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Paging Orrin Woodward – IAB Shut Down by the FTC and Leadership Guru Status Revoked

January 9, 2013

Two pieces of news to share with you today that follow up on my investigation into several leadership awards that Orrin Woodward and his followers repeat constantly as proof of his purported leadership greatness.

Leadership Guru Title Revoked

The Leadership Gurus website is being relaunched in 2013, and Orrin Woodward and Chris Brady have been disqualified and removed from the gurus list. Here’s the quote from the Global Guru Criteria (screenshot taken from the site at the time of this post’s publication) section:

And, when we added an IP address checker to our system this year, two Guru candidates listed in the top 15, Orrin Woodward and Chris Brady, who have had substantial votes since 2010, were disqualified and removed from the list because more than 98% of their votes came for only three IP addresses, meaning that only three people voted for them over and over again. This accounted for almost 2000 of their votes.

Clearly, the people responsible for the Leadership Gurus site learned that they’ve been hoodwinked by Orrin Woodward, Chris Brady, and their followers. Good for them!

IAB Scam Shut Down

Several months ago, the Independent Association of Business (IAB) was shut down by the Federal Trade Commission. You heard that right. The same organization1 that awarded Orrin Woodward the top leadership award for 2011 was charged by the FTC as having bilked “millions of dollars from thousands of consumers by tricking them into buying what they believed was comprehensive health insurance, when in fact they had paid for something decidedly less.”

Let’s take a look back at some of the waxing-poetic blogs posts by Orrin Woodward and his followers. Thanks to Google, here are various search results for “Orrin Woodward IAB“.

TEAM and The LIFE Business members are going to have a fun time trying to scrub their websites of any mention of the IAB. I’d like to highlight a few choice quotes from these blogs (bold emphasis mine):

Orrin Woodward talks about the award he got from the IAB

Orrin Woodward talks about the award he got from the IAB

In hindsight, these quotes from Chris Brady are classic:

In a world now ablaze with information, we are bombarded by companies and individuals who present themselves as being something more than their actual substance. We also witness the obscure, bizarre, disgruntled, unprincipled, and undisciplined having access to a voice louder than merit would bestow.

This is why it is tremendously refreshing to see that sometimes the exact opposite is true. Occasionally some individual or organization dedicated to excellence and toiling upward far from the hot light of personal glory sometimes receives recognition that is due, and perhaps even over due. This occurs most justly when it has not been sought either directly or indirectly.

Yesterday I received an innocuous email seemingly no different from the other 100 that come in on a daily basis. I opened it with no more anticipation than one opens a phone bill. But as I read through its contents I was warmed by its announcement that my friend and business partner Orrin Woodward had received the prestigious IAB Top Small Business Award Top Leadership Website for 2011. IAB is the International Association of Businesses, a worldwide membership of business owners more than 1 million members strong. For this year’s award, Orrin Woodward was up against the likes of leadership giants such as Jim Collins, John Maxwell, Stephen Covey, Ken Blanchard, Tony Robbins, and Jack Welch, among others. It is an incredible honor just to be among such icons of the industry, but to finish first is absolutely impressive.

Sorry, Chris, I for one would not want to be recognized by an organization that got shut down by the FTC for fraudulent business practices.

Second, Eric Blomdahl, who is currently suing former TEAM member, Raquel Peters, had this to say about the IAB award:

Although this is an incredible individual accomplishment for Orrin Woodward, it is equally as incredible for everyone associated with LIFE and TEAM. With every level of national recognition and every prestigious award that Orrin Woodward receives, the credibility of everyone associated with Orrin strengthens; while the credibility of the critics diminish.

Eric has it backwards. With every fact revealed on this site, the credibility of everyone associated with Orrin diminishes; while the credibility of the critics’ strengths.

Finally, Even Mr. Steadfast (a.k.a Anti-Amthrax) read what Tim Marks had this to say about the IAB:

Since the tomato-throwers can’t knock that Orrin actually made the NY Times best-sellers list, they focus their attack instead on his other accolades such as his leadership award with the IAB. Again, the Amway drones can’t deny that Orrin won the IAB award; so, instead, they attempt to knock the IAB itself. I’m amazed anyone would be confused on the IAB’s history or credibility. Here’s a blast of truth: the IAB is such a respected organization that in 2002 it was honored by the Vice President of the United States for 20 years of outstanding service to its massive business membership base.

There’s a reason why the phrase, “Where there’s smoke, there’s fire,” is so popular. I sincerely hope that we don’t hear something along the lines of, “By golly, we were scammed by these IAB scammers. How could we have known?” from those in TEAM/LIFE. Uh, that’s what’s called “doing your homework.”

Here’s what I predict is going to happen over the next few days:

  1. Orrin Woodward will remove all references to the IAB award from his website. He will definitely remove it from his blog’s bio section (“In 2011 Orrin was awarded the prestigious Independent Association of Business (IAB) Leader of the Year Award.”).
  2. A directive will come down from the highest levels of TEAM and The LIFE Business to not mention the IAB or the leadership gurus award ever again.

Unfortunately for them, Google remembers everything. To recap:

  1. Is Orrin Woodward a leadership guru? Not anymore!
  2. Is the Independent Association of Businesses a prestigious and credible organization? According to the FTC, it was a scam!
  3. Should we take the Orrin Woodward’s Top Leader from the IAB seriously? No!

Here are some links to additional information regarding the shutdown of the IAB:

1 The FTC preliminary injunction states that the owners of the IAB operated several companies with similar sounding names. IAB Marketing Associates LP, Independent Association of Businesses, HealthCorp International Inc., JW Marketing Designs LLC, International Marketing Agencies LP, International Marketing Management, LLC, and Wood LLC. These companies were run by James Wood and members of his family.

[Editor’s note: an earlier version of this article attributed a quote to Mr. Steadfast (a.k.a Anti-Amway). The quote was actually from Tim Marks.]

  1. Mike Collins permalink
    January 9, 2013 8:17 am

    OH MAN!!!! Hahahahahaha Orrin!!! Is this true Orrin??? Hahahahahaha!!! How does it feel Orrin to know that your empire is crumbling under your feet? Your empire built on lies and deception CAN NOT STAND…not to mention your business model is a complete joke!!!

    Tell us Orrin….what’s next for you and your crew of bandits??? Inquiring minds want to know.

  2. Mike Collins permalink
    January 9, 2013 8:28 am

    Amthrax: this is your best post EVER!!!! Thanks for all your hard work!!

  3. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    January 9, 2013 8:37 am

    Amthrax: Best thread ever!!! what a hoot!!!!!!!!!!! LMBFOAO!!! And guess what? Don’t quote me here, but this IAB…I think, if I remember correctly, even ol’ D. Yager was a member of that, too, when I had looked him up a few months ago.

  4. January 9, 2013 8:53 am

    Aaannnddd BOOM! Goes the dynamite.

    Woody and his minions just got roasted, toasted, and turned into a nutritious breakfast with yet another blog post.

    How they can possibly be taken seriously escapes me completely.

  5. freedomhaha permalink
    January 9, 2013 9:02 am


  6. January 9, 2013 9:07 am

    This is hands down the greatest thing I’ve seen all day! That is HILARIOUS about the leadership guru website AND the IAB!! “Prestigious” my butt!!

    Amthrax, you are wonderful. Thank you for sharing this TRUTH!!!!!

  7. January 9, 2013 9:07 am

    Amthrax, great job!

    A couple of things. Seeing as well all know that scrubbing will undoubtedly be implemented by these con artists can you capture those pages before he has them scrubbed clean and post them as an addendum to this page, as a post or just something for posterity if you haven’t done so already?


    We all oughta write NYT publishers about this phoney and provide FTC’s evidence to augment that with a clear view to have this title re-assessed revoked (In fact I am doing that shortly after this).

    FTC and FBI should be next. The way to get these agencies to act is for many voices to complain about the same scam especially those who have been directly affected by them. The scambags can be taken out of operation for the public’s safety!

  8. January 9, 2013 9:13 am


    I hope you will post captured images of these pages on your FB page. Also can somebody give a heads up to the FB Team Scam page owners, they should post the same pages as well. It’s a high time the spurious character of this phoney Orrin Woodward and TEAM speak for itself before all and sundry on their way out!

  9. January 9, 2013 9:28 am

    I’ve taken screenshots of some of the TEAM/LIFE blog posts about the IAB award. For redundancy, I suggest others do the same.

  10. January 9, 2013 9:33 am


  11. January 9, 2013 9:33 am

    ExAmbot – There’s no doubt that Orrin and Chris’ LLR book got on the NY Time’s Business Best Sellers list for two months in 2007, but how they got there is the key.

    November 4, 2007 NY Times Business Best Sellers

    December 2, 2007 NY Times Business Best Sellers

    You’ll note the dagger (†) symbol next to their name, which indicates “that some bookstores report receiving bulk orders.” A number of books on the list also have the same symbol. I’m investigating what exactly that means and the ways authors can work their way onto the list. Stay tuned.

    Until that post comes out, let’s keep the focus in these comments on how the revocation of the Leadership Gurus award and the shut down of the IAB affects The LIFE Business. Thanks.

  12. No Team For Me permalink
    January 9, 2013 10:13 am

    Just my opinion, but if I’d have to place my bet, I’d bet the 3 IP addresses were from orrin, Chris & Tim

  13. freedomhaha permalink
    January 9, 2013 10:30 am

    As if we needed more evidence here it is in black and white. This post makes me so happy because it will save so many people from suffering like we have. 🙂 This makes me hopeful that more actions may be taking place in the future. Also, I can’t wait for the NYT Best Seller post.

  14. Mark permalink
    January 9, 2013 10:30 am

    AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! Pow right in the kisser! There goes what little credibility they ever had! Right out the window 🙂

  15. MemoryLame permalink
    January 9, 2013 11:07 am

    LOVE this, Amthrax!

    I have to say though you missed the 3rd thing that they are going to do. Orrin is going to craft a blog post, where he doesn’t mention the IAB directly. Instead, he will spin something akin to an Aesop’s fable, where he is the poor victimized chicken and IAB the sly fox. (Ala, Figures Don’t Lie or that shameless post about rehiring Halstrand, where he indirectly slams Robert Dickie’s management). Then the rest will repost it, mentioning how humbled they are by OW’s character, and how they wish they could be more like him one day.

    At this moment, I can’t help feeling a little vindicated for leaving this nonsense. However, I also feel incredibly saddened. There were strange cats at every level of the Team, but there were and are also SO MANY hard working, well-meaning people. There are a lot of parents who just want to provide something better for their kids and feel like they’re fighting hopelessness every day to do just that. I sincerely pray that every last one of them finds real freedom from this mess, without losing their sense of God-given purpose.

    For anyone reading this post and considering leaving the Team/Life conglomerate, please know that there is so much life for you to live outside of that mind job! You have unique talents and interests, NOT so that some pseudo-guru can convince you that if you show 15 plans a month you’ll get to enjoy them one day. God gave you those aspects unique to you so that you could use them NOW! So, use them now to be blessed to bless and care for your family, and others in need. Please don’t waste another minute, another dollar, or another mile feeling guilty you aren’t some Policy Council Member of a group that is so self deceived their only real “policy” is how they can get you to give up another mile, dollar, or minute.

  16. January 9, 2013 11:15 am

    @MemoryLame – Given the high correlation between what’s posted on this site and what gets posted on TEAM/LIFE blogs days later, I think your suggestion about Orrin’s upcoming blog post has merit!

    On the other hand, perhaps he’ll skip the blog post and share the fable from stage at the Leadership Conventions over the next two weeks.

  17. MemoryLame permalink
    January 9, 2013 11:30 am

    You’re right Amthrax. It will be “Spartacus” all over again!

  18. January 9, 2013 12:06 pm

    @MemoryLame – Many TEAM/LIFE proponents have the mistaken assumption that we are criticizing TEAM or The LIFE Business because we are jealous losers and quitters. Nothing can be further from the truth. The truth is that MLMs simply do not work for the majority of participants. We’re not poo-poo’ing their desires to have a better life for their family. We’re criticizing businesses and their leaders because of what they’ve done and what they continue to do.

    They are so many other opportunities out there that can bring either money, happiness, or both to a family. MLMs such as LIFE, Herbalife, Amway, MonaVie, etc., are not the only answer (despite what their proponents would argue). I encourage all of these people to look beyond the CD or Book of the Month and discover what else is out there. Chances are, they’ll save money, make more money, have more fun, and make more of difference.

    Over the past several years, we’ve posted about bankruptcies, leadership awards that were gamed and manipulated, awards handed out by a company deemed to be a scam by the Federal Government, deception, and outright lies. If the TEAM/LIFE faithful continue to believe that their world is flat, more power to them. After some time, you have to realize that you can’t help everyone.

  19. January 9, 2013 12:10 pm

    I think Orrin is going to have to update his Facebook cover photo in light of today’s news.

    Orrin Woodward Cover Photo on Facebook. Leadership Guru No More.

    Check out the Leadership Guru banner underneath his quote.

  20. Vogel permalink
    January 9, 2013 1:52 pm

    Well, it’s not like anyone could have anticipated such a thing; that would have required something…um…extraordinary…like…maybe looking up the IAB on the internet.

    Oh wait… never mind.

    Well done Amthrax and cheers to all! [sound of Champage cork popping]

  21. switch permalink
    January 9, 2013 1:56 pm

    😯 ………somebody….pass the popcorn.

  22. No Team For Me permalink
    January 9, 2013 2:26 pm

    Awesome job Amthrax!!!! It will be interesting how they try to spin this one. Can’t wait to see Orrin Woodward respond as he always does after he reads this site. Really hoping more of his flock come and read this article to get a better idea of all the deceit going on with Orrin Woodward.

  23. Freedomhaha permalink
    January 9, 2013 3:14 pm

    I can’t wait until the updates are made across the web and Amthrax can do an amazing job documenting those changes on here with comparison screen shots. This would also make a nice addition to the Teamline.

  24. MemoryLame permalink
    January 9, 2013 4:17 pm

    Switch! L.O.L!! Enjoy the show!

  25. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    January 9, 2013 4:53 pm

    Vogel: thanks for those links! Switch: popcorn’s all gone–make some more, quick! 🙂 :v

  26. January 9, 2013 5:56 pm

    SAWEET!!!! Great work Amthrax…as if we didn’t already know the truth. Thank you for doing the work to prove what all of us so-called quitters already knew. Keep up the good work!

  27. January 9, 2013 6:07 pm

    I wonder if Kettering University will post another article titled…”Sorry, this alum is a poser!”

  28. January 9, 2013 6:11 pm

    The last line of the link I posted above is hilarious.

    “Congratulations to Orrin Woodward and his entire leadership team for raising the bar in the field of leadership!”

    Way to raise the bar Orrin, LMAO!

  29. Brent Hansen permalink
    January 9, 2013 6:42 pm

    “Therefore whatsoever ye have spoken in darkness shall be heard in the light; and that which ye have spoken in the ear in closets shall be proclaimed upon the housetops.”

    Excellent work!

  30. Rascal Teamster permalink
    January 9, 2013 7:17 pm

    This is unbelievable. Incredible research Amthrax. Bravo Zulu.

    It’s going to be very hard for the govt to overlook this now. It can’t even be denied by the Teamunists anymore. Orrin and Chris are legitimate scammers. I don’t see how they escape this one. They fleeced people of millions pretending to be something they’re not.

    For a while I thought that we were dealing with serious delusions of grandeur. I no longer do. They’re seriously criminally minded.

    They deserve prison!

  31. Freedomhaha permalink
    January 9, 2013 7:42 pm

    I can’t wait until some bigger source picks this up. The crash of TEAM is going to be amazing. A huge reason that I joined TEAM was to make a difference, now I stay here to make even more positive of an impact.

  32. ConnieF permalink
    January 9, 2013 8:21 pm

    This is a perfect example of what my mother used to call “Hoisted on his own petard”.

  33. MemoryLame permalink
    January 9, 2013 8:22 pm

    Tonight, I really wish there was a like button on this page for comments 🙂

  34. Vogel permalink
    January 9, 2013 10:25 pm

    Raquel asked: “Vogel didn’t you also show the other award was fishy too?”

    Yup! Helped at least.

    …and add to that the jiggered bestseller list, sketchy charity, multiple DBA entities, and probably about another dozen or so documented acts of fraud and deception.

    It would appear that the every hint of suspicion about Orrin Woodward and TEAM/LIef has been entirely justified. It’s safe at this point to assume that there’s a fire burning behind every trail of smoke.

  35. TruthSeeker permalink
    January 10, 2013 3:52 am

    I see that @Michael Collins has posted a link to this post under orrin woodward’s video interview on the “Business From Home” website, (thank you Michael). I wonder how interested the author of the Forbes article “Rise to the Top” would be in knowing this information?

    Maybe even Art Jonak from the “Mastermind Event” would be interested to see that the person he has been promoting as a “guru”, is a fraud.

    This is truly monumental, like Raquel said, “Christmas in January”……

  36. TruthSeeker permalink
    January 10, 2013 4:02 am

    @das, I don’t believe that a friendly email to Kettering would hurt a thing.

  37. January 10, 2013 4:21 am

    Interesting to say the least. I feel so bad and actually sick for all the people who are continuing to spend so much money. All in the name of TEAM/LIFE. One can only hope they are able to stop the bleeding before they get too far in. I still think back to the money we “invested” and it makes me want to throw up. I suppose I could have a garage sale and sell all our tools (that continually changed and got updated so we had to buy again!!!) to be able recoup a little money we “invested” (aka threw away down the pipes)…………

  38. Rascal Teamster permalink
    January 10, 2013 4:26 am

    I was just thinking about the Mastermind Group as well. I was reading a couple tweets from Art Jonak and Randy Gage. I still follow a lot if MLM’ers on Twitter.

    You will be able to tell a lot about the character of Orrin’s associates…..Art, Oliver, Dallin, etc…..If they still keep his company after all of this fraud and deception, they probably are just jealous he’s a better worm.

  39. Rascal Teamster permalink
    January 10, 2013 5:26 am

    I was thinking that this is the equivalent of an athlete doping. Orrin’s just like Lance Armstrong. He’s guilty of electronic doping….I anticipate that being a legal term in the future.

    Maybe we can give Orrin Woodward a coveted, Lance Armstrong Of Leadership Award…..a brand new award given to the guy who best cheats his way to the top.

    I vote for Orrin Woodward and Chris Brady…..Again. Yeah, I’m a 2%’er. I voted for Orrin last year….lol.

    Maybe we can give them some kind of bonus for cheating so well together.

  40. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    January 10, 2013 5:36 am

    Rascal: I just bristled at the mention of Randy Gage’s name. Are you kidding me? He ain’t so pristine, either….not after seeing Dan Hawkins give that sick, sad sorry hateful quote of Randy’s re: poverty = murderer. There’s a reason these guys aren’t mainstream…..birds of a feather and all that kind of flocking together. I bet they’re going to do what’s always done in this country: have it hanging right in front of the masses and say it’s not there, it never happened, and all remain best budds because of $$$ connections.

  41. Rascal Teamster permalink
    January 10, 2013 5:40 am

    No I know Randy’s not. I have a cassette tape set of his from years ago. I know Randy’s character or lack thereof well. But so far, he’s not a proven criminal who scams awards.

    Just wondering if the other scammers will distance themselves from Orrin now that his scam is public info?

  42. switch permalink
    January 10, 2013 6:35 am

    Curious to know how this will turn out to be everyone else’s fault in life?… usually is right, team?

    Or maybe….all these so called “leaders” will turn the other way while orrin woodward and the clan discretely take down the IAB entries on their blogs?

    As I’ve mentioned before to someone, this reminds me of a drunk driver who took an innocent life, and trying to wipe the innocent blood away from their hands that never goes away…

  43. Mike Bickel permalink
    January 10, 2013 6:55 am

    Well – as it is written (Habakkuk 2:6-7):

    Woe to him who piles up stolen goods
    and makes himself wealthy by extortion!
    How long must this go on?’
    Will not your creditors suddenly arise?
    Will they not wake up and make you tremble?
    Then you will become their prey.

  44. freedomhaha permalink
    January 10, 2013 7:31 am

    Knowing that these awards were a product of voting I can’t believe they didn’t get the whole TEAM on there to vote. They have a big enough community to amass over 2000 votes pretty easily. Maybe it would take away from of the shine off the award if the people knew that it was just them voting it over and over.

    Also, I remember in introductions of Orrin many times saying that he was “A top 10 leadership guru in the world and the only one to mentor another leader unto the list (Brady)” He sure did mentor someone else on the list by showing him how to be a lying perverse scam artists. I am not sure how these men look themselves in the mirror after the unspeakable damage that they have done to people and families.

  45. freedomhaha permalink
    January 10, 2013 7:35 am

    As others have wrote at the top it would not hurt to reach out to anyone that associates with Orrin outside of LIFE and alert them of this information. These people have less at stake than others do inside the TEAM. One would assume that they would do whatever they could to try and help their reputation by creating separation between Orrin and themselves after this tire fire of a story.

  46. I QUIT (and glad I did) permalink
    January 10, 2013 8:26 am

    Thank you Amthrax for once again making my day! Hell this makes my week!! Logging on to find this news is absolutely exhilerating! Another brick added to Raquel’s defense wall by being removed from Owen’s. Put that in yer pipe and smoke it Owen. Tastes worse than rotten crow don’t it !!

  47. Rascal Teamster permalink
    January 10, 2013 8:26 am


    Something of this magnitude would most likely go to a class action suit with any member between the dates they determine to be able to throw their name into the case.

    At that point, we would all most likely win some award, but the real winners are the lawyers.

  48. January 10, 2013 9:08 am

    @freedomhaha – From what I understand, the IP tracker was not instituted until fairly recently. While hundreds of TEAM members probably voted legitimately in the past, it’s clear that there was also some serious ballot stuffing going on.

  49. MemoryLame permalink
    January 10, 2013 9:25 am

    The irony is that while we were on the team there was a very prevalent message among leadership to stay off the Internet and any type of media other than the book of the month and CDs. Subsequently, unless there was a directive given from stage at a major seminar and/or on a cd somewhere telling people to go online and vote, I can absolutely believe that enough people on their teams did NOT go online to vote for them.

    Furthermore, I doubt there was any such directive for people below Turbo levels at the very least, simply because they would risk too many people ending up on sites like this.

    Not to mention the fact that Orrin, as the head “leader” of this group, would never depend on the recognition of his minions for something like this! This, after all, was really the type of symbolic recognition that he needed to jump from an MV focus into LIFE after everything he put his long time faithful through. It was a way to say, “Look, all those plans you’ve shown, all that rejection you put up with, all the money you’ve spent, all that edification you gave me – now, it’s all worth it because I’m a top leadership guru now! So, you know you can trust me in this new LIFE set up!”

    They did a similar thing with recognition of lesser “leaders” right before the break from Quixtar, when the Stroh’s, Lewis’s, and Guzzardo’s “went diamond” what 6 months before? Even then it was, “The critics(aka Quixtar) of O & C can be silenced now, because obviously our fearless “leaders” know how to make this work for the little guy. Now, follow Spartacus to the Walmart of the Internet!”

  50. January 10, 2013 9:35 am

    @das and all – the Kettering University blog post announcing Orrin as the IAB Top Leader award has been taken down. Going to the link now shows a Page Not Found error. Good thing that I saved a screenshot of the page earlier today.

  51. Rascal Teamster permalink
    January 10, 2013 9:45 am


    All of this needs to be added to the timeline.

    Simply amazing….we are witnessing the dismantling of a networking dynasty…..or is it an organized crime syndicate?

    So hard to tell anymore. There are too many similarities.

    About a year ago, I stopped using Facebook and Twitter….just kind of Kay low and get off the digital radar. I’m seriously thinking about picking up the Twitter account again and start reporting this stuff.

    Is anyone else using Twitter to share this information?

  52. January 10, 2013 9:52 am

    My articles get cross-posted to Twitter. Some users on the LIFE Destructive Facebook page have been posting links to my articles occasionally on the page too. It wouldn’t hurt to have more people talking about this on Twitter and Facebook.

  53. Melanie Morgan permalink
    January 10, 2013 9:59 am


    Happy New Year to you and All! 🙂 This is just the beginning of a what I see is going to be ‘the BEST year!’

    Amthrax, Thank YOU! Your relentless effort is so appreciated! Also Thank you Vogel and the rest for all your help! Vogel… I remember seeing a picture of the ‘snake eating it’s tail’…

    The FTC is on a roll!!! The Truth is FINALLY catching them! I hope they are reading this site!!!!….Their work is made easy on this site, if they would just read it!

    They don’t have to look far or hard to find the deceptive practices, financial raping of how many Multi-millions if not billions of dollars they could protect, collect and get some back to the consumers; by holding these cheaters, liars, and fraudsters, accountable, just from this industry alone! Apply all those billions of ill-gotten gains, sheltered tax dollars to the massive government deficit, and we will be getting somewhere!!!

    I can’t remember who said it but the “best-seller” farce and revoking of that…wouldn’t be hard to prove either! There was a couple of “specified” places to place orders to.

    Amthrax..I too am looking forward to that research and post!

    All in All, this is a vindication and validation of the Truth being told, from those on here who have collectively give self-less-ly of their time, and effort…Thank You all!!

  54. Melanie Morgan permalink
    January 10, 2013 10:09 am


    I was wondering about all those places that would certainly be interested! What about Dooly, I suppose he will to “a piece” of work…on this news..haha!

    Oh, btw….Dallin is asking for “votes” for the TOP CEO of Direct Selling.

    Apparently Oh-desperate…is rubbing off! It is appalling to hear them all say they are “making” others a better them and a better America with their low class…lying, cheating, stealing, manipulation….is what is tearing the fabric of America apart…but to them it is “just business!!” and they are “changing the world!” They are the problem, not the solution!

  55. Melanie Morgan permalink
    January 10, 2013 10:10 am

    I wouldn’t be surprised if Orrin and Yes-Men don’t try and sue the IAB…as if that is going to change anything…but it is their M.O….”what-ever-it-takes”….divide, distract, divert, deny, deny, deny!!!

  56. January 10, 2013 10:14 am

    I updated the timeline with a few entries to the IAB award and the leadership guru status revocation.

  57. Melanie Morgan permalink
    January 10, 2013 10:21 am

    How do they look their children in the eyes, and themselves in the mirror??!! They are posers, fakers, cheaters, manipulators, and liars…what a disgraceful legacy and example.

  58. January 10, 2013 10:23 am

    Everyone – the quote that I had originally attributed to Mr. Steadfast (a.k.a Anti-Amthrax) was actually made by Tim Marks. Steadfast had copied and pasted the entire article, “Orrin Woodward: Whistleblower; Tomato Magnet; Top IAB Leader!” on his own blog. I have updated the post to reflect the proper attribution.

  59. Melanie Morgan permalink
    January 10, 2013 10:28 am


    Thanks and I was going to mention that I too found that page to be taken down! Oh they are going to rush to try and untarnish the tarnished?…Not going to work!!! They can’t reel in or take back what they has been done and this I am confident is not the only overexposure that will be revealed…

    Perhaps, they shouldn’t fake their either buying or cheating…if it isn’t legit…you will be found out! They say they ‘care’ about their character more than their reputation…well the evidence shows differently..more lip-service!

  60. Melanie Morgan permalink
    January 10, 2013 10:31 am


    I wouldn’t be surprised if Steadfast isn’t that same person, but I appreciate you doing what is right! Possibly more than 1 person..kinda like a split personality…hahaha!

  61. January 10, 2013 11:07 am

    FYI – Steadfast has posted a new article with the exact same title as my blog post (to dilute search engine results).

    Read his post first. It’s a doozy.

    So, let me get this straight, Steadfast. For years, Orrin and company have touted and used the Leadership Gurus award to provide legitimacy to themselves. Over the past year, they’ve done the same thing with the Orrin’s IAB Top Leader award.

    Now, you’re turning around and saying (paraphrasing here), “well, the IAB used Orrin’s good name to promote its own business.” And, you imply that you’re writing another post in which you’ll blame the Leadership Gurus site for not knowing that TEAM/LIFE members (or three of them) were stuffing the ballots for Orrin.

    Right… way to shift the blame here. Here’s the problem that Steadfast is so blind to see.

    Orrin Woodward and company used these awards to further prop themselves up in the eyes and minds of their followers. It’s impossible to count the number of times TEAM/LIFE members described Orrin (or Chris) with the words, “IAB Top Leader” or “Leadership Guru”. Jobs didn’t go around telling people that, because he was IAB’s Top Small Business Technology Award Winner, they should buy his products. As for Orrin and Chris, they did exactly that.

    Last thing. Since I like to answer questions here, the reason why I didn’t post about it three months ago is because I didn’t hear about the shut down of the IAB until a few days ago. Sometimes the most obvious reason is the real reason.

  62. Rascal Teamster permalink
    January 10, 2013 11:15 am

    Melanie, I thought the same thing. Maybe Orrin has a split personality. Maybe delusions of grandeur. I thought there had to be some medical or psychological explanation?

    Nope, now I don’t think so. I think he and the PC are 100% criminals. Now it makes more sense.

    I wonder how many of the Round Tables will have character and distance themselves from Orrin, or will they play the COWARD and go down with the ship?

    What say you, Mr. Mark Paul? You have been wise enough to not respond to any of their blogs that you suggested we all post to. You never really posted anything to your own blog and joined your boss in the Blog Wars. Was that distancing yourself then? What did Orrin always say during the desert, oh yeah, “if you lay down with the dogs, you’ll get fleas.” Starting to itch yet?

    So whatcha gonna do now, Mark? I say run……run Forrest run……and don’t look back. I really couldn’t say this before, but I can say it now. Anyone who still follows Orrin after this debacle, is either just as criminal as Orrin and Chris, or a complete flipping idiot. Your call, Mark!

  63. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    January 10, 2013 11:16 am

    Amthrax: over at the Kettering web page….one of the very few references left to OW is this blurb from the summer 2010 newsletter (under Class of 1990): “Orrin Woodward was a guest on ACES Radio Live in February. He is the founder of TEAM and author of Launching a Leadership Revolution.”

  64. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    January 10, 2013 11:27 am

    Amthrax: re: that new article that was posted by that guy which you supplied a link to….why does he think anyone’s saying that OW etal had anything to do with the IAB insurance scam? No one here ever said such a thing, did they? Instead, as a reader my take on your initial thread is: we have one group found to have been bilking millions on insurance scams bestowing an award on another questionable recipient (OW) who has now also been found stacking the winner’s deck from a different group’s leadership award, too. Sort of like guru phony butt-licking tigers chasing each others’ tails….but I never got out of it that you were trying to imply that OW was part and parcel of the IAB insurance scame….so why is that anonymous blogger?

  65. January 10, 2013 11:48 am

    @ageofwisdom51 – He’s simply trying to shift the conversation and distract us. If I had information that the IAB was soliciting TEAM members, don’t you think I would have mentioned it in the post? If Steadfast wants to engage in idle speculation, that’s his prerogative. As for me, I’ll focus on evidence and hard facts.

