More Ex-TEAM Members Commenting About Their TEAM/Woodward Experiences
I’ve been noticing more ex-TEAM members posting on forums such as JuiceScam and Lazy Man’s MonaVie blog post.
There weren’t as many dissenting opinions on TEAM and Orrin Woodward when I started this blog a few years ago. That was right around the time when Orrin and his flock moved to MonaVie following his termination from Quixtar/Amway. I suspect that his promises of becoming one million strong and leading people to the promise land of milk, honey and MonaVie haven’t panned out for many. Instead of hiding away in shame, they have come out in full force to comment against Woodward and TEAM.
Here’s another good one from the discussion about the TEAM Tool Trunk:
# Ex-TEAM Says:
November 8th, 2010 at 8:01 pmI ‘was’ a TEAM member. I worked with Mark Crawford, Orrin Woodward and in my business was a policy coucil member (Claude Hamilton). This business is a 100% SCAM. LISTEN TO SOMEONE FROM THE INSIDE. I “invested” thousands of dollars on ‘tools’, seminars, gas, hotel meetings, major seminars, cell phone bills, promotions, monthly incentives to get around my ‘leaders’, miles on my car, tires for my car, fast food (diet programs to lose the weight), promo clothes, promo product, magazines, monthly seminars, books, etc. I reached a high level of success and was invited to attend small meetings with these ‘leaders’ often. This is a SCAM. Its 100% based on taking advantage of ‘relationships’. You will do ANYTHING to maintain the realtionship. Including spending ALL of your savings in the HOPE of this opportunity serving your Dreams. The ‘next person’ will help you achieve your Dreams, and the ‘NEXT’ person will help you achieve your dreams. It NEVER will end. Why do you think the top leaders can never stop??? Why do the top leaders do open meetings constantly??? Becasue they have nothing better to do? becasue they want to meet the people on their team? NO!!! Because they need to continue to MOTIVATE the ‘leaders’ on their team. This business has DESTROYED my family. I’m not a victom, but I’m speaking from A LOT of experience with this ‘opportunity’. People DO NOT realize how much work you ACTUALLY need to do, NIGHT AFTER NIGHT – 6 nights per week, thinking about it – 24 hrs /day to make it work. ITS NOT PART-TIME, ITS A LIFETIME decision and all of those people who disagree, has had NO success in this business. I’ve seen months where I’ve earned 9K dollars in this business… and before you say, there’s proof that it works… whoa, hold up! after 5 years… I accumulated over 90K in DEBT due to this ‘opportunity’. I easily invested 40k per year into building it. The leaders will tell you… there is NO OTHER ‘opportunity’ in the WORLD that will help you achieve your dreams. “If you quit, you will NEVER WIN”. “This opportunity is your ONLY chance of achieveing your dreams”… the REAL reason is because the ‘leaders’ have built their homes with thousands and thousands of people credit card debt. Claude Hamilton’s new home in Nova Scotia is a good example. Orrin’s yacht (bought from Billy Florence) is a good example. This business will only trap you into believing that you need to have a PhD in Self Improvement to advance, and thats because the ‘leaders’ NEED you to continue to purchase new cds/books, OR they don’t advance. The REAL business here is selling tools. NO MORE LIES.
This ex-TEAM member is right about the work involved to keep a “successful” MonaVie business up and running. You can’t simply sit back on the beaches of the world and let the business run itself. It’s good to see more and more people agreeing with the fact that building a business is like building sandcastles.
AMTHRAX 
Wow, that is about as close as it get to the facts about TEAM. Being apart of the TEAM business from 2000-2005 I got to learn from Orrin, Chris and Tim personally. While Tim and Chris may have “hearts of gold” lol or black diamonds, Orrin can convince anyone of his big lie. Until the IBO unplugs from the system either voluntarily or because the debt has drowned them, they will be slaves to the TEAM brainwashing machine. A quote I will never forget from Orrin ” A big lie is more easily believed than a small one.” Amthrax, I think that it takes time for the “victims” to speak openly about there experiences because of the mind control techniques used by the TEAM. If you indoctrinate yourself with 3 or more hours a day for a year or more of any propaganda and have “invested” thousands of dollars, you can expect the same amount of time coming to come back to reality and stop blaming yourself for failure. The underlying theme of all the meetings, audio, and video i have seen have been you are not good enough to build this business as you are. If you are not yet successful you need more books CD’s and meetings. A Trem I learned from Don and Chris Freeze is the Trem “Sunk Cost”. If you have lost thousands trying to get your TEAM off the ground Please don’t spend Thousands more tring to get that money back. “The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over expecting to get a different result” Right Orrin. 🙂
Listen EX-TEAM and everyone like you, it is not your fault, you are not a failure, you have just been taken advantage of by some of the most cleverly disguised, and unscrupulous con-men in the world. Shame on all of the TEAM leaders for promoting the lie when you know the truth and you have seen the hurt you have cause so many families. you know what happens in the life of your downline IBO’s. For you to go on stage and spout about how anyone can be like you shows by your actions that you are greedy and willing to make money directly from people you clam to care about and edify while they lose their families, homes, futures.
By the way GOD is not a tool for you to hide behind. Orrin remember Satan is the father of lies.
Hi all, I agree that recently there has been seemingly a slight increase in the number of “ex-TEAM” members who are “coming out” to speak (negatively) about TEAM.
However, how can you verify that they are NOT:
1. Fakes;
2. Failures; and
2. Fearmongers trying to damage the reputation of TEAM?
Because my experience with the system/leaders is truly quite different – I have a GOOD impression of TEAM and the leaders – so sometimes I find it sincerely hard to believe that these people are real ex-members.
There are also conflicting accounts within these defamers… for example, in the article above, the anonymous detractor said, “This business has DESTROYED my family. I’m not a victom (sic)”… so which is which, are you a victim because your family has been DESTROYED (are you sure?? in what way??) OR are you NOT a victim?
Hope you understand!
Rather interesting comments, let’s analyze them. You say that this takes too much work. Well, doesn’t anyithing worth building take work? Doesn’t a marriage take lifetime work, waht about raising kids? That takes work too. What about personal growth, doesn’t that also take work?
You say don’t do it, don’t invest time and money on this. So you must have something better to offer, what is it. The critic only speaks of opinion and doesn’t show results. I believe in always looking at the fruit in the tree, what’s yours? In God we trust, others must have data. Are you suggesting that people should instead remain enslaved to a 45 year plan of work and no freedom? Or perhaps are you suggesting that people should invest 100s of thousands in anconventiomal type business that offers no guarantees and with no proven duplicatable system. Or are you suggesting to live on unemployment ? Or??? If you are truly a leader, then you must offer solutions not only speak of what you think the problems are. Until you have a better plan than TEAM, might be wiser to keep opinions to yourslef.
Dan – Ask yourself the same questions, but instead of pointing them at these so-called critics…point them at the team leaders.
1. What results do the Team leaders have that you want?
The fact is, many leaders on Team’s stage talk a big game…but they are time poor and money poor. How else do you explain the fact that so-called ‘Big’ leaders leave the business? There are a number of Emerald (Triple 100) leaders that have either left or are hanging on by a thread.
2. What is the percentage of people that make it in Team? (That are truly job-optional)
You can only point to a handful that are making some income, but they are not time free. Tim Marks, Chris Brady, Bill Lewis, Orrin Woodward and maybe George Guzzardo are making good amounts of money, but they also know that without them out there creating hype at SUPEROPENS and the such…their camelot would come crashing down. Moreover, what about the rest of the so-called leaders on Teams stages? Word is that a number of Team’s triple 100s are either going bankrupt or having to go back and get jobs to make ends meet, because the money is not near as good as they let you on to believe. Plus, with the switch to Monavie…peoples’s businesses are dwindling faster than ever trying to peddle a $40 bottle of juice in this economy. WAKE UP!!!
I would much rather take $100k and put it into a franchise that I can build with my hard work and sweat vs. holding on to a pipe dream. And guess what…you can easily spend $50k over the course of 5 years in team purchasing tapes, cds, books and tickets that will get you no-where. I did it and have friends who did it. Luckily for us, we are all out of Team now and woke up. However, I would give anything to get those five years back and that $50k + back so that I could put that time and money into a ‘Conventional’ business (as you call it) that would give me a much better shot at some money vs. the scheme that Team has going on.
Look around at your next convention that you attend. Team leaders promote the hype to keep you engaged…but the chances of anyone making it is slim. THE NUMBERS DONT LIE and if you can point to a few thousand people in team that are making money and financially free…then I will LISTEN to what you have to say. But for the time being, Team has not showed any results. Orrin has been building Amway, Quixtar and now Monavie for something like 15 years and he can only count on one hand the names of those who are making some serious cash. The rest of the 100,000+ IBOs and Distributors that he has signed up over the years in his organization never made a dime and they burned thru them at an incredible rate, sucking them dry (financially) along the way. The ODDs of making it in Team is not in your favor. PERIOD.
Ex-Team, you spent $40,000 a year? I’ve been in Team for 10 years and I don’t think I’ve spent that much in all of that time. Maybe it is close, but your numbers show you are either a fool or a liar. And no, I’m not one of the big wigs, I don’t earn alot but it is significant. Tell you what, why not try to build your business without utilizing the tools, seminars, opens, or mentorship and see how you do. If the results are the same we know where the problem lies……..you. Everyone is under the impression this business has magic attached to it, well, it does if you apply yourself in the correct manner. This much I know for a fact, I did spent $18,000 per month in my professional business with the overhead I had, TEAM, while has not set me free yet,has enabled me to reduce my overhead by about $17,000 because of what I’ve learned throught the system. This is a serious and legit business model, but you have to learn how to play by the rules of this type of business model or it will not work.
Joshua- you are absolutely correct in your thinking…….for someone on the left side of the quadrant. $40 for a bottle of juice has nothing to do with our business, the reason why some businesses are drying up is the same reason why many businesses are drying up…….fear. Simple fear. My conventional business which should be hurting immensly in this economy is thriving. Why? Am I much better than Iwas a few years ago? Nope. It’s simply because of the applications I have utilized in the TEAM training. Two years ago I did about $60,000 in business, last year about $65,000, this year will total about $ 300,000. My only explanation is due to relationships I have forged all based on TEAM training.
Dave-
….and you can honestly say that 100% of your profits and earnings came from legal claims surrounding your products?
Come on Dave, be real! Being in Team for 10 years you know how much it costs if you are all in. Way more than 4 grand a year. Add up the money spent on product, opens, monthly seminars, major conventions, tools, system, travel costs, etc… There is no magic attached to the business is right! Like Joshua said, point to a few thousand people that are job optional or I no listen. If you are still on the left hand side of the quadrant after 10 years with Team maybe its time to move on. You can get all the motivation and training you need from a library for free. Or Orrin’s blog for that matter!
That’s right Dave! 10 years in the biz and you’re still on board? Funny how you call out the liars and fools here.
So,… on to the next subject/questions here…..From your statement here,
\
Dave says-
“Everyone is under the impression this business has magic attached to it, well, it does if you apply yourself in the correct manner.”
By god, it must be true….if you could explain how you worked the magic working your way up through the different levels starting at STAR that would be great!?
Or, did Orrin/Mona Vie award you a certain level right off the bat without doing any of the work coming over from Quixtar?
WALLA! There’s your MAGIC!!!!
OK….on to the next questions and why am I not surprised that there hasn’t been any kind of answer here?
If you were awarded a certain level of Mona Vie when brought over from Quixtar, what gives you the right to say, the reason why people are quitting is because they’re not trying hard enough? How do you top pins know this when you haven’t even gone through the different levels yourself and done the work???
Or…is this just an opinion that one should just keep to himself?
Well, the group of so called hero’s are leaving dodge and packing up after they have burned about every bridge in town. They need to find another church to scam as well.
Lets face it. They were found guilty of breaking the law. They lost the battle. The judge heard their case and told them they had to pay. They appealed and lost again. Read if for yourself.
The question of if they are ethical is not debatable. They broke the law and lied to their Teams. They were found guilty. Not a good thing for people that claim to be living as Christian leaders. They have disgraced themselves and their families.
Dave, please read ex-Team’s comments again. He is talking about more expenses than the $4000 per year of books/seminars and cds that you are referring to. He is counting ALL expenses, like most business people do. (the same type of expenses that you probably deduct on your taxes):
I “invested” thousands of dollars on ‘tools’, seminars, gas, hotel meetings, major seminars, cell phone bills, promotions, monthly incentives to get around my ‘leaders’, miles on my car, tires for my car, fast food (diet programs to lose the weight), promo clothes, promo product, magazines, monthly seminars, books, etc. I reached a high level of success and was invited to attend small meetings with these ‘leaders’ often.
BTW, if you simply drive 2000 miles per month to build the business, that is at least a $12,000 expense for the year. Now add your $4000 in bsms. Hotels, products you never would have purchased, etc. And if you are a leader, more tools, more seminars, more product, more leadership meetings.
It adds up quickly.
@disgusted – Orrin recently tweeted that he’s returning to Florida after a week in Michigan. Does that mean he’s still showing the plan in the same towns TEAM is/was in, or is he moving to other cities in the state? Can you elaborate with more details about the move out of Dodge?
can anyone show me a business without risks?
Amway and Mona Vie are touted as no risk businesses by certain leaders.
I honestly think Wil has come to the realization that there’s something behind the “biz” and is in complete denial about it.
It’s OK Wil, baby steps to the truth. As you read more, the truth unfolds.
Ouch. I mean big ouch. I am from Halifax, and I was on Hamiliton’s team – team Kaizen and their goofy yellow towel-flags they came up with for five bucks a piece just to yell and swing over your head to show that Kaizen Power at the conventions!! LOL! Bloody idiot. The Hamilitons actually have a $2 million home in Bedford that they built, and they showed it to myself, my upline, and about three other ladies – well, just Lana, it was a “ladies’ thing” to help with dream-building. Armed with a cup of Tim Horton’s, a pen, and scribbler, I came thinking it was going to be a stragedy meeting, but Lana instead showed us around the house, it was just a structure, everything was getting built, the rooms laid out, just the walls needed to be inserted and then furnished. I remember so clearly as she was talking about getting all these “richy” things that it was a waste of money and why is she flaunting this so much? I arrived home, disappointed, knowing that I didn’t have the ability that the Hamilitons had to get this far, so who were they to rub it in our faces? I was mad.
@Dan, I’m well-aware of this 45-year plan bullsh*t. Problem is, TEAM teaches its followers not to accept a more mundane, modest lifestyle and get FIRED UP at luxury and fame and blahblahblah. Sorry, mate, but that’s highly unethical, playing on the emotions of desperate people trying to get out of debt by taking on a risky and expensive endeavour. FEW make it to the top, only few.
@Wil, no business is without risk, however, one must use their common sense. Those TEAM seminars are all about selling TEAM materials and getting as many people into TEAM and Monavie as possible. They’re hyped-up on emotionalism – from cheering to stage-crossing to emotional stories complete with laughter and tears.
Any business to tells you that you have to sacrifice even your own family, go into debt to be successful, and basically pressure you into staying in longer than even careful decisions that you and your spouse make (just in case you don’t make it get out a certain time, move on, etc) is HIGHLY UNETHICAL. I was spending more on TEAM tools than I actually realised.
Use common sense, people!
Well of course you didn’t succeed… Look at your attitude, how everything you’re saying is just negative… How are you expecting to get great results when you are constantly zone-ing in on the negative things. It’s not a scam unless you make it one.
The problem is, most of you are looking at this as what pain it causes you to suffer, or what YOU get out of it. Yet you think it’s selfish what TEAM leaders are doing… don’t be so blind, if you’re not going to do TEAM that ABSOLUTELY FINE, That’s GREAT even… but only if you choose to do something with your life that effects the lives of even more people, in a greater way, than you can with team. For those who are researching TEAM… Don’t even worry about whether team is a scam or not, because it’s not, Remember to qualify your sources. Learn from the successful how to be successful, not from those complaining about others being successful… you won’t get much but selfish nonsense out of them.
Hmm.. I should also state, as an answer to the original posters question, The reason why the top leaders continue to build (and not all of them do, in fact I’ve spoken to some that don’t) is because they want to change lives. They’re on a mission to help save this world from it’s self, almost everyone at one point or another has complained about the world we live in… at least they are doing something about it. And so too am I, even if it’s not through TEAM. And even though my ventures are not threw TEAM, I will still support them and fight for them, because of their vision and heart being a lot better and bigger than anything else I’ve seen.
Ryan, you really have to be careful with these hyped-up games the marketers put out. This is really serious. TEAM is a cult, through and through, I’d advise you to read this link and see what’s actually going on. http://www.howcultswork.com/
Can i ask you a question Izzy?
The name cult is condescending by nature, but honestly, what is so wrong about a cult?
I appreciate your concern for people in trying to prevent them from making mistakes. However, By those definitions described on that website, this website we are on now could, by certain means, be considered a cult. With the manipulative discussions and words and what not. Technically you are trying to manipulate me out of taking my own chances and risks at life by your concern over me and other people about to take a leap towards their hopes and dreams.
I do respect your opinion and concern. However I have already had success in many fields as well as finances because of the information and wisdom I have gained throughout life and though these ‘cults’ of Religion and Business. You see, cults aren’t a bad thing unless they’re focus is intended towards a bad thing. TV, Radio, Books, Websites, Friends, and yourself… all have a toll on the way you think and the habits you develop… I have simply chosen which ones to be around, and if the ones I like to be around because of their great attitudes and level of thinking is considered a cult, then I am proud to be a part of it…
Also Izzy, I do not mean to hurt anyone here or make and enemies… but look at this message posted near the top of this board.
“It’s good to see more and more people agreeing with the fact that building a business is like building sandcastles.”
What kind of message is this? Does this speak the words of hope or possibility. Is this uplifting or make you feel Good? Or does it just sound like “life sucks” and “don’t try to do anything great with your life, because it will never work” or even “you shouldn’t try to create your own wealth, someone needs to hand it to you, it’s the only secure way”. But then again, if someone owns a biz you have a job at, they created a biz… didn’t they? and they did it so well they also help create your wealth too! So are these big rich people bad? of course not and we all know that.
If you don’t mind to invest in yourself some time by thinking… Think about what this website is about, and if it is leading you towards what you want out of life, and if these messages they post are helping you get there. And if it’s the case that you don’t want anything out of life, maybe this is the reason why.
My guess is you want to have an impact on peoples lives, my guess is that you’re actually a great person and the only reason you are here is to save people from pain that they might have to undergo if they invest into certain MML businesses. My guess is that if i asked you if you had a lot of money, one of the first things you would say you would do with it is help others, family or friends in need. In fact by the way that you stated your last message, my guess is you even wish to become friends with me and have an impact on me.
We aren’t so different, but what is it worth to you to continue to hear these negative messages about building businesses and trying to excel at life? Sure maybe MML isn’t for you, in fact I myself don’t even build MML… but if I may, I would kindly like to suggest finding something you ARE passionate about, and using it to benefit you and this world you live in.
What do I do? I chase my Purpose with a Passion, and my Passions with a Purpose. I have never felt more alive and happy in my life. Do you feel alive, happy, exhilarated, like you were born to do the things you are doing right now with your life? I do, and I wish that everyone could get the chance to feel like this instead of being kicked down by those who gave up or are just plain selfish and wish nothing for others. I don’t believe this describes you, but I do believe that there are better ways to accomplish what you want in your life and what you want for others, than what you are doing now.
The greatest feeling in the world is experiencing another person thanking you for changing their life. At these moments nothing you’ve ever suffered even matters anymore. If you have felt this, you will understand why I am here. I honestly don’t even look at problems with any sort of negative emotion anymore, I just search for the greatness and were I can grow… because I don’t have time to fall backwards, i’ve got lives to save and worlds to change.
Good luck and God Bless, Izzy.
Hope you shoot for something more worth your life than joining forces with a group that rips out peoples hope and stomps on it with negativity… how is anyone supposed to accomplish anything great if they only listened people telling them not to try? Here lies the self destructive cycle in this cults belief system… maybe it’s time to break away from this level of thinking, because you and I can both see you are worth much more than this.
@Ryan – Building an MLM business is very much like building sandcastles. It’s been mathematically proven that the success rate for people in MLMs is very low. Some people will succeed, yes, but most will fail.
This does not mean, however, that all businesses are like sandcastles. Clearly, there are many other opportunities out there that are better deals than MLM (esp. those tied to Systems with tools and function expenses). The purpose of this blog isn’t to tell you what to do outside of MLM, it’s to tell you the perils and pitfalls of going “all-in” with an MLM.
This commenter requested that her comments be removed from this site.
haha i love how you put ‘jobless’ I’ll just let you dwell in your own negativity and assumptions. It does me no good otherwise.
Amthrax, i beg to differ, i believe this site is a little bit more than just trying to lead people away from going all in on an MLM… take for example your number 1 thread… it’s merely a bashing against a man named Dean, whom i have never even heard of before. (or rather trying to find out who the two people are that are defending him) This has barely anything to do with what you just stated other than, from what it sounds like, there are a bunch of people that are jealous of him for his successes for ‘going all in’… maybe i’m wrong though. Maybe you’re trying to change lives and direct people on the right path… but if so, why do it with such an abundant amount of negativity surrounding nearly every subject i’ve ever read on this site over the years that it’s been up. But to be fair I have truly not read that much, only seen you pop up once in a while on google and so on.
@Ryan, I was in TEAM for 7 months. It feels like I’ve been financially raped, it nearly cost me my marriage. I was not making any money all that time, and I tried as best as I could. My upline pushed me to stay or else I’ll lose my success. I maxed out all of my credit and still she had the balls to try to tell me to stay.
Ryan, I understand you’re not trying to making enemies, you’re not insulting, and I appreciate it. But I cannot help but know what I went through, and it’s devastating. But it’s like you go to these meetings and everyone acts the same, thinks the same, dresses the same, it’s spooky. Everyone’s so happy and excited there, yet I do know people leave because they’re paying out more than what they’re taking in.
When I left, I was so stressed out that I made myself sick. I felt so much guilt and shame for what I put my family through. I also beat myself up for not trying hard enough and for not getting any recruits. I had so many conflicting feelings. I still feel like I’m on a emotional rollercoaster, but I do know I made the right decision in leaving. I’m just barely starting to pay down the principle of my debt.
Only a few people make it to the top, most of us either barely make a few dollars or don’t make any at all. That’s how it goes with MLMs. It’s a dog-eat-dog world there. TEAM’s fierce motivation tactics either motivate and pushes the go-getters to the top and drive the more timid and less financially stable to the ground. There’s no middle ground for those of us who haven’t got the salesman personality.
I mean no disrespect, Ryan, just stating my experience.
This commenter requested that her comments be removed from this site.
This commenter requested that her comments be removed from this site.
Aurora, i think you have me wrong, my object is not to tear peoples hopes and spirits apart… unlike what this site is all about. I would not tear Izzy apart by telling her she didn’t push hard enough or crap like that, that’s just cruel. BTW: I’m not jobless, i have a job and i am very passionate about it. I’ve used the things I’ve learned from inside of team to create my own wealth by other means. I am a Musician as it is stated. However if i so chose to stop writing music and become ‘jobless’ i would not be effected financially, This is why i am job FREE. not bound by a job.
And Izzy, I am sorry you had to suffer through all of that… but know that that doesn’t happen to every person that joins, and you have already stated that you know that and I appreciate you for doing that. But instead of just being upset about it and continuing to stir those negative emotions that are caused by the industry by coming here and associating with some, not so happy people. Instead of focusing on those hardships and making yourself even more venerable to the pain that you once had through enduring the Team. Try to find what good has come out of it for you, what you’ve learned, where you can go now with your life now that you are capable and no longer bound by the business. Instead of just conjuring more bad feelings about it… no? is this not a bad idea? i can guarantee it will help remove any form of emotional depression that you may have. At least, better than just dwelling on it.
Now aurora is going to step in and tell you not to listen to me saying “he’s just trying to get your hopes up! don’t listen to him! don’t try to find the good that came out of your experience and what you have learned!” … lol okay maybe not, maybe that’s a little over the top =P But you understand what I am saying.
For me personally, I let people make their own mistakes and learn from it… now why would i do that instead of trying to save them? well i have many times tried to do just that, but you as well as i know they don’t always listen. They will do what their emotions tell them to do, if they aren’t aware of their emotions. And even sometimes when they are aware.
So why would i just let them do something and fail? Because it creates self growth, it makes people stronger. I want what is best for people, and for people, it is best for them to grow. and overcoming obstacles or learning from their failures is the greatest way to grow in my experiences.
If you truly believe that your time was wasted in joining Team, then it was just that, a waist of time. But if you find why it was in your life (everything happens for a reason) then you will find that it wasn’t a waist of time, and that you appreciate the struggles you had to go through because of it. I personally am grateful for all the crap i had to go through in my life, and i am also grateful to team for teaching me wisdom and a greater sense of belief in myself and for changing my life and financial situation in a great way, and for encouraging me to chase my dreams. As you can see, i defend TEAM because i want other people to exceed and win, just as i did BECAUSE of them. but if you only take the bad out of things and not the good… then you’ll never really win, you’ll just get the bad.
Well, I’ve said my piece. My credit is completely ruined now, I have virtually zero chance of improving my rating. I will *NOT* do MLM again. That’s all I have to say.
I believe things will come around for you Izzy, just take some time and recoup. Just try to remember to look for the positives… if you can. I can assure you it will help a lot. =)
Good luck to you Izzy, and God bless.
Mmmm? Oh ya, thanks mate….
*turns back to my computer and slurps on some really delicious tea that I got for very cheap on sale one day…*
Nice n’ relaxing, no stress, no biz meetings, no taking anxiety attacks while holding my BlackBerry in one hand and contact list in the other hand.
*Big slurp*
Mr. Seewald-
Stop trying to make your last ditch effort in saving your business here. It’s actually helped people see the truth, and facts surrounding the biz that you are in absolute denial about. There’s plenty of facts and truth here and other sites for one to read up on. If you’re not sure what I’m talking about, I will be glad to show you. How can you even try and make an attempt to cover up all the lies, deception, and legal problems surrounding the business here?
Spreading illegal health claims, and testimonies down to team members, all to make a very, shallow buck. Mona Vie is nothing but fruit juice and there’s no way in hell you’ve spread the juice all on 100% legal claims. This is why they’ve been slapped once already by the FDA.
Tell me you’ve kept track of everyone’s “plan showing” and how they’ve spread the juice in order for you to become “job free”?
xD haha!! Nice Izzy. Dang… now i’m thirsty. and yeah i know how those calls are, i remember those. Although I’m really confidant in my self now so, making calls is really no big deal anymore… i used to have an anxiety attack over calling to order pizza! lol
So what are you doing now Izzy? if you don’t mind me asking. I mean with your life and for a job and such.
Well, first off, I make my own professional-style pizza – pizza stone and everything, tastes quite lovely, actually, loaded with fresh veggies and cheese, sometimes meats, nice bit of herbs/spices, soft crust, oh ya, baby! *has a foodgasm*
I’m on welfare for 3 disabilities (and believe me, I looked for work and attended employment workshops to no avail) Hubby works part-time as a school crossing guards. We have 2 lovely children in elementary school. We do many, many things – outdoor things – as a family, including winter barbeques, skating, walking in the woods, taking pictures, and not attending TEAM meetings.
I’m trying my hand at writing, and researching frugal living (living close to Mother Nature) That means no autoships of snake oil, paying off my debt, learning to skin small animals for food and perhaps drawstring bags and food.
Sometimes the simple things in life brings out the most pleasure 🙂 And if I dare make a health claim, I will say eat plenty of fruits and vegetables, get plenty of fresh air, and exercise every day, I hardly think Mother Nature will sue me for this health claim! 😀
Twitch, it seems that you’ve not really read much of my posts. I for one don’t indulge myself in selling juice or building TEAM. Although i think people should be able to say what they feel is true… I mean, if someone gets cured of cancer or something like that, it doesn’t hurt for them to tell the reason why they believe it happened… it’s really not right for the FDA to stop people from the freedom of speech, ideas, or beliefs.
I have had success through other means than MLM, but the concepts and principles that the TEAM teaches are real and even more helpful than what you do here by convincing people to not even get involved to see those principals and truths.
So your assumption that i am trying to save my business her is false, i’m trying to save those who want a shot at success and happiness from not allowing themselves to take a risk because of the things you say here. because it is not I who is in denial.
You can talk bad about product all you want, it doesn’t offend me any, because the true issue here is people. Failing is OKAY!! Get over it already, move on with your life. And stop insulting people for wanting others to succeed. I have already said much more on this subject in my other posts. I’m not trying to change the facts (whether they are true or not, or if they were true a long time ago but since have been changed their ways) i’m simply trying to allow you to see a different perception on life… because changing how i view life has created my emotional, spiritual, relationship, and financial wealth.
haha, xD i’m pretty sure Mother nature is gunna sue you. She’s quite wealthy in leaves and is gunna buy a really good lawyer. you better take your claim back!
holy crap that pizza sounds delicious, now i’m thirsty AND Hungry.
That’s really awesome, sounds like you are really close in tune with nature. There really is a bit of magic and sparkle in it. Have you ever been to Colorado? The mountains are AMAZING!
Nerp, jes’ good ol’ Nova Scotia here! 🙂
oh yes that’s right, you’re from Canada, i should have remembered that from your previous posts… sorry about that. ^^;
This commenter requested that her comments be removed from this site.
Seewald says-
“Although i think people should be able to say what they feel is true… I mean, if someone gets cured of cancer or something like that, it doesn’t hurt for them to tell the reason why they believe it happened… it’s really not right for the FDA to stop people from the freedom of speech, ideas, or beliefs.”
…..this statement in itself proves to all of us, you are making profits/bonuses through illegal claims and testimonies for YOURSELF to become “job free”. Your selfish ways to help spread the deception your biz lies on is quite clear and it’s identical to what happened in my case. Beating around the bush around the truth is quite the norm for Teamers and Orrin’s empire.
This is why I left sir.
I wish the FTC and American Gov’t would launch a full investigation into the Woodward, Brady, & Dickie trio as well as the TEAM organisation. It’s really not fair that TEAM makes it sound so easy when it’s not easy. It’s not fair that our emotions are used to keep us going (in the meetings) instead of our intellect. It’s not fair that we were discouraged from doing research because of “the negativity that may be out there” type thing.
And to be really practical, fruit juice doesn’t cure cancer. Cancer is a stubborn, complex disease that requires rigourious medical intervention in order to bring it into remission, then in some cases, a cure. Glucosamine doesn’t always help with joint pain, either. A wikipedia article even questions glucosamine as a main treatment, as there’s really no proven studies on it.
You can all pick Fights with me all you want. It doesn’t really tare at my emotions at all. But i can see it does with yours.
Izzy, haha, I was just putting an example out there… i dono if anyone ever said it cured cancer. But yeah some people do tell you it’s easy in the team, my personal team told me it was going to be tough. lol. I guess it depends a lot on who you’re under and who you’re listening to. But personally i only attend meetings and the like for the wisdom i can gain.
My main concern here is apparently not what I made you to believe.
Look at how much work and research Amthrax puts into this place, how much you guys put in. It’s astonishing. I mean, you guys keep up on all the leaders blogs and report back to here frequently. You guys put time and thought into your posts. What I am saying is you guys are good at what you do. You guys are fully capable of great things and of great impact. Especially you Amthrax. Amdroid, you’re pretty cool too… your posts and responses are very well thought out and you’re not unwilling to listen and think. And to answer your question, yes, i once was a hypocrite… but i no longer gossip, so i am no longer a hypocrite.
Aurora, man! are you Fierce. you sure know how to throw some punches. … Of course no one really likes to get punched in the face, lol ^^; . But what i’m saying is you’ve got fire, passion, you are definitely set on your ways and you will not bow to any man.
Joecool, we haven’t talked much… but I read a little about you. You left an MLM because one of your ‘leaders’ told you to basically drop your wife. Family comes before business, any one that suggest anything of the opposite nature is sick disgusting! I give you mad props for picking up your bags and leaving. On that note though, what one man in the biz says to you doesn’t necessarily speaks for the whole businesses ideals… but you can be assured I would have never asked anything from him again. That guy didn’t deserve you in his business anyhow.
The nature of MLMs isn’t evil. Yes there are some evil people who have been involved… but that goes true with everything. MLMs can potentially be a great business model.And many of its concepts are great for any business really. MLMs HAS made some people free and has brought great things to peoples lives.
I’m not really in any form of argument with you guys, i’m just trying to let you understand that you are capable of something WAY more productive.
And I know you’re not just going to have a huge change of mind because of something some random stranger came in and said… some stranger that happens to sound like any other person that has ever come here that is not on your side or wanting to take down MLMs.
However i’m probably one of the only people to ever come here and post my real name… I am not a coward. What I say has true meaning. I’m not trying to shoot you down or tell you all that what you have been doing here is stupid or has been a complete waist of time. But what i am saying is i believe you are ALL capable of something more.
Just something to end with. Since a lot of you are moral and good standing people. Whether you believe in God or not. Just imagine this scenario. You have died and gone to heaven, God says to you “Good job my faithful servant.” “You have destroyed the MLMs that have been spreading truth about me and Christianity, putting hope back into peoples lives, made many people become happier and more emotionally self controlled, built up the characters of (not all but) many. and have allowed many to grow and become better with people, treat the spouses more purely, and spend more quality time with their children… all at the possible risk/cost of a weakened finances, but also many times a heightened finances as well.”
Now of course that sounds ridiculous, God would never commend you for ruining something that was good, holy, and helpful to this world and the people in it. And of course not all MLM’s do that… but Team does, and I am sure some others might too. But you know from what i just said that, this really isn’t that great of a cause… this really isn’t that morally uplifting for the world… And that you are all capable of so much more. Do something awesome with your lives, don’t just die with nothing really great accomplished because you spent your whole life trying to tear something down that caused you some grief, but also caused many others great happiness.
You are all capable of so much more.
Actually, everyone calls me Izzy in real life 🙂
Haha Sorry Izzy~ … Izzy isn’t a coward either!! 😛
I think everyone has their rights if they want to reveal their true names or not, I only give my commonly-used name on a public forum. It’s not necessarily about cowardice. Some of us have been threatened by their former TEAM mates, and that’s quite normal for anyone leaving an organisation that depends on movitvation, and also cults. The way TEAM is set up, it’s almost stepping into a spiritual atmosphere, many TEAM members are very fanatic in thier beleifs. Ain’t saying that EVERYONE is like that, just that many people are, from what I witnessed. I’ve had my upline correct me on my “terminology” telling me I’m not going to work, I”m going to a business meeting, that sort of thing. She did that constantly. Even after I left TEAM she told me to listen to the CDs and read the book. Nope. No thanks it was too painful for me.
In MLMs only a few people succeed, The lower guys don’t succeed, or just remain as customers of the products. For example in Melaleuca I only purchase household necessities for about a hundred bucks per month. I”m not selling the stuff. I’m not being pressured into becomeing a “Marketing Executive” either. That’s how it should be. But my point is that TEAM is pushing everyone to go to meetings and listen to CDs and all that and what if we don’t want to? We shouldn’t have to be subjected to pressure. Why couldn’t I just be satisfied in just drinking the juice, if I wanted to? I cut back my autoship only to be met with strong disapproval from my upline. That is pressure. Most MLMs only move ahead with pressure tactics, that’s not ethical. If I don’t want to buy something, or go to a meeting, I shouldn’t have to. And furthermore, I’m staying WITHIN my budget as opposed to creeping over and buying tools. I should be allowed to stay WITHIN my budget.
Anyway, I’m ranting again, LOL. But I want to say that we are individuals, we do have our reasons for why we do things, and we should be free to do what we want with our lives. We all have the right to speak out, as well.
Agreed. My group never pressured me, nor have i personally witnessed anyone being pressured like that, it’s a shame that they did that to you. I guess it depends a lot on who you get involved with, not necessarily MLMs as a whole… huh?
I will grudgingly agree there there are exceptions to each rule/case. Just like in Nazi Germany, there were German SS soldiers who helped Jews to escape, others may have looked away. Oscar Shindler was another good guy, helping save about 2,000 Jews from extermination under the guise of wanting workers for his ammunitions business.
=) Right~ So our real problem here is not with MLMs, it’s with people. Of course we shouldn’t try to hurt or attack people… but MLMs are made up of people, so it’s really not nice to try to destroy that either. Both of those options are kind of evil. So what can we do to solve the true problem here? Change people. or just ignore it. but that doesn’t’ really SOLVE it, it just removes you from the playing field. Team tries to change the way people think, obviously they aren’t 100% successful, and even the leaders have their faults… What will you do? (sorry for being so serious)
You must agree that TEAM expenses can creep up on you, right? especially for someone who is low-income?
Yep this is true. Agreed =) But, i think the wisdom i’ve gained through it all out ways the expenses. But yes, you are absolutely correct.
This commenter requested that her comments be removed from this site.
^^; wrong yet again Aurora.
@Ryan – I’m now moderating your comments. Stay on topic and don’t post long-winded, off-topic comments.
Sure thing mate… But i don’t have any negative TEAM experiences… so i can’t really post anything on this topic. Other than the conversation i had with Izzy, which went pretty well.
Thanks for reading them though Amthrax. =)
“I wish the FTC and American Gov’t would launch a full investigation into the Woodward, Brady, & Dickie trio as well as the TEAM organisation. ”
The trio appears to have fallen apart, I am not sure how far. The Dickie’s appear to be out and doing other things.
The only thing I notice is, that the Dickie’s didn’t get sued, and they didn’t get out of town, like the cowards.
I sure would have liked to be a fly on the wall when that happened!
Disgusted – you are right, the Dickey’s did not get sued and they did not leave town as they had nothing to run from. I believe it has been over a year since they were associated in any way with team. just goes to show how everyone eventually leaves the closer they get to Orrin and Chris. Orrin Woodward can’t keep any friends if his life depended on it….they all wake up and realize that he only uses people for his personal gain.
It’s under a year still, because in the middle of last year Robert Dickie was still on the BBB.org website, but I just checked and some Hallstrand fella took his place. I wonder if there’s any contact between the Woodwards and Rev Dickie?
This commenter requested that her comments be removed from this site.
There are so many flaws with the Team/MonaVie business model. It does not surprise me one bit that people are leaving Team and Orrin Woodward. I truly feel that the Team/MonaVie business does more harm in people’s lives than good. Too many people are losing money and not making any financial gains as mentioned in the 2-5 year plan. I have a friend who calculated that he spent over $70,000 in tools, tickets and books (along with overpriced Q and MonaVie juice) over the years and his family never reached any significant income levels.
Team led them to believe that it was ‘his fault’ for not making money. The system taught him to feel bad about himself as if he was the reason his business was not growing and that he was not following the system closely enough. (Nevermind the fact that it seems to be the system that is broken as less than %1 of the people that sign up in team ever make any money.)
So, my friend added up all of his receipts over the past 7 years and realizes that he spent over 70K with zero profit coming back to him, and all the while he blamed himself as his upline told him he wasn’t following the system closely enough. He needed to listen to more CDs, show more plans etc. WHICH, HE DID!! He finally woke up and realized that he did EVERYTHING the system told him to do and yet he still didn’t attain any growth with his business and the same is true for everyone in his team.
I read comments from ‘Pro’ Team people defending Orrin and defending Team by blasting individuals who quit as being ‘Negative, Quitters, Giving up on their Dream, Not meant to be a Leader, Didn’t put the work in to achieve freedom etc.’ They need to stop and ask themselves two simple questions: How long have I been in the business? and How much money am I making? If the business is indeed a two to five year plan, then ask yourself why you are not making any money after being involved for that long or longer. Is it really because you are not working the business hard enough!?! That is complete non-sense.
Think About It…Orrin Woodward and the Team system asks you to do the following to reach success:
1) Get on system (Book of the month, CDs of the Week 2) Attend Monthly Seminars 3)Attend Leadership Conventions 4) Attend all Open Meetings 5) Show 15 plans a month to new prospects 6) and buy X amount of product from MonaVie etc.)
What else am I missing from this list?
The point is, my friend did this for 7 years faithfully. Made cold contacts religiously. Showed the plan, followed thru and repeated the process and all he did was waste money and lost time that he could have spent with his kids and wife. He DID THE WORK and IT DID NOT WORK!! If people are honest with themselves, 99.5% of the people involved with Team or MonaVie will realize their experience is similar…spending their time and money following the so-called system (Path to Freedom), yet never reaching any success. Most will keep holding on though as they are taught to believe if they WORK A LITTLE HARDER then they will have the results. They beat themselves up mentally for not making it work, when the entire time they were indeed putting in the hours, investing the money, and following the system. It is sad that they are holding on to a ‘False Dream’ that Orrin has sold them, as they will never reach it. People aren’t being lazy that stay in for 7 years. Sure you get some that sign up and never really get started, however, the people that are sold on the hype, the dream and false hope, follow the system closely, and put in an HONEST effort, however, they were chasing down a dream in a broken vehicle as the business is flawed and simply does not work!!
I am tired of watching people spend thousands of dollars and time away from their families while being mislead by Orrin Woodward, Chris Brady and other Team Leaders who are promoting this as a viable business opportunity. If you are currently an independent business owner (IBO) on Team / MonaVie and hoping for a better life, honestly ask yourself “How is it GOING?” If you pull the blinders off you will see how much time/money and effort you are putting in and any businessman should be able to instantly see that the “RESULTS ARE NOT WORTH THE INVESTMENT!!”
You will make your life better by spending more quality time with your spouse, mentoring your kids, reading leadership books by REAL leaders that you can pick up at Barnes and Nobles and Borders for way less the cost than what team is charging vs. following Orrin and his plan for success. His plan will suck you dry mentally, emotionally, monetarily, and your relationships will suffer with your family due to neglect and putting too much energy into a vehicle that has broke down!
Sounds like a splitting image of Amway and WWDB with a different product.
Exactly, William!
@Joe cool: no, its worse, much worse. Someones Integrity is on the line.
In Team, some strongly encourage people to reach new pin levels in MV.
Before I go into any detail about this, let me just say that this was my view after being in it for a few years, and yes, reaching some mighty pin levels in MV. I am not writing any of this because I am a bitter angry person who got burned. I left because I just could not, at any cost, compromise my own integrity anymore. As I moved up, I became part of the leadership crowd. I was able to see firsthand some true colors in people I had once admired. I thank God for my discernment. This is my view. If yours is different, you have that right.
The Skinny on The power player plan: Buy the top 50 pack $$$ be on the power player system $$ (more cd’s etc), be on SOT (tickets to seminar auto ship $$ even more if you have a spouse), go to every Tuesday meeting $$, keep in mind that you will need to have 2 binary legs to achieve this. Team is very adamant about not starting another leg unless one has helped achieve at least 10 deep on your first leg. Oh yeah, if one breaks this golden rule, surely, your upline will have a chat with you to make sure you understand why Team builds the way they do. Also, one needs to have a certain number of people on the “system” (books and CD”s) and on the SOT.
OK folks…do some math here..yeah..it’s not just about showing the plan 15 X a month like they tell you one does have to convince the new people to spend more and more…oh, did I forget to mention they also need to purchase the juice?
Well, let me also say that some may constantly tell you,” this is the building block of the business. If one does all of this, you will reach you goals and dreams. Not just material wealth but wisdom and health! If one is doing all of the steps and still not cutting cutting it..sorry dude, obviously you have personal walls you need to break down and work at it because God will only give you what you can ‘ up…good cycle to keep them working… the reality is: not too many get in to build a business, some just wanna drink the juice and that makes you dreams and goals harder to attain on the team plan…
False edification is another way. The party of they will buy the bottom guy a pin level for two reasons; to get him to go across stage so hundreds will cheer him on as well as help themselves to a new level. So the new guys walk across the stage with the lights flashing and music and everyone is cheering for their team. The rush that new guy feels is amazing. Everyone has done it, everyone knows the feeling. So get them all stoked up on some false edification and keep encouraging him by stroking their ego because it works.. Like a dog back to his vomit…
I feel certain the stretch and secure training, constitutes a pyramid scheme…ehmmm. Maybe that is why MV became obstinate about having to sign a waiver to let others place HUGE orders through yout number. Perhaps that is why MV came out with some new rules last year on keeping track of retail. I wonder if you earn commissions from MV with no retail sales, that would look fishy on your taxes..ehmmm… ooops, off on a tangent…
It’s all in the head people. And the guy at the top knows it and your up-line knows it. They all play the game.
Folks make a lot of money off the brainwashing, and you my friend, will get none of the money or very little and a lot of brainwashing.
Team has their own way of doing business and they never really tell you everything straight up in the beginning. It is a slow indoctrination. New people are generally very confused between the whole team way and MV. If one doesn’t understand, they will ask you if you heard a certain cd..it starts there. “Never give them too much information”, they say. “Let the tools do the work. Think of it like going to school. It’s your business; you will get more out of it if you learn to work for it.
You do not need team to build a MV business. Period.
So, that’s a start…Next time we will take a look of the “New Vision” of Team. Their handy dandy little back of plan cuz they just aren’t reaching their goals….why? why do you think?
You are absolutely correct, (guy at the top who is a fierce all knowing leader), by telling everyone to read, read, read..because “there is too much information out there for anyone to be stupid. All great leaders read!”
With that, I implore everyone who is searching or comes across this, do your reading and your research…it’s not at all what you think it is. You will soon see a lot of old team members comin out of their closets!!
Just remember, there is NOTHING new under the sun. It has all been done before. It Just looks all shiny and new.
Dorothy… Remember that people are made by God, out of Gods love, and in Gods image. We weren’t meant to treat them like dirt, we are not meant to treat any of Gods creations in vain. You call me an enemy and a fool. I don’t consider you as either of those. Is it truly I who is not understanding of God? I respect his highest creation above everything, humans, except for God himself. However, it doesn’t seem to me that you do.
The team isn’t afraid to speak the gospel. In fact, I was just at their Major and they did quite often, on Friday Saturday and especially on Sunday. How are you so disgusted when you know nothing about TEAM… maybe it’s just that. How can you Gossip about Orrin Woodward and at the same time say you are a chaser of God, when Orrin is one of Gods people, and also that you know nothing about him, all of your remarks are assumptions.
You know nothing about the Team, in fact all of your comments are so wrong. Their vision isn’t to be wealthy. Their vision is to help people and to change the world in the Financial realm as well as the realm of Faith, Wisdom, Family, Friends, and all Relationships, and in Leadership. Their mission is to make thousands of leaders willing to stand for something and help to make better this world, Whether trough TEAM or Otherwise.
This commenter requested that her comments be removed from this site.
This commenter requested that her comments be removed from this site.
Looks like someone did Hajj in Mecca…no, wait……..;-)
Ryan, boy are you alllllll FIRED UP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! after your yearly pilgrammage to the Big Major in St Louis. I learned stuff about G-d at a religious institution this weekend as well – but it wasn’t at a business function 😉
Many of us are allllll FED UP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! of losing our spouses, our homes, our dignity, our friends, our money, our credit ratings, our families. I am absolutely humiliated of my actions, what I put my family through…Ryan, my freaking grocery money went to trying to save up for that big fat trip to St Louis back in 2010. Luckily Hubby put his foot down and said no. I then took the money, went to the store and bought some meats that were on sale. This is really serious. I was spending money without even realising how much I was spending.
Please, Ryan, seriously do some research, ok? I wish and pray your eyes would be open to this cult. I’m also wondering if everyone had on those red Orrin ties on? And what about those brown team suits for the ladies? Just wondering…
This commenter requested that her comments be removed from this site.
Jobless said: “Although i think people should be able to say what they feel is true… I mean, if someone gets cured of cancer or something like that, it doesn’t hurt for them to tell the reason why they believe it happened… it’s really not right for the FDA to stop people from the freedom of speech, ideas, or beliefs.”
That’s a truly pathetic response. The issue here is much simpler than you make it out to be. Individuals are prohibited from making unfounded claims about a product’s medical benefits if and only if they have a financial interest in the product they are promoting. The wisdom of preventing manufacturers from fraudulently claiming that inert products have cancer-curing products should be obvious. It’s to protect the welfare of the public. It defies logic that you are essentially arguing on behalf of the right of some con artist to sell your grandma cat pee to cure her cancer. If that doesn’t concern you, then you have failed in your civic duty. The days of traveling snakeoil caravans have long since passed. Your thinking represents a step backwards into the darkness.
Jobless said: “I have had success through other means than MLM, but the concepts and principles that the TEAM teaches are real and even more helpful than what you do here by convincing people to not even get involved to see those principals and truths.”
The concepts that TEAM teaches are feeble, shallow, unoriginal, hackneyed, self-serving, and utterly inane. That kind of dime-store wisdom isn’t doing anyone any favors. I’ve seen one story after another from people describing the manipulative tactics used by TEAM to financially enrich the perpetrators at the top of the pyramid. Convincing people to not join TEAM is not only sensible, it’s the responsible and compassionate thing to do. TEAM is inflicting financial and spiritual ruin on many people — and for what ultimate reason? Money, nothing more.
Jobless said: “So your assumption that i am trying to save my business her is false, i’m trying to save those who want a shot at success and happiness from not allowing themselves to take a risk because of the things you say here. because it is not I who is in denial.”
This altruistic picture you are trying to paint is an illusion. There are many paths to success and happiness, but you are not promoting those; your only interest is in promoting TEAM, and that’s blatantly self-serving. And, yes, you are clearly in denial
Jobless said: “You can talk bad about product all you want, it doesn’t offend me any, because the true issue here is people.”
The lack of value of the product is paramount here and yet you conveniently brush it aside as though it were entirely inconsequential. However, the juice is the cornerstone of the business. Take the juice away, and the TEAM pyramid topples. The evidence proving the juice’s lack of value is unimpeachable, and yet you ignore it and continue to defend the TEAM organization, which is built on a substandard, scandalously overpriced, deceptively-marketed juice product. How does that represent success, unless you define success as profit at any cost?
Jobless said: “Joecool, we haven’t talked much… but I read a little about you. You left an MLM because one of your ‘leaders’ told you to basically drop your wife. Family comes before business, any one that suggest anything of the opposite nature is sick disgusting!”
From the experiences of TEAM members that I have been privy to, family (other than their own) is an afterthought to the leaders; window dressing…lip service. When the chips are down, we have all seen that TEAM expects family to take a back seat to the business. It’s all about the money and nothing else.
Jobless said: “The nature of MLMs isn’t evil. Yes there are some evil people who have been involved… but that goes true with everything. MLMs can potentially be a great business model.And many of its concepts are great for any business really.”
The nature of YOUR MLM is EVIL. Stop trying to deflect attention away from that fact by bringing other MLMs into the picture (and incidentally, enough of them are sufficiently evil that your mentioning them does not help TEAM’s case one iota).
Jobless said: “I’m not really in any form of argument with you guys, i’m just trying to let you understand that you are capable of something WAY more productive.”
Well, yes you are arguing; you’re just not doing a very good job because you have no valid arguments by which to defend TEAM. That’s why you avoid the issues and instead post all this tripe about how TEAM loves everybody and wants everybody to succeed. BS!!!
Jobless said: “Just imagine this scenario. You have died and gone to heaven, God says to you ‘Good job my faithful servant. You have destroyed the MLMs that have been spreading truth about me and Christianity, putting hope back into peoples lives, made many people become happier and more emotionally self controlled, built up the characters of (not all but) many. and have allowed many to grow and become better with people, treat the spouses more purely, and spend more quality time with their children… all at the possible risk/cost of a weakened finances, but also many times a heightened finances as well.’ Now of course that sounds ridiculous, God would never commend you for ruining something that was good, holy, and helpful to this world and the people in it.”
You’re an intellectually dishonest blasphemer son. That scenario you whipped up presupposes that God believes that MLMs are good because they spread Christianity. Need I point out the deficiencies in that line of reasoning? It essentially abides by any form of dishonesty and impropriety as long as it spreads Christianity; it falsely sanctifies TEAM, and it ignores the ruinous consequences that TEAM has had (emotionally, financially, and spiritually) on so many of its victims. Your self-serving callousness is truly astonishing. God is not a TEAM sales tool so please avoid invoking his name on TEAMs behalf.
Jobless said: “Right~ So our real problem here is not with MLMs, it’s with people. Of course we shouldn’t try to hurt or attack people… but MLMs are made up of people, so it’s really not nice to try to destroy that either. Both of those options are kind of evil. So what can we do to solve the true problem here? Dorothy… Remember that people are made by God, out of Gods love, and in Gods image. We weren’t meant to treat them like dirt, we are not meant to treat any of Gods creations in vain. You call me an enemy and a fool.”
Terrorist organizations, drug cartels, and child porn rings are made of people too. Does that mean we shouldn’t attack them either? Your moral reasoning is sadly deficient. You are essentially extolling people to remain silent no matter what depraved transgression they may witness. A good person does not go limp in such a situation; they speak out on behalf of righteousness and defend the interests of the weak and innocent. THAT is the Christian thing to do.
Jobless said: “The team isn’t afraid to speak the gospel. In fact, I was just at their Major and they did quite often, on Friday Saturday and especially on Sunday. How are you so disgusted when you know nothing about TEAM…”
Appealing to Christianity in this way might be appropriate if your business is selling crucifixes or shroud of Turin reproductions, but it’s wholly inappropriate for selling juice. If the goal is to maximize the potential market for your juice, then the conduct you just described would be counterproductive. You are not selling “Christian juice”; just juice. Why intentionally alienate non-Christians? The underlying reason is rather obvious; religious guilt is being used as a lever to manipulate Christians into joining and staying in TEAM. That’s simply inexcusable, and in my opinion, blasphemous. Let’s not ignore the facts – TEAM is a pyramid scheme selling worthless juice; I fail to see any religious justification for such exploitation.
Jobless said: “You know nothing about the Team, in fact all of your comments are so wrong. Their vision isn’t to be wealthy. Their vision is to help people and to change the world in the Financial realm as well as the realm of Faith, Wisdom, Family, Friends, and all Relationships, and in Leadership. Their mission is to make thousands of leaders willing to stand for something and help to make better this world,”
Hyperbole much? Collectively, we know a lot about TEAM; probably more than you know. If Woodwart’s goal is to help people, then he has failed miserably, unless by “people” he means himself and a few of his dishonest sacrilegious friends.
Matthew R.: How did you find out that Pastor Robert L. Dickie is no longer associated with TEAM? Any more info on this??
Here is Pastor Robert L. Dickie’s website… http://www.allgrace.com/tabid/194/Default.aspx
Check out the Staff & Leadership still associated with TEAM:
Mark (&Jenn) Paul – Property Chairman – Blue Diamonds in TEAM Monavie
Matt (&Cheryl) Abraham – Deacon – Leaders on TEAM Monavie
Matt Zimmerman – Deacon – Leader on TEAM Monavie
Don (&Chris) Freeze – Elder – Emeralds on TEAM Monavie
I’d say Pastor Robert L Dickie is so far entrenched with TEAM Monavie and Orrin that he’s build his ENTIRE ministry on the back of the TEAM. He’s no different than the ‘leaders’ on TEAM. He sees himself as ‘changing’ the lifes of thousands of people… REAL Pastor’s see him as taking advantage of thousands of people to serve a ‘few’. My husband is a Baptist Pastor with over 700 folks in his congregation and made a great point: Dexter Yager the kingpin from AMWAY used AMWAY as a front to build a community to sell its tools to generate his wealth. TEAM is using MONAVIE as a front to build a community to sell its tools. Pastor Robert L Dickie is using TEAM as a front to build his community to sell GOD. How is this morally right??
Vogel – “This altruistic picture you are trying to paint is an illusion. There are many paths to success and happiness, but you are not promoting those; your only interest is in promoting TEAM, and that’s blatantly self-serving. And, yes, you are clearly in denial”
Absolutely wrong, There is no illusion, and if you had thoroughly read all my posts you would have seen that I am not being subjective to team. In fact encouraged you guys here to go do something besides trying to get revenge… remember that revenge is a Sin.
I find it funny how you make things up about me.
“Jobless said: “I’m not really in any form of argument with you guys, i’m just trying to let you understand that you are capable of something WAY more productive.””
Why did you dodge the true issue at hand here and go directly into attacking TEAM once again?…
“A good person does not go limp in such a situation; they speak out on behalf of righteousness and defend the interests of the weak and innocent. THAT is the Christian thing to do.”
Yep… and THAT is why I am here. because you speak of holy as sin.
and wow at this next statement:
“Appealing to Christianity in this way might be appropriate if your business is selling crucifixes or shroud of Turin reproductions, but it’s wholly inappropriate for selling juice…”
I thought that God should be in all things to keep them holy, but from what you said, you stated that God should be left out of business and be cast aside as something unrelated… are you sure TEAM is the evil one here? From that statement it sounds to me that it’s you.
I don’t have time to explain to you every single detail about the world and how it works, but I stand strongly by all that I have said here.
So I’m going to say something that will be the end of all arguments here.
All of you here are here Specifically for the reason that Vogel said. As i had been here for a short time and talked with several of you. I came in under the presumption, and giving you all the benefit of the doubt, that you were here to help people make the correct decisions. However, under further inspection, I have come to find that it was, just as vogel noted, under the drive of your own emotions. You all state you have been emotionally damaged by some MLM. Do you not realize that your own emotions are in YOUR control, and if you’re damaged it is your own fault. you can take any MLM at your own pace, no mater if anyone else pushes you. you can always leave if you will it. All in all it is your own fault for everything you’re so upset about. You’ve made the wrong choices and you’re blaming your pain on other cooperation… Forgive me for calling you out, but sometimes we all need to get punched in the face with our weaknesses so we can move on.
Amthrax is now Moderating my posts under the excuse that “they were too long” however looking at all of your posts recently, they are just as long if not even longer from some of you. It has nothing to do with whether it was on topic or not either, since i’ve seen a lot of you getting off topic as well.
Amthrax tried to moderate me because he saw me as a threat to this community, slowly changing and shaping the culture was absolutely possible over time, as I had proven in less than 3 days. Frankly I don’t care to continue, those who chose to live a better life will, those who choose to wallow in their emotions will, it’s too bad for them if they are too stubborn to move on. All you guys do is Gossip, and yet you have the gull to try to call me out as protecting evil? I do not gossip, but i am willing to call you out in front of you… because it is better than just letting you sit there in a downward spiral because no one told you it could be different.
And if you don’t believe that is why Amthrax is moderating me, let him speak for himself… but if you will allow him to speak for himself… then you must allow people to speak for themselves… including MLMs. if you don’t like the fact that i made an claim against your leader, then maybe you should stop making claims against others. Besides it doesn’t do anyone good for you to… really, it doesn’t. Especially if all people see you for is a bunch of negative, unhappy, emotionally stuck, people with no character… because that’s what you make yourselves look like. Sorry but it’s true… maybe not all of you, and you’re all capable of so much more. but if you refuse to move on it’s your own loss. and your own fault, stop blaming everything on others.
Good luck to you all, sorry i didn’t have the drive to get to all of your comments.
God bless.
Ryan Seewald – “Jobless” =)
This commenter requested that her comments be removed from this site.
btw aurora… yes… i have done just that before “Can you just hear ‘jobless wonder’ or any other IBO prospecting by telling people that they, too, can join this marvelous group just to become better people and save the world. *gag*” And it worked =) heh.
“Then ‘jobless wonder’ tries to scare us with, “Well, I’ve told dino about you dirty rascals.””
Wow… really? i seriously never said that nor do i ever even speak of this dino guy… you certainly hate people don’t you? enough to make up things about them. hm, nothing you say is credible from here on out.
one last thing then i’m out. I probably won’t be coming back for a while since I have no need to defend myself, you’re wrongs and lies speak for them selves if you so choose to attack me.
as i stated before:
“I do not gossip, but i am willing to call you out in front of you… because it is better than just letting you sit there in a downward spiral because no one told you it could be different.”
If you are so upset about these MLM’s why are you just standing on the side lines protesting against them, it’s not helping you or anyone else, doesn’t really persuade many people either. So why not talk to the MLMs directly, and in a productive manner, not just an aggressive and destructive manner to where they won’t listen to you. so yeah, why not talk to the MLMs directly and try to change them from their ‘harmful ways’? i’ll let you answer that for yourselves. (if you can’t persuade them any different, what makes you think you can persuade anyone else?) Good luck to you all.
See you later, i shall return in a few weeks from now to check up on ya and see how you are all doing.
Peace~ =)
Vogel’s comments was long because he was responding to your original, incredibly long post.
Commenting is a privilege that I provide on this blog. Those who hijack the thread to turn it into his or her own soapbox go to the moderation bin. This applies to both supporters and critics (just ask Tex).
@Ryan – Why in the hell do you think we’re speaking out? Because our families and sanity is on the line. We ‘ve been burnt, Ryan, you haven’t, so you can’t understand our frustration and anger. You yourself admitted that TEAM expenses creeps up on a person, and it’s TRUE!
Sorry, mate, we’re speaking out against injustice. I nearly lost my family. I nearly went bankrupt. Others have lost everything but the shirt on their backs. Why? Because of the intense motivational pressure TEAM applies on those of us who want to get out of debt and give our families a better life. It ran us to the ground.
*snarl*
This commenter requested that her comments be removed from this site.
Ryan, you are a disingenuous fool. The only thing you have provided here, inadvertently, is a cautionary tale against Monavie. You make asinine statements and then make no effort to defend them after they are rightly challenged. So let’s wind the tape back again and review a few of those key points you conveniently glossed over.
You questioned why it’s not OK for a distributor to imply that Monavie can cure cancer. As I pointed out, it’s illegal to do so. That you would have asked this question in the first place demonstrates your ignorance of US law; that you fail to acknowledge my response demonstrates that you are intellectually dishonest and incapable of admitting when you are wrong.
Secondly, you raised the issue of leveraging Christianity in the Monavie business. I pointed out that doing so is an unsound strategy for a juice company. You failed to apprehend the very simple reasons I provided. So let’s review those reasons again.
(1) Monavie does not advertise itself as a “Christian juice company”; why the duplicity? If they are in fact “Christian juice company”, then they should state this on the product homepage. To not do so is deceptive.
(2) As a retail businessman, I would never want to limit my customer base to Christians only, unless, as I pointed out, the product was something that had unique appeal to Christians (like crucifixes for instance). Excluding non-Christian customers makes absolutely no sense at all for a juice company, which is probably why you don’t see juice products in the supermarket segregated by the religious groups they are intended to appeal to (i.e., you don’t find a Christian juice section, a Hindu juice section, etc.).
(3) The same logic applies to the distributors; why would you position the business in such a way as to discriminate against non-Christian distributors? You would no doubt argue that Monavie will take money from anyone regardless of their religion, but I would counter that it is ridiculous for any non-Christian to join the business when it is clearly exclusionary in nature. Would a Hindu, Jew, or Muslim want to join a company that states that its goal is to promote Christian values? No, of course not. Again, if the company were honest about the fact that they are exclusionary and that non-Christians will be discriminated against, then that would at least be honest (although still prejudicial). But the company is not honest about this fact.
On top of everything else, you completely ignore the evidence of the product’s lack of value, the inordinately high failure rate of distributors, the rampant use of illegal advertising methods, and the company’s connection with various neer-do-wells, fraud artists, and convicted felons. You bypass all of this and try to sanctify your atrocious scam under the deluded notion that it is somehow consistent with God’s will. It’s clearly not. Your inability to admit this makes you less decidedly unChristian, and in fact, quite evil, despite the BS candy coating you wrap all your posts in.
What’s most conspicuous about your posts is (a) the lack of substance and (b) your unwillingness to ever discuss the product itself. I don’t want to hear any more vague BS from you about positivity and religion. Talk about the product or go away and leave those of us who are willing to do so the opportunity to have a meaningful and unfettered discussion.
Jobless Ryan said: “If you are so upset about these MLM’s why are you just standing on the side lines protesting against them, it’s not helping you or anyone else, doesn’t really persuade many people either. So why not talk to the MLMs directly, and in a productive manner, not just an aggressive and destructive manner to where they won’t listen to you. so yeah, why not talk to the MLMs directly and try to change them from their ‘harmful ways’? i’ll let you answer that for yourselves. (if you can’t persuade them any different, what makes you think you can persuade anyone else?) Good luck to you all.”
Your comment presupposes that I (and others) are merely sitting on the sidelines and not taking more direct action against Monavie. That’s a baseless assumption, since you know nothing about the offline activities of any of the people who post here. You can rest assured that at least some of us are corresponding with federal regulatory agencies to put an end to your fraudulent business.
You also make the mistaken assumption that posting on blogs doesn’t help people. It clearly hurts people like you, but it also helps to provide information to people so that they can avoid getting sucked into your pyramid scheme and becoming another red ink statistic in the loss column. And if our arguments weren’t persuasive, you wouldn’t be here chaffing over them.
Lastly, it’s mindboggling that you could think for even an instant that we should be negotiating with the company. They are ruthless liars and con artists; they planned this scam by design; and in fact, Dallin Larsen pulled the exact same scam with Royal Tongan Limu juice (sanctioned, fined millions, and shut down by the FDA/DOJ) immediately before he launched Monavie (a virtually identical juice scam in every respect). I have no more interest in pursuing negotiations to persuade Monavie execs to not defraud the public than I would have in trying to negotiate with pedarists to convince them that they should stop raping children. But if you want to relay a message to the execs from me, tell them that they can voluntarily go out of business or face the consequences of legal action. Those are the terms of the negotiation. My way or the highway. They deserve no sympathy, no leeway, and no more second chances. My sympathies are reserved for Monavie’s victims; not the company, and certainly not disingenuous exploitive dullards like you.
Vegel;
My hat is off to you. You are an eloquent writer.
I’m more of the gutteral shoot-from-the-hip, born-on-the-wrong-side-of-the-tracks, please-don’t-feed-me-BS-type.
Your posts are a pleasure to read.
Thanks Aurora. The guttoral shoot-from-hip style is great too (loved your cupcake comment…snicker). It’s all for a good cause in the end.
How much of the ill-gotten gains do you think Saint Dickweed gave back to the sheep he helped fleece?
@Ryan – Oh one more thing, while you may be moderated, I do eventually post your comments. That’s more than you can say for Orrin and his blog. You have to at least give me that 🙂
Hi, Webelieved, glad to see you got out, and I’m glad this site is getting more publicity, it really does help also as s support for those of us who left TEAM. What made you wake up and leave TEAM? Red flags, etc. Abour Rev Dickie I think I read somewhere that he had members on his board and staff (of the church he pastors) that are pretty high up there in TEAM. That doesn’t sound like he’s ignorant of TEAM. Sorry, just like Vogel, I’m pretty sceptic of Dickie being “innocently deceived” :-s
Webelieved asked: “Hey Vogel, do you know Pastor Dickie personally? I believe sadly, he has been decieved. Used just like the rest of us by Orrin and his Generals.”
No, never met Dickie, and don’t ever care to. I don’t see how he could have reached the rank he acheived in the organization without being at least partially aware of what was going on, and if he wasn’t, ignorance is still no excuse. He bears responsibility for not having thoroughly investigated the scam before enticing others to join.
If Dickie believes that he was misled by Orrin and his minions, then why am I not hearing him speak out about it; why is he not condemning the deceivers? And if he now knows that he was deceived, it means he’s also aware that he in turn deceived others. How is he repenting for his part in the deception? Is he sounding a warning? Is he giving back his ill-otten gains to the victims? No and no.
Despite the reams of evidence of impropriety in the Monavie organization, I am yet to see ANY senior executive take responsibility; instead they just pass the buck and shift the blame, and that sickens me.
Becuase Dickie was one of the exploiters profiting from this scam, he is among the last people on my priority list for sympathy.
When I see comments about Dickie like this one in Forbe’s magazine, I have a very hard time thinking of him as one of the innocents:
“Woodward’s Web site shows the 41-year-old on his 72-foot yacht and grinning with Pastor Robert Dickie Jr. of Berean Baptist Church in Grand Blanc, Mich. Dickie speaks at Team conventions and gives Bible lessons on Team’s CDs. His son, Robert Dickie III, is Team’s chief executive.”
http://www.forbes.com/forbes/2008/0811/050.html
Personally, I don’t think Dickie can defend his innocence or deflect responsibility. I think he went in to this with eyes wide open and knew EXACTLY what he was doing from the get go.
The day Dickie publically condemns this BS scam (and makes reparations to his victims) is the day he’ll earn a modicum of my respect. Until then, he’s just as bad as all the rest of the thugs and charlatans in the upper eschelons of the Monavie pyramid. I might be able to forgive him somday, but not until he repents and tries to make things right.
webelieved, I too believe that Pastor Dickie was “used in the worst way.” I do personally know and have spoke with Pastor Dickie and would not want to be in his position. He still does have members on his board still and not sure about them, but do know Orrin, Chris, and Tim are no longer listed on there. When I spoke to him it was on a very personal level of my experience so therefore I cannot speak for him, nor would I. I do wish though that he would make a public statement on why he left the team but it would probably take a book like the rest of us that have been in an illusional state and are now crawling our way out of the pit of hell, dealing with with the excruciating pain that we have caused others and ourselves.
Depending on your experience,how long you were in, what level you were at, how close you were to the highest of the hiearchy, etc. plays a big role into the healing and how long it takes to share what really happened. It has taken me 2 1/2 years to even come close to scratching the surface of what really happened. First comes the excruiciating pain, then the anger, which for me, the term “postal” has a whole new meaning.
So, for Vogel and Izzy, I can totally relate to your statement of “innocently deceived” you both could say the same about me. There really are no words to describe the anguish that this causes to the human, heart, mind, soul.
There is so much more that is untold, and people would get irated on here because my post would take pages.
Orrin would love to come on here and call us “victims,” “cowards,” “unbiblical” which he already has done to us.
But in reality it is exactlly what he is doing creating victims (it takes a vicitmizer to create victims), he runs a narcisstic cult, creates others just like him, and those who have been close to him for years and have challenged his agenda, knows first hand this to be true.
So he has to live everyday just waiting and wondering when he will be “found out” about his profit-sharing, and alot more and believe me what comes around goes around evenutally just like Madoff, he too will be found out. Who knows maybe they will be cell mates or maybe it would be more appropriate for “Manson” to have him as a cell mate. This may sound harsh but until you walk in my shoes could anyone even come close to understanding.
@webelieved – although I have no direct experience with TEAM and Woodward, his antics are similar to what I saw firsthand a decade ago in Amway. That’s why I’m interested in shining the light on what I perceive to be abuses in these Systems. The comments that have been posted by you and other ex-TEAM members has been very illuminating. Do you know why there has been such an influx of comments lately? Do you have an idea how many people attended the recent Leadership Conference in Ohio?
Vogel, I too have had some of the same questions. I do know that All the Dickies, including Pastor have left the team. CEO Robert, Ben (his brother), Ben’s father- in- law Bob Cassidy, and Pastor D. son-in-law Kevin Thompson. I could not speak for any of them. I do know my experience and if anyone knows about the “profit-sharing” or anything else that is “questionable” “secretive”, and knows why they can and do take it away from people who have “earned it by bringing those customers to them, in other words the ” whole truth”, then I feel there is a moral and ethical obligation to reveal it.
Glad you are here speaking the truth and sharing your experiences. You raised valid points about how difficult it can be to put one’s life back together after going through the Monavie ringer. Like you, I too wish that Dickie would make a statement. It might help considerably with his healing process (not to mention his strained relationship with the Alimighty) to make amends. Sooner would be better than later.
Vogel,
I believe it is just a matter of time and you will see more and more speak the truth. I hope for their healing to begin it will help along with educating themselves on cults, mind control and other subjects that will help them heal. I do know alot of people that this has rocked them to their core including me but thank God I am a survior, because of the betrayal, lies, “using” God to fulfil their agenda, and much more. I also know people personally have even questioned their faith and are still struggling with it because of what they have done. So, I agree, the sooner the better for anyone to speak up who has the truth of these narcisstic, twisted, and greedy people who have destroyed peoples finances, faith, and minds. I know there are a few select people who would know the truth about the “profit-sharing” and pray they fulfil their eithical and moral obligations. Btw they call the people on system, “customers” now, think it’s another illusion, of saving themselves from “pyramid scheme”,(that they sue others for and expect to see them as heros and they wonder why people have not zero respect but negitive respect, its amazing) but everyone knows we were paid strickly off our numbers with no end users, we will wait to see who will be the chosen ones for this project. So much for their transperancy, they screem for others to have, such Hypocrisy! But as for me I know it will come back to haunt them with unbelievable force if not in this life but the after life better to do it now, but their choice!
The profit-shares themselves didn’t even know how they got paid, because they never let anyone read the contracts they made people sign with no chance of getting a copy yep it just keeps getting better. “Just suppose to TRUST” I know it seems unbelievable and it is. What company on planet earth would not tell you how you are paid and worse yet you might say who would be dumb enough to bring hundreds of thousands for some millions over the years,to them through the teams you worked your guts out for, lots of people did! Well it was a long process of them first gaining trust (over many, many, years), then complete chaos, and greed took over and they could no longer hide, thier true colors were flying high of having “integrity, honesty, transparency, strong Christian values. Outrageous! I am speaking the truth because it is necessary. This is my experience and alot of others but will let others if they choose speak for themselves. Glad to see webelieve and others are speaking, let’s all of us others that have experienced some of the same garbage get it out. Thanks for the forum. Monavie “ringer”, interesting terminology you use, you sure you don’t know Orrin?
Hey amthrax wanted to let you know we posted on lazyman a few days ago. Tells a bit more of our story. Not sure if you saw it. Under coercion. Wondering has Orrin sued you? Or is there really freedom of speech in this country?
*********AMTHRAX – Please share with your readers, I was a Sapphire in Quixtar located in UTAH. I left the business in 2007. This is an example of how much money is made on tools….. up to 47% ***********
Legacy Business Group was an organization formed by Amway Diamonds, which all joined TEAM.
Legacy Leader –
Using the attached spreadsheet as a guide will help you better understand as you go through this explanation of the Hybrid Bracket payout system which uses a BV calculation to calculate your bonuses.
BV calculation
BV is equal to the amount of money contributed to the payout system for each item, divided by .64. The reason for using a BV number is it put all tools on an equal basis which simplifies the bonus calculation.
For instance: a $10 item which contributes $2 to the bonus calculation has a BV of 3.125.
Additionally, a $5 item which contributes $2 to the bonus calculation has a BV of 3.125.
Therefore even though BSMs may have different retail prices they may very well contribute the same amount to the bonus pool because the actual production cost of one BSM might be higher than another. For example, the CDs we receive through InterNET Services cost us $1.00 more than it cost to produce a Legacy CD. In this case an InterNET CD would have less BV than a Legacy CD because less is contributed to the bonus pool due to higher production cost of the InterNET CD.
Bracket System
The first part of the calculation is the Bracket system which is divided into 3 parts also. The first part of the bracket system is for Qualified Platinums and above. You first qualify on this bracket by selling (through personal and group purchases) 750BV worth of BSMs. By doing so you earn 14% of BV. As you can see the brackets go up to 41% in the Qualified Platinum and above Bracket.
The second two brackets earn an additional 3% for Pin Emeralds and an additional 3% for IBO’s who are Qualified Founders Emeralds or Pin Diamonds. Therefore, if you are a Pin Diamond or Qualified Founders Emerald, you can qualify to be paid for up to 47% of BV.
Note: September 1, 2006, these second two brackets will change to the following: First 3% bracket will go to Qualified Emeralds, the second 3% bracket will go to Qualified Founders Emeralds (regardless of pin).
As a Qualified Platinum or above, if you have a Qualified Platinum or above in your group who qualifies for a bonus on the bracket scale you will subtract the amount of their bonus from yours. For example if you qualify at 1500BV in the 18% bracket and you have a Qualified Platinum or above who qualifies with 1000BV at 14%. Your bonus will be 1500*.18 = 270 – 140 = $130 and your Platinum’s bonus will be $140.00 (1000bv*.14=$140).
5% Override Bonus
The second part of the bonus is a 5% bonus on legs which max out at 15000BV. This bonus is paid as follows: You will receive a 5% override bonus on any leg which is maxed out at 15000BV, if you have 15000BV outside that leg. If you do not have 15000BV outside the maxed out leg, you will keep the percentage of the available 5% that you have of the 15,000BV with a minimum outside requirement of 4000BV. If you do not have 4000BV all of the 5% will pass-up to the next qualified platinum or above which has at least 4000BV outside the maxed out leg.
The 5% is only paid once on the leg so the first qualified Platinum or above with enough outside volume to stop the 5% is who will receive it. A multi-leg example of this is as follows:
IBO 1 has 2 maxed out legs.
Leg A is 16000BV, Leg B is 15000 BV and he has 6000BV outside of both of these legs. For Leg A he would receive 16000*.05= $800 as he has 21000BV outside of Leg A.
For Leg B, IBO 1 would receive 40% of the 5% bonus or $300. This is because IBO 1 has 6000BV outside of Legs A and B which is 6000/15000 or 40% of the 15000bv *.05 = $750 from Leg B.
Bonus pools
The bonus pools are calculated the same as the have been for the last year. If you sell an item you will receive the full amount of points allotted for that item. If your down-line platinum sells an item he will receive the full allotment of points for the item and you will receive half that amount and so on. The percentage of BV shown on the Hybrid Bracket System breakdown is contributed to each pool and you will receive an amount equal to your percentage of the pool.
This is repeated for each pool for which you qualify.
Note: the Pin pools will be kept until the end of August 2006 at which time they will combine to be Qualified Pools.
These three parts of the bracket system are calculated and summed to calculate your bonus each month.
I hope with the attached spreadsheet and this explanation you will be able to understand the bonus system. We will continue to create reports that will be available on the website to help you better run your business. If you have any questions please feel free to call me at xxx xxx xxxx.
Thank You
XXX XXXXXXX
Vice President of Finance
Legacy Business Group, LLC
This commenter requested that her comments be removed from this site.
BEST ADVICE: RUN, DON’T WALK, GET OUT!
Most everyone I know left on “bad” terms.
Why I believe more people won’t speak up:
1 Would be the obvious; lawsuit.
2 Some people spent years and years to find out they were living a lie and were emotionally, physically (became ill), and financially, devastated. Most after experiencing this much trauma, want nothing more than to have a normal life. Leaving a cult environment requires sometimes, a very long time, so you can put yourself and your life back together. When you first leave you may not recognize yourself because of all the confusion “secrets”, loss, betrayal, and lies. It may take years for some to clear the fog due to the manipulation, deception, and mind control. So to but it short and sweet, most don’t have the energy and or have not healed enough and some just don’t want to bother.
3 All the big leaders that I know left because of the betrayal, lied to their income and people stolen from.
I want nothing more for people to SEE, through the illusion, and recognize the “play on your emotions” and the greedy tactics of how you can to get all the riches!
***Their object is to get you to “buy in and get fully invested” “become 100% dependent on the system and your upline so you become trapped!
But personally, I believe that to heal; you need to educate yourself about mind control, narcissistic leaders, cults, you have to talk , maybe even seek professional help, most counselors don’t have the expertise to help so seek cult advise.
One of the biggest things for us, and it seemed really bazaar at first, was closing the gap on the loss of the cultural gap, meaning totally isolating ourselves from the real world for over a decade, the world inside the team is an illusion, because of the indoctrination of “evil government/scam” (they think they are clever in distracting you with, so you don’t recognize their scam!) “Negative news” “bosses” “bad advice” basically criticism of everything but their advice, etc.
If you pay attention to the “subtleties” it becomes clear, the discrepancies and the difference between the walk and talk. Also you may pick up on the clues into their agenda.
So as for me I am studying about mind control, social control, narcissism(scary and twisted,) other stuff. I believe we cannot help others until we have helped ourselves.
To come to terms with the experience:
The Origins of Totalitarianism, the single goal of those movements was “the permanent domination of each and every sphere of life,”
Most can relate to this; like the control of ALL information, keeping you so busy you don’t have time for family that are outside the business, no negative or any other media for that fact,(unless it is what they have chosen for you) spending your vacations or planning around seminars, majors, fun in the sun (supposed rewarded, EARNED, vacation- where you will be in more meetings), “counseling people” (that we had NO business doing), Leadership Conventions,meetings after meetings, basically controlling all your time, telling you when and how you need to plan your family, date night, (old ways PV parties etc…) Women’s n Men’s leadership, Tues., call sessions on nights you aren’t STP, phone calls, and if you were “privileged” enough and wanted to do the work to build everyone else’s team at Your expense (we did this), you could take your time and money to build your own local seminars but you would have to plan time for inventory for tools, balancing, take the hit and financial loss, etc……. didn’t leave much time to think or do ANYTHING else, it becomes impossible to “shut out” even thinking about it all! Sound familiar? This would make sense if you walked in our shoes.
What is a Cult?
The basic traits that all cults share from the International Cultic Studies Association (ICSA) a nonprofit research and educational organization, adopted in 1985:
” A CULT IS A GROUP OR MOVEMENT EXHIBITING GREAT OR EXCESSIVE DEVOTION OR DEDICATION TO SOME PERSON , IDEA, OR THING, AND EMPLOYING UNETHICAL, MANIPUTLATIVE, OR COERCIVE TECHNICQUES OF PERSUASION AND CONTROL (e.g. ISOLATION FROM FORMER FRIENDS AND FAMILY, DEBILITATION, USE OF SPECIAL METHODS TO HEIGHTEN SUGGESTIBILITY AND SUBSERVIENCE, POWERFUL GROUP PRESSURES, INFORMATION MANAGEMENT, SUSPENSION OF INDIVIDUALITY OR CRITICAL JUDGMENT, PROMOTION OF TOTAL DEPENDENCY(system, my added) ON THE GROUP AND FEAR OF LEAVING IT) DESIGNED TO ADVANCE THE GOALS OF THE GROUP’S LEADERS, TO THE ACTUAL OR POSSIBLE DETRIMENT OF MEMBERS, THEIR FAMILIES , OR THE COMMUNITY.
You can draw your own conclusion, but I know what my experience was.
Sound familiar! Can you SEE it! It should be crystal clear!
Speak Your Truth said something that stood out to me – and that was the fact that a lot of people are scared to speak up for fear of lawsuits. In this day and age everyone sues everyone for anything. I was told by my family to not speak out because I would be slapped with one, especially since my upline and her upline have close connections with Claude Hamilton. I am warning people about it, though. But yes, the fear is very real in the back of my mind.
As far as the blocking out negativity goes, I lost a friend to TEAM as well. She’s heavily involved in the stuff, and won’t listen to my warnings, and unfriended me on her Facebook because she couldn’t subject herself to the negativeity that’s showing up on her newsfeed, even though I’m speaking out about my personal experience.
So sad. 😦
This commenter requested that her comments be removed from this site.
Izzy and aurora- The lawsuit issue is very real and for us personally, they stripped us of every penny we were making, strategically, this was their plan,(the same as they said, Amway did to them). They did this to many leaders. I can’t stress the financial and mental stress this has caused many leaders so for all to come together for a civil suit, would have been probably years of the same garbage to relive not to mention, the money and time. I am not saying this won’t ever happen and it is very difficult to put into words for others to understand, I would have to indulge other’s situations to explain.
Izzy- I am sorry and can totally relate to the loss of friends, I too have many friends that I genuinely care for that are so brainwashed. It is all so crazy the grip that they have on others minds.
I can’t wait for the laws of nature to kick in, I will not be completely free until everyone is out and the fraud is exposed and those who deserve it put behind bars. I feel bad for those that are blindly following , believing they will get any financial can, but will only get heartache out of it. They can’t see the train wreck coming! You take the “System’s” away, all else will fail!
While you can sue anyone for anything these days, do you know what form this lawsuit threat will take? Would they sue you for lost wages or slander? How are they communicating your departure from the organization (or those leaders that have left — not the Legacy group, but more recent ones) ?
Slander, Amthrax. Defamation of their business. The Woodwards and their motley crue of slick salesmen and lawyers are constantly making lawsuits and some other legal action to “shut us up”.
Maybe it is better to let Nature take her course…things do come to a crumble, and our patience will be awarded. But by golly, am I freakin’ IMPATIENT and MAD!
I did have a question for you Izzy or anyone else from the Hamilton team; probably ex-team could answer.
Why did Claude & Lana stay when his upline left the team?
This is another “illusion” Orrin portrays to stroke his narcissistic personality, “that he has 100,000 people on the team” giving the impression like it is his team. Those of us that have been around from the beggining know better, this “image is a lie”, thousands of people came from all the other groups, that were never in Orrin’s team,Billy F., Randy H.,Chuck G. the Crawfords, etc. but he rakes in the cash from their teams that stayed and then distributed (at least one of these groups system counts that I know of to another team that never built it, to be paid and recognized for it.
Amthrax- If you are asking me the question, your guess is as good as mine, but there is no doubt they have alot more money for lawyers, than all the people I know put together, that have left because we all lost thousands per month.
As fas as what they are communicating about why we have left, you name it, we heard all kinds of “half-truths/lies, it was pretty histerical, pretty much what ever suited them, and what-ever they could be convincing of for the week, just like their programs or ideas of the week!
By the way, I couldn’t help myself to let you all know that I have been reading your site and many others for quite awhile, it has served me well as I seriously laugh out loud at some of the comments! Alot of you have a great sense of humor, and I understand the anger and passion.
So, THANK YOU ALL!
@Speak Your Truth, I honestly don’t know what happened to the Hamiltons’ upline, nor do I know who they are. I always assumed that they were under Orrin Woodward. I could be wrong. I think the Hamiltons are greedy, for sure, they were showing off their $2 million home and their big traveling couch thingy with a queen-sized bed, marble floors and a bunch of huge flat-screen TVs – money talks!
webelieve-thanks for sharing some of the “rumor, hearsay, and popular opinions(what they use for all and any information out side of their info.) I think they were born with 2 mouths, out 1 they claim they are transparent, honest, have ut-most character, Godly (to me is the worst abuse) while they speak out the other one(mouth), they criticize,condem and complain about college tuitions, family members jobs,other organizations,etc, etc.. The Hypocrisy is criminal to me!
Izzy- If I remember correctly the Crawfords and Haugens are their upline. But as you can see their (image of lies) is effective, you were on the Hamilton’s team and you didn’t even know Orrin WASN’T in your upline!
No offense or disrespect to you, just proves how effective the smoke and mirrors are. Thanks for answering. That is another double mouth talk they say they aren’t materialistic and not about the money, when in fact that is exactly what they brag about and show off! They all do this I have been to both Orrin’s, Guzzardo, houses and other Diamonds too. Never was I impressed, they were nice but just never did do anything for me at all. They want you to oooh and aah over them. The worst kicker that irrated me the most was we had to hit certain numbers to even be invited then pay our way there.Who in the world makes “their friends” EARN their way to your house? Disgusting! Same with the fun-in-the-sun, had to bust your butt to get qualified (Earned it, and was under the impression it would be funded)only to find out you had to pay for the all of it (except the “profit-sharing paid for the hotel, so in a sense anyone on system paid for the hotels”), 2 plain tickets, rental car, all the food and anything else was out of your own pocket and then had to have meetings everyday! So their “image of lies,” they are notorious for and also how they keep themselves (they think)looking good.
Izzy- I made that statement based on pre-MonaVie. I have no idea how they went into MonaVie or what special deals happened there but they were never in Orrin’s team before along with who know’s how many many thousands for sure! If they would ever tell any truth(doubtful) and we could see how many in the team today that are not from all the other leaders that brought and built them over, it might just end them, just my opinion, judging by the droves that have quit and left.
webelieved-I remembered another one “they weren’t following the team principles”(they failed to explain “their principles” though, and what I know their was stealing, cheating, & lying) these are only what their pawns were to whisper to those that asked.
This commenter requested that her comments be removed from this site.
This commenter requested that her comments be removed from this site.
Dorothy,
Are you being hypothetical here or are these direct questions and answers?
I won’t even begin to address this until I know if these are real live questions and answers, and even then I don’t know if I will be able to address this without completely going off!
Looks like ‘Juice Scam’ has dedicated a new blog specifically geared towards the (orrin woodward team scam) – http://www.teamscam.com
Hmmm…looks like the Dickie’s jumped the Monavie ship and now there latest scam is Protandim (just as bad if not worse than Monavie).
http://www.lvnmedia.com/post/2010/12/17/Carrie-Dickie-Elite-Pro-7.aspx
These asses didn’t learn their lesson at all. They just didn’t want to go down with the Monavie ship. But they are right back to ripping people off with another Utah based snakeoil antioxidant pyramid scam. Disgusting!
webelieved-those that did sell the “system” during the waiting period(pre-MonaVie) to “the promised land/ Walmart of the internet” were suppose to get paid for that and then they “changed the deal, again” and took that money away. “Changing the Deal”-that they critisize the corporate world for doing, Hypocrisy again! Yea they don’t know when they reach the “desert” they will die of thirst because they will have nothing left!
Their Hypocrisy, lies and deception, is common, standard practice!
Well, here’s a quote I saw today on Twitter from Orrin..
“You can tell the size of the leader by the way they treat people who cannot help them.” -Orrin Woodward
Let me tell you, if that’s the truth then Orrin is a friggin midget! He uses people for HIS success. One need only go to DVD’s and CDs when he would edify the hell out of Both Pastor Dickie and his son Bob. But once the crap hit the fan and Bob resigns Orrin couldn’t start trashing him quick enough. The lies that are being told inside the Team Home Office to the Staff (who absolutely loved Bob) to tarnish their view of him are horrendous. It’s been told to me that Orrin has blamed profit loss on the former CEO.
Orrin is really good at quoting books…Like this one..
“A True Leader looks out the window when things are going good, but looks in the mirror when things are going bad”
I guess Orrin may still believe that, but he must have installed two way mirrors in his house! You can guess what side is facing his mug!
@Speak Your Truth – no offence taken, there was a lot of things I didn’t realise about TEAM, perhaps it’s because I never involved myself in gossip, politics, and leaders’ lives, etc, just focused mainly on the juice, and TEAM (as a leadership development system – or so I thought!) secondly. I admit I didn’t totally understand that TEAM was actually a separate business until I was a few months into the business – lol lots to learn for this slow thinker! *blush*
Just wish things were simple again…
One Time Fly
Oh seems Orrin has created a new quote to belittle and berate people to serve his agenda and try and strip people of their crediblity.
