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Orrin Woodward on Facts versus Experience

February 3, 2012

Orrin Woodward updated his about page with a manifesto on his LIFE leadership purpose. I want to draw attention to a curious change in one of his oft-used phrases:

A man with the facts is never at the mercy of a man with an opinion.

Has now been changed to (on February 3, 2012):

A man with experience is never at the mercy of a man with an opinion.

Which was later updated to (on February 4, 2012):

A man with experience (success over time) is never at the mercy of a man with an opinion (and no results.)

He used to use the former line often in the past, and his followers sure loved to quote him on it:

On the other hand, a search for ‘orrin woodward “man with experience”‘ reveals just 8 results.

So, why the change? Was it deliberate or coincidental?

Orrin goes on to say that he knows what he’s talking about. Yes, he does have experience building a large Amway/Quixtar business back in the 1990’s. It is arguable, however, that he doesn’t have experience building a large MonaVie business. That’s because his previous organization was more or less shoehorned into MV’s binary structure — and if you were to believe some of the ex-TEAM members commenting on this site, there were some serious re-arranging of groups going on during the time of the Amway/MonaVie transition. Similarly, the LOS for LIFE is probably an amalgam on the existing MonaVie and TEAM structures.

Orrin’s experience over the past decade has been one of maintenance, rather than growth. He’s kept the sandcastle in place by replacing people almost as fast as people leave. As such, he’s somewhat maintained his status as the King of the Mountain in the MLM world. In addition, his key lieutenants in LIFE are the same people who were with him in Amway/Quixtar.

Perhaps Orrin has to resort to experience because he’s lost his grip on the following facts:

The TEAM brainwashed will change their tune and say things like, “Well, uh, uh, the facts don’t count if the dream is big enough!” Where were you when Orrin was spouting, “A man with the facts is never at the mercy of a man with an opinion?”

More and more people are realizing that they have both the experience and facts to show that TEAM LIFE is a not a good business opportunity.

Readers, share your thoughts in the comments section below.

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71 Comments leave one →
  1. February 4, 2012 8:47 am

    Interesting how the (unoriginal) quotes seem to shift in order to maintain the perception that he’s in control.

    There’s nothing original nor special about Orrin Woodward that I would consider positive. I don’t even think he’s the greatest Huckster of our time, rather I put him in the same category as people barking from their booths at carnivals encouraging you to knock over milk bottles with a ball for a piece of crap $2 prize.

    He surrounds and insulates himself with syphocants in order to give his larger than life persona, it’s not because he’s wise or great. The minions are simply trained to see him that way.

    When you boil it down, he’s not really interesting or special, however I will concede he is quite good at selling sizzle without the steak. He’s so good at it that the mind numbed lackeys forget that they’re hungry for steak.

    Not what I’d want to be remembered for but meh….

  2. Speak Your Truth permalink
    February 4, 2012 9:56 am

    Rocket~

    Excellent post…I could have never said it better!

  3. Finally permalink
    February 4, 2012 1:56 pm

    LOL great post Rocket and well said. Here is some more food for thought. Not only is he not special but those that have their noses buried up his behind the farthest, Chris and Tim are actually…….well let’s just say not very bright. Chris does have his masters that he took from Gm and Tim, well Tim is Tim. But think of what Orrin has these guy’s doing. They as the PC are operating quite possibly as a criminal entity when they got together and deliberately stole people incomes. Now I am not legal beagle but I know a few guys in Prosecuting attorneys offices and other places and from a lot of speculation these “geniuses” may have committed crimes that could put them into the category of operating like the mafia therefore be subjected to the RICCO statutes…….Did you get that? You guy’s signed on, operated and colluded with Orrin and stole incomes as an entity, the PC. I bet Orrin never talked about that with you……how about when Orrin supposedly took Casey Combden’s advice on how to hide team income by putting shares of Team into leaders names without their knowledge? Do you think those transactions will stand up to scrutiny? Seriously, Orrin knew what he was doing even though his trusted teammates followed without question because they never thought their friend Orrin would steal, lie and cheat. How about Rob “I will wipe Orrin’s butt if he makes me” Hallstrand? He is a Cpa while commiting these acts. Only two people right now know what the team takes in and that is Orrin and Rob and they know how much Orrin takes and gives to the rest. And from what I can gather there is absolutely no formula other than Orrin.

    These quitters, liar’s and cheats have walked over, destroyed and mislead hundreds and thousands of people. Much of it in the name of our Lord (not for nothing but steer clear of them on judgment day) and that my Amthrax brethren and sister hood is about as bad as it gets. The stories on here are real, the names have been changed to protect the innocent. We know that Orrin is prepared for a civil suit. He will do what he learned from Q keep people tied up in court with his money, basically outlasting those that would dare to go against him………that may work……….how about the Fed’s O? Do you have more than them? Do you think that it will never happen? It may not, I am just speculating. But from where I sit people on this site should look into every contact they have in a position of the government, both local and federal and run these stories by them. Who knows we may all be proven wrong……I doubt it, but maybe……….and if we are right??????? Use your imagination……….Can you see the headlines? How about Orrin’s yacht going up for auction and a federal facility………Maybe we could all pitch in and buy it and rename it the Amthrax…….oh heck, like they say, you gotta see it to believe it………..

  4. Freedomhaha permalink
    February 4, 2012 3:24 pm

    You two guys are RIGHT ON! I have nothing to add!

  5. Vogel permalink
    February 4, 2012 3:48 pm

    Great suggestions Finally. Y’know, we could make a list of government agencies to contact and divvy up the list between the contributors here — make sure each agency gets a call at least once a week from 2 or more people. Just keep hammering until they have to take action. There’ wouldn’t be a damn thing O and his minions could do about it either; there’s no way to preempt or derail complaints to government agencies, and the confidentiality of any complaints filed is protected. I’d suggest starting with the FTC and CPB, and maybe a couple of state AG offices. Could add FBI and the FDA too. Might want to contact the authors of that Forbes’ article too — Emily Lambert and Klaus Kneale.

    I’ve been singing about class action lawsuits and RICO for a while now. I would LOVE to see that happen.

