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More Ex-TEAM Members Commenting About Their TEAM/Woodward Experiences

November 10, 2010

I’ve been noticing more ex-TEAM members posting on forums such as JuiceScam and Lazy Man’s MonaVie blog post.

There weren’t as many dissenting opinions on TEAM and Orrin Woodward when I started this blog a few years ago. That was right around the time when Orrin and his flock moved to MonaVie following his termination from Quixtar/Amway. I suspect that his promises of becoming one million strong and leading people to the promise land of milk, honey and MonaVie haven’t panned out for many. Instead of hiding away in shame, they have come out in full force to comment against Woodward and TEAM.

Here’s another good one from the discussion about the TEAM Tool Trunk:

# Ex-TEAM Says:
November 8th, 2010 at 8:01 pm

I ‘was’ a TEAM member. I worked with Mark Crawford, Orrin Woodward and in my business was a policy coucil member (Claude Hamilton). This business is a 100% SCAM. LISTEN TO SOMEONE FROM THE INSIDE. I “invested” thousands of dollars on ‘tools’, seminars, gas, hotel meetings, major seminars, cell phone bills, promotions, monthly incentives to get around my ‘leaders’, miles on my car, tires for my car, fast food (diet programs to lose the weight), promo clothes, promo product, magazines, monthly seminars, books, etc. I reached a high level of success and was invited to attend small meetings with these ‘leaders’ often. This is a SCAM. Its 100% based on taking advantage of ‘relationships’. You will do ANYTHING to maintain the realtionship. Including spending ALL of your savings in the HOPE of this opportunity serving your Dreams. The ‘next person’ will help you achieve your Dreams, and the ‘NEXT’ person will help you achieve your dreams. It NEVER will end. Why do you think the top leaders can never stop??? Why do the top leaders do open meetings constantly??? Becasue they have nothing better to do? becasue they want to meet the people on their team? NO!!! Because they need to continue to MOTIVATE the ‘leaders’ on their team. This business has DESTROYED my family. I’m not a victom, but I’m speaking from A LOT of experience with this ‘opportunity’. People DO NOT realize how much work you ACTUALLY need to do, NIGHT AFTER NIGHT – 6 nights per week, thinking about it – 24 hrs /day to make it work. ITS NOT PART-TIME, ITS A LIFETIME decision and all of those people who disagree, has had NO success in this business. I’ve seen months where I’ve earned 9K dollars in this business… and before you say, there’s proof that it works… whoa, hold up! after 5 years… I accumulated over 90K in DEBT due to this ‘opportunity’. I easily invested 40k per year into building it. The leaders will tell you… there is NO OTHER ‘opportunity’ in the WORLD that will help you achieve your dreams. “If you quit, you will NEVER WIN”. “This opportunity is your ONLY chance of achieveing your dreams”… the REAL reason is because the ‘leaders’ have built their homes with thousands and thousands of people credit card debt. Claude Hamilton’s new home in Nova Scotia is a good example. Orrin’s yacht (bought from Billy Florence) is a good example. This business will only trap you into believing that you need to have a PhD in Self Improvement to advance, and thats because the ‘leaders’ NEED you to continue to purchase new cds/books, OR they don’t advance. The REAL business here is selling tools. NO MORE LIES.

This ex-TEAM member is right about the work involved to keep a “successful” MonaVie business up and running. You can’t simply sit back on the beaches of the world and let the business run itself. It’s good to see more and more people agreeing with the fact that building a business is like building sandcastles.

1,456 Comments leave one →
  1. jake permalink
    November 11, 2010 7:06 pm

    Wow, that is about as close as it get to the facts about TEAM. Being apart of the TEAM business from 2000-2005 I got to learn from Orrin, Chris and Tim personally. While Tim and Chris may have “hearts of gold” lol or black diamonds, Orrin can convince anyone of his big lie. Until the IBO unplugs from the system either voluntarily or because the debt has drowned them, they will be slaves to the TEAM brainwashing machine. A quote I will never forget from Orrin ” A big lie is more easily believed than a small one.” Amthrax, I think that it takes time for the “victims” to speak openly about there experiences because of the mind control techniques used by the TEAM. If you indoctrinate yourself with 3 or more hours a day for a year or more of any propaganda and have “invested” thousands of dollars, you can expect the same amount of time coming to come back to reality and stop blaming yourself for failure. The underlying theme of all the meetings, audio, and video i have seen have been you are not good enough to build this business as you are. If you are not yet successful you need more books CD’s and meetings. A Trem I learned from Don and Chris Freeze is the Trem “Sunk Cost”. If you have lost thousands trying to get your TEAM off the ground Please don’t spend Thousands more tring to get that money back. “The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over expecting to get a different result” Right Orrin. 🙂

    Listen EX-TEAM and everyone like you, it is not your fault, you are not a failure, you have just been taken advantage of by some of the most cleverly disguised, and unscrupulous con-men in the world. Shame on all of the TEAM leaders for promoting the lie when you know the truth and you have seen the hurt you have cause so many families. you know what happens in the life of your downline IBO’s. For you to go on stage and spout about how anyone can be like you shows by your actions that you are greedy and willing to make money directly from people you clam to care about and edify while they lose their families, homes, futures.

    By the way GOD is not a tool for you to hide behind. Orrin remember Satan is the father of lies.

  2. November 14, 2010 9:44 am

    Hi all, I agree that recently there has been seemingly a slight increase in the number of “ex-TEAM” members who are “coming out” to speak (negatively) about TEAM.

    However, how can you verify that they are NOT:

    1. Fakes;
    2. Failures; and
    2. Fearmongers trying to damage the reputation of TEAM?

    Because my experience with the system/leaders is truly quite different – I have a GOOD impression of TEAM and the leaders – so sometimes I find it sincerely hard to believe that these people are real ex-members.

    There are also conflicting accounts within these defamers… for example, in the article above, the anonymous detractor said, “This business has DESTROYED my family. I’m not a victom (sic)”… so which is which, are you a victim because your family has been DESTROYED (are you sure?? in what way??) OR are you NOT a victim?

    Hope you understand!

  3. Dan permalink
    November 17, 2010 9:07 am

    Rather interesting comments, let’s analyze them. You say that this takes too much work. Well, doesn’t anyithing worth building take work? Doesn’t a marriage take lifetime work, waht about raising kids? That takes work too. What about personal growth, doesn’t that also take work?
    You say don’t do it, don’t invest time and money on this. So you must have something better to offer, what is it. The critic only speaks of opinion and doesn’t show results. I believe in always looking at the fruit in the tree, what’s yours? In God we trust, others must have data. Are you suggesting that people should instead remain enslaved to a 45 year plan of work and no freedom? Or perhaps are you suggesting that people should invest 100s of thousands in anconventiomal type business that offers no guarantees and with no proven duplicatable system. Or are you suggesting to live on unemployment ? Or??? If you are truly a leader, then you must offer solutions not only speak of what you think the problems are. Until you have a better plan than TEAM, might be wiser to keep opinions to yourslef.

  4. Joshua Hibbel permalink
    November 26, 2010 9:43 am

    Dan – Ask yourself the same questions, but instead of pointing them at these so-called critics…point them at the team leaders.

    1. What results do the Team leaders have that you want?

    The fact is, many leaders on Team’s stage talk a big game…but they are time poor and money poor. How else do you explain the fact that so-called ‘Big’ leaders leave the business? There are a number of Emerald (Triple 100) leaders that have either left or are hanging on by a thread.

    2. What is the percentage of people that make it in Team? (That are truly job-optional)

    You can only point to a handful that are making some income, but they are not time free. Tim Marks, Chris Brady, Bill Lewis, Orrin Woodward and maybe George Guzzardo are making good amounts of money, but they also know that without them out there creating hype at SUPEROPENS and the such…their camelot would come crashing down. Moreover, what about the rest of the so-called leaders on Teams stages? Word is that a number of Team’s triple 100s are either going bankrupt or having to go back and get jobs to make ends meet, because the money is not near as good as they let you on to believe. Plus, with the switch to Monavie…peoples’s businesses are dwindling faster than ever trying to peddle a $40 bottle of juice in this economy. WAKE UP!!!

    I would much rather take $100k and put it into a franchise that I can build with my hard work and sweat vs. holding on to a pipe dream. And guess what…you can easily spend $50k over the course of 5 years in team purchasing tapes, cds, books and tickets that will get you no-where. I did it and have friends who did it. Luckily for us, we are all out of Team now and woke up. However, I would give anything to get those five years back and that $50k + back so that I could put that time and money into a ‘Conventional’ business (as you call it) that would give me a much better shot at some money vs. the scheme that Team has going on.

    Look around at your next convention that you attend. Team leaders promote the hype to keep you engaged…but the chances of anyone making it is slim. THE NUMBERS DONT LIE and if you can point to a few thousand people in team that are making money and financially free…then I will LISTEN to what you have to say. But for the time being, Team has not showed any results. Orrin has been building Amway, Quixtar and now Monavie for something like 15 years and he can only count on one hand the names of those who are making some serious cash. The rest of the 100,000+ IBOs and Distributors that he has signed up over the years in his organization never made a dime and they burned thru them at an incredible rate, sucking them dry (financially) along the way. The ODDs of making it in Team is not in your favor. PERIOD.

  5. Dave permalink
    November 29, 2010 12:27 pm

    Ex-Team, you spent $40,000 a year? I’ve been in Team for 10 years and I don’t think I’ve spent that much in all of that time. Maybe it is close, but your numbers show you are either a fool or a liar. And no, I’m not one of the big wigs, I don’t earn alot but it is significant. Tell you what, why not try to build your business without utilizing the tools, seminars, opens, or mentorship and see how you do. If the results are the same we know where the problem lies…… Everyone is under the impression this business has magic attached to it, well, it does if you apply yourself in the correct manner. This much I know for a fact, I did spent $18,000 per month in my professional business with the overhead I had, TEAM, while has not set me free yet,has enabled me to reduce my overhead by about $17,000 because of what I’ve learned throught the system. This is a serious and legit business model, but you have to learn how to play by the rules of this type of business model or it will not work.
    Joshua- you are absolutely correct in your thinking…….for someone on the left side of the quadrant. $40 for a bottle of juice has nothing to do with our business, the reason why some businesses are drying up is the same reason why many businesses are drying up…….fear. Simple fear. My conventional business which should be hurting immensly in this economy is thriving. Why? Am I much better than Iwas a few years ago? Nope. It’s simply because of the applications I have utilized in the TEAM training. Two years ago I did about $60,000 in business, last year about $65,000, this year will total about $ 300,000. My only explanation is due to relationships I have forged all based on TEAM training.

  6. switch permalink
    November 29, 2010 4:08 pm

    ….and you can honestly say that 100% of your profits and earnings came from legal claims surrounding your products?

  7. Steve Smith permalink
    November 30, 2010 4:50 pm

    Come on Dave, be real! Being in Team for 10 years you know how much it costs if you are all in. Way more than 4 grand a year. Add up the money spent on product, opens, monthly seminars, major conventions, tools, system, travel costs, etc… There is no magic attached to the business is right! Like Joshua said, point to a few thousand people that are job optional or I no listen. If you are still on the left hand side of the quadrant after 10 years with Team maybe its time to move on. You can get all the motivation and training you need from a library for free. Or Orrin’s blog for that matter!

  8. switch permalink
    December 1, 2010 2:22 pm

    That’s right Dave! 10 years in the biz and you’re still on board? Funny how you call out the liars and fools here.

    So,… on to the next subject/questions here…..From your statement here,
    Dave says-
    “Everyone is under the impression this business has magic attached to it, well, it does if you apply yourself in the correct manner.”

    By god, it must be true….if you could explain how you worked the magic working your way up through the different levels starting at STAR that would be great!?

    Or, did Orrin/Mona Vie award you a certain level right off the bat without doing any of the work coming over from Quixtar?

    WALLA! There’s your MAGIC!!!!

  9. switch permalink
    December 5, 2010 5:14 am

    OK….on to the next questions and why am I not surprised that there hasn’t been any kind of answer here?

    If you were awarded a certain level of Mona Vie when brought over from Quixtar, what gives you the right to say, the reason why people are quitting is because they’re not trying hard enough? How do you top pins know this when you haven’t even gone through the different levels yourself and done the work???

    Or…is this just an opinion that one should just keep to himself?

  10. disgusted permalink
    December 14, 2010 9:20 am

    Well, the group of so called hero’s are leaving dodge and packing up after they have burned about every bridge in town. They need to find another church to scam as well.

    Lets face it. They were found guilty of breaking the law. They lost the battle. The judge heard their case and told them they had to pay. They appealed and lost again. Read if for yourself.

    The question of if they are ethical is not debatable. They broke the law and lied to their Teams. They were found guilty. Not a good thing for people that claim to be living as Christian leaders. They have disgraced themselves and their families.

  11. MichMan permalink
    December 22, 2010 9:06 am

    Dave, please read ex-Team’s comments again. He is talking about more expenses than the $4000 per year of books/seminars and cds that you are referring to. He is counting ALL expenses, like most business people do. (the same type of expenses that you probably deduct on your taxes):

    I “invested” thousands of dollars on ‘tools’, seminars, gas, hotel meetings, major seminars, cell phone bills, promotions, monthly incentives to get around my ‘leaders’, miles on my car, tires for my car, fast food (diet programs to lose the weight), promo clothes, promo product, magazines, monthly seminars, books, etc. I reached a high level of success and was invited to attend small meetings with these ‘leaders’ often.

    BTW, if you simply drive 2000 miles per month to build the business, that is at least a $12,000 expense for the year. Now add your $4000 in bsms. Hotels, products you never would have purchased, etc. And if you are a leader, more tools, more seminars, more product, more leadership meetings.

    It adds up quickly.

  12. December 23, 2010 8:41 am

    @disgusted – Orrin recently tweeted that he’s returning to Florida after a week in Michigan. Does that mean he’s still showing the plan in the same towns TEAM is/was in, or is he moving to other cities in the state? Can you elaborate with more details about the move out of Dodge?

  13. December 27, 2010 1:39 pm

    can anyone show me a business without risks?

  14. Joecool permalink
    December 27, 2010 4:52 pm

    Amway and Mona Vie are touted as no risk businesses by certain leaders.

  15. switch permalink
    December 28, 2010 12:28 pm

    I honestly think Wil has come to the realization that there’s something behind the “biz” and is in complete denial about it.

    It’s OK Wil, baby steps to the truth. As you read more, the truth unfolds.

  16. Izzy permalink
    January 17, 2011 11:20 pm

    Ouch. I mean big ouch. I am from Halifax, and I was on Hamiliton’s team – team Kaizen and their goofy yellow towel-flags they came up with for five bucks a piece just to yell and swing over your head to show that Kaizen Power at the conventions!! LOL! Bloody idiot. The Hamilitons actually have a $2 million home in Bedford that they built, and they showed it to myself, my upline, and about three other ladies – well, just Lana, it was a “ladies’ thing” to help with dream-building. Armed with a cup of Tim Horton’s, a pen, and scribbler, I came thinking it was going to be a stragedy meeting, but Lana instead showed us around the house, it was just a structure, everything was getting built, the rooms laid out, just the walls needed to be inserted and then furnished. I remember so clearly as she was talking about getting all these “richy” things that it was a waste of money and why is she flaunting this so much? I arrived home, disappointed, knowing that I didn’t have the ability that the Hamilitons had to get this far, so who were they to rub it in our faces? I was mad.

    @Dan, I’m well-aware of this 45-year plan bullsh*t. Problem is, TEAM teaches its followers not to accept a more mundane, modest lifestyle and get FIRED UP at luxury and fame and blahblahblah. Sorry, mate, but that’s highly unethical, playing on the emotions of desperate people trying to get out of debt by taking on a risky and expensive endeavour. FEW make it to the top, only few.

    @Wil, no business is without risk, however, one must use their common sense. Those TEAM seminars are all about selling TEAM materials and getting as many people into TEAM and Monavie as possible. They’re hyped-up on emotionalism – from cheering to stage-crossing to emotional stories complete with laughter and tears.

    Any business to tells you that you have to sacrifice even your own family, go into debt to be successful, and basically pressure you into staying in longer than even careful decisions that you and your spouse make (just in case you don’t make it get out a certain time, move on, etc) is HIGHLY UNETHICAL. I was spending more on TEAM tools than I actually realised.

    Use common sense, people!

  17. Ryan Seewald - Job Free Musician. permalink
    January 20, 2011 4:26 pm

    Well of course you didn’t succeed… Look at your attitude, how everything you’re saying is just negative… How are you expecting to get great results when you are constantly zone-ing in on the negative things. It’s not a scam unless you make it one.

    The problem is, most of you are looking at this as what pain it causes you to suffer, or what YOU get out of it. Yet you think it’s selfish what TEAM leaders are doing… don’t be so blind, if you’re not going to do TEAM that ABSOLUTELY FINE, That’s GREAT even… but only if you choose to do something with your life that effects the lives of even more people, in a greater way, than you can with team. For those who are researching TEAM… Don’t even worry about whether team is a scam or not, because it’s not, Remember to qualify your sources. Learn from the successful how to be successful, not from those complaining about others being successful… you won’t get much but selfish nonsense out of them.

  18. Ryan Seewald - Job Free Musician. permalink
    January 20, 2011 4:40 pm

    Hmm.. I should also state, as an answer to the original posters question, The reason why the top leaders continue to build (and not all of them do, in fact I’ve spoken to some that don’t) is because they want to change lives. They’re on a mission to help save this world from it’s self, almost everyone at one point or another has complained about the world we live in… at least they are doing something about it. And so too am I, even if it’s not through TEAM. And even though my ventures are not threw TEAM, I will still support them and fight for them, because of their vision and heart being a lot better and bigger than anything else I’ve seen.

  19. Izzy permalink
    January 20, 2011 4:54 pm

    Ryan, you really have to be careful with these hyped-up games the marketers put out. This is really serious. TEAM is a cult, through and through, I’d advise you to read this link and see what’s actually going on.

  20. Ryan Seewald - Job Free Musician. permalink
    January 20, 2011 9:46 pm

    Can i ask you a question Izzy?
    The name cult is condescending by nature, but honestly, what is so wrong about a cult?

    I appreciate your concern for people in trying to prevent them from making mistakes. However, By those definitions described on that website, this website we are on now could, by certain means, be considered a cult. With the manipulative discussions and words and what not. Technically you are trying to manipulate me out of taking my own chances and risks at life by your concern over me and other people about to take a leap towards their hopes and dreams.

    I do respect your opinion and concern. However I have already had success in many fields as well as finances because of the information and wisdom I have gained throughout life and though these ‘cults’ of Religion and Business. You see, cults aren’t a bad thing unless they’re focus is intended towards a bad thing. TV, Radio, Books, Websites, Friends, and yourself… all have a toll on the way you think and the habits you develop… I have simply chosen which ones to be around, and if the ones I like to be around because of their great attitudes and level of thinking is considered a cult, then I am proud to be a part of it…

  21. Ryan Seewald - Job Free Musician. permalink
    January 20, 2011 10:40 pm

    Also Izzy, I do not mean to hurt anyone here or make and enemies… but look at this message posted near the top of this board.

    “It’s good to see more and more people agreeing with the fact that building a business is like building sandcastles.”

    What kind of message is this? Does this speak the words of hope or possibility. Is this uplifting or make you feel Good? Or does it just sound like “life sucks” and “don’t try to do anything great with your life, because it will never work” or even “you shouldn’t try to create your own wealth, someone needs to hand it to you, it’s the only secure way”. But then again, if someone owns a biz you have a job at, they created a biz… didn’t they? and they did it so well they also help create your wealth too! So are these big rich people bad? of course not and we all know that.

    If you don’t mind to invest in yourself some time by thinking… Think about what this website is about, and if it is leading you towards what you want out of life, and if these messages they post are helping you get there. And if it’s the case that you don’t want anything out of life, maybe this is the reason why.

    My guess is you want to have an impact on peoples lives, my guess is that you’re actually a great person and the only reason you are here is to save people from pain that they might have to undergo if they invest into certain MML businesses. My guess is that if i asked you if you had a lot of money, one of the first things you would say you would do with it is help others, family or friends in need. In fact by the way that you stated your last message, my guess is you even wish to become friends with me and have an impact on me.

    We aren’t so different, but what is it worth to you to continue to hear these negative messages about building businesses and trying to excel at life? Sure maybe MML isn’t for you, in fact I myself don’t even build MML… but if I may, I would kindly like to suggest finding something you ARE passionate about, and using it to benefit you and this world you live in.

    What do I do? I chase my Purpose with a Passion, and my Passions with a Purpose. I have never felt more alive and happy in my life. Do you feel alive, happy, exhilarated, like you were born to do the things you are doing right now with your life? I do, and I wish that everyone could get the chance to feel like this instead of being kicked down by those who gave up or are just plain selfish and wish nothing for others. I don’t believe this describes you, but I do believe that there are better ways to accomplish what you want in your life and what you want for others, than what you are doing now.

    The greatest feeling in the world is experiencing another person thanking you for changing their life. At these moments nothing you’ve ever suffered even matters anymore. If you have felt this, you will understand why I am here. I honestly don’t even look at problems with any sort of negative emotion anymore, I just search for the greatness and were I can grow… because I don’t have time to fall backwards, i’ve got lives to save and worlds to change.

    Good luck and God Bless, Izzy.
    Hope you shoot for something more worth your life than joining forces with a group that rips out peoples hope and stomps on it with negativity… how is anyone supposed to accomplish anything great if they only listened people telling them not to try? Here lies the self destructive cycle in this cults belief system… maybe it’s time to break away from this level of thinking, because you and I can both see you are worth much more than this.

  22. January 21, 2011 1:49 am

    @Ryan – Building an MLM business is very much like building sandcastles. It’s been mathematically proven that the success rate for people in MLMs is very low. Some people will succeed, yes, but most will fail.

    This does not mean, however, that all businesses are like sandcastles. Clearly, there are many other opportunities out there that are better deals than MLM (esp. those tied to Systems with tools and function expenses). The purpose of this blog isn’t to tell you what to do outside of MLM, it’s to tell you the perils and pitfalls of going “all-in” with an MLM.

  23. aurora permalink
    January 21, 2011 5:20 am

    This commenter requested that her comments be removed from this site.

  24. Ryan Seewald - Job Free Musician. permalink
    January 21, 2011 6:00 am

    haha i love how you put ‘jobless’ I’ll just let you dwell in your own negativity and assumptions. It does me no good otherwise.

    Amthrax, i beg to differ, i believe this site is a little bit more than just trying to lead people away from going all in on an MLM… take for example your number 1 thread… it’s merely a bashing against a man named Dean, whom i have never even heard of before. (or rather trying to find out who the two people are that are defending him) This has barely anything to do with what you just stated other than, from what it sounds like, there are a bunch of people that are jealous of him for his successes for ‘going all in’… maybe i’m wrong though. Maybe you’re trying to change lives and direct people on the right path… but if so, why do it with such an abundant amount of negativity surrounding nearly every subject i’ve ever read on this site over the years that it’s been up. But to be fair I have truly not read that much, only seen you pop up once in a while on google and so on.

  25. Izzy permalink
    January 21, 2011 9:48 am

    @Ryan, I was in TEAM for 7 months. It feels like I’ve been financially raped, it nearly cost me my marriage. I was not making any money all that time, and I tried as best as I could. My upline pushed me to stay or else I’ll lose my success. I maxed out all of my credit and still she had the balls to try to tell me to stay.

    Ryan, I understand you’re not trying to making enemies, you’re not insulting, and I appreciate it. But I cannot help but know what I went through, and it’s devastating. But it’s like you go to these meetings and everyone acts the same, thinks the same, dresses the same, it’s spooky. Everyone’s so happy and excited there, yet I do know people leave because they’re paying out more than what they’re taking in.

    When I left, I was so stressed out that I made myself sick. I felt so much guilt and shame for what I put my family through. I also beat myself up for not trying hard enough and for not getting any recruits. I had so many conflicting feelings. I still feel like I’m on a emotional rollercoaster, but I do know I made the right decision in leaving. I’m just barely starting to pay down the principle of my debt.

    Only a few people make it to the top, most of us either barely make a few dollars or don’t make any at all. That’s how it goes with MLMs. It’s a dog-eat-dog world there. TEAM’s fierce motivation tactics either motivate and pushes the go-getters to the top and drive the more timid and less financially stable to the ground. There’s no middle ground for those of us who haven’t got the salesman personality.

    I mean no disrespect, Ryan, just stating my experience.

  26. aurora permalink
    January 21, 2011 1:40 pm

    This commenter requested that her comments be removed from this site.

  27. aurora permalink
    January 21, 2011 1:41 pm

    This commenter requested that her comments be removed from this site.

  28. Ryan Seewald - Job Free Musician. permalink
    January 21, 2011 3:11 pm

    Aurora, i think you have me wrong, my object is not to tear peoples hopes and spirits apart… unlike what this site is all about. I would not tear Izzy apart by telling her she didn’t push hard enough or crap like that, that’s just cruel. BTW: I’m not jobless, i have a job and i am very passionate about it. I’ve used the things I’ve learned from inside of team to create my own wealth by other means. I am a Musician as it is stated. However if i so chose to stop writing music and become ‘jobless’ i would not be effected financially, This is why i am job FREE. not bound by a job.

    And Izzy, I am sorry you had to suffer through all of that… but know that that doesn’t happen to every person that joins, and you have already stated that you know that and I appreciate you for doing that. But instead of just being upset about it and continuing to stir those negative emotions that are caused by the industry by coming here and associating with some, not so happy people. Instead of focusing on those hardships and making yourself even more venerable to the pain that you once had through enduring the Team. Try to find what good has come out of it for you, what you’ve learned, where you can go now with your life now that you are capable and no longer bound by the business. Instead of just conjuring more bad feelings about it… no? is this not a bad idea? i can guarantee it will help remove any form of emotional depression that you may have. At least, better than just dwelling on it.

    Now aurora is going to step in and tell you not to listen to me saying “he’s just trying to get your hopes up! don’t listen to him! don’t try to find the good that came out of your experience and what you have learned!” … lol okay maybe not, maybe that’s a little over the top =P But you understand what I am saying.

    For me personally, I let people make their own mistakes and learn from it… now why would i do that instead of trying to save them? well i have many times tried to do just that, but you as well as i know they don’t always listen. They will do what their emotions tell them to do, if they aren’t aware of their emotions. And even sometimes when they are aware.
    So why would i just let them do something and fail? Because it creates self growth, it makes people stronger. I want what is best for people, and for people, it is best for them to grow. and overcoming obstacles or learning from their failures is the greatest way to grow in my experiences.

    If you truly believe that your time was wasted in joining Team, then it was just that, a waist of time. But if you find why it was in your life (everything happens for a reason) then you will find that it wasn’t a waist of time, and that you appreciate the struggles you had to go through because of it. I personally am grateful for all the crap i had to go through in my life, and i am also grateful to team for teaching me wisdom and a greater sense of belief in myself and for changing my life and financial situation in a great way, and for encouraging me to chase my dreams. As you can see, i defend TEAM because i want other people to exceed and win, just as i did BECAUSE of them. but if you only take the bad out of things and not the good… then you’ll never really win, you’ll just get the bad.

  29. Izzy permalink
    January 21, 2011 5:02 pm

    Well, I’ve said my piece. My credit is completely ruined now, I have virtually zero chance of improving my rating. I will *NOT* do MLM again. That’s all I have to say.

  30. Ryan Seewald - Job Free Musician. permalink
    January 21, 2011 5:09 pm

    I believe things will come around for you Izzy, just take some time and recoup. Just try to remember to look for the positives… if you can. I can assure you it will help a lot. =)

    Good luck to you Izzy, and God bless.

  31. Izzy permalink
    January 21, 2011 6:00 pm

    Mmmm? Oh ya, thanks mate….

    *turns back to my computer and slurps on some really delicious tea that I got for very cheap on sale one day…*

    Nice n’ relaxing, no stress, no biz meetings, no taking anxiety attacks while holding my BlackBerry in one hand and contact list in the other hand.

    *Big slurp*

  32. switch permalink
    January 21, 2011 6:21 pm

    Mr. Seewald-
    Stop trying to make your last ditch effort in saving your business here. It’s actually helped people see the truth, and facts surrounding the biz that you are in absolute denial about. There’s plenty of facts and truth here and other sites for one to read up on. If you’re not sure what I’m talking about, I will be glad to show you. How can you even try and make an attempt to cover up all the lies, deception, and legal problems surrounding the business here?

    Spreading illegal health claims, and testimonies down to team members, all to make a very, shallow buck. Mona Vie is nothing but fruit juice and there’s no way in hell you’ve spread the juice all on 100% legal claims. This is why they’ve been slapped once already by the FDA.

    Tell me you’ve kept track of everyone’s “plan showing” and how they’ve spread the juice in order for you to become “job free”?

  33. Ryan Seewald - Job Free Musician. permalink
    January 21, 2011 6:24 pm

    xD haha!! Nice Izzy. Dang… now i’m thirsty. and yeah i know how those calls are, i remember those. Although I’m really confidant in my self now so, making calls is really no big deal anymore… i used to have an anxiety attack over calling to order pizza! lol
    So what are you doing now Izzy? if you don’t mind me asking. I mean with your life and for a job and such.

  34. Izzy permalink
    January 21, 2011 6:38 pm

    Well, first off, I make my own professional-style pizza – pizza stone and everything, tastes quite lovely, actually, loaded with fresh veggies and cheese, sometimes meats, nice bit of herbs/spices, soft crust, oh ya, baby! *has a foodgasm*

    I’m on welfare for 3 disabilities (and believe me, I looked for work and attended employment workshops to no avail) Hubby works part-time as a school crossing guards. We have 2 lovely children in elementary school. We do many, many things – outdoor things – as a family, including winter barbeques, skating, walking in the woods, taking pictures, and not attending TEAM meetings.

    I’m trying my hand at writing, and researching frugal living (living close to Mother Nature) That means no autoships of snake oil, paying off my debt, learning to skin small animals for food and perhaps drawstring bags and food.

    Sometimes the simple things in life brings out the most pleasure 🙂 And if I dare make a health claim, I will say eat plenty of fruits and vegetables, get plenty of fresh air, and exercise every day, I hardly think Mother Nature will sue me for this health claim! 😀

  35. Ryan Seewald - Job Free Musician. permalink
    January 21, 2011 6:54 pm

    Twitch, it seems that you’ve not really read much of my posts. I for one don’t indulge myself in selling juice or building TEAM. Although i think people should be able to say what they feel is true… I mean, if someone gets cured of cancer or something like that, it doesn’t hurt for them to tell the reason why they believe it happened… it’s really not right for the FDA to stop people from the freedom of speech, ideas, or beliefs.

    I have had success through other means than MLM, but the concepts and principles that the TEAM teaches are real and even more helpful than what you do here by convincing people to not even get involved to see those principals and truths.

    So your assumption that i am trying to save my business her is false, i’m trying to save those who want a shot at success and happiness from not allowing themselves to take a risk because of the things you say here. because it is not I who is in denial.

    You can talk bad about product all you want, it doesn’t offend me any, because the true issue here is people. Failing is OKAY!! Get over it already, move on with your life. And stop insulting people for wanting others to succeed. I have already said much more on this subject in my other posts. I’m not trying to change the facts (whether they are true or not, or if they were true a long time ago but since have been changed their ways) i’m simply trying to allow you to see a different perception on life… because changing how i view life has created my emotional, spiritual, relationship, and financial wealth.

  36. Ryan Seewald - Job Free Musician. permalink
    January 21, 2011 7:00 pm

    haha, xD i’m pretty sure Mother nature is gunna sue you. She’s quite wealthy in leaves and is gunna buy a really good lawyer. you better take your claim back!

    holy crap that pizza sounds delicious, now i’m thirsty AND Hungry.

    That’s really awesome, sounds like you are really close in tune with nature. There really is a bit of magic and sparkle in it. Have you ever been to Colorado? The mountains are AMAZING!

  37. Izzy permalink
    January 21, 2011 9:22 pm

    Nerp, jes’ good ol’ Nova Scotia here! 🙂

  38. Ryan Seewald - Job Free Musician. permalink
    January 21, 2011 9:53 pm

    oh yes that’s right, you’re from Canada, i should have remembered that from your previous posts… sorry about that. ^^;

  39. aurora permalink
    January 22, 2011 5:44 am

    This commenter requested that her comments be removed from this site.

  40. switch permalink
    January 22, 2011 6:15 am

    Seewald says-
    “Although i think people should be able to say what they feel is true… I mean, if someone gets cured of cancer or something like that, it doesn’t hurt for them to tell the reason why they believe it happened… it’s really not right for the FDA to stop people from the freedom of speech, ideas, or beliefs.”

    …..this statement in itself proves to all of us, you are making profits/bonuses through illegal claims and testimonies for YOURSELF to become “job free”. Your selfish ways to help spread the deception your biz lies on is quite clear and it’s identical to what happened in my case. Beating around the bush around the truth is quite the norm for Teamers and Orrin’s empire.

    This is why I left sir.

  41. Izzy permalink
    January 22, 2011 12:04 pm

    I wish the FTC and American Gov’t would launch a full investigation into the Woodward, Brady, & Dickie trio as well as the TEAM organisation. It’s really not fair that TEAM makes it sound so easy when it’s not easy. It’s not fair that our emotions are used to keep us going (in the meetings) instead of our intellect. It’s not fair that we were discouraged from doing research because of “the negativity that may be out there” type thing.

    And to be really practical, fruit juice doesn’t cure cancer. Cancer is a stubborn, complex disease that requires rigourious medical intervention in order to bring it into remission, then in some cases, a cure. Glucosamine doesn’t always help with joint pain, either. A wikipedia article even questions glucosamine as a main treatment, as there’s really no proven studies on it.

  42. Ryan Seewald - Job Free Musician. permalink
    January 22, 2011 1:13 pm

    You can all pick Fights with me all you want. It doesn’t really tare at my emotions at all. But i can see it does with yours.

    Izzy, haha, I was just putting an example out there… i dono if anyone ever said it cured cancer. But yeah some people do tell you it’s easy in the team, my personal team told me it was going to be tough. lol. I guess it depends a lot on who you’re under and who you’re listening to. But personally i only attend meetings and the like for the wisdom i can gain.

    My main concern here is apparently not what I made you to believe.

    Look at how much work and research Amthrax puts into this place, how much you guys put in. It’s astonishing. I mean, you guys keep up on all the leaders blogs and report back to here frequently. You guys put time and thought into your posts. What I am saying is you guys are good at what you do. You guys are fully capable of great things and of great impact. Especially you Amthrax. Amdroid, you’re pretty cool too… your posts and responses are very well thought out and you’re not unwilling to listen and think. And to answer your question, yes, i once was a hypocrite… but i no longer gossip, so i am no longer a hypocrite.

    Aurora, man! are you Fierce. you sure know how to throw some punches. … Of course no one really likes to get punched in the face, lol ^^; . But what i’m saying is you’ve got fire, passion, you are definitely set on your ways and you will not bow to any man.

    Joecool, we haven’t talked much… but I read a little about you. You left an MLM because one of your ‘leaders’ told you to basically drop your wife. Family comes before business, any one that suggest anything of the opposite nature is sick disgusting! I give you mad props for picking up your bags and leaving. On that note though, what one man in the biz says to you doesn’t necessarily speaks for the whole businesses ideals… but you can be assured I would have never asked anything from him again. That guy didn’t deserve you in his business anyhow.

    The nature of MLMs isn’t evil. Yes there are some evil people who have been involved… but that goes true with everything. MLMs can potentially be a great business model.And many of its concepts are great for any business really. MLMs HAS made some people free and has brought great things to peoples lives.

    I’m not really in any form of argument with you guys, i’m just trying to let you understand that you are capable of something WAY more productive.

    And I know you’re not just going to have a huge change of mind because of something some random stranger came in and said… some stranger that happens to sound like any other person that has ever come here that is not on your side or wanting to take down MLMs.

    However i’m probably one of the only people to ever come here and post my real name… I am not a coward. What I say has true meaning. I’m not trying to shoot you down or tell you all that what you have been doing here is stupid or has been a complete waist of time. But what i am saying is i believe you are ALL capable of something more.

    Just something to end with. Since a lot of you are moral and good standing people. Whether you believe in God or not. Just imagine this scenario. You have died and gone to heaven, God says to you “Good job my faithful servant.” “You have destroyed the MLMs that have been spreading truth about me and Christianity, putting hope back into peoples lives, made many people become happier and more emotionally self controlled, built up the characters of (not all but) many. and have allowed many to grow and become better with people, treat the spouses more purely, and spend more quality time with their children… all at the possible risk/cost of a weakened finances, but also many times a heightened finances as well.”

    Now of course that sounds ridiculous, God would never commend you for ruining something that was good, holy, and helpful to this world and the people in it. And of course not all MLM’s do that… but Team does, and I am sure some others might too. But you know from what i just said that, this really isn’t that great of a cause… this really isn’t that morally uplifting for the world… And that you are all capable of so much more. Do something awesome with your lives, don’t just die with nothing really great accomplished because you spent your whole life trying to tear something down that caused you some grief, but also caused many others great happiness.

    You are all capable of so much more.

  43. Izzy permalink
    January 22, 2011 1:43 pm

    Actually, everyone calls me Izzy in real life 🙂

  44. Ryan Seewald - Job Free Musician. permalink
    January 22, 2011 2:42 pm

    Haha Sorry Izzy~ … Izzy isn’t a coward either!! 😛

  45. Izzy permalink
    January 22, 2011 3:03 pm

    I think everyone has their rights if they want to reveal their true names or not, I only give my commonly-used name on a public forum. It’s not necessarily about cowardice. Some of us have been threatened by their former TEAM mates, and that’s quite normal for anyone leaving an organisation that depends on movitvation, and also cults. The way TEAM is set up, it’s almost stepping into a spiritual atmosphere, many TEAM members are very fanatic in thier beleifs. Ain’t saying that EVERYONE is like that, just that many people are, from what I witnessed. I’ve had my upline correct me on my “terminology” telling me I’m not going to work, I”m going to a business meeting, that sort of thing. She did that constantly. Even after I left TEAM she told me to listen to the CDs and read the book. Nope. No thanks it was too painful for me.

    In MLMs only a few people succeed, The lower guys don’t succeed, or just remain as customers of the products. For example in Melaleuca I only purchase household necessities for about a hundred bucks per month. I”m not selling the stuff. I’m not being pressured into becomeing a “Marketing Executive” either. That’s how it should be. But my point is that TEAM is pushing everyone to go to meetings and listen to CDs and all that and what if we don’t want to? We shouldn’t have to be subjected to pressure. Why couldn’t I just be satisfied in just drinking the juice, if I wanted to? I cut back my autoship only to be met with strong disapproval from my upline. That is pressure. Most MLMs only move ahead with pressure tactics, that’s not ethical. If I don’t want to buy something, or go to a meeting, I shouldn’t have to. And furthermore, I’m staying WITHIN my budget as opposed to creeping over and buying tools. I should be allowed to stay WITHIN my budget.

    Anyway, I’m ranting again, LOL. But I want to say that we are individuals, we do have our reasons for why we do things, and we should be free to do what we want with our lives. We all have the right to speak out, as well.

  46. Ryan Seewald - Job Free Musician. permalink
    January 22, 2011 3:12 pm

    Agreed. My group never pressured me, nor have i personally witnessed anyone being pressured like that, it’s a shame that they did that to you. I guess it depends a lot on who you get involved with, not necessarily MLMs as a whole… huh?

  47. Izzy permalink
    January 22, 2011 3:24 pm

    I will grudgingly agree there there are exceptions to each rule/case. Just like in Nazi Germany, there were German SS soldiers who helped Jews to escape, others may have looked away. Oscar Shindler was another good guy, helping save about 2,000 Jews from extermination under the guise of wanting workers for his ammunitions business.

  48. Ryan Seewald - Job Free Musician. permalink
    January 22, 2011 3:38 pm

    =) Right~ So our real problem here is not with MLMs, it’s with people. Of course we shouldn’t try to hurt or attack people… but MLMs are made up of people, so it’s really not nice to try to destroy that either. Both of those options are kind of evil. So what can we do to solve the true problem here? Change people. or just ignore it. but that doesn’t’ really SOLVE it, it just removes you from the playing field. Team tries to change the way people think, obviously they aren’t 100% successful, and even the leaders have their faults… What will you do? (sorry for being so serious)

  49. Izzy permalink
    January 22, 2011 3:46 pm

    You must agree that TEAM expenses can creep up on you, right? especially for someone who is low-income?

  50. Ryan Seewald - Job Free Musician. permalink
    January 22, 2011 3:50 pm

    Yep this is true. Agreed =) But, i think the wisdom i’ve gained through it all out ways the expenses. But yes, you are absolutely correct.

  51. aurora permalink
    January 22, 2011 5:50 pm

    This commenter requested that her comments be removed from this site.

  52. Ryan Seewald - Job Free Musician. permalink
    January 22, 2011 5:52 pm

    ^^; wrong yet again Aurora.

  53. January 23, 2011 1:09 am

    @Ryan – I’m now moderating your comments. Stay on topic and don’t post long-winded, off-topic comments.

  54. Ryan Seewald - Job Free Musician. permalink
    January 23, 2011 2:06 am

    Sure thing mate… But i don’t have any negative TEAM experiences… so i can’t really post anything on this topic. Other than the conversation i had with Izzy, which went pretty well.
    Thanks for reading them though Amthrax. =)

  55. disgusted permalink
    January 24, 2011 9:13 am

    “I wish the FTC and American Gov’t would launch a full investigation into the Woodward, Brady, & Dickie trio as well as the TEAM organisation. ”

    The trio appears to have fallen apart, I am not sure how far. The Dickie’s appear to be out and doing other things.

    The only thing I notice is, that the Dickie’s didn’t get sued, and they didn’t get out of town, like the cowards.

    I sure would have liked to be a fly on the wall when that happened!

  56. Matthew R. permalink
    January 26, 2011 6:21 pm

    Disgusted – you are right, the Dickey’s did not get sued and they did not leave town as they had nothing to run from. I believe it has been over a year since they were associated in any way with team. just goes to show how everyone eventually leaves the closer they get to Orrin and Chris. Orrin Woodward can’t keep any friends if his life depended on it….they all wake up and realize that he only uses people for his personal gain.

  57. Izzy permalink
    January 26, 2011 9:05 pm

    It’s under a year still, because in the middle of last year Robert Dickie was still on the website, but I just checked and some Hallstrand fella took his place. I wonder if there’s any contact between the Woodwards and Rev Dickie?

  58. Dororthy permalink
    January 28, 2011 6:56 pm

    This commenter requested that her comments be removed from this site.

  59. William permalink
    January 31, 2011 8:31 am

    There are so many flaws with the Team/MonaVie business model. It does not surprise me one bit that people are leaving Team and Orrin Woodward. I truly feel that the Team/MonaVie business does more harm in people’s lives than good. Too many people are losing money and not making any financial gains as mentioned in the 2-5 year plan. I have a friend who calculated that he spent over $70,000 in tools, tickets and books (along with overpriced Q and MonaVie juice) over the years and his family never reached any significant income levels.

    Team led them to believe that it was ‘his fault’ for not making money. The system taught him to feel bad about himself as if he was the reason his business was not growing and that he was not following the system closely enough. (Nevermind the fact that it seems to be the system that is broken as less than %1 of the people that sign up in team ever make any money.)

    So, my friend added up all of his receipts over the past 7 years and realizes that he spent over 70K with zero profit coming back to him, and all the while he blamed himself as his upline told him he wasn’t following the system closely enough. He needed to listen to more CDs, show more plans etc. WHICH, HE DID!! He finally woke up and realized that he did EVERYTHING the system told him to do and yet he still didn’t attain any growth with his business and the same is true for everyone in his team.
    I read comments from ‘Pro’ Team people defending Orrin and defending Team by blasting individuals who quit as being ‘Negative, Quitters, Giving up on their Dream, Not meant to be a Leader, Didn’t put the work in to achieve freedom etc.’ They need to stop and ask themselves two simple questions: How long have I been in the business? and How much money am I making? If the business is indeed a two to five year plan, then ask yourself why you are not making any money after being involved for that long or longer. Is it really because you are not working the business hard enough!?! That is complete non-sense.
    Think About It…Orrin Woodward and the Team system asks you to do the following to reach success:

    1) Get on system (Book of the month, CDs of the Week
2) Attend Monthly Seminars
3)Attend Leadership Conventions
4) Attend all Open Meetings
5) Show 15 plans a month to new prospects
6) and buy X amount of product from MonaVie etc.)
    What else am I missing from this list?

    The point is, my friend did this for 7 years faithfully. Made cold contacts religiously. Showed the plan, followed thru and repeated the process and all he did was waste money and lost time that he could have spent with his kids and wife. He DID THE WORK and IT DID NOT WORK!! If people are honest with themselves, 99.5% of the people involved with Team or MonaVie will realize their experience is similar…spending their time and money following the so-called system (Path to Freedom), yet never reaching any success. Most will keep holding on though as they are taught to believe if they WORK A LITTLE HARDER then they will have the results. They beat themselves up mentally for not making it work, when the entire time they were indeed putting in the hours, investing the money, and following the system. It is sad that they are holding on to a ‘False Dream’ that Orrin has sold them, as they will never reach it. People aren’t being lazy that stay in for 7 years. Sure you get some that sign up and never really get started, however, the people that are sold on the hype, the dream and false hope, follow the system closely, and put in an HONEST effort, however, they were chasing down a dream in a broken vehicle as the business is flawed and simply does not work!!

    I am tired of watching people spend thousands of dollars and time away from their families while being mislead by Orrin Woodward, Chris Brady and other Team Leaders who are promoting this as a viable business opportunity. If you are currently an independent business owner (IBO) on Team / MonaVie and hoping for a better life, honestly ask yourself “How is it GOING?” If you pull the blinders off you will see how much time/money and effort you are putting in and any businessman should be able to instantly see that the “RESULTS ARE NOT WORTH THE INVESTMENT!!”

    You will make your life better by spending more quality time with your spouse, mentoring your kids, reading leadership books by REAL leaders that you can pick up at Barnes and Nobles and Borders for way less the cost than what team is charging vs. following Orrin and his plan for success. His plan will suck you dry mentally, emotionally, monetarily, and your relationships will suffer with your family due to neglect and putting too much energy into a vehicle that has broke down!

  60. Joecool permalink
    January 31, 2011 5:13 pm

    Sounds like a splitting image of Amway and WWDB with a different product.

  61. pickme permalink
    January 31, 2011 7:15 pm

    Exactly, William!
    @Joe cool: no, its worse, much worse. Someones Integrity is on the line.

    In Team, some strongly encourage people to reach new pin levels in MV.

    Before I go into any detail about this, let me just say that this was my view after being in it for a few years, and yes, reaching some mighty pin levels in MV. I am not writing any of this because I am a bitter angry person who got burned. I left because I just could not, at any cost, compromise my own integrity anymore. As I moved up, I became part of the leadership crowd. I was able to see firsthand some true colors in people I had once admired. I thank God for my discernment. This is my view. If yours is different, you have that right.

    The Skinny on The power player plan: Buy the top 50 pack $$$ be on the power player system $$ (more cd’s etc), be on SOT (tickets to seminar auto ship $$ even more if you have a spouse), go to every Tuesday meeting $$, keep in mind that you will need to have 2 binary legs to achieve this. Team is very adamant about not starting another leg unless one has helped achieve at least 10 deep on your first leg. Oh yeah, if one breaks this golden rule, surely, your upline will have a chat with you to make sure you understand why Team builds the way they do. Also, one needs to have a certain number of people on the “system” (books and CD”s) and on the SOT.

    OK folks…do some math’s not just about showing the plan 15 X a month like they tell you one does have to convince the new people to spend more and more…oh, did I forget to mention they also need to purchase the juice?

    Well, let me also say that some may constantly tell you,” this is the building block of the business. If one does all of this, you will reach you goals and dreams. Not just material wealth but wisdom and health! If one is doing all of the steps and still not cutting cutting it..sorry dude, obviously you have personal walls you need to break down and work at it because God will only give you what you can ‘ up…good cycle to keep them working… the reality is: not too many get in to build a business, some just wanna drink the juice and that makes you dreams and goals harder to attain on the team plan…

    False edification is another way. The party of they will buy the bottom guy a pin level for two reasons; to get him to go across stage so hundreds will cheer him on as well as help themselves to a new level. So the new guys walk across the stage with the lights flashing and music and everyone is cheering for their team. The rush that new guy feels is amazing. Everyone has done it, everyone knows the feeling. So get them all stoked up on some false edification and keep encouraging him by stroking their ego because it works.. Like a dog back to his vomit…

    I feel certain the stretch and secure training, constitutes a pyramid scheme…ehmmm. Maybe that is why MV became obstinate about having to sign a waiver to let others place HUGE orders through yout number. Perhaps that is why MV came out with some new rules last year on keeping track of retail. I wonder if you earn commissions from MV with no retail sales, that would look fishy on your taxes..ehmmm… ooops, off on a tangent…
    It’s all in the head people. And the guy at the top knows it and your up-line knows it. They all play the game.

    Folks make a lot of money off the brainwashing, and you my friend, will get none of the money or very little and a lot of brainwashing.

    Team has their own way of doing business and they never really tell you everything straight up in the beginning. It is a slow indoctrination. New people are generally very confused between the whole team way and MV. If one doesn’t understand, they will ask you if you heard a certain starts there. “Never give them too much information”, they say. “Let the tools do the work. Think of it like going to school. It’s your business; you will get more out of it if you learn to work for it.

    You do not need team to build a MV business. Period.
    So, that’s a start…Next time we will take a look of the “New Vision” of Team. Their handy dandy little back of plan cuz they just aren’t reaching their goals….why? why do you think?
    You are absolutely correct, (guy at the top who is a fierce all knowing leader), by telling everyone to read, read, read..because “there is too much information out there for anyone to be stupid. All great leaders read!”

    With that, I implore everyone who is searching or comes across this, do your reading and your research…it’s not at all what you think it is. You will soon see a lot of old team members comin out of their closets!!

    Just remember, there is NOTHING new under the sun. It has all been done before. It Just looks all shiny and new.

  62. Ryan Seewald - Job Free Musician. permalink
    January 31, 2011 7:35 pm

    Dorothy… Remember that people are made by God, out of Gods love, and in Gods image. We weren’t meant to treat them like dirt, we are not meant to treat any of Gods creations in vain. You call me an enemy and a fool. I don’t consider you as either of those. Is it truly I who is not understanding of God? I respect his highest creation above everything, humans, except for God himself. However, it doesn’t seem to me that you do.

    The team isn’t afraid to speak the gospel. In fact, I was just at their Major and they did quite often, on Friday Saturday and especially on Sunday. How are you so disgusted when you know nothing about TEAM… maybe it’s just that. How can you Gossip about Orrin Woodward and at the same time say you are a chaser of God, when Orrin is one of Gods people, and also that you know nothing about him, all of your remarks are assumptions.