He also BELIEVES, if you are not for him, you are against Him, hence why he tries to destory others character and looks at them as an enemy!
This is no surprise, typical and notorious, he is the only one whom can speak from the throne and all should believe him!
“You can tell the size of the leader by the way they treat people who cannot help them.” -Orrin Woodward
This one use to be his touted one:
“You can tell the size of the person by the size of the things that make them angry.”
Oh boy I could really go off on a tangent on this one!
Narcissitic.. Hmmmm… very telling!
Here are the 9 criteria. Having 5 of these 9 “qualifies” you as a narcissist…
1)Feels grandiose and self-importance (e.g., exaggerates achievements and talents to the point of lying, demands to be recognized as superior without commensurate achievements)
2)Is obsessed with fantasies of unlimited success, fame, fearsome power or omnipotence, unequalled brilliance (the cerebral narcissist), bodily beauty or sexual performance (the somatic narcissist), or ideal, everlasting, all-conquering love or passion
3)Firmly convinced that he or she is unique and, being special, can only be understood by, should only be treated by, or associate with, other special or unique, or high-status people (or institutions)
4)Requires excessive admiration, adulation, attention and affirmation – or, failing that, wishes to be feared and to be notorious (narcissistic supply).
5)Feels entitled. Expects unreasonable or special and favourable priority treatment. Demands automatic and full compliance with his or her expectations
6)Is “interpersonally exploitative”, i.e., uses others to achieve his or her own ends
7)Devoid of empathy. Is unable or unwilling to identify with or acknowledge the feelings and needs of others
8)Constantly envious of others or believes that they feel the same about him or her
9)Arrogant, haughty behaviours or attitudes coupled with rage when frustrated, contradicted, or confronted.
The language in the criteria above is based on or summarized from:
American Psychiatric Association. (1994). Diagnostic and statistical manual of mental disorders, fourth edition (DSM IV). Washington, DC: American Psychiatric Association.
Izzy-
I too wish things could be simple again and now with time adjusting has been very difficult but definitely am “Fired-Up” I am gone.
Not to disrespect and or defer from the pain you suffered, it is all too much sometimes. I have to say I wish I stood where you are and never got close to people to destroy and manipulate for so many years, you were the wiser one.
Here is a tweet from Orrin Woodward today: Finances are mathematics applied to life, regrettably, few paid attention in math class. 🙂
“Really Orrin? So you are teaching TEAM business distributors finances and how to make good choices with their money, correct? Then how many have become successful under your financial guru wisdom that you have given them? Less than .05% of the people that join Team/Monavie have made anything over $118/mo according to the last income disclosure statement provided by MonaVie. Looks like 99% of your followers have failed miserably following your advice and the sad part is, is that you have convinced them that they are ON THEIR WAY…when in reality, they are only on their way to going BROKE. With those kind of results I would say that 99% of your class got an F (and that is not a 58% grade, if we are rating your followers based on their income to debt ratio…then 99% of your distributors probably only would earn a whopping 1% grade on their math exam) BOOM GOES THE DYNAMITE
I can’t contain myself tonight. Too many funny things happening out there on Orrin Woodward’s Twitter wall.
Orrin is trying to talk some poor college fellow into joining his business. That is the worst thing that could happen to a young college students life. Right now they need to focus on their grades, friends and getting a JOB that after they graduate that can pull in REAL money for their future and their family. You can follow part of the Orrin Woodward conversation on this poor college students twitter profile here: http://twitter.com/howardJonson (HOPEFULLY, he will have the wisdom to RUN and say NO to drugs!!)
Speak Your Truth – “He also BELIEVES, if you are not for him, you are against Him, hence why he tries to destory others character and looks at them as an enemy!”
That is a great quote and so true. I am also glad that you posted the 9 criteria on narcissists as well. That was very enlightening to say the least. Being with the team over the years and watching the way Orrin operates, I can say that this is a good description of his persona. Orrin and Chris are always looking to blame other people for their lack of results in the business or if someone decides to quit and this bashing, de-edifying and talking down on type behavior trickles down to everyone in the team. you are taught to view people that quit as losers, thumb suckers, nose pickers and all of the other lame terms that they come up with. Not too CHRISTIAN like either I might add, being that they like to flaunt their christian rhetoric on stage. Seems to be a little bit of hypocrisy there. Just a smudge! (Sarcasm intended)
I want to throw up when I see the way others have been treated and the way I was treated when I finally decided to leave the team. They cannot allow you to leave in peace, otherwise people would question why you left and if the leaders do not have a good answer then people will start to question whether or not the business works….and we all know that Orrin and the leaders do not want people to think for themselves.
If current distributors in team would just stop for a minute and think clearly on this subject they could not lie to themselves about this and they would easily say “You know what, you’re right! Come to think of it, every time someone leaves there is always a negative story or slur behind that departure.” I was in the business for 7 + years and every time someone quit or a big leader left, there was never a positive story or comment about it. EVER! That stems from the leadership from team and the information at the top spreading down.
So much for practicing what you preach! These guys truly are one person on stage and someone different (much worse) off of stage. Not really winning too many friends with these tactics, to play on one of their top books that they promote by Dale Carnegie. I think Hollywood made a movie about them a few years back: HOW TO LOSE FRIENDS AND ALIENATE PEOPLE
Will-
I love your “BOOM GOES THE DYNAMITE!”
In all seriousness it is very heart wrenching to hear how so many people have been “treated!”Our experience was enough but not even close to being isolated in that it was destructive.
I wish I was at liberty to share others stories,(I hope they find their way to release it) it is appalling!
There is no doubt that they are “dictators,” “cult, no doubt in my mind” and try and control every area of your life and worse “your thinking!”
This is a delluisional and narcisstic believe (or “wrong” or “we need to correct your thinking” or ” we have to get you to “buy In”,as Orrin soooo many times will tell you from stage and to your face, again narcissistic and controlling! Glad the the ” 9 critera” helped, I am in no way claiming I am a Pyschiatrist or anything close, but it definetly helped me in some understanding.
I will say this he told a friend of mine “You have to hit a certain level before you can point out any descrepencies, focus on what you can control!”
So in other words “shut up” and go build your business! He hated it when you would bring up the “wrongs that were going on, there couldn’t possibly be anything wrong with “MY” system or leaders, THAT” I” CREATED” and beleive me leaders only brought them up when they WERE WRONG and went against their OWN TEACHINGS!
His standard answer is: “Do you want to be Rich or Do you want to be Right!”I and others weren’t trying to “be right” WE WERE TRYING TO DO RIGHT!”
You can’t have FREEDOM,”free enterprise” when you have dictators, just watch the history being created in Egypt!
If he would only take his own advice, and use the “Christian Principles” he so crams down others throats, face his own “brutal reality” scan his own memory of ALL those that rejected him and WHY they left. He may (doubtful) feel (he tells you not to pay attention to feelings, hmmm….) then I think he would be crushed under his own conscience!
I am sorry I ramble so much, and if I am irrating to you Amthrax you can let me know, I will find or create another spot to vent, just want you to know this is very healing and for all of us under this oppression for so long has to find a way to release it.
Better yet, “You can tell the size of the leader by the way they treated people that did help them” -Webelieved
In all humility, that is the truth!
“Real” leaders are highly self-critical and they also actively seek feedback, whether it’s positive or negative. Woodworm seeks to squelch any and all criticism, and he displays none of the qualities of good leadership. Nonetheless, he expects to be edified (translation — deified) by his minions. I honestly don’t know how anyone could put this idiot on a pedestal; he should instead be sitting in a corner wearing a dunce cap.
Vogel
You are one of commentators that I cannot help but laugh hysterically when I read your comments.
Funny you bring up the dunce cap because he tells a story and I believe it is on a cd about “what he use to be like before he became a “genius,” leadership guru, number 1 best seller on wall street journal, Time” Forbes (telling),( for all I know he is saying the LLR is what the President himself, lives, eats and breaths and running the country on, and whatever else he could manipulate you to believe.)
Back to the dunce story, he got drunk one time and when he woke up he had a lamp shade on his head. I am still laughing!
Vogel
Sorry I got so wrapped up in the joy of laughing hysterically, that I forgot to mention the very valid point you make on “Real” leaders.
Orrin makes people believe and lets those words roll off his lips as though he does “self-critical,” “brutal reality” and accepts “feedback” but as the statement from their own rhetoric goes:
“YOUR ACTIONS SPEAK SO LOUDLY, I CAN’T HEAR YOUR WORDS.” Which by the way is way true for me and many others.
They would could have been more respected had they taken up a career in the circus as a magician/illusionist. This is their game.
I know a judge in Deteoit found Orrin Woodward, Chris Brady and Tim Marks GUILTY and ordered them to pay 25 million dollars to Amway, however they later settled. Some people on team believe this settlement means that Orrin and his cronies are innocent and that just makes me laugh!! just because someone settles a suit in court does not mean the party at fault is magically void of any wrong doings!! Just goes to show how team folk are brainwashed and no able to think for themselves. The fact still remains…….Orrin Woodward was found GUILTY in the court of law! WAkE Up pEOpLE!!!!
The Woodwards will say at conventions that they are in a lawsuit, but they’ll make it look like THEY are the victims and not the other way around. I know this because back in 2010 it was mentioned at one and I didn’t even know about it. I wasn’t there but the TEAM friend (before I left TEAM) was saying “too bad Orrin and Laurie are in that lawsuit, I hope it all gets worked out”. The TEAM followers will believe the leaders as gospel truth, so if they hear of legal action, it’s always TEAM’s version that they’ll hear and believe.
RE: OWesladouche;
Your comments are very true, but keep in mind that all of the ‘leaders’ on Team who followed Orrin, Chris and Tim from Amway to Monavie were involved in bringing their own networks over to Monavie. At the time it felt like a gold rush and even though it might have been wrong (proven guilty in court)… all of the Team members didn’t know the ‘entire’ storey, all they knew was that they were surpressed while with Amway and had a much better chance of ‘achieving their dreams’ if they moved to Monavie, so they followed. At the Team seminars, the fire was fueled by underlining hits at Teams position as a David fighting a Goliath. The reason why the ‘people’ on Team won’t wake up is because of ‘success stories within the Team’.
I’ve seen many leaders who’ve achieved a level of success – Round Table (Having two legs at a system count of 50, and a third leg with a system count of 25), Turbo 25-50-100 (Having two legs at 25 system count = Turbo 25) and they worked their guts out to get to this level… 6-7 nights a week, years on the Team, and then 3-6 months later… they fall back to half of this level, to have to start all over. BUT its when they hit this level… EVERYONE on the Team get’s energized… wow! If they can do it, I can do it mentality, but NO ONE really knows what it takes to hit that level, and 99 % of people will not change their entire life to make the Team become their ENTIRE lifestyle. Therefore, because this EXTREME lifestyle is NOT duplicatable… it takes leaders FOREVER to achieve a certain level of success. Most of the leaders at these levels have been involved for 5+years, and many 10+years with very little to show for it. This is the REAL reason why Orrin can keep his overall Team together… five success stories on a stage in front of 10,000 people keeps 9,995 people hoping that it can ‘happen’ for them too… without a realistic understanding of the TRUE amount of work, sacrifice, severed relationships, absentness from your family and financial ruin involved to achieve it. Iron certainly sharpens iron, as does the blind leading the blind.
@OWesladouche
It is astonishing how they are found guilty, and of what all know is true because they did tell us when to resign, that alone should wake people up, shine some light on his grand Character.
I remember Orrin stating show me one person that I told to leave (paraphrasing). Unbelievable, seriously who does he think believes that BS?
He seriously needs a check-up from the neck up!
But I would bet that anyone that is still following has not read that lawsuit, the only information they would get would be from the Policy Council, and you must already know how they will do and say anything to protect that “false image.”
What is up with Tim Marks and the something like 17,000 hidden doc.?
That should follow in with their Christian teachings, right?
There must be some hidden Christian book somewhere that says it is ok to lie and deceive and break the law!
He also talked to a bunch of people during the gag order, which I guess if you are Orrin you are an exception to any laws!
It is nothing shy of amazing what people will people under the spell!
@Amy S.
I agree! If people only knew, they had more Diamonds that broke before who are not Diamonds now at least not on there Leadership page, I can think of 3! So, so much for the growth anyone with a team knows they are not coming close to what they tout about growth!
It seems the only way they can break any new levels now or keep those qualified (in Team) would be to give those “choosen Leaders” system counts and tickets from groups they never even built, let alone knew those people, at least this “fakes out” the new guy!
They base their fight on “free enterprise” it is really disturbing when you “give people someone else’s system & tickets” it is sickening on all his guru teachings and Chris’s EARN IT CD, and that he is against (gov/scams, people who want something for nothing, etc) and then tout “You Never Ever lower the bar.”
This is socialist behavior and they think they have kept this hidden from the masses, while those same people speak on their stages and tell them, just do what the leaders do, etc.etc..! Again words cannot express the Hypocrisy!
There is nothing new under the sun, Orrin has been using the same “system” since back in the early 90’s ( but of course they have changed in some ways but the teachings are basically the same, they don’t say Amway!) which he stole all his information from those building the Amway buiness, “systems”, Dexter was his hero.
I just wish people could use their common sense and quit worshipping him and others because when you get out you can See this so clearly!
Idol worshipping is definetly not taught in the bible.
Someday this will catch up to them!
Wow, so what did Tim Marks do exactly? He hid 17,000+ documents from Quixtars lawyers during the time of ‘Discovery,’ or what exactly does that refer too?
You can’t get more dis-honest than that. The more I learn the more disgusted I get at this group of so called leaders.
@Will
Yep- Them Honest Christian, Men of Integrity!
I’m sure we must be mistaken though or got misinformation or didn’t read it correctly or aren’t smart enough or don’t have all those “pesky little facts”, that only the “Superior thinkers have” or made an error, that couldn’t be the truth, or could it!
Our Diamond repeatedly told everyone they are a “Think Tank” ” The Assembly of the Greatest Minds ever put together IN THE WORLD!” so us lowly builders must have it wrong!
Speaking of a man of integrity, Orrin woodward is at it again. His latest scam is a church in florida and they have him speaking at an event this weekend. These poor people at this church need to be warned whats coming there way. They are in deep trouble.
Orrin Woodward is speaking at a conference Feb 25-26th called the CrossLife Conference: http://crosschurch.net/crosslife-conference-who-do-you-say-that-i-am/ He is one of five speakers. His topic to speak on is “He (God not Orrin) is the light of the world”. This church needs to be warned ASAP about what Orrin Woodward is really all about!!!!
@teamdeception
I believe you are right. This is very sad those people have no idea what is about to hit them.
How would the warning come?
I believe it would take a pastor to sound that warning for it to be taken seriously enough.
I hope someone has contact with a pastor – I would notify one if I knew who to contact, but well….I’m just here in Canada, and I don’t know who to contact myself.
Greetings ya’ll! I’m new to this stuff but I can hold back no longer. I was in the Guzzardo org. I was there before the Team was even “The Team”. After reading through all these posts and contemplating whether I should throw in a comment for a long time I’ve decided to go for it. I am nervous about the lawsuit stuff so I will be very careful to not divulge my identity. I basically agree with 95% (ha ha) of whats been said. Some of the personal attacks may be a little harsh but I thoroughly understand as I’ve been there myself. I reached Turbo 100 (and then some in leg three) several times only to lose some to “die back”, entered sapphire qualification several times only to lose some to “die back”. Each time the attitude was “Fine I’ll replace you with two!” And I did. Again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. well you get the point right? One can only do this for so long before the rose colored glasses crack (to coin a phrase). There was really no one thing that pushed me to the edge. It was more of a conglomeration of all the issues previously mentioned in “yous guys” posts. I have never been nor will I ever be a kiss ass. That being the case I knew it would be harder to advance but like it or not you can’t ignore numbers. Or so I thought. After not receiving the same edification for levels achieved numerous times suffice it to say I was a bit disenchanted with the whole mess. I’ll stop for now because I don’t want to get long winded. I’ll elaborate more down the road. Thanks for the therapy!
@iquit – Welcome to the discussion. Looking forward to hearing more from you in the future.
Since you quit, do you know how your absence has been communicated to your group and the rest of the organization?
Hi, this is Izzy, lol, I just got a new WordPress blog because I finally decided to migrate from my Windows Live Spaces. Nothing to really to see yet, tho.
Anyway, I Quit, I’m glad that you were able to get out of this awful cult, and I do hope you are doing okay. I know it can be rough leaving the TEAM, I mean I was in denial about a lot of stuff when I first left, not even wanting to call a spade a spade. Anyway, be rest assured that you have lots of support, ok? And check out http://www.juicescam.com – a lot of use ex-TEAMers are there as well.
Cheers, mate!
@I quit
I am so sorry to hear the same old broken record, but am not surprised and wonder how long it will take for others to speak up!
I feel your pain!
You have found your real friends, that would love to see you heal from the undescriable lies, deception, false edification, etc… I totally understand your passion (anger).
There is alot of good information on the cult’s that will help!
When it comes down to it the Power & greed is all they care about!
Welcome to the “negative 95% er’s LOL!!!!!
Those that face reality, an unplug from the Matrix!
Can you guys get me up to speed on: the pastor Dickie situation, the Bob Dickie resignation and why did some of the Diamonds bail out of the Team? I just need the bullet points! Thx. I’m out of touch on all things Team. Intentionally. But you’ve peaked my interest.
@Iquit
Pastor Dickie does not speak for the Team anymore, but if you know him I would give him a call and ask him for those answers. He really is a good man you might want to share why you left.
There is a commentor on either this site or juicescam? That explains the legacy departure. I personally know some things but would not be appropriate to share.
It really would be hard to get the whole truth unless you could talk with these people.
How long have you been out?
Hey Amthrax- no I don’t know how my absense is being explained. I’d be curious to hear it though…
Hey Speak- I too moved with the masses from Q to MV. I wasn’t overly thrilled to do so but I knew my whole group would be gone and I sure as hell wasn’t gonna flush all that time, money and hard work!!! I didn’t want to be a miracle juice salesman and still don’t. I went to a couple of the new idea opens and was not impressed. I spoke at a lot of opens in the Q model and at least felt good (not great) about the products offered. But I could NOT see myself promoting the nectar of the gods. I went to 2 seminars geared toward the new model and was almost ill. I went to one major after that and the final nail was in the coffin. My wife and I had a long discussion and pulled the plug. It was easier for her since her belief had been gone for some time. The tools played a major role in the decision. A pack for this a pack for that, Many with one or more of the same cd’s there-in. Books written by Woody and Brad containing in print the same phrases that are on many cd’s. It was obvious to us that all this does is generate tool/$ flow. First nite packs changing every 3-6 months so your supply in the trunk is obsolete and useless before any dust even formed… There. Thats my next installment.
I posted information about Legacy (ex-TEAM Diamonds forming their own organization) here:
@Amthrax thanks for posting that for I quit, I appreciate it! Sometimes my memory fails me, you know still trying to “clear the fog” and deprogram! No I have to be honest, I really need improvement!
@I Quit
It really is a breath of fresh air to hear someone else has seen the light, so to speak!
I can totally relate to the over abundance of junk tools!
It was making me angry when I found 3 of same Cd’s with 3 different stickers on them(one for every company, and one for every new design and different packs!) I have been going through ours 4000 of them, over 100 dvd’s ! I just ripped up all the (10) team receipt books, packs and packs of brochures, newspapers, (on that miracle juice), well over 50 cd packs(took cds out tore up cardboard) and burned it all, yesterday! I am free!
I just wish I had the money (add that up), for all that junk, we really could be retired!(did that too)
For the sake of repeating myself I share some of why we left on this site, let me know if your “profit-sharing” was stolen from you too.
I feel guilty for clogging up the earth with this garbage, every time I go to the dump! I had already taken 6000 tapes (yes it dates us) to the dump this past summer! I did donate 1 of each of everything to a good cause though(now that is some POSITIVE, people come on here and say it’s all negative!) Took a bunch of the books to half off, and they wouldn’t even take them (only a couple) they told me they would shred them for me though, ha!
We still have 4 full books shelves still! We have a total of 10 book shelves!
We sold some. We still have LLR’s from the cases we bought, I wouldn’t even sell those, they should be shredded!
A great friend and Team builder (you would know) and our spouses would brain storm on what to do with these junk cd’s!
We came up with disco ball (my favorite), fill kids walls with shiney side out, baby mobile and others!
I even thought about starting a blog to get ideas, ha!
It really was a healing moment, we laughed so hard we cried!!!!
I am sure we know each other and spoke at the same opens,we spoke for years at their seminars, it is really painful (brainwashing & promotion), but like you I DO NOT MISS IT!
The worst was when the reality hit of all those years waisted away from our kids and family, and each and every person on our team that we felt we hurt, it really was excruciating, and still don’t have the words, and am still dealing with that, all for a LIE!
I decided and it has been sent up for over a month, just haven’t written yet, but a blog on the things I am learning on social and mind control, amongst other things. I believe this would help in my healing and others too.
My friend and I have even checked out some cult experts too and are planning on going to a; you guessed it, SEMINAR, but not even close, ha, this is on cult’s, recommended by some experts.
Didn’t mean to end on such a sad note but the need for healing cannot be denied! It feels great to be FREE!
They have stolen way too much from way too many and enough, is enough!
@I Quit
I love the “nectar of gods”, that is priceless!
Wow speak- you definitely had a serious trunk! Over the years I learned to keep a trunk that was commenstruate to tool flow. Yes I know that was against all advice from upline but they weren’t paying for it were they?! I still ended up with a s*^tload of waste too. I laughed when you mentioned tapes. Wanna know how I got rid of mine? I left all five big boxes up in the attic when our house was sold! The new owner must have gotten a laugh out of that! I wonder if half price books will want any of my brand new stock? Was it worth the effort?
Oh and speak- no I did not have my profit sharing stolen. I lost that due to my numbers crashing and burning (again)after the MV shift. Surprise! (not) That prompts a question- Why did this happen to some and how did the Team justify this? I was disconnected completely so I never knew this even happened. That is just plain theft in my mind. I await your answer with bated breath…
@ I Quit
I am cracking up about your tapes! I hope they didn’t listen to them they would need deprogramed!
You have to watch the Movie, “Believe” on multi-level marketing, it is hystrical but chillingly true, I found out who my character is!
When we first watched it, we were shocked and embarassed but it is hilarious, the guy who plays in it acts and looks just like Jim Carey!
Yep the tool trunk, I remember when Our Diamond(wasn’t a Diamond then) another leader on our team and us went to check who had the biggest trunk because the “Guru” told us too, low and behold we had the biggest and we were the brokest, imagine that!
Not to mention embarassing for our upline!
Can you say hook, line and sinker!
Half price books only takes the most current books, I didn’t think the ones I had were out dated but apparently so, they were brand new to me, ha!
Besides they don’t pay squat for them!
The Policy Council I think has lost their minds and in turn lost all the builders because of pride, need for power, ego, and greed.
The way they take people out is appalling!
I wonder how much longer they can fake it!
Didn’t you try an conflict resolution?
Sarcasim intended, because we know it’s their way or the highway!
@ Amthrax
I just remember another reason they say people leave,
(Orrin mentions this slickly in one of his blog post about “if people were concerned they would come to them and of course they would satisfy their customers, another LIE.)
This is a line they get others to buy into; was because “they didn’t go to the guru to conflict resolution! Believe me he throws this in people’s face, take it from someone with the experience!
We tried that for years and the only way to resolve anything is to not question and just agree!Cult!
That of course is after Orrin tells you your thinking is off and he needs to correct it!
This strokes his ego and allows him to continue to feel “Superior.”
This is crazy in the Real World!
BTW Pastor Dickie is who taught “conflict resolution”, even came out on a cd and it is very telling that he no longer is with the team.
Hmm..just raises some logical questions doesn’t it.
@ I Quit
Why did this happen to some and how did the Team justify this?
Well long story of LIES during the transition when we left Q,(not to mention the 4 grand there we gave up overnight because They decided for us) we were making double digit income (before the coma) and imediately this income went down to about a flat $500 per month.
Now this is all without an explanation and remember ORRIN SAID HE WAS USING ANYONES MONEY BUT HIS OWN FOR LAWSUITS!
So you tell me how they figure because Orrin says “figures don’t lie but liars sure do figure!” Our system count did even drop 1 during this time and I have proof!
So what would any leader or human being for that matter do to feed his family and pay his bills, duh, look for a way to do just that!
So we were looking for a way to PAY OUR BILLS, and was “checking out” other income streams, when low and behold they started spreading lies
( and secret meetings to de-edify and get people to buy into this AND MAKE US THE ENEMY) But the TRUTH of the matter is we stood up to their IMMORAL and UNETHICAL PRACTICES, and a whole lot more to the story, this is how they justify taking our income and that is exactly what they did!
So much for the on-going, passive, residual, “b-type” (bogus-Orrin Owns That system @ least he does now), forever, willable income, BULLSH$$T! You have no idea there is so much more!
There is no way to share it all, especially here.
We asked for the contract, they refused(said we could travel to view it but they were “exercising their rights” and voided out the old without letting anyone know, and made a new contract and then said we could pay to go to another seminar to sign the new one, THE NERVE of these liars!!!!
We are NOT the only ones this happen too, I do know of some more Big leaders that this same thing happened to!
Lots of bold-faced lies, assumtions, without a call, said they did, which was another BOLD-FACED LIE but by this time they had already justified this, and poisioned the minds of some!
We had tons of people quit from their unethical and immoral practices for sure!
I will write a book someday!
Speak- Guess its a good thing I quit when I did. Cuz I certainly would have after shenannigens like that! WOW!!
I’ve been digesting your last post speak and I still am in shock. This sure ain’t the team oriented, we’re on a mission from/for God, I love you man, I’m proud of you man, you can do it behavior one should expect from such fine Christian men of integrity. Holy crap I just can’t believe it!!
@I Quit
Yep and some of those leaders that are still there know this truth and still follow “because they don’t see it this way” because they are going on what they think is “proof” by a little over zealousness of someone who was also trying to survive, that didn’t prove anything because they didn’t follow up to see if it was true!
What they believe is “truth” came from them reading someone’s PRIVATE EMAIL, Yep, illegal, immoral!!!!!!!!! that one of the guru stated himself, BIG MISTAKE, Try and Deny that one to God! (then which they denined after they were confronted!) Shame on them!
I wonder how they will justify this to God?
I can hear it now, wait, wait, I will just get all those who edify me and believe I am “Superior” and “Leading People to the Truth” all of them will tell you I did this for your kingdom!
For the life of me I do not know how they justify the things they do and have done!
Yep I am sure they have found “legal loopholes” and in their minds they probably think this is justified, and already know most of what they say is their “side of the story” and to use their own words “God first all the rest need data” (that is close to what they say, anyway)
When does “legal trump moral?”(maybe on this planet in some minds and certainly not by what they themselves teach!
But I don’t believe that would do anything for anyone when we answer to the God of Heaven!
They can coerce and manipulate some human minds, but they honestly have to be insane to think they have HIDDEN anything from GOD!
I have concluded they have no conscience,( they will come back and say they made some “errors and they aren’t perfect” and everyone sins including me, because we won’t work it out with you, seriously this is INSANE! Yeah, yeah heard that a thousand times to justify your unlawful, immoral, unethical,practices )and only justify to themselves and believe the “end justifies their means”, good luck with that one!
They are so Arrogant they honestly think people should come to them, UNBELIEVABLE, MOST everyone I know DON’T trust a thing they do let alone ANYTHING they say!
How does one even describe this arrogance?!!! I bet Vogel would do a great job!
What comes around goes around and GOD is JUST and see’s how they have lied and hurt so many people. THAT IS WHERE I PUT MY TRUST!
This is what I loathe the most and believe it is the worst abuse and know they will pay for this, but they have “the policy counsel” preaching on Sundays @ the major’s not a one is an ordained minister or Pastor that I know of ( could have changed since we left but doubtful)
If they really do read their bible then they should know they will be held accountable, to a higher standard, and OH BOY, I don’t believe God is going to ask to hear their edification and how they are Honest, Honorable,Godly, full of pure Integrity, Character etc..!
I will leave God who knows all to do the judging!
Lastly, one of the policy counsel that I know for a fact doesn’t even attend church and never did the whole time I knew him, and they have him preaching to the masses! He told a leader “Orrin taught him how to read the bible, he doesn’t need to go to church!”
I sincerely fear God for these people and all the ones that are following, KNOWING(they can’t claim ignorance) these truths but sweep it under the rug and justify their actions all for the Almight Dollar, to give the impression they are Christian and they think to change the culture of the World!
I believe this is seriously a CULT, and everything I have read, confirms this!
Jesus Christ is the only one who SAVES!
My faith and relationship is very private to me and don’t like to bring it into this but you can’t not deny or leave it out because this is what they do.
Yes, I am angry to put it lightly ( I don’t think there is a word in the English
language), but only because of the destruction,deception, lies,cover-ups, unlawful,unethical,immoral things that they have done to hurt so many people and continue to follow! I am still praying!
Laurie herself told me “as long as it is RIGHTEOUS anger, it is ok” and you know I have to obey!!
Not that I would ever again take advice from any who I do not trust.
@webelieved
That is very scary how full of themselves they are and they want people to blindly follow!
Thank God they did what they did, I am soooo glad to be away from these lies!
I am so sorry that you have suffered also!
@webelieved
I really am sorry and don’t have any more time but can comment maybe later, I am not ignoring you,I agree the irony of it all!
There is hope though and have and can move on to the genuine purpose for your life!
So it really angers me when people try and justify and come on here like people don’t have anything better to do but make up bogus crap about what happens to people.
As I said the TRUTH will come out and when it does then sites, like these won’t hear us “ranting, spreading negative”
Well I am sorry for some the TRUTH many appear negative (and I 100% agree, when your trying to protect something) but it is very POSITIVE to those who lived it and can share and maybe by a glimmer of hope, those won’t deny the TRUTH any longer and do what most here did and gave up everthing to live with a clear conscience not matter what the cost!!!!!
I’m at a loss for words. I feel so sorry for you guys. Now I can understand why there is such anger. Knife in the back doesn’t even begin to describe the feeling I’m sure. I didn’t even experience it and I’m royally pissed off!! People of integrity expect to be believed. But when they’re not they let time prove them right. Remember that one? DAMN.
Hey believed, Was it you who said you were checking out other biz or was that someone else? I can’t find who said it! What’d ya come up with? Anyway what are you doin now? Have you recovered fully financially yet? I hope so, sounds like it was pretty rough there for a bit… I’m back in the world of 95%, left side money making. AND I’M HAPPY DOING IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
OUCH.
I been following this all day, and am thinking of my own upline. She is very driven, and can get personals underneath her easily. She’s also a strong Christian, and she wants to be the first Black single lady who speaks on stage. She’s really upset that only married couples go up and talk. I wonder if she has seen any shenanigens :-s
Anyway, all I can do is hope and pray the Woody/Brady duo gets caught.
I have given away a box of TEAM stuff to another TEAM member, who was stuggling in her business at one time. Now she deleted from her facebook because she can’t deal with my negativity against TEAM. Big Ouch. I still have one more box of TEAM stuff, I think I will use it as campfire fuel. I wouldn’t give them to my former upline because she was so selfish with me that I just don’t want to do anything for her.
@I quit – I’m so sorry you lost a lot, it is devastating. I wish I can help…*sigh* I can listen and sympathise…
*hugs*
Oops, I meant @webelieved, who lost everythig, I really, truly hope you can find help. My apologies for the mixup. *blush*
@webelieved – btw it’s me, Izzy, I just got a new wordpress acct and apparently it’s signing me in using this name automatically, so I’ll keep it like this.
I was very, very lucky that my husband never fell for it in the first place and even put his foot down when I wanted to go to the United States for the Feb. 2010 convention. But I’ll tell you just how cold my uplines were (mine upline and my upline’s upline) – they even tried to make me stay EVEN AFTER I proved to them that ***ALL*** of my credit (2 cards and line of credit) were MAXED OUT! They said I didn’t try hard enough, and it would be different if I was Go-Getter for seven months. They will not take no for an answer.
One thing a minister at my husband’s church said really stood out in my mind. She said “It’s okay to say no!” And she emphasised it. TEAM really does take away (or so it seems) your ability to say no. I believe it’s the most important thing anyone should remember. Being able to say no literally takes away that power from upper-team members. I did try to say no to my upline a few times but she did use slick words to keep me in the business. It hurt that she pressed me to continue when I showed her my credit card statements. We’ve known her for 20 years! The key is, to make sure you are able to stick up for yourself and MEAN no.
Anyway, keep on repeating myself….*sigh*
Just tell anyone you know that it’s okay to say no. It doesn’t make you a bad person.
webelieved:
I wouldn’t be surprised if Claude Hamilton made this comment: “I dont want to sound like Hitler, but we have superior knowledge.” ???
We want to thank all of you for sharing your stories of truth. This is my first post, I’ve never done this before but I feel compelled to share our story.
We quit the Team 6 months ago and it was the best decision. We were on the Team for almost 3 years. When it was all said and done, we had accumilated over 20k in credit card debt to keep up with the meetings and materials because of this ‘business’. We heard that a ‘Policy Council’ member (not mentioning any names but their picture is on the front of the Team website) has declared bankrupcy multiple times since joining Team. I wonder how they can have ‘financial’ cd’s in the system preaching on finances when they can’t handle their own finances? This is when we realized the smoke and mirrors and decided this wasn’t the right business for us anymore. Another thing to consider… (my husband is an accountant) … run the math…
$25 for a local seminar ticket.
If a policy council member has 2000 tickets in his group, this is $50,000 in revenue. Now because of Profit Sharing, perhaps 50% goes into a pot to be shared, but ‘perhaps’ 50% goes directly into the pockets of this Policy Council member?
$25,000 per month JUST on local semianr tickets. These numbers are realistic. Perhaps the overall Team is sells 10,000 tickets per month. At $25 per ticket (or $30) this is a lot of money… $250,000. WHO SPLITS THIS MONEY?
It’s mostly the Policy Council and Round Table members (20 people?) this is where the real money is being made. The thousands of others who are hard working are slaves to the few.
God Bless and I hope you make the right decision for your family.
I CAN’T BELIEVE that The Team office just posted on the Team website… Orin and Chris have made the list onto the list of Leadership Gurus of 2011!!!!!!!!!! Yahoooo! Yipee! Horray!
Who is this company which creates this list??? It’s a company called:
Leadership Gurus International
121 Arundel Rd,
Birmingham B14 5UE
United Kingdom
**** Please pass me a beer****
This is a website which people go to to vote on who ‘THEY’ think should be the Top Leadership Guru’s… this is BALONEY!!!!
This list is NOT factual. I could create a list/website today and call it the GREATEST MEN WHO LIVE ON EARTH. And if 34 people vote for me, then I’m considered the GREATEST MAN on Earth (which I’m not disputing). This list of Leadership gurus is toted by Orrin, Chris and the Team office (and speakers on stage) as if it’s the Trilateral Commission of the World. This is so fake and overzealous, it makes me want to puke!
PEOPLE WAKE UP! Orrin and Chris are ONLY on this list because Team members (brainwashed) think they walk on water and breath fire. I know they don’t breath fire (Im not sure of the water) but this is a JOKE… Top Leadership Guru’s for 2011…LOL Give me a break!!!
**** pass me another beer, this blog is heating up****
Amthrax: You should move this original post from Nov 10th, 2010 to the top of your blog. It seems like the main topic of conversation… a repost would be kool, thanks for what you do. ~Cheers!
I have to agree with TRUTH SEEKER here: “Amthrax: You should move this original post from Nov 10th, 2010 to the top of your blog. It seems like the main topic of conversation… a repost would be kool, thanks for what you do. ~Cheers!”
Also, I am sorry that I missed out on this thread the past two days. HOLY TORPEDO BATMAN, that was ALOT to take in!!
First of all, @webelieved and @Speak Your Truth – Your stories ECHO everything that my family has experienced over the years. I have been bitter and trying to bounce back, but it is a slow journey back to the light (at least for me). I feel like there is no justice and that is the hardest pill for me to swallow right now. I am beyond SICK of hearing all about everyone’s similar stories on how they were hurt, mis-lead, lied to and SCREWED in this organization. The madness needs to STOP!
I too threw out close to $7,000 in brand new tools that I had purchased for my trunk and tools that I got stuck with after people in my team would drop off system and leave me with the bill. This was pre direct fulfillment days where individual ibos could not get their tools drop shipped straight to their door step. Because of this I had to purchase all of the TAPES and CDS for my entire group and distribute the tools and collect monies. I am sure I am bringing up some painful memories for you all as you remember doing the same damn thing. The crappiest policy that the Team office had that Orrin Woodward would sell to us profit sharers, is that there was NO REFUND POLICY and that we were responsible for any tools that did not get sold!! REMEMBER THIS #$%&??? For those of you that do not know this, I promise I am not making it up…I couldn’t come up with something that skewed if I tried. Orrin would say “It is your business and you need to be responsible for any tools and tickets that people don’t want.” I remember getting stuck easily with $200 /mo just in tools and tickets because people would drop off system and not pay you. And ORRINS answer was TOUGH LUCK!!! How does this guy ever think that he will make it to 1 Million People????
Maybe he will get close to that mark, but he won’t GET to a million…
rather
he will GO THRU a million!
The sad part is that is true. He is just burning thru new blood each month. Hopefully, people that are still in will slowly wake up, see the signs and pay attention to the LACK OF RESULTS .
@webelieved and @Speak Your Truth – You both kind of hinted about not being able to share everything you know here.
Is there another forum or medium that you plan to use to air out more dirty team monavie secrets? I am anxious to hear the rest of your stories.
@Speak Your Truth – If I read one of your posts correctly, it sounded like you were going to create a blog and talk about mind control and manipulation. WHEN CAN I READ THIS? Please share, please tell, please start writing!!!
oh yeah, and @TRUTH SEEKER – the whole GURU thing cracks me up too. I wish a journalist would research the origins of that site to uncover who is behind it and how it got started. I would bet anything Orrin pays a monthly fee to someone to manage that site for him.
@Truth Seeker
**** pass me another beer, this blog is heating up****
I am dying!!!!!!
Have you all watched the movie “Believe?”
We all know it is bogus, It is manipulation!
They are all about YOU EARNING IT, at least everyone else should!
Just like the #1 best seller that Orrin can ever speak without self-promoting, I still have some anyone want any?!!!!
I remember the hundreds of orders we had to place for cases and cases and cases of those books.
Yep how generous of them “giving” the proceeds to the charity,makes them look good, but most probably don’t know it was only for the hard covered books(that there was any donations) which those were the ones that were used for the “promotion”, then they turned around and forced it down on Book of the Month( soft cover that was straight up profit), NO giving there.
But hey most people probably didn’t catch that, they just believed they were those Generous, Honest, Humble, Pure of Heart, Integrity, Character, Guru’s Oh Shoot just look up every great word in the dictionary and their you have it! They are all inclusive!
Just like how they wanted all the leaders blogging then linking to Orrin so that would rank him, we know this because he told us to do this.
Just like when Orrin wants to deter people from one of these sites he will use the word “scam” in his article tell the leaders to TELL EVERYONE to read it and get it so when searched, it will rank higher and show up for his article and not some “negitive truth site.”
Just like the IBOA Board just send a voice com through thousands of people to vote. WALA just like that they get voted in!
When you have a large number of many leaders building those big numbers it is pretty easy to get pretty much any title you want, just send down the marching orders, it is amazing how that word of mouth fly’s thru out your teams within hours!
Funny how they sarcasticaly criticise people who would take pride in their accomplishments,( like all the plagues on the wall for your degree’s)but they can’t wait to self-promote all their claimed titles.
Just more for their “bag of tricks” except there are a whole bunch of people that see through those “image of lies” and are starting to show up on site’s like these!
More and More are speaking out the truth, glad you are all here!
One thing I researched about the FAKE GURU AWARDS on Orrin in Chris that I found interesting was that when you do a search for leadership guru, it is mainly sites of Orrin Woodward that pops up where he has linked to that award site, blogged about, self-promoted it or has some other leader on a friends site tweeting, and blogging about his Grace.
This tells me that out of the top 25 or 30 leaders that they choose, none of those other leaders even care about the award, know that it exists and there are ZERO credible news sites or reputable organizations that also promote the awards. It is strickly promoted and showcased within the MLM worlds of Orrin Woodward and Chris Brady.
THIS SAYS ALOT!!!!
I WISH PEOPLE COULD CRITICALLY THINK FOR THEMSELVES AS SOMEONE MENTIONED IN A PREVIOUS POST.
I just realized that there is so much content here from all of the COMMENTS of ex-Team members that a new person would have a hard time finding where to start reading (If they even read the entire list of comments).
It seems like we ought to look at a way of grouping our topics on Orrin Woodward and Team and WHY people should not get involved. I appreciate all of the sites that are out there, and Amthrax for giving us this theraputic way to vent and HEAL, but I also think we should think of ways to organize our thoughts, issues, concerns in a quick easy to read format for a newbie that is looking for information on this scam.
What is everyone else’s thoughts? Amthrax any ideas on how to accomplish this?
There are just so many different issues that I would hate for people to miss all of these. Maybe we can just do a new post highlighting a quick SNAP SHOT of all of the bullet points of issues discussed out of all of these comments. So, maybe do a SUMMARY of all of our comments in a clear, concise, orderly fashion.
I am sure that between all of the commenters on here…we could break up the work and send you an email on bullet points to include in the summary of all of these ex-Teammers commenting. I think this type of post would be a good WARNING for all new people looking at the business or looking to get out. Let’s dumb it down for them a bit!!!!
In case you all have noticed…
….I can’t sleep.
I am so FIRED UP about all the unethical, immoral things that Orrin and team are doing.
Oh gosh, I just said FIRED UP. Somebody BEAT me, PLEASE?!!!!
@Will
I am so sorry you and all the others had to suffer this same garbage.
I will begin writing on the blog soon, I promise and will let you and all the others know. I have been reading and taking notes, the thing you said that made me the saddest it is still effecting you and is a slow journey. I know it will not go away without some help, but with a support group and the “right knowledge’ sound familiar, except I mean this in a real way, to heal we need to educate ourselves on cults and that is what I have been doing, hence the idea of blog thing.
Next I will confirm your eating tools and tickets 100% always has been that way and always will be because the guys that are rakin in the real cash will not lose a red cent but will allow everyone else to get buried, I DO BELIEVE YOU cuz we lived that for well over a decade!
You are going to laugh but one of my best friends in the business and I talked about starting a Seminar for Cult intervention and teaching, life skills etc! We have been trying to heal and brain storm for over 2 years!
Now I am all for helping people heal and as a matter of fact I want to go back to school and pursue this, BUT my friend more than me wanted to do something with the seminar thing but I don’t know about you but I really have a hard time still indoctrinated some and certain things just don’t settle well especially anything remotely related to this experience from hell.
I will say this though I will start blogging and will be sharing some good help there. That same friend and I are planning to go to a Seminar recommended by a cult expert. I really have to thank my friend she did the leg work for that and we are excited to go and more importantly we NEED to go. So Hope I can be of more help soon to you!
@webelieved
Yes, Yes and more Yes’s to all of your story, we were flat broke when they stole our profit-sharing too! So many similarities it is disturbing! Thanks for sharing it helps us all!
@ M & C, Truth Seeker, Barry Broke & I Quit all who just came here seems just today, it takes guts to do this, thanks for coming!
@Amthrax- I knew it would be a matter of time but I guess the flood gates have been opened thank you!
@Aurora, Izzy, Vogel, and all the rest thank you so much for your support, you guys are hilarious!
@Will
I cannot not sleep either but you are hilarious, great idea’s on categorizing the topics and warnings.
I can’t help myself but won’t use the rhetoric but you must be the “organized type” which we defintely need, I believe Amthrax is too and seems pretty “layed back type”.
It is really hard to not spout out the language of the Team Personalities and such. It has been over 2 years and that garbage still wants to come out, not that info is bad, I just have a hard time with anything related, it all just seems like everything was a lie!
Hey guys! =)
How’s it rocking mates?
ITS A GREAT DAY TO BE ASSOCIATING WITH 95%ers. AT LEAST WE ARE FREE TO THINK OUR THOUGHTS AND NOT EXPERIENCE GUILT. DO YOU WANNA BE RIGHT OR DO YOU WANNA BE RICH? HMMMM- AT THIS POINT I PREFER BEING RIGHT. HOOWAH!!!!! HI HO, HI HO, ITS OFF TO WORK I GO….!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! IM EXCITED HOW BOUT YOU? I’M SO STINKIN FIRED UP! CMON GUYS WE ARE FREE!!! HAVE FUN WITH IT!!!!! WAHOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
Speak Your Truth: Thanks for the welcome and I’m happy to be here.
More people need to share their experiences. I bet here is hundreds and possibly thousands of people who share a similar storey.
Lets hear it!?
Hey folks- We are only promised today right? Crap happens. We do our best and leave the rest to God. He will never give us more than we can handle right? I know sometimes it DEFINITELY does not feel that way but when we look back we know its true. There IS life after team. I appreciate the opportunity to vent, especially to fellow screw job victims. Lesson learned. Now we can heal and move forward (minor gag reflex) onto better things and better times.
and a fine opinion it is. I experienced all the same feelings during the un-plugging process. I am happy to report that I enjoy sitting on my couch at home and staring at the ceiling attempting to accomplish NOTHING!!
The indoctrinated will love to use that one! God forbid one to relax once in a while. Since I said that its obvious I’m a “couch jockey” (remember that one?) Somehow though its different for Guzzardo to veg out in his hot tub. Or drive his Jeeps over rocks. If an important person does it, it must be for an important purpose!
I just thought of something. “We’re entertaining ourselves to death.” – Orrin Woodward. He tweets. He blogs. He facebooks….. Ok class, ponder and discuss.
I would like see more individualised stories posted and comments afterwards, more topics posted, etc. That was a good idea, Will! ❤ I think LazyMan has a blog called Team Scam – http://www.teamscam.com I think the address is, I'll have to go back to see if we can set something up there. Also, I'm going to put a big fat post on my own WordPress blog – my story. (can't say how long it'll be, though)
The Leadership Gurus website has all the markings of a scam. The site lists an anonymous contact address at 121 Arundel Road in Birmingham UK – do a Google map search and you’ll see that this is not a commercial property but rather someone’s modest residence. The site lists no contact person or the names of any of the individuals who operate it. The site’s URL was registered anonymously through a proxy domain registry in Scottsdale Arizona (Wild West Domains), which is more than a bit suspect for a company based out of the UK. The domain registration details do not list a contact person; this only occurs when the registrant purposely withholds the information; and it is a red flag.
You’ve all assessed this quite accurately. It’s a BS shell organization setup to give out meaningless vanity awards so that guys like Woodwart can puff up their resumes and dupe people.
BTW, I couldn’t agree more about the movie “Believe” – hysterical and frighteningly true to life! The film’s creator, Loki Mulholland, deserves a big pat on the back.
@Vogel
Thanks so much for your research abilities, you can see the flood gates have been opened and as someone else mentioned there are thousands more that will be conjuring up enough guts to tell their unfortunate experiences but thank God for sites like these where people don’t have to be oppressed any longer!
If something happens to this site because of the so called “negative truth”, I call it reality truth and Healing!
You know Orrin “will do what-ever-it-takes” pressuring others to use their money and power like he wanted Amway to do by taking out the critics.
But I see this as a rock between a hard spot for them, because if he tries to sue (there would be thousands from these sites that would be happy to share what they have done and make it sound loud in the PUBLIC) it is Public Knowledge and if he doesn’t it still is public knowledge and freedom of speech. He only agrees with the freedom of speech if it showers the world with his glorious Guru, Honest, Humble, you know he, like I believe, izzy or aurora referred to the 8th wonder of the World!
I busted a gut when I read this!
Vogel did you ever have these experience with Orrin?
check out Guzz’s web site. Looks like the AZ thing did happen. Hence my crack about his Jeep. A former downline of mine called me about a year or so ago and mentioned AZ too. He wanted to know if I was comin’ back. Hee hee, hoo hoo, ha ha!! NOT! (that was the answer)
@I Quit
I’m pretty sure Guzzardo sold his land (that he was going to build a house)in AZ but I believe he bought or is renting one in New Mexico.
Oh that is too funny you didn’t want to re-activate and begin building Orrin’s million person dream?
I really wish people would use their common sense and realize the only dream and bank accounts they are building is Orrin’s and the rest of the Policy Counsel’s.
This is a very hard pill to swallow when you realize that is exactly what you are doing! That my friends is exactly why they have to brainwash you because no-one in their right mind would sign up for that program!!!!!
@I Quit
It’s like the where is Waldo only the where is George?!
@webelieved
There’s a lot of crap I know, that I have been keeping inside all these years! It is sooo healing to let it out, finally.
Amen! And I am sure for you as it is for us we have many more “ACES IN THE HOLE!”
So happy this is healing for you as I bet everyone on here would totally agree!
I always assumed the money went towards the hotel rents and cleanup crew, and perhaps the speakers’ overnight stay if they’ve come a long ways, since the opens are always held in the evenings.
Here’s how the tool structure of the Policy ‘leaders’ on Team is broken down:
Orrin Woodward Orrin Woodward Orrin Woodward
(sponcered) and (sponcered) and (partnered with)
Chris Brady George Guzzardo Claude Hamilton
Chris Brady
(sponcered)
Bill Lewis
Bill Lewis
(sponcered)
Tim Marks
I’d say Orrin is making the most ‘tool’ and seminar money!
webelieved:
You probably know already and your asking if others know, but just in case…
Yes, whomever does the open meeting pockets the money made off the open meeting. It pays for the hotel costs and expenses. Everyone working the event works it for free. the Team office has changed this process on/off many times, by requesting that the Team office will pay for the hotel costs and pay the speaker at the open meeting $50-$100 to do the open and then the rest of the money would go to the Team office for profit sharing. This was because some locations in MI or WI were bringing in 1000 plus people and the person speaking would make $4-5 thousand. Perhaps this was different in different Policy Council’s businesses. Perhaps some Policy Council members were actually pocketing these funds that they were asking from their ‘leaders’ who did the open but then had to ‘report’ the money back tot he Team office therefore they would give this money to their PC leader but it never ended up being sent to the Team office (who would know) so he deposits it into his bank account? I wouldn’t be surprised.
I’d like to see this site turn from a gossip site to a whistle blowing site. I think there’s a lot of truth out there that readers want to share but are afraid that ‘somehow’ Amthrax will be able to tell who or where this information is coming from… which could lead back to those people that don’t want the truth to come out… maybe we can get some reasurance from Amthrax??
@truth seeker
Yep is anyone naive enough to believe you will make more money than them. The only way I know that anyone makes more money than their upline is if their given system & ticket counts, special deals,(oh in theory you could build a bigger business but if you had an upline like ours he would blow people out for us, whole legs, by even telling them to quit because “he didn’t like their questioning their practices, yep) or they are speaking more which is choosen by the Policy Counsel sometimes others if you happen to be spending YOUR OWN dollars to invest in the opens and seminars, This is criminal to me but you know it’s all for TEAM= Together Everyone Achieves More,(we were so loyal, it is discusting!) this is a very sore spot for us because the team policy was if the opens and seminars MADE money you sent the PROFITS INTO THEM but if it LOST money lets say they send a triple 100 speaker
( their pay was bigger than turbo 100 etc.)into the seminar you are responsible for those Loses, then if the numbers didn’t cover all the expenses it would be “Out-of-Your-Pocket” because no way was the Team going to eat that cost (they only supplied the tools but you are responsible for all the inventory etc. and they wouldn’t want to to sell your own tools because that would be your profit plus you would have to invest 10’s of thousans!), so for example if the seminar lost $1200 they would automatically deduct this from your profit-sharing check , YEP, lost thousands this way!
Does this sound like FAIR BUSINESS PRACTICE OR GREED to you, YOU DECIDE!?
So shouldn’t be any doubt how they opperate and keep the profits for themselves!
Now do you ever hear them TEACH TRANSPARENCY and want YOU to be profitable because they are so genuine, loving, caring and Godly?
Again, TRANSPARENCY, WHAT HYPOCRISY, that doen’t pretain to them, only to the REST of the world!
@Unknown, @AmyS, @TruthSeeker, @BarryBroke, @M&C Canada:
All of your comments are coming from the same IP address. In the interest of everyone, can you please stick to using one name instead of multiple aliases? Otherwise, I’m going to have to start moderating your posts from now on.
The TeamScam web site is a good place to start. You can also find other articles that I’ve written about TEAM and Orrin Woodward here:
https://amthrax.wordpress.com/tag/orrin-woodward/
Lots of content there, and will be a good starting point for further discussion.
@webelieved:
All I ask from people is that they represent themselves correctly when leaving comments. The only information that I receive is what you enter in the comments field (name, email and web site) and your IP address. If I see multiple posts from “different” people coming from the same IP address, I become suspicious that someone is trying to game the system and leave false comments. This happened most recently in the posts about Dean Kosage. The IP address provides the general area where the person is posting from, but not the actual location.
While there are cases where people can be behind the same IP address, I think it’s unlikely in the case of this blog. There are also ways to obscure or mask one’s ip address (i.e. logging into a server that’s located away from where you really are), but I have no reason (yet) to believe that people are doing this.
You should feel free to speak freely about your experiences. If you are concerned about a lawsuite, I would shy away from making any remarks that could be construed of as threats or slander. Focus on the truth of your own experiences, and you should be fine. Any hard evidence of wrongdoing on the part of TEAM is also fair to post on this site.
I read up on the latest flurry of posts and then headed out for a quick workout, but the whole time, I couldn’t stop thinking about y’all on this blog. First, I have to say how glad I am to see such expressions of gratitude from people; and by that I mean gratitude to simply be alive, free of TEAM, and free to express your thoughts and feelings. THAT is what life is all about. You are truly free now.
Those who have been victimized by Monavie and TEAM have paid a hefty price – financially and emotionally. And now, as more people are stepping forward and sharing what they could not previously bring themselves to think, let alone utter, the healing is beginning.
Several people have asked whether I have ever been involved in MLM. The answer is no. I was fortunate to have had my non-MLM career path laid out long ago, based on MANY years in university paying my dues (and I was no silver spoon kid – I worked to pay my own tuition from day 1). But as I said, I was lucky to have had such an opportunity because not everyone does. I sympathize with those decent, honest hard-working people who, for whatever reason, did not have the doors to a lucrative career wide open to them. To all those blue- and white-collar workers who toil away at honest work for modest wages, I salute you, for you are the backbone of this country. These are people who keep their envy and materialism in check and are simply grateful to have a steady job and the love of their family and friends. That’s what life is really all about. Too many people spend their lives chasing after money, thinking that once they get enough, happiness will follow. But that path, as we have all been told, is nothing more than an illusion. Having money in the bank doesn’t magically bring happiness; it just alleviates the pain of poverty. But life is filled with many greater challenges, and some people never get to face them because they are too consumed with chasing after the almighty dollar.
The reason why I expend so much effort exposing the truth about Monavie (and the charlatans who run it) is because, through my training, it’s very easy for me to recognize the lies. I realize that not everyone has the requisite skills to do this, and it’s certainly not because they are fools. Scams like Monavie are very carefully engineered to be convincing and difficult to see through. That’s why they all follow the exact same script and modus operandi – because it’s a tried and tested method for effectively bilking money from people without their realizing it.
My other inspiration is that I despise the fact that these kingpins are not only extolling materialism and wickedness, but they are using Christ and the Bible to do it. The contradiction between the words of the Bible and the actions of Monavie’s kingpins is incredibly offensive. Christ preached humility, non-materialism, charity, generosity, loving thy neighbor (in a manner not contingent on whether or not someone buys juice from you or joins your MLM), and caring for those who are less fortunate. Do you think for one second that if Christ were alive today he wouldn’t be turning over the tables of the TEAM tools salesmen and casting them out just as he did to the moneylenders in Matthew 21:12? Everything about Monavie and TEAM is antithetical to the teachings of Christianity. Those who would pervert their religion in an attempt to defraud people are blasphemers, plain and simple.
Monavie and TEAM do not create better people. They preach exclusion, paranoia, idolatry, vanity, materialism, resentment, nepotism, and close-mindedness – and they are mindboggling liars. Adding insult to injury, they aren’t even delivering on their central promise of wealth (at least not for anyone but themselves). These so-called “leaders” demand to be treated like gods, and yet the only place they are leading people is off the edge of a cliff and into the abyss of empty materialism. In the process of shepherding people on this soul-crushing journey, the leaders utterly destroy people’s abilities for independent thought; their relationships; their savings; their faith in everything other than the scam itself. How can they possibly atone for inflicting such damage?
The “leaders” create odes in praise of themselves; and these dissonant paeans couldn’t be more illegitimate – it’s all just lies and puffery. Dallin Larsen isn’t a “man of vision with a proven track record of success”; he’s a petty thief who pulls the same scam over and over again, and then packs up the tent and moves to the next scam whenever he’s on the verge of having to atone for his sins.
What fills my heart, however, is seeing the victims of this scam slowly awakening from their slumber and banding to together to offer hope and support to one another. That no doubt pleases the Lord too. And if anyone deserves edification, it is people like Amthrax and Lazyman who have unselfishly provided venues like this for the free exchange of ideas and support. This is a noble gesture that is worthy of our respect and admiration, for they serve without asking for anything at all in return. They recognized that people were being hurt and they did the right thing to put an end to it.
This is your time to heal and to shine. When you feel ready, we can talk about other ways to make you all whole again, like a class action lawsuit so that you can undo some of the financial damage that’s been inflicted on you and see to it that justice is served against your victimizers. In the mean time, you all now have something far more important than money – your freedom; your integrity; your soul. You’ve thrown the shackles aside.
I’ll always be here for you if ever you need me…and it will never cost you so much as a penny. I’m YOUR servant.
Hey Vogel- I appreciate your candidness. Thanks for being you!
I’ll have to think about how to lay out some experiences in a brief manner for ya’ll…
@Vogel
I really have no words to thank you, Amthrax, and Juicescam! The words Thank You just doesn’t quite fulfill what my heart needs to express.
You all are very intelligent and compassionate, which inspires me even more to do what I know my heart has always wanted to and that is to help others(the very reason I was trapped for well over a decade) and as you said being a servant,(it got twisted into slave during this) this has been very difficult because it is my heart that was abused and is the deepest pain and is the exact reason I am speaking out.
This has been so excruciating,confusing and twisted because for those who really do care which is the ones I believe end up speaking on all these sites and my heart aches for those left still to live in their silent pain feeling alone and affraid.
But to those just believe, “The Truth Does Set You Free”, when you speak out it is the beginning of the healing!
I really have a lot more healing to do and believe coming on here has scratched the surface so again my Thanks and Gratitude goes to all of you for your courage and honesty, you are the real Hero’s to me!
Vogel- you are amazing, I honestly feel your compassion!
LET THE HEALING BEGIN!
People like Vogel should get a gold medal! Very few people are like him, and as an ex-teamer, I’d like to say thank you for caring for us an providing us support and information. It does mean a lot to me that people who hasn’t been in TEAM cares and are genuinely concerned and truly understand.
Allow me to offer a few kernels of knowledge about IP addresses. First, if you are like most people posting from their home computer, your internet provider would have assigned you a dynamic IP address, which means that if someone tries to ID you from your IP address (which is transmitted whenever you surf the web or send an e-mail), the closest they will get is the city and the name of your provider; nothing more (unless they went all out and subpoenaed your provider, which is not an easy thing to do).
If you’re posting from a business computer, then it is more likely that it is a fixed/static IP address registered in company’s name. So in other words, if you don’t want to be traced back to your place of employment, don’t use their network to electronically transmit anything (and the employer’s IT department can even ID the originating computer terminal). Some people have fixed IPs at home, but it’s less common and more expensive – you’d have to make a purposeful effort to get such a premium account.
There are websites that act as free proxies, allowing you to surf the web anonymously using their IP address. Also, fixed IPs can be registered anonymously by the subscribers, although reputable businesses would never do such a thing (unlike that anonymously-registered bogus leadership guru website).
As for the possibility of anyone IDing you (beyond the city) from posting here: (1) it would be impossible if you have a dynamic IP, and; (2) it’s unlikely that, in the event that you do have a static IP, Amthrax would ever use that information maliciously – we all post here trusting fully that Amthrax is on the up and up. He just waved the red flag when he noticed that someone was using the same IP address under multiple user names. That’s a very much frowned upon form of trolling because it’s only done for deceptive reasons (i.e. sock puppets, meat puppets, and to to create the illusion of strength in numbers). One voice is all anyone should need to get their message across.
BTW, use this site to check IP addresses and website URLs and you’ll get a better feel for how it all works:
http://www.networksolutions.com/whois/index.jsp
Thanks for this explanation and for your kind words earlier today.
BTW: I’ve enabled nested comments and am breaking out comments to the show the latest 200 comments. Click on the Older Comments link to see past ones.
Hey thanks all y’all. Brothers and sisters in arms! Pay it all forward.
Subject to change, but let’s try it out for a little bit. If you don’t reply to an existing comment, it will still appear at the bottom. But, if you reply, your comment will be nested underneath the original comment.
Veliza- You mentioned before that you would like to hear specific stories. Heres one for ya. I had only been in the biz for a short while but I was going after the “big fish”. I laid my contact script mumbo jumbo on him and promptly received a polite turndown for “information”. This fish knew my mom-in-law and knew me as well. A day or two later I told my illustrious upline (who only had my best interests in mind) who I had tried to slap a plan on. I don’t remember what he said exactly but it probably went something like barf puke barf puke lie. Anyway several days later guess whoshows up at the next open meeting as a guest of my wonderful upline mentor and friend? You got it, the fish. He also was aquainted with my buddy pal. Then I found out that the fish told my bosom buddy about me mentioning the same thing to him just days before. What were we taught was the right and ethical thing to do in this type of situation? Thats right, send em back to the first point of contact. Especially when its gonna be in depth in your friggin’ group anyway!! But what did the god-like, future PC numbnut do? YUP. He took the fish as a personal to start another leg. What a guy. What a pal. Lead by example right?! This event set the stage for us to know we will never fully trust the gift to 95%ers. This particular individual’s name has been mentioned many times on these sites of truth. What a cowinkydink. Ethical, Godly, man of integrity, character and honesty. Excuse me whilst I lose my pizza dinner! Man if someone is researching the Team and considering joining, Ihope reading about this experience will be enough to slap them back into objective thought! Don’t fall for it. PLEASE.
Amthrax- I’ve been meaning to say thanks for all you do as well. I’m glad I found all you folks. I love your logo too! Are you a fan? I love their old stuff!! I’ve gotta tick tick tickin in my head!! WAHOOOO! AOOGAAA!!!!!!!
You gotta stop beatin yourself up. We all (well almost all) fell for it. Hell we BELIEVED it. You ain’t alone. Maybe if you try the W.I.N. principle. Now don’t start shoutin me down all you guys! That principle can be used for good as well as Team BS. Whats important now is that you remember you’re among friends now. We care because we care. We have nothing to gain but self respect from helping a fellow victim up out of the sh*t! It’s tough but if you can build that thing for so long then you can dig your way out to sunshine and fresh air. Green grass and high tides forever! WE ARE FREE!!! WAHOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
P.S. the seminar originally scheduled for tomorrow night is hearby friggin cancelled due to lack of interest!
P.P.S. Time for a brewha
P.P.P.S. Or two
Oh this is classic (sorry bout the un-ethics though, geez bet I could guess who or where that person might be)!
Which brings up a valid point, when you and your neighbor have to fight over the same neighborhood, doesn’t make much sense to build this type of business, but like you- iquit- it became another terrible oversight!
Seriously, what other legit sales company doesn’t protect other sales rep’s territory?
Maybe that is why “they claim to be different and not like anyone else,” Wow…that’s an understatement!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Thanks for making me laugh hysterically!
Love Your Choice of words-keep it coming!
You really have to watch the Movie “Believe!”
Thanks, wow- this is still over my head. lol
Maybe you could just tell us folks who haven’t a computer clue (well maybe just me) what is the best option! LOL
I quit – I have so many similar stories! This is absolutely wrong on so many levels. And to think these leaders get on stage and preach Christian values, integrity and character etc. I wonder if their new churches and pastors down in Florida have the slightest idea what these guys are all about? Steve Camp at the cross church in Palm Springs, FL must have been shedazzled by Orrin to allow him to get on stage and speak at one of their upcoming conferences. http://crosschurch.net/ You would think that this Pastor would do his research on what this guy is all about and represents, right? It is a shame that people are continuing to be hurt and deceived by this man under the disguise of spreading the faith and changing culture.
Does anyone know anyone from that area or at that church? It would be great for someone to call them and WARN the church of the many harms and dangers that await them.
Tom Ascol is another pastor that team leaders seem to have gotten in bed with. I am sure this Pastor has great intentions and truly wants to spread the Gospel, but little does he know that he is being used as a PAWN for Orrin’s master plans and personal gain.
The credibility that Orrin, Chris Brady, George Guzzardo and Claude Hamilton receive on stage by having these pastors speak at their conference is HUGE in my opinion. I really feel like these guys are being HAD.
@Will
I hear you loud and clear!
I believe it was team deception had the same thoughts and I feel like a Pastor is the best resource.
The sad thing is when or if someone searches Orrin they will only find the Glorious, Wonderful “Suspicious”Press, “News Flashy Info” and those specifically set up Guru titles that many of the smart computer people have now pointed out are just PR stuff and full of crap that makes them look good!
I know Orrin, he would lead that Pastor directly to this info!
Where does this Tom Ascol, Pastor come into the picture, I have never heard of him?
@Amthrax
I really want to give you a BIG THANK YOU for this new thing you did, it is way cool and easier to understand the posts better. I really don’t know how you do this but Thanks it helps us computer clueless and easily distracted people!
The real salt in the wound is this- the fish built a HUGE biz. Things could have been real different for us if… And that, ladies and gentlemen is the million dollar issue (millions out of the dreamer’s pocket and into Woody’s and co.) IF. Man our biz was disgustingly full of “ifs”. Why did we keep going through all the failed ifs? Because we knew that sooner or later we’d beat the odds and an if would pan out in our favor. Right? Many, many times I would be on my knees begging God to finally let this thing break for us. We got so close so many times only to lose it for one reason or another. If only this wouldn’t have happened or that hadn’t happened, We’d be triple 100 instead of just turbo100 with a leg of nose pickers. I can’t believe I felt that way now that I see it in print! They’re PEOPLE! Not losers. They’re hard workin Americans who are struggling for whatever reason and maybe they’re trying to be responsible stewards of their money instead of brainwashed glory mongers with a goal. My goal dammit, don’t get in my way or I’ll crush your friggin head on my way over you to the top! I’m a choleric (erp) and I’m proud of my ability to turn off my emotion to achieve the task at hand. It pains me to look back and realize how deep I was in to “chasing my dream” no matter what. Anyway- I find peace and solace in the fact that God, in his infinite wisdom had a better idea. The answer to my prayer was no because he didn’t want us to get that deeply involved in this crapola called the “team”. ( It probably didn’t help that I’m a headstrong non-conformist who doesn’t always take direction well from others. Especially when they’re jacked up wrong!) Hee hee, hoo hoo, ha ha!!!!!!!!! I’ve gotta be me!!! I’ve got to be me!! I’m right this time big O! And you, are wrong. HOOWAH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Yeah baby!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
FREEDOM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! AHOOOGAAAAA!!!!!!!!!!!
I remember getting a cd with Tom Ascol from Team drop shipped to my house. He was featured on one of the ERM series CDs that they sold. Not sure on the number?? Anyone else remember this CD?
He pastors a church out of Cape Coral, FL. I believe Tim Marks goes there along with some other leaders. Chris Brady used to have a house down there, not sure if he does anymore, but he is really tight with this guy as well. On Chris Brady’s website he has some links up pointing to this guys site here: http://www.founders.org/blog/
Here is Tom Ascol’s church website – http://www.truegraceofgod.org/
and Twitter page – http://twitter.com/tomascol
If you look at Tom’s twitter page he is periodically tweeting comments about Orrin and Chris and likewise the FAKE GURU AWARD recipients in turn tweet pretty heavily back and forth with Tom and his church.
I did a another google search for Tom Ascol and found this link here -http://www.docstoc.com/docs/11698704/TOD-TEAM-Tapes , which is a document /detailed report of all of the old Team/PPS/SOL tapes by number. GOSH this brings back some shyytie memories, eh? I feel sorry for the nut job who thought it was a good idea to type all this crap up.
Anyhow, back on track…this document shows Tom Ascol as being apart of the team tape system (featured speaker) at one time, though it does not show which exact cd it was. So, it looks like this has been a pastor that has been around for a while as Chris & Terri Brady and Tim & Amy Marks (maybe Orrin & Laurie too? Not sure if they went to this church…anyhone else know?) must have been schmooozing with this pastor in Florida and his church for a while building a relationship and slowly building him up as the next CHRISTIAN leader to ENDORSE the team to give them CREDIBILITY.
SICKENING that these diamonds will falsely use religion and masquerade around on stage preaching ethics, faith and morals when they could give a crap.
one word for you —
WOLVES!
All members at Tom Ascol’s Grace Baptist church in Cape Coral, FL. and Steve Camp’s the Cross Church in Palm Springs, FL need to BEWARE the wolves in sheep’s clothing!!!
I truly hope that these pastors wise up and start to question the diamonds motives here. The diamonds have everything to gain and these pastors stand to lose alot as people in their churches will be harmed.
I wonder what your’s are, many more may come out, just depends! LOL
Thanks.
webelieved-we do care!
I Quit- OMG- I cannot stop laughing at “News Flash” on the seminar!!!!!
Lets talk AMWAY /Quixtar lawsuit and all the BS that Orrin pulled there for a bit. I am sure we all have similar stories to tell being that alot of us were close to the leaders being Turbo 25s on up to Triple 100s.
I’ll go first…
Who remembers Orrin stating that he ‘Did not Solicit or speak to Team members about resigning from Amway?’
–Now remember he was under oath during the lawsuit stating that his lips were sealed the entire time and that he never encouraged or told people to quit. BS!! I specifically recall conversations over the phone and text message on what to say to the field and when they were to send in their mass resignations. THE GUY IS A LIAR and he LIED UNDER OATH
Who remembers the lawsuit that he filed against Quixtar stating that they were an illegal pyramid because they only had (supposedly) 3% retail sales, which makes them illegal according to FTC regulations?
— Who thinks it is odd that he later joins with MonaVie, a company who has ZERO retail sales!!! (Oh, unless you count inactive distributors as customers…then I guess that would be a good way to disguise the fact that no one retails the product.) This stat alone trips me up majorly!! How can so many Team people follow him blindly without critically evaluating this business first.
Who remembers reading Orrin’s ‘Benchmarking Comparison of MonaVie’ on his blog and how it was a great opportunity blah blah blah!!??
— Really, I don’t think they gave it much thought. I think it simply came down to who was offering the most CASH for them to merge with their business.
Who remembers Orrin suing Q due to over priced products?
— Was MonaVie’s LONE RANGER of a product priced any better?
I know there is a ton of other good stuff I am missing…
….I will let you guys fill in the rest….
WILL-THANK YOU SO MUCH!
This SHOULD shatter the indoctrination, and put people in shock!
I CONFIRM that the Solicitation FACTS that you state are 100% the TRUTH!
Very Well put, way to state the FACTS, I am going to “promote this to my whole team!” LOL
Really though everyone should read this!
To bad I didn’t have access to the “Team Inside Blog” that is where the message behind the message is or the marching orders come from! I will never give them another dime of mine again, they have taken way too much from way too many!
Great Job!
Speak Your Truth – Glad we can help each other out!! I will say that I have been in a state of ‘Shell Shock’ over the past few years and I too am just starting to snap out of it. It has been a long slow painful road, and the past few weeks on this blog has been a great experience in order for me to cope and heal. I guess I no longer feel ALONE and realize that there are alot of good people in the same boat that just want to MOVE ON, while trying in any way we can to warn others to JUMP from the SINKING SHIP.
Thanks for listening to me rant on here guys and gals!!
iQuit – I would love to grab a brew with you and the rest of the crew on here anytime. I am sure we kicked it around in the past at seminars and opens together. Would be interesting to have some real conversations face to face sometime. I am sure we would have CRAZY stories to tell….
“Remember that one time at Fun in the Sun, when we desperately wanted to just have a day to spend with our families, but instead we were forced to sitting in a conference room listening to Orrin schmyooorrrin yak about the same ol’ same ol’ for 5 hours each night and then trying to stay interested as the mic got passed to Chris & Terri and then Tim & Amy…???”
…yeah, I am sure we could go all day
Good morning class! aaaaaaaaaayes indeed believed. I answered yes to every question you posed in your last post. I had similar phone calls with instructions to never use any electronic coms as they are traceable and like ya’ll Ibought into the “us and them” David vs Goliath mentality which glazed over the wrongness of what was being done!! Great subject choice Will! But remember, the gifts to us 95%ers were found guilty!! The Lord works in mysterious ways. I would love to have EVERYONE over this summer! We’ll sit around the firepit and have two-way conversation and beers. You know like we used to with our illustrious uplines many moons ago.
“Morning Class”
LOL
I love it.
We Believed – Great points, all so true and YES the MOSES analogy was indeed wrong and the deceit and LIES that surround just this one little topic are too many to name.
iQuit – You name the time and place and we will be there! We will need to let Amthrax run point on figuring out a way to get a few of us in contact with each other.
Yes, and it’s even better knowing that Amthrax and LazyMan never been in MV/TEAM, it’s really good to know that there are some outsiders that truly understand us, and took the time to research, and are willing to help.
Hi, I Quit, I’ve never had anyone stolen from me, perhaps it’s because I worked my arse off for seven months and never gotten anyone! :-p heh, oh dear, that was so unethical of those guys to steal people from you guys, I think it’s awful. At least my sponsor let me go at some people she had her eye on. Don’t know if she’d do it now that she’s even more steeped into TEAM, though. I am praying that she’ll get out, though.
Regards, Izzy
webelieved – My business and income went south way before the switch to MonaVie. However, during that transition it fizzled away even more so down to nothing. AND YES, many of my teams that were still active were divvied up and given to other leaders that were never even in the same teams or lines of sponsorship in Quixtar. YEARS of effort and building and they (ORRIN) took teams and positioned them wherever they pleased. More importantly, ORRIN even took teams that he never had a connection with prior to these distributors coming into Quixtar. They were my contacts, my personals, my friends and relationships over the course of my life prior to joining Team. He moved in there, cozied up to them and re-positioned people that I FOUND, that I BUILT relationships with. This is completely UNETHICAL and MORALLY WRONG.
I had big business at one point with around 500 people in my downline, but none of them were able to reach even the platinum levels within Quixtar. This is what woke me up as I realized that I was the only one making a ‘small piece of cheese’ from this business, yet everyone on my team never made any money. The numbers did not add up. I could not (WITH A CLEAR CONSCIENCE) continue to promote this business and edify the leaders and represent this as a GOOD INCOME opportunity, because it WAS NOT.
I watched family after family accumulate massive amounts of debt, and all the while ORRIN would be encouraging it. Families that had 3, 4 or 5 kids in diapers and grade school…who were out maxing their credit cards and driving thousands of miles to show plans each month and they never made a DIME! But yet they still drank the juice and followed Orrin blindly. Eventually, they slowly started to wake up that they were wasting their MONEY and most importantly their TIME.
Imagine all of the good things they could have done with their own families building memories that would last a life time by taking family vacations with their children or investing that money in their families future (a REAL business, college fund, sports lessons for their kids etc.), when instead they were told “Your kids have to sacrifice too for a little while until you go Diamond, and then you can have all the time in the world to spend with your kids!!!” NEWS FLASH – there are only 5 or 6 current PC members on the Team out of thousands of distributors. These people will never get to that level. And ANOTHER THING — the pc members that are there, WE CAN ALL ATEST to this fact, they DO NOT SPEND TIME WITH THEIR FAMILIES. They are still slaves to this business and spend every ounce of time they have is going towards CONVINCING PEOPLE to stay in their cult.
One of the REGRETS I have is the amount of TIME and MONEY that I let this business TAKE from me. The Bible talks about IDOLS in our lives and anything that CONSUMES us and CONTROLS our thoughts, time and actions and takes us away from our WALK WITH GOD is an idol. It can be an iPhone, video games, TV, books, a sport or hobby like GOLF etc. ANYTHING THAT WE VALUE MORE THAN OUR FAITH is an IDOL. TEAM IS and WAS exactly that for me and everyone else that I witnessed DIVING into the system and PRAISING the SYSTEM, LEADERS and BUSINESS. We all put this at the forefront of our lives and focused on this business more than we did our faith, our families, our church and our friends. I KNOW YOU CAN RELATE with what I am saying, and my prayer is that other people will see that they are allowing TEAM and MONAVIE and ORRIN WOODWARD to CONSUME their every breath, their every ounce of BEING, their every inner THOUGHT, DESIRE and MOTIVES — ALL our consumed and controlled by Team and Orrin’s system that he has designed to KEEP you ENTRENCHED and CAPTIVE for his own personal GAIN.
I KNOW THE NUBMERS. I have detailed receipts, tax documents and everything that I spent and made over the past 10 years and I spent WAY more money than I earned…and I was the only one in my team that got a check from Quixtar or Team. PERIOD. Everyone one else just LOST way more than I DID.
I am happy to say that I am FREE and have my time back and I can now FOCUS my life and energy towards what is important: GOD, MY CHURCH, MY WIFE, MY KIDS, MY FUTURE and I can now spend my time with my family where that is where I am needed most. I am to be a Godly example and leader in my OWN household and that is impossible when TEAM LEADERS are telling you to SACRIFICE and that my kids need to SACRIFICE until I got DIAMOND. They are MIS-LEADING thousands of people down the same path and it is morally wrong and corrupt!
This is why I feel that these churches down in Florida and the Pastors there are being MIS-LEAD as well for Orrin’s own personal gain.
Sorry again for the rant…
It does feel good to let it ALL out!
I do wonder why there’s so much activity on this TEAM/Woodward post after all these years of blogging about the subject. Perhaps multiple people are waking up to the fact that it has all been an illusion.
Wow. I have been reading this blog for some time now and have never really felt compelled to comment because I didn’t have anything to do with TEAM, only MonaVie. I began to learn about the association between the two (most of which happened after I left MV) and I truly felt sick for having had ANYTHING to do with a company that would align itself with TEAM on ANY level.
Vogel’s beautiful and heartfelt words are seconded by me. I almost started crying when I saw the pain that MV and TEAM have put some of you through, I mean, to suffer a life threatening illness brought on by the stress of this cult, is criminal, plain & simple. To lose your house, your savings, but most importantly…your life…is not something to be taken lightly. I agree with Vogel that some action needs to be taken here when everyone is ready, of course.
What scares me most about TEAM is the way that they have scared all of you into silence. You are all so afraid to be identified that you are worried about being tracked through your computer. I totally get this, as I had the same fear. In a weird way, their mind control continues, doesn’t it? Perhaps it is because some of us have loved ones (or at least “liked” ones) that we have left behind in TEAM and it might hurt them to speak out, but most likely the “leaders” have somehow convinced everyone that they are omnipotent, beyond legal reproach. This is simply not true. I think a class action lawsuit is a brilliant idea and you all should really think about it. These people are CRIMINALS and they need to be exposed for what they are.
I think that a lot of you feel that you have some guilt because you went along with it, began to feel the greed take over your hearts and souls, but trust your instincts when they tell you that you were a pawn. Speaking personally, I started out thinking I was just doing something good for my body with drinking “the juice” but began to get sucked into the whole materialistic side of things…what if I COULD take the trip to Africa…pay off my mortgage…etc? This is not me…I have a beautiful life and am proud of my accomplishments. But then I had an experience where I was around some Diamonds and “jewels” where I heard them all bragging about how they were going to have their own bus and plane some day with MONAVIE plastered over the side of it, and it brought me to reality. These people were good and decent people and for two hours they talked about all of the THINGS they were going to have & it made me sick to my stomach. It was all so surreal. Sidebar-none of them have these things 4 years later.
Anyways, I felt horrible guilt for getting people involved, for believing the “truths” that I was spoon fed & for being naive enough to fall for a scam like this in the first place. I, to be honest, sort of always quietly ridiculed people that fell for these Ponzi schemes yet, here I was, involved in one! I am well educated and never thought it would happen to me, yet it did. iquit mentioned that he is a non-conformist and doesn’t like being told what to do…yet he was deeply involved with TEAM. Make no mistake people, their techniques are cult techniques and are dangerous.
I got out before it did too much financial damage (let’s just say I could have taken that trip to Africa with my losses but that is about it) but a lot of you suffered far more then I did. There are more families that will suffer in the future as well and you all need to keep posting, telling your stories and doing what you can to get the message out. I think a huge part of my “self forgiveness” process is by posting as much as I can on the Juice Scam and Lazyman sites (a shout out to my peeps over there & to JS for being such an unselfish host -they all helped in my “recovery”!), it is catharsis but it is also redemption. I feel that if I tell my story over and over again, it might resonate with someone and they either won’t become victimized or will somehow “snap out of it”.
You are all very brave and I congratulate you for coming out of the darkness with your hearts so open to helping others, as well as yourselves. You are the real “winners” here. Please don’t ever forget that.
I knew quite a few people from Lance and Tracy Smith’s organization who were making decent supplemental income from Quixtar and were blatantly lied to about switching over from Q to MV. In fact, I believe the Smith’s were double dipping and continue to this day double dipping from both while my good friends have been forced to work two or three jobs just to make ends meet. They had been getting $2,000 – $5,000 monthly from Q (I personally saw their checks) before drinking the punch and following Christ……uh…….I mean Orrin
Also, another close friend of mine managed speakers and music groups who would go in to perform for TEAM and I remember one instance where a music group, who had an amazing ministry, was to receive an offering from the Sunday worship service and they never got it. I’m guessing it went into Orrins right or left pocket. That’s messing with God’s money. I don’t think the group was associated with TEAM but I know they had an awful impression of the organization for taking an offering that was designated for mission work and instead somehow disappeared. I truly believe these people are getting paybacks from above……..you don’t mess with God……at least the only TRUE and REAL GOD!
Thats exactly it…
by Gods GRACE we are FREE, what an emotional and strange journey it is. But we will be better and stronger in the end. Now that the blinders are off I can now think again and listen as God speaks to me and works in my life. This is truly what I have been missing all along!
Webelieved – “We were only valued for out work ethic and loyalty to our upline.”
This is WAY funny (and pathetic at the same time), I recall a number of cases where Orrin would come in and ask why I was not ‘Edifying him on stage as much as other leaders.’ I may had been referring to CDs that I had liked by Chris Brady or a quote from Tim Marks — Anyways, homeboy (Orrin) gets jealous gives me a long talking to about why I need to edify him on stage. Cracks me up this guy, his massive EGO competing with his own friend and Diamonds. And don’t get me wrong, it was not like I did not talk about him at all, every time I did a plan, night owl or seminar I must have mentioned his name a dozen or so times or more (all in a positive manner), he just didn’t like the fact that I was edifying other leaders maybe a little bit more than him.
I must say that its a damn good thing we bailed out before the group theft activities started. Or maybe we were just fortunate to be under the radar enough to have been missed. Not sure… Our MV shift went pretty smooth actually except for a few folks who never resigned their old biz. That got ugly. However we made sure our LOS stayed in the exact order (except of course the folks who either stayed or weren’t interested in continuing) it was previously. We caught some crap from our PC for taking too long and letting our group dictate to us etc. We saw it as being ethical and honest thank you very much!! I know if my upline would have stolen anything there would have been assault charges on my ass because the old me would have been allowed back to the surface and he wasn’t nice- he had a history of fights in bars and even in street intersections. God had bigger plans for me instead of prison I guess. Which I appreciate more than words can express. And no Teambots I’m not threatening anyone. I just know the pain and sacrifice that goes into building a successful biz and if some mofo who didn’t earn it, takes it, I will get just a tad bit upset. At any rate it “doesn’t matter doesn’t matter doesn’t matter.” Hee hee ha ha hoo hoo!! I”M FREEEEE!!! I’m gonna go pound nails in my basement now since theres no seminar today! HOOWAHH!!!!!!!!!!!
I Quit
Thank You for the wake-up laugh, I absolutely love your style, it has given me once again another deep out-loud belly laugh, keep it coming!
I Quit
Thank You for the wake-up laugh, ! I absolutely love your style, it has given me once again another deep out-loud belly laugh, keep it coming!!
Will
I don’t even know where to begin, I first am laughing out loud @ I Quit and then Oh the deepest sadness just came over me when I started to read your post, I honestly have no words to describe the pain I feel for not just you and your family and all your team but Webelieved and myself and my kids.
The last 3 days God has been answering my prayers!
After, going on almost 3 years of excruciating anguish, extreme anger, sadness, and loathing, many prayers and questions to God: WHY ISN’T JUSTICE BEING SERVERED? Please heal the hearts of all these that have left and are still blinded! Why are those with the facts to take them down that I believe have not only a Legal but even more strongly, a Moral Obligation to Speak up and Out, Why haven’t they spoken (common sense would tell you there is at least some, I can’t indulge too much because I would have to give an (“Ace in the Hole”, because I myself don’t even understand it) but someone has to know these facts, How can they just pretend? Why haven’t they been investigated? So, many more questions!
The last 3 days have been the most powerful for me and mostly because of a few commenters’ and I now I have been blessed to see the fruits of more healing for others! I really can’t tell you what this means to me, we were never about the MONEY that was at least in our minds the by-product of pouring our lives into others. I cannot contain my emotions by yours’ and webelieves comments. I can clearly see the pain this has caused you both. But even better I can see the pain being released and it truly is setting you free!
Everything you said on the registration, (I have so much to say there,) but you gave a clear, honest and factual statement!
THIS IS THE REASON, WE STOOD UP, and it is, as you said, IMMORAL AND UNETHICAL and the strongest testament to the REAL CHARACTER OF THIS CORRUPT AND GREEDY, FARCE! I have NO EMPATHY, for these pathetic, greedy, miss-leaders! This was done strictly to RANK THE FEW, AND WE REFUSED TO SELL OUR SOULS!!!!!!! This was definitely the beginning of the END for us AN THEM but they are too stupid to see it themselves, they are so AROGANT and NARCISSISTIC THAT THEY DON’T EVEN SEE THIS! YOU CAN’T STEAL FROM PEOPLE AND EXPECT TO PROSPER! They need to give their head a shake and it still blows my mind! I believe, it DOESN’T MATTER what METHOD, PRACTICE, MIND CONTROL TECHNIQUE or any other MANIPULATION TATIC you can conjure up, YOU WILL NOT SAVE YOURSELF, YOU GROUP OR PROSPER OR GROW!THEY HAVE MESSED WITH GOD’S LAWS, there is no escaping this! SO SHAME ON THEM! This will be the death of whatever they could possible DREAM! So I guess the few worthless dollars they gained, is worth selling your soul!
They have created division, destruction, destitution for many! They will pay the price! They may be enjoying the fruits of that corruption so to speak, but there is nothing on this green earth worth selling your soul for! I wish I could believe they didn’t know what they were doing, BUT THAT IS NOT THE CASE! So therefore, they may be able to continue to poison and control the minds of others with their false teachings that obviously THEY THEMSELVES DO NOT FOLLOW! They have ruined peoples relationships, abused friendships, stolen for financial gain, and F$$K WITH MY FRIENDS AND FAMILY and all of yours too and for this I will wait and watch for them to self-destruct!!!!!!!!!!
So when did you say we can get together for a BEER?
I am so sorry for all of your suffering! But am glad to see the HEALING BEGIN!
I hope Amthrax, Vogel, Juicescam, and ALL OF THE REST OF YOU, WILL SEE WHY THERE IS NO WORDS TO DESCRIBE THE GRATITUDE WE FEEL AND WHY WE CANNOT FIND THE WORDS TO DESCRIBE IT FOR THOSE TO FULLY UNDERSTAND HOW GRATEFUL WE TRULY ARE!
KEEP ON HEALING, TOGETHER WE WILL ACHIEVE MORE!
The indoctrination is so real, and those of us who were in it aren’t even aware of it. I remember hearing the term “TEAM Culture” a lot, basically meaning having our own “culture” of sorts. It’s freaky. They all acted the same, most dressed the same, business-like and such. They looked up to the leaders and called them by first name. I came from an old-fashioned, polite-society (foster) home. It was Mr or Mrs until we are better acquaiinted. Immediately my upline would correct me and say “Claude” or “Orrin”. Well, I certainly don’t know these guys, where is the polite to-do that’s generally required in any society until a personal acquaintence is made? And all this “instant friend” business is spooky. I’m reserved, and suddenly I’m thrust into this hug-a-thon. Sheesh. Sorry for venting, but it really goes against all that I’ve learned growing up.
Also, another thing that got my goat is “You have to go into debt in order to become successful.” That goes against any bit of common sense anyone would naturally have. Sure, people take out loans to purchase a franchaise, however, this isn’t a franchaise. It’s a freaking MLM scheme. Why go beyond your limits? Does it truly make any sense at all?
And the sacrificing! Our kids need us. Early developmental organisations and teachers will tell you that a child’s earliest years are the most crucial time for emotional developmental and bonding with his parents. The TEAM’s perspective is way off-base, and goes against basic psychology. Basic common sense in child-rearing. I’m a mother of 2 special-needs children and I myself am disabled. We have specific support systems in place and yes, they INVOLVE THE PARENTS!! I’d much rather attend development week and workshops for parents with special needs children than to to frigging meetings that only repeats themselves over and over and over and over!
I’ve ranted and raged a bit on Juicescam’s blog, and I hope I don’t bore you guys by repeating myself on here, lol *blush* Just read this mini-thread and had to vent, is all. I got a lot more to say, but I’d better shut up and slurp my tea.
Regards, Izzy
Talking from a practical point of view, I think people really are getting frustrated and came across your blog. Upon reading the posts and comment threads, they do help us to open up. I myself have been sharing with people this blog, but not sure anyone I know has read it. I’d say give it some more time, and keep sharing this blog, especially to those of us who have gone away from TEAM, and more and more people will speak up.
