in 2001 for $550,000.
  2. TEAM Round Table Members Kirk and Cassie Birtles bought the home from the Brady’s for $500,000 in January, 2008.
  3. In May, 2010, the property was repossessed by the bank and classified as REO (real-estate owned).
  4. The house was most recently listed for $212,000 on 6/29/2011, but is currently off the market.

All of this information comes from public records. From the real estate description (bold emphasis mine):

Endless possibilities!! Spacious brick 2-story located in popular Kings Pointe Sub. 5 Bedrooms, 5 1/2 baths, open floor plan, fire-lit living room, finished basement, 4 car garage & much more. Home has water damage, missing floor coverings & needs TLC. This property is eligible under the Freddie Mac First Look Initiative through 04/26/11. Owner occupants to receive a 2 yr home warranty at closing.

Looking at the photos, I wonder how the house got damaged. Was it general neglect after being unoccupied for the past year and a half? Was it vandals who did this? Was it a case of buyer’s revenge?

At the end of the day, however, it doesn’t matter how the house got into disrepair. What is indisputable is the fact the house was foreclosed and the Birtles were the previous owners.

The Birtles once were recognized as MonaVie Diamonds (they are no longer on the list of Field Leaders they are listed under Endurance Enterprises, Inc. on the MonaVie Field Leaders page, instead of their names3) and are current TEAM Round Table members. They are regular speakers at the Southfield, Michigan Opens, having spoken as recently as January 12, 2012. Shouldn’t the Birtles have been rolling in the dough for the past several years, enough at least to pay for their house?

Apparently not.

As I wrote before when revealing the bankruptcy filings of three TEAM Round Table members, the point of this post is not to revel in the misfortunes of the Birtles. Having a home foreclosed or filing for bankruptcy is a life-changing and stressful event. The point I’m making is to reveal the illusion of success in TEAM LIFE.

  1. If I were a prospect or TEAM Member, would I want to learn about finances from someone who recently filed for bankruptcy? Heck no!
  2. If I were a prospect or TEAM Member, would I want to learn about real estate from someone who had their home foreclosed? Heck no!

Orrin Woodward talks about experience trumping opinions. I don’t need to have experience with a bankruptcy or a home foreclosure to know that these things are to be avoided!

Update February 8, 2012: We conclude this post with a choice quote from Tim Marks in his post, “Measuring Success: Life Coaches vs. LIFE Coaches” (bold emphasis mine):

Of course, I’m not saying the entire life coaching industry is bad, but it’s not as good as it could be. Why is that? Well it all depends on what’s the most important component – certification or real success. Lack of success in any given area in life doesn’t automatically make a bad person, but it does disqualify someone from giving good advice. Someone who knows successful life principles well enough to teach them ought to live them as well. It just makes sense that to be a successful coach you must first have SUCCESS!!

An exercise for the reader: Think about Tim’s quote when you look at and analyze the TEAM LIFE Leadership.

1 I have previously written about the bankruptcies of three TEAM Round Table members, in addition to the strategic default by a TEAM Policy Council member.

2 Here is a link to the Birtle’s TEAM Bio.

3 An earlier version of this post stated that the Birtles are no longer listed on the MV Field Leaders page. They are, but under their Endurance Enterprise, Inc. business name.

66 Comments leave one →
  1. Speak Your Truth permalink
    February 7, 2012 12:36 pm

    What are these guys hiding? Are they avoiding some kind of captial gains or hiding money from taxes? It sure seems that all this stuff points to something that just isn’t right. There must be more to these shenanigans because it seems they are flipping houses and money back and forth through these LLC’s? It sure smells like fish.

  2. Speak Your Truth permalink
    February 7, 2012 12:45 pm

    Looks like the PC was dumping their houses on their downlines during the lawsuits fiasco’s. Did the PC liquidate and dump on their downlines so they could free up their cash and know these guys could not afford it but it seems they covered their own a$$es and let their downlines take the fall for them?

  3. Speak Your Truth permalink
    February 7, 2012 1:09 pm

    Great Job Amthrax! And where is Vogel, this would be a job for him…haha!

  4. February 7, 2012 3:04 pm

    Wow. A house that sold for 550k in 2001 should not have sold for 500k in 2008. Not in MI and definitely not in Genesee county. Not without major improvements. Maybe somewhere in the 350-400k range.

  5. February 7, 2012 8:42 pm

    I can’t fully describe how sick this kinda stuff makes me feel. I actually looked up to some of these people, and at one time was taking financial advice from some of them! Wow.. how the mighty have fallen! But hey…. fake it till you make it right?! But I thought by Round Table (and beyond) you should have “made it”. 2-5 year plan you say….? Passive residual, ongoing, pipeline income you say….? What did Chris Brady like to say…SCOREBOARD! How’s that going for ya? Time for a check up, from the neck up!

  6. Speak Your Truth permalink
    February 7, 2012 9:38 pm


    Very interesting! Now how to decipher it all?

    These guys are soooo shady who knows what kinda of things they have done, but am sure the day will come when it is all in the open…thanks to this site!!

  7. February 7, 2012 10:14 pm

    @MLM Punisher – The other thing to note is that 2010 was well into TEAM’s affiliation with MonaVie. They can’t fall back on and say that their departure from Amway/Quixtar was the underlying reason for the financial problems leading to the foreclosure. Either (1) MonaVie income wasn’t much to write home about or (2) TEAM income dried up or (3) both (1) and (2) occurred.

  8. Chris permalink
    February 8, 2012 1:47 am

    back again. I need to know some info on Orrin Woodwards menter also The most recent cd i listened to on mentoring said it.was pastor dickie. Do u have more info on him. It say on here heno longer the menter, than who is. This site has me almost convinced me. very disapointed in Mr. Woodward. I’d still like to meet him, to see what he’s really like. NEXT ? How long were u on team, and what made u decode it was time to leave? For me right now

    1. not finding anybody who wants to, because of trust, word of mouth, cost to much, pyramid scheme- I can’t lie i say it is, and people don’t have time. so I made dollars, come on.

