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LIFE Policies and Procedures, Signup and Compensation Plan Documents

October 26, 2011
Update June 3, 2013: LIFE has updated its Compensation Plan and included an Income Disclosure Statement for 2012-2013. Read our analysis of the IDS here. The links below reference the original compensation plan from 2011.

When entering into a business contract, it’s critical to understand what you’re getting yourself into before signing on the dotted line. With LIFE TEAM, it’s especially important, as there are several clauses in the Policies and Procedures document which are very eyebrow-raising. There may be pressure to sign up right away, but do yourself a favor and take these LIFE TEAM documents to an unbiased attorney to read.

Without further ado, I give you the following documents:

As others have been pointing out in the comments here, the Policies and Procedures document is worth reading very closely. I want to highlight the following two sections: Responding to Negative Posts
Do not converse with one who places a negative post against you, other independent Members, or LIFE. Report negative posts to the Company at corpsupport@the-life- Responding to such negative posts often simply fuels a discussion with someone carrying a grudge that does not hold themselves to the same high standards as LIFE, and therefore damages the reputation and goodwill of LIFE.

I guess we won’t be seeing many LIFE Members on this site anymore. Failure to follow the rules set forth by LIFE may result in a complete termination of your membership (and redistribution of your downline). Doesn’t that sound familiar? It’s simply codifying what ex-TEAM members have been saying for months and years now.

9.2- Disciplinary Sanctions
The Company may, in its discretion, take one or more of the following actions if a Member violates the Agreement or any common law duty, including but not limited to any applicable duty of loyalty; engages in any illegal, fraudulent, deceptive or unethical business conduct relating to the Member’s LIFE business; or commits any act or omission that, in the sole discretion of the Company, may damage the Company’s reputation or goodwill (such damaging act or omission need not be related to the Member’s LIFE business):

• Issue a written warning or admonition;
• Require the Member to take immediate corrective measures;
• Impose a fine, which may be withheld from bonus and commission checks;
• Withhold one or more bonus and commission checks;
• Suspend the Member’s Agreement for one or more pay periods;
• Permanently or temporarily revoke or reduce the current and/or lifetime rank of a Member (which may subsequently be achieved again by the Member);
• Transfer or removal of some or all of a Member’s downline Members from his or her Downline Organization.
• Terminate the Member’s Agreement;
• Suspend and/or terminate the Member’s LIFE website or website access;
• Take any other measure allowed under the Agreement or by law.

LIFE may withhold from a Member all or part of the Member’s bonuses and commissions during the period that LIFE is investigating any conduct described above in this Section 9.2. If a Member’s Agreement is terminated, bonuses and commissions withheld during the investigation period will be deemed not to have been earned and owed, and the Member will not be entitled to recover them.

Get on the wrong side of these policies and procedures (or piss off Orrin Woodward), and oh boy, are you in for a world of hurt!

Prospective LIFE members will be wise to read these documents very carefully, as there are several sections that should give one pause. The LIFE you sign up for might not be the life you want ultimately!

203 Comments leave one →
  1. October 26, 2011 7:33 pm

    But don’t forget, it’s YOUR business, right?


    Oh, never mind. It’s actually Orrin’s. You are but a pawn in his little orchestra of life……

    Enjoy giving him your money for little to no reward.


  2. brent hansen permalink
    October 26, 2011 7:40 pm

    Rocket, pawn is appropriate. You could say employee, except employees don’t pay to participate in their jobs, and in most cases don’t spend more on their job than they earn. What a joke!

  3. brent hansen permalink
    October 26, 2011 7:52 pm

    Amthrax, so would a violation of 3.3.11. 9 warrant discipline under 9.2, or would it be considered a grievance under 8.3 or would I need mediation under 9.3. Could it possibly disqualify me to receive anything from 6.1, or would it simply mean that I need more direction under 4.2.1? And if I did respond as stated in but then received direction under 4.2.1, could I correctly assume that I would not need to file under 8.3.1? Or should I go ahead and contact someone under 8.2.1 and tell them that I need to be consulted under 4.2.1 so that a 8.3.1 was no longer needed? I guess if all of us were guilty of violating there is no way we could work together due to 8.4.6. And if we chose to violate 8.4.6 we probably wouldn’t be compensated as stated in 6.1.

    Wow! This is good, all the bases are covered. LETS GET INVOLVED NOW!

  4. brent hansen permalink
    October 26, 2011 7:53 pm


  5. Used to be "all-in" permalink
    October 26, 2011 8:08 pm

    Just reading through the policies and procedures right now. There are so many ridiculous things included it’s hard to even know where to begin!

    Let’s start with the ones that they spewed hatred toward Quixtar over and now have turned around and implemented it in their own company:

    – 6 month non-solicitation rules if you leave LIFE (Section 3.10.1)
    – Arbitration is your only recourse. Class action arbitration is not allowed. AND the only allowable court is the one in Genesse county, whether it is convenient for you or not. Wasn’t it the TEAM that filed lawsuits in California, Texas and many other places around the country against Quixtar? (Section 9)

    Other points of interest. I was told point blank by my PC that LIFE would be the b-type business (since the TEAM profit sharing no longer is after they changed the deal). However, please read section 4.2 and tell me how that describes a b-type business. You can’t EVER stop doing it and they put it right in their P&P!! In addition, the business is theoretically willable with a HUGE disclaimer (3.28). Whoever takes over the business MUST also be in compliance with the P&P…if not, then I guess it’s up to the PC to take the business from them at that point. And since when does an independent contractor (section 3.16) own a b-type business? Again, more lies that they are building into the plan when they show that wonderful cash flow quadrant.

    In addition:

    Section 3.22 – Your business could also be taken away if anybody in your house or family does anything that violates the agreement (speaks “negatively” about LIFE, etc.). So please contain that negative in-law – their comments could cause you to lose your business or have other negative consequences thrown against you…all at the sole discression of LIFE, of course.

    Section 3.6.2 – You can’t disclose your income, show your checks, bank statements or tax records to prospects or others on your team. So much for full disclosure! (or at least the shallow appearance of it). Didn’t they also speak openly against this when they were with Quixtar? I.e. Quixtar wouldn’t let them disclose their sources of income? Interesting that they have now built into their business the fact that you have to take the PC and the “dream” at the word…whatever happened to the says, Trust God, all others must have data? Well, at least they now have it in writing that facts are not allowed.

    Section 3.24 – If you want to sell your business, the highest ranked upline has the first dibs. I love these pyramid rules baked right into the policies. So let’s say that one of your big leaders decides that they want out and want to sell their business, don’t bother trying to purchase it. Your PC will probably gladly take this business that you invested thousands of hours and dollars in and continue to get paid on it, albeit without you in between if they so choose.

    I could go on and on, but I’d be here all night. I better stop before I start to boil at the hypocrocy and lies.

  6. No Team For Me permalink
    October 26, 2011 9:46 pm

    Someone needs to print copies of these and hand them out in the parking lots at the TEAM/Life Open Meetings. Imagine if the prospects got to see some of this the night the saw the plan.

    Some people need to also figure out a way to get this passed around on facebook so the masses can see it.

  7. das permalink
    October 27, 2011 1:01 am

    lmao, thanks Brent. I needed a laugh this morning.

  8. humiliated permalink
    October 27, 2011 5:56 am

    That is unbelievable Used to be all in! Last time I checked, when you owned your own business, you could show your bank statements to ANYONE, sell it to ANYONE, will it to ANYONE! WTF????

    This is like being in some sort of prison with a very strict warden! They frisk everyone associated with you and punish YOU if they find contraband on them!

    I am just sickened by the amount of control these a$$holes are trying to exert over new members and those “old” ones stupid enough to sign the contract. They have a gag order built right into the contract. They have the nepotistic “keep the wealthy wealthier” written into the contract with the “will” clause. This is really starting to feel like more than a cult, it really remarkably close to how the MAFIA operates. Once you are in, you never get out, even when you are “out”.

    If anyone that is on the fence about joining LIFE and reading this, I beg of you, take the contract to a lawyer before you sign it (better yet, don’t sign it at all). Don’t listen to the TEAM LIFE or LIFE TEAM members if they tell you that this is just boilerplate “legalese” built into most business contracts, it is NOT and they WILL legally enforce (or at least threaten to enforce) the rules should you “turn on them” . You are selling your soul and your family’s soul to these people which, in my view, you have absolutely no moral, ethical or legal right to do, as they are a third party and haven’t signed a contract so Orrin would not have a leg to stand on legally, but damn it he will threaten you all (and the family dog and goldfish) into silence.

    So TROY and KEVIN THOMPSON I would love for you to come on here and comment on how or why ANYONE should sign this and how this sort of strong arming is good for your “industry”. God, you all (Orrin & Co., Troy, Kevin) make me sick. I really do wonder you sleep at night.

    Brent, I don’t have the Monavie contract anymore, but I seem to recall that the it was quite similar?

  9. Justin permalink
    October 27, 2011 6:48 am

    I apologize if I missed this…But is this in the contract they have to sign? Or can they only see this if they commit the ultimate sin of doing research on their business? I just saw that someone said imagine if it was passed out. Just curious! thanks for all the info!

  10. Speak Your Truth permalink
    October 27, 2011 7:34 am

    Humiliated & Used to be ‘all in’~

    I agree 100%..great comments! I love your post. They scream Free Enterprise, Freedom, The American Dream blah be de blah… til they have lost their voices and mean NONE of it…but this is nothing shy of communism! The control these tyrants have built in this (Hitler regimen P&P) is evident! Your children or relatives cannot have an opposing or negative opinion? Are you flippin kidding? Why didn’t they add your BOSS into that freaking control orders…Can you imagine what their children live with…such a legacy they are NOT leaving for their children! What a disgrace!

    I say anyone that has signed this…get out now!

  11. Speak Your Truth permalink
    October 27, 2011 8:39 am


    These are the contracts and P&P they Make you agree to and sign before you can become a ‘member.’ Please read it here in full…and show anyone else you think is going to be trapped in this. Trust us, the P&P and contract is enough to show you who they really are..they are NOT what they appear.

  12. No Team For Me permalink
    October 27, 2011 9:01 am

    Justin – the imagine if it was passed comment is because most people will never take the time to read it. On the Life registration they ask you to scroll through and read it before registering. But let’s be honest, if someone is all hyped up to register, are they really going to take the time to read 39 pages of fine print?

    I recommended printing it out and handing it out to prospects who are heading in to these Open Meetings so they can read the fine print of what they are about to register in and will probably not read unless someone gives them a hard copy with highlights in some areas they might want to investigate further before signing.

  13. freeatlast permalink
    October 27, 2011 9:06 am

    43 PAGES!! Are you kidding me. I doubt very much that any lifer is going to read all that. They will probably follow their uplines advice “just sign it.” Most will just skim over it. That is what team is counting on.

    I wonder if they asked for their first born and make them sign it in blood.

  14. Speak Your Truth permalink
    October 27, 2011 9:32 am

    I agree NTFM…There isn’t anyone who will be sitting at a computer for that long to read even a page of it…they can’t think at that point they are too ‘dreamed up’…after being shown that they can;

    After they were told they would be stupid…Who doesn’t Want to; “Get all their goals & dreams, can bring their spouse home from work so their children don’t have to go to day care, or they can retire in a couple years and fire their boss, and they can become financially free and independant and will never have to rely on any boss… because there is no security in that… they can make 10 grand a month or become a millionaire if they just do what the PC did, the one’s with the ‘proven’ results… after they have told them all about their uplines mansions, yachts, dodge challenger, jeeps, trips around the world, indoor scoccer fields, pools, diamonds, rolexs, trips around the world…etc.etc..AND they care so much about FREEDOM for You and the families around the world that they have a Charity too, AND they lead people to the ‘Truth’ that is why they have Sunday Services with the ‘top 10’ Pastors of the WORLD..AND it is pay later..You Will Own Your Own Business for only $50 dollars per month AND you can even get that FREE if you get 3 Customers who will pay $50 per month for the REST OF THEIR LIVES.. ALL this because we are ‘missionaries’ who CARE about this world…WE are going to BE the Education for the World…ALL this You Too can get and Will be paid buckets of money and have the lifestyle’s we just told you about..Just for joining the trip of your Lie.f program! Amazing isn’t it! hahahaha!!

    Now, just click you agree, it is just a ‘legal technicallity’ no worries from the ‘bottom of my heart’ these guys have Character, Integrity and are the bravest Men & Women I have EVER met, they have Never done anything except help me!…I am soooo excited…This is going to revolutionize YOUR Lie..f.. Can’t wait for you to get YOU started on the journey to your Freedom!!!” Just click you agree…..

    There isn’t A person who will read this! We KNOW the game all too well! They are the great deceivers!!!

  15. Outcast permalink
    October 27, 2011 11:33 am

    Section 3.29. No more cold contacts or collecting business cards of people you meet in order to call them at a business launch? Wow!!! I can’t even count how many times I’ve heard how someone built their business using those techniques on CD’s. Why was it okay for you to do those things in mona vie, but not in LIEf?

    I can’t believe anyone would agree to anything that says they can and will take your business away if you break the rules, which will be decided upon by the PC. It’s not even like there is a set don’t do this, its all whatever Orrin decides he doesn’t want. Scary!

  16. Outcast permalink
    October 27, 2011 11:38 am

    They trademarked LIFE. hahahaha! I can’t wait to see this come crashing down. I’m going to change my blog name, facebook name, email everything to LIfE, since it isn’t all caps it doesn’t count lol

  17. not signed up yet permalink
    October 27, 2011 1:37 pm

    How about that comp plan? I didn’t it and I am a smart guy. How is anyone supposed to explain that to anyone. Here’s how I would explain it.

    See this picture of Orrins really big house? Cool huh> Like it? well good because you are paying for it.

    And those rules…wow. I was told several times TEAM would never tell you what to do…looks like the new policies tell you every thing to do.

    Don respond to negative? What? How are you supposed to tell someone how great your TEAM is if you can’t respond to criticism? LIFE seams very appropriate for a name for the new TEAM because once you sign up they will own YOUR life.

    This LIFE stuff is worse than TEAM stuff and I thought TEAM was bad.

  18. October 27, 2011 1:43 pm

    Good freaking grief. This is tyranny. I think the FTC people actually tell you to ask for proof of income, and here LIFE is telling you to NOT show proof. Big red flag there. You know, I would definitely not want to sign this kind of contract. I think the uplines even rush the registration through before a prospect has a chance to read through the contracts thoroughly. I do know when I joined I was pressed to join as soon as possible, so imagine how much more pressure it would be to make people join. I wonder if they still do the “diningroom table” thing where decisions are made right on the spot and papers are signed quickly.

  19. Outcast permalink
    October 27, 2011 2:25 pm

    weBelieved – 3.2.2- Trademarks and Copyrights
    The name of LIFE and other names as may be adopted by LIFE are proprietary trade
    names, trademarks and service marks of LIFE. As such, these trade names, trademarks and
    service marks are of great value to LIFE and are supplied to Members for their use only in the
    manner expressly authorized in the Agreement. LIFE will not allow the use of its trade names,
    trademarks, designs, or symbols, or any derivatives of such marks, by any person, including
    LIFE Members, in any unauthorized manner without its prior, written permission.

    How CAN they claim that? Well they can say anything they want to their followers and they will obey without question.

  20. October 27, 2011 2:28 pm

    Too bad LIFE Cereal didn’t take total claim on that name hahaahhahaha

  21. Speak Your Truth permalink
    October 27, 2011 4:39 pm


    “How CAN they claim that? Well they can say anything they want to their followers and they will obey without question.”……Thanks for the laughs…. even though it is the truth and not that funny!


    ..He likes it!!!…Hey Mikey!….lol ..

  22. not signed up yet permalink
    October 27, 2011 7:47 pm

    If you think asking a TRAMbot/LIFER for income statements is impossible try asking for incomes statements and financials and profit and loss statements on TEAM and MV’s business and see what happens.

    Also ask why double Power Players still have their full time jobs.

    I asked all those questions and those are questions you aren’t supposed to ask.

  23. Dorothy permalink
    October 28, 2011 12:25 am

    This commenter requested that her comments be removed from this site.

  24. Former Round Table permalink
    October 28, 2011 7:23 am

    I think it would be pretty hard to trademark the word “LIFE.”

    Remember, back in the Quixtar days, Orrin was able to shut up his biggest online critic, Scott Larsen of, by using copyright law. Because Scott published verbatim quotes from various Team of Destiny (that’s what it was called back then) tapes and books without permission, Orrin was able to legally make the guy stop all criticism and remove all negative info.

    So I imagine this “trademark” crap is just a protective roadblock and laying the foundation for future lawsuits.

    This guy is wacked, and God help anyone who gets in business with him.

  25. Outcast permalink
    October 28, 2011 9:59 am

    Used to be “all in” – You said you were told by your PC that there was no more TEAM profit sharing? Then where is all the money from ticket sales and system going? Your training system is still separate and I’m being told that TEAM is still different from LIFE and buying and getting your down-line to get on system is what makes you a part of TEAM.

  26. Used to be "all-in" permalink
    October 28, 2011 11:02 am

    Outcast, I think you’re referring to my comments:

    I was told point blank by my PC that LIFE would be the b-type business (since the TEAM profit sharing no longer is after they changed the deal).

    What I meant was that after the PC unilaterially changed the deal on the RT’s at the go-diamond weekend (when they weren’t given copies of the contracts), the profit sharing went from being theoretically a b-type business to where you could get voted out by the PC. My PC told me that the LIFE business would be the new b-type business deal (and the TEAM profit sharing would still be available too for the current performers).

  27. 1MillionLIfES permalink
    October 28, 2011 7:01 pm

    It is rather surprising to me that some of the PC would allow policies such as the below. Okay, maybe not that surprising, but it will definitely be interesting to see how they get around them. In particular, policy:

    3.22- Actions of Household Members or Affiliated Parties
    If any member of a Member’s immediate family or any individual residing with a Member
    engages in any activity which, if performed by the Member, would violate any provision of the Agreement, such activity will be deemed a violation by the Member and LIFE may take
    disciplinary action against the Member pursuant to the Policies and Procedures.

    I’m just wondering what their definition is for “immediate family”. Does this include parents, siblings, adult children only or can this also be extended to grandparents and grandchildren? I’m sure it will depend on how badly they want to steal your business. Based on Arizona and Wisconsin Public FREE On-line Court records, at least one PC member may need to get better “control” of their immediate family if they hope to continue being a member of LIFE.

    Speaking of which… It makes absolutely no sense to me how they can even say LIFE is a b-type business for those who join. Per the P&P, you are buying a “membership” to LIFE with a yearly renewal fee. Since when does being a “member” of anything give you a b-type business? To me this sounds like a Costco or Sam’s Club – you pay a yearly fee to buy stuff. And puh-leaze – they are calling it a “right” to “Participate in LIFE-sponsored support, service, training, motivational and recognition functions, upon payment of appropriate charges, if applicable”. My final question of the night… does that mean they won’t allow anyone to attend a LIFE-sponsored function (i.e. Leadership Conventions) without having signed up for LIFE first?

  28. October 30, 2011 6:44 am


    Someone needs to report the P&P to the FTC.

  29. das permalink
    October 30, 2011 7:22 am

    You know what, I never signed anything like this when I got my job. I love my job and what I do. I pretty much work the hours I want, some times as much as 40 even, lol. They give me a month paid vacation every year, and pay me for doing something that I would do as a hobby.

    And guess what, my boss does not dick-tate what my family members or I do with our free time.

    For me, freedom equals being out from under the tyranny of Team Leadership and their discretion. These documents are cult practices and principles…PERIOD.

  30. Peachy permalink
    October 30, 2011 11:05 am

    Just got a courteousy call (yeah right) from one of my old downline teamates that I haven’t had a word of conversation with in over two years. I bet you all can guess what the gist of the conversation was. His opening was that the Team is moving in a different direction with the new leadership business called Life. He stated that MV will be very limited in the new program and in his words to me is because none of us signed up as juice salesman three and a half years ago. He went on about how much money can be made in the new scam (I mean business ) and tried very poorly to book an appointment with me to see about how great this new scam (there I go again) is supposed to be when it launches on Nov. 1st.

  31. October 30, 2011 11:09 am

    Peachy – I hope you reminded him that he had to pay for his membership ALL OVER AGAIN to promote this awesome new business, and that you showed him the P&P! :-p

  32. Speak Your Truth permalink
    October 30, 2011 11:38 am

    A courtesy call…now your downline wants to register you?…Lmao!!!!

    “A new direction” for thee ump-teenth time…of course MV will be limited? And no one signed up to be a ‘juice saleman 3 years ….Really? Then what did they sign up for… an ‘illegal pyramid? I thought MV was a juice sales company! Hahahahaha!!

  33. brent hansen permalink
    October 30, 2011 1:24 pm

    Peachy, go ahead and direct him over to the comp plan analysis here so they can know how much money they are NOT going to make.

  34. Peachy permalink
    October 30, 2011 2:28 pm

    I almost want to sit down with him and ask how much money he has made in the six years he’s been envolved with TOD, Team, Team MonaVie, now Team Life. I want to ask how many rebranded tools he has. I know for a fact that he never made any money when he was part of my downline. I also want to ask him what he thinks about all the big leaders that have left, and what he thinks or knows what happened to the Dickies.

  35. Abbott permalink
    October 30, 2011 7:13 pm

    Tee hee. The higher ranks of LIFE will be called “Life Coaches.” Convincing people to believe the fanatical ramblings of a few rich men does not make you a life coach… sorry!

  36. TruthWillSetYouFree permalink
    October 31, 2011 11:40 am

    I can say with certainty that the P&P you see here is very similar, if not almost identical to the one that MonaVie has. A side-by-side comparison would probably confirm that, but I haven’t taken the time to do so. As familiar I am with the P&Ps from the MV end, some of the sections you are referencing sound the same.

  37. not signed up yet permalink
    October 31, 2011 2:01 pm

    Amazing. MV used to be the greatest health drink ever, now all of the sudden its not. I guess what ever Life TEAM says, it goes no matter what the facts are, and we knwo facts dont matter.

  38. Speak Your Truth permalink
    October 31, 2011 7:41 pm


    That ought to be

    not signed up yet~

    You got it…what ever ‘serves’ their purpose ($$) at the moment….and it is blatantly obvious… it must be that ‘bench marking study’.. failed..hmm….but it was the ‘best business bar none’..oh that’s right… wrong ‘illegal pyramid’ with the wrong ‘hopelessly overpriced products’..

  39. Lykwowlol permalink
    November 2, 2011 8:51 pm

    And Who is going to Report them?