Hi, Orrinsux, that really is a punch in the gut, isn’t it. 😦 I’m so sorry you had be exposed to this foolishness and greed, and hopfully soon all this will come into the mainstream light, and also a class-action lawsuit. Anything to bring these buggers to justice and to save more people from being ripped off. I personally would like to see tighter control on Multi-Level Marketing by the Federal Trade Commission, the Canadian Competition Bureau, and world wide.
Right now, I know that TEAM is illegal in any involvement with Amway in the UK. I’d like to see the same action again here in North America. I hope to also see TEAM closed and made illegal, period. Their practises are highly unethical.
Webelieved and Will, there is now a classification of cults called “commercial cults” More and more people are speaking out against these kinds of cults so I think they had to put in a new classification. I now there’s a lot of discussions on Amway being a commercial cults, as I’ve seen it addressed a few times, it’ll only be a matter of time before they do the same way as TEAM. If you haven’t done so (and this is good for I Quit) please read http://howcultswork.com and there’s some valuable insight on how these organisations work from a mind-control/cultic perspective.
I wonder if TEAMers were even constantly texting each other even when they were on the loo! tee hee
Just think about all the older Amway Diamonds who drank Orrin’s punch……..you never hear about those people but again I know for a fact that many of them were making a decent monthly check (not saying they made it all via sales…….it was a combo of sales, tools, and functions). Because of their age they can’t really start all over again. It’s so sad.
webelieved, I am so happy to hear that you are laughing again. What you have been through was years of emotional abuse and, that takes time to undo. You have been through literal hell and come out on the other side, so you are a very strong person and you will find the joy and happiness that you so deserve.
I do understand your fear and I wouldn’t want you to do anything to jeopardize yourself or your family any further.
I just wish an attorney would read this blog and take this on pro bono. If there was a fund set up solely for the purpose of funding litigation against Orrin & his puppets, I would gladly give to it. Arg. I feel so helpless.
It would be nice, for sure, I agree.
I was very close to Chuck and Colleen Goetschel too. It made me sick to my stomach to see TEAM promote Chuckie as a man of moral integrity. Cheating on your wife and ignoring your brand new boys is hardly someone who qualifies for Father/Husband of the year! Colleen has remarried and is doing wonderful.
Colleen is out of TEAM as well?
This commenter requested that her comments be removed from this site.
Orrinsux:
Thanks for sharing a great piece of info. Very interesting thatChuck cheated on Colleen because EVERYONE on the Team was lead to believe that Colleen was the reason why they separated and Chuck tried VERY hard to fix the relationship but at the end of the day he couldn’t. This was how Chuck spoke on stage, saying that the ‘most’ important thing was family, and then he’d cry. My Policy Coucil member told all his leaders that Chuck had enough of her ditziness, she was uncooperative and pulled away from the business, or more less didn’t want to do anything – “became lazy”. Please elaborate if you can?
Wow! Powerful stuff. I’m so glad you’re all finding each other. I think that MV is unravelling, so expect to see more distributors peeling off in droves; and I’m sure they’ll be plenty bitter too.
Your statements are so powerful — I keep thinking that you should band together and send all your stories as “victim impact statements” to the FTC. If there are a few of you in one state, you might also try to get the ear of a sympathetic congressman. There’s also the Department of Justice. Also, check out the Center for Science in the Public Interest — they’ve taken on some interesting class action suits in the past (they helped nailed Airborne and the acai weight loss pill scammers). Lastly, try to get in touch with the authors of the Forbes article on Woodworm’s pyramid scheming; they sure seem like they’d be sympathetic.
You might also try Googling consumer class action lawyers and see what comes up.
V-Liz: yes, Colleen left all the craziness as soon as she physically and financially could. There is so much that I know about this situation but due to my promise to Colleen to keep things confidential I won’t go into the details.
Unknown: If that really happened then that just puts the icing on the cake as far as I’m concerned. FACT: Chuckieboy (that’s what me and Colleen call him) cheated on Colleen with a girl sitting on the front row at the Tuesday night open meetings (During Amway days of course). He left that girl then found another one who he eventually settled down with. At least that’s the last I heard. I can tell you absolutely positively 1000% that Chuckieboy caused the marriage to crumble. He was nothing moors than a controlling *ss *ole! Those of you who know Colleen would remember that she showed up one weekend with very large……how do I say this…….hmmmm…….let’s just say she got a “Dolly Parton Makeover”. Ha! Chuckieboy made her get a “G” cup. Yes, a “G” cup. She didn’t want them but Chuckieboy was so mentally abusive to her she felt like she needed to submit to his authority. To prove my point the first thing she did when she finally got away from Chuckieboy was to get those ridiculous things taken out so that she looked normal. She had to beg Chuckieboy to spend time with their two small sons. She had to beg him for financial support. Colleen probably at times looked like a Ditz but it was all because of Chuckieboy’s controlling ego behind the scenes. I can assure you that he is NOT what they make him out to be that’s for sure. Everything i’ve said is 1000% true because I was very close to Colleen during this tough situation. Ugh!! I get so mad thinking about it.
Two more things: Colleen didn’t cheat on Chuckieboy and she actually did pull away from the biz because she had had enough of both Chuckieboy and Amway. At least they were right about the second thing. Ha!
This commenter requested that her comments be removed from this site.
This commenter requested that her comments be removed from this site.
This commenter requested that her comments be removed from this site.
Orrinsux:
Thank you for sharing your personal experience about the truth between Chuck and Colleen. I must say, my eye’s are opened. Chuck and Colleens ‘storey’ sounds EXACTLY like another Team Policy Council’s ‘true’ storey… but no one knows about this. This is another dark secret, probably Orrin doesn’t even know the ‘real’ character of those closest to him.
I hope to hear more stories from you Orrinsux.
What’s happening with Chuck today, meaning who is he following? Randy? Lance? I’m curious what those people are up too. The last time I heard about that whole group, I heard they were not doing well…
I love Will’s idea of being able to get in contact with each other. So many positive things could happen from that. I am not sure how we could get that done but I love the idea. As I am reading these posts the one of the constant themes is hurt and loss. My question is now what? How can we organize this pain into something meaningful? I like where Vogel is headed with a class action, Senator, Dateline, or Forbes. How do we warn Pastor Steve Camp in Florida and the other churches these guys are laying the ground work to scam? What are our options?
Amthrax, I think that so many people are commenting on here now has everything to do with TEAM/Monavie and its leaders (Chris Brady, Tim Marks, Orrin Woodward, Jim Martin etc.) acting more like it’s a cult than a business. When people leave the scam these leaders get on the phone and curse them out and inform them they are not sticking with the plan and they are making a horrible mistake. They then go on to treat them like dirt. You can go from having them pretend to be your best friend to having them not be a part of your life at all. Nice friendship huh? They are acting like this because the bottom of the pyramid is falling out from under them and they are scared and nervous!!!
beleived, here is something I wrote to a teamster named “shaunjoeb” on another topic on amthrax that was blabbing his nonsense.
“I wonder if Shaunjoeb got permission from his upline to say those things? As we all know the “minions” or “bottom of the pyramid” cannot say or do anything that is not pre-approved by their upline. He must not have listened to CD about blind obedience to the “life coach” enough times. How hilarious is it that grown men and women worship these life coaches? They will do whatever the life coach says no matter what the cost and then sit back and make fun of people that have normal money paying 9-5 jobs like they are the ones in captivity. “Dream big” as long as its what your life coach wants you to dream about. These guys dont see that they are ones in 24/7 captivity to their uplines and life coaches!!!”
They call them life coaches?!?!?! That is awesome. Anyway, the crosslining inside the church is the worst. One body of Christ unified together in his work on the cross unless your not on my team. What?
I have to second that. I think enough people have realised they’ve been scammed and no doubt there’s more to follow.
For the sake of anyone who has, who is or who will be (if this is allowed to continue) a victim of this atrocious scam (or the next when they decide to jump ship and leave an even bigger path of devastation), complaints to the appropriate authorities needs to happen – as well as a class action lawsuit.
We’ve all be complaining on behalf of those who have been rorted and robbed for a long time now, but no doubt more credence would be given to those who’ve been directly impacted.
Webelieved
This is tragic and appalling, I am glad you survived this!
That is just it; we are survivors!
Now that’s some more positive for all those who are intoxicated on the Happy, I’m always so Happy-(system)
Webelieved, I Quit, Izzy, Will, and all the rest that have been torn in many ways from this, sorry if I left you out, just wanted to say that Vogel & Humiliated have a very good point and I know, I and some others when we first left talked about class action but there was no way we were emotionaly or physically ready or had the strength to pursue that.
I too had a similar story about a mysterious illness that took me out for about 18 months maybe I will share that some time.
It is stories like this though that makes me capitalize every word I say because it infuriates me!
So I might as well apologize right now for my earlier post because I let go of some of the pent up garbage, now I know I definitely need more healing, either that or take up target practice, boxing , or perhaps just move to Libya and join their cause or all of the above!
Speaking of Libya I still believe we live in the greatest country in the world and am grateful. So sorry to everyone that gets annoyed by the capitalization (emotional speaking), it is annoying I know. But again I will thank you all for letting me rant, release and vent! I realize this has been from the oppression that was from so many years, plus I have just always wanted to tell “some what I thought of them!” So, I really hope the “some” are reading this but I am sure they are too gutless to come on here and post!
I don’t think Amthrax could have foreseen or expected such a flood of bold people coming and it is just beginning! So I think it is safe to speak for us all and say Thank You again Amthrax for allowing us to vent the oppression!
Amthrax
You have my permission to give my email to team deception, will, webelieved, I Quit but just a warning I forgot my password for my email and have not checked it since I started it recently so I will try and get on that right away.
Humiliated
Thank You for the validation, kind and wise words. I appreciate them and sure the others do too.
This has been a long and arduous journey to put it very mildly, to even get to this point, which I believe and think it is evident in all the recent posts. I agree with all you have shared and know this is just the beginning to the healing and actions that we will and are facing. I also deeply believe, as painful as this has been, there is a reason that will catapult me and others into the real purpose and journey of our continued futures.
This process is a very difficult one to express and explain, there are a lot of emotional and for some (me included) physical healing to complete. I too had a similar mysterious illness that took me completely out for 18 months, which I never got an answer to for the debilitating symptoms nor could it be explained my many tests, doctors, and thousands of dollars. I am way better now but it has taken a long time and I am grateful to be alive and set free. I too thought I wouldn’t recover and have a strong inclination it was due to oppression and stress.
Generally I would consider myself realistic but optimistic too, but this experience has taken a tremendous toll in so many ways. I believe I and the others who are speaking out will find the healing needed.
Speaking out on this site has been very freeing and for myself, believes it is a stepping stone to a greater healing that is yet to come.
So again, thank you for the validation, it is so needed for all of us that have been struggling and are breaking free.
Orrinsux-
Glad you are here and sorry for your unpleasant experience, but as they say welcome to the crowd, you are definitely not alone here.
This is very sad and makes me angry about the “not paying your friends”, especially when it is so extremely repetitious and noisy how they tout, their “Living by Christian principles, Integrity, Honesty, Humbleness etc., etc., they are just words that they do not follow.
Amen to that! I wish the whole firm of attorney’s and fraud experts would come here to read this blog too!
Nothing would satisfy me more to expose the whole truth, because even though there is a lot shared on here there is much more that can be learned and exposed.
Thanks for your generous ideas. Now it is where to go from here.
I think I might have heard that one you might be referring to.
webelieved, Speak your truth & anyone else that feels the need to purge…please don’t apologize for your posts! You guys are amazing & very informative! You are speaking honestly and from the heart, and it is extremely cathartic for you, so let it flow! SPEAK IN ALL CAPITAL LETTERS IF YOU FEEL LIKE IT!!!! PUNCH A PILLOW!!!! CRY!!!DO ALL OF THE THINGS YOU HAVEN’T BEEN ALLOWED TO DO!!!SAY ALL OF THE THINGS YOU HAVEN’T BEEN ALLOWED TO SAY!!!
Whew, it is exhausting talking in capital letters! Your posts are also a fascinating insight into the black hole that it TEAM/Monavie. It truly is disturbing how you people were manipulated right out of the gate. Can someone explain specifically what they were afraid that the “newbies” would discover so you had to be isolated? Were you instructed to do this to your ‘newbies’?
I am also confused as to how/why certain people were “chosen” to have the money? How is that you could/would lose your downline? Was it just arbitrary? Did anyone keep copies of their original contracts? How about the “new” contract”?
Webelieved, you are absolutely right, these people are NOT qualified to be life coaches! Considering that you can become “certified” on-line in a month with some programs, I am not even sure I agree with the concept generally. I think that you need years and years of formal and informal study of the human condition before you can assume the honor of trying to assist someone in finding their “potential” and these programs should be very individualized. The only thing that your “leaders” are teaching you is how to be effective con men/women. Truly diabolical.
I think it is fantastic that you all will be chatting “off-line” and take the healing to a deeper level. Please continue to educate and share anything with us that you feel “safe” divulging.
I also love all of Vogel’s suggestions! Let me know if I can help with anything!!
Isn’t liberation wonderful?? I am feeling so optimistic for all of you!!
As I’m reading these first hand accounts, I keep thinking how they match the clinical definition of post-traumatic stress disorder to a tee.
http://ctc.georgetown.edu/pdf/ptsdchecklistPCL_C.doc
This is serious stuff. You’ve all been through the ringer.
In addition to recruiting the FTC, the media, and a class action litigator, I’d love it if we could get a couple of counselors on here who specialize in (a) cults and (b) PTSD.
One step at a time…you’re off to a great start !
hmm… how odd. because I’m practically stress free. yet we’ve all involved ourselves in the same business.
Ryan. Are you kidding me? Have you READ these posts? For the love of God, have the decency to leave these people alone and do NOT minimize their pain with your colossal load of B.S..
Seriously, please don’t turn this into your soap box and let these people grieve . It is what a decent human being would do. You may or may not agree with what is being said here but now is NOT the time to turn this into a debate. There is so much pain here . If you come back on here, it will show that you truly are a heartless, selfish, ego-manical bastard.
I beg of you, go away. These are human beings who have suffered greatly and you NEED to show them some respect.
Humiliated. Well said, and i agree, much respect must be paid forward to all people. absolutely, and i thank you for not being harsh and disrespectful like many others on here tend to treat me.
Call me a “heartless, selfish, ego-manical, basterd.” But i’m not leaving just yet and for good reason. here =) let me show you something.
“There is so much pain here.” as you said, and this is true. and it is still true, since this site was created, and it will remain true until attitudes and direction of the people here change. Here people say ‘Yes! CRY! Be upset!’ (<— loosely quoted) and they place and blame all of their pain on "the man". Yes i know you've all been hurt, But residing on here doesn't help when all you guys do is talk about and make fun of and gossip about something you hate. It only creates more hate and sorrow, and makes a habit of it. And then everyone here gets turned into this attacking person any time they are confronted with anything they don't like… rather then just dealing with it or learning to accept, like you want me to do. And if you don't believe that is true, look at my posts and tell me that Aurora or Rocket or Vlogel doesn't leap head on into attack mode every time i make an appearance. Now i admit my last comment was asking for it lol, however if you read any of my other posts you'll notice i don't attack anyone first… well good luck mate
or as my brother said “anyone who actually reads everything on here will end the day depressed” lol
Dude…just F off! already. These people are cult survivors and PTSD victims. Part of their recovery process involves being able to freely share their thoughts and feelings without having some insensitive douche (active cult member) telling them that just need to be quiet and get over it. Their healing will near completion when justice is served. Pick up your kazoo and write a song about that (but lord, please, don’t make me listen to it…I’m still trying to recover from the aural rape inflicted from listening to your cacophonous ode to Monavie).
Ryan said: “And if you don’t believe that is true, look at my posts and tell me that Aurora or Rocket or Vlogel doesn’t leap head on into attack mode every time i make an appearance.”
Go to a forum for survivors of rape or incest and tell the victims that they need to be quiet because they are only making things worse by talking about it…see how warmly your comments are received. You’re a clueless, heartless, sociopath…a perfect fit for TEAM Monavie.
Ok Ryan, I was trying to have some respect for you but you are now asking for it. I have read your posts Ryan and I am sorry to say but now, more then ever, I think you are a little mentally unbalanced. I respectfully asked you to go away and I would have had a great deal of respect for you had you done this. You haven’t.
You have shown me nothing except that you are more interested in being RIGHT then being a caring & compassionate human being. Please, do yourself a favor and google “commercial cults” and see how RIGHT you are.
These people aren’t gossiping, they are slowly getting to the TRUTH about the people they idolized, something you appear to know little about. They are purging. They need to CONFRONT the demon before they can let it go, it is all part of the healing process.To block this is to deny the pain. Since you are in NO WAY qualified to come on here and dictate how this process should work, again, I respectfully ask that you go away.
BTW “the MAN” you refer to is a criminal who is perpetrating consumer fraud against innocent people & their families, so forgive me if I harbor a little anger or hatred. Good thing HE is your idol.
Ryan,I feel compassion for you because, if you are any kind of a human being, you will be reacting just like everyone else here when you realize that you have laid down your life, your morals and your ethics for a common criminal. And you know what? These people that you are telling to “just get over it” and “move on” will be here to help you to crawl and then walk through your pain.
Know that there is NOTHING you can say right now except for “I am sorry” (period) that will benefit anyone.
I’m moderating Ryan’s comments from here on out. I’ve decided that this blog post should be reserved for ex-TEAM members to discuss their personal stories and experiences. If you want to debate the virtues of TEAM, you can find plenty of posts here:
https://amthrax.wordpress.com/tag/orrin-woodward/
Vogel. Wierd, I was writing my post as you were writing yours and they are very similar! Your comment “Go to a forum for survivors of rape or incest and tell the victims that they need to be quiet because they are only making things worse by talking about it…” is so right, it is scary. I have done work with abused women and children and they talked & talked until their hearts were rid of the darkness that had lived within them for years. It was after this that they began to fill their hearts with light and move forward. No one is saying that you have to be “stuck in the past” but you certainly can not avoid moving through it either.
Good call Amthrax. This needs to be a safe place!
I remember my upline ‘The Man’ getting upset and trying to make me feel guilty for making financial decisions for my family without consulting him.
I am sorry, but I am a GROWN MAN and can manage my finances fine. My wife is a GROWN WOMAN and is capable of thinking on her own. We made a decision as a family to buy a new house and car over during the time that we were building team. We were looking to move and needed a new car ANYWAYS, even prior to joining this business. THE MAN (Orrin) got upset because he thought we were not looking up to him as we should and using him as a MENTOR. WTF – I understand taking your advice on building a network marketing business, because that is what you do (even though I now know you apply immoral, illegal tactics), however, you are not qualified to give me advice on my finances or my marriage and every other area of my life that you want to control.
Looking back it cracks me up that they think they are marriage counselors and all that garbage. Most of the Diamonds and Triple 100s in the business have MEGA issues with their families and finances. They DISGUISE the fact that they are struggling financially on stage by showing all their fancy BLING and talking about trips they go on, but in reality most of their businesses and leaders are going backwards and broke. Show me one successful business that Orrin has setup on the outside of his Team mlm…PLEASE someone show me ONE!!! He always talks a big game that he invests him money in other businesses (playing around in the famous B type quadrant), however, only stories that I ever heard in the field from Triple 100s, RT members and other PC members who left this business like Billy Florence and Randy Haugen is that the guy is a FOOL financially and all of his businesses that he tries to start on the outside FAIL.
Hi, Orrinsux, please be rest assured that I would never ask personal questions about people’s personal lives, and the reason why I asked if she has left TEAM is because I’m always glad when someone leave such a rotten organisation. I can’t wait until the day I can report my upline realises her mistake and leaves TEAM.
Amthrax- As I was reading to get caught up I of course came across Ryans insensitivity. I was going to suggest to all that the ultimate strategy for dealing with this dufus would be for everyone to unconditionally ignore him. Under no circumstance would ANY of us respond to any idiotic post of his. This would take INCREDIBLE discipline but if we can all build this “biz” then we can certainly do it. Think of how FRUSTRATING it would be to have ZERO response!! I would thoroughly enjoy participating in that program!! Sorry if you disagree but I’m kinda wired that way!! Just a thought….
After leaving a few posts he would actually be getting help from us in making himself look as moronic as he obviously is.
I am in awe of your ability with the English language! You are officially one of my heros!!!!
Ya know guys, I found this site by a fluke of chance. Or was it divine intervention?! I believe the latter but whatever. I was just researching around on a whim to see if anyone I knew was making any headway yet. We quit this thing back in “08 and I hadn’t pursued anything with it since then. So why all of a sudden do I get this urge to look around? Why did I think of this nightmare at all? Good question. Wild huh? All I can say is I’m very glad to be here with ya’ll now. It’s nice to know we weren’t alone in our feelings/experiences. I’m also glad to be part of the healing process for others. I realize now that I needed a little help myself. The best part is I know if you’re here, its real.
P.S.- I still want to kick someones ass.
Amthrax, you can give my email address to anyone of these guys/gals that want it. It’s all about helping and if I can I will.
I quit. I agree, I think that dealing with someone like Ryan is with deafening silence as he is like a naughty child, where bad attention is better then no attention at all…I have read his posts in the past and just rolled my eyes, but this time he crossed a line and i couldn’t let him get away with it.
It is good that you want to pull out an extra large can of WHOOP ASS now! It means you are prepared for battle!!
I am going to look up the movie myself.
Does anyone know whatever happened to Mark Crawford, Don Wilson, Randy Haugen, and the other Amway Diamonds who followed Orrin? I’d love to know what happened to them.
Wow, I wish Ryan Seewald can seriously read this particular post, as well as the one where Vogel exposes that Guru site, he should think twice after reading it :-s or perhaps not…too much “negativity” :-p
Who is the other PC member?
Humiliated
I am going to attempt to answer some of your questions, this may get lengthy, and it might get a little confusing because of the “language” used in the organizations. , I will do my best and maybe others will comment and shed more light that would further help in the understanding.
Your comment:
It truly is disturbing how you people were manipulated right out of the gate. Can someone explain specifically what they were afraid that the “newbies” would discover so you had to be isolated?
First, there is 2 ways that the isolation plays out, “inside & outside.”
The manipulation and isolation begins by trying to control the “newbies” information right from the start, it is very important(and all the leaders know this) so that they only get the information from the system and get them immediately to an open meeting, seminar, major, or house meeting (where they would bring their prospects and others whose leaders are working with in their teams would do the same, “TEAM APPROACH” Sling, Squeeze, Side Action = ANOTHER LONG POST), the reason this is important, is so if they would talk to someone or read anything that was “negative” or anything that would raise “DOUBT”( leaders spent a great majority of time trying to control this, hence why they try a silence the critic, those that have the biggest business became the best at this, so if you wanted to really make it you would have to get good at this, (shameful I know, I am as we speak even seeing more of what becomes blinded, most don’t recognize this it is a slow and patient process and I just by writing it am seeing how really shameful it is) and we have a very large organization, this topic alone would take a book).You have to keep this fresh in the “newbies” minds that what they have just been sold: “that they could get financially free, all their dreams, etc” needs to be extremely controlled in the beginning, until you can get them “sold on the idea by all the Happy, Excited People, fully vested etc, that eventually they themselves buy into. Everyone is different some take many seminars but others buy it hook, line and sinker after the first one. (That and team approach, is why there are such large numbers because this is extremely effective.)
Doubt is the number 1 killer of anyone’s business, and they all know it. I cannot stress this enough, how important this is to them. I could go on for days about the indoctrination but hope this clarifies some of it.
Secondly, the “isolation” that I think webelieved is referring to is the isolation that all of us on here are expressing right now, that we have all felt because of fear, exhaustion and not enough strength to speak out, hence why it takes some years to start to speak out.
Your questions
Did anyone keep copies of their original contracts? How about the “new” contract”?
I explained the exact process in a conversation, Feb. 18, 2011 with “Jhon”, under the “WWDB Triple Diamonds Greg Duncan Bankrupt” so for the sake of repeating that post, hopefully you can read it and it answers those questions. (Speaking of which, I wonder if Amthrax could get the post’s numbered?)
Your questions
I am also confused as to how/why certain people were “chosen” to have the money? How is that you could/would lose your downline?
The “losing your downline,” people are referring to the transition from Q to MV.
This is my number 1, of my hottest buttons (and my spouse) as you can see from my earlier post of all caps, thanks by the way for understanding. Holy crap, I don’t even know if I can get this out to anyone and it could even remotely resemble a clear picture!
This was the end, where there was no way to deny the truth, it was the all telling, the revealing of their true Character, Greed and the Most Unspeakable Injustice, it is exactly why we confronted, stood up and not even for ourselves, it was for our team that they destroyed through this very process, people being threatened, stolen, and manipulated. This puts me in a fighting mode that I cannot even describe.
Finally my spouse could without a doubt, could see clearly that Orrin and our Diamond Guzzardo( he was inside these guys heads for well over a decade, to say we know these people would be an understatement, the worst abuse of friendship I have seen in my life, the clever manipulation for years of how “they cared” it is completely and utterly despicable and believe me it is a good thing we were many miles away, the anger I felt at what they did to rip out someone’s heart and then stomp on it and spit on it is truly undesirable!
I will try and get back on track here, they needed to Rank THEMSELVES,(MV plan, which no-one understood because no-one even knew they we were shifting to until the last minute) “The controllers” of this unspeakable actions, Orrin and Guzzardo’s at least in our group, except we were putting our outside legs in ourselves(this may not make sense to you) but our main taproot and another big leg the Guzzardo’s were DICTATING (and I am serious, this I am not even sure is the most appropriate word)this is a whole another long, long story, I hope you can get some understanding though. Besides themselves, that was the first and foremost importance of the ranking, they wanted “certain and chosen Leaders” the one’s that had built and they didn’t want them to quit because they needed them with this new “pay-plan” to be able to make money so they would continue (2-fold and they could show MV how many “big leaders and numbers they had, this feeds into their ego like you would not believe, which I have heard there was a “special deal there but for the world to see if or what the TRUTH is? This would probably be highly unlikely that we would ever see the facts. They were protecting and trying to get others to steal and take their own personal’s and give them to certain leaders was criminal to us is exactly why I have such a difficult time containing myself(which I believe Will explained it very well.) These leaders, us and the rest on here are the ones that built their organizations for them brought huge numbers, so they could live the lifestyles they tout and are living and bragging about to this day. I believe with all my heart they “chose” certain one’s based on loyalty and those that did exactly as they would tell without question. I would have to tell the rest of the story, in another book.
Now, you have to stitch over to their “Leadership/Dev. Bogus, Indoctrination System”, where we were paid for the “system “based on the numbers we brought except that is all we knew, it wasn’t like they told you,’ you make so much an hour,” they had “they proprietary formula” that not even the “profit-sharers” who were paid from it knew exactly how you were paid and could not figure out if they were even being honest and paying you right or to check if they may have made any mistakes in calculating. This is totally separate from the “product business.” This again, where they chose certain leaders to give ours and others “the very numbers that would qualify us for that profit-sharing to be paid to us” but they gave to someone else “upline” so therefore, they can justify them not paying us. This is again a very long, long, story how they came to this conclusion, but it is another book full of lies, deception, and downright corruption. I know this is extremely long but will give you insight into the minds of the calculated corruption that many of us have suffered. It is a very dark and complicated web that began years ago from the founders of the System. That is why I believe with every cell in my body, that if you remove the “indoctrination/ system, you will be left with either a legitimate sales business or they would collapse. It is not the other way around.
Hi, Webelieved, I have a “Crosslining Story” – When I first joined MV/TEAM, I also met another lady from church who was quite excited about the scientific part of Monavie. Now, she was like me, love researching. I didn’t know her number, and I wanted to talk science talk with the lady so I asked my upline for her number, and she knew that I know the lady from church, and played guitar with my husband’s father. That’s the first I’ve heard of Crosslining. My upline told me she won’t give me the lady’s number because I was in the B leg, and the other gal was in the A leg. Then she went on to explain that talking to other team members who are not directly in the same leg as I was could destroy the upline’s business. I didn’t understand what she was talking about, and she set up an appointment with me, her upline and herself to explain to me.
Here’s what they told me — In Claude Hamilton’s team, there were 2 legs. There were also 2 friends who happened to be in opposite legs. They would talk, but nothing about business. One guy was working his business and the other guy wasn’t working as hard but still was making a sizable income. Now since the other guy really working his busienss was meeting with Claude more often than the other fella. One day, the nworking-hard fella mentioned that Claude was busy and he only got to see him a couple of times a week. The not-so-working-hard fella said really? and that he only got to see him once every three days. Then jealousy set in and both of them ended up badmouthing each other’s team and it nearly ruined Claude Hamiliton’s business.
I was careful to not crossline at all after hearing that.
I’m kinda wondering now as I wrote this, how plausible this story really is. It does seem like the working-hard fella was actually trying to spark jealousy, I don’t know. It does all seem twisted.
Sorry, I still am confused, and I have so many questions in my head, maybe I do need some more deprogramming, I know it doesn’t seem fair, but on the other hand it was to prevent jealousy, I don’t know. You mean crosslining was forbidden in all of TEAM? Not just Claude Hamilton’s team?
Anyway, enough of my mumbo-jumbo, that’s what I experienced, hope someone does make sense out of it, I want to get to the bottom of all this crap. Regards, Izzy
It is really good to let stuff off my chest, for sure, but all this seem so confusing, I just know that I’m angry, I’m facing this debt every day, I’m trying to forgive my upline, I’m going to get rid of my last box of TEAM materials, but I’m still battling emotions and stuff. I think it’s safe to say I’m still in shock and disbelief. I know what I got out of is wrong, though.
@Vogel, have you ever heard of Rick Ross? He’s a professional cult deprogrammer, and I have been to his forum when I searched under commercial cults and TEAM, and found a few posts on Amway/Quixtar, I had to dig realy deep, though.
His site is here —– http://www.rickross.com/ I think he is religous, but at least he doesn’t overdo it. It might be a good place to dig into, and I’m thinking of contacting him myself about my experience with TEAM. There’s so much that I want to do, and I really do want to write my own blog post before I do anything, just working on an outline before I do anything.
Regards, Izzy
Ryan, I strongly urge you to be completely honest with yourself. If you’re not, then your life will be empty. Think about it.
Thanks, Amthrax.
Izzy – Will you create your own blog or will you just have Amthrax post an article for you on this site?
I have heard from numerous sources that both Billy and Randy DESPISE orrin. Go figure.
my guess is Claude, the guy is sleezy and I have heard many crazy stories about him from team members.
Cross-lining!! Don’t get me started, I will need proposal 19 to go thru in order to cope with my anger that I am feeling about this topic! lol
Will
If it is the one that I heard, he would have dark skin, could be wrong though.
Thank you for that Speak, I am not sure that I understand it all but it all sounds very cloak and dagger, and not in the least bit legal! I will check the other post that you mentioned.
Vogel, Humiliated, & Amthrax
Thanks from the bottom of my heart for your graciousness and FOR HAVING OUR BACKS.
What an unselfish act!
I pray by grace that you will see some how, what this really means to us.
We are truly grateful, not to mention it takes a lot of energy to fight off the brainwashed, lying,wolfs.
That is nothing compared to what you would get from one of the Policy Counsel, but I am sure you would be up for it, but them cowards use only their pawns! LOL
I wonder if Ryan is being paid or just getting his ego stroked (paid),when he reports back in, for sure the latter, that is exactly how Orrin works.
Which you do with an some amazing accuracy!
Thanks a bunch!
Ohhhhh SNAAAAAPPPPP!!!!
Will, it’ll be on my own WordPress blog (that’s why i got this new name because when I migrated my Windows Live Spaces to WordPress I got set up with this account, then later I came here to Amthrax’s blog WordPress automatically signed me into my velizabethwhite account so I decided to keep it) Anyway, I’m going to post on my own WordPress blog, then after that I’m going to contact Rick Ross and tell him my story, would like to see Orrin Woodward put on there. Not sure how far that will go.
But let me make it clear – I do ***NOT*** want to take away from Amthrax’s blog in any way, he’s doing a much better job than what I can even think of doing. The reason why I want to have a post up is so that I can easily tell people my story, and hope people like Rick Ross and other cult awareness site owners can help get all this melarkey into the mainstream.
Ummm…TEAM or Legacy…really all the same to me. You can’t build an honest business around a dishonest product. There’s just no way that anyone can justify the stupidly high cost or over-the top-claims of this worthless juice.
Izzy – take your tools to the curbside!! You will get the greatest sense of relief. It does blow knowing you are dumping out thousands and thousands of dollars. But in the end it is worthless crap anyways. I actually sat on my tools for years thinking I could sell them on ebay, but once I looked at all this #$%& on ebay I realized that it held NO VALUE and nobody wanted. I offered $7,000 worth of tools (Brand New) and it only went for $50. I was so upset I cancelled the auction and burned it all so that I could at least get some INSTANT GRATIFICATION out of that!! 😉 I know we are taught that INSTANT GRATIFICATION is the devil, but ‘DAMN! IT feels good to be a gangsta!!!’ To quote one of my favorite movies.
We have been hurt emotionally from this team system – because everything we did was controlled by our uplines. We have been told not to even talk with other team members that aren’t even in the same upline’s binary legs.
We have been hurt physically from the team system – because of the stress we had. So much turmoil, strain on relationships with our family and friends, some of us landed in hospital. I myself suffered big depression, I literally felt it in my chest – a tightening feeling. I had a miscarriage in April of last year, I think stress killed the baby.
We have been hurt financially from the team system – always putting money in and never getting a cheque. Working our asses off months in my case, years in most others’ cases. Draining our bank accounts, maxing out our credit cards/limits because we need to sacrifice and be in debt in order to be successful.
Now will you tell you why we react in anger???
Crosslining!!! In 2005 my kid had a b-day party and wanted to invite some of his friends from church. Yes, its the church that Orrin Woodward, Chris Brady, Tim Marks, Jim Martin went to, and it was a nightmare. Two of the kids that we had invited were on different legs in TEAM and were told buy their upline that it would be better if they did not allow the kids to go to the party!! Thanks great leaders.
Izzy – I am soooo sorrrry to hear about your pain and loss that you and your family experienced. You will be in our thoughts and prayers and I HOPE that you feel a sense of relief, calm and encouragement knowing that you are FREE on the road to recovery (like we all are) and our lives will ALL be better for moving forward in a positive direction vs. being TRAPPED in the SYSTEM (literally and metaphorically). I hope that we have the opportunity to meet one day or talk in person. I am positive that we could help each other cope, heal and move on. God Bless you!
Vogel – I agree. I think both organizations are involved in the SHADY quadrant, if you will, in the mlm world. I think Pampered Chef does a good example at being an honest, legit mlm and a company that can be used as a benchmark for what an mlm should be. (I am not a pamperd chef distributor and quite frankly I no longer have the energy to pursue another mlm EVER…due to my experience with Orrin Woodward in Team). But I do think that Pampered Chef does everything right (No pressure to SIGN UP, NO TOOL SCAM, and they RETAIL the products. THEY LEAD with the products and not the income opportunity and they also do not make you PERSONALLY consume $500 of juice each month or have a monthly pv requirement). Sorry to get off topic…just saying that I agree that Team and Legacy are in a very SHYYYYTTTIIIIEEE business.
I will say that if you rank douche’s in this industry. Orrin Woodward and Chris Brady are at the top and Randy Haugen and other leaders who LEFT Orrin would be at the bottom. They seem to have more integrity than the Team MonaVie kingpins. I don’t agree with their choice of business that they participate in, however, I do agree with their integrity for CHOOSING to LEAVE Orrin Woodward and his SCAM.
Vogel, lets not forget that 99.64% of people do not make any money in this scam….. It only leads to pain and a loss of friends. When I ask TEAMSTERS why they have to work two jobs and have the wife pick up a job or two just to break even they say that its not all about the money but its about becoming a leader. Tools scam or Juice Scam its a scam either way and the end result is your going to be broke with no one to lead.
Team Deception – too funny. The first thing these leaders do (I am talking Round Table Members, Former Triple 100s etc) is MAKE their wives go back and get jobs when the business FAILS to pull in the cash.
BOOM GOES THE DYNAMITE!!
I agree Vogel. I think they just saw the writing on the wall and decided to create their own scam, creating a bunch of B.S. principles they thought would attract all of the defectors of TEAM. It is manipulation at it’s finest, they are just saying what they think people now want to hear but it still makes NO sense. What the hell are these people selling and why? What on earth makes them qualified to think that they can train anyone in anything except the age old profession of snake oilery (my new word)? It is still just another pyramid scheme atop a pyramid scheme.
BTW, in my job, the CEO doesn’t presume to have the talent to “train” us in ANY part of the job. Training is contracted out to professionals with their various specialities, who have formally educated & established themselves in their “areas, they also have spotless reputations. But then again, I don’t work for a cult organization where any Joe off the street has the unmitigated gall to presume to tell me how to run my business and my life. Seriously, who the hell are Randy & Mark and why would ANYONE listen to them???
#10 of the Legacy GUIDING PRINCIPALS is unbelievable.
“The purpose for Legacy is to support the opportunity, not to be the opportunity”
THIS IS WHAT TEAM IS ALL ABOUT!!!! TEAM IS THE OPPORTUNITY. PERIOD.
I heard Mark Crawford and Randy Haugen’s Teams are hurting big time. Actually, I’ve heard many of their people are quiting, previous big leaders who were job optional are now working jobs and many are leaving to go to other opportunities.
I remember this time last year, I was on the way to an Open meeting, I was so stressed out I started crying hysterically, I couldn’t take it anymore (I mentioned this on Juicescam’s site) Hubby thought I was laughing at first – MEN! Anyway, I told him to turn the van around and that I couldn’t take it anymore. I never went since. A few days later I canceled both Monavie and TEAM website subscriptions. It was like a huge relief came over me then. I immediately went to the loo and threw up. I just wanted to throw everything in my body up, I don’t know why my body reacted this way. This was before I became pregnant.
Then in April, I lost my baby who was only six weeks old (in my womb) At that time I was so stressed out with the emotional turmoil/aftermath, and the debt. This was the time when I had 2 creditor companies telling me that I might want to look into filing for bankruptcy, because their services didn’t allow for someone in my case with such a high debt and low income combined.
I managed to avoid going down the bankruptcy route. I re-arranged my finances and told myself I was going to beat this motherf**ker no matter how much it pinched. I truly do thank G-d for wisdom because I looked at my finances and it’s showing that I’ve made progress. We should be out of debt in seven years.
I’m really writing this in hope Ryan would see this.
BTW I worked up the courage to throw out that last box of TEAM materials, Will. Took it to the garbage rood (we live in a high-rise apartment building) and just set it down. I had a long talk with the minister at Hubby’s church (I attend with him most times) and she was telling me to just get rid of that box so it won’t be on my mind. Your encouragement to get rid of it was the final boost. Thanks, mate.
Okay, enough rambling 🙂
No legitmate business or company would forbid its members who they can or can’t associate with. This is a cultic practise. A legitimate business wouldn’t even care what its members did in their personal lives – birthday parties are so insignificent to a company headquarters.
Will, are you kidding? $7000??? I truly hope that anyone looking into joining TEAM reads your comment as it demonstrates how absolutely worthless the tools are.
Izzy…you GO girl! Throw all of it away!! I am very sorry about your miscarriage though, and you are right, the stress you are under probably contributed to your loss. I couldn’t imagine going through that along with everything else that was going on in your life.
Izzy, I know that you are Canadian like myself & if you go to CBC Marketplace you will find a video clip about “Business in Motion”, a pyramid scheme that the RCMP recently busted. They were disguising their scheme by selling “vacation packages” which were incredibly overpriced. It is interesting and eerily similar to TEAM /MV. We can email MarketPlace and let them know what is going on with Monavie & TEAM , maybe they will consider doing a story on it if we refer them to this, and the JuiceScam sites. They are saying that Canada is now the new breeding ground for scams such as these.
There are also links to the Pyramid Scam alert etc. that are an interesting read.
I agree with Vogel, we don’t need any more of TEAM replicas and off-shoots.
OMGosh Will
I am laughing and laughing and laughing on your comment, it caught me off guard!
Hmm..Suprise!
@Will and Humiliated, yes, I just went to the floor where the garbage room and set the box in there. I don’t care what happens to it now, it’s no longer in my flat. (we live in a high-rise apartmet building)
I’ll go to the cbc marketplace site, thanks for the heads up, Humiliated ❤
If any of you do not know what is being referenced here follow this link to see which one has the “dark(er) skin”. Just sayin.
Argh, I can’t find the video called “Business in Motion” do you have a direct link, please? Thanks! 🙂
Izzy
Oh so sorry, we are here with you and we do care that this happened.
I feel it, the urge to capitalize every word again!
I am glad you are getting this out, and definitely getting rid of that last box, before the subliminal crap jumps out of the box!LOL
Good for you! Or you could burn it, that is what I did with all the paper garbage, it really is a healing moment!
Humiliated- I’ll throw my two cents worth in as well. The isolation starts right away but it happens so slowly that you really don’t notice it. It is hidden behind ideas and phraseology like “You are with whom you associate.” “I don’t need to watch the news or read the paper cuz when it gets bad enough someone will tell me!” CNN stands for “constant negative news”. ” You need to listen to at least two cd’s a day if you want to become a leader.” (SYSTEM cd’s) “If you need to listen to music listen to the Team music cd’s.” (these were cd’s with covers of various artists interspersed with soundbytes from Team cd’s) “You should be counseling with your movin on upline at least once a month so you will be on track to hit your goal.” “In order to assure there is adequate activity in your group you need to have contacting or phone calling sessions” “Have PV (product volume) parties for the people who had the high volume the month before.” “If your brother-in-law is negative then don’t get around him. You don’t need to hear all that negative. They don’t understand.”
As one gradually buys into this behaviour it becomes “normal and routine”. Your “inputs” are controlled, your association is controlled and your “free” time is controlled as well. This is explained away as necessary for you to achieve your goals and dreams. You can’t accomplish these things unless you are being influenced by winners all the time.
As far as what to be afraid of for your newbies is easy. Common sense. MLMs don’t have a very good rep right? We had to try to keep the newbie focused on their dream instead of on their lack of ability to pay for all the insanity. All under the disguise of “the dream”. “don’t ask your family what they think about this how would they know anything? How long have they been involved? ” Heres another great quote that was used, “Everybody wants to see you get by just not by them.” That was one used to explain why someone would try to talk you out of this. Or this one that the big dogs loved to spew “People of integrity expect to be believed. But when they’re not they let time prove them right.”
As I’m writing this I must admit that it makes me cringe. So much manipulation! It’s amazing what you can convince yourself of when it gets spun the right way and thats all you hear… The process is slow and steady and as I’ve said its all hidden in the chase of the dream. In other words, we were effectively bamboozled with bullshit. Combine all this with a monthly seminar that had “recognition” of achievement (which started with small ones and went right on up to bigger and bigger “pins”. When you keep seeing one person here and there hitting something you then believe that “If they can do it so can I”. Now ask the rest of the bloggers how many of them ever went backwards in the biz and had to rebuild just to get back to where they’d already been. Then ask how many times!
You can do it! You can do it! You can do it! Don’t be a wimp. Don’t be a couch jockey. Remember when youy’re driving home at 3 AM and you see the “blue hue” in the windows that you’re doing what 95% of the population won’t do.” Yeah, no shit. I wonder why.
Hope that helps.
Hey when are they gettin the Team Island? They must be almost ready to pull the trigger on that right? Hee hee, ha ha, hoo hoo RRREEETTCCHHH. HAWK, SPIT.
LOL – The TEAM Island was in my DREAM CIRCLE. I am such a DOUCHE for believing….wait, I WAS such a DOUCHE. SO glad I took the RED PILL and became unplugged from the MATRIX!!
OOPS this could be taken wrong, didn’t realize it until after I posted it, I got the sentence in the wrong place, this is how it was suppose to be:
That is nothing compared to what you would get from one of the Policy Counsel, but I am sure you would be up for it, but them cowards use only their pawns! LOL
Which you do with an some amazing accuracy!
Thanks a bunch!
I wonder if Ryan is being paid or just getting his ego stroked (paid),when he reports back in, for sure the latter, that is exactly how Orrin works.
Oh boy, that did not read right!
Here it is Izzy.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manitoba/story/2011/01/13/man-bim-charges-business-in-motion.html
Actually I found a video called Easy Money http://www.cbc.ca/marketplace/2009/easy_money/main.html
I’ll look at the news article after watching the video.
Things are definitely lookin up!!!!!!!!!!!
It does help, iquit. Thanks!
Great replies everyone…all made good points.
I think this thing is going to unravel faster than an old moth-eaten sweater, and when it does, I’m going to pop some popcorn, crack open a frosty beverage, and sit back in a big ol’ comfortable chair to enjoy the entertaining show as the pins start turning on each other. It’ll be like a watching a snake devouring it’s own tail.
“ego stroked”
SO TRUE. Everybody becomes ‘Star Struck’ when they get around these whackos and DO whatever they tell them to do.
Okay, I was actally almost finished the video when I read your response, and after watching the video and reading the article, I’m certainly glad that this Kippax character did finally get busted.
Here is my concern, though…TEAM is much more slick than BIM – BIM doesn’t seem to be as organised as TEAM is, and TEAM actually retails copyrighted products on its websites, and work with companies like Monavie. The major big thing is, with tangeble products you actually hold in your hands they’re less likely to get busted. I’m afraid only a class-action suit will work at this point, if anything at all. I hate to put a damper on everyone, and I don’t mean to, but we’re really up against something only G-d Himself can knock down. We need more people to stand up and write to these shows like Marketplace, and to sites like Rick Ross.
There’s an old Jewish saying, that says “Despise not small beginnings”. I would like to hold on to that, and I really do believe in it. EVERYTHING starts off small. But things DO grow.
I’m certainly going to pray about everything, I do have faith in G-d. I am going to work on putting up a blog post this week as well telling my story (on my site, then I’ll ask Amthrax about how to share it.) He can decide what’s the next route anyway.
But keep in mind that TEAM is ILLEGAL in the UK in dealings with Amway, that is a start, right?
I remember them guys talking about that once…I was at a Major in New Brunswick, I think. Something about the woodward/brady duo purchasing an island for fifty million and selling lots to TEAM big guys for a million each? I doubt it’ll ever happen, lol.
Thanks for the laugh! that photo was great and YES I can’t wait for it to unravel.
I get all of your points Izzy and they are valid. TEAM and MV are going to be a little more difficult to nail down.
Vogel, wasn’t Monavie found to be illegal in Germany?
Aren’t they already turning in on each other? I mean each hotshot who does leave gets badmouthed and the like…it would be nice if the Orrin Woodward and Chris Brady romance disintegrates 😉
And when it does all come crashing down, the pins will be talking about how they just knew it was coming and how they all had grave concerns about the way in which the business was being operated but no one would listen…ROFL! The fingerpointing will be hysterical to watch. Then these demented pied pipers will start trying to lead people into the next scam — “get in on the ground floor…can’t miss opportunity…gonna be bigger than Microsoft!!!”
Pfffffttttttt!
A major point that I forgot to share in the registration and ranking people.
When in Quixtar their was already an established (line of sponsorship).
WE PROMISHED people for years to “hold their spot” meaning that you would get in and even if they didn’t build it those who were put in after them,would be apart of their team and would get paid for that volume and paid more if they ever decided to build it.
You could call this the integrity of the line of sponsorship.
So by our promises that we were going to keep no matter what when we left that business and transfered those people into MV, this is where Orrin and George saw $$$ for themselves and dictated where and how they were put in. Totally ignoring the orignial promises and the integrity of all these people groups.
Example, I will call this couple J&S originally sponsored R &R and had a downline of very close to 7000 people; but when their upline registered them in MV they lost all 7000 people because they were put in a totally different binary leg closer to the bottom no less!
So in other words they lost their ENTIRE TEAM of 7000,by these Greedy, Corrupted, Thieves!!!!!!!!!!
This example is True example that happened to someone on our team and it is Not isolated by any means!
GREED- THE LOVE OF MONEY IS THE ROOT OF ALL EVIL!
What will even blow your mind more is there are a WHOLE lot of leaders that know of many, many of these cases because they were the ones following the marching orders, and they TRY AND JUSTIFY IT, by “Oh it was really chaotic at that time” “People were under a lot of pressure,” NO SH**T because O & G needed it and were the ones pressuring to get thousands in a week!!! So Guzzardo’s could go Hawaiian Blue $$$$, and Orrin could go Presidential Black $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$!
So how would you like to loose 7000 people on your team for oh say maybe 20 people, sound fair enough!
Postal anyone?!!!!!
So those that believe their LIES of they “aren’t in it for the $$$” they are only in it for the cause because “they don’t need the money”…. Those people believing this, can’t have a pulse nor are they breathing!!!!!
Izzy, it called a “bromance”. I am not sure which one is more dangerous but it would be nice to see them eating each others tails.
This is the best entertainment I’ve had in awhile!!!!!!!!
Thanks You All!
webelieved – Funny you bring that up about the training tools. Amway (even though I don’t like their business model) has cleaned up their act way more than monaVie. It is comical that Orrin and Chris would leave Amway for MonaVie and all the reports people talking about the ‘Head Hunters Fees’ and cash they received up front obviously explains why they chose MonaVie. They were not looking out for the best interest of their Team and IBOs, rather they were looking out for their bottom line and where they could make the most money. This is why they will FAIL in the end.
Amway has been supposedly cleaning up the tool companies and changing things to make sure they are more legit in the MLM world. MonaVie on the other hand is way worse than amway and clearly a pyramid. The accusations that Team brought up against Amway in their lawsuit against them in California could easily be applies to MonaVie!!! Cracks me up that people do not see this. DO YOUR RESEARCH people before you FOLLOW blindly!!!
Izzy, it called a “bromance”. I am not sure which one is more dangerous but it would be nice to see them eating each others tails.
haha, I am sure they already do!!!
SPEAK YOUR TRUTH –
I am getting outraged learning about all of the deception and immoral behavior going on here all in the name of culture, changing lives, leading people to Christ and making a difference.
They are making a difference….a NEGATIVE difference in thousands of peoples lives and it needs to stop!!!
Team Island, OH yes, the research done on this and free videos that our upline did, even showed them at a seminar, do you all remember?
Why weren’t they out STP, them nose pickers!
Goin to A Million People, yep a Million suing ya!
They are kissing each others tails for sure!
Will
Orrin was privy to this information and if the truth was know it would be his #1 reason for leaving because he knew they would be taking out the outside tool companies!
That humble man that isn’t in it for the money!
webelieved – what are some of the stories you heard they were saying about why you quit the business?
Do you also recall any lies they made up about other leaders like Haugen, Florence, Dickie, Granger, Morgans, Goetschel, Crawford, T. Cullen, D. Abraham etc.?
Who else am I missing here? There have been a ton of leaders that quit over the past few years other than the ones I mentioned above?
Omgosh, this is hiliarious, You guys are making me bust a gut, that’s it,
I’m calling the makers of Believe, they have to make a Believe 2!
They need look no futher than this site right here, maybe we could ALL GET RICH, I”ll START CONTACTING RIGHT NOW!!!
http://www.believethemovie.com/trailers.php
HA and AMTHRAX TOO, he will become famous!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Revisiting this comment as I think it is important to point out…
We all remember Orrin getting on stage talking about how he makes loads of money from Team and then he can invest that money in other businesses. He TOUTS himself as being a business GURU (go figure) and that you should take his advice on investments, finances and other business ventures.
I do not think this guy is that SMART or knows what to do with his money. I think he is a HORRIBLE business man.
I am would like ONE PERSON to PROVE me wrong by showing me an outside business that ORRIN has been successful at!!??? Can anyone show me???
WOW, 436 total comments and today alone I think there were around 100 or so. This is heating up and the FACTS are starting to come out on Orrin Woodwards SCAM. I cannot wait for this corruption to end.
It has been a pleasure sharing with you all, hearing your stories (as emotional and painful as they are), I know we will all benefit from moving forward in a POSITIVE direction now and the healing process is now underway! Thanks for being there for me and I want you to know that I am praying for everyone on this blog and even those who do not know what is happening to them. I am praying that God will open their eyes, free their minds and show them the light!!!
Hear hear! Well said Will.
webelieved – This video is hysterical! There are so many professionals that signed up in MonaVie Team (that were very successful in their private lives and had credibility before joining this business) and THEY COULD NOT EVEN MAKE IT WORK. I am talking lawyers, doctors, business owners and yes, even consultants. 😉 I am sure you know who all these people are, but they have either quit or their businesses are hanging on by a thread due to lack of results.
Ryan – If these professionals from many walks of life CANT MAKE THIS BUSINESS WORK…then I am sorry my friend, but YOU with your knappy hair will NEVER make this work. Keep on dreaming my friend. Better yet, you would be better off to GET RID OF THE TEAM DREAM and start Dreaming about something that was realistic and that you could actually attain in your life.
Great questions-webelieved.
Hmmm……so many questions, so many secrets..
He that has eyes to see and ears to hear may convince himself that no mortal can keep a secret. If his lips are silent, he chatters with his fingertips; betrayal oozes out of him at every pore.-Sigmund Freud
Everything secret degenerates, even the administration of justice; nothing is safe that does not show how it can bear discussion and publicity-Lord John Emerich Edward Dalberg
Way to go Webelieved & Will
What the hell was that?
Now that I have picked myself back up off the floor, get some lessons already!
Ah Yes, the Crosslining!
I am with Will on this one!
This is the most obvious way for them to keep the curtain closed! This is what causes the paranoia in the Policy Counsel.
But too bad the wizards are being revealed, the curtain is being ripped down. I could go on forever but there is one Policy Counsel that is really anal about this, but yet he spouted from stage “How he wishes he could tell you all he knows about Don F. & Guzzardo’s group”Who are all cross-line to him!
~And these things just blow right over most people because they are sitting in a seminar, getting intoxicated with the indoctrination!
The double standards are sickening and they should all be throw in the cage of the WFC fighters so these guys have something to practice on!
Izzy-yes this is a cardinal rule that is punishable by what-ever-it takes rule book, and is reverenced in all teams!
It was awhile after they stole our profit-sharing, I had spoken to a Big Leader that they too had their teams and personals taken in their group. This person told me my upline had called to invite to lunch, (which never happened) then later realized my upline was trying to see if I had talked to this person!
Paranoia at its finest!
The Birthday Party is the most twisted story I’ve heard yet.
Will-
Yes and just think all those that haven’t spoken on their individual abuses, hopefully they can read here and not feel alone and afraid to tell the truth. I don’t know if people really understand the depth of destruction this has caused people like us for years and know for me this is just the beginning.
It is freeing to have a voice somewhere it is safe and people have your backside because for too long no-one could point out these abuses, as hard as we tried. We stood up for the people on our teams that were downright being abused, they refused to hold people accountable and take responsibility, and to think Orrin called my spouse a coward! I can’t even call Orrin a man, my spouse showed more courage than he could even conjure up in his wildest dreams!
He is the biggest coward I have ever met, not to mention all the other lack of character traits that I could say with confidence, judging by our experience.
Eventually, you just have to leave rather than try and be their consciences, because you know it will only be throw at you with, “Focus on what you can control” then for us when we would bring up injustice or wrong doings they would go on stage and edify the person (our upline) with white-hot edification just to “show you”, you can’t bring those things up about your upline, you are just suppose to submit! It is truly disgusting, and I agree with you, I wonder if they are taking notes and touting from stage on how many lives they have destroyed, instead of reading the cards and accolades from those (with tears) on how “They” changed people’s lives for the better.” They cannot and will not deny my experience and the abuses I know that happened!
You can just hear their side of the story, can’t you?
Sooner or later justice will be served, and I bet their jacked, and not on the juice but about all their dirty little secrets and lies.
Dorothy
Thanks for sharing; the truth you speak is a great reminder to how we need to live our lives.
I will forgive and help those ( This is my nature and the way I believe God himself made me, I love and have tremendous compassion for people) too when they remove themselves from the lie they are blindly living (at least some), others know full well and clearly know what they are doing.
Not that I can’t forgive them but I believe when I completely do, it will be more for me, and it will be by God’s grace.
I have prayed many times for this but it cannot come to completion for me by suppressing more of what caused the pain in the first place.
I also believe the first step in forgiveness has to be “self-forgiveness” and most of us here are just scratching that surface.
Thank you and I hope I haven’t been offensive to you.
Vogel, with all due respect to your accomplishments in regards to the scam that is Mona vie, I have a dissenting opinion in regards to the spirit of some of this post.
I don’t know that we want to salute those that toil away for modest income or keep their materialism in check. I don’t see the virtue in such self sacrifice. As presented it reeks of martyrdom. To resign oneself to less then the care to acheive is a sin in my opinion. A waste of potential that hurts the martyr as well as the society that would benefit from their increased production.
To me, the repulsion comes not from the ideology of positive mental attitude, dedication, and perseverance which I have found in my experience to be common drivers in the attainment of success, but the application of such inside of a scam where massive failures are predetermined. I don’t think we want to throw the baby out with the bathwater. Just because these principles are being preached inside a scam does not make the principles themselves scams.
It saddens me to think of all those, who after being burnt by MLM, will discount self improvement as just part of the scam. Self improvement is a noble pursuit, and there are many paths. As you stated, you chose self improvement through education. While I personally very much of your mindset regarding money, I have no problem with those that are motivated by materialism. I have no more right to damn this motivation as shallow as anybody else would to damn me for my motivations.
@Jim – Good comment.
On this site, I’ve tried — perhaps with varying degrees of success — to make this distinction. Much of the self-improvement principles taught from stage are not exclusive to TEAM, R3Global, WWDB. Rather, they are universal principles which are good to learn and strive for. Where I have a problem is when the Systems and Leaders state that one can only find success by following their System exclusive of anything else.
Really Jim? If you don’t want to salute or show respect to the middle-class worker, which is who we’re talking about here, then what do you suggest as an alternative, simply ignoring them? Crapping on them like the MLMers do constantly? I’m assuming that you know enough about these MLMs to realize that they constantly deride the notion of a 9 to 5 job. They even go so far as to say that MLM is superior to the average non-MLM job (absurd given that non-MLMs, unlike MLMs, are bound by minimum wage laws).
MLMs prey upon greed; they feed it endlessly, and they do it with scorn and derision for everyone that is outside the CULT, including the hard working folk that make up the bulk of America’s work force.
It’s sad that you “don’t see the virtue in this kind of self sacrifice”, and it’s odd that you infer from what I wrote that I don’t support the notion of self improvement; I merely do not support MLM as a source for providing or teaching about self improvement. Quite the contrary in fact; MLM is more about self abasement.
I see blue- and white-collar workers continually making great sacrifices to ensure that their children have a better future. They often toil so that their kids can go to university and achieve a better life. How could any compassionate person not salute and respect that?
Positive attitude is great; and also greatly overrated. Having a marketable skill set is far more important. MLM preaches the attitude but provides none of the skills. What could be a more empty promise than that which MLM offers? You can smile and be positive until you’re blue in the face, but if you’re unqualified and uneducated, I’m sure not going to hire you and neither will most employers, unless the job consists of beaming and grinning like a fool without doing any actual work (and that’s a hard job to come by, outside of politics especially).
Jim said: “To resign oneself to less then the care to acheive is a sin in my opinion. A waste of potential that hurts the martyr as well as the society that would benefit from their increased production.”
You seem to be confusing materialism with goal-directed behavior. Almost everyone works with a goal in mind; but the goal doesn’t have to be merely the acquisition of material things. It’s a dangerous to pin the welfare of a society solely to the materialism of its citizens. It’s also fallacious to equate achievment with materialism. One can eschew the latter without the former.
Jim said: “It saddens me to think of all those, who after being burnt by MLM, will discount self improvement as just part of the scam. Self improvement is a noble pursuit, and there are many paths.”
How odd that you’re saddened by this apparent strawman. Why would burnt MLMers discount self-improvement? That makes no sense at all. Just assume that they’ll seek self improvement from legitimate sources — i.e., those apart from the upside-down world of MLM. If anything I would imagine that they would be more likely to undertake self-improvement, given that they no longer have to squander their time and resources on the empty promises of soul-sucking MLMs.
Jim said: “I have no problem with those that are motivated by materialism. I have no more right to damn this motivation as shallow as anybody else would to damn me for my motivations.”
You’re ignoring the fundamental hypocrisy underlying the materialism promoted by MLMs; namely, that they use Jesus as part of their indoctrination strategy, and yet Jesus represents the antithesis of materialism. The contradiction is unmistakably obvious.
@Amthrax, thanks! That was the point of the post. Most of what is being taught in all these motivational MLMs are universal principles that have been around for many decades, and in my opinion they aren’t even being taught well. It is too bad that the way the average person finds out about them is through these confidence men. (that’s an interesting term isn’t it? Great title for a movie about MLM guru’s)
Will:
Whats the storey with the following Team Leaders quitting???
Granger- Whats his first name?
John & Melanie Morgan?
T. Cullen – Is this Tom Cullen?
D. Abraham – Is this Matt Abraham’s brother?
Will
I am going to start blogging tomorrow.
Hopefully we can take the next step, I have some cult info, I want to share. Hope you visit, it is still a work in progress, if you only knew how ignorant I am on this computer stuff you would understand, I had to have help, well all of it done for me!
I appreciate your prayers and kind words and ditto to them all! It sounds like your leaving and I hear you loud and clear!
What Amthrax, Vogel, Humiliated, Izzy, Aurora, Juicescam,(hope I didn’t forge ANYONE) and all our friends in “recovery”,LOL,
All that they have done for us is a miracle, they accepted us with open arms,gave us a safe place to speak out, gave us valuable information, unselfishly served, and even had our backs when the wolves showed up to try and silence the truth!
We will be eternally grateful for this and hopefully they will somehow receive the reward by knowing that they played a huge part in some of the first steps to our healing! They truly have been amazing! I know they will keep up the good fight and we will continue to come on here and visit.
We will Pay-It-Forward!
I too will continue to pray for them and all those on here and the for the rest that will come!
You all have my an angels to me!
Thank You All!
Will I have no idea what happened but don’t go to that blog, LOL!
I will post the right one I hope soon have to check with my technician,HOLY CRAP! I thought that was it, SEE I told you!
Unknown
Jeff Granger – gone
John & Melanie Morgan-gone
Tom Cullen-gone
D. Abraham-doubtful but not sure
Obviously, they all quit because they realized the business was a sham and weren’t making any money.
There were also LIES and SLANDEROUS statements made about all of them after they quit. I hope that they decide to get on here and post (anonymously about their stories), because I am sure that they would have some juicy information on the inner circles of the leadership and the immoral, shady practices that take place.
Jeff Granger was upline to Matt Abraham and supposedly there was a big riff between Jeff and Orrin as Jeff had his team taken from him and re-positioned after the merger with MonaVie. His team was basically re-alligned so that Orrin would stand to PROFIT the most from the new LOS, and Jeff LOST OUT on YEARS of business building efforts and relationship building that he invested building his team. Of course, all the rumors from Orrin and his cronies made Jeff out to be dis-gruntled, angry at the monavie change and mad because his outside legs at the time were not growing. However they spinned it, they tried making him look bad. I am sure that a ton of the other leaders on here like Speak Your Truth, Webelieved, iQuit and Fly on the Wall could all add to this from the lies they heard. I truly hope that Jeff and his family are ok and that they can heal after all the pain that Orrin caused him and his family and business. If Jeff ever posted on here it would definitely expose some dirty secrets on Orrin as I am sure there is alot more to the story outside of what I have heard and the basic rumors that went around team. Jeff was a Triple 100 on the Team, so he was one of the larger level kingpins at the time. So, for him to get up and leave just shows that the business was going backwards, and in his case it was shrinking faster since it looks like it was stolen from him.
Dan Abraham is Matts brother and he quit the business a few years back and moved somewhere to open up a new practice as he is aDermatologist. At the time it was a quiet exit and not many people talked about it. However, rumors still started to go around when people asked where he went and of course he was slandered and called a traitor and a little girl who couldn’t build his business. This obviously struck me as alarming that they could speak this way about him, being that he was a big leader on stage, well liked, always edified and friends with Orrin and the other leaders, but as soon as he decided to take his family in a different direction, they threw him under the bus in a heart beat. I always wondered if Matt Abraham knew what they were saying about his brother, because Matt is still involved in the business to this day. Dan leaving again shows you that another big level leaders quit because the opportunity is not near as good as they make it out to be.
Tom Cullen and John Morgan were Round Table Members as well (so was Dan Abraham). So to have 4 RT guys quit like Granger, Abraham, Cullen and Morgan, it just proves our point on this blog that the whole thing is slowly falling down.
I do not know the entire stories with Morgans and Cullen on their personal decisions for leaving. But I did hear that they were both pretty upset due to immoral issues with the leadership of team and surprise surprise, Orrin and gang SLANDERED them as well to justify why they weren’t around anymore, because they wouldnt want people to question the business on whether or not the opportunity was as good as they make it out to be, right??!!??
What other big leaders quit and can anyone else confirm the reasons why these leaders left? Plus, I am positive you have all heard similar slanderous statements about people when they defect…what have you heard?
Oh Boy Will
You have opened Pandora’s Box now!
I’m pretty sure I cannot post right now because every word would have to be CAPTIALIAZTION!
You can add to the RT list the Peters, and anyone else?
Yes but maybe will share that later!
I agree, strength in numbers. If everyone comes out now and at the same time the momentum will be on our side!
I agree with the divine intervention.
I found this site from a site quixtarisacult, which I am sad to see is gone.
I loved this guys writing style and points.
Yes, Will this is true but I don’t know if Amthrax could handle such a bunch of rebellious, stand up for the truth; survivors!
I am not sure how he feels about all of us.
Oh yeah…Greg Rau too!
Updated List – RT Members:
Jeff Granger
Raquel Peters
Dan Abraham
Greg Rau
Tom Cullen
John & Melanie Morgan
PC Members:
Randy & Val Haugen – PC
Billy & Peggy – PC
Mark Crawford – PC
Lance Smith – PC
Chuck Goetschel – PC
I know we are missing a dozen more couples (RT) that slowly dissolved over the years. Maybe there are alot more that tried leaving quietly for fear of the slandering that takes place, or maybe there are others still hanging on by a thread and wanting to quit, but just not knowing how to tell their teams that they want out?
Can one of the Ex-TEAM commenters take a look at the TEAM Calendar and tell us which field leaders are on the up and up (or down and down)?
http://www.the-team.biz/TeamLogin/TeamHome/Calendar/tabid/60/Default.aspx
Looking back on the past few years, there appears to be less meetings overall throughout the week. How many people are attending these weekly opens and weekend seminars?
ha, there’s another DAGGER!
Updated List – RT Members:
Jeff Granger
Raquel Peters
Dan Abraham
Greg Rau
Tom Cullen
John & Melanie Morgan
Pat Edwards
PC Members:
Randy & Val Haugen – PC
Billy & Peggy – PC
Mark Crawford – PC
Lance Smith – PC
Chuck Goetschel – PC
Team Office:
CEO – Bob Dickie
Chief Legal Counsel – Kevin Thompson
Bob Cassidy (another executive at the office)
Orrin’s Mentor/Pastor:
Pastor Dickie (man, Orrin has got to know that he is a BUM when his own Pastor wants nothing to do with him and his business either.)
I have heard about the Edward too.
And of course there is all of us on this blog.
I wonder how big this list is going to get? 😉
Will you have a good list started.
I know leaders that weren’t round table but turbo 50 & 100.
But I am really am having a hard time with the last post still; that they would talk about our friends like that.
I do want to mention something else that I believe is VERY important right now.
The Team started as Team of Destiny with Amway, then Team with Quixtar (whatever his reason was can’t remember right now because it wasn’t the real truth)
But the real reason is, Orrin says: “it’s not the negative lies that hurt you, it is the negative truth,” this is why they changed the name.
So when the “Team of Destiny” was searched out it wouldn’t be attached to the “negative.”
Heard he sued, Scott Larsen but we were in at that time and know nothing about that, just vaguely remember someone brought it up.
It is no secret that Orrin doesn’t like critics.
What would you call us since we weren’t critics and now calling us critics, just doesn’t seem to cut it? Hmm….
So get ready I am sure after ALL the truth that has been shed here and Juicescam’s; the curtain’s ripped wide open.
I would guess A NEW NAME CHANGE IS IN STORE.
What do you think?
How long do you think it will take, ha?
How long do they really think they can run and hide?
The only one’s who believe that they are hidden is themselves, EVERYBODY ELSE, knows the Truth!
It’s funny…I look at this list of HUGE LEADERS that were in the business at one time and THEY ALL LEFT, and what did we hear about them afterwards? LIES and SlANDER. WHY? Again, to protect Orrin’s business and keep people BELIEVING that it was THEM (the people who quit) that were at fault and not the business.
Really? So according to Orrin, we are to believe that ALL of these people are BAD? All these years, these leaders were LOSERS, TRAITORS, and had integrity issues and ORRIN (The Great Leader) did not recognize these character flaws with these people?
NO!
Orrin praised every single one of these leaders at some point on stage before. These were people that he edified on stage and called friends.
The ONE THING that all of these people have in COMMON is Orrin Woodward.
This should easily tell people that the PROBLEM is not with these people, the PROBLEM lies with ORRIN and his TOOL SCAM of a business.
i need a beer
Good point. My guess is something to do with their new 8 F’s and the L.I.F.E initiative. (Living Intentionally For Excellence)
Maybe they will do something like:
Life Team
Team Life
Life Leadership
Life Training
Life Training Team
haha, and yes they WILL RUN and WONT be able to hide!
@Vogel
My point was you shouldn’t resign yourself to “toiling” and just being glad to have a job. I would say there is nothing wrong with an honest days work for an honest days pay and a man can have pride in that. But who would aspire to toil away for modest wages? Is that something you would wish for your child? Or would you tell your child to be passionate about his endevours in life, regardless of monetary reward, to do his best and take pride in his accomplishments, to not settle, that through belief in himself and determination he can do amazing things. We are not lying to our children when we tell them such things and they don’t become lies just because one has attained a certain age or position. I would not encourage my child to toil away, keep his desires in check and be grateful to have a steady job, but to seek that which will give him happiness and satisfaction. If making money was his passion, that is fine by me. I can respect that passion for the game. Funny thing, when you have that passion in your life, often the money doesn’t matter and oddly enough thats when it seems to be easy. It’s not the money, it’s the passion and there is little satisfaction in toiling.
So I would not salute my own child for resiging himself to toiling for modest income keeping his desires in check and being glad to just have a job, would it make sense I should another mans? I find virtue in the desire to live life to the full. I find virtue in the man that takes responsibility for his life and is unrepentant. Saluting it in such a way lends a sense of martyrdom. Martyrdom is a very bad thing and I see too much of it, even pride in it.
I’m going way off topic with personal philosophy but it actually does tie back around in that as you read this, you mostly like thought I was trying to sound like an MLM motivational speaker. I’m sure their message is very similiar because it’s the same message that has impacted lives for decades. I was lucky enough to stumble across much of the self improvement and interpersonal relationship literature decades ago and it had a definite impact on my life. It upsets me to see something dear to me being perverted and used to bilk people. And yes, I feel sorry for those who were exposed to the idea that the mindset is everything, that will leave thinking they were stupid for believing in themselves.
webelieved – Orrin has a horrible name for search engine purposes, eh?
The John Smiths of the world would blend in really easily. But ORRIN has just been screwed and good for him. Serves him right after all that he has done.
You referring to smaller level profit sharers that were not RT or PC? It would take a while to recall all the people that VANISHED over the years. But I say we put our heads together, because the larger we make that list the better. It shows people that ORRIN is the one common denominator in all of the SO CALLED RELATIONSHIPS THAT WENT BAD. That list should WAKE PEOPLE UP!!!
I agree. There is so much that people do not know or that they WILL NOT BELIEVE. I remember when I was building the business people would bash the leaders that quit and they would bash these blogs as 95% garbage. They really do turn a blind eye to it, so hopefully they will see that with the increase in stories and truth that we are speaking will be enough to get their attention. That is my prayer at least. Alot of people are getting hurt.
Holy smokes, Will- You are white hot tonight, way to go!
Where do you, webelieved and I meet for that beer?
Chris Smith was RT right? He quit Team
So was Mike Barrett (I think he is out too, can anyone else verify?)
I havent heard anything specific on the Edwards recently. I was under the impression that they had left a while back as well. Were they RT Members?
ha, I agree. Amthrax needs to help us set it up!
Amthrax
Are you asking which one’s are growning?
This would be very difficult especially because we haven’t been with the team for going on 3 years.
So most of the speaker they have now with some exceptions, I would have some insight on, most of the rest weren’t even there when we were, at least not at any noticable level, and a lot of them are from all the other leaders that left like Randy H., Billy F., Mark Crawford, Lance Smith, and Chuck Goetschel, some of their bigger leaders stayed with the team.
I no longer have the source to the numbers at seminars or opens anymore.
Oh, this was all kinds of whackyness!
We could all go for days on this topic!
I recall having phone calling sessions with our teams where we were sitting on 15 applications of people that wanted to get in the business. The phone calling session would be on a Monday and we would tell people that we would put their application in at the end of the week on Saturday. That gave us all week to STP, STP, STP (Gosh I hate typing out this crap…bringing back painful memories, lol) and we would tell new people that if they get in they would get 15 applications (or IBOs) automatically put in their teams. Our upline coordinated and planned it this way. We would always question the ETHICS on this as we were basically putting people in the LOS ahead of people that may have seen the business and committed a week or two ahead of them. Everything about this business was sketchy and it bugs me that I did not clearly put everything together until I got out of the business. Once I quit it was so easy to see all of the flaws and terrible practices that they apply in Team.
Will
I know Chris Smith is but am not sure Mike Barrett.
Just for kicks
Remember this one:
“The first day Quixtar launched in 1999 we melted IBMs mainframes due to the amount of traffic and hits to the website.” —- Team Open Meeting Speakers, mentioned at every open across the country for 8 years straight.
Renee Oettinger is out as well, right?
Great point Will,
I know some more, Turbo 100’s if I’m remembering right,Rodmans & Brost.
Now I busting a gut!
You and I Quit, (wait til he comes on tomorrow!) catch me off guard and I can’t help but fall off my chair laughing! You are such a blessing!
Or how about…
“The US Dept. of Labor puts out this graph every year (referring to the 45 year plan)…”
This MAJOR point in the plan was covered as well at EVERY open by EVERY speaker over the 8-9 years of Quixtar Team open meetings (or more).
Guess what?
They do not put this graph out every year. It does not exist.
MUUUUOOOAAAHHHHHHMUUUOOOAAAHHHHhahahahahah
That was # 500 comment
OMG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
U.S. Dept, I can’t stop!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
My upline Diamond used to show the plan with the “world satelite directing some kind of distribution, BS”
Maybe he meant U.F.O. communications, it was such a line of BS!
Awesome!!
lol
Hey what’s Orrins lastest tweet?
I have seen some team monavie blogs out their promote LIFE TRAINING already. I would not be surprised if that is their name they go with because it is generic enough and would fit well with their strategy as Speak Your Truth pointed out.
yeah, those are always good for a laugh. lol
Where did you hear this? Last I saw on the TEAM calendar, she was still doing weekly opens.
I can’t wait to post some of the cult stuff but you guys have to come and face some reality, but keep us laughing.
Off that subject but what about how we used to “do our customer reporting” or pay our bonus’ out of our own checkbooks, in the Yager system? Did you have to do that?
No Renee is still in.
I have been out for a while and have not been on Teams site looking at opens, so I do not know for sure about Renee. I have friends that I speak with reg. that quit and also old friends that are still in the business. Though, they are starting to distance themselves from me as they still drink the juice and their uplines have warned them about my 95% behavior in loserville, usa
Oh yeah, reporting retail in order to get your Q bonus. Now that was shady too. I had people question the ethics of this policy directly to Orrin’s face at pv parties, calling sessions etc. and he always would spin his way out of it and justify the way people LIED when reporting by saying ‘Well, even though you do not sell the product to someone you are probably giving away 50 pv at least in SAMPLE products, so I just count that as RETAIL.’ What a bunch of crock.
Not sure on the Hemillas, how many profit sharers left with the Morgans?
Will
This is something we did not do.
We would get someone started, if they post dated a check then we used it til that date and would only offer them anyone unless we needed the that “Ace.” Man was it work trying to keep integrity for our own conscience but in the end we all know the real results! So sad.
We would make sure who ever we showed the plan to we would ask on what date or day they wanted their number by, it was still skechy but we did hold to what-ever integrity we could except we just had to be more creative, Yea- I am sure it was all illegal! How shameful!
Michael Scott and the Office on Pyramids…
Priceless
Yep Will same here on the shady answers , and what saved them with that was XS!
Yeah, I have not been around lately. I have heard rumors here and there that LOTS of people are struggling with making monavie work.
“UHHH….NO CRAP, we are in a recession and you are trying to sell a liter of Juicy Juice for the price of a tank of gas!”
Will my speakers aren’t working, DANG, have to watch, with sound tomorrow! The RED tie, Blue Suit, White Shirt, OMG! I think my spouse wore that one, LOL!
Remember that was only like 4 styles that were red in Q so everyone even had the same ones! OMG LOL
Talk with you tomorrow, THANKS FOR THE LAUGHS!
This was on some tv show quotes website (you can read the text instead for now) It is that good!! Did not want to make you wait for it…
Michael: So, Phil recruited me to sell these cards, and now I am recruiting you.
Oscar: Who is this guy again?
Michael: Don’t worry about Phil. He drives a corvette. He is doing just fine. Okay. Calling cards are… the wave of the future. These things sell themselves.
Ryan: Who uses calling cards anymore?
Michael: You know what? That’s a nice attitude, Ryan, I’m just helping you invest in your future, my friend.
Oscar: This sounds like a get rich quick scheme.
Michael: Yes! Thank you! You will get rich quick. We all will!
Toby: Didn’t you lose a lot of money on that other investment, the one from the email?
Michael: You know what, Toby? When the son of the deposed king of Nigeria emails you directly, asking for help, you help! His father ran the freaking country, okay? …Alright, so, raise your hand if you wanna get rich. [Jim and Dwight raise their hands] Alright.
Jim: No, um. How is this not a pyramid scheme?
Michael: Alright, let me explain. Again. [draws on board] Phil has recruited me and another guy. Now, we are getting three people each. The more people that get involved, the more who are investing, the more money we’re all going to make. It’s not a pyramid scheme, it is a… it’s not even a scheme per se, it’s… [Jim draws a triangle around Michael’s diagram] … I have to go make a call.
We did basically the same thing except when we squeezed we didn’t put “new” plans in front of “old” plans. We structured the leg in order of exposure. Yes this resulted in slower results but we felt the right way is the only way. This attitude applied across the whole gambit of the system resulted in slower growth and less volume long term. We knew it but at least we could feel better about it. This of course caused us and our group (who were taught to do the same by the way) to be viewed as slow and unable to ever be big anytime soon. Pressure to perform and get results can cause you to lose your integrity if you let it. At least we can look back on this little kernel and feel satisfied we didn’t give in. Unfortunately we unknowingly (at the time we were doing it anyway. Now we know better!) caved on other points in our pursuit of the dream. On those we feel remorse for sure. Hindsight is always 20/20.
A BIG THANK YOU TO ALL OF YOU FOR SEVERAL LAUGHS THIS MORNING!!! I’m at work waiting for a truck to finish unloading and then I’ll do something. In the meantime I’m laughing, remembering, and laughing some more. I will enjoy doing my 95% work getting paid a 95% rate. At least I know I’ll get the check!! (not someone else) Oh there go the Teambots! He gave up on his dream. He screwed his family. He’s a loser. Not enough system. They stole his dream. BARF PUKE ERP RETCH HORK VVVOMMMMIIIITTTTTT!!!!!! HERES THE TRUTH… THE LONG TIME PUNCHES KNOCKED THE WIND OUTTA ME. YEARS OF EFFORT, SLOW RESULTS. AND WHEN YOU MAKE IT YOU ARE WELCOMED BY HAVING ALL YOUR EFFORT CONFISCATED. No thanks. I like being broke. (which we aren’t but the system says we are) ONWARD TO BROKENESS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Thank you for your beautiful words Speak…they really touched me and I am so glad that I could contribute, in some small way, to your healing.
I must say, it is difficult to wrap my head around the fact that Orrin used religion as in integral part of his massive manipulation of everyone, where you are to love every one and everything, yet he taught you to hate more then he taught you to love. Hate those that leave, hate those that don’t produce, hate those on the outside that don’t believe, but worst of all, he taught you to hate yourselves.
What I see is that when people are in “favor” with Orrin and strategically placed to make money, they turn a blind eye to the corrupt business practices because of the money and he somehow convinces you that it is all right.. In this way he “has you”, because now you are PART of the con . When it is gone, it is hard to tell him what he is doing is wrong because he knows that you know that you knowingly participated in it.
Seriously people, that man is a sociopath who manipulates everyone in his path. He doesn’t need to repent, he needs to be in a mental institution somewhere where he can’t harm anyone else. And, know this, none of this is your fault. This screams of Cult leader and there are so many layers to this, your faith in God, your want for a better life for your family, your incredible motivation to “improve” yourselves through all of this “training, he used ALL of that against you. Truly diabolical.
Will. I was reading your comment and this is what I “saw” just before your comment about needing a beer’
“This should easily tell people that the PROBLEM is not with these people, the PROBLEM lies with ORRIN and his TOOL ”
I started laughing to myself, then wondered if that really isn’t the essence of this man’s problems? Just sayin’…perhaps the need to feel powerful and big is because he lacks in…ahem…other areas? It would explain a lot….
With due respect to everyone commenting here, there’s been a lot more noise to signal lately. Many of the responses are more IM-like responses than comments. For a new reader coming here, they might be confused or overwhelmed with the amount of content to read. I try to keep the comments on topic as much as possible and tone down perhaps the excessive chatter.
If any of you want to write a guest post about a particular topic, please send me an email. I like what Anna Banana’s blog is doing (http://marriedtoanambot.blogspot.com/) where she talks about one topic that irked her (she was in Amway). Instead of posting it this blog where it might get hidden by all of the other comments, I’d be happy to post in on this site.
There’s plenty of TEAM-related content on my TEAM/Orrin Woodward tags page. Don’t be afraid to comment there too!
@Jim – there’s no martyrdom here, we all have different abilities and lifestyles. I myself am against materialism and want to
Oops my keyboard is acting up and I have to start over again. Anyway I wanted to say that I prefer to live close to Mother Nature and not use so much of the earth’s resources.l think it’s prudent to not waste our money on all kinds of stuff while we can be focused on other things like helping the poor, families, whatever. lt is a good idea to look out for our Children’s education and not deny them like TEAM does. And Jim, a (ot of us are hurting and angry, that’s why you’ve seeing us reacting the way we do. We need to vent. Let us vent and heal, and let us develop our passion in helping others leave TEAM. OK???
“I hope he doesn’t choke on it when his conscience comes back!!!!!” LMAO!!! This comment made me laugh so hard!!!! I’m pretty sure his conscience is doing just fine xD and… you’re the one that hopes other people choke on pineapple boats in hawaii, i highly doubt your diamond does.. HAH you note conscience and then you state a remark that should effect yours xD omg so hilarious!!
Once again, Satisfying your emotions by acts of selfish word play is NOT healing. lmao ^^; you guys are only going to get worse and worse if you keep this up. Sorry mate, just the truth.
and to keep this one topic, TEAM ROCKS! that’s my ex-team experience. i say ex because i no longer participate and haven’t for quite some time. Haha and all of you can make fun of my video that i wrote over a year ago as my first song. I don’t get people in with that song you guys are just hilarious. But yeah go ahead and bash it, bash it directly on the youtube page if ya want. lol Because here’s the thing, nothing you can say is going to stop me from winning, and it doesn’t effect how i feel or others feel about it.
Lets see you do a better FIRST song… eh? all by your self, just like me. that’d be impressive =)
You guys talk about conscience but clearly you are deaf to it with the amount of time you spend each day attacking other people.
I recently (within the last 72 hrs) spoke with a close friend who assured me that this blog and this thread in particular is being noticed and is obviously having an effect. OW knows we are all talking.
I do know that Michael Barrett is now a Logistics Officer in the US Army these days. I don’t know if he is still with TEAM.
As far as I know, these calendars are area-specific, I would like to find out if LeeAnn and Alex Nickerson are still in TEAM.
Hi guys, lzzy hear, lost use of my keyboard for typing, but wanted to let you know I’m reading, getting new laptop from Dell.
Ryan u r seriously NOT LISTENING to ANYTHING to what we’re saying! I though you would be reasonable and consider for yourself the issues we are facing. *sigh*
I’d like to know if LeeAnn & Alex Nickerson are still on TEAM? She was Ruby this time last yr & had a CD released With TEAM. Ididn’t .listen to it, though. They’re from the Halifax area, I think.
Of course he knows about it he googles himself all day long. Can you say narcissistic???
A person with narcissistic personality disorder may:
•React to criticism with rage, shame, or humiliation
•Take advantage of other people to achieve his or her own goals
•Have excessive feelings of self-importance
•Exaggerate achievements and talents
•Be preoccupied with fantasies of success, power, beauty, intelligence, or ideal love
•Have unreasonable expectations of favorable treatment
•Need constant attention and admiration
•Disregard the feelings of others, and have little ability to feel empathy
•Have obsessive self-interest
•Pursue mainly selfish goals
*** Will also google him or herself on an hourly basis.
Oh dear, should we connect privately or something?
For me, I need to feel I am not alone, what we went thru Was traumatic, &we can’t keep it all inside. I’m also go to my Dr for counsoling referral, but l also need to be around ppl that understand as well.
😦
Does anyone know the name/location of the church in Michigan where Pastor Dickie is the Senior Pastor? Also, did the church survive all of this chaos? Its so sad when things like this effect a church but when you get greedy people who are in the pocket of the pastor its a recipe for disaster! I’d be interested in hearing from ex-TEAMsters from that church. How is it doing? Also, in the earlt days the CEO was a guy named Rob Halstrand. Anyone remember him? What is he up to? He was basically a “yes” man or “TEAMbot” for Orrin. P.S. Hey Orrin!!! LOL!!!
Believed- I’ve been thinking about your question. I’m only aware of one other name aside from the rest that have been mentioned already. I know that Pat and Lisa Semple quit too. They were PF but not RT I believe. I don’t know for sure of any others. Actually I have a list of names that I’m curious about and I don’t waste my time on the Team website so…
What about: Wayne and Leanna Kircher
Kirk and Cassie Birtles
Mark and Anna Huber
Joe and Jane McGuire
Ed and Lynette Zentner
Whats up with these folks?
One Time Fly
No doubt but why don’t they just do what Orrin taught us all?
Why don’t they just go build the buisness and prove their results instead like he says, and not pay any attention or worry about one little blog that people are venting years of frustation and voicing their oppinons and experiences.
This is the very reason why people want to share their experiences and stories, just like we did on the Team.
He himself tells others to ignore this, then why don’t they just listen to him. Really why would any of the Team come on here? By them coming on here, does this build their business? What would be their motive and purpose for this?
It makes no sense if they really believe what they say. This really shouldn’t have any impact on them according to the one’s that come on here and say it really doesn’t matter what is said. Those people believe we are just negative.
So I get it; we don’t live in a free speech country and are Not suppose to tell any truth about our experiences to anyone!
They can take our friends and money but they will not take our VOICES, DIGNITY OR OUR FREEDOM, never ever again!
So I would think, that just maybe, if people weren’t not promised things that they did not keep, and messed with people’s business and shouldn’t slander us as Will stated, then their really wouldn’t be anything to talk about.
Then we could promote them as they themselves do!
So just some words, remove our experiences and we will be glad to use our “How to Win Friends;” techniques toward all them loving, Godly, intelligent, Honest, Humble, Guru’s!
Please give us something great to talk about! We would be “Happy” to speak from our Postive Attitudes!
BTW I am feeling very vulnerable knowing that we’re being watched. Makes methink all kinds of crazy things…argh…
I don’t know, I’m really upset right now.
Izzy We are still here for you.
Way to go team deception!
Orrinsux Berean Baptist Church
Gotta go will be back
IGNORE-IGNORE!
How did that go?… I’m scaywd…
If it were me, I would try to keep the comments on-topic and somewhat substantive. I’m not about to start moderating comments left and right. Know that it is hard to follow the conversation when there are so many new comments in the span of a day. Imagine what someone coming to the site after a few days will have to wade through.
I don’t have control over this blog’s theme, so there isn’t a way to number the posts as of yet.
@ Webelieved. Thank you for the enccouragement from the Scriptures, I know G-D is in C0ntrol, & l can only pray for wisdom & guidance.
Sorry for messy typing, using an old tablet to “type” should get new laptop March 15th. But I must say something publicly – and that is We have a rightfo speak our minds, and to seek peace within ourselves. Woodward can’t take away this fundamental right.
Rest assured, Orrin an TEAM have far more reason to fear you all than vice versa.
Team is incredible. It has changed my view on life for the better, gotten me going and doing something more with my life, helped repair and create far better relationships, helped my friends find hope again, helped my friends financially, helped my friends physically, helped monavie with helping kids in Brazil, helped me to create my finances making a living doing what i love, helped me see a bigger picture in life, helped me help others with their relationships, helped motivate tons of people to do something greater with their lives, helped me and thousands learn to believe in them selves. NO: team is not responsible for all of my wisdom or gain in life, but it has helped tremendously.
…
Editor’s Note: Read the rest of Ryan’s comment here. Ryan has his own little corner on this web site, so please respond to him there instead of here.
Izzy
Please do not Fear and have faith!
If you tell the truth, there is absolutely nothing to be afraid of.
Webelieve- Great verse, that is a Promise!
Vogel-
I agree but isn’t it sad that they could have this kind of stronghold on other people’s minds. These are mere men.
One Time Fly – GIVE US ALL THE DIRTY SECRETS ON ORRIN!! 😉
Ladies and Gents – We are in for one interesting night!!
Orrinsux. I go to that church and amthrax has my email and he is ok to give it to you and I will answer your questions to the best of my ability.