  6. Robin permalink
    February 4, 2012 3:55 pm

    Someone on here mentioned the book “All that Glitters is Not Gold”. I went to Amazon to buy it and there are many books with that title. Would someone please let me know who the author is.

    Thanks!

  7. Speak Your Truth permalink
    February 4, 2012 4:01 pm

    Finally~

    OMg you are killing me…Great Post!! 🙂

  8. Speak Your Truth permalink
    February 4, 2012 4:05 pm

    Robin~

    I believe you meant All That Glitters is Not God:Breaking Free of the Sweet Deceit of Multi-Level Marketing.. by Athena Dean

  9. Speak Your Truth permalink
    February 4, 2012 4:23 pm

    Vogel~ Great Idea!

  10. Speak Your Truth permalink
    February 4, 2012 7:19 pm

    Amthrax~

    I agree… We have the facts AND experience (probably a century or more)…so if someone is looking for them… you can find them both on http://www.amthrax.wordpress.com! 🙂

    So therefore, we are not at the mercy of those… Lie.f.ers; with an opinion. Obviously..orrin knows it too! Very interesting he is changing the quote..lol

    Keep up the great work, Amthrax!

  11. February 4, 2012 7:52 pm

    FYI: Orrin Woodward changed the sentence again in his About Page from:

    A man with experience is never at the mercy of a man with an opinion. I know what I’m talking about.

    to

    A man with experience (success over time) is never at the mercy of a man with an opinion (and no results.)

  12. February 4, 2012 8:04 pm

    Ha!

    How about a man with a business depending on keeping secrets is screwed!

    What a guy! His momma must be proud.

  13. Speak Your Truth permalink
    February 4, 2012 8:45 pm

    Hahahahaha, Who does he thinks he is kidding?

    Well it still stands…and is all on Amthrax…He must not realize how foolish he makes himself look?.

    Geez, he needs to ‘be the example’…. get out there and grow them numbers, the same thing he insist everyone else do.They don’t seem to be growing or least forward and he spends way too much time on damage control, WOW, changing quotes are top priority..hahaha?

    If the ‘business opportunity’ is so great; as great as they say it is; it will stand up to any and all scrutiny! Then no one would have to spend the TIME changing the quotes to ‘try’ and do any damage control.

  14. Speak Your Truth permalink
    February 4, 2012 8:54 pm

    That is Too funny….Mr.Desperado.

  15. webelieved permalink
    February 4, 2012 11:22 pm

    Great find Amthrax! Thanks for the laughs Speak!

    Results are everything……………… in High Performance, Commercial Cults. Right Orrin?
    Just my humble opinion. 🙂

  16. webelieved permalink
    February 4, 2012 11:25 pm

    Isn’t it funny how he always has to toot his own horn.
    It’s like the Wizard of Oz! Lmao!

  17. TruthSeeker permalink
    February 5, 2012 5:56 am

    Hilarious! And since your reading this thread Orrin, please define success for us? Apparently you believe success is a couple of people who make an an opulent amount of money as others have their homes foreclosed on, cars repossessed, and bills stack up from being involved with Life.

    Come on! Is that true success? Why not get serious with your model, sit down and gather some of the current income and economic data that we all know exists within your team, and then design your model to change the dynamics for everyone? It is possible within the confines of a structure like yours to have your cake and eat it too, it merely requires thinking way out of the box. It also requires leadership who really wants to make changes with actions backed by a plan and not just empty words.

    The world is getting smaller Orrin and people are becoming more informed. The same old regurgitated idioms, hogwash and rhetoric of the past will not work in today’s market place. It is time for you to boldly go where no one has been willing to because of greed.

    Call me a critic if you will, but your model is destined for failure. It cannot last long-term because the foundation is built upon principles that are in direct violation of God’s laws. I believe that although many think you walk on water Orrin that you too are subject to the law of gravity. You are also subject to the law of the harvest as well, and you will reap what you have sown, that fact cannot change.

    So I will rephrase your quote to reflect the true nature of what needs to be understood, here you go: A man with TRUTH is never at the mercy of a man living a LIE. Have a great Sabbath day!

  18. webelieved permalink
    February 5, 2012 6:28 am

    “A man with TRUTH is never at the mercy of a man living a LIE”.- Truthseeker

    Awesome!

  19. Finally permalink
    February 5, 2012 11:27 am

    Vogel great idea!! i will look into my home state and look up the author’d opt the Forbe’s article. I have asked some professionals about the Class action and that doesn’t seem to be the way to go. Ricco however………..is a whole different ball game, and you are absolutely right about there not being a thing they can do. The evidence is hard evidence. I have spoken with at least 5 people that have had their incomes taken away and every single one of them have Emails, letter’s, text messages and some even have voice mails. These guys are really not that smart when you think about it. How many people were in the room when they forced them to sign the profit sharing agreements under DURESS…..yes Orrin and the rest that read this blog, we have looked into this legally and your mafia like tactics will be exposed. What kind of a Quality company would do that to people, have them sign a contract and not let them take a copy, read it and sign it or lose your team profit sharing? You guys are the total opposite of what you claim and the whole world will hear it in detail before you get through your million people………Tim and Amy will be exposed…….Orrin and Laurie and also Chris and Terri as well as George and Jill. There is sooooooooo much evidence agains each and every one of them it is scary. I mean sending a guy a text and say “hey buddy you’ve been voted out of profit sharing, your next check will be your last” Did you really think that was the smartest thing to do Tim? Let’s not even tackle if it was the right thing to do. And while we are at it how about the things that they did to Pastor Dcikie and his church?? That is dangerous dangerous ground……..They know they are wrong but they will not give up their paychecks not matter what they sell out to. And what about their wives?? The most unreal, fake, lying, mean, and screwed up women I have ever been associated with. I thought Leona Helmsley was a snake………..these gal’s sell out their best friends for their lifestyle. That is sick. I heard about Denise Wrobleski getting ousted and slandered by Dolores Martin and from what their team mates say Dolores is no better than the rest of them. They can’t handle their perceived success. The Martins could not even afford health insurance recently so they had to pay cash for their son’s broken arm. According to the team mate that told me this also said that Jim was extremely pissed about having to pay for it………i guess when they say on CD when they are questioned about “what they will do for Benefits?” and they say “We will just buy them” isn’t ringing true……….It must suck to build a business for 11 years and be further behind then when you had the J O B, you know the just over broke…….