    Just wow:

  40. humiliated permalink
    November 6, 2011 7:17 am

    Ugh. Just viewed that video. Troy really is a POS. His manipulation has no limits. He feels he is justified in saying that he went through what the exTEAMERS have gone through because he has had two bankruptcies (crikey, no wonder he is so desperate to make a go of his career supporting pyramid schemes). He says he could blame “the Hurricane” or “the Economy” or “BP”…but he chooses not to as you all should choose not to blame Orrin for the financial devastation you suffered at the hands of ONE man and his posse. First of all, how is an “act of God” (in the first example) remotely the same? Are you actually implying that Orrin had no conscious awareness or control over how he stole from people MANY , MANY TIMES over?

    With your second & third stupid examples, again, unless you have done business directly with the President of the US or BP, and they personally stole from you this is not a valid comparison.

    Alternatively, and I think this is what you are saying, you sly devil, you could take this as “Orrin ingratiated himself into your lives, earned your trust, but you were all were stupid to trust him with your money and your “business” and for that you must take responsibility and not hold him, but YOURSELVES accountable. WTF? You understand that this is the same tactic that a child molester uses, right? They get the child & the family to trust them implicitly, then they molest the child and hold guilt and threats over the child’s head so he/she doesn’t tell anyone. Troy is asking us to accept that it is the family’s fault, and not the child molester himself. (and I am not implying that Troy is a child molester, this is merely an example of the screwed up psychology he is trying to use on people here).

    Taking the above analogy even farther, he is blaming you all for the anger that you feel towards the child molester and telling you that you need to put that anger away. I agree that it is not healthy to continue being angry at yourselves, but that is not what you are doing by expressing yourselves here. You are doing the opposite, understanding that you were manipulated and used you have stopped being angry at yourselves. This has been done by reading the words of others who have experienced what you have and by educating yourselves on the ways of cults through all of the resources that have been provided to you. What you are feeling now is a passion and a purpose. THis is how you get rid of a child molester in the neighborhood. You rally the troops and speak out over and over and over again so that he doesn’t come back to your, or anyone else’s neighborhood. TEAM and MLM are molesting people finacially, spiritually and emotionally and you all are the NEIGHBORHOOD WATCH. A public service!

    Really Troy, report TEAM to the DSA? What a joke. The only “regulatory” bodies that we will (and have) be reporting this to is the FTC.

    You bring up “camps” and having “open dialogue and discussions” about this. The only “camps” here are the ones that support “right” and “wrong”. What you are doing and supporting is wrong ethically and morally and you know it unless you are a complete sociopath. There is no discussion to be had except for everyone on here to concede that MLM and tool companies are a viable industry instead of a crime.

    I don’t hate you Troy. I just find you completely pathetic. However, I am pissed that anyone on this site trusted you at all and I wish that you had never, ever come on here to “help” . Actually, I take that back, you have fueled the fire and inspired all of us to continue our “mission” by any means available to us, by blogging, by going to the FTC and the FDA etc.. So, I guess your little scheme backfired…..

  41. billy permalink
    November 6, 2011 11:53 am

    If you’ve been paying any attention, Troy’s appearance to this site was intended to gather info so he could write up a blog and post it on his nmadvocates site. Whether he portrays himself to be on Orrin’s side or try to remain neutral is immaterial. Who cares, guys? This LIFE biz is moving on whether you try to stop it or not. I’ve received dozens of calls/texts over the past couple months letting me know new people were signing up for it and I should hold my spot. To my knowledge, they have been working with FTC attorneys to make sure they aren’t violating any rules/regulations. You probably don’t have a foot to stand on.

    At least they’re identifying the biz as a CDs/Books/seminars revenue stream instead of hiding behind the cover of a juice or soap, right? Progress. It looks like books and CDs is big business, like church, fast food and tobacco/alcohol. Might as well roll with the punches, right? If I sign up, how many of you want to be my customers? I only need three.

  42. brent hansen permalink
    November 6, 2011 1:24 pm

    Billy, unfortunately a non-violation of FTC rules, and following the advice of attorneys, in no way shape or form makes a bad business model become a good one. Look at the unscrupulous lenders who packaged high-risk derivatives and sold them on the open market. Were they all operating within the law? Absolutely! You see, it was the corrupt politicians, and the fat cat lobby, that were involved in creating policy that forced lenders to loosen their credit policies, and extend loans where they shouldn’t have been extended. Vote pandering is quickly becoming the downfall of our entire society.

    So you can stick your head in the sand and believe that there isn’t a massive lobby going on by the DSA which keeps product based pyramid schemes legal, and functioning, or you can choose to become part of the solution. To me the choices are blaringly obvious, they are 1. only think, learn, and do what is regurgitated from my upline, or 2. be brave enough to find out the truth, and then deal with the truth in a positive manner.

    So shout your message from some other rooftop, because the people on this blog know the TRUTH! And when you do, you are going to regret being so damn arrogant. My one prayer is that you do get 3 customers, and teach your other team members how to find 3 real and legitimate customers as well. You see, I would be willing to bet that 99.9% of all end users withing your system will be those who are hoping to earn from the compensation plan. If that is the case, your so called ‘model’ is nothing more than a poorly disguised scam.

  43. billy permalink
    November 6, 2011 6:44 pm

    I find it disgusting that you’re comparing a business practice to child molestation. Very few things are as damaging as that, and if you think your stay with TEAM is that bad, perhaps you should see a shrink. Child molesting is gross, illegal and unethical. If you really think the TEAM is too, then FUCKING DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT! If I were Orrin, I’d be out doing rich people stuff, like not complaining about all the bad stuff that happened to me in the past.

    Customers are the way to go with this business model. I’m personally not interested in establishing an army of business owners, rather a loyal customer base who find value in the products. A business partner in each small town or several in large cities would suffice. Think restaurant franchises. I haven’t agreed to the P&P and have had a discussion with my friend’s uline round table about my concerns. Hopefully that conversation made it to Orrin.

    Done correctly, this business model can produce some serious results. It needs to be customer-based and I hope this madness gets ironed out. I wonder if that guy who got burned by McDonald’s coffee started a blog… Out of curiosity, what WOULD you people recommend for someone who is business-minded and looking for an opportunity?

  44. brent hansen permalink
    November 6, 2011 7:16 pm

    billy, I would like to talk to you on the phone if its agreeable. Feel free to email me

  45. Vogel permalink
    November 6, 2011 7:33 pm

    Billy: “I wonder if that guy who got burned by McDonald’s coffee started a blog… Out of curiosity, what WOULD you people recommend for someone who is business-minded and looking for an opportunity?”

    Hmmm. For a guy who asks spectacularly inane questions like these, I’d suggest setting your sights realistically at a minimum wage job that doesn’t require critical thinking. Either that or you could go to school and learn some skills that are in demand in the real world. Or you can take the low road and continue trying to scam people with TEAM/LIEf/Monavie.

  46. Speak Your Truth permalink
    November 6, 2011 7:51 pm

    A Bernie in the making.

  47. 1MillionLIfES permalink
    November 6, 2011 10:09 pm

    Billy, since LIFE is a new business, it obviously does not have an income disclosure statement. Since it doesn’t and TEAM is still associated with Monavie, let’s actually analyze the Monavie 2010 income disclosure statement. Go get a copy if you don’t have one (it’s available on the Monavie website), then continue reading this…

    Under the nice table that shows how much you could make, there is a nice long paragraph. Read the last sentence. This basically says 86% of the people who sign-up for Monavie aren’t even included in the income disclosure table. Based on that statement.. Let’s start doing some basic math.

    Just for the sake of argument, let’s say there are 10,000 people who are signed up for Monavie, trying to build a business (I know there are many more, but I am just picking a nice round number). According to the income disclosure statement itself, 86% of them aren’t included. Meaning 8,600 people aren’t even on the chart (no income).

    That leaves 1,400 out of 10,000 who are actually “on the chart”. So when you start looking at the percentages of distributors, it is based on the 1,400 and NOT the original 10,000. That leaves you with the following breakdown:

    980 – Distributors
    280 – Star
    70 – Star 500
    28 – Star 1000
    14 – Bronze
    14 – Silver
    14 – Gold and beyond

    So if you think the above odds are good 14 in 10,000 make it to Gold level or beyond, then this is a great business opportunity for you. I would also look at the AVERAGE annualized income at each of these levels – you will want to take into account that they do not consider any expenses, only payout to the distributor. Even if you make it to the bronze level, (after all 42 out of 10,000 make it this far) after calculating your expenses for product, business cards, training material, weekly/monthly/quarterly meetings, vehicle maintenance/gas, hotels, etc, you really aren’t making a whole heck of a lot.

    I would say if you haven’t signed up yet and are looking on here for answers, there is something that isn’t sitting well with you. I know it is hard to separate the good feelings long enough to really listen to what they are saying, read what they are advertising to you, and then analyzing it all. My number one advice to you is to READ the material yourself and really think about what it says rather than how they spin it.

    One quick insight for you. I come to this site not because I am angry, but because I am saddened. I have a very good friend who is still involved in the business. It breaks my heart because if this person were told by Orrin the sun was blue, they would believe the sun was blue – and they would wonder why the rest of the world can’t see that to be true. I keep hoping and praying for a way to help them, but I know they have to see it themselves. My hope of being involved here is that others, like yourself, are able to see both sides of the business opportunity and make an informed decision before it’s too late. In the end we don’t know you or your story and we can’t tell you what to do or not to do. That is your decision. We can only share our experiences and give others our interpretations of documents, business practices, etc based on that experience.

  48. Crazy Canuck permalink
    November 7, 2011 7:08 am

    Check this out – is this an income claim?! It’s at least a glimpse into where their hard earned….I mean, our hard earned money went.

  49. November 7, 2011 7:23 am

    Holy CRAP!! That’s the Hamilton’s home!!!! Oh sheesh! I remember me and a few other ladies plus my upline on a cold fall day going there touring the structure part of the house 2 years ago. It had just the wood structure up then. Lana Hamiliton gave us the tour, her husband wasn’t there, though, it was a ladies’s “dream-building” evening. My upline was so in awe of everything, espeically being in close contact with LANA HAMILITON of all people.

    What a load of crap. Dream-building indeed!

    BTW I’m in Halifax as well (close to Bedford) This is why this whole TEAM biz still freaks me out because a PC couple is right in my area. I’d better shut up before I get into another rant.

  50. November 7, 2011 7:36 am

    Crazy Canuk, yeap, they were using it as an income claim back in the MV/TEAM days – in fact, they were saying that they were living on next to nothing just to save up for their $2 million dollar dream home. They also got some huge trailer thingymajig I think they called it a “couch” something like that. My upline said she was able to peek in it, and she saw a bedroom with a queen-sized bed, marble floors, 3 flatscreen TV, kitchen, basically a mini rich home. Not sure if they still got that vehicle or not, though. Total waste of money, if you ask me.

  51. humiliated permalink
    November 7, 2011 7:39 am

    Actually Billy, Troy first showed up on this site because the question of whether Orrin was “Qrush” was getting a lot of attention, so he and his slimy sidekick, Kevin Thompson, decided to come on here and accuse people (including our gracious host) of hiding behind pseudynoms. We were getting a lot of other people coming on and giving AMTHRAX their evidence supporting the fact that Orrin is indeed Qrush. THAT is why Troy came on here, to try and EDUC”MUCK”ATE us on the ways of on-line blogging, we soooo appreciate it. He then went around in circles…he knew Orrin well both professionally and personally, as well as some of the RT…then …well…he capitulated and said he didn’t know him that well but would call him anyways and ask some hard hitting questions, thus getting to the bottom of this.

    Writing something negative about Orrin & his business practices would be cutting his own nose off to spite his face, I get that, we all do. However, I take umbrage with someone coming on here as a wolf in sheep’s clothing. He came on here saying that he understood the pain and devestation that had occurred and was trying to help. BULLSHIT. He has done nothing but cause further damage to these people, particularly the ones that thought he gave a shit. Furthermore, his article says nothing and addresses nothing, like the mathematical certainty that most people will fail at MLM that , as “1millionLifes” so eloquently stated.

    The bottom line is that blogs like this and Lazyman’s site are doing some serious damage to Troy & the MLM business and Troy’s focus in his article was to shut these down. Period. I find that incredibly arrogant and deceitful since Amthrax was nothing but a polite and respectful to Troy, even defending him at times. The irony is, Troy always comes back to having an open dialogue and “communicating”, but wants to silence people like Amthrax and Lazyman.

    Billy, you say ” Child molesting is gross, illegal and unethical. If you really think the TEAM is too, then FUCKING DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT! ” . What do you think we are doing? This site has provided a safe haven for those who want to share their stories of pain and betrayal, while also providing a resource for those who don’t feel they are getting the whole story from LIFE or TEAM members. We have people thanking us for our work and our honesty. They have come on here and said they almost drank the kool aid but what we said actually made more sense then what they were hearing, so they declined the invitation to join the cult, I mean TEAM.

    Good luck on your journey Billy. I mean that, I really feel for you and I hope you get out before that you suffer as much financial and emotional devastation as my friends on this site.

  52. Mike Collins permalink
    November 7, 2011 8:56 am

    @ Billy: If you want a recommendation For people who want a real business opportunity Tell them to buy a lawn mower and an edger. I can guarantee you with 95 percent certainty That they will make more money cutting grass Then they will in this piece of crap opportunity called LIEF. Do your homework and learn some math Think outside of the box And try not to let your thoughts be dominated by rhetoric. Read the life plan compensation analysis and then tell us what you think.

  53. Speak Your Truth permalink
    November 7, 2011 9:13 am


    Thanks for all you do and you really get it…and can communicate it so well; in all your posts.

    I pity people like Billy and it is hard to have patience with someone so arrogant, who has tunnel vision and cannot reason. It is so clear to all of us when someone like Billy comes on here and uses all the defenses known to the LieF/MLM game and rhetoric, but when he sees it isn’t working and people tell him the harse reality and truth then he gets angry because it creates an internal battle for him. You cannot hold 2 conflicting beliefs at the same time. He says he isn’t signed up yet, and that is even doubtful, and I have news for him there isn’t anyone on here who doesn’t believe he isn’t listening and attending a lot and so therefore Billy is self-deceived.

    No one is that attatched and defends something for nothing. What all these people, including Billy.. don’t understand is people who do criticially think, have common sense, can spot and see through this self deception, from a mile away! We have been there, and once had the tunnel vision, could handle every objection and were able to shut out every glaring truth and facts that came up against us that would be a threat to the beliefs they instill in people.

    In the cult, you hear the same ole rhetoric (planting seeds in your subconscious, until it becomes automatic and you know longer have to think, you just respond) literally thousands of times (thought reform) until you change your belief system… because that is what the cults and indoctrinating messages.. are designed to do… and are extremely effective at doing!!!

    The TOP people know this and take full advantage of it and the most disturbing is they tell you that is what they are doing in their own twisted way… as if they are your savior…only they use it as the media is brainwashing you and they are saving you from it, by you listening to their system and getting ‘5% thinking’ from those who are Wealthy…rather than listen to the 95%, including your parents, Pastor, media etc.. or whoever, even though you have know these people all your life and they love you and have never proven to harm you.

    Billy has come to believe, because they are telling people that the PC, (implying Billy will be) are making money on cd’s/ books/ and seminar income, this is NOT new news, Billy… and are making ‘progress’, and calls it Big business and compares it to churches? If ‘churches’ are Big Business then there lies a real problem…Billy should recognize this…and it is some how makes everything legit, in his distorted belief?… He completely ignores, and cannot see the glaring facts, like you and so many have point out a hundred times…. that He is destined to FAIL.. by design..and so many obvious discrepencies, staring him in the face…that are written all over this site… like the bankruptcies, defaults everyone of our stories.

    For God’s sake if he would just read the contract and Policies and Procedures that alone should make him snap out of it and open his eyes. But as we all know Billy will have to find out on his own… and learn the hard way… but he can no longer claim ignorance.. he has been told the truth.

  54. Speak Your Truth permalink
    November 7, 2011 9:18 am

    Mike~ lmao….That is the truth, and I would even add get a job a Wal-Mart or flippin burgers…Vogel had it right…

  55. November 8, 2011 8:42 am

    Humiliated, I never accused anyone of “hiding” behind pseudonyms. The link to my comment that you’re referencing is below. I support anonymous speech. I was speaking to my preference…I’ve been an anonymous speaker in the past and I’ve found that using my real name helps me temper my comments. I’m not judging you, Amthrax or anyone else. I certainly understand why the majority of you want to remain anonymous for fear of retaliation. I believe in the marketplace of ideas. The good ideas win, the bad ones lose. If you win by speaking anonymously, so be it.

    And I’ve noticed that you’re lumping me in with the shortcomings of the MLM industry. This is not fair and irresponsible. I take my job very seriously because I personally understand the affects of what happens when these models are abused. I’ve been the ONLY MLM attorney ever to propose serious anti-pyramid scheme legislation. It was not a watered down, vanilla piece of legislation to legitimize anything with a return policy. As every reader of this blog knows, people under the influence of a pay plan will buy and use things they otherwise would never buy and use. The industry needs to be supportive of measures that go beyond requiring a simple return policy, we need to require some external sales to demonstrate legitimate market value for these products (prove that they’re not token products). The bill I wrote was a real bill with some real safeguards. See below for a link to the article about the bill. Please read it and share your thoughts. The bill was killed within 48 hours by the DSA. I’ve since joined the DSA in an effort to converse with the right people about addressing the real problems. We’ll see what happens.

    Humiliated, I agree that there’s a plethora of bad companies in the industry. It does not make the industry 100% corrupt. Plus, the MLM industry is not going away. Complaining about the industry in general is fine; however, it would be better if you and people that share your views pushed for ways to make it safer. The focus should be on ways to require certain safeguards to protect people.

    Humiliated, I’m willing to engage in a serious conversation with you; however, I’m hopeful the insults will stop.

  56. November 8, 2011 8:52 am

    Kevin, I’m under the impression that retaliation would be frivolous lawsuits by the Woodward crew and also gag orders. As for me, I was never high up there, so I think it’s safe to use my real name. But don’t you think there’s serious pyschological impacts when a person is involved in a commercial cult? To be honest, I feel like we’re dealing with a huge monster with vast resources and we the little guys will be just shut up. I really think there’s a lot of fear.

    I know it looks like I’m rambling, but these are questions and thoughts that are going through my own head. I know myself I’m confused, even resigned. Sometimes I just come online to vent.

  57. brent hansen permalink
    November 8, 2011 9:38 am


    I appreciate your presence on this blog, and I hope that you will frequent it more often. I am new here myself, and although I have drifted across this blog in the past, I only now have decided to stop and comment based on Troy’s request for Michael to look at it.

    Troy has already told us of the legislation that you introduced, and exactly how all of that played out, its too bad the DSA has such a lobby going, because in my opinion they are just like the unions that support the Obama agenda. Do you feel that joining the DSA will be fruitful? What do you recommend that the people on this blog do in order to have a bigger impact?

    I think that there needs to be more legislation directed at making product based pyramid schemes turn to more of a direct sales model, placing the majority of commissions within the first 2 or 3 generations and not paying out to infinity as many plans do. In addition, forcing companies by law to provide printed evidence of compensation dollar allocation per distributor, and per rank. People really need to know and understand where the money in the companies plan is going. Total transparency from a corporate standpoint would become a feather in their hat if they were operating their models like true businesses.

    Now I know you did not come her to advertise your agenda, but what is the goal and mission of the mlm advocates site that Troy and you have put together? I messaged Troy telling him that I believe a more concise purpose or mission statement would be conducive to those who may be interested in contributing. When I read the advocate site, I came away with no clue as to what your purpose is.

    Is there a particular senator or representative that seems to be on board with addressing the issues in the industry? Who would you recommend that people here put the press on?
    What advice could you give in that aspect?

    We would all appreciate your input, and response. Thanks!

  58. November 8, 2011 9:58 am

    @Kevin – What are your thoughts on section 3.22 of the LIFE Policies and Procedures document? I discussed this in my post on Freedom Through Compliance and Conformity:

    3.22 – Actions of Household Members or Affiliated Parties
    If any member of a Member’s immediate family or any individual residing with a Member engages in any activity which, if performed by the Member, would violate any provision of the Agreement, such activity will be deemed a violation by the Member and LIFE may take disciplinary action against the Member pursuant to the Policies and Procedures.

    Isn’t this a little heavy-handed, considering all the talk about freedom, free-thinking, and independence from the founders of LIFE?

    As the former in-house counsel for TEAM, I understand your reluctance or inability to talk about the past. But LIFE is totally different from TEAM, isn’t it? So, would you be able to share your thoughts and comments on LIFE’s P&Ps?

  59. November 8, 2011 1:34 pm

    velizabethwhite, I cannot speak to the psychological impacts of commercial cults. I think there’s certainly room for smarter people than myself to write books on the subject. In my opinion, when someone has a piece of their dignity stolen, it’s an awful experience they’ll never forget. Take someone’s money, they can earn it back. With network marketing, it’s such a delicate situation because companies are asking people to leverage their credibility to market products and services. It’s a wonderful arrangement when done appropriately. When someone gets hooked into the wrong business, it’s a disaster. I’m really high in the industry and I’ve seen the good. I’ve also seen the bad. I’m an optimist and feel that a lot can be done to make it a safer environment for people. But it’ll take leadership and a little more oversight, which people tend to naturally resist. I hope this helps.

  60. November 8, 2011 1:47 pm


    Thanks for the kind words. First, who’s Michael?

    As for ways you can help, the DSA has power because they’re well organized. They can tap into the member companies databases and get people to send messages to local legislators. As you can imagine, those databases are large….bigger than your email list. I’m not sharing any secrets and I’m not disparaging the organization, it’s just the way the game is played. If you have something you feel strongly about, you’ll need to assemble some like mined people in your local community. The challenge with anti-pyramid legislation, people are afraid of embarrassing themselves by talking about their negative experience. In most cases, they just vanish and never want to think about it. It’s hard to get the support. Plus, most victims also perpetrated the fraud at one point, adding another layer of complexity. If you want to make a difference, perhaps consider analyzing the DSA’s model bill and propose some fixes. Perhaps create a simple wordpress site and dedicate it to the bill and invite the public to comment. Just a thought?

    As for your suggestion to focus on how the payouts are handled, I think the focus is misplaced. It’s too complex a solution and companies should have freedom in how they distribute their margin to their salesforce. Plus, legislators will never understand it. The key issue is in requiring each and every rep to make retail sales. If the product is not marketable, the reps will not get paid the program will not grow. The challenge is obviously in getting companies to enforce to the retail sales rules. There are ways and I think I put some ideas in the bill.

    I’m not advertising any agenda here, so thanks for noticing. I’m not involved with Troy’s Advocate site from a development standpoint. I’m a sponsor. Troy’s mission is to start a conversation on the site that will be beneficial for the industry at large. He’s good at starting those conversations, so I look forward to seeing what happens. With my limitations as an attorney, I’m not so good at starting those conversations. Troy is tenacious, so if the site’s mission is unclear, he’ll fix it eventually.