More importantly is what orrin is up to now at his new church since the old one found out about his scam.
http://crosschurch.net/
Steve Camp and his church is Orrin’s next set of victims. He is a piece of work that is for sure. I know that Steve Camp has been contacted about Orrin via phone and email but who knows if has done any good. Orrin Woodward will also be up here in lansing MI speaking at some leadership pep rally March 12th….. Who’s in? We could all go together!!!
Steve Camp? Is this the Christian musician, or is this someone totally different?
Ryan, your awesome. Dumb but awesome.
How low were you in life that you needed a $45.00 juice to get you going in life? Was it the juice itself or the promise of having a big boat someday? You are making it sound like your life was headed to an end UNTIL one day the super fruit juice that doesn’t do anyhting,other than cost $200.00 a month, came into your life to save the day. Come on Ryan your better than this right?????
You are not making money and you know it. http://www.juicescam.com/its-not-a-matter-of-effort-its-a-mathematical-certainty/
Its also not helping you or your friends physically. You want to get healthy? Eat and apple and exercise.
http://www.juicescam.com/monavie-vs-an-apple/
Dont get us started on the More project… Its another scam within a scam thats within a major scam.
http://www.juicescam.com/the-more-project-is-misusing-funds/
Ryan says “helped me help others with their relationships, helped motivate tons of people to do something greater with their lives, helped me and thousands learn to believe in them selves”
What? How is going broke, not getting healthy, and having a garage full of wine bottles filled with nasty juice helping people? You my friend are part of the bigger picture of scamming innocent people to better yourself and TEAM has helped you become that person. Now that’s a leadership revolution!!!
Steve Camp was a Christian musician in the late 80’s and 90’s and today there is Jeremy Camp (no relation).
Thanks Amthrax =) Hahaha awesome.
No, it’s not Claude because I know Claude and he and Lana met right out of high school and got married very early. They’ve actually been together all through their days of Amway and Quixtar and now Monavie.
I’m guessing the other PC is Bill Lewis – he’s “dark” skinned. 🙂 He has quite the story and he and his wife Jackie met when Bill was already a diamond in Amway and they hooked up and got married. I believe she already had a child. So, it’s probably them who Orrinsux is referring to.
Sure is SPESHAL TWEETMENT! I’m freaking jealous that you have your own lil’ corner to whine in, and here I +hought I had a whiing talent! Perhaps TEAMers are the lucky ones, heh heh!
Good luck to em! It is hard to stop people from speaking A) The Truth or B) Their Opinion or C) Sharing their experiences in Team.
More people need to come out and EXPOSE Orrin for the snake oil sales-man that he truly is.
Another thing, the guy promotes Christianity on stage and uses that for credibility to build his business, yet he is in bed with a Mormon juice company and Morman leaders in Dalin Larsen. Orrin supports the MORE project, which is just another MORMON outreach program.
Are Steve Camp and Tom Ascol listening? Who are they you ask? They are the new team pastors being scammed by Orrin Woodward. I do not know them personally, but I highly doubt they are bad individuals and they are probably sincere Christians who are seeking to advance God’s Kingdom here on earth. That is great. The problem I have is that they are being duped and mis-lead by Orrin who is using them for his own personal gain and for credibility. THEY NEED TO DO THEIR RESEARCH and see that the very business they are endorsing with ORRIN goes against everything THEY STAND FOR as PREACHERS and CHRISTIANS!!
webelieved & Speak Your Truth – Great chattn with you folks too last night. Sorry it took me a while to get on here today, had to get back to the grind in 95%ville, and man does it feel good!! 😉
I bet these pastors have no idea that they are in bed with leaders and a company that support a faith (Mormonism) that is totally different than the Gospel message that they preach on every Sunday.
I love the Chris Brady impressions!
Gosh that guy is a piece of work.
his latest photo on his blog in front of the little toy plane makes him look like a shady con-artist. You can tell that he is lacking in the morals dept.
Will, how about the picture of Orrin Woodward on the Forbes article. “Wiggles”???
hahahaha thanks for the laugh team deception! that was great!!
@Will – while Mormonism & Chistianity are generally not accepted in each other’s circles, Woodward may very well tell the pastors that TEAM is a Christian organisation & say that he’s praying for Dallin Larsen’s salvation. I’ve seen it myself how people twist religion to suit their needs.
I Quit
Thanks for once again, for a laugh out loud experience!
This commenter requested that her comments be removed from this site.
Say whatever became of the list of successful Teamers who are no longer on board? How long did it ever get? Seeing that many SUCCESSFUL folks bail out is a very telling statistic don’t ya think? Do we have an updated list? I’m sure some new readers would love some enlightenment?!!
This commenter requested that her comments be removed from this site.
Just a quick, question, is the profit sharing TOTALLY SEPARATE than the MV commissions from your own personal sales and personal downlines? Didn’t you still make money from the MV company?
Izzy
TOTALLY SEPARATE:
Your earn commission from MV when you have a team in MV buying the juice
Profit-sharing ~ you get made only on the tools & speaking.
I know it sounds like a stupid question esp since I was in TEAM for 7 months but I never got a single personal under me in neither MV or TEAM.
Izzy
This doesn’t sound stupid.
It more to me sounds like they were not helping you in anyway. Either you were in a “spot” that was not important to their pay or had other reasons they would only know about. So don’t beat yourself up, only 1% make it to the big money (they constantly touted the 1%) and it takes many years to get there and slowing killing yourself to get there.
Do not be ashamed, it is corrupt and does so much damage in all area’s of people’s lives.
webelived – WOW. I don’t know where to start.
Where did Orrin write this message at a month ago?
Talk about the hypocrisy.
Remember D-DAY and Team filing the lawsuit against Quixtar in August of 2007?
Remember Orrin and Chris having a GAG order by the courts stating that they were not to blog, communicate or solicit IBOs in Quixtar?
Remember Orrin rallying up his troops and creating a devastating SMEAR campaign against Quixtar posting FALSE statements, SLANDEROUS comments, lies and accusations to belittle Quixtar, the Quixtar founders and Quixtar executives? Now I am not a pro Q person by any means, however, I am just pointing out that Orrin was totally FINE bashing, lying, blogging anonymously and hurling unethical, immoral and derogatory slurs against Q. And now he is trying to pull the card that people shouldn’t blog anonymously?
What a hypocrite!!
We are on this site sharing the truth, our experiences and opinions. Far from SLANDERING anyone the way ORRIN DID against Quixtar.
Remember SAVE US DICK DEVOSS and how they SLANDERED the DeVoss family by calling them a bunch of inbreds? Yeah, that is REAL CHRISTIAN LIKE!!! Good job Orrin. Way to set an example of what a leader, christian and Team Life Training Coach should do.
To be honest, I didn’t want to really get into TEAM politics, although I never expressed my view to my upline. All I really wanted was to get my family off of welfare since I’m not able to work. I know last going off, I explained to her my anxiety disorder & depression in detail, and also having trouble communicating & grasping concepts, etc, but she just told me “don’t receive it in Jesus’s Name” & tried to tell me how intelligent I was. She never worked with the issues I brought up. There were just too much to “learn” & it was so overwhelming.
Anyway I’m just ranting, so many frigging memories…
DAN said “Or perhaps are you suggesting that people should invest 100s of thousands in anconventiomal type business that offers no guarantees and with no proven duplicatable system.”
Really Dan?
I want ONE person to show me the GUARANTEE and facts that Team has a PROVEN duplicatable system.
The only people making money in this business are the few at the top that are taken it from your pockets. I am sorry for you mate! I truly am.
@Will, just read your comment now…I believe compahies should keep religion out of business.
Ouch. >.<
I'm glad I never got far in TEAM, then. You have every right to be pissed off.
*hugs*
Will
Perhaps Dan could share with us his story and how he “earned,” his- duplicatable business? I am sure we could learn at lot from those details.
If I were a betting person, I bet it would be a real education and some amazing insight.
I have to agree with him, as a matter of fact I agree with almost all of what he says; and that this whole website has some very “interesting comments.” Just curious and wondering if he recognizes the truth in or similarities in” building the business” or is just choosing to ignore them (Because accepting most of them as factual and not just critical opinion) this could cut into the very bottom line he is trying to hang on to Hmm…?
His comment; “The critic only speaks of opinion and doesn’t show results.”
That statement is a total farce; he needs to re-read the post.
As a matter of fact Ex-team says just the opposite; he is speaking from EXPERIENCE not opinion, and Cleary states he had some results and did all that “work” that it takes; in everything in life.
This commenter requested that her comments be removed from this site.
This commenter requested that her comments be removed from this site.
Orrin and Chris had one major RULE for ALL open meeting speakers to share at the opens, and that was the fact that TEAM was/is the opportunity. They told us that they did not want to mention Quixtar because Quixtar had a bad reputation online with the so-called Negative Internet. They were afraid that people would not join, so they would pitch the business plan as if it was entirely Team and leadership development, and oh-by the way we have a small relationship with partner stores such as circuit city, disney, Sony, ATT etc. They only mentioned those large companies and never mentioned Quixtar. The same holds true with MonaVie.
They are forever stating that Team is the community and opportunity and that their partners (Quixtar and MonaVie) can change at any time.
This is really dodgy as they are not honest and up-front with people. I remember people signing up and then a few weeks later quitting and upset becasue they found out they were in Quixtar (knew of it) and wanted nothing to do with that type of business. WE WERE FREAKING AWESOME AT SIGNING PEOPLE FOR THAT TO HAPPEN, LET ME TELL YOU!!! 😉
I am sure that Speak Your Truth, Webelieved, iQuit, Izzy and Fly on the Wall can back me up with more stories and further details as well on this topic.
This commenter requested that her comments be removed from this site.
webelieved – I am SO SORRY to hear about your experience with Team and the pain and hardship this has caused you and your family. Please know that you are in our thoughts and prayers and we are here supporting you thru this. Orrin will get his, you can be sure of that. God will not let this go unpunished. I can promise you that.
haha, that is so funny webelieved and pathetic at the same time on how they operate. I used to loathe the PV parties where i had to buy 150pv from Q in order to be friends with Orrin Woodward and hang out at a party with him. What a joke.
And I agree, if they are making you slave away to hit some goal and you spend a grand in car/travel and time away from your kids, the least they can do is buy you a lunch. Orrin is the CHEAPEST little bugger I have ever seen. That is why the movie theater in his basement looks worse than going to a closed down cinema. He thinks he can impress people with his dream lifestyle that he has and all the nice things, but that guy wouldnt know what a luxurious lifestyle was if it stared him in the eye. I remember a few of my former uplines qualifed for a power player party to go out on his yacht and they came back down saying that it was run down and needed a ton of work.
The guy reminds me his own CD where he talks about JEB fishing down by the water hole. I find it funny he is making fun of some redneck on cd, when he is clearly the redneck that scammed his way into some cash and likes to think he is the next Bill Gates. Sorry Orrin. You still look and talk the way you did before (funny) and don’t have any class. People with class and a true gentlemen will not SCAM his way into wealth and lie and slander all along the way.
Will
Hypocrite and the only thing he is a Master at is Manipulation! He slivers into people’s lives and uses them as pawns. I have seen this for many years but my spouse, even with some pointing out of everything I could, without sounding too “negative.” He wasn’t so discerning unfortunately because of “the friendship he believed he had he had with this snake” postal doesn’t even come close to this one!
There is no hiding his character now, is there?
When I started to see and feel something really wrong with him and seriously questioning; “something mentally going wrong and his true colors bleeding through” was about 5 years before the exodus (out of team completely) when he started being vocal about telling us to “edifying only him.” I don’t remember his slippery wording but I truly began to see and feel something very eerie. I could almost see “the power trip he and was putting himselve on.” I knew something was really wrong and the ‘bible studies”, the seminars and hoopla started to become smoke and mirrors to me because some of what they said I knew was ½ truth/lies but I felt trapped. I was battling inside, then would get around my team and forget about it somewhat, until the next seminar or major. Then it became louder and louder from there and I became sicker also. Hindsight now; OMG Cult leaders written all over it!
I remember he would make comments about others “outside,” “the us versus them”” CULT TACTIC,” where he would say “they are going to eat their words;” Referring to the critics. The irony of it all is mindboggling! There has to be way for more people out there to speak up. The thing people don’t understand fully is there isn’t a ton of people that made it close enough to see what the RT and above had seen and others that were around since the beginning. Thank God we didn’t go Diamond! But more need to share, even if is a year they had been in, how much they lost etc..
webelieved – That is a great question. I know that I know of some people and I am sure that you and Speak Your Truth, Izzy, iQuit and others could REACH OUT as well. Obviously, we all need to be delicate, gracious about the situation. It is hard trying to be professional when we all feel so much anger and hurt over what happened. I will try to tone down my rhetoric as well and let just the Righteous Anger come out. Sorry if a few of my previous posts were ranting and off topic, I just have some much bitterness and resentment from what I experienced, like you all here.
So, lets try and reach out to others in a nice way and see if we can get them to understand the importance of speaking out to let people know the truth. If we all got just one person we could DOUBLE OUR NUMBERS right? Hey! There’s a thought. How about we call it —
EACH ONE REACH ONE 😉
haha
Dorothy
I think these guys did answer but maybe I can shed more light latter, I am really tired after reading Ryan’s post, whew I will catch up with him latter too.I will answer the trip thing, we didn’t even know ourselves, can you imagine what a shock this was to all of us that busted our butts to get there. Slow indoctrination, means slowly give the info. it is the only way to get people hooked, without you or I knowing, clever, slimy, and unethical, we now know(after fog lifts) that is why we are all on here.
Webelived lol on the dinner, been there did that too many times to count!
Remember the fun-in-the-sun.
Will I heard Bill and Jackie bought OW mich. home. Didnt try and dig on this, to verify though. O must needed to get out of town quick, lol
This commenter requested that her comments be removed from this site.
Dorothy
This is very shady talk and they never really come out and say it, but it is meant in both juice & profit-sharing because it counts for volume in MV and counts for system in Team, they go hand in hand. Orrin did not come up with this, this has been repeated since the system began decades ago.
We learned way back that the numbers in system brought butts in seats which = the volume. This was very predicatable and proved out, because of the indoctrination of the system, duh-hindsight again they would stay in, then you could push the volume, once they were on system or even if they weren’t because we could move people up the bonus chart with allot of pursuasion because we could prove to them they would get a bonus, even though some would only get $6 at the bottom but they were new. Oh the memories are flooding now, I really don’t know how they do it in MV and honestly don’t care.
This commenter requested that her comments be removed from this site.
They didn’t explain anything to me, & I thought it was all Monavie that was doing everything. I had no idea about any profit sharing in TEAM whatsoever! of a person earns or wins a trip, then why do we have to pay for it? That doest make any sense whatsoever either.
I joined in August 2009 and at that time the focus was on the juice as well as a wealthy lifestyle.
Another thing d didn’t realise was that many of the CD speakers were in Amway (only found out from you guys) but they all seemed to make it sound like all their success was in Monavie ‘and so that’s what basically assumed.
Dorothy
Yes and Yes to all your questions, it can seem complex but when you are so involved and too busy to think, it escapes you. But I can see you are starting to understand this.
Thanks webelieved I think you are explaining it well, but this we know is confusing to anyone that would come in new because it is information over load is how it is sold and that is true in allot of ways, but they conviently leave out the important stuff and could be explained fairly easy to a new person, but that is what they don’t want, you are to follow marching orders because your upline knows best and they let you know by them going with you in the begining so you will watch and do what they say and do.
Is this making any sense to you?
More Indoctrination! seriously have you ever listen to like 6 cd’s in one day, you become intoxicated on the information and feel like superman/women and nobody is going to say no to you. Rejection and doubt are the 2 biggest reason’s people quit, if they can keep you listening to cd’s “staying intoxicated and superhuman” none of the doubt or rejection bothers you.
This commenter requested that her comments be removed from this site.
Sorry I meant to add to your what do you win? Pride and more indoctrination, unless your upline or someone has stated specifically they will give the winners something. We would give top 50’s away for the our teams that would bring the most people to majors. We won a couple top-guns so I am sure anyone that would read this would like 1 of our secrets.
I’ve heard of those contests top prize was the Top 50 pack. That was around $260 and in TEAM everyone pressed that on the new people. I didn’t get it because of its price, and I figure that I’d eventually “get” the Top 50 pack throughall those millions of CD’s that they kept on pressing on us through the System.
This commenter requested that her comments be removed from this site.
Glad to be of help, it is really hard sometimes to remember people in your position, for one we are no longer in any building mode and 2 it has been a long time. So THANK YOU, in helping us to try and explain in simple terms because we are soooo used to the cult language, that it is even difficult for us (at least me) to explain it any other way.So it is you that can help ask the questions so that we could help the new person understand what they are getting into.
you figured right, izzy
I am glad you didn’t go futher in debt because they would switch out cd’s every year and call it a new top 50. It is a shame the way they drown people in debt!
@ Speak, leeks, the emotional IMPACT those CD’s had once person was simply overwhelming!!! I’d feel freaking awesome after listening to even one or 2! Dorothy, they basically served as a “pick-me up” of sorts for those of us who are struggling in the business as I was. I Id feel encouraged once again to continuous my hunt for that elusive downline .lol
This commenter requested that her comments be removed from this site.
Argh, I’m drowning my posts with the typos from the tablet-to-keyboard software! Can’t wait for my new laptop to arrive :-p
Dorothy, I got rid of my last boo of TE AM junk a few evenings ago, d suggest you do the same. It hurt, but it seemed as a relief after! it wasn’t an easy decision but the stuff is CRAP!
This commenter requested that her comments be removed from this site.
Dorothy
You are right about the “special meetings” but there is more to this thought process.
Not everyone is invited because they want you to do more, buy more and keep you in the gerbil wheel of the performance cult activity, this does a couple of things, your body and mind slowly becomes conditioned so that you will do more otherwise you would not be able to take it all at once.
The specialized teaching sort-of the higher you get and the more of these meetings to go to they get harder and harder on you mental state because depending, if it is for new people, they will talk real nice, give you accolades (if you are out performing others) and maybe give some inspirational talk, they work the new person’s emotion’s with allot of force.
The bigger pins and up, you could call these sessions “a beating” this is when the wolves come out at you with some full force to get you to comply and those that have “reported on people” let say someone said they had seen me in the hall talking to cross-line, then in that meeting they would be very forceful about the cross-lining issue. So what ever they thought the leaders weren’t complying to or “being naughty” that would be the lashing meeting. You could almost guess sometimes who they were berating. But again they only do this to those “they would consider the bigger leaders” It is humilation at it’s finest.
This commenter requested that her comments be removed from this site.
Good reminder maybe we could get Amthrax to take that list after of course Will would be so kind to update it. He really has a good memory on that stuff.
This commenter requested that her comments be removed from this site.
Izzy
You reminded me, we had to earn and pay for our fun-in-the-sun trip(all except the room which you could say yes we did because it came from the profit-sharing that everybody on system was paying for, including us!) But I believe I was out at this time or going out, but they were promoting a year in advance the next one that they were gonna pay for something like 20 people that could win. Now this could be a brand new person that they I believe was going to draw out of a hat. Maybe someone can help me with these details. Anyway, how do you think that made all those including the leaders that were going along with the “winners” because the LEADERS that EARNED it still had to pay their way! It is discusting and makes me angry still.
Dorothy
I know this is hard to comprehend, but it is all to trap you into the vicious cycle and you are begining to understand. But you have to remember it is an unending cycle to trap you to keep you there, please don’t take that lightly.
When I wanted to do research when I first joined TEAM, I was told not to else I’d get overloaded with too much information. I was instructed to listen to started beginner packs to learn about the business step – by-step.I was told not to go by outside sources as they wouldn’t know anything; and so what better place to go to but to the source? They’d give on example that we don’t go to Waymart or someplace else to learn how to run a Mac Donald’s franchise. you go right to the source, which is what they dubbed “hamburger university” for all you information. Those guys are pretty sick in their wording to keep your only listening to TEAM crop and nothing outside.
ARGH! I meant TEAM crap, not “crop” – dang software interpreters, lol
I see webelieved is recalling.
Dorothy
The “special meetings”have an air of secrecy/highly promoted excitement on purpose so that it will make you “want it, like an addiction” to go especially if you were a person that likes a challenge. We used/played the personalities to the max, especially for the “promotions, tickets, and special meetings.” This is another form of manipulation that was effective. This is really sickening with these memories come back, I am so glad you and izzy didn’t suffer ( don’t mean you didn’t suffer, you clearly have) I mean in years and years and years of slavery and indoctrination.
Hope I answered all your questions and really hope it helps to understand more of the manipulation, lies and deception.
Published a new blog post about “How You Were Prospected?”
Feel free to contribute your story about how you got roped into one of these MLMs and training organizations (TEAM, WWDB, R3Global, etc.).
webelieved
I totally agree with you, I never saw most of what happened, the way I cleary see it now. It really is exhausting.
Another topic on which comments would be appreciated is my TEAM Tool Trunk post way back in 2009.
Can some of the ex-TEAM members comment on this product? I found it to be a colossal waste of money, and I hope none of you purchased it!
Great idea, Amthrax and I will post on the tool trunk too.
Speak Your Truth – Thanks for you last comment in this particular thread. Very good insight into how Team operates.
Remember Orrin and Chris teaching us leaders the value and importance of THIRD PARTYING others? That is exactly what you described. They will HAMMER anyone for anything they see fit.
The secret meetings! Oh geeeeeezzzzz, where to start??!!??!!
Good topic for discussion here class.
Lesson # 1 – As Speak Your Truth pointed out, they were all about SECRECY, HYPE and a form of ADDICTION. People HAD to make it to Go Diamond or whatever other BS meeting they were promoting.
Lesson # 2 – There was nothing secret about it. PERIOD. I would come back from one of these meetings and our teammates who didn’t qualify would view themselves as a third world citizen, making comments like ” I am so upset we didn’t make it, we needed that in order to move on to the next level. I have to wait till next year. What did they say at the meeting? Oh, I understand if you cant tell me. I should have qualified. Was it good? Man..I am kicking myself for not getting it done. IF ONLY I MADE IT THEN I WOULD NO WHAT TO DO TO ADVANCE TO THE NEXT LEVEL!!”
My team was DEVASTATED when they missed out on these meetings and you know what? They said nothing special? There was NO SECRET SAUCE!!!!!!!!!!!!!! It was the SAME OL’ SAME OL’!!!
SSDD!!!!
That was it.
More talk on going Power Player, more talk on relationships, more talk on PV and all that nonsense. You walk away all fired up and then your JOB is to go back and TELL your team how awesome it was so that they will WANT to be there next year. And as I mentioned they all feel guilty and disgusted with themselves that they did not make it. Which is SOOOOOO WRONG. It makes me sick to think about.
These are human beings and people are FREAKING toying with them as if they are pigs.
Webelieved – Dan sounds exactly like a CD, you are absolutely RIGHT!
The CD I am thinking of is Handling Objections (Oh, I think that was PPS 25 maybe, by Orrin Woodward himself)
Yes, Sad that I still remember that after all these years when that CD probably came out in 2003.
The guy CLEARLY is not thinking for himself. Rather he is spewing out orrin woodward life training BS.
SAD really
Speak Your Truth
lol, Bill and Jackie Lewis
Can’t believe they would buy Orrin’s house. “THE SPANISH MANSION”
Sorry, that does not make you sound exotic by ay stretch.
Has anyone heard much about Bill and Jackie lately? I know they are still PC and obviously raking in the cash, but wondered what the latest scoop was with their business. They have not made the headlines lately in this business, except for the rumors going around about…….oh……..you know……..
RE: “How You Were Prospected?”
I know my storey would help a lot of people and most of you would not believe me. Lets just say that I’ve been around Team before it was Team. Before Monavie, before it was Team of Destiny (TOD), before Amway. Before Orrin was plugging into Jim & Sue Pare and Ron & Toby Hale (which were sponcered downline from Dexter Yager).
Read the rest of this comment here
trapped by team – I am sorry to hear about what happened with you and your business.
Thanks for sharing your story on here.
Do you ever see any of your old teammates in the Flint area? Is the business still growing well with Team Monavie, or is it struggling?
Thanks for your story. Can you post it under the actual How Were You Prospected post instead of this one? I’ll delete this comment after you post it. Thanks.
But wait, all of humanity must be saved from itself! Team has the answer to all these woes! RESISTANCE IS FUTILE! YOU WILL BE ASSIMILATED! ALL RISE. HIS EMMINENCE HAS ENTERED THE ROOM. YOU MAY KISS THE RING.
Amthrax
I don’t know if there is so many readers now and everyone coming on at once but I am having trouble getting on to this site. Do you have a back-up?
Amthrax
Maybe you could copy and paste it with the comments before more people comment, just asking because not sure if trapped by team, will be back?
Holy Crap I Quit, you are such a blessing! You know right when to pop in with your humor and make me lmao!
I wish I could say I never purchased it but that would be untrue. …
Read the rest of this comment here
Will
Lesson 2- great job of explaining the “Secrets-THERE WERE NONE!”
So don’t buy into it, and your last 4 sentences, is why we are here, to lift-up and encourage those; from the pit of Hell! Oh the irony- and I wonder how they like eating their own words! With all those words, they will need a weight loss company or product, LOL!
I Quit- Great post, worth the read!But could you copy and paste it under the “tool trunk topic”, I believe that is what Amthrax was asking.
I’d luv to but I have no idea how!! Computers are not one of my favorite things! Any chance you can move it for me there Amthrax?
Trapped by Team
WE DO BELIEVE YOU!
What a perfect fit for a handle name, I felt the same.
I remember allot about what you say and what you say is truth.
We welcome you here and I know it takes tremendous courage to speak out, but is the most freeing!
Maybe you have found a way to deal with all those years of being trapped, I pray you have, but if not please come here to vent, or whatever you need to do. You are not alone.
When you said;”I left with nothing and now I can’t get back those 12 years of my life. My kids are older and I missed out on so many moments in life.”
I sense your saddness and this was the heart wrenching moment for me and a lot of others on here.
I am so sorry. We do understand this pain. You will be in our hearts and prayers. Thanks for sharing.
p.s. I remember being told CB named his 1st child after Casey C, I also remember Casey’s on stage and his Cd’s.
Will & Team deception- Ever watched his “Black Diamond Eyes Speach for MV?”
There is seriously something that mentally “snapped.” Spooky!
Hi, everyone, promised you that I’d write a blog post on my personal MV/TEAM experience, it’s not in good grammar as I mainly copied & pasted from my notes as my keyboard isn’t working, but it does tell accurately my story. I really hope someone would think twice about joining TEAM.
Amthrax,I included a link to your biog for help & support, as I don’t want to take away from the work you’re doing here. I think you are doing a fantastic job & I want to continue to support you as much as I’m able.
Regards, Izzy
Webelieved
So sorry again, I know how heart wrenching this is for you! You must feel way better after releasing all that! I am glad you shared this, and know this gives others a clear picture of what they should see is the most atrocious, criminal, unethical, immoral, unjust, corrupt, diabolical, and greedy farce, that reeks havoc on the human; mind, body, and soul.
Our story is almost identical. When people come on here to read your story and other comments and are still in question whether they should get started or keep following “the mis-leaders”,Team(life coaches,they are not qualified)there really is nothing anyone can do for them, I would even be inclined to say they are blind and or brain dead after reading your story.
It may seem unbelievable to some only because it is all so intoxicating for the new person, but trust us it is strategic. Truth is stranger than fiction.
Webelieve, also know that what is left for all of us; is to rise above and we will! But boy did we get an education, and not from their bogus twisted greedy manipulated teachings to benefit their idol $$.
It sickens me and is an insult to the intelligence of others when the “smart guys/gals” (believe and judge without knowing),judging by I am not sure what, maybe a crystal ball or something that we don’t want to improve or better ourselves, or be productive. These people try to play God for everyone else, no different then what we have already experienced;which I have negative, in the hole, respect for.
I learned almost all of the principles that were taught”in the system” (minus how to steal, cheat, lie, deceive and manipulate to gain materialism) matter of fact, that is the exact opposite of what the bible and my parents have taught me.
I believe, “Self-improvement “is a continuation for the most part; the experience of LIFE and the Lessons in it! There are many great leaders and principles to learn from. I was reading self-improvement books way before we ever were a part of the Team. But my greatest teachers have been; some of my life’s most crushing experience, my parents, and relatives, true friends and even strangers and the BIBLE. They DO NOT KNOW US and don’t have a flipping clue what we desire for ours and others lives, whether we “gave up” on improving ourselves, is simply judgment without fact. God uses the weak to take out the strong. Just because we don’t want to be greedy or twist biblical teachings, to gain a worthless piece of silver, means nothing at to what we want to achieve in life.
Their time is coming; they have earned (the only thing they’ve earned) the right to have this come full circle back on them. THEY SHALL REAP WHAT THEY HAVE SOWN!
So hang in there Webelieved; we are in this together, GOD willing, We Will Win this battle!
Thanks to all of you that have respected and cared for us for a time such as this!
Speak Your Truth – I just watched this for the first time and I wanted to PUKE.
Seeing how he and Laurie promote this business as HOPE for families and a great income opportunity for those he STICK makes me absolutely sick to my stomach. Orrin mentioned “You have honor and integrity because you STUCK when the emotions and hype faded away after you made your decision to go Black Diamond. You guys are winners because you are here…you STUCK!”
That is such a load of bollocks. I say the people who wake up and leave are the SMART ones for not doing the same thing over and over again hoping to get a different result. Remember that quote? That is the definition of insanity, and guess what I AM NOT INSANE. I GOT OUT. The people who STUCK like Orrin is referring to in this video are truly the INSANE ones as they do the same thing, year in year out, losing all their time and money and NEVER achieving the results.
You should be really proud Orrin.
Oh, and Speak Your Truth – YES, he did snap and something totally is not right up there. LOL
Thanks for brining this vid to our attention.
Anybody know if the following team leaders are still building the business or if they quit what their story is for leaving:
Mike & Carol Foos
Ed & Lynette Zentner
Mike & Viola Gowen
I know Greg Rau left pretty upset against team and Orrin as they pulled the same shenanigans on him as they did with Jeff Granger and it webelieved and Speak Your Truth. Basically STOLE his team and left him for broke after years of effort on Gregs part and THE SO-CALLED FRIENDSHIP that took place between the inner circles of the leaders and people you mentor with. I would love to hear his story on this blog. Does anyone have any updates on what Greg is up to and if he is still friends or not with Don Freeze?
I haven’t a clue but I believe I saw something on linkedin,but I too wish all the leaders would come on here.
Will you will need to add Pat & Lisa Semple to that list, they were profit-shares-gone from the glorious teachings!
All the 3 names you mentioned I believe are still there.
I wonder if we are connected on linkedin? 😉 We need to find a way to chat on the phone. Still think it would be good for Amthrax to schedule a skype or google voice call with a few of us.
Will I can send him my number for you.
looking forward to talking with you SYT!
Thanks everyone the support and therapy! Going to call it a night, see you all for tomorrows class!!
Here is a list of those on the team you may have asked about.
Jim & Shelly Jones
The Magic
Orrin & Laurie Woodward
Team PC
Mark Mester
The Phalanx of Team Rampage
John & Lynn Mossner
Team Momentum
Chad & Carol Baker
Dream Team Freedom Fighters
Felmar & Sandra Montenegro
United Team International
Steve & Beth Morgan
Leadership Company
Kirk & Nicole Porter
Team Maximus
Brian & Sherry Powers
Musketeers
David & Megan Volpe
Warriors
Steve & Beth Morgan
Leadership Company
Chris & Terri Brady
Team PC
Felmar & Sandra Montenegro
United Team International
Brian & Sherry Powers
Musketeers
Larry & Marsie VanBuskirk
Dan & Lisa Hawkins
Team Stealth
Mark Mester
The Phalanx of Team Rampage
Joseph & Michele Davis
Tao Rhino
Ken & Denise Wrobleski
North Star Liberators
Sheldon & Pauline Bouchard
Team Central
Jim & Shelly Jones
The Magic
Holger & Lindsey Spiewak
Crusaders
Chris & Danaé Mattis
The Magic
Bob & Kathy Meder
Warrior Knights
John & Lynn Mossner
Team Momentum
Josh & Angelica Dames
Team Maximus
Dean & Teresa Frey
Team Explosion
David & Claudia Walker
Team One Purpose
Joe & Jane McGuire
Team Bulldog
Joe & Laura Darkangelo
Rampage Renegades
WordPress experienced an outage earlier today. Yes, I keep backups.
Chris Brady is teaching how to show the plan
More on the REAL story later( here they teach making money through MV, NOT where the real money is made and how…yep, team approach volume because the folks on the top are making money off all the people at the bottom. How? off the system, tickets etc.)
I guess I did not see it in here below that they teach that to the new guys. Oh wait, they dont teach that actually those on the special team pay check make more. oh, and…guess what..yeah, that means you work for them, they pay you and you work and work and work and work…but you are paying them to pay you… more on the simple details later..
8F diagram – this is simply a high-level introduction to the plan. You should not delve into the “F” categories and begin explaining them, but rather just show the prospect(s) that what we do impacts people’s lives in a lot of different and important ways. People can choose to focus upon one or more categories that means the most to them. When moving on from this slide, it might be best to say something like, “Now let me show you the vehicle we use to make these kinds of impacts in people’s lives.”
ESBI – the point of ESBI is to show the prospect that there are two basic ways to make money: one that involves SPENDING time and one that involves INVESTING time. This means that bucket carrying on one side is exhausting and ultimately burns up the days of one’s life (remember to put all bad examples on yourself), while pipeline building accumulates effort and can lead to long term, ongoing income. It is during this part of the talk where prospects should become convinced that they are either money broke, or time broke, or both. Another thing to point out about the two sides is that on the left side it is all about YOU and what YOU do, while on the right side it is all about a SYSTEM and what the SYSTEM does for you. We are quoting best-selling author Robert Kiyosaki as our authority on this.
45 Year Plan – This is the data to back up the feeling of futility on the E and the S side of the ESBI. Here we use government data to show that most people are stuck in a rut for a really long time.
Want Circle vs. Income Circle – This is where you can get even more specific about the Dream. Try to hit all categories, from toys to travel to time and freedom to contribution and the more important things in life.
The 3 C’s – This is the first of three times you will be showing this slide. At this point it is to introduce the concept (using Michael Dell as the authority) of Content, Commerce, and Community, and the fact that Dell said it would take those three categories at a world-class level to have a business that would thrive over the long term. Next you can explain the Content circle as the MonaVie products.
Product Portfolio – This is where you give some of the brief examples of what we have to offer in the Content circle. Don’t get too bogged down here or try to become a scientist, instead, tell them how much you love the products, how they have received rave reviews, and how MonaVie has been so successful with them that they sold over a billion $’s worth in just over 3 years!
The 3 C’s – this is the second time you are showing this chart. This time it is to emphasize the Commerce circle, which represents money changing hands and the incentives being properly aligned. You can talk about how in many situations in the corporate world compensation isn’t “fair.” In the case of MonaVie’s pay plan, it IS fair and will reward them based upon their effort. Hit this only briefly, and then turn to the next slide to give them the specifics on how the Commerce part works.
Team Approach – this slide shows how we build an organization to take make money in MonaVie’s pay plan. The main point here is that the prospect(s) will be part of a team, will have help, and will have a team growing with, through, and for them before they know it! Go “Bananas” on Team Approach! It is also on this slide where you refer them to MonaVie’s Income Disclosure Statement. Make sure to point it out to them and encourage them to take a copy for themselves.
The 3 C’s – This is the third and final time you will show the 3 C’s slide. The point here is that Community is the biggest of Dell’s three circles. The other stuff has been important, even critical, but THIS is where the Team comes in! It’s COMMUNITY that makes a difference, and that separates us from everything else out there. COMMUNITY is the key! Tell the story of the power of community in people’s lives, such as the habits they form for where to eat, where to buy their products, etc. and how people in a true community are not just clients or customers, but evangelists for the idea. The Team community makes such an impact in people’s lives (in those 8F categories we talked about at the beginning) that people aren’t just participants, they’re fired up enthusiasts for the community! If your life could get impacted in so many meaningful ways, wouldn’t you be fired up about it too? (Take it back to their dreams and their dreads, etc.) This is the other time to go “Bananas.”
Team System – the point of this slide is to show the what’s behind the Community circle. Let them know they will have help. This is where you can overcome a bunch of their hesitations by explaining the Team “has a program for that.”
Details of the Team System – the point of this slide is to give them the specifics on what our community involves and exactly how it impacts people’s lives in those 8F categories. Emphasize the importance of association, learning, listening, and attending. This is also a good time to promote the next Seminar.
What If? – the point of this slide is to take them back to the big picture and make it real in their lives. What if they joined this community and had some of the benefits in these 8 categories we talked about? Take them back to the dream and the possibilities of living a better life.
Have Fun, Make Money, Make a Difference – this slide is a way to show them some of the leaders with whom they’ll be associating and from whom they’ll be learning. It is also a way to introduce the slogan that represents our community, showing them that we aren’t only about making money, but also about having a good time and making a difference in people’s lives.
(Note: these last two slides can be covered quite quickly. If you’ve done a good plan, it will be a bit of overkill if you dwell too long on these summary statements.)
Those are the main points of each of the slides and what you’re trying to accomplish with each. Now go out there and tear it up!!!!!!
This commenter requested that her comments be removed from this site.
I have Skype, we should have a Skype chat room for us ex-TEAMers. I’ll send Amthrax my Skype ID, if he or someone who has been in TEAM for a few years can own a chat room.
This is pretty much the same garbage I myself told to thousands of people. While I will admit some of it has merit, I must point out that it don’t mean jack if the motive and the individual behind the info is shall we say, less than honest. If its all so wonderful Mr. or Mrs. Teambot, why have so many rich, successful Team performers disappeared? with many showing up here telling stories so horrific that they just can’t be made up?? Yes I can hear it now- “Those losers are just angry because they weren’t willing to do the work any more.” Man if you buy any similar load of horse dung you deserve to be in the next group of “effed by Orrin and co.” Cuz its comin’!! WATCH OUT!!
Insider thanks for sharing.
What is your story with Team?
That Diamond Eyes video…that’s some scary $hit there bro. He needs to be shot with a tranquillizer dart.
Insider
Great job of clearly explaning how to build Amway! oops, I mean Team Training, oops or MV!
Nothing new under the sun this is the way it’s ALWAYS been done with maybe some exception, of a few manipulated, “trendy words”!
Just as Trapped said.
You could join my team though, I bet you could sponsor many with your methodical approach ( I mean that as a compliment)
Oh yes, Chris Brady, the slickest talker, too bad he doesn’t realize he is a pawn for Orrin.Can’t wait til Orrin is backed into a corner and has to choose between his $$$ and any of the policy counsel’s friendship, that I would call a straight up Miracle! Orrin uses EVERYONE to spread their “message of hope” so he can say “I didn’t say that” or “we did tell you that” DECEPTION, when the heat comes down.
People will never believe Orrin’s friendship is not sincere, UNTIL, it is too late and he has SOLD you out and stole your team to save HIS own profit-sharing $$ and discarded you as a piece of trash.
“MV is HOPE as Helping Other People Excel”??
HOPE–noun
1. the feeling that what is wanted can be had or that events will turn out for the best: to give up hope.
2. a particular instance of this feeling: the hope of winning
HOPELESS!
I think they are mistaken and it sounds like they are selling Amway!
SSDD!
The 3 C’s – this is the second time you are showing this chart.
This time it is to emphasize the Commerce circle, which represents money changing hands and the incentives being properly aligned.
They could save themselves allot of time, energy and breath!
This is all that needs to be said; emphasis on”MONEY CHANGING HANDS.”
Right out of your’s into theirs!
OMG I Quit
I love your choice of words! I am getting so many bruises and sore stomach mucles from (FOMCL) falling off my chair laughing!
If it weren’t for people like you, Will, Vogel, Aurora,Webelieved, and others, I would not be able to laugh about this!
This commenter requested that her comments be removed from this site.
Speak Your Truth – What do you think it will take bring more exposure to this scam and the ethical issues about Orrin stealing others downline etc?
This commenter requested that her comments be removed from this site.
Also, what are all the names that we missed on our previous list?
I know you mentioned that Pat & Lisa Semple are gone. Do you know more about their story?
I believe these two were mentioned as well.
Janel Brost
Brian Rodman?
How about Mike Kassem? He was part of Mark Hubers team.
Remember the Jones brothers? Mike and Steve vanished off the face of team universe too. Anyone know about their story?
I also forgot about Matt Zimmerman. He was a big Turbo 100 and a personal to Chris Bray I believe. He got out way early…prior to quixtar lawsuit days. Smart guy, he is.
I can’t believe I looked up to this guy, what a sick, twisted individual. For him to use the words “honor” and “character” is a complete sham.
That made me sick to my stomach.
2-5 years. I love that. I love asking people in team that have been in it for 8-9 years and follow the system to a tee, what’s it like to be a millionare? You sure are frugal with your money. If I were a millionare raking in your dough I would at least own a house.
This commenter requested that her comments be removed from this site.
I wrote about Team Approach Volume back in November, but you have added additional information about this. I’ll be copying your comment over on the main post. Thanks.
webelieved
OMG~ They have become so desperate and need to stoop to this,they have to pay someone to get on system and we know they have been breaking the rules buying 12 cases which cost $1000? Is this what they call incentive?? Hmm…..No suprise though, just another “trick” for their bag!
JUSTICE that they pretend to honor, really needs to be served quick and swiftly!
It is just a matter of time! Then as Will says;
BOOM GOES THE DYNAMITE!
This is serious actions that they are putting the brand new person(poor souls) in so much risk including all those other people. Because we know the mis-leaders are the one’s taking the orders from people like “Ryan”
( the real ryan is probably a good guy,wonder how he has ignored his conscience on this one!)
Oh anything goes for that worthless piece of silver right? And they are ‘changing the world, right…. for the worse!)
Anything can be spun to their twisted view but this would be manipulation and deception to add to their countless other unethical practices.
Then you have people that come on here to defend this BS and try and preach to people saying nothing they do is unethical? Great and mighty decievers they are, they are not Honest, Godly, and have spotless Integrity!
I HOPE MONAVIE IS READING THIS! HOW LONG DO THEY REALLY THINK THEY WILL SURVIVE,WOULD THEY TURN A BLIND EYE??
THIS IS EASY ENOUGH TO DETECT AND SEE, and if any of them choose to turn a blind eye,hmm… do you think, how do these people sleep at night?!!!
Thank God the Team did to us what they did, by so cleverly stealing our profit-sharing, but I would rather live in a cardboard box than sell my soul!
HOLY FRIGGIN FRAGGIN CRAP ON A STICK!!!!!!!!!!!! Folks I am literally in shock! I’m sitting here reading eating my breakfast and I’m now nnnaaawwwssshhuuuuussssss! (misspelled on purpose Teambot. HEE HEE) We bailed out before any of this was implemented so this is all new to me!
TEAMBOT, THINK… You are injecting money at the bottom, creating “false success”. Normie new guy has no idea what just happened. All he’s got is a major case of confusion. Thats a good thing? After creating all this “volume” flow everybody up the leg is getting paid. Hopefully you did your homework and put the volume in the exact, perfect spot in the leg so the investor(s) oh I’m sorry LEADER(S) can recoup their volume (investment). Then a whole bunch of people hit a new pin level and feel great about being kick-ass biz builders! (How did I do that? Oh well, whatever! Lets do it again!! Woo Hoo!) Repeat process several times and depth forces investor oh damn! Sorry! leader to be working with new Normie new guy and old Normie new guy is left high and dry still not knowing WTF is going on. “But its growin’! he says. But he’s a little ticked because he can’t get answers to his questions. I would bet that this “proprietary information” is not available on a cd, brochure, book or covered at any seminar!!! I wonder why? Anyway so now the “system” can’t be of much help which is what is supposed to be the overall goal right? B type biz, system doing the work for you not you doing the work remember?
Anyway back to the volume thing. Basically what you’ve got is an unsustainable house of cards income. As long as the volume is pumping in or ” loading” you’ll be ok. What happens when enough people realize the structuring being used benefits others (investors) (Damn there I go again, leaders) more than themselves? What happens when the funds being injected stop? Answer: CRASH AND BURN!!! Think the whole process thru and it comes up PYRAMID!! How can you not see it? Holy crap am I glad I QUIT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I Quit
EXCELLENT!
GOD HAS OTHER PLANS FOR US!
AS YOU STATED BEFORE AND I AGREE HAD A BETTER PLAN THAT PRISION FOR US, LOL
This commenter requested that her comments be removed from this site.
Izzy
Thanks so much, I am sorry to say their are probably thousands and thousands and thousands of people just like you. But I believe from you story you are putting things back together and doing allot better. This is so sad to repeatedly hear stories like yours because they really don’t care about your credit cards being maxed out. At one point in the business we had 9 maxed out 2 of them were before and the rest was because of the Team/Amway. We had many children to take care of and were dumping ALL our money into the system, and at that time we were only making a quarter off each tape, it wasn’t even enough to pay for the shipping!
So thanks again, and things will continue to look up!
Speak , I think that the Monavie honchos are more then aware that this is going on and I think that inventory loading happens even if people aren’t involved in TEAM. There was a discussion around this because cases and cases of it were being dumped on E-bay and it was determined that it had to be an “inside” job. I believe that this was being done before the marriage between MV & TEAM.
In any event, Larsen, Hart & Woodward are, to quote a completely appropriate saying “thick as thieves” and there is no way that Monavie is unaware of TEAM’s practices but they turn a blind eye to it, just as they turn a blind eye to the illegal practices going on within their own ranks. I predict when TEAM goes down, Monavie will try to distance themselves but oh what a tangled web they have woven and it will do them no good.
I have a question that is a bit off topic. Deanna wrote on the Juice scam site stating that TEAM was very traditional in it’s views about the role of women and men in the family and business. Women should stay at home and take care of the children & not worry their pretty little heads about this “business thing”. Men were born to be leaders, not women. I note that there are a lot of women posting on here and they appear to have been the one’s really “in charge”. Was this something that was preached or?
Oh my! Such a deal!
Remember recognition: “Men die for it and babies cry for it”
Oh the desperation!
I am considering going back for this one.. ya right!
This commenter requested that her comments be removed from this site.
This commenter requested that her comments be removed from this site.
Yet another example of Biblical principle twisted to fit the agenda… Anybody still wondering about the exit of Pastor Dickie?!
Humiliated
Yes, they teach the “woman” should be submissive to what-ever there husband’s do and also use the bible to close this deal.
But if a women starts out being the one building (and there are 3 women, we had/have knowledge of 2 of these women very well that big numbers and their groups and know the other one long story.) They started building singly this way and they were kicking butt, with very “big business” but only 1 is still in building solely without her husband,( that I am aware of their could be more now) but they do not want it to stay this way!
So, they off stage keep these women in the high performance cult building mode, give them enough “edification” all the while the “leaders” that are working directly with them are continually trying to get the man to come on board and build it. They without a doubt are treated differently, many abuses 1 in particular kicked out of her main leg that SHE BUILT big enough, until they found the couple they thought was “the traditional” ones and the shyster at the top took over her group. But because you are taught to worship and promote your upline, this is how they can take over at anytime, especially if a women is kicking their uplines butt, oh boy the jealousy kicks in and look out! They are always looking for the next builders underneath of you, so they can make you indispensable and especially women in particular. You rarely see these women get promoted from stage but they had to let them on stage before,( for stage hosting other speakers, “such an honor in their eyes, this helps to “show people you are movin-on”) because it was always based on the biggest numbers. Sorry if this is confusing,and hope it helps. I always have a difficult time explaining because EVERYTHING they do, they do with specific intent and are cleverly strategic.
Thanks for your support you have no idea what this means to all that are on here!
This commenter requested that her comments be removed from this site.
Aurora,& webelieved
You guys can explain so much better in a funny and in a easy to understand way, thx!
Dorothy
That would be exactly what that would mean,unstainable while people are going broke for God’s sake, as I quit & webelieved explained.
Now you can see why “cross-lining” and why they have so many “secrets” that they try to protect and is so important to them!
They are ruthless and God willing; JUSTICE NEEDS TO BE SERVED!
I remember Terri Brady giving a talk on stage and I think the title later came out on cd as JUST SAY YES.
The crowd was dying laughing at the underlying theme of that statement, as she was telling women that your life, marriage and business will be a whole lot better if you keep your man happy by SAYING YES.
Does this make anyone else want to hurl?
Dorothy
WOW Great explanation, your guys post are really drawing out the truths.
Thanks a bunch!
No Dorothy, there is nothing wrong with traditional roles but there is nothing wrong with non-traditional roles either. Whatever works for you, as long as women aren’t marginalized.
I have just noticed that there are a lot of very bright, motivated women on here that seem to have been the driving force behind the “business”, yet it is ironic that they are not “edified”. I just noticed that in my up-line as well, the women were the powerhouses behind it all, yet it only seemed to really work if they were a “couple”.
@Owesladouche, that story kind of sums it up. I am speechless.
This commenter requested that her comments be removed from this site.
webelieved
Hmm….. Holy Crap!
Think we should go back to this illegitimate scam, AND GET RICH, just think and get all that TEMPORARY /FAKE recognition,OH BOY!
The more “intoxication” with the “fired up folks” ~ Oh how believable, NOT!!!
Yes, & that topic should be ” What was the final straw that made us leave TEAM?” Only makes sense because Amthrax did put in a topic “How were you prospected?”
In December 2010, I ran into Mike Foos while in a meeting at GM. He’s back as an engineer. Not sure about the others.
I just watched that video. I don’t know what’s taking over me, but I am close to tears. it’s just that I see the cultic exhortation that “you ARE in for the RIGHT reasons” & just being freaking MANIPULATIVE about casting away any doubt from anyone’s minds.
A year and a half ago I would’ve laughed & be encouraged. Now, I’m freaking depressed.
Thanks for your kind words, you two, I’m glad my story helped you. We are all on similar journeys & we all will recover!
Okay, I was reading this thread and am thinking of my former upline. She’s a single blade woman in her 50’s & she was aspiring to be the first single black woman ever to hit Black Diamond. She’s very ambitious, as well I know she’s doing quite well on-the MV side. She’s got years of experience in conventional business. I’m wondering throw soon the kingpins will start mistreating her, because she doesn’t want to marry…
*sigh*
I’m definitely going to be praying really hard that she gets out soon. But as I mentioned before, some people should learn the hard way. Dear G-D, please bring this CULT down!!!
No need to apologise as we all are going through emotional hurdles. I perfectly understand.
You are forgiven!
Is it bad that I didn’t even notice the bad language? Oh well, what the hell..I forgive you!
Thinking about woman submitting to men line of teaching really makes my blood boil. Upline idiots stoke husband’s egos by statements like, “Women have short term vision ” , “Women are emotional creatures”, “True Man should bring his wife home”. Most pathetic statement to irritate husbands(usually made from the stage in functions/seminars)- ” How can you stand the fact that, your wives put on makeup and their best clothes and go work and give their best for somebody else and come back to you in the evening tired and worn out?” Yet, these same upline idiots in counselling sessions would advice the well educated women (who due to visa issues dont work) to take up any job..even baby sitting job to do what..you guessed it right “TO SUPPORT THE BUSINESS”(the main question is whose business you end up supporting).
God Forbid you had a baby and the wife wants to quit the job…you will be subjected to ridiculous statements like “You have to earn the right to retire”, “You can only leave your job with proper upline counselling.” Basically you can’t have a life and cant make a single decision by yourself. I really pity women IBOs who work and leave their kids in day care in the day and to baby sitters in the evening to build the business while making ridiculously pathetic income through the business.
Rob
Very interesting, Mike Foos triple 100, Hmm… pretty telling, wonder how he is being promoted now, had a good job bad according to them/retired with the great teachings their “proven system” of passive residual, ongoing,willable, b-type, for the rest of your life!/ went back to work and because why???? Hmm…
Will
I am sorry somehow I missed your comments. I don’t know if Amthrax gave you my email, I didn’t get anything, I think there was a gliche(sp) before and couldn’t get in but now I can. I think we should get together on email, then I can give you my number. Sounds like webelieved and some others want to do the same.
Yes, good thinking on those other names.Mike K. I really don’t know him, just of him. Steve & Mike? I thought Mike was still speaking, but wouldn’t that be a telling story along with Cullen brothers, the one that left. Wonder what this has done to their “family relationships” and if they are sharing that glorious “proven system” of theirs and how it builds relationships? Does it build or tear down? Great questions,that would help others understand more! Wish the brothers that left would share for others just what building relationships was about good/bad?
Hey Amthrax,
You can send my email to Speak Your Truth and WeBelieved
Updated List of Ex-Team LEADERS that left Orrin and and Team:
Now the question for all new people looking at this list is simply this: Are all these people BAD as Orrin will lead you to believe? Or is it possible that they all left because they all had one thing in common? That being their relationship to Orrin Woodward and SEEING his true colors. I do not know anyone who develops this many enemies and Orrin blasts all of these individuals by slandering them and lying about them as they left team. I think the problem lies with Orrin. What do you think?
Updated List – RT Members:
Jeff Granger
Raquel Peters
Dan Abraham
Greg Rau
Tom Cullen
John & Melanie Morgan
Pat Edwards
Pat & Lisa Semple
Janel Brost
Brian Rodman
Matt Zimmerman
PC Members:
Randy & Val Haugen – PC
Billy & Peggy – PC
Mark Crawford – PC
Lance Smith – PC
Chuck Goetschel – PC
Team Office:
CEO – Bob Dickie
Chief Legal Counsel – Kevin Thompson
Bob Cassidy (another executive at the office)
Team Legacy: CEO – Ron Simmons
Orrin’s Mentor/Pastor:
Pastor Dickie (man, Orrin has got to know that he is a BUM when his own Pastor wants nothing to do with him and his business either.)
The list continues to grow.
These people are not all stupid, cowards, losers, nose pickers, thumb suckers or people who were not meant to be leaders. They are simply decent human beings who recognized wrong and decided to do what was right. Kudos to this group!!
I just finished reading that book & I am exhausted! Very sad story, but am glad they got out with their marriage still intact. Wow, didthey ever went through a lot, for sure. I can’t help but think about my own sponsor, a single Black woman in her 50’s aspiring to reach to the top on her own.She’s still in the honeymoon stage, I think. I wish I can send her the ebook but I know she has blocked me 😦
Will
This is Amazing, great job! Good to see your back! I need some laughs!
Izzy
Oh geez, It is a horrifing read, that was one of the first books I read when I left and was in shock because I saw ourselves in that book in way more ways than I care to mention. Just keep praying, I’m sorry your upline has blocked you, I have had to think a lot on what true friendship is and what it means to me in many cases.
Will
What about the Jones?
haha, sorry I have been gone past few days. Back in the saddle though
Check this out: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ALhJFTsGimA
I still think they are gone, but didn’t someone on here question whether or not the Jones’ were still active?
I think you are about to wet yourself from laughing 😉
🙂 That was quite the fine upraised finger to Woodworm and the Wonder Juice.
lol, I agree!
OMFGosh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Oh thank God you are back!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Wet your pants, crying (laughing), and falling off my flipping chair!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I sent an email Amthrax to give you my email!
I heard they were going to have a conference call today Hmm… wonder if they watched the Youtube, Lmao!
OMG Will this is hilarious too!
team deception
keep an eye on your email, I sent one to Amthrax asking to give you my email so we can go from there.
This commenter requested that her comments be removed from this site.
This commenter requested that her comments be removed from this site.
webelieved
I have been going back over some posts, boy did I miss allot, and am sorry to those that may have felt others weren’t reading them.For me I see they were just being overlooked. We all must have been typing like were building the “team system business running dry and no fuel left,” no wonder we got so sick, busy, busy, busy! And to think they would throw that in leaders face you “gotta work smart, not busy,” “everyone’s busy, home to work, home to work” and then tell you are “insane” with the definition! Performance Cult, all I have read so far without a doubt, by what the experts say, not a doubt! So I guess I’ll keep reading and learning, hmm.. but I thought “all you loser’s just went to a non-productive, self-destructive lifestyle?” We could NOT with a clear conscience build this after the truth about them stealing people for their financial again, them greedy thieves, is there proof, well, well…..what do you think? That is what woke us up, finally, there was SOME PROOF OF THEIR REAL CHARACTER,NOT what they praise and worship themselves as! All the other stuff that your conscience and gut was telling you, you could never prove it because the snakes were very clever about trying to hide and cover their tracks, just as they are doing now, just my oppinion but I believe it is about to be completely exposed. Then what…..just like Will pointing out the bold-faced lies under oath and yet there are people who can’t SEE this and explain it away,..WHAT?? Do you think it possible for people to lie under oath? hmm… WOW, how do you live with yourself, obviously it’s not a problem, unless of course you begin to think about enternity?…..UNBELIEVABLE!
I agree Dorothy, it is just mindboggling isn’t it. Now do you think others might get something from you promoting such a book? Now you know where they learned it all. This has been going on for decades, the abuses are unbelievable and can you imagine over that time period, how many lives have been destroyed? Oh, it is sad. Please keep praying!
STY –
I’m guessing he’s not being promoted. I talked to him about his past (he does not know I was with TEAM) and he told me that he was doing multilevel marketing for a number of years, but got out because of the economy and politics. Never got a change to press him for more.
Jones Brothers
Mike & Carol Foos
&
Jody & Kathy Victor (can’t believe we forgot about them)
The list keeps growing.
Everyone else, please add to this list. There are more leaders who have bailed for good reasons and I am positive that this list will keep growing.
This may seem rather odd, but when I read about beardless leaders and red ties in that book, I realised that’s how it is in TEAM – there’s even red “team tie”s on TEAM’s logo gear store.
*sigh*
I think I’m freaking out :-s
New Topic: ***************NEWSFLASH**************
I had lunch with two Team Monavie members today and learned some SHOCKING news. They told me Monavie is starting a Second Company – beyond selling juice. A TOOL COMPANY. It will offer Team members an additional stream of income from speaking and selling tools. I’m sure we’ll hear all about it through Monavie University OR check out the Monavie on the Move website – Monavie is already pushing Orrin and Chris’s book!!! So it begins.
My opinion is that the World of Monavie is shrinking faster than it’s growing, especially with the economy and world events. It’s not hard to tell – “Monavie on the Move” website shows a weekly ‘Feild Recognition’ for the past 12-18 months. The growth is primarily in other countries outside of North America….
http://monaviemediacenter.com/recognition/rank-advancements/
Monavie probably looks at Team and notices the volume is more consistent than other organizations (due to Team’s systematic encroachment on Team members freedom to rationally think about what makes logical business sense, therefore promoting $300-1000 /month on juice to join the ‘Leaders’ circle), therefore Monavie needs to stop the shrinkage in the rest of North America by offering Monavie Distributors with a second source of income – cause the first is not enough – I’d sure like to see an Income Disclosure Statement on tools after its been implemented for a year.
Have you noticed all of the incentives Monavie is starting… “The Monavie Fast Track Promotion”… lol
Wow, this is interesting, thanks for posting UnKnown!
How do you think Team’s tools and their new Life Training will come into play? Or is Life Training going to be partnered up with Monavie corporate?
Unknown
Way to go! Where is I quit and Will, Fly and Webelieved on this!
Now it is going to be just like the old Amway/Quixtar Motivational?
Have they not learned anything from History?
Oh Boy, this shows to me how desperate they have become.
The Team taught you couldn’t me motivated, you had to be self-motivated, but told you, you needed more system to keep you motivated?? Seems confusing doesn’t it. NO not to them because this is where they make their MILLIONS!! There is Millions of dollars in NOT being able to “MOTIVATE” PEOPLE.
But as the CULT experts explain this as information control, indoctrination and is exactly how they put the strangle hold on your mind.
But oh since the TEAM NUMBERS have gone back so much and they can’t add them quick enough, this would be way more $$$$$ for Orrin and the Policy for getting paid on the whole entire people in MV (if this is where it is going?) they will have a way bigger PROFIT POT for the BIG guys! So hmm….Once again this should benefit their pockets in a way bigger way than they can earn on their own, just my thoughts, what do you think?
When Orrin filed the lawsuit in 2007 against Quixtar to try to break away from Amway and Q he pulled in a number of big level leaders from outside teams (Billy Florence, Randy Haugen – Team Legacy, Ron Simmons, Lance Smith, Chuck Goetschel, the Harteis brothers, Don Wilson, and Jody Victor I believe was also part of that group he tried to get to merge over.) Fred Harteis and Jodi Victor wised up and decided to stay with Amway (the lesser of two evils), so yes Jodi could still be with amway…..if that is the case. But just another example of a large level leader that got close to Orrin and then bolted. Orrin even called this guy a traitor at Triple 100 meetings (Round table and up etc.).
Unknown
The reply button was not under your post for some reason when I posted.
But to me it really doesn’t matter about all their shenanigan’s what concerns me the most is the indoctrination.
I find this rather exciting! history always repeats its self! Nothing is new under the sun. Pull up your lawn chairs, folks! there is ganna be a BBQ in MV back yard.
I agree, the indoctrination is an issue. Team is NOT Growing. MV has passed their window of opportunity, and clearly, people are bailing. If anything, I would presuppose that if MV were to pick up a motivational series, it may be O and CB. If your not familiar with these, they are very general. Actually pretty boring, I think. I enjoyed the indoctrination of the team cds much more than these. The leadership ones have some of the leaders doing “book Reports” on popular self help books and history, financial etc. They are not the rah rah suck it up cupcake ones.
If that were the case, Only Orrin and and Chris would reap the benefits and whoever the leadership company pays. Maybe round table?
Honestly, they are pretty lame. The leadership cd’s. He just copies all the other ones that are out there. Same ole stuff.
It is sad to see folks who claim to have an agenda that teaches conservative christian beliefs yet sells their sole to the Mormon agenda. Clearly in the big scheme of things, He sold out and will have to answer to a much higher Leader than He. Clearly He has no idea what he is up against or He really doesn’t care.
Strictly my very own opinion here, folks. Just expressing.
Al in good time, folks.
I just published a post in response to this rumor about MonaVie becoming a Tool Company. There’s a little smoke to this rumor:
I’ve set comment replies to be one level-deep. So, reply to the original comment to get it nested underneath the other replies.
The dam is breaking. The mortar between the crumbling bricks is falling out. Its being pushed out by the pressure of truth. Team is running out of fingers and toes to shove in the leaking holes.
WE NEED MORE APPENDAGES! FIND ME MORE APPENDAGES! WE NEED TO SAVE MORE PEOPLE FROM 95%VILLE! AFTER WE DO THAT WE CAN USE THEIR APPENDAGES! LETS HAVE A FILANGES-FEST! WHOEVER BRINGS THE MOST FILANGES TO THE PARTY GETS TO KISS THE RING!
Ahhh yes, I can hear it now…
Things are startin’ to swirl like the beginning of the flush cycle!!!
I Quit
How many times, you going to make me lmao, Thx!
Glad you are back!
NEW Team Challenge:
If you are a current / active team distributor, you need to print out this list of ‘Former Leaders’ who left the business and take it to your upline RT and PC member and ask them to give you their explanation on why these individuals left team.
Please report back here with your answers. Should be a good discussion.
When we bought Brady’s leadership book in Team, all of the profits went to charity. Does anyone know if that is still the case when MV sells it? My feeling is no, but I want to give them the benefit of the doubt.
From what I understand — and ex-TEAM people correct me if I’m wrong — only sales of the hardcover were sent to charity? I’m not so sure about the paperback and the subsequent revisions, not to mention the versions of LLR that are being sold through MonaVie corporate.
That makes sense. I have been out of the loop long enough to not have the seen the soft cover version. Except the soft cover I bought before the hard cover came out. Then, of course, I bought the hard cover. Which I bought again when it came out as the book of the month.
Is the MV version different than the original Team version?
TOD
On the sleve of the Hardback it says:
“The authors are making a donation equal to 100 percent of all the advances and royalties they receive for this edition to All Grace Outreach in Flint, Michigan.”
Do you know who runs the All Grace Outreach?
I will check on the softcover but I have heard this from stage that the hardback is the one they give the donation from. $23.99 US, 27.99 in Canada you can buy from the internet way cheaper new/used than these prices.
TOD
Softcover:
It does not say anywhere I can find about donation of this one. I was told Chris Brady owns this: and do you remember the bobble-head “obstacles” he was selling.”
Copyright 2005 by Obstacles Press, Inc.
First Edition May, 2005
Obstacles and Obstacles logo trademarks of Team Parnership, Inc.
Published by:
Obstacles Press, Inc.
PO Box 1109
Grand Blanc, MI 48439
Cover design and layout by Norm Williams
Comic illustrations by Sean Carton
ISBN: 0-9768645-0-9
Printed in the United States of America
http://www.leadershiprevolution.biz
The hardcover say:
Copyright 2005 by Chris Brady and Orrin Woodard
publisher
Business Plus
Hachette Book Group USA
237 Park Avenue
New Your, NY 10017
www. HachetteBookGroupUSA.com
Business Plus is an imprint of Grand Central Publishing
The Business Plus name and logo is a trademark of Hachette Book Group USA, inc.
Printed in the United States of America
First Business Plus Edition: September 2007
10 9 8 7 6 5
Library of Congress Cataloging-inPulication Data
Brady, Christopher
Launching a leadership revolution: masrering the five levels of influence/Chris Brady and Orrin Woodward-1st ed.
index blah, blah
Book design by Charles Sutherland
There you have it all (almost, except the blah blah!) and of course the rest of the “Leadership” stuff – good leadership stuff they took from others but in my oppinion and experience “mis-leader’s”!
http://www.allgraceoutreach.com/OurLeadership/tabid/328/Default.aspx
This link is to the so-called leadership page of the ‘All Grace Outreach’ charity.
Surprise surprise, that it is team PC members.
Oh softcover price $15.95 US
Just to clarify; I was told he (Chris Brady) owns the Obstacles Press, Inc.
My understanding is that the donation to charity was only for the 1st edition of the hardcover book that was released.
Does anyone know how many other editions there are? I would guess they did that as a promotion when they first launched the LLR as a hard cover, but they are not giving away 100% of the proceeds for every future edition. Their little marketing campaign was good at tricking people into believing that though.
Also, isn’t strange that Monavie is selling Orrin’s book when there are other leaders and Diamond groups affiliated with Monavie other than Orrin? Why aren’t they selling tools made by those groups?
I would bet anything that Orrin OWES Dallin Larsen money due to all of the lawsuits that Orrin was tangled up in against Amway. Amway is a billion dollar company and there is NO WAY that Orrin could afford to go up against them head to head in the court room as they would have bled him dry. However, Monavie is also a billion dollar company and could easily BANKROLL Orrin’s legal fees.
Anybody else catching the picture here?
It is very likely that Orrin is in DEBT to Mr. Larsen and by giving him his book to sell on his website that is one way that Orrin can SLOWLY pay off his debt by telling Dallin that he can keep profits from any books he sells on his site.
Anyone else have a better idea?
All Grace Outreach update:
http://www.allgraceoutreach.com
From the Allgrace Outreach website…
Who Benefits?
In following biblical principles, AGO prioritizes beneficiaries as:
1. Those who spread the Gospel of Jesus Chris throughout the world. (Matt 28:18-20)
2. Those who help widows (1Tim 5:3) and
3. Those who financially support orphans in need. (James 1:27)
Following these principles, the funds from AGO have been directed as 80% for spreading the Gospel, 10% to charities that help widows and 10% to the aid of orphans. Up to three times per year, the directors of AGO prayerfully go through a selection process to determine who meets those descriptions and will become the recipient of the funds for that term. To God be the glory!
From the NEWS page on All Grace Outreach:
January 30, 2011
Columbus, Ohio – AGO Welcomes Guest Speakers from the M.O.R.E. Project
AGO welcomed special guests Katy Holt-Larsen and Sergio Ponce from The MORE Project during an event on Sunday in Columbus, Ohio. “The M.O.R.E. Project is dedicated to changing lives and restoring families living in extreme poverty in Brazil. To the lives it touches, the MORE Project means more hope, more health, more caring and more love.” Chris Brady (AGO Supporter) shares a very touching and revealing conversation with Katy and Sergio about the harsh realities of life in parts of Brazil. The challenges facing the families, particularly the youth, of Brazil can be overwhelming. The efforts of MORE are focused on educating and improving the lives of those suffering and being lead astray by their culture. You are invited to listen to this very special talk by clicking on the link below. To learn more about the MORE Project, please visit http://www.themoreproject.org.
DOES ANYONE ELSE SEE THE DIS-CONNECT HERE?
They are proclaiming that AGO is a charity to support and spready the Gospel of Jesus Christ, yet on a Sunday (most likely after the Sunday morning church service) at a Team Major Convention, they allowed representatives from the M.O.R.E project to come on stage and pimp their charity to the audience.
Do you think all those in attendance know that their money that they are donating to so-called spread the Gospel is going to a charity that is spreading MORMONISM?
Food for thought.
Well, well… that sure makes you go hmm… on the charity, but just curious if they have 3rd party audits?
UPDATE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
This is directly from the ALLGRACEOUTREACH website on their NEWS page:
Friday March 11th
Ongoing Support from Orrin Woodward and Chris Brady
Orrin Woodward and Chris Brady, authors of Launching a Leadership Revolution, are making a donation equal to 100% of all the advances and royalties they receive for the original (first edition) book to All Grace Outreach in Flint, Michigan. Learn more about this book and the authors by visiting http://www.launchingaleadershiprevolution.com.
I GUESS THIS ANSWERS OUR QUESTION ABOUT THE DONATIONS FOR THEIR LLR BOOK
Will
LOL that also makes you go Hmm……, I do know Brig Hart just wrote a new book. Wonder if it will be sold there too? Brig also came from the “Yager” teachings, from a very young age (in early 20’s I believe) so many years of of the same ol’ same ol’ practices and methods of what I am gathering and reading from the experts in the field of Mind Control/ Thought Reform, indoctrination, by the way all the experts in this field that I have seen thus far with exception Lifton (I believe he studied the mind control techniques of the Koreans; haven’t had a chance to read enough there yet) but all the rest have EXPERIENCED the “cults” they speak and write about! They are not basing their knowlege on theory, and some many, many years very close to their “guru’s” and in the inner working’s of the deep secrets, etc..
PHARAOH, JUST LET THE PEOPLE GO! Leave people alone!
I don’t know much about TEAM. But I do know how the kingpins operate.
It looks as though Woodward donated all of the *royalties* from the hardcover to charity. Let’s say Woodward’s royalty rate is 10 percent of the wholesale cost of the book. The book retailed for $24, which mean the wholesale probably was around $14. He is probably donating $1.40 per book.
So…….you need to realize that the RETAIL markup on a $24 book would be about $10. So if Woodward is donating a ten percent royalty, based on the wholesale price of $14, then he is donating $1.40 to charity.
But what price did TEAM buy the book for from the publisher? TEAM is probably buying it for $12-$14. This means that TEAM COULD BE POCKETING NEARLY $10 per book!
(It would be interesting to see if TEAM people on this forum who made money from bsms could confirm that they made a tool profit from the sale of Woodward’s book, or if this book was excluded from tool profits. Maybe Woodward told the entire TEAM organization that there was no commission on his book. But if there were commissions being made on the sale of this book, then the retail profits on this book were MUCH LARGER than the royalties that were donated to charity.)
My point is this- The ten percent of wholesale royalties that were being donated to charity is a lot smaller figure than the retail profit that TEAM could have been making from the sale of his book. (An announcement that “I am giving away $1.40 per book” might help to hide the fact that TEAM is making $10 per book in retail profit.)
BTW, I don’t have any experience with TEAM so i can’t add a lot to this conversation. (but WOW does all this sound familiar!)
That’s if he donated the 10% to charity. In the past when diamond financials were exposed, there was very little given to charity.
MichMan
“Orrin Woodward and Chris Brady, authors of Launching a Leadership Revolution, are making a donation equal to 100% of all the advances and royalties they receive for the original (first edition) book to All Grace Outreach in Flint, Michigan. ”
Orrin, Chris or anyone else that I know of has ever told anyone how the profit-sharing works, we asked for the ‘profit-sharing contract’ THEY REFUSED TO GIVE US A COPY!
Although I have a question about what it says “making a donation EQUAL to 100% of all the advances and royalities??????
I would understand this as being ALL the donation from this edition (the 100%)?
I await the day when these “Diamonds” financials are EXPOSED!
That will be the celebration of a lifetime!
I wrote about All Grace Outreach in a post here. At the time, I found it to be fishy and speculated that there could be ulterior motives. Kevin T, the legal person for TEAM at the time, emailed me giving his word that no funny business was going on. So, I don’t know what to believe.
I would feel more comfortable if Allgrace wasn’t made up of all PC members. At least then there would be checks and balances. Do non-profits have to show their books? Then one could probably estimate sales of Brady’s leadership book and see if that amount was even close to the amount that Allgrace took in. Anyone know about charities?
When did Pastor Dickie leave TEAM? What about his son – wasn’t he CEO of TEAM at one time? What happened??
Insider, I don’t see TEAM Results listed on here. Results was headed by Renee Oettinger and Bob Rasmussen. Unless they are now kaput. That was the team I was on for 5 lousy BS years.RESULTS: Reaching Every Soul Utilizind Leadership Through System:)
I am still in Team Mona Vie and having some SERIOUS doubts that I will ever do more than make the person who tricked me into doing this $$$$ I however can say I like the product and would continue to drink it as long as I can manage to pay for it (yes its costly but a damn good product)I have checked into other groups also doing the Mona Vie thing but not Team associated so would I be better off dropping all my points earned and starting over under one of these other Mona Vie groups or should I just cut my ($thousands$) losses now and run?
Take a look at the JuiceScam web site. It uses facts and logic to show you how you’re getting ripped off not just by TEAM but also by the juice. $30-40/bottle is exorbitant vis-a-vis what you are getting.
Major Dave
You won’t see them added, yet anyway. Renee O. and Bob R. are still there and speaking for the team they are “all in”.
Sorry to hear bout your 5 lousy BS years, but I hear you on that one!
@whatresults. Do you as AMTHRAX suggests and check out the Juice Scam site. I also thought it was a “damn good product” so kept drinking it and telling others about it until I had a scientist friend of mine reveal the results of all of the studies on it to me. I found the JS site and it confirmed what my friend had told me. I then took it to a dietician and discovered this is just highly overpriced fruit juice. They are scamming you into thinking it is an amazing product so please do some further research. I am not saying that your “sponsor” did this knowingly because they were likely lied to as well.
You know that their own studies show that an ordinary apple contains more anti-oxidants then Monavie, right? Were you told that it contains 13 servings of fruit & veggies a day? Also false, 4 oz equals ONE serving of fruit a day. Check out the site or bring the juice to an independant expert yourself.
Good luck on your information journey and I hope we just saved you a lot of money and heartache!
Run, whatresults, I was in for seven months and got burnt – credit maxed out. And you know what? You have the RIGHT to research, and the RIGHT to say no, saying no does not make you a bad person. Researching makes you a responsible and sensible person.
TEAM uses a lot of pyschological techniques to run their business. They play on emotions, especially of those who are new and really want to succeed in life. That’s why when you were prospected, you were asked about what your dreams were, and were promised that you could succeed within 2-5 years.
The JuiceScam site is a comprehensive site that gives a lot of research from reputable sources, including the nitty gritty scientific stuff regarding the juice product. It is, in my opinion, well worth the time and effort to read.
Whatresults
I agree with humiliated and Izzy
The best thing to do is do the research. I think your instincts are right.
I don’t believe it is going to be different for you by leaving one to go into any of the other systems. I could explain why but, just follow your instincts.
I would also recommend some other things for you to read so you can start to see what it is you are really a part of.
How long have you been “plugged in” to the Team system?
whatresults
I understand your $thounsands$ worth of losses too, and not just the $$$, way more valuable things have been lost.
It was a heavty “educational” experience, way more than a college degree would have cost us and the (most important things) “TIME” away from our families and from our children’s childhood, and the loss and destruction of the “RELATIONSHIPS”. Too many to count.
My good friend (soon to be ex friend) if she continues with this crap is risking losing everything if she continues to get herself immerse in this craptastic cult. She will be here in edison nj attending another indoctrination session. I so hate these crooks! She has been trying to get me involved and won’t give up. She has this satanic-looking mentor with her at all times, who coaches her. If he wasnt so fugly looking, inwould think they are having an affair (excuse me whilevi go throw up). I pray that this cult disbands soon beforevit is too late for her
@friend, I can tell that you are very upset over this situation, and you have every reason to be so. I am wondering how you came to the knowledge of the fact that TEAM is a cult? I know they mask it pretty well in the beginning, as I have studied cults for years and they still got me in until my credit was maxed. It is very disturbing indeed.
The mentor is actually her upline, and TEAM members are instructed to only listen to their upline as well as the team leaders (ruby, emerald, and diamond levels) It will be very difficult to get through to your friend as any information that is contrary to TEAM teaching is considered negative and should be avoided. This is a mind-control technique called Thought Reform. I urge you to be patient with her and simply show her the truth and pray for her as well. Some people do snap out of it early.
Best of luck, we are definitely here to support you! ❤
Regards, Izzy
Friend of a cult member
If you have a desire to help your friend, do some research by going to Steve Hassan website Freedom of Mind or get his books from the library. There is also Rick Ross website.
I think you will find this very informative on how to help your friend.
Good luck, I know your friend doesn’t understand how “immersed in the craptastic cult” she looks to you or the outside world because she is doing what she is told and probably believes she is doing “noble things to better herself and others”, I too believed this for way too long.
Your choice of words made me laugh, I know you are frustrated and probably are thinking this is not too funny, but thanks for laugh.
Good luck.
I’ll make it easier for you
http://rickross.com (Rick Ross Institute, professional deprogrammer for various kinds of cults, including commercial cults like TEAM)
http://www.howcultswork.com (General overview of how cults operate and various kinds of cults, including commercial cults. Also discusses Mind Control)
http://www.culthelp.info (Resource site which includes a section on commercial cults, includes personal testimonies of Amway, another company that TEAM was involved in up until about five years ago. Has personal testimonies.
http://www.juicescam.com (Owner does extensive research on Monavie’s juice blends, also the owner of http://www.teamscam.com which is a sister site.)
@velizabrthwhite
How did I figure they were a cult? Not hard. They made no sense. I went to meet my friend at the hotel were their monthly meeting was being held so that we could catch up. She immediately brought over these people who were praising her for her effort at bringing people into the business. Since I had nothing better to do, I listened. As a finance person, I asked about her bottom-line and got the weirdest answers. None of which made sense. I asked the same question to the others and same nonsensical answers followed. I was like, oh shiit, this ain’t good. Better leave before they start to serve the koolaid. The belittled my college degree, my job as a modern slave, etc. She is not stupid, I pointed out that even if I knew nothing else, the fact that she has negative cash flows makes no business sense.
That is exactly the main problem. Who cares about juice? Or any other product for that matter. If people like it and want to pay for it, that’s fine. But the business is what is sold and that is why the bottom line has to be addressed. Give it 6 months or a year. Give it whatever realistic time frame you want, but at some point you have to have a positive cash flow. That’s just business. In the book Good to Great, Collins has a whole section on facing the brutal facts. I would urge people to just start looking at the facts of their business.
I’ve been out of the loop for a bit and was reading to catch up. Its great to see new people, both former biz victims and info seekers. We are performing our own public service! We ARE helping people! Isn’t that what we wanted when we joined up? Now we get to “Have fun, make money and make a difference!” DIE PONZI CULT, DIE!!!!!!!!!!!!
(And no Teambot boy I’m not referring to the individual. I’m referring to the Team biz model)
@webelived
I just had to revisit this quote from Orrin, since he and others like to read and visit this website, even though he quilt trips others and tries to control what others read and stay away from such “negative” people, even if they are telling the truth or even if they are your family.
This is just another hypocritical bunch of worthless words that mean nothing to those who know them. Just as, Will and all the others pointed out in their posts, it really is pretty clear.
*News Flash* what you call ‘resolution’, there is NO such thing! Unless of course others want to be under your dictatorship of how the ‘resolution’ should work, No thanks, I despise dictators. We know you wrote this to convince others on our teams (sending your typical deceptive messages); that it is what we didn’t do, even though some have personally admitted to us they see the unethical things, and they still continue to follow? They will have to answer for their own choices. And were told we deserted our teams and were raiding our downline (Lies, Lies, and more Lies) and all the other lies for you and your pawns to keep them captive for your idol $$. How do we know this? Because this is almost word for word what they regurgitated to us and others. You have blinded these people, good luck answering for that one. Your hypocrisy is incomprehensible.
It should be evident to you and all the others that need to snap out of it, by reading all the comments on how your ‘resolution’; DOESN’T WORK. We been there done that too many times with no resolution, just kept building, you are self-deceived and in denial.
The right thing?? Really, you obviously haven’t done the right thing, by a long shot! You have proven you and your policy cannot be trusted; without a doubt! Just read the posts! “Contract”, stealing profit-sharing from those who brought YOU millions of dollars for YOUR lifestyle to take care of YOUR family…. remember?
Honorable? Should never be used in the same sentence with your name, ever! You wouldn’t recognize the honorable thing if it slapped you in the face!
Anonymously, again read Will’s post; hiding their ‘real motives’, wasn’t YOU that said something to the effect, never judge another person’s motives, that you sometimes don’t even know your own motives??… hmm…Thought so! How does a person not know their own motives?
Assaulting the reputations of people, once again read posts on firsthand accounts of YOU doing just that, Oh and yea most of us DO know YOU and YOUR other pawns more than we would have ever cared to! Community of “leaders”, (my oppinion ~mis-leaders), to resolve issues, See Above.
I couldn’t agree more, except, “your company” is not reputable, so I guess it really doesn’t matter how well You Think your customer service is, they are also under your dictatorship!
One more thing, by telling others and Orrin, yourself expecting others to call you to ‘resolve’ anything, when you have wronged them, is insulting and a power trip you have put yourself on, whether you continue deceive yourself or not, doesn’t change anthing of what others believe.
It is all done to put the control of the conversation in your favor, get a clue we’ve read the same books… HELLO? We know how you manipulate, deceive, and twist words, just like I think your pawn whom came on here hiding ‘anonymously’, being a poser…Deceptive/ lie, hmm..?
Doesn’t it make you wonder why all the real leaders and staff members have left your “proven system” and office? There is one common denominator…,YOU. Where is the responsibility; hmm… what’s that??
I seriously cannot understand how those pretend, that know these truths, and they haven’t figured this out yet and done the RIGHT THING? I gave the intelligence of these mis-leaders way more credit than they deserved, Christian Values and Principles, I think not? To think, I believed they meant all that, I was even self-deceived until I could get “unplugged from the system”, completely and see clearly! How can they deny this, do business as usual, continue to lie, sweep it under the rug, and pretend? And if this doesn’t rip them up, then there is a way deeper problem.
Sounds like I maybe a tiny bit angry, NO I’m pissed, and it’s called righteous anger!
I will say, I am now FREE and am grateful for the grace!
“I know but one freedom, and that is the freedom of the mind”~ Antoine de St. Exupery
Editors Note: I added some blockquotes around Orrin’s quotes to make for easier reading.
AMTHRAX YOU ARE THE BEST, THANK YOU!
Speak Your Truth – WOW, great post. I loved how you broke down Orrin’s latest ramblings and showed how pathetic his words truly are. He is merely trying to give the image that he supports conflict resolution and that he would do the right thing if people confronted him with their grievances. I can say that I have “BEEN THERE DON THAT!!!” as well. 😉 The guy is a real piece of work.
Editor’s Note: This comment has its own separate page here now. Please post your replies there.
Dear Orrin,
Everyone knows Monavie is broken.
The numbers have been in decline for years now. Maybe that is why there has not been an updated income disclosure statement since 2009?
I have a question for you. Maybe a few.
First…
We all know you are looking to start a new business venture called L.I.F.E (Lies Inspiring Feeble Endeavors?). Yet, currently you are on stage promoting Monavie as the financial answer to all of their economic problems and Dallin Larsen as if he is the Messiah (mormon, mind you).
My question is this…
Where is the ethics in this?
I am sure you are promoting L.I.F.E to all of your leaders and counting the days this summer to when you launch your new business.
What about all of the current distributors that you are signing up and telling them to buy loads of product and tools for this business. Are they not wasting their money?
These people will be stuck with worthless tools as they were when you pulled this same TACTIC switching from Amway to Quixtar, Quixtar to Team of Destiny, Team of Destiny to Team and Team to Monavie.
SSDD.
Remember getting on stage in June 2007 and firing the crowd up about Quixtar (yes there were lots of new faces in the crowd that month)?
Remember telling those new faces that QUIXTAR was THEE business and that you were all going to a million people then?
Did you happen to tell those new faces that you were going to SUE Quixtar the next month in August of 2007?
Why not?
Isn’t that ethically wrong?
I feel like you are doing this all over again with Monavie, are you not?
Moving along….
You are the GRAND WIZARD, correct? The business, errr your business, is indeed built around YOU and not a product or company, right? That is after all the only way that your ego could take it, right? I mean, God forbid if someone tells YOU what to do. I mean….that is after all why YOU left Amway is it not? Because you could not stand being told what to do? You did not like their rules? I mean it seems so obvious now. You can make rules for everyone else but yourself. What makes you so special? Did you at least get permission from Chris Brady before suing Amway? I mean…we all know that he is the true brain child behind team. Not only does he have some what better looks than you, and let’s face it…WAY BETTER SPEAKING SKILLS and HUMOR than you, but he also more common sense and smarts than you, doesn’t he?
Back on topic…
Since you are starting a new LIFE training business, is it safe to say that Monavie is a sinking ship? You wouldn’t need to start a new venture if you guys were making money with Monavie, right?
Didn’t you do an in-depth bench marking study back in the winter of 2008 analyzing Monavie? I think you did. This is where you confirmed that Monavie was the best option for team and all distributors who left Amway? Yes, it was. That is really interesting.
You didn’t do a benchmarking study did you? You just looked at who was paying you the most cash to bring your business over to them, right?
Thought so.
….
Another question that comes to mind…
If you want to start the Life Training scam, why are you waiting till this summer to launch? Is it possible that you are still paying Dallin Larsen off since he was the one to bankroll your lawsuits with Amway? Isn’t that what happened? People are wondering why Dallin is selling you book ‘Launching a Leadership Revolution,’ so that he can keep the markup profit to help pay down your debt? So, you do owe Dallin Larsen money then? And everyone else in your business that is still building Monavie for a few months until the new LIFE business takes off is staying in just to pay down your debt? Do they know this? Seems like something you should tell your distributors. I would not want to be mis-lead like this. But wait…that is your specialty after all, right? Orrin Woodward the great mis-leader!?
Let’s go back to the lawsuit for a moment.
You were a small little thorn stuck up Amway’s…well, you were a pain anyways. But we all know that you could not afford to play with the REAL big boys in court. Amway would have destroyed you financially. So it is true that Monavie and Dallin was your sugar daddy during the law suits, right? It is starting to make sense now why you are partnered up with Monavie in the first place.
Let’s change topics.
How about Results?
Or your lack of results?
You are lacking results in Monavie, right?
Brigg Hart seems to be the real player and shining star in Monavie. How come you can’t keep up with the big boys?
From what I can tell, Brigg Hart is hitting bigger and better levels and you have stayed the same (or at least been faking it for a few years). We haven’t seen you hit any new levels and all you do is talk about others hitting results.
You went Black Diamond Presidential mumbo jumbo when you came over from Amway, but have you done anything since? All you did was prove that you could hit a level with your pre-established business. Has anyone in your downline gone Diamond organically (i.e – without bringing over numbers from a pre-established business)? Didn’t think so.
So, where are the results? How come Brigg Hart is kicking your butt? Don’t you want to be a BIG BOY and run with the big dogs?
How come you are camping out at black diamond? Are you a CAMPER?
Orrin is a CAMPER!!!! I knew it. Even a MANAGER. That is another good description for you.
Orrin the CAMPING MANAGER!!! haha This is great. And I thought you were going to a million.
Brigg Hart is a trekker and has a WAY BIGGER business. Crazy! I never thought you would be one to settle for less.
So, where are your results? Are you really a black diamond? Maybe you should come out on stage and tell people your true PIN. You are in fact an Emerald, are you not? If so, you should be up front with people and honest. It would not be good to lie and pretend to be something bigger than you are.
PRETENDER. lol
Orrin is a pretender.
No?
Prove me wrong.
So, where are your results? Still no results.
Maybe it is because you are only good at scamming people, right? You only have results at scamming people in an MLM. I have heard you tout on stage that you are some financial guru that has lots of extra cash to play in the ‘I’ quadrant and invest money. You brag of being the guy to come to for advice on what to do with your money when others reach your level so that they too can invest their cash in outside businesses….
….Question…
Name one outside success you have had in your life outside of Team/Monavie?
You can’t can you?
I have heard sooooooooo many FAILURES on your part and investments gone bad. You are the last guy I would trust with my money or ask for advice. You know why? Because I would never ask a CAMPING MANAGER for financial advice. PERIOD! Especially one who lacks the results.
Another topic for discussion.
Show me one person outside of the MLM industry that agrees that you are ranked #7 in the world as a ‘Top Leadership Guru.’ I would love to see who you find that believes this bundle of laughs. More like #7 in the world in Top Ranked ‘CAMPING MANAGERS.’ lol
Will, that is an excellent letter to send to Woodward, however, I don’t think he’d read it 😦 Some men are just pure evil, and refuse to change.
How is Woodward actually an emerald? Was he buying his Presidential black diamond pin? 😮
Hey Izzy,
I am not sure what pin level he is at. I am just an observer on the outside looking in and I have noticed that other big leaders like Brigg Hart are smoking him right now. Also, his business seems to be going backwards, but yet he will get on stage as if he is a whatever whatever diamond and I doubt he has maintained the same numbers since he made the change from Amway. Would be interesting to know his TRUE pin level for sure.
Will
Dang~I am speechless!
You have some great questions, that would be of interest to anyone going into business with the LIFE people.
We definitely know it is ALL about the Results, that’s for sure.
NOW~I cannot be serious anymore, I cannot stop laughing!!!!!!!!!!