    You know nothing about the Team, in fact all of your comments are so wrong. Their vision isn’t to be wealthy. Their vision is to help people and to change the world in the Financial realm as well as the realm of Faith, Wisdom, Family, Friends, and all Relationships, and in Leadership. Their mission is to make thousands of leaders willing to stand for something and help to make better this world, Whether trough TEAM or Otherwise.

  63. Dorothy permalink
    January 31, 2011 10:17 pm

    This commenter requested that her comments be removed from this site.

  64. aurora permalink
    February 1, 2011 4:05 am

    This commenter requested that her comments be removed from this site.

  65. Izzy permalink
    February 1, 2011 4:23 am

    Looks like someone did Hajj in Mecca…no, wait……..;-)

    Ryan, boy are you alllllll FIRED UP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! after your yearly pilgrammage to the Big Major in St Louis. I learned stuff about G-d at a religious institution this weekend as well – but it wasn’t at a business function 😉

    Many of us are allllll FED UP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! of losing our spouses, our homes, our dignity, our friends, our money, our credit ratings, our families. I am absolutely humiliated of my actions, what I put my family through…Ryan, my freaking grocery money went to trying to save up for that big fat trip to St Louis back in 2010. Luckily Hubby put his foot down and said no. I then took the money, went to the store and bought some meats that were on sale. This is really serious. I was spending money without even realising how much I was spending.

    Please, Ryan, seriously do some research, ok? I wish and pray your eyes would be open to this cult. I’m also wondering if everyone had on those red Orrin ties on? And what about those brown team suits for the ladies? Just wondering…

  66. aurora permalink
    February 1, 2011 6:30 am

    This commenter requested that her comments be removed from this site.

  67. Vogel permalink
    February 1, 2011 8:49 am

    Jobless said: “Although i think people should be able to say what they feel is true… I mean, if someone gets cured of cancer or something like that, it doesn’t hurt for them to tell the reason why they believe it happened… it’s really not right for the FDA to stop people from the freedom of speech, ideas, or beliefs.”

    That’s a truly pathetic response. The issue here is much simpler than you make it out to be. Individuals are prohibited from making unfounded claims about a product’s medical benefits if and only if they have a financial interest in the product they are promoting. The wisdom of preventing manufacturers from fraudulently claiming that inert products have cancer-curing products should be obvious. It’s to protect the welfare of the public. It defies logic that you are essentially arguing on behalf of the right of some con artist to sell your grandma cat pee to cure her cancer. If that doesn’t concern you, then you have failed in your civic duty. The days of traveling snakeoil caravans have long since passed. Your thinking represents a step backwards into the darkness.

    Jobless said: “I have had success through other means than MLM, but the concepts and principles that the TEAM teaches are real and even more helpful than what you do here by convincing people to not even get involved to see those principals and truths.”

    The concepts that TEAM teaches are feeble, shallow, unoriginal, hackneyed, self-serving, and utterly inane. That kind of dime-store wisdom isn’t doing anyone any favors. I’ve seen one story after another from people describing the manipulative tactics used by TEAM to financially enrich the perpetrators at the top of the pyramid. Convincing people to not join TEAM is not only sensible, it’s the responsible and compassionate thing to do. TEAM is inflicting financial and spiritual ruin on many people — and for what ultimate reason? Money, nothing more.

    Jobless said: “So your assumption that i am trying to save my business her is false, i’m trying to save those who want a shot at success and happiness from not allowing themselves to take a risk because of the things you say here. because it is not I who is in denial.”

    This altruistic picture you are trying to paint is an illusion. There are many paths to success and happiness, but you are not promoting those; your only interest is in promoting TEAM, and that’s blatantly self-serving. And, yes, you are clearly in denial

    Jobless said: “You can talk bad about product all you want, it doesn’t offend me any, because the true issue here is people.”

    The lack of value of the product is paramount here and yet you conveniently brush it aside as though it were entirely inconsequential. However, the juice is the cornerstone of the business. Take the juice away, and the TEAM pyramid topples. The evidence proving the juice’s lack of value is unimpeachable, and yet you ignore it and continue to defend the TEAM organization, which is built on a substandard, scandalously overpriced, deceptively-marketed juice product. How does that represent success, unless you define success as profit at any cost?

    Jobless said: “Joecool, we haven’t talked much… but I read a little about you. You left an MLM because one of your ‘leaders’ told you to basically drop your wife. Family comes before business, any one that suggest anything of the opposite nature is sick disgusting!”

    From the experiences of TEAM members that I have been privy to, family (other than their own) is an afterthought to the leaders; window dressing…lip service. When the chips are down, we have all seen that TEAM expects family to take a back seat to the business. It’s all about the money and nothing else.

    Jobless said: “The nature of MLMs isn’t evil. Yes there are some evil people who have been involved… but that goes true with everything. MLMs can potentially be a great business model.And many of its concepts are great for any business really.”

    The nature of YOUR MLM is EVIL. Stop trying to deflect attention away from that fact by bringing other MLMs into the picture (and incidentally, enough of them are sufficiently evil that your mentioning them does not help TEAM’s case one iota).

    Jobless said: “I’m not really in any form of argument with you guys, i’m just trying to let you understand that you are capable of something WAY more productive.”

    Well, yes you are arguing; you’re just not doing a very good job because you have no valid arguments by which to defend TEAM. That’s why you avoid the issues and instead post all this tripe about how TEAM loves everybody and wants everybody to succeed. BS!!!

    Jobless said: “Just imagine this scenario. You have died and gone to heaven, God says to you ‘Good job my faithful servant. You have destroyed the MLMs that have been spreading truth about me and Christianity, putting hope back into peoples lives, made many people become happier and more emotionally self controlled, built up the characters of (not all but) many. and have allowed many to grow and become better with people, treat the spouses more purely, and spend more quality time with their children… all at the possible risk/cost of a weakened finances, but also many times a heightened finances as well.’ Now of course that sounds ridiculous, God would never commend you for ruining something that was good, holy, and helpful to this world and the people in it.”

    You’re an intellectually dishonest blasphemer son. That scenario you whipped up presupposes that God believes that MLMs are good because they spread Christianity. Need I point out the deficiencies in that line of reasoning? It essentially abides by any form of dishonesty and impropriety as long as it spreads Christianity; it falsely sanctifies TEAM, and it ignores the ruinous consequences that TEAM has had (emotionally, financially, and spiritually) on so many of its victims. Your self-serving callousness is truly astonishing. God is not a TEAM sales tool so please avoid invoking his name on TEAMs behalf.

    Jobless said: “Right~ So our real problem here is not with MLMs, it’s with people. Of course we shouldn’t try to hurt or attack people… but MLMs are made up of people, so it’s really not nice to try to destroy that either. Both of those options are kind of evil. So what can we do to solve the true problem here? Dorothy… Remember that people are made by God, out of Gods love, and in Gods image. We weren’t meant to treat them like dirt, we are not meant to treat any of Gods creations in vain. You call me an enemy and a fool.”

    Terrorist organizations, drug cartels, and child porn rings are made of people too. Does that mean we shouldn’t attack them either? Your moral reasoning is sadly deficient. You are essentially extolling people to remain silent no matter what depraved transgression they may witness. A good person does not go limp in such a situation; they speak out on behalf of righteousness and defend the interests of the weak and innocent. THAT is the Christian thing to do.

    Jobless said: “The team isn’t afraid to speak the gospel. In fact, I was just at their Major and they did quite often, on Friday Saturday and especially on Sunday. How are you so disgusted when you know nothing about TEAM…”

    Appealing to Christianity in this way might be appropriate if your business is selling crucifixes or shroud of Turin reproductions, but it’s wholly inappropriate for selling juice. If the goal is to maximize the potential market for your juice, then the conduct you just described would be counterproductive. You are not selling “Christian juice”; just juice. Why intentionally alienate non-Christians? The underlying reason is rather obvious; religious guilt is being used as a lever to manipulate Christians into joining and staying in TEAM. That’s simply inexcusable, and in my opinion, blasphemous. Let’s not ignore the facts – TEAM is a pyramid scheme selling worthless juice; I fail to see any religious justification for such exploitation.

    Jobless said: “You know nothing about the Team, in fact all of your comments are so wrong. Their vision isn’t to be wealthy. Their vision is to help people and to change the world in the Financial realm as well as the realm of Faith, Wisdom, Family, Friends, and all Relationships, and in Leadership. Their mission is to make thousands of leaders willing to stand for something and help to make better this world,”

    Hyperbole much? Collectively, we know a lot about TEAM; probably more than you know. If Woodwart’s goal is to help people, then he has failed miserably, unless by “people” he means himself and a few of his dishonest sacrilegious friends.

  68. Amy S. permalink
    February 1, 2011 2:26 pm

    Matthew R.: How did you find out that Pastor Robert L. Dickie is no longer associated with TEAM? Any more info on this??

    Here is Pastor Robert L. Dickie’s website…

    Check out the Staff & Leadership still associated with TEAM:
    Mark (&Jenn) Paul – Property Chairman – Blue Diamonds in TEAM Monavie
    Matt (&Cheryl) Abraham – Deacon – Leaders on TEAM Monavie
    Matt Zimmerman – Deacon – Leader on TEAM Monavie
    Don (&Chris) Freeze – Elder – Emeralds on TEAM Monavie

    I’d say Pastor Robert L Dickie is so far entrenched with TEAM Monavie and Orrin that he’s build his ENTIRE ministry on the back of the TEAM. He’s no different than the ‘leaders’ on TEAM. He sees himself as ‘changing’ the lifes of thousands of people… REAL Pastor’s see him as taking advantage of thousands of people to serve a ‘few’. My husband is a Baptist Pastor with over 700 folks in his congregation and made a great point: Dexter Yager the kingpin from AMWAY used AMWAY as a front to build a community to sell its tools to generate his wealth. TEAM is using MONAVIE as a front to build a community to sell its tools. Pastor Robert L Dickie is using TEAM as a front to build his community to sell GOD. How is this morally right??

  69. Ryan Seewald - Job Free Musician. permalink
    February 1, 2011 9:34 pm

    Vogel – “This altruistic picture you are trying to paint is an illusion. There are many paths to success and happiness, but you are not promoting those; your only interest is in promoting TEAM, and that’s blatantly self-serving. And, yes, you are clearly in denial”

    Absolutely wrong, There is no illusion, and if you had thoroughly read all my posts you would have seen that I am not being subjective to team. In fact encouraged you guys here to go do something besides trying to get revenge… remember that revenge is a Sin.

    I find it funny how you make things up about me.

    “Jobless said: “I’m not really in any form of argument with you guys, i’m just trying to let you understand that you are capable of something WAY more productive.””

    Why did you dodge the true issue at hand here and go directly into attacking TEAM once again?…

    “A good person does not go limp in such a situation; they speak out on behalf of righteousness and defend the interests of the weak and innocent. THAT is the Christian thing to do.”

    Yep… and THAT is why I am here. because you speak of holy as sin.

    and wow at this next statement:
    “Appealing to Christianity in this way might be appropriate if your business is selling crucifixes or shroud of Turin reproductions, but it’s wholly inappropriate for selling juice…”

    I thought that God should be in all things to keep them holy, but from what you said, you stated that God should be left out of business and be cast aside as something unrelated… are you sure TEAM is the evil one here? From that statement it sounds to me that it’s you.

    I don’t have time to explain to you every single detail about the world and how it works, but I stand strongly by all that I have said here.
    So I’m going to say something that will be the end of all arguments here.

    All of you here are here Specifically for the reason that Vogel said. As i had been here for a short time and talked with several of you. I came in under the presumption, and giving you all the benefit of the doubt, that you were here to help people make the correct decisions. However, under further inspection, I have come to find that it was, just as vogel noted, under the drive of your own emotions. You all state you have been emotionally damaged by some MLM. Do you not realize that your own emotions are in YOUR control, and if you’re damaged it is your own fault. you can take any MLM at your own pace, no mater if anyone else pushes you. you can always leave if you will it. All in all it is your own fault for everything you’re so upset about. You’ve made the wrong choices and you’re blaming your pain on other cooperation… Forgive me for calling you out, but sometimes we all need to get punched in the face with our weaknesses so we can move on.

    Amthrax is now Moderating my posts under the excuse that “they were too long” however looking at all of your posts recently, they are just as long if not even longer from some of you. It has nothing to do with whether it was on topic or not either, since i’ve seen a lot of you getting off topic as well.

    Amthrax tried to moderate me because he saw me as a threat to this community, slowly changing and shaping the culture was absolutely possible over time, as I had proven in less than 3 days. Frankly I don’t care to continue, those who chose to live a better life will, those who choose to wallow in their emotions will, it’s too bad for them if they are too stubborn to move on. All you guys do is Gossip, and yet you have the gull to try to call me out as protecting evil? I do not gossip, but i am willing to call you out in front of you… because it is better than just letting you sit there in a downward spiral because no one told you it could be different.

    And if you don’t believe that is why Amthrax is moderating me, let him speak for himself… but if you will allow him to speak for himself… then you must allow people to speak for themselves… including MLMs. if you don’t like the fact that i made an claim against your leader, then maybe you should stop making claims against others. Besides it doesn’t do anyone good for you to… really, it doesn’t. Especially if all people see you for is a bunch of negative, unhappy, emotionally stuck, people with no character… because that’s what you make yourselves look like. Sorry but it’s true… maybe not all of you, and you’re all capable of so much more. but if you refuse to move on it’s your own loss. and your own fault, stop blaming everything on others.

    Good luck to you all, sorry i didn’t have the drive to get to all of your comments.
    God bless.

    Ryan Seewald – “Jobless” =)

  70. aurora permalink
    February 2, 2011 4:40 am

    This commenter requested that her comments be removed from this site.

  71. Ryan Seewald - Job Free Musician. permalink
    February 2, 2011 7:25 pm

    btw aurora… yes… i have done just that before “Can you just hear ‘jobless wonder’ or any other IBO prospecting by telling people that they, too, can join this marvelous group just to become better people and save the world. *gag*” And it worked =) heh.

    “Then ‘jobless wonder’ tries to scare us with, “Well, I’ve told dino about you dirty rascals.””
    Wow… really? i seriously never said that nor do i ever even speak of this dino guy… you certainly hate people don’t you? enough to make up things about them. hm, nothing you say is credible from here on out.

  72. Ryan Seewald - Job Free Musician. permalink
    February 2, 2011 7:36 pm

    one last thing then i’m out. I probably won’t be coming back for a while since I have no need to defend myself, you’re wrongs and lies speak for them selves if you so choose to attack me.

    as i stated before:

    “I do not gossip, but i am willing to call you out in front of you… because it is better than just letting you sit there in a downward spiral because no one told you it could be different.”

    If you are so upset about these MLM’s why are you just standing on the side lines protesting against them, it’s not helping you or anyone else, doesn’t really persuade many people either. So why not talk to the MLMs directly, and in a productive manner, not just an aggressive and destructive manner to where they won’t listen to you. so yeah, why not talk to the MLMs directly and try to change them from their ‘harmful ways’? i’ll let you answer that for yourselves. (if you can’t persuade them any different, what makes you think you can persuade anyone else?) Good luck to you all.

    See you later, i shall return in a few weeks from now to check up on ya and see how you are all doing.

    Peace~ =)

  73. February 2, 2011 8:23 pm

    Vogel’s comments was long because he was responding to your original, incredibly long post.

    Commenting is a privilege that I provide on this blog. Those who hijack the thread to turn it into his or her own soapbox go to the moderation bin. This applies to both supporters and critics (just ask Tex).

  74. Izzy permalink
    February 2, 2011 10:02 pm

    @Ryan – Why in the hell do you think we’re speaking out? Because our families and sanity is on the line. We ‘ve been burnt, Ryan, you haven’t, so you can’t understand our frustration and anger. You yourself admitted that TEAM expenses creeps up on a person, and it’s TRUE!

    Sorry, mate, we’re speaking out against injustice. I nearly lost my family. I nearly went bankrupt. Others have lost everything but the shirt on their backs. Why? Because of the intense motivational pressure TEAM applies on those of us who want to get out of debt and give our families a better life. It ran us to the ground.


  75. aurora permalink
    February 3, 2011 6:26 am

    This commenter requested that her comments be removed from this site.

  76. Vogel permalink
    February 3, 2011 12:31 pm

    Ryan, you are a disingenuous fool. The only thing you have provided here, inadvertently, is a cautionary tale against Monavie. You make asinine statements and then make no effort to defend them after they are rightly challenged. So let’s wind the tape back again and review a few of those key points you conveniently glossed over.

    You questioned why it’s not OK for a distributor to imply that Monavie can cure cancer. As I pointed out, it’s illegal to do so. That you would have asked this question in the first place demonstrates your ignorance of US law; that you fail to acknowledge my response demonstrates that you are intellectually dishonest and incapable of admitting when you are wrong.

    Secondly, you raised the issue of leveraging Christianity in the Monavie business. I pointed out that doing so is an unsound strategy for a juice company. You failed to apprehend the very simple reasons I provided. So let’s review those reasons again.

    (1) Monavie does not advertise itself as a “Christian juice company”; why the duplicity? If they are in fact “Christian juice company”, then they should state this on the product homepage. To not do so is deceptive.
    (2) As a retail businessman, I would never want to limit my customer base to Christians only, unless, as I pointed out, the product was something that had unique appeal to Christians (like crucifixes for instance). Excluding non-Christian customers makes absolutely no sense at all for a juice company, which is probably why you don’t see juice products in the supermarket segregated by the religious groups they are intended to appeal to (i.e., you don’t find a Christian juice section, a Hindu juice section, etc.).
    (3) The same logic applies to the distributors; why would you position the business in such a way as to discriminate against non-Christian distributors? You would no doubt argue that Monavie will take money from anyone regardless of their religion, but I would counter that it is ridiculous for any non-Christian to join the business when it is clearly exclusionary in nature. Would a Hindu, Jew, or Muslim want to join a company that states that its goal is to promote Christian values? No, of course not. Again, if the company were honest about the fact that they are exclusionary and that non-Christians will be discriminated against, then that would at least be honest (although still prejudicial). But the company is not honest about this fact.

    On top of everything else, you completely ignore the evidence of the product’s lack of value, the inordinately high failure rate of distributors, the rampant use of illegal advertising methods, and the company’s connection with various neer-do-wells, fraud artists, and convicted felons. You bypass all of this and try to sanctify your atrocious scam under the deluded notion that it is somehow consistent with God’s will. It’s clearly not. Your inability to admit this makes you less decidedly unChristian, and in fact, quite evil, despite the BS candy coating you wrap all your posts in.

    What’s most conspicuous about your posts is (a) the lack of substance and (b) your unwillingness to ever discuss the product itself. I don’t want to hear any more vague BS from you about positivity and religion. Talk about the product or go away and leave those of us who are willing to do so the opportunity to have a meaningful and unfettered discussion.

  77. Vogel permalink
    February 3, 2011 1:03 pm

    Jobless Ryan said: “If you are so upset about these MLM’s why are you just standing on the side lines protesting against them, it’s not helping you or anyone else, doesn’t really persuade many people either. So why not talk to the MLMs directly, and in a productive manner, not just an aggressive and destructive manner to where they won’t listen to you. so yeah, why not talk to the MLMs directly and try to change them from their ‘harmful ways’? i’ll let you answer that for yourselves. (if you can’t persuade them any different, what makes you think you can persuade anyone else?) Good luck to you all.”

    Your comment presupposes that I (and others) are merely sitting on the sidelines and not taking more direct action against Monavie. That’s a baseless assumption, since you know nothing about the offline activities of any of the people who post here. You can rest assured that at least some of us are corresponding with federal regulatory agencies to put an end to your fraudulent business.

    You also make the mistaken assumption that posting on blogs doesn’t help people. It clearly hurts people like you, but it also helps to provide information to people so that they can avoid getting sucked into your pyramid scheme and becoming another red ink statistic in the loss column. And if our arguments weren’t persuasive, you wouldn’t be here chaffing over them.

    Lastly, it’s mindboggling that you could think for even an instant that we should be negotiating with the company. They are ruthless liars and con artists; they planned this scam by design; and in fact, Dallin Larsen pulled the exact same scam with Royal Tongan Limu juice (sanctioned, fined millions, and shut down by the FDA/DOJ) immediately before he launched Monavie (a virtually identical juice scam in every respect). I have no more interest in pursuing negotiations to persuade Monavie execs to not defraud the public than I would have in trying to negotiate with pedarists to convince them that they should stop raping children. But if you want to relay a message to the execs from me, tell them that they can voluntarily go out of business or face the consequences of legal action. Those are the terms of the negotiation. My way or the highway. They deserve no sympathy, no leeway, and no more second chances. My sympathies are reserved for Monavie’s victims; not the company, and certainly not disingenuous exploitive dullards like you.

  78. aurora permalink
    February 3, 2011 2:11 pm


    My hat is off to you. You are an eloquent writer.

    I’m more of the gutteral shoot-from-the-hip, born-on-the-wrong-side-of-the-tracks, please-don’t-feed-me-BS-type.

    Your posts are a pleasure to read.

  79. Vogel permalink
    February 3, 2011 2:55 pm

    Thanks Aurora. The guttoral shoot-from-hip style is great too (loved your cupcake comment…snicker). It’s all for a good cause in the end.

  80. webelieved permalink
    February 3, 2011 7:37 pm

    Amy s. I believe, Pastor Dickie, himself, was used. Seeing him at majors made the new guy believe in the integrity, character of the Team business. I believe he was decieved just like a lot of people, by a charismatic leader that is using Thought Reform. I believe he truly is a man after God’s own heart and that he believed he was helping people. He is an amazing man and speaker and I believe he does not need the Team for money or for people to come to his church. If I lived closer I would go. It is interesting how he disappeared from Team speaking circuit. He offers free sermons online, no charge, unlike the Team…….

  81. Vogel permalink
    February 4, 2011 7:48 pm

    How much of the ill-gotten gains do you think Saint Dickweed gave back to the sheep he helped fleece?

  82. February 5, 2011 7:41 am

    @Ryan – Oh one more thing, while you may be moderated, I do eventually post your comments. That’s more than you can say for Orrin and his blog. You have to at least give me that 🙂

  83. webelieved permalink
    February 6, 2011 11:52 am

    Hey Vogel, do you know Pastor Dickie personally? I believe sadly, he has been decieved. Used just like the rest of us by Orrin and his Generals. The idea of making a difference, personal and spiritual development, changing the country to consevative values etc. etc. … are all noble attributes, until they are used with deception, to make money and control people. Have you checked out the BITE model and Steve Hasan’s teaching on cults? Pretty much explains how it can happen…..even to pastors. Just my personal experience. Pretty crushing to realize how I hurt people….following the so called leaders…I was stripped slowly of the ability to critically think for myself. You are not allowed to criticize or question, only to follow blindly….. When finally you don’t you will be slandered, lied about, your character will be assasinated. Then you will finally realize what and who you were really involved with….. Let me tell you it is pretty painful.

  84. webelieved permalink
    February 6, 2011 12:03 pm

    Funny you say that Amthrax. I was so decieved I never questioned why there were no negative comments on Orrin’s blog. LOL. Disturbing how indoctrinated I was, I never looked at differing opinions, because Team taught me not to, right from the begining. Handling Objections CD. I naively just believed it, because parts of it make logical sense. Thank God for your site and the internet, the truth can finally come out. I hope more people speak out to save others from the hell I have lived in since I realized my life, for years, was a lie.

  85. Izzy permalink
    February 6, 2011 12:59 pm

    Hi, Webelieved, glad to see you got out, and I’m glad this site is getting more publicity, it really does help also as s support for those of us who left TEAM. What made you wake up and leave TEAM? Red flags, etc. Abour Rev Dickie I think I read somewhere that he had members on his board and staff (of the church he pastors) that are pretty high up there in TEAM. That doesn’t sound like he’s ignorant of TEAM. Sorry, just like Vogel, I’m pretty sceptic of Dickie being “innocently deceived” :-s

  86. Vogel permalink
    February 6, 2011 2:09 pm

    Webelieved asked: “Hey Vogel, do you know Pastor Dickie personally? I believe sadly, he has been decieved. Used just like the rest of us by Orrin and his Generals.”

    No, never met Dickie, and don’t ever care to. I don’t see how he could have reached the rank he acheived in the organization without being at least partially aware of what was going on, and if he wasn’t, ignorance is still no excuse. He bears responsibility for not having thoroughly investigated the scam before enticing others to join.

    If Dickie believes that he was misled by Orrin and his minions, then why am I not hearing him speak out about it; why is he not condemning the deceivers? And if he now knows that he was deceived, it means he’s also aware that he in turn deceived others. How is he repenting for his part in the deception? Is he sounding a warning? Is he giving back his ill-otten gains to the victims? No and no.

    Despite the reams of evidence of impropriety in the Monavie organization, I am yet to see ANY senior executive take responsibility; instead they just pass the buck and shift the blame, and that sickens me.

    Becuase Dickie was one of the exploiters profiting from this scam, he is among the last people on my priority list for sympathy.

    When I see comments about Dickie like this one in Forbe’s magazine, I have a very hard time thinking of him as one of the innocents:

    “Woodward’s Web site shows the 41-year-old on his 72-foot yacht and grinning with Pastor Robert Dickie Jr. of Berean Baptist Church in Grand Blanc, Mich. Dickie speaks at Team conventions and gives Bible lessons on Team’s CDs. His son, Robert Dickie III, is Team’s chief executive.”

    Personally, I don’t think Dickie can defend his innocence or deflect responsibility. I think he went in to this with eyes wide open and knew EXACTLY what he was doing from the get go.

    The day Dickie publically condemns this BS scam (and makes reparations to his victims) is the day he’ll earn a modicum of my respect. Until then, he’s just as bad as all the rest of the thugs and charlatans in the upper eschelons of the Monavie pyramid. I might be able to forgive him somday, but not until he repents and tries to make things right.

  87. Speak Your Truth permalink
    February 6, 2011 2:32 pm

    webelieved, I too believe that Pastor Dickie was “used in the worst way.” I do personally know and have spoke with Pastor Dickie and would not want to be in his position. He still does have members on his board still and not sure about them, but do know Orrin, Chris, and Tim are no longer listed on there. When I spoke to him it was on a very personal level of my experience so therefore I cannot speak for him, nor would I. I do wish though that he would make a public statement on why he left the team but it would probably take a book like the rest of us that have been in an illusional state and are now crawling our way out of the pit of hell, dealing with with the excruciating pain that we have caused others and ourselves.
    Depending on your experience,how long you were in, what level you were at, how close you were to the highest of the hiearchy, etc. plays a big role into the healing and how long it takes to share what really happened. It has taken me 2 1/2 years to even come close to scratching the surface of what really happened. First comes the excruiciating pain, then the anger, which for me, the term “postal” has a whole new meaning.
    So, for Vogel and Izzy, I can totally relate to your statement of “innocently deceived” you both could say the same about me. There really are no words to describe the anguish that this causes to the human, heart, mind, soul.
    There is so much more that is untold, and people would get irated on here because my post would take pages.
    Orrin would love to come on here and call us “victims,” “cowards,” “unbiblical” which he already has done to us.
    But in reality it is exactlly what he is doing creating victims (it takes a vicitmizer to create victims), he runs a narcisstic cult, creates others just like him, and those who have been close to him for years and have challenged his agenda, knows first hand this to be true.
    So he has to live everyday just waiting and wondering when he will be “found out” about his profit-sharing, and alot more and believe me what comes around goes around evenutally just like Madoff, he too will be found out. Who knows maybe they will be cell mates or maybe it would be more appropriate for “Manson” to have him as a cell mate. This may sound harsh but until you walk in my shoes could anyone even come close to understanding.

  88. February 6, 2011 2:42 pm

    @webelieved – although I have no direct experience with TEAM and Woodward, his antics are similar to what I saw firsthand a decade ago in Amway. That’s why I’m interested in shining the light on what I perceive to be abuses in these Systems. The comments that have been posted by you and other ex-TEAM members has been very illuminating. Do you know why there has been such an influx of comments lately? Do you have an idea how many people attended the recent Leadership Conference in Ohio?

  89. Speak Your Truth permalink
    February 6, 2011 2:48 pm

    Vogel, I too have had some of the same questions. I do know that All the Dickies, including Pastor have left the team. CEO Robert, Ben (his brother), Ben’s father- in- law Bob Cassidy, and Pastor D. son-in-law Kevin Thompson. I could not speak for any of them. I do know my experience and if anyone knows about the “profit-sharing” or anything else that is “questionable” “secretive”, and knows why they can and do take it away from people who have “earned it by bringing those customers to them, in other words the ” whole truth”, then I feel there is a moral and ethical obligation to reveal it.

  90. Vogel permalink
    February 6, 2011 6:44 pm

    Glad you are here speaking the truth and sharing your experiences. You raised valid points about how difficult it can be to put one’s life back together after going through the Monavie ringer. Like you, I too wish that Dickie would make a statement. It might help considerably with his healing process (not to mention his strained relationship with the Alimighty) to make amends. Sooner would be better than later.

  91. Speak Your Truth permalink
    February 6, 2011 8:44 pm

    I believe it is just a matter of time and you will see more and more speak the truth. I hope for their healing to begin it will help along with educating themselves on cults, mind control and other subjects that will help them heal. I do know alot of people that this has rocked them to their core including me but thank God I am a survior, because of the betrayal, lies, “using” God to fulfil their agenda, and much more. I also know people personally have even questioned their faith and are still struggling with it because of what they have done. So, I agree, the sooner the better for anyone to speak up who has the truth of these narcisstic, twisted, and greedy people who have destroyed peoples finances, faith, and minds. I know there are a few select people who would know the truth about the “profit-sharing” and pray they fulfil their eithical and moral obligations. Btw they call the people on system, “customers” now, think it’s another illusion, of saving themselves from “pyramid scheme”,(that they sue others for and expect to see them as heros and they wonder why people have not zero respect but negitive respect, its amazing) but everyone knows we were paid strickly off our numbers with no end users, we will wait to see who will be the chosen ones for this project. So much for their transperancy, they screem for others to have, such Hypocrisy! But as for me I know it will come back to haunt them with unbelievable force if not in this life but the after life better to do it now, but their choice!
    The profit-shares themselves didn’t even know how they got paid, because they never let anyone read the contracts they made people sign with no chance of getting a copy yep it just keeps getting better. “Just suppose to TRUST” I know it seems unbelievable and it is. What company on planet earth would not tell you how you are paid and worse yet you might say who would be dumb enough to bring hundreds of thousands for some millions over the years,to them through the teams you worked your guts out for, lots of people did! Well it was a long process of them first gaining trust (over many, many, years), then complete chaos, and greed took over and they could no longer hide, thier true colors were flying high of having “integrity, honesty, transparency, strong Christian values. Outrageous! I am speaking the truth because it is necessary. This is my experience and alot of others but will let others if they choose speak for themselves. Glad to see webelieve and others are speaking, let’s all of us others that have experienced some of the same garbage get it out. Thanks for the forum. Monavie “ringer”, interesting terminology you use, you sure you don’t know Orrin?

  92. webelieved permalink
    February 6, 2011 10:16 pm

    I am not sure how many people at the major. I believe if I asked I would be given some embelished number like I have seen before. I know it is a lot less than we had experienced. A lot of big leaders have left and a lot of their downline. I think people are starting to speak out now, because time has passed allowed them to heal somewhat. Also the fog is lifting. I would think like myself it is embarassing to know you were duped so badly. I also know that our life was in ruins, financially, emotionally and spiritually, so going online and speaking was not a first priority. I know leaders that almost ended up in the street because of what was done to them, including myself. Also for me, the indoctrination, and desperation financially made me terrified to speak the truth of my experience, as we have seen a few companies attack the little guy. Now that I am understanding how I could be so decieved, and like Vogel said, therefore decieve others, I feel I should speak out to help others. The emotional scares are so much worse than all the rest. To be betrayed by people who pretended to love and care for you, to lose all your friends, to give up years of your life to a lie, to know hundreds of people heard you support the same people that screwed you, when you sincerely believed you were helping people is devastating. I wish I could have seen the deception in the middle of their enticing good. I hope more people start to tell the truth so we can all heal. As for retribution, the only thing I can do is tell my story as all our money, retirement, earnings etc. went to the Team. I want people to understand how truly dangerous this group is to their lives.

  93. webelieved permalink
    February 6, 2011 11:49 pm

    We never knew exactly how we were paid either. At an event the leaders were made to sign a huge contract that they couldn’t read or get a copy of. To help you understand the indoctrination, no one was allowed to take it to an attorney or to get a copy and yet everyone signed it. Mind you most had been out practically every night for years building the Team business. We had to if we wanted to get paid. Most of us trusted them of course they had our best interest at heart…..
    The first real crack in my rose colored glasses was when they took almost all of our pay away without an explanation. Then my upline demanded I do some things that i felt were immoral/unethical and I refused. After that I was systematically taken out. As i started to piece it all together, as time went along, I found out more inconsistencies. Too much of a story to tell here.
    The Team System was always the business, not the product. That is where people make the mistake. That is how they keep people confused. People like me loved the social aspect, the great people that I met, the conservative principles that were taught. That is the danger, it looks soooo good on the surface.. But later I learned the higher up you get the more you are to conform. to not question. to not do anything upline doesn’t approve of. You need to check in with your upline all the time and report your activities on teamtalk or whatever it is called now. Also counsel with your upline who is successful.( Do they have a counseling degree, how bout a business finance degree??) We were told what books to read, not to read newspapers, watch movies, or watch the negative news, or and don’t talk to negative people they are not enlightened and they are broke, they are
    95%ers …. and of course the internet is like reading the bathroom wall. (Now I find the bathroom wall interesting). You should however read Orrin and Chris’ blogs (which never show the negative posts) Also don’t talk to anyone that is not in your upline or downline in other words crossline.. and God forbid don’t talk to anyone that has left! (They might enlighten you.) This is what CULT expert Steve Hasan calls INFORMATION CONTROL, you can find it at ( type BITE model in the search box). These ideas were not taught all at once but over time and over and over as you listen to leaders and cds. It is how you become indoctrinated. So that is how you boil a frog as they say, a little at a time. That is how I lost my ability to critically think. Oh by the way you will not see this right away… it will be so gradual,eventually you except it as ok. It was sold as you don’t want to hurt someone else’s business, we should respect and not mess with someone else’s hard work. I will tell you now if someone told me now to not talk to someone else, you better believe I would be giving them a call. No one will ever tell me who I can and cannot talk to ever again! But sadly I lived under that crap for years. If all of these things were told to me right away, i would have run! But on purpose they were not.
    I hope this answers some questions, sorry it is so long.

  94. webelieved permalink
    February 7, 2011 12:14 am

    Vogel, I too hope Pastor Dickie publically states he is no longer involved with Orrin or Team, if that is the case. Which I believe it is. Remember we were taught not to say anything negative, ever.Even if it is the truth. He needs to do this however not as gossip,but because his percieved involvment keeps people in the business. Others like myself stuck around and blindly followed because he was such a Godly man. We believed if he was mentoring Orrin, everything was trustworthy. I believe Orrin would not want it publically known Pastor is gone because people will start to question the business. . I would guess it will be told to others in Team like, they moved to Florida and switched churches, or pastor is busy doing something for humanity, or…… something that looks good. Which I would guess is not the whole truth. To really know the answer all will need to ask pastor himself.

  95. webelieved permalink
    February 7, 2011 5:35 pm

    Hey amthrax wanted to let you know we posted on lazyman a few days ago. Tells a bit more of our story. Not sure if you saw it. Under coercion. Wondering has Orrin sued you? Or is there really freedom of speech in this country?

  96. Unknown permalink
    February 7, 2011 9:03 pm

    *********AMTHRAX – Please share with your readers, I was a Sapphire in Quixtar located in UTAH. I left the business in 2007. This is an example of how much money is made on tools….. up to 47% ***********

    Legacy Business Group was an organization formed by Amway Diamonds, which all joined TEAM.

    Legacy Leader –

    Using the attached spreadsheet as a guide will help you better understand as you go through this explanation of the Hybrid Bracket payout system which uses a BV calculation to calculate your bonuses.

    BV calculation

    BV is equal to the amount of money contributed to the payout system for each item, divided by .64. The reason for using a BV number is it put all tools on an equal basis which simplifies the bonus calculation.
    For instance: a $10 item which contributes $2 to the bonus calculation has a BV of 3.125.
    Additionally, a $5 item which contributes $2 to the bonus calculation has a BV of 3.125.
    Therefore even though BSMs may have different retail prices they may very well contribute the same amount to the bonus pool because the actual production cost of one BSM might be higher than another. For example, the CDs we receive through InterNET Services cost us $1.00 more than it cost to produce a Legacy CD. In this case an InterNET CD would have less BV than a Legacy CD because less is contributed to the bonus pool due to higher production cost of the InterNET CD.

    Bracket System

    The first part of the calculation is the Bracket system which is divided into 3 parts also. The first part of the bracket system is for Qualified Platinums and above. You first qualify on this bracket by selling (through personal and group purchases) 750BV worth of BSMs. By doing so you earn 14% of BV. As you can see the brackets go up to 41% in the Qualified Platinum and above Bracket.

    The second two brackets earn an additional 3% for Pin Emeralds and an additional 3% for IBO’s who are Qualified Founders Emeralds or Pin Diamonds. Therefore, if you are a Pin Diamond or Qualified Founders Emerald, you can qualify to be paid for up to 47% of BV.

    Note: September 1, 2006, these second two brackets will change to the following: First 3% bracket will go to Qualified Emeralds, the second 3% bracket will go to Qualified Founders Emeralds (regardless of pin).

    As a Qualified Platinum or above, if you have a Qualified Platinum or above in your group who qualifies for a bonus on the bracket scale you will subtract the amount of their bonus from yours. For example if you qualify at 1500BV in the 18% bracket and you have a Qualified Platinum or above who qualifies with 1000BV at 14%. Your bonus will be 1500*.18 = 270 – 140 = $130 and your Platinum’s bonus will be $140.00 (1000bv*.14=$140).

    5% Override Bonus

    The second part of the bonus is a 5% bonus on legs which max out at 15000BV. This bonus is paid as follows: You will receive a 5% override bonus on any leg which is maxed out at 15000BV, if you have 15000BV outside that leg. If you do not have 15000BV outside the maxed out leg, you will keep the percentage of the available 5% that you have of the 15,000BV with a minimum outside requirement of 4000BV. If you do not have 4000BV all of the 5% will pass-up to the next qualified platinum or above which has at least 4000BV outside the maxed out leg.

    The 5% is only paid once on the leg so the first qualified Platinum or above with enough outside volume to stop the 5% is who will receive it. A multi-leg example of this is as follows:

    IBO 1 has 2 maxed out legs.
    Leg A is 16000BV, Leg B is 15000 BV and he has 6000BV outside of both of these legs. For Leg A he would receive 16000*.05= $800 as he has 21000BV outside of Leg A.
    For Leg B, IBO 1 would receive 40% of the 5% bonus or $300. This is because IBO 1 has 6000BV outside of Legs A and B which is 6000/15000 or 40% of the 15000bv *.05 = $750 from Leg B.

    Bonus pools

    The bonus pools are calculated the same as the have been for the last year. If you sell an item you will receive the full amount of points allotted for that item. If your down-line platinum sells an item he will receive the full allotment of points for the item and you will receive half that amount and so on. The percentage of BV shown on the Hybrid Bracket System breakdown is contributed to each pool and you will receive an amount equal to your percentage of the pool.

    This is repeated for each pool for which you qualify.

    Note: the Pin pools will be kept until the end of August 2006 at which time they will combine to be Qualified Pools.

    These three parts of the bracket system are calculated and summed to calculate your bonus each month.

    I hope with the attached spreadsheet and this explanation you will be able to understand the bonus system. We will continue to create reports that will be available on the website to help you better run your business. If you have any questions please feel free to call me at xxx xxx xxxx.

    Thank You

    Vice President of Finance
    Legacy Business Group, LLC

  97. aurora permalink
    February 8, 2011 3:15 am

    This commenter requested that her comments be removed from this site.

  98. webelieved permalink
    February 8, 2011 5:25 am

    I agree aurora. wondering though how does Legacy pay now? That sounds like it is from Quixtar. How about now? On the Team I believe it never had anything to do with BV. It was only based on your numbers at seminars and tickets directly. I know this because we had to report them to the office, and that is what there recognition was based on as well.

  99. Speak Your Truth permalink
    February 8, 2011 9:07 am

    Most everyone I know left on “bad” terms.
    Why I believe more people won’t speak up:
    1 Would be the obvious; lawsuit.
    2 Some people spent years and years to find out they were living a lie and were emotionally, physically (became ill), and financially, devastated. Most after experiencing this much trauma, want nothing more than to have a normal life. Leaving a cult environment requires sometimes, a very long time, so you can put yourself and your life back together. When you first leave you may not recognize yourself because of all the confusion “secrets”, loss, betrayal, and lies. It may take years for some to clear the fog due to the manipulation, deception, and mind control. So to but it short and sweet, most don’t have the energy and or have not healed enough and some just don’t want to bother.
    3 All the big leaders that I know left because of the betrayal, lied to their income and people stolen from.
    I want nothing more for people to SEE, through the illusion, and recognize the “play on your emotions” and the greedy tactics of how you can to get all the riches!
    ***Their object is to get you to “buy in and get fully invested” “become 100% dependent on the system and your upline so you become trapped!
    But personally, I believe that to heal; you need to educate yourself about mind control, narcissistic leaders, cults, you have to talk , maybe even seek professional help, most counselors don’t have the expertise to help so seek cult advise.
    One of the biggest things for us, and it seemed really bazaar at first, was closing the gap on the loss of the cultural gap, meaning totally isolating ourselves from the real world for over a decade, the world inside the team is an illusion, because of the indoctrination of “evil government/scam” (they think they are clever in distracting you with, so you don’t recognize their scam!) “Negative news” “bosses” “bad advice” basically criticism of everything but their advice, etc.
    If you pay attention to the “subtleties” it becomes clear, the discrepancies and the difference between the walk and talk. Also you may pick up on the clues into their agenda.
    So as for me I am studying about mind control, social control, narcissism(scary and twisted,) other stuff. I believe we cannot help others until we have helped ourselves.
    To come to terms with the experience:
    The Origins of Totalitarianism, the single goal of those movements was “the permanent domination of each and every sphere of life,”
    Most can relate to this; like the control of ALL information, keeping you so busy you don’t have time for family that are outside the business, no negative or any other media for that fact,(unless it is what they have chosen for you) spending your vacations or planning around seminars, majors, fun in the sun (supposed rewarded, EARNED, vacation- where you will be in more meetings), “counseling people” (that we had NO business doing), Leadership Conventions,meetings after meetings, basically controlling all your time, telling you when and how you need to plan your family, date night, (old ways PV parties etc…) Women’s n Men’s leadership, Tues., call sessions on nights you aren’t STP, phone calls, and if you were “privileged” enough and wanted to do the work to build everyone else’s team at Your expense (we did this), you could take your time and money to build your own local seminars but you would have to plan time for inventory for tools, balancing, take the hit and financial loss, etc……. didn’t leave much time to think or do ANYTHING else, it becomes impossible to “shut out” even thinking about it all! Sound familiar? This would make sense if you walked in our shoes.

  100. Speak Your Truth permalink
    February 8, 2011 9:12 am

    What is a Cult?
    The basic traits that all cults share from the International Cultic Studies Association (ICSA) a nonprofit research and educational organization, adopted in 1985:
    You can draw your own conclusion, but I know what my experience was.
    Sound familiar! Can you SEE it! It should be crystal clear!

  101. webelieved permalink
    February 8, 2011 12:28 pm

    Speak Your Truth,
    Sounds familar to me. You can see it when these guys come on here and use their Team Speak. They have not looked at the other side of the story. They can’t even think for themselves and all the words are parroting the big O, Brady, Guzzardo and the rest of the generals. Pretty sad I used to talk and think like that. Can you say Zombie? They don’t allow differing opinions on any blogs….seems suspect doesn’t it. Talk about INFORMATION CONTROL. Never talk, listen or read anything negative… EVEN IF IT IS THE TRUTH.

  102. Izzy permalink
    February 8, 2011 1:06 pm

    Speak Your Truth said something that stood out to me – and that was the fact that a lot of people are scared to speak up for fear of lawsuits. In this day and age everyone sues everyone for anything. I was told by my family to not speak out because I would be slapped with one, especially since my upline and her upline have close connections with Claude Hamilton. I am warning people about it, though. But yes, the fear is very real in the back of my mind.

    As far as the blocking out negativity goes, I lost a friend to TEAM as well. She’s heavily involved in the stuff, and won’t listen to my warnings, and unfriended me on her Facebook because she couldn’t subject herself to the negativeity that’s showing up on her newsfeed, even though I’m speaking out about my personal experience.

    So sad. 😦

  103. aurora permalink
    February 8, 2011 1:31 pm

    This commenter requested that her comments be removed from this site.

  104. Speak Your Truth permalink
    February 8, 2011 1:54 pm

    Izzy and aurora- The lawsuit issue is very real and for us personally, they stripped us of every penny we were making, strategically, this was their plan,(the same as they said, Amway did to them). They did this to many leaders. I can’t stress the financial and mental stress this has caused many leaders so for all to come together for a civil suit, would have been probably years of the same garbage to relive not to mention, the money and time. I am not saying this won’t ever happen and it is very difficult to put into words for others to understand, I would have to indulge other’s situations to explain.
    Izzy- I am sorry and can totally relate to the loss of friends, I too have many friends that I genuinely care for that are so brainwashed. It is all so crazy the grip that they have on others minds.
    I can’t wait for the laws of nature to kick in, I will not be completely free until everyone is out and the fraud is exposed and those who deserve it put behind bars. I feel bad for those that are blindly following , believing they will get any financial can, but will only get heartache out of it. They can’t see the train wreck coming! You take the “System’s” away, all else will fail!

  105. February 8, 2011 2:04 pm

    While you can sue anyone for anything these days, do you know what form this lawsuit threat will take? Would they sue you for lost wages or slander? How are they communicating your departure from the organization (or those leaders that have left — not the Legacy group, but more recent ones) ?

  106. Izzy permalink
    February 8, 2011 2:12 pm

    Slander, Amthrax. Defamation of their business. The Woodwards and their motley crue of slick salesmen and lawyers are constantly making lawsuits and some other legal action to “shut us up”.

    Maybe it is better to let Nature take her course…things do come to a crumble, and our patience will be awarded. But by golly, am I freakin’ IMPATIENT and MAD!

  107. Speak Your Truth permalink
    February 8, 2011 2:16 pm

    I did have a question for you Izzy or anyone else from the Hamilton team; probably ex-team could answer.
    Why did Claude & Lana stay when his upline left the team?
    This is another “illusion” Orrin portrays to stroke his narcissistic personality, “that he has 100,000 people on the team” giving the impression like it is his team. Those of us that have been around from the beggining know better, this “image is a lie”, thousands of people came from all the other groups, that were never in Orrin’s team,Billy F., Randy H.,Chuck G. the Crawfords, etc. but he rakes in the cash from their teams that stayed and then distributed (at least one of these groups system counts that I know of to another team that never built it, to be paid and recognized for it.

  108. Speak Your Truth permalink
    February 8, 2011 2:26 pm

    Amthrax- If you are asking me the question, your guess is as good as mine, but there is no doubt they have alot more money for lawyers, than all the people I know put together, that have left because we all lost thousands per month.
    As fas as what they are communicating about why we have left, you name it, we heard all kinds of “half-truths/lies, it was pretty histerical, pretty much what ever suited them, and what-ever they could be convincing of for the week, just like their programs or ideas of the week!

  109. Speak Your Truth permalink
    February 8, 2011 2:33 pm

    By the way, I couldn’t help myself to let you all know that I have been reading your site and many others for quite awhile, it has served me well as I seriously laugh out loud at some of the comments! Alot of you have a great sense of humor, and I understand the anger and passion.

  110. webelieved permalink
    February 8, 2011 5:00 pm

    Amthrax, I have heard people were told some leaders left because they wanted to get paid for work they didn’t do. Some were said to be trying to steal their team to another mlm (now logically if the income from team were so good, why would a leader go to another mlm?) Some were have said to went to other training companies ……if a leader quit, for any reason I say ……. Red flag! Because of edification some people just believe whatever the bigwig says. They go in your downline,make friends with your leaders and because of your edification, they can destroy you with just one lie. Years of work can be destroyed in an hour.

  111. webelieved permalink
    February 8, 2011 5:02 pm

    Speak your truth, I second that! there are some pretty hilarious comments. Thanks for speaking out everyone. It is very healing.

  112. Izzy permalink
    February 8, 2011 5:26 pm

    @Speak Your Truth, I honestly don’t know what happened to the Hamiltons’ upline, nor do I know who they are. I always assumed that they were under Orrin Woodward. I could be wrong. I think the Hamiltons are greedy, for sure, they were showing off their $2 million home and their big traveling couch thingy with a queen-sized bed, marble floors and a bunch of huge flat-screen TVs – money talks!

  113. Speak Your Truth permalink
    February 8, 2011 6:58 pm

    webelieve-thanks for sharing some of the “rumor, hearsay, and popular opinions(what they use for all and any information out side of their info.) I think they were born with 2 mouths, out 1 they claim they are transparent, honest, have ut-most character, Godly (to me is the worst abuse) while they speak out the other one(mouth), they criticize,condem and complain about college tuitions, family members jobs,other organizations,etc, etc.. The Hypocrisy is criminal to me!

    Izzy- If I remember correctly the Crawfords and Haugens are their upline. But as you can see their (image of lies) is effective, you were on the Hamilton’s team and you didn’t even know Orrin WASN’T in your upline!
    No offense or disrespect to you, just proves how effective the smoke and mirrors are. Thanks for answering. That is another double mouth talk they say they aren’t materialistic and not about the money, when in fact that is exactly what they brag about and show off! They all do this I have been to both Orrin’s, Guzzardo, houses and other Diamonds too. Never was I impressed, they were nice but just never did do anything for me at all. They want you to oooh and aah over them. The worst kicker that irrated me the most was we had to hit certain numbers to even be invited then pay our way there.Who in the world makes “their friends” EARN their way to your house? Disgusting! Same with the fun-in-the-sun, had to bust your butt to get qualified (Earned it, and was under the impression it would be funded)only to find out you had to pay for the all of it (except the “profit-sharing paid for the hotel, so in a sense anyone on system paid for the hotels”), 2 plain tickets, rental car, all the food and anything else was out of your own pocket and then had to have meetings everyday! So their “image of lies,” they are notorious for and also how they keep themselves (they think)looking good.