  20. Speak Your Truth permalink
    February 5, 2012 3:03 pm

    TruthSeeker~

    Awesome post! They can’t and won’t win against the Truth! It trumps all the lies and spinning you and your minions will ever conjure up. When will they learn this lesson and come clean?!

  21. Robin permalink
    February 5, 2012 3:04 pm

    Thanks Speak!

  22. Speak Your Truth permalink
    February 5, 2012 6:04 pm

    Your Welcome 🙂

  23. Chris permalink
    February 6, 2012 3:19 am

    Have been on team for several months now. Have witnessed some really good leaders on team. I have never met top leaders personally. I joined team for several reasons. they gave me an opportunity for better results in life. There whole system is based on living intentionally for excellence. I realize that Team is not perfect, still a work in progress. I like to see both sides of an argument. There are a.lot of people on team doing fairly well, as it seems.

    The information is in a system, u get points for reading books. This to me is a.great idea, the 8 fs are a great idea, leveraging your time with cds is a.great idea. However some of the cds are more or less the same. Some of the books like Freedomshift are.very thought provoking. I read resolved and basically is a summary of what Orrin Woodward learned and what he.learned from other people. The book was very applicatable. I was at.last major and he speaks highly of having integrity and being honest in most of his speaches. That is what made me stay in. Sometimes I have doubts about team, because sometimes they say don’t look at the negative comments on the internet, yet they teach about freedom and they didn’t say.they were lies.

    I am also a Christian. Tim Marks preached at service at major which was very good. He told the truth as it is in the gospel. The leaders of my individual team who met Orrin and other leaders on team stated many times that Orrin is a very Godly man and other top leaders have stated that also as of theirselves also about their testimonies. They state that is there # 1 priority. Jesus is all about truth and he warns.us about false prophets. I measure what they say and match it to the Bible, most things they say are good things.compared to the bible.However what u do and what u say are two things. Integrity and character they preach very often on team So is the compensation plan perfect, no. is thr team perf t, no. Did I hear good things, yes, was I promised anything.yes, if I worked hard and.did what.they said I would be rewarded. Well I havent gotten there yet. Did they say it would be.easy, no. The motivation is.meant for the average person to believe that to have confidence to love there purpose and to go for there dreams. Many people lack focus and.motivation to do that be theirselves. So whats wrong with that? That person is ultimately u, but since Ive been on team I have been more focused on my purpose and on my dreams. How many people have.given up and lost purpose? A lot of people, u can see it. Im not putting my hope in Orrin, I put my hope in Jesus Christ. His values that.he puts out there we need more of in our society. We need communities also. Im in team for the values they say they stand for, amother income coming in, information with common based principles, the commaderee and friendships and yes I like the speaches and positive atmosphere. Yes there might be fakes in the group and dishonesty and I will face them, but I’m not going to talk about it on the outside about things I don’t really know about, I will face.them in the organization. Theres too much corruption in America and honest people need to take it back. I’m just a common young man and I hope that youare wrong about Orrin and the team. I don’t believe they are deceiving me, if they are they are really good at it and they are a.bunch of posers. I do like the model and we do need leadership in our country and most of all integrity. A lot of the leaders talk about the movie ” Courageous ” which talks about doing the right.thing no matter what. Why would they teach us that? If orrin was corrupt and.the leaders it.would seem to me that they want to be found.out, but if they are looking out for peoples best interests and having integrity u have your own personal agenda. So what do I believe? I believe Orrin is human, we all can succumb to temptation, but there is a chance for redemption and that is repentance and c hanging ones course. I believe Orrin is leading in the right direction, and if I see him going contrary to what he says I will find a.way to confront him. I pray for Orrin and the.team because I think he has a good.idea, and I pray that he has integrity and keeps.his word and.tells the.truth.

    l

  24. February 6, 2012 7:41 am

    @Chris – Why don’t you ask your leaders the questions posed on this site? If they respond back with, “Don’t believe everything you read on the Internet,” respond back with, “Why then, should I believe the pro-TEAM/LIFE posts on the Internet?”

    Some facts presented on this site are pretty indisputable. Ask them about those (i.e. foreclosures, bankruptcies, anonymous blogging).

  25. February 6, 2012 8:20 am

    @Chris – Another thing I want to clear up is that we’re not debating the desire to improve oneself (if you will, in the 8F’s). What we’re arguing is that business opportunity surrounding LIFE does not stand on solid ground. Most people will lose money in LIFE, just like they did with MonaVie and Amway/Quixtar. To have the leaders stand up on stage, on tapes, in house meetings and say that you can become financially free in 2-5 years by listening to TEAM tools and buying/selling LIFE products is deceptive. Behind the rhetoric are the aforementioned foreclosures and bankruptcies.

  26. February 6, 2012 9:09 am

    Chris, why care about points for buying the book? Woody couldn’t care less whether you read it as long as you buy it from him. Go to a library and read the book he recommends. If his intentions for your success are pure, he won’t care where you get the book. Test it. Your upline response will be very telling.

    How on earth is listening to CD’s “leveraging” your time? You know what would really leverage time? Not going to the seminars.

    As far as motivation, there are THOUSANDS of motivational speaker that have a much greater success rate than Woody, and are much more recommended. Funny thing that nobody seems to recommend Woody, Baby, Clod, and Mr. Strategic Default etc…after they are done with them. You don’t get that attitude very much with real motivational speakers.

    LIFE is a sham and isn’t designed to make you better, it’s to make the aforementioned folks $$$$.

    I wish you well, but do ask the tough questions. The responses will guide you. This is of course giving you the benefit of the doubt that you still think for yourself.

  27. switch permalink
    February 6, 2012 9:11 am

    Chris-
    I’ll start from the beginning of some of your comments….