    As for specific legislators that would be on board for anti-pyramid legislation, I cannot think of a single one. It might be a good idea to start with your local one and see if you can communicate the problem.

    Brent, I hope this helps.

  61. November 8, 2011 2:17 pm


    I can certainly sense a lot of frustration. There are several of your questions that obviously deal with your personal dealings with TEAM, my former client. As such, I’m in no position to help you validate your position. I hope you understand. I’ll answer some of your questions below.

    1. Kevin in any way are you currently a hired lawyer for TEAM, LIFE or any other company of Orrin Woodward or working for anyone involved with him?

    KT: No.

    7. Is there a statute of limitations, in other words a time limit for a lawsuit in a civil or criminal court for false advertising, unfair business practices, contract issues, deceptive business practices etc.?

    KT: It’s 5 years in most cases for contract disputes. I’m not sure what the SOL is for fraud. I would imagine the clock would start ticking when the victim discovers the fraud.

    8. What other issues do you see as lawsuits that can be filed by distributors on this site? Where would you recomend we report these abuses to?

    Generally speaking, and I’m not giving you any information that’s not readily available out there, distributors’ options are limited. They can file individual actions to recover money that was personally lost. The cost of litigation usually eliminates that as a choice unless the distributor had a massive organization. The other alternative is class action; however, the distributors only get vindication, no restitution. People will contact me talking “class action” and when they find out that the class rep seldom gets paid, they leave. In some cases, the class rep walks away with $5,000 while the class of distributors get free vitamins.

    9. Do you believe in regulated, enforced full disclosure in income claims, recognition, ids, special deals recieved, etc to protect the uninformed prospects and distributors from being deceived?

    KT: Yes. Technically, companies are already required by the FTC to ensure the distributors provide income disclosures. Unfortunately, it’s rarely done. I think the law should be made clearer when it comes to income claims. Please review my draft bill…I think there was some verbiage in there dealing with disclosures. I think it’s very important for prospects to make informed decisions with good information.

    10. Is it legal to put someone in binding arbitration for life, even after they leave or get kicked out, like the new LIFE contract states? I thought Amway just lost a case on this front? Isn’t this what Orrin called unconscionable when he was in arbitration with Amway?

    KT: I vaguely remember Amway losing the arbitration argument because the distributors were “former” distributors. The agreement did not clearly apply to former distributors. I think if the agreement specifies that the arbitration clause survives termination, it’s enforceable.

    11. Why don’t you believe in a larger customer rule and enforcement to force the MLM industry to switch to actual outside direct sales? We both know that in most MLM’s distributors sign all their contacts up as distributors, because the products are priced too high that they cannot sell them, and they are taught to do that by their uplines. In my opinion, wouldn’t these be considered internal consumption pyramids? The companies love it because they can skirt the law and make more money off distributors buying their over priced products, as it seems the gornment allows most distributors to be considered customers? If MLM companies were forced to have real customers, they would have to have a product that is valued in the market place and competitively priced.( We know scammers will figure out a way around these rules. Our previous training company taught distributors or let top distributors teach us to click the customer button and buy from yourself for years and years, then later sued the company for being an illegal pyramid and not having customers!) How do you plan on stopping this crap, with a one customer rule? This has been going on for decades and the companies and government just look the other way and the distributor is unknowingly caught in the middle of something that is questionable to say the least!

    KT: A one customer rule, if enforced, is a game changer. The key is enforcement. Suppose someone is selling $1,000 lemonade….clearly the only way to make money is to focus on recruiting and internal consumption i.e. “Just drink it and recruit 10 people…” If there was a sales requirement, it changes everything. It would not work to require 5 customers, for example, because the value of a customer is not static. If a distributor gets one customer that spends $300 a month, it’s more than sufficient. So requiring 5, 10 or 20 customers per distributor is too arbitrary a number.

    13. Why did you chose to represent the mlm companies instead of the distributors knowing these abuses occur? And how do you plan to stop these abuses?

    KT: webelieved, I’m sorry you had a bad experience. But simply because you had a bad experience does not mean it’s indicative of the entire industry. I love working with MLM companies because in most cases, they’re good people that really want to change the world with their products. Go to a ThirtyOne Bag party and I’m sure you’ll realize that it’s not a scam. There are countless companies out there that are fantastic. With limited shelf space out there, people are looking for ways to sell their products. Direct selling is a century old strategy and it’s not going away. Plus, I choose to represent companies because they have more responsibility and more influence. If I can influence a company in the early stages to get off a problematic path, the ripple effect can be substantial.

    14. If you know a client is doing things unethical possibly illegal are you bound by law to report it? And to whom? Not saying it happened to you, just wondering what is the ethical duty to the public, of an attorney working for a company ?

    KT: Lawyers must reveal client confidences to “prevent reasonably certain death or substantial bodily harm.” The attorney client privilege is sacred, in my opinion, and I take it very seriously.

    webelieved, I hope this information helped and I hope you’re sensitive to my limitations on what I can and cannot say.

  62. Vogel permalink
    November 8, 2011 2:56 pm

    Kevin: “I’m really high in the industry and I’ve seen the good. I’ve also seen the bad.”

    I’ve read your resume — the one thing I’m flabbergasted by is that you can simply step over the fact that you were directly involved with what is arguably among the worst organizations in MLM history — TEAM/Monavie. Quite the trail of victims left behind.

    This, and your fawning comments about Troy Dooly, severely undermine your credibility and professionalism IMO. If you take Troy seriously, then I find it really difficult to take you seriously. Honestly, if he represents the vanguard of your industry, then you’ve got yet another problem on your hands. How you could fail to see that is incomprehensible to me.

    And how about this idea — don’t associate with companies that illegally promote $45 a bottle toxic fruit punch as medicine. That’s Monavie’s MO from front to back. The organization lied about virtually every aspect of the product since the day it was launched, and Monavie was simply a continuation of Dallin Larsen’s Royal Tongan Limu scam (shut down by the FDA). Your industry is rife with this snakeoil ripoff BS, and yet here you are talking about pay plans and playing pat-a-cake with fools like Drooly.

    As a side note, when you are referring to MLM, don’t whitewash the issues by referring to “direct selling”; they are not synonymous and treating the terms as thought they are is a disingenuous apologist tactic.

  63. November 8, 2011 4:50 pm

    Yeap, as I said earlier….we gotta huge fight on our hands.

  64. Mike Collins permalink
    November 8, 2011 4:50 pm

    I reposted this to make it easier to read:

    Kevin said: “As for ways you can help, the DSA has power because they’re well organized. They can tap into the member company’s databases and get people to send messages to local legislators”

    Also: “The bill I wrote was a real bill with some real safeguards. See below for a link to the article about the bill. Please read it and share your thoughts. The bill was killed within 48 hours by the DSA. I’ve since joined the DSA in an effort to converse with the right people about addressing the real problems”

    Kevin, you cannot seriously think that the DSA would ever facilitate the kind of action proposed in the first quote of yours I listed when considering the second can you? The very organization that you are a part of quickly mobilized its attorneys and lobbyists to have your legislation shot down. You must be joking. The DSA is a joke! They are nothing more than the lobbying arm of a corrupt industry funded by corrupt companies.

    Troy loves to cite their bullshit statistics when apologizing for the industry and all of its deception. Here is one of his favorites: “70% of people that join an MLM do so to get the products at a discount.” This is completely false and I can prove it. I’ve already done it with organizations that number in the thousands. When people realize they are not and will not ever make any money in the MLM Company they are in they quickly stop using the product.
    Here is industry icon Rod Cook: “The 95% failure rate for MLM-Network Marketing is a fraud statistic. Why? Because it is a proven statistic that 70% of the people that join an MLM – Network Marketing company DROP OUT – and that is different from failing. Who has ever sent out a survey asking “Did you fail at MLM- Network Marketing?” No one with any credibility. Just some MLM – Network critics that hate the industry, and their survey’s are very suspect (read that as dreamed up).

    You see that?? He said: “70% of the people that join an MLM – Network Marketing company DROP OUT”

    Here is my question: WHICH IS IT?? Do 70% drop out or do 70% sign up to get the products for free?? It can’t be both.

    I’ll tell you the answer: ROD IS RIGHT!!! At least there is one thing coming out of his mouth that is true. 70% drop out when they realize that the money and the freedom they were sold on is a PIPE DREAM! The compensation plans virtually guarantee this.

    There IS a 95% failure rate in MLM and those that deny it are either ignorant or are LIARS. Period…end of story. This is WHY the corruption exists.

    The retailing requirement that you would like to see is never going to happen. Do you know why? Because 99% of these products are either crap or are priced so high the general public won’t buy them. What is it about this stuff that you and Troy don’t get???

    Here’s a thought: instead of you and Troy wasting your time trying to change a corrupt industry that is represented by the DSA who is bought and paid for by the very industry of which we speak from the inside……why don’t you show what mavericks you truly are and go public, and to the FTC for that matter, about the stuff you REALLY know? And I know you know Kevin. If Troy has figured it out you surely have….

  65. November 8, 2011 10:09 pm

    I completely agree with Vogel’s comments.

    “”Humiliated, I agree that there’s a plethora of bad companies in the industry. It does not make the industry 100% corrupt. Plus, the MLM industry is not going away. Complaining about the industry in general is fine; however, it would be better if you and people that share your views pushed for ways to make it safer. The focus should be on ways to require certain safeguards to protect people.””

    Kevin’s suggestion to push for safer ways by the critics is ignorant. I personally belief that a company that wants to do the morally, ethically wrong things will continue doing so because it will get away with it; a scammed individual does not have the money to hire someone to bring his case in court. No law or safeguard will change this attitude of a company with greedy leaders and corrupt intentions.

    And, by the way, how are you, as a prospect, able to know which companies in the MLM industry are corrupt or not? Kevin, on which facts did/do you make this decision?

    As long as it is not clear, which company you can or cannot trust, every MLM enterprise should be considered as a high-risk investment with a 99% chance of losing money, and a negative interest rate; of course these results are based on the results of the past (;).

    The safest environment for any person is to get or to stay far, far, far away from any MLM business.

  66. November 8, 2011 11:56 pm


    I’m not stepping over the fact that I was involved with Team. It’s right there, front and center on all of my bio information on all of my pages. I believe you were involved with the program as well, right? Regarding your reference to it being “my industry,” I can say with certainty it’s not going anywhere. The publicly known detractors that want the space disintegrated are completely ignored. Jon Taylor, widely known MLM critic, even admits that some MLMs are fine. With that in mind, what can be done to improve the model? What do you think of the bill I proposed? Where does it fall short? As for splitting hairs over “direct selling” versus “MLM,” the terms are inter-changeable. My wife went to a Matilda Jane party last week…she bought a dress for our daughter DIRECTly from the distributor….multiple people got rewarded (MLM).

    Amthrax, I think LIFE’s P&P’s are fairly typical in the industry. Based on the template, I think they came from Gerald Nehra. Gerry is a great lawyer and a kind man. The particular provision that you referenced is unique to me…I’ve never seen it before. However, I do understand the spirit of why it’s written. I see companies struggle frequently with distributors using surrogates to violate the policies i.e. a “wife” will enroll in a competing business, a daughter will take Dad’s list and handle the solicitations, etc. Is it enforceable? I do not know. I was more surprised to see a six month noncompete in the P&Ps. But honestly, it could be a simple oversight…these might not be the final policies. It happens all the time….a client fails to review every line of the 40+ page document and fixes it later when it’s brought to their attention by someone else. Do I think these policies are harsh? I think they’re typical (with the exception of a couple of sections) and I imagine they’ll be softened up in the near future once they’ve had to time to collect some feedback. The noncompete, arbitration clause, non solicitation and trade secret provision are all very common provisions. The company is in the driver seat…they have the product, the opportunity and the liability. This puts them in a unique position. I hope this is helpful.

  67. humiliated permalink
    November 9, 2011 6:27 am

    Kevin, you are indeed guilty by association. Let’s not forget, we didn’t seek YOU out, YOU came on here defending Troy and, as a result, I looked further into you and your background. If you don’t want to be “lumped in with the shortcomings of the MLM industry”, then stop representing companies involved with them, otherwise you need to take your lumps.

    I am sorry, but you have the freaking audacity to say that the above words are “not fair and irresponsible”, what the industry that you have chosen to align yourself with is NOT FAIR AND IRRESPONSIBLE. You say that there are a plethora of bad companies out there, you DO get that these companies are responsible for destroying the lives of many, right? That many of them use cult tactics and lie about their products (and I am not talking little white lies, these are WHOPPERS and you know it) in order to keep their distributor’s involved? And, as Vogel pointed out, I am not talking direct sales here (I have no doubt that there are good direct sales companies out there), I am talking about the MLM industry so please don’t conflate the two. When you have physically seen someone lose their home and business, and move to shut down the industry that caused this, then you can talk to me about fair and responsible.

    Call me a pessimist, but I have been trying to figure out why you wrote this infamous “bill”, knowing that it would NEVER IN A MILLION YEARS be accepted by the DSA. I deal with attorney’s every day in my job and I know that you are a sharp bunch. You know that going to the DSA with this bill would be like going to the head of a drug cartel to stop the drug trade. Was this done to gain crediblity with distributors who have a conscience (which, I believe most do)so that you could slide into the DSA and pretend that you are now changing things from the inside out thus buying you and this industry more credibility? The responsible thing to have done was to go straight to the FTC with your information and your recommendations, but then I guess you would be down a few clients.

    You say that the MLM industry is not going anywhere, well, call ME an optimist but I don’t believe that, and I sure as hell am not going to stop revealing the truth about it. There is a class action law suit in Arkansas (as you know) and maybe this will help more people “come out of the closet”. Like anything, there has to be awareness brought to an issue and that is what we are doing here. We have been sending our complaints into the FTC, blogging, doing what we can. It seems to be effective because we have attracted an audience from both sides of the debate.

  68. humiliated permalink
    November 9, 2011 6:39 am

    And Kevin, here is what you said about hiding behind pseudynoms:

    ” As for me personally, I’ve published a number of anonymous comments across the web years ago and I’ve found that I take waaaaay too many liberties under a pseudonym. I just stick with my name and it keeps me honest. I’m not judging you or anyone else on this blog for posting anonymously. But for me personally, seeing my name keeps me restrained. Anonymous speech is a power that’s difficult to wield responsibly. ”

    The implication or “intent’ of your email was that we were someone NOT being honest, we were being irresponsible and were taking waaaay too many liberties. How do you not see that as an accusation of hiding behind our pseudynoms when it clearly is??

    The truth is the truth no matter who says it or how it is said.

  69. outsider permalink
    November 9, 2011 8:55 pm

    Such thought provoking questions everyone here has been posting . . .
    I just want to jump in and cut to the chase for a moment because I’m hoping to keep some of this from getting lost in the noise.

    Kevin Thompson said: ” . . . I personally understand the affects of what happens when these models are abused. . . ”

    Oh. Well, glad to hear it, BUT **that is no replacement for understanding what happens when these models are used as intended.**
    THAT is what the folks on this site describe, of course. THAT is the discussion here because that is truly the ugliest part of the whole mess. (It’s not at all reasonable that someone like Kevin Thompson would NOT understand that.)

    In a later post, Kevin Thompson said: “Troy’s mission is to start a conversation . . . that will be beneficial for the industry at large.”

    Mm-hmm. Let’s just not forget that what’s “beneficial for the industry” is also detrimental to consumers. So, that’s a conversation that nobody needs. (Well, unless you’re into the whole racketeering thing, I guess.)

    Lastly, in case any newbies might be unclear as to whether what benefits MLM is actually detrimental to consumers, luckily Kevin Thompson makes that quite clear for us when he confirms that the LIFE comp plan is “typical.” Kudos for removing any doubt for future readers as to what’s what in the MLM world. A newbie need only click and read the LIFE plan that’s posted on this site and then imagine a whole “industry” with similar “contracts.” That does clear things up.

  70. Speak Your Truth permalink
    November 9, 2011 10:14 pm


    Thanks for coming and answering some of these questions, it is apprecitated. We all know and agree there are some true ‘direct sales’ companies; like avon, pampered chef, and maybe tupperware. I don’t think anyone disagrees nor is it even an issue, but it is very hard to believe the majority are good.

    We all know the problems don’t lie with those few companies, you, I, and all of us know this and we all know that there is a difference between ‘direct sales’ and MLM. Or at least Most of us when referring to MLM are referring to endless recruitment based, internal consumption companies and the conflict of clumping them all together makes them all appear good, and that is simply not the case. Especially the ones most of our experiences on here came from.

    Why we are here is not because of those few good companies and also think a lot can be changed from our experiences on here. I believe those that know the truth, are willing and if people would use the obvious, what causes so much damage and loss and make the changes based on actual experiences, then some great changes could occur. I personally am not to optimistic at least not for the distributor side of the coin.

    I believe you understand the issues that we all have experienced. It seems though that you believe the majority of the industry as a whole is good and that is not what we are seeing nor matches are experiences. There are numerous companies and testimonies that treat their distributors much like what we have experienced, but it doesn’t seem that is where anyone cares to focus the protection there.

    I think you can understand how we percieve, by supporting the whole industry, based on experiences we know it isn’t all good. Which ones do you believe are good ones and are a true direct sales or MLM’s that are not internal consumption companies and has anyone, anywhere, seperated these companies, the good from the bad, to help protect the consumer? Do you know of anyone who is working on protecting the consumer, prospect, or distributor on educating them?

    Do you believe in full mandatory and transparent disclosure by the companies, or do you believe goverment regulation is a good idea for MLM?

    I believe it is a must, and also think it is a start to clean up the ‘bad’, especially based on experience, this forces honesty.We all know the problem without it and it leaves companies and those who run them without any accountablity. This is how the numbers can be fudged, and all kinds of deception occurs and if full disclosure was mandatory we know it would give people a way better chance of being honestly informed and less chance to be deceived, intentionally.

    It may even curb some of the extreme false hype. I feel if companies are that good as they all tout, then let the numbers and transparency speak for itself. We all know left up to the companies what happens and to me it is obvious why they don’t. Companies being protected in nondisclosure; how can anyone make a true informed decision or really trust them? Especially with the horendous attrition rates and quaranteed failure rates and the reputation the industry has. Wouldn’t this build more trust and weed out the ‘bad ones’ naturally?

    Because again from our experiences, it is how they get away with saying, promising, pretty much anything they want, they can promise the moon, lie, deceive, and never are held responsible, no matter what they promise or aren’t held accountable for making illegal income and product claims; lets be completely honest, we all know the training comes from the top down. And those that are honest and good have nothing to worry about.

    Very disturbing when we hear companies say they can’t control this, when we know better, especially coming from and know exactly how the fast and information is repeated and flows. The verdict has been out for years and the results are obvious what happens when allowing them to police themselves. They simply don’t or the training systems contridicate and teach otherwise.They say anything they want to entice, convince, and persuade the prospects and distributors to just get them in. And then if anyone does want to hold them accountable for downright abuses, they are pretty much out of luck, the companies have those typical contracts to protect them, which does not make it right or fair. We all know the rules are there but also know they are a joke and no one follows them.

    This to me is like asking a seasoned criminal, to police themselves, that have made millions of dollars for years to either give it up or follow rules and the laws that are in place, with one stimpulation allow them to decide and no one is watching; left up to their own honor system. This will never work because where there is money to be had, the rules and laws get ignored, and deliberately broken, again; speaking from experience and as result is why there is so much distain.

    Kevin, it is hard to believe in an industry for at least me, that has witnessed for years, were everyone from the top down claim, integrity, honesty, etc. but reality is the actions have been the extreme opposite.

    I realize you know most of us on here will never again be a part of any MLM, nor support the majority and know we see there is more flaws than good. But another serious, unviable and unfair practice, is the endless recruiting. Everyone knows in a real legitimate sales company there are protected territories for the sales force, by the company. We also know first hand what creates the unethical behavor, that is wide spread and is inevitable when it is a free for all, and the things people do to get someone in.

    I also know this is totally unrealistic, that there isn’t going to be an MLM on the planet that would even recognize this flaw and do something about it, but we all know it is a big problem and if real change comes it is because people are not in denial of the truth.

    Then there is the ‘special deals’ and the deception that follows, the majority of losses in the comp plans and how this is brushed under the rug, and much more but this is already too long.

    Thanks for listening, and whether you answer back or not at least maybe you will see what we see, can use some of it and it will give you something to think about for your bill. Thanks. 🙂

  71. Vogel permalink
    November 9, 2011 10:56 pm

    Kevin: “Vogel, I’m not stepping over the fact that I was involved with Team. It’s right there, front and center on all of my bio information on all of my pages.”

    Yes, I noticed that you don’t mind boasting about it as a resume entry, but what you’re stepping over are the implications. You profited through association with an atrocious scam and now you seem to want people to view you as a non-partisan consumer advocate. It’s pretty clear whose interests you really represent.

    Kevin: “I believe you were involved with the program as well, right?”

    When did I ever say that I was involved with the “program”? Stick to the facts lawyer; don’t fish.

    Kevin: “Regarding your reference to it being “my industry,” I can say with certainty it’s not going anywhere.”

    I bet Pablo Escobar said that about the Medellin cartel too, just before he got shot by the Federales. Seriously, though, I don’t see what you’re trying to accomplish with the false bravado. Your industry is not immune to being scrubbed and severely restricted/regulated, so you shouldn’t act so smug. In fact, the momentum that’s building here could be a significant impetus for such change. Lord knows there’s a lot more insightful discussion going on here than you’d see in a thousand years of Drooley’s insipid blogs (and yet you laud him for initiating dialog…pfft!).

    Kevin: “The publicly known detractors that want the space disintegrated are completely ignored.”

    Who are you even talking about? And who is it that is ignoring the detractors? You? Orrin? Dallin? The DSA? Regulators who the DSA lobbies? Maybe the detractors simply need to make more noise so that they can’t be ignored.

    Kevin: “Jon Taylor, widely known MLM critic, even admits that some MLMs are fine. With that in mind, what can be done to improve the model? What do you think of the bill I proposed? Where does it fall short?

    Jon Taylor sure as hell wouldn’t think that TEAM/Monavie are fine, and it’s their teets you suckled on. What do I think of your bill proposal? I think it’s laughably myopic and I don’t think that it is you or any other DSA/MLM meat puppet that people should be relying on to draft legislation. We need keep the foxes out of the henhouse.

    Kevin: “As for splitting hairs over “direct selling” versus “MLM,” the terms are inter-changeable.”