    2. 2majors so far- starting to add up now majors areup, unless sign up @ spot.

    3 started to ? if its to good to be true it usually is. can’t sleep because at first i was excited about my dream now i realize at what cost, funny the book of the mnth was a dream book by John Max well, said make sure your not livinh someone elses dream! made me think.

    4. Remember a top team leader @ restaurant not on my team by the way acted very strangely didnt seem very nice to waiter or polite, but on stage he was all fired up?

    5.talked to other people on team @ major seemed very comformed responses, im not a.conformist, but yet i am teachable, if its primciple based.

    Again Chris Brady is a rascal, really, sorry how can he say that with so much conviction and be following Orrin. That cd I loved but it backfired because how is he such a rascal? so I made up my mind, i will still be in team and want to see what happens . how people treat me, etc. The poini will make is this to them, Jesus says love your enemies, so depending on how they treat me is how.i will determine what to do next? When i ssk some ? sI really do like the team I am on in pa..they would do almost anything for anyone, this will be the test. or just for the team? Im still s little confused and dont know how to address the team, or what ?s to ask specifically to me? 2nd if i speak up @ s seminar will they backlash or ignore the? If i feel strong enough about an argument I will

    I will let team know if there is deceit. I feel i need to let it out if it is a sham. Any suggestio.s on how to do this? If u think Orrin is such a bad guy for.leading people astray hw could we stop him. My idea is people is simple, address the team personally. Orrin says or is it Chris Brady, that noone has power over me other than my creator. I lisetened to a lot of cds, i can use them to. I still havent figured out a way to ask a ? to expose any de eit any suggestions.. I felt God led me to the team, still do, I think God led me for a different reason now. ? Did anyone on here watch Couragous?

    If I find out the truth, I will expose them as.much as I can especially iif there hurting people through their business and leadi.g people to false hope. There promotion of the movie “courageous” will be there downfall, which teaches not to be idle when people do wrong. tired going to bed..crazy world we live in..Thank God for Jesus!

    [Editor’s note: Add paragraphs for easier readability]

  9. Chris permalink
    February 8, 2012 1:57 am

    sorry bout spelling, and other errors, really tired and typing on cell phone.

  10. Chris permalink
    February 8, 2012 6:35 am

    Is it possible to expose the team deception to others, who are on my team, I believe Orrin is that good realing people in with his cleverness. I dont want to see families destroyed. Besides this site what can i do to get people to realize hes not the leader he says he is. I feel if I quit, I need to share a valid point to others, opinions arent gonna matter, i need some evidence. Pastor dicki was there menter, i want to expose the fact he left and why. Do u have any evidence. My evidence would be from the cds, but people on team can say anything they want why he.left. Does anybody know who Orrins menter is now? A lot of people who state they are Christian are in this, how do I tell them, remember there told not to look @ these sites. Trying not just to salvage myself, but people who have been on the team for a while and will follow Orrin and crew off a cliff. Theres a lot of good people who think there doing good on the team? alwys ask is it for Gods glory or yours?

  11. February 8, 2012 8:55 am

    @Chris – Showing this site to those fully invested on TEAM may not do much good; the site is more useful once you are outside the influence of TEAM. What you can do is use the public records documents that have been revealed on this blog — bankruptcies, foreclosures, strategic defaults, etc. — along with publications like the Forbes Magazine article on Orrin Woodward to raise legitimate questions to your upline.

    Make use of the TEAM leadership’s own pronouncements against them. I just updated this post with a quote from Tim Marks. He wrote:

    Of course, I’m not saying the entire life coaching industry is bad, but it’s not as good as it could be. Why is that? Well it all depends on what’s the most important component – certification or real success. Lack of success in any given area in life doesn’t automatically make a bad person, but it does disqualify someone from giving good advice. Someone who knows successful life principles well enough to teach them ought to live them as well. It just makes sense that to be a successful coach you must first have SUCCESS!!

    Ask him if this applies to the TEAM LIFE leaders who have filed for bankruptcy, foreclosures and strategic defaults? Are they qualified to speak about Finances?

    Regarding Pastor Dickie. I suggest contacting and asking him that question directly. While he may not give you the full story, his response may be enough to demonstrate to you that he has little interest in supporting Orrin and TEAM today.

  12. Former Round Table permalink
    February 8, 2012 10:12 am


    Orrin did indeed mentor with Pastor Dickie for years; that ended when Pastor Dickie pointed out problems within the Team business model and the differences between what was said by leaders on stage and what really happened behind the scenes. Two of Pastor’s sons and his son-in-law worked in the Team office; they all quit, along with a number of other employees, after witnessing first-hand Orrin’s corruption and pathological lying. (Their words, not mine.)

    Orrin is what is known as an Extreme Narcissist. He cannot tolerate any criticism of himself or his ideas. When Pastor told Orrin he would not speak at any more Team functions unless Orrin corrected his un-Christian practices, Orrin proceeded to lie about and slander Pastor Dickie and his sons. He told many people that he had to fire both Bobby and Ben Dickie for stealing and that Pastor was going senile and had stopped acting in a Biblical way.

    At the very same time he was spreading vicious lies about Pastor, Orrin asked to meet with him to “reconcile” their differences. Pastor Dickie met with Orrin, at Orrin’s request, at least twice. There were plenty of witnesses at those meetings, including elders from Pastor Dickie’s church. Matt Abraham was at one meeting, and Don Freeze was at another. At both meetings Orrin made promises that he broke literally within days. Orrin also wrote several nasty letters to Pastor. Yet he continued to call Pastor and request additional meetings so they could have resolution! Pastor has had enough–no more meetings with someone who clearly has no intention of changing, repenting, or even admitting his sin.