    “I realize that Team is not perfect, still a work in progress. I like to see both sides of an argument. There are a.lot of people on team doing fairly well, as it seems.”

    Really, Chris? Have you really looked at BOTH sides of the argument?….. The truth is no. No, you haven’t looked at both sides, Chris. Because if you had, you’d definitely see that this forum has been flooded with comments certainly not in your favor.

    “The information is in a system, u get points for reading books. This to me is a.great idea, the 8 fs are a great idea, leveraging your time with cds is a.great idea. However some of the cds are more or less the same.”

    Are you out of your flipping mind? “leveraging your time with cds”???? Do you tell your new recruits that some of the cds are “more or less the same”? I highly doubt it.

    Step number one, Chris….be honest with yourself.

  28. February 6, 2012 9:54 am

    Tim Marks preaching????? The devil won that day. Tim would’nt know that gospel if it slapped him in the face.

  29. Former Round Table permalink
    February 6, 2012 10:08 am

    One of the reasons that wolves in sheep’s clothing are dangerous is because…they look like harmless sheep. Chris, take it from one who knows these people better than most. They preach integrity but live entirely different. Orrin believes that the ends justify the means. He truly thinks that it is okay to lie, deceive and manipulate people if they are also brought to Christ. Where is that found in the Bible? Maybe the Book of Orrin, but nowhere else.

    These people are evil and corrupt, but they paint themselves with the color of righteousness. They are no better than “Honest John” the used-car salesman. Sure you will learn some great stuff if you stick with Team, but you could do the same or better elsewhere.

    Good luck.

  30. webelieved permalink
    February 6, 2012 10:23 am

    Chris- Why don’t you ask to see their tax returns for a profit and loss statement, or how about the Team LIFE profit and loss statements, after all they claim it is your business ? While your at it ask how many out of likely hundreds of thousands of people milled through Team made it to PC? What is it only 7 or 8 ? We know this is the case, so their system isn’t so proven is it?

    Don’t you wonder why it says in the LIFE contract that the PC can take your teams and income away? Which by the way they have done to quite a few after bringing in hundreds if not thousands of people and income to Team and the PC.

    What about the fact the LIFE contract says members cannot show their tax returns ?

    Do these behaviors look like what true honest Christians would do to their members or could they be hiding something from you? Could it be possible that commenters on here whom have known Woodward for years up close and personal may know more than you?

  31. Over and Out permalink
    February 6, 2012 10:38 am

    Chris, it is so easy to be blinded by the CD’s and the seminars and such. Almost every single person on this site has been at one point or another in there lives. Sadly, these people (team people)are not your friends. They do not care about you one bit. Test it out. I’m sure you are told how awesome you are constantly and it makes you feel good right? The next person it will be the same story with. It never changes and it becomes robotic after awhile. Trust me. My husband was best friends with our upline, and since we quit do you think he has heard from him?Not one time! As far as them being Godly, Ask them (the PC and many of the RT’s) about there spirtual mentor for many years,and what they have done to him and his church? Chris, there are people you are looking up to that have gone through bankruptcy within the last couple years and you are taking financial advice from them! It all sounds good, but they do not practice what they preach. I’m sure you have heard them say to replace yourself. This is true, but not for your benefit. They know that eventually you will quit because your smart but they just want to make sure that enough people have signed up to keep numbers up for system counts, not for you Chris, but for them. And then they do it again to the next person. And no matter how much money you might make, they can take it away from you whenever they decided. Which is written about in many places in here and proven. So as you are hearing them talk about how unsecure the 40 hr job is, remember that. Also Chris, the people you are hearing speak at Tuesdays do not have results. Some maybe, but let me just tell you that our upline was/is a wonderful speaker, has a way with words, you know what I am saying. We were in his second team and for 6 months there wasn’t a single person added below us and he was speaking! People couldn’t wait till the break to shake his hand. Chris, those are hands of liars! Now I know that you are being told not to listen to us. But I urge you to start asking more questions. You will find that your upline will not have the answers and will refer you to a CD, that doesn’t really answer your question ,just gets you motivated enough to forget about it for while, but stay strong and keep asking questions. I sincerely wish you the best Chris. And I pray that you will find the answers you need.

  32. Chris permalink
    February 6, 2012 10:40 am

    You have valid points. What is Orrin Woodwards purpose then? His business of Life is about combining 4 industries and helping other people become leaders and improve their lives. The most important value to me is faith. So tell me whatz wrong with that? Your acting like hes the devil in disguise. Theres a gentlman on the team selling windows and since hes been using the model of team his business is booming. He is an outsider, also giving more proof that it works. So your telling me that everyone is lying. Success takes hard work. Again my main thing is if it works for people and its honest, I will at least give it a shot. Look I get the life series and have borrowed some cds in the leadership series. I have found these to have valuable info in and they are not all the same, some are similar. Some are, I beleive because guess why, because the new person hasnt heard them yet. If Orrin is preaching about integrity more so and saying were going to do this right. If he isnt doing that, why would he emphasise that so much? People are going to hold him more accountable and pay closer attention to those things. Basically if hes being dishonest, u think someone would have had the courage to say something at a team event or a top leader leaving and pointing out these things not on the internet, but in real life. This is why I dont care for the internet. Its not real hard to get to meet Orrin, go powet player. I will ask my upline since they go power player a lot. What ? s u want me to address to Orrin? If hes dishonest like u say he is people will find out. I have not found that true, no one asked me to do something dishonest so far. I read a John Maxwell book saying the #1 in business is integrity, without it, it will fail. Sorry its hard to see that this busisness is failing, lots of positive changing stories, the business is growing, 2 stadiums for major. If its just hype, Im going to need a little more proof. Id lik e to find out and am still looking to ask some tough ?s to my upline, matter fact, let me know if u have any suggestions. I will let my conscience be my guide not the system. Chris Brady wrote the book “Rascal ” Ive heard the cd, but havent read the book. I am willing to learn new things from the team, but even on the team I will always have a conscience and be a rascal for good, love and truth.