    Don’t try to BS me Kev; it’s insulting. Single-level marketing is a form of direct selling but it is not MLM, so clearly the terms aren’t interchangeable. I don’t believe that you are so naïve as to not know that the mere name “MLM” carries a stigma and that this fact is a persistent PR problem for the industry – so deceptive terminology like “direct selling” and “network marketing” are used for damage control so as to not immediately turn off consumers.

    I’ve said this before, but I’ll say it again: if you want to clean up MLM, you have to get rid of the “ML” — the multi-level aspect — and then all you’re left with is “M” – marketing — poof…your industry ceases to exist. Problem solved.

  72. outsider permalink
    November 10, 2011 5:29 am

    SYT asked: “Do you know of anyone who is working on protecting the consumer, prospect, or distributor on educating them?”

    I do. I think Kevin Thompson and Troy Dooly and Orrin Woodward and Dallin Larsen know, too. It’s you! You all are doing something here.

  73. I QUIT (and glad I did) permalink
    November 10, 2011 6:21 am

    Hey Believed, good choice on the name! In Sicilian, the phrase that referred to what they were involved in was “La Cosa Nostra”. Which translates into “This thing of ours.” Hmmmm.

  74. November 10, 2011 7:00 am

    Humiliated, I did not go to the DSA with the bill. I went directly to the legislators in Tennessee. I got them to sponsor it. Once sponsored, it was history. I did not do it to gain credibility. On the contrary, it was bad for business. When I see a problem and it’s within my power to fix it, I try to fix it. The bill was consistent with a lengthy ebook I wrote. Read it and I think you’ll understand that the challenge in the MLM industry is the “gray” area separating legal from illegal companies. And after reading it, perhaps you’ll understand that I’m not a “fox in a henhouse” as Vogel suggests.

    Second, how do you know I have not conversed with members of the FTC? I’ve been contacted by them and the SEC on numerous occasions. As for attracting an audience from both sides, I only wish that people on this site would avoid flaming out anyone that holds an opinion different from yours. The audience that you attract from the other side of the debate does not hang around long here.

  75. November 10, 2011 7:13 am


    I wish I could help on your specific question about enforceability of an agreement that you’re not allowed to keep. If you feel strongly about it, I suggest you seek advice from someone in your local area. It’s not a complicated question and I think you already know the answer.

    Regarding your statement about distributors carrying risk, I agree. But since the company is the one with the product and compensation plan, they draft the agreement. And contrary to popular belief, the Policies needs to be lengthy to avoid confusion….I know it’s counter intuitive. But when you have a sales force of average people looking to make a few bucks, the policies need to be crystal clear as to what they can and cannot do when marketing a product. And I completely GET your argument that in some cases, the policies are merely cosmetic…..they’re drafted only for show and they’re disregarded. It does happen….but not all of the time.

    I’m glad you mentioned that we’re not talking about the “Avon Lady.” Yes, there’s a difference between pyramid schemes and Avon. Avon is a great company. Avon is a MLM. Instead of people pushing to evaporate the industry, the focus needs to be on a way to distinguish between the legitimate companies and the pyramids. In your mind, what makes Avon different? I think the answer lies in a focus on customer sales. It’s the keystone to the whole argument. Paying commissions on internal consumption is fine and it’s currently legal. So instead of screaming “it’s a scam,” think of ways to change the existing laws to ensure that 100% of the revenue does NOT come from internal consumption i.e. $1000 lemonade companies. After thinking about it for a long time and doing a lot of work on it, I landed on a “condition precedent” requirement whereby reps could not earn a commission unless they sold SOMETHING to an external customer. Can it be gamed? Yes…but with increased investigative powers at the AG level (which the bill covers), the risk would be mitigated.

  76. November 10, 2011 7:18 am

    Outsider, I never said LIFE’s comp plan was “typical.”

    Speak Your Truth, thanks for the kind words. I understand that when people have a terrible experience, they’re never coming back. The single best thing the DSA can do to improve the industry’s reputation is to find a way to weed out the bad companies. It starts with legislation. Will it ever happen? I’m an optimist. Thankfully, they’ve been open to having a conversation and I’m currently working with a committee to revisit their model, anti-pyramid bill. We’ll see what happens.

  77. November 10, 2011 7:19 am

    Outsider, I never said LIFE’s comp plan was “typical.” I said their Policies were typical.

  78. November 10, 2011 7:39 am


    It’s going to take more than a bullet to take a $100B+ industry down. It’s never happened in history and it’s not going to happen in this case. If you want to decimate the entire space by eliminating override commissions, it’s just not going to happen. It’s not false bravado. As I mentioned with webelieved, Avon is a great company. Pampered Chef is a great company. They have multi-level compensation programs. The challenge is in creating legislation to help distinguish the good companies from the illegal pyramids. It’s a challenging task because the whole idea of paying commission on internal consumption makes it tricky.

    I’m not a “fox in a henhouse” as you suggested. The first thing I did when started my own practice was write an ebook about the importance of shrinking the “gray area” between legitimate companies from MLMs. Please read it. The gray area is the problem….not the industry.

    Also, I’ve been the only MLM attorney to ever sue a company for pyramiding. I took some heat when I sued eFusjon in a class action lawsuit. After taking heat for filing the lawsuit, it prompted a statement. The link is below.

    So that’s what I’m doing to fix the problem as I see it. Is it working? We’ll see. Are you efforts on this website working? Who knows. Different strategies, same hill. If people can at least acknowledge that there’s legitimate companies in the space, there’s enough common ground to have a meaningful conversation about improving it.

  79. November 10, 2011 8:23 am


    Till this day I am glad I found this site to avoid to make the biggest mistake in my life. I really believe this site is going to make a difference, because people get the real facts about the MLM business. The only way to get rid of the sharks in the MLM business industry is to prevent new prospects entering their companies.The contributors of this site help to raise awareness of the many problems and scams someone is facing doing a MLM business. They educate people to learn to think independently, critically, and trust their gut feeling.

    You say you are an optimist, but you are also naive. Legislation will not prevent the leaders of those MLM companies to do business in a honest way. Their corrupt minds will find holes in new legislation to avoid any responsibility; they are only in the game to fill their own pockets by abusing other people. I have seen that happening with other industries where legislation became stricter, but the corruption stayed (even so-called respectable companies kept on avoiding the law).

    Finally, am I assuming correctly that you agree with me that as long as it is not clear which MLM companies are trustworthy or not, everyone should stay away from them?

  80. Vogel permalink
    November 10, 2011 9:04 am

    Kev said: “The single best thing the DSA can do to improve the industry’s reputation is to find a way to weed out the bad companies.”

    That’s a deceptive crock of $hit Kevlar. The DSAs members include “bad companies” – take LifeVantage for example. Try and defend what they are doing and you’ll lose even more credibility. A more blatant and offensive snakeoil scam would be hard to find. The DSA exists to protect the interests of the very same companies that you suggest should be weeded out to improve the DSAs reputation. Ridiuclous!

    Kev said: “It’s going to take more than a bullet to take a $100B+ industry down. It’s never happened in history and it’s not going to happen in this case.”

    Sounds like you forgot to take your daily dose of positive affirmation from those TEAM inspirational materials. Anything is possible if you just believe, remember? If it takes more than a bullet, then we’ll have to eventually wheel in the cannons. Watch your back.

    Kev said: “As I mentioned with webelieved, Avon is a great company. Pampered Chef is a great company. They have multi-level compensation programs. The challenge is in creating legislation to help distinguish the good companies from the illegal pyramids. It’s a challenging task because the whole idea of paying commission on internal consumption makes it tricky.”

    It becomes more challenging and tricky because of the DSA and foxes in the henhouse like you who help spin this ridiculous propaganda for shady MLMs who hide under the umbrella of the 2 or so borderline reputable MLMs, like Avon and PC. But Avon and PC are not representative of your industry. They are exceptions to the rule. It makes me sick to hear someone from a snakeoil scam like Monavie or Protandim trying to bask in the safe warm glow of Pampered Chef or Avon, when what they are doing bears little if any resemblance to those two companies.

    The issues here are not merely pay plans or retail sales quotas, and until you can openly admit that, I have no respect whatsoever for your self-serving prattle. Using unqualified salespeople to promote health-related products is a proven recipe for disaster. The model is not chosen for legitimate reasons (i.e. efficiency of distribution) but to allow companies to illegally promote products as medicine while being partially insulated from legal culpability (i.e. plausible denial). If you can be man enough to propose something that would eliminate this, like barring MLMs from selling health-related products and/or giving regulatory agencies a clear mandate and much greater power to shut down these operations, then you’re just beating around the bush. But realistically, I don’t expect you to bite the hand that feeds you.

  81. November 10, 2011 9:30 am

    I’m not sure about barring MLM health companies altogether will do it either, it’s how the companies are supposed to act. I’m a member of Melaleuca, and 2 of my friends are members of Shaklee. All of us have no complaints about their products or customer services at all. Both are online health food stores (w/beauty/cleaning products) and both are also based on an MLM system. The FTC does have strict health-claim regulations (so does FDA) but they’re not being followed up on so strictly from some companies’ headquarters. (Monavie being one example)

    I personally would like to see tighter legislation on tools companies. Woodward has a tools company that’s basically only operational by coercion tactics. We’ve all seen what it done to Amway (Woodward’s wasn’t the only one) and we’re now seeing what it’s doing in Monavie. People SHOULD be given at least 24 hours (or more) to review a contract, and people SHOULD be able to take contracts/policies/etc to an attorney. That’s their RIGHT. I have a huge issue with deals being done quickly, like it was done in MV/TEAM. We were to direct people to their dining-room/kitchen tables because THAT’S WHERE MAJOR DECISIONS ARE USUALLY MADE WITHIN THE FAMILY. Paperwork are whisked right through, and BANG! the person’s in. This needs to be stopped. And while you may say it’s our responsiblity to read through all legal documents, TEAM/LIFE also has a responsibility to respect that right to us consumers and give us time without the pressure tactic.

  82. Vogel permalink
    November 10, 2011 9:41 am

    You raise a good point. The Proposed Business Opportunity, had it been enacted, would have imposed some very effective safeguards to protect consumers, but the MLM industry and the DSA fought tooth and nail to be exempted.

    The industry had an opportunity to clean itself up and it fought bitterly against it. Their efforts to defeat the rule revealed their true agenda and unwillingness to police itself.

  83. outsider permalink
    November 10, 2011 10:43 am

    Kevin Thompson said: “Outsider, I never said LIFE’s comp plan was “typical.” I said their Policies were typical.”

    Oh, by all means, we must correct that:

    “. . . in case any newbies might be unclear as to whether what benefits MLM is actually detrimental to consumers, luckily Kevin Thompson makes that quite clear for us when he confirms that the LIFE POLICIES ARE “typical.” Kudos for removing any doubt for future readers as to what’s what in the MLM world. A newbie need only click and read the LIFE policies posted on this site and then imagine a whole “industry” with similar “contracts.” That does clear things up.”

  84. outsider permalink
    November 10, 2011 11:54 am

    I found the following potentially useful for anyone wondering if MLM is “for them” or if it might perhaps be shady. (I know such folks wind up reading this site, as my own relatives did.)

    In Kevin Thompson’s article, “Legitimate MLM or Pyramid Scheme: How Can You Tell?,” (linked above), he says:

    “. . . [I’m asked] “Is this XYZ business I’m in an illegal pyramid scheme?” The answer is
    always the same.
    It depends.
    The analysis is always fact-driven, meaning a number of factors need to be
    considered. Although there is a cheat-sheet / mathematical formula available to help
    measure the legality of a business, it unfortunately requires sensitive data from a
    company that is never publicly available. So if you really need a concrete answer, you
    need to sue the company, get the data via discovery requests and depositions, hire a
    professional expert at $500 an hour to plug in the numbers, and then, $100,000 later (if
    you’re lucky), you’ll have your answer.”

    That’s an attorney deep into this business saying that you won’t really know the legality of an MLM without hiring an attorney to dig up what the MLM wants to hide.

    OK, who wants to “enter an opportunity” without knowing if it’s legal? Well, now you know what you have to do to find out the answer to whether or not an MLM is legal. Anybody still interested?

    [And of course, need we even ask WHY MLMs might hide such data in the first place? A minute of thought on that question serves to save a person the lawsuit/discovery/expert route, any way.]

    Thanks to Kevin Thompson for making all that so fabulously clear. For the “prospect”/mark, those words could be more useful than all the Q-and-A above put together!

  85. November 11, 2011 10:47 pm

    So the conclusion is that you all must come together and defeat the wrong and be the solution… Good luck my brothers, all things in this world are not all good but the good can overcome all evil with hard work and effort.. Besides the evil itself..oh my…

    &b4 the hate and rage: I really don’t think Life is child molesting. and Kevin has some real good logical responses along with troy.

  86. November 12, 2011 10:02 am


    You must have such a sick mind to use to the child molestation example to defend LIFE; as if this shocking molesting happens daily at all colleges in the US. Honestly, I was waiting for such a remark of “your side” since this terrible news came out.

    BTW the bloggers here do not offer a solution. They just want people to read their experiences, and hope that they open their eyes, and/or to make a careful, balanced decision. I see them as volunteers who are helping people who want to be helped.

    I saw you started a blog as well. “I will continue hearing the many speeches of Orrin Woodward that do inspire and teach many things and “truths”, and read the many “truths” the blog Amthrax and a loyal band of posters provide.”

    I am just curious. Apparently you do not believe the “truths” on both sides. But aren’t you afraid, when you go to Woodward’s seminars to hear his inspiring speeches, of becoming a lying bas^&rd yourself? You write evil is everywhere. I agree, and add that the (d)evil is very good in disguising; maybe you should look a little closer next time you visit a seminar.

  87. das permalink
    November 12, 2011 10:12 am

    Lykwow, open your mind a bit a read the comp plan and the P&P if you want logic. Have you read them yet? That information is not from this site so go read it.

    I don’t think you are qualified to call me your brother because I like many other leaders that left Team got tired of living the lies and deception that you are still perpetuating. I am not your brother. I believe you are right about one thing though, good can overcome evil and you and I will be judged in the end, be sure of that.

  88. Mike Collins permalink
    November 12, 2011 10:48 am

    @ Lykwow: Yes, they both have some logical responses. And yet the more I read the more I am convinced that it is like so much window dressing. They pay lip service to making changes to the industry while seeking to “suckle at the teets” of it.

    A great example is the open letter to Efusion from Kevin. Why Efusion Kevin?? Why not Monavie?? I’m curious, when you wrote the below article were you still employed by “Team”? Both you and Troy have different standards for different companies. Both of you are very careful in regard to whose toes you will step on.

    I love this quote from you that Outsider posted (thanks outsider):

    1. In Kevin Thompson’s article, “Legitimate MLM or Pyramid Scheme: How Can You Tell?,” (linked above), he says:
    “. . . [I’m asked] “Is this XYZ business I’m in an illegal pyramid scheme?” The answer is
    always the same.
    It depends.
    The analysis is always fact-driven, meaning a number of factors need to be
    considered. Although there is a cheat-sheet / mathematical formula available to help
    measure the legality of a business, it unfortunately requires sensitive data from a
    company that is never publicly available. So if you really need a concrete answer, you
    need to sue the company, get the data via discovery requests and depositions, hire a
    professional expert at $500 an hour to plug in the numbers, and then, $100,000 later (if
    you’re lucky), you’ll have your answer.”

    This is a glaring admission, in my opinion, of the dishonesty of the industry. I don’t know how one can see it any other way. The fact is that this describes 99% of the MLM companies in existence today. (exclude Avon and any other company that has a similar compensation structure as they ARE NOT THE SAME.) Avon may pay on multiple levels but they ARE a direct sales company. MLM is NOT direct sales. They ARE two entirely different animals (Kevin or Troy: feel free to demonstrate your propensity for obscuring the truth by regurgitating the DSA rhetoric on this point)

    So here is my question again: Why Efusion? Where are your other examples? It’s easy to pick one company that you know is doomed and write a “hard hitting” piece on it then point to it as though it validates your position. Hardly. Mere window dressing……..

    What I find utterly laughable is that you and Troy both fully understand the industry and yet you think you’re going to change it from the inside of the DSA, a corrupt organization funded by a bunch of corrupt companies to protect their interests. What a joke.

    I’ll tell you what is going to change the industry. It’s the educating of the masses and government regulation. When the masses stop getting in, the industry will be forced to change. When the government steps in and starts talking to people, like the individuals on this blog who know the industry and aren’t afraid to tell what they know, THEN we will see some change.

    I know that you and Troy like to fancy yourselves as part of the solution but I don’t see it that way at all. You’re part of the problem.

  89. Vogel permalink
    November 12, 2011 2:14 pm

    I agree word for word Mike. And I too was very curious about the real reason for going after Efusjon. I assumed it was simply to undermine one of Monavie’s competitors.

  90. November 12, 2011 2:49 pm

    webelieved, I hope you find that ebook informative. The facts you referenced in your last comment are VERY specific and not indicative of the majority of companies in the industry, in my opinion. While you’re acknowledging that Avon is a legitimate company, please understand that it IS a MLM. It’s a good one and yes, their sales culture is focused on product, which makes them very different from recruitment focused pyramid schemes. However, when it comes to crafting tighter regulations, the challenge lies in creating objective standards in the law that empower states sort the bad companies from the Avons. They ALL pay override commissions on downline volume, so we’re not able to simply say “Avon is just different.” Drawing up a bill that acknowledges Avon’s legitimacy while at the same time empowering a state to shut down a pyramid scheme is tricky surgery. Personally, I think my bill moves the needle far enough. But I’m open for suggestions.

  91. November 12, 2011 3:11 pm


    I’m not using examples of “the 2 or so borderline reputable” MLMs. There are dozens of other great examples with similar sales cultures. I’m only using those as examples because they’re household names and there’s really no debate about whether they’re legitimate. So if you’re willing to acknowledge that they’re legitimate, the challenge then lies in creating a bill that acknowledges their legitimacy while at the same time empowering states to identify and shut down pyramid schemes in a cost effective manner. Right now, with the ambiguity in the law, it’s an expensive process. See my comment to webelieved above.

    Regarding your idea to prohibit MLMs from selling health-related products and/or giving the government more oversight, I agree with the latter point. With the former point, it’s not a good idea. Currently, anybody can sell private labeled products with a website and an internet connection. If you’re going to prohibit MLMs, why stop there? Tim Ferriss basically wrote a whole book about selling nutritional products online (4 Hour Workweek). And what about small health retailers. What makes them more qualified? Go to a Vitamin Shoppe and ask the clerk whether alkaline water or vitamin C can prevent cancer. I personally saw a clerk comment about the cancer preventing properties of some product with aloe. Do we make sellers go through a registration requirement to sell health supplements? And if yes, how do we control their sales people? Look, I’m not trying to play a mind game on this issue, I just want you to realize it’s not as simple as saying “MLMs should be precluded from selling health products.” I’m sensing that your problems with MonaVie run a little deeper than just the health claims being made. Instead, it probably has a lot to do with internal consumption and their model.

    Regarding your comment about me suing eFusjon to take out one of MonaVie’s competitor, it’s absurd. There’s not other way to describe it. It’s absurd. The claims made against eFusjon had a number of parallels to MonaVie’s model. Plus, I’ve never been a MonaVie apologist. This link should be proof of that fact:

    Why eFusjon and why not MonaVie? First, eFusjon was a small fry compared to MonaVie. They barely warranted the title of “competitor.” I’m not even sure MonaVie was selling energy drinks at the time. Second, I’m not able to even THINK about taking a stance against MonaVie because of a conflict (assuming there’s a claim). Attorneys are precluded representing a party that is materially adverse to a former client. Third, I know while this audience is fixated on MonaVie, it might come as a surprise to learn that I’m not. I received a number of complaints about eFusjon’s model and after reviewing their policies and speaking with people, I took a swing. Unlike a lot of MLMs, eFusjon had zero policies targeted towards requiring selling. When a company has the policies on paper, it’s an expensive endeavor to prove that they willingly ignore their own rules. It’s very fact intensive. But when the policies are lacking, it’s easier. During litigation, the dispute settled and eFusjon modified their business a few months before shutting the doors completely.

    Vogel, there’s no conspiracy here. Accusing me of being a “fox in a henhouse” and assuming that I’m in cahoots with MonaVie while suing a “competitor”….it’s all a bit of a stretch. And if you want to speak with me directly and ask me anything, I’m not hard to get a hold of.

    Mike Collins,

    While I applaud you for wanting to speak with the government, it will only bring change if you can specifically give them ideas on ways to fix the problem WHILE acknowledging the legitimate companies. Speaking with the FTC and telling them “shut it all down” is a non-starter. Read my prior comments and if you have ideas for legislation that will protect the good while sorting the bad, pitch it.

  92. Mike Collins permalink
    November 12, 2011 3:46 pm

    Kevin: “While I applaud you for wanting to speak with the government, it will only bring change if you can specifically give them ideas on ways to fix the problem WHILE acknowledging the legitimate companies. Speaking with the FTC and telling them “shut it all down” is a non-starter.

    Do you have comprehension problems Kevin? Where did I say anything like what you just wrote? Is this your attempt at putting words in my mouth or would you like to reread what I actually said?

    I said “I’ll tell you what is going to change the industry. It’s the educating of the masses and government regulation. When the masses stop getting in, the industry will be forced to change. When the government steps in and starts talking to people, like the individuals on this blog who know the industry and aren’t afraid to tell what they know, THEN we will see some change.”

    I don’t have to tell the FTC to “shut it all down” All that needs to happen is for the government to realize there is a need for regulation. The rest will take care of itself.
    This is why you and Troy are part of the problem. You want to have your cake and eat it too.

    Why are you even here anyway? You don’t even know the difference between a Direct Sales compensation structure and an MLM compensation structure. Do you think you’re adding value here or are you just here to run interference for your handlers???

  93. brent hansen permalink
    November 12, 2011 4:17 pm

    Kevin, I have been following this thread and appreciate your efforts and the fact that you are willing to have open communication, but I have to ask what your real agenda is? Are you fed up with the industry? At present how many MLM clients do you have? Are you really attempting to do what you say you are? If you are trying to make change in the industry, why? What is your story?

    Interesting enough, there has been quite a bit of back and forth (outside of this blog) between Troy, Michael and myself. I believe between the lot of us, we have enough knowledge, and supporting evidence to help give the industry a black eye.

    Now I am not naive enough to believe that in a David and Goliath situation, that David will always prevail, but some totally negative exposure could help educate the masses as to the realities that exist.

    For this discussion lets not utilize the DSA as a reliable reference for MLM data, because as we all know, their statistics are garbage. Any picture of MLM that the DSA paints is coated in their unscrupulous agenda.

    I happen to have a list of no less than 10 or so things that I would propose be changed to make the industry viable, but for now lets address these each one by one. And since the probability of change is about 1 in a million, I am going to shoot for the moon with each one of these. What the heck, why not list the things that would really create an ideal model for the masses.