    Fact: Orrin Woodward and company touted the IAB Top Leader award a lot.
    Fact: Orrin Woodward, Chris Brady, and company touted their status as leadership gurus a lot.
    Fact: IAB was shut down by the FTC for milking customers out of millions of dollars.
    Fact: Leadership Gurus has removed and disqualified Orrin Woodward and Chris Brady from their list due to ballot stuffing.
    Fact: Kettering University removed the blog post announcing Orrin Woodward as IAB’s Top Leader.

    Draw your own conclusions.

    If I were Orrin (and thankfully, I’m not), I would not want to associated with a company that was just shut down by the FTC for being a scam. If he continues to point to the award as proof of his leadership, that’s his choice. Frankly, I think that would be stupid of him, but like I said, I’m not Orrin.

  66. Melanie Morgan permalink
    January 10, 2013 12:02 pm


    That comment and what I meant was one or more of the PC or others …multiple clones..pretending they are just 1 Steadfast, and have thought it was Tim Marks before that was even brought up..but I do agree with your comments.


    Lmao! This is their M.O. distract, divert, deny and divide…anything, no matter how ridiculous or blatant the world knows it is…they will claim the ‘victim’..and NEVER admit the obvious! It is like their lies, they have to tell more (distract from the obvious) and tell more, it is truly the pride before the fall!

    Any person with a half a brain can SEE…they continue to make themselves look foolishly shameful.

  67. January 10, 2013 12:07 pm

    We all know the open secret that products and/or services are incidentals in predatory, pretend MLM “industry.” As if that is not bad enough the vital question for FTC, etc is what actually does TEAM sell? Thus, it’s imperative that the snake’s head be striked conclusively once and for all, for all the destructive havoc in it’s wake and it’s sick assiduity of the same in the future!

    While this is still reeking bad enough we need to spur FTC’s attention onto it. Not through the generic email/contact form if we can help it but directly writing high level officers. Same goes for FBI, DOJ, and Consumer Financial Protection Bureau. High ranking officers need to hear from more people within a short time span to raise their focused attention onto this commercial cult. I propose they all need to hear from everyone on here asap, no less admins of NYT best seller list program. Anyone has email/s they can share, please post them here.

    In the meantime let Emily Lambert and Klaus Kneale authors of article on Orrin Woodward “Climb to the Top” hear from everyone too:- slambert at and klauskneale at


    If there’s articles out there similar to the Kettering one on Orrin Woodward / TEAM by orgs. interested in protecting their reputations post the links here and capture them before they are taken down. Sheila Adams Cowes is a person of action! One down.

  68. switch permalink
    January 10, 2013 12:09 pm

    …and a very pathetic attempt to shift the conversation his way, might I add. The dudes were busted for stacking the deck in their favor for their votes…and yet, they’re still perfectly innocent….pfffft!

    First red flag, he copies Amthrax’s headline, …

    “Paging Orrin Woodward – IAB Shut Down by the FTC and Leadership Guru Status Revoked”

    I’ll go with the FACTS. (Amthrax’s facts, that is.) 😉

  69. Melanie Morgan permalink
    January 10, 2013 12:11 pm


    I hope you didn’t take that wrong. I was referring to their tactics that they believe others are too stupid to figure them out! It is the diversion technique that is so blatant in all they do to try and desperately grasp at air to try and keep the followers blinded, they KNOW these FACTS and this exposure will wake some of them up to who they really are!

  70. Melanie Morgan permalink
    January 10, 2013 12:16 pm


    I agree 100% but if I am remembering back (without going into detail), so I could be wrong, but I think it was determined that Emily Lambert no longer works there.

  71. Melanie Morgan permalink
    January 10, 2013 12:20 pm

    “Fact: Leadership Gurus has removed and disqualified Orrin Woodward and Chris Brady from their list due to ballot stuffing.”

    IF the IAB was ‘trying’ to take advantage of Orrin Woodward hahahaha…then they certainly wouldn’t have publicly called them out and DISQUALIFIED them!!!!

  72. Rascal Teamster permalink
    January 10, 2013 12:23 pm

    “Thus, it’s imperative that the snake’s head be striked conclusively once and for all, for all the destructive havoc in it’s wake and it’s sick assiduity of the same in the future!”


    I love it when you wax poetic like that. Talk about fired up. You put “snakes head,” “strikes,” and “assiduity” in the same sentence. That’s 10 points for the first two & 50 points for the last one that the majority had to look up. You rock.

    The dog used to wag the tail, but this is definitely the tail wagging the dog….it’s awesome to see. You know….Orrin doesn’t look so impressive when he’s running.

  73. MemoryLame permalink
    January 10, 2013 12:33 pm

    Amthrax, I must say, you do an EXCELLENT job of sticking to the facts. I wish I had discovered your work a few year and several thousand dollars ago.

    As for additional lawsuits, especially class action, I frankly don’t see that this would be effective…yet. My favorite part of this debacle is that I believe it marks a stark increase in the level of desperation for greater “edification” that these guys are searching for. It seems to me that all cult leaders eventually come to this. They need something greater to feed their egos – some lasting monument to their work here on earth.

    I remember an Emerald once telling me their favorite movie quote was from Troy, I which Achilles tells a young frightened boy, “and that is why no one will remember your name.”

    That sort of sums up the mindset. They sub-consciously believe they are all meant to be Demi-gods. Well, even Achilles had his heel, and I believe their pride will be their fall.

  74. Melanie Morgan permalink
    January 10, 2013 12:36 pm


    Clearly Orrin was taking advantage of them…The awards are on their flip-charts?!!! Oh the poor suckers will have to ‘re-purchase’ them all over AGAIN!!!

  75. Rascal Teamster permalink
    January 10, 2013 12:40 pm

    Oh that’s great. Those awards are used any time Orrin and Chris are edified. They’d be in all the sales material….wonder if it’s in the First Night Pack book? Wonder how many videos they have to pull down? They will have to change a ton of tools.

    OMG….I have to go home and see. Doesn’t the introduction of every Orrin system CD start off with the announcer giving that as an Orrin credential? This is like Christmas! I can’t wait to see what’s in the package.

    Get ready Teamsters. It’s another exciting game we play called “The Tool Trunk Shuffle.” I don’t miss that game on bit.

  76. No Team For Me permalink
    January 10, 2013 1:07 pm

    Rascal Teamster – I was thinking the same thing. The reference to Leadership Guru of Orrin & chris is used on just about everyone of their CD’s. Aren’t they legally required to pull those CD’s? If not, isn’t that fraud – to be claiming recognition for an award you did not achieve in order to have credibility when peddling tools?

  77. Freedomhaha permalink
    January 10, 2013 1:10 pm

    Wait, you mean to tell me that I can’t comment on Anti-Amthrax like differing opinions can comment on here? 😉

  78. Rascal Teamster permalink
    January 10, 2013 1:15 pm

    @No team for me,

    Yup, I was thinking so. I can not believe how many CDs and Packs will have to be scrubbed. I would think the FTC will have a fit if Orrin continues to sell those CDs.

    When we all make the movie about our experience, I want to be the guy who writes the script for the PC meeting when they discuss this issue. 🙂 although you can’t write copy this damn good. Just give me the copy of the actual meeting?

  79. January 10, 2013 2:28 pm

    @No Team For Me
    “…isn’t that fraud – to be claiming recognition for an award you did not achieve in order to have credibility when peddling tools?”
    @Rascal Teamster
    “I would think the FTC will have a fit if Orrin continues to sell those CDs.”

    There’s only one way to find out!

  80. MemoryLame permalink
    January 10, 2013 2:32 pm

    “He waw awarded the Entrepreneur of the Year award from his alma mater in 2010.”

    TWO – count them – TWO multi-million dollar leadership companies!!!…and he still can’t afford an editor. 🙂

    Sorry, that is really picking I know.

  81. January 10, 2013 2:59 pm

    Thanx for the link. This TEAMmie’s attempt at being philosophical got me LOL.

    “even if your not in a business of it wouldnt you want to be the best possible you you can be and get the information from the people that have the right results that you want and learn how they did it without wasting time hoping you bought the right book from the store that nobody helped you at”

    By chad an obvious peon of Orrin Woodward AKA O dubious,

    Look at this part “if your not in a business of it wouldnt you want to be the best possible you you can be”

    Ok seriously after one becomes good at thy goodself, and decides to pursue a so called conventional business or Jaaay Ohhhh Bheee, etc. that being their rightful prerogative, why then do TEAMmies call them a loser, etc? Doesn’t that defeat the purpose of TEAM’s education/brains washing? In fact, doesn’t that defeat the TEAM business completely? While you are at it help me understand how that branding applies to followers of say John Maxwell, etc? I am sure his applied info. makes one become a better person/leader if I am not mistaken here, right?

    Has TEAM a monopoly in this field? Why then their stinking thinking/attitude upon others who choose to follow different leadership teachers? Simply proves TEAMmies are sick from their association with Odubious and co! Everything rises and falls leadership, right?

  82. MemoryLame permalink
    January 10, 2013 2:59 pm

    Here’s some more fun:

    Orrin says here:
    That Resolved was listed on THE Top 100 All-Time Best Leadership Books

    Which links to here:

    Who’s list?
    This guy –
    …Also a “Member of the Direct Sellers Association”

    They’re responsible for things like this:

    Also, there are so many fun links here that I lost count:

    This is WINNING, Orrin – Tiger Blood Winning!

  83. January 10, 2013 3:03 pm

    More on peon Chad’s comment,

    “if your not in a business of it wouldnt you want to be the best possible you you can be”

    I still beg to understand what business are this cultists in? Where is the business here? Don’t mention Amazon.

    “…and get the information from the people that have the right results that you want and learn how they did it…”

    Did what?

  84. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    January 10, 2013 3:43 pm

    @exambot: I cracked up at the same sentence you did: “if your not in a business of it wouldnt you want to be the best possible you you can be” . Let me get this right: no matter what, I can’t be the best I can be without what, slammin’ CDs like cokes and gettin’ high on “Fired Up” smoke? Just howled at your posts on this.
    @Melanie from one of her link’s posted: And, from OW’s own blog on his exalted status, what’s up with referring to oneself in the third person, as if one is speaking of the Holy Ghost? lol. I mean, it says I was on a wordpress blog of his; the title of the blog was Orrin Woodward, and then he launches into the third person as if he’s on a mount, chiseling in some profound revelations to live by…
    In Woody’s own words:
    “I felt as part of OrrinWoodwardPress’s mission to provide a balanced view of Orrin, I would go through his biography and highlight several points for the record.

    The biography of someone like Orrin Woodward isn’t the typical run of the mill resume. Orrin’s been busy. He’s an accomplished leader, father, Christian and dedicated American concerned for his country.”

    @memorylame: let’s see how many of the all-time bestselling books were actually ordered by teambots and stored in basements and back offices and the cloakroom of the Team office…hee hee. They’ll probably find 3 street addresses like they did 3 IP addresses for awards– 🙂

  85. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    January 10, 2013 3:45 pm

    Correction: in reference to OW and the “person” he wrote in…it’s not really the “third person”…it’s as if he’s speaking about OW, an acquaintance of his in the formal first person? Whatever it is, it’s spooky!

  86. Melanie Morgan permalink
    January 10, 2013 3:50 pm


    LOL..poor teammie…he is in the infancy stage of tryin’ to repeat after Simon..A-clueistic though on what’s about to hit him, sad; the beginning of the loss of who Chad used to be.

  87. MemoryLame permalink
    January 10, 2013 3:50 pm

    I think you were right the first time, Wisdom. Orrin Woodward (1st person) talking to his blog reader (2nd) about this other person (3rd) who happens to be himself. 🙂 Classic Narcissism!

    Good call!

  88. Melanie Morgan permalink
    January 10, 2013 3:59 pm


    LOL..Thanks for pointing that out! I also noticed that. Orrin is Hannibal, Qrush, and how many other Anonymous Bloggers? Another way for him to hide and exalt himself! Although I do know that he has been know to use the paid office staff and others to help him also!

  89. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    January 10, 2013 4:00 pm

    memorylame (etal): from one of the last links memorylame gave to the life biz site: one of the first sentences reads: “Orrin Woodward is celebrated as an international, NY Times best-selling author and ranks among the world’s top ten leadership gurus”

    Whoopsie-daisy! Time to revise THAT opening statement, eh? LOL!!!! Might have to revise it all when they find out where that stash of book orders really originated from, too. Um, I ain’t the religious type, but gull-dangit, this is miracle manna from heaven landing as cow-dung on the hypocrites facade of upstanding leadership.

    I have never read so much megalomaniacal claptrap IN MY LIFE, as I have coming out of LIFE/Team and the honcho…truly haven’t.

    Oh, yeah, they bash me on another wordpress (unanswerable/non-comment) site just like they go after Raquel and now Amthrax, too. MESSAGE to the blasphemers: Be my guest LIFE/Team….heathen that I am, you’ll never find a 98% cheat rate on me published anywhere. I earned my credentials the honest way. Guess you have too much crap under your own back Christian-sinning doorsteps NOW to go after my belief system, eh? Awwww, gee, I guess my agenda on Amthrax wasn’t aimed against Christianity in general after all….it was the ABUSE and BASTARDIZATION of it by you cheats…you liars….you abject frauds.

  90. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    January 10, 2013 4:13 pm

    Melanie: lol…….I wonder how much narcissism it actually takes to write like this: “I’m here today to tell you about [Ageofwisdom51] for her resume is not a typical one. [AgeofWisdom51] is an accomplished guru, having done this, that and 45 other things, known world-wide as first in her field. It’s time to set the record straight and glean the essence of [AgeofWisdom51’s] importance to the natural order of things–if only world leaders would listen….” oops, brb…weak bladder in old age from laughing too hard……….pass the popcorn!

  91. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    January 10, 2013 4:14 pm

    oops: that post was for memorylame…think I possess a little lame memory myself here.

  92. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    January 10, 2013 4:31 pm

    PAGING AMTHRAX (grin): Steadfast’s identity is a NO-BRAINER:
    read this quote carefully, and it’s obvious who wrote it:

    *The definition of “successful” depends on one’s own world view. In addition to the blessing of being happily married to the same special woman, my definition includes having worked for and achieved, among other things, a house without a mortgage, cars without loans, credit cards that have the balances paid off monthly, investments to provide for retirement, and the ability to financially help family members and others in time of need. I dare say that the “Occupy Wall Street” demonstrators across America have a differing view point. Isn’t it great that we live in a country where such diverse world views can “peacefully” co-exist. In my biased opinion, with a few exceptions, most of the MLM or networking detractors could be called “Occupy the Internet” demonstrators who are much like the Wall Street demonstrators, a small minority of apparently unemployed or unemployable people wasting time & energy complaining about the success or achievements of fellow Americans who have paid a price for success. It’s unclear to me if the occupiers on Wall Street and the internet are suffering from “victim mentality” or “entitlement mentality.” Perhaps it’s a need for revenge; or are they just cry-babies?” (end of quote under the About Me section and signed: Steadfast)

    1) only OW would start out about repeated things about himself to put himself in a good light on numerous subjects–it’s more of the narcissism.

    2) only OW would make some inane connection to Occupy Wall Street and try to make one of his usual also-inane analogies to something like Amthrax

    3) only OW would be STUPID enough to mention that he’s NOT a computer guru whiz who doesn’t understand how to google-bomb thrown in for good measure (stated prior to the quote I listed).

    4) only OW would likely make more false analogies, taking the 99% displaying anger about displaced wealth in America and try to heap that upon former MLMrs that have been seriously affected with some having their businesses robbed from them—the old flak/smokescreen trick.

    5) only OW would gon on and on with crap about “entitlement mentalities” or “cry-babies” just like I saw him do in blogs about mothers on welfare.

    Orrin Woodward: you are busted. BWhahahahahhahahahahha!

    [Editor’s note: Added blockquote. Also do note that there’s no hard evidence that Steadfast is Orrin. I’ll hold off pointing fingers without proof.]

  93. January 10, 2013 4:32 pm

    Raquel, “Christmas in January…”

    DAS, “I wonder if Kettering University will post another article titled…”Sorry, this alum is a poser!””

    ConnieF, “Hoisted on his own petard”

    TruthSeeker, “just jealous he’s a better worm.”

    Wisdom, “chiseling in some profound revelations to live by…”

    Rascal Teamster “He’s guilty of electronic doping…” & “an organized crime syndicate” & “The Tool Trunk Shuffle.”

    LOL ROFL you guys are killing me! This is getting gooder’an grits! I bet if you could place it on top of my head, my tongue would just slap my brains out tryin’ to get to it! 😉

  94. January 10, 2013 4:41 pm


    Good call on Steadfast. Mhhh…that title is also very telling isn’t it?

  95. January 10, 2013 4:43 pm

    @Raquel Peters January 10, 2013 12:18 pm

    “Did you know that the awards are used in recruiting inti Life? Apparently on the pages in the presentation flip chart! lol!”

    Can you (or some1) post a scan of that page or send it to Amthrax? Yeah Steadfast wanting to pretend IAB was riding on TEAM credibility, my a$$! Let Orrin Woodward (Odubious) issue a statement to that effect. He should not hide his atchoo, “disgust” at this sneaky IAB riding his coat-tails, NOT!, right?

  96. January 10, 2013 4:44 pm

    @Melanie Morgan Said

    “…Emily Lambert no longer works there.”

    Thanx for the heads up. Same for Klaus; those are their personal emails however, so I am not sure what effect they would have if any, anywho we will see.

  97. January 10, 2013 4:49 pm

    Yes, please post screenshots or links to webpages that demonstrate how they used the IAB Top Leader award and the Leadership Gurus title to promote and raise the credibility of Orrin Woodward.

    Note that posting a comment with too many links will cause the comment to go into moderation for future approval.

  98. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    January 10, 2013 4:51 pm

    Amthrax: I was just having some fun….if he didn’t write it, IMHO, I think he had someone write it…I didn’t want to recopy the whole ‘About Me’ thing, but there are many recurring themes in it and the style of writing is close.. I didn’t expect you to agree with me publicly…was just using your name kind of like “Warning Will Robinson! Warning!” like the robot used to do in Lost in Space.

  99. January 10, 2013 4:57 pm

    There’s too much smoke there…just saying.

  100. January 10, 2013 4:58 pm

    @Rascal Teamster January 10, 2013 12:23 pm Said

    “You know….Orrin doesn’t look so impressive when he’s running.”

    To jail? He can run or tip toe nervously like a long tailed cat walking in a room full of rocking chairs on his way there…either suits me just fine!

  101. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    January 10, 2013 5:39 pm

    Where ageofwisdom51 [note that I speak as if I am not her–hee hee] gets the idea from that ‘Steadfast’ is either OW or a toady told what to write by OW:


    throughout months of perusing OW’s own words, there’s always a flavor of either:

    1) edifying himself or the opposite extreme of being the down-home klutzy boy-next-door,

    2) some outward generalized political opinion that degenerates or gets confabulated or pulled out of context later, as it has in many of his blogs (which I’ve posted repeatedly about since last August)

    3) having to revert to Team tactics in trying to prove naysayers on Amthrax are unemployable griping bums who never got anywhere near his exalted status (this all points to his very very far right-wing opinions which are obvious in reading his history of blogs on various sites).

    4) A MAJOR clue for me: The mere mention of the word ‘debate’…….how many times has OW harped on “the Socratic Method”….from perusings about his father to making YouTube videos…it always comes up..only this time, he’s throwing flak on it, making it sound like he’s not a very good writer and not a debater.

    5) and finally, he gets down “to it”….now he can rant about his disdain for certain social standings in life, or the Federal Reserve banking system, or welfare, etc. I’ve seen this in numerous blogs of his, and also passed on to his parroting minions.

    SO: In Steadfast’s ‘About Me’ portion of the blog, we see: immediate reference to these very points:

    a) world view (which will next degenerate into a diatribe about Occupy Wallstreeters (here’s where he works in his rabid political views)

    b) his homey claims to not be very computer savvy or a debater (this could ONLY be Orrin! He’s talked over and over and over ad-nauseum about his beloved “Socratic Method” which is, in essence, exactly that: debate…he’s trying to throw the scent off here, but skunking all over himself—or enough a part of it so his chosen toady didn’t have to think for himself.)

    c) claims no knowledge about how one gets higher up in google searches
    (note: b and c would very likely NOT be coming from anyone else, either, unless a parrot was told to mention it)

    d) the old megalomaniacal factor: he immediately comes out showing the world how successful he is in his personal life, right in the very beginning: wife, money, bills paid, long time in the biz, etc., etc.

    e) ‘About Me’ Quote: “…a small minority of apparently unemployed or unemployable people wasting time & energy complaining about the success or achievements of fellow Americans who have paid a price for success It’s unclear to me if the occupiers on Wall Street and the internet are suffering from “victim mentality” or “entitlement mentality.” Perhaps it’s a need for revenge; or are they just cry-babies?” (note: this REEKS of Woodward…he’s very angry at the so-called 47%; he’s said more than once that essentially he wants unfettered free enterprise and not much spent on social programs for losers–if he did not write this, it HAD to be at his behest)

    f) and finally we get down to killing two birds with one stone as he always does: he starts out recognizing there are differing world views, but baby, he’s gonna let you know, once again, what his general views are: in his opinion, the Amthrax posters are no better than the lazy, vindictive Occupy Wallstreeters.

    I don’t expect anyone on this site to agree with me, especially Amthrax as the owner of the site…it’s pure speculation on my part, but it’s based upon reading tons of his crap from the Roman Empire on down through to those nappy welfare-grabbin’ lazy mothers. He only missed one main point: how he, Mr. Steadfast, could change/improve all of public school education in America.

  102. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    January 10, 2013 5:47 pm

    Alternative “Steadfast” Identity: EB or DH as told what to write by OW…why? because of mention of “acting like victims”……..we saw that in EB’s work and in DH’s blogs, too….

  103. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    January 10, 2013 5:53 pm

    Golly, gee: I missed something else, too, in my sense that “Steadfast” is, in essence, the voice of OW, because I heard in more than one OW interview: he doesn’t want to be “defined” by things, so here you go as more additional info: his excuse for remaining anonymous in bashing Amthrax quote: “Why am I anonymous? I don’t want his blog to define me and I refuse to be consumed by it.”

    We’ve heard this before, too, i.e., about not being defined by something he considers negative.

  104. January 10, 2013 6:10 pm

    Every time you hear a LIFE member describe a leader on stage, they say, ” {leader’s name} is speaking the TRUTH!”… finally the REAL TRUTH is spoken!

  105. January 10, 2013 6:15 pm

    These people will do ANYTHING to keep this machine rolling. For years we’d hear..

    “I’ll do ANYTHING to succeed, as long as it’s Morally, Ethically and Legally Right”.

    People of integrity expect to be believed and time will prove them right. And time is proving them right.

  106. January 10, 2013 6:55 pm

    Read the article below (published today – Jan 10, 2013) and think how it compares to LIFE..–herbalife-defends-itself-against-ackman-s-claims

  107. Freedomhaha permalink
    January 10, 2013 7:26 pm

    Steadfast could be OW, but it is impossible to know. He has crated thousands of lemmings with the purpose of having the same rhetoric and style as him. With thousands of those CDs pumped through their bloodstreams anyone is going to sound at least a little like Orrin.

  108. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    January 10, 2013 7:55 pm

    @Freedom: …lemmings with CDs pumping through their bloodstreams……lol

    (note: but of course there’s no way to know for sure–would hope you don’t think I’m that sophomorically stupid enough as to think I actually know for sure, yet.the section written that I examined several times and referred to above, actually sounded completely like him–every single idea. It did not, for example, resemble CBs style of writing to me…but hey, I never claimed to be the Great Karnak)

  109. Melanie Morgan permalink
    January 10, 2013 8:03 pm

    OM gollie….I am ROFLmao…Wisdom,..your posts are killing me! 🙂

  110. Mike Collins permalink
    January 10, 2013 8:11 pm

    Orrin’s blog is down. LOL Are you revamping/scrubbing your blog orrin?

    You’re such a turd of a man

  111. January 10, 2013 8:14 pm

    Here’s a photo from the LIFE Flipchart ($70). Looks like there are going to have to re-print these all over again.

    LIFE Flipchart with IAB and Guru Mentions

  112. Melanie Morgan permalink
    January 10, 2013 8:15 pm



  113. Melanie Morgan permalink
    January 10, 2013 8:16 pm


    THANK YOU! You are the BEST!

  114. TruthSeeker permalink
    January 10, 2013 8:22 pm

    Now that is funny! Thanks orrin you chump….this is priceless…

  115. Rascal Teamster permalink
    January 10, 2013 8:22 pm

    Which one, Mike?

    This one’s still up.

  116. Mike Collins permalink
    January 10, 2013 8:41 pm

    That was the one LOL must have been a temporary gliche.

    I jumped the gun. I’m sorry Orrin Woodward……you’re not a turd

  117. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    January 10, 2013 9:00 pm

    Hey! This site is up:

    I noticed on this blog that they claim: “This blog is an Alltop selection and ranked in HR’s Top 100 Blogs for Management & Leadership” Um, no more leadership guru advertising??.

    I see Orrin took our lead from another thread and decided to post how to get those bonuses…Mike Collins….go look…it’s a little trickier than we first thought…I must have been right, though, about having to multiply by 12 to get a million something because look: “Executive Life Coach 6 receives $100,000 (up from $50,000 last year)”

    Oh, and at the bottom of the new blog, he got around to us: ” In summary, I have learned over the years, that the best thing to do when others criticize, minimize, and ostracize, is to dream bigger, do bigger, and deliver bigger than ever before” (right before that, he was trying to sell more of his books–lol)

    On another OW site, we have another name touting the virtues of OW and CB:

    Whoopsy-Daisy: he forgot to get rid of the leadershipguru site info and the IAB info highlighted with hyperlinks in red on:

    On another site: found another new bloggy thing: Who’s this Mark Haas guy that put this up today? He talks about bucket MLMs and goes on to say how that’s not the philosophy of OW, etc.

    Let the lemming blood-letting of new deflective blather blogs begin (1/9 and 1/10)…….

  118. January 10, 2013 9:09 pm


    Orrin actually stopped using the “leadership guru” term on his main blog for several months now. He did have the award banner on the left-hand sidebar still up, but that image is broken now.

    Because he’s taught his followers well, however, he is still commonly referred to as a leadership guru by TEAM/LIFE members.

  119. Rascal Teamster permalink
    January 10, 2013 9:18 pm


    Mark Haas is a big leader on the Brady team

  120. TruthSeeker permalink
    January 11, 2013 4:17 am

    @Age, Haas could not have written that, the grammar, spelling, and sentence structure are much too good to have been written by him. Probably another “copy and paste” blog article heisted from a real writer. I have read a few things he has written in the past, and I guarantee that isn’t him.

  121. TruthSeeker permalink
    January 11, 2013 4:28 am

    Perhaps orrin woodward’s minions have been provided a full-time blog writer, who will write articles, and has taught them to copy and paste. There is a letter posted somewhere on this blog that was written by Haas, and sent to one of his “downline”. He was angry with that person and gave them a belittling reprimand. Does anyone know the thread where that letter is at? Would be interesting to compare the Haas article that @Age posted, and the hatchet job I recognized in his private letter.

    Oh, and just to get back on topic, orrin you are not, and never were a “guru”, you are a two-bit huckster, who has managed through deceit, to elevate yourself to an unmerited position of leverage. You are a legend in your own mind. Your time of reckoning is coming.

  122. Rascal Teamster permalink
    January 11, 2013 4:48 am


    “Oh, and just to get back on topic, orrin you are not, and never were a “guru”, you are a two-bit huckster, who has managed through deceit, to elevate yourself to an unmerited position of leverage. You are a legend in your own mind. Your time of reckoning is coming.”

    God Bless America, that’s a great breakfast read. Amen to the day of reckoning.


  123. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    January 11, 2013 5:10 am

    Amthrax etal: why did OW and his other top bloggers stop referring to him as a top guru several months ago? Around the time of the IAB/FTC problem? Guess I read so many blogs and saw it so many times that I never even noticed guru references gone. I wonder why, though, he’s failed to take it off of his dot com address?

  124. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    January 11, 2013 5:23 am

    Just a little “aside”…I’m on Bing running searches on OW, and I come across a preaching video of him (from 2/2011) and a listing for a church service right under it: “Upcoming Shows: Sunday Morning Worship Service 01/13/2013 9:15 AM CST” (sorry, I’ve just never see church service referred to as a show before, lol) (this is at the Palm City, FL Cross Church; no references to guru found on this one; this site has 6 followers)

  125. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    January 11, 2013 5:41 am

    Hey, now Orrin’s sellin’ rocket fuel, too (lol): try the www address attached to: empireavenue/ORRIN (no guru listed on this blurb page)

    On this website: scroll down to January 2 2013 post for the “Leadershift” with Ollie Demille…he not only calls himself a guru, he has it in a ribbon that he’s one of the top 25 in the world. When you click on the links from the “plus” site, it takes you right to his blog site, and if you scroll down, you’ll see he still calls himself a leadership guru on his own blog site, too, left hand column.

  126. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    January 11, 2013 5:43 am

    This is the site where there’s still guru banners on his blog page…but I’m wondering if it’s not there due to archiving?

  127. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    January 11, 2013 5:47 am

    WHAT?? WHAT THE HECK IS THIS!! I just saw this same info he posted on 1/11/2013 on an old 2011 web information, and I actually watched this webinar thing in the past, I thought! This is old crap, about that HBRN stuff and how wonderful G. Guzzardo is. Why is it posted as new stuff for 1/11/13? Scrapin’ the bottom of the barrel, are we? BTW: he still has up the world top 25 leadership blue ribbon pic on the left side of the page.

  128. freedomhaha permalink
    January 11, 2013 6:07 am

    Age- Sorry for the confusion I was not saying that you would take the leap to assume that it was OW for sure in regards to the writing on Anti- Amthrax. I was trying to use that point to show that if you stay long enough in this cult everything that you do is the same from the gibberish that you speak to the garbage that you write.

    Rascal- Thanks for your contribution to his blog I love reading your witty commentary on here. I especially appreciate your call outs on here because we came from relatively the same part of TEAM. When the day comes when the cult is finally crushed we should celebrate.

  129. Rascal Teamster permalink
    January 11, 2013 6:57 am

    We all will, Freedom. We all will.

    Great work, ageofwisdom51. Your research is priceless. I never noticed the removal of the guru tag from the “players.” That is interesting. There is just so much bullcrap to wade through, I spend half my time watching where I step and…..zoom…..something flies right over my head.

  130. Mike Collins permalink
    January 11, 2013 7:34 am

    I sent Chris Brady a pm on FB this morning:

    I sent your alma mater a copy of this quote from the leadershipgurus site and the corresponding link:

    “And, when we added an IP address checker to our system this year, two Guru candidates listed in the top 15, Orrin Woodward and Chris Brady, who have had substantial votes since 2010, were disqualified and removed from the list because more than 98% of their votes came for only three IP addresses, meaning that only three people voted for them over and over again. This accounted for almost 2000 of their votes.”

    We wouldn’t want Kettering University unknowingly participating in you and Orrins fraud now would we? You two keep up the good work. We’re enjoying the show.