  114. Speak Your Truth permalink
    February 8, 2011 7:10 pm

    Izzy- I made that statement based on pre-MonaVie. I have no idea how they went into MonaVie or what special deals happened there but they were never in Orrin’s team before along with who know’s how many many thousands for sure! If they would ever tell any truth(doubtful) and we could see how many in the team today that are not from all the other leaders that brought and built them over, it might just end them, just my opinion, judging by the droves that have quit and left.

  115. Speak Your Truth permalink
    February 9, 2011 7:56 am

    webelieved-I remembered another one “they weren’t following the team principles”(they failed to explain “their principles” though, and what I know their was stealing, cheating, & lying) these are only what their pawns were to whisper to those that asked.

  116. Dorothy permalink
    February 9, 2011 11:05 am

    This commenter requested that her comments be removed from this site.

  117. Dorothy permalink
    February 9, 2011 11:55 am

    This commenter requested that her comments be removed from this site.

  118. Speak Your Truth permalink
    February 9, 2011 12:51 pm

    Are you being hypothetical here or are these direct questions and answers?
    I won’t even begin to address this until I know if these are real live questions and answers, and even then I don’t know if I will be able to address this without completely going off!

  119. webelieved permalink
    February 9, 2011 1:41 pm

    Oh is that the b.s . they are saying to keep you all in? What lies. We had to choose between our integrity and money, as for us, we chose OUR INTEGRITY no matter how much pain it caused us. oh what liars!!!! We worked our guts out for years, and we were screwed. Discusting!!! WARNING… Run away! If your upline quit Team call them today to find the real reason! The upline that is helping you is probably counting you in their profit sharing numbers and getting paid by Team. We know leaders that had their pay taken away by Team, then another crossline leader was given their people, their numbers, tickets and system counts! People that are not in their mv teams, that they can use for pay and recognition. Some, got substantial numbers that would take years to earn. Our pay was taken away, our system counts and tickets were given to our upline, who was already being paid on our teams! Amazing the lies people believe. Why would anyone leave after years and years of work unless something was very, very wrong???????????????????????????????

  120. webelieved permalink
    February 9, 2011 2:56 pm

    Dorothy, I believe most people are parroting their upline on those answers. I bet they never asked the leader themselves why they left.

  121. webelieved permalink
    February 10, 2011 6:36 am

    Hey Dorothy,
    I was wondering if you could elaborate on your comment i saw “So they are working on a program to create their own legal scam. Instead of using MV as the income flow, use the tools and the ticket sales. Why? they will tell you because thats really what they wanted all along, to sell leadership and training…”
    They tried selling leadership on it’s own, didn’t work, otherwise they wouldn’t have moved into an mlm. I believe probably just another tactic and promise to keep people’s pie eyes looking at the sky and not at their checkbooks! They are believing someday he will lead them to the promised land, but they don’t realize what they will give up in the desert before they get there!

  122. Will permalink
    February 10, 2011 9:18 am

    Looks like ‘Juice Scam’ has dedicated a new blog specifically geared towards the (orrin woodward team scam) –

  123. Vogel permalink
    February 10, 2011 9:53 am

    Hmmm…looks like the Dickie’s jumped the Monavie ship and now there latest scam is Protandim (just as bad if not worse than Monavie).

    These asses didn’t learn their lesson at all. They just didn’t want to go down with the Monavie ship. But they are right back to ripping people off with another Utah based snakeoil antioxidant pyramid scam. Disgusting!

  124. Speak Your Truth permalink
    February 10, 2011 10:03 am

    webelieved-those that did sell the “system” during the waiting period(pre-MonaVie) to “the promised land/ Walmart of the internet” were suppose to get paid for that and then they “changed the deal, again” and took that money away. “Changing the Deal”-that they critisize the corporate world for doing, Hypocrisy again! Yea they don’t know when they reach the “desert” they will die of thirst because they will have nothing left!
    Their Hypocrisy, lies and deception, is common, standard practice!

  125. One time Fly that sat at the Team Conference Table permalink
    February 10, 2011 10:10 am

    Well, here’s a quote I saw today on Twitter from Orrin..

    “You can tell the size of the leader by the way they treat people who cannot help them.” -Orrin Woodward

    Let me tell you, if that’s the truth then Orrin is a friggin midget! He uses people for HIS success. One need only go to DVD’s and CDs when he would edify the hell out of Both Pastor Dickie and his son Bob. But once the crap hit the fan and Bob resigns Orrin couldn’t start trashing him quick enough. The lies that are being told inside the Team Home Office to the Staff (who absolutely loved Bob) to tarnish their view of him are horrendous. It’s been told to me that Orrin has blamed profit loss on the former CEO.

    Orrin is really good at quoting books…Like this one..

    “A True Leader looks out the window when things are going good, but looks in the mirror when things are going bad”

    I guess Orrin may still believe that, but he must have installed two way mirrors in his house! You can guess what side is facing his mug!

  126. webelieved permalink
    February 10, 2011 10:13 am

    Hey Vogel, Carrie Dickie a former Black Diamond and Pastor Robert Dickie are not related. She was in MV much earlier than he. In a different group. She’s in CA he’s from MI.

  127. Izzy permalink
    February 10, 2011 10:52 am

    @Speak Your Truth – no offence taken, there was a lot of things I didn’t realise about TEAM, perhaps it’s because I never involved myself in gossip, politics, and leaders’ lives, etc, just focused mainly on the juice, and TEAM (as a leadership development system – or so I thought!) secondly. I admit I didn’t totally understand that TEAM was actually a separate business until I was a few months into the business – lol lots to learn for this slow thinker! *blush*

    Just wish things were simple again…

  128. Speak Your Truth permalink
    February 10, 2011 11:04 am

    One Time Fly
    Oh seems Orrin has created a new quote to belittle and berate people to serve his agenda and try and strip people of their crediblity.
    He also BELIEVES, if you are not for him, you are against Him, hence why he tries to destory others character and looks at them as an enemy!
    This is no surprise, typical and notorious, he is the only one whom can speak from the throne and all should believe him!

    “You can tell the size of the leader by the way they treat people who cannot help them.” -Orrin Woodward
    This one use to be his touted one:
    “You can tell the size of the person by the size of the things that make them angry.”
    Oh boy I could really go off on a tangent on this one!

    Narcissitic.. Hmmmm… very telling!
    Here are the 9 criteria. Having 5 of these 9 “qualifies” you as a narcissist…

    1)Feels grandiose and self-importance (e.g., exaggerates achievements and talents to the point of lying, demands to be recognized as superior without commensurate achievements)
    2)Is obsessed with fantasies of unlimited success, fame, fearsome power or omnipotence, unequalled brilliance (the cerebral narcissist), bodily beauty or sexual performance (the somatic narcissist), or ideal, everlasting, all-conquering love or passion
    3)Firmly convinced that he or she is unique and, being special, can only be understood by, should only be treated by, or associate with, other special or unique, or high-status people (or institutions)
    4)Requires excessive admiration, adulation, attention and affirmation – or, failing that, wishes to be feared and to be notorious (narcissistic supply).
    5)Feels entitled. Expects unreasonable or special and favourable priority treatment. Demands automatic and full compliance with his or her expectations
    6)Is “interpersonally exploitative”, i.e., uses others to achieve his or her own ends
    7)Devoid of empathy. Is unable or unwilling to identify with or acknowledge the feelings and needs of others
    8)Constantly envious of others or believes that they feel the same about him or her
    9)Arrogant, haughty behaviours or attitudes coupled with rage when frustrated, contradicted, or confronted.

    The language in the criteria above is based on or summarized from:

    American Psychiatric Association. (1994). Diagnostic and statistical manual of mental disorders, fourth edition (DSM IV). Washington, DC: American Psychiatric Association.

  129. webelieved permalink
    February 10, 2011 11:09 am

    “You can tell the size of the leader by the way they treat people who cannot help them.” -Orrin Woodward

    Better yet, “You can tell the size of the leader by the way they treated people that did help them” -Webelieved

  130. Speak Your Truth permalink
    February 10, 2011 11:27 am

    I too wish things could be simple again and now with time adjusting has been very difficult but definitely am “Fired-Up” I am gone.
    Not to disrespect and or defer from the pain you suffered, it is all too much sometimes. I have to say I wish I stood where you are and never got close to people to destroy and manipulate for so many years, you were the wiser one.

  131. Will permalink
    February 10, 2011 8:22 pm

    Here is a tweet from Orrin Woodward today: Finances are mathematics applied to life, regrettably, few paid attention in math class. 🙂

    “Really Orrin? So you are teaching TEAM business distributors finances and how to make good choices with their money, correct? Then how many have become successful under your financial guru wisdom that you have given them? Less than .05% of the people that join Team/Monavie have made anything over $118/mo according to the last income disclosure statement provided by MonaVie. Looks like 99% of your followers have failed miserably following your advice and the sad part is, is that you have convinced them that they are ON THEIR WAY…when in reality, they are only on their way to going BROKE. With those kind of results I would say that 99% of your class got an F (and that is not a 58% grade, if we are rating your followers based on their income to debt ratio…then 99% of your distributors probably only would earn a whopping 1% grade on their math exam) BOOM GOES THE DYNAMITE

  132. Will permalink
    February 10, 2011 8:34 pm

    I can’t contain myself tonight. Too many funny things happening out there on Orrin Woodward’s Twitter wall.

    Orrin is trying to talk some poor college fellow into joining his business. That is the worst thing that could happen to a young college students life. Right now they need to focus on their grades, friends and getting a JOB that after they graduate that can pull in REAL money for their future and their family. You can follow part of the Orrin Woodward conversation on this poor college students twitter profile here: (HOPEFULLY, he will have the wisdom to RUN and say NO to drugs!!)

  133. Will permalink
    February 10, 2011 8:59 pm

    Speak Your Truth – “He also BELIEVES, if you are not for him, you are against Him, hence why he tries to destory others character and looks at them as an enemy!”

    That is a great quote and so true. I am also glad that you posted the 9 criteria on narcissists as well. That was very enlightening to say the least. Being with the team over the years and watching the way Orrin operates, I can say that this is a good description of his persona. Orrin and Chris are always looking to blame other people for their lack of results in the business or if someone decides to quit and this bashing, de-edifying and talking down on type behavior trickles down to everyone in the team. you are taught to view people that quit as losers, thumb suckers, nose pickers and all of the other lame terms that they come up with. Not too CHRISTIAN like either I might add, being that they like to flaunt their christian rhetoric on stage. Seems to be a little bit of hypocrisy there. Just a smudge! (Sarcasm intended)

    I want to throw up when I see the way others have been treated and the way I was treated when I finally decided to leave the team. They cannot allow you to leave in peace, otherwise people would question why you left and if the leaders do not have a good answer then people will start to question whether or not the business works….and we all know that Orrin and the leaders do not want people to think for themselves.

    If current distributors in team would just stop for a minute and think clearly on this subject they could not lie to themselves about this and they would easily say “You know what, you’re right! Come to think of it, every time someone leaves there is always a negative story or slur behind that departure.” I was in the business for 7 + years and every time someone quit or a big leader left, there was never a positive story or comment about it. EVER! That stems from the leadership from team and the information at the top spreading down.

    So much for practicing what you preach! These guys truly are one person on stage and someone different (much worse) off of stage. Not really winning too many friends with these tactics, to play on one of their top books that they promote by Dale Carnegie. I think Hollywood made a movie about them a few years back: HOW TO LOSE FRIENDS AND ALIENATE PEOPLE

  134. Speak Your Truth permalink
    February 11, 2011 9:43 am

    I love your “BOOM GOES THE DYNAMITE!”
    In all seriousness it is very heart wrenching to hear how so many people have been “treated!”Our experience was enough but not even close to being isolated in that it was destructive.
    I wish I was at liberty to share others stories,(I hope they find their way to release it) it is appalling!

    There is no doubt that they are “dictators,” “cult, no doubt in my mind” and try and control every area of your life and worse “your thinking!”
    This is a delluisional and narcisstic believe (or “wrong” or “we need to correct your thinking” or ” we have to get you to “buy In”,as Orrin soooo many times will tell you from stage and to your face, again narcissistic and controlling! Glad the the ” 9 critera” helped, I am in no way claiming I am a Pyschiatrist or anything close, but it definetly helped me in some understanding.

    I will say this he told a friend of mine “You have to hit a certain level before you can point out any descrepencies, focus on what you can control!”
    So in other words “shut up” and go build your business! He hated it when you would bring up the “wrongs that were going on, there couldn’t possibly be anything wrong with “MY” system or leaders, THAT” I” CREATED” and beleive me leaders only brought them up when they WERE WRONG and went against their OWN TEACHINGS!
    His standard answer is: “Do you want to be Rich or Do you want to be Right!”I and others weren’t trying to “be right” WE WERE TRYING TO DO RIGHT!”

    You can’t have FREEDOM,”free enterprise” when you have dictators, just watch the history being created in Egypt!

    If he would only take his own advice, and use the “Christian Principles” he so crams down others throats, face his own “brutal reality” scan his own memory of ALL those that rejected him and WHY they left. He may (doubtful) feel (he tells you not to pay attention to feelings, hmmm….) then I think he would be crushed under his own conscience!

    I am sorry I ramble so much, and if I am irrating to you Amthrax you can let me know, I will find or create another spot to vent, just want you to know this is very healing and for all of us under this oppression for so long has to find a way to release it.

  135. Speak Your Truth permalink
    February 11, 2011 9:56 am

    Better yet, “You can tell the size of the leader by the way they treated people that did help them” -Webelieved

    In all humility, that is the truth!

  136. Vogel permalink
    February 11, 2011 10:36 am

    “Real” leaders are highly self-critical and they also actively seek feedback, whether it’s positive or negative. Woodworm seeks to squelch any and all criticism, and he displays none of the qualities of good leadership. Nonetheless, he expects to be edified (translation — deified) by his minions. I honestly don’t know how anyone could put this idiot on a pedestal; he should instead be sitting in a corner wearing a dunce cap.

  137. Speak Your Truth permalink
    February 11, 2011 12:01 pm

    You are one of commentators that I cannot help but laugh hysterically when I read your comments.

    Funny you bring up the dunce cap because he tells a story and I believe it is on a cd about “what he use to be like before he became a “genius,” leadership guru, number 1 best seller on wall street journal, Time” Forbes (telling),( for all I know he is saying the LLR is what the President himself, lives, eats and breaths and running the country on, and whatever else he could manipulate you to believe.)
    Back to the dunce story, he got drunk one time and when he woke up he had a lamp shade on his head. I am still laughing!

  138. Speak Your Truth permalink
    February 11, 2011 1:02 pm

    Sorry I got so wrapped up in the joy of laughing hysterically, that I forgot to mention the very valid point you make on “Real” leaders.
    Orrin makes people believe and lets those words roll off his lips as though he does “self-critical,” “brutal reality” and accepts “feedback” but as the statement from their own rhetoric goes:
    “YOUR ACTIONS SPEAK SO LOUDLY, I CAN’T HEAR YOUR WORDS.” Which by the way is way true for me and many others.
    They would could have been more respected had they taken up a career in the circus as a magician/illusionist. This is their game.

  139. February 11, 2011 9:01 pm

    I know a judge in Deteoit found Orrin Woodward, Chris Brady and Tim Marks GUILTY and ordered them to pay 25 million dollars to Amway, however they later settled. Some people on team believe this settlement means that Orrin and his cronies are innocent and that just makes me laugh!! just because someone settles a suit in court does not mean the party at fault is magically void of any wrong doings!! Just goes to show how team folk are brainwashed and no able to think for themselves. The fact still remains…….Orrin Woodward was found GUILTY in the court of law! WAkE Up pEOpLE!!!!

  140. Izzy permalink
    February 13, 2011 9:49 am

    The Woodwards will say at conventions that they are in a lawsuit, but they’ll make it look like THEY are the victims and not the other way around. I know this because back in 2010 it was mentioned at one and I didn’t even know about it. I wasn’t there but the TEAM friend (before I left TEAM) was saying “too bad Orrin and Laurie are in that lawsuit, I hope it all gets worked out”. The TEAM followers will believe the leaders as gospel truth, so if they hear of legal action, it’s always TEAM’s version that they’ll hear and believe.

  141. Amy S. permalink
    February 13, 2011 9:57 am

    RE: OWesladouche;

    Your comments are very true, but keep in mind that all of the ‘leaders’ on Team who followed Orrin, Chris and Tim from Amway to Monavie were involved in bringing their own networks over to Monavie. At the time it felt like a gold rush and even though it might have been wrong (proven guilty in court)… all of the Team members didn’t know the ‘entire’ storey, all they knew was that they were surpressed while with Amway and had a much better chance of ‘achieving their dreams’ if they moved to Monavie, so they followed. At the Team seminars, the fire was fueled by underlining hits at Teams position as a David fighting a Goliath. The reason why the ‘people’ on Team won’t wake up is because of ‘success stories within the Team’.

    I’ve seen many leaders who’ve achieved a level of success – Round Table (Having two legs at a system count of 50, and a third leg with a system count of 25), Turbo 25-50-100 (Having two legs at 25 system count = Turbo 25) and they worked their guts out to get to this level… 6-7 nights a week, years on the Team, and then 3-6 months later… they fall back to half of this level, to have to start all over. BUT its when they hit this level… EVERYONE on the Team get’s energized… wow! If they can do it, I can do it mentality, but NO ONE really knows what it takes to hit that level, and 99 % of people will not change their entire life to make the Team become their ENTIRE lifestyle. Therefore, because this EXTREME lifestyle is NOT duplicatable… it takes leaders FOREVER to achieve a certain level of success. Most of the leaders at these levels have been involved for 5+years, and many 10+years with very little to show for it. This is the REAL reason why Orrin can keep his overall Team together… five success stories on a stage in front of 10,000 people keeps 9,995 people hoping that it can ‘happen’ for them too… without a realistic understanding of the TRUE amount of work, sacrifice, severed relationships, absentness from your family and financial ruin involved to achieve it. Iron certainly sharpens iron, as does the blind leading the blind.

  142. Speak Your Truth permalink
    February 20, 2011 3:23 pm

    It is astonishing how they are found guilty, and of what all know is true because they did tell us when to resign, that alone should wake people up, shine some light on his grand Character.
    I remember Orrin stating show me one person that I told to leave (paraphrasing). Unbelievable, seriously who does he think believes that BS?
    He seriously needs a check-up from the neck up!
    But I would bet that anyone that is still following has not read that lawsuit, the only information they would get would be from the Policy Council, and you must already know how they will do and say anything to protect that “false image.”

    What is up with Tim Marks and the something like 17,000 hidden doc.?
    That should follow in with their Christian teachings, right?
    There must be some hidden Christian book somewhere that says it is ok to lie and deceive and break the law!
    He also talked to a bunch of people during the gag order, which I guess if you are Orrin you are an exception to any laws!
    It is nothing shy of amazing what people will people under the spell!

  143. Speak Your Truth permalink
    February 20, 2011 3:58 pm

    @Amy S.
    I agree! If people only knew, they had more Diamonds that broke before who are not Diamonds now at least not on there Leadership page, I can think of 3! So, so much for the growth anyone with a team knows they are not coming close to what they tout about growth!
    It seems the only way they can break any new levels now or keep those qualified (in Team) would be to give those “choosen Leaders” system counts and tickets from groups they never even built, let alone knew those people, at least this “fakes out” the new guy!
    They base their fight on “free enterprise” it is really disturbing when you “give people someone else’s system & tickets” it is sickening on all his guru teachings and Chris’s EARN IT CD, and that he is against (gov/scams, people who want something for nothing, etc) and then tout “You Never Ever lower the bar.”
    This is socialist behavior and they think they have kept this hidden from the masses, while those same people speak on their stages and tell them, just do what the leaders do, etc.etc..! Again words cannot express the Hypocrisy!
    There is nothing new under the sun, Orrin has been using the same “system” since back in the early 90’s ( but of course they have changed in some ways but the teachings are basically the same, they don’t say Amway!) which he stole all his information from those building the Amway buiness, “systems”, Dexter was his hero.
    I just wish people could use their common sense and quit worshipping him and others because when you get out you can See this so clearly!

    Idol worshipping is definetly not taught in the bible.
    Someday this will catch up to them!

  144. Will permalink
    February 21, 2011 6:06 am

    Wow, so what did Tim Marks do exactly? He hid 17,000+ documents from Quixtars lawyers during the time of ‘Discovery,’ or what exactly does that refer too?

    You can’t get more dis-honest than that. The more I learn the more disgusted I get at this group of so called leaders.

  145. Speak Your Truth permalink
    February 21, 2011 8:42 am

    Yep- Them Honest Christian, Men of Integrity!
    I’m sure we must be mistaken though or got misinformation or didn’t read it correctly or aren’t smart enough or don’t have all those “pesky little facts”, that only the “Superior thinkers have” or made an error, that couldn’t be the truth, or could it!
    Our Diamond repeatedly told everyone they are a “Think Tank” ” The Assembly of the Greatest Minds ever put together IN THE WORLD!” so us lowly builders must have it wrong!

  146. team deception permalink
    February 21, 2011 8:55 am

    Speaking of a man of integrity, Orrin woodward is at it again. His latest scam is a church in florida and they have him speaking at an event this weekend. These poor people at this church need to be warned whats coming there way. They are in deep trouble.

    Orrin Woodward is speaking at a conference Feb 25-26th called the CrossLife Conference: He is one of five speakers. His topic to speak on is “He (God not Orrin) is the light of the world”. This church needs to be warned ASAP about what Orrin Woodward is really all about!!!!

  147. Speak Your Truth permalink
    February 21, 2011 10:41 am

    I believe you are right. This is very sad those people have no idea what is about to hit them.
    How would the warning come?
    I believe it would take a pastor to sound that warning for it to be taken seriously enough.

  148. Izzy permalink
    February 21, 2011 10:48 am

    I hope someone has contact with a pastor – I would notify one if I knew who to contact, but well….I’m just here in Canada, and I don’t know who to contact myself.

  149. I Quit ( and glad I Did) permalink
    February 23, 2011 9:21 am

    Greetings ya’ll! I’m new to this stuff but I can hold back no longer. I was in the Guzzardo org. I was there before the Team was even “The Team”. After reading through all these posts and contemplating whether I should throw in a comment for a long time I’ve decided to go for it. I am nervous about the lawsuit stuff so I will be very careful to not divulge my identity. I basically agree with 95% (ha ha) of whats been said. Some of the personal attacks may be a little harsh but I thoroughly understand as I’ve been there myself. I reached Turbo 100 (and then some in leg three) several times only to lose some to “die back”, entered sapphire qualification several times only to lose some to “die back”. Each time the attitude was “Fine I’ll replace you with two!” And I did. Again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. well you get the point right? One can only do this for so long before the rose colored glasses crack (to coin a phrase). There was really no one thing that pushed me to the edge. It was more of a conglomeration of all the issues previously mentioned in “yous guys” posts. I have never been nor will I ever be a kiss ass. That being the case I knew it would be harder to advance but like it or not you can’t ignore numbers. Or so I thought. After not receiving the same edification for levels achieved numerous times suffice it to say I was a bit disenchanted with the whole mess. I’ll stop for now because I don’t want to get long winded. I’ll elaborate more down the road. Thanks for the therapy!

  150. February 23, 2011 9:42 am

    @iquit – Welcome to the discussion. Looking forward to hearing more from you in the future.

    Since you quit, do you know how your absence has been communicated to your group and the rest of the organization?

  151. February 23, 2011 10:04 am

    Hi, this is Izzy, lol, I just got a new WordPress blog because I finally decided to migrate from my Windows Live Spaces. Nothing to really to see yet, tho.

    Anyway, I Quit, I’m glad that you were able to get out of this awful cult, and I do hope you are doing okay. I know it can be rough leaving the TEAM, I mean I was in denial about a lot of stuff when I first left, not even wanting to call a spade a spade. Anyway, be rest assured that you have lots of support, ok? And check out – a lot of use ex-TEAMers are there as well.

    Cheers, mate!

  152. Speak Your Truth permalink
    February 23, 2011 11:06 am

    @I quit
    I am so sorry to hear the same old broken record, but am not surprised and wonder how long it will take for others to speak up!
    I feel your pain!
    You have found your real friends, that would love to see you heal from the undescriable lies, deception, false edification, etc… I totally understand your passion (anger).
    There is alot of good information on the cult’s that will help!
    When it comes down to it the Power & greed is all they care about!
    Welcome to the “negative 95% er’s LOL!!!!!
    Those that face reality, an unplug from the Matrix!

  153. I Quit ( and glad I Did) permalink
    February 23, 2011 11:45 am

    Can you guys get me up to speed on: the pastor Dickie situation, the Bob Dickie resignation and why did some of the Diamonds bail out of the Team? I just need the bullet points! Thx. I’m out of touch on all things Team. Intentionally. But you’ve peaked my interest.

  154. Speak Your Truth permalink
    February 23, 2011 12:14 pm

    Pastor Dickie does not speak for the Team anymore, but if you know him I would give him a call and ask him for those answers. He really is a good man you might want to share why you left.
    There is a commentor on either this site or juicescam? That explains the legacy departure. I personally know some things but would not be appropriate to share.
    It really would be hard to get the whole truth unless you could talk with these people.
    How long have you been out?

  155. I Quit ( and glad I Did) permalink
    February 23, 2011 1:01 pm

    Hey Amthrax- no I don’t know how my absense is being explained. I’d be curious to hear it though…

  156. I Quit ( and glad I Did) permalink
    February 23, 2011 1:25 pm

    Hey Speak- I too moved with the masses from Q to MV. I wasn’t overly thrilled to do so but I knew my whole group would be gone and I sure as hell wasn’t gonna flush all that time, money and hard work!!! I didn’t want to be a miracle juice salesman and still don’t. I went to a couple of the new idea opens and was not impressed. I spoke at a lot of opens in the Q model and at least felt good (not great) about the products offered. But I could NOT see myself promoting the nectar of the gods. I went to 2 seminars geared toward the new model and was almost ill. I went to one major after that and the final nail was in the coffin. My wife and I had a long discussion and pulled the plug. It was easier for her since her belief had been gone for some time. The tools played a major role in the decision. A pack for this a pack for that, Many with one or more of the same cd’s there-in. Books written by Woody and Brad containing in print the same phrases that are on many cd’s. It was obvious to us that all this does is generate tool/$ flow. First nite packs changing every 3-6 months so your supply in the trunk is obsolete and useless before any dust even formed… There. Thats my next installment.

  157. February 23, 2011 1:57 pm

    I posted information about Legacy (ex-TEAM Diamonds forming their own organization) here:

  158. Speak Your Truth permalink
    February 23, 2011 6:40 pm

    @Amthrax thanks for posting that for I quit, I appreciate it! Sometimes my memory fails me, you know still trying to “clear the fog” and deprogram! No I have to be honest, I really need improvement!

    @I Quit
    It really is a breath of fresh air to hear someone else has seen the light, so to speak!
    I can totally relate to the over abundance of junk tools!
    It was making me angry when I found 3 of same Cd’s with 3 different stickers on them(one for every company, and one for every new design and different packs!) I have been going through ours 4000 of them, over 100 dvd’s ! I just ripped up all the (10) team receipt books, packs and packs of brochures, newspapers, (on that miracle juice), well over 50 cd packs(took cds out tore up cardboard) and burned it all, yesterday! I am free!
    I just wish I had the money (add that up), for all that junk, we really could be retired!(did that too)
    For the sake of repeating myself I share some of why we left on this site, let me know if your “profit-sharing” was stolen from you too.
    I feel guilty for clogging up the earth with this garbage, every time I go to the dump! I had already taken 6000 tapes (yes it dates us) to the dump this past summer! I did donate 1 of each of everything to a good cause though(now that is some POSITIVE, people come on here and say it’s all negative!) Took a bunch of the books to half off, and they wouldn’t even take them (only a couple) they told me they would shred them for me though, ha!
    We still have 4 full books shelves still! We have a total of 10 book shelves!
    We sold some. We still have LLR’s from the cases we bought, I wouldn’t even sell those, they should be shredded!
    A great friend and Team builder (you would know) and our spouses would brain storm on what to do with these junk cd’s!
    We came up with disco ball (my favorite), fill kids walls with shiney side out, baby mobile and others!
    I even thought about starting a blog to get ideas, ha!
    It really was a healing moment, we laughed so hard we cried!!!!

    I am sure we know each other and spoke at the same opens,we spoke for years at their seminars, it is really painful (brainwashing & promotion), but like you I DO NOT MISS IT!

    The worst was when the reality hit of all those years waisted away from our kids and family, and each and every person on our team that we felt we hurt, it really was excruciating, and still don’t have the words, and am still dealing with that, all for a LIE!

    I decided and it has been sent up for over a month, just haven’t written yet, but a blog on the things I am learning on social and mind control, amongst other things. I believe this would help in my healing and others too.
    My friend and I have even checked out some cult experts too and are planning on going to a; you guessed it, SEMINAR, but not even close, ha, this is on cult’s, recommended by some experts.
    Didn’t mean to end on such a sad note but the need for healing cannot be denied! It feels great to be FREE!
    They have stolen way too much from way too many and enough, is enough!

  159. Speak Your Truth permalink
    February 23, 2011 6:46 pm

    @I Quit
    I love the “nectar of gods”, that is priceless!

  160. I Quit ( and glad I Did) permalink
    February 24, 2011 6:39 am

    Wow speak- you definitely had a serious trunk! Over the years I learned to keep a trunk that was commenstruate to tool flow. Yes I know that was against all advice from upline but they weren’t paying for it were they?! I still ended up with a s*^tload of waste too. I laughed when you mentioned tapes. Wanna know how I got rid of mine? I left all five big boxes up in the attic when our house was sold! The new owner must have gotten a laugh out of that! I wonder if half price books will want any of my brand new stock? Was it worth the effort?

  161. I Quit ( and glad I Did) permalink
    February 24, 2011 7:35 am

    Oh and speak- no I did not have my profit sharing stolen. I lost that due to my numbers crashing and burning (again)after the MV shift. Surprise! (not) That prompts a question- Why did this happen to some and how did the Team justify this? I was disconnected completely so I never knew this even happened. That is just plain theft in my mind. I await your answer with bated breath…

  162. Speak Your Truth permalink
    February 24, 2011 7:56 am

    @ I Quit
    I am cracking up about your tapes! I hope they didn’t listen to them they would need deprogramed!
    You have to watch the Movie, “Believe” on multi-level marketing, it is hystrical but chillingly true, I found out who my character is!
    When we first watched it, we were shocked and embarassed but it is hilarious, the guy who plays in it acts and looks just like Jim Carey!

    Yep the tool trunk, I remember when Our Diamond(wasn’t a Diamond then) another leader on our team and us went to check who had the biggest trunk because the “Guru” told us too, low and behold we had the biggest and we were the brokest, imagine that!
    Not to mention embarassing for our upline!
    Can you say hook, line and sinker!

    Half price books only takes the most current books, I didn’t think the ones I had were out dated but apparently so, they were brand new to me, ha!
    Besides they don’t pay squat for them!
    The Policy Council I think has lost their minds and in turn lost all the builders because of pride, need for power, ego, and greed.
    The way they take people out is appalling!
    I wonder how much longer they can fake it!

    Didn’t you try an conflict resolution?
    Sarcasim intended, because we know it’s their way or the highway!

    @ Amthrax
    I just remember another reason they say people leave,
    (Orrin mentions this slickly in one of his blog post about “if people were concerned they would come to them and of course they would satisfy their customers, another LIE.)
    This is a line they get others to buy into; was because “they didn’t go to the guru to conflict resolution! Believe me he throws this in people’s face, take it from someone with the experience!
    We tried that for years and the only way to resolve anything is to not question and just agree!Cult!
    That of course is after Orrin tells you your thinking is off and he needs to correct it!
    This strokes his ego and allows him to continue to feel “Superior.”
    This is crazy in the Real World!

    BTW Pastor Dickie is who taught “conflict resolution”, even came out on a cd and it is very telling that he no longer is with the team.
    Hmm..just raises some logical questions doesn’t it.

  163. webelieved permalink
    February 24, 2011 8:02 am

    You guys are funny.. I have thousands of dollars of cds we could make disco balls out of lol, books too. I am sick of looking at them. Too bad we couldn’t find a new zombie and we could sell them for half price. haha. Actually i wouldn’t even donate the crap to Goodwill, I don’t want anyone else to buy into those great guru liars. Oh boy.. you are all giving me a good laugh. I bet the new homeowner got a laugh! I too had similar experiences I Quit. Interesting they think they can treat their own builders like s$%%%t and think their business will grow. I notice most of the speakers are still at the same levels they were years ago. So much for fake edification and promotion. The poor new guy hasnt a clue he’s being snowed. Wow they are getting desperate, they must have lowered the bar for speaking. I wonder how many lies we were told for years to keep us chasing the dream?? Discusting!I know one lie, btype ,passive residual blah blah blah income. Wondering I Quit did they take your Team profit sharing down to next to nothing and then take it away after you built it for years and years ???I would have never ever ever built the so called business I did if I knew the truth. More leaders who built it and left need to tell the truth so others can’t say to themselves it is just a bunch of losers, and whiners, and jealous people that didn’t want to do the work. I say “Lie about me and I will tell the truth about you.”

  164. Speak Your Truth permalink
    February 24, 2011 9:02 am

    @ I Quit
    Why did this happen to some and how did the Team justify this?

    Well long story of LIES during the transition when we left Q,(not to mention the 4 grand there we gave up overnight because They decided for us) we were making double digit income (before the coma) and imediately this income went down to about a flat $500 per month.
    Now this is all without an explanation and remember ORRIN SAID HE WAS USING ANYONES MONEY BUT HIS OWN FOR LAWSUITS!
    So you tell me how they figure because Orrin says “figures don’t lie but liars sure do figure!” Our system count did even drop 1 during this time and I have proof!
    So what would any leader or human being for that matter do to feed his family and pay his bills, duh, look for a way to do just that!

    So we were looking for a way to PAY OUR BILLS, and was “checking out” other income streams, when low and behold they started spreading lies
    ( and secret meetings to de-edify and get people to buy into this AND MAKE US THE ENEMY) But the TRUTH of the matter is we stood up to their IMMORAL and UNETHICAL PRACTICES, and a whole lot more to the story, this is how they justify taking our income and that is exactly what they did!
    So much for the on-going, passive, residual, “b-type” (bogus-Orrin Owns That system @ least he does now), forever, willable income, BULLSH$$T! You have no idea there is so much more!
    There is no way to share it all, especially here.
    We asked for the contract, they refused(said we could travel to view it but they were “exercising their rights” and voided out the old without letting anyone know, and made a new contract and then said we could pay to go to another seminar to sign the new one, THE NERVE of these liars!!!!
    We are NOT the only ones this happen too, I do know of some more Big leaders that this same thing happened to!
    Lots of bold-faced lies, assumtions, without a call, said they did, which was another BOLD-FACED LIE but by this time they had already justified this, and poisioned the minds of some!
    We had tons of people quit from their unethical and immoral practices for sure!
    I will write a book someday!

  165. I Quit ( and glad I Did) permalink
    February 24, 2011 9:10 am

    Speak- Guess its a good thing I quit when I did. Cuz I certainly would have after shenannigens like that! WOW!!

  166. I Quit ( and glad I Did) permalink
    February 24, 2011 10:05 am

    I’ve been digesting your last post speak and I still am in shock. This sure ain’t the team oriented, we’re on a mission from/for God, I love you man, I’m proud of you man, you can do it behavior one should expect from such fine Christian men of integrity. Holy crap I just can’t believe it!!

  167. webelieved permalink
    February 24, 2011 10:49 am

    For all the leagal beagles, this is my opinion…….

    Speak, sounds like we had the close to the same experience on this one. “not to mention the 4 grand there we gave up overnight because They decided for us) we were making double digit income (before the coma) and imediately this income went down to about a flat $500 per month.”
    Ours was a similar story. At the same time some in our downline were making a lot more in profit sharing than us, when they had obviously smaller teams and smaller numbers, did you have that same experience? Discusting. Our family now had to live on under a thousand a month. We were the ones who “earned it” as they say. We suddenly weren’t even earning enough to put gas in the car, pay the babysitter, or buy groceries! Neither one of us had jobs as we had “retired on the Team”. Sounds like you were may have been in the same situation Speak? What a joke. No explaination from the guru diamonds that were our “friends”. Our downline was also given a crossline’s profit sharing leg they didn’t earn, a large one, one that would take years to earn. They were taking recognition for it! Then a whole lot more happened, we wouldn’t go along with. Because of this our team and our credibility was systematically destroyed by our upline diamond and some other ass kissing liars. Because of these things and other unethical things done by our upline, and being systematically pushed out, we decided to not attend events anymore. Low and behold more secret meetings started happening in our teams. Lies and slander were told against us. People were told not to talk to us. You guessed it, later we had the rest of our profit sharing taken away and ironically given to people who were already getting paid on it in our upline! People who didn’t do the work, who now get extra pay and recognition by the way they count it. We also were refused our contracts, and told no one owns the customers. Ha, So much for passive income they promised, what a joke that is. We had no choice in leaving Q our teams were already stolen by our upline, We had no choice in our pay, we had no choice in our contracts,We had no choice in keeping our profit sharing or our teams together. It was like dealing with the maffia. We spent YEARS of our life on a very expensive, life consuming job, building the Team. There are “leaders” pretending, speaking from stage, that earned it only through their willingness to follow even if it was morally wrong and against Teams own teaching. I for one was not willing to sell out for any amount of money, period. Speak, maybe we should get together and write a book? I’m sure they are not so happy people are on here telling the truth. I Quit be glad you left before all this and more b.s. happened…. there is a whole lot more to our story that I cannot tell here either. I know a whole lot of good people are now gone. Can you imagine doing years of work, sacrifice and have them do this to you? ??? For no other reason than you tried to do the right thing. They discust me! Definately not leaders in my eyes. Leaders don’t lie, and decieve people. They fix their conflicts and fix problems. They pay their workers, not the ones that were standing by watching. They don’t treat people with favoritism, destroy others hard work, edify people that don’t deserve it, lie, steal and cheat. All behind closed doors. Shame on them.

  168. webelieved permalink
    February 24, 2011 10:59 am

    Speak, “We asked for the contract, they refused(said we could travel to view it but they were “exercising their rights” and voided out the old without letting anyone know, and made a new contract and then said we could pay to go to another seminar to sign the new one”, THE NERVE of these liars!!!!
    Pretty much the same here too. Interesting. I wonder how many others this has happended to????? No way in hell were we giving them another dime! I believe they have a clause they can change it anytime they want. Didn’t they complain about Q contract for that same reason??? The irony of it all.

  169. webelieved permalink
    February 24, 2011 11:07 am

    Who the hell is going to go to Michigan to view a contract they already signed that the company refuses to give them and them spend hundreds of dollars to go to a seminar to see a new contract after they already stole your money and now called customers??? They are fricking nutty!!!! that’s the point he knows you wouldn’t . They are discusting, once again using manipulation and money to control others. The leaders that are still there and know all this should be ashamed of themselves….. Shame on them!!!!!

  170. Speak Your Truth permalink
    February 24, 2011 11:12 am

    @I Quit
    Yep and some of those leaders that are still there know this truth and still follow “because they don’t see it this way” because they are going on what they think is “proof” by a little over zealousness of someone who was also trying to survive, that didn’t prove anything because they didn’t follow up to see if it was true!
    What they believe is “truth” came from them reading someone’s PRIVATE EMAIL, Yep, illegal, immoral!!!!!!!!! that one of the guru stated himself, BIG MISTAKE, Try and Deny that one to God! (then which they denined after they were confronted!) Shame on them!
    I wonder how they will justify this to God?
    I can hear it now, wait, wait, I will just get all those who edify me and believe I am “Superior” and “Leading People to the Truth” all of them will tell you I did this for your kingdom!
    For the life of me I do not know how they justify the things they do and have done!
    Yep I am sure they have found “legal loopholes” and in their minds they probably think this is justified, and already know most of what they say is their “side of the story” and to use their own words “God first all the rest need data” (that is close to what they say, anyway)
    When does “legal trump moral?”(maybe on this planet in some minds and certainly not by what they themselves teach!
    But I don’t believe that would do anything for anyone when we answer to the God of Heaven!
    They can coerce and manipulate some human minds, but they honestly have to be insane to think they have HIDDEN anything from GOD!
    I have concluded they have no conscience,( they will come back and say they made some “errors and they aren’t perfect” and everyone sins including me, because we won’t work it out with you, seriously this is INSANE! Yeah, yeah heard that a thousand times to justify your unlawful, immoral, unethical,practices )and only justify to themselves and believe the “end justifies their means”, good luck with that one!
    They are so Arrogant they honestly think people should come to them, UNBELIEVABLE, MOST everyone I know DON’T trust a thing they do let alone ANYTHING they say!

    How does one even describe this arrogance?!!! I bet Vogel would do a great job!

    What comes around goes around and GOD is JUST and see’s how they have lied and hurt so many people. THAT IS WHERE I PUT MY TRUST!

    This is what I loathe the most and believe it is the worst abuse and know they will pay for this, but they have “the policy counsel” preaching on Sundays @ the major’s not a one is an ordained minister or Pastor that I know of ( could have changed since we left but doubtful)
    If they really do read their bible then they should know they will be held accountable, to a higher standard, and OH BOY, I don’t believe God is going to ask to hear their edification and how they are Honest, Honorable,Godly, full of pure Integrity, Character etc..!
    I will leave God who knows all to do the judging!
    Lastly, one of the policy counsel that I know for a fact doesn’t even attend church and never did the whole time I knew him, and they have him preaching to the masses! He told a leader “Orrin taught him how to read the bible, he doesn’t need to go to church!”
    I sincerely fear God for these people and all the ones that are following, KNOWING(they can’t claim ignorance) these truths but sweep it under the rug and justify their actions all for the Almight Dollar, to give the impression they are Christian and they think to change the culture of the World!
    I believe this is seriously a CULT, and everything I have read, confirms this!

    Jesus Christ is the only one who SAVES!
    My faith and relationship is very private to me and don’t like to bring it into this but you can’t not deny or leave it out because this is what they do.

    Yes, I am angry to put it lightly ( I don’t think there is a word in the English
    language), but only because of the destruction,deception, lies,cover-ups, unlawful,unethical,immoral things that they have done to hurt so many people and continue to follow! I am still praying!

    Laurie herself told me “as long as it is RIGHTEOUS anger, it is ok” and you know I have to obey!!
    Not that I would ever again take advice from any who I do not trust.

  171. webelieved permalink
    February 24, 2011 11:30 am

    Speak, AMEN!!!! I believe you can get ordained online for a bit of money. Sad hey? Either way I see pride at its worst. It is disturbing!! I believe I heard of a diamond, saying in a small meeting, “I dont want to sound like Hitler, but we have superior knowledge.” SCARY!!! can we say cult???

  172. Speak Your Truth permalink
    February 24, 2011 11:39 am

    That is very scary how full of themselves they are and they want people to blindly follow!
    Thank God they did what they did, I am soooo glad to be away from these lies!
    I am so sorry that you have suffered also!

  173. Speak Your Truth permalink
    February 24, 2011 11:58 am

    I really am sorry and don’t have any more time but can comment maybe later, I am not ignoring you,I agree the irony of it all!
    There is hope though and have and can move on to the genuine purpose for your life!
    So it really angers me when people try and justify and come on here like people don’t have anything better to do but make up bogus crap about what happens to people.
    As I said the TRUTH will come out and when it does then sites, like these won’t hear us “ranting, spreading negative”
    Well I am sorry for some the TRUTH many appear negative (and I 100% agree, when your trying to protect something) but it is very POSITIVE to those who lived it and can share and maybe by a glimmer of hope, those won’t deny the TRUTH any longer and do what most here did and gave up everthing to live with a clear conscience not matter what the cost!!!!!

  174. I Quit ( and glad I Did) permalink
    February 24, 2011 12:45 pm

    I’m at a loss for words. I feel so sorry for you guys. Now I can understand why there is such anger. Knife in the back doesn’t even begin to describe the feeling I’m sure. I didn’t even experience it and I’m royally pissed off!! People of integrity expect to be believed. But when they’re not they let time prove them right. Remember that one? DAMN.

  175. I Quit ( and glad I Did) permalink
    February 24, 2011 1:22 pm

    Hey believed, Was it you who said you were checking out other biz or was that someone else? I can’t find who said it! What’d ya come up with? Anyway what are you doin now? Have you recovered fully financially yet? I hope so, sounds like it was pretty rough there for a bit… I’m back in the world of 95%, left side money making. AND I’M HAPPY DOING IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  176. webelieved permalink
    February 24, 2011 4:18 pm

    I quit, It was Speak that talked about looking. Speak if you have any ideas I would love to hear them. We are not involved in anything as we don’t trust anyone. Noone. We are not recovered by any means. In fact we are hanging on by a thread. I had given up my business and the other half of we is now under employed earning a third of what they did before Team , and now with no benefits. We can’t afford medical care and medications we need. Our credit is ruined and both our cars are on there last legs with @ 200,000 miles. My health has suffered trememdously from the stress of it all. But I have to say our kids have lost the most. Too much to tell here. Wish we had half of what we spent supporting the Team, flying around the country. Meanwhile our diamond uplines are prancing around like they are the heroes of the free world. It is discusting! The cost of being involved was so high, IT WAS NOT WORTH IT!

  177. webelieved permalink
    February 24, 2011 4:22 pm

    Quit, i am glad you are working again and happy. I wish we would have never seen Team, and kept working we would be much better off. Now we are starting over at below zero. It sucks!!!! One thing I can say though is I kept my integrity and God knows the truth!

  178. February 24, 2011 5:12 pm


    I been following this all day, and am thinking of my own upline. She is very driven, and can get personals underneath her easily. She’s also a strong Christian, and she wants to be the first Black single lady who speaks on stage. She’s really upset that only married couples go up and talk. I wonder if she has seen any shenanigens :-s

    Anyway, all I can do is hope and pray the Woody/Brady duo gets caught.

    I have given away a box of TEAM stuff to another TEAM member, who was stuggling in her business at one time. Now she deleted from her facebook because she can’t deal with my negativity against TEAM. Big Ouch. I still have one more box of TEAM stuff, I think I will use it as campfire fuel. I wouldn’t give them to my former upline because she was so selfish with me that I just don’t want to do anything for her.

    @I quit – I’m so sorry you lost a lot, it is devastating. I wish I can help…*sigh* I can listen and sympathise…


  179. February 24, 2011 5:14 pm

    Oops, I meant @webelieved, who lost everythig, I really, truly hope you can find help. My apologies for the mixup. *blush*

  180. webelieved permalink
    February 24, 2011 6:01 pm

    Even with all the pain, I am glad God saved me from it all. He saved my decieved mind. I believe they used us and then threw us in the trash. Because of that I have a lot to work through….. Your lady friend…. Good luck is all I can say. It is sad your friend cannot handle any opinion except their own on facebook. They don’t realize how decieved they are. That they have been stripped of their ability to critically think. They cannot see how it is weird how they can no longer listen to and validate others, even when they disagree. The very things they did before they were in Team, they can no longer do. That is the us vs them mentality that the Team teaches. It is black and white, and no grey. Them in the know and you as the ignorant, negative idiot in their eyes. They cannot even look at all the information, only their side. That is why you cannot argue with them. They have been taught to disregard any one elses opinion, except the gurus. The arguments seem so logical they believe them.

  181. webelieved permalink
    February 24, 2011 6:35 pm

    Oh yeah forgot to tell you after all that work, we almost lost our home. We had to go to the bank and beg for them to refinance our house so we didn’t lose it in forclosure to another bank. We had previously paid all our debt off and then became buried. Amazing how fast you go backwards when you invest all your eggs in the Team basket like they teach you and then they take it all away. We were put on government assistance for awhile because I was so sick and we were so broke. One time we didn’t have any food for our kids. Some of the worst days of my life. This was after earning it, and becoming debt free outside our mortgage. After earning thousands of dollars a month. How humiliating to have to ask for help after all the work and sacrifices were made. Meanwhile, others with smaller teams were given special deals and taken care of. At the same time Team was making many thousands of dollars off my teams’ tools and tickets. They all discust me, I am so sick over all of this. I just can hope one person will not get involved because of my story. I wish I wouldve looked at all the info in the begining and listened to those that loved me. I could have saved my family a lot of pain.

  182. February 24, 2011 7:28 pm

    @webelieved – btw it’s me, Izzy, I just got a new wordpress acct and apparently it’s signing me in using this name automatically, so I’ll keep it like this.

    I was very, very lucky that my husband never fell for it in the first place and even put his foot down when I wanted to go to the United States for the Feb. 2010 convention. But I’ll tell you just how cold my uplines were (mine upline and my upline’s upline) – they even tried to make me stay EVEN AFTER I proved to them that ***ALL*** of my credit (2 cards and line of credit) were MAXED OUT! They said I didn’t try hard enough, and it would be different if I was Go-Getter for seven months. They will not take no for an answer.

    One thing a minister at my husband’s church said really stood out in my mind. She said “It’s okay to say no!” And she emphasised it. TEAM really does take away (or so it seems) your ability to say no. I believe it’s the most important thing anyone should remember. Being able to say no literally takes away that power from upper-team members. I did try to say no to my upline a few times but she did use slick words to keep me in the business. It hurt that she pressed me to continue when I showed her my credit card statements. We’ve known her for 20 years! The key is, to make sure you are able to stick up for yourself and MEAN no.

    Anyway, keep on repeating myself….*sigh*

    Just tell anyone you know that it’s okay to say no. It doesn’t make you a bad person.

  183. webelieved permalink
    February 24, 2011 7:35 pm

    Thanks Izzy that is a word i am learning to use a lot more 🙂 How sad they don’t care about your debt. I know people that filed bankruptcy because they couldn’t pay their credit card bills from Team and Quixtar. It is so discusting. They should be teaching financial responsibility in spending. Only spend what you need. Get it at the Library if you can. Yeah right you will never hear that. Your upline will take you to the tool table to spend your money. You’ll be so excited you won’t know what happened till you get the bill.

  184. Barry Broke permalink
    February 24, 2011 8:33 pm


    I wouldn’t be surprised if Claude Hamilton made this comment: “I dont want to sound like Hitler, but we have superior knowledge.” ???

  185. M & C - NB, Canada permalink
    February 24, 2011 9:01 pm

    We want to thank all of you for sharing your stories of truth. This is my first post, I’ve never done this before but I feel compelled to share our story.

    We quit the Team 6 months ago and it was the best decision. We were on the Team for almost 3 years. When it was all said and done, we had accumilated over 20k in credit card debt to keep up with the meetings and materials because of this ‘business’. We heard that a ‘Policy Council’ member (not mentioning any names but their picture is on the front of the Team website) has declared bankrupcy multiple times since joining Team. I wonder how they can have ‘financial’ cd’s in the system preaching on finances when they can’t handle their own finances? This is when we realized the smoke and mirrors and decided this wasn’t the right business for us anymore. Another thing to consider… (my husband is an accountant) … run the math…

    $25 for a local seminar ticket.
    If a policy council member has 2000 tickets in his group, this is $50,000 in revenue. Now because of Profit Sharing, perhaps 50% goes into a pot to be shared, but ‘perhaps’ 50% goes directly into the pockets of this Policy Council member?