  33. February 6, 2012 10:40 am

    @Chris

    I agree with you totally…I witnessed some great leaders on the Team stage as well. The problem was, they were not transparent; they are different people behind the scenes than they are on stage. They’re the devel in disguise, so to speak.

    I wholeheartedly agree with the message they preach…better yourself, serve others and follow the example of Christ. I think all of us on this web site are searching for the kind of honesty and integrity that Orrin and his minions profess on stage. It felt great to belong to a group that I felt did what was right, even if it cost them. Unfortunately, Woodward, Brady and Marks, don’t practice what they preach.

    It took my husband and I 8+ years to figure this out. We didn’t want to believe that the leaders we had looked up to were feeding us a line and that we had bought it, hook, line and sinker for so many years. Don’t make the same mistake we made.

    Some things to ponder:

    1. Team used to have monthly seminars only on months when there wasn’t a major (3 majors and 9 regular seminars a year). Team has now re-instated the monthly seminars, even in months when a major occurs. In addition, they’ve added a major, resulting in 4 majors and 12 seminars per year. Assuming a cost of $25/seminar and $125/major, that’s an increase cost of $200/Team member/year, not to mention that they also now have more opportunities to sell you stuff in the tool room. Ask yourself why they might do this. After all, isn’t this cutting down on the number of nights you can be out “running the roads”? Is it for your benefit or theirs?

    2. In keeping with the times, Team is now utilizing Webcasts. While this saves people from needlessly driving all over the state/country, is that the main purpose? If so, why do they still charge the same amount to attend a Webcast as they charge to attend the live event? They are obviously saving big bucks by not having to rent out so many venues each month and the cost of a Webcast is miniscule, so where is the money going? Is it going into your pocket or theirs?

    3. Consider the recent bankruptcy filings by the Hubers, the Darkangelos and the Cullins, and the strategic loan default orchestrated by the Guzzardos. The financial difficulties of these so-called leaders should send up a red flag to anybody with half a brain. Are these really the people you want to take financial advice from? Either these ”leaders” didn’t follow the advice of their upline and spent money they didn’t have (“if come” money), in which case they’re not living what they preach from stage, or worse yet, they DID follow the advice of their upline and didn’t go out and find a job when they needed the income because the leaders didn’t want it to look like the Team wasn’t successful. Who stands to lose the most if the Team is not viewed as successful? Is it you, making little or nothing, or is it the big leaders who would do anything to maintain their little empires and elegant lifestyles?

    4. Have you ever worked your butt off to qualify for a chance to “get around your upline leaders” and then had to shell out some of your hard-earned cash to pay for the event? In what world does this make sense? First of all, in order to qualify for the event, you’ve moved tickets, systems, gone Power Player, etc., all of which have already padded your upline’s pockets. Then, to add insult to injury, you also have to pay to participate in the event! It doesn’t add up. If your upline is making the kind of money they brag about (and shove in your face during every dream building talk), can’t they afford to share the wealth with those who made it all possible and spring for a pizza party, or a paintball session, or even a shark fishing trip?

  34. Over and Out permalink
    February 6, 2012 10:57 am

    Chris, also wanted to add that I do give you credit for reading this and posting on here. 6 months ago I never would have read any of this, I thought these people were crazy (no offense) and were only on here because they didn’t have any results and they were mad! Well that was until I personally witnessed some really horrible things! And then I personally met some people that everything was take from them, everything they had worked so hard for and I realized many people on this site went through that same thing. So I commend you (as people on team say) for that. In all seriousness though. Just remember that if you continue on your journey with Team we will support you. We were there once, and Team will support you. But when you quit, we will still support you, and TEAM will not.

  35. February 6, 2012 10:58 am

    @Chris – Two stadiums for a major? Nationwide Arena is a stadium, but the last time I checked, the Visalia Convention Center is not a stadium. Orrin himself tweeted that there were just under 1500 people in Visalia.

    We’d be happy to provide you with a longer list of questions to ask the TEAM/LIFE leaders. In the meantime, why don’t you read the LIFE TEAM Primer and start with those?

  36. switch permalink
    February 6, 2012 11:36 am

    “The most important value to me is faith.”

    LOL, could’ve fooled me, ….but no, it IS NOT ABOUT FAITH. Mixing your faith and business is absolutely ludicrous. So no, it’s not all about faith with you. There’s more to it then that isn’t there?

    “If hes dishonest like u say he is people will find out.”

    Reeeeaaaalllllyyy?????? What exactly do think is going on here, Chris?

  37. Chris permalink
    February 6, 2012 11:56 am

    Ill check into it..however if your telling me the truth about the honesty part, I will spread that news. As Orrin would say ” U have to face brutal reality”. Which I am doing. Truth is for me getting people into this business is harder than I thought. A lot of people on my team are though. I want to win, and succeed in life, however id rather have a good.name, than great riches. My purpose now is to ask?s , which the team envourages. I will find answers. I decided to wait to July to make a decision if im right for the.team. One thing if team is corrupt like amything else it will fail.A simple way to fight team. Use their own philosphy that they teach. Remember its going to take courage! Like i said if the?s arent answered. Im not going to.stand.in silence.

  38. Chris permalink
    February 6, 2012 12:11 pm

    making money in a business is not evil, if u do it in the right way. Preachers get payed, if they have integrity more power to them. I dont like bad mouthing people on internet, u could say anything. Your info on team is very convincing, I have to find out for myself. Believe me Im not going to back down. I will talk to leaders in my individual team. I will get answers!

  39. Vogel permalink
    February 6, 2012 12:26 pm

    You’re on the right track Chris and at least you’re going in with your eyes partially open. My prediction…it won’t take long before you’ll verify what’s been said here and you will be back here agreeing wholeheartedly. In the meantime, good luck and try not to let them burn you too badly.

  40. Speak Your Truth permalink
    February 6, 2012 12:42 pm

    Chris~

    I commend you for your willingness to seek the truth. Let us know how your questions get answered. You might want to find the comments on here by “not signed up yet”; he has asked the hard realistic common sense business questions, that anyone that everyone has a right to know but never has been “successful” at getting any answers.