“Camping Manager”~LOL, gotta love it!
Hey Orrin, What kind of marshmallows am I allowed to bring? We can roast em over the smoldering remains of your biz! Hee hee hoo hoo ha ha!!!!
I posted a separate post with Will’s original comment here:
Please post your follow-up responses on this post please. You have an opportunity to ask Orrin directly your questions.
Hey Will-
Remind me not to piss you off.
WOW!
webelieved
Yep that is what I was told by teamers too, pretty sad how they lie to keep people dishing their money out to them, isn’t it! GRRREEEEEEEEDY!
Hi, Izzy here, again, I’m not on here as much but I come back and read all your posts. I have one more experience to share with you and I’m totally kicking myself – why didn’t I wake up at this time? *sigh* Anyway, here goes…
Most of you regulars know that I’m on welfare – long-term disability for 3 disabilities. Okay, so us welfare recipients have to report income, no big deal, we do that on my husband’s part-time job. I wanted to know about MLM businesses and their policies, and made an appointment with my social worker and her supervisor. I also called my upline, who referred me to her upline, as he knew about welfare, and grew up on it. Fair enough, but I got this huuuuge major tirade from him telling me I was opening a Pandora’s Box and I shouldn’t have told my social worker that, because of the money I paid into the business, and I don’t have to report that, and so forth. I told him that I wanted to be on the safe side and make sure I was doing everything correctly. He reluctantly agreed to meet with us and discuss the financial aspect of the business.
So he blundered through the whole thing, ended up in a mini-argument with the supervisor, and she ended up kicking him out. Then she relaxed and told me what the deal was…as soon as I was making money, I was to list my expenses with receipts and all that, then my income, and that social assistance wasn’t going to deduct against any income that I was getting unless my expenses were less than my income. Simple as that. There was no Pandora’s Box, afterall.
As I said, I just don’t know why I didn’t quit then, I mean the upline guy was literally asking me to do something illegal, which could make me lose my welfare cheque. I wonder if there’s any other welfare recipients that has gone through something similar to me?
Izzy
Thanks for sharing, I love the “she ended up kicking him out.” That is what is so obvious, as hard as they try to get you to believe they are honest and pure the outside world doesn’t fall for their BS! They can only see ‘power, control & $$$$$$$$!
I do understand when you say you should have quit then. I had many times I knew my gut was right for a long time but it wasn’t so obvious with the ‘cold hard facts’ until they made the fatal error! I felt trapped because we Did Care about others!
I just went to my first couple open meetings, Spent $40 to hold my place? And now am contemplating spending time in this system but have some very serious concers. They constantly show the quadrant (I think this is what they call it) and say the place to be is making passive income with no time spent. But they call twice a week with meetings on weekends, Nighttime meetings and meetings at peoples homes and they always want me to go back to the open meetings to hear the same thing, how the system works. I know how the thing works already, generally, not with an concrete details though. Anyway, I am worrying about joining because no one can show me any real numbers. I keep asking to see paychecks, w-2’s and they kind of laugh it off and say they really dont talk about pay here? That is starting to worry me, If I am taking time from my family then I need to see some numbers, will they ever show me? My other issue is it is mathematically impossible to make more than a small percentage of peoples dreams come true with this set up, how do I sell that to my family and friends in full faith it will happen, They say it is not a pyramid scheme but from face value it looks like a hybrid of a pyramid scheme. I think after reading this back I have probably made my decision already, but what I want to see is if you have really made money in the system can someone reply and let me know why you quit? I have done some research on some “big hitters” in our area that speak at these meetings and one is losing their house and the other has the whole place believing they live in a much bigger home than they really are. I am giving both he benefit of the doubt but “if it walks like a duck?”
I think you’re on your way to answering your own question. These are serious concerns that you have. Approach them that if you are going to devote $500/month and at least 17-25% of your time each month to this venture, you need to see concrete evidence of profit potential.
There are MANY posts on this site that address your concerns. Start by looking at the Orrin Woodward and TEAM pages:
https://amthrax.wordpress.com/category/team/
https://amthrax.wordpress.com/tag/orrin-woodward/
Furthermore, many ex-TEAM members have been commenting on all of the recent posts. Look at what they have to say about why they left.
Worried~Amthrax has some good advice.
To answer your question, will they ever show their income, almost 100% certain, NO! They will continue to do what they already are and hope you just quit asking. Also read the post on here about the FTC guidelines are the information they are required to give you.
You will also find the reason some of us quit under Ex-Team, Would you have stayed, post.
I am happy to hear you are seeing the red flags, continue to read as Amthrax said, you will find out probably more than you ever cared to.
Good luck
I think “Worried” hears the REPO truck going bye those A$$HOLES’ homes!!!!
\****BEEP-BEEP!****/
I would actually get permission from that scammers neighbor that’s about to loose his home if you could pull up a lawn chair and watch from a distance as they drag out those belongings they used to brag about.
Thanks for the replies, I cancelled my Monavie account last Friday and disabled the Team website. This site definitely helped me to make my decision. The other thing that helped was getting my hands on a bottle of Monavie active, 13 servings per bottle, to follow their instructions would be about 5 bottles per person a month or $200. Definitely could not sell that in good faith to my friends and family. When I finally got some proof of income the day I cancelled I was shown an excel document with some pretty impressive numbers, I also have excel and can make excel spreadsheets:) Thanks to Amthrax for doing all the work on this site to give people a way to see the other side of the company. Back to the real world of trading hours for money!
You know, it’s jerks like you that prove that this is something good. If it wasn’t something good jealous idiots like yourself wouldn’t make up a bunch of stuff, use articles with unreliable sources and lie to people’s faces to make it look bad. Enjoy poverty sucker.
@person – would you care to be more specific, as the ex-TEAM members have been in their comments on this web site? What exactly have we made up and what lies do you attribute to us? It would be helpful for you to be specific in your complaints.
Person~
You calling people jerk, liars, and are ‘poverty suckers’. And what exactly do you know how people’ finances on here? Sounds like you are making things up and not providing any reliable sources to back up what you say. You are proving to be everything you are accusing others to be!
Does this ‘prove’ what you are doing is good, seems like a hypocrite to me? LOL You forgot to call people ‘haters, losers, and quitters.’ That is the standard defense, lol. Is this what you believe or ‘is how you are changing people’s lives and the world? Sure isn’t being too ‘happy or positive, shame, shame. ‘Isn’t that what you want others to believe you are, always positive and happy, the team is so different and those mis-leaders have so much emotional control?
Oh, that’s right you only treat people like ‘friends’ if they are potential prospects, and give all their money and time to the top of the pyramid, right? You think you are actually ‘making a difference’ when you come here to accuse and call people names? LOL
Ought to THINK about that one, because your’ negative’ message doesn’t change a thing about what we know or what we experienced.
I think you just created a contradiction; by you coming here with the same old rhetoric calling others names, is a true testament to how you treat others so you must be faking it when you try and make people believe you are so happy and positive all the time, right? Did you forget NO NEGATIVE?
The jealousy statement has got to be the most absurd and just makes me laugh. So pass that along to the rest of your delusional cronies. You are either delusional or haven’t read a single post on here. Would you be ‘jealous’ of people who have stolen, cheated, and’ lied right to peoples faces’, destructed others teams, took their earned income based on slander, lies and paranoia? We have been by those who you are choosing to defend? So sorry you are wrong, there is no jealousy here! Here’s an example to show how stupid that statement is: Are you jealous of Bernie Madoff?
Why don’t you address the real issues and corruption that people have experienced? We already know you won’t be back to do that, LOL
Might want to take your ‘masters’ advice and read his tweets about those he calls cowards. We will see if you have the guts to address the real issues or will you be just like your clones and think ‘I told them.’ LOL
Hey person- Care to share which book of the top five you learned your conversation style from? I obviously missed something when I read them…
Person,…..do you tell everyone in life that?……. “Enjoy poverty sucker.”…….?
Oh, I get it…..just the ones who aren’t on team or have left because of seeing the light.
Is that truly the mindset that they have now? Everyone’s living in poverty if you aren’t on team?
I must have missed something from the LIFE coach here.
And yet another drive-by moron pummeled into silence. Its TOO easy.
The ‘beep, beep’~hilarious! No wonder why there is so much ‘rehersal’, practice (functions & cd listening), it’s called ‘repeat after me’ and once you have that down, you are considered a ‘Leaaaddeeerrrr!
If they only knew how silly they really look repeating the exact things we already know is their standard, stop-thinking, guilt bullsh*it that does NOT work, they will have to THINK outside of the box! There so called ‘proven’ system is not working very well on us! 🙂
Webelieved~
I can only think of 2 that came back Rykel & Ry-Ry and Ry-Ry’s mission he admitted was to come on here to piss people off so he could call them ‘haters’~ “prove his point” or so he thought, (somewhat paraphrased). Lmao!
I guess if he Thinks people are ‘haters’, that justifies in his twisted thinking; ripping people off with his scam is ok then, lying, cheating, stealing and deceiving and all the other unethical things? It just seems so confusing. LOL
So he really didn’t care about us after all, hmm… darn, I thought they were ‘Honest, Christians’?
Oh that’s right he said he wasn’t ‘in the business’ he was just attending the majors, but not on system, just came here to save us…right… we know everyone does that! ~LOL
Rykel not sure about, maybe he realized he couldn’t just say ‘whatever’ … lol~ I guess they decided to become QUITTERS! Hmm….. possibly losers or maybe cowards too?
Not sure, it just all seems so confusing when they say one thing and do another. 😉
This commenter requested that her comments be removed from this site.
Dorothy~
I am definitely with you, on that old worn out lie!
It still raises my bloodpressure!
Our experience has been they led us to a bunch of lies, we fell for it, repeated it, and our sorry for it. Until one day we were blessed with being led to the see the ‘real’ and painful ‘truth’ and our eyes were completely opened!
Webelieved~
Yep you are right it is sad that they are part of a corrupted illegal scam and don’t even know it until the heap of debt takes over, their families and friends are divided, they have shunned all the family and friends they used to have. Something has to wake them up from the brainwashed slumber. Then they will have to make a choice. Or they may recognize the very subtle lies and deception their upline tells them, like the fake recognition, they repeat without question to build the business by lying and recruiting deceptively, or God help them if they have to experience what we did before the ‘light’ comes on to See the truth and the angony of regret and remorse shocks them and hits them like a Mac Truck.
It still amazes me they use so many deceptive, cult tactics and they create such a distraction, their double standards, mixed message, and fake friendships and ‘I love ya man’, love bombing, that it is blinding and confusing to 99% of the people! The top know exactly what they are doing to these people to get them to hand them their money!
They really don’t have a clue what has hit them; they just think it is the answer to all of life’s challenges. They can’t believe they have found the most positive people on the planet who are going to help them become a millionare!
But in the end, when you have to face the horror of being blinded and hurting, deceiving and lying to others and you realize it creates, idolatry, materialism, false use of the Bible, and they won’t have a shred of critical thinking capacity left and will have to regain that themselves. And the won’t be a millionare not even close, haven’t made a dime only created mounds full of debt or worse.
They will join us in helping others too.
Some very in-depth info here Speak, well said.
I’m wondering if any of the diamonds have come to the realization what they’re actually doing but are in denial? Spreading illegal claims from one to the other within their teams to make a profit and at the same time sliding in their “inspirational tool scheme” to sign them up on system behind the scenes for another source of profit.
Funny how they give you the scowls/glares in public but like Speak says, they haven’t got the slightest clue what hit them.
Switch~
That is a question I have often wondered myself. Denial, delusional, and or brainwashed themselves or just cons who figured out it is a way to make millions off of others? I think it is all of the above! It is an illusion and nothing but a mind game, getting wrapped up in the ‘positive thinking/ no negative’, ‘you get what you picture’, all it takes is ‘belief’!
If all it takes is ‘belief’? Buying some ‘product’ from yourself, and sharing it to that ‘magical’ 15x per month, for 2-5 yrs, then EVERYONE of the big leaders I know would have been millionaires in Amway before they even got to MV! THAT IS A LIE!
They ‘sell’ you on ‘it’s passive, residual income, another LIE’ you are helping people change even area of your life’, every speaker repeats( with emotions) it SAVES & BETTERS ‘The 8 F’s’, ‘you just have to SACRIFICE your 8 F’s for 2-5 years’(or decades)and if you aren’t a millionaire by 2-5 years, then there is ‘something’ wrong with you!
But the truth is, it creates, failure in all the 8 F’s for over 99% of the people! ‘You DON’T have to sell anything, just buy from yourself’ (illegal according to law) and then in the same sentence tell you ‘everyone’ is a salesman’s and uses their cheesy, you had to ‘sell’ yourself to get your spouse to marry you? Mixed Messages and intentional MIND GAMES!
Newbie is walked into the brainwashing/lie, when cd after speaker repeats all those ‘If it wasn’t for the Team’; saving my life, marriage, finances, we spend all our time with our children vs sending them to daycare for someone else to raise, ‘see we are living proof, we even have bible studies!’ But they FAIL TO tell the whole story that you have to deceive, lie and con people to get it and chances you EVER making it are slim to none! After hearing the repeated indoctrinated quotes and speeches (a million times), your mind quits thinking and breaks down, goes on auto ‘positive-delusional /what if mode’ or turns on itself.
It must be true, I’m just not believing /listening/reading enough or too negative, ‘they said it and they ‘walk on water’(Orrin says he does in his subtle way, everyone else says he does and worships him, must be me?) and he is called a guru, even though we voted for him to get that bs status, they stay home with their kids, pay cash for everything, live in mansions, have a yacht, read the bible! You are blinded and brainwashed, don’t realize it was YOUR (99% of the people on the Teams) MONEY that bought THEIR LIFESTYLES, that convinced you! You too can steal from others and have what we have!
Do You get your time back, quite the contrary; you spend all your precious time, away from your loved ones, to lose money! Aren’t you building 5-6 nights a week for 2-5 years?
But your mind goes in to ‘dream mode’ and you begin to believe the people of this lie yourself.
It all ‘SOUNDS’ (intetionally created) so good and they are soooo nice, and at the same time (newbie becomes seasoned & trapped) feels so surreal and we can reach utopia too, and the trap begins! You become ‘fully vested’- Way over your head in cc debt, spent way more than you make and ‘have to recoup it’, ‘I’m sooo close…. Somehow we will make it, delusional? All the while they are sending more mixed messages ‘live within your means/invest all you have in the system? YOU will never make it, it is a perpetual fraudlent scam designed to fail! But keep believing YOU MIGHT be that 1%, just don’t look at the facts that NO ONE has moved on and Don’t LOOK at the MAJORITY who QUIT that you have to replace, we can’t have you realizing the TRUTH!
Ever wonder why the ‘conventions’ make you feel like crap after you have gone a million times and nothing changes, you don’t ‘feel’ motivated when you get home? Because motivation is HYPE & only temporary and does not build your business, it just keeps you believing in the false hope!
It is NOT that complicated to sell a product!
But they will tell you we don’t sell anyway,we buy from ourselves and get it free, it is an ‘investment’!
IT pays for OUR/PC material lifestyle, but you will have to break the law, go broke, and make illegal claims! Don’t worry though, we are ‘Christians’, we have been doing this with Amway for a decade and half with and now MV! Our ‘proven scam’, we have proven it by losing a law suit for millions to Amway, because they are the ‘illegal pyramid’, not us although we have no end users either, we were the hero’s in that fiasco don’t you know what WE did for YOU! But hey, thanks to all of you broke souls that donated to our LEGAL fund, just don’t ask questions, ‘just share your story of the miraculous product’ we really don’t care for those products, well we say we do but we LIE, we have NEVER been about products anyway, and it is way OVERPRICED just like we believed with Amway,we know that but how else we going to cover-up our real money making illegal pyramid scam if we don’t ‘sell’ you on this deal?
It pays US/ Policy Counsel a lot of money so YOU keep inventory loading (breaking more rules) for us so we can SHOW YOU it really works,!
Yes, you will have to go broke but never mind that you will get ‘your dreams’, and be around like minded people who care, and it really is about the ‘cause’, you are selfish if you’re in it to make money, it is only suppose to make us money –NOT YOU, silly what ever gave you that idea?
WE will invite you to our mansions IF you EARN it, and you can gather around me, listen to my ‘guru teaching’ like the folks did with David Koresh, and you can PAY your own WAY to hear such Solomon’s wisdom, it’s about servant leadership!
I am the LEADER to be served!
So, IF it is the ‘delusional cult indoctrinated-system’ that makes you a success , as they lie and say it does, then why do they have to be so parasitic with a ‘product company’ and can’t make it without one?
When you know you have ‘rotated the pattern’ a million times and still aren’t millionaires? Then REALITY shows up, by this point you are seeing subtle lies, know you are going broke, you are figuring out they aren’t as ‘nice and positive’ (call others names behind their backs) and they talk about the bible and seem so GENUINE on the surface! You may even be getting some results because you honed your conning skills.
So you will have to keep entering DR. PARNSSUS IMAGINARIUM that you just can’t miss out on paying a grand 4 times a year (Conventions) where you become delusional; ‘fired-up’ and high on the HYPED motivation and get your FALSE belief/ teaching, faked/boughten recognition!
The vicious cycle perpetuates, where most people question ‘what is wrong with me, what ‘secret’ am I missing, I must need to go to my guru more, where he won’t tell me any secrets but stroke your ego and ‘keep doing what you are doing’!
Then you say;That’s it! I’m going do this! Going listen to a THOUSAND more cd’s and STP it to everything with a pulse! And the lie continues……..
When it’s NOT YOU at all, it is corrupted by design, a fraud carried out by skilled cons, for the 99% to fail, so the TOP can become Rich off YOUR efforts and OWN YOU and YOUR MIND through the process of the lie!
MOST people aren’t willing to make a bid with the devil and ‘sell’ their soul’; just like Dr. Parnassus did so they QUIT!
Webelieved~
Yes sure is funny; just ‘leading people to the truth,’ too bad some persons don’t recognize it.
It is as you said what other motive would we have, NO ONE is paying us, we Aren’t on here prospecting or looking for a sponsor, LOL and we are definitely NOT jealous!
No one in their right mind would be jealous of people who have to con, lie, decieve and steal from others to make money!
Just ‘fired up’ about ‘leading people to the truth, today’ sorry for the long posts!
Enough is Enough!
Webelieved
And we aren’t a part of any competing MLM or deceptively recruiting others in a scam either! Never again, how can anyone, when they know they create 99% who lose!
If we think we need to ‘get motivated’, we just spend quality time with our true family and friends and or spend some time gardening, reading, studing, helping others in need, where ‘motivation’ comes natural and not forced and fake! It is amazing how that works, you don’t need someone 24/7 telling you how to live your life!
That would be a dictatorship, nobody wants that!
We have freedom of our mind, make our own financial decisions and do what we believe is ‘success’, without the undue influence/brainwashing and will hang out with normal, sane friends that aren’t cons and after your every penny, that don’t demand you to sit around them like good little cult followers and worship them; where they plan your life out to serve themselves or you have to Earn your way to their house or ours, Friends just don’t do that! Or all the other garbage that sucks every waking moment, puts you in financial straits, that strains peoples marriages and relationships or worse, that is the Team’s way of l.i.f.e, including how you think! No? Take notes and be an observer, listen to others who are telling you the truth on your team! Check your own financial and business status! Brutal Reality?
Now, We have true Freedom!
Just for the record Speak, I don’t think your posts are too long. I really enjoy reading them. As a matter of fact, every single person that’s helped contribute to the blogs have helped shed the truth. So, not to worry. I say, let it FLY!
How can one argue/hide the truth when it’s right in front of them? And what a shame that they put $$$$ first and not their friends and immediate family. (Go ahead, sit back and laugh your sorry @$$ off at this….I know you are.) It’s all the name of the game isn’t it? Who’s laughin’ now?
As the “cat pouncing on the dead mouse” is a good way of looking at it, I think I’ll also stick with the pitbulls inside that chain-linked backyard growing stronger and stronger everyday and saving that hopeless little chew toy for a rainy day.
\
DOWN BOY!…DOWN!
Switch~
Lmao! They ‘preach’ the order of priorities but don’t live them, there is no way someone can be gone 5-6-7 days a\per week if not physical for sure mental, phone calls, etc so 7 days for the builders and they know it, for 2-5 years! But the number 1 priority IS to con people for the illegitmate scam, and we KNOW that is their REAL priority. Just more deception and lies.
Speak the truth….
Well said.. The deeper you get into the dream and farther into debt. The more your mind starts telling you continue the hard work is worth it. The feeling of desperation makes you feel more needy and dependent on the TEAM. The misery of not moving forward in your business creates a need to associate with like minded miserable people. MISERY LOVES COMPANY aka(TEAM MONTHLY SEMINARS AND MAJORS.
Webelived~
So true, less is more!
Chasing their idol $$, breeds the greed! They also give the mixed messages on that one too! Flaunting their ‘possessions’ and telling their income, every chance they get to entice people, then say they AREN”T in it for the $$!! I look forward to the day the greed and all that they did to others in the registration and all the other things to come back around 100 fold and they have to face the consequences!
It is nice to really live your priorities instead of lying to others that you are, when you’re NOT!
You are right they criticize and make fun of everyone ‘outside’ of the cult, anything that is not of them, then tell others to not criticize, condemn, or complain. That’s what they and their blinded cult followers do, just read their posts!
It is so blatantly obvious now, why they do what they do!
Amazing some ‘person’ would come on here and call people, ‘poverty suckers’,’ idiot, liars, jerks’, when that is exactly what their l.i.f.e. changing system creates!!! Along with the idolatry, hypocrisy, and the need for greed that you and others pointed out!
bogart~
You summed it up with that, it creates DEPENDENCY which Pays them millions!
And that is exactly what they want their system to do! Just like a drug addiction!
What a similiarity~
Webelived~
Oh how accurate your post. They do turn you into a performance slave!
Thought they were about FREEDOM? Something just doesn’t add up here!
First off thank you to everyone for posting your comments regarding TEAM, it re-enforced what I already believed and that is that I want nothing to do with TEAM or their snake oil fruit juice. Below is my personal story of how I cam to know about TEAM and the product they hawk that has led me to do my own on-line research.
My best friend of almost 20 years became involved in TEAM about a year ago and since then I have noticed quite a few changes in him, none of them positive.
It began with him beginning to constantly quote these “leadership” sayings and acronyms that he receives via text and twitter.
He treats his children as if they are a burden and frequently tells his teenage daughter she has failed a something if she doesn’t apply the TEAM principles that he is always quoting. He treats his wife as if she is a nuesance and tells her his lack of success is because of her lack of faith.
He started really bad mouthing his own Pastor and saying what a terrible leader he is and that he was learning leadership from some “guru’s” who could teach him a thing or two.
He has begun distancing himself from those of us who were once his friends and church family. He rarely comes to church anymore because he “sick” but has never missed a TEAM meeting or event. I, his best friend, haven’t talked to him, up until this last weekend, for almost 2 months.
We sat and talked during an anniversary party this past weekend he was telling me that he was done with all negativity in his life, then proceeded to tell me how stupid the party was and it was a waste of time and that he could be doing something much better with his time. (Very positive stuff). He then (after a little leading conversation on my part) told me that TEAM teaches that contact with anyone who isn’t “on board with community building” should be severly limited.
I then asked him what is TEAM. He broke out his “first day” packet of materials which consisted of 2 CDs and a propaganda book. He then got out his cheat sheet and began giving me the sales pitch for joining TEAM. During the conversation I stopped him and asked him to just explain it to me as his best friend not a recruit. He said he couldn’t talk about it any other way. He told me about the cash flow quadrant, which I was already familiar with, and then asked me about my “want circle” and tried to sell me on how much money I could make but that the money was secondary to building a community and bringing real leadership back to America through the teachings of Orrin Woodward.
I then asked how one makes money with TEAM and all he would say is by building community and using my own products. I pressed him and asked what TEAM sold and he said they sell nothing they only use their own juice products and build communities.
Now, I would like to stop here for a second and explain that my education is in accounting and for the life of me I couldn’t figure out how someone makes money by only buying products they sell to themselves, a person pays for the juice they drink, now mathmatically the juice company would have to send a person a commission check for an amount greater than what that person spent on the juice for them to make money by only using their own product. If I am incorrect please someone explain it to me.
To make a long story a little less long he finished his presentation and invited me to a meeting the following Tuesday. I began my exploration into TEAM, Orrin Woodward and Chris Brady that same evening.
I contend that TEAM is a scam, they sell people on the dream of being a buisness owner and not being an employee but, when you buy the juice product and use it the proceeds go up the line, when you recruit others their sign up fees and CD/Book purchase money goes up the line until you start your “second leg” and obtain a specific number of recruits (community) then you get a percentage but most of the money still goes up the line. The simple fact is you are still working for someone else, except that you are now working straight commission and you have to spend a lot of money on a consistent basis with a comparitively low ROI (Return on Investment).
@Not That Team:
Welcome to the discussion. It’s great that you’re able to see through the smoke and mirrors of TEAM and MonaVie. I wish I could tell you that one thing that would make your best friend wake up and realize that he’s been hoodwinked, but I can’t. The TEAM brainflushing (as they call it) is very powerful, and it takes a lot of time, money lost, and relationships broken, to break through. Perhaps some of the ex-TEAM members can offer suggestions on how they might approach the situation. It’s delicate, because there’s his family and your friendship to consider. Best of luck in getting him to see the light! Read the rest of the posts on the TEAM or Orrin Woodward category/tag pages for more detail.
Not That Team~
Amthrax has shared some real truth with you. I am sorry you have to experience this from your friend of 20 YEARS! I am speechless at how well you have seen through the smoke and mirrors too and have described exactly what happens to someone to is ‘sold out compelety on the team.
Your story concerning your friend says it all, matches to a tee how they change a person’s beliefs and personality.Reading it, makes my heart ache for you and what you must be seeing as that isn’t the friend you had. The good news though is once he get’s out he can get back to the normal person he was, probably not without a lot of pain though. I hope the cult experts read your post because it is CLASSIC,to what happens to someone on the team. Have you pointed out to him what and how you see his family being treated and the way he bashes his Pastor, how is this good ‘leadership’?
He has fallen for the ‘team’ propaganda. No one else has their ‘superior knowledge’ and is the only way to become ‘successful’ using their information. The most heart wretching to read was the way he is berating his daughter and wife.. This shows what a disgrace their indoctrinating (cult) ‘leadership ‘teaching’s’ do to others.
One would only have to read your post and see exactly what happens to a person when they start to be indoctrinated with the ‘team’ system. The acroynms, tweets & text, and cd’s and repeating exactly what he hears.
This is such a classic example of the ‘us vs them’ , anything outside the cult is bad and they are the one’s who are good and have the only ‘true’ knowledge.Cults use this to get them to be dependent on the ‘guru’s teachings’ and strips of persons critical thinking. You seem very onto the scheme of what is happening. I would read what ever you can on mind control, brainwashing, if you want to understand more of what is happening to your friend. I am not sure what you are willing to do to help, but there is tons of resources. There are a couple of links on here too:
Merchants of Deception free e-book link, is a true story, and is a real look at what happens to someone who becomes indoctrinated by the very system your friend is involved with. The orignial system came from Amway/Dexter Yager and Orrin Woodward just copied that and calls it his. Orrin was in Amway for probably a decade and half, then left their with a trail of lawsuits and eventually he was countersuied by Amway and lost for millions of dollars. You can find this on the web.
Also Robert J. Lifton wrote a book on mind control, Margaret Singer also a book..
The Freedom of Mind link is on here too and Steve Hassan wrote 2 books, the website is great source too.
Then There is Rick Ross, and some of us just watched the video “THE WAVE” which you will get an idea of what we are talking about, it is worth watching. Also his website is chuck full of information and recommended books.
All those experts are great sources to learn from, with websites and books and will be helpful to you.
As far as those of us here, many of us have had (collectively) decades of experience with these ‘guru’s’ and the Team and some of us spent years around Orrin and other PC and know everyhing you are seeing is exactly what happens and everyone on here has have many regrets to participating. We know the corruption and how these mis-leaders opperate..
Just a little more history if you want to do more research;they have changed their name many times (another sign of cult) to avoid any ‘negative’ truthful press. They were the Team of Destiny orignially with Amway/Quixtar/Amway, then the Team, now with Monavie and now are saying they are L.I.F.E coaching and no one is 100% sure of the new scheme. But speaking from experience they are pretty predicable, may not have all the details but nothing is changed they are still selling their system at that is all that has ever matter because it means Multimillions of dollars for the PC or those 5 or 6 at the top. Another article you can link to from here is the Forbes article about Orrin Woodwards Pyramid, where they pretty much spelled it out..
Sorry for the long post, I really feel for you, and your friends family. There are thousands of comments on this blog from those who unfortunately have been there. Also juicescams blog is a great resource. 🙂 Really sorry don’t mean to overwhelm you with so much just want you to know there is lots of resources about how this isn’t affecting (in a negavtive way) many many thousands of people.
We will be of any support we can and I know I can speak for everyone on because that is why we are here. Good luck 🙂
Sorry meant to say it is affecting and has tens of thousands in a negative way! If any of us can help you we will.
Not that Team~
“I then asked how one makes money with TEAM and all he would say is by building community and using my own products. I pressed him and asked what TEAM sold and he said they sell nothing they only use their own juice products and build communities.”
That is a bold-faced lie, whether your friend knows it or not. The Team makes multi-millions of dollars off of the cd’s, books, men’s & women’s leaderships meetings, Tue. open’s, major leadership conventions and seminars (this is called the system).They have always paid AT LEAST 2-3 times more than the ‘product’ company pays and they are 2 seperate business’.
Forbes article explains this.
All the ‘system’ money goes into the TEAM ‘profit-sharing pot’ where they divie it up by a formula, that Orrin came up with and will Not reveal to those who draw from it.
So basically no one really knows how they ‘figure’ the pay.
This is where they are NO DIFFERENT than what they tried suing Amway for saying they were a Pyramid Scheme because their were no REAL customers and prices were too high!
Well, hate to tell you that is how their profit-sharing works too! There is very few in comparison to (used to be) ten’s of thousands to those who actually get paid from their profit-sharing. Everyone else that is NOT in profit-sharing pays for the lifestyles of the TOP-Orrin & PC; 5 or 6 and a few round table members. Orrin knows he is walking a thin line and skirting the law; but life has a way of catching up! He has been opperating, now HIS/ profit-sharing scam since 1999 when he broke off from the Yager system in Amway.
People who speak at seminars, majors and open’s, also get paid from the profit-sharing, in all these venues except Men’s & Womens’ leadership, no one but Orrin and maybe PC knows where that money goes either. These guys are corrupt and have a lot of ‘hidden’ things and hidden agenda. They scream transperancy and are the farthest thing from it!
Your friend is a classical example of what they say and what they ‘preach’. And how ‘positive’ they really are.
When you read on here about others, including ours; profit-sharing and customers were stolen and given to our ‘upline’ this is what we are talking about. It is from the TEAM profit-sharing that it was stolen. Should be called profit-stealing. 🙂 They also refused to give us the contracts they made us sign to get paid from their profit-sharing. Just the endless bottom recruits, giving their money to the TOP! Hope this answers your question on how they DON’T sell anything or the money is SECONDARY that your friend told you!
Just more lies. Sounds like your friend is to and naive to know this but then maybe not he has the cult speak down pretty good?
Monavie is totally seperate and has a completely different pay plan, which over 99% never make a dime of profit in that either, not to mention the attrition rate is close to 100%!
There have been many blog posts on people sharing how they tell everyone that EVERYTHING is a write-off and an explanation of that. This is true that they tell you everything is a business exspense, even though they know 99% never make a ROI, year after year.
Best Wishes and hope that answers the MONEY question! 🙂
BTW AMTHRAX-Love what you did with the new post! 🙂
lol you sound like you are just venting……EVERYTHING you complain against in this post is EVERYTHING EVERY success book teaches on how to be successful, not just what leaders in the business teach. You just got burnt out and threw in the towel. Don’t hate…..
Bradly
`just another dry-by who defends the cultish bs. Does every success book teach you to steal others profit-sharing,teams, and persoanls, false advertise, lie, steal, and cheat and use decpetive endless recruiting technique? Sorry, we didn’t get that memo did Bernie Madoff write that playbook or was it O? We didn’t get that one. Perhaps you could share with us those ‘success’ principles you are referring to? You don’t have one flippin clue about what we did.
So come back when you have something important to tell us.
I was a part of the TOD around the time Quixtar first started out. I haven’t had anything to do with the organization or the subsequent TEAM since around 2002 and just came across this blog after doing a search out of curiosity on the TOD. I did not expect to find all this information, however it did not surprise me. I walked away wondering what was really going on there and after reading up on everything that went down, I’m kind of sad. These answers make sense with the memories in my head, things I saw, heard and overheard.
Orrin and Chris absolutely let us know that the TOD was not Amway or even Quixtar; they often said that their system could be used for any product, but the great thing about Amway was that it had everyday basic items that you were going to buy anyway. Now I see they are peddling some miracle elixir and still making millions so I guess they were not lying about the system being what brought the money. Back then I just didn’t realize how literal they were since they always talked about money coming from product revenues if they did talk about it at all.
In my case I left not beacuse I felt ripped off, but because I didn’t fit their idea of a “leader,” which meant a conservative christian egotistical white guy who pretended to be humble. By their standards, being a woman meant my place on the team was supporting my husband which I didn’t have so the next best thing I could do was buy make-up. I also felt their positive encouragement was negated by all of the condescending “well if it’s not working, then you aren’t working hard enough” rhetoric: “Sorry you missed the power player party at our mansion by 1 person, even though you were the one running around getting people signed up for your upline, they are such good leaders.” In addition I did not share the same types of dreams. I really didn’t care about having a Mercedes or flying around in a private jet to elaborate resorts where poor people from other countries served me virgin cocktails. After feeling slighted one too many times I decided my reason for leaving was because I just didn’t share their values and walked away with no hard feelings.
Perhaps the real reason I feel sad now is that whenever I was at Woodward’s or others’ houses, I felt welcomed and loved, genuinely, and maybe I stuck around for that, since I was lacking those things in my other relationships. The TOD did help me see that my relationships with people were not good and thinking positively could help me in that arena. Ultimately though I realized I could get the help I needed for that a lot cheaper, from more qualified people, and without the guilt trip for not bringing enough people to their functions. After all this time I can’t help but now see Orrin’s vision as predatory, sucking money out of people who need real friends and support, not a spot on a yacht or an island, and it hurts my heart. Even at this moment I don’t like seeing the words “Orrin” and “predatory” in the same sentence; I feel something inside of me searching for another interpretation based on my knowledge such as “he’s no shadier than most salesmen who make you feel like you cannot live or be a good person without this thing.” That’s still not a great opinion but either way I never wanted to believe that about him.
They were right about a college degree not being the best medium for making money, however my education has taught me to think critically which is my most valuable “tool,” something the TOD’s system didn’t offer (“it doesn’t need to make sense, just do what we say… etc”).
I’m happy to say that I have since walked many beaches of the world and never had to join a club. It cost nowhere near a million dollars to do so.
Cali lady~ Thanks for sharing that, and it is great to hear to have walked many beaches of the world and never had to join a club. There are thousands of comments on here that would give you a very clear picture of how many were decieved, stolen from, lied to and slandered. It has been a long time ago as you know from the TOD, then they changed their name to TEAM (more generic specifically done so others wouldn’t find the truth about what was on the internet) now again they are pulling the same stunt as you may read, they are changing it to L.I.F.E.( living intentionally for excellence) but same story very generic on the search engines and you can see there is way more specific truth about them on the internet now. It is promising to know you have moved on.
Yes I have been reading disturbing stuff all over and hindsight is 20/20 but it’s all making sense years later. I wonder now what happened to the ones (which ones?) who were making a lot and decided to part ways, and I’m sure there were Platinums who were just plain screwed out of the profit sharing. I drive by Pastor Dickie’s church all the time. I wish it felt appropriate to drop in on him ask why he bounced, although I suppose I’ve got a pretty good idea. Lots of hypocricy I saw even back then.
Cali lady~
If you really feel like dropping by to see Pastor Dickie, I would do so and highly recommend it. I know he is honest and got trapped the same way all of us did. There is a lot more I could say but am very reluctant to because I don’t feel it is my place to say what I wish I could. Remember he has a whole congregation of people who have been affected and to say it is disheartening would be an extreme understatement. Please keep him and his family and church in your prayers.
Orrin in my opinion, based on experience, has more than just an extreme ego problem and is a MASTER of manipulation; he has had years to hone this skill and a lot of books that he’s used to accomplish this. He is very good at getting others to WANT to do his dirty work, (he prides himself with this and he even tells people how do to this and they don’t even recognize it as manipulation). We have personally witnessed this first hand and were around for years but he is extremely crafty by making it seem as if it is serving some kind of noble cause. It is really hard to see; as a commenter said it best, they’ disorient people’, but once you are gone and have regained your critical thinking, know what he is doing to others, and know what he means really ‘between the lines’ and have had much time around listening, asking and observing, then you start to see this.
People seriously don’t know the half of what he does behind the scenes nor do they know how ruthless, controlling and unchristian he really is. But the truth of his actions speaks so loud and many big leaders and others have been on the end of his wrath and manipulation and have seen this. The masses don’t believe it because him and the PC display the opposite in front of most and they control the information tightly, the masses only ‘see and hear’ what they want them to.
As you have stated when you look back you can see a lot clearer-20/20 that is where we are now. There is no doubt about the hypocrisy. Read the lawsuit, they lost millions to Q/Amway and the experiences of others. He expects people to believe he is a hero for doing that and as even told a leader I know remember what” Laurie and I have done for you.” What? He stole that leader’s profit-sharing, based on slanderous lies!
His actions are on the extreme opposite end of the pendulum from his words. He simply is being found out for who he is and he is not alone he has is PC to be his ‘fall-guys’ who he has ‘developed supposedly has leaders’(cons), created to be and think just like him, but the truth is they are cons and not that good of ones.
There is a list of some BIG leaders under the Dan & Lisa Hawkins thread you could see that have left. This isn’t even close to how many that have really left but will give you an idea of how they are being found out.
I can believe it now for sure, I saw a few glimpes of the real guy behind the scenes – I wish I had allowed myself to give it more thought back then but there was no one who would have listened to me anyway. So, thanks for this blog, I have learned a lot over the past few days but my mind is not at ease. I’m still quite shaken. I feel for the people who really loved them you know? And I feel bad for the pastor who feels responsible for the people in his congregation too. I just don’t understand how you think you could be doing the right thing when so many people are hurt. I don’t buy “because they have given up on themselves and their dreams.” Not one bit.
On a side note, this whole thing is fascinating to me sociologically speaking. Manifest Destiny keeps coming to mind.
So how can we find out who is still on board? Where are these lists coming from?
Cali lady~
You can go to the http://www.the-team.biz and find the ‘featured speakers’ that would be the PC (Policy Counsel/Diamonds) and then you could check out the rest. If you want the behind the scenes on there you won’t get it unless you want to subscribe for a FEE. Don’t remember the cost but it was not cheap. But you will get an idea from the calendar of who is speaking.
The list under Dan & Lisa Hawkins or Ex-Team thread you will find those who have left, do you recognize any of those names?
I would download for free from this site the Merchants of Deception book, you won’t be able to put it down; without a doubt know you will recognize the very same system use and abuse, that all used in Quixtar/Amway. That is as most know, where it started with the Yager system and all the rest just duplicated, copied, and carried on right down to the religious and political group think.
Strange, their charity is the same name as the pastor’s blog? Yes I do recognize a few of those names. I think my head may explode. Thanks for the info, I will download the book.
Manifest Destiny was the general idea that specific people had a duty according to God’s plan to expand the United States across the continent and the rest of the world, with specific values that came with it… Anyway there were little things like on stage I remember him saying that people were materialistic when they cared too much about the stuff they had. In one example it was a new car and he talked about a father yelling at his kids not to mess it up and how the father shouldn’t do that because it was just a thing and the relationship with his kids was more important. Then I heard him scold his son for scuffing up his new car while getting out. I thought it was hipocritical but I think we all are sometimes so at the time I told myself not to think anything of it. I never felt I was taken seriously so it was easy for me to be a fly on the wall and pick up on things and I got the sense his ego wasn’t as under control as he made it seem. I never had a bad opinion of him or anyone else, just things were not adding up so I quit. No one ever asked where I went.
I actually went to the monthly Saturday night against my better judgement, and talk about disturbing….6 hours of speakers who talked alot but didnt say anything, including the big O.
Monavie was only mentioned briefly and for less than 2 minutes so it looks like that is phasing out. What I waws shocked at was one of the speakers was talking about the objections, reasons why people dont sign up and all and brainwashing. Heres what he said exactly “if it brainwashing thats’ great, TEAM brainwashed me out of job!” The logic of that…well, there is no theres no logic.
One speaker was talking about the 8 Fs but only covered to F’s. Six mre to go, babe.
Orrin talked about CAMP…character, autonomy, mastery and purpose. Sounded good, until he didnt say apply these to your life, apply them for TEAM. Master STP, the purpose is SSTP and building your TEAM/Business/Community.
What is it with these guys? I dotn consider it awaste, but I did feel like a Mossad agent and observed alot.
Not signed up yet~ I hope you aren’t offended but that is histerical and disturbing all in the same post. Seems like they are reading this and other blogs and have to come up with a new ‘objection cd’ so predicable! LHOL,
It is the only way they will get people ‘convinced’ to listen to their ‘brainwashing’ over and over. Totally disturbing they are sick and goes to show you how much they don’t care about being destructive. Sounds like there isn’t a thing that’s changed. Holy crap, I am sooooo glad to be gone from this sick and twisted people.
Not signed up yet~ Who was the speaker you quoted about the brainwashing?
Talk about de-sensitizing.
Is it time for us to go on the offensive? Could we put together an anti-TEAM packet and start arranging meetings with members, then we take control and present them with evidence and documentation of MonaVie’s lack of growth, TEAM’s deceptive and shady practices?
Perhaps I’m just trying to ease the ill in my stomach from seeing friends continuing to walk deceived. I wish I could do more. Perhaps posting some literature at the TEAM weekly meeting places!
Huperdein~ That is an absolutely hillarious and great idea! I am pretty sure the truth is coming out more and more! 🙂
Reading Merchants of Deception right now. The whole thing about Dexter is creepy. After I saw him speak I was very turned off by him and the business. I remember talking to a technical crossline from our upline’s group about how we both walked away offended and scratching our heads while everyone was asking “What did you think of Dexter, isn’t he great?” I was thinking, “No actually I am trying not to vomit right now and it’s 3AM and I need food and sleep, maybe a hammer to my head, I paid hundreds of dollars to get here and enter those doors and I don’t even know yet how I’m getting home from the airport – all to find out this supposed great leader is on some sort of crack.” He seriously reminded me of a pimp (I knew little of cult leaders at this point of my life but knew of girls who had been broken on the streets) with his controlling and verbally assaultive language. Sometimes I think that if he hadn’t made so much money to be an influence politically he’d be behind bars.
So how is TEAM any different than the other Yager guys? Because this book describes TEAM pretty well but starts out before their time. I know the stacking but was Amway more upset about people being screwed over or that what TEAM was doing hurt Amway more in some way?
I’m so sorry for everyone who was hurt by this. I’m thinking of my Silver who went Platinum as I was on my out. I really loved her and I doubt she benifited from the fiasco. I think she really believed and had no idea the real scope of it.
Cali lady~
You just reminded me of a horrible memory I had about Dexter. It was small ‘leadership’ of a couple hundred people and I happen to be sitting next to the only black guy in the entire room. Dexter got on his ‘crack pot’ speal and started using the word ‘n*gger’, you cannot believe how horrified and appauled I was and how terrible I felt for this guy. I got up brought it up in NOT a nice tone to Orrin and Laurie; then Orrin had the audacity to say “are you going to let someone steal your dream!” Are you f-ing kidding me? He didn’t say it was WRONG, nothing, and by that justified it! It still raises my blood pressure, I got in my car, didn’t even go back to the hotel where I had already paid for the room and drove all night to get home! From then on I never trusted and lost all respect for Orrin and would just compound my discust when he always would edify Dexter like he was a god and would mock him with his exact voice! He was Orrin’s hero, that should tell you something! From that point on I knew he was in it for the MONEY and nothing else! I should have quit on the spot!! So, everything you say multiply it by a million! I will forever regret that and should have gone up to this guy and said I was sorry. 😦
Editor’s note: edited the n-word out slightly in the comment. I think we all know how it’s spelled without spelling it in the comment.
Some Christians they are, NOT!
Thanks Amthrax, I was very reluctant and didn’t want to use it at all, I probably just should have said the ‘n’ word, I know it is appalling to use and only did because that is what was said.
Absolutely, I was disgusted with the inherent racism and sexism of the whole organization. I actually saw an african-american couple walk out of a function when Brady brought up a book we were all supposed to read called “It’s ok to Leave the Plantation” or something like that. It was so audacious to compare having a job to actual slavery. I mean as a metaphor I can see to a certain extent but it was like they were actually saying it was the same thing. I doubt the couple read the book ( I didn’t, there were some I just didn’t think sounded like any good) and when he told us all we “could get off the plantation” they looked at each other, nodded and got up. They did not return to their seats directly in front of me.
So was he saying “don’t let the Dexter the crazy guy steal your dream, but do what he says?” Weird. I’m still wondering why the TEAM got kicked out if Yager hasn’t. They were pulling huge numbers all the same.
Cali lady ~ Yes that is what he was saying don’t let the ‘crazy guy’ steal my dream but worse he sent me the message; it was ok the ‘crazy guy’ can do whatever he wants, ‘he has results bigger than anyone else’, he agrees and he will follow along. To explain what I know about leaving Amway would take days. I would read the lawsuit and other comments on here. There are numerous blogs.
The jest is Amway says they were tired of Orrin’s breaking the rules and he solicited their downline and took their LOS, which there is TRUTH here; all were told when and how to resign, if they DENY this it would be a bold-faced lie, those are FACTS, doesn’t matter how they try and justify it!
Orrin obviously, believed for years that it was a ‘Pyramid Scheme’ with ‘hopelessly overpriced’ products that couldn’t be retailed, but told the entire team all those years to keep building numbers! He stated they were ‘The best business bar none’; you can find that on YouTube; so which is it? This is where he lost his credibility and sickens me that he would tell others for years to keep building KNOWING they were a pyramid scheme and their products weren’t resalable but for everyone else on the TEAM was suppose to ‘believe’ it was ‘the best business bar none’ flat out deception; all the while, for YEARS, promoting we were going to the Wal-mart of the internet and then go to a $40 bottle juice company? What hypocrisy. Changed his lie to; people who believed we were going to the Wal-Mart of the internet ‘was the biggest miss-conception on the TEAM’? Are you flipping joking? People wonder why the stability is gone and question their motives and stability. How does anyone NOT see the BS that is constantly fed, twisted, and changed to suit the need of the day (THEIR INCOME) and that the only thing they are trying to protect is their secrets, MONEY and their ‘image’?
Now has the audacity to say:
“In a time of turmoil, where many faithless people lost their dreams, the TEAM stood its ground, determined to make a difference. Over the last 6 months, when many pundits had written off our community, leaders of character began stepping up across the country.”
He is implying that all those that left are; ‘where many faithless people lost their dreams’, ‘many pundits that written off our community.’ This is the typical and predictable propaganda messages that are continually sent and people wonder where the ‘followers’ get their information that they repeat and why they all say the exact same things?! The guy has always reminded me of Dexter.
He also told the masses in Team seminars that Amway’s was happy with the way we were building and to KEEP BUILDING! Then the confrontation happened, Amway said they booted them and Orrin said he and others resigned. Then the lawsuits started flying and Orrin and others, lost in the final lawsuit.
That was just the beginning and isn’t even close to the worst of what has happened and is happening.
I’m bummed it seems the Forbes article is no longer there.
Are you sure? I was able to view it here: http://www.forbes.com/forbes/2008/0811/050.html
Nope. When I open the page, nothing comes up. it’s weird.
Oh snap. Patience grasshopper, I just had to wait for it to load. I took over a minute.
Question to all of those that care to answer.
Have you ever mentored with a TEAM upline that gave you personal financial advice concerning investments or insurance (mutual funds, stocks, bonds) that involved advice to sell or dispose of those investments to put money into your TEAM business.
If so, please tell me your story!
Seeking Info~
My answer would be, from our experience, regardless of the ‘investment specifics’; Orrin’s/PC and your ‘uplines’ advice is; ‘cash’ it all in and ‘invest’ in ME ( they would say your business, but there is no such thing) that is the basic financial advise we got. That is as specific as it got and am sure there will be others share their stories that could be more specific.
But the best advice would be, DON”T take their advice, go to a real legitimate financial planner ; who is qualified.
These people are making money off the backs of others, in a big and corrupt way and their only interest is to get you to ‘invest’ in them.
Welcome to the site.
Finally the Team of Deception is being exposed on a daily basis. I quit some years ago, because I saw them for what they were, and I didn’t like what I saw. I was a member of Berean Baptist, and, Pastor is a good man who just got caught up in the whole mess. I hear he is out now though.
I do think people are wising up..I mean, how is that 2 to 5 year plan working for you? I know people that joined around 2001 or 2001, and they are still broke! What a plan! The line I still laugh at is I remember when an upline told me “confidentially” that a Saphire had not had to pay any tax yet, and went on to explain all the write offs! I can remember thinking as I walked away, don’t they get it, the Guy is making no money! Amazing. I watched people refinance their houses, they have lost them all now, you name it. I remember thinking how a job was bad…no it isn’t, ask Donald Trump, he loves his J O B!
The truth hurts~
Welcome to the site, your name says it all! I agree this site is heating up with new people coming on daily. People are SEEING the truth and that is why we are here!
Your upline either bold-faced lied to you about the Saphire or the Saphire is lying on their taxes or as you said isn’t making any money. But I would guess one of the first 2 reasons because Saphire’s did make money so my guess would be the first or second reason. I also know you can make money but you they get most of it back with their recycled junk every time they change names and companies.
You are right they bashed jobs and everything that does NOT involve you giving your money, time, mind, and life to them!
Thanks for sharing the more people sharing their experiences the more the truth comes out! 🙂
There is thousands of comments on here you may have noticed! 🙂 Hope you continue to share.
Does anyone ever question just how the tool profits are shared? Did anyone ever wonder just how they calculated who purchased what on theose lovely receipts at the Seminars. Think about it, the Upline is supposed to make money on the tools his downline purchases at seminars..work this out..who is counting who bought what? How does the Upline know if the actual commission is correct? How do tool money recipients know if they actually got the percentage of what their team members bought? Hmmm.
I remember listening to Chris Brady talk about how important it was to go to a seminar. He said his whole business was hurt because he hadn’t gone to one early on blah, blah, blah. Lets get real here, it would be far more interesting to watch paint dry on a wall than go to their seminars. How many times can you hear the same drivel over and over? Truly, the definition of insanity is hearing the same thing over and over again and expecting to get some big epiphany from it at those seminars.
I loved the talks on being a completing woman (not) ..and yes I was there for the just say yes talk live..I thought about really shaking them up by asking just who was I supposed to say yes to, as I was single..Maybe I should have said lets draw straws and I’ll take one for the team? Do you realize the control they try to exert? They even try to get into the bedroom with you. Disgusting.
I do agree the CDs are the most dangerous aspect. I remember when I decided to go 2 weeks without listening to any, wow, the light bulb started to come on, for sure. I actually realized they were highly addictive in their own way, as they can help you to suspend disbelief.
The truth hurts~
Excellent post, and thanks for the reminders and laughs! You are 100% spot on with the cd’s, and if you read up on cults you will find this is a characteristic of a cult; information control and repeated information will eventually convince you!
I couldn’t help but crack up at your just say yes and drawing straws! Glad you are here! 🙂
OK- I have to ask. I was out before this “just say yes” thing. What was it all about? I have an idea but I’d love some specifics. I CAN’t WAIT!!!
Basically just say yes was about how hard your Husbands are working to build their team, so you need to reward them, be there for them, and just say yes to their request for intimacy. Being a completing woman, you should always say yes to your Husbands wish for intimate behavior, just say yes, even if you are tired, whatever. It makes your Husband happy, and then he can go out and build his Team..Translate this to be a good little wifey and do your Husband even if you haven’t seen him due to his being out STP, even if you have no money, and are worried sick about how you are going to pay the bills this month (remember, fake it till you make it) and hey, if the kids just barfed all over you, wipe it up little missy, and jump into to the sack with your conquering hero, who by the way, has his head on backwards like you do thinking he can make money in this scheme..Well maybe you can, as long as you are willing to look others in the eye and deceive them.
Wow, I really should have stood up and asked if they needed me to fill in, as I was single then! I would have loved to have seen the look on their faces over that one!
We are going to a million people..who know the truth about this thing!
Again all I can say is wow. I’m a guy and as great as the idea sounds on the surface, it ultimately would be like the Stepford wives to me. What a trip. These idiots just have no boundaries anymore huh? Damn.
P Stinnett~ LOL Great synopsis!
The ‘yes’ speech is straight out of a Yager ‘teaching’. Very fitting, they are as wacked in my opinion as he is, what can a person expect when ole Dex is Orrin’s hero!
The sad part about this whole issue is “what if” indeed!
What if I had back all the time I wasted on this “business”?
What if I had spent more time with Family, instead of sitting at seminars where watching paint dry would have been more stimulating?
What if I had not listened to tape/cd speak and drivel, and spent my time furthering my education and/or real job, that actually paid me?
What if I had not gone parading across stage as a turbo whatever, telling everyone it was about the system, just do it! Remember my business was about to explode (think about that one for a minute) hmm. Think of all the people I got mixed up in this thing that never made a dime!
What if I had all the money back I wasted on tools? What if I had all the money back from the high priced products that I bought so I could get a paltry check in the mail. I am fired up now, yessirree!
What if I hadn’t felt like the bottom of the barrell after I got out, when I realized how much it had cost me both emotionally and monetarily? What could I have done with that time that was wasted in “shell shock?”
What if I hadn’t called all those people on my names list? My names list consisted of every poor sap I chased into attending a meeting, then, either they were smart enough to walk away, or they got in and in the long run never saw that passive income. Maybe I should name it my Shame list?
How did I ever think it was cool to compete for the right to drive my Grand Poopah Upline to a meeting. What is up with that, if they have so much (leveraged on the backs of others) cannot they find it in themselves to drive their own blasted car to a “got to be there” meeting.
I remember once hearing a voice mail about a couple who earned the right to drive the Grand Poopah to a house meeting! It was a nasty icy day, and they called from the road in their old beater car, excited and calling themselves some type of warrior, because they were braving the weather to pick up the Poopah himself! How sad, wouldn’t you think Poopah boy would have cared enough to say, hey, the roads are bad, stay home with Family, don’t risk yourselves. No..instead, you are supposed to get this marvelous time with the Poopah, and your business will explode! Kind of reminds me of when the shuttle exploded..”go for throttle up” and we all know how that ended, don’t we? This too ends much the same way, with devastation.
If you chose any business, absolutely do your due diligence! Check it out, kick the tires some, make a business plan, do research! If you cannot get straight facts, run like Big Foot is gaining on your heels! In any business, you would be entitled to Financial Statements! Do you think the bank would give you a loan just because you think its a good idea? They would ask for income statements!
Just know, if you are healing that you can’t get back yesterday, so forge ahead with determination. Hey, you have laready taken the first step to a new life!
Holy Spokes the truth hurts, that was amazing, and I laughed out loud at your ‘run like BIG FOOT,’ that is hilarious! Keep it coming you have some awesome posts! 🙂
IQ you too, thanks for the laughs!!
The truth Hurts. I am still shaking my head in disgust regarding your “just say yes” comment. I knew that TEAM promoted sexual stereotypes and believe that women should be “seen and not heard”, but having sex when you don’t want it just so you will ultimately be rewarded financially? That reminds me of something…oh yes! A hooker!! Do women NOT see that??
The books and DVDs f*ckface Woodward needs to read/watch are written by Gloria Steinem. He needs to pull his head out of his “lost in the 1950’s” ass and realize that women are not to be objectified and used for our sexual parts. That we have brains that are much larger than his and he needs to come to terms with that. I just wish the women of TEAM would understand how wrong this is. That their daughters and sons watch the women be silent, unthinking and “adoring” wives and they grow up to believe that women don’t have value outside of the kitchen or bedroom.
UNBELIEVABLE!!
Humiliated~
You are right in everyway! All women mis-leaders on the team are suppose to homeshool their kids, be subservient, and say yes, yes,yes! And obviously are supposed to follow and NOT question the illegal, immoral, and unethical, evil deeds of their heros. Follow even if you know your spouse is a criminal. But if a single women was a builder, they would NEVER tell them to stop building and get it right with their spouse, it was KEEP building and when the MONEY rolls in then your spouse will come along. Hypocrites.
How bout this…hire someone to home school your kids, but don’t pay employer/employee taxes, and tell the teacher tutor that she is a contractor and needs to pay her own taxes etc……oh and don’t tell her until she’s months into teaching your kids.
How bout this; Born to be users; with no couth.
I bet there is tons of stories to be told, I have heard a few myself.
There is a commenter ‘hell no’ May 11,under Ex-Team Would You Have Stayed In? (archived post) said he did a grand worth of work and NEVER got paid! You can check it out.
In the REAL world people get paid for the work they do and most companies do things on the up and up, and if not your name is trash, and people never forget, well seems they are living up to that.
Does it really have to be about their money; THEM KEEPING IT, ALL the time? GREEDY!
They should be ashamed of themselves! I really can’t wrap my mind around their
(un)’Christian-Principled’ life, and ‘how they win( lose) friends and influence (discust) people.’
‘Hell No’ commenter said; he was Mark Huber’s nephew that NEVER got paid for the work he did, you can check it out if you haven’t already seen it.
Yep, that’s another deception/bull$hit line they like to use, Speak.
Here’s one I heard over and over…..”It’s just like any other job out there, you show up to do the work and we will pay you.”
I can’t tell you how many times I heard that one come out of that $hithead’s mouth from stage.
So I take it the Hubers are still there? What about people outside their downline like the VanBuskirks? Are they know the downline?
VanBuskirks were originally Orrin’s UPLINE in Amway, I have no idea where they are in now. Yes the Huber’s are still there.
I hear ya switch, so much double talk out of both sides of their lying mouths, they say it isn’t like a job, then say it is…CRAZY.
I heard Mark Huber is still being “protected” by the clowns….I want to say more about him..but will let it sit for now…
One time fly…..His day will come.
FLY * Team Deception
Matthew 18:19
“Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven.”
There are just some things that should not be discussed at a “Business” meeting. I am in the corporate world and have attended many leadership classes, none of them ever talked about, “Just say yes”. In fact, they never once mentioned anything about sex. Why would I think any of them were qualified to give me advice on how my love life should go. To me, God is the only one that I take advice from as he is the only qualified one to give any advice on LIFE.
Quit 2, that is the whole point of team, they attempt to permeate every nook and cranny of your existence . You are correct, a BUSINESS doesn’t do this but a CULT does.
ex-TEAM members, I am curious, they are saying this to the women, what do they say to the men? If you want it, help yourself as your wife is OBLIGATED to pleasure you?
I have always wondered if they give you “advice” on how to raise your children as well? I know in MonaVie they told parents that the children should be given “dream boards”, mostly because they kids were sad that they weren’t spending time with their parents. The children were to write down or find photos of things they really wanted and I think this was supposed to appease them and make them think they would actually GET these things, so that all of this time away from their parents would be worthwhile. I get that parents can’t play with their kids all day, they have to go out and work to get them into ice skating or soccer (all of which costs money) but to teach kids that their dreams should consist of material things only and to sacrifice your relationship with them to that end,
is unconscionable. . I will bet that most kids wrote down, or thought of writing down, “to play catch with my dad”, or “to go on a family vacation without talking about Monavie” or “to go on a family vacation PERIOD”! But again, what the hell is a “business” like Monavie doing giving parents advice on how to raise their children? I would be suing the ass off of MY company if they dared venture into these areas of my life.
Oh, snap. That’s right. I don’t work for a cult.
humiliated~
You hit the nail on the head. I have had to appologize to our kids and luckily they have forgiven us and one of my children wanted to come on here and how they felt.
I would get specific calls and emails saying L.W. has some books for you to read and they were All parenting books. I never was offended by the books, other than I had 5 other books that you had to read that month and build the buisness, but I NEVER asked any advice about how to ‘raise’ my children from them, that would have been dumb since they had younger children or any other personal area of our lives. If I needed advice I would go to my mom or grandma that raised 7 kids that all have children that are sound morally and ethically, and follow practice what they teach. That I witnessed my whole life that lived the principles they pay lip service to.
There is nothing that replaces experience or great examples. They have some great kids but if the truth would be told they would say just what all kids would just as you pointed out. One thing I noticed and don’t agree with is their kids tattle on each a lot but kids are kids and they want time and love more than anything.
They want to CONTROL every area of your life that falls right into their 8 F’s and that we never fell for.
I didn’t even take business ‘building’ advice from them because they weren’t even out building, 5,6,7, days a week like we were, they could only give ‘theoretical’ not from experience that I was getting, they stayed home while the ‘men’ (small) would go out and build while the PC stayed home and made phone calls, but expected EVERY other couple to be out there ‘in the trenches’ together, leaving their children. I will stop their before I start using some choice words. All in all they Want your performance, and your money period.
It is sad that so many are being hurt by so few……Team members constantly put posts on their FB pages quoting Cd’s and the latest “leader” from a team stage.
I saw a friends post today. He has been with Team, in and out for 10 years. He hit platinum in Q. None of his team liked MV, they were all “broke’ according to him. (If they were so broke why did you sell them system and seminar tickets??) Any way, he said it is a shame that people can post on the internet anything they want and not back it up with fact. What is more sad is that a guy can get on stage, get paid a large sum, talk about how you are gonna “make it” all you need to do is not quit and then turn that talk into a CD and force it into system as part of your “training” and have half of what he said turn out to be a lie.
Team says from stage right now that if you produce 2 teams with 50 systems on one side and 25 on another that you will average 2-3 grand a month……..HA!!!! We know for fact that is not true as a check for that size team a couple of months ago was less than 700 bucks. Now deduct your personal system costs, tickets to seminar, gas and any other expenses……….what do you come out with???
Orrin’s greatest ability is to come off as sincere………I have found countless contradictions in his Cd’s. He lied about losing weight with DOT 1 step, not ever giving anyone anything or any position, his own kids would have to build the business, how Laurie did so great at losing weight (14 grand of liposuction) the list goes on and on. They lie manipulate and coerce cooperation. All the same things they blast corporate America for by the way, and yet many still “drink their kool aide”.
I have seen and heard enough to know that they will not ever get to a million. It is a bold enough statement that people will stay just because Orrin says it. After all would he lie to thousands of people from stage and thousands more on cd??? YES he would……….it keeps millions of dollars flowing to him……………There time is coming and I do not mean that in a prosperous way…………
I am not a fan of government agencies but I will take more than a little pleasure the day the Team gets audited by that little know entity as the IRS……………Do you think Orrin will stand on stage at the major and look out into the crowd and say Bring It then?????????????? I laughed when I first joined Team and a friend said they were all going to jail………….It seems now that someday there may be some truth to that……….
[Editor’s Note: Added paragraph breaks for better readability.]
Finally~
Great Post, I agree with everything you have said! You are right, they are a sorry case for integrity, truth, or honesty. There time is coming…….:) I am not revengeful person but everything they have coming they EARNED and DESERVE and just as anyone we all want true justice served!
Finally~
Probably the most hypicritical and discusting practice they do is blame everything else, like anyone can put things on the internet without facts, or it is like reading the bathroom wall or they are anonymous faceless, nameless, cowards & critics.
In reality they are all over their blogs, twitter, facebooks, etc.. and I honestly ( I could have missed something) but I have never seen them state any facts to denounce any of what the critics say, NOTA. They think they can use all these venues to spread their agenda and everyone is suppose to believe that, that is like reading the hyped -up bathroom wall? The hypocrisy, is beyond my comprehension!!!!
Just as every SINGLE quote they use can be applied to others, and in most cases when turn a bout is fair play and used with these very same quotes are applied with the facts and their actions it shows who they really are! In other words, they eat their own words in most cases.
My husband and I got started with Monavie about 15 months ago and we are Gold Executives. I’m sorry many people got led into thinking they could sit by and watch their business grow. We got started with the R3Global system of training and could not be happier! We’ve added an extra 50K to our income and we are actively helping our teams build their businesses. ALL MLM’s are a risk, there are no guarantees. I just know my line of sponsorship has ALL achieved success because we are positive, don’t speak poorly of others and work together. I, too, was in Amway and never made any money- I was a Silver Direct- however, it taught me great principles on building this. Best of luck to all of you!
Jane Haagsman
Gold Executive
Cottage Grove, MN
janehaagsman@yahoo.com
Jane;
As has been stated before, it behooves me that people will come on this blog, and just assume that these people here “could sit by and watch their business grow”, without reading post after post after post of experiences. How condescending can you people get? So lets play your game. You stated that you have added an extra 50k to your income as a Gold Executive. I took the time to go to the IDS and found out that as an average Gold Executive you would earn from MV $52,902 per year. So we can safely say that you are an average earner according to MV. I have some simple questions for you. You stated that you have been in for 15 months so if my calculations are right, that means you went Gold Executive relatively quickly, say….three months? Or is there another source of income that you cannot disclose? Have you maintained Gold Executive every week since you first achieved that rank, or do you have weeks that are less than Gold? How much money do you spend a month on system, going to meetings, gas, etc. I don’t know what the numbers are a month at R3Global, but the minimum amount that is spent in Team is $500.00 if you are to be considered for power player. That dosen’t include gas, seminars, majors, hotels, food, time off of work, and the minimum amount of MV that is required by Team. Now how much do you spend going to seminars every month and major functions? Please include your hotel, gas, food bill, and the time you are losing from work that you don’t get paid for, etc. to the total. Whatever your expenditures are, please subtract them from the extra 50K you so proudly state you have earned. I am sure that number is significantly less than the 50K you say you added to your income. How is it that you can state your income so proudly, and never come forward with the costs that are associated with the business?
I am as happy as a peach that you could not be happier. Me too since I got out of Team. Just call me Peachy.
Peachy, LHOL got love it the name! You are so positive! 🙂 Boom goes the dynamite! Great post, great questions! I was thinking the same, awful ‘proud’ of that 50 grand. Sorry, that doesn’t impress me one bit, we already know that is not even close to what Jane is profiting.
I think you nailed the questions.
Jane ~ Along with answering Steve (peachy) questions, why don’t you add to that the HOURS you have spent on your buiness to get to gold in 15 months and did you bring anyone from your Amway group to get that? Do you inventory load in your teams, or buy up your pin levels? Not sure if your intentions were to come here and try and impress with your 50 grand, but since you are making income claims, then its time to back that up with some documents, because I think the FTC requires you to do so.
Another question, how many legitimate customers with volume do you have, not people sponsored in your group who are just buying once in a while either, REAL customers outside of your business?
There are some guarantee’s in MLM’s that you haven’t mentioned, maybe you just forgot; and that is at least 99% of the people NEVER make a profit, no return on investment. You could go to Pyramid Scheme Alert or Juicescam’s site and get this information. You say you are in R3gobal, I don’t how their profit-sharing works? How much money of that 50 grand comes from the ‘tool’ income? Let’s be honest Brig himself, says it is a build and replace, we don’t need Brig to tell us that we built teams for years, anyone who built teams, knows that.
So how many people do you have to replace this year to catch up to where you were last year when they flushed your group? Your starting over point?
Your LOS that has ALL achieved success? Are you referring to your ‘upline’ and what specifically do you mean by ‘success’? We already know 99% or more of your downline is losing money, so are you equating ‘success’ with money, please be specific?
We are positively waiting for your answers. 🙂
Once you are out of Team it is so much easier to see the whole, of the evil parts.
I just can’t get over the lie’s, the bad advice and the length the leadership will go to to protect their income. Orrin has said many times from stage, “If you don’t do this, at least go do something and I will be your biggest cheer leader”. That sounds good from stage but Orrin has ripped on, lied about and chastised the leaders in his organization who have left. They are labeled quitters and people who did not have a big enough dream. When in fact they realized that team is not the way to their dreams so they quit. It is really that simple.
Let me address the quitter thing a little further. First off, Orrin and Chris both quit GM. Chris quit a couple years after getting a free education at Carnegie Mellon, one of the top engineering schools in the country. I wonder if he paid them back for the education?????
Claude Hamilton quit the Canadien military because he spent time away from Lana. I would have to ask Claude if he thought that when he signed up for the special forces they were going to consider his relationship before they sent him on a mission? Jim Martin quit plumbing, Steve Morgan walked out of an electricians job. Now I have heard all of these stories from stage and they all have their reasons for being “quitters” What makes their reasons for quitting more valid than someone elses reasons for quitting Team ? The reasons I have heard are pretty compelling. Corruption, lie’s, harmful marital advice, gossiping about private things shared with a mentor and the list goes on. Should we scrutinize Tim Marks for quitting drinking because he saw it was harmful to him and his family?
Team has fractured many relationships, both married people and people that are just in relationships. They always want to take credit and point to people they claim they helped but never take any responsibility for the ones they hurt. Because in their minds Team can not hurt anyone it can only help………Remember what Tim Marks says from stage if someone doesn’t get in the Team “Poor them”. He really feels that way.
One more point on how misguided their thinking is at times. There is a guy, let’s use a Brady favorite for his name, Bubba. Bubba is married and his wife works and he has kids. He joins the Team. He is unemployed for most of the 3 1/2 years in the business to date. Has never been able to afford paying all his bills and pay for system, tickets and tools the whole time in the business. He does not show the plan at all and if he has it has been to people in worse financial situations than himself. I know for a fact that a former round table member ( I say former because I do not think he qualified this last time around) has told him this “You can do it Bubba, all you have to do is not quit” Sound familiar?. The former RT member claims to be Christian. I am not a Bible scholar but I know the Gods stance on going into debt. The former RT member does know this guys situation. Bubba brags that his wife has a good paying job (not really, I know what she makes) and that allows him to stay home and THINK about showing plans. Now as a Christian wouldn’t the former RT guy advise him to get a job, some kind of job and not pour thousands of dollars into something he is not taking seriously?? They routinely advise people to cash out IRA’s and stocks to pay for their system and tools. I know, it was suggested to me. They tell people college is a waste of money and to quit so they can put their money into Team. A question………What in the world qualifies them to suggest these things?
Again, it is sad that people get star struck by these men and women and abdicate their rights to think for themselves. They are drunk on their “Rock Star” status. I hope and pray for the end………..And from what I hear they are circling the drain.
One added question for Jane. How many people in her down line are buying juice in bulk, that they do not drink or sell, to maintain her volume? I know it is common practice for her group to have new distributors start with a 12 case order or they do not sponsor them. At this rate it does not take long to go Gold. You only need about 30 people in 2 leg’s. I am taking into account the staggering of weeks where the bulk orders are placed. I wonder how many people are still paying off their credit cards on the bulk orders???
My up lines went Diamond in MV in 2007, their team mates are still paying off the tab on the bulk orders coordinated over a 3 week period to get them to Diamond………..You never heard that story from stage……….did ya?
Finally – Great Post! I completely agree that once we are away from TEAM we see things so much more clearly. At first there is a bit of guilt that we just didn’t work hard enough. (this goes for TEAM Office Employees and the those that are IBOs) The one underlying feeling is a guilt of leaving friends that either can’t or won’t leave.
As a former TEAM Office Employee I know for a fact that several of the people still working for TEAM are there only because they need the job, or they know they can no longer think for themselves and leave that to OW and his Clowns.
Once we get away, regardless from where we were on TEAM, we see the organization for what it is – Lies, Greed, Hypocrisy, Sexism, Arrogance, Delusional, ________________
Finally & Fly~ WaaBam, Kaboom!
Awesome clear and so many truths in your posts! They focus continually (indoctrinating) with their repetitious statements of YOU WILL win, if you Don’t quit or shamefully I have even repeated from stage that if you get one person started you don’t have a right to quit.
I believed this, and ironically, in the end that is what caused me some excruciating guilt and pain.
The last thing we wanted was to hurt anyone and we brought people in and took it very personal to help those, we did. We tried our best to do what we said we would do.
After it came to an end, it took a couple years to come to grips with this guilt and then you realize you feel more guilty for bringing them in, and obligated to now tell them the truth!
Once you decifer the truth, then it is DO THE RIGHT THING, no matter how much pain, guilt or rage, and anger that comes with being betrayed, lied to, deceived, used, and sort out the forced thoughts and beliefs, these cons do to create that guilt in the first place.
I too hope and pray for the big bang that causes the end….
Thanks for being here and your support to all!
SYT – From my conversations with other former TEAM Employees and some inside people, November may be their last stand, it could very well come crumbling down with the Official Launch if L.I.f.E. From what I’ve been told, there was a lot of grasping at straws, and last minute stuff at the Major and some back stage temper flare ups between the big leaders.
We can only hope!!
Finally,
You wrote….
If this is true, then it is a violation of law. I am looking for specific examples of leaders that have given investment advice without being properly certified or licensed.
I understand that people on this blog may wish to hide their identity. If you list specifics, without your name, perhaps I can post the proper authority for you to make a formal complaint.
I believe it helps people to vent, that is why I like this site, but justice will bring relief to all.
If anyone else has a specific story of investment advise involving the sale of a registered security, or an insurance producet….SPEAK UP. If there is enough, it can lead to a class action.
[Editor’s Note: Formatted quote for better readability]
Thank you Seeking Info!
I will ask my spouse if there was any specifics. I was never personally adviced, but will find out.
Thanks a bunch for coming here and offering that to all of us!
Not a Problem! I am not interested in revenge. Only Justice.
I would encourage anyone on this site to work out their anger, and then move forward productively. I will be posting methods of doing so.
One method is to ask forgiveness from anyone and everyone that you involved in the business. This is what a Christian does when they find that they were deceived and in return participated in the deception. Those that made it out of this abusive culture owe it to those that have been hurt, or are still being hurt. If you approach theses people in the spirit of love and with the love of Christ, you will be giving them a blessing, even if they do not understand it to be one at the time.
In the mean time, if there is anything that needs to be brought to the light, we should do so with the integrity.
God Bless.
Seeking Info~
I agree and I have personally apologize to as many as possible, and all of those have left for unethical reasons themselves and many have dealt with the same. I also believe it takes self-forgiveness and for myself and others that were in for a long time; that I have spoken to, it seems that was and is the biggest hurdle. Also, reading on cults and other topics have helped understand more. It does take time to heal from the blantant betrayal, lies and all other things.
I couldn’t be more in agreement with the JUSTICE for all.
Anyone remember what Cd’s (the freshman caught me?) or which one Orrin, told his story of how he only took 1500 dollars out of his 401k, and that built his buisness all the waaaayyyyy to Diamond, right. He was implying that is what others could or should do, implying obviously without directly saying it. But we all know how they ‘plant the seeds.’
I never believed for a minute that is ALL it took for Orrin, otherwise he would have told that step by step on a CD on exactly how to do that. Then Everyone should ONLY have to ‘invest’ 1500 bucks and become a mult-millionaire, right?!
I remember Orrin talking about it from stage as well. So it might be on a few different CD’s. I think the amount is correct, and the verbage he used is correct. He did say he took “$1500.00 from his 401k and built his business to diamond, and if I can do it so can you.” That was the hook to get the new person on system.
One time fly: I have heard that O has made a rule called the “Ron Day rule” ( i believe that was the name.) Do you know about this rule? and can you tell us more?
Omg~ Fly I totally missed your comments! Share some more if you can!! 🙂
WIthout going to detailed…to protect folks ya know? It seemed as though the uh..Gurus….were grasping at things and almost making up things as they went along behind stage. The comment told me was “tempers flaring” with the Head Guru…(snort, laugh) and his Clowns. That’s about all I can report right now.
I have not heard of the Ron Day rule…but I’ll look into it…
Fly~
The snort and laugh cracked me up, reminded me how they used to call the guys ‘Snortin Ryno’s!’ It’s terrible with all these indoctrinated word associations, just can’t escape it.
If I was the revengeful type; I would sue them just for that, LOL
Ya I do know what ya mean, there are many times I wish I could just spill it all.
I thought they didn’t have any emotion but a positive one, oh how that just burst my perfect bubble!!! That just can’t be, LHOL 🙂
I don’t have a clue what the Ron Day Rule is either, is that Orrin’s Pastor?
At first I thought maybe it was a Ron Ball question, those who go way back would know who he is. LOL
I hope this photo doesn’t bring back too many bad memories.
This is a photo from Grand Rapids, shortly after Orrin Woodward’s termination from Amway/Quixtar. Were any of you at this event? See anyone in the crowd that you recognize?
No thankfully I didn’t go. Was encouraged by my upline tormentor (remember that tag line) to go. I was busy at that time trying to plug leaks in my financial dam. Dam broke a year later. Had to sell the house to get what equity was left to help pay bills. It was a very tough time for all of us one way or another.
Amthrax, I am not in that picture, but I do recognize several from that photo.
In the beginning of my time on TEAM, we focused almost exclusively on building 2 teams at a time. TEAM felt that Ron Day was getting paid too much money and getting too much recognition for getting ‘lucky’ with 2 big teams so they changed profit sharing to getting maximum payout for having 3 teams because it was hard to get ‘lucky’ 3 times. That is when they introduced the profit sharing that we all signed and did not get a copy of. There may have been some other aspects of the Ron Day rule, but that was the main part.
I also think that going from a focus of 2 teams to 3 teams was the biggest mistake TEAM made. You would have had a lot more people making money and I think that it would have bred more success financially for a lot more people. But, that also means less profits for the guy at the top of the TEAM organization.
Just for the record, Ron Day struck me as a very good guy. Beware TEAMsters, this is not your business. You make zero decisions and are basically a sales rep and just like any sales organization, they can change the comp plan anytime they want to. Just ask Ron.
Chalk another one up for justice being served.
Glad to see you here, Seeking info.
Some Great points. I was present when O made the comment about the IRA. Speaking in general to a large audience as he did, revealed his opinion, but it was not specific enough. That speech in combination with advice to his goons to advise their teams to sell securities is another.
When a mentor tells you to sell xyz to have enough money to fund a tool purchase. Then there is a problem.
In my case, I had a leader tell my family to drop an insurance plan to create enough money to fund a 3 case autoship of juice.
Now, if that leader was coached to do it, we will find out when the State Insurance department does their interview.
If enough arrows point in the right direction. Then…..
So, if we can get specific enough about what was told to be sold, when you were told to sell it. Then I can point you in the direction of who to make the complaint. DO NOT PUT THE NAME OF THE LEADER ON THE BLOG. We don’t want to blamed for copy cat complaints.
If anyone out there knows someone else who has been burned. This is a great place to start asking questions and encouraging people to come forward with their stories.
Perhaps if we have enough Amthrax can create a page just for that.
In any case, doing this out in the open brings to light the truth. If there is no problem. So be it. If there is, they can watch justice unfold.
I am sorry to repeat much of what I have already said. I want as many people to know what I am looking for. I know it is there. Lets go get it!
@Seeking Info – I will consider making a dedicated page regarding the financial advice that TEAM leaders provided. Stay tuned.
Amthrax- I am in that photo LOL. One of my friends saw it and alerted me to it…….I will refrain from pointing myself out.
Seeking Info- When I asked my up line if i should cash in my Mutual funds he asked me if “Team is what I was going to do for a living” At the time I said yes. He then advised me to sell it and use the money to support me why I was building. I have heard this from him many times and with other people. They get a turbo number and all of a sudden they are experts in marriage, finances and relationships. I know of some extremely personal things that were shared with our up lines and then put out to others. Shameful, they constantly edify these guy’s from stage as having the utmost character and integrity so that the lemmings will share with them and then they betray a confidence………I was told about personal things about the PC ladies that I should not have heard. In fact one was made fun of so much that my heart ached for her. I did change the conversation and if I were to mention who was doing it it would blow peoples minds…….They are not who they say they are.
As for the Ron Dey rule. I have heard from 2 Team employee’s that it exists. I always wondered what happened to a certain turbo hundred. I spoke with a friend of his and once he hit T100 he decided to take advantage of the “B”type business he built. Orrin and Chris quickly informed him that if he wasn’t building and speaking he would not be paid as a T100………….are you Kidding me??? How many times do they show the Cashflow quadrant and con people into thinking they are building a B business??? I have heard Tim Marks, martin, Orrin, Brady and all of these guy’s say they build it because they love it. The hard truth is they have to or Orrin will take their checks away. Mr Character, Orrin Woodward….I guess they don’t realize that when these talks get recorded people can go back to them……..duh
I also agree with One time fly. I was told that the launch was in July and that the pay plan was set. It was another of many many lies told by my up line. Does anyone recall in the lawsuit that Orrin was asked under oath if he was setting up a competing business with Q? What is so sad is how he lied and lied repeatedly as well as other PC members about the competing business. I was told by my up line about the energy drink that he tasted, how the site just needed the push of a button to be launched. I have also heard from others who were at the tasting of the products they had developed. Now I am not a bible scholar, but I am familiar with “Thou Shalt not Lie”. Orrin and Chris have preached from a pulpit, given biblical advice to thousands and have said many times that their character doesn’t have a price……….Well it would seem that it does……..I do not know how they sleep at night. There time is coming, what will the guy’s that have burned every bridge in their field prior to Team to for money when the goose that laid the golden egg get’s whacked? Or worse what will happen if the IRS decides to look into the Team books???
One caveat…..I am a sinner save by grace….I am not above these men in any way………I also am not teaching from stage and telling people they can make money when I know they can’t.
Finally – I had forgotten about the “new energy drink”. It was going to be one of the products that was going to be sold thru the website.
Can anyone remember E3..? That was the name of the new project/walmart of the internet that we were told not to admit knowing about. I first hear that a couple years before the lawsuit….
E3 Hmm…..lie under oath. I am with finally, How do they sleep at night?
Finally~ I was not there at the courthouse, but what did you all do, just be there to show support?
SYT, yeah we stood there in the rain with orders to look like we were at a funeral and to talk to no one…………Man, what was I thinking…….
A few more thoughts and experiences. Why doesn’t Team provide and IDS? At go diamond a few years back in Atlanta, the Team put up a slide on the screen of about a 6 month income graph of some of the leaders. The largest income for a month was $265, 000. And it was Tim Marks, he told me himself. I must add that is was a month that reflected major ticket sales profit. Let me ask you, why would they not want t team mates to know this?????????? At that point they still had people convinced a majority of their income came from product. If people knew it cam from system they might not be so quick to pony up every month.
Some of you will remember the Monavie seminar in Utah a couple years ago when all the team leaders were trying to get their teams to go to show Dallin how many numbers they were capable of bringing. It was two weeks after a major and the tickets were $125.00. Here’s the kicker. The profit sharer only paid $90 for the tickets from Monavie, well actually the Team office and then sold them to their team mates for $125.00. Does the phrase “it’s not about the money” or “I am here to help you” or “I don’t make money unless you do” come to mind………..the lie’s are staggering…….they have no conscience and worse of all they do all of this claiming to be men of God……..The Bible is very clear on false prophets and about how God will handle the people that mislead is flock in his name………Orrin, Chris, Tim and George are heading for a big fall. I still hold out hope for Bill Lewis…but the way Jackie is always BRAGGING from stage about what they have I doubt he will ever be able to pull away. Speaking of Mrs. Lewis, they always talk about ladies dressing conservatively……..did she not get the memo’s??? I was embarassed more than a few times and what she revealed. Not personal but this was suppose to be a business meeting. Not to mention how my RT up line’s wife ripped on her and many other women about how they dressed…….
Finally~ LHOL, I can’t help but laugh histerically at the ‘act like you are at a funeral’, Really? OMg that is unreal!
They also did that very same thing, when we were still in Quixtar; at a Go-Diamond, flashed it up for about 60 seconds then took it down. They were jacked because people were flashing their camera’s, LOL, now why would that be, Hmm…..?
The IRS would have a hay day and they would probably be taken down if they were investigated! I’m not an attorney but their is a reason they hide this from the masses!They don’t want the ‘donaters’ to know they make that kind of money OFF OF THEM, they would all figure it out and stop donating if they all knew,it is MONEY CHANGING HANDS from the bottom to the top!
They want a ‘million’ followers but definitely don’t want a million leaders to have to pay that money to! I still believe they will never make it to a million. I would say they would have a better chance of showing up on American Greed!
Thanks for sharing and everything you have said boils down to one thing GREED!!! They need to be investigated by the IRS period! The books need to be cracked open, they lie about everything else what would stop them from lying about their income to lets say the IRS! Orrin know doubt owns the leaders he stole from A LOT of money but he can never give back our TIME with our children and families!
I am totally disgusted on your story about the 90 dollar tickets being sold for 125, they deserve to shut down, gougers! All in the name of ‘helping people make money’, ‘getting their dreams/nightmare’ and the worst using God to serve their GREEDY agenda!
Thanks for the laughs, but it is disturbing what they do, and I can’t wait for JUSTICE to be served to the fullest extent of the law!
Yea SYT, it is staggering the amount of lies and deception that go on all in the name of supposedly helping someone. The 90 ticket scam is even worse. The profit sharers had the option of selling the tix at cost and they decided as a group, at least in our up line to turn profit. They obviously had to stick together on this. Maybe one day I will name them them………….One has been back to work after having “retired” 3 times. The other is young and well if someone wants to guess I will answer yea or nay 🙂
This is healing, coming on here and telling our truth. You know one of the books in system that got the least amount of promotion is “There is no such thing as business ethics” I wonder why. They lie so much in the name of profit I really think they are beyond reproach………they are drunk with self righteousness and star struck with themselves.
You know that any leader of a large organization that fell went down the same road as they are on.
As far as getting to a million………….HA……..They can’t get any bigger than they are right now. 5 years ago there were a few people speaking out against them. Now you have ex RT and inner circle individuals that have been burned and burned deeply. These people are not someone disgruntled over not making money. Two of the most credible people in the business left. Don Freeze and Matt Abraham. Ask yourself one question……….Why? Are they complainers, whiners, incapable of building a business………….NOOOOOO. But they were both tight with Orrin………..My vote goes to Don and Matt being Christian and more basically decent men. This is just my personal OPINION of course as their reasons are not know to me but I do have the utmost respect for the both of them.
Use one of Orrins tactics on him…………when you have a question ask why 5 times to get to the answer.
Why aren’t people making money? Here is 100 answers to the question why…
1 They can’t
2 It doesn’t work
3 They lie
4 They lie
5 – 100 They lie…………..
Finally~
It is blatanly obvious to me that the ‘goal’ is NOT to get them to the li(f)e changing event for the sake of helping them in every area of their lives. Once again your story of the 125 ticket scam shows the real motive is greed.
Oh I will play, would it be Steve Morgan? HA!
I agree on the JM book on ethics, I posted on here about that also. If John Maxwell, learned of what Orrin has done to tens of thousands of people, and exploited him for their greedy agenda, and the bad examples they are for the ‘leadership’ industry, I wonder what JM would do? I remember asking Orrin & Laurie about their experience with JM, and then their silence and the look on their face said it all! Something rubbed them wrong and they couldn’t even answer the question. That told me they didn’t hear or get what they wanted ,probably got spanked and convicted with some real leadership. Orrin then stated later that he asked JM how he handles the ‘critics’ and JM told him always, always take the high road! Well, we know he doesn’t follow his leadership.
I agree with your 100 answers! It never ceases to amaze me, watching the actions of those who’s lives revolve around Greed and a bad case of narcissism! This experience alone, has given us first hand knowledge of what happens and what all con’s do. It is like watching the psychology of American Greed in real time! A part of me will never understand it fully, I cannot relate because the things I value the most cannot not be bought or sold for any amount of money. They cannot possibly be thinking about the afterlife and when this catches up, whether it be tommorrow or when they are old, it will show up!
I agree SYT, they can not hide from what they are doing forever.
It’s not surprising what you say about JM. He is a true christian leader and you’re right they probably did not heat what they wanted to hear. Which brings up another question….Do the leaders on Team have ANY friends outside of the MLM industry??? Any trusted confidants? Any one that is close to them? None that I have seen………I wonder why that is……….I know we are all backwards working for a living, going to church to worship for the Lord (not our business) and wasting time on things like family events and barbecue’s where there are people that I no longer feel like I have to “contact”. Every person on my team that left has told me the same thing……….They are relieved…..Oh and richer financially not pouring 500 a month into the giant vacuum know as Team.
No, it is not Steve Morgan…….close on looks though.
They actually got together and decided to charge their team mates 35 dollars more for their tickets to the MV event in Utah………..SCAM Here is another interesting fact, if I did not mention this in my other post. RT and profit sharer’s were fighting over who sold tickets to their downlines for the 35 Bucks!!! So much for ” I not in it for the money” ……… Jerks!!!
Finally, I wonder how many of their teammates would be edifying them if they knew how much money they made from them at one event and the uplines chose to sell them the tickets at a higher price. Not to mention the time and money they spent getting out their.
I can see them now, all in their uplines suite, laughing at the poor suckers. The bigger question is how much did the team pay for the tickets, and make a profit selling them to the uplines, who turn around and mark up the price again.
Speak your truth, what experience did the wizard have with John Maxwell? Have they worked together or are they friends? My guess is no but it sounds like you know about a conversation that took place. It speaks volumes that this leadership guru is not used by anyone else outside of his team. He has no major leaders or organizations that want to be associated with him. Any big time leader that is credible will have other leaders that will associate with them. I mean real big time leaders. If you are a top ten leadership guru of the world you should be running in social circles with some big time people. The only people following Orrin are the ones lured by the promise of money.
Finally~
I have laughed more lately than I have in awhile at the many comments people make on here! I am grateful for all of us coming together, it took a long time to laugh at the garbage these con artist put sooooo many people through.
Nope, no friends ‘outside’ they don’t allow that in cults, even if it is your family, kids, parents, etc…!
RT’s and PF the one’s ‘leading the charge,’ lol, being the examples of living life for excellence?’