    $25,000 per month JUST on local semianr tickets. These numbers are realistic. Perhaps the overall Team is sells 10,000 tickets per month. At $25 per ticket (or $30) this is a lot of money… $250,000. WHO SPLITS THIS MONEY?

    It’s mostly the Policy Council and Round Table members (20 people?) this is where the real money is being made. The thousands of others who are hard working are slaves to the few.

    God Bless and I hope you make the right decision for your family.

  186. TRUTH SEEKER permalink
    February 24, 2011 9:47 pm

    I CAN’T BELIEVE that The Team office just posted on the Team website… Orin and Chris have made the list onto the list of Leadership Gurus of 2011!!!!!!!!!! Yahoooo! Yipee! Horray!

    Who is this company which creates this list??? It’s a company called:

    Leadership Gurus International
    121 Arundel Rd,
    Birmingham B14 5UE
    United Kingdom

    **** Please pass me a beer****

    This is a website which people go to to vote on who ‘THEY’ think should be the Top Leadership Guru’s… this is BALONEY!!!!

    This list is NOT factual. I could create a list/website today and call it the GREATEST MEN WHO LIVE ON EARTH. And if 34 people vote for me, then I’m considered the GREATEST MAN on Earth (which I’m not disputing). This list of Leadership gurus is toted by Orrin, Chris and the Team office (and speakers on stage) as if it’s the Trilateral Commission of the World. This is so fake and overzealous, it makes me want to puke!

    PEOPLE WAKE UP! Orrin and Chris are ONLY on this list because Team members (brainwashed) think they walk on water and breath fire. I know they don’t breath fire (Im not sure of the water) but this is a JOKE… Top Leadership Guru’s for 2011…LOL Give me a break!!!

    **** pass me another beer, this blog is heating up****

  187. TRUTH SEEKER permalink
    February 24, 2011 9:51 pm

    Amthrax: You should move this original post from Nov 10th, 2010 to the top of your blog. It seems like the main topic of conversation… a repost would be kool, thanks for what you do. ~Cheers!

  188. Will permalink
    February 24, 2011 11:04 pm

    I have to agree with TRUTH SEEKER here: “Amthrax: You should move this original post from Nov 10th, 2010 to the top of your blog. It seems like the main topic of conversation… a repost would be kool, thanks for what you do. ~Cheers!”

    Also, I am sorry that I missed out on this thread the past two days. HOLY TORPEDO BATMAN, that was ALOT to take in!!

    First of all, @webelieved and @Speak Your Truth – Your stories ECHO everything that my family has experienced over the years. I have been bitter and trying to bounce back, but it is a slow journey back to the light (at least for me). I feel like there is no justice and that is the hardest pill for me to swallow right now. I am beyond SICK of hearing all about everyone’s similar stories on how they were hurt, mis-lead, lied to and SCREWED in this organization. The madness needs to STOP!

    I too threw out close to $7,000 in brand new tools that I had purchased for my trunk and tools that I got stuck with after people in my team would drop off system and leave me with the bill. This was pre direct fulfillment days where individual ibos could not get their tools drop shipped straight to their door step. Because of this I had to purchase all of the TAPES and CDS for my entire group and distribute the tools and collect monies. I am sure I am bringing up some painful memories for you all as you remember doing the same damn thing. The crappiest policy that the Team office had that Orrin Woodward would sell to us profit sharers, is that there was NO REFUND POLICY and that we were responsible for any tools that did not get sold!! REMEMBER THIS #$%&??? For those of you that do not know this, I promise I am not making it up…I couldn’t come up with something that skewed if I tried. Orrin would say “It is your business and you need to be responsible for any tools and tickets that people don’t want.” I remember getting stuck easily with $200 /mo just in tools and tickets because people would drop off system and not pay you. And ORRINS answer was TOUGH LUCK!!! How does this guy ever think that he will make it to 1 Million People????

    Maybe he will get close to that mark, but he won’t GET to a million…


    he will GO THRU a million!

    The sad part is that is true. He is just burning thru new blood each month. Hopefully, people that are still in will slowly wake up, see the signs and pay attention to the LACK OF RESULTS .

    @webelieved and @Speak Your Truth – You both kind of hinted about not being able to share everything you know here.

    Is there another forum or medium that you plan to use to air out more dirty team monavie secrets? I am anxious to hear the rest of your stories.

    @Speak Your Truth – If I read one of your posts correctly, it sounded like you were going to create a blog and talk about mind control and manipulation. WHEN CAN I READ THIS? Please share, please tell, please start writing!!!

    oh yeah, and @TRUTH SEEKER – the whole GURU thing cracks me up too. I wish a journalist would research the origins of that site to uncover who is behind it and how it got started. I would bet anything Orrin pays a monthly fee to someone to manage that site for him.

  189. Speak Your Truth permalink
    February 24, 2011 11:27 pm

    @Truth Seeker
    **** pass me another beer, this blog is heating up****

    I am dying!!!!!!
    Have you all watched the movie “Believe?”

    We all know it is bogus, It is manipulation!
    They are all about YOU EARNING IT, at least everyone else should!

    Just like the #1 best seller that Orrin can ever speak without self-promoting, I still have some anyone want any?!!!!
    I remember the hundreds of orders we had to place for cases and cases and cases of those books.
    Yep how generous of them “giving” the proceeds to the charity,makes them look good, but most probably don’t know it was only for the hard covered books(that there was any donations) which those were the ones that were used for the “promotion”, then they turned around and forced it down on Book of the Month( soft cover that was straight up profit), NO giving there.
    But hey most people probably didn’t catch that, they just believed they were those Generous, Honest, Humble, Pure of Heart, Integrity, Character, Guru’s Oh Shoot just look up every great word in the dictionary and their you have it! They are all inclusive!
    Just like how they wanted all the leaders blogging then linking to Orrin so that would rank him, we know this because he told us to do this.
    Just like when Orrin wants to deter people from one of these sites he will use the word “scam” in his article tell the leaders to TELL EVERYONE to read it and get it so when searched, it will rank higher and show up for his article and not some “negitive truth site.”
    Just like the IBOA Board just send a voice com through thousands of people to vote. WALA just like that they get voted in!
    When you have a large number of many leaders building those big numbers it is pretty easy to get pretty much any title you want, just send down the marching orders, it is amazing how that word of mouth fly’s thru out your teams within hours!
    Funny how they sarcasticaly criticise people who would take pride in their accomplishments,( like all the plagues on the wall for your degree’s)but they can’t wait to self-promote all their claimed titles.

    Just more for their “bag of tricks” except there are a whole bunch of people that see through those “image of lies” and are starting to show up on site’s like these!
    More and More are speaking out the truth, glad you are all here!

  190. Will permalink
    February 24, 2011 11:35 pm

    One thing I researched about the FAKE GURU AWARDS on Orrin in Chris that I found interesting was that when you do a search for leadership guru, it is mainly sites of Orrin Woodward that pops up where he has linked to that award site, blogged about, self-promoted it or has some other leader on a friends site tweeting, and blogging about his Grace.

    This tells me that out of the top 25 or 30 leaders that they choose, none of those other leaders even care about the award, know that it exists and there are ZERO credible news sites or reputable organizations that also promote the awards. It is strickly promoted and showcased within the MLM worlds of Orrin Woodward and Chris Brady.



  191. Will permalink
    February 24, 2011 11:44 pm

    I just realized that there is so much content here from all of the COMMENTS of ex-Team members that a new person would have a hard time finding where to start reading (If they even read the entire list of comments).

    It seems like we ought to look at a way of grouping our topics on Orrin Woodward and Team and WHY people should not get involved. I appreciate all of the sites that are out there, and Amthrax for giving us this theraputic way to vent and HEAL, but I also think we should think of ways to organize our thoughts, issues, concerns in a quick easy to read format for a newbie that is looking for information on this scam.

    What is everyone else’s thoughts? Amthrax any ideas on how to accomplish this?

    There are just so many different issues that I would hate for people to miss all of these. Maybe we can just do a new post highlighting a quick SNAP SHOT of all of the bullet points of issues discussed out of all of these comments. So, maybe do a SUMMARY of all of our comments in a clear, concise, orderly fashion.

    I am sure that between all of the commenters on here…we could break up the work and send you an email on bullet points to include in the summary of all of these ex-Teammers commenting. I think this type of post would be a good WARNING for all new people looking at the business or looking to get out. Let’s dumb it down for them a bit!!!!

  192. Will permalink
    February 24, 2011 11:48 pm

    In case you all have noticed…
    ….I can’t sleep.

    I am so FIRED UP about all the unethical, immoral things that Orrin and team are doing.

    Oh gosh, I just said FIRED UP. Somebody BEAT me, PLEASE?!!!!

  193. Speak Your Truth permalink
    February 25, 2011 12:13 am

    I am so sorry you and all the others had to suffer this same garbage.
    I will begin writing on the blog soon, I promise and will let you and all the others know. I have been reading and taking notes, the thing you said that made me the saddest it is still effecting you and is a slow journey. I know it will not go away without some help, but with a support group and the “right knowledge’ sound familiar, except I mean this in a real way, to heal we need to educate ourselves on cults and that is what I have been doing, hence the idea of blog thing.
    Next I will confirm your eating tools and tickets 100% always has been that way and always will be because the guys that are rakin in the real cash will not lose a red cent but will allow everyone else to get buried, I DO BELIEVE YOU cuz we lived that for well over a decade!

    You are going to laugh but one of my best friends in the business and I talked about starting a Seminar for Cult intervention and teaching, life skills etc! We have been trying to heal and brain storm for over 2 years!
    Now I am all for helping people heal and as a matter of fact I want to go back to school and pursue this, BUT my friend more than me wanted to do something with the seminar thing but I don’t know about you but I really have a hard time still indoctrinated some and certain things just don’t settle well especially anything remotely related to this experience from hell.
    I will say this though I will start blogging and will be sharing some good help there. That same friend and I are planning to go to a Seminar recommended by a cult expert. I really have to thank my friend she did the leg work for that and we are excited to go and more importantly we NEED to go. So Hope I can be of more help soon to you!

    Yes, Yes and more Yes’s to all of your story, we were flat broke when they stole our profit-sharing too! So many similarities it is disturbing! Thanks for sharing it helps us all!

    @ M & C, Truth Seeker, Barry Broke & I Quit all who just came here seems just today, it takes guts to do this, thanks for coming!

    @Amthrax- I knew it would be a matter of time but I guess the flood gates have been opened thank you!
    @Aurora, Izzy, Vogel, and all the rest thank you so much for your support, you guys are hilarious!

  194. Speak Your Truth permalink
    February 25, 2011 12:26 am

    I cannot not sleep either but you are hilarious, great idea’s on categorizing the topics and warnings.
    I can’t help myself but won’t use the rhetoric but you must be the “organized type” which we defintely need, I believe Amthrax is too and seems pretty “layed back type”.
    It is really hard to not spout out the language of the Team Personalities and such. It has been over 2 years and that garbage still wants to come out, not that info is bad, I just have a hard time with anything related, it all just seems like everything was a lie!

  195. Ryan Seewald - Job Free Musician. permalink
    February 25, 2011 3:33 am

    Hey guys! =)
    How’s it rocking mates?

  196. I Quit ( and glad I Did) permalink
    February 25, 2011 5:25 am


  197. webelieved permalink
    February 25, 2011 5:46 am

    I went to bed and awoke to a whole lot of comments! Will, oh yeah I remember that! I believe we lost Thousands of dollars in tools that people would order and not want! One time I had a guy buy $500 worth of tools at a major and then I had to give him the refund. The stuff was useless to me as I already had too much. I was ticked. The worst is that I wasn’t even working with him! He was a downline in someone’s second leg. But I had to drive an hour and give him the refund, according to my diamond.
    You are right they will never get to a million! It is so sad the guy with the small team doesnt know all this, I didn’t until I was trapped. Than your stuck, you have invested so much time and money, have so many involved you cannot quit. It is then you realize you have no rights, the top 6 or so decide it all for you. You have no voting rights. And you never see any financial statements. You just keep on keeping on and hope your leaders have integrity. …
    We were always left holding the bag. If they weren’t paying us we would’ve had to quit. When people ask us where did the money go? They have no idea. It was like money in money out, gas, babysitters, tools and more tools, events $$$$$. We kept thousands in our trunk.
    Speak, You are hilarious!!! I wish I knew all that years ago. Ranking themselves etc. I believe that is why they changed the name from Team of Destiny. To get rid of the negative naysayers. And oh yep that is true about the Book. They had us all preorder it to rank it. Yep we collected orders from our downline. So now he can brag. Ohhhh I am sooo sick of the bragging. Yep just send out the marching orders! The Zombies will follow. I did. How embarassing.
    OMG Will you said FIRED UP!! LOL I hate a lot of phrases now and that is one.
    I Quit……I LOVE YOUR EXCITEMENT !!I WOULD RATHER BE RIGHT TOO and the job thing I am working on. Too bad all of us with integrity couldn’t start a real business, I could think of a group of great trustworthy, hardworking people that would be great partners!!

  198. webelieved permalink
    February 25, 2011 5:57 am

    Quit, I CANNOT STOP LAUGHING!!!!! Thanks for a great start to the day!

  199. TRUTH SEEKER permalink
    February 25, 2011 6:00 am

    Speak Your Truth: Thanks for the welcome and I’m happy to be here.

    More people need to share their experiences. I bet here is hundreds and possibly thousands of people who share a similar storey.

    Lets hear it!?

  200. I Quit ( and glad I Did) permalink
    February 25, 2011 6:14 am

    Hey folks- We are only promised today right? Crap happens. We do our best and leave the rest to God. He will never give us more than we can handle right? I know sometimes it DEFINITELY does not feel that way but when we look back we know its true. There IS life after team. I appreciate the opportunity to vent, especially to fellow screw job victims. Lesson learned. Now we can heal and move forward (minor gag reflex) onto better things and better times.

  201. webelieved permalink
    February 25, 2011 6:24 am


    Everthing here is just my opinion.
    Speak, I too have been reading about Cults. Very scary. One of the books I have read is Steve Hasan’s Combatting Cult Mind Control. and his Bite Model, at wow is all I can say. The Bite model has really opened my eyes.I believe that is why no one could argue me out.I believe I had my ability to critically think taken away. It happened by going to Events, listening to hours of cds, etc. Everything became team, and my goal. I actually forgot how to have fun.I felt guilty for working all the time, and I felt guilty if I wasnt working! There was always something wrong with me, according to my upline. It could never be them or something wrong with the business. We were so isolated we couldn’t relate to those who were “uninformed”. I remember when I left I felt guilty when I first watched movies or the news! More guilt when I stopped going to opens. I put up with tons of abuse and stress before I finally stopped. I couldn’t stay because of the hipocrisy and yet I couldn’t leave my friends. It was so scary. I didn’t understand what was wrong with me…. now I know. I didn’t want to even admit it could be true. The above are all signs of a destructive group. But eventually I could not deny the truth. Read it and you will weep. Also if you know someone in and want to help them, read the book (Combatting Cult Mind Control). It will help, do not argue, fight etc. it will only push them further in and you may lose your chance, that is what happened to me. I had been so taught that normal people were the enemy, the us vs them. People outside were ignorant etc. They didn’t understand. They were broke. They were dream stealers…etc. etc. All the people I loved became the enemy to my dreams. Noone around me could get me out. They make themselves seem set apart from all other groups, even if they are in the same business. The book Merchants of Deception, Eric Schreibler helped me see that. I truly thought we were not the same as Quixtar. We were different than all the other Quixtar/Amway groups. Wow was i messed up, reading Deception helped me see clearly. Basically we were the same except they were more honest than our group. We were not taught to sell the product to customers, and yet O sued Amway for not having customers!????? What???????? He was our teacher. OMG the irony. I couldn’t even see this, scary! It was all about recruiting into the system. If someone is not in one of these groups and doesn’t get it, read Deception first. Or if you were in you may be able to replace your name with his in many instances. Eric Schreibler the author took his site down, but if you look online you will find a link and can download for free. Happy Reading!!! We could have a book review… No a book club oh that’s right our upline may get mad!LOL

    p.s. no i am not a dream stealer, or a fanatic. I truly hope I can help someone from feeling the pain I experienced when I realized I was used and helped decieve people. 😦

    p.s. the above is just my opinion

  202. I Quit ( and glad I Did) permalink
    February 25, 2011 6:34 am

    and a fine opinion it is. I experienced all the same feelings during the un-plugging process. I am happy to report that I enjoy sitting on my couch at home and staring at the ceiling attempting to accomplish NOTHING!!

  203. I Quit ( and glad I Did) permalink
    February 25, 2011 6:40 am

    The indoctrinated will love to use that one! God forbid one to relax once in a while. Since I said that its obvious I’m a “couch jockey” (remember that one?) Somehow though its different for Guzzardo to veg out in his hot tub. Or drive his Jeeps over rocks. If an important person does it, it must be for an important purpose!

  204. webelieved permalink
    February 25, 2011 6:43 am

    no not him, only a few more guesses and you will have it! It was another red flag for me. You only say that if you are delusional or very prideful!

    M & C, I bet it is more than $25,000 for diamonds! It used to be around $10,000-$15,000/month for Round Table members. Wonder why they want to sell you more tools and tickets? It should be disclosed up front that your upline is making money when you buy tools, so people can make a decisions based on the facts and their budget! Not based on high pressure from upline who wants the money out of your pocket book! And speaking of transparency, how bout an IDS of Team Profit sharing, oh thats right, we will never see that! Just like we won’t see the contracts we signed.

  205. webelieved permalink
    February 25, 2011 6:46 am

    I Quit, SO TRUE! We could relax when we were dead, which almost happened to me by the way! I love it a couch jockey hey! YOU BETTER GET A DREAM. YOU lOSER YOU! LOL OH I CANNOT STOP LAUGHING….

  206. webelieved permalink
    February 25, 2011 6:54 am

    You couch jockey, “you must not care about your family, or changing the world you know they have assembled the greatest minds in the world….” don’t you. LOL. If I had cared about my family I would’ve noticed how they suffered from my involvement and brainwashing, and quit a long time ago!!! Yes one more form of manipulation!
    I am so proud of the people that left!!! You all deserve recognition for your integrity and character, for making the TOUGH decisions. I believe God will have his justice in the end.

  207. webelieved permalink
    February 25, 2011 7:17 am

    Quit, oh yep NO RESTING you are a diamond.(another cult tactic) It is ok if you are a guru. Or if it’s for a good purpose like a promotion to earn your way to rock climb, or say go to Orrin’s or Chris’. Oh then you can pay your way there, for your car, flight, food etc. Oh yes and then when you come back make sure you brag about how great the guru is, so others will want to do the same. But don’t forget to tell them how much your trip cost you in money and time away from your family. You are soo cool. Remember like a duck, calm on the outside and running under the water. I bet they are paddling fast now, their wings are probably flapping too, from all the lies they have told.

  208. I Quit ( and glad I Did) permalink
    February 25, 2011 7:55 am

    I just thought of something. “We’re entertaining ourselves to death.” – Orrin Woodward. He tweets. He blogs. He facebooks….. Ok class, ponder and discuss.

  209. February 25, 2011 8:15 am

    I would like see more individualised stories posted and comments afterwards, more topics posted, etc. That was a good idea, Will! ❤ I think LazyMan has a blog called Team Scam – I think the address is, I'll have to go back to see if we can set something up there. Also, I'm going to put a big fat post on my own WordPress blog – my story. (can't say how long it'll be, though)

  210. Vogel permalink
    February 25, 2011 8:18 am

    The Leadership Gurus website has all the markings of a scam. The site lists an anonymous contact address at 121 Arundel Road in Birmingham UK – do a Google map search and you’ll see that this is not a commercial property but rather someone’s modest residence. The site lists no contact person or the names of any of the individuals who operate it. The site’s URL was registered anonymously through a proxy domain registry in Scottsdale Arizona (Wild West Domains), which is more than a bit suspect for a company based out of the UK. The domain registration details do not list a contact person; this only occurs when the registrant purposely withholds the information; and it is a red flag.

    You’ve all assessed this quite accurately. It’s a BS shell organization setup to give out meaningless vanity awards so that guys like Woodwart can puff up their resumes and dupe people.

    BTW, I couldn’t agree more about the movie “Believe” – hysterical and frighteningly true to life! The film’s creator, Loki Mulholland, deserves a big pat on the back.

  211. webelieved permalink
    February 25, 2011 8:40 am

    Quit,Sounds like he is entertaining himself to death! Hypocrisy??

  212. webelieved permalink
    February 25, 2011 8:47 am

    Thanks Vogel for the techy info. Oh the light is shed once again. Too bad more teamsters wouldn’t read this site.

  213. webelieved permalink
    February 25, 2011 8:48 am

    Vogel, wasn’t Guzzardo building a house in AZ?

  214. Speak Your Truth permalink
    February 25, 2011 9:10 am

    Thanks so much for your research abilities, you can see the flood gates have been opened and as someone else mentioned there are thousands more that will be conjuring up enough guts to tell their unfortunate experiences but thank God for sites like these where people don’t have to be oppressed any longer!
    If something happens to this site because of the so called “negative truth”, I call it reality truth and Healing!

    You know Orrin “will do what-ever-it-takes” pressuring others to use their money and power like he wanted Amway to do by taking out the critics.

    But I see this as a rock between a hard spot for them, because if he tries to sue (there would be thousands from these sites that would be happy to share what they have done and make it sound loud in the PUBLIC) it is Public Knowledge and if he doesn’t it still is public knowledge and freedom of speech. He only agrees with the freedom of speech if it showers the world with his glorious Guru, Honest, Humble, you know he, like I believe, izzy or aurora referred to the 8th wonder of the World!
    I busted a gut when I read this!

    Vogel did you ever have these experience with Orrin?

  215. I Quit ( and glad I Did) permalink
    February 25, 2011 9:15 am

    check out Guzz’s web site. Looks like the AZ thing did happen. Hence my crack about his Jeep. A former downline of mine called me about a year or so ago and mentioned AZ too. He wanted to know if I was comin’ back. Hee hee, hoo hoo, ha ha!! NOT! (that was the answer)

  216. Speak Your Truth permalink
    February 25, 2011 9:26 am

    @I Quit
    I’m pretty sure Guzzardo sold his land (that he was going to build a house)in AZ but I believe he bought or is renting one in New Mexico.
    Oh that is too funny you didn’t want to re-activate and begin building Orrin’s million person dream?

    I really wish people would use their common sense and realize the only dream and bank accounts they are building is Orrin’s and the rest of the Policy Counsel’s.

    This is a very hard pill to swallow when you realize that is exactly what you are doing! That my friends is exactly why they have to brainwash you because no-one in their right mind would sign up for that program!!!!!

  217. Speak Your Truth permalink
    February 25, 2011 9:27 am

    @I Quit
    It’s like the where is Waldo only the where is George?!

  218. webelieved permalink
    February 25, 2011 9:34 am

    Vogel, I wish I had you for a fact finder when I got started..You would have saved me! Were you on Team? Do you know Orrin, Chris or Tim? Just wondering..I love your passion and facts. No one can argue with them. LOL.
    I’ve been wondering when you were going to comment 🙂 It is hard to tell the truth, and harder when no one responds to it. I am so glad for everyone here that is getting the courage up to tell their story. It is helping me to tell mine. There’s a lot of crap I know, that I have been keeping inside all these years! It is sooo healing to let it out, finally.

  219. Speak Your Truth permalink
    February 25, 2011 9:37 am

    There’s a lot of crap I know, that I have been keeping inside all these years! It is sooo healing to let it out, finally.

    Amen! And I am sure for you as it is for us we have many more “ACES IN THE HOLE!”
    So happy this is healing for you as I bet everyone on here would totally agree!

  220. webelieved permalink
    February 25, 2011 9:51 am

    Does anyone know who keeps the money from the Super Opens/special meetings?

  221. February 25, 2011 9:56 am

    I always assumed the money went towards the hotel rents and cleanup crew, and perhaps the speakers’ overnight stay if they’ve come a long ways, since the opens are always held in the evenings.

  222. TRUTH SEEKER permalink
    February 25, 2011 10:00 am

    Here’s how the tool structure of the Policy ‘leaders’ on Team is broken down:

    Orrin Woodward Orrin Woodward Orrin Woodward
    (sponcered) and (sponcered) and (partnered with)
    Chris Brady George Guzzardo Claude Hamilton

    Chris Brady
    Bill Lewis

    Bill Lewis
    Tim Marks

    I’d say Orrin is making the most ‘tool’ and seminar money!

  223. UnKnown permalink
    February 25, 2011 10:27 am


    You probably know already and your asking if others know, but just in case…

    Yes, whomever does the open meeting pockets the money made off the open meeting. It pays for the hotel costs and expenses. Everyone working the event works it for free. the Team office has changed this process on/off many times, by requesting that the Team office will pay for the hotel costs and pay the speaker at the open meeting $50-$100 to do the open and then the rest of the money would go to the Team office for profit sharing. This was because some locations in MI or WI were bringing in 1000 plus people and the person speaking would make $4-5 thousand. Perhaps this was different in different Policy Council’s businesses. Perhaps some Policy Council members were actually pocketing these funds that they were asking from their ‘leaders’ who did the open but then had to ‘report’ the money back tot he Team office therefore they would give this money to their PC leader but it never ended up being sent to the Team office (who would know) so he deposits it into his bank account? I wouldn’t be surprised.

    I’d like to see this site turn from a gossip site to a whistle blowing site. I think there’s a lot of truth out there that readers want to share but are afraid that ‘somehow’ Amthrax will be able to tell who or where this information is coming from… which could lead back to those people that don’t want the truth to come out… maybe we can get some reasurance from Amthrax??

  224. Speak Your Truth permalink
    February 25, 2011 11:06 am

    @truth seeker
    Yep is anyone naive enough to believe you will make more money than them. The only way I know that anyone makes more money than their upline is if their given system & ticket counts, special deals,(oh in theory you could build a bigger business but if you had an upline like ours he would blow people out for us, whole legs, by even telling them to quit because “he didn’t like their questioning their practices, yep) or they are speaking more which is choosen by the Policy Counsel sometimes others if you happen to be spending YOUR OWN dollars to invest in the opens and seminars, This is criminal to me but you know it’s all for TEAM= Together Everyone Achieves More,(we were so loyal, it is discusting!) this is a very sore spot for us because the team policy was if the opens and seminars MADE money you sent the PROFITS INTO THEM but if it LOST money lets say they send a triple 100 speaker
    ( their pay was bigger than turbo 100 etc.)into the seminar you are responsible for those Loses, then if the numbers didn’t cover all the expenses it would be “Out-of-Your-Pocket” because no way was the Team going to eat that cost (they only supplied the tools but you are responsible for all the inventory etc. and they wouldn’t want to to sell your own tools because that would be your profit plus you would have to invest 10’s of thousans!), so for example if the seminar lost $1200 they would automatically deduct this from your profit-sharing check , YEP, lost thousands this way!
    Does this sound like FAIR BUSINESS PRACTICE OR GREED to you, YOU DECIDE!?
    So shouldn’t be any doubt how they opperate and keep the profits for themselves!
    Now do you ever hear them TEACH TRANSPARENCY and want YOU to be profitable because they are so genuine, loving, caring and Godly?
    Again, TRANSPARENCY, WHAT HYPOCRISY, that doen’t pretain to them, only to the REST of the world!

  225. webelieved permalink
    February 25, 2011 11:12 am

    Have I have seen hundreds flock to specialmeetings/super opens? Now class, conservatively what is $10 x @300 – $300 (for a room)? What does that leave?
    Oh $2,700 …?
    Did someone put a bug in my ear that the diamonds spoke out of the goodness of their heart because they cared so much or did I then hear the Diamonds kept the money?? I wonder if they paid taxes on it, (if they recieved it of course)? Did I hear they sometimes bought food for the meetings after the meetings occasionally? Did i also hear that the leaders, spoke for free at Mens’ and Womens’ Leadership month after month, while the Team raked in the cash????? I wonder if that was added to the profit sharing??? I guess we will never know the answers to these questions….

  226. February 25, 2011 11:13 am

    @Unknown, @AmyS, @TruthSeeker, @BarryBroke, @M&C Canada:

    All of your comments are coming from the same IP address. In the interest of everyone, can you please stick to using one name instead of multiple aliases? Otherwise, I’m going to have to start moderating your posts from now on.

  227. February 25, 2011 11:20 am

    The TeamScam web site is a good place to start. You can also find other articles that I’ve written about TEAM and Orrin Woodward here:

    Lots of content there, and will be a good starting point for further discussion.

  228. webelieved permalink
    February 25, 2011 11:30 am

    Unknown, I believe it is becoming a whistle blowers site! I know for me, I believe most to be the truth of many people’s experiences. Some may want to call it gossip because they have an agenda, or because they were not up high enough, or close enough to someone high up in the heirarchy of Team to see these things. I am so ashamed of being a part of the abuses this group has put upon people. The only way I see of repenting is telling the truth. So others have a choice in how they choose to spend their time and money, without deception involved. I can only hope people see this info before they are indoctrinated by the system and become slaves to it. Or that a mother, a brother a spouse can get enough info to help loved ones get out. I know very good people that are trapped mentally by this crap and it saddens me to the core. Many are unwilling to even look at the facts before them. Again just my opinions.

  229. webelieved permalink
    February 25, 2011 11:35 am

    Amthrax, Thanks for keeping it on the up and up!

  230. webelieved permalink
    February 25, 2011 12:07 pm

    Unkown, Amy S. ??? said “I think there’s a lot of truth out there that readers want to share but are afraid that ‘somehow’ Amthrax will be able to tell who or where this information is coming from… which could lead back to those people that don’t want the truth to come out… maybe we can get some reasurance from Amthrax??”
    How bout it Amthrax? So far I have seen you write some great articles and you have had this site up for years. But I definately don’t want to sway anyone. I think first you wouldn’t share the limited info you do have and second you know you will lose your credibility and you would have a whole lot of lawsuits. Am I right? Please enlighten us…. Also how much info do you get off ip addresses. PEOPLE ARE AFRAID, so please tell us so everyone can speak out freely.

  231. February 25, 2011 12:46 pm


    All I ask from people is that they represent themselves correctly when leaving comments. The only information that I receive is what you enter in the comments field (name, email and web site) and your IP address. If I see multiple posts from “different” people coming from the same IP address, I become suspicious that someone is trying to game the system and leave false comments. This happened most recently in the posts about Dean Kosage. The IP address provides the general area where the person is posting from, but not the actual location.

    While there are cases where people can be behind the same IP address, I think it’s unlikely in the case of this blog. There are also ways to obscure or mask one’s ip address (i.e. logging into a server that’s located away from where you really are), but I have no reason (yet) to believe that people are doing this.

    You should feel free to speak freely about your experiences. If you are concerned about a lawsuite, I would shy away from making any remarks that could be construed of as threats or slander. Focus on the truth of your own experiences, and you should be fine. Any hard evidence of wrongdoing on the part of TEAM is also fair to post on this site.

  232. Vogel permalink
    February 25, 2011 12:47 pm

    I read up on the latest flurry of posts and then headed out for a quick workout, but the whole time, I couldn’t stop thinking about y’all on this blog. First, I have to say how glad I am to see such expressions of gratitude from people; and by that I mean gratitude to simply be alive, free of TEAM, and free to express your thoughts and feelings. THAT is what life is all about. You are truly free now.

    Those who have been victimized by Monavie and TEAM have paid a hefty price – financially and emotionally. And now, as more people are stepping forward and sharing what they could not previously bring themselves to think, let alone utter, the healing is beginning.

    Several people have asked whether I have ever been involved in MLM. The answer is no. I was fortunate to have had my non-MLM career path laid out long ago, based on MANY years in university paying my dues (and I was no silver spoon kid – I worked to pay my own tuition from day 1). But as I said, I was lucky to have had such an opportunity because not everyone does. I sympathize with those decent, honest hard-working people who, for whatever reason, did not have the doors to a lucrative career wide open to them. To all those blue- and white-collar workers who toil away at honest work for modest wages, I salute you, for you are the backbone of this country. These are people who keep their envy and materialism in check and are simply grateful to have a steady job and the love of their family and friends. That’s what life is really all about. Too many people spend their lives chasing after money, thinking that once they get enough, happiness will follow. But that path, as we have all been told, is nothing more than an illusion. Having money in the bank doesn’t magically bring happiness; it just alleviates the pain of poverty. But life is filled with many greater challenges, and some people never get to face them because they are too consumed with chasing after the almighty dollar.

    The reason why I expend so much effort exposing the truth about Monavie (and the charlatans who run it) is because, through my training, it’s very easy for me to recognize the lies. I realize that not everyone has the requisite skills to do this, and it’s certainly not because they are fools. Scams like Monavie are very carefully engineered to be convincing and difficult to see through. That’s why they all follow the exact same script and modus operandi – because it’s a tried and tested method for effectively bilking money from people without their realizing it.

    My other inspiration is that I despise the fact that these kingpins are not only extolling materialism and wickedness, but they are using Christ and the Bible to do it. The contradiction between the words of the Bible and the actions of Monavie’s kingpins is incredibly offensive. Christ preached humility, non-materialism, charity, generosity, loving thy neighbor (in a manner not contingent on whether or not someone buys juice from you or joins your MLM), and caring for those who are less fortunate. Do you think for one second that if Christ were alive today he wouldn’t be turning over the tables of the TEAM tools salesmen and casting them out just as he did to the moneylenders in Matthew 21:12? Everything about Monavie and TEAM is antithetical to the teachings of Christianity. Those who would pervert their religion in an attempt to defraud people are blasphemers, plain and simple.

    Monavie and TEAM do not create better people. They preach exclusion, paranoia, idolatry, vanity, materialism, resentment, nepotism, and close-mindedness – and they are mindboggling liars. Adding insult to injury, they aren’t even delivering on their central promise of wealth (at least not for anyone but themselves). These so-called “leaders” demand to be treated like gods, and yet the only place they are leading people is off the edge of a cliff and into the abyss of empty materialism. In the process of shepherding people on this soul-crushing journey, the leaders utterly destroy people’s abilities for independent thought; their relationships; their savings; their faith in everything other than the scam itself. How can they possibly atone for inflicting such damage?

    The “leaders” create odes in praise of themselves; and these dissonant paeans couldn’t be more illegitimate – it’s all just lies and puffery. Dallin Larsen isn’t a “man of vision with a proven track record of success”; he’s a petty thief who pulls the same scam over and over again, and then packs up the tent and moves to the next scam whenever he’s on the verge of having to atone for his sins.

    What fills my heart, however, is seeing the victims of this scam slowly awakening from their slumber and banding to together to offer hope and support to one another. That no doubt pleases the Lord too. And if anyone deserves edification, it is people like Amthrax and Lazyman who have unselfishly provided venues like this for the free exchange of ideas and support. This is a noble gesture that is worthy of our respect and admiration, for they serve without asking for anything at all in return. They recognized that people were being hurt and they did the right thing to put an end to it.

    This is your time to heal and to shine. When you feel ready, we can talk about other ways to make you all whole again, like a class action lawsuit so that you can undo some of the financial damage that’s been inflicted on you and see to it that justice is served against your victimizers. In the mean time, you all now have something far more important than money – your freedom; your integrity; your soul. You’ve thrown the shackles aside.

    I’ll always be here for you if ever you need me…and it will never cost you so much as a penny. I’m YOUR servant.

  233. webelieved permalink
    February 25, 2011 12:56 pm

    Amthrax, I’m guessing devulging just the STATE whistle blowers are from would tell who they are and expose them to possible b.s. lawsuits. And although I know of none being sued, I do know a lot of people have been severely hurt and financially devastated. They are afraid to speak out, and do not want to be exposed, because of course they don’t have millions to defend themselves. I would hope, where the IP address comes from and other info, would not be exposed. However, could more than one person be at the same ip address (say at a cafe or at work) with different computers hanging out with each other? I don’t understand how this works. I do appreciate knowing when someone is possibly using different names though thanks for pointing it out.

  234. I Quit ( and glad I Did) permalink
    February 25, 2011 1:22 pm

    Hey Vogel- I appreciate your candidness. Thanks for being you!
    I’ll have to think about how to lay out some experiences in a brief manner for ya’ll…

  235. webelieved permalink
    February 25, 2011 1:27 pm

    Amthrax, Just wanted to say amen to Vogels post “And if anyone deserves edification, it is people like Amthrax and Lazyman who have unselfishly provided venues like this for the free exchange of ideas and support. This is a noble gesture that is worthy of our respect and admiration, for they serve without asking for anything at all in return. They recognized that people were being hurt and they did the right thing to put an end to it.”
    Thank you, I finally feel like the healing from the hell I have been living for years is finally beginning.

  236. Speak Your Truth permalink
    February 25, 2011 1:34 pm

    I really have no words to thank you, Amthrax, and Juicescam! The words Thank You just doesn’t quite fulfill what my heart needs to express.
    You all are very intelligent and compassionate, which inspires me even more to do what I know my heart has always wanted to and that is to help others(the very reason I was trapped for well over a decade) and as you said being a servant,(it got twisted into slave during this) this has been very difficult because it is my heart that was abused and is the deepest pain and is the exact reason I am speaking out.
    This has been so excruciating,confusing and twisted because for those who really do care which is the ones I believe end up speaking on all these sites and my heart aches for those left still to live in their silent pain feeling alone and affraid.
    But to those just believe, “The Truth Does Set You Free”, when you speak out it is the beginning of the healing!
    I really have a lot more healing to do and believe coming on here has scratched the surface so again my Thanks and Gratitude goes to all of you for your courage and honesty, you are the real Hero’s to me!
    Vogel- you are amazing, I honestly feel your compassion!

  237. webelieved permalink
    February 25, 2011 2:41 pm

    Vogel your post made me weep. My deepest thanks!
    When I realized I had spent precious years of my life chasing the lies…. I was helping people, changing the culture back to values, working to spend time with my family, that someday i could be happy and enjoy life when I made it… I was devastated. To realize I was lying to myself and part of decieving others ripped me up. To find out after years, my faith was used against me, my goodness and good intentions were used against me, wanting a better life for my family was used against me and me caring about people was used against me to rape us of our time and money, all for a lie, was discusting. At the same time I had been very ill and believed I was going to die from a long, tiring, mysterious illness.. It was earth shattering to WAKE UP and see I HAD LIVED A LIE FOR YEARS and then see I had no time to fix it because I believed I was on my death bed.
    (I was later diagnosed with a stress induced illness, (imagine that) and over the long haul, with proper diagnosis and medication I am feeling somewhat better physically).
    The deep emotional scars still linger on and have been the hardest to get over. The betrayal and lies cut so deep. It has felt like being raped repeatedly in the closet by the principal and not being able to tell anyone. Now I can let go of the false shame and secrets! Thanks for being one of the keys to unlocking my prison. If I can help one person from being enslaved it will be worth it. Onward to healing 🙂

  238. webelieved permalink
    February 25, 2011 2:58 pm

    “In the mean time, you all now have something far more important than money – your freedom; your integrity; your soul. You’ve thrown the shackles aside”.Amen!
    Thanks Vogel, I think I will keep your post forever. Right now I can only trust those that have nothing to gain from me. Thanks for truly serving us with nothing to gain. I know you have our back and the truth will set us free.

  239. February 25, 2011 3:04 pm

    People like Vogel should get a gold medal! Very few people are like him, and as an ex-teamer, I’d like to say thank you for caring for us an providing us support and information. It does mean a lot to me that people who hasn’t been in TEAM cares and are genuinely concerned and truly understand.

  240. Vogel permalink
    February 25, 2011 3:06 pm

    Allow me to offer a few kernels of knowledge about IP addresses. First, if you are like most people posting from their home computer, your internet provider would have assigned you a dynamic IP address, which means that if someone tries to ID you from your IP address (which is transmitted whenever you surf the web or send an e-mail), the closest they will get is the city and the name of your provider; nothing more (unless they went all out and subpoenaed your provider, which is not an easy thing to do).

    If you’re posting from a business computer, then it is more likely that it is a fixed/static IP address registered in company’s name. So in other words, if you don’t want to be traced back to your place of employment, don’t use their network to electronically transmit anything (and the employer’s IT department can even ID the originating computer terminal). Some people have fixed IPs at home, but it’s less common and more expensive – you’d have to make a purposeful effort to get such a premium account.

    There are websites that act as free proxies, allowing you to surf the web anonymously using their IP address. Also, fixed IPs can be registered anonymously by the subscribers, although reputable businesses would never do such a thing (unlike that anonymously-registered bogus leadership guru website).

    As for the possibility of anyone IDing you (beyond the city) from posting here: (1) it would be impossible if you have a dynamic IP, and; (2) it’s unlikely that, in the event that you do have a static IP, Amthrax would ever use that information maliciously – we all post here trusting fully that Amthrax is on the up and up. He just waved the red flag when he noticed that someone was using the same IP address under multiple user names. That’s a very much frowned upon form of trolling because it’s only done for deceptive reasons (i.e. sock puppets, meat puppets, and to to create the illusion of strength in numbers). One voice is all anyone should need to get their message across.

    BTW, use this site to check IP addresses and website URLs and you’ll get a better feel for how it all works:

  241. February 25, 2011 3:22 pm

    Thanks for this explanation and for your kind words earlier today.

    BTW: I’ve enabled nested comments and am breaking out comments to the show the latest 200 comments. Click on the Older Comments link to see past ones.

  242. Vogel permalink
    February 25, 2011 3:25 pm

    Hey thanks all y’all. Brothers and sisters in arms! Pay it all forward.

  243. webelieved permalink
    February 25, 2011 4:01 pm

    What is nested comments? Sorry for my ignorance I just got electricity! LOL

  244. webelieved permalink
    February 25, 2011 4:02 pm

    Oh i get it. Now we won’t know when someone comments? It won’t be on the bottom?

  245. February 25, 2011 4:22 pm

    Subject to change, but let’s try it out for a little bit. If you don’t reply to an existing comment, it will still appear at the bottom. But, if you reply, your comment will be nested underneath the original comment.

  246. webelieved permalink
    February 25, 2011 5:43 pm

    Vogel, I saw that Believe movie too. I cannot remember how I found it. I think I could watch it now with more humor, the first time was painful! and embarassing to say the least! We were like vultures on a gut pile, when we were around new people. So sad, and discusting. I really thought I was enlightening people. I guess it is good now I can laugh a bit. No wonder people thought we were weird, cuz we were…

  247. I Quit ( and glad I did) permalink
    February 25, 2011 6:55 pm

    Veliza- You mentioned before that you would like to hear specific stories. Heres one for ya. I had only been in the biz for a short while but I was going after the “big fish”. I laid my contact script mumbo jumbo on him and promptly received a polite turndown for “information”. This fish knew my mom-in-law and knew me as well. A day or two later I told my illustrious upline (who only had my best interests in mind) who I had tried to slap a plan on. I don’t remember what he said exactly but it probably went something like barf puke barf puke lie. Anyway several days later guess whoshows up at the next open meeting as a guest of my wonderful upline mentor and friend? You got it, the fish. He also was aquainted with my buddy pal. Then I found out that the fish told my bosom buddy about me mentioning the same thing to him just days before. What were we taught was the right and ethical thing to do in this type of situation? Thats right, send em back to the first point of contact. Especially when its gonna be in depth in your friggin’ group anyway!! But what did the god-like, future PC numbnut do? YUP. He took the fish as a personal to start another leg. What a guy. What a pal. Lead by example right?! This event set the stage for us to know we will never fully trust the gift to 95%ers. This particular individual’s name has been mentioned many times on these sites of truth. What a cowinkydink. Ethical, Godly, man of integrity, character and honesty. Excuse me whilst I lose my pizza dinner! Man if someone is researching the Team and considering joining, Ihope reading about this experience will be enough to slap them back into objective thought! Don’t fall for it. PLEASE.

  248. I Quit ( and glad I did) permalink
    February 25, 2011 7:01 pm

    Amthrax- I’ve been meaning to say thanks for all you do as well. I’m glad I found all you folks. I love your logo too! Are you a fan? I love their old stuff!! I’ve gotta tick tick tickin in my head!! WAHOOOO! AOOGAAA!!!!!!!

  249. I Quit ( and glad I did) permalink
    February 25, 2011 7:14 pm

    You gotta stop beatin yourself up. We all (well almost all) fell for it. Hell we BELIEVED it. You ain’t alone. Maybe if you try the W.I.N. principle. Now don’t start shoutin me down all you guys! That principle can be used for good as well as Team BS. Whats important now is that you remember you’re among friends now. We care because we care. We have nothing to gain but self respect from helping a fellow victim up out of the sh*t! It’s tough but if you can build that thing for so long then you can dig your way out to sunshine and fresh air. Green grass and high tides forever! WE ARE FREE!!! WAHOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    P.S. the seminar originally scheduled for tomorrow night is hearby friggin cancelled due to lack of interest!
    P.P.S. Time for a brewha
    P.P.P.S. Or two

  250. webelieved permalink
    February 25, 2011 7:39 pm

    I wonder what your aces are.

  251. webelieved permalink
    February 25, 2011 7:46 pm

    Yep, looks right. Don’t forget all the diamonds Orrin got from Amway. If he doesn’t get tool money I am sure he gets money from them. Hey tell everyone the scoop on Bill and others we don’t hear at pc anymore? What happened?

  252. webelieved permalink
    February 25, 2011 7:54 pm

    Sounds like the little guy is always left holding the bag, empty. It really sounds like you lost a whole lot of money. Holy Toledo! I have seen the special deals too. Discusting. It is amazing the abuse of power that is going on. I am sure you had no choice. As a non policy council team leader. We weren’t allowed a choice, ever…. I am so sorry.

  253. webelieved permalink
    February 25, 2011 7:57 pm

    Sounds fair to me! Thanks for the clarification Amthrax. Post away!

  254. Speak Your Truth permalink
    February 25, 2011 8:00 pm

    Oh this is classic (sorry bout the un-ethics though, geez bet I could guess who or where that person might be)!

    Which brings up a valid point, when you and your neighbor have to fight over the same neighborhood, doesn’t make much sense to build this type of business, but like you- iquit- it became another terrible oversight!

    Seriously, what other legit sales company doesn’t protect other sales rep’s territory?

    Maybe that is why “they claim to be different and not like anyone else,” Wow…that’s an understatement!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Thanks for making me laugh hysterically!
    Love Your Choice of words-keep it coming!
    You really have to watch the Movie “Believe!”

  255. Speak Your Truth permalink
    February 25, 2011 8:02 pm

    Thanks, wow- this is still over my head. lol
    Maybe you could just tell us folks who haven’t a computer clue (well maybe just me) what is the best option! LOL

  256. webelieved permalink
    February 25, 2011 8:02 pm

    Speak, WOW a decade! That is some dedication. Sounds like you reached somme pretty high levels. If people read all the posts and still do this thinking somehow it won’t happen to them, I almost cannot feel sorry for them!

  257. webelieved permalink
    February 25, 2011 8:09 pm

    Quit, thanks for that, you are so damn funny!LOL It feels so good to laugh! I love it “the seminar has been canceled due to lack of interest!” LOL
    We should have a brew together. Bet we would have a lot of laughs! keep posting, please! 🙂

  258. Will permalink
    February 25, 2011 8:18 pm

    I quit – I have so many similar stories! This is absolutely wrong on so many levels. And to think these leaders get on stage and preach Christian values, integrity and character etc. I wonder if their new churches and pastors down in Florida have the slightest idea what these guys are all about? Steve Camp at the cross church in Palm Springs, FL must have been shedazzled by Orrin to allow him to get on stage and speak at one of their upcoming conferences. You would think that this Pastor would do his research on what this guy is all about and represents, right? It is a shame that people are continuing to be hurt and deceived by this man under the disguise of spreading the faith and changing culture.

    Does anyone know anyone from that area or at that church? It would be great for someone to call them and WARN the church of the many harms and dangers that await them.

    Tom Ascol is another pastor that team leaders seem to have gotten in bed with. I am sure this Pastor has great intentions and truly wants to spread the Gospel, but little does he know that he is being used as a PAWN for Orrin’s master plans and personal gain.

    The credibility that Orrin, Chris Brady, George Guzzardo and Claude Hamilton receive on stage by having these pastors speak at their conference is HUGE in my opinion. I really feel like these guys are being HAD.

  259. webelieved permalink
    February 25, 2011 8:19 pm

    Oh my gosh you are hilarious!!! I have had almost the same damn experiences! I had diamonds stealing people too, Holy Crap they must learn from the same teachers or something!!! I guess whatever it takes!! Too damn funny. Blatant theives they are. I guess recognition at all costs for some! LOL i am having good laughs tonight. Oh please post some more, you are bringing back my sense of humor!!! 😛

  260. webelieved permalink
    February 25, 2011 8:30 pm

    Will, I bet they haven’t a clue. One thing you could do is send a transcript or an email of this link. Oh so sad, another group to be had. Team isn’t needed to spread the news of Christ. He did it for thousands of years without them, thank you very much.

  261. Speak Your Truth permalink
    February 25, 2011 8:36 pm

    I hear you loud and clear!
    I believe it was team deception had the same thoughts and I feel like a Pastor is the best resource.
    The sad thing is when or if someone searches Orrin they will only find the Glorious, Wonderful “Suspicious”Press, “News Flashy Info” and those specifically set up Guru titles that many of the smart computer people have now pointed out are just PR stuff and full of crap that makes them look good!
    I know Orrin, he would lead that Pastor directly to this info!

    Where does this Tom Ascol, Pastor come into the picture, I have never heard of him?

  262. webelieved permalink
    February 25, 2011 8:39 pm

    I AM STILL LAUGHING!!! 🙂 🙂 :p

  263. webelieved permalink
    February 25, 2011 8:50 pm

    Vogel being involved so long and having my faith abused, ALMOST MADE ME LOSE MY FAITH IN GOD. It is dangerous and evil what they are doing.

  264. Speak Your Truth permalink
    February 25, 2011 9:34 pm

    I really want to give you a BIG THANK YOU for this new thing you did, it is way cool and easier to understand the posts better. I really don’t know how you do this but Thanks it helps us computer clueless and easily distracted people!