    First piece of legislation I would propose would be TOTAL CORPORATE TRANSPARENCY.
    Since MLMs tout that they are partners with the distributors, and that they really care, why not require them to disclose all profit margins, executive compensation packages, and actual payout and allocation statistics to their entire distributor force? Total disclosure would help people educate themselves and make decisions based on the facts, not on some hyped up story told by their upline.

    Ok, and one more for now as well. Why not create legislation that would require them to remove all BREAKAGE MECHANISMS from their compensation plans? Every other company and industry operates off of fixed profit margins, why should MLM be exempt from that? Then, they would survive merely on the quality of their products, and services, as well as their compensation package. If a company needs a 20% margin to operate, why not create plans that have no breakage in place, and payout 80% in its entirety each and every month.

    How is that for starters? Looking forward to hearing from all of you on this. Thanks!

  94. Will permalink
    November 12, 2011 4:20 pm

    I think the fact that Kevin resigned from Orrin Woodwards scam says it all. He obviously could see the bullsh!t behind the scenes. I wish he would be more vocal about what a crook Orrin is, but I also understand the whole client confidentiality factor.

  95. November 12, 2011 4:29 pm


    Can you please answer my question, I posted earlier? Although I have never been and certainly will not ever participate in the MLM business, I am curious to read your answer.

    “Finally, am I assuming correctly that you agree with me that as long as it is not crystal clear which MLM companies are trustworthy or not, everyone should stay away from them?”
    Or if you not agree, what should someone do to protect him- or herself?

    In a way you need to answer the question: What are the characteristics of a honest MLM business or what are the characteristics of a dishonest MLM business?

    If you can answer this question, you can help a lot of people avoiding to become part of a MLM scam. Protect these people with your knowledge and wisdom, and share it on this blog.

    However, if it is even for you as a lawyer impossible to give a clear answer, how in heavens name are regular people able to know the difference between a good and a bad MLM.

    You need to agree with me that people should stay away from all MLM’s if you cannot explain the difference; otherwise your well-meant entries are apparently not so honorable and just another propaganda technique to promote (bad) MLM companies on this blog.

    Be brave enough to NOT ignore my question for the second time!

  96. Vogel permalink
    November 12, 2011 5:48 pm

    Kev: “I’m not using examples of ‘the 2 or so borderline reputable’ MLMs. There are dozens of other great examples with similar sales cultures. I’m only using those as examples because they’re household names and there’s really no debate about whether they’re legitimate.”

    Uh??? That was kind of a pointless half-assed denial. You just admitted to doing exactly as I said; you lumped MLMs in general behind 2 arguably legit well-known MLMs while completely sidestepping the blatant transgressions of Monavie and TEAM, who you represent(ed), and other equally nefarious companies.

    Kev: “So if you’re willing to acknowledge that they’re legitimate, the challenge then lies in creating a bill that acknowledges their legitimacy while at the same time empowering states to identify and shut down pyramid schemes in a cost effective manner.”

    First of all, I strenuously say F your idea about acknowledging legitimacy. The legislative intent here should be to effectively combat an abusive industry, not to introduce verbiage to burnish the MLM industry’s deservedly tarnished reputation. I can’t even believe that you would seriously suggest such a thing.

    Secondly, why (merely) empower states to tackles the issues. MLM involves interstate commerce so it falls under federal jurisdiction, and it could probably be tackled more effectively through a coordinated effort at the Federal (i.e., through existing agencies like the FDA, FTC, and CPB) level rather than through duplicative efforts at the state level. Besides, expecting a state like Utah (aka MLM Mecca) to police itself is beyond ridiculous because Utah’s politicians are funded by these very same companies. Utah’s Orrin Hatch and Jason Chaffetz (both funded by Utah supplement MLMs) and their legislative efforts are a big part of the problem. Sounds to me like you’re arguing for loopholes that would enable states to go soft on MLM. No way Jose.

    Kev: “Regarding your idea to prohibit MLMs from selling health-related products and/or giving the government more oversight, I agree with the latter point. With the former point, it’s not a good idea. Currently, anybody can sell private labeled products with a website and an internet connection. If you’re going to prohibit MLMs, why stop there?”

    MLMs are (ab)used specifically because they involve a distribution network that is affiliated with but not directly employed by the company, thereby diffusing some of the responsibility to individual distributors (recall Dallin Larceny’s classic comment about “herding the cats”), making it more difficult for regulators to police individual offenders and potentially limiting the ability of victims to recoup damages. By taking MLMs out of this sector, the sale of health-related products would be limited more to registered companies and their direct employees, who can more easily be held accountable for the claims they make. The people at Vitamin Cottage, Whole Foods Shop, or even the independent hippie health food store aren’t the big problem. There aren’t the ones putting millions of dollars of into covertly promoting their products as drugs — MLMs are though, and they hide behind their distributor network to muddy that fact. MLMs have become training academies that are unleashing armies of misinformed and highly-motivated liars (not all of whom realize they are lying) on an unsuspecting public. Other non-MLM sources surely contribute to the problem, but MLMs now play an especially significant and damaging role. I say cut off the head of the beast. I am way past the point of being concerned for an industry that contributes so little to so few. My concern now is solely with safeguards for the public against further victimization, and if that means scrapping most of the industry, I say good riddance. They do more harm than good overall anyway. Those who would miss it most are not friends of mine.

    Kev: “Look, I’m not trying to play a mind game on this issue, I just want you to realize it’s not as simple as saying “MLMs should be precluded from selling health products.”

    It could be just THAT simple. And I really dislike the way you arbitrarily dismiss such ideas as impossibilities. There are 2 main elements that come together to make a scam like Monavie as bad as it is: (1) illegal claims that illegally position the product as cure/treatment for diseases (FDA jurisdiction); and (2) the financial damage inflicted on misled consumers and misled/abused distributors (FTC jurisdiction). Obviously, if health-related products are eliminated from the realm of MLM, then the potential for injury to consumers is significantly mitigated because then only the financial risks would remain, thereby simplifying the regulatory challenges. I am displeased by scammy MLMs that sell overpriced cleaning products and the like, but conning people into buying and selling overpriced detergent that doesn’t clean very well is several order of magnitude more benign than telling people that Monavie’s toxified fruit punch cures F-ing cancer.

    Kev: “I’m sensing that your problems with MonaVie run a little deeper than just the health claims being made. Instead, it probably has a lot to do with internal consumption and their model.”

    Refer to comments above. As an addendum, I object to Monavie on just about EVERY conceivable level. Virtually nothing said about the product or company since day 1 has turned out to be true; and I really mean NOTHING. It combines the 3 elements of a pseduo-religious cult, a travelling snakeoil medicine show, and a pyramid scam into one highly offensive and destructive package.

    Kev: “Regarding your comment about me suing eFusjon to take out one of MonaVie’s competitor, it’s absurd. There’s not other way to describe it. It’s absurd. The claims made against eFusjon had a number of parallels to MonaVie’s model. Plus, I’ve never been a MonaVie apologist. This link should be proof of that fact: Why eFusjon and why not MonaVie? First, eFusjon was a small fry compared to MonaVie. They barely warranted the title of “competitor.” I’m not even sure MonaVie was selling energy drinks at the time.

    I think your forgot to say “absurd” a third time. I don’t think it’s absurd at all. You worked closely with Monavie as a paid service provider (on their P&Ps, which were chronically abused) and then you got involved in a lawsuit against a company that markets a DIRECT rival product (an MLM energy drink). According to the docket, the case against eFusjon was filed 11/09/2010 and discharged 02/07/2011. Did you conveniently forget the dates? Monavie eMV launched in June 2009 (in September 2010, eFusjon announced that they were killing off the MLM aspect of their business). Now you can you be absolutely 100% F-ing sure that Monavie was indeed “selling energy drinks at that time”. Go ahead and say “absurd” one more time MFer! I dare you!

    As for that link you provided to prove you aren’t a Monavie apologist, it didn’t help your case that this blog article of yours included the statement “I’m not doubting in Dallin’s ability to take charge of his business and reposition it to win. I’ve met Dallin. I like him.” That sounds like blatant pandering to me.

    As for the rest of that whole Ted Nuyten story, I never did trust what you wrote about it – the whole scenario never made sense. Why would Monavie send a CDO to Nuyten and not Coenen, who was the initial publisher of the second-hand data (which sent anonymously to Coenen by someone who she referred to only as an “unidentified source”)? The way the propaganda between you and Drooley revved up in response to this affair, the oddly rabid accusations about an insider breach of confidentiality, and Dallin Larceny’s cagey non-denial, all seemed suspiciously methodical and contrived. Even with the alleged decline in sales indicated in the allegedly “leaked insider report”, overall sales were still shown to be over a whopping half-billion for 2010.

    My intuition told me that perhaps this all may have been a setup to make people believe that MV was doing a half bil per year in sales, which seems implausibly exaggerated. Around the time that this alleged leak occurred, discussion forums had been challenging and uncovering evidence pertaining to Monavie’s claims to be a “billion dollar company”; an effort hindered by the fact that Monavie financials are not in the public domain and no hard data are available for analysis. It seemed a little too convenient that this “leaked” sales data appeared at such a convenient time to provide “insider evidence” showing that Monavie was generating staggeringly high sales revenue. And then you and Drooly wrote articles that galvanized the idea that this was leaked insider information. I ain’t buying it. Never did. And I’ll warn you preemptively, you’ve lost the right to use “absurd” in your response, should you choose to issue one.

    Kev: “Vogel, there’s no conspiracy here. Accusing me of being a “fox in a henhouse” and assuming that I’m in cahoots with MonaVie while suing a “competitor”….it’s all a bit of a stretch.”

    First, it’s entirely reasonable to say that you’re a fox in the henhouse given your client history, comments, and affiliation with the DSA. You may not like it, but it’s a fair label, so learn to deal with it.

    Kev: “And if you want to speak with me directly and ask me anything, I’m not hard to get a hold of.”

    You must be delusional. I can barely stomach this exchange. Here a suggestion for you. Either quit the MLM law business and commit yourself to being a convincing consumer advocate or go balls into MLM and do the industry’s bidding without pretense, but for crying out loud stop trying to portray yourself as a friend to both sides. It doesn’t play well.

  97. Mike Collins permalink
    November 12, 2011 6:10 pm

    In case you have a hard time comprehending what vogel just said Kevin it reads: CUT THE BULLSH@T! Pick a side and stay on it. That goes for you too Troy.

    Thanks for that Vogel

  98. Vogel permalink
    November 12, 2011 6:23 pm

    Cheers Mike!

  99. brent hansen permalink
    November 12, 2011 6:28 pm


    Since Michael’s pet peeve is MV, I can only picture him salivating while reading your post. Wonderful work, I think this should be aimed at Troy as well, just as Mike indicated.

  100. Vogel permalink
    November 12, 2011 6:41 pm

    Troy is as insignificant as dryer lint to me, but you’re right. I place more of a burden on Kev because he’s got a law degree and a veneer of authority. Drooly makes home videos posing in front of a US flag in his basement and seems about as credible as the guys who wear tin foil hats.

  101. November 12, 2011 8:18 pm


    MonaVie does just fine suing their own competitors. Just ask Zrii and XOWii. And if there was any precedence to come from the eFusjon lawsuit, it would not have boded well for MonaVie or any other company with marginal customer sales. There was no conspiracy there.

    As I’ll honor your request to avoid using demeaning words, I’m respectfully asking the you do the same. The Nuyten C&D letter from MonaVie was real and the response was real. It was not premeditated by MonaVie. Nuyten uncorked a big one when he alleged MonaVie was down 30% in a single year. This rumor / truth was incredibly damaging and it was not one MonaVie would have leaked intentionally as part of a weird PR play. I was not involved in a conspirator’s plot with MV, Troy and Nuyten. Nuyten was probably pursued over Coenen because he has an incredibly large footprint in the MLM space. Networkers read his site, not Coenen’s. Nuyten’s site literally gets tens of thousands of hits per month. When he broke the news, he got popped. And recently when Rick Guttman left for ViSalus, I referenced the Nuyten story and called MonaVie out for not apologizing. If you still think it’s all a convoluted PR play, you’re entitled to your opinion.

    I’m not sidestepping my role with TEAM or MonaVie. And to be technically accurate, I was never MonaVie’s attorney. Kevin Grimes was their attorney. Vogel, you’ve reached false assumptions about the eFusjon case, about the motivations for the bill I tried to pass in Tennessee, about my role in exposing MonaVie during the Nuyten controversy, about my intentions on this blog now….If you had some back story from people with the facts, I think you’d see things more accurately.

    Regarding your idea to prohibit MLMs from marketing foods or dietary supplements, I disagree. I think it’s an unreasonable restraint of trade. It’s my opinion and there’s no need to get into it further.

    Regarding your idea for federal legislation, for once, we agree on something. I think it ultimately needs to be done at the federal level; however, given the unlikelihood of tighter regulations at the federal level, I focused the bill on the state level. Passing the bill in Tennessee was within my control and I went for it. The effort failed. In order to pass at a federal level, it would help if there was demonstrable results at the state level. Which then brings me to the main and most important point: what would YOU (and anyone else on this site) specifically want to see happen at the federal level to empower the government to regulate the industry WHILE providing a safe harbor for the clean companies (I’d say “acknowledge the legitimacy of the industry” but it looks like that verbiage makes you angry). If the legislation is over-broad and inadvertently sweeps the good companies, it will never pass. It’s not false bravado, it’s just reality. It’s not enough to say “MLMs are scams and need to be stopped.” Like I’ve said before, drafting a bill that accounts for all of these sensitive issues and drumming up sufficient support is challenging. If there’s enough energy in this community, try it. Draft something and submit it to the world for critique and see what happens, good or bad.

    Vogel, this is our last exchange here. I sincerely wish you the best as you try to sort it out.

  102. November 12, 2011 8:23 pm


    Currently, the law is ambiguous. Right now, pyramid scheme analysis is essentially a “you know it when you see it” standard. It’s not clear enough. The entire purpose of the ebook is stated in the title: “Saving the network marketing industry by DEFINING THE GRAY.” The abuse happens in the gray….companies operating under the guise of legitimate network marketing. I disagree that people should be precluded from joining MLMs until there’s some sort of a vetting process. That would be akin to changing the tires while the car is operating. Instead, we need to arm the government with the ability to provide protection in a cost effective manner. Given the ambiguity in the law, litigation against a pyramid scheme is incredibly expensive. If the standards were clear, it would be much cleaner and cost effective. In the meantime, the marketplace of ideas is the only weapon. I’ve toyed with the idea of creating an online directory where people can rate their experience with a business opportunity. Sort of like a Yelp for Biz Ops. I’m not sure if it would fly…but the idea is intriguing.

  103. November 12, 2011 8:42 pm


    The government is already aware of a problem. So part of your mission has already been accomplished. The point I was trying to make with you was this: when those government officials are speaking with you (or anyone else on this site), it would be more fruitful to have a specific idea of the change you’d like to see. If your goal is to nuke the entire space (it may or not be), the conversation will not go far. As I mentioned with Vogel, the biggest challenge is in creating legislation designed to empower the government to regulate the space WHILE providing a safe harbor for the clean companies.

    Mike: “Why are you even here anyway? You don’t even know the difference between a Direct Sales compensation structure and an MLM compensation structure. Do you think you’re adding value here or are you just here to run interference for your handlers?”

    Whether a pay plan is top heavy or bottom heavy, party plan focussed or recruitment focused, companies will always be given the flexibility as to how they distribute their margin. Asking for legislation dealing with compensation formulas will be construed as burdensome, confusing and a waste of time. Why am I here? Good question. I allowed myself to get sucked in the thread and I’ve enjoyed reading the different perspectives. Also, I was hoping to draw out some specific ideas about what this community would like to see changed with the space…specifically about what sort of changes in the law.

  104. November 12, 2011 8:59 pm


    Quick question: If you want to give the industry a black eye, what’s stopping you? As far as my business, I currently have dozens of clients. I’ve fallen in love with some of my clients. Clients I would love to tell you about; however, I’m fearful they’ll be targeted for obvious reasons. They’ve got amazing products with great stories. I’ve got some clients that are really convinced they can change the world or at least impact their immediate community. I do not see models akin to TEAM/MonaVie on a regular basis….I think it’s a unique situation with tool companies, Amway and MonaVie. I’m a believer in the great things the model can do for average people. As I’ve said before, I’m also a realist that’s seen what happens when the model gets abused, which explains my push to really clarify the good from bad. And as for your list of 10 items to improve the industry, I can at least assume you want more quality controls WITHOUT obliterating the entire space.

    David always wins. I’m a firm believer that the truth always prevails. But for the truth to prevail, it needs to be credible, accurate and loudly proclaimed. If you have a plan, execute it. Read my comments to Vogel and Mike above. There’s more to it, though, than pointing out the problems. There needs to be a specific plan as to how to fix it, which I’m glad to see that you’ve thought about.

    Regarding your list of 10 items, I’d love to read them. On the first one, the problem with “total transparency” is that private companies have never been required to do this. So you’re reshaping long-standing rules, which would be challenging. In the NBA or any other professional sport (I think), the players always want access to the books and they never get them. Can a law mandate this sort of disclosure? Perhaps. In my bill, I did call for companies to disclose attrition rates, which I think is an important statistic that nobody discusses.

    As for the breakage mechanisms, I’ll need to read more to fully understand it. I think companies will always be given the flexibility as to how to distribute margin (structure their pay plans). Getting down into the granular level of prohibiting breakage, while it makes logical sense between networkers, it might not translate well into a good, easy to understand bill.

    I hope that helps. If you want to have a conversation with me, contact me on my blog or Facebook (the invitation goes to everyone else out there). I’m out.

  105. November 12, 2011 9:02 pm

    Everyone – Let’s keep the name calling out of the comments. While we’re at it, let’s steer the conversation back towards analyzing and critiquing LIFE’s P&P documents. If there’s interest, we can have a separate post on how legislation and regulations can fix the MLM industry.

  106. brent hansen permalink
    November 13, 2011 5:56 am


    I found it interesting when you wrote, ” I’ve toyed with the idea of creating an online directory where people can rate their experience with a business opportunity. Sort of like a Yelp for Biz Ops. I’m not sure if it would fly…but the idea is intriguing.”

    This is exactly the thought and idea that several of us are contemplating at the moment. I think it is a brilliant idea. The site could be MLM A-Z, with a complete analysis of each company, leadership, true compensation numbers, as well as any controversial articles or dialogue that may have taken place within the company.

    This could become an incredible resource for would be distributors who seek to know the truth about their opportunity. An interesting thing has happened from this dialogue here, because 2 distributors that are involved in 2 different companies have contacted me through email and asked for my honest opinion of what they are engaged in.

    You see, I am not against the idea of networking, it is just that 99% of the companies out there are raping the people all in the name of providing an ‘opportunity’. There are companies that I believe are doing it right, besides the obvious ones spoken of here on this thread, there is a great company called Nuriche. Michael has spoken with the CEO on the phone, I encouraged Troy to do an interview with the CEO, and both Michael and Troy have put their stamp of approval on the company.

    David Parker (I believe) offers a true 40/60 split with the field, and a total payout of compensation dollars each month. there is no breakage in the compensation plan, and very reasonably priced products. They are totally transparent with compensation dollars, not to mention the fact that he pays himself $1 per year, and the master distributor position is a charitable organization. Companies like this are few and far between and on an online directory, companies like this could, and should be spotlighted as a great and real opportunity.

    To me, that is a twist Troy could take with his ‘MLM Advocate’ site. Unfortunately, he requires a $10 signup just to get in his site, and the majority of folks ‘looking’ at MLM will never pay that. If Troy wants to become a real ‘advocate’ for the industry, he needs to allow a free peek, and then put some real, hard-hitting content on the site, and stop playing both sides of the fence, hoping to gain a buck by not pissing the wrong people off. If a company is good, state why. If it is bad, do the same.

  107. November 13, 2011 6:11 am

    Brent – I agree. Troy needs to get rid of the $10 fee. If he is trying to be an advocate for the industry he needs to make the information easily available to the public.

    Kevin and Brent – Regarding the MLM directory where users can rate their experience in a particular MLM, I think the toughest issue you will face is making sure the numbers are accurate and not gamed by the scam artists out there like Forbes magazine pyramid kingpin, Orrin Woodward. Orrin would simply put out a blog post or email to every ACTIVE distributor and ask them to submit a positive review. While the quake of destruction he has left over the years is surely in the hundreds of thousands (former distributors who have quit over the past 18 years or so due to the horrible attrition rate), I feel that the former distributors that financially got ruined by team would not know to go to this site as they have moved on with their lives. However, Orrin’s current little group of 10,000 active distributors or whatever that number may be would show up to your site in droves obeying Orrin’s command by submitting a positive review. To me this would be the toughest challenge to overcome. Any ideas on how to protect the integrity of this directory?

  108. November 13, 2011 6:18 am


    Thanks for your reply.

    I disagree with you that “people should be precluded from joining MLMs until there’s some sort of a vetting process. That would be akin to changing the tires while the car is operating. ”

    The MLM-car should not drive at all; it makes to many victims, and until it is safe it should not be allowed on the highway. A thorough inspection is needed which will lead to the conclusion that most of the cars are just not more worth than car scrap, and would never be allowed on the highway anymore.

    I just visited your website, and I was amazed I only found positive remarks about the MLM industry. At first sight everything seems perfect in MLM-land. However, you are in contact with people who are seen here as dubious and I have to agree with them. You don’t you use your authority to tell on your website that there are also “bad” MLM companies out there. It would give you certain more credibility, and would back up your posts here.

    I am still confused about your intentions. I can only conclude that your main goal is to protect the “good” MLM companies with your bill, and that you do not care about or give a S&*t about the people who are getting abused by all the other MLM-scams. It would just be an effect of your bill.


    Don’t let you guard down yet! I strongly believe that someone like Kevin “can’t touch pitch and have clean hands.”

  109. outsider permalink
    November 13, 2011 6:51 am

    Kevin Thompson said he has “Clients I would love to tell you about; however, I’m fearful they’ll be targeted for obvious reasons.”

    I don’t mean to say that I’m dying to hear about your other clients (which, I’m not, personally), but what did you mean? Who might target them if you said nice things about them more specifically here? Your other clients?

    Those of us who don’t have much contact with MLM scammers aren’t so familiar with their weird “targeting” thing. I know that those of you here who’ve been the target of the cultish creeps before know what he meant; you guys could fill me in, too.

  110. brent hansen permalink
    November 13, 2011 7:19 am

    Accessing back offices and engaging both active and inactive distributors in polls and questionaires is the most effective way I can think of. With a real focus on proving the DSA’s claims false.