    Warning: If they answer your questions with a question or distract and divert and hand you a Cd, to answer them, (that is what they are trained to do)..then their lies your answers.

    There are many ways to “win and succeed” (you define), in life without having to lie, cheat, steal and deceive; to obtain it.

    I trust that you are a good person and wouldn’t want to find out later that is what is done, so I believe you will find what you are seeking. Good Luck.

  41. Chris permalink
    February 6, 2012 1:41 pm

    switch: Whats going on here? Chraracter assasination. Same thing going on in politics. Im not into it. Im heRe to confront the truth, however im not here to bash peoples character.

  42. Speak Your Truth permalink
    February 6, 2012 2:14 pm

    Chris~

    Here some things to ask. First Read the Team Lief P&P’s, the dividends you will reap (by reading that alone) should help create some serious questions, and will save you years of wasted time, money, heart ache, and effort.

    Ask Orrin; why they have lied to you, when they told you: “It is ‘your’ business, and they are ‘teaching’ you how to build a B-type business. Ask.. Why they can take your income if you own it; any time for any reason, including you commenting on this site?!!

    While you’re asking those questions have Orrin explain this one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tAxkLZWHRdw

    There is so much in this video; that creates questions to be asked:

    Why did he say; “He isn’t in fact not interested in ANY money he has to ‘show up’ to do?” When in reality he ‘shows up’ to every major, many other events, and every plan he has to and has for almost 2 decades, to continue to ‘replace’ those people he either has booted or he loses because they figured it out and quit.

    But more importantly; Why would he want YOU to continue the duration of your building the business to replace; (the majority) of people whom you will put in. What is the attrition rate? How is the money made and HOW many people in the Team LIEf do not ‘show up’;to get paid and are still drawing that (b-type) income they did the work for; without their incomes being stolen from them?..the…B-type, pipeline, passive, residual, ongoing, willable, for the rest of your life, income?

    Here is another question; Why do they tell you, you own your own business when Orrin tells people “you don’t own your customers” (as in the Peters story) What do you own who gets paid for them when Orrin decides to keep the customers and continues to and who rakes in the revenue off them when he boots those leaders out of profit-sharing?

    They tell you that you are not an ’employee’ and then why isn’t he promoting the ‘peanut butter and chocolate’ =Team + Monavie anymore? Why Amway (where he began orignially that he NEVER mentions, intentionally), then Quixtar was the “b-type pipeline”…”Best Business Bar None” and then sued them after well over a decade for being a “pyramid scheme with hopelessly overpriced products?” But only told the masses to “keep building” the entire time, never, ever mentioning it was a Pyramid Scheme!

    Here is the truth, Chris..Orrin owns ‘the system’, Not you; so the b-type, pipeline income for You, is a LIE and you aren’t an ’employee’ because they can hide behind the MLM banner and are risking or taking their chances of not being caught or being policed by those who would hold them accountable for all the shenanigans and lies they tell. They also don’t want to be required to ‘pay’ you as an ’employee’. Hope you stay persistant and don’t settle for the games they Will play trying not to answer your questions. Good Luck!

  43. webelieved permalink
    February 6, 2012 2:28 pm

    Chris- I commend you for that.
    Of course team has taught you not to be negative. The very nature of a destructive group is deception so I am not sure how you will see through that. I would recommend you ask more than one person your questions and write the answers down. I also would recommend you get in touch with an exmember if possible if you are truly wanting both sides of the team story. Be especially aware of how you are treated after asking questions, as you will likely be shunned by the group.

    Also watch for character asssassination of ex members, or of critics. A healthy group would not need to hide critical information or attack our character, which is done over and over. In fact if the stories on this site are true, and they are, a Christian would offer a written apology and pay restitution for the damages done, and turn the other way, right?

    By the way many people here have been deeply wounded financially, time lost with loved ones, etc by the people you are standing up for, they have also been attacked repeatedly by Team supporters, so you will have to pardon our directness. If you are truly looking you can find the answers or like Speak said the unanswers you are looking for.
    I agree with Amthrax a good start on information would be reading the LIFE PRIMER.

    Some questions I have for you.
    If the stories here are not real, than who would we be and what would be our motives be for writing them?
    Why would we waste our precious time?
    Good luck in your search.

  44. February 6, 2012 3:16 pm

    You can ask Orrin why he was telling or having others tell people he paid cash for his Grand Blanc mansion when he had a mortgage a at the time. He now seems to be big on handing out land contracts on the property to his downline. You can search his name yourself on the public records website for genesee county michigan. Typing from a phone or I would provide the link.x

  45. webelieved permalink
    February 6, 2012 3:58 pm

    http://www.co.genesee.mi.us/rod/SimpleQuery.asp
    There are all types of interesting documents under Orrin Woodward.

  46. webelieved permalink
    February 6, 2012 4:09 pm

    Recorded: 12/22/2010 2:46:31 PM Prepared: 12/01/2010 Mailed: 02/17/2011 Pages: 2
    Document Type: MEMO ,AMEND,AGREE OF LC Interest: Consideration:
    Grantor: TOPGALLANT MANAGEMENT LLC
    Grantee: WOODWARD, ORRIN A / WOODWARD, LAURIE A

    12323 WASHBURN RD

    Must be Brady’s dream home he built and then for some reason a few years later sold it to the Woodwards? Is this also a land contract?

  47. webelieved permalink
    February 6, 2012 4:13 pm

    I believe this was his spanish mansion as he calls it. If you notice this happened the same day as Brady sold Woodward his dream home on the lake. (above)

    Recorded: 12/22/2010 2:47:12 PM Prepared: 12/01/10 Mailed: 02/17/2011 Pages: 2
    Document Type: MEMO ,AMEND,AGREE OF LC Interest: Consideration:
    Grantor: WOODWARD, ORRIN A / WOODWARD, LAURIE A
    Grantee: LEWIS, WILLIAM P / LEWIS, JACQUELINE S

    WARWICK WOOD CONDOMINIUM,

  48. webelieved permalink
    February 6, 2012 4:29 pm

    It is interesting to note there are many deeds registered under Tim Marks, Chris Brady, and Orrin Woodward. Should be fun to hear what you smart people can find. 🙂

    Here is the working link to check it out.
    http://www.co.genesee.mi.us/rod/Navigate.asp?SimpleSearch.x=88&SimpleSearch.y=12

  49. webelieved permalink
    February 6, 2012 4:34 pm

    My question is why would Chris Brady give up his estate that was built specifically for his family, with a soccer field, lake and all? Remember the BUG IN YOUR EAR DVD?
    When we were in they made such a big deal out of him building his dream home.
    Hmm…….
    Same with Orrin, It was reported he put one and half million into the yard, why would he sell it to the Lewis’ ? Perhaps he was bailing out his friend?