  265. I Quit ( and glad I did) permalink
    February 25, 2011 9:34 pm

    The real salt in the wound is this- the fish built a HUGE biz. Things could have been real different for us if… And that, ladies and gentlemen is the million dollar issue (millions out of the dreamer’s pocket and into Woody’s and co.) IF. Man our biz was disgustingly full of “ifs”. Why did we keep going through all the failed ifs? Because we knew that sooner or later we’d beat the odds and an if would pan out in our favor. Right? Many, many times I would be on my knees begging God to finally let this thing break for us. We got so close so many times only to lose it for one reason or another. If only this wouldn’t have happened or that hadn’t happened, We’d be triple 100 instead of just turbo100 with a leg of nose pickers. I can’t believe I felt that way now that I see it in print! They’re PEOPLE! Not losers. They’re hard workin Americans who are struggling for whatever reason and maybe they’re trying to be responsible stewards of their money instead of brainwashed glory mongers with a goal. My goal dammit, don’t get in my way or I’ll crush your friggin head on my way over you to the top! I’m a choleric (erp) and I’m proud of my ability to turn off my emotion to achieve the task at hand. It pains me to look back and realize how deep I was in to “chasing my dream” no matter what. Anyway- I find peace and solace in the fact that God, in his infinite wisdom had a better idea. The answer to my prayer was no because he didn’t want us to get that deeply involved in this crapola called the “team”. ( It probably didn’t help that I’m a headstrong non-conformist who doesn’t always take direction well from others. Especially when they’re jacked up wrong!) Hee hee, hoo hoo, ha ha!!!!!!!!! I’ve gotta be me!!! I’ve got to be me!! I’m right this time big O! And you, are wrong. HOOWAH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    Yeah baby!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    FREEDOM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! AHOOOGAAAAA!!!!!!!!!!!

  266. Will permalink
    February 25, 2011 9:54 pm

    I remember getting a cd with Tom Ascol from Team drop shipped to my house. He was featured on one of the ERM series CDs that they sold. Not sure on the number?? Anyone else remember this CD?

    He pastors a church out of Cape Coral, FL. I believe Tim Marks goes there along with some other leaders. Chris Brady used to have a house down there, not sure if he does anymore, but he is really tight with this guy as well. On Chris Brady’s website he has some links up pointing to this guys site here:

    Here is Tom Ascol’s church website –

    and Twitter page –

    If you look at Tom’s twitter page he is periodically tweeting comments about Orrin and Chris and likewise the FAKE GURU AWARD recipients in turn tweet pretty heavily back and forth with Tom and his church.

    I did a another google search for Tom Ascol and found this link here - , which is a document /detailed report of all of the old Team/PPS/SOL tapes by number. GOSH this brings back some shyytie memories, eh? I feel sorry for the nut job who thought it was a good idea to type all this crap up.

    Anyhow, back on track…this document shows Tom Ascol as being apart of the team tape system (featured speaker) at one time, though it does not show which exact cd it was. So, it looks like this has been a pastor that has been around for a while as Chris & Terri Brady and Tim & Amy Marks (maybe Orrin & Laurie too? Not sure if they went to this church…anyhone else know?) must have been schmooozing with this pastor in Florida and his church for a while building a relationship and slowly building him up as the next CHRISTIAN leader to ENDORSE the team to give them CREDIBILITY.

    SICKENING that these diamonds will falsely use religion and masquerade around on stage preaching ethics, faith and morals when they could give a crap.

    one word for you —


    All members at Tom Ascol’s Grace Baptist church in Cape Coral, FL. and Steve Camp’s the Cross Church in Palm Springs, FL need to BEWARE the wolves in sheep’s clothing!!!

    I truly hope that these pastors wise up and start to question the diamonds motives here. The diamonds have everything to gain and these pastors stand to lose alot as people in their churches will be harmed.

  267. Speak Your Truth permalink
    February 25, 2011 11:19 pm

    I wonder what your’s are, many more may come out, just depends! LOL

  268. Speak Your Truth permalink
    February 25, 2011 11:22 pm


  269. Speak Your Truth permalink
    February 25, 2011 11:37 pm

    webelieved-we do care!
    I Quit- OMG- I cannot stop laughing at “News Flash” on the seminar!!!!!

  270. Will permalink
    February 25, 2011 11:53 pm

    Lets talk AMWAY /Quixtar lawsuit and all the BS that Orrin pulled there for a bit. I am sure we all have similar stories to tell being that alot of us were close to the leaders being Turbo 25s on up to Triple 100s.

    I’ll go first…

    Who remembers Orrin stating that he ‘Did not Solicit or speak to Team members about resigning from Amway?’
    –Now remember he was under oath during the lawsuit stating that his lips were sealed the entire time and that he never encouraged or told people to quit. BS!! I specifically recall conversations over the phone and text message on what to say to the field and when they were to send in their mass resignations. THE GUY IS A LIAR and he LIED UNDER OATH

    Who remembers the lawsuit that he filed against Quixtar stating that they were an illegal pyramid because they only had (supposedly) 3% retail sales, which makes them illegal according to FTC regulations?
    — Who thinks it is odd that he later joins with MonaVie, a company who has ZERO retail sales!!! (Oh, unless you count inactive distributors as customers…then I guess that would be a good way to disguise the fact that no one retails the product.) This stat alone trips me up majorly!! How can so many Team people follow him blindly without critically evaluating this business first.

    Who remembers reading Orrin’s ‘Benchmarking Comparison of MonaVie’ on his blog and how it was a great opportunity blah blah blah!!??
    — Really, I don’t think they gave it much thought. I think it simply came down to who was offering the most CASH for them to merge with their business.

    Who remembers Orrin suing Q due to over priced products?
    — Was MonaVie’s LONE RANGER of a product priced any better?

    I know there is a ton of other good stuff I am missing…

    ….I will let you guys fill in the rest….

  271. Speak Your Truth permalink
    February 26, 2011 12:08 am

    This SHOULD shatter the indoctrination, and put people in shock!
    I CONFIRM that the Solicitation FACTS that you state are 100% the TRUTH!
    Very Well put, way to state the FACTS, I am going to “promote this to my whole team!” LOL
    Really though everyone should read this!

    To bad I didn’t have access to the “Team Inside Blog” that is where the message behind the message is or the marching orders come from! I will never give them another dime of mine again, they have taken way too much from way too many!

    Great Job!

  272. Will permalink
    February 26, 2011 12:20 am

    Speak Your Truth – Glad we can help each other out!! I will say that I have been in a state of ‘Shell Shock’ over the past few years and I too am just starting to snap out of it. It has been a long slow painful road, and the past few weeks on this blog has been a great experience in order for me to cope and heal. I guess I no longer feel ALONE and realize that there are alot of good people in the same boat that just want to MOVE ON, while trying in any way we can to warn others to JUMP from the SINKING SHIP.

    Thanks for listening to me rant on here guys and gals!!

    iQuit – I would love to grab a brew with you and the rest of the crew on here anytime. I am sure we kicked it around in the past at seminars and opens together. Would be interesting to have some real conversations face to face sometime. I am sure we would have CRAZY stories to tell….

    “Remember that one time at Fun in the Sun, when we desperately wanted to just have a day to spend with our families, but instead we were forced to sitting in a conference room listening to Orrin schmyooorrrin yak about the same ol’ same ol’ for 5 hours each night and then trying to stay interested as the mic got passed to Chris & Terri and then Tim & Amy…???”

    …yeah, I am sure we could go all day

  273. webelieved permalink
    February 26, 2011 12:50 am

    We were called by our upline who said it came from our diamond what date to specifically resign and how to do it. Then we were called later and told not to all do it on the same date. We were also told not to send any emails to downline, only things in secret. Remember the Underground Railroad? Oh my. This brings back memories for sure. They got us to believe Quixtar was the enemy, which they did start acting like. It is so funny you bring this up. I remember when Orrin was under a gag order from a judge and yet had a secret meeting with his leaders. At the time I thought it was cool, but later realized that it was immoral if not illegal. Remember the “history lessons”? Oh or how bout Moses? That one was disturbing! Remember the Walmart of the Internet, that never came? on the Future of the Internet cd by Woodward and the book Leading the Consumer Rebellion revised many times, by Brady, It seemed like weekly lol. All about building Content Commerce and Communities? Promises Promises. And then he back tracked and blogged saying the Walmart of the Internet was something like the biggest misconception on the Team?? Were we not taught to give those cds and books out to everyone?? OMGosh. Unreal. Did our diamond not do meetings all over about buying power of large communities and low prices??? Wasn’t everyone excited about what was to come? Maybe I am the only delusional one, or not. And we just kept on following. …. and buying more tools, oh boy.

  274. webelieved permalink
    February 26, 2011 1:00 am

    Will, I love your posts. you crack me up. I will have a beer anyday too! Oh yeah we could have a whole lot of fun. My life has been destroyed to almost non functioning for the past few years, so I can relate. I too am starting to snap out of it. It helps to know you are not alone. That is helping me for sure. I cannot believe all this is even happening. I have been so oppressed for so long. I am sure I would know you and you would know me…. and I want to meet with Quit cause I need a good belly laugh. OHGosh is he funny.

  275. I Quit ( and glad I did) permalink
    February 26, 2011 6:23 am

    Good morning class! aaaaaaaaaayes indeed believed. I answered yes to every question you posed in your last post. I had similar phone calls with instructions to never use any electronic coms as they are traceable and like ya’ll Ibought into the “us and them” David vs Goliath mentality which glazed over the wrongness of what was being done!! Great subject choice Will! But remember, the gifts to us 95%ers were found guilty!! The Lord works in mysterious ways. I would love to have EVERYONE over this summer! We’ll sit around the firepit and have two-way conversation and beers. You know like we used to with our illustrious uplines many moons ago.

  276. Will permalink
    February 26, 2011 6:48 am

    “Morning Class”


    I love it.

    We Believed – Great points, all so true and YES the MOSES analogy was indeed wrong and the deceit and LIES that surround just this one little topic are too many to name.

    iQuit – You name the time and place and we will be there! We will need to let Amthrax run point on figuring out a way to get a few of us in contact with each other.

  277. February 26, 2011 7:28 am

    Yes, and it’s even better knowing that Amthrax and LazyMan never been in MV/TEAM, it’s really good to know that there are some outsiders that truly understand us, and took the time to research, and are willing to help.

  278. February 26, 2011 8:04 am

    Hi, I Quit, I’ve never had anyone stolen from me, perhaps it’s because I worked my arse off for seven months and never gotten anyone! :-p heh, oh dear, that was so unethical of those guys to steal people from you guys, I think it’s awful. At least my sponsor let me go at some people she had her eye on. Don’t know if she’d do it now that she’s even more steeped into TEAM, though. I am praying that she’ll get out, though.

    Regards, Izzy

  279. webelieved permalink
    February 26, 2011 8:50 am

    Will- I feel the same way. “I will say that I have been in a state of ‘Shell Shock’ over the past few years and I too am just starting to snap out of it. It has been a long slow painful road, and the past few weeks on this blog has been a great experience in order for me to cope and heal. I guess I no longer feel ALONE and realize that there are alot of good people in the same boat…”
    Will, did your pay drop under 1000 too? In 6 month wait? Also did you have others get paid more and special deals with smaller teams? Just wondering….. we did.

  280. webelieved permalink
    February 26, 2011 9:06 am


    Amthrax can you confirm that all of us started writing on here not much more than a month ago? I know, we have been gone from Team for years and I am guessing the rest too. I didn’t even look at this site for years, and finally got up the courage to read it. Then thanks to someone else’s heart wrenching post, I finally got up the courage to write, and low and behold you all are on here at the same time? after years??? AMAZING. His timing is amazing…
    No accident, only a miracle so we can lift each other up and no longer feel alone and oppressed!
    You all are an answer to years of prayers!! I am overwhelmed in gratefulness. He has given us much wisdom through our trials!
    He sees our tears, and our pain and our righteous anger and our goodness and he has not forgotten us, or left us behind to be cast away! God is so good, His grace is Amazing!
    To HIM goes the Glory!!!

  281. webelieved permalink
    February 26, 2011 9:21 am


    My answer is, this is another lie I believed….the answer is NO, I LOST SO MUCH TIME. YEARS OF TIME. (And teambots I did the work and made the money…) The leaders including the diamonds, just switched their work hours to almost all the time. They are on the phone and driving all of the time. If your not showing the plan your on the phone, doing meetings, writing speeches, checking voicecom, traveling somewhere, driving, listening to cds, watching dvds, calling sessions, meetings and mentoring, doing seminars,and trying to figure out what you are missing, to make your business grow more.Trying to figure out why you have to replace people all the time cause they quit. I will elaborate more later. There is a good article about time, on mlmpunsihers site, link on the right of this page.
    Happy posting….can’t wait to hear what you all have to say…..

  282. Will permalink
    February 26, 2011 9:26 am

    webelieved – My business and income went south way before the switch to MonaVie. However, during that transition it fizzled away even more so down to nothing. AND YES, many of my teams that were still active were divvied up and given to other leaders that were never even in the same teams or lines of sponsorship in Quixtar. YEARS of effort and building and they (ORRIN) took teams and positioned them wherever they pleased. More importantly, ORRIN even took teams that he never had a connection with prior to these distributors coming into Quixtar. They were my contacts, my personals, my friends and relationships over the course of my life prior to joining Team. He moved in there, cozied up to them and re-positioned people that I FOUND, that I BUILT relationships with. This is completely UNETHICAL and MORALLY WRONG.

    I had big business at one point with around 500 people in my downline, but none of them were able to reach even the platinum levels within Quixtar. This is what woke me up as I realized that I was the only one making a ‘small piece of cheese’ from this business, yet everyone on my team never made any money. The numbers did not add up. I could not (WITH A CLEAR CONSCIENCE) continue to promote this business and edify the leaders and represent this as a GOOD INCOME opportunity, because it WAS NOT.

    I watched family after family accumulate massive amounts of debt, and all the while ORRIN would be encouraging it. Families that had 3, 4 or 5 kids in diapers and grade school…who were out maxing their credit cards and driving thousands of miles to show plans each month and they never made a DIME! But yet they still drank the juice and followed Orrin blindly. Eventually, they slowly started to wake up that they were wasting their MONEY and most importantly their TIME.

    Imagine all of the good things they could have done with their own families building memories that would last a life time by taking family vacations with their children or investing that money in their families future (a REAL business, college fund, sports lessons for their kids etc.), when instead they were told “Your kids have to sacrifice too for a little while until you go Diamond, and then you can have all the time in the world to spend with your kids!!!” NEWS FLASH – there are only 5 or 6 current PC members on the Team out of thousands of distributors. These people will never get to that level. And ANOTHER THING — the pc members that are there, WE CAN ALL ATEST to this fact, they DO NOT SPEND TIME WITH THEIR FAMILIES. They are still slaves to this business and spend every ounce of time they have is going towards CONVINCING PEOPLE to stay in their cult.

    One of the REGRETS I have is the amount of TIME and MONEY that I let this business TAKE from me. The Bible talks about IDOLS in our lives and anything that CONSUMES us and CONTROLS our thoughts, time and actions and takes us away from our WALK WITH GOD is an idol. It can be an iPhone, video games, TV, books, a sport or hobby like GOLF etc. ANYTHING THAT WE VALUE MORE THAN OUR FAITH is an IDOL. TEAM IS and WAS exactly that for me and everyone else that I witnessed DIVING into the system and PRAISING the SYSTEM, LEADERS and BUSINESS. We all put this at the forefront of our lives and focused on this business more than we did our faith, our families, our church and our friends. I KNOW YOU CAN RELATE with what I am saying, and my prayer is that other people will see that they are allowing TEAM and MONAVIE and ORRIN WOODWARD to CONSUME their every breath, their every ounce of BEING, their every inner THOUGHT, DESIRE and MOTIVES — ALL our consumed and controlled by Team and Orrin’s system that he has designed to KEEP you ENTRENCHED and CAPTIVE for his own personal GAIN.

    I KNOW THE NUBMERS. I have detailed receipts, tax documents and everything that I spent and made over the past 10 years and I spent WAY more money than I earned…and I was the only one in my team that got a check from Quixtar or Team. PERIOD. Everyone one else just LOST way more than I DID.

    I am happy to say that I am FREE and have my time back and I can now FOCUS my life and energy towards what is important: GOD, MY CHURCH, MY WIFE, MY KIDS, MY FUTURE and I can now spend my time with my family where that is where I am needed most. I am to be a Godly example and leader in my OWN household and that is impossible when TEAM LEADERS are telling you to SACRIFICE and that my kids need to SACRIFICE until I got DIAMOND. They are MIS-LEADING thousands of people down the same path and it is morally wrong and corrupt!

    This is why I feel that these churches down in Florida and the Pastors there are being MIS-LEAD as well for Orrin’s own personal gain.

    Sorry again for the rant…

    It does feel good to let it ALL out!

  283. February 26, 2011 9:44 am

    I do wonder why there’s so much activity on this TEAM/Woodward post after all these years of blogging about the subject. Perhaps multiple people are waking up to the fact that it has all been an illusion.

  284. webelieved permalink
    February 26, 2011 10:03 am

    Will, you could put our names in most of your post. We however made it and kept our numbers and then had most and later all of our profit sharing mola taken away by Orrin and his minions. It is sick. It is then that we slowly could start seeing and searching for the facts..You are spot on!!! ALL is true!! I wish all the followeres would/could look at this site. To see the truth. Some leaders don’t even know what has happened, they just keep spreadin the lies. I still have people in I love. It is so hard to see them sell their souls, and morals and do whatever is asked of them. It is like the video Thriller with the zombies. Oh so heart wrentching. We lost years and years, our kids suffered so much. They missed out on sooo much, and still are because of the emotional toll on our family. I am so SAD of the years I missed in their little lives(they are not little anymore 😦 )….. Oh my heart is broken for those lost years……. Our parents are ill now and we missed years with them as well…….YEARS OF TIME WE CAN NEVER GET BACK. All this for a LIE. OH THE PAIN. I am so glad God saved us. It is the most discusting, dispicable, disturbingly ill, paranoid, manipulative, unchristian like behavior displayed i have ever known.
    Oh they stole your people? We experienced that too! oH YEAH! no phone calls, no conflict resolution, they are discusting……They used us for years of our lives, and then threw us in the garbage can, stole from us, lied, covered up. How do they call themselves Christians and leaders??? I am embarassed to have associated with and promoted them! I wish we had known the Bible and scripture better we may have seen the heresy sooner. Lesson learned! Hallelujah, may the truth set us all free!!!!

  285. humiliated permalink
    February 26, 2011 10:04 am

    Wow. I have been reading this blog for some time now and have never really felt compelled to comment because I didn’t have anything to do with TEAM, only MonaVie. I began to learn about the association between the two (most of which happened after I left MV) and I truly felt sick for having had ANYTHING to do with a company that would align itself with TEAM on ANY level.

    Vogel’s beautiful and heartfelt words are seconded by me. I almost started crying when I saw the pain that MV and TEAM have put some of you through, I mean, to suffer a life threatening illness brought on by the stress of this cult, is criminal, plain & simple. To lose your house, your savings, but most importantly…your life…is not something to be taken lightly. I agree with Vogel that some action needs to be taken here when everyone is ready, of course.

    What scares me most about TEAM is the way that they have scared all of you into silence. You are all so afraid to be identified that you are worried about being tracked through your computer. I totally get this, as I had the same fear. In a weird way, their mind control continues, doesn’t it? Perhaps it is because some of us have loved ones (or at least “liked” ones) that we have left behind in TEAM and it might hurt them to speak out, but most likely the “leaders” have somehow convinced everyone that they are omnipotent, beyond legal reproach. This is simply not true. I think a class action lawsuit is a brilliant idea and you all should really think about it. These people are CRIMINALS and they need to be exposed for what they are.

    I think that a lot of you feel that you have some guilt because you went along with it, began to feel the greed take over your hearts and souls, but trust your instincts when they tell you that you were a pawn. Speaking personally, I started out thinking I was just doing something good for my body with drinking “the juice” but began to get sucked into the whole materialistic side of things…what if I COULD take the trip to Africa…pay off my mortgage…etc? This is not me…I have a beautiful life and am proud of my accomplishments. But then I had an experience where I was around some Diamonds and “jewels” where I heard them all bragging about how they were going to have their own bus and plane some day with MONAVIE plastered over the side of it, and it brought me to reality. These people were good and decent people and for two hours they talked about all of the THINGS they were going to have & it made me sick to my stomach. It was all so surreal. Sidebar-none of them have these things 4 years later.

    Anyways, I felt horrible guilt for getting people involved, for believing the “truths” that I was spoon fed & for being naive enough to fall for a scam like this in the first place. I, to be honest, sort of always quietly ridiculed people that fell for these Ponzi schemes yet, here I was, involved in one! I am well educated and never thought it would happen to me, yet it did. iquit mentioned that he is a non-conformist and doesn’t like being told what to do…yet he was deeply involved with TEAM. Make no mistake people, their techniques are cult techniques and are dangerous.

    I got out before it did too much financial damage (let’s just say I could have taken that trip to Africa with my losses but that is about it) but a lot of you suffered far more then I did. There are more families that will suffer in the future as well and you all need to keep posting, telling your stories and doing what you can to get the message out. I think a huge part of my “self forgiveness” process is by posting as much as I can on the Juice Scam and Lazyman sites (a shout out to my peeps over there & to JS for being such an unselfish host -they all helped in my “recovery”!), it is catharsis but it is also redemption. I feel that if I tell my story over and over again, it might resonate with someone and they either won’t become victimized or will somehow “snap out of it”.

    You are all very brave and I congratulate you for coming out of the darkness with your hearts so open to helping others, as well as yourselves. You are the real “winners” here. Please don’t ever forget that.

  286. webelieved permalink
    February 26, 2011 10:14 am

    It is amazing, simply amazing.
    We woke up years ago but were too afraid to speak. I think the same for them. that is why it is so amazing. I knew of your site when we left Amway way back in 2007! God has used your blog all these years for an instrument in healing at such a time as this! You who used to be the enemy are now the healer!!! How Ironic!!! I cannot thank you enough for keeping on keepin on…through all the crap I am sure. Words cannot express how healing this is!! To know this crap happened to a lot of people… not just us. Some I think in our own backyard? and we didn’t even know? Just goes to show you the secrecy and brainwashing and oppression a cult can inflict!No one can know our pain, unless you have experienced it!

  287. Orrinsux permalink
    February 26, 2011 10:20 am

    I knew quite a few people from Lance and Tracy Smith’s organization who were making decent supplemental income from Quixtar and were blatantly lied to about switching over from Q to MV. In fact, I believe the Smith’s were double dipping and continue to this day double dipping from both while my good friends have been forced to work two or three jobs just to make ends meet. They had been getting $2,000 – $5,000 monthly from Q (I personally saw their checks) before drinking the punch and following Christ……uh…….I mean Orrin

    Also, another close friend of mine managed speakers and music groups who would go in to perform for TEAM and I remember one instance where a music group, who had an amazing ministry, was to receive an offering from the Sunday worship service and they never got it. I’m guessing it went into Orrins right or left pocket. That’s messing with God’s money. I don’t think the group was associated with TEAM but I know they had an awful impression of the organization for taking an offering that was designated for mission work and instead somehow disappeared. I truly believe these people are getting paybacks from above…… don’t mess with God……at least the only TRUE and REAL GOD!

  288. Will permalink
    February 26, 2011 10:48 am

    Thats exactly it…

    by Gods GRACE we are FREE, what an emotional and strange journey it is. But we will be better and stronger in the end. Now that the blinders are off I can now think again and listen as God speaks to me and works in my life. This is truly what I have been missing all along!

  289. webelieved permalink
    February 26, 2011 10:54 am

    I lied to myself and everyone else. we had no time. We hardly had time to go to the bathroom I swear.LOL. Gotta go power player or double or triple right? Over and over and over, year after year after year. It all is a lie, you will never retire, just change how the work looks. I do not want to again be under pressure constantly to perform. This is exactly what we were under CONSTANT PRESSURE TO PERFORM! I believe it is called a High Performance cult????? We were only valued for out work ethic and loyalty to our upline. Not our compassion, morals, personality, etc. Our abiltiy to put people in and edify the guru….. was the most important thing. And let me tell you if we were not working or percieved to be working the way our upline gurus wanted then they had no time us. Hell even when we were killing ourselves it was never enough for their approval, edification (which you needed to make it). We had favored couch potatoe people reporting in on us???!!! I’m not exactly sure what they were saying….Maybe….” Uhhh my rockin leader is going power player again,and I’m not, but we don’t like them, we are jealous!!??? We want the edification” who knows? It wasn’t said but you knew it was happening. And they would come in and destroy the teams cohesiveness and our credibility over and over. Oh and you better be ready to do whatever they tell you, when they tell you ethical/legal or not. If you don’t you will Be Destroyed!!!Our experience (sorry i use “you” too much i just get so excited) Work, work , work. ….. all we did was work. Replace people and work. High ho High ho it’s off to Retirement…uhhh …… I mean more work we go!! Work until you are fried, and then……….we will steal it and keep the money for ourselves!!! Bassss—turddddds !!!

  290. Will permalink
    February 26, 2011 11:07 am

    Webelieved – “We were only valued for out work ethic and loyalty to our upline.”

    This is WAY funny (and pathetic at the same time), I recall a number of cases where Orrin would come in and ask why I was not ‘Edifying him on stage as much as other leaders.’ I may had been referring to CDs that I had liked by Chris Brady or a quote from Tim Marks — Anyways, homeboy (Orrin) gets jealous gives me a long talking to about why I need to edify him on stage. Cracks me up this guy, his massive EGO competing with his own friend and Diamonds. And don’t get me wrong, it was not like I did not talk about him at all, every time I did a plan, night owl or seminar I must have mentioned his name a dozen or so times or more (all in a positive manner), he just didn’t like the fact that I was edifying other leaders maybe a little bit more than him.

  291. webelieved permalink
    February 26, 2011 11:21 am

    Oh yes Will I am learning again to listen to that still small voice again. Not Orrin’s, Tim, George, Chris, some pastor or anyone elses for that matter. Halellujah it’s still there and He carried me all along!!! I have been waiting on the Lord to show me what to do. He has finally given me courage through you all, who have put a rod in my spine, to tell the truth. My heart used to race in fear of them. NO MORE! I will continue to tell the truth about my experiences. The truth sets you free!!!! YEeeeeeehah!!!!

  292. I Quit ( and glad I did) permalink
    February 26, 2011 11:43 am

    I must say that its a damn good thing we bailed out before the group theft activities started. Or maybe we were just fortunate to be under the radar enough to have been missed. Not sure… Our MV shift went pretty smooth actually except for a few folks who never resigned their old biz. That got ugly. However we made sure our LOS stayed in the exact order (except of course the folks who either stayed or weren’t interested in continuing) it was previously. We caught some crap from our PC for taking too long and letting our group dictate to us etc. We saw it as being ethical and honest thank you very much!! I know if my upline would have stolen anything there would have been assault charges on my ass because the old me would have been allowed back to the surface and he wasn’t nice- he had a history of fights in bars and even in street intersections. God had bigger plans for me instead of prison I guess. Which I appreciate more than words can express. And no Teambots I’m not threatening anyone. I just know the pain and sacrifice that goes into building a successful biz and if some mofo who didn’t earn it, takes it, I will get just a tad bit upset. At any rate it “doesn’t matter doesn’t matter doesn’t matter.” Hee hee ha ha hoo hoo!! I”M FREEEEE!!! I’m gonna go pound nails in my basement now since theres no seminar today! HOOWAHH!!!!!!!!!!!

  293. Speak Your Truth permalink
    February 26, 2011 12:15 pm

    I Quit
    Thank You for the wake-up laugh, I absolutely love your style, it has given me once again another deep out-loud belly laugh, keep it coming!
    I Quit
    Thank You for the wake-up laugh, ! I absolutely love your style, it has given me once again another deep out-loud belly laugh, keep it coming!!

    I don’t even know where to begin, I first am laughing out loud @ I Quit and then Oh the deepest sadness just came over me when I started to read your post, I honestly have no words to describe the pain I feel for not just you and your family and all your team but Webelieved and myself and my kids.
    The last 3 days God has been answering my prayers!
    After, going on almost 3 years of excruciating anguish, extreme anger, sadness, and loathing, many prayers and questions to God: WHY ISN’T JUSTICE BEING SERVERED? Please heal the hearts of all these that have left and are still blinded! Why are those with the facts to take them down that I believe have not only a Legal but even more strongly, a Moral Obligation to Speak up and Out, Why haven’t they spoken (common sense would tell you there is at least some, I can’t indulge too much because I would have to give an (“Ace in the Hole”, because I myself don’t even understand it) but someone has to know these facts, How can they just pretend? Why haven’t they been investigated? So, many more questions!
    The last 3 days have been the most powerful for me and mostly because of a few commenters’ and I now I have been blessed to see the fruits of more healing for others! I really can’t tell you what this means to me, we were never about the MONEY that was at least in our minds the by-product of pouring our lives into others. I cannot contain my emotions by yours’ and webelieves comments. I can clearly see the pain this has caused you both. But even better I can see the pain being released and it truly is setting you free!
    Everything you said on the registration, (I have so much to say there,) but you gave a clear, honest and factual statement!
    THIS IS THE REASON, WE STOOD UP, and it is, as you said, IMMORAL AND UNETHICAL and the strongest testament to the REAL CHARACTER OF THIS CORRUPT AND GREEDY, FARCE! I have NO EMPATHY, for these pathetic, greedy, miss-leaders! This was done strictly to RANK THE FEW, AND WE REFUSED TO SELL OUR SOULS!!!!!!! This was definitely the beginning of the END for us AN THEM but they are too stupid to see it themselves, they are so AROGANT and NARCISSISTIC THAT THEY DON’T EVEN SEE THIS! YOU CAN’T STEAL FROM PEOPLE AND EXPECT TO PROSPER! They need to give their head a shake and it still blows my mind! I believe, it DOESN’T MATTER what METHOD, PRACTICE, MIND CONTROL TECHNIQUE or any other MANIPULATION TATIC you can conjure up, YOU WILL NOT SAVE YOURSELF, YOU GROUP OR PROSPER OR GROW!THEY HAVE MESSED WITH GOD’S LAWS, there is no escaping this! SO SHAME ON THEM! This will be the death of whatever they could possible DREAM! So I guess the few worthless dollars they gained, is worth selling your soul!
    They have created division, destruction, destitution for many! They will pay the price! They may be enjoying the fruits of that corruption so to speak, but there is nothing on this green earth worth selling your soul for! I wish I could believe they didn’t know what they were doing, BUT THAT IS NOT THE CASE! So therefore, they may be able to continue to poison and control the minds of others with their false teachings that obviously THEY THEMSELVES DO NOT FOLLOW! They have ruined peoples relationships, abused friendships, stolen for financial gain, and F$$K WITH MY FRIENDS AND FAMILY and all of yours too and for this I will wait and watch for them to self-destruct!!!!!!!!!!
    So when did you say we can get together for a BEER?
    I am so sorry for all of your suffering! But am glad to see the HEALING BEGIN!

  294. February 26, 2011 12:28 pm

    The indoctrination is so real, and those of us who were in it aren’t even aware of it. I remember hearing the term “TEAM Culture” a lot, basically meaning having our own “culture” of sorts. It’s freaky. They all acted the same, most dressed the same, business-like and such. They looked up to the leaders and called them by first name. I came from an old-fashioned, polite-society (foster) home. It was Mr or Mrs until we are better acquaiinted. Immediately my upline would correct me and say “Claude” or “Orrin”. Well, I certainly don’t know these guys, where is the polite to-do that’s generally required in any society until a personal acquaintence is made? And all this “instant friend” business is spooky. I’m reserved, and suddenly I’m thrust into this hug-a-thon. Sheesh. Sorry for venting, but it really goes against all that I’ve learned growing up.

    Also, another thing that got my goat is “You have to go into debt in order to become successful.” That goes against any bit of common sense anyone would naturally have. Sure, people take out loans to purchase a franchaise, however, this isn’t a franchaise. It’s a freaking MLM scheme. Why go beyond your limits? Does it truly make any sense at all?

    And the sacrificing! Our kids need us. Early developmental organisations and teachers will tell you that a child’s earliest years are the most crucial time for emotional developmental and bonding with his parents. The TEAM’s perspective is way off-base, and goes against basic psychology. Basic common sense in child-rearing. I’m a mother of 2 special-needs children and I myself am disabled. We have specific support systems in place and yes, they INVOLVE THE PARENTS!! I’d much rather attend development week and workshops for parents with special needs children than to to frigging meetings that only repeats themselves over and over and over and over!

    I’ve ranted and raged a bit on Juicescam’s blog, and I hope I don’t bore you guys by repeating myself on here, lol *blush* Just read this mini-thread and had to vent, is all. I got a lot more to say, but I’d better shut up and slurp my tea.

    Regards, Izzy

  295. February 26, 2011 12:36 pm

    Talking from a practical point of view, I think people really are getting frustrated and came across your blog. Upon reading the posts and comment threads, they do help us to open up. I myself have been sharing with people this blog, but not sure anyone I know has read it. I’d say give it some more time, and keep sharing this blog, especially to those of us who have gone away from TEAM, and more and more people will speak up.

  296. webelieved permalink
    February 26, 2011 12:38 pm

    Welcome Orrinsux good to see you. Please post some more!!!

  297. February 26, 2011 12:45 pm

    Hi, Orrinsux, that really is a punch in the gut, isn’t it. 😦 I’m so sorry you had be exposed to this foolishness and greed, and hopfully soon all this will come into the mainstream light, and also a class-action lawsuit. Anything to bring these buggers to justice and to save more people from being ripped off. I personally would like to see tighter control on Multi-Level Marketing by the Federal Trade Commission, the Canadian Competition Bureau, and world wide.

    Right now, I know that TEAM is illegal in any involvement with Amway in the UK. I’d like to see the same action again here in North America. I hope to also see TEAM closed and made illegal, period. Their practises are highly unethical.

  298. February 26, 2011 12:53 pm

    Webelieved and Will, there is now a classification of cults called “commercial cults” More and more people are speaking out against these kinds of cults so I think they had to put in a new classification. I now there’s a lot of discussions on Amway being a commercial cults, as I’ve seen it addressed a few times, it’ll only be a matter of time before they do the same way as TEAM. If you haven’t done so (and this is good for I Quit) please read and there’s some valuable insight on how these organisations work from a mind-control/cultic perspective.

    I wonder if TEAMers were even constantly texting each other even when they were on the loo! tee hee

  299. Orrinsux permalink
    February 26, 2011 1:09 pm

    Just think about all the older Amway Diamonds who drank Orrin’s punch…… never hear about those people but again I know for a fact that many of them were making a decent monthly check (not saying they made it all via sales…….it was a combo of sales, tools, and functions). Because of their age they can’t really start all over again. It’s so sad.

  300. webelieved permalink
    February 26, 2011 1:59 pm

    Humiliated- thank you. I am still AFRAID. But I will tell you the oppression I felt was worse than the fear I feel. I think indoctrination for sure plays a big part, but also we have seen Q sue Orrin, Orrin sue Q. People get sued by Q for telling their stories. And other companies try to shut people up. We are scared because we cannot afford a lawsuit or an attorney and they know it! That is why we haven’t done anything.
    I know for me my physical and mental health could not have taken it when this all first happened. I have suffered Major, debilitating, deppression for years from all of this, I haven’t been hardly functioning. These past few days are the first time I have felt energy and joy and laughed in a long time. I can finally see the light at the end of a long tunnel. I have a heavy burden lifted off my chest. I have been affected in everyway by my involvment with this group. We are hanging on by a thread and cannot lose anymore and survive financially. We have been silenced for sooo long. There are other abuses we have suffered at the hands of our upline that I am not ready to share…..but the time will come I am sure.I believed it was only a few of us, but now I wonder how many more? You cannot deny a group. I hope that other leaders, people that have been hurt will come to this site so they can begin to heal. They will stay in bondage if you don’t. I needed to hear others stories to begin to heal. The mind control and guilt and self doubt is so gripping.

  301. webelieved permalink
    February 26, 2011 2:02 pm

    You are right about starting at the bottom again.

  302. webelieved permalink
    February 26, 2011 2:11 pm

    I agree I think a lot more people are going to get wind and get healed!! YEEEHHA!!!!

  303. humiliated permalink
    February 26, 2011 4:12 pm

    webelieved, I am so happy to hear that you are laughing again. What you have been through was years of emotional abuse and, that takes time to undo. You have been through literal hell and come out on the other side, so you are a very strong person and you will find the joy and happiness that you so deserve.

    I do understand your fear and I wouldn’t want you to do anything to jeopardize yourself or your family any further.

    I just wish an attorney would read this blog and take this on pro bono. If there was a fund set up solely for the purpose of funding litigation against Orrin & his puppets, I would gladly give to it. Arg. I feel so helpless.

  304. February 26, 2011 4:24 pm

    It would be nice, for sure, I agree.

  305. Orrinsux permalink
    February 26, 2011 4:33 pm

    I was very close to Chuck and Colleen Goetschel too. It made me sick to my stomach to see TEAM promote Chuckie as a man of moral integrity. Cheating on your wife and ignoring your brand new boys is hardly someone who qualifies for Father/Husband of the year! Colleen has remarried and is doing wonderful.

  306. February 26, 2011 5:11 pm

    Colleen is out of TEAM as well?

  307. Dorothy permalink
    February 26, 2011 6:23 pm

    This commenter requested that her comments be removed from this site.

  308. UnKnown permalink
    February 26, 2011 6:24 pm


    Thanks for sharing a great piece of info. Very interesting thatChuck cheated on Colleen because EVERYONE on the Team was lead to believe that Colleen was the reason why they separated and Chuck tried VERY hard to fix the relationship but at the end of the day he couldn’t. This was how Chuck spoke on stage, saying that the ‘most’ important thing was family, and then he’d cry. My Policy Coucil member told all his leaders that Chuck had enough of her ditziness, she was uncooperative and pulled away from the business, or more less didn’t want to do anything – “became lazy”. Please elaborate if you can?

  309. Vogel permalink
    February 26, 2011 6:32 pm

    Wow! Powerful stuff. I’m so glad you’re all finding each other. I think that MV is unravelling, so expect to see more distributors peeling off in droves; and I’m sure they’ll be plenty bitter too.

    Your statements are so powerful — I keep thinking that you should band together and send all your stories as “victim impact statements” to the FTC. If there are a few of you in one state, you might also try to get the ear of a sympathetic congressman. There’s also the Department of Justice. Also, check out the Center for Science in the Public Interest — they’ve taken on some interesting class action suits in the past (they helped nailed Airborne and the acai weight loss pill scammers). Lastly, try to get in touch with the authors of the Forbes article on Woodworm’s pyramid scheming; they sure seem like they’d be sympathetic.

    You might also try Googling consumer class action lawyers and see what comes up.

  310. Orrinsux permalink
    February 26, 2011 6:42 pm

    V-Liz: yes, Colleen left all the craziness as soon as she physically and financially could. There is so much that I know about this situation but due to my promise to Colleen to keep things confidential I won’t go into the details.

    Unknown: If that really happened then that just puts the icing on the cake as far as I’m concerned. FACT: Chuckieboy (that’s what me and Colleen call him) cheated on Colleen with a girl sitting on the front row at the Tuesday night open meetings (During Amway days of course). He left that girl then found another one who he eventually settled down with. At least that’s the last I heard. I can tell you absolutely positively 1000% that Chuckieboy caused the marriage to crumble. He was nothing moors than a controlling *ss *ole! Those of you who know Colleen would remember that she showed up one weekend with very large……how do I say this…….hmmmm…….let’s just say she got a “Dolly Parton Makeover”. Ha! Chuckieboy made her get a “G” cup. Yes, a “G” cup. She didn’t want them but Chuckieboy was so mentally abusive to her she felt like she needed to submit to his authority. To prove my point the first thing she did when she finally got away from Chuckieboy was to get those ridiculous things taken out so that she looked normal. She had to beg Chuckieboy to spend time with their two small sons. She had to beg him for financial support. Colleen probably at times looked like a Ditz but it was all because of Chuckieboy’s controlling ego behind the scenes. I can assure you that he is NOT what they make him out to be that’s for sure. Everything i’ve said is 1000% true because I was very close to Colleen during this tough situation. Ugh!! I get so mad thinking about it.

  311. Orrinsux permalink
    February 26, 2011 6:46 pm

    Two more things: Colleen didn’t cheat on Chuckieboy and she actually did pull away from the biz because she had had enough of both Chuckieboy and Amway. At least they were right about the second thing. Ha!

  312. Dorothy permalink
    February 26, 2011 7:12 pm

    This commenter requested that her comments be removed from this site.

  313. Dorothy permalink
    February 26, 2011 7:15 pm

    This commenter requested that her comments be removed from this site.

  314. Dorothy permalink
    February 26, 2011 7:22 pm

    This commenter requested that her comments be removed from this site.

  315. webelieved permalink
    February 26, 2011 7:29 pm

    Here’s Part of the Rest of our Story….

    I honestly feel like I have been through a literal war physically and mentally because of my experiences on the Team. There were times when the stress was so bad my body would shut down and go to sleep. When all of these betrayals were going on that I mentioned in other posts, I developed major breathing problems and everytime someone would tell me what my discusting upline and some downline were doing behind my back, I would have an attack…… I just couldn’t get a good deep breath in my lungs all day long. I couldn’t even speak a full sentence without running out of breath. Folding laundry was too hard. I couldn’t physically do anything. There were many times I wouldn’t go to sleep at night because I thought I wouldn’t wake up, so I would call my good friend and talk all night . I was afraid, because I had times when I did sleep I would awake and I wasn’t breathing. My body was so tired and had to work so hard to breath. I was in and out of the dr offices and e.r. over a period of like 4 months because I couldn’t breath. I eventually ended up using an enhaler every three hours just to stay alive, but it wasn’t working well. Finally, after months of this mysterious illness, a N.P. friend had me come to her hospital and did like 20 tests including catscan for cancer. I was SO TIRED by then I had bags down my face, under my eyes and I could hardly talk my breath was so low. It had been something like 3-4 months since I had started having these symtoms chronically. I had to wait in bed for a week for the results at my parents, I couldn’t stay at my own house because they didn’t know what was causing it. By that time I physically couldn’t even speak…… I was so scared…. tired and fried.One night when I was afraid to go to bed, I wrote my husband and my two kids goodbye letters. I told them I was sorry about all the mistakes I had made and the time I had wasted (on the Team) and that Love and time with your loved ones was the only thing that really mattered….I wished I had made more memories instead of work like a dog.. all those years …… It was so sad…….. For a normal life span I hadn’t lived half my life and my kids were young….. I was so afraid and I didn’t want to leave them. I wasn’t ready to go and had no choice my body was so tired and I felt soooo sick. I thought I was going to die. I could not physically take ANY STRESS. Just walking was exhausting. I couldn’t even watch a ncis show, as it was too much stress for my broken body and mind.
    My oldest son at 10 took care of me and kept coming in to check if I was breathing… while I was sleeping. He was such a good boy and made me so proud. We had been given an epipen for an emergency and I had to show him how to use it. Just in case I wasnt breathing, as all chemicals etc. made my lungs burn and the Dr. wasn’t sure if I was having an allergic reaction to something………. After about a week, I finally got to see a the Pulmonary Specialist. He told me I wasn’t going to die, THANK GOD, that I had stress induced asthma. That acid from my stomach was in my lungs, sinuses, throat and vocal cords!!! That this is what he sees a lot in women under major stress!!!. He gave me a treatment plan and medications to get better, which took about another year to feel normal in my breathing. In the mean time, I have of course gained a lot of weight from inactivity, and have a long way to get back to health. But I am on my way. I had never had asthma before this……. now I still have to do things to manage it so it will not be as bad as it was. We had to be put on state aid and got medical and food benefits for the first time in our lives because we didn’t have any money to pay for insurance or the $10,000 bill. We couldn’t pay our taxes also since they took our money and my husband had no work. Talk about humiliating!!!! Enraging to say the least although I was too sick to do anything about it. We worked our arssses off in the Team. We never were afraid to work, and now we were broke. Oh did I mention my group was bringing in oh I would guess 10s of thousands of dollars a month in tool money????? I’ll will have to check the facts exactly… Hard to believe that a year prior we making a 6 figure income, mostly from the Team! and now we were lucky to be making @500 a month……WHAT? We almost lost our house, our credit is ruined, we have no retirement, health care, or anything now…..We can’t even go to the damn dentist!!! At the same time we were being slandered in our teams….because we had stopped associating at TEAM events, because of our uplines unethical practices…….. discusting. I say all this not for your pity, just to let people know the damage all this does to someones faith, family, fitness and finances. My family has watched for years, me suffer through chronic asthma, major depression, anger, guilt and rage over all the injustices we have seen for years as leaders on the Team. Some not even mentioned yet. It should not be taken lightly the destruction this group and it’s so called leaders have caused in our lives and many others. It all looks so good on the outside…….but beware I found it is not so good on the inside.

  316. UnKnown permalink
    February 26, 2011 7:33 pm


    Thank you for sharing your personal experience about the truth between Chuck and Colleen. I must say, my eye’s are opened. Chuck and Colleens ‘storey’ sounds EXACTLY like another Team Policy Council’s ‘true’ storey… but no one knows about this. This is another dark secret, probably Orrin doesn’t even know the ‘real’ character of those closest to him.

    I hope to hear more stories from you Orrinsux.

    What’s happening with Chuck today, meaning who is he following? Randy? Lance? I’m curious what those people are up too. The last time I heard about that whole group, I heard they were not doing well…

  317. webelieved permalink
    February 26, 2011 7:45 pm

    Thanks. I didn’t recongnize it as an abusive relationship until recently. Once I started reading on cults I finally saw that. I tend to wear my heart on my sleeve, and don’t like conflict so it was easy for them to abuse me. I just would keep going back for more. There could only be something wrong with me, not them. I took for granted everyone is like me, honest and compassionate. Not anymore. I have been abused enough by these people that now I am just royally pissed off!!! Except when Quit makes me laugh or Vogel makes me cry 🙂

  318. webelieved permalink
    February 26, 2011 7:52 pm

    Izzy thanks for the sites an commercial cult info I will check it out. Haven’t heard of that one. There are so many posts. holy toledo!!! Hard to keep up.

  319. team deception permalink
    February 26, 2011 8:05 pm

    I love Will’s idea of being able to get in contact with each other. So many positive things could happen from that. I am not sure how we could get that done but I love the idea. As I am reading these posts the one of the constant themes is hurt and loss. My question is now what? How can we organize this pain into something meaningful? I like where Vogel is headed with a class action, Senator, Dateline, or Forbes. How do we warn Pastor Steve Camp in Florida and the other churches these guys are laying the ground work to scam? What are our options?

    Amthrax, I think that so many people are commenting on here now has everything to do with TEAM/Monavie and its leaders (Chris Brady, Tim Marks, Orrin Woodward, Jim Martin etc.) acting more like it’s a cult than a business. When people leave the scam these leaders get on the phone and curse them out and inform them they are not sticking with the plan and they are making a horrible mistake. They then go on to treat them like dirt. You can go from having them pretend to be your best friend to having them not be a part of your life at all. Nice friendship huh? They are acting like this because the bottom of the pyramid is falling out from under them and they are scared and nervous!!!

  320. webelieved permalink
    February 26, 2011 8:09 pm

    Will OMG so many posts, so little time….lol. I had the same edification complaints. Not from Orrin, I put him on a pedestal, shamefully. My upline wanted more edification from me but he was a couch jockey and everytime he was in my group, mysteriosly people in my downline were pitted against me….. Not sure why, since I built my legs over silver for my downline, and went power player over and over….. while my guru upline rode the couch….. LOL. OH my gosh!! bust a gut!!!He is rich…for now …… Boy he was somethin. I guess you can ride the couch and make money on Team??? Did I mention he is the one who got extra credit for my taken profit sharing leg, that he was already getting credit for!!???? Oh boy does it get any better than that????

  321. webelieved permalink
    February 26, 2011 8:39 pm

    Hey what are your thoughts on crossling? I love it….. You should all do it. We could give eachother our numbers so we can do it more. Maybe a party line… It is ridiculous I bought into the crap you can’t talk to people. I was a speaker and can’t talk to people? What??? I thought the system was duplicatable. So it should all be the same info? Would your church tell you who you can and cannot talk to? . …. Boy this one pisd me off when I realized what B.s. that is. WHO THE HELL TELLS ANYONE IN THE REAL WORLD WHO THEY CAN TALK TO???? That is nutty, sadly teamsters like me were indoctrinated to think that is ok, that was my experience. I know of Diamonds telling people that were previously friends they shouldn’t talk to each other about business or if at all. OMG I cannot believe they got me to believe that crap!!!!Now I know it is really because THEY CAN HIDE SECRETS like how they screwed all of us! OH yeah thanks be to God for the internet…. The bathroom wall they said oh i was indoctrinated..My upline would follow me around when i was new so i couldn’t talk to anyone …. how demented. I trust all you anonymous people way more than them. it is discusting abuse…. Can you tell I feel oppressed. Oh I am just getting started, is anyone staying up late?

  322. webelieved permalink
    February 26, 2011 8:49 pm

    Whew that was so healing to tell you all that….. thanks for listening:) hope Amthrax isn’t sick of me…lol

  323. team deception permalink
    February 26, 2011 8:51 pm

    beleived, here is something I wrote to a teamster named “shaunjoeb” on another topic on amthrax that was blabbing his nonsense.

    “I wonder if Shaunjoeb got permission from his upline to say those things? As we all know the “minions” or “bottom of the pyramid” cannot say or do anything that is not pre-approved by their upline. He must not have listened to CD about blind obedience to the “life coach” enough times. How hilarious is it that grown men and women worship these life coaches? They will do whatever the life coach says no matter what the cost and then sit back and make fun of people that have normal money paying 9-5 jobs like they are the ones in captivity. “Dream big” as long as its what your life coach wants you to dream about. These guys dont see that they are ones in 24/7 captivity to their uplines and life coaches!!!”

    They call them life coaches?!?!?! That is awesome. Anyway, the crosslining inside the church is the worst. One body of Christ unified together in his work on the cross unless your not on my team. What?

  324. webelieved permalink
    February 26, 2011 9:05 pm

    Mentoring……good topic deception..
    Oh boy now they are going to give real life coaches a bad name???? You have got to be kidding. They are discustingly prideful.Who the hell do they think they are counseling anyone. They are not qualified!!!!! “These guys dont see that they are ones in 24/7 captivity to their uplines and life coaches” that is so sad and true. I was that way they make you dependent so you think you are not smart enought to decide anything and then they can steal your life and money in the name of God. discusting I bought into this too..They are the all knowing guru, kind compassionate,a servant. More like Kadafi from LYBIA!!! Ive seen some diamonds so arrogant about giving advice, it actually is funny how they are so full of themselves. They are experts in all areas of life.??? NOT. I even had one tell us not to go to bible studies….. huh and only a certain type of church, all the rest were wrong. …. What???

  325. Anonymous Aussie permalink
    February 26, 2011 9:34 pm

    I have to second that. I think enough people have realised they’ve been scammed and no doubt there’s more to follow.