    The DSA claims that 70% simply get involved to get a better price on the product, and I believe this is total B.S. Two sample questions are 1. Why did you initially get involved? And question number 2. Are you still purchasing the product, and if not, why not?

    Once this 70% claim is debunked, the rest of the story falls apart, because it proves the knowledge that all of us have that most companies are merely internal consumption models.

  111. November 13, 2011 7:22 am


    Thanks for keeping it civil.


    I do publish about the problems in the space. Please spend more time on the site: Read about my USA Today response, the article about the SBA loans, the articles about the pyramid scheme bill, the article about “ending the hype,” articles about training fees, etc.


    When I said “targeted,” I meant that I do not want my clients critiqued and criticized on this thread. Their identity does not add any value to the conversation we’re having right now.


    In my opinion, eliminating breakage, using a position for charity and eliminating salaries for executives does NOT render it automatically legitimate. What if such a business was selling $1000 lemonade? With the directory idea, while it might be good to allow people to share controversial articles, it would seem to open up an opportunity for people to post good articles as well. In this case, Will would be right (it would be easy to game).

    I think you raise an interesting point on the 70% stat (that 70% of the people join to enjoy product discounts). As more and more companies are launching with “preferred customer” programs where customers CAN buy the products at wholesale without joining the business, this area of “plausible deniability” (the 70% stat) is becoming obsolete.

  112. outsider permalink
    November 13, 2011 7:51 am

    Kevin Thompson:”When I said “targeted,” I meant that I do not want my clients critiqued and criticized on this thread.’

    Nobody “targets” anybody on this site – I see people telling their real stories of devastation here. Lots of these guys have BEEN “targeted,” though, so that’s an extremely loaded word to choose.

    “Their identity does not add any value to the conversation we’re having right now.”
    Yeah, agreed. But real companies that aren’t hurting anybody would have nothing to fear. These guys aren’t the scammers; they are the scammed.

  113. Mike Collins permalink
    November 13, 2011 8:33 am

    Kevin: “Whether a pay plan is top heavy or bottom heavy, party plan focused or recruitment focused”

    So you do know the difference. However, I suppose that you will continue to insist that MLM and Direct Sales models are one in the same because Direct Sales pays on “multiple” levels right? You guys do this on purpose, when in private conversations you admit that they are, in fact, very different. This is a deliberate blurring of the line in an attempt to remove the stigma associated with MLM and you guys who do this turn my stomach because you know the truth and you deliberately obscure it.

    What is my plan to fix it? Educate the masses (no doubt a HUGE order) Nevertheless, if there was a resource that spelled it all out available to people who took the time to do their homework we might see some changes. I know the “industry leaders” will scoff at this idea but we will just have to see won’t we?

    As far as the government goes, what would be great is if the regulatory agencies realized there is some money to be had here and started having some congressional hearings on the industry in which I would gladly participate. Pie in the sky? Perhaps. But if it did happen I would have plenty to tell them, just like you Kevin. But you wouldn’t because you get to hide behind attorney client privilege.

  114. Mike Collins permalink
    November 13, 2011 8:40 am

    Kevin: “In my opinion, eliminating breakage, using a position for charity and eliminating salaries for executives does NOT render it automatically legitimate. What if such a business was selling $1000 lemonade?”

    Again, I need to question if you have problems with comprehension.

    Brent said: “David Parker (I believe) offers a true 40/60 split with the field, and a total payout of compensation dollars each month. There is no breakage in the compensation plan, and very reasonably priced products. They are totally transparent with compensation dollars, not to mention the fact that he pays himself $1 per year, and the master distributor position is a charitable organization.”

    You read this and feel compelled to ask this ridiculous question: “What if such a business was selling $1000 lemonade?”

    Please make sure you understand what you are reading before you comment. If you don’t, ask for clarification.

  115. November 13, 2011 9:01 am

    Don’t people say that “first impressions counts.” I believe statistics show that the majority of the surfers on the web will only read the home page. With your home page you imply that everything is ok with the MLM business. I think the opposite is going on; the majority of the MLM companies are corrupt.

    Prospects looking for information, and who do not know nothing about the MLM-business, will believe the indoctrinating lies they are told, because this attorney on the website says everything is ok, and that it is an opportunity. He is even helping people setting up their MLM-companies! This way, you are maybe unwillingly, feeding the MLM-sharks.

    Again, if you would place some information about your effort to eliminate MLM-crooks on the homepage, your intentions would become more clear. Or will some of your clients not like that?

    I agree with outsider that the good MLM companies have nothing to fear. If these companies want to keep their silence, aren’t they themselves not to blame for critics like myself to see the MLM-industry rather gone.

  116. brent hansen permalink
    November 13, 2011 9:35 am


    You are right on. If an online directory were to be created, it would have to have a ‘good’ as well as a ‘bad’ section, and it would have to be very visible and accessible to each person who comes onto the site. A very specific formula would have to be pre-determined in order to categorize each specific company, product and plan. What do you all think some of the criteria should be that would help determine the legitimacy of such plans? I have a lengthy list of my own, what do you all think? Specifically Kevin, what do you think?

  117. Speak Your Truth permalink
    November 13, 2011 11:21 am

    I appreciate all the conversations and am glad to see that there is a diverse group of people, from those who are looking from the outside in, to those who have built business and know from the inside; know the truths behind all the fluff, hype, and downright deceiving, and those who call it as is; expressing their thoughts and ideas.

    Kevin, I understand your statement on your clients also, but do have a sincere question. When you pick a client or they pick you, do you analyize their business model and comp. plan to see if they are viable before you support them? And if so,and they are not viable, what is your approach?

    Also, Why isn’t the MLM industry held to the same laws, standards and regulations as any other business in American? Somehow they seem to get protected from what makes them accountable. With all other business there is protection for both company, clients, sales forces and their territories, employee’s etc.. that the MLM industry has never been held to and in my opinion, is the very reason the abuses occur and would solve the majority of problems if they were held to the same laws. Wouldn’t this be cost effective, when having to rid the bad? Why should they be any different, they claim they are a ‘business opportunity?’

    I also think to educate the public..’prospects’ with the facts, is a great way of helping people make informed decisions without all the extreme hype and propaganda, and agree with Brent it is a great idea, and will help in a big way. Although, we know they will try and google bomb that site down to the second page. That is why we speak out to stop others from we know is the truth and gets covered up, with all their might. Although, this will not solve the root problems.

    I feel the biggest issues always come back to the lies, deception, and created illusions, gaming the system, lack of trasparency of the ‘specal deals’, lack of responsiblity on those who run the companies, etc. that run rampant in this industry to try and coerce people to get in the ‘best business opprotunity’ in the world and we there is no mystery to what happens when they get away with anything and doing anything.

    Honesty and transparency Will always be the best policy. I agree with those on here, that those who are the ‘good’ ones, have nothing to worry about, that will always take care of itself…and no matter what regulations are put in place( to stop the bad ones) the good if they are good, won’t have nothing to worry about and follow the laws if they are legit. Isn’t that why we need laws; for the lawless? Ha. 🙂

  118. Speak Your Truth permalink
    November 13, 2011 11:26 am

    I forgot to mention the most important the unviablity, attrition rates and unsustainablity, that is never given up front nor will it ever be talked about.

  119. Speak Your Truth permalink
    November 13, 2011 11:29 am

    Oops and how can they get away with drawing up these P&P’s; that to me are unfair business practices in and of themselves, but are binding?

  120. Speak Your Truth permalink
    November 13, 2011 11:37 am

    Amen Webelieved..Great points…it all boils down to transparency. By then also not being held accountable for all their promises (lies) and being able to write up a totaltarion P&P and contracts that give them the free for all and the Team works this to the bone, knowingly taking the risks that they might never be caught. The cult indoctrination is the MOST damaging and agree 100%!

  121. Speak Your Truth permalink
    November 13, 2011 11:45 am

    With them being able to get away with these P&P’s it is the ticket for them to protect THEMSELVES from anyone bringing justice on them, so therefore, gives them the right to do whatever they want, cover up the truth, steal, cheat and lie. Who works for or with a company that flat out tells you they will steal your efforts, gags and binds you for the rest of your life?

  122. brent hansen permalink
    November 13, 2011 1:29 pm


    Although I believe 100% in your statements regarding cult indoctrination, I do believe however that full transparency would take care of that on its own. Which came first, the chicken or the egg?

    Lets rewind to the 60s and remember Rich Devos himself as he warned about the evils and wrong doings of letting the tool companies enter the industry. Cult indoctrination is necessary to keep people involved, because the compensation structures and products cannot usually stand on their own merits.

    With mathematical failure rates upwards of 90% people have to be deceived and indoctrinated to keep them involved. Many of us have been victims of this indoctrination ourselves, so I know you all understand where I am coming from on this topic.

    If you all want a good chuckle, and to see one of the worst examples in history Google this new up and comer called “Beyond Organic”. They are actually utilizing God and evangelism to herd people into one of the most horribly written compensation plans I have ever witnessed. Jordan Rubin should be ashamed of what he has created, and the B.S. mission he is undertaking. Amazingly enough, Michael spent much time on the phone with their V.P. informing him of the failure rates that they have built into their plan, all to have a deaf ear turned towards his suggestions.

    These clowns at the top of most of these pyramids know and understand the massive redistribution mechanisms they are creating, and seem to care less. Why else would a friend of mine who started a nutritional supplement MLM be offered 15 million dollars for his company when it was in a pre-launch phase? Similarly myself and another friend were offered 10 million dollars for a compensation plan we created, when the ink hadn’t even hardly dried on the paper.

    These guys know that MLM = MASSIVE BREAKAGE = MASSIVE WEALTH. They talk of treating their distributors as equal partners but hide all of the facts, both mathematical and financial which would be disclosed in any true partnership. Distributors are simply customers who have been indoctrinated and brainwashed into believing that they own a piece of something, when in all reality, they do not own jack!

    Total transparency legislation would drive people away from the unscrupulous business models, and the tool companies would dry up and then go away. Look at MV for example, you have to bet that BDU, R3G, Legacy, Team, and the many others were all seeing massive declines in propaganda sales once people became aware that the Monavie compensation plan sucked.

    Some believe that tool companies destroy the companies real plan, but I believe the plan was not good to begin with, so the tool companies perpetuate the lie to keep people involved and sell their crap. They cannot make money from the primary, so a secondary is created. So the real problem (compensation plans), is magnified by the lying indoctrination that goes on in the ‘systems’. Cut the tree down, the branches die.

  123. November 13, 2011 2:29 pm

    Here’s what I would like to see:

    Recruits should have 24-48 hours to read the contract before signing the paperwork. Distributors should respect that and not pressure them into coming into the business.

    Zero-tolerance on health claims.

    Yearly income disclosure statements. Prospects should be given the straight dope on income claims, and be able to ask the recruiter’s income and expense accounts pertaining to the business. Also, the costs should be laid out. (tools, ebc, functions, average cost a distributor pays) All this so the prospect can make an informed decision.

    Allow the prospect to do his own research. Don’t discourage the prospect to do his own research, he has the right to do that.

    Measures to be put into place so that any mind-control tactic is not being employed in a meeting or function. That includes guilt-trip to keep a recruit in, lovebombing, and any attempt to control the distributors’ private/family life.

    Keep the use of God and/or religion away from all aspects of the business. They should respect the religions and lifestyles of the recruits/distributors.

    Anyway, those are my major issues I have with TEAM. And my opinions, too!

  124. Speak Your Truth permalink
    November 13, 2011 3:05 pm


    Amen Brother! Full Disclosure & Transparency.. we all know this is what is going to take and the laws that hold them to it.. make them .. Walk their Talk…or they disappear naturally that or possibly go to jail. 🙂

  125. Vogel permalink
    November 13, 2011 4:13 pm

    Kev: “eFusjon lawsuit…there was no conspiracy there.”

    Maybe so and maybe not; we’ll likely never know. You didn’t help your case by conveniently developing amnesia about the dates and claiming that you didn’t “think” Monavie had a competing product (eMV) at the time the eFusjon suit was filed – they clearly did, and for the sake of your credibility, you should be more careful in accurately representing the pertinent details. The particular detail that you misrepresented was a material fact. One more conniving maneuver like that and I’ll have to cite you for contempt.

    Kev: “The Nuyten C&D letter from MonaVie was real and the response was real. It was not premeditated by MonaVie. Nuyten uncorked a big one when he alleged MonaVie was down 30% in a single year. This rumor / truth was incredibly damaging and it was not one MonaVie would have leaked intentionally as part of a weird PR play. I was not involved in a conspirator’s plot with MV, Troy and Nuyten. Nuyten was probably pursued over Coenen because he has an incredibly large footprint in the MLM space.”

    Ted stated that it was down “20% to 25%”, not 30%. That’s slipup number two for you. I warned you — you are now in contempt.

    I never debated whether the CDO was real – it seems obvious that they sent it to Nuyten; as for the response, “real” or not, it was idiotic.

    But how can you know for sure whether the response was “real” (whatever that means) and whether or not the CDO was “premeditated” (whatever that means too – odd choice of words). Either you are opining, in which case you should make that 100% clear (which you didn’t do), or you have inside information that you’re withholding. Secondly, since Monavie is/was one of your clients, I have no reason to trust any assertion you make that cannot be backed up factually.

    Ted Nuyten didn’t generate the data that was allegedly “leaked”; he merely reposted it from another source (Coenen) and was well within his First Amendment rights in doing so. Coenen published her article with the sales data on May 3, 2010, Nuyten re-published it roughly 3 months later on August 8, 2010. Monavie’s lawyers sent Nuyten the CDO 2 days later, alleging defamation and tortuous interference. There are several key facts to consider here. First and most importantly, the CDO was frivolous. The accusations were untenable and Nuyten simply ignored the order and the article was never taken down – and what did Monavie and its lawyers then do in response? Absolutely nothing! The CDO was at best a toothless charade and accomplished nothing other than to give the whole “leak” story exponentially greater traction. Monavie and its lawyers aren’t blind enough to not realize that the CDO would have this effect; ergo, it’s reasonable to conclude that they purposely wanted to give the story legs.

    Secondly, Monavie did absolutely nothing to protect itself from this perceived slight when Coenen originally published the data – the impact of the defamation and interference alleged by Monavie against Nuyten would be no less applicable to what Coenen had published, and yet the company took no action whatsoever against Coenen (a vocal MLM critic) at any time. That makes no sense at all. But suddenly, 3 months after Coenen’s article appeared, they felt the need to go after Nuyten (an ardent MLM advocate) within a mere TWO DAYS of his republishing Coenen’s data? And conspicuously, it wasn’t until then that you and Drooly jumped onto your keyboards and revved up the spin machine. The one thing conspicuously missing from your and Drooly’s followup to the story was any substantial skepticism about the accuracy of the data – the most fundamental question of all. Drooly in fact immediately went on a very odd rant arguing about how the anonymous source of the data had committed a criminal act by breaching a confidentiality agreement (when clearly it would be a civil matter, not criminal, and no source for the alleged leak was ever identified). The whole thing stinks of BS and you and Drooly were up to your elbows in it.

    Your argument that Monavie exclusively went after Nuyten because of the size of his “footprint” in MLM is ludicrous. How would sending a toothless CDO, which they surely knew would be ignored (and it was), help Monavie to protect its corporate image? It wouldn’t even in theory, and it didn’t in fact. It just gave the story far more traction. So either the CDO was an incredibly stupid miscalculation on Monavie’s part (usually a good bet when judging Monavie’s conduct, but not applicable in this case IMO) or there is more going on here than the central players are admitting to.

    Drooly’s followup “interview” with Larceny was nothing more than PR fluff. Larceny was allegedly given Drooly’s forum to confirm or deny the veracity of the allegedly leaked sales data, and he did neither. If he did this in the political or corporate world (I mean “real” corporate, not MLM-faux-corporate), it would be suicidal. When addressing a scandal in such a situation, one either: (a) confirms the allegations and offers a good explanation and/or a heartfelt apology; (b) denies the allegations strenuously; or (c) stays home out of the fray, avoids confronting the issue at all, and shuts the hell up, hoping the issue will fade away on its own. Larceny did none of these things, and I can only assume that it was for a carefully calculated reason.

    Larceny didn’t stay silent. He made a point of getting together with Drooly to answer to this issue specifically and he purposely and conspicuously said nothing. He knew what the net effect was going to be – Larceny’s silence on the issue would be interpreted by everyone as a tacit admission that the data were accurate, while leaving him with wiggle room to deny the data’s veracity at a later date if he needed to. Just in case anyone failed to make the obvious inference that Larceny obviously wanted people to make, along came you and Drooly to explicitly state the “desired” conclusions: i.e., the data were leaked by a Monavie insider and are real – yes, Monavie’s revenue may have slipped a bit in a down economy, but they’re still doing over a half bil in sales per year and Dallin is such a great guy that he’ll surely find a way to turn it around. BS!!! I ain’t buying any of it.

    Moving back to the discussion of cleaning up MLM, I have several suggestions to offer. First, instantly outlaw binary plans altogether, since they make no sense, are deceptive and confusing, and seem like nothing more than a hidden trap to gyp distributors out of commissions.

    Second, outlaw the practice of having “preferred customers” sign “distributor” agreements. This practice is what allows MLM to muddy the waters regarding the success and failure rates of their so-called “distributors”, and it has to stop because there is no reason for it other than to deceive consumers and regulators. Put the two groups on entirely different tracks: someone that wants to get a discount for committing to preordering or buying the product in bulk should be considered a preferred customer only and not asked to sign a distributor contract. Only those who intend to engage in the business side should be asked to sign a distributor contract.

    Third, distributors should be prohibited from using sales inventory for personal use, since this practice also muddies the waters between retail and non-retail sales. If a distributor wants to order additional product at a discount for personal use, it should be indicated as such on the purchase order so that it can be tracked — and taxed accordingly. Also qualifications, awards, and bonuses should only be offered for confirmed sales to retail end-users, and not for purchases of products that distributors make for themselves. This would help to eliminate inventory loading.

    Fourth, a mandatory buyback guarantee for unsold inventory within a reasonable timeframe (e.g., no less than 90-120 days) should be mandatory. This too would help to eliminate inventory loading.

    Fifth, ALL sales tools (including meetings) should be provided for free. Promotion and sales of any other tools should be prohibited. This would completely eliminate the tools scam element from the equation. In doing so, most scammy MLMs would immediately cease to exist, since the tools and motivational training business is their true raison d’etre.

    Lastly, the DSA should not serve as a safe harbor for horrific scam MLMs like LifeVantage. As long as the DSA serves to legitimize such companies, they should be viewed as a one of the great evils of the industry. This reality precludes them from being a partner in the public interest when it comes to drafting legislation. They should purge their ranks — which would leave them with almost no members and no money for lobbying; so they obviously won’t. The only alternative is public pushback to expose the DSA for what it really is so as to root out their influence in the legislative process.

    I want to reiterate that I do not see any possibility of you playing a neutral role in this effort. Your interests and allegiances are very clear and you should be man enough to admit it. Without MLM, your job ceases to exist. Your defense of MLM seems to be little more than an attempt to cover your own ass and the asses of the people who pay you. There is a groundswell of righteous indignation over what MLMs have been getting away with for years. Recognizing that this could affect all of your bottom lines, you now seem to bargaining to find a way for MLM to survive the onslaught. What you should be doing instead is concentrate on hammering the worst offenders – like Monavie (which helped to pay your bills) — not tipping your hat to (and hiding behind) the one or two semi-legit MLMs like Avon (who you do not represent).

    So far, I’ve heard very little substantial (I repeat, SUBSTANTIAL) criticism from you about Monavie. If your aloofness is because of your obligations to Monavie as a client, then you are too biased to be trusted, and if it’s for any other reason, then you are to indifferent to be trusted. In other words, I don’t even want to hear you mention protecting Avon’s image until you’ve make a concentrated effort to protect consumers from companies like Monavie and LifeVantage

    A final note — if you want to be taken seriously by anyone who matters, cut Drooly adrift. You’ll look like a fool as long as you have that clown and MLM propagandist-for-hire as your right hand man. A serious capable professional wouldn’t need to be reminded of this fact.

  126. November 13, 2011 4:50 pm

    Vogel, melaleuca (the mlm store i get my health stuff from) don’t allow us to distribute. We purchase our products at a discount but those of us trying to make a business simply get the people to sign up at the website to get thier discounts. I don’t know exactly how because I’m not building any mela business, but I like the rule that those who do decide to make it their business have nothing to do with actual direct sales. I think that cuts out a lot of complicity. Maybe Monavie should just get their distributors to simply sign up at the MV website and order the product directly. That saves the sponsor distributors the hassle of having all kinds of stock, and also prevent volume loading. It just seems like a good idea, in my opinion.

    Once again, and I repeat, I’m NOT doing Mela as a business, so I’m not advertising. Just wanted to be clear.

  127. Vogel permalink
    November 13, 2011 5:05 pm

    I think that’s a perfectly reasonable suggestion. 🙂

  128. brent hansen permalink
    November 13, 2011 5:36 pm

    But Vogel, waaaah…. if preferred customers weren’t allowed to enroll as distributors, the charade would implode. The world would be able to see a definitive line drawn between those seeking to earn and those looking for a better price on the product. Then there would be no more redefining distributors as customers, what the heck? hahaha…

    Earlier in this thread Kevin wrote something to the effect that many of these companies believe they can help/change the world with their fantastic products. This is a laughable statement, if their products were so damn good, wouldn’t they be more likely to bring them to market through conventional methods?

    Im not trying to toot Nuriche’s horn, but their CEO actually encourages their distributors to set up retail accounts through convenience stores, gas stations, etc. etc. Things change when you have marketable products that have end users outside of the pyramid. When was the last time you saw a bottle of Monavie for sell at Maverick or Seven Eleven? SA8 or DoubleX? Anyone, anyone?

  129. November 13, 2011 5:41 pm

    webelieved – That is exactly why Orrin wanted to leave Quixtar. Not only were they changing their name to Amway, but they were going to reform the tool businesses and his little team tool income pyramid scam would be shut down.

  130. brent hansen permalink
    November 13, 2011 5:59 pm

    webelieved give me a day to look at their PDF, I honestly haven’t checked it out. I simply refer to them because of the integrity of their corporate structure, no breakage, and a total payout of compensation dollars. In no way is my reference an advertisment, I will look at it, and let you know.

  131. brent hansen permalink
    November 13, 2011 6:17 pm

    By the way, the only way you can analyze a compensation plan is by creating a hypothetical situation based on either an assumption of total internal consumption, or a chosen ‘customer’ volume allowance. Its easy to evaluate companies where you have access to data and less than 1% of volume is done by customers. But with companies like Mary Kay, Avon and possibly Nuriche, it is hard to perform an analysis because they are building their company correctly, and letting customer sales drive the model. And, we are talking about real customers, not distributors who are simply called customers to inflate the average distributor earning figures.