  50. Freedomhaha permalink
    February 6, 2012 7:35 pm

    Chris- I support you on your quest for the truth. I came here with the same mission and if you have read previous threads you know what side I am on. We are here for you when you make the right decision. The others can speak to this more than myself, but the first couple weeks are the worst when you realize the cloud you have been living in. I will tell you that it is great to get your own brain (and $) back.

    God Bless!

  51. February 6, 2012 9:02 pm

    Sold house #2 to on a land contract to Douglas Huber which eventually was completed. Looks like that one went into a sheriff’s sale in 2010 while owned by Huber.

    Bought house #3 for 1.075M from Villegas family. Took out 860K mortgage in 2001 which is 80% of the value of the house – good job no PMI. At some point after this was when people were claiming he had no mortgage on this house. Mortgage was discharged in 2004 so it was paid off quickly. Has a $931 lien on house 3 from an insulation company that doesn’t look like it discharged. If so, that will have to get resolved when the house sells. House 3 was put on land contract with William and Jacqueline Lewis 12/10.

    He’s on the other side of the land contract terms on house 4. House 1 was sold to the May family in 1995.

    He put two houses on land contract with people in his downline. With friends like Orrin who needs a realtor? Did they get a good deal? Were they “encouraged” to buy these houses? It would be interesting to see the terms of the land contracts but those don’t show on the site.

  52. das permalink
    February 7, 2012 1:11 am

    Both properties are listed for delinquent taxes. I believe Orrin got the Columbiaville house back in 2011. A person would think that since Team is “EXPLODING” they could at least pay their taxes. lmao

    “Spanish Mansion”

    “Columbiaville House”

  53. webelieved permalink
    February 7, 2012 2:28 am

    das and dh- Great finds! I wonder if someone could find Brady’s property in FL. Someone reported one of the leaders bought it, possibly Birtles, and may lose it? Of course Orrin’s followers don’t know any of this. 😦

  54. webelieved permalink
    February 7, 2012 2:32 am

    das- I just checked the links and it says no delinquent taxes 2010-prior, so that means they are delinquent for 2011?

  55. webelieved permalink
    February 7, 2012 2:35 am

    Did anyone notice some of the names registered on the deeds are the Nevada companies listed under
    https://amthrax.wordpress.com/2011/11/23/the-many-companies-of-orrin-woodward-chris-brady-and-tim-marks/

  56. I QUIT (and glad I did) permalink
    February 7, 2012 4:51 am

    Hey Chris- If you dissect this whole site and all the info offered, you will find there is no character assassination happening here. In order for that to occur there would need to be character available to work with.

  57. switch permalink
    February 7, 2012 6:34 am

    Which part of the truth do you want to confront here, Chris….. ???

    Straight off wiki’s page.

    In spring of 2008, Larsen formed a business partnership with former Amway distributor (Quixtar in the US) Orrin Woodward, founder of an Amway distributor sales network company known as TEAM. Woodward subsequently became a distributor and speaker for MonaVie, mixing his TEAM organization structure and distributor sales tools (e.g. sales brochures, audio/video recordings, etc.) concept with MonaVie’s compensation plan. In 2008, Forbes magazine reporters Emily Lambert and Klaus Kneale noted:

    “TEAM is one step ahead of all these juice selling schemes. It is a pyramid atop a pyramid. It is selling motivational aids to help MonaVie vendors move the juice. But wait. If you can’t earn back the $258 you’ve spent on the motivational lectures by selling $39 juice bottles, you could earn it back in another way—getting people to buy $258 motivational lectures. If you’re good, you flog the lectures to other people, who sell them to yet others. Everybody gets rich. Everybody, that is, except the last round of buyers. That’s the theory, anyway. The reality is that a mere 1% of Team members make any money from involvement with the firm.”

    Regarding pyramid scheme issues, Lambert and Kneale elaborated:

    ”In a 1979 regulatory action involving [Amway], the Federal Trade Commission attempted to draw lines between legitimate and fraudulent pyramids. The ones that are legit focus on getting revenue from consumer goods sold to retail customers. The FTC did not, however, define ‘retail’ in that case. That leaves plenty of wiggle room for guys like Orrin Woodward; he counts the vast majority of people in his pyramid, who seemingly try but fail to make money, as retail customers.”

    Would this be confronting the truth or character assassination, Chris?

  58. humiliated permalink
    February 7, 2012 6:39 am

    Chris, good for you for doing what ANY savvy business person would do, and that is to do some research on the business they are about to get involved in. I really and truly wish that more people would do that and, if they still choose to become involved after having all of the FACTS, then so be it.

    I know you consider this a business but it is as Brent and Mike often call it, ‘a wealth distribution” system. And, it is not distributed to the hardworking folks at the bottom of the pyramid. This is a scheme of the worst kind because not only is it fundamentally a pyramid scheme, but the people here have indicated that they HAVE been at the top and that wealth is distributed on Orrin’s whim. The back door deals are clear and there appears to be documentation. It truly is like being in the mafia, but at least the mafia is clear on what they do, these guys make you believe that you are involved in a Christian based organization with the highest of moral standards, and their behavior and conduct proves that this is simply not true.

    You said something pretty amazing and insightful on several levels “Truth is for me getting people into this business is harder than I thought. A lot of people on my team are though. I want to win, and succeed in life, however id rather have a good.name, than great riches.”.