    The story Orrin tells his leaders is that Pastor refuses to meet with him for reconciliation. Orrin never tells them that Pastor had already met with him twice. That is why so many of the team leadership left Pastor’s church–they believe Orrin over Pastor.

    It is unlikely that Pastor would answer any questions about his relationship with Orrin and the Team unless he knew the questioner personally. Orrin has had a number of people call Pastor on his behalf, including the pastor of the church Orrin now attends in Florida. (There is a whole other story about that guy! Let’s put it this way–Orrin and Steve Camp are two peas in a pod.) Pastor just wants to focus on his current church family and help them in their walk with Christ.

    I hope this helps a little. Keep in mind that God, for reasons we don’t always understand, allows evil in this world. There are times when it looks like evil is winning, even flourishing. Doesn’t make it right.

  13. Speak Your Truth permalink
    February 8, 2012 10:40 am

    Great Advice to Chris… Amthrax and Webelieved~

    I would also add go to Orrin’s blog and Facebook and ask the questions directly to Orrin as you, Chris said yourself was your “idea” to “go to the Team”. Ask Orrin in a public forum your direct questions and if he doesn’t answer specifically or you don’t understand them ask again until you get your answers. Then make your decision or you will get catch in a perpetual trap.

    Tim Marks and the rest of the PC need to get real and specific on their subjective idea of what “Success” means to them. It is just their opinion what they ‘think’ is Success and are they expecting everyone else to measure it the same? Not so! I believe they measure “Success” by Money and Material things. Then is ‘their idea’ of “Success”; does it matter how you get it? Bernie Madoff to some; would be considered a “Success.” Every criminal in the world could be consider a “Success” if they gained money and material things by their corruption!

    Do they believe it is okay to ‘gain’ “Success” by deceiving, gaming, lying, stealing, and cheating? You could still ‘gain’ money and material legal or illegal, ethically or unethically, morally or immorally. More specific’s…please. ha!

    They throw the “Success” term out as if their ‘idea’ of “Success” is Thee ONLY way…the Gospel..That people do or ‘should’, perceive it the way they do.

    I would totally disagree with measuring “Success” by money and material things. Have they deluded themselves to believe the rest of the world falls into their ‘idea’ of “Success”? Or worse their manipulation techniques that everyone ‘should believe’ the way they do or the message is you are ‘unsuccessful” and just want “perpetual handouts” if you don’t believe what ‘we’ (the Pc) believe “Success” is?

    “Success” to me is many things but mostly involves the intangibles and what is after this experience called life…it is being allowed to decide what “Success” is thefreedom’ for oneself without someone cramming it down your throat of you should believe; what “Success” means…Freedom of Mind…etc..etc..etc..

    There are far more important things to measure “Success” by….and money and material is the bottom; if even on my list of important things; to measure “Success.”

    “For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world and forfeits his soul? Or what shall a man give in return for his soul?” ~ Mathew 16:26

    “And keep the charge of the Lord your God, walking in his ways and keeping his statutes, his commandments, his rules, and his testimonies, as it is written in the Law of Moses, that you may prosper in all that you do and wherever you turn”~ 1 Kings 2:3

    “No man shall be able to stand before you all the days of your life. Just as I was with Moses, so I will be with you. I will not leave you or forsake you. Be strong and courageous, for you shall cause this people to inherit the land that I swore to their fathers to give them. Only be strong and very courageous, being careful to do according to all the law that Moses my servant commanded you. Do not turn from it to the right hand or to the left, that you may have good success wherever you go. This Book of the Law shall not depart from your mouth, but you shall meditate on it day and night, so that you may be careful to do according to all that is written in it. For then you will make your way prosperous, and then you will have good success. Have I not commanded you? Be strong and courageous. Do not be frightened, and do not be dismayed, for the Lord your God is with you wherever you go.”
    ~ Joshua 1:5-9

    And many more…

    Good luck to you Chris, but I will be blunt and to answer a question you asked, we were in almost a decade and half, up close and personal to Orrin and Laurie, and other PC. We were recruited into Amway, then it changed to Quixtar and the name was Team of Destiny, Team, Team without any ‘product’ during the lawsuits Orrin brought on himself, then Team MV, now it is Team and Lief their own MLM. We were there all the way up until they destroyed on teams and stole our income. Through all the MLM hopping. And I will tell you, take the advice on here and this site seriously. Get your questions answered and move on to your real purpose. You are chasing Orrin’s Dream, Not your own!

    Good luck on your quest for the truth, Chris.

  14. Former Round Table permalink
    February 8, 2012 10:42 am

    It’s noteworthy that both Matt Abraham and Don Freeze, who were asked by Orrin to be witnesses at the meetings between Orrin and Pastor Dickie, will have nothing to do with Orrin or Team anymore.

  15. Whirlwinded permalink
    February 8, 2012 11:45 am

    I’d like to add also that many states offer free viewing of public records (circuit court access) where you can find out anything from traffic citations to felonies.

  16. Speak Your Truth permalink
    February 8, 2012 11:57 am

    Former Round Table~

    Thanks for sharing. There are so much these guys have done and do behind the scenes, it is tragic and appalling.

    They deceive the masses by their fake facades and illusinary masks of Christianity; but those of us who have experienced and witnessed the truth; know beyond a shadow of a doubt that they are not who they ‘pretend’ to be.

    If people would just open their eyes and THINK.. ‘see’ the discrepancies, double messages and standards, and their obvious ‘best interest’ is their sickness…love of money…rather than turn it on themselves because of their ‘indoctrination’; that it is everyone else (YOU), whom are the ‘problem’; instead of ‘seeing’ the facts right in front of their faces, there wouldn’t be a soul left to deceive! They are clever… to the unsuspecting and naive the ‘proven’ deception works.

    Their greatest strength is… they are masters of manipulation and deception!