    For the sake of anyone who has, who is or who will be (if this is allowed to continue) a victim of this atrocious scam (or the next when they decide to jump ship and leave an even bigger path of devastation), complaints to the appropriate authorities needs to happen – as well as a class action lawsuit.

    We’ve all be complaining on behalf of those who have been rorted and robbed for a long time now, but no doubt more credence would be given to those who’ve been directly impacted.

  326. Speak Your Truth permalink
    February 26, 2011 9:56 pm

    This is tragic and appalling, I am glad you survived this!
    That is just it; we are survivors!

    Now that’s some more positive for all those who are intoxicated on the Happy, I’m always so Happy-(system)

    Webelieved, I Quit, Izzy, Will, and all the rest that have been torn in many ways from this, sorry if I left you out, just wanted to say that Vogel & Humiliated have a very good point and I know, I and some others when we first left talked about class action but there was no way we were emotionaly or physically ready or had the strength to pursue that.

    I too had a similar story about a mysterious illness that took me out for about 18 months maybe I will share that some time.

    It is stories like this though that makes me capitalize every word I say because it infuriates me!

    So I might as well apologize right now for my earlier post because I let go of some of the pent up garbage, now I know I definitely need more healing, either that or take up target practice, boxing , or perhaps just move to Libya and join their cause or all of the above!
    Speaking of Libya I still believe we live in the greatest country in the world and am grateful. So sorry to everyone that gets annoyed by the capitalization (emotional speaking), it is annoying I know. But again I will thank you all for letting me rant, release and vent! I realize this has been from the oppression that was from so many years, plus I have just always wanted to tell “some what I thought of them!” So, I really hope the “some” are reading this but I am sure they are too gutless to come on here and post!

    I don’t think Amthrax could have foreseen or expected such a flood of bold people coming and it is just beginning! So I think it is safe to speak for us all and say Thank You again Amthrax for allowing us to vent the oppression!

  327. Speak Your Truth permalink
    February 26, 2011 10:10 pm

    You have my permission to give my email to team deception, will, webelieved, I Quit but just a warning I forgot my password for my email and have not checked it since I started it recently so I will try and get on that right away.

  328. Speak Your Truth permalink
    February 26, 2011 11:37 pm

    Thank You for the validation, kind and wise words. I appreciate them and sure the others do too.
    This has been a long and arduous journey to put it very mildly, to even get to this point, which I believe and think it is evident in all the recent posts. I agree with all you have shared and know this is just the beginning to the healing and actions that we will and are facing. I also deeply believe, as painful as this has been, there is a reason that will catapult me and others into the real purpose and journey of our continued futures.
    This process is a very difficult one to express and explain, there are a lot of emotional and for some (me included) physical healing to complete. I too had a similar mysterious illness that took me completely out for 18 months, which I never got an answer to for the debilitating symptoms nor could it be explained my many tests, doctors, and thousands of dollars. I am way better now but it has taken a long time and I am grateful to be alive and set free. I too thought I wouldn’t recover and have a strong inclination it was due to oppression and stress.
    Generally I would consider myself realistic but optimistic too, but this experience has taken a tremendous toll in so many ways. I believe I and the others who are speaking out will find the healing needed.
    Speaking out on this site has been very freeing and for myself, believes it is a stepping stone to a greater healing that is yet to come.
    So again, thank you for the validation, it is so needed for all of us that have been struggling and are breaking free.

  329. Speak Your Truth permalink
    February 26, 2011 11:59 pm

    Glad you are here and sorry for your unpleasant experience, but as they say welcome to the crowd, you are definitely not alone here.
    This is very sad and makes me angry about the “not paying your friends”, especially when it is so extremely repetitious and noisy how they tout, their “Living by Christian principles, Integrity, Honesty, Humbleness etc., etc., they are just words that they do not follow.

  330. Speak Your Truth permalink
    February 27, 2011 12:03 am

    Amen to that! I wish the whole firm of attorney’s and fraud experts would come here to read this blog too!
    Nothing would satisfy me more to expose the whole truth, because even though there is a lot shared on here there is much more that can be learned and exposed.

  331. Speak Your Truth permalink
    February 27, 2011 12:05 am

    Thanks for your generous ideas. Now it is where to go from here.

  332. Speak Your Truth permalink
    February 27, 2011 12:10 am

    I think I might have heard that one you might be referring to.

  333. webelieved permalink
    February 27, 2011 5:54 am

    Thanks for sharing. I am sorry for your friends…. What a disaster they have created.

  334. webelieved permalink
    February 27, 2011 6:22 am

    I know for me the humor and irony of some things is soooo healing. I haven’t laughed for years, so I hope you will forgive me. Thank you for reminding me that my humor may hurt someone when they get out and I certainly do not want that. As much as some make me soooo angry, I certainly can forgive them and love them when they remove their cult personality and see the truth..It is such a painful process. I would have the utmost grace and forgiveness for them, yes even the ones who deeply wounded me! because I was given grace and forgiveness for my involvment (Thankfully). I know they are under mind control and would not do some of the things that have been done to me. I am so glad for others grace for all the things I had done….. If the one’s i had hurt hadn’t given it to me I think I would have died. So anyone that comes out can come and see me and get a big HUG and lots of love…. 🙂 as I know they were abused too.

  335. webelieved permalink
    February 27, 2011 6:24 am

    Good for Colleen for having the strength to move on to something better in her life!!! and removing the excess weight….urhhmmm
    It is disturbing some people’s selfishness !!!! WOW

  336. humiliated permalink
    February 27, 2011 7:42 am

    webelieved, Speak your truth & anyone else that feels the need to purge…please don’t apologize for your posts! You guys are amazing & very informative! You are speaking honestly and from the heart, and it is extremely cathartic for you, so let it flow! SPEAK IN ALL CAPITAL LETTERS IF YOU FEEL LIKE IT!!!! PUNCH A PILLOW!!!! CRY!!!DO ALL OF THE THINGS YOU HAVEN’T BEEN ALLOWED TO DO!!!SAY ALL OF THE THINGS YOU HAVEN’T BEEN ALLOWED TO SAY!!!

    Whew, it is exhausting talking in capital letters! Your posts are also a fascinating insight into the black hole that it TEAM/Monavie. It truly is disturbing how you people were manipulated right out of the gate. Can someone explain specifically what they were afraid that the “newbies” would discover so you had to be isolated? Were you instructed to do this to your ‘newbies’?

    I am also confused as to how/why certain people were “chosen” to have the money? How is that you could/would lose your downline? Was it just arbitrary? Did anyone keep copies of their original contracts? How about the “new” contract”?

    Webelieved, you are absolutely right, these people are NOT qualified to be life coaches! Considering that you can become “certified” on-line in a month with some programs, I am not even sure I agree with the concept generally. I think that you need years and years of formal and informal study of the human condition before you can assume the honor of trying to assist someone in finding their “potential” and these programs should be very individualized. The only thing that your “leaders” are teaching you is how to be effective con men/women. Truly diabolical.

    I think it is fantastic that you all will be chatting “off-line” and take the healing to a deeper level. Please continue to educate and share anything with us that you feel “safe” divulging.

    I also love all of Vogel’s suggestions! Let me know if I can help with anything!!

    Isn’t liberation wonderful?? I am feeling so optimistic for all of you!!

  337. Vogel permalink
    February 27, 2011 7:47 am

    As I’m reading these first hand accounts, I keep thinking how they match the clinical definition of post-traumatic stress disorder to a tee.

    This is serious stuff. You’ve all been through the ringer.

    In addition to recruiting the FTC, the media, and a class action litigator, I’d love it if we could get a couple of counselors on here who specialize in (a) cults and (b) PTSD.

    One step at a time…you’re off to a great start !

  338. Ryan Seewald - Job Free Musician. permalink
    February 27, 2011 8:36 am

    hmm… how odd. because I’m practically stress free. yet we’ve all involved ourselves in the same business.

  339. humiliated permalink
    February 27, 2011 8:47 am

    Ryan. Are you kidding me? Have you READ these posts? For the love of God, have the decency to leave these people alone and do NOT minimize their pain with your colossal load of B.S..

    Seriously, please don’t turn this into your soap box and let these people grieve . It is what a decent human being would do. You may or may not agree with what is being said here but now is NOT the time to turn this into a debate. There is so much pain here . If you come back on here, it will show that you truly are a heartless, selfish, ego-manical bastard.

    I beg of you, go away. These are human beings who have suffered greatly and you NEED to show them some respect.

  340. Ryan Seewald - Job Free Musician. permalink
    February 27, 2011 9:19 am

    Humiliated. Well said, and i agree, much respect must be paid forward to all people. absolutely, and i thank you for not being harsh and disrespectful like many others on here tend to treat me.

    Call me a “heartless, selfish, ego-manical, basterd.” But i’m not leaving just yet and for good reason. here =) let me show you something.

    “There is so much pain here.” as you said, and this is true. and it is still true, since this site was created, and it will remain true until attitudes and direction of the people here change. Here people say ‘Yes! CRY! Be upset!’ (<— loosely quoted) and they place and blame all of their pain on "the man". Yes i know you've all been hurt, But residing on here doesn't help when all you guys do is talk about and make fun of and gossip about something you hate. It only creates more hate and sorrow, and makes a habit of it. And then everyone here gets turned into this attacking person any time they are confronted with anything they don't like… rather then just dealing with it or learning to accept, like you want me to do. And if you don't believe that is true, look at my posts and tell me that Aurora or Rocket or Vlogel doesn't leap head on into attack mode every time i make an appearance. Now i admit my last comment was asking for it lol, however if you read any of my other posts you'll notice i don't attack anyone first… well good luck mate

  341. Ryan Seewald - Job Free Musician. permalink
    February 27, 2011 9:20 am

    or as my brother said “anyone who actually reads everything on here will end the day depressed” lol

  342. Vogel permalink
    February 27, 2011 9:26 am

    Dude…just F off! already. These people are cult survivors and PTSD victims. Part of their recovery process involves being able to freely share their thoughts and feelings without having some insensitive douche (active cult member) telling them that just need to be quiet and get over it. Their healing will near completion when justice is served. Pick up your kazoo and write a song about that (but lord, please, don’t make me listen to it…I’m still trying to recover from the aural rape inflicted from listening to your cacophonous ode to Monavie).

  343. Vogel permalink
    February 27, 2011 9:34 am

    Ryan said: “And if you don’t believe that is true, look at my posts and tell me that Aurora or Rocket or Vlogel doesn’t leap head on into attack mode every time i make an appearance.”

    Go to a forum for survivors of rape or incest and tell the victims that they need to be quiet because they are only making things worse by talking about it…see how warmly your comments are received. You’re a clueless, heartless, sociopath…a perfect fit for TEAM Monavie.

  344. humiliated permalink
    February 27, 2011 9:48 am

    Ok Ryan, I was trying to have some respect for you but you are now asking for it. I have read your posts Ryan and I am sorry to say but now, more then ever, I think you are a little mentally unbalanced. I respectfully asked you to go away and I would have had a great deal of respect for you had you done this. You haven’t.

    You have shown me nothing except that you are more interested in being RIGHT then being a caring & compassionate human being. Please, do yourself a favor and google “commercial cults” and see how RIGHT you are.

    These people aren’t gossiping, they are slowly getting to the TRUTH about the people they idolized, something you appear to know little about. They are purging. They need to CONFRONT the demon before they can let it go, it is all part of the healing process.To block this is to deny the pain. Since you are in NO WAY qualified to come on here and dictate how this process should work, again, I respectfully ask that you go away.

    BTW “the MAN” you refer to is a criminal who is perpetrating consumer fraud against innocent people & their families, so forgive me if I harbor a little anger or hatred. Good thing HE is your idol.

    Ryan,I feel compassion for you because, if you are any kind of a human being, you will be reacting just like everyone else here when you realize that you have laid down your life, your morals and your ethics for a common criminal. And you know what? These people that you are telling to “just get over it” and “move on” will be here to help you to crawl and then walk through your pain.

    Know that there is NOTHING you can say right now except for “I am sorry” (period) that will benefit anyone.

  345. February 27, 2011 9:52 am

    I’m moderating Ryan’s comments from here on out. I’ve decided that this blog post should be reserved for ex-TEAM members to discuss their personal stories and experiences. If you want to debate the virtues of TEAM, you can find plenty of posts here:

  346. humiliated permalink
    February 27, 2011 10:00 am

    Vogel. Wierd, I was writing my post as you were writing yours and they are very similar! Your comment “Go to a forum for survivors of rape or incest and tell the victims that they need to be quiet because they are only making things worse by talking about it…” is so right, it is scary. I have done work with abused women and children and they talked & talked until their hearts were rid of the darkness that had lived within them for years. It was after this that they began to fill their hearts with light and move forward. No one is saying that you have to be “stuck in the past” but you certainly can not avoid moving through it either.

  347. humiliated permalink
    February 27, 2011 10:02 am

    Good call Amthrax. This needs to be a safe place!

  348. Will permalink
    February 27, 2011 10:15 am

    I remember my upline ‘The Man’ getting upset and trying to make me feel guilty for making financial decisions for my family without consulting him.

    I am sorry, but I am a GROWN MAN and can manage my finances fine. My wife is a GROWN WOMAN and is capable of thinking on her own. We made a decision as a family to buy a new house and car over during the time that we were building team. We were looking to move and needed a new car ANYWAYS, even prior to joining this business. THE MAN (Orrin) got upset because he thought we were not looking up to him as we should and using him as a MENTOR. WTF – I understand taking your advice on building a network marketing business, because that is what you do (even though I now know you apply immoral, illegal tactics), however, you are not qualified to give me advice on my finances or my marriage and every other area of my life that you want to control.

    Looking back it cracks me up that they think they are marriage counselors and all that garbage. Most of the Diamonds and Triple 100s in the business have MEGA issues with their families and finances. They DISGUISE the fact that they are struggling financially on stage by showing all their fancy BLING and talking about trips they go on, but in reality most of their businesses and leaders are going backwards and broke. Show me one successful business that Orrin has setup on the outside of his Team mlm…PLEASE someone show me ONE!!! He always talks a big game that he invests him money in other businesses (playing around in the famous B type quadrant), however, only stories that I ever heard in the field from Triple 100s, RT members and other PC members who left this business like Billy Florence and Randy Haugen is that the guy is a FOOL financially and all of his businesses that he tries to start on the outside FAIL.

  349. February 27, 2011 11:30 am

    Hi, Orrinsux, please be rest assured that I would never ask personal questions about people’s personal lives, and the reason why I asked if she has left TEAM is because I’m always glad when someone leave such a rotten organisation. I can’t wait until the day I can report my upline realises her mistake and leaves TEAM.

  350. I Quit ( and glad I did) permalink
    February 27, 2011 11:51 am

    Amthrax- As I was reading to get caught up I of course came across Ryans insensitivity. I was going to suggest to all that the ultimate strategy for dealing with this dufus would be for everyone to unconditionally ignore him. Under no circumstance would ANY of us respond to any idiotic post of his. This would take INCREDIBLE discipline but if we can all build this “biz” then we can certainly do it. Think of how FRUSTRATING it would be to have ZERO response!! I would thoroughly enjoy participating in that program!! Sorry if you disagree but I’m kinda wired that way!! Just a thought….

  351. I Quit ( and glad I did) permalink
    February 27, 2011 11:54 am

    After leaving a few posts he would actually be getting help from us in making himself look as moronic as he obviously is.

  352. I Quit ( and glad I did) permalink
    February 27, 2011 11:56 am

    I am in awe of your ability with the English language! You are officially one of my heros!!!!

  353. I Quit ( and glad I did) permalink
    February 27, 2011 12:09 pm

    Ya know guys, I found this site by a fluke of chance. Or was it divine intervention?! I believe the latter but whatever. I was just researching around on a whim to see if anyone I knew was making any headway yet. We quit this thing back in “08 and I hadn’t pursued anything with it since then. So why all of a sudden do I get this urge to look around? Why did I think of this nightmare at all? Good question. Wild huh? All I can say is I’m very glad to be here with ya’ll now. It’s nice to know we weren’t alone in our feelings/experiences. I’m also glad to be part of the healing process for others. I realize now that I needed a little help myself. The best part is I know if you’re here, its real.

    P.S.- I still want to kick someones ass.

  354. team deception permalink
    February 27, 2011 12:14 pm

    Amthrax, you can give my email address to anyone of these guys/gals that want it. It’s all about helping and if I can I will.

  355. humiliated permalink
    February 27, 2011 12:28 pm

    I quit. I agree, I think that dealing with someone like Ryan is with deafening silence as he is like a naughty child, where bad attention is better then no attention at all…I have read his posts in the past and just rolled my eyes, but this time he crossed a line and i couldn’t let him get away with it.

    It is good that you want to pull out an extra large can of WHOOP ASS now! It means you are prepared for battle!!

  356. February 27, 2011 1:52 pm

    I am going to look up the movie myself.

  357. orrinsux permalink
    February 27, 2011 1:52 pm

    Does anyone know whatever happened to Mark Crawford, Don Wilson, Randy Haugen, and the other Amway Diamonds who followed Orrin? I’d love to know what happened to them.

  358. February 27, 2011 1:57 pm

    Wow, I wish Ryan Seewald can seriously read this particular post, as well as the one where Vogel exposes that Guru site, he should think twice after reading it :-s or perhaps not…too much “negativity” :-p

  359. Will permalink
    February 27, 2011 2:08 pm

    Who is the other PC member?

  360. Speak Your Truth permalink
    February 27, 2011 2:21 pm

    I am going to attempt to answer some of your questions, this may get lengthy, and it might get a little confusing because of the “language” used in the organizations. , I will do my best and maybe others will comment and shed more light that would further help in the understanding.
    Your comment:
    It truly is disturbing how you people were manipulated right out of the gate. Can someone explain specifically what they were afraid that the “newbies” would discover so you had to be isolated?

    First, there is 2 ways that the isolation plays out, “inside & outside.”
    The manipulation and isolation begins by trying to control the “newbies” information right from the start, it is very important(and all the leaders know this) so that they only get the information from the system and get them immediately to an open meeting, seminar, major, or house meeting (where they would bring their prospects and others whose leaders are working with in their teams would do the same, “TEAM APPROACH” Sling, Squeeze, Side Action = ANOTHER LONG POST), the reason this is important, is so if they would talk to someone or read anything that was “negative” or anything that would raise “DOUBT”( leaders spent a great majority of time trying to control this, hence why they try a silence the critic, those that have the biggest business became the best at this, so if you wanted to really make it you would have to get good at this, (shameful I know, I am as we speak even seeing more of what becomes blinded, most don’t recognize this it is a slow and patient process and I just by writing it am seeing how really shameful it is) and we have a very large organization, this topic alone would take a book).You have to keep this fresh in the “newbies” minds that what they have just been sold: “that they could get financially free, all their dreams, etc” needs to be extremely controlled in the beginning, until you can get them “sold on the idea by all the Happy, Excited People, fully vested etc, that eventually they themselves buy into. Everyone is different some take many seminars but others buy it hook, line and sinker after the first one. (That and team approach, is why there are such large numbers because this is extremely effective.)

    Doubt is the number 1 killer of anyone’s business, and they all know it. I cannot stress this enough, how important this is to them. I could go on for days about the indoctrination but hope this clarifies some of it.
    Secondly, the “isolation” that I think webelieved is referring to is the isolation that all of us on here are expressing right now, that we have all felt because of fear, exhaustion and not enough strength to speak out, hence why it takes some years to start to speak out.

    Your questions
    Did anyone keep copies of their original contracts? How about the “new” contract”?
    I explained the exact process in a conversation, Feb. 18, 2011 with “Jhon”, under the “WWDB Triple Diamonds Greg Duncan Bankrupt” so for the sake of repeating that post, hopefully you can read it and it answers those questions. (Speaking of which, I wonder if Amthrax could get the post’s numbered?)

    Your questions
    I am also confused as to how/why certain people were “chosen” to have the money? How is that you could/would lose your downline?
    The “losing your downline,” people are referring to the transition from Q to MV.
    This is my number 1, of my hottest buttons (and my spouse) as you can see from my earlier post of all caps, thanks by the way for understanding. Holy crap, I don’t even know if I can get this out to anyone and it could even remotely resemble a clear picture!

    This was the end, where there was no way to deny the truth, it was the all telling, the revealing of their true Character, Greed and the Most Unspeakable Injustice, it is exactly why we confronted, stood up and not even for ourselves, it was for our team that they destroyed through this very process, people being threatened, stolen, and manipulated. This puts me in a fighting mode that I cannot even describe.

    Finally my spouse could without a doubt, could see clearly that Orrin and our Diamond Guzzardo( he was inside these guys heads for well over a decade, to say we know these people would be an understatement, the worst abuse of friendship I have seen in my life, the clever manipulation for years of how “they cared” it is completely and utterly despicable and believe me it is a good thing we were many miles away, the anger I felt at what they did to rip out someone’s heart and then stomp on it and spit on it is truly undesirable!

    I will try and get back on track here, they needed to Rank THEMSELVES,(MV plan, which no-one understood because no-one even knew they we were shifting to until the last minute) “The controllers” of this unspeakable actions, Orrin and Guzzardo’s at least in our group, except we were putting our outside legs in ourselves(this may not make sense to you) but our main taproot and another big leg the Guzzardo’s were DICTATING (and I am serious, this I am not even sure is the most appropriate word)this is a whole another long, long story, I hope you can get some understanding though. Besides themselves, that was the first and foremost importance of the ranking, they wanted “certain and chosen Leaders” the one’s that had built and they didn’t want them to quit because they needed them with this new “pay-plan” to be able to make money so they would continue (2-fold and they could show MV how many “big leaders and numbers they had, this feeds into their ego like you would not believe, which I have heard there was a “special deal there but for the world to see if or what the TRUTH is? This would probably be highly unlikely that we would ever see the facts. They were protecting and trying to get others to steal and take their own personal’s and give them to certain leaders was criminal to us is exactly why I have such a difficult time containing myself(which I believe Will explained it very well.) These leaders, us and the rest on here are the ones that built their organizations for them brought huge numbers, so they could live the lifestyles they tout and are living and bragging about to this day. I believe with all my heart they “chose” certain one’s based on loyalty and those that did exactly as they would tell without question. I would have to tell the rest of the story, in another book.

    Now, you have to stitch over to their “Leadership/Dev. Bogus, Indoctrination System”, where we were paid for the “system “based on the numbers we brought except that is all we knew, it wasn’t like they told you,’ you make so much an hour,” they had “they proprietary formula” that not even the “profit-sharers” who were paid from it knew exactly how you were paid and could not figure out if they were even being honest and paying you right or to check if they may have made any mistakes in calculating. This is totally separate from the “product business.” This again, where they chose certain leaders to give ours and others “the very numbers that would qualify us for that profit-sharing to be paid to us” but they gave to someone else “upline” so therefore, they can justify them not paying us. This is again a very long, long, story how they came to this conclusion, but it is another book full of lies, deception, and downright corruption. I know this is extremely long but will give you insight into the minds of the calculated corruption that many of us have suffered. It is a very dark and complicated web that began years ago from the founders of the System. That is why I believe with every cell in my body, that if you remove the “indoctrination/ system, you will be left with either a legitimate sales business or they would collapse. It is not the other way around.

  361. February 27, 2011 2:30 pm

    Hi, Webelieved, I have a “Crosslining Story” – When I first joined MV/TEAM, I also met another lady from church who was quite excited about the scientific part of Monavie. Now, she was like me, love researching. I didn’t know her number, and I wanted to talk science talk with the lady so I asked my upline for her number, and she knew that I know the lady from church, and played guitar with my husband’s father. That’s the first I’ve heard of Crosslining. My upline told me she won’t give me the lady’s number because I was in the B leg, and the other gal was in the A leg. Then she went on to explain that talking to other team members who are not directly in the same leg as I was could destroy the upline’s business. I didn’t understand what she was talking about, and she set up an appointment with me, her upline and herself to explain to me.

    Here’s what they told me — In Claude Hamilton’s team, there were 2 legs. There were also 2 friends who happened to be in opposite legs. They would talk, but nothing about business. One guy was working his business and the other guy wasn’t working as hard but still was making a sizable income. Now since the other guy really working his busienss was meeting with Claude more often than the other fella. One day, the nworking-hard fella mentioned that Claude was busy and he only got to see him a couple of times a week. The not-so-working-hard fella said really? and that he only got to see him once every three days. Then jealousy set in and both of them ended up badmouthing each other’s team and it nearly ruined Claude Hamiliton’s business.

    I was careful to not crossline at all after hearing that.

    I’m kinda wondering now as I wrote this, how plausible this story really is. It does seem like the working-hard fella was actually trying to spark jealousy, I don’t know. It does all seem twisted.

    Sorry, I still am confused, and I have so many questions in my head, maybe I do need some more deprogramming, I know it doesn’t seem fair, but on the other hand it was to prevent jealousy, I don’t know. You mean crosslining was forbidden in all of TEAM? Not just Claude Hamilton’s team?

    Anyway, enough of my mumbo-jumbo, that’s what I experienced, hope someone does make sense out of it, I want to get to the bottom of all this crap. Regards, Izzy

  362. February 27, 2011 2:34 pm

    It is really good to let stuff off my chest, for sure, but all this seem so confusing, I just know that I’m angry, I’m facing this debt every day, I’m trying to forgive my upline, I’m going to get rid of my last box of TEAM materials, but I’m still battling emotions and stuff. I think it’s safe to say I’m still in shock and disbelief. I know what I got out of is wrong, though.

  363. February 27, 2011 2:39 pm

    @Vogel, have you ever heard of Rick Ross? He’s a professional cult deprogrammer, and I have been to his forum when I searched under commercial cults and TEAM, and found a few posts on Amway/Quixtar, I had to dig realy deep, though.

    His site is here —– I think he is religous, but at least he doesn’t overdo it. It might be a good place to dig into, and I’m thinking of contacting him myself about my experience with TEAM. There’s so much that I want to do, and I really do want to write my own blog post before I do anything, just working on an outline before I do anything.

    Regards, Izzy

  364. February 27, 2011 2:41 pm

    Ryan, I strongly urge you to be completely honest with yourself. If you’re not, then your life will be empty. Think about it.

  365. February 27, 2011 2:43 pm

    Thanks, Amthrax.

  366. webelieved permalink
    February 27, 2011 3:04 pm

    Dorothy, P.s. There would have to be a repentent heart, though.

  367. webelieved permalink
    February 27, 2011 3:13 pm

    Vogel, Thanks for that!!! You made me laugh again!!! I’m glad this teambot is off of here. He is either someone who didn’t get in too far, or is favored by his upline. Either way I will not waste my time. 🙂

  368. webelieved permalink
    February 27, 2011 3:25 pm

    Thanks Amthrax, I am glad you got him off this post. I have to point out to Ryan, AT LEAST AMTHRAX LETS YOU POST ON HIS SITE, AGAINST HIS OPINION, UNLIKE ORRIN WOODWARD!!! I cannot imagine Orrin having an open complaint blog on his site!!! He only allows anything positive toward him and Team so his minions, zombies (like I was) would keep following him! I may as well have lived under a dictatorship! I was a prisoner in a free country!!! It is called information control, just what cults do, and IT IS WRONG!!!!!!

  369. webelieved permalink
    February 27, 2011 3:27 pm

    Pretty cool how God works. Me too!!! I didn’t look at it for years!
    you are still making me laugh!!!

  370. webelieved permalink
    February 27, 2011 3:48 pm

    Im pretty sure Randy and Mark are building MV with Legacy Business Group International. i think.

    They wrote a statement that I think sheds a lot of light on why they quit Team. I think they wanted a more transparent tool business that wasn’t costing distributors and arm and leg. If I am not mistaken they also wanted more family friendly things, and free things like webinars, or cheap downloads etc. I haven’t checked lately. They actually admitted they have beeen in networking for years on their videos not like Orrin who says he went black diamond in like what 3 days,,,,sarcasm intended. I think they tried to make some things better on the tool side.
    Billy Florence went to almost all free stuff. They use Black Diamond University some and free webcasts etc. They don’t care about tool money from what I could gather from someone on their team. They think the juice pays well enough. Those are all the facts I know about them. 🙂

  371. Will permalink
    February 27, 2011 3:50 pm

    Izzy – Will you create your own blog or will you just have Amthrax post an article for you on this site?

  372. Will permalink
    February 27, 2011 3:51 pm

    I have heard from numerous sources that both Billy and Randy DESPISE orrin. Go figure.

  373. Will permalink
    February 27, 2011 3:54 pm

    my guess is Claude, the guy is sleezy and I have heard many crazy stories about him from team members.

  374. webelieved permalink
    February 27, 2011 3:56 pm

    Here is a copy and paste off and their guiding principles. Now if anyone doesn’t get this: they are diamonds who left Orrin and Team and started their own training company. Legacy Business International. Here are their Guiding Principles….


    1. Your community is your asset. The greater the size, profitability, unity and leadership of your community, the greater its potential value.

    2. Legacy welcomes people from all backgrounds.

    3. Legacy promotes all values conducive to a healthy community with a foundation based on honesty, integrity and trust. Any activity not in alignment with these values is not acted upon, regardless of profitability or further growth.

    4. The business pattern used, although continually developed over time, stays simple and effective. Our goal is to help people see results quickly.

    5. The support costs are kept low enough that people can earn a net profit at an early level.

    6. Provide entry level, intermediate and advanced levels of leadership training in order to yield a natural alignment between an individual’s leadership development and the needs of their growing community.

    7. Training emphasizes a balance between community-building knowledge and product knowledge. The success and the integrity of operation depend upon both.

    8. Any business support profits are dispersed equitably based on a transparent profit sharing plan. All qualified participants share equitably
    according to this profit sharing plan. All financials are transparent with Legacy’s board members and verified by an independent CPA firm.

    9. The organizational culture promotes “family first” and “fun” throughout the organization’s activities.
    Legacy recognizes successful members for result oriented achievements and openly welcomes community input.

    10. The purpose for Legacy is to support the opportunity, not to be the opportunity

  375. Will permalink
    February 27, 2011 3:58 pm

    Cross-lining!! Don’t get me started, I will need proposal 19 to go thru in order to cope with my anger that I am feeling about this topic! lol

  376. Speak Your Truth permalink
    February 27, 2011 4:05 pm

    If it is the one that I heard, he would have dark skin, could be wrong though.

  377. humiliated permalink
    February 27, 2011 4:09 pm

    Thank you for that Speak, I am not sure that I understand it all but it all sounds very cloak and dagger, and not in the least bit legal! I will check the other post that you mentioned.

  378. Speak Your Truth permalink
    February 27, 2011 4:17 pm

    Vogel, Humiliated, & Amthrax
    Thanks from the bottom of my heart for your graciousness and FOR HAVING OUR BACKS.
    What an unselfish act!
    I pray by grace that you will see some how, what this really means to us.
    We are truly grateful, not to mention it takes a lot of energy to fight off the brainwashed, lying,wolfs.
    That is nothing compared to what you would get from one of the Policy Counsel, but I am sure you would be up for it, but them cowards use only their pawns! LOL
    I wonder if Ryan is being paid or just getting his ego stroked (paid),when he reports back in, for sure the latter, that is exactly how Orrin works.
    Which you do with an some amazing accuracy!
    Thanks a bunch!

  379. Will permalink
    February 27, 2011 4:17 pm

    Ohhhhh SNAAAAAPPPPP!!!!

  380. February 27, 2011 4:22 pm

    Will, it’ll be on my own WordPress blog (that’s why i got this new name because when I migrated my Windows Live Spaces to WordPress I got set up with this account, then later I came here to Amthrax’s blog WordPress automatically signed me into my velizabethwhite account so I decided to keep it) Anyway, I’m going to post on my own WordPress blog, then after that I’m going to contact Rick Ross and tell him my story, would like to see Orrin Woodward put on there. Not sure how far that will go.

    But let me make it clear – I do ***NOT*** want to take away from Amthrax’s blog in any way, he’s doing a much better job than what I can even think of doing. The reason why I want to have a post up is so that I can easily tell people my story, and hope people like Rick Ross and other cult awareness site owners can help get all this melarkey into the mainstream.

  381. Vogel permalink
    February 27, 2011 4:24 pm

    Ummm…TEAM or Legacy…really all the same to me. You can’t build an honest business around a dishonest product. There’s just no way that anyone can justify the stupidly high cost or over-the top-claims of this worthless juice.

  382. Will permalink
    February 27, 2011 4:31 pm

    Izzy – take your tools to the curbside!! You will get the greatest sense of relief. It does blow knowing you are dumping out thousands and thousands of dollars. But in the end it is worthless crap anyways. I actually sat on my tools for years thinking I could sell them on ebay, but once I looked at all this #$%& on ebay I realized that it held NO VALUE and nobody wanted. I offered $7,000 worth of tools (Brand New) and it only went for $50. I was so upset I cancelled the auction and burned it all so that I could at least get some INSTANT GRATIFICATION out of that!! 😉 I know we are taught that INSTANT GRATIFICATION is the devil, but ‘DAMN! IT feels good to be a gangsta!!!’ To quote one of my favorite movies.

  383. February 27, 2011 4:32 pm

    We have been hurt emotionally from this team system – because everything we did was controlled by our uplines. We have been told not to even talk with other team members that aren’t even in the same upline’s binary legs.

    We have been hurt physically from the team system – because of the stress we had. So much turmoil, strain on relationships with our family and friends, some of us landed in hospital. I myself suffered big depression, I literally felt it in my chest – a tightening feeling. I had a miscarriage in April of last year, I think stress killed the baby.

    We have been hurt financially from the team system – always putting money in and never getting a cheque. Working our asses off months in my case, years in most others’ cases. Draining our bank accounts, maxing out our credit cards/limits because we need to sacrifice and be in debt in order to be successful.

    Now will you tell you why we react in anger???

  384. team deception permalink
    February 27, 2011 4:32 pm

    Crosslining!!! In 2005 my kid had a b-day party and wanted to invite some of his friends from church. Yes, its the church that Orrin Woodward, Chris Brady, Tim Marks, Jim Martin went to, and it was a nightmare. Two of the kids that we had invited were on different legs in TEAM and were told buy their upline that it would be better if they did not allow the kids to go to the party!! Thanks great leaders.

  385. Will permalink
    February 27, 2011 4:40 pm

    Izzy – I am soooo sorrrry to hear about your pain and loss that you and your family experienced. You will be in our thoughts and prayers and I HOPE that you feel a sense of relief, calm and encouragement knowing that you are FREE on the road to recovery (like we all are) and our lives will ALL be better for moving forward in a positive direction vs. being TRAPPED in the SYSTEM (literally and metaphorically). I hope that we have the opportunity to meet one day or talk in person. I am positive that we could help each other cope, heal and move on. God Bless you!

  386. Will permalink
    February 27, 2011 4:48 pm

    Vogel – I agree. I think both organizations are involved in the SHADY quadrant, if you will, in the mlm world. I think Pampered Chef does a good example at being an honest, legit mlm and a company that can be used as a benchmark for what an mlm should be. (I am not a pamperd chef distributor and quite frankly I no longer have the energy to pursue another mlm EVER…due to my experience with Orrin Woodward in Team). But I do think that Pampered Chef does everything right (No pressure to SIGN UP, NO TOOL SCAM, and they RETAIL the products. THEY LEAD with the products and not the income opportunity and they also do not make you PERSONALLY consume $500 of juice each month or have a monthly pv requirement). Sorry to get off topic…just saying that I agree that Team and Legacy are in a very SHYYYYTTTIIIIEEE business.

    I will say that if you rank douche’s in this industry. Orrin Woodward and Chris Brady are at the top and Randy Haugen and other leaders who LEFT Orrin would be at the bottom. They seem to have more integrity than the Team MonaVie kingpins. I don’t agree with their choice of business that they participate in, however, I do agree with their integrity for CHOOSING to LEAVE Orrin Woodward and his SCAM.

  387. team deception permalink
    February 27, 2011 4:49 pm

    Vogel, lets not forget that 99.64% of people do not make any money in this scam….. It only leads to pain and a loss of friends. When I ask TEAMSTERS why they have to work two jobs and have the wife pick up a job or two just to break even they say that its not all about the money but its about becoming a leader. Tools scam or Juice Scam its a scam either way and the end result is your going to be broke with no one to lead.

  388. Will permalink
    February 27, 2011 4:54 pm

    Team Deception – too funny. The first thing these leaders do (I am talking Round Table Members, Former Triple 100s etc) is MAKE their wives go back and get jobs when the business FAILS to pull in the cash.


  389. humiliated permalink
    February 27, 2011 5:02 pm

    I agree Vogel. I think they just saw the writing on the wall and decided to create their own scam, creating a bunch of B.S. principles they thought would attract all of the defectors of TEAM. It is manipulation at it’s finest, they are just saying what they think people now want to hear but it still makes NO sense. What the hell are these people selling and why? What on earth makes them qualified to think that they can train anyone in anything except the age old profession of snake oilery (my new word)? It is still just another pyramid scheme atop a pyramid scheme.

    BTW, in my job, the CEO doesn’t presume to have the talent to “train” us in ANY part of the job. Training is contracted out to professionals with their various specialities, who have formally educated & established themselves in their “areas, they also have spotless reputations. But then again, I don’t work for a cult organization where any Joe off the street has the unmitigated gall to presume to tell me how to run my business and my life. Seriously, who the hell are Randy & Mark and why would ANYONE listen to them???

  390. UnKnown permalink
    February 27, 2011 5:03 pm

    #10 of the Legacy GUIDING PRINCIPALS is unbelievable.

    “The purpose for Legacy is to support the opportunity, not to be the opportunity”


    I heard Mark Crawford and Randy Haugen’s Teams are hurting big time. Actually, I’ve heard many of their people are quiting, previous big leaders who were job optional are now working jobs and many are leaving to go to other opportunities.

  391. February 27, 2011 5:09 pm

    I remember this time last year, I was on the way to an Open meeting, I was so stressed out I started crying hysterically, I couldn’t take it anymore (I mentioned this on Juicescam’s site) Hubby thought I was laughing at first – MEN! Anyway, I told him to turn the van around and that I couldn’t take it anymore. I never went since. A few days later I canceled both Monavie and TEAM website subscriptions. It was like a huge relief came over me then. I immediately went to the loo and threw up. I just wanted to throw everything in my body up, I don’t know why my body reacted this way. This was before I became pregnant.

    Then in April, I lost my baby who was only six weeks old (in my womb) At that time I was so stressed out with the emotional turmoil/aftermath, and the debt. This was the time when I had 2 creditor companies telling me that I might want to look into filing for bankruptcy, because their services didn’t allow for someone in my case with such a high debt and low income combined.

    I managed to avoid going down the bankruptcy route. I re-arranged my finances and told myself I was going to beat this motherf**ker no matter how much it pinched. I truly do thank G-d for wisdom because I looked at my finances and it’s showing that I’ve made progress. We should be out of debt in seven years.

    I’m really writing this in hope Ryan would see this.

    BTW I worked up the courage to throw out that last box of TEAM materials, Will. Took it to the garbage rood (we live in a high-rise apartment building) and just set it down. I had a long talk with the minister at Hubby’s church (I attend with him most times) and she was telling me to just get rid of that box so it won’t be on my mind. Your encouragement to get rid of it was the final boost. Thanks, mate.

    Okay, enough rambling 🙂

  392. February 27, 2011 5:26 pm

    No legitmate business or company would forbid its members who they can or can’t associate with. This is a cultic practise. A legitimate business wouldn’t even care what its members did in their personal lives – birthday parties are so insignificent to a company headquarters.

  393. humiliated permalink
    February 27, 2011 5:29 pm

    Will, are you kidding? $7000??? I truly hope that anyone looking into joining TEAM reads your comment as it demonstrates how absolutely worthless the tools are.

    Izzy…you GO girl! Throw all of it away!! I am very sorry about your miscarriage though, and you are right, the stress you are under probably contributed to your loss. I couldn’t imagine going through that along with everything else that was going on in your life.

    Izzy, I know that you are Canadian like myself & if you go to CBC Marketplace you will find a video clip about “Business in Motion”, a pyramid scheme that the RCMP recently busted. They were disguising their scheme by selling “vacation packages” which were incredibly overpriced. It is interesting and eerily similar to TEAM /MV. We can email MarketPlace and let them know what is going on with Monavie & TEAM , maybe they will consider doing a story on it if we refer them to this, and the JuiceScam sites. They are saying that Canada is now the new breeding ground for scams such as these.

    There are also links to the Pyramid Scam alert etc. that are an interesting read.

  394. February 27, 2011 5:31 pm

    I agree with Vogel, we don’t need any more of TEAM replicas and off-shoots.

  395. Speak Your Truth permalink
    February 27, 2011 5:40 pm

    OMGosh Will
    I am laughing and laughing and laughing on your comment, it caught me off guard!

  396. Speak Your Truth permalink
    February 27, 2011 5:49 pm


  397. February 27, 2011 5:52 pm

    @Will and Humiliated, yes, I just went to the floor where the garbage room and set the box in there. I don’t care what happens to it now, it’s no longer in my flat. (we live in a high-rise apartmet building)

    I’ll go to the cbc marketplace site, thanks for the heads up, Humiliated ❤

  398. team deception permalink
    February 27, 2011 6:00 pm

    If any of you do not know what is being referenced here follow this link to see which one has the “dark(er) skin”. Just sayin.

  399. February 27, 2011 6:02 pm

    Argh, I can’t find the video called “Business in Motion” do you have a direct link, please? Thanks! 🙂

  400. Speak Your Truth permalink
    February 27, 2011 6:10 pm

    Oh so sorry, we are here with you and we do care that this happened.
    I feel it, the urge to capitalize every word again!
    I am glad you are getting this out, and definitely getting rid of that last box, before the subliminal crap jumps out of the box!LOL
    Good for you! Or you could burn it, that is what I did with all the paper garbage, it really is a healing moment!

  401. I Quit ( and glad I did) permalink
    February 27, 2011 6:10 pm

    Humiliated- I’ll throw my two cents worth in as well. The isolation starts right away but it happens so slowly that you really don’t notice it. It is hidden behind ideas and phraseology like “You are with whom you associate.” “I don’t need to watch the news or read the paper cuz when it gets bad enough someone will tell me!” CNN stands for “constant negative news”. ” You need to listen to at least two cd’s a day if you want to become a leader.” (SYSTEM cd’s) “If you need to listen to music listen to the Team music cd’s.” (these were cd’s with covers of various artists interspersed with soundbytes from Team cd’s) “You should be counseling with your movin on upline at least once a month so you will be on track to hit your goal.” “In order to assure there is adequate activity in your group you need to have contacting or phone calling sessions” “Have PV (product volume) parties for the people who had the high volume the month before.” “If your brother-in-law is negative then don’t get around him. You don’t need to hear all that negative. They don’t understand.”
    As one gradually buys into this behaviour it becomes “normal and routine”. Your “inputs” are controlled, your association is controlled and your “free” time is controlled as well. This is explained away as necessary for you to achieve your goals and dreams. You can’t accomplish these things unless you are being influenced by winners all the time.
    As far as what to be afraid of for your newbies is easy. Common sense. MLMs don’t have a very good rep right? We had to try to keep the newbie focused on their dream instead of on their lack of ability to pay for all the insanity. All under the disguise of “the dream”. “don’t ask your family what they think about this how would they know anything? How long have they been involved? ” Heres another great quote that was used, “Everybody wants to see you get by just not by them.” That was one used to explain why someone would try to talk you out of this. Or this one that the big dogs loved to spew “People of integrity expect to be believed. But when they’re not they let time prove them right.”
    As I’m writing this I must admit that it makes me cringe. So much manipulation! It’s amazing what you can convince yourself of when it gets spun the right way and thats all you hear… The process is slow and steady and as I’ve said its all hidden in the chase of the dream. In other words, we were effectively bamboozled with bullshit. Combine all this with a monthly seminar that had “recognition” of achievement (which started with small ones and went right on up to bigger and bigger “pins”. When you keep seeing one person here and there hitting something you then believe that “If they can do it so can I”. Now ask the rest of the bloggers how many of them ever went backwards in the biz and had to rebuild just to get back to where they’d already been. Then ask how many times!
    You can do it! You can do it! You can do it! Don’t be a wimp. Don’t be a couch jockey. Remember when youy’re driving home at 3 AM and you see the “blue hue” in the windows that you’re doing what 95% of the population won’t do.” Yeah, no shit. I wonder why.
    Hope that helps.

  402. I Quit ( and glad I did) permalink
    February 27, 2011 6:18 pm

    Hey when are they gettin the Team Island? They must be almost ready to pull the trigger on that right? Hee hee, ha ha, hoo hoo RRREEETTCCHHH. HAWK, SPIT.

  403. Will permalink
    February 27, 2011 6:24 pm

    LOL – The TEAM Island was in my DREAM CIRCLE. I am such a DOUCHE for believing….wait, I WAS such a DOUCHE. SO glad I took the RED PILL and became unplugged from the MATRIX!!

  404. Speak Your Truth permalink
    February 27, 2011 6:25 pm

    OOPS this could be taken wrong, didn’t realize it until after I posted it, I got the sentence in the wrong place, this is how it was suppose to be:
    That is nothing compared to what you would get from one of the Policy Counsel, but I am sure you would be up for it, but them cowards use only their pawns! LOL
    Which you do with an some amazing accuracy!
    Thanks a bunch!

    I wonder if Ryan is being paid or just getting his ego stroked (paid),when he reports back in, for sure the latter, that is exactly how Orrin works.

    Oh boy, that did not read right!

  405. February 27, 2011 6:42 pm

    Actually I found a video called Easy Money

    I’ll look at the news article after watching the video.

  406. I Quit ( and glad I did) permalink
    February 27, 2011 6:44 pm

    Things are definitely lookin up!!!!!!!!!!!

  407. humiliated permalink
    February 27, 2011 6:48 pm

    It does help, iquit. Thanks!

  408. Vogel permalink
    February 27, 2011 6:50 pm

    Great replies everyone…all made good points.

    I think this thing is going to unravel faster than an old moth-eaten sweater, and when it does, I’m going to pop some popcorn, crack open a frosty beverage, and sit back in a big ol’ comfortable chair to enjoy the entertaining show as the pins start turning on each other. It’ll be like a watching a snake devouring it’s own tail.

  409. webelieved permalink
    February 27, 2011 6:53 pm

    The principles point out why it seems Randy and Mark and the gang left Orrin and Team.
    Found it kinda interesting as I am sure all my ex Team mates would. A lot different reason than why I heard they left. It is funny Team kept people from Billy’s team, but Team wants no one to know about the other training companies!!!I find this another deceptive practice as well.
    If Monavie is the business…. why doesn’t monavie alone, train distributors (the right way) and get rid of the systems ?? drop their prices ?? to compete better…. and become a direct sales company selling to customers? Just a question I wonder about. I would think I would want to sell more juice to the masses if I owned a business, and it would give more success to distributors, which in turn would get more customers. I just do not get that….. Did people forget about Sam Walton…. ????? I wish I had enough money to buy a grocery warehouse and sell them cheaper than walmart and deliver to your door and the word would spread like wild fire!!!! No tools would be needed. …. just worthy product with a better price….. I just do not get it….. cannot wait to hear the comments.

  410. Will permalink
    February 27, 2011 6:59 pm

    “ego stroked”

    SO TRUE. Everybody becomes ‘Star Struck’ when they get around these whackos and DO whatever they tell them to do.

  411. February 27, 2011 7:02 pm

    Okay, I was actally almost finished the video when I read your response, and after watching the video and reading the article, I’m certainly glad that this Kippax character did finally get busted.

    Here is my concern, though…TEAM is much more slick than BIM – BIM doesn’t seem to be as organised as TEAM is, and TEAM actually retails copyrighted products on its websites, and work with companies like Monavie. The major big thing is, with tangeble products you actually hold in your hands they’re less likely to get busted. I’m afraid only a class-action suit will work at this point, if anything at all. I hate to put a damper on everyone, and I don’t mean to, but we’re really up against something only G-d Himself can knock down. We need more people to stand up and write to these shows like Marketplace, and to sites like Rick Ross.

    There’s an old Jewish saying, that says “Despise not small beginnings”. I would like to hold on to that, and I really do believe in it. EVERYTHING starts off small. But things DO grow.

    I’m certainly going to pray about everything, I do have faith in G-d. I am going to work on putting up a blog post this week as well telling my story (on my site, then I’ll ask Amthrax about how to share it.) He can decide what’s the next route anyway.

    But keep in mind that TEAM is ILLEGAL in the UK in dealings with Amway, that is a start, right?

  412. February 27, 2011 7:05 pm

    I remember them guys talking about that once…I was at a Major in New Brunswick, I think. Something about the woodward/brady duo purchasing an island for fifty million and selling lots to TEAM big guys for a million each? I doubt it’ll ever happen, lol.

  413. Will permalink
    February 27, 2011 7:06 pm

    Thanks for the laugh! that photo was great and YES I can’t wait for it to unravel.

  414. humiliated permalink
    February 27, 2011 7:07 pm

    I get all of your points Izzy and they are valid. TEAM and MV are going to be a little more difficult to nail down.

    Vogel, wasn’t Monavie found to be illegal in Germany?

  415. February 27, 2011 7:10 pm

    Aren’t they already turning in on each other? I mean each hotshot who does leave gets badmouthed and the like…it would be nice if the Orrin Woodward and Chris Brady romance disintegrates 😉

  416. Vogel permalink
    February 27, 2011 7:17 pm

    And when it does all come crashing down, the pins will be talking about how they just knew it was coming and how they all had grave concerns about the way in which the business was being operated but no one would listen…ROFL! The fingerpointing will be hysterical to watch. Then these demented pied pipers will start trying to lead people into the next scam — “get in on the ground floor…can’t miss opportunity…gonna be bigger than Microsoft!!!”


  417. Speak Your Truth permalink
    February 27, 2011 7:17 pm

    A major point that I forgot to share in the registration and ranking people.

    When in Quixtar their was already an established (line of sponsorship).
    WE PROMISHED people for years to “hold their spot” meaning that you would get in and even if they didn’t build it those who were put in after them,would be apart of their team and would get paid for that volume and paid more if they ever decided to build it.

    You could call this the integrity of the line of sponsorship.

    So by our promises that we were going to keep no matter what when we left that business and transfered those people into MV, this is where Orrin and George saw $$$ for themselves and dictated where and how they were put in. Totally ignoring the orignial promises and the integrity of all these people groups.

    Example, I will call this couple J&S originally sponsored R &R and had a downline of very close to 7000 people; but when their upline registered them in MV they lost all 7000 people because they were put in a totally different binary leg closer to the bottom no less!
    So in other words they lost their ENTIRE TEAM of 7000,by these Greedy, Corrupted, Thieves!!!!!!!!!!

    This example is True example that happened to someone on our team and it is Not isolated by any means!