  131. January 11, 2013 7:53 am

    @ageofwisdom – If you look at archived versions of Orrin Woodward’s blog subtitle, it used to say the following things. Click on the links to see a screenshot.

    January, 2012

    “Leadership Guru, Orrin Woodward shares the secrets of success and leadership.”

    March, 2012

    “Winner of the 2011 Independent Association of Business Top Leader Award; Orrin Woodward shares his leadership secrets.”

    September, 2012

    “Winner of the 2011 IAB Top Leader Award; Orrin Woodward shares his leadership secrets.”

    January, 2013

    “New York Times best-selling author Orrin Woodward shares his life leadership secrets.”

    You’ll also note in the earlier bio section entries, he mentioned that he was not only a NY Times best selling author, but also a Wall Street Journal, USA Today, and Money & BusinessWeekly best selling author. I don’t see those references all that much anymore in their blog posts, and I haven’t (yet) come across references to their book’s best seller status on those papers’ list. If you find them, send me the details.

    Orrin is “still” a Top Leadership Guru according to this website, which has not been updated in YEARS. But, he’s only listed at #25 (and Chris Brady is nowhere to be found), so he can’t claim to be in the Top 10 anymore after being removed and disqualified from the LeadershipGurus list.

  132. Mike Collins permalink
    January 11, 2013 8:07 am

    Can he claim to be in the top 25 if he’s been disqualified and removed?? LOL

  133. January 11, 2013 8:13 am

    @Mike – He can continue to claim that he’s #25 on a shoddy-looking website that hasn’t been updated in over two years.

    I don’t think they should be able to claim Top 15 status for Orrin or Chris anymore.

  134. January 11, 2013 8:42 am

    @ageofwisdom – Are you sure this wasn’t a new video that was recorded yesterday on HBRN with Orrin, George, and Tony (of HBRN)? They’ve had several shows now, and they say this was was recorded and streamed live on January 10, 2013.

  135. freedomhaha permalink
    January 11, 2013 9:23 am

    Amthrax- It is really interesting seeing how the titles match up when they are compared to each other right in a row. Does anyone know if he still has the same Facebook banner? It will be funny to see how long it takes before that is also part of the scrubbing. To borrow a paraphrased line from Mark Paul “It is like they are arranging the deck chairs on the Titanic”.

  136. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    January 11, 2013 9:30 am

    Amthrax: I believe you, and if that’s true, then they did an almost identical interview, saying the same things. Here’s the quote from beneath the “new” vid info posted under the “hangout” photo of the OW blog site. It caught my eye because just a few minutes earlier, I was on the old 2011 one, reading just about the same thing about GG:

    Quote from the current page which starts out like the 2011 one did: “Tony Cannuli and I had the special privilege to interview one of the best leaders in the community building field on Home Business Radio Network’s Leadership Factory – George Guzzardo. George has been a friend and business partner for nearly 20 years”.

    And when I click over and look at the video, it looks like the one I saw months ago, after I came onto your site and started digging. Really confusing…

    Oh, and on the hyperlink entitled “criticism”, I DO see a new 1/10/2013 response from GG to the owner of that page: Scott Allen.

    I don’t know…I just don’t get why this is the same video I’d seen before…..

  137. January 11, 2013 10:06 am

    Just read the Scott Allen article. In my opinion, it’s Scott who hasn’t done his homework.

  138. January 11, 2013 10:08 am

    The fact that all the literature and CDs will have to be re-done to remove the false leadership guru claims only helps Orrin and Chris. It’s just another way for them to force people to buy MORE tools. It was too early for them to change the name AGAIN, so this is the next best thing. Let’s just hope it does more harm than good and that people will start seeing these scammers for who they are. Unfortunately Orrin is a master spin doctor and he’ll stop at nothing to keep his scam going.

    Oh what a tangled web we weave…

  139. January 11, 2013 10:13 am

    Furthermore, Scott says that he’s a “client and a friend” of Orrin’s so he’s operating from a biased position.

  140. MemoryLame permalink
    January 11, 2013 10:13 am


    I thought the same thing about that Haas article when I read it. I would be very interested to read the letter from him as well if you come across the link. I received a similar phone call from him once, as did several of the former members of my “team.” Finding out about each one just added nails to coffin of this [thankfully] dead dream.

    Incidentally, I noticed recently that Matt Zimmerman, who I believe was Mark’s college roommate and original sponsor has not only left the team, but appears to be the sole leader outside of Don Freeze who is still included on the leadership roster if Berean Baptist with Pastor Dickie.

    @Mike Collins,

    You’re my newest hero! Are you the same Mike that had a cd once, with a story about your daughter breaking a violin string or is that another Mike?

    Back to the topic of false and rigged recognition – does anyone know about the validity of OW’s famous engineering degree? I never could figure out why that meant anything at all, but I am curious.

    Also, what about O&C’s loose affiliations with John Maxwell or RC Sproul? Are they still attempting to associate themselves with any church outside of their own? This is another area of recognition they always seemed to tout loudly. Ironically, they never seemed to emphasize the Mormon faith aspect of the MORE project, however. Nor did they ever highlight that Dallin Larsen had once been a member of the leading council of the Mormon church in Utah. I grew up in an Apologetic style Baptist church, so I know there are stark doctrinal and theological differences in the two churches, and I assure you that given their respective backgrounds this would have definitely been a no-compromise for either Dickie or Larsen .

    I always felt it disingenuous at best that they would avidly promote Bob Dickie’s church when it suited their recruitment needs and then subtlety switch gears when MV became the only option (out of the “1400 businesses that Owen researched at length”… rrriiiggght!!). It isn’t that I think people of differing faiths can’t work and do business together, but once again these guys clearly blurred lines whenever it suited them or better lined their pockets. I’m waiting for the day they begin proclaiming that they heard from God directly, in a voice from the cloud over their yacht telling them to take more money from the new guy.

  141. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    January 11, 2013 10:18 am

    Hey, Amthrax–LOL!! Okay, I went in under the NEW supposed HBRN video…now mind you the text below it talks about George Guzzardo…….WELL! The actual video itself has GOT to be the one I heard before because it’s actually Claude Hamilton video conferencing in from Nova Scotia in the video (which leaves me wondering WHY the post below the link to the video talks about George G, too. The host says stuff like: this is our very first time, etc. AND he introduces OW as “the top 7 leadership GURU in the world”, etc. I’m tellin’ ya, there’s something fishy here and it’s gotta be a reworked item? (and yes, I am now referencing the actual video as supposedly recorded on 1/10/2013…and it all sounded the same to me as the 2011 one)

  142. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    January 11, 2013 10:25 am

    Amthrax: I fully understand I’m likely posting this on the wrong thread…just didn’t know where to put it…you can move it to a different thread if you like. What the heck? George and Jill G. had been the front runners for Monavie in the lawsuit???
    “Guzzardo, et al v. Amway Corporation
    More Sharing ServicesShare | Share on googlebuzzShare on facebook_likePlaintiff: MONAVIE, a Utah limited liability company
    Defendant – Appellant: AMWAY CORPORATION, a Delaware corporation, NKA Amway International, Inc.
    Plaintiff – Appellees: GEORGE GUZZARDO and JILL GUZZARDO, individually and on behalf of a class of similarly situated persons and entities
    Case Number: 09-4236
    Filed: December 29, 2009

    Court: U.S. Court of Appeals, Tenth Circuit

    Nature of Suit: Torts – Injury – Other Personal Injury

    Previous Case: MonaVie v. Quixtar et al (2:2008cv00204”

  143. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    January 11, 2013 10:27 am

    Amthrax: George and Jill filed two more just prior to this one, too, both against Amway…you can see it below on the hyperlink I provided…..

  144. January 11, 2013 11:15 am

    @MemoryLame January 11, 2013 10:13 am

    “Back to the topic of false and rigged recognition – does anyone know about the validity of OW’s famous engineering degree? I never could figure out why that meant anything at all, but I am curious.”

    You know how MLMers love the words “s/he is a former yada yada?” This is just a sick, twisted MLM strategy to gain credibility while feigning a placidly “but do I say…” attitude, or … pose maybe? Not a second later the same mouth bashes the same education system like a homeless dog. A chigger’s sense hadn’t looked more sexier.

  145. January 11, 2013 11:18 am

    There’s no evidence to dispute Orrin’s degree. He got them and worked in the auto industry for a number of years before embarking on his MLM journey with Amway, Quixtar, MonaVie, and now LIFE.

  146. January 11, 2013 11:23 am

    @ageofwisdom51 – These comments are better served in the following post:

    It’s possible that Guzzardo’s lawsuit was settled at the same time as these in 2010. Please continue the discussion there. Let’s keep talking about the IAB and LeadershipGurus awards in this post.

  147. January 11, 2013 11:31 am

    I do have to quote this comment from Guzzardo on Scott Allen’s article:

    Scott, Thank you! You are an expert in this area. Most of us are not and can easily be swayed be anyone with a bogus opinion. It’s great to read from someone with your credibility as opposed to some payed hired guns. George Guzzardo

    Compare this with Scott’s line:

    Orrin’s also a client and a friend.

    Who’s the hired gun? It’s certainly not me, because I have never been paid for anything that I’ve done on this blog. Zero. Zilch. Nada.

  148. Rascal Teamster permalink
    January 11, 2013 12:00 pm


    If this quote is directed at you…..

    “It’s great to read from someone with your credibility as opposed to some payed hired guns. George Guzzardo”

    ….it’s because the most popular answer inside Team as to who you are is that you are hired by Amway to bring down the Team.

    I don’t know if they actually believe that, or it’s just their favorite line of garbage to use, but I would imagine more than just I have heard that.

    OK…..And if they are referring to you, I’d like to settle this right now. You do awesome work here Amthrax, and I’d like to take this opportunity to buy you a drink. Where do I send it?

    Consider yourself paid 😉

  149. switch permalink
    January 11, 2013 12:35 pm

    Interesting how BUZZARDo and the clan love to dish it out but when it comes time to actually taking it….it’s a whole different story, isn’t it?

  150. January 11, 2013 1:19 pm

    @Raquel and Rascal – They believe that I’m paid by Amway because that’s what they want to believe.

  151. Rascal Teamster permalink
    January 11, 2013 1:28 pm

    OMG Raquel, your response kills me.

    When I talked with you on the phone a couple months ago, I asked you if you thought that was true. You laughed at me then. LOL….I think you just did it again?!?

    You’re awesome, and I deserve that.

    I also believed that Orrin was the Messiah, George Guzzardo was a genius, the Team was going to change the World, and Al Gore invented the Internet.

    Now leave me alone. I am awaiting a deposit from a distant relative in Kenya I didn’t know I had. Only cost me $1500 to set it all up. Fired Up!

  152. Melanie Morgan permalink
    January 11, 2013 1:28 pm


    That is hysterical. I think you ought to take those comments and make that into a post and add to the primer so that is clear to the commentors, teammies, and prospects because once they have been told this by the fake gurus, then they “want’ to believe it too! It is necessary to show the lies people are being told!

    Swtich…BUZZARDo…LMAO…You have me in stitches…

    Rascal~ Keep up the great work…Cheers!

    I love this site and the people on here! 🙂 🙂

  153. Melanie Morgan permalink
    January 11, 2013 1:46 pm


    I agree we could take this over under the other thread, but could you explain what you understand about this lawsuit. Funny, this was filed approx. a yr. after they forced us out.

    It seems to me that he sued Amway for interference…what a joke. Looking for your take!

    What a freaking hypocrite!!!!

  154. January 11, 2013 2:31 pm

    Amthrax @January 11, 2013 7:53 am

    Great job on that list – the evidence speaks for itself!

    Looks like steadfast’s been rode hard and put up wet!!! Ain’t no comebacks on this one for Steadfast. He hadn’t been nowhere!



    Dang! ROFL.

  155. January 11, 2013 2:35 pm

    “..rode hard and put up wet!!!”

    I.e. whupped bad! Not that other one silly.

  156. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    January 11, 2013 4:09 pm

    MemoryLame: about OW’s engineering degree…I just happened to see today that Kettering was once known by another name–that’s the time period he graduated, ie., before it became Kettering, I think, and I think I saw OW say something like that on one of the numerous blog pages I swept through. Also: he WAS mentioned in a Kettering Alumni newsletter from 2010 that I posted awhile back on this thread.

  157. MemoryLame permalink
    January 11, 2013 5:44 pm

    I’m actually not in doubt of Orrin’s degree. What I’m curious about is that “Systems Award” that he always touted winning while at GM.

    I can’t even remember the name of it now though. I just remember always hearing it was only one of two ever given.

  158. No Team For Me permalink
    January 11, 2013 5:49 pm

    Memory Lame – the famous National Benchmarking Award. I do know he really was given that award. He used to have it on the wall in his basement at the Michigan home.

  159. freedomhaha permalink
    January 11, 2013 8:06 pm

    Guys, it looks like we can comment on Mr. Allen’s article. 🙂

  160. Soon2BOut permalink
    January 11, 2013 10:06 pm

    Orrin is such a joke. The only thing that makes him any type of guru is a guru on how to be an idiot. How does he sleep at night?

  161. TruthSeeker permalink
    January 12, 2013 3:14 am

    I agree Amthrax, it is scott allen who hasn’t done his homework.

    scotty boy wrote, ” In addition to authoring over a dozen books, they’re successful entrepreneurs with two 8-figure businesses, LIFE and TEAM, and they’re both Black Diamond distributors in Monavie. Orrin’s also a client and a friend.”

    Really scott, are they both “qualified” Black Diamonds in Monavie? Did orrin earn the temporary rank of Presidential (yes temporary), or was he given an unfair advantage and positioned by Ken Porter? Not to mention the $3 million dollar agreement that he benefited from while his entire team lost money, and many of his so called leaders filed bankruptcy. I guess you are drinking the koolaid on that one aren’t you?

    Is that baseless accusation, or innuendo?

    scotty also wrote, “orrin’s also a client and a friend.” Well, well, well, friends huh? Well who the hell do you think the people on this blog are? Here within this blog are some of the closest friends mr. wormwood has ever had. Do you know him as well as the people here? Have you spent decades getting to know him on an intimate basis? Let’s apply a bit of critical thinking:

    1. If orrin is such a ‘guru’ why have the majority of his closest friends, including his mentor Pastor Dickie chosen to distance themselves and severe their relationships? Is it because of their “real influence”?

    2. If orrin is such a great guy, with such social influence why does he need to hire a loser like you to manage his online reputation?

    3. If orrin is such a man, why is he running a business where over 96% of participants are paying in while only 4% are earning. Why didn’t he use his guruness to create a plan that would benefit more people instead of a top-heavy, self-serving, piece of garbage?

    I will personally stake my professional reputation as a “Team, Lief, orrin woodward chris brady hater” that you are nothing but a two-bit huckster con man just like orrin.

  162. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    January 12, 2013 3:49 am

    @memorylame: water over the dam, but: sorry about addressing response on the validity of OW’s college degree comment to the wrong person. It was actually supposed to be exambot….that’s the person who had asked about it.

  163. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    January 12, 2013 4:01 am

    Amthrax: did you notice on a prior update post of mine that on that particualr HBRN conference you think is new from 1/10/2013 (but of which I’m highly skeptical because it has Claude Hamilton in it and it sounded verbatim that I watched awhile ago, i.e., this is the one where the text under the video on the blog site references George G., etc.), that OW is referred to as: “top 7 leadership gurus in the world” by the host. Question: if this video conference actually WAS new, would they be calling Orrin among the top 7? And what cause went on for him to be referred to as among the top 7, and in what time period?

  164. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    January 12, 2013 4:30 am

    Whoopsie daisy! Here’s another website blogger who might have to revise his “guru status” of OW, and note: when you go there, make sure to read the commentary by others (it slams Amthrax site posters). This is from May of 2012 or so (not sure if this was listed yet or not):

  165. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    January 12, 2013 4:44 am

    Amthrax: the site I list at the bottom is where I got this info from (which was off of a biography of CB). In that bio, it states that this place in the UK ranked OW as #7 guru:

    Leadership Gurus International 121 Arundel Rd, Birmingham B14 5UE United Kingdom

    I got this address off of a PDF file bio of CB:

    Click to access binder_page_6_biography_chris.pdf

  166. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    January 12, 2013 4:58 am

    Amthrax: PROBLEM SOLVED: finally figured it out re: the actual new HBRN conference confusion (on OW…if you begin reading the text and click on the first hyperlink OW provides, it takes you right to the FIRST video conference with Claude H. as guest, even though it has George G’s name attached to that hyperlink. If you overlook that link, and continue reading then, yes a the bottom of the blog page, I see a link to the new interview…this is very confusing to readers to have OW having the wrong destination under a hyperlink.

  167. January 12, 2013 8:08 am

    @ageofwisdom – Orrin rarely calls himself a leadership guru anymore, but he won’t correct anyone who uses that term to describe him. In my opinion, perpetuating the falsehoods is more important than correcting it. It maintains the illusion that he’s still a leadership guru and puts the eventual blame on the speaker rather than the subject. Ultimately, he can say something to the effect of, “Well, I’m not saying it… it’s not my fault that they aren’t informed.”

    As for the address of the Leadership Gurus website, that’s the same address that I posted on my original post about the topic. That address hasn’t changed. What’s your question about that again?

  168. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    January 12, 2013 8:37 am

    Amthrax: well, likely no questions anymore once I realized that OW had a hyperlink mistakenly opening the first HBRN interview (see a post above; a hyperlink for the new 2013 HBRN interview actually lead to an old one with Claud Hamilton in it), while at the bottom of same said article where the erroneous hyplink was listed, I actually finally SAW the new HBRN interview with George G in it from Jan 2013. So, anyway: at first I was wondering what time period this Brit group had bestowed the #7 guru position on OW, but I guess now I know. 🙂

  169. January 12, 2013 8:39 am

    They awarded the title in 2011 and revoked it in 2013. There was no 2012 list.

  170. No Team For Me permalink
    January 12, 2013 9:38 am

    What I’d give to be able to rent a few billboards on the route to the next major with the headline “Leadership Guru Revoked” and a picture of Orrin, then at the bottom, the Amthrax web address.

  171. Melanie Morgan permalink
    January 12, 2013 9:48 am

    No Team For Me~

    Hahaha, that would be FUNny! 🙂

  172. Melanie Morgan permalink
    January 12, 2013 10:42 am


    Jan.12, 2013 4:30am.. build magnetic network link, I am not seeing a blog post, is there something I missing or am I suppose to click something on that page?

  173. Melanie Morgan permalink
    January 12, 2013 10:50 am


    I agree, people cannot make an informed decision without the ‘rest-of-the-story’, especially when they do everything they can to hide it. We already know this is done intentional. Clearly, their efforts to sway their reputation is the most important to them.

  174. No Team For Me permalink
    January 12, 2013 1:20 pm

    Looks like Eric’s lawsuit against Raquel awoke a sleeping giant. Look at all the people posting on here and on her FB pages. I’m hearing from a lot of people who think that Orrin & crew crossed the line with that lawsuit. I think we’re going to continue to see even more activity. Let’s get that legal defense fund started right away!!!!!

    And everyone really needs to take the time to write the FTC, BBB, 60 Minutes, Forbes, Kettering Univ, Orrin’s church in FL, etc. It’s time to get the truth out.

  175. freedomhaha permalink
    January 12, 2013 1:42 pm

    No Team- That is a great start, but I don’t want to stop there. We should contact the outside connections of all the PC members and let them know about the criminal activity of these scumbags in the inner circle.

  176. January 12, 2013 2:15 pm

    FYI – Steadfast has a response to the LeadershipGurus rankings on his blog:

  177. No Team For Me permalink
    January 12, 2013 2:48 pm

    I like the way the “Comments are closed” on the Anti-Amthrax site. Why are the team leaders always so afraid to have an open discussion with both sides present? They only want their flock to have one side of the story.

    And not the comment about “follow at your own risk…..” trying to scare teamsters into being afraid to log on to this site.

    That anti-amthrax article was shameful. Like a thief claiming they were set up and they did nothing wrong, it was someone else’s fault. When will they ever step up to the plate and accept responsibility?

  178. MemoryLame permalink
    January 12, 2013 3:05 pm

    Awe, Steadfast, I love all your emoticons! They make me feel like I can trust you, especially the little devil one. 😉
    Let me see if I understand you…

    1) Seriously, the whole “the votes probably all came from the major seminar” bit? Unless they were
    A) very short on numbers of butts in seats to only get 2000 votes across 3 Majors AND
    B) All using stadium wifi rather than cell network (which is very unlikely) to all have the same IP address

    Then that argument doesn’t hold water.

    2) So, what if Amthrax did all those votes himself, in a set up knowing that Guru Site would one day install an IP checker and he could deface O & C?

    Really? What if monkeys flew out my…

    3) Let’s say Guru is now also involved in this conspiracy to harm your “leaders”…wait, I had to stop laughing a minute…Orrin and Chris leveraged THEIR RECOGNITION for months! It seems that so long as they were ranked in a way that posed them favorably, they were a perfectly legitimate source. So legit it seems that they were eager to plaster this recognition everywhere!

    So, did Guru Site BECOME a pyramid…Er, I mean, a bad collector of data because they added an IP address checker that exposed this vote rigging? Or was it bad and collecting legitimate data all along?

    4) Amthrax has been great with my information, and showed me utmost respect. In fact if Claude Hamilton wanted to come to this thread and print a reply to the article you mentioned, I will wager, Amthrax would be happy to post it.

    You, on the other hand, don’t even have a comments section for me to post this on your site.


  179. January 12, 2013 3:09 pm

    @No Team For Me

    “…it was someone else’s fault”

    By now MLM “industry” should have trademarked that.

  180. January 12, 2013 3:13 pm

    Isn’t it pathetic how suddenly there’s a conspicuous rush to scrub or banish these web pages that were meant to lend credence to the scammer and thereby supposedly silence their enemies, us? That blogger had waxed poetic ’bout when he met Odooby. I know he cussed that day and the day he put up that page as well, while deleting that page today. 🙂 He’s just another ostrich burrying his head upside MLM a$$ instead of addressing the piling issue.

  181. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    January 12, 2013 3:50 pm

    Holy crapoli! ‘Steadfast’ is even longer-winded than I am! Even I couldn’t finish reading all of that—bwahahahahahahha! Between that post and memorylame suggesting monkeys flying out of lower, um, regions….I couldn’t believe how much I’d missed while taking a nap today. 3:)

  182. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    January 12, 2013 3:59 pm

    Wait, I’m still rubbing the sandman winkies out of my eyes. Um, did Steadfast actually write this(from link Amthrax posted several posts up):

    “In fact, the handful of AMTHRAX naysayers thought they saw blood from an injured Orrin and Chris when it was really only red Kool-Aid thrown in the water by AMTHRAX! This is really much ado about nothing”….

    and then in the next paragraph, he also suggested that if the guru website did not include OW and CB in the upcoming March 2013 results, that somehow it would show something negative about that site, too. Pinch me, please….maybe I’ll have to take back that I think this is OW himself writing…I think he gave the job to Howdy Doody….

  183. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    January 12, 2013 4:38 pm

    Hey, Amthrax: I just read the initial thread stuff over again: when did you realize Mr. Steadfast was Tim Marks? How did you find out??

  184. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    January 12, 2013 4:52 pm

    Message for Amthrax: I was looking through all of the pages and clicking on links of that anti-amthrax blogger and when I clicked a link, this is the error message I got: (one is supposed to contact them for help with broken links…maybe this will help you out somehow–I am assuming that this is the underlying host of something?) And another question: what were all of the ranting and ravings about by that blogger regarding following you on Twitter and lack of privacy, etc? Note: this all lead off of going over the lunatic-fringe explanations regarding the guru awards and just moving on from that page.

  185. letsendit@life permalink
    January 12, 2013 5:00 pm

    It’s sad to say this doesn’t surprise me at all. There was always an inclination that this whole fired up nonsense was a scam when I first got started back when it was team of destiny in 1999/2000. However I was working directly with some of my best friends, who also happened to be extremely close to orrin. I didn’t think they would steer me wrong(Back then I don’t think they knew how much hogwash this all was, but I’m certain they know it’s complete BS today and are just as guilty) They were going to one million back then too. However I don’t remember when they were suppose to reach it by. I Assume though it would have been by now if not years ago. I would strongly urge anyone who is thinking about joining this “dream” to find it somewhere else. Possibly your local library. The fact that Orrin & Chris were found of getting about 2,000 votes by illegitimate gains is enough for me…(2,000 votes for a international award in itself doesn’t seem like a lot. Should tell you how much people pay attention to this site and its credentials) My mind always told me this was a scam but there wasn’t the concrete proof back from 99/06. Concrete proof to me now is Orrin & Chris gaining the IAB illegitamley but even stronger would be the fact that John & Melanie Morgan are no longer involved. They were close friends to my “friends.” On top of all that there is pastor Dickie who is no longer with them. That is a huge red flag as well, Not to mention the other diamonds like Jeff & Barb, Matt & believe his wife is Cheryl, Don & Chris, seems like the list goes on… I have personally seen the checks of these PC members and you would have to be nuts to just pick up and leave. I also want to add that back when team of destiny was changing from tod to team, the pc knew about and were manipulating the search results on google/yahoo in an effort to avoid bad publicity. Lastly I just want to let anyone who’s thinking about joining w/e they’re calling it now to strongly listen to what the people on this website are saying as truth. I don’t think they would make up these heartfelt stories, especially since they all sound to true. It’s REAL emotion…

  186. January 12, 2013 6:17 pm

    If my memory serves me right “Steadfast” was the name Joce Dionne choose for his team under Claude Hamilton

  187. freedomhaha permalink
    January 12, 2013 8:14 pm

    Age- Did I miss where anyone said that Anti-Amthrax was Marks? Just curious. Thanks so much for your work on here.

  188. January 12, 2013 8:29 pm

    I never said that Anti-Amthrax/Steadfast was Tim Marks. I had a quote that I thought Steadfast wrote when it was in fact from a Tim Mark’s post.

  189. January 12, 2013 8:31 pm

    @ageofwisdom – Claude Hamilton once signed up to receive updates on my blog. I was notified of that and posted about it. This is the reason why Steadfast said that I would reveal private information.

    BTW, nothing to see with the mention. That’s just nameservers/hosts for the domain.

  190. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    January 13, 2013 4:59 am

    Amthrax: re: Steadfast vs T. Marks: ohhhhh, I see now. I was looking at the crossed-out line up in the initial thread.

  191. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    January 13, 2013 5:04 am

    freedomhaha: no, what happened was: I misunderstood Amthrax crossing out Steadfast’s name and attributing the info to T. Marks. I took it to mean that Steadfast = Marks, instead of Amthrax just correcting a quote citation.

  192. Rascal Teamster permalink
    January 13, 2013 6:16 am

    Wow…..I go to one wrestling meet out of town and my iPhone blows up with posts to this thread. I can barely keep up with you guys. You Rock!


    You made a comment about the possibility of stadium wifi being used to get those votes. What stadium wifi? I’ve had an iPod for years, and it used to burn me to no end that none of the venues had a public wifi. None of them.

    I’d have to walk around the corner and find a Starbucks or some place that had a signal so I could FaceTime my kids. Not even remotely possible they came from a major, unless there was a stadium wifi purchased. But 2012 was the second year Orrin was placed there. What about 2011 when he first showed up? Did they game that as well? If you get it naturally the first time, why would you have to cheat the second time?

    I’m waiting for the fireworks to start shooting from the Leadership Gurus. Since this announcement, their site has been down. I’m sure this cost them a lot of money having to change their site, come up with their response. This gaming hurt their reputation. There is no way I could see them not investigating the origin of the IP addresses and suing whoever gamed them. How could they not? They have to clear their name.

    Keep your eyes open and your search engines warmed up. This is gonna be good!

    Seriously, I think we are less of their worries at this immediate moment than the Top 30 Leadership Gurus (Global Gurus).

    And, yes, there is a team of Claude’s names Kaizen Steadfast, and I believe you are right in Joce Dionne. I will check into that and follow up.

  193. Rascal Teamster permalink
    January 13, 2013 7:50 am

    Here’s the other thing that gets me with this Leadership Guru list. What the heck company since…..oh……2005…..doesn’t have an IP checker on their website ballot when they are running a contest? That was about when I saw the first one. It was even build into all forum software by then.

    Amthrax, when did forum software and blog software give moderators the ability to check the number of unique IP log ins? Damn, I bet it was earlier than that.

    The point I’m making is that it’s CHEAP and easy. Any 2-bit programmer and web guy can do it.

    So….it’s 2012 and the World Reknown Top Leadership Gurus finally install a basic program to their voting software???? Oh double dip me in chocolate and call me a Sundae. It’s built into the voting software to prevent this. Who would buy software that wouldn’t? I don’t even think you can get it. Nope….I’m not buying it.

    Two conclusions…..

    Either Leadership Gurus are that sloppy that they didn’t install $100 software… most my guy can install that on my website for a few hundred bucks, or they are part of the scam and this is their exit strategy?

    Please permit me to post these call outs here…..
    @ The Top 30 Leadership Gurus and Global Gurus….you should be ashamed of yourself for being so sloppy in your voting software when options are available to prevent what you allowed to happen. Many people were scammed of thousands of dollars…..totalling millions due to your sloppiness.

    I didn’t like your PR piece from the moment I read it. “when we installed IP checking software earlier this year?????” Give me a backwards flip…..Just saying…..something here smells like a turd!

    Would you like to change your story now, or are you going to go after the people who screwed you over and destroyed your credibility? I know that software gave you those addresses, and I know you can trace them. The court would order it.

    btw…..I follow you on Twitter, and I follow your top leaders. Many of them follow me back. I’m about ready to go ballistic, as this throws into doubt the validity of your WHOLE list. Oh….and all your other Leader Lists? Did you have the same problem with those lists? Do you know how many times I have quoted your information as being accurate? It boggles the mind. Hell, we should all sue you for being so foolish.

    I say, “you had best hunt those dogs down and put them away.”

    @steadfast….you idiot. Your not as internet savy as I had thought. Your stories are being double checked by a group here that collectively knows more about more things than all your PC combined.

    I happen to know a few things about the internet. Leadership Gurus has the addresses. Shut up and stop the BS.

  194. letsendit@life permalink
    January 13, 2013 2:26 pm

    Think i made a mistake in my previous comment. I believe Matt is still in the biz.

  195. freedomhaha permalink
    January 13, 2013 6:12 pm

    Letssendit- Thanks for sharing.I hope you stick around and add some valuable information from the early days that can help people that are looking at possibly joining the LIFE business. Being around from the late 90’s can give a different perspective than most of us on here that got started later. I personally wish that I knew that TEAM had a history that dated back because I would have been out of there so quick had I known that they have been pulling the same garbage for years.

  196. No Team For Me permalink
    January 13, 2013 8:22 pm

    Based on all the comments here and on the FB page, I think we would have a pretty good case for a class action lawsuit. Seems to me it would be easy to prove there was obvious deception going on and there were substantial loses for a LARGE amount of people. I believe this would be a bigger case than the Quixtar/Pokorny class action suit. At least with Quixtar, they had a legitimate product that was supposed to be the product focused on, and they were making attempts to do things in an ethical way.