    Monavie is a perfect example of a company who has redefined their distributor force. Here is what you have to do to become an actual Monavie distributor. Signing up and buying product is not enough, now they have certain parameters if you want to be included as part of their Income Disclosure Statement.

    ” A “Distributor” is defined as any person who: (1) executed a MonaVie Distributor Application and Agreement; (2) has sponsored at least one person; (3) has received at least one non-retail bonus check; and (4) has been active in any of the eight
    weeks preceding the bonus period (“active” is defined in the MonaVie Compensation Plan as having generated 100 PV (Personal Volume) in a four-week period). Note that this excludes retail customers, preferred customers, and retailers (those who have received a retail bonus only).
    An individual who has executed a MonaVie Independent Distributor Application and Agreement, but has not fulfilled the four criteria enumerated above is not a Distributor. That person is simply a wholesale customer. If, and only when, all four criteria are satisfied does that person become a distributor.” Monavie Income Disclosure Statement

    Click to access ids.pdf

    So if you haven’t met all 4 criteria, and your income is not even counted or averaged into any income earned by ‘real’ MV distributors.

    Interesting here how 72% of everyone they call distributors are earning an average of $24 a week, and 19% of everyone they call distributors are Stars earning an average of $38 per week. That represents 91% of their entire distributor force and they are all losing money.

    If they averaged in the earnings of the other people who they didn’t count as distributors it would be much, much worse. Michael posted an analysis on Facebook and on Ted Nuyten’s site that shows less than .05% are earning enough to pay for a one-case autoship.

    The Monavie IDS is the best piece of anti-mlm literature to have ever been produced. Although the 2010 IDS has been doctored, the older ones tell the real story, and should be evidence enough to scare the hell out of anyone thinking of engaging.

  132. Mike Collins permalink
    November 13, 2011 6:26 pm

    We believed: For nuriche it’s 1in 5 .Their fast start bonuses are recurring, month after month. They have bonus pools that pay the same amount to everyone in the pool based on their rank. The pools are accumulative for every rank a distributor qualifies for. For Amway it’s 1in 25

  133. Speak Your Truth permalink
    November 13, 2011 6:34 pm

    Sure Brent…hmm huh…you been waiting for this moment all along to ‘promote’ another scam…LOL…I am totally kidding. Great suggestions Vogel.

    We all know you remove the ‘generic’ or outside tool companies, that are supposed to be ‘training’ you on how to build what, now? But have always been the pyramid on top of the pyramid according to Forbes, and I agree?..As with the Team training, that is right they call it ‘community building,’ which really means endless recruiting and self-consuption training, how to break rules and laws to keep the cash flow coming any cost.

    I agree it should be FREE training by the company, since you pay the companies to work for them and bring billions to them in most cases anyway, the least they could do is train you, like any other legit company does. This would be one way you could herd the cats. That would eliminate a big problem and a whole slew that follow.

    The suggestions are great and I would love to see all of them implemented. Just have to fight that status quo and not settle for. Expect to win, and make the changes and force them, and never, never, never…give up! 🙂

  134. FILED permalink
    November 13, 2011 7:07 pm

    Wow! Thank you for spelling “Life” out for me. My neighbor gave me the book and cd to read because he wanted me to “Get My Time Back” and not have to worry about money anymore. It was too good to be true and i knew it. He is brainwashed to thinking he is going to retire in 2 years because of this crap. Hopefully i can show him through this blog before its to late for him.

  135. Mike Collins permalink
    November 13, 2011 7:37 pm

    I guess I could have been a little more clear on what the ratio means instead of assuming everyone would know what I was talking about. In Nuriche you would need to have 5 people below you on the same amount of product as you in order to make enough to “pay” for your autoship. Hence the 1 in 6 ratio for breaking even (I mistakenly wrote 1 in 5)

    Nuriche has one Top position (this is the non-profit organization. It receives 2% of the company gross that is used for philanthropy. This is also transparent) so they don’t create more breakage by adding additional legs. David Parker is proud that they have complete transparency. He spent about an hour on the phone with me one day and very patiently answered any question I asked him. I have not looked at their books but I did analyze their compensation plan. I am not a Nuriche distributor nor do I intend to be.

    Amway’s break even point is 1 in 26. This ratio considers minimum product use only. It does not take into consideration any training tools or functions, promotional materials/product or any other business expense for that matter.

  136. Speak Your Truth permalink
    November 13, 2011 7:45 pm

    Thanks Mike for remembering some at least I, need it in laymans terms. This is why they get away with snowing people for so long, people just don’t understand the comp plans. Thanks for your understanding.

  137. November 13, 2011 8:35 pm

    @FILED – Did you read other pro-LIFE sites before finding this site? LIFE proponents have been trying to game Google by flooding the web with similar articles. Glad that you’ve seen through their plot.

  138. No Team For Me permalink
    November 13, 2011 8:58 pm

    Filed – so glad you found the truth. I would encourage you to print off some of this information and bring it with you to one of their Tueday night meetings. Pass it around. You could really help a lot of people from being scammed!

  139. brent hansen permalink
    November 13, 2011 9:40 pm

    Thanks Mike, saved me some brain burning calculations. hahaha…. 1 in 6? Well, that is 500% better than MV and 400% better than Life. I guess Orrin isn’t creating the opportunity for the ‘little guy’ after all now, is he? I know Xooma Worldwide is 1 of 4, RevvNrg is 1 of 10, and I can name a dozen others that have at least double or more the success ratio than Life. Benchmarking isn’t apparently what it used to be now is it? And that is from two former systems engineers? About the only thing they are qualified to engineer is a train wreck. hahaha…

  140. brent hansen permalink
    November 14, 2011 4:53 am

    Is Samuel Clemens still alive? I had an interesting email from Mark Twain this morning. Try giving me your real name, and contact info. Mark, and then I will be glad to contact you and tell you about the $1000 challenge. Until then just keep reading, maybe you will learn something. And by the way Mark, the things I am saying are way more ‘positive’ than anything you are being taught from the ‘system’, at least here, your hearing the truth. By the way, why don’t you shed further light on your so called “leadership community”, what and who are you leading, and where are you leading them to? Please Mark, educate us all.


    I must admit that you have something against people being associated with the LIFE leadership system. The fact of the matter is that, you along with the others that are following on that same blog (amthrax), had your own reasons to quit and that’s just too bad.

    I won’t claim that I have all the history, or background or team and quite honestly I don’t care. I have made some great friends through this association and the people I am associated with I know before they were in team and they are all of high integrity. In addition, many of these friends and business partners were already successful at what they did so don’t come to insult people who never access the blog – that’s just being a coward.

    If all of you guys have something to say then come out and confront those that you need to confront. Where’s the character in using a blog to criticize and insult people that can’t defend themselves.

    What you guys are doing does not build any credibility? So team did this, the leaders of team did that… take on some responsibility and be a big boy. Move on and stop taking about other people. If you want to talk about “who is screwing who nowadays” – all you need to do is read the daily headlines and look at your own government. You’ll have plenty to keep busy there.

    I read about what you posted to someone called Nathali and that’s low – at least for someone who tries to come out as a know it all. It’s no wonder that you did not make it in team or if you did I am glad you are not part of it, people with lack of character is the last thing that a leadership community needs.

    By the way, I am not interested in your so called cash challenge. What are you trying to prove?

    I really hope that you are no longer associated with any kind of leadership or that you no longer have a community, but if you do I truly feel sad for those who might be following you for anything. Stop wasting precious bytes in the data world, unless you have something positive to say about someone else.”

  141. Mike Collins permalink
    November 14, 2011 6:02 am

    1. @ Mark Twain: mark said: “Brent,
    “I must admit that you have something against people being associated with the LIFE leadership system.”

    Not true. He has something against a business model that takes advantage of people like you.

    “I won’t claim that I have all the history, or background or team and quite honestly I don’t care”

    You need to care. You have a LOT riding on this….more than you probably realize.

    “I have made some great friends through this association and the people I am associated with I know before they were in team and they are all of high integrity”

    That’s great. You can also make great friends with high integrity at church, the Lions, AA, and a myriad of other organizations that will not require you to fleece your family and friends to have their friendship.

    If all of you guys have something to say then come out and confront those that you need to confront”

    That’s exactly what this blog is doing.

    “Where’s the character in using a blog to criticize and insult people that can’t defend themselves.”

    Orrin and his cronies are welcome to come here (they do every day) and dispute anything being said here. They are also welcome to email Amthrax in private or Brent, or me and anyone else that cares to publish their email.

    “What you guys are doing does not build any credibility? So team did this, the leaders of team did that… take on some responsibility and be a big boy. Move on and stop taking about other people”

    We ain’t movin on so get used to it. We’re trying to protect people from the wolves in society that prey on people who haven’t been told the truth.

    “If you want to talk about “who is screwing who nowadays” – all you need to do is read the daily headlines and look at your own government. You’ll have plenty to keep busy there.”
    And so are the cocaine cartels in Columbia….but that’s just as irrelevant as what the government is doing for the sake of this argument isn’t it?

    “By the way, I am not interested in your so called cash challenge. What are you trying to prove?”

    That given the compensation plan of any business we can predict, with a margin of error of plus or minus ½% how many people in an organization are making enough to cover the cost of their autoship OR how many people are making $100.00 a month on a recurring basis from the compensation plan…..BUT……you will actually need to have an organization for us to analyze. Are you up for it…..?

    “Stop wasting precious bytes in the data world, unless you have something positive to say about someone else.”

    I would venture to say that this is probably one of THE MOST positive things ANY of us has ever done.

    ONE LAST THING “Mark” The question you need to ask yourself after reading ALL of LIEf’s P&P’s is: are any of the things said on this blog true. Then answer the question…

  142. Speak Your Truth permalink
    November 14, 2011 8:02 am

    Bahahahaha! That is hilarious! This is such a thankless job. The TRUTH is the TRUTH whether it seems positive or negative, its time people face it…it is still the Truth! Thanks Brent, Mike, & Webelieved for all your support and some good healthy belly laughs!

    It truly never ceases to amaze me the righteous bs and more amazing is the distraction and diversion techniques….. Denial!

    Mark Twain says; “The fact of the matter is that, you along with the others that are following on that same blog (amthrax), had your own reasons to quit and that’s just too bad.”

    We had our own reasons to quit, it is called Corruption…No sheet Sherlock..Duh!

    Mark Twain says; “I won’t claim that I have all the history, or background or team and quite honestly I don’t care. I have made some great friends through this association and the people I am associated with I know before they were in team and they are all of high integrity. In addition, many of these friends and business partners were already successful at what they did so don’t come to insult people who never access the blog – that’s just being a coward.”

    The history is something you ought to ‘care about’ and learn.. those who don’t will find eventually find themselves on Amthrax with the same fate we all had, it is inevitable..There is a difference between ‘true’ friends and those who pretend to be your friends; the LIEfer friends will be there all the way up til you disagree and quit paying them to be your friends…that my friend is NOT true friends, you don’t need to be so desperate. All your association of friends on LIEf are of high integrity? Disagreed, that is not the case for many hundreds if not thousands. And what does your business partners ‘previous success’ have to do with the price a wheat in China? That has nothing to do with the scam they are perpetrating on tens of thousands now.

    Mark Twain, You just like the rest of the cronies including the PC… what nothing more than to shut people up,(how is this leading to the truth?) and I thought you believed in the rights of Americans and are so Patriotic? Silencing people, is not freedom of speech. Oh that is right, it is only the LIE..f..ers who have those rights! Did you read the Orrin= Qrush Post?

    NOT one of you could care less about the TRUTH, it is about MONEY, it is about hiding it. The true courageous tell it and FACE it, so good luck your little note was fruitless,well maybe not, it validates everything we say on here, so thanks! But it is fruitless in your attempt to shut people up..and as Mike says..we aren’t going anywhere so you might as well get used to it!

  143. Vogel permalink
    November 14, 2011 9:21 am

    My favorite line was this one: “Stop wasting precious bytes in the data world, unless you have something positive to say about someone else.”

    Har har! This loon must have just finished watching The Matrix when he came up with that “precious bytes” comment and figured it would sound futurey and integlligent-ish, never stopping to ponder the fact that bytes are far from precious — they’re worth like a millionth of a nano-penny.

    These TEAMers really must stop sending their children to do their PR work.

  144. brent hansen permalink
    November 14, 2011 10:55 am

    My response to Mr. Twain:

    Mr. Twain,

    I am not specifically anti-Life leadership system, I am anti product-based pyramid schemes, which unfortunately, Life falls into. If there is ever anything I can do to help you understand what you have gotten yourself into, I would be more than glad to offer my services. You see, I have an extensive understanding of wealth redistribution models such as Life, because, I participated in such models to the tune of around $250,000 plus, and helped many others lose that kind of money as well, over a twelve or thirteen year period.

    I am not willing to address any of your comments because I would rather stick to the facts. If you are willing to discuss the facts, feel free to get a hold of me through email, and I would be glad to extend a personal phone call to you.

    Sincerely, Brent Hansen

  145. No Team For Me permalink
    November 14, 2011 2:12 pm

    Mark Twain – that is almost laughable. “Take some responsibility?” Did you really just say that? What about Orrin & Crew taking on responsibility for the lies, group stealing and all the ruined lives they have caused? Have you even bothered to read through this blog and read the stories of those of us who really built this business?

    We are not a bunch of quiters. We actually built some very large businesses. And we are not just criticizing. We are trying to expose the truth. We wish someone would have cared enough about us to share the truth with us before we lost so much.

    People need to hear from people who were directly involved at some of the highest levels of TEAM and see what really happened behind closed doors before they waste their time & money.

    And your comment about people who can’t defend themselves…….I think you meant people who won’t defend themselves because they can’t justify their lies to anyone not mesmoried by them. Emotion won’t work here. Facts is what we were all needing. And facts is not what any of us were given.

    Go ahead. Ask Orrin for a breakdown of each RT & Director’s volume. Why is it that Amway & MonaVie can show us exactly how much volume each and every distributor in our group did and show us the formula to arrive at our bonus, but somehow with Team, we were all just supposed to take Orrin’s word for what our total volume was and what his formula was? And why did the amount fluctuate so much from month to month and not seem to match up to the growth we knew we were having?

    Do some more research Mark Twain. And tell Orrin & friends to take some responsibility for their actions and stop preaching integrity & character from stage when it’s so obvious they have none.

  146. D Franks permalink
    November 26, 2011 2:23 pm

    if pawns dont make any money why do I make $7,500 a month and work roughly 15 hours a month

  147. Brent Hansen permalink
    November 26, 2011 3:53 pm

    D. Franks,

    First question, are you making $7,500 a month from Life? Secondly, it is not about how much any one individual can make, we know people can make money with MLM. I would ask you what percentage of people in your business are actually able to cover their cost of their monthly subscription?

    Obviously, you are not a pawn if you are making that kind of money, but I guarantee you there are a lot of pawns in your group.

  148. November 26, 2011 3:57 pm

    sounds like a PC member incognito, or at least a RT. Oh, wait, isn’t that an income claim? 😉 Woodward will kick your ………..

  149. Jeff permalink
    January 27, 2012 3:31 pm

    Thank you for this informative post – it was immensely more helpful than the email reply I received from the LIFE Support team as it seems you need to be an existing Independent Member to access the P&Ps (or it was just hidden so well I couldn’t find it!)

    LIFE Support
    to me
    There is great detail about this on the LIFE website under the Policies and Procedures agreement. Please read that.
    LIFE Support

    My original question was whether I could build a LIFE business along with my current MLM business… Even though that part of the P&Ps is not too bad (3.10) I think I will just stick to my current business for now!

  150. February 26, 2012 12:12 am

    sooo if i did sign it what can i do?

  151. February 26, 2012 8:27 am

    @Jason – You can quit after signing up within 30-days for a full, money back guarantee (according to what Orrin Woodward himself has posted). Should you decide to take them up on this offer, let us know how it goes.

  152. April 18, 2012 2:32 am

    I was in this LIFE Team for a little while. It is certainly a money racket. An aquaintance of mine got me into it, and right away I was dishing out good bits of money. I was sold cd’s and books by the group that within 2 months I received again with my monthly subscription. Needless to say that I was lucky enough to get about 75% of my money back when I quit the whole thing shortly thereafter. Definately stay away from this!

  153. Gaven Sashidharan permalink
    May 7, 2012 10:04 am

    From reading most of the comments it’s clear to me that your “followers” have not read any other policy and procedures from the companies they work for. Most of the information in policy and procedures are to protect a company. I work for a law firm and I’ve seen multiple policy and procedures and I can tell you they all aim to protect the company. If you don’t believe me, go read your P&P for the company you work for.

    Let me give you an example and tell me if this sounds familiar. (I’ve simplified this for your audience) If you promote, discuss or support a competitors product, you will be reprimanded and or terminated. That’s what big clothing department stores have in their P&P. So when your followers make a huge deal about how TEAM will come down hard on you or whatever, take the time to actually think for yourself instead of listening to more “propaganda” from this blog site. It’s not a big surprise for company’s to have such language in their P&P.

    So before you blind people with your own propaganda, think logically when pointing out one’s flaws. For those that commented, actually pick up the P&P of the company you work for and read it thoroughly before making an uneducated comment.

    For the one’s that like to hide their identity, here’s my name and email address. Email me with your information and tell me what you were like before and after team and how you truly are a better person now.
    Gaven Sashidharan

  154. Mike collins permalink
    May 7, 2012 3:54 pm

    Gaven said: “So before you blind people with your own propaganda, think logically when pointing out one’s flaws.”

    Before you come on this thread spouting off to these folks about how you “work for a law firm” and “have seen numerous p&p’s” perhaps you should work on your grammar so you at least have the appearance of being educated enough to “reprimand” them.

    I mean what do you do at that “law firm” gaven, empty the waste baskets?

  155. Gaven YouShouldKnowMeByNow permalink
    May 8, 2012 11:51 am

    @ Mike Collins. Is that the best you can do? That’s funny how you hide behind this site just like the rest of the cowards. I left an open invitation to all of you. 1 person replied. Scott Johnson. I can forward you the messages him and I had. And just like the rest of you he had nothing to offer. So Mike, because of a typo, you feel you can put people down. Glad to see that after you left TEAM/the cult, you went on to improving yourself on your own. I’m pretty sure WeBelieved has done the same thing because he finds you funny. And btw Mike, if you want to point out my grammar, here’s what Mike said “I mean what do you do at that “law firm” gaven, empty the waste baskets?” Last time I checked a proper name began with a capital letter. :o)

    I wasn’t trying to tell you what to do WeDon’tHaveTheGutsToPutOurNameOnHere aka WeBelieved. I was trying to point out the fact that corporations use P&Ps as a method to protect themselves. And all AMTHRAX is doing is trying to point out that they are being controlling. And just like you did on TEAM (was a follower of a cult), you are on here following AMTHRAX. Bravo!

    My invitation is still open. Anyone else? I’ve just dealt with Mike and WeAreTooAfraidToSayAnythingWithoutUsingOurNames.

  156. G.S. permalink
    May 9, 2012 6:47 am

    Ha! I figured. AMTHRAX you are a coward like the rest of your “followers” I know you will read this. You couldn’t post my last message? Pathetic waste of space. It’s cowards like you that bring this world down. And you have WeBelieved as your little sidekick. That guy has no life and is truly a failure.

    So go ahead, delete this one too. But I know you have read it. Coward!

  157. May 10, 2012 12:00 pm

    Gaven and GS you two aren’t going to get anywhere with rudeness and name-calling. As for the reason why we left TEAM is because of the vast amount of money and time we’re spending away from our families, working ourselves into depression, sicknesses, and broken families,don’t you agree that’s enough to quit TEAM if that’s what’s taking us away from our worlds? Let’s be reasonable here. As for us hiding our names, we have a right to hide our names if we want, that’s not up to you to judge.

    As for me, Gaven and GS, I was under a lot of pressure to push “towards my goal”, and was pressured to stay in the business even after I was in for 7 months, not made any recruits, and have maxed out my credit cards. That, my friends, is immoral and unethical for any business to do. If a business isn’t working out, we have every right to leave. And we have every right not to be pressured to stay. \

    I’ve studied cults for many years. I’ve seen cult-like practises when I was going to meetings, the instant friendship, the one-head-leader worship, the constant demand for time and money, changes of original personalities to personalities of the TEAM’s expectations. It’s freaky once you sit back and have a good honest look at what you’re getting into.

    Read the personal stories on the rest of Amthrax’s site. I dare you.

  158. May 10, 2012 12:50 pm

    @Gaven – As I mentioned in another thread, by using a different name (G.S.), your comment was sent to moderation. It has been since approved, along with your Gaven YouShouldKnowMeByNow handle). Stick with one, and the rest of your comments will be approved automatically.

  159. Mike collins permalink
    May 10, 2012 1:22 pm

    gaven with a little g, please allow me to point out this subtlety, the little g is on purpose. I often use it on people like you who “work in law firms” and the like LOL. It’s a diminutive (you can look that up if you like) form of your name that I’m using to express my feelings toward you and your uneducated opinion. Kind of like when I say orrin…..get it?

    And I was never with team AND….. You haven’t dealt with anyone buddy

  160. Brent Hansen permalink
    May 10, 2012 6:35 pm

    Mike Collins please educate me. Was the use of a small “g” for gavin kind of like the small “d” you used for danny in one of your other online discussions?

    Being a farmer, I may be a bit naive but I think I am catching on to the technique. I like it, think I will start using that one myself.

    Gavin, I can email you or call you, what is it you would like to discuss? Perhaps a heads up on our topic would help so that I may prep a little in advance. After all, I will be talking to a quasi-attorney correct?

    Its funny Amthrax how people thing your moderating comments when they switch user names huh? I think I did that myself a time or two, but I wasn’t silly enough to expose my ignorance for the general public to see.

  161. Speak Your Truth permalink
    May 11, 2012 9:33 am

    I find it veeerry interesting that “Gaven?” Wonder if it is the same Gaven Sashidaharan here: ( “law firm” is SNR Denton?).. as a “Technical Support Specialist at SNR Denton”..IF this is him….kinda funny IT TECH.. but wanted to ‘leave’ the impression that he is something “at a law firm”. Mike’s question could be a little more was funny anyway.

    and the same person under “Company Contacts” here as the IT Executive :

    He won’t speak live on the phone but will converse through email? I believe he said he wants it in writing… Then uses 3 different monikers AND has the audacity to tell people they are hiding behind this site (including Mike Collins who gives his full name, FB page, an email somewhere on here, I believe?!) He uses the LIEfer typical “coward” and “hiding” tactic bs on others when he uses 3 different monikers?..Just another hypocrite LIEfer doing orrin bidding for him, IMO.