  17. Speak Your Truth permalink
    February 8, 2012 12:01 pm


    Do you have any links? 🙂

  18. TruthSeeker permalink
    February 8, 2012 1:51 pm

    One of my Facebook friends has struck again. Look what he has posted up on Chris Brady’s wall. It has been there for 3 hours….Lomas Morton is my hero!

  19. February 8, 2012 2:06 pm

    I liked his, “I was unaware that one of the 8 F’s that you taught was Foreclosure.” quip. Further down on the FB page, Lomas explains how he turned around:

    Lomas Morton Julie, i did ok in team. Just like everybody else I didnt make no money but I liked hangin with good people. But when I found out about mark huber and watched the way it was handled by orrin and co. I knew I couldnt be a part of this no more. once I was out the more I found out that this is just a money grab with leaders that have commited crimes and have filed bankruptcy I started “hatin”. Call me a quiter if you want but I cannot learn finances from leaders who have gone bankrupt or learn about faith from criminals or learn about anything from gurus who have to make up web pages to give themselves fake awards. If you can thats cool.

  20. Freedomhaha permalink
    February 8, 2012 2:30 pm

    Former RT- What you said about evil reminded me of this timeless quote” ‘All that is necessary for evil to flourish is for good men to do nothing”. On this blog good men (and women of course) are doing something in the face of the pure evil that is TEAM!!

  21. Speak Your Truth permalink
    February 8, 2012 2:56 pm

    Lomas~ You Rock…haha!

  22. Freedomhaha permalink
    February 8, 2012 3:30 pm

    Lomas- I love it! haha Makes me smile when I see that. I just had a conversation with my roommate and he is fully involved in the fight for the truth! One more solider is on our team!

  23. Speak Your Truth permalink
    February 8, 2012 4:26 pm


    That is always great news! 🙂

  24. Whirlwinded permalink
    February 8, 2012 9:25 pm

    Speak Your Truth…. well, I can’t comment on other states, but here’s the link to Wisconsin’s…

  25. Speak Your Truth permalink
    February 8, 2012 10:32 pm


    Thanks, I appreciate the link. 🙂

  26. February 10, 2012 4:57 pm

    Lomas Morton’s posts on Brady’s Facebook pages have been deleted. There is a new comment from Craig Godeke which links to the TEAM LIFE cult page on Freedom of Mind.

  27. TruthSeeker permalink
    February 10, 2012 6:09 pm

    Interesting how Brady is paying more attention to this blog than his own public Facebook page isn’t it? One of Mr. Morton’s comments was well over 1 month old and had not been deleted. The minute it comes up on here then the comments disappear.

    What are you all doing to make them so damn interested in this blog?

  28. Speak Your Truth permalink
    February 10, 2012 6:21 pm


    We Tell the Truth about them and Smile A lot! 🙂

  29. billy permalink
    March 2, 2012 12:44 pm

    TEAM talk just indicated that the Birtles just went quad 100! Sounds like LIFE is booming.

  30. Speak Your Truth permalink
    March 2, 2012 6:14 pm

    I wonder if it is in the ‘Team talk’ that the Birtles were already recognized as New Policy Council Members clear back in June of 2008?

    That would mean they had 6 Teams @ 100 and haven’t caught up to where they would be almost 4 years ago! And the Team claims they are ‘exploding?’ haha..Doesn’t seem to exciting when that fact is added, does it?

    Now I am sure they are all ‘fired-up’ and the Team is blowning and hyping this up to be an Amazing ‘movin on’ couple and great accomplishment; and many would believe that at least the brand new guy or those who don’t know the rest of the story, they would be falling for the Wow factor… but… news flash… that isn’t ‘fired-up’ when you go backwards of at least 2 teams of 100 or 200 people from 4 years ago!

    I wonder if those pesky little facts have been shared and are also included in the ‘Team talk’? Otherwise, IMO, it is very misleading to people that don’t know they were already recognized for having 6 teams @ 100, almost 4 years ago.

    And based on all those who have been ‘given’ (special deals) or other people’s teams that they didn’t build (system & ticket counts) misleading all the others as if they did earn it organically, and everyone else are expected to build it without any special deals; such as the case with Dan & Lisa Hawkins, and others.

    It then raises the question: Were the Birtles given teams also or is their “Quad 100” based solely on their own organic efforts?

    And IMO, it is very suspect and even more suspect is that the Birtles ‘foreclosure’ facts in this very post by Amthrax; just came to light less than a month ago. Maybe it is just me but it seems there is a pattern going on…haha. It is curious, if they are the ‘only’ couple that is being recognized currently?

    All my comments are based on our personal experience of well over a decade, knowledge from the facts, and my beliefs and opinions. 🙂

  31. The Truth Hurts permalink
    April 6, 2012 5:53 pm

    Interesting about the Bradys ex home..I pulled in the drive and walked completely around the home, looked in the windows..and it is a mess! It looked to me like someone literally took the walls out of the basement level..there are wall studs showing. Flooring is pulled up in one of the front, actually two front rooms. Kitchen has damage, what a torn up mess. It does not appear that anyone burglarized the home, at least to me. I know the neighborhood, it would be hard to have an outsider trash that house, because people live too close by for that to happen, to my way of thinking. Wow, is this what residual, willable income means??

  32. A wounded bear permalink
    April 6, 2012 9:15 pm

    @ the truth hurts….are you talking about their FL house?

  33. Finally permalink
    April 8, 2012 5:48 pm

    Speak, PC back then was 4 at 100 and 2 at 50 so they already hit the level they are being recognized for. So if they actually hit it it is after they had it and lost it and just regained it…..funny how only in team lief do they re-recognize and celebrate the levels over and over and over, it would be like Orrin crossing stage for power player LOL. Birltes the guy who got his house foreclosed on and who knows what else went quad, or re went quad……..I don’t even know how they would cross stage at this point…they have no shame and are so DESPERATE for recognition in a model that is going backwards that they have to resort to this……….Going to a million!!!! Fired Up!!!! You can do it!!!! Show the Plan!!! Puleeeeez,,,,,,,I wonder if Cassie cried on stage…can you see it now……..fake tears, sniffle sniffle…….and the obligatory “guy’s if you just hang in there and show the plan you can do it too” “Just empty your bank account, get out your charge card and buy your next major ticket, if we can do it so can you………Puuuuuking……….What a joke. They supposedly were already at quad four years ago and they do it now???????? It took four years to hit it again???????? How many systems did they buy like Darkangelo and Hawkins???? I mean let’s get the whole truth……….