    Team/Life’s Policies & Proceedures and track record of carnage should make this case worth several times the amount of the Quixtar case. I think this could be $50-100 million if handled by a good law firm.

  197. letsendit@life permalink
    January 13, 2013 8:25 pm

    Raquel i believe you are correct. I was reading over a ton of the information on here and came across a few different articles on the various rt/pc who had left. In jumping back and forth I mistakenly thought i read Matt was still involved. After not being in team for a few years now finding out diamonds and other higher achieving people have left is just so crazy. I applaud yourself and the others for making sure people know how crazy things are with team/life. This site is an amazing resource!

  198. Melanie Morgan permalink
    January 13, 2013 10:18 pm


    Welcome to the site! 🙂 Thanks for sharing and I am sincerely sorry to you and everyone else on our team that have been hurt by this farce. If you ever feel like you would like to speak privately, you can contact me through my personal FB page.

    I am glad you found your way to this site. Did you do a search on something particular or how did you find this site? There is a list on here of so many that have left, all of the one’s I have spoken to, left for the same basic unethical reasons, and most of those reasons you can find on this site!

    Glad you are here, keep sharing!

  199. January 14, 2013 8:14 am

    FYI – Scott Allen has approved more comments from TEAM/LIFE proponents on his article about the Leadership Gurus voting rigging. Check it out if you want to see how they interpret the evidence.

  200. January 14, 2013 8:23 am

    Also, Orrin’s latest post features Larry Allswede and talks about the value of testimonies over titles.

    From his post:

    Credentialist focus on titles while creators focus on leadership. Leaders are leaders because people trust them and follow them, not because of titles. In other words, testimonies trump titles every time! It was 1994, when I quit my MBA from the University of Michigan, that I made my personal decision to stop focusing on titles and build a life of testimony.

    Does this mean we’ll see an end to phrases like, “New York Times Best Selling Author Orrin Woodward,” “Orrin Woodward, one of the top ten leadership gurus in the world,” and “IAB Top Leader Award Winner for 2011 Orrin Woodward” ?

    As for Larry’s story, good for him. I’m glad that he has found gainful employment during this difficult economic period. I hope the other twelve applicants to the position that Larry ultimately got were able to find jobs that they love and provide for their families as well.

  201. AlmostIn permalink
    January 14, 2013 8:58 am

    Do you think that maybe Larry Allswede got the job because the virtual school couldn’t afford to pay the bachelor/masters degreed applicants what they are worth because of their education so they chose Larry because he didn’t have those credentials/titles and that they could afford? Did he mention that the job qualifications required for this position were bachelor/masters degreed applicants? Just a another perspective for all those “liber” educated people and what they fail too mention might be “details” that individuals may assess altogether differently about formal education and a liber education.

    Alot of the time an applicant going into let’s say “retail” as a “customer service specialist” will be one without any formal education, but a formal educationed/ degreed individual will not be considered for the job because they are over-qualified for that type of postion–mainly because it does not require formal education to obtain that type of position.

  202. AlmostIn permalink
    January 14, 2013 9:29 am

    FYI–Robert Kiyaski was mentioned as someone not to take financial advice from.
    Here’s the link. Again: Be careful who you listen to as being expert/gurusin chosen or multiple areas of life. LIFE promotes Robert Kiyaski as being a leader in succeeding in a residual income type business.

  203. freedomhaha permalink
    January 14, 2013 9:49 am

    Concerning the discourse on Scott’s article: I think what the teamsters need to look at is why all of these critics exists. Why does at least “smoke” exist around everything that they do? If they have the character that they claim we would have nothing to go off.

    Another logical fallacy they like to use is that the critics exist because of jealously created by the success. I call baloney on this one, guys. Plenty of people in the world are successful and wealthy, but don’t have a community of people volunteering combined hundreds of hours with the purpose of bringing them down. It is not the success of others that brings we here so often. In fact it is the direct opposite of that. It is the failure of others that brings me back to this community. If I stand by while 97% of the people in TEAM are scammed than I am just as bad as those purely evil criminals in the PC.

  204. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    January 14, 2013 10:05 am

    Amthrax: surely you gest…that one hyperlink to OW’s new blog regarding L. Allwede (a LIFE Coach Leader per his fB page, and former IT Team customer support), etc. Okay, let me get this right: because the guy listened to CDs fanatically and hustled recruits for 10,000 hrs, and admittedly didn’t find himself to well aligned in advanced education, he got THE J.O.B. in education? Right?

    We see in that blog by OW, he recounted Larry’s letter, and in there Larry goes on and on about how he had no degree, no advanced degree, not even a 2 yr degree, etc.–painted himself like a real loser at first, but how he came to have the winning halo once they saw his “other” talents and that they were so impressed with his “Liber” education.

    Then I do a search on him and he’s got himself listed as the “Class of 2005 · “Marketing · Business Administration · East Lansing, Michigan”, the very same year he says he had that interview and got it because he was, tongue-in-cheek, a “CD addict”….exaggerations about how he ended up so admired/hired by the Clintondale Virtual K12 school as Community Liaison?

    Excerpt from L. Allswede’s letter to OW, as reprinted by OW on his current blog page that Amthrax had given a link to (and note: I checked his photo out on multiple sites, so this IS the same L.A.):
    “Let’s fast forward 5 1/2 years later. In the Spring of 2011, I caught wind of a job opening for a virtual school. I applied. The problem? The applicants were required to have a MINIMUM of a BS Degree, “Preferred” to have a Masters Degree, year of Student teaching, a year of community service, and a whole laundry list of other qualifications that I did NOT have. I only have SOME college, but I did not finish. I do not even have an associates degree, let alone a MASTERS degree.”

    He also listed himself as 4 yrs at Michigan State U on LinkdIn; and as a 2005 GRADUATE of Michigan State University on Facebook.

    Okay, I guess he wasn’t such a non-degree’d “loser with no degree” who beat others out for the job, eh? Or else, he, too is a liar. Another person touting himself as a devout Christian, too.

    Doggone it, if I am wrong here, I’ll send the guy a personal letter of apology, but if I’m not: then shame on all of them for lying to their minions and the world AGAIN!!

  205. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    January 14, 2013 10:12 am

    CORRECTION ABOUT LARRY A.: 2005 was the year he checked out LIFE, and it was the same year he graduated from college. He got the job at the virtual school in 2011, claiming he was a college non-finisher. How I had written things in prior post could be confusing.

  206. January 14, 2013 10:15 am

    @ageofwisdom – good verifying Larry’s Facebook and LinkedIn pages.

    My comment to Larry was more along the lines of, “Be grateful for your job, because there were 12 other applicants who didn’t get it. You don’t need to gloat about it.” TEAM/LIFE likes to put themselves on a pedestal and denigrate those who have jobs, those who went to college, those who don’t join their business. You can see it in the comments on Orrin’s post.

    Now, did Larry mispresent himself to the school as a graduate or did he misrepresent himself in the letter that Orrin posted on his site? Both are bad; it would be good to know which one.

  207. freedomhaha permalink
    January 14, 2013 10:21 am

    Can they say one thing that is above board? Must be tough being them trying to keep their stories straight and chose which lie to tell and when.

  208. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    January 14, 2013 10:27 am

    Amthrax: addendum on the Larry A. story (see my prior post and correction post) and what seems to be more lies re: his education status. (We know this reprinted letter was written to OW long after he graduated from college, and 5.5 yrs after being in LIFE/Team, etc.) So today 1/14/2013, with his education data splattered all over the internet for the world to see the truth, he has the nerve to thank all of the folks on OW’s blog page regarding his “hardship-come-winner story”:
    “January 14, 2013 at 12:36 pm
    Thanks Orrin for finding value in my story enough to publish it on your blog. I am humbled. God truly gets the glory!

    I appreciate all the wonderful feedback from everyone also. I hope this story helps. Stacey and I are just getting started and the future is looking brighter than ever for all who are involved!!

    We love and respect our leaders so much and cannot thank you guys enough! I can’t wait to see just how far we can take this thing called LIFE! 1,000,000 and beyond, here we come!

    Good bless,
    Larry Allswede”

    On can only shake one’s head in disgust at more lies coming out of this group! WHY would you deny you are class of 2005 st Michigan State University! To make it look like your success comes from being a CD addict and salesman “leadership coach”? HOnestly, I don’t think I can take much more of their lies and deception.

    [Editor’s note: corrected date]

  209. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    January 14, 2013 10:33 am

    Amthrax: if you list yourself as a 2005 graduate of Michigan State University and you have 100 friends on fB, I don’ think you’d lie about that, do you? I can’t imagine lying to 100 of my friends about my education…really can’t. So I speculate the letter to OW was some kind of an exaggerated “put on”….truly do. He’s friends with LIFErs on fB, too, like CB, etc.

  210. January 14, 2013 10:41 am

    Well, I don’t know if there’s a way in FB or LinkedIn to say that I went to such-and-such a school but didn’t graduate.

  211. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    January 14, 2013 11:04 am

    Amthrax: he calls himself: “Michigan State University
    Class of 2005 · Marketing · Business Administration · East Lansing, Michigan” (appears under his formal education section on fB)

    If you only studied for a few years, you would not list yourself as the Class of 2005. That would be unheard of. Example: my husband did two years at University of Wisconsin….on facebook, he might list he attending, but he would NEVER have listed himself as the class of 1977 in Engineering if he didn’t graduate there. Even IF this guy finished all but one course, he would NOT be entitled to list himself as the Class of 2005.

  212. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    January 14, 2013 11:28 am

    Amthrax: and if one is going to tout the religious praise, perhaps one should get rid of My Space site posts that go back (7 yrs total, but lots of stuff in the 5-6 yr frame left to read, prior to engagement/marriage) touting nothing but bands, bars, broads, and drinking. (Yes, same photo of him as on other sites); actually I think this is very likely not so unusual given the gent’s age, and I’m not sitting in judgment of youthful folly, but there seems to be some non-critical thinking going on with this fellow now being touted by OW when put in the reference frame of fibbin’ about an education for the sake of sensationalism, and using that supposed non-educated status to get edified about now in OW promoting his/Demille’s new book coming out in April, i.e., ‘Leadershift’ (should have removed the “i” in that title, and I’d buy it)

    (Oh! And by the way, one place he had himself listed as some kind of LIFE trouble-shooter or something with the bigwigs.)

    history of bars/drinking and broads:

  213. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    January 14, 2013 11:30 am

    Amthrax: further clarification: he specifically had to go in and type it that he was the Class of 2005 of MSU on facebook….I know that for a fact…you, the owner of the page type that stuff in.

  214. January 14, 2013 11:35 am

    I just posted a new article about misrepresentation and Larry.

    Please move your comments about Larry over to that thread. Thanks.

  215. January 14, 2013 11:43 am

    I’ll add the Myspace page to the post I just published.

  216. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    January 14, 2013 12:24 pm

    Amthrax: found a lot of stuff, but this should say it all: Larry Allswede appears in the Winter of 2007 (page 3) edition of the Michigan State University Alumni Band Association Newsletter called Encore:
    I also found a MSU PDF file mentioning him:
    From Michigan State University PDF file about ‘Day of Rudimental Percussion’ dated 10/15/2006, under this paragraph:
    ”Dom Casola marched in the Spartan Marching Band from 1990‐1992, during which time he also did two of the Michigan State Complines. He has been teaching high school drumlines for the past 15 years. He has worked with such groups as Leslie HS, Everett HS, Howell HS, and St. Johns HS, and is currently working with Lansing Eastern HS and East Grand Rapids HS. MNY F Dom’s former students have gone to march in university drumlines and drum corps throughout the country. Two of his former students have bee the past two section leaders for the MSU Drumline, Larry Allswede and Jordon Novak. Dom is a current bass drummer of the Detroit Pistons Drumline.”

  217. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    January 14, 2013 12:26 pm

    Amthrax: sorry! I was so busy researching..didn’t see you started a new thread…can you move my posts?

  218. January 14, 2013 12:38 pm

    There’s no easy way to move comments from one post to another (without lots of copying and pasting). Just post any future comments about Larry over on the dedicated post.

  219. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    January 14, 2013 1:03 pm

    Amthrax: I just moved all of mine over to the correct thread, in sequence

  220. No Team For Me permalink
    January 14, 2013 9:32 pm

    This isn’t really on topic but I didn’t know where to post this..

    Raquel, Melanie, etc – Should we be able to have a class action suit for those of us who were in Quixtar and gave up our incomes with them to move to MonaVie with Orrin under deceptive business practices? We were not told the real story regarding Orrin being in trouble with Quixtar Legal Compliance issues, we were not told about the $3 million etc. I would think the entire group of people who were misled and transferred to MV should be able to have a case. And if memory serves me right, there were reportedly around 50,000 people who had their incomes affected by this move.

  221. Melanie Morgan permalink
    January 14, 2013 9:48 pm

    No Team For Me~

    There clearly so much deception, lies, misleading, misrepresentation and collectively the evidence is quite damning. Just the information and research done on I believe would be interesting to a large law firm.

  222. Rascal Teamster permalink
    January 15, 2013 3:48 am

    It will always be to save people and get out the truth. It will never, unfortunately as people have lost tens of thousands, be about the money. The lawyers will get most of that.

    Class action…….It has a pretty ring to it, doesn’t it?

  223. No Team For Me permalink
    January 15, 2013 8:34 am

    Rascal Teamster – I agree, there wouldn’t be any money in it for us. But I believe the cause is too important. There are too many people who are wasting $5-10,000/year, year after year. Remember, all it takes for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing.

  224. Rascal Teamster permalink
    January 15, 2013 8:42 am

    Amen brothers & sisters. I’m in it for the cause. You can out me down in the “spent $5k + per year for 5.5 yrs and sold one business and 40 acres of timber to do it” category. I don’t want anyone to go through that crap. Almost broke me on many levels…..

    @No Team
    I just want people to be realistic. We aren’t going to get our money back. We’re just going to deal with evil and stop future suffering.

    I think Raquel had mentioned that people might be ablt to get some of their money back. I just don’t see it.

  225. freedomhaha permalink
    January 15, 2013 9:39 am

    Rascal- First off I love the consistent dynamite information you bring to this community. Second, I want to echo everything that you said. I have given, I don’t know, 50+ hours on here to help stop the pure evil that is TEAM for free. Money is not my motivation unless you include saving it for others. Sign me up for when I can do more.

  226. Major Dave Stoner permalink
    January 15, 2013 3:21 pm

    Ha! What a crock of shit! Those assclowns call themselves leaders? No character or integrity there. I hope they lose everything they own when the shit hits the fan!! I am so glad I’m done with that brainwashing culture! Eric Blumdahl is a sleazy lowlife womanizer who should’ve had his fat ass kicked out of TEAM a long time ago. George Guzzardo is a lying phony who can’t practice what he preaches. I pray that these Scumbags finally lose their lying hypocritical cult by the years end! Warn anyone you know who is approached by these fiends to avoid them like the plague!!

  227. Chris permalink
    January 20, 2013 12:20 am

    Wow didn’t know this! Get the word out! I wander how many people know this…his whole business is built on his perceived character and how great a leader he is..if this gets out…I can’t see how his perceived reputation and status of a guru can be seen credible…I can’t see how people can promote him like they do…it seems this so called great leader has some explaining to do…how can people not question this? The truth is unraveling.

  228. CGC permalink
    January 21, 2013 11:29 am

    Team policy: Deceptive Postings
    Postings that are false, misleading, or deceptive are prohibited. This includes, but is not limited to, false or deceptive postings relating to the LIFE opportunity, LIFE’s products and services, and/or your biographical information and credentials. Professionalism
    You must ensure that your postings are truthful and accurate. This requires that you fact check all material you post online. You should also carefully check your postings for spelling, punctuation, and grammatical errors. Use of offensive language is prohibited.

    So, when will Orrin ensure his credentials are accurate?

  229. stu j permalink
    March 22, 2013 9:36 am

    are u guys all getting paid to say all this stuff someone i talked to said it might be true i cant see it myself the person who said this is in LIFE im new into it and wondering what to do about it join or not jointhat is the question

  230. March 22, 2013 10:15 am

    @stu j – I will speak for myself. No one has paid me nor is paying me to say this stuff.

    You have to do your due diligence with regards to this business. Part of the decision-making should be investigating the good and bad about the business. The people contributing here have raised what they believe are valid and legitimate concerns about the history of those in LIFE and of the business opportunity itself. We’ve posted facts that bolster our argument (bankruptcy, foreclosures, gamed credentials, compensation plan analysis, etc.).

    Regardless of what you do, keep your critical thinking skills intact. Don’t accept everything they say as gospel.

  231. MemoryLame permalink
    March 22, 2013 11:07 am

    Stu J, we are not paid to say anything we post here. Ironically, we weren’t paid anything to promote Team either. Lol!

    Seriously, there are sites that tag MLM websites to drive traffic to sell advertising. You can see there is no advertising here.

    This group is made up of ex-team members like myself, who foolishly put money and time into MLM that paid no profit to 99.999% of its members. Many of us remain anonymous because we feel that people we care for that are still in would listen to us even less if they knew we posted here (the TEAM system will practically indoctrinate you not to allow any opinion to have weight in your life if it is critical of “the system” or it’s leaders), and because some have been threatened with suit because they posted openly and honestly with their true identity.

    Welcome to the truth!

  232. ageofwisdom51 permalink
    March 22, 2013 11:30 am

    Well, I, for one, have now read it all, as the old saying goes. Can you imagine telling their poor confused people that this site PAYS people to make negative statements? Our family doesn’t need to get paid….we’ve got plenty to say FOR FREE about what this business did to our family’s relationships. Poor members are being told all sorts of sophomoric claptrap to keep them corraled and caged, just like the big OW himself wrote about in his love of looking over successful in filtrative military tactics like he blogged about last year.

  233. bookitty permalink
    May 24, 2013 10:10 am

    In reading all of this it is hard to believe what is truth and what is not. Anyone can post whatever they want on the internet and it soon becomes the truth. I am not claiming it isn’t true but there is two sides to everything. Also there is more here than what we can see.

  234. May 24, 2013 12:03 pm

    @bookitty – do you have specific questions that you want addressed? This forum allows both sides of the argument to be heard.

  235. noteam permalink
    May 24, 2013 7:42 pm

    Bookitty – I think you are right. Anyone can post anything they want and soon it becomes the truth. I think that’s the reason Orrin Woodward and all his scamsters continue to link to each other the same posts – an effort to make everyone believe all their crap.
    Fortunately, the real truth is starting to come out as so many of us have realized we were not the only ones having doubts about the integrity of the Team/Life business.

  236. bookitty permalink
    May 25, 2013 6:31 am

    noteam – I have listened to a few cd’s thanks to my grandson because I was concerned about what he was getting into. He did not try to involve me. The cd’s I have listened to have merit but I am not sold on the business. I don’t understand the concept of a book and cd a month. What I can tell you it has improved my grandson’s marriage and their communication skills. I just find it hard to believe how anyone buys into something like this and makes that much money.

  237. June 14, 2013 2:25 am

    While I am concerned, I did notice that one of your links is entirely made up. The link named “Global Guru Criteria” links to a photo in your own blog, not the actual site, which is here:
    I already said that I am concerned, and I will certainly rethink some things. That said: if the truth is on your side, you shouldn’t have to fabricate evidence.
    You are still at it, years later. How sad.

  238. Rascal Teamster permalink
    June 14, 2013 4:06 am

    You find a bad link, and then say, “how sad?” Then continue to say, “after all these years, you’re still at it?” Seriously???

    Still at what? Providing bad links?

    You’re either being petty or are just plain silly. Maybe, and it’s a long shot, you’re just trying to help us here.

    I should, in the case that you are trying to help, thank you on Amthrax’s behalf for helping fix the bad link. We definitely don’t want bad links when we’re trying to point the finger at some truth.

    Any help you can further give us to correct bad links is appreciated.

  239. June 14, 2013 5:29 am

    @hunting.targ – The link went to a photo on my site to show that — at one point — the text was there on the Global Guru site. It’s not about fabricating evidence as much as it is preserving the past.

    In the meantime, I put some explanatory text explaining what that link is (i.e. a screenshot taken at the time of the post’s publication).

  240. TruthSeeker permalink
    June 15, 2013 5:07 pm

    @HuntingTarg, congratulations, I am going to award you the Amthrax ‘jackass of the month’ award. I think that would be awesome Amthrax. Create a poll on here with the top 5 stupidest comments for the previous month, and let your readers vote on who the biggest jackass was. At the end of the year, you would have 12 monthly jackasses who we could all vote on for ‘jackass of the year’. What does everyone think of that?

    What planet do these people come from?

  241. Melanie Morgan permalink
    June 15, 2013 7:01 pm

    Truthseeker- You are killing, that is hilarious, I am in tears….that is the best one yet!

  242. Scott Allen permalink
    August 2, 2013 3:54 pm

    “Scott says that he’s a ‘client and a friend’ of Orrin’s so he’s operating from a biased position.”

    Everyone is biased — you clearly are. I did the ethical thing in being completely transparent and introducing that possible source of bias up front. A financial or personal relationship is a *possible* source of bias, and should be disclosed, as I did. It doesn’t mean that the content IS biased, any more than your claim that you’ve never been paid for anything related to Amthrax means you’re NOT biased.

    To be perfectly clear, I was NOT paid by Orrin to write that article. In fact, at the time I wrote the article, I wasn’t actively engaged with him as a client — before and after, yes, but not at that point in time. He contacted me and asked me about it, and I was a) pissed, and b) smelled a rat.

    As it has turned out, that sense of smell wasn’t unfounded. I’ve posted an update on the article pointing out that the new owner of that Top 30 Global Leadership Gurus site is a phantom. Whoever it is has done everything they can to hide their tracks as to who they actually are. Orrin & Chris filed suit and had to have them serviced by email because the registration information is all bogus. I won’t even get into how many European laws that site is violating.

    The charges are false, period. Follow the money. This is someone with a professional vested interest in defaming Orrin and Chris. The truth will come out in the end.

    And to “TruthSeeker”: Really, you’d stake your professional reputation on it? No, you’re not. I am. I did when I posted that article, and I knew I was, and I was willing to, once I started investigating it. What’s your real name? Put up or shut up.

    Try to find one shred of indication that I’m a “two-bit huckster con man”. Yes, I’ve proudly been an advocate of the network marketing industry and do what I can to improve the reputation of the industry and protect companies and individuals from the critics who will simply never be happy. But that’s all you’ll find.

    And just for the record — no, I’m not the investment adviser charged with insider trading — different Scott Allen. Or the gay porn star. Or the North Carolina death row inmate. Or the Virginia sex offender. Kinda sucks having a very common name, but there’s plenty of stuff about me online going back 10+ years — my credentials are easily verified.

  243. Vogel permalink
    August 6, 2013 4:31 pm

    Scott Allen: “Everyone is biased…”

    Ackkkk! Nonsense. That’s such an incredibly disingenuous anti-intellectual argument. Don’t try to duck the issue by tarring everyone else – i.e., people you don’t even know anything about.

    Scott Allen: “He contacted me and asked me about it, and I was a) pissed, and b) smelled a rat.”

    Blechhh. What a horrid response. Of all the things in the word that make you irate it’s people being mean to Orrin??? Surely you must have an inkling of how many people he’s deceived and screwed over. He’s the last person deserving of anyone’s sympathy. Are you like some kind of anti-superhero who comes to the rescue of crooked MLM despots in distress? It’s a rat…it’s a snake…no — it’s Weaselman!!!

    Scott Allen: “As it has turned out, that sense of smell wasn’t unfounded.”

    What I smell is an amateurish lickspittle trying to do PR for a crooked MLM con artist.

    Scott Allen: “The charges are false, period.”

    First, what charges are you referring to specifically? Secondly, I laugh when people like you say things like “FALSE…PERIOD!” in a situation like this. Because there is no basis for your proclamation, the bravado comes off as insincere to say the least.

    Scott Allen: “Follow the money.

    Oh good grief! From where to where exactly? The only money trail I’m aware of is the one from the pockets of LIFE/TEAM victims to Orrin’s bank account. There is no evidence that the “trail” you alluded to exists at all. You’re just trying to foment fear/uncertainty/doubt (FUD), and, putting it mildly, I don’t much care for fudrakers.

    Scott Allen: “This is someone with a professional vested interest in defaming Orrin and Chris. The truth will come out in the end.”

    No one has proven defamation and you haven’t produced one iota of evidence that there is anyone involved who has a “professional vested interest”. You don’t even know who it is that operates the website. You’re just taking random potshots in the dark hoping you might hit something.

    Scott Allen: “And to “TruthSeeker”: What’s your real name? Put up or shut up.”

    Um…that offends me deeply. Who are you to barge in here telling regular contributors to shut up and trying to bully them into revealing their identity? Do you think you’re a badass because you posted all this nonsense using your real name? All it shows is that you have an abnormally high threshold for embarrassment.

    Scott Allen: “Try to find one shred of indication that I’m a ‘two-bit huckster con man’. Yes, I’ve proudly been an advocate of the network marketing industry and do what I can to improve the reputation of the industry and protect companies and individuals from the critics who will simply never be happy. But that’s all you’ll find.”

    ROFL. Oh lordy, you are funny — unintentionally. Your backhanded denial/confession is more than enough to convince me that you’re a two-bit huckster conman (and that’s probably being overly generous by about a bit and a half)

    Scott Allen: “And just for the record — no, I’m not the investment adviser charged with insider trading — different Scott Allen. Or the gay porn star. Or the North Carolina death row inmate. Or the Virginia sex offender. Kinda sucks having a very common name, but there’s plenty of stuff about me online going back 10+ years — my credentials are easily verified.”

    Hmmm. Isn’t that EXACTLY what an insider-trading-gay-porn-star-death-row-sex-offender-MLM-apologist would say?

  244. Rascal Teamster permalink
    August 6, 2013 5:03 pm

    Vogel, great response. What really grabbed me was when Scott typed this (your pull quote from his comments)

    Scott Allen: “Try to find one shred of indication that I’m a ‘two-bit huckster con man’. Yes, I’ve proudly been an advocate of the network marketing industry and do what I can to improve the reputation of the industry and protect companies and individuals from the critics who will simply never be happy. But that’s all you’ll find.”

    What really got me about this line was that their actually is a job position where a guy can make a living protecting the images of MLM companies and gurus from the critics. Seriously??? What frigging kind of industry is this that it needs someone to protect it’s image??? Are their really that many people falsely accused of wrong doing here, or is this industry really just that crooked?

    I think what you smell, Scott, is cheese. And where you find cheese, you’ll always find rats. And if this industry is that full of rats, I suppose it would need a Pied Piper.

    Official Pied Piper to the networking industry. Very interesting job title to a job I’d never want….Defending the scammers. Where’s Mike Rowe? I have a new script for Dirty Jobs.

  245. TruthSeeker permalink
    August 6, 2013 5:59 pm

    Vogel wrote, “Overly generous by about a bit and a half.” Now that is funny. That would make senor Allen a half bit huckster huh? See even us “critics” can do math sometimes

  246. Vogel permalink
    August 6, 2013 6:08 pm

    Rascal said: “What really got me about this line was that their actually is a job position where a guy can make a living protecting the images of MLM companies and gurus from the critics. Seriously??? What frigging kind of industry is this that it needs someone to protect it’s image??? Are their really that many people falsely accused of wrong doing here, or is this industry really just that crooked?”

    Worse still, what does it say about the industry that they have to rely on guys like this ineffectual halfwit and Troy Drooley to buff the industry’s tarnished image? That is a sad indictment indeed.

  247. Vogel permalink
    August 6, 2013 6:15 pm

    TruthSeeker said: “Overly generous by about a bit and a half.” Now that is funny. That would make senor Allen a half bit huckster huh? See even us “critics” can do math sometimes.”

    ROFL! Yup, works out to exactly one-sixteenth of a dollar, or “half a piece of eight” in pirate currency (the origin of the phrase “two bits” is quite interesting).

  248. Out in Pa permalink
    August 6, 2013 6:22 pm

    @ Scott Allen

    Here is a different perspective for you Scott.

    I have talked to a Pastor of one church and three Assistant Pastor’s including the Assistant Pastor at Pastor Dickie’s Church. Three different faiths. All of them used the following words and I quote them, “cult”, “con men”, ‘pyramid” with the exception of Pastor Dickie’s Assistant. He told me and I quote, “Pastor Dickie has been overwhelmed with people inquiring why he is no longer involved with Team. He advised me to go talk to the Pastor of my church and discuss what my faith and the bible teaches about greed, materialism, worship of false idols, and money.” I also have counseled recently with a clinical psychiatrist of over 30 years and the first word out of his mouth was and I quote him “cult” in reference to this “business”.

    I wonder if you can answer this Scott…Why do the Team followers use a script to talk to people about this “business opportunity”? Why will they not tell what it is about?? Why do they try to get you to sign up in the first 24 to 48 hours?? Why do they take you to a wealthy person’s house to show the plan?? Why do they withhold information that the real money/profit sharing is not made on the sale of the “product” but on the sale of the training cd’s, dvd’s, books, and tickets to events?? And you have to be voted in to participate in that part of the “business”??? Could it be that they don’t want you to discuss with family, friends, business advisor’s, attorney’s or maybe have the time to investigate and do diligence on this wonderful “business opportunity”? Why is it that in their 38 pages of Policy and Procedure’s they claim they can take your business for any reason at any time?? Would that mean that you don’t really own anything Scott?? Is any of this possibly being deceptive in your opinion???

    Defend that Mr. Great Defender. And possibly do you think people do not give their real identity on here because of the past history of “litigation and law suit happy leaders of this organization”???

    These are my opinions and experiences Scott Allen.

  249. Vogel permalink
    August 6, 2013 6:32 pm

    I felt it necessary to post a few comments in response to the apologist screed about Orrin Woodward that Scott posted on his blog. It was so devoid of facts and insight that it made me wince. I felt like I was reading an essay penned by a below average high school student.

    Scott said: “Orrin’s also a client and a friend.”

    As others pointed out, this establishes from the outset that Scott has a personal and financial conflict of interest, which is important and cannot simply be swept under the rug.

    Scott said: “But some people don’t like him, or what he does, or what he stands for. To some extent, that comes with the territory. Some people simply don’t like network marketing, period. Or the personal development industry. Some people have had bad experiences, for whatever reason. When you take a stand, when you put yourself out there like he does, you’re going to be a target.”

    I really despise the misleading use of terms like “personal development industry”. Universities, gyms, churches, bookstores, psychiatrists, etc., all cater to personal development, but in no way do they represent an industry sector. What Scott really should have said is something like “self-help guru wannabe”, why not just say that instead of obfuscating?

    Secondly, Scott seems to be completely oblivious to the reasons why so many people have been critical of Orrin Woodward, LIFE/TEAM, and predatory MLM companies. I say “seems” because I don’t think he’s really unaware but rather is just pretending to not know because ignoring the elephant makes it easier for him to carry out this ill conceived PR whitewash campaign that he’s conducting on behalf of his CLIENT.