    Gaven? And the MOST interesting to me, is why the specific vendetta towards Amthax & Webelieved? Now that he/she has been called out now wants to run and hide? “has wasted his time”, but turned up the intensity of the name calling.. “Coward” & ( Webelieved sidekick?…that is the best…lol) Where does one come up with this sh*t?…Haha especially since he knows no one! Now who and or why…would that be……hmmm….I could speculate but ….but it all reeks!

    Mike I am with you on the little (g) and little (o), it is the way I feel… lack of respect I have for any dirtbags, that don’t deserve an ounce of my respect.

  162. Mike Collins permalink
    May 11, 2012 9:57 am

    Thanks for the great info Speak! I cannot decide who has been cheated the most here. gaven for his apparent lack of education at southern Illinois or is it Southern Illinois that is being cheated by one of their alumni? Did they really let this clown graduate?

    And IT Tech huh? I think little gaven is probably best suited to empty waste baskets as I had previously guessed and perhaps sharpen the pencils……..perhaps.

    And gaven, ( with a little g) as speak indicated, I’m easy to get ahold of.

  163. Mike Collins permalink
    May 11, 2012 9:58 am


  164. May 11, 2012 10:06 am

    Keep in mind that he wasn’t using three completely different monikers, just variations on his name. With this commenting system, even a single character difference in the name is enough to send a comment to the moderation queue.

    Moving forward, let’s focus on what he’s saying and not resort to making fun of his name.

  165. Speak Your Truth permalink
    May 11, 2012 10:27 am

    Yes I understand Amthrax. 🙂

    I can see that with the other 2 monikers other than I don’t see the point of doing this when you are want them to follow you conversation, but the G.S could easily be perceived as a totally different person.

  166. Speak Your Truth permalink
    May 11, 2012 1:11 pm


    You are welcome..and no problem. Call me ignorant but I didn’t know an IT TECH had sooooo much experience in “mulitple P&P’s” lol…. 🙂

  167. Speak Your Truth permalink
    May 11, 2012 1:25 pm

    Well, gaven…here is a couple MORE quotes (although I have ‘wasted way too much time on you’:

    (1) So before you blind people with your own propaganda, think logically when pointing out one’s flaws.

    (2) “I’m not here to defend, criticize, or promote anything or anyone.”~ Gaven Sashidharan Reeealllly?

    (3) Then you say: “AMTHRAX you are a coward like the rest of your “followers” I know you will read this. You couldn’t post my last message? Pathetic waste of space. It’s cowards like you that bring this world down. And you have WeBelieved as your little sidekick. That guy has no life and is truly a failure.”~ Gaven YouShouldKnowMeByNow

    Gaven why such bitterness and the personal vendetta against Amthrax and Webelieved…. when they have sown you no disrespect? You are “following” and modeling your masters, nicely.

    I don’t think you will have a hard time figuring out why the contempt and lack of respect (you have Earned here) so don’t give us the thoughtless, mind controlled responses… “spreading negative’’ and all the rest of your name calling, condescending typical LIEfer heartless, ‘tough skinned’… bs, you are representing your “Christian” ‘masters’.. but we have become immune to the hatefulness and name calling, as a matter of fact we expect it, Why? Because they are threatened by the TRUTH!

    This is NOT a game we play with people’s lives here; unlike the scam you defend and represent. And someday you will have to admit it!

    When you fail in LIEf (you have about a 99% chance), and find yourself humiliated and deeply wounded, then you can come join us here….where the ‘real leaders’ with integrity and guts are.. who do the right thing and have compassion for people like you! Not “followers”…that, my friend… is your title.

    You will be amazed at how forgiving all on here are; when you “do the right thing”… but I do believe you will owe some..a very sincere apology, if only by grace will be the only way you find it in yourself.

    One last thing NO ONE is looking for your insincere “almost felt sympathy”….any human with a conscience and heart would feel ‘empathy’ for the people who have been “badly burnt”…but I do believe there is hope for you; because you will be humbled and see the truth…it is inevitable…then it will be your opportunity to come back here…and do the right thing. Looking forward to it, Gaven 🙂

  168. MustHaveBeenTerribleMother permalink
    August 18, 2012 12:16 am

    webelieved: we gotta talk about some of the “threats” in this page’s data tomorrow–would these have constitutional backing? If I put a plea online to my son to get help to avoid injury, and he ignored it because of their edicts, etc., could they be held liable if it resulted in his injury or worse, death? Man, I have NEVER, IN MY ENTIRE LIFE, IN READING ANY GERMAN OR RUSSIAN 20TH CENTURY HISTORY, read such insane claptrap. Have they got these people in an imaginary Warsaw Ghetto?

    This phrase is really something: ” or any common law duty”


    Oh, and this “company” is worried about one of their peon’s “damaging the reputation” of it? Sweet Jehosephat, the Poohbahs and their lawyers and consultants do well enough on their own at it.

    I keep hoping that somewhere in this contrived MANIFESTO lies the key to their downfall, but then, I’ve always been a dreamer for justice.

  169. Emily Olson permalink
    December 1, 2012 6:48 am

    You obviously had a bad experience with the program and didn’t put any effort forth, This business does work and many people are benefitting from it. We get 70+% of the money we as a whole put into it back because of the way we opperate. We have free trips and one time bonuses. Go to a meeting and be inspired and don’t drag people down. Do you consult anyone when you go to BAM or any other book store to get a self help book? Is your name even on this page to contact? Are you just another 95 percenter that just can’t break the habits of your own life to Live the LIFE you have always wanted?

    Let people decide for themselves on whether the Life/ Team is right for them and quit putting garbage on the internet about our leaders that you seem to be in competition with.
    Emily Olson

  170. December 1, 2012 6:56 pm

    @Emily – This is exactly what we’re doing. We’re providing the other side of the TEAM/LIFE story. Prospects can attend your meetings, hear your testimonials, purchase your tools, etc. They can also come home to read stories from people who had a negative experience with TEAM/LIFE. At that point, they can decide for themselves if they want to pursue the TEAM/LIFE business or not.

  171. freedomhaha permalink
    December 1, 2012 8:44 pm

    Emily- Thank you for coming on and commenting. It says a lot that you are willing to check out the other side of the story, and stand up for what you feel is right. Even though I disagree I do commend you for standing on your principals. That being said I have a simple question for you Emily. What percentage of your downline is making a profit?

  172. Mike Collins permalink
    December 1, 2012 10:11 pm

    Amthrax again hits the nail on the head…

    Raquel: I think you qualify…..probably a little more than Emily

    Freedom: I’ll bet she hardly has a team to speak of. The people ( be they very few ) that are actually turning a profit in this travesty masquerading as a business opportunity, are NOT posting here, guaranteed.

    The teamers that ARE posting here are low level distributors with a dream that are hoping what all of you are saying isn’t true.

  173. freedomhaha permalink
    December 2, 2012 5:52 am

    Mike- The people that are turning a profit aren’t posting here, but you can bet they are reading it. I am sure that alarm bells go off on their phones when a new article is posted on here so they can spin their side of the story as quickly as possible.

  174. freedomhaha permalink
    December 2, 2012 5:54 am

    It is kind of ironic that they call people “95%ers” when that really should be used to describe the percentage of people that help fund the PC lifestyle.

  175. Melanie Morgan permalink
    December 2, 2012 11:49 am

    It is shameful the power of their undue influence they have ‘over’ the “followers’, they have “justified” this and called it “war” and in their little world anything mind to ethics, integrity, Christian principle..anything goes and nothing else matters. History certainly repeats itself!

  176. Freedomhaha permalink
    December 2, 2012 12:11 pm

    Raquel- They would have everything to gain from winning a debate where we would gain nothing.Yet one side is wiling to debate while the other side is not.

  177. Melanie Morgan permalink
    December 2, 2012 12:19 pm


    Agreed. I have been see some real interesting “truth” from some of the people who were in the highest levels in Scientology and WOW the exact same practices are used there!

    I remember when Orrin was so Excited about L.Ron Hubbard’s book..”Dianetics”..between that and his “war books!” Remember what “goes in”..”comes out!”…

    What I have been finding real interesting after speaking with some high level cross-liners (haha) they too without a doubt, believe it is a cult and also their of the opinion, that the PC knows this and is using it to their advantage! IMO, I too agee with them!

    Greed!…Sick, very sick!

  178. Melanie Morgan permalink
    December 2, 2012 12:29 pm

    The PC and others have Lost All Respect and “friends” by some of the best people I have met, more than anyone I have ever seen!

    Not sure how they sleep knowing they created these enemies because of greed! But someday whether on earth or the after, they will answer for what they have done.

  179. MiniatureGiantSpaceHampster permalink
    March 29, 2013 6:39 pm

    “3.21- One LIFE Business Per Member and Per Household
    A Member may operate or have an ownership interest, legal or equitable, as a sole
    proprietorship, trustee, or beneficiary, in only one LIFE business. No individual may have,
    operate or receive compensation from more than one LIFE business unless approved by LIFE.
    Individuals of the same Household may not enter into or have an interest in more than one LIFE
    In order to maintain the integrity of the LIFE Compensation Plan, Spouses who wish to
    become LIFE Members must be jointly enrolled as one LIFE business. Spouses, regardless of
    whether one or both are signatories to the Independent Member Application and Agreement, may
    not own or operate any other LIFE business, either individually or jointly, nor may they
    participate directly or indirectly (as a trustee, trust beneficiary, or have any other legal or
    equitable ownership) in the ownership or management of another LIFE business in any form.
    An exception to the one business per Member/household rule will be considered on a case
    by case basis if a Member receives an interest in another business through inheritance. Requests
    for exceptions to this policy must be submitted in writing to the Member Services Department.
    In cases where Members marry, one business must be selected and the second business

    I admit to not having read the P&P when I signed up. If this is different to what I should have read I can not say. However, what I can say is my upline and I were attempting to recruit my brother who lives in my home. From my interpretation this goes against the P&P. Or does this mean there can be no cross-lines in the same household?

    Thoughts please?

    Anyways, off to bed I go!

  180. March 30, 2013 9:19 am

    I interpreted this to mean a married couple couldn’t have two businesses. Didn’t think about adult siblings in the same household or parents and their adult children having separate businesses.

  181. MemoryLame permalink
    March 30, 2013 10:03 am

    I think this is just an example of the shoddy work put into the P&P. my guess is that an upline would make an exception to adult children, silings, etc.; but not married couples.

  182. Melanie Morgan permalink
    March 30, 2013 6:42 pm

    I also think it refers to a married couple.

  183. Former Round Table permalink
    April 1, 2013 5:22 am

    I believe that when Orrin Woodward had the Policies and Procedures drafted, he delibrately put in things like “members of the same household” as a way to further manipulate and hold your business hostage. A reasonable person would think that just means a married couple, but if that is what they really meant, that is what they would have said. Orrin and Co. are counting on you “assuming” it means a married couple. Years later, in the unlikely event that you have built any kind of business, they can use your willful disregard of the P&P to legally take your business.

    Orrin Woodward is a snake, a liar, a schemer, and a master manipulator. It is no accident that the phrase is worded that way.

  184. leslie permalink
    May 14, 2013 1:29 pm

    The policy and procedures validate the following and at the same time contradict everything the Life member has been telling me. Thank you for putting these docs out here!
    1- You are and never will be a Business Owner
    2- You will never have passive income
    3- If you quit being productive, your membership can be cancelled
    4- If you quit, or your membership is cancelled, you lose your income
    5- Income is directly related to how much time you put in
    6- Your pipeline, your place in the line, and/or your downline really means nothing since they can take it away
    7- Your personal life is no longer YOUR personal life

    Life members are like a kings army. Expendable, replaceable, and needed only so long as you can protect the king.

    Interesting. The only difference between Life and my current job is that:
    1. I don’t have to pay my employer to work here
    2. My personal life, stays personal
    3. I don’t have to give up time with my family to go to rah rah meetings so I can stay enthused about converting others into a little income army.

  185. leslie permalink
    May 15, 2013 7:27 am

    Where can I get the current income data I need for “Life Business/Team” to be able to determine how many of the consultants actually make money and the answer to what is their percent of sales to non consultants?

  186. Melanie Morgan permalink
    May 15, 2013 11:27 am


    Great and valid points. An income disclosure statement? Ha, sorry I wouldn’t trust it anyway.. It ought to be real interesting though to see the approach…haven’t seen one and Lord only knows how convoluted the “data” will be, what time frame or specialiness it will take on..(they switched the name to LIFE, 11/11/11 a year and a half ago, see history of prior names and actions).

    Just a guess one based on experience…You can count on them knowing there will be a few who will be analysing and understanding how they will “frame it” …they are experienced.

    I have very little doubt that it will appear as an amazingly perfect business model with the perfect amount of customer ratio…..they imply their business opportunity offers you the answers to every area of your life and you can live the life you always wanted to live!

    So what “more” (there is always more) could a person ask for? Just make sure you are not expecting financial freedom or passive residual, ongoing pipeline income….EVER…..remember your idea of of the “life” ( or business) you always wanted will not be their idea…. “You will have to change” your idea and accept and conform to the (life) business they believe think you want not what you thought you wanted or even believed what they tell you it will be….because they own it not you!

    It will be dramatically different from what they tell you, I will assure you…but hey..anything to convince you…from my experience their words and fluffed up self created reputation..have no significance, their words are worthless cuz their action reveal their character…they scream louder, much louder…as you have already figured out…they will say the very opposite of the reality.

    They have to get you to “believe” just long enough til you think what they promise and hype will be true for you…their objective is to remove any and all doubt, even if it means lying or withholding pertinent info or homre commonly distracting and spinning it..until you stop guestioning (loose your common sense)and… just trust them..take their word for it….this and a few other indicators is how they know they “got cha”…very iportant lesson of what never to do…big huge mistake and a opportunity they will never get again!

    Moral of story never blindly trust what they tell you…Ever..verify, ask questions make them prove their answers, do not accept their “you will get all those and other questions answered at the seminar…open meeting..when you meet my walking-on-water pipeline”….Do your research, don’t buckle to the peer love bombing pressure..use common business sense demand your money and business questions get answered….and trust your gut!!

  187. Melanie Morgan permalink
    May 15, 2013 11:34 am

    Should say “up line” not “pipeline”‘ this device won’t allow me to type unrecognized words…It I guess wants to think for me haha….seems pretty familiar to my team experience.

  188. Freedomhaha permalink
    May 15, 2013 2:39 pm

    Leslie- Would you mind sharing a little bit about how you were contacted, and how you found this website? I have no doubt that it can and will help others who are looking at making the horrible plunge into LIFE Training (insert name of the month)


  189. leslie permalink
    May 17, 2013 9:41 am

    I’ve noticed they don’t push the actual product. I don’t even really know what the products are, I mean I know they are self help and motivation material, but I really don’t know any of the details of the materials. I have listened to a few cds that are not about how to get others to join and they seem good and are informative. I wonder though, those have are financially free.. or claim to be, have been involved since before the cds and books were the products. That tells me that they were able to sell and get signers with a diff product. How does the income stream stay for them when the company shut down and reborn selling something totally diff? And what happened to all those who sold and signed up those when they were selling the other product that were not the top guys? I do realize the goal is sign up others, but the products you represent have to be part of the sign up process. Heck to be a legal enterprise; it has to be a significant number of customers that are not members who buy the product. I would like to know the percent of non member buyer… I get that if you can sign people up and grow a community of those who are also working to sign up people, you must make something cause the signing up is part of the comp plan. As long as you’re constantly signing people, money is flowing in, but most I suspect will cancel, so the income stops as fast as it starts. Yes? Also, the person who posted that had a few teams and then they were moved from her, how much was her income when she was involved? Did she ever earn free trips? How much was the Net income? What was her average income compared to the hours she worked? $7 and hour? $10, less? More? I’m curious cause so many stay in for yrs and if so, how do they live if there isn’t any income from what they are doing? I guess I’m wondering if the income is equal to the work you put in any way. I’m already sure what ever you make is never going to make you rich. You would need to build not just teams, but you would need those teams to build teams and those to build teams and so on till there were so many under you that even if there is 50% cancel ever month (and id love to know exactly what is the cancel rate) there are so many below you that are constantly signing up more that you wouldn’t be to badly affected income wise. That seems like you would have to work harder than you would in any other job for like 10 yrs and even then you are fully dependent on those below you. I’m asking these questions because even after you know it’s not a good deal, your mind is saying what if? And asks questions looking for reasons to believe it can be true. Some won’t think farther than the easy questions, which they have answers to and I want others to think farther. (BTW, LIFE teaches you that you need to think for yourself, but that thinking needs to be in line with theirs to be correct.. Some other things that come to mind is this, they say to have a lasting business you need a product that is recession proof. Are they expecting the economy to go into a huge depression? If so, why are they selling a product that is not a necessity? Non necessities don’t sell when you can only buy what you need to survive. If they don’t expect a recession, then why do the tapes on finance suggest its coming.. Is it because they are 2 yrs old? Also, if the product is so good, and the deal is such a great one, why do you constantly need a community to reinforce it every week? Is this even a good idea if you are a great sales person and just want a way to make a few bucks on the side? As for how I was contacted, it was random. I was given just enough info to be interested, but also my personality was assessed in the first few mins of conversation buy asking some conversational questions. Then based on my answers the pitch was tailored to appeal to my personality. I saw it, but was actually impressed with the person’s ability to size me up so quick. I thought if this person is that good, maybe there is something I can learn from them. I figure this site is monitored by the Life group so I don’t want to say much more. I think the people in the majority of this company are nice and struggling like all of us so I don’t want to say anything derogatory about them. I am asking about the company as a company, to help identify certain thoughts for those who are being recruited and to find facts. I am still doing research and honestly haven’t decided to what degree this company could if at all be viable for someone. It seems it’s like any other, you work, you get income, you don’t, and you don’t get income. You don’t own it, you work for them, you are not safe from loss of the job or a recession, the work you do is for the company, not you. My questions are to help discover if this company is a complete lose lose or just another job for someone who is looking for a job selling. Is it possible at all to make enough income from this company to survive and for how long.

  190. noteam permalink
    May 17, 2013 11:40 am

    Leslie – great questions!
    As far as what the odds are to make income and for how long…..check out the bankruptcy info of the Hubers & Darkangelo’s on this website. I think most would agree, both of those couples are in the top 10-20 income earners in the entire organization. Yet, look at the details of their bankruptcy papers. Darkangelo racked up over $200k of consumer debt. If he’s like most of us, it was on gas, hotels, cd’s and follow-up materials to ‘ride the roads’ and build an organization.

    I think most would also agree that since the inception of the Team/Life/whatever they call themselves these days, there has been well over 100,000 people run through ‘the system’ to some degree or another.

    So in other words, out of 100,000+ people only 7 made it to the PC level, and 2 of the top 20 were still spending more than they were making. That has got to be the worst percentage of people earning income I have ever seen.

    I will tell you that the year we left, I did not have a single (not one) person in our entire organization who made enough net profit to cover the cost of their products and training material if they were active with the system. That means every single one had a net loss after expenses. And we had a fairly large organization.

  191. leslie permalink
    May 17, 2013 12:29 pm

    The book, LeaderShift, seems to be a blue print of Orrin’s true purpose in gathering such a large community. Does he want to be president or does he want to gather enough public influence to make America his personal playground. He prob likes all the controversy since it fires up people and gets his name even more well known. Those who don’t get involved will be familiar with his name and some would simply check a box next to
    his name because it’s familiar. It also serves to
    keep the focus off his true motive, which could
    easily be to get the public opinion. Who has more
    Influence than the person or group that has not the majority but had a huge group of doers behind him. You don’t need the majority to control, you need only weed out those who will take action, assemble them, focus them and give them direction.

  192. Melanie Morgan permalink
    May 17, 2013 2:20 pm


    I love your questions and observations, keep doing that. I am impressed, not too many people can resist the pot of gold and the touted you will “live the life you always wanted” by joining them, that they offer. So thanks for sharing a way others can think through this the way you are!

    I find it hysterical they are telling people to “think for themselves,”…nice try, just because they say it doesn’t mean they do it, at least from my experience that would be a joke… they are doing their best to change what you believe and think…that is as you are seeing, to their way of thinking, bombarding and indoctrinating others with ‘their correct information’, their (the only ones who have all the answers the guy at the top) his philosophy they push.. how bout their entire “system” of controlled information they pick for you?

    They are selling an illusive lifestyle;
    ‘the life you always wanted’ and display the TOP’s 6 0r 7 as that selling point…but for you to be as “successful” as them you must have to adopt their beliefs, that you will need to buy into?.. & How bout the “mentorship” (them correcting your thinking and keeping you “on track?”); that they would like you to belive is necessity for you being successful?

    The entire foundation is about controlling information and helping you think! Remember, they offer thee answers to your problems in all area’s (8 F’s), of your life?

    All is Designed for you to ” change your thinking”…

    Thinking for yourself in their system…is a great example of an oxymoron!

  193. Freedomhaha permalink
    May 17, 2013 4:48 pm


    “I wonder though, those have are financially free.. or claim to be, have been involved since before the cds and books were the products”

    All of these people have been in the business since Amway. Keep in mind that Amway was three businesses ago.

  194. TruthSeeker permalink
    May 17, 2013 4:54 pm

    Orrin, a patriot incognito….if we only knew his true motives…give me a freakin break…gonna puke now.

  195. MemoryLame permalink
    May 17, 2013 7:17 pm

    Brady: what are we going to do tonight, Orrin?
    Orrin: the same thing we do every night, Pinky – try to take over the world!!!
    Brady: Derp!

  196. Melanie Morgan permalink
    May 17, 2013 7:30 pm


    Thanks for the belly laugh! 🙂

  197. The One Who Calls Himself "Me" permalink
    April 29, 2014 8:47 pm Responding to Negative Posts

    Oh man, if that’s a rule…. I think I am gonna get fired!

    [editor’s note: This comment was from Chris M. Please use the same handle so we can keep track of your comments.]

  198. Anonymous permalink
    December 12, 2016 5:51 pm

    It appears Life Leadership and their Financial Fitness program is following in the footsteps of MLM Karatbars in offering one gram gold cards

    One gram is about 1/31 Troy oz..Orrin Woodward and Chris Brady are charging $48.77 per card for 31 cards, total of $1511.87. Current spot price (according to their website) is $1163.30. Such a deal !!!!! And free shipping to boot ! One guess where the profits of these cards will go.

    I wonder if the buyers of these gram cards realize the cards have nowhere near the liquidity of coins like Eagles, Buffalos or Maple Leafs.


  1. Members Can’t Relabel LIFE Materials, But Orrin Can And Will « AMTHRAX
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  3. Ebay’s uber-auctions Has Lots of TEAM LIFE Tools For Sale « AMTHRAX
  4. Anti-Amthrax Blog « AMTHRAX
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