  34. Freedomhaha permalink
    April 9, 2012 6:15 am

    It is just sick stuff. I think when you are inside the TEAM/LIEf cult it is hard to see the rerecognition happening because all of the majors blend together. That and the lies that are forced down your throat all the time. Is money really that important to these people that they feel the need to ruin other peoples lives in order to have an extra boat, or vacation. Everything they are doing is that the expense of the peons going to Tuesdays below them. The fact that I helped play for my uplines vacation and house absolutely makes me sick.

    So blessed to be out of TEAM/LIEf today!

  35. Speak Your Truth permalink
    April 10, 2012 4:41 pm


    Thanks for clarifiying (system reference to PC) and the rest of your true.. The re-recognition does seem quite the over kill and shows how the desperado’s ‘need’ it;(“grown men die for it babies cry for it”) at least to keep the blind followers ‘believin’ it and dumping their money being sucked up to the TOPP bank accounts; of the PC!

    When people ‘quit’ believin’ and wake up that it a dellisonal greedy messages and whatever comes out of thee master (mis) leaders mouths as the all and only authoritive gospel truth (despite the undenial losses built in to the comp plans) and ‘quit’ listening to the same repeated indoctrinating, mind numbing messages; What thou shall they do or believe in? Will they loose all their (selling) ‘hope’ in their lives (absurd) as the dictators would want you to believe (that you would then be a quitter, loser, hater, don’t want to learn, achieve, or read ever… I know, when people snap out of it and ‘quit’ believin in those false hope messages of the all knowing authoritive guru’s that they are the ‘answer’ to everyone’s life’s problems; in other words, when they stop the insanity and madness of the undue influence; then those people regain their critical thinking and can see they were deceived!

    It is as Casey C. used to say; a tape is a tape, then it becomes more than a tape = (the secret info.. mind altering effect, phase of listening) to then to return to it as; just a tape! You wake up from the wow, secret information… and you realize it was just a tape/ Cd, chuck full of propaganda, undue influence and mind altering messages…I mean…world class leadership. 🙂

  36. The Truth Hurts permalink
    April 13, 2012 10:15 am

    Wounded Bear

    No, I am talking about CB’s former house in Grand Blanc. The house was lovely at one time..but was it ever trashed after they sold it..I agree with the idea that when it sold it was for a lot of money considering what housing prices were/are dropping to in Genesee County.

  37. Former Round Table permalink
    April 13, 2012 1:13 pm

    The Truth Hurts/Wounded Bear:
    Chris Brady sold his first house in Grand Blanc to his parents (or gave it to them); he sold the second house, in Kings Pointe subdivision, to Kirk & Cassie Birtles. They are the ones who walked away from the house and left it such a mess.
    I cannot tell you how glad I am away from that pack of lying, sleazy scumbags. The whole thing is like a rotten onion; the more you unwrap, the uglier it gets.

  38. Linda permalink
    August 10, 2012 5:30 pm

    Hello, I was just wondering if there are any real names behind the posts that are bringing the truth out. I am asking this honestly, because what it boils down to is that I want to know the whole truth. If someone is doing something wrong, it needs to be brought to light; but if those bringing it to light are anonymous, how can I check credibility. I really do want to know the truth because I am a new Team member and although I find a lot of the material helpful, there are things that seem…iffy. Thank you!

  39. August 13, 2012 7:50 am

    Linda: There are real people behind the handles used for posting comments on this website. There are multiple reasons why people have chosen to use handles; fear of reprisals from current TEAM members is one. These are primarily former TEAM members. If you were to believe the stories that they have told here, you can understand why they would want to remain anonymous.

    On the other hand, there are people who use their real names on this blog, including Brent Hansen and Mike Collins.

    Since you’re a new TEAM member, you should continue to ask questions. If the TEAM leadership can’t give you straight answers to simple questions (i.e. like “did so-and-so file for foreclosure or bankruptcy?”), you have to think that there’s something amiss.

  40. Former Round Table permalink
    August 13, 2012 1:39 pm

    Linda, there are plenty of ways to verify the claims made on this site. Bankruptcies and foreclosures are matter of public record. Hubers, Darkangelos and Cullens all filed for bankruptcy in Michigan. Guzzardos property in Arizona was put up for public auction; when that fact was noted on this site, George posted a self-serving article on his blog which basically admitted that he had opted for a strategic default. In other words, he stopped making the payments he had promised to pay. (He has since removed that blog post.) Birtles home in Grand Blanc was listed on as bank-owned, and the photos showed the deplorable condition. Hubers also abandoned their home in Grand Blanc–I am not sure if it has been foreclosed on yet or not. You could do a drive by to check out the condition.

    Home ownership is also a matter of public record. To the best of my knowledge, one of Orrin’s companies owns both Bill Lewis’ and Holgar Spiewak’s houses in Grand Blanc; I would not be surprised if he also owns the Hawkin’s home in Wisconsin along with others. (You see, it is not so easy to get a mortgage from a bank when you have Team Life income, because IT IS NOT DEPENDABLE! Else, why have so many Team Life “leaders” been in so much financial trouble?)

    As for asking Team people to answer these questions, just remember one thing. Orrin has made it his mission to study the best ways to manipulate people, and he has become a master at it. He is the king of spin, and he can give anybody the most reasonable sounding reasons for anything. My advice to you is…TRUST YOUR GUT!! It is telling you that some things seem iffy, so LISTEN TO IT!