    Scott said: “I know Orrin and Chris, and this just isn’t consistent with what I know about them. Let’s apply a little bit of critical thinking: 1. They simply have no need to game it. 2. If they had wanted to game it, you wouldn’t know it.”

    Oh good grief. Didn’t Scott say something at the outset about CRITICAL THINKING? This is what I was referring to when I mentioned high-school level intellect. The first threadbare argument is akin to saying a rich man wouldn’t possibly steal because he already has money. Absurd! The second argument is no better. These MLM blowhards try to “game” EVERYTHING – hence the name CON GAME! They’ve been caught red-handed time and time again. Amthrax has already done excellent research on this and I’ve done my part as well. Scott, presumably for a price, stuck his head so far up Orrin’s arse that he can’t see the forest for the trees.

    Scott said: “And I’ve talked to Orrin about it. They simply didn’t do it.”

    Bwaahahahaha! THAT is what Scott meant by CRITICAL THINKING? He makes me embarrassed that we’re the same species. I’d feel so much better to learn that he’s actually a chimp with internet access. If he’s not, he should keep hitting himself in the forehead with a brick until he understands the difference between critical thinking and blithering idiocy.

    Scott said: “They’ve also checked around within their organization, and it looks like they have hundreds of people who can verify voting for them, not 40 (2% of 2,000), as the site implies.”

    See previous comment. Apply brick to forehead, Rinse and repeat.

    Scott said: “My first challenge to Evgeniy Chetvertakov, the current owner of, is this: present your evidence. “

    That’s so laughable. Scott doesn’t even know if this person exists and yet he’s starting up with this this little one-man puppet-show soliloquy. Reminds me of Clint talking to that empty chair. How sad…cringe-worthy!

    Scott said: “Following a letter from Orrin’s office to the site owner asking for the evidence, none has been provided. What type of alleged leadership site would make an allegation without providing evidence? Draw your own conclusions.”

    That’s not surprising. It was subsequently revealed on Scott’s blog that nobody by that name lives at the address they had gleaned from the site registry. Why did Scott act so indignant that he didn’t get an answer? That’s not evidence of a conspiracy; it’s evidence that Scott is a flippin idiot!

    Scott said: “Let’s stick to the facts. And the fact of the matter is, Orrin’s and Chris’s credentials are indisputable.”

    That’s not a fact; it’s a vague assertion; and a misleading one to boot — and you’re bumbling this PR effort BADLY!!!

    Scott said: “Use your brain. Look at the facts. These accusations just don’t add up.”

    Said the strawman.

    Scott said: “We’ll see how the lawsuit runs its course — the truth will come out, but for now, it’s clear that the new owner of the Leadership Gurus site has gone to a lot of effort to conceal their real identity and location.”

    Like Orrin did with his multiple DBA names and poison-pen anonymous blogging? Tsk, tsk! That is a shame isn’t it. What a hypocrite!

  250. Vogel permalink
    August 6, 2013 6:42 pm

    Oh man, I just saw this self-indicting comment on Scotty’s blog and I nearly choked (a variant on the MLM classic “fake it until you make it”).


    The footnote should read:

    “And if you’re a bad actor, act like an MLM expert”

    Scott, my man – you are a bona fide CLOWN!

  251. Memory Lame permalink
    August 6, 2013 7:51 pm

    Scott said: “Following a letter from Orrin’s office to the site owner asking for the evidence, none has been provided. What type of alleged leadership site would make an allegation without providing evidence? Draw your own conclusions.”

    So what you’re saying, Scott, is that Orrin had no question about this guy’s credibility or the legitimacy of his site when his TEAMbots were using the SAME site to lend to Orrin and Chris’s edification. However, as soon as it strips their ranking it suddenly becomes an “alleged leadership site…without providing evidence”.

    Ha! That’s just an amazing case you’ve made there, buddy. I hope you provide us more material by posting again soon.

    Scott said: “Let’s stick to the facts. And the fact of the matter is, Orrin’s and Chris’s credentials are indisputable.”

    Yes, yes their credentials. Orrin won a benchmark award that was so special they only ever offered it to one other person before him, and quit offering it after – because NOBODY thought it was that important! Chris speaks Japanese, even in his sleep and he and Orrin were two of the greatest out of thousands of GM engineers. They are so good at community building that after 20 years they STILL don’t have near the million people Orrin’s hero, Dexter did in the SAME sham RECRUITING INDUSTRY (not personal development industry, personal development is just the TOOL remember).

    Could you do me a favor, Scott, tell me how MECHANICAL engineering awards give someone credentials in a group where no MECHANICS really apply? Don’t tell me that “principles” apply there either. Unless you mean the principle that when you treat people like machines and try to train them to be cogs in the wheel of your system, people get hurt and lives get ruined.

  252. TruthSeeker permalink
    August 6, 2013 9:10 pm

    Crickets chirping……………..where is Scott the half-bit huckster?

  253. Vogel permalink
    August 7, 2013 8:29 am

    Memory Lame said: “So what you’re saying, Scott, is that Orrin had no question about this guy’s credibility or the legitimacy of his site when his TEAMbots were using the SAME site to lend to Orrin and Chris’s edification. However, as soon as it strips their ranking it suddenly becomes an “alleged leadership site…without providing evidence”. “

    That’s the problem in a nutshell isn’t it? Scott is trying to bamboozle everyone with this idiotic cover story that either he or Orrin presumably invented. We already know that Woodward and Brady and their organization repeatedly hyped the awards from IAB and as evidence of their own credibility and expertise as leaders. However, as we are all now very well aware, both awards were bogus. These fraudulent acts were uncovered by simply performing a few Google searches and doing cursory background research. It was only then – after the fraud was revealed by Amthrax and others – that Woodward recruited this flipping idiot Scott to concoct a new cover story and run it past us in an attempt to whitewash the facts and exonerate Woodward.

    The spin-doctored back story seems to be that Orrin is the innocent victim of mean evil people who purposely tried to make him look bad by giving him awards that were in fact fake, knowing that he and Brady would go online and brag about the awards incessantly and then look like fools later when the bogus nature of the awards was revealed by Amthrax and friends. He’s referring to it all as a “smear campaign”…hysterical! He must think that the people in his organization are incredibly stupid if he expects them to fall for this.

    Are we expected to believe that Woodward and Brady were so incredibly gullible and irresponsible that they blithely accepted awards from anonymous sources, and then bragged about them loudly, without expressing any curiosity about the awarding body or conducting even a cursory background search about the awards on Google? If that’s the case, then they definitely have no place on a leadership guru list. It’s a lose-lose proposition for Woodward and Brady – either they knowingly committed a fraudulent act, in which case they’re corrupt and dishonest, or they unknowingly committed a fraudulent act, in which case they are incompetent and have no business passing themselves off as leaders.

    The other aspect of Scott’s diatribe that I found to be stunningly ridiculous is the contrived witch-hunt for some guy named Evgeniy Chetvertakov, who Scott alleges is the current owner of (but who doesn’t even seem to exist in reality). This is absurd because the identity of the site operator was revealed on Amthrax’s site back in 2011, when it was noted that the person behind the site was Arthur Camrazzi, who listed the same Arundel Rd contact address attributed now to Chetvertakov. The new Russian villain seems to be a ruse. Why would they try to sue this malicious Russian who doesn’t exist instead of Camrazzi, who was the person responsible for the website? It’s so obviously BS!

    BTW, Camrazzi s a blithering dolt too. Watch this if you can stomach it. I have a hard time believing that anyone would hire him as a speaker (although he alleges that they do). He seems mentally ill.

    Here’s more on him. I especially love the entry on Amazon where Camrazzi claims that he’s ranked as one of the Global Top 10 most influential Leadership Gurus by Gurus International — his own website!!!

    Scott’s a disingenuous fool for not acknowledging any of this. Cue the backpedalling and feigned umbrage in 3…2…1…

    Orrin’s not going to sue Camrazzi. Why would he when it appears that they were in cahoots from the get go? There is no other reasonable explanation. Instead, he’s playing out this lawsuit ruse, knowing that it will never amount to anything. It’s all for show.

  254. Vogel permalink
    August 7, 2013 9:09 am

    Here’s a webpage in which Scott takes off the mask and reveals his true agenda; i.e., he offers whitewashing services for internet reputation management and search engine optimization (SEO) to MLM companies of ill repute:

    “We help our customers remove harmful information about themselves or their companies from search results. We do not do ‘regular SEO’ – we specialize in prevention and repair of reputation threats via online and offline methods. Our services work by tracking what’s written about a client on the Web, then utilizing sophisticated “negative” search engine optimization (SEO), and aggressively promoting positive and neutral content, while at the same time pushing down those links you do not want to show.”

    Here’s a though Scott. If you simply informed your clients to not be such lying sacks of crap in the first place, then they wouldn’t have to worry about whitewashing the internet to get them out of dodge. But I guess if they did that, it would leave whorish SEO wannabes like you without a source of revenue. Now that everyone can see that you are scum, I can’t imagine you returning here except maybe to try and pass off a last lie or two, feign indignation, and then proclaim that you’re leaving and never coming back because you were disrespected; but we all know the truth. You are a bad liar who chose a bad line of work that you are bad at. Given that there is no defense for your conduct, you’ll have no choice but to run away with your tail between your legs and maybe start another anonymous cowardly attack site like the following:

  255. Rascal Teamster permalink
    August 7, 2013 9:19 am

    Vogel, you are my hero.

    And Scott, if this information is correct, you are now one of the biggest, self admitted, low life pieces of crap I’ve ever had the displeasure of reading.

    Please don’t respond to this. You no longer have anything worth saying. Go back to covering the tracks of dirty people. You’re a worm!

  256. Former Round Table permalink
    August 7, 2013 9:56 am

    Scott Allen proves that the people who defends Orrin Woodward/Chris Brady and the Life/Team pile of crap are just as creepy/scummy/crooked.

    Scott, I know a pedophile who might also be interested in your services.

  257. Vogel permalink
    August 7, 2013 9:59 am

    Oh man, this just keeps on getting worse and worse. First, a little background on Camrazzi…

    Despite taking aim at the decoy target — fictitious Russian super-villain Evgeniy Chetvertakov — Woodward and his itchy trigger-fingered lawyer should have gone after the real operator of the leadershipguru website – Arthur Camrazzi. He’s currently on the lam in Bali were he’s running sex camps, linking up male tourists with local women – seems like something along the lines of a pimp who organizes international sex junkets.

    That’s consistent with everything that Camrazzi has penned about his background: a slow-witted social outcast who never got a university degree and then failed at both business (resulting in bankruptcy) and marriage.

    As if that wasn’t ad enough, I found something about Scott Allen that’s even more disturbing than his role as chief whitewasher for Orrin and company – something so scandalously bad that it borders on a national security breach threat and could wind up getting Scott on an international hit list. Get this – he was bragging on his website in 2011 in an article entitled “My New Dream Job” about how, after failing at a business venture called “OneCoach”, he became the official blogger for Muammar Gaddafi.

    There’s no way to know whether ot not his claim is true, but by Scott’s account he was hired to do online reputation management for the now dead depot (who was shot repeatedly, burned, and dragged through the streets by the people of Libya), claiming:

    “The TRUTH is that the Libyan people LOVE Gaddafi, and the so-called “freedom fighters” are nothing but CIA-backed terrorists. Here’s how the Libyan people truly feel about their leader:”

    I am just dumbfounded over this. Gaddafi was an enemy of the US. and, by most accounts a cold-blooded psychotic supporter of terrorism against the U.S. Truth is always stranger than fiction in the F-ed up world of MLM. I think it’s time to report Scott to the US State Department as well as the FTC. They should ship his sorry ass off to Gitmo for a good water-boarding.

    [Editor’s note: Scott’s post about Gaddafi was written on April 1 as an April Fools joke]

  258. Mike Collins permalink
    August 7, 2013 10:16 am

    In a word Scott: you are a HACK. I hope you read and re-read what Vogel penned for you. You might learn a thing or two.

    Here’s a thought Scott. Perhaps you can now return the favor and hire Orrin to repair your reputation. Orrin is extremely intelligent and, I’m sure, will do a much better job on repairing your reputation than you have his. Have you read the work he has done under his Qrush pseudonym? Absolutely brilliant!

    He could start with something like this: “Contrary to popular opinion, Scott DOES NOT have a “high-school level intellect” and he is NOT a “hack.” And I should know. After all, I am Orrin Woodward. I find him to be really, really good at what I paid him to do (the Amthrax thread notwithstanding of course) I have gotten numerous positive reviews from my MLM sycophant buddies who really like what Scott wrote about me. What other proof do you need?”

    Remember Scott: You can’t roll around in shite and come out smelling like a flower.

  259. Freedomhaha permalink
    August 8, 2013 2:09 pm

    That video…..

  260. Vogel permalink
    August 8, 2013 3:47 pm

    Oh man, I know right? I cringed so badly watching that, especially knowing a thing or two about Asian sensibilities. The audience must have been in agony.

  261. Vogel permalink
    August 8, 2013 3:53 pm

    As for Scott’s April Fools knee-slapper about doing PR for the Libyan’s, I was kind of hoping that he would come back to explain that it was only a joke, and then go though contortions explaining why someone who is supposed to specialize in online reputation management services would post something so juvenile and tasteless..

  262. Freedomhaha permalink
    August 9, 2013 11:50 am

    Vogel- Or maybe he can put a spin on the fact that over 99% of people will lose money in Orrrin’s business.

  263. Vogel permalink
    August 9, 2013 12:41 pm

    Yes, FHH, that’s one of the many elephants in the room that Scotty can’t dance around.

  264. Melanie Morgan permalink
    August 13, 2013 1:58 pm


    “Orrin’s not going to sue Camrazzi. Why would he when it appears that they were in cahoots from the get go? There is no other reasonable explanation. Instead, he’s playing out this lawsuit ruse, knowing that it will never amount to anything. It’s all for show.”

    I completely agree, here’s why! Back when it was ‘Team in hiding’ or around that time, on the team-biz website if you clicked on the ‘contact’ information, you would have found none other than the very address:

    121 Arundel Rd,
    Birmingham B14 5UE
    United Kingdom

    Yup, seen it with my own eyes and even wrote down the address when I saw it because I thought it bazaar they had a U.K. address, for the contact info.

    At the time,I thought it might have something to do with the numerous LLC’s. My only regret is I didn’t take a screen shot!!!! I understand it would be speculation on my part, but I don’t need any convincing and these fraudsters, and Arthur Carmazzi all know the truth of their connection, relationship, agreement, or perhaps partners, they must have had. Let’s hope AC has the guts to stand up and be the first to practice what they preach or demonstrate some real integrity!

    As for Scott, he should be concerned more about his soul than putting his ‘reputation on the line!’ he should have thought about that BEFORE he attached himself to OW!

    And the Gaddafi example…What a poor and disturbing way to advertise (by example) of his desperation for his “new dream job.” and Not funny…but it shows me more about his true character and what he is willing to do by that example. And no surprise, he picked the MLM industry & Orrin is his client!

    Love your posts, Vogel, as always! Orrin created his OWN PR nightmare, & Scott coming on here with his BS helped his own cause, guess that’s good for Scott, isn’t that what you call “job security?” LOL

  265. Melanie Morgan permalink
    August 13, 2013 2:00 pm

    Seems Scott is the hired gun for gaming the search engines!

  266. TruthSeeker permalink
    August 13, 2013 4:29 pm

    @Melanie, you wrote,

    “I completely agree, here’s why! Back when it was ‘Team in hiding’ or around that time, on the team-biz website if you clicked on the ‘contact’ information, you would have found none other than the very address:
    121 Arundel Rd,
    Birmingham B14 5UE
    United Kingdom
    Yup, seen it with my own eyes and even wrote down the address when I saw it because I thought it bazaar they had a U.K. address, for the contact info.”

    Are you saying that “Team” had this address listed on their website at one time? Not quite following you here, need a little clarification. Thanks!

  267. Melanie Morgan permalink
    August 13, 2013 5:02 pm

    Yes Exactly, but as I said I didn’t take a screen shot, so too bad I can prove it!

  268. Vogel permalink
    August 13, 2013 5:09 pm

    Wow! Now that is interesting indeed. The thought plickens!

  269. Vogel permalink
    August 13, 2013 5:13 pm

    What was the URL at that time Melanie? Was it ?

    And when would that have been, roughly?

  270. Melanie Morgan permalink
    August 13, 2013 5:38 pm

    Yes that was the URL at the time and I wish I could remember the exact time frame. I believe it was during the Team in hiding or could have been around the beginning of MV. It struck me odd at the time I even looked the place up on Google map and it looked like it was an vacant condo type place. I just remember it striking me as very odd.

    I didn’t print the address off the site at the time, just wrote it down on a piece of paper, nor did I take a screen shot because I didn’t know what I known now, you bet I would have gotten a copy! I don’t know exactly what the connection could be but I smell fish!

    I know now Bob Cassidy was the CIO but I have no clue who would have maintained or put the information up on the website. But SOMEBODY had to put that information up and that somebody knows that address was there!

  271. Melanie Morgan permalink
    August 13, 2013 5:55 pm

    I do remember the “contact” button was real small and at the bottom of the page and honestly don’t even know why I clicked it. I did try to go back when Amthrax put up the original AC info. because I hit me and I remembered the address being the same but of course the information had changed, so I really don’t know how long it was up on the Team site either.

  272. switch permalink
    August 13, 2013 7:28 pm

    Wow,… yes, VERY interesting.

    These guys knew exactly what they were doing right from the start….and quite sadly, love to play the “free enterprise” card.

    As said before, more respect for prostitution, and drug trafficking.

  273. Melanie Morgan permalink
    August 14, 2013 8:19 pm


    Good to see ya 🙂

    “Free enterprise?” …Huh.. Ain’t nobody got time for that.. lie…there ain’t nothin “FREE” about TEAM LIfE and the only…Enter-ing slavery, sur-prise!

  274. Melanie Morgan permalink
    August 14, 2013 9:57 pm

    Do have to say it’s great being FREE, now! 🙂

    There is something I agree with Scott on,…the truth always comes out..funny how he assumes OW is honest and takes him at his word, BIG mistake, for Scott… oh that’s right he gets PAID to believe every uttered word. He doesn’t know the real OW at all, just the guy wearing the mask.. Scott has fallen for the masked guy $, & doesn’t have a clue about how they “game” everything.

    The truth will have to be discovered by others because the vain emperor’s deny, distract, divert, and will never just admit the truth. They justify, and ate pretty sue crazy! Just think if every person they screwed and were unjusty to, sued them?!

    They fear that telling the truth will get them exactly what they deserve. They and many others know what they have done, I am still amazed they call themselves Christian and ” real-leaders?”…Someone needs to teach them the difference between a real leader with influence and a dictator who bullies.

    Lets talk gaming everything perhaps Scott will get a clue. It was their EVERY intention to game their “best seller” along with everything else they did, votes to prop up their reputation ( now they pay Scott apparently) etc. they excuted their hyped up promotions and CONTEST with that exact intention in mind. They gave the orders to everyone what ‘book stores’ to purchase MORE of the same books Ironic hypocritical, yes.They would be all over berating you buying Any other books outside them.. and then forced their “best-seller” on BOM!

    Gaming has always been their game! They know they can’t earn it from outside their heavily indoctrinated, followers, it would never happen. They know those books all came from the SAME repeat buyers; that same captive audience! Just disturbing how dishonest they really are.

    Hope Arthur Casmazzi really meant what he said that he learned from having his ego ruin and lose so much in his life, that he changed, well nows his chance to prove…will he do the RIGHT THING, concerning the leadership guru revocation?

  275. noteam permalink
    August 15, 2013 7:30 pm

    Has anyone seen the latest list Orrin gamed? BusinessFromHome magazine did some kind of feature on the top leadership speakers. Guess who is listed higher than John Maxwell, Zig Ziglar, Jim Rohn? You guessed it. Is anyone actually that disoriented that they actually believe Orrin Woodward is a better speaker on leadership than these true leaders?
    also interesting is that somewhere on the blog of this site it shows some snapshot tally’s. It appears Orrin didn’t even have 10 votes when a large portion of the votes were in. But magically, in the end, our chief clown received enough votes to put him near the top of the list.
    Must have been another contest….”vote for Orrin and get to listen to a private conference call of the same material you’ve already paid thousands of dollars for and heard hundreds of times.”

  276. Vogel permalink
    August 15, 2013 8:39 pm

    Eesh! BFH is an MLM billboard-for-hire masquerading as a business magazine. For the right price they’ll say anything.

  277. Mike Collins permalink
    August 15, 2013 9:24 pm

    Vogel nailed it on this one. And it doesn’t take much $$$$. As a matter of fact, Ted nuyten is a bigger industry whore than the illustrious Troy Drooley. Imagine that………

  278. Melanie Morgan permalink
    August 15, 2013 9:26 pm

    Noteam & Vogel-

    LOL…they must be spending A LOT of ‘profit- sharing’/ (other peoples money) for THEIR reputation management?! And we know the ‘others’ have NO say in their own business & how that money is spent.

    But oh wait I’m confused, here is what Orrin Woodward says:

    “True leadership is not a position based upon titles, but a responsibility based upon respect.”

    “Todays age worries too much about image and not enough about integrity.” Wouldn’t Orrin’s belief make Scotts’ job unecessary? 🙂

    I would say Orrin is an epic fail in both.

    Here’s another gem…

    “Being a critic is much easier than being a leader as it requires no sacrifice or results.”

    Not true at all…. but hey Orrin said it so it must be true!

  279. Freedomhaha permalink
    August 16, 2013 12:02 pm

    Melanie- All of those quotations are from the first chapter of the Gospel of Orrin.

  280. Melanie Morgan permalink
    August 16, 2013 6:44 pm


    Yes, amazing isn’t it, they spew them by the thousands and as if they don’t apply to themselves,….. just astounding, it even comes out of their mouths.

    Like this one “I would rather lose and hurt my ego than cheat to win and hurt my character.”-Orrin Woodward…

    Makes you just shake your head, and think wow did he really just say that!?

    Most are pretty much a dead giveaways on what’s happening in the teams and how they are constantly trying to either guilt them to stay in, must have a lot of people frustrated and quitting.

    Those continuous propaganda “seeds” are meant for and planted in the minds of the followers, always specific intent, always to suit agenda. Quite manipulating and some quite brass on them poor followers. And some are just astounding that they even say them as if they don’t

  281. Melanie Morgan permalink
    August 16, 2013 6:45 pm

    oops ignore last sentence.

  282. August 23, 2013 4:25 am

    “Never argue with an idiot, for they will drag you down to your level and beat you with experience every time.”
    -Mark Twain
    Peace out, ‘yall.

  283. August 23, 2013 4:29 am

    @Rascal Teamster
    Thank you for the benefit of the doubt. I only bothered because nobody in this thread, with the possible exception of Vogel, appears to understand netiquette. Vaya con Dios.

  284. Bob Robertson permalink
    October 29, 2013 8:27 am

    Lets not forget BILL & JANN NEWTON of Wichita Ks. filed BANKRUPTCY May 21-2013
    case no. 13-11244 Team/LIFE (Quad 100). I am so excited to see the scammers crash. I only wish it had been sooner a lot of families are hurting because of them. May they hurt ten fold

  285. November 11, 2013 5:47 am

    His team is in Michigan now,one of my friends tried to get me to go to a meeting.
    I told him no until I did some research. Glad I found this site…thank you

  286. Joseph Luckett permalink
    April 5, 2014 3:33 pm

    Wow!!!!!! Is this actually true? Is team/life really and truly a legimate business?????? I had a friend of mine tell me it is, but it doesn’t make any sense.

  287. April 5, 2014 6:29 pm

    IAB was shut down by the Federal Trade Commission – Fact

    Orrin and Chris were removed from the Leadership Gurus list – Fact

    Investigate the history of TEAM/LIFE and its founders. Interpret the facts how you want to. Read the Forbes article for more details on the history of TEAM:

    Read the timeline posts on this site (right-hand sidebar) for additional information.

  288. freedomhaha permalink
    April 6, 2014 3:58 pm

    Joseph- Glad you found your way to this page. The people of this group will be happy to educate you in any way possible.

  289. joseph luckett permalink
    April 7, 2014 7:43 am

    My friend says that this info isn’t real, is their any suggestions that you could give me to tell him its really a legit scam????????????????

  290. April 7, 2014 9:16 am


    FTC begs to differ –

    IAB’s own website –

    Screenshot of IAB award to Orrin –

    It’s a fact that Orrin and company touted the award for several years (along with the Leadership Gurus):

    What other info does your friend say isn’t real?

    At the end of the day, you have to weigh the evidence for yourself and make a decision. What’s important is to get both sides of the story.

  291. Anna permalink
    April 7, 2014 5:04 pm

    Joseph, print the bankruptcy documents linked to this site and show them to your friends. Ask them to show you how those aren’t real. With any luck, you’ll be able to save your friends from what is most definitely a scam as well.

  292. Melanie Morgan permalink
    April 8, 2014 9:48 am

    His friend says the information isn’t “real”…that is the best answer he could come up with, seriously?……that’s hysterical!

  293. freedomhaha permalink
    April 8, 2014 6:59 pm

    Haha Don’t worry this is the most “legit scam” that you will find.

  294. Barbara permalink
    April 9, 2014 11:32 am

    I left TEAM a year ago, and have a garage full of useless books and CD’s….does anyone know if I can sell them online without the TEAM office coming to get me????

  295. Melanie Morgan permalink
    April 10, 2014 6:42 am


    They don’t control you or what you do with the material you BOUGHT and paid for. If you feel comfortable, look me up on FB and we can talk, maybe I can help. I don’t doubt you are seeing you have more money in your pockets since you left, at least you stopped the bleeding.

  296. Melanie Morgan permalink
    April 10, 2014 6:57 am

    Sorry, Meant to say I have no doubt you ARE seeing more money in your pocket since you left!

  297. Matthew Cole permalink
    April 14, 2014 4:50 pm

    I have a friend currently involved with LIEf Leadership. I’ve tried explaining to her that it is a pyramid scheme that uses cult-like techniques to keep members sucked in, but she won’t listen to me. She is convinced it is a real business and that she is going to make 6 figures in it. She seems to be under the spell of a man named Will Luden who is her LIEf Leader. Will resides in Colorado Springs, CO. He has a master’s degree from Harvard Business School and he is currently the Chairman of the Board of Directors for a company based in Milwaukee, WI. I have tried telling her that Will should not be trusted because even though I couldn’t find anything negative about him on the internet, he should be able to recognize what this really is, and tell you to get out given his background in business and his education. The fact he is encouraging you to stay in; should tell you he is a crooked person on the inside. I was just wondering if anybody on this blog can give me any information on Will Luden that I could tell her; so that it can break the spell he has over her.

  298. Rascal Teamster permalink
    April 15, 2014 8:17 am

    Hi Matthew,

    I’ve been around this group for a long time. I’ve never heard of a Will Lunden before in the Team or Life.

    That doesn’t mean that he’s not a big wig from another MLM who jumped into Life, but the fact that you can’t find him on the net is very telling.

    #1 – MLM big wigs are all over the net bragging about themselves. This would seem to indicate that, at least in Life, he’s a peon trying to act big and has no prior MLM business.

    #2 – if you can’t find anything on him online, it’s very likely he’s not a big wig anywhere. He might just be totally full of crap, instead of just when it comes to the Life business.

    #3 – Harvard? Really? And he fell for this BS? That doesn’t seem like a Harvard decision.

    This smells bad all over buddy!

  299. Matthew Cole permalink
    April 15, 2014 10:29 am

    I don’t think he fell for this this. I pretty sure he knows it is a scam and he is in on it himself. He has to be profiting from this somehow. I just can’t image that a man who went to Harvard for Business School and has decades of experience in the Business World would fall for a obvious Pyramid Scheme and then encourage others to join, and stay in. If I could just sever this spell he has over her; I could start educating her on what LIEf really is. But until then she won’t listen to me. It is whatever Will says, is the truth.

  300. Vogel permalink
    April 16, 2014 6:57 pm

    I guess that the guy you are talking about is William Henry Luden III, who hails from Colorado Springs. His online profile says that he has a Harvard MBA degree. Aside from that he doesn’t seem an unlikely a fit as a topline MLM shill. He’s old (71) and it appears that he only makes $53,550 a year – in other words, the kind of guy who has nothing to lose by leveraging his ivy-league diploma to con people in an effort to make some extra dough in his twilight years.,%20Inc.

  301. Matthew Cole permalink
    April 16, 2014 10:33 pm

    Yeah that is him alright. So is that why you would think he is involved with LIEf because he sure does have my friend suckered in pretty good. So I’m guessing your vibe is the same as mine, don’t trust him. Some stuff I forgot to mention that maybe could paint a better picture of his involvement. His wife is in charge of the funds coming in. I remember my friend telling me that when she tried to recruit me in. The paid weekly Tuesday meetings are held at his house. And I saw through one of his Facebook friends profiles that he was photographed with Bill Lewis, who I know is a big wig in LIEf. Thank You for your responses, I appreciate the help.

  302. Former Round Table permalink
    April 17, 2014 5:10 am

    He charges for meetings at his house?!?!?!? Now that is some gall. The “premise” for charging for open meetings was always to pay for the room rental.

    Never underestimate Orrin’s ability to fool, since he fooled most of us at one time. Mr. Luden is EXACTLY the kind of person Orrin loves to get his hooks into. Orrin can leverage Luden’s credentials and credibility to the max to “prove” his business is legit. And it’s probably been a long time since anyone has stroked Mr. Luden’s ego the way Orrin will.

  303. Matthew Cole permalink
    April 29, 2014 11:23 pm

    Hi Guys. I have some questions maybe you guys can shed some light on for me. So I think we can all agree that their are only two types of Pro-LIEfer’s. You have the Pro-LIEfer’s that are brainwashed and really truly believe that LIEf is a legit business, and you have the Pro-LIEfer’s that know LIEf is a scam and they are in on the scam themselves. My question is: When you come across a Pro-LIEfer how can you tell what type of Pro-LIEfer they are? What type of character traits separate a brainwashed Pro-LIEfer from a Pro-LIEFer who knows it is a scam and they are in on the scam themselves? Also what would be your estimated ratio of brainwashed Pro-LIEfer’s to crooked Pro-LIEfer’s out there. (Example: 50/50, 80/20, 70/30) Like I said I have this friend who is involved and I have shown her all these red flags pointing to LIEf Leadership being a scam and she still stays in involved hardcore and she still claims LIEf is legit. I ask myself, “How do you not see this as being a scam?” It makes me wonder, “Is she just brainwashed?” or “Does she know LIEf is a scam and she is in on the scam herself?” It is just mindboggling to me that she is not seeing this. She hasn’t been involved very long. She got in during the summer on 2013 around maybe July. Your answers to these questions would be greatly appreciated

  304. Anna permalink
    April 30, 2014 1:48 am


    Great question! I would characterize it like any abuse. Typically people who are say emotionally or physically abused are more likely to become abusers over time themselves. That doesn’t make them “not a victim,” but it does make their victims casualties as well. So, that line is not easily defined. To an extent, you begin being the scammer/abuser, the day you start believing the scam/abuse is harmless. Occasionally, there are those who naturally and without provocation enjoy abusing, but we call them psychopaths and in the grand scheme of things they’re rare compared to the rest.