Fighting over 35 bucks, really? hmm….sounds like a bunch of christians wanting to make a difference in the lives of a million people. Hope they are giving credit to that amazing ‘leadership developement system’, which F does that fall under? FAILURE? LHOL
free at last~
I have a story for ya, in the beginning (lol) they used to make their own tickets from ordinary stock paper to print the seminar tickets and did this for years, so they never paid a penny, well they didn’t but those who were kind enough to make them did! LOL
Well, it really wasn’t funny especially if you were responsible for buying the paper and printing them, and spending hours printing a cutting them,that would have been us! Can you say ‘loyal suckers!!!’ that is just one example, of the many 100s of thousands we wasted building the lie and in the end to have it all stolen, that is how we were paid back for our loyality!
Orrin or our upline was to stingy and GREEDY to even pay for the paper, let alone the time, and people wonder how they keep their money?
So, if anyone is wondering about the “F-financial’ advice and how to be a MILLIONAIRE, well you steal, cheat, and don’t pay for anything, let all the loyal suckers pay for your suites, and lifestyles!
Amazing about the tickets being printed for “free” because you know, you are supposed to be helping your Team! Yeah! Fired Up! NOT!!!
I remember being pressured by my Upline to help out at Seminars, it was my “turn”! Think this one through, we helped these people make money and had to pay our $25.00 to get in just like every one else did! I still laugh at a couple of things; that I was gullible enough to do this, and that they had the audacity to be such scheming blood suckers..calculate the loot they haul in off just one monthly seminar, and here we are, little robots, helping for free. Oh Ick!
I remember being put to work in the Tool Room recording sales. Boy does the cash fly through the back room, it was phenominal to see what was being raked in. That was when I got a big clue, and left within 6 months. The Tool Rooms are a virtual printing press for money, as people get into a mode of “this tool will put me over the top”.
Years later, if I listen to their blabbing rhetoric online, I just can’t believe I fell for it, wow! I mean, actually listen to a few of their featured speakers, they just blab, no content, pure hyperboyle and blab i tis. If you really dissect what they are actually telling you, how to build the business (what business) they are talking in circles.
I say we take a vote..how does your seminar experience rate, which is more exciting to you, going to their seminar, or, choose from the list below.. tell me which is more rewarding and exciting!! Which activity actually accomplishes something?
Watching paint dry, or a seminar
Picking up dog poop in your yard, or a seminar
Cleaning the cat litter box, or a seminar
Cleaning the gutters, or a seminar (now being in the gutter could be true for both)
Spending time with family, or a seminar
Spending the money you saved by not buying the ticket for the seminar on your family, or a seminar
Going for a hemrhoid check, or a seminar (this one could be close, as they are both a pain in the butt)
Second poll
Which is more exciting, and in the long run works better…
Going to an Open or going out for Ice Cream with your kids
Buying tools you need at the hardware, or going to the Tool room at a seminar
Looking people in the eye and telling them they can make money if they do the work, so join up, save your spot,
or,
going to work and bringing home a paycheck for a good days work,
Eating trash food at a seminar
or
eating dinner together with Family
Well, the choice was clear for me!
Just thinking…Maybe there is a reason their new “deal” starts will all F’s..It may be a freudian slip! Maybe its the biggest F of all. Or, it could be the worst F over for all the masses…
Man this is really really fun…………In a healing sort of way LOL
Okay, time to talk about the LLR book. Best selling author me behind!!!! Our up line organized more than one event to buy LLR books so that we could win a contest to have.drum roll please………….Chris and Terri Brady come in and talk to us and sign copies of their book. Now it takes 100,00o copies I believe for a book to become a best seller. Now follow me here. I know our team bought multiple copies of the book just to get a little closer to a rock star…..now other teams were conned into doing the same thing. So after months of orchestration and a couple weeks of focused buying of the LLR book Orrin and Chris become Best selling author’s. They didn’t sell thousands of books to thousands of people they sold tens of thousands of books to team mates.Period!!! I doubt 5% of those books got sold outside of Team. I still remember Orrin’s talk when he was overwhelmed at the thought of becoming a best selling author. What a fraud. Does that mean if I go and buy an NFL superbowl ring that I can run around and tell everyone how I am a super bowl champ?? I mean it’s the same thing. I would like to be a fly on the wall at a PC meeting when they go at each other.
I am sickened by this whole Team scam. They are liars cheats and well……..we all know. I just wonder what all the underlings will do when this collapses. Kirk Birtles, Hogar, Dan Hawkins, all the guy’s that are not millionaires are going to have to go back to work. I remember Jim Martin talking on his CD about how much he hated plumbing………..I hope he kept his tools. What about some of the other guy’s that don’t have millions put away or invested??? Will Orrin help them …………..NOOOOO He will have to spend every penny he has fighting the future lawsuits for poor financial advice or defending himself against the IRS. I mean by their own admission the only way to make money is with Team…….Everything else sucks, right? How bout all the Canadien’s will Claude hire all of them to clean his house???
I agree SYT this is a hoot. Especially hearing the truth from someone like yourself.
Thank you!! 🙂
Arturo~
I am really not sure how the meeting details were worked out, that was never said. Maybe Orrin paid to have special time with him? You know how they always would say they would pay someone successful thousands of dollars to have an hour of their time. I am not sure how Orrin weaseled his way in, but I remember Tim & Amy and Chris & Teri also were there. Orrin also went to some professional ball game with JM.
I doubt they are friends from the look on their faces when I asked how it went, it was a pretty good sign to me there wasn’t something right about the whole thing and Orrin wasn’t bragging about the experience either, which you would think as much as they promote John Maxwell, they would have blasted that on every stage.
I also had someone on my team who went to a church JM was attending and speaking at and that person asked JM if he knew Orrin. He said yes, that was it, hmm….. Never was exuberant about promoting that top 10 guru, ORRIN, I am sure JM was just real tired and didn’t have much to say that day. Of course this person was ‘excited’ when they asked JM the question! LOL
You are right, there is no big time leader in the world that promotes him, the ‘lifer’ was recently on and talked about how Art Jonak is in awe over Orrin’s leadership (my interpretation, but not far off, lol) I guess he thought we should all fall down and worship Orrin at that point because Art liked him, and “Art is the man” but we know that didn’t happen. LOL
I could be wrong but I have never seen John Maxwell promote Orrin anywhere, not in any book, or video, and certainly not as one of the top 10 leadership guru’s.
That seems to always come from someone either inside the team, or Orrin has became new buddies with from inside the industry that all of sudden begins to promote him.
Funny how that works. 🙂
If they only knew.
Yes, Yes, we have all been worked to the bone for free, just like the cults do, too bad we couldn’t turn it into the child labor board! We have a lot of hispanic people who came to our town (I cannot be certain as fact) but pretty sure they might not have a green card yet, lol and they are paid waaaayyyy more than any of us because we worked like good little brainwashed loyalist, for FREE!!
You guys are killin me! There is nothing like a good deep belly, laugh out loud experience, and I don’t even care if the neighbors hear, LOL! I seriously am laughing out loud at the Choices you gave, ‘the truth hurts’!
No wonder why I have felt better since I came on this blog and wait for it….. the best part is it is FREE! LHOL! 🙂
Glad your back webelieved, thought maybe you were becoming a thumb-sucker, Just kidding, LHOL Miss seeing your post!!!! 🙂
OH MY AMTHRAX, I believe you just hit 1000 comments on this thread, hehehehe!!! 🙂
Finally~ It just seems so unfair you got a ‘book signing’ lol. WE sold thousands in our group and got no such thing. I am going to look back and see if I can find exactly how many were sold through our group.
Yea, the Martins, Stroghs(sp?), and Darlangelo, didn’t they ALL go Diamond, yep pretty sure they did; once. Don’t see them as PC’s now, do you suppose it is due to all that exsplosive growth?
You guys are really pumping me up, I’m thinking about re-joining, well, I was until I read webelieve’s comments then I realized how depressing it really is! Thank God, we are out!!
Sorry, should say Darkangelo.
The Truth Hurts;
I too have thought how much better our lives have become since leaving Team. Even to the point of thinking of some “X” rated ideas to do to myself that would feel better than attending anything to do with Team. Lol. I mentioned earlier on another post that it has been great to go to all of my two sons baseball games, band concerts, and being able to sit down as a family and have dinners together. I took one of my boys to college out of the area last fall, and I don’t think we would have been able to visit as often as we would have liked had we still been involved with Team. At first as Tuesdays went by, I used to think, “oh another Tuesday we are not attending,” but soon after, that passed also. Now we don’t even think about a Tuesday Open or any other silly meeting.
What about the Van Buskirks? Whats up with them? Now there was a truly humble couple. I always thought they were genuine. My guess is that they are out due to the shit-smear that the system has become. I hope i’m right…
IQ, the van buskirks are still in
Well then… I guess my interpretations were way off-base. Unless someone can give me a better explanation for continuing on with the deception.
Wow – I looked up Eriksonian Hypnosis because I didn’t know what it meant. The handshake technique brought back a memory of my upline telling us to always make sure you shake hands with a prospect but then interrupt it somehow. Like,you use your finger to touch their palm or wrist slightly because that will make them remember you and want to know more about what you said to them. I always thought it was an intersting concept but couldn’t bring myself to do it in real life because I thought it would creep people out more than anything. Anyways the creep factor just keeps growing with all the posts I read. I can’t believe I was a part of this and left in the dark about what it really was all these years. I too thought many people were genuine and humble. Wrong.
I found the handshake hypnosis bit on wikipedia. I do think this is about power and control, and an overcompensation for a huge sense of worthlessness without having a lot of material things to feel fulfilled, but it’s never enough. The fear of losing all of it is where the need to control people comes in.
Steve (Peachy)~
What a wonderful life of excellence it is; to spend time doing special things with your children, family , and friends, without having to cancel every important thing that only happens sometimes once in their lives, as you have said about going to your son’s college for the first time, and then visiting more.
Team lifers ‘priorities’ revolve around EVERY Tue night, and 1 weekend a month, and a 4-5 days every quarter! Then all the rest of your time is spent on Contact, STP. Follow up, get people started, repeat, paperwork,taxes, read ‘their’ controlled books, listening to cd’s of the week and rotating the top 50, then dvd’s, video’s, going to ‘super opens’,
They tell people they live their priorities, that is NOT TRUE, they LIVE the business, and the priorities are scheduled accordingly! Do they really believe people aren’t sacrificing their children’ and families on a continuous basis? They are dellusional, we missed so many birthdays, children school events, weddings, parents, and family get togethers there should be a law against the time this lie robbed us, our children, and families.
At least 99% of the lifers are missing out on everything in their llves that create the special moments and memories with their children and families, if they would look at their schedules and be brutually honest with themselves on how many nights and hours they have spent with other people’s families and children, then they would be shocked.
They are buying into this is ‘only temporary’ that is a BIG LIE, you can NEVER stop building the business, you constantly are building to replace and Orrin will never allow you to quit building and collect on the passive, residual income!
There is no such thing in the LI_E training!
SYT
Thanks for sharing. There are many instances when we all sacrificed our family time, so many that they tend to blend together. One of those times sticks in my memory that it galls me to this very day. I was the assistant coach of my boys house league hockey team, and we were scheduled to go away for their only road trip of the year. This trip was scheduled for the end of the year send off so it had been planned well in advance. Well the week before this trip my upline scheduled Tim Marks to come and speak to our group on Saturday night. I began trying to figure out how I could do both. It was a four hour drive back and forth but I was determined. So maybe I could miss a game or two. what would it matter? Then one of my downlines scheduled two house plans at his place for Friday night, and Saturday afternoon, so we wouldn’t miss Tim. I decided to stay back and not go to the hockey tournament at all, so I can do these house plans for my downline. As the story goes both, house plans get no-showed, and it wasn’t worth hearing the same thing from Tim that I had heard many times before. What a shame, and I did this to be lied to and cheated later.
Steve – Your story actually brought back a flood of memories for me! I think I just threw up in my own mouth! What a brutal waste of time, and missed opportunity that you can never get back! That’s the thing that gets me when I look back at those years in my life. They are gone forever. My kids will never be that age again….I missed out on so much….for what? A LIE! Thanks for sharing that story…..you are not alone!
“They tell people they live their priorities, that is NOT TRUE, they LIVE the business, and the priorities are scheduled accordingly! Do they really believe people aren’t sacrificing their children’ and families on a continuous basis? They are dellusional, we missed so many birthdays, children school events, weddings, parents, and family get togethers there should be a law against the time this lie robbed us, our children, and families.”
You are so right SYT, in fact I have spoken to people that have worked for the PC and to others that confirm the PC kids aren’t as excited about their lives and the PC would have you think. And I quote “we never really spend that much time with our Dad (Orrin). He is always in his office on the phone or people are staying over or he is speaking somewhere. We got nice stuff though” Like Orrin say’s himself, there are always 3 sides to a story and we only ever hear his. Not to mention how many of the wives would rather not do the business. Women are way more in tune to how the team damages a family than men are.
It cracks me up how the standard for everyone else outside of Team is ripped on by them. I can’t tell you how many times I heard it said from stage ” I had breakfast with my kid today, or we were sent pictures of so and so with their kid in the middle of the day………….Well let me ask them this, how many of the leaders tuck their kids in bed at night????? You see they may spend more time during the day with them but the guy’s that do honest work spend the evenings with them…..They paint a picture that looks like they are the only ones that have a great life…not so. In fact the lives they have ruined with their distorted view of reality far out weighs any good that has come from their system. I personally did benefit from some of the training and the principles taught…….but when the actions of the leaders contradicted the principles the spewed on stage it was time to go.
Another sad truth is how they continually try to coerce the relationship between team mates and mentor. I never shared any truly private stuff with my “mentor”. The reason being (and I have said this before) is that I heard way too many private things about my team mates to ever tell anything about myself. Let me just name a few things that I heard about others in our mentoring sessions..
– A guy was addicted to porn.
– A guy was having sex with hookers and not with his wife
– A guy could only have sex with his wife under certain conditions, (I am refraining from naming the conditions cuz someone else might figure out who this was)
– A man was so pathetic in his parenting his daughter was caught up in drugs and illicit behavior.
– A couple was losing their house and the pathetic husband would not just go out and get a job, any job.
– One guy was a turbo 25 and he was lucky that they built his second leg for him. All the while they edified this guy in public.
– Eating disorders
– Personality issues
and on and on and on.
Now I will say I am guilty of many of these same things in my life. As far as the Team is concerned we were looking to these people for guidance and they are making Cd’s and speaking from stage and being edified from stage because they are supposedly above this kind of behavior…………….What I Have learned is that my Pastor is the only one I would trust with any of my personal info and for guidance. Being a leader does not qualify these guys for anything other than showing the plan and the rest of the 5 step pattern…
Here is a snapshot of a downline Gold and he has been edified as a turbo 50.
Achvd. Rank: GOLD
Enrolled: ..
Left Leg Count: 151 Right Leg Count: 915
L. Leg Team Vol: 300.00 R. Leg Team Vol: 3,250.00
L. Leg Total Vol: 359 R. Leg Total Vol: 1,565,310
Here is one of a downline silver
Achvd. Rank: SLVR
Enrolled:
Left Leg Count: 114 Right Leg Count: 790
L. Leg Team Vol: 655.00 R. Leg Team Vol: 2,595.00
L. Leg Total Vol: 664 R. Leg Total Vol: 1,410,266
I have removed any identifying information but if I told you their names You would know them. This is the explosive growth……….these guys go PP all the time but no net increase in their business.
Now I ask you how can you be in the business for 3 years, be a high turbo and produce volume as low as this????? Wow can I re-sign up????
Wasn’t Monavie and Team like peanut butter and chocolate??? If I were peanut butter and chocolate I would sue them for defamation……………
MV was never the master plan. The lawsuit was taking way longer that O anticipated so they needed something where their Teams had the potential of making money. MV was that answer. Were any of you ever told this?? Orrin used Dallin and Dallin used Orrin. I have been told as recently as June that team wasn’t going to be doing much business with MV because of the launching o f LIFE. Another lie. I was told that all the legal work and the pay plan was ready to go, have you seen it yet??? Their MO is to always have the next big thing being revealed at the next Major. This keeps people not wanting to miss out on the opportunity of a life time and keeps them on system even thought they are not making squat………….I look back now and recall how many times we were told that this is them best we have ever seen it….man you have got to build your business big now cuz at the next major we are going to tell you about how much better it is going to get………yeah right. Bill Lewis was the best at this especially at the Thursday night bronze meetings. I guess if the next thing was gonna make the current thing look like crap, we were in crap…………yes?? Don’t get me wrong, I love Bill Lewis. He is a guy I think I could still, after all I know hang out with. He is what I have heard called an economic hostage to the business. I do not agree with their methods at all but I do understand their whole reason for speaking not to teach but to convince you to stay around for the next major in the hopes you might show the plan to someone that understands it is solely based on getting 99 % of the people in and on system so that the 1% of the leaders can make money off of all who aren’t. That is the only way it works. And they know it.
Steve~
I am sorry to hear that, and what is tragic is this is more the rule than the exception for us all. I know that we NEVER had any of our childrens Birthday parties on their actual birthdays the entire time we were in because they happened to fall on the usually scheduled seminars, go diamond, and majors. We bought into this as it was ok to celebrate them on another day because we were going to get it all back when we were financially free.
This creates a lot anger, for few reasons; first it is a LIE, the business consumes our lives and then we had to hurt our children every year, they might as well been born on different days.
In, normal life this may happen once in a while due to other circumstances, but not every Single B-day! We would miss family get togethers, class reunions, sporting events and tournaments, wouldn’t even put our children in some events we knew would be on Tues.
It is an outrage that they steal the better part of your lives all while promoting it is only temporary, that when you will make bucket loads of money, you will get all what you missed back, and someone tens of thousands fall for this LIE!
They bash everything that would take your time, that you spend time for money to make a living, but building the lie robs you of every second of your life! It is all sold on the false hope that ‘someday’ 2-5 years down the road you will be able to spend ALL your time with your children and family!
This is an outrageous LIE, over 99% will end up never making a profit and will have lost more precious time than anything else you could have done! The higher up you get the more TIME & MONEY YOU LOSE! My advise DON’T fall for the LIE, it will rob, steal, and cheat your family out of the most precious thing they want….TIME with you! You will not get it back nor will they Ever deliver on their promises of passive, residual ongoing ‘B-type’ income, they will steal that from you too, because there is no such thing! You own Nothing!
DON’T FALL FOR THE CARROT ON THE STICK!!!
Finally~
Thanks, what a disgrace this lie is! I could also, and maybe will, show the same stuff you are, it is the rule, not the exception to the grandest lie ever~ Orrin/PC and their fake and hyped up lies they spread like about growth and they are above all things as it is fact!
They show no shame nor humility and quoting someone I recently spoke to there is a place in hell for those who do this kind of damage to humanity! They are always trying to buy more time, they are desperate and disgusting! We all know they are fazing out MV, I don’t care what BS comes out of their mouths, we will see ‘auto-ships’ drop and eventually it will go away. Dallin is a fool if he doesn’t see what Orrin is doing, all of us know he is using Dallin, until he no longer needs him. I agree with you and Bill being in economic hostage, I have heard Orrin sold him his ‘spanish mansion’ that would definitely trap him.
I am totally appalled at the ‘mentoring sessions’! It is the ‘confession’ that cults require, for you to tell them everything then they will find your weakness and use it against you!
Thanks for sharing.
I understand that the Martin’s are doing the Battle Creek seminar next month. This is odd because from what I have been told 3/4 of one of their teams just walked away. There was a 60% drop in their tix. How would that qualify them to speak? I thought you put the best of the best on stage. Or maybe is it that their numbers are down so they need the check from a seminar to help out??? I know they were on the Q lawsuit so maybe that loyalty gained them some favor. I guess this is first hand again how it’s not the numbers you post that qualifies you for anything but the favor you’ve gained with the policy council. I also think it is to show the remainder of their team that the PC still backs them even though after 10 years in the business they are going backwards……………Fired up!! Can we join!!! Or should I put a sharp stick in my eye as it would be less painful…………..
Well, they better ‘martinize’ themselves, Ha! Not that I wish anything bad on the martin’s, there are a lot of people I did like when I was a part of it, but there isn’t one of them I respect now, because they stayed and continue KNOWING the corruption and continue to try and fake out the masses with flat out lies, half-truths and will do anything to make others believe they are a part of something going to get them financially free, or they are a part of a noble cause!
Ruining and lying to people is NOT noble! It is just wrong, period!
The lie is catching up and it is rather sad to see that people work their guts out for nothing, including all of us! It really is too bad that the longer you lie to yourself ; ‘cover-up’ the truth and don’t face reality, the more pain you cause others and yourself!
It is astounding how ‘greed’ blinds and convinces you no matter WHAT; you will succeed.
I call it stupidity and denial and don’t care how many ‘positive’ statements you plaster on every mirror, refridgerator, an wall in your house, when the facts show you are failing; you are failing! They are all trapped in the vicious circle of trying to regain growth that is impossible and insanity for them to think if they keep doing what they are doing they will get different results.
IT AIN’T GONNA HAPPEN!!!! YOU CAN’T TAKE YOUR (CRAPPIER) OLD SELF INTO A BRIGHT (SUPPOSED) Future/” BRAND NEW INDUSTRY”~ IS WHAT ORRIN IS CALLING IT?
Really, Orrin, How have you deluded yourself on this one? You haven’t changed a damn THING, except the NAME that you try an hid your old scam of almost 2 decades! We already know he changes the PROFIT-SHARING when ever he feels like it!
Great in sights SYT and as usually you are right on.
I think you are right, the lie’s are catching up with them. It used to be a few people were talking about what they were all about and the was pretty easy to deflect and difuse. now you have Team checks out there that tell the truth about what thy pay out. People from the inner circle that got cheated and they are now telling their story so what are they gonna do??? Slander and paint them as liars and quitters. Well we already handled that……..The end is near for Team Life…………Sad but true…………actually not sad at all 🙂
Finally~ You need to check out Oron’s blog & video, it is exactly what he has been spewing since Amway, NOTHING has change! Watch his body language when he is lying, and it is the ‘WHAT IF’ SSDD! They had the audacity to put in their brochure that there is a lot of HALF-TRUTHS out there!!!! Unbelievable.
(I am going to use this spelling (Oron) for Orrin from now on because it rhymes with Enron and I was told every time we put his name in a post it helps rank his site, can anyone confirm this, if so none of us should use his real spelling)
What a fraud, with an extreme case of narcissism. He says they are going to BE THE EDUCATION FOR AMERICA???? HOLY CRAP! I don’t want my children or anyone of my friends children anywhere near ‘their education’ LHOL
Seriously there is so much I could comment on, but he acts like AMERICA’S EDUCATION has already collapsed and they are going to save the day. The guy has lost his freaking mind. He mentions 2 of the (TOP 15 Guru’s meaning him & brady) now what the heck is that?
I thought it was 10, 25, & 30, guru; now 15??? Can’t they decided what sounds better or is people retracting their votes, LHOL
A Note To Orrin…
I know that you read this blog…I know that you are most likely pulling your hair and crapping your pants. Remember when you had TEAM and then the entire Home Office read Good To Great? Well, guess what the good folks here on this wonderful blog learned from that..sadly you did not.
Here’s where we are at on this blog – “In order to get the flywheel moving, you must push it. Its progress is slow; your consistent efforts may only move it a few inches at first. Over time, how-ever, it becomes easier to move the flywheel, and it rotates with increasing ease, carried along by its momentum. The breakthrough comes when the wheels own heavy weight does the bulk of the work for you, with an almost unstoppable force.”
More and more people are coming forward to share their experiences with your fraud of a company..and we are gaining unstoppable momentum.
Orrin, I’m going to share with you where you are at right now with your “business” (insert chuckle, snort, cough here” You sir, felt that you knew better. You took a company and Stopped the Flywheel, went into a new direction, (see fad) have now seen disappointing results, and fail to understand why..(or refuse) which causes you to react poorly, (some leader guru you are) and now you’re headed to another “new direction”. In short Orrin, you are in the “Doom Loop”…here’s a hint Orrin. You are in the Doom Loop if –
Karma, Orrin, Karma…have fun in the Doom Loop…
Note – (This really isn’t for you Orrin, you won’t listen, cause, hey you’re a GURU…it’s for the new guy..Each One Reach One…..)
Editor’s Note: Improved readability of this comment.
Fly~ KABOOM, WAABAM and as our good friend Will states BOOM GOES THE DYNAMITE!! Thanks for the laughs!
On a serious note, I couldn’t agree more on the flywheel! Enough people with the right heart, who care about others, will win everytime, over someone who lies, deceives, steals, and cheats people for their own financial gain! Keep doin what your doin! 🙂
Fly, that was bloody brilliant!
The camping manager is indeed in the doom loop and it is his own doing. It is interesting that we can re-read Good To Great by Jim Collins now, and see how the book serves as a clear program guide to the show we get to watch on a daily basis: Orrin’s train wreck of a business.
The bullet points you listed state it all.
The flywheel is about to roll right on over Orrin’s sorry ass, leaving tooth marks in his chest. Soon the party will be over…
Then we can really celebrate!
I’ve been reading this, and I’m still wishing that those I know will leave TEAM. About a month ago, my husband overheard my former upline talk to someone at the Sunday Night supper soup kitchen about joining MV/TEAM. A freaking soup kitchen of all places. (She’s one of the ministry leaders.) Hubby and his mother tells me not to say anything to “keep the peace”, so I’m not saying anything to anyone.
I’m seeing form the posts here and Juice Scam that TEAM and MV are on their last leg, I suppose I’m impatient to see the 2 empires come crashing down. I’ve been having dreams of being stuck in the business, or being pressured to join the business, and waking up depressed. A part of me is hoping what I’m reading here is right, and another part of me is doubtful, thinking that evil will prevail.
I know I haven’t been posting much, I’ve been dealing with so much guilt and trying to push things out of my mind. But when I had that awful dream last night about TEAM members pressuring me and Hubby and my husband’s mother to commit to the business, I just had to come back on and see what’s going on in TEAM Land.
It is interesting that the number 1 guy in MV, Brig Hart sold his spot. I have also heard that Dallin sold out his shares. Either way MV it’s on it’s way down, too expensive. I wonder what the distributors would do if they knew it only costs 6 Bucks to make a bottle of juice………….yes fans that is 6 dollars………so much for all the cost to make a superior product……….Remember Larry Van Buskirks cd on how much it costs to produce MV…..If 6 bucks is a lot, by the way it is the cost of a CD, then they weren’t lying……..
Orrin and Co. are economic hostages to Team, they will say and do anything to keep it going. When I look back at the lawsuit and all the lie’s and stupid stuff I fell for I want to puke.
Question for Orrin: So Orrin, when exactly did a man of your supposed knowledge of business, the Bible and how to make money figure out Quixtar was a pyramid?? I mean you defended it on a BUNCH of Cd’s, at seminar’s, Men’s Leadership and in a thousand living rooms but you didn’t figure it out till the lawsuit???? So Orrin were you lying? All the millions of previous times you defended it or were you lying in your court filed documents?
On that alone you can disregard anything further Orrin say’s about LIFE the business, or life in general because that proves that he will do anything to protect his financial interests.
While I am at it, if I hear one more guy from Team blame their small checks on the lawsuit I think I will puke on them…….Really??? The lawsuit was against Orrin, Chris, Tim and a few others. How does that affect a turbo 25’s check?? Were they actually raiding profit sharers checks to pay for a lawsuit they filed?? Any one remember Orrin saying he would drain every bank account he had to pay for the lawsuit on principle?? In the end he got hit for 12.5 Million, Brady 9.5 million and Marks 3.5 million. Tim also got hit for blogging against a court order for a little under $60,000.00. So much for character. A judge gave a gag order and they all violated it. The others in the lawsuit got hit for about $2,500.00 Chuck and Nancy Cullen filed bankruptcy. By the way this is all public record, I have a copy of the court order. Oh and let’s not forget that they borrowed the money to pay off the lawsuit from Dallin himself……………Never heard that from stage…….did Ya? hehehehe
@finally – echoing @webelieve, can you clarify your comments about Brig Hart selling his “spot” and Dallin selling his shares?
I read about Brig, can’t remember where, it was a network marketing article. The Dallin one I have not been able to confirm.
Amthrax, I think Finally is referring to this article?
http://www.businessforhome.org/2011/06/brig-harts-r3global-sold-cashing-out/
I wonder why it was kept so hush hush…maybe because if Brig is bailing out (so much for supporting his beloved distributors) it would mean catastrophe if his adoring sheep suddenly lost faith & quit as well?
See, I know what the response will be…it is just business and Dallin is a businessman after all…the problem with that he PRETENDS to be much more than that. He pretends to care about his followers and building a community with the money that they will all make. He acts as if he is their personal Pastor and will be there for them through thick and thin. He portrays a benevolence and loyalty that doesn’t exist and that is what makes this sick and twisted. A truly good and honorable leader would “go down with the ship”, not so for Dallin…he is like “see ya later suckas!!” . He is egotistical, suffers from delusions of grandeur and above all is simply a greedy bastard, just like Orrin. It is just really sad that they have managed to convince people otherwise and these people have practically laid down their lives for these men, figuratively speaking.
I read some of the comments under the article and they are saying that Brig sold it to himself…that he sold it so they could merge the two companies (MV and R3G) and that he is “not leaving MV without a casket”. Really? You distributors really believe that he would go broke supporting this company and you all?
I don’t know what the actual truth is but we know that sales haven’t gone up, they have gone down substantially over the last couple of years, so the whole “if it ain’t broke, don’t fix it” theory doesn’t apply.
Things that make you go hmmmmmm….
Are you saying the MV juice sales have been going down for a couple of years? When I joined MV in August 2009 the sales were climbing, so what my former upline told me. Perhaps the sales started to decrease just after the EMV drinks were launched, then….
From what I see they are creating their own combined SYSTEM BUSINESS, ‘MVP’ that MV is rolling out in January. That is an international ‘training’ where supposedly all the big leaders are in ‘unity’ to do this together only now it appears Dallin will get his cut. Hmmm…. maybe because that is where the REAL $$$$ has Always been!
No different than Amway and is how they brainwash you to keep buying their stuff.
@humiliated – A couple more former Black Diamonds and leaders in R3Global have recently left for Visalus. I’ll be preparing a followup post on that. I now remember reading this article about Brig selling his company; unfortunately, it was pretty light on the facts. About a year ago, the company did close down its Irvine office, which lead me to believe that the SoCal business had been contracting.
@Speak and all – I wrote about MVP in this post: https://amthrax.wordpress.com/2011/06/30/monavie-mvp-training-for-international-distributors/
FINALLY
I just had to post to tell you what I read on your post concerned me, and, just maybe I can pass along to you some of the best advice I ever received. Years ago, I met with Eric Scheibeler who was in town with Steve Hasan, who wrote Combatting cult mind control, among other wonderful books. I can remember saying to him that I didn’t really think T was as bad as the rest of the bunch, I thought he had been my friend. I’ll never forget his response, he looked me right in the eyes and said “if you think that way then they still have you”. The talk I had with Eric afterwards was amazing, and he helped me to see that even though I had been out a few months, the clog was still in my head, and I needed help to get through it. Finally, after feeling like a loser for some time, and suffering from total ostracizing once I left, I did heal. I read Steve’s books, and of course, Eric’s chiiling story which can only open eyes.
When I left, there were no blogs like this, so I was alone. My upline deserted me, my downline deserted me, people I had gotten into the business acted like I was a leper, and I left Berean Church over it, after trying to talk to Pastor about it more than once. I was also threatened in my own home on two occasions by one of my Upline, I’ll never forget it..because that threat is exactly what made me able to move forward. I kept thinking about what Eric and Steve had said, all the while standing in my home while this man I thought had been a friend threatened to ruin me to my face. Unbelievable. Well, I did get fired up, and I got on with my life, picked up the pieces and moved forward. I suffered financial devastation, just like the rest of you, too.
I also should caution all of you; Eric warned me a lot of people get right into another MLM, and I was no exception. Finally, what I did come to realize is that my usually business thinking mind was muddled, I call it the 95% clog from all the system tapes/cd’s I had listened to which had seemed to suspend my critical thinking some how, and the effects were long lasting even when I was out. I remember years ago, I found Scott Larsen’s website, and I looked at it and thought, wow, wait a minute! I asked my upline, and they disparaged this man terribly (not a very Christian attitude) and said they cared about me, they would never lie to me about this, so I suspended my critical thinking, of course, by that point the “love bombing” and being so palsy walsy had long been going on..this is how they start to own you, a piece at a time. What an awful way to use people for your own end, like vultures. Come to think of it, Hyenas are better than they were to me!
The bottom line is simply this; don’t be fooled into thinking your former upline is a hostage, economic or otherwise. To do the right thing takes courage. It is far easier to be bad than it is to be good, and they do know exactly what they are doing, no matter how pretty the wrapping they put on it. How long would it take you to get it that only 1% or less are making any money in your business, as in net profit?
These wolves have big teeth, and hide them well, but the word is getting out, because you can only have masses of people losing money so long.
I’m not surprised about a slander marathon, one lady from Hubby’s church was deemed as silly because she was doing research on acai berry and Alex Schauss, and when she left TEAM for her personal reason she was cast off as “she didn’t want to be successful” type thing. I imagine that’s what they all said about me, probably stuff like “Izzy didn’t put all of her self into the business” or “Izzy didn’t want to be successful”. You can be sure that negative talk will always be there if someone quits.
thank you for all of this before i really got into this. I have a friend that was telling me about and i met up with his “mentor” to tell me about it. So far all i wasted was a couple of hours. But all i told them was maybe because it seemed very questionable to me. So i did some research online and stumbled across this website. I saw that this “system” requires a person to invest a lot of money before a person would even begin to make some kind of money. But to maintain a flow of income one has to buy more things. With this i concluded that more money was invested than received. Again i would like to thank all of you guys for sharing your stories before i got myself into deep “turd” =)
also i would like some advice to deny this friend the offer to join but nicely deny where he won’t thing im a jerk because the way they were getting me to join was very manipulating. They have good intentions but i saw through the system.
@Finally, is this paragraph I quote from you 100%, undeniably true? Do you have evidence to back up this statement? If not, you are going way out on a limb making a statement like this. I am neither pro or con Team, merely trying to gather evidence that will lead to a conclusion.
Thanks, Brent Hansen
[Editor’s Note: Indented quoted text for better readability]
@ The Truth Hurts, my bad, didn’t scroll up far enought to get your real handle…@Finally…hahaha, I crack myself up. Thanks again!
@The Truth Hurts, great post! I have heard that some of the people that are staying are economic hostages. What else can they do, go out and get a real job. While it must be hard to leave, if in fact you are making money. But, at what price, what is your character worth?
For me no amount of money is worth it to sell my soul to the devil. I would rather be broke than make my living telling people lies.
I’m happy for anybody that sees the truth and gets out of team. I also struggle with wanting to contact everyone I know that is still in, to let them know what I do. Some might believe me others might not.
[Editor’s Note: More more discussion about economic hostages, read the post Ex-TEAM: Would You Have Stayed In?]
Manipulative as in i know these people. Because they get friends and family to contact you, my friends are trying to get me to join saying that it really does work and to trust them. So what i mean is through emotional manipulation i feel bad and feel like i should just join to make them happy. The people trying to get me on TEAM, i am very close with. The way they get people to join is very similar to how CUTCO works. Another scam that i was almost a part of. My sister says if a job requires you to put out a lot of money before you can make a lot of money, its a scam.
people like to compare TEAM/MV/LIFE to a college student going to school. Saying that one has to put in money like a student paying for tuition. What they don’t understand is that I dont’ have that much money to put into this system in the first place while paying for college. They say that the system will help pay for itself and that if i do everything right i would be making money…….
also on the manipulation, maybe its subconscious to my friends. Their probably just unknowingly doing. I do trust them because they are my friends but i just know that i would be losing so much money if i did this.
Brent, what exactly are you questioning? I took the figures right our of the judgement in the Q lawsuit. It was there in black and white, the amounts the anonymous blogging. Look it up, you can read it for your self. The Dallin loaning them the money was told to me by many in Team and out. So again I must ask what you are questioning as my “proof”
The stories on here do not have to be exaggerated. None of us know each other, at least I do not know anyone else, yet we all have the same stories with different up lines. People come on here and ask for proof…………I lived it. Let me ask those in doubt of what we say: Where is Teams proof that this works? If you let them tell it all they can say is people that don’t make it are not doing the work or spending enough on tools and their own policy council actually proves our point that it does not work. 8 people out of over a 100,000 that moved through team are making it big??? That is less than the 1% people are giving them credit for on here.
No, if you want proof, look it up, I did. If you want to prove me wrong or misinformed go ahead. I will admit if I am wrong, but I read the lawsuit judgement and still have a copy. Orrin and others on the PC intimidate through their supposed superior ability to relate and be business men. Yet the only business they have ever mad any substantial money in is MLM. They call themselves Gurus and leaders yet no one outside the MLM industry agrees. Any list they end up on is voted on by their team mates and all the books they sold were sold to people involved with Team. It is like going to a pawn shop and buying a pawned super bowl ring and telling everyone how great your played. It is not real, and if they had to tell the truth to every recruit they would not have any of what they have.
My comment about economic hostage was meant in this respect. They will lie, cheat and tell anyone they can make it even know they understand that the chances are nill to maintain the money flow. I was not giving them a way out or an excuse. They chose it, do it and maintain the lies all for the lifestyle they have accumulated and will protect at all costs. I apologize if that did not originally come out that way.
Further more I do not believe they have the respect for one another they portray on stage. I have heard Brady first hand comment on things Orrin was doing as far as teaching how to build MV that shocked me. Only because I thought they were on the same page as what and how to build teams. George Guzzardo never taught his teams “Six This” Remember that crap???? If it was crap, why didn’t they tell us??? We looked like fools doing it and were made to feel even worse if we couldn’t get it to work yet some of the biggest leaders in team would not even teach it to their teams. If it was so great, like they claimed at the time why are they not still doing it?? Another lie they portray as to what it takes to build the business…
@Poor College Student – Your objective and critical thinking skills have served you well! You are right to run from this thing, and the method they are using to get you “in”, is as old as time! They will call it “relationship marketing”, however they are being taught to approach people who they have the most “influence” with. That means if someone close to you is in the “business”, even if he is the newest person, he will bring you to someone “upline”, and use your close friend’s credibility to bring you into the fold! Very successful method by the way, and still used all the time! My suggestion at this point for you is to politely decline their offer to get involved and simply point out that your time and money are dedicated to your studies, and other responsibilities. They will try to “help” you work though the time and money “objections” by using lines like “we all work together”, and “wouldn’t you rather use 1% of 100 people’s time, rather than 100% of your own time” , but just smile and nod though their attempts! Stick to your guns, politely decline, and what ever you do DON’T buy a ticket to the next seminar or attend an “Open Meeting”. This is your “next step”, and will be heavily promoted to you! This is important…..don’t challenge them, or try to “save them” if you want to maintain your relationship with them! Trust me…it will get ugly quickly! You will be branded a “Dream Stealer” with a “Negative Attitude”. If you tell them about what you read on this site… they will guilt trip you with lines like “Who are you going to trust? A bunch of faceless bloggers, or me your friend?”. Choose how you want to handle this situation yourself… however consider the above information. Good luck to you and let us know how things go….however I think I already know how this story ends.
I have a question for the Poor College Student…did they try to get you to tell them your dreams and goals when they were recruiting you? I know that what my upline did, and later on she kept on bringing up my dreams to keep me “in the business”.
Poor College Student, run away from these guys. Your best bet is to focus on college and do well there. I promise you that is the best path to achieve your dreams in life. Following these guys will sidetrack you from your goals and only help them accomplish theirs.
You will endure more harassment from your family and friends and for that I am sorry. It will be hard to continue to tell them NO but that is what you need to do. Here is how their system works. They know that most people will not fall for this “business” but they are okay with that. They are looking for just a handful of people who are trusting enough to give them a chance or easily misled. Once they have this person indoctrinated the game plan is to use them as the lead domino to knock down everyone else.
You would laugh Orrin out of your college dorm room if he came to show you his “plan.” But you will listen to your mom or dad because you trust them. You will think that you are not sure about this thing called LIFE and it sounds strange but you love your parents and want to support them so you sign up. Now the game starts and the manipulation continues, without knowing it you go from manipulated to manipulator. You want to make your mom and dad or friends happy so you will do what they tell you to do to be successful.
You will not be taught about products, you will be taught how to recruit. Where are the dominoes in your life that you can knock down? They will have you create a contact list and start this same type of pain of manipulation is someone else’s life. When your friends realize this doesn’t work, and they lost money and time in this crazy business they will not be mad at Orrin, they will be upset at you. The biggest thing you will lose is not time and money but all the friendships you introduce to this business. If you keep some of those friendships you will be fortunate but your reputation and respect with them will forever be tarnished. They will have a hard time ever trusting you again.
The people recruiting you will try to tell you the best way or only way to accomplish your dreams is to follow them and partner up with MonaVie or LIFE. Please trust me, stay in school, get your degree, and just work hard and be honest and you will accomplish all your dreams and live a blessed life. The best way to help your family and friends is to kindly talk to them and share your doubts, this site, and show that you are committed to your dreams by staying on the path you have chosen. Sooner or later they will see the truth. When they do they will have respect for you that you had the courage to stand strong on your convictions and did not fall for this scam.
@poor college student – This is excellent advice from @mlmpunisher.
If you want to be a doctor, say so. If you want to work as a computer engineer, say so. You could say something like, “The level of effort required to be a part of TEAM will negatively impact my studies and could put a damper on my plan to ultimately become a doctor, lawyer, engineer, etc.”
EXCELLENT POST PUNISHER! Amthrax that would be a great add on to the post you already have up on MLM Punisher!
Arturo~ Your post, great explantion also!
College Student;
These are great posts by all. If I may piggyback what Webelieved has said. The reason they want to get you on system so quickly is because they know if they get you indoctrinated to listening to cd’s and reading books the more likely you are to stick around. I am sure you heard at the open meeting as much as you could stand about system. There were times I had new people there and all they could remember about their first meeting was system, system, system. I remember when I got started I had trouble keeping people in my business. My upline told me the sooner you get someone listening to cd’s (tapes back then), and reading books (started on system) the better chance you have of them to stick in Team. This business when we were in Quixtar was a build and replace, meaning that you would get those signed up, they may come to a meeting or two and then if they weren’t on system would disappear. So you would start the process all over again with the next new person, and then you would teach them the same thing all the while trying to get them on system. MV and I am sure each and everyone here will agree is a bigger build and replace business than Quixtar, and has become imperative to get on system right away. So you can see to change your critical thinking skills, to Team thinking you must get into the cd’s and books asap. That is how they get you believing the hype, and get you hooked. Besides as Webelieved stated, it is more money in your uplines pocket.
Hello Everyone,
I’m new to this place. I have recently come across information that has brought up a main question that I have always kinda asked since I first got in. WHERE HAVE ALL THE BIG LEADERS GONE?
This first arrived when I was listening to a cd where chris Brady quoted “Matt Zimmerman”. Then there was a cd where Terri Brady was talking bout “Bill and Peggy”. Something about some bellhops weren’t doing their job and Terri was annoyed, but Billy joined the conversation about the football player from Tennessee and then the bellhops willINGLY grabbed some bags without any enticing. Then I got an o
“Old CD by JOHN And Melanie Morgan.
Over the past year or less, I have been curious to know where Pastor Dickie went, as well as Matt Abraham and Don Freeze. I never had any reason to pursue it further because I trust the hearts of those that I am directly involved with.
As of recently, I have comeacross other information that tells me I should look deeper than what I have previously done. I don’t doubt the hearts of those that I am involved with and based on the information I have to this point I have no reason to leave team. (At least not a solid founded reason…) Yet I am having some doubts and consider myself an honest open minded skeptic. I would like to gather as much information as possible from all sides so that I can make as well of an informed decision as possible.
With that all being said, over the past week I have probably spent 10 hours + reading through various posts on this blog. It is very clear that a number of you were very close to the innner circle of TEAM. I would like to take all of your comments as gospel, but unfortunattly since i do not know any of you and we are all staying anonymous (for Good reasons) I must do my own research.
Here is what I have gathered so far:
1.) Orrin and the Policy Council pretty much took away profits and incomes that were promised before thetransfer from Q to MV. Basically they switched the game up right in the middle of everything. Because of this they can’t be trusted.
2.)Orrin They ushered all profit sharers into a room at a Go Diamond Weekend and told them to sign this contract in 10the minutes or leave and don’t get paid. ( I’m also gathering that this may have happened more than once…?
Just to clarify, I am simply looking for answers. I understand and am trying to empathize with those who have been scarred or are even still bleeding. I don’t claim to know more than I do, nor do I claim to know anyones motives (Team and ExTeam alike). I will be continually searching for the right path that God has given me to follow in my life. For some reason I feel he has led me here. Please help me find answers to my questions.
And If there are other factual points that I need to consider (outside of your personal Opinions of another persons character, morals, and values) then please bring them to my attention.
Until that time I will Be,
Enjoying the Journey
@Enjoying the journey:
There is evidence that Orrin was behind (1) the anonymous smear campaigns in 2004-2006 against Amway/Quixtar critics, (2) the 2007-2008 anonymous smear campaign against Amway/Quixtar, and (3) the anonymous blog called Qrush. If this is true, it goes counter to what Orrin has publicly stated for many, many years regarding anonymous blogging.
@amthrax.
Have these all been proven, except the third one?
With regards to the 2007-2008 anonymous blogs against Amway/Quixtar, who else would have been behind it? Nearly all of the blogs were from TEAM members who were leaving Amway/Quixtar at the time. If Orrin wasn’t behind it, he certainly could have put an end to it by telling his TEAM members to take the high road?
Since I have never been a TEAM member, I’ll leave it to the Ex-TEAM members to comment on this. Several of them have put in claims that Orrin was behind the anonymous smear campaigns. Some have evidence to back it up as well.
WeBelieved,
When I first stopped being on system (I quit listening for 2 weeks or so before I quit formally) I began to see what was up. The fog was lifting, and I could not deny the fact that I was broke, either. I remember seeing new prospects at Opens, and my upline telling me to talk to them, because I had credibility. I still feel bad about telling people that Quixtar and Amway were in no way related..right, NOT!
The hardest hurdle to get over when I quit was feeling a sense of loss; loss of what I had done to my REAL small business, loss of the whole thing being so dishonest, loss of the idea of residual income from this mess, loss of respect for my Uplines, and especially my loss of my Church and Pastor at the time.
I remember wondering why, if the “business” was so good, I was being threatened to my face in my own home..I mean, what could I, one person, have said that could possibly have jepordized this Kingpins income stream so very much? I thought about that a lot; maybe the income stream was not so secure after all?
I read a lot of books, searched to and fro on the internet, talked several times with Eric (thank God for him) and finally I decided deep within myself that I wasn’t a failure, they were! I realized a job was a good thing, and being a self employed person was great, if I let it be, for me. I think many of the sites I read really helped me to heal.
Another thing that helped me was I found a new Church, and I love to be a part of it. I realized all I could do is pray for my friends that were still in, because the more I tried to say to help them, the sooner they would cut me completely out of their lives. To this day, I still have some former friends/clients that simply disappeared and have never talked to me again. Sometimes I will run into a former team mate, and I am very careful to be cheerful and upbeat with them, because they may be hurting just as much as I was some time ago. Most of the people I have been able to help came to me, or, I literally ran into them in a public place. I can imagine I looked much the same way they do; generally tentative to say how they are really doing, and blaming themselves for their supposed failure.
The nasty part of getting out is what I call “silent lies that are so loud” meaning in the business you are taught to look successful, fake it till you make it, etc. Well, when you get out, you are facing many things like the collapse of your dream, being ostracized, and then, having no money and deep debt due to believing in the lies. When you meet up with someone you used to be in the business with, the ability to be an insincere person (the system teaches this quite well) can kick right back in..Yep, you are doing wonderful don’t you know, and that’s what you may tell your old downline. To be honest requires courage, for admitting you are broke will also be admitting all the money they thought you were making was not true, just fluff.
I think the biggest wake up that made me move forward was realizing they didn’y give a hoot about me, just who I could sign up, and who I could get on system. There is fresh meat around every corner for them, although, I think the Internet has hurt them somewhat. Actually, a lot.
Just believe in yourself, and know that you got out because you cared about people, and you could no longer lie to them to get them to join. Look in the mirror and like waht you see, because you have courage.
Enjoying the Journey – Yes, Orrin was behind all of these anonymous blogs. I know, because I was one of the authors.
Orrin even lied about this repeatedly under oath during the lawsuits denying any involvement. This is just one example of many of his lies thru the years.
And the hits just keep on coming………..A high ranking round table member and close personal friends of Tim and Amy Marks, in fact the woman was said to be one of Amy’s closest friends. Anyway, they decide to take some time off after a few rounds of tag with Rob Halstrand at the Team office in an effort to find out the pay formula since their checks were never consistent for the numbers they posted. After informing Tim of his planned sabatical he was informed by Tim that he would be receiving his last profit sharing check because the PC vote him out of profit sharing……….Nice guy’s way to treat your friends. If they would do this to close personal friends what would they do to you????
All the things they accused Q of they do 10 times worse because they do it under the guise of friendship………..Their time is coming……And it ain’t gonna be pretty.
I heard from some cross line, I mean former cross line, that Dolores Martin was telling team mates the the voting thing into profit sharing was just a legal formality and that it doesn’t mean anything cuz every one that does the work get’s voted in……………..LIE!!! I know of a few that did not who weren’t shoving their noses up the PC’s back side……………They lie so much they don’t even consider their lies lies anymore……….Wow and they are the couple doing the next seminar……….Pray for their lying selves………….
Finally~
That would be a ** News Flash** to all those liefers who believe they are going to be able to retire, and have freedom from their J.O.B… they better hang on to it!
Just as we have been saying all along, there is NO PROMISED, passive, residual, B-type, willable, ongoing, income, for the rest of YOUR LIFE! That is not to mention you own nothing!
Just another LIE, they just keep compounding…. That must be what they meant by the key to wealth…… the POWER of compounding (lies)?
Well our hearts sincerely, go to the round table, we know EXACTLY how they feel. Sounds very similiar to what they did to us, except we never got a notice, they just stole it and we weren’t under their ‘voting contract’! I am convinced they have no conscience left!
I couldn’t agree with you more, their time is drawing near; they are self-destructing. How many more times do they think they will get away with this theft? They will eventually run out of builders, but then that maybe the plan, then they won’t have anyone left to pay but THEMSELVES. Must be THEIR idea of the Wal-Mart of the Internet, no leaders, just customers, more money for them! Looks like they better reset, that million people goal.
What’s up with Rob, WOW? Has he been sworn to secrecy? I wouldn’t want to be him when the Team books get audited. I wonder who will be throw under the bus and destroyed, then?
What an insignificant legacy and name they are (destroying)/ building for themselves and the whole industry! What a disgrace.
Guru’s? “Who voted for that;…. their mommy?”
BTW~ Who on the freaking planet cannot question, HOW THEY GET PAID? I sure hope the MLM leaders no longer wonder why it has a bad name!
OK! after reading Hours of comments and opinions and being a former sap to the Team, How do we put an END to this, I hear you all voice your opinion but how can we stop this from destroying another American family, what do we have to do to stop this “Business” from taking the money and time out of one more persons life??????
Let’s summarize a few things that we are reading on this post:
1.Orrin is in fact Qrush who just a few years ago wrote some of the most disgusting homophobic hate speech and other vulgar stuff. (Not when he was young and innocent, but just a few years ago when he was an adult and supposedly a practicing Christian)
2. Orrin’s apology was less than truthful (are we surprised by that?).
3. People can have their teams and or income taken from them by a vote.
4. Close friendships mean very little unless you are 100% devoted to the cause.Don’t dare to have any moments of doubt or you can be turned on quickly.
5. Their is no real passive, residual income in Team business.
6. Orrin was behind the annonymous blogs that smeared Amway and denied it under oath.
7. Many former leaders and Team office personal left suddenly or without little explanation.(Something is smelling pretty fishy if you ask me!)
8. College kids are recruited to pay enormous amounts of money to do the Team business and are told that staying in college is a waste of time. (Bad, bad, advice!!)
9. Churches are hurt and Christian friendships are ruined.
10. Top Team leaders are not really hostage, they are guilty of being collaborators with Orrin Woodward. These leaders know exactly what they are all doing.
Does it really surprise anyone why so many people on this blog have total disgust for Team and for It’s leadership? This is a corrupt and deceptive cult.
Great recap, John, sums up quite a bit! 🙂
Families are also divided. One only needs to read Tyson from the Midwest post added with his sister. I personally know this is not an isolated (only 1 case, NO, several) it has and will continue to divided siblings, parents, and relatives, until it is stopped! How sad!
Editor’s note: removed Tyson’s full name at his request
@Orderbook – first of all, how did you get out of TEAM?
Secondly, there’s no real way to put an end to this insanity until someone from the FTC shuts them down, or Woodward and Co gets jailed for fraud or something like that. I know I sound pretty pessimistic but some things just tend to run its course then collapse. And unfortunately TEAM is still running its course. However, there is one thing that I’ve done when I left the business – I called up all of my contacts that I called, and apologised for trying to get them into a scam. I then told them my story. Some people even thanked me for coming forward and telling them the truth.
Luckily I had no downline that could turn against me. But I still have an upline that Hubby knew for 20 years from church and a soup kitchen ministry that’s still in it, sadly she won’t leave until she’s bitten. All I can do is pray for her. 😦
I’m glad you got out, Orderbook, use your experience to help guide your future. At least you know now how cunning these scams are.
@The Truth Hurts. Thank you for your comments above. I have had a lot of the same feelings that you described and it’s good to know I am not alone. I have been reading for DAYS on here and it does help to deal with so many emotions that I have been thru. I like what velizabethwhite did too…by calling all of the people she contacted about the business and apologizing to all of them. I guess that is what I need to do. I work with people I showed the plan to and we just never talk about it, but it’s something that bothers me, like a bad case of hemorrhoids.
I want to thank all of you for finally speaking the truth about the team. It’s hard to believe that one man can be so evil. What’s even harder to swallow is that I believed in him the way I did. I feel like such a fool, but it’s time to heal.
I am grateful for the opportunity to share some of the truths I know. It is shameful and they are going down. I have spoken with a of the “burned” and there is talk going on about exactly what to do. Their numbers are going backwards so I do believe they will eventually collapse, but…………until then………I suggest we all talk and share our stories. I heard something interesting about their accounting practices. I do have friends and they have friends who have friends, as we all do 🙂 I am seeking to find a connection in the IRS, I do have personal one and that will be contacted as well. If Orrin is such a “guru” and straight forward business man his office will not sweat a little scrutiny by the IRS………..If he isn’t, hehehehehe and we all the know the answer, he will, as Ricky use to say on I love Lucy ” Lucy you got some splainin to do”
All the leaders are all over each others jocks, they back each other on stage and pour on the tears, no is better than Dolores Martin on that, did you ever go to one of their seminars……….GEEZ, any way they have burned too many and done so much that is in exact contradiction to what they preach that people do not care anymore. Can you just see it, remember Orrin’s teaching, you have to Dream!!!!!! The day when the walls come crumbling down and their millions they have bilked are needed to defend them right up until the time they are broke and heading to jail…………
Enron, tyco, Bernie Madar, Fannie Mae, and all the rest and at the top of the list T E A M!!
I guess Terri and Amy and Lauri may have to find jobs cleaning houses or something. Maybe some of their ex team will hire them…………that would be some irony eh……….
[Editor’s Note: comment removed at the request of original poster]
Luke,
All I can say is L.I.F.E (Living intentinally for excellence) is coming 11-1-11! Orin Woodward has finnally put a date on a million people. With in 5 years!!! So if this really doesnt work, why would he put a date on this? Cause if we get to 5 years and there isnt a million won’t everyone quit? Why would he take the risk is saying this unless he knew this would happen? Something new is coming that many of you who quit are not aware of, that is all I can say.
Well, Luke, I guess we’ll all wait and see what transpires, eh? Are you going to quit as well if there isn’t a million TEAM members by the date? 😉
If we get to 800k it would still be kinda like amazing.. Though We shall see what happens in five years and what is really gonna happen on Nov 1st.
Luke;
He has been saying he is going to a million people since I got started in 2003. He put a time line on it then, and told everyone that their would be a Team of Destiny island. All of this by 2006. He told everyone that when we left Quixtar we were going to be the Wal-Mart of the internet. Told everyone (the business you are currently in) that it was a passive residual income, willable to two generations, that if you make 2 to 3 thousand dollars a month and you want to stop that your money will keep on coming month after month after month. As a matter of fact it will continue to grow because other leaders below you will want to get to that level of 2 to 3 thousand dollars a month. All lies, it never happened, and it never will. We all have heard it before.
Luke~
Orrin Woodward has been saying he is going to a ‘million people’ for so long now, I can’t even remember the year it began. You ask some really silly questions that show your blindly following and very naive.
Just because Orrin ‘SAYS’ it doesn’t mean it is going to happen
f you would read the rest of this blog you might find out that Orrin’s word doesn’t mean much if anything. This may come as a suprise to you and I think I can safely say there wouldn’t be a person on this blog (excluding the liefers) that believe A WORD orrin says.
Just because Orrin ‘SAYS’ it doesn’t mean it is going to happen. LHOL
Let me explain.
He is COUNTING on naive people like YOU and Tens of Thousands of Others to deceive and stick long ENOUGH to bring others in, BELIEVE it and Go Do The Work to make this Happen; so HE can say see….. I DID IT!
You state: “Cause if we get to 5 years and there isnt a million won’t everyone quit? Why would he take the risk is saying this unless he knew this would happen?”
He has no choice and is toooooo prideful to admit it isn’t going to happen. He would look like a fool if he doesn’t say after YEARS of repeating, HOPING someone ‘buys it’ and goes out and put thousands into their businesses so he can claim the glory!! Do You really Believe Orrin is going to Do this all by his self?
LHOL~ You Luke are very niave. They got you, hook, line, and sinker, buddy.
Read your buddy, Lyk’s comments….He doesn’t even believe it! He’s already sold out to it isn’t going to happen and neither does Orrin, He is just trying to convince SOMEONE.
There is no ‘tryin’! LHOL 🙂
Should say: There is no ‘tryin’… only DO and unless orrin has found a way to ‘solicite’ (like he did all the cross-line groups out of Amway and into the Team or has another unorganic way to entice people. I don’t care what ‘products’ he has found.
Just finished reading all of the posts re: the “Team”. Glad I did, it has certainly been an eye-opener. My gut was saying somethings just not right and the “talks” were just a little too slick. Definately uninformative. When I first looked into this I didn’t find much, but when I changed my search criteria I came up with this site tonight and lots more. That being said, I just finished meeting with a friend and their mentor and I’m supposed to go to the meeting in Battle Creek this Sat. (1oth). I gave them the money for this, because I didn’t want to be obligated for someone paying for my ticket if I didn’t continue on with the program. And Yes, they do use relationships to try and pull you in.
Seems as if I need to not go and just “put down the opportunity and step away”.
Thanks to everyone who has taken the time to share your thoughts and experiences.
Okay Luke, maybe we are naive ……….so please inform us of what is coming?? Do you know? or are you taking it on faith? The Teams numbers have spiraled downward since 07, that is fact, Orrin can’t put a date on a million people because he can not control the future, he can set the goal, as he has done in the past, but he can not control the out come. Of All the speakers you see on stage, none of them are qualified at the MV rank they claim, they mat have hit it a couple of times but they are no longer qualified. They lie to keep you in so you can find some of your people to buy into the lie. Ask your up line to show you proof of income. Then come back and prove us all liars. At the Battle Creek seminar ask the speakers to prove their income, they won’t, ask them to produce a Team IDS, they won’t and can’t…it doesn’t exist. The best part is the reasons you will hear for them not proving their claims………One more thing, like politicians, Orrin tells and makes claims so large that you and other naive peeps will buy into it because you can’t believe he would say something like that………don’t sweat it though, a lot of us were there too….
Jaia~
Thanks for the sharing! 🙂 You can get your money back, and I would if that is what you decide. Just curious, from your perpective what did you see when you read all the posts? What stood out for you?
Very wise Jaia and you can get your money back and there should be no hesitation on your part if it doesn’t feel right to you.
Finally~
Great points. You are right he has no control of the outcome, he can only continuously repeat the same rhetoric a million times and HOPE someone will bring enough in. I shutter to think of those who continue to join.
On a very serious note; NO ONE knows how much time they have on this planet. I would not want to be there deceiving others all the way to the end and all the damage, destruction, and destitution they have caused, that they want to believe it is done and over with; in the past; without any consequences. I have seen some liefers say they have changed, it doesn’t matter, doesn’t absolve what they have done to ten’s of thousands.
Where is there fear of the Lord?
Proverbs 8:13, 9:10, 10:27, 14:2, 15:16
Psalms
52:5-7 Surely God will bring you down to everlasting ruin: He will snatch you up and tear you from your tent; he will uproot you from the land of the living. The righteous will see and fear; they will laugh at him, saying, “Here now is the man who did not make God his stronghold but trusted in his great wealth and grew strong by destroying others!”
We believed, I know for fact he did it…cuz the person he did it to told me. He was hiding money and that will come out one day I am sure. He knows no boundaries, putting people in danger for financial gain………All the stuff he say’s on stage you can disregard, we know one lie is as good as a hundred and he has told the same lies thousands of time. The funny thing is how he plays the victim. Always saying the when you become a leader you are gonna take shots. I think he actually believes his lies. The sad part is that one day when it all come crumbling down on him he will have to answer his kids…….you know the ones he said he would never do anything illegal that would jeopardize his business because he would not want to look into his kids eyes………….He has no conscience………..I do believe it will make headlines when they collapse.
That is always the case, as one fraud expert says; follow the money trail………..
You will find it. 🙂
I don’t get it. does shopping at any store get you paid for bringing in new business? Does building someone elses business a j.o.b. get you financial security or freedom? does improving ones self with books, cd’s, and association hurt? No to all questions. What hurts here people, is spending time bashing one thing over your personnel failures in order to feel some sick twisted feeling of redemption or satisfaction. I would gladly spend the time money and effort and fail, than not to have tried at all. The truth is these people here bashing, never read the books, never built a worthwhile relationship or business that’s why they are here bashing Orrin and Team, or any MLM. Truth hurts more than these folks can bare and that’s why thy’re here wasting time living in the past in a sea drowning from a utter loss of character. Go ahead a spend the rest of your life spending your money supporting everything and everyone except your self, and die with nothing to show for your existence except what could have been. I find if team isn’t for you, you could talk to your leadership and discuss it in a respectful and rational manner, because the truth is its been said time and time again by some who dare to stand and say they’ll give you back you money. And money speaks louder than all of these hate filled bashing words can ever hope to. You see Orrin and those at a notable level of promotion are in fact making money without a real job, my upline makes 6,7 figure income, so whos the fake and fraud here people? its the ones with something to say and nothing to show. Who want something for nothing. They are all left thinking people. I know from experience.
Altops
Obviously you are still deeply emeshed in the team. How do you know your upline makes that much? Have you seen actual tax returns? I think not. If I were you, I would ask myself how my Upline makes that much money, because simple mathematics will tell you it cannot just be from juice. Are you paid for bringing in new business…hmmm. lets add up the costs, seminars, opens, leadership, juice, books, cds, in the long run I would imagine you are bleeding financially at this point.
As for people being failures on this website blog, I think not. What people come here to do is heal from all the lies they have been told, as it is very hurtful when you realize you have been nothing to these people unless you continue to produce fresh meat for them..I know, first hand. How long do you think they will be buddy buddy with you if you drop out, or cease to follow the leader, hook, line and sinker? From personal experience, you may well end up with one of the top people on your doorstep, then in your home, telling you how much they love you on the first visit (mind you, this was after not talking to me for over a year) and you listen to them tell you how so many people have made money in the business. When I questioned that, and said I was fully aware of the pain that had been caused in countless peoples lives, the visit suddenly ended. My second visitation was much more blunt; this man whom I had baked birthday cakes for, watched his children, been a true friend to him, threatened me in no uncertain terms. When I asked if I was indeed being threatened, I was told they would ruin me if I didn’t basically shut up.
You accuse people here of being failures, shame on you for that nasty comment. I certainly am not a failure, and I have moved on, thank you very much.
I understand that the only thing I will take out of this world is my integrity; in the end, this is all a person has to truly count as his own. I knew I needed to come here and try to help others, because my integrity demands that I do so.
Atops, when you are dumped, and are hurting, I will even try to help you, too. In fact, all of us on this Blog will be here for you, you betcha!
altops~
Shame on you is right…”What hurts people”..is the deliberate corruption, deception, lies, theft, betrayal of the con’s you happen to be defending. It is NOT as you say someone’s personal failures. We were NOT a failure by any standards, not even by the Team ‘standards’ and if you would pull your head out of your….the cult, indoctrinated, thought reform…and at least read the post above your’s, instead of jumping in here trying to claim some moral high ground.
altops says; “THE TRUTH (my emphasis) is these people here bashing, never read the books, never built a worthwhile relationship or business that’s why they are here bashing Orrin and Team, or any MLM. ”
‘THE TRUTH?.. about these people’, that proves you are a blantant liar; YOU know NOTHING about how many books ‘these people’ have read’, ‘how many THOUNSANDS of relationships ‘these people’ built, and put into the buisness.
Don’t call your lies and judgement the truth!
You also say: “I would gladly spend the time money and effort and fail, than not to have tried at all.”
You better mean what you say because that is exactly what you will get…. the business is designed for YOU (the 99%) to fail. And from the example of your post, that is a certainty. Although it does take for you to lie to people to build the buisness, and you are off to a good start.
Loss of character? Better check the mirror….You need to read the rest of the site, before you go make any more foolish statements.
You say; “Go ahead a spend the rest of your life spending your money supporting everything and everyone except your self, and die with nothing to show for your existence except what could have been.”
Excuse me?…… Who died and left you in charge of the ‘rest of our lives’ to die with nothing? You really are NOT trying to play; God are you? Where did you pull that pile of BS from, your cyrstal ball? You need some serious deprogramming.
You say; “I find if team isn’t for you, you could talk to your leadership and discuss it in a respectful and rational manner, because the truth is its been said time and time again by some who dare to stand and say they’ll give you back you money.”
You are a downright fool and clearly haven’t read a single post on this site. There you go again calling what we know is downright lies the truth… you seriously need some help.
YOU say; “And money speaks louder than all of these hate filled bashing words can ever hope to. You see Orrin and those at a notable level of promotion are in fact making money without a real job, my upline makes 6,7 figure income, so whos the fake and fraud here people? its the ones with something to say and nothing to show.”
MONEY SPEAKS LOUDER, that is exactly why you state ‘Orrin is in fact making money without a real job’ but there is one very important thing you left out. Orrin STOLE our profit-sharing and teams, and has raked in millions off of people just like you for almost 2 decades and that is WHY he doesn’t have a job and makes the money you apparently think he got in some noble way. Orrin has done many illegal, immoral, and unethical things, that does make who the fake and fraud?…..get a clue.
You say; “Who want something for nothing. They are all left thinking people. I know from experience.”
What? More of your BS…..that you don’t know squat about ….
Read the post above yours and the rest of the site, then comment on that…. since you think you KNOW the TRUTH.
“Atops, when you are dumped, and are hurting, I will even try to help you, too. In fact, all of us on this Blog will be here for you, you betcha!”
Altops~ I agree with The Truth Hurts & Webelieved….but that’s after you have faced the truth, and snapped out of it. Until then you need to do your research…. which will lead to that point, and then we can be of help when you hit ‘rock bottom’ so to speak.
Speak Your Truth and webelieved
After reading Altops post once again, I am seriously thinking this could be a put up job by members of a certain business we all know and definetly don’t love.
Altops rambles somewhat, and I find some of the ideas being thrown out almost like baiting the people who post on this site. Hmmm. I know they do send people to sites to get reactions from people that post against them, because they asked me to do this for them at one time too. Well, my former “business” associates, if you have sunk low enough to have to come on this site and put people up to writing trash to us (collectively) then your business must not be growing by leaps and bounds..maybe its not “exploding” any more? Or, come to think of it, maybe indeed it is getting ready to “implode”.
I think the saddest thing I have ever heard concerning this “business” is the comment often made from stage “a person of integrity expects to be believed, and if he isn’t he will let time prove him right”. That was used in conjunction with not showing any newbies your tax returns, because you expected to be believed…By the way, I think time has proved it all right, as in proved some people are shameless charlatans.
The Truth Hurts~
There is one thing that I find to be absolutely heartless, intollerable, and downright hateful; and that is ‘playing games’ with other people’s lives. It is obvious to me that is what Altops is trying to do. Shameful, talk about sick and twisted for their own satisfaction.
It isn’t rocket science that the only thing that matters to them cover up any truth, so they will try and create diviersions to protect their lies and the MONEY. They seem to forget; the law of you reap what you sow.
Why and what would they ask you to do to get a ‘reaction’ from those on the sites? What’s the point, it proves the brainwashing, that they are in complete denial and shows they aren’t the Christians they claim to be. Did they really think this helpes their cause?
The games they play….only reveals what we already know about their character and it is evident, what a cult they are.
Wow, this is a new low for me to witness…dishonest posting. What ever happened to ***avoid every negative non-team-related stuff***, ehÉ
*sigh*
Somehow I ain`t surprised.
Altops said,
This is so very depressing because I think Altops really believes this. How many of us tried to have a respectful discussion with Team leaders only to find we were lied to, belittled, threathened, bashed behind our backs and eventually shoved out the door. Yes, it is true Orrin is making money without a real job. But he and those at the top get paid on the sorrows of all the thousands who are being fleeced at the bottom. Altops, do you know the turn over rate in this business? Do you know how many people go through the grind of this corrupt and deceptive business? Do you know how many leaders lie with regularity in this business? This has to be the most corrupt and destructive businesses I have ever witnessed. I would doubt all of the testilmonies on here if I had not witnessed all of this myself and had my business taken from me and saw the lies, the phoniness, the propaganda, the hate and animosity that is aimed at anyone who dares cross the Pharaoh’s at the top of this pyramid. I almost weep when I think of all the people who have been hurt by these guys. I have no sympathy for any of them. They all know what they are doing. LIFE is the next attempt to keep people in for a few more years until they cook up another scheme to fleece more people. Mean while, the few at the top continue to get rich and the masses at the bottom continue to get fleeced. Sun rise sun set…somethings never change. But people like poor Altops will give their money, support, and time to these guys and to their despicable broken business.
[Editor’s note: added blockquote for better readability]
I would like to see the proof of the 6 or 7 figure income………….That way you could prove to us that they make money off the backs of the negative income teammate’s which by the way make up 99 per cent of team life. The sad fact is the pc knows this and their whole function is to find ways to keep the 99 per cent from understanding that this will never work for them. That is why they hate this board so much. They know, although they would never admit that the folks on here are right. They sold their souls for money……………whats worse is they often do it in the name of God………….
Altops –
Just remember this sight when things go south. Regardless of the venom, this group is pretty welcoming of those that are hurt by the business. When you need the group, they will be here. Until then, good luck.
It’s funny that Altops isn’t responding to our posts. He just did a hit-and-run. Typical of TEAM members.
Agree, just another drive by, guess we all belived that crap until it was proven wrong by experence and logic. Wish I found a site like this BEFORE I was duped by R3G, that was way before this TEAM late arrival got into the act on the MV dog and pony show.
I agree~
I believe this site has helped more than we know…but altops should come here with the verification of the 6 to 7 figure (1099) income because I am sure the FTC requires it…it is just a matter of time…..you play with fire…you get burnt.
John~
Thanks for display of compassion. Sometimes I forget to show it, when these poor brainwashed souls show up. Unless it would be a PC..then I do have compassion for those being taken into the biggest illusion of their lives. But funny the PC never show up with their real names..not saying Altops is a PC, but there have been a few that have came on here who I believe were by their writting and speaking style…but they came Anonymously…go figure.
FAILURE IS ONLY AN EVENT
I remember listening to a CD with one of the top leaders disccusing failure; the point was made that you should keep on going, build your team regardless of how many no responses you received.
Lets talk about FAILURE. Altops plainly calls us all FAILURES. Hmm. Think about the hardworking Guy that goes to work every day to bring home a paycheck to support his Family; somehow the people in this “business” we all know and don’t love have turned this honorable practice of working for a living into a bad thing..why? Money is not the end all in life; being able to give your Family love and attention, and put food in their mouths is an HONORABLE thing to do.
I know plenty of Parents who are not failures, they are hard working couples who love their children and Family very much. How did this “business” decide that these hard working people, who work for their money (honest work, no smoke and mirrors) should be so denigrated by these leaders? What’s wrong with the 45 year plan, if you comport yourself with honor, love your Family, and raise children with the important things in life that money certainly can NEVER buy?
How terrible to act like you are disgusted with real honest to goodness hard working Moms and Dads, who are the back bone and majority of this Country.
Shame on them for warping what is good and honest and denigrating decent folk to this degree!
The Truth Hurts~ Great comments and here is some more that validates no one is a Failure, no matter what your proffession.
Decieving, lying, cheating, and stealing, from people for your own financial gain… would not be considered Honorable work or a proffession to do.. in anyone’s eyes…. I would rather clean toilets or anything else… than con people for a living.
Genesis 2:15:
“The Lord God took the man and put him in the garden of Eden to work it and keep it”
Paul writes in Thessalonians 3:10-12:
“If anyone is not willing to work, let him not eat. For we hear that some among you walk in idleness, not busy at work but busybodies. Now such persons we command and encourage in the Lord Jesus Christ to do their own work quietly and to earn their own living.”
So if you are heading for the heights of the Royal College of Surgeons don’t allow others to put you on a pedestal or even be tempted to climb up yourself – and if you are struggling with unemployment or a boring dead end job and feel that because of that you are worth nothing – think again – you are worth no less in God’s eyes than anyone else.
Remember: We are NOT what we DO.
(verses and some content copied from a church blog)
Great post syt….speaking of failure’s do they talk about the Huber’s filing for bankruptcy as a failure???? I mean he did sponsor Bill Lewis [comment deleted]
Do they talk about the bankruptcy of the Cullen’s as failure???? I seem to recall my up line ripping on the “people’ who file for bankruptcy as losers, which by the way I know is total crap but he is one of the cronies that decided not to allow himself to think for himself and only thought what was told to him by his up line. At least that is how it appeared to me. All of the Team ‘leaders” are struggling, they get on stage and tell you you can do it, but not even they are “doing it’. I am shocked at the level they have sunk to……
[Editor’s note: It was decided months ago not to discuss the topic of a certain TEAM leader and possible abuse. Backruptcy is fine to discuss, but let’s leave the other topic off the table for now.]
Comment removed.
[Editor’s note: It was decided months ago not to discuss the topic of a certain TEAM leader and possible abuse. Backruptcy is fine to discuss, but let’s leave the other topic off the table for now.]
Comment removed.
[Editor’s note: It was decided months ago not to discuss the topic of a certain TEAM leader and possible abuse. Backruptcy is fine to discuss, but let’s leave the other topic off the table for now.]
Jobs, yeah……….they do make fun of them…….the sad fact is many of the very leaders that at one time had their income soley from team are now looking for those jobs they made fun of other people for having……….It is honorable to work and do your best to support yourself and your family. I have heard the comments they have made from cd and stage about working to make someone else rich…………are you friggin kidding me????? That is exactly what they hold seminars for, the majority can get emotional and run out and bring in more peeps that will get on system, get addicted to the atmosphere, dump 3-5 hundred bucks a month into their pockets all without having a real shot at making it. I know Orrin and Tim have said how unlikely it was that guys like them would make it. Tim hit an internet wave in the e commerce industry. It will never be like that again. He had 2 years of zig ziglar under his belt and he came in and sold an idea faster than anyone else. That is not the economical environment of today. People are going broke on the stories of yester year thinking that thy can do it to. We do not know the whole truth about any of them. I ran into a guy that sold his platinum ship to Tim Marks back in Q. Now was this one of his 6 legs for Diamond??? It was confirmed to me, so now would that whole truth change the way people look and believe inTim??? Larry Van Buskirk went diamond in q and was PC for a while……..how did he lose it? Remember during the break from Q all the PC guys……that was all manipulated so people would not stop believing they could win too. None of those guys that hit pc are then, are even close to it now………….I guess that ring doesn’t have as much value as they claim……they whored it out…..
Great post Finally!
Back to the jobs comment, it looks like after filing for bankruptcy, Joe is now trying to get paid for third party / corporate speaking engagements: http://www.athletepromotions.com/celebrity/Joe-Darkangelo-appearance-booking-agent.php
I pulled up the Huber’s bankruptcy filing and it looks like they also had a regular job in 2008.
Nothing wrong with having a “real” job of course, but it’s another thing when jobs are bashed on stage (unless of course you’re a brain surgeon) and everyone is led to believe that these guys make ALL of their money through TEAM…doesn’t it mean something that even some of the biggest leaders on the TEAM can’t support themselves financially through “their” business???
The Truth Hurts says~
“Money is not the end all in life; being able to give your Family love and attention, and put food in their mouths is an HONORABLE thing to do.”
X2!
Couldn’t have said it better, myself.
WOW, We believed…………that is just to much like what we went through.
I am convinced of all the deceit, I am also convinced that they will soon fall. It used to be just Scott Larsen out there talking about all the bad in Team/Q. Now we have the former inner circle/RT/ Triple 100’s telling the real story. What will the end game look like? Not sure but I do not Team will NEVER and I mean Never have 1,000,000 people at a seminar………if fact the only Million in their future is the number of people they hurt.
I know too much and am learning more……..they all lie, mislead and if you come out against them they attack. Sounds just like what the Dems did to Sarah Palin………..They talk about America and the way the average person lives and condemn them, then they recruit that very person and tell them what a winner they are. They want them to like them enough to continue lining their pockets………..and that is sick. I know for a fact certain RT members do not believe african americans can do this business………..I have heard it from their mouths……and then I have heard them tell African Americans that they can do it………Why Lie??? I will tell you ………….because they have to.
We Believed………..please do not be so hard on yourself……One thing we know for sure is for what ever reason we had our season with those mutt’s and it was all God’s plan….Knowing that takes a lot of pressure and pain from me. I have faith I was there for a reason just as I have faith we are all here for a reason.
From what I am hearing the trouble for them is just beginning. They mislead a bunch of us financially and used the mentor mentee relationship to manipulate. They most likely broke laws in giving financial advice………..Think of the ramifications of that!!! They thought Q was hard on them………………………………:) Not to mention the bum marital advice and family advice……..it will bite them HARD!!! And when the general team finds out how many former RT members have files bankruptcy…………..HA so much for passive income. Sorry to be so happy but they have it coming.
Finally~
Agreed and ditto to webelieved….Orrin has been ‘self-promoting’ his ‘new book’ coming out; Surprise!….Gotta give it to the guy he never tires of his self-promotions. I find it revolting….you may have seen this but it is about ……wait……Conflict Resolution…..yep……and…..How ‘loyal’ friendships should..work…yep….unbelievable.
What a disgrace and now he is going to ‘force’ it down on BOM so he can pad his pockets; from something he doesn’t even apply himself. He is an ‘expert’ on these topics??…far from it…
.Maybe it will have the ‘golden rule’ in it…or maybe when he is reading the blog he will figure out that he had nothing but phony and ruins friendships and turned on the so called friends, when the sheet hit the fan, and the decisions (with the PC) choices were to made between money or friends.. because they wouldn’t follow their corrupted, destruction of people’s friendships, and businesss…and those he trashed in the process of trying to chase and keep the worthless piece of silver, that became very obvious was way more important to him and the other PC.
Seriously, how does the guy sleep.. Orrin should be the last person on the planet writing a book about ‘conflict resolution’…and from personal experience he is a disgrace to anything remotely close to a ‘true’ friendship. With friends like him no one would need enemies.
Webelieved~
Oh geez you too…we paid ALL of our credit card debt off and the same thing happened because we cancelled the cards after they were paid…. Big Mistake. You would think if you are a upstanding citizen and actually pay for your bills..take responsiblity…… rather …..than ‘default’…then you would have improved it, nope.
How arse backwards, is that?
It’s not well known that canceling your credit cards after paying them off can hurt your credit.
It would have been better to have paid them off and just kept the cards. Or, paid them off and use them (but pay the full balance at the end of every month).
Amthrax..that wasn’t true for us, when we spoke to a bank that is exactly what they told us.
lesson learned..:)
We believed- you are so right about how great it’s been to know others are going through the same things…………We all have similar stories yet none of us has conspired to come on here, or compared notes before we post. Ex team form all over experienced and is experiencing the same types of things, Lie’s, half truths (lie’s) and they are being used under the guise of “relationship” to perpetuate the top guy’s incomes. I once heard them say if you took all their money away they would be the same person………….Well that almost happened to them and we saw what kind of men they actually are.
From what I hear the list of guy’s that followed bankruptcy is bigger than we know yet they continually lie about how great it is going…………I do not believe any of them have any relationships out side of their business………………….I know it has been said bfore but it is worth repeating……….
Just thinking out loud. All of you who were in Team, I am sure remember the reason why we weren’t launching the Wal-Mart of the internet at that time, and why we were going with MV. If I remember correctly and correct me if I am wrong, wasn’t it because the lawyers had advised the PC that if we went to the Wal-Mart of the internet, it would prove to Quixtar that Team had been working on another MLM, and that would violate the 6 month non-compete? So MV was the safe way to go. Now here it is three and a half years later, and still no Wal-Mart of the internet. What are they waiting for now? It was all lies then, and is even worse today. Anyone remember this?
well u have another now ex-team member on here. i have had a bad feeling about things the past couple months since this whole LIFE thing started getting brought up. and i think what made me look around was i saw on my buddy’s facebook page, crossline friend none the less lol. saying something about QRUSH being orrin. i was like wow that makes sense to me i remember reading that stuff years ago. did a search on it and came here. back to my friend hes chasing his dream at the moment which isn’t the TEAM or LIFE or whatever. so none of his upline are talking to him anymore because of that. isn’t that what we heard on CD’s or tapes about supporting people if their calling is something else?
but the reason i have left TEAM was things haven’t been adding up lately. the whole LIFE thing is totally just a name change from TEAM. cause obviously team of destiny came up as bad, team monavie bad. so LIFE would never come up as a bad google search. so about 3 weeks ago my sponsor called me and told me there was a new sign up. im like ok cool what is it, he’s like for under $120 people can get in. im like what all does that include. $60 for the EBC, $25 for the LIFE book and a seminar ticket for $30. im like what if they want to make money? oh they can sign up for monavie but we want them in life. i seriously asked him all this does is hold their spot? well when life comes it will be $40 to sign up. im like they would seriously be giving me $120 for nothing basically. hes like no that would be holding their spot for LIFE. well they still would be giving money for nothing till then. and then what are they gonna be a LIFE coach? i’ll teach u how to be better in the 8 F’s. monavie won’t be brought up till someone asks about the fitness part. im sorry but that doesn’t make sense. the best part about it all is i have called all my PET’s in monavie about it and they all agree with me. its like aren’t we in the monavie business? or are we trying to sell cd’s. i don’t think MLM’s are a bad thing. my sister does the whole tastefully simple partys, marykays, candle light and all that stuff. i think when a business like an MLM is built on that other than tools it can be a great way to make some extra income. the tool business is THE reason MLM’s fail. im not at all trying to say that monavie is the greatest business but they do offer great stuff. what if the TEAM were to go to tastefully simple of something along those lines, then people would bash it as well. my sister and her husband were like lets do a tasting party and my sponsor met with them and was like we don’t built it that way. whats wrong with selling product we are in the product moving business.
Hell power player what a joke. if we build the same as monavie focusing on breaking stars, u would break a star 1000, two star 500’s and 4 star’s. if they were on 200pv to start with that would be over $1000 between 14 people. when u build power player its one person MAYBE would be a star 500, and the other 12 people would make 10$ each if monavie was promoted. maybe $200 for the group. shit u can get all the tools u ever needed from monavie for under $100. or u could change all ur tools in the team every 3-6 months for a lot more. monavie has a flip chart for $12 and the team had one for $36 wtf. GREED is it. all the team is. y would i want to bring my group into something like that? id rather treat like the mlm it is with no tools. Lance Smith and Randy Haugen left the team for a reason. i learned more off their site for free about building the business then i have in team. i personally dont think being apart of a system is going to teach me to be a business owner when all it is to invest money into it and not get anything out. i know i have more to vent but it will come later. i guess what im trying to say is if ur gonna do an MLM do it as far as moving product not moving tools.
Steve (Peachy)~
Yes, I believe you are right at least they couldn’t finish with their competing business.There was someone who posted on that and stated the ‘name’ of the company Orrin & Co. came up with and was in progress when the lawsuits hit.. (the competing MLM that they didn’t want Quixtar/Amway to know about) I forgot who that was though and maybe they will answer.
On the ‘Wal-Mart of the Internet’….”you just wait”…..til 11/1/11…. they are going to revolutionize the Networking Industry…hahaha. I don’t doubt the shysters have something up their sleve launching in a couple of weeks but then when don’t they. They Always have the “just you wait” (which has never turned out to be any big deal, lol) right around the corner at the ‘next best ever’.. seminar, major, open, meeting….
lt will be forgotten as quick as it came; just like the last ‘best thing’ from the previous hyped up seminar. They are notorious for gaming the system, trying to skirt and stay1 step ahead of the law; from catching up with them.
If All this hype is building around a product,….then they really don’t believe their own ‘teaching’……it has NEVER been about the ‘products’ at least from the other companies Quixtar/Amway, Monavie…it is about Selling Themselves as some self-proclaimed guru’s and More of the same ole repeated, reguritated, worn out information, that they steal from.. real leaders.
Orrin claims; They are building LIEf with ‘world class reputations’..Really?..hahahaha…how they plan on tricking people with that one?
The ‘hype’ will phase out…and it will just be another day in the LIEf/Team of the illusions & deception of the build and replace business it has always been.
Their ‘world class reputation and world class, dynamic, cutting edge,with proven results for countless numbers,.. Team’s training system.’ Has got to be the most ridiculous and totally bogus bunch of hype. I can’t believe they get away even making such claims.
@littledufflebagboy, hate to tell you this but the maximum success ratio in Monavie is 1 in 31, and the maximum ratio in Life is 1 in 11. They both suck. You actually have a better shot at throwing your $140 dollars a month down on a single color on a roulette table. To gain further knowledge about the reality of the mv compensation plan read this analysis done by @Michael Collins, and taken from the mv income disclosure statement. Then come back on here and tell us how you are going to break star 500s, star 1000s etc. etc. Take your autoship money, go buy a lawnmower and mow lawns, guarantee you will make more money.
oh and when i went off system i got a call less than two hours later asking if everythings alright? im like damn if that didn’t give it away that it is all about system and tools. but u gotta go to the major. ticket airfare hotel i’ll be a life coach in no time lol. what a joke
Right on SYT. Although I do not know the name of the competing business they were working on when the Q law suit was going on, I can find out. I do know if fact they they had one and lied on the stand in a legal cour proceeding about it numerous times. Some of the round table and others were invited to a tasting of the products. This is fact, not fiction like their new “life” launch. All that is is hype of what they have done for years, sell themselves. It really is nothing more than that. Look at their history, like SYT said they are always hyping the next big thing and the next big thing is actually hype about a re packaging what they have always done. They are shameless and self diluted. Ask any of them if they lost the law suit, they never say they lost they just say it’s over……………..they got slapped with 25 MILLION dollars worth of loss………….by the way, another group sued Q over the contracts we all signed. They were focused on the contracts and won 25 MILLION………….Orrin’s and Chris’s and Tim’s ego cost them……………and we have proof.
Finally~
LIED under Oath numerous times!….I thought they were God fearing Christians…the proof is in their actions. Their examples and ‘world class reputations’ are bankrupt and are slap in the face to Christianity. This is exactly why people have ‘questioned’ their own beliefs in God when they leave the cult.
All those that have fallen hard; due to the extreme ‘edification’, from Every Single person on a constant and continual basis; has made these criminals out to be spotless in their character with bombarding messages. It then Causes people to shut down and deny any and all truth to be seen…even if they witness it with their own senses…they themselves are denying they are deceiving people. They begin to believe they are so perfect and spotless they would NEVER Lie ‘under oath’ or do any of the illegal, immoral, or unethical things that are plastered all over this website.
When the truth is spoken they twist it with more bogus lies..like how come they are the top 7 & 12 leadership guru’s then…or you don’t have ‘all’ the facts, if they are doing things ‘illegal’ then how come they aren’t shut down..or the biggest lie to themselves is; ‘we don’t see it that way’ truth is ‘subjective’. These kind of statements are evidence of their denial and doesn’t change one iota of the action of these criminals…. How did Bernie Madoff get by with his criminal activity for 20 years….they should read that and weep.
The power of thought reform works…it defies all logic and truth.
‘Their’ truths are half truths and mixed messages…by the thousands… and their actions never line up with their words…hypocrisy at it’s finest. Dangerous and destructive.
George’s lastest post is a perfect example..They will never admit they are defeated…’it is just ‘teaching moments’..just as you stated they won’t admit they LOST the lawsuit…again anyone that isn’t brainwashed can read the lawsuit and see that clearly. Orrin won’t admit they FAILED everyone by going to MV…it is just as Brent Hansen said from the PC texting him..I am telling everyone to go off autoship..they change the game as if that changes anything…they will never Admit to anything…but it will catch them in the end.
Speaking of the power of thought reform I read an article on Charles Manson, who is still alive in a California prison (at least at the time of the article) within the last 3 or 4 months that stated he STILL had 60,000 followers and received more mail than any other prisoner, ever! Now that is scary but proves even after all those years…the Power of Thought Reform/ Brainwashing works and robs people of themselves.
littledufflebagboy~
Sorry to say you have experienced what every single person does when they think they are losing you as a system count….you all of a sudden become real important….to their bottom line that is. They know if you go off system the chances of you EVER doing anything with the business is slim to none. So they will ‘chase’ you for a few months when ever they ‘need’ a ticket sold to the next event you will get a text or a call…giving you the hype of all hype to get there.