  41. Mike Collins permalink
    August 13, 2012 4:10 pm

    Hi Linda, welcome to Amthrax’s site! He gave you probably the best advice anyone can give i.e. continue to ask questions. I have been posting on this site for almost a year now and though i have no personal experience with “o” or any of the other usual suspects i can tell you that, in my opinion, the stories that are told here have a thread of continuity in them that is hard to dismiss.

    I think it comes down to one thing in the end: what does the preponderance of evidence show me. If it looks like a duck, if it quacks like a duck……you know the rest.

    Read the numerous posts on this blog. Get to know the posters’ stories. Look at the comp plan PDF as well as watch the compensation analysis videos I’ve done thewn decide if Life is for you or not. If it isn’t, quit….if it is…….who are we to tell you otherwise.

  42. freedomhaha permalink
    August 13, 2012 5:09 pm

    Linda, Welcome to this site! I respect you for coming on here and asking tough questions. I can assure you that real people do exist behind these names. Real people come here that have been suckered into a lose-lose system lead by Orrin. As Brent has said 99% of people lose money in this scam. Amthax has done so much to help the healing process, and the depression that followed the leaving of TEAMscam. Since posting here about nine months ago my life has greatly improved having left team in all areas of my life 😉 My family also loves the fact that I am no longer in a abusive commercial cult.

  43. MustHaveBeenTerribleMother permalink
    August 16, 2012 6:17 am

    @Former Round Table: excellent post to that lady about foreclosures, strategic defaults, etc., and public info availablility. Like her, I, too, wanted peoples’ names who were posting on this site, but I understand why you don’t. Likewise, I don’t list my name to protect my grandchildren and daughter-in-law, and actually, I’m not out to embarrass/humiliate my sadly blinded son (as he did to me when I refused to give him one dime for this endeavor) over his involvement. (note: am NOT calling my son a dummy—he is desperate to earn more money fast in an economy that may well get worse for some of us after the elections–the more doomsday-but-respected economist who predicted the 2008 fallout says the resultant tsunami may well be coming by 2014).

  44. Mike Collins permalink
    August 16, 2012 6:42 am

    Mother: the yearning all of us have to be free and to do something great i.e. the “dream” is extremely powerful. When you see the circles for the first time and they click you (think) you have found the answer not knowing that the mathematics are working against you from day one.
    Once bitten with the dream bug it’s hard to see reality because you are constantly being reminded that you have to “believe”. It’s very intoxicating.

  45. MustHaveBeenTerribleMother permalink
    August 16, 2012 8:43 am

    @Mike C: I agree wholeheartedly with what you wrote. I could see the almost-immediate “intoxication” in my son, a man usually a ‘negative Nelly’ about so much. Like I said elsewhere: he actually thought these people gave him the answers to all universal problems (aside: I thought he called me to talk about quark and string theory and dark matter—well, it was ‘dark matter’ alright!!).

    It took every ounce of my being to not slap him upside the head with crass comments and call him a deluded fool…., but even when I DID keep cool and respectful and simply began to recount what some of you have disclosed on here, THEN the all-out character asassination of myself was begun by him.

    Each day, I have to tell myself that it’s as you describe, i.e., so intoxicating to think about the comraderie, the potential income that will soon be generated without much work, the sense of community and being involved with like-minded people. etc….. that enticed him to shun his own family. of which he now purports to be: unenlightened, close-minded, non-visionary, poorly educated in all of the wrong things, and settling for mediocrity by have good-paying middle class jobs because we’re making companies rich off of our sweat, etc. He has the best of intentions, even if now his emotional level is worse than a 15 yr old’s. I can’t imagine the effect this “what’s wrong with my Daddy” will have on my grandchildren.

    My greatest fear: he ends up divorced and far worse than broke, etc., and will expect of me, because I love him more than life itself, that I will bail him out. I won’t. Time for consequences (as long as my grandchildren have the necessities and love).

  46. Speak Your Truth permalink
    August 16, 2012 9:53 am

    You getting this orrin woodward & the rest of you yes men? Another example of “your” beloved business system and “LIEF changing indoctrination./association”…it’s crystal clear it is life changing alright, more like a drug induced coma.. Just wondering when you all will “wake-up” and face the “brutal reality”…We know you read this daily so rather than “use this site” to refine your “objections” and hone your manipulation skills….Try facing reality and practice what all you liars preach! How many more “families” and “relationships” you plan on destroying? How many more in-your-face reality checks do you all need?

    Isn’t there enough evidence of posters and people to sever your conscience yet? Good lord, I thought you guys were guru’s and genius…. but just like your clone Deanna…Denial is your best friend..

    Way to go MustHaveBeenTerribleMother~ Clearly you understand the con game the fraudsters are playing. I would change your moniker to A Great Mother. Stick to your “tough love” and hang in there, keep sharing on here.

    It isn’t over yet, hopefully your son will “see” the truth without too much damage done to himself and those who really love him, but I have no doubt you will figure this out and will help your son, eventually, I wish you the best, we know it is very painful to watch and deal with, but don’t give in. Read Freedom of Mind website and Steve Hassans new book Freedom of Mind and everything you can get your hands on about Mind Control and undue influence. 🙂

  47. Brent Hansen permalink
    August 16, 2012 10:13 am

    I don’t know why I am posting this here, but it seems appropriate to share. Mark Yarnell, and industry icon, recently posted this comment on Facebook. I read through it 5 or 6 times then simply had to share it along with my comment to several good friends.

    Ironically, Mr. Yarnell’s comment is indicative of the thought process of 99% of those involved in these pernicious models. To answer a question posed previously on another thread of why the Government doesn’t step in, I respond with a question, why would the government cut off a major source of lobby money by actually intervening?

    The industry is no different from dozens of others who operate just inside the law, and are given immunity and exemption by virtue of campaign contributions, and other special considerations.