    In the same way, I don’t think any of us that ever signed up even one of our friends in Orrin’s organization would call ourselves innocent of perpetuating the lies we were being fed. After a while we began intuitively(maybe from day 1) to realize this was not going to work and this abusive system “was never going to change” but many of us stayed because “we could change it” or “we would be different – we would be diamonds one day”.

    I think the reason it boggles the mind is that it truly is NOT a logical commitment. I think that is reflected in some great posts by Mike Collins and others here in the breakdown of the IDS alone. What LIEf is, is an emotional decision where one begins to believe that this is going to solve a deep emotional need. (Need to prove to an authority that I really am smart, to a spouse that I really can be successful, to prove to self that I really am a good person, etc.).

    The sinister thing about LIEf is that it’s top brass has been intentionally savvy for over 20 years now as strumming those emotional heart strings and drawing people in. That’s what cults do.

  305. Matthew Cole permalink
    April 30, 2014 6:48 pm

    @Anna Thank You for your response. That is some pretty deep stuff there. This B/S is so much worse than I thought. I just hope one of these days; and hopefully soon my friend will get out. It is so frustrating not being able to get through to her.

  306. Matthew Cole permalink
    May 2, 2014 3:18 pm

    About a couple of weeks ago I made a comment about a man named Will Luden. I was trying to gather information on him and information on why a man with a master’s degree from Harvard and decades of experience as a CEO would be involving people with LIEf. I just stumbled across a link with a picture of him standing in front of a group discussing the LIEf scam. I was wondering if any one of you guys could click on the link and scroll down to the forth story and take a look at the photo and response back with maybe a better understanding of his involvement. Thank You, your responses are appreciated.

  307. Vogel permalink
    May 2, 2014 5:23 pm

    The “why” is almost certainly money (and a bit of an ego trip). It usually is.

  308. Matthew Cole permalink
    May 2, 2014 6:02 pm

    How do you think he is profiting? Do you think maybe he isn’t part of the pyramid, but rather just receiving a paycheck from LIEf to leverage his credentials around to sucker people into the pyramid scheme? Or do you think he is in the pyramid scheme and he is up high enough to where he is making a decent profit?

  309. May 2, 2014 7:29 pm

    @Matthew Cole – It looks like Will is presenting at the weekly open meeting, which means he’s at a certain level in the business (entrusted to present the plan at these meetings to prospects and members).

  310. Matthew Cole permalink
    May 3, 2014 11:11 am

    Thanks for the response back, all you guys. You helped me paint a pretty good picture of him. I just wish somebody actually knew him, so they could give me some facts about him.

  311. Vogel permalink
    May 3, 2014 4:54 pm

    I’ve looked into the backgrounds of quite a few people who get plugged in at the top of sketchy MLMs, and they have typically been unflattering, to put it mildly. In this case, it could be as innocuous as an old retired guy who got seduced by an easy opportunity (i.e., given a cherry opportunity with a big existing downline and the chance to make fees as a speaker and get his ego stroked) afforded to him simply because he has a something of great value to any MLM pyramid scheme — his Harvard degree and the aura of credibility (warranted or not) that it projects.

    On the other hand, he could be an unscrupulous conman at heart with some kind of inauspicious black mark in his background, which would up his desperation/motivation level and make him more likely to get involved in something scammy; and if that were the case, it might take a lot less to entice him into participating in a dishonest MLM endeavor.

  312. May 4, 2014 2:59 pm

    Matthew, if they say they’re at least breaking even and have been in less than 2 years, assume they’re in on the scam. Also add in anyone Turbo 25 or above. That should cover 99% of the LIEfers.

  313. noteam permalink
    May 4, 2014 5:49 pm

    I agree with PJ. Long before someone reaches Turbo 25, they realize the overwhelming majority of people in their downline are losing thousands of dollars a year. Unfortunately, by this time they have already alienated 95% of their family and former close friends and are trapped by this feeling that no one will forgive them and accept them back. Because the cult is so good at keeping you so busy, you have no friends outside of TEAM/LIFE and therefore feel like you have nowhere to go. You feel that at least within the cult you have a few friends who care for you.

    Unfortunately, those of us who have left the cult realize – once you leave the cult, the cult members will have nothing to do with you. They weren’t your true friends. And most of your friends and family will not make you eat as much crow as you think. They are just glad you are finally free of the mind control.

    For anyone still in the cult who feels this way, trust those of us who are free. Make the leap. Your spouse and kids are worth it. You will feel so good once you are finally free of the lies, deception, wasting money and missing family events. It will be the best decision you ever make.

  314. freedomhaha permalink
    May 4, 2014 6:37 pm

    noteam- Your last post should be the first thing people see when they click on this site!! I know that post will help others break free because it was posts like that by people like you that saved my life! Keep up the great work on here.

  315. Vita Veritas permalink
    June 4, 2014 2:06 pm

    Breaking news — Global Top 30 Leadership Gurus prints a retraction:

    “We believe we have made a mistake and would like to apologize to Mr Woodward and Mr Brady for the earlier statements. The note was unsubstantiated and has been removed from the Global Gurus Website and should not be referred to or relied upon by any other person, entity, website, blog or social media outlet of any kind.”

    See for yourself at:

  316. noteam permalink
    June 6, 2014 6:38 am

    How disgusting that the name Orrin Woodward & Chris Brady would be listed on the same page as true leaders such as John Maxwell, Ken Blanchard, Noel Tichy, etc. The true leaders have left such a positive impact on this world and truly benefited others, not only in their field.

    Orrin & Chris, however, have caused thousands and thousands of people to go thousands and thousands of dollars in debt, lose valuable family time, ruin careers, caused numerous bankruptcies. These two have cause more personal devastation than any two people I have personally met.

    They should be on a list for all the lives they have ruined, all the lies & deceit, and all the people they have scammed.

  317. Rascal Teamster permalink
    June 6, 2014 9:05 am

    That’s all this list and website is.

    This website is designed to take a few nobodies that no one has ever heard of and put them in the same light as John Maxwell and Ken Blanchard.

    It’s basically a promotion site run by dirt bags for other dirt bags.

  318. Melanie Morgan permalink
    June 6, 2014 2:40 pm

    Hey, hey, hey… it’s “breaking news”……Yep and from where I come from, there is ALWAYS more to the news.. ‘story’….ya know there is what some might call pesky little facts?… But best to be left “nicely” and seemingly perplexing and to the imagination….. How it ends with a simple little “mistake” will perplex some but for others it is simple and called common sense.

  319. Melanie Morgan permalink
    June 6, 2014 2:41 pm

    It’s all good….Group hug, lol

  320. Melanie Morgan permalink
    June 6, 2014 3:15 pm

    Wasn’t there a lawsuit?… then My question is; where can we read that?

  321. WasYoungAndDumb permalink
    June 9, 2014 5:33 am

    Never involved in team or lief [sic] but got duped and lured into Amway at the tail end of Quixtar. My co-worker sponsored me in. Didn’t know what I was getting myself into (like the name goes younganddumb) Man was I creeped out when I attended one of their so called functions. That’s when my eyes were opened to the poison that they administered. My skin crawls just thinking about it.

    The speaker was Greg Duncan and some big dude name Mike Woods. They pulled out every trick in the book, showing some kind of Crap business plan and shoddy products (perfect water, xs energy drinks, nutrilite power bars etc.) mixed with far right wing rhetoric.

    I walked away that night feeling sick with myself like I had just committed fornication. The next morning I called my bank cancelled the card I used to sign up and requested a new one and reported the amway sign up transaction as fraud. Fortunately for me, my bank was very understanding and offered to reverse the transaction. It took them about 4 weeks for Wells Fargo to have that done, I remember receiving letters from amway that they would take me to court but I paid no attention to it and dismissed it. And my lawyer assured me that legally they won’t be able to really so anything towards me. My line of sponsor was also upset and disappointed with me. And because he was my co worker it made things awkward when we were Both working on the sales floor. But it’s ok, I would rather him be upset with me than lose out on my personal hard earned money.

    That was 9 years ago. Looking back on it I am glad that I got out early. I was fortunate that no real damage was done to my wallet or my reputation to my real friends and family.

    Doing amway or any other type of so called MLM opportunity is like placing a noose around your neck. Don’t be fooled by the fancy talk, don’t place yourself on standing order, those books and CDs are crap. Don’t go to those night functions, things get weird and those speakers place themselves on a pedestal and demand your worship.

    Amway supporters can flame me and what not but come back to me in 2-5 years and let’s see where you are at. I could care less what you guys think of me. I make a honest living and I provide for my family and live modestly now. The lessons I learned were hard but are very valuable. Never again will I fall for this kind of crap. And if some idiot comes up to me and says “you look like a sharp guy…” Is gonna get a right hook to the eye

    The so called leaders in Hawaii for amway and other MLM schemes.

    Matt and Sandee Tsuruda
    Sean Tsukamoto (emerald)
    Dayne Lee
    Shane and Joey Yadao
    Rod kaawamura
    Jason Kiyosaki (yup nephew of Robert K)
    Kevin and Teri nambu
    Tommy Lee

    Stay clear of these fools.

  322. Melanie Morgan permalink
    June 9, 2014 7:13 pm


    Thanks for your story and that’s some great advice for anyone! Glad you had the guts and not allowed them to intimidate you, (their business as usual ‘ethics’. Good job for acting fast on your return and then following through! Have to say you are far from not dumb!

    Thanks for sharing. No Shame in the honest days work for an honest days pay…ummm that is what has been intended from the beginning of time and is by design even before ‘sin’.

    Disturbing but I am wide eyed on how they play God….They think they have all the answers to what everyone should do with their lives and if it isn’t “their” MLM then you will just end up after 45 years….. a broke, dead. loser…. who never wanted to ‘better’ yourself and wasted your life on this planet.

    This creates fear/ phobias that carries on for people about JOBs and according to them if you ‘quit’ their scam- money sucking/losing “business opportunity”….. they instill this by repeating…” what will you “quit too?” Entraps and convinces the “followers” to have a “JOB”…is thee worst thing you could ever do (what would they do without LAWYERS, Doctors, Pastors, etc…? Hmmm..them “losers with JOBS”….

    It’s a way to control and keep you “believing” they are the ONLY answer to anything worthy on this planet is them!

    Good luck and thanks!

  323. Melanie Morgan permalink
    June 9, 2014 7:14 pm

    oops correction….shouldn’t say ‘not’ …..dumb

  324. yeaboy! permalink
    July 22, 2014 3:27 pm

    How about Inc. Magazine’s Top leadership List?? Is this also a Damnation on all those other names on the list?? Maxwell Covey??? What about Leadershift?? Ny Times bestselling book?? Over 1 million books sold?? Guinness World Record Holder?? And I really hope you feel accomplished, professional basher! And the world record goes to…. This guy amthrax for… NOTHING! And all of you following this guy. If your not apart of Orrin Woodwards organization, why do you care?? Are you a competing company?? What are your credentials??? Oh yea I forgot everything you read on the internet is true… So courageous and brave for you to write on the internet, no name, no face attached. Why don’t you do a video?? Tell us your real name?? Your bio??? O maybe because what your doing on the internet, slandering this man’s name, is illegal and you may be sued! And rightfully so! Anyway have a good day O all knowing, All powerful amthrax! Lol.

  325. yeaboy! permalink
    July 22, 2014 3:35 pm Slanderous Man. You guys need to Stop

  326. yeaboy! permalink
    July 22, 2014 3:38 pm

    Its Probably like 5 of you guys who write all these comments on here using different names too man.

  327. ExAmbot permalink
    July 23, 2014 8:50 am

    @yeaboy, bless your heart child, bless your heart.

  328. noteam permalink
    July 23, 2014 2:04 pm

    Yeaboy! – Kind of ironic how Orrin & crew made full use of anonymous posts when it was to their advantage. Did you see the part in the lawsuit with Amway where Tim Marks was fined $60,000 for his Lois Lerner type maneuvers when asked for evidence regarding all the anonymous blogs against Quixtar? Orrin had direct knowledge of some pretty negative blogs back then.

    And we are not trying to discredit anyone. But as former leaders of TEAM, we saw the damage done. We each saw hundreds and hundreds of people who ran up thousands and thousands of dollars of debt – all under the cover of ‘the dream’. They were not told on the first night that they would end up spending thousands of dollars a year on personal development. They were led to believe they would not really be spending that much. And the insinuation was that they would be making many times more than that ‘after the next major function’. But the overwhelming majority of these people wasted thousands of dollars a year – year after year after year after year. And not only were they not better off. many of them ran up credit card debt many times more than what they had before they were introduced to the scam.

    As Christians, we refuse to look the other way. All it takes for evil to triumph is for good people to do nothing. Thousands and thousands of people have had serious loses and damage to their family as a result of this crew. It’s time for those of us who know the truth to not just leave and walk away, but to let others know the truth and keep them from the loses so many other people ended up with. And to let them know of all the lies and deceit that goes on behind the scenes.

    Have you seen the Darkangelo bankruptcy papers? did you know Orrin received $3 million for bringing us all to MonaVie, which he hid from us? Do you know the truth about why CEO Bob Dickie is gone? Why Pastor Dickie is gone? Do you know about all the people who had their groups transferred away from them? If information is so valuable, why do you only want information from one source. Don’t you owe it to your Creator to see if by chance there is more to all these questions?

  329. July 24, 2014 8:57 am


    Are we a competing company? Absolutely not, that’s why you can believe what you read here. The only thing we have to gain is a sense of peace, that we may be able to save an innocent person from wasting time and money on Orrin’s scam.

    My credentials? They were given to me by Orrin himself when he voted my upline out of profit sharing and gave their team to someone else. By doing that, Orrin officially put me on the team of those who oppose him. BTW…it’s not slander if it’s true, it’s freedom of speech.

    Orrin’s sold over a million books, but how many of those books have actually been read? How many have never even been opened? I, myself, have over 20 copies of various Woodward/Brady books in my basement that have never been opened. Feasibly, I only need one copy to read for myself, so why did I buy the others? Let’s see…some were purchased as part of a team competition to earn time with our “moving on upline”, some were to hand out in first-night packs, some came down as the book of the month, some were purchased because the company TEAM was associated with changed, rendering the old copies unusable…need I go on? Boy, I’m sure glad Orrin isn’t trying to game the system! Just think how many useless copies of his books I’d have then!

  330. noteam permalink
    July 24, 2014 10:21 am

    Great point Platinum Blond – there has to be thousands of us who bought 10, 20, 30 or more copies of several of his books. How many legitimate best sellers get there by people purchasing 10, 20, 30 or more copies? I just don’t see the average reader buying that many copies.

  331. exambot permalink
    July 24, 2014 12:28 pm

    Give him time, he will come to his milk.

  332. YEAboy permalink
    July 27, 2014 12:11 pm

    @no team so let me get this right, you want to warn the people that there is a risk they lose money in a business?? So what kinda business is there not a risk to lose thousands?? And are you claiming that there its no monty to be made in the life business?? That if you build a life coach size business you will make no money?? They are pretty straight forward that its not going to be easy. And if personal development is important than you might as well get a discount for being a member… On your way to getting paid to be a life time student of leadership. I love the association. And I meet hundreds of people who feel the same. You guys love Maxwell, I do to, but he sells 3 dvd sets for 140. Don’t get me started on seminars of his. O and he keeps all the money! Maybe that needs a blog too.

  333. freedomhaha permalink
    July 27, 2014 6:28 pm

    Exambot- I just wish his time would come soon so that it could save so many people that are hurt needlessly by the scam.

  334. noteam permalink
    July 28, 2014 4:32 pm

    YEAboy! – what I have a problem with is the deception. Yes, they say it will not be easy. But the total commitment is never covered until a newbie is too far in to give up. New people are led to believe it’s just one Tuesday a week and one Saturday a month and a small $50 a month. They have no idea that if they truly qualify for power player doing the plans, the follow-ups, the getting started sessions, the Opens, the seminars, etc – they will be spending almost every free minute they have outside of their job. and they will do this for years.

    then the $50 a month will end up being $500-1,000+ a month if they are truly sold out to the system and investing in proper recommended follow-up tools. Once again, look at the Darkangelo bankruptcy – over $200,000 of consumer debt while becoming one of the biggest leaders that organization ever had. (And that is not to put down the Darkangelo’s who I believe are good people and would never mean to mock someone’s financial troubles. But it points out the serious consequences of following the system)

    Nice slight of hand by the way on the cost of Maxwell materials. Yes, the cost on one Maxwell set or one Maxwell seminar is more. However, I don’t see too many people going to a Maxwell seminar every Tuesday, one Saturday a month, 3 majors a year, and investing $500-1,000 a month on extra Maxwell material. I can’t imagine too many people spending $15,000 in a couple years on Maxwell.

  335. YEAboy permalink
    July 28, 2014 6:45 pm

    @noteam everyone has been super straight with me about the time and money it would take to make it a profession. And no one purchasing maxwell will ever receive a single dime either. And so what if you spend every minute away from your job building a business for a couple years, if after that you can leave your job. Which by the way I have personally witnessed several people do that over the past several years.

  336. Former Round Table permalink
    July 29, 2014 5:09 am

    YEAboy, you really just want to believe what you want to believe. If you had read anything on this site, you would know that your so-called “profession” is nothing more than a scam to line Orrin Woodward’s pockets. (Seriously, can you tell me how Orrin Woodward writing his initials a whole bunch of times is going to help you or anyone else? Do you really think that will give you some kind of credibility?)

    I WAS “retired” from my job and lived off my earnings from Orrin’s business, before LIFE. Orrin did not steal any of my teams, so I do not have an axe to grind. I simply started to see the man for what he truly is, a lying, narcissistic cult-master who will (and has) spread lies about anyone who would dare to question the ethics of his actions.

    I could go on, but you really don’t want to hear it, do you? You want to believe all that glitters is gold. I pity you.

  337. LionChaser permalink
    July 29, 2014 6:26 am

    Yeaboy, do you know how many of the people that I saw “retire” had to go back to work at a job?

    Every. Single. One.

  338. YEAboy permalink
    July 29, 2014 7:19 am

    @formerroundtable you were a roundtable im the amway days?? When orrin wrote a letter to the owner stating the problems with the business model? Going to bat for the ibo’s? Risking millions? I’ve read the letter. And so what a some peoples business failed. Although im not happy about it, I wouldn’t make fun of someones financial situation, that doesn’t mean there haven’t been some guys who have made it work a long time. And things are different now, for instance you get 25% on every sale, what kinda business gives you 25% of the top?? And the rest goes in the pay plan

  339. Rascal Teamster permalink
    July 29, 2014 7:45 am

    @Yeaboy, I feel that I should mention this, but regular readers would recognize my story.

    I got involved with Team when they were still with Quixtar. I saw Team in four different opportunities. They were Quixtar, the Desert experience (the time between Team and Monavie where we just sold leadership material), Monavie and then Life for 7 months. I was in for 5.5 yrs and invested just under $25k over that time. I knew that I would be investing $5K a year in any network marketing business, so the investment didn’t bother me. My family has owned retail stores for over 30 years. I knew running business and what resources are required.

    But what I didn’t realize was the greatest lie that Orrin has ever told and you obviously believe….

    “In Life, you own your own business.”

    That’s a bunch of crap! You don’t own squat. Every time we switched companies, we had a brand new business…new support materials, new pay scale, new requirements, and you had to move with them.

    If you didn’t move into the new business, you lost everything. You didn’t even have a say in the move. It is the equivalent of Orrin walking into my current store and saying, “from here on out, you no longer sell high end vacuums and filtration systems. Now you sell lawn ornaments.”

    Yeaboy, seriously ask yourself this question. “If someone else makes all the decisions for you and your customers in your business without your consent, do you really own your own business?”

    In my retail stores I call all the shots. In my prior leadership training business long before Team, it was the same way. No one tells you how to run a business if you own it. Networkers don’t even own a franchise, which is kinda like your own business. In networking, you are pawns to the whims of your upline.

    And currently you are a pawn to a bunch of wanna be businessmen who think following a guy who can sign the most books makes him a leader. If you go back and listen to OLD Orrin CDs, he should have lead hundreds to millionaire status by now. Truth is, Orrin isn’t really a good leader at all, and the people you are following either don’t have the business smarts to see it or are playing the game with him.

    Sorry dude, you are living a pipe dream that’s based on a total lie that you are willingly believing because you want it to be true. There are real opportunities out there. Go find one that you will actually own.

  340. Former Round Table permalink
    July 29, 2014 9:56 am

    It’s kind of like talking to a tree, isn’t it?

  341. Rascal Teamster permalink
    July 29, 2014 9:57 am


    The letter you reference is pointless. “Going to bat for the IBOs”…..are you kidding or just naive?

    Orrin railed against Amway for their “impossible to move up” Comp Plan in court, because it is a 24-1 break even ratio….meaning if you spend $50, 24
    people below you had to spend $50 for you to get your $50 back. Orrin said it was the equivalent of thievery by DeVos and VanAndle and bad for new members.

    Well after all of those business changes that I stayed through, and all the dollars spent waiting for Orrin to get the ability to fix the networking industry, the final one, the company Orrin has total control over created a 27-1 break even plan.

    One to many Orrin Woodward lies and disception for me.

  342. July 29, 2014 10:22 am

    Orrin risked millions in order to go to bat for the IBOs! Now I’ve heard everything! Truth be told, Orrin risked losing millions if he DIDN’T leave Quixtar because they wanted to control the tools business and Orrin couldn’t have that. Let’s also not forget that Orrin made millions of dollars (that he didn’t share) for moving all of us over to MonaVie, after bad-mouthing juice MLMs for years. Notice that HE was the sole benefactor of that $3M. What does that tell you about who owns your business???

  343. noteam permalink
    July 29, 2014 11:31 am

    Orrin was about to be kicked out of Quixtar for rules violations and he knew it. And rather than step up and do the right thing, he used the people in his group as pawns for leverage for his own benefit. Plain and simple. It was all about him from the beginning. It was never about serving people. It was all about saving his personal business, saving his tools business, figuring out what kind of special deal he could get for himself, selling his own personal books, marketing his own personal blogs and building his own already huge ego.

  344. Mike Collins permalink
    July 29, 2014 11:49 am

    Yeahboy, I’m going to make three points here and then I will shut up.

    1st…..You don’t know sh@t!

    2nd…..It’s obvious to everyone here that you don’t know sh@t!

    And 3rd……apparently you are the only one on this board who doesn’t know that you don’t know sh@t!

  345. Rascal Teamster permalink
    July 29, 2014 12:35 pm

    Mike, love ya, man. Tell us what ya really think.

    Look, for the Lifers reading this, let me make this simple.

    Go reasearch any other MLM you want. You will find critics of everything out there under the sun.

    What makes Amthrax’s blog different is that here you will find people VERY emotionally involved in the fight. And I am not surprised one bit when I hear people write things like, “there’s probably only five of you here all writing under different names.” It sure must seem that way. I mean, we’re over the top against Orrin and company.

    But if you read the Timeline, you see a lot of different info there. If there are only five of us, Amthrax is an inside job. Only someone inside Team Office would have the diversity of knowledge needed to comment knowledgeably on all these topics.

    Well, it’s either that…..OR……a whole lot of people from a whole lot of different teams all affiliated with Orrin who once we found this board and started crosslining did we realize that we all had similar experiences…..almost as if ALL the Roundtables and above were involved.

    In fact, the later is actually the case, Yeahboy. And the Roundtables and above who didn’t want to “play the game” were ostracized and “forced” out. They are now here relating those stories of the horrors that went on behind the glitz and glamour of Team.

    The tragedy for you and others is that the masterminds who orchestrated those horrors are the only one’s left….the very ones to whom you are trusting your future. Critical thinking, for you, is invaluable at this point.

    Choose what you believe very wisely, and know why you believe what you believe….to quote Tim Marks. This can be an expensive, dream crushing lesson.

  346. YEAboy permalink
    July 29, 2014 1:26 pm

    @noteam we will just have to agree disagree. Mike collins, I know quite a bit thanks, btw very articulate points you made sir that really added to the credibility of this blog. @no team orrin wrote a letter in 2005 to devous. I read the letter… Its very interesting… so according to you guys, everyone on the round table us a lying criminal who us on a secret plot to steal money from people? And you guys are the only ones who know the truth and are here to save the day?

  347. Rascal Teamster permalink
    July 29, 2014 4:09 pm


    Those weren’t the words I used, but yes, that would be the case.

    Everyone on the Round Table and above knows the game and is playing the game.

    That game is knowing that the comp plan and pay scale are heavily tipped in their favor, while they pitch it as being “new guy friendly.” They know that the new guy has a hopeless chance of making it to freedom…as it is sold in the Tuesday Night as job optional. They know that the bulk of their income, while wrapped in a different color wrapping paper, is the same tool business they have had since Amway. They also know that their people will never “own” their own business, and that their “business” can be swept out from under them at any time by a vote…..the comp plan says so, and they’ve all seen it happen. Your teams are the property of Orrin. And they also know that if they had to boil their job description down to the elevator speech, it would be this…

    We at Team Life make our money by selling motivation that motivates others to sell more motivation, and the better we motivate them, the more money we make.

    The upside is that people actually can gain from self improvement….and the product is legit. They sell and regurgitate all the best in leadership. The downside is that the business concept is the scam wrapped up in the cloak of self improvement. Another downside is that when you are financially compensated for motivating others to sell for you, the last of your concerns is a genuine concern for your people’s self improvement. It is motivating you to push them to sell….or in this case buy more so you can increase your numbers. The lie believed by all is that this process is driven by a desire to help others. It’s driven by money. The drive for a business to make money isn’t bad, but the deception behind this one is.

    All of the best sold lies in history have always been wrapped up in a cloak of truth. We see the truth. We rarely see the lie.

    If you were to tell me that Team is a leadership development club….like a book club, fine. But when you tell me it is a legitimate business opportunity, you are either ignorant or a liar. The spicey part is that you get to choose which one you are.

    And speaking of truth, what’s your real story? You seem to be very knowledgeable about the history of Team for someone who is merely a member. The more you post, the more you read like someone who is not as they report to be.

    Tell me how it is that you have this much time to dedicate to correcting our “false” stories?

    If you are a newbie, and following the plan, you should be spending time showing your 15 plans to hit your goal of 10 deep in the tap root. You also wouldn’t be this emotionally involved in correcting us.

    If you are a little higher up, you would be running the hamster wheel of showing your plans and making sure those below you were showing theirs. You would be more emotionally invested in the business, but too busy to argue with us.

    If you were really high up, you would not only have the time to post this much and do the research you say you have, but you would also have this background histroy…..and really motivated.

    If you are just checking Life out, you wouldn’t have any reason to post here.

    Now if you are a hired gun, well this is what you do for a living. You would fight the battles online which others can not. Your motivation would be money.

    The only question I have left is are you another one of Orrin’s hired guns, or one of the liars? You certainly are not merely a member of Life. Maybe I missed something when you introduced yourself to the group. If so, I apologize. But something smells funny when it comes out of your pen.

  348. YEAboy permalink
    July 29, 2014 5:06 pm

    @rascalteamster I didn’t introduce myself, im not a hired gun or a high up in the business. I am a member. I read the blog because I googled orrin woodward. I was interested, so I read, which made me post. I think you guys were right about the business models of the past, major problems for instance in quistar out of 700,000 ibo’s only 6 reached emerald, which was 80,000 a year. Not exactly rich. Monavie which I like was definitely over priced. However I am a guy who knows a thing or two. I’ve read the by-laws of life leadership, I understand the comp plan very well. I’ve spent a lot of time asking questions, watching, listening. Im a very independent thinker, I understand business. I understand law. So when I see the life business, I see 25% off each sale, the rest goes on the comp plan, I see free trips at 6000 pv another at 15000 pv, I see really good, really market friendly product easily retailable, and a really cool 3 for free program, I get mine free. Also there are points on meetings, and the old roundtable bonuses are now earned through a community advancement program. So for example someone with 13 in the tap and 7 on the side attending meetings is an $1100 a month bonus.

  349. YEAboy permalink
    July 29, 2014 5:16 pm

    So when I think of business I think of a guy who owned 5 holiday inns, sunk 100’s of k’s into franchising, lost them all after 8 years owing millions of dollars. Or of my dad who ran a business 30 years and ended up out of business and 80k in debt. So if you told me I could start something in my home, for a hundred bucks, all of which is products, I can quit when I want there are no contacts, I can get a 25% margin on everything I sell. The meetings are apart of the product, and the materials I can believe in. then yes, im very interested…

  350. freedomhaha permalink
    July 29, 2014 6:12 pm

    Yeaboy- Do you know what percentage of people in your downline are making a profit?

  351. Former Round Table permalink
    July 29, 2014 6:19 pm

    Like I said before, it’s like talking to a tree. Rascal, that is a brilliant description! Mike Collins, perfectly said. Yea boy, keep drinking that koolaid. You have a red mustache!

  352. Rascal Teamster permalink
    July 29, 2014 6:33 pm

    I appreciate the tone of your reply, YEAboy. I believe you are who you say.

    Listen, all I ever wanted to see from this group was people advance. I wanted to see my upline emeralds from Quixtar, Mark and Jenn Paul make it to Diamond….prove it can be done….that anyone can do it.

    Obviously if they were as good as people said, and they were following Orrin, of course he could get them there. I wanted to see Birtles make it, and John and Melanie, and Jim and Delores, and Militellos, and hell…..I wanted to see all of my CD favorites make it to the promised land.

    I really wanted to see my mentor, who has been in for over 11 years, make it back up to Turbo 25. He’s still in, and he still hasn’t.

    Alas, I haven’t seen any of them make PC. I saw many of them go backwards over the years, but I haven’t seen them make it. They are still “fired up” though.

    I saw the Hawkins “make it,” but now even that is questionable. You see there are people here who I trusted as part of that same group. They tell me Hawkins got that way by the addition of their groups to his….that it wasn’t organic growth as advertised. Whom do you believe?

    When it all washes out, I’ll side with Pastor Dickie character judgement, and if you don’t know who he is, ask your upline.

    Listen, If you believe Orrin, YEAboy, and I believe you do, then do what he says and not what he does. Let your results speak for themselves and don’t worry about the critics.

    If the business is everything that the Tuesdays say it is, you guys shouldn’t have a care in the World. A man with an experience is never at the mercy of a man with an opinion…..and of course everything here would just be opinion, and you would be able to prove otherwise, correct?

    When the Team’s own IDS says that only 4% make it, don’t you really need to come to the table with more than mere rebutlal? In the end, for me, the Amthrax blog’s “truth” overtook The Tribe’s results, and I was painfully out.

    I wish you well, brother, but fighting with us is not going to get you to freedom. Results are the only thing that will. Personally I have no results I can point to in my experience that were what I would consider business wins. I got to see my “heros,” Mark & Jenn drop from emerald on the way to Diamond all the way down to requalifying for triple 100. They are not as big today as they were in Quixtar, and the glowing light they shined on this business never changed throughout the entire ride.