    What will even blow your mind more is there are a WHOLE lot of leaders that know of many, many of these cases because they were the ones following the marching orders, and they TRY AND JUSTIFY IT, by “Oh it was really chaotic at that time” “People were under a lot of pressure,” NO SH**T because O & G needed it and were the ones pressuring to get thousands in a week!!! So Guzzardo’s could go Hawaiian Blue $$$$, and Orrin could go Presidential Black $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$!
    So how would you like to loose 7000 people on your team for oh say maybe 20 people, sound fair enough!
    Postal anyone?!!!!!

    So those that believe their LIES of they “aren’t in it for the $$$” they are only in it for the cause because “they don’t need the money”…. Those people believing this, can’t have a pulse nor are they breathing!!!!!

  418. team deception permalink
    February 27, 2011 7:19 pm

    Izzy, it called a “bromance”. I am not sure which one is more dangerous but it would be nice to see them eating each others tails.

  419. Speak Your Truth permalink
    February 27, 2011 7:21 pm

    This is the best entertainment I’ve had in awhile!!!!!!!!
    Thanks You All!

  420. Will permalink
    February 27, 2011 7:23 pm

    webelieved – Funny you bring that up about the training tools. Amway (even though I don’t like their business model) has cleaned up their act way more than monaVie. It is comical that Orrin and Chris would leave Amway for MonaVie and all the reports people talking about the ‘Head Hunters Fees’ and cash they received up front obviously explains why they chose MonaVie. They were not looking out for the best interest of their Team and IBOs, rather they were looking out for their bottom line and where they could make the most money. This is why they will FAIL in the end.

    Amway has been supposedly cleaning up the tool companies and changing things to make sure they are more legit in the MLM world. MonaVie on the other hand is way worse than amway and clearly a pyramid. The accusations that Team brought up against Amway in their lawsuit against them in California could easily be applies to MonaVie!!! Cracks me up that people do not see this. DO YOUR RESEARCH people before you FOLLOW blindly!!!

  421. team deception permalink
    February 27, 2011 7:24 pm

    Izzy, it called a “bromance”. I am not sure which one is more dangerous but it would be nice to see them eating each others tails.

  422. Will permalink
    February 27, 2011 7:24 pm

    haha, I am sure they already do!!!

  423. Will permalink
    February 27, 2011 7:31 pm


    I am getting outraged learning about all of the deception and immoral behavior going on here all in the name of culture, changing lives, leading people to Christ and making a difference.

    They are making a difference….a NEGATIVE difference in thousands of peoples lives and it needs to stop!!!

  424. Speak Your Truth permalink
    February 27, 2011 7:31 pm

    Team Island, OH yes, the research done on this and free videos that our upline did, even showed them at a seminar, do you all remember?
    Why weren’t they out STP, them nose pickers!
    Goin to A Million People, yep a Million suing ya!

  425. webelieved permalink
    February 27, 2011 7:32 pm

    Amen! TEAM IS THE OPPORTUNITY…..EXCEPT WHEN THEY HAVE TO PAY YOU FOR THE WORK YOU DID!!!! then they change the story…..after years!!! If you don’t think so why do they have their own recognition? Turbo 25, turbo 100, Round Table, POLICY COUNCIL that everyone chases after, just buy your volume right? at whatever product company we were at??!!!. IT IS ALL ON NUMBERS OF TICKETS AND PEOPLE ON SYSTEM. When you go to your jackwagon upline about the passive residual income you earned and were promised, that they took, they say passive income wasn’t from the Team….!!! liar liar pants on fire!!!!…… they should just say…… ” thank you WEED for building our numbers and numbers for years and practically killing yourself to do it, now we will ask you to do unethical if not criminal things, Oh you refuse? Oh now we will get your team to threaten you, You still refuse? Oh now we will strip you of your credibility in ways only we can, oh now we will slander you and take your team that is buying tens of thousands of dollars a month from us in Tools…….. and say you don’t own your cusomers, see ya! Former false friend who I didnt give two shits about, don’t let the door hit you in the broke ass on the way out!!” I love sarcasm it is funny. I am cracking my own self up 🙂

  426. Speak Your Truth permalink
    February 27, 2011 7:35 pm

    They are kissing each others tails for sure!

  427. Speak Your Truth permalink
    February 27, 2011 7:45 pm

    Orrin was privy to this information and if the truth was know it would be his #1 reason for leaving because he knew they would be taking out the outside tool companies!
    That humble man that isn’t in it for the money!

  428. Will permalink
    February 27, 2011 7:48 pm

    webelieved – what are some of the stories you heard they were saying about why you quit the business?

    Do you also recall any lies they made up about other leaders like Haugen, Florence, Dickie, Granger, Morgans, Goetschel, Crawford, T. Cullen, D. Abraham etc.?

    Who else am I missing here? There have been a ton of leaders that quit over the past few years other than the ones I mentioned above?

  429. webelieved permalink
    February 27, 2011 7:55 pm

    OH my friggin Gosh dang holy crap that is ridiculous!!! The poor kids. They had to be wondering if the parents were nutty…. Oh that is blatant abuse!!!!!!! caN YOU SAY BRAINWASHED PEOPLE!!! “UMMMM Johnny you cannot go to the party because i go to work kinda with that guy over there and we compete and I may hurt his business by eating cake and icecream!!!!” 😦

  430. Speak Your Truth permalink
    February 27, 2011 8:02 pm

    Omgosh, this is hiliarious, You guys are making me bust a gut, that’s it,
    I’m calling the makers of Believe, they have to make a Believe 2!
    They need look no futher than this site right here, maybe we could ALL GET RICH, I”ll START CONTACTING RIGHT NOW!!!
    HA and AMTHRAX TOO, he will become famous!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  431. Will permalink
    February 27, 2011 8:12 pm

    Revisiting this comment as I think it is important to point out…

    We all remember Orrin getting on stage talking about how he makes loads of money from Team and then he can invest that money in other businesses. He TOUTS himself as being a business GURU (go figure) and that you should take his advice on investments, finances and other business ventures.

    I do not think this guy is that SMART or knows what to do with his money. I think he is a HORRIBLE business man.

    I am would like ONE PERSON to PROVE me wrong by showing me an outside business that ORRIN has been successful at!!??? Can anyone show me???

  432. Will permalink
    February 27, 2011 8:27 pm

    WOW, 436 total comments and today alone I think there were around 100 or so. This is heating up and the FACTS are starting to come out on Orrin Woodwards SCAM. I cannot wait for this corruption to end.

    It has been a pleasure sharing with you all, hearing your stories (as emotional and painful as they are), I know we will all benefit from moving forward in a POSITIVE direction now and the healing process is now underway! Thanks for being there for me and I want you to know that I am praying for everyone on this blog and even those who do not know what is happening to them. I am praying that God will open their eyes, free their minds and show them the light!!!

  433. webelieved permalink
    February 27, 2011 9:02 pm

    hhhaaaaahhhhaahaahhhhaaahaaah vogel you are so damn funny!!!! nice picture!

  434. webelieved permalink
    February 27, 2011 9:07 pm

    VOGEL the last sentence sounded like my upline…lol You sure you weren’t a teambot in a prior life? oh you got it same ol same ol!!! Blame someone else and play the victim ? as Orrin likes to say!!

  435. Vogel permalink
    February 27, 2011 10:04 pm

    Hear hear! Well said Will.

  436. webelieved permalink
    February 27, 2011 10:25 pm

    Let’s see what lies have I heard??? well I know of a diamond that said we ” left because we wanted to get paid for work we didn’t do”… which is very comical SINCE SAID DIAMOND GOT A SPECIAL DEAL AND INHERITED SOMEONE ELSES LARGE PROFIT SHARING LEG, THAT ARE NOT IN THEIR BUSINESS, and of course didnt disclose this little fact, imagine the hypocrisy!! Oh yeah “we moved on to other things” ……..Oh yeah how smart they are……..More slanderous meetings… they are such idiots it isnt even funny!!!!!! ” Billy left because he was busy in his other car dealership businesses” HAHAHA LOL….Imagine…. the guy owns restraunt chains!!!Maybe he’s waiting tables too and doing dishes??? LOL I am laughing now because I know this is not true and it sounds so dumb!!! That was said by same diamond above! Oh let me see… John Morgan’s was said to have been ” stealing his whole downline into a coupon cutting business!!!!!!!” Imagine John Morgan stealing or selling coupons!!! OMG i cannot stop laughing!!!!!!! oh who else…. oh Randy Haugen now we heard “he was so greedy and wanted to get paid more profit sharing so he left” Omg i am busting up! Lets see Pastor “he just hasn’t been around, he must be busy” according to one teambot…… Oh Bobby” he just wanted to work on his charities the climbing thing” Oh boy……. I believe probably all lies since pastors whole family left Team including his son in law the attorney from what I hear!!! These parrots need to get a clue, they are lying when they repeat this crap and they lose their credibility when people find out! DUH……. I know the minions around here repeat a lot of lies…it is most discusting how we have been slandered in our own town……. so sad for them, they cannot see how stupid and dumb they sound. ….you cannot tell lies forever….. and not have it come out naturally…. haven’t heard any stories of the others… what have you heard??? Who else has left?? There sure are a lot of secrets…

  437. webelieved permalink
    February 27, 2011 11:00 pm

    Will- I think I read that in a lawsuit?… That Amway was not going to accredit or similar term the Team System… So therefore it could not be used in building a mv business any longer. I know Forbes said they were pulling in millions at the time and I am sure they didn’t want to lose it.. My teambot self didn’t want to lose it after all the hard work and hey it was changing lives…..making a difference (Puke). Also we sure didn’t want to say the A word as it had a bad reputation. Hell we were told not to say the Q word even at opens. remeber that one? I know for me I was all for leaving……. cuz….. we were getting the walmart of the internet…. big name products etc etc… the bigger the community the cheaper the products… cut out the middle man what b.s. It took a long time, a lot of reading of lawsuits, articles etc. and unplugging from the system before i could see the hypocrisy… I still had to see Orrin’s true colors for myself! Gosh I was so indoctrinated and I will tell you I did not want to believe there was something wrong, it was wayyyyy tooooooo painful.. and what are you gonna do then? hurt all the people you brought in, that you promised to help? Don’t you keep your word? Also then you have to admit to yourself that you hurt others and promoted the lie, and then comes the shame…. oh and all those people you told you made it, what are you going to say to them? And what are you going to tell your kids??? Remember we are taught that the outside world is the enemy, and you can no longer stand the hypocrisy on the inside….. so what do you do? It was very hard to get away. I actually thank God in a way that a lot of bad things happened, because that is what set me free…… I wasn’t gonna let go of my DREAM easily…. I WILL SAY IT IS WORTH IT, ALL THE PAIN, IT IS WORTH IT TO BE FREE AGAIN, to have real friends and feelings and time to enjoy life, cuz we only get one !!!!

  438. webelieved permalink
    February 27, 2011 11:57 pm

    Izzy, I wanted to let you know that i too have seen Rick Ross site.. He has a good article which explains how SCRIPTURE IS USED TO MANIPULATE PEOPLE!! I wish I would have seen that years ago!!! I wish I would’ve known this cult stuff it may have helped me recognize warning signs in a group I was once a part of.

  439. webelieved permalink
    February 27, 2011 11:58 pm

    delete ryans comment please

  440. webelieved permalink
    February 27, 2011 11:59 pm

    Please delete Ryan

  441. webelieved permalink
    February 28, 2011 12:18 am

    Izzy, i read your story and i am truly sorry. I cannot imagine what you have gone through. I look forward to talking with you someday. Just know you are on the road to healing. I will pray for you and all the others. I know the Lord has made this happen. Some of his miracles I have mentioned and some I have not. He is healing us. I hope that we can help in some small way. I cannot wait to read your blog and hear your story. A huge weight has been lifted, my son was so happy to see me belly laugh tonight, he hasn’t seen a whole lot except sadness and anger for years. It was the only thing I could feel as much as i tried to be happy for his sake. I can tell you the only thing to do is speak it. I wish I would have done it years ago. It has taken huge weight off my heart, more than i had ever expected…. I can even feel it physically….I thank you for sharing and for validating my experiences. No one can understand unless they have been there. And it is hard to heal alone. I am fortunate to have some exTeam friends that I could vent to. But, because they didn’t work it hard, they didn’t get the depth of the pain. That was frustrating some times. I also know people that are stuffing it and I see it is not healthy for them. I am going to get them to read this blog.

  442. webelieved permalink
    February 28, 2011 12:25 am

    Vogel, I went on the ptsd site and have a lot of yeses, almost all. It explains a lot. I do not like game players and word twisters like Ryan. I already lived under that too long. You say what i want to say in an eloquent and funny way…. thanks for taking care of that joker.

  443. webelieved permalink
    February 28, 2011 1:34 am

    I had to repost over here for new people reading Ryan’s crap.

    P.s. Ryan thanks for the best laugh I have had in 8 years!!!! Seriously i couldn’t even stand up and I almost had to take my inhaler….. Oh i will have a sore throat tommarrow For sure!!! I do have to say you are a good piano player….!!! (if that is you playing?)
    You my friend are at the 20 something, know it all stage. When you really don’t know much about life….You clearly haven’t been involved with team as long as I, as you would’ve been wearing diapers when I started…. so you really should keep your opinions to yourself until you have some facts!!! I know you don’t believe me but trust me after you age about 10 years, you will look back and think what a jerk you were to hurting people…. but do not worry, I already forgive your ignorance. Your comment on success??? Oh success to me is not how many books i have wrote or how many people post on my one sided blog. Success is going before God and knowing while I wasn’t perfect, when I knew I was doing wrong I repented….. success is doing the right thing even when it is unpopular and hard, like telling the truth. Success is living a free life even if it means losing everything. Success is helping the poor and needy…. and taking care of my family and spending time with them… Success is not material things and the idolatry that Team teaches. Sorry you are too young to know these things as they only come through experience…. My friend you are indoctrinated or very naive if you really think I am posting to so call slander or because I am jealous of someone’s I used to think like you!!! Scary… so Get a clue!!
    Thanks again for the great laugh!!! I really needed it!

    P.s. Everyone check out Ryan? on youtube if you need a good laugh!!!

    I find it funny Ryan is not following the system oopps!! Although using you tube is very creative, that is not duplicatable, Ryan! Not everyone can play the piano…. I thought you were a better teambot student than that!!! LOL

  444. Will permalink
    February 28, 2011 8:03 am

    webelieved – This video is hysterical! There are so many professionals that signed up in MonaVie Team (that were very successful in their private lives and had credibility before joining this business) and THEY COULD NOT EVEN MAKE IT WORK. I am talking lawyers, doctors, business owners and yes, even consultants. 😉 I am sure you know who all these people are, but they have either quit or their businesses are hanging on by a thread due to lack of results.

    Ryan – If these professionals from many walks of life CANT MAKE THIS BUSINESS WORK…then I am sorry my friend, but YOU with your knappy hair will NEVER make this work. Keep on dreaming my friend. Better yet, you would be better off to GET RID OF THE TEAM DREAM and start Dreaming about something that was realistic and that you could actually attain in your life.

  445. Speak Your Truth permalink
    February 28, 2011 8:09 am

    Great questions-webelieved.
    Hmmm……so many questions, so many secrets..

    He that has eyes to see and ears to hear may convince himself that no mortal can keep a secret. If his lips are silent, he chatters with his fingertips; betrayal oozes out of him at every pore.-Sigmund Freud

    Everything secret degenerates, even the administration of justice; nothing is safe that does not show how it can bear discussion and publicity-Lord John Emerich Edward Dalberg

  446. Speak Your Truth permalink
    February 28, 2011 8:55 am

    Way to go Webelieved & Will
    What the hell was that?
    Now that I have picked myself back up off the floor, get some lessons already!

  447. Speak Your Truth permalink
    February 28, 2011 9:35 am

    Ah Yes, the Crosslining!
    I am with Will on this one!
    This is the most obvious way for them to keep the curtain closed! This is what causes the paranoia in the Policy Counsel.
    But too bad the wizards are being revealed, the curtain is being ripped down. I could go on forever but there is one Policy Counsel that is really anal about this, but yet he spouted from stage “How he wishes he could tell you all he knows about Don F. & Guzzardo’s group”Who are all cross-line to him!
    ~And these things just blow right over most people because they are sitting in a seminar, getting intoxicated with the indoctrination!
    The double standards are sickening and they should all be throw in the cage of the WFC fighters so these guys have something to practice on!
    Izzy-yes this is a cardinal rule that is punishable by what-ever-it takes rule book, and is reverenced in all teams!
    It was awhile after they stole our profit-sharing, I had spoken to a Big Leader that they too had their teams and personals taken in their group. This person told me my upline had called to invite to lunch, (which never happened) then later realized my upline was trying to see if I had talked to this person!
    Paranoia at its finest!
    The Birthday Party is the most twisted story I’ve heard yet.

  448. Speak Your Truth permalink
    February 28, 2011 10:18 am

    Yes and just think all those that haven’t spoken on their individual abuses, hopefully they can read here and not feel alone and afraid to tell the truth. I don’t know if people really understand the depth of destruction this has caused people like us for years and know for me this is just the beginning.
    It is freeing to have a voice somewhere it is safe and people have your backside because for too long no-one could point out these abuses, as hard as we tried. We stood up for the people on our teams that were downright being abused, they refused to hold people accountable and take responsibility, and to think Orrin called my spouse a coward! I can’t even call Orrin a man, my spouse showed more courage than he could even conjure up in his wildest dreams!
    He is the biggest coward I have ever met, not to mention all the other lack of character traits that I could say with confidence, judging by our experience.
    Eventually, you just have to leave rather than try and be their consciences, because you know it will only be throw at you with, “Focus on what you can control” then for us when we would bring up injustice or wrong doings they would go on stage and edify the person (our upline) with white-hot edification just to “show you”, you can’t bring those things up about your upline, you are just suppose to submit! It is truly disgusting, and I agree with you, I wonder if they are taking notes and touting from stage on how many lives they have destroyed, instead of reading the cards and accolades from those (with tears) on how “They” changed people’s lives for the better.” They cannot and will not deny my experience and the abuses I know that happened!
    You can just hear their side of the story, can’t you?
    Sooner or later justice will be served, and I bet their jacked, and not on the juice but about all their dirty little secrets and lies.

  449. Speak Your Truth permalink
    February 28, 2011 11:17 am

    Thanks for sharing; the truth you speak is a great reminder to how we need to live our lives.
    I will forgive and help those ( This is my nature and the way I believe God himself made me, I love and have tremendous compassion for people) too when they remove themselves from the lie they are blindly living (at least some), others know full well and clearly know what they are doing.
    Not that I can’t forgive them but I believe when I completely do, it will be more for me, and it will be by God’s grace.
    I have prayed many times for this but it cannot come to completion for me by suppressing more of what caused the pain in the first place.
    I also believe the first step in forgiveness has to be “self-forgiveness” and most of us here are just scratching that surface.
    Thank you and I hope I haven’t been offensive to you.

  450. Jim permalink
    February 28, 2011 11:48 am

    Vogel, with all due respect to your accomplishments in regards to the scam that is Mona vie, I have a dissenting opinion in regards to the spirit of some of this post.

    I don’t know that we want to salute those that toil away for modest income or keep their materialism in check. I don’t see the virtue in such self sacrifice. As presented it reeks of martyrdom. To resign oneself to less then the care to acheive is a sin in my opinion. A waste of potential that hurts the martyr as well as the society that would benefit from their increased production.

    To me, the repulsion comes not from the ideology of positive mental attitude, dedication, and perseverance which I have found in my experience to be common drivers in the attainment of success, but the application of such inside of a scam where massive failures are predetermined. I don’t think we want to throw the baby out with the bathwater. Just because these principles are being preached inside a scam does not make the principles themselves scams.

    It saddens me to think of all those, who after being burnt by MLM, will discount self improvement as just part of the scam. Self improvement is a noble pursuit, and there are many paths. As you stated, you chose self improvement through education. While I personally very much of your mindset regarding money, I have no problem with those that are motivated by materialism. I have no more right to damn this motivation as shallow as anybody else would to damn me for my motivations.

  451. February 28, 2011 12:28 pm

    @Jim – Good comment.

    On this site, I’ve tried — perhaps with varying degrees of success — to make this distinction. Much of the self-improvement principles taught from stage are not exclusive to TEAM, R3Global, WWDB. Rather, they are universal principles which are good to learn and strive for. Where I have a problem is when the Systems and Leaders state that one can only find success by following their System exclusive of anything else.

  452. Vogel permalink
    February 28, 2011 1:22 pm

    Really Jim? If you don’t want to salute or show respect to the middle-class worker, which is who we’re talking about here, then what do you suggest as an alternative, simply ignoring them? Crapping on them like the MLMers do constantly? I’m assuming that you know enough about these MLMs to realize that they constantly deride the notion of a 9 to 5 job. They even go so far as to say that MLM is superior to the average non-MLM job (absurd given that non-MLMs, unlike MLMs, are bound by minimum wage laws).

    MLMs prey upon greed; they feed it endlessly, and they do it with scorn and derision for everyone that is outside the CULT, including the hard working folk that make up the bulk of America’s work force.

    It’s sad that you “don’t see the virtue in this kind of self sacrifice”, and it’s odd that you infer from what I wrote that I don’t support the notion of self improvement; I merely do not support MLM as a source for providing or teaching about self improvement. Quite the contrary in fact; MLM is more about self abasement.

    I see blue- and white-collar workers continually making great sacrifices to ensure that their children have a better future. They often toil so that their kids can go to university and achieve a better life. How could any compassionate person not salute and respect that?

    Positive attitude is great; and also greatly overrated. Having a marketable skill set is far more important. MLM preaches the attitude but provides none of the skills. What could be a more empty promise than that which MLM offers? You can smile and be positive until you’re blue in the face, but if you’re unqualified and uneducated, I’m sure not going to hire you and neither will most employers, unless the job consists of beaming and grinning like a fool without doing any actual work (and that’s a hard job to come by, outside of politics especially).

    Jim said: “To resign oneself to less then the care to acheive is a sin in my opinion. A waste of potential that hurts the martyr as well as the society that would benefit from their increased production.”

    You seem to be confusing materialism with goal-directed behavior. Almost everyone works with a goal in mind; but the goal doesn’t have to be merely the acquisition of material things. It’s a dangerous to pin the welfare of a society solely to the materialism of its citizens. It’s also fallacious to equate achievment with materialism. One can eschew the latter without the former.

    Jim said: “It saddens me to think of all those, who after being burnt by MLM, will discount self improvement as just part of the scam. Self improvement is a noble pursuit, and there are many paths.”

    How odd that you’re saddened by this apparent strawman. Why would burnt MLMers discount self-improvement? That makes no sense at all. Just assume that they’ll seek self improvement from legitimate sources — i.e., those apart from the upside-down world of MLM. If anything I would imagine that they would be more likely to undertake self-improvement, given that they no longer have to squander their time and resources on the empty promises of soul-sucking MLMs.

    Jim said: “I have no problem with those that are motivated by materialism. I have no more right to damn this motivation as shallow as anybody else would to damn me for my motivations.”

    You’re ignoring the fundamental hypocrisy underlying the materialism promoted by MLMs; namely, that they use Jesus as part of their indoctrination strategy, and yet Jesus represents the antithesis of materialism. The contradiction is unmistakably obvious.

  453. Jim permalink
    February 28, 2011 4:47 pm

    @Amthrax, thanks! That was the point of the post. Most of what is being taught in all these motivational MLMs are universal principles that have been around for many decades, and in my opinion they aren’t even being taught well. It is too bad that the way the average person finds out about them is through these confidence men. (that’s an interesting term isn’t it? Great title for a movie about MLM guru’s)

  454. UnKnown permalink
    February 28, 2011 7:16 pm


    Whats the storey with the following Team Leaders quitting???

    Granger- Whats his first name?
    John & Melanie Morgan?
    T. Cullen – Is this Tom Cullen?
    D. Abraham – Is this Matt Abraham’s brother?

  455. Speak Your Truth permalink
    February 28, 2011 7:52 pm

    I am going to start blogging tomorrow.
    Hopefully we can take the next step, I have some cult info, I want to share. Hope you visit, it is still a work in progress, if you only knew how ignorant I am on this computer stuff you would understand, I had to have help, well all of it done for me!
    I appreciate your prayers and kind words and ditto to them all! It sounds like your leaving and I hear you loud and clear!
    What Amthrax, Vogel, Humiliated, Izzy, Aurora, Juicescam,(hope I didn’t forge ANYONE) and all our friends in “recovery”,LOL,
    All that they have done for us is a miracle, they accepted us with open arms,gave us a safe place to speak out, gave us valuable information, unselfishly served, and even had our backs when the wolves showed up to try and silence the truth!
    We will be eternally grateful for this and hopefully they will somehow receive the reward by knowing that they played a huge part in some of the first steps to our healing! They truly have been amazing! I know they will keep up the good fight and we will continue to come on here and visit.
    We will Pay-It-Forward!
    I too will continue to pray for them and all those on here and the for the rest that will come!
    You all have my an angels to me!
    Thank You All!

  456. Speak Your Truth permalink
    February 28, 2011 7:59 pm

    Will I have no idea what happened but don’t go to that blog, LOL!
    I will post the right one I hope soon have to check with my technician,HOLY CRAP! I thought that was it, SEE I told you!

  457. Speak Your Truth permalink
    February 28, 2011 8:10 pm

    Jeff Granger – gone
    John & Melanie Morgan-gone
    Tom Cullen-gone
    D. Abraham-doubtful but not sure

  458. Will permalink
    February 28, 2011 8:12 pm

    Obviously, they all quit because they realized the business was a sham and weren’t making any money.

    There were also LIES and SLANDEROUS statements made about all of them after they quit. I hope that they decide to get on here and post (anonymously about their stories), because I am sure that they would have some juicy information on the inner circles of the leadership and the immoral, shady practices that take place.

    Jeff Granger was upline to Matt Abraham and supposedly there was a big riff between Jeff and Orrin as Jeff had his team taken from him and re-positioned after the merger with MonaVie. His team was basically re-alligned so that Orrin would stand to PROFIT the most from the new LOS, and Jeff LOST OUT on YEARS of business building efforts and relationship building that he invested building his team. Of course, all the rumors from Orrin and his cronies made Jeff out to be dis-gruntled, angry at the monavie change and mad because his outside legs at the time were not growing. However they spinned it, they tried making him look bad. I am sure that a ton of the other leaders on here like Speak Your Truth, Webelieved, iQuit and Fly on the Wall could all add to this from the lies they heard. I truly hope that Jeff and his family are ok and that they can heal after all the pain that Orrin caused him and his family and business. If Jeff ever posted on here it would definitely expose some dirty secrets on Orrin as I am sure there is alot more to the story outside of what I have heard and the basic rumors that went around team. Jeff was a Triple 100 on the Team, so he was one of the larger level kingpins at the time. So, for him to get up and leave just shows that the business was going backwards, and in his case it was shrinking faster since it looks like it was stolen from him.

    Dan Abraham is Matts brother and he quit the business a few years back and moved somewhere to open up a new practice as he is aDermatologist. At the time it was a quiet exit and not many people talked about it. However, rumors still started to go around when people asked where he went and of course he was slandered and called a traitor and a little girl who couldn’t build his business. This obviously struck me as alarming that they could speak this way about him, being that he was a big leader on stage, well liked, always edified and friends with Orrin and the other leaders, but as soon as he decided to take his family in a different direction, they threw him under the bus in a heart beat. I always wondered if Matt Abraham knew what they were saying about his brother, because Matt is still involved in the business to this day. Dan leaving again shows you that another big level leaders quit because the opportunity is not near as good as they make it out to be.

    Tom Cullen and John Morgan were Round Table Members as well (so was Dan Abraham). So to have 4 RT guys quit like Granger, Abraham, Cullen and Morgan, it just proves our point on this blog that the whole thing is slowly falling down.

    I do not know the entire stories with Morgans and Cullen on their personal decisions for leaving. But I did hear that they were both pretty upset due to immoral issues with the leadership of team and surprise surprise, Orrin and gang SLANDERED them as well to justify why they weren’t around anymore, because they wouldnt want people to question the business on whether or not the opportunity was as good as they make it out to be, right??!!??

    What other big leaders quit and can anyone else confirm the reasons why these leaders left? Plus, I am positive you have all heard similar slanderous statements about people when they defect…what have you heard?

  459. Speak Your Truth permalink
    February 28, 2011 8:32 pm

    Oh Boy Will
    You have opened Pandora’s Box now!
    I’m pretty sure I cannot post right now because every word would have to be CAPTIALIAZTION!
    You can add to the RT list the Peters, and anyone else?
    Yes but maybe will share that later!

  460. webelieved permalink
    February 28, 2011 8:42 pm

    I AM TICKED TO PUT IT MILDLY!!! We know this is happening but to see it once again is sick!! a little girl? they are soo perverted and discusting!!!So what slanderous lies were told about Cullen’s and Morgan’s???? …….I say if you know any leader that hasn’t been on this site, we call em up and have em post for healing and more truth!!!

  461. Will permalink
    February 28, 2011 8:46 pm

    I agree, strength in numbers. If everyone comes out now and at the same time the momentum will be on our side!

  462. Speak Your Truth permalink
    February 28, 2011 9:07 pm

    I agree with the divine intervention.
    I found this site from a site quixtarisacult, which I am sad to see is gone.
    I loved this guys writing style and points.

  463. Speak Your Truth permalink
    February 28, 2011 9:13 pm

    Yes, Will this is true but I don’t know if Amthrax could handle such a bunch of rebellious, stand up for the truth; survivors!
    I am not sure how he feels about all of us.

  464. Will permalink
    February 28, 2011 9:15 pm

    Oh yeah…Greg Rau too!

    Updated List – RT Members:

    Jeff Granger
    Raquel Peters
    Dan Abraham
    Greg Rau
    Tom Cullen
    John & Melanie Morgan

    PC Members:

    Randy & Val Haugen – PC
    Billy & Peggy – PC
    Mark Crawford – PC
    Lance Smith – PC
    Chuck Goetschel – PC

  465. Will permalink
    February 28, 2011 9:18 pm

    I know we are missing a dozen more couples (RT) that slowly dissolved over the years. Maybe there are alot more that tried leaving quietly for fear of the slandering that takes place, or maybe there are others still hanging on by a thread and wanting to quit, but just not knowing how to tell their teams that they want out?

  466. webelieved permalink
    February 28, 2011 9:19 pm

    Hey Will, remember leveraging/ team approach and sling, squeeze and side action??? Remeber that little trick?? Boy talk about building numbers!!! I just remembered that little manipulation game I was good at. That sure got people in that didn’t want to build a business. But we got orders form it…oh boy!!! And then we would pressure them to contact to get to the next person and wonder why they would eventually quit?!………… Oh i feel the guilt coming on!

  467. February 28, 2011 9:22 pm

    Can one of the Ex-TEAM commenters take a look at the TEAM Calendar and tell us which field leaders are on the up and up (or down and down)?

    Looking back on the past few years, there appears to be less meetings overall throughout the week. How many people are attending these weekly opens and weekend seminars?

  468. webelieved permalink
    February 28, 2011 9:27 pm

    Will I am sure there are more……. 🙂 🙂

    I had heard some things about Edwards but not sure? have you heard anything??

  469. webelieved permalink
    February 28, 2011 9:36 pm

    Will don’t forget the Dickies and office people ?

  470. Will permalink
    February 28, 2011 9:42 pm

    ha, there’s another DAGGER!

    Updated List – RT Members:

    Jeff Granger
    Raquel Peters
    Dan Abraham
    Greg Rau
    Tom Cullen
    John & Melanie Morgan
    Pat Edwards

    PC Members:

    Randy & Val Haugen – PC
    Billy & Peggy – PC
    Mark Crawford – PC
    Lance Smith – PC
    Chuck Goetschel – PC

    Team Office:
    CEO – Bob Dickie
    Chief Legal Counsel – Kevin Thompson
    Bob Cassidy (another executive at the office)

    Orrin’s Mentor/Pastor:
    Pastor Dickie (man, Orrin has got to know that he is a BUM when his own Pastor wants nothing to do with him and his business either.)

    I have heard about the Edward too.

    And of course there is all of us on this blog.

    I wonder how big this list is going to get? 😉

  471. webelieved permalink
    February 28, 2011 9:45 pm

    Speak, yep it seems like a BIG Pandora’s box…. wow!
    It is really sad, Grangers, all that time and effort and sacrifice and then you get screwed by your so called friends….I am totally discusted!! These people need there friggin heads examined….. this is way more than a mistake! It is systematic and deliberate what they did to people!!!!

  472. webelieved permalink
    February 28, 2011 9:48 pm

    What have you heard about Edwards, it seems he hasnt been on the speaking list.

  473. Speak Your Truth permalink
    February 28, 2011 9:53 pm

    Will you have a good list started.
    I know leaders that weren’t round table but turbo 50 & 100.
    But I am really am having a hard time with the last post still; that they would talk about our friends like that.
    I do want to mention something else that I believe is VERY important right now.
    The Team started as Team of Destiny with Amway, then Team with Quixtar (whatever his reason was can’t remember right now because it wasn’t the real truth)
    But the real reason is, Orrin says: “it’s not the negative lies that hurt you, it is the negative truth,” this is why they changed the name.
    So when the “Team of Destiny” was searched out it wouldn’t be attached to the “negative.”
    Heard he sued, Scott Larsen but we were in at that time and know nothing about that, just vaguely remember someone brought it up.
    It is no secret that Orrin doesn’t like critics.
    What would you call us since we weren’t critics and now calling us critics, just doesn’t seem to cut it? Hmm….
    So get ready I am sure after ALL the truth that has been shed here and Juicescam’s; the curtain’s ripped wide open.
    I would guess A NEW NAME CHANGE IS IN STORE.
    What do you think?
    How long do you think it will take, ha?
    How long do they really think they can run and hide?
    The only one’s who believe that they are hidden is themselves, EVERYBODY ELSE, knows the Truth!

  474. webelieved permalink
    February 28, 2011 9:53 pm

    what about profit sharers??? do you know any of those that left Team. I was kinda out of the whole deal when I was sick….

  475. Will permalink
    February 28, 2011 9:56 pm

    It’s funny…I look at this list of HUGE LEADERS that were in the business at one time and THEY ALL LEFT, and what did we hear about them afterwards? LIES and SlANDER. WHY? Again, to protect Orrin’s business and keep people BELIEVING that it was THEM (the people who quit) that were at fault and not the business.

    Really? So according to Orrin, we are to believe that ALL of these people are BAD? All these years, these leaders were LOSERS, TRAITORS, and had integrity issues and ORRIN (The Great Leader) did not recognize these character flaws with these people?


    Orrin praised every single one of these leaders at some point on stage before. These were people that he edified on stage and called friends.

    The ONE THING that all of these people have in COMMON is Orrin Woodward.

    This should easily tell people that the PROBLEM is not with these people, the PROBLEM lies with ORRIN and his TOOL SCAM of a business.

    i need a beer

  476. webelieved permalink
    February 28, 2011 9:58 pm

    Oh Speak SO TRUE, Wonder what they will call it now??? Well maybe Orrin himself will have to change his name?? This is friggin hilarious! Maybe he will change it to IAM WOODWART ???

  477. Will permalink
    February 28, 2011 10:01 pm

    Good point. My guess is something to do with their new 8 F’s and the L.I.F.E initiative. (Living Intentionally For Excellence)

    Maybe they will do something like:

    Life Team
    Team Life
    Life Leadership
    Life Training
    Life Training Team

    haha, and yes they WILL RUN and WONT be able to hide!

  478. Jim permalink
    February 28, 2011 10:02 pm

    My point was you shouldn’t resign yourself to “toiling” and just being glad to have a job. I would say there is nothing wrong with an honest days work for an honest days pay and a man can have pride in that. But who would aspire to toil away for modest wages? Is that something you would wish for your child? Or would you tell your child to be passionate about his endevours in life, regardless of monetary reward, to do his best and take pride in his accomplishments, to not settle, that through belief in himself and determination he can do amazing things. We are not lying to our children when we tell them such things and they don’t become lies just because one has attained a certain age or position. I would not encourage my child to toil away, keep his desires in check and be grateful to have a steady job, but to seek that which will give him happiness and satisfaction. If making money was his passion, that is fine by me. I can respect that passion for the game. Funny thing, when you have that passion in your life, often the money doesn’t matter and oddly enough thats when it seems to be easy. It’s not the money, it’s the passion and there is little satisfaction in toiling.

    So I would not salute my own child for resiging himself to toiling for modest income keeping his desires in check and being glad to just have a job, would it make sense I should another mans? I find virtue in the desire to live life to the full. I find virtue in the man that takes responsibility for his life and is unrepentant. Saluting it in such a way lends a sense of martyrdom. Martyrdom is a very bad thing and I see too much of it, even pride in it.

    I’m going way off topic with personal philosophy but it actually does tie back around in that as you read this, you mostly like thought I was trying to sound like an MLM motivational speaker. I’m sure their message is very similiar because it’s the same message that has impacted lives for decades. I was lucky enough to stumble across much of the self improvement and interpersonal relationship literature decades ago and it had a definite impact on my life. It upsets me to see something dear to me being perverted and used to bilk people. And yes, I feel sorry for those who were exposed to the idea that the mindset is everything, that will leave thinking they were stupid for believing in themselves.

  479. Will permalink
    February 28, 2011 10:03 pm

    webelieved – Orrin has a horrible name for search engine purposes, eh?

    The John Smiths of the world would blend in really easily. But ORRIN has just been screwed and good for him. Serves him right after all that he has done.

  480. Will permalink
    February 28, 2011 10:06 pm

    You referring to smaller level profit sharers that were not RT or PC? It would take a while to recall all the people that VANISHED over the years. But I say we put our heads together, because the larger we make that list the better. It shows people that ORRIN is the one common denominator in all of the SO CALLED RELATIONSHIPS THAT WENT BAD. That list should WAKE PEOPLE UP!!!

  481. Will permalink
    February 28, 2011 10:09 pm

    I agree. There is so much that people do not know or that they WILL NOT BELIEVE. I remember when I was building the business people would bash the leaders that quit and they would bash these blogs as 95% garbage. They really do turn a blind eye to it, so hopefully they will see that with the increase in stories and truth that we are speaking will be enough to get their attention. That is my prayer at least. Alot of people are getting hurt.

  482. Speak Your Truth permalink
    February 28, 2011 10:10 pm

    Holy smokes, Will- You are white hot tonight, way to go!
    Where do you, webelieved and I meet for that beer?

  483. Will permalink
    February 28, 2011 10:10 pm

    Chris Smith was RT right? He quit Team

    So was Mike Barrett (I think he is out too, can anyone else verify?)

  484. Will permalink
    February 28, 2011 10:12 pm

    I havent heard anything specific on the Edwards recently. I was under the impression that they had left a while back as well. Were they RT Members?

  485. Will permalink
    February 28, 2011 10:13 pm

    ha, I agree. Amthrax needs to help us set it up!

  486. Speak Your Truth permalink
    February 28, 2011 10:23 pm

    Are you asking which one’s are growning?
    This would be very difficult especially because we haven’t been with the team for going on 3 years.
    So most of the speaker they have now with some exceptions, I would have some insight on, most of the rest weren’t even there when we were, at least not at any noticable level, and a lot of them are from all the other leaders that left like Randy H., Billy F., Mark Crawford, Lance Smith, and Chuck Goetschel, some of their bigger leaders stayed with the team.
    I no longer have the source to the numbers at seminars or opens anymore.

  487. Will permalink
    February 28, 2011 10:27 pm

    Oh, this was all kinds of whackyness!

    We could all go for days on this topic!

    I recall having phone calling sessions with our teams where we were sitting on 15 applications of people that wanted to get in the business. The phone calling session would be on a Monday and we would tell people that we would put their application in at the end of the week on Saturday. That gave us all week to STP, STP, STP (Gosh I hate typing out this crap…bringing back painful memories, lol) and we would tell new people that if they get in they would get 15 applications (or IBOs) automatically put in their teams. Our upline coordinated and planned it this way. We would always question the ETHICS on this as we were basically putting people in the LOS ahead of people that may have seen the business and committed a week or two ahead of them. Everything about this business was sketchy and it bugs me that I did not clearly put everything together until I got out of the business. Once I quit it was so easy to see all of the flaws and terrible practices that they apply in Team.

  488. webelieved permalink
    February 28, 2011 10:29 pm

    Chris Smith gone
    Mike Barret ?

  489. Speak Your Truth permalink
    February 28, 2011 10:30 pm

    I know Chris Smith is but am not sure Mike Barrett.

  490. Will permalink
    February 28, 2011 10:33 pm

    Just for kicks

    Remember this one:

    “The first day Quixtar launched in 1999 we melted IBMs mainframes due to the amount of traffic and hits to the website.” —- Team Open Meeting Speakers, mentioned at every open across the country for 8 years straight.

  491. webelieved permalink
    February 28, 2011 10:34 pm

    Edwards RT triple 100? I only know they are not on speaking for awhile.

  492. webelieved permalink
    February 28, 2011 10:36 pm


  493. Will permalink
    February 28, 2011 10:36 pm

    Renee Oettinger is out as well, right?

  494. Speak Your Truth permalink
    February 28, 2011 10:36 pm

    Great point Will,
    I know some more, Turbo 100’s if I’m remembering right,Rodmans & Brost.

  495. Speak Your Truth permalink
    February 28, 2011 10:39 pm

    Now I busting a gut!
    You and I Quit, (wait til he comes on tomorrow!) catch me off guard and I can’t help but fall off my chair laughing! You are such a blessing!

  496. webelieved permalink
    February 28, 2011 10:39 pm

    I would like to know the ones who were on stage and quit. Everything is so hidden. I guess you could check and see who hasn’t spoke for a long while and get a clue. 🙂

  497. Will permalink
    February 28, 2011 10:39 pm

    Or how about…

    “The US Dept. of Labor puts out this graph every year (referring to the 45 year plan)…”

    This MAJOR point in the plan was covered as well at EVERY open by EVERY speaker over the 8-9 years of Quixtar Team open meetings (or more).

    Guess what?

    They do not put this graph out every year. It does not exist.


  498. Speak Your Truth permalink
    February 28, 2011 10:40 pm

    That was # 500 comment

  499. webelieved permalink
    February 28, 2011 10:41 pm

    oh yeah are they from Wausau open?

  500. Speak Your Truth permalink
    February 28, 2011 10:42 pm

    U.S. Dept, I can’t stop!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  501. Speak Your Truth permalink
    February 28, 2011 10:45 pm

    My upline Diamond used to show the plan with the “world satelite directing some kind of distribution, BS”
    Maybe he meant U.F.O. communications, it was such a line of BS!

  502. webelieved permalink
    February 28, 2011 10:45 pm

    Oh boy I swear someone just brought that up, do they still use it?

  503. webelieved permalink
    February 28, 2011 10:46 pm


  504. Will permalink
    February 28, 2011 10:47 pm


  505. Will permalink
    February 28, 2011 10:48 pm


  506. Speak Your Truth permalink
    February 28, 2011 10:50 pm

    Hey what’s Orrins lastest tweet?

  507. Will permalink
    February 28, 2011 10:50 pm

    I have seen some team monavie blogs out their promote LIFE TRAINING already. I would not be surprised if that is their name they go with because it is generic enough and would fit well with their strategy as Speak Your Truth pointed out.

  508. webelieved permalink
    February 28, 2011 10:53 pm

    Here we were repeating this bs and it doesn’t exist??!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! wow

  509. Will permalink
    February 28, 2011 10:55 pm

    yeah, those are always good for a laugh. lol

  510. webelieved permalink
    February 28, 2011 10:55 pm

    omg.. UFO 🙂 Now that is funny!!!!!!!!!! HAHAAHAAHHHHHH i can see it now! Holy crap that we is funny.

  511. February 28, 2011 10:58 pm

    Where did you hear this? Last I saw on the TEAM calendar, she was still doing weekly opens.

  512. Speak Your Truth permalink
    February 28, 2011 11:01 pm

    I can’t wait to post some of the cult stuff but you guys have to come and face some reality, but keep us laughing.

    Off that subject but what about how we used to “do our customer reporting” or pay our bonus’ out of our own checkbooks, in the Yager system? Did you have to do that?

    No Renee is still in.

  513. webelieved permalink
    February 28, 2011 11:01 pm

    NO she’s on speaking list.

  514. Will permalink
    February 28, 2011 11:02 pm

    I have been out for a while and have not been on Teams site looking at opens, so I do not know for sure about Renee. I have friends that I speak with reg. that quit and also old friends that are still in the business. Though, they are starting to distance themselves from me as they still drink the juice and their uplines have warned them about my 95% behavior in loserville, usa

  515. Will permalink
    February 28, 2011 11:05 pm

    Oh yeah, reporting retail in order to get your Q bonus. Now that was shady too. I had people question the ethics of this policy directly to Orrin’s face at pv parties, calling sessions etc. and he always would spin his way out of it and justify the way people LIED when reporting by saying ‘Well, even though you do not sell the product to someone you are probably giving away 50 pv at least in SAMPLE products, so I just count that as RETAIL.’ What a bunch of crock.

  516. webelieved permalink
    February 28, 2011 11:06 pm

    Did Bob Hemila leave??. He’s been around for awhile I think?

  517. Will permalink
    February 28, 2011 11:09 pm

    Not sure on the Hemillas, how many profit sharers left with the Morgans?

  518. Speak Your Truth permalink
    February 28, 2011 11:14 pm

    This is something we did not do.
    We would get someone started, if they post dated a check then we used it til that date and would only offer them anyone unless we needed the that “Ace.” Man was it work trying to keep integrity for our own conscience but in the end we all know the real results! So sad.
    We would make sure who ever we showed the plan to we would ask on what date or day they wanted their number by, it was still skechy but we did hold to what-ever integrity we could except we just had to be more creative, Yea- I am sure it was all illegal! How shameful!

  519. February 28, 2011 11:20 pm

    Michael Scott and the Office on Pyramids…


  520. Speak Your Truth permalink
    February 28, 2011 11:21 pm

    Yep Will same here on the shady answers , and what saved them with that was XS!

  521. February 28, 2011 11:23 pm

    Yeah, I have not been around lately. I have heard rumors here and there that LOTS of people are struggling with making monavie work.

    “UHHH….NO CRAP, we are in a recession and you are trying to sell a liter of Juicy Juice for the price of a tank of gas!”

  522. Speak Your Truth permalink
    February 28, 2011 11:29 pm

    Will my speakers aren’t working, DANG, have to watch, with sound tomorrow! The RED tie, Blue Suit, White Shirt, OMG! I think my spouse wore that one, LOL!
    Remember that was only like 4 styles that were red in Q so everyone even had the same ones! OMG LOL

  523. Speak Your Truth permalink
    February 28, 2011 11:30 pm

    Talk with you tomorrow, THANKS FOR THE LAUGHS!

  524. webelieved permalink
    February 28, 2011 11:32 pm

    HOLY CRAP!!!! RED TIE AND BLUE SUIT!!!!! LOLLOLLOLLOL TO FUNNY!!!! i coldn’t wait to throw away every suit and jehovah witness dress we Owned!!!!!!!! JEANS FEEL SOOOOOO GOOOOOOOD.

  525. February 28, 2011 11:32 pm

    This was on some tv show quotes website (you can read the text instead for now) It is that good!! Did not want to make you wait for it…

    Michael: So, Phil recruited me to sell these cards, and now I am recruiting you.
    Oscar: Who is this guy again?
    Michael: Don’t worry about Phil. He drives a corvette. He is doing just fine. Okay. Calling cards are… the wave of the future. These things sell themselves.
    Ryan: Who uses calling cards anymore?
    Michael: You know what? That’s a nice attitude, Ryan, I’m just helping you invest in your future, my friend.
    Oscar: This sounds like a get rich quick scheme.
    Michael: Yes! Thank you! You will get rich quick. We all will!
    Toby: Didn’t you lose a lot of money on that other investment, the one from the email?
    Michael: You know what, Toby? When the son of the deposed king of Nigeria emails you directly, asking for help, you help! His father ran the freaking country, okay? …Alright, so, raise your hand if you wanna get rich. [Jim and Dwight raise their hands] Alright.
    Jim: No, um. How is this not a pyramid scheme?
    Michael: Alright, let me explain. Again. [draws on board] Phil has recruited me and another guy. Now, we are getting three people each. The more people that get involved, the more who are investing, the more money we’re all going to make. It’s not a pyramid scheme, it is a… it’s not even a scheme per se, it’s… [Jim draws a triangle around Michael’s diagram] … I have to go make a call.

  526. webelieved permalink
    February 28, 2011 11:37 pm

    They are discusting and I can hear the teambots promoting it now….

  527. webelieved permalink
    February 28, 2011 11:50 pm

    It is mor funny written down. … Have you seen Believe?

  528. webelieved permalink
    February 28, 2011 11:55 pm

    Hey will do you think they will try to shut this site down? Just wondering since you seem to see the Man more than I?

  529. webelieved permalink
    February 28, 2011 11:56 pm

    Hey Will do you think they will try to shut this site down? Just wondering since you seem to see the Man more than I? Since so many are telling their story…. I wonder what Amthrax thinks??? It is getting crazy on here…

  530. webelieved permalink
    March 1, 2011 12:05 am

    Night Will , thanks for the laughs…. I would take all this to a CULT therapist if I could afford one…. Thanks To TEAM.

  531. I Quit ( and glad I Did) permalink
    March 1, 2011 5:40 am

    We did basically the same thing except when we squeezed we didn’t put “new” plans in front of “old” plans. We structured the leg in order of exposure. Yes this resulted in slower results but we felt the right way is the only way. This attitude applied across the whole gambit of the system resulted in slower growth and less volume long term. We knew it but at least we could feel better about it. This of course caused us and our group (who were taught to do the same by the way) to be viewed as slow and unable to ever be big anytime soon. Pressure to perform and get results can cause you to lose your integrity if you let it. At least we can look back on this little kernel and feel satisfied we didn’t give in. Unfortunately we unknowingly (at the time we were doing it anyway. Now we know better!) caved on other points in our pursuit of the dream. On those we feel remorse for sure. Hindsight is always 20/20.

  532. I Quit ( and glad I Did) permalink
    March 1, 2011 6:13 am

    A BIG THANK YOU TO ALL OF YOU FOR SEVERAL LAUGHS THIS MORNING!!! I’m at work waiting for a truck to finish unloading and then I’ll do something. In the meantime I’m laughing, remembering, and laughing some more. I will enjoy doing my 95% work getting paid a 95% rate. At least I know I’ll get the check!! (not someone else) Oh there go the Teambots! He gave up on his dream. He screwed his family. He’s a loser. Not enough system. They stole his dream. BARF PUKE ERP RETCH HORK VVVOMMMMIIIITTTTTT!!!!!! HERES THE TRUTH… THE LONG TIME PUNCHES KNOCKED THE WIND OUTTA ME. YEARS OF EFFORT, SLOW RESULTS. AND WHEN YOU MAKE IT YOU ARE WELCOMED BY HAVING ALL YOUR EFFORT CONFISCATED. No thanks. I like being broke. (which we aren’t but the system says we are) ONWARD TO BROKENESS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  533. humiliated permalink
    March 1, 2011 6:29 am

    Thank you for your beautiful words Speak…they really touched me and I am so glad that I could contribute, in some small way, to your healing.