    “Brent Hansen
    Mark Yarnell (industry icon) could not have posted a more blatant piece of rubbish than this comment. At least the “corporate slop hogs” pay their employees a living wage for hours given, or services rendered. Unfortunatley, this is a faulty premise given the unbalanced weights and measures employed in this arena.

    Mark Yarnell
    “MLM is about the orderly transfer of wealth from political and corporate slop hogs to decent citizens with dreams of a better world. I want you to go watch the entire 20 minute version of The Story of Stuff in the link below. Remember, MLM is not the problem… it’s the solution. And please stop overreacting to the “pyramid” objection. That’s just propaganda spewed out by corporate elitists with a vested interest in keeping the public disoriented about our sustainable business model. Let’s all create enough wealth and time freedom to take back our world.”

  48. Speak Your Truth permalink
    August 16, 2012 10:57 am

    “Transfer of wealth”.. yep…from the bottom to the top..pretty accurate from my experience.

    So are they wanting a new ‘trendy’ name that would be more becoming of their all important ‘reputation vs. character’ or fake “postive” campaigning? Perhaps it would make them ‘feel better’ if the FTC were to call it “Pyramid Schemes”… “Transfer of Wealth Scheme?”

    You can’t clean up a bad reputation by using propaganda, TRUST when broken takes years, decades, sometimes never to gain back if you keep hiding…They underestimate the intelligence of the American people…they see right through the lip service, marketing schemes, hired reputation managers. Most are already on to that. 🙂

  49. Speak Your Truth permalink
    August 16, 2012 12:58 pm

    I should also mention the Truth being told through websites, books, lawsuits, comp plan analysis, etc via the internet sure make it difficult to snow others and cover-up their dirty little secrets. The truth is far reaching now, thanks to all those who are willing to share it! 🙂

  50. MustHaveBeenTerribleMother permalink
    August 16, 2012 2:01 pm

    Brent: does Yarnell realize he inadvertently called Orrin & Co. “corporate slop hogs”? LOL!!

  51. Vogel permalink
    August 16, 2012 2:12 pm

    Mark Yarnell: “MLM is about the orderly transfer of wealth from political and corporate slop hogs to decent citizens with dreams of a better world.”

    Orderly transfer of wealth? What the…??? The guy sounds like Chairman Mao. What is he even saying here? MLMs transfer wealth from consumers and downline distributors to the kingpins, so is Yarnell saying that the consumers and downline distributors are “political and corporate slop hogs” and that the kingpins are “decent citizens”? What I wouldn’t give to slap this imbecile upside the head with a sock full of manure.

    Yarnell: “And please stop overreacting to the ‘pyramid” objection’. That’s just propaganda spewed out by corporate elitists with a vested interest in keeping the public disoriented.”

    There he goes again with buzzwords like “propaganda” and “corporate elitists”. I’m surprised he didn’t refer to “comrades”, “the rise of the proletariat”, and “revolution”, and put it on a new CD called “The Great Leap Forward With TEAM”.

    Ah yes, those histrionic people who overreact to having doors slammed in their faces and being laughed at while trying to sell TEAMs pyramid scheme to a disoriented public — THAT is clearly the problem. They should just calm down and go numb because that’ll solve everything.

    Pfft! Clown!

  52. Speak Your Truth permalink
    August 16, 2012 2:20 pm


    Glad to see you back. Thanks for the laughs miss your straight forward truth and hurmor!

  53. MustHaveBeenTerribleMother permalink
    August 16, 2012 2:31 pm

    Vogel: see, I took it differently…I thought the good decent people were the poor LIFE bottom feeders and the Woodward Witches Cauldron of a Round Table were likely, in the end, ending up to be greedier, like the corporate slop hogs—hee hee. No offense meant to anyone who was there at one point in their life….just reacting to Yarnell.

    The rise of the proletariat……….next it’ll be down with the Bolsheviks, just to keep people confused…LOL!!!

  54. No Team For Me permalink
    August 16, 2012 5:08 pm

    Unfortunately, Orrin & crew have a history of trying to intimidate people through various means. One of his TEAM members was even on this site threatening physical violence against someone about 2 years ago.

    Read through the main sections on the top right of this site. Most of this information can be proven with your own research. But many of us were some of the top leaders in TEAM.

    One of the most important questions to ask is why would Orrin’s pastor no longer have any connection with Orrin? Why would Orrin’s former CEO of TEAM (who saw the truth of what really happened behind the scenes) leave such a high paying job with no new job lined up and have nothing to do with Orrin any more?

    Would some of the most respected leaders in Amway (Billy Florence, Mark Crawford, Chuck Goetschel, Lance Smith, Randy Haugen, etc) all walk away from Orrin and crew and want nothing to do with him during the trial when the truth was revealed about a lot of behind the scenes action that took place with Orrin and crew?

    Why was Tim Mark’s fined tens of thousands of dollars for withholding evidence during a trial? Is that a man of integrity?

    Why did Orrin fail to disclose to everyone that he had received $3 million from MonaVie when he was on stage telling people he would live in a trailer before he would allow anyone on his team to suffer?

    Why do they keep changing their name every 3-4 years and then acting like they are a brand new group of people with all kinds of new pins breaking, when it’s actually the same people being recognized for basically the same level with a new title in each new company?

    Why did they have well over 20,000 people at an event in Kentucky in 2007 and now have less than half of that at their majors? Is that massive growth? Or are the masses figuring out the lack of integrity?

    These people have the most warped view of ethics, honesty and integrity I have ever seen.

    All of the above are based on my personal opinions & beliefs and information available on the web.

  55. Brent Hansen permalink
    August 16, 2012 5:09 pm

    Its ironic that the transfer in MLM is to the same “corporate slophogs” which Yarnell insinuates don’t exist in MLM.

    Are Dallen Larceny and Brig Hartless corporate slop hogs? Absolutely! How about Sandra Tillotson, Devos and VanAndel, Blythe, Orrin & co.. The list of MLM “corporate slophogs” could go on for days, and is their really a difference which company the slophogs are attached to?