    How genuine and well meaning are you if you shine the same light on your proposal when it’s failing as you do when it’s succeeding? Are you putting people and God first….or yourself? How would you describe that character to your children? Would you want them to model that deception, or would you not consider that deception?

    I have an email from Joe Darkangelo through Mark & Jenn for a major houseplan at Joe’s house. In that houseplan, Mark pumped Joe up as a master businessman and financially free. 14 days later, Joe declared bankruptcy. Mark told me when I questioned him that he and Joe never talked about Joe’s finances. An upline who doesn’t talk finances with his downline when the guy has $200K in consumer debt.

    Now it’s not that Joe’s a loser because he declared bankruptcy. Joe’s a loser for having that houseplan, nodding in agreement when Mark pumped him up, and playing the part. I had a new prospect at that meeting. I’m not even going to go I to how lousy Mark’s leadership is in the whole mess. He’s either bad at teaching the Financial ‘F’ or a bad mentor. Again, you get to choose.

    But would you want your children to model that type of character…..cause you’re defending it. I couldn’t do that anymore.

  353. Rascal Teamster permalink
    July 29, 2014 6:42 pm

    Freedomhaha, we know what that percentage is.

    As Mike Collins demonstrated in his video and Life’s IDS backs up, 1 in 27 break even. Life’s IDS says that’s 4%. The math is the same.

    The comp plan will forbid it from ever being better than 4%.

  354. YEAboy permalink
    July 29, 2014 8:33 pm

    @rascalteamster I appreciate you man. Your right I will not get freedom posting here, and believe me I really haven’t spent much energy on this. I appreciate your insite, your honesty. I like mark and jenn and hope they make life coach. Good luck to you in everything you do.

  355. freedomhaha permalink
    July 31, 2014 5:37 am

    Rascal teamster- You’re right we do know what percentage that is, but I can’t help but bringing it up again. The reason (and maybe I am completely wrong about this) is because the comp plan analysis helped me leave. My hope is that my question forces those working with Orrin to think critically about what they are doing.

    YEAboy- I just want to say that I have been there too. If I had found this blog a month or so in I would have taken the same route you did. If you ever need anyone to talk to about this we can set something up. It is a tough decision to leave, but I assure you it is an awesome one! When you leave TEAM it does not make you a quitter rather a critical thinker! God bless.

  356. Rascal Teamster permalink
    July 31, 2014 7:12 am

    I’m with you, Freedom. I applaud whatever Red Pill it is that makes someone finally see the matrix for what it is. Keep beating that drum, brother, but that 4% doesn’t matter as much as you think. Well it does, but maybe not the way you think it does.

    I knew those numbers going in, Freedom. Amway and Quixtar had similar numbers. Monavie’s IDS had similar numbers. All networks have similar numbers. There is this thing called math that keeps getting in the way of those numbers ever being much better than what they are.

    My thought was, “what difference does it make if only 4% of the people are making it at any given time if I can eventually make it into the 4% crowd? We grow this sucker to a million, and I WILL be one of the 40,000!!!” I’m a choleric melancholy. That was my thinking. That math works!

    That is why I hammer the deception. I thought I could get there. They told me I could get there….that they would help me get there. I’m watching people walk across stage. Dude!!!! This works!!!

    Of course, once fully invested, it doesn’t build as fast as it appeared to when you were checking it out. The real game of find and replace people at the bottom to keep the upline fed is cloaked in a deception of growth. It’s false growth…new faces…same numbers.

    I once witnessed my upline round table set up a plan to an employee working security at a Leadership Convention 15 mins before the convention started so my downline could go Power Player. He was a plan short. He had nothing to do with this plan really which lasted all of five minuets. The guy had already said he wasn’t interested before the plan started. The employee listened to “help us out.”

    My downline got to march across stage and talk to the whole team and tell everyone how great it was to go Power Player….how you could do it too if you just worked hard and showed 15 plans.

    It was sold to him by our round table as being positive for the Team. We needed to see someone advancing. It would be good for all the new people to see someone making progress.

    How did it make you feel when you heard him speak to the teams at the intermission, Freedom? Were you fired up? Did you think that if this guy from The Tribe could do it, of course, you could do it too? I’m only asking you directly, as you were probably standing in the basement of that hotel in Ohio with me when he was recognized. Both sides of our groups were there. That’s the deception that keeps the machine running. And that’s just a mild example of manipulation by deception.

    See it doesn’t matter if the Team IDS or any other network’s IDS says that only 4% are making money or 20% are making money. As a new guy just getting in, Freedom, would you care whether it was 4% or 20% if it was ALWAYS the same 4% or 20%??? Of course you wouldn’t. The fact that the IDS says it’s 4% doesn’t make it bad. It’s the fact that you are told that you can get there, but you can’t, that makes it bad.

    If the total numbers of the group don’t increase, but just get replaced at the bottom, no one in the middle will ever see the money. It is impossible for them to advance. Your round table will always be your round table, the new guys will always look different but smell the same, and you will be stuck in the middle supporting your upline’s standard of living by pitching new guys they can have the life style that you still have yet to achieve.

    Isn’t it odd that the Team’s IDS says that only 4% of the members are making a profit, but this is the same group that hammers conventional business because 80% fail in the first 5 years? Almost sounds like my odds are better with a conventional business, doesn’t it? Another lie uncloaked….

  357. July 31, 2014 1:51 pm

    @YEAboy said
    July 29, 2014 5:06 pm
    “I didn’t introduce myself, im not a hired gun or a high up in the business. I am a member. ”

    YEAboy knows he is a member. We all know who registered the LLC.

  358. freedomhaha permalink
    August 1, 2014 3:36 am

    Rascal Teamster- Thank you for the thoughtful response. The reason that the hard numbers hit me so hard was because this was my first experience with MLM. It was sold to me that “everyone would win”. I was in this with people I really cared about before I entered the business and we were all going to make it together. The switch flipped when I saw the numbers and realized that some of us (most likely ALL of us) could never make it. As soon as I read that article my stomach got in knots and I dumped all of my material in the trash.

    No doubt we were together in Ohio and I was the young guy with the 44 oz TEAM Kool-Aid in my hand! If you see someone else that does it I knew I could as a competitor. My upline that I was there with that day is still in and has not recovered from their peak of Turbo 50 in Quixtar.

  359. Rascal Teamster permalink
    August 1, 2014 6:33 am

    You know, in a perfect world, MLMs would work….at least until we run out of people to keep feeding the bottom.

    After reading all of this info, though, a sensible person has to ask themselves, “wait a fricking minute. If this opportunity is so great and ‘anyone can do it,’ and all these detractors were in it, why did they get out?”

    Let’s say you want to invest $5000 into a business. If in your research you uncovered an entire network of criticism against the product and the company, would you invest your money there?

    What if these critics said, “I worked for this company, and they all these deceptive and manipulative things?”

    What if a current employee of the company said to you, “that’s all hogwash. We’re good guys. Invest your money with us.” Would you?

    When you stumble across a truly great company, you will find very little to criticize.

    Another Team lie uncovered, “when you find a truly great individual who is doing great things, you can measure his greatness by the number of his critics. The great are ALWAYS criticized!”

    OK….even if I agree, that does not mean that just because someone is criticized, they must be doing great things. It does not make the reverse automatically true. See how the lie comes packaged in the cloak of truth?

    The only people who sputter such nonsense and twist history for their own gain like this are megalomaniacs who think they walk on water and fart rainbows that smell like flowers.

    Being criticized does not make one great. Positive results do…

  360. August 1, 2014 4:29 pm

    Reading this made me reflect on a few points.

    In the 3.5 years since I signed up,

    1. My old sponsor is still at the same level he was in Monavie

    2. My old Round Table who became RT from Quixtar/Monavie is still Round Table

    3. There have been no new Round Tables beneath my old RT

    YeaBoy, I hope you have your cleats & waders on and your bs meter turned off. It’s a long, slow, dirty uphill climb to slavery.

  361. Matthew Cole permalink
    August 2, 2014 7:24 pm

    Hi Guys. I’m back for more questions. Sorry to keep bothering you guys with questions, I’m just really trying to figure out as much information about this scam as I can. I read through your comments and I keep seeing terms I’m unfamiliar with. Could one of you guys explain to me what Turbo 25, Turbo 50, and Turbo 100 are? What are Power Players? And what are Rubies, Diamonds, Sapphires, and Emeralds? I get lost sometimes when I read through your comments and see these terms because I’m unfamiliar with what they are.

  362. exTEAMster permalink
    August 3, 2014 8:53 pm

    Turbo refers to the number of people across at least two legs who are attending monthly seminars. So a Turbo 25 has 25 people in their organization who have purchased tickets to a seminar. Power Players are those who put 10 new people into one leg and 5 people in another leg during the time between leadership conventions (there are some other requirements such as having a certain amount of product volume to qualify for Power Player). The Turbo and Power Player designations are kind of like merit badges that measure progress but don’t reflect specific income levels (I.e., two people could each qualify as Turbo 10 but their income levels could be different because one might have 50 people in their team and another could have 200). Emeralds, Diamonds, etc. were achievement levels used by Amway and Monavie. They are not used by LIFE but many of the high ranking people in LIFE may have been Diamonds or something similar in Monavie.

  363. August 4, 2014 9:15 am

    PJ, something struck me as I was reading your comments about the lack of growth in your upline organization in the last 3-5 years. When my husband and I joined the business (Team was affiliated with Quixtar at the time), we were told that if we signed up right away, we could still get in on the “ground level”.

    We left the business 8 years later, but during that entire time, we were still telling people that they could get in on the ground level, before the thing really took off. We were so programmed to just repeat the words when we were showing the plan, that I never really stopped to think about it.

    After all the “record growth” year after year, how could we still be at the ground level 8 years later??? Duh, it’s a build and replace business and therefore it’ll always be at the ground level. The people getting into the elevator on the 1st floor this year are different that the people who got in on the 1st floor last year, but they never made it to the 2nd, 3rd or 4th floors. NOBODY is moving up unless they’re given an already-existing team (they are given a pass to the “express” elevator). This is done in order to make it appear as if there’s growth, but it’s all smoke and mirrors. The 8 couples in the penthouse suite now, are the same 8 couples who were in the penthouse suite when we left the business six years ago. If they let somebody else up there, their income would take a hit, and they can’t let that happen unless it’s necessary to keep propagating the lie that this scam works.

  364. Dee Scott permalink
    March 16, 2015 9:31 am

    What does this mean then? Inc magazine named Orrin Woodward as one of the best leaders to speak at conferences, so how bad is he really?

  365. freedomhaha permalink
    March 16, 2015 10:47 am

    Dee Scott- You will find plenty of factual information on this site to answer that very question. I highly encourage you to look with an open mind and ask questions.

  366. Former Round Table permalink
    March 16, 2015 3:07 pm

    Dee, it is possible to be a good public speaker and a crappy human being. Ask Orrin about Bo Short.

  367. freedomhaha permalink
    March 17, 2015 8:08 am

    FRT- I think TEAM has much better speakers than Orrin, but I get your point.

  368. James McKay permalink
    April 27, 2015 12:34 pm

    I want to start out by saying that the point of my post is to post some personal facts and experiences and I do not want to attack anyone’s point of view.
    I appreciate everyone’s input to this blog and I hope that my post is appreciated as well, even if it doesn’t agree with everyone’s ideology.

    I am assuming some of you (not all of you) are unhappy because you did not see the results that you wanted from this business, or you saw some results, but Orrin (or some other leader) made a decision that you didn’t agree with. I think this is bound to happen. I don’t think that anyone can stop this from happening. I believe that if there is a large group of people, then you will have differences in opinions, and that should be a good thing. Wouldn’t you agree?

    It is also important to take other people’s ideas and opinions into consideration as long as they “bare fruit on the tree” in the field being discussed. I do not know any of you personally, so I can not comment on any personal successes you may have. I have noticed that most of you are anonymous, and you have the right to stay that way, but I am not able to support anonymous “fruit” because I can not see if it is good or bad. I am not trying to hurt anyone’s feelings or discredit anyone with that statement, but I do not know what credentials you have. However, I do realize that some of you might take offense to that, and I apologize if you do. It is not my intention.

    For someone who doesn’t agree with this post, they can say the same thing about me. Not that I am anonymous, but that they don’t know me personally or know what “fruit I might bare” on a subject. I can tell you that you might not be able to find out a whole lot about me online, because I am not a public figure. I can also say that I am not someone who is perfect or better than anyone of you, in any shape or form. However, I try to improve myself everyday and the material I have been exposed to over the past year has helped me tremendously. Probably the two biggest areas would be in finances and relationships.

    Some might say that people can get results in those areas without being a part of Life Leadership and I agree wholeheartedly. However, I do not think that I would have been one of those people. I definitely needed, and still need, that constant support and positivity of the community to keep me on track.

    I am not surprised that there are people that went into debt for this business and then decided to stop pursuing this business. I don’t know their situation, but I do know that I have learned a lot from the financial books/audios and from meeting with my coaches/mentors. The most important thing I did after learning these financial principles was applying them into my life. I have been able to pay off over $15,000 in debt in the last 6 months and I have zero credit card debit now. I have a ways to go before I am debt free, but I am working towards it every day. The whole process is simple, but it is difficult at times.
    (I’m sure many of you have heard this phrase before, but I will say it anyway.)
    If it was easy, then everyone would do it.

    I love that I can give my friends and family this same opportunity to fix their relationships/finances. However, they have to choose to apply the principles to their unique situation because it is not going to be the exact same as mine. In addition to that, I really like that they have the option to help their family/friends. They can choose to create an income from this, or just help others by referring them to the products. They can even get their material for free by doing that enough.

    As long as a person’s intentions are good I see no problem with making money while helping others. Actually, I think that should be the preferred way to make money. However, like in any profession, there are people who have good and bad intentions. Like the medical field, there are doctors that have good intentions and others that have bad intentions. I am benefiting from the material that Life Leadership is offering, and so are my customers. I have received nothing but good reviews from my customers and they are ordering more material and referring others to me as well.

    In summary, the one thing I want to end with is to “check the fruit on the tree” of whoever you choose to follow. I don’t want you to judge the whole Life Leadership business on my “fruit,” because I don’t have much compared to others in Life Leadership. However, I am learning from them and they are personally helping me grow everyday. I have never received this much help from anyone else before, and I look forward to the day when I can help someone else improve their life.

    I know some of you will pick out pieces of this post to critique and I am ok with that. I just want everyone to know about my Life Leadership experience since most of this blog only talks about people’s negative experience with Life Leadership.

    God bless,

  369. noteam permalink
    April 28, 2015 6:48 am

    James, While I am happy for your experience if it is true. The vast majority of us had a much closer inside look into the workings of this crew. We were there behind closed doors. We saw what really went on. We saw leaders who had the deal changed on them. Read the policies & Proceedures of LIFE yourself. They have the right to take your business away from you at any point for any reason the Policy Council deems necessary, including for the actions of your spouse.

    We saw the hypocrisy of things being said on stage that were in direct opposite to the actions of these unethical leaders. We saw the churning of tools, constantly changing labels so everyone would have to load up and buy the same material with a different label.

    We saw the lies & deceit when Orrin was terminated from Quixtar for numerous rules violations. We saw how he tried to spin the story to make himself the hero. We saw as he denied time after time that he ever had any goal to start his own business. Then we also saw a post on his own blog a couple month ago in which he admitted that he in fact had plans under way while in Quixtar. Can we say perjury!!!!!!

    We saw as countless thousands of people lost thousands of dollars due to this scam. We saw lie after lie being told on stage as people were led to believe that the leaders were making all their profits from Quixtar & MonaVie, only to realize once we got to leadership positions that it was all a lie. The profits were from the tools.

    And everytime the lies caught up to them, in order to avoid the negative, the same gameplan was used……ReBrand! Amway…..Quixtar…..Team of Destiny…….Team MonaVie…. TEAM……Team Training……LIFE……Life Training

    Same story, just a different groups of pawns each time. Most of whom have no idea that the overwhelming majority of these guys built their real teams 15 years ago as they try to convince everyone else that this “new business” just started within the past few years.

    This is some of the most unethical men we have ever personally met in our lives. They should be in jail.

  370. freedomhaha permalink
    April 28, 2015 9:56 am

    James McKay- What percentage of people in your business make a profit?

  371. James McKay permalink
    April 30, 2015 7:19 am

    Hey guys,

    Thank you for your kind responses.

    noteam – I was not around for anything other than Life, so I think you can agree that I can’t shed any light on previous teams. What I can say is that I am very grateful for the people, in Life, that have helped me with finances and my relationship with my fiance because no one else has helped me in those areas. Since I have joined, I have started attending church again and reading the bible (I still need to get better at reading it more though). I have even started tithing again! I never thought I could “afford” to give 10% of my current income away. I just needed to make it a priority and I my brain found a solution.
    Also, I am not surprised that they can take someone’s business away. This is a sore subject for many of you, so I apologize if what I say offends you or ticks you off.
    What I believe is that if someone is acting unbecoming of what Life Leadership stands for, then they should lose their privilege to be a part of this business. Other franchisors have the same right to take the business away from franchisees.

    freedomhaha – 0%
    I do not have a big business, I’m not even on the bonus chart yet. That being said, I am an example of someone in the business who wasn’t committed. I am also a perfect example of “your pay becomes effective as soon as you do,” because I didn’t start to put forth much effort and perform until about 5 months ago. I proved that the speakers were correct in saying that you just sign up and make money by doing nothing. You can only make money if you work for it.
    5 months ago I decided to take my finances and my Life business seriously. Since then, I have been able to pay off all of that debt and increase my Life income every month since (even if only slightly some months).
    My point I want to make with this response is that this business is NOT a “get rich quick and easy” concept. I also want to mention that I am not, and should not, be the example of what will happen to someone who gets started with Life Leadership. People can get results way faster than me. They can also pass me and have more success than me. A perfect example of this would be of the Haitian that was enrolled 5 months ago and hit the leader rank in under 3 months (I think 9 weeks). Currently, that is an income of about $3,500/month. I can guarantee he outworked me.

    I know success with Life Leadership is possible. I’ve been around long enough to see people do it. I don’t know how you define “success” for yourself. I use to only think that making a lot of money was being successful, and their isn’t anything wrong with thinking that, as long as your heart is in the right place. Don’t get me wrong, money does help A LOT, but now I realize that it’s not the only thing you should look at. My Priorities have become more clear and Life Leadership is helping me obtain my own “success.” Now I just need to continually step out of my comfort zone and put forth the effort to earn my success.

    I hope this long response makes sense to you all. Just remember,
    “Success is not final, failure is not fatal: it is the courage to continue that counts.”
    – Winston Churchill

    God bless,

  372. freedomhaha permalink
    April 30, 2015 10:35 am

    James McKay- Thank you for the response. The point you are missing is that you can work as hard as you want, but you can’t change a ratio. The LIFE business requires X number of people for one person to profit. That analysis is found on this website somewhere and was done by people that are much smarter than myself. The last time I checked over 98% of people in LIFE were losing money. It doesn’t matter if it does grow to 1,000,000 people because the ratio would be the same as it would be at 98%.

    My interest in self improvement was also sparked by being in Orrin Woodward’s TEAM. However, I realized that I could find that information other places at a much lower rate. Since leaving TEAM in debt I have now purchased a car with cash and live debt free. The best part of that is I have now worked to repair the relationships that were severely hurt from TEAM.

    James I just ask you to think critically about about the business and take the advice from the people on here who reached ranks that you can only dream about working with Orrin.


  373. Former Round Table permalink
    May 1, 2015 5:15 am

    James McKay,

    The problem with the Life business is that it is based on a lie, plain and simple. I was one of the very few who did well enough to actually earn six figures annually with Team, the iteration before Life. My spouse and I spoke at seminars every month,we spoke at an Open Meeting every week, and we were featured on countless CDs. Orrin and Laurie Woodward were our “best” friends. So you could say that all our hard work paid off, in our case.

    So why did we quit? Why would we walk away from a six figure income and our best friends and the best business model ever? Why would we leave the people that brought us to Christ?

    Because, Mr. McKay, what you see from stage and what you hear on CD is NOT who these people really are. They are liars. The recognition, in too many cases, is not real–it is fake.

    Friendships and relationships are only tools to build more income and are not based on true affection or respect. Orrin is a master at manipulating people and the truth to benefit himself and his favorites. (And those favorites can change without notice, so don’t think you have any security there.) These people will lie to destroy marriages, families, and churches to get what they want or just out of spite.

    Fortunately for my spouse and I, we had other options and decided we could not perpetrate a lie, nor could we remain part of something so vilely corrupt. We are still shocked at how many people near the top, who know the truth, have stayed.

    I feel sorry for you Mr. McKay, because the siren song of the Life business is sweet, but the consequences are dire. You either become one of the liars, or you are one of the dupes.

  374. Former Round Table permalink
    May 1, 2015 5:32 am

    James McKay,

    Having said all of that, I am confident you will stay with the Life business, regardless of what anyone outside tells you. Most do. Good luck to you.

  375. Rascal Teamster permalink
    May 1, 2015 6:50 am

    James, I hear what you’re saying…felt the same way. Started with Team in 2006. Left the summer of 2012. The message the Team preaches sounds great, and at its core, it is a good message. The problem is that the people in whom you have put your faith do not practice what they preach. As Former Roud Table pointed out, it doesn’t take being on a big leader’s inner circle for very long to figure that out.

    If you go through the Timeline on this website, I was in Mark Paul’s inner circle through the Darkangelo and Cullen bankruptcies. Ten days before Darkangelo declared bankruptcy, I had a new guy in his house at a house plan with Mark Paul and Bill Lewis pumping Joe up like he was a financial business genius. These men can play the game…so well…we didn’t know of the bankruptcies until they were posted here.

    Some time later, Mark Paul told me in a phone call that he had no idea Joe was in trouble, that they “never talked about Joe’s finances.” Any way you answer that, Mark Paul comes up a little short on the leadership measuring stick.

    You’ll notice when questioned about this, Teamers will talk about the troubling financial times that was the separation from Quixtar….and it’s true. But for some reason, they overlook the lies and deceitful actions of the leaders during that time…as if the troubled times gives them a pass on the character test. I assure you, as a seasoned business owner of 32 years in the 95% world, character matters long time.

    The Bible says that it is wrong for a Christian to shackle themselves to a non believer. I would also suggest never playing poker with a dishonest man. You are being gamed by masters of the shell game.

    Go back and read the stories of Former Round Table, Melanie Morgan, and Raquell Peters. You will find consistent patterns in their posts. Whiners bitch about everything. People with experience come with stories. You will find it uncanny how their cross line stories fit together like pieces of a puzzle.

    James, don’t you find it odd that the time that Morgan’s and Peters were “forced” out was the same time that Former Round Table, Pastor Dickie, CEO Bobby Dickie, and Matt and Cheryl Abraham all left claiming claiming the Team was bad from the top down? Oh I might add that Orrin and the Team left Pastor Dickies church at that time.

    I’ve always found it odd that a pastor who Orrin credits as brining him to Christ renounced his trust in Orrin, and the Team sided with Orrin.

    James, how bad does a man have to be for his pastor to publicly speak against him in a church service? I don’t think I’ve ever heard of that before or since. Have you?

    Good luck, James. I am going to give you some business advice that the Team would say is stupid, but it is a rule of business. Always have an exit strategy and always leave yourself options.

    Great post Former Round Table. You brought me up out of my seat just like you used to from stage. Thanks for all you do.

  376. James McKay permalink
    May 1, 2015 9:13 am

    I just want to start out with the reminder that will only talk about Life Leadership and what we have done since the time that I have joined because I do not believe it is wise for a person to talk on topics/subjects that they were not directly involved in. I also want to say that I have the utmost respect for my upline and the leaders/speakers that are a part of this business.

    I was not involved with any of the broken relationships from past experiences and I am not going make a decision based on things that I have heard. You might think this is a weird example, but just because someone dislikes their ex-girlfriend/boyfriend, doesn’t mean that everyone should dislike them too. Now, obviously there were/are disagreements between people (just like in most broken relationships), and I appreciate that you are trying to save people from feeling the same hurt that you have felt. However, I prefer to make my own experiences with those “ex’s” and come to my own conclusions based on those experiences. Obviously you might not agree with me because the reason you start blogs like this are too educate readers on your (and other people’s) experiences so that they can come to a conclusion based on your experiences. If someone wants to make their decision that way, then I won’t stop them. We just have different thought processes, and I wanted to make a note of that.

    I agree with your comment, freedomhaha, about what it takes to make a profit with this business because, like any other business, someone has to pay somewhere. Whether it is making a profit by selling cars, gas, food, books or information, you can’t and shouldn’t expect everyone who buys that product to make money from reading the book, driving the car, or eating the food, etc. However, they bought the product because they wanted the non-income gain that the product had to offer.

    Someone might want a new car because they need it to travel long distances, and others might want it because last years model is “too old” haha. Books offer people the chance to learn and expand their knowledge/education. I think you get the point.

    The reason I wanted to type those examples out is because I want people to realize that, like other businesses, you can’t make a profit without selling to customers. The cool thing about Life Leadership is that it offers the customers a chance to make a stream of income (if that’s what they want) by allowing them to sell the product. Otherwise they can just purchase the life changing information (development information) because they want the non-income benefit that it can give them.
    There are definitely people that are only interested in being a customer, but a bunch of people would love to make a secondary income as well. A good example of this would be the new financial matrix messaging. Customers can buy our financial fitness pack and apply the principles, and depending on how much debt they have, they might be able to pay it off in 15-20 years. If that same customer chooses to become a member, that time could be cut down to a 2-5 year plan as long as the member applies the financial principles AND actively builds the business by get a solid foundation of customers because that is the only way to make money in anything.

    I really like this business because I don’t have to be an expert at anything in order to get started in this business. I can learn everything I need to know about personally developing myself from the products that we offer (could be considered “theoretical learning”). I also have the OPTION to buy training material on how to help make my business more successful AND my favorite part is that I can talk to my coaches and mentors about personal or professional matters and they help me find where I need adjustments (could be considered “actual learning”, for applying the theoretical to real-life applications).

    I would just like to end this post by going back to my comment about “a bunch of people would love to make a secondary income as well.”
    Just because someone chooses to become a member and learn from our material, doesn’t mean that they will make a profit. They have to put the time and effort into finding people that want top buy our material from them. I think you all know that just like any other business, the members of Life Leadership can only make a profit if they sell product. So if a member of Life Leadership doesn’t sell product, then they won’t make a profit.

    Also, since there will always be a few people that researching Life Leadership online, I would not be surprised if they read this post. If that’s the case for you, I just want to say that I hope what I described above makes sense to you. I am an engineer and I do not, and still do not, want to work in “sales.” However, I enjoy this because the culture of this company is to make a positive difference in people’s lives, teach you to use the money you earn as a tool for good, and have as much fun as you can along the way.

    Whatever you decide to do, I wish you luck. If you do decide to pursue this opportunity just know that this is not “something for nothing.” It takes work, but the cool thing that I have found is that this business offers the most help to members, like you and me, than any other business that I know of.

    Former Round Table, I do appreciate your concern for me, but just know that I do not think I am a dupe for understanding that it takes customers to make a profit. I also appreciate your concern with me becoming a liar. I do not wish to become a liar. I do not think that I have lied with anything I typed so far, and I don’t see why I would tell someone anything different from what I just typed.

    Thank you for the calm responses everyone.

    God bless,

    “Nothing ever comes to one, that is worth having, except as a result of hard work.”
    – Booker T. Washington

  377. Former Round Table permalink
    May 1, 2015 11:09 am

    “Can an Ethiopian change his skin or a leopard its spots? Neither can you do good who are accustomed to doing evil.”
    -Jeremiah 13:23

    “Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.”
    -George Santayana

  378. Rascal Teamster permalink
    May 1, 2015 11:36 am

    James, I appreciate the exchange of ideas and concepts here. Thank you for posting.

    I would like to take you to task a little on one of your examples. I realize I am not going to change your mind, and that’s OK with me. Someone may read this in the future. You said this, and I disagree with it, because you took it out of context.

    “You might think this is a weird example, but just because someone dislikes their ex-girlfriend/boyfriend, doesn’t mean that everyone should dislike them too.”

    We’re not talking about a disliking of someone. They are being accused of criminal activity and the manipulation of their business partners.

    If we found out through the news, from a friend, read it countless times that in the past the ex-girlfriend was a liar, a cheat, and a manipulator, I would say, “yes,” that person is damaged goods. I suppose it’s ok to like them, but If you trust them, do so at your own risk.

    You will always be told that Mark and Jenn Paul are the sponsor of Mike Gowen and the Warriors team. Truth is it wasn’t always that way. There was a really nice couple in Quixtar who sponsored the Gowens. They slunk into the shadows and disappeared without a fight when Mark and Jenn put themselves down as the personal sponsors of Gowen’s when we joined Monavie. That entire team was stolen. One minute you’re the sponsor of a huge team, and the next minute it’s gone, and you can’t do anything about it.

    What you are basically saying is that past character flaws like these don’t matter, because they happened before your involvement. That none of this matters. But it does. These are the same leaders.

    Just keep a watchful eye on the recognition you see paraded before you on stage and the real results of your business partners. Always amazed me the number of Band Of Brothers that would cross the stage as power players every month compared to how few actually make Round Table.

    My former upline is still in, was struggling to get back to turbo 25 when I got out three years ago and is still struggling to get back to it today. He is personally mentored by Mark Paul. There have been countless power players and double power players recognized in his team since then. Why no real results? You be the judge.

    And please, please be able to separate the fact from friction. Businesses make money…period. You may gain leadership knowledge and improve your life, but that comes from your learning and training. That leadership you learn is not a business result. It’s a result of your business training. The result of a business is profit. Learn to separate those.

    Good luck, man.

  379. Mike Collins permalink
    May 1, 2015 1:20 pm

    Horseshit….complete horseshit

  380. Melanie Morgan permalink
    May 1, 2015 4:24 pm

    James McKay~

    Thanks for sharing and see you are doing your best to be cordial here. I appreciate your intentions are to be honest , not offensive, etc Interesting you have come to this site and want only to talk about LIFE even when you have shared freely your opinions and assumptions about those on here and their experience outside of LIFE? But Ok got it and that is SUPER because I have many questions about LIFE!

    Here is a few to start. I have a feeling your stated intention about the potential ‘prospect’ or read here and for you to promote LIFE can learn something from these questions also. I wouldn’t doubt if they don’t have some of the same. Win/Win 🙂

    Hope they will ask a few themselves. I know you are completely convinced the LIFE business and mentors etc have done something no one else apparently could do for you so I have no doubt you will be excited to share.

    1) How does the LIFE business not only teach but most importantly ‘practice’, define, and keep track of “customers?” Are their and your customers for that matter placed anywhere in your leg(s) or line of sponsorship?

    2) You mention you have been a ‘member’ for a year but just got serious about ‘your business’ about 5 months ago and have managed to pay off 15.000 in debt? Did I get that right.. where you give all the credit to the mentorship and LIFE materials? Can you share exactly how you came up with 15000 cash or what you did to pay off that debt, and how the LIFE mentors are deserving of that credit? 🙂

    3) How many subscriptions do you have monthly from LIFE and what is your total cost for them?