    The first statement is very honest of you, thank you for that. Let’s think about why this is though. People are becoming more educated on MLM scams and, particularly ones that use religion as a “hook”. TEAM/LIEF meets all of the criteria of a commercial cult by definition. The people that you approach haven’t been “love bombed” and lied to about how much they make. they are going to stay as far away from this as possible. At this point, all Orrin & Co. care about is that YOU keep spending your money on LIEF. They tell you to get others in, but as long as you keep spending….they are happy. There is a great attrition rate with LIEF so they have to have their literal “lifers” to keep it running, that is YOU and the “other people on your team”. Keep an eye out and see how many other people actually join and stay (should you choose to stay until July).

    Your next statement is that you’d rather have a good name than great riches. Bravo for you. You are a person of character and I beg of you to hold onto that. You understand that anyone you bring in is destined to lose money, right? Over 99% lose money in this and other MLM schemes. So, in order for you to “succeed” (and I am in complete disagreement with how this word is used in this context) you have to hurt other people financially. How do you get past that intellectually? That was one thing I could never accept when I was involved in Monavie and I realized my gut feeling on that was correct. I did end up taking money from my friends and family, which they never recovered, and to this day I feel sick about it.

    Bottom line THIS IS NOT A BUSINESS. Use all of your talents, skill and integrity to become involved in a REAL business. Then, volunteer all of your extra time to help in the community where people really need your help, not at conventions where you are just padding the wallets of a “A Few Bad Men”. And, this is not a character assassination Chris, I have a great deal of disdain for someone that knows what they are involved in (scam) and perpetuate it because it makes them money. I have a great deal of empathy for people like you who are lured in, make no money but believe that they are there for all of the right reasons, only to get hurt emotionally, spiritually and financially.

    Good luck on your journey Chris. Just keep being you (researching, asking the questions) and listening to YOUR voice in your head and heart, they won’t steer you wrong.

  59. Freedomhaha permalink
    February 7, 2012 10:52 am

    Awesome finds on Orrin’s properties in Michigan. You guys are the absolute best. I can see this find turning into a whole new post!

    God bless!

  60. February 7, 2012 12:16 pm

    Here’s a story on the home foreclosure of TEAM Round Table Members’ Kirk and Cassie Birtles. Their home (previously owned by Chris and Terri Brady) was foreclosed in 2010.

  61. Gordon Freeman permalink
    May 4, 2012 4:55 pm

    With apologies to Stephen Colbert: a man with truthiness is never at the mercy of a man with those horrible old “facts” and their well-known liberal bias!

  62. MustHaveBeenTerribleMother permalink
    August 16, 2012 6:06 am

    On Feb 4, 2012, Rocket said: “There’s nothing original nor special about Orrin Woodward that I would consider positive. I don’t even think he’s the greatest Huckster of our time, rather I put him in the same category as people barking from their booths at carnivals encouraging you to knock over milk bottles with a ball for a piece of crap $2 prize.”

    After watching Woodward and Brady in videos, I sincerely don’t understand how the persona of Woodward, while not offensive, can command guruship to such an extent. My first impression was: Brady is smarter had the polished command, while Woodward sort of the comic relief/I’m a regular guy/buddy in a shuckster routine (in an effort to be personable to potential victims, I’m sure) as in Toody and Muldoon or Abbot and Costello, or many a Saturday Night Live skits

  63. webelieved permalink
    August 16, 2012 8:17 am

    You are right Brady is smarter. The control of information, the Wu they use it, along with a fake positive/controlled environment is very powerful. Everything is done intentionally.

  64. freedomhaha permalink
    August 16, 2012 10:38 am

    I also think that Brady is smarter, and has a better sounding voice. Something about Orrin’s voice just screams “scam artist”, and I could not even listen to him when I was in the business because of that reason. It is such a shame that a talented individual by all accounts in Brady uses his powers in such an evil way.

  65. Speak Your Truth permalink
    August 16, 2012 11:53 am

    Yep I agree, he is one witty slick talker, too bad he didn’t use his “talent” in something other than a con’s game. Would be much more noble than using his wit in finding ways to “justify” and “frame-up” damaging others in all area’s of their lives in the 99%+, losing game of MLM. (secrecy. bullying, mobbing,lying, deceiving, cheating,self-serving and praising/worshipping of orrin woodward). Such a waste of “talent.”

  66. freedomhaha permalink
    August 16, 2012 12:05 pm

    Speak- Amen.

  67. Speak Your Truth permalink
    August 16, 2012 12:53 pm

    Freedomhaha~

    And imo, Brady isn’t THAT “smart” to continue to “follow” and ‘worship’..orrin, like he does, From our experience one might consider that very stupid or foolish because we all know where that will eventually lead. I bet people believe Bernie Madoff was a genius; considering how long he was able to keep the feds off his back… Sound familiar? 🙂

  68. freedomhaha permalink
    August 16, 2012 3:50 pm

    Speak- I hope that Orrin and his crew end up the same place that Madoff does without a doubt. I was referring to Brady’s talents as a speaker and writer. Not that I loved his writing, but he could have been a solid author about subjects other than scamming people if he had tried too.

  69. No Team For Me permalink
    August 16, 2012 4:52 pm

    Those who have been close to Orrin realize he’s not as smart as everyone is told to edify him to be. But most of the leaders are so dependent on the money by the time they get close enough to him to realize it, they end up going along with the scam.

    I agree. From day one, Orrin never seemed as good a leader as Chris Brady. I never really liked any of Orrin’s talks. I think most people feel the same way inside, but they don’t want the rest of the cult to look at them strange so they act like they are feeding on every word. I used to be one of those people. The pressure of everyone around you looking so sincere…made you take out your notebook and write every word of Orrin’s down. Not because it was good. But because you wanted everyone around you to think you were hungry for knowledge & information.

    what a crock! I loved listening to Chris Brady. But Orrin, that’s the time I wanted to go to the bathroom or get something to eat.

  70. August 17, 2012 7:47 am

    Must suck to be woody!

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  1. Do What I Say, Not As I Do: TEAM Round Table Member’s Home Foreclosure « AMTHRAX

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