  56. Vogel permalink
    August 16, 2012 5:18 pm

    Ha! Someone probably pulled a prank on Yarnell and threw a Steven Covey jacket on the Little Red Book. ROFL. 🙂

    Sometimes, the absurdity of it all slays me…the rest of the time, I’m just sad for all of the victims.

  57. freedomhaha permalink
    August 16, 2012 6:30 pm

    No Team- Can you share more information about Marks and the trial? He was my upline (god), and I haven’t heard anything about that before. Thanks.

  58. MustHaveBeenTerribleMother permalink
    August 16, 2012 9:29 pm

    ‘SCUSE THE ALL CAPS, BUT THE WOODWARDIANS FOLLIES NEED TO BE CAPPED (ahem…in more ways than one, might I add)…



    THAT INSTEAD OF ONE BILLIONARE, THEY WOULD ALL SHARE AND MAKE EVERYONE MILLIONAIRES!! Was there somethin’ else in that leftover MV juice besides acai berries?

    And OMG!! He even compared the decisions George Washington had to make in the Revolution serendipitously to…… the genealogical “downline” to…..HIMSELF!! HE SAID: what would have happened had his own ancestors not immigrated!! (As if that had one friggin’ thing to do with something about land and George Washington–he kind of stumbled over that, I think, because, plebian that I am, I just couldn’t understand it. I think it was some half-assed attempt to say Washington was worried about manpower/preparedness and land size in carrying through a revolution?)

    Excuse me, I might be getting senile at this age, but the aforementioned comparison is kind of like soap-boxing yourself to be the savior of a nation. THIS EGOTISTICAL WOODTURD IS SURREPTITIOUSLY PLACING HIMSELF AS THE HEAD OF A REVOLUTION, A NEW NATION, A NEW EDUCATION SYSTEM.

    Message to Orrin: I do know this for a fact: if your ancestors had dumped either the one carrying the sperm or the one carrying the ovum overboard, in a few generations, we Americans would have been spared the Woodward inordinately-greedy bullshit and my son wouldn’t be brain-washed. Woodward, you are the MOST arrogant, narcissistic moron I have ever had the displeasure of listening to. .


    “WARNING! WARNING WILL ROBINSON!!” (from Lost in Space series)

    The last time we heard claptrap like this start….people ended up as toasted ashes, by the millions. Literally.

    This should tell ANY of us…we don’t need to believe/disbelieve anyone’s personal TEAM experience (if you don’t want to and don’t like the hidden identities)…..just listen to the gurus vomit their drivel right on U-tube…..

    They truly are dangerous business schemers who managed to lull in some very normal people and ruin their lives. WOODTURD EVEN SAID THIS: NO OTHER MLM COMPANY WOULD EVER BE AS GREAT AS HIS………DRUMROLL……BECAUSE THEY WOULDN’T HAVE CHRIS BRADY! (He said it like “naa-naa…naa-naa….na-na” while one would wiggle their fingers with thumbs in ears.)

    If this were allowed to continue for too many years/iterations, it would make the Woodie-ites some of the most dangerous automatons…those who, by then would likely just shoot, or make disappear those who don’t speak their speak or dream their dream. These types are what George Orwell had in mind.

    You think I’m exaggerating??!! Just ask your great-grandparents, if they are still alive, how DUPED many Americans were initially at what Hitler was up to. I happen to be 41 yrs younger than my own father—he would now be 102 and 1/2….the man who is the grandfather of one of TEAM.LIFEs newest duped family members. How disgusting and sad.

    EVEN WOODWARD AND HIS, UM, HISTORIANS MENTIONED THAT WE SHOULD LEARN FROM HISTORY (source: the Poohbah “Gizzard’s” own website)….okay, they finally got ONE thing right here.

  59. MustHaveBeenTerribleMother permalink
    August 16, 2012 9:36 pm

    @Brent: you said: Its ironic that the transfer in MLM is to the same “corporate slophogs” which Yarnell insinuates don’t exist in MLM.

    Yupper…that’s how I took it, too, when I read that excerpt. It was almost like an oxymoron.

  60. MustHaveBeenTerribleMother permalink
    August 16, 2012 10:11 pm

    Oops, sorry to AMTHRAX…I just realized my big 2011 U-tube post has nothing to do with the topic of home foreclosures…feel free to transfer it to the proper thread…crikey, I get so riled up each time I discover more of the truly dangerous underlying motives of LIFE, that I forget my etiquette and board rules.

  61. Ernie Robinson permalink
    May 1, 2017 5:56 pm

    Hello Amthrax.
    Who is priming your agenda? A TEAM competitor, perhaps?
    So what is your name address and net worth? Snidely pointing out foreclosures as supposed evidence of a moral TEAM failure during the 2008 real estate sub-prime mortgage debacle?Foreclosures wouldnt be hard to find in 2008, no matter who you wanted to ravage— 6-8 million people also lost their homes—- due to the entirely flawed real estate loan system!

  62. freedomhaha permalink
    May 10, 2017 10:32 am

    These “financial gurus” from stage were preaching that they purchased their homes in cash, so they wouldn’t need any loans.

  63. So Tired permalink
    July 4, 2021 12:22 pm

    LIFE Founder Bill Lewis sure does not like paying his debts. As of Today, he owes a total of $81,854.17 in taxes for the years 2018-2020 and a $5,792.91 utility bill on his home in Grand Blanc.
    There are two liens from the Home Owners Association. State liens, UCC liens and two Certificates of Forfeiture against Mr. Lewis.
    There was a lawsuit by the Township to stop the illegal business and major nuisance going on at his home (This home has just been sold).

    I thought Bill was a millionaire, so why all the problems with money? There is a lot more to this story.

    PS: Bill was also arrested for Domestic Assault and Battery on 5/20/2018.


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