‘You just wait’… the worst has yet to come… of them stalking every single person that was in.. is in but not ‘doing anything’… or they think could be in… they will call all cross-line people they know that were in other leaders groups that quit…wouldn’t suprise me a bit if they don’t buy a ticket for their dogs, cats, and gerbils…you name it…come to the October & November Seminar’s..THEE Launch of the biggest LIEf..the Next Money defying scam (same oldscam with a new name)… these guys will be freaks trying to sell tickets to..every living.. breathing thing on the planet.
So.. Beware…just a warning..they will use their ‘best’ persuasive (hype,corecion, and manipulation)…it will be like the guy at the ball games… yelling ‘hotdogs’..hotdogs anyone…lol…only they will be yelling ‘tickets’…FREE…tickets…
You think I am joking….nope…but that is how histerical, desperate, and stalking others.. they will be. Good luck…don’t answer your phone or text over the next couple months…lol.. 🙂
wow thats crazy, i’ll also state i was on system with the team i think about 7 years. not all in or anything i knew i couldn’t afford that, except for like 3-4 months i tried but rang up credit cards real fast. gotta get a tool trunk! i think one of the other things a couple months ago i told my sponsor i had some money i wanted to get some tools and what should i get. he calls me a couple days later and said that his RT so called diamond (who hasn’t been to hawaii in two years obivously isn’t a diamond) said get ur major ticket, airplane ticket, and hotel then get tools. im like i got $200 extra to spare not $500-600. well u can make it happen u gotta get there for the big LIFE launch in nov. what a joke. this all kinda sux when u feel like this is a dude i used to hang out with shoot the shit with not just about business but whatever and its like a relationship after those many years of being a friend he has text me once in the past couple weeks instead of everyday joking around and stuff. but i guess once u quit the system u don’t wanna be around quiters and have that effect ur life or business. even my g/f said its b.s. they want u to go to these things and spend all this money but really don’t do anything for u or ur business. lol at least she saw through the bs.
littledufflebagboy~
You are best to cut your loses now and run…if your ‘friend’ is a ‘true friend’.. when he becomes a quitter..lol…then he may swollow his pride and come back and be a true friend..if not… well…you were better off to carry on anyway…life is too short to waist it on or surround yourself with people who are not genuin has stipulations and conditions tied to a friendship..just my opinion and what we had to do.
Doesn’t it seem ironic..most people learn what ‘true friendship’ is in 1st grade..
It is diffi’cult’ I know but if you only knew all the supposed friends..including the PC and Orrin and Laurie that had conditons tied to the so called friendships..then you would know…you are not alone.
All of us here have experienced the exact same thing. Good luck with staying as far away as you can.. 🙂
Webelieved~
Aaah yes..the gag order the criminals broke the law and didn’t follow, forgot for a minute about that criminal activity. Criminals do eventually get caught…. 🙂
Webelieved~
“Sacrifice Someone”…hmm…that is way too cultish..lol..Yes we know all too well how they will be on the rampage of trying to give every Tom, Dick, and Harry..including their animals fish, infants…illusionary friends..that said they would come to get the stalkers off their backs etc…lol…..sell it how the corner newspaper salesman used too,..ha…’GET YOUR’….’Right here’…. seminar/major ticket for the ‘best’ firework show anyone on the planet has ever seen….that is their LIEf scam…I am refering to…lol
They are sooo predictable it is pathetic…well at least for the informed that participated and believed in them and their money defying scam. Way too sorry for the participation!
Used to be ‘all in’~
I missed the link to Joe Darkangelo’s speaking engagement Business….This is in direct competition to the biggest Lief team… ‘speaking’…..Do you suppose they stole his profit-sharing? Their hypocrisy never ceases to amaze me! I suppose Joe is on stage telling everyone he is financially free from their bogus lief system.
Team Lief is the latest and greatest scheme to keep more people engaged in the corrupt business that OW has cooked up in his medievel sorcery shop. He has cast a spell on so many people. Because he is edified as one of the greatest leaders of all time (You got to be kidding) No one could ever believe that he is someone who just might be lying and manipulating others for his benefit. I wonder if OW would be willing to share with the world all of the profit sharing over the past 4 or 5 years to see how much the different Team members made? I bet that would be interesting reading. I doubt that OW would do that because my suspicion is that it would reveal that his leaders are making a lot less than the poor duped newbie is hearing about at the majors. When I first got in I thought all of these guys were rolling in the dough. That so many were having great success. But reading here on this post and comparing notes (Once you realize cross lining keeps you froml the truth) I have come to realize that very few are really making it. Oh yeah they fake it but they aint makin it. It seems the only ones really making it are a few at the top who keep all the others in the dark down below at the bottom of the pile. For anyone who wants to know the truth do this…at the next open you attend stand up and ask all those who are really making a significant amount of money to stand up and tell you what they are pulling in. Oh, I guess I would not do that. Because you would probably get a bunch of guys giving out fake results. Just go and ask the guy who brought you there to show you his pay checks or tax return for the past year. I think you all know what I am getting at.
John~
LOL …Your post was very descriptive and made me laugh even though it always has a sad and serious… ‘side effect’ tied to the truth…. of this last and greatest scheme. Thanks for sharing it. I agree we all know that if he shared the true profit-sharing numbers and facts for those who did make a few bucks…it is a far cry from financial freedom..even though before taxes and exspenses it ‘appears’ as if it is a decent chuck of change..but that real story will never be verified because they would flop if people saw how few really could make a living. 🙂
Too many people do not know the desperate financial situation many of the TEAM Leaders have found themselves. Of course Darkangelo is trying to pimp himself out wherever he can–when he filed for bankruptcy in 2009, he listed $253,179 in CREDIT CARD DEBT on top of a $724,544 mortgage. He listed one car–a 2003 Mercedes–so I imagine Laura must drive a leased car. All this with a total income of less than $5,500 per month, or $66,000 per year. Yet I would bet money that he claims he is qualified to counsel on financial and business matters. Sort of like George Guzzardo and Mark Huber? (Huber also filed for bankruptcy in 2009. He listed $75,000 in credit cards, $34,000 in back income taxes, plus $4,700 still due on a lease car he turned in.)
Ginger~
Isn’t that amazing and Darkangelo was recognized as a PC in the summer of 2008..that would be a year of that ‘buckets of money’ rolling in… financially independent and being ‘free’; the pinnicle of all success in the Team… when the bankruptcy happened. $66,000 per year at PC..Really?…not lookin too good, especially when one knows that you have to sell your soul to get there and get those ill-gotten gains off many thousands (who had to lose money).
How does one rack up $253,179 in CC debt? Must really had a desire to keep up some obviously ridculous fake image or spent way too much on tools, perhaps that is what it takes to buy a PCship?…I can’t even image why someone would allow themselves to get that much in CC debt! Wow you are right..who would be dumb enough to take that financial advice?
Does anyone have any thoughts/info on the books promoted through Team? Specifically the Top 5/Top 50. Do you find them helpful in and of themselves? Or are they dangerous?
Darkangelo has been in direct contact with me on and off over the last six months. Many phone conversations, interesting posts here, is this all public knowledge?
Brent~
I am assuming you are talking about the bankruptcy, and I beleive it is public knowledge. You can look those things up but I have only seen it where you have to pay for that information. I could be wrong someone else might know how to get that for free. This is the second person who has come here with that information, someone else confirmed it also, I just can’t remember who and under what post.
Apparently you are friends with Darkangelo and so is this something you were not aware of or do you believe is incorrect? As far as him being recognized as a PC in 2008, that I can confirm but also know he is not, at least on the Team website listed with the other featured PC.
mattjer22~
Your question is ridiculous and isn’t worth wasting time, even answering. Read the rest of the site you might find the answer.
Brent~
I am pretty clear on how you feel about MLM in general but I am curious what is your view of the Team and the systems attatched to the MLM?
@Speak and @Brent – I just published a lengthy post detailing the bankruptcy filing documents for the Darkangelo (9/2009), the Cullens (4/2009), and the Hubers (10/2010).
Mattjer22~
Perhaps I should back up and maybe I owe you an apology. First I assumed and shouldn’t have that you are on the Team and just were stirring the pot, as every defender of the Team does when they come here. If that is not you and your question is sincere then I sincerely apologize. If you are here for the reason I assumed then my first post stands and would apply, but only you know that answer. You could let me know.
Books in general including the ones that the team (they are not exclusive); uses by different authors are not ‘dangerous’ in and of themselves. The danger lies in how they use and ‘control the information’ and especially cd’s (talks from stage), all materials, to meet their agenda… This is always to keep you buying their materials and going to seminars etc.
You could get a good brief, clear understanding of this by reading Steve Hassan’s Bite Model (see link on here). But I would also recommend you read everything you can on cults, thought reform, undue influence, mind control, and brainwashing. You will get your question (s) answered, I am confident of that.
Amthrax~ Thanks for the letting us know.
SYT,
No worries. I realize now that my question could be interpreted the way you took it. No harm no foul.
No, my story: I’ve been in Team since Mar ’11. We were very hesitant to jump in because this would be our 3rd attempt at an mlm business. But what attracted me to this was the leadership piece. I’ve always enjoyed teaching others truth.
LIFE wasn’t in “the plan” I heard but that something big was coming. Against the internal red flags that were raised at the outset, I ignored them (I believe I saw someone here calling it “suspending your belief”). I just figured that once I get further in the business I will learn more and these objections will be answered along the way through the books, cd’s, etc… What’s sad is, for years I’ve known the biblical model for getting into business is to count the cost. The fool is the one who doesn’t and winds up in ruins for it. I now see how the sign up rate depends primarily on an emotional decision by you at whatever next meeting you attend. How unhealthy!…and destructive! Emotional decisions have ruined many of lives (gambling, infidelity, etc…)
Before this site, I was completely unaware of the Cult/Mind control aspects of this biz. In fact, over the past few weeks, I believe the Lord has been stirring my heart to really examine what is going on and to finally deal with the red flags that have been raised since the beginning…and which still have never been answered sufficiently. I finally got to the point with the Lord that “not my will, but Your will be done”, and that is when pieces have started to fall into place. The fog started to lift and I was able to separate my emotions of the Dream of freedom only possible through Team, and my associations and was beginning to see more clearly. I will say, however, that it is still hard to hear what many of you are saying about the leaders here since I’ve never known them in that light. Not that you aren’t speaking truth. It’s just that I can’t relate. I’m sure in time that may change.
But honestly, the main reasons I am compelled to walk away from this hasn’t been the Cult aspects or Corruption issues (since I haven’t been in long enough to be exposed to that info), but it has been essentially two things:
1. Dream building – I have struggled with this concept from the beginning, and only in efforts to be the “supportive wife” did she reluctantly (internally) put up a dream board. But I found myself resistant to even looking at it since putting it up. As a christian, I’ve always been taught that material gain should never be your motivation to succeed. It may be a result of God’s blessing for faithfulness to Him, but never the motivating factor. No matter how much rationalizing told me, I could never come to grips with it. I just played along to get along…I guess. At some point I even convinced myself that Team will simply be the vehicle that allows me freedom to pursue my ministerial and homeschooling desires. But in the end, the boats, cars, houses, vacations were still constantly used as the primary carrot dangled in front of us and our prospects.
Ultimately, I believe “dream building” is an unbibilical concept and one that I cannot embrace. Is it wrong to dream? NO. But it must always follow the biblical principle of Ps 37:4 “Delight yourself in the Lord and He will give you the desires of your heart”. Team seems to preach that backwards. “You have all these desires in your heart and if you follow this system, the Lord will bless you with them (oftentimes the last statement not included). The key is to delight yourself in the Lord FIRST, and my opinion is that as you do this essentially it is HIS desires that become your desires…and that may never include the usual list of goodies we hear week in and week out that “bring happiness”.
2. Within 6 months, I finally started to get serious and start reading the books. I had read most of PP early on, but just this past month I started reading How to have confidence… and almost instantly red flags were coming up. It was the whole idea that we need to love/like ourselves more in order to like others. I find this concept nowhere in scripture except the proof text people use in Mark 12:31 “love your neighbor as yourself”. This isn’t teaching we should love ourselves more so we can love others. It’s teaching that we should recognize how much we really do love ourselves (we feed, clothe, shelter ourselves…even to the point of selfish personal satisfaction) and that’s how much we should love others. The distortion in the early chapter of this book got me to thinking, “how can I recommend a Top 5 book to my downline if I myself don’t even agree with a premise contained in it?” “And if I just tell them, ‘well, just skip that part or don’t read this book, aren’t I going against the very leaders of our business who are telling us these books made them successful?” Kind of self-defeating if you ask me.
Anywho, I finally acknowledged yesterday during a 2 hour phone call with my best friend who I got into the biz and who was excelling at it more than I have been that Team is no longer for me. He has no idea how to handle this, and this may put a strain on things…a consequence I would regret. I haven’t even told my upline yet and am quite anxious to see if he handles me how some of you have been handled upon your departure. I truly believe (at this point – and that may change depending on how I’m treated after I communicate to him I’m out) that he really wants to help people and believes this biz works. However, I no longer firmly believe he is really making $80k a year now, but that’s really insubstantial to me now.
The ultimate question I had to ask myself before leaving Team was, “Can I do this business without compromising my Christian principles?” And after much thought, I have concluded the answer is “NO”. So the whole point of my initial question about the Top books was really geared towards “should I even still consider reading them outside of Team, or just leave them alone and move on?” Insight into the philosophies and principles within them would determine whether I should or not. Are they really just manipulation tactics, or are they really built on sound business principles and developing good people skills without compromising any biblical principle?
I understand if some of you guys have left for other reasons and really have no input on this, but hey, I guess the main point is that we have all seen the light and can now move on. I will say, it has been like a huge gorilla of guilt has jumped off my back since I don’t feel the pressure to call everyone left on my “chicken list”. That anxiety and guilt was stifling me. I’m so grateful that I remained largely paralyzed in my fear so now I don’t have a long list of people to call and apologize to for attempting to drag them into the mire with me.
And thanks for the Hassan referrals. I’ll definitely look into that.
mattjer22~
WOW…I am sincerely speechless and I truly owe you my sincerest apology. For someone who hasn’t been long I am totally amazed at your faith and post!! Thanks so much and I am truly sorry.
I believe you will discern what books are truly helpful to you, as I said it is that they take bits and pieces out of those books to serve their agenda and I will be honest I cannot even read those books today because of it.
I really hope you keep sharing.
SYT,
Thanks. You are too kind. You know, partly I’m grateful that I don’t have to experience as much emotional jet lag you guys have had to go through, but my heart does go out to y’all who have suffered. Some of the things you all say about what has happened to you just blows my mind. I mean, taking legs from you and giving to others…?! I’m truly baffled that that can even happen. I just wanna ask “WHY would they even do that?!” Mind boggling…
I’m also grateful that I won’t have to spend as much time deprogramming myself while trying to readjust to life w/o Team. I can imagine it has been a tough road for some here. I can see the lingering bitterness in some who’ve been burnt, and I know that must be hard to work through.
It’s amazing how much clarity becomes more in view as you begin to unplug. I think I was fortunate. We actually unplugged from system back in June, but only because we were struggling financially and couldn’t even afford to do the basic pkg. I scrounged up money each month for opens and seminars, but even that was taxing. So the deprogramming prolly began then (IMO, it was divine intervention that it happened this way). But the one thing I couldn’t stand was the constant guilt I was living under for not going go-getter every month (actually only went GG one outta six mts). I hated that nagging feeling that I needed to be calling contacts (Was that the winner in me battling the loser?! haha). I could never just look at people for who they are and just enjoy their company, but always they had to be a prospect. “Oh, this guy’d be great in Team, I should get his number. Ugh, what if he rejects me, etc…” I was never at ease, never able to fully relax. For right when I began to, some thought about my inactivity popped back in and the guilt ensued. This imposed guilt led me to feel like I was letting my family down b/c I wasn’t pushing hard enough to accomplish our dream of freedom that we wanted so bad. I think this really affected how I related to my wife and kids. I don’t believe I had really been fully enjoying my time with them when I wasn’t at the day job because I felt like I needed to be out there showing plans and the guilt weighed me down. How did I not see this before?! This must be part of the Mind control/thought reform aspect of this type of business (on a side note – Is this true of EVERY mlm out there? Is that just the inherent nature of this type of business model?) Nevertheless, whether some mlm’s are good or not, I have decided it is NOT for our family ever again no matter what the promise or how “little” the cost. Now I am enjoying almost every minute of my time with them and see how precious it is and I am truly grateful to have them. (Not saying that no one in Team doesn’t enjoy their families)
Another thing that frustrated me about the biz was how we couldn’t be upfront about how much it really costs to “be successful” in Team. I know some of you have expressed the same thing here. This goes back to my whole understanding of the biblical principle of counting the cost. I mean, on the one hand we tell people, “the cost is worth the potential reward…and that there virtually really is no cost”. “It’s only $90 to get in…” But really…that isn’t actually “counting the cost”. Why couldn’t we tell them, “Well the cost will be anywhere between $200-$400 a month to really make this work”. Of course, we couldn’t because most would never get in. But that is a HUGE disconnect for me. Let the business stand on it’s own with full disclosure of how it runs. How I did not see that not showing the people the whole movie but only the “trailer” is very deceptive is just crazy! I recognize you won’t be able to grasp every element of Team before getting in, but it’s actually encouraged that they understand very little before signing up.
In the end, I still have deep affections for my immediate upline (who consequently is pushing for RT by Jan) and esp my downline. I, too, hope one day they can be free from the bondage that held me and won’t be too ruined if/when they walk away. And like some of you, I will be right there for them to help them pick up the pieces.
Mattjer22, I appreciate your post and even further your honesty. The emotional conflict you have been feeling is simply COGNITIVE DISSONANCE, and you have made a great decision. There is NO way that you could do, and succeed, with “this” business without compromising your Christian principles. You see, how could a model envelope Christian principles when mathematically 90% plus of all of those involved must lose money? Now the argument that they would have you believe is that just by being involved, they have all gained something of value, but that is simply a moot point. Most of us join MLM because we are brought in for the business aspect, not to gain something of value by association. If you are not familiar with cognitive dissonance, I recommend googling it and reading up on it. Understanding this simple term will help you understand your friend, and deal with others in the future.
SYT, I will respond to your question when I have some time to put together a full analysis of the new Life compensation plan. I will be emailing Amthrax a document to upload along with the analysis, In general, I believe, business systems are critical to success. The problem with business systems in MLM is that they are based on a lie, the lie being that MLM is a viable model. If MLM was truly a model for the masses then I can see implementing a system for the good of all. But, a system should be either FREE, or sold at a minimum expense, as it should be merely a tool that brings focus to the primary business. But since MLM is not viable, neither are systems.
Thanks Brent. I do remember a cd where Chris (maybe it was Orrin) was talking about cognitive dissonance. He was using Brady as an example where Chris had spoken early on in his talk (vital behaviors of STP) where he said the he NEVER misses a plan, and then later on towards the end of the talk he said that he recommended that you double book your plans and if you have to cancel one of them. Actually, hearing that a few weeks ago during my intense internal conflict over what to do about all this played a part in breaking down the seeming impenetrable walls of Team’s credibility to me.
On the whole “I have gained so much long before having made any money” was something we became very good at. (haha – how else would we convince ourselves to stay in without having money to show for it?) At some point we even started telling people, “if I never make a dime in this business (which was very close to a true statement), I am still changed forever with all the leadership materials I’ve learned from”. Eventually I stopped saying that because I began to feel disingenuous about saying that because I knew others didn’t care so much about that. “SHOW ME THE MONEY!!” was still at the top of everyone’s mind.
But the part about most of the ppl not making any money was something I never realized. We were constantly told this is the easiest distributor friendly mlm out there, and I believed it. Partially because I was still in the 6 mth time period that it takes for someone to start earning $2-3k. I felt I was half way there and as soon as that second leg started going, it was off to the races. Also, with LIFE coming on, I would learn that everyone will start making money immediately upon signing up. Decemeber 15th is when everyone will start collecting. They broke down the comp plan some, but of course said it was likely to change because Orrin is always trying to “make it better to get us more money”. If that is true, I may never know. And now I’m ok with that. I learned early on from my upline that the “fear of loss is greater than the hope of reward”, and that kept me in at times. No longer does that skewed reality grip me. Anyways, they said that if ppl saw a check that first month upon signing up in LIFE, that would likely keep them in much longer than normal. Honestly, my dreams shifted from a Huge house on some property, etc… to just wanting to break even and let the business pay for itself so I could afford to stay in it. Like I said, I had to get off system half way through for financial reasons, and I was just holding out hope that LIFE would change all that with my downline plugging in to it. (Part of me is curious to see if any of that is even partially true with those who are still in below me – we’ll see.) Even if it does happen, I still couldn’t press on in it with a clear conscience.
Mattjer, I have done a quick glance over the Life compensation plan, but as stated earlier will be sending Amthrax a thorough analysis to post on this blog. With that analysis I will be including a step by step tutorial of what and how to analyze a MLM compensation plan. The majority of people out there get so bogged down with the rhetoric, that sometimes a full understanding can become a daunting task. Until I have finished this document and it becomes apparently clear I will tell you this. FROM THE NETWORK, the maximum success ratio will be 1 in 11 who are on the basic $50 package, meaning the mathematics of their compensation plan has a built in 91% failure rate. Nine percent is the maximum amount of people who can expect to earn enough from the network to even cover their basic training package of $50.00. Knowing this basic ratio is the very first critical piece of understanding any company. By understanding what it takes to break even, and where compensation dollars are allocated, you can know and understand the motive of the entire organization. Knowing the motive will eliminate all need for discussion, because an organization either exists to help people, or to profit from people, and I think you already know which animal you are dealing with here.
Now don’t be drawn in by a simple “3 and yours is free” program, because for now, that is yet to be proven. I point blank asked one of the Team leaders if it was 3 at retail, or 3 at wholesale, and he confirmed that it was 3 at retail. Some companies in the market today are implementing 3 and its free programs whether retail or wholesale. You understand don’t you that keeping 3 customers purchasing motivational stuff at retail, could be difficult to do? Especially when they discover that the people they are being taught by on the CDs have virtually destroyed the lives of thousands of followers, manipulated the masses, and many have declared bankruptcy (as shown on this blog by Amthrax). In your opinion, does this qualify them to teach you about leadership?
I chuckle as I read here that you are still in the “6 month period” that it takes someone to begin earning $2-$3K per month. You need to understand, there are many with Team who have been in the 10-15 YEAR period and are still not earning the $2-$3k per month. Many of those have worked hard, and been loyal to the system, but DO NOT UNDERSTAND THE GAME THEY ARE PLAYING. If they have been with Team in MV they have a maximum success ratio of 3.2% (MV statistics show it is actually .5% who are able to cover autoship). Yes that is less than 1/2 of 1% in the entire world of mv that can even earn enough to buy a box of juice. Why? Because of the compensation mathematics. Every MLM has compensation mathematics which usually tend to invalidate their model, to help you understand mathematics and the roll they play in your success or failure, I quote a piece done my @Michael Collins. Hope it helps.
[Editor’s Note: Added blockquote and formatting around Collin’s requoted section for better readability]
Mattjer22~
Sorry didn’t get back sooner and I agree you have made the right decision. Thanks for everything you have shared and Brent nailed it with the Cognitive Dissonance, here is a video, that I think will be of value on Cognitive Dissonance & Confirmation Bias.
Brent looking forward to your anaylsis.
My husband recently signed a ‘Let’s Get Started’ form for TEAM and enrolled for the 4 month auto renew EBC program and bought some cds with a ‘friend’ of ours. Since then I have successfully convinced him, with help from this site, that it’s all a scam and he wants out. Can anyone here tell me the quickest way for him to cancel his membership at TEAM? I can’t find any proceedures or policies (surprise??) on their site for this and obviously don’t want to clue in the ‘friend’ who recruited him unless we have to. Also, does anyone have any suggestions about how to deal with this ‘friend’ and his future attempts to keep my husband in the ‘business’? I don’t want to lose the friendship if I don’t have to. Thank you in advance.
Hmm…I think I contacted support and cancelled via support. Perhaps it changed now, but that was 2 years ago. Since the EBC subscription is auto-renewed he should remove his credit card info from teh site entirely. I hope this helps.
Voice of Reason~
You can find the new Policy & Procedures right here under “Life Policy & Procedures Sign-up and Compensation Plan Documents” under Top Posts. There is a link you can click on and read it, this would be good for you to print and let your husband read it! They control your life and can take your business for ANY reason! It also would be a good document to show your ‘upline’ because they probably don’t even know the facts! I read in there you can quit, and cancel any time, but I believe it said it has to be written. So I would read that and then send it to their support as Izzy said. I believe if it is within 30 days you should get your money back? Could be longer, you will find it in there.
How to deal with his friend? As long as your husband has made his mind up, and doesn’t fall for the ‘listening to the cds’ that his ‘friend’ will probably try his best to push with a vengence. I am sure he will be able to resist their tactics…but beware they will use their best. After you have cancelled everything and gotten your refund then it might be wise to be honest with your the friend and tell them why you made the decision and would like to remain friends.
Then you will see how it plays out. It is very rare that they are true to any friendships ‘outside’ of the business even if it is family. I have seen and heard of the division in my family and friends where they avoid and won’t even speak to each other and that is almost in all cases. It is like the saying goes…’you will find out who your true friends are’..
So just prepare yourself. It is too bad but that is how almost all cases end up. The good news is you have each other and got out before any major damages occured!
Congradulations on your success!!! 🙂
Thank you Speak. He hasn’t signed anything with LIFE, only TEAM thank GOD!. I was assuming that was not an automatic transfer to LIFE without signing your life over on their contract and they would have separate P&Ps.
The only thing he has paperwork for is the 4 month auto renew for the TEAM Electronic Business Center, which I was able to log into and cancel. They state however they will still bill monthly for one month then switch back to bill the 4 month option again. So they have his credit card information in their system. There is no place there to view the policies and procedures for TEAM, and the paper he did sign says he is bound to abide by them, even though he was not provided them.
I can’t thank you enough for your time and experience in this matter! Perhaps someone here has a copy of the Policies and Procedures for TEAM I could see? I’m sure it’s just a matter of contacting the proper people with a letter of cancellation, I just want to be sure to follow the proper procedures and not spin my wheels and waste more time.
Team Office Phone # 810-732-9310
Team customer Service 888-832-6808
You’ll probably get stuck in a recorded loop, but my advice is to leave a message (or try to get different people and leave a bunch of messages) and threaten to contact the Better Business Bureau and the state attorney general if they don’t immediately give you a refund. They are obsessed with having a good reputation with the BBB.
Former Round Table~
Welcome to the Round Table Meeting..I mean Amthrax site….lol…Thanks but I didn’t think they had a live number you could talk directly to the office anymore and thought it was done all through email. Great Advice…Thanks.. 🙂
Voice of Reason~
Hope we helped! I doubt and it doesn’t sound like you get transfered into LieF…Why?…Because they then couldn’t CHARGE you to get in to that too!
Just a guess but I think they are keeping the TEAM so to speak because that is where they can fool Dallin into thinking they will get people to ‘spill more juice’ with this ‘new-decades old system they got goin on backed by their LieFFFF Police….hahahahaha in other words it is a shell or front and the LieF is the ‘real deal’ with the New line of sponsorship the fixed up nice to keep the TOP dawgs Wealthy….Nota thing has changed (except the name) and they just shifted their new scam into and old fundamentally flawed con game.. but they got schemier and more bold…lhol… 🙂
Good luck and keep us posted!
Perhaps their LIE…F will be a ‘non-profit’….LMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Thanks everyone! I didn’t mention another friend signed the same TEAM paperwork with my husband…he’s coming over to our house after work today so I can show him the light. We’ll be blowing up those phone numbers all weekend and will certainly keep you posted with our progress. Thanks again for the tips!
The Team Policy & Procedures? Hmmm…couldn’t help there….never seen one in over a decade and didn’t know they really had one. We did sign a contract though a 20+ pager they Never gave us a copy or let us READ it! Yep…there is only one reason anyone does this…Is Because they have something to HIDE or know they would be doomed by what they did to many by stealing their profit-sharing and Teams and many other unethical, immoral, and illegal things…so sorry I don’t think they have one..lest they just made it up…lol…that could be very likely too..So I believe Former RT had the best advice! 🙂
“Perhaps their LIE…F will be a ‘non-profit’….LMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!”
Just like TEAM and Monavie for 99% of distributors. Har!
I would like to see all them 99% er’s try and prove us wrong with their 1099’s…Oh that is right they can’t…they have the LieF P&P Police..And what they gonna do when they come for you? 🙂
webelieved:
Not yet but I am giving them a call tomorrow. I can’t wait to see what they think. They were hurt worse than we were and were making more money than we were. Gladly though they are doing great and they are glad to be out of the cult too!
Yes I knew he left. Alot is left unsaid with what happened there. I won’t comment on it because it is all heresay and I respect the man enought to let him tell his own story some day. He still has some “leaders” or “scammers” more like it that go to his church.
I agree! Like Orrin said, “You can fool some of the people some of the time, but you can’t fool all of the people all of the time.” Or something like that. I am glad he left too and yes I hope he tells his story some day.
How long have you been out?
I did read the list. I thought Matt Abraham was still in. I didn’t know he left too. I don’t know where Florence and Haugen’s teams went. I believe Haugen left when he realized it was all about the tools and not building the mv business. Haugen offers free stuff on his site. He doesn’t rape and pillage people so they can get the help they need to build their business. Funny how they explained his leaving isn’t it. Wondered back in a day when all of a sudden no graingers, nor other big people. No one said a word and acted like they didn’t even know they were gone. I remember asking where did so and so go? They must have seen the writing on the wall before we did. Why is everyone so afraid? They are just people. If the truth is the truth how can fear come with it? Maybe I am ignorant and something bad is going to happen because I called a tree a tree. Am I missing something?
No we were not. When we qualified for profit sharing I don’t even remember if we signed a paper. I am sure we did sign something but it was NO CONTRACT. If I can remember anything it was a simple piece of paper. We weren’t big in the business. Like I stated earlier, we reached turbo 25, lost it, reached it, close to turbo 50 a couple times but could not reach that yet. And that was building the business 6 nights a week sometimes 7 for YEARS!!!!!!! We have been to the Mark’s home in Florida and Michigan. The Woodward’s old home in Grand Blanc. Many more homes listening to many more lies. I am reading the stuff on going to a million in 2016. Wow is all I have to say. That should answer your questions on Pastor Dickie. That is precisely what I believe happened too!!! Also I do know about the egregonious act someone did too. I agree with what Amthrax posted and will not comment.
Also you never answered on my question. Should I be worried I am telling the truth?
I can see that, but like you stated, I am only speaking on my experiences and opinions of Team. I am not an attorney also and cannot give legal advice. I too am not going to stay silent anymore either. I found this site and glad I did!! I am keeping my first name and I don’t care who sees it. Why should I be worried? I am the one that got screwed all in the name of the almighty dollar. I went to highschool with Orrin. The friend on facebook that commented and consequently led me to this sight went to school with him also. She is a TRUE Christian and I feel compelled to warn her. I havn’t talked to her in years and years. You know fb is just a place you reaquant with those you knew. I don’t even get on it but only a couple times a week to see how people are doing. Never speak on it. Any advice? You got me gunshy with messaging her and warning her. I think I will pray about it and go from there.
I am quite disturbed with all I am reading. How can something so corrupt keep on keepin on? It is truly flabbergasting to me. I now realize how unisolated of an incident I went through. A MA Zing is all I can say.
I do believe you reap what you sow!!!!!!! It will be reaped on them like hot coals when it comes pouring down. And all that money they idolized in the name of Christ will be wiped away in a milisecond.
They didn’t need the contract to do that. They already were doing it. I guess now that they have the contract in place they feel that makes it ok. Whatever. I can’t believe hoards of people would run to a business in this economy that isnt a business but just a systems business. But hey, I guess only time will tell. You can see the more desperate they are to keep their lifestyle the more drastic decisions they make. I am going to keep checking out this site regularly to watch and see how the house of cards fall. Or shall I say Quixsand.
I can’t do it privately. She is not a friend now, but a friend from highschool years ago. I guess I could ask to meet her for lunch in a message. I don’t know.
Robin, thanks so much for sharing. I’m sure curious – did this have anything to do with why the Darkangelo’s went PC so quickly and out of the blue when we first joined Mona Vie?
webelieved – The Darkangelo’s, Birtles and I believe the Harteis’s all went PC at the June 2008 major, which was the first or second one after hooking up with Mona Vie I believe
Wow!! I did not know that so many people went PC and then “lost it.” When did Jim and Deloras Martin go PC? Was is before or after Monvie
@used to be “all-in”
I don’t know abouth the Darkangelo’s and the others you mentioned. I was stil all in myself and at that time thought nothing about what was happening. I remember seeing them all cross the stage for that and was “all fired up” for them. It was around May that things were just starting to become real fishy for us and we weren’t putting two plus two together quite yet.
Robin~
You went to school with Orrin?..lol..Then do you have the year book that shows the story he told hundred times from stage? Said it was what his peers wrote about him in the year book …”Arguing, Aruging early and late, if a line were crooked..he would argue it straight!.”
Orrin also confesses of the Bully he was..and once a bully always a bully. Just like once a con always a con.
It seems very fitting, especially because in my opinion, is what they do…they are ‘crooked’ and trying to argue (convince/persuade/brainwash) others their scam and them is ‘straight’…haha. I would never be worried about telling the truth. I agree with webelieved, there is nothing to lose, and at the time we came here it was to get the truth out but remember a lot of us were ‘retired’ and our sole income was the Team, when taken was all we had, after they stole it; we had to start all over, not to mention the stress, and trying to sort it all out.
So a lawsuit was very real and not only could we not afford to be dragged in and didn’t want to be gagged. Now, today would be a whole different story. The evidence just keeps pilling up, which is the sole reason they have a clause in their Contract that anyone who gets started is gagged and forced into arbitration…the same ‘unconscionable’ arbitritation process Orrin said Amway had and you cannot bring a ‘class action’ suit, against them. They also, have the ‘no-crossling’ clause…imagine that..they can’t keep hide their dirty little corrupted secrets, with out it!
Well, none of us signed that contract and the one we did sign Orrin himself has refused not only to let us read it or take to an attorney at the time we signed it, he REFUSES to give us a copy. So their ‘new’ contract gags & controls everything. But as you state; they Will reap what they have sown, one way or another. He lives in fear everday of his life as all con artists do, just wondering when he will be really found out, and eventually you will be caught and brought to justice.
Here is just one example, Bernie Madoff, as destructive as his Ponzi Scheme was to so many lives and the luxury lifestyle he lived off the backs of so many peoples life savings and investments, stated in an interview that he is the happiest he has been in 20 years! Why?.. Because he longer lives in fear! It may have taken 20 years, but he was brought to justice!
Emily~
Here is the list of PC: Summer 2007
Vansbuskirk,(no longer listed as PC) Woodward, Brady, Marks, Lewis, Stroh,(no longer PC) Guzzardo (of the real line of sponsorship) then there is the one’s that were solicated; Haugen, Crawford, Smith, Hamiltion, Florence, Sims.
The one’s that were recognized but didn’t hold it as “all in” pointed out; Winter 2008; DiSalvatore, Ence (not orignially part of O, line of sponsorship) & Martins (no longer PC).
Summer 2008 PC; Jerry & Polly Hateis (not in O group) Birtles, Darkangelo. (no longer listed as PC)
@Speak the truth,
I could not imagine what you guys had to endure when your sole income came from Team. To have someone wipe out your ONLY source of income is unconscienable. To not even care how one feeds their family, keeps their homes, and pays their bills is so wicked!!!! Thankfully we were already set up financially with the RIGHT teaching and my husband kept his job (Thank God). We did not take an unbearable financial burden and be left with nothing.
We did however take 10’s of thousands of dollars away from our children. Could have been a nice college degree for them paid in cash. But life sometimes sends expensive lessons.
It makes alot of sense the way you put it when you talked about your identity. I understand now why it would be important to keep it hidden. Thanks for claifying that for me.
Orrin was above me in grades so I can’t tell you about the yearbook. I just knew him from school. Vicky (his sister) was above me too. From my knowledge I don’t think she is still in Team and they were doing well. They spoke from stage a couple of times. I am glad that just at the point we were qualifying to speak we didn’t get to. I would have hated to have thought I was helping all those people and found out later it was all a pharce. But I am sure you all feel the same way too. I believe it is only when you stay knowing it’s a scam and still speaking on stage that it is not and you can “all get your dreams and goals” that is a real moral issue.
My mom and I were talking about gambling last weekend and her analogy fits perfect here. She was telling me she was listening to a christian radio station and the pastor was speaking on gambling and how wrong it is. He was stating that when you gamble and lose you took from your family money that was meant for them. People suffer when they lose. Some have a problem gambling and lose. All the destruction that comes from that. When you gamble and win, the winner took that money that came from some one else’s misery and destruction. Ever since she put it like that I have no desire to go and gamble. (I went a few times here and there thinking it was only entertainment). This is exactly what the leaders do in that business!!!!! They knowing take money from other people’s suffering!!!!!! Very sad indeed.
You are right. I can see they would be living in fear waiting for the house that was built on sand to come crashing down. Just as Madoff waited 20 years, his still came crashing down. Only a matter of time before all that destruction and lies comes crashing in and SHAME on them because now their children will suffer for their mistakes!!!! Some legacy to leave huh.
What is crazy is once the “kool-aid” leaves your system how clear it is all the people who were truly close to Orrin have disappered one by one, but 3.
I am so glad that once you take the red pill you can go back and take the blue one!!!!!!!!
or should I say vomit the red pill back up!!!!:)
Robin~
You summed it up in one word..WICKED and as we know, what you give; will come back 100 fold.
Read the book of James… it describes the Rich who refused to pay the laborer their earnd pay for the day, which is what kept them from starving for that day! I heard a pastor talk about this example of the Rich.. this meaning they defrauded and defaulted even though they had the money to pay for those who labored and earned it.
They were ruthless, murdering man of depriving him of his living but then comes…sounds real familiar… the future judgement and according to this Pastor; “The Cry of these people”.. have been heard by the Lord of Armies and wil be dealt with by a God who is big enough to deal with their cheating,defrauding, injustice, mistreatment, and unfairness.
Nothing escapes the knowing of God and he has been listening all along. He even talked about the Danger in the pursuit of the “American Dream”; the lust for wealth, it is only to satisfy oneself, self-promoting, and self-indulgence. Also, brought up a study about those who are the real ‘givers,’ and the majority (middle class), those who have less to give… it wasn’t the Rich, although there are some legitatmate wealthy people who sincerely give, (Bill & Melinda Gates for one).. but the majority are the middle class.
Hording, stealing, cheating, defrauding, defaulting, and not paying those you owe.. testifies to your lack of trust and You have fattened your hearts for the slaughter!
“Owe No Man anything”…pay up your debts and those you owe…. God has been listening all along!
Does anyone know if the Darkangelo’s are still involved with the team??? I knew them when I was a part of all this very sad business back in Michigan.
@webelieve.
Like you said, we all did it NOT knowing, but once the veil was lifted we STOPPED!!! Big difference. Don’t beat yourself up. I did the same thing and would have on stage if I had gotten there sooner. We didn’t know!. We believed the deception. There is a difference between ignorant and stupid. We were ignorant of the facts, but once known did the moral and ethical thing. I too was arrogant and judgemental and didn’t even realize it!!!! Can you say WHAT????????????????? But it is true. And I try not to be judgemental. If I didn’t walk in someone’s shoes I don’t know what they are going through. Now this does not apply to Orrin and the rest because it is blatent what they do.
@speakthetruth
You are so right!!!
Thanks everyone for this wonderful outlet. I hate to see others go through hurt but it is comforting to know I am not the only one and understand and know how each other feels.
I am still currently in the team and signed up in life. I dont hide my name like most do on blogs because i have no reason to. There are a handful of people on here that say they were in higher ranks within team and left for various reasons of lack of integrity for the most part. I am at a crossroad in what i want to do because I have gained a lot from my time with TEAM most important to me I became a christian because of it, but I have seen some people that were making decent money leave and am just questioning some things I guess. Just wondering why you guys hide your names when giving your testimony of your bad experience? from my point of view if you dont put your names on it how can i really know it’s true? How can i really know you were at higher levels in the team? thanx for any help and info you have given and can give. (sorry to the moderator, i did in fact already make this same comment on another post i just realized i might get more answers in this on)
Webelieved,
This a very simple, yet profound statement, because you hit the nail right on the head.
I cannot believe the number of times I have ‘blamed’ others for their lack of success. Cognitive dissonance requires that we change our thinking and belief system in order to justify our actions. I knew I was done when I got to the point I would look across the table at husband and wife, telling them how great it was, and all the while thinking in my mind that there was no way in HELL that they could ever do what I was doing, and had done.
The stupidity of my paradigm is that I never questioned the mathematics of the model, or the compensation plan. You see, the system is designed to make us focus on ourselves so much ie. self improvement, becoming a better leader, our finances, our success, etc. etc…that we never truly think of how to help others succeed. Yes, they are masters at giving lip service to doing it for the ‘little guy’, but in reality they are simply redistributing wealth from the ‘little guy’ into the hands of the elite.
Its interesting how they talk so convincingly about the power of the model to move someone from the left to the right of the cashflow quadrant, when the mere mathematics of the model only insure that those on the left will never be able to leave the left. And if they invest into ‘their’ business, like many of us did, they will even sink themselves further into the E and S quadrants due to the incurred debt. No matter how hard you try in a model with a mathematical failure rate of 95% plus, you will never have a ‘B’ type business.
Systems continue to teach ‘TRUE’ principles that will never apply to the business models in which they are implemented. So although it all sounds good in theory, and looks good on paper, the principles that are taught from stage simply do not apply.
[Editor’s Note: added blockquote for readability]
Webelieved, I vaguely remember that piece by Brady, any idea where I could get my hands on it? I actually have something I will be posting up here tomorrow, check back, it should be very revealing. thanks!
Brent~
Here is an aricle from back in Aug 2006 from Orrin: It will take you to his page and go to 2nd post. “Articles of Substance” Figures don’t lie ~ But liars sure figure. I think this is what you and webelieved are talking about? The complete article is in that post in a link.
http://orrinwoodward.blogharbor.com/blog/_archives/2006/8
Thank you Speak, I remember reading that rubbish when it was first released, only back in 06, I didn’t know it was rubbish..haha!
I love the explanation of why only 1 out of 100 is reaching Platinum, according to this article it is merely because the others haven’t arrived yet, and are still growing their businesses. The gall of stating redundancy in using statistics, that whole post is an obvious statement of reality without and admission of the mathematics that cause it.
True to the party line he goes on to imply that it was a lack of ‘showing the plan’ that leads to failure in MLM. Because obviously 66.66% of all those who show the plan 15 times a month for 12 months were qualifying as Platinums. How ludicrous can that be? So now from that post we know what it takes to get to the less than 1%, but there is no solution to the problem that only .05% of all MV distributors can even earn enough from the compensation plan to pay for their autoship on a monthly basis, and a much worse percentage who can pay for their own SA8 from their earnings.
I smell massive internal consumption coming from the Life model, what do you think? Who will the end users be? Call me cynical if you will but I think a product that can be taken, eaten, or used up would have more intrinsic value to the masses than a product that they listen to. I just cannot imagine anyone from my sphere of influence that would be willing to spend $50 a month to listen to a bunch of theory.
Brent~
Now you know WHY…no one questions the math…they pound this crap into the minds of the masses and people accept it because it came from the cult guru…they buy it without thinking…cuz.. your toooooo busy trying to get that ‘American Greed’.. I mean dream.
I agree 100%…at the end of the day…it still is an MLM with more than 95% destined to fail by desgin…they are claiming all kinds of ‘colleges’ (end users) are using their LLR but O won’t mention them he says; because of the ‘internet flamers’ But the real truth is FEAR and the Truth is it is an internal consumption, they know it and we do too…just as it has always been, but they get to claim the members as customers…so they can skirt the law.
This will be NO different than all the MLM hopping they have done to this point.. to ‘convince’ the masses it has been legit and they can get Financially FREE with the multitudes of ‘opprotunities’ they have been bench marked, studied..blah, blah, blah… for 2 decades. And what did you say their ‘play plan’ increased by a % or 2? It is glaringly obvious..nothing has changed and so therefore…if you continue to do what you have always done and continue to get the results you always have…IT would be Insanity!
They will continue to have the attrition rates…I believe …if not worse than ever before, just as you said who is going to continue to pay $50… and we all KNOW that is NOT what they are promoting (the minimum pkg, is only what they want to use to make it sound reasonable)…anyone with a half a brain can figure out they can get the books cheaper, if not free.. and is absolutly stupid to buy the same CD..of the seminar you just paid for an attended but works well in the indoctrination process, that is the only thing in my opinion they are used for besides raking in boat loads of CASH…but the ‘catch’ is they prey on peoples desires to ‘belong’ and get around ‘like minded people.’ Create that false-hyped positive enviroment..they everyone has been looking for their Whole lives.. to capture the uninformed.
If they ever come out with an income disclosure statement…which could never be trusted and doubt they will, they are NOT stupid..that would blow their cover..and have learned that lesson with MV.. because as you said there is no way to change the facts and numbers; unless you cheat, deceive, fix them and complicate them so people don’t see the glaring truth. But then those pesky little facts need their best diversion techniques..which as you have read how O can spin it… how ever it suits and blinds others. Keep your EYE on the Prize…not the facts…When you have a Dream..the facts don’t count! It works just look at us…. The 7 people out of 10,000- 20,000 people…. whatever the number of the day is..that are pilaging and stealing from the incomes of the masses!
I personally don’t think they will last; #1..Too much truth and facts for people now thanks to the internet..#2 They have created a slew of hypocritical lawsuits and their own bad reputation with their criminal behavior; #3 people are financially strapped and eventually figuring out they just can’t afford it…because it isn’t a necessity and will go to the library instead or look for other places to better themselves..#4 It has been said they are targeting a lot of young vulnerable college kids..that are already broke; hence, they will create a more rapid attrition rate and churning of replacement #5 With many people reporting to the proper authorities, eventually someone is going to listen and start regulating this farce and those speaking out will continue to educate those blinded.#6 Someone or someone’s will eventually sue them for their unfair business practices.
Just my thoughts and opinions…but to me it is inevitable, that they will and are self-destructing. They haven’t even begun to pay the price for their past destruction; yet.
@Joshua – Your comment was just approved from the moderation queue. I’m sure you’ll get a lot of response from the Ex-TEAM folk here.
Ex-TEAM members: In case you missed this comment, Joshua is a current TEAM member signed up in LIFE who has begun to question some things.
Hi, Joshua, a lot of us were higher up but have to keep identities hidden because we’re afraid of TEAM making a lawsuit against us. I never gained a single level so it doesn’t count for me, so that’s why you can see my real name. I really encourage you to read the posts here on Amthrax’s site, and I’ve also posted my personal experience (my own wordpress blog). I was in for seven months and not gained a single penny.
There were so many red flags for me, statements like if a person didnt’ want to be “in the business” they didn’t want to be successful. That was one major red flag there for me. Also, being told not to do outside research, because I was going to get all the information that I needed from TEAM. The fact that the signups are done speedily was another issue. Any business venture should be looked at with careful consideration. The constant “push” to purchase the latest tools, the 250-packs, whatever function it’s like “you don’t wanna miss it” type thing. That’s a major revenue for the TEAM/LIFE business right there. Also, if you look at the packs of the top 250 CDs you’ll find a lot of other CDs in your individual purchases that are identical, so basically you’re purchasing more than one or even two copies of the same information. The functions really should be optional, but the fact that you’re being strongly encouraged to go regardless of finances or home situations should raise a red flag. I know I’ve been really pressured to go to the St Louis convention back in 2009 despite my husband’s wishes. I’ve also witness first-hand a single mother being pressured to go to that same convention despite the fact that she needed to stay home with her young children. I remember whispering into her ear that she didn’t have to feel pressured, and that they’ll be other opportunities to go in the future. She turned around and said “Thank you”.
Joshua, there’s really so many things that didn’t sit right here. Please try to understand our viewpoints and what we went through. I haven’t not risen over the Distributor mark, nor have I had recruits despite me trying hard to bring people in. There’s so many more things that went on in the higher levels that are flat out unethical. I’m glad to have never gone through those levels, and I’m glad I only lost $6000 instead of the hundreds of thousands of dollars other people lost after years in the business.
The 2-5 year plan isn’t realistic, Joshua. Take a good hard look at what you’ve been told, and what you’ve seen accomplished. Be honest with yourself. The business itself is a really hard sell, Many people end up dropping out. Why? Either their credit maxed out (which happened in my case) or they were losing money, integrity, family, friends. These speeches you hear on CDs and on stage are really hyped-up, exciting-sounding – that’s really a ploy to keep you excited and to give you a renewed sense of (false) hope, especially if you’re failing.
Again, I just want to encourage to read through here, please feel free to ask any question. That’s what we’re here for.
@Joshua – Echoing @velizabethwhite’s comments, I would also pay attention to (1) how long you’ve been a part of TEAM/LIFE/MonaVie and (2) how much money you’ve made to date versus how much you’ve “invested” or spent. At the end of the day, this is a business.
@Joshua – I read this post on your website (found by Googling your name):
Quick question: If you added up all the money that you poured into Amway/Quixtar/MonaVie/TEAM/LIFE, how much further along would you be on paying off all of your debts?
Joshua~
I believe you are on the right track and You have begun the process of questioning (critically thinking) probably because something..’just doesn’t add up or doesn’t feel right.” That is exactly what we want you to do,.. read and think for yourself! I believe and it has been explained just about in every post on here, why we haven’t come on with our names but if you are able to discern truth, especially if you are a Christian as you say…there is no need for names, but if you want to know of the ‘high levels’ that left..there is a list of just some of the leaders in many posts. If there is a question or questions that you would want to ask that would help you..feel free.
You should be able to read the content and figure out that most people wouldn’t have this information if they hadn’t been ‘higher levels’, and I understand your point, but it will not change the facts, nor our experiences. We aren’t on here as ‘haters’ trying to convince you of something because we are disgruntle. This is the thing, we weren’t willing to give our names just as velizabethwhite explained due to the lawsuits and the knowledge that we have of how the PC operates and what lenghts they will go to, including suing.. to silence the ‘critics.’
So, Joshua…Did you just come here to try and get the names of those on here and if so why would that be? Because to me it is apparent now, thanks to Amthrax…you have been around a LONG time and it appears your main point in your post was the question about how you can believe us, if we don’t give our names.
It sounds like you have always been and are ‘sold’ on the Amway/Team/MV/LieF program. If you haven’t made money in all these years and to only by your own words had to stop and start because of it keeps creating debt or interferring with you paying your debt off..then it is clearly common sense and I believe you have all the answers you need.
Good luck to ya Joshua…
Joshua, since my comment on your blog is in an approval cue, and may never see the light of day, I thought I would respond to you here as well. I quote you,
Sounds like a lot of cdspeak to me Joshua, I understand how you can be excited, and how you can feel like you are learning and improving, but the bottom line is this. Every true principle, quote, story, lesson and experience taught is negated by the fact that they are merely the skin of a lie. You see, the model is a lie wrapped in a whole bunch of truths to disguise it, for deception purposes.
No amount of rhetoric, cdspeak, or lingo can make the untrue become true, period! I hate to burst your perfect little bubble, but the new comp plan is more of the same ol. If you care to discuss it further, I am willing to help you understand, but understand, this is the no rhetoric zone.
[Editor’s note: Added blockquote for readability.]
velizabethwhite – I have been in and out of the business since 2004. Never completely out just took a lot of breaks. I have spent a good amount of money with the TEAM but have changed for the better because of it so in the end even if I don’t continue to pursue it I will not regret my time. I also know every penny was spent by my own free will, I do not blame the business for raking up some credit card debt. I have never had a second team so I have never made any significant money. I can not say that is the businesses fault either because I have never personally gone go-getter, I have mostly hung around because of what it has done for me and the association. I always hope I can make some money to show friends and family it is worth trying out so they can be exposed to some of the info through the TEAM.
Speak Your Truth – I have been in for a long time and have enjoyed it even though I havent made any money. As I said I did freely chose to give my money and I never even went go-getter in those many years. I am not trying to get any names trust me, I just don’t understand what kind of lawsuit could be filed for speaking your experience, and as I understand he hasnt had a lot of luck in his lawsuits anyways. I just want some truth from past leaders that know. I just recently found the info on Cullen, Huber, and Darkangelo’s Bankruptcy. And since being back have realized that Robert Dickie and everyone of the leaders at his church that used to be involved in team are no longer involved (Zimmerman, Freeze, Abraham). The others I can think of that disappeared are Foos, Grainger, Reed…. well that’s a fairly long list to go through, I also know a handfull of others that were not quite as high of ranks but still high enough to where they should have been making some money and left. Recently I have seen others go that know Orrin very well that quit. Just questioning some things and looking for some answers, hoping I can get some from someone who does not feel the need to hide their identity. But I do understand the reasoning behind it, just think it would help out a lot more people if some past leaders spoke up.
brent – I think I went through most of what you cover already. I am a christian now, and I was brought there through the team. That is a fact to me, and it is a very important one in my life. If everything on the business side of the system was a lie I still gained the most important thing in my life from it, God uses many different things to bring people to him. People are not perfect with so many people on the team you are bound to get a handful of people that lack integrity. I mostly just wonder if it goes straight up through all the leaders, people who have never been on the team can say whatever they want but someone who has been there and quit for whatever reason holds more weight to me than someone that has never been involved. I realize you are not completely ignorant of it all but someone who was there knows for sure. I have been in long enough to know the leaders that have disappeared so I will pursue some answers from them until I get what I need to make.
People I realize if I stay in odds are I don’t make it, and everyone I get in odds are they don’t make it. But it’s like that in everything you can do that would give you a similar lifestyle I guess. Athletes, singers, actors……… the odds to ever make it in those are not so good either people pursue those for the same reason they pursue MLM even though the odds are against them. If that’s a whole lotta team speak then so be it, it’s true.
Sorry if I’m all over the place, just have a lot running through my head.
as far as my site that i made a post to about the team that was prior to finding out some more info on all of this. it was from a while ago and i have not been back on my site since i posted that. its just something i have been messing around with lately (making sites, affiliate marketing) I will probably go back and take it down until I make a disicion on all of this i suppose.
And I dont pass judgement on anyone who was in and left. I would not say that you just didnt do what it takes, i wouldnt say you are a quitter, i wouldnt say you are a liar. for me personally i know its not working, but i also know i dont do anything to make it work, like showing plans much at all.
webelieve – as i said i understand why you may hide identities, and you are correct i hide nothing because i have nothing to hide. I have nothing bad to say about anyone higher up on the team because I don’t know them. I have been off Cd’s and meetings at many different times. including for the last 6-7. As I said I realize that there is probably some people without integrity in the TEAM. There is people who lack integrity everywhere, church, government, business and odds are there are people who lack integrity here to, not saying its you just like to know facts that’s all. I’m early on my journey searching.
And for everyone on here who feels the need to lash out at TEAM members present or past with rude comments about being brainwashed or as brent so kindly put it teamspeak. this will not help anyone change their mind so if your intentions are to truly save people from TEAM don’t attack them like this, just a thought.
Joshua, I understand your thought process on comparing the ‘rockstar’ lifestyle available with MLM to that of many higher profile personas. I do however wish to help you understand exactly what that statement is incorrect.
If I want to make it in the NFL, I can do so based on my work ethic, my talent, and my physical abilities. The only limitations I have are those that are imposed either by genetics, my lack of natural ability, or my lack of work ethic.
To have that kind of lifestyle in MLM is quite a different scenario. Understand Joshua, that myself and others on this blog have had HUGE groups in MLM. Many of us have earned money that only the top 5% can access, so we are talking from experience not theory.
If you want to succeed in MLM, you will have mathematics working against you, mathematics that you are subject to whether you choose to be or not. It is almost as inevitable as the law of gravity, if you jump off a bridge, you will fall. If you choose to pursue your ‘rock-star’ lifestyle you may succeed, but I can guarantee you that 95% plus of those business partners you have will go deeper and deeper into debt as a result of the compensation mathematics. Success here is not based on your ability, talent or work ethic as much as timing, positioning, and being a chosen one who will benefit from the plan.
Trust me, I have been at the very top of companies, and the players are hand-picked prior to the companies launch. MLM is a full-on redistribution of money from the masses to the elite, and if you are not an insider, I can guarantee you a 99.9% failure rate every time.
Most people are not astute enough to understand the difference between statistics and mathematics. Professional athletes and famous people are subject to statistics but not mathematics, your success is directly tied to a mathematic formula.
I am not attacking you one bit, I only hope you realize what you are getting into, and if you are ok making money as your partners lose money, good luck!
Maybe so, but I highly doubt it. Besides, anything you learned from TEAM you could have learned for free at the library, or as unthinkable as it may be to a TEAMer, while actually getting PAID to work at a sales job.
Here’s the rub – it wouldn’t matter even if you had made a Herculean effort because you still would have lost money and sold your soul in the process by becoming a prostitute for a fraudulent fruit juice/sales tools scam. Be thankful that your victims to date only number in the dozens or so instead of the thousands, had you tried to make a “real effort”.
But you didn’t, so you can’t. By your own tacit admission, your friends and family have no reason to conclude anything other than that what you are pushing is utterly worthless.
I can understand why self-interested parties like the PC members and Troy Dooly would bristle so at the idea of people posting anonymously, but if someone puts a fact on the table that you can verify for yourself, the source of the fact simply doesn’t matter. The most urgent priority here is putting facts on the table (and a lot of venting/healing of course). It is preferable that those facts continue to surface regardless of whether they come from sources who remain anonymous, and who do so for obvious reasons; i.e., the other side fights mean and dirty – the repercussions would be slander, rabid persecution, and frivolous lawsuits. It’s all they have on their side because they can’t fight the facts. Truth and candor are their biggest enemies. I watched them pull their bully act often on blogs like this a few years back, but now the tables have turned. They don’t own the dialog on the internet anymore – WE DO! That’s why they resort to underhanded tactics like Google bombing and putting up skeleton websites in an attempt to bury sites like this in the search rankings. They don’t want any dissenting opinions to be heard and they don’t want to engage in open dialog with the other side. They are useless and they have already lost the war for hearts and minds. It’s over.
I wouldn’t be at all happy about being introduced to God by a bunch of devils. I suggest you start all over again from the beginning, and this time following the precepts of the Bible instead of those greasy fork-tongued scam artists.
That, IMO, is a very, very big problem Joshua. You are viewing the world through a very dirty and distorted lens. What you describe, as others here will attest, is a hallmark sign of cult indoctrination. Hopefully spending a little time here will help you to see clearly again.
How, in good conscience, could you possibly ever pitch that as an “opportunity” to your friends and family? “Sign up…odds are worse than 1 in 100 that you’ll do anything but lose money”. Is making that pitch a scenario you really want to face every day? In what warped parallel universe would that scenario be better than working at an honest job and bringing home an honest paycheck?
Bad analogy. Playing sports is FUN. Singing and acting are FUN. Signing up friends and family to sell their souls in a snakeoil fruit juice/sales tools pyramid scam in which none of you will ever succeed – NOT fun! And if you spend 5 years playing sports, singing, or acting you WILL acquire skills and knowledge that FAR exceeds anything that can be learned at the Monavie/TEAM/LIEf clown academy.
I can’t apologize if my tone strikes you as blunt Joshua. I’m the guy who spares the candy coating. But I do hope you wake up and stop being part of the problem. Lift yourself above this BS and think beyond yourself (and the PC) — do something worthwhile for society, please.
[Editor’s note: added blockquotes]
Vogel – I do agree with a handful of points you make but throughout your comments you are usually fairly rude, or “blunt” as you would say. Questioning the fact that I am a better person now than when I got into the team does not make me take into consideration much of anything you say, as yo said, “Maybe so, but I highly doubt it.” If you plan on doing good with your posts and helping “save” people from TEAM then it might help not to try and offend them. And as far as the christian thing goes even if they all are revealed as liars that is fine, God used it to turn me and others I know into Christians. I do have a strong faith based on the bible thank you very much. (but don’t worry I’m not easily offended, I know what I am and who I am, and I am comfortable with that)
There are people on here that have nothing good to say about the TEAM and there are the TEAMsters that have nothing bad to say. But I do know a good amount of people that have been in the team for quite a while that say it had positive impact in their lives, and they say this even after being off system for a while. This is not unthinkable for people to change for the better with the books that are passed down on system. (And yes I realize these are available at the library but they were brought to my attention through the team).
I thank the rest of you for your comments and probably will be back from time to time to read the interesting stuff that is posted. I have tried to make contact with some people that have been involved and left and am waiting to see if I get any responses so thanx again.
One last thing, remember that these people are sinners no different from you and me. If all this is true they may have started just like you and me though. Money does funny things to people, or not so funny things. Not saying this is the case but it could be. Their sins are no worse than ours.
@Finally
When you talk about them taking turbo 25’s profit sharing checks. Well yes they did. They took ours. Flat out told by our upline that our profit sharing was going to help pay for the lawsuits. We went down to a couple hundred bucks and then nothing!!!! WhooHoo!! Fired Up!!. Not to mention it took us forever to finally qualify for it.
More like our profit sharing went to the profit hoarder himself.
So glad to be out!
Josh, There is nothing wrong with the books or learning or becoming a Christian and improving our lives. The problem is how Orrin manipulates the followers with these things to create wealth for himself and a few select others. I was a go-getter many times and spent $30K on this business in 2 years. My biggest regret is the broken relationships with my friends and family because I was blind to the lies that I believed. If you have been in since the Team of Destiny days you know exactly what I am talking about. If you don’t, then you are lying to yourself.
The one single thing I learned from my experience with Team is that I will never be scammed by any MLM ever again and I will do everything in my power to help people I know who are contacted by anyone connected to Orrin Woodward.
There is a reason that the leaders you named left Team and why they don’t come here and state their name. They are ashamed of the lies they spread because they were conned too. I hope you find what you are looking for and take the high road. You can find phone numbers for the “triple 100” leaders that left the team. Call them along with Pastor Dickie if you want the truth.
Joshua~
None of us think the information is ‘bad’ all by itself, (most of those authors of the books have nothing to do with MLM’s nor the PC) and as many of us have said it is how they ‘use’ that information for their ill-gotten gains is what makes it so damaging. If you are truly on a quest to find the truth…I believe you will find it because those who seek…find. It is going to require you to be blunt and ask some hard questions of your upline…and trust us…how your upline responds or not at all…will give you a good indication to the real truth. They will be evasive and probably avoid or will use the standard (handling objections) answers…this would be a sign. If they have nothing to hide, wouldn’t they honestly answer your questions?
We already know, it is hard to believe for you or anyone else; what we say is truth… because what you see in the environment is in direct conflict with the stories and information on here. It creates an internal battle.
This is where you will need to watch carefully and ask the questions. Their tactics are very subtle and think about it, they are not going to tell you what they did to steal, our teams and money, or anything else we say. How long would you stay if they answered that honestly? Remember they have a monetary gain and we don’t.
There is a few things that indicate to me that you aren’t fully ready to admit to yourself these truths and believe us we know the battle of facing the truth.
1) You have been in since TOD days and followed all the way to MV, therefore, you already know what happened in the registration, do you not? Read the article in the archives on here; “What Really Happened in the Six Months between Amway/Quixtar and MV”…May 15, 2011.
2) You have already admitted you know the majority 99% who are guaranteed losses. That math has been ‘proven’ over n over. There is no argument. I don’t think you have really let this sink in nor do you realize the ramifications this causes on people’s lives. Don’t 100% of the people get in to make money? That IS how it is sold to them, correct? So every single person has been mislead; to believe they will make money, when they are NOT going to. Do you not see this as lying to people? Regardless, of how you say it has helped ‘better you,’ that is after the fact they have already been deceived.
That is the ‘bait and switch’. They know once they have you, they have got to get you to believe all those other things…like they are noble…making a difference..you are doing it for ‘the’ ‘team’..It is no longer your goals..If you are in it for the money then you are greedy, it is about the ‘cause’… etc..Why does Orrin switch this? Do you see the double messages; they are there by the thousands…you just need to recognize them.
Is this what you see in the real world? If the business is as good and they are as honest they say…then why do they have to deceive people? THINK. We have been around for years up close and personal and know their objectives and everything they do is done intentionally to keep you there. They need people to believe all those lies to get more people to buy system to maintain their lifestyles. They have 7 PC out of what 10,000-20,000; whatever they told you was at the last major? Only 7….How can anyone with a clear conscience tell everyone they STP to that they will get financially free with those odds or all the other lies about passive, b-type..etc..etc.? Read the contract and P&P, how can anyone not see this?
I hope you read the rest of this site and ask especially yourself and your upline those hard questions. Then ask yourself are they ‘using’ the handling objections on you? Why do you think they have that CD? Why do you think they spend so much time…trying to drown out this website and others?
One last thing…we are here to help anyone, but it is like an alcoholic/drug addict…they have to want the help…so we are not naïve and also know and believe that not everyone wants the help…some regardless of the glaring facts… want to believe what they have been fed.
Read all the ‘defenders/teamers’ comments…see if you don’t see the common identical language they all use… the same rhetoric…the same defenses… that you hear at every seminar and on the handling objections CD. Why do they all say the same things, because they have been programmed to say those auto responses? Is this how people do business… anywhere… in the real world…unless you watch American Greed…or read up on cults… You don’t find these business practices used by honest people. Think and use common sense. Then read the comments from those outside that this site has helped and ask, how did they see right through this?
Good luck, in your quest for the truth, I sincerely mean that…we have nothing monetary to gain or otherwise, whether you do or don’t believe a word we say. But this we do know, when you find the truth… it will set you free
Joshua, to respond to your question, I was pressured by my upline with her slick words to stay in. There were times when I showed her my credit card statements and in tears and she just kept “encouraging” me to stay in, and that in order for me to be successful, I needed to be in debt. Right at the time that I quit TEAM I was under so much pressure that I was throwing up. I also lost contact with every TEAM member then as well. They saw how hard I worked to get people underneath me. They didn’t take any heart at all.
*sigh*
Just my experiences and opinions with TEAM.
Speak….wow! Incredible heart-felt post. Thanks!
Honestly Joshua, I wasn’t saying it to offend you. It’s just that when I hear someone saying that TEAM made them a better person, I immediately think (a) they are probably mistaken and (b) they are simply rationalizing to avoid acknowledging that “good” people don’t sell snakeoil pyramid schemes to friends and family. I don’t get the impression that you’re a bad person, but I can’t buy the idea that TEAM made you a better person, unless of course you meant in the sense that adverse experiences help make us stronger and wiser; I think that applies to a lot of the people here who came to realize that what they were doing was wrong on many levels. On the other hand, if someone claims that TEAM made them better because it taught them about leadership or how to run a business, then I call BS. The people in TEAM are clearly unqualified to teach these subjects. If you learned a few pearls of wisdom along the way, then I would argue that you could have learned the same things for free by visiting your library, without having to be an accomplice to a snakeoil pyramid scheme that ruins lives far more often than it improves them.
As for TEAM being an impetus to reinforce Christianity, I would argue that real faith cannot be built on lies, deception, and greed, which are the values I see most often on display in the TEAM organization. There are many far, far better means to build faith than participating and supporting a corrupt scam. The people I see pushing this scam the hardest are the antithesis of good Christians. They lie, they steal, they manipulate, and they abuse. I hope you come to this realization someday. Give this some serious thought: when you see these arrogant liars on stage espousing their greedy money-worshipping doctrine, does that remind you of anything Jesus stood for? It makes me think of Matthew 21:12. Good luck bro.
Webelieved~
You are right…and out of those 7…really 6…Hammiltons were never apart of the original organization.. and well 5 really because one got special deals…well who knows maybe they all did?
I was just using the most recent major, to show the obvious and that isn’t even accurate, the odds are a whole lot worse because we know there is a big percentage that don’t even go to the majors and those numbers are probably inflated but….if the true numbers were revealed..of those who quit and were churned through this illusion from hell…it would definitely be a whole lot grimmer. I shutter to think of how many hundreds of thousands if not millions of lives that have been left in the wake of destruction and devastation because they fell for the fairytale…I take that back fairytales usually end well…the illusion from hell is way more accurate. And if you take the supposed millions of distributors in MV…as my favorite video states..you are better off buying a lottery ticket…buddy!
Frequent posters keep up the good work. You ARE making a huge difference!! I love showing the plan now (telling them about this site)!
God Bless!
Hey “loser critics”,
I think you just need to get fired up by this letter. I found it while browsing through my email written by someone still in Team. Notice any fun li’l nuggets?! (I copied it verbatim)
Sound familiar?!?!
hahaha…who is the author?
mattjer/22~
Thanks a bunch for the laughs, but it is too sad how deeply they get people to ‘believe’ in the false hope.
This is quite the gem;
And gotta love this one..
And my favorite and didn’t know whether to laugh or cry;
OMG!
“…….you need to be a robot by doing what the TEAM tells us to do…….”
It’s that infamous robotic voice coming back to haunt us ALL!!!!
\
“do-everything-you-are-told-to-do-with-the-TEAM.”
“Hey-guys-Dream-BIG-or-go-home.”
“BIG-dreams-produce-BIG-results.”
yeah….and they point the fingers in everyone else’s direction in life who supposedly isn’t playin’ with a full deck….
@mattjer22 – a demon named TEAM is the real author of that crazy email! 😉 (don’t worry, woodward, buddy, that’s only my opinion) :-p
na, the email was written by someone in my downline, essentially a nobody…yet. He’s actually being courted by some higher ups now. Got some time with Orrin a few weeks ago when Orrin came to town. I think they are digging their hooks in deep to keep him from jumping ship.
I guess I just lost “faith” in my dreams. You know, it’s crazy to go back over an email like this and see it with the fog removed. While in the middle of my time in the biz, I’m like “yeah, yeah…it’s great to have someone like this in my team…” but the groupthink is so obvious now it’s pretty funny (and not ha-ha funny). “Robot”?! I mean, can’t you see it?!
Glad I lost “faith”…at least in this case…
Wow, what an interesting blog! I used to avoid all these blogs because the writers were just trying to make money elsewhere, and every time we clicked on one they made money! That is what I was told anyway. Thankfully, our eyes opened a little! My husband and I joined team a couple of years ago. What an amazing opportunity. Or so we thought. I had been involved with other MLM’s before but it was a little different. Melaleuca was one, though I didn’t build it like TEAM, I did it from my computer actually. My main focus was extra income, which I succeeded in. I was not trying to bring my husband home from work or anything. I have also done several other little businesses like that, the jewelery and such. Again, just for some extra cash. Get bored with one, move on to the next sort of thing. Anyway, this “plan” got shown to us and weirdly my husband was interested (which is not like him) so I got all “FIRED UP”! We built the business for awhile, hit a couple levels, which I would like to say was all us, but really it was our up line purchasing product in our name because they needed pins in there business for there business to succeed. Immediately that should have been a red flag for us to stop, but we kept going! But then we had to walk across stage as a bronze, when we really were not a bronze…. but we were told it was the right thing to do to “FIRE UP” our team! So…. we did it. (not proud!)How many other people are doing that? Is it a a nasty cycle?? Now we are telling people we are bronze. So I say ” I am not comfortable telling people we are bronze” then I am told, ” then just point to the income disclosure sheet.” (from 2009 I might add) Which at the time for whatever reason it didn’t cross my mind to think of how many other people were being told to do the same thing.Anyway many months later things just kept happening. We saw friends just thinking that some leaders were so awesome, and had great results when we knew the truth. We saw things change, numbers not add up, lots of lying and portraying different images. At this point We stayed in the biz but weren’t really doing much. My husband kept saying, ” we will just do it the moral way,” but we began realizing that was impossible. By this point we could not at all edify upline, which was making this very difficult. We had no motivation to hit goals, to go hang out with them. But we still hung in there. Always hearing the same thoughts “There is nothing else, we can’t live the life we always wanted if we don’t do this.” I felt bad for my husband because “Most men lead lives of quiet desperation.” and blah blah blah! But recently we started noticing more than just the income part of it. People we knew were being told to to make a major life decision by there upline. I shouldn’t say decision because they weren’t actually being told to choose anything, just being told what they needed to do to make things right by “team”.Unfortunately many of them did, without a single question being asked. And when questions were asked, it was one sided. “Seek first to understand, and then to be understood” This quote they speak of often, I think they forgot the first part. I thought everyone in TEAM was training to be Leaders, but I see a bunch of followers. Now I know we are all just blinded and are not ready to see until God opens our eyes. I started saying this as our TEAM journey was ending to people, maybe it was me still in denial of it all……, ” Team was great to me and my family despite all the money we spent, and time away because I learned valuable lessons, strengthened relationships and most important, I now except Jesus as my Lord and Savior! Without Team, I wouldn’t have any of that!” But now my story changes a little bit, I am still not angry with Team, but I now know that none of that happened because of Team, it happened because it is all Gods plan! God had a place for me on Team for a reason and He has showed me many of those reasons. So, I can’t be angry. I do want to tell everyone about it but we have chosen to sit back and when they are ready, in Gods time, they will come to seek understanding. It is obvious that most do not care when you leave, I think because they are scared of the truth. I feel as though people on here that are not sure yet, are seeking info because they want to know. So I will say this,Do not edify anyone on TEAM unless you know 100% of what they are telling you to say is real. I edified someone who was not my upline but a “leader” who turned out to be something that…. well I will not go into detail. I didn’t even know this man, but I was told to say all these wonderful things about him and I am now disgusted! I just urge you, think twice.
Be careful,
Another interesting story. Unfortunately many who have crossed paths with Team / Life, have been deceived. You can wrap a hundred truths around a lie, and at its core it is still a lie. Now I do not question your personal testimony of Jesus Christ, but I highly doubt that testimony was inspired by Team, (See Matthew 15:8, Isiah 29:13).
No matter how it is painted, the so called ‘opportunity’ is a plain display of wolves in sheep’s clothing, (see Matthew 7:15).
Webelieved ~ No, I do not know anything about them offering cash, though that is very interesting and really would not surprise me. Nothing surprises me anymore with the team. As for as moving legs and people, I have recently heard of this happening to an ex team member who was not on my team or in my upline but now that we are not “crosslining” we got to talking and found all this out. It is very interesting because the odds on you being on that same team are slim which means that this was happening all over the place. My source was RT and speaking all over the place at one point, till the contracts changed. I found all this out though after we made the decision to be done with team for good. We were not leaders at all in the business, never claimed to be though people would edify us as though we were when we accomplished nothing. Which always left me feeling a little sick. As far as the edification, that is what I am talking about. I understand the reasoning for not talking about it, even though I want to shout it from my roof top. But because of the innocent I agree it is best. And thanks for your comments and I am sorry about the damage that Team caused for you and your family. I was not involved long and so not much time was invested so I am not hurt by this much, more humiliated than anything. I feel bad for people we brought into the business and wish we could tell them but because of certain reasons we have decided to keep quiet mouths for now. I just hope the truth all comes out, and soon!
Thruthseeker~ Thanks for your comments as well! Oh, I am well aware now that Team really had nothing to do with that. Perhaps you over read that part.
(but I now know that none of that happened because of Team, it happened because it is all Gods plan! )
Those verses are perfect when thinking of team. Especially Isaiah 29:13! Thanks for sharing.
I really don’t understand all this edification nonsense. This is supposed to be a business, correct? If my boss asked me to follow reasonable orders, I would follow them. But if he demanded that I “edify” him, I’d tell him where he can stick that request, particularly if I wasn’t getting a regular paycheck, as is the case for almost everybody in TEAM/LIEf/Monavie.
My advice would be that if a business mentions “edification”, run fast and far.
One should do their worshiping at church or in the privacy of their own home; not in their place of business.
I agree with you Vogel, if a business teaches you to edify everyone, run!
In my opinion, edification is used on Team to control and manipulate people. They say it is a biblical and teach you to only speak highly of everyone, no negative. Especially in public. Puke upline, never downline. It is a way of idolizing the leaders and putting them in a authority postition over the followers. It is also a way of manipulating the environment to produce a fake happy happy feeling which is so different then the outside real world. It sucks you in. It makes you feel good and strokes followers egos and is reciprocated. If you talk nicely about the Speaker they are taught to do it back to you, in front of your prospect. This way they think you are all that and a bag of chips, even if you are a couch potato and still making 5 bucks a month after 5 years of attending Tuesdays! If a prospect knew the negative truth they would think twice about being involved. It is a way to hide information and a lot of cults do this. Negative is not allowed even if it is the truth. I guarantee you there is a lot of negative talk going on behind the scenes in this group at the top, but the followers better toll the line.
All my opinions and experiences with Team, and Orrin Woodward and Co.
About 5 months ago, I went to my friends apartment to attend my first TEAM/LIFE meeting. I was looking for anything to build on, to gain more money and a new life, because living in a one bedroom apartment with 1300 a month is ridiculous. I walked in the door, and sat down for the meeting. Within an hour I had signed up and committed to being a part of TEAM/LIFE. I was so excited. Not to mention, the girl that was presenting, I later fell in love with.
We attended seminars at my house, at event centers etc. I was so drawn by the promises and faith based business. However after some time I started realizing how fake and materialistic most of these TEAM/LIFE members were. They repeated themselves constantly and talked about “their dreams”, which I can surely say without question, that dreams filled with money and materials are not dreams of God.
My girl was adamant about team being #1 in her life, and that her dreams mattered more than anything. I was #2. We attended a seminar one night, and the second half cost another $35 to attend, so I was about to leave and we talked before i went, and she stated that right now TEAM/LIFE was her #1 priority. Of course, when you love someone, it would hurt that a business comes before your love. Well, needless to say, she left me later that night over the phone. It broke my heart. But, she still hung around for another week and a half, and you could see it in her eyes. She was trying to figure out if our love or team was more important. She ended up choosing TEAM.
A week later she came to my house and told me she was pregnant with our child, and I haven’t heard from her since. It’s been 3 months, and I’ve tried going to her dads to talk to her, I’ve even taken $400 to her to help her with the baby. It’s hard not hearing from someone you love, but it’s harder to see them destroy God’s love because of a business, that in itself is fraudulently full of promises.
This TEAM/LIFE business, it speaks of knowing God and saving marriages and relationships. It tells you to create dreams, based off of things God would never consider holy and loving. Lamborghini’s and houses that are big enough for 10 families, are not gifts of God. They are things that will not matter when zombies are walking down the street, or nuclear bombs are going off 50 miles away. The only things that matter in this world is loving God, and loving each other.
I know that I’m speaking from a months worth of TEAM/LIFE experience, and I know that my broken heart influences a lot of what I feel about TEAM/LIFE. However, when you look at the outcome of anything that you do in life, anything at all, is it good or is it evil. God or not, the outcome must be good, for everyone. Scamming people to join a business so that you may profit from them and anyone else that joins; is the same as denying a lady a home loan to save her house, so that you can get a promotion. You ever seen drag me to hell? That girl was of a good heart, but she made a horrible decision, and screwed someone else over to get her place in life. Let’s just say she didn’t make it to heaven.
TEAM/LIFE maybe inspirational, which I highly agree that it is very inspirational, but the overall outcome of what you must do to get to the top… It makes me want to vomit. It spits all over the values that it says they built there business off of. It spits all over everything God has ever taught us, and if you don’t believe in our savior and love, then look into your heart and truly determine if what you are doing is really benefiting others, or just taking there money, while still spending yours.
TEAM/LIFE is the reason my girl isn’t with me now, and the reason why my baby is probably going to grow up without both parents. Having to go between homes, and love, and faiths. Our baby will grow up knowing that its family didn’t care about it, because TEAM/LIFE came first. I met you at the seminar Chris Brady, and I even told my friend that your suit and hair do, along with your character, made you look like the devil himself. You said something that made my girl chose money over love. For that, I pray to God everyday that you will fall, and live for eternity in your own hell. I never have wished anything like this upon anyone, but these lies and deceptions have taken away everything that really matters to anyone. TEAM/LIFE must be stopped before they corrupt and deceive anyone else. They are not of God as they claim, because God isn’t in the business of having to talk you into something over and over to believe in it.
Matthew 6:24
“No one can serve two masters. Either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and Money.”
How can you boast a business on faith, when that same faith says you’re a liar. Now TEAM/LIFE are hypocrites and con artists, just off of one verse.
I hope my story helps others to realize that this business, is just another business, in the business, of getting into your business. End of story.
God is Love~
You story is very heart breaking. I am sorry to hear you have had this experience and it has robbed you of a full future with your child. Unfortunately and sadly we have heard this way too many times where one of the people ‘choose’ the ‘business’ over the relationship. Honestly it makes me angry. It is an outrage, but if you told someone in the team this story they would blame you somehow (cult) because they are never a part of the damage. You have found out first had sadly, how they convince others that nothing is more important than the business.
It would be your fault because they believe the end justifies their means. They don’t care it has ripped your life and cheated your child of a full time dad. They will shout they have helped ‘your girl’ think right, and changed her life in all 8 F’s… give the credit to the LIEf program. The process of changing a person (thought reform) is very effective and powerful as your story shows. Anyone with critical thinking would know what is best for their child it isn’t a business and the worst part it is a scam and the chances of her ever getting her goals and dreams or to support her child would be slim to none! It will take away from the needs of the child. Take it from someone who lost over well over a decade of sacrificed time away from our growing up children.
As painful as this must be for you… I thank you for sharing your truth. There is no doubt others will be helped and least in the sense they are not alone and have experienced what you have. This should slap the LIE..f..ERS in the face but they will deny and blame.
It makes my stomach turn how they claim this helps others and they deliberately ignore and deny such pain and suffering they cause other people all for the almighty buck…their real idol. I love the bible verse you used and to everyone else it is crystal clear…
They are now on a mission with a postive progaganda campaign to hide the truth on Amthrax (they already tried the negative one and were getting sued over it; Amway) their propaganda video’s that they are asking people to tell how it has changed their lifes. This is no different then they expect and what every single speaker does. They give ALL the credit for Everything Good Thing in their Lives to the ‘system’. and Orrin. Now they are using all the other media sources to do the same thing. As a speaker on many stages, I know this to be and if they don’t think you are doing what they expect, you won’t speak.
The end does not justify the means, you cannot destroy people and justify it by saying but look at these people we did help. That is the thinking of other cult guru’s.
Bernie Madoff..justified it..he said he helped the wealthy make more money. But stole from others to give to those he says he helped and in the process ripped their lives to shreds, including his own sons and wife and his one son commited suicide because of his actions. There is no justifing, period.
How does Orrin overlook the damage to tens of thousands and ‘justify’ it with ‘we lead people to Christ?’ Very twisted. sick and evil actions, in my opinion. What good is it if you gain the world and lose your soul?
What they don’t tell people is they won’t allow you to give credit to anything else…or you won’t speak.
Hopefully, there will come a day where your girl will realize the truth and recognize there isn’t a business on the planet worth chosing over the time the child could have with both loving parents and a full time dad. I do wish you the best and I wish there was more we could do to help. You will be in my prayers.
This commenter requested that her comments be removed from this site.
Mesha,
I played mental ping pong for years so I understand exactly where you are at. Trust me, the sooner you can cut the ties, the sooner you can put it all behind you and move on with your ‘real’ life.
I had the same situation to face after 13 years of being intimate friends with our team and upline. Those who were real friends are still real friends, those who were not real friends won’t even have lunch with me. One gentleman in particular who I made hundreds of thousands of dollars wouldn’t even let me enter his home to visit with him.
Let it go before it consumes you.
Mesha, don’t beat yourself up for not taking the advice given to you here back in October by people you don’t know.
“This said friend has a pretty good head on their shoulders and I trust them but I am pretty strapped on funds right now.”
That is the way most of us were introduced to the business, thru a trusted friend, but that friend has been deceived too. You will be doing your friend a favor by quitting. If she has a conscience she is having the same conflicts in her heart that you are dealing with.
Trust me, you are not alone…we understand what you are going thru.
By the way Mesha, you can read your original comments and the advice given to you here.
“What We’ve Learned From The Life Team Major Function”
Mesha says-
“It also doesnt help I have no one to talk to about this either that would understand….”
Sure you do, Mesha. Any one of us can help.
@Mesha – TEAM is not the sole source where someone can gain his or her dreams or discover his or her purpose. There are over 300 million people living in the United States (over 500 million in all of North America). There are perhaps 15K members in TEAM today. If you listen to the way the TEAM leaders speak, you might think that the rest of the 299,985,000 don’t have dreams or goals.
You think they might be wrong in this case?
Walk away from TEAM. Find your dreams and achieve your goals outside of TEAM. If you crave books on self-improvement, history or finances, get them at the library for free.
Mesha- We ALL have been where you are at. It is hard mentally to see through the fog when this first happens. You are feeling so bad because you have taken on Teams false teachings that you can’t contribute to the world outside of team.That my friend is a LIE from the pit of hell! Please do yourself a favor and take a few weeks off of meetings, cds, books etc and let yourself rest and think. It will help clear out the crap.
You have a much better chance getting your dreams and keeping them and making a positive difference in the real world.
Mesha when you are ready we will still be here. I would recommend you also get some feedback from non team family and close friends you trusted before the group. Ask them what they think. I bet they have noticed a change in you that they may not like. If you can take it ask them and really listen to what they say. They probably miss you very much. It may be hard and seem awkward at first but try to go have fun with your friends and do the things you did before the group. God designed us to have fun too! That is one thing I lost for a while from being involved in Team, I became too serious, too goal oriented.
I also would recommend you stay away from people involved in the group for a while. I am glad you are taking time off. You may have weird feelings of guilt, watching a movie, missing tues. night. It is ok and it will get better. Please let us know how it is going.
Mesha I also want you to know a lot of your core beliefs about yourself and the world have been changed by the group. It is called indoctrination and it makes you confused. It is hard to see the truth because you have seen a made up world, set up for you. They have given you cds to fit your situation, they have been so positive and kind and offered instant friendship. Yet ask yourself is that real? Does this happen in real life? There are negative things that happen in life, and if we dont deal with them now they will still be there later. Friendships are developed over time and trust is earned not given like it is on Team. They are hiding all the negative real life stuff behind the scenes like leaders that don’t like each other, all the people that quit because Orrin screwed them over, that there used to be 20,000 people going to majors. That is what we were taught to do, show no negative, only talk positive. If you didn’t your upline may give you the book Attitude is Everything. No negative downline. Edify. We were taught to create this happy happy environment that is manipulating people. Do you know most of the people at the opens have been involved with team for years, coming to tues. every week for years and are still not making a profit? but they sit and clap and laugh and hope their ship will come in when they are good enough, when they have read and listened to enough, when they are good enough leaders. The environment is fake, most of the friendships are fake. Many if not all the people who seem to care about you will not be around when you go off system and stop buying tickets. Try it ,you will see. I am sorry about being so direct I hope I am not hurting you.
@ Mesha
If it is of any comfort for you to know yours truly did 7 freaking long years in scamway. Left in 2009 after I just couldn’t take it anymore mentally, emotionally, financially – I was just exhausted, drained like 40 dogs. It took a year to gather enough courage to look around at all these “negative” websites. I learned a lot about the deception that I could not see when I was inside. Another year or so to approach a free mind thanks to all these websites which had people with stories I could relate to. During that time I have expressed my sincere apologies to all that I unknowingly mislead as I was mislead. Now I have become a real thorn to mlm scams! No apolgies. I still got ways to go to fully be recovered but it all started with a curiosity, a feeling of something is not right, noticing some inconsistencies, etc… It took 7 years but it happened finally and my eyes were opened.
Those are not real friends really. They are all nicey nice to you as you are a source of income to them. They are all deluded to think success is just about to happen and they will be diamonds, etc. Here’s a small test to know if they are true friends – tell them you are getting of system for sometime and you are not sure when you will be back on again. They will try to guilt trip you into staying and if that does not work they will shun you. I know, it happened to me. My then “best friend” and sponsor was my best man (his wife was maid of honor) doesn’t talk to us, neither does any of those “them” – some friends would you say? Our families came to know each other, parents, etc but no more relations there.
Anywho, you are at a good point right now. Don’t walk from Team/Lief, don’t wait to walk in 7 years like me, no, RUN NOW!
@Mesha – take your time. Once your story is up, I can add it to the list of Reader Letters or make it a separate post.
@webelieved
BWW
Wow, I wish the use of media such as youtube and blogging was as widespread and easy ten years ago. I have been reading your posts still. Thanks all for sharing. Don’t stop speaking out. This site has helped me and I didn’t know I needed it. I’ve been carrying around TEAM baggage for years.
Happy Holidays!
Cali, welcome to the truth!
http://www.quotesonleadership.org/
http://topleadershipgurus.com/list.php
http://leadershipgurus.net/
Tell me they don’t look the same… and tell me when you search “leadership guru” on google, who’s name pops up next to topleadershipgurus.com. orrin woodward is hosting a top leadership guru site with him as #6 and chris brady as #12? How sick and demented is that… And not to mention, it’s the first site to come up on google, yet no one can post on it but you can vote… thats not heard of and trust me i know… i’ve been creating websites since i was 12. I’ve never seen that before and I have seen thousands and thousands of websites even way better coded and designed than that. This guy is a fraud and it’s disgusting.
@God is Love – There’s a new post that thoroughly debunks leadershipgurus.net here:
https://amthrax.wordpress.com/2011/12/27/arthur-carmazzi-the-truth-behind-leadershipgurus-net-orrin-woodward-and-chris-brady/
Yea I saw the post, but I just read the title and searched it myself, that’s why I posted it I do apologize. I did find some other sites, not too incriminating, but it does bring the question up of why these 2 men built so many sites. I only posted one here, but if you search “orrin woodward” or “living 4 excellence” or “living intentionally for excellence” on google, it brings up a few sites that theyve made that they dont use.
http://www.living4excellence.com/
@God is love – no need to apologize. Just wanted to steer you in the right direction where we are discussing this topic. Orrin and company likely registered several domain names that sound similar to “living intentionally for excellence” as part of the roll-out of LIFE. In this case, it’s nothing out of the ordinary as long as they redirect back to the main site (as opposed to being spam blogs, which has been a well-documented MO of Woodward and company).