    4) What rank do you hold every month?

    5) Does LIFE have a 2014 or even 2015 “Income Disclosure Statement”, do they hand one out to every prospect when showing the plan?

    6) What do they call their “profit-sharing business”, in other words when someone signs up as a member in LIFE do they earn profit sharing from TEAM (or a separate business plan that isn’t LIFE?) Do you and they show that in the Plan? How do you qualify for “profit-sharing”?

    7) Have you heard of anyone or have you been given any special deals? What I mean is can people shift people around in spots. given teams people etc.

    8) What happens to a person’s held ‘spot’ if they quit or let say your direct sponsor quits who becomes your sponsor?

    9) How many people have been put in your team since you started a year ago and how many have quit in that year? Does the team provide you with a document of the overall attrition rates? (people quitting)

    10) What was it that convinced you to get ‘started’ and how much did it cost?

    11) Were you told you must and or encouraged of the importance of reading the contract before you registered and did you read the contract you signed or do they still teach to slide it across the table and just have people sign it?


  381. Rascal Teamster permalink
    May 1, 2015 4:24 pm

    No way, Mike. You don’t get off that easy. Tell us what you really think.

    Is my response horseshit, or are you referring to James’ post?

    My Spidy sense tells me not to take James to seriously. Instead of saying, “good luck,” do you think I should have said, “run like hell while you still have a chance, brother?”

    What’s on your mind, Mike?

  382. Melanie Morgan permalink
    May 1, 2015 4:31 pm

    Oh sorry, one last question for now.

    LIFE has a “credit card”?!

    What is the heavy “promotion” and how are they telling the followers to use it? Who do they ‘advise’ to and want using the LIFE credit card? Where kind of card is it and what is the interest rate?

    Do you have one?

  383. noteam permalink
    May 3, 2015 4:12 pm

    James – You are the very type of person Orrin & Crew love……Claiming exemption from all the deceit and lies because “I’ve only been in since the LIFE business.” That’s exactly why they keep renaming the business every couple of years. To try and create a wall between what happened in the past and them. Unfortunately, the same lies & deception have happened in each business which creates the need to re-brand again every few years. It’s been the same business with the same crooked people since the early 90’s. You are not in a “new” business. You have a different label. But the leaders at the top all made their money back in Amway in the 90’s.

  384. May 3, 2015 5:40 pm

    Rascal Teamster… You gave some background information on Pastor Dickie that I hadn’t read before from any source. It actually gave ‘the business’ some credibility, spiritually speaking, that was boasted about by a family member that was involved in TeamLife. We never really heard what all transpired with the Dickies distancing themselves from Orrin and the Team. Is that story written about somewhere here on Amthrax? Or can some other person on this site share? I actually contacted his church about our concerns with no response. He has obviously moved on from this time of his life. Would appreciate hearing from any of you on this. Thanks!

  385. Rascal Teamster permalink
    May 4, 2015 6:22 am


    I was never a member of Berean, but a lot of my teammates were members. My upline Round Table was on the leadership team, and some of what happened is posted within this site. It will be comments here and comments there, and you’ll have to piece a lot of it together. There are members here who were members of Berean, but this is a subject that is rarely talked about. No one wants to bring Pastor Dickie into this.

    I know that there were “reconciliation” meetings between Orrin and Pastor and many high level Team members that could never be reconciled. I have heard from people whom were present that Pastor stood before the church and announced this fact. Almost everyone left at that time.

    The Paul’s stayed around for a while. Mark was in a leadership position at the time. Something else happened with them, and they left. I didn’t even realize they were gone till almost a year after they were gone, and I used to mentor with Mark on spiritually issues. My wife and I were guests of theirs at a Sunday service and met Pastor.

    I feel like I opened up a can of worms here that I didn’t really want to open, because there are a lot of people on both sides who would like to bury this whole discussion. I apologize for that.

    I can not think of any beneficial reason why the Dickies, Freeze’s, Abrahams, Paul’s, Woodward’s, or anyone else would address this subject, other than that it would answer a whole lot of questions for a whole lot of us. LOL..,I was told when I realized that Pasor hadn’t been to the second major that he retired from speaking at Team functions for health reasons. Didn’t even dawn on me that there were no prayer requests, no mentions of it anywhere, and no one talked about it.

    Good grief, I am only a couple hours away, my upline was in leadership, and yet I still knew nothing about it till almost a year later. How eerie is that?

    Sorry I couldn’t be of more help, but maybe someone else will chime in. Don’t hold your breath, though.

  386. Out in PA permalink
    May 4, 2015 11:27 am

    Out in PA

    JEmily52 and Rascal Teamster,

    Probably nearly three years ago now I called Pastor Dickie’s church and left a voice mail for him to please call me at his convenience about what was then called TEAM and why he was no longer involved with them. It was at a time when so many red flags were going up and I chose to disassociate with everyone involved in this thing. About three weeks passed and I had just about given up on hearing from him when I got a voice mail left for me from one of his assistant pastors. He said Pastor Dickie was on a trip to England and that they were receiving a large volume of phone calls regarding this subject and that Pastor Dickie had chosen not to take any calls. Here is what this assistant pastor said in his voice mail to me and I quote “Go to the pastor of your church, whatever faith that may be, and ask what are the teachings of your faith regarding money, greed, and the worship of false idols and false Gods.” That was all I needed to hear and confirmed all and any suspicions I had. I have not posted here in quite a while and check in every now and then. Anyone considering getting involved with these people PLEASE do your due diligence because this organization has cost me great personal loss.

  387. freedomhaha permalink
    May 4, 2015 4:54 pm

    Out in PA- I would assume the worship of false gods includes Orrin, Chris, and Tim right??

  388. noteam permalink
    May 4, 2015 6:22 pm

    Pastor Dickie did a GREAT message regarding greed, pride and the love of money shortly after this time. I believe it is still somewhere out in YouTube land. But I agree. Pastor is wanting to keep the focus on The Lord and off of the evils of TEAM/LIFE. Also, just my opinion. But I’d be willing to bet Orrin & crew threatened Pastor with a lawsuit if he spoke of all he knows regarding the lack of ethics of these jerks. They will try and intimidate anyone. And with all that pastor knows about what goes on behind the scenes, I could picture them threatening him. (Just my opinion)

  389. Melanie Morgan permalink
    May 4, 2015 7:40 pm

    James you still there… reading? If you’re checking with your upline, to get the answers to my questions…no problem, I expect it.

    I am sure you ‘check in’ quite frequently, that’s if you earned it and they don’t have anyone else that is outbuilding you. Perhaps they check on you daily?

    Well that is if your first recruiting a lot more people to make your upline notice, especially if you have influence with others and are “sponsoring up”. You said you serious now, so then you must be ‘all in’? you know… buying everything subscription possible and going to everything, no excuses to miss a thing, right?…If your upline didn’t notice you before you weren’t taking it serious, don’t worry they are watching.. and once you start recruiting/sponsoring and putting in people you won’t be able to keep them from ‘helping’ you, they will gladly come in…and build a fire wall. 🙂

    Trust me I understand, if you are not out there night after night after night, building and replacing faster than people can quit….well, you know “payin the price, to live life nice.”, then you be just treatin your business like a hobby.

    I was looking forward to the same quick responses you gave others but No worries, I’ll check back. Looking forward to getting some honest answers to my questions. Thanks.

  390. Melanie Morgan permalink
    May 4, 2015 9:59 pm

    Rascal Teamster & No team ~

    I believe you are right, there are few spread out comments from some who have shared a direct experience and I believe if my memory serves me, was the final straw, for them. It was directly related to the many lies that were being told about Pastor, his family, and church. But hindsight, and like all things and people they just ‘use’ as something to gain unquestioning ‘trust’ , and credibility . Amazing isn’t it, makes one Shake their head at how much damage greed can cause.

    Orrin and gang, and I mean gang will turn on people including their own “best friends”, church and Pastor after years of claiming Pastor was his “mentor”, and attending the church. It begs the question, not from any follower I assure you, but if all of what Orrin and gang have given is returned to them, how do you think they would respond? “Put the shoe on the other foot”, give them the same treatment, decide they shouldn’t get paid, let someone else control the pay formula etc…. ponder that.

    This is the question I have to ask.. Does Orrin think he owns all people who were affiliated with TEAM? In other words because someone brought them into the team “business” and they decided to attend Pastor Dickies church, would it be he thinks he owns them and should raid them all when he decides he wants to leave and won’t reconcile, unless on his terms as always? It’s Orrin’s way or the highway, no secret there. Another question, if so many people left Pastor church’s that were on the team, were they attending church to worship God or some other god? Naturally, Pastor being a very visual, respected and trusted man, who was very public with the team and then as I believe Rascal said, nailed it, not a prayer request or any public mention of his disappearance, other than the lies of course people were hearing.

    So regardless, it doesn’t take a whole lot of common sense because if one stops long enough to think, and reads this site, they could see the preponderance of evidence is overwhelming. The thug behavior, damaged relationships, financial ruin in cases, divisions in other churches too, bankruptcies, divorce in other cases (because the marriage was being ripped apart, with not time, and financially going broke and then one spouse choose TEAM and they were even a profit sharer, over their marriage). Imagine, marriages falling apart in TEAM…no, no, no I refuse to believe…no time, no money=being part of the TEAM, makes for a major strain on all areas of your life, it is so crazy to me know, how the ‘group think’ controls..and to continue to read the followers comments from any MLM for that matter is completely disturbing. They clearly have lost their ability to use their own language and thoughts.

    So Pastor Dickie and his family, with all do respect and I never take lightly the personal damage caused, but one could conclude it is yet another of thousands of people, but is a Pastor, family, and his church that had the unfortunate experience as many, many others have. The details might differ slightly but overall, it’s the same destruction and all have left, Orrin and his gang.That can of worms had already been opened.

    Orrin and gang made many selfish and bad choices, although we have all heard what a hero he is…but out of desperation it was to keep their own $$ and lifestyle. They can spin it however they like but to remain in denial of all the lost and damaged relationships they created, will forever echo and it doesn’t matter how they justify or deny, eventually you run out of places to hide from your self and always a price, I am not talking money. They lied to and sacrificed thousands and thousands of people, and their choice is to ignore, deny, twist, criticize, attack, throw their name calling, hate stones, to justify their means, it is ok, they know and many others know what they did. Lost some of the ‘best friends’ who were top leaders who know and have anything to do with them again. And worse, Orrin and gang lost all their respect.

    No team!~

    It takes very little effort to google….Most all MLM including Orrin and gang, is to sue who they call their ‘friends’ who they want to throw a slap or bully oops, I meant ‘critic’, but really anyone, ask Orrin about Scott Larson, Amthrax, the Peters?….It is common practice, their M.O. to financially ruin or whatever it takes but ruin, anyone who they target as their ‘enemy’ and ultimately silence and scrub the history forever, because it will hide the truth!

  391. freedomhaha permalink
    May 5, 2015 5:28 am

    Melanie- Brillant post!

    Everyone- Does anyone know if they TEAM is still making CDs? If they are that is laughable in 2015. My new car (purchased with cash since being FREE of TEAM!!) does not even have a CD player. It would have been nice if TEAM would have stayed in the 90’s as well.

  392. Rascal Teamster permalink
    May 5, 2015 6:12 am


    Weird that you bring that up. I just talked with a guy I haven’t seen in a long time. From what I’ve been told Team does have downloads. You can download all the monthly regurgitated CDs.

    Some of you are old enough to remember when Orrin stood on stage and talked about the day when you would have the ability to download CDs for a fraction of the cost….”heck, we could even do it for free.” Well that was when Team was going to be a product based business….the Walmart of the Internet. But now that they are an information based business, they can’t do that. It’s their main profit center. You can get your Team CDs the moment they get released for the same monthly subscription price. You are paying for the subscription…not the delivery method. Brilliant, eh?

    And then let us not forget Team Radio where for the paltry price of $25 a month you can listen to your favorite Team gurus 24/7.

    So yes, Freedom, download away, brother.

    For all you wondering about when a new Team IDS will be released, stop wasting your time. You won’t see one again. They use an Income Rate Estimate. Shows estimated income at each level, but no longer gives the info at how many are at each level.

  393. freedomhaha permalink
    May 5, 2015 7:53 am

    Rascal- The amount of money this sends into their pockets is staggering. Thanks for the info! I am still trying to help a few friends that have been stuck inside since I left TEAM in 2011.

    Also, isn’t an IDS required by law? This seems like a shady way to get out of that. The problem was never how much you made at each level the problem was always how few people were there!

  394. Rascal Teamster permalink
    May 5, 2015 8:55 am


    An IDS is not required by law, but it gives you the ability (according to Monavie) to discuss incomes. I never looked into it, but figured if Monavie was teaching that this was how to stay out of trouble with income claims, they were probably right.

  395. Out in Pa permalink
    May 5, 2015 1:15 pm


    Spot on about the worship of false Gods! Not only the worship of these false leaders but go to the website of one of the Pa teams You will see pictures of cars, boats, Rhino Island, homes, and jewelry. They have meetings at some of these fancy homes to portray the image of “you too can have this”. And some of these same people are on the verge of personal bankruptcy, I know that for a fact, and are morally bankrupt as well.
    It is a business built in a “pit of quicksand” with no foundation and the worship of the “worldly” and “material”. There is no true happiness found there and the striving for more and more stuff. I have a very good friend who is a retired pastor who recently said to me
    “when is the last time you saw a funeral procession on the way to the cemetery with a
    U-Haul trailer attached to the hearse?” Very wise words indeed. All of this is my experience and my opinion of course.

  396. Rascal Teamster permalink
    May 5, 2015 1:32 pm


    You will be delighted to know that these financial wizards are about to rescue the World and save the planet from financial disaster.

    They are about to start leading the plan by working the finances side. If you are more interested in saving money, they will hit you with a first night pack geared toward the savings side of the business. If you are more interested in making money, they will hit you with a first night pack on the business side of financial bliss.

    That’s twice as many first night packs, twice as many expenses, and twice the fun 😉 This revamp has got to be The One, right?

    One of the new packs hasn’t even launched yet. Next month or so.

  397. Rascal Teamster permalink
    May 5, 2015 1:41 pm

    It does seem to be a pretty bold move having a bunch of untrained financial planners running around “saving” people, isn’t it?

    It’s one thing to claim potential financial benefits to your MLM, but to base your business on financial results, sounds a little risky.

    If the Teamsters start making financial results guarantees, they could really step on a land mine.

  398. Out in Pa permalink
    May 5, 2015 2:29 pm

    Rascal Teamster,

    Of course…saving money through their principle of “delayed gratification”…that term makes me want to throw up! See they tell you to cut out TV cable, going to movies, going to dinner, buying music, renting movies, going to concerts, buying a daily cup of coffee, don’t go on vacation, etc. etc. etc.etc. Yes, in theory, this is a good principle if you are trying to get out of debt or save money for college or any number of things. But then when you go to an event the first place they want to take you is to the “tool room” and you must buy multiples of everything to give out to people to recruit them into the business. “If you are serious about building this business you have to have a tool trunk”! Thousands of credit card charges later you have that tool trunk from all that “delayed gratification”. And they leave out one little detail when signing up people for this “business opportunity”….the real money or profit sharing is in the sales of the tools and tickets to the events. And the only way you get in is to be voted in by the leaders to “director”. Which of course can be taken away from you at any time for any reason because you do not own anything!!! There is so much deception but I know one day there will be a judgement day and all the quoting of scripture will not help them then.

  399. Melanie Morgan permalink
    May 5, 2015 3:07 pm

    Rascal Teamster~

    “For all you wondering about when a new Team IDS will be released, stop wasting your time. You won’t see one again. They use an Income Rate Estimate. Shows estimated income at each level, but no longer gives the info at how many are at each level.”

    Thanks for bringing this up, because I am still waiting for James McKay to answer my questions! And hitting on the TEAM/LIFE IDS was the next big question.

    How many people are being paid in the pool, LIFE or is TEAM that pays the profit sharing? Is 200, 300, or even 500 total being paid, out of the what number of members?

    Isn’t Orrin claiming 100,000 members? Is the attrition 99,000 per year who are churned?

    They could provide the real data.. * remember Orrin prides himself as a “numbers guy” who “study the numbers every Monday morning”…That explains A lot to me now, especially looking back on the “profit sharing pay” when we were in and it became suspect. Also, he supposedly had those amazing bench marking skills.

    So, for the followers…Do you wonder, where is the “transparency” the leaders gloat and shouldn’t you know how great LIFE is at producing profitable business, what about providing the financial freedom and the “life you always wanted to live”?…because LIFE has the answers, go show the plan!

    Undoubtedly they have been convinced of Orrin and top gang ad nauseam as we were of their integrity and transparency.

    Sounds like they are getting less transparent with the IDS or profitable Lifers, they can provide real data, so why not show it, so what they gloat can be verified by their own numbers? Wonder if Mike Collins analysis inspired their new data or lack there of?

    Do you or anyone else no what the deal is with the “credit card?” Still waiting to hear from James, but maybe one of you can answer it. Thanks all!

  400. Melanie Morgan permalink
    May 5, 2015 8:39 pm

    Out in PA~

    Excellent! The mixed messages, double standards, and hypocrisy, are all so clear now and had we not experienced this ourselves…strictly controlled environment.. shut off from the real world,…tends to control, close, and screw with the mind,… just the way it is designed to do.

  401. I QUIT (AND GLAD I DID) permalink
    May 7, 2015 7:38 am

    I’ve often wondered when Orrin and Co. made the transition in their minds from follower to deceiver. When they first got started in the old Amway biz they truly believed in it as a legit business. When did they finally put the pieces together and figure out the “real” way the business worked. Was it just some type of ah ha moment or did a sit down with ol’ Dexter or someone else occur? Irregardless, at some point a shift in the thought process took them from “dupee” to “duper” and the whole thing just multiplied from there.

    Do they truly believe they are right and justified in all they do or are they just that dishonest? I wonder…

  402. Rascal Teamster permalink
    May 7, 2015 9:21 am

    I just received an email from Life Leadership. They made the Networking Times again. Title of the article is “Orrin Woodward: Escape the financial matrix.” His smiling face is on the cover.

    Have you guys seen O lately? OMG….he looks terrible. He must have gained at least 80lbs. Can anyone confirm this…..I believe that Life has changed the Fitness ‘F’ for the Food ‘F,’ and Orrin is the Food ‘F’ poster boy.

    Maybe his down line should recommend a CD for him…maybe “Lung Busters.”

  403. noteam permalink
    May 8, 2015 6:11 pm

    Anyone catch the article in Wednesday’s Salt Lake City Tribune about MonaVie being ‘foreclosed’ on for the $182 million note? Seems like Jeunesse is just buying the distributor force and my bet is they will eventually let the juice and ReVeal products be eliminated. From what I hear all MonaVie distributors are being encouraged to start promot

  404. noteam permalink
    May 8, 2015 6:13 pm

    All MonaVie distributors are being encouraged to start promoting Jeunesse skin care products and start de-emphasizing MonaVie’s line.

  405. May 9, 2015 8:18 pm

    Here is the link to the Salt Lake Tribune article:

  406. kilerb permalink
    May 10, 2015 6:58 am

    Out in PA I am wondering if you were affiliated with the group I was with .You hit a lot of points which are dead on . I am also amazed at how many people fall pray to life to this day. The main leader here in central Pa right when we merged with team had a senior pastor who went platinum in a quick time period due to his influence. But let me back up before this happened I dont know if you ever heard of Mark Gorman he would come in and speak at our conventions before we mergered. OW got rid of him after we merged anyway he got booked at this Baptist church to speak where this other Pastor lead through a platinum that went to this church and shortly after that event the pastor and a lot of his church were involved leading to his fast rise in team .Well our leader ship ( D Frey ) wanted to reproduce Pastor Dickie out here long story short Pastor loses congregation and job moves home to Ohio try’s selling cars then insurance and I have no clue what he and his family are doing now .Before this pastor got involved DF was on stage telling everyone how much of a wennie this guy was in leading people and so forth than all of of sudden this pastor is better than home made apple pie I wonder if it has anything to do with the $ that he made DF.
    PS Mike Collins do you want to finish our conversation from the news station blog that was shut down before I could commet on you leadership going to Italy. Mike like I said you are all high class welfare living off of middle class dreams .

  407. Mike Collins permalink
    May 10, 2015 10:55 am

    Kilerb: which mike collins are you addressing? The one from corona ca. or the thug from Chicago Vogel promised to hand his ass to if he showed up to attempt to follow through with his toothless threat?

  408. kilerb permalink
    May 10, 2015 11:13 am


  409. noteam permalink
    May 11, 2015 6:48 am

    Kilerb – Most of the PA group came from the Harteis Amway organization whose leaders hit the Diamond level in the Amway business in the late 70’s & 80’s. The peak of their organizations was in the 90’s, long before they teamed up with Orrin & crew. Yet they still lead the sheep to believe that their lifestyle is the result of TEAM/LIFE. I can’t believe that many people fall for it.

  410. kilerb permalink
    May 11, 2015 7:16 am

    noteam You are correct except there was one more to go diamond when I was in that group the Freys went mid 2000 it was announced in Harrisburg at a function I attended and yes they deny their past and let everyone think team life gave them successfully
    BTW I believe Fred Harties passed away after being booted out when Orrin took over his organization

  411. noteam permalink
    May 11, 2015 12:36 pm

    yes, Fred realized Orrin was a fraud just as everything was going down in June 2007. He pulled away from Orrin at the last minute, but it was too late. He had already edified Orrin to his group and Orrin had built relationships with Jerry, Dean & Teresa and one other Diamond who all went along with Orrin. So sad.

  412. Rascal Teamster permalink
    May 11, 2015 1:06 pm

    Whoa, hold all my calls….

    Noteam, are you saying that Fred got wise to Orrin and that is why he bailed?

    I remember he was part of the group that all left Amway and was part of the original Amway lawsuit. But all of a sudden we realized he had backed out of the lawsuit.

    When I asked my upline Round Table why Fred left, I was told that he was paid off by Amway (a sum of $200K was mentioned), and that Fred was a traitor to the cause.

    Are you saying that is totally untrue….that Fred had a conscience and got screwed for it….that Dean and Jerry both knew Fred’s issue and sided with Orrin anyway….that my upline round table lied to me…..again????

    LOL….that would never happen in Team, would it….that they would cause me to hate an innocent man? Say it ain’t so….

  413. Rascal Teamster permalink
    May 11, 2015 1:09 pm

    Before I get totally roasted for that, I do realize that any man who builds an Amway business to the level of Fred’s is quite possibly the furthest thing from an innocent man as there is.

  414. kilerb permalink
    May 11, 2015 1:52 pm

    their was other diamonds involved Brett Diamler who mentored Dean. Brett stayed with Fred I’m not sure what happened to Louie and Leslie Deacamp now Denny and Donna Smith and Greg and Lynn Johnson all followed Deans lead Fred duplicated what he was and his close henchmen went with Orrin When Orrin 1st came in he asked Fred who was on fire in his group and that was Dean so Orrin knew what he was doing from day one I couldn’t imagine Jerry screwing his own brother like he did and Dean being able to look in the mirror if you ever heard deans story about driving through the snow storm to get on a cruise he spent that cruise with Brett Daimler I guess he leaves that little detail out of his new life is a balance Cd also the free hunting trip on Fred’s 3000 acre ranch in Colorado with deans father in what I have seen Dean is the biggest creep in the PA group he went from being the bottom diamond to being on top of Fred’s organization

  415. kilerb permalink
    May 11, 2015 1:58 pm

    Just remember these are people of high standards exceptional character and proclaimed Christians

  416. freedomhaha permalink
    May 12, 2015 10:15 am

    “Just remember these are people of high standards exceptional character and proclaimed Christians”

    Isn’t it obvious from their actions? I am far from a perfect person, but the major difference is that I don’t pretend to be. The system that the TEAM has set up is that you can’t do anything but blow smoke about the person above you instead of having some accountability.

  417. January 22, 2016 8:27 am

    I’ve been reading your all of your posts and the only thing I can think of to say is, “Birds of a Feather flock together”

    I’m saddened to read the only thing you all you see LIFE Leadership is about is making money. Never mind the name of the business references Leadership. And we discuss personal & professional growth.

    It’s kind of similar to another group of people I am associated with (whom I am sure you will all claim is cultish, too: The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints). A lot of so-called Christians believe we don’t worship Jesus Christ (though, the name of our Church clearly states it).

    I am sorry to read a lot of you didn’t excel in the money-making aspect of the business. The IDS clearly lists the percentages of those who don’t make a profit. We are supposed to ensure everyone who see the presentation receives a copy. If someone gets missed, that’s clearly not the Company’s fault.

    We are told time and time again, this business isn’t easy. Or isn’t a get rich quick scheme. Our prospects are supposed to be told the same thing. I KNOW they get told that at our Open Meetings in St. Louis.

    As in all businesses there will need to be investments into your business that will need to be made (you can call them expenses, if you want). People are supposed to be told these things. Again, if someone gets missed that clearly not the Company’s fault. Again, I KNOW they get told that at our Open Meetings in St. Louis.

    My parents have owned a Oil & Lube shop for the last 10 years. They invest THOUSANDS into their business each month for Overhead costs. And yet are still struggling. Does that make them bad business owners. Perhaps, yes. But they love what they are doing! Does that make them “stupid” for running a business that isn’t making them the money they thought it would, I’m certainly not going to criticize someone for pursuing their passion in life even though they may not get rich from it.

    But enough of that….

    I didn’t join to ONLY make money. I joined LIFE Leadership to help make a difference in someone’s life. Help them improve themselves. I’ve personally seen marriages strengthened…all from the Information they’ve bought into. Could they have gotten this information free from the library. Sure. But they didn’t in the past. So why would they now? Cause it comes to them each month without them even thinking about it. But it just doesn’t stop there. Knowledge is useless without application. If someone is receiving books and audios and not actually reading or listening to them, how is that the fault of the Company or even Orrin Woodward? People have to accept responsibility for their own actions (or in actions).

    I’ve seen people people pay down/off their debt, even retire from their Nursing jobs to come home to take care of their children.

    And there is no amount of Investment high enough (or $$ pissed-out-in-the-wind, as you would probably say), to replace a Mother being able to quit her job and come home to raise her kids.

    I’m glad you have this site.

    I’m glad we have our site.

    Birds of a feather flock together!

  418. Kilerb permalink
    January 22, 2016 5:19 pm

    Mike do you realize everyone on this blog has traveled the road you are currently on . I personally have seen marriages torn apart due to the long term affects of your so called Im only in it to change other people’s lives business . Also if in the back of your mind your not involved for financial reasons your full of crap. As per your parents they are not involved in changing other people’s oil because they want to make sure their customers cars live long healthy lives . Their in business to make money but at least they sign their own paycheck . Who signs your paycheck for having a 2nd shift read this book out of my trunk job .
    Good luck with your ventures see you in about 3 years on the other side of the fence . Now go get motivated at your major where all the winners are at in I believe Louisville at least I hope your there .Monday is a big sales day after this weekend .

  419. Kilerb permalink
    January 22, 2016 5:25 pm

    Also you are right birds of a feather do flock together . Your so called leadership is a perfect example of your statement . They have been around for a long time finding suckers that are born every minute.

  420. Joseph permalink
    April 9, 2016 8:24 pm

    So are you now going to prove that inc. magazine is a scam or pryamaid scheme in some way?

    I want to see you pull something out of your negative,cynicism, everyone who is successful is lucky blah blah blah hat about this accolade. Oh and Chris Brady was on the same list as leadership and managment expert. Obvisouly they are the real deal. In the end who cares though cuz only those who are positive and uplift will win and you nameless faceless internet blogger are not going to be one of them.

    Joseph LaBlanc born in Las Vegas

  421. Mike collins permalink
    April 11, 2016 8:21 am

    Said the guy who isn’t making any money. I know you’re not making any money Joseph because the two or three people that are making money in this scam don’t have time to come and comment on this blog. They are too busy keeping lemmings like you buffaloed.
    Show me your check today and and show me your check in six months and let me know how your pursuit of financial independence through this ridiculous sham of a business is going.

  422. freedomhaha permalink
    April 11, 2016 9:29 am

    Joseph- These “nameless faceless” bloggers win every single time we can save someones finances and relationships by helping them avoid TEAM. I am thankful every singe day for the efforts of those in this community.

  423. exTEAMster permalink
    April 14, 2016 6:50 pm

    Mr. LeBlanc:

    I hate to pee on your parade, but when you take a look at how the (2-year-old) Inc. list was compiled, it’s pretty easy to see both how Orrin and Chris made the list, and the flaws in the ranking system.

    First, you’ll notice the list focuses on the most popular management and leadership “writers.” Well, the fact Orrin and Chris crank out books every few weeks, and have a built-in audience of customers to buy them no matter how good or bad the advice is (after all, what could be more important than reading about a ‘leader’s’ vacation in Italy) means both guys are going to be high on the list of book sellers.

    (And speaking of book sellers, let’s dial down the amazement at being a ‘New York Times’ best seller. You sell 10,000 books, you pretty much make the list. And LIFE’s near-mandatory purchasing base gets you to 10,000 books, no matter what’s in the pages. How else do you explain the sales of the books by Tim Marks and Claude Hamilton?)

    Most of the other rankings are based merely on how many times the individuals are mentioned on various blogs, google searches, etc. Well, as I’m sure is still the case, when I was in LIFE we were always notified of when Orrin, Chris, George, etc., had a new blog post and were told to promptly get online and click “LIKE” to drive the blogs higher on the search engines. Notice how every comment on these blogs is “Great job, (name of blog writer). Thanks for all you do. This is such valuable advice.”

    Never a question, never a comment like, “I agree with most of what you said, but I disagree with one point….” Always nothing but slurping adoration.

    It’s also worth noting that the rankings themselves have no insight into the individual mentioned. Just a link to their personal blogs or websites. So obviously, not a lot of deep thought went into this list or why someone was 9th vs. 12th. Just a list of what the data produced.

    Also, let’s consider who ranked lower than Brady….Malcolm Gladwell, Jim Collins, Dave Ramsey, Wayne Dyer, Bill Gates. Do you really think Orrin and Chris deserve more accolades than these guys? Shows how imperfect the system is. In fact, in the disclaimer at the end of the survey, it says the list is “imperfect measures from different imperfect sources.”

    By the way, if you read the comments following the story, you’ll see that other than the good disciples like Kirk Birtles going on and on about how great Orrin and Chris are and what a great list it is, most of the other business types are asking, “Who is Orrin Woodward? Who is Chris Brady?”

    Obviously, if I’m trying to convince some poor sap into coughing up $100-$300 a month to sign up for LIFE, I’m going to tout this list as often as I can. But let’s not call it a “drop the mic” moment.”

  424. April 15, 2016 8:36 am

    exTEAMster – There’s not much more that you can say than what you just did. Excellent retort and comment. I’ll let you have the last word and close comments on this post. Thanks for everyone’s participation in this discussion.


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