    I must say, it is difficult to wrap my head around the fact that Orrin used religion as in integral part of his massive manipulation of everyone, where you are to love every one and everything, yet he taught you to hate more then he taught you to love. Hate those that leave, hate those that don’t produce, hate those on the outside that don’t believe, but worst of all, he taught you to hate yourselves.

    What I see is that when people are in “favor” with Orrin and strategically placed to make money, they turn a blind eye to the corrupt business practices because of the money and he somehow convinces you that it is all right.. In this way he “has you”, because now you are PART of the con . When it is gone, it is hard to tell him what he is doing is wrong because he knows that you know that you knowingly participated in it.

    Seriously people, that man is a sociopath who manipulates everyone in his path. He doesn’t need to repent, he needs to be in a mental institution somewhere where he can’t harm anyone else. And, know this, none of this is your fault. This screams of Cult leader and there are so many layers to this, your faith in God, your want for a better life for your family, your incredible motivation to “improve” yourselves through all of this “training, he used ALL of that against you. Truly diabolical.

  534. humiliated permalink
    March 1, 2011 6:35 am

    Will. I was reading your comment and this is what I “saw” just before your comment about needing a beer’
    “This should easily tell people that the PROBLEM is not with these people, the PROBLEM lies with ORRIN and his TOOL ”

    I started laughing to myself, then wondered if that really isn’t the essence of this man’s problems? Just sayin’…perhaps the need to feel powerful and big is because he lacks in…ahem…other areas? It would explain a lot….

  535. webelieved permalink
    March 1, 2011 6:46 am

    Humiliated, Thank you for your kind words to all of us they are very healing… It is so good for someone outside to see what has truly been going on and then to write it down. It was so hard to wrap my brain around what had happened to me, but because of this blog it is way better…. Because of the indoctrination you doubt yourself, but to see all this in writing and remember it makes it all too clear. I hope to save this so someday when my kids were adults and can understand, they can read all of this and see why they missed out all those years and why their mom was so sad for so long.

  536. webelieved permalink
    March 1, 2011 7:04 am

    Hey Will, maybe we should make a LEAVING video, remember that one????? haha that one gave me a good laugh. …. when i was coerced in my thinking about Q, and I couldn’t see the writing on the wall…. Did Q sue on that one????? It is sick, I loved RETURN TO SENDER……..It did give me a good laugh since i only saw Q as the enemy, hence my brainwashing!!! How stupid….I loved XS. We were even trying to find a way to order
    Quit….who else do you know quit ?????? RT profit sharers

  537. webelieved permalink
    March 1, 2011 7:18 am

    my experience exactly……. I hope my diamond has a good time eating his pineapple boat in Hawaii!!! I hope he doesn’t choke on it when his conscience comes back!!!!!

  538. webelieved permalink
    March 1, 2011 7:20 am

    You really aren’t techy are you

  539. March 1, 2011 7:50 am

    With due respect to everyone commenting here, there’s been a lot more noise to signal lately. Many of the responses are more IM-like responses than comments. For a new reader coming here, they might be confused or overwhelmed with the amount of content to read. I try to keep the comments on topic as much as possible and tone down perhaps the excessive chatter.

    If any of you want to write a guest post about a particular topic, please send me an email. I like what Anna Banana’s blog is doing ( where she talks about one topic that irked her (she was in Amway). Instead of posting it this blog where it might get hidden by all of the other comments, I’d be happy to post in on this site.

    There’s plenty of TEAM-related content on my TEAM/Orrin Woodward tags page. Don’t be afraid to comment there too!

  540. March 1, 2011 8:05 am

    @Jim – there’s no martyrdom here, we all have different abilities and lifestyles. I myself am against materialism and want to

  541. March 1, 2011 8:26 am

    Oops my keyboard is acting up and I have to start over again. Anyway I wanted to say that I prefer to live close to Mother Nature and not use so much of the earth’s resources.l think it’s prudent to not waste our money on all kinds of stuff while we can be focused on other things like helping the poor, families, whatever. lt is a good idea to look out for our Children’s education and not deny them like TEAM does. And Jim, a (ot of us are hurting and angry, that’s why you’ve seeing us reacting the way we do. We need to vent. Let us vent and heal, and let us develop our passion in helping others leave TEAM. OK???

  542. Ryan Seewald - Job Free Musician. permalink
    March 1, 2011 8:57 am

    “I hope he doesn’t choke on it when his conscience comes back!!!!!” LMAO!!! This comment made me laugh so hard!!!! I’m pretty sure his conscience is doing just fine xD and… you’re the one that hopes other people choke on pineapple boats in hawaii, i highly doubt your diamond does.. HAH you note conscience and then you state a remark that should effect yours xD omg so hilarious!!

    Once again, Satisfying your emotions by acts of selfish word play is NOT healing. lmao ^^; you guys are only going to get worse and worse if you keep this up. Sorry mate, just the truth.

    and to keep this one topic, TEAM ROCKS! that’s my ex-team experience. i say ex because i no longer participate and haven’t for quite some time. Haha and all of you can make fun of my video that i wrote over a year ago as my first song. I don’t get people in with that song you guys are just hilarious. But yeah go ahead and bash it, bash it directly on the youtube page if ya want. lol Because here’s the thing, nothing you can say is going to stop me from winning, and it doesn’t effect how i feel or others feel about it.
    Lets see you do a better FIRST song… eh? all by your self, just like me. that’d be impressive =)

    You guys talk about conscience but clearly you are deaf to it with the amount of time you spend each day attacking other people.

  543. One time Fly that sat at the Team Conference Table permalink
    March 1, 2011 9:06 am

    I recently (within the last 72 hrs) spoke with a close friend who assured me that this blog and this thread in particular is being noticed and is obviously having an effect. OW knows we are all talking.

    I do know that Michael Barrett is now a Logistics Officer in the US Army these days. I don’t know if he is still with TEAM.

  544. March 1, 2011 10:05 am

    As far as I know, these calendars are area-specific, I would like to find out if LeeAnn and Alex Nickerson are still in TEAM.

  545. March 1, 2011 10:10 am

    Hi guys, lzzy hear, lost use of my keyboard for typing, but wanted to let you know I’m reading, getting new laptop from Dell.

  546. March 1, 2011 10:13 am

    Ryan u r seriously NOT LISTENING to ANYTHING to what we’re saying! I though you would be reasonable and consider for yourself the issues we are facing. *sigh*

  547. webelieved permalink
    March 1, 2011 10:15 am

    Amthrax, could you clarify what it is you do or do not want us to say?
    This chatting is revealing humor and things behind the scenes that maybe will not be apparent to most. Also it is supportive of each other…. to know we have experienced the same things…. We are connecting across the country at the only place we may find each other. Respectfully, the freedom to speak is most valuable to me as I have been told what to do and think for many years. Thank You.
    P.s. I understand saying good nite may not be useful 🙂
    Is there another place we could chat?
    Also is there a way to number the main posts for easy reference????

  548. March 1, 2011 10:19 am

    I’d like to know if LeeAnn & Alex Nickerson are still on TEAM? She was Ruby this time last yr & had a CD released With TEAM. Ididn’t .listen to it, though. They’re from the Halifax area, I think.

  549. team deception permalink
    March 1, 2011 10:20 am

    Of course he knows about it he googles himself all day long. Can you say narcissistic???

    A person with narcissistic personality disorder may:

    •React to criticism with rage, shame, or humiliation

    •Take advantage of other people to achieve his or her own goals

    •Have excessive feelings of self-importance

    •Exaggerate achievements and talents

    •Be preoccupied with fantasies of success, power, beauty, intelligence, or ideal love

    •Have unreasonable expectations of favorable treatment

    •Need constant attention and admiration

    •Disregard the feelings of others, and have little ability to feel empathy

    •Have obsessive self-interest

    •Pursue mainly selfish goals

    *** Will also google him or herself on an hourly basis.

  550. March 1, 2011 10:26 am

    Oh dear, should we connect privately or something?

    For me, I need to feel I am not alone, what we went thru Was traumatic, &we can’t keep it all inside. I’m also go to my Dr for counsoling referral, but l also need to be around ppl that understand as well.


  551. orrinsux permalink
    March 1, 2011 10:34 am

    Does anyone know the name/location of the church in Michigan where Pastor Dickie is the Senior Pastor? Also, did the church survive all of this chaos? Its so sad when things like this effect a church but when you get greedy people who are in the pocket of the pastor its a recipe for disaster! I’d be interested in hearing from ex-TEAMsters from that church. How is it doing? Also, in the earlt days the CEO was a guy named Rob Halstrand. Anyone remember him? What is he up to? He was basically a “yes” man or “TEAMbot” for Orrin. P.S. Hey Orrin!!! LOL!!!

  552. I Quit ( and glad I Did) permalink
    March 1, 2011 10:47 am

    Believed- I’ve been thinking about your question. I’m only aware of one other name aside from the rest that have been mentioned already. I know that Pat and Lisa Semple quit too. They were PF but not RT I believe. I don’t know for sure of any others. Actually I have a list of names that I’m curious about and I don’t waste my time on the Team website so…
    What about: Wayne and Leanna Kircher
    Kirk and Cassie Birtles
    Mark and Anna Huber
    Joe and Jane McGuire
    Ed and Lynette Zentner
    Whats up with these folks?

  553. Speak Your Truth permalink
    March 1, 2011 10:48 am

    One Time Fly

    No doubt but why don’t they just do what Orrin taught us all?
    Why don’t they just go build the buisness and prove their results instead like he says, and not pay any attention or worry about one little blog that people are venting years of frustation and voicing their oppinons and experiences.
    This is the very reason why people want to share their experiences and stories, just like we did on the Team.

    He himself tells others to ignore this, then why don’t they just listen to him. Really why would any of the Team come on here? By them coming on here, does this build their business? What would be their motive and purpose for this?

    It makes no sense if they really believe what they say. This really shouldn’t have any impact on them according to the one’s that come on here and say it really doesn’t matter what is said. Those people believe we are just negative.

    So I get it; we don’t live in a free speech country and are Not suppose to tell any truth about our experiences to anyone!

    They can take our friends and money but they will not take our VOICES, DIGNITY OR OUR FREEDOM, never ever again!

    So I would think, that just maybe, if people weren’t not promised things that they did not keep, and messed with people’s business and shouldn’t slander us as Will stated, then their really wouldn’t be anything to talk about.
    Then we could promote them as they themselves do!

    So just some words, remove our experiences and we will be glad to use our “How to Win Friends;” techniques toward all them loving, Godly, intelligent, Honest, Humble, Guru’s!

    Please give us something great to talk about! We would be “Happy” to speak from our Postive Attitudes!

  554. March 1, 2011 10:50 am

    BTW I am feeling very vulnerable knowing that we’re being watched. Makes methink all kinds of crazy things…argh…

    I don’t know, I’m really upset right now.

  555. Speak Your Truth permalink
    March 1, 2011 10:52 am

    Izzy We are still here for you.
    Way to go team deception!
    Orrinsux Berean Baptist Church
    Gotta go will be back

  556. I Quit ( and glad I Did) permalink
    March 1, 2011 10:52 am


  557. I Quit ( and glad I Did) permalink
    March 1, 2011 10:54 am

    How did that go?… I’m scaywd…

  558. webelieved permalink
    March 1, 2011 11:00 am

    Hey I think Rob is still is in Team inner circle, heard he was actually the new ceo or whatever they are calling him? Pastor Dickie’s church has had a lot of pain from what I have heard. I wish he would make a public statement he is no longer with Team, if that is the case….. 🙂
    Also it is Berean Baptist Church.

  559. webelieved permalink
    March 1, 2011 11:04 am

    Izzy trust me they have much BIGGER FISH TO FRY then you….I know the paranoia though. and I am sorry, but we are here and I am not going anywhere!!! How bout the rest of you????? Do not be afraid as the truth will set you free.

  560. March 1, 2011 11:11 am

    If it were me, I would try to keep the comments on-topic and somewhat substantive. I’m not about to start moderating comments left and right. Know that it is hard to follow the conversation when there are so many new comments in the span of a day. Imagine what someone coming to the site after a few days will have to wade through.

    I don’t have control over this blog’s theme, so there isn’t a way to number the posts as of yet.

  561. webelieved permalink
    March 1, 2011 11:12 am

    Izzy ….. Joshua 1:9 Be strong and courageous, do not be terrified,do not be discouraged
    for the Lord your God is with you wherever you go.

  562. webelieved permalink
    March 1, 2011 12:03 pm

    Ryan, you cannot read. I said ” I HOPE HE DOES NOT!” SO all your other jibberish has no value. I am impressed if that “mv song” is your first ever … as I do not know how to mix music/video etc…. THE OTHER ONE OF WHICH I POSTED….. IS FUNNY ……so what ? that is what you intended clearly by the title!??? Jeez mate don’t take it so personal… maybe you need to slow down when you examine posts. Oh and YOU LET ME WIN (of which I do not care) as you came back for more 🙂

  563. March 1, 2011 12:09 pm

    @ Webelieved. Thank you for the enccouragement from the Scriptures, I know G-D is in C0ntrol, & l can only pray for wisdom & guidance.

    Sorry for messy typing, using an old tablet to “type” should get new laptop March 15th. But I must say something publicly – and that is We have a rightfo speak our minds, and to seek peace within ourselves. Woodward can’t take away this fundamental right.

  564. Vogel permalink
    March 1, 2011 12:21 pm

    Rest assured, Orrin an TEAM have far more reason to fear you all than vice versa.

  565. Ryan Seewald - Job Free Musician. permalink
    March 1, 2011 12:44 pm

    Team is incredible. It has changed my view on life for the better, gotten me going and doing something more with my life, helped repair and create far better relationships, helped my friends find hope again, helped my friends financially, helped my friends physically, helped monavie with helping kids in Brazil, helped me to create my finances making a living doing what i love, helped me see a bigger picture in life, helped me help others with their relationships, helped motivate tons of people to do something greater with their lives, helped me and thousands learn to believe in them selves. NO: team is not responsible for all of my wisdom or gain in life, but it has helped tremendously.

    Editor’s Note: Read the rest of Ryan’s comment here. Ryan has his own little corner on this web site, so please respond to him there instead of here.

  566. webelieved permalink
    March 1, 2011 3:22 pm

    Izzy sorry do not know.

  567. Speak Your Truth permalink
    March 1, 2011 3:23 pm

    Please do not Fear and have faith!
    If you tell the truth, there is absolutely nothing to be afraid of.

    Webelieve- Great verse, that is a Promise!

    I agree but isn’t it sad that they could have this kind of stronghold on other people’s minds. These are mere men.

  568. March 1, 2011 5:22 pm


    Ladies and Gents – We are in for one interesting night!!

  569. team deception permalink
    March 1, 2011 6:09 pm

    Orrinsux. I go to that church and amthrax has my email and he is ok to give it to you and I will answer your questions to the best of my ability.

    More importantly is what orrin is up to now at his new church since the old one found out about his scam.

    Steve Camp and his church is Orrin’s next set of victims. He is a piece of work that is for sure. I know that Steve Camp has been contacted about Orrin via phone and email but who knows if has done any good. Orrin Woodward will also be up here in lansing MI speaking at some leadership pep rally March 12th….. Who’s in? We could all go together!!!

  570. March 1, 2011 6:19 pm

    Steve Camp? Is this the Christian musician, or is this someone totally different?

  571. team deception permalink
    March 1, 2011 6:30 pm

    Ryan, your awesome. Dumb but awesome.

    How low were you in life that you needed a $45.00 juice to get you going in life? Was it the juice itself or the promise of having a big boat someday? You are making it sound like your life was headed to an end UNTIL one day the super fruit juice that doesn’t do anyhting,other than cost $200.00 a month, came into your life to save the day. Come on Ryan your better than this right?????

    You are not making money and you know it.

    Its also not helping you or your friends physically. You want to get healthy? Eat and apple and exercise.

    Dont get us started on the More project… Its another scam within a scam thats within a major scam.

    Ryan says “helped me help others with their relationships, helped motivate tons of people to do something greater with their lives, helped me and thousands learn to believe in them selves”

    What? How is going broke, not getting healthy, and having a garage full of wine bottles filled with nasty juice helping people? You my friend are part of the bigger picture of scamming innocent people to better yourself and TEAM has helped you become that person. Now that’s a leadership revolution!!!

  572. team deception permalink
    March 1, 2011 6:34 pm

    Steve Camp was a Christian musician in the late 80’s and 90’s and today there is Jeremy Camp (no relation).

  573. Ryan Seewald - Job Free Musician. permalink
    March 1, 2011 6:42 pm

    Thanks Amthrax =) Hahaha awesome.

  574. Free At Last permalink
    March 1, 2011 6:58 pm

    No, it’s not Claude because I know Claude and he and Lana met right out of high school and got married very early. They’ve actually been together all through their days of Amway and Quixtar and now Monavie.
    I’m guessing the other PC is Bill Lewis – he’s “dark” skinned. 🙂 He has quite the story and he and his wife Jackie met when Bill was already a diamond in Amway and they hooked up and got married. I believe she already had a child. So, it’s probably them who Orrinsux is referring to.

  575. March 1, 2011 7:14 pm

    Sure is SPESHAL TWEETMENT! I’m freaking jealous that you have your own lil’ corner to whine in, and here I +hought I had a whiing talent! Perhaps TEAMers are the lucky ones, heh heh!

  576. March 1, 2011 7:31 pm

    Good luck to em! It is hard to stop people from speaking A) The Truth or B) Their Opinion or C) Sharing their experiences in Team.

    More people need to come out and EXPOSE Orrin for the snake oil sales-man that he truly is.

    Another thing, the guy promotes Christianity on stage and uses that for credibility to build his business, yet he is in bed with a Mormon juice company and Morman leaders in Dalin Larsen. Orrin supports the MORE project, which is just another MORMON outreach program.

    Are Steve Camp and Tom Ascol listening? Who are they you ask? They are the new team pastors being scammed by Orrin Woodward. I do not know them personally, but I highly doubt they are bad individuals and they are probably sincere Christians who are seeking to advance God’s Kingdom here on earth. That is great. The problem I have is that they are being duped and mis-lead by Orrin who is using them for his own personal gain and for credibility. THEY NEED TO DO THEIR RESEARCH and see that the very business they are endorsing with ORRIN goes against everything THEY STAND FOR as PREACHERS and CHRISTIANS!!

  577. March 1, 2011 7:33 pm

    webelieved & Speak Your Truth – Great chattn with you folks too last night. Sorry it took me a while to get on here today, had to get back to the grind in 95%ville, and man does it feel good!! 😉

  578. March 1, 2011 7:36 pm

    I bet these pastors have no idea that they are in bed with leaders and a company that support a faith (Mormonism) that is totally different than the Gospel message that they preach on every Sunday.

  579. March 1, 2011 7:38 pm

    I love the Chris Brady impressions!

    Gosh that guy is a piece of work.

    his latest photo on his blog in front of the little toy plane makes him look like a shady con-artist. You can tell that he is lacking in the morals dept.

  580. team deception permalink
    March 1, 2011 7:41 pm

    Will, how about the picture of Orrin Woodward on the Forbes article. “Wiggles”???

  581. March 1, 2011 7:44 pm

    hahahaha thanks for the laugh team deception! that was great!!

  582. March 1, 2011 7:49 pm

    @Will – while Mormonism & Chistianity are generally not accepted in each other’s circles, Woodward may very well tell the pastors that TEAM is a Christian organisation & say that he’s praying for Dallin Larsen’s salvation. I’ve seen it myself how people twist religion to suit their needs.

  583. webelieved permalink
    March 1, 2011 9:39 pm

    Will great post!!!

  584. webelieved permalink
    March 1, 2011 9:48 pm

    Anyone have any topics for some articles we could put together???

  585. webelieved permalink
    March 1, 2011 10:27 pm

    Hey this is a post from about a month ago, thought it may enlighten you all. another part of our story on Team. “…….If someone felt they were hurt, why not seek out the leaders of the company or community for resolution? Doesn’t this sounds like the right thing, not to mention the honorable thing to do? Rather than post anonymously, hiding their identities as well as their real motives, assaulting the reputations of people that they don’t personally know, why not call the community leaders or the company to get the issue resolved? Any reputable company would serve the customer in a heartbeat.” -Orrin

    What a joke that is!!!!
    He is trying to make people who have legitimate complaints look foolish and evil. Folks, think for yourself why would I risk everything to tell my story? and why would I waste my time?
    Answer: To help others from being hurt.
    Why would they tell you not to listen to me two reasons,
    1. they are brainwashed to not look at any opposing views and
    2. they have a financial interest in you staying! I know the game.
    We were Round Table members with Team. We have been silent and oppressed due to fear, for years. It is time to speak out the truth. A few years ago almost all of our income went down mysteriously to @500-@1,000 a month from @9,000+ with no jobs!) seeing this, the deception and unethical happenings going on around us in Team,and deathly ill from it, we had to stop attending meetings. No calls from upline or leaders downline, although secret meetings with lies and slander were held with our downline.
    A few months later our profit sharing checks were taken away by our upline in TEAM. No phone call, nothing. When we went to Orrin he said we don’t own our customers!?? They also won’t give us copies of our old contracts or the new contracts. Wow! years of work, 6 nights a week. We were speaking at tues night meetings for years and speaking at seminars all over the country. A few years ago we made short of $100,000 from Team ( @30,000 from quixtar) We did the work. We earned it.
    Orrin and another PC approved our profit sharing being taken away with not so much as a phone call. He did this to others too. He nor our upline or downline had spoken directly with us for about a year. Everything any downline or upline knew was rumor, hearsay, and popular opinion as no leader called us to learn the truth! We were their friends, or so we thought.
    So wanted to let you know you can do the work and Team can take your earned money away any time they want. Interesting, huh? So much for passive,residual,ongoing income.
    We are climbing up from the ashes of financial and emotional destruction and are so glad God saved us from the lies we wanted to believe.
    They don’t practice what they preach. As for us, we will stick with our true friends.

    That’s right folks ….Read it and weep, I do. Let’s hear some of your stories. Did I mention my teams were bringing in ten’s of thousands for TEAM!!!

  586. Speak Your Truth permalink
    March 1, 2011 10:40 pm

    I Quit
    Thanks for once again, for a laugh out loud experience!

  587. webelieved permalink
    March 1, 2011 10:42 pm

    This is another comment found on lazyman’s site that sounds similar, what do you think?

    California Dreamer-
    “Webelieved – I like reading your comments because I get a good sense that you had achieved a certain level of success, hung around with the top leaders, and then woke up to the truth.

    Were you involved with family on the Team?

    I agree with you, I know of leaders who quit the business, but built a substantial business, two legs, both with decent system counts and that business was all given away to their upline. So much for residual income long after you stop working the business. I agree with you about distributors which are not in someone’s downline yet some slick talking, ex-military, hustler, with no values, morals, or INTEGRITY benefits from earning profit sharing from many director’s not in his group or even Country. He tells his team that they can achieve the same level of success if they work as hard. This is NOT true. It’s a darn lie. He would never allow others in his group the opportunity to pick up groups that they didn’t build themselves… they would suddenly earn profit sharing when he could keep this money for himself… this is yet another reason why some of the big leaders on Team are earning more money from them strategically placing legs to maximize their tool money…but no one knows this… its mis-leading and deceptive, and yet they are all involved in it. Orrin, Chris, Tim, George, Bill and Claude. Maybe Pastor Dickie left the Team because he realized this was wrong??? Maybe he realized that some of these leaders have moral flaws, character issues at home? Or maybe he realized who they are on stage in front of thousands is not the REAL person behind the scenes when he/she is hanging out with friends???? Maybe there’s a lot more to the story than what the general public believes. Who really knows?”

  588. aurora permalink
    March 2, 2011 5:22 am

    This commenter requested that her comments be removed from this site.

  589. webelieved permalink
    March 2, 2011 6:17 am

    Aurora, I know isn’t it funny, they never answer ??? Or sad…. They cannot think on their own. They want to believe. … I used to be like that….ignorant and it cost me years of my life, my health, my finances, almost my marriage, almost my faith…… The only thing we can do is ask the hard questions over and over until they have a crack in their brain. They are taught what I and cult experts believe, thought stopping techniques…. The whole loser, didn’t do the work, dream stealer crap, don’t waste your time, bathroom wall (I used that one a lot)OMGosh. It strips them of their ability to critically think and look at both sides, they can’t even do it!!! SOOOO SAD.
    I wanted to let you know I love reading your posts!!! You CRACK ME UP, you are contributing to my healing with your humor. I have not laughed in a real way with feelings for years because of this oppression…. THANK YOU!!! Keep up the good fight!!! We are saving people’s lives/brains…It is awful to wake up and see that you have been manipulated and duped for years!!!!! And that you contributed to the lie. 😦 😦

  590. I Quit ( and glad I Did) permalink
    March 2, 2011 7:30 am

    Say whatever became of the list of successful Teamers who are no longer on board? How long did it ever get? Seeing that many SUCCESSFUL folks bail out is a very telling statistic don’t ya think? Do we have an updated list? I’m sure some new readers would love some enlightenment?!!

  591. aurora permalink
    March 2, 2011 8:02 am

    This commenter requested that her comments be removed from this site.

  592. webelieved permalink
    March 2, 2011 8:05 am

    manipulation and guilt yep , that is there tactic.

  593. webelieved permalink
    March 2, 2011 9:08 am

    I will show you my squedule C !!! Get them to tell and show the facts. LOL

  594. March 2, 2011 10:10 am

    Just a quick, question, is the profit sharing TOTALLY SEPARATE than the MV commissions from your own personal sales and personal downlines? Didn’t you still make money from the MV company?

  595. webelieved permalink
    March 2, 2011 11:11 am

    Team is seperate

  596. Speak Your Truth permalink
    March 2, 2011 11:19 am

    Your earn commission from MV when you have a team in MV buying the juice
    Profit-sharing ~ you get made only on the tools & speaking.

  597. March 2, 2011 12:07 pm

    I know it sounds like a stupid question esp since I was in TEAM for 7 months but I never got a single personal under me in neither MV or TEAM.

  598. Speak Your Truth permalink
    March 2, 2011 12:31 pm

    This doesn’t sound stupid.
    It more to me sounds like they were not helping you in anyway. Either you were in a “spot” that was not important to their pay or had other reasons they would only know about. So don’t beat yourself up, only 1% make it to the big money (they constantly touted the 1%) and it takes many years to get there and slowing killing yourself to get there.
    Do not be ashamed, it is corrupt and does so much damage in all area’s of people’s lives.

  599. Will permalink
    March 2, 2011 1:13 pm

    webelived – WOW. I don’t know where to start.

    Where did Orrin write this message at a month ago?

    Talk about the hypocrisy.

    Remember D-DAY and Team filing the lawsuit against Quixtar in August of 2007?

    Remember Orrin and Chris having a GAG order by the courts stating that they were not to blog, communicate or solicit IBOs in Quixtar?

    Remember Orrin rallying up his troops and creating a devastating SMEAR campaign against Quixtar posting FALSE statements, SLANDEROUS comments, lies and accusations to belittle Quixtar, the Quixtar founders and Quixtar executives? Now I am not a pro Q person by any means, however, I am just pointing out that Orrin was totally FINE bashing, lying, blogging anonymously and hurling unethical, immoral and derogatory slurs against Q. And now he is trying to pull the card that people shouldn’t blog anonymously?

    What a hypocrite!!

    We are on this site sharing the truth, our experiences and opinions. Far from SLANDERING anyone the way ORRIN DID against Quixtar.

    Remember SAVE US DICK DEVOSS and how they SLANDERED the DeVoss family by calling them a bunch of inbreds? Yeah, that is REAL CHRISTIAN LIKE!!! Good job Orrin. Way to set an example of what a leader, christian and Team Life Training Coach should do.

  600. March 2, 2011 1:16 pm

    To be honest, I didn’t want to really get into TEAM politics, although I never expressed my view to my upline. All I really wanted was to get my family off of welfare since I’m not able to work. I know last going off, I explained to her my anxiety disorder & depression in detail, and also having trouble communicating & grasping concepts, etc, but she just told me “don’t receive it in Jesus’s Name” & tried to tell me how intelligent I was. She never worked with the issues I brought up. There were just too much to “learn” & it was so overwhelming.

    Anyway I’m just ranting, so many frigging memories…

  601. Will permalink
    March 2, 2011 1:18 pm

    DAN said “Or perhaps are you suggesting that people should invest 100s of thousands in anconventiomal type business that offers no guarantees and with no proven duplicatable system.”

    Really Dan?

    I want ONE person to show me the GUARANTEE and facts that Team has a PROVEN duplicatable system.

    The only people making money in this business are the few at the top that are taken it from your pockets. I am sorry for you mate! I truly am.

  602. March 2, 2011 1:44 pm

    @Will, just read your comment now…I believe compahies should keep religion out of business.

  603. webelieved permalink
    March 2, 2011 1:55 pm

    When our income dropped to under $1,000, for six months, we were not in mv…. nothing. Yet the Team where OUR BIGGEST CHECK CAME FROM, apparently decided they didn’t have to pay certain people the money they owed them… ? WHile others got special deals it seems and were taken care of….. people that had smaller teams, system counts,tools, tickets. An example that I know of is a couple you would know from cds,they were ROUND TABLE MEMBERS AND HAD A PROFIT SHARER (possibly several) MAKE THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS MORE THAN THEM!!!!!……people with SUBSTANTIALLY SMALLER GROUPS WERE GETTING PAID WAY MORE!!!! Some were given large system counts and tickets for profit sharing, by their PC to count for money. (people that are not in their mv team)…. also they were hand picked for speaking at seminars to earn more income …….while others with bigger teams and more numbers, that had spoke more, were starved financially……….ehtical huh…? So imagine going from @10,000 a month to under a @thousand for a family with children. And imagine that you put all that money back into your business and then your pay disappeared with no explaination. AND IMAGINE THAT YOUR DOWNLINE …. IT SEEMS WERE GETTING SPECIAL DEALS FROM POLICY COUNSEL???!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! IN PROFIT SHARING!!! Imagine that your team was still buying tens of thousands of dollars in team tools and you still had most of the numbers ….. What did they do with the Money????????????????????? discuting to say the least. ILLEGAL, UNEHTICAL, IMORAL?????
    Then we got into mv. A whole nother story ……. the registration process forced upon us like others said was unethical to say the least….??? My upline pc, and now diamond and a few downline helped divide and corrupt my team on that one. Threats , stealing , harassment, you name it. I’ll have to tell that story later when my blood pressure comes down.


  604. March 2, 2011 2:07 pm

    Ouch. >.<

    I'm glad I never got far in TEAM, then. You have every right to be pissed off.


  605. webelieved permalink
    March 2, 2011 2:09 pm

    “I am amazed you are able to continue to even function after the nightmare you described”

    I am not functioning, I am sick as hell, cannot function, because of this oppression!!!!!!!!!!!!
    Suffering severe deppression, physically felt like i was going to die of exhaustion…… or saddness.
    I feel like a thousand million pounds have been lifted off of my chest……. I have laughed more in the last week than in years and cried too. It is so freeing to tell the truth….. I have lived with this abuse for years…….used and thrown in the trash!!!

  606. webelieved permalink
    March 2, 2011 2:55 pm

    Hey aurora,vogel, switch, amthrax and anyone else that has kept this site going i say THANK YOU!!!

  607. Speak Your Truth permalink
    March 2, 2011 2:58 pm

    Perhaps Dan could share with us his story and how he “earned,” his- duplicatable business? I am sure we could learn at lot from those details.
    If I were a betting person, I bet it would be a real education and some amazing insight.
    I have to agree with him, as a matter of fact I agree with almost all of what he says; and that this whole website has some very “interesting comments.” Just curious and wondering if he recognizes the truth in or similarities in” building the business” or is just choosing to ignore them (Because accepting most of them as factual and not just critical opinion) this could cut into the very bottom line he is trying to hang on to Hmm…?
    His comment; “The critic only speaks of opinion and doesn’t show results.”
    That statement is a total farce; he needs to re-read the post.
    As a matter of fact Ex-team says just the opposite; he is speaking from EXPERIENCE not opinion, and Cleary states he had some results and did all that “work” that it takes; in everything in life.

  608. Dorothy permalink
    March 2, 2011 4:32 pm

    This commenter requested that her comments be removed from this site.

  609. Dorothy permalink
    March 2, 2011 4:49 pm

    This commenter requested that her comments be removed from this site.

  610. Will permalink
    March 2, 2011 4:56 pm

    Orrin and Chris had one major RULE for ALL open meeting speakers to share at the opens, and that was the fact that TEAM was/is the opportunity. They told us that they did not want to mention Quixtar because Quixtar had a bad reputation online with the so-called Negative Internet. They were afraid that people would not join, so they would pitch the business plan as if it was entirely Team and leadership development, and oh-by the way we have a small relationship with partner stores such as circuit city, disney, Sony, ATT etc. They only mentioned those large companies and never mentioned Quixtar. The same holds true with MonaVie.

    They are forever stating that Team is the community and opportunity and that their partners (Quixtar and MonaVie) can change at any time.

    This is really dodgy as they are not honest and up-front with people. I remember people signing up and then a few weeks later quitting and upset becasue they found out they were in Quixtar (knew of it) and wanted nothing to do with that type of business. WE WERE FREAKING AWESOME AT SIGNING PEOPLE FOR THAT TO HAPPEN, LET ME TELL YOU!!! 😉

  611. Will permalink
    March 2, 2011 4:57 pm

    I am sure that Speak Your Truth, Webelieved, iQuit, Izzy and Fly on the Wall can back me up with more stories and further details as well on this topic.

  612. Dorothy permalink
    March 2, 2011 4:57 pm

    This commenter requested that her comments be removed from this site.

  613. webelieved permalink
    March 2, 2011 5:02 pm

    Profit Sharing, Simple answer, you don’t know…. I didn’t know until i was almost platnum, was in a year and a half of 6 days a week and I was going to quit cuz the expenses were so big, that is when my upline showed me his team check and it was the same as his q check as i recall – Also we follow the system, duplication right. They show numbers at the open but dont say profit sharing, although that money was definately part of the 2-3 thousand they promised in 2-5 years. Trust me if they didn’t pay tool money in Q i would have quit as the expense to build it was so high, and it was so much work the way the Team does it. It was sold isn’t Orrin so nice he shares his profit with us???
    As far as paying your way , remember the guru is so amazing and untouchable and you think it is such an honor you just do it….. Although i have to say when I had to buy dinner after i had spent roughly 1000 on car and travel, I was a little shocked. But it is an honor right……It’s your business, a good honorable person would pay there own way, why should…. blank ..have to????? Maybe because you earned your way to there house and you are making them tens of thousands of dollars in tool money!!!!!!!!!!!!! And you only went there once in 6 years of killing yourself!!
    It was such an honor. It is really so you can go back and edify and be edified you were with the guru, and you saw his great house and big boat…… IT IS CALLED EXPENSIVE DREAM BUILDING!!!

  614. Will permalink
    March 2, 2011 5:05 pm

    webelieved – I am SO SORRY to hear about your experience with Team and the pain and hardship this has caused you and your family. Please know that you are in our thoughts and prayers and we are here supporting you thru this. Orrin will get his, you can be sure of that. God will not let this go unpunished. I can promise you that.

  615. webelieved permalink
    March 2, 2011 5:13 pm

    That is why they say build numbers. it used to be turbo 25 to get profit sharing. I never hid it but it wasn’t part of the plan according to our leaders, they never taught it. I am not sure why? if i remember right they did not want other people in Q to know because they would’ve jumped ship to TEAM..???? It has been a long time. I believe Team should be required to have a income disclosure for profit sharing… ..that is given out when the plan is shown…… now that would be interesting…… how many involved and how many making money and how much?????????????? But now there are special deals, for certain people so they couldn’t do it…..

  616. webelieved permalink
    March 2, 2011 5:17 pm

    Yeah they count it however it benefits them for recognition or money….. My upline could use my numbers they took from leg 1 and count them in his other team leg 2 for profit sharing which is what he did….. counted them in his other leg where he needed the numbers….Pretty discusting and decieving too.

  617. webelieved permalink
    March 2, 2011 5:25 pm

    Ditto Will, all about team…. team team team…… not q they were just a shopping portal…. OH BUT NOW ORRIN SAYS OUR PASSIVE INCOME IS MV….. not team!!!!!! So tough luck….. see ya!! thanks for your huge team, now we don’t have to pay you…. although funny if team isnt the business than why did we sell it for 6 months when we were not in any mlm???? Huh Orrin?????? I would love to take that one to court!!!! man what a liar.

  618. Will permalink
    March 2, 2011 5:31 pm

    haha, that is so funny webelieved and pathetic at the same time on how they operate. I used to loathe the PV parties where i had to buy 150pv from Q in order to be friends with Orrin Woodward and hang out at a party with him. What a joke.

    And I agree, if they are making you slave away to hit some goal and you spend a grand in car/travel and time away from your kids, the least they can do is buy you a lunch. Orrin is the CHEAPEST little bugger I have ever seen. That is why the movie theater in his basement looks worse than going to a closed down cinema. He thinks he can impress people with his dream lifestyle that he has and all the nice things, but that guy wouldnt know what a luxurious lifestyle was if it stared him in the eye. I remember a few of my former uplines qualifed for a power player party to go out on his yacht and they came back down saying that it was run down and needed a ton of work.

    The guy reminds me his own CD where he talks about JEB fishing down by the water hole. I find it funny he is making fun of some redneck on cd, when he is clearly the redneck that scammed his way into some cash and likes to think he is the next Bill Gates. Sorry Orrin. You still look and talk the way you did before (funny) and don’t have any class. People with class and a true gentlemen will not SCAM his way into wealth and lie and slander all along the way.

  619. webelieved permalink
    March 2, 2011 5:36 pm

    Will I just want to know where the hell is everyone else who has been screwed. Why the hell won’t they say it???? You must know……. some….. we need more to tell their stories…….. I feel like i have been through a war… and I do not want people to live in the HELL i have lived in!!!

  620. Speak Your Truth permalink
    March 2, 2011 5:38 pm

    Hypocrite and the only thing he is a Master at is Manipulation! He slivers into people’s lives and uses them as pawns. I have seen this for many years but my spouse, even with some pointing out of everything I could, without sounding too “negative.” He wasn’t so discerning unfortunately because of “the friendship he believed he had he had with this snake” postal doesn’t even come close to this one!
    There is no hiding his character now, is there?
    When I started to see and feel something really wrong with him and seriously questioning; “something mentally going wrong and his true colors bleeding through” was about 5 years before the exodus (out of team completely) when he started being vocal about telling us to “edifying only him.” I don’t remember his slippery wording but I truly began to see and feel something very eerie. I could almost see “the power trip he and was putting himselve on.” I knew something was really wrong and the ‘bible studies”, the seminars and hoopla started to become smoke and mirrors to me because some of what they said I knew was ½ truth/lies but I felt trapped. I was battling inside, then would get around my team and forget about it somewhat, until the next seminar or major. Then it became louder and louder from there and I became sicker also. Hindsight now; OMG Cult leaders written all over it!
    I remember he would make comments about others “outside,” “the us versus them”” CULT TACTIC,” where he would say “they are going to eat their words;” Referring to the critics. The irony of it all is mindboggling! There has to be way for more people out there to speak up. The thing people don’t understand fully is there isn’t a ton of people that made it close enough to see what the RT and above had seen and others that were around since the beginning. Thank God we didn’t go Diamond! But more need to share, even if is a year they had been in, how much they lost etc..

  621. Will permalink
    March 2, 2011 5:47 pm

    webelieved – That is a great question. I know that I know of some people and I am sure that you and Speak Your Truth, Izzy, iQuit and others could REACH OUT as well. Obviously, we all need to be delicate, gracious about the situation. It is hard trying to be professional when we all feel so much anger and hurt over what happened. I will try to tone down my rhetoric as well and let just the Righteous Anger come out. Sorry if a few of my previous posts were ranting and off topic, I just have some much bitterness and resentment from what I experienced, like you all here.

    So, lets try and reach out to others in a nice way and see if we can get them to understand the importance of speaking out to let people know the truth. If we all got just one person we could DOUBLE OUR NUMBERS right? Hey! There’s a thought. How about we call it —



  622. Speak Your Truth permalink
    March 2, 2011 5:56 pm

    I think these guys did answer but maybe I can shed more light latter, I am really tired after reading Ryan’s post, whew I will catch up with him latter too.I will answer the trip thing, we didn’t even know ourselves, can you imagine what a shock this was to all of us that busted our butts to get there. Slow indoctrination, means slowly give the info. it is the only way to get people hooked, without you or I knowing, clever, slimy, and unethical, we now know(after fog lifts) that is why we are all on here.

    Webelived lol on the dinner, been there did that too many times to count!
    Remember the fun-in-the-sun.

    Will I heard Bill and Jackie bought OW mich. home. Didnt try and dig on this, to verify though. O must needed to get out of town quick, lol

  623. Dorothy permalink
    March 2, 2011 6:01 pm

    This commenter requested that her comments be removed from this site.

  624. Speak Your Truth permalink
    March 2, 2011 6:09 pm

    This is very shady talk and they never really come out and say it, but it is meant in both juice & profit-sharing because it counts for volume in MV and counts for system in Team, they go hand in hand. Orrin did not come up with this, this has been repeated since the system began decades ago.
    We learned way back that the numbers in system brought butts in seats which = the volume. This was very predicatable and proved out, because of the indoctrination of the system, duh-hindsight again they would stay in, then you could push the volume, once they were on system or even if they weren’t because we could move people up the bonus chart with allot of pursuasion because we could prove to them they would get a bonus, even though some would only get $6 at the bottom but they were new. Oh the memories are flooding now, I really don’t know how they do it in MV and honestly don’t care.

  625. Dorothy permalink
    March 2, 2011 6:16 pm

    This commenter requested that her comments be removed from this site.

  626. March 2, 2011 6:22 pm

    They didn’t explain anything to me, & I thought it was all Monavie that was doing everything. I had no idea about any profit sharing in TEAM whatsoever! of a person earns or wins a trip, then why do we have to pay for it? That doest make any sense whatsoever either.

    I joined in August 2009 and at that time the focus was on the juice as well as a wealthy lifestyle.

    Another thing d didn’t realise was that many of the CD speakers were in Amway (only found out from you guys) but they all seemed to make it sound like all their success was in Monavie ‘and so that’s what basically assumed.

  627. Speak Your Truth permalink
    March 2, 2011 6:23 pm

    Yes and Yes to all your questions, it can seem complex but when you are so involved and too busy to think, it escapes you. But I can see you are starting to understand this.
    Thanks webelieved I think you are explaining it well, but this we know is confusing to anyone that would come in new because it is information over load is how it is sold and that is true in allot of ways, but they conviently leave out the important stuff and could be explained fairly easy to a new person, but that is what they don’t want, you are to follow marching orders because your upline knows best and they let you know by them going with you in the begining so you will watch and do what they say and do.
    Is this making any sense to you?

  628. Speak Your Truth permalink
    March 2, 2011 6:27 pm

    More Indoctrination! seriously have you ever listen to like 6 cd’s in one day, you become intoxicated on the information and feel like superman/women and nobody is going to say no to you. Rejection and doubt are the 2 biggest reason’s people quit, if they can keep you listening to cd’s “staying intoxicated and superhuman” none of the doubt or rejection bothers you.

  629. Dorothy permalink
    March 2, 2011 6:27 pm

    This commenter requested that her comments be removed from this site.

  630. Speak Your Truth permalink
    March 2, 2011 6:31 pm

    Sorry I meant to add to your what do you win? Pride and more indoctrination, unless your upline or someone has stated specifically they will give the winners something. We would give top 50’s away for the our teams that would bring the most people to majors. We won a couple top-guns so I am sure anyone that would read this would like 1 of our secrets.

  631. March 2, 2011 6:33 pm

    I’ve heard of those contests top prize was the Top 50 pack. That was around $260 and in TEAM everyone pressed that on the new people. I didn’t get it because of its price, and I figure that I’d eventually “get” the Top 50 pack throughall those millions of CD’s that they kept on pressing on us through the System.

  632. Dorothy permalink
    March 2, 2011 6:34 pm

    This commenter requested that her comments be removed from this site.

  633. Speak Your Truth permalink
    March 2, 2011 6:36 pm

    Glad to be of help, it is really hard sometimes to remember people in your position, for one we are no longer in any building mode and 2 it has been a long time. So THANK YOU, in helping us to try and explain in simple terms because we are soooo used to the cult language, that it is even difficult for us (at least me) to explain it any other way.So it is you that can help ask the questions so that we could help the new person understand what they are getting into.

  634. Speak Your Truth permalink
    March 2, 2011 6:39 pm

    you figured right, izzy
    I am glad you didn’t go futher in debt because they would switch out cd’s every year and call it a new top 50. It is a shame the way they drown people in debt!

  635. March 2, 2011 6:41 pm

    @ Speak, leeks, the emotional IMPACT those CD’s had once person was simply overwhelming!!! I’d feel freaking awesome after listening to even one or 2! Dorothy, they basically served as a “pick-me up” of sorts for those of us who are struggling in the business as I was. I Id feel encouraged once again to continuous my hunt for that elusive downline .lol

  636. Dorothy permalink
    March 2, 2011 6:42 pm

    This commenter requested that her comments be removed from this site.

  637. March 2, 2011 6:44 pm

    Argh, I’m drowning my posts with the typos from the tablet-to-keyboard software! Can’t wait for my new laptop to arrive :-p

  638. March 2, 2011 6:49 pm

    Dorothy, I got rid of my last boo of TE AM junk a few evenings ago, d suggest you do the same. It hurt, but it seemed as a relief after! it wasn’t an easy decision but the stuff is CRAP!

  639. Dorothy permalink
    March 2, 2011 6:50 pm

    This commenter requested that her comments be removed from this site.

  640. Speak Your Truth permalink
    March 2, 2011 6:51 pm

    You are right about the “special meetings” but there is more to this thought process.
    Not everyone is invited because they want you to do more, buy more and keep you in the gerbil wheel of the performance cult activity, this does a couple of things, your body and mind slowly becomes conditioned so that you will do more otherwise you would not be able to take it all at once.
    The specialized teaching sort-of the higher you get and the more of these meetings to go to they get harder and harder on you mental state because depending, if it is for new people, they will talk real nice, give you accolades (if you are out performing others) and maybe give some inspirational talk, they work the new person’s emotion’s with allot of force.
    The bigger pins and up, you could call these sessions “a beating” this is when the wolves come out at you with some full force to get you to comply and those that have “reported on people” let say someone said they had seen me in the hall talking to cross-line, then in that meeting they would be very forceful about the cross-lining issue. So what ever they thought the leaders weren’t complying to or “being naughty” that would be the lashing meeting. You could almost guess sometimes who they were berating. But again they only do this to those “they would consider the bigger leaders” It is humilation at it’s finest.

  641. Dorothy permalink
    March 2, 2011 6:56 pm

    This commenter requested that her comments be removed from this site.

  642. Speak Your Truth permalink
    March 2, 2011 6:58 pm

    Good reminder maybe we could get Amthrax to take that list after of course Will would be so kind to update it. He really has a good memory on that stuff.

  643. Dorothy permalink
    March 2, 2011 7:01 pm

    This commenter requested that her comments be removed from this site.

  644. Speak Your Truth permalink
    March 2, 2011 7:06 pm

    You reminded me, we had to earn and pay for our fun-in-the-sun trip(all except the room which you could say yes we did because it came from the profit-sharing that everybody on system was paying for, including us!) But I believe I was out at this time or going out, but they were promoting a year in advance the next one that they were gonna pay for something like 20 people that could win. Now this could be a brand new person that they I believe was going to draw out of a hat. Maybe someone can help me with these details. Anyway, how do you think that made all those including the leaders that were going along with the “winners” because the LEADERS that EARNED it still had to pay their way! It is discusting and makes me angry still.

  645. Speak Your Truth permalink
    March 2, 2011 7:10 pm

    I know this is hard to comprehend, but it is all to trap you into the vicious cycle and you are begining to understand. But you have to remember it is an unending cycle to trap you to keep you there, please don’t take that lightly.

  646. webelieved permalink
    March 2, 2011 7:18 pm

    All right on. A process to manipulate with promotions etc to get you to work harder. And that is what I did….
    Yep the cd contest was indoctrination at it’s finest…..omg i forgot. you couldn’t think anything except your mission for team… MAKING A DIFFERENCE…
    Yeap the volume based ones were to push volume to hit pins, and performance ones’s, 15 plan showers, to get you to do more activity…. Oh we did a lot of fun things at those, but of course our guru would come in to give you credibility since you told everyone how great he was, than all he has to do is talk great about you..Than the newbie would trust you.
    I have also seen a lot of false edification, when the same thing is said over and over to different people. Or used to make people think people are growing when they are not…….. So edification is used for coercion, and I can see that now…. Oh shame… Oh and if there is something going on in your team then that would be taken care of with a talk or something. ( they would of course find out what was needed in your team before they came) I went to them all because I didn’t want to disappoint my upline that cared so much for me . PUKE. We didn’t have any time for fun if we were going power player so it was like down time, but still working….

  647. March 2, 2011 7:20 pm

    When I wanted to do research when I first joined TEAM, I was told not to else I’d get overloaded with too much information. I was instructed to listen to started beginner packs to learn about the business step – by-step.I was told not to go by outside sources as they wouldn’t know anything; and so what better place to go to but to the source? They’d give on example that we don’t go to Waymart or someplace else to learn how to run a Mac Donald’s franchise. you go right to the source, which is what they dubbed “hamburger university” for all you information. Those guys are pretty sick in their wording to keep your only listening to TEAM crop and nothing outside.

  648. March 2, 2011 7:23 pm

    ARGH! I meant TEAM crap, not “crop” – dang software interpreters, lol

  649. webelieved permalink
    March 2, 2011 7:39 pm

    Izzy- yep following the leaders you actually end up going from the victim to the victimizer because we followed blindly and just repeated everything…. Really though if we need to listen to cds over and over why is that???? Could it be money, or maybe the business doesn’t work because it has a flaw, or they just want to use thought reform or all of the above…? It is sick how you have your thoughts controlled by it and just keep going. They get you to buy into the vision of Team…. not the product that way you will follow to any product company…. like first Quixtar/Amway, Mv and now I hear they are becoming a LIFE COACH company possibly????? anyone add more ???? P.s. I find this funny. … again, go to your pastor and ask him to reccommend some books, and for counsel, at least he is really trained, not someone that wants your pocketbook!!!

  650. webelieved