Yea I did notice that. They have a lot of blogs and websites “spamming” their names across Google. If I were a “leader” I would setup something central or “grouped” so clients/customers/followers whatever word you’d like to call them, can easily access these “blogs”. Though I do see how it would benefit them, for advertising purposes. However, if I was trying to “help” people and “change” lives… Then wouldn’t I want a central site anyway that does all of the work?
These guys don’t make sense. I mean, if I were creating a leadership business… If I were selling “tools”, and “helping” people, that is a daunting task. A lot of work is involved and a lot of care. Then I would plan it out accordingly and purchase the “correct” domain name, and test all of my websites on there. I look at what they have done making 4 domains that I have found already, and various versions of the site layout each completely different than the other. I mean maybe this guy isn’t even doing anything bad, but then again why would you follow someone who can’t even plan out something as simple as a name for your website for the “amazing big Christian” company that is full of some of the top “leadership guru’s”. I would NEVER follow any of these men even if they offered me billions.
This whole thing was put together poorly, and these guys have left a huge trail of sad stories, broken hearts, lost money, and many other things. How can I have a federal agency investigate these guys? Anyone know? I’m in the mood to accomplish anything right now, even months of phone tag with officials to get these guys put away for good.
I didn’t put this on here the other night, because the site was giving an internal server error. However, it is working again, and here is another example of “bad planning” by the top dude’s…
http://www.lifecoachingforexcellence.com/
@God is love – Click on the link about FTC MLM Info at the top of every page on this blog. There will be a link to the government site where you can file a complaint: https://www.ftccomplaintassistant.gov/
Here is another ex-team member’s comment; that I got copied and pasted from JS. I thought this comment to be very relevent of how desperate and angry they have become. The leaders apparently aren’t learning and applying any ‘leadership’ principles when they have to resort to threatening bodily harm because they want to leave the Team. Very sick.
What happened to those that tell you no..you just ‘move on’ and say..”… NEXT (it’s not for everybody..haha). Holy smokes… These guys are losing it…notice he was ‘threatened’ just because he was “thinking about quiting”..my gosh..what is next for the deperados?
If the business is as great as they say it is…then quit crying and go PROVE IT, stop threatening and harrassing people. Geez.. people should be begging them to get in, not leaving them; if it is so great!! People should start reporting this to the police every time this happens. Just another confirmation.
Name calling to top it off…”Venomous dream stealer”…What Bullies..
Bullies that are losing the gravy train that had for years. From what I understand more and more Team “leaders” are back to work and seeking income from other sources……….I thought they were “financially free” they said it enough. They leave their home states to get away from the team they screwed and because they have to work again Cullen’s- back to work, Gowin-backt to work, darkangelo-either back to or looking for work and a butt load of others I know of 🙂
so I read the merchants of deception e book. wow that was crazy. I noticed a lot of quotes were same ones that orrin still seemed to use. u can tell dexter was his idol and still probably is. since I was never a profit sharer or above was that how it was on the team with former round tables and such? the whole thing of erasing people totally seemed the same thing. since mike foos was an upline of mine and after we went to monavie I never saw or heard from him. Jim Martin first said oh he’s having family problems his father isnt doin well. then a few months later I asked my sponsor and the story changed that he testified against Jim in the lawsuit. I think it’s probably all bs. but would to hear if this is how stuff was done in team with blackmailing and such.
“Do you swear to tell the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?”
littledufflebagboy- There were people who testified because they received a subpoena when the lawsuits happened, and they were sworn in to the above oath. Some took this serious and did as they swore. Others lied there asses off as they were instructed and coached. Those who chose truth are no longer with Team, it’s as simple as that.
To say they testified against someone, well that is a harsh statement…they simply told the truth.
I can’t even imagine being put in a spot like that, but those who told the truth were the real men of character and integrity.
Duffle bag boy, I would seek out Mike and Carol Foos and speak with them. I am sure you will get a different story about why they are no longer around, I am 100% positive that you would get a different story. I have heard what current team says about they men and women that have left, i also spoke to most of the top leaders that left, including the Freeze’s, all of the Dickie’s and about 5 others that I will not mention, suffice it to say that they were some of the top leaders in the Q model. It is amazing how they were slandered, called quitters, traitors and other things by the very men and women I know for a fact lied under oath in a court of law. it is sick how they justify their own actions in the name of profit and ridicule and slander others that kept their character and integrity in court and with God as their witness. They are shameful, all of them, not one of them that testified can say they did not lie at some point. Others were even asked to “remember things” differently than they actually happened. Think of this, a judge ordered them to pay 25 MILLION DOLLARS, that is not chump change, they lost on every point in court…………
i tried reaching out to carol on Facebook a few months ago, but she was just like hope all is well take care. lol didn’t want to talk. i even asked for mike’s number since i have lost it years ago when i broke a phone. but she never responded back. yea i mean we all know why they had to pay $25 million back to A/Q, and it wasn’t because they were honest people ;). its good that at least some leaders in TEAM did the right thing and told the truth under oath. its just a sad thing reading that book and seeing how the TEAM is just like it. only your friends cause you are paying them to be. don’t get me wrong i believe money is the root of all evil and the TEAM system is just pure evil. its a cult and then some. take a look at the leaders, they are just copy cats of one another basically. i still think its funny that they have the same dress code as back in the A/Q. being relatable is really showing up to your friends house with a suit and tie. lol looking back i wanna kick my own ass for being such a dork.
@littledufflebagboy…Thanks for the chuckle. “I wanna kick my own ass” I was picturing Jim Carey from the movie Liar Liar, laying himself out in the courthouse men’s room.
i mean u have to admit showing up to a friends house to be “relatible” in a suit and tie was just dumb. but thats what the “leaders did”. so u couldn’t defy doing that. i can remember at least back in the TOD-TEAM days before monavie walking into coney islands, malls, starbucks, denny’s, whatever feeling so over dressed and out of place, almost like making ur prospect think u are better than them or something. i can still recall the first time i saw my sponsor not in a suit and it was probably like 2-3 months in the business, i had to go over to his place and pick up tools. i was like wow he doesn’t wear a suit all the time. wouldn’t being relatable be just being urself and not faking who u are.
at least what i have heard from other people in monavie, they don’t follow the team way of doing things at all. which is def a plus for the people in monavie. like the fake it till u make it part. the product is the business. don’t quit your job unless u are making TEN TIMES what u do on ur job, cause u never know if ur business would collapse. i have heard other black diamonds tell their groups not to come to major conventions unless its cash u don’t care about because they know it would cost a couple an easy $1000 to fly out to one, and that they would come back and tell their whole group what went on. what was the TEAM saying to someone if they didn’t make it? “oh you should have been there, it was the best one” let me guess chris brady opened made everyone laugh, tim hit on his wife, george made u want to fall asleep, bill probably talked about power player, claude probably went on a steroid rage about freedom and driving his bus, who knows about hawkins probably talks about how he didn’t talk to anyone before the team but somehow scored a job and wife by being that way. and of coarse orrin probably did some just just do it fire me up biblical talk probably something his idol dexter did but its orrins now. do u think i summed up the majors for the most part? oh yea the meetings after the meetings where u heard ur upline tell u how much they loved their group and u are everything to them and they want to succeed. when they could care less unless u had a good size group buying system to fill their pockets. btw how much of the ticket cost of 90 or 125 go to the round tables and above as far as their cuts? i always wondered.
Ah yes, I nearly forgot about that – the “dressing up for success” game, my upline said we had to dress as if we’re in business so that people will look at us and be more responsive when we show them The Plan. Me, I like my jeans, sweatpants, and fleece pants, and oversized t-shirts, but as my sponsor said, we might be walking down the street, and you never know who you’ll be walking into, we’ll come to their house and they’ll get this awful vision of us dressing sloppy when they recognise us from walking on the street. Totally rediculous.
@Littledufflebagboy- “let me guess chris brady opened made everyone laugh, tim hit on his wife, george made u want to fall asleep, bill probably talked about power player, claude probably went on a steroid rage about freedom and driving his bus, who knows about hawkins probably talks about how he didn’t talk to anyone before the team but somehow scored a job and wife by being that way. and of coarse orrin probably did some just just do it fire me up biblical talk”
You are right on! Made me laugh out loud- while also feeling stupid. I remember thinking right before I got out that if TEAM was really growing like they said it was growing then they would have to be in a much bigger arena. That never happened in fact good evidence concludes they are in fact going backwards.
@Finally- Regarding your much earlier comment about top leaders going back to work (Cullen, Darkangelo, ect) do you have any more info there? It would really help a lot when talking to some very good friends I am trying to pull out of the clutches of TEAM/ LIEf.
Chuck Cullen went back to coaching and his wife is working at a Christain school. Mike Gowin is back to his building business, Darangelo was promoting himself as a speaker for corporate events and such. I would also suggest looking up the team that have filed for bankruptcy on here. How can a PC, Darangelo, file bankruptcy 1 year after going PC? Hubers filed as well as Cullen’s. There is a rumor that Brady also filed but to date I do not think anyone has confirmed that. It would make sense that he did to avoid paying his 9million plus share of the Q lawsuit that they got spanked on.
Are the Cullen’s still in? I saw that they are key note speakers in Dalles on Feb 11th, a seminar up there.
Finally- Thanks for the update. I could see the TEAM passing that off as him just wanting to do it. All those guys going back to work should be a huge wake up call to the rest of those still in the scam.
Mattjer22- According to what I am seeing on Twitter the Cullen’s are in and really knocking those “quitters” haha
Yea ain’t that a hoot, the couple that filed for bankruptcy calling out quitters………..I do not know how they sleep. I hear that Tom was one of the guy’s that called the team out on their business practices and he got black balled. Another way they are spinning guys going back to work is to say that they want the corporate accounts for their Lief system……another freaking joke.
Cullen is another wussie, big time, no male genitalia to brag about. That guy whined to no end when Orrin took on Florence, Haugen and Crawford because he and other leaders got kicked to the curb. Nancy would whine to anyone that would listen about how they weren’t making it (bankruptcy) and now they are speaking out agains the people that quit?? They are the worst kind of people imaginable. They left Berean and Pastor Dickie with no good biblical reason for doing so, they are so far up Tim Mark’s butt he has to open his shirt so Chuck can brush his teeth and they are speaking on stage……what are they teaching? How to work for years at a business that bankrupts you? Nancy Cullen, at least the last time I saw her was HUGE, obviously stress eating………And really, ripping on people that quit team…….that is like ripping on a person that quits drinking alcohol when it is ruing their life……Right Tim Marks? You quit drinking because you were an alcoholic and it was ruining your life…..how in the freaking world do you and your team criticize other’s for quitting something that is damaging to their life? You mentored, Tim, two couples into bankruptcies, the Cullen’s and the Darkangelo’s, how do you guy’s sleep at night? It is obvious from that Tem LIE F video that it is taking it’s toll on Amy, not to take a shot but she does not look healthy…….and Laurie needs to get a refund on her plastic surgery/lipo suction, it didn’t take………….oh and she needs to come clean, she said on cd she got in shape by working out with Orrin……….I guess that is their F for fitness, they need to change that to L for Liposuction…….
I was referencing Cullen’s re-tweet of Chris Brady’s “10 reasons why people quit” which is obviously a shot at “quitters”. Makes me laugh because I quit because its a scam.
@Finally lol that just made my day lol. yea all the wives look a mess including Dan :). jill looks like she’s strung out on something
I did notice the people aged quite a bit in the last 3 years, the men’s faces are really wrinkled in their close-up shots. Perhaps their health (Woodward and the PC’s) will bring down the life scam….I can’t see anyone replacing woodward and brady.
@velizabethwhite yea u are right i had to watch it again omg gag lol but yea they all look way beat up looking like none of them have slept in the past 3 years. i mean when ur pc ur free right? all sorts of meetings with ur upline, downline leaders, showing the plan, doing seminars, one on ones- house plans. listening to cds none stop reading all the time, mentoring with ur downline leaders, mentoring with ur upline. I mean get off system for 7-8 months like myself and wow u notice the higher u go the more hours u have to put into your business. u would have to quit your job or business just to put in the hours to be a team leader. i just envision seeing jim martin with a big wrench in his hand in the video and birtles back in scrubs lol. won’t be long before they have w-2’s again 🙂
so to my former teamers did ur upline pc work non stop basically 24 hours a day? or did they actually have all this free time to do whatever 24-7. that i truly don’t believe
They have been removing critical comments on the YouTube video page. There’s no ability to ask critical questions on any of the pro-TEAM blogs, is there? No ability to question past decisions, the history of the organization, or the future direction?
“It’s been mathematically proven that the success rate for people in MLMs is very low. Some people will succeed, yes, but most will fail.”
that sounds like a “regular” business to me…how many businesses bomb the first 2 years?
i
This dribble is from a zombie named Colin Sexton.
No problem. No one is struggling in my downline though. 🙂 We have the direction we need with the proven duplicatable system Orrin and Chris put together. 🙂 You sound very confident your “direction” is better than what we have in place already and I’m sure you have great information but until someone has the actual “results” Orrin and Chris have, I’ll stick with their system. 🙂 That combined with the direction of Yeshua and the Holy Spirit is all I need at this point. Thanks again for your offer and have a blessed day! 🙂
..
My reply to him….
Orrin and Chris’ results are from robbing downlines in thier recent MLM’s.
As far as yeshua, did you ever look that up? Here is the definition…. Yeshua in Hebrew is verbal derivative from “to rescue”, “to deliver”.[7] Its usage among the Jews of the Second Temple Period, the Biblical Aramaic/Hebrew name יֵשׁוּעַ Yeshua‘ was common: the Hebrew Bible mentions several individuals with this name – while also using their full name Joshua.
So you worship Joshua and the Holy Spirit huh? That doesn’t seem like a Christian religion
Clay,
Here you go:
http://smallbiztrends.com/2008/04/startup-failure-rates.html
MLM is consistently worse than this average, and LIFE is an example in a business model that ensures over 95% are losing money all the time.
Um…not to get into a religious discussion but I am also a Messianic Jew and the Torah (and Yeshua) says not to work on Shabbat. Guess with Woodword and co. are doing 😉 Just a thought….
Anyway, I must go back to earning a bit of money online here and there….I will say that I’m eating away at the principle of my debt each month, something that I HAVEN’T been doing when I was with monavie/TEAM….
And I don’t work any more on Shabbat either…..
A good way to help and guard people against Orin and his croonies is to get the word out. If people can spend all their money on this stuff and dedicate so much time what’s another meeting explaining the evil behind scams like this. They say if a person gets a bad meal at a restaurant in a month 396 people will know about it simply by word of mouth. That is how lief is doing it an that’s how lief can be hurt the most! It is a free country with free speech and bet your buttons there isn’t one day I don’t warn someone about the money grubbing “Guru’s”
Frustrated~
I am with you and agree! But it seems for some egotistical and grandiose reason at least one of the liefers (equates to what all do because they follow, 1 Simon) I have witnessed trying to ‘control’ others by threats and commanding who, how, and what others can talk to about anything…as if that works anywhere in a free country with free speech!
Outside of the cult-like controlled environment people don’t “follow” orders from someone who scams others, destructs their business and lies about them! I thought they were ‘fighting’ for and ‘used’ the First Amendment argument in the lawsuit (for their favor) against Quixtar/Amway?…Can’t have it both ways, that would be.. Plain and simple hypocrisy, but then again that seems to be practiced, taught and accepted in the LIEf culture.
I was recently approached about becoming part of TEAM. Let me chronicle my experiences with this group.
First, I was told I really needed to “check this book out” by the person (a co-worker). Even though I told him that I didn’t have time, he proceeded to ask me if I was ready to see the book everyday for about 2 weeks. Now, usually when a friend of mine says “check this book out” they give it to me, I read it, and I give it back. And vice-versa. Its not that I am cheap, its just the normal way to behave. He was strangely VAGUE about the content of the book. This TECHNIQUE of being VAGUE about everything related to TEAM would be a HALLMARK of my experiences with him. I finally told the guy sure (mostly just to get him to leave me alone)and the next day he brought me in one of those crappy pseudo-historical Oliver Demille books. My plan was to skim it and give it back. Let me say this: I have several degrees, one of them being in history. Within reading a few pages, I could tell this book was complete crap: Picking and choosing historical references in order to make his point. Constantly talking about needing to CHANGE the world, yet Demille showed only a basic grasp of history. It was the definition of SOPHOMORIC. I actually laughed a few times while reading it. Anyways…
The co-worker returns a few days later with a bill for the book. I was really confused. I was never told I was BUYING the book. In a moment of stupidity (and partly to keep office-politics calm) I wrote him a check and tried to forget the whole experience. He showed up the next day with 5 more books by Demille. I now became angry and told him I wanted nothing to do with the books or Demille. He became very upset asked me WHAT WAS WRONG WITH ME!? Why didn’t I want to CHANGE THE WORLD?! Didn’t I know there was a FREEDOM/FORCE SHIFT coming up? What would I tell me grandchildren,etc., etc., For those of you saying TEAM is a CULT, I can say that I agree 100% because of the way the co-worker acted.
I asked the co-worker how buying these books would change the world, and of course he was VAGUE. He said that I would need to have him over my house for a presentation and that I would SEE. I said no, he said I was being CLOSED MINDED. I said well, then what is TEAM. He said it was UNIQUE, I said how? He said it was too complicated and he would have to come over to my house to show me. I just kept seeing a big PYRAMID over his head.
Well, this whole story has gotten too long, I will close with this: The story was not over after the books: a few weeks later he showed up at my house with a box of CDs (I am assuming the bullshit TEAM motivational CDs that you PAY for so that you can get motivated to sell TEAM products.. I did not answer the door, he waled around my entire house looking in the windows and knocking on every door for about 30 minutes: STAY AWAY FROM THESE PEOPLE!
Concerned Citizen~
Your comments about your experience are greatly appreciated!! You have them pegged…Vague, Vague and more Vague (done intentionally)..and what a Creep I might add!
If you are ‘in business’…then they should and do have the answers to your questions but refuse to answer them because they know without deception, it doesn’t work! Any legitmate business and if there ‘changing the world’ business was soooo great and if it really worked then would be happy to answer your questions to back up their hyped up garbage!
The audacity of these deceptive fraudsters… but very typical and standard for them to lead you to believe they will be ‘lending’ you a book and then tell you to pay for it; is downright deception! Wow…have they became desperate!
Your comment and the most disturbing of all:,” he waled (walked) around my entire house looking in the windows and knocking on every door for about 30 minutes”….that is creepy! Maybe you should have called the cops and reported a peeping tom!!!…Wow unbelievable!
Great advice…”STAY AWAY FROM THESE PEOPLE!”
Thanks for sharing. 🙂
Wow how sad this has happened to your co-worker. Thanks for sharing. I recently discovered a close friend of my Sister thinks LIFE is the greatest but I don’t know how involved he his. I told my sister the stories being shared here along with my experience with TEAM. I hope this young kid doesn’t throw his pay check away every month. Scary to think I was becoming like that…
Yeah, I changed it to just Cali, it was easier to read in my head.
I was involved with TOD when they first started to get big.I left after a couple of years because I thought I just didn’t have what it took to be successful, something that has carried over into other parts of my life since then. I am working to unravel it all and understand how it has contributed to my shotty feelings of self worth.
Orrin always made me uncomfortable, but I never would have imagined the extent to which he has deceived people. What really upsets me is Laurie. I thought she was a model example of a mom and friend… Their kids were so great but they must be teenagers now and I wonder what kind of adults they will be. The whole thing makes me sad and I worry about people I know getting involved and becoming like the brainwashed co-worker. I’m glad my true friends love me enough to forgive that embarrassing time in my life.
“No one has the right to judge my thinking” – I like that!
@Concerned Citizen
“…Well, this whole story has gotten too long, I will close with this:…”
Actually I was not minding it being long if you had the time. All the same have you come into contact with this Teammunist creep at work after the @home casing incident?
But be sure to update us whatever transpires at work cause I know something will-these Teammunist creeps are too predictable.
Cali- Orrin also made me feel uncomfortable too. In the last couple weeks on TEAM when I was leaning towards leaving I could not listen to one of his CD’s. Just felt like he was screaming SCAM SCAM from my speakers. So thankful I found this community! I want to thank everyone.
Webelieved- It wasn’t me, but I learned about Hasan indirectly through here. Also, this blog served as a group counseling session.
“I don’t want to sound like Hitler, but we have superior knowledge”.
And even more amazing bizarre maybe, they have found a lot of drones or should I say Teammunists, who have bought into this warped thinking to the bone. Holy crap?!!! And this is the Teammunist lot that wants to do what – change the world?!! If this be the standard for a changed world I happily choose to remain content in my ignorance, thank you for nothing cultists!
Here’e a general post. Shit has hit the fan here at work. Does it suck? Yeah a little. But guess what?! When I walk outta here today at 3:00 its over. Does one have that luxury on Team? Nope. Theres always a new situation with one person or another in your group that requires your attention. Another meeting to book. Another meeting to attend (and pay for). Its always something getting in the way. At least here I can’t get fired unless I REALLY F up. Yousee there are laws in place to protect us from being canned on a whim. I know it can still happen but in the corporate world its not easy to fire someone without them giving a damn good reason to. Now study the Lief P&P’s. How much protection does one have from being voted out of an income if the PC yahoos decide to? (If you’re even making money of course.) Yeah, I’m VERY happy with my current shitty situation here at work. I’ll take my 95% job over the S business of Lief any effin day baby! Screw you PC jagoffs! I QUIT AND I”M GLAD I DID!! Enjoy your weekend everyone non-Lief!!
WOW…do i ever want to THANK you people for confirming the “uneasy” feelings i had about becoming a member of team life or life team…couldn’t seem to understand which it was…team or life, anyway i was approached a couple weeks ago and like a fool quickly agreed to become a part of this. Not really for the money making part but for the becoming a better person part…my husband on the other hand was quite interested in the financial security….within a day of joining this, i began to feel the uneasiness in my gut…too bad that didn’t occur BEFORE i gave the money to join…the money is gone and so be it…another good lesson learned on the journey called life (no pun intended) 🙂 I am just soooo glad that my feelings led me here and some other sites as well. I am also grateful that i haven’t been able to get anyone to join…actually the uncertainty wouldn’t allow me to try to sell this to anyone else…thank you, thank you, thank you for saving me from this shipwreck before i lost way more…now for any of you who believe in Prayer, can i ask you to do that for me as i relay my departure to the couple who recruited me? Keep up the good work…and to you all who have been hurt more than I by this scam, I Pray you will heal quickly and find peace and comfort 🙂
You can still get your money back if it’s within the 30 day bracket.
oh really? velizabethwhite, thanks for telling me that…we were gonna just cut our loss, even though we could really use that money!! just want them to go away without any hard feelings….they are due to be here in 10 min…i’m expecting them to pull out the big guns in order to get us to stay….i have dealt with these kind before and that’s why i’m kind of mad at myself for not seeing it right away…my last experience was religion based…not sure how i’m gonna handle this tonight as i think they are really awesome peeps who are totally brainwashed…oops here they come down my driveway….will post later…thanks again 🙂
Hi webelieved…well i have to say it went exactly the way i told my husband it would. I told him first they will try their best to get us to stay, then they will ask you what do you think about this (i would be doing all the talking) then they would try to get us to be customers. So, ya, they tried and it was truely SAD to see and hear. At first i told them that I think they’re awesome and didn’t want to hurt or offend them in any way. They insisted i be honest so i was. I ended up telling her that i believe she is brainwashed. She was visibly upset and leaned toward her husband and said, “we have to go”. when i left the room to gather up all the materials they had given us and we bought to give back, i heard her ask my husband what he thought…sad…then at the door her husband suggested we be customers….i responded with i’m sorry but i will not give orrin woodward i cent of my money. They left without mentioning the $160 we paid 2 weeks ago. My husband and i decided we will let it go but it will be hurtful if we don’t hear anything back from them about it. As for the church i attended that was similar, it is a charismatic nondenominational church…it took me a good 3 yrs to get over the deception. I seen stuff that didn’t jive right in my gut and soul but pushed it aside or was told i hadn’t grown spiritually enough to understand and i would if i continued to do as they say….CULT period. too long to get into here but trust me it was the very same as my 2-3 weeks involvement with Life. So now i don’t attend any church nor will i ever i don’t think….thanks for your interest….I Prayed last night and this morning that my “friends” will get out and that they won’t suffer emotionally and financially as many have….these wolves in sheeps clothing are many and there are many many hurting people out there…just wish there was more i could do 😦
Well, to update our short experience with this horrible scam called Life…when we joined we gave 2 $80 postdated cheques…..the first was cashed and the second was to be cashed next thursday, our payday. My husband just informed me that “they” cashed the cheque but of course it bounced, therefore we now owe an insufficient funds payment of $45 and another payment that is due to come out will not be there….thanks to my honest neighbors!!! We were going to keep the $80 in the bank for them to cash next pay….that’s where honesty gets you in this scam!!! We figured since they put the money on their credit card, we wouldn’t leave them stuck….mind you, they never informed us that we could have used our credit card to join…my husband said that he saw our neighbor on the road and he waved at her and she did not acknowledge him!!! I am sick to my stomach right now. absolutely unbelievable what people will do for the almighty dollar!!! i want to call her and ask her why they did that without speaking to us first…i could have saved her losing the $80 as i would have told her we would keep the money in there to be cashed when it was suppose to be….i guess that just shows that dishonest people assume everyone is dishonest!!! GEESH!!! 😦
justme~
It is unfortunate that you had to experience another desperate move on the part of a liefer.
It sounds to me like your neighbor owes you $45 for not holding the check until the post-date (hold them to it). I would also be asking for the rest of your money back, you could explain this in an email to the Team Office and if they give you trouble, send a complaint into the BBB or Attorney General. You could call the bank and ask why they cashed it before the date?
Holding your neighbor accountable is what they need to force them to do the right thing,apparently they haven’t learned that lesson! They wonder why they have a poor reputation!
Another shinning example of orrin woodward’s “life changing” system and the results of yet another taxed and damaged relationship.
Your neighbors attempted to scam you even further! I think you should go/have gone, after your money whatever you can. It’s about the principle. These two classless clowns should have had the decency to pow wow with you about it before attempting to sneakily cash your check, after having learned about your position. If they were good to their own letter they should have brought up the issue of a refund to you so they could appear to be above the table and thus, have them and their LIEf reflect well upon you. Instead they chose anything but…i.e. to scam you. At the very least they should expect you to inquire about your refund as per LIEf policy instead of acting dumb. Thus, it was not necessary for them to cash the remaining check now was it? You should proly aske’m that.
MLM cult adherents are taught not to have anything to do with those who don’t support them to protect their brain yada yada. Sorry your neighbors are now giving you the cold shoulder. It’s classic MLM cult act, quite normal with them but strange to you. You can’t get people to behave like this unless you brain wash them.
BTW it’s a very good stance you took not to let you money end up in some kingpin’s pocket. Good! You can always keep your refund or donate it to a charity rather than it finance these despots’ lifestyles.
Thanks for your input guys..i called the bank and got my $45 back since it was postdated for next thurs…the reason i didn’t ask for the money back is because she put it on her credit card and i didn’t want her to lose that. The thought did occur to me that that was her decision and not ours and a bad business decision on her part…also she could prob get that back from the top office if we asked her for it back. I also thought of calling her and asking why she did such a thing and perhaps someday i will have that opportunity, but i have decided to let it go and Pray that she some day sees what she is into and the person she has become because of it and has the courage to get out. What i have decided to do is let as many people as i can, know about this evil scam!!!
All of you X-TEAM… hey, that would be an excellent movie trailer for some defunct A-Team spinoff! It would be starring: Loadofbul, 2Face, Mirdick, and BS Barackus. 😀
Anyways, All of your X-TEAM stories make this all very intriguing for the uninitiated. I was never a member but this whole “business” is compelling and I can’t stop reading. I was approached by a Quixtar guy way back, but once he came to my house with the details I quickly became uninterested.
The reason I’m here is a coworker recently went to a LIFE meeting* and claims it’s going to solve all his money problems – both by the books and the “business”, already signed up for two subscriptions* and a book pack*. He said I should go with him to the next one and I told him “f*** that”. Upon searching, turns out it’s the same re-branded Quixtar crap. Small world. I’ve sent him several links from this place (among others), along with my verbal advice, but only time will tell. Some people /need/ to believe.
Question: if someone were fully armed and mentally prepared, do you think an outsider could take the 30-day (or 90, what my coworker says) trial and still walk away unscathed? Is the brainwashing strong enough to break the average Joe, or do they only prey upon those who fall on hard times? Would you guys recommend something like this or am I playing with fire here? I’d like an inside perspective, but I certainly refuse to spend any money or significant time on this. I can’t say I’m 100% considering this, but I’m entertaining the thought.
Great site and keep up the good work!
* The TEAM uses a lot of jargon and abbreviations, which makes this very convoluted. I’m not trying to be vague, I’m just ignorant of all the TEAM-speak used for the different meetings and subscriptions and levels and all. Hopefully you exes know what I’m referring to, even though I don’t.
I’ve met Mark Crawford. It cost me about $1500 in useless product to get the ” privilege” to go to his personal cottage. I worked with Claude Hamilton and spent thousands for the “privilege” to learn from his wisdom. Spent thousands on useless books, cd’s and seminars to learn how to build my business. How to spot people with dreams to crush, and how to keep weak minded people hooked. Then, it came to me at a seminar. Somebody was teaching us how to keep the “crabs in the bucket”, as he put it. I realized, I was one of those crabs, and saw the exact tactics he mentioned being used on me. The independent business they offer now is the same as they offered then. The products they claim to offer may be different, but the business model is the same. What people realize is that the product they are selling, is you. They get from you what they need, and when they no longer see any value in you, move to somebody else. They only have invested interest in you as long as you are producing members and spending money. Once that dries out, they don’t care. I asked my up-line if I needed to buy the books and cd’s. The answer, “If you want my help, you will”. In other words, I make money, good money, on my down-line (or what ever they call it now) spending money on this stuff. I’ve been out for 6 years, and still trying to pay off my credit cards (yes cards, because you need more than 1 to rack up).
Basically, if you are hard working, trusting, and have a steady disposable income, they would love to have you. But don’t be fooled, they are not your friend, you are their product. And once you are not selling, they move on to the next big thing.
Cory- Thanks for sharing. I know that people will run across this story and be saved of the garbage that you went through because you shared.
This is hystarical the TEAM/LIEF office number 1.810.600.3432 directly to a voicemail stating you must email to contact them. No office hours, no “if you know your parties extension” option. Nothing just all contacts must be maid through email, and you can’t even leave a message! What kind of “business” operates that way?
Frustrated: the answer is that NO legitimate business operates that way. It is a scam, plain and simple.
Has anyone ever been to their office in Michigan?
It’s not in a very big building assuming the one in flint is the main office. I am definitely goig to swing by next time I’m out that way.
I’ve been there. You can’t get past the tiny little lobby unless someone lets you in. It is locked up pretty tight.
That is interesting, why the need for such tightness? What could be in there…a bunch of cd’s & books, brochures, & branded clothing? Or do they have lots and lots of cash and secret hidden info? Just sounds a bit paranoid to me.
Outsider~
You movie trailer comment is hilarious! Welcome to the site! 🙂
Maybe Orin calls it LIEF because you would have to spend every waking minute of your life working just to break even
Hey all,
I have been in Team/LIFE for about six weeks. My introduction was via my cousin so that there lowered my guard. I saw the plan and it was all quite confusing. The life improvement materials “hooked” me so I took the first night pack. The CD’s sounded cool so at the follow through I signed up. When I look back I question why I gave my credit card and social insurance number at a coffee shop. A funny thing to note, when asked for my SIN I thought it was a joke and gave out a random series of numbers. Once I realized he was serious it took me some time to remember it. Likely a defence of my subconscious.
So I joined, listened to CD’s, read books, attended open meetings, and went on a road trip to a major. It was all fun stuff. During this time some walls came down and issues came out in the open between myself and members of my family. My exposure to LIFE/Team did boost my confidence. This is all during my first few weeks. At the back of my mind I still failed to see how LIFE would be a reliable method to earn money for any more than a few. Since I was in for the self improvement I brushed it off.
At this point I still had not told members of my family exactly what I was in. For one, I didn’t understand it all myself. Also, as you know, the “best” way to introduce people is via the plan. Calling my first prospect was difficult. The fact I couldn’t simply tell have what it was over the phone made it harder. He was shown the plan but didn’t sign on either way. My second booking went much easier and the plan was shown by another upline. After my upline left I asked my friend what he thought. Immediately I received a flat out no and a mention of pyramid scheme. A little over a week ago the first friend I introduced to T/L agreed to sign up (though this was more in an effort to keep an eye on me and see what I was getting in to).
Last Thursday I received my first LT subscription. I found it odd a couple of the CD’s kept referencing MV instead of LIFE. This sparked me to do my first bit of research. Talk of pyramid scheme was making me uneasy. I started reading the Canadian laws regarding MLM’s. Of course I was hesitant to read any criticism as “DON’T READ CRITICISM” is at the front of my mind. A seed of doubt in my mind was beginning to sprout. The following night my brother came to me and wanted to discuss his own research on T/L. I was open to hear what he had to say, Amthrax was one of the sites he walked me through. What I saw did not surprise me, only confirmed what I was not able to admit.
My time with “Life Training” was brief and educational. This is the first time I was exposed to a cult atmosphere. It’s a lot like a sunburn, easy to avoid with the right thinking but once you let your guard down you get burned. Thankfully I only received a minor sunburn.
Well folks, this got rather lengthy, will talk to you all later.
I created a dedicated post for @MiniatureGiantSpaceHampster’s post here:
Please leave comments at that post instead of here (to it’s easier to follow the story).
A close friend of mine and I were approached by her father about this a few weeks ago, we are in a bit of financial desperation so looked into trying it out. We watched a few videos and it sounded good. That’s when my skepticism took over. I had a friend look into it and even before this I called it a cult like pyramid scheme.
He found a few sites on it all in support, all written by members. He dug further and found this site along with the link to this he sent links to the Attorney General, FBI, and FTC.
We cancelled our subscriptions and talked to her father. We asked him how we actually make money and he just said, “You build the business!” That was all I needed to hear. There is only one company i have ever heard of that is a legit MLM and they show the exact position you are in you must sell actual products to get paid and if you bring in any new members you only get a discount on products.
Going back to the whole Amway thing. It was learned that only a select few made a lot of money on the self help hype cds and tapes. Something tells me that the leaders here are doing the same thing with the books, cds, and basically everything else you are offered. I can’t believe I almost fell for it.
I wish there was a task force that was able to investigate and disband mlm and pyramid schemes then give all the money back to people who invested so much time and money into it that they lost everything. Just because it’s illegal doesn’t mean their aren’t loopholes. Isn’t Amway, Mona Vie, and Quixtar all still active. The only thing that ever teaches people that they are doing something wrong is to take away from them what they have taken from others.
Maybe if every ex member started a blog that told their own story about The Life business/ TEAM/Mona Vie and it’s schemes and then everyone started to approach Congress to have them investigated. Maybe just maybe it can actually happen. Completely ending MLM and Pyramid scheming. There are and will be many people who’s lives will be harmed by commercial cults.
@Robert L – Thanks for sharing your story and for investigating the business before getting too deeply involved.
Quixtar was Amway (in North America). They retired the name and it’s back to Amway. MonaVie is still around, but have experienced some high-level leader defections in recent years. The leaders of LIFE were originally from Amway/Quixtar and MonaVie.
The FTC does investigate and shut down illegal businesses. They most recently closed shop on Fortune Hi-Tech Marketing and Zeek Rewards. I suspect, however, that they do not have the resources to investigate every scam that’s out there. Some might fly under the radar for years before being shut down. If you feel strongly about the matter, you can file your own report to the FTC and your local state Attorney General by following the link here.
I’m sorry to hear about your financial difficulties. There are a number of resources that you can look at to get you back on your feet or to give you tips on how to start your own legitimate business. Start at the public library and look at sites like Lazy Man and Money. Lazy Man has a good set of finance blogs that he links to (right-hand sidebars).
I have a question for ex team/LieF members…
Have you noticed “relabeling” in the materials? I would really appreciate specific examples.
Hypothetical Example: “team leader builder”is the same as “LieF building leaders”
Frustrated – I definitely noticed all the label changes. I lost count of the number of labels for the “Think Business” CD. And the “Power Player Pack” has had at least 6 labels. Just a way to sucker people out of more money by making them buy the latest version. Even though the only real change was the color of the label.
That was always one of the things that bothered me. They really intimidated people who already had 3 versions to buy the newest version, even though these people were struggling after already having been scammed out of thousands and thousands of dollars. Yet the greedy PC needed to make some extra money so they changed the name from Internet Services/Quixtar to Team of Destiny, to TOD, to Team, to Team/MonaVie, to Team/Life, to Life and now to Life Training. Disgusting!
And with every change is an entire new set of tools – Top 50, Getting Started, Additional Info, Power Player Pack, Inviting Pack, Culture Pack, Relationship Pack, etc. Total scam!!!!
Hi, I was a power player in the old business and quit under certain circumstances in which aren’t appropriate to talk about on here. I had a very shady and fake upline, I will just leave it at that. I just recently am starting to build the new business and I have to say that I like it a LOT more than the old days. There are many great changes they have made. Although I would love to see the system have pv. That is my question though, a PC leader was just recently at an open meeting and told us that soon one and a half teams will make 6 figures a year. What are your thoughts? Do you think they are going to attach pv to the system? What if any are some ways to building a legit network marketing business? I have failed with other investments and am very determined to be successful. I do like the education the LIFE business brings to the table about our founding fathers and the path our country is on. I am also not spending NEAR as much in this LIFE as i remember spending in quixtar. Thank you for your replies as I am juse trying to understand.
Inquisitive – Do more research. I can guarantee you will end up spending much more than anyone ever imagined spending with any of the old Quixtar tool systems.
They start you off thinking it’s only $50 a month, then gradually add the extra CD’s, numerous CD packs, Top 50, majors, etc. Then really start to ramp you up buying extra’s of each ‘if you are serious’ so you will have them for your future downline. Then every 6-12 months, somehow each packs needs to be repurchased because the design of the cover has changed and ‘a true leader would not want the old materials’. If you are fully in and following all their advice, you’re looking at around $10,000 a year in expenses on your Schedule C.
Also, don’t be fooled by all the talk about the founders of our country. It’s all a scam to play on the heart of people and take advantage of the concern people have for our count try. If they truly wanted to make a difference, they would offer this information on downloads for a fraction of the price. Instead, they want to play on the vulnerability of people and take advantage of it while fleecing thousands of people out of tens of thousands of dollars.
The name has changed several times over the years, but the hearts of these scamsters is still the same. Read through this site at all the lies and deception of the leaders and ask yourself if these scammers really live the life they claim on stage. They are the most hypocritical phonies I have ever seen.
Thank you for your reply. Is there a newer blog that you guys are all still posting on? I have done a couple months worth of research. I.E. these blogs and also the pros of the business as its built now. I understand that if someone would be “all-in” the costs can get pretty hefty. That is why I don’t teach that. I teach to start with the bare minimum of what you can afford. NO CREDIT CARD DEBT! Lol. I also agree that this education is more valuable than Comcast education. Even if there is no business attached to it I like the education part. $50 a month is the product portion. There are a couple $10/ month and $25 / month. I will not sign up for everything until I have a business that pays for it. I wrote a list of pros and cons. Although I don’t understand why some things were done te way they were in the past I still believe there can be a morally correct way to build this business. Do you guys have any ideas on how it can be better?? I would love to hear them because I want to build it ethically. What are your thoughts on 1- 1/2 teams being a 6 figure income business? The break even point in this business is also a lot sooner than the old. Thank you for your time!
Inquisitive – there is no “morally correct” way to build the business when the leaders in said business are all crooks. Even if you have the best intentions of not bleeding your group dry on tools, the system will cram it down their throats. They hook you in with the $50 a month crap. But within a few months ‘anyone who is a true leader’ will be spending $500-1,000 a month in order to fulfill all the requirements that are beat into everyone from the stage at seminars.
We went in with the best of intentions also. But over time, we realized that the entire group (LITERALLY) was losing money (lots of it!!!!!). Not a single person or couple in our group besides me made over $1 of net profit after tool expenses. That is not an exaggeration. Literally, every single person on the system had a net loss.
Flat out – this is as scam. and there is no way around it. The vast overwhelming majority of people will be scammed out of thousands of dollars, miss lots of great memories with their family, alienate previous life-long friends – and end up with nothing to show for it.
I have never personally seen a group that has created so much severe damage to peoples families, finances, churches, and friendships. The trail of carnage this group has left behind is devastating.
Do not look the other way and allow people you care about to end up as more victims of this scam.
Hello Inquisitive,
I was only in LIFE for six weeks so I have no advice as to how to make the system work. LIFE did open my eyes to some things so I don’t regret my short time with them. Since then I’ve done research on gaining financial independence via alternative methods. If you are interested search up topics like “Financial Independence”, “Personal Finance”, “Budgets”, “Early Retirement”, etc. The blogs which clicked with me promote lower consumption lifestyles and saving/investing a good portion of your income. I recommend http://www.duckduckgo.com, that search engine keeps you out of the bubble filter. What I found cool is these sites don’t even mention MLM’s from what I’ve read so I couldn’t shrug them off as naysayers. 🙂 Continuing with LIFE or not, I say good luck to you. 🙂
Inquisitive, I agree with noteam 100%. You cannot, I repeat, you CANNOT build this “business” in a moral or ethical way. Period. Read the Life Policies document…you are nothing more than an at-will employee without any benefits. They can take your “business” at any time and for any reason, and you will have no recourse. In order to build any kind of group, you will have to either lie to people about “owning” their own business, or you will have to sign up total morons.
Also, do not forget that all of the recognition you see at seminars and majors is faked. I used to wonder why my team was not growing when other teams were going Quad Power Player, etc. I have since learned that those “Quad” Power Players, Diamonds, etc. were completely fake. I learned this from their very own uplines who could see the numbers in their own team, and have also quit because of the lies and deception.
Honestly, there are so many better ways to make money.
As for the change in the pay structure, for crying out loud, how many times are they going to shuffle the deck? First of all, changes like that mean that they can re-shuffle recognition so it looks like more people are succeeding. Also, changes like that mean everyone will have to buy new tools/CDs/books/presentation materials.
Every time I meet with ANYONE who used to be affiliated with this group, the feeling is the same: THANK GOD WE ARE OUT!!! Thank God our eyes were finally opened! No one wants back in. If the “business” were that good, don’t you think someone would want to try it again?
Once again, thank you for you replies. I would like to reiterate that I was in the old business in quixtar around 2000-2001. I do see a huge diference in the business now in a very positive way. The transition from the old to the new on the other hand I feel is pretty shady and negative. I have already spoke with my lawyer and he said that it sounds like a good business. He said amway believe it or not is a legit business. I believe if someone were to focus more on customers it can be profitable for all. To build a community of people that build a large customer base. Plenty of Fortune 500 companies use leadership products don’t they? As for the pay structure, I feel that they are changing it for the better. Don’t quote me on this but I believe they are going to change it so someone with a group that team #1 is at 9,000 and team #2 is at 6,000 will make $50k a year. And if someone with a group that team #1 is at 15k and team two around half that will make $100k a year. If someone builds a small group of people on those teams that have large customer volume wouldn’t the percentage of people profiting be substantially higher? Excuse me if you feel like I am trying to argue with anyone as I definitely am not. I am just sick of my job and can’t do what I am doing for much longer. Thank you! 🙂
Inquisitive – I hope you are sincere. Unfortunately, knowing how deceitful the leaders of LIFE are, I have a feeling you are a plant. I know because I used to be one too. Many of us on this site used to actually post distracting comments at the direct request of members of the PC. I was. So I hope you are not posting for them.
However, I have a hard time believing you showing the business to an attorney who said it was a good business. No attorney would ever read through the Policies & Procedures and recommend something that crooked to their clients. Are you telling me your attorney actually read the Policies & Procedures??? That is like the constitution for the entire business. All legal rights stem from that. And any attorney will see – there are no rights. It is not your business. They can change it from any time. And they can take it from you at any time for any reason they chose.
Inquisitive: I certainly do not see you as arguementative, though I do suggest to keep your options open. Maybe you’ll find something else you are really passionate about just around the corner. 🙂
Noteam – I want to assure you and everyone that I am defiantly NOT a plant and I am definitely very sincere. The closest I’ve ever gotten to either Orrin or Chris was back in 2001 I qualified power player and was invited to Chris’ house with my upline. From everyone’s past comments on these blogs I can understand one would think I was plant. I only spoke with my attorney for about 15 min telling him some of the details. He has not read the policies and procedures yet but I will defiantly have him read them soon. My upline is building this business with customers as a main focus and he is having quite a bit of success. 🙂 I believe I want to do the same. I believe if I can build a community of people and teach more of the customer aspect of the business, every single person in my community could potentially be in the profit.
I am very sorry about everyone’s experiences on here. I to had a VERY bad one back in the old business. Racked up a lot of credit card debt and was encouraged by my upline to build it in very shady ways. My upline was a very bad man and ended up incarcerated for it.
As for the part in the P & P’s where it says they can take your business for no reason I am definitely not fond of that. I have read them once and didn’t see exactly were it said that so I guess I will need to read them again. I will speak with my attorney also and ask him about that specifically.
Spacehampster – thank you for your politeness and suggestions!! I will definitely look into them 🙂
Inquisitive-
You state: “What are your thoughts on 1- 1/2 teams being a 6 figure income business?”
First where is this in writing, what PC told you this that you make a 6 figure income and the question you ask doesn’t make sense.
What do you mean exactly about “1 1/2 teams making a 6 figure income business?”
Melanie Morgan – There is nothing in writing. It was said on stage at a tues open. Maybe that’s what part of the changes will be in the coming year? When it comes to who said it I guess it doesn’t really matter other than the man isn’t a new PC. When he said one and a half teams, I’m guessing he meant team #1 at 15,000 or more and team #2 at 7,500 or more. And I believe if team #1 is at 9,000 or more and team #2 is at 6,000 or more that will be a $50k or better business.
Inquisitive – Why the secrecy? Who exactly said this at an open? If they said it at an open, they aren’t hiding.
Inquisitive~
Ahh..nothing in writing. I am not trying to pick on you. Thanks for the attempt but still it is just a guess and very vague which sounds like the same ole promises. That is where I see the same ole problem and those kinds of “claims” offer up mostly false hope.
Why do you feel it isn’t important or the need to withhold the PC’s name? Here is why it is extremely important coming from a PC, especially in a “Tuesday” (where everyone learns to STP) herding the cats or buck stops there. That night IS THEIR TRAINING…and they know everyone repeats what they hear and are “taught”…. from the PC… (who conveniently are making those enticing income claims in a Tues night where they just “throw it out there” and it isn’t recorded, so they don’t have to be accountable). Again, that is the same old bad practice and gives people false hope.
Did they give you and everyone else in that Tuesday Night Meeting an “Income Disclosure Statement” to back up those claims? Do they teach this, now? Coming from a “PC”, I have to say that it is thee most important what they teach:
Here is a quote and couple of links might help you understand:
link:http://thompsonburton.com/mlmattorney/2013/07/02/mlm-income-claims-basic-guidelines-for-companies-and-distributors-ftc/
“The FTC says that any income claim made is regarded as what consumers will “general[ly achieve . . . .”[5] In other words, what you represent as potential money to a prospect is what a reasonable prospect will expect to earn. IF YOU LACK SUBSTANTIATION (aka, you have no proof) that the majority of your distributors earn the amount represented by a few high earners, you must give a clear and conspicuous disclosure indicating exactly the percentage of distributors who earn at least the amount you represented.[6] And you must also disclose the average earnings. If you’re a distributor that’s working with a particular company, if they do not provide adequate income disclosures, DO NOT MAKE INCOME CLAIMS. The pressure is on them to provide the data.”~ Kevin Thompson
Do you believe…6 figures is “what consumers will generally achieve?” We know that is not the case. This is where many people get hurt, they end up convinced by that enticement that they will be that person but the reality..they will end up losing and most likely with massive credit card debt, broken relationships and possibly much worse.
I too agree with No Team and Former Round Table.
You seem to be very sincere and a little on the fence but ( maybe that is why you are here) if that is not the case then what I find the most interesting and am curious about is; WHY would you come to THIS site, to ask questions? You are making a lot of what seems “positive” plugs and am not sure if you are trying to convince yourself but its seems you are just “hoping” they are different?
Could you share with us; ” I do see a huge diference (sic) in the business now in a very positive way.” What are the huge differences?
Did they tell you, you shouldn’t be on here, (you could lose your business) asking questions of “critics”? (Again another stipulation in the P&P). Maybe you did and that is why you didn’t want to come with your name? Do they tell you and every prospect you have to be “voted in” or can be “voted out”, of profit sharing?
Inquisitive, I sincerely hope you keep seeking and especially ask those questions of your attorney, and realize as Former Round Table stated, there are many ways to make money (you already know this) because the odds are not in your favor with LIFE. I would also add there are many other jobs (other than the one you hate).find what you love and do that! Good luck
Melanie Morgan – thank you for your response. I do remember you and your husband in the old business and think of you as two great leaders. To be honest I am humbled to even have this convo with you and the others even tho I don’t know who they are but I’m sure I would if disclosed. Have you ever been sued by Orrin Melanie? For having your name disclosed it leaves you open right? Your right the PC said it on stage so it wasn’t like he is hiding. It was Bill Lewis. Prolly 2 months ago now I believe. He was the one who said he would maybe get in trouble for saying it but said it anyway that one and a half teams in the future may make 6 figures a year. My jaw dropped when he said it. And just recently in a different smaller meeting Orrin actually talked about how just a leader may make $50k a year. There weren’t any numbers thrown out but to me a leader is 9k and 6k. In two groups. I understand these are baseless claims that hold no merit. But my question to you guys is what if this is true? What do you guys think? They do give out ids’s at every open and have a large banner IDS that everyone can see. They refer to it quite a bit. I also know that I have to have an IDS in hand when I show the plan. What if they change the pay plan to this in the future? I know they trying too go to 1 million people so maybe that is one of the future steps? I come to this site knowing its against the P & P’s, that is why I do not disclose my name. But I am the type who likes to hear both sides of the story. Some of the huge differences I see we’re #1 the product obviously. It’s education and not toilet paper. It’s learning about freedom and the founding fathers. I signed up during Mona vie but wouldn’t build it until LIFE. I know I can get the education anywhere but to build a business around it I can not. My job is rough on me and I have no retirement so I have to come up with my own. I know I would have to be voted in for profit sharing and there is no disclosed info on that pay plan. That I DO NOT like. But what I’m guessing, ( once again hypothetical) is if they are going to change the pay plan to those numbers I talked about before Do you think it is possible to do that if the did away with profit sharing and attached pv to the system? Trust me if they don’t make those changes on the pay plan like they said I will defiantly be out and make sure everyone knows why I am out. Wether they attach pv to the system or not. Thank you very much for your insight as I do respect every single one of you for the leaders that I’m sure you still are!!! And for the comment (sic)?
I’m just trying to learn.
“I understand these are baseless claims that hold no merit. ”
“Have you ever been sued by Orrin Melanie? For having your name disclosed it leaves you open right?… I come to this site knowing its against the P & P’s, that is why I do not disclose my name.”
If you really believe and understand the gravity of these two statements then you cannot also believe this one:
“I still believe there can be a morally correct way to build this business. Do you guys have any ideas on how it can be better?? I would love to hear them because I want to build it ethically.”
If the leaders were interested in ethics why the clandestine pay plan for the part of the business that has ALWAYS been their largest profit center? Do Orrin and Chris not have any power to disclose that fully? Remember from the old business when that was the answer to why that part was so secret? So now that they don’t have an Amway shill breathing down their necks, why haven’t they already made that change? Why are they so protective of “your own business” that you can’t be trusted to come to a critical site and ask questions in your own name without having “your own business” taken away? Why if THEY believe so much in what the Founding Fathers believed, essentially set up a system where they get to reign supreme and you ultimately have NO rights?
I agree with the others that have responded to you already, go find a job you can enjoy. There are lots of avenues for this type of education if you want to do something in that field. John Maxwell, Michael Hyatt, Dave Ramsey and others have made their living that way too. Most importantly, they are doing it ethically. You don’t have to BE an author either, but you could go work with a group like one of theirs. Get your resume cleaned up and make a list of the places that might be your dream job(s) and start sending out copies of that resume. Spend your Tuesday nights in that effort or one planning a business of your own rather than associating yourself with those who make baseless claims and empty promises.
Inquisitive: Would you be interested in hearing my reasons for leaving?
Space hampster – Yes I would like to know. Thank you 🙂
@ Inquisitive,
You have to be voted into profit sharing…that will NEVER happen unless you exploit your team and coerce them into going into debt so that the PC members can continue to live their lavish lifestyles. There’s no way they’ll vote you in unless you’re a full participant in their scam. It is NOT a pay for performance business. They are holding all the cards and there’s nothing you can do about it (except leave).
I agree with the others that there is no way to build this thing legitimately. If you do, Orrin and company will make sure you never succeed.
Inquisitive, go read Amthrax’s post on the Quad 100 (level just beneath PC) that went bankrupt (Bill Newton) & look at his stated income in the bankruptcy documents. Those are indisputable data. If a Quad 100 isn’t cracking 100k, do you think 9000 & 6000 points will get you 50k? It doesn’t add up. Be careful.
Once again I do thank everyone on hear for helping me see your side of the story. I honestly do hope this LIFE company can be on the right path. I still do believe I can build a legit and moral business through customers. But, I do have to say all of your stories do scare me. My ultimate decision will probably end up with what my lawyer things about everything. I do have a lot of trust in him and i will make sure to point out certain points in the P & P’s and tell him about the system and how one has to be voted in for profit sharing. Thank you once again!
Maybe I’m a bit cynical after having such direct access to the leaders of this scam – but does anyone else find it odd that Inquisitive keeps trying to make it sound like “yes, there were problems in the past, but those are all gone with the new business.”
For those of us who have been around for awhile, we heard that statement time and time again everytime there was a name change or a change in the design on the cover of the CD’s that we had to re-purchase with the new logo on the cover.
Also, why the statement to Melanie about ‘have you been sued’? Does that not sound like the typical fear tactic Orrin & Tim use? That almost sounds like a direct quote or someone who is typing what is dictated to them.
I know some may call me cynical. But I’ve just seen too much of that type of behavior by these scamsters in the past. And I remember the times I was contacted to write posts on these types of blogs myself.
I wouldn’t say you are really that cynical. You just are going by your expirences. And I respect that. That is why I came to this site to ask questions because I wanted to hear what both sides to the story have to say. If I remember right, even back when I was in the old business there were rumors of a tool business. I could be wrong though. It just seemed to me that everything that has happened between then and now was one big learning curve and things got pretty messed up, lost in the shuffle, and unfortunately people were very deeply hurt. But from speaking with all of you it was more than that. I am very sorry for that. I remember back then thinking I wanted to be just like all of you. You guys all held yourselfs up to very high standards and I loved it. I only asked if Mrs Morgan had been sued because if not then wouldn’t it be ok for everyone to disclose their identities? It’s not even a really big deal to me. Believe me I do not speak with anyone who is even above a turbo 10 right now. I would actually love to meet with some of you for lunch or something sometime?
Inquisitive~
“Have you ever been sued by Orrin Melanie?” Why would you jump to that? Interesting…is this what has became the accepted norm for people, never had anyone ask that one 🙂 Could this be what is flowing down the “whisper campaign”? Or did you pull that out of thin air?
Very interesting question to say the least, and definitely odd and out of place wouldn’t ya say? In 13 years I don’t remember Orrin or anyone ever speaking of suing their downline, except a hushed blurb about Scott Larson and he was just a “critic”.
What would make you ask, is the real question, inquisitive? There was a reason 🙂 Almost seems a veiled threat? Especially from someone who claimed the closest they ever got to Orrin was when you went Power Player once back in 2000-2001 oh and that little meeting recently.
Does Orrin sue all the people whom he doesn’t like their opinion of him, or people sharing their experiences? What about those Christian principles, founding fathers, the right to free speech? Curious, and since you knew us, do you think that is the right thing for Orrin?
Have you read about Qrush?
To answer your question (although you already know the answer). NO.
Here’s how I look at my life, inquisitive, I fear no one and my eternity is what’s important.
Love the verse Joshua 1:9, and another great encouragement…read The book of James.
Good luck, with your attorney. Think your right on track.:)
Inquisitive~
You answered the question. I would be glad to meet with you, contact me with your real name on my FB.
I’m sorry if that question was taken out of context. The only reason why I even asked was because I thought that was the reason why everyone else don’t disclose their names because that’s what they were afraid of. I did not mean for anyone to get upset over the question. I do envy the true person that you are Mrs Morgan. Trust me I am in no way trying to threaten anyone. All I am trying to do is get both sides of the story and that’s it. I have never spoke with Orrin. I was invited to Chris’ house once because I went power player once back in 2001 but I don’t even remember talkin to him either honestly.
Thanks you and Apology accepted. You still can PM me on FB, I doubt we live in the same state though, to go to lunch.:)
Did you know Mark and Raquel Peters?
No I don’t remember them. I mainly remember you and your husband from the tapes. I searched for you but there are a lot of Melanie Morgans. Which one is you?
Maybe we do live in the same state because the times of the postings are the same. I actually still have a lot of those tapes also. I went through them a couple weeks ago and noticed there were a lot of leaders that aren’t involved anymore. That’s what made me start asking questions.
Not sure what my profile says I have it on private but Melanie-Girton-Morgan
Inquisitive – How can you really not remember Mark & Raquel Peters? They were some of the absolute biggest leaders back when you say you went Power Player. How could someone go Power Player and not know the name Mark & Raquel Peters?
Do you remember the name Pastor Dickie? Bobbie Dickie? Don & Chris Freeze? The Zimmermans? The Raatz? Randy & Valerie Haugen? Jeff & Barb Granger? Billy & Peggy Florence? Chuck Goestschel? Mark & Tammy Crawford?
What happened to all these people who worked directly with Orrin Woodward himself? Could it be that once they got close to him they realized what a lying deceitful scammer he was? How could you even think you could build a business morally if the head of that organization is such a scammer?
Have you read the Darkangelo bankruptcy papers to see how little they actually made from the business the whole time they were up on stage leading people to believe they were making hundreds of thousands of dollars a year. Then we come to find out they were actually over $200k of consumer debt ( most of which was on credit cards). And these were some of the biggest, most recognized speakers in all of TEAMland.
If you truly went Power Player in the past, you are smart enough to see that things have not gotten better. They have actually gotten worse. All ethics have been thrown out the window with these scammers.
Inquisitive,
I have to agree with No Team. I am not quite sure what it is you are trying to accomplish here, but it seems to me that you have already decided that Team/Life is a good thing, and you don’t even hear what we are saying.
I was around in 2000-2001, and I think that was when this group was at its best! Since then, the deception and corruption have literally taken over the entire leadership. I do not believe there is an honest one in the bunch. These guys talk a good game from stage, but they are all rotten at the core.
Let’s see, Huber, Darkangelo, Cullen, and Newton all filed for bankruptcy. (There may be more, but we know about these for sure.) Guzzardo had his dream property foreclosed. Birtles abandoned the house they bought from Brady. Bill Lewis doesn’t pay his property taxes. These people all stand on stage and claim to be qualified to teach finances, leadership, mentoring, etc. The majority of the recognition on stage is faked. Raatz and Raquel Peters had their business income taken from them without warning or recourse. The Policies and Procedures clearly state that your “business” can be taken at any time for any reason. Countless people who were once best friends with Woodward, Brady, and Marks have left the group in disgust because of the lies and total lack of morals or ethics at the top. This site is full of countless stories of financial ruin, personal heartbreak, and families and friendships that have been permanently damaged.
But you think they are on the right track and you can build this the right way? What is wrong with you? I don’t care how bad your job is, I would rather be homeless than be in business with people like these.
Inquisitive
I am curious about YOU. What is your agenda? The comment about suing people, Melanie Morgan, and wondering why we don’t come out with our names..hmm.
Now let us educate you, because you appear to need some education, right now, and badly.
First off, we all like to think in this Country, that TRUTH always wins..well, maybe it does, but not always in court. Many times, he who has the biggest wallet wins..the big wallet can pay for a lot of attorney time. Sad, but true about our Judicial system. Don’t get me wrong, I wouldn’t choose to live any where else but the good ole USA, but facts are facts.
Why do people like Melanie Morgan and others choose to post their real names on here? The plain TRUTH is they have GUTS! Yep, they could be sued, but what for? Is the TRUTH slander and defamation? Or, is paying a Lawyer to hound someone for saying the TRUTH how one wins, simply because they have a big wallet, fattened by less than sterling business tactics and practices. How absolutely disgusting this is.
I chose to stop doing business with these people; I said nothing, just quit. When asked why I quit by a few people, I told the TRUTH. As a result, I was bullied and threatened by people I can only label as both bullies and thugs, in my opinion. There is an example of good morals for you, NOT. I will tell you Pontius Pilate would have been nicer to me.
Years ago, a business who had a lawsuit served on them by these bullies (look up the Grand Rapids Michigan hearing) called me after getting wind of what happened to me. You know what INQUISITIVE, I asked them not to subpoena me, not to make me testify, because I had been threatened with total ruin by the thug brigade, and I caved. I told them I had a Family to support, and I had been threatened with total ruin, and these bullies had the money to make it happen, too. The company out of Grand Rapids honored my request; they didn’t have to, but they did. The operative word here is HONOR.
Looking back, I wish I had made a different choice. I was thinking at the time of my Family, and I just wanted to leave it all behind. I knew I was dealing with scary people, who have slipped off the moral train for sure. How many people could I have helped if I had sat on that stand and told the TRUTH, if I had not talked the Grand Rapids Company into not serving me with a subpoena?
So you want to know why we all don’t just honky dory, ring around the rosy, post our names? Get real, the biggest wallet carries a lot of clout, even if it is fattened with gains from the suffering of others.
Are you a plant, inquisitive? I know how this works, as I too was asked to do things on the Internet. Ask yourself, do you think normal business peeps go about worried about every little blog out on the net? Man, business must be bad to have to resort to these tactics.
The above post is based upon my opinions, and actual things I experienced.
Really SAD the type of people they are roping into this scam.
The Truth Hurts~
Thanks for having the courage to share now!
Nothing to me is more saddening than seeing the type of vulnerable and desperate people they are preying on, who seem to be incapable, but live and breath on the trust of the wrong people who can easily take advantage of them. But then who else will fall for their elusive unfair and deceptive game. Some just can’t be reached.
They simply only trust their friends 100%, they are the easiest targets for getting roped into the cult/ scam. It is unconscionable.
Hope everyone here has signed the petition and passed it on to everyone you know!
Meant to say; elusive riches….the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow…just a rigged con game.
Former Round Table nailed it…. they can only… “reshuffle the deck”… Misleading enough… they always claimed it was a level playing field…and yet the top are allowed to “reshuffle the deck” and destroyed groups on a whim.
Thank God we are OUT and our eyes were opened to the evils….couldn’t be more blessed now!
The Truth Hurts~
“I had been threatened with total ruin by the thug brigade,”….Unbelievable or NOT!
Who do these guys think they are?! A..mazing!
THUGs for LIFE…Living the THUG LIFE of excellence you always wanted?
I remember pastor Dickie, the freezes, Zimmermans, haugens, grangers, and the Florence’s. I do not remember Bobbie Dickie, the peters, taste, chuck Goestschel, and the crawfords. That is why I am here because I was in the old business and went power player but quit just after. But before all the stuff happened with all of you. I quit for more personal reasons because of my upline was a very bad person. I still have all the old tapes and looked through them and wondered, where the hell did all these top leaders go??? One or two gone I can understand but 10-20 gone I didn’t understand.
I don’t think anyone “owns” LIFE and I think everyone, even Orrin is suppose to follow the P & P’s. I think there is an outside third party enforcer of the P & P’s. I am not gullable enough to think there aren’t favorites within the business tho. These questions will all be answered when I speak with my lawyer.
I do understand how much of a scam the old business was in the old days. But if they truly are goin to make the changes they say they are then I also see how good this business can be. Time will tell but “rumors” are that they are changing the pay plan as I described above. And “rumors” are also that they are achieving this by doing away with the distributor profit sharing portion is how that is happening. Time will tell. If they don’t make those changes then you better believe I am out. I do not agree with the way the “system” part of the business is handled! I do agree with the product part of the business. I will be explaining all of this with my lawyer.
My “agenda” is to simply see both sides of the story. That is it. I have already apologized to Mrs Morgan personally about the question I had asked her about being sued. I did not mean for that to be taken out of context. I just thought that if nothing happens with her then maybe everyone needs not worry about lawsuits. Simply put, I AM NOT A PLANT. I thought I have already made that clear. I came here because I had questions that I believe only you guys could answer. I got those answers and I truly do thank you. But now I feel like I have to defend myself for some reason although I feel like I’ve done nothing wrong. I truly am very sorry for all the pain you all have been through. The end result will be with what lawyers advise. One again thank all of you for taking time to speak with me. If you want, when I do speak with my lawyer would you like for me to share his advise with all of you?
Inquisitive – How can you honestly believe that the problems are in the past? Have you even read this site? The problems are getting worse. When you claim to have gone Power Player, things were much better ethically and morally than they are now. Not even in the same league.
You say you left because your upline was such a bad person. I don’t think it can get any worse than the leaders of LIFE. They are the most deceptive, dishonest people I have ever met.
And no, there is no 3rd party looking after things. Orrin is the master. He orchestrates things behind the scenes. Everyone knows – suck up to Orrin and whatever you do – don’t cross Orrin. He claims to be transparent while he’s on stage. But behind the curtain, you have no idea how dishonest this crew is.
Yes, I would like you to share what your attorney says. And if you truly are not a plant, leave your attorney’s name and contact info. This way you can still keep your identity hidden. But we will know you are not really a plant for Orrin the way many of us used to be.
Trust me, there defintely are worst people then them roaming this planet.
I have never personally met any worse people in my lifetime. The carnage they have left behind of thousands and thousands of lives of people who wasted tens of thousands of dollars and lost years of time and memories with their kids is horrible. Not to mention the bankruptcies, lost friends and depression these scamsters have caused to thousands of people. Far more people have been devastated by this crew than have hit the PC level.
Yes, there are worse people on this planet. Let me think…Ted Bundy, Charles Manson, The Green River Killer, BTK, Jack the Ripper, and more.
Inquisitive, if you are not a plant, do you not see what you are saying? Let us examine..
You are going to talk to your Lawyer..WHY? Why spend money on a Lawyer (all the ones I know start at a ripe $270 per hour) talking abut a business that by your own words you say had problems in the past. This makes no sense..that would be like many of us wanting to buy or start a biz then saying oh oh..something smells.
You mention there are worse people on the Planet..I agree, hence my helpful list above.. Again, are you saying because there are worse people it’s OK to do business with people of dubious character? Huh?
I hope you are not a plant; if you aren’t listen to what we’re trying to say to get your head out of the clouds here.
This is based upon my opinions and my sad experiences.
Inquisitive~
I know you are struggling and TRUST your best friend, that is how they and cults work it, but your friend is being smoked just like you, and I know it is hard for you to see and understand the passion behind these good people on here, they are trying to help you understand they KNOW and the reasons and depth of how corrupt these guys. They truly care and don’t want anyone EVER to experience what they have. Eventually you will see that, we had to do the same.
It really isn’t about the ‘information/ product’ nor not even as much about the horrid business model ( all though that pay plan sucks worse than Amway) but you for some reason will not allow yourself to see that it is about the TOP (mis) Leaders who are leading you (because you are caught believing and trusting your friend) and they could care less about you, watch who cares when you leave. Nor can they be trusted, remember your friend is under that same influence and probably ‘wants’ to believe it as bad as you.
But then how could we expect you to know what we know, you have never been there, seen, and know what we all know or been up close and very personal to Orrin and other PC. And if you knew what we knew, you would do what we do and then you would run. But your choice.
Step back away from the control, don’t believe everything and trust blindly as you are now, trust your gut. I challenge you stop listening to CDs and clear your head, then use your common sense. You already know it doesn’t add up, (you are living on false hope) so logically think and put your trust in yourself,….
You already KNOW you are building it for them, it is NOT your business.
You already KNOW they manipulated the LOS and destructed teams.. (PEOPLE)
You already KNOW they are hiding things and not disclosing the pay plan info.
You already KNOW you have to be voted in & out for any reason!
Can you see why people are having a hard time with your comments? I do not want you to feel bad, because I know how the cult messes with you.
People here are trying to help you 🙂 I hope you find your way out soon, it will save you from a lot of future suffering, loss, and pain.
@All – Let’s give @Inquisitive the benefit of the doubt here. Provide him or her with your list of questions for the attorney and let’s see what kind of answers come back.
Inquisitive – giving you the benefit of the doubt – I do agree with Melanie. Nothing wrong with your best friend. They have been deceived too. That is how the whole scam has been able to grow. People feel guilty for not trusting a friend who is just passing along info they have been told. You are made to feel like a terrible unloyal friend for questioning someone you know and trust.
The problem is that your friend is not the actual source of the information. They are just passing it along as it was told to them. Then once you are in, even when you do start to notice some inconsistencies with what is being told, you feel so guilty that you end up not saying anything to all those innocent people in the room. As you start realizing more and more lies are being told, you end up feeling trapped because you have already alienated those close to you who are not a part of the scam.
I strongly encourage you to read this site thoroughly. Read the article on the P & P. Read the bankruptcies in great detail. Read the 50 questions to ask. Then run all this past your attorney.
Once your attorney sees the P & P, they will let you know its time to run. My only hope is that you will do the right thing and not leave quietly. Let this friend that your trust know the truth.
As a matter of fact, I encourage you to try and get this friend to give you 2 hours of their time to sit with you and read the articles I mentioned. Isn’t that fair for a true friend? If they expect you to sit through 2 hours of an Open Meeting every Tuesday to hear ‘information to make an informed decision’, then it is only fair for them to spend 2 hours with you going through details of this site ‘to get more information for this informed decision’. Tell them “Wouldn’t any person looking into a potential business want to make an informed decision with information from people who both succeeded and people who left a traditional business?”
Inquisitive~
Ask your attorney,
1)How much control do you have over what they pay YOU, decisions, etc.. or IF they have to pay you? Ask if you have a right to leave anytime with “YOUR family and friends” YOU put in and all who is underneath you and if anyone has a right to manipulate YOU & YOUR downline, anytime they feel like it?
2) Is “your business”…. PROTECTED from being taken from you after you have done the work and brought paying people in?
3)What if someone in your household or family sees it for what it is or thinks they are a scam and voices their opinion, can they “take your business and all your money? Can they fire you? 🙂
4) Do you have rights to the “PASSIVE, RESIDUAL ON-GOING, WILL-ABLE INCOME for the rest of your life, as long as you have numbers/people in “their system” They still tell you this or imply it right?
5) What about; Do you have a right to KNOW and do they have to tell you exactly HOW they pay you (the formula).
6) Is it legal for them to hide or not disclose that people get paid in the TEAM?
7) Can they ” force you to buy a certain amount of “product” per month, like $600 to continue to get paid ( not just your $50 per month) once you hit a certain level or any level?
8) Ask your Attorney If HE would personally get involved with a pay to play MLM “business”.. where 95- 99% of the people make their money off their downline and LOSE money or without knowing how he got paid in LIEF or could only get paid if he was “voted in” in TEAM (judged by loyality) by your upline, downline, or who ever they allow….make sure you explain your upline ALREADY is getting paid from you and your downline but also would likely benefit even more financially if you DIDN’T get voted in and know your upline, (including the PC) downline, crossline, everyone is your competitors! 🙂
I have some questions for you, Inquisitive.:)
Does LIFE and TEAM offer you benefits; such as matching you in 401K, or any retirement, medical, perscription and dental insurance, death benefits, paid vacations, paid sick leave, or what if someone in your family (like spouse) becomes deathly ill and you can’t “work” the hours (someone? thinks you should), can they “take your business away.” What if they get paranoid and think you aren’t loyal, what do they do to people they think are not loyal?
When can you retire or will you get paid off you “members” and “customers” when you decide you are making what you want to “retire?” 🙂 Do they pay you a pension? lol
Thank you for those questions. I will be sure to ask them. When I meet with him I will be asking them in a way that also is not bias either. Strictly informational. We’re all those questions geared toward the system part of the business right? The part of the business that I have already expressed concern with? The product (sales) part of the business is the part I am very intrigued by. But I will also be asking him if I am not involved with the system part of the business and I am involved with only the sales part if somehow I can have my business taken away or “fired”. Obviously they don’t offer any “benifits” that I am aware of. I believe they offer paid vacations though. I wouldn’t be building this business for benifits. I am currently self-employed and I don’t offer benifits either. There are plenty of “jobs” that don’t offer benifits. People don’t build business for the pension do they? Thank you for the help. I will be writing all of your questions down and I will let you know what his advice is. 🙂
Inquisitive: “Space hampster – Yes I would like to know. Thank you :)”
I was only in for six weeks so my experience is quite different than those who were involved quite deeply. The short version, I joined in a blink of an eye and left in a blink of an eye. Here’s a post I made back in March when things were quite fresh and my mind was still spinning:
Here’s a bullet list of reasons I don’t approve of the MLM LIFE.
– They rely on hype to get you signed up: I was lead along. Do you think gathering others credit card and social insurance numbers (Social Security) in a coffee shop is the sign of a legit business? Those are important bits of private information I gave out too freely in a public space. It scared me after I realized how easily I gave up that information.
– The LIFE products: Self help is self help. You can find all you need in the library or the internet for free.
– Friendship and money: Building communities, it is an admirable goal. Unfortunately when large groups of people and money are mixed together it breeds a situation where the few will prey on the majority. Like I said the building communities thing is awesome, it should just be non-profit.
– It creates tension with family and friends: Right here would be the highest reason I left. I wanted to become closer to my family, not have a wedge driven in further. This leads to my next point.
-You have to lie: Why was it so difficult for me to make phone calls to set up meetings? Why was so much tension being created between my parents and myself? You had to follow the script, you couldn’t simply tell them the reason you wanted to meet. I did not believe the LIFE Business was a good money making opportunity. It required me to lie to myself to make the calls. I had to abuse others trust in me to get them to the meetings. It should not have been that difficult.
– Money, money, money: Books like “The Millionaire Next Door” and “The Richest Man in Babylon” are recommended reading. Well, I read them. This lead me to a contradiction. Every LIFE gathering you are typically bombarded with the idea of a high consumption lifestyle, the exact opposite of what these books promote. The Woodwards million dollar mansion does not click with me at all. Promoting such things I can see only leading to the wrong type of people rising up in the organization.
– What is Leadership?: Leadership is a hug part of the Team/LIFE business. The overall message appears to be to aim to the top. One has to ask, is that true leadership? While I’m not overly versed in the bible, isn’t there a part where Jesus washes the feet of his apostles? He puts himself beneath all others, that’s something to think about.
Of course all this is just my opinion and not the only way to believe. The same can be said for LIFE, there are other opportunities out there. I personally believe there are far better opportunities than LIFE out there.
Inquisitive:
I do think it’s great you want to focus on only on the retail side, if I stayed in that’s the direction I would have attempted. From you I get the impression you like to be self directed and honest. Here’s some questions I’d be asking myself if I were still in:
– Do I have the creative freedom over my business?
– Is the method applied by the LIFE business the best way promote retail sales? Am I making as many sales as I think I should be? If not, am I able to voice and implement my ideas as how to improve retail sales?
– LIFE is all about building communities, in this community is a wide range of people with different skill sets. Since there’s always room for improvement, am I able to work with them to come up with new ideas to correct any flaws in the system laid out by the PC and make LIFE stronger and more honest and respectable?
As always, I wish you the best with whatever endeavor you pursue. 🙂
Inquisitive~
You are ‘only’ interested in the “sales” side of the business, is this what you refer to as the LIFE side? When you put someone in LIFE LOS, does that person auto go into your upline (who was voted in) to the TEAM LOS?
So help me understand.. you are self employed and already “own” your own business, that you want to give up because you don’t like it (why?). and become a salesmen for ORRIN?
Trading your real “ownership of ‘your’ self-employed business to sell for Orrin and have zero control over anything; to use their deceptive and scammy and unfair practices, their 100% control over you to let them call the shots, make all the decisions without your input or consent and how much or if any they will ever pay you ? They can change anything… the pay plan payout, policies, and control the profits, and keep your “group” and “customers” and “fire” you…or get rid of you for any reason, anytime, at a whim? Makes absolutely no sense. Not to mention the “product” you can get for free at the library.
They offer you nothing except slave labor imo, no guaranteed pay, not even if you do the work and have decades and bringing thousands in “your” business, no benefits, insurance or all the other benefits and you work for them for nothing, for as long or forever replacing people (because it takes 6-7 days every week and weekend, to even come close to meeting your current income even if it is minimum wage and don’t get too excited with the maybe… 50 grand/ 9000 + 6000 (how many years & family and friends losing money) does it take to get there? And that is before expenses and taxes so it isn’t even close to 50 grand How many family and friends and how much money and time (realistically) will it take YOU to get to 9000 = 6000 and how much will you currently with their pay make now, not what might be, maybe, in the future?
btw~ I brought up the “benefits” of a JOB because that is what they USE to compare how much “better” they are…
Former Round Table said it best: “you are nothing more than an at-will employee without any benefits.” So why give up what you have?
Do they (the Plan Shower) intentionally “use” their personal slave-JOB stories (i.e oh how bad, bad, bad….JOBS are..the lack of benefits, insecurity, don’t PAY them enough, boss makes all the money, that’s the real pyramid.. (use stop thinking techniques= “objection handling” for the “Pyramid Scheme” objection that you hear over and over when building Orrin’s business, LOOK how bad unemployment is,- go stp, look how bad college is..-go stp.. you will never go anywhere in your job or college degree (but a bunch of debt and a plague on the wall)…JOB are for losers that is the message..
Did you know they use that to manipulate people? another slimy and unethical technique… this to done to “convict (manipulate) the prospect”…is that moral?, It is to get them to sign on the dotted line..and see they have to get in their MLM because they ARE the ONLY ANSWER to all of your life problems , your way out of your miserable JOB.
Yes, Yes they do and always have, “to convict”…that is their “training”. It is done that way so the prospect and followers will think what they are doing (JOB is bad they are good, JOB means to them, Just Over Broke and you ALWAYS will be) they want you to believe that it is so bad and they offer so much more? Not comparing apples to apples….not even close, not in pay, not in benefits, not even in hours. Especially when 95-99% never make a profit. But yet they continue to use it and criticize, condemn, and complain about how bad JOBS and your Bosses are…and jobs are just dead ends and basically for losers.
So, if they are about “offering” BETTER, and don’t offer at least the making even a minimum wage job, and hours worked for I and benefits; then why do think they compare themselves with and need to use it to manipulate the prospect?
How long do they tell you it takes to be “successful” = money to them, (financially free, making a profit, you never hear them mention the word PROFIT referring to “your business”, do you because it is so rare it is a oxymoron for and “all-in” and majority, and they know it! And you will be flat out going in the hole, massive debt, for however long it takes…3-5 years?…10,000 hours?
You can tell me you want to approach (Orrin’s) business through sales but do you really believe that is going to work…first that is far from the norm if you will even be able to “sell” the product that everyone can get for a lot less… the sales won’t last, and even if you get a sale or two, your team will lose, lose, lose.. I will never be convinced they are “sales” focused..some business owner might get their ’employees’ (out of fear of displeasing the boss and feeling like they might lose their job) or might even pay to have those “costumers” out of the “bosses” pockets…at no costs for your employees, either way that is not willing customers is this what the business owners are doing?… and I have zero faith anyone’s Life business would be based on majority sales. They are a recruiting business self-consumption.. internally buying from themselves. I would never personally take their word about anything, without seeing and knowing.
Who do they call legit “customers?”
Greetings friends. I am in the middle of composing my recent experience with Life Leadership and realized it was going to be a (too?) long entry. So first I’m posting this summary version to spare anyone from having to peruse the whole book! In short:
I was recently approached about the big opportunity. Though I knew I was not interested, I agreed to go to a meeting. I left with a box of CD’s and a book that I knew I wouldn’t read/hear and I also knew that it meant a follow up meeting. So instead of reading the textbook they gave me, I headed to google and found this blog.
I want to take this opportunity to extend my appreciation to the contributors here. Because I was in the middle of dealing with this on a personal level, the information here was both illuminating and FASCINATING. I spent more hours on the site than I thought humanly possible. It motivated me to agree to a follow up meeting just for the opportunity to discuss some of my ‘concerns’ with my friends new mentor, and do it with my friend there.
If you are interested in the gory details I will post the long version soon.
And again, thank you.
A little over a week ago I got a call from a friend that I have not been in touch with for at least a year. He is one of the pastors at a local church my wife and daughter attended regularly for many years. I attended…occasionally…and that’s where I met and befriended Mr. P.
A couple of years ago my wife and I were invited to dinner at Mr. P’s house. When we arrived we learned that it was more than dinner and there was a pitch presentation for Pre-paid legal and some identity protection mlm. I survived it without incident but, obviously, my respect level for Mr. P was diminished.
So when I got a voice message last week simply saying ‘hey, call me back’, without any indication of the purpose for the call (after a year of no contact), my radar started beeping. But I called back. We caught up on things for a bit and then…he informed me that he had been looking for a mentor in his life for quite a while and had found one. He told me he had read ‘the best book on leadership’ he had ever encountered (launching a leadership revolution). He said he would really like me to meet this new mentor. Before I knew it I was agreeing to attend a meeting the following evening where I could hear all about a business opportunity. Even though I was already 110% sure I wasn’t interested in the ‘opportunity’ I agreed to go, mostly out of curiosity. After I said yes I asked him if it was an mlm business. He answered, ‘it has some of those elements but it is unlike anything I have ever seen’. I told him I already knew, beyond doubt, that I would not be successful in an mlm business. He said it was very difficult to get into it over the phone. I already knew what that answer meant and I was already disappointed that he was treating our relationship so carelessly. I told my wife I really didn’t want to go. She said then don’t. I said what the heck, I don’t mind spending a couple hours with Mr. P and I’m curious. So I went.
We arrived at the hotel conference room 30 minutes early (ugh). They asked me to register when I walked in. I ignored them. As I waited for the show to begin, I noticed that there was a flip chart standing at the front of the room. It was the IDS. So I studied it for about 10 minutes. I had to keep re-reading because I couldn’t believe what I was seeing. I thought, have the other people here (I estimate 70-80 people) SEEN this? Do they know what it says!? I wanted to look around to see if there were cameras. Maybe I was on some hoax show and somebody would jump out and say ‘gotcha’! I mean, right there at the front of the room was all the information a thinking person needed to know how RIDICULOUS this ‘opportunity’ was. I was bewildered.
So the presentation took place (Mr. P’s mentor was the speaker), complete with standing ovation at the introduction of the speaker. Mr. P also invited someone else and he was sitting next to me. I noticed he started to jump up with the rest of the crowd and then stopped himself. I hoped it was because he noticed the other mark (that’s me) didn’t budge. There were also a couple of occasions where the real big shots were mentioned and I noticed the remarkable level of adoration expressed. Inappropriate levels of adoration, it seemed.
I found the presentation to be borderline absurd. The explanation of why it’s not a pyramid scheme being some circles drawn on top of circles with some incoherent description of communities and teams. I literally had no idea what he was talking about. It wasn’t even a good try.
At the intermission and the end I immediately made myself scarce by walking around the hotel just to avoid being asked what I thought. I wasn’t sure I could trust myself to offer a civil reply. But, eventually, I had to come back into the room because I had agreed to ride with Mr. P to the show (yes, that tactic). I sat in the back of the room for about 10 minutes while Mr. P worked the other mark but eventually decided I needed to make my presence known as a reminder that I was owed a ride home (it was pushing 11pm by then). And wouldn’t you know it, the moment I stood up, there was the mentor. ‘So what did you think?’ Um, not much. ‘Ah’, he said, ‘so not really for or against, more neutral?’ More against, I said. He wanted to know why. I pointed him to the IDS. He made some remarkably poor attempt to address that and then handed me a box with a book and CD’s, ensuring me that would clear it up. For some reason my hand said yes I there I was, holding the box, and knowing this meant ‘follow up’.
On the way home Mr. P wanted my thoughts. I told him the truth. I told him about the IDS. I told him it was obvious to me that the entire model was built around cycling in suckers for the sole purpose of enriching a very few at the top. I told him it was clear to me that the only thing being offered to ALMOST EVERYONE else was the opportunity to waste time and money before eventually leaving discouraged and less rich. Please note that all of this up until this point was before I had ever heard of AMTHRAX or the amazing stories on this blog. It was the next morning that I discovered you fine people. And after spending MANY hours perusing this blog, I decided I was VERY interested in a follow up meeting with Mr. P and his mentor.
But I realize this is already way too long for most so I will relate my follow up experience in a future post.
@bewildered – thanks for sharing your story.
Good stuff, can’t wait for the next episode.
Bewildered – Can’t wait for the follow-up.
A dedicated post has been created with @Bewildered’s story. Please visit that post to leave comments for him.
Network marketing pay plans reward you for results. You need to be effective or you don’t get paid that much. Pretty simple stuff.
Another way to word it: You get rewarded for results, not effort.
That’s great in theory Nick, which means absolutely nothing because we all know now ” in practice” , the very select few at the TOP get those sweetheart deals , they are also able to manipulate to rank and awarded numerous open “spots” available to the very select few, and other undisclosed unfair practices.
NOt to mention at any time they can take your “results” from you and if truth was told can’t they manipulate the pay plan also, and vote you out regardless of your “results…. I know so….just read the P&P’s . Oh and you might want to look up the lawsuit Kevin Thompson has going on right now where he is representing a distributor.
So that is very misleading, it is not based on results.
Nick~
You could be naïve and just “repeating” the propaganda that you and the rest of us heard 10’s of thousands of times, or you could be here with a full understanding, and believe it just like we did.
Do you also repeat wrongly: “It is NOT a pyramid scheme because you can make more $$ than Orrin Woodward or your upline?” Which first off is NOT even close to the definition of a pyramid scheme, according to the FTC and others. (Do your research and get the real definition, their definition is to distract you from the truth and another false statement.
Now consider all those “sweet deals” and who controls the $$/pay plan and downline and those spots they can manipulate, the other things I mentioned…do you really believe you will EVER make more $$ than Orrin, like they say?? Again it is all to get you to “believe” it is “fair” (based on your results) and to get the prospect and YOU to stop questioning!!!!
We also heard thousands of times “It is a level playing field” and EVERYONE has the same opportunity”….by now you should be getting it…..I fortunately can clearly see it now… LIES, LIES, half-truths= LIES… Deception is the hallmark….just like all cons ‘perform’.
Don’t believe me…research as many MLM’s as you can, compare the propaganda they use! And especially pay attention to WHY the ones that have been shut down by the FTC for being a pyramid schemes! Watch American Greed,….you will get educated…. White-collar and MLM and other scams seem to be the crime of the day.
Nick- Are you involved with TEAM LIFE?
Nick~
You / or your wife?,,,, happened to be involved in the Beachbody MLM. 🙂
I HATE Team!!! I am about 15 years old and parents have been doing this “business” since I was about 11. My dad also was in it when I was really little, but my biological mom made him stop. This Team thing tore my parents away from their kids. They would say “it’s going to help us in the long run” “if you want us to stop your basically saying I will never achieve my dreams” “you don’t get any of the money once we are billionaires” They would go out all the time to seminars and leave us home alone. I used to be so close to my dad, but when he started this business he didn’t have time to spend with me anymore. They would always complain about money issues and we would have to give up many extracurricular activities so they could buy stupid stuff on this business. Because of this business my parents miss my track meets, or orchestra concerts, basketball games, art shows, ect. Team tore my family apart they made my parents believe they were going to have the perfect life. I wish this Team thing was never invented. I want my parents back and thanks to Team we will always be apart. I rarely even talk to my dad one on one anymore. If it keeps getting worse I don’t see my dad and I dancing at my wedding, heck they will probably have something better to do.
Please if you are planning on joining Life DO NOT DO IT. Think about the impact it will have on your family. Think about your kids. Are you willing to be apart from them 6+ days a week. Are you willing to make them fend for themselves and hope they will take care of each other, or that the oldest will make sure the kids get on the bus in time for school and be there waiting at the bus stop at the end of the day to walk them home. Are you willing to see you child’s grades drop in school because they don’t have a parent constantly nagging them all the time. Are you willing to see your children turn to drugs and alcohol because they have depression and don’t feel compfortable talking to you anymore. (Not me) Are you willing to completely ruin your child’s life to the point where they refuse to talk to you anymore. I really hope your are n willing to do that. Please don’t join life. I wish my parents would have known the truth but I guess they still can’t figure it out.
You were brave to post this Lauren. Maybe you made someone stop and think about how precious their children are and how fleeting are the days the parents get to spend with them. I’m sure there are many readers of this sight who would wish for that time back. We will keep your family in our prayers. I’m sure there are many more children out there who feel just like you. Sometimes it only takes one voice…
Lauren, I hope things turn round for you very soon. Your comment should be required reading for everyone in LIEF, but unfortunately Orrin and Chris would probably just laugh about it while they check their latest bank account statement.
Wasn’t one of the “F”‘s supposed to be family? I wish your parents would remember that.
On trying to find a silver lining in a dark cloud, it is good to know that you will not fall into the same MLM trap that many young people find themselves. You’ve learned early. Keep your head up and keep the faith.
I’m the bil of Dan Hawkins. My wife,(Dans oldest sister) walked out on me September 23rd, filed for divorce in October, and is currently awaiting settlement. Got tired of spending (investing) $1000 a month for near no return, going to look to cash in